Siglent - 11/20 - New SDS1104X-U, 4 channel 100MHz, 1Gsa/s economy oscilloscope

[Mechatrommer]

also it need remember 1kZ is today least partially obsolete so why compete with already obsolete instrument?.

man you keep throwing troll like that. the other "was" thread, you trolled (maybe unintentionally) that 1kZ has (sounds like) crap FFT. here again i archived it in my reply in that other thread...

No, not direct,  they did not drop FFT to Rigol level...

if you sounds like a fanboy/troll, you'll invite fanboys/troll in as well... if they are really no competition, you should just stop at..

Imho, it is NOT made for competite with Rigol DS1000Z.

now to be clear, i dont care if you like Siglent or Rigol. but when i smell competite Rigol fanboyism thing, i will tease them with my VisaDSO SW capture (long FFT display), there are other diy SWs as well out there in Linux etc, the point is, people made it for Rigol. what i wonder after this long, why nobody come up with diy SW for Siglent? i did see programming manual for the other older series, but since nobody proved it afaik, i conclude it as broken, and i dont own one to try. if someone can come up with even a simplest SW that merely can download all DSO data points to PC with source code example as our guideline, i will give Siglent a thumbs up. but until then, dont call other competites as obsolete DSO. "modern" is about "connectivity", IoT is modern because it can connect to something else, like 5G and smartphones, similar to if DSO can connect to PC for programming and analysis etc not available built-in scope. if something cannot connect, lets call it obsolete . i'm not into brand bashing here, but if its really worth it, prove it. here, another screen captures for your Siglent's pet hates, someone can call it lie, but can we make such as "lie" in Siglent scope? its just for an aesthetics show off, more like an "art" not really can help anything technically cheers friend.

[Fungus]

also it need remember 1kZ is today least partially obsolete so why compete with already obsolete instrument?.

man you keep throwing troll like that. the other "was" thread, you trolled (maybe unintentionally) that 1kZ has (sounds like) crap FFT. here again i archived it in my reply in that other thread...

No, not direct,  they did not drop FFT to Rigol level...

Here's one of the very last pictures ever taken of my DS1054Z, it was doing an FFT at the time. Seems to me like there's some useful information visible there. 

[Mechatrommer]

just to be clear, if you want this FFT buzz, just buy a proper Spectrum Analyzer, those 1Mpts DSPed scope will become obsolete quick.

[nctnico]

just to be clear, if you want this FFT buzz, just buy a proper Spectrum Analyzer, those 1Mpts DSPed scope will become obsolete quick.

No. Because a spectrum analyser doesn't go to near DC frequencies. Also the frequency resolution of 1Mpts FFT will beat a spectrum analyser hands down at low frequencies.

[Fungus]

Removed because I'm reading the wrong Siglent manual.

[Mechatrommer]

just to be clear, if you want this FFT buzz, just buy a proper Spectrum Analyzer, those 1Mpts DSPed scope will become obsolete quick.

No. Because a spectrum analyser doesn't go to near DC frequencies. Also the frequency resolution of 1Mpts FFT will beat a spectrum analyser hands down at low frequencies.

whats the point if it can have leakage in 500Hz bin? anyway, 1Mpts FFT is not something unsolvable in 1kZ+PC. whats no working solution so far (afaik) is 10Mpts FFT Siglent DSO (even +PC). ps: those who are not aware the deeper details of FFT yet, we cant just use all 17Mpts and expect to get 8.5Mpts FFT, it will take ages to compute O(N^2) of simple "any size" FFT algorithm, we'll need O(N.log(N)) such as DIT or KISS FFT, but that need only of size N=2^y (y must be integer) so your 17Mpts must be downgraded to maybe like 10Mpts data in time domain, hence you'll only get 5Mpts FFT. with 24Mpts data, it will downgraded to 20Mpts, hence we can have 10Mpts FFT (50Hz bin instead of 100Hz bin in 5Mpts FFT). fwiw.

[2N3055]

just to be clear, if you want this FFT buzz, just buy a proper Spectrum Analyzer, those 1Mpts DSPed scope will become obsolete quick.

No. Because a spectrum analyser doesn't go to near DC frequencies. Also the frequency resolution of 1Mpts FFT will beat a spectrum analyser hands down at low frequencies.

