Author Topic: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes  (Read 180585 times)

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Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #600 on: March 09, 2018, 12:03:30 am »
The ones I most prefer are old style Tek grabbers like these in this listing:
https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Tektronix-Adapter-Mini-Test-Grabber-40V/272670551628?hash=item3f7c6e6e4c:g:YsEAAOSw42dZF6bp
They are just so easy to use.

To each his own  8)

May be the original Tektronix grabbers are really so much better, I don't know since I have a replica but this is how it works for me:
Here's a better pic of just one:
https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Tektronix-SMT-KlipChip-Adapter-Test-Clip-Mini-Grabber-206-0364-01-with-Accessory/222294004524?hash=item33c1c1532c:g:s1cAAOSwHsRYEFBB

What do yours measure on the finest/thinest part of the shank ?
The Teks are 1.25mm.
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Offline 17_29bis

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #601 on: March 11, 2018, 01:02:35 am »
What do yours measure on the finest/thinest part of the shank ?
The Teks are 1.25mm.

My replica of Tektronix  is roughly 1.6 mm which is also not bad but I mostly use EZ-Hooks:

 

Offline Performa01

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #602 on: March 11, 2018, 01:07:03 am »
A brief introduction to the SLA/SPL1016 hardware and a comparison of the supplied noname hooks with the E-Z Hooks that come with the SPL2016 for SDS2000(X) can be found here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1449168/#msg1449168

 

Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #603 on: March 13, 2018, 07:54:37 am »
Some MSO screenshots.
SDS1104X-E with SLA1016 MSO option
Signal source Siglent STB-3.





Data from D0 and D1.
D7 set as control channel (red).
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 07:57:36 am by tautech »
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Offline Bob Sava

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #604 on: March 14, 2018, 07:42:13 pm »
What is the sample rate of SLA1016?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 09:01:04 pm by Bob Sava »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #605 on: March 14, 2018, 10:34:59 pm »
What is the sample rate of SLA1016?
Going by the datasheet: Digital Channels: Max. Sampling Rate 1 GSa/s

How that's managed is a good question as there' 2x 1Gsa/s ADC's on board Siglent may have assigned 8 LA channels to each ADC. That would seem logical considering the SDS1004X-E architecture.

On the other hand sampling might be handled in the SLA1016 LA pod.
Teardown Performa01 ?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 10:52:07 pm by tautech »
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #606 on: March 15, 2018, 04:31:20 am »
What is the sample rate of SLA1016?
Going by the datasheet: Digital Channels: Max. Sampling Rate 1 GSa/s

How that's managed is a good question as there' 2x 1Gsa/s ADC's on board Siglent may have assigned 8 LA channels to each ADC. That would seem logical considering the SDS1004X-E architecture.

On the other hand sampling might be handled in the SLA1016 LA pod.
Teardown Performa01 ?

2 main ADC's do not LA sampling. They handle analog channels only.

1 LA channel level information is just one bit. 0 or 1. Comparator is enough for this.  There are 16 comparators in SPL1016 head.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 05:18:23 am by rf-loop »
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Offline Bob Sava

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #607 on: March 15, 2018, 03:08:20 pm »
This video from Siglent themselves (published March 2nd) shows unresponsive controls when logic analyzer is running.  @2:58, notice how much knob has to be turned to scroll through the menu options and delay between input and actual move.  Also, that channel selection menu must be at least 20 items long (4 analog+16 digital) - that means lots and lots of turning frustration.

One of the advantages of new Siglent as compared to Rigol is speed.  This video makes me wonder what other GUI places are as unresponsive or badly optimized.

https://youtu.be/2q-aRCLELkk?t=2m58s

« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 03:12:06 pm by Bob Sava »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #608 on: March 15, 2018, 07:30:32 pm »
Bob, the momentary pauses in the display updates are due to the settings being changed with the multifunction control. Each little step of info from the encoder initiates a momentary pause as the DSO changes its internal configuration.
Normal for these models.

