Author Topic: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread  (Read 36272 times)

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Online Mortymore

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #75 on: February 24, 2024, 01:04:44 pm »
Hi!

I have a couple of questions that address the probe settings, namely, about "custom" in the "Probe attenuation" setting, and if it's possible to set the probe for current.

The datasheet for the SDS800X-HD (pg.10) and for the SDS1000X-HD (pg.9), states for Probe attenuation the options: 1X, 10X, 100X and custom. The flexibility of this last option is very important to me to set proper values on the oscilloscope, when monitoring IV from an SDL1000. The IV output ranges up to 10v, independently of the voltage or current scale set in the SDL.

So, for a current scale of 5A, the scope should be set for an attenuation of 0.5X, that is, when measuring 5A, the SLD is outputting through I.monitor 10V. If one can set a multiplier of 0.5X and Current instead of voltage, the scope will "translate" de correct interpretation of what's being measured.

My IDS2000E, can do this partially. I can set the channel to display Amps, instead of Volts, but the probe attenuation is only available in multiple steps of 1X, 2X and 5X.
Since the SDL has a scale of 36V;150V, to display the correct voltage the scope would need an attenuation factor of 3.6X;15X, and for Amps 30A;5A a factor of 3X;0.5X. I only have available the latest on my scope.



Hope I manage to transmit the idea.
I would appreciate if someone could clarify about the options available to the probe settings for the SDS800X-HD/SDS1000X-HD.
Sorry if there's a picture were that was already shown, or talked about, that I have missed.

I'll take the opportunity to thank Performa01 for is initiative and gigantic work on this thread.
Thanks
« Last Edit: February 24, 2024, 01:18:53 pm by Mortymore »
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #76 on: February 24, 2024, 02:15:14 pm »
Quote
I'll take the opportunity to thank Performa01 for is initiative and gigantic work on this thread.

Me too, and I suggest you move this question to the other, more general SDS800 thread. :-+

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds800x-hd-12-bit-dsos-coming/

Online Mortymore

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #77 on: February 24, 2024, 02:58:28 pm »
Quote
I'll take the opportunity to thank Performa01 for is initiative and gigantic work on this thread.

Me too, and I suggest you move this question to the other, more general SDS800 thread. :-+

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds800x-hd-12-bit-dsos-coming/

Thanks for the suggestion but I'd prefer to get the answer here, were the 800-HD functionality is being address, than mix it up with the colour opinions chat  ;)
If that's OK for the OP and moderators, naturally.

If my questions were answered, it will serve us all I expect. Besides the intention is to know if it will be able to match the Siglent scopes functionality with the Siglent Loads potential.
If not, I hope it will be considered by Siglent in the future the ability to set the inputs of the scope as a current probe, and get to show Amps, not only Volts, since I expect the ratio option thing is doable with the existing "custom" option.

Regards

Offline Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #78 on: February 24, 2024, 03:40:04 pm »
Hi,
Usermanual, chapter 11.2, channel setup...

https://www.batronix.com/files/Siglent/Oszilloskope/SDS2000X-HD/Datasheets/SDS2000X_HD_UserManual_EN01A.pdf

It´s from the 2k HD, but should be the same.
 
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Online 2N3055

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #79 on: February 24, 2024, 04:15:31 pm »
Quote
I'll take the opportunity to thank Performa01 for is initiative and gigantic work on this thread.

Me too, and I suggest you move this question to the other, more general SDS800 thread. :-+

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds800x-hd-12-bit-dsos-coming/

Thanks for the suggestion but I'd prefer to get the answer here, were the 800-HD functionality is being address, than mix it up with the colour opinions chat  ;)
If that's OK for the OP and moderators, naturally.

If my questions were answered, it will serve us all I expect. Besides the intention is to know if it will be able to match the Siglent scopes functionality with the Siglent Loads potential.
If not, I hope it will be considered by Siglent in the future the ability to set the inputs of the scope as a current probe, and get to show Amps, not only Volts, since I expect the ratio option thing is doable with the existing "custom" option.

Regards

I don't think Siglent even has any scope they are making now that does not support choice if channel shows V or A...
And then you have custom probe scaling factor, fractional... 2 of them per channel.
And not only that, but if you make one channel V and other A and in math multiply them it show in watts..

