Author Topic: Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review  (Read 38802 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15745
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review
« Reply #150 on: February 16, 2019, 09:03:56 am »
Yep Marty these 2 probes are physically identical.
Your mention is the first I've seen of any problems with the hook hat connection.
Have to tried swapping hats to confirm just the hat is the issue ?

In a YT video Defpom did with my demo unit (mid '17 manufacture) he had issues with the hat's coming apart, that is the plastic retainer was popping out of the hat so we sent Siglent this info for them to pass onto their probe supplier. Haven't seen any further reports of this problem so it must have been sorted.  :phew:
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 801
  • Country: at
Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review
« Reply #151 on: February 16, 2019, 10:25:08 am »
So I ask: while it has mostly similar performance, is the PP215 constructed any more durably than the PP510? The '215 is certainly more costly (I'm surprised at just how cheap the PP510 is versus even the Owon T5100's I had on my previous scope... those seemed pretty solid to me), but is basically the same (particularly the hook end)?
I would have to say that the (my) PP510 and PP215 are not physically identical, but – and this is a big “but” – I cannot really comment on the current situation.

Like most other brands, Siglent do not manufacture the standard probes themselves but rely on some company specialized in probe design and manufacturing.

My SDS1000X-E DSOs are very early pre-production units and the supplied probes are most likely not from the latest batch. Siglent might have even decided to change the probe manufacturer at some point. I would still expect the electrical performance to remain pretty much unchanged, since all probes are manufactured according to Siglent’s specifications, which ensure the best possible match with their scopes in terms of HF compensation.

I got my PP215 in Q1/2017, PP510 in Q3/2017.

At a first glance, they look very similar (see Probes_PP510_PP215_01.jpg, PP510 is at the top), but there are major differences in the electrical specifications already (see Data_PP510_PP215.png)

The voltage rating is marked on the probes and reads slightly different on the PP215 when compared to the datasheet: 600V DC PK AC CAT II

The tips are gold plated on my PP215 (see Tips_PP510_PP215_01.jpg, PP510 is at the top).

The hooks are different too. More like wire type on PP510, blade type on PP215.

The internals of the hooks look slightly different too (see Hooks_PP510_PP215_01.jpg, PP510 is at the left).

Both hooks fit perfectly fine on their respective probes, there really is no difference of practical relevance.

Tautech should have seen much more recent versions of the PP510 and PP215, so his comments are ultimately more relevant for the current situation.
 
The following users thanked this post: MartyMacGyver

Offline HendriXML

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 556
  • Country: nl
    • KiCad-BOM-reporter
Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review
« Reply #152 on: April 08, 2019, 03:19:00 pm »
Here comes an in-depth review of the optional SAG1021 AWG.

It’s a bit ridiculous, but I had to split the review for this humble little AWG into four parts (three would have worked too, but I didn’t want to tear the sine wave chapter apart). So here are the first two parts:

SAG1021 Review 1-8
- Operation
- Zero Adjust
- Frequency Accuracy


SAG1021 Review 8-25
- Waveforms
-- Sine
--- Amplitude Accuracy
--- Harmonic Distortion
--- Phase Noise
I’ve read your review, thanks for all the effort!

I’ve found the following issue
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-and-sag1021-unwanted-dc-offset/
Any thought or suggestions?

You did some precise DC measurements, did you dc-offset the AWG using the scope?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 03:26:19 pm by HendriXML »
“I ‘d like to reincarnate as a dung beetle, ‘cause there’s nothing wrong with a shitty life, real misery comes from high expectations”
 

Offline Rerouter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4293
  • Country: au
  • Question Everything... Except This Statement
Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review
« Reply #153 on: April 09, 2019, 08:51:36 am »
The scope auto zero gets generally within 3-5 dac steps, the manual zero gets better, if it drifts, it seems to be a slow drift. but is does change after a week powered down.
 

