Author Topic: SPD3303X Hiccup  (Read 2171 times)

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Offline mawyattTopic starter

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SPD3303X Hiccup
« on: August 18, 2024, 11:12:54 pm »
For some reason we can't locate the thread that references the overheating Bridge Rectifier in the SPD3303X causing the PS to Reset.

Disclaimer, this is NOT recommended, approved, nor good engineering/repair, work just simply lazy temporary solution!!

We have little patience and time, and the CEO already has tasks aligned for us; fix the dishwasher, clean the rug cleaner, measure the pool chairs for fabric replacement (now that's a real PITA as we've already done a couple), remove the baseboard in the back bedroom, take the garbage out and so on!!

When our SPD3303X Hiccuped the other day, we thought, "yep we need to replace the overheating bridge rectifier", however we have 3 SDP3303Xs and that's a lot of work!!

After taking the culprit SPD3303X cover off and locating the Bridge Rectifier, we began to understand what was entailed in replacing such, realizing no way were we going to remove the front panel PCB, remove rectifier, replace such, reinstall PCB, and so on, and for 3 PSs, way too much work!!

So we began to think a dumb, cheap, easy, lazy, redneck patchwork, procrastinating solution, and came up with "lets just put a heatsink on the Bridge Rectifier for now on the only PS that has had a Hiccup, and see how this works!!" :palm:

Well, it's been running a couple days now without a Hiccup (Reset)!! ::)

Anyway, we've justified our solution for now as it's apparently not Resetting, so "If it ain't broke don't fix it"  :o

BTW we've noted this particular SPD3303X so we won't use it in any critical applications (we have 2 others). Much later when time permits we'll tackle this with the proper rectifier replacements, we already have those in-house!!

Best,

 

   
« Last Edit: August 19, 2024, 01:52:52 am by mawyatt »
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Offline Kean

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Re: SDP3303X Hiccup
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2024, 11:39:26 pm »
It would be good to fix the product code in the subject - it should be SPD3303X  not SDP3303X

Maybe you were also searching for old posts using the wrong code?
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: SDP3303X Hiccup
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2024, 11:42:22 pm »
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/siglent-spd3303x-e-reboot-problem/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/siglent-spd3303x-e-rebooting/

Some of them already have heatsinks on that part. I don't know why they all didn't, but even with that, some have failed.

My DC Load might actually show up soon, we'll see how mine does.

Thanks,
Josh
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Online tautech

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Re: SDP3303X Hiccup
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2024, 11:49:01 pm »
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/siglent-spd3303x-e-reboot-problem/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/siglent-spd3303x-e-rebooting/

Some of them already have heatsinks on that part. I don't know why they all didn't, but even with that, some have failed.

My DC Load might actually show up soon, we'll see how mine does.

Thanks,
Josh
The bridge in question only supplies the digital circuitry therefore PSU loads should have no additional effect on its loading.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: SDP3303X Hiccup
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2024, 12:01:27 am »
The bridge in question only supplies the digital circuitry therefore PSU loads should have no additional effect on its loading.

I thought it got hotter under load? How can I test that part?
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Re: SDP3303X Hiccup
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2024, 01:32:08 am »
The bridge in question only supplies the digital circuitry therefore PSU loads should have no additional effect on its loading.

I thought it got hotter under load?
If the one diode in the bridge fails these PSU can go into a reboot cycle at cold boot but can also start acting up soon after boot. I've seen both.
Whenever they start acting strangely the tiny 2A bridge is the first suspect.
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Offline mawyattTopic starter

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Re: SDP3303X Hiccup
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2024, 01:36:37 am »
It would be good to fix the product code in the subject - it should be SPD3303X  not SDP3303X

Maybe you were also searching for old posts using the wrong code?

Get this mixed up all the time, thanks for pointing it out, probably reason we couldn't find anything with the search |O

Best,
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: SPD3303X Hiccup
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2024, 06:48:55 am »
Not sure if that is an optical illusion from the photo angle, but the top of the big capacitor right underneath the radiator looks like it already started to bulge.  I would check its ESR/capacitance.

Apart from that, the electrolytic capacitors are very close to the heat source(s).  A layer of Kapton auto adhesive tape around the capacitors might help, only on the side with the heat source(s), so to reflect the infrared away from the capacitors.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2024, 06:52:32 am by RoGeorge »
 

Offline mawyattTopic starter

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Re: SPD3303X Hiccup
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2024, 02:59:36 pm »
Here's a thermal image of the Bridge Rectifier with heatsink and area around, things are very warm including the caps. However the one cap isn't bulging, it's just the angle of the image. The Max Temp is the T0-92 device (Regulator?).

After about 4~5 days, we haven't experienced a reset.

Could someone with a new 3303 post a thermal image of this area to compare temperatures temperature distribution?