 
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Online Performa01Topic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #80 on: February 24, 2024, 06:23:58 pm »
Custom Probe Factors

This is a demonstration how to use custom probe factors for current measurement.

Consider we want to measure current using channel 4 and this should be set up for a rather weird conversion factor of 0.1234567 amperes per volt. First thing to do would be changing the Channel units from Volts to Amperes:


SDS824X HD_Ch_Current_1V_A

Now we have set channel 4 to measure current at a conversion factor of 1 V/A (one volt per ampere), as it is displayed in the channel tab now. But in our example, we need a different conversion factor. Consequently, we enter the Probe menu:


SDS824X HD_Ch_Current_Probes

There is currently 1.0 V/A selected, and we can also get some more predefined probe factors, but not the one we want to use. Thankfully, there are also two permanent user settings. We can preset them to our most used custom probes and can use them just like the predefined ones from now on. Tapping on the user setting, we get the input keypad for the custom V/A setting:


SDS824X HD_Ch_Current_Probe_Input

Here we can enter any desired conversion factor from 1 µA/V up to 1 MA/V with at least 6 digits resolution. For example, here is 0.1234567 V/A:


SDS824X HD_Ch_Current_Probe_0.1234567

Here’s a measurement example: channel 1 is set to 1x voltage probe at 500 mV/div, whereas channel 4 is set to a custom probe at 4.05 A/div.


SDS824X HD_Ch_0.1234567_Power

During normal use, channel 4 would be set to 500 mV/div with a 1x voltage probe. The custom probe factor of 0.1234567 V/A is equivalent to 8.1000059 A/V. This multiplied by 500 mV/div results in 4.050003 A/div, just as it is displayed in the corresponding channel tab

Just for fun, I’ve set up a math operation, simply multiplying the two channels to get the power. Trace F1 shows a scaling of 8.1 W/div and a vertical offset of 0.0 W.

The measurements show the standard deviation (=AC-RMS) for channels 1 in volts and for channel 4 in amperes. Formula trace F1 shows the AC-RMS power in watts.


« Last Edit: February 24, 2024, 06:47:19 pm by Performa01 »
 
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Online Mortymore

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #81 on: February 24, 2024, 08:08:29 pm »
Thank you Martin72 and 2N3055 for your replies, and a special appreciation to Performa01 for taking the time to make such a detailed exposition of the probe settings.  :-+

Best regards
 
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Online Performa01Topic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #82 on: February 26, 2024, 10:08:45 am »
Dots Mode

Not every DSO has it, but Dots display mode is essential whenever the DSO gets near the limits of the sample theorem, hence signal reconstruction – or even acquisition itself – appears flawed.

As an example, consider a 12 MHz square wave with quite moderate 3 ns rise time, hence a perfectly adequate signal to a 200 MHz oscilloscope like the SDS824X HD.


SDS824X HD_Square_12MHz_3ns_1GSa_Vect

The screenshot above shows the standard use case: Auto memory with at least 10 Mpts max. record length, Sin(x)/x reconstruction, Vector display mode, no Color grading, Persistence off.

In 2 channel mode, where we get a sample rate of 1 GSa/s without aggressive AA-filter, the waveform looks pretty good. With these settings, it would be pretty hard to provoke major reconstruction errors or even aliasing on a deep memory DSO like the SDS824X HD. Yet there might still be situations where we can’t get a sufficient real time sample rate. To demonstrate this, we can use the Constant Sample Rate setting instead of Auto Memory.

As a first step, let’s reduce the sample rate to 250 MSa/s, which many would consider still adequate for a 12 MHz signal:


SDS824X HD_Square_12MHz_3ns_250MSa_Vect

Even though the fundamental frequency of the signal is just 12 MHz and the Nyquist frequency (125 MHz) is more than ten times higher, we still get to see massive reconstruction artefacts and aliasing already. So much for the sometimes mentioned “rule of thumb” which suggests that a bandwidth five times the repetition frequency of a square wave would be adequate…

Let’s take this one step further and set the sample rate to 100 MSa/s:


SDS824X HD_Square_12MHz_3ns_100MSa_Vect

With the previous settings, we still got something remotely similar to a square wave. We go one step further and reduce the sample rate to 50 MSa/s:


SDS824X HD_Square_12MHz_3ns_50MSa_Vect

Now we finally got a pure sine wave with lots of amplitude modulation and jitter – certainly not a very good representation of the original waveform anymore. We still want to take it to the extreme and reduce the sample rate even further to 20 MSa/s, thus violating Nyquist even for the fundamental frequency:


SDS824X HD_Square_12MHz_3ns_20MSa_Vect

This last screenshot needs not be commented, as it speaks for itself – except for the fact, that the SDS824X HD won’t let us use the original time base of 20 ns/div with such a low sample rate anymore. As a consequence, the DSO has automatically switched to 50 ns/div.

Anyway, this is not the end – after all we’ve got the Dots display mode up our sleeves:


SDS824X HD_Square_12MHz_3ns_20MSa_Dots

Yes, with only 1 point per division (10 points for the whole record!), there is no contiguous trace and the rendering is a bit dim. Yet nothing that could not be improved by a little Persistence time:


SDS824X HD_Square_12MHz_3ns_20MSa_Dots_P1

What we get now is a perfect visual representation of the original signal – within the bounds of the 244 MHz bandwidth, that is – despite the effective sample rate of only 20 MSa/s.

« Last Edit: February 26, 2024, 10:12:31 am by Performa01 »
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #83 on: February 26, 2024, 10:16:53 am »
Thank you, Performa01 -- that was an impressive demonstration case for dot mode!

But I am intrigued: How can triggering work so well in the under-sampled acquisition modes, to allow the scope to precisely overlay the multiple captures?
 
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Online gf

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #84 on: February 26, 2024, 10:34:06 am »
Thank you, Performa01 -- that was an impressive demonstration case for dot mode!

But I am intrigued: How can triggering work so well in the under-sampled acquisition modes, to allow the scope to precisely overlay the multiple captures?

The ADC and the trigger engine still run at the full sample rate. The down-sampling to the acquisition sample rate happens thereafter.
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #85 on: February 26, 2024, 10:38:06 am »
Ah, ok -- so dot mode can't work any magic if one really pushes the scope to the limits of its sampling rate. That makes sense, thank you!
 

Online gf

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #86 on: February 26, 2024, 10:46:15 am »
Ah, ok -- so dot mode can't work any magic if one really pushes the scope to the limits of its sampling rate. That makes sense, thank you!

The trigger engine also interpolates, i.e. it can determine the trigger point with sub-nanosecond resolution @1Gsa/s ADC sample rate.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2024, 11:18:22 am by gf »
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #87 on: February 26, 2024, 12:17:50 pm »
The trigger engine also interpolates, i.e. it can determine the trigger point with sub-nanosecond resolution @1Gsa/s ADC sample rate.

But that would be the same interpolation algorithm which is used for sin(x)/x interpolation of the traces in line mode, right? Hence would suffer from the same aliasing problems if the scope is pushed beyond its sampling rate limits?
 

Online gf

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #88 on: February 26, 2024, 01:24:28 pm »
The trigger engine also interpolates, i.e. it can determine the trigger point with sub-nanosecond resolution @1Gsa/s ADC sample rate.

But that would be the same interpolation algorithm which is used for sin(x)/x interpolation of the traces in line mode, right? Hence would suffer from the same aliasing problems if the scope is pushed beyond its sampling rate limits?

Good question what kind of interpolation it uses.

Sure, as long as the front-end provides sufficient alias rejection for the ADC sample rate (i.e. for frequencies >= fs/2), it is not surprising that a sinc trigger interpolation works well.

Some time ago I was indeed curios what happens if this is not granted, and did a simulation. For the attached plots I'm assuming a "maximally flat" 4th order Butterworth frequency response with -3dB cut-off at 250MHz. This gives sufficient alias rejection for 1Gsa/s, but clearly not for 500MSa/s. As expected, with sinc interpolation, the 1GSa/s traces line up cleanly in figure1, but the sinc-interpolated 500MSa/s traces in figure2 suffer from aliasing and and don't line up. The simulated dots plot with trigger interpolation in figure 3 is still nice at 500MSa/s, despite violation of the sampling theorem, but the shape is no longer perfectly correct. All three plots use sinc interpolation for the simulated trigger (i.e. for the horizontal alignment of the overlaid traces or dots). The trigger level is 0.9, trailing edge.

