Author Topic: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement  (Read 14023 times)

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Offline Bob SavaTopic starter

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Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« on: May 11, 2018, 03:07:46 pm »
For anyone contemplating fan replacement, here are specs of the fan used in SDS1104X-E:

Sleeve bearing, 60mm DFM6025S, 0.11A, 3300RPM, 17.41CFM, 2.56mH2O, 24.64dBm (yeah right  :-DD)


http://www.szdosense.com/eng/products-detail.asp?cpid=177


EDIT: as I was testing few replacement fans I realized that a lot of noise is from enclosure and vent holes, not the fan itself.  Well rated and reviewed Noisebreaker XR2 (15dBm) was still too noisy, and even 11dBm XR1, while totally silent outside, it can be heard once mounted.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 08:01:53 pm by Bob Sava »
 
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Offline TWMIV

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Re: Siglent 1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2018, 03:56:03 pm »
Slap this in there and enjoy the silence then!
https://noctua.at/en/nf-a6x25-flx

This is something that I will probably hold off on until the factory warranty expires. The fan is quite loud though...
 
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Offline Bob SavaTopic starter

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Re: Siglent 1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2018, 04:29:17 pm »
I think two low RPM fans, one blowing (at PSU and Zynq) and other exhausting would be more optimal and pretty much silent.

As to warranty, from what I read, at least in USA, Siglent cannot invalidate warranty w/o proving it was caused by modification.  And, if scope has been running fine for months already the only thing I can think of that could break it are firmware upgrades.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Siglent 1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2018, 05:23:55 pm »
As to warranty, from what I read, at least in USA, Siglent cannot invalidate warranty w/o proving it was caused by modification.  And, if scope has been running fine for months already the only thing I can think of that could break it are firmware upgrades.

I definitely regret not upgrading my Rigol fan sooner. If it's six months old then it's unlikely to fail due to hardware.

(unless you put in a completely unsuitable fan and it overheats, obviously)
 

Offline Bob SavaTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2018, 02:06:34 pm »
I ended up installing two Noisebreaker XR1 fans, one blowing in, the other exhausting (pic).  I  also tried more powerful XR2, which is close to original fan in specs, but two were just too noisy and likely too much.  XR1 attach with no tools, with rubber mounts that came in the box (blue part in the pic) and piece of doublesided foam under blowing fan to keep it in from sliding up and down.

Two fan push-pull configuration seems to work well and is quiet.  I keep wondering why Siglent engineers did not put their single fan on the left side, instead of right, blowing air in - it makes a lot sense to have one on the left since PSU's heatsink, Zynq processor and ADCs are on that side.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 03:05:54 pm by Bob Sava »
 

Offline sibir

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2020, 12:10:11 am »
Just got my SDS 1104X-E (HW version 01-04, whatever that means) and I am seriously bothered by the vent noise.

My Kill-A-Watt tells me that it is using 23 W. Not a whole lot. So I wonder how much air flow is actually needed. Has anybody looked at the running, open unit with an IR camera (I am aware if the emissivity caveat)? How warm do the various parts get? And the Zynq SoC's heatsink? Which component is most critical? Maybe a thermistor based fan speed controller is the solution? Maybe a tiny fan mounted on the heatsink?

If the airflow through the vents is causing the noise and not the fan, I don't understand how having to fans would make it quieter unless the flow is lower despite having 2 fans.

I also came across this interesting comparison of different vent pattern designs with regard to noise:
https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Effects-of-Grill-Patterns-on-Fan-Performance-Noise-107/

Judging by the stacked vent patterns and the partially occluded fan I have the impression Siglent has not paid any attention to the noise issue >:(

My warranty period is apparently 3 years, so I am reluctant to open up my unit just to try things...
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2020, 12:59:57 am »
Just got my SDS 1104X-E (HW version 01-04, whatever that means) and I am seriously bothered by the vent noise.
..........................

Judging by the stacked vent patterns and the partially occluded fan I have the impression Siglent has not paid any attention to the noise issue >:(
Welcome to the forum.

