Author Topic: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes  (Read 183583 times)

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Offline firstcolle

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #800 on: June 20, 2018, 07:44:00 am »
So it is possible to hack an SDS1104X-E to be a SDS1204X-E.

You need to patch the OS update so that the root password is known -- another member of eevblog has done this (check over in the ADS file format thread - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/125/ )

telnet to the scope, and log in as root. And execute the following commands and then power cycle the scope;

mount -o remount,rw ubi2_0 /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
cd /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
mv bandwidth.txt bandwidth.bak

so with these simple steps, the SDS-1104x-e will turn into an SDS-1204x-e at full effect? or is only a matter of model name in the system info?
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #801 on: June 20, 2018, 08:03:35 am »
So it is possible to hack an SDS1104X-E to be a SDS1204X-E.

You need to patch the OS update so that the root password is known -- another member of eevblog has done this (check over in the ADS file format thread - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/125/ )

telnet to the scope, and log in as root. And execute the following commands and then power cycle the scope;

mount -o remount,rw ubi2_0 /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
cd /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
mv bandwidth.txt bandwidth.bak

so with these simple steps, the SDS-1104x-e will turn into an SDS-1204x-e at full effect? or is only a matter of model name in the system info?

Just in some previous messages there was tests about BW and risetime etc.
And bit earlier there was also other member (Performa01) made BW test using SDS1104X-E as it is after factory. If you can not spot/guess what are these other tests... if you read this whole thread and tests etc.. I do not think it is difficult to deduce/extrapolate what are these last results.  :-/O ;)

(and perhaps best, for the moment, also jump over Reply #792 where exist strongly suspicious claim - until @tmbinc show enough evidences)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 08:25:50 am by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline firstcolle

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #802 on: June 20, 2018, 08:08:18 am »
So it is possible to hack an SDS1104X-E to be a SDS1204X-E.

You need to patch the OS update so that the root password is known -- another member of eevblog has done this (check over in the ADS file format thread - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/125/ )

telnet to the scope, and log in as root. And execute the following commands and then power cycle the scope;

mount -o remount,rw ubi2_0 /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
cd /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
mv bandwidth.txt bandwidth.bak

so with these simple steps, the SDS-1104x-e will turn into an SDS-1204x-e at full effect? or is only a matter of model name in the system info?

Just in some previous messages there was tests about BW and risetime etc.
And bit earlier there was also other member (Performa01) made BW test using SDS1104X-E as it is after factory. If you can not spot/guess what are these other tests... if you read this whole thread and tests etc.. I do not think it is difficult to deduce/extrapolate what are these last results.  :-/O ;)

I just come back from holidays and I have much to read on the forum... I want to be sure not miss something.  ;D ;D
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #803 on: June 20, 2018, 12:17:49 pm »
Looking at Performa01's review of the probes that come with the 1104 vs the 1204, the charts and graphs provided seem to show that they have similar 3dB points and rise times, but the PP215s have a much wider 1dB BW.   

Does it make sense to spend the hundred bucks and bump up to the PP215's from the PP510's?
At $27ea maybe, depending on the absolute accuracy you require. But for 4 probes, nah as you'd be very unlikely to need all 4 channels that precisely accurate. Maybe get one or two if you feel you really need to.

The list for PP510 (100 MHz probe) is only $10ea so $40total vs $108 for the full 200 MHz PP215 set.
So with the hack you've already saved $259 so to add a set of PP215's too that saving drops to $151.  :-/O
Something to consider.  :)
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #804 on: June 20, 2018, 05:06:51 pm »
The 20MHz limit is switched in the frontend, but the frontend is not switched for 100 MHz vs. 200 MHz.


Can you prove that this is a fact. Where are evidences?
Have you analyzed 4 channel models analog front end signal pathway from AD8370 to ADA4932?

This is reason why I suspect and ask

Sorry phone image quality... but it perhaps still give some hint...
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 05:10:31 pm by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline Gregg

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #805 on: June 20, 2018, 05:15:28 pm »
I just received my brand new SDS1204X-E and noticed it was warm when plugged in but not turned on. It is drawing 4.7 watts doing nothing.  Maybe Siglent should include a power switch on the side or back to turn it off completely.   
 

