Author Topic: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?  (Read 53617 times)

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Offline KungFuJosh

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Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« on: August 18, 2018, 05:53:42 pm »
Hi,

I'm curious about the Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z. I understand the main differences, and the two things that peak my interest are that, from what I've read, the FFT appears to be better on the Siglent, and the Siglent has double the sampling rate in multi-channel use.

My question is, for my uses, does it matter? Is the Siglent really worth the extra cash?

I'm primarily using a scope on tube guitar amplifiers, microphones, and sometimes guitar effect pedals. Anything beyond that will be out of curiosity or for fun and not essential. Even the FFT function will probably only be out of curiosity, but it may prove useful. I don't know yet.

I've already purchased the DS1054Z and have the official upgrades on it (and I like it), but I'm within the return period and a lot of people on this site have been pushing that Siglent model. I think probably both models are overkill for my needs, but I really know very little about oscilloscopes, so please let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Josh
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2018, 09:21:10 pm »
Consider the Siglent as a base 'platform' for the other functionality it has. Sure vs the Rigol it offers better performance but what else it's capable of can be worth the extra $ when/if you get to need it.
Say you want a 25 MHz AWG, or WiFi, or 16ch MSO, it's the base platform to support those capabilities.

Only you can make that decision.
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Online Adrian_Arg.

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2018, 11:28:20 pm »
hi, I have a ds1054z, totally released, I'm really very concoforme for u $ s 330. I do not think that siglent sds1104 is the big difference, if I needed to analyze FFT I would acquire a spectrum analyzer, I bought it a few months ago, and I gave account that everyone recommends with money from others, if you have 400 of recommend for 800 and so it is always, buy what you need, if you serve the siglent, rigol, etc. you only know the use you are going to give.

P.S. do not forget that there are many people who are, I do not know why, I had a little problem, and the Chinese, put good will until the problem was solved, a month after being corrected I received an email if I had been satisfied.

in spanish
hola, yo tengo un ds1054z, totalmente liberado, realmente estoy muy concoforme por u$s 330. no creo que siglent  sds1104 sea la gran diferencia, si  yo precisara analidar FFT adquiriria un analizador de espectro, lo compre hase unos meses, y me di cuenta que todos recomiendan con dinero ajeno, si tenes 400 de recomiendan por 800 y asi es siempre, compra lo que precises, si te sirve el siglent, rigol, etc. vos solo sabes el uso que vas dar.

PD. no te olvides que hay mucha gente que esta encontra, no se porque, yo tuve un problemita, y los chinos, pusieron buena voluntad hasta  que se soluciono el problema, un mes despues de corregido recibi un correo de si habia quedado satisfecho.
 

Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2018, 01:02:58 am »
One other question: I read somebody comment somewhere that supposedly the Siglent probes with the 1104X-E are better than the Rigol probes with the 1054Z.

Is this true? Obviously good probe quality helps make up the difference in cost.

Thanks,
Josh
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2018, 01:11:26 am »
Consider the Siglent as a base 'platform' for the other functionality it has. Sure vs the Rigol it offers better performance but what else it's capable of can be worth the extra $ when/if you get to need it.
Say you want a 25 MHz AWG, or WiFi, or 16ch MSO, it's the base platform to support those capabilities.

Only you can make that decision.

TBH your response makes me feel pretty comfortable keeping the Rigol. You're talking about spending $170 extra for the scope, then spending about $400 more for the wifi and awg with the software for them. That's $900 instead of the $330 I invested in the Rigol.

In most cases I'll be using single channel, so the better performance won't exist outside of the FFT that I'm still not sure I'm going to use.

I appreciate the sales pitch though.  ;)

Thanks,
Josh
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2018, 02:55:15 am »
No sales pitch Josh, just hard facts !

OK so the WIfi is not for everybody and you might never want/need it.
The AWG and 16ch MSO are another matter IF you ever have the need for either. Instead of needing to purchase other standalone products you can add this functionality and again if/when required and without sacrificing little in the way of precious bench space.
None of this may mean much to your use case however it does to others.

A customer not long after these 4ch X-E were released inquired about a budget 4ch DSO and AWG. As he had some previous electronic experience and was just getting back into it, after considering the cost of two items against a single package plus options, guess which one he took ?
Each have different needs.
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2018, 02:59:23 am »
It should be noted that the extra's you mention are fairly expensive. I don't think the AWG that's supposed to go with the oscilloscopes makes much sense considering what it costs compared to discrete AWGs.
 
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Offline cprosser

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2018, 04:23:13 am »
I have the Siglent 1104x-e. I got it mainly because I putter with mixed signal work, and I wanted the Web UI so if my back was bothering I could use it from my computer.

But given what you do, I think the Rigol sounds like a great tool for you. 

If you ever need a logic analyzer, you can pick up an 8 channel one off amazon for $10 and use it with sigrok.
 
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Offline bugi

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2018, 10:17:13 am »
It should be noted that the extra's you mention are fairly expensive. I don't think the AWG that's supposed to go with the oscilloscopes makes much sense considering what it costs compared to discrete AWGs.
This is what I have been wondering, too. In most cases that I have read through (i.e. not on the expensive end of scopes), many of the options are often very simple implementations and even less capable than what a separate $50 item could do (excluding display, power supply and memory costs for fairer comparison, since on the scopes those "come free" already), yet the scope vendors happily charge hundreds for them.

Even more weird is how basically the same option will cost e.g. $250 on one scope series, and $750 on another, latter apparently simply because the base scope was already $6000. Considering that for the simpler options the likely cost for the manufacturer (including amortized design/engineering costs) would be closer to $20, I'd simply make many of those features to be included in the base price on the higher-end devices.

Well, I guess it is not stupid to ask for high price, but stupid to pay it :P

There could be buyers or use cases where buying those relatively expensive options is still beneficial. But there would be much much more of such cases if they were priced in a sensible level. But maybe that would then cut the sales of the manufacturer's separate devices (which definitely do not sell at $50, but at least they'd have more of features, bells and whistles to justify the price levels).

Personally, I waited for a campaign where all the options were included in the base price (tells something about the manufacturer's real costs and profit margins), but it is not guaranteed that such bargains happen in a reasonable time frame, or even ever again (at least for particular scope series).


On the original topic, I'd try to get more information on the general usability on the more commonly used features (the ones you use "all the time"). E.g. something as simple as triggers.  On the paper they might have a fancy set of triggers, but in reality, 80% will not be of any use (for a particular user), and the remaining ones should work without issues and be easily adjustable. E.g. on my Siglent, I bumped about every few hours of using it to a case where the trigger simply didn't trigger when it should, and I needed to spend few minutes to figure out settings and workarounds to get some kind of useful triggering to happen. Granted, the issues tend to happen in somewhat "tough" situation, but still, looking at the display, it _should_ have had plenty enough good data to have triggered. I'd gladly trade 20% of FFT goodness to better triggering :P

(Note: I haven't yet tested that trigger problem (or actually any of the issues I have wrote down) with the latest firmware, so.. there is a small chance it has been improved/fixed.)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 10:21:04 am by bugi »
 
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2018, 11:11:45 am »
E.g. on my Siglent, I bumped about every few hours of using it to a case where the trigger simply didn't trigger when it should, and I needed to spend few minutes to figure out settings and workarounds to get some kind of useful triggering to happen. Granted, the issues tend to happen in somewhat "tough" situation, but still, looking at the display, it _should_ have had plenty enough good data to have triggered.

Can you explain this situation with some detailed documents about real signal and test setup etc and including scope model and FW also.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2018, 11:36:28 am »
Personally, I waited for a campaign where all the options were included in the base price (tells something about the manufacturer's real costs and profit margins), but it is not guaranteed that such bargains happen in a reasonable time frame, or even ever again (at least for particular scope series).

Out of curiosity, which scope did you go with?
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2018, 11:49:39 am »
No sales pitch Josh, just hard facts !

OK so the WIfi is not for everybody and you might never want/need it.
The AWG and 16ch MSO are another matter IF you ever have the need for either. Instead of needing to purchase other standalone products you can add this functionality and again if/when required and without sacrificing little in the way of precious bench space.
None of this may mean much to your use case however it does to others.

I was just teasing you. ;)

BTW- I didn't include the MSO in that $900 price. That's even more $$$.

For my needs, I'm using a Tenma 72-505 audio generator that I got from Newark for $34. It produces clean waveforms, and it's battery powered so it's floated and I don't have to worry about ground loops. If I ever need a pulse signal, I bought a signal generator app on Windows for $2.49 that also produces clean waveforms through my USB soundcard.
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Offline bugi

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2018, 03:52:01 pm »
E.g. on my Siglent, I bumped about every few hours of using it to a case where the trigger simply didn't trigger when it should, and I needed to spend few minutes to figure out settings and workarounds to get some kind of useful triggering to happen. Granted, the issues tend to happen in somewhat "tough" situation, but still, looking at the display, it _should_ have had plenty enough good data to have triggered.

Can you explain this situation with some detailed documents about real signal and test setup etc and including scope model and FW also.
Once I get the time to retest the issues I have seen previously, but now on the latest firmware, I'll certainly provide the info about any remaining issues. I tried to write down them as well as I could at the time, exactly for this purpose. (But don't hold breath, it is the last day of my summer vacation, and who knows what kind of pile is waiting at work tomorrow...)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 04:16:50 pm by bugi »
 

Offline bugi

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2018, 04:14:24 pm »
Personally, I waited for a campaign where all the options were included in the base price (tells something about the manufacturer's real costs and profit margins), but it is not guaranteed that such bargains happen in a reasonable time frame, or even ever again (at least for particular scope series).

Out of curiosity, which scope did you go with?
Siglent SDS2304X. That is, not one of these nice new entry-level choices, don't even remember if either or both were available at the time.

I think I need to clarify that I did not wait for that specific campaign/bundle (I didn't even know what or if anything would be coming). I just waited for something of a bargain, e.g. a pure discount could have been used to buy at least some of the options (with "saved" money), and in my case it happened to result with the mentioned bundle. During that campaign the lower bandwidth variants got a bandwidth increase to next higher bw variant instead.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 07:58:20 pm by bugi »
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2018, 07:25:20 pm »
Does anybody have any opinions on the probes that come with the two units?

Does anybody think there's a different model I should be considering?
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2018, 08:25:34 pm »
Does anybody have any opinions on the probes that come with the two units?

Does anybody think there's a different model I should be considering?
The GW Instek GDS-1054B is cheap and it can be hacked through software to get decoding. The firmware of this oscilloscope is mature so it will work as advertised. The Siglent is likely to be 'work in progress' so you should really check the relevant threads to see if any of the outstanding issues affects your use case.
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2018, 08:38:24 pm »
No sales pitch Josh, just hard facts !

OK so the WIfi is not for everybody and you might never want/need it.
The AWG and 16ch MSO are another matter IF you ever have the need for either. Instead of needing to purchase other standalone products you can add this functionality and again if/when required and without sacrificing little in the way of precious bench space.
None of this may mean much to your use case however it does to others.

I was just teasing you. ;)

BTW- I didn't include the MSO in that $900 price. That's even more $$$.

For my needs, I'm using a Tenma 72-505 audio generator that I got from Newark for $34. It produces clean waveforms, and it's battery powered so it's floated and I don't have to worry about ground loops. If I ever need a pulse signal, I bought a signal generator app on Windows for $2.49 that also produces clean waveforms through my USB soundcard.
Tease if you must but it appears you haven't done as much research as you could have.
In this thread are the comparison between probes:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665

If you really want to get a handle on these 4ch X-E's start studying that thread in full and you'll likely end up in this tread where additional specs and capabilities are explored where you can see why the additional cost of SDS1104X-E can return a DSO that will better meet the needs of a user as their experience grows.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/

We do this stuff as many don't seem to be able to get to grips with datasheets and understand the advanced capabilities the 4ch X-E's offer to the entry level marketplace.
I won't go on as everything you need to know is in the 2 threads linked above.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2018, 09:32:44 pm »
Tease if you must but it appears you haven't done as much research as you could have.
In this thread are the comparison between probes:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665

If you really want to get a handle on these 4ch X-E's start studying that thread in full and you'll likely end up in this tread where additional specs and capabilities are explored where you can see why the additional cost of SDS1104X-E can return a DSO that will better meet the needs of a user as their experience grows.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/

We do this stuff as many don't seem to be able to get to grips with datasheets and understand the advanced capabilities the 4ch X-E's offer to the entry level marketplace.
I won't go on as everything you need to know is in the 2 threads linked above.

That thread doesn't compare the Rigol probes to the Siglent probes. It's nice that the Siglent probes perform well compared to others, but it doesn't tell me anything about what I asked.

Datasheets are great, but they also don't tell me about real world experience. That's what forums like this are for. When I asked for opinions of what might be better for MY USE - primarily tube guitar amps - then that's what I'd like to hear opinions about.

No offense, but I would prefer some less biased opinions be voiced.
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Offline tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2018, 10:15:37 pm »
No offense, but I would prefer some less biased opinions be voiced.

No offense but, with comments like this last msg, the only opinions you'll be hearing are your own. You asked for opinions and people give them for free, you choose the ones that interest you. No reason to criticise/attack them. If you have a prebuit decision-tree or a choice-matrix then you better "insert coin".
 

Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2018, 10:19:59 pm »
No offense but, with comments like this last msg, the only opinions you'll be hearing are your own. You asked for opinions and people give them for free, you choose the ones that interest you. No reason to criticise/attack them. If you have a prebuit decision-tree or a choice-matrix then you better "insert coin".

Sorry, but I get frustrated when I'm trying to get information and a clearly biased representative for a company starts info dumping and selling a product, without actually reading my question, or producing relevant information.

I thought I'd be able to find unbiased, experienced, and useful opinions here, but maybe not if all I'm going to get is attitude and sales pitches.  :wtf:
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2018, 10:32:26 pm »
Tease if you must but it appears you haven't done as much research as you could have.
In this thread are the comparison between probes:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665

If you really want to get a handle on these 4ch X-E's start studying that thread in full and you'll likely end up in this tread where additional specs and capabilities are explored where you can see why the additional cost of SDS1104X-E can return a DSO that will better meet the needs of a user as their experience grows.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/

We do this stuff as many don't seem to be able to get to grips with datasheets and understand the advanced capabilities the 4ch X-E's offer to the entry level marketplace.
I won't go on as everything you need to know is in the 2 threads linked above.

That thread doesn't compare the Rigol probes to the Siglent probes. It's nice that the Siglent probes perform well compared to others, but it doesn't tell me anything about what I asked.
OK, sorry I've led you off on a tangent.
WRT the probes for each, some have had bad experiences with the grabbers not staying on and I have too with Siglent ones but it's more likely user error from not pressing them home properly so they won't fall off.

Anyways, probes need be considered as consumables and should not be a major factor in deciding which scope to buy, at least in this price bracket. Most likely entry level probes are sourced from the same 3rd party supplier for both Rigol and Siglent.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2018, 10:35:53 pm »
Anyways, probes need be considered as consumables and should not be a major factor in deciding which scope to buy, at least in this price bracket. Most likely entry level probes are sourced from the same 3rd party supplier for both Rigol and Siglent.

Thanks, that's good advice, I hadn't thought of it that way. Is there a particular probe model you like?

Thanks,
Josh
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2018, 11:11:10 pm »
Anyways, probes need be considered as consumables and should not be a major factor in deciding which scope to buy, at least in this price bracket. Most likely entry level probes are sourced from the same 3rd party supplier for both Rigol and Siglent.

Thanks, that's good advice, I hadn't thought of it that way. Is there a particular probe model you like?

Thanks,
Josh
In this price bracket and relatively low BW they're all much of a muchness but each are selected as best for a particular model DSO. The post I linked before demonstrates this.
Most like fixed attenuation probes, they can be smaller and more pleasant to use but again there can be issues with insufficient sensitivity using only 10x probes and also accuracy if the lowest input attenuation settings of a DSO are just a magnification of some higher vertical input setting.

For what most do with a scope anything reasonable can be fine, even the amazingly cheap P6100's from eBay.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2018, 08:35:29 am »
I thought I'd be able to find unbiased, experienced, and useful opinions here

Nope. Mostly religion and Siglent dealers posting here.

For about three years the Rigol was way out on it's own in terms of bang/buck.

Now the Siglent has arrived, Rigol finally has a competitor but it's also about 40% more money. The price difference tells you everything you really need to know.

Me? I say two things:
a) Four channels good, two channels bad.
b) The difference between owning an oscilloscope/not owning an oscilloscope is like night and day. The difference between Rigol and Siglent? Nowhere near as much. Sure, the Siglent is nicer, but for for the same price you can have a Rigol plus a decent soldering iron or power supply and a couple of ANENG multimeters. If you're just starting out then that seems a better deal, a decent soldering iron or power supply will make a much bigger difference to your life than owning a Siglent will.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 09:03:31 am by Fungus »
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2018, 11:55:51 am »
I thought I'd be able to find unbiased, experienced, and useful opinions here

Nope. Mostly religion and Siglent dealers posting here.

For about three years the Rigol was way out on it's own in terms of bang/buck.

Now the Siglent has arrived, Rigol finally has a competitor but it's also about 40% more money. The price difference tells you everything you really need to know.

Me? I say two things:
a) Four channels good, two channels bad.
b) The difference between owning an oscilloscope/not owning an oscilloscope is like night and day. The difference between Rigol and Siglent? Nowhere near as much. Sure, the Siglent is nicer, but for for the same price you can have a Rigol plus a decent soldering iron or power supply and a couple of ANENG multimeters. If you're just starting out then that seems a better deal, a decent soldering iron or power supply will make a much bigger difference to your life than owning a Siglent will.

Can we talk about politics too? ;)

I'm not starting out, I've had a bench setup for a couple decades, but put off buying a scope because I didn't need one right away and then didn't know what to get, and didn't want an old school scope (which is all I really need, but I like newer tech). These days I have an Aoyue 2703A+ iron, and it's great. Toroid ISB-060W isolation transformer, a Tekpower TP3005P power supply, and lots of other little test equipment for my needs. So it really comes down to what scope will suit me without being wasteful.

I recently bought the DS1054Z and a Tenma 72-505 audio generator (the Tenma is great, and all I need for guitar amp testing). My question is whether the Siglent will really benefit me enough that I should return the Rigol and pay more for the Siglent. So far the only 2 real world benefits I see for my uses are 1. it looks prettier (I like the simplicity of the layout) and 2. the web interface is cool (even though I probably won't ever use it much if at all). The better multi-channel sampling rate is an obvious plus, but where I'm mostly using 1 channel at a time, I won't normally benefit enough for the investment for that alone. I'm certainly not going to invest in the Siglent add-ons, at that point I'd rather invest in another scope.

Thanks,
Josh

« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 02:30:40 pm by KungFuJosh »
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Offline Old Printer

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2018, 12:41:21 pm »
I read a lot about tube amps, I have a Vibrolux Reverb and a Vibro Champ that I bought new in the early 70's and after spending much of their life in the closet they are in need of recapping. Most of the old school amp guys feel a basic analog scope of 20Mhz is all that is needed for valve amp work. I am sure that goes out the window when you switch to solid state and digital effects. I have a couple old Tektronix scopes, but have heard from several places that off-brands like Leader and Iwatsu can be better values. If you have said you already have one of these I missed it.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2018, 12:48:51 pm »
I recently bought the DS1054Z and a Tenma 72-505 audio generator (the Tenma is great, and all I need for guitar amp testing). My question is whether the Siglent will really benefit me enough that I should return the Rigol and pay more for the Siglent. So far the only 2 real world benefits I see for my uses are 1. it looks prettier (I like the simplicity of the layout) and 2. the web interface is cool (even though I probably won't ever use much if at all). The better multi-channel sampling rate is an obvious plus, but where I'm mostly using 1 channel at a time, I won't normally benefit enough for the investment for that alone. I'm certainly not going to invest in the Siglent add-ons, at that point I'd rather invest in another scope.

The "better multi-channel sampling rate" won't make any difference at all at guitar amp frequencies.

You might be better off with a better FFT than the Rigol's (do you ever do FFTs?) but neither will compete with a Bode Plot done by a simple PC sound card.

So, no. Stick with the Rigol if you already have it (IMHO).
 
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Offline BillB

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2018, 02:20:23 pm »
I've got an SDS1104X, fully hacked, and it is a great scope.  I've also got the Logic Analyzer even after Tautech tried to talk me out of getting it!  (He's not just a Siglent salesman  ;) - I think he offers a lot of fair and valuable input)   But, frankly, it sounds like overkill for your needs.  The $170 difference would only seem to make sense if you were going to seriously explore or expand your use case.  I'm not even sure why you would buy a 4 channel scope?     
 
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Offline SMB784

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2018, 03:28:33 pm »
I thought I'd be able to find unbiased, experienced, and useful opinions here

Nope. Mostly religion and Siglent dealers posting here.

For about three years the Rigol was way out on it's own in terms of bang/buck.

Now the Siglent has arrived, Rigol finally has a competitor but it's also about 40% more money. The price difference tells you everything you really need to know.

Me? I say two things:
a) Four channels good, two channels bad.
b) The difference between owning an oscilloscope/not owning an oscilloscope is like night and day. The difference between Rigol and Siglent? Nowhere near as much. Sure, the Siglent is nicer, but for for the same price you can have a Rigol plus a decent soldering iron or power supply and a couple of ANENG multimeters. If you're just starting out then that seems a better deal, a decent soldering iron or power supply will make a much bigger difference to your life than owning a Siglent will.

