Author Topic: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?  (Read 55161 times)

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Offline bhishmar

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #350 on: September 03, 2018, 07:12:28 pm »
@bitseeker @fungus
Your reply seems to indicate that,  the front end analog circuitry of DS1054Z (50MHz) Unit &  DS 1104z (100Mhz) Unit  are essentially the same, in terms of  frequency response characteristics,
& the only difference by doing this hack is probably simply configuring the input BW  (anti-aliasing) filter from 50MHz to 100 MHz.

Is the above statement correct?

Yes.

All models are really 100MHz. The only difference is that the software switches an extra capacitor on the 50Mhz model.

Here in this forum, at other threads, I am reading that the 100 Mhz hacked DS1054Z is reading 100Mhz sinewave at very high attenuation.

Surely if the -3dB  point of a hacked DS1054Z is >= 100 MHz, it cannot be the case?

Another way of asking this question is:
Can u tell,  what is the -3dB point of a hacked DS1054Z at your disposal?
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #351 on: September 03, 2018, 07:36:23 pm »
Here in this forum, at other threads, I am reading that the 100 Mhz hacked DS1054Z is reading 100Mhz sinewave at very high attenuation.

Where do you read that? (links please...)

It's not true. Every thread in this forum confirms the bandwidth (with 3dB point at about 136MHz).

There are many threads related to this, here is one:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-bandwidth/
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 07:40:08 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline bhishmar

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #352 on: September 03, 2018, 07:44:00 pm »
Here in this forum, at other threads, I am reading that the 100 Mhz hacked DS1054Z is reading 100Mhz sinewave at very high attenuation.

Where do you read that? (links please...)

It's not true. Every thread in this forum confirms the bandwidth (with 3dB point at about 136MHz).

There are many threads related to this, here is one:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-bandwidth/

I have read so many threads, & don't remember in which thread exactly.  I will get back on it.
Also the SG1104x  -3db is much better than hacked DS1504Z in this thread itself probably.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 07:46:27 pm by bhishmar »
 

Offline bhishmar

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #353 on: September 03, 2018, 07:44:42 pm »
I dont want to Hijack  KungFuJosh's thread, anymore (if he feels so).

Can I request a moderator to shift all posts from Reply #345 to a  new thread named:
"DS1054Z BW improvement how much thru 100Mhz unlocking"
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #354 on: September 03, 2018, 07:56:15 pm »
I have read so many threads, & don't remember in which thread exactly.  I will get back on it.
Also the SG1104x  -3db is much better than hacked DS1504Z in this thread itself probably.

I don't think that's true, although it can be hacked to 200MHz.

Obviously it's much more expensive, so...you choose.

I have read so many threads

Then you should know there's no doubts about unlocked bandwidth. Many, many people have measured it, eg. in the thread I posted above.

I dont want to Hijack  KungFuJosh's thread, anymore (if he feels so).

Can I request a moderator to shift all posts from Reply #345 to a  new thread named:
"DS1054Z BW improvement how much thru 100Mhz unlocking"

There really is no point in discussing it further, 100Mhz is real.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 08:00:35 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #355 on: September 03, 2018, 08:00:27 pm »
Ah, OK. Here's how my brain computed it:

guy with mustache and beard + Kung Fu in screen name = Chuck Norris. :-DD

UPS (pronounced "oops")

I hadn't heard that one before. I like it!

That's pretty funny.

I had a friend who used to load trucks for UPS a long time ago. He told me that's how they pronounced it, especially when they tossed a box on a truck and they heard something smash. "Oops" - and on they go.
"I installed a skylight in my apartment yesterday... The people who live above me are furious." - Steven Wright
 

Offline bhishmar

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #356 on: September 03, 2018, 08:30:42 pm »
Then you should know there's no doubts about unlocked bandwidth. Many, many people have measured it, eg. in the thread I posted above.

