SDS800X HD - Issue disscusions - is it me, or the scope?

[eTobey]

We said and said repeatedly:  nobody is going to solve your puzzles.
Explain yourself better or you get what you get.
You could have explained that at 20ms/in particular you get this shorter length.
At 20ms/div it seems that scope organizes data as if all 4 channels are on even when they are not.
It might be necessary because of how internal data pump works at that sample rate or maybe it can be optimized.
Will ask.

But you still need to work on your communication....

These are not my puzzles! These are my confusions that come from bugs, inconsistent behaviour of the scope at many places and confusing errors in the manual.

Can you just acknowledge, that you were wrong with "And for instance, with 2 ch on as you go through timebases once you reach 50Mpts, it will start alternating between 40 and 50 MPts."? It wont wont hurt, trust me, i did it myself.

[eTobey]

Off course it is meant to be rude...  The hint is in a tone and actual rude words you use...
Read occasionally your own signature...

Hint it was a typo... I wasn't wearing glases and didn't notice there is no minus sign.. Fixed now.

You may have gotten that tone wrong. But what is the actual "rude" word? I just expressed my feelings, and just why its is so.

If you have made a typo, it should be clear, that this sentence does not apply anymore, and there is no need of further discussion...

Let me try to explain, and now I ask you to not get offended.

To me it seems you can't hardly wait to see something that can used to argue to start arguing.

If someone corrects you and then writes same as you it is either a mistake or the other side didn't take their meds.
Both are good reason not to react with "AHAAAAA I have you now!!!!!!".

That kind of reaction is not truth seeking but an effort to embarrass somebody.

This is not a competition.
If in doubt, clarify...

Please try to forget what there was before, and answer my simple question.

[rf-loop]

Contradictory findings:
Either the manual is wrong or the scope shows wrong values. I can only count like a few dozent of points.

The timebase also does not show all the time 50Mpts if you zoom out  its sometimes 20 or 40 Mpts.

Should be exactly 20 points, right? 200 ns total sweep time, 100 MSa/s, so 20 Samples in 200 ns. You can see the individual data points when you switch the display mode to "Dot".

Did you acquire that data with a much slower time base, then stop and zoom in? In that case, the number of number of samples indicated in the info box might be the number of samples acquired in the sweep, rather than the number of samples shown on-screen at the moment? (I don't have access to my scope at the moment.) The manual would be incorrect in that case.

If the above hypothesis is right, I would probably prefer the scope to behave like stated in the manual, i.e. always tell me how many data points are behind the trace I see on-screen at the moment. In which case this would be a bug or improvement request.

User manual need some correction.

In this case it is ok for runtime. Runtime, info box bottom row tell acquisition sampling speed and length (points) what is also same as points "behind" one acquistion.
But what you see on screen. Runtime there also can be overlaid several, even thousends of acquisitions depending current wfm/s speed. So we can not tell how many data points are behind visible runtime trace what you see on display. (there is not good way to tell how many dots are behind visible DPO trace in runtime and also this kind of info is useless. )

After oscilloscope is stopped. Independent of stop mode zoom in/zoom out,  information box bottom row tell acquisition sampling speed and length (points) when it was captured in runtime and on stop mode it continue displaying it independent of current t/div.
But in stop mode, info box top row tell current displayed t/div and also time position, example when pan and zoom in when stop mode. So you know "where you are".

In this particular case @eTobey have made acquistion using 20ms/div, 20Mpts length and 100MSa/s.
Then he stop scope and zoomed in by  1/1000000. And also info box tell now his current displayed t/div is 20ns  and he have 100MSa/s sample rate so he have sample interval 1/100000000 s (10ns) and there is data points just with this interval, exactly (not just @eTobey red arrows pointed).   And he have there 20Mpts.  Original runtime display width was 200ms  and now when he have stop and zoom in... he have 20ns/div so his display width is 200ns, extremely narrov slice from whole acquisition length. And all data in info box is true. (after understand what is meaning of its bottom row. Just store it your mind and after then never need ask or wonder. This permanent burn to memory between ears take <1 second and it need do only once).


