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Show us your square wave
TunerSandwich:
--- Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on January 30, 2015, 06:42:01 am ---TunerSandwich beat me to it so I don't think it's necessary to reiterate where your misunderstanding is. Just let me address this:
--- Quote from: joeqsmith on January 30, 2015, 03:26:15 am ---Agilent taking on a LeCroy...
Article that explains dead times and compares a few scopes...
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-7885EN.pdf
--- End quote ---
Agilent marketing material as source? Seriously? From a company that has a widely known history of twisting reality up to borderline lying?
I haven't looked at the video but the pdf file is typical Agilent. Based on the listed waveform rates it seems the unspecified WaveSurfer is a WaveSurfer 400 (the first compact LeCroy Windows lower mid-range scope, which ran XP but overall was a very basic scope), which has been out of production for roughly a decade. The WaveRunner waveform data very much looks like a WaveRunner2 LT, which is a VxWorks based scope introduced in 2001 which was stopped being sold roughly 11 years ago. And the WaveJet looks like a WaveJet 300 (non-A) which is a similarly old model. This Agilent paper is dated 2014, but it seems for them to get their point across LeCroy had to compare their current scopes with 10+ year old competitor models. Not that this is surprising, considering their history of being sparse with the full truth.
They also seem to ignore is that most LeCroy scopes reach their max waveform rates in segmented mode. Your WM8k, if I remember right (I don't have the data at hand for that model), is spec'd with around 100k wfms/s. My WP7300A is spec'd with up to 150k wfms (which it does achieve), and TunerSandwich's and my WR64Xi is spec'd with 1.25M wfms/s (which it does achieve as well). Scopes starting with the WRXi also have a mode called "WaveStream" which lets the scope run at much higher update rates than in normal mode. So even though these scopes are pretty old by today's standards they still can achieve high waveform rates, if operated correctly. Of course none of that is mentioned by Agilent.
I guess this is why Agilent obviously had to resort to older models for their "comparison" to "take on LeCroy", because LeCroy's current scopes had look their scopes like toys (at least in the mid-range and high-end, LeCroy's entry level line is still crap). So I guess the bottom line is that their 2014 scopes do pretty well against 10+ year old scopes from their competitors.
Well done Agilent :palm:
--- End quote ---
I also found myself laughing at the Agilent sample rates being touted as "industry leading" "groundbreaking" "unheard of price to performance" etc etc etc etc.....and by that token, found myself rolling on the ground howling when Tek markets the MDO by the same merits.....
It seems like even juan huong lo can offer specs like those.....for pennies on the "big guys" dollars.....and forget it when even comparing to something LeCroy moved on from over 10 years ago....
One thing I will give Agilent over LeCroy though....they don't dick around when it comes to processing performance.....they make easily the most responsive scopes I have ever put my hands on....LeCroy might have gotten better at this, as the computing power in their devices has gone up, but it's still offloaded to a general purpose microprocessor and OS.....and obviously Tek is off in some bubble of another universe when they think their products are competitive (in that regard)
Agilent seems to have a nice way of packaging their equipment into very very nice Ui's....fast to respond, truly excellent layouts....logical hierarchies etc etc....but then when it comes down to the "real" specs....it the same old repackaged chips, from 2 generations ago....which admitedly LeCroy is doing as well....however their chips from "2 generations ago" still seem to offer "more"....
It's very difficult to wade through the bullshit in new scopes and other t&m gear.....makes you just want to buy something that is already "obsolete" but still does exactly what you NEED, and have a good chuckle over the marketing BS some of these companies use to keep the consumer engine running.....
TunerSandwich:
--- Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on January 30, 2015, 06:42:01 am ---
I haven't looked at the video
--- End quote ---
I just watched it, and that is the most feeble basis for comparison I have ever seen....he basically says that "although you can do the same things on the lecroy, you have to know what you are doing.....on the agilent you just draw a box" (this is regarding triggering).....so the marketing here is buy Agilent, because you don't need to know anything about how things work to use it....are you serious? If you can't set-up a basic trigger function, then you have no idea about what you are measuring, how it works, how to solve a potential problem (even if your scope can find it) etc etc etc....