So interestingly, trigger interpolation + dots mode still seems works to some extent (not in general, of course) if the sampling theorem is violated.

[ Btw, ignore the horizontal line at y=0 in figure3. ]
« Last Edit: February 26, 2024, 01:38:02 pm by gf »
 
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Online Performa01Topic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #89 on: February 26, 2024, 04:00:08 pm »
Good question what kind of interpolation it uses.

A while ago, Siglent have changed that strategy and the trigger interpolation seems now to be the same as for the waveform display/processing.

I other words, even in Dots display mode where there should be no difference for the display waveform, the choice of linear (x) interpolation vs. Sin(x)/x reconstruction still matters for the trigger. Yet I don't think this will make a huge difference as soon as Nyquist is violated in the trigger path.
 
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Online Performa01Topic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #90 on: February 28, 2024, 08:22:14 am »
X-Y

As usual, X-Y mode is hardware accelerated with high waveform update rates and intensity or color grading.

An important property is the waveform update rate in X-Y acquisition mode and it shows that at faster time bases (≤2 µs/div) the trigger rate is even higher in X-Y mode than the corresponding 2-channel Y-t mode. The table below shows the trigger rates for various time base settings from 100 ns/div up to 1 ms/div and compares the trigger rates in regular dual channel Y-t mode to the X-Y mode:


SDS824X HD_XY_UpdateRate

The maximum speed at 100 ns/div was more than 63000 updates per second and X-Y mode limits the time base so that it cannot get any faster than that. Up to 1 µs/div, the update speed is always greater than 10000 per second and from there it scales as expected, i.e. the trigger speed is proportional to the record length.

The figures stated above are valid for the full sample rate of 1 GSa/s, which also means record lengths of e.g. 10 Mpts at 1 ms/div. In other words, these numbers represent the worst case and X-Y operation could be accelerated by limiting the record length (thus also reducing the sample rate).

I want to show some examples, which also demonstrate the intensity and color grading. First a familiar Lissajous figure, and then some I/Q waveform patterns at 1 Mbps, which can serve as a speed demonstration because of their complexity.


SDS824X HD_Sine_1MHz_5MHz_45deg_IG


SDS824X HD_QPSK_1Mbps_CG


SDS824X HD_8PSK_1Mbps


SDS824X HD_D8PSK_1Mbps_CG


SDS824X HD_16QAM_1Mbps_CG

« Last Edit: February 28, 2024, 08:25:16 am by Performa01 »
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #91 on: February 28, 2024, 08:29:53 am »
Thank you for demonstrating XY mode. The waveform update rates are quite impressive for this scope class, and the color grading is a nice touch!

I guess it was to be expected that the limited trace resolution (grouping 2 pixels together) now applies to the X axis as well, due to the limitations of the block RAM capacity in the FPGA.

But why did Siglent choose to render this differently in the X direction?  On the Y axis, pairs of pixels showing the same brightness are displayed. On the X axis, every other line is simply left black, resulting in rather pronounced scan lines and a dim display overall. Are there technical reasons for this, or was it a UI design choice? Or is it a user-changeable setting maybe?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2024, 08:55:26 am by ebastler »
 

Offline Anthocyanina

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #92 on: February 28, 2024, 08:57:45 am »
do these scopes have fine timebase adjustment? i've been wondering about this feature in modern scopes for a while. so far the only one i know for sure has this is the keysight 1000 series.

Thank you!
 

Offline mwb1100

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #93 on: February 28, 2024, 09:48:52 am »
do these scopes have fine timebase adjustment? i've been wondering about this feature in modern scopes for a while. so far the only one i know for sure has this is the keysight 1000 series.

The SDS800X-HD manual doesn't mention it (it does for the vertical adjustment), so it looks like not.  As far as other modern scopes that have it, the Rigol MSO5000 does.
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #94 on: February 28, 2024, 09:59:07 am »
do these scopes have fine timebase adjustment? i've been wondering about this feature in modern scopes for a while. so far the only one i know for sure has this is the keysight 1000 series.