Where these low-end 'scopes fall down is in their analytical abilities. eg. Here's a scope showing a table of peaks in the signal, with frequency and amplitude. This is way more informative than a picture with wiggly lines in it.



(sorry it's a bit out of focus - it's from a youtube video)

The manufacturers deliberately don't put this stuff in the low end 'scopes. They leave you to mess around with on-screen cursors, etc.

What, like this?

[nctnico]

just to be clear, if you want this FFT buzz, just buy a proper Spectrum Analyzer, those 1Mpts DSPed scope will become obsolete quick.

No. Because a spectrum analyser doesn't go to near DC frequencies. Also the frequency resolution of 1Mpts FFT will beat a spectrum analyser hands down at low frequencies.

Where these low-end 'scopes fall down is in their analytical abilities. eg. Here's a scope showing a table of peaks in the signal, with frequency and amplitude. This is way more informative than a picture with wiggly lines in it.

Actually the GWI GDS-1054B is able to show a table with peaks with the search function combined with FFT. I don't know if the MDO mode can also be activated on it though.

[switchabl]

ps: those who are not aware the deeper details of FFT yet, we cant just use all 17Mpts and expect to get 8.5Mpts FFT, it will take ages to compute O(N^2) of simple "any size" FFT algorithm, we'll need O(N.log(N)) such as DIT or KISS FFT, but that need only of size N=2^y (y must be integer) so your 17Mpts must be downgraded to maybe like 10Mpts data in time domain, hence you'll only get 5Mpts FFT. with 24Mpts data, it will downgraded to 20Mpts, hence we can have 10Mpts FFT (50Hz bin instead of 100Hz bin in 5Mpts FFT). fwiw.

Fortunately this is not the case. The "normal" Cooley-Tukey FFT algorithm can also be used very efficiently for lengths that can be written as a product of small prime numbers (not just power of 2, but 3, 5, 7 etc as well). Even for large prime lengths, you can use something like Bluestein's algorithm, which is not quite as fast but still O(N log(N)).

Often you don't really need to compute a X Mpts FFT anyway. If you only want to see a small frequency span at this kind of resolution, then you can just do DDC (digital down conversion) first and then do a smaller FFT.

Now, this is not usually available on low-end scopes, but as we are talking about off-line analysis on a PC, this is not a problem. You don't have to code it yourself either, there are many, many efficient FFT codes for all kind of lengths available.

[rf-loop]

What, like this?
(Attachment Link)

Is that from the 1000X series? All the 1000X manual has to say about FFT measurement is this:

This is from 1000X-E/X-U manual. Just tiny sample.
Of course there is markers and table and so on.
But if you read 1000X series manual... its your problem.



ETA: and as can see there is err...   ( 8 )

[2N3055]

just to be clear, if you want this FFT buzz, just buy a proper Spectrum Analyzer, those 1Mpts DSPed scope will become obsolete quick.

No. Because a spectrum analyser doesn't go to near DC frequencies. Also the frequency resolution of 1Mpts FFT will beat a spectrum analyser hands down at low frequencies.

whats the point if it can have leakage in 500Hz bin? anyway, 1Mpts FFT is not something unsolvable in 1kZ+PC. whats no working solution so far (afaik) is 10Mpts FFT Siglent DSO (even +PC). ps: those who are not aware the deeper details of FFT yet, we cant just use all 17Mpts and expect to get 8.5Mpts FFT, it will take ages to compute O(N^2) of simple "any size" FFT algorithm, we'll need O(N.log(N)) such as DIT or KISS FFT, but that need only of size N=2^y (y must be integer) so your 17Mpts must be downgraded to maybe like 10Mpts data in time domain, hence you'll only get 5Mpts FFT. with 24Mpts data, it will downgraded to 20Mpts, hence we can have 10Mpts FFT (50Hz bin instead of 100Hz bin in 5Mpts FFT). fwiw.

And if you just paste plots from LTSpice, you don't need scope at all...
Stop trolling about what analysis you can do on PC in a topic about oscilloscopes.

Did you know Rigol DS1054Z can also fly?

You just have to put on an airplane...
Let see if other manufacturer's scopes can do that!!

