Author Topic: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes  (Read 180552 times)

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Offline Giuss

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #400 on: December 01, 2017, 12:30:39 pm »
a very nice thing keysight 3000x can do compared to scopes in simillar and lower class is that it can decode CAN and apply a dbc file to the decoded data (so ID 0xABCD will read as "Engine ECU #1" for example)
can this siglent or any siglent do that? makes it a lot easier to interpret data before going to a canbus analyzer... (if none can, please appropriate people, take note..)

by the way i was looking at simone's video



liking what i'm seeing so far..
It'd be nice to look at some high speed SPI and see how good/bad is it when reducing the timebase. I'd be happy to test it myself or bring a board to test but i have no reason to come to bologna before the new year, i'm busy all weekends... (well i'll probably be there at new year's but no work, all play :) )

I'd like to see a similar video for the 1104 with a 100mhz input signal and also a video with SPI decoding
 

Offline epongenoir

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #401 on: December 01, 2017, 02:10:37 pm »
I'll probably test SPI this evening, mine arrived yesterday (sds1104x-e)
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #402 on: December 01, 2017, 02:21:28 pm »
a very nice thing keysight 3000x can do compared to scopes in simillar and lower class is that it can decode CAN and apply a dbc file to the decoded data (so ID 0xABCD will read as "Engine ECU #1" for example)
can this siglent or any siglent do that? makes it a lot easier to interpret data before going to a canbus analyzer... (if none can, please appropriate people, take note..)

by the way i was looking at simone's video



liking what i'm seeing so far..
It'd be nice to look at some high speed SPI and see how good/bad is it when reducing the timebase. I'd be happy to test it myself or bring a board to test but i have no reason to come to bologna before the new year, i'm busy all weekends... (well i'll probably be there at new year's but no work, all play :) )

I'd like to see a similar video for the 1104 with a 100mhz input signal and also a video with SPI decoding

All functions and other things are indentical between SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E.  All is similar. All works similar.
There is one - just exactly one - difference. Analog front end before AD converters analog frequency bandwidth is different. Every other things are equal exactly.  Difference can see in risetime  what is just same as frequency response. Other thing is that 200MHz have bit more natural noise due to more wide BW. With SPI decoding you can not see any difference between these models until  exept if signal is so fast that frequency BW come important.
100MHz model may be even better than 200MHz model because Nyquist if use it so that sampling speed is 500MSa/s.  200MHz is just 1.25 x fNyquist what is barely enough IF signal is pure sine wave and very good quality Sin(x)/x filtering is in use. If signal have some frequency components what goes over 250MHz it produce aliasing, also barely over 200MHz start show some bad effects due to facxt that Sinc interpolation (filter) is done using only small amount of data. 
Because BW response shape is gaussian type, also too near Nyquist and over Nyquist limit frequency components can go to ADC and produce aliasing and bit under Nyquist also start example level wobbling and or corners wobbling if pulse type wave have these too high harmonics components.

100MHz model -3dB BW response corner is around 110MHz (in my measurement with single individual unit) and signal is highly attenuated well below f Nyquist. Also it looks like BW shape is more steep over 100MHz than what is example in  some previous models. And this is good thing - even when some peoples (mostly noobs) "admire" higher bandwidths in slow speed sampling real time oscilloscopes. (way or other repetitive sampling is different case)

One wink for modifiers and hackers. Make your scope better - reduce BW enough low (related to f Nyquist) and make BW shape after corner frequency for more steep decay.   Most reliable and quality works can do with max flat and brickwall shape BW. Even if it bit reduce rise times. 
200MHz model is barely ok but really in "border line" if more than 2 channels is in use and only if 200MHz signal is enough near  sine wave.     
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 02:28:58 pm by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Online TK

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #403 on: December 01, 2017, 03:23:35 pm »
There is one - just exactly one - difference. Analog front end before AD converters analog frequency bandwidth is different. Every other things are equal exactly. 
It means no software hack from 100MHz to 200MHz model :(
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #404 on: December 01, 2017, 03:36:40 pm »
It means no software hack from 100MHz to 200MHz model :(
I did not say that.

Who knows how analog front end BW is adjusted ;)







If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Online TK

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #405 on: December 01, 2017, 03:47:29 pm »
It means no software hack from 100MHz to 200MHz model :(
I did not say that.