Offline Bob Sava

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #806 on: June 20, 2018, 05:34:05 pm »
I just received my brand new SDS1204X-E and noticed it was warm when plugged in but not turned on. It is drawing 4.7 watts doing nothing.  Maybe Siglent should include a power switch on the side or back to turn it off completely.   

I agree, it's a waste.  This is what I use:



 
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Online BillB

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #807 on: June 20, 2018, 06:01:22 pm »
I just received my brand new SDS1204X-E and noticed it was warm when plugged in but not turned on. It is drawing 4.7 watts doing nothing.  Maybe Siglent should include a power switch on the side or back to turn it off completely.   

Immediately I mutter to myself in my best Australian accent: "4.7 Watts!?  You could go to the moon with 4.7 watts!"
 
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #808 on: June 22, 2018, 10:18:49 am »
Just for fun playing with one SDS1104X-E

Both images test signal and scope settings all same.
1GSa/s, FFT 0 - 500MHz, 10dB div,
Sweep from 5MHz to 500MHz. Source HP8642B, ~-5dBm -  30cm  Suhner RG223/U  -  Tektronix 50 ohm feed thru terminator.
(Later some words and tiny examples about over Nyquist aliasing specially with 500MSa/s and with wide analog BW).


Original


Experimental
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 10:21:26 am by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 
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Online BillB

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #809 on: June 22, 2018, 12:28:38 pm »
A couple of questions:

1) Is there any difference in operation of the SLA1016 between the 1104 and 1204?  From the data sheet, there doesn't seem to be, as the specs say 1 GSa/s, 14 Mpts/CH, and Min. Detectable Pulse Width 4 ns.

2) I haven't temporarily activated any options yet, and I do not see a <license> element in my NSP_system_info XML file.  I'm wondering if permanently activating the options might be done in a similar way as on the SSA3021X?  Has anyone tried this, yet?  I plan on taking a look at this tonight.

3) The User's Guide make some reference to being able to update the "Digital" software in a section entitled Digital System status and firmware upgrade on page 160.  Is this really the case that there is a separate, independent software upgrade for the MSO option?  Or is this software just part of the already included application software, or the SLA resident firmware, and the license key purchase for the MSO is just that, a license key only?

The reason I ask is that purchasing the SLA1016 seems much more attractive if I would be getting full performance at somewhat of a discount on cost.  :D
 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 12:50:32 pm by BillB »
 

Offline toli

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #810 on: June 22, 2018, 12:53:28 pm »
1. I don't think there is a difference, I own the SDS1204X-E + MSO option only though.
2. I don't know.
3. The MSO option has its own fw which is updated independently from a different menu and a different fw file. This file isn't "secret" you can download it just like the main fw. When you buy the license, you get a license only.

With all that being said, I would not recommend the MSO option, at least not at its current state. It suffers from several issues, some of which I've reported in this thread here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1611520/#msg1611520
At the current state, I think it makes no sense to get the MSO option, it just doesn't deliver what you'd expect an MSO would. If I were you, I'd first wait to see what solutions are given to the issues reported so far, and when these solution will be available. Its a shame there isn't any real world info on the MSO option online. I know that if I had known such issues exist I would have looked for a different scope completely, one where the MSO option works properly.
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Online BillB

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #811 on: June 22, 2018, 01:32:07 pm »
Thanks for the info, toli.  I actually saw your post and was going to ping you to see if there was a resolution yet to the problems you were seeing.  It seems Siglent has been pretty responsive so far in fixing some of the bugs relating to decoding in general, and from looking at the problems you describe, I would think that they should be able to fix those relatively quickly.

You said the MSO suffers from several issues; are there other bugs with the MSO option beyond what you've already described?

For me, seeing if I can even enable the permanent option is my first step, so I will be holding off on getting the SLA hardware for a little while.   
 

Offline toli

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #812 on: June 22, 2018, 01:44:36 pm »
I obviously share the hope that the MSO HW will be properly integrated with the scope in the near future.
At the moment the only thing that had changed over the week is thatI know Siglent have seen the text and video I have posted.
No solution is available yet, at least not that I'm aware of.

