Seriously, why would anyone consider anything else than Rigol?

[joeqsmith]

The primary point I would give to the modern siglents is really fast SCPI processing, but if you don't use it, then its not really a factor for you,

e.g. throwing 8 thousand commands at the thing at line speed, and have it feed back the answers in a few seconds (way overkill, but I was testing to see what broke first)

Did you post your testing?  If so, please provide a link.

[robca]

The OP says

Simple I2C/SPI/RS232 decoding would be nice.

Just thought to mention that a ~$10 eBay 8 channels logic probe with sigrok can do protocol decoding for pretty much anything, and usually a logic probe is a better tool to analyze digital protocols.

For 20+ years as a hobbyist I happily used a 1980s era Hitachi V-1065 100MHz dual trace analog oscilloscope and a cheap logic analyzer, and I almost never found the tools to be limiting (mostly was my skill level). I see plenty of decent 60-100MHz analog oscilloscopes on Craigslist locally for slightly more than $100 or so.

I recently found a too-good-to-pass deal on a barely used DS2072A (upgraded to 300MHz now) and the main benefit for me has been the reclaimed desk space. Clearly it's a much better scope than the one it replaced and has plenty of new useful functions. But the cheap eBay logic probe still sees a lot of use, nonetheless

If the OP doesn't really know what s/he wants, maybe a cheap used scope would be a good starting point to learn more and, one day, know exactly what it's needed in a scope. Not to mention that every year that goes by, better and cheaper entry-level scopes are available

[Fungus]

Simple I2C/SPI/RS232 decoding would be nice.

Just thought to mention that a ~$10 eBay 8 channels logic probe with sigrok can do protocol decoding for pretty much anything, and usually a logic probe is a better tool to analyze digital protocols.

True, but it won't let you see if your pullup resistors are the right values.

[stafil]

Hmm, you are being too spartan with your words, I'm not getting what advantage it gives you over a bigger screen.

To me, something like the Waverunner is the tits. 15in display, controls on the side. Now if only someone made that in 4 channels, 100mhz for $1-2k...

Oh, no, I didn't mean I would trade it over the big screen. I agree with you and the rest of the comments on all other points.

[David Hess]

Why would I consider other brands than Rigol, if Rigol is good, time proven, and cheap?
Why woult it be worth to pay more to get a Rohde&Schwarz, GW Instek or something like that?

You might want an alternative, and pay more for it, if the Rigol could not perform a specific function or make a specific measurement that you want, like for example measuring RMS noise, or decoding from the acquisition record instead of the display record.

In my case, Rigol's DSOs do not do anything I want better than my existing DSOs while an oscilloscope from Rhode & Schwarz would.

[tkamiya]

I have many scopes.  95% of what I do is easier, faster, and one push button operation using Siglent.  The remaining 5%, I have to rely on other scopes and more/less purpose made equipment.  Today's "cheap" scopes are amazingly capable.  If Rigol suits you fine, then go for it.  When you find its limitations, you will know more than enough to determine what you actually need.

Tek scopes of last decade and earlier used very high quality parts.  I'd imagine parts cost alone will exceed the whole purchase price of Siglent/Rigol.  But such is not as affordable.  So have to take that into consideration as well.

Something kind of interesting I tried not too long ago.  I was looking at a very fast rising square wave.  I had something like 10 probes - all compensated to that scope.  Some are Tek, some are generic.  Tek probes were all pretty close.  Generic ones read wildly differently!  This, you can see for yourself.

I really don't have a point to make.  Get what you can afford.  Get what works for your project, I guess.

[robca]

Simple I2C/SPI/RS232 decoding would be nice.

Just thought to mention that a ~$10 eBay 8 channels logic probe with sigrok can do protocol decoding for pretty much anything, and usually a logic probe is a better tool to analyze digital protocols.

True, but it won't let you see if your pullup resistors are the right values.

Indeed. But you don't need an I2C decoder on the scope to do that either. As a matter of fact, my old analog scope was good enough for that purpose (with some challenges with finding a proper trigger point in some cases. That could be easily solved by sending regular data on the I2C bus). I was pointing out that the decoding part can be done (usually better) by a logic probe. Also, with only 2 channels you can't do SPI, let alone parallel buses, so there's always a point where having a logic probe (esp one as cheap as you can get now) is a must have for anyone playing with digital logic

And cheap logic probes don't work for 1.8V logic, unless you also use level shifters. So a cheap logic probe is by no means perfect. But for most people using 5V and 3.3V, really a must have

[nctnico]

Simple I2C/SPI/RS232 decoding would be nice.

