Siglent SDG1032 as bad as rigol DG812?

[rf-loop]

But naturally my predictable rest of lifetime is not enough for test every possible setup combinations even once per setup. 

If you would choose  a 100mHz square, and a 99% duty, you are more likely to hit that high level right at the beginning of the rest of your life.

On that picture it looks like you hit that low level... 

That one magpie's nest type of signal connection that you recently brought up when you criticized the generator's frequency response. I will say one more and one last time. Most of the problems you'll encounter with oscilloscopes or generators are between them and the chair you sit. Next time I might say it less nicely.

Here is 100mHz and 99% Duty. And again hard PowOFF.
And yes, signal is 20Vpp and other is generator 10V DC out (also for trig)

If you set up values, that are far away from those that showed the issue, and want to compare, you also have a problem between the chair and the screen.

YOU ask'd this (if you remember)! And you get it.
And it still didn't show the problem you so desperately hoped for.

Of course it did not mean those values that i told you. 

I talked about spikes that went up to ~5V but you already set a level of 10V! 
Are you trying to hide the issue, or are you  trying to make me look bad?

You make a good point here. When the generator is set to maximum output level, the output value is very unlikely to overshoot in the same way you and mortymore have shown. However, with a lower output level, the generator could overshoot when a mains interruption occurs. IOW: rf-loop should test with the same levels you and Mortymore have used. His screendump in the other thread does already show some negative undershoot.

Looks like you did not read what I have told previously.  Several tests with also using several different setups, example voltages and so on.
With few exceptions, this forum is starting to look more and more like some kind of clown club.

Take a look example at when @eTobey is wondering about the frequency response (in other thread) and then there is a kind of kindergarten-level connection of the investigated signal...where actually everything is wrong and of course there is a bug or issue in the devices...of course. Here, even vocational school kids don't make magpie nests like that.Hee

Here below some few samples about tests. And these are one shots. Not selected shots like "try until wanted result". Maybe some others can do that on purpose.

SDG1000X
  FW:1.01.01.33R1
  HW: 02-02-00-24-00
  Max Out V: 0-10 Vpk, 20Vpk-pk (HiZ Load and up to 10MHz. Over 10MHz half level)
  Source impedance 50 ohm.

2pcs Suhner RG223/U between SDG and oscilloscope.
SDS2504X HD. Inputs 1 Mohm


10 kHz, 1 Voffset, 300 mVpp


1 kHz, 0 V -  +5 Vpk


10 kHz, 0 V -  +5 Vpk


a. 1 MHz,  17.5 Vpp


b. 1 MHz,  17.5 Vpp


1 kHz, 17.5 Vpp


10 kHz, 17.5 Vpp


1 kHz, 10 Vpp


10 kHz, 10 Vpp


1 kHz, 5 Vpp


10 kHz, 5 Vpp


1 kHz, 2.5 Vpp


10 kHz, 2.5 Vpp


1 kHz, 1 Vpp


10 kHz, 1 Vpp


1 kHz, 500 mVpp


10 kHz, 500 mVpp

Of course, the some dog's chin can now wonder why I didn't test the 6 V level, or 3.33V level, is there something I'm hiding. If it continues to happen, I say: Grow up.
I won't publish 300 more pictures because nothing else essential is shown in them.
EOC

[nctnico]

Thanks for elaborating further on your testing. The conclusion has to be that there have to be differences between units then. Maybe Siglent decided to remove some capacitors or a capacitor with a different behaviour has been placed (*). 2 forum members have showed an effect your unit doesn't have.

* Do not assume that ordering the same part number gets you an identical capacitor every time! This sounds silly but I have experienced this myself.

[eTobey]

Take a look example at when @eTobey is wondering about the frequency response (in other thread) and then there is a kind of kindergarten-level connection of the investigated signal...where actually everything is wrong and of course there is a bug or issue in the devices...of course. Here, even vocational school kids don't make magpie nests like that.Hee

Of course, the some dog's chin can now wonder why I didn't test the 6 V level, or 3.33V level, is there something I'm hiding. If it continues to happen, I say: Grow up.
I won't publish 300 more pictures because nothing else essential is shown in them.