Yes you are correct.  But two things were lacking.

a) whether the hack is valid with latest acquired models (board & firmware versions). You & bitseeker has now answered it.
b) Regarding unlocked bandwidth, how much it was practicable, I was reading confusing reports. So I was looking for a quantitative assessment.
Thanks for your link. I am trying to digest it.

Btw TheoB's post seems to suggest that a switchable 20MHz BW limit feature is present in the unit.
Can u confirm that such a "BW limit filter" feature is provided  in DS1054Z menu?
I read in comments below Daves initial 2015 video, that such a facility was not there initially & was later introduced.
Is this true?


 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #357 on: September 03, 2018, 09:02:22 pm »
Btw TheoB's post seems to suggest that a switchable 20MHz BW limit feature is present in the unit.
Can u confirm that such a "BW limit filter" feature is provided  in DS1054Z menu?

Yes.
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #358 on: September 03, 2018, 10:41:38 pm »
Well, unfortunately I don't think I can give a fair apples-to-apples comparison on these screenshots. I may have modified the amp a little after returning the Rigol and before scoping it with the Siglent. I'm still in the process of fixing this second one. I've completely removed the reverb tube and flipped it (this layout/chassis is much different and smaller), so I won't be able to do anything more until I'm done wiring that back up.
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #359 on: September 04, 2018, 12:04:42 am »
Since you've already returned the Rigol, I wouldn't sweat it too much. It sounded to me like the issue was in getting a good trigger and you confirmed that. From the screen shots, just raising the trigger level a bit probably would've done the trick (just don't go too high or you get into the modulated region) and maybe a bit of hold-off.

The good thing is that using auto on the Siglent triggered well for you, and you got that little bugger out of the amp.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 12:08:29 am by bitseeker »
I TEA.
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #360 on: September 04, 2018, 12:32:30 am »
Since you've already returned the Rigol, I wouldn't sweat it too much. It sounded to me like the issue was in getting a good trigger and you confirmed that. From the screen shots, just raising the trigger level a bit probably would've done the trick (just don't go too high or you get into the modulated region) and maybe a bit of hold-off.

The good thing is that using auto on the Siglent triggered well for you, and you got that little bugger out of the amp.

I did try adjusting the trigger on the Rigol quite a bit, but it didn't help.

The stopped Siglent screenshots I was playing with the Single trigger. That obviously worked very well too. I'm still working on the amp in the comparison screenshots. Hopefully I'll have it figured out tomorrow, but that might be wishful thinking. I do have to do real work also.
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #361 on: September 04, 2018, 02:09:12 am »
Real work. Don't you hate when that happens?
I TEA.
 

Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #362 on: September 04, 2018, 02:27:38 am »
Real work. Don't you hate when that happens?

Well, I will have to pay for all this test equipment at some point. ;)
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #363 on: September 04, 2018, 03:28:24 am »
Yup. ;D
I TEA.
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #364 on: September 04, 2018, 04:58:31 am »
...
I did try adjusting the trigger on the Rigol quite a bit, but it didn't help.

The stopped Siglent screenshots I was playing with the Single trigger. That obviously worked very well too. I'm still working on the amp in the comparison screenshots. Hopefully I'll have it figured out tomorrow, but that might be wishful thinking. I do have to do real work also.

Maybe this complex signal is a good opportunity to play around and gain experience with the advanced trigger options. If you had used some of these (I could consider pulse, runt to mention a few together with multiple levels / durations), you could have triggered right on the "bugger" where you wanted it to on both the rigol and the siglent. Just pressing Auto and turning level a bit up and down won't usually do the trick and hoping that level trigger will make you happy all the time is just ignoring a good percentage of the power a modern digital 'scope has to offer.

Open the advanced trigger menu and play with the options. You will be surprised where it gets you.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #365 on: September 04, 2018, 07:34:45 am »
Since you've already returned the Rigol, I wouldn't sweat it too much. It sounded to me like the issue was in getting a good trigger and you confirmed that. From the screen shots, just raising the trigger level a bit probably would've done the trick (just don't go too high or you get into the modulated region) and maybe a bit of hold-off.

