Scope recomendations in $15-20K range?

[jayk]

I'm looking for a scope in the $15-20K price range.  I'd like at least 1GHz BW, 4+ channels, 12 bits.  Tek has a promotion right now with the MSO44-1.5GHz coming in at $14K and the MSO46-1.5GHz at $16.5K, with options at half of list price.  I see the R&S MXO4-BNDL (1.5GHz) @ $20.5K.  The LeCroy Wavesurfer 4104HD is $13K with a bunch of options.  Keysight has some 10-bit models on their used site in this price range (even up to 2.5GHz or higher), although these don't include probes and I'm not sure about the option pricing.  I do a lot of embedded and RF work along with some power supplies and precision analog.  I played around with the MXO4 a bit at a trade show and the UI seemed a bit laggy though there wasn't an opportunity to make any real measurements - it does seem to have a ton of features, and there are some in-depth reviews on youtube.  I haven't used the Tek or Lecroy yet, but I'm seeing if there's a way to get one as a demo.  My trusty MSO6034A has been great going on 15 years, but these days the screen is seeming a little small for some reason. 

Anything else to consider in this range?

[tautech]

SDS6204A @~$10k might be right up your alley, albeit officially 8bit it offers an additional 8bits or ERES/Hires when/if needed. Nice 12" touch display too and fond of mine.
There's also a option bundle promo active for these.
https://siglentna.com/news-article/permanent-analysis-bundle-on-your-new-oscilloscope/

[2N3055]

PSU, analog work and embedded is done well with scope with less BW. It will be less noisy.
RF is done best with RF tools like SA.

Maybe you would be better served with that combination?
More detail would be needed.

Siglent has new SDS3000xHD that was just released for fraction of that budget and it leaves enough money to buy good SA...
That is 1GHz scope and a SA in your budget...

Or 200-500MHz scope and even better SA...

Also include probes (active) in the equation if you need them..

[Berni]

Something to consider is if you want to be using the scope as a daily driver or as a high performance beast that can do any task thrown at it.

A lot of the high end feature packed scopes come at a price of speed. I also have a MSO6034A and it is still my daily driver scope. The Agilent MSO9204H is rarely used because it is not as quick and intuitive to use and most of the time i don't need the extra performance. It is big, it is loud, it eats lots of power, it takes longer to boot, lots of menus are on touchscreen only...etc. So i tend to power it on only when i have a job that needs the GHz bandwidth or high resolution, or decoding some weird high speed bus that nothing else will decode.

So i found out it is sensible to have a simple, fast and reliable daily driver scope for all the simple tasks of "is this clock 25MHz?" or "is my LDO oscillating" then keep a separate big boy scope for when you need to dig deep down into some serious high speed timing issues.

Also keep in mind that in order to make use of the GHz levels of bandwidth you also need active probes. Yes you can buy 500MHz passive probes or even 1GHz probes. However all of these passive probes have too much capacitive loading to be useful in real life circuits above about 200MHz. Active probes solve this problem, however they can be very expensive and tend to be specific to a scope manufacturer, or even only usable only on a subset of scopes from a given manufacturer. So it is a good idea to look into what probing solutions are available for your next scope.

[Psi]

Yeah, once you hit like a $5-8k scope price it's more about what scope features do you actually require to do your job.
Spending more just to get a quality/high-performance instrument is usually not the best use of the money. (not saying you are doing this, just in general)
As stated above, really expensive scopes can be harder to use or slower. And quality doesn't change that much.
Sometimes a cleaner/simpler UI is nicer to use.

[metebalci]

I bought a scope from Keysight used store a few years ago and the bandwidth option had a reasonable discount if I remember well. If you like a model there, it is a good idea to ask for a quote with the options you want. I purchased passive and digital probes from other places, considering the price of the scope these are not expensive. If you will need active probes, that is going to be costly.

[egonotto]

Hello,

perhaps a 3 GHz Siglent SDS7304A H12?

Batronix has it with a free SDS7000A Optionsbundle

Best Regards
egonotto

[pdenisowski]

RF is done best with RF tools like SA.

True, but if you don't have the budget for both a scope and a spec an, then choosing a scope with a really good FFT implementation (like the MXO4) becomes important.

In addition, the ability to look at a signal in both the time and frequency domains is extremely helpful in many different applications: especially if you can set the spectrum parameters (center, span, etc.) independent of the time-domain settings.

[Domitronic]

I can tell you that the Tek MSO46 has a really slow and laggy user Interface. 6 channels are really nice to have but the UI is almost a dealbraker in my opinion.

Just now the MSO46B was released where Tek claims that speed of the UI has doubled. But i still wouldn't buy it without trying it at first.

[coppice]

I'm highly suspicious of people who start with a price, instead of a performance requirement. Stating a need, and asking if you can get that for a certain budget makes sense, but a mere price point is not a serious request.

[David Hess]

If I was planning to spend that much, then I would try to contact some representatives of the manufacturers to get some hands on experience.

