EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: MaxZ on October 25, 2020, 04:31:51 pm
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Hello,
Disclaimer with an eye on the "Newbies please read" note: I did read through a couple threads here but I haven't really seen a lot of comparisons between the models I have an eye on. No surprise to me because usually they are in completely different price ranges. However, under the conditions given below the models are much closer than usually, making a comparison more interesting. Also, I do value usability and how quick you get your measurement done quite a lot. This is something that's by far not discussed as much as bandwith, aquisition modes, etc.
I currently have a good old Rigol DS1102E. It has been serving me well for many years now but I do hit its limitations more and more often. Small screen, only 2 channels, very little memory (1M total, 512k with both channels enabled), ...
Long story short, I want a better scope and I want to keep it for a looong time. Features that I want to have: 4 channels, more memory, serial decoders, function generator, well designed UI/intuitive to use and a less noisier fan than the DS1102E. "Nice to have" and what I value: quick boot time and general speed of the device, bode plot, [other stuff I forgot].
The usage field is mainly power electronics and microcontrollers. While I have a logic analyzer for the DS1102E I actually never used it. I genuinely think 4 channels is enough for me as long as they can do all the digital stuff, too. I'm not into the super high bandwidth stuff; I've never wished for more than the 100MHz I had.
One note about the "well designed UI" point on my wishlist: Having a ton of features is nice, but most of them are only needed on rather rare occasions. However, no matter what you want to do with the thing, you always have to use the UI, the buttons, the menus, etc. No way around. And if they are annoying, every single time you use the scope will be annoying. Some people happily live with this and trade a well made UI for some extra features. I'm the other way around. I would rather not have a couple features if the remaining ones are a pleasure to use. If I truly need that missing feature, I'll save money to buy something else to do the job (and enjoy the well-designed scope for everything else).
So I've followed new scopes over the last two years and I've come up with the following candidates for an upgrade: Siglent SDS2000X-Plus, (used) Agilent/Keysight MSO-X 3000 and R&S RTB2000.
The Rigol MSO5000 is not on the list because I think I'll never get a friend of their current "designs". Additionally the 1:15min boot time would annoy me every single time I use the thing. I power my lab equippment up the moment I need it, not with the lights when entering the lab...
When I first saw the RTB2000 series, I did like them a lot. They seem to have put a lot of effort in the UI and the software in general which I do appreciate. Especially the 10s boot time really appeals to me and the way I currently use my scope (which is around 10s boot time, too). The only really annoying thing I've seen so far is that apparently the velocity control of the knobs is not great? I'm more of a knob guy than an on-screen-keypad guy.
With the options I want it was just way to expensive. Then I discovered the current eductation bundle from Batronix (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rs-rtb2004-70mhz-with-almost-all-options-for-2k-(batronix-education)/) which brings it a lot closer to what I was willing to spend on a scope. The bundle ticks every point of my wishlist but it's still 700€ more than the Siglent... It is more than I actually wanted to spend on a scope but if that's what it takes to not regret the choice for the next 10 years, I'll happily stretch my budget.
Speaking of the Siglent - It seems to be the best bang per buck with some advantages over the R&S. But the somewhat limited function generator, the rather unusual memory management and other things I've read (and can't remember right now) made me doubt. I have the feeling that it may not be as well "thought through" and comfortable to use than the other two scopes on the list. Please tell me if that's nonsense.
And finally, the Keysight/Agilent scope... It's actually the only one I've used in reality, although for a very short time only (at university). I did like it and it pops up from time to time on ebay for <2k€. However it's quite a bit older and has significantly less memory.
Hence I'd be happy to hear about your thoughts. Are there any other new/used/hackable models that I should consider? What are your experiences with the models listed? What advantages and disadvantages have I missed?
Thank you!
Max
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Look at what GW Instek has to offer. GDS-2000E or MSO-2000 series for example. The firmware is solid and they are very pleasant to use.
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If you want something that just works right now, I agree with Nico. Take a look at GW Instek GDS2000E or one of MSO/MDO variants..
Very good scopes. Take a closer look at them. Don't read datasheet, it doesn't give it justice. Download user manual and prepare to be amazed what it can do.. They are also very responsive to commands and have very logical layout of buttons and menus.
Siglent SDG2000X+ is newest scope from Siglent, and is still being actively developed.. That means it might have some bugs, but also it might gain more powerful options in months to come.
What exactly will happen, it remains to be seen. I think it is most promising scope from B tier. It's up to Siglent to keep the promise, and they did some nice job so far. If they do, nothing will be even close in this price range.
But if you need scope right now, you need to see if current capability is sufficient to you. You cannot count of what will (might) be next year.
Built in siggens are crap on every scope. Period. OTOH, they are fantastic for built in Frequency response analysis (FRA), and here Siglent has good implementation that is being actively developed and upgraded all the time. With Siglent, you can also get standalone Siglent AWG and use that one for FRA, directly from scope. That's a killer feature. If you need it, that is..
R&S RTB2000 is very fancy and has nice U/I. Some people love it, some people are just not very impressed. It has that premium product aura, and some very nice functions, but is deliberately limited in many ways. For decoding, for instance, it has very nice interface, etc etc. But you cannot search for I2C packets, or UART, or SPI... And things like that. So depending of what you do you might love it, or find it severely limiting... Also, user manual reveals more than datasheet, that is marketing sheet, not data sheet.
Actually, good advice is to make a list of things you want to do with it and then search a user manual to see how it's done. Pay attention to triggering, segmented memory management (what can you do with it, only look at it or can you analyse, search, decode later etc etc)
Regards,
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1:15 min rigol Boot time?
My MSO5000 didnt have that.
And you know that good equipment needs to warm up (our big 30ghz scope at least 20-30min) to be in spec..