Nope, it's nothing to do with triggering. The Siglent is triggering on the main waveform, not the glitches.

It's some other basic setting, eg. display persistance. We can never know what the Rigol settings were when that wave was being viewed but the Siglent managed to show it mostly through dumb luck, nothing more.



(Sorry to burst bubbles but it's true)

« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 09:04:38 am by Fungus »
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #366 on: September 04, 2018, 09:51:54 am »
Since you've already returned the Rigol, I wouldn't sweat it too much. It sounded to me like the issue was in getting a good trigger and you confirmed that. From the screen shots, just raising the trigger level a bit probably would've done the trick (just don't go too high or you get into the modulated region) and maybe a bit of hold-off.

Nope, it's nothing to do with triggering. The Siglent is triggering on the main waveform, not the glitches.

It's some other basic setting, eg. display persistance. We can never know what the Rigol settings were when that wave was being viewed but the Siglent managed to show it mostly through dumb luck, nothing more.



(Sorry to burst bubbles but it's true)

Exept that it is not due to persistence. So why you again generate bullshit.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #367 on: September 04, 2018, 10:31:46 am »
Exept that it is not due to persistence. So why you again generate bullshit.

It certainly isn't due to triggering.

The normal way to find stuff like that is to turn up persistence. The only bullshit here is from people who think the Siglent found it by magic.

« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 10:33:30 am by Fungus »
 

Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #368 on: September 04, 2018, 11:47:31 am »
the Siglent found it by magic.

Siglent gets the point for Magic. +1 :horse: <- he's waving a magic wand.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #369 on: September 04, 2018, 11:49:20 am »
Maybe this complex signal is a good opportunity to play around and gain experience with the advanced trigger options. If you had used some of these (I could consider pulse, runt to mention a few together with multiple levels / durations), you could have triggered right on the "bugger" where you wanted it to on both the rigol and the siglent. Just pressing Auto and turning level a bit up and down won't usually do the trick and hoping that level trigger will make you happy all the time is just ignoring a good percentage of the power a modern digital 'scope has to offer.

Open the advanced trigger menu and play with the options. You will be surprised where it gets you.

I'm in the process of reading the Siglent manual, and I'm at the advanced triggering section. I do plan on trying some of this fancy-shmancy stuff out. Or maybe I'll press buttons and read later.
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Offline wpwrak

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #370 on: September 04, 2018, 12:10:41 pm »
Siglent gets the point for Magic.

The higher waveform update rate (about 100 k vs. 30 k, details would depend on settings) may have helped a little, too. High waveform rate = less time until the glitch appears on the screen. Persistence = once it has appeared on the screen, it stays there.

Edit: s/unless/until/
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 01:26:03 pm by wpwrak »
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #371 on: September 04, 2018, 01:05:40 pm »
I'm in the process of reading the Siglent manual

Here's an extract from the Rigol manual:


 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #372 on: September 04, 2018, 03:31:22 pm »
Exept that it is not due to persistence. So why you again generate bullshit.

It certainly isn't due to triggering.

The normal way to find stuff like that is to turn up persistence. The only bullshit here is from people who think the Siglent found it by magic.

Your comment was about shown image. For this image comment was bullshit. There is not persistence timer delayed display, it is more like (I'm quite sure) there is one frametime acquisitions overlaid.

About persistence. Of course. You think tjhis is some kind of kindergarten.. All know what it is and as you say it is one way,  and many times good way in practice before do more complex things, also mask test is good,  for hunting glitches and other anomalies. Naturally. 
But in this image what you comment it is quite sure it is not persistence.  I wonder if you understand how DPO...SPO, or what ever name we give it, works.
 Do we need now start lessons about principles how these things work.