Best,
« Last Edit: August 20, 2024, 08:36:11 pm by mawyatt »
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Offline Sorama

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Re: SPD3303X Hiccup
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2024, 05:40:55 pm »
a quantitative measurement using IR won't be possible.
First you would have to determine the emission factor, secondly you're measuring a metal (the heatsink) which has a low emission and therefore hard to measure by IR.
A (qualitative) measurement with the same IR camera from the same angle would give a representative impression of the heat that is generated over there.
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: SDP3303X Hiccup
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2024, 07:15:39 pm »
It would be good to fix the product code in the subject - it should be SPD3303X  not SDP3303X

Get this mixed up all the time [...]

I think it's an acronym -- Siglent Power Doohickey. At least that's how I remember it.  ;)
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: SDP3303X Hiccup
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2024, 07:38:31 pm »
I think it's an acronym -- Siglent Power Doohickey. At least that's how I remember it.  ;)

100%! That's how they do all their acronyms. Like the Siglent Signal Gadget.
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Offline mawyattTopic starter

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Re: SPD3303X Hiccup
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2024, 08:05:48 pm »
a quantitative measurement using IR won't be possible.
First you would have to determine the emission factor, secondly you're measuring a metal (the heatsink) which has a low emission and therefore hard to measure by IR.
A (qualitative) measurement with the same IR camera from the same angle would give a representative impression of the heat that is generated over there.

We know, thanks, should have said "compare temperature distribution", but more interested in how the components around this area are spread relative temperature-wise as this area is a "hot spot"!! Everything in the area seems heated up, and wonder if this is due to actual internal dissipation or just localized conducted heating.

We did "look" at the Black Anodized Heat Sink utilized with the cheap UT-260B IR Camera just for sanity check, used our MHP30 as a heat source just to "see" if things were in the ballpark.

Anyway, another "view" with a newer 3303 might help us understand!!

Best,
« Last Edit: August 20, 2024, 08:38:35 pm by mawyatt »
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Online tautech

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Re: SPD3303X Hiccup
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2024, 09:22:59 pm »
Here's a thermal image of the Bridge Rectifier with heatsink and area around, things are very warm including the caps. However the one cap isn't bulging, it's just the angle of the image. The Max Temp is the T0-92 device (Regulator?).


After about 4~5 days, we haven't experienced a reset.
:-+
Quote
Could someone with a new 3303 post a thermal image of this area to compare temperatures temperature distribution?
Rectifier stage has been reworked now Mike:



The only reason we've had to lift the covers on these PSU's are for bridge failures yet early units gave zero problems.
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Offline thm_w

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Re: SPD3303X Hiccup
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2024, 09:44:21 pm »
a quantitative measurement using IR won't be possible.
First you would have to determine the emission factor, secondly you're measuring a metal (the heatsink) which has a low emission and therefore hard to measure by IR.
A (qualitative) measurement with the same IR camera from the same angle would give a representative impression of the heat that is generated over there.

Have you ever actually used an IR camera? Black anodized aluminum has an emissivity of 0.82-0.86. Which is fine. Even if it wasn't you can see the plastic package right underneath (would be around 0.9).

https://www.design1st.com/Design-Resource-Library/engineering_data/ThermalEmissivityValues.pdf
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Offline mawyattTopic starter

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Re: SPD3303X Hiccup
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2024, 10:49:50 pm »
Here's a thermal image of the Bridge Rectifier with heatsink and area around, things are very warm including the caps. However the one cap isn't bulging, it's just the angle of the image. The Max Temp is the T0-92 device (Regulator?).


After about 4~5 days, we haven't experienced a reset.
:-+
Quote
Could someone with a new 3303 post a thermal image of this area to compare temperatures temperature distribution?
Rectifier stage has been reworked now Mike:



The only reason we've had to lift the covers on these PSU's are for bridge failures yet early units gave zero problems.

Certainly a bigger bridge rectifier!! Where is the TO-92 component located?

A good thermal image of this area would be useful to see how things are distributed wrt version we have.

Best,
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Online tautech

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Re: SPD3303X Hiccup
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2024, 11:31:17 pm »
Certainly a bigger bridge rectifier!! Where is the TO-92 component located?
Sorry Mike, dunno and as old HW is a straightforward fix we aren't stocking any new PCB's to get an image from.
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Offline TheDefpom

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Re: SPD3303X Hiccup
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2024, 12:00:56 am »
Reworked but still got caps right next to something that gets hot... This is a pet peeve of mine, I come across it all of the time, designers putting capacitors right next to heat sinks or things that get hot, even moving the caps 10mm further away would make such a huge difference !