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Never used that Siglent (I'm sure Tautech WILL chime in)
Now you're back in SZX you have little reason not to try one ! :P
10 minute train ride and 10 minute walk and you're at the factory. ;)
Say the word and I'll arrange one for you to try. :popcorn:
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Seems like Keysight is launching a new oscilloscope on Nov 12, not sure if it is within you price bracket but should be the replacement for their 3000x series?
https://www.gapwireless.com/event/keysight-new-oscilloscope-reveal-nov-12/ (https://www.gapwireless.com/event/keysight-new-oscilloscope-reveal-nov-12/)
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Seems like Keysight is launching a new oscilloscope on Nov 12, not sure if it is within you price bracket but should be the replacement for their 3000x series?
https://www.gapwireless.com/event/keysight-new-oscilloscope-reveal-nov-12/ (https://www.gapwireless.com/event/keysight-new-oscilloscope-reveal-nov-12/)
It is a new Infinium scope... That is several levels above Infiniivision 3000T series. So no, no replacement for that. And price that match that..
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Thank you all for the replies!
Looking at the manuals to find out how every scope can be used is a good (although time consuming) idea.
I had a look at the GW Instek scopes. Very interesting capabilities indeed - especially for the price. I mean, I absolutely like the idea of having scope and spectrum analyser in one instrument. But the interface, it looks sooo old. And I don't mean the "nice looking oldtimer" old. Rather the annoying, depressing old.
IF the scopes had great usability I could maybe live with the look of it but after seeing Dave playing with it for an hour (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRe9b7iV6Kc) and all the quirks he found in that time I'm really turned off by them. Granted, the video is 7 years old but even for that time the issues and the look seem worse than other scopes of that time and that feature class. If there are other scopes that have significant improvements compared to what I saw in that video, I'll happily take a look at them. If not, GW Instek is unfortunately no option for me.
1:15 min rigol Boot time?
My MSO5000 didnt have that.
And you know that good equipment needs to warm up (our big 30ghz scope at least 20-30min) to be in spec..
That's the boot time in Daves video... Has Rigol improved it significantly since then? Doesn't change my other problems with that scope though.
If want to quickly check if the PWM signal of my microcontroller is glitch free, I want to take the scope, turn it on, and check the signal. I don't care if the amplitude of the square wave is off by a whole 1% in the first minutes (heck even 10% wouldn't matter in that case). Neither do I care about the time base drifting more than the specified 5ppm (or 10ppm or whatever). Most of my usage cases are "quick checks" like this example. Hence I want a "quick" scope. Quick startup, quick measurement setup, quick navigation, etc.
That one day where I really need the full precision of the scope (or any other piece of equippment in my lab) I'll happily wait the 20-30mins or whatever time it takes. And only that one day.
Kind regards,
Max
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Thank you all for the replies!
Looking at the manuals to find out how every scope can be used is a good (although time consuming) idea.
I had a look at the GW Instek scopes. Very interesting capabilities indeed - especially for the price. I mean, I absolutely like the idea of having scope and spectrum analyser in one instrument. But the interface, it looks sooo old. And I don't mean the "nice looking oldtimer" old. Rather the annoying, depressing old.
IF the scopes had great usability I could maybe live with the look of it but after seeing Dave playing with it for an hour (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRe9b7iV6Kc) and all the quirks he found in that time I'm really turned off by them. Granted, the video is 7 years old but even for that time the issues and the look seem worse than other scopes of that time and that feature class. If there are other scopes that have significant improvements compared to what I saw in that video, I'll happily take a look at them. If not, GW Instek is unfortunately no option for me.
1:15 min rigol Boot time?
My MSO5000 didnt have that.
And you know that good equipment needs to warm up (our big 30ghz scope at least 20-30min) to be in spec..
That's the boot time in Daves video... Has Rigol improved it significantly since then? Doesn't change my other problems with that scope though.
If want to quickly check if the PWM signal of my microcontroller is glitch free, I want to take the scope, turn it on, and check the signal. I don't care if the amplitude of the square wave is off by a whole 1% in the first minutes (heck even 10% wouldn't matter in that case). Neither do I care about the time base drifting more than the specified 5ppm (or 10ppm or whatever). Most of my usage cases are "quick checks" like this example. Hence I want a "quick" scope. Quick startup, quick measurement setup, quick navigation, etc.
That one day where I really need the full precision of the scope (or any other piece of equippment in my lab) I'll happily wait the 20-30mins or whatever time it takes. And only that one day.
Kind regards,
Max
That is old 2000A series. We spoke about newer 2000E series.
Dave spent 5 minutes twirling knobs without any particular plan. He also had bias at that time that if scope doesn't work same as Keysight that it is stupid... And that scope absolutely have display gradation, except button has different behaviour than Keysight.
And as I said it is an old scope, not the one we speak about.
As to how fancy U/I looks, it all depends do you want a scope that works well, or one that looks fancy.. You can easily have one that is both, nice LeCroys start at 10000 USD and up... Highly recommended....
For GW Instek reviews that are more up to date, this guy has few videos...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-p6POqWmno (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-p6POqWmno)
As for boot time, you're out of luck. My Keysight 3000T boots 1:45 before coming online... And it is not a problem. By the time I grab probes, connect them, find grounding point , etc, it's up and running. Or I get up and stretch my painful back from too much sitting and go have a glass of water. It's not a problem if you don't make it out to be..
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As to how fancy U/I looks, it all depends do you want a scope that works well, or one that looks fancy..
I think this needs to be the first question answered.
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I hesitated a lot between this GW Instek and the Siglent but I opted for the Siglent.
Even if the siglent is less mature, it also has a lot of assets. Not to mention hardware, it has a good community here and a Tautech that can possibly speed up bug fixing or implementation of new functionality.
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Don´t know the scopes from GWInstek, but we got some AWGs from them, not really impressive.
My "A"s under the "B"s are rigol and siglent, where siglent turns more and more towards to the A, but this is just my opinion.