Just thought to mention that a ~$10 eBay 8 channels logic probe with sigrok can do protocol decoding for pretty much anything, and usually a logic probe is a better tool to analyze digital protocols.

True, but it won't let you see if your pullup resistors are the right values.

Indeed. But you don't need an I2C decoder on the scope to do that either. As a matter of fact, my old analog scope was good enough for that purpose (with some challenges with finding a proper trigger point in some cases. That could be easily solved by sending regular data on the I2C bus).

No. Often the problem is more subtile and in the analog domain. Having decoding on an oscilloscope is worth the money for development purposes. If there is no I2C problem then you can do the debugging of an embedded application at a much higher level. IOW: when doing development there is very little use for a logic analyser to look at busses. A logic analyser is only useful for doing reverse engineering; in that case the I2C bus is known to be good and you are only interested in the data.

[martinot]

... Why would I consider other brands than Rigol, if Rigol is good, time proven, and cheap?
Why woult it be worth to pay more to get a Rohde&Schwarz, GW Instek or something like that?

I had a Rigol. Press a button, wait six seconds for something to happen. That way my Rigol got in the way of what I wanted to do so I sold it and got something better (yes, more expensive as well).

That's why.

Agree. Also looking at scopes to buy, and Rigol do seems to have good hardware, and also for a much lower prices than anyone else (perhaps connection to CCP party gives the debated subsidies for Rigol to sell scopes outside of China below manufacturing prices). No complaints at the hardware side on Rigol.

It is the software side that lack the polish and optimizations that I would have liked to see. For some reasons software engineering seems to be harder to match for some brands (especially Asian, but not always). Seems to be much easier for them to get up to a good hardware standard than software standard. No idea why (seems strange).

Also; the design; ugly as hell! 

They really need to hire an industrial designer to make them a little bit more professional looking. Today it is a total disaster.

[martinot]

For sure, I need stable and bug free firmware.

Well, there is your number 1 reason not to choose for Rigol. 

Yep. Siglent hasn't had a single firmware update since release. That thing about mailing little packets of capacitors to people so they could solder them to the motherboard to fix things? We must have dreamed it...

Missed that one. What was up with the capacitors??

Where we as customers supposed to fix some new scopes, or was it a fix for older series?

I think, just like with Rigol, that Siglent seems to make great hardware today. No complaints from me, and far from the Atten and Din Young days (with more dubious quality control and poorer design choices). It its generally only on the software side they sometimes messes up.

[H.O]

Missed that one. What was up with the capacitors??

Something to do with the frontend, user got capacitors in the mail to solder in place. I'd be surprised (but don't know for sure) if Siglent wouldn't do it FOR you but then there's a lot of time (and money) lost in shipping etc.

And there's SDM3055 where users have been promised an update for quite some time and the old SDS2000 (IIRC) which was abandoned, leaving users in the dark and the EBAY debacle when someone got in trouble for trying to sell their old unit and most likely a whole lot of other "stuff". So, Rigol is far from perfect but it's not like it's all good and well on the Siglent side of things either.

Another pet peeve of mine in these sorts of discussions: Refering to devices (scopes, DMMs whatever) as "the Rigol", "the Keysight", "the Siglent" etc is really bad when it's not clear that it's this or that specific model you're talking about. For example, over and over again it's stated the "the Rigol" can't decode from acquisition memory" yet "my Rigol" (a DS4000) does that just fine which I've shown on this very forum and although it's not the fastest GUI around it sure doesn't take 6 seconds for something to happen. So if "your Rigol" takes 6 seconds to respond which model is that? It's not like they're all the same.

[SilverSolder]

[...] Rigol do seems to have good hardware, and also for a much lower prices than anyone else (perhaps connection to CCP party gives the debated subsidies for Rigol to sell scopes outside of China below manufacturing prices).  [...]

You are smearing on a thick layer of propaganda here.   American and European manufacturers are also subsidised, including scope manufacturers, in various ways.

So why pick on China - is it that you psychologically need an enemy to make yourself feel better about your own life?

[Gandalf_Sr]

I was an early purchaser of a brand new Siglent SDS1202X-E.  When changing Y range AROUND 1V/div, the probe compensation went all wonky and you had to perform probe compensation - yes all that messing around with a screwdriver to get good square waves.  Turns out there were capacitors missing off the main PCB. I asked Siglent to fix for me but they wouldn't but instead sent me capacitors - then they told me that, if I broke the seals, I would invalidate my warranty - fuck that! 

