Author Topic: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks  (Read 11305 times)

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Offline Zbig

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Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« on: July 07, 2013, 06:57:54 pm »
I'm not sure it's worth its own thread but I thought I should warn Siglent scopes users about my recent finding. With today's high capacity flash drives, you'd often want to reformat one from the default FAT32 to NTFS or exFAT in order to be able to write files larger than 4GB if nothing else. If you do so, don't use it in your Siglent scope anymore as you'll lose your data as soon as you write anything on it with the scope. It will ruin your filesystem as soon as you write your first screenshot/wave/whatever and then happily report successful write. Also, with my FAT32 formatted high capacity stick, it reported < 4GB free space when there actually was much more and while it seemed fine otherwise, I'm not sure that FAT32 is implemented there properly, either. It didn't seem to damage the filesystem in that case but I'm not sure what would happen if it tried to write past the 4GB boundary, for example.

To sum this up, I think it's safest to use some old, low capacity, FAT formatted USB stick with your Siglent scope, ideally dedicated for this use alone.

Regards,
Zbig
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2013, 08:29:19 pm »
FAT32 and max 4G
---------------


SDS1000L service manual:

Quote
7. U disk can’t be recognized:
(1) Check if the U disk can work normally.
(2) Check if the USB Device interface can work normally.
(2) Make sure that the U disk being used is of flash type, the instrument
does not support U disk of hardware type.
(3) Make sure that the capacity of the U disk is not too large. It is suggested
that the capacity of the U disk matches to the oscilloscope is no larger
than 4 G
.

Edit: (3) obsolete information


« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 05:06:21 am by rf-loop »
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Offline Siglent

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2013, 03:17:36 am »
I'm not sure it's worth its own thread but I thought I should warn Siglent scopes users about my recent finding. With today's high capacity flash drives, you'd often want to reformat one from the default FAT32 to NTFS or exFAT in order to be able to write files larger than 4GB if nothing else. If you do so, don't use it in your Siglent scope anymore as you'll lose your data as soon as you write anything on it with the scope. It will ruin your filesystem as soon as you write your first screenshot/wave/whatever and then happily report successful write. Also, with my FAT32 formatted high capacity stick, it reported < 4GB free space when there actually was much more and while it seemed fine otherwise, I'm not sure that FAT32 is implemented there properly, either. It didn't seem to damage the filesystem in that case but I'm not sure what would happen if it tried to write past the 4GB boundary, for example.

To sum this up, I think it's safest to use some old, low capacity, FAT formatted USB stick with your Siglent scope, ideally dedicated for this use alone.

Regards,
Zbig

Thank for your attention, these questions that your response have explanation in the SDS1000 Service Manual,
http://siglent.com/en/server/download.aspx?nodecode=119004002007
"SDS1000CML Service Manual"
7.   U disk can't be recognized:
(1) Check if the U disk can work normally.
(2) Check if the USB Device interface can work normally.
(3) Make sure that the U disk being used is of flash type, the instrument does not support U disk of hardware type.
(4) Make sure the format of the U disk is FAT32.
(5) Restart the instrument and then insert the U disk to check it.
(6) If it is still in abnormal use, please contact SIGLENT.

If there are to be special requirements for the format, we will consider about the other format supporting.
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Offline amyk

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2013, 05:20:57 am »
This is pretty common for many other devices that support USB mass storage. FAT32 is simple and well documented, and plenty of software libraries for it too. NTFS and exFAT are proprietary, and anything else is either non-Windows and/or too complex for this application.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2013, 07:18:11 am »

Thank for your attention, these questions that your response have explanation in the SDS1000 Service Manual,
http://siglent.com/en/server/download.aspx?nodecode=119004002007
"SDS1000CML Service Manual"
7.   U disk can't be recognized:
(1) Check if the U disk can work normally.
(2) Check if the USB Device interface can work normally.
(3) Make sure that the U disk being used is of flash type, the instrument does not support U disk of hardware type.
(4) Make sure the format of the U disk is FAT32.
(5) Restart the instrument and then insert the U disk to check it.
(6) If it is still in abnormal use, please contact SIGLENT.

