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Siglent - 11/20 - New SDS1104X-U, 4 channel 100MHz, 1Gsa/s economy oscilloscope
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Fungus:

--- Quote from: 2N3055 on January 26, 2021, 10:15:36 am ---Twisty knobs are not bad

--- End quote ---

They're bad for menu navigation.


--- Quote from: 2N3055 on January 26, 2021, 10:15:36 am ---Glad to hear about statistics.. If you're communicating with them, remind them on AC RMS measurements.

--- End quote ---

You mean standard deviation? I'll mention it.



--- Quote from: 2N3055 on January 26, 2021, 10:15:36 am ---But you loose completely the whole idea of scope with decoding: correlation of decoded packet to an analog event on other channel. You cannot select that packet and switch to waveform mode to see what was happening then...

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It obviously can't store the analog history of the other channels going back in time. The serial data in the buffer might have arrives ages ago.

I don't see how you can say it's worse than the others though, it also has their "traditional" decode mode where it just decodes the current sample memory.

It also has very good serial triggering, two serial decoders on screen at once, and setting the parameters is sooooo much easier/faster than with a twisty knob.
2N3055:

--- Quote from: Fungus on January 26, 2021, 12:57:42 pm ---
--- Quote from: 2N3055 on January 26, 2021, 10:15:36 am ---Twisty knobs are not bad

--- End quote ---

They're bad for menu navigation.

--- End quote ---

Yeah, but knobs are gorgeous for actual scope work...


--- Quote from: 2N3055 on January 26, 2021, 10:15:36 am ---Glad to hear about statistics.. If you're communicating with them, remind them on AC RMS measurements.

--- End quote ---

--- Quote from: Fungus on January 26, 2021, 12:57:42 pm ---You mean standard deviation? I'll mention it.

--- End quote ---

Yep. Standard deviation (aka AC RMS in Keysight parlance). Thanks!


--- Quote from: 2N3055 on January 26, 2021, 10:15:36 am ---But you loose completely the whole idea of scope with decoding: correlation of decoded packet to an analog event on other channel. You cannot select that packet and switch to waveform mode to see what was happening then...

--- End quote ---

--- Quote from: Fungus on January 26, 2021, 12:57:42 pm ---It obviously can't store the analog history of the other channels going back in time. The serial data in the buffer might have arrives ages ago.

I don't see how you can say it's worse than the others though, it also has their "traditional" decode mode where it just decodes the current sample memory.

It also has very good serial triggering, two serial decoders on screen at once, and setting the parameters is sooooo much easier/faster than with a twisty knob.

--- End quote ---

That is the thing, proper table decode and segmented memory, does exactly that, it gives you 10s of thousands of packets and analog history in vicinity of packet. STO1000C is not worse than Rigol DS1000Z in that regard, but it is worse than other scopes that have segmented/history mode and proper decode table mode...

In general, I find STO1104C to be very useful instrument. But as I said, I get this feeling it still is not feature complete. It's saving grace is the fact that, what it is there, works quite well and is very good contender in inexpensive portable scope area.
But it's not quite complete and missing few things to be real replacement for desktop scopes that you can get for same amount of money, provided you don't need portable...

BTW, I suggest you open new topic "How MICSIG tablet scope compares to entry level desktop scopes" where you can elaborate in detail your experience.
As a former DS1000Z user, you probably have good amount of data on that. It would be interesting to read... I also had DS1000Z before and now have Micsig STO1104C, I would likely gladly contribute there... Maybe some users that have both Micsig and other entry level scopes from other manufacturers could also say few words..

Let's leave this topic go back to what it is: a place to discuss details of new SDS1104X-U series from Siglent..
drussell:

--- Quote from: 2N3055 on January 26, 2021, 02:16:04 pm ---Let's leave this topic go back to what it is: a place to discuss details of new SDS1104X-U series from Siglent..
--- End quote ---

Actually, I am finding this whole discussion enlightening and very helpful.

I'm currently in the market for a couple of entry-level scopes and am looking for some first hand knowledge of these various units, especially people who have used more than one for direct comparison.  I've been looking for a good youtube  comparison series or something but haven't really found much in the way of good resources yet.  I'd really love to see Dave do an updated entry-level scope showdown, for example.

Currently my personal DSO capabilities consist of the grand total of an old K7103 Velleman kit that I built in the early 90s, so a whole whopping 32 MS/sec, 4k per channel memory depth, 100 V peak input capability and a parallel port interface, so any of these recent models are going to be a huge improvement.   ;D

If this were a year ago, I would say for sure I would just grab a couple Rigol DS1054Zs and be done with it.  They're a mature, well known and understood quantity with a proven track record.  They've made a gazillion of them so even far-future servicing should be possible since partially dead "parts units" with salvageable bits will likely be available far into the future.

It looks like I can buy a couple of DS1054Zs for under $420 CAD each after tequipment's free shipping, "we'll pay your sales tax" promo and the EEVblog discount if they'll let me stack all those together.  That seems like a bargain as far as scope-for-the-money goes.  I would be hacking them to 100 Mhz and full options, of course.  One will be for me personally at home and the other for general purpose use at my own small business and I don't really foresee any medium-term requirements for anything significantly higher than what is currently done with the K7103 and newer decent PC software and the aging, worn out old Tek 40 MHz dual channel with the ailing, fading CRT, etc. 