If I may be so bold to revise this marketing video....and sum it up in one catchy phrase, which will most certainly sell it....."Agilent : scopes for those with no time to think
To be fair I have seen some of this same bullshit comparison marketing from LeCroy as well....albeit slightly less ridiculous....why can't these companies just show what they sell, what it does, how much it costs, and what the terms are....I already know what i need, without them telling me who else is doing what.....and then assuming I believe one word of it. Save the money, discount the scope, give me a compelling incentive on that basis (value) and move on.... I already like your products Agilent and don't need a fluffer
Wuerstchenhund:
--- Quote from: TunerSandwich on January 30, 2015, 07:59:09 am ---I also found myself laughing at the Agilent sample rates being touted as "industry leading" "groundbreaking" "unheard of price to performance" etc etc etc etc.....and by that token, found myself rolling on the ground howling when Tek markets the MDO by the same merits.....
--- End quote ---
Indeed. I guess the only "industry leading" thing from them is the amount of BS in their marketing stuff.
--- Quote ---One thing I will give Agilent over LeCroy though....they don't dick around when it comes to processing performance.....they make easily the most responsive scopes I have ever put my hands on....LeCroy might have gotten better at this, as the computing power in their devices has gone up, but it's still offloaded to a general purpose microprocessor and OS.....and obviously Tek is off in some bubble of another universe when they think their products are competitive (in that regard)
Agilent seems to have a nice way of packaging their equipment into very very nice Ui's....fast to respond, truly excellent layouts....logical hierarchies etc etc....but then when it comes down to the "real" specs....it the same old repackaged chips, from 2 generations ago....which admitedly LeCroy is doing as well....however their chips from "2 generations ago" still seem to offer "more"....
--- End quote ---
I have to disagree here a little bit. It's true that Agilents scopes are very responsive, but the same is true for newer LeCroy scopes as well. A DSOX2k/3k is a very responsive scope (don't forget that these are relatively simple scopes using some closed down version of Windows CE), but the same is true for the WaveSurfer 3000 (LeCroy's equivalent of the DSOX3k(T) which is also a closed down Windows Embedded based scope) which is similarly responsive. Newer LeCroy's scopes (X-Stream II using PCIe) that run a full version of Windows are as much responsive as their Agilent/Keysight counterparts.
No argument about Tek who seems to be stuck in the past.
Older LeCroy Windows scopes (X-Stream I scopes which are based on 32bit PCI) like your WRXi could often feel a bit laggy as they were pretty much underpowered, simply because LeCroy cut some corners on CPUs (slow Celerons with small caches, resulting in the CPU getting maxed out regularly) and RAM (which is a bit ridiculous, considering the low prices of better CPUs and the high price tags of these scopes). But these problems can be overcome by simple upgrades. On my WR64Xi, general responsiveness improved noticably after I upgraded from the slow Celeron 1.3Ghz/512k to a Pentium-M 1.8GHz/2MB, the RAM to 1GB (max for that scope) and the painfully slow 4200rpm IDE drive to a modern SATA 5400rpm hard drive (installing updated drivers for chipset, gfx etc helped, too). On my WavePro 7300A (which already came with the LeCroy upgraded processor, a P4 2.53GHz with 512k cache and 533MHz FSB, as well as 2GB RAM), changing the processor to a P4 3.2GHz (1MB cache, 800MHz FSB), upgrading the RAM to 3GB and replacing the old IDE hard drive with a fast intel SATA SSD320, the scope went from laggy to instantaneous reaction to inputs. It's now easily as responsive as the Agilent DSO9k and 90k scopes I use at work.
As to Agilent's UI, I agree for their entry level scopes (i.e. DSOX2k/3k) which do have a nice UI, but as to their desktop Windows based scopes I think the UI isn't great. Yes, they have touch, but it still is pretty obvious that the whole thing was originally designed with mouse control in mind, not with touch, and that it's all based on the mouse UI of the old Infiniium 54800 Series running Windows95 (which wasn't exactly a stellar example of great UI design). Recent scopes gave the UI a bit of an overhaul, but the main flaws remain.
Agilent scopes do have a pretty simple front panel layout, though, and usually come with individual vertical controls for each channel. Aside from the WR6k(A), WP7k(A) and WM8k(A) LeCroy still has a single vertical control for all channels, and while the general layout of most LeCroy scopes is pretty similar across all products (aside WaveAce/WaveJet and WS3k), things like the SUperKnob on the WR6zi/HDO can be confusing to users unfamiliar with that scope.
How important individual vertical controls are is certainly a thing of individual preference. I enjoy the individual knobs on my WP7kA, but the single control on other LeCroy scopes never bothered me (but then I also liked the single knob front panel of the early HP 54500 Series).