Can we talk about politics too? ;)

I'm not starting out, I've had a bench setup for a couple decades, but put off buying a scope because I didn't need one right away and then didn't know what to get, and didn't want an old school scope (which is all I really need, but I like newer tech). These days I have an Aoyue 2703A+ iron, and it's great. Toroid ISB-060W isolation transformer, a Tekpower TP3005P power supply, and lots of other little test equipment for my needs. So it really comes down to what scope will suit me without being wasteful.

I recently bought the DS1054Z and a Tenma 72-505 audio generator (the Tenma is great, and all I need for guitar amp testing). My question is whether the Siglent will really benefit me enough that I should return the Rigol and pay more for the Siglent. So far the only 2 real world benefits I see for my uses are 1. it looks prettier (I like the simplicity of the layout) and 2. the web interface is cool (even though I probably won't ever use it much if at all). The better multi-channel sampling rate is an obvious plus, but where I'm mostly using 1 channel at a time, I won't normally benefit enough for the investment for that alone. I'm certainly not going to invest in the Siglent add-ons, at that point I'd rather invest in another scope.

Thanks,
Josh

I concur with Fungus on this subject, if you're looking for a simply great deal for starting an electronics hobby, go with the Rigol and a bundle of other goodies to get you going.  Your money is definitely better spent that way if you are starting out.

Having owned both the Rigol DS1054Z and the Siglent SDS1104X-E I can safely say that they are both great scopes and an amazing deal.  The Siglent definitely has the edge at the moment when it comes to specs, and in my own opinion the Siglent price/performance is superior to the Rigol.  However, for a lower frequency application like audio stuff I would say that the performance is about the same, and the price point definitely makes the Rigol the more compelling option.

So, if you are planning to use the scope primarily (and perhaps only) for your stated application, I would say the Rigol is the better option and you probably wont see any added benefit from spending more money.  However, if you ever want to do something at higher frequencies, the higher bandwidth ceiling, better sampling per channel, higher WFM updates per second, and better memory per channel will be a tremendous boon to your bench.
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2018, 03:40:37 pm »
Having owned both the Rigol DS1054Z and the Siglent SDS1104X-E I can safely say that they are both great scopes and an amazing deal.  The Siglent definitely has the edge at the moment when it comes to specs, and in my own opinion the Siglent price/performance is superior to the Rigol.  However, for a lower frequency application like audio stuff I would say that the performance is about the same, and the price point definitely makes the Rigol the more compelling option.

So, if you are planning to use the scope primarily (and perhaps only) for your stated application, I would say the Rigol is the better option and you probably wont see any added benefit from spending more money.  However, if you ever want to do something at higher frequencies, the higher bandwidth ceiling, better sampling per channel, higher WFM updates per second, and better memory per channel will be a tremendous boon to your bench.

Thanks, this is helpful. My interest for this really is limited to guitar amps and music toys. I can't even think of anything I'd be interested in using this for beyond that. For a living I do graphic and web design, with a guitar & amp business on the side. I don't have time to venture into anything else. Maybe I'll eventually read something on this site that will pique my interest into another area and I'll upgrade in the future? Who knows.

Thanks,
Josh
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2018, 05:35:51 pm »
I read a lot about tube amps, I have a Vibrolux Reverb and a Vibro Champ that I bought new in the early 70's and after spending much of their life in the closet they are in need of recapping. Most of the old school amp guys feel a basic analog scope of 20Mhz is all that is needed for valve amp work. I am sure that goes out the window when you switch to solid state and digital effects. I have a couple old Tektronix scopes, but have heard from several places that off-brands like Leader and Iwatsu can be better values. If you have said you already have one of these I missed it.

Yeah, that's what everybody in the industry goes for. Cheap, old school 20Mhz scopes. A fairly well-known amp tech recommends buying a used scope for $100. That's not for me at all. I may never use many of the features of this scope, but I do like some of the extras I've used so far (for example, measuring the input frequency).

What brand caps are you going to use on the amps? I wouldn't recommend buying into the brand hype guitar nuts get addicted too. Use your EE brain and stick with 1 brand of high quality caps per amp unless you really need the vintage aesthetic. ;)

Thanks,
Josh
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2018, 08:27:12 pm »
Just to throw this out there, since I probably don't need 4 channels (yes, I know most of you love 4 channels ;) )  - what do you think about the SDS1202X-E vs the 1054Z for me?

The difference in price will be about $25 more excluding any potential shipping... Should I consider that 2 channel model for an FFT function I might not use, or stick with the Rigol for 4 channels I might not use? I'm such a pain in the ass, I know.  :-DD

Thanks,
Josh
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2018, 08:36:04 pm »
Just to throw this out there, since I probably don't need 4 channels (yes, I know most of you love 4 channels ;) )  - what do you think about the SDS1202X-E vs the 1054Z for me?

The difference in price will be about $25 more excluding any potential shipping... Should I consider that 2 channel model for an FFT function I might not use, or stick with the Rigol for 4 channels I might not use? I'm such a pain in the ass, I know.  :-DD

If we're going down that road you should probably get the GW-Instek - four channels and a better FFT.  :)

Seriously though: A PC sound input will do a much better FFT than the Siglent/Rigol/GW-Instek ever can (a 16 bit ADC will win every time!) but there's no way you can add a couple of extra channels to a 2-channel 'scope.
 
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2018, 08:51:31 pm »
Just to throw this out there, since I probably don't need 4 channels (yes, I know most of you love 4 channels ;) )  - what do you think about the SDS1202X-E vs the 1054Z for me?

The difference in price will be about $25 more excluding any potential shipping... Should I consider that 2 channel model for an FFT function I might not use, or stick with the Rigol for 4 channels I might not use? I'm such a pain in the ass, I know.  :-DD

Thanks,
Josh
Check the comparison chart in the first post here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2018, 09:32:27 pm »
Uh oh. I might have found something useful in the SDS1104X-E's favor. It looks like that can handle 400VDC input according to the datasheet, and the Rigol only 300VDC. Am I reading that right?

Assuming I'm reading that right, that might be useful. Or should I be more interested in a differential scope for that voltage level? A few spots on my amps go above 300, usually not above 350 for most circuits I build. I dunno if I'd ever connect there, but, ya know...or never know.
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2018, 09:39:45 pm »
Uh oh. I might have found something useful in the SDS1104X-E's favor. It looks like that can handle 400VDC input according to the datasheet, and the Rigol only 300VDC. Am I reading that right?

Assuming I'm reading that right, that might be useful. Or should I be more interested in a differential scope for that voltage level? A few spots on my amps go above 300, usually not above 350 for most circuits I build. I dunno if I'd ever connect there, but, ya know...or never know.
The risk is if you should mistakenly use the probe on a 1:1 setting. Hence my mention earlier that some prefer fixed attenuation probes.
However when we go probing HV we should always double, er no...... triple check our setup.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2018, 10:05:37 pm »
The risk is if you should mistakenly use the probe on a 1:1 setting. Hence my mention earlier that some prefer fixed attenuation probes.
However when we go probing HV we should always double, er no...... triple check our setup.

A piece of tape can make a probe fixed attenuation. ;)
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2018, 10:20:19 pm »
Uh oh. I might have found something useful in the SDS1104X-E's favor. It looks like that can handle 400VDC input according to the datasheet, and the Rigol only 300VDC. Am I reading that right?

Yes, but... that's the raw input. You'll normally be using a 10x probe so the input can be up to 3000V.

(and you should be using special probes long before you get that high - the Rigol supplied probes aren't rated for that sort of voltage).

The risk is if you should mistakenly use the probe on a 1:1 setting. Hence my mention earlier that some prefer fixed attenuation probes.

Yep. If you work on anything over 100V it's definitely a good idea to get a couple of fixed 10x probes for daily use to avoid accidents - you hardly ever need the 1x setting anyway (in fact I don't think I've ever used it).


« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 11:02:18 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2018, 10:23:42 pm »
when we go probing HV we should always double, er no...... triple check our setup.

A piece of tape can make a probe fixed attenuation. ;)

Or some hot glue.

 
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2018, 10:37:19 pm »
The risk is if you should mistakenly use the probe on a 1:1 setting. Hence my mention earlier that some prefer fixed attenuation probes.
However when we go probing HV we should always double, er no...... triple check our setup.

A piece of tape can make a probe fixed attenuation. ;)
Rather, for the instrument and my safety I use a 100:1 probe on anything over ~150V.
Remember most switchable probes in 1:1 mode are only rated to 300V and normally to 600V in 10:1 mode.

I prefer a higher safety margin especially when probing high energy sources like something that controls mains power.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2018, 12:24:26 am »
Cool, so the probes handle the voltage, and I don't need to worry about the input voltage in 10:1 or 100:1 as long as I'm within spec of the probes. That's what I originally thought, but I read some comments while researching the Instek as an alternative and somebody commented about that and the Rigol both only having 300V inputs, and that threw me off. Oops.  |O

I ordered a couple Pico TA131 probes. I'm not opposed to super-glueing and taping the switches to be safe.

Any recommendations on a 100:1 probe?
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2018, 12:53:56 am »

Any recommendations on a 100:1 probe?
None in particular.
They need to be able to compensate to cover the input capacitance of the scope inputs and you would be wise to at least get scope BW or better.
You won't need to spend much as I've seen them for under $40 and you don't need the flashiest for audio work.
Just check they come with a ground spring and tip sleeves in the accessories pack.
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Offline GregDunn

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2018, 01:46:07 am »
Just to throw this out there, since I probably don't need 4 channels (yes, I know most of you love 4 channels ;) )  - what do you think about the SDS1202X-E vs the 1054Z for me?

I used a 15 MHz Tek scope for decades on audio gear - it's far higher bandwidth than you should ever need for audio.  Even the PWM frequencies of Class D amps are far below the BW limit on these older scopes.

But speaking of audio and high power amps: if you ever plan to work on a bridge mode amp and verify the output, there's three channels used up right away (input plus 2 channels in math difference mode to measure the output) plus any other signal that you're trying to track down during troubleshooting.  I never really thought about a 4 channel scope before, and now I use 2-3 channels at a time for pretty much everything.  I know not everyone goes down this path, but I'd never cut corners on a piece of test gear; sometimes that upgrade becomes very desirable once you start using the equipment and recognize its potential use.
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2018, 02:15:30 am »
Any opinions on these scopes?:

Cal Test CT2707
BK Precision PR100A
TPI P250R

They all spec about the same, but I dunno how they test in real life.

Thanks,
Josh
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2018, 02:49:42 am »
Any opinions on these scopes?:

Cal Test CT2707
BK Precision PR100A
TPI P250R

They all spec about the same, but I dunno how they test in real life.

Thanks,
Josh
Any will be fine and they're all probably from the same maker.

Now which would I buy and why ?
The red one.

Got a couple of 100x probes in my probe bag and guess which one is easiest to find ?
When connected to a scope, guess which one is seen at a glance to identify what could be an HV connection ?

My 2c.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2018, 02:51:32 am »
Any will be fine and they're all probably from the same maker.

Now which would I buy and why ?
The red one.

Got a couple of 100x probes in my probe bag and guess which one is easiest to find ?
When connected to a scope, guess which one is seen at a glance to identify what could be an HV connection ?

My 2c.

That's exactly what I was thinking! I like the red one. :-DD
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2018, 02:54:17 am »
Any will be fine and they're all probably from the same maker.

Now which would I buy and why ?
The red one.

Got a couple of 100x probes in my probe bag and guess which one is easiest to find ?
When connected to a scope, guess which one is seen at a glance to identify what could be an HV connection ?

My 2c.

That's exactly what I was thinking! I like the red one. :-DD
Some things are really simple, right ?  ;D
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2018, 10:30:20 pm »
I hate to admit it, but I think the Siglent SDS1104X-E might be winning me over. I've been watching too many of Dave's videos and I've heard him say a couple times now about the shared 1G not being enough for 4 channels at 100Mhz...and prior to seeing any of this, I was told to find a minimum of 400M per channel, so if I believe that I'll ever do more than 2 channels...I may have the excuse I need. ;)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 10:55:37 pm by KungFuJosh »
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2018, 01:41:44 am »
I hate to admit it, but I think the Siglent SDS1104X-E might be winning me over. I've been watching too many of Dave's videos and I've heard him say a couple times now about the shared 1G not being enough for 4 channels at 100Mhz...and prior to seeing any of this, I was told to find a minimum of 400M per channel, so if I believe that I'll ever do more than 2 channels...I may have the excuse I need. ;)
Only if you plan to use 4 chanels at 100MHz BW signal. If using 2 channels the rigol has 500MSa/s which should be enough for a 100MHz signal, so still useful there but only using 2 channels. While the siglent using 2 channels you can get 1GSa/s, and using only one channel both 1GSa/s.

I went for the Rigol because was waaay cheaper to get for me, I would have to pay twice to get the Signlent, as shipping rates from stores where it was available to ship to me were way higher, like 3 times what I payed for the Rigol shipping. YMMV here, so with a closer price the fight is open. Then there are a few other differences, the bode plotting looks great, probably better with a dedicated signal generator than the optional one for the scope, but still not great as it has many limitations. The ability to add the logic analyzer later is a nice one too, for having a MSO as the time comes, and money and needs agreed on this, but is an expensive option to have a logic analyzer compared to many other out there, and going to the PC as usual as I do I can mix them there (analog and digital) for the time where it's needed)

JS
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2018, 02:05:21 am »
Only if you plan to use 4 chanels at 100MHz BW signal. If using 2 channels the rigol has 500MSa/s which should be enough for a 100MHz signal, so still useful there but only using 2 channels. While the siglent using 2 channels you can get 1GSa/s, and using only one channel both 1GSa/s.

I went for the Rigol because was waaay cheaper to get for me, I would have to pay twice to get the Signlent, as shipping rates from stores where it was available to ship to me were way higher, like 3 times what I payed for the Rigol shipping. YMMV here, so with a closer price the fight is open. Then there are a few other differences, the bode plotting looks great, probably better with a dedicated signal generator than the optional one for the scope, but still not great as it has many limitations. The ability to add the logic analyzer later is a nice one too, for having a MSO as the time comes, and money and needs agreed on this, but is an expensive option to have a logic analyzer compared to many other out there, and going to the PC as usual as I do I can mix them there (analog and digital) for the time where it's needed)

JS

For my current needs, they're both overkill. The issue is that people keep giving me ideas of how I might use them, and some of them sound reasonable. For me, the difference in price will be about $140 between the two units, and I get free shipping.

In all honesty, being the tech/computer type that I am, it bothers me to pay for an old computer. From that perspective, and for an extra $140 I get a newer computer with 1M FFT, double the multi-channel sampling, built-in web server, 400VDC input, and the POTENTIAL for other crap I probably won't use. I probably won't ever use the logic input, but it's there. I dunno if I'd ever shell out any cash for their AWG addon, but the option is there.

And even though I don't care at all about the WiFi module, I'm interested in it for one reason: the TP-Link adapter model (TL-WN725N) that Siglent charges $70 for is available for $10 or less, and I'm curious if I could get the cheap one to work. I dunno if anybody has tried or not, I haven't looked yet.

Thanks,
Josh
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2018, 02:23:19 am »

And even though I don't care at all about the WiFi module, I'm interested in it for one reason: the TP-Link adapter model (TL-WN725N) that Siglent charges $70 for is available for $10 or less, and I'm curious if I could get the cheap one to work. I dunno if anybody has tried or not, I haven't looked yet.

Thanks,
Josh
They work for sure ! I got the gold versions very early on and they are the right version. Latest FW indicates additional versions have been added, maybe the bit cheaper silver version but TBH I don't know for sure.

Should you ever want to pop the display onto a wireless device this option is excellent for this. My iPhone 4S is a little too old to work with it but later ones do. It's also great for grabbing screenshots on a remote laptop or tablet where you can then shift them on without even needing a USB stick.

Others have worked around using the USB WiFi dongle by adding a LAN to WiFi module and powering it from the rear USB. Still the WiFi dongle is the neatest solution IMHO. There is however a PSK character # restriction currently that's been bought to Siglents attention so hopefully the next batch of FW will allow for a longer PSK.
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #51 on: August 24, 2018, 02:43:00 am »
Only if you plan to use 4 chanels at 100MHz BW signal. If using 2 channels the rigol has 500MSa/s which should be enough for a 100MHz signal, so still useful there but only using 2 channels. While the siglent using 2 channels you can get 1GSa/s, and using only one channel both 1GSa/s.

I went for the Rigol because was waaay cheaper to get for me, I would have to pay twice to get the Signlent, as shipping rates from stores where it was available to ship to me were way higher, like 3 times what I payed for the Rigol shipping. YMMV here, so with a closer price the fight is open. Then there are a few other differences, the bode plotting looks great, probably better with a dedicated signal generator than the optional one for the scope, but still not great as it has many limitations. The ability to add the logic analyzer later is a nice one too, for having a MSO as the time comes, and money and needs agreed on this, but is an expensive option to have a logic analyzer compared to many other out there, and going to the PC as usual as I do I can mix them there (analog and digital) for the time where it's needed)

JS

For my current needs, they're both overkill. The issue is that people keep giving me ideas of how I might use them, and some of them sound reasonable. For me, the difference in price will be about $140 between the two units, and I get free shipping.

In all honesty, being the tech/computer type that I am, it bothers me to pay for an old computer. From that perspective, and for an extra $140 I get a newer computer with 1M FFT, double the multi-channel sampling, built-in web server, 400VDC input, and the POTENTIAL for other crap I probably won't use. I probably won't ever use the logic input, but it's there. I dunno if I'd ever shell out any cash for their AWG addon, but the option is there.

And even though I don't care at all about the WiFi module, I'm interested in it for one reason: the TP-Link adapter model (TL-WN725N) that Siglent charges $70 for is available for $10 or less, and I'm curious if I could get the cheap one to work. I dunno if anybody has tried or not, I haven't looked yet.

Thanks,
Josh
  I see what you say about buying old gear, but note that the ADC/ASIC is not any newer on the siglent, just has two of them.

  1M FFT is nice, I won't go against that, but I process so much data on the PC that that doesn't bother me, I just pick the data from matlab or something like that directly over lan or USB, and then I have a 24M FFT.
  Same thing with the web server, much better than a crappy app that runs only on windows which I don't use, but as I say, I take the data directly from the software I process, not the app, web server or any other way basically.
  The options are all SW+HW, so you need to get both, the TP-link will probably work but you need the SW option to go with it, I don't know if there are walkarounds the options, if there aren't they will eventually. The AWG gen isn't that great, compared to a dedicated AWG and the price difference (those $140 will cover that difference) but the ease of use with a siglent AWG and the signlent scope I belive is not there with the Rigol. Again solved with little work if connected to the network, being a PC guy that shouldn't be so harsh. Also, I can see the use of the optional AWG in the field, if you need to go out with both, the optional AWG fits in a pocket of the scope's bag.

  I think dave said it while looking at the Siglent, is a tight match, it has quite a few extra features but nothing game changing, and the price is a bit higher but not too much to not consider it. It does depends on your needs, your pocket and your future planning, you might be better putting those $140 there or you might be better putting those on some extra gear, for me the difference was twice as much so I didn't even considered twice, after looking for quite a while I couldn't get the Siglent delivered under $700+ or something like that, cheapest shipping was $200 and wasn't the cheapest seller for the scope to start with and got the rigol as listed with $70 shipping. That, on top that I've just finished the university so I'm rigging up the lab completly, I got a 121GW, as a logging DMM that I needed, I need to get some lab PSU and signal generator, a truck of different probes for the scope as I work with audio (low noise, low level signals) and industrial (not so low nothing) plus current probes, etc. so I knew I better saved the bux for the other stuff as well.

JS
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #52 on: August 24, 2018, 02:50:29 am »
<snipped>
a truck of different probes for the scope as I work with audio (low noise, low level signals) and industrial (not so low nothing) plus current probes, etc. so I knew I better saved the bux for the other stuff as well.
So you missed the X-E spec of full BW 500uV/div range and not some multiplication/magnification of 5mV/div ?

Use a 1x probe on sensitive circuits and you'll see why this matters to some.
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #53 on: August 24, 2018, 04:46:32 am »
<snipped>
a truck of different probes for the scope as I work with audio (low noise, low level signals) and industrial (not so low nothing) plus current probes, etc. so I knew I better saved the bux for the other stuff as well.
So you missed the X-E spec of full BW 500uV/div range and not some multiplication/magnification of 5mV/div ?

Use a 1x probe on sensitive circuits and you'll see why this matters to some.

I wish I have it, yes, I can't live without it, meh, would I pay $350 for that difference, hell no!

Audio circuits aren't as sensitive for 1M and a few pf load, so X1 probes are fine, even more in the low level signals where impedances are even lower than usual. Then, as all signals lives within reasonable rails and are low bandwidth building a low noise amplifier for those is a breeze. I haven't come across the need quite yet but I know I can, but I have options there.

There are many many differences between the two... Update rate, record mode/segmented memory, CAN/LIN decoders, are some I haven't seen in this thread.

