Author Topic: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?  (Read 55590 times)

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Offline Old Printer

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2018, 12:41:21 pm »
I read a lot about tube amps, I have a Vibrolux Reverb and a Vibro Champ that I bought new in the early 70's and after spending much of their life in the closet they are in need of recapping. Most of the old school amp guys feel a basic analog scope of 20Mhz is all that is needed for valve amp work. I am sure that goes out the window when you switch to solid state and digital effects. I have a couple old Tektronix scopes, but have heard from several places that off-brands like Leader and Iwatsu can be better values. If you have said you already have one of these I missed it.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2018, 12:48:51 pm »
I recently bought the DS1054Z and a Tenma 72-505 audio generator (the Tenma is great, and all I need for guitar amp testing). My question is whether the Siglent will really benefit me enough that I should return the Rigol and pay more for the Siglent. So far the only 2 real world benefits I see for my uses are 1. it looks prettier (I like the simplicity of the layout) and 2. the web interface is cool (even though I probably won't ever use much if at all). The better multi-channel sampling rate is an obvious plus, but where I'm mostly using 1 channel at a time, I won't normally benefit enough for the investment for that alone. I'm certainly not going to invest in the Siglent add-ons, at that point I'd rather invest in another scope.

The "better multi-channel sampling rate" won't make any difference at all at guitar amp frequencies.

You might be better off with a better FFT than the Rigol's (do you ever do FFTs?) but neither will compete with a Bode Plot done by a simple PC sound card.

So, no. Stick with the Rigol if you already have it (IMHO).
 
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Offline BillB

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2018, 02:20:23 pm »
I've got an SDS1104X, fully hacked, and it is a great scope.  I've also got the Logic Analyzer even after Tautech tried to talk me out of getting it!  (He's not just a Siglent salesman  ;) - I think he offers a lot of fair and valuable input)   But, frankly, it sounds like overkill for your needs.  The $170 difference would only seem to make sense if you were going to seriously explore or expand your use case.  I'm not even sure why you would buy a 4 channel scope?     
 
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Offline SMB784

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2018, 03:28:33 pm »
I thought I'd be able to find unbiased, experienced, and useful opinions here

Nope. Mostly religion and Siglent dealers posting here.

For about three years the Rigol was way out on it's own in terms of bang/buck.

Now the Siglent has arrived, Rigol finally has a competitor but it's also about 40% more money. The price difference tells you everything you really need to know.

Me? I say two things:
a) Four channels good, two channels bad.
b) The difference between owning an oscilloscope/not owning an oscilloscope is like night and day. The difference between Rigol and Siglent? Nowhere near as much. Sure, the Siglent is nicer, but for for the same price you can have a Rigol plus a decent soldering iron or power supply and a couple of ANENG multimeters. If you're just starting out then that seems a better deal, a decent soldering iron or power supply will make a much bigger difference to your life than owning a Siglent will.

Can we talk about politics too? ;)

I'm not starting out, I've had a bench setup for a couple decades, but put off buying a scope because I didn't need one right away and then didn't know what to get, and didn't want an old school scope (which is all I really need, but I like newer tech). These days I have an Aoyue 2703A+ iron, and it's great. Toroid ISB-060W isolation transformer, a Tekpower TP3005P power supply, and lots of other little test equipment for my needs. So it really comes down to what scope will suit me without being wasteful.

I recently bought the DS1054Z and a Tenma 72-505 audio generator (the Tenma is great, and all I need for guitar amp testing). My question is whether the Siglent will really benefit me enough that I should return the Rigol and pay more for the Siglent. So far the only 2 real world benefits I see for my uses are 1. it looks prettier (I like the simplicity of the layout) and 2. the web interface is cool (even though I probably won't ever use it much if at all). The better multi-channel sampling rate is an obvious plus, but where I'm mostly using 1 channel at a time, I won't normally benefit enough for the investment for that alone. I'm certainly not going to invest in the Siglent add-ons, at that point I'd rather invest in another scope.

Thanks,
Josh

I concur with Fungus on this subject, if you're looking for a simply great deal for starting an electronics hobby, go with the Rigol and a bundle of other goodies to get you going.  Your money is definitely better spent that way if you are starting out.

Having owned both the Rigol DS1054Z and the Siglent SDS1104X-E I can safely say that they are both great scopes and an amazing deal.  The Siglent definitely has the edge at the moment when it comes to specs, and in my own opinion the Siglent price/performance is superior to the Rigol.  However, for a lower frequency application like audio stuff I would say that the performance is about the same, and the price point definitely makes the Rigol the more compelling option.