As Nico nicely says, there is a point of  diminishing returns for everything.
FFT on scope needs lot of points if you want high frequency resolution AND high maximum frequency at the same time. If you're looking at the frequencies of up to, let's say 100kHz, 64kpoints is a lots of resolution: at 200 KSPS/s, with 64kpoints you get 32kbins, that gives you resolution of 3 Hz per bin.
Problem is with higher frequencies: with 16 MHz bandwidth (32MSps/s) same 64k points will get 476,8 Khz per bin. So if you want better RBW to look at 10.7 MHz filter, you need to bump u FFT points to more: 2 MPoints will give 1 Mbins, and you get 14.9 Hz per bin.. 1 MPoints will give 512 kbins, and you get 30 Hz per bin..

Point is, SA shines with MHz frequencies and up, because of constant RBW, because it uses downconversion.
At lower frequencies, FFT will get better results and will have instantaneous full real time bandwidth for whole measured frequency interval.
At audio frequencies, even 128k Points will achieve impressive resolution, more than enough to tune and verify any audio filter made with real life components.
1MPoint extends that to little bit higher frequencies, so it is quite useful to some 10s of MHz.

For serious work in MHZ and up region, you need SA, like Mechatrommer says. 8 bit scopes might have RBW good enough to look at the things, but they won't have dynamic range of a SA.
For low frequencies, you need high res scope or audio or some kind of specialized analyser...

[Fungus]

This is from 1000X-E/X-U manual. Just tiny sample.
Of course there is markers and table and so on.
But if you read 1000X series manual... its your problem.

Fair enough, posts removed.

[Mechatrommer]

And if you just paste plots from LTSpice, you don't need scope at all...
Stop trolling about what analysis you can do on PC in a topic about oscilloscopes.
Did you know Rigol DS1054Z can also fly?

thinking about it... you are right! the decision to put ethernet connectivity  (and errr, USB port too) in Siglent tools is just nonsensical. lets just use it as is, can i suggest built-in DMM? and Quake too?

[2N3055]

And if you just paste plots from LTSpice, you don't need scope at all...
Stop trolling about what analysis you can do on PC in a topic about oscilloscopes.
Did you know Rigol DS1054Z can also fly?

thinking about it... you are right! the decision to put ethernet port in Siglent tools is just nonsensical.

WTF is wrong with you? Stop trolling.
It is sad thing that you have nothing better to do, when I, for sure, know you have lot of knowledge and could actually make very intelligent and useful comments?

What do you figure, I'm Rigol or Siglent fanboy? Or Keysight, or Micsig, or Metrix, or Brymen, or TTi, or Picoscope, or Signal Hound, or Maynuo, or AOIP, or what...
I have all of those and all that equipment is both awesome at some things and suck at others ...

I had DS1074Z before, and loved it for what it was, well worth of money in 2016 when I bought it.  It paid of in few weeks, and was very useful little thing. I also never really felt it was slow like some other people were complaining. 4 years passed, and things have changed. There are better options today, and if you absolutely have to chose based on price alone, still solid choice. I would not say to somebody that buys it today that they made a mistake. Still worth the money.

But at this moment, with GDS1054B you get better scope, with SDS1104X-U you get better scope, with Micsig you get highly portable scope that is also very nice and also have some things and miss some other.  With SDS1104X-E much better scope that has 2 A/D converters and lot of other stuff that you need to upgrade to GW Instek GDS2000E series to get. In my opinion GDS2000E series is much better scope than SDS1000X-E series, but GDS2000E is starting to get into price range of SDS2000X+ which wins with bigger screen.... Never ending story... Your mileage may vary.

Sorry if that insults your precious and tender feelings you have for your DS1054Z connected to PC. But you'll have to sort that out with your therapist. Leave me out of your struggle with that...Please.

EDIT: REMOVED P.S.

[nctnico]

And if you just paste plots from LTSpice, you don't need scope at all...
Stop trolling about what analysis you can do on PC in a topic about oscilloscopes.
Did you know Rigol DS1054Z can also fly?

thinking about it... you are right! the decision to put ethernet connectivity  (and errr, USB port too) in Siglent tools is just nonsensical. lets just use it as is, can i suggest built-in DMM? and Quake too?

