Author Topic: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)  (Read 132178 times)

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Offline illusive

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #225 on: December 23, 2017, 07:38:02 am »
just received one from (honest) seller BATR**** Germany: SDS1EBAQ1R3473
so happy, thanks a lot   :--
It's up to you choosing your buying source ;) We are one of the first EU sellers receiving the fixed version directly from the factory. Our current serial number range is SDS1EBBD1Rxxx.

What is the chance if i order from you now one unit that it will be with the new serial number?
 

Offline rickv14623

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #226 on: December 27, 2017, 04:14:58 pm »
This is the Email I sent to:" esales@saelig.com " and "support@saelig.com", and I have not received any reply or response whatsoever:
 
"As I have been aware of this oscilloscope has two missing capacitors in the input section my serial number is: SDS1EBAQ1R3XXX.

I find that this has been a known problem for a long time, I find it rather of a lower standard to ship these oscilloscopes out to customers without having them being corrected in the first place.

For me  the cost and problems related to customs, I find myself now stranded with a problem I cannot easily get out of.

How can you help me out of this problem?

With regards

My Name"

I will wait to set any "judgement" on www.saelig.com, but so far I can say I have a rather low respect for any firm, may it be a producer or reseller, that does not correct or respond to a common known fault.

Well that comes to show that morals can be low when it comes to sales.

Please put a notice on the "Saelig discount code thread"

Since Saelig was closed for Christmas until today we are looking into your issue. 12/22 was the first we became aware that this existed for any of the SDS customers. We will be in contact with you via email as we have information.

 
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Offline dave356

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #227 on: December 28, 2017, 12:55:14 am »
I purchased thru Saelig also.  Hope they resolve this.
 

Offline Welectron

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #228 on: December 28, 2017, 11:17:38 am »
What is the chance if i order from you now one unit that it will be with the new serial number?
100% ;) Make sure to leave a note during checkout.
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Offline shiftdelete

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #229 on: January 01, 2018, 03:35:56 am »
Just bought and received the SDS1202X-E  from Amazon as the seller here in the US. SN is SDS1EBBD1RXXXX.... If I'm reading this right, there should be no probe calibration issue with the aforementioned SN format? Correct? I've been trying to calibrate mine without success, so I'm hoping it's just user error since I'm a little new to this. Thanks.
 

Offline TK

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #230 on: January 01, 2018, 04:45:32 am »
Just bought and received the SDS1202X-E  from Amazon as the seller here in the US. SN is SDS1EBBD1RXXXX.... If I'm reading this right, there should be no probe calibration issue with the aforementioned SN format? Correct? I've been trying to calibrate mine without success, so I'm hoping it's just user error since I'm a little new to this. Thanks.
Make sure to have the probes set to 10X
 
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Offline shiftdelete

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #231 on: January 01, 2018, 04:56:38 am »
Thanks, I was able to calibrate. A combination of the 10X + adjusting the trimpot on the probe did the trick.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #232 on: January 01, 2018, 06:10:11 am »
Thanks, I was able to calibrate. A combination of the 10X + adjusting the trimpot on the probe did the trick.
Just a heads up.
You're using the wrong terminology; you compensate a probe in 10x mode and you calibrate equipment.
The SDS1202X-E has an internal 'Self Cal' that should be run from time to time after the prescribed warm up time and after firmware updates.

Yes, your SN# indicates it's been made since the end of October 17 when this issue was corrected in production.
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Offline evgen.05

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #233 on: January 03, 2018, 09:59:47 am »
Hello, guys. Yesterday i've soldered a couple capacitors to oscilloscope. 2nd channel works perfect, but first channel is not very good. On 20v/div - i see overcompensation and this is not correcting with trimmer capacitors. Manuals https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=364110 is not true. First capacitor trim just 2v/div and above. Second capacitor trim only on 20v/div.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #234 on: January 03, 2018, 10:16:52 am »
Hello, guys. Yesterday i've soldered a couple capacitors to oscilloscope. 2nd channel works perfect, but first channel is not very good. On 20v/div - i see overcompensation and this is not correcting with trimmer capacitors. Manuals https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/?action=dlattach;attach=364110 is not true. First capacitor trim just 2v/div and above. Second capacitor trim only on 20v/div.
The rework instructions call for square wave signals, only @ 1.2V and 12V both @ 10 KHz.
Did you provide them ?
The connection from your signal source should only be with BNC cable connection and the trimmers adjusted in the correct sequence and then double checked with each level of input.
Be sure you have the channel inputs set to 1x.

One pad for the caps is on a ground plane and as such requires more heat to get solder to reflow. A quick check with magnification for a good joint is a good idea and you can also check for a good joint with a continuity meter.
This pad to ground is a little harder to get soldered, I solder to other first then rotate the PCB to get a good angle for the iron to get the best possible joint to the ground plane.

