Author Topic: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?  (Read 16299 times)

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Offline bdunham7

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2021, 03:10:08 am »
Nobody got fired for buying IBMKeysight is the operative phrase for this thread. Time is money, so if you're using your bench to make money, you are going to invariably prefer to buy products that are proven and have a good support network. Even more so if you are going to have clients/sponsors visiting your premises. A bench equipped with top brands makes a statement....a bench filled with not so top brands can make another statement that may not be desirable.

Yes, and it will take a lot for those attitudes to shift.  Even seeing and using the other brands as a hobbyist or in an educational setting isn't going to do the trick.  For those of you that don't get this, imagine you are a large company with a complex, expensive product (say aerospace or medical) and you are subbing out the design and manufacture of some non-critical ancillary product, like a power supply or test jig or whatever.  You go to visit your prospective subcontractor and they show you their lab which has an Ikea workbench with an Aneng bench meter, an Owon scope and a Kaiweets power supply, along with bags of parts kits from Aliexpress.  Maybe that stuff all works, but impressed you will not be. 

Tektronix took over the scope market because they invented a practical trigger circuit that could be integrated into a reasonably priced (a relative term...) oscilloscope.  Perhaps Siglent will make some progress towards a market takeover when they come up with a revolutionary new useful feature unique to them instead of being the 'almost as good for a lot less money' brand.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Offline bdunham7

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2021, 05:33:44 am »
A good example is the Tektronix AFG31000 I bought recently. The UI has some rough edges because it is a new touchscreen based UI instead of the usual Tektronix interface but the signal generation part is rock solid. The latter has been engineered and perfected during the decades that Tektronix has been making these kind of function generators. According to the datasheet a Siglent SDG2000x generator would be better bang for buck but unfortunately it has a bug in the modulation part (probably accumulating rounding error) which makes it useless for my purposes.

Could you verify the AFG31000 bug that Shahriar showed in his phase noise video?  Apparently FM modulation causes the center frequency to shift down up, so if you are putting out a plain carrier on one channel and a modulated signal on the other and put both on a scope, the modulated signal will 'walk' to the left.  It might be a simple math error in the FM algorithm.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2021, 05:42:01 am by bdunham7 »
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2021, 09:35:19 am »
I do have time for nctnico he has a lot of very practical experiance over a wide range of subjects, far more than my limited /PDN/green energy/Audio and psu designs. Athough he is not to fond of Rigol which would a fair assement  :box:
That assesment is not entirely accurate. The thing is that when I look at relatively new Rigol oscilloscopes and go through all the user experiences/reviews I never get the impression that the firmware is really rock solid. I know you are very happy with the Rigol MSO8000 but for my line of work I need to be sure of is whether things like all the combinations for protocol triggering work as advertised. I could need it for a next project. That is also why I do so much rigorous testing when I check out a new oscilloscope. It is hard for me to plan equipment purchases ahead of a problem because I get to work on so many different types of projects.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2021, 09:47:57 am by nctnico »
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2021, 09:41:53 am »
A good example is the Tektronix AFG31000 I bought recently. The UI has some rough edges because it is a new touchscreen based UI instead of the usual Tektronix interface but the signal generation part is rock solid. The latter has been engineered and perfected during the decades that Tektronix has been making these kind of function generators. According to the datasheet a Siglent SDG2000x generator would be better bang for buck but unfortunately it has a bug in the modulation part (probably accumulating rounding error) which makes it useless for my purposes.

Could you verify the AFG31000 bug that Shahriar showed in his phase noise video?  Apparently FM modulation causes the center frequency to shift down up, so if you are putting out a plain carrier on one channel and a modulated signal on the other and put both on a scope, the modulated signal will 'walk' to the left.  It might be a simple math error in the FM algorithm.
This isn't a bug. In the end there is a limited amount of precission to generate the waveform and that is causing what Shahriar is showing in the video. Any AWG has this issue but it isn't always specified.