Offline Cpx

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 14
Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review
« Reply #154 on: May 03, 2019, 01:02:17 am »
Does this scope have have channel digital filers hidden somewhere?
From my current research i couldn't find any :(.
Are there plans to be added in the future like in  the CML series ?
Thanks! :-+
 

Offline rf-loop

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3061
  • Country: fi
  • Starting with DLL21
Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review
« Reply #155 on: May 03, 2019, 07:10:06 am »
Does this scope have have channel digital filers hidden somewhere?
From my current research i couldn't find any :(.


No.

Digital side filters are good in some situations with some notes related to aliasing and this depends also if filter input data is true full samplerate or if it use decimated samples. Filter itself do not know if filter input signal is ADC produced alias or true signal. So user need some times be careful and not always blind believe results.
Only really trusted filters are in analog side before ADC. Now and for (nearly) ever.

Of course SDS1000X-E  still have some in digital side but they do not name it as filter.
It works like  low pass filter but is in digital side.
And user can not adjust it using corner frequency. Not very handy but more than nothing.

Eres acts like Low Pass Filter. 

It is explained here (note that all details are not same in Siglent but still useful to read, same principles. http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/appnotes/an_006a.pdf

Example (LeCroy AN-006A, table 1) with full 1GSa/s  3bit Eres is around 8MHz LPF.
With 10MSa/s it is like 80kHz LPF.
I have not measured with Siglent but roughly in same ballpark.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review
« Reply #156 on: May 03, 2019, 07:52:50 am »
Eres acts like Low Pass Filter.

but you can't set the corner frequency, and you don't have highpass/bandpass/notch.
I would find digital filters to be useful to look at for example pwm signal. One can use the integrator math operator in conjunction with the offset to produce something that resembles a LPF but the result is rather poor. Same with HPF/Differentiator.
Another is to filter out specific content, BEFORE doing further analysis

Is there a plan to add them? I remember reading something about it a long time ago..
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2029
  • Country: hr
Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review
« Reply #157 on: May 03, 2019, 08:33:56 am »
Does this scope have have channel digital filers hidden somewhere?
From my current research i couldn't find any :(.


No.

Digital side filters are good in some situations with some notes related to aliasing and this depends also if filter input data is true full samplerate or if it use decimated samples. Filter itself do not know if filter input signal is ADC produced alias or true signal. So user need some times be careful and not always blind believe results.
Only really trusted filters are in analog side before ADC. Now and for (nearly) ever.

Of course SDS1000X-E  still have some in digital side but they do not name it as filter.
It works like  low pass filter but is in digital side.
And user can not adjust it using corner frequency. Not very handy but more than nothing.

Eres acts like Low Pass Filter. 

It is explained here (note that all details are not same in Siglent but still useful to read, same principles. http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/appnotes/an_006a.pdf

Example (LeCroy AN-006A, table 1) with full 1GSa/s  3bit Eres is around 8MHz LPF.
With 10MSa/s it is like 80kHz LPF.
I have not measured with Siglent but roughly in same ballpark.

I believe you misunderstood.
We are talking about user filters (Keysight and Rigol have them in Math, GW Instek has an App) whose purpose to apply filters to signals as way to  look at the signal. Instead of having signal routed trough some device to filter out what you don't want to see, you can do it on the scope. It is also useful to experiment how signal would look if you were to apply some filter etc..
On higher end LeCroy scopes you have Filter Toolbox so you can create and and test filters for your signal on a scope as a part of a design process..

I expect it to be added at least to new 5000 series, although there is no technical reason that would prevent it from being added to 1000 and 2000 series. They are more than powerful enough.
 

Offline Rerouter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4293
  • Country: au
  • Question Everything... Except This Statement
Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review
« Reply #158 on: May 03, 2019, 08:47:18 am »
The other scopes seem to use a FIR filtering scheme, where it generates a coefficient for the filter type you want, then just processes through the sample memory to spit out a math trace that is the filtered waveform,

In the scheme of things it does not seem to be an expensive operation, https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/061d/3f5263b1a7e2f7b2d98f87d95257a123e1ae.pdf

But I am not familiar enough with editing at assembly level to understand how one could patch it in. I know the menu / help tool tips structure still exists in the scope configuration and is switched off, but Its not clear where that switch is. or if the related functions are still compiled in.
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15745
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review
« Reply #159 on: May 03, 2019, 10:26:08 am »
Does this scope have have channel digital filers hidden somewhere?
The best filters are the ones between you ears and knowing how to use them.

