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Siglent SDS1000X HD 12bit DSO's

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robert.rozee:
hopefully folks won't deride this as a silly question... but what practical usage advantage does a 12-bit scope have over an 8-bit scope?

it seems to me that 12-bits gets you a 16x vertical zoom advantage, but i can't see that as being something that would be of much value in most usage cases. and how much useful information do those extra 4 bits really carry?

a distinct disadvantage seems to be the loss of features at a given price point, as manufacturers need to cut costs elsewhere to pay for the 12-bit hardware. for instance: all else being equal, would you rather your 4-channel scope have a single shared 12-bit ADC, or 4 independent 8-bit ADC?

i also wonder if much of the advantage of a 12-bit ADC could be achieved with front-end improvements that allow precise DC offsetting (even if only on 1 of the 4 channels) that gives you a view into a narrow vertical band (for example, dial in a 5v offset so you you can look at a 4.95v to 5.05v band without distortions due to over-driving of the front end).


cheers,
rob   :-)

Martin72:
Hi,


--- Quote ---a distinct disadvantage seems to be the loss of features at a given price point, as manufacturers need to cut costs elsewhere to pay for the 12-bit hardware.
--- End quote ---

I think this only applies to the low-cost variants in order to be able to offer a 12-bit scope in the segment at all.
The lecroy HDO6034B for example has the full sample rate and the full memory even if all channels are active.
But it also costs 18000$ as an entry in this series.
That's why the models from Siglent (2000X+HD) and Rigol (DHO4000) are also low cost, with corresponding concessions.
These become even more significant if you make it even cheaper (DHO1000 and SDS1000X HD, respectively).
So what are the advantages, a small insight gives this article:
https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/article/21805339/whats-really-the-difference-between-a-12bit-and-8bit-oscilloscope

I took last year nearly 3600€ in the hand and stood before the decision, I buy the new 12 bit model of siglent, with max 2GSa/s and 100Mhz(max. 500Mhz).
Or the SDS5000X with 350Mhz (max 1Ghz) and 5GSa/s.
Both cost about the same.
I decided then for 12bit, because I would like to use its advantages in the middle future.
For my current measurements in practice it is irrelevant whether 8bit or 12bit.
You have to think about it, do I really need a higher accuracy (now or later) yes or no.
Because currently you can get a better equipped 8 bit scope for the same money or even less.
E.g. for a DHO1000 a MSO5000 from rigol or a 2000X+ from Siglent.
Or for a DHO4000 or 2000+HD a SDS5000X.

robert.rozee:

--- Quote from: Martin72 on April 02, 2023, 10:13:10 pm ---https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/article/21805339/whats-really-the-difference-between-a-12bit-and-8bit-oscilloscope
--- End quote ---

good article, although i was a little puzzled by this part:
"Most modern, mid-range oscilloscopes include a high-resolution mode, which increases the number of bits by filtering. In essence, bandwidth is traded off for the increased dynamic range. Basically you get one additional bit for each halving of the scope’s bandwidth. Therefore, to achieve a 4-bit increase, it would reduce the scope’s bandwidth by 16:1. So if you start with a 1-GHz scope, increasing the resolution to 12 bits with the high-resolution mode would reduce the scope’s bandwidth to below 100 MHz."

my understand was that for each ONE bit increase, it required 4x oversampling, leading to a bandwidth [addendum: i should probably be talking about 'sample rate' here, not 'bandwidth'] reduction of 256:1 to get the extra 4 bits. perhaps we are instead seeing 10-bit ADCs being used with a further 2 bits then obtained in software to give us the final 12 bits. i shall need to research this point some more - if the author is correct then i have a few (abandoned) projects i need to revisit!

he does present one example, a decaying ringing, that nicely illustrates a useful application, and i guess if this sort of example dominates your area of interest then a 12-bit scope would be a time-saver. however, i could see that with the right setup the same level of detail could be captured with two 8-bit channels each set for different vertical scales (once over-driving issues were eliminated).

you are right, that in the end it comes down to balancing budgets and individual user cases. and as always, any advances will filter down over time into even the lowest end of the market. essentially, a 12-bit scope is one step towards replacing the venerable 3½-digit multimeter on one's workbench. but for today, at what cost?


cheers,
rob   :-)


addendum (a day later) see text in bold red above

baldurn:
If you are going to do math, especially FFT, those extra bits will make a huge difference.

In addition the noise floor of the SDS2000X-HD is specified as 50 mikrovolt. The SDS2000X+ specifies "sensitivity" of 0.5 div with minimum div of 500 mikrovolt = 250 mikrovolt. So I expect you do get less noise?

Also looks like the new SDS1000X-HD is getting the new "glass cockpit". I know it is the same UI etc but I think it looks nicer :-)

tautech:

--- Quote from: baldurn on April 03, 2023, 12:54:54 am ---Also looks like the new SDS1000X-HD is getting the new "glass cockpit". I know it is the same UI etc but I think it looks nicer :-)

--- End quote ---
What does that actually mean, you've lost me what a glass cockpit has to do with a DSO ?  :-//

SDS1000X HD is in the exact same enclosure as SDS2000X HD with the same physical measurements 317.2 mm × 236.0 mm × 149.0 mm and same weight too 4.1 kg.

This newish front panel layout is a consolidation and improvement of SDS2000X Plus with smarter use of the GUI and menu structure however I am saddened SDS1000X HD is not apparently supplied with a wireless mouse as SDS2000X HD and SDS6000A are as this UI does benefit from use with a mouse although it certainly doesn't require one to be fully functional.

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