So, if you are planning to use the scope primarily (and perhaps only) for your stated application, I would say the Rigol is the better option and you probably wont see any added benefit from spending more money.  However, if you ever want to do something at higher frequencies, the higher bandwidth ceiling, better sampling per channel, higher WFM updates per second, and better memory per channel will be a tremendous boon to your bench.
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2018, 03:40:37 pm »
Having owned both the Rigol DS1054Z and the Siglent SDS1104X-E I can safely say that they are both great scopes and an amazing deal.  The Siglent definitely has the edge at the moment when it comes to specs, and in my own opinion the Siglent price/performance is superior to the Rigol.  However, for a lower frequency application like audio stuff I would say that the performance is about the same, and the price point definitely makes the Rigol the more compelling option.

So, if you are planning to use the scope primarily (and perhaps only) for your stated application, I would say the Rigol is the better option and you probably wont see any added benefit from spending more money.  However, if you ever want to do something at higher frequencies, the higher bandwidth ceiling, better sampling per channel, higher WFM updates per second, and better memory per channel will be a tremendous boon to your bench.

Thanks, this is helpful. My interest for this really is limited to guitar amps and music toys. I can't even think of anything I'd be interested in using this for beyond that. For a living I do graphic and web design, with a guitar & amp business on the side. I don't have time to venture into anything else. Maybe I'll eventually read something on this site that will pique my interest into another area and I'll upgrade in the future? Who knows.

Thanks,
Josh
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2018, 05:35:51 pm »
I read a lot about tube amps, I have a Vibrolux Reverb and a Vibro Champ that I bought new in the early 70's and after spending much of their life in the closet they are in need of recapping. Most of the old school amp guys feel a basic analog scope of 20Mhz is all that is needed for valve amp work. I am sure that goes out the window when you switch to solid state and digital effects. I have a couple old Tektronix scopes, but have heard from several places that off-brands like Leader and Iwatsu can be better values. If you have said you already have one of these I missed it.

Yeah, that's what everybody in the industry goes for. Cheap, old school 20Mhz scopes. A fairly well-known amp tech recommends buying a used scope for $100. That's not for me at all. I may never use many of the features of this scope, but I do like some of the extras I've used so far (for example, measuring the input frequency).

What brand caps are you going to use on the amps? I wouldn't recommend buying into the brand hype guitar nuts get addicted too. Use your EE brain and stick with 1 brand of high quality caps per amp unless you really need the vintage aesthetic. ;)

Thanks,
Josh
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2018, 08:27:12 pm »
Just to throw this out there, since I probably don't need 4 channels (yes, I know most of you love 4 channels ;) )  - what do you think about the SDS1202X-E vs the 1054Z for me?

The difference in price will be about $25 more excluding any potential shipping... Should I consider that 2 channel model for an FFT function I might not use, or stick with the Rigol for 4 channels I might not use? I'm such a pain in the ass, I know.  :-DD

Thanks,
Josh
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2018, 08:36:04 pm »
Just to throw this out there, since I probably don't need 4 channels (yes, I know most of you love 4 channels ;) )  - what do you think about the SDS1202X-E vs the 1054Z for me?

The difference in price will be about $25 more excluding any potential shipping... Should I consider that 2 channel model for an FFT function I might not use, or stick with the Rigol for 4 channels I might not use? I'm such a pain in the ass, I know.  :-DD

If we're going down that road you should probably get the GW-Instek - four channels and a better FFT.  :)

Seriously though: A PC sound input will do a much better FFT than the Siglent/Rigol/GW-Instek ever can (a 16 bit ADC will win every time!) but there's no way you can add a couple of extra channels to a 2-channel 'scope.
 
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2018, 08:51:31 pm »
Just to throw this out there, since I probably don't need 4 channels (yes, I know most of you love 4 channels ;) )  - what do you think about the SDS1202X-E vs the 1054Z for me?

The difference in price will be about $25 more excluding any potential shipping... Should I consider that 2 channel model for an FFT function I might not use, or stick with the Rigol for 4 channels I might not use? I'm such a pain in the ass, I know.  :-DD

Thanks,
Josh
Check the comparison chart in the first post here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2018, 09:32:27 pm »
Uh oh. I might have found something useful in the SDS1104X-E's favor. It looks like that can handle 400VDC input according to the datasheet, and the Rigol only 300VDC. Am I reading that right?

Assuming I'm reading that right, that might be useful. Or should I be more interested in a differential scope for that voltage level? A few spots on my amps go above 300, usually not above 350 for most circuits I build. I dunno if I'd ever connect there, but, ya know...or never know.
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2018, 09:39:45 pm »
Uh oh. I might have found something useful in the SDS1104X-E's favor. It looks like that can handle 400VDC input according to the datasheet, and the Rigol only 300VDC. Am I reading that right?

