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Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: rf-loop on August 29, 2017, 07:59:00 am

Title: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on August 29, 2017, 07:59:00 am
ETA:
NOTE
Lot of information in this thread is or is perhaps more or less obsolete except very basic things due to several FW updates. Latest FW is:  *.1.6.1.26   (* can be 7 or 8, no need think, just do not care in this case) Release Date: 26.SEP.18
So take care about possible obsolete information. Of course there is still LOT of valid information.


ETA2 // 28.05.2019:
NOTE
Lot of information in this thread is or is perhaps more or less obsolete except very basic things due to several FW updates. Latest FW is:  *.*.6.1.33   (* do not care in this case)
So take care about possible obsolete information. Of course there is still LOT of valid information.
Specially my messages/tests related to BodePlot and FFT.



I recommend for all peoples who tell experience or do some test or find some errors or other ways think that some things need develop and then show examples with his scope.

Important: Please tell always your FW version! when you show some tests or experience with this scope

Please also keep this thread for THIS oscilloscope model functions, experience, tests etc.
For other things use other treads. Or just open new.




This is more than just only 2 extra channel add to SDS1202X-E using cheap way by interleaving same ADC for more channels. 

This 4 channel version have 2 x 2channel 1GSa/s system. Around same principle as in SDS2000X series.  When all 4 channels are simultaneously in use, 500MSa/s for every Ch.   Many fetures like SDS1202X-E but also some more. Deatails later but example bode plot with phase included.

All we know that after domestic public release and launch it takes time before export.  My personal guess is, without any silent knowledge, 1Q2018. Of course these need all independent certified laboratory inspections for proof they meet all safety etc rules in different marketing area etc.

More details about features etc later.


But, it is coming. Also we can now see what is coming.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=345845;image)
----------------------------
(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E-4ch/SDS1004X-E-fuzzy-principle-adc-memory.png)

ETA:
Later:

It is now arrived to markets.

Shared vertical adjustments. I do not like shared controls but this lounge need eat or keep starving - for price and compact size.

First time in Siglent oscilloscope it have now also Sweep Frequency Response Analyzer, SFRA aka BodePlot with phase.
This is bit more than previously launched Keysight InfiniiVision 1000X models very extremely limited performance BP.
Who can say "Scrap a toys and get real oscilloscope"  SDS1004X-E series is lot of in its price class. It can be also MSO. It can be FRA analyzer and it have 1M FFT and really fast segmented memory acquisition aka Sequence mode, up to 80000 segments, down to <2.5µs trigger interval in fast Sequence mode. It have also full speed waveform history buffer always working backround. If you see some fast change in signal and stop scope, you are always late. Not with Siglent. Look previous waveforms in buffer it can still perhaps find.

ETA: Lot of information about BodePlot is obsolete. After FW version 6.1.33 Bode Plot is Bode Plot II.
It is highly improved (or better say: whole new design) after original first generation BodePlot.

New BP II information can find here. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1x04x-e-bodeplot-ii-(sfra)-features-and-testing-(coming)/)


BodePlot (SFRA)  Max 120MHz or limited more low depending what is used signal generator sinewave max.
Optional 1 channel 25MHz AWG (can control only using scope)
Other compatibles are Siglent SDG family. Just connect cables and BP function take full automatic control, no need even touch SDG front panel - exept turn power on).


(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E-4ch/b-BodePlot-SDS1104X-E-1MHz-span-5kHz-datatable.png)
Old version BP.

(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E-4ch/a-BodePlot-SDS1104X-E-1MHz-span-5kHz.png)
Sweep step 10Hz (5000 Hz span, 501 data points.)
Old version BP.

(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E-4ch/c-BodePlot-SDS1104X-E-1MHz-span-500Hz-peak.png)
Sweep step 1Hz (500 Hz span, 501 data points.)
Old version BP.

Of course fact that also this oscilloscope have 8 bit ADC means quite low dynamic range. This limit can see also in these images.

Bode blot can do low, medium and high horizontal plot resolution up to 501 data points and up to 3 channels simultaneously (1DUT input with 3 DUT outputs).
If compare to Keysight DSOX1102G it is like from other planet if look resolution - 10 points per decade *   |O   - nearly useless toy. Oh well, ok barely for educational playing with   one pole RC filter etc.
*Ref:  Keysight Technologies, 2017
Published in USA, January 8, 2018
5992-1965EN


SDS1000X-E  4-channel models. New Firmware FW 7.6.1.20
Now with new FW measured average max wfm/s is 118kwfm/s (peak max 128kwfm/s)
(single channel, dots, 50µs/div)

EDIT: Old compare table removed.
Reason: This was partially obsolete due to some Rigol FW bugfixes and due to Rigol offer for free Options.


ETA: (tested using FW *.*.6.1.26)
Serial decode: SDS1004X-E. Full memory length, but decode limited to 3000 bytes. Two independent decoder, both can have also different protocol. Example for UART it means total 4 data streams and of course full duplex. Decoder 1, Rx, Tx. Decoder 2, Rx, Tx.  Also it can decode memory stored waveforms, example in waveform history buffer or segmented memory. Decode can do without serial trigger.  Full decode result (data) can also save as .CSV file.

SDS1004X-E have web server so it can watch and control using web browser. (no need install anything, so it is also totally independent of computer OS.)
Update speed is ~10 times/sec using  100M LAN between scope and PC. (image updfate speed do not mean wfm/s speed. Oscilloscope itself works using it normal speed)


(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E-4ch/Serial-Decode-Example/SDS1104X-E--UART-RS232-Decode.png)
Just random nonsense example.

(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E-4ch/Serial-Decode-Example/SDS1104X-E--Serial-Decode-4ch-Run.png)
Just other random nonsense example. (69x4 messages and if take history buffer, with this settings there can be 36 these 7s records and all can decode and also full decode lists can save to USB flash (CSV)
Messages from Arduino Mega UART 0,1,2 and 3 Tx (every UART  send around 100ms interval but individual time)
Of course whole memory is decoded, not only zoomed bottom window. Siglent decode full memory and also no meaning if run or stop and same for history buffer (including of course also sequence mode).
Decoder 1: Rx, Tx 19200,8,E,1
Decoder 2: Rx, Tx   9600,8,O,1
(tested using FW *.*.6.1.26)




About noise. Because frequently in many threads some peoples rise question about some oscilloscope front end noise I add it here about SDS1104X-E.
But, it need really also understand what is noise and how it can characterize and measure so that different scopes are compared as apple to apple. It is more or less complex but least it is not simple. We can measure peak to peak noise. This is important value - exept if you read Agilent application notes aka "AN-advertisements". (but still I recommend to read these but just know that they find best settings for they scopes when they compare and other scope perhaps just bad settings or least not optimal)
 
Many times we need live with peak values - worst case values in many places when we do measurements. Even if we talk about time jitter or signal noise. If we are heating our room with electric we need RMS value.

But then, how we can compare different oscilloscopes if we look peak values. We can easy but result is mostly not apple to apple compare.  Noise is more or less random. Other scope may collect and show less amount of data and propability to get highest peaks are different. Fast cope may show more noise just because it show more data and random distribution more rare events come also more visible. It need also note that Siglemn do not decimate data for display. On the screen trace length is 700 pixel. If there is 7000 data points capture length then 10 data point is mapped to one time position on the screen. If data length is 14M then there is 20000 sample for one time position on the screen. (one pixel column on screen). This kind of things affects lot of how much data you see on the screen and more fat trace when there is noise because more highest peaks.

There is borderline good method for compare. We can compare these values but it is not what we see, so if you read only that scope noise level is measured and it is 50µV RMS - do not think you see 50 or 100uV thick trace. You see more or much more fat trace. Perhaps over 400µVpp depending your scope and scope settings. (Memory, sampling speed, wfm/s speed, amount of displayed data, Horizontal speed... )
But, mesasuring RMS make results more comparable than measuring "visual" peak to peak.

RMS is bit tricky. Because if we have very high sensitivity there exists very easy some DC offset. RMS include this DC offset - of course.  How to clean away this mean value from result. Of course IF scope have very accurate DC offset nulling then RMS is ok but often it drift some amount, specially if scope have high sensitivity.
But wait a momement: Do we really want measure RMS. No.
We need measure RMSnoise. Here we are interested only this noise power but not its mean power value what include DC..  If we can run this (offset)DC  including noise via DC block  then we can just use RMS. But we do not have this. So we need use math. Trick is here.
It is quite simple if oscilloscope have this measurement. Instead of using RMS there can use SDEV. Are you surpriced. RMS = SDEV. (No they are not at all same but in this special case when we measure random noise and mean (DC offset) is removed.)

Here is noise with (100MHz BW because model is 100MHz SDS1104X-E)
Most oscilloscope have 20M BW setting, so, with it 500M and 50M scope can somehow compare also.

500µV/div 100M BW (as can see DC offset removed noise RMS is <60µV)
500µV/div 20 BW (as can see DC offset removed noise RMS is <<30µV )
1mV/div 100M BW (as can see DC offset removed noise RMS is ~60µV )
1m/div 20M BW (as can see DC offset removed noise RMS is ~30µV )
Title: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: karkoon on August 29, 2017, 08:18:05 am
Awesome. 200 MHz and 1 G Samples. I wonder how expensive it will be. If it is similar to SDS1202XE then I am personally going to miss waiting for some more time. ??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: lukier on August 29, 2017, 08:25:16 am
Is the HDMI connector labelled SBus for the logic analyzer?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: exe on August 29, 2017, 08:31:27 am
How bode plot was made? Does it come with a built-in 30MHz signal generator?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Leon23 on August 29, 2017, 08:40:13 am
Excellent. Would be nice to compare this with the 1054Z 'bang for buck'.
Thank you for the update.

//Leon
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on August 29, 2017, 09:08:32 am
Shared vertical adjustments. I do not like shared controls but this lounge need eat or keep starving - for price and compact size.
I too was hoping for individual controls....oh well it's not like Siglent don't know how to multiplex them.... SDS3000/WS3000.

Translated:
Channel bandwidth: 70MHz, 100MHz, 200MHz
The 2-channel series uses a 1GSa / s ADC chip, 4-channel series using two 1GSa / s ADC chip, the channel is fully open, the sampling rate of each channel 500MSa / s, channel interleaving sampling rate 1GSa / s
New generation of SPO technology
Waveform capture rate of 100,000 frames per second (normal mode); 400,000 frames per second (Sequence mode)
    Supports 256 levels of waveform brightness and color temperature display
    Storage depth of 14Mpts
    Digital triggering system
 Smart triggering: Edge, Slope, Pulse width, Window, Interval, Dropout, Pattern,
 Serial bus triggers and decodes, supports protocol IIC, SPI, UART / RS232, CAN, LIN
 Video triggered to support HDTV
 Excellent background noise, voltage range down to 500?V / div
 10 one-button shortcuts to support Auto Setup, Default, Cursors, Measure, Roll, History, Persist, Clear Sweeps, Math and Print
 Sequential, which maximizes the storage depth by 80,000 segments, capturing eligible events with very small dead time, based on the user-set trigger conditions
 Historical mode, up to 80,000 frames can be recorded
 38 kinds of automatic measurement functions, support measurement statistics, Zoom measurement, Gating measurement, Math measurement, History measurement, Ref measurement
 1M point FFT operation
 14M full sampling point measurement and operation, through the coprocessor to complete, bring a very fast user experience
 Waveform function (FFT, add, subtract, multiply, divide, integral, derivative, square root)
 User-defined key Default parameter to achieve the individual requirements of the Default key
 Secure erase function, delete all operating records and user data on the machine, and apply to industries with high safety
 High-speed Pass / Fail function for hardware implementation
 Amplitude-frequency characteristics and phase-frequency characteristics of the scan, drawing the Bode diagram (4-channel series support)
 Event search and navigation (4-channel series support)
 USB Arbitrary Waveform Generator Module (4-Channel Series Support, Options)
 USB WIFI adapter (4-channel series support, option)
 7-inch TFT-LCD display with a resolution of 800 * 480
 Rich interface: USB Host, USB Device (USBTMC), LAN (VXI-11), Pass / Fail, Trigger Out
 Supports rich SCPI remote control commands
 Web pages for remote control
 Multi-language display and embedded online help


Is the HDMI connector labelled SBus for the logic analyzer?
Yep. 16 digital channels.
How bode plot was made? Does it come with a built-in 30MHz signal generator?
25 MHz (option)

As when the 1202X-E was about to be released all the guessing in the world could not have imagined that a 200 MHz unit was the only one released to western markets so I reckon we'll have to wait and see what comes as part of the package and what is optioned.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on August 29, 2017, 09:24:05 am
If think to compare with Zbox. Why?  What information we get if we compare so different class of things, even if they both have 4 channels. Do we compare all vehicles with 4 wheels.

Here is chinese language data sheet. (https://siglent.fi/data/SDS1000X-E/SDS1--4X-E/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-C03A.pdf)


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on August 29, 2017, 09:26:43 am
Dual window zoom.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=345868;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: StillTrying on August 29, 2017, 10:48:02 am
Perhaps the BW is even better on DC10M X10.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on August 29, 2017, 05:07:48 pm
"USB Arbitrary Waveform Generator Module" hmm...
Would be nice if it can be paired with SDG2000X instead ;) Or even SDG6000X!
Also maybe still time to fix typo on front panel: 1Ga/s => 1GSa/s
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Diabolo on August 29, 2017, 06:15:55 pm
Hello,

http://www.siglent.com/prodcut-db.aspx?id=1529&tid=1&T=2 (http://www.siglent.com/prodcut-db.aspx?id=1529&tid=1&T=2)

Regards,
Diabolo
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on August 29, 2017, 07:08:15 pm
"USB Arbitrary Waveform Generator Module" hmm...
Would be nice if it can be paired with SDG2000X instead ;) Or even SDG6000X!
This is the only image I could find of it in use but it didn't copy well.  ::)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=345994;image)

More translated:
4 channel models support more features, including: event search and navigation functions, fast positioning to the defined event; support baud map function; support USB arbitrary waveform generator module (optional), single channel, 25MHz; support USB WIFI adapter access to the wireless LAN (optional); provide Web pages, without the need to install the driver and client software to the remote management of the instrument.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: DaYooper on August 29, 2017, 08:48:22 pm
Hello,

http://www.siglent.com/prodcut-db.aspx?id=1529&tid=1&T=2 (http://www.siglent.com/prodcut-db.aspx?id=1529&tid=1&T=2)

Regards,
Diabolo

Hmmmm......  ($379/?6,480)*?8,480 = $496.  MSRP of $499 maybe.  That would be a killer price.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on August 30, 2017, 07:35:31 am
"USB Arbitrary Waveform Generator Module" hmm...
Would be nice if it can be paired with SDG2000X instead ;) Or even SDG6000X!
Also maybe still time to fix typo on front panel: 1Ga/s => 1GSa/s

I think it will be possible to control an external AWG device, you can see at page 6 of the data sheet:

"The SDS1000X-E can control the USB Arbitrary Waveform Generator module or control an independent AWG device, perform amplitude-frequency and phase-frequency sweeps, display the results in a baud or list, and export the scan data"
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on August 30, 2017, 07:39:18 am
"USB Arbitrary Waveform Generator Module" hmm...
Would be nice if it can be paired with SDG2000X instead ;) Or even SDG6000X!
This is the only image I could find of it in use but it didn't copy well.  ::)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=345994)

More translated:
4 channel models support more features, including: event search and navigation functions, fast positioning to the defined event; support baud map function; support USB arbitrary waveform generator module (optional), single channel, 25MHz; support USB WIFI adapter access to the wireless LAN (optional); provide Web pages, without the need to install the driver and client software to the remote management of the instrument.

here is a better image :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on August 30, 2017, 07:57:26 am
"The SDS1000X-E can control the USB Arbitrary Waveform Generator module or control an independent AWG device, perform amplitude-frequency and phase-frequency sweeps, display the results in a baud or list, and export the scan data"

Seems Hydraulic Press Channel dude must deal with it fast, if it indeed can control SDG*00X then very dangerous and may attack competition at any time!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: exe on August 30, 2017, 08:05:42 am
New killerscope in town? :) If it is really well below $1k...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: pascal_sweden on August 30, 2017, 04:56:52 pm
When this scope is launched in Europe, the Rigol DS1054Z will be reaching the end of its glory days :)

Most likely Rigol is preparing for a similar new kid on the block however =)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on August 30, 2017, 05:31:42 pm
When this scope is launched in Europe, the Rigol DS1054Z will be reaching the end of its glory days :)
I think so too but then again I have a feeling Rigol sold many more of the DS1054Z than Siglent sold scopes in total so Rigol must have pretty deep pockets by now. If Rigol comes up with a scope based on an ASIC like Keysight then the tables may turn quickly in favor of Rigol.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on August 30, 2017, 05:35:51 pm
When this scope is launched in Europe, the Rigol DS1054Z will be reaching the end of its glory days :)

No device can be champ forever.  :-//

There's only six months left to hate it, all the Rigol haters had better go over to the DS1054Z thread and do some extra hating.  :popcorn:

Most likely Rigol is preparing for a similar new kid on the block however =)

They haven't released any new models for ages. I wonder why...?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on August 30, 2017, 05:55:06 pm
There's only six months left to hate it, all the Rigol haters had better go over to the DS1054Z thread and do some extra hating.

Cheer up, I loved the looks of it :-* Maybe can mate Z + X-E and get something that cheap Tek should be (but is not*). Smart and sharp looks :-+
*+-
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on August 30, 2017, 06:09:26 pm
Rigol haven't released any new models for ages. I wonder why...?

Oh, wait, I remember why! They've been busy making an entirely new chipset (https://www.rigolna.com/news/2017/00001735/).

"RIGOL will formally announce our first products utilizing the Phoenix Chipset before the end of 2017 with initial customer shipments planned in Q4 2017."
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on August 30, 2017, 06:15:09 pm
Oh, wait, I remember why! They've been busy making an entirely new chipset (https://www.rigolna.com/news/2017/00001735/).

...for 1+ GHz scopes... "Ultravision II will transform the customer value proposition in the 1-4GHz oscilloscope market." So this is why Z cant tell square wave from derivative? Rigol all too busy chasing top dollar - hobbyists can wait...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on August 30, 2017, 09:18:05 pm
Oh, wait, I remember why! They've been busy making an entirely new chipset (https://www.rigolna.com/news/2017/00001735/).

...for 1+ GHz scopes... "Ultravision II will transform the customer value proposition in the 1-4GHz oscilloscope market." So this is why Z cant tell square wave from derivative? Rigol all too busy chasing top dollar - hobbyists can wait...
If that is true then it seems Rigol is still chasing the dreams Siglent already has given up on.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on August 30, 2017, 09:24:41 pm
Oh, wait, I remember why! They've been busy making an entirely new chipset (https://www.rigolna.com/news/2017/00001735/).

...for 1+ GHz scopes... "Ultravision II will transform the customer value proposition in the 1-4GHz oscilloscope market." So this is why Z cant tell square wave from derivative? Rigol all too busy chasing top dollar - hobbyists can wait...
If that is true then it seems Rigol is still chasing the dreams Siglent already has given up on.
How could you know ?  :-//
 :-X
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on August 30, 2017, 09:41:30 pm
Oh, wait, I remember why! They've been busy making an entirely new chipset (https://www.rigolna.com/news/2017/00001735/).

...for 1+ GHz scopes... "Ultravision II will transform the customer value proposition in the 1-4GHz oscilloscope market." So this is why Z cant tell square wave from derivative? Rigol all too busy chasing top dollar - hobbyists can wait...
If that is true then it seems Rigol is still chasing the dreams Siglent already has given up on.
How could you know ?  :-//
 :-X
Simple: Siglent hasn't introduced a new scope with a >=300MHz bandwidth in years. Also the most recent additions to the line-up are clearly aimed at the low cost hobbyist market by using aggressive pricing and customers as beta testers.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on August 31, 2017, 02:46:33 am
Oh, wait, I remember why! They've been busy making an entirely new chipset (https://www.rigolna.com/news/2017/00001735/).

...for 1+ GHz scopes... "Ultravision II will transform the customer value proposition in the 1-4GHz oscilloscope market." So this is why Z cant tell square wave from derivative? Rigol all too busy chasing top dollar - hobbyists can wait...
If that is true then it seems Rigol is still chasing the dreams Siglent already has given up on.
How could you know ?  :-//
 :-X
Simple: Siglent hasn't introduced a new scope with a >=300MHz bandwidth in years.
So ? You make out like it's not considered or possibly under development.
I ask again, how could you know.......you don't. Period.

Quote
Also the most recent additions to the line-up are clearly aimed at the low cost hobbyist market
2 models that aren't:
SSA3000X
SDG6000X

Quote
using aggressive pricing

I'm really sorry that your GW is overpriced.  :P

Quote
customers as beta testers.
Didn't you report some bugs to GW ?
Edit. And Misig ?

Why hello beta tester.  :-DD
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on August 31, 2017, 06:13:05 am
The GW Instek GDS-2204E had two or three minor bugs which where solved within weeks. The dissaster with the Siglent SDS2000 made me want to verify all functions before committing to buying it. Since then a handfull of minor bugs got fixed (exotic stuff like things going wrong if there is a space in a free math expression send to the scope using an SCPI command). I got the MicSig TO1104 specifically for a review where they installed a beta version of the decoding, so yes that deserved some remarks. Both these scopes don't have a bug list as long as a typical Siglent unit after it has been released and no trivial bugs which should discovered by the factory's testers.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on September 24, 2017, 08:54:35 am
"USB Arbitrary Waveform Generator Module" hmm...
Would be nice if it can be paired with SDG2000X instead ;) Or even SDG6000X
It can.
From the datasheet for Bode plot mode:
"control an independent SIGLENT SDG instrument"

It has 2, yes 2 USB A sockets, one front and another rear along with the standard USB Device (USB -TMC).

(http://www.siglent.com/Chinese_website2014/picture/SDS1000X-E/21.png)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 27, 2017, 12:18:17 am
Should this be capable to capture waveforms and send these to any AWG, or just Siglent ones? I'm not sure how standardized these protocols are.

Has anyone found any review or footage of the domestic release? It's been out for about a month now, but can find exactly nothing on it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: stj on September 27, 2017, 01:51:46 am
i am disapointed,   :(
i was hoping to see a low end scope with a monitor output on the back. (VGA / DVI - not something requiring an interface!)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 27, 2017, 02:34:40 am
i am disapointed,   :(
i was hoping to see a low end scope with a monitor output on the back. (VGA / DVI - not something requiring an interface!)
HDMI is a pretty good alternative to DVI.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on September 27, 2017, 03:04:39 am
Should this be capable to capture waveforms and send these to any AWG, or just Siglent ones? I'm not sure how standardized these protocols are.
They're not standardised. This unit as mentioned above can control the optional USB AWG module or another Siglent standalone AWG from within the DSO's UI. This is primarily for use with the Bode plot feature however the AWG can be controlled for other use just like an inbuilt AWG could/would be.

Other than data that can be gleaned from the datasheet most of us that have these units are bound by NDA.  :-X
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: stj on September 27, 2017, 04:13:03 am
i am disapointed,   :(
i was hoping to see a low end scope with a monitor output on the back. (VGA / DVI - not something requiring an interface!)
HDMI is a pretty good alternative to DVI.

 :-DD

HDMI is DVI-D signals on a cheap shitty connector with added digital audio and a license fee!!!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on September 27, 2017, 08:43:44 am
Think physical display interface is not cost-effective if there is LAN port that could be used to serve screen as well?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: JanJansen on September 27, 2017, 01:56:20 pm
Be aware : dont buy domestic market stuff in China,
the quality is inferior, you might already know that.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: stj on September 27, 2017, 06:20:48 pm
Think physical display interface is not cost-effective if there is LAN port that could be used to serve screen as well?

i seriously doubt the network can be used to mirror the screen in realtime.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on September 27, 2017, 06:49:56 pm
The 4 channel models will have WiFi and Webserver. This way you can replicate and command the unit from a PC using the browser. and the IP address of the unit. Not bad for a entry level unit.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: stj on September 27, 2017, 07:10:35 pm
not for me, i dont want RF emissions on my workbench.
what asshole thought that up?

i have sensitive circuits running out of the housing with the shielding removed - i dont want a damned transmitter in the room!!
 :palm:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 27, 2017, 07:12:12 pm
:-DD

HDMI is DVI-D signals on a cheap shitty connector with added digital audio and a license fee!!!
The connector has more than one function, which probably dictated the connector choice. Other than that, it's just DVI with some stuff added, so there isn't much to fault.

The 4 channel models will have WiFi and Webserver. This way you can replicate and command the unit from a PC using the browser. and the IP address of the unit. Not bad for a entry level unit.
That sounds horrible. Unless there is fast and effective support for any bugs and security flaws found for the next 10-15 years, which there inevitably won't be, it sounds like a huge security liability. Companies just don't seem to learn that hooking things up to the internet is the easy part. It's effectively supporting it and making sure things are safe that's the hard part. Having a botnet running on your oscilloscope isn't much fun, having it being an entry point for further compromise is even worse.

You know what they say: the "S" in IoT stands for security.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on September 27, 2017, 07:12:43 pm
not for me, i dont want RF emissions on my workbench.
what asshole thought that up?

i have sensitive circuits running out of the housing with the shielding removed - i dont want a damned transmitter in the room!!
 :palm:
Well, you can still use the LAN cable for the same application
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on September 27, 2017, 07:16:54 pm
The 4 channel models will have WiFi and Webserver. This way you can replicate and command the unit from a PC using the browser. and the IP address of the unit. Not bad for a entry level unit.
That sounds horrible. Unless there is fast and effective support for any bugs and security flaws found for the next 10-15 years, which there inevitably won't be, it sounds like a huge security liability. Companies just don't seem to learn that hooking things up to the internet is the easy part. It's effectively supporting it and making sure things are safe that's the hard part. Having a botnet running on your oscilloscope isn't much fun, having it being an entry point for further compromise is even worse.