In fact, I don´t know much brands, only lecroy I´ve grown up with, some tek scopes and then rigol/siglent at home/lab on work for decoding things.
Boot time rigol mso 5000 was reduced to 59sec after the first firmware upgrade.
The absolute "king" in slow boot time was the wavesurfer 522 from lecroy....you can go make a coffee...
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Don´t know the scopes from GWInstek, but we got some AWGs from them, not really impressive.
My "A"s under the "B"s are rigol and siglent, where siglent turns more and more towards to the A, but this is just my opinion.
GW Instek's AWGs aren't very impressive indeed but a lot of their other stuff is quite good and they also offer good support. Actually it is GW Instek which is closer to being an A brand compared to Rigol and Siglent. GW Instek produces some high-end gear as well (with the price tag). Look at their power supplies and DC loads for example and compare to the ones from Kikusui; several are almost identical. Or the Tektronix 2260B series power supplies.
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The constant stream of bugs and problems in the Siglent threads aren't pretty reading, either.
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Actually it is GW Instek which is closer to being an A brand compared to Rigol and Siglent.
In case of scopes ?
Power Supplies...Well, I´m still a "fan" of linear supplies.. 8)
Impressive things from GWInstek ? Their Loads...
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Actually it is GW Instek which is closer to being an A brand compared to Rigol and Siglent.
In case of scopes ?
If you want a scope which works and (if you manage to find one) bugs get fixed within weeks instead of years (or never) then yes.
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Dave prefers the Keysights for their liveability. Very little dickiness going on with those and a joy to use. Considering your preferences it sounds like that could be a good match.
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GW Instek's AWGs aren't very impressive indeed but a lot of their other stuff is quite good and they also offer good support. Actually it is GW Instek which is closer to being an A brand compared to Rigol and Siglent. GW Instek produces some high-end gear as well (with the price tag). Look at their power supplies and DC loads for example and compare to the ones from Kikusui; several are almost identical. Or the Tektronix 2260B series power supplies.
Closer is not on par.
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If you want a scope which works and (if you manage to find one) bugs get fixed within weeks instead of years (or never) then yes.
Quick bug fixes made not a company to be an A brand.
Even Tek, Lecroy, Keysight have long times to fix bugs.
Apart from this, whether the actually rigol models or siglent are so buggy, you couldn´t work with it.
Even with my all time because so long existing bug model from lecroy you can do daily work with it.
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Dave prefers the Keysights for their liveability. Very little dickiness going on with those and a joy to use. Considering your preferences it sounds like that could be a good match.
Yep, with that budget you could get a Keysight DSOX1204G.
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Keysight-DSOX1204G.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Keysight-DSOX1204G.html)
It's EEVBLOG Dave's favorite oscilloscope.
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Dave prefers the Keysights for their liveability. Very little dickiness going on with those and a joy to use. Considering your preferences it sounds like that could be a good match.
Yep, with that budget you could get a Keysight DSOX1204G.
Maybe you missed the OP's requirement for a deeper memory scope ?
2 Mpts /4ch is no better than his old Rigol offered.
It's EEVBLOG Dave's favorite oscilloscope.
LOL of course it is, it's his security blanket.
Just this year Dave became aware of the memory management of deep memory scopes and struggled to get his head around the real power of a DSO, zooming in !
Technicians and EE's have embraced the power of deep memory scopes for years but it seems many are just awakening to it.
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Just this year Dave became aware of the memory management of deep memory scopes and struggled to get his head around the real power of a DSO, zooming in
No.. wrong: Zooming out! But that doesn't fit your narrative because Siglent is the only oscilloscope out there which can't zoom out despite having deep memory >:D And that again proves the point I made before: cheap gear but important features which improve productivity are missing.
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Just this year Dave became aware of the memory management of deep memory scopes and struggled to get his head around the real power of a DSO, zooming in
No.. wrong: Zooming out! But that doesn't fit your narrative because Siglent is the only oscilloscope out there which can't zoom out despite having deep memory >:D And that again proves the point I made before: cheap gear but important features which improve productivity are missing.
:-//
Not heard of LeCroy ? Pico ?
Both leaders in their field.
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Just this year Dave became aware of the memory management of deep memory scopes and struggled to get his head around the real power of a DSO, zooming in
No.. wrong: Zooming out! But that doesn't fit your narrative because Siglent is the only oscilloscope out there which can't zoom out despite having deep memory >:D And that again proves the point I made before: cheap gear but important features which improve productivity are missing.
:-//
Not heard of LeCroy ? Pico ?
Both leaders in their field.
Niche markets you mean.
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Thanks again for all the input.
@2N3055
Considering Dave and the GW Insteks. I do recognize that his opinion and ways of using the scope aren't equal with mines. However, that doesn't imply that I have to disagree with him on every single point. I wasn't talking about the part where the menu is not at the place he's used to. I was talking about things like "strange lines and overshoots", "dots not being dots anymore", "strange bumps on the signal at certain display settings", ... Those things have nothing to do with his preference for Keysight. And I don't think that "it's not their newest scope" is a justification for any of those things either. However I do want to know if GW Instek fixed those issues or if Dave did anything wrong (without me noticing it) that caused them.
Other things: "hit a button to open another menu with only a single button", where I totally agree with Dave that that button does not require a whole extra menu. Consistency in UI design is a good thing except for the cases where it only makes life harder. This is one of them IMO. I also agree with Dave that a dark grey/black font on a dark blue background is shitty to read (and completely unecessary). Even in your video about the newer scopes they still do it for some texts. This means that even after 7 more years they still don't know about things like minimum contrast in UI design. Also, monospaced, serifed fonts? Really...? Maybe they fix bugs within weeks as @nctnico says, which would be great. But apparently they stopped fixing anything UI related 30 years ago. They may have added stuff, like buttons with Sans Serif fonts but instead bringing the rest up to date, too, they still have the same monospaced 1990 looking menus, the same 1990 color set that doesn't even work everywhere (dark on dark).