My trusty MSO6034A has been great going on 15 years, but these days the screen is seeming a little small for some reason.

What about adding an external monitor to your MSO6034A.  Does it have a video output?

[Fungus]

I'm highly suspicious of people who start with a price, instead of a performance requirement. Stating a need, and asking if you can get that for a certain budget makes sense, but a mere price point is not a serious request.

Also no indication of what it's going to be used for.

[pdenisowski]

I'm highly suspicious of people who start with a price, instead of a performance requirement. Stating a need, and asking if you can get that for a certain budget makes sense, but a mere price point is not a serious request.

I've worked in T&M sales and product management for over 25 years and I was a T&M customer before that (so I have experience on both sides of the table).  There are lots of customers who start out with a budget (max price) and then try to maximize what they can buy with that budget.  Yes, there are also many customers who don't have a defined "upper limit" when it comes to price, but I don't find it strange at all when people ask something like "What's the best scope I can buy for under $25K?"

Honestly, if my manager told me I could spend $25K max but I could meet my immediate requirements with a $5K scope, I would still try to buy a scope as close to $25K as I could  

[tautech]

I'm highly suspicious of people who start with a price, instead of a performance requirement. Stating a need, and asking if you can get that for a certain budget makes sense, but a mere price point is not a serious request.

I've worked in T&M sales and product management for over 25 years and I was a T&M customer before that (so I have experience on both sides of the table).  There are lots of customers who start out with a budget (max price) and then try to maximize what they can buy with that budget.  Yes, there are also many customers who don't have a defined "upper limit" when it comes to price, but I don't find it strange at all when people ask something like "What's the best scope I can buy for under $25K?"

Honestly, if my manager told me I could spend $25K max but I could meet my immediate requirements with a $5K scope, I would still try to buy a scope as close to $25K as I could

OTOH there is seller trust and satisfaction grown when one displays a lower cost instrument can deliver needs with significant savings.
This can lead to many further purchases.....

[Construct]

I'm looking for a scope in the $15-20K price range.  I'd like at least 1GHz BW, 4+ channels, 12 bits.  Tek has a promotion right now with the MSO44-1.5GHz coming in at $14K and the MSO46-1.5GHz at $16.5K, with options at half of list price.  I see the R&S MXO4-BNDL (1.5GHz) @ $20.5K.  The LeCroy Wavesurfer 4104HD is $13K with a bunch of options.  Keysight has some 10-bit models on their used site in this price range (even up to 2.5GHz or higher), although these don't include probes and I'm not sure about the option pricing.  I do a lot of embedded and RF work along with some power supplies and precision analog.  I played around with the MXO4 a bit at a trade show and the UI seemed a bit laggy though there wasn't an opportunity to make any real measurements - it does seem to have a ton of features, and there are some in-depth reviews on youtube.  I haven't used the Tek or Lecroy yet, but I'm seeing if there's a way to get one as a demo.  My trusty MSO6034A has been great going on 15 years, but these days the screen is seeming a little small for some reason. 

Anything else to consider in this range?

If you've been doing well with a 300MHz scope for the past 15 years and your only major issue is screen size, I wouldn't rush to spend $10K+ on a replacement.

As others have mentioned, making use of the extra bandwidth a 1GHz scope would provide requires extra equipment. Passive probes, even if indicated up to 500MHz, bring significant capacitive loading.

If the goal is to expand into higher frequencies then the budget should consider active and/or Hi-Z probes as well.

Alternatively, there are some great value scopes in the 12-bit, 200-300MHz range with big screens that would provide nice quality of life improvements. This would keep your budget free for specialized equipment when the need arises in the future.

At the rate oscilloscopes are progressing and prices are falling year over year, I think the optimal strategy right now is to only buy what you need. By the time your needs grow, prices will have dropped even further.

[KungFuJosh]

If 1GHz is all you need, you could afford 3 SDS3104X HD scopes. But it might be smarter to buy only one and some nice active probes. If I needed something higher than that, I'd look at the SDS7000A series.

[2N3055]

If 1GHz is all you need, you could afford 3 SDS3104X HD scopes. But it might be smarter to buy only one and some nice active probes. If I needed something higher than that, I'd look at the SDS7000A series.

Like I said he could buy SDS3104xHD and a good SA from Siglent, and a probe or two...

[tautech]

If 1GHz is all you need, you could afford 3 SDS3104X HD scopes. But it might be smarter to buy only one and some nice active probes. If I needed something higher than that, I'd look at the SDS7000A series.

Like I said he could buy SDS3104xHD and a good SA from Siglent, and a probe or two...

There's a test not yet done....find the -3dB BW of active probe SAP1000.....now I have the RF sources to do so. 

[alm]

If I was planning to spend that much, then I would try to contact some representatives of the manufacturers to get some hands on experience.

I absolutely agree with this. For this kind of price, don't just order online, but ask for a loaner you can keep for some days and test with your own signals.

I would also consider that the fancy probes like active probes, differential probes, current probes, power rail probes, isolated probes etc are often not interchangeable between brands. So if you are interested in some of the more exotic probes, take that into account. I would say that for 1 GHz bandwidth you should definitely look at active probes or lo-Z resistive divider passive probes like this. Several brands sell the latter, and unlike active probes these probes do generally work on any brand scope. But the downside is higher DC loading (lower loading at 1 GHz, though).

[nctnico]

RF is done best with RF tools like SA.

True, but if you don't have the budget for both a scope and a spec an, then choosing a scope with a really good FFT implementation (like the MXO4) becomes important.

In addition, the ability to look at a signal in both the time and frequency domains is extremely helpful in many different applications: especially if you can set the spectrum parameters (center, span, etc.) independent of the time-domain settings.

Indeed. If you have a PSU for example, you can analyse a waveform piece-by-piece using FFT and find out which part of the waveform is causing excessive emissions. You can't find this using a spectrum analyser.

[2N3055]

RF is done best with RF tools like SA.

True, but if you don't have the budget for both a scope and a spec an, then choosing a scope with a really good FFT implementation (like the MXO4) becomes important.

In addition, the ability to look at a signal in both the time and frequency domains is extremely helpful in many different applications: especially if you can set the spectrum parameters (center, span, etc.) independent of the time-domain settings.

Indeed. If you have a PSU for example, you can analyse a waveform piece-by-piece using FFT and find out which part of the waveform is causing excessive emissions. You can't find this using a spectrum analyser.

But scope I mentioned, for instance, can do that..
I didn't say don't do this with a scope. I said, you can have a scope with good FFT AND a SA for that money and have both...

[pdenisowski]

I absolutely agree with this. For this kind of price, don't just order online, but ask for a loaner you can keep for some days and test with your own signals.

Agree - I've done literally hundreds of in-person visits and demonstrations for single-instrument sales opportunities (for two of the biggest T&M companies). 

I would also consider that the fancy probes like active probes, differential probes, current probes, power rail probes, isolated probes etc are often not interchangeable between brands. So if you are interested in some of the more exotic probes, take that into account. I would say that for 1 GHz bandwidth you should definitely look at active probes or lo-Z resistive divider passive probes

In my experience, most differential and current probes can be used with any scope (although they would have to be powered in a non-proprietary way).  Single-ended active (FET) probes are usually best bought from the same manufacturer as the scope.

That said, you usually get what you pay for with probes, so unless you have very modest requirements, you're not really saving money buying "budget" probes to go with a "nice" scope.

[nctnico]

I haven't used the Tek or Lecroy yet, but I'm seeing if there's a way to get one as a demo.

In this price range, you really need to get some hands-on experience with a selection of devices. Make sure to get a demo unit for at least a week (not just a visit from a salesperson); this shouldn't be a problem generally speaking. If it is, then just skip. But before doing that, make sure to create a test plan so you can determine piece of equipment truly caters to your needs. Making this testplan will take time & reading datasheets and manuals for the various pieces of equipment but it will be worth the effort as you'll also learn about the differences between the various pieces of equipment. Each manufacturer has their own approach to making oscilloscopes making it a wildly varying landscape.

[tv84]

I think the best comparison reference should be indeed the LeCroy Wavesurfer 4104HD.  You should/must drive test this one and compare all others to this experience.

That would still leave space for some probes and MAUI software is... MAUI software.

R&S MXO seem above the $$ range. Tek and KS are no go.

Siglent 6000A is below what a 15-20k$ user desires. Siglent 7000A is above just because of BW.

[pdenisowski]

R&S MXO seem above the $$ range.

There's an MXO4 bundle promotion going on right now (MXO4-BNDL) that's 20,665 USD (either through us or through a distributor).  That's about 1/3 off of list price.

Package MXO 4 series digital oscilloscope 4 channels, Contains serialized product + options: R&S®MXO44 digital oscilloscope 1335.5050K04 consisting of: - R&S®MXO44 digital oscilloscope, 4 channel, 200MHz - R&S®MXO4-B2415 1.5GHz Bandwidth upgrade - R&S®MXO4-PK1 Application bundle consisting of -Arbitrary Waveform Generator MXO4-B6 - Power Analysis MXO4-K31 -Frequency&Impedance analysis MXO4-K36 Triggering and decoding for (I2C,SPI,UART/RS-232/-422/-48)MXO4-K510 (CAN,CAN-FD,CAN-XL,LIN) MXO4-K520

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/products/test-and-measurement/oscilloscopes/rs-mxo-4-oscilloscope_63493-1164992.html (hit: "Configure and Quote")
https://www.newark.com/rohde-schwarz/mxo4-bndl/oscilloscope-1-5ghz-5gsps/dp/70AK5603
https://www.testequity.com/product/20000019-MXO4-BNDL