You know what they say: the "S" in IoT stands for security.
[/quote]
We will test the device as soon as we get them (possibly end of the year).
To be honest we have several companies asking for webserver compatibility, so we have to think that part of the market is looking for it.
However we can only comment about the workability after we test them.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on September 27, 2017, 07:22:45 pm
not for me, i dont want RF emissions on my workbench.
what asshole thought that up?

i have sensitive circuits running out of the housing with the shielding removed - i dont want a damned transmitter in the room!!
 :palm:
Fine, then turn it OFF.  :P
It's a USB dongle, not inbuilt and it's optional. The functionality is inbuilt into the UI.

Of course it won't suit everybody, it's just another form of connectivity to add to USB and LAN for the inbuilt web server.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 27, 2017, 07:28:24 pm
We will test the device as soon as we get them (possibly end of the year).
To be honest we have several companies asking for webserver compatibility, so we have to think that part of the market is looking for it.
However we can only comment about the workability after we test them.
Again, people asking for webserver compatibility are asking for it being done in a secure fashion. Unfortunately, recent history tells us that this is rarely the case. The security of networked devices is generally atrocious and no more than an afterthought. Properly securing and supporting networked devices is a serious, long term investment very few companies are able or willing to take. Even companies who have networking as a core business run afoul of this regularly. Not too long ago, a huge botnet running on IP camaras and was uncovered. Putting something on the internet is a serious thing that's underestimated by pretty much everyone.

Workability is only of concern after it's actually safe.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on September 27, 2017, 07:56:18 pm
Putting something on the internet is a serious thing that's underestimated by pretty much everyone.

Nowdays people seem to forget subtle meaning behind term LAN:
Local Area Network.
Just use local physically isolated network for lab devices.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 27, 2017, 08:51:57 pm
Nowdays people seem to forget subtle meaning behind term LAN:
Local Area Network.
Just use local physically isolated network for lab devices.
Calling it LAN instead of ethernet does not absolve the manufacturer from its responsibilities regarding security, nor does my ability to isolate networks.

We're not even talking about the thing apparently having a webserver on board.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: technogeeky on September 27, 2017, 09:32:06 pm
 :-DD

the racism and comments about the security of optional features that nobody in this thread could have possibly evaluated

 :-DD
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 27, 2017, 09:53:06 pm
:-DD

the racism and comments about the security of optional features that nobody in this thread could have possibly evaluated

 :-DD
Racism? What racism? That doesn't seem to make sense.

While probably technically true that the security features have not been evaluated, it also pretty much fully irrelevant. Networked devices have a terrible track record when it comes to network security and there is no reason this device would be different. I will eat my words when Siglent announces 15, 10 or even 5 years of regular security updates for it, but I don't think anyone will be holding his breath. Unless the law starts dictating that the software and associated updates are as much part of a device as the hardware is, the situation is unlikely to improve.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on September 27, 2017, 10:08:30 pm
A piece of test equipment has no place on an insecure network so security isn't necessary. Worse, it will probably in the way of regular use anyway. Imagine having to access a scope using SSH from a piece of software  :scared: The overhead alone is going to be a problem and how are lab technicians going to troubleshoot network problems? So in reality test equipment is always on local networks which are not accessible from the outside.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 27, 2017, 10:19:57 pm
A piece of test equipment has no place on an insecure network so security isn't necessary. Worse, it will probably in the way of regular use anyway. Imagine having to access a scope using SSH from a piece of software  :scared: The overhead alone is going to be a problem and how are lab technicians going to troubleshoot network problems? So in reality test equipment is always on local networks which are not accessible from the outside.
You're not understanding the problem. This type of hardware may very well make the network insecure, rather than it being put on an insecure network. We'll have to see how that effectively works out, but history isn't painting a pretty picture. Also, let's not be naive. These scopes will at least in part end up in places with little to no IT support. They shouldn't be a risk to the local network, period. That means it needs properly developed and tested software, which gets updated on a regular basis. It will be interesting to see if and how Siglent deals with that part.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: technogeeky on September 27, 2017, 10:32:20 pm
:-DD

the racism and comments about the security of optional features that nobody in this thread could have possibly evaluated

 :-DD
Racism? What racism? That doesn't seem to make sense.

While probably technically true that the security features have not been evaluated, it also pretty much fully irrelevant. Networked devices have a terrible track record when it comes to network security and there is no reason this device would be different. I will eat my words when Siglent announces 15, 10 or even 5 years of regular security updates for it, but I don't think anyone will be holding his breath. Unless the law starts dictating that the software and associated updates are as much part of a device as the hardware is, the situation is unlikely to improve.

The racism quote wasn't about you, don't worry.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rstofer on September 27, 2017, 10:54:22 pm
A piece of test equipment has no place on an insecure network so security isn't necessary. Worse, it will probably in the way of regular use anyway. Imagine having to access a scope using SSH from a piece of software  :scared: The overhead alone is going to be a problem and how are lab technicians going to troubleshoot network problems? So in reality test equipment is always on local networks which are not accessible from the outside.
You're not understanding the problem. This type of hardware may very well make the network insecure, rather than it being put on an insecure network. We'll have to see how that effectively works out, but history isn't painting a pretty picture. Also, let's not be naive. These scopes will at least in part end up in places with little to no IT support. They shouldn't be a risk to the local network, period. That means it needs properly developed and tested software, which gets updated on a regular basis. It will be interesting to see if and how Siglent deals with that part.

Well, let's just watch for a few years and see what happens.

I can't figure out WHY I would poke a hole in my firewall to allow access from the Internet.  I might even create a subnet for testing and make sure the NAT feature doesn't translate it.

Or, more likely, I won't even bother to connect the network cable.  As a simple user, I see no utility in networking test equipment.  It's not like I need automation.

Others will have to deal with this security problem as they see fit.  I have my solution!  Don't plug in the cable...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on September 28, 2017, 06:09:48 am
A piece of test equipment has no place on an insecure network so security isn't necessary. Worse, it will probably in the way of regular use anyway. Imagine having to access a scope using SSH from a piece of software  :scared: The overhead alone is going to be a problem and how are lab technicians going to troubleshoot network problems? So in reality test equipment is always on local networks which are not accessible from the outside.
You're not understanding the problem. This type of hardware may very well make the network insecure, rather than it being put on an insecure network. We'll have to see how that effectively works out, but history isn't painting a pretty picture. Also, let's not be naive. These scopes will at least in part end up in places with little to no IT support. They shouldn't be a risk to the local network, period.
And how exactly does a piece of test equipment becomes a risk to the network? I don't see this happening in any realistic scenario unless it is 'infected' at the factory.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 28, 2017, 07:11:12 am
And how exactly does a piece of test equipment becomes a risk to the network? I don't see this happening in any realistic scenario unless it is 'infected' at the factory.
Why do you think that? It just needs a vulnerability like many simple networked devices have, in no small part because these devices are rarely conceived with security in mind. The device gets compromised through wifi, the network itself or USB. After an attacker gains a foothold, he can work to compromise the rest of the network. Once you're in, traversing the network is a lot easier. It also allows for more complex attacks, where a temporary compromise elsewhere gets turned into a permanent foothold within the network. This isn't theoretical either, but has become a real life everyday threat.

Quote
Or, as John Pironti, president of IP Architects puts it, "A lot of adversaries, and a lot of people who are looking at this problem, aren't looking at it as 'let me go and attack your toaster': they're looking at it as 'let me attack your toaster to use it as a way to get into the rest of your network'."

http://www.zdnet.com/article/the-rise-of-iot-hacking-new-dangers-new-solutions/ (http://www.zdnet.com/article/the-rise-of-iot-hacking-new-dangers-new-solutions/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Gabri74 on September 28, 2017, 07:40:44 am
That sounds horrible. Unless there is fast and effective support for any bugs and security flaws found for the next 10-15 years, which there inevitably won't be, it sounds like a huge security liability. Companies just don't seem to learn that hooking things up to the internet is the easy part. It's effectively supporting it and making sure things are safe that's the hard part. Having a botnet running on your oscilloscope isn't much fun, having it being an entry point for further compromise is even worse.

You know what they say: the "S" in IoT stands for security.

Been at a client laboratory recently... several Lecroy top-notch scopes (the ones you are scared to death to stumble on the probes and have to sell your home to pay it back)... Windows 7.... connected to the Company Windows Domain.... about 15 minutes (not kidding!) to boot up... antivirus installed.....   man.... the pain...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on September 28, 2017, 07:43:49 am
It might seem Mr Scram might not be happy with any equipment that offers any kind of remote connectivity.  :-//
USB, LAN, WiFi are all here to stay so the only grace is that Siglent run Linux OS on their gear.

From the Cn website, a look at the web server, DSO control from PC browser:

(http://www.siglent.com/Chinese_website2014/picture/SDS1000X-E/20.png)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on September 28, 2017, 07:56:40 am
Having a WiFi interface is not inherently worse than having an Ethernet interface, which nowadays we consider a given.

There are risks with any software that can be accessed through a network and, indeed, models will be eventually phased out, turning them into sitting ducks. Just have a look at all the perfectly functional gear out there based on Windows. I dare you to connect and old Agilent or LeCroy oscilloscope, based on Windows, to a more or less open university network. But more than a risk to the whole network it's a risk to the instrument itself. If the software gets corrupted you might end up with an expensive door stop.

There has been a lot of publicity about the risks of the Internet of Things, but the risk itself depends on the application. Right now the worst culprits, for example, are web accessible cameras that have become bots used in denial of service attacks. That is indeed a risk to your network because it can saturate your Internet connection. And of course a hacked camera can be used as an entry point to explore your whole network and look for other targets.

But web cameras and, in general, sensors, are generally conceived so that you will access them from a remote location. The user of such a device will often define a NAT mapping in order to be able to access a builtin web server from a remote location. And that is certainly a security risk. There have been serious incidents and there will be lots more.

However, is this a likely scenario with a device such an oscilloscope? I don't think so. Of course it can be convenient to monitor an experiment from home. But I don't think it will be such a frequent usage. So, the risk is not the same.

Thanks to the scarcity of IPv4 addresses most Internet connections are configured with NAT (network address translation) which turns the router into a de facto firewall. None of the devices you plug inside your network can be accessed from the outside unless you explicitly set up a mapping in your router. With IPv6 and no NAT this will change radically and routers will need an explicit firewall functionality. Fortunately IPv6 address spaces are so large, it will be impractical to scan address ranges in order to discover vulnerable devices. I've been using IPv6 at home for a year now and I have set up a packet capture for the parts of my address space I am not using (a /48 network). I am still to see a single packet, let alone a scan, directed to my network, while the IPv4 addresses get hit several times per hour.

So, is it worse with WiFi? I don't think so. Moreover, WiFi access points make it easier to segment your network than network switches. On most you can create several SSIDs and you don´t need to bother with assigning ports one by one to different VLANs (which can be a bothersome chore in a network switch). Also you can configure many access points so that wireless users can't contact each other, reducing the probability of "propagation" of an "infection" from one device to another.

In short: what I would suggest to manufacturers is to provide a way to disable all forms of connectivity in the instruments. Not just WiFi, but Ethernet and/or USB. That will be useful in student labs where you want to minimize risks. Those "security" preferences should be protected by some sort of admin password, so that a user won't be able to use the network ports of an instrument without permission.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on September 28, 2017, 08:11:01 am
Having a WiFi interface is not inherently worse than having an Ethernet interface, which nowadays we consider a given.

:clap:
https://www.hacker9.com/hack-public-wifi-hotspots-cracking-passwords.html (https://www.hacker9.com/hack-public-wifi-hotspots-cracking-passwords.html)

Overall, anytime you feel that made network (esp. wireless) or installation secure just watch some
https://www.youtube.com/user/DEFCONConference (https://www.youtube.com/user/DEFCONConference)
videos, feeling will pass ::)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on September 28, 2017, 08:22:08 am
Having a WiFi interface is not inherently worse than having an Ethernet interface, which nowadays we consider a given.

:clap:
https://www.hacker9.com/hack-public-wifi-hotspots-cracking-passwords.html (https://www.hacker9.com/hack-public-wifi-hotspots-cracking-passwords.html)

Overall, anytime you feel that made network (esp. wireless) or installation secure just watch some
https://www.youtube.com/user/DEFCONConference (https://www.youtube.com/user/DEFCONConference)
videos, feeling will pass ::)
Again, mixing risks.

The worst "IoT" security risks come from random abuse by people who could be at any distance. I am talking about the classical abuses of web based cameras, etc. WiFi won't make a difference here.

Regarding WPA2 (the rest of the WiFi encryption protocols are insecure) you need a lot of resources to crack a good WiFi password. Of course, any encryption system is inherently vulnerable to brute force attacks or even random luck. But cracking a good WPA2 password is impractical. WiFi networks are being abused largely thanks to WEP and WPS.

Nevertheless, what are we talking about? I said that having a wireless interface in an oscilloscope is not inherently worse than having an Ethernet interface. Or is it worse to have it in your oscilloscope than having it in a computer/tablet/phone?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on September 28, 2017, 08:31:10 am
Nevertheless, what are we talking about? I said that having a wireless interface in an oscilloscope is not inherently worse than having an Ethernet interface. Or is it worse to have it in your oscilloscope than having it in a computer/tablet/phone?

It actually is worse. Because if get enabled for any reason (user error, firmware bug, (timed) firmware exploit, ...) it will be there to probe. However disconnected LAN cable is just that - disconnected cable and will require physical security breach to compromise.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 28, 2017, 08:32:10 am
It might seem Mr Scram might not be happy with any equipment that offers any kind of remote connectivity.  :-//
USB, LAN, WiFi are all here to stay so the only grace is that Siglent run Linux OS on their gear.

From the Cn website, a look at the web server, DSO control from PC browser:

(http://www.siglent.com/Chinese_website2014/picture/SDS1000X-E/20.png)
Let's not be like that. We both know that networking capabilities get literally put in everything and the kitchen sink nowadays and that security is almost all cases is, at best, an afterthought. It's only fair to be wary in this case, as even big brand names often get it wrong and in ways that cause serious problems. Add to that the conclusion that the more well known Chinese test gear manufacturers don't have a stellar record when it comes to firmware updates.

If Siglent shows a commitment to providing properly developed and well maintained software, I certainly wouldn't mind as much. Communicating how long the device will be supported wouldn't hurt either. That's all.

Again, mixing risks.

The worst "IoT" security risks come from random abuse by people who could be at any distance. I am talking about the classical abuses of web based cameras, etc. WiFi won't make a difference here.

Regarding WPA2 (the rest of the WiFi encryption protocols are insecure) you need a lot of resources to crack a good WiFi password. Of course, any encryption system is inherently vulnerable to brute force attacks or even random luck. But cracking a good WPA2 password is impractical. WiFi networks are being abused largely thanks to WEP and WPS.

Nevertheless, what are we talking about? I said that having a wireless interface in an oscilloscope is not inherently worse than having an Ethernet interface. Or is it worse to have it in your oscilloscope than having it in a computer/tablet/phone?
Computer software certainly is much better maintained than that of simpler networked devices. Phone software sometimes is, although a lot of manufacturers are just as bad as the IoT folks. I've seen all phone support being dropped within 6 months of release, which meant users were vulnerable to known issues within a year of purchase without recourse.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on September 28, 2017, 08:36:18 am
I said that having a wireless interface in an oscilloscope is not inherently worse than having an Ethernet interface. Or is it worse to have it in your oscilloscope than having it in a computer/tablet/phone?
Exactly, no worse than any other device.
For this unit both LAN and WiFi can be enabled/disabled OR unplugged.

Bit different to a USB scope where you have to have connectivity to another device in order just to use it.  ::)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on September 28, 2017, 08:36:45 am
Nevertheless, what are we talking about? I said that having a wireless interface in an oscilloscope is not inherently worse than having an Ethernet interface. Or is it worse to have it in your oscilloscope than having it in a computer/tablet/phone?

It actually is worse. Because if get enabled for any reason (user error, firmware bug, (timed) firmware exploit, ...) it will be there to probe. However disconnected LAN cable is just that - disconnected cable and will require physical security breach to compromise.
That's true. Anyway in this particular case it's a USB dongle that you can disconnect as well.

And, again, wireless based attacks are necessarily local in scope and risky. More and more equipment manufacturers are incorporating security measures that can promptly detect such an attack attempt, which makes it risky.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on September 28, 2017, 08:38:04 am
Bit different to a USB scope where you have to have connectivity to another device in order just to use it.  ::)
Yes, a Windows based computer, which is extremely unlikely to be compromised with at least a piece of remotely controlled malware.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 28, 2017, 08:52:11 am
That's true. Anyway in this particular case it's a USB dongle that you can disconnect as well.

And, again, wireless based attacks are necessarily local in scope and risky. More and more equipment manufacturers are incorporating security measures that can promptly detect such an attack attempt, which makes it risky.
I gather the device will retain the network key, even when not connected over wifi.

In any case, this has turned into a much larger discussion than intended. Let's just say that a lot of us hope that manufacturers take networking security serious, instead of it being an afterthought. Siglent can show us how things should be done here.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on September 28, 2017, 09:00:35 am
In any case, this has turned into a much larger discussion than intended. Let's just say that a lot of us hope that manufacturers take networking security serious, instead of it being an afterthought. Siglent can show us how things should be done here.
I'm afraid that won't happen. Security is very hard. And their priority will be to offer functionality.

Have you tried connecting any instrument to a network and feeding it nonsense? (Parameters out of range, strings that are too long, etc?). You are likely to make them crash. And that means there's a potential buffer overflow vulnerability there waiting to be abused.

There is a fundamental problem in the way we program and the architecture of our processors. Unless those problems are really addressed (and that's an extremely hard problem to tackle) even the best designed software will have vulnerabilities, period.

Anyway, for equipment not designed to be serving on the Internet, intended instead to be connected to small, restricted networks, the risk is not so large. And the local wireless attacks discussed by MrW0lf's are likely to be experienced only by high value targets, if any.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on September 28, 2017, 09:17:08 am
That's true. Anyway in this particular case it's a USB dongle that you can disconnect as well.

And, again, wireless based attacks are necessarily local in scope and risky. More and more equipment manufacturers are incorporating security measures that can promptly detect such an attack attempt, which makes it risky.
I gather the device will retain the network key, even when not connected over wifi.
"Saving" can be optional.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 28, 2017, 09:32:17 am
I'm afraid that won't happen. Security is very hard. And their priority will be to offer functionality.

Have you tried connecting any instrument to a network and feeding it nonsense? (Parameters out of range, strings that are too long, etc?). You are likely to make them crash. And that means there's a potential buffer overflow vulnerability there waiting to be abused.

There is a fundamental problem in the way we program and the architecture of our processors. Unless those problems are really addressed (and that's an extremely hard problem to tackle) even the best designed software will have vulnerabilities, period.

Anyway, for equipment not designed to be serving on the Internet, intended instead to be connected to small, restricted networks, the risk is not so large. And the local wireless attacks discussed by MrW0lf's are likely to be experienced only by high value targets, if any.
Security is very hard to do right and you are probably right about the priorities here, which is why I'm wary and initially started the discussion. Software development isn't mature at all either, which leads to all sorts of problems, as you state correctly.

About attacks happening only to high value targets I unfortunately have to disagree. Most people think they, their hardware or their information is not valuable enough, but experience has taught us that almost everyone has something an attacker can perceive as valuable. Just the fact that a device could be in a test lab could make it a very interesting target. We've also already seen botnets comprised of IP camera's. In that case, even the feeble calculative horsepower of a tiny chip was considered a valuable enough target. In one infamous case, simply having a three letter Twitter handle was enough.

Of course, we're not even talking about issues like test results being compromised or even manipulated. There could be severe liability consequences.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on September 28, 2017, 09:39:45 am
About attacks happening only to high value targets I unfortunately have to disagree. Most people think they, their hardware or their information is not valuable enough, but experience has taught us that almost everyone has something an attacker can perceive as valuable. Just the fact that a device could be in a test lab could make it a very interesting target. We've also already seen botnets comprised of IP camera's. In that case, even the feeble calculative horsepower of a tiny chip was considered a valuable enough target. In one infamous case, simply having a three letter Twitter handle was enough.
I said that the kind of local scope attacks such as sophisticated wireless network attacks (which need a lot of resources to crack passwords) are more likely to be experienced by high value targets.

Random, indiscriminated attacks are a completely different story. People suffer this attacks regardless of the local network connection medium, attackers can be anywhere in the world and often the goal of the miscreants is to obtain resources for other attacks (for example, zombies for DDoS).

The devil is in the details.

Quote
Of course, we're not even talking about issues like test results being compromised or even manipulated. There could be severe liability consequences.
Indeed, just imagine a multimeter hacked so that it will display voltages higher than, say, 25 V as low voltage noise. It could cost actual lives.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on September 28, 2017, 09:52:46 am
I said that the kind of local scope attacks such as sophisticated wireless network attacks (which need a lot of resources to crack passwords) are more likely to be experienced by high value targets.

For bored punk every WiFi he can see in flat complex is high value target :-DD

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: exe on September 28, 2017, 11:31:06 am
I'd say protect your equipment as you never know all the possible scenarios of attacks. There might be a vulnerability (in e.g. Linux core) common to several classes of devices. And the scope can be infected "along the way"*. I can't evaluate the probability of this (perhaps, nobody can), but why put yourself into risk?

Or, if it's a university, students can do such things just for fun. Or hackers may start hunting for industrial equipment. Just think of Stuxnet.

So, keep it in DMZ with no Internet just in case :)

* I know that there might be compatibility issues. But, hey, everything is on ARM now, so that's not impossible. Or with shell scripting.

PS I work in security industry, so I can be biased :). It's also very easy to fall into "more protection is better" trap and "over-protect" your stuff.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on September 28, 2017, 11:37:35 am
PS I work in security industry, so I can be biased :). It's also very easy to fall into "more protection is better" trap and "over-protect" your stuff.
I've just ordered the new variant. No Ethernet, radiation hardened and IP67  :-DD
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 03, 2017, 11:40:10 pm
Has this device actually been released in the Chinese domestic market? It surprises me a bit that not a single video or any other user generated information or content has been posted to the internet.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on October 03, 2017, 11:48:02 pm
Has this device actually been released in the Chinese domestic market? It surprises me a bit that not a single video or any other user generated information or content has been posted to the internet.
Not sure.
The one I have has only a low 2 digit SN# so maybe only enough have been made to send to beta testers and reveal at trade shows.
The factory is on hols this week so after that we'd expect some new FW and then some more further checks before it's anywhere ready for release. ATM core functionality is pretty good.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: stj on October 04, 2017, 12:25:33 am
the chinese arent big utube addicts, they have there own streaming video hosts.
so there may be lots of stuff - you just cant see it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 04, 2017, 12:42:25 am
the chinese arent big utube addicts, they have there own streaming video hosts.
so there may be lots of stuff - you just cant see it.
I've managed to dig up fairly obscure stuff before, but in this case I'm drawing a blank.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: stj on October 04, 2017, 02:48:20 am
http://www.youku.com/ (http://www.youku.com/)

http://www.soku.com/search_video/q_siglent?f=1&kb=040200000000000__siglent&spm=a2hww.20023042.#qheader_search~10 (http://www.soku.com/search_video/q_siglent?f=1&kb=040200000000000__siglent&spm=a2hww.20023042.#qheader_search~10)
just examples.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Giuss on October 05, 2017, 07:43:53 pm
An news about avaiabilty in other markets?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 05, 2017, 07:45:38 pm
Will be Q1 2018
As soon as we get news or sample we will post
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 06, 2017, 07:50:12 am
Will be Q1 2018
As soon as we get news or sample we will post
Apparently it will be early Q1 2018, considering a comment has been made that release is much less than 6 months away. The end of Q1 was pretty much exactly 6 months away at that point, so it would have to be januari or februari at worst, but I would consider Valentines Day to be the boundary between much less and just under.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Gabri74 on October 06, 2017, 08:05:09 am
Will be Q1 2018
As soon as we get news or sample we will post

(Disclaimer: Italy-oriented question ;-) )
Hi Simone, do you think that for Italy it will be possible to preorder and pay before dicember 31st? Because I guess this DSO is elegible for Superammortamento/Industria4.0 concessions (for non italian people, those are a kind of una-tantum tax relief) ?

Tnx
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 06, 2017, 08:18:44 am
(Disclaimer: Italy-oriented question ;-) )
Hi Simone, do you think that for Italy it will be possible to preorder and pay before dicember 31st? Because I guess this DSO is elegible for Superammortamento/Industria4.0 concessions (for non italian people, those are a kind of una-tantum tax relief) ?

Tnx
I'm coming from the same angle. It would be beneficial for me to make the investment in 2017, although I could compensate a bit by advancing other expenditures.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Giuss on October 06, 2017, 09:01:57 am
I was thinking to buy a sds1202x-e or a ds1054z this week because I need it, but now I've seen this new model. I don't know what to do :)  If I need to wait 6 months, I'll buy another one
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 06, 2017, 09:06:30 am
I was thinking to buy a sds1202x-e or a ds1054z this week because I need it, but now I've seen this new model. I don't know what to do :)  If I need to wait 6 months, I'll buy another one
Here too I'm in the same boat. I've bought a Velleman WFS210 to bridge the gap, even though I know it cannot be compared to the two real oscilloscopes. I hope it will at least keep me going until the reviews for the SDS1204X-E start coming in.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: IAmBack on October 06, 2017, 09:53:27 am
I do not live in Italy, but I think you should ask this question to your tax authorities.
In my country the company can create a "pro forma invoice", but you can use this invoice to deduct VAT and can not use it to deduct income tax (maybe the opposite, i don't remember exactly, but this shows problems with a tax deduction).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 06, 2017, 02:59:07 pm
Will be Q1 2018
As soon as we get news or sample we will post

(Disclaimer: Italy-oriented question ;-) )
Hi Simone, do you think that for Italy it will be possible to preorder and pay before dicember 31st? Because I guess this DSO is elegible for Superammortamento/Industria4.0 concessions (for non italian people, those are a kind of una-tantum tax relief) ?

