Seriously, why would anyone consider anything else than Rigol?

[0culus]

But Dave uses it as an analog scope replacement. For that purpose the low end Keysight scopes are fine (as 2N3055 already noted). But for decoding and advanced use not so much. The UI alone is just too tedious.

See the message from Dave. The UI is anything but tedious as that's a major selling point. Speculating about how Dave uses his oscilloscopes seems a bit inappropriate.

Have you ever used a Keysight scope to do decoding (for example)? I have and the process of setting it up is super tedious compared to GW Instek. This is not speculation but hands-on experience. The secret of the GW Instek is that is has a horizontal and vertical row of buttons next to the screen and a seperate select button instead of a combined rotary/push button. That makes a world of difference in ease of use.

I have. It works fine and is not tedious to set up. Speaking as someone who strongly prefers analog scopes anyway in hobby land, the rotary push knob thing that Keysight uses is actually a damn sight better than doubling the number of softkeys.

I was most recently using the aforementioned scope for sniffing around a CAN bus, and it does an excellent job. I told the scope what CAN frame ID I wanted to trigger on and it grabbed it no worries.

[nctnico]

But you didn't try a different scope to see if it is better or worse  I did and I know from experience the Keysight UI is not the most ideal one for doing more complicated setups. There is not much use in saying 'I didn't find it tedious' without having any reference frame.

[0culus]

So what? I was sharing my experience with some tools I have access to at work, and that I did not find it tedious to use. That's just like....my opinion, man.

[nctnico]

But it precisely underlines what I wrote a few posts earlier in reply #127 

[Mr. Scram]

But you didn't try a different scope to see if it is better or worse  I did and I know from experience the Keysight UI is not the most ideal one for doing more complicated setups. There is not much use in saying 'I didn't find it tedious' without having any reference frame.

Is that why Dave's judgement got waved away with "he uses it as an analogue oscilloscope"? I'm pretty sure he has almost anyone beat when it comes to experience with different models but I suspect it wasn't the desirable reply. I don't think cherry picked arguments are doing anyone a favour.

[0culus]

The religious arguments that erupt about DSOs on this forum are honestly hilarious. 

If we are talking about buying gear for work-for-money, the low end just doesn't cut it for a variety of reasons. If I'm buying an instrument for work, it not only needs to work well, it also needs good support in case it breaks. NIST traceable cal may be required depending on what you're doing. Keysight may not be quite as awesome as HP was, but their support is excellent and they carry a wide range of useful instruments as HP did. It's pretty much like the "No one got fired for buying IBM" adage.

At my work, Siglent/Rigol/GW Instek just wouldn't cut it from a risk management perspective. Nobody buys that stuff except for one off purchases to use at your desk or something. Serious lab equipment purchases are always a top brand, and we have JIT agreements with the vendors so if you have a sudden immediate need you can usually get it in on your bench within a couple business days. 

On the other hand, if I'm buying for myself...the lower end OEMs provide a great value proposition and serious bang per buck.

[nctnico]

But you didn't try a different scope to see if it is better or worse  I did and I know from experience the Keysight UI is not the most ideal one for doing more complicated setups. There is not much use in saying 'I didn't find it tedious' without having any reference frame.

Is that why Dave's judgement got waved away with "he uses it as an analogue oscilloscope"? I'm pretty sure he has almost anyone beat when it comes to experience with different models but I suspect it wasn't the desirable reply. I don't think cherry picked arguments are doing anyone a favour.

Dave may have touched a lot of scopes but to gain some real in-depth experience in what works and what doesn't you'd need to use a whole bunch of them in various scenarios. Dave just doesn't do the heavy duty of design work like some of us do -which is perfectly fine- but you should put his remarks in that perspective. IOW: you can't go around saying this oscilloscope is absolutely perfect for all use cases. Such an oscilloscope simply doesn't exist.

To my left there is a Lecroy Wavepro 7200A with a GW Instek GDS2204-E stacked on top of it to use for a project. Each oscilloscope is better for a certain purpose so I pulled out both.

[Mr. Scram]

Dave may have touched a lot of scopes but to gain some real in-depth experience in what works and what doesn't you'd need to use a whole bunch of them in various scenarios. Dave just doesn't do the heavy duty of design work like some of us do -which is perfectly fine- but you should put his remarks in that perspective. IOW: you can't go around saying this oscilloscope is absolutely perfect for all use cases. Such an oscilloscope simply doesn't exist.

Keep on waving, wave anything getting in the way of the foregone conclusion away. GW-Instek must be the logical choice or else we'll just wave some more! 

[tautech]

Only because Mr Jones has still to get his head around the power of deep memory DSO usage. 
Instead of 'crippling' it's a extremely powerful feature.

