Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)

[tautech]

Well I tried to appeal to Steve of Siglent America but he's holding firm on his position that all I get is capacitors.  He also accused me of leaving a 1-star review for my SPD3303X-E on Amazon but I never left a review (see picture) and if I had it would probably have been 4 or 5 stars.

Wow.  Just, wow.

I guess that now I know what sort of outfit we're dealing with.  Evidently, the principles involved don't realize (or care?) that customers do have ways of communicating with each other and that word gets around.

Other than this defect I really like the 'scope.  I just want one that is correct from the get-go.

As advised, send it back and then INSIST you get a replacement with SN# BB or later.
BB's came out from the factory in October 17.

[sdouble]

Dear friends,
I bought my unit from Amazon.com a couple of weeks again.
A "BA" units was delivered to me. Usual compensation problem identified.
I poste a negative comment as a review on Amazon.
I got a "comment" from the manufacturer :
"Actually, the design was modified in September to add two capacitors to improve the probe compensation. They were never "not soldered in" but were added in a product improvement. All units shipped from our factory now have this new design - the two capacitors."

I'm really pissed off by their dishonest behaviour.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RKE5F14UJHQFA/ref=cm_cr_srp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B06XZML6RD

[kelchm]

This crap makes me want to send my SDS1104X-E back. Hard to believe Siglent isn’t stepping up and making this right for the early adopters.

[mr.fabe]

This simple issue regarding the compensation problem really bothers me.  It just does not feel ethically correct for Siglent's GM to promote the adding of the "missing caps" is really a feature enhancement and not to fix a defect.  It's the damn principal that manufacturers shouldn't be allowed to ignore.  Siglent users only want to make their equipment a better  dependable tool to use.   Real users are one of their strongest advocates in promoting their product line. They have fixed the problems once they were notified in their production line yet it's not  defect?   If we had a poll for affected users who feel that a remedy is warranted, then it may be worth a shot.

I believe in giving any company the opportunity to do the right thing for this defect.  We know that Siglent USA's GM has drawn the line in the sand.  What is the position in other countries outside the USA?
I know the distributors invest a lot of time to fix the issue for their customers.  I hope they are compensated for their efforts.

We have several remedies to take advantage of such a class action claims (need 1 to file, 40 to back the action). The firm that recently won a class action (Motorola) would be one of the potential law representatives to consider.  There's a UCC complaint option for consumers in many US states, and in California, we have the lemon law.  The BBB option really has no teeth to hold the company accountable so I may skip that one.

The question is whether this is worth the time to try and hold a company accountable to honest business practices. I think that the cost accountant for Siglent may have overstated the number of end users actually seeking a remedy to repair this missing caps problem.

Sorry about the delirious ranting...

 

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

[N0NB]

Dear friends,
I bought my unit from Amazon.com a couple of weeks again.
A "BA" units was delivered to me. Usual compensation problem identified.
I poste a negative comment as a review on Amazon.
I got a "comment" from the manufacturer :
"Actually, the design was modified in September to add two capacitors to improve the probe compensation. They were never "not soldered in" but were added in a product improvement. All units shipped from our factory now have this new design - the two capacitors."

I'm really pissed off by their dishonest behaviour.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RKE5F14UJHQFA/ref=cm_cr_srp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B06XZML6RD

Gotta love the "customer is always wrong" attitude on display.

[Diabolo]

Hello,

Question: Why does the PCB have an unused free slot CB105 and CA105?
Why this PCB was not manufactured with a single capacitor slot when it was designed, ie just with CB106 and CA106?
In the mind of the manufacturer, why create a free space that is useless at the beginning of the 1202X-E series?
With a single location it was enough to replace the original capacity by a value greater than 4pf.


Diabolo

[Gregg]

I received some extra money for a consulting gig and was ready to purchase a Siglent SDS 1204X-E until I saw this thread.  With Siglent’s distain for customers I will spend my money elsewhere. 
Maybe I’ll wait for Rigol to come up with a new model; at least Rigol had the foresight to take care of early customers, even if it took them a while to work out the bugs.

[dave356]

Yea, Siglent  "Early Adapters" = "Early Suckers.

Product improvement my a**.  More like design team screw up.
This should have been caught and taken care of during factory testing
and calibration.

[Diabolo]

For people who do not have an oscilloscope, or want to replace an old device, just buy the "BB" series and everything will be perfect.
That the owners of the series "BAQ" moan, ok, but that those who do not have Siglent are silent.
The new 1202X-E and 1104X-E and 1204X-E are ok, so there's no reason not to buy them.
I asked for the capacitors, Siglent Europe provided them with a warranty label, and we moved on to something else!
I admit that Siglent could have installed these capacitors directly during the manufacturing BAQ, we agree.

Diabolo

[VaZso]

Question: Why does the PCB have an unused free slot CB105 and CA105?
Why this PCB was not manufactured with a single capacitor slot when it was designed, ie just with CB106 and CA106?
In the mind of the manufacturer, why create a free space that is useless at the beginning of the 1202X-E series?
With a single location it was enough to replace the original capacity by a value greater than 4pf.

I think it is because its developers designed those slots for fine-tuning the circuit before mass production.
Then, at mass production stage, another decision was made that these capacitors can be left out (maybe there are other components which really don't need to be soldered anyway), but they may not test it deeply.

Also, it is not easy (not cheap at all) to get a capacitor in a slightly different value, as they have common values available.
Another place for fine-tuning (adding a capacitor of small value as compensation) is a correct way of design.

I am writing in general, not about Siglent itself.
So, they really made a mistake and their later communication is not really good...

[ian.ameline]

Amazon.ca just shipped me a "BA" serial number unit - I confirmed the compensation issue. I'm sending it back for a replacement. I mentioned in the text field for the return about the serial number. Lets see if the replacement has a "BB" number. I'm holding off on a one star review until the replacement arrives. If it is also a "BA" unit, I will be tempted to post it. It will be a "just the facts" review - no opinions.

[TK]

The one star review should be posted now for shipping the bad unit and help other buyers.  Later if you receive the BB unit you can edit the review. 

[StillTrying]

Siglent probably only get about 2 or 3% of buyers 'concerned' about the 'compensation issue', so I'd be surprised if the "BA"'s don't still keep turning up!

[rf-loop]

It is difficult to understand how Siglent CEO isa thinking - or is he thinking at all.

Why it is so difficult to think how important is building good reputation.

If vision is not in future but only just current money flow without any worry about tomorrow...sorry but it feels like this.

It do not help any thing if launch new products competiting with price and features if other hand repeatedly destroy all potential good reputation. But no. Again and again just some small thing what then rise up and destroy part of reputation...

It is not cheap at all recall equipments back to service but it is only strong solution.

They know exactly what units have this problem. (I do not now try explain why this happend.. but reason or other it is and this is fact. )

They need set open letter to custoemers and distributors where they tell serial numbers what are affected.
They need ask distributors stop selling these units. If distributor have servicve they need make deal how to compensate dealers service department this work. If can not, then arrange these units back to Siglent or some other service who can so this job.
Units what are in end users hand they need do offer for full free RMA.

Other roads is that (perhaps more cheap way but not good because...no need explain) these distributors who have stock these issue units. They need publish full document so that buyer exactly understand and honestly can see this problem and with this notification sell these units with good offer price and notification about this lack of performance. So, buyers can make his own decision with offer price and problem.
This note about product quality problem need also read in invoice and receipt with serial number.

Also there is other solutions.

But in all cases Siglent need be active part. Not end user. Because this is not random failure or random rare error in product. This is absolutely systematic and known error in manufacture process. Without any doupt.

Trying explain that this is not serious or this is not error in manufaturing and so on so on...  it only make things more and more bad fore reputation.

Here need be open and honest. THis is only way to build better and better reputation. With good and better reputation they can win many orders of magnitude more money than what needs to be use now.




Old times Tek and HP publish service notes about hardware problems found after production. I have several service manuals with huge amount of these notes  they send afterwards. Also soem recommended modifications what can do in repair service. Some times add some components, change components, cut traces and solder jumpers etc.



THis is bit joke but I'm not sure if some company have made this somewhere.

Make designed known error and design also solution and procedure for it. So that it is not very bad and most users do not even find it or this error pops up in designed time later.

Then factory make big number and publication about it (after it pos up) and well designed arranghements how they handle this error ans they get high reputation because they are so good they did this after sales care. Designed error with designed solution  so tghat customers feels very very happe they buy this equipment from this kind of exellent company...  designed trick. Perhaps some engineer have also some psygology degree there...  (primitive: do designed bad and then pre designed highly caring help for victims... and they fall in love"





But here need not this, there is now allready accidentally made error in manufacturing and now they need show who they are. They have now opportunity to rise reputation. Are they crap sellers or company who care customers and want build more and more good and trusted reputation.  Reputation need earn from customers. There need be clever, there need be open and honest.

I know some chinese companies who did not understood this. Now these companies reputation is in "junk class" but they did not believe this before too late, just like Titanic captain...

[N0NB]

I just initiated a return for a replacement, so we'll see what I get next.

[tautech]

Siglent probably only get about 2 or 3% of buyers 'concerned' about the 'compensation issue', so I'd be surprised if the "BA"'s don't still keep turning up!

They will for sure and this thread will be long-lived because of it !

Meanwhile, as rf-loop clearly points out, much damage to the brand and customer's allegiance is being done. 
We have to try and pick up the pieces. 

PS
Yes they are working on CML FW.

[TurboSam]

For people who do not have an oscilloscope, or want to replace an old device, just buy the "BB" series and everything will be perfect.
That the owners of the series "BAQ" moan, ok, but that those who do not have Siglent are silent.
The new 1202X-E and 1104X-E and 1204X-E are ok, so there's no reason not to buy them.
I asked for the capacitors, Siglent Europe provided them with a warranty label, and we moved on to something else!
I admit that Siglent could have installed these capacitors directly during the manufacturing BAQ, we agree.

Diabolo

I think you are missing the point.

For someone like me looking to buy a new (and his first) DSO, this screams "Buyer Beware" of Siglent.   So what if the current problem affects only one model.... 

Once I plunk down $X for the SDS-1104X-E, I have no assurance at all the the manufacturer is going to stand behind its product, and with a similar issue I could well be out of luck. 

Not a great way at all to build a brand or introduce a new product.

Of course, if you are speaking for Siglent, I guess now we all have an express warranty that "everything will be perfect."

[borjam]

I think you are missing the point.

For someone like me looking to buy a new (and his first) DSO, this screams "Buyer Beware" of Siglent.   So what if the current problem affects only one model.... 

(...)

Of course, if you are speaking for Siglent, I guess now we all have an express warranty that "everything will be perfect."

The problem is much deeper because it affects the credibility of the vendor. No matter how good a product is (the X-E is better than the Rigol DS1000Z) when the manufacturer can't be trusted at all, claiming that they have a three year warranty which they won't honor.

[tautech]

I think you are missing the point.

For someone like me looking to buy a new (and his first) DSO, this screams "Buyer Beware" of Siglent.   So what if the current problem affects only one model.... 

(...)

Of course, if you are speaking for Siglent, I guess now we all have an express warranty that "everything will be perfect."

The problem is much deeper because it affects the credibility of the vendor. No matter how good a product is (the X-E is better than the Rigol DS1000Z) when the manufacturer can't be trusted at all, claiming that they have a three year warranty which they won't honor.

Did you mean manufacturer ?


It's even bigger than that !

I manage NZ warranty for Siglent and any unit I have sold previous to this issue coming to light falls firmly into my lap, not Siglent's ! The instant I had caps I reworked all units in stock but I have enough other non-reworked units 'out there' to be cause for concern in my small marketplace....but not unmanageable.



Which reminds me.....must ask Siglent for more caps.


Offer to all my NZ customers with pre-Nov 17 SDS1202X-E, contact me for free rework or to check if it's already been done.

[Muttley Snickers]

If the producer of the video linked below is to be believed then this video is confirmation that Siglent or one of its distributors are knowingly and actively distributing problematic oscilloscopes. The fellow in the video states that he purchased this particular scope at a reduced price from Siglent after they declared that it had a known repairable problem.

For fellow member StillTrying's sake and sanity it is about time and good to hear that Siglent are finally going to address the outstanding firmware issues with the still current CML+ series. I seriously ask, does Siglent have a disgruntled employee or saboteur in its midst ?, no company I ever knew fucked things up so badly or on such a regular basis, I feel sorry for their good agents and distributors who once again have to tolerate this crap.

[mr.fabe]

I think you are missing the point.

For someone like me looking to buy a new (and his first) DSO, this screams "Buyer Beware" of Siglent.   So what if the current problem affects only one model.... 

(...)

Of course, if you are speaking for Siglent, I guess now we all have an express warranty that "everything will be perfect."

The problem is much deeper because it affects the credibility of the vendor. No matter how good a product is (the X-E is better than the Rigol DS1000Z) when the manufacturer can't be trusted at all, claiming that they have a three year warranty which they won't honor.

Did you mean manufacturer ?


It's even bigger than that !

I manage NZ warranty for Siglent and any unit I have sold previous to this issue coming to light falls firmly into my lap, not Siglent's ! The instant I had caps I reworked all units in stock but I have enough other non-reworked units 'out there' to be cause for concern in my small marketplace....but not unmanageable.



Which reminds me.....must ask Siglent for more caps.


Offer to all my NZ customers with pre-Nov 17 SDS1202X-E, contact me for free rework or to check if it's already been done.

Fantastic support from a distributor such as yourself deserves    for a company who is not worthy 
To fix this Siglent issue takes time and money away from your business and family.  I sure hope you will get compensated for your noble efforts.  If you were a local vendor of mine, you would have me as a customer for life...  Thank you Tautech!

[tautech]

Thanks.

Many like myself find themselves in a similar position. 
For the big distributors the problem is just too big to manage 'in house'.

[borjam]

The problem is much deeper because it affects the credibility of the vendor. No matter how good a product is (the X-E is better than the Rigol DS1000Z) when the manufacturer can't be trusted at all, claiming that they have a three year warranty which they won't honor.

Did you mean manufacturer ?

BIG APOLOGY, YES MANUFACTURER!
(English as a second language!)

I manage NZ warranty for Siglent and any unit I have sold previous to this issue coming to light falls firmly into my lap, not Siglent's ! The instant I had caps I reworked all units in stock but I have enough other non-reworked units 'out there' to be cause for concern in my small marketplace....but not unmanageable.

They should have either recalled the affected stock or compensated your expenses for reworking them.

Offer to all my NZ customers with pre-Nov 17 SDS1202X-E, contact me for free rework or to check if it's already been done.

As we say in Spain quoting "Poema de Mio Cid": "What an outstanding knight, if only he served a good lord!"

The product is very good but they must understand the long term benefits of correcting their own mistakes.

[rf-loop]

Thanks.

Many like myself find themselves in a similar position. 
For the big distributors the problem is just too big to manage 'in house'.

Unfortunately. When we are an electronics hobbyist, a professional and then also sometimes selling something, it's as  we have to do so for not destroy our own faces.


It can also ask from Siglent if it is intelligent or stupid to break the camel's back if there is still long way home.


What are many big distributors. (I do not even talk about Amazon like drop shippers what sell pants or scopes or what ever can easy sell) Interesting only for instant sales. They are often only the senders of the sales package - mass sellers. Mostly they do not even know what's inside the package or how it works. Barely just copy the manufacturer's product information sheet or other seller's information to shop web side. Some times even images are wrong or fake. Some times sales persons have never seen product irl what they sell. How can ask these sellers offer some repair service or technical after sales customer help. Just, nothing.

Of course there is also good and high quality big sellers who are professionals!

But then we can also ask. How many hours usually peoples want do work for 10 dollar, rmb or euro.  I, as hobbyist, I can do even 1 hour if I get   -1000 dollar. (yes this sign is right). As we know all hobby eat some money. But  after then I may do 100 hour and get +10 dollar for hour. Life is...

[nctnico]

Some times sales persons have never seen product irl what they sell. How can ask these sellers offer some repair service or technical after sales customer help. Just, nothing.

But the product is cheap. What do you want? If you want decent service then you have to spend more money.
Tautech deserves a big pad on the shoulder  for trying to clean up after Siglent but even he has to realise this whole affair just eats into his profits (time spend and sales lost).