Don't get me wrong, if I could have gotten it for a reasonable prize difference I'd probably had gone for the Siglent, but only then is a tight choice. Now, if the Rigol is already overkill for his needs justifying the extra $$ is hard, even if you have it always can go to a different corner of the lab, as soon as he gets the scope he will see the need for a signal generator, or something else. In my case, I do get a few jobs I need to bring into the lab and there's when it comes to use, when will I need the difference between one and the other I don't know, but at some point I will, I hope I will be able to justify some higher model by that point so I make a bigger jump.

JS
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #54 on: August 24, 2018, 05:20:40 am »
<snipped>
a truck of different probes for the scope as I work with audio (low noise, low level signals) and industrial (not so low nothing) plus current probes, etc. so I knew I better saved the bux for the other stuff as well.
So you missed the X-E spec of full BW 500uV/div range and not some multiplication/magnification of 5mV/div ?

Use a 1x probe on sensitive circuits and you'll see why this matters to some.

I wish I have it, yes, I can't live without it, meh, would I pay $350 for that difference, hell no!

Audio circuits aren't as sensitive for 1M and a few pf load, so X1 probes are fine, even more in the low level signals where impedances are even lower than usual. Then, as all signals lives within reasonable rails and are low bandwidth building a low noise amplifier for those is a breeze. I haven't come across the need quite yet but I know I can, but I have options there.
Good you can see the differences and know if they'll matter to you.  :-+

Quote
There are many many differences between the two... Update rate, record mode/segmented memory, CAN/LIN decoders, are some I haven't seen in this thread.
All visible in datasheets.  ;)

Quote
Don't get me wrong, if I could have gotten it for a reasonable prize difference I'd probably had gone for the Siglent, but only then is a tight choice. Now, if the Rigol is already overkill for his needs justifying the extra $$ is hard, even if you have it always can go to a different corner of the lab, as soon as he gets the scope he will see the need for a signal generator, or something else. In my case, I do get a few jobs I need to bring into the lab and there's when it comes to use, when will I need the difference between one and the other I don't know, but at some point I will, I hope I will be able to justify some higher model by that point so I make a bigger jump.

JS
Yeah that was the killer for you.......all up price with freight.
Shame your local Siglent guys weren't a bit more competitive.   :-//
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #55 on: August 24, 2018, 05:48:22 am »


Good you can see the differences and know if they'll matter to you.  :-+
Yes, I know many people can't get their heads around the scope but I got it quite fast years ago, I was waiting to have my own for long enough, but I've used many at the university, from some old nice tek to some of the cheapest LeCroy out there, seriously crappy, a slug drawing on a big board would beat their response.

Worth to mention I have unlocked the 500uV/div of the Rigol and is only of any use with high averaging, noise chews 2 div in a single capture.
Quote
All visible in datasheets.  ;)
Yes, rigol doesn't even mention the 500uV/div anywhere, they can't sell that but I don't know why they don't include it already in the free pack, as I said with some long averaging might let you see something you can't otherwise. Anyway is not nice. Down to 2mV/div seems to do a reasonable job, 1mV is pretty noisy already.
Quote
Yeah that was the killer for you.......all up price with freight.
Shame your local Siglent guys weren't a bit more competitive.   :-//
Locally nothing is competitive, I don't even think in buying here. I did ask official local Siglent distributor but they were going out of business at the time and wouldn't even import it for me. But it would likely be more expensive than the expensive option I already had. Local suppliers usually charge over twice as what you see in most listings in any other country.
Quick look, just shy of $1000 for a... Wait for it... Little longer... Getting there! DS1052E

So, my 1054Z at $350 + $70 shipping + $150 custom fees is quite reasonable, but makes me wanna cry... Everithing is like that here, from this to the noodles, go figure. Oh, without a degree you are lucky to get $700 a month in your check.

I'm after a AWG and a LAB PSU now, and of course considering Siglent, if you know a distributor with reasonable international shipments let me know!

JS

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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #56 on: August 24, 2018, 06:11:09 am »
In all honesty, being the tech/computer type that I am, it bothers me to pay for an old computer.

Test gear isn't really comparable to PCs in that regard.

From that perspective, and for an extra $140 I get a newer computer with 1M FFT, double the multi-channel sampling, built-in web server, 400VDC input, and the POTENTIAL for other crap I probably won't use. I probably won't ever use the logic input, but it's there. I dunno if I'd ever shell out any cash for their AWG addon, but the option is there.

It's 40% more expensive, maybe 40% better. If you really can't think of something else for $140 that would ACTUALLY make your life better (ie. today), then, whatever. It's your money.

(Bench power supply, Signal generator, Hakko soldering station, Brymen multimeter...)

PS: As noted earlier: the 400VDC input is a red herring when you use 10x probes and a USB analyzer costs under $10 on eBay (or more than $10 if you want an even better one) - much cheaper than the hundreds of $$ a logic upgrade to an oscilloscope costs.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 06:25:04 am by Fungus »
 
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #57 on: August 24, 2018, 08:16:43 am »
I'm after a AWG and a LAB PSU now, and of course considering Siglent, if you know a distributor with reasonable international shipments let me know!
JS
Several but it's very bad form to sell into another authorized distributors patch, period.

However there is a worldwide grey market, (parallel imports) and most of it stems from Hong Kong or China and many brands are affected. When a distributors patch is blatantly undermined by these sellers and the manufacturers make no effort to set robust guidelines or hard and fast rules it's no wonder equipment distributors set higher margins to remain profitable against overseas suppliers.
Good luck should you need warranty or specialized support from the Asian mum and dad backstreet shops, just good luck !
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #58 on: August 24, 2018, 08:34:49 am »


I'm after a AWG and a LAB PSU now, and of course considering Siglent, if you know a distributor with reasonable international shipments let me know!
JS
Several but it's very bad form to sell into another authorized distributors patch, period.

However there is a worldwide grey market, (parallel imports) and most of it stems from Hong Kong or China and many brands are affected. When a distributors patch is blatantly undermined by these sellers and the manufacturers make no effort to set robust guidelines or hard and fast rules it's no wonder equipment distributors set higher margins to remain profitable against overseas suppliers.
Good luck should you need warranty or specialized support from the Asian mum and dad backstreet shops, just good luck !

I wish I never get there. In this case there is no autorized siglent distributor here anymore, I think still appears in the siglent web but they went out of business months ago. Even if I bought it here good luck to get support from them! Here support sucks in everyway, so I don't really trust local distributors to make any kind of useful support, let alone fast or reasonable, still would likely need to pay a pretty penny for shipment and what not. Then, getting it from overseas I could get two for the price of one locally, if I can get it here, which leaves some margin for the risk to worth it.

The problem here is not high margins but taxes, with 50% import fee, 21% iva (vat?) plus a few smaller extra and taxes applied on taxes, with a reasonable margin the price is still pretty expensive. With all that I've bassically given up designing any product as producing them here even as prototypes would cost that much more than anywhere else, not to mention waiting 2 month for anything from a resistor to a super specialized part, wrong place to be a EE designer I guess, so I settle for mainly industrial work but still need a few tools to debug and fix some gear which would take too long to get replacements for.

JS

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #59 on: August 24, 2018, 08:40:47 am »
According to the Siglent 'How to Buy' page you have two Argentina distributors:
http://www.siglent.com/ENs/lxwms.aspx?id=616

Which one is isn't active anymore ?
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #60 on: August 24, 2018, 08:44:20 am »
and a USB analyzer costs under $10 on eBay (or more than $10 if you want an even better one) - much cheaper than the hundreds of $$ a logic upgrade to an oscilloscope costs.

USB "analyzer" (what analyzer) is not oscilloscope at all. How you analyze signal waveform with these kind of USB "analyzers". They show only decode result or just binary state from signal but you do not see this signal itself at all. Oh you can use external scope for this but where is then time synchronization between scope screen signal and computer screen decode result or 1-0 states.


MSO is just for look digital AND analog signal together with tight time synchronization if use digital channels for decode some serial communication or some other bus. If do not use digital inputs for decode then use analog channels for decode and you have decode and decoded signals analog waveform between signals with tight time synchronization on the screen.  Cheap USB "box" can not do this at all. 
If only need decode, both scopes have free serial decoder and in this Siglent have bit more than this Rigol.
But then, if need MSO functions what means integrated scope and LA then these cheap USB decoders are not these at all)

So if example later user find that he need  MSO with 4 analog channels and 16 digital channels what can use all fully together simultaneously he do not need buy new scope if he have SDS1104X-E.

But if he have DS1054Z or 1104Z then this is just impossible. Only way is buy whole new MSO scope and there come Rigol MSO1104Z. But again, it is mostly same as DS1000Z models with all its goods and bads.

Example fact that it can not do simultaneously 16 digital + 4 analog. You need drop off more or less analog channels if you use digital channels. If want 16 digital then only 2 analog channels can use. Siglent is different. Fun - is it.

This is fun to say that Siglent need buy expensive extra options...  if user need options yes, but then also compare to other brands need do fair way.  Even if you buy R. MSO1104Z (in europe consumer price typically 950 eur)  do not get even nearly same as with SDS1104X-E + MSO-LA option what european consumer price is around 965 euro).

Some ask why Siglent MSO-LA option cost hundreds.
But when we go to Rigol, why not ask why MSO model price is hundreds more than same without MSO. Fun - is it.

Oh well, and then some may tell that 50MHz Rigol can hack to 100MHz model. Well, at this time yes.
But, at same time Siglent 100MHz model can hack afaik 200MHz model. So

And prices. 40% cheaper?? Yes it depends...

Consumer prices, well known very reputable and trusted "spitzenklasse" Batronix:
DS1054Z. 403 eur 
Siglent SDS1104X-E.  510 eur.
-----------------

But then. All what is important is what meets user needs!

And here, imho, even DS1054Z is more than OP need if need is all what we can see here.

For audioit is true that many sound cards and PC software can do lot of better work than 8 bit ADC oscilloscope with what ever memory length. Even normal "crap" sound card what every computer have (more or less crap) can do better, and if want or need better or lot of better  then need - money or lot of more money.
I recommend first test with just this sound card what is in home already and some free software and if never have seen what these can do without any investment - it may be astonishing.


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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #61 on: August 24, 2018, 08:47:12 am »
I'm after a AWG and a LAB PSU now, and of course considering Siglent, if you know a distributor with reasonable international shipments let me know!
JS
Several but it's very bad form to sell into another authorized distributors patch, period.

Good luck should you need warranty or specialized support from the Asian mum and dad backstreet shops, just good luck !
In my experience a local distributor can be unhelpful as well. It is a bit of a hit & miss and you don't know until it is too late. Usually I use google with the company name and the world 'problem' to see if a shop is any good or not before buying. Last year I bought something from Italy instead of the local NL distributor because the NL distributor seemes to have very bad customer services (sell broken / DOA items and then let customers wait weeks or months for repairs).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #62 on: August 24, 2018, 10:17:00 am »
In all honesty, being the tech/computer type that I am, it bothers me to pay for an old computer.

Test gear isn't really comparable to PCs in that regard.

In most cases I would agree. However, IMO most DSOs are really limited/mediocre computers with BNC terminals on them. Ooooh, this one has an 800x480 screen on it, wow! It's kind of pathetic really.

It's 40% more expensive, maybe 40% better. If you really can't think of something else for $140 that would ACTUALLY make your life better (ie. today), then, whatever. It's your money.

(Bench power supply, Signal generator, Hakko soldering station, Brymen multimeter...)

I have everything I need otherwise. I have a Tenma 72-505 audio generator that does any signal generating I really need. I have an Amprobe 37XR-A meter that covers my uses (obviously among other DMMs lol). I'm not a big fan of Hakko though, I think they're overpriced. I have an Aoyue 2703A+ that's excellent for my needs. Bench supply and isolation transformers are also covered. I have no need for another meter, but I would still buy a 121GW for the hell of it/sheer curiosity...I mean to support the blog. ;)

I get that perspective, but I don't think of it like "what else can I spend $140 on now." I think of it more along the "buy cheap, buy twice" proverb. Yes, the Rigol is $140 cheaper right now, and covers my needs right now, but will it end up costing me more next year when I realize I needed more out of the scope? Of course, I could be kidding myself to get a shinier toy. I am aware of that possibility.  :-DD

Thanks,
Josh
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #63 on: August 24, 2018, 01:37:42 pm »
USB "analyzer" (what analyzer) is not oscilloscope at all. How you analyze signal waveform with these kind of USB "analyzers".

You use your oscolloscope!

MSO is just for look digital AND analog signal together with tight time synchronization

All true, but:
a) It's really just a convenience, not a necessity.
b) It's a really expensive convenience ($300+ for the add-on - nearly as much as a Rigol!)
c) A USB logic analyzer is much better for recording long data sequences and analyzing them than a tiny-screen knobs-and dials device.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 01:42:56 pm by Fungus »
 

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #64 on: August 24, 2018, 02:06:52 pm »
I get that perspective, but I don't think of it like "what else can I spend $140 on now." I think of it more along the "buy cheap, buy twice" proverb. Yes, the Rigol is $140 cheaper right now, and covers my needs right now, but will it end up costing me more next year when I realize I needed more out of the scope? Of course, I could be kidding myself to get a shinier toy. I am aware of that possibility.  :-DD

As a car analogy: It's more like ticking the "leather" option box on a Ford Fiesta. It makes the car a nicer, yes, but ... your daily commute and weekly shop will be about the same in real terms.

That said: If you like leather seats and have the money then go ahead and tick it. The next step up (eg. Ford Focus) is a big step so you might as well get some options for your Fiesta.

Just realize you're not upgrading to a huge SUV (or Mercedes Benz, depending on taste) when you tick the "Siglent" box.  :popcorn:
 
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Offline wpwrak

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #65 on: August 24, 2018, 02:29:42 pm »
Which one is isn't active anymore ?

Temtec seem to be gone. They used to be in the city, had a fairly comprehensive catalog, and could also get things that weren't in the catalog. Now they're somewhere out in the woods and sell what looks like leftover stock of exotic parts. Ah, scratch that. Now their domain has expired, too.

I asked Electro Tools for a quote a few months ago, and the price they gave me was roughly what it would cost to import (with taxes, customs fees, etc.) two scopes on my own. So I did (just getting one, though).
 

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #66 on: August 24, 2018, 04:02:14 pm »
As a car analogy: It's more like ticking the "leather" option box on a Ford Fiesta. It makes the car a nicer, yes, but ... your daily commute and weekly shop will be about the same in real terms.

That said: If you like leather seats and have the money then go ahead and tick it. The next step up (eg. Ford Focus) is a big step so you might as well get some options for your Fiesta.

Just realize you're not upgrading to a huge SUV (or Mercedes Benz, depending on taste) when you tick the "Siglent" box.  :popcorn:

I hear all that except I don't care for Ford at all. ;)

Okay. So here's the question then: what would you consider the proper next step up if I want something actually better? Keeping in mind that higher bandwidth means little to nothing for my use.

Thanks,
Josh
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #67 on: August 24, 2018, 04:15:18 pm »
Okay. So here's the question then: what would you consider the proper next step up if I want something actually better? Keeping in mind that higher bandwidth means little to nothing for my use.

If you want four channels it gets expensive real fast.

If you want two analog + one digital channel, there's this:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-976-keysight-1000-x-series-oscilloscope-teardown/
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #68 on: August 24, 2018, 04:25:20 pm »
Okay. So here's the question then: what would you consider the proper next step up if I want something actually better? Keeping in mind that higher bandwidth means little to nothing for my use.
GW Instek MSO2000 series or the R&S RTB2000 series. Personally I wouldn't buy any of Keysight's current oscilloscope offerings because the memory is too small. You'd think 4Mpts ought to be enough but that 4Mpts is shared so you are left with 500kpts with the digital channels on.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #69 on: August 24, 2018, 04:28:21 pm »
GW Instek MSO2000 series or the R&S RTB2000 series.

R&S make really nice oscilloscopes.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #70 on: August 24, 2018, 04:46:49 pm »
GW Instek MSO2000 series or the R&S RTB2000 series.
R&S make really nice oscilloscopes.
Yes and no. The big touch screen on the R&S RTB2000 is nice to use but the GW Instek MSO2000 can do filtering and math on the actual data where the RTB2000 uses decimated data. Also the FFT on the GW Instek is 1Mpts versus 128k. It is very hard to justify the extra costs of the R&S RTB2000 versus the GW Instek MSO2000 from a functional perspective.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #71 on: August 24, 2018, 04:51:29 pm »
GW Instek MSO2000 series or the R&S RTB2000 series. Personally I wouldn't buy any of Keysight's current oscilloscope offerings because the memory is too small. You'd think 4Mpts ought to be enough but that 4Mpts is shared so you are left with 500kpts with the digital channels on.

I agree, I wasn't impressed with the Keysight specs, especially for the price. But I'm also not a fan of Instek's footprint, though they are quite competitive on paper.

I would love to have an RTB2004, but you're killing me here. I don't need a $2000 scope (as pretty as it is - I want it just for the aesthetic, it would look amazing on my bench ;)). The $300 to $500 range is overkill for my needs, any of these $2000 scopes are well beyond any perceivable ROI for me. A $500 scope pays for itself. A $2000 scope that doesn't do anything better for me just costs me an extra $1500.

Thanks,
Josh

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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #72 on: August 24, 2018, 05:15:57 pm »
the FFT on the GW Instek is 1Mpts versus 128k.

Yes, but the R&S is 10bit so it'll be better.

Long buffers are used to compensate for lack of bits.  :popcorn:
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #73 on: August 24, 2018, 05:23:15 pm »
I don't need a $2000 scope

You didn't need the Siglent, either.  :popcorn:

Yes, the Rigol is $140 cheaper right now, and covers my needs right now...  I could be kidding myself to get a shinier toy. I am aware of that possibility.

« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 05:31:12 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #74 on: August 24, 2018, 05:40:44 pm »
I don't need a $2000 scope

You don't need the Siglent, either.  :popcorn:

Yes, the Rigol is $140 cheaper right now, and covers my needs right now...  I could be kidding myself to get a shinier toy. I am aware of that possibility.

Haha, that's true. But I do like the idea of it. ;) More than that I like the idea of not being limited by the DS1054Z. If I ever need more, I have to replace the Rigol. With the Siglent, I might not need to add to it, but if I want to, I can.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #75 on: August 24, 2018, 05:57:03 pm »
the FFT on the GW Instek is 1Mpts versus 128k.
Yes, but the R&S is 10bit so it'll be better.

Long buffers are used to compensate for lack of bits.  :popcorn:
No. Short FFT reduces the ability to see both a sensible part of the signal and the frequency domain in a sensible way. Last year I worked on a project where my GW Instek GDS2000E (the version without digital channels) really helped me because of the input filtering and long FFT. It was just perfect for the job.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #76 on: August 24, 2018, 06:08:16 pm »
Haha, that's true. But I do like the idea of it. ;) More than that I like the idea of not being limited by the DS1054Z. If I ever need more, I have to replace the Rigol. With the Siglent, I might not need to add to it, but if I want to, I can.

Have you seen the price of the Siglent logic analyzer option? It costs nearly as much as the 'scope. You can buy an Analog Discovery 2 for much less than that 'upgrade'. An AD2 will do 16-channel logic analysis and be much, much better for Audio work (it has 14 bit ADC, AWG, can do Bode plots, etc.). In fact: For your stated needs you might want to forget the 'scope for a while and get an Analog discovery instead.

https://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-2-100msps-usb-oscilloscope-logic-analyzer-and-variable-power-supply/

 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #77 on: August 24, 2018, 06:17:14 pm »
Have you seen the price of the Siglent logic analyzer option? It costs nearly as much as the 'scope. You can buy an Analog Discovery 2 for much less than that 'upgrade'. An AD2 will do 16-channel logic analysis and be much, much better for Audio work (it has 14 bit ADC, AWG, can do Bode plots, etc.). In fact: For your stated needs you might want to forget the 'scope for a while and get an Analog discovery instead.

https://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-2-100msps-usb-oscilloscope-logic-analyzer-and-variable-power-supply/

I have no interest in the logic analyzer. I would probably go that AD2 route if I ever need it. Then I would have the Siglent plus the AD2, which still sounds like a better combo than the Rigol and the AD2...

Wow, I'm looking at the specs on the AD2, my interest is certainly piqued. This might be useful regardless of what bench scope I stick with. It's certainly a bargain for what it does.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 06:23:51 pm by KungFuJosh »
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #78 on: August 24, 2018, 06:38:41 pm »
Wow, I'm looking at the specs on the AD2, my interest is certainly piqued. This might be useful regardless of what bench scope I stick with. It's certainly a bargain for what it does.

The supplied software is really good, too.  :-+

(A lot of those sort of gadgets have good hardware but rubbish software. Not the AD2...)
 

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #79 on: August 24, 2018, 07:03:08 pm »
For digital oriented projects, the Digilent Digital Discovery is another nice tool.  I have both...

If I just want to look at something, my DS1054Z is fine.  But if I want to have nice printed results for documentation (or study material), the AD2 does a better job.  Not necessarily more complete, the DS makes a LOT of measurements, but I tend to copy the AD2 screen image to the clipboard and then manipulate it with Paint.

There's a lot to be said for the educational value of the AD2.  Particularly in the early years when filters and response curves are being discussed.  The AD2 Bode' plot is better than any scope version I have ever seen.  And the image isn't cramped on my 27" monitor!