The SDS800X-HD manual doesn't mention it (it does for the vertical adjustment), so it looks like not.  As far as other modern scopes that have it, the Rigol MSO5000 does.

Rigol's DHO series supports it too. Although a bit inconvenient on the small DHO800/900, since they have a single shared button for Zoom or Vernier; the user needs to configure what it does and can reach the other function only via touch menus. The larger DHO1000/4000 have two separate buttons.
 
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Online Performa01Topic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #95 on: February 28, 2024, 10:49:14 am »
But why did Siglent choose to render this differently in the X direction?  On the Y axis, pairs of pixels showing the same brightness are displayed. On the X axis, every other line is simply left black, resulting in rather pronounced scan lines and a dim display overall. Are there technical reasons for this, or was it a UI design choice? Or is it a user-changeable setting maybe?
I don’t know – in any case there are no user settings about this. Quite honestly, for me this is pure cosmetics, hence clearly one of the less important things. All the more so as the X-Y mode is rarely used nowadays. Eventually I might inquire about any possible improvements.

A high-resolution scope is not meant for inspecting traces with a magnifier glass, but getting suitable data for vertical zoom and precise measurements.

do these scopes have fine timebase adjustment? i've been wondering about this feature in modern scopes for a while. so far the only one i know for sure has this is the keysight 1000 series.
No. What would be the use case for this?

All contemporary Siglent DSOs have huge secondary buffers for measurements and math, and support gated measurements with separate gating cursors.

 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #96 on: February 28, 2024, 11:06:35 am »
[I don’t know – in any case there are no user settings about this. Quite honestly, for me this is pure cosmetics, hence clearly one of the less important things. All the more so as the X-Y mode is rarely used nowadays. Eventually I might inquire about any possible improvements.

A high-resolution scope is not meant for inspecting traces with a magnifier glass, but getting suitable data for vertical zoom and precise measurements.

I certainly agree that X-Y mode is a somewhat exotic use case, and not a forte of any digital scope. I'm keeping a CRT scope around for those rare occasions anyway... So certainly not a critical limitation.

I don't really agree on the "it's not meant for looking at traces" argument. It's an oscilloscope, after all.  If the user were not meant to look at the trace in detail, why bother with intensity or color grading? ;)

Maybe Siglent can improve the visual quality of the display with limited effort -- actually not only in X-Y mode, but also for the Y dimension in regular Y-T mode. If the doubled-up pixels were not simply rendered black or at the same intensity as the respective "real" pixel from block RAM, but could be shown as an intensity average of the two neighboring "real" pixels, that should produce much smoother traces.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #97 on: February 28, 2024, 11:38:51 am »
SDS800xHD and vertical pixels......

Can those claiming this scope always renders waveform with double vertical pixels  please explain attached images:

On this capture it is clearly visible that portions of the waveform are rendered with exactly ONE vertical pixels....

Download images to your PC and zoom in....

 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #98 on: February 28, 2024, 11:57:26 am »
SDS800xHD and vertical pixels......

Can those claiming this scope always renders waveform with double vertical pixels  please explain attached images:
On this capture it is clearly visible that portions of the waveform are rendered with exactly ONE vertical pixels....

That would be great news! This might convince me to get an SDS1000X HD with the larger screen after all.  :)

What exact scope type did you use, and what did you do differently? I have zoomed into many of Performa01's screenshots in this thread, and they all show the doubled-up pixels. And Performa01 has also explained why this limitation exists (see below). So what is different now?

Unfortunately, the budget instruments have to make do with the block RAM in the Zynq SOC, so there are no ressources for pixel mapping at that level. This affects the SDS800X HD, SDS1000X HD and even the good old SDS2000X Plus.
 

Offline baldurn

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD Review & Demonstration Thread
« Reply #99 on: February 28, 2024, 11:57:52 am »
SDS800xHD and vertical pixels......

Can those claiming this scope always renders waveform with double vertical pixels  please explain attached images:

On this capture it is clearly visible that portions of the waveform are rendered with exactly ONE vertical pixels....

Download images to your PC and zoom in....

Looks to me like there are certain lines that are 1 pixel and the rest are two? Like it is reducing from a resolution that is not a whole fraction of the screen resolution.
 


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