Well that might be your impression but reality is different.
Designers must consider all environments where an instrument might be used and provide adequate cooling to ensure the stated specifications are met. Period.
If a quieter fan can be used in SDS1004X-E models they already would be using one as has already been done in SDS1202X-E units that are somewhat quieter than in early units.

Fan mounting OTOH can be improved so to transfer less harmonics into the chassis so it doesn't reverberate noise such as a loudspeaker might and if you are to attempt to reduce noise I recommend modifying the fan mounting and nothing else. 

Quote
My warranty period is apparently 3 years, so I am reluctant to open up my unit just to try things...
Wise.
If you can leave it for a year to lower the infant mortality risk the need to rely on warranty support should be greatly diminished.
FYI, of the many dozens I've sold just one had a very rare dodgy fan that occasionally would squeal and it was replaced under warranty without issue. Siglent wanted to know everything about that fan as I don't believe they have had other issues with them.
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Offline bluejedi

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2020, 03:21:05 pm »
Another option to further reduce fan noise and improve airflow would be to remove the punched (circulair) grill fom the inner metal casing where the fan is mounted to (using a dremel tool or similar).
The plastic outer casing already contains a (striped) grill that mechanically protects the fan.

Similarly the punched (striped) metal grill on the right side (without fan) will also increase noise and reduce airflow, but probably (much) less substantial.
Removing it may further reduce noise and increase airflow.

As manufactured there are double grills both on the left (fan) side and right side of the scope: both in the metal inner casing and in the plastic outer casing.
Placing one grill behind another increases noise & turbulence and reduces air flow. This will be worse when the grills have different patterns (more obstruction of air flow), which is the case here on the fan side.

No-grill will provide the least noise and best air flow but is not safe. Therefore placing a single grill is standard. The double grills on the SDS1x04X-E however are far from optimal.

Based on my logic and limited knowledge, removing the punched grills from the metal inner casing should not cause any safety issues because the outer plastic casing already provides grills and also the power supply is already shielded with its own metal cover.
If removing the punched metal grills would be an issue (for whatever reason) then they can be replaced with wire grills which are more optimal.

Questions:
  • Does removing the grills from the metal inner casing have any negative impact on safety (regulations), even while the plastic outer casing already provides grills?
  • Could removing the metal grills have any substantial negative impact on RF/noise shielding?

« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 03:38:16 pm by bluejedi »
 

Offline bluejedi

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2020, 03:43:30 pm »
I ended up installing two Noisebreaker XR1 fans

Do you mean Noiseblocker BlackSilent XR-1 ?
 

Offline Bob SavaTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2020, 06:13:58 pm »
You're right: I used two NoiseblockerXR-1 1600rpm 60mm fans.  Later, I also added some copper tape around the fans, just because I could.
 

Offline imk

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2021, 09:30:27 pm »
Have spent some time testing PC fans and much quitter fans can be bought for not a lot.
But maybe adding a fan speed controller would help, as from my experience you only have to reduce the power a little for a quitter fan.
I guess many of us have temperature multimeter probes so would be interesting to see how hot it gets inside the scope in a warm sunny environment with fans running flat out.
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Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2021, 10:11:15 pm »
Another option to further reduce fan noise and improve airflow would be to remove the punched (circulair) grill fom the inner metal casing where the fan is mounted to (using a dremel tool or similar).
The plastic outer casing already contains a (striped) grill that mechanically protects the fan.

Similarly the punched (striped) metal grill on the right side (without fan) will also increase noise and reduce airflow, but probably (much) less substantial.
Removing it may further reduce noise and increase airflow.

As manufactured there are double grills both on the left (fan) side and right side of the scope: both in the metal inner casing and in the plastic outer casing.
Placing one grill behind another increases noise & turbulence and reduces air flow. This will be worse when the grills have different patterns (more obstruction of air flow), which is the case here on the fan side.