I escalated and was, at first, told I was SOL, eventually after a LOT of emails, they purchased it back from me.  I have since unburdened myself of all Siglent gear.

[tv84]

Gandalf_Sr, I had never heard that episode.       What a nightmare of customer care!?!?!

[StillTrying]

I had never heard that episode.

It's still available on catch-up!
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/msg1324788/#msg1324788

[Bassman59]

I was an early purchaser of a brand new Siglent SDS1202X-E.  When changing Y range AROUND 1V/div, the probe compensation went all wonky and you had to perform probe compensation - yes all that messing around with a screwdriver to get good square waves.  Turns out there were capacitors missing off the main PCB. I asked Siglent to fix for me but they wouldn't but instead sent me capacitors - then they told me that, if I broke the seals, I would invalidate my warranty - fuck that! 

I escalated and was, at first, told I was SOL, eventually after a LOT of emails, they purchased it back from me.  I have since unburdened myself of all Siglent gear.

That's unbelievable -- but I believe you. And your solution seems to be wise, as expected from a Wizard.

[NoisyBoy]

Wow, that's crazy of what they expect you to do.  They should not expect owners to have the equipment or skills to dismantle the equipment and solder SMD, plus the whole warranty seal ordeal.  Now I understand why you prefer Rigol, I would have returned it and bought something else as well.

[Mr. Scram]

The only viable alternative would be Siglent.

But not the A-brand manufacturers.

Keysight, Tektronix, LeCroy, R&S are all overpriced for the hobbyist.

So where do the A-brands come in then?

If your boss or your school pays.
If you have money to spare.
If you don't do your homework.
If you just want to show off with your A-brand, and you really don't know what you are doing with an oscilloscope.
If you are dumb.

It's like those photographers who have an expensive Nikon or Canon camera, and they don´t even know the basics of photography.

If you can do a good deal on a second hand A-brand oscilloscope, then it's a different story of course!

It's a bit silly to pretend the choice for A-brands is only driven by ego or incompetence. There are plenty of practical reasons to go with A-brand tools. Having support and calibration services is important if you do any kind of serious work and the trust you can have in them too. Although top brands do make crap products and budget brands make good products the quality and liveability of top tier equipment is often less hit and miss. That can matter when the tool is a means to an end and you need to get on with a job.

[wizard69]

I must protest this as what is right is really up to the user.   Further a lot about what is right about a scope is how the user interacts with it.

An analogy:

Most of use might think that it is silly to spend $150 on a ratchet to work on our cars.   Others professional or not may disagree, a lot of the time it comes down to subtle things about how the tool works.   So too with electronic instruments it often comes down to personal preference!!!

Now all of that being said I still don't understand why a hobbyist would buy a brand new scope anyways.   Especially somebody new to the hobby and still not sure of their direction.

The only viable alternative would be Siglent.

But not the A-brand manufacturers.

Keysight, Tektronix, LeCroy, R&S are all overpriced for the hobbyist.

That is nonsense.   It is up to the hobbyist to determine how much is too much and how well a specific device will fit his interest.   I run around in the cheapest pickup that meets my needs while others spend hug bucks on 4x4's and never get them dirty. Is the guy that pays an extra $30,000 wrong?   The difference in price of an A line scope vs a Chinese scopes isn't that great, compared to what many piss away on high end vehicles. 

Similarly people around here spend lots of money on backyard pools that barely get used 3 weeks out of the year.   A hobbyist might use a scope twice a week all year long, so which is a better spend on money?   

So where do the A-brands come in then?

If your boss or your school pays.
If you have money to spare.

It is really up to the buyer to determine priorities for his money.   But when it comes right down to it the price of an A line scope is peanuts over the lifetime that the owner may have it.   Especially when compared to other spend that a person might have.

If you don't do your homework.
If you just want to show off with your A-brand, and you really don't know what you are doing with an oscilloscope.

Actually it is often the opposite, it is the people that really know what they are doing that carefully shop for their tools.

If you are dumb.

It's like those photographers who have an expensive Nikon or Canon camera, and they don´t even know the basics of photography.