Filters, I do not want to risk removing any info but rather enhance it so we first apply the filter between ears and then the tools the scope provides.
When we connect a scope to DUT we do not always see nice lines that clearly show the info we seek but with enough sampling and WFM/s we know the info is there and then operator skill is required to display the info without losing important information.

There are some powerful Display and Acquisition tools without even engaging all the Trigger tools.
DPO is not to be overlooked too.
A few screenshots without resorting to any triggering or BW limit tools.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline rf-loop

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3061
  • Country: fi
  • Starting with DLL21
Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review
« Reply #160 on: May 03, 2019, 10:39:55 am »
Eres acts like Low Pass Filter.

but you can't set the corner frequency, and you don't have highpass/bandpass/notch.

Yes, all just as I told in previous message. There is not this kind of user settable FIR filters in SDS1000X-E series. 

In my first answer this first "No." was answer to main question if there is these filters you ask.
(looks like some others also did not even read my answer. Perhaps two many words in whole answer.)


(after then I talk about other thing: Eres, what can use for do some LPF (it is couple of FIR's) but user need calculate or know corner freq with different samplerates and different Eres bit value (0.5 to 3.0 bits))


Quote
I would find digital filters to be useful to look at for example pwm signal. One can use the integrator math operator in conjunction with the offset to produce something that resembles a LPF but the result is rather poor. Same with HPF/Differentiator.
Another is to filter out specific content, BEFORE doing further analysis

If these filters are for just "nice image" or not so serious work they are ok and some times "wanted".
If they are used for real true qualitative and quantitative signal analysis and want trusted data. Then need enough  knowledge about all these filters specifications with data and even data about possible error building mechanisms.

Quote
Is there a plan to add them? I remember reading something about it a long time ago..

I have never heard or seen any official promise or forecast. (when we talk about SDS1000X-E series)
(Old SDS1000 models have digital LPF, BPF, HPF, they have even true dual independent timebase ALT with dual trigger engine. These advantages have dropped out from SDS1kX/X-E series.)

Only fact we know, there is not now this kind of filters. (SDS1000X-E series)
Prediction is usually difficult. Forecasting the future is particularly difficult.

It is best to think - food what is now ready in hand, only it can eat.

Of course this and that and even more can add and improve. One want this and other want that and those things - endlessy. If I make product I tell what it is. Buyer think if it pass for him as it is. If not, buyer buy other product what is ok for his needs. Simple. Different products have different pros and cons.

I know least hundred things, or even more, long wish list to Siglent Santaclaus what all I like to get. ;)

Waiting Santaclaus....
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline maxwell3e10

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review
« Reply #161 on: May 03, 2019, 09:36:19 pm »
Yes, digital filters are useful in a number of situations and in principle easy to implement. Micsig TO1104, Keysight 1000X and Instek GDS-1054B have build-in filter functions. So its a bit of a minus for Siglent.
 

Offline Rerouter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4293
  • Country: au
  • Question Everything... Except This Statement
Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review
« Reply #162 on: May 03, 2019, 10:12:17 pm »
To give context, This is what exists in the 1000X-E files, there is also a file "pro_filter_cfg.bin" in the same folder as where the licenses are stored, and in a similar format to those licenses.