No-grill will provide the least noise and best air flow but is not safe. Therefore placing a single grill is standard. The double grills on the SDS1x04X-E however are far from optimal.

Based on my logic and limited knowledge, removing the punched grills from the metal inner casing should not cause any safety issues because the outer plastic casing already provides grills and also the power supply is already shielded with its own metal cover.
If removing the punched metal grills would be an issue (for whatever reason) then they can be replaced with wire grills which are more optimal.

Questions:
  • Does removing the grills from the metal inner casing have any negative impact on safety (regulations), even while the plastic outer casing already provides grills?
  • Could removing the metal grills have any substantial negative impact on RF/noise shielding?
I haven't noticed any resulting from an experiment with my SDS1104X-E completely removing the fan side metal grille which BTW didn't offer any noticeable improvement in fan noise.

Have spent some time testing PC fans and much quitter fans can be bought for not a lot.
But maybe adding a fan speed controller would help, as from my experience you only have to reduce the power a little for a quitter fan.
I guess many of us have temperature multimeter probes so would be interesting to see how hot it gets inside the scope in a warm sunny environment with fans running flat out.
This I believe is the only solution by slowing the fan slightly which must be done very carefully in a scientific manner while monitoring IC and/or exhaust gas temps along with ambient temp changes.
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Offline 1audio

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2021, 05:10:43 am »
I think this https://www.quietpc.com/ac-arctic-f12-tc would be a better choice. Slow unless the sensitive part gets hot. I have used similar in other instruments and it works very well. Key question- where to sense?

These are all quiet compared to a Tek 547. It could be much worse.
 

Offline Neutrion

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2021, 11:58:23 am »
Did anyone ever actually measure, how off the measurements can be with lower airflow? Because I think if the temp is going slowly up and down again, in case of a not properly done temp. control, the measurement values could start oscillating. Was removing the grill causing more measurement noise?
Because from air cisrculation and noise perspective (in case of a properly designed fan of corse.) removing anything downwards from the traiiling edge of the fan blade would absolutely make sense, even in changing efficiency. I would try a Papst with the same dimensions, and pressure curve first to be on the safe side. But don't want to loose the warranty...
 

Offline pope

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2021, 09:56:40 am »
I ended up installing two Noisebreaker XR1 fans, one blowing in, the other exhausting (pic).  I  also tried more powerful XR2, which is close to original fan in specs, but two were just too noisy and likely too much.  XR1 attach with no tools, with rubber mounts that came in the box (blue part in the pic) and piece of doublesided foam under blowing fan to keep it in from sliding up and down.

Two fan push-pull configuration seems to work well and is quiet.  I keep wondering why Siglent engineers did not put their single fan on the left side, instead of right, blowing air in - it makes a lot sense to have one on the left since PSU's heatsink, Zynq processor and ADCs are on that side.



Hi, just wondering whether your scope is still working OK after 3 years? I'm thinking of doing a similar mod so I thought I'd ask for your experience  :)
 

Offline AdiGital

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2022, 07:20:41 pm »
It’s been a while since the last post but I hope this might be of use to some.

After a few months  |O I finally gave up and opened the scope. My idea was to measure critical temperatures and characterise the fan performance based on its voltage – when the scope is fully closed. I attached 3 probes (DS18S20) to the power supply heatsink, FPGA heatsink, and one “loose” inside the case. The probes are attached using double sided heatsink thermal tape, which is quite strong. Additionally, I placed one more probe a few cm from the inlet fan.

Next, I hooked up the SLA1016 logic analyser to give the setup more power draw. I also switched all channels, analog and digital on.
I programmed the SPD3303 to 5 1h slots. Started with 8V increasing it by 1V every hour. Below you can see the graph. I also attached the scope placement. There is not much air movement in the corner.

Looking at the data I take it’s safe to under-volt the fan. I believe I’ve read the operating temperature is up to 40 deg. Here in North-East England, where I live there is rarely above 25 deg outside. Plenty of headroom in my view.

