Rigol MSO4000 and Rigol MSO's in general

[Wuerstchenhund]

Guys, I just wanted to mention I'm enjoying the discussion.  Thanks, Wuerstchenhund, for sharing all the insights into the LeCroys.   

You're welcome, I'm glad you enjoy it.

I'm by no means a specialist regarding these scopes, I actually only really discovered LeCroy a bit over a year ago when I bought an old WaveRunner LT224 on ebay. Of course I knew the name before, but in the past for me they were just a niche scope manufacturer with a french sounding name which makes scurile devices that many engineers say are cryptic to use. Of course I always wanted to have one out of curiosity but I never really considered their scopes when looking for "every day" scopes as they were simply unknown to me.

But then last year I sold my trusty old HP 54510A (and for the record: I *loved* the single knob interface!), and my other scope (HP 54542A) had a faulty PSU, so when I saw this little white LeCroy scope with its LCD monitor on ebay I couldn't resist and bought it.

I always felt that most digital scopes were a bit lacking in terms of what to do with the data they collected. For example, FFT on most scopes was and still is pretty primitive (see also the 700 pts limit on the Rigol DS4000, just to stay somewhat on-topic), as were the maths capabilities. At work we got more and more advanced midrange and highend scopes from Tek and Agilent over the years, often with their "advanced" math and analysis software offerings. Don't get me wrong, these were great scopes, but I always felt they were lacking in the signal analysis department. When I then got the old WaveRunner scope I bought I immediately felt at home with this thing. Lucky for me it came with almost all of the software options, and although the low sample rate (200MSa/s) and the small memory (150kpts) did limit it's usefulness, the features and capabilities that were available on this old scope were unbelievable. In this scope I found what I was missing in every single other scope before. That's how I became so hooked up to LeCroy.

The old WR LT224 is now gone (a colleague who borrowed it killed it with his ignorance, brr!), so I bought a WaveRunner2 LT254M, a WaveRunner 64Xi and (for work) a WavePro 7300A. Chances are slim that I'll ever buy anything else unless I need a low end scope (the LeCroy offerings in the low end are very poor unfortunately) or I need a MSO (Agilent is makes the better MSOs).

If you're interested, I did a review (no video, just text and pictures) of my WaveRunner LT224 last year, and one of my WaveRunner2 LT264M more recently, although both only cover the basics.

[Wuerstchenhund]

In our shop power consumption is a very critical factor. 

Well, it seems the WR6100A has now sold for $3384. But the seller has listed a new scope (WaveRunner 64Xi), again with most of the options including PMA2:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/231372226193?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&fromMakeTrack=true

I have the same (without the options, though). It's the successor of the WaveRunner 6000A Series and a really great scope. 10GSa/s (in single and dual channel mode, 5GSa/s in triple and quad channel mode), 25Mpts memory, up to 1,250,000 wfms/s trigger rate. The PC part uses Pentium-M processors (mobile CPUs which are much more energy efficient than the Pentium4 in the WR6kA and WP7kA). The screen is larger as well (10.2" vs 8.4" on the WR6kA), and it takes less space on the desk.

Power consumption is listed with 340W max (I guess this is for the 2Ghz variant) and 290W max for the 62Xi (2Ch 600MHz), so I guess the 64Xi is probably somewhere between these two (probably closer to the 62Xi figure). Don't forget that the max power rating also includes the optional MS-250 logic adapter which turns the WaveRunner Xi into a MSO (WaveRunner MXi), so I'd say the real-life consumption should be closer to 250W.

[TunerSandwich]

I bid on the 6100A, but it went over my cap.  I didn't want to pay more than $3k for it.  I already have the 64Xi on watch list.  I would have actually preferred the 6100A, but the Xi also has advanced FFT and "spectrum analysis".  That coupled with the line harmonics measurement on PMA is def an interesting and welcome tool-set.

NOT a fan of the single set of vertical controls, or the reduced 8 bit scale....but 2mv/dev is good enough for what we need to do and I can always fall back to the DS2102A if I need that extremely low noise front end (very useful in debugging something that fails masks on the Xi). 

Strongly considering it.....it's a very nice scope, for our needs. 

[Wuerstchenhund]

I bid on the 6100A, but it went over my cap.  I didn't want to pay more than $3k for it. 

For $3k you'll probably only get a VxWorks-based scope (WR LT, WR2 LT, WP900) with PMA1. You'd really need *a lot* of luck to snap one of the X-Stream Windows scopes with PMA2 for that money.

I already have the 64Xi on watch list.  I would have actually preferred the 6100A, but the Xi also has advanced FFT and "spectrum analysis".  That coupled with the line harmonics measurement on PMA is def an interesting and welcome tool-set.

NOT a fan of the single set of vertical controls, or the reduced 8 bit scale....but 2mv/dev is good enough for what we need to do and I can always fall back to the DS2102A if I need that extremely low noise front end (very useful in debugging something that fails masks on the Xi). 