I guess when I continue to watch the video the list will grow further. Again, if this is completely pointless for you, that's okay. It's not for me. IMO a UI should help the user, making its work as easy and comfortable as possible. It shouldn't be a necessary evil.
To sum up: as long as their scopes look like this I won't like their look for sure. But I do want to check out what they are capable of in practice (thx for the video) and maybe that compensates for the UI. I shall see.
Btw: I dont think I have to decide between "good features/hardware" and "ergonomics". I don't think that GW Instek can't change a font or a font color without making the scope worse, etc. You can have both. At least the scopes I originally considered archieved this.
@tautech, @nctnico:
I've read that discussion in the Siglent thread. For me, both concepts have their pros and cons. Siglents/LeCroys/Picos/... concept certainly is interesting and not per se a bad idea. But I also understand that users that had any other scope brand won't like it because it's not what they're used or simply not what helps them doing their job. And that's legit, too. Especially @tautech: "Yeah but he stabbed me, too" "Other companies (don't) listen to their customers, too" - that kind of argument is no justification for anything. Especially since I highly doubt that it's the zoom convention that made LeCroy a "leader" as you say. Every position in a discussion will for sure find examples of other people, companies, minorities and majorities that had the same good or bad idea.
To me it seems like there are cases where either concept shines, and cases where either concept is unpractical. Additionally it's become clear that forcing everyone to do it in the Siglent way pisses off quite a few people. For both reasons I genuinely think Siglent should give them the choice. Put a switch somewhere in a menu to let the user decide what zoom concept fits him best and make everyone happy. Siglent seems to listen to their customers in quite a few points, so why not in this one.
@Martin72:
I dont know what defines an A or B brand and I think it doesn't help at making a reasonable choice. To me it sounds rather like "pay for the name, not for the functionality" etc.
Considering bugfixes: I don't want a scope that requires quick bugfixes or even worse, bugfixes on a regular base. Nonetheless I do appreciate if the manufacturer fixes "important" bugs quickly.
@Fungus:
Yes I could get the entry level Keysight scope. But what benefit would it offer me compared to any other scope on the list (and in particular: compared to a used MSOX3000)?
Kind regards,
Max
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Thanks again for all the input.
@2N3055
Considering Dave and the GW Insteks. I do recognize that his opinion and ways of using the scope aren't equal with mines. However, that doesn't imply that I have to disagree with him on every single point. I wasn't talking about the part where the menu is not at the place he's used to. I was talking about things like "strange lines and overshoots", "dots not being dots anymore", "strange bumps on the signal at certain display settings", ... Those things have nothing to do with his preference for Keysight. And I don't think that "it's not their newest scope" is a justification for any of those things either. However I do want to know if GW Instek fixed those issues or if Dave did anything wrong (without me noticing it) that caused them.
GW Instek has fixed those issues.
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@Fungus:
Yes I could get the entry level Keysight scope. But what benefit would it offer me compared to any other scope on the list (and in particular: compared to a used MSOX3000)?
It obviously has benefits for Dave. :-//
Dave likes it because it's the 'scope that never slows down no matter how much you throw at it, it's the 'scope for engineers who know the math, it speaks his language and does things the way he expects. Some might say it doesn't have much memory, and that's true, but it has a few tricks up its sleeve and seems to get the job done anyway.
(Some might say that "Deep memory" is a FUD term thrown around by salesmen, there's some truth in that, too, and I can remember those exact same salesmen saying so when the Rigol DS1054Z appeared with a lot more memory than their models had at the time)
Me? I'd probably get the GW-Instek because:
* I know it's technically good (electronically and mathematically)
* I'm sure all the features will work properly and there won't be much it can't do
* It has a separate button for menu selections (no pushing of the twisty knob)
* Separate vertical controls for each channel (no messing about with multiplexed buttons).
* Fast and responsive
That's a personal choice though.
Now excuse me, my new oscilloscope just arrived. I've an unboxing to do... :)
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Just this year Dave became aware of the memory management of deep memory scopes and struggled to get his head around the real power of a DSO, zooming in
No.. wrong: Zooming out!
Yep. It's not normal to work on zoomed-out data, you certainly don't set up triggering when you're zoomed out and can barely see the individual waves.
The main benefit of deep memory is searching for infrequent events and not being able to zoom out when you find something really disrupts the workflow.
But that doesn't fit your narrative because Siglent is the only oscilloscope out there which can't zoom out despite having deep memory >:D And that again proves the point I made before: cheap gear but important features which improve productivity are missing.
Word.
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Especially @tautech: "Yeah but he stabbed me, too" "Other companies (don't) listen to their customers, too" - that kind of argument is no justification for anything. Especially since I highly doubt that it's the zoom convention that made LeCroy a "leader" as you say. Every position in a discussion will for sure find examples of other people, companies, minorities and majorities that had the same good or bad idea.
To me it seems like there are cases where either concept shines, and cases where either concept is unpractical. Additionally it's become clear that forcing everyone to do it in the Siglent way pisses off quite a few people. For both reasons I genuinely think Siglent should give them the choice. Put a switch somewhere in a menu to let the user decide what zoom concept fits him best and make everyone happy. Siglent seems to listen to their customers in quite a few points, so why not in this one.
Pleased to see you have really been doing some study yet not everyone understands there are different memory management philosophies in different brands. For some this is HW choice driven and others the emphasis is on analysis where the larger the capture the better.
With just 1500 Euro available the SDS2104X Plus is leader in this class for mem depth and to utilise this memory fully just the understanding of how best to do it and minor changes to workflow are needed.
However only the buyer can decide what specs are required and make a feature choice that best suits their needs yet do so with the knowledge scope usage may not be what they are accustomed to.
Since scopes were invented none have ever worked the same yet all can produce the same result in an apples vs apples test.
Proposals have been put to Siglent to change their long standing 'LeCroy/Pico capture philosophy' however last I heard it was not considered high priority but that was some months ago and with new SDS2000X Plus firmware not far away we might have a surprise coming or not. IDK.
LeCroy and Pico are leaders in their specialty fields and if LeCroy can build a 100+ GHz DSO that topped HPAK's efforts until recently they are worthy of great respect.
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@Fungus:
Yes I could get the entry level Keysight scope. But what benefit would it offer me compared to any other scope on the list (and in particular: compared to a used MSOX3000)?
It obviously has benefits for Dave. :-//
Let's do a car analogy... :popcorn:
There's no "correct" car to buy. Some people want pickup trucks, some people want a two-seater sports car, some people want something cheap and small to go around town and do the shopping ... and a whole bunch of stuff in between.
We can all agree on which models are stinkers but nobody has an answer as to what's "best". There's happy car owners in every category.
Your problems are that:
a) You don't know what category you're in because you don't know the world of oscilloscopes. The only answer would be to have them all and try them, but that's not possible.
b) You're asking in a place which is full of bias and conflicting interests (ie. fanboys and sales reps for particular brands).
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Pleased to see you have really been doing some study yet not everyone understands there are different memory management philosophies in different brands. For some this is HW choice driven and others the emphasis is on analysis where the larger the capture the better.
There is no reason not to capture the full memory when you press "stop" or when you do a single-shot trigger. None.
Only a few posts ago you were going on about the benefits of "deep memory", yet ... here's a Siglent that isn't using it all.
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Pleased to see you have really been doing some study yet not everyone understands there are different memory management philosophies in different brands. For some this is HW choice driven and others the emphasis is on analysis where the larger the capture the better.
There is no reason not to capture the full memory when you press "stop" or when you do a single-shot trigger. None.
Only a few posts ago you were going on about the benefits of "deep memory", yet ... here's a Siglent that isn't using it all.
::)
Oh FFS Fungus, go play with your new scope instead of rambling on about nothing or something you think you see.
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Oh FFS Fungus, go play with your new scope instead of rambling on about nothing or something you think you see.
The emperor goes naked by choice. :-//
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I think forum would be 50 % smaller if 3 of you didn't do this all time..... :-DD
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I think forum would be 50 % smaller if 3 of you didn't do this all time..... :-DD
"A Siglent shill, a GW-Instek fanboy and a Rigol adept log in" sounds like the start of a joke. I guess it is a joke, except no one's laughing.
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Yep, with that budget you could get a Keysight DSOX1204G.
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Keysight-DSOX1204G.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Keysight-DSOX1204G.html)
It's EEVBLOG Dave's favorite oscilloscope.
A good used 2000X is within reach. Aiming for a 3000X is optimistic, but becomes more likely with a budget increase.
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Yep, with that budget you could get a Keysight DSOX1204G.
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Keysight-DSOX1204G.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Keysight-DSOX1204G.html)
What are the benefits against the scopes mentioned before ?
Smaller screen, smaller memory ?
Comparing to the MSO5000 (bigger screen (9" instead 7",higher resolution, touchable), 2-ch AWG, max 200M memory, max 350Mhz (etc, etc), it losts in every way and is more expensive.
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I think forum would be 50 % smaller if 3 of you didn't do this all time..... :-DD
"A Siglent shill, a GW-Instek fanboy and a Rigol adept log in" sounds like the start of a joke. I guess it is a joke, except no one's laughing.
I have one Siglent, one Rigol and one Gw Instek ( an old one )
In which category am I classified? >:D
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However, while reading you, I think my scopes are faulty because they don't crash, I get to work with them and create high-end products and make money.
Do I have to return my devices for replacement? That worries me :o
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What are the benefits against the scopes mentioned before ?
Smaller screen, smaller memory ?
Comparing to the MSO5000 (bigger screen (9" instead 7",higher resolution, touchable), 2-ch AWG, max 200M memory, max 350Mhz (etc, etc), it losts in every way and is more expensive.
It's a more basic but a mature oscilloscope. The features are solid and it's a pleasure to use due to the ASIC. Both line up with MaxZ's preference for well executed features and convenience. The Chinese options tend to come with more features and options but are also typically more hit and miss. The interface lag on the Rigol is fairly atrocious which is fine for many, but means a no go for others. It really depends on what you value, need and can afford. I'd probably recommend looking at one of its bigger brothers instead of the 1000X though.
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I have one Siglent, one Rigol and one Gw Instek ( an old one )
In which category am I classified? >:D
Well, which one do you post compulsively obsessively about in every single oscilloscope thread to the point of people loathing the sight of your nickname? That category.
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However, while reading you, I think my scopes are faulty because they don't crash, I get to work with them and create high-end products and make money.
Do I have to return my devices for replacement? That worries me :o
Yeah, reading here how terrible all it was and then returning to the bench and wonder, you could turn your scope on...
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I think forum would be 50 % smaller if 3 of you didn't do this all time..... :-DD
"A Siglent shill, a GW-Instek fanboy and a Rigol adept log in" sounds like the start of a joke. I guess it is a joke, except no one's laughing.
That is because the Keysight lover entered the room. Nothing to be happy about that because these guys have such a short memory that they incapable of remembering jokes >:D
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I think forum would be 50 % smaller if 3 of you didn't do this all time..... :-DD
"A Siglent shill, a GW-Instek fanboy and a Rigol adept log in" sounds like the start of a joke. I guess it is a joke, except no one's laughing.
I have one Siglent, one Rigol and one Gw Instek ( an old one )
In which category am I classified? >:D
My new oscilloscope isn't a Rigol. Which one is me?
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I think forum would be 50 % smaller if 3 of you didn't do this all time..... :-DD
"A Siglent shill, a GW-Instek fanboy and a Rigol adept log in" sounds like the start of a joke. I guess it is a joke, except no one's laughing.
I have one Siglent, one Rigol and one Gw Instek ( an old one )
In which category am I classified? >:D
My new oscilloscope isn't a Rigol. Which one is me?
Same here. There are very few (maybe 1 or 2) digital oscilloscope brands I have not owned or used but somehow I'm always drawn to Tektronix. Maybe Tautech is the secret Rigol admirer?
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My new oscilloscope isn't a Rigol. Which one is me?
An A or B Brand ? ;)
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That is because the Keysight lover entered the room. Nothing to be happy about that because these guys have such a short memory that they incapable of remembering jokes >:D
That's the thing, isn't it? There are a few people here who can't distinguish between normal conversation and endlessly obsessive disfunctional behaviour. They think anyone else is how they are and what they're doing somehow normal. I don't think you understand how fed up most people here are with thread after thread being barfed full of the same inane drivel. Any sensible discussion is long gone because the sensible people quickly move on. There's a wealth of knowledge which won't partake in these conversations because of the bad behaviour of a few. What's left is the same hot garbage we see in every thread. Newcomers in turn are missing out both because a lot of knowledge is absent and because they're actively fed FUD. Not to mention their first Eevblog experience is by far the worst one to be had. It's like a toxic moat keeping people out.
I don't know why Dave puts up with it, but maybe he's decided his time is more valuable. If it were up to me the two or three usual suspects would've been booted long ago. Any useful posts are swamped by an avalanche of disappointment and bile.
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That is because the Keysight lover entered the room. Nothing to be happy about that because these guys have such a short memory that they incapable of remembering jokes >:D
That's the thing, isn't it? There are a few people here who can't distinguish between normal conversation and endlessly obsessive disfunctional behaviour. They think anyone else is how they are and what they're doing somehow normal. I don't think you understand how fed up most people here are with thread after thread being barfed full of the same inane drivel. Any sensible discussion is long gone because the sensible people quickly move on. There's a wealth of knowledge which won't partake in these conversations because of the bad behaviour of a few. What's left is the same hot garbage we see in every thread. Newcomers in turn are missing out both because a lot of knowledge is absent and because they're actively fed FUD. Not to mention their first Eevblog experience is by far the worst one to be had. It's like a toxic moat keeping people out.
I don't know why Dave puts up with it, but maybe he's decided his time is more valuable. If it were up to me the two or three usual suspects would've been booted long ago. Any useful posts are swamped by an avalanche of disappointment and bile.
You will find the same behavior in all forums, in all areas.
There has been for years a war between Microchip VS Atmel ( It's very funny now by the way ).
Intel VS AMD
ATI VS NVIDIA
Windows VS Linux
gasoline VS diesel
Android VS IOS
[...]
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(Apologies to everybody in advance but (a) He insulted me, and (b) This is too good to let go...)
There is no reason not to capture the full memory when you press "stop" or when you do a single-shot trigger. None.
::)
Oh FFS Fungus, go play with your new scope instead of rambling on about nothing or something you think you see.
I've been playing...
My new 'scope thinks this is important enough to have a permanent indicator at the top which shows the size of the visible screen data relative to the full memory buffer. Users can look at it anytime and see exactly how much they'll be able to zoom out if they hit "stop".
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/scope-upgrade-for-~1500/?action=dlattach;attach=1098916;image)
(The full memory is the yellow line. The visible area is the bit inside the brackets. The brackets move in/out when I change the horizontal timebase.)
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What model did you buy ?
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That is because the Keysight lover entered the room. Nothing to be happy about that because these guys have such a short memory that they incapable of remembering jokes >:D
That's the thing, isn't it? There are a few people here who can't distinguish between normal conversation and endlessly obsessive disfunctional behaviour. They think anyone else is how they are and what they're doing somehow normal. I don't think you understand how fed up most people here are with thread after thread being barfed full of the same inane drivel. Any sensible discussion is long gone because the sensible people quickly move on. There's a wealth of knowledge which won't partake in these conversations because of the bad behaviour of a few. What's left is the same hot garbage we see in every thread. Newcomers in turn are missing out both because a lot of knowledge is absent and because they're actively fed FUD. Not to mention their first Eevblog experience is by far the worst one to be had. It's like a toxic moat keeping people out.
I don't know why Dave puts up with it, but maybe he's decided his time is more valuable. If it were up to me the two or three usual suspects would've been booted long ago. Any useful posts are swamped by an avalanche of disappointment and bile.
I think a relative newcomer like myself needs to spend some time reviewing the posts to get an idea of where the bias is. In my case a recently retired advanced technology researcher doing SOTA IC design I had never heard of Rigol, Siglent, GW Instek or others. Our labs had Tek, HP/A/KS, R&S equipment, and I had very little exposure to DSOs since at the later part of my career I was at the front of the IC design and didn't get into the labs much. So when I starting a new home lab to get back to my older "hands on" lab experience I got a couple Tek 2465 scopes off eBay and fixed them up, then a couple HP & Agilent 34401A DMMs and fixed them up, this was my comfort zone Tek & HP. Since I needed a cal reference for the DMMs I decided on the KS 34465A. I'm particular fond of Keysight having designed Indium Phosphide test chips in their 600GHz process, and know and worked with a few senior KS folks, so my KS preference.
Now it comes time to dabble in DSOs and this is when I came here looking for info to help decide back in July. I spend countless hours following all the posts on the various DSO threads, and became familiar with the bias for the various brands. After "listening" to all the arguments/discussions and such, I decided to deviate from Tek or KS and try a Siglent, ending up with a SDS2102X Plus, which has exceeded my expectations in just about every way :)
So without all the endless arguments/discussions on various threads I probably would have ended up with a KS instead of the Siglent DSO. Would this have been bad, heck no the KS DSO is superb I'm sure. However, I believe the Siglent is a better value for my home use since my time isn't valued now (IC design is a very expensive field and time is also very expensive), if this was for our labs while I was working then the KS would have been the choice.