I have also been considering the Siglent SDS1104X-E, since it does seem overall to be a more capable scope, dual ADCs, hackable to 200 MHz, better FFT, faster processor in general, runs Linux directly so potentially has the ability to add some utilities and customizations, etc. but they are quite a bit more money.  At $630 CAD each, that is pretty much exactly 1.5 times as much as the DS1054Z and I'm simply not sure they're really worth the extra money for my typical use cases.  I could buy three DS1054Zs for the price of two SDS1104X-Es.

I would probably never use the ability to add the digital inputs or signal gen options, wifi or anything like that.  I would rather just use a separate inexpensive logic analyzer, for example.  As for the fancier FFT, I'm already used to just capturing data using the K7103 and pulling it into the computer where I can do whatever I want to it despite the limitations of the FFT in the "normal" software, although I can see times where something closer to realtime could potentially be useful, I guess.  Things like having 256 shades on the intensity grading instead of 64 is better, but I don't see anything like that being a "killer feature" either.  The internal web server interface looks convenient but again, I don't see that becoming in any way critical for my typical workflows and use cases.  CAN decoding might be useful I suppose, but again a dedicated solution is easy enough and cheap if I need it.

The SDS1104X-U adds a new dimension to the mix, yet it seems like its only real advantage over the DS1054Z would be speedier UI and a few random bells and whistles for the most part, and I don't expect it to be as inexpensive as the Rigol.  (Tequipment does list it but no pricing is shown so I assume they don't even stock it yet to compare?)  I have personally never used a 1054Z or any of the Siglents so I have absolutely no first hand knowledge of either series in any way, but the Rigol front panel even looks like options and UI menus, etc. might be easier to work with in general with twice the number of screen buttons for a non-touchscreen scope, etc.

This leads me to suspect that the good ol' 1054Z is probably still the way to go, mostly really just for its ubiquity more than anything else, but I am looking to following any related discussions or especially, like I said, any kind of in-depth comparison or shootout or whatnot.  The one comparison video that I found to be helpful so far really didn't bode well for the SDS1104X-E.  For example, while it did still show waveforms above the -3 dB point, up to 150 MHz, the Rigol still showed usable waveforms up to 430 MHz.  While the amplitude obviously wouldn't be correct, the fact that they can even display something at all on a single channel way up at that far above the rated bandwidth is the kind of thing that makes me still think I'd like them...  :) 

Any pointers to suggested comparison resources are highly appreciated! 

If I'm convinced that spending the extra dough on something that really is "fancier," I'm always in the "buy once, cry once" camp when it comes to buying tools, but I also can't spend a fortune on scopes right now either.

Thank you all for your informative discussions.  Please carry on!   :popcorn:
Fungus:

--- Quote from: drussell on January 26, 2021, 05:08:55 pm ---(Tequipment does list it but no pricing is shown so I assume they don't even stock it yet to compare?)

--- End quote ---

Batronix doesn't have it either so I'm guessing it doesn't exist yet in the real world.


--- Quote from: drussell on January 26, 2021, 05:08:55 pm ---I have personally never used a 1054Z or any of the Siglents so I have absolutely no first hand knowledge of either series in any way, but the Rigol front panel even looks like options and UI menus, etc. might be easier to work with in general with twice the number of screen buttons for a non-touchscreen scope, etc.

--- End quote ---

Yep. Things like enabling measurements are much easier/faster on a Rigol thanks to the buttons down the left edge.

Rigol also has some features that the Siglent doesn't, eg, plot a rolling graph of measurements over time.


--- Quote from: drussell on January 26, 2021, 05:08:55 pm ---This leads me to suspect that the good ol' 1054Z is probably still the way to go

--- End quote ---

If you can buy from Tequipment then the GW-Instek GDS1054B is under $300 with the EEVBLOG discount:

https://www.tequipment.net/Instek/GDS-1054B/Digital-Oscilloscopes/?search=true

That's a sweet little 'scope and they've added a lot of new features lately via firmware updates, eg. Serial decoding.

Ask about current state of hackablilty here:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/possible-gw-instek-gds-1000b-hack/

drussell:

--- Quote from: Fungus on January 26, 2021, 06:18:03 pm ---Rigol also has some features that the Siglent doesn't, eg, plot a rolling graph of measurements over time.
--- End quote ---

What?  There's no "roll mode" or whatever they call it? 

Hmm, that's important if it doesn't exist on some of these potential choices.  I use the "transient recorder" feature on the K7103 all the time!  I guess I need to read through the manuals of a couple of these possible models to try to spot things like that.   :-\


--- Quote ---If you can buy from Tequipment then the GW-Instek GDS1054B is under $300 with the EEVBLOG discount:
--- End quote ---

I haven't really eliminated any possible brands at this point, I'm open to all suggestions but I don't want to totally hijack this thread either, perhaps I should start another comparison thread?  It just always seems like "what is the best scope" is a done to death thread topic. 

That being said, the little bits and pieces I have heard about general quality on GW-Instek gear did not exactly inspire confidence and give me that warm fuzzy feeling and the price in CAD would only be $20 less than than the Rigol since there is no "pay your sales tax" promo on them like on the DS1054Z.  I would rather get the ubiquitous Rigol if all other things are equal, even simply due to track record and number sold alone, so any contender needs to be way better bang for the buck by somehow either being far less expensive or way more capable in some ways that would make it more useful to me, hence my interest in the SDS1104X-U vs DS1054Z specifically, as I think I already basically understand where the SDS1104X-E  vs DS1054Z divide ends up.
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