From the AFG31000 datasheet:
Frequency accuracy
±10e-6 of setting (all except ARB), 0 °C to 50 °C (32 °F to 122 °F)
±10e-6 of setting ± 1 μHz (ARB), 0 °C to 50 °C (32 °F to 122 °F)

« Last Edit: August 22, 2021, 09:45:42 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2021, 09:45:05 am »
Nobody got fired for buying IBMKeysight is the operative phrase for this thread. Time is money, so if you're using your bench to make money, you are going to invariably prefer to buy products that are proven and have a good support network. Even more so if you are going to have clients/sponsors visiting your premises. A bench equipped with top brands makes a statement....a bench filled with not so top brands can make another statement that may not be desirable.

Yes, and it will take a lot for those attitudes to shift.  Even seeing and using the other brands as a hobbyist or in an educational setting isn't going to do the trick.  For those of you that don't get this, imagine you are a large company with a complex, expensive product (say aerospace or medical) and you are subbing out the design and manufacture of some non-critical ancillary product, like a power supply or test jig or whatever.  You go to visit your prospective subcontractor and they show you their lab which has an Ikea workbench with an Aneng bench meter, an Owon scope and a Kaiweets power supply, along with bags of parts kits from Aliexpress.  Maybe that stuff all works, but impressed you will not be. 

Tektronix took over the scope market because they invented a practical trigger circuit that could be integrated into a reasonably priced (a relative term...) oscilloscope.  Perhaps Siglent will make some progress towards a market takeover when they come up with a revolutionary new useful feature unique to them instead of being the 'almost as good for a lot less money' brand.

You wrote a lot in few responses and I'm not going to respond to all of it, but what you responded is just more of the same: in this case you still equate all Chinese brands to be equal while they're not, same as not EU or USA brands are equal. Equating Aneng and Brymen and Owon and Siglent and Rigol is pretty much not right, not to say insulting to some of these companies..

In addition to that, of course it only matters to compete to current products with current products.

Your comparison with TBS2204B is also very wrong.  TBS2204B is quite unusual product that is a bog standard scope that has less capability than SDS1104X-E, and there is no scenario where it is superior and more usefull. It has one and only one quite unusual feature that it has TekVPI active probe interface, which is weird, because there is so little you can do with the scope and then you buy 15000€ of probes for it? Surely you would never have that one as a primary scope, but maybe you could get that one to supplement your primary big Tek so you could use same probes occasionally and would us that one for every day simple probing around not to fire up big expensive primary scope for little things.
As a only and primary scope? Why would you want to do that? If you wanted brand name, you could get Keysight DSOX2014A or DSOX1204G for half the money and get a superb scope in comparison.

But as I said your comparison is wrong. Because you should be comparing money for money: Is TBS2204B  better and superior to Siglent SDS2354X+ or Rigol Rigol DSO/MSO7014 that are in the same price bracket?  I would like to see in what opposite universe is that true...

So I do agree prejudice exists in people, I know it does, QED, but not in all people. And as you say, when they have a product that is different enough that it prompts attention, it will get attention.
But times have changed from 20-30-40 years ago. Technical differences are not only differentiation factor you have today. You mentioned triggering: both mentioned alternatives to TBS2204B  have zone triggering, that on Keysight you have to jump up to 3000T series and with Tek to new MSO4 series.
Bringing advanced features to lower pricing ranges (like I said, for Tek 3000 USD is entry level pricing) is innovation. And one that is very much liked by those who have to make decisions how to purchase equipment.

Welcome to the brave new world where when you buy servers via contract with IBM you get Lenovo...

Regards,
Sinisa
« Last Edit: August 22, 2021, 10:18:33 am by 2N3055 »
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2021, 09:50:02 am »
You are skipping over the part where the TBS2204B has better overdrive recovery compared to the Siglent bdunham7 mentioned. If that is what you need for a measurement then the TBS2204B is a better choice. For some of the measurements I do I need to get the steepest edge into the trigger so I like to use 100mV/div (or even lower) to do a measurement on a 5Vpp signal where I only care about the position of the edges. This measurement is only possible when the overdrive recovery is really good. Unfortunately overdrive recovery isn't always specified in the datasheet.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2021, 10:14:49 am by nctnico »
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Offline tautech

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2021, 09:56:13 am »
But as I said your comparison is wrong. Because you should be comparing money for money: Is TBS2204B  better and superior to Siglent SDS2354X+ or Rigol Rigol DSO/MSO7014 that are in the same price bracket?  I would like to see in what opposite universe is that true...