What need now improve. Least need fix this explanation in User Manual so that also Acquisition Stop state is included (or just tell that in Run time it display...).

[eTobey]

User manual need some correction.

Needs a lot more...

RTFM they said... 

[Martin72]

RTFM they said...

This is the first thing you should do.
Although for me the order of priority is more like this:
-try it out
-Does not work as expected
-Then read the manual first
 

[ebastler]

What you saying is not improvement or bug.
Scope shows sampled, acquired points, not current screen points.
What is purpose of useless metric of current screen?

I don't know about "useless". When showing interpolated traces (as I normally do), I appreciate the hint how many datapoints are actually used to generate the curve I see. Yes, I know I can calculate them by multiplying sample rate * sweep time, but an obvious number is helpful.

But I can also see the value in displaying the total number of acquired points, even if I have zoomed in and see just a fraction of them. Gives me a better idea about what to expect from measurements, for example.

In any case, either the firmware or the manual need to be changed. At the moment they are inconsistent, as the manual claims that the data points indicate the number of points shown on-screen. And that inconsistency is what eTobey had pointed out.

[eTobey]

I just want to write this, so others could self-reflect, and see how well this conversation went:
I made a statement, that something was contradictory in the manual:

This is a summary (drastically shortened, because i like it short):
User 1: Your observation is completely wrong.
Me: Dude, youre wrong.
User 1: You are rude! [User 1 made a mistake because he was not wearing his glasses]
User 2: The answer is staring you in the face... [no further clarification to my actual observation]
User 3: User manual need some correction. [some lengthy explaination followed - yes i am thankful for that, but i really like it short much more ;-)]
User 4: RTFM [i did, and it actually brought up this issue *facepalm*]

Again there was so much text and quotes. "A lot of noise".

[rf-loop]

Contradictory findings:
Either the manual is wrong or the scope shows wrong values. I can only count like a few dozent of points.

This manual is first version (EN01A)
It have many kind of things what can be better and it also have some detected errors and may have errors and inaccuracies what have not detected or noted. It need also know that manual updates are many times lot of behind oscilloscope FW updates, specially with products just launched.

This is not official but perhaps there can be something like this for just this case.

[KungFuJosh]

You are dead wrong!

Rude.

This is not meant to be rude: but i really get frustrated

It was rude, and your frustration is the result of your lack of understanding (in combination with some errors in the manual 😉). It doesn't matter that he made a typo. You don't need to be a dick about it. Your behavior here is quite abrasive. That's not acceptable, especially when you're seeking help and understanding from people that owe you nothing. Errors in the manual or not, makes no difference. Don't treat people that way.

[eTobey]

You are dead wrong!

Rude.

This is not meant to be rude: but i really get frustrated

It was rude, and your frustration is the result of your lack of understanding (in combination with some errors in the manual 😉). It doesn't matter that he made a typo. You don't need to be a dick about it. Your behavior here is quite abrasive.

I used google to translate, and i didnt find the translation rude at all.

Its quite easy to say someone has a lack of understanding, but i asked you in other posts why you would think that, but then there was just silence. No arguments... just insults.

[eTobey]

Contradictory findings:
Either the manual is wrong or the scope shows wrong values. I can only count like a few dozent of points.

The timebase also does not show all the time 50Mpts if you zoom out  its sometimes 20 or 40 Mpts.

Should be exactly 20 points, right? 200 ns total sweep time, 100 MSa/s, so 20 Samples in 200 ns. You can see the individual data points when you switch the display mode to "Dot".

Did you acquire that data with a much slower time base, then stop and zoom in? In that case, the number of number of samples indicated in the info box might be the number of samples acquired in the sweep, rather than the number of samples shown on-screen at the moment? (I don't have access to my scope at the moment.) The manual would be incorrect in that case.