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Online tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #813 on: June 22, 2018, 01:47:34 pm »
1) Is there any difference in operation of the SLA1016 between the 1104 and 1204?  From the data sheet, there doesn't seem to be, as the specs say 1 GSa/s, 14 Mpts/CH, and Min. Detectable Pulse Width 4 ns.

There can't be any difference because the scope is exactly the same! Just some bytes difference...
 

Offline SMB784

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #814 on: June 22, 2018, 03:40:24 pm »
Just for fun playing with one SDS1104X-E

Both images test signal and scope settings all same.
1GSa/s, FFT 0 - 500MHz, 10dB div,
Sweep from 5MHz to 500MHz. Source HP8642B, ~-5dBm -  30cm  Suhner RG223/U  -  Tektronix 50 ohm feed thru terminator.
(Later some words and tiny examples about over Nyquist aliasing specially with 500MSa/s and with wide analog BW).


Original


Experimental

Assuming what I am looking at is a comparison between a pre-hack 1104X-E and a post-hack 1104X-E, this confirms that the hack does indeed extend the 3dB point of the bandwidth to 200 MHz.

It would appear that this hack is capable of extending the bandwidth of the scope from 100 MHz to 200 MHz.
"Anything will lase if you hit it hard enough."

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Offline Hydron

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #815 on: June 22, 2018, 04:02:22 pm »
It also looks like the attenuation beyond nyquist (250MHz for 3/4-channels enabled) in 200MHz mode is not really sufficient to stop aliasing of signals with significant >250MHz content. I would be interested to see what the waveforms look like with an input from something like Leo Bodnar's rise-time-tester is - this really plays havoc with the DS1054Z for example. I suspect that you'd need to be a bit careful with the 200MHz model when using more than 2 channels to look at stuff that might have higher-frequency components.

On this note, I really wish you could deliberately make use of the lower bandwidth options that are built into software-upgradable scopes (other than the standard 20MHz). The lower bandwidth limits are built in already for lower end models, but despite being useful for reducing noise and/or aliasing for inputs when full bandwidth isn't needed (but >20MHz is), this doesn't seem to be offered by many/any manufacturers (I've seen an extra 150MHz step above 20MHz on some Tek scopes, but not much more).

Until there is confirmation as to exactly what we're looking at it's hard to draw conclusions though - maybe rf-loop has been doing some hardware hacking too?
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #816 on: June 22, 2018, 05:30:39 pm »
It also looks like the attenuation beyond nyquist (250MHz for 3/4-channels enabled) in 200MHz mode is not really sufficient to stop aliasing of signals with significant >250MHz content.

Yes.  As I told previously "(Later some words and tiny examples about over Nyquist aliasing specially with 500MSa/s and with wide analog BW)."
It is always important that user understand what is aliasing and how to avoit falling this trap when use this kind of oscilloscopes - know fundamentals, know your equipment is more than important with all test and measurements instruments.


Until there is confirmation as to exactly what we're looking at it's hard to draw conclusions though - maybe rf-loop has been doing some hardware hacking too?

I can tell: Absolutely no any kind of hardware modification or adjusting or other kind of manipulation, not even any bamboo chopstick or paper clip trick.

In both FFT images oscilloscope is same individual unit. Same signal source, same cable, same terminator, same settings in signal gen and oscilloscope.
Exactly there is only one difference, and nothing else if we do not take into account that the place of the tests in time-space differs from one another and in this context also some other insignificant variables have changed bit.
This one and only meaningful difference can find exactly in Reply #785 in this thread.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline Performa01

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #817 on: June 22, 2018, 07:28:19 pm »
It also looks like the attenuation beyond nyquist (250MHz for 3/4-channels enabled) in 200MHz mode is not really sufficient to stop aliasing of signals with significant >250MHz content. I would be interested to see what the waveforms look like with an input from something like Leo Bodnar's rise-time-tester is - this really plays havoc with the DS1054Z for example. I suspect that you'd need to be a bit careful with the 200MHz model when using more than 2 channels to look at stuff that might have higher-frequency components.