Yet those "experts with a lot of experience" failed to figure this out and help this noob. Instead they trashed him again (hope that is the right translation). Yes, indeed it looks like a clown club!

300 more pictures? You could have just choosen one (the right one) of them to satisfy me, or proven the fact, but you failed.

[eTobey]

Thanks for elaborating further on your testing. The conclusion has to be that there have to be differences between units then. Maybe Siglent decided to remove some capacitors or a capacitor with a different behaviour has been placed (*). 2 forum members have showed an effect your unit doesn't have.

* Do not assume that ordering the same part number gets you an identical capacitor every time! This sounds silly but I have experienced this myself.

I just noticed, that the "fun" happens in around 10ms, where as rf-loop has some action going on for 400ms!
It seems that his device has some much bigger caps somewhere. Or some relais are different.

[csuhi17]

I was a little confused, the lack of language skills is a disadvantage for me.

What is the end result, what causes this?

From previous conversations, I came to the conclusion that if my signal generator and oscilloscope do not have the same earth.
My micsig is operating on its own battery.
and
Not the method used by most of the other.
Siggen -> aligatorclip -> scopeProbe10x -> scope.
Then will not be an over -shot?

I tried it
Rigol dg912pro
Chinese BNC-BNC wire that was added to the FY6800, the entire connectors do not reach 50cm.
The internal wire has a DC resistance of 50mohm and the exterior is 28mohm.
Micsig to1104 1MOHM input impedance

If I understand it, the over -shot occurs when the AC230V disappears, breaks. when the outout is  active.

I simply pulled the Rigol USB-C cable during operation.


If this is a real event and can occur with any brand -independent signal generator, why is it a problem to discuss?
I think it is worthwhile to test their own, lest you accidentally catch a bad series and ruin their own project.

I am lucky enough to have a USB-C, so I don't have to buy a uninterrupted PSU.
I think.

[tautech]

Take a look example at when @eTobey is wondering about the frequency response (in other thread) and then there is a kind of kindergarten-level connection of the investigated signal...where actually everything is wrong and of course there is a bug or issue in the devices...of course. Here, even vocational school kids don't make magpie nests like that.Hee

Of course, the some dog's chin can now wonder why I didn't test the 6 V level, or 3.33V level, is there something I'm hiding. If it continues to happen, I say: Grow up.
I won't publish 300 more pictures because nothing else essential is shown in them.

Yet those "experts with a lot of experience" failed to figure this out and help this noob. Instead they trashed him again (hope that is the right translation). Yes, indeed it looks like a clown club!

300 more pictures? You could have just choosen one (the right one) of them to satisfy me, or proven the fact, but you failed.

You would do well to Default your scope and set up just as rf-loop has shown and test again....or be the unchallenged captain of your own clown club.

rf-loop has extensively tested these units since release in 2016 based on scope experience of 50+yrs.
Show some correct and detailed screenshots or zip it.

[eTobey]

Take a look example at when @eTobey is wondering about the frequency response (in other thread) and then there is a kind of kindergarten-level connection of the investigated signal...where actually everything is wrong and of course there is a bug or issue in the devices...of course. Here, even vocational school kids don't make magpie nests like that.Hee

Of course, the some dog's chin can now wonder why I didn't test the 6 V level, or 3.33V level, is there something I'm hiding. If it continues to happen, I say: Grow up.
I won't publish 300 more pictures because nothing else essential is shown in them.

Yet those "experts with a lot of experience" failed to figure this out and help this noob. Instead they trashed him again (hope that is the right translation). Yes, indeed it looks like a clown club!

300 more pictures? You could have just choosen one (the right one) of them to satisfy me, or proven the fact, but you failed.

You would do well to Default your scope and set up just as rf-loop has shown and test again....or be the unchallenged captain of your own clown club.

rf-loop has extensively tested these units since release in 2016 based on scope experience of 50+yrs.
Show some correct and detailed screenshots or zip it.

If you can explain, how a 2-3V rise for about 100-150us can come from a tiny bit of "magpie nest", i will do this, otherwise i will just set sail...

[2N3055]

I was a little confused, the lack of language skills is a disadvantage for me.

