Author Topic: Siglent SDS1104X-E oder Rigol MSO5074 - double price, much better?  (Read 1766 times)

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Offline Pfriemler

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E oder Rigol MSO5074 - double price, much better?
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2021, 09:36:37 am »
It's at home, but not me. :-( The DG811, which will become another model afap :-)
once you do it right, it works :-)
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E oder Rigol MSO5074 - double price, much better?
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2021, 10:01:47 am »
First, they are not DAC they are ADC,

Example one 1GSa/s 16bit ADC, Texas Instruments  ADS54J60  ADC 1pcs chip price is more than whole brand new SDS1104X-E oscilloscope in box delivered to you, Oscilloscope price is lot of more than just BOM.

Actually more than three brand new SDS1104X-Es:

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/texas-instruments/ADS54J60IRMP/5481841

Also 16 bit A/D would need to bump up internal math engine. Now it is 16 bit for 8 bit data. 16 Bit A/D would need 32 bit math... Everything would need to be upgraded.. To at least twice the size and speed...

A bigger FPGA can be done.

The real problem is upgrading the entire front end to reduce the noise down to a suitable level. Manufacturers are already struggling to get the noise to to the -48dB required for 8-bit systems, how can they possibly make it to -96dB?

In short: Never gonna happen. The tiny improvement on screen would never justify the massive cost.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2021, 10:04:06 am by Fungus »
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E oder Rigol MSO5074 - double price, much better?
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2021, 11:09:21 am »
First, they are not DAC they are ADC,

Example one 1GSa/s 16bit ADC, Texas Instruments  ADS54J60  ADC 1pcs chip price is more than whole brand new SDS1104X-E oscilloscope in box delivered to you, Oscilloscope price is lot of more than just BOM.

Actually more than three brand new SDS1104X-Es:

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/texas-instruments/ADS54J60IRMP/5481841



You really think some one buy from Digikey for manufacturing. Why there need be some "third party".
TI china,  https://www.ti.com.cn/     
Price is 3994 CNY. Roughly 520 eur. And this is public price for small amount!
« Last Edit: June 19, 2021, 11:12:58 am by rf-loop »
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Offline Pfriemler

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E oder Rigol MSO5074 - double price, much better?
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2021, 02:10:06 pm »
Convinced. 16bit is too much resolution for most cases. But even 12bit makes a big difference (post by Sighound36) for measurement purposes. I was looking for an inexpensive general purpose scope, which just doesn't exist. Of course I didn't expect this resolution for the whole bandwidth - surely noise can be easily reduced with reduced bandwidth?
Why are the 16bit ADCs so expensive? This has nothing to do with the real production costs, the development has to be paid. With appropriate numbers of units, this should become much cheaper very quickly?
Dream aside. I would just like to have the accuracies of good multimeters in the measured values on the screen next to the curve image and one less measuring device on the table.
Thanks for all the clarification. It's not as simple as I thought, probably also because there is no mass market for it.
But interesting: Actually, this was only a side issue, originally it was about the benefit of a doubled investment...
once you do it right, it works :-)
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E oder Rigol MSO5074 - double price, much better?
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2021, 04:43:12 pm »
Convinced. 16bit is too much resolution for most cases. But even 12bit makes a big difference (post by Sighound36) for measurement purposes. I was looking for an inexpensive general purpose scope, which just doesn't exist. Of course I didn't expect this resolution for the whole bandwidth - surely noise can be easily reduced with reduced bandwidth?
Why are the 16bit ADCs so expensive? This has nothing to do with the real production costs, the development has to be paid. With appropriate numbers of units, this should become much cheaper very quickly?
Dream aside. I would just like to have the accuracies of good multimeters in the measured values on the screen next to the curve image and one less measuring device on the table.
Thanks for all the clarification. It's not as simple as I thought, probably also because there is no mass market for it.
But interesting: Actually, this was only a side issue, originally it was about the benefit of a doubled investment...

12-bit is only going to be an improvement if you take care of a lot of other things first.  Sighound36 didn't post the exact models of his 12-bit scopes, but I'm pretty sure the cost of them would be prohibitive to the casual hobbyist--and probably to many professional engineers.  Picoscope makes a 12-bit 20MHz (your reduced bandwidth) scope module (which requires a PC to work) that costs $1500 in 4-channel form.  Other scopes have 10-bit, 12-bit or even 16-bit enhanced modes (Tek 5-series--starting at $15K) at reduced bandwidth.  Unless you have some way of reducing the input noise, these enhanced modes are probably as good as the real thing.

I think the assumption that mass production or demand will automatically lead to wide availability at appealing prices is unwarranted.  Some things are hard and expensive to make, period.  I'm sure there is no limit to the market for a $1000 12-bit 500MHz scope with 80dB dynamic range and 0.1% DC accuracy.  In actuality, despite any remaining bugs and flaws, better entry level and one level up instruments like the the MSO5000 and SDS2000X+ are absolute miracles in terms of their performance per dollar.  Competitive pressures are already quite high in this market.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E oder Rigol MSO5074 - double price, much better?
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2021, 09:27:35 pm »
Analog Discovery is 14 bits but it's 100MS/s so only about 30MHz bandwidth. It costs about the same as a low-end 4-channel DSO.


 


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