So I do agree prejudice exists in people, I know it does, QED, but not in all people. And as you say, when they have a product that is different enough that it prompts attention, it will get attention.
But times have changed from 20-30-40 years ago. Technical differences are not only differentiation factor you have today. You mentioned triggering: both mentioned alternatives to TBS2204B  have zone triggering, that on Keysight you have to jump up to 3000T series and with Tek to new MSO4 series.
Bringing advanced features to lower pricing ranges (like I said, for Tek 3000 USD is entry level pricing) is innovation. And one that is very much liked by those who have to make decisions how to purchase equipment.

Welcome to the world where when you buy servers via contract with IBM you get Lenovo...

Regards,
Sinisa
Dual zone triggering.  ;)
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2021, 10:54:38 am »
You are skipping over the part where the TBS2204B has better overdrive recovery compared to the Siglent bdunham7 mentioned. If that is what you need for a measurement then the TBS2204B is a better choice. For some of the measurements I do I need to get the steepest edge into the trigger so I like to use 100mV/div (or even lower) to do a measurement on a 5Vpp signal where I only care about the position of the edges. This measurement is only possible when the overdrive recovery is really good. Unfortunately overdrive recovery isn't always specified in the datasheet.

Now THAT is a valid argument. You have something specific, a specific technical requirement that doesn't get fulfilled, unless you buy specific piece of equipment.

But "there be dragons" (pun intended :-DD) fear mongering  of unspecified troubles that lay ahead is not something I subscribe to. I don't like it in politics, and much less in engineering.

As I said before, you, personally, usually have specific, documented reasons for your choices. You got your AFG31000 because it was capable of generating specific signal that other AWGs didn't (including Keysight AWG).
That is good engineering. You made research and found a piece of equipment that does the job.
I might go and solve the same problem differently and use different solution, but it doesn't take any merit from your decisions.
That particular AWG works for your task, and all of these don't, for the reason of XYZ...
You did research and made valid decisions based on the premise.  :-+

On the same token, would I rather have Siglent SDS2354X+ on my desk (as a primary scope) instead TBS2204B ? Absolutely I would go with Siglent, because if you take into account ALL the things you do with scope, even if one single thing is better on TBS2204B , all other things are in favor of SDS2354X+ and that makes it that  on average it would be more useful. You could accomplish more work done with it.  If that is not a good figure of merit, than I don't know what is..

Unless you're have a technician that checks some sensor current all day long, and uses specific Tek current probe, because that is how characterization document was written. Then you get that probe, TBS2204B and teach technician the procedure. In that case, that is good engineering. It's  simple and works.

For specific requirements specific tools. For general purpose, more versatile, the better. Versatile is not compatible with simple and devoid of functions...
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2021, 04:02:47 pm »
This isn't a bug. In the end there is a limited amount of precission to generate the waveform and that is causing what Shahriar is showing in the video. Any AWG has this issue but it isn't always specified.

From the AFG31000 datasheet:
Frequency accuracy
±10e-6 of setting (all except ARB), 0 °C to 50 °C (32 °F to 122 °F)
±10e-6 of setting ± 1 μHz (ARB), 0 °C to 50 °C (32 °F to 122 °F)


Perhaps this should be discussed in another thread, but I'm still thinking it's a bug, one similar to the SDG2042X bug.  The frequency accuracy refers to the TCXO stability AFIAK, but on a two-channel AWG I think FM causing a shift in the center frequency compared to the other channel is either a mistake or deliberate shortcut in how you calculate the waveform points.  There shouldn't be a cumulative error even though you don't have infinite precision.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2021, 04:25:55 pm »
This isn't a bug. In the end there is a limited amount of precission to generate the waveform and that is causing what Shahriar is showing in the video. Any AWG has this issue but it isn't always specified.

From the AFG31000 datasheet:
Frequency accuracy
±10e-6 of setting (all except ARB), 0 °C to 50 °C (32 °F to 122 °F)
±10e-6 of setting ± 1 μHz (ARB), 0 °C to 50 °C (32 °F to 122 °F)


Perhaps this should be discussed in another thread, but I'm still thinking it's a bug, one similar to the SDG2042X bug.  The frequency accuracy refers to the TCXO stability AFIAK,
No. Frequency stability is a different thing.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online mawyatt

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2021, 05:30:48 pm »
Long ago large companies didn't pay "list" price for HP and Tektronix products, they had massive discounts. At these companies the total cost of ownership must be considered, and the learning curve for unfamiliar equipment was expensive, so the use of HP and Tek equipment became a standard. Certification in-house and external also played into this. The USG had strict rules on test equipment and certification, they even had evidence of "cheating" on production equipment (know of one instance at a unethical company that modified an SMA attenuator to pass a power test).