If the above hypothesis is right, I would probably prefer the scope to behave like stated in the manual, i.e. always tell me how many data points are behind the trace I see on-screen at the moment. In which case this would be a bug or improvement request.

User manual need some correction.
...

Thank you for beeing professional.

[KungFuJosh]

You are dead wrong!

Rude.

This is not meant to be rude: but i really get frustrated

It was rude, and your frustration is the result of your lack of understanding (in combination with some errors in the manual 😉). It doesn't matter that he made a typo. You don't need to be a dick about it. Your behavior here is quite abrasive.

I used google to translate, and i didnt find the translation rude at all.

Its quite easy to say someone has a lack of understanding, but i asked you in other posts why you would think that, but then there was just silence. No arguments... just insults.

Fine, I'll bite.

Rude: "You are dead wrong!"
Not rude: "I don't agree with your answer..." or "That doesn't make sense to me."

You have a habit of pointing attacks at people, rather than asking appropriate questions to better help you understand what's happening.

[eTobey]

Fine, I'll bite.

Rude: "You are dead wrong!"
Not rude: "I don't agree with your answer..." or "That doesn't make sense to me."

You have a habit of pointing attacks at people, rather than asking appropriate questions to better help you understand what's happening.

After looking again at the translation, i found that it introduced other words too. 
Now i can not argue that what i wrote was not rude, the only thing i can say, that it was not my intention.

He was wrong in both of his statements after all.

[eTobey]

How am i supposed to set up a level and edge at the same time?

I got the trigger only to work when setting CH2 to high and edge to falling. I guess after high there is probably a falling edge following anyway?

[tautech]

How am i supposed to set up a level and edge at the same time?

Are you looking at the scope directly or the webserver control ?

There are 2 adjustment methods but only 1 can be used from the webserver.
Hint, one is a virtual keypad.

[ebastler]

How am i supposed to set up a level and edge at the same time?

I got the trigger only to work when setting CH2 to high and edge to falling. I guess after high there is probably a falling edge following anyway?

Sorry, I don't follow. What do your signals look like? (They seem to be hidden behind the trigger dialog). What do you want to achieve? What settings did you try? What happened, and how does it differ from what you expected to happen?

I find it confusing that the "Source A" setting for the Delay trigger comprises an edge polarity selection at all. I understood Source A to be purely state-dependent (and there is the dialog you show, which allows to set the state.) Then there is Source B, which is an edge trigger, so that one should have (and has) and edge polarity selection. But what does the edge selection for port A do? -- Is that what you were asking too, or is it something else? 

[eTobey]

I find it confusing that the "Source A" setting for the Delay trigger comprises an edge polarity selection at all. I understood Source A to be purely state-dependent (and there is the dialog you show, which allows to set the state.)

I am confused too. But i think it can be combined with states of other channels, but the manual just lacks this information?

[eTobey]

Are you looking at the scope directly or the webserver control ?

There are 2 adjustment methods but only 1 can be used from the webserver.
Hint, one is a virtual keypad.

It took me a while to get what you mean by that. It took so long, because i did not consider that you would actually think, that i would not know how to put in the numbers. 

[ebastler]

I find it confusing that the "Source A" setting for the Delay trigger comprises an edge polarity selection at all. I understood Source A to be purely state-dependent (and there is the dialog you show, which allows to set the state.)

I am confused too. But i think it can be combined with states of other channels, but the manual just lacks this information?

An Edge on the channel specified as "source B" will only be detected if one or more channels specified as "source A" are in a certain State (and have been in this state for a defined time). That is my understanding of the functionality.

There is no edge on source A involved, as far as I understand. And that's the part which confuses me, because I can set one in the UI. I am not ruling out the possibility that I misunderstand the UI; it's getting late here...

[eTobey]

An Edge on the channel specified as "source B" will only be detected if one or more channels specified as "source A" are in a certain State (and have been in this state for a defined time). That is my understanding of the functionality.

