SDS800X HD Wanted Features

[eTobey]

...
I had a PM from a member asking what my reply meant.

The 2 attached screenshots reveal these menu setting changes and how they impact on the display.

I wrote you a PM on purpose: To keep this noise out of this topic. 

Took me quite a few seconds to find the differences in the two screens. Your suggestion does not apply to the infos of the mask test (it will not be hidden), this is why i did not understand.

[eTobey]

And different clas of other things what can make UX (user experiance about UI) better or worse but what are not bugs.

Yes, if something looks like a bug, then it is worth treating it like one (tweaking it), and not leave confused users behind.

[tautech]

And different clas of other things what can make UX (user experiance about UI) better or worse but what are not bugs.

Yes, if something looks like a bug, then it is worth treating it like one (tweaking it), and not leave confused users behind.

You overlook this UI has been in service since release of the SDS5000X range in 2019.
Then SDS2000X Plus, SDS2000X HD, SDS6000A, SDS7000A and finally the 3 further series that were released together at end of Feb, SDS3000X HD, SDS1000X HD and SDS800X HD.

Of these only SDS7000A, SDS3000X HD and SDS2000X HD I have not owned, not handled, owned !

Typically I find grandma's don't like being told how they should suck eggs. 
They already know.

[ebastler]

You overlook this UI has been in service since release of the SDS5000X range in 2019.
Then SDS2000X Plus, SDS2000X HD, SDS6000A, SDS7000A and finally the 3 further series that were released together at end of Feb, SDS3000X HD, SDS1000X HD and SDS800X HD.

Typically I find grandma's don't like being told how they should suck eggs. 
They already know.

Could you please stop using this argument? Using it for the hundredth time does not make it more valid. There is no reason to assume that there can't be consistent weaknesses in the UI in all these scopes.

E.g. one of my personal favorites: Why do I have to carefully navigate my mouse over the scroll bar (of a list or a menu) before I can use the scroll wheel? No operating system I am aware of does it that way; it's always sufficient to hover anywhere over the list. I assume all Siglent scopes of this generation behave like that -- if so, it is clearly a UI weakness in all of them.

Edit, to clarify: The question "Would this change break existing user habits?" is a valid one to ask. But the claim "We don't need any change proposals; the UI is so long-established that is must be perfect!" is nonsense.

[eTobey]

Typically I find grandma's don't like being told how they should suck eggs. 
They already know.

This is not a constructive argument! You can do things wrong (or inefficiently) for 20 years and say "there is no better way". Just think of it.

You just elevated my frustration level!

[2N3055]

And different clas of other things what can make UX (user experiance about UI) better or worse but what are not bugs.

Yes, if a feature looks like a bug, then it is worth treating it like one, and not leave confused users behind.

Yes, but that is only if it looks like a bug to everybody (or at least many people).
If something is done so badly that it is unusable or there is obviously better way to do something, than improvement is in order...

We must be able to distinct between these categories:

1.- bugs (defects, when device calculate wrong or levels are not right)
2.- improvements (it works correctly i.e. gives proper results, but some part of it can be improved, be it  improvements in how things are displayed, or even full workflow of some option)
3.- optimizations (this is similar to improvements but more specifically optimizing some parts that are not visible to user that result in faster performance, better accuracy, less memory used or so)
4.- new features (adding things that didn't exist previously, and are basically a gift from manufacturer that enhance value of instrument after the fact)

No 1 is hard responsibility of manufacturers. That one they owe to users. They take it seriously (Siglent, I mean) and have to put in the effort to fix them.
Instrument that has No 1. fixed (i.e. no bugs) is trusty and gives good results.
This category is only one manufacturer owes to you.

2 and 3 are things that makes things faster/ easier. Always good but those are optimizations. Sometimes important and sometimes not, more like nice to have. Manufacturers do care for these because if gains are visible and useful it enhances attractiveness of products. But it is not required or owed to anybody. Even if idea is not bad, but would require major rewrite and benefits only 5% of users it likely won't be implemented.
Engineering is solving real world problems with real world tools, within knowledge/economic/technical restraints. Not all combinations are possible.
It might get implemented for next generation though.

No 4. is, as I said, pure gift from manufacturer. Say thank you.
Sometimes somebody calls out for wish, and manufactures recognize good idea that is possible.
And they decide to implement it to make their products more attractive and competitive.
Users benefit from this, manufacturer too. Win-Win.

Confusing these categories makes it more confusing for everybody. It might make it look that there are many bugs (where in fact, there are not). But that is a problem for Siglent marketing. Not my concern here.

But it is dangerous because it clouds the issues, and creates confusion.
That confusion results in getting harder to "see the forest from the trees".
It makes it harder for manufacturer actually fix bugs (that are critical) and also harder to get proper message of 3 other categories.