This cost of equipment ownership became the basis for the founding of the USF University WAMI program, which exposed students to quality, modern test and measurement equipment. I was able to get significant $ contributions to this program over a decade long participation by "selling" this to senior company executives that held the purse strings. The "sale" was simply, "it's way cheaper to have new grads learn how to use the latest equipment while in school rather than on your payroll" :-+

HP and Tektronix donated significant equipment to this program (we donated $), later followed by R&S and others. CAD tools spotted this and followed, later including Cadence. Early on we tried to get a program that allowed grad students to design their own chips, get them fabricated (IBM was a candidate fab), then get to test them. Unfortunately the lack of university management vision squandered this opportunity :P

Anyway, I don't believe that Keysight and Tektronix are the same as in the past, which has opened the door for "others" to move up.
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
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Offline 0culus

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2021, 05:50:23 pm »
Long ago large companies didn't pay "list" price for HP and Tektronix products, they had massive discounts. At these companies the total cost of ownership must be considered, and the learning curve for unfamiliar equipment was expensive, so the use of HP and Tek equipment became a standard. Certification in-house and external also played into this. The USG had strict rules on test equipment and certification, they even had evidence of "cheating" on production equipment (know of one instance at a unethical company that modified an SMA attenuator to pass a power test).

This cost of equipment ownership became the basis for the founding of the USF University WAMI program, which exposed students to quality, modern test and measurement equipment. I was able to get significant $ contributions to this program over a decade long participation by "selling" this to senior company executives that held the purse strings. The "sale" was simply, "it's way cheaper to have new grads learn how to use the latest equipment while in school rather than on your payroll" :-+

HP and Tektronix donated significant equipment to this program (we donated $), later followed by R&S and others. CAD tools spotted this and followed, later including Cadence. Early on we tried to get a program that allowed grad students to design their own chips, get them fabricated (IBM was a candidate fab), then get to test them. Unfortunately the lack of university management vision squandered this opportunity :P

Anyway, I don't believe that Keysight and Tektronix are the same as in the past, which has opened the door for "others" to move up.

Nevertheless, they (and Rohde) still have the best support networks and are able to meet all the procurement rules for .gov type customers. I don't think anyone else is going to muscle into that space anytime soon, at least in the west.

It's plainly obvious that certain people in this thread are some combination of (1) never worked in a higher end professional lab or (2) have never done procurement for said environment or (3) are being willfully ignorant of the points I brought up in my post above. The shiny new models from Siglent are a great value for the hobbyist of some means (they are getting expensive but manageable for someone who has a good paying day job and has disposable income), but they (and others) are not "there yet" in many ways. Product support matters. If it breaks, the big name companies will get it fixed and in the meantime can often quickly get you a loaner to keep you moving. Optics matter, too. Visiting clients and sponsors are NOT going to be favorably impressed when they see you cheaped out on your equipment. Is it prejudiced? Maybe, but it's the way it is.
 

Online mawyatt

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2021, 06:26:14 pm »
With todays instruments relying so much on firmware, the hardware becomes almost a given (similar) with lower and mid range equipment. It seems to follow the same path as the personal computers with the PC and Mac, the hardware has merged and very similar, so the OS defines the computer.

Also good point about the "after sale support", certainly KS, Tektronix/LeCroy, R&S have this already in place and have done so for decades. This also plays into the overall "cost of ownership" mentioned, if one has to jump thru all sorts of hoops to get after sale support, then how much is that worth? If you are a hobbyist, or retired (like myself), then time doesn't matter as much, however if you are working and time is valuable, then what is that worth??

Think it's interesting that Siglent has made some inroads by supplying LeCroy with lower tier products, likely Rigol ( & others) have done so with other big name equipment OEMs.