If there are to be special requirements for the format, we will consider about the other format supporting.


Siglent, please.
Update your download center!
I just now downloaded it agen and what I get is this:


Quote
7. U disk can’t be recognized:
(1) Check if the U disk can work normally.
(2) Check if the USB Device interface can work normally.
(2) Make sure that the U disk being used is of flash type, the instrument
does not support U disk of hardware type.
(3) Make sure that the capacity of the U disk is not too large. It is suggested
that the capacity of the U disk matches to the oscilloscope is no larger
than 4 G.
(4) Restart the instrument and then insert the U disk to check it.
(5) If it is still in abnormal use, please contact SIGLENT.


So, you and me have different versions of manual.
Also your version do not tell anything about 4G capacity but your version tell FAT32 and  my version of manual do not tell this.

EDIT/Add: 4G limit is obsolete. (I have tested carefully example with 16G and works perfect. (new oscilloscope versions)

Also, this information need be available in normal user manual.
This and also other information need be accurate. With accurate  detailed information these is so much less troubles / confusion. 
With accurate and detailed information you may rise Siglent reputation and save lot of after sales customer help service work and it is also money.


Then, please add also (scpi) Programming manual to download center so that it can download separately. Also some commands and commands response need explain more detailed. So that peoples do not need try-fail-try iterations for find how they work.

Then please, add to every manual and every shared information sheets some version number so that can regognize what is more new. It is good to be directly visible on download center and it need be also "printed" inside manuals 1st or 2nd  page. (best is version number and publish date)

« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 05:08:50 am by rf-loop »
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Offline Zbig

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2013, 06:32:16 pm »
This is pretty common for many other devices that support USB mass storage. FAT32 is simple and well documented, and plenty of software libraries for it too. NTFS and exFAT are proprietary, and anything else is either non-Windows and/or too complex for this application.

Yup, I expected that, understand the reasons and I'm generally fine with that. I'm developing a device which uses microSD cards myself and I don't even think about supporting anything other than FAT. What I'm not 100% comfortable with is that it doesn't seem to perform any checks and just blindly writes to the stick as if it was FAT formatted, ruining the data structures in the process, rendering the stick unreadable until reformatted if you just try to use any other format.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2013, 07:04:14 pm »
I still have a few unopened 512M SD cards around, they are used with an old camera that only supports basic SD card functionality. As well I have a few 1G usb sticks for the same reason. Smallest is an 8M Sony MS, the smallest SD card is a 32M one that came with a phone.
 

Offline Siglent

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2013, 01:18:23 am »


Siglent, please.
Update your download center!
I just now downloaded it agen and what I get is this:


Quote
7. U disk can’t be recognized:
(1) Check if the U disk can work normally.
(2) Check if the USB Device interface can work normally.
(2) Make sure that the U disk being used is of flash type, the instrument
does not support U disk of hardware type.
(3) Make sure that the capacity of the U disk is not too large. It is suggested
that the capacity of the U disk matches to the oscilloscope is no larger
than 4 G.
(4) Restart the instrument and then insert the U disk to check it.
(5) If it is still in abnormal use, please contact SIGLENT.


So, you and me have different versions of manual.
Also your version do not tell anything about 4G capacity but your version tell FAT32 and  my version of manual do not tell this.

Also, this information need be available in normal user manual.
This and also other information need be accurate. With accurate  detailed information these is so much less troubles / confusion. 
With accurate and detailed information you may rise Siglent reputation and save lot of after sales customer help service work and it is also money.


Then, please add also (scpi) Programming manual to download center so that it can download separately. Also some commands and commands response need explain more detailed. So that peoples do not need try-fail-try iterations for find how they work.