 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #80 on: August 24, 2018, 07:18:03 pm »
Okay, that all makes lots of sense. I certainly like the idea of the AD2 and all the extra useful features it has for future uses. Besides being better quality, it's more cost-effective than the Siglent addons+required options.

Here's the remaining question between the Rigol vs. Siglent: some of you have convinced me that I will end up using 3 or 4 channels at a time eventually. Even if I'm only using 2, the Siglent does support double the sampling ability when running any level of multi-channels. It seems to me like this should be important in my decision making between the two models?
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #81 on: August 24, 2018, 07:34:05 pm »
Here's the remaining question between the Rigol vs. Siglent: some of you have convinced me that I will end up using 3 or 4 channels at a time eventually. Even if I'm only using 2, the Siglent does support double the sampling ability when running any level of multi-channels. It seems to me like this should be important in my decision making between the two models?
It is but not the only one.
Have you discovered the UI latency in the 54Z ?
You won't experience that in the X-E !
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #82 on: August 24, 2018, 07:45:05 pm »
Have you discovered the UI latency in the 54Z ?
You won't experience that in the X-E !

No, but I'd love to. ;) My uses right now have been hooked up to a tube amp output jack. I'm assuming I'd have to do something fancier to get some screen lag to happen?
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #83 on: August 24, 2018, 08:04:15 pm »
It seems to me like this should be important in my decision making between the two models?

That's a good question.

Theoretically you don't need it, 2.5x the bandwidth is enough to perfectly reconstruct a signal (Rigol has exactly 2.5x with all channels on).

In practice? I'm not sure how much difference it really makes (screenshots, anybody?)

Remember though: You can turn a couple of channels off on the Rigol to get 1GHz sampling when you really need to look closely at a waveform. That makes this a convenience feature on the Siglent not a showstopper for the Rigol.

And on that note we're right back to, "The Siglent is 40% more expensive so it ought to be at least 40% better/nicer/whatever than the Rigol".

Have you discovered the UI latency in the 54Z ?
You won't experience that in the X-E !

Don't exaggerate. The only real difference is in the vertical position control and the Rigol works well enough.

(and (b), The Siglent is 40% more expensive, so...)

PS: Have we mentioned how much twiddling is needed to enable a simple on-screen measurement on the Siglent? The Rigol has a nice row of buttons down the left hand side for that.

Here's a reminder:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1526209/#msg1526209


Have you discovered the UI latency in the 54Z ?
You won't experience that in the X-E !

No, but I'd love to. ;)

Don't miss the Siglent UI apologetic thread above  :popcorn:
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 08:09:31 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #84 on: August 24, 2018, 08:34:50 pm »
Don't miss the Siglent UI apologetic thread above  :popcorn:

 :-DD Between the two of you I can't decide which way to go, but at least it's entertaining.

Question: If YOU were running 3 or 4 channels at 100Mhz or better, would you really be satisfied with 250M per channel? I know I'm generally not doing that, but this is a theoretical question. ;)

For that particular instance, the sampling is 200% better for only 40% more $$. Same story for the hacked bandwidth potential (not that I care about that personally at this point). I will read that thread though. I obviously intend this to be a more informed decision than my first purchase.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #85 on: August 24, 2018, 09:14:48 pm »
Don't miss the Siglent UI apologetic thread above  :popcorn:

 :-DD Between the two of you I can't decide which way to go, but at least it's entertaining.

I'm just saying that I wouldn't trade a better response in the vertical controls for the row of buttons down the left side of my Rigol. I know which is more useful and which will waste more of my time.

Question: If YOU were running 3 or 4 channels at 100Mhz or better, would you really be satisfied with 250M per channel? I know I'm generally not doing that, but this is a theoretical question. ;)

It depends on what you're looking at. If you're actually looking at four signals with 100MHz base frequencies then, no it's not enough.

Then again, a 100Mhz oscilloscope isn't suitable for doing that - you'll see four 100Mhz sine waves on screen but nothing much in the way of harmonics. In that scenario you should be looking at 300MHz+ oscilloscopes, maybe 500Mhz for real signal fidelity.

Back in real life: I know I'm only going to look at signals in the tens of MHz range on my DS1054Z, maybe 50MHz tops. In that scenario 250M per channel is enough for me (it's 5 times the Nyquist limit, plenty for signal reconstruction).

If we apply the same criteria to the Siglent then I don't believe the extra sample rate will make much real difference.

5x Nyquist vs. 10x Nyquist? Not much difference, maybe a pixel here and there.

(nb. I'm willing to look at some screenshots if anybody can demonstrate otherwise...)

OTOH: If you're going to hack the Siglent to 200MHz and look at four simultaneous signals with 100MHz base frequencies then it will come into play (though maybe not as much as you might think - Nyquist theory works, bitches!)
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #86 on: August 24, 2018, 09:31:05 pm »
OTOH: If you're going to hack the Siglent to 200MHz and look at four simultaneous signals with 100MHz base frequencies then it will come into play (though maybe not as much as you might think - Nyquist theory works, bitches!)

You crack me up man. Reading the Siglent thread I see two big plusses in the Rigol's favor:

1. the side buttons like you mentioned
2. firmware update simplicity

In the Rigol you just dump the file on the USB and poop it in. The Siglent sounds like extra work for every update.

That leaves me here:

Rigol Pros:
Physical side buttons/UI simplicity
Price
Firmware update simplicity
Laziness *(already on my bench)

Siglent Pros:
Higher multi-channel sampling
1M FFT
400VDC input (vs 300VDC) (yes, I know it doesn't matter, but a plus is a plus)
Optional extras that aren't worth the money especially thanks to toys like the AD2


I'll have to test the Windows remote software for the Rigol and see if I hate it or not. If it's okay I suppose that neutralizes the web server on the Siglent...not that I think I'd use either too much.
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Offline ttelectronic

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #87 on: August 24, 2018, 09:41:14 pm »
I'll have to test the Windows remote software for the Rigol and see if I hate it or not. If it's okay I suppose that neutralizes the web server on the Siglent...not that I think I'd use either too much.
DSRemote is Linux based, but I find it a lot faster and more useful than the Windows tools by Rigol. Especially when exporting large amounts of data from the scope. I use a virtual box of linux to run it. https://www.teuniz.net/DSRemote/
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #88 on: August 24, 2018, 09:50:40 pm »
I'll have to test the Windows remote software for the Rigol and see if I hate it or not. If it's okay I suppose that neutralizes the web server on the Siglent...not that I think I'd use either too much.
DSRemote is Linux based, but I find it a lot faster and more useful than the Windows tools by Rigol. Especially when exporting large amounts of data from the scope. I use a virtual box of linux to run it. https://www.teuniz.net/DSRemote/

Yeah, the official Rigol software is 1Gb of garbage.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #89 on: August 24, 2018, 09:53:32 pm »
Siglent Pros:
Higher multi-channel sampling
...

For the reasons (I tried to explain) above, I wouldn't get too hung up on that number if you're not planning on hacking it to 200MHz.
 

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #90 on: August 24, 2018, 09:57:40 pm »
Reading the Siglent thread I see two big plusses in the Rigol's favor:

1. the side buttons like you mentioned
2. firmware update simplicity

In the Rigol you just dump the file on the USB and poop it in. The Siglent sounds like extra work for every update.
Updates are easy.
The zip or rar is unpacked to find a changelog, instructions and the update. Pop the update onto a USB stick, insert into the scope and navigate to it and install.
Done hundreds of them as I dispatch every unit with the latest FW. Only stuff that's been shipped after a new FW version is released needs this treatment.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #91 on: August 24, 2018, 10:21:31 pm »
Updates are easy.
The zip or rar is unpacked to find a changelog, instructions and the update. Pop the update onto a USB stick, insert into the scope and navigate to it and install.
Done hundreds of them as I dispatch every unit with the latest FW. Only stuff that's been shipped after a new FW version is released needs this treatment.

I don't doubt that they're simple enough, but they require more effort/thought than Rigol. That's a point deduction. ;)

For the reasons (I tried to explain) above, I wouldn't get too hung up on that number if you're not planning on hacking it to 200MHz.

Oh, I got what you said. But a plus is a plus is a plus. The feature is there, and the hackability is there. Technically that's two plusses. It's not as heavily weighing my choice as it was thanks to what you said.

The biggest thing now that sways me against the Siglent is that even if I wanted only the AWG add-on, the price difference of the Siglent + the AWG add-on (without the BS "option" cost) is already enough to buy the AD2 with the BNC port package...which obviously is a better choice for me to have the Rigol + AD2 than just the Siglent + AWG only.
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #92 on: August 24, 2018, 10:45:17 pm »
Updates are easy.
The zip or rar is unpacked to find a changelog, instructions and the update. Pop the update onto a USB stick, insert into the scope and navigate to it and install.
Done hundreds of them as I dispatch every unit with the latest FW. Only stuff that's been shipped after a new FW version is released needs this treatment.

I don't doubt that they're simple enough, but they require more effort/thought than Rigol.
How so ?
Do the Rigol updates come ready to be installed and not zipped ?
If so, well they don't care about your data package and possible data cap.
Just checked here http://www.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 and the site's as slow as a wet week to grab a piddle arsed little 1.8MB rar. Still minutes to go FFS.  ::)
If it ever finishes I'll take a look inside it and check what comes with the FW......................still waiting FFS.
Not a good first look !

Pre-release, the X-E's had an optional online FW update facility that was dropped as some felt buyers would be scared off by an 'ET phone home' configuration but it was entirely user driven and made for FW updates to be totally zero hassle. I hope Siglent reinstates this capability and keeps it entirely user configurable.

OK, finally downloaded and the rar contents structure is little different to anything I've ever seen from Siglent.
I'm gunna call 'Myth busted' !
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #93 on: August 24, 2018, 10:53:25 pm »
I'm gunna call 'Myth busted' !

No myth. From your own description of the process, I'd have to go look for, and select the update files on the USB stick on the scope.

On the Rigol you place the firmware in the root of the USB and it auto-detects the file and does the rest after asking you if you want to update. That's less effort.

I don't really care one way or the other, that's not going to sway my decision that heavily.

However, reading through that Siglent thread, a lot of people had issues with updating their firmware or OS. This supports the point in Rigol's favor more. Even if one update wasn't a PIA, the other might fail.
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #94 on: August 24, 2018, 10:58:59 pm »
I'm gunna call 'Myth busted' !

No myth. From your own description of the process, I'd have to go look for, and select the update files on the USB stick on the scope.

On the Rigol you place the firmware in the root of the USB and it auto-detects the file and does the rest after asking you if you want to update. That's less effort.

I don't really care one way or the other, that's not going to sway my decision that heavily.
Sure, any instrument is exactly the same if you have an empty USB stick.
The one I use has various folders for all Siglent FW and sub-folders as well so 'navigate' that I used previously is correct if your stick has nothing else on it.

Quote
However, reading through that Siglent thread, a lot of people had issues with updating their firmware or OS.
:)
Guess how that's fixed: RTFM !
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #95 on: August 24, 2018, 11:04:27 pm »
:)
Guess how that's fixed: RTFM !

 :-DD nobody does that....actually, I did read (almost) the whole Rigol manual. That crap was long as hell.

EDIT: I read a lot of the Siglent manual too. They're both equally boring.
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #96 on: August 24, 2018, 11:10:05 pm »
:)
Guess how that's fixed: RTFM !

 :-DD nobody does that....actually, I did read (almost) the whole Rigol manual. That crap was long as hell.

EDIT: I read a lot of the Siglent manual too. They're both equally boring.
Nah, the FW manual ! It comes in the FW rar/zip package and for an OS update it's a different install process to FW.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #97 on: August 24, 2018, 11:12:35 pm »
Nah, the FW manual ! It comes in the FW rar/zip package and for an OS update it's a different install process to FW.

Oh, see, now that is more effort. ;)
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #98 on: August 25, 2018, 12:50:12 am »
Nah, the FW manual ! It comes in the FW rar/zip package and for an OS update it's a different install process to FW.

Oh, see, now that is more effort. ;)
Sure but an OS update is not an everyday occurrence and might only happen once in a products lifetime.
If the bowls of the instrument are significantly improved then the effort to install a OS update is worth it.
The 4ch X-E OS update made major improvements to the webserver in particular.
It was dead simple and only needed the update files in the root of the drive so to auto-install at boot.

The most common error is to use a USB stick incompatible with the OS, hell even Dave struggled getting one seen with the new DS7000 he looked at. FAT32 and under 8Gb and there's generally never a problem.
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #99 on: August 25, 2018, 12:54:51 am »
The most common error is to use a USB stick incompatible with the OS, hell even Dave struggled getting one seen with the new DS7000 he looked at. FAT32 and under 8Gb and there's generally never a problem.

I replied to a thread about people having issues with USB sticks. The trick is to use "SD Card Formatter" utility (from sdcard.org) to format them (not the OS's formatting utility), and almost any USB stick will probably work. I'm using a 32GB USB3.1 stick with the 1054Z and it's working fine.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 01:04:57 am by KungFuJosh »
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #100 on: August 25, 2018, 05:04:09 am »
I'm after a AWG and a LAB PSU now, and of course considering Siglent, if you know a distributor with reasonable international shipments let me know!
JS
Several but it's very bad form to sell into another authorized distributors patch, period.

Good luck should you need warranty or specialized support from the Asian mum and dad backstreet shops, just good luck !
In my experience a local distributor can be unhelpful as well. It is a bit of a hit & miss and you don't know until it is too late. Usually I use google with the company name and the world 'problem' to see if a shop is any good or not before buying. Last year I bought something from Italy instead of the local NL distributor because the NL distributor seemes to have very bad customer services (sell broken / DOA items and then let customers wait weeks or months for repairs).

  There's the answer I'd gave you, except electro-tools failed to answer my mails so I didn't even considered them. I wouldn't trust a seller who doesn't reply to quotes request to have a good support later. I totally forgotten about them.
  Temtec did answered my mail quickly but they weren't importing any new products, just selling whatever they had left. I remember a 3458A for $5k which as you can imagine is a great deal here but I'm not in the market for that right now, but it catch my eye.
  Sorry, but buying here makes no sense, support isn't great and prices either, this isn't just for your brand, don't take it personally, but for me, rigging up the lab for myself to be able to do what I know to do best I can't justify it. A bigger company, which needs someone to call and blame if something doesn't work, and have some benefits from buying locally, a university which needs to buy locally and doesn't have a choice, and a few other examples, will work with them, but for individuals setting up persona labs to be able to work I don't think so.

  About FFT length, as I had said many times, I pick the data from the PC and run the processing there, I can run a FFT with the full memory depth, so for me being able to capture 24M points with 1GSa/s with some advanced trigger options is the most important feature. I wouldn't go with cheaper with low memory depth, but more expensive with more processing power wouldn't make a big difference for me. Math function limitations are in all the scopes and a bit more in some particular case doesn't make or brake the deal for me. The refresh sending the data to the PC won't be as fast but I can live with that, the times for me catching a rare event aren't that often. Once I had a fast, once in a few month event but I wouldn't trust the Siglent to catch it either, troubleshooting that wasn't easy... Also, 200kwf/s using deep memory isn't a thing anyway.

  I wouldn't even bother in FW updates being easier or harder, is something you do once every few moth at most and be done with it. The key building blocks, as front end, ADC, etc. does bother me, the frond end is a win for Siglent as can go to a lower range better, you do have two ADCs but the same specs as the one in the Rigol, so for one channel are the same, where I would want to characterize a signal. I use as many channels as I have while debugging or troubleshooting but there usually I don't use the ADC to it's full spec. One strong point I see in the Rigol is the 24M for a single channel, I understand the Siglent goes up to 14M in a single channel, and in two channels they are closer 12M against 14M. Again, in this regard, to go to the PC, the Rigol wins. There are so many factors to consider, there is no a clear winner considering the price difference. Siglent is a more modern option with a lot of wins, even more as stand alone.
  Before someone start to attack me why didn't I went with a PC based one to start with, I do use a lot of functionality while using as stand alone, but not while pushing it to the limits. The Rigol makes a great fit for me so far, some people won't be so happy going to the PC and want everything in the one device.
 
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #101 on: August 25, 2018, 07:09:10 am »
<snipped>
  About FFT length, as I had said many times, I pick the data from the PC and run the processing there, I can run a FFT with the full memory depth, so for me being able to capture 24M points with 1GSa/s with some advanced trigger options is the most important feature. I wouldn't go with cheaper with low memory depth, but more expensive with more processing power wouldn't make a big difference for me. Math function limitations are in all the scopes and a bit more in some particular case doesn't make or brake the deal for me. The refresh sending the data to the PC won't be as fast but I can live with that, the times for me catching a rare event aren't that often. Once I had a fast, once in a few month event but I wouldn't trust the Siglent to catch it either, troubleshooting that wasn't easy... Also, 200kwf/s using deep memory isn't a thing anyway.
WRT capturing data for PC processing.
I'll leave this for those that aren't aware of it:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/open-source-lxi-tools-and-liblxi-v1-0-released-for-gnulinux/msg1394796/#msg1394796
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #102 on: August 25, 2018, 08:24:20 am »
Josh,

Since you work on tube amps, for the $140+ difference between the scope you have and some of the others you're contemplating, you could get a high-voltage differential probe. Although most of the time you take measurements in tube amps relative to chassis ground, with a differential probe you can measure across any two points. I don't know how often that might be useful to you, but thought I'd mention it.

Right now, I see one of the vendors on eBay selling MicSig 100MHz 1400V differential probes has them for $120:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=micsig+dp10013&_sacat=0&_sop=15


For audio work, the higher bit depth of the AD2 (14 bits) or dedicated USB-based equipment for audio analysis (16, 24 or more bits per sample) may be better suited. Of course, it also depends to what level of precision and granularity you're doing things like measuring distortion, S/N ratios, etc.

However, even an old Rigol DS1052E and its FFT can enable you to see if your amp has less than a certain percentage of distortion by sending through a dual-tone test signal, one of which is at an amplitude that represents your desired distortion threshold and at a frequency that doesn't collide with the harmonics of the primary signal, as a visual marker.

As with any technical buying decision, knowing your true requirements will help a lot to sift through all the possibilities. Otherwise, analysis paralysis is always lurking behind every spec sheet.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #103 on: August 25, 2018, 12:23:39 pm »
Josh,

Since you work on tube amps, for the $140+ difference between the scope you have and some of the others you're contemplating, you could get a high-voltage differential probe. Although most of the time you take measurements in tube amps relative to chassis ground, with a differential probe you can measure across any two points. I don't know how often that might be useful to you, but thought I'd mention it.

Right now, I see one of the vendors on eBay selling MicSig 100MHz 1400V differential probes has them for $120:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=micsig+dp10013&_sacat=0&_sop=15


For audio work, the higher bit depth of the AD2 (14 bits) or dedicated USB-based equipment for audio analysis (16, 24 or more bits per sample) may be better suited. Of course, it also depends to what level of precision and granularity you're doing things like measuring distortion, S/N ratios, etc.

However, even an old Rigol DS1052E and its FFT can enable you to see if your amp has less than a certain percentage of distortion by sending through a dual-tone test signal, one of which is at an amplitude that represents your desired distortion threshold and at a frequency that doesn't collide with the harmonics of the primary signal, as a visual marker.

As with any technical buying decision, knowing your true requirements will help a lot to sift through all the possibilities. Otherwise, analysis paralysis is always lurking behind every spec sheet.

That is a great price for those probes. I have the same probes in a wishlist on Amazon for $159.

Tube guitar amps is what I work on, and they always need distortion, even when they're supposed to be "clean." I'm not really interested in getting rid of distortion as much as looking at it to see characteristics and shape. The amps I make sound great, this is more for curiosity and self-education, with the potential to eventually shape that distortion differently. But more curiosity than anything else WRT to the FFT stuff.

Actually, my biggest headache right now is chasing down a parasitic oscillation in a reverb circuit.  |O Whichever scope can make that easier wins instantly. ;)

lol, analysis paralysis. That's funny, and accurate.

WRT capturing data for PC processing.
I'll leave this for those that aren't aware of it:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/open-source-lxi-tools-and-liblxi-v1-0-released-for-gnulinux/msg1394796/#msg1394796

That looks like another (small) plus for the Siglent. It comes back to exactly what I said about the Siglent being the newer computer. So there. ;) But will there ever be an official LXI release for this? Is this 100% reliant on the github project? If that's the case then that's not a long-term, reliable solution.
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #104 on: August 25, 2018, 12:26:40 pm »
Although most of the time you take measurements in tube amps relative to chassis ground, with a differential probe you can measure across any two points. I don't know how often that might be useful to you, but thought I'd mention it.

I do always measure to ground. This is something I don't understand being so new to scopes. Why would I want to measure across two points on a scope besides ground?
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #105 on: August 25, 2018, 12:50:11 pm »
Is this 100% reliant on the github project? If that's the case then that's not a long-term, reliable solution.

It's often the other way around: Open Source can be extremely durable, since even when the original author(s) disappears or loses interest, you still have the code and can carry on if you want. "You" doesn't necessarily have to be you as a person, who may or may not have the motivation, skills, and resources to take over maintaining some project, but is the whole user community.

Regarding the Siglent, you may also want to consider this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/open-source-instrument-firmware-project-104048/
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #106 on: August 25, 2018, 12:55:09 pm »
Although most of the time you take measurements in tube amps relative to chassis ground, with a differential probe you can measure across any two points. I don't know how often that might be useful to you, but thought I'd mention it.