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
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Offline Sighound36

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2021, 06:37:22 pm »
I do have time for nctnico he has a lot of very practical experiance over a wide range of subjects, far more than my limited /PDN/green energy/Audio and psu designs. Athough he is not to fond of Rigol which would a fair assement  :box:
That assesment is not entirely accurate. The thing is that when I look at relatively new Rigol oscilloscopes and go through all the user experiences/reviews I never get the impression that the firmware is really rock solid. I know you are very happy with the Rigol MSO8000 but for my line of work I need to be sure of is whether things like all the combinations for protocol triggering work as advertised. I could need it for a next project. That is also why I do so much rigorous testing when I check out a new oscilloscope. It is hard for me to plan equipment purchases ahead of a problem because I get to work on so many different types of projects.

I understand each situation is different and in a specific industrial or advanced R&D lab then yes unquestionably accuracy, repeatability and stability are key features no question.

The Rigol 8000 has genuinelly been absolutely rock steady and no issues have I found when using it which is almost daily. Now when I am conducting our critcal measurments then yes I will use the Wavepro no question or one of the othe Lecroy's. Though on occasions; I have out of curiousity fired up the Rigol just to see how good in REAL terms it compares against a a quality reference. It does stand up very well indeed in a few areas no question. I would suggest this Rigol model is more than a hobbist scope, maybe a semi pro range but with some really nice features. Its also been robost and stable.

The thing is were are arguing around minutiae I feel, all of the contibutors on this thread have make some valid points which the original O.P. should take into account when deciding to try out any of the suggestions.

I love my Lecroys, but realise these are not small invetsiments these are LONG term instruments of quality and performance and should be treated as such to maintain their peak performance (as with any quality T&E equipment) I have a couple of companies so these are business purchases. Unless there are a few retired well heeled company director looking to reduce their pensions fund by £40k or so to play electronics in the extensive 3 double garage electronics man cave then the pooch is royally screwed!

What I feel is that is easy to brand all Chinese equipment as second rate, well its not and hasn't been the case for quite a while, they have been  at some of the level of the 'certified big four' in a few areas YES. It is easy to highlight, look at the Keysight new under £1k affordable hidious bench series (i understand their rationale, but both Rigol and Siglent are a beter bet here no question) or some of entry level R&S scopes sorry no have owned some of these. Tek's more expensive scopes are really not that clever at all, but yet demand premium prices in their applicable ranges.

Sinsia made some quite pertinet points as well, given the short space of time these 'Far east upstarts' have been trading they have made some quite decent gains in a far shorter time that a big given their 40 or so year lead on these companies makes you think?

Whether they will ever achieve the status of the big, who's know's? but they will keep improving and the time span will decrease with every spin of the board.

I have a  SNA 5104A stuck in UK customs currently so time will tell. Good discourse though chaps!

« Last Edit: August 22, 2021, 07:25:49 pm by Sighound36 »
Seeking quality measurement equipment at realistic cost with proper service backup. If you pay peanuts you employ monkeys.
 
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Online tv84

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2021, 06:54:21 pm »
are being willfully ignorant of the points I brought up in my post above.

 :wtf: "willfully ignorant" of your points? Can't that category apply to you regarding other guy's comments?

I think everybody here is big boy and understands perfectly well what is being said. There is absolutely no question that everybody should use the model/brand that provides him with the quality needed for doing his job. Period. What started all of this is that previous decade long experiences for older brands is not a guarantee, in itself, of eternal leadership in all fields, in all price ranges for these TE brands.

Regarding the "buy IBM" moto, I find this a good text. In the last decades, the telco world has seen much of it also regarding Cisco products. In both cases things have changed. Fortunately for all of us there are plenty of multi-billion systems in the world not IBM based and not Cisco based.

Fortunately for all of us, there are companies like Siglent and Rigol doing the type of equipments they are trying to do with the prices they are presenting.
 
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Online tv84

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2021, 07:03:10 pm »
The Rigol 8000 has genuinelly been absolutely rock steady and no issues have I found when using it which is almost daily. Now when I am conducting our critcal measurments then yes I will use the Wavepro no question or one of the othe Lecroy's. Though on accions I have out of curiousity fired up the Rigol just to see how good in REAL terms it compares against a a quality reference. It does stand up very well indeed in afew areas no question. I would suggest this Rigol model is more than a hobbist scope, maybe a semi pro range but with some really nice features. Its also been robost and stable.