Tnx
I would say it is possible if they will not need the delivery note.
I will investigate with our admin office and come back to you.
Please be aware we are not informed about a release date at this moment.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Gabri74 on October 28, 2017, 10:25:28 am
Any news on availability in Europe/Italy? This french store already lists it (with wrong picture) and seems to accept preorders:

http://www.limpulsion.fr/art/SDS1204XE/SIGLENT__Oscilloscope_4x200_MHz_7_decodage (http://www.limpulsion.fr/art/SDS1204XE/SIGLENT__Oscilloscope_4x200_MHz_7_decodage)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 28, 2017, 10:48:44 am
Hmmm thanks for posting this. Very strange since Siglent doesn’t want to roll out the unit in EU before they have well tested it into the domestic market.
However we will check and post more official info when possible!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 28, 2017, 11:42:01 am
Just had a official reply from Siglent China. Public European launch date is planned for November the 26th.
At the moment there are not official info about quantity availability and pricing.
Keep you posted  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on October 28, 2017, 11:48:34 am
I wonder if Dave will get one to review before then ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 28, 2017, 11:58:58 am
we all love Dave videos ...  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 28, 2017, 02:33:40 pm
Any news on availability in Europe/Italy? This french store already lists it (with wrong picture) and seems to accept preorders:

http://www.limpulsion.fr/art/SDS1204XE/SIGLENT__Oscilloscope_4x200_MHz_7_decodage (http://www.limpulsion.fr/art/SDS1204XE/SIGLENT__Oscilloscope_4x200_MHz_7_decodage)
Wow, this unit has 14 MHz of memory!

Joking aside, I see it apparently has 1 GB/s per channel, which is nice. It's also what you'd want in a 200 MHz scope, but it's good the have that confirmed. It does seem to have less memory than a fully upgraded DS1054Z, which surprises me a bit. Other manufacturers seem to consistently have a lot less memory, despite the Rigols selling like hotcakes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 28, 2017, 03:51:47 pm
Any news on availability in Europe/Italy? This french store already lists it (with wrong picture) and seems to accept preorders:

http://www.limpulsion.fr/art/SDS1204XE/SIGLENT__Oscilloscope_4x200_MHz_7_decodage (http://www.limpulsion.fr/art/SDS1204XE/SIGLENT__Oscilloscope_4x200_MHz_7_decodage)
Wow, this unit has 14 MHz of memory!

Joking aside, I see it apparently has 1 GB/s per channel, which is nice. It's also what you'd want in a 200 MHz scope, but it's good the have that confirmed. It does seem to have less memory than a fully upgraded DS1054Z, which surprises me a bit. Other manufacturers seem to consistently have a lot less memory, despite the Rigols selling like hotcakes.

It can imagine like this: (even if construction is different but functionally like this)

It have 4 channels. Or is it better say 2 + 2 channel.

Channels 1 and 2 have one ADC and shared 14M memory.
Channels 3 and 3 have one ADC and shared 14M memory.

ADC is single channel 1GSa/s (internally interleaved 2 channels) and two channel both 500MSa/s

Case A
If what ever single channel is alone in use it have 1GSa/s and max 14M memory.

Case B
If all 4 channels or what ever 3 channels simultaneously in use all have 500MSa/s and all have 7M max memory length.

Case C
If in channel pair 1&2  is only one channel in use this channel have 1GSa/s and 14M max memory lenghth.

Case D
If in channel pair 3&4  is only one channel in use this channel have 1GSa/s and 14M max memory lenghth.

Case E 
Case C  and  Case D  (= two channels in use, both 1GSa/s and both 14M max mem)

Case F
If in channel pair (1&2 or 3&4) both channels are in use they have 500MSa/s max and 7M memory max.

500MSa/s is not enough for 200MHz sinewave when Sinc interpolation is used if we want accurate amplitude information and time window is short - as it need be short in oscilloscope. But it is as usable as 250MSa/s for 50MHz.  Good amplitude accuracy can typically reach if input frequency is fsample /5.

Here attached image how it looks typically with different sample frequency  vs input sinewave frequency.
2.5 means that (example) 200MHz input and sample frequency  200*2.5=500MHz (Msa/s)

Many peoples have heard that all is ok if fin is < fNyquist (this is how rules are misunderstooded). Top in image is fin = fNyquist/1.25


Attached image is not from Siglent SDS1204X-E
It is from some my own teaching material without all finnish language explanations.
(btw, also you can find Agilent-Keysight paper about "number 5 thumb rules")
bottom of image there is multiplier  5. (f sample is 5 times f signal)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 28, 2017, 03:54:49 pm
The French advert says 1 GS/s per channel. Having less than that would be a bit of a letdown, as using full speed and sampling would be less ideal. You've demonstrated nicely why.

We'll see :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 28, 2017, 04:07:34 pm
The French advert says 1 GS/s per channel. Having less than that would be a bit of a letdown, as using full speed and sampling would be less ideal. You've demonstrated nicely why.

We'll see :)

French can advert what ever but this is really not fair way how to go.  Also in this ad they link wrong data sheet ( SDS1202X-E data sheet)  in this advert and wrong image. Why they do this shit - unknown.

What I previously told is how it is and this is explained also in chinese data sheet and manual. But perhaps this french is not interested about fact checking = trumpth, not truth.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 28, 2017, 04:13:18 pm
French can advert what ever but this is really not fair way how to go.  Also in this ad they link wrong data sheet ( SDS1202X-E data sheet)  in this advert and wrong image. Why they do this shit - unknown.

What I previously told is how it is and this is explained also in chinese data sheet and manual. But perhaps this french is not interested about fact checking = trumpth, not truth.
Fair enough. Information from a seller with MHz for memory size shouldn't be taken at face value.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on October 28, 2017, 04:16:35 pm
Here attached image how it looks typically with different sample frequency  vs input sinewave frequency.
2.5 means that (example) 200MHz input and sample frequency  200*2.5=500MHz (Msa/s)

Many peoples have heard that all is ok if fin is < fNyquist (this is how rules are misunderstooded). Top in image is fin = fNyquist/1.25

Attached image is not from Siglent SDS1204X-E
bottom of image there is multiplier  5. (f sample is 5 times f signal)
Seems more like using a crap scope on purpose to support nonsense. It is well known sinc/x reconstruction works well for frequencies little over fs/2.5. See the attached picture (sampling mode with infinite persistence on):
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=364927;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 28, 2017, 05:14:57 pm
Here attached image how it looks typically with different sample frequency  vs input sinewave frequency.
2.5 means that (example) 200MHz input and sample frequency  200*2.5=500MHz (Msa/s)

Many peoples have heard that all is ok if fin is < fNyquist (this is how rules are misunderstooded). Top in image is fin = fNyquist/1.25

Attached image is not from Siglent SDS1204X-E
bottom of image there is multiplier  5. (f sample is 5 times f signal)
Seems more like using a crap scope on purpose to support nonsense. It is well known sinc/x reconstruction works well for frequencies little over fs/2.5. See the attached picture (sampling mode with infinite persistence on):
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=364927;image)




Yes with better scopes where Sinc filter parameters are better. It depends...
(Also it looks that chinese GoodWill have ok.)

Example this.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=364939;image)

Between images cable changed due to bad BNC connector.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=364941;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: alreadystarted on October 28, 2017, 08:34:13 pm
I hope they fix the typo 1 Ga/s on the nameplate before production:/
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: EEVblog on October 29, 2017, 12:10:44 am
How bode plot was made? Does it come with a built-in 30MHz signal generator?

Yes but the FG is an option which is not particularly cheap because it's an external box:

(https://i.imgur.com/kDA2lZG.png)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: EEVblog on October 29, 2017, 12:15:16 am
The 4 channel models will have WiFi and Webserver. This way you can replicate and command the unit from a PC using the browser. and the IP address of the unit. Not bad for a entry level unit.

The WiFi is a paid option.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: EEVblog on October 29, 2017, 12:19:38 am
I wonder if Dave will get one to review before then ?

Yep, I'm getting one pre-release, 2nd week Nov.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 29, 2017, 12:59:02 am
Yep, I'm getting one pre-release, 2nd week Nov.
It's two channel sibling appears to have compensation issues that require the user to do a board level repair to fix. It might be interesting to see whether the four channel model has these issues too.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 29, 2017, 09:39:50 am
I hope they fix the typo 1 Ga/s on the nameplate before production:/

Do not worry.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=365143;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 29, 2017, 10:24:31 am
Because of sampling rate it may be possible Siglent will focus on the 100MHz on the 4ch version in EU.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 29, 2017, 11:37:26 am
Because of sampling rate it may be possible Siglent will focus on the 100MHz on the 4ch version in EU.

Why? Can you give some reasonings.

I think  well done Sinc interpolation together with 500MSa/s is enough for 200MHz. (of course these are based to sine waves, always)

You can see here 500MSa/s is enough. Just  Reply #97 in this thread yesterday.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1335055/#msg1335055 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1335055/#msg1335055)

But I'm interested to listen your opinion and reasoning.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 29, 2017, 11:46:34 am
About the 2 channels Siglent brought the 200MHz X-E only to EU. In China is also available 100MHz.
It is a commercial consideration only. I agree with you the 200MHz 4ch spec are good too.
We will discover this in 2 weeks.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 29, 2017, 12:04:27 pm
About the 2 channels Siglent brought the 200MHz X-E only to EU. In China is also available 100MHz.
It is a commercial consideration only. I agree with you the 200MHz 4ch spec are good too.
We will discover this in 2 weeks.

Yes, domestic market in China is different.
We can see there many other Siglent equipments models than here in outside China markets.
Example 1074X-E, 1104X-E and 1204X-E
Same  also with two channel models.
Noted also that inputs are not direct copy from 2 channel models. 2 channel models input capacitance 18pF and 4 channel models 15pF.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: exe on October 29, 2017, 01:30:45 pm
Why?

Because real signals are often not sine and bandwidth does not abruptly stop at 200MHz. There are details like small ringing, etc that will be washed out with too low sampling rate.

Same for bandwidth: more bandwidth == less amplitude distortion (and more picked noise). And scopes normally have more bandwidth than advertised.

So, I don't see the reason why there "must" be any relation between bandwidth and sampling rate. Each parameter independently improves capturing. What makes sense to me is to have a "balanced" solution in terms of BW, sampling rate and price.

Interestingly enough, oscilloscopes of the past used to have a different BW / Rate ratio. Like, a 500MHz scope with just 1Gsa/s. Not anymore nowadays. May be because it was not a sweet price point, or that scopes relied on "equivalent" sampling.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 29, 2017, 02:31:30 pm
Why?

Because real signals are often not sine and bandwidth does not abruptly stop at 200MHz. There are details like small ringing, etc that will be washed out with too low sampling rate.

Same for bandwidth: more bandwidth == less amplitude distortion (and more picked noise). And scopes normally have more bandwidth than advertised.

So, I don't see the reason why there "must" be any relation between bandwidth and sampling rate. Each parameter independently improves capturing. What makes sense to me is to have a "balanced" solution in terms of BW, sampling rate and price.

Interestingly enough, oscilloscopes of the past used to have a different BW / Rate ratio. Like, a 500MHz scope with just 1Gsa/s. Not anymore nowadays. May be because it was not a sweet price point, or that scopes relied on "equivalent" sampling.

Bandwidth mean sinewave bandwidth of course.

If people have NOT sinewave signal what base frequency is 200MHz and he use 200MHz BW oskilloscope and he think or wants  he must also see these harmonics or other over 200MHz components in signal he is just telling he need more lessons.
It is essential to understand basics before start using tools. Even if tool is hammer or oscilloscope or particle accelerator.
200MHz oscilloscope is not for measure or display right at all even 1Hz signal if it means example 1Hz square wave and need measure its frequency components up to example 1GHz for measure its rising edge.


Oscilloscopes mostly have gaussian type BW shape.

Perhaps 200MHz nameplate sscope -3dB point ( input BNC) is example something between 200 to 250MHz. -6dB perhaps 230 - 280MHz or something like this.

It is not first time when I tell that instead of hack scope for more wide BW it is perhaps more wise to modify these for rejected BW specially so that BW shape is more like brickwall type than slow decay gaussian. Just for avoid aliasing what is many times lot of under estimated and poorly understood thing.

And this must say. 500MSa/s 200MHz oscilloscope is really easy with signals what have over 250MHz frequency components in signal under test and it leads aliasing and this is math, it is not oscilloscope brand. User need understand how to avoid these traps and not be fooled by scope screen or displayed numbers in these cases. This need knowledge and experience (as all things need).
Also due to Sinc interpolation parameter compromises some not so nice things start more or less below fNyquist.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: exe on October 29, 2017, 03:09:15 pm
And this must say. 500MSa/s 200MHz oscilloscope is really easy with signals what have over 250MHz frequency components in signal under test and it leads aliasing and this is math, it is not oscilloscope brand. User need understand how to avoid these traps and not be fooled by scope screen or displayed numbers in these cases.

This is why I disable interpolation and I prefer scopes with faster sampling -- I don't want see artifacts of interpolation.

So, I didn't get it if you are agree with me or not, but I stand my ground. Faster sampling is better. More BW is better (if you can limit it when full BW is not needed to avoid noise pickup, my scope can do this).

Perhaps, extra samples may help reducing interpolation errors, too.


Perhaps 200MHz nameplate sscope -3dB point ( input BNC) is example something between 200 to 250MHz. -6dB perhaps 230 - 280MHz or something like this.

SDS1202X-e, for example, has more than 300MHz, afaik. So, reasoning based on assumption this is a 200MHz scope is just wrong.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 29, 2017, 03:56:39 pm


SDS1202X-e, for example, has more than 300MHz, afaik. So, reasoning based on assumption this is a 200MHz scope is just wrong.

My Tektronix nameplate read 150MHz and it is stated also in data sheet. Its measured -3dB point is around 250MHz.  It can easy show and trig far over 500MHz signal. "Assumption" it is 150MHz oscilloscope is wrong? Tektronix have told it is 150MHz oscilloscope. They need not tell how wrong it display over this nameplate frequency. It is user education problem and nothing more.
Nameplate 150MHz do not violate anything and it is right.  It is user problem if he insert over 150MHz signal and then displayed result is too far away from some kind of more os less imagined or known "truth".
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on October 29, 2017, 06:15:08 pm
Perhaps 200MHz nameplate sscope -3dB point ( input BNC) is example something between 200 to 250MHz. -6dB perhaps 230 - 280MHz or something like this.

SDS1202X-e, for example, has more than 300MHz, afaik. So, reasoning based on assumption this is a 200MHz scope is just wrong.
No it's not, sure it will display 300+ MHz but greatly attenuated.
A quick check I did a couple of months back on SDS1202X-E:
Recent -3dB point check using freshly acquired HP 500 MHz sig gen.

10 mV source signal, BNC connection through Tek 1:1 50 ohm BNC inline feedthrough.
Slight discrepancy in frequency measurements but despite this indicates the -3dB point is ~240 MHz.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-'official'-siglent-sds1202x-e-thread/?action=dlattach;attach=347766;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on October 29, 2017, 06:29:42 pm
Perhaps 200MHz nameplate sscope -3dB point ( input BNC) is example something between 200 to 250MHz. -6dB perhaps 230 - 280MHz or something like this.
SDS1202X-e, for example, has more than 300MHz, afaik. So, reasoning based on assumption this is a 200MHz scope is just wrong.
What counts is the -3dB point referenced to a relatively low frequency like somewhere between 100kHz and 10MHz. Any oscilloscope will show signals with frequencies above it's nameplate bandwidth because it doesn't have a brickwall input filter. You also have to be aware that there are many more things which attenuate a signal between the probing point and the input of the ADC in the oscilloscope. The actual high frequency content of a signal from a regular probe will be attenuated way more then the signal from a signal generator. As a rule of thumb you need 50 Ohm inputs and special (low-Z probes for example) to measure signals over 100MHz accurately because regular probes load these signals too much. The discussion here is kinda moot anyway.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TD-Linux on October 30, 2017, 12:58:47 am
The choice of sampling rate vs bandwidth is mostly an engineering and cost optimization question. You only need 2x the bandwidth in terms of sample rate in order to accurately reproduce a band limited signal. The difficulty is band-limiting it, which must be done by an analog filter. A sharper filter is more expensive to implement, and introduces additional noise and non-linearity. So instead, you can use a gentler filter and sample at a higher rate so that the attenuation of the filter at half the sample rate is acceptable. Then you apply the rest of the filtering via a software low pass filter to get a sharp passband (or at least you would in audio).

I think a lot of scopes skip out on the last software filtering step because engineers would rather have lower-than-expected response at high frequencies rather than none at all.

As long as Siglent has sharp enough analog filters, there should be no problem with 200MHz across all four channels. It would be good to test for aliasing with all four channels enabled though, in case they didn't.

If you aren't familiar with digital sampling, I'd suggest watching Monty's video on the subject: https://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TimInCanada on October 30, 2017, 04:00:16 am
Interestingly enough, oscilloscopes of the past used to have a different BW / Rate ratio. Like, a 500MHz scope with just 1Gsa/s. Not anymore nowadays. May be because it was not a sweet price point, or that scopes relied on "equivalent" sampling.

For the all-time winner of BW/Sampling rate ratio, I nominate the HP 54610B (http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1000001431%3Aepsg%3Apro-pn-54610B/20-msa-s-500-mhz-2-channel-oscilloscope?cc=US&lc=eng): 500 MHz / 20MSa/s.  25:1.  Beat that!   :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 30, 2017, 05:52:24 am
Interestingly enough, oscilloscopes of the past used to have a different BW / Rate ratio. Like, a 500MHz scope with just 1Gsa/s. Not anymore nowadays. May be because it was not a sweet price point, or that scopes relied on "equivalent" sampling.

For the all-time winner of BW/Sampling rate ratio, I nominate the HP 54610B (http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1000001431%3Aepsg%3Apro-pn-54610B/20-msa-s-500-mhz-2-channel-oscilloscope?cc=US&lc=eng): 500 MHz / 20MSa/s.  25:1.  Beat that!   :-+

Tektronix 7854  800:1
(400MHz BW  with  0.5MSa/s 10 bit digitizer and waveform calculator.)

But, is it better to separate real time (single shot) and many kind of repetitive systems. Even with 1Hz sampler you can 1GHz and this is not limit. Only reconstruction time is limit.

I think good  "Rule of thumb" for real time scopes with well implemented Sinc interpolation is: BW max f  = fsample/2.5  or (fNyquist /1.25 = max BW)

In theory we can go more close and even up to (fNyquist but oscilloscope need fast step response so we can not take lot of samples and then calculate (filter). Sinc  interpolation filter what give acceptable level accuracy with 2.5 samples for one sine cycle is good compromise.

In well done oscilloscope: User can always select interpolation mode Sinc or vectors - and due to good education user know how to use these and how to read screen. And also there must be true interpolation off or on. (dots/lines) (not as some scopes do in dot modes they generaate fake dots between sample points. This is most stupid what I have seen if this feature can not turn off or least turn real sample points highlight on if scope have this fake dots total stupidity.
It also need be possible as post processing with stored acquisitions (example oscilloscope stopped  or for stored segments or normal running waveform buffer.  If oscilloscope do not draw Sinc  via true sampled points enough accurate it can say it is made for garbage collection.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 30, 2017, 06:31:44 am
Please guys, can we talk about the new scope?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 30, 2017, 06:33:24 am
Please guys, can we talk about the new scope?

At this time we do not have new scope. Only rumors that it exist. ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 30, 2017, 06:45:22 am
waiting mode engaged
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 30, 2017, 06:57:53 am

At this time we do not have new scope. Only rumors that it exist. ;)
Dave had some good intel.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 30, 2017, 07:16:16 am

At this time we do not have new scope. Only rumors that it exist. ;)
Dave had some good intel.
He is not alone.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 30, 2017, 07:33:11 am
He is not alone.
Spill the beans!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on October 30, 2017, 07:54:48 am
He is not alone.
Spill the beans!
There's only so much as beta testers we can tell.....NDA and all that.  :-X

But you can glean quite a lot from translating the Chinese datasheet and user manual.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on October 30, 2017, 08:11:21 am
I wonder if Dave will get one to review before then ?

Yep, I'm getting one pre-release, 2nd week Nov.
Do you know if it will be fully optioned Dave ?
WiFi, AWG and Digital pod ?

I've only used the AWG as the Wifi dongle and digital pod weren't shipped with my unit.  :(
Any of the Siglent AWG's can be controlled with the UI so you can use the Bode plot feature.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 31, 2017, 08:55:24 am
some fun on a working day waiting for the SDS1204X-E, Happy Halloween!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Giuss on October 31, 2017, 12:05:03 pm
Can't wait to see Dave's preview or review and also to know the price in EU
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 31, 2017, 04:13:57 pm
Siglent has removed the SDS1102X from the European stock and promo. This may show a possible overlap of pricing with the upcoming SDS1104X-E  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 31, 2017, 05:53:21 pm
Siglent has removed the SDS1102X from the European stock and promo. This may show a possible overlap of pricing with the upcoming SDS1104X-E  :popcorn:

And what is your information source?

Siglent official  European web side:

http://siglenteu.com/qyxwxx.aspx?id=3926&sid=210 (http://siglenteu.com/qyxwxx.aspx?id=3926&sid=210)
As long as they keep this info in official web side I think it is valid. But, of course this may change sooner or later. Then we live with this new info.

Batronix. Also tell offer continue until Dec 31. As far as I know they have followed official Siglent EU GmbH information.

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1102X.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1102X.html)

I keep this information valid until I get official different information from Siglent.
Officially Siglent do not give public information about end date Dec 31. Only they tell: "Don’t wait - this deal won’t last long!"


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 31, 2017, 05:58:38 pm
My info is confirmed by Siglent website. In fact the SDS1102X is not here anymore http://siglenteu.com/m/newsxq.aspx?id=3926 (http://siglenteu.com/m/newsxq.aspx?id=3926)
You will see this happening in all distributors website soon.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 31, 2017, 06:02:55 pm
My info is confirmed by Siglent website. In fact the SDS1102X is not here anymore http://siglenteu.com/m/newsxq.aspx?id=3926 (http://siglenteu.com/m/newsxq.aspx?id=3926)
You will see this happening in all distributors website soon.

I am distributor. ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 31, 2017, 06:07:49 pm
Good  :D
You will see I’m not wrong  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 31, 2017, 07:22:15 pm
Good  :D
You will see I’m not wrong  :-+

Yes but current information at this time is as previously have been and is today.
After new official information free for public, then we give official information as it is. ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 01, 2017, 08:25:33 am
Official information from Siglent.  1.11.2017
Siglent (Siglent Technologies Europe GmbH) do not stock SDS1102X model anymore.

------------------------------------------------

General storylines:
And this is NOT alone about just Siglent. There is many.

What I have never understood, not yesterday, not today and not tomorrow.
Change from 8" display to 7" displays. Even more bad now after SDS1000X-E series have also 4 channel models.
I understand it with price. But also can ask, why go to tight price competition with cheapest bottoms. Look for what ever equipment, from dmm to TV sets and bicycles. Who believe cheapest win and get best total profit.

Example I with my own eyes have very severe problems with 7" TFT in oscilloscope with very tiny text information on screen, looks like no one have designed it - only just drop out from slapdash hands something. After these boys and girls who design these things come to over 40, 50, 60... eyes adaptation to different distances change and also eyes accuracy other ways may decay.  Example here in Finland is lot of professionals and really lot of (proportionally to population) hobbyists who are over 50 years and I can easy find over 80 years electronics hobbyists who still are buying new modern equipments.  This is because here we have been deep inside electronics very long time. But these new things are designed  for youths with good well adaptive eyes etc. This is wrong road. All we know that around of world we have more and more older peoples who also do lot of things and activities after 60 and 70 years. They have hobbies, they are even working. But things are designed for more and more younger peoples. This is paradoxal phenomena. Who manufacturer understand this today he can win later. This is fact in many area of goods and things. Also money is there. China is bit different with these technical things because electronics development there is so so young. Ten years ago in China I ask where I can find electronics hobbyists. Peoples did not even understand what I askl. Today is different but there my mutual opinion is, hobbyists average age is far lower than here in western  countries.  This is what we also can see in chinese design.

Lets hope next economy price model is minimum 8" display or better if 10" and with full separate controls and good  designed and professionally finished UI. Starting from fonts and ending how encoders work and how keyboard feel and work and what are ergonomic positions of controls. This part of design need most high level knowledge and hard-core experience and knowledge about human psycho-physical "features and specifications".


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on November 01, 2017, 10:32:33 am
This problem is long fixed with USB scopes / logic analyzers. Also newer standalone scopes often have webpage type interface that may work quite well. You have to be very oldschool or masochist doing something requiring lots of fine detail with these inbuilt postcards. Postcard-only scopes are for hobbyist feel-good and room decoration + simple tasks requiring good DPO performance - direct replacement for CRO.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 01, 2017, 10:38:07 am
Nice marketing statement to promote USB scope ...  :--
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on November 01, 2017, 10:49:13 am
This is reality. If eye strain is concern - large IPS monitor is basically only option. If you have watched Keysight interview with Dave it was also voiced that devices w/o physical inbuilt GUI are future.
I have lots of USB gear from various brands exactly for this reason - ultra portable & no eye strain. However they do have other drawbacks and in fact I will get some postcard device in future for specific tasks. Its all about picking right tool for the job.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 01, 2017, 10:52:09 am
I still like the romance of buttons and knobs ... but yes big large screens are nice and damn expensive!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Loboscope on November 01, 2017, 11:16:50 am
Also in bottom-line scopes it should be easy and not expensive to add an up-to-date HDMI or DVI- connection. Doing so would allow the user to add a simple and low-cost monitor if he wants or needs a bigger screen.  This would be a nice combination to maintain a small and bench-place saving scope and to have a bigger screen whenever it is needed.
It could be so simple and acceptable cheap.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 01, 2017, 11:18:01 am
This problem is long fixed with USB scopes / logic analyzers. Also newer standalone scopes often have webpage type interface that may work quite well. You have to be very oldschool or masochist doing something requiring lots of fine detail with these inbuilt postcards. Postcard-only scopes are for hobbyist feel-good and room decoration + simple tasks requiring good DPO performance - direct replacement for CRO.

Personally I use only bunch of separate stand alone equipment's. And I want to use. Maybe I'm old school masochist. If so,  I'm proud of this experience and position. All do not have this possibility.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on November 01, 2017, 11:32:30 am
Personally I use only bunch of separate stand alone equipment's. And I want to use. Maybe I'm old school masochist. If so,  I'm proud of this experience and position. All do not have this possibility.