That has been long done and can be found in the “SDS1000X-E Bandwidth” document attached to reply #1 here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371775/#msg1371775


On this note, I really wish you could deliberately make use of the lower bandwidth options that are built into software-upgradable scopes (other than the standard 20MHz). The lower bandwidth limits are built in already for lower end models, but despite being useful for reducing noise and/or aliasing for inputs when full bandwidth isn't needed (but >20MHz is), this doesn't seem to be offered by many/any manufacturers (I've seen an extra 150MHz step above 20MHz on some Tek scopes, but not much more).

From the document mentioned above, it should be clear that a bandwidth limit solely based on digital signal processing cannot prevent aliasing. Consequently, the only applications left for a bandwidth limit would be interference/noise suppression and for this a digital filter package is more useful anyway. Some scopes offer exactly that, even though for some reason it went out of fashion for low end scopes.

----------------------------
Here’s a comparison with the original 200MHz frontend in an SDS1202X-E. First at the same scale as shown in the images from rf-loop (but with a much lower frequency resolution that is perfectly adequate for the task):


SDS1202X-E_500MHz_50mV_FFT2

As can be seen, flatness up to some 175MHz is a little better, but very similar otherwise.

The same graph, but with a higher amplitude resolution of 2dB/div:


SDS1202X-E_500MHz_50mV_FFT2a
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 07:53:36 am by Performa01 »
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #818 on: June 22, 2018, 08:40:32 pm »
4 channel 1kX-E front end is not same as 2 channel 1kX-E. It can also see in previous photographs.

Also there need keep bit separate thinking with true frequency aliasing related to samplerate (Nyquist) and then with some "aliasing" looks like phenomenons. These last ones are bit difficult due to lack of deep details  about things happen in digital side.

And, of course only right place for BW reject is before ADC. There is nothing what can bet this analog side filter in this context.
If think SDS1204X-E it is of course very nice  if Siglent add also example 100MHz BW selection so that user can select 20 and 100 and full. (and without any exeption these of course need be analog side before ADC). 
Totally other thing is if then want also add some extra like adjustable DSP filters as example adjustable LPF, HPF and BPF.  For noise reduction there is already DSP filter: "ERES" LPF but as we know it drops wfm update speed dramatically what can use if trace average is not suitable with signal under test.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 09:03:17 pm by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #819 on: June 22, 2018, 08:58:21 pm »
A couple of questions:

1) Is there any difference in operation of the SLA1016 between the 1104 and 1204?  From the data sheet, there doesn't seem to be, as the specs say 1 GSa/s, 14 Mpts/CH, and Min. Detectable Pulse Width 4 ns.
No.

Quote
2) I haven't temporarily activated any options yet, and I do not see a <license> element in my NSP_system_info XML file.  I'm wondering if permanently activating the options might be done in a similar way as on the SSA3021X?  Has anyone tried this, yet?  I plan on taking a look at this tonight.
Don't know.

Quote
3) The User's Guide make some reference to being able to update the "Digital" software in a section entitled Digital System status and firmware upgrade on page 160.  Is this really the case that there is a separate, independent software upgrade for the MSO option?  Or is this software just part of the already included application software, or the SLA resident firmware, and the license key purchase for the MSO is just that, a license key only?
The SLA firmware is just that, firmware for the SLA module. The upgrade GUI and path are only available when the SLA module is connected. The FW is installed via the DSO's USB connection and through the S-Bus into the SLA module. All very straigt forward just like updating the DSO FW.

The reason I ask is that purchasing the SLA1016 seems much more attractive if I would be getting full performance at somewhat of a discount on cost.  :D
It's only if you need 4+ channels this might be attractive as there is more capability within the scope than the SLA.
More info and we can better advise if SLA is the right choice for you.
 
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Online BillB

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #820 on: June 22, 2018, 09:17:04 pm »
The SLA firmware is just that, firmware for the SLA module. The upgrade GUI and path are only available when the SLA module is connected. The FW is installed via the DSO's USB connection and through the S-Bus into the SLA module. All very straight forward just like updating the DSO FW.
Understood.  The manual page wasn't quite clear to me until now.