Menu options
Code: [Select]
<channel_filter_menu>
<name>FILTER</name>
<button1>
<title>Filter</title>
<option1>Off</option1>
<option2>On</option2>
</button1>
<button2>
<title>Type</title>
</button2>
<button3>
<title>Low Limit</title>
<option1></option1>
</button3>
<button4>
<title>High Limit</title>
<option1></option1>
</button4>
<button5>
<title></title>
</button5>
<button6>
</button6>
</channel_filter_menu>

button help text
Code: [Select]
<channel_filter_menu>
<main_help></main_help>
<button1></button1>
<button2></button2>
<button3></button3>
<button4></button4>
<button5></button5>
<button6></button6>
</channel_filter_menu>

And an interesting section in the "TEMPLATE?" SCPI command
Code: [Select]
Record Type:
_0 single_sweep
_1 interleaved
_2 histogram
_3 graph
_4 filter_coefficient
_5 complex
_6 extrema
_7 sequence_obsolete
_8 centered_RIS
_9 peak_detect

PROCESSING_DONE:
_0 no_processing
_1 fir_filter
_2 interpolated
_3 sparsed
_4 autoscaled
_5 no_result
_6 rolling
_7 cumulative
 

Offline CiscERsang

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 96
  • Country: za
Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review
« Reply #163 on: May 14, 2019, 02:21:49 pm »
Hello everyone,

As far as I understood from  In-Depth-Review, SDS1104X-E is younger model than SDS1202X-E. Am I correct?

Thank you!
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15745
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review
« Reply #164 on: May 14, 2019, 06:11:20 pm »
Hello everyone,

As far as I understood from  In-Depth-Review, SDS1104X-E is younger model than SDS1202X-E.
Am I correct?
Yes, correct.
The UI is very very similar with only a few different buttons and a shared vertical control for the 4ch model.

They were released less than 1 year apart.

Study the datasheet and user manual for the differences between the 2 and 4ch X-E models.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline bobof

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 6
  • Country: gb
PP215 minor probe annoyances
« Reply #165 on: June 15, 2019, 08:45:34 pm »
Picked up an SDS1204X-E from siglent.eu the other day (very fast service by the way).  Couple of annoyances with the probes:
1) the tips are pretty dull.  The probes I have from my previous inherited TDS220 scope (some Velleman things) had really nice sharp tips which would dig in a little and avoid slippage
2) the 1x 10x switches are very sensitive to being knocked.

I very rarely if ever come out of 10x - any suggestions for a nice quality economic 10x fixed probe with a nice sharp tip, that play well with the SDS1204X-E?  Thanks! :)
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2029
  • Country: hr
Re: PP215 minor probe annoyances
« Reply #166 on: June 15, 2019, 10:31:09 pm »
Picked up an SDS1204X-E from siglent.eu the other day (very fast service by the way).  Couple of annoyances with the probes:
1) the tips are pretty dull.  The probes I have from my previous inherited TDS220 scope (some Velleman things) had really nice sharp tips which would dig in a little and avoid slippage
2) the 1x 10x switches are very sensitive to being knocked.

I very rarely if ever come out of 10x - any suggestions for a nice quality economic 10x fixed probe with a nice sharp tip, that play well with the SDS1204X-E?  Thanks! :)
I use Testec. Not cheapest, but decent price for good quality..
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15745
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: PP215 minor probe annoyances
« Reply #167 on: June 15, 2019, 10:43:47 pm »
Picked up an SDS1204X-E from siglent.eu the other day (very fast service by the way).  Couple of annoyances with the probes:
1) the tips are pretty dull.  The probes I have from my previous inherited TDS220 scope (some Velleman things) had really nice sharp tips which would dig in a little and avoid slippage
2) the 1x 10x switches are very sensitive to being knocked.

I very rarely if ever come out of 10x - any suggestions for a nice quality economic 10x fixed probe with a nice sharp tip, that play well with the SDS1204X-E?  Thanks! :)
Welcome.

The Siglent SP2030A (300MHz) that comes with the SDS2304X is a 10x fixed auto-sense probe and somewhat smaller and nicer the the SDS1*04X-E probes so you might want to price them up from your supplier.
The list price I have is $59ea.

Performa01 swept their performance in the link below and while they're not a perfect match for the SDS1204X-E they just meet the -3dB 200MHz spec.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline bobof

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 6
  • Country: gb
Re: PP215 minor probe annoyances
« Reply #168 on: June 15, 2019, 11:53:24 pm »
Welcome.