Anyway, my point is that having endless discussions from biased sources isn't always bad, and if you can spent the time to review the various posts then the bias can be factored into the responses. So a savvy newcomer looking for advise on a DSO purchase should spend some time to understand the responses from the various sources.
I do agree if the arguments/discussions gets out of hand then moderation is required.
Best,
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You will find the same behavior in all forums, in all areas.
There has been for years a war between Microchip VS Atmel ( It's very funny now by the way ).
Intel VS AMD
ATI VS NVIDIA
Windows VS Linux
gasoline VS diesel
Android VS IOS
[...]
True, you'll find similar pissing contests in various places. The difference is that the oscilloscope threads seem to be the most persistent and waged by the least varied group. Even the all too common OS war doesn't come close.
Added to that is that it's generally specifically newcomers who are targeted and misled with an overload of FUD. This means the group most susceptible to it is led into the weeds, very possibly making buying decisions that aren't most suited to their situation. Add to that the bad atmosphere that surrounds these discussions and the toxic behaviour is both negatively impacting newcomers and the broader community.
And for what? The gratification of a shill with skin in the game and a few other pissants? We're all better off without them. If you can't behave like a moderately decent human it's probably better to move on.
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I think a relative newcomer like myself needs to spend some time reviewing the posts to get an idea of where the bias is. In my case a recently retired advanced technology researcher doing SOTA IC design I had never heard of Rigol, Siglent, GW Instek or others. Our labs had Tek, HP/A/KS, R&S equipment, and I had very little exposure to DSOs since at the later part of my career I was at the front of the IC design and didn't get into the labs much. So when I starting a new home lab to get back to my older "hands on" lab experience I got a couple Tek 2465 scopes off eBay and fixed them up, then a couple HP & Agilent 34401A DMMs and fixed them up, this was my comfort zone Tek & HP. Since I needed a cal reference for the DMMs I decided on the KS 34465A. I'm particular fond of Keysight having designed Indium Phosphide test chips in their 600GHz process, and know and worked with a few senior KS folks, so my KS preference.
Now it comes time to dabble in DSOs and this is when I came here looking for info to help decide back in July. I spend countless hours following all the posts on the various DSO threads, and became familiar with the bias for the various brands. After "listening" to all the arguments/discussions and such, I decided to deviate from Tek or KS and try a Siglent, ending up with a SDS2102X Plus, which has exceeded my expectations in just about every way :)
So without all the endless arguments/discussions on various threads I probably would have ended up with a KS instead of the Siglent DSO. Would this have been bad, heck no the KS DSO is superb I'm sure. However, I believe the Siglent is a better value for my home use since my time isn't valued now (IC design is a very expensive field and time is also very expensive), if this was for our labs while I was working then the KS would have been the choice.
Anyway, my point is that having endless discussions from biased sources isn't always bad, and if you can spent the time to review the various posts then the bias can be factored into the responses. So a savvy newcomer looking for advise on a DSO purchase should spend some time to understand the responses from the various sources.
I do agree if the arguments/discussions gets out of hand then moderation is required.
Best,
See my previous post. You obviously have some experience in the field and know to recognise a turd when you see one. The problem is that completely new and inexperienced people are maliciously led astray for reasons not serving their own, and get a rather unpleasant introduction to the forums to boot. I do appreciate your input and views, though. It's always welcome to see different perspectives.
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What model did you buy ?
Micsig >:D
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That is because the Keysight lover entered the room. Nothing to be happy about that because these guys have such a short memory that they incapable of remembering jokes >:D
That's the thing, isn't it? There are a few people here who can't distinguish between normal conversation and endlessly obsessive disfunctional behaviour.
See, your self-diagnosis works excellent. I recall quite a few threads where you keep harping on about how Windows is so good and anyone not agreeing is a complete idiot. Meanwhile you add very little value to this thread as well. It doesn't go beyong bitching on people who offer their experience for free but do not agree with your (appearantly) limited view.
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What model did you buy ?
Micsig >:D
Yep.
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Micsig-STO1104C.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Micsig-STO1104C.html)
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What model did you buy ?
Micsig >:D
Yep.
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Micsig-STO1104C.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Micsig-STO1104C.html)
Concrats! These are nice scopes.
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Too bad they stopped their 10inch series ( Micsig TO102 ) with BNC on the side.
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Too bad they stopped their 10inch series ( Micsig TO102 ) with BNC on the side.
Nah, I was worried but it's not a problem at all. On a desk, you just swing cables back and on the side, left or right whatever is more convenient.. They are long enough.
When outside office, handheld and probing into devices, you are standing in front of device so BNCs point in direction of DUT....
That is not a problem. There a some U/I inconsistencies, and some other problems.Nothing major.
But as a general purpose diagnostic scope it's very nice. I use it all the time.
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What model did you buy ?
Micsig >:D
Yep.
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Micsig-STO1104C.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Micsig-STO1104C.html)
Concrats! These are nice scopes.
I'm really liking it so far. Between the buttons and the touch screen, everything is really fast to access.
Now I've used it: I can totally see how it would work well without the knobs/buttons but the knobs/buttons were only 40 Euros extra with Batronix's current pricing so I went with them.
I don't see the position of the BNCs as a problem. If they were on the side they'd 50% likely be on the wrong side, which is worse IMHO.
That is not a problem. There a some U/I inconsistencies, and some other problems.Nothing major.
I counted two things I'd change in the UI. Very minor things.
One thing is 100% sure after 36 hours use: I'm not going back to a twisty "multifunction-knob" interface, ever. Doesn't matter how "well laid out" or "snappy/responsive" it is.
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See, your self-diagnosis works excellent. I recall quite a few threads where you keep harping on about how Windows is so good and anyone not agreeing is a complete idiot. Meanwhile you add very little value to this thread as well. It doesn't go beyong bitching on people who offer their experience for free but do not agree with your (appearantly) limited view.