I do always measure to ground. This is something I don't understand being so new to scopes. Why would I want to measure across two points on a scope besides ground?
Think about a half-bridge driver where you want to measure the voltage on the base/gate versus the emitter/source.
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #107 on: August 25, 2018, 01:03:21 pm »
Although most of the time you take measurements in tube amps relative to chassis ground, with a differential probe you can measure across any two points. I don't know how often that might be useful to you, but thought I'd mention it.

I do always measure to ground. This is something I don't understand being so new to scopes. Why would I want to measure across two points on a scope besides ground?
Think about a half-bridge driver where you want to measure the voltage on the base/gate versus the emitter/source.

Not in a simple tube guitar amp circuit. I could see that being useful in other circuits, but for me the question is specific to simple vintage tube guitar amps. Where would I benefit in a simple tube guitar amp circuit?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 01:05:07 pm by KungFuJosh »
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #108 on: August 25, 2018, 01:31:30 pm »
To be clear, this is the type of guitar amp circuit I build, and yes, I love heat-shrink tubing. ;)
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #109 on: August 25, 2018, 01:40:51 pm »
WRT capturing data for PC processing.
I'll leave this for those that aren't aware of it:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/open-source-lxi-tools-and-liblxi-v1-0-released-for-gnulinux/msg1394796/#msg1394796

That looks like another (small) plus for the Siglent. It comes back to exactly what I said about the Siglent being the newer computer. So there. ;) But will there ever be an official LXI release for this? Is this 100% reliant on the github project? If that's the case then that's not a long-term, reliable solution.
The point is, the LXI/LAN speed.
With the existing SCPI command set and the inbuilt webserver that includes the command set panel you can yank info from LAN port in close to real-time, or via the USB WiFi for that matter.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #110 on: August 25, 2018, 02:18:13 pm »
The point is, the LXI/LAN speed.
With the existing SCPI command set and the inbuilt webserver that includes the command set panel you can yank info from LAN port in close to real-time, or via the USB WiFi for that matter.

I get that, that's why it gets the point. The question is the real-world application of that in the near future, and especially for me personally. How useful will that point be?

Rigol Pros:
Physical side buttons
UI simplicity
Firmware updates probably less buggy. ;)
Laziness *(already on my bench)
Price

Siglent Pros:
hackable to 200Mhz
Higher multi-channel sampling
1M FFT
No side buttons = more screen space for waveforms
LXI/LAN speed
400VDC input (vs 300VDC) (yes, I know it doesn't matter, but a plus is a plus and mistakes happen)
Optional extras that aren't worth the money especially thanks to toys like the AD2

There's also software spectrum analyzers like spek.cc or friture.org that would probably save me the need for an AD2 if I ever want to bother with that...though the AD2 seems fun and has an AWG.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 02:23:17 pm by KungFuJosh »
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #111 on: August 25, 2018, 02:25:33 pm »
the AD2 seems fun and has an AWG.

An AWG AND a 14-bit oscilloscope in the same device. This combination allows you to generate frequency sweeps and plot the frequency response/harmonic distortion of things like amplifiers.

 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #112 on: August 25, 2018, 02:38:23 pm »
An AWG AND a 14-bit oscilloscope in the same device. This combination allows you to generate frequency sweeps and plot the frequency response/harmonic distortion of things like amplifiers.

Oh, I dig it, but for me it's a toy. I may buy it eventually, but I'm well aware of what it is when I do (a very nice toy). It, and the open-source SA software both negate the ridiculously over-priced add-ons for the Siglent.

 >:D My daughter made me click that.
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #113 on: August 25, 2018, 06:38:33 pm »
Oh, I dig it, but for me it's a toy.

A "toy" that properly set up (ie. with suitable probes) can probably help you do your job better then either the Rigol or the Siglent.

It looks like they've been building up a nice catalog of accessories since I last checked it out, eg. take a look at this bundle. It's not cheap, but very tempting. The BNC adapter gives you two-channel oscilloscope and two-channel signal generator.



Price is relative though - that entire bundle costs less than just the logic analyzer upgrade for the Siglent.

Oscilloscope bandwidth aside, it's a lot of capability for the money. I wonder how electrically robust it is.

Edit: They claim "robustness to withstand student use..."
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 07:04:34 pm by Fungus »
 

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #114 on: August 25, 2018, 06:59:42 pm »
To be clear, this is the type of guitar amp circuit I build, and yes, I love heat-shrink tubing. ;)

Thanks for the example. It's helpful to understand what you're working on. It looks like you already have more than enough for your area of interest. I wouldn't look to spend any more. Use what you have, then you'll better know if and when you need more and what will fulfill that need.

Heat shrink is a good thing. I've seen some mighty scary point-to-point constructions — it makes you wonder how the thing doesn't short out just breathing too hard.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #115 on: August 25, 2018, 09:14:05 pm »
A "toy" that properly set up (ie. with suitable probes) can probably help you do your job better then either the Rigol or the Siglent.

It looks like they've been building up a nice catalog of accessories since I last checked it out, eg. take a look at this bundle. It's not cheap, but very tempting. The BNC adapter gives you two-channel oscilloscope and two-channel signal generator.

Price is relative though - that entire bundle costs less than just the logic analyzer upgrade for the Siglent.

Oscilloscope bandwidth aside, it's a lot of capability for the money. I wonder how electrically robust it is.

Edit: They claim "robustness to withstand student use..."

I want a bench scope, and that isn't, so it's a no-go for general use as I have no desire to be stuck to a computer. I don't think it's expensive at all, and I actually already had that bundle bookmarked in case I do decide to buy that toy. A reliable scope is what I need, and for actual scopin' I don't think I would call that more reliable than either of the other models. It's also not USB isolated, so I would need to add that to the mix too.

Thanks for the example. It's helpful to understand what you're working on. It looks like you already have more than enough for your area of interest. I wouldn't look to spend any more. Use what you have, then you'll better know if and when you need more and what will fulfill that need.

Heat shrink is a good thing. I've seen some mighty scary point-to-point constructions — it makes you wonder how the thing doesn't short out just breathing too hard.

Thanks, as I mentioned, I do believe they're both overkill. ;) The thing that irks me is the "older tech" repeating in my head makes me feel unsatisfied with the Rigol - as silly as that is. The better processing and networking potential on the Siglent is very tempting...but I could find myself wanting to replace either one of these in a year or two, so  |O ...

I hear you on the heat shrink, I've seen some serious nightmares. Some people's sloppiness can be bad enough, remove the board on a PTP build and it can get scary.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #116 on: August 25, 2018, 10:36:24 pm »
I want a bench scope, and that isn't, so it's a no-go for general use

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'd want a really fancy probe before I attach one to a tube amp.

 

Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #117 on: August 25, 2018, 10:45:32 pm »
Yeah, I know what you mean. I'd want a really fancy probe before I attach one to a tube amp.

Are you being sarcastic or do you mean because of the high voltage?
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #118 on: August 25, 2018, 10:59:30 pm »
High voltage.
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #119 on: August 25, 2018, 11:13:07 pm »
High voltage.

Most of my circuits peak around 350VDC. With my current probes (Pico TA131), the x10 covers 600V, so I think I'm okay there. Is there any reason I should be concerned in that scenario?

I'm planning on getting some fixed x100 Cal Test CT2707 probes that do 1200V.

................and I also have some differential probes bookmarked. I really don't want to bother with them though if they're not going benefit me in my simple(ish) tube circuits.
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #120 on: August 25, 2018, 11:37:36 pm »
High voltage.

Most of my circuits peak around 350VDC. With my current probes (Pico TA131), the x10 covers 600V, so I think I'm okay there. Is there any reason I should be concerned in that scenario?

I'm planning on getting some fixed x100 Cal Test CT2707 probes that do 1200V.

................and I also have some differential probes bookmarked. I really don't want to bother with them though if they're not going benefit me in my simple(ish) tube circuits.
There will be times when you can't place a probe reference (gnd) lead where you want so don't discount needing a differential probe at some stage.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #121 on: August 26, 2018, 12:37:20 am »
There will be times when you can't place a probe reference (gnd) lead where you want so don't discount needing a differential probe at some stage.

I definitely hear that, that's why it's bookmarked. But my builds usually have ground points with good access, and 90% of the testing is probably off the output jack anyway.

I gotta say one other point for the Siglent is the front panel design. I hate the appearance of the Rigol; it looks sloppy by comparison. Aesthetic matters, my day job is design. ;)
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Offline JS

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #122 on: August 26, 2018, 01:12:18 am »
There will be times when you can't place a probe reference (gnd) lead where you want so don't discount needing a differential probe at some stage.

I definitely hear that, that's why it's bookmarked. But my builds usually have ground points with good access, and 90% of the testing is probably off the output jack anyway.

I gotta say one other point for the Siglent is the front panel design. I hate the appearance of the Rigol; it looks sloppy by comparison. Aesthetic matters, my day job is design. ;)
It's not about having access to a ground, is about needing to know the voltage between two points where neither of them is ground, like if you want to measure the voltage across a cathode and the grid of a cathode follower, to look at the bias while the signal is present. If you probe both in reference to ground which are swinging 20V at 100V from ground and you try to measure that signal for the time you subtracted them both in the math (AKA poors man differential probe) you are left with very little signal, you wanted to look for, as it was a small signal on top of a big common mode signal.

JS
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Offline JS

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #123 on: August 26, 2018, 01:21:42 am »
<snipped>
  About FFT length, as I had said many times, I pick the data from the PC and run the processing there, I can run a FFT with the full memory depth, so for me being able to capture 24M points with 1GSa/s with some advanced trigger options is the most important feature. I wouldn't go with cheaper with low memory depth, but more expensive with more processing power wouldn't make a big difference for me. Math function limitations are in all the scopes and a bit more in some particular case doesn't make or brake the deal for me. The refresh sending the data to the PC won't be as fast but I can live with that, the times for me catching a rare event aren't that often. Once I had a fast, once in a few month event but I wouldn't trust the Siglent to catch it either, troubleshooting that wasn't easy... Also, 200kwf/s using deep memory isn't a thing anyway.
WRT capturing data for PC processing.
I'll leave this for those that aren't aware of it:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/open-source-lxi-tools-and-liblxi-v1-0-released-for-gnulinux/msg1394796/#msg1394796

I tried to post a response to that but tapatalk wouldn't let me do it... not in the last few days.

The main thing on the answer was that seems obvious that more people is working on automated tests, as LXI brings a cheap and easy way even for every home lab to have some gear capable of running on that. Some people is leaving it pass by and I don't know why, because they are likely to be able to learn how and the ROI for that time will be pretty fast as a few measurements go by. Thermal profiles are often logged by hand in some experiments in my university, as the effect is slow enough that with a thermometer, a stop watch, paper and pencil you pretty much have your data 'logger' (sitting in a bench looking at the damn thing for way too long)

JS
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #124 on: August 26, 2018, 04:58:37 am »
Can a Siglent 100 MHz now be hacked to 200 MHz? I can't seem to find much about that.
 

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #125 on: August 26, 2018, 09:02:33 am »
Can a Siglent 100 MHz now be hacked to 200 MHz? I can't seem to find much about that.

Perhaps you forget this your own msg?

So it is possible to hack an SDS1104X-E to be a SDS1204X-E.

You need to... <clip>

Interesting. It'd make the Siglent a lot more competitive compared to the DS1054Z.

All who have enough skills to do this as it should be done and do carefully his homeworks can find all needed right information (and can also filter out possible bullshits). For avoid any hassle with this method just important rule is: First brain, then muscle.

Follow these quoted msg's in they original threads and study these threads and possible related links there.



Some tiny tests can find also here.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1623214/#msg1623214
After this message read fully least next all msg's least up to msg #831

There can find even some tests but perhaps it is better without further advertisements about this "feature".  User need also understand what are pros and cons specially because we do not have brickwall filter analog front end.
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Offline tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #126 on: August 26, 2018, 11:10:28 am »
Some tiny tests can find also here.

Totally itsy-bitsy...   ^-^
 

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #127 on: August 26, 2018, 02:07:54 pm »
There will be times when you can't place a probe reference (gnd) lead where you want so don't discount needing a differential probe at some stage.

I definitely hear that, that's why it's bookmarked. But my builds usually have ground points with good access, and 90% of the testing is probably off the output jack anyway.

I gotta say one other point for the Siglent is the front panel design. I hate the appearance of the Rigol; it looks sloppy by comparison. Aesthetic matters, my day job is design. ;)
It's not about having access to a ground, is about needing to know the voltage between two points where neither of them is ground, like if you want to measure the voltage across a cathode and the grid of a cathode follower, to look at the bias while the signal is present. If you probe both in reference to ground which are swinging 20V at 100V from ground and you try to measure that signal for the time you subtracted them both in the math (AKA poors man differential probe) you are left with very little signal, you wanted to look for, as it was a small signal on top of a big common mode signal.

JS
Sure there are a few ways to measure floating potentials however there are times when you need the proper gear.
Say a mains phase control high-side pair of reversed biased SCR's, gates elevated and driven by pulse xformers.
Never did I think that my hobby of electronics would have me doing that stuff but once you have the gear and some knowledge it's not hard but it is dangerous and there must be no distractions. Careful work technique too, one hand in back pocket at all times when powered so to offer no electrical path across the body should you touch something hot.
A UJT had failed and when replaced we had to adjust the set points so both SCR's were turning on at the same point in opposite curves of the mains sine wave so to share the load properly. Fun stuff and led me more into power electronics as my greatest interest coupled with simple digital control.  :)
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #128 on: August 26, 2018, 05:27:30 pm »
there are times when you need the proper gear.

Speaking of having the proper gear, I'm surprised you never pointed out that the 1004X-E stuff is compatible with any Siglent AWG, and in any case besides the add-on it doesn't need the stupid $$$ option. For $20 less than that stupid AWG add-on, I can get the SDG805 which I assume should be more than enough for audio work (not that I need one any time soon, I'm content with my cheap Tenma audio generator for now).

You gotta up your sales skillz bro. ;)

Rigol Pros:
Physical side buttons
UI simplicity
Firmware updates probably less buggy.
Laziness *(already on my bench)
Price

Siglent Pros:
hackable to 200Mhz
Higher multi-channel sampling
1M FFT
No side buttons = more screen space for waveforms
Front panel not as ugly (to me)
LXI/LAN speed
400VDC input (vs 300VDC) (yes, I know it doesn't matter, but a plus is a plus and mistakes happen)
Optional extras that aren't worth the money especially thanks to toys like the AD2
Compatible with Siglent standalone AWGs without the stupid option upgrade
Works with the $10 WiFi dongle


I'm going to RMA the Rigol and try the Siglent out. If it's annoying or sucks, it also has a 30 day return policy.

I hate to ask this because they're fugly and over-sized, but does anybody really believe the Instek scopes are more reliable for some reason than Rigol or Siglent? From watching Dave's tear-down videos I got the opposite impression, but I saw a comment that said otherwise so I thought I should ask. The only thing I do like about the comparable Instek is the individual vertical controls.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 05:38:32 pm by KungFuJosh »
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #129 on: August 26, 2018, 08:26:32 pm »
I hate to ask this because they're fugly and over-sized, but does anybody really believe the Instek scopes are more reliable for some reason than Rigol or Siglent? From watching Dave's tear-down videos I got the opposite impression, but I saw a comment that said otherwise so I thought I should ask. The only thing I do like about the comparable Instek is the individual vertical controls.
The GW Insteks are way less buggy compared to Rigol and Siglent especially when it comes to newly released equipment and if you find a bug it gets fixed quickly. So all in all the testing-before-releasing and service are better.The GW Instek oscilloscopes are also covered by a limited lifetime warranty which ends 5 years after GW Instek stops producing the model; so you get at least 5 years of warranty. I think it also shows the confidence GW Instek has in the quality of their products.

I think the one Dave took apart is a pre-production model. In my GDS-2204E there is only one integrated board (without the add-on boards shown in Dave's video).
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Offline JS

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #130 on: August 26, 2018, 09:26:49 pm »


Sure there are a few ways to measure floating potentials however there are times when you need the proper gear.
Say a mains phase control high-side pair of reversed biased SCR's, gates elevated and driven by pulse xformers.
Never did I think that my hobby of electronics would have me doing that stuff but once you have the gear and some knowledge it's not hard but it is dangerous and there must be no distractions. Careful work technique too, one hand in back pocket at all times when powered so to offer no electrical path across the body should you touch something hot.
A UJT had failed and when replaced we had to adjust the set points so both SCR's were turning on at the same point in opposite curves of the mains sine wave so to share the load properly. Fun stuff and led me more into power electronics as my greatest interest coupled with simple digital control.  :)

Sorry if I didn't explained my self clear enough, I'm saying a differential prpbes becomes necessary pretty fast, as you can only reject so much with a poors man one, which might be fine for a CM noise the same level of the NM signal. Once the CM becomes bigger than the NM you kind of need a differential probe and if the CM is much grater than the signal you want an isolation probe.

JS

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Offline BillB

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #131 on: August 26, 2018, 09:34:21 pm »
I'm going to RMA the Rigol and try the Siglent out. If it's annoying or sucks, it also has a 30 day return policy.

:phew:  I don't think I've ever deliberated as much for anything... school, career, spouse, that capital murder case I sat on a jury for...



 

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #132 on: August 26, 2018, 10:24:30 pm »
:phew:  I don't think I've ever deliberated as much for anything... school, career, spouse, that capital murder case I sat on a jury for...
Oh my, you should see the stacks of research and documentation I've produced to decide on some things.
 

Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #133 on: August 27, 2018, 01:19:53 am »
:phew:  I don't think I've ever deliberated as much for anything... school, career, spouse, that capital murder case I sat on a jury for...

 :-DD Well, it was both entertaining and educational for me.

The stupid thing is I had the SDS1202X-E on my wishlist on Amazon for about year, and I didn't buy it because 1. I had no idea if it was any good/good enough for my needs, and 2. the ad said "200 mhz" and I thought anybody selling an oscilloscope should know the difference between mHz and MHz.

Oh my, you should see the stacks of research and documentation I've produced to decide on some things.

This is more public, but less involved than my recent hunt for camera lenses. I bought, tested, and returned a lot (nobody cares about quality anymore, even in the $1K price range)...finally settled on a couple nice ones.

I think the one Dave took apart is a pre-production model. In my GDS-2204E there is only one integrated board (without the add-on boards shown in Dave's video).

That's interesting about the updates, but I'm guessing the difference between your scope and the one in Dave's video is that your scope costs twice as much. I'm not looking to be anywhere near that price range. If I was spending that much I'd probably get stuck buying an R&S just because they're sexy. ;)
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #134 on: August 27, 2018, 01:56:28 am »
I'm going to RMA the Rigol and try the Siglent out. If it's annoying or sucks, it also has a 30 day return policy.

Looking forward to reading your comparison after you've had a little time with the Siglent.

Quote
I hate to ask this because they're fugly and over-sized, but does anybody really believe the Instek scopes are more reliable for some reason than Rigol or Siglent? From watching Dave's tear-down videos I got the opposite impression, but I saw a comment that said otherwise so I thought I should ask. The only thing I do like about the comparable Instek is the individual vertical controls.

I've heard both sides on that one — no surprise, huh. There's no perfect scope (nor anything else, practically). I also like the individual vertical controls (very much), but I had already gotten the 1054Z before that Instek was available. I don't regret my purchase, but still enjoy seeing the new things coming out.
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Offline JS

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #135 on: August 27, 2018, 03:20:56 am »
:phew:  I don't think I've ever deliberated as much for anything... school, career, spouse, that capital murder case I sat on a jury for...

 :-DD Well, it was both entertaining and educational for me.

The stupid thing is I had the SDS1202X-E on my wishlist on Amazon for about year, and I didn't buy it because 1. I had no idea if it was any good/good enough for my needs, and 2. the ad said "200 mhz" and I thought anybody selling an oscilloscope should know the difference between mHz and MHz.

Oh my, you should see the stacks of research and documentation I've produced to decide on some things.

This is more public, but less involved than my recent hunt for camera lenses. I bought, tested, and returned a lot (nobody cares about quality anymore, even in the $1K price range)...finally settled on a couple nice ones.

I think the one Dave took apart is a pre-production model. In my GDS-2204E there is only one integrated board (without the add-on boards shown in Dave's video).

That's interesting about the updates, but I'm guessing the difference between your scope and the one in Dave's video is that your scope costs twice as much. I'm not looking to be anywhere near that price range. If I was spending that much I'd probably get stuck buying an R&S just because they're sexy. ;)
  Be patience with the Siglent, from what I've read it's a bit more hard to get used to... But you should get used to it in the end and have more functionality into it. If you don't mind the extra $$ I think it clearly is the winner here.

 Funny you mention camera lenses, I'm not a even a hobbyist on that but I came across a few and I learned how to properly use a DSLR. I had a GF who had a T4i kit with a 18-135 lens, it was quite nice and the lens hold itself pretty nicely too, against some other more professional ones I've seen. Later my sister decided to get one but she didn't know a thing about them, I ended buying a T3i with the same kit lens to start with. Funny surprise the quality difference between those two lenses, my sister's was much harder to focus (1/4 turn against a much longer of the other ) and it wouldn't hold focus while you zoom in and out as the T4i one did, really hard to get good focus with the lens wide open. That's one that doesn't appear on spec sheet either, even after knowing the difference I haven't seen any difference in the specs, models or branding on publications, hard to know if I needed to buy another one now. Right now my sister's is living with a professional photographer who has mostly canon gear so her lens went to the shelf and he uses her camera body with a wide range of lenses she has at her disposal.