Of course, for example I prefer cars with free breathing high rev boxer engine and manual gearbox. Also not all have this possibility. I'm quite proud to have this and also some experience driving formula cars including F1 and so on. However this is all very separate issue from what is efficient transportation and what future brings for us in general.

BTW here F1 of scopes - 100GSa/s realtime, notice screen size (just FYI postcard) and how it is actually used:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/yet-another-fast-edge-pulse-generator/?action=dlattach;attach=361767;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 01, 2017, 11:33:08 am
Also in bottom-line scopes it should be easy and not expensive to add an up-to-date HDMI or DVI- connection. Doing so would allow the user to add a simple and low-cost monitor if he wants or needs a bigger screen.  This would be a nice combination to maintain a small and bench-place saving scope and to have a bigger screen whenever it is needed.
It could be so simple and acceptable cheap.
A huge screen isn't really helpful if it's a tiny resolution.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Hydron on November 01, 2017, 12:13:29 pm
I find there are benefits and drawback to both the USB & Buttons/Knobs type of instrument. The latter is nicer to use when poking around a circuit trying to find a problem, the former has advantages using a big screen for analysis, as well as being much more portable (assuming you're already taking a laptop!).

What I do agree with is that the screen size/resolution of most stuff out there is a bit pathetic. Given the price you can buy a cheap 1080p+ tablet for, having a max of 7-8" @ 800*480 as standard for almost all test equipment in the hobbyist budget range is really poor (though some manufacturers are a bit stuck with existing ASICs I guess). Going from using a DS1054Z screen to a RTB2004 (with 10" 1280*800) was a huge usability upgrade, but the latter was only really "affordable" (still ~6 times the cost of the rigol) due to the extreme launch discount.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 01, 2017, 12:22:35 pm
This is reality. If eye strain is concern - large IPS monitor is basically only option. If you have watched Keysight interview with Dave it was also voiced that devices w/o physical inbuilt GUI are future.
I have lots of USB gear from various brands exactly for this reason - ultra portable & no eye strain. However they do have other drawbacks and in fact I will get some postcard device in future for specific tasks. Its all about picking right tool for the job.
With touchscreen becoming the standard the 'traditional' equipment is likely to have less and less buttons. At some point you could have a USB analog frontend connected to a tablet and operate it from there. I don't like needing a PC to operate a scope because it is too cumbersome to deal with installing software.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 01, 2017, 12:27:33 pm
nctnico this is a very good point. Back to the tread let see how the Siglent unit will handle the external signal generator.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 01, 2017, 12:29:28 pm
With touchscreen becoming the standard the 'traditional' equipment is likely to have less and less buttons. At some point you could have a USB analog frontend connected to a tablet and operate it from there. I don't like needing a PC to operate a scope because it is too cumbersome to deal with installing software.
A tablet doesn't need less effort to install things.

Besides, a physical interface is hard to replace. You can have all the touch screens in the world, reaching for a knob while looking at a circuit will always be easier when it's a physical knob. Touch screens inevitably require your visual attention.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on November 01, 2017, 12:46:10 pm
reaching for a knob while looking at a circuit

::)

will always be easier when it's a physical knob. Touch screens inevitably require your visual attention.

Exactly - little knobbed device very good if all attention on poking circuit. Game changes if circuit/device just sitting there and all attention to analyzing comms or some delicate analog process. But here I do not get touchscreen at all. Mouse = microscopic wrist movements. Touchscreen = waving hands around. Not efficient. However touchscreen inevitable because new generation likes to touch. Main thing still to implement keyb/mouse support (secretly from marketing if needed) :P
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 01, 2017, 12:48:58 pm
With touchscreen becoming the standard the 'traditional' equipment is likely to have less and less buttons. At some point you could have a USB analog frontend connected to a tablet and operate it from there. I don't like needing a PC to operate a scope because it is too cumbersome to deal with installing software.
A tablet doesn't need less effort to install things.

Besides, a physical interface is hard to replace. You can have all the touch screens in the world, reaching for a knob while looking at a circuit will always be easier when it's a physical knob. Touch screens inevitably require your visual attention.
Am I missing something here? On an oscilloscope you need to look at the screen anyway :o I dare to say that adjusting anything on an oscilloscope will be combined with looking at the screen.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 01, 2017, 05:41:04 pm
Am I missing something here? On an oscilloscope you need to look at the screen anyway :o I dare to say that adjusting anything on an oscilloscope will be combined with looking at the screen.
It would be convenient if you hands weren't in the way, then ;D

Obviously, some controls are very well suited for a touch screen, while others are much more suited for physical interface. There is a reason a Surface Pro still comes with physical keyboard and even a touch pad. Feedback can be vital for the ease of use.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 01, 2017, 06:56:04 pm
Back to the tread let see how the Siglent unit will handle the external signal generator.
Why ?
Both the SDS1*04X-E USB AWG option and stand-alone SDG's work fine for Bode plot usage. USB or LAN control for SDG's.
In Bode plot mode the scope UI controls and sets the AWG values to be used with Bode plot.
There are default Bode plot values within the scope UI but they can be altered to suit your needs. Eg. different sweep frequencies, Voltage etc.
One scope channel must be used for the reference and any of the other 3 can be selected for the Bode plot trace.
Performance is improved if one channel is selected from each channel group. Eg. 1+3, 2+4 etc.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 01, 2017, 06:59:04 pm
Why?
Because I'm curious to see it working ...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 01, 2017, 07:41:38 pm
Why?
Because I'm curious to see it working ...
Connectivity and a settings summary is shown in the blank portion on the very top of the display just as it's done with SDS2kX and 1kX+ and the AWG is 'driven' with the option softkeys just like with the mentioned models.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 01, 2017, 07:46:02 pm
all fine thanks, I just want to play with the unit asap
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on November 02, 2017, 01:25:30 pm
There are default Bode plot values within the scope UI but they can be altered to suit your needs. Eg. different sweep frequencies, Voltage etc.

So for example with SDG2122X 0-120MHz sweep and scope will do automatic switching to get high dynamic range also? No silly limitations, real deal?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 02, 2017, 02:32:44 pm
There are default Bode plot values within the scope UI but they can be altered to suit your needs. Eg. different sweep frequencies, Voltage etc.

So for example with SDG2122X 0-120MHz sweep and scope will do automatic switching to get high dynamic range also? No silly limitations, real deal?
You'll have to wait a couple more weeks to see all the detail, but some little overview.

When you setup the swept range, the Bode plot horizontal scaling is adjusted to suit. Start and stop limits can be set. The screenshot in the OP is typical of what you see with the phase shift as the fainter trace.
For a large frequency range, the sweep can take some time to calculate and display all the trace but using the 2 ASIC's (1&3 or 2&4 ch's) speeds things up heaps. Yes you can select the channel the Bode plot is performed on/with.
Much depends on the filter you want to sweep as it will have a target frequency so you might first sweep it over a wide frequency range just to check and then narrow the sweep to what will better suit frequencies of interest.
It can take a while (5s) to get through to 1 MHz then it flies.

TBH I haven't gone looking for max frequencies it can manage as I have only 30 MHz available ATM.

When Dave gets one I imagine he'll have a good look at Bode plots to follow on from a vid he did on them some time back.

Edit
From the Chinese website:
(http://www.siglent.com/Chinese_website2014/picture/SDS1000X-E/18.png)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on November 02, 2017, 02:37:56 pm
Ok thanks, lets wait and see. Some video popped up not sure if it has been around before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBF-MjImmA8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBF-MjImmA8)

Edit: Can spot some little room for improvement with phase table:
- good practice is to right-align numbers with fix amount of decimal places and keep decimal point at const place, then can move ?Hz to table header
- phase should also have fix no of decimal places, not fix total of no. Currently seems that large phase will have accuracy artificially reduced

All fixed:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=366590)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 02, 2017, 06:20:46 pm
Don't get too excited about bode plotting at high frequencies. A real network analyser has the ability to create a reference sweep and go from there for a very good reason!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on November 02, 2017, 06:43:12 pm
Don't get too excited about bode plotting at high frequencies. A real network analyser has the ability to create a reference sweep and go from there for a very good reason!

If I understand correctly this uses 2 channel generator method like I used with my DIY math based bode plotting experiments (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/picoscope-2000/msg1298871/#msg1298871). Most differences not related to DUT should cancel out.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 02, 2017, 07:38:11 pm
Don't get too excited about bode plotting at high frequencies. A real network analyser has the ability to create a reference sweep and go from there for a very good reason!

If I understand correctly this uses 2 channel generator method like I used with my DIY math based bode plotting experiments (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/picoscope-2000/msg1298871/#msg1298871). Most differences not related to DUT should cancel out.
Yes, one scope channel is indeed the Ref channel and is not displayed at all until you leave Bode plot mode and return to normal scope mode. Ref is Ch2 in the image above.
Unless you have DUT BNC's, you need BNC to test clip leads (one for each side of DUT) and a BNC Tee to split the AWG signal sweep for DUT and scope Bode Ref input.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 02, 2017, 09:45:45 pm
This all just asks for a thorough review. I'm curious what'll pop up.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 13, 2017, 01:35:13 am
The second week of November is almost over, so we must be getting close to hearing more. If we're lucky, it might even be later this week :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 17, 2017, 11:37:16 pm
Spotted on Daves Twitter page:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOtorD4XUAAnYAm.jpg)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 17, 2017, 11:45:39 pm
He mentioned receiving it in yesterday's video too. Why haven't you watched that yet? Well!?  ;D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 18, 2017, 12:12:40 am
He mentioned receiving it in yesterday's video too. Why haven't you watched that yet? Well!?  ;D
Been away, still catching up.  :-[
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: stj on November 18, 2017, 01:22:17 am
i want to see it run oscillofun or beams of light.

that seems like a good way to see how fast it plots in XY mode.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 18, 2017, 08:56:30 pm
I hope to get the delivery this week or max next week.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Gabri74 on November 19, 2017, 11:08:35 am
This Ukrainian site has it on preorder (with obligatory wrong picture...  :palm:  ), 200MHz version for about 560€ (+VAT):

http://gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html (http://gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html)

English google translation:

https://translate.google.it/translate?hl=it?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html (https://translate.google.it/translate?hl=it?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 19, 2017, 11:30:47 am
We have now pages without pricing for 100MHz and 200MHz plus all options.
It is not clear yet if the WiFi dongle is included or optional.
We should get pricing and add them to the website hopefully by tomorrow.
Units (on limited availability) hopefully on 1 or 2 weeks.
I try to add as many info we can as quick as possible  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 19, 2017, 09:59:32 pm
This Ukrainian site has it on preorder (with obligatory wrong picture...  :palm:  ), 200MHz version for about 560€ (+VAT):

http://gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html (http://gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html)

English google translation:

https://translate.google.it/translate?hl=it?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html (https://translate.google.it/translate?hl=it?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html)
560 euro plus VAT is nearing 700 euro, or maybe over 700 euro delivered. I'm not seeing a DS1054Z killer just yet.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 20, 2017, 07:13:58 am
This Ukrainian site has it on preorder (with obligatory wrong picture...  :palm:  ), 200MHz version for about 560€ (+VAT):

http://gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html (http://gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html)

English google translation:

https://translate.google.it/translate?hl=it?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html (https://translate.google.it/translate?hl=it?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html)
560 euro plus VAT is nearing 700 euro, or maybe over 700 euro delivered. I'm not seeing a DS1054Z killer just yet.

You compare prices with old Riglol DS1054Z and SDS1204X-E.  Do you really think you compare apple with apple.

200MHz vs 50MHz (hacked 100MHz)

500MSa/s all 4 channels on vs 250MSa/s
1GSa/s for two channels vs 500MSa/s for 2 channels on.
real full resolution 500uV/div vs 5mV/div real full resolution
Always background real time running waveform history buffer. vs nothing
Fast sequence acquisition (aka segmented memory acq)  vs some kind of slow frame recorder.
Full speed mask test vs crap slow mask test (with false statistics die to different speed with pass or fail state)
1M FFT  vs  16kt(?) FFT
Much more fast UI
Professional grade Sin(x)x interpolation vs total crap fake Sin(x)/x
True full current memory length and full sample resolution measurements vs measurements from highly decimated display data. (very extremely poor time resolution with slower time bases)

and more...

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 20, 2017, 07:26:26 am

560 euro plus VAT is nearing 700 euro, or maybe over 700 euro delivered. I'm not seeing a DS1054Z killer just yet.
There will be the 100MHz version too (SDS1104X-E) which will be cheaper.
Tomorrow we will all know pricing  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: cbc02009 on November 20, 2017, 10:12:40 am

560 euro plus VAT is nearing 700 euro, or maybe over 700 euro delivered. I'm not seeing a DS1054Z killer just yet.
There will be the 100MHz version too (SDS1104X-E) which will be cheaper.
Tomorrow we will all know pricing  :popcorn:

https://smile.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1104X-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B0771N1ZF9/

found this on amazon, is this the correct model and price?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 20, 2017, 10:27:53 am
it seems right but some mistake on the description like the 16 channels (not really available)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 20, 2017, 10:33:11 am

https://smile.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1104X-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B0771N1ZF9/

found this on amazon, is this the correct model and price?
It's the 100 MHz version and the seller is Siglent USA so maybe they know something the rest of don't.  :-//
Barebones unit with zero options though.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 20, 2017, 10:38:53 am
16 channels option is not mentioned into the data sheet
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 20, 2017, 10:59:37 am

You compare prices with old Riglol DS1054Z and SDS1204X-E.  Do you really think you compare apple with apple.

200MHz vs 50MHz (hacked 100MHz)

500MSa/s all 4 channels on vs 250MSa/s
1GSa/s for two channels vs 500MSa/s for 2 channels on.
real full resolution 500uV/div vs 5mV/div real full resolution
Always background real time running waveform history buffer. vs nothing
Fast sequence acquisition (aka segmented memory acq)  vs some kind of slow frame recorder.
Full speed mask test vs crap slow mask test (with false statistics die to different speed with pass or fail state)
1M FFT  vs  16kt(?) FFT
Much more fast UI
Professional grade Sin(x)x interpolation vs total crap fake Sin(x)/x
True full current memory length and full sample resolution measurements vs measurements from highly decimated display data. (very extremely poor time resolution with slower time bases)

and more...
The DS1054Z has a proven track record and a community surrounding it. You can't just match it, you need to beat it convincingly to take the throne. Hacked or not doesn't matter, as everyone takes the 50 MHz DS1054Z base model to be a 100 MHz model with decoding anyway.

Maybe the 100 MHz Siglent SDS1204X-E can be hacked into 200 MHz. That would change things. Let's see what actual prices come up :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: epongenoir on November 20, 2017, 11:41:16 am
16 channels option is not mentioned into the data sheet

I agree with you about the MSO option, but even the Amazon product image shows the MSO traces in the image.. Which is rather strange!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 20, 2017, 11:45:03 am
Oh Wow! Now I'm confused :)
I like this kind of triller/ambiguos product launch!
Maybe the HDMI port will carry a MSO logic probe too?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on November 20, 2017, 11:46:25 am
This Ukrainian site has it on preorder (with obligatory wrong picture...  :palm:  ), 200MHz version for about 560€ (+VAT):

http://gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html (http://gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html)

English google translation:

https://translate.google.it/translate?hl=it?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html (https://translate.google.it/translate?hl=it?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html)
560 euro plus VAT is nearing 700 euro, or maybe over 700 euro delivered. I'm not seeing a DS1054Z killer just yet.

You compare prices with old Riglol DS1054Z and SDS1204X-E.  Do you really think you compare apple with apple.

200MHz vs 50MHz (hacked 100MHz)

500MSa/s all 4 channels on vs 250MSa/s
1GSa/s for two channels vs 500MSa/s for 2 channels on.
real full resolution 500uV/div vs 5mV/div real full resolution
Always background real time running waveform history buffer. vs nothing
Fast sequence acquisition (aka segmented memory acq)  vs some kind of slow frame recorder.
Full speed mask test vs crap slow mask test (with false statistics die to different speed with pass or fail state)
1M FFT  vs  16kt(?) FFT
Much more fast UI
Professional grade Sin(x)x interpolation vs total crap fake Sin(x)/x
True full current memory length and full sample resolution measurements vs measurements from highly decimated display data. (very extremely poor time resolution with slower time bases)

and more...
Yes, maybe a better specd scope with a higher price tag, but definitely not a killer
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: cbc02009 on November 20, 2017, 11:48:52 am

https://smile.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1104X-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B0771N1ZF9/

found this on amazon, is this the correct model and price?
It's the 100 MHz version and the seller is Siglent USA so maybe they know something the rest of don't.  :-//
Barebones unit with zero options though.

So it doesn't come with the USB waveform generator that is pictured on the siglent chinese website? that's a shame  :(
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 20, 2017, 11:51:50 am
No this is optional:
- hardare Siglent SAG1021
- software Siglent SDS1000X-E-FG
some description fro the Chinese data sheet:
SDS1000X-E accesses the 25MHz USB Arbitrary Waveform Generator module via USB Host. It integrates sine wave, square wave, triangle wave, pulse wave, noise, DC and 45 built-in Arbitrary Waveforms. Users can also edit arbitrary waveform by EasyWave PC software.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on November 20, 2017, 11:52:15 am

https://smile.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1104X-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B0771N1ZF9/ (https://smile.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1104X-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B0771N1ZF9/)

found this on amazon, is this the correct model and price?
It's the 100 MHz version and the seller is Siglent USA so maybe they know something the rest of don't.  :-//
Barebones unit with zero options though.
And with only 2 probes?????

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=371936;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on November 20, 2017, 11:54:10 am
Oh Wow! Now I'm confused :)
I like this kind of triller/ambiguos product launch!
Maybe the HDMI port will carry a MSO logic probe too?
Are you serious?  Confusing / misleading the buyers is a good product launch strategy?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 20, 2017, 11:56:02 am
The public launch date is not there yet, all those info can be slightly correct or wrong. Also sellers are not informed with official statements yet.
All will come tomorrow.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Performa01 on November 20, 2017, 11:58:24 am
Now that you already have a nice picture of the scope, take a guess what the small Sbus connector (next to the USB host port) is intended for? ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 20, 2017, 11:58:47 am
560 euro plus VAT is nearing 700 euro, or maybe over 700 euro delivered. I'm not seeing a DS1054Z killer just yet.
You compare prices with old Riglol DS1054Z and SDS1204X-E.  Do you really think you compare apple with apple.

That wasn't the question. The question was: "DS1054Z killer?"

200MHz vs 50MHz (hacked 100MHz)

500MSa/s all 4 channels on vs 250MSa/s
1GSa/s for two channels vs 500MSa/s for 2 channels on.
real full resolution 500uV/div vs 5mV/div real full resolution
Always background real time running waveform history buffer. vs nothing
Fast sequence acquisition (aka segmented memory acq)  vs some kind of slow frame recorder.
Full speed mask test vs crap slow mask test (with false statistics die to different speed with pass or fail state)
1M FFT  vs  16kt(?) FFT
Much more fast UI
Professional grade Sin(x)x interpolation vs total crap fake Sin(x)/x
True full current memory length and full sample resolution measurements vs measurements from highly decimated display data. (very extremely poor time resolution with slower time bases)

and more...

If that's the case then why hasn't Keysight already killed the DS1054Z with their 1000 series?

Because:
a) That stuff is mostly meaningless to the average buyer
b) $300 more!

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 20, 2017, 12:02:45 pm
Now that you already have a nice picture of the scope, take a guess what the small Sbus connector (next to the USB host port) is intended for? ;)
right, from the Chinese data sheet:

4-Channel Family Support, Siglent Logic Analyzer Interface

still not part number for the logic probe
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Giuss on November 20, 2017, 12:33:50 pm
I think that 700 eur is too high for it, because the two channels version (and also the Rigol) costs about 400 eur. I hope in a lower price range
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 20, 2017, 08:01:18 pm

https://smile.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1104X-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B0771N1ZF9/ (https://smile.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1104X-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B0771N1ZF9/)

found this on amazon, is this the correct model and price?
It's the 100 MHz version and the seller is Siglent USA so maybe they know something the rest of don't.  :-//
Barebones unit with zero options though.
And with only 2 probes?????
Yeah, that can't be right.....maybe an error by those listing it.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 20, 2017, 10:00:47 pm
When does the NDA get lifted?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 20, 2017, 11:56:29 pm
When does the NDA get lifted?
For those of us that are involved with beta testing, 4 years.
However once released the unit and 'release' firmware is in the public domain.
Our beta reports remain confidential, all fair enough IMO.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 21, 2017, 12:34:19 am
For those of us that are involved with beta testing, 4 years.
However once released the unit and 'release' firmware is in the public domain.
Our beta reports remain confidential, all fair enough IMO.
I can understand that internal testing information remains confidential. However, I'm more interested in the date that reviewers and I guess testers are allowed to speak about their experiences with the released device.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 21, 2017, 01:06:17 am
For those of us that are involved with beta testing, 4 years.
However once released the unit and 'release' firmware is in the public domain.
Our beta reports remain confidential, all fair enough IMO.
I can understand that internal testing information remains confidential. However, I'm more interested in the date that reviewers and I guess testers are allowed to speak about their experiences with the released device.
Of course.

Once it's officially released we can share any operational details as we're the ones that have had probably the most experience with usage.
It's basic functionality is identical to the 200 MHz SDS1202X-E although AFAIK beta testers and Dave have only the 100 MHz versions. The Search, Navigate, inbuilt browser (PC control) and Bode plot features are what stand it apart from the 2 ch X-E.

Whoever does reviews need have some experience with advanced features to properly demonstrate what these units can do. They're quite a step up from the 2 ch X-E's.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Old Printer on November 21, 2017, 03:55:00 am
I am watching this with keen interest. I have been really focused on electronics as a hobby for the last year, though I have dabbled in it most of my life (64). I have a couple old Teks (475 & 2225), but I really wanted to  play with a digital with its ability hold and capture signals, particularly slow ones. And I like scopes :). Almost bought a 1054Z but decided instead on a new Analog Discovery 2. I really like it, particularly as I am interested learning digital logic too. It is really a Swiss Army Knife electronics learning tool, but also I saw some changes coming, maybe, in the $4-500 4 channel scope market. This Siglent seems like the first salvo, and having the AD2 I am no longer rushed for a digital scope. It would be great to see 2 or 3 manufactures battle it out :). Dave
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 21, 2017, 04:01:14 am
I am watching this with keen interest. I have been really focused on electronics as a hobby for the last year, though I have dabbled in it most of my life (64). I have a couple old Teks (475 & 2225), but I really wanted to  play with a digital with its ability hold and capture signals, particularly slow ones. And I like scopes :). Almost bought a 1054Z but decided instead on a new Analog Discovery 2. I really like it, particularly as I am interested learning digital logic too. It is really a Swiss Army Knife electronics learning tool, but also I saw some changes coming, maybe, in the $4-500 4 channel scope market. This Siglent seems like the first salvo, and having the AD2 I am no longer rushed for a digital scope. It would be great to see 2 or 3 manufactures battle it out :). Dave
I'm very keen to see the answer of Rigol. Are they going to cash in their reputation, or are they going toe to toe with Siglent for the budget king title? I guess it at least in part depends on the pricing Siglent decides upon. The ball is in Siglent's court now.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: EEVblog on November 21, 2017, 04:47:41 am
When does the NDA get lifted?

Launch is 26th Nov.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 21, 2017, 01:13:27 pm

https://smile.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1104X-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B0771N1ZF9/ (https://smile.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1104X-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B0771N1ZF9/)

found this on amazon, is this the correct model and price?
It's the 100 MHz version and the seller is Siglent USA so maybe they know something the rest of don't.  :-//
Barebones unit with zero options though.
And with only 2 probes?????

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=371936;image)
Siglent has made one data sheet only for both 2 and 4 channels.
The oscilloscope will come with one probe per channel so 2 or 4.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: StillTrying on November 21, 2017, 06:32:53 pm
They might have the options wrong, the number of probes wrong, and the width and height mixed up, but at least they've weighed it very accurately.  >:D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 21, 2017, 06:34:03 pm
ahahah nice one!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 21, 2017, 07:20:31 pm
This is the full option list:

SDS1000X-E-FG: Software For SAG1021 and Siglent standalone AWG control
SAG1021: HW 25 MHz Function/Arbitrary Waveform Generator

SDS1000X-E-16LA: MSO function software for SDS1000X-E oscilloscope, 16 channel, 500 MSa/s, 14 Mpts
SLA1016: MSO function hardware for SDS1000X-E oscilloscope, 16 channel, 500 MSa/s, 14 Mpts

SDS1000X-E-WIFI: Software wireless communication function; 802.11b/g/n-WPA-PSK
TL-WN725N: Hardware wireless communication function; 802.11b/g/n-WPA-PSK

No retail pricing as yet.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: JPortici on November 21, 2017, 07:20:51 pm
hi simone, i just saw the batterfly email. must say i'm very tempted
still no info on the AWG?

i wonder how it will compare to the DSOX-1102G (i mean in the real world, i can compare "datasheets")
especially the FRA part, if you can really change amplitude + offset it's a potential winner :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 21, 2017, 07:25:16 pm
Price available online from the 27th, all new PDF material already online.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 21, 2017, 07:29:16 pm
hi simone, i just saw the batterfly email. must say i'm very tempted
still no info on the AWG?
pricing online from the 27th ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: SaKhan on November 22, 2017, 09:31:28 am
Hi guys,
Greetings from Switzerland. I've been following the forum for quite a while and I finally decided to register as I am after a 4 channel oscilloscope and I'm watching this thread very closely. Based on the rumoured prices the difference between the 100 and 200 Mhz models seems to be quite big. Can someone tell me if Siglent have any plans in allowing the upgrade of the bandwidth? It would be pity if all that decent hardware is permanently limited to 100 Mhz without any options for upgrade what so ever. Alex
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 22, 2017, 10:27:21 am
Hi guys,
Greetings from Switzerland. I've been following the forum for quite a while and I finally decided to register as I am after a 4 channel oscilloscope and I'm watching this thread very closely. Based on the rumoured prices the difference between the 100 and 200 Mhz models seems to be quite big. Can someone tell me if Siglent have any plans in allowing the upgrade of the bandwidth? It would be pity if all that decent hardware is permanently limited to 100 Mhz without any options for upgrade what so ever. Alex
Welcome to the forum.

There will be 2 models, SDS1104X-E (100 MHz) and a 200 MHz version, SDS1204X-E.
To date Siglent have not offered purchasable BW upgrades and for this class of DSO I suspect they won't.

But, this forum is famous for sharing info on hacks and a few of which have been applied to Siglent equipment.
Of course any factory Calibration certificate will not be valid when an instrument is hacked and that will matter to some owners.
However we know some will try, why, because they can.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 22, 2017, 10:38:41 am
hi simone, i just saw the batterfly email. must say i'm very tempted
still no info on the AWG?

i wonder how it will compare to the DSOX-1102G (i mean in the real world, i can compare "datasheets")
especially the FRA part, if you can really change amplitude + offset it's a potential winner :)
About AWG, do you mean info about pricing or tech data?
Tech data are available on the data sheet and user manual. Public pricing on the 27th, very limited availability (maybe few pcs) till Xmas.
Not sure if I will be able to make a video with the AWG before Xmas, but Dave may do it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: SaKhan on November 22, 2017, 06:09:37 pm
Should we expect any reviews before the NDA is lifted?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 22, 2017, 06:23:53 pm
Should we expect any reviews before the NDA is lifted?
Not unless the reviewers want to wait until they are for sale next time.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Microcheap on November 22, 2017, 08:32:09 pm
I just spotted, Batronix is listing the SDS1104X-E at 510 eur and SDS1204X-E 784 eur vat. included

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html)
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/SDS1204X-E.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/SDS1204X-E.html)

But the rigol 1054z is now cheaper, 379 eur.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 22, 2017, 08:37:06 pm
Wow...launch date is scheduled for November the 27th, they were fast ...
Yes price are correct.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 22, 2017, 08:45:34 pm
The 100 MHz version is listed as a two channel version, though.

At these prices I guarantee you it's not going to be a DS1054Z killer. The 100 MHz version is over 25% more expensive than an easily upgraded DS1054Z and the 200 MHz model is almost double. Even if it's quicker and has some features the Rigol hasn't, it's going to be a tough sell. There's a reason the Rigol is popular and it's not because it's a flawless oscilloscope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 22, 2017, 08:51:54 pm
You maybe right, in fact the most of the request (with us) since yesterday are about the 200Mhz. But if the 100MHz will become hackable then it will be a different story!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 22, 2017, 08:57:44 pm
You maybe right, in fact the most of the request (with us) since yesterday are about the 200Mhz. But if the 100MHz will become hackable then it will be a different story!
I'm sure there will be a market for them, but I think it won't displace the DS1054Z. If the thing becomes hackable, then yes, it'll much more of a competitor.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: alreadystarted on November 22, 2017, 08:58:24 pm
The 100 MHz version is listed as a two channel version, though.

At these prices I guarantee you it's not going to be a DS1054Z killer. The 100 MHz version is over 25% more expensive than an easily upgraded DS1054Z and the 200 MHz model is almost double. Even if it's quicker and has some features the Rigol hasn't, it's going to be a tough sell. There's reason the Rigol is popular and it's not because it's a flawless oscilloscope.

I agree.  Amazon in the US is listing the 100MHz version (https://www.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1104X-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B0771N1ZF9) at $499.  Which is arguably superior to a hacked DS1054Z ($400, current sale $350) based on specs, but with a $150 premium it's not clear the value is there.

Some kind of launch promo for the 200MHz package including the MSO option for like $650 would present some real value though.  I hope they consider something like that.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 22, 2017, 09:05:39 pm
It is almost Xmas and we have a nice oscilloscopes fight in place :)
It is nice to see so many new features in such segment and what will bring Rigol next!!!
Great time to be a electronic lover :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 22, 2017, 09:09:36 pm
It is almost Xmas and we have a nice oscilloscopes fight in place :)
It is nice to see so many new features in such segment and what will bring Rigol next!!!
Great time to be a electronic lover :)
Yeah, as stated before, I'm very curious how Rigol will respond to this. They have plenty to lose and should have the funds to pull a rabbit out of the hat.

Let's also not forget that engineers would have killed for one of these tools not too long ago. It's amazing what the progress of technology brings us.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Old Printer on November 22, 2017, 09:30:17 pm
Not sure if I am reading this right but Saelig seems to be offering the 1054Z for $349 and adding the Option BND-MSO/DS1000Z - Serial Decode-Record Mode-Long Memory and Advanced Triggering. I think it is the hack, but it would be nice to have it legit.
Tequipment is now showing this as well, no mention of the 100Mhz part. Is this Rigol's response to the Siglet 4ch scope? Or are they lowering stock in advance of something new. If so, they have kept it pretty quiet so far.
Dave
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 22, 2017, 09:33:50 pm
It is almost Xmas and we have a nice oscilloscopes fight in place :)
It is nice to see so many new features in such segment and what will bring Rigol next!!!
Great time to be a electronic lover :)
Yeah, as stated before, I'm very curious how Rigol will respond to this. They have plenty to lose and should have the funds to pull a rabbit out of the hat.
I think Rigol can lower the price because they have no engineering expenses anymore. For example: the DS1054Z currently costs $349 at Tequipment.net and they have over 1100 in stock at the moment. They are probably going to do good business during the upcoming holidays.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Digby on November 22, 2017, 09:39:04 pm
This will be released in the US on Monday, according to a Siglent rep.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Hydron on November 22, 2017, 09:42:25 pm
Assuming that there aren't any major gotchas, I think that the alleged improvements over the Rigol would be worth the money, even at 100MHz vs a hacked DS1054Z.

The DS1000Z series is really not satisfactory at 100MHz with more than 2 channels enabled, or at low signal levels, or when using the FFT - I especially had issues with the first 2, and they were factors in my decision to upgrade to a (launch-promo) RTB2004. That said, the DS1054Z is still at an amazing price for those with very tight budgets, and will do the job for many - I was never unhappy about buying mine!.

Given the free serial decodes (particularly important for us), I'll be suggesting at work that we grab one of the Siglents (hopefully I can nudge them towards the 200MHz option). As we can't really hack Rigol options when using them commercially, once you add the serial decoding option the price difference basically disappears even if you don't want the 100MHz bandwidth.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 22, 2017, 09:52:40 pm
Assuming that there aren't any major gotchas, I think that the alleged improvements over the Rigol would be worth the money, even at 100MHz vs a hacked DS1054Z.

The DS1000Z series is really not satisfactory at 100MHz with more than 2 channels enabled, or at low signal levels, or when using the FFT - I especially had issues with the first 2, and they were factors in my decision to upgrade to a (launch-promo) RTB2004. That said, the DS1054Z is still at an amazing price for those with very tight budgets, and will do the job for many - I was never unhappy about buying mine!.

Given the free serial decodes (particularly important for us), I'll be suggesting at work that we grab one of the Siglents (hopefully I can nudge them towards the 200MHz option). As we can't really hack Rigol options when using them commercially, once you add the serial decoding option the price difference basically disappears even if you don't want the 100MHz bandwidth.
IMHO there is a big difference between the hobbyist market (where the DS1054Z seems to have set the price benchmark) and scopes for commercial use. For commercial use you need a scope which is much better polished, tested and documented than what Rigol or Siglent push out of their factories. Dealing with bugs, measurement errors and unclear documentation will simply cost money in a commercial environment. Been there, done that, lesson learned. A commercial environment puts a lot more demands on a piece of equipment than a hobby lab.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Hydron on November 22, 2017, 10:12:49 pm
Well, most of the time it's software engineers using them to look at a slow I2C bus without bothering with ground clips! Cheap does the job in that case, as long as the memory depth is enough and there is the decode option.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: SaKhan on November 22, 2017, 11:09:12 pm
Assuming that there aren't any major gotchas, I think that the alleged improvements over the Rigol would be worth the money, even at 100MHz vs a hacked DS1054Z.

The DS1000Z series is really not satisfactory at 100MHz with more than 2 channels enabled, or at low signal levels, or when using the FFT - I especially had issues with the first 2, and they were factors in my decision to upgrade to a (launch-promo) RTB2004. That said, the DS1054Z is still at an amazing price for those with very tight budgets, and will do the job for many - I was never unhappy about buying mine!.

Given the free serial decodes (particularly important for us), I'll be suggesting at work that we grab one of the Siglents (hopefully I can nudge them towards the 200MHz option). As we can't really hack Rigol options when using them commercially, once you add the serial decoding option the price difference basically disappears even if you don't want the 100MHz bandwidth.
IMHO there is a big difference between the hobbyist market (where the DS1054Z seems to have set the price benchmark) and scopes for commercial use. For commercial use you need a scope which is much better polished, tested and documented than what Rigol or Siglent push out of their factories. Dealing with bugs, measurement errors and unclear documentation will simply cost money in a commercial environment. Been there, done that, lesson learned. A commercial environment puts a lot more demands on a piece of equipment than a hobby lab.
As with any other equipment for commercial use, a company should evaluate several different options and choose the most appropriate one without relying on the vendor's reputation. That's valid for both hardware and software. Anyway in this hobbyist price range I don't quite get the business logic behind having the same hardware and selling upgrade keys for half of the device price. In the Siglent's case I find the SDS-1104X-E price quite fair however they are asking somewhat too much for the 200 Mhz model. I think most people will buy the cheaper model because of budget constraints and/or in the hope of it eventually getting hacked. I also don't think that Rigol will come up with a similar hardware for a lot less in the next year.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 23, 2017, 12:51:01 am
IMHO there is a big difference between the hobbyist market (where the DS1054Z seems to have set the price benchmark) and scopes for commercial use. For commercial use you need a scope which is much better polished, tested and documented than what Rigol or Siglent push out of their factories. Dealing with bugs, measurement errors and unclear documentation will simply cost money in a commercial environment. Been there, done that, lesson learned. A commercial environment puts a lot more demands on a piece of equipment than a hobby lab.
I know of people who use the DS1054Z in a rather serious lab and development setting. They obviously aren't going to generate vital performance report with the instrument, but if it's enough for doing the odd job, it's enough.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Diabolo on November 23, 2017, 02:13:30 am
Hello,

For anyone who knows that Rigol can be hacked he can find the price Siglent 1104X-E and 1204X-E high, but for those who do not know that Rigol can be hacked then for him the price Siglent is correct.
One must think before saying that 1104X-E and 1204X-E Siglent is expensive!
As for hacker Siglent 1104X-E in 1204X-E, you will have to wait a long time if the 2 models are different internally!

In my opinion.
Diabolo
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 23, 2017, 02:21:19 am
Hello,

For anyone who knows that Rigol can be hacked he can find the price Siglent 1104X-E and 1204X-E high, but for those who do not know that Rigol can be hacked then for him the price Siglent is correct.
One must think before saying that 1104X-E and 1204X-E Siglent is expensive!
As for hacker Siglent 1104X-E in 1204X-E, you will have to wait a long time if the 2 models are different internally!

In my opinion.
Diabolo
If it were a regular consumer product like a mobile phone, sure. However, an oscilloscope is generally used by people who tinker with equipment one way or another. Moreover, the popularity of the DS1054Z can in no small part be attributed to the possibility of hacking it into a better model. Taking all this into account, it wouldn't be really correct to look at it as if the hack doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: JPortici on November 23, 2017, 06:39:16 am
The 100 MHz version is listed as a two channel version, though.

At these prices I guarantee you it's not going to be a DS1054Z killer. The 100 MHz version is over 25% more expensive than an easily upgraded DS1054Z

yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes
but if you really NEED the 100 MHz you'd know you WANT to have the 1 GS/s per channel in 2 channel modes or 500 MS/s in 4 channel mode
the decoder that doesn't use data from screen buffer to decode
the possibility to attach an AWG in the future, which can work with the scope
and maybe you want to look at canbus too?

if you want to put in terms of 25% more money, you get a scope that's 100% better when used at its fullest.
500MS/s vs 250MS/s per channel. that's 100% more.
14Mpts vs 6 Mpts per channel. that's more than 100% more
also CAN/LIN instead of the usuals only, call it whatever percent more
without even mentioning the rest of the wall of text..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 23, 2017, 08:45:10 am
yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes
but if you really NEED the 100 MHz you'd know you WANT to have the 1 GS/s per channel in 2 channel modes or 500 MS/s in 4 channel mode
the decoder that doesn't use data from screen buffer to decode
the possibility to attach an AWG in the future, which can work with the scope
and maybe you want to look at canbus too?

if you want to put in terms of 25% more money, you get a scope that's 100% better when used at its fullest.
500MS/s vs 250MS/s per channel. that's 100% more.
14Mpts vs 6 Mpts per channel. that's more than 100% more
also CAN/LIN instead of the usuals only, call it whatever percent more
without even mentioning the rest of the wall of text..
If we're going to be honest, very few people actually need those 100 MHz, let alone 200 MHz capabilities. If you absolutely needed those, you'd likely be looking at a different class of oscilloscopes. This is about an entry level oscilloscope for entry level people, or more advanced people with relatively simple needs. You can cram all the features in the world in there, the question is whether this specific group will care enough about them to lay out another $100, or even close to $450. Four channel scope versus four channel scope. Screen buffer? What's that?

If this thing would cost a little less, or the 200 MHz version would be more affordable, it would be much more of an open and shut case. They're not making it easy for people to side with the Siglent.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: JPortici on November 23, 2017, 08:55:52 am
not really, your typical MCU GPIO has a sufficienly fast risetime that can cause signal integrity problems if you want to use higher speed SPI peripherals for example.
your average hobbyist want to play with audio dacs, with canbus and other things that you may find advanced but really aren't, just need proper tools and understanding
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2017, 09:20:07 am
if you want to put in terms of 25% more money, you get a scope that's 100% better when used at its fullest.

Only to you.

Most of that "wall of text" is just that, a wall of text. Gobbledygook to most of the hobby world.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 23, 2017, 09:25:28 am
Only to you.

Most of that "wall of text" is just that, a wall of text. Gobbledygook to most of the hobby world.
One thing hobbyists understand well is that larger numbers are better. However, the 200 MHz model so much more expensive, that they'll start wondering whether 200 MHz is twice as good as 100 Mhz.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: stj on November 23, 2017, 09:57:55 am
something not mentioned, at that price it also has to start competing with used pro-gear on ebay.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 23, 2017, 10:24:24 am
not really, your typical MCU GPIO has a sufficienly fast risetime that can cause signal integrity problems if you want to use higher speed SPI peripherals for example.
That doesn't matter. As long as the frequency you are looking at doesn't exceed the bandwidth limitations of the scope then you will get a signal into the oscilloscope you can use for decoding. If you want to look at signal integrity issues you'll probably need a >500MHz scope and probes which don't load the signals too much otherwise you won't get a meaningfull measurement.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Hydron on November 23, 2017, 11:46:14 am
I'll be happy if it doesn't do this if you have 3+ channels enabled and you feed it something with fast edges:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372810)
For reference, the same thing on a faster tek scope, with 150MHz limit on for as similar a bandwidth as I can easily manage (also averaging, but this only changed the trace noise):
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372814)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 23, 2017, 11:54:33 am
The Rigol will reduce the sampling rate whenever you activate more channels. It's a well known limitation.

In your sceeenshots it's sampling at only 250 MSa/s and capturing just 30 points. With so little information, the Sin(x)/x interpolation does that.

Switch the display mode to "dots" instead of "vectors" and you'll see what the A/D converter is actually sampling.

The Tek is sampling at 5 Gsa/s according to the datasheet. And its seems it's really _per channel_.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Hydron on November 23, 2017, 12:09:34 pm
I understand all this, I was just pointing out the limitation of the cheapest option, and that signal integrity can be an issue due to the compromises made.
That said, I'm surprised just how poorly it deals with the Sin(x)/x interpolation when running close to nyquist (it also looks nearly as bad with Sin(x)/x off, including the pre-shoot etc).
I would be very interested to see a similar test made on the Siglent 200MHz (it may have already been done somewhere in another thread) - at 200MHz/500MSa/s it's running at the same BW/sample rate ratio as the rigol is at 100MHz/250MSa/s.

The tek is indeed running at 5Gsa/s per channel - I included the reference to show that the source was actually nice and square to begin with. I also know that it's not the 50R feedthrough causing issues, as I tested it on the tek running in 1M mode.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 23, 2017, 12:12:23 pm
I understand all this, I was just pointing out the limitation of the cheapest option, and that signal integrity can be an issue due to the compromises made.
That said, I'm surprised just how poorly it deals with the Sin(x)/x interpolation when running close to nyquist. I would be very interested to see a similar test made on the Siglent 200MHz (it may have already been done somewhere in another thread) - at 200MHz/500MSa/s it's running at the same BW/sample rate ratio at the rigol at 100MHz/250MSa/s.
I own both, and Leo Bodnar's pulse generator. I'll capture some screenshots this evening if I have time.

Quote
The tek is indeed running at 5Gsa/s per channel - I included the reference to show that the source was actually nice and square to begin with. I also know that it's not the 50R feedthrough causing issues, as I tested it on the tek running in 1M mode.
But in this case it's a limitation due to the sampling rate. Switch to "dots" and you'll see the limited view the Rigol must deal with.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Hydron on November 23, 2017, 12:15:10 pm
My screenshots were done with Leo's generator also - it's a fun and handy bit of kit to have around.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2017, 01:25:48 pm
I understand all this, I was just pointing out the limitation of the cheapest option, and that signal integrity can be an issue due to the compromises made.

Sure, but have you compared that to other devices in this price range? It's not a valid criticism of the Rigol unless you do a side-by-side comparison with others.

I'm surprised just how poorly it deals with the Sin(x)/x interpolation when running close to nyquist (it also looks nearly as bad with Sin(x)/x off, including the pre-shoot etc).

Sin(x)/x isn't magic, it's a theoretical thing that only works perfectly if you apply it to every sample in the entire waveform (which obviously no oscilloscope can do).

What you see on the Rigol isn't a bug, it's exactly what the math says will happen if you only apply Sin(x)/x to a few samples on either side of the pixel of interest.

Assuming the Siglent will be better than this might backfire on you. The 200MHz model has the exact same ratio of samples to bandwidth as the Rigol.

...if you have 3+ channels enabled

Another red herring. With more channels enabled the Rigol reduces the sample rate so this is expected behavior, predicted by the math.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Hydron on November 23, 2017, 02:43:02 pm
What you see on the Rigol isn't a bug, it's exactly what the math says will happen if you only apply Sin(x)/x to a few samples on either side of the pixel of interest.

Assuming the Siglent will be better than this might backfire on you. The 200MHz model has the exact same ratio of samples to bandwidth as the Rigol.
I did say that it would be interesting to see how the Siglent does at the same ratio - this isn't exactly assuming it's better! It sounds like borjam will be doing this test under the same conditions as I did with the Rigol, which is excellent (and might help with the choice between the 100MHz and 200MHz models).
I understand that Sin(x)/x artifacts are unavoidable due to the sample rate/bandwidth ratio, rather than being a Rigol issue, but was surprised at just how bad they were when I did the test (and that some pre-shoot remained even after turning it off).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 23, 2017, 02:56:39 pm
I understand all this, I was just pointing out the limitation of the cheapest option, and that signal integrity can be an issue due to the compromises made.

Sure, but have you compared that to other devices in this price range? It's not a valid criticism of the Rigol unless you do a side-by-side comparison with others.

I'm surprised just how poorly it deals with the Sin(x)/x interpolation when running close to nyquist (it also looks nearly as bad with Sin(x)/x off, including the pre-shoot etc).

Sin(x)/x isn't magic, it's a theoretical thing that only works perfectly if you apply it to every sample in the entire waveform (which obviously no oscilloscope can do).

What you see on the Rigol isn't a bug, it's exactly what the math says will happen if you only apply Sin(x)/x to a few samples on either side of the pixel of interest.

Assuming the Siglent will be better than this might backfire on you. The 200MHz model has the exact same ratio of samples to bandwidth as the Rigol.

...if you have 3+ channels enabled

Another red herring. With more channels enabled the Rigol reduces the sample rate so this is expected behavior, predicted by the math.

In Rigol it is bug or better say, design error when they implement Sinc filter.
Violating simpliest rule: Draw via real sampled points.
But no, Riglol flush these to garbage.  They have started this math error many years ago first with DS1052E and never corrected.

It was proofed with DS1052E and data can still find from blog history, perhaps.
They repeat same kind of bug again with DS1054Z. 

One example can find here. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/msg563621/#msg563621)

Rigol do not listen anybody. Perhaps they think "who cares" because sales is ok. They care sales, it same if they sell chickens ( I wonder why they do not, perhaps profit is even better) or osciolloscopes. Who cares if sales is ok.

Personally I have not seen this kind of fake in any other oscilloscope, never and I have really some experience.  Take Tek, take what ever Keysight - Agilent - HP, LeCroy,  take what ever chinese Owon, chinese GoodWill, or as far as I know what ever other <long list>  than Rigol you can not find this bug.

One nice bug in Rigol is junk mask test. Speed depends test result. Oh well, then you write down how many times test pass and fail (you read these counters).  Then you show your statistics and first who know this bug can shoot down your statistics to garbage. Also this is small thing but... again. This is test and measurement equipment. Not entertainment TV (or is it - just for fun play).

But because I am biased (1% *), because my side hobby is also selling things and not only doing real work and hobby with electronics I do not add more things here.

*) My main interest is hobby and work. only < 1% income have any relation with selling Siglent or what ever (exept when I sell myself). But, yes I'm biased, but owners who hate or fall in love with some equipments they are of course totally free from any kind of bias (buuhh...) - as can see here..  ;)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 23, 2017, 03:23:09 pm
Come on guys, can we for once have a low budget scope thread without the same discussion yet again? We know how you feel, we don't need to hear it again.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 23, 2017, 04:34:53 pm
Exactly! We have a limited number of 100Mhz. Write me in PM if you are interested so we can give priority to this forum.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 23, 2017, 05:23:05 pm
What you see on the Rigol isn't a bug, it's exactly what the math says will happen if you only apply Sin(x)/x to a few samples on either side of the pixel of interest.
AFAIK other people have already proven that the way sin(x)/x interpolation is implemented on the DS1054Z is wrong and thus makes a signal look worse than it should be.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2017, 06:03:24 pm
What you see on the Rigol isn't a bug, it's exactly what the math says will happen if you only apply Sin(x)/x to a few samples on either side of the pixel of interest.
AFAIK other people have already proven that the way sin(x)/x interpolation is implemented on the DS1054Z is wrong and thus makes a signal look worse than it should be.

Yes, but that's not really the question. We know you love to bash Rigol, etc., but the real question is if any of the others are better, right?

I'll start you off with the GW Instek 1000B. This is an oscilloscope which is often held up as a beacon of correctness around here but guess what?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SXZk2tsQ4g&t=34m30s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SXZk2tsQ4g&t=34m30s)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 23, 2017, 06:16:46 pm
What you see on the Rigol isn't a bug, it's exactly what the math says will happen if you only apply Sin(x)/x to a few samples on either side of the pixel of interest.
AFAIK other people have already proven that the way sin(x)/x interpolation is implemented on the DS1054Z is wrong and thus makes a signal look worse than it should be.
Yes, but that's not really the question.  question is if any of the others are better, right?
Ofcourse the other ones are better! sin(x)/x is the industry standard method to do signal reconstruction on digital oscilloscopes for decades. It is well documented so there is absolutely no reason to do it wrong. I don't know any DSO which does sin(x)/x wrong except for the DS1054Z.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2017, 06:47:49 pm
Ofcourse the other ones are better! sin(x)/x is the industry standard method to do signal reconstruction on digital oscilloscopes for decades. It is well documented so there is absolutely no reason to do it wrong.

Well that proves it then! Nobody else could possibly fail so long as it's written down somewhere!!

I don't know any DSO which does sin(x)/x wrong except for the DS1054Z.

Except... it doesn't really do it wrong. That's just a thing in Rigol hater's imaginations.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/msg563621/#msg563621 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/msg563621/#msg563621)

Sin(x)/x works perfectly on the the DS1054Z when it's turned on. The signal only aliases when you turn it off.

Question: What sane person would turn it off? The whole point is to see reconstructed signals on screen.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 23, 2017, 07:02:45 pm
Ofcourse the other ones are better! sin(x)/x is the industry standard method to do signal reconstruction on digital oscilloscopes for decades. It is well documented so there is absolutely no reason to do it wrong.
Well that proves it then! Nobody else could possibly fail so long as it's written down somewhere!!
I don't know any DSO which does sin(x)/x wrong except for the DS1054Z.
Except... it doesn't really do it wrong. That's just a thing in Rigol hater's imaginations.
Look at the image Hydron posted earlier to see where you are wrong. That square wave shouldn't look like that at all. On the DS1054Z it looks like it has a serious amount of jitter which just isn't there. Look at a 40MHz square wave (with less than 60ps rise/fall times) which is equally far from the Nyquist frequency on a 200MHz 1Gs/s scope compared to the square wave Hydron shows on a DS1054Z:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372887;image)

BTW emphasizing on Rigol haters isn't going to make your point any stronger (quite the opposite). The facts are the facts and everyone has to make their own decission on whether they buy something or not.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Hydron on November 23, 2017, 07:42:15 pm
I suspect it is a combination of some >nyquist frequencies getting through the filter, and something odd going on with the reconstruction, though I don't have proof of the latter. That is why I am interested in how the Siglent does when running at 200MHz & 500MSa/s - for all I know it could have similar behavior!

Anyway, I was mainly trying to point out why the premium for the SDS1104X-E over the DS1054Z might be worth it even at 100MHz. Some will be fine with the cheaper Rigol; others will get better value going for something else. Sorry for not doing it more carefully - I think these cheap, accessible tools are great and while I pointed out a limitation in one, it was intended to be in the context of things to consider in making a purchasing decision, not as an attack!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2017, 07:50:28 pm
I suspect it is a combination of some >nyquist frequencies getting through the filter, and something odd going on with the reconstruction, though I don't have proof of the latter. That is why I am interested in how the Siglent does when running at 200MHz & 500MSa/s - for all I know it could have similar behavior!

Time will tell.