That's the problem, you don't offer experience. You offer jack shit, except an incredibly biased view. You say you have experience with various oscilloscopes but you have nothing to show for. You don't supply your experience or pros and cons like so many other people do. I don't care what you recommend, as long as it's a honest and somewhat unbiased point of view. People will always have personal preferences and a certain degree of bias, but that's miles apart from an obsessive infatuation and actively campaigning your personal agenda or wallet at the expense of others.
I don't know whose posts about Windows you read, but I doubt they were mine. Windows does some things reasonably well and many others are a shit show. I don't think Windows is "so good". I probably tried arguing something positive and got labeled "pro Windows" by the retards who need to polarize everything into extremes to understand the world. Whatever the case, this thread isn't about Windows and there's no value in making it one other than starting a mud fight, so we best leave that remark for what it is. The SNR is atrocious enough as it is.
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See, your self-diagnosis works excellent. I recall quite a few threads where you keep harping on about how Windows is so good and anyone not agreeing is a complete idiot. Meanwhile you add very little value to this thread as well. It doesn't go beyong bitching on people who offer their experience for free but do not agree with your (appearantly) limited view.
That's the problem, you don't offer experience. You offer jack shit, except an incredibly biased view. You say you have experience with various oscilloscopes but you have nothing to show for.
Now you are just showing you are full of sh!t. I don't get what your deal is, but to me it seems like you are on some kind of crusade out of spite or so. Get a life!
I did some reviews on various oscilloscopes:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2204-mso-review/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2204-mso-review/)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-gds2204e-(200mhz-4-channel-dso)-review/msg855862/#msg855862 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-gds2204e-(200mhz-4-channel-dso)-review/msg855862/#msg855862)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-to1104-(similar-to-rigol-1104z)/msg1196293/#msg1196293 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-to1104-(similar-to-rigol-1104z)/msg1196293/#msg1196293)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtm3000-review/msg1604185/#msg1604185 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtm3000-review/msg1604185/#msg1604185)
And over the years I have also posted some other hands-on experiences with oscilloscopes:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-54835a-scope-(4-channel-1ghz-4gss)-repair-uphack/msg1251605/#msg1251605 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-54835a-scope-(4-channel-1ghz-4gss)-repair-uphack/msg1251605/#msg1251605)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/upgrading-mainboard-in-lecroy-dda-3000-(aka-wavepro-7300a)/msg2748842/#msg2748842 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/upgrading-mainboard-in-lecroy-dda-3000-(aka-wavepro-7300a)/msg2748842/#msg2748842)
What do you have to show for yourself?
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Now you are just showing you are full of sh!t. I don't get what your deal is, but to me it seems like you are on some kind of crusade out of spite or so. Get a life!
I did some reviews on various oscilloscopes:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2204-mso-review/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2204-mso-review/)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-gds2204e-(200mhz-4-channel-dso)-review/msg855862/#msg855862 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gw-instek-gds2204e-(200mhz-4-channel-dso)-review/msg855862/#msg855862)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-to1104-(similar-to-rigol-1104z)/msg1196293/#msg1196293 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-to1104-(similar-to-rigol-1104z)/msg1196293/#msg1196293)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtm3000-review/msg1604185/#msg1604185 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtm3000-review/msg1604185/#msg1604185)
And over the years I have also posted some other hands-on experiences with oscilloscopes:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-54835a-scope-(4-channel-1ghz-4gss)-repair-uphack/msg1251605/#msg1251605 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-54835a-scope-(4-channel-1ghz-4gss)-repair-uphack/msg1251605/#msg1251605)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/upgrading-mainboard-in-lecroy-dda-3000-(aka-wavepro-7300a)/msg2748842/#msg2748842 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/upgrading-mainboard-in-lecroy-dda-3000-(aka-wavepro-7300a)/msg2748842/#msg2748842)
What do you have to show for yourself?
So why there so much FUD barf? Direct that attention and energy to making more useful posts. Though the fact you still have to ask what my deal is worries me. When I mention what's happening in the oscilloscope threads in the TEA thread I get an awful lot of ayes, personal accounts of similar stories and why they quickly stopped frequenting these threads and people knowing exactly which members are involved. Playing coy is a bit silly.
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I don't think we need you to police this forum. If Dave or Simon get annoyed they will step in. Nobody is forced to read threads they don't want to read. There are lots of topics and subsections in this forum which don't interest me and I'm not going in there to say other people don't like what is being discussed.
Besides that I'm not mentioned in the TEA thread at all (just checked using search) so I don't get why you are picking on me (not just in this thread but in other threads as well).
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My new oscilloscope isn't a Rigol. Which one is me?
An A or B Brand ? ;)
Ah, a Micsig... 8)
They´re making good current probes, I got the CP2100B....excellent price value.
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Ah, a Micsig... 8)
Yep.
PS: This post was typed on my new oscilloscope... :P
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So you can play Doom on it https://js-dos.com/games/doom.exe.html (https://js-dos.com/games/doom.exe.html)
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The Micsig is great little portable scope. Heck, I use it on the bench a lot too.
Good battery life, fairly well laid out UI with minimal bugs/annoyances.
One bug I noticed:
There is a feature that will auto-off the scope if not used for certain length of time.
I have had the scope auto-off while I have been adjusting knobs.
I think they forgot to include some knob movements in the 'scope being used' detection for auto-off.
I'm not using the latest android firmware so maybe thats been fixed.
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So you can play Doom on it https://js-dos.com/games/doom.exe.html (https://js-dos.com/games/doom.exe.html)
Apparently so! (although only 1fps so not much fun)
It also runs Youtube and most other web sites just fine.
It doesn't have Google play installed so there's no app store. >:( I'm trying to get it to let me install .apk files manually but it doesn't let me.
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It also runs Youtube and most other web sites just fine.
A tablet with scope functionality.. 8)