WHY do people design things so it heats the caps up, this makes them fail much sooner... so instead of lasting 20 years it might last 10.
Cheers Scott

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Re: SPD3303X Hiccup
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2024, 12:08:23 am »
Reworked but still got caps right next to something that gets hot...
But does it ?

Until someone places a TC on the new bridge or does an IR measurement we just don't know..
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Offline Sorama

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Re: SPD3303X Hiccup
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2024, 09:35:23 am »
a quantitative measurement using IR won't be possible.
First you would have to determine the emission factor, secondly you're measuring a metal (the heatsink) which has a low emission and therefore hard to measure by IR.
A (qualitative) measurement with the same IR camera from the same angle would give a representative impression of the heat that is generated over there.

Have you ever actually used an IR camera? Black anodized aluminum has an emissivity of 0.82-0.86. Which is fine. Even if it wasn't you can see the plastic package right underneath (would be around 0.9).

https://www.design1st.com/Design-Resource-Library/engineering_data/ThermalEmissivityValues.pdf

 As a L2 Thermographer I use Flir IR cameras all day long.
So yes.

Emission of 0,8x is rather low, so measured temperature is pretty off.
TS wants to see the impact of the heat on the other components, but they do have very different emission factors (like the blinking alu cover of a capacitor).
I bet emission factor of the used camera was not even set to what it should be.

So even if it gives ‘nice’ ir pictures, they certainly won’t tell much (actually nothing at all) about the individual temperature of components.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2024, 09:51:13 am by Sorama »
 

Offline MathWizard

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Re: SPD3303X Hiccup
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2024, 10:33:12 am »
How much dusst builds up in these Siglent machines? I own a few now, including a PSU, it's time I take it apart again and see if it needs vacuuming out.

Overall I'm very happy with my SPD3303X. I never really need high power, or anything that seems to stress it much. Someday, I should do some loads test with it on a scope, and maybe check a few temps.

I want to get another 1, or maybe the newer version.



Hey Tautech, I was trying to find some page to ask you about this memory upgrade to some very expensive Siglent scope. So markup's aside, is this just the price of some super fast memory, or do they upgrade other chips too ??
$4,500 maybe CAD, but thats still ~3,150USD
https://www.transcat.ca/brand/siglent-store/oscilloscope/siglent-sds7000a-1gpts-memory-depth-upgrade-to-1-gpts-for-sds7000a-oscilloscopes

Seems like a lot of money. And how does all the memory chips in these super expensive TE compare to GDDR6 like in the best GPU's money can buy ?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2024, 10:37:18 am by MathWizard »
 

Online tautech

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Re: SPD3303X Hiccup
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2024, 10:41:06 am »
Hey Tautech, I was trying to find some page to ask you about this memory upgrade to some very expensive Siglent scope. So markup's aside, is this just the price of some super fast memory, or do they upgrade other chips too ??
$4,500 maybe CAD, but thats still ~3,150USD
https://www.transcat.ca/brand/siglent-store/oscilloscope/siglent-sds7000a-1gpts-memory-depth-upgrade-to-1-gpts-for-sds7000a-oscilloscopes

Seems like a lot of money. And how does all the memory chips in these super expensive TE compare to GDDR6 like in the best GPU's money can buy ?
The 1GB memory depth license is just a SW switch, albeit an expensive one but probably priced to undercut opposition.
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Offline ebastler

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Re: SPD3303X Hiccup
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2024, 12:50:01 pm »
[...] this memory upgrade to some very expensive Siglent scope. So markup's aside, is this just the price of some super fast memory, or do they upgrade other chips too ??

The price is determined by the fact that Siglent knows you could afford the SDS7000. So you must be able to afford an expensive memory upgrade too. ::)

Another way to look at it is what tautech wrote: It's enough for Siglent to price it a bit lower than the high-end competition. Then the price is no longer considered a rip-off but "in line with the market".
 

Offline mawyattTopic starter

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Re: SPD3303X Hiccup
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2024, 08:13:12 pm »
Update on the heatsink use.

Just had another "Hiccup", so this isn't solving the bridge rectifier overheating problem.

Now we'll need to replace the rectifier as we are out of the 3 year warranty period  :(

Best,
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Online tautech

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Re: SPD3303X Hiccup
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2024, 08:23:27 pm »
Update on the heatsink use.

Just had another "Hiccup", so this isn't solving the bridge rectifier overheating problem.

Now we'll need to replace the rectifier as we are out of the 3 year warranty period  :(

Best,
Another replacement bridge fitment solution using a standoff popped up a day or so back here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-spd3303x-power-supply-turn-off-and-on-all-the-time/

There's 2 connectors from the front PCB to Power PCB that can be swapped so take care to mark them so they don't get swapped.
Full removal and refitting of the front PCB is straightforward other than that.
IIRC you will require 3 sizes of Torx drivers.
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