It's only if you need 4+ channels this might be attractive as there is more capability within the scope than the SLA.
More info and we can better advise if SLA is the right choice for you.
I don't need anything.  :)  I was thinking about picking up a decent logic analyzer, but didn't really want a PC-based USB one for my tiny workbench.  Having the MSO pod for the 1104 made sense, but that price+license cost is a bitter pill to swallow (or more like a suppository given the scope was only $499 itself)  Being able to just fork over the bucks for the pod and creatively acquiring the license by other means would make it more attractive to a cheapskate like myself.

I am a tad concerned about the issues that toli raised, but am hoping Siglent will address them in short order.   

 

Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #821 on: June 22, 2018, 09:38:16 pm »
The SLA firmware is just that, firmware for the SLA module. The upgrade GUI and path are only available when the SLA module is connected. The FW is installed via the DSO's USB connection and through the S-Bus into the SLA module. All very straight forward just like updating the DSO FW.
Understood.  The manual page wasn't quite clear to me until now.

It's only if you need 4+ channels this might be attractive as there is more capability within the scope than the SLA.
More info and we can better advise if SLA is the right choice for you.
I don't need anything.  :)  I was thinking about picking up a decent logic analyzer, but didn't really want a PC-based USB one for my tiny workbench.  Having the MSO pod for the 1104 made sense, but that price+license cost is a bitter pill to swallow (or more like a suppository given the scope was only $499 itself)  Being able to just fork over the bucks for the pod and creatively acquiring the license by other means would make it more attractive to a cheapskate like myself.

I am a tad concerned about the issues that toli raised, but am hoping Siglent will address them in short order.   
Other than toli's findings, the SLA HW needs be improved.
The S-Bus cable is stiff and awkward on the bench, the ribbon cable .......just the same, and the grabbers.....well Siglent cheaped out on those  >:( compared to others used for the SDS2kX and SDS1kX MSO options.
If your bench is tight you won't be happy with SLA.

One mod that can be done I think, the ribbon cable I think is terminated with SCSI connectors and a quality round SCSI cable is a better and more tidy manageable solution.
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Online BillB

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #822 on: June 22, 2018, 11:05:15 pm »
tautech, I'm getting a strange sensation that you're trying to talk me out of buying the SLA?  :scared:

 
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #823 on: June 22, 2018, 11:26:30 pm »
tautech, I'm getting a strange sensation that you're trying to talk me out of buying the SLA?  :scared:
That's entirely for you to decide on Bill as you need balance the points I've outlined against having another piece of equipment.
Look, it works but the associated HW could be better.
If I had to have it on my bench, I'd raise the DSO onto a low foot/frame/box and place the SLA and SAG modules permanently underneath so their I/O's face toward you and any HW/probes/cables that connects to them can be easily removed and stored when not in use.
They'd want to be fastened down too in some way so when connecting cables etc, it can be done without them sliding away or needing 3 hands to accomplish it.
Some decent 2" industrial Velcro could do the trick for that.  :)
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Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
« Reply #824 on: June 23, 2018, 01:30:02 am »
unboxed my new SDS1104X-E today. I'm pretty happy with it already, finally in the 21st-century scope wise..

I did the hack .. post hack .. up at 280mhz (highest I can actually compare against a known signal value) voltage readings are low by about 17% and that's a steady attenuation slope that starts dropping noticeably at about 150mhz. this was just a quick test against a calibrated signal generator 50 ohm termnated into the scope and a calibrated spectrum analyzer to double check the output level of the signal generator. 

All in all, not bad actually, and considering I'll likely not be getting 200mhz probes anytime soon so there will inaccuracies up at that range anyway with the existing probes.

Things did get weird when I turned on all 4 channels and had a 280mhz signal into channel 1, it really didn't like that, bad voltage readings, and frequency measurement, but, thats probably not unexpected.
Hobbyist and a retired engineer and possibly a test equipment addict, though, searching for the equipment to test for that.
 


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