Give it a rest.  Other than a few fanboys of other brands and in your case a seller of competing equipment shiling his own brand I haven't seen many people complain about memory depth in the real world. Having more memory doesn't hurt but we know available memory is the trade off with the current generation ASIC. The real world implications tend to be massively overstated by a few usual suspects.

OK play the man instead of the ball ! 

The most capable DSO's have good memory depth, period.
It requires a different use style to get its full capabilities and some use of gray matter instead of just twiddling knobs and hoping to see squiggly lines.
If you don't understand the design strategies used in scopes today and why they are used maybe it's time you did some study so to know what you're taking about.

BTW, who mentioned any brands ? 

[nctnico]

@Tautech: dang it, why did you have to take the bait? 

[Mr. Scram]

OK play the man instead of the ball ! 

The most capable DSO's have good memory depth, period.
It requires a different use style to get its full capabilities and some use of gray matter instead of just twiddling knobs and hoping to see squiggly lines.
If you don't understand the design strategies used in scopes today and why they are used maybe it's time you did some study so to know what you're taking about.

BTW, who mentioned any brands ? 

Most other people would make an excellent point, but considering the endless barrage of Siglent shilling coming from your corner it's a bit laughable to now suddenly start worrying about how the game is played. Act like you want to be treated and people will have no issues returning the gesture. I'm not sure whether you're on a personal quest to ruin Siglent's reputation and make it look like a dishonest outfit but you're doing an admirable job.

[Mr. Scram]

@Tautech: dang it, why did you have to take the bait? 

They hated him for he told the truth.

[martinot]

If you want to decode 500K is limitation. So is only 50 segments. Only reason why MSOX3000T can handle any serious decoding is that it can have 1000 segments. One thing that works for Keysight is that decode works even at very low sample rate, even when signal on screen looks like crap..But that defeats purpose of looking at it with a scope.
DSOX1204  is perfect as an analog scope replacement. For more advanced digital scope use is disappointing..

Performance and specs of GW Instek GDS-2074E is absolutely superior in every aspect. Every. On Rigol and Siglent you might be reticent because platforms are new and not mature yet. And you don't want to wait a bit for them to sort it out.
That being said, Siglent has been more diligent fixing stuff lately than, say, R&S was and still is.

I think GW Instek looks to have some really good and interesting scopes (will look more at them), but how good are they at updating firmware and fixing bugs?

[martinot]

I've yet to grasp why everybody thinks they have to buy new!!!!

The reason is simple. New equipment has new features like a display which shows the status in a clear way, ethernet / USB connectivity, (in case of oscilloscopes) support for protocol decoding, etc.

For me personally it is also much easier for tax reasons for my company to buy a new scope (unless you get a really, really good price on second hand market, it is not worth the hassle).

[martinot]

[...] Rigol do seems to have good hardware, and also for a much lower prices than anyone else (perhaps connection to CCP party gives the debated subsidies for Rigol to sell scopes outside of China below manufacturing prices).  [...]

You are smearing on a thick layer of propaganda here.   American and European manufacturers are also subsidised, including scope manufacturers, in various ways.

So why pick on China - is it that you psychologically need an enemy to make yourself feel better about your own life?

I did not know that USA or EU subsidies scope manufactures. Which manufactures is that get those subsidies?

The reason I am asking about the Chinese ones, was because it was informed in another Rigol-thread (by a Chinese person) that the Chinese regime gave subsidies to Rigol for selling their scope outside the China market. Do you say that information is false?

I am very much interested to know the facts (especially with all the trade wars going on, this is hot stuff).

[martinot]

I was an early purchaser of a brand new Siglent SDS1202X-E.  When changing Y range AROUND 1V/div, the probe compensation went all wonky and you had to perform probe compensation - yes all that messing around with a screwdriver to get good square waves.  Turns out there were capacitors missing off the main PCB. I asked Siglent to fix for me but they wouldn't but instead sent me capacitors - then they told me that, if I broke the seals, I would invalidate my warranty - fuck that! 

I escalated and was, at first, told I was SOL, eventually after a LOT of emails, they purchased it back from me.  I have since unburdened myself of all Siglent gear.

Ok. Good that they (finally) took it back at least.

(Even if I think it would have been more normal for most other manufacturers to just replace it with a new working one, and can not understand why not.)

[SilverSolder]

[...] Rigol do seems to have good hardware, and also for a much lower prices than anyone else (perhaps connection to CCP party gives the debated subsidies for Rigol to sell scopes outside of China below manufacturing prices).  [...]

You are smearing on a thick layer of propaganda here.   American and European manufacturers are also subsidised, including scope manufacturers, in various ways.

So why pick on China - is it that you psychologically need an enemy to make yourself feel better about your own life?

I did not know that USA or EU subsidies scope manufactures. Which manufactures is that get those subsidies?