Edit
Any flux residue will affect the end result. Be very sure to clean very carefully.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 10:38:54 am by tautech »
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Offline evgen.05

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #235 on: January 03, 2018, 12:48:12 pm »
I tried to do how in manual wrote. First trimmer cap is work on 2v/div and higher. Under that both trim caps is useles. On 200mv/div as wrote in manual - trimmers are useless. Second trimmer(number from manual) works only on 20v/div
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #236 on: January 03, 2018, 02:37:55 pm »
I tried to do how in manual wrote. First trimmer cap is work on 2v/div and higher. Under that both trim caps is useles. On 200mv/div as wrote in manual - trimmers are useless. Second trimmer(number from manual) works only on 20v/div

Of course you use oscilloscope probe multiplier 1x. With 1x  setting voltages are what they are in oscilloscope BNC input connector.
Of course in instructions they use these "true" input levels. And also for this purpose you need 10kHz square (1.2Vpp with 200mV/div  input (on the display 6 division) and then for adjust other trimmer using 2V/div and 12Vpp 10kHz square, (also 6 div p-p). These compensations need do perfectly and exactly and of course only with these two vertical voltage settings. Do not adjust with other settings. These adjustments affect also self calibration and if these settings are wrong then after selfcal all is wrong. Because selfcal signal is injected internally to point what is before these attenuators what (LF)frequency response is adjusted with these trimmers.
Simple rule. Do not adjust until you really know they need adjust.
How you connect this 10kHz square to oscilloscope input? (it is not explained in instructions)
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Offline evgen.05

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #237 on: January 03, 2018, 07:52:04 pm »
allright, guys. Made a recalibration with 1x. 1st channel still overcompensated on 2v/div(20v/div old calibration), 2nd channel still perfect.

in attachment result with 1x probe and 1kHz signal. I think that cap wich is parallel to trimmer cap 2(as in manual) is too small. Who knows wich type of caps using there?
 

Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #238 on: January 03, 2018, 10:02:14 pm »
allright, guys. Made a recalibration with 1x. 1st channel still overcompensated on 2v/div(20v/div old calibration), 2nd channel still perfect.

in attachment result with 1x probe and 1kHz signal. I think that cap wich is parallel to trimmer cap 2(as in manual) is too small. Who knows wich type of caps using there?
I very strongly suspect you have made an error with the adjustment procedure.

Please study the instructions again and follow them exactly along with additional tips I have provided.
Your 10 KHz signal source for the adjustments is fed with BNC cable only and the 1 KHz probe cal signal and probes are NOT used for the adjustment procedure.
This is very important, use an external 10 KHz source and BNC cable.

Previous to addition of the correction caps the uncompensation will only show using a 10x probe while stepping over/under the 1.2V threshold were an input relay switches between input ranges.
1.2V is selected as the max attenuation in that range and likewise with 12V to give a full display signal on order to make the adjustment easier to complete. Using a faster timebase helps too with several divisions visible for the peak of the square wave to be adjusted to a perfectly flat top.

Of the few I have reworked maybe only two have needed further cleaning to remove ALL flux residue before the adjustments could provide perfect results.
With care and following the instructions perfect results are to be expected.
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #239 on: January 03, 2018, 11:17:01 pm »
allright, guys. Made a recalibration with 1x. 1st channel still overcompensated on 2v/div(20v/div old calibration), 2nd channel still perfect.

in attachment result with 1x probe and 1kHz signal. I think that cap wich is parallel to trimmer cap 2(as in manual) is too small. Who knows wich type of caps using there?

May I ask why you mess with this oscilloscope probe factor. This have nothing to do here. When you are doing this front end internal adjustments do not mess with probe factor at all. (do not also mix it with probe head 1x/10x switch - this is other thing.
If you set oscilloscope 10x and set vertical adjustemnt to 20V/div it is exactly same as you set oscilloscope for 1x and and vertical setting 2V/div. Only what change is oscilloscope voltage level number.

For adjust oscilloscope attenuators LF compensation trimmers just follow instructions. Set oscilloscope probe factor for 1x and keep it.
Connect coaxial cable from signal generator output BNC directly to oscilloscope input BNC (in this case we do not need input normalizer). Also if your signal generator produce very fast square wave edges then need take care about ringing, but if it is typical slow edge "10-20MHz grade" function generator no need extra care - this is not rocket science).
Select 200mV/div. Set signal generator for 1.2V p-p square wave and frequency 10kHz. After then adjust trimmer (look instructions what trimmer)  for perfect flat top and bottom, exactly.  After then adjust signal generator level for 12Vp-p square and same frequency. Set Vertical level for 2V/div. Now adjust this other trimmer for perfect flat bottom and top square. Exactly. Then check these both again and do some fine adjust if need. Iterate so many times result is perfect.  After then same for other channel.

After then do self calibration and nothing connected to input BNC's.

After then if you  use probes and example use oscilloscope 1kHz probe calibration signal. Set probe to 10x and oscilloscope probe setting also to 10x.  In this point you adjust only probe head  compensation trimmer for as perfect flat square as you can (it drift very easy!). And in this point if you are not satisfied this square wave do not touch oscilloscope internal adjustments for correction. Probe is probe and these are cheap not high class probes)  If you now touch these you do whole procedure again starting from scratch. 
Oscilloscope internal front end attenuators adjustment trimmers must not adjust using probes!  As tautech told, here need use coaxial cable from signal generator output BNC to oscilloscope input BNC.

(this model) Oscilloscope analog front end have three voltage ranges and two of these have own attenuator circuit (I use here only thes big 1-2-5 steps for simplify)  And of course these numbers are when oscilloscope input  is set for 1X 
1. 500uV - 100mV/div (there is no attenuator what need adjust)
2. 200mV - 1V/div (this range have attenuator what have also LF compensation trimmer)
3. 2V - 10V/div (this range have attenuator what have also LF compensation trimmer)

If you use other input multiplier of course these numbers are different (this multiplier affect only to displayed numbers and nothing else.

Input multiplier is just for show right numbers. 1x multiplier and 2V/div  and 10x multiplier and 20V/div is exactly same circuit inside oscilloscope without any kind of change. Only display number change.

If you set probe attenuation for 10x it meand that probe divide your voltage from probe tip to oscilloscope input 10:1
This is why you need set oscilloscope so that it multiply numbers 10x for show right voltage.

Voltage levels in instruction is levels in oscilloscope input BNC. 

In case you use right adjustment methods ( signal generator with good flat top and bottom square wave and right adjustment procedure and can not still adjust square wave enough perfect then perhaps your capacitors (what you have soldered) are not ok or you have damaged some other things there. But first, try adjustment with right procedure
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Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #240 on: January 04, 2018, 03:18:16 am »
Some little guidance pictures for those making adjustments after rework.

From my demo unit, a very early SN#.
My first rework and not near perfect.
Cold unit , powered just for these screenshots.
Signal source SDG1032X, BNC connection (1x).


1.2V p-p, 10 KHz and scope settings to adjust trimmer #1




12V p-p, 10 KHz and scope settings to adjust trimmer #2




12V p-p 10 KHz 10:1 probe result



NOTE
These are to show expected images with the correct inputs and how it might look using a 10x probe if the adjustments are not correct..... and nothing more.
This unit needs further adjustments.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 03:20:23 am by tautech »
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Offline evgen.05

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #241 on: January 04, 2018, 05:42:42 am »
Gyus, english is not my native language. Translate google.com - is not a good idea. I did everything right. On picture, that i've posted - just a sample to explain difference between first channel and second. Second channel has perfect compensation, but first channel has overcompensation on 2v/div with 1x probe(or 20v/div with 10x probe). I think that parallel cap to cap2(as in manual) has too small capacitance. Capacitance of trimmer cap2(as in manual) not enough to ajustment overcompensation.
 

Online Performa01

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #242 on: January 04, 2018, 06:39:28 am »
I don’t know exactly how the input attenuators and its compensation networks look like, but in case of an overcompensation I would expect that the capacitance value of compensation trimmer is too high, not too low.

So my guess would be that if you are actually unable to compensate the attenuator for the 2V (x1) range, the trimmer might be damaged or some other capacitor in the compensation network for this attenuator is broken or missing.

Maybe you could post a high resolution photograph of the input section (where the trimmer capacitors are) so we can make further guesses…
 

Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #243 on: January 04, 2018, 07:04:00 am »
Gyus, english is not my native language. Translate google.com - is not a good idea. I did everything right. On picture, that i've posted - just a sample to explain difference between first channel and second. Second channel has perfect compensation, but first channel has overcompensation on 2v/div with 1x probe(or 20v/div with 10x probe). I think that parallel cap to cap2(as in manual) has too small capacitance. Capacitance of trimmer cap2(as in manual) not enough to ajustment overcompensation.
Yes we understand there are some small language problems.

I keep asking about your connection type to signal source as it must be a BNC cable not probe.
I look back through your posts and you do not make it clear that a BNC cable was used.
Please confirm you used BNC cable.

On one scope I corrected no adjustment was necessary for one channel as just the addition of the cap corrected the non-compensation. Usually any adjustment if needed is quite small.
If you are having trouble with one channel please check your work is very clean and the solder joint is good and there is no rework contamination of the surrounding area (flux residue or solder balls).
Good magnification and good light is necessary for careful inspection.

Did Welectron send you the caps ?
Did he get them from Siglent ?

I don’t know exactly how the input attenuators and its compensation networks look like, but in case of an overcompensation I would expect that the capacitance value of compensation trimmer is too high, not too low.

So my guess would be that if you are actually unable to compensate the attenuator for the 2V (x1) range, the trimmer might be damaged or some other capacitor in the compensation network for this attenuator is broken or missing.

Maybe you could post a high resolution photograph of the input section (where the trimmer capacitors are) so we can make further guesses…

Here's the URL to Daves teardown stopped at 17.21 for a closeup of one of the inputs:
https://youtu.be/slBXLf4YKtA?t=1041

Just to the right of the trimmers is CB105, the position missing the cap for ch1.
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Online Performa01

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #244 on: January 04, 2018, 07:12:16 am »
Okay, looks like I am wrong. The compensation trimmer is connected to ground obviously, so its capacitance would be actually too low in case of an overcompensation …
 

Offline evgen.05

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #245 on: January 04, 2018, 08:56:36 am »

I keep asking about your connection type to signal source as it must be a BNC cable not probe.
I look back through your posts and you do not make it clear that a BNC cable was used.
Please confirm you used BNC cable.

On one scope I corrected no adjustment was necessary for one channel as just the addition of the cap corrected the non-compensation. Usually any adjustment if needed is quite small.
If you are having trouble with one channel please check your work is very clean and the solder joint is good and there is no rework contamination of the surrounding area (flux residue or solder balls).
Good magnification and good light is necessary for careful inspection.

Did Welectron send you the caps ?
Did he get them from Siglent ?

Just to the right of the trimmers is CB105, the position missing the cap for ch1.
Yes, connected through the BNC cable when i've trimmed second time. Nothing is changed.
CB105 is missing(in 1st channel), You're right. In second channel this cap is present. That's the problem. Do You know what type of cap must be there?
Got this caps from China. Maybe from Siglent. There is no signature on mail and Siglent nothing told me about that
 

Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #246 on: January 04, 2018, 09:28:28 am »
Yes, connected through the BNC cable when i've trimmed second time. Nothing is changed.
CB105 is missing(in 1st channel), You're right. In second channel this cap is present. That's the problem. Do You know what type of cap must be there?
Got this caps from China. Maybe from Siglent. There is no signature on mail and Siglent nothing told me about that
Did you receive two caps ?

One for each channel to be installed at position C*105 ? (CA105 and CB105)



The cap spec from earlier in this thread:
From reply #57:
4 pF 1206 (3216 in metric) 500V rated C0G (NP0)

There are five types listed that Siglent recommends in the rework instructions in reply #57.

From reply #84:
First, PCB is made for 1206 size. There do not need thinking if this or that is ok. Ok is 1206. Period.
Tolerance is specified. Named Vishay capacxitors have +/-  0.25pF tolerance.
Voltage. Specified. As can read named Vishay capacitors have 500V (CXLT) or 630V (CXET)
Recommended Vishay parts
VJ 1206 A 3R9 CXL...   size 1206, C0G (NP0), 3.9pF, +0.25pF, Ni barrier Tin coat, 500V (this is mandatory minimum without exeptions)
VJ 1206 A 3R9 CXE...   size 1206, C0G (NP0), 3.9pF, +0.25pF, Ni barrier Tin coat, 630V

« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 10:01:57 am by tautech »
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Offline evgen.05

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #247 on: January 04, 2018, 09:34:45 am »
Yes, recieve 4 caps. I asked about caps near (and parallel) trim caps 0603. Not 1206. In first channel one of the cap is missing. Not soldered. In second channel this cap is present. CB115 if i remember right (rounded black in attachment)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 09:42:44 am by evgen.05 »
 

Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #248 on: January 04, 2018, 09:52:52 am »
Yes, recieve 4 caps. I asked about caps near (and parallel) trim caps 0603. Not 1206. In first channel one of the cap is missing. Not soldered. In second channel this cap is present. CB115 if i remember right (rounded black in attachment)


That is bad, I do not know why it is missing.

Here's a better pic:


We need someone to measure it so you can refit it. 0603 next to VC4 trimmer, right ?

I will readjust my demo unit to get it right and measure it for you, but not tonight as it's already nearly 11pm.
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Offline evgen.05

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Re: Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)
« Reply #249 on: January 04, 2018, 09:57:47 am »

That is bad, I do not know why it is missing.

Here's a better pic:

We need someone to measure it so you can refit it. 0603 next to VC4 trimmer, right ?

I will readjust my demo unit to get it right and measure it for you, but not tonight as it's already nearly 11pm.
I can pick up the value, but I need to know the type of capacitor. NGO or COG
 


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