This comment from this man makes me feel the MSO8000 is a great machine in its price range.

Of course, no question about Sighound36 other toys.  :)
 
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Offline bdunham7

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2021, 07:25:43 pm »
in this case you still equate all Chinese brands to be equal while they're not, same as not EU or USA brands are equal. Equating Aneng and Brymen and Owon and Siglent and Rigol is pretty much not right, not to say insulting to some of these companies..

I'm not equating or even comparing the various brands--which would be pointless in the general--I'm just pointing out that to some, Siglent and Rigol are as far beneath their contempt as Aneng, Owon and Kaiweets are to you.  And since Aneng meters are generally accurate, an Owon scope with a MicSig DP probe would probably suffice for looking at PSU concerns and Kaiweets power suppies put out, well, power, why do you regard them so? 

Quote
Your comparison with TBS2204B is also very wrong.  TBS2204B is quite unusual product that is a bog standard scope that has less capability than SDS1104X-E, and there is no scenario where it is superior and more usefull. It has one and only one quite unusual feature that it has TekVPI active probe interface..... you should be comparing money for money

What I'm telling you is that well-heeled buyers of professional equipment often are not comparing "money for money" or obsessing over how many features can be crammed in at a price point.  They want stuff that 'just works' and that they have a high confidence level in.  The price of a TBS2204B is probably  dwarfed by other concerns for most potential customers.  And as far as capability--have you actually used both scopes?  I have, and I wouldn't consider them at all comparable.  The TekVPI is not 'weird' to have, it is incredibly useful in a large corporate or institutional setting.

TekVPI aside, I can readily demonstrate perhaps 5 straightforward instances where the Tek is vastly superior to the SDS1104X-E, and probably the SDS2000+ series as well, except of course for hackable (or purchasable) bandwidth.  And I mean real cases that I've run into trying to solve real problems where the Tek would 'get the job done' but the Siglent would not.  That's OK at $500, but if those issues are due to a lack of institutional knowledge at Siglent, they aren't going to miraculously disappear in their more expensive products.  If they cheaped out, well OK, it's a $500 scope, no problem.

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In addition to that, of course it only matters to compete to current products with current products.

Well perhaps to the corporate or institutional buyer, but if the legacy products are available they are a viable choice for me--and many small businesses.  But what is more interesting to me is to make those comparisons on a technical basis.  Forget the TBS2204B, I can demonstrate real issues (failures to measure properly resulting in needing to use a different instrument) with the SDS1104X-E that an ancient, decrepit Tek TDS340A handles correctly. 

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Welcome to the brave new world where when you buy servers via contract with IBM you get Lenovo...

And when you buy LeCroy you get.....??  Perhaps Siglent will acquire them someday.  :)
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2021, 08:35:02 pm »
Nevertheless, they (and Rohde) still have the best support networks and are able to meet all the procurement rules for .gov type customers. I don't think anyone else is going to muscle into that space anytime soon, at least in the west.
So you might think.  :-//
Our largest customer is .gov departments.  :popcorn:
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Offline Sighound36

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2021, 09:11:35 pm »
Indeed a lot of eductaional facilities are accquiring Both Rigol and Siglent products here now, Tek along with R&S have always have the monoply on the red brick universities and larger conglomerates plus those Government departs we cannot discuss. These go back a long way in the UK.

Although talking to more UK bodies it seems unless its ' 5G/6G/800G/Green Energy/Telecomunication or battery tech project then the bean counters are having a lot more of a say so both Rigol and Siglent will have more a stake in these foundation building business areas
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Online 2N3055

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2021, 09:14:43 pm »
Long ago large companies didn't pay "list" price for HP and Tektronix products, they had massive discounts. At these companies the total cost of ownership must be considered, and the learning curve for unfamiliar equipment was expensive, so the use of HP and Tek equipment became a standard. Certification in-house and external also played into this. The USG had strict rules on test equipment and certification, they even had evidence of "cheating" on production equipment (know of one instance at a unethical company that modified an SMA attenuator to pass a power test).