What is the end result, what causes this?

From previous conversations, I came to the conclusion that if my signal generator and oscilloscope do not have the same earth.
My micsig is operating on its own battery.
and
Not the method used by most of the other.
Siggen -> aligatorclip -> scopeProbe10x -> scope.
Then will not be an over -shot?

I tried it
Rigol dg912pro
Chinese BNC-BNC wire that was added to the FY6800, the entire connectors do not reach 50cm.
The internal wire has a DC resistance of 50mohm and the exterior is 28mohm.
Micsig to1104 1MOHM input impedance

If I understand it, the over -shot occurs when the AC230V disappears, breaks. when the outout is  active.

I simply pulled the Rigol USB-C cable during operation.


If this is a real event and can occur with any brand -independent signal generator, why is it a problem to discuss?
I think it is worthwhile to test their own, lest you accidentally catch a bad series and ruin their own project.

I am lucky enough to have a USB-C, so I don't have to buy a uninterrupted PSU.
I think.

That is exactly my point. If you connect instruments in in any number of (pathological)way, you can get any kind of weird artefacts when doing weird stuff.

You should not simply yank cables, or power to any piece of equipment during active testing.
Even if your electricity supply is cut (power out) there is no saying in which order will any of your pieces of equipment power down. There can be reverse currents flowing  too..

[nctnico]

Thanks for elaborating further on your testing. The conclusion has to be that there have to be differences between units then. Maybe Siglent decided to remove some capacitors or a capacitor with a different behaviour has been placed (*). 2 forum members have showed an effect your unit doesn't have.

* Do not assume that ordering the same part number gets you an identical capacitor every time! This sounds silly but I have experienced this myself.

I just noticed, that the "fun" happens in around 10ms, where as rf-loop has some action going on for 400ms!
It seems that his device has some much bigger caps somewhere. Or some relais are different.

True. That is something I observed as well in your and Mortymore's screendumps.

[nctnico]

I was a little confused, the lack of language skills is a disadvantage for me.

What is the end result, what causes this?

From previous conversations, I came to the conclusion that if my signal generator and oscilloscope do not have the same earth.

They have the same earth. Or better put, the same reference as the grounds are connected by the 0V of the outputs (typically the outer shell of the BNC connector).

Again, good test equipment shouldn't have an overshoot on outputs when the mains power is cut. Power outages do happen.

[joeqsmith]

Thanks for elaborating further on your testing. The conclusion has to be that there have to be differences between units then. Maybe Siglent decided to remove some capacitors or a capacitor with a different behaviour has been placed (*). 2 forum members have showed an effect your unit doesn't have.

* Do not assume that ordering the same part number gets you an identical capacitor every time! This sounds silly but I have experienced this myself.

It wouldn't surprise me. 

Found some issues that dissapointed me quite a bit. Never thought i would be that dissapointed, since the step from the Rigol DHO814 to the Siglent SDS814X HD was a good one.
...

- Turning the knob faster, has the opposite effect of slowing down the change in the number, to almost non at all.
   - Turning it in the right speed takes still 13 seconds to get from 0 to 100.
...

The one I looked at would also decrement when it should increment and vice versa.  This unit was purchased a couple of years ago.  If yours is brand new, it could be different hardware.   If you like, I can attempt to replicate what you are seeing.  I could then provide a build date or something.  If there was a hardware change that caused the unstable output, maybe we could narrow it down.  Then again, Siglent should be able to answer this.   

[rf-loop]

Thanks for elaborating further on your testing. The conclusion has to be that there have to be differences between units then. Maybe Siglent decided to remove some capacitors or a capacitor with a different behaviour has been placed (*). 2 forum members have showed an effect your unit doesn't have.

* Do not assume that ordering the same part number gets you an identical capacitor every time! This sounds silly but I have experienced this myself.

I just noticed, that the "fun" happens in around 10ms, where as rf-loop has some action going on for 400ms!
It seems that his device has some much bigger caps somewhere. Or some relais are different.

Lets do some fact check.  Add some clarification to this fairy tale. For example, let's start with you telling where and what.

When you refer to me, please state what I have said or shown. Don't make up your own fairy tales or interpretations of them!