  Good luck with the other one and remember to come back to this thread to put your findings out. I've seen a lot of reviews about this two but not a single comparison in your actual position trying to decide between both and having both to use for a while and decide.

JS
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #136 on: August 27, 2018, 03:35:21 am »
  Good luck with the other one and remember to come back to this thread to put your findings out. I've seen a lot of reviews about this two but not a single comparison in your actual position trying to decide between both and having both to use for a while and decide.

JS

Thanks, I'll definitely post my opinion once I form one. I'm not too worried about figuring it out. It has an "auto set" button just like the Rigol. ;)

The features where the Rigol was lacking like the Siglent's better FFT, or the advanced network stuff should be interesting.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #137 on: August 27, 2018, 03:52:08 am »
Right now, I see one of the vendors on eBay selling MicSig 100MHz 1400V differential probes has them for $120:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=micsig+dp10013&_sacat=0&_sop=15

I just ordered one for $115 (best offer). Hopefully the thing works well. Thanks for the ebay idea, saved me $45 vs. the same thing I was looking at on Amazon.
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Offline JS

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #138 on: August 27, 2018, 04:56:45 am »
Thanks, I'll definitely post my opinion once I form one. I'm not too worried about figuring it out. It has an "auto set" button just like the Rigol. ;)
|O |O |O |O
The first thing I did with my Rigol out of the box was disable that function, it only works to mess the measurements you were making by missing a button. They even made it big and easy to press right at the top of the instrument, between the clear and run buttons you press when you want to repeat the same measurement  |O |O |O |O
Quote
The features where the Rigol was lacking like the Siglent's better FFT, or the advanced network stuff should be interesting.
  You won't see the real differences on every day use between the two, there are things you can make with one that you can with the other, but they are few and very specific. FFT will show a difference, but how often do you actually need the difference between both is not clear. You could probably set up a few tests to try the things you can do with the new one, like probing the data lines in your car, or some low level measurements.

  In any case, good luck with it and enjoy it! Now my head hurts for actually going and hitting the wall with it as you made me remember the auto button on scopes... Don't come with the UNDO option, not good enough for me, just leave the auto button on a hidden place, like the tinny recessed ones you hit with a sharp point, and if you want a big sign right next to it and a blinking arrow so a newbie can find it, but nobody can hit it accidentally. You will always have a probe next to you to press it if you need it.

JS
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #139 on: August 27, 2018, 05:15:04 am »
Thanks, I'll definitely post my opinion once I form one. I'm not too worried about figuring it out. It has an "auto set" button just like the Rigol. ;)
|O |O |O |O
The first thing I did with my Rigol out of the box was disable that function, it only works to mess the measurements you were making by missing a button. They even made it big and easy to press right at the top of the instrument, between the clear and run buttons you press when you want to repeat the same measurement  |O |O |O |O
Quote
The features where the Rigol was lacking like the Siglent's better FFT, or the advanced network stuff should be interesting.
  You won't see the real differences on every day use between the two, there are things you can make with one that you can with the other, but they are few and very specific. FFT will show a difference, but how often do you actually need the difference between both is not clear. You could probably set up a few tests to try the things you can do with the new one, like probing the data lines in your car, or some low level measurements.

  In any case, good luck with it and enjoy it! Now my head hurts for actually going and hitting the wall with it as you made me remember the auto button on scopes... Don't come with the UNDO option, not good enough for me, just leave the auto button on a hidden place, like the tinny recessed ones you hit with a sharp point, and if you want a big sign right next to it and a blinking arrow so a newbie can find it, but nobody can hit it accidentally. You will always have a probe next to you to press it if you need it.

JS
;D
X-E have a Autoset Undo !

My demo's out ATM or I'd put up a screenshot of it.
From another thread
Random settings


Autoset on above

« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 05:34:48 am by tautech »
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Offline JS

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #140 on: August 27, 2018, 06:34:52 am »


Don't come with the UNDO option, not good enough for me, just leave the auto button on a hidden place, like the tinny recessed ones you hit with a sharp point, and if you want a big sign right next to it and a blinking arrow so a newbie can find it, but nobody can hit it accidentally. You will always have a probe next to you to press it if you need it.

JS
;D
X-E have a Autoset Undo !

My demo's out ATM or I'd put up a screenshot of it.
From another thread
Random settings


Autoset on above

I meant don't mention, or don't even come on. The undo button is only there for a single screen, if I go with the next button press as I already knew I was trying to capture again I'd ve screwed. I know why they put it, I just can't live with it. The dissable option is needed as I'm not the only who thinks this, but still annoys me there is one of the most accessible buttons in the thing I can't use for anything else. Would be nice to be AUTO as default but I can assign whatever quick access I want, like the record\segmented memory mode in the Rigol which is pretty well hidden.

JS

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Offline bitseeker

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #141 on: August 27, 2018, 06:48:05 am »
Right now, I see one of the vendors on eBay selling MicSig 100MHz 1400V differential probes has them for $120:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=micsig+dp10013&_sacat=0&_sop=15

I just ordered one for $115 (best offer). Hopefully the thing works well. Thanks for the ebay idea, saved me $45 vs. the same thing I was looking at on Amazon.

Sure thing. Was that from the same vendor that had it discounted to $119 (looks like it went up a bit)? It sure is a good price. I'm tempted to get one, but I already have an HVP-70 (got it before Micsig released theirs).
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #142 on: August 27, 2018, 06:57:11 am »

X-E have a Autoset Undo !


So does DS1000Z...
 
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #143 on: August 27, 2018, 07:42:53 am »
I meant don't mention, or don't even come on. The undo button is only there for a single screen, if I go with the next button press as I already knew I was trying to capture again I'd ve screwed. I know why they put it, I just can't live with it. The dissable option is needed as I'm not the only who thinks this, but still annoys me there is one of the most accessible buttons in the thing I can't use for anything else. Would be nice to be AUTO as default but I can assign whatever quick access I want, like the record\segmented memory mode in the Rigol which is pretty well hidden.

JS
I get exactly where you're coming from as like you, I despise Autoset too.
I never use the damned thing as IMHO it holds the user back from learning how to properly 'drive' a scope.  :horse:
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #144 on: August 27, 2018, 08:10:26 am »
I get exactly where you're coming from as like you, I despise Autoset too.
I never use the damned thing as IMHO it holds the user back from learning how to properly 'drive' a scope.  :horse:
  What other want to learn is a bit over me, I always suggests not to use it. But for my own use, let's say the function did worked as expected and shows me a good signal, I have to go and check every single parameter because I don't know what I'm looking at, so it takes me longer and I understand less than doing it myself. There are hard to trigger signals, and it could help, but it usually doesn't anyway as hard to trigger signals are harder for the auto function as well...
  Worst thing still is the big USELESS button.

JS
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #145 on: August 27, 2018, 08:29:43 am »
I think the one Dave took apart is a pre-production model. In my GDS-2204E there is only one integrated board (without the add-on boards shown in Dave's video).
That's interesting about the updates, but I'm guessing the difference between your scope and the one in Dave's video is that your scope costs twice as much. I'm not looking to be anywhere near that price range. If I was spending that much I'd probably get stuck buying an R&S just because they're sexy. ;)
The one I have has a bigger screen but the GDS1054B can be hacked nowadays. I don't know if that includes a higher bandwidth but it gives you a pretty complete scope for a reasonable price.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #146 on: August 27, 2018, 08:46:51 am »
X-E have a Autoset Undo !

The Rigol has that, too:


(neener neener)

One good thing on the Rigol is that after you press it you get a secondary menu that allows you to choose another step on the process, eg. zoom in on a single rising edge - see above.

You won't see the real differences on every day use between the two

Oh, NOW they come out of the woodwork.  :box:
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 09:22:51 am by Fungus »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #147 on: August 27, 2018, 09:15:18 am »
I have to go and check every single parameter because I don't know what I'm looking at, so it takes me longer and I understand less than doing it myself.

How is that faster/easier than looking at three numbers on screen?

Sounds like lack of practice to me.

nb. I almost never use it either, I'm just saying that doesn't sound like a good reason.

It certainly does cause a hiccup, a discontinuity or whatever you want to call it, in the mental process. I'm not sure if that's because it locks up the scope for two seconds while it thinks about it whereas with knobs you'd already be in there twiddling.

I think the problem is it changes several parameters at once. Maybe it should be divided into auto-vertical and auto-horizontal. It would be nice to have very fine control over it to find a sweet spot.

(or maybe it's useful as-is and we all need just to practice more.  :popcorn:)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 09:41:11 am by Fungus »
 

Offline JS

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #148 on: August 27, 2018, 10:15:01 am »


I have to go and check every single parameter because I don't know what I'm looking at, so it takes me longer and I understand less than doing it myself.

How is that faster/easier than looking at three numbers on screen?

Sounds like lack of practice to me.

nb. I almost never use it either, I'm just saying that doesn't sound like a good reason.

It certainly does cause a hiccup, a discontinuity or whatever you want to call it, in the mental process. I'm not sure if that's because it locks up the scope for two seconds while it thinks about it whereas with knobs you'd already be in there twiddling.

I think the problem is it changes several parameters at once. Maybe it should be divided into auto-vertical and auto-horizontal. It would be nice to have very fine control over it to find a sweet spot.

(or maybe it's useful as-is and we all need just to practice more.  :popcorn:)

It's not just three I think, as it could change the coupling, the adquisition, the memory depth, the display config, the whole trigger setup, and probably a few more and not all of them are displayed in the main screen at first. And not knowing all of those could trick you to belive whats in the display.

Also not every scope you come across comes to the same conclusion, or will behave the same way.

I decide each one of those parameters based on a few factors, and the process lends me to know what I'm looking at. For instance, using high rea or average is only fine if I first use normal adquisition and all looks fine as averaging will show a better picture and not hide any important information.

JS

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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #149 on: August 27, 2018, 10:37:11 am »
It's not just three I think, as it could change the coupling, the adquisition, the memory depth, the display config, the whole trigger setup, and probably a few more and not all of them are displayed in the main screen at first. And not knowing all of those could trick you to belive whats in the display.

Yes, I know, I meant how many things you need to look at to re-orient yourself - voltage, frequency, coupling, what else?

(and on a Rigol you can tell it not to change the coupling)

 

Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #150 on: August 27, 2018, 12:15:22 pm »
Maybe it's just laziness, but I like hitting the autoset button. Yes, it's annoying waiting the 1 or 2 seconds while it's frozen, but it's less annoying than twiddling 3 knobs for 10 to 20 seconds to come to the same conclusion. Or maybe that's fun? Once it's set you can still twiddle the knobs to adjust the display or settings beyond that.

Pressing Storage then Default sets everything back to default on the Rigol if you're worried about the auto settings left over, and there's other undos also. But that wasn't an issue for my basic uses. I wasn't doing math functions or anything like that, just watching sine waves pooping around with it. The autoset seemed to work pretty well, even the triggering worked pretty well with some tricky stuff.

It couldn't freeze everything, but neither could I. Sometimes I had to hit the Stop button to print the ugliness I was seeing with the parasitic I'll hopefully eventually kill.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 02:45:41 pm by KungFuJosh »
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Offline BillB

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #151 on: August 27, 2018, 12:27:37 pm »
Right now, I see one of the vendors on eBay selling MicSig 100MHz 1400V differential probes has them for $120:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=micsig+dp10013&_sacat=0&_sop=15

I just ordered one for $115 (best offer). Hopefully the thing works well. Thanks for the ebay idea, saved me $45 vs. the same thing I was looking at on Amazon.

Sure thing. Was that from the same vendor that had it discounted to $119 (looks like it went up a bit)? It sure is a good price. I'm tempted to get one, but I already have an HVP-70 (got it before Micsig released theirs).

$115 !?  That's a great price.  There are a few review threads of it floating around here somewhere.  It's probably more like a 60MHz probe, but for the price, it's a nice little unit.
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #152 on: August 27, 2018, 12:37:01 pm »
$115 !?  That's a great price.  There are a few review threads of it floating around here somewhere.  It's probably more like a 60MHz probe, but for the price, it's a nice little unit.

Haha, yeah, not too bad. I started my offer at $80. ;) For my needs, 60Mhz is plenty. I could probably leave the 20Mhz bandwidth limit on and be fine. Maybe I should? I already got the tracking number, they ship pretty quick it seems. I'm in MA, and it's coming from NJ, so it'll probably be here in a day or two...before I even have a new scope to play with.
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #153 on: August 27, 2018, 03:37:06 pm »
Analog front end signal noise is also some diference between Rigol and Siglent.
These tests are comparable as much as possible.
(Note difference between Siglent Stdev and Rigol RMS (Rigol do not have Stdev so only way is use RMS and it include of course also DC offset)
Here Rigol is 100MHz BW and Siglent is 200MHz. If we reduce Siglent BW to 100MHz it reduce noise level around 3dB. As can see Siglent have lot of less noise even when it have double bandwidth.

Siglent have full resolution 500uV/div and Rigol have 5mV/div full vertical resolution.
With 10x probe it mean that highest sensitivity with full vertical resolution with Rigol is 50mV/div and with Siglent 5mV/div.

Other thing is that Rigol use highly decimated data for measurements. (also it map all samples to display, example here all 7Msample is mapped to display memory without decimation also for better intensity gradation so that it is dependent about one wfm data density on display and also sequential overlayed traces specially when use settings what give more wfm/s speed but less horizontal scrunch)

In this image Siglent can measure horizontally using full 1ns resolution.
But Rigol time resolution is perhaps roughly something like 10000 times less. (somewhere in forum is old thread where is exact data)

Of course all depends user needs what are important things but differencies between SDS1000X-E and DS1000Z is really huge if start looking all things. Is it even fair to compare so different things, even if some main parameters are same. What are same. Max 1GSa/s, 7" display, 4 channels and shared vertical controls. Siglent is more expensive, yes. And it is LOT of more if look its power as tool.
But only IF user need. Of course if example this Rigol 1kZ is more than enough for user needs then why pay more. It is still today lot of scope with its price!

But then, there is possible also things what user can not think before he find how useful some features are if he . Just example always background working waveform history buffer. Of course it is perhaps widely underestimated because most have never used this kind of feature and then no one talk about it - how talk things what do not have and/or know. Because most of scopes (specially low end scopes) do not have it at all or have some nearly useless "frame recorder" without full raw acquisition data.




I think difference is tiny bit more than negligible.


« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 03:42:27 pm by rf-loop »
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #154 on: August 27, 2018, 04:19:12 pm »
But then, there is possible also things what user can not think before he find how useful some features are

This is exactly right. This is a big motivator for me in purchasing the Siglent over the Rigol. A lot of people point out that the Siglent costs 40% more but I see 3 important factors:

1. Neither one of them are that expensive as oscilloscopes go. Not at all.
2. In some cases the Siglent performs 200% better than the Rigol.
3. It will cost me much less to buy the Siglent now, than it would to keep the Rigol, be disappointed by it, and then need to buy the Siglent or something else superior to the Rigol anyway. ("buy cheap, buy twice")

If it turns out I hate the Siglent, I can return it, but that's not likely.

If it turns out I never benefit from any of the better performance or features, oh well, but that's not likely either.

Now the only problem is most dealers seem to be out of stock.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #155 on: August 27, 2018, 05:29:11 pm »


It's not "unknown" at all. The Rigol does all calculations, serial decodes, etc., based on the block of 1200 samples that's currently displayed on screen (squished into 600 pixels). You want a better answer? Zoom in on the area of interest (or press 'auto'  :popcorn:).

PS: Any RMS calculation of non-bandwidth-limited white noise is always a bit 'suspicious' and a very suspect way to demonstrate a 'scopes supposed superiority. The VPP number is the one to focus on.

1.3mV of noise @1GHz with the probe in 1x mode? Turn on the bandwidth limiter, that's what it's for.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 05:59:32 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #156 on: August 27, 2018, 08:14:47 pm »


It's not "unknown" at all. The Rigol does all calculations, serial decodes, etc., based on the block of 1200 samples that's currently displayed on screen (squished into 600 pixels). You want a better answer? Zoom in on the area of interest (or press 'auto'  :popcorn:).

1) PS: Any RMS calculation of non-bandwidth-limited white noise is always a bit 'suspicious' and a very suspect way to demonstrate a 'scopes supposed superiority. The VPP number is the one to focus on.

2)  1.3mV of noise @1GHz with the probe in 1x mode? Turn on the bandwidth limiter, that's what it's for.

1) Perhaps Keysight engineers are wrong and you are right? But here is Keysight:
Quote
Understanding Noise and How it Should Be Measured:
Random noise, sometimes referred to as white noise, is theoretically unbounded and exhibits a Gaussian distribution. Unbounded simply means that because of the random nature
of noise, the more data you collect in noise characterization measurements, the higher the peak-to-peak excursions will grow. For this reason, random phenomenon such as vertical noise and random jitter should be measured and specified as an RMS (one standard deviation) value.


2)

1GHz  |O

I still believe that Rigol have 100MHz "gaussian like" BW (if you understand how BW affect noise...) and here compared with 200MHz BW Siglent what also can calculate RMS and it do it right.  (here used Stdev for remove possible DC offset for get noise RMS)
Of course we can also compare with more narrow BW. But if I need 100MHz scope for measurements I need know how it works with 100MHz. If I measure unrepetitive  1Hz square wave what have 4ns risetime I can not reduce BW. I need full 100 MHz BW or better if more. So simple.
Of course when want less noise and IF can reduce BW then just reduce BW.
Also it is not so important what are these absolute values... but as you can see there is two scope face to face and using enough same setup. They are comparable. You can also see peak to peak just with eyes from screen image if you want and it is big.
Of course there is lot of differences. This is only just one.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #157 on: August 27, 2018, 09:02:02 pm »
Turn on the bandwidth limiter, that's what it's for.

Do you think that's good to use in general for audio stuff? Is there any reason I would need to see anything above 20Mhz probing a tube amp? Is that a dumb question? ;)
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #158 on: August 27, 2018, 10:52:32 pm »
It doesn't matter whether you turn the BW limit on or off because the Rigol 1000Z is noisy like hell. The more recent oscilloscopes from GW Instek, MicSig and Siglent use a very low noise analog front-end and ADC (IIRC they all use the same so their performance when it comes to noise is comparable).
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #159 on: August 27, 2018, 11:06:35 pm »
It doesn't matter whether you turn the BW limit on or off because the Rigol 1000Z is noisy like hell. The more recent oscilloscopes from GW Instek, MicSig and Siglent use a very low noise analog front-end and ADC (IIRC they all use the same so their performance when it comes to noise is comparable).

I'm returning the Rigol. I'll have a Siglent on Saturday. So what then?
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #160 on: August 28, 2018, 06:13:04 am »
It doesn't matter whether you turn the BW limit on or off because the Rigol 1000Z is noisy like hell. The more recent oscilloscopes from GW Instek, MicSig and Siglent use a very low noise analog front-end and ADC (IIRC they all use the same so their performance when it comes to noise is comparable).

Yes, nearly all are better than this Rigol 1kZ if think its front end signal noise. Example Owon, GoodWill (GWI), Siglent, MicSiglent, etc...
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #161 on: August 28, 2018, 07:25:29 am »
Turn on the bandwidth limiter, that's what it's for.

Do you think that's good to use in general for audio stuff? Is there any reason I would need to see anything above 20Mhz probing a tube amp? Is that a dumb question? ;)

With 10x probe it's not really needed.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #162 on: August 28, 2018, 07:56:31 am »
Siglent what also can calculate RMS and it do it right.

1) The Rigol measurement method isn't "unknown" as you claim. Just zoom in on the signal and you'll get a better (and much lower!) number.

It's not difficult to do (in fact it's quite natural to do this when you're working with a signal - you tend to zoom in to look at it).

The only thing 'suspicious' about those measurements was subtracting 3dB from the Siglent's noise level just because you felt like it. Noise is noise, the VPP of the noise is what people see on screen, not the RMS.

The "apparent" noise also depends on the 'scope settings, display brightness, display persistance, sample rate, number of channels, etc. If you watch this video at around the 7:30 mark you can see Dave change the (apparent) noise levels by changing the memory depth:


« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 08:25:08 am by Fungus »
 

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #163 on: August 28, 2018, 08:54:57 am »
Different series, different processor, older model.

Good to see you watching videos about Siglents.  :-+
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #164 on: August 28, 2018, 08:58:58 am »
Different series, different processor, older model.

Still relevent to making claims about "noise" levels.

Good to see you watching videos about Siglents.

Rigol will soon have their new ASIC in a low-end model, so... meh.

 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #165 on: August 28, 2018, 09:00:27 am »


The only thing 'suspicious' about those measurements was subtracting 3dB from the Siglent's noise level just because you felt like it.

Still it looks like you do not understand that there in image was two oscilloscopes with as same situation and settings as can. These can compare. No need look measurements results as all. And Siglent measurement level can see in image. There is not any 3dB subtraction.
Onlöy what I tell was that BW difference is 1:2 and you know (or then you do not know) where from this 3dB come.
Also I have knowledge and experience well enough for claim around 3dB noise level rise when turn Siglent 100MHz to 200MHz BW.  Not of course exatly due to fact that there is also some noise components what are not related to analog side BW.  3dB tip was only from common 10 Log(200 /100)

If we compare Rigol and Siglent then take 100MHz Rigol and 100MHz Siglent and then Siglent show even less  noise.