What Jason didn't explain about the MSO licensing and in fact for all the available options is that from new trial licensing is active for a 30 use/s duration before permanent licensing need be purchased for unlimited use.
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Offline 17_29bis

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #609 on: March 17, 2018, 06:05:55 am »
Hello,

I think I found a bug in the newest firmware (1204X-E). When the trigger is set to AC coupling, the change of the trigger level does not show on the screen the horizontal line reflecting the actual trigger level (but it works fine for 3 other types such as  DC etc. Can someone verify that and confirm my observation?

Thanks.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #610 on: March 17, 2018, 06:34:53 am »
Hello,

I think I found a bug in the newest firmware (1204X-E). When the trigger is set to AC coupling, the change of the trigger level does not show on the screen the horizontal line reflecting the actual trigger level (but it works fine for 3 other types such as  DC etc. Can someone verify that and confirm my observation?

Thanks.
Your observation is accurate but it is NOT a bug. Instead Siglent chose not to display the trigger level when using AC input coupling as it's always @ 50% when AC coupled.
IIRC Performa01 mentions this in his in depth review.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/
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Offline 17_29bis

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #611 on: March 17, 2018, 06:48:31 am »
Your observation is accurate but it is NOT a bug. Instead Siglent chose not to display the trigger level when using AC input coupling as it's always @ 50% when AC coupled.

I don't know what Siglent has chosen, I don't know if the result may depend on the firmware version etc but I still would appreciate if someone verified that for me.
The problem with your statement is that when one chooses AC coupling and changes the trigger level he can clearly see how the trig. level is changing (right top corner of the screen shows the current trig. level), plus if the trig. level is incorrect then the displayed waveform is not  synchronized.  Do I misunderstand something?
 

Offline Performa01

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #612 on: March 17, 2018, 07:05:52 am »
Yes, the missing AC trigger level indicator is mentioned in the review documents (chapter "AC Trigger Coupling", page 71) and in the thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1375999/#msg1375999
and
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1384751/#msg1384751

Btw the review text is currently misleading as it states:

The trigger level is set to zero which is actually always equivalent to the mean level of a symmetrical input signal.

We can still adjust the trigger level to any arbitrary value, so the above statement is only true for automatic level setting and it should read:

When using Auto Set by pushing the trigger level control, the trigger level is set to zero which is equivalent to the mean level of a symmetrical input signal.

In short: Siglent currently don't give us an AC (and LF Reject, which is basically just AC with a much higher corner frequency) trigger level indicator despite I've mentioned it several times since it has disappeared a long time ago.

Apart from that I have an open change request for adjusting the auto set trigger level to the center of the waveform (Vmax + Vmin) / 2 - Vmean instead of setting it to zero. This way the AC auto trigger would also work for narrow pulses.
 
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #613 on: March 19, 2018, 11:29:41 am »


Apart from that I have an open change request for adjusting the auto set trigger level to the center of the waveform (Vmax + Vmin) / 2 - Vmean instead of setting it to zero. This way the AC auto trigger would also work for narrow pulses.

This is good. But also then we need ask: How long time auto trigger is waiting this narrow pulse or what ever before it do autotrig. When it goes to autotrig then there exist this signal, example pulse, at this first time this pulse can be also visible in this capture waht is trigged auto. Then do not come this pulse long time and it generate trig by auto. Then this pulse exisat and again it is where it is  visible or unvisible. Say example we are 1ms/div and there exists some times 100ns pulses, some times pulse periord is 5 second and some times 20ms.  How to arrence auto trig timing (example waiting trig time after previous signal trigged capture)

If user push autoset trig level, how long it wait for solve right level?  Say example just case where randomly/perhaps slowly exist some narrow pulses. I have heard that peoples are ranting if autoset (what ever autoset) take too long time.

Compromises are nice and things what scope adjust himself are also nice but...