[rf-loop]

* Do not assume that ordering the same part number gets you an identical capacitor every time! This sounds silly but I have experienced this myself.

This is completely self-evident everyday life for anyone who has worked, for example, in the manufacturing industry and also designed various devices there. In very many cases, the so-called worst case combinations must be taken, more or less, into account and planned in such a way that even in those situations the devices work within the specifications.
Of course, this problem is also limited, for example, by inspecting the components before they are used, especially if something a little more critical (and valuable) is being done. On the other hand, it is also normal that during production testing some of the finished products just go to scrap or recycling or, if it is an expensive device, to a repair / rework round.

[joeqsmith]

...In very many cases, the so-called worst case combinations must be taken, more or less, into account and planned in such a way that even in those situations the devices work within the specifications.  ...

Reminds me of when Robert Pease took on Taguchi.   

https://www.electronicdesign.com/archive/article/21754886/whats-all-this-taguchi-stuff-anyhow

[eTobey]

Lets do some fact check...

Fact is, you havent delivered a comparable test...

[eTobey]

Just found out, that the squarewave has a glitch (seemingly) when starting with the enable button.
The first low pulse is not as the duty is set up. The length of the low pulse is longer with different deviations.

200mHz
0-3.3V
99% duty
50 Ohm
Channel 1

[tautech]

Just found out, that the squarewave has a glitch (seemingly) when starting with the enable button.
The first low pulse is not as the duty is set up. The length of the low pulse is longer with different deviations.

200mHz
0-3.3V
99% duty
50 Ohm
Channel 1

 
Properly captured screenshots or nothing. 

Hint, the trigger is your best friend if you take the time to learn its power.

[eTobey]

Properly captured screenshots or nothing. 

Hint, the trigger is your best friend if you take the time to learn its power.

I was in roll mode, but there is an issue, i would like to call the b** word for. Couldnt zoom out. 

But yes the trigger is actually a good idea, to overlay then with the other captures in persistant mode, combined with a measurement, that shows the exact deviations. I couldnt care less, but i cant refuse what is excpect from others ;-).

I hope no other issues are coming at me then... Issues when investigating issues...   

[rf-loop]

...In very many cases, the so-called worst case combinations must be taken, more or less, into account and planned in such a way that even in those situations the devices work within the specifications.  ...

Reminds me of when Robert Pease took on Taguchi.   

https://www.electronicdesign.com/archive/article/21754886/whats-all-this-taguchi-stuff-anyhow

This was a great find. Absolutely stunning and so true...

[eTobey]

This was a great find. Absolutely stunning and so true...

Dont you want to post a screen shot of a comparable test?

Properly captured screenshots or nothing. 

Is this properly enough?

[rf-loop]

This was a great find. Absolutely stunning and so true...

Dont you want to post a screen shot of a comparable test?

If I have extra time, I'd rather play with my own grandchildrens than yours. If you think it's discriminatory, file a discrimination complaint.  :/

[TurboTom]

Just found out, that the squarewave has a glitch (seemingly) when starting with the enable button.
The first low pulse is not as the duty is set up. The length of the low pulse is longer with different deviations.

200mHz
0-3.3V
99% duty
50 Ohm
Channel 1

Relay bounce? That would be something to expect, present on all AWGs that I'm aware of that provide complete galvanic isolation of the outputs in disabled condition.

[eTobey]

Just found out, that the squarewave has a glitch (seemingly) when starting with the enable button.
The first low pulse is not as the duty is set up. The length of the low pulse is longer with different deviations.

200mHz
0-3.3V
99% duty
50 Ohm
Channel 1

Relay bounce? That would be something to expect, present on all AWGs that I'm aware of that provide complete galvanic isolation of the outputs in disabled condition.

Show me a relay, that has a bounce after 5 seconds ;-)

[Fgrir]

Just found out, that the squarewave has a glitch (seemingly) when starting with the enable button.
The first low pulse is not as the duty is set up. The length of the low pulse is longer with different deviations.

200mHz
0-3.3V
99% duty
50 Ohm
Channel 1

I see a similar effect on an SDG2042X - seems like the first cycle is running with a random falling edge.

[Martin72]