If you do not believe it is your own problem.

Here compared same Siglent scope with 100MHz BW and 200MHz


100MHz out from box

This new test have same settings so they are quite highly comparable and also same individual scope.

Same individual scope mod to 200MHz
As can see theory and practice is as same as it can be. (because there is also other things related to noise)

If we look how much it rise and take randomly example CH4. Level (Vrms 1)  rise 3.14dB
And if we look how our BW shape and BW width change,  it can say that it is just as expected.

1. V Stdev = V rms - possible DC offset

Different scopes are difficult to compare if look noise p-p because then we need collect same amount of data for measurement and sorry but it looks like with Rigol effective amount of measured data points are really low compared to Siglent due to slower wfm/s in faster times and with slow time bases highly decimated data points. With random gaussian distribute noise this is very important. Probability for catch highest p-p values with Rigol is really low if compare Siglent. If we compare random noise p-p we need collect and analyze same amount of measured data. Example here previously as you told Rigol use 1200 points for measurements. And in this image prevciously where was Rigol and Siglent this Siglent use 7M points. If with this setting turn p-p measure on ... well Rigol tell p-p from random noise using 5800 times less data. Of course propbability to find rare highes peaks rise lot of.
This is why we need compare apples to apples and not apple to shoe.



If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #166 on: August 28, 2018, 09:58:51 am »
Onlöy what I tell was that BW difference is 1:2 and you know (or then you do not know) where from this 3dB come.

I know where it came from, I'm just saying that it shouldn't be "compensated" or reduced in any way because of $THEORY$.

The noise you see on screen is going to be there every time you look at a signal, even if a different brand of oscilloscope has less bandwidth than yours(!)
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #167 on: August 28, 2018, 10:16:49 am »
FWIW the displayed RMS value will halve (approximately) if you zoom in on the Rigol. This halved value is a more correct representation of the noise.

I have two problems with the comparison above, they are:
a) Not knowing (or wilfully misrepresenting) how Rigols work, and
b) "Compensating" the Siglent down by 3dB (because, hey, why not?)

Don't get me wrong: I believe the Siglent probably has a lower noise than the Rigol (but then it ought to, it costs more).

I'm just questioning the data being presented here and trying to point out that trying to measure it is almost impossible. If you watch Dave's video I posted above you can clearly see he's not willing to make a definitive statement because it depends on a lot of variables.

PS: The Rigol makes no claims to having a 500uV range. A more realistic comparison would be the visible noise with them both on their lowest range, ie. Siglent on 500uV and the Rigol on 1mV. That's the noise that people interested in those ranges are actually going to see (in real life!) whenever they look at a signal.

Define your requirements: If you need 500uV then buy a Siglent (or better... eg. a 10 bit R&S).

I know we're all volt-heads around here but for most people/jobs, 1mV of noise (eg. Rigol) isn't a problem.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 10:25:15 am by Fungus »
 

Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #168 on: August 28, 2018, 12:42:53 pm »
Rigol will soon have their new ASIC in a low-end model, so... meh.

Do you have any specifics about this? Hopefully they have a new design for the front panel too.

I think both companies are in a funny position.

Only Rigol's highest-end scopes are relatively new (from what I could see), and they still don't have a good front panel design. I hate the arbitrary, asymmetrical goofy outlines. Looks better than Instek, but that's a low bar.

It also seems like only the SDS1004X-E series is relatively new from Siglent, and everything higher-end is trailing behind. I like the look, larger screens, and individual vertical controls of some of the higher-end Siglent models. But why would I spend 4 times as much money for less scope ability than 1104X-E? Yes, I know there's higher bandwidth and sampling available, but the rest of the scope needs to catch up.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #169 on: August 28, 2018, 12:56:42 pm »
Rigol will soon have their new ASIC in a low-end model, so... meh.

Do you have any specifics about this?

Obviously not. No company leaks information like that.

(not until a few weeks before launch).

Hopefully they have a new design for the front panel too. I hate the arbitrary, asymmetrical goofy outlines. Looks better than Instek, but that's a low bar.

Meh. You probably wouldn't notice it after a day of use.

It also seems like only the SDS1004X-E series is relatively new from Siglent, and everything higher-end is trailing behind. I like the look, larger screens, and individual vertical controls of some of the higher-end Siglent models. But why would I spend 4 times as much money for less scope ability than 1104X-E? Yes, I know there's higher bandwidth and sampling available, but the rest of the scope needs to catch up.

Siglent has been investing in the low-range (to compete with the DS1054Z, which has made Rigol a ton of money) while Rigol has been investing in the the mid-range.

The situation should flip around now the respective new models have been launched. Let's see if Rigol startes dropping some hints a few weeks from now.

(to make anybody who's thinking of going from DS1000Z to SDS1000X-E wait a while before deciding :popcorn: )
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 12:59:50 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #170 on: August 28, 2018, 01:31:08 pm »
Obviously not. No company leaks information like that.

So you're speculating?

Hopefully they have a new design for the front panel too. I hate the arbitrary, asymmetrical goofy outlines. Looks better than Instek, but that's a low bar.

Meh. You probably wouldn't notice it after a day of use.

I had the DS1054Z for 3 weeks. I noticed it every single time I looked at it. I hated the design. It annoys me. My primary job is web/graphic design; I can't help but notice that stuff. It drives me batty when designs are that bad. The Instek also seems like a better choice than the 1054Z, but I simply won't put it on my bench because I can't look at it.

The situation should flip around now the respective new models have been launched. Let's see if Rigol startes dropping some hints a few weeks from now.

(to make anybody who's thinking of going from DS1000Z to SDS1000X-E wait a while before deciding :popcorn: )

Given the business model (from most of these companies) of releasing the scopes and letting the customers do the debugging, I think I'll pass. It'll be a minimum of a year before any new scopes are reliable at all.  :popcorn:
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #171 on: August 28, 2018, 01:56:43 pm »
I had the DS1054Z for 3 weeks. I noticed it every single time I looked at it. I hated the design. It annoys me. My primary job is web/graphic design; I can't help but notice that stuff. It drives me batty when designs are that bad. The Instek also seems like a better choice than the 1054Z, but I simply won't put it on my bench because I can't look at it.

Is the Siglent really that much better?  :-//

Maybe you should get a Micsig tBook or something.


I assume you won't want the optional fugly rubber frame but you can even hide the thing away and use it via your phone.


Prices for 4-channel, 100MHz are comparable to the Siglent.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 02:04:49 pm by Fungus »
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #172 on: August 28, 2018, 02:03:44 pm »
It's funny, because I actually quite like the design of the DS1054Z and loathe that of the Siglent. The oval channel selection buttons drive me nuts. It's completely out of tune with the rest of the design.

Admittedly, Rigol jumped the shark on some of the newer designs that followed the same basic idea of the DS1054Z. Regardless, there's no accounting for taste. There's plenty of professionally designed junk around to prove that once and for all.
 

Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #173 on: August 28, 2018, 02:06:37 pm »
I had the DS1054Z for 3 weeks. I noticed it every single time I looked at it. I hated the design. It annoys me. My primary job is web/graphic design; I can't help but notice that stuff. It drives me batty when designs are that bad. The Instek also seems like a better choice than the 1054Z, but I simply won't put it on my bench because I can't look at it.

Is the Siglent really that much better?  :-//

Maybe you should get a Micsig tBook or something.

I assume you won't want the rubber bumper frame but you can also use it via your phone.

The Siglent is that much better. It looks boring, but it isn't hideous. It also looks like the front panel graphic overlay is detachable, so I'm going to try popping it out, scanning it, and designing my own overlay if I decide I like the scope.

I considered the MicSig, but the reviews for the model in the same price range said the MicSig was slow, and the screen was laggy. So, no thanks on that one. I love the idea of the touchscreen, but the form factor isn't more convenient for me than the bench scopes. It would actually be a hindrance.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #174 on: August 28, 2018, 02:12:26 pm »
I don't get why design is so important. As long as the user interface is not cluttered and easy to use all is well. IMHO it is way more important a tool does a good job.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #175 on: August 28, 2018, 02:14:15 pm »
It's funny, because I actually quite like the design of the DS1054Z and loathe that of the Siglent. The oval channel selection buttons drive me nuts. It's completely out of tune with the rest of the design.

Admittedly, Rigol jumped the shark on some of the newer designs that followed the same basic idea of the DS1054Z. Regardless, there's no accounting for taste. There's plenty of professionally designed junk around to prove that once and for all.

Absolutely, everybody has their own taste. I agree, the ovals are a little weird.

But compare the X/Y control layouts. Siglent has obvious boxes with grey backgrounds, clearly outlining each section. Rigol uses awkward, asymmetrical lines that make no sense at all, and aren't clearly visible.

Obviously I don't think the Siglent is perfect since I want to make my own version of the overlay, but I don't hate it. I could live with it. The Rigol looks stupid to me.

This is all superficial, but it's something these companies should pay attention to. R&S seems to get this right. The RTB2004, for example, is a great looking scope.
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Offline JS

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #176 on: August 28, 2018, 02:16:06 pm »


Obviously not. No company leaks information like that.

So you're speculating?

Hopefully they have a new design for the front panel too. I hate the arbitrary, asymmetrical goofy outlines. Looks better than Instek, but that's a low bar.

Meh. You probably wouldn't notice it after a day of use.

I had the DS1054Z for 3 weeks. I noticed it every single time I looked at it. I hated the design. It annoys me. My primary job is web/graphic design; I can't help but notice that stuff. It drives me batty when designs are that bad. The Instek also seems like a better choice than the 1054Z, but I simply won't put it on my bench because I can't look at it.

The situation should flip around now the respective new models have been launched. Let's see if Rigol startes dropping some hints a few weeks from now.

(to make anybody who's thinking of going from DS1000Z to SDS1000X-E wait a while before deciding :popcorn: )

Given the business model (from most of these companies) of releasing the scopes and letting the customers do the debugging, I think I'll pass. It'll be a minimum of a year before any new scopes are reliable at all.  :popcorn:

I also think Rigol does have something new comming up, such company might started working in a new asic few years ago, knowing the ds1000z would need replacement at some point, now there are a few clues pointing the release date is close. Other than the x-e competiton, might be an extra reason for them to drop the prize and release options for free, they mastered the market, the options alone already bring it pretty close to the siglent and the price was already differentiating at about $100 or 25%. Quite a few years have passed for them to be in time to release a new one and as said, the market is getting more competitive so they're likely to lunch as soon as it feels ready.

I don't mind the looks, what really bothers me is the two blue channels, like there were not other colors around...

About the debugging, I'd expect any new gear to have some problems, the important fact is what they do with them. Rigol has prooven to be very proactive solving the issues, upgrading firmware and tweaking stuff. Waiting a year might be good if you don't want to find yourself in that trend, but a shorter period should be enough so any major HW problems are solved so you don't get in a callback or have a defective unit with lower specs than intended.

JS

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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #177 on: August 28, 2018, 02:17:09 pm »
I don't get why design is so important. As long as the user interface is not cluttered and easy to use all is well. IMHO it is way more important a tool does a good job.

To each their own. I'm a designer by trade, I can't look at bad designs without it bothering me. You're right that the tool needs to do a good job as the highest priority. That doesn't mean there aren't other things to consider.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #178 on: August 28, 2018, 02:22:26 pm »
I also think Rigol does have something new comming up, such company might started working in a new asic few years ago, knowing the ds1000z would need replacement at some point, now there are a few clues pointing the release date is close. Other than the x-e competiton, might be an extra reason for them to drop the prize and release options for free, they mastered the market, the options alone already bring it pretty close to the siglent and the price was already differentiating at about $100 or 25%. Quite a few years have passed for them to be in time to release a new one and as said, the market is getting more competitive so they're likely to lunch as soon as it feels ready.

I don't mind the looks, what really bothers me is the two blue channels, like there were not other colors around...

About the debugging, I'd expect any new gear to have some problems, the important fact is what they do with them. Rigol has prooven to be very proactive solving the issues, upgrading firmware and tweaking stuff. Waiting a year might be good if you don't want to find yourself in that trend, but a shorter period should be enough so any major HW problems are solved so you don't get in a callback or have a defective unit with lower specs than intended.

JS

I'm not disagreeing that it's likely they'll release something soon, but it's still speculation at this point. I would hope they do.

lol, maybe they just love blue. The next model will feature 4 shades of blue. ;)

I have no interest in being part of their debugging process unless I'm being compensated for it. It's as simple as that. If they gave me a unit for free, then I'd use it and be part of that process. There's no way on Earth I would pay them to do their debugging work for them. Not gonna happen.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #179 on: August 28, 2018, 02:29:19 pm »
It's funny, because I actually quite like the design of the DS1054Z and loathe that of the Siglent. The oval channel selection buttons drive me nuts. It's completely out of tune with the rest of the design.

The new Rigol 7000 has probably gone too far with its blue backlights and stuff but the DS1054Z seems about right to me. Test gear isn't supposed to be a fashion statement.

The Instek is fugly, yes.

The Siglent is no beauty. It has the same oversized dark screen bezel as the Instek (trying to make the screen look bigger than it is?). The grey panels on the front are horrible, IMHO - something about the title bars being the wrong color and not quite tall enough for the title text.

Black text on grey backgrounds is a big eww to me.

Pointlessly colored buttons that seem like they belong to one of the channels (ie. 'print' and 'default')? Who chose those? Do they have any idea what "color coding" is?

Whatever the reasons are for choosing Siglent over Rigol I wouldn't say "looks" are one of them.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #180 on: August 28, 2018, 02:32:36 pm »
I also think Rigol does have something new comming up, such company might started working in a new asic few years ago, knowing the ds1000z would need replacement at some point

There's no way they would design that ASIC without planning for a low-end version, not after the success of the DS1054Z (which must have made them a lot of money - they basically created a whole new market with it).
 

Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #181 on: August 28, 2018, 02:59:20 pm »
The Siglent is no beauty. It has the same oversized dark screen bezel as the Instek (trying to make the screen look bigger than it is?). The grey panels on the front are horrible, IMHO - something about the title bars being the wrong color and not quite tall enough for the title text.

To each their own regarding aesthetic, but that bezel statement simply isn't true. The bezels between the GDS-1004B and the SDS1004X-E series are nothing alike. The size, layout, and proportion of the Instek actually make the screen look much smaller by comparison even though they're all the same viewable size screen. The Siglent's black bezel covers the non-viewable area where the Instek doesn't cover any of the non-viewable area. The Instek implies a larger viewable area than it has; the bezel on the Siglent assures it isn't implying anything.
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Offline JS

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #182 on: August 28, 2018, 03:09:20 pm »
I also think Rigol does have something new comming up, such company might started working in a new asic few years ago, knowing the ds1000z would need replacement at some point

There's no way they would design that ASIC without planning for a low-end version, not after the success of the DS1054Z (which must have made them a lot of money - they basically created a whole new market with it).
I think you are saying nthe same thing I do... I think they will aim to be the mkst prize competitive option in the market, as they did at the point, with a full featured scope for cheap, with all the extra features the 1000z is missing but likely cheat in the non paper specs, as noise, as theh did at the time.

JS

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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #183 on: August 28, 2018, 03:16:33 pm »
Absolutely, everybody has their own taste. I agree, the ovals are a little weird.

But compare the X/Y control layouts. Siglent has obvious boxes with grey backgrounds, clearly outlining each section. Rigol uses awkward, asymmetrical lines that make no sense at all, and aren't clearly visible.

Obviously I don't think the Siglent is perfect since I want to make my own version of the overlay, but I don't hate it. I could live with it. The Rigol looks stupid to me.

This is all superficial, but it's something these companies should pay attention to. R&S seems to get this right. The RTB2004, for example, is a great looking scope.
I must admit I'm quite partial to the angular design of the DS1054Z. It's a little less boring than just the same plain boxes and in this case it seems to work quite well without any excessively strange parts that plague similar designs of the same manufacturer. That being said, the DS1054Z isn't know for its sophisticated UX. It's a bottom of the barrel bang for buck device and rough edges are to be expected. Siglent doesn't seem to be much different, generally speaking.

From the perspective of of the commercial side of it I think the design of the DS1054Z been a raving success. When the DS1054Z was introduced Rigol was gaining more fame quickly but not quite as well known as they are today. The distinct look has massively contributed to the succes of this model and the wider brand. It has given Rigol a face and is instantly recognizable, which is invaluable when you're trying to build a brand.

I agree the new R&S scopes are very nicely designed. Their other designs tended to be very well laid out but excessively boring boxes, but the new oscilloscopes have a lot of aesthetic appeal.
 

Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #184 on: August 28, 2018, 03:38:30 pm »
From the perspective of of the commercial side of it I think the design of the DS1054Z been a raving success. When the DS1054Z was introduced Rigol was gaining more fame quickly but not quite as well known as they are today. The distinct look has massively contributed to the succes of this model and the wider brand. It has given Rigol a face and is instantly recognizable, which is invaluable when you're trying to build a brand.

I think it had little to do with the design, and everything to do with the complete lack of competition in a market they basically invented. No doubt about it, they're perty smart.
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #185 on: August 28, 2018, 03:42:56 pm »
I think it had little to do with the design, and everything to do with the complete lack of competition in a market they basically invented. No doubt about it, they're perty smart.
I think both play a major role in the success. I don't think it would have been the icon it's now if it would have been generically mundane or butt ugly to most.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 04:18:42 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #186 on: August 28, 2018, 03:44:31 pm »
Rigol will soon have their new ASIC in a low-end model, so... meh.
:bullshit:
Using off-the-shelve parts will be cheaper in a low end oscilloscope so no way Rigol will go this route. I don't think Rigol will come up with a replacement for the DS1000Z any time soon. It still flies off the shelves so why would they?

From the perspective of of the commercial side of it I think the design of the DS1054Z been a raving success. When the DS1054Z was introduced Rigol was gaining more fame quickly but not quite as well known as they are today. The distinct look has massively contributed to the succes of this model and the wider brand. It has given Rigol a face and is instantly recognizable, which is invaluable when you're trying to build a brand.
I think you have a point here. Rigol's front panel design does set them apart.

I think it had little to do with the design, and everything to do with the complete lack of competition in a market they basically invented. No doubt about it, they're perty smart.
Rigol didn't invent the low end market! There have been cheap oscilloscopes for decades.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #187 on: August 28, 2018, 04:12:00 pm »
Rigol didn't invent the low end market! There have been cheap oscilloscopes for decades.

Seriously? I'm not talking about the garbage low-end market. I'm talking about the quality, entry-level scope market. There was nothing of that level of quality, in that price range before. Period. Hell, if you're going back decades, you can barely even compare the high-end scopes from 10 or 20 years ago against it, even with the 1054Z's faults. I tried. I looked at high-end scopes on the used markets, and most were still more expensive used, and pathetic on paper by comparison. Hell, I found a FRONT PANEL for one lame-by-comparison scope for more $$$ than the Rigol.

I'm not specifically a fan of either brand, nor do I have reason for bias, like some of our friends here. :box: I don't care at all about the relatively small price difference, so for me the Siglent wins this round (for now - we'll see how I feel when I have the new scope in hand). A year or two from now, once their next-gen scope is stable, Rigol will possibly win the next round (again). That's how honest competition works.
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Offline Old Printer

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #188 on: August 28, 2018, 04:48:05 pm »
I am just getting into tube amps, so I can work on my old Fender guitar amps. I have not been at this long enough to speak from experience, but i have read a lot and the consensus seems to be that a basic low BW analog scope is the tool for the job. I can see wanting a digital scope, I am going to get one myself, but I bought a couple old Teks first. I am interested to find out if an analog scope shows a better picture of tube amp signals, or whether a basic one is just adequate and cheaper. For now my AD2 gets me by on the digital front while I watch the 4 channel digital market grow.
Has anyone seen a compsarison of the Siglent & Rigol vs the GDS-1054B?  I really like the 4 individual channel knobs and I would really like HDMI or VGA output but that gets into another price bracket.
 

Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #189 on: August 28, 2018, 04:52:18 pm »
I am just getting into tube amps, so I can work on my old Fender guitar amps. I have not been at this long enough to speak from experience, but i have read a lot and the consensus seems to be that a basic low BW analog scope is the tool for the job. I can see wanting a digital scope, I am going to get one myself, but I bought a couple old Teks first. I am interested to find out if an analog scope shows a better picture of tube amp signals, or whether a basic one is just adequate and cheaper.

Adequate and cheaper is the answer. You can do most stuff for a tube guitar amp on a $100 used scope...assuming it's calibrated and fully operational.

I'm a doofus and like fancier things, that's why I'm looking at the DSOs...that and the other electronics stuff I'll potentially use it for.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #190 on: August 28, 2018, 07:01:08 pm »
Rigol didn't invent the low end market! There have been cheap oscilloscopes for decades.
Seriously? I'm not talking about the garbage low-end market. I'm talking about the quality, entry-level scope market. There was nothing of that level of quality, in that price range before.
Sure there was. You make it look like the Rigol DS1000Z has set some kind of standard but you are forgetting that:
1) The Rigol DS1000Z isn't exactly a very good oscilloscope when looking at performance & features and it has taken years to get all the bugs fixed.
2) There are and have been other oscilloscopes from various manufacturers which also sell / sold very well into the entry level market.
3) When everyone was still working with analog oscilloscopes you could buy cheap low end analog oscilloscope as well. The only thing that changed is that technology has improved.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #191 on: August 28, 2018, 07:40:04 pm »
Sure there was. You make it look like the Rigol DS1000Z has set some kind of standard but you are forgetting that:
1) The Rigol DS1000Z isn't exactly a very good oscilloscope when looking at performance & features and it has taken years to get all the bugs fixed.
2) There are and have been other oscilloscopes from various manufacturers which also sell / sold very well into the entry level market.
3) When everyone was still working with analog oscilloscopes you could buy cheap low end analog oscilloscope as well. The only thing that changed is that technology has improved.

I believe you're joking now. :palm:

1) Include price in that equation, and you've had zero competition, literally until now.
2) None of them with the specs of the Rigol. Price Point + Technology Level = Niche Market. Cornered from 2014 to 2018. I'm guessing they're still dominating that market for now.
3) Yes, the tech has improved. That's the point. High or low-end, most of those scopes you refer to can't keep up with the entry-level Rigol from 2014.

You can still buy cheap low-end analog scopes. That's not the point. They're not as good, and they never were! You can make biased statements about the poor quality and performance of the Rigol all day long, but you prove nothing with generalized baseless claims. Obviously the 2014 $350 scope's front-end isn't going to be as clean as a current production $12,000 scope's front-end. That's a pointless comparison. Even comparing it to a newer $500 scope's front-end, you should expect the newer, more expensive scope to be cleaner. This seems like it should be obvious.

This, by the way, coming from somebody who returned his Rigol to buy a Siglent, because I believe it to be superior. That doesn't mean the Rigol doesn't have its strengths, and that doesn't change the past 4 years of the Rigol's dominance in its niche.
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Offline SMB784

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #192 on: August 28, 2018, 08:25:46 pm »
Sure there was. You make it look like the Rigol DS1000Z has set some kind of standard but you are forgetting that:
1) The Rigol DS1000Z isn't exactly a very good oscilloscope when looking at performance & features and it has taken years to get all the bugs fixed.
2) There are and have been other oscilloscopes from various manufacturers which also sell / sold very well into the entry level market.
3) When everyone was still working with analog oscilloscopes you could buy cheap low end analog oscilloscope as well. The only thing that changed is that technology has improved.

I believe you're joking now. :palm:

1) Include price in that equation, and you've had zero competition, literally until now.
2) None of them with the specs of the Rigol. Price Point + Technology Level = Niche Market. Cornered from 2014 to 2018. I'm guessing they're still dominating that market for now.
3) Yes, the tech has improved. That's the point. High or low-end, most of those scopes you refer to can't keep up with the entry-level Rigol from 2014.

You can still buy cheap low-end analog scopes. That's not the point. They're not as good, and they never were! You can make biased statements about the poor quality and performance of the Rigol all day long, but you prove nothing with generalized baseless claims. Obviously the 2014 $350 scope's front-end isn't going to be as clean as a current production $12,000 scope's front-end. That's a pointless comparison. Even comparing it to a newer $500 scope's front-end, you should expect the newer, more expensive scope to be cleaner. This seems like it should be obvious.

This, by the way, coming from somebody who returned his Rigol to buy a Siglent, because I believe it to be superior. That doesn't mean the Rigol doesn't have its strengths, and that doesn't change the past 4 years of the Rigol's dominance in its niche.

You've made a solid decision based on your specific needs and the known facts about your instrument of choice.  Rest assured that you have made the right choice, and I'm certain that device will serve you well for many years.
 
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #193 on: August 28, 2018, 08:49:28 pm »
Has anyone seen a compsarison of the Siglent & Rigol vs the GDS-1054B?  I really like the 4 individual channel knobs and I would really like HDMI or VGA output but that gets into another price bracket.
Don't thinks one has been done yet.

WRT a video output, the 4ch X-E's fast LAN and WiFi performance is such the inbuilt webserver provides great remote display performance. Some demonstration of this can be see in Jason's video starting from here:
https://youtu.be/Cxh_Liay09E?t=52
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Offline wpwrak

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #194 on: August 28, 2018, 09:29:15 pm »
Sure there was.

For example the Rigol DS1000CD/D/E series: 1 GSa/s (this is still the same in the entry-level segment today), 1 MSa memory (as one would expect, this has gone up since, 12/24 MSa for the DS1000Z). Decent enough build quality and came with borderline (*) decent PC connectivity (USB), while others had that as an option, RS232, or not at all. (* at least in the 1000CD, it's very slow. I suspect there is a UART-USB translation in the scope.)

CD and D also has digital channels, though at least the CD had so poor signal integrity that you had to be quite desperate in order to try to use it. (I have an 1102CD, which has now been replaced by the Siglent 1104X-E.)

All these had only two analog channels. There was also a four-channel 1000B series, but with short capture memory. The main new features (for the low-cost segment) of the 1000Z were to combine four analog channels with long memory, and to add Ethernet. So it's really just an evolution, but one that hit a sweet spot. And of course the ability to unlock expensive options for free made it incredibly attractive. I think this may have been the real killer feature.
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #195 on: August 28, 2018, 11:01:42 pm »
For example the Rigol DS1000CD/D/E series: 1 GSa/s (this is still the same in the entry-level segment today), 1 MSa memory (as one would expect, this has gone up since, 12/24 MSa for the DS1000Z). Decent enough build quality and came with borderline (*) decent PC connectivity (USB), while others had that as an option, RS232, or not at all. (* at least in the 1000CD, it's very slow. I suspect there is a UART-USB translation in the scope.)

CD and D also has digital channels, though at least the CD had so poor signal integrity that you had to be quite desperate in order to try to use it. (I have an 1102CD, which has now been replaced by the Siglent 1104X-E.)

All these had only two analog channels. There was also a four-channel 1000B series, but with short capture memory. The main new features (for the low-cost segment) of the 1000Z were to combine four analog channels with long memory, and to add Ethernet. So it's really just an evolution, but one that hit a sweet spot. And of course the ability to unlock expensive options for free made it incredibly attractive. I think this may have been the real killer feature.

Right. Evolution that created a niche. None of those models compare to the 1000Z. They were 2ch not 4, none had close to the memory even without the unlocks. Throw all the unlockable features including  deeper memory into the mix, and there was even less competition. I think that puts the competition in a negative somehow. ;)

Now the main direct competitor is the Instek 1054B, which is a little better on paper, and has the added benefit of separate vertical controls. For a few bucks more the Siglent beats them both on paper. That's evolution and competition within the same niche.

I mean, look at Dave's videos. Every time he's torn down a new scope anywhere near that price, he had to compare it to, or comment about the 1054Z.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #196 on: August 29, 2018, 02:19:29 am »
I finally bought an x100 probe. If anybody else is looking for one, I got the BK Precision PR2000B (2kV 200MHz) on Amazon for $48. They're over $100 everywhere else I looked. And they're red! ;)
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #197 on: August 29, 2018, 03:14:22 am »
Saweet! :-+
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #198 on: August 29, 2018, 07:44:33 am »
Rigol didn't invent the low end market! There have been cheap oscilloscopes for decades.

Sure, and there were automobiles before the Ford model T...

 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #199 on: August 29, 2018, 07:55:52 am »
As a side question. How is the noise on the new Rigol DS7000 series? This is much lower han lower Rigol series and Siglent?
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #200 on: August 29, 2018, 09:52:56 am »
As a side question. How is the noise on the new Rigol DS7000 series? This is much lower han lower Rigol series and Siglent?

I'm not sure anybody has one yet (apart from Dave).
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #201 on: August 29, 2018, 03:29:09 pm »
As a side question. How is the noise on the new Rigol DS7000 series? This is much lower han lower Rigol series and Siglent?

From Dave's video.
This may give some preliminary idea before further tests (if we can see real professional grade tests and measurements or just entertainment show as usually - this we know later)

Note that in this image there is BW limit on. I have not get any answer what is BW limit 20M, 100M or what? Also it looks like there is not much sample data on image...only 25k one wfm.
If it is 20M... better that I do not say anything if it looks high or low... (need note that 1mV/div is magnified from 4mV/div what is most sensitive full resolution)

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #202 on: August 29, 2018, 03:46:31 pm »
Note that in this image there is BW limit on. I have not get any answer what is BW limit 20M, 100M or what? Also it looks like there is not much sample data on image...only 25k one wfm.
If it is 20M... better that I do not say anything if it looks high or low... (need note that 1mV/div is magnified from 4mV/div what is most sensitive full resolution)

It has two settings : 20 MHz and 250MHz.
But, unfortunately when making DS7000 they made it as bad as Keysight DSOX3000T, which also has 1 mV/DIVand 2 mV/DIV magnified in software from 4 mV/DIV, and pretty high noise.
Both of those scopes are fast, but not low noise scopes. Actually, DS7000, in many ways is "inspired" by philosophy of Keysight DSOX 3000/4000 series: high wfms/sec, hardware decoding, etc etc..
Except they put much more memory on it... Low noise, high sensitivity input channels were not high on a priority list..
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #203 on: August 29, 2018, 05:59:41 pm »
....Keysight DSOX3000T also has 1 mV/DIVand 2 mV/DIV magnified in software from 4 mV/DIV and pretty high noise.
...
Low noise, high sensitivity input channels were not high on a priority list..

Maybe it's simply not a problem for real work. Maybe it's mostly something for volt-nuts to obsess over in forums.

Realistically, how much of a problem is <1mV of noise on (eg.) a 5V system? A 1V system?

Even a lowly DS1054Z has a "high res" mode which will eliminate all random noise on a repetitive signal by averaging multiple waves together. Any noise you see in high res mode is in the signal, not in the 'scope.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #204 on: August 29, 2018, 06:19:35 pm »
....Keysight DSOX3000T also has 1 mV/DIVand 2 mV/DIV magnified in software from 4 mV/DIV and pretty high noise.
...
Low noise, high sensitivity input channels were not high on a priority list..
Maybe it's simply not a problem for real work. Maybe it's mostly something for volt-nuts to obsess over in forums.

Realistically, how much of a problem is <1mV of noise on (eg.) a 5V system? A 1V system?

Even a lowly DS1054Z has a "high res" mode which will eliminate all random noise on a repetitive signal by averaging multiple waves together. Any noise you see in high res mode is in the signal, not in the 'scope.
If you did any real work with an oscilloscope you'd know the answer: noise does matter because the noise doesn't get smaller when setting the input to a less sensitive setting. So it is easy to get a band of noise across the screen (I hated my Agilent DSO7104 for that even with BW limit on) which obscures the interesting part of a signal. Try to do accurate cursor measurements on a band of noise. Sure high-res mode can do some filtering but you get aliasing artefacts when zooming out and usually you can't use it together with peak detect so you miss other parts in a signal. All in all the less noise an oscilloscope has the more convenient it is to use.
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Offline JS

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #205 on: August 29, 2018, 09:48:39 pm »
....Keysight DSOX3000T also has 1 mV/DIVand 2 mV/DIV magnified in software from 4 mV/DIV and pretty high noise.
...
Low noise, high sensitivity input channels were not high on a priority list..

Maybe it's simply not a problem for real work. Maybe it's mostly something for volt-nuts to obsess over in forums.

Realistically, how much of a problem is <1mV of noise on (eg.) a 5V system? A 1V system?

Even a lowly DS1054Z has a "high res" mode which will eliminate all random noise on a repetitive signal by averaging multiple waves together. Any noise you see in high res mode is in the signal, not in the 'scope.
  High res doesn't do that, average does... In average you can program the number of captures to average. High res uses oversampling or a moving average. In both cases it will filter out the input noise as well as the random noise from your source which you might want to look at. Also, you can't use average for single shot capture.

  Lower sensitivity ranges only differ in not being digitally amplified, so only the first ranges, which are zoom of a higher range gets higher noise, then the noise stays pretty much the same, could change a bit depending on the gain of each stage but can even get higher at some point where the Eon dominates over Ein.

  You could use a preamp to go to the lowest ranges and keep the noise as the others, but you can't get very much from them, and they are kind of a pain, expensive if you buy one or hard to build properly.

I don't know why scopes don't have other filtering options, if you want to look at an audio signal a 100kHz BW limit could do a lot of good and implementing this in SW could be quite nice. Having one filter or two per decade would be great. High res does something like this but as I said it's not very straight forward knowing what it's doing, and as you don't know you don't know what it could be doing behind, it will change the response as you change the horizontal scale. With math you also can do something like that but it's not great, sone times helps to have a better look at the signal but doesn't quite cut it.

JS

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Online 2N3055

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #206 on: August 29, 2018, 10:00:45 pm »
....Keysight DSOX3000T also has 1 mV/DIVand 2 mV/DIV magnified in software from 4 mV/DIV and pretty high noise.
...
Low noise, high sensitivity input channels were not high on a priority list..

Maybe it's simply not a problem for real work. Maybe it's mostly something for volt-nuts to obsess over in forums.

Realistically, how much of a problem is <1mV of noise on (eg.) a 5V system? A 1V system?

Even a lowly DS1054Z has a "high res" mode which will eliminate all random noise on a repetitive signal by averaging multiple waves together. Any noise you see in high res mode is in the signal, not in the 'scope.

It depends on what you do.. If you work with analog, low level sensors, power supply stuff.. Yes, than it might be important. I agree that for general work you might not need it. And yes. Hires mode helps a lot.  It will also reduce effective sampling frequency for same factor. So you end up with a 5 MHz scope.  Real low noise and sensitivity with full bandwith cannot be replaced sometimes.  I have a real 12 bit scope and it is amazing what detail can you see sometimes...

Point is, I wasn't criticizing, quite the opposite. Many people swear by Keysight DSOX3000T series as "best scope to use" and it has same input sensitivity specs as ds7000.  So it might not be important to many people out there.  Many people need good MSO for their mixed signal work, not for low level analog stuff.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #207 on: August 29, 2018, 10:21:39 pm »
I don't know why scopes don't have other filtering options, if you want to look at an audio signal a 100kHz BW limit could do a lot of good and implementing this in SW could be quite nice.
GW Instek and MicSig oscilloscopes have freely settable filters (low-pass, high-pass and band-pass) so it already exists and these are very useful for some purposes. Not just for audio but try looking at a signal with a noisy DC-DC converter nearby.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #208 on: August 30, 2018, 01:03:08 am »
I'm reading the manual for the Siglent while I'm waiting for it to arrive. A couple things I noticed I like better already.

For example, on the Rigol, to set the scope to default you have to press Storage, and then press Default on the soft buttons.

On the Siglent it's a single "Default" button in a good spot. That works well for me.

One thing I think is stupid that the Siglent shows in the manual:

"Curr means the current memory depth."

Why wouldn't they just write Mem? Cur means a crappy dog. Is that what they want their scopes associated with? Crappy dogs?  :palm:
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #209 on: August 30, 2018, 01:48:01 am »
I'm reading the manual for the Siglent while I'm waiting for it to arrive. A couple things I noticed I like better already.

For example, on the Rigol, to set the scope to default you have to press Storage, and then press Default on the soft buttons.

On the Siglent it's a single "Default" button in a good spot. That works well for me.
Have a study up on User definable Default, a very useful feature.  ;)

Quote
One thing I think is stupid that the Siglent shows in the manual:

"Curr means the current memory depth."

Why wouldn't they just write Mem? Cur means a crappy dog. Is that what they want their scopes associated with? Crappy dogs?  :palm:
Page # ?
Please offer a suggested manual edit ?
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #210 on: August 30, 2018, 02:03:12 am »
On the Siglent it's a single "Default" button in a good spot. That works well for me.
Have a study up on User definable Default, a very useful feature.  ;)
I've heard it has lots of customizable buttons and such, haven't gotten that far yet in the manuals. But I like the default button, default. ;) I actually use the auto set and default buttons. They're both useful to me. I don't see the benefit of twiddling first and tuning later. I like to hit auto set and twiddle after.

Quote
One thing I think is stupid that the Siglent shows in the manual:

"Curr means the current memory depth."

Why wouldn't they just write Mem? Cur means a crappy dog. Is that what they want their scopes associated with? Crappy dogs?  :palm:
Page # ?
Please offer a suggested manual edit ?

PDF page 47, listed as page 23 in the document. #8

8. Sampling Rate/ Memory Depth
Display the current sampling rate and memory depth. Sa means the current sampling rate and Curr means the current memory depth.


Obviously it should say "Mem" for memory depth. Why would it say Curr for the word Current when it isn't measuring current? Does that make any sense? The simples answer is the correct one. Sa, or preferably Sam for sample, and Mem for memory.
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #211 on: August 30, 2018, 02:29:46 am »
Josh, does copy editing Siglent's manual count as "free debugging?" ;D (You know I had to ask.)
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Offline wpwrak

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #212 on: August 30, 2018, 02:43:02 am »
Josh, does copy editing Siglent's manual count as "free debugging?" ;D

He's not talking about an error in the manual. "Curr" is what appears on the screen, and I agree that "Mem" would be much clearer.
 
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Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #213 on: August 30, 2018, 02:58:07 am »
Josh, does copy editing Siglent's manual count as "free debugging?" ;D

He's not talking about an error in the manual. "Curr" is what appears on the screen, and I agree that "Mem" would be much clearer.
Hmmm, I see both points of view as in Curr as pertaining to Mem depth with the 'current' setting and the same applies to the sampling rate wherein it changes too due to scope settings and/or active channels.

Whatever they're called there will be some confusion for a DSO newbie. Curr, Pres, Exist, Mem and so on as each is not a static value. Curr clearly points to 'with current settings'.

Interesting point though, maybe it should migrate into the main thread about these scopes so those that have posted there can get a chance to add their 2c.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #214 on: August 30, 2018, 11:05:48 am »
If you work with analog, low level sensors, power supply stuff.. Yes, than it might be important.

In those cases "low noise" isn't enough. To make it useful you also need really good DC offset ability, etc.

(I suspect this is the real reason the DSOX3000T/DS7000 designers haven't made any special efforts to reduce noise - opamps that can recover at >5Ghz when massively overloaded are difficult to find so there's no point in trying to please the "low noise" market segment)

And yes. Hires mode helps a lot.  It will also reduce effective sampling frequency for same factor. So you end up with a 5 MHz scope.

Jitter aside, the rise times, etc., will be identical in hires mode so I'm not sure where that number came from.

Real low noise and sensitivity with full bandwith cannot be replaced sometimes.

True, but if you really need that then you have to buy a 12-bit 'scope.

The bottom bit of a high-speed ADC is always a bit random so an 8-bit ADC leads to approx. 1mV of noise.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #215 on: August 30, 2018, 11:11:35 am »
I'm reading the manual for the Siglent while I'm waiting for it to arrive. A couple things I noticed I like better already.

For example, on the Rigol, to set the scope to default you have to press Storage, and then press Default on the soft buttons.

On the Siglent it's a single "Default" button in a good spot. That works well for me.

Be sure to report back on how annoying it is to choose/toggle the on-screen measurements,
 

Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #216 on: August 30, 2018, 11:31:34 am »
Josh, does copy editing Siglent's manual count as "free debugging?" ;D (You know I had to ask.)

 :-DD Hahahaha, that's a good point. But I'll give them this one for free if I don't have to stare at something that dumb on the screen. ;)
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #217 on: August 30, 2018, 11:38:36 am »
Be sure to report back on how annoying it is to choose/toggle the on-screen measurements,

I know what you're referring to, but I don't know if I'll use most of them? The Siglent's menu is customizable from what I've read, and when you press Measure, FFT is supposed to be one of the first things that's supposed to show up. We'll see. If I find it annoying, I'll let you know. I didn't press any of the left side buttons on the Rigol, even though the little pictures were cute.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #218 on: August 30, 2018, 11:44:39 am »
Josh, does copy editing Siglent's manual count as "free debugging?" ;D

He's not talking about an error in the manual. "Curr" is what appears on the screen, and I agree that "Mem" would be much clearer.
Hmmm, I see both points of view as in Curr as pertaining to Mem depth with the 'current' setting and the same applies to the sampling rate wherein it changes too due to scope settings and/or active channels.

Whatever they're called there will be some confusion for a DSO newbie. Curr, Pres, Exist, Mem and so on as each is not a static value. Curr clearly points to 'with current settings'.

Interesting point though, maybe it should migrate into the main thread about these scopes so those that have posted there can get a chance to add their 2c.

Both settings are "Curr" - what other point of view is there? Setting 1 is "Current Sample Rate" and setting 2 is "Current Memory Depth." There's a couple of different ways to abbreviate both settings that make sense. Neither have anything to do with crappy dogs. I speak a little Chinese. I know what left over Chinglish looks like.

Xiexie,
Josh
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #219 on: August 30, 2018, 12:33:50 pm »
Jitter aside, the rise times, etc., will be identical in hires mode so I'm not sure where that number came from.

"High Resolution"
The average of n captured sample points is recorded as one waveform
sample. Averaging reduces the noise, the result is a more precise
waveform with higher vertical resolution.

"Average" The average is calculated from the data of the current acquisition and
a number of consecutive acquisitions before. The method reduces
random noise. It requires a stable, triggered and repetitive signal.
The number of acquisitions for average calculation is defined with
"No. of Averages"

That is from Lecroy manual but description is accurate.