Then please, add to every manual and every shared information sheets some version number so that can regognize what is more new. It is good to be directly visible on download center and it need be also "printed" inside manuals 1st or 2nd  page. (best is version number and publish date)

Sorry,we are dealing with the manual update.
When the first time found that the feedback problem, we immediately deal. Since this involves multiple departments and Program, therefore, need time to process, but these days we will update is complete
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 01:20:01 am by Siglent »
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Offline Siglent

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2013, 06:55:47 am »
The service Manual has been updated.
http://siglent.com/en/server/download.aspx?nodecode=119004002007
7. U disk can’t be recognized:
(1) Check if the U disk can work normally.
(2) Check if the USB Device interface can work normally.
(3) Make sure that the U disk being used is of flash type, the instrument
     does not support U disk of hardware type.
(4) Make sure that the capacity of the U disk is FAT32 file system.
(5) Restart the instrument and then insert the U disk to check it.
(6) If it is still in abnormal use, please contact SIGLENT.
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2013, 07:35:13 am »
The service Manual has been updated.
http://siglent.com/en/server/download.aspx?nodecode=119004002007
7. U disk can’t be recognized:
(1) Check if the U disk can work normally.
(2) Check if the USB Device interface can work normally.
(3) Make sure that the U disk being used is of flash type, the instrument
     does not support U disk of hardware type.
(4) Make sure that the capacity of the U disk is FAT32 file system.
(5) Restart the instrument and then insert the U disk to check it.
(6) If it is still in abnormal use, please contact SIGLENT.

Is it now ok for use example 16Gb or 32Gb  FAT32 file system USB stick without problems?

If not, then update your manual agen. Btw, FAT32 is not "capacity".

If only limit is FAT32 then please explain also supported cluster sizes.

Example today it is sometimes hard to find as small as 4G USB sticks (but still can find).
So, if now only limit is FAT32 then it is good news. Last time I have tried with 16G USB stick it fails and it was formatted for FAT32.

USB  version, can I use 1.1, can I use 2.0, how about 3.0 sticks
Maximum size 4G, 8G, 16G, 32G or more
Supported cluster sizes?

Now we know agen only that FAT32 is supported.

EDIT: Old 4G limit is obsolete. Least new versions what I have also tested do not have 4Gb limit. 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 05:14:21 am by rf-loop »
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Offline Zbig

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2013, 04:50:46 pm »
The service Manual has been updated.
http://siglent.com/en/server/download.aspx?nodecode=119004002007
7. U disk can’t be recognized:
(1) Check if the U disk can work normally.
(2) Check if the USB Device interface can work normally.
(3) Make sure that the U disk being used is of flash type, the instrument
     does not support U disk of hardware type.
(4) Make sure that the capacity of the U disk is FAT32 file system.
(5) Restart the instrument and then insert the U disk to check it.
(6) If it is still in abnormal use, please contact SIGLENT.

Hi "Siglent" (perhaps you could provide some nickname so at least we knew how to address you?)

In my opinion, it's unacceptable for a device which allows writing to the removable media to corrupt all the data on that media if it happens to use any other than the supported file system. Nobody reads a manual before using a USB stick in a USB socket. It's an extremely likely scenario that you just forget that you've reformatted your stick to NTFS in the past and all your data goes PUFF! before you're able to think twice. You just don't think about such things - you have a USB stick in your pocket so you put it into your scope - absolutely no one is going to read the (terribly written!) "Troubleshooting" section of the manual before doing that. It is essential that you guys implement some proper checks in future firmware version before the scope even tries to write anything to the USB drive. "Unsupported drive format!" message should be all that happens after user inserts a non-FAT formatted stick. Definitely the scope shouldn't proceed with mounting it let alone happily write blindly over non-supported data structures. Furthermore, as rf-loop already pointed out, it's already quite hard to get a USB stick as small as 4GB - this limitation should really be lifted as well.

Regarding your corrected manual section, I'm sorry to say but that's some terrible English (and factually inaccurate at places, as it's already been pointed out by others). I'm very, very far from being an expert in English language but let's try to make it suck a little less so my post isn't just an unhelpful whining:

First of all, before you implement proper format checks in firmware, put a huge warning in the relevant section (2.12?) of the manual:

WARNING!
Only FAT32 formatted USB sticks of capacity no greater than 4GB can be used. Using any other type of media will likely result in data loss!