I’m settling with powering the fan with 9V. The noise is much-much lower and bearable. I can barely hear it and it’s not annoying. Besides, it's easy to stick a standard, linear regulator without risking noise from a buck regulator.

I’m planning to do similar experiment with the SDM3055 and STD1062X soon. Can’t stand them fans!

P.S.
I just spotted a mistake. The last slot should be 9V.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2022, 10:29:16 am by AdiGital »
 
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Offline pope

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2022, 09:50:19 pm »
Is there any chance that although the scope would be functional, the measurements won't be accurate?
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2022, 10:05:10 pm »
Is there any chance that although the scope would be functional, the measurements won't be accurate?

Nah.

People worry too much. I don't know about the Siglent but my Rigol DS1054Z was specified to work in ambient temperatures of 50 degrees Celsius so I didn't worry too much about the fan when I swapped it here in my 24 degrees room.

I don't imagine the Siglent's spec is much different.
 
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Offline Domitronic

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2022, 07:23:13 am »

The SDS1104X-E has an operating temperature range from 10°C to 40°C. So not as much as the Rigol. But also more than a typical ambient temperature in most labs.
 

Offline AdiGital

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2022, 10:52:40 am »

The SDS1104X-E has an operating temperature range from 10°C to 40°C. So not as much as the Rigol. But also more than a typical ambient temperature in most labs.

Looking at my chart, when the fan is on full blast (12V) FPGA heatsink is about 31°C above room temp (26°C). Applying that to the max operating temp of 40°C it's safe to assume FPGA at 70°C should be OK.

Yesterday I had it all day on 9V with the logic probe attached and it never went above 63°C. So by limiting the fan voltage I lowered the max operating temperature by 5-6°C (12V=57°C -> 9V=62°C). OK, giving a huge margin, let's say 10°C.

If I ever have 30°C in my room I won't be playing with the scope and be outside with a frosty glass of beer in my hand  ;)
 

Offline Neutrion

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2022, 03:25:38 pm »
Hi AdiGital!
Do I see it right that the Rubycon caps are gone in the power supply? When was your scope built? What kind of caps do you have?

When I measured the FPGA heatsink with the original cooling in a closed house, the FPGA temp was much higher than that (Don't remember right but around 50-60 degree Celsius) and the ADC also around 60.
Are you sure that you attached the probes right? I measured it with a BM789 with original probes, and didn't even stick it to the metal correctly.
Would be an interesting experiment to see whether the ADC would might be less noisier with a heatsink and much lower temp. Did you try to not to destroy the warranty sticker?
 

Offline ceut

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2022, 09:05:51 pm »
Quote from: tautech
Hello !
Thanks to @tautech, I have bought a brand new Siglent SDS1104X-E but super noisy fan  :-[
I use it at home for hobby, I live in a small apartement without any garage or lab, so this one is really annoying me  :-\

He gaves me the link to this topic, so I have just tearing down my DSO to lower the fan voltage which seems to be the only solution available.

Here are some photos of the beginning of the teardown.
>I use my (great and beautiful  8) ) Xiaomi Soccas hairdryer to remove the sticker  :-+
>Then doing some maths to get the 9V power with my Siglent silent ;) PSU

Now thinking about which solution I will use inside it, without doing any irreversible mods for the 3-years warranty.
So I will post my thought later....
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2022, 09:47:15 pm »
At just 57mA fan draw use a LM7809 or LM78L09.
Best to KISS.  ;)
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Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2022, 09:53:44 pm »
Thanks to @tautech, I have bought a brand new Siglent SDS1104X-E but super noisy fan  :-[
:palm:
 

Offline ceut

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E noisy fan replacement
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2022, 10:21:25 pm »
Thanks to @tautech, I have bought a brand new Siglent SDS1104X-E but super noisy fan  :-[
:palm:

I was saying Thanks for Tautech to helping me to choose between Rigol anns Siglent models, and give me this topic link  ;)
Not for the noisy fan: that was a big (and bad) surprise when I switched it on yesterday for the first time ...
 


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