Who knows how analog front end BW is adjusted ;)
Then at the component level they are the same
 

Offline IAmBack

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #406 on: December 01, 2017, 03:50:40 pm »
And what about probe compensation issue (known from 2ch model)? Is it "available" in 4ch models?
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #407 on: December 01, 2017, 05:06:21 pm »
And what about probe compensation issue (known from 2ch model)? Is it "available" in 4ch models?

Not available. Also not available in new 2 channel models out from factory. (no missing capacitor anymore. Why it was missing from its original designed place, "who knows".)
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #408 on: December 01, 2017, 08:50:10 pm »
And what about probe compensation issue (known from 2ch model)? Is it "available" in 4ch models?
Not available. Also not available in new 2 channel models out from factory. (no missing capacitor anymore)

That's very comforting.

(Gee, I hope they remembered all the other ones...have you checked?)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 08:58:44 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #409 on: December 01, 2017, 09:11:19 pm »
And what about probe compensation issue (known from 2ch model)? Is it "available" in 4ch models?
Not available. Also not available in new 2 channel models out from factory. (no missing capacitor anymore. Why it was missing from its original designed place, "who knows".)
The reason is obvious: even China suffers from the plague called bean counters or worse: some good old Muntzing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntzing ! Or let's move over to a bed time story from Bob Pease: http://www.electronicdesign.com/boards/whats-all-muntzing-stuff-anyhow
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 09:13:51 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline maddin

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #410 on: December 01, 2017, 10:46:41 pm »
Standard delivery:
- oscilloscope
- 4 passive probes
- power cable
- usb cable
- certificate

No printed manual in the standard delivery ?
I know that i can download it from Siglent homepage, but sometimes i would prefer real paper instead reading on monitor. 
 
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Offline hexpope

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #411 on: December 01, 2017, 10:48:15 pm »
I was thinking this myself yesterday when I saw the photo posted.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #412 on: December 01, 2017, 11:52:33 pm »
On new to market products we have occasionally received them without manuals but following shipment always have them.
It's only the Quick Start, a real condensed user manual that for an experienced scope user is usually ignored anyway.
The full manual is on the CD along with the programming guide and any software that's applicable to the product.
All the docs are here:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-wd.aspx?id=5109&tid=1&T=2

Software here:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-gjjrj.aspx?id=5109&tid=1&T=2

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Offline nimish

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #413 on: December 02, 2017, 09:32:42 pm »
So, let me get it straight. $49 paid for WiFi adapter buys an adapter and a license key?
No, just the WiFi adapter/dongle at Siglent retail price.  :(

Quote
On top of that, one needs to buy a software for $69 (prices taken from Saelig site)? Somewhat steep.
You just need buy the SW (license key) IF you can source the dongle cheaper elsewhere.

But not all will need WiFi connectivity as the LAN port accomplishes the same functionality.
I found it there was no advantage IF you had access to a wired LAN.

As time passes other WiFi dongles will be tried and a list of 'working' ones made.
The silver (not gold) version of TL-WN725N may work fine too, we just don't know yet.

For quick and easy small size (Kb's) screenshots, a USB stick is still the most convenient.

Now THIS is nickel and diming -- it's not like siglent is developing a wifi driver, they're just gonna use the same kernel module that red pitaya or anyone else who buys a Zynq would get in the BSP.

I can understand charging for the logic analyzer and the AWG but for wifi it's a bit much. Hopefully the firmware can be hacked to enable wifi regardless.
 
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Offline hexpope

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #414 on: December 02, 2017, 09:38:05 pm »
Quote
Now THIS is nickel and diming -- it's not like siglent is developing a wifi driver, they're just gonna use the same kernel module that red pitaya or anyone else who buys a Zynq would get in the BSP.

I can understand charging for the logic analyzer and the AWG but for wifi it's a bit much. Hopefully the firmware can be hacked to enable wifi regardless.

I bought the 100mhz version. So it will be interesting to see if this indeed can be hacked up to 200mhz and other options.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #415 on: December 04, 2017, 07:46:07 am »
Can someone please do a real test on the decoder functionality in the oscilloscope?
Some basic/simple SPI decoding screenshots FYI

Protocol source = Siglents STB3
http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-fjxx.aspx?fjid=4990&id=5109&tid=1&T=2
Only MOSI channel available.