Actually both Cannon an Nikon covered a wide array of users until the advent of phones with camera.   This isn't just a thing with cameras though.  Here is a little tibit about people with things they can't handle:
A few years ago out, on highway 104, I came to a stop at an intersection in my little pickup.    Along side came a little Porsche.   I figure great I can have a little fun while it lasts.   So the light changes green and I give that little engine a punch knowing full well that the Porsche could blow me off no problem.   What happened?   Well the guy driving the Porsche missed a gear not once but twice.   I had to let up on the gas, and frankly was disappointed with that guys driving.
So does his lack of ability  to drive the Porsche means he shouldn't own one?   Maybe the guy was learning or had other issues, I really don't know.   

In the context of a scope, something you might own for 20 years, does it really hurt to start out learning the device from the ground floor?    It might take some time learning to "shift" from menu to menu but even if that takes 2 years you still got 18 years of ownership ahead of you.

If you can do a good deal on a second hand A-brand oscilloscope, then it's a different story of course!

I've yet to grasp why everybody thinks they have to buy new!!!!   That applies to any scope from any manufacture and frankly a lot of other instruments.   If somebody is focuses on new I'm still of the opinion that a good multimeter is a far better use of somebodies "new" tool budget.   This especially for somebody new to the hobby that doesn't have well defined interests.

Part of my reasoning here is that a good multimeter has uses beyond the hobby bench for somebody with the technical ability to use.   The fact is life gets into the way of hobby's and sometimes you just don't have the time.   However things break around the house or even the car, a multimeter helps keeps you running.   It is a useful household tool just like hammers, screwdrivers and the like.

[wizard69]

Why would anyone consider anything other than a $10 voltmeter?

Ignorant fanboys that just want that Fluke name badge, of course! 

Sadly people on both sides of the fence seem to think that way.   My response when somebody asks; is to always buy a Fluke if you need a handheld meter.   Is that being a fanboy or jut a reflection of years of industrial experience and being treated well by Fluke.   Some companies earn their reputations.

[2N3055]

It's a bit silly to pretend the choice for A-brands is only driven by ego or incompetence. There are plenty of practical reasons to go with A-brand tools. Having support and calibration services is important if you do any kind of serious work and the trust you can have in them too. Although top brands do make crap products and budget brands make good products the quality and liveability of top tier equipment is often less hit and miss. That can matter when the tool is a means to an end and you need to get on with a job.

This is well said. Just to add, some hobbyists will have advanced knowledge , and some will have no clue and all in between. Those with limited knowledge will have little use for advanced features.
 

Sadly people on both sides of the fence seem to think that way.   My response when somebody asks; is to always buy a Fluke if you need a handheld meter.   Is that being a fanboy or jut a reflection of years of industrial experience and being treated well by Fluke.   Some companies earn their reputations.

No you're not wrong, Fluke and Keysight are great, but you are privileged citizen of rich country who can't even grasp fact that price of Fluke 87 is the price of monthly salary of menial worker in my country. And my country is far from being poorest there is. It's just not rich.

Also just some responses to you in general.

An analogy:

Most of use might think that it is silly to spend $150 on a ratchet to work on our cars.   Others professional or not may disagree, a lot of the time it comes down to subtle things about how the tool works.   So too with electronic instruments it often comes down to personal preference!!!

Quality of noname tools became so high lately that it makes no sense anymore for hobbyist to just buy most expensive tools. Duty cycle of occasional use makes cheap tools last long time anyways, and if anything is damaged it's cheap to replace.
If I use tool every day, I will buy pro quality tool. Fora tool that gets used only occasionally, i just buy something that does the job. It will last long time because it's not being used much.

Now all of that being said I still don't understand why a hobbyist would buy a brand new scope anyways.   Especially somebody new to the hobby and still not sure of their direction.

This was done to death before. Only f***ing country that has used instrument market that makes any sense is USA. In rest of the world only choice is new inexpensive. Or expensive.

That is nonsense.   It is up to the hobbyist to determine how much is too much and how well a specific device will fit his interest.   I run around in the cheapest pickup that meets my needs while others spend hug bucks on 4x4's and never get them dirty. Is the guy that pays an extra $30,000 wrong?   The difference in price of an A line scope vs a Chinese scopes isn't that great, compared to what many piss away on high end vehicles. 

Similarly people around here spend lots of money on backyard pools that barely get used 3 weeks out of the year.   A hobbyist might use a scope twice a week all year long, so which is a better spend on money? 

You're confusing concept of freedom and concept of smart rational choice. You have freedom to act stupidly. But that fact doesn't make it smart. Actually, it makes it worse. You had choice, and you deliberately made choice to be stupid. It's double stupid. Freedom of choice is not legitimization of any choice to be considered equally good. Only equally possible.