The reason I am asking about the Chinese ones, was because it was informed in another Rigol-thread (by a Chinese person) that the Chinese regime gave subsidies to Rigol for selling their scope outside the China market. Do you say that information is false?

I am very much interested to know the facts (especially with all the trade wars going on, this is hot stuff).

OK.

 - First you need to know that in general, it is completely normal for incentives to be granted to any industry, especially in an area where there is unemployment.  This is done with the idea of boosting the economy in that area and, hopefully, make it self sustaining in the longer run.  It is very common for American states to compete for corporations' attention by offering various attractive sweeteners.  Of course, any company that has received a subsidy in this way, can use that money in different ways - either to run low prices to shut others out of the market, or just add to the profitability of the company.  For example, https://mexicogov.org/incentives.php

Then, there are the "hidden subsidies" that are created by government programmes such as aerospace or the military.  These branches of government typically have a LOT of money at their disposal and they disperse it to industry via tactics like buying equipment  and/or parts at inflated prices from favoured suppliers, which effectively acts as a state subsidy without calling it a state subsidy.   Many of the A brand oscilloscope companies that we know and love benefit from these programmes.

[martinot]

Why would anyone consider anything other than a $10 voltmeter?

Ignorant fanboys that just want that Fluke name badge, of course! 

Sadly people on both sides of the fence seem to think that way.   My response when somebody asks; is to always buy a Fluke if you need a handheld meter.   Is that being a fanboy or jut a reflection of years of industrial experience and being treated well by Fluke.   Some companies earn their reputations.

I have bought som great multimeters from other brands, like my Brymen BM257S, Wavetek/meterman (several), and also the EEVblog 121W one (wanted to support Dave and channel, and have some of his other products as well). Have been very happy with those and not regret it at all, but at the same time I must admit that all my other five multi meters I own are from Fluke. Never been disappointed with them. Even if less features per buck compared with the competition, my Flukes have never let med down and are a joy to use. If I measure AC conductors, I almost exclusively use my Flukes.

[martinot]

Now another reason TO choose Rigol over A-brands: delivery time.

Keysight has postponed my order for 2 months, and despite a 3 month contract, their estimated delivery date is early September, making it 4 months of lead time.

Granted, this may not affect hobby level gears, but as you move to professional range, even lower tiers, things are built to order, you need to take this into consideration.

Many Rigol gears, even high end ones like 8000 scopes and 5000 spectrum analyzers, are in stock.

Just NOW, I changed my next order to remove some Keysight gears and replaced them with Rigol to guarantee delivery.

I don't expect to replace all Keysight/Tek with Rigol, as diversity is needed for cross checking and probe compatibility, but as least I need something deliverable in some near future so I have something to use.

Now in those times with CV-19 I personally have a lot more acceptance that many manufactures (especially those who manufactures in China/asia, or depend on key components from China) have difficulties with normal lead time deliveries.

[martinot]

I was an early purchaser of a brand new Siglent SDS1202X-E.  When changing Y range AROUND 1V/div, the probe compensation went all wonky and you had to perform probe compensation - yes all that messing around with a screwdriver to get good square waves.

There is essentially a divide between correct compensation produced without the capacitors.  Compensation holds well but there is a weird step around that setting.  (I haven't checked it myself, but there was a detailed post here covering the issue.)

Turns out there were capacitors missing off the main PCB.

They deliberately removed them.  Presumably a QA screw-up of the 'It seems fine without these, so lets save two cents' type.

I asked Siglent to fix for me but they wouldn't but instead sent me capacitors - then they told me that, if I broke the seals, I would invalidate my warranty - fuck that!

Tautech offered to do the necessary work and cover shipping.  Warranty wouldn't be affected.  Where did you buy yours?

I have bought multiple 3D printers from AliExpress.  Some were fine, some had varying levels of minor problems.  The most expensive one has caused me massive headaches just trying to get it to work properly (including bricking the display while trying to upgrade firmware to a hoped-for usable level).  It presently works almost as well as the worst of the two cheap ones I have... hooray.  Sometimes you get bit if you're trying to buy based on cost.  (Nobody resells these here, but my point is to buy local if you want support.)

I escalated and was, at first, told I was SOL, eventually after a LOT of emails, they purchased it back from me.  I have since unburdened myself of all Siglent gear.

The frustration level depends on your usage, I guess.  If it's a PITA for you then it's a major problem.

I haven't yet fixed mine.  Didn't even remember to ask for the capacitors until recently.

It's probably the same for people happy with the older Rigol 'scopes.  The super-slow UI / lack of response drives me nuts, but if you aren't using that UI much...   

I have not (yet) have had the possibility to test modern Rigol scopes, but will try to when possible. Are they slow just compared to Keysight scopes (which I have had a chance to test in the 1000-series, and is a good reference to me), or are they slow in general compared to all other brands?