Settings
Ch3 ~CS, Falling edge trigger
Ch2 Clk
C1 MOSI Data

Standard supplied probes used.
Various menus shown or hidden.









So let's now sloooow the timebase down and use its Zoom and turn the event table ON.
Note scroll bar position and event #.....and that's 50% through the list.


Menu hidden

« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 07:48:53 am by tautech »
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #416 on: December 04, 2017, 08:35:57 am »
Self explanating




Edit:

Correction - clarify.
Bode plot is standard function but it is not usable without external compatible "optional" generator.
Oscilloscope do not have internal signal generator.
So it do nothing if user do not have compatible generator (exept it tell that failed to connect to AWG).
Function generator can be also some other compatible Siglent AWG than just SDS1000X-E Option SAG1021.

Example if user have SDG1032X (this I have tested) it works and no need oscilloscope AWG control licence option SDS1000X-E-FG.
Just connect cables and run Bode Plot. Signal generator works under full control of oscilloscope bode plot function. No need touch SDG front panel at all. Same for other compatible Siglent generators.


Shortly:
Out from box, oscilloscope itself have Bode plot function what is standard function. It is not usable without external generator.
Using Bode Plot need external optional AWG. It can be SDS1000X-E Option SAG1021 or what ever other but compatible Siglent AWG.


edit:corrected some errors in compare table
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 05:13:30 pm by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 
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Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #417 on: December 04, 2017, 08:57:03 am »
Self explanating

Bode plot (optional)
Are you sure ?
No mention of this in the datasheet or manual if a standalone Siglent AWG is used for Bode plots.
Some previous discussion in post #385

The SAG1021 USB AWG is indeed optional and this too can be used for the Bode plot signal source.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 08:59:47 am by tautech »
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Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #418 on: December 04, 2017, 08:58:39 am »
Bode Plot is not optional, it is standard, press utility button and you find it
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #419 on: December 04, 2017, 09:06:18 am »
Bode Plot is not optional, it is standard, press utility button and you find it
I assume you're going to need a signal generator, right? Whether it's the optional unit or another discrete device.
 

Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #420 on: December 04, 2017, 09:08:52 am »
Yes correct, SAG1020 or other Siglent generators
from the user manual:
The bode plot application for the SDS1000X-E (only 4 channels scope supports this application) controls a external arbitrary waveform generator(AWG, only the Siglent’s arbitrary waveform generator can be supported ) to sweep a sine wave across a range of frequencies while measuring the input to and output from a device under test (DUT). At each frequency, gain and phase are measured and plotted on a Bode chart.
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #421 on: December 04, 2017, 09:28:50 am »
Yes correct, SAG1020 or other Siglent generators
from the user manual:
The bode plot application for the SDS1000X-E (only 4 channels scope supports this application) controls a external arbitrary waveform generator(AWG, only the Siglent’s arbitrary waveform generator can be supported ) to sweep a sine wave across a range of frequencies while measuring the input to and output from a device under test (DUT). At each frequency, gain and phase are measured and plotted on a Bode chart.
Considering the hardware required for a bode plot is optional, it's not unreasonable to say bode plots are therefore optional :)
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #422 on: December 04, 2017, 11:50:50 am »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #423 on: December 04, 2017, 07:56:35 pm »
Here is simple BodePlot (and really poor messy hand woven RC) in bit noisy environment and perhaps poor setup BodePlot settings.
It have three different resolution (steps), low, middle and high. 21, 101 and 501 points. In image 501 points in use.

Generator is SDG1032X

Just connect USB and BodePlot function automatically do all setups for SDG. No need touch SDG  at all (exept cables and power on)

Also example external load impedance is adjustable between 50, 75, 600ohm and Hi-Z.










Last image is just totally only playing like kid for show that there can also set more DUT outputs.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 08:14:49 pm by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #424 on: December 04, 2017, 08:03:36 pm »
Here is simple BodePlot (and really poor messy hand woven RC) in bit noisy environment and perhaps poor setup BodePlot settings.
It have three different resolution (steps), low, middle and high. 21, 101 and 501 points. In image 501 points in use.

Generator is SDG1032X

Just connect USB and BodePlot function automatically do all setups for SDG. No need touch SDG  at all (exept cables and power on)




I found performance could be improved (speed) by reassigning Bode plot channels to use both ADC's instead of using default Bode plot channels 1 and 2.  ;)
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