--- Quote ---It's very difficult to wade through the bullshit in new scopes and other t&m gear.....makes you just want to buy something that is already "obsolete" but still does exactly what you NEED, and have a good chuckle over the marketing BS some of these companies use to keep the consumer engine running.....
--- End quote ---
Agreed. Not that this is a bad option, though, as buying older gear (especially if it's still supported) can actually save you a lot of money, and in some cases (i.e. Rigol and Siglent scopes) leave the beta testing to someone else.
EV:
--- Quote from: Rupunzell on January 30, 2015, 03:34:04 am ---Could this measurement be run without the RG58 coax, connectors and related adapters? Use only a single adapter if possible between the S4 head and generator output as there appears to be a reflection from the RG58 coax/connectors/adapters.
See circled areas in this altered image:
Bernice
--- End quote ---
Yes it is possible to connect Tek 284 directly to S-4 sampling head with 20 dB attenuator but not easy. It is difficult without a big table and I don't have it now. These reflections do not bother me. There are same reflections in pictures 1 and 2 which are taken without attenuator between the RG58 cable and scope. Look at my reply #249.
Wuerstchenhund:
--- Quote from: TunerSandwich on January 30, 2015, 08:58:56 am ---I just watched it, and that is the most feeble basis for comparison I have ever seen....he basically says that "although you can do the same things on the lecroy, you have to know what you are doing.....on the agilent you just draw a box" (this is regarding triggering).....so the marketing here is buy Agilent, because you don't need to know anything about how things work to use it....are you serious? If you can't set-up a basic trigger function, then you have no idea about what you are measuring, how it works, how to solve a potential problem (even if your scope can find it) etc etc etc....
If I may be so bold to revise this marketing video....and sum it up in one catchy phrase, which will most certainly sell it....."Agilent : scopes for those with no time to think
--- End quote ---
I only had a quick glance at the video, and I agree, it's ridiculous. The first thing that comes to mind is why Agilent felt the need to compare their 2013 scope with a LeCroy scope that came out 8 years earlier and that in the meantime has been succeeded by two generations (WRXi-A, WR6zi).
The firmware on the LeCroy must have been pretty old as well. Notice how it says "LeCroy" in the corner, not "Teledyne LeCroy"?
I guess Agilent was well aware that they needed an 8yr old model to compare to as the WR6zi would have made their DSOX4k like a toy. Which it is compared to a WaveRunner, really, as the correct equivalent would be the WaveSurfer Series.
The other thing I noticed is the instable trigger on the LeCroy, which doesn't look right to me. I guess this guy in the video either has no clue or he deliberately tried to make a competitor look bad.
But overall I'm not surprised, that is exactly the type of crap that Agilent has pulled like forever.
--- Quote ---To be fair I have seen some of this same bullshit comparison marketing from LeCroy as well....albeit slightly less ridiculous....
--- End quote ---
I can't say that I have seen anything even closely similar from LeCroy. In fact, I can't remember ever having seen a video where they "compare" their scope against a competitor's, they always only show their own scopes. Of course they make everything look easy and highlight their selling points (well, who doesn't, that's marketing). But that's about it.
The only place where I saw LeCroy talking about competitors' scopes were a few whitepapers like this:
http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/wp_interpolation_102203.pdf
But even there I'd say it's far from the level of BS you'll find in almost any Agilent whitepaper. All the tests are well described, as are the results, and should be easily reproducable. Looks pretty reasonable to me.
I think there's a huge difference between selling your stuff by putting a positive spin on it and twisting reality up to borderline lying.
--- Quote ---why can't these companies just show what they sell, what it does, how much it costs, and what the terms are....I already know what i need, without them telling me who else is doing what.....and then assuming I believe one word of it. Save the money, discount the scope, give me a compelling incentive on that basis (value) and move on.... I already like your products Agilent and don't need a fluffer
--- End quote ---
I wonder the same. My pet peeves are "Request Quote" buttons. What is hell the problem with just listing how much the damn thing costs? Agilent has prices on the US site but on most variants for other countries (including the UK) all you get is "Request Quote". It's different if I want to order or negotiate but more often than not I find myself thinking that if I have to go through a sales droid to get a simple price that I rather not bother at all.
LeCroy's website is even worse. It lists the base price for some scopes but for everything else I have to through a quote request. Seriously? Why can I configure a luxury car online which comes with hundreds of options, but can't do the same for a scope?
And then there's Tek who's sales droids are even calling me when I dared to download some spec sheet or manual from their website. I guess they must be really desperate these days.
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