This cost of equipment ownership became the basis for the founding of the USF University WAMI program, which exposed students to quality, modern test and measurement equipment. I was able to get significant $ contributions to this program over a decade long participation by "selling" this to senior company executives that held the purse strings. The "sale" was simply, "it's way cheaper to have new grads learn how to use the latest equipment while in school rather than on your payroll" :-+

HP and Tektronix donated significant equipment to this program (we donated $), later followed by R&S and others. CAD tools spotted this and followed, later including Cadence. Early on we tried to get a program that allowed grad students to design their own chips, get them fabricated (IBM was a candidate fab), then get to test them. Unfortunately the lack of university management vision squandered this opportunity :P

Anyway, I don't believe that Keysight and Tektronix are the same as in the past, which has opened the door for "others" to move up.

Nevertheless, they (and Rohde) still have the best support networks and are able to meet all the procurement rules for .gov type customers. I don't think anyone else is going to muscle into that space anytime soon, at least in the west.

It's plainly obvious that certain people in this thread are some combination of (1) never worked in a higher end professional lab or (2) have never done procurement for said environment or (3) are being willfully ignorant of the points I brought up in my post above. The shiny new models from Siglent are a great value for the hobbyist of some means (they are getting expensive but manageable for someone who has a good paying day job and has disposable income), but they (and others) are not "there yet" in many ways. Product support matters. If it breaks, the big name companies will get it fixed and in the meantime can often quickly get you a loaner to keep you moving. Optics matter, too. Visiting clients and sponsors are NOT going to be favorably impressed when they see you cheaped out on your equipment. Is it prejudiced? Maybe, but it's the way it is.

Let me first start with the fact that I'm aware of your vast experience and consider you excellent engineer. I read your posts with utmost respect.
But it this particular case you missed the whole point.
Topic is not "How Boeing choses R&D" equipment.
It was started by a person that has small consulting business. His business is similar in size to mine, Mike's , Sighound36, Nico's etc.

I absolutely don't know how it is when USA manufacturer makes a deal with USAF. I'm not from USA and cannot know that.
Also it is quite obvious that USAF can simply request that Chinese equipment cannot be used for a project for them, for security reasons. Perfectly valid argument for them.
Heck, if a customer comes with a 150000 USD project to me, but insists that it should be done only with Keysight equipment worth 20000 USD, off I am ordering it right away.

That is not the point. Point is is it necessary?  For a small company?
Not anymore for general purpose work, in my experience. Specialized tools and niche products are exception.
But you are correct. I don't know how it is in USA, and what cultural prejudices are and how important they are.

OP asked for experiences, to help him make a purchasing decision. And experiences came back that Rigol MSO8000, while not super high end equipment, does a decent job and is well worth the money and is comparable to A brands in how useful it is for the money. MSO8000 is NOT a hobby scope. It is not high end, but it is not amateur hour.
Also it was hinted that Siglent might come out with something even better soon..
When they release new products, all will see how well it does. But it also won't be hobby product.
So answer to OP is that they should try to get test scopes in question and see if it works for them.

As for support, if it breaks, Rigol and Siglent will replace it too. And give you loaners if you need. And support you.

I agree the Tek or Keysight are not the same as they where ... I don't even think they are worse somehow, but different. They made a decision to be different type of companies.
And I agree, that did open space for others. And they jumped in..

Way I see it, A brands don't even care. They are only interested in super high profit T&M markets, and don't care for what used to be their bread and butter...
In their own parlance they "evolved" and "repositioned" themselves.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2021, 09:22:07 pm »

TekVPI aside, I can readily demonstrate perhaps 5 straightforward instances where the Tek is vastly superior to the SDS1104X-E, and probably the SDS2000+ series as well, except of course for hackable (or purchasable) bandwidth.  And I mean real cases that I've run into trying to solve real problems where the Tek would 'get the job done' but the Siglent would not.  That's OK at $500, but if those issues are due to a lack of institutional knowledge at Siglent, they aren't going to miraculously disappear in their more expensive products.  If they cheaped out, well OK, it's a $500 scope, no problem.


I would genuinely like to know these cases, details etc.
That would be great contribution by you and I would personally make sure those get presented to Siglent as an example what needs to be improved.
Also it would be great service to Siglent users to learn.

Would you be willing to quickly summarize your biggest showstoppers where Tek would be vastly superior to SDS2000X+, please?
I'm sure Siglent would like to know, and maybe they can address it for the good of all current and future users.