Perhaps I'm bit strage but I want that most things are under user control. I have never difficulties with trigger level setting my self. It is extremely rare case - more like accidental - if I push some "auto" set because it never know what I my self really want... User is master and scope is slave and do just what I command. If scope start do things over me it may find himself under table.
But, we do not have scope where is one big settings menu where I can set all or lot of parameters just as I want. (just example autotrig timing is one example)

I want scope what I can set (define), starting from trace colors (free selection for every color on the screen. Set positions for overlay informations as mesurements and marker information, change markers colors, change Sinc parameters, Change measurements parameters (example rise time tresholds) and how it dfetects top and bottom, force capture length overlap amount and force memory length, freehand draw mask test and even small mask free positioning on the screen area.. test mask X or Y scaling both no or yes.  Trigger hysteresis setting.  Just as fully user configurable scope.  And then if user need due to example low experience or other reasons... these normal autoset and set for factory defined compromice/default.

Example very old one (real)Hewlett-Packard digital scope have lot of user settings configurations. (and if adjusted then next user perhaps more than confused ;) ) But when user was familiar with these settings - it was pleasure to use.

Also there was one R&S SA (old and one important parameter, weight around 50kg?)
It was nice to use because I can set (and full free color space, not as select from some factory made stupid "skins") traces, graticule and some other things color harmony with other equipments and best for my eyes and taste.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline Performa01

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #614 on: March 19, 2018, 12:43:09 pm »
@ rf-loop

I agree that the experts want everything configurable to make it best fit the current application. On the other hand, this will most likely confuse less experienced users and newbies might be unable to cope. Of course we could have some big “Default” button, but the mere existence of such a bunch of options would scare away quite a few. So it’s probably a good idea not going too far on an entry level scope – but we might convince Siglent to implement some of your configuration proposals for a higher level scope, like the SDS5kX.

Regarding the trigger level and its Auto Set feature, I do not see any problem. It just should work the same in DC and AC trigger coupling mode. Auto set does not wait how the signal might develop eventually, it just uses what has recently been captured and is already in the sample buffer. No one can expect the auto trigger level set function to foresee the future, so if there is currently just a straight line then that’s what the trigger level will be set to – just as it is now with DC-coupling.

I also don’t see the problem that we would not be the master of the scene (and scope) anymore. If there is a signal that is not properly (or not at all) triggered just because the trigger level is off, then even when I know what it should be set to it’s still quicker to just push the trigger level button to have it centered on the peak-peak amplitude of the waveform– which might not even be visible initially, because it just exists in the sample buffer but is not displayed because the trigger has never fired.

After that, I have a good basis to further tweak the trigger level if required.

I have never felt the need to closely inspect the Auto trigger mode (not to confuse with Auto set for the trigger level!), as I always had the feeling the timeout (= auto trigger rate) is just about right with regard to the current timebase. But then again, I prefer normal trigger mode in most situations, because then I can be absolutely sure that every waveform I see on the screen comes from a true trigger event, no matter what weird repetition rate it might have. This also means that a singular event stays on the screen forever in normal mode, whereas it would get cleared after a short time in auto mode.

Btw, I’m not telling these truisms because I think you’re not aware of it, but it might include some hints for less experienced users who happen to read this.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #615 on: March 19, 2018, 01:21:39 pm »
But then again, I prefer normal trigger mode in most situations, because then I can be absolutely sure that every waveform I see on the screen comes from a true trigger event, no matter what weird repetition rate it might have. This also means that a singular event stays on the screen forever in normal mode, whereas it would get cleared after a short time in auto mode.