7. USB disk is not recognized (you don't call it "U disk" in English):
- Make sure that the media type is correct. Only the USB flash drives are supported, USB hard disk drives are not supported. Maximum drive capacity is 4GB and the format has to be FAT32. Using other types of media may result in data loss.
- Check if the USB stick works properly in a computer.
- Restart the instrument, re-insert the USB stick and try again
- If the problems persist, please contact Siglent.


Regards,
Zbig
 

Offline Siglent

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2013, 02:16:21 am »
The service Manual has been updated.
http://siglent.com/en/server/download.aspx?nodecode=119004002007
7. U disk can’t be recognized:
(1) Check if the U disk can work normally.
(2) Check if the USB Device interface can work normally.
(3) Make sure that the U disk being used is of flash type, the instrument
     does not support U disk of hardware type.
(4) Make sure that the capacity of the U disk is FAT32 file system.
(5) Restart the instrument and then insert the U disk to check it.
(6) If it is still in abnormal use, please contact SIGLENT.

Hi "Siglent" (perhaps you could provide some nickname so at least we knew how to address you?)

In my opinion, it's unacceptable for a device which allows writing to the removable media to corrupt all the data on that media if it happens to use any other than the supported file system. Nobody reads a manual before using a USB stick in a USB socket. It's an extremely likely scenario that you just forget that you've reformatted your stick to NTFS in the past and all your data goes PUFF! before you're able to think twice. You just don't think about such things - you have a USB stick in your pocket so you put it into your scope - absolutely no one is going to read the (terribly written!) "Troubleshooting" section of the manual before doing that. It is essential that you guys implement some proper checks in future firmware version before the scope even tries to write anything to the USB drive. "Unsupported drive format!" message should be all that happens after user inserts a non-FAT formatted stick. Definitely the scope shouldn't proceed with mounting it let alone happily write blindly over non-supported data structures. Furthermore, as rf-loop already pointed out, it's already quite hard to get a USB stick as small as 4GB - this limitation should really be lifted as well.

Regarding your corrected manual section, I'm sorry to say but that's some terrible English (and factually inaccurate at places, as it's already been pointed out by others). I'm very, very far from being an expert in English language but let's try to make it suck a little less so my post isn't just an unhelpful whining:

First of all, before you implement proper format checks in firmware, put a huge warning in the relevant section (2.12?) of the manual:

WARNING!
Only FAT32 formatted USB sticks of capacity no greater than 4GB can be used. Using any other type of media will likely result in data loss!


7. USB disk is not recognized (you don't call it "U disk" in English):
- Make sure that the media type is correct. Only the USB flash drives are supported, USB hard disk drives are not supported. Maximum drive capacity is 4GB and the format has to be FAT32. Using other types of media may result in data loss.
- Check if the USB stick works properly in a computer.
- Restart the instrument, re-insert the USB stick and try again
- If the problems persist, please contact Siglent.


Regards,
Zbig

The manual has been updated,as fllowing
(1) Check if the USB can work normally.
(2) Check if the USB Device interface can work normally.
(3) Make sure that the USB disk being used is of flash type, the instrument
     does not support USB of hardware type.
(4) Make sure that the capacity of the USB disk is FAT32 file system.
(5) Restart the instrument and then insert the USB to check it.
(6) If it is still in abnormal use, please contact with SIGLENT.

There are some instructions.
1. Non- FAT32 format system just does not support , but it will not damage the data
2.The maximum drive capacity is more than 4GB
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Offline amyk

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2013, 10:35:24 am »
There are some instructions.
1. Non- FAT32 format system just does not support , but it will not damage the data
2.The maximum drive capacity is more than 4GB
Does this mean you updated the firmware too?
 

Offline Siglent

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2013, 03:01:41 am »
There are some instructions.
1. Non- FAT32 format system just does not support , but it will not damage the data
2.The maximum drive capacity is more than 4GB
Does this mean you updated the firmware too?

The siglent oscilloscopes had been updated in the past.
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Offline Zbig

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2013, 04:42:34 pm »
[..]
1. Non- FAT32 format system just does not support , but it will not damage the data
[..]

Hmm... well, care to explain this, then?

 

Offline Siglent

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2013, 01:48:21 am »
[..]
1. Non- FAT32 format system just does not support , but it will not damage the data
[..]