Thanks for the good discussion.

Best,
 Sinisa
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2021, 09:22:43 pm »
given the short space of time these 'Far east upstarts' have been trading they have made some quite decent gains in a far shorter time that a big given their 40 or so year lead on these companies makes you think?

Whether they will ever achieve the status of the big, who's know's? but they will keep improving and the time span will decrease with every spin of the board.

It is a lot easier to make rapid progress when you are following the leaders.  I have nothing against the newcomers, but I would prefer to be realistic about where they actually are.  If a new product does not do well against a decades-old legacy product in any area or test of significance, they aren't there yet.  And I'm not talking about tradeoffs due to deliberate design choices, or at least I think I'm not.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2021, 10:26:18 pm »
A good example is the Tektronix AFG31000 I bought recently. The UI has some rough edges because it is a new touchscreen based UI instead of the usual Tektronix interface but the signal generation part is rock solid. The latter has been engineered and perfected during the decades that Tektronix has been making these kind of function generators.

And yet, there's this: https://youtu.be/SOHjFtw0sgo?t=1248

I see that's already been raised, but I thought I'd point directly at what was being referred to.

You claim this is a precision issue, and perhaps it is.  But, firstly, the comparison signal is being generated by the very same instrument and, secondly, the carrier frequency is an integer multiple of the modulating frequency.  Now, admittedly, this is FM modulation, so the instrument has to generate a range of frequencies, and the modulated carrier frequency will appear to match the fundamental carrier frequency only if the average is a direct match.  I guess that might be a tall order for a digitally synthesized signal.

In the video, Shahriar says that the carrier is at 1 MHz while the modulating signal is at 10 KHz.  But what's shown on the screen is clearly a 100 MHz carrier modulated by a 1 MHz tone (EDIT: Correction -- Shahriar said that it's a 1 MHz modulating signal with a 10 kHz deviation.  The carrier is 100 MHz).  In the video, it takes about 13 seconds for the carrier waveform to shift by one cycle.  That's a less than 0.1 Hz deviation between the modulated carrier and the unmodulated 100 MHz tone.  This is well below the 10e-6 specification, but I'm not sure that said specification is what really applies to this.  That specification is, I have to presume, with respect to a standard reference, whereas the issue here is with respect to another signal generated by this very same instrument using the very same clock.  It should be noted that it is only FM that seems to yield this issue.  AM doesn't.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 08:12:39 pm by kcbrown »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2021, 11:06:31 pm »
A good example is the Tektronix AFG31000 I bought recently. The UI has some rough edges because it is a new touchscreen based UI instead of the usual Tektronix interface but the signal generation part is rock solid. The latter has been engineered and perfected during the decades that Tektronix has been making these kind of function generators.

And yet, there's this: https://youtu.be/SOHjFtw0sgo?t=1248

Has that been fixed since Shahriar released that video?
You should have skipped a few posts back. That isn't a bug but a limitation all AWGs have. In the end there is a limited number of point to form a waveform. Tektronix also specifies this in the datasheet. Shariar probably overlooked it in the heat of the moment.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Should I get a Keysight DSOX6004A ?
« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2021, 11:34:20 pm »
You should have skipped a few posts back. That isn't a bug but a limitation all AWGs have. In the end there is a limited number of point to form a waveform. Tektronix also specifies this in the datasheet. Shariar probably overlooked it in the heat of the moment.

Yeah, I just now noticed that and corrected my message appropriately.

But here, the carrier frequency is an integer multiple of the deviation.  A fully upgraded instrument has 128 million points per channel.  The frequency range that it needs to generate is from 99 MHz to 101 MHz.  For special cases like this, it might be possible for a digital signal synthesizer to properly generate the needed waveforms, but the effort needed to do that might not be worth it.

And even so, a modulated carrier frequency of 100 MHz that is less than 1/10 Hz off from its unmodulated form doesn't seem terrible at all.

EDIT: By the way, this is the bug in the Siglent you're referring to, right?   https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-siglent-sdg2042x-thread/msg2893004/#msg2893004

How does that differ from the carrier frequency drift issue we're talking about here?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2021, 11:43:48 pm by kcbrown »
 


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