Same here. But as we both know, this can not set for factory default mode. ;)

But about auto trig timing. When this "Auto" mode is selected I have some times meet situation (yes - even when I use lot of normal mode) when I want that it wait bit longer after last signal trig event before it start generate auto trigs. But never meet situation (With this scope model) where I want more fast autorig after last signal trig.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline Gabri74

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #616 on: March 20, 2018, 05:47:44 pm »
After finally spending some time using this scope, I'd like to point out some minor bugs/annoyances I've found. Maybe someone can forward this suggestions to Siglent  :-+

1. In the SPI decoder after disabling the MISO or MOSI signal decoding, the label and the signal trace are still visible near the active one (but obviously without events)
2. It is not possible to move the decoding trace, it's fixed at the bottom of the screen
3. When using the decoders and zooming out too much, the decoded bytes are substituted with red markings because there is not enough space to display the values. Maybe using a vertical layout for the bytes in hex format (like R&S does) will give us another couple of zoom levels with readable decoding
4. In the measure menu there are non options to count impulses/events (I miss my 'Pluses' counter  :-DD )
5. It will be great to have the option to move the cursors data mini window in another place
6. The display is too recessed into the case and having the scope placed on the bench and being tall I've always to bow to read the first row with the sampling data and the trigger frequency. But nothing that a couple of printed rises can't fix

I've to say that overall I'm really impressed by the quality and snappiness of this machine for the price.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #617 on: March 21, 2018, 07:18:11 am »
After finally spending some time using this scope, I'd like to point out some minor bugs/annoyances I've found. Maybe someone can forward this suggestions to Siglent  :-+

1. In the SPI decoder after disabling the MISO or MOSI signal decoding, the label and the signal trace are still visible near the active one (but obviously without events)
2. It is not possible to move the decoding trace, it's fixed at the bottom of the screen
3. When using the decoders and zooming out too much, the decoded bytes are substituted with red markings because there is not enough space to display the values. Maybe using a vertical layout for the bytes in hex format (like R&S does) will give us another couple of zoom levels with readable decoding
4. In the measure menu there are non options to count impulses/events (I miss my 'Pluses' counter  :-DD )
5. It will be great to have the option to move the cursors data mini window in another place
6. The display is too recessed into the case and having the scope placed on the bench and being tall I've always to bow to read the first row with the sampling data and the trigger frequency. But nothing that a couple of printed rises can't fix

I've to say that overall I'm really impressed by the quality and snappiness of this machine for the price.
Firmware version please ?

1. Seen this before in another unit.....and only one ! Been reported and not seen in SDS1004X-E models.
2. Only down to the vacant menu bar after selecting 'Menu' ON/OFF. (by Power button)
3. Here's a screenshot of typical decode usage and when activating Zoom and List more data is more easily accessible. (Menu OFF)



4. This can be done using Search function by setting the parameters required then the Event #'s are displayed on the bottom right of the display. #'s displayed are related to timebase settings of course.
Example from a previous post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717


Check the spelling !  ;)

5. Of course you can use the H position to move waveform detail away from cursor box or adjust the display transparency.
6. Are you using the front tilting feet ? As the rear feet are rubberized, maybe some additional packing under the front feet to tilt it back a little more.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 07:34:06 am by tautech »
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Offline Gabri74

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #618 on: March 21, 2018, 09:56:27 am »
Thanks for your reply.

Quote
Firmware version please ?
Updated to the latest: 7.6.1.20R1

1. Attached screenshot
2. Thanks for the tip, better than nothing  :)
3. I was thinking about something like this: https://youtu.be/UTsbYqhZiSg?t=13m48s
4. I know, but is a little bit cumbersome to have it count events in realtime due to a bug/limitation I just discoverd:
    a. push Search, setup search parameters
    b. Push navigate, BUG: cant' select Search Event in the Type menu when in Run mode
    c. Push Run/Stop to stop acquisition
    d. Now you can select Search Event in the Type menu
    e. Push Run/Stop to restart acquisition
    f. Only now events count is shown in the Event Num button in Run mode
5. Agreed
6. Yes, I'm using the front tilting foots but they are not high enough for me :)  But this is really a minor problem, I shouldn't have mentioned it and that can be easily fixed using a couple of laptop rubber rises or by printing them myself (which I'll do as soon as I've time)
 
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #619 on: March 21, 2018, 10:39:14 am »
Bit more than just Rigol "Pluses"

Of course it also need user learn how to use it because and of course first it may feel "why this and why that"

This is extremely simple example.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline Gabri74