Hmm... well, care to explain this, then?


SDS1000 oscilloscope series support the FAT32 format, for the non-FAT32 format system does not recognize, however, for the non-FAT32 format will not cause damage to the system files.
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Offline amyk

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2013, 10:48:36 am »
It doesn't enspire any confidence when a manufacture ignores what their customers are telling them.

Why are you here Siglent if you don't want to hear what your customers are telling you ?
Probably more of a language barrier than active ignorance...

@Zbig: You should show the firmware version.
 

Offline Zbig

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2013, 12:17:24 pm »
It doesn't enspire any confidence when a manufacture ignores what their customers are telling them.

Why are you here Siglent if you don't want to hear what your customers are telling you ?
Probably more of a language barrier than active ignorance...

Furthermore, chances are the Siglent representative here wasn't able to view this at all as they block YouTube access in China, AFAIK. That wasn't the smartest video hosting site choice on my side  :-[

@Zbig: You should show the firmware version.

Good point, I knew I forgot something. It's 5.01.02.13.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2013, 12:54:27 pm »

Furthermore, chances are the Siglent representative here wasn't able to view this at all as they block YouTube access in China, AFAIK. 

Yes, YouTube is blocked. (and I hope more countries follow China)

But there is example Youku.

How to set up a Youku account in English
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2013, 12:57:48 pm »
Furthermore, chances are the Siglent representative here wasn't able to view this at all as they block YouTube access in China, AFAIK.

Yes, I can confirm that the Chinese manufacturers can't view my videos because of the Youtube block.
 

Offline Zbig

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2013, 06:24:31 pm »
Bummer. Thanks for the link, rf-loop, but I gave up trying to create Youku account as they apparently changed the registration form.

@Siglent: you can get the video file here: https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=F2AEECE214DB131B!105
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2013, 06:58:27 pm »
Bummer. Thanks for the link, rf-loop, but I gave up trying to create Youku account as they apparently changed the registration form.

@Siglent: you can get the video file here: https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=F2AEECE214DB131B!105

This skydrive  they can sure use becouse also Siglent itself  use it for some purposes.
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Offline Siglent

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2013, 01:38:54 am »
Unfortunately, there can not view the youtube, we can view the SkyDrive
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1000 series - use only FAT-formatted USB sticks
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2013, 06:06:33 pm »
About USB stick (Flash Drive) size.

Due to older Siglent manuals and also perhaps older HW/FW versions, I have told also to my customers that 4G is max and need be FAT32.  This 4Gb limit is obsolete information.

I have tested now this with 
HW: 11-62-3.3
FW: 5.01.02.13

version and least with this version 4G limit is history.


USB flash disk used in test:

Kingston DTSE9, 16G
Filesystem FAT32


Windows show:
Quote
Volume KINGSTON (F:)
    Volume size                    = 14,63 GB
    Cluster size                   = 16 KB
    Used space                     = 39 MB
    Free space                     = 14,59 GB
    Percent free space             = 99 %

There was over 30 files made by Owon and also some small random files stored by windows.

This 16Gb USB stick works perfect, it did not damaged any files there.

All data stored perfectly with scope and also it can perfectly read data to scope. (.DAV file)
(.DAV file is waveform data. It can also read back to scope and it can measure and zoom etc just as what ever stopped signal capture)

Also with long .CSV no any problem.

CSV store to USB stick using 2M capture memory takes long time, but result is perfect. (>50Mb)
Slow timebase recording to USB also pass.

So, it is now also proofed that 4G size limit is obsolete.
Time of test there was not available 32G.
Also I test with Kingston DTSE9, 8G  (works perfect)

But one time I try with some old transcent 8G (not regognized by Siglent but Thinkpad can use it normally. I remember that this same stick have also earlier with some other equipment have some troubles)

Here sample about CH1 CSV data using normal memory and then it is opened using OpenOffice Calc. (from 16G Kingston)

And TFT image about this same signal. (CSV data is >40000bytes) (from 16G Kingston, BMP to PNG)

« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 05:25:06 am by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Harmony OS
 


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