But the fact still remains that it is easier if a device can perform the functions by itself. That you don't need to bring / install software on a PC before you can do something. On a PC the update rate will always be slower due to data transfer and the integration of on-screen measurements the oscilloscope brings is gone. It is like driving one car with two steering wheels. Doable for sure but not ideal. If your goal is to use a PC for analysis then a Picoscope is a much better choice anyway

[Elasia]

now to be clear, i dont care if you like Siglent or Rigol. but when i smell competite Rigol fanboyism thing, i will tease them with my VisaDSO SW capture (long FFT display), there are other diy SWs as well out there in Linux etc, the point is, people made it for Rigol. what i wonder after this long, why nobody come up with diy SW for Siglent? i did see programming manual for the other older series, but since nobody proved it afaik, i conclude it as broken, and i dont own one to try. if someone can come up with even a simplest SW that merely can download all DSO data points to PC with source code example as our guideline, i will give Siglent a thumbs up. but until then, dont call other competites as obsolete DSO. "modern" is about "connectivity", IoT is modern because it can connect to something else, like 5G and smartphones, similar to if DSO can connect to PC for programming and analysis etc not available built-in scope. if something cannot connect, lets call it obsolete . i'm not into brand bashing here, but if its really worth it, prove it. here, another screen captures for your Siglent's pet hates, someone can call it lie, but can we make such as "lie" in Siglent scope? its just for an aesthetics show off, more like an "art" not really can help anything technically cheers friend.

I hacked my own into the sds2104x plus by putting samba on it to get files as well as ssh so i didnt have to bother over serial / scpi / ext usb only... its annoying linux scopes being released now still dont have such basic functions on the low end when it doesnt take much to run them.. i mean use it as simply as collecting triggered data most of the time in an automated manner via scripts and not invoking the webserver either but its a hell of a lot easier to do some stuff over the full shell so why not use bash to begin with... maybe that will change in another decade.. till then they are open just enough to go do whatever you want to customize

[2N3055]

now to be clear, i dont care if you like Siglent or Rigol. but when i smell competite Rigol fanboyism thing, i will tease them with my VisaDSO SW capture (long FFT display), there are other diy SWs as well out there in Linux etc, the point is, people made it for Rigol. what i wonder after this long, why nobody come up with diy SW for Siglent? i did see programming manual for the other older series, but since nobody proved it afaik, i conclude it as broken, and i dont own one to try. if someone can come up with even a simplest SW that merely can download all DSO data points to PC with source code example as our guideline, i will give Siglent a thumbs up. but until then, dont call other competites as obsolete DSO. "modern" is about "connectivity", IoT is modern because it can connect to something else, like 5G and smartphones, similar to if DSO can connect to PC for programming and analysis etc not available built-in scope. if something cannot connect, lets call it obsolete . i'm not into brand bashing here, but if its really worth it, prove it. here, another screen captures for your Siglent's pet hates, someone can call it lie, but can we make such as "lie" in Siglent scope? its just for an aesthetics show off, more like an "art" not really can help anything technically cheers friend.

I hacked my own into the sds2104x plus by putting samba on it to get files as well as ssh so i didnt have to bother over serial / scpi / ext usb only... its annoying linux scopes being released now still dont have such basic functions on the low end when it doesnt take much to run them.. i mean use it as simply as collecting triggered data most of the time in an automated manner via scripts and not invoking the webserver either but its a hell of a lot easier to do some stuff over the full shell so why not use bash to begin with... maybe that will change in another decade.. till then they are open just enough to go do whatever you want to customize

Not being able to map network drive is my favorite pet peeve on all of those embedded scopes. I'm looking at you Keysight !! Especially that with 3000T they went trough pains to print to network printer... Who uses that anymore... Sheesh... Please, make it connect to windows shares, please.

Did you document and share what you did (what steps are needed to install Samba on it) somewhere? For non Linux gurus..?

[tv84]

Did you document and share what you did (what steps are needed to install Samba on it) somewhere? For non Linux gurus..?

If Elasia creates the script I can pack it in an .ADS.