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #620 on: March 21, 2018, 11:33:36 am »
Of course it also need user learn how to use it because and of course first it may feel "why this and why that"

Not my fault this time :) and thanks to your screenshot showing the Event Num label which I've never seen I understood the problem:
when the decoding option is on, the Event Num label is hidden behind the decoded traces (see screen1)!
That's why I missed it in the first time and went with that complicate procedure  :-DD
When hiding the menu bottom bar (as suggested by Tautech) the Event Num label is visible again (see screen2)
 
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Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #621 on: March 21, 2018, 11:53:50 am »
Gabri74
Mosi, Miso, is this in Decode1 or 2 mode ?

General decode comments.
Using Zoom in my previously attached screenshot has 60 packets of decoded data (unzoomed) and a wealth of further info in the list.
Selecting Scroll in the Decode menus sets the Multifunction knob to the middle message in the stream where you can access all the info for each packet.

Event Num label and Decode = bug. Thanks.
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Offline Performa01

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #622 on: March 21, 2018, 11:55:43 am »
After finally spending some time using this scope, I'd like to point out some minor bugs/annoyances I've found. Maybe someone can forward this suggestions to Siglent  :-+

Of course I will point Siglent R&D to your posting. You’ve already got some replies from experienced users and I want to add my comments to that:


Quote
1.   In the SPI decoder after disabling the MISO or MOSI signal decoding, the label and the signal trace are still visible near the active one (but obviously without events)

Yes. For other decoders, like UART, it is not even possible to disable one direction at all. I have mentioned that a long time ago, but nothing has changed and I did not pick that topic up again because I felt this was more a question of personal preference and there were so many much more important things to be sorted.


Quote
2.   It is not possible to move the decoding trace, it's fixed at the bottom of the screen

I see your point, but the UI is generally not based on freely movable windows as in modern mid-range DSOs. So the layout is fixed and nothing can be re-positioned. It would require a major re-design and I’m not sure if Siglent is willing to do that. It means so much more than just adding the functionality. You need a user interface for customizing the user interface, including additional menu items, help texts and error messages, which need to be in a bunch of different languages. And then there’s always the concern that long time users already familiar with the current UI might be confused if something behaves very differently all of a sudden, just because they pushed the wrong button at the wrong time by accident.
Maybe an entry level scope is not the best product to start experimenting with a highly flexible new UI concept…


Quote
3.   When using the decoders and zooming out too much, the decoded bytes are substituted with red markings because there is not enough space to display the values. Maybe using a vertical layout for the bytes in hex format (like R&S does) will give us another couple of zoom levels with readable decoding

Well, this goes hand in hand with some of your other requests. If the decoded values have a vertical orientation, the decoder lines use more vertical space too, which would only be a good idea if we also get the movable UI display elements as discussed before.


Quote
4.   In the measure menu there are non options to count impulses/events (I miss my 'Pluses' counter   )

Yes, even though the Event Search can be pretty powerful, I would most definitely like to have an automatic measurement function at least for counting edges.


Quote
5.   It will be great to have the option to move the cursors data mini window in another place

See #2.


Quote
6.   The display is too recessed into the case and having the scope placed on the bench and being tall I've always to bow to read the first row with the sampling data and the trigger frequency. But nothing that a couple of printed rises can't fix

Yes, I know that problem. It is similar if you place the scope somewhere above your head on a shelf, then you can’t see the bottom of the screen. But that’s manageable one way or the other … ;)

 
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Offline Gabri74

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #623 on: March 21, 2018, 12:05:50 pm »
Gabri74
Mosi, Miso, is this in Decode1 or 2 mode ?

Decode 1. Tested Decode 2 and is the same.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #624 on: March 21, 2018, 12:14:44 pm »
Gabri74
Mosi, Miso, is this in Decode1 or 2 mode ?

Decode 1. Tested Decode 2 and is the same.
I think it's this way by design and BTW my first reply was about something different.
We'll look at it some more.......
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 


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