If you want efficient solutions, you need well formed, well defined, questions and requirements.

[eTobey]

Suggestion:
I found this nice feature, where you can actually move those informations of the gate (red arrows). To bad it cant be done with the other (blue arrows). See picture attached.

While investigating it, i found that clicking on the red and green measure lines, the cursor menu opens, which is very distracting as it lets the window/waveform jump, when the menu opens as "embedded". Yes, i know, i can do a workaround to get rid of that jumping, but this is scratchin on the left ear with your right hand... This is the same looks like the problem i describe, when pushing the knob for changing the cursor does open the menu. (without measure mode).

[tautech]

Why do I have to carefully navigate my mouse over the scroll bar (of a list or a menu) before I can use the scroll wheel? No operating system I am aware of does it that way; it's always sufficient to hover anywhere over the list. I assume all Siglent scopes of this generation behave like that -- if so, it is clearly a UI weakness in all of them.

I'm not a great fan of this behavior either however I understand why it works on this way as if you scrolled down the menu there is chance you can change a value in one of the input fields.

An improvement would be to have a slightly wider scroll bar and on the left side of the menu, not against the far edge of the display.

So I've learnt to click and drag....

[electronics hobbyist]

If you enable Show statistics, it shows it is not counting.  If you enable [Stop on fail] it will not exit Mask mode but only stop testing.

It shows counting, but what if an event takes a dozend of seconds to appear? Than you wait that long?
Efficient would be you just beeing able to tell with a quick glimpse, if it is activated.

Like I said, if that is important, just keep the menu open then. But as I said, I'm not against another line in info that would signal current state. It cannot hurt.

Agree, I think this is an improvement, so I added Wanted Feature No.31 earlier. Small improvements will make the product better and better.

[electronics hobbyist]

While investigating it, i found that clicking on the red and green measure lines, the cursor menu opens, which is very distracting as it lets the window/waveform jump, when the menu opens as "embedded". Yes, i know, i can do a workaround to get rid of that jumping, but this is scratchin on the left ear with your right hand... This is the same problem i describe, when pushing the knob for changing the cursor does open the menu. (without measure mode).

This is Wanted Feature No.24, and hope you can get it in the next version.

[eTobey]

Yes, but that is only if it looks like a bug to everybody (or at least many people).

That does not need to be said, as it should be understood by itself.

If something is done so badly that it is unusable or there is obviously better way to do something, than improvement is in order...

Saving one or two clicks is a better way for me, but i think for some this is just nothing. But thought further, it adds up if:
- you do it hundrets of times
- you add those clicks that have been missed in case of a UI issue or just some aiming issues
- you take into account other aspects of it, if one would miss it, and hit another button get confused...


I must admit, that i did not completely read all your text, but for this topic, id say there is no need to differenziate between optimization and performance.

To have a better overview, we can play with formatting text like this:

Bug:

Suggestion:

Feature:

Look how nice these colors are, not like those pale ones on some scopes

[2N3055]

[
I must admit, that i did not completely read all your text, but for this topic, id say there is no need to differenziate between optimization and performance.

Then, politely, please DO read it all..

There is absolutely need to differentiate those 4 categories because they define priorities and solution domains.

[eTobey]

There is absolutely need to differentiate those 4 categories because they define priorities and solution domains.

That message could have been a PM (BTW. you got me message blocked...) already. There were complaints about noise, but i dont see anyone actually try to reduce noise. No, this is not meant to be personal. This could be said to others to, but i try to keep the noise down.

Back to the topic:
Did you read, that i only referred to catergory 2 and 3? I think this differentiation does only matter for siglent.

[eTobey]

I'm not a great fan of this behavior either however I understand why it works on this way as if you scrolled down the menu there is chance you can change a value in one of the input fields.

An improvement would be to have a slightly wider scroll bar and on the left side of the menu, not against the far edge of the display.

So I've learnt to click and drag....

You missed the point. Its not about this example, its about the attitude you think about this.

And as the example has brought in, i give my two cents for it:
If its a problem in the menu, then fine, it should not be changed, but i guess its not a problem in a list is it?

I would have been very dissapointed, if i would have found these issues on a more expensive one.

[2N3055]

Did you read, that i only referred to catergory 2 and 3? I think this differentiation does only matter for siglent.

It does not matter only to Siglent.

It helps clearly define things for Siglent.
Which is in mutual benefit....

We want bugs resolved with highest priority and as fast as possible. So does Siglent.

We want to clearly separate things where there can be silent upgrades in the background and those where large changes are needed including GUI and documentation, and Application notes, and more documentation.
Those obviously need different type of effort and will go into decision pipeline differently.

Clear, unambiguous, simple  questions are needed for clear, unambiguous and simple answers.