I know it does not affect measurement or end resluts, but responsiveness is very important for me, as I personally really hate working with slow and unresponsive devices/machines (regardless of types).

[martinot]

Missed that one. What was up with the capacitors??

Something to do with the frontend, user got capacitors in the mail to solder in place. I'd be surprised (but don't know for sure) if Siglent wouldn't do it FOR you but then there's a lot of time (and money) lost in shipping etc.

And there's SDM3055 where users have been promised an update for quite some time and the old SDS2000 (IIRC) which was abandoned, leaving users in the dark and the EBAY debacle when someone got in trouble for trying to sell their old unit and most likely a whole lot of other "stuff". So, Rigol is far from perfect but it's not like it's all good and well on the Siglent side of things either.

Another pet peeve of mine in these sorts of discussions: Refering to devices (scopes, DMMs whatever) as "the Rigol", "the Keysight", "the Siglent" etc is really bad when it's not clear that it's this or that specific model you're talking about. For example, over and over again it's stated the "the Rigol" can't decode from acquisition memory" yet "my Rigol" (a DS4000) does that just fine which I've shown on this very forum and although it's not the fastest GUI around it sure doesn't take 6 seconds for something to happen. So if "your Rigol" takes 6 seconds to respond which model is that? It's not like they're all the same.

Thanks!

I think some things seems to be more common between scopes by a certain manufacture (documentation, general quality of software, general user interface, normal frequency of firmware releases, customer support, etc.), but many other things I fully agree needs to be discussed regarding the specific series, or exact models. Would be happy if more people mentioned which specific series or models they referenced to when they mention certain attributes.

[Mr. Scram]

I have not (yet) have had the possibility to test modern Rigol scopes, but will try to when possible. Are they slow just compared to Keysight scopes (which I have had a chance to test in the 1000-series, and is a good reference to me), or are they slow in general compared to all other brands?

I know it does not affect measurement or end resluts, but responsiveness is very important for me, as I personally really hate working with slow and unresponsive devices/machines (regardless of types).

Judging by the videos I've seen the MSO5000 is faster than the DS1054Z, but noticeably laggy on video. It'd drive me nuts, which is a shame as it's a competent oscilloscope otherwise. They were so close to owning this slice of the market but now the competition is onto them with their respective products. A tool should be a shortcut instead of being a barrier to scale.

[tautech]

I did not know that USA or EU subsidies scope manufactures. Which manufactures is that get those subsidies?

The reason I am asking about the Chinese ones, was because it was informed in another Rigol-thread (by a Chinese person) that the Chinese regime gave subsidies to Rigol for selling their scope outside the China market. Do you say that information is false?

I am very much interested to know the facts (especially with all the trade wars going on, this is hot stuff).

Finnish actually.
rf-loop goes to China most years and displays the Chinese flag while he is there.
Very experienced engineer and now retired (I believe) test equipment reseller of Finland.

You should research his many informative posts about all brands over many years.

[martinot]

The economic differences between countries are huge and even the Siglent/Rigols that get beaten over here all-day are complete Rolls Royces for many other countries.

I agree. It is a very good comment and observation.

But that said, you also have to remember the opposite; at that same time as Rigol/Siglent are "normal" and affordable for you in your country (and too expensive in even poorer countries), Keysight/R&S could just as well be normal and affordable in richer countries than yours (like northern Europe countries like Germany and Scandinavia, and USA/Canada, for example).

Just like different neighborhoods defines what car brands are normal. Where I live it is a little bit upper middle class, with a lot of Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Porsches and Teslas, but very few of cheaper car brands like Skoda, FIAT and KIA (like in lower income areas), but at the same time also very few really expensive cars like Ferrari and Lamborghini (have a couple in the area, but not many or common, like they have in really rich peoples areas).

Your view and purchasing power, and what you consider "normal", varies a lot depending on where your live, and what you see around you every normal day.

[martinot]

I did not know that USA or EU subsidies scope manufactures. Which manufactures is that get those subsidies?

The reason I am asking about the Chinese ones, was because it was informed in another Rigol-thread (by a Chinese person) that the Chinese regime gave subsidies to Rigol for selling their scope outside the China market. Do you say that information is false?

I am very much interested to know the facts (especially with all the trade wars going on, this is hot stuff).

Finnish actually.
rf-loop goes to China most years and displays the Chinese flag while he is there.
Very experienced engineer and now retired (I believe) test equipment reseller of Finland.

You should research his many informative posts about all brands over many years.

Yes, I think that was the person who informed that Rigol got subsidies from the Chinese government for specifically selling their scopes outside the Chinese market. As you represent Siglent, is the same true for them as well?