Anyway, I was mainly trying to point out why the premium for the SDS1104X-E over the DS1054Z might be worth it even at 100MHz.

Sure.

In other news: Some people need to fit five bales of hay in the back of their car so a Ford Fiesta isn't suitable for them.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 23, 2017, 08:45:42 pm
That is why I am interested in how the Siglent does when running at 200MHz & 500MSa/s - for all I know it could have similar behavior!
That's the same spec as the existing 2 ch SDS1202X-E.

Do remember that these 4 channel X-E's have the same inputs but doubled, 2 ADC's and 2 lots of 14 Mpts memory.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on November 23, 2017, 10:14:31 pm
What you see on the Rigol isn't a bug, it's exactly what the math says will happen if you only apply Sin(x)/x to a few samples on either side of the pixel of interest.

Nope. Implementation is not correct Sinc implementation. Direct proof: Impossible to determine analog bw of Rigol DS1052E with pulse gen method:
https://youtu.be/uBYMePUFinQ?t=20m43s
On normal scope this method works flawless and various ack modes and sampling rate have minimal effect on end result, if signal is repetitive and can be averaged.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Hydron on November 23, 2017, 10:25:28 pm
That's the same spec as the existing 2 ch SDS1202X-E.

Do remember that these 4 channel X-E's have the same inputs but doubled, 2 ADC's and 2 lots of 14 Mpts memory.
Yeah that's what I understood, I just haven't seen how the SDS1202X-E does in this situation either (info may be in another thread, I had a quick look but didn't see it). Are the display/interpolation algorithms unchanged between 2 and 4 channel versions?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 23, 2017, 10:32:01 pm
There we go. This is a Siglent SDS1202X-E with the coupling problem (not yet corrected).

Leo's pulse generator is connected to a T BNC connector, and the other end of the T has a BNC-SMA adapter and a 50 ohm terminator.

I have taken screenshots at 500 and 250 Msa/s. I have reduced the memory depth to the minimum and in order to go down to 250 Msa/s I have used a slower timebase. The screenshots have been taken with SINGLE trigger in all cases.

So here we have three sets of three files. 250 Msa/s, 500 Msa/s and 1 Gsa/s. For each one of them, a dots display, a vector display with sin(x)/x and a vector display with no sin(x)/x.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 23, 2017, 10:54:15 pm
Some Rigol ("upgraded" DS1074Z)

Interestingly, there is quite a lot of jitter at 500 and especially 200 Msa/s. I have made eye diagrams apart from the dots, sin(x)/x and no sin(x)/x.

(Corrected, at 500 Msa/s it's not jitter, but an artifact of reconstruction). However, I think there is a problem at 250 Msa/s, probably due to aliasing.

I would say that this scope has a very serious issue when sharing the A/D converter with more than one channel. The Siglent behaves much better.
Unless I have made any mistake, in which case I will be grateful for any corrections!


I would say that the Rigol has a serious aliasing problem at 250 Msa/s.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 23, 2017, 11:00:44 pm
And eye diagrams on the Siglent, 500 Msa/s.

Again, enabling and disabling sin(x)/x

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 23, 2017, 11:10:15 pm


I have taken screenshots at 500 and 250 Msa/s. I have reduced the memory depth to the minimum and in order to go down to 250 Msa/s I have used a slower timebase. The screenshots have been taken with SINGLE trigger in all cases.


Also you can do single shot and in stop mode you can switch between vector or Sinc interpolation or turn it to without interpolation - just dots. There you can see how it solve Sinc. (also Siglent do not draw extra fake dots as some other scopes may do in "dots" mode).  Reducing sample speed and using window zoom you may find some results where it can visually see more clearly.  In these images we can see there is also real  overshoots and not only Sinc made overshoots what are other things. (front end BW filtering do not have enough steep stop before Nyquist for reject aliasing.)

What is miss is: True sample dots highlight On/Off function  when Sinc or Vectors in use.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 23, 2017, 11:20:59 pm
Also you can do single shot and in stop mode you can switch between vector or Sinc interpolation or turn it to without interpolation - just dots. There you can see how it solve Sinc. (also Siglent do not draw extra fake dots as some other scopes may do in "dots" mode).  Reducing sample speed and using window zoom you may find some results where it can visually see more clearly.  In these images we can see there is also real  overshoots and not only Sinc made overshoots what are other things. (front end BW filtering do not have enough steep stop before Nyquist for reject aliasing.)

What is miss is: True sample dots highlight On/Off function  when Sinc or Vectors in use.
True.

Now I see that the Rigol draws fake dots when I enable or disable sin(x)/x, which is silly. Dots are dots, unless I am terribly wrong it should represent just A/D sampled values. Interpolation only makes sense in vector mode.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2017, 12:35:45 am
I overlaid the Rigol waveform on the Siglent waveform in a single image. As you can see they're identical when you view the wave with the same settings.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372960;image)

I would say that this scope has a very serious issue when sharing the A/D converter with more than one channel.

There's more than one channel enabled in the image above...  :popcorn:

The Siglent behaves much better.

There's a major difference: The Rigol drops down to 250Ms/sec when you turn on the third channel, the Siglent doesn't (because it's only 2 channels).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372936;image)

At 5ns per division there's 1.25 samples per division on screen. I'm not sure how they're aligning the trigger point so exactly but it looks like they're not offsetting the rest of the wave to match. The "jitter" looks to be about 1/1.25 of a square.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 24, 2017, 06:39:12 am
I overlaid the Rigol waveform on the Siglent waveform in a single image. As you can see they're identical when you view the wave with the same settings.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372960;image)

I would say that this scope has a very serious issue when sharing the A/D converter with more than one channel.



There's more than one channel enabled in the image above...  :popcorn:

The Siglent behaves much better.

There's a major difference: The Rigol drops down to 250Ms/sec when you turn on the third channel, the Siglent doesn't (because it's only 2 channels).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372936;image)

At 5ns per division there's 1.25 samples per division on screen. I'm not sure how they're aligning the trigger point so exactly but it looks like they're not offsetting the rest of the wave to match. The "jitter" looks to be about 1/1.25 of a square.

Identical?  This is total false.  If you use identical input then they can compare.  Do these image have  exactly same signal?

Then

Quote
There's a major difference: The Rigol drops down to 250Ms/sec when you turn on the third channel, the Siglent doesn't (because it's only 2 channels).

Reason is not because Siglent have only two channel. Root reason is construction.
When max 1GSa/s Siglent have 4 channel on it do not drop to 250MSa/s.

Rigol construction is cheapest possible:
1ADC1MEM/4

Siglent 4 channel construction is semi cheap:
1ADC1MEM/2 + 1ADC1MEM/2

If compare Siglent 100MHz 4 channel model and Rigol 100MHz 4 channel model:

Rigol  1Channel on,  1GSa/s max mem 24M (officially without option 12M)
Rigol  2Channel on,  500MSa/s 12M both channels. (without option 6M)
Rigol  3Channels on, 250MSa/s 6M all channels (without option 3M)
Rigol  4Channel on, 250MSa/s  6M  all channels. (without option 3M)

Siglent 1Channel on, 1GSa/s max mem 14M
Siglent 2Channel on, 1GSa/s max mem 14M both channels
Siglent 4Channel on, 500MSa/s max mem 7M for all channels.

Some other oscilloscope may have other construction
example 1ADC1MEM + 1ADC1MEM + 1ADC1MEM + 1ADC1MEM
this kind of oscilloscope have always same sampling speed and memory independent of how many channels is simultaneously in use.  This kind of construction is of course most expensive (And best).

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: HalFET on November 24, 2017, 06:51:40 am
Even Keysight and Tek share AD converters usually. Keep in mind you also need the hardware to support that converter and to process the data from it. These things run hot, are power hungry, and dump up to 8 or 16 Gbps of data into your FPGA and memory, not to mention the timing constraints. So it's perfectly reasonable to share ADCs between channels if you're short on money.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 24, 2017, 06:54:58 am
Early next week I will be able to do a test video of the SDS1204X-E and SDS1104X-E. I will use the SDG6052X (video already online for it) and run frequency test on multiple channels as 1+2 and 1+3. Let see what will happen  :popcorn:
At max 200MHz standard cable quality shouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 06:57:36 am
Identical?  This is total false.  If you use identical input then they can compare.  Do these image have  exactly same signal?
The signal is the same, yes. Leo Brodnar's pulse generator connected to a T BNC adapter with a 50 ohm terminator.

I tried to compare the behaviors of both at the same sampling rate. The eye diagram is a different story, though, I can't do it at 250 Msa/s with the Siglent.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 07:02:04 am
Even Keysight and Tek share AD converters usually. Keep in mind you also need the hardware to support that converter and to process the data from it. These things run hot, are power hungry, and dump up to 8 or 16 Gbps of data into your FPGA and memory, not to mention the timing constraints. So it's perfectly reasonable to share ADCs between channels if you're short on money.
I understand that it's perfectly reasonable, but I think the Rigol has an aliasing problem at 250 Msa/s. This pulse generator is a nasty source for this kind of test because it has lots of harmonics. Remember that the rise and fall times are less than 60 ps.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 07:13:56 am
I overlaid the Rigol waveform on the Siglent waveform in a single image. As you can see they're identical when you view the wave with the same settings.
My apologies, it's true at 500 Msa/s and it's an effect of interpolation, not jitter. I was about to go to bed when I wrote that.

The Rigol has a jitter problem at 250 Msa/s, though. I think an anti aliasing filter is missing.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: JPortici on November 24, 2017, 07:18:59 am
Anyway, I was mainly trying to point out why the premium for the SDS1104X-E over the DS1054Z might be worth it even at 100MHz.

good luck with some dudes.
a premium that gives you access to better equipment in the long run, such as decodes you don't think you'll need, an AWG that doesn't look terrible on paper (is it worth it? we'll see) and an MSO option.
but the pricetag on the other is lower.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: 2N3055 on November 24, 2017, 08:01:25 am
I don't have Leo's gen.. (It's on a list :-)
This is my old Hameg 8030-6, at 11 something MHz.. Horrible square..

But let's put that on the side...

Running 4 ch, no Jitter...  Dot mode and vector mode...

When running 1GS an 500 GS/sec it is bit cleaner but looks the same.

You should run self cal to see if it helps. I realized that it is necessary to do self cal often.

Regards,

Sinisa
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 24, 2017, 08:28:55 am
I don't have Leo's gen.. (It's on a list :-)
This is my old Hameg 8030-6, at 11 something MHz.. Horrible square..

But let's put that on the side...

Running 4 ch, no Jitter...  Dot mode and vector mode...

When running 1GS an 500 GS/sec it is bit cleaner but looks the same.

You should run self cal to see if it helps. I realized that it is necessary to do self cal often.

Regards,

Sinisa

As can see it can handle signal what do not have so high frequency components. This signal do not have. Signal rise and fall times are very slow. 250MSa/s even with false Sin(x)/x can handle this kind of signal thumbs down. Sample interval is 4ns.  Serious problems start with much faster signal rise/fall times.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2017, 08:51:23 am
I shouldn't, NDA and all that......

SDS1104X-E
Source: SDG1032X 10 MHz terminated into 50 \$\Omega\$ feed-throughs for each channel

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=373060;image)

NO visible difference between SinX and X interpolation
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 08:54:14 am
Yes, that's 1 Gsa/s. It gets interesting when you go to 500 Msa/s.

Note that I'm not criticizing the SDS1202X-E. sin(x)/x interpolation invents data of course. But it's a similar effect to that of an analog oscilloscope "filling the gaps"
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2017, 08:58:03 am
Yes, that's 1 Gsa/s. It gets interesting when you go to 500 Msa/s.

Note that I'm not criticizing the SDS1202X-E. sin(x)/x interpolation invents data of course. But it's a similar effect to that of an analog oscilloscope "filling the gaps"
Is there a reason why your screenshots are done with AC trigger coupling ?  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 24, 2017, 09:02:12 am
I am yet to read the manual but will the Siglent SDS 1000X-E series incorporate a real time clock and in turn allocate time and date stamps to recorded or saved events in stand alone operation, this is important as I regularly monitor systems for glitches and require time stamped events for correlation, leaving a laptop connected and running on a remote site for this particular purpose is not always practical.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 09:11:55 am
Is there a reason why your screenshots are done with AC trigger coupling ?  :-//
Not at all, distraction. Should it matter much? I can try with DC trigger coupling. Anyway the pulse generator signal is really symmetric, so there shouldn't be a difference.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: 2N3055 on November 24, 2017, 09:26:44 am
As can see it can handle signal what do not have so high frequency components. This signal do not have. Signal rise and fall times are very slow. 250MSa/s even with false Sin(x)/x can handle this kind of signal thumbs down. Sample interval is 4ns.  Serious problems start with much faster signal rise/fall times.

I wasn't talking about ringing on rising and falling edges. Every Sin(x)/x interpolation will have those artifacts if fed signal with frequency content above the Nyquist limit...  There is no replacement for 10x times oversampling and tight filtering.. If you look into his captures, Siglent has worse ringing than Rigol at 500 MS/sec...

I was referring to the 5ns jitter on the falling edges of the pulse.. That is something not proportional to signal speed, quite the opposite, with signals that have slow edges jitter will be worse..  Again, there is no jitter on the right side of the screen..

Screen from a new one looks very good, but one with 500 MS/sec would be interesting one, to see how it looks worst case. Best case with 1 GS/sec looks perfect on Rigol too..
Anyways it does look promising and definitely is a step forward. It has potential to be a good scope.
It will be interesting to see how will it compare with new Rigols that will come out...

It is always a good thing when competitors come out with good product. In the end user are getting good products, from one company or another..

Regards,
Sinisa

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2017, 09:28:31 am
I am yet to read the manual but will the Siglent SDS 1000X-E series incorporate a real time clock and in turn allocate time and date stamps to recorded or saved events in stand alone operation, this is important as I regularly monitor systems for glitches and require time stamped events for correlation, leaving a laptop connected and running on a remote site for this particular purpose is not always practical.
Sorry Muttley the 1kX-E series don't have a RTC.  :(
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 09:35:33 am
Sorry Muttley the 1kX-E series don't have a RTC.  :(
So, dear Linux based oscilloscope makers.

Having a Linux system inside it would be trivial to add NTP synchronization or, in case you want to avoid having another daemon running (understandable), run ntpdate to adjust the date and time.

It's simple and, assuming it will be ntpdate, you have two options.

First: using the NTP servers provided by DHCP. Some DHCP servers provide that information.

Second: in case DHCP doesn't provide NTP servers, use the NTP Pool project.

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER HARDCODE IP ADDRESSES OF NTP SERVERS. ALWAYS USE THE OFFICIAL NAMES

http://www.pool.ntp.org/en/use.html (http://www.pool.ntp.org/en/use.html)

Doing this, which is really trivial, you can have the option of an accurate timestamp on your screenshots. It only needs the Ethernet plugged.



Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2017, 09:39:05 am
Yes, that's 1 Gsa/s. It gets interesting when you go to 500 Msa/s.
Pick the difference.....if you can.

Same setup as previously except channels 1 and 2 for 500 Msa/s.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=373065;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=373060)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 24, 2017, 09:48:24 am
Sorry Muttley the 1kX-E series don't have a RTC.  :(

I thought one of the previous series did have an onboard clock with time stamps for recorded events, it's a shame they didn't include one on this series.   :o ::)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: 2N3055 on November 24, 2017, 09:49:58 am
That looks good...

Looking forward to see reports from the field when it gets released..

@ Borjam : NTP is not necesary.
1 USD RTC is good enough to keep time of day. What is complicated and needs effort and resources is nanosecond scale time-stamping at scopes time-base timing resolution. And that is what is needed to be useful. Exact TOD is not that important as is relative time-stamps from beginning of capture at high resolution..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2017, 09:54:48 am
Sorry Muttley the 1kX-E series don't have a RTC.  :(

I thought one of the previous series did have an onboard clock with time stamps for recorded events, it's shame they didn't include one on this series.   :o ::)
You are quite right on both points.
But to add the things the X series have; bigger display, RTC, 50 \$\Omega\$ inputs, etc will lift the price so there is little differential between the 2 series.
You can never please everybody.  :(
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 09:55:32 am
@ Borjam : NTP is not necesary.
You avoid the pain of adjusting date and time with the oscilloscope knobs :)

Maybe a luxury, but a trivial one to implement! ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 09:59:47 am
Pick the difference.....if you can.

Same setup as previously except channels 1 and 2 for 500 Msa/s.
But not the same pulse generator as mine, which has a lot of high frequency content.

Do you think DC coupled triggering will make a difference? I'll try later.

Note that I'm not criticizing it, as far as I know this is to be expected due to interpolation in the presence of a lot of high frequency components. Leo Bodnar's pulse generator has a rise time of 40 ps or better.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2017, 10:17:41 am
Pick the difference.....if you can.

Same setup as previously except channels 1 and 2 for 500 Msa/s.
But not the same pulse generator as mine, which has a lot of high frequency content.
Sure but the SDG1000X is the fastest I have ATM.....can't afford the SDG6000X.  :'(

Quote
Do you think DC coupled triggering will make a difference? I'll try later.
It didn't when I checked, well not for the 1 Gsa/s screenshot.

Quote
Note that I'm not criticizing it, as far as I know this is to be expected due to interpolation in the presence of a lot of high frequency components. Leo Bodnar's pulse generator has a rise time of 40 ps or better.
Yep, I've been watching Leo's thread, cool little pulse gen.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 24, 2017, 10:31:01 am
Sure but the SDG1000X is the fastest I have ATM.....can't afford the SDG6000X.  :'(

It didn't when I checked, well not for the 1 Gsa/s screenshot.

Yep, I've been watching Leo's thread, cool little pulse gen.  :)
I hate how this forum tends to slowly erode away the lack of need for all sorts of things you didn't even know existed. I mean, a fast pulse generator? I couldn't even figure out why I'd want a signal generator two years ago. Now I nearly must have one of these pulse generators to give the oscilloscope a workout.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 11:04:22 am
I hate how this forum tends to slowly erode away the lack of need for all sorts of things you didn't even know existed. I mean, a fast pulse generator? I couldn't even figure out why I'd want a signal generator two years ago. Now I nearly must have one of these pulse generators to give the oscilloscope a workout.

Well, a fast pulse generator can be a nice learning tool. For example you can experiment with TDR. Such a fast pulse generator can be
useful to learn about the limitations of our instruments as well.

And it's not expensive at all.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2017, 11:06:03 am
I overlaid the Rigol waveform on the Siglent waveform in a single image. As you can see they're identical when you view the wave with the same settings.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372960;image)

Identical?  This is total false.

Huh? Add a twist of the brightness knob and a tweak of the probe compensation and those two are identical.

Rigol construction is cheapest possible:
1ADC1MEM/4

Siglent 4 channel construction is semi cheap:
1ADC1MEM/2 + 1ADC1MEM/2
And this is reflected in the price. No official price yet but so far it seems like it will cost about $250 more.

(And given that the Rigol is currently selling for $328, that's a lot more...)

If compare Siglent 100MHz 4 channel model and Rigol 100MHz 4 channel model:

Are you allowed to do that, given the price difference?

Maybe a comparison with a similarly priced Siglent would be more relevant:

Rigol  1Channel on,  1GSa/s max mem 24M (officially without option 12M)
Rigol  2Channel on,  500MSa/s 12M both channels. (without option 6M)

Siglent 1Channel on, 1GSa/s max mem 14M
Siglent 2Channel on, 500MSa/s max mem 7M for all channels.

So... identical.

Except with the Rigol I have a bit more memory and another two channels when I need them.

(which I often do)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 24, 2017, 11:08:35 am
Well, a fast pulse generator can be a nice learning tool. For example you can experiment with TDR. Such a fast pulse generator can be
useful to learn about the limitations of our instruments as well.

And it's not expensive at all.
There are a lot of not very expensive nice to haves, but added up it's still a lot.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 11:10:48 am
Add a twist of the brightness knob and a tweak of the probe compensation and those two are identical.  :-//
Results are pretty similar, indeed, showing the artifacts of the interpolation.

No probes here, I have used a BNC "T" adapter. One of the ends is directly connected to the pulse generator (no cables, the PCB has a male BNC connector) and the other one to a 50 ohm SMA terminator via a BNC-SMA adapter.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 24, 2017, 11:14:08 am
(Corrected, at 500 Msa/s it's not jitter, but an artifact of reconstruction). However, I think there is a problem at 250 Msa/s, probably due to aliasing.
I would say that the Rigol has a serious aliasing problem at 250 Msa/s.
No because the fundamental frequency is way below the Nyquist frequency (a factor 12.5 to be precise) and that shouldn't be a problem at all for properly implemented sin (x)/x reconstruction. Aliasing artefacts may distort the edges but it shouldn't distort the fundamental frequency of the signal. At 250Ms/s the Nyquist frequency is 125MHz. That means you can display the fundamental, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th and  some of the 11th harmonic of a 10MHz square wave. A DSO should have no problem showing a decent square wave in these conditions.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2017, 11:14:46 am
Well, a fast pulse generator can be a nice learning tool. For example you can experiment with TDR. Such a fast pulse generator can be
useful to learn about the limitations of our instruments as well.

And it's not expensive at all.
There are a lot of not very expensive nice to haves, but added up it's still a lot.
One small advantage of being a distributor......oh, that's for stock dear.  ;D  :-DD
Not sure how long that will continue to work.  :scared:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 11:17:31 am
Well, a fast pulse generator can be a nice learning tool. For example you can experiment with TDR. Such a fast pulse generator can be
useful to learn about the limitations of our instruments as well.

And it's not expensive at all.
There are a lot of not very expensive nice to haves, but added up it's still a lot.
One small advantage of being a distributor......oh, that's for stock dear.  ;D  :-DD
Not sure how long that will continue to work.  :scared:
I'm talking about Leo Bodnar's pulse generator.

http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=124&products_id=295 (http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=124&products_id=295)

50 pound sterling didn't make me poorer!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2017, 11:22:38 am
(Corrected, at 500 Msa/s it's not jitter, but an artifact of reconstruction). However, I think there is a problem at 250 Msa/s, probably due to aliasing.
I would say that the Rigol has a serious aliasing problem at 250 Msa/s.
No because the fundamental frequency is way below the Nyquist frequency (a factor 12.5 to be precise) and that shouldn't be a problem at all for properly implemented sin (x)/x reconstruction. Aliasing artefacts may distort the edges but it shouldn't distort the fundamental frequency of the signal. At 250Ms/s the Nyquist frequency is 125MHz. That means you can display the fundamental, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th and  some of the 11th harmonic of a 10MHz square wave. A DSO should have no problem showing a decent square wave in these conditions.

It seems to be something to do with the way it aligns the (reconstructed) signal with the trigger point. Remember that one sample period is 80% of a square on screen in that image (about the same as the width of the "jitter") so they must be doing some sort of fiddling to align the waves on the trigger point to make it look pretty.

I don't know why the "jitter" only happens with 3+ channels. Could be a firmware bug.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 24, 2017, 11:25:02 am
(Corrected, at 500 Msa/s it's not jitter, but an artifact of reconstruction). However, I think there is a problem at 250 Msa/s, probably due to aliasing.
I would say that the Rigol has a serious aliasing problem at 250 Msa/s.
No because the fundamental frequency is way below the Nyquist frequency (a factor 12.5 to be precise) and that shouldn't be a problem at all for properly implemented sin (x)/x reconstruction. Aliasing artefacts may distort the edges but it shouldn't distort the fundamental frequency of the signal. At 250Ms/s the Nyquist frequency is 125MHz. That means you can display the fundamental, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th and  some of the 11th harmonic of a 10MHz square wave. A DSO should have no problem showing a decent square wave in these conditions.

It seems to be something to do with the way it aligns the (reconstructed) signal with the trigger point. Remember that one sample period is 80% of a square on screen in that image (about the same as the width of the "jitter") so they must be doing some sort of fiddling to align the waves on the trigger point to make it look pretty.

I don't know why the "jitter" only happens with 3+ channels. Could be a firmware bug.
You should increase the frequency. It wouldn't surprise me if the same thing happens with a 20MHz square wave @500Ms/s and a 40MHz square wave @1Gs/s.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2017, 11:35:03 am
I don't know why the "jitter" only happens with 3+ channels. Could be a firmware bug.
You should increase the frequency. It wouldn't surprise me if the same thing happens with a 20MHz square wave @500Ms/s and a 40MHz square wave @1Gs/s.

I don't have the pulse generator but I'm betting it doesn't (the "jitter" would still be there at 10Mhz, just half as wide)

Can anybody try it...?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 11:39:01 am
You should increase the frequency. It wouldn't surprise me if the same thing happens with a 20MHz square wave @500Ms/s and a 40MHz square wave @1Gs/s.
I don't have the means for that. Leo's "pulser" has a fixed frequency of 10 MHz.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 24, 2017, 11:44:31 am
I overlaid the Rigol waveform on the Siglent waveform in a single image. As you can see they're identical when you view the wave with the same settings.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372960;image)

Identical?  This is total false.

Huh? Add a twist of the brightness knob and a tweak of the probe compensation and those two are identical.

Rigol construction is cheapest possible:
1ADC1MEM/4

Siglent 4 channel construction is semi cheap:
1ADC1MEM/2 + 1ADC1MEM/2
And this is reflected in the price. No official price yet but so far it seems like it will cost about $250 more.

(And given that the Rigol is currently selling for $328, that's a lot more...)

"Huh? Add a twist of the brightness knob and a tweak of the probe compensation and those two are identical."

False. Period. As told, signals are far away from equal if you compare your image and then this. Perhaps need some basic education.



27th Nov you can see (and surprice) what is real true price for SDS1104X-E  what is somehow "comparable" with hacked Rigol DS1054Z if think alone frequency BW and count of channels.

But as told many times. Siglent is far over this Rigol if look measurement performance. Far over.
This is natural. Also Siglent price is higher. Rigol this model is quite old and with very limited brute force for handling signal and features.

In Europe Batronix is one trusted distributor, also with 30 days free return.
DS1054Z  offer price, including tax. Most individual citizens need buy with tax here in well developed countries. Offer price EUR 379,- Including 19% VAT.