[Elasia]

now to be clear, i dont care if you like Siglent or Rigol. but when i smell competite Rigol fanboyism thing, i will tease them with my VisaDSO SW capture (long FFT display), there are other diy SWs as well out there in Linux etc, the point is, people made it for Rigol. what i wonder after this long, why nobody come up with diy SW for Siglent? i did see programming manual for the other older series, but since nobody proved it afaik, i conclude it as broken, and i dont own one to try. if someone can come up with even a simplest SW that merely can download all DSO data points to PC with source code example as our guideline, i will give Siglent a thumbs up. but until then, dont call other competites as obsolete DSO. "modern" is about "connectivity", IoT is modern because it can connect to something else, like 5G and smartphones, similar to if DSO can connect to PC for programming and analysis etc not available built-in scope. if something cannot connect, lets call it obsolete . i'm not into brand bashing here, but if its really worth it, prove it. here, another screen captures for your Siglent's pet hates, someone can call it lie, but can we make such as "lie" in Siglent scope? its just for an aesthetics show off, more like an "art" not really can help anything technically cheers friend.

I hacked my own into the sds2104x plus by putting samba on it to get files as well as ssh so i didnt have to bother over serial / scpi / ext usb only... its annoying linux scopes being released now still dont have such basic functions on the low end when it doesnt take much to run them.. i mean use it as simply as collecting triggered data most of the time in an automated manner via scripts and not invoking the webserver either but its a hell of a lot easier to do some stuff over the full shell so why not use bash to begin with... maybe that will change in another decade.. till then they are open just enough to go do whatever you want to customize

Not being able to map network drive is my favorite pet peeve on all of those embedded scopes. I'm looking at you Keysight !! Especially that with 3000T they went trough pains to print to network printer... Who uses that anymore... Sheesh... Please, make it connect to windows shares, please.

Did you document and share what you did (what steps are needed to install Samba on it) somewhere? For non Linux gurus..?

No, never got around to it. But if you look in its main and hacked threads you will find tv84's compiled firmware files that will easily get you into the shell and from there you can run as root

But the gist is if someone else wanted to do something you just need to find the correct compiler for the proc and put it on the fs then pull the sources and compile them and run as normal and back it all up

It's also possible to rewrite the ads firmware upload to deliver a full patch containing those contents with the help of tv84

[Elasia]

Did you document and share what you did (what steps are needed to install Samba on it) somewhere? For non Linux gurus..?

If Elasia creates the script I can pack it in an .ADS.

I swear you were standing behind me creeping...

[2N3055]

Did you document and share what you did (what steps are needed to install Samba on it) somewhere? For non Linux gurus..?

If Elasia creates the script I can pack it in an .ADS.

I swear you were standing behind me creeping...

 

[EEVblog]

Apparently one is on the way to me. Wioll be interesting to see how stripped down the design is compared to the existing model.

[EEVblog]

Comparison (from Siglent)

[bdunham7]

Apparently one is on the way to me. Wioll be interesting to see how stripped down the design is compared to the existing model.

Unless there's some quality issues somewhere as the result of the downgrade, I suspect most users won't even notice 99% of the time.  As in, if you had both, for most tasks you'd reach for the closest one and not bother taking 3 extra steps to get the 1104X-E.  But then again, they're only shaving $100 off a mid-design-cycle model that would be due for a price cut anyway at the first sign of serious competition. 

[rf-loop]

Comparison (from Siglent)

They have done bit sloppy work in compare tables. Also this kind of tables are not very useful because it do not expain any thing any deeper than just name, number and v or x.

Rigol FFT is totally wrong. Even when it may be still stated in some data sheets but - this kind of errors tell that they do not know competitors or comparable at all. In markets this kind of company need do they "homeworks" better for know others.
I do not know if this is absolute truth but I have seen notes that Rigol 1kZ have 64k FFT instead of 2k. So 64k and 128k not very big difference, just in same ballpark with 1:2. 1M and 2M they are  in different world.

Then V/div.  Of course if they tell Display scale 1mV/div and after then tell both, X-U and 1kZ have 1mV/div it is somehow ok.
Imho more important is what  real full resolution V/div. Good example is Keysight what may have 4mV/div lowest full resolution and after then 2 an 1mV/div are just digital zoom somewhere or even more just only display image vertical zoom.

Without any single this kind of detail these tables are nearly like nonsense.  Also need know truth instead of some obsolete data sheet values. I can still somewhere find fun numbers about Keysight BodePlot.

But Siglent X-U FFT is 128k (131072pts) and Rigol 1000Z 2k 64k (65536pts) afaik.
Only trump can live with lies.