Should I buy a Lecroy Wave Ace?

[Wuerstchenhund]

The case is made very poorly

That's where I can agree on, the mechanical build quality is definitely much lower than of the previous WaveRunners (WRLT, WR2LT, WR6k(A)) which were built like tanks. The design of the internal aluminium chassis is pretty poor, and in many areas it looks like it has been hand-made by some apprentice. The plastics outer shell isn't very robust, and many WR(M)Xis suffered from broken off handles.

Having said that, it's certainly good enough for a bench scope. But I certainly wouldn't carry one around (I'd rather take my WavePro 7300A with me than my WR64Xi).

and can believe there could be some stress in it.   Think of the cheapest China made PC case and you have the Waveblunder.   I actually spent some time trying to take out some of the bends in the case.  Maybe it is designed so cheap so it will flex and not stress the parts.

Case flex isn't an issue with these scopes, it's mechanical stress caused by the PCBs getting pretty hot and expanding (which is prevented by the bolt that bind the ACQ board to the Front End). Actually a small problem, but obviously neglected. It seems that the Malaysian manufacturer who made the scope for LeCroy didn't do a very good job.

I put about 6 hours on it after it was assembled and it ran fine.  I wouldn't really call it fixed because I didn't address any of the root problems.

It may well be that there's actually not much wrong with it and that thermal stress was enough to disconnect the FE from the ACQ board temporarily, and if so a set of Nylon washers and reduced fixing torque on the bolts (maybe with a bit of Loctite to prevent them from falling off) might rectifiy the problem for good.   

Maybe they are and this one is a lemon.   If LeCroy replaced the connector after it was purchased and the same channel failed again, that's two failures in 7 years for  the same problem.   Not a sign of any sort of quality.

No, it's not. But I can understand that any free repairs have to have a limitation regarding how long they are available. And I say this as a WR64Xi owner with a scope that came from the 2005 batch and still suffers from two failed connectors (Ch1 and 4). But if the problem is rectified properly once it's unlikely to come back, and despite the somewhat lower build quality it's still one of the better scopes in that class.

And it's not that other manufacturers never had similar problems, just that the free fixes usually stopped the moment the warranty ran out, and in some cases the product support was discontinued not too long after so there wasn't even a paid repair by the manufacturer.

Still wonder why I say its a POS?

I actually never did, but probably for different reasons than you imagine.

[joeqsmith]

But I can understand that any free repairs have to have a limitation regarding how long they are available. And I say this as a WR64Xi owner with a scope that came from the 2005 batch and still suffers from two failed connectors (Ch1 and 4).

... and I wouldn't exactly consider a 600MHz 4Ch 10GSa/s 1.25M wfms/s WaveRunner 64Xi a low end scope.

I suspect this DSO was repaired once for the the same channel and now you are saying that you have the same Wavecrapper DSO with two dead channels.       Yea, it's a low end DSO.         

And it's understandable that after almost 9 years they won't fix the problem for free anymore (as they did when the scopes were younger).

But I can understand that any free repairs have to have a limitation regarding how long they are available.

Did you try to get them to repair yours for free or something and they would not?   They are a business.  Of course, quoting $5K (or even $2K) to repair what you are calling a known design flaw does seem to be a poor business model.   To me it says they are unwilling to stand behind their products and could care less about their customer base (which was already small). 

But I certainly wouldn't carry one around (I'd rather take my WavePro 7300A with me than my WR64Xi).

It just keeps getting better.  It's so bad you would rather try and lug around a huge WP7300A than take what is designed as a portable unit? 

WAVE RUNNER ® Xi SERIES
Performance Reimagined

Yes, they got that part right!  But then the first line is:

WaveRunner Xi Series gives you everything with no compromises —

Boy did they ever miss the mark there!!   

[Wuerstchenhund]

Did you try to get them to repair yours for free or something and they would not?

No, I didn't (the scope is sitting in the corner collecting dust at the moment), but I probably should ask them to. Thinking about it (and after seeing two other XIs with the same problem yesterday), I guess you're right in that they should really fix the problem for free, at least as long as the scope is within the prime support period (which is 7yrs after end of production). After that charging for it is fair game I guess.

They are a business.  Of course, quoting $5K (or even $2K) to repair what you are calling a known design flaw does seem to be a poor business model.   To me it says they are unwilling to stand behind their products and could care less about their customer base (which was already small).

Then ask them if they fix it for free, and if not put up a stink, i.e. complain on Twitter (which seems to be quite effective for such stuff). Often enough some pressure is needed to get some resolution.

But I certainly wouldn't carry one around (I'd rather take my WavePro 7300A with me than my WR64Xi).

It just keeps getting better.  It's so bad you would rather try and lug around a huge WP7300A than take what is designed as a portable unit? 

Yes, because the WP7300A has become my every-day scope, and it's actually not that much more inconvenient to carry than the WRXi. And since my WRXi has none of the software options while my WP7kA has all of them, I'd rather take the WavePro.

But at the end of the day both scopes are made as bench scopes, not luggables, and honestly, if I needed a portable scope I'd get something like a WaveSurfer 3000, or an Agilent DSOX3kT or something in that weight class.

[joeqsmith]

The places I have worked for will normally scrap equipment if the repair cost exceeds the value.   If the company has no interest in supporting their customers, we just stop buying their products.     

On the plus side, I did attempt to see if the Waveblunder would show spurs over the BW and it rolls off as expected.      Was not expecting otherwise.  Must be a problem with the newer products.

[Wuerstchenhund]

The places I have worked for will normally scrap equipment if the repair cost exceeds the value.   If the company has no interest in supporting their customers, we just stop buying their products.

Understandable (although businesses usually use the book value of their equipment, not the market value), but since you have the scope now you might get somewhere in having it fixed for free. After all these scopes still sell for several grands.

Another alternative (if you want to fix it yourself) might be to replace the connectors with a more permanent replacement (i.e. flat ribbon cable) which would get rid of the thermal problem for good.

[joeqsmith]

The places I have worked for will normally scrap equipment if the repair cost exceeds the value.   If the company has no interest in supporting their customers, we just stop buying their products.

Understandable (although businesses usually use the book value of their equipment, not the market value), but since you have the scope now you might get somewhere in having it fixed for free. After all these scopes still sell for several grands.

I am not 100% sure but would guess that capital equipment like DSOs would be fully depreciated after seven years.   $5K to fix a DSO worth nothing on the books makes for poor business.       

[digsys]

I am not 100% sure but would guess that capital equipment like DSOs would be fully depreciated after seven years.   $5K to fix a DSO worth nothing on the books makes for poor business. 

I'd be very surprised that tax rules would be SO different between our countries, but here in OZ (having run / been a director for 35+yrs) it works like this -
I chose how many years to depreciate "aid to manufacture / R+D" equipment, usually 3-5+ yrs (I chose 3 due to constant changing nature of the game).
After that - IF I sell the equipment, I pay tax on any balance - so I'd normally sell it off for $1. IF I keep it and service it, I write off ALL costs in that year !
I do NOT need to depreciate service costs. So would I pay $7K, or $35K+ and start again ?... NOPE. Every year that I keep the old equipment running,
it's "free". And I can use the other $28K saving to buy other shlt .. err equipment.

[joeqsmith]

In some states I believe you pay property taxes on equipment.   

I see your point but at some point the costs to maintain the old system will exceed their value.  The costs may not just be repair costs.  I can be down time, making bad choices if the system is providing bad data, etc. 

Another alternative (if you want to fix it yourself) might be to replace the connectors with a more permanent replacement (i.e. flat ribbon cable) which would get rid of the thermal problem for good.

That would be a nightmare!  If you decide to go this route with yours, post some pictures of the work and let me know how much time you spent on it, and any effects it had on your measurements.   

[guenthert]

unit can be seen here: http://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/oscilloscopemodel.aspx?modelid=6886
So would you buy this for $400?

Nope.
Not unless you absolutely needed 200MHz bandwidth at a rock bottom price.
The Rigol DS1054Z at sub $400 is a much better buy.
A massive amount of more memory, one of the best intensity graded displays on the market, faster updating(?), and a lot more measurement capability and serial decoding.

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I did just that, i.e. bought a Wave Ace 2032 for $400.  Since they are by now well aged (although my units was hardly used -- power up count was about 50) good deals (potentially better than mine) should be around.  Since I do already own a DS1054Z, I think I can perhaps contribute here in case someone else needs to make up their mind about such a purchase.

Fortunately, I did look up this thread before buying one, so I kind of knew what I was getting into.  And I understand some dismissive comments about this unit -- if I had paid a lot of money expecting a "LeCroy", then I'd be disappointed.  But once you hold it in your hand, there's no mistaken it for anything other than an entry level oscilloscope for hobbyist, very well in the same league as a DS1054Z.  In fact, it looks and feels (tactile as well as operating with alignment of menus and buttons) very much the same.  It is perhaps slightly easier to operate, which might be due to it offering less functionality or because I used the Rigol first (and briefly analogue ones *long* time before that).

Dave is quite right above, the Rigol offers more functionality and much more memory (the Siglent/LeCroy one is showing its age there) and twice as many inputs (not counting the trigger-in on the 2032) and due to that will be the better deal for most people.  It's also prettier (higher resolution screen) and at first sight seems to be less 'noisy' (does the 1054Z default to the "hi-res" mode?  I forgot.  The Wave Ace does offer an averaging mode which considerably reduces noise, albeit does default to sampling mode).  Both units thankfully remember the most recent settings after boot-up.

So why buy it then?  Well, my 1054Z happens to be in a storage facility on the other side of the world.  The Wave Ace complements my Digilent Analog Discovery nicely (better than the Rigol) for higher frequency signals.  It's also more honest about what it measures (allows one to en/disable sinc at all times, not to speak of the buggy implementation of sinc in the Rigol), albeit there's still a bug in the firmware where the Wave Ace falls back to vector display, when the time base is set to the lowest setting, regardless of the vector/points selection.  I plan to use it chiefly to verify that no high frequency noise is present (and 200 or so MHz is the current limit of my wallet ;-}  -- yeah, someday I'll get me a proper signal analyzer ...

The Wave Ace conveniently allows to set the input resistance to 50Ohm, but sadly offers no way of powering active probes.  Fwiw, it offers equivalent time sampling, making the best of the 300MHz input bandwidth (or 1.2ns rise time), at least for strictly periodic signals.

It came with a (no two) sets of fairly nice passive probes with some accessoires (including an adaptor to BNC).  They're rated for 250MHz bandwidth and include a manual with impedance over frequency diagram.  Nice touch.

It's fan is a bit quieter than I remember the Rigol's one, but sadly there is a faint high pitch whine (sounds more like coil whine than fan noise to me).  Not too annoying, but noticeable.  That might be only my (well aged) unit though.

So there's arguably not much going for the Wave Ace, but where do you get an oscilloscope with 200+ MHz bandwidth for $400?  There are plenty of Tektronix 485 around, but they're heavy, much older (and not that easy to repair) and don't offer all those niceties of digital storage oscilloscopes (single shot -- 'nuf said).  So far, I'm quite content with my purchase.