27th Nov you can look here and surprice. but yes there is still difference in price but this price difference is really tiny if think how much more it give. Of course if user do not need more than Riglol then he buy Rigol and if it meets his needs he can be happy with it, buy cheap and you get cheap. Simple. If have only tiny needs Rigol give lot of scope for playing. If need more, then pay bit more and get more:
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2017, 12:02:00 pm
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372960;image)
False. Period. As told, signals are far away from equal. Perhaps need some basic education.

Uhuh.  :palm:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 24, 2017, 12:07:55 pm
The Siglent distributor says we should buy a Siglent, guys, so we better go with that.  :box:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2017, 12:11:06 pm
The Siglent distributor says we should buy a Siglent, guys, so we better go with that.  :box:

Looks that way.  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 12:12:03 pm
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372960;image)
False. Period. As told, signals are far away from equal. Perhaps need some basic education.

Uhuh.  :palm:

Please, guys, stop the religious war!!  :horse:

Now.

At 500 MSa/s we don't know wether the Rigol DS1000Z is doing sin(x)/x interpolation or something else. It can only be toggled when the sample rate goes down to 250 MSa/s when enabling more than two channels.

On the Siglent you can enable or disable it regardless of the sample rate. In the examples you are comparing we know certainly (unless they lie) that the Siglent is doing sin(x)/x interpolation.

Is the Rigol doing it or not? We don't know.

So, there are differences between the two eye diagrams indeed. But we don't know wether we are comparing apples to oranges or apples to apples
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2017, 12:13:10 pm
Rigol construction is cheapest possible:
1ADC1MEM/4

Siglent 4 channel construction is semi cheap:
1ADC1MEM/2 + 1ADC1MEM/2
And this is reflected in the price. No official price yet but so far it seems like it will cost about $250 more.
[/quote]

US$499 retail for the 100MHz model.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2017, 01:02:14 pm
this is reflected in the price. No official price yet but so far it seems like it will cost about $250 more.

US$499 retail for the 100MHz model.

OK, so about 42% more (if the current Rigol discounts stick).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 24, 2017, 02:08:35 pm
this is reflected in the price. No official price yet but so far it seems like it will cost about $250 more.

US$499 retail for the 100MHz model.

OK, so about 42% more (if the current Rigol discounts stick).

https://www.batterfly.com/shop/siglent-sds1104x-e (https://www.batterfly.com/shop/siglent-sds1104x-e)
429,00€ exVAT

https://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z (https://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z)
310,00€ exVAT (Xmas Promo)

Siglent official "free for public date" for prices is 27.Nov. So I do not want comment if this price is true or sleeve-shaken.
;)


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2017, 02:22:34 pm
https://www.batterfly.com/shop/siglent-sds1104x-e (https://www.batterfly.com/shop/siglent-sds1104x-e)
429,00€ exVAT

Sounds about right if it's $500-ish (although 16% tax would be very low).

https://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z (https://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z)
310,00€ exVAT (Xmas Promo)

You can do much better than that:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/rigol-ds1054z-on-sale-$349-with-options-tequipment/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/rigol-ds1054z-on-sale-$349-with-options-tequipment/)

If subtract 16% tax from $349 it comes out at 300€.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 24, 2017, 02:29:53 pm
https://www.batterfly.com/shop/siglent-sds1104x-e (https://www.batterfly.com/shop/siglent-sds1104x-e)
429,00€ exVAT

Sounds about right if it's $500-ish (although 16% tax would be very low).

https://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z (https://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z)
310,00€ exVAT (Xmas Promo)

You can do much better than that:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/rigol-ds1054z-on-sale-$349-with-options-tequipment/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/rigol-ds1054z-on-sale-$349-with-options-tequipment/)

If we use a coupon then subtract 16% tax it comes out at $282.
EU is not US. 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2017, 02:32:59 pm
EU is not US.

It still costs 40% more, so... same difference. :-//

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Giuss on November 24, 2017, 04:57:10 pm
The 200Mhz version costs 659 euro, very big difference
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 24, 2017, 05:47:52 pm
The 200Mhz version costs 659 euro, very big difference


Batronix:
Rigol 100MHz, DS1104Z   EUR 579,- exVAT
Riglol  50MHz, DS1054Z   EUR 318,- exVAT (limited time -6% offer price).

Very big difference. ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 24, 2017, 06:00:28 pm
Batronix:
Rigol 100MHz, DS1104Z   EUR 579,- exVAT
Riglol  50MHz, DS1054Z   EUR 318,- exVAT (limited time -6% offer price).

Very big difference. ;)
Denying reality won't change a thing. If you can show us how to hack the 100 MHz Siglent to the 200 MHz model, then you'll have a point.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Giuss on November 24, 2017, 06:10:54 pm
Even without a hack,  the 100Mhz version could be the best buy in most cases

We don't know if there is only a software difference between the two models
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 24, 2017, 06:12:11 pm
since this thread is ON I lost my life ... can't stop watching ... need a cure
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on November 24, 2017, 06:20:24 pm
since this thread is ON I lost my life ... can't stop watching ... need a cure
Aren't you a distributor of this product?  Your opinion is biased, you can't stop watching because you want to sell as many units as possible.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 24, 2017, 06:24:51 pm
since this thread is ON I lost my life ... can't stop watching ... need a cure
Aren't you a distributor of this product?  Your opinion is biased, you can't stop watching because you want to sell as many units as possible.
This is your opinion based on your reality. I'm personally in love with test equipment and read so many post and yes the forum helped me to find the enthusiasm to do even more. Yes I sell for living, is it an issue? If you like a discount code PM me lol  :-+
One more thing, my opinion is not biased, if I have to talk shi... about product I do it no problem  :box:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 24, 2017, 06:25:50 pm
Batronix:
Rigol 100MHz, DS1104Z   EUR 579,- exVAT
Riglol  50MHz, DS1054Z   EUR 318,- exVAT (limited time -6% offer price).

Very big difference. ;)
Denying reality won't change a thing. If you can show us how to hack the 100 MHz Siglent to the 200 MHz model, then you'll have a point.

You can not hack DS1000Z for 200MHz. You loose reality?  And there was just plain wonder about 200MHz model higher price than 100MHz model.

Do you know wqhy Rigol keep this high price for 100MHz model.  It is there and you can not deny this truth about Rigol 50 and 100MHz models price difference.

I do not even understand why Rigol fans are so alarmed about this Siglent model. They do not competite at all in same serie. So, why this all distress.  My recommendation: If Riglol meets user needs and budget just buy it and be happy with it - it is so simple.

Some times some peoples ask in real life from me what scope is ok for his needs what needs he have explained. When I see that Rigol this model is well enough I will recommend it - I have done it many times. It have its weaknesses but for many peoples it is still just ok. It depends user needs exactly and alone. Also many hobbyist play with very limited budget.  Market is full of different oscilloscopes for different needs and budget and also for different taste about outlook - some like blonde and some like redheads..  Still Rigol is not at all bad with its price, price wise better than many many others. But user need understand also its pros and cons, as also other models and brands.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on November 24, 2017, 06:28:20 pm
since this thread is ON I lost my life ... can't stop watching ... need a cure
Aren't you a distributor of this product?  Your opinion is biased, you can't stop watching because you want to sell as many units as possible.
This is your opinion based on your reality. I'm personally in love with test equipment and read so many post and yes the forum helped me to find the enthusiasm to do even more. Yes I sell for living, is it an issue? If you like a discount code PM me lol  :-+
One more thing, my opinion is not biased, if I have to talk shi... about product I do it no problem  :box:
No thank you, I already have a REAL OSCILLOSCOPE  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 24, 2017, 06:32:05 pm
since this thread is ON I lost my life ... can't stop watching ... need a cure
Aren't you a distributor of this product?  Your opinion is biased, you can't stop watching because you want to sell as many units as possible.
This is your opinion based on your reality. I'm personally in love with test equipment and read so many post and yes the forum helped me to find the enthusiasm to do even more. Yes I sell for living, is it an issue? If you like a discount code PM me lol  :-+
One more thing, my opinion is not biased, if I have to talk shi... about product I do it no problem  :box:
No thank you, I already have a REAL OSCILLOSCOPE  ;)
uauauauau :) I was kidding ... or maybe not ... we are out of the World Cup so I need you have to accept my sarcasm  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on November 24, 2017, 06:33:32 pm
since this thread is ON I lost my life ... can't stop watching ... need a cure
Aren't you a distributor of this product?  Your opinion is biased, you can't stop watching because you want to sell as many units as possible.
This is your opinion based on your reality. I'm personally in love with test equipment and read so many post and yes the forum helped me to find the enthusiasm to do even more. Yes I sell for living, is it an issue? If you like a discount code PM me lol  :-+
One more thing, my opinion is not biased, if I have to talk shi... about product I do it no problem  :box:
No thank you, I already have a REAL OSCILLOSCOPE  ;)
uauauauau :) I was kidding ... or maybe not ... we are out of the World Cup so I need you have to accept my sarcasm  :-+
We are out of the world cup too (US), so on that topic we are even
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2017, 06:48:01 pm
Rigol construction is cheapest possible:
1ADC1MEM/4

Siglent 4 channel construction is semi cheap:
1ADC1MEM/2 + 1ADC1MEM/2
And this is reflected in the price. No official price yet but so far it seems like it will cost about $250 more.

US$499 retail for the 100MHz model.
[/quote]


Dave I hope you don't make usage mistakes like you did with the above quoted post.
Fixed for you:

Rigol construction is cheapest possible:
1ADC1MEM/4

Siglent 4 channel construction is semi cheap:
1ADC1MEM/2 + 1ADC1MEM/2
And this is reflected in the price. No official price yet but so far it seems like it will cost about $250 more.
US$499 retail for the 100MHz model.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Ghislain on November 24, 2017, 07:23:55 pm
Even without a hack,  the 100Mhz version could be the best buy in most cases

We don't know if there is only a software difference between the two models

Apart from the BW and probes, both scopes seem to be sharing a common platform but that is based on what the spec sheet reveals, reality may still be different.
We will not know for sure until someone takes both apart (Dave?).
What I do not understand yet is why they are coming with two models if the only difference is BW?
Price wise it looks like Siglent is doing a similar thing to what KS and R&S are already doing (at least if the preliminary information we have at present turns out to be correct) and do not forget their offerings are at least 3 to 4 times Siglent's (preliminary) price.
Looking forward to Dave's review!
PS. I am enjoying the developments in this thread although it looks like some members are already starting to overheat and the 27th is still 3 days away  ;D (and yes, we made it to the world cup  8))
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Hydron on November 24, 2017, 07:33:42 pm
uauauauau :) I was kidding ... or maybe not ... we are out of the World Cup so I need you have to accept my sarcasm  :-+
We (NZ) are out too, though it was a long shot trying to beat Peru.
On the bright side, you're in the Rugby World Cup, which I think is better :P (in the same pool too)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 24, 2017, 07:35:54 pm
uauauauau :) I was kidding ... or maybe not ... we are out of the World Cup so I need you have to accept my sarcasm  :-+
We (NZ) are out too, though it was a long shot trying to beat Peru.
On the bright side, you're in the Rugby World Cup, which I think is better :P (in the same pool too)
We like to plat with balls but sometimes we let them drop augh!!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: pascal_sweden on November 24, 2017, 10:10:57 pm
Can someone please do a real test on the decoder functionality in the oscilloscope?

Really debug an SPI signal or a CAN bus signal, and use all 4 channels for the decoding.

Even on the 2 channel model which has been out there for quite some time, nobody on YouTube did a decent decoder test.

Connecting a sinus signal to the inputs is not really a decent test. For some people that's the best that they can do for some reason.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 24, 2017, 10:24:15 pm
Can someone please do a real test on the decoder functionality in the oscilloscope?

Really debug an SPI signal or a CAN bus signal, and use all 4 channels for the decoding.

Even on the 2 channel model which has been out there for quite some time, nobody on YouTube did a decent decoder test.

Connecting a sinus signal to the inputs is not really a decent test. For some people that's the best that they can do for some reason.
I agree. It is the advanced features like decoding and measurements where cheap scopes often fall flat on their face. Every scope can do squiggly lines and has a different user interface which a reviewer may like or not but that is just his/her opinion.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2017, 11:33:12 pm
Can someone please do a real test on the decoder functionality in the oscilloscope?

Really debug an SPI signal or a CAN bus signal, and use all 4 channels for the decoding.
There's 2 tools that can help here;
The Serial Trigger suite and the Search function.

Both have a list of parameters that can be selected and values user defined.

With Search you can have it just flag an event or Stop sweeps by transferring the settings to the Trigger.
Search settings are mainly edge, pulse, interval and runt, each with a range of user definable parameters.

Simple decoding can be performed without use of the Decoding Trigger suite and there's a decent list of tools in the suite if needed.
From the datasheet:
I2C
Start, Stop, Restart, No Ack, EEPROM, 7 bits Address & Data, 10 bits Address & Data, Data Length
SPI
Data
UART/RS232
Start, Stop, Data, Parity Error
CAN
All, Remote, ID, ID + Data, Error
LIN
Break, Frame ID, ID+Data, Error

Many/most parameters are definable.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 24, 2017, 11:56:40 pm
That is not an answer to the question Pascal is asking: Does decoding (and other advanced features) actually work right now / out of the box? On paper everything can look dandy but if it doesn't work then it is useless and without a real review the only way to find out is to buy one and do a full functional test yourself.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2017, 09:03:24 am
I do not even understand why Rigol fans are so alarmed about this Siglent model.
I'm not alarmed, I just think the Siglent fans are funny.

I'm not sure why the DS1054Z attracts so much hate. The 2-channel Siglent arrived with plenty of bugs but was there a dozen endless threads on here bashing it? Noooo.  :-//

some like blonde and some like redheads.

Both of those have plenty of user interface problems and very large discrepancies in the readouts.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2017, 09:05:27 am
Can someone please do a real test on the decoder functionality in the oscilloscope?

I really doubt it will be different than the 2-channel version.

(apart from SPI, obviously)

Has nobody done an extensive critique of the 2-channel model yet?  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: EEVblog on November 25, 2017, 01:52:13 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kay4Jk2DHuE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kay4Jk2DHuE)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2017, 02:19:59 pm
(very quick teardown video)

No big surprises in the hardware.  :popcorn:

You'd think there's be a way to bolt the AWG module to the side of the 'scope. And that it would be a matching color.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 25, 2017, 05:37:54 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kay4Jk2DHuE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kay4Jk2DHuE)

Is it time to small thinking how oscilloscope works for understanding better what you see and then wonder why it show multiple captures when you are working with trigger normal mode. Is it time for lesson?
2 points wink: It have quite fast trigger rearm.
3 points wink: Screen update period is perhaps roughly around 25ms
4 points wink: How many trigged acquisition it can do for one display refresh.
1 point wink. Trigger normal mode. It trig continuously as long as there is detected trigger events including short rearm time.

You can inspect and learn something after you do:

Make this shock and look there is multiple waveforms on the screen and care that it do not receive anymore triggering events. (set trigger level enough hig for avoid random trig fron some noise or environmental peaks induced to input)

After you have these multiple waveform (2--3---4--- or so on the screen and it is waiting trigger event)

Stop scope pushing it to history wiev.
Now you can scroll every separate capture and perhaps also time stamps...

Is it good to make some "theory & practice" lesson video so that peoples understand how modern fast scope works. It is nice if you can do some day.
We have also some times seen in forum when peoples who have less experience wondering why some oscilloscope show some times  multiple acquisitions on the screen  when they believe there must be only one. If you want only one. Use single shot trigger. It is waiting trig event, and it capture only this next first event.



Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 25, 2017, 05:53:32 pm
What Dave shows is definitely a bug because it isn't consistent. If it is some kind of persistence mode then I'd expect the previous acquisition to show in a darker shade so the most recent acquisition is clear to distinguish (for example: Tektronix does this on some models). Normal mode or single mode doesn't matter. In either case the last acquisition should be shown and not two different acquisitions.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 25, 2017, 06:51:35 pm
What Dave shows is definitely a bug because it isn't consistent. If it is some kind of persistence mode then I'd expect the previous acquisition to show in a darker shade so the most recent acquisition is clear to distinguish (for example: Tektronix does this on some models). Normal mode or single mode doesn't matter. In either case the last acquisition should be shown and not two different acquisitions.

Yes and no.

There Keysight looks like works right. But it also show multiple acq if I see it right. And fast scope need do that. I can explain why but too long story now at this time. So only shortly.

Also Siglent show multiple acg as it need do in first phase! Not only 2 but if there exist more triggers (burst situation), as in Dave video also happend burst  leading more acguisitions to one frame,  it need show these all, naturally, because if triggering continue (and it can not predict what happen very soon in short future) it need continue multiple acg displaying in every display frame depending incoming signal... up to  (100000k acg max/s) what means max around well over 2500 acg in one display frame (if it example refresh 40 times / s 40ms interval  and other things make possible this up to 100kwfm/s <peak> speed ).

But then if there do not exist anymore new trigger. This is now here this problem (possible bug or possible wrong think in FW programmer thinking). 
After some reasonable time it need clean display so that only last acg is displaying.   
In this point we can think what is user need. If there is not user selectable two choices, I think also that these older acq need soon clean out and leave only last one.  But if designer make it more sophisticated there also can be user selectable choice - if designer want do it. Leave last acguisitions (stacked) on the screen or leave only last (after short refresh time). 
In all cases with Siglent, user can look these previous acquistions from history buffer if he want see these previoious acquistions before last one.

Edit: Forget one setting.
If user want be sure only one acg/frame there is: Acquisition mode selection. Fast / Slow. Slow means no DPO. One acquistion for one display frame (if is is not changed).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 25, 2017, 07:36:18 pm
But if designer make it more sophisticated there also can be user selectable choice - if designer want do it. Leave last acguisitions (stacked) on the screen or leave only last (after short refresh time). 
That isn't sophisticated. That is called variable persistence and it has been available since around 1990 on (for example) the Tektronix TDS500/TDS700 series and many other DSOs.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: cbc02009 on November 25, 2017, 07:50:30 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kay4Jk2DHuE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kay4Jk2DHuE)

Any idea when the full review will be posted? Still trying to decide between that and the rigol. The main things keeping me from the rigol are the loudness (near silent office at home, I'd like it to stay that way) and the menu lag (unless that's been fixed since the last time I used one). The new sale makes it even harder to resist though, and I guess I could always change out the fan, though I've heard mixed things about whether that is  long term or not.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2017, 07:54:03 pm
What Dave shows is definitely a bug
Yes and no.

Oh, come on. If it was a Rigol you'd be starting a whole new thread/flamewar over that 'anomaly'.  :-DD

Any idea when the full review will be posted? Still trying to decide between that and the rigol.

Launch day is Monday. I suspect everybody with a 'scope is under NDA until then.

I don't believe anybody is thinking the Rigol will be better than the Siglent but the Siglent will be ~40% more money so it's not exactly an equal choice between the two. If you're going up to $500 then the Keysight 1000X isn't far away and the Keysight might be a better 'scope than the Siglent.  :o

etc. etc.

The real question is whether or not the Rigol meets your needs. If it does then it makes more sense to get yourself a 'scope plus a power supply instead of the Siglent (or whatever else you need).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 25, 2017, 08:50:28 pm
If you're going up to $500 then the Keysight 1000X isn't far away and that's a better 'scope than the Siglent.

How it is better?

I do not say Siglent is better but still need alöso note some things:

Look its measurements from highly decimated data, better than Rigol but with Siglent it loose hands down - or do it have full undecimated acguisition memory measurements. I do not exactly know truth but I suspect it do not. 
Look its speed. Look its fastest trigger rearm time.
Look its total joke segmented memory acquisition. Max 50 segments and very slow, 19 us minimuim trigger rearm time.
 Not at all waveform history buffer.
Not at all 500uV/div real full resolution full BW. It have 1mV/div full resolution. 500uV is only zoomed from 1mV/div
Quite short memory.
How about 1M FFT

Two channels and just everywhere you tell that 4 channel is must.

But one thing Keysight shine. It have 2GSa/s max.

And example decoding, perhaps they win hands down least in some decoding things, I do not know but I believe, due to long history they have exercised and perhaps hard coded to Asic?

But I'm interested how you argument it is just better. 

Is it better to think that some thing is better perhaps and some thing is worse - rest things depends user needs. I can not live without fast seqmented acg. Without normal mode backround working wfm history buffer can just live but it is least helpful to have also it.
1M max memory...hmmhhh...

Keysight name, oh yes.
I have been Hewlett-Packard fan starting from 60's - 70's  and I still have some lot of these "golden" equipments.
After then come one american lady who destroy it and after then some one change this rest (Agilent) to Keyshit with possible designed life time reduction.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2017, 09:08:25 pm
If you're going up to $500 then the Keysight 1000X isn't far away and that's a better 'scope than the Siglent.

How it is better?

I'm assured that the firmware isn't full of bugs, that all measurements are 100% perfect. There's a guy from Keysight who talks directly to EEVBLOG users if they find anything.

The 2 channel Siglent didn't have a stellar release
Two channels and just everywhere you tell that 4 channel is must.

It's more like 2+1 channels - the trigger input can also be displayed on screen.

I don't recall saying "4 channel is must" but I've often said "2 channels isn't enough".
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 25, 2017, 09:30:53 pm
Are these new X-E models replacing an existing model and if so which one are they going to drop.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: cbc02009 on November 25, 2017, 10:18:24 pm
If you're going up to $500 then the Keysight 1000X isn't far away and that's a better 'scope than the Siglent.

How it is better?

I'm assured that the firmware isn't full of bugs, that all measurements are 100% perfect. There's a guy from Keysight who talks directly to EEVBLOG users if they find anything.

Also, sorry to derail the thread. I can move my questions elsewhere if necessary.

The 2 channel Siglent didn't have a stellar release
Two channels and just everywhere you tell that 4 channel is must.

It's more like 2+1 channels - the trigger input can also be displayed on screen.

I don't recall saying "4 channel is must" but I've often said "2 channels isn't enough".

Can the trigger input work like a normal input in that regard (math, measure, etc) or does it just display on the screen? That might work.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: cbc02009 on November 25, 2017, 10:20:12 pm
Also, sorry for derailing the thread, I can ask questions elsewhere if that's better.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 25, 2017, 10:22:26 pm
Are these new X-E models replacing an existing model and if so which one are they going to drop.
My guess is the low memory depth CFL series.
http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-detailxx.aspx?id=58&tid=1&T=2 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-detailxx.aspx?id=58&tid=1&T=2)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Performa01 on November 25, 2017, 11:28:17 pm
What we have seen is the normal behavior for normal trigger mode for all SDS-series scopes. Just because it is different to other brands, this doesn’t automatically make it a bug. Where is the problem?

10MHz sine wave, 50% amplitude modulated at 50Hz, run mode:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=373619)
Sine_10MHz_AM_50%_50Hz_Run
 
The usual intensity graded display. Now hit the [Stop] button.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=373621)
Sine_10MHz_AM_50%_50Hz_Stop

Scope now knows that the user wants to stop and it shows the last acquisition. All the previous ones can be found in the history if needed.

Same scenario again, scope is in run mode, but now instead of hitting the [Stop] button we turn the input signal off.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=373623)
Sine_10MHz_AM_50%_50Hz_Off

Scope is “Ready” and waits for a new trigger. It does not clear the screen buffer, which contains some 3300 acquisition records, captured within about 40ms. The scope does not know that the user considers the session to be over. Other brands seem to implement a timeout, Siglent does not.

Big problem?

No. If we desperately need to see only the last record, we can always hit the [Stop] button anytime we want.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=373625)
Sine_10MHz_AM_50%_50Hz_Off_Stop

Voila, there is the latest acquisition again. And all the others in the history, where we can play them back at any speed we want to watch the original signal again, even though it’s long gone.

@rf-loop
The user has the choice already. It’s the stop button. Do we really need an automatic timeout? I for one do not, for sure.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 26, 2017, 12:07:51 am
What Dave shows is that sometimes it shows one trace and sometimes two traces. That is inconsequent.
Secondly what you are describing is some kind of variable time persistence mode. In such a mode you'd expect the older acquisition to show as faded because how would you be able to determine which was the last acquired trace? Sure you can push buttons but that is not convenient. I don't recall ever using a DSO showing this kind of behaviour. The closest ones are the Tektronix TDS510A and TDS220 but in those the previous acquisition is always shown as a faded trace so it is clear which trace was the acquired most recently.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 26, 2017, 12:30:23 am

@rf-loop
The user has the choice already. It’s the stop button. Do we really need an automatic timeout? I for one do not, for sure.

Not for me - of course.. I have many ways how I can use oscilloscope for my needs. Just also, as you told, there is many solutions for user, after he know his equipment and learn things to his muscle memory for use without even thinking. Some humans have more flexible brains and some peoples brains are like black and white and fixation to some "single truth" how equipment must work and if not this is always then bug but never bug or limit in own thinking or using practice.

It can implement example for mister n if it is essential. But then please selection form me that I can mostly shut off this "autoclean". I want be master and scope is slave.  Not opposite. (try to be master using example Keysight or just Riglol what do not let user shut off even sinc interpolation) - I wish good luck).

Also as previously told. If do not want DPO needed multiple captures for every display frame there is user selectable acquistion mode what do not capture more than one time to one display frame.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on November 26, 2017, 12:30:57 am
If you're going up to $500 then the Keysight 1000X isn't far away and that's a better 'scope than the Siglent.

How it is better?

I'm assured that the firmware isn't full of bugs, that all measurements are 100% perfect. There's a guy from Keysight who talks directly to EEVBLOG users if they find anything.

The 2 channel Siglent didn't have a stellar release
Two channels and just everywhere you tell that 4 channel is must.

It's more like 2+1 channels - the trigger input can also be displayed on screen.

I don't recall saying "4 channel is must" but I've often said "2 channels isn't enough".
The additional digital channel can be used on the serial decode function and it can also be added to the analog bus to form a 3-bit parallel decode bus.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: stj on November 26, 2017, 01:53:14 am
i have been trying very hard not to post before the 27th,
but it's looking like i will be placing an order or 2 with RigolOnline either on tuesday, or december - depending on my card limit!!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 26, 2017, 10:06:46 am
It's more like 2+1 channels - the trigger input can also be displayed on screen.