Strongly considering it.....it's a very nice scope, for our needs.

The WR6kA Series are great scopes but the Xi is so much better in any way. Larger screen, much better triggering (even when the WR6kA is already very good at that), comes with WaveStream (which the WR6kA and WP7kA don't have), up to 1.25M waverforms per second (compared to the WR6kA's 125k wfms/s), more compact size, faster processing, more responsive UI, more energy efficient, and more options. The MXi variant does come with the LeCroy Bus (L-Bus) interface for the logic adapter (i.e. MS-250) which makes it a debugging powerhouse, especially with all the options. I guess the scope as offered had an original price tag north of $35k.

I do have my doubts that the scope will sell for $3k only, though.

[Mark_O]

The MXi variant does come with the LeCroy Bus (L-Bus) interface for the logic adapter (i.e. MS-250) which makes it a debugging powerhouse, especially with all the options. I guess the scope as offered had an original price tag north of $35k.

I do have my doubts that the scope will sell for $3k only, though.

Yeah, no kidding.  The MS-250 adapter alone typically goes for ~$3k. 

I'd guess the 64MXi will break $5k pretty easily.

[TunerSandwich]

The MXi variant does come with the LeCroy Bus (L-Bus) interface for the logic adapter (i.e. MS-250) which makes it a debugging powerhouse, especially with all the options. I guess the scope as offered had an original price tag north of $35k.

I do have my doubts that the scope will sell for $3k only, though.

Yeah, no kidding.  The MS-250 adapter alone typically goes for ~$3k. 

I'd guess the 64MXi will break $5k pretty easily.

have seen the ms250 + 64MXi + active differential probes + OG boxes manuals software etc....sell for under $4500 

the LeCroy used marketplace is scary, to say the least....at least Tek and Agilent markets have some pricing stability.....

Standalone ms250 are going for under $900 and sometimes under $500 on historical records.....

$3k is obviously not going to happen, but $7-$9k seems way high.....$5k-$6k seems more stable and logical....

It's a shame that we have to spend so much time speculating on and discussing test equipment specifications.....it only takes away form "real engineering efforts"....

I feel if the industry spent less time worry about faster bigger better more more more, we could use much more logical, established methodology to solve engineering problems in more efficient ways.

It seems it's all a numbers game these days.  Especially in these times where you need a scope to compute overly engineered mathematics problems.  Frustrating to spend more time debugging and discussing the gear used to do it, than actually paying homage to the great thinkers that came before us. 

There is something quite magical and rewarding about NOT having to use a half million dollar test rig to do something relatively simple.   

*STROKES GREYING BEARD AND MUTTERS TO SELF*

[TunerSandwich]

   http://www.ebay.com/itm/WaveRunner-600MHz-4-Channel-with-XMATH-JTA2-XDEV-4-probes-MS-250-add-on-/161419552759?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item25955ae7f7&nma=true&si=G7BICuy3RaHcsZ1xk1Nw819FvL8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[Mark_O]

have seen the ms250 + 64MXi + active differential probes + OG boxes manuals software etc....sell for under $4500 

Standalone ms250 are going for under $900 and sometimes under $500 on historical records.....

Thanks, TS.  I appreciate your sharing your observations.  While those are still safely out of my price range , it's always good to know.   

[TunerSandwich]

have seen the ms250 + 64MXi + active differential probes + OG boxes manuals software etc....sell for under $4500 

Standalone ms250 are going for under $900 and sometimes under $500 on historical records.....

Thanks, TS.  I appreciate your sharing your observations.  While those are still safely out of my price range , it's always good to know.   

I am, by no means, any expert on oscilloscope economics...but it seems the LeCroy used pricing is all over the place....hard to find a "real" price.  I suppose the value is whatever someone is willing to pay (as usual).  Seems you can bank a bit more on used Agilent and Tek prices though.  Even Keysight direct used sales has some reasonable prices on "fancy" scopes.  I suspect where they rape you is in options (as usual). 

Tough call to make.  That 6100A was a fantastic bargain though.  Someone made out like a bandit ....

[Wuerstchenhund]

have seen the ms250 + 64MXi + active differential probes + OG boxes manuals software etc....sell for under $4500

[...]

  http://www.ebay.com/itm/WaveRunner-600MHz-4-Channel-with-XMATH-JTA2-XDEV-4-probes-MS-250-add-on-/161419552759?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item25955ae7f7&nma=true&si=G7BICuy3RaHcsZ1xk1Nw819FvL8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Indeed, with some luck there sometimes are bargains to be found. But don't forget that the scope in that link only came with XMATH, XDEV and JTA2 and serial decode for I2C, SPI and UART only. All the interesting stuff is missing, and this does affect the price.

the LeCroy used marketplace is scary, to say the least....at least Tek and Agilent markets have some pricing stability.....