And yes, people that  buy 30000$ 4X4 and never get them dirty ARE stupid. And assholes that damage environment, make road traffic unsafe to others... Not to mention that they could have bought more appropriate vehicle and put 10000$ in their kids college fund. Or fed some of so many hungry children even USA is full of.. And they would still commute the same.

And just to give you "unamerican" point of view, many people in Europe are looking at those 4 times too big houses with those never used pools (that are useless, because most of them are not big enough for you to swim in them) and think these people are, well, retarded, for the lack of the better word.

I'm not trying to be inflammatory, just blunt, as you are in your simplistic views, and to show you how non USA people think. Many of those things you attacked in in Pascals biased opinions you opposed with your bias... And I don't even agree with Pascal... I made comments to him before...

Hope you don't get it the wrong way, just being honest.

All the best,

[boggis the cat]

I was an early purchaser of a brand new Siglent SDS1202X-E.  When changing Y range AROUND 1V/div, the probe compensation went all wonky and you had to perform probe compensation - yes all that messing around with a screwdriver to get good square waves.

There is essentially a divide between correct compensation produced without the capacitors.  Compensation holds well but there is a weird step around that setting.  (I haven't checked it myself, but there was a detailed post here covering the issue.)

Turns out there were capacitors missing off the main PCB.

They deliberately removed them.  Presumably a QA screw-up of the 'It seems fine without these, so lets save two cents' type.

I asked Siglent to fix for me but they wouldn't but instead sent me capacitors - then they told me that, if I broke the seals, I would invalidate my warranty - fuck that!

Tautech offered to do the necessary work and cover shipping.  Warranty wouldn't be affected.  Where did you buy yours?

I have bought multiple 3D printers from AliExpress.  Some were fine, some had varying levels of minor problems.  The most expensive one has caused me massive headaches just trying to get it to work properly (including bricking the display while trying to upgrade firmware to a hoped-for usable level).  It presently works almost as well as the worst of the two cheap ones I have... hooray.  Sometimes you get bit if you're trying to buy based on cost.  (Nobody resells these here, but my point is to buy local if you want support.)

I escalated and was, at first, told I was SOL, eventually after a LOT of emails, they purchased it back from me.  I have since unburdened myself of all Siglent gear.

The frustration level depends on your usage, I guess.  If it's a PITA for you then it's a major problem.

I haven't yet fixed mine.  Didn't even remember to ask for the capacitors until recently.

It's probably the same for people happy with the older Rigol 'scopes.  The super-slow UI / lack of response drives me nuts, but if you aren't using that UI much...   

[tautech]

I haven't yet fixed mine.  Didn't even remember to ask for the capacitors until recently.

Oh good, so you got the caps ?
Getting low on them now. 

And you should get that PSU soon I hope....maybe even tomorrow. Check the tracking first thing tomorrow. 

[tv84]

No you're not wrong, Fluke and Keysight are great, but you are privileged citizen of rich country who can't even grasp fact that price of Fluke 87 is the price of monthly salary of menial worker in my country. And my country is far from being poorest there is. It's just not rich.

...

Quality of noname tools became so high lately that it makes no sense anymore for hobbyist to just buy most expensive tools. Duty cycle of occasional use makes cheap tools last long time anyways, and if anything is damaged it's cheap to replace.
If I use tool every day, I will buy pro quality tool. Fora tool that gets used only occasionally, i just buy something that does the job. It will last long time because it's not being used much.

...

This was done to death before. Only f***ing country that has used instrument market that makes any sense is USA. In rest of the world only choice is new inexpensive. Or expensive.

Although I agree with many of the ideas laid out by wizard69, what 2N3055 says above is an ESSENTIAL FACTOR that, most of the times, I see US guys here not realizing.

The economic differences between countries are huge and even the Siglent/Rigols that get beaten over here all-day are complete Rolls Royces for many other countries.

BUT, as important, the used market outside US is pratically non-existent and, IMHO, some US members are so accostumed to it that they have their mindset (subconscioully) biased. I'm not bashing that, I wish I could do the same, but it's totally impossible to me.

I don't hang out in TEA (although maybe I should...  ) but you can have a testimony of what I'm saying by looking at the usual citizenships of those that frequently fly there. If I had open access to a true used market, I definitely should go in TEA or, better, put on coma.

[Fred Basset]

The best reason I ever heard for buying any electronic equipment new, is the lack of any other elecronic equipment of known accuracy to be able to test/repair second-hand equipment if it turns out to need it.  I took that to mean something has to be your datum.