A smart mechanical engineer, before final design of a part, goes and consults with his machinist (a person that will actually carve a part out of block of aluminum) what operations are possible and which are not, and what special notes it has to put in production blueprints to ensure he gets a part he needs.

We gain nothing by insisting on confusing Siglent with what is basically an unorganized brainstorming session.
We throw a bag of sentences with everything from failed ideas (there will be those too) to serious problems all mixed together with a blender. Therefore adding to confusion and adding additional job of sifting, interpreting, sorting etc to Siglent.
Sure, we can do that.

But that is most inefficient (slowest) way to do it and it also leaves things open to interpretation (read misinterpretation)
 
If you do things the right way, it guarantees both speed and defined results, i.e. we get what we asked for and not what someone figured what we meant from our confused request.

[Performa01]

E.g. one of my personal favorites: Why do I have to carefully navigate my mouse over the scroll bar (of a list or a menu) before I can use the scroll wheel? No operating system I am aware of does it that way; it's always sufficient to hover anywhere over the list. I assume all Siglent scopes of this generation behave like that -- if so, it is clearly a UI weakness in all of them.

While not all feature requests are realistic (maybe because the requester lacks insight in the software architecture and restraints and cannot understand the consequences of some "simple change"), your "personal favourite" is not only a valid complaint but it should also be possible to fix.

Siglent will consider it.

[ebastler]

While investigating it, i found that clicking on the red and green measure lines, the cursor menu opens, which is very distracting as it lets the window/waveform jump, when the menu opens as "embedded". Yes, i know, i can do a workaround to get rid of that jumping, but this is scratchin on the left ear with your right hand... This is the same problem i describe, when pushing the knob for changing the cursor does open the menu. (without measure mode).

This is Wanted Feature No.24, and hope you can get it in the next version.

Good news, thank you! Being able to toggle through the cursors without calling up the menu as a side effect will be very welcome, since it makes for a more distraction-free workflow. And it is nice to learn that some "category 2 improvements", in 2N3055's nomenclature, will make it to the new firmware. 

[eTobey]

A smart mechanical engineer, before final design of a part, goes and consults with his machinist ...

Have an old machinist and try making him to do something new... I tell you what: that is a challenge! Especially when you should not make him unhappy, as he would call in sick immediatly. 

I just came up with the idea of having different behaviour profiles like those:
- "We have it always done like this" (Stay with the old behaviour)
- "This stuff is good" (new features/behaviour that have been approved by a greater number of users)
- "I am ready to try new things" (brandnew things)
- "This is ridiciulous, but i give it a try" (beta testing?)

Yes, i know it would be quite a bit of work (really?), but it will be for many models. It is also possible to do it slightly different. Find a way, not an excuse. And dont be afraid of a bit of work if it will pay off in the long run.

And please do not try to start an argument about all things that dont work. Yes there are those, i am fully aware of it.

[eTobey]

I made another topic for disccusions:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds800x-hd-featureimprovment-disscusions/

[eTobey]

Improvement:
This is nothing new, but should be addressed im my opinion (on the whole UI):
I encountered other buttons that can easily be missed (See pictures attached). And i think there are much more of those.
There is a lot of space on the left column, so the source selection could be quite big.

[eTobey]

I want perfect scales, because i want perfect results. How about you? Do you care?
It got me confused quite a bit...

Minor Issue:
Scale of histogram (both axes) are not optimal.
How can you count something 25.2 times? 

The scale should - in this case - start at 0 and should be in us for this scale.

Edit:
Also the numbers on the bottom scale are not aligned with the grid tics.

Edit 2:
(second picture) The scale cant decide wether it should be ms or us.  It does change all the time. Its numbers are not optimal either...
Who can tell, if this single pole in the middle is negative or positive? I dont not trust that grid tic to be 0!

[eTobey]

Feature suggestion:
Measurment mode:
- When long click on the measurement table, activate its measurement cursors.
- When cursors for measurement are activated, show what table it belongs to. Have a red rectangle around the table or soemthing.

Another thing:
Its kinda hard to hit the histogram to open it.


Suggestion:
There should be an LFxx and an LRxx for measurements.

Any workarounds would be much appreciated in the other discussions thread i made.

[Martin72]

Hi all,

EDIT: Title changed

FYI

[ebastler]

Now we have two feature suggestion threads for this scope -- this one here, and https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds800x-hd-featureimprovment-disscusions/.

Which one do we want to use going forward? This one since it has more "critical mass", or the new one for a clean start? Should the other thread be locked to avoid crossed wires?

[electronics hobbyist]

Now we have two feature suggestion threads for this scope -- this one here, and https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds800x-hd-featureimprovment-disscusions/.

Which one do we want to use going forward? This one since it has more "critical mass", or the new one for a clean start? Should the other thread be locked to avoid crossed wires?

My original plan was to discuss Improvements and Wanted Features in this thread