The Siglent SP2030A (300MHz) that comes with the SDS2304X is a 10x fixed auto-sense probe and somewhat smaller and nicer the the SDS1*04X-E probes so you might want to price them up from your supplier.
The list price I have is $59ea.

Performa01 swept their performance in the link below and while they're not a perfect match for the SDS1204X-E they just meet the -3dB 200MHz spec.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665
Thanks :) I saw that post which was why I was asking if anyone had one that was a good match.  The Siglent SP2030A looks "OK" I guess. 
I don't suppose the tips are interchangeable at all on the PP215 probes?  If they were, I might settle for some heatshrink over the loosey goosey 10x switch... :)
I use Testec. Not cheapest, but decent price for good quality..
I guess see above re: matching, @performa01 thought the testec they were looking at was the worst match of the lot they looked at.  Was there a particular model you're using?
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2029
  • Country: hr
Re: PP215 minor probe annoyances
« Reply #169 on: June 16, 2019, 12:12:38 am »
I use Testec. Not cheapest, but decent price for good quality..
I guess see above re: matching, @performa01 thought the testec they were looking at was the worst match of the lot they looked at.  Was there a particular model you're using?

Testec TT-HF-212. They work well with Keysight, Rigol and Picoscope. Replaceable tips, nice accessories.
I also have Pico TA131 that came with Picoscope. Also good, but discontinued..
I rarely use fancy Keysight 500MHz probes...
 
The following users thanked this post: bobof

Offline Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 801
  • Country: at
Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review
« Reply #170 on: June 16, 2019, 12:13:11 am »
Yes, the Testec MF312 was not a good match for the little SDS1202X-E. It had the worst frequency flatness up to 200MHz, but the Siglent SP2030 was equally bad around 40MHz.

The PP215 are cheap probes and their tips cannot be replaced. However you could try to sharpen them with a grindstone...

Other than that, I would really recommend to get the Picotech TA131. They have nice sharp tips and the x10 switch has enough mechanical resistance so that it cannot be operated by accident.
I have heard from some other member who was able to get this probes fairly cheap on eBay. So you might try that.
 
The following users thanked this post: 2N3055, bobof

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2029
  • Country: hr
Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review
« Reply #171 on: June 16, 2019, 12:21:29 am »
If I get a bit of time I can sweep TT HF212 on Keysight. I don't have a proper leveled gen, but SDG6052X should be good enough for probe comparison..
 
The following users thanked this post: Performa01

Offline Performa01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 801
  • Country: at
Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review
« Reply #172 on: June 16, 2019, 12:36:37 am »
If I get a bit of time I can sweep TT HF212 on Keysight. I don't have a proper leveled gen, but SDG6052X should be good enough for probe comparison..
That would be interesting - even though it is not a definitive indication how this probe would perform on a Siglent SDS1204X-E.

Amplitude flatness of the SDG6000X is excellent - better than most levelled RF generators. Look here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds2074x-actual-scope-bandwidth/msg1906445/#msg1906445
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2029
  • Country: hr
Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review
« Reply #173 on: June 16, 2019, 12:45:00 am »
If I get a bit of time I can sweep TT HF212 on Keysight. I don't have a proper leveled gen, but SDG6052X should be good enough for probe comparison..
That would be interesting - even though it is not a definitive indication how this probe would perform on a Siglent SDS1204X-E.

Amplitude flatness of the SDG6000X is excellent - better than most levelled RF generators. Look here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds2074x-actual-scope-bandwidth/msg1906445/#msg1906445

It's a deal then. I don't have Siglent scope, but I will sweep both Testec and Pico 131 to get some comparison that could be at least partially correlated with your measurements..
 
The following users thanked this post: Performa01, BillB

Offline BillB

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 545
  • Country: us
Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review
« Reply #174 on: June 16, 2019, 11:37:59 am »
Looks like the Pico 131 are discontinued, replaced by TA386.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf