Author Topic: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes  (Read 174333 times)

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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #325 on: November 25, 2017, 09:03:24 am »
I do not even understand why Rigol fans are so alarmed about this Siglent model.
I'm not alarmed, I just think the Siglent fans are funny.

I'm not sure why the DS1054Z attracts so much hate. The 2-channel Siglent arrived with plenty of bugs but was there a dozen endless threads on here bashing it? Noooo.  :-//

some like blonde and some like redheads.

Both of those have plenty of user interface problems and very large discrepancies in the readouts.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #326 on: November 25, 2017, 09:05:27 am »
Can someone please do a real test on the decoder functionality in the oscilloscope?

I really doubt it will be different than the 2-channel version.

(apart from SPI, obviously)

Has nobody done an extensive critique of the 2-channel model yet?  :popcorn:
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #327 on: November 25, 2017, 01:52:13 pm »
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #328 on: November 25, 2017, 02:19:59 pm »
(very quick teardown video)

No big surprises in the hardware.  :popcorn:

You'd think there's be a way to bolt the AWG module to the side of the 'scope. And that it would be a matching color.

 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #329 on: November 25, 2017, 05:37:54 pm »


Is it time to small thinking how oscilloscope works for understanding better what you see and then wonder why it show multiple captures when you are working with trigger normal mode. Is it time for lesson?
2 points wink: It have quite fast trigger rearm.
3 points wink: Screen update period is perhaps roughly around 25ms
4 points wink: How many trigged acquisition it can do for one display refresh.
1 point wink. Trigger normal mode. It trig continuously as long as there is detected trigger events including short rearm time.

You can inspect and learn something after you do:

Make this shock and look there is multiple waveforms on the screen and care that it do not receive anymore triggering events. (set trigger level enough hig for avoid random trig fron some noise or environmental peaks induced to input)

After you have these multiple waveform (2--3---4--- or so on the screen and it is waiting trigger event)

Stop scope pushing it to history wiev.
Now you can scroll every separate capture and perhaps also time stamps...

Is it good to make some "theory & practice" lesson video so that peoples understand how modern fast scope works. It is nice if you can do some day.
We have also some times seen in forum when peoples who have less experience wondering why some oscilloscope show some times  multiple acquisitions on the screen  when they believe there must be only one. If you want only one. Use single shot trigger. It is waiting trig event, and it capture only this next first event.



If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #330 on: November 25, 2017, 05:53:32 pm »
What Dave shows is definitely a bug because it isn't consistent. If it is some kind of persistence mode then I'd expect the previous acquisition to show in a darker shade so the most recent acquisition is clear to distinguish (for example: Tektronix does this on some models). Normal mode or single mode doesn't matter. In either case the last acquisition should be shown and not two different acquisitions.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 06:14:20 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #331 on: November 25, 2017, 06:51:35 pm »
What Dave shows is definitely a bug because it isn't consistent. If it is some kind of persistence mode then I'd expect the previous acquisition to show in a darker shade so the most recent acquisition is clear to distinguish (for example: Tektronix does this on some models). Normal mode or single mode doesn't matter. In either case the last acquisition should be shown and not two different acquisitions.

Yes and no.

There Keysight looks like works right. But it also show multiple acq if I see it right. And fast scope need do that. I can explain why but too long story now at this time. So only shortly.

Also Siglent show multiple acg as it need do in first phase! Not only 2 but if there exist more triggers (burst situation), as in Dave video also happend burst  leading more acguisitions to one frame,  it need show these all, naturally, because if triggering continue (and it can not predict what happen very soon in short future) it need continue multiple acg displaying in every display frame depending incoming signal... up to  (100000k acg max/s) what means max around well over 2500 acg in one display frame (if it example refresh 40 times / s 40ms interval  and other things make possible this up to 100kwfm/s <peak> speed ).

But then if there do not exist anymore new trigger. This is now here this problem (possible bug or possible wrong think in FW programmer thinking). 
After some reasonable time it need clean display so that only last acg is displaying.   
In this point we can think what is user need. If there is not user selectable two choices, I think also that these older acq need soon clean out and leave only last one.  But if designer make it more sophisticated there also can be user selectable choice - if designer want do it. Leave last acguisitions (stacked) on the screen or leave only last (after short refresh time). 
In all cases with Siglent, user can look these previous acquistions from history buffer if he want see these previoious acquistions before last one.

Edit: Forget one setting.
If user want be sure only one acg/frame there is: Acquisition mode selection. Fast / Slow. Slow means no DPO. One acquistion for one display frame (if is is not changed).
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 12:34:49 am by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #332 on: November 25, 2017, 07:36:18 pm »
But if designer make it more sophisticated there also can be user selectable choice - if designer want do it. Leave last acguisitions (stacked) on the screen or leave only last (after short refresh time). 
That isn't sophisticated. That is called variable persistence and it has been available since around 1990 on (for example) the Tektronix TDS500/TDS700 series and many other DSOs.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline cbc02009

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #333 on: November 25, 2017, 07:50:30 pm »


Any idea when the full review will be posted? Still trying to decide between that and the rigol. The main things keeping me from the rigol are the loudness (near silent office at home, I'd like it to stay that way) and the menu lag (unless that's been fixed since the last time I used one). The new sale makes it even harder to resist though, and I guess I could always change out the fan, though I've heard mixed things about whether that is  long term or not.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #334 on: November 25, 2017, 07:54:03 pm »
What Dave shows is definitely a bug
Yes and no.

Oh, come on. If it was a Rigol you'd be starting a whole new thread/flamewar over that 'anomaly'.  :-DD

Any idea when the full review will be posted? Still trying to decide between that and the rigol.

Launch day is Monday. I suspect everybody with a 'scope is under NDA until then.

I don't believe anybody is thinking the Rigol will be better than the Siglent but the Siglent will be ~40% more money so it's not exactly an equal choice between the two. If you're going up to $500 then the Keysight 1000X isn't far away and the Keysight might be a better 'scope than the Siglent.  :o

etc. etc.

The real question is whether or not the Rigol meets your needs. If it does then it makes more sense to get yourself a 'scope plus a power supply instead of the Siglent (or whatever else you need).
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 09:00:33 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #335 on: November 25, 2017, 08:50:28 pm »
If you're going up to $500 then the Keysight 1000X isn't far away and that's a better 'scope than the Siglent.

How it is better?

I do not say Siglent is better but still need alöso note some things:

Look its measurements from highly decimated data, better than Rigol but with Siglent it loose hands down - or do it have full undecimated acguisition memory measurements. I do not exactly know truth but I suspect it do not. 
Look its speed. Look its fastest trigger rearm time.
Look its total joke segmented memory acquisition. Max 50 segments and very slow, 19 us minimuim trigger rearm time.
 Not at all waveform history buffer.
Not at all 500uV/div real full resolution full BW. It have 1mV/div full resolution. 500uV is only zoomed from 1mV/div
Quite short memory.
How about 1M FFT

Two channels and just everywhere you tell that 4 channel is must.

But one thing Keysight shine. It have 2GSa/s max.

And example decoding, perhaps they win hands down least in some decoding things, I do not know but I believe, due to long history they have exercised and perhaps hard coded to Asic?

But I'm interested how you argument it is just better. 

Is it better to think that some thing is better perhaps and some thing is worse - rest things depends user needs. I can not live without fast seqmented acg. Without normal mode backround working wfm history buffer can just live but it is least helpful to have also it.
1M max memory...hmmhhh...

Keysight name, oh yes.
I have been Hewlett-Packard fan starting from 60's - 70's  and I still have some lot of these "golden" equipments.
After then come one american lady who destroy it and after then some one change this rest (Agilent) to Keyshit with possible designed life time reduction.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #336 on: November 25, 2017, 09:08:25 pm »
If you're going up to $500 then the Keysight 1000X isn't far away and that's a better 'scope than the Siglent.

How it is better?

I'm assured that the firmware isn't full of bugs, that all measurements are 100% perfect. There's a guy from Keysight who talks directly to EEVBLOG users if they find anything.

The 2 channel Siglent didn't have a stellar release
Two channels and just everywhere you tell that 4 channel is must.

It's more like 2+1 channels - the trigger input can also be displayed on screen.

I don't recall saying "4 channel is must" but I've often said "2 channels isn't enough".
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #337 on: November 25, 2017, 09:30:53 pm »
Are these new X-E models replacing an existing model and if so which one are they going to drop.
 

Offline cbc02009

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #338 on: November 25, 2017, 10:18:24 pm »
If you're going up to $500 then the Keysight 1000X isn't far away and that's a better 'scope than the Siglent.

How it is better?

I'm assured that the firmware isn't full of bugs, that all measurements are 100% perfect. There's a guy from Keysight who talks directly to EEVBLOG users if they find anything.

Also, sorry to derail the thread. I can move my questions elsewhere if necessary.

The 2 channel Siglent didn't have a stellar release
Two channels and just everywhere you tell that 4 channel is must.

It's more like 2+1 channels - the trigger input can also be displayed on screen.

I don't recall saying "4 channel is must" but I've often said "2 channels isn't enough".

Can the trigger input work like a normal input in that regard (math, measure, etc) or does it just display on the screen? That might work.
 

Offline cbc02009

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #339 on: November 25, 2017, 10:20:12 pm »
Also, sorry for derailing the thread, I can ask questions elsewhere if that's better.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #340 on: November 25, 2017, 10:22:26 pm »
Are these new X-E models replacing an existing model and if so which one are they going to drop.
My guess is the low memory depth CFL series.
http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-detailxx.aspx?id=58&tid=1&T=2
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline Performa01

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #341 on: November 25, 2017, 11:28:17 pm »
What we have seen is the normal behavior for normal trigger mode for all SDS-series scopes. Just because it is different to other brands, this doesn’t automatically make it a bug. Where is the problem?

10MHz sine wave, 50% amplitude modulated at 50Hz, run mode:


Sine_10MHz_AM_50%_50Hz_Run
 
The usual intensity graded display. Now hit the [Stop] button.


Sine_10MHz_AM_50%_50Hz_Stop

Scope now knows that the user wants to stop and it shows the last acquisition. All the previous ones can be found in the history if needed.

Same scenario again, scope is in run mode, but now instead of hitting the [Stop] button we turn the input signal off.


Sine_10MHz_AM_50%_50Hz_Off

Scope is “Ready” and waits for a new trigger. It does not clear the screen buffer, which contains some 3300 acquisition records, captured within about 40ms. The scope does not know that the user considers the session to be over. Other brands seem to implement a timeout, Siglent does not.

Big problem?

No. If we desperately need to see only the last record, we can always hit the [Stop] button anytime we want.


Sine_10MHz_AM_50%_50Hz_Off_Stop

Voila, there is the latest acquisition again. And all the others in the history, where we can play them back at any speed we want to watch the original signal again, even though it’s long gone.

@rf-loop
The user has the choice already. It’s the stop button. Do we really need an automatic timeout? I for one do not, for sure.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 11:30:24 pm by Performa01 »
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #342 on: November 26, 2017, 12:07:51 am »
What Dave shows is that sometimes it shows one trace and sometimes two traces. That is inconsequent.
Secondly what you are describing is some kind of variable time persistence mode. In such a mode you'd expect the older acquisition to show as faded because how would you be able to determine which was the last acquired trace? Sure you can push buttons but that is not convenient. I don't recall ever using a DSO showing this kind of behaviour. The closest ones are the Tektronix TDS510A and TDS220 but in those the previous acquisition is always shown as a faded trace so it is clear which trace was the acquired most recently.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #343 on: November 26, 2017, 12:30:23 am »

@rf-loop
The user has the choice already. It’s the stop button. Do we really need an automatic timeout? I for one do not, for sure.

Not for me - of course.. I have many ways how I can use oscilloscope for my needs. Just also, as you told, there is many solutions for user, after he know his equipment and learn things to his muscle memory for use without even thinking. Some humans have more flexible brains and some peoples brains are like black and white and fixation to some "single truth" how equipment must work and if not this is always then bug but never bug or limit in own thinking or using practice.

It can implement example for mister n if it is essential. But then please selection form me that I can mostly shut off this "autoclean". I want be master and scope is slave.  Not opposite. (try to be master using example Keysight or just Riglol what do not let user shut off even sinc interpolation) - I wish good luck).

Also as previously told. If do not want DPO needed multiple captures for every display frame there is user selectable acquistion mode what do not capture more than one time to one display frame.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 12:41:50 am by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline TK

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #344 on: November 26, 2017, 12:30:57 am »
If you're going up to $500 then the Keysight 1000X isn't far away and that's a better 'scope than the Siglent.

How it is better?

I'm assured that the firmware isn't full of bugs, that all measurements are 100% perfect. There's a guy from Keysight who talks directly to EEVBLOG users if they find anything.

The 2 channel Siglent didn't have a stellar release
Two channels and just everywhere you tell that 4 channel is must.

It's more like 2+1 channels - the trigger input can also be displayed on screen.

I don't recall saying "4 channel is must" but I've often said "2 channels isn't enough".
The additional digital channel can be used on the serial decode function and it can also be added to the analog bus to form a 3-bit parallel decode bus.
 

Offline stj

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #345 on: November 26, 2017, 01:53:14 am »
i have been trying very hard not to post before the 27th,
but it's looking like i will be placing an order or 2 with RigolOnline either on tuesday, or december - depending on my card limit!!
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #346 on: November 26, 2017, 10:06:46 am »
It's more like 2+1 channels - the trigger input can also be displayed on screen.

I don't recall saying "4 channel is must" but I've often said "2 channels isn't enough".

Can the trigger input work like a normal input in that regard (math, measure, etc) or does it just display on the screen? That might work.

It's an on/off digital input (which is why I said "2+1 channels") so I'm not sure how useful it would be for math. It works for serial decoding, etc., though.

It's not as good as four channels but it's it's a lot better than two and worth considering if "quality", "responsiveness", etc. is what you're looking for.

 

Offline Priidik

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #347 on: November 27, 2017, 12:19:50 pm »
Does anyone know the ''high-res'' bit depth and bw limit in high res mode on these things?
Datasheet/manual is not clear on that.
Thanks!
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #348 on: November 27, 2017, 01:54:51 pm »
Does anyone know the ''high-res'' bit depth and bw limit in high res mode on these things?
Datasheet/manual is not clear on that.
Thanks!

There is not "High-Resolution" at all.
There is "Eres"

Eres priciples are well explained here.

http://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires

Also there is information how you can estimate BW with Eres filtering.

Resolution. Final output resolution is in this application still 8 bit.

If some scope have true HighRes it need also in this mode more wide data. Example in Rigol Z there is not available 12 bit data out from HighRes mode as far as I know. So thios 12 bit high resolution is more for advertisements. But, also it filters noise out. Eres and "boxcar" HighRes have bit different advantages and disadvantages.

But, example, some my old Tektronix use in normal mode 8bit bytes and for highres mode double4 bytes in memory for 16 bit data width.

If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 
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Offline Old Printer

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #349 on: November 27, 2017, 02:23:38 pm »
Well, it's 9am eastern time usa on the 27th. So far the earth has not moved, at least here in south Florida. Pretty quiet out there..so far. :) 
 


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