There is no edge on source A involved, as far as I understand. And that's the part which confuses me, because I can set one in the UI. I am not ruling out the possibility that I misunderstand the UI; it's getting late here...

The manual "shows" an edge of source A, and only one single source for source A.

[ebastler]

An Edge on the channel specified as "source B" will only be detected if one or more channels specified as "source A" are in a certain State (and have been in this state for a defined time). That is my understanding of the functionality.

There is no edge on source A involved, as far as I understand. And that's the part which confuses me, because I can set one in the UI. I am not ruling out the possibility that I misunderstand the UI; it's getting late here...

The manual "shows" an edge of source A, and only one single source for source A.

That "edge" is just where the existence of the required state begins (and hence the time over which the state needs to persist) -- again, my interpretation.

But source A can clearly comprise multiple channels; the manual only shows one for simplicity. The dialog you showed above illustrates the selection and state definition of those channels. The manual also refers to the pattern trigger for an explanation of that part.

[eTobey]

Pattern trigger....
From the manual i would translate: "triggers when the set conditions are gone".
Well that trigger would be kinda late then, wouldnt it?

[ebastler]

Pattern trigger....
From the manual i would translate: "triggers when the set conditions are gone".
Well that trigger would be kinda late then, wouldnt it?

I have not used this trigger type yet, but strongly expect that it behaves as described in the manual. After all, you can also set a timing requirement for the pattern, and that can include "time must be shorter than x" or "time must be between x and y". How would the scope know without having seen the full pulse?

You can always construct a trigger condition which occurs after a very short time, or you can invert the combined signal's polarity and hence get the trigger event on the opposite edge, right?

[electronics hobbyist]

What you saying is not improvement or bug.
Scope shows sampled, acquired points, not current screen points.
What is purpose of useless metric of current screen?

I don't know about "useless". When showing interpolated traces (as I normally do), I appreciate the hint how many datapoints are actually used to generate the curve I see. Yes, I know I can calculate them by multiplying sample rate * sweep time, but an obvious number is helpful.

But I can also see the value in displaying the total number of acquired points, even if I have zoomed in and see just a fraction of them. Gives me a better idea about what to expect from measurements, for example.

In any case, either the firmware or the manual need to be changed. At the moment they are inconsistent, as the manual claims that the data points indicate the number of points shown on-screen. And that inconsistency is what eTobey had pointed out.

I will try to answer this question based on my experience. If it is not correct, please correct me.

Let me first explain the conclusion: This information is useful, but whether it needs to be added to the UI requires discussing some details

Some machines from Keysight and Tektronix do not even display number of points, indicating that over 90% of people do not care about this information, What I mean is not that Siglent should not be ambitious, but rather that this priority is very low..

If Siglent wants to become one of the top few in the world, they need to consider these details. The current question is where are these information placed?

I think Yokogawa provides a good solution:
-The number of points in the stop state is displayed through a prompt message and disappears after a few seconds
-Yokogawa has Zoom 1 and Zoom 2. When opening Zoom, the number of points in the Zoom window is fixed on the screen. Of course, some people do not like to occupy screen space, so whether to display optional options is a solution

Additionally, the description in the manual that may be misleading should be revised.

[ebastler]

Let me first explain the conclusion: This information is useful, but whether it needs to be added to the UI requires discussing some details
[...]
Additionally, the description in the manual that may be misleading should be revised.

I didn't mean to suggest that another output should be added to the UI. The discussion was whether the existing number in the timebase information box is meant to show the number of data points in the whole capture, or the number of data points currently on the screen -- because the manual and current implementation are at odds here.

I had stated stated why my preference would the the number of data points on the screen, and was not too happy that 2N3055 disqualified it as "useless". But frankly I don't feel it's that important -- in RUN mode, while I set up the acquisition mode details, the two interpretations are the same anyway. So the main conclusion is that the manual should be corrected to reflect the actual scope behaviour; no need to change the UI.

Just out of curiosity and because I might be able to learn something: What do people use the "total data points in the acquisition" information for?