I don't think that's the case. In my experience the 2nd hand prices for LeCroy kit are as stable as for Agilent and Tek. Ebay however isn't a good reflection of the overall market for used gear, as it's predominantly hobbyists and small businesses that don't need the services T&M brokers offer which buy there. And the simple fact that most people think "Tek" and "Agilent" only when looking for oscilloscopes means that quite often the sales price of LeCroy kit auctioned on ebay is much lower than it would be for comparable Tek or Agilent kit.

$3k is obviously not going to happen, but $7-$9k seems way high.....$5k-$6k seems more stable and logical....

Based on where it is now my guess would be that $5k to $6k is about right, maybe even lower.

It's a shame that we have to spend so much time speculating on and discussing test equipment specifications.....it only takes away form "real engineering efforts"....

Well, these are complex tools, and like with other complex tools looking at the details is important to make sure that the tool is right for the job at hand. This aside, I'm sure whoever designed these scopes does consider his work to be "real engineering". And of course I don't know what exactly you do design but I wouldn't be surprised at all if amongst your customers there are other engineers discussing the properties of your products and the alternative from competitors.

I feel if the industry spent less time worry about faster bigger better more more more, we could use much more logical, established methodology to solve engineering problems in more efficient ways.

Well, for many engineers the "established" way using oscilloscopes is limited to looking at waveforms and maybe taking some readouts with cursors, or finding glitches with a scope in persistence mode and waiting to *see* the glitch on the screen. Methodology which has been transferred from analog scopes (and which still work on DSOs) but which isn't necessarily the best way of doing things.

A modern advanced scope can do so many things which can make life so much easier but which are simply ignored by many engineers because they are stuck in methodology established decades ago.

It seems it's all a numbers game these days.  Especially in these times where you need a scope to compute overly engineered mathematics problems.  Frustrating to spend more time debugging and discussing the gear used to do it, than actually paying homage to the great thinkers that came before us. 

Well, the thing is that electronics *is* maths. The waveform displayed on a scope is not just some changes in voltage levels, it's a math function. And one you treat is as that you can easily extract any parameter you need from it, which you can't do by merely looking at stuff. I guess that's also the reason why you're interested in a scope with power analysis package.

There is something quite magical and rewarding about NOT having to use a half million dollar test rig to do something relatively simple.   

*STROKES GREYING BEARD AND MUTTERS TO SELF*

True, but without the advanced capabilities in modern scopes a lot of things wouldn't even be possible.

[TunerSandwich]

If we look at traditional equipment brokers, we can find more stability, but it's at typically delusional values.  I do understand they have overhead to accommodate, and offer some levels of warranty (usually).  However if we look at the more traditional, independent marketplaces, the range in pricing is a bit astounding.  Like I had said in the past, if I was opening up XYZ corps checkbook, there would be no hesitation to use a broker or buy new. 

If that item stays under $6k it would be fair (IMO).  If it climbs past $7k I think it's possibly overvalued.  Granted it is a very nice tool-set.

The problems I am talking about, in regards to complexity...is mostly complexity for complexities sake.  The products I design are almost always an attempt to employ complexity, ONLY when it leads to a necessary reduction of complexity in the end users hands.  Or when it is necessary to do something very very specific.  I do however, see a lot of the complexity for complexity sake approaches.

What I mean by "real engineering", is that I see a general trend towards using non discreet packages and "do it all" SoC.  I know the ideals behind this are to simplify and diversify, but that kills all the cleverness involved (IMO).  It delegates us to being nothing more than OTS component selectors and assemblers. 

For example with a modern PoL controller, I have a vast array of functions that I can control and quantify, that do nothing more than mirror traditional passive component applications.

Yes the size is spared, but at the expense of over complexity, and un-necessary or redundant functions.  Which obviously leads to some power and resource wastage, and dramatically increased the need for overly complex analysis chains.

Of course electronics is math....but when it exceeds the math one can do in their lifetime, to solve what was traditionally solved in a simple way, would you agree there might be a problem? 

It seems to be the same scenario with code structures.....so much modern code is object based and bloated/redundant....it instils a bit of laziness and "bucks" the more traditional systems of efficiency, which spurred so much innovation

I'm not sure any of this stuff makes life easier, as you spend as much time debating and analyzing and maintaining the systems that were supposed to make that reality.  I know the majority of my engineering time is spent analyzing the systems and pace of development....than actually worrying about innovation.  Such is the hyper-consumerist marketplace.  The time is not spent to make things mature.  the time is spent on designing systems to take less time to design systems 

Strange that I would pick a test equipment forum to drop such bombshells ? 

[TunerSandwich]

... And of course I don't know what exactly you do design but I wouldn't be surprised at all if amongst your customers there are other engineers discussing the properties of your products and the alternative from competitors.

Now that scenario is TRULY scary    I tend to stay as far away from those people as possible....leave them for the marketing machine