Author Topic: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes  (Read 303189 times)

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Online HendriXML

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1775 on: December 06, 2020, 11:32:34 pm »
Interesting.. Maybe post some screenshots of different zoom levels? (Trigger settings included.)

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Offline kcbrown

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1776 on: December 07, 2020, 12:12:43 am »
Have you checked Holdoff is set to minimum ?

Holdoff isn't available with the slope trigger type.


Quote
Frequency ? So we can play along at home.

60 Hz.  Capture rate is 500 megasamples/sec.  I'm using 2ms/div horizontal and 500mV/div vertical.


Quote
Screenshot using a Run/Stop so we can also see the waveform.

I'll show that along with the mask.  This time I captured using "peak detect", and I've saved the CSV for that as well.  Analysis of the CSV shows no real difference with respect to finding the initial condition despite peak detect being used.  This time the smallest voltage seen between -1.4ms and 0 is 4.33V, well above the 3.5V or less one would expect to see.

How do I take a screenshot with it showing the menu it was on immediately prior to hitting the "save/recall" button?  Whenever I take a screenshot, it always shows the "save/recall" menu itself, which isn't very useful here ...
 
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Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1777 on: December 07, 2020, 12:14:29 am »
How do I take a screenshot with it showing the menu it was on immediately prior to hitting the "save/recall" button?  Whenever I take a screenshot, it always shows the "save/recall" menu itself, which isn't very useful here ...
Blue Print button.  ;)
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Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1778 on: December 07, 2020, 12:18:00 am »
Have you tried swapping the Level positions ?
See how they are half pointers.....and you're using a rising trigger.
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Offline kcbrown

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1779 on: December 07, 2020, 12:20:53 am »
Interesting.. Maybe post some screenshots of different zoom levels? (Trigger settings included.)

I'll do better than that.  Here's the CSV from the 14 megasample capture with it in peak detect mode, from -1.4ms to 0ms.  It's in the attached zip file.  I took the header portion and put it at the top, so it'll look like a full CSV generated by the scope (sans the serial number), but it's actually just a small subset of the full capture.

This CSV corresponds to the screenshot that I just posted, which I'll add again just for clarity.

« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 12:24:54 am by kcbrown »
 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1780 on: December 07, 2020, 12:24:05 am »
Have you tried swapping the Level positions ?
See how they are half pointers.....and you're using a rising trigger.

It doesn't let me do that.  In the soft menu item, it has them labeled as "lower" and "upper", and there they're correct: 3.5V for lower, 4.5V for upper.  It doesn't let me switch them.

To be clear, the trigger *does* work, in that it will actually trigger on the rising edge most of the time.  The problem is that it will also occasionally trigger on the falling edge inexplicably.   I'm using "normal" trigger mode, so it would be obvious if it weren't triggering properly.
 

Online HendriXML

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1781 on: December 07, 2020, 12:26:19 am »
Wouldn't a mask fail not also stop the aquisition?

Indeed level 1 is the high level, level 2 the low, which surprised me when decoding the scpi response.
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1782 on: December 07, 2020, 12:33:14 am »
Are you using normal or auto trigger mode?
 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1783 on: December 07, 2020, 12:35:09 am »
Wouldn't a mask fail not also stop the aquisition?

The mask feature can be configured to stop the acquisition upon failure, and that's how I've got it configured here.  It's really handy if you want to catch a misbehaving waveform in the act.


 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1784 on: December 07, 2020, 12:37:48 am »
Are you using normal or auto trigger mode?

Normal.
 
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1785 on: December 07, 2020, 12:38:54 am »
Wouldn't a mask fail not also stop the aquisition?

The mask feature can be configured to stop the acquisition upon failure, and that's how I've got it configured here.  It's really handy if you want to catch a misbehaving waveform in the act.
So we're not looking at a triggered stop in the screenshot.  :-//
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1786 on: December 07, 2020, 12:43:19 am »
Maybe using segments and review them for a failing trigger is an idea? Thus not using masks ar all?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 12:45:54 am by HendriXML »
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Offline kcbrown

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1787 on: December 07, 2020, 01:01:10 am »
Wouldn't a mask fail not also stop the aquisition?

The mask feature can be configured to stop the acquisition upon failure, and that's how I've got it configured here.  It's really handy if you want to catch a misbehaving waveform in the act.
So we're not looking at a triggered stop in the screenshot.  :-//

The trigger just determines when the waveform is captured.  I'm using the mask to automatically stop the scope when a violation of the expected waveform is detected.  They're completely different subsystems that work in tandem.

The issue here is that the triggering mechanism is capturing waveforms when I wouldn't expect it to.  When that happens, the mask mechanism detects it and stops the scope, thus allowing you to see the waveform that was captured and which failed the mask.
 

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1788 on: December 07, 2020, 01:07:25 am »
Wouldn't a mask fail not also stop the aquisition?

The mask feature can be configured to stop the acquisition upon failure, and that's how I've got it configured here.  It's really handy if you want to catch a misbehaving waveform in the act.
So we're not looking at a triggered stop in the screenshot.  :-//

The trigger just determines when the waveform is captured.  I'm using the mask to automatically stop the scope when a violation of the expected waveform is detected.  They're completely different subsystems that work in tandem.

The issue here is that the triggering mechanism is capturing waveforms when I wouldn't expect it to.  When that happens, the mask mechanism detects it and stops the scope, thus allowing you to see the waveform that was captured and which failed the mask.
But there're now 2 things in play...
Either the triggering does not work as you expect OR the masking and when it stops doesn't work as you expect... It seems like a good idea to take one away..
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Online bdunham7

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1789 on: December 07, 2020, 01:12:55 am »
But there're now 2 things in play...
Either the triggering does not work as you expect OR the masking and when it stops doesn't work as you expect... It seems like a good idea to take one away..

You don't need the mask to see that the trigger has happened in the wrong spot and the mask doesn't affect the trigger or the capture, it just stops the scope and prevents any future triggers.  What you see is exactly what you would see if you got lucky with a single shot and captured the mistrigger.  The mask isn't anything to worry about here, but I'm a bit puzzled as to the operation of the trigger.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1790 on: December 07, 2020, 01:15:16 am »
The issue here is that the triggering mechanism is capturing waveforms when I wouldn't expect it to. 

Can you change the timebase to 1ms/div so that you get the full 1GS/s sample rate and then do the same test to see if it mistriggers? 
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1791 on: December 07, 2020, 01:17:56 am »
Maybe using segments and review them for a failing trigger is an idea? Thus not using masks ar all?

Sure, I could do that too.  The problem is that in order to do that, I have to reduce the number of samples captured, thus reducing the chance that I'll see what the triggering mechanism saw.  I'd also have to manually stop the scope quickly enough that the errant waveform is still in one of the segments.  I could use a 14k point sample buffer, and that'd give me lots of segments, but that would also minimize the chance that I'd see the problem that the triggering mechanism saw.

I did try that just now, by the way (using a 14k sample buffer), but haven't yet found a waveform where it was apparent that the triggering mechanism was doing the right thing by triggering on what looks like the falling edge.
 

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1792 on: December 07, 2020, 01:20:00 am »
But there're now 2 things in play...
Either the triggering does not work as you expect OR the masking and when it stops doesn't work as you expect... It seems like a good idea to take one away..

You don't need the mask to see that the trigger has happened in the wrong spot and the mask doesn't affect the trigger or the capture, it just stops the scope and prevents any future triggers.  What you see is exactly what you would see if you got lucky with a single shot and captured the mistrigger.  The mask isn't anything to worry about here, but I'm a bit puzzled as to the operation of the trigger.
Maybe it is a combination of mask and trigger, so I would first start to look for the simplest setup that causes the issue. If it doesn't happen without a mask thats good info. If it also happens without a mask the screenshot might give a better insight. For now it seems that the inverse of the mask would have given a valid trigger.. thats puzzling.. and cannot be discarded imo.
Edit..
Not really puzzling,  that how the mask get synced off course.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 01:59:54 am by HendriXML »
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Offline kcbrown

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1793 on: December 07, 2020, 01:22:22 am »
The issue here is that the triggering mechanism is capturing waveforms when I wouldn't expect it to. 

Can you change the timebase to 1ms/div so that you get the full 1GS/s sample rate and then do the same test to see if it mistriggers?

Sure thing.  That's in progress now.  Watch it not mistrigger because it knows it'll get caught redhanded with this setup.    :D
 

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1794 on: December 07, 2020, 01:31:23 am »
Sure, I could do that too.  The problem is that in order to do that, I have to reduce the number of samples captured, thus reducing the chance that I'll see what the triggering mechanism saw.  I'd also have to manually stop the scope quickly enough that the errant waveform is still in one of the segments.  I could use a 14k point sample buffer, and that'd give me lots of segments, but that would also minimize the chance that I'd see the problem that the triggering mechanism saw.
In aquisition menu, you can set the number of segments you want to capture and then it stops. These can then be replayed, I think a wrong one should be easy to spot then. Using a script the segments can be analysed automatically,  but that might be a bridge to far..
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Offline kcbrown

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1795 on: December 07, 2020, 01:50:16 am »
Sure, I could do that too.  The problem is that in order to do that, I have to reduce the number of samples captured, thus reducing the chance that I'll see what the triggering mechanism saw.  I'd also have to manually stop the scope quickly enough that the errant waveform is still in one of the segments.  I could use a 14k point sample buffer, and that'd give me lots of segments, but that would also minimize the chance that I'd see the problem that the triggering mechanism saw.
In aquisition menu, you can set the number of segments you want to capture and then it stops. These can then be replayed,

Interesting, I didn't know that.  That could come in handy.  But it presumes that the failure rate is high enough for a failure to occur within the number of segments you specified.  That said, I suppose you could just keep running it until a failure is seen.

If you're not using the mask mechanism, then you'd have to see the failure with your own eyes.  Not impossible, certainly.  Might be worth doing if we really want to eliminate the mask mechanism as a contributing factor.

And, it turns out that it's not that hard at all.  I did this, with 140k points per capture.  There was one failed waveform in just over 200 segments.  That one waveform does not show any evidence as to the trigger's stated conditions being met, despite the fact that the trigger fired.

Quote
I think a wrong one should be easy to spot then. Using a script the segments can be analysed automatically,  but that might be a bridge to far..

Wouldn't be that hard, actually.  But it raises a question: how do you save all of the segments?  I see no option in the save/restore menu to do that.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1796 on: December 07, 2020, 01:53:50 am »
And, it turns out that it's not that hard at all.  I did this, with 140k points per capture.  There was one failed waveform in just over 200 segments.  That one waveform does not show any evidence as to the trigger's stated conditions being met, despite the fact that the trigger fired.
Yes because it rearmed. Use Single and it should capture it at any timebase setting.
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Offline kcbrown

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1797 on: December 07, 2020, 02:02:34 am »
Quote from: bdunham7 on Today at 07:15:16 am>Quote from: kcbrown on Today at 07:01:10 am
The issue here is that the triggering mechanism is capturing waveforms when I wouldn't expect it to. 

Can you change the timebase to 1ms/div so that you get the full 1GS/s sample rate and then do the same test to see if it mistriggers?

OK, I did this, and here are the results.

The attached screenshots show the captured waveform in full.  One with the mask, and one without.

Also, I've attached the CSV of the data from -1.5ms to 0ms (I had to use 7zip to archive it because zip didn't compress it enough).  My analysis of it shows that the minimum voltage seen in that interval is seen at -27 ns, with a value of 4.33V.
 
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Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1798 on: December 07, 2020, 02:08:08 am »
Obviously there is some glitch firing the rising trigger as seen within the higher level in this screenshot.



To examine this better the timebase needs zooming in so to see the spikes that are firing the trigger.

As posted before, use the blue Print button to grab screenshots and send them straight to a USB stick.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 02:10:05 am by tautech »
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #1799 on: December 07, 2020, 02:08:18 am »
Wouldn't be that hard, actually.  But it raises a question: how do you save all of the segments?  I see no option in the save/restore menu to do that.
Using script the data of a segment can be retrieved when it is in view, to get all the script needs to place them in view one after another. Using the gui could be time consuming if it even can be done like that.
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