Products > Test Equipment

Should I buy a Rigol MSO5000?

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nctnico:

--- Quote from: ebastler on April 05, 2019, 06:19:34 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on April 05, 2019, 05:59:04 pm ---You are not getting the point TK is making. If you leave features out of an ASIC then doing a redesign will take a lot of time and money. The way the MSO5000 sits now makes it look like Rigol has left several important features (like decoding and high-res) out of the ASIC. Keysight has a different but equally severe limitation with their ASICs: they have a lot of functionality inside the ASIC except memory. That is very hard to fix/extend without a re-design. In case of an FPGA adding more memory or resources is easy: put a bigger FPGA on the board and/or use a larger memory chip.

--- End quote ---

Thank you, I understood the point alright. TK was claiming that the problem with ASICs is that "some limitations or bugs will never be resolved for a scope that was already sold". And then proceeded to give an example that would have required a hardware addition in any case, whether ASIC or FPGA-based.

Regarding the advantages of upgrading to a larger FPGA (in a revised scope generation) vs. re-spinning an ASIC which you claim, I'd say:

* Releasing an updated scope with enhanced hardware (FPGA) specs seems quite uncommon indeed. Can you name a few examples where manufacturers -- whether Chinese or US brands -- have done so?
* You may be overestimating the NRE cost for re-spinning an ASIC. See here for example. http://blog.zorinaq.com/asic-development-costs-are-lower-than-you-think/
--- End quote ---
I think the Siglent SDS2000X is an updated version of the SDS2000. There are also many scopes with A-B-C-D versions. Still with an FPGA you can choose to use a different size one right up to the point when the first pre-production prototypes are produced. With an ASIC you have to plan ahead. From the comments in the link you provided you'll see that the costs quoted on the website are very low. A bitcoin mining ASIC is probably also relatively simple because the same (small) structure is repeated many times to increase processing speed.

One of the comments:
Unfortunately the examples don't provide a measure of the ASIC's complexity. Pre-tapeout expenses (designers' headcount) will be a function of how many testable features are included on the chip. In my experience I've NEVER seen an ASIC project team complete a design for less than $500K USD, regardless of location.

ebastler:

--- Quote from: nctnico on April 05, 2019, 06:36:09 pm ---A bitcoin mining ASIC is probably also relatively simple because the same (small) structure is repeated many times to increase processing speed.

One of the comments:
Unfortunately the examples don't provide a measure of the ASIC's complexity. Pre-tapeout expenses (designers' headcount) will be a function of how many testable features are included on the chip. In my experience I've NEVER seen an ASIC project team complete a design for less than $500K USD, regardless of location.

--- End quote ---

That's a valid point; the ASIC complexity will impact the price, of course. I don't dare to compare the complexity of a Bitcoin miner vs. a scope data processor. Recent FPGA-based Bitcoin miners use FPGAs with some horsepower, e.g. Xilinx Kintex-7, so they might well be comparable in complexity to an oscilloscope.

But even if the full cost of an ASIC development project is somewhat higher than the $200k..$300k stated in the blog post, only part of that (mainly the mask cost) will recur if you need to create a slightly modified version of a working design.

Anyway, the biggest unknown in any estimates is probably the number of scopes Rigol produces and sells. If they have to re-spin the ASIC after one year, are those $200k (or whatever) of mask costs amortized over 10k scopes, or 100k, or what number?

Martin72:

--- Quote --- There are also many scopes with A-B-C-D versions.
--- End quote ---

Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 and 3000Z Series - Same features, same look, but better (faster) hardware in the Z-models

tautech:

--- Quote from: Martin72 on April 05, 2019, 07:27:48 pm ---
--- Quote --- There are also many scopes with A-B-C-D versions.
--- End quote ---

Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 and 3000Z Series - Same features, same look, but better (faster) hardware in the Z-models

--- End quote ---
SDS3000 and SDS3000X  ;)

Martin72:
Hehe…. ;)

We shouldn´t forget the topic:

Should I buy a Rigol MSO5000..
Yes, if you couldn´t / won´t spend more money on it.
And more means in this case really more.
And speculations about possible hardware-updates somewhere in the future, well…
Today is today, maybe a better screen will be implemented, maybe an internal 50 \$\Omega\$ Input will be implemented. ( the DSO/MSO7000 got it now and here but costs as much as the entry R&S RTB(which hadn´t a 50 ohm Input)- but I would go definitely for the RTB instead)
Maybe in 2yrs, maybe in 3yrs, maybe never and a new model comes out, who knows it now, that shouldn´t be a point for buying a scope or not.
How much could I spend for it, are there alternatives for this money, are they better/equal/worse, what will I do with it…and so on.

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