Author Topic: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes  (Read 149746 times)

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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1200 on: January 29, 2019, 08:04:37 pm »
I should also point out probes have there own voltage ratings, looking on the side of a random one I have on hand (X1: 150V, X10: 300V) its not a siglent probe, so check yours first.

If the probe cannot handle the voltage, but the scope can, it means you will just have to use a coax cable to measure it.

Siglent example PP510 and PP215 and PB470
10x  600VDC  (or AC peak)
1x    300VDC  (or AC peak)
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline plurn

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1201 on: January 30, 2019, 03:44:58 am »
I should also point out probes have there own voltage ratings, looking on the side of a random one I have on hand (X1: 150V, X10: 300V) its not a siglent probe, so check yours first.

If the probe cannot handle the voltage, but the scope can, it means you will just have to use a coax cable to measure it.

Siglent example PP510 and PP215 and PB470
10x  600VDC  (or AC peak)
1x    300VDC  (or AC peak)

Just checked one of my siglent PP510 probes and it says this on the probe itself:

1x   150V
10x  300V
CAT II

user guide for that probe says:
max input voltage: 1X:150V RMS CAT II&10X:300V RMS CAT II
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1202 on: January 30, 2019, 07:22:26 am »
I should also point out probes have there own voltage ratings, looking on the side of a random one I have on hand (X1: 150V, X10: 300V) its not a siglent probe, so check yours first.

If the probe cannot handle the voltage, but the scope can, it means you will just have to use a coax cable to measure it.

Siglent example PP510 and PP215 and PB470
10x  600VDC  (or AC peak)
1x    300VDC  (or AC peak)

Just checked one of my siglent PP510 probes and it says this on the probe itself:

1x   150V
10x  300V
CAT II

user guide for that probe says:
max input voltage: 1X:150V RMS CAT II&10X:300V RMS CAT II

You are right.
I chek PP215 and PB470 from real probe in my hand.
PP510 I check from Siglent list what I have get from Siglent and it say:
Quote
PP510 1X/10X attenuation, 85/18pf, 1M/10Mohm, 6M/100MHz, 300V/600V,
operating temperature -15 to 75 degrees

Same as PB470 and PP215 exept bandwidth.

Now I open one scope carton and take PP510 my hand and.....    ....and it is just as you told 150/300V.

Except...
PP215 is 300/600V DC and  PK AC

PP510 probe read 1x 150V  10x 300V CAT II and nothing more
but in probe pouch small sheet reads
1x  150V  RMS, 10x 300V RMS

Ok if I think 300V AC RMS. Then Vpk is  424V rounded 400Vpk.
But then, what is AC without frequency. Oh yes, one mHz and uHz is also AC. All except theoretical DC is AC. And it do not exist in nature. So, only conclusion is that it can also turn to 300V AC RMS, 400Vpk, 400V "DC". ;)

Then for more mess...

Attached part of Siglent's probes data sheet. There all these probes have same info exept BW and it is also strange. I do not anymore believe it..

What to believe now. How it can be this kind of mess.

PP215 probe pouch small info sheet: 1x: 300V&10x:600V Working voltage (Vp-p)

I have not previously looked these so carefully due to fact that no one have asked anything about over some tens of volts because it is not so common that serious users use this kind of probes for high voltage things and who ever perhaps use they are normally enough educated so that they do not need ask anything. One I have told to some people, it last normal 230Vac when 10x.

But I must say,  the information is rather confusing and contradictory. I guess those who are writing these papers don't even really know what these are and how the parameters should be written so that the interpretation is unambiguous and appropriate.

So, what is final conclusion...
 
I can say "Who knows" until smoke come out.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 03:28:30 pm by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Online Rerouter

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1203 on: February 06, 2019, 11:34:19 pm »
Some more command Info,

To dump the full decode memory use the command "DCLR", you have 2 options, "DCLR? HEAD" which looks to scrape the length of the decode table, and "DCLR? DATA" which dumps exactly what you see on the decode list (whitespace and all), with the entry number and timestamps.

I've dug furthur into the DeCo_PAram Command, It has keywords (BUS,LIST,FOMT,LSSC,B1LSFN,B2LSFN,LSMN) but not yet clear on what data should be passed for each.

Next up, the decoder commands, these commands are used to setup a decoder via SCPI, they have query's but they are set to return 1, so my best guess is the queries are "To be developed later",
B1:DCCN (Can Decoder for Bus 1), has the Keywords (DIS,CANH,CANHT,CANL,CANLT,SRC,BAUD)
B1:DCIC (I2C Decoder for Bus 1), has the Keywords (DIS,SCL,SCLT,SDA,SDAT,RW)
B1:DCLN (Lin Decoder for Bus 1), has the Keywords (DIS,SRC,SRCT,BAUD)
B1:DCSP (SPI Decoder for Bus 1), has the Keywords (DIS,CLK,CLKT,EDGE,MISO,MISOT,MOSI,MOSIT,CSTP,CS,CST,NCS,NCST,LMT,BTOD,DTLG)
B1:DCUT (Uart Decoder for Bus 1), has the Keywords (DIS,RX,RXT,TX,TXT,BAUD,DTLG,PRCK,STOP,IDLE,BTOD)

Now my feeling is for the Pairs, e.g. RX / RXT, RX is the input that channel is on, RXT is the trigger threshold for that channel. as for its full documentation, that may come later, just felt I would raise this as the decode buffer is something people have been after
 

Offline gamerpaddy

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1204 on: February 07, 2019, 12:18:42 am »
Just fixed a bug i thought it wasnt a bug until i accidentally fixed it..
My scope was unusable under 10mv/div at 1x, lots of noise. i tought its a smps going full retard somewhere in my house, but i turned everything off and even put the scope on a USV.. still this weird noise
it consisted of 20khz and 30khz peaks, some more in the upper band at around -50..40dB
I tried calibrating, but it did not solve anything.   
Even shorting the probes didnt help much.
it looked like this:

I did this production mode hack back then, so i didnt wanted to do a firmware update.
But now i tried updating to the latest firmware since meh what could happen, it updated without problems, and even kept the hack active (the firmware from Aug/Sept 2018)
And the noise issue was gone, i was now able to go below 1mv/div and have a useable line on my screen. 



 

Offline mroek

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1205 on: February 08, 2019, 06:31:11 am »
I have ordered a 1104X-E, hoping to get it next week. However, I have a question: This model has no real on/off switch, which I'm not a huge fan of. I guess it's because they want it to properly shut down every time (hence only a soft button), but an additional physical switch to remove power could still have been there. Just like the switch on a computer power supply.

So, what do you guys do? Leave it plugged in, or do you unplug it after use? Or do you add some external switch to cut power?
 

Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1206 on: February 08, 2019, 06:38:54 am »
I have ordered a 1104X-E, hoping to get it next week. However, I have a question: This model has no real on/off switch, which I'm not a huge fan of. I guess it's because they want it to properly shut down every time (hence only a soft button), but an additional physical switch to remove power could still have been there. Just like the switch on a computer power supply.

So, what do you guys do? Leave it plugged in, or do you unplug it after use? Or do you add some external switch to cut power?
Welcome to the forum.

You certainly can add an external switch but use scopes soft button to turn it OFF first.....it needs a second or two to shut down its OS correctly.
If I'm not at my bench using test equipment it's OFF at the wall.
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Offline mroek

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1207 on: February 08, 2019, 06:49:43 am »
I have ordered a 1104X-E, hoping to get it next week. However, I have a question: This model has no real on/off switch, which I'm not a huge fan of. I guess it's because they want it to properly shut down every time (hence only a soft button), but an additional physical switch to remove power could still have been there. Just like the switch on a computer power supply.

So, what do you guys do? Leave it plugged in, or do you unplug it after use? Or do you add some external switch to cut power?
Welcome to the forum.

You certainly can add an external switch but use scopes soft button to turn it OFF first.....it needs a second or two to shut down its OS correctly.
If I'm not at my bench using test equipment it's OFF at the wall.

Thanks! Having the power properly cut when unused is obviously the best strategy, so I guess I'll just have to add an external switch, just to be on the safe side.

And thanks for the welcome as well! I'm an electronics engineer that hasn't really done any electronics in a great many years, but suddenly I got the urge to order a new oscilloscope. My TDS210 still works, but the data record length is laughable by today's standards. And only 2 channels as well. I also have an old Goldstar OS9020G, but it hasn't seen any use for at least 15 years. It just takes up space, and has no real purpose any more.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1208 on: February 08, 2019, 06:54:57 am »
And thanks for the welcome as well! I'm an electronics engineer that hasn't really done any electronics in a great many years, but suddenly I got the urge to order a new oscilloscope. My TDS210 still works, but the data record length is laughable by today's standards. And only 2 channels as well.
Massive step up from a TDS210 and great you already have DSO experience.  :)
I'm sure you'll love your new X-E.
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Online Gege34

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1209 on: February 08, 2019, 08:36:55 am »
M'y scope (1104) is on power strip with a switch. And I switch it off when I doesn't need it for a long time.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1210 on: February 08, 2019, 08:43:50 am »
I didnĀ“t care that much of it, although I never understand why using a soft-button for power on/off....
 

Online Rerouter

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1211 on: February 09, 2019, 09:24:14 pm »
Follow up on the SAG1021, Its Capable of a 6V amplitude, with a +-7V offset range, sadly its limited by the output op amp (u8), to +-4V max output before it clips, If one wanted to, they could replace the output op amp to get to +-5V, or replace and increase the supply rails to get the output to +-10V range with the same 6V amplitude limit. with no significant software changes being required, apart from the XML tag on the scope that tells the UI the min and max offset limits.

Also there is a 16 bit 1MHz Texas Instruments on the board that I cannot understand the purpose of, just generates a 7.5KHz square wave that drops off in amplitude when set to DC output.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 10:23:17 pm by Rerouter »
 

Offline tinhead

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1212 on: February 10, 2019, 12:25:59 pm »
Follow up on the SAG1021

after deeper look one can see, it is SDG1010/25/50,  but with one channel and yeah different FPGA.


Also there is a 16 bit 1MHz Texas Instruments on the board that I cannot understand the purpose of, just generates a 7.5KHz square wave that drops off in amplitude when set to DC output.

on SDG1010/25/50 that TI DAC is connected to 4051 common input and from there "everywhere", all 8 outputs are used. On SAG1021 however exact the same, TI DAC to 4051, but only two outputs are used, both then buffered by TP1272 and then middle of the relais field. Whatever this circuit id doing - and there are other interesting things like resistor-jumpers here and there, i'm to lazy to reverse it, for now i think i will dump everything first.
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Offline mroek

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1213 on: February 14, 2019, 11:14:21 am »
I initally assumed that it would be possible to use all four channels to get two "poor mans differential probes", but after some research, I discovered that there is only one maths channel. That's a bummer, as I had hoped to use this technique to measure both H-bridges of a stepper driver simultaneously. I know this technique isn't exactly stellar on a modern DSO (as Performa01's review shows), but I think it would have been sufficent for this purpose.

Doing advanced math (like multiple FFTs or such) is clearly way too demanding, but something as simple as adding/subtracting two channel pairs would be entirely feasible. However, I doubt Siglent will be inclined to add something like this to the firmware. It isn't something that is often needed, I guess.
 

Offline mroek

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1214 on: February 23, 2019, 10:39:48 pm »
My 1104X-E arrived this week, and I've just played around a little with it. First impression is quite good, it was surprisingly heavy and appears quite well built. The probes doesn't have the same quality feel as the scope itself, though. The fan is unfortunately louder than I had hoped. It has no whine or anything (thankfully), it's just that it is quite loud.

I still wish it had two maths channels though, since that would allow usage of all four channels to function as two "poor mans differential probes". Adding that to the frmware would clearly be possible, but Siglent probably doesn't care.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1215 on: February 23, 2019, 11:10:34 pm »
Quote
Adding that to the frmware would clearly be possible, but Siglent probably doesn't care.

Find it out... ;)

Ask them about it, if nobody ask for it....
 

Offline mroek

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1216 on: February 25, 2019, 11:05:54 am »
@Martin72: I've posted the question to the thread that Siglent support supposedly monitors.

But now I have a different question: On my brand new scope (SDS1104X-E) , if I short the probes and look at the measured DC voltage, it appears that especially on the 2V/div range there is a DC offset that is higher than I'd expect. On channel 1 for instance, it is around -125 mV, which I think is a bit too much. It is enough that you can clearly see that the trace is offset from the vertical position markers. The other channels are a little better, but all have a negative offset of more than 80 mV.

The other ranges seems to be a lot better, so why is the 2V/div range so "bad"? On my old Tek TDS210 I'm seeing around 15-20 mV (in this range), which is more in line with what I'd expect.

I've also tried running a self calibration, (which actually did improve the situation, because before doing that it was even worse). Am I just expecting too much here?

 

Online Rerouter

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1217 on: February 25, 2019, 11:13:01 am »
Did you run the self calibration with the probes unplugged. The self calibration works by setting the channel offset dac. Measuring the voltage and using that to figure out the 0 point and gain for all gain and attenuation steps. If you have probes plugged in at the time that will cause some errors.

Equally is the offset the same on different ranges. E.g the 500uV range.
 

Offline mroek

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1218 on: February 25, 2019, 11:17:33 am »
Yes, I unplugged all the probes before running the self calibration. I'll run it again and see if it changes anything.

Not sure I understood your last sentence. Did you mean that the offset should read about the same on all ranges?
 

Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1219 on: February 25, 2019, 11:19:50 am »
@Martin72: I've posted the question to the thread that Siglent support supposedly monitors.

But now I have a different question: On my brand new scope (SDS1104X-E) , if I short the probes and look at the measured DC voltage, it appears that especially on the 2V/div range there is a DC offset that is higher than I'd expect. On channel 1 for instance, it is around -125 mV, which I think is a bit too much. It is enough that you can clearly see that the trace is offset from the vertical position markers. The other channels are a little better, but all have a negative offset of more than 80 mV.

The other ranges seems to be a lot better, so why is the 2V/div range so "bad"? On my old Tek TDS210 I'm seeing around 15-20 mV (in this range), which is more in line with what I'd expect.

I've also tried running a self calibration, (which actually did improve the situation, because before doing that it was even worse). Am I just expecting too much here?
What Rerouter said plus be sure to have it running for ~30 minutes before Self Cal. After which if running latest FW you can have the Quick Cal turned ON to take care of any little temp drift issues.

Let us know if all that works as it should for you please.
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Offline mroek

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1220 on: February 25, 2019, 11:45:01 am »
I've had it running for more than an hour now:

Code: [Select]
/ # uptime
 01:12:12 up  1:12,  0 users,  load average: 2.13, 1.53, 1.41

And I've ran the self calibration twice in the last 10 minutes. Seems to change a little between each run, but still quite a bit more offset than I'm happy with. The "Quick Cal" is on by default, and the scope came with the latest firmware (and it's hardware version 04). It was calibrated at the factory in December 2018.

After the last self calibration, it still shows an offset of around -120 mV, as can be seen here:



I'm using averaging (in the Acquire menu) to more cleanly show the offset here.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1221 on: February 25, 2019, 11:55:22 am »
I've had it running for more than an hour now:

Code: [Select]
/ # uptime
 01:12:12 up  1:12,  0 users,  load average: 2.13, 1.53, 1.41

And I've ran the self calibration twice in the last 10 minutes. Seems to change a little between each run, but still quite a bit more offset than I'm happy with. The "Quick Cal" is on by default, and the scope came with the latest firmware (and it's hardware version 04). It was calibrated at the factory in December 2018.

After the last self calibration, it still shows an offset of around -120 mV, as can be seen here:



I'm using averaging (in the Acquire menu) to more cleanly show the offset here.
OK, thanks.
I'll shoot tech support an email to make them aware of this.....maybe they have a new firmware in the making to address this offset.

One other thing, is your lab low on EMI noise.....just in case it's effecting the Self Cal could you run it again in another room please ?
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Online Rerouter

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1222 on: February 25, 2019, 11:57:43 am »
Ok. Now i understand better. Your running up against the limitations of the ADC in the scope. 2V/div is 16V over 256 steps is 62.5mV per step. Or about 2 steps offset.

I did not yet work out the exact mapping of the offset dac. It should be able to trim in better than that

For curiousity open the web interface and send the query C1:DACC? You will get a 4 or 5 digit number back. Add about 30 to the number and send back the command "C1:DACC number" and see if you can trim it back to be dead on the 0 line.

Equally does the offset change between scope probe connected and disconnected.
 

Offline mroek

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1223 on: February 25, 2019, 12:10:48 pm »
@tautech: My lab has a few cellular units running that can cause some EMI, but if that was it, shouldn't the other ranges be affected as well? It seems only the 2V/div range has serious issues. I will however rerun the self cal in a different room and report back, as you requested.

@Rerouter: The number I got back from the DACC command was 9811, and by changing it to 9807, I got the offset to become around +7 mV instead of -120 mV, so a massive improvement. The value doesn't stick, though. If I change to a different range and then back to 2V/div, the DACC value also returns to what it was.

I guess that means the self calibration routine might not do a good enough job?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 12:12:27 pm by mroek »
 

Online Rerouter

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1224 on: February 25, 2019, 12:16:35 pm »
The only exact way i can phrase it is later firmware versions may tweak it.

The offset should be fairly consistant between attenuator relay steps. As that is when the offset dac changes range aswell

There is already some quirks on the fine gain. This may just be related. I suspect its using an immidiate value and not a average for the offset calibration steps.

Any change with the pribe plugged vs unplugged
 


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