----------------------------------
But then. Bit more about this persistence. I assume you know even some basics how it works. It works in display memory. It is only in display image map or least it can think it is like this.

But, take again this image what you comment.
In same TFT display frame there is more than one acquisition overlaid, as can see... all trigged but can not know how many there is really overlaid and also can not know which order these overlaid wfms have captured (if look only this image), but Siglent can separate these. TFT frame display as many overlaid as it have captured inside around 40ms. After then this is updated to TFT. And again next 40ms and next TFT image contain what have captured after last time display memory is updated to TFT (0 if display memory have some pixels what need keep until "persistence time" elapsed) With some t/div mem etc settings one TFT frame may contain well over 4500, even near 5000 max,  captures overlaid.
Of course with this speed in commented image it can not have more than only some capture overlaid until next TFT refresh.

Ok, it produce image what can see on the fly in TFT screen. But in Siglent there is more. It also keep full acguisitions in buffer and it have full raw ADC data.

If this commented image is stopped what user can do for analyze situation more deeply. He can push "History" button. After then he can analyze separate single captured wfms overlaid in this image. Including even time stamp for every trigged and captured single wfm. In this image case there is max 18 separate wfm in wfm history buffer memory, each 2.8Mpoints. (50Mpts)

So, it is much much more than just screen persistence. (what is itself also good tool)

After stop scope when this image is visible user can analyze fully these 18 (if this image have max) last captured wfm overlaid in TFT displayed frame. If it is only persistence image on TFT what can you do. Only look this image and perhaps use cursors or eyes for analyze it from image with image resolution.  With Siglent you can separate these overlaid waveforms what can see in image overlaid.  Not image mapped but overlaid single waveforms full raw ADC data what are in wfm history buffer (fifo).  If need, even Sinc, linear or real data dots (no fake dots) can select for display because Sinc or lin is fully post processed in Siglent  like in every serious scope need be.
Every sinlke wfm in buffer can analyze with full measurement, FFT for every separate wfm in buffer, also example if buffer have more acquistions, example max 80000 it is bit hard to search all. THis is why there is other tools for analyze it. Of course it can replay for get persistence display if like or it can run through mask test or of course full mesurements

So, of course persistence is good to use for keep these anomalies more time displayed. With every scope what have persistence. But then, if persistence time more or less or off... there is history buffer in Siglent where is lot of more than just TFT screen image. And this is powerful tool if user know how to take all out from this powerful feature.


« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 03:32:58 pm by rf-loop »
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #373 on: September 06, 2018, 12:01:39 am »
Do NOT, ever, I mean EVER, buy anything from Tequipment. They are the worst. :--

They've had the Rigol back since August 30th. I still don't have my refund. They told me I would have my refund within 48 to 72 hours of them receiving it, and a confirmation email. I never got any emails, except replies to me, which were all excuses.

Finally, today, they processed the refund, but I only found out because I messaged their online chat. But, even though I returned that crap to them exactly as I received it, they charged me a $66 restocking fee, even after promising me they wouldn't charge me anything! They told me the DS1054Z was a 60 return policy with no restocking fees. I returned it in less than 30 days, as new, exactly as received. Ordered on the 1st, received on the 8th, and return received by them on the 30th. |O

On top of that, one of the owners had the nerve to message me on here, letting me know that they actually gave me excellent customer service. Apparently I was wrong?! WTF. AND the guy has such an ego he thinks him having talked to me in one of the chats was some kind of blessing. He's so full of himself, at one point during that chat, he told me to google his name. :palm:

PayPal dispute filed. Avoid these liars.

EDIT: Geez, I wish I googled them before ordering, I usually do. They have people complaining about them going back to at least 2006.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 11:54:49 am by KungFuJosh »
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?
« Reply #374 on: September 06, 2018, 12:17:58 am »
About persistence. Of course. You think tjhis is some kind of kindergarten..

There's people posting in this thread who didn't know about "zoom" mode until a few days ago, so...  :-//

 


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