I don't recall saying "4 channel is must" but I've often said "2 channels isn't enough".

Can the trigger input work like a normal input in that regard (math, measure, etc) or does it just display on the screen? That might work.

It's an on/off digital input (which is why I said "2+1 channels") so I'm not sure how useful it would be for math. It works for serial decoding, etc., though.

It's not as good as four channels but it's it's a lot better than two and worth considering if "quality", "responsiveness", etc. is what you're looking for.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Priidik on November 27, 2017, 12:19:50 pm
Does anyone know the ''high-res'' bit depth and bw limit in high res mode on these things?
Datasheet/manual is not clear on that.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 27, 2017, 01:54:51 pm
Does anyone know the ''high-res'' bit depth and bw limit in high res mode on these things?
Datasheet/manual is not clear on that.
Thanks!

There is not "High-Resolution" at all.
There is "Eres"

Eres priciples are well explained here.

http://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires (http://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires)

Also there is information how you can estimate BW with Eres filtering.

Resolution. Final output resolution is in this application still 8 bit.

If some scope have true HighRes it need also in this mode more wide data. Example in Rigol Z there is not available 12 bit data out from HighRes mode as far as I know. So thios 12 bit high resolution is more for advertisements. But, also it filters noise out. Eres and "boxcar" HighRes have bit different advantages and disadvantages.

But, example, some my old Tektronix use in normal mode 8bit bytes and for highres mode double4 bytes in memory for 16 bit data width.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Old Printer on November 27, 2017, 02:23:38 pm
Well, it's 9am eastern time usa on the 27th. So far the earth has not moved, at least here in south Florida. Pretty quiet out there..so far. :) 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: marcopolo on November 28, 2017, 10:00:39 am
I ordered a SDS1104X-E from Batronix  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 29, 2017, 06:14:50 am
I ordered a SDS1104X-E from Batronix  :)

After you get it it is good to know least one thing, lest with this FW version what is there now. This version is 7.6.1.12 out from package.

If any channel is set for < 5mV/div (1X selected) then first 30 minutes after start, it need note that it do some kind of partial small auto"cal" every 15 second. It can see on the screen as some kind of short pause/"hick-up".  Or example if scope is in Roll mode, every 15 second it restart rolling trace. Or if acquisition mode is average, this average resets etc.

If all channels are 5mV/div or more this do not happen at all. After 30min continuous power on, this process end and 500uV to 2mV/div works without this "autocal" or whgat ever it is.

If user do not know at all about this,  it can cause real confusion.

Btw, this can see also in EEVblog (Dave) made nice tear down video final part where he is playing bit fun with scope. This sudden display cleaning (position 18:57) is just one symptom about this process. It happen because scope was continuously running less than 30 minutes and channel V/div was under 5mV/div.

I think that Siglent might later change this approach.  Either by doing it differently or by giving the user the choice to choose whether the oscilloscope performs internal self-tuning during time what is typical for temperature equilibrium (>30min)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 29, 2017, 06:59:05 am
That $69 wifi dongle looks suspiciously like the ones Microcenter sells for $5 (http://www.microcenter.com/product/486131/W311Mi_Wireless_N_Pico_USB_20_Adapter), I wonder if they would work?....
It's not.

In our option listings the WiFi dongle is listed as TL-WN725N.
http://www.tp-link.com/us/products/details/cat-5520_TL-WN725N.html#overview (http://www.tp-link.com/us/products/details/cat-5520_TL-WN725N.html#overview)

I've been told the gold version is the one to get, why I haven't sussed out yet.  :-//

Would be shitty design if it's an user-accessible USB port (with USB logo no less) but won't accept standard-compliant USB stuff.
Yep, we need to fiddle a bit with the WiFi dongle and see what else will work.

BUT you need buy the WIFI software option for it to work anyway unless a hack for it is found.
So I got a couple of the recommended WiFi dongles today as my beta unit wasn't shipped with one.
With the WiFi option installed operation was simple, just enter the WiFi Set submenu and enter your WiFi SSID and password OR use the Manual Scan to find your router/access point.
Then you can get from IP Set the assigned IP address to enter into your PC/laptop/tablet to use the scopes inbuilt Webserver to send SCPI commands or just manual remote control of the scope.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=374830)

Note the WiFi symbol instead of LAN at bottom right.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 29, 2017, 09:02:22 am
If any channel is set for < 5mV/div (1X selected) then first 30 minutes after start, it need note that it do some kind of partial small auto"cal" every 15 second. It can see on the screen as some kind of short pause/"hick-up".  Or example if scope is in Roll mode, every 15 second it restart rolling trace. Or if acquisition mode is average, this average resets etc.

And so it begins.

The long list of "features"...  :popcorn:

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 29, 2017, 09:24:20 am
If any channel is set for < 5mV/div (1X selected) then first 30 minutes after start, it need note that it do some kind of partial small auto"cal" every 15 second. It can see on the screen as some kind of short pause/"hick-up".  Or example if scope is in Roll mode, every 15 second it restart rolling trace. Or if acquisition mode is average, this average resets etc.

And so it begins.

The long list of "features"...  :popcorn:

Rigol DS1000Z do not have  <5mV/div.  Oh yes it have 1 and 2mV/div scale but these are internally based to 5mV/div what isa lowest full resolution sensitivity. Nice el cheapo "lollipop feature".
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 29, 2017, 09:39:43 am
If any channel is set for < 5mV/div (1X selected) then first 30 minutes after start, it need note that it do some kind of partial small auto"cal" every 15 second. It can see on the screen as some kind of short pause/"hick-up".  Or example if scope is in Roll mode, every 15 second it restart rolling trace. Or if acquisition mode is average, this average resets etc.
And so it begins.

The long list of "features"...  :popcorn:
Rigol DS1000Z do not have  <5mV/div.

Well that makes it perfectly OK for Siglent to do this screen clearing thing then.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 29, 2017, 10:32:41 am
If any channel is set for < 5mV/div (1X selected) then first 30 minutes after start, it need note that it do some kind of partial small auto"cal" every 15 second. It can see on the screen as some kind of short pause/"hick-up".  Or example if scope is in Roll mode, every 15 second it restart rolling trace. Or if acquisition mode is average, this average resets etc.
And so it begins.

The long list of "features"...  :popcorn:
Rigol DS1000Z do not have  <5mV/div.

Well that makes it perfectly OK for Siglent to do this screen clearing thing then.

Only when there is not thermal equilibrium time estimate reached it do some automatic self adjust and only in case when high sensitivity range 500uV/div - 2mV/div is in use.
Siglent is not only oscilloscope what do self adjustment when thermal drift with high sensitivity range in use.  Some oscilloscopes may have user selection for disable and enable this self adjust.  Is it first time you hear about this kind of things is oscilloscopes or other T&M instruments?
But, so or so, this solution can do more sophisticated way what it is implemented now. Still better than nothing.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: IAmBack on November 29, 2017, 10:47:55 am
How protocol decoding works on these new Siglents? Do they take only on-screen data or they do processing of full buffer of data to be decoded?

Can somebody compare 100 and 200M versions (e.g. how 50/75/100M square wave look on both of the units)? Please :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 29, 2017, 10:51:33 am
How protocol decoding works on these new Siglents? Do they take only on-screen data or they do processing of full buffer of data to be decoded?

Can somebody compare 100 and 200M versions (e.g. how 50/75/100M square wave look on both of the units)? Please :)
I'm going to do it right now even if my cables are not the best for higher frequencies. I will use a SDG6052X (the video of it is already online)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 29, 2017, 11:03:46 am
How protocol decoding works on these new Siglents? Do they take only on-screen data or they do processing of full buffer of data to be decoded?
Same as previous 1000X and X+ series and 2000X with user skill.  ;)
Display a long stream at slow timebase setting and then use zoom for detail. Event table can be displayed to help navigate.
Well shown in this post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1139758/#msg1139758 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1139758/#msg1139758)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 29, 2017, 11:13:26 am
Standard delivery:
- oscilloscope
- 4 passive probes
- power cable
- usb cable
- certificate
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 29, 2017, 11:23:53 am
How protocol decoding works on these new Siglents? Do they take only on-screen data or they do processing of full buffer of data to be decoded?


Siglent full buffer length is, always when scope is running, same as display width. Whole data is mapped to display. Even if full buffer is 14M it is same as display width. So, it decodes from currently used buffer length.  So, if need decode longer memory it need use slow timebase and then zoom for details, also with decoding. You can zoom and pan for wanted details. Never there is captured signal hidden from user eyes unlike scopes who have small slice from total lenghth displayed. Less visual blind time.

Also same for measurements.  Measurements use full buffer lenght/resolution. Not decimated reduced intermediate buffer or display memory.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 29, 2017, 11:32:24 am
How protocol decoding works on these new Siglents? Do they take only on-screen data or they do processing of full buffer of data to be decoded?
Same as previous 1000X and X+ series and 2000X with user skill.  ;)
Display a long stream at slow timebase setting and then use zoom for detail. Event table can be displayed to help navigate.
But then you'll have to re-capture a longer trace if you want to see more and you will always need to use zoom mode which takes away screen space. That is pretty terrible if you are looking at 4 channels and the event you are triggering on takes some effort/waiting to happen. Why doesn't Siglent make their scopes work like anyone else's? Have the user select the memory depth and use that and never ever switch back to auto memory unless the user explicitly selects that mode.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 29, 2017, 01:19:22 pm
Here is a nice image while decoding

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Giuss on November 29, 2017, 02:15:26 pm
A big improvement from the 2 channel version is the possibility to use 4 channels to decode SPI signals. I'd like to see a video or picture of SPI decoding in action
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 29, 2017, 02:33:24 pm
Only when there is not thermal equilibrium time estimate reached it do some automatic self adjust and only in case when high sensitivity range 500uV/div - 2mV/div is in use.
Siglent is not only oscilloscope what do self adjustment when thermal drift with high sensitivity range in use.  Some oscilloscopes may have user selection for disable and enable this self adjust.

But the reason the Siglent clears the screen is...?

Is it first time you hear about this kind of things is oscilloscopes or other T&M instruments?

 :scared:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: JPortici on November 29, 2017, 04:28:26 pm
a very nice thing keysight 3000x can do compared to scopes in simillar and lower class is that it can decode CAN and apply a dbc file to the decoded data (so ID 0xABCD will read as "Engine ECU #1" for example)
can this siglent or any siglent do that? makes it a lot easier to interpret data before going to a canbus analyzer... (if none can, please appropriate people, take note..)

by the way i was looking at simone's video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A)

liking what i'm seeing so far..
It'd be nice to look at some high speed SPI and see how good/bad is it when reducing the timebase. I'd be happy to test it myself or bring a board to test but i have no reason to come to bologna before the new year, i'm busy all weekends... (well i'll probably be there at new year's but no work, all play :) )
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: pascal_sweden on November 29, 2017, 05:59:36 pm
I found out on the Batronix website that the AWG and LA options are both split in an extra hardware option and a software license.
This is a bit weird IMO as the extra hardware option is not meaningful without the software license.

I am under the impression that they did this to make the cost seem lower, as the cost gets quite steep if you add both the hardware option and the software license.

If you would go for the 200MHz version of the 4 channel model, and throw in an AWG and LA option (each time both the hardware option and software license), the overall price reaches the 1000 EUR barrier and beyond.

I wonder if that price point is still competitive, or if there are other more appealing options at the competitors for an oscilloscope with AWG and LA options?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 29, 2017, 06:06:04 pm
a very nice thing keysight 3000x can do compared to scopes in simillar and lower class is that it can decode CAN and apply a dbc file to the decoded data (so ID 0xABCD will read as "Engine ECU #1" for example)
can this siglent or any siglent do that? makes it a lot easier to interpret data before going to a canbus analyzer... (if none can, please appropriate people, take note..)

by the way i was looking at simone's video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A)

liking what i'm seeing so far..
It'd be nice to look at some high speed SPI and see how good/bad is it when reducing the timebase. I'd be happy to test it myself or bring a board to test but i have no reason to come to bologna before the new year, i'm busy all weekends... (well i'll probably be there at new year's but no work, all play :) )
Please feel free to come to visit us!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 29, 2017, 06:11:04 pm
I found out on the Batronix website that the AWG and LA options are both split in an extra hardware option and a software license.
This is a bit weird IMO as the extra hardware option is not meaningful without the software license.

I am under the impression that they did this to make the cost seem lower, as the cost gets quite steep if you add both the hardware option and the software license.

If you would go for the 200MHz version of the 4 channel model, and throw in an AWG and LA option (each time both the hardware option and software license), the overall price reaches the 1000 EUR barrier and beyond.

I wonder if that price point is still competitive, or if there are other more appealing options at the competitors for an oscilloscope with AWG and LA options?
Yes both SW and HW for generator and logic analyzer are splitter, the HW will be available probably close to Xmas or new year.
Today I connected the SDG6052X to the SDS1204X-E and it just worked immediately, I'm wondering if the FG SW option can also drive all features of other Siglent generators, I will find this out soon.

Also in the SDS2000X you have the same options HW and SW, in the end Siglent made a pkg all together.

Maybe we can think to offer something similar but first we want to get all options and try them. Please contact me for special request, thanks.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: JPortici on November 29, 2017, 06:33:53 pm
I found out on the Batronix website that the AWG and LA options are both split in an extra hardware option and a software license.
This is a bit weird IMO as the extra hardware option is not meaningful without the software license.

I am under the impression that they did this to make the cost seem lower, as the cost gets quite steep if you add both the hardware option and the software license.

If you would go for the 200MHz version of the 4 channel model, and throw in an AWG and LA option (each time both the hardware option and software license), the overall price reaches the 1000 EUR barrier and beyond.

I wonder if that price point is still competitive, or if there are other more appealing options at the competitors for an oscilloscope with AWG and LA options?


i think that their reasoning was that you may have many scopes at fixed positions, but not everybody may need the AWG at the same time so one hardware -> multiple scopes? seems kinda dumb but whatever... i've seen far worse AWGs come for much more money
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 29, 2017, 06:53:52 pm
It makes perfect sense that Siglent offers all three options in two parts excepting MSO.

Customers might have a WiFi dongle that works with the DSO so only need the SW activation.

Same principle for the AWG, so why buy the single channel USB AWG that BTW has a limited output range (p-p) if you already have a standalone Siglent AWG  The literature indicates it can control all existing Siglent AWG's, SDG1032X works fine with it, Bode plots and all.
Yes 2 parts for this option makes perfect sense too.

The MSO option is the unknown as yet we know so little about it. There are no pics online of the HW in the datasheet or manual only a few screenshots of usage near the end of the manual, one of which shows decoding of a Hexadecimal logic bus.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Pitrsek on November 29, 2017, 07:08:07 pm
Do we know whether the MSO option is capable of bus decoding from the logic pod?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 29, 2017, 07:09:16 pm
Yes it does.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 29, 2017, 07:11:33 pm
Yes it does.
Seeing is believing. Siglent promised that as well (I specifically asked for it!) when they released the SDS2000 but decoding the digital channels didn't work.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: JPortici on November 29, 2017, 07:16:51 pm
Same principle for the AWG, so why buy the single channel USB AWG that BTW has a limited output range (p-p) if you already have a standalone Siglent AWG  The literature indicates it can control all existing Siglent AWG's, SDG1032X works fine with it, Bode plots and all.
Yes 2 parts for this option makes perfect sense too.

huh, i didn't know that. makes sense i guess
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 29, 2017, 07:19:06 pm
I think the FG SW option is not a requirement for Bode Plot
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 29, 2017, 07:36:06 pm
I think the FG SW option is not a requirement for Bode Plot
Hard to know for sure as new units will have trial licences for all the SW options.
My beta unit has permanent licensing so I can't test this.

Thinking about it, the AWG SW maybe controls the standalone AWG too for Bode plots.
Use a unit without AWG permanent option with standalone AWG , do Bode plot and look for reduction in trial usage #'s.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on November 29, 2017, 08:17:49 pm
Same principle for the AWG, so why buy the single channel USB AWG that BTW has a limited output range (p-p) if you already have a standalone Siglent AWG  The literature indicates it can control all existing Siglent AWG's, SDG1032X works fine with it, Bode plots and all.
Yes 2 parts for this option makes perfect sense too.
If it can drive a Siglent AWG that the customer already owns, there should be no extra license to use it.  Siglent should charge only for the AWG Hardware.  It is a really bad marketing decision if they are charging for the software on the scope if it is driving a Siglent AWG.  If it is to drive a non-Siglent AWG, maybe they can charge for it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 29, 2017, 09:11:24 pm
Same principle for the AWG, so why buy the single channel USB AWG that BTW has a limited output range (p-p) if you already have a standalone Siglent AWG  The literature indicates it can control all existing Siglent AWG's, SDG1032X works fine with it, Bode plots and all.
Yes 2 parts for this option makes perfect sense too.
If it can drive a Siglent AWG that the customer already owns, there should be no extra license to use it.  Siglent should charge only for the AWG Hardware.  It is a really bad marketing decision if they are charging for the software on the scope if it is driving a Siglent AWG. 
Good point.
Let's see how this develops, maybe that will be revised.

Quote
If it is to drive a non-Siglent AWG, maybe they can charge for it.
Maybe ?  :-//
It's very unlikely command protocols will work with other brands.

When doing Bode plots the AWG is swept through many frequencies/second so commands must be correct.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: IAmBack on November 29, 2017, 10:37:12 pm
a very nice thing keysight 3000x can do compared to scopes in simillar and lower class is that it can decode CAN and apply a dbc file to the decoded data (so ID 0xABCD will read as "Engine ECU #1" for example)
can this siglent or any siglent do that? makes it a lot easier to interpret data before going to a canbus analyzer... (if none can, please appropriate people, take note..)

by the way i was looking at simone's video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A)

liking what i'm seeing so far..
It'd be nice to look at some high speed SPI and see how good/bad is it when reducing the timebase. I'd be happy to test it myself or bring a board to test but i have no reason to come to bologna before the new year, i'm busy all weekends... (well i'll probably be there at new year's but no work, all play :) )
Please feel free to come to visit us!
Could You please show us, how 100M and 200M units display the same signal (eg. 25/50/75M square wave)?
I'm thinking about one of these, but I'm not sure how much 200M in reality differs from 100M...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: hexpope on November 30, 2017, 12:08:47 am
I just ordered one from the EU, I am wondering and can't figure it out. Can you have a gen function on one of the outputs with a software license only or do you have to buy the license and the hardware module to have wave gen?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 30, 2017, 12:35:33 am
I just ordered one from the EU, I am wondering and can't figure it out. Can you have a gen function on one of the outputs with a software license only or do you have to buy the license and the hardware module to have wave gen?
There is NO inbuilt AWG. The optional 25 MHz external AWG is USB powered and controlled by the scope. For this you need buy the HW and SW.

You can see it on this link near the bottom of the page on the right.
http://www.siglenteu.com/pdxx.aspx?id=2771&T=2&tid=1 (http://www.siglenteu.com/pdxx.aspx?id=2771&T=2&tid=1)

So if you already have a Siglent SDG**** AWG then you would only need to buy the AWG SW option.
Edit.
Above last sentence is true for Bode plot usage only, not general Siglent AWG control usage.


Please see reply #386
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 30, 2017, 01:41:43 am
a very nice thing keysight 3000x can do compared to scopes in simillar and lower class is that it can decode CAN and apply a dbc file to the decoded data (so ID 0xABCD will read as "Engine ECU #1" for example)
can this siglent or any siglent do that? makes it a lot easier to interpret data before going to a canbus analyzer... (if none can, please appropriate people, take note..)

by the way i was looking at simone's video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A)

liking what i'm seeing so far..
It'd be nice to look at some high speed SPI and see how good/bad is it when reducing the timebase. I'd be happy to test it myself or bring a board to test but i have no reason to come to bologna before the new year, i'm busy all weekends... (well i'll probably be there at new year's but no work, all play :) )
Please feel free to come to visit us!
Could You please show us, how 100M and 200M units display the same signal (eg. 25/50/75M square wave)?
I'm thinking about one of these, but I'm not sure how much 200M in reality differs from 100M...
Above is very poor connection techniques to even attempt to show signal fidelity.
Some lessons can be learnt from this thread on the pitfalls of displaying square waves.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/show-us-your-square-wave/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/show-us-your-square-wave/)

For reference a screenshot from the above video.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=375052)

Compare with:
SDG1032X, 20 MHz, cheap Siglent BNC cable and terminated into also cheapish Pintek 50 \$\Omega\$ 2GHz feedthrough.
Scope SDS1104X-E 100 MHz
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=375054)

Edit to add.
I have always used Tek 1x 50 \$\Omega\$ BNC feedthrough but a new Pintek one bought recently offers less square wave attenuation so is now my first choice.
http://www.pintek.com.tw/product_detail/landersound/index.php?Product_SN=19282&PHPSESSID=344qv7ar5g7s19evvgtktt76l4&Company_SN=6002&Product_Site_Classify_SN=17075 (http://www.pintek.com.tw/product_detail/landersound/index.php?Product_SN=19282&PHPSESSID=344qv7ar5g7s19evvgtktt76l4&Company_SN=6002&Product_Site_Classify_SN=17075)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: alreadystarted on November 30, 2017, 02:34:21 am
So if you already have a Siglent SDG**** AWG then you would only need to buy the AWG SW option.
Edit.
Above last sentence is true for Bode plot usage only, not general Siglent AWG control usage.

That's really disappointing to have to purchase the software license even if you already have a Siglent AWG, those are not cheap.  I see the license price is $109, seems like a heavy punishment for existing customers.

Edit: This may be incorrect.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 30, 2017, 03:13:31 am
So if you already have a Siglent SDG**** AWG then you would only need to buy the AWG SW option.
Edit.
Above last sentence is true for Bode plot usage only, not general Siglent AWG control usage.

That's really disappointing to have to purchase the software license even if you already have a Siglent AWG, those are not cheap.  I see the license price is $109, seems like a heavy punishment for existing customers.
I mentioned I can't test this to be sure until new stock arrives.

Siglent sent me this:
1. Siglent SDG**** AWG don't need to buy the SW option.
2. SDS1004X-E also can't control the SDG*** AWG.
Only the SAG1021 hardware module can be controlled by SDS1004X-E.


1. I take this to mean any Siglent SDG**** can be used for Bode plot.
2. DSO can only control SDG**** for Bode plot usage.

So it may seem that the AWG SW option is only needed for general AWG usage control of the SAG1021 HW.
Please Siglent confirm.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: alreadystarted on November 30, 2017, 03:56:53 am
I mentioned I can't test this to be sure until new stock arrives.

Siglent sent me this:
1. Siglent SDG**** AWG don't need to buy the SW option.
2. SDS1004X-E also can't control the SDG*** AWG.
Only the SAG1021 hardware module can be controlled by SDS1004X-E.


1. I take this to mean any Siglent SDG**** can be used for Bode plot.
2. DSO can only control SDG**** for Bode plot usage.

So it may seem that the AWG SW option is only needed for general AWG usage control of the SAG1021 HW.
Please Siglent confirm.

That would be completely reasonable.  There’s not really a need to control a separate box, as long as the Bode plot function is supported.  Please confirm when you can for us.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 30, 2017, 07:02:10 am
Time ago somewhere here was discussed about vertical offset setting when change V/div setting when channel mode is DC.

It was really frustrating to turn Vertical position  (offset) if example look some ripple etc over DC and need change V/div for look more "close" this ripple or what ever riding on DC  and need also watch DC level or very low frequencies what need mostly that channel is DC coupled.

Now in SDS1kX-E 4-chan  have solution for this.
Lets hope they implement this feature also to 2 channel models FW.
Is it right place that this selection is under Utility menu is other question. So or so, but this feature is good to have.

There is available now fixed offset voltage setting. User can select fixed Voltage offset or this Fixed "position" offset what have been there previously as fixed default).
Fixed voltage offset means that it keep offset voltage constant when you change V/div.

Example (in image) there is small signal (or ripple or what ever) riding over 1.5V DC.
I have set 1.5V fixed vertical offset.
First image just example with 100mV/div (ans also slow timebase, nite it can still measure rise time with 1ns resolution)
Then next image I want change V/div for look better this "ripple". I turn it to 10mV/div
I do not need now turn nearly endless this vertical position adjustment when I change V/div. I can change to what ever V/div and offset is fixed 1.5V. (in this image I have also changed time base but this is not relevant for this offset feature.)
Previously it was some times really frustrating to use time for turning this vert, position all time when change V/div.

There is also available fixed delay time setting but this is other story.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Performa01 on November 30, 2017, 08:25:19 am
Is it right place that this selection is under Utility menu is other question. So or so, but this feature is good to have.

This is only a first shot, not the final solution, which will go even further. Stay tuned ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 30, 2017, 10:54:27 am
Is it right place that this selection is under Utility menu is other question. So or so, but this feature is good to have.

This is only a first shot, not the final solution, which will go even further. Stay tuned ;)

Yes.

One thing what I hope is that Siglent develop zoomed display more nice for eyes.
Least when I use horizontal zoomed window my priority is looking this zoomed window.
It feels bit annoying that display is vertically divided 1:1.  I feel better if zoomed window height is more than unzoomed upper part. Unzoomed upper part is only for select what part of whole waveform I want zoom. But for signal details I look zoomed bottom part. It is much better if this part get more height on display. Example 1/4 for unzoomed and 3/4 for zoomed.  Why user use zoom. Because he want see details. So, who do not show details as good as can.




Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: kahe40 on November 30, 2017, 11:06:23 am
Could You please show us, how 100M and 200M units display the same signal (eg. 25/50/75M square wave)?
I'm thinking about one of these, but I'm not sure how much 200M in reality differs from 100M...
the first difference I see, are 357€ ... (WTF, Rigol1054 sells for 379€, the entire scope)

prices from Batronix are:  1202X-E = 427€   1204X-E = 784€   (VAT and shipping included)
so 357€ more to spend for 2CH more and another ADC, not bad Siglent!

The 1104X-E is 510€, so 274€ more only for the 200M Bw?

I hope it can be hacked, otherwise I have to wait for the new Rigols.
They should bring the 1054 to the next level, 2GSa one CH and each CH with 500MSa?
Would be a DS2072A with 4CH for roundabout 1000€