Assuming I'm reading that right, that might be useful. Or should I be more interested in a differential scope for that voltage level? A few spots on my amps go above 300, usually not above 350 for most circuits I build. I dunno if I'd ever connect there, but, ya know...or never know.
The risk is if you should mistakenly use the probe on a 1:1 setting. Hence my mention earlier that some prefer fixed attenuation probes.
However when we go probing HV we should always double, er no...... triple check our setup.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2018, 10:05:37 pm »
The risk is if you should mistakenly use the probe on a 1:1 setting. Hence my mention earlier that some prefer fixed attenuation probes.
However when we go probing HV we should always double, er no...... triple check our setup.

A piece of tape can make a probe fixed attenuation. ;)
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2018, 10:20:19 pm »
Uh oh. I might have found something useful in the SDS1104X-E's favor. It looks like that can handle 400VDC input according to the datasheet, and the Rigol only 300VDC. Am I reading that right?

Yes, but... that's the raw input. You'll normally be using a 10x probe so the input can be up to 3000V.

(and you should be using special probes long before you get that high - the Rigol supplied probes aren't rated for that sort of voltage).

The risk is if you should mistakenly use the probe on a 1:1 setting. Hence my mention earlier that some prefer fixed attenuation probes.

Yep. If you work on anything over 100V it's definitely a good idea to get a couple of fixed 10x probes for daily use to avoid accidents - you hardly ever need the 1x setting anyway (in fact I don't think I've ever used it).


« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 11:02:18 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2018, 10:23:42 pm »
when we go probing HV we should always double, er no...... triple check our setup.

A piece of tape can make a probe fixed attenuation. ;)

Or some hot glue.

 
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2018, 10:37:19 pm »
The risk is if you should mistakenly use the probe on a 1:1 setting. Hence my mention earlier that some prefer fixed attenuation probes.
However when we go probing HV we should always double, er no...... triple check our setup.

A piece of tape can make a probe fixed attenuation. ;)
Rather, for the instrument and my safety I use a 100:1 probe on anything over ~150V.
Remember most switchable probes in 1:1 mode are only rated to 300V and normally to 600V in 10:1 mode.

I prefer a higher safety margin especially when probing high energy sources like something that controls mains power.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2018, 12:24:26 am »
Cool, so the probes handle the voltage, and I don't need to worry about the input voltage in 10:1 or 100:1 as long as I'm within spec of the probes. That's what I originally thought, but I read some comments while researching the Instek as an alternative and somebody commented about that and the Rigol both only having 300V inputs, and that threw me off. Oops.  |O

I ordered a couple Pico TA131 probes. I'm not opposed to super-glueing and taping the switches to be safe.

Any recommendations on a 100:1 probe?
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Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2018, 12:53:56 am »

Any recommendations on a 100:1 probe?
None in particular.
They need to be able to compensate to cover the input capacitance of the scope inputs and you would be wise to at least get scope BW or better.
You won't need to spend much as I've seen them for under $40 and you don't need the flashiest for audio work.
Just check they come with a ground spring and tip sleeves in the accessories pack.
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Offline GregDunn

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2018, 01:46:07 am »
Just to throw this out there, since I probably don't need 4 channels (yes, I know most of you love 4 channels ;) )  - what do you think about the SDS1202X-E vs the 1054Z for me?

I used a 15 MHz Tek scope for decades on audio gear - it's far higher bandwidth than you should ever need for audio.  Even the PWM frequencies of Class D amps are far below the BW limit on these older scopes.

But speaking of audio and high power amps: if you ever plan to work on a bridge mode amp and verify the output, there's three channels used up right away (input plus 2 channels in math difference mode to measure the output) plus any other signal that you're trying to track down during troubleshooting.  I never really thought about a 4 channel scope before, and now I use 2-3 channels at a time for pretty much everything.  I know not everyone goes down this path, but I'd never cut corners on a piece of test gear; sometimes that upgrade becomes very desirable once you start using the equipment and recognize its potential use.
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2018, 02:15:30 am »
Any opinions on these scopes?:

Cal Test CT2707
BK Precision PR100A
TPI P250R

They all spec about the same, but I dunno how they test in real life.

Thanks,
Josh
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2018, 02:49:42 am »
Any opinions on these scopes?:

Cal Test CT2707
BK Precision PR100A
TPI P250R

They all spec about the same, but I dunno how they test in real life.

Thanks,
Josh
Any will be fine and they're all probably from the same maker.

Now which would I buy and why ?
The red one.

Got a couple of 100x probes in my probe bag and guess which one is easiest to find ?
When connected to a scope, guess which one is seen at a glance to identify what could be an HV connection ?

My 2c.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2018, 02:51:32 am »
Any will be fine and they're all probably from the same maker.

Now which would I buy and why ?
The red one.

Got a couple of 100x probes in my probe bag and guess which one is easiest to find ?
When connected to a scope, guess which one is seen at a glance to identify what could be an HV connection ?

My 2c.

That's exactly what I was thinking! I like the red one. :-DD
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2018, 02:54:17 am »
Any will be fine and they're all probably from the same maker.

Now which would I buy and why ?
The red one.

Got a couple of 100x probes in my probe bag and guess which one is easiest to find ?
When connected to a scope, guess which one is seen at a glance to identify what could be an HV connection ?

My 2c.

That's exactly what I was thinking! I like the red one. :-DD
Some things are really simple, right ?  ;D
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2018, 10:30:20 pm »
I hate to admit it, but I think the Siglent SDS1104X-E might be winning me over. I've been watching too many of Dave's videos and I've heard him say a couple times now about the shared 1G not being enough for 4 channels at 100Mhz...and prior to seeing any of this, I was told to find a minimum of 400M per channel, so if I believe that I'll ever do more than 2 channels...I may have the excuse I need. ;)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 10:55:37 pm by KungFuJosh »
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Offline JS

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2018, 01:41:44 am »
I hate to admit it, but I think the Siglent SDS1104X-E might be winning me over. I've been watching too many of Dave's videos and I've heard him say a couple times now about the shared 1G not being enough for 4 channels at 100Mhz...and prior to seeing any of this, I was told to find a minimum of 400M per channel, so if I believe that I'll ever do more than 2 channels...I may have the excuse I need. ;)
Only if you plan to use 4 chanels at 100MHz BW signal. If using 2 channels the rigol has 500MSa/s which should be enough for a 100MHz signal, so still useful there but only using 2 channels. While the siglent using 2 channels you can get 1GSa/s, and using only one channel both 1GSa/s.

I went for the Rigol because was waaay cheaper to get for me, I would have to pay twice to get the Signlent, as shipping rates from stores where it was available to ship to me were way higher, like 3 times what I payed for the Rigol shipping. YMMV here, so with a closer price the fight is open. Then there are a few other differences, the bode plotting looks great, probably better with a dedicated signal generator than the optional one for the scope, but still not great as it has many limitations. The ability to add the logic analyzer later is a nice one too, for having a MSO as the time comes, and money and needs agreed on this, but is an expensive option to have a logic analyzer compared to many other out there, and going to the PC as usual as I do I can mix them there (analog and digital) for the time where it's needed)

JS
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2018, 02:05:21 am »
Only if you plan to use 4 chanels at 100MHz BW signal. If using 2 channels the rigol has 500MSa/s which should be enough for a 100MHz signal, so still useful there but only using 2 channels. While the siglent using 2 channels you can get 1GSa/s, and using only one channel both 1GSa/s.

I went for the Rigol because was waaay cheaper to get for me, I would have to pay twice to get the Signlent, as shipping rates from stores where it was available to ship to me were way higher, like 3 times what I payed for the Rigol shipping. YMMV here, so with a closer price the fight is open. Then there are a few other differences, the bode plotting looks great, probably better with a dedicated signal generator than the optional one for the scope, but still not great as it has many limitations. The ability to add the logic analyzer later is a nice one too, for having a MSO as the time comes, and money and needs agreed on this, but is an expensive option to have a logic analyzer compared to many other out there, and going to the PC as usual as I do I can mix them there (analog and digital) for the time where it's needed)

JS

For my current needs, they're both overkill. The issue is that people keep giving me ideas of how I might use them, and some of them sound reasonable. For me, the difference in price will be about $140 between the two units, and I get free shipping.

In all honesty, being the tech/computer type that I am, it bothers me to pay for an old computer. From that perspective, and for an extra $140 I get a newer computer with 1M FFT, double the multi-channel sampling, built-in web server, 400VDC input, and the POTENTIAL for other crap I probably won't use. I probably won't ever use the logic input, but it's there. I dunno if I'd ever shell out any cash for their AWG addon, but the option is there.

And even though I don't care at all about the WiFi module, I'm interested in it for one reason: the TP-Link adapter model (TL-WN725N) that Siglent charges $70 for is available for $10 or less, and I'm curious if I could get the cheap one to work. I dunno if anybody has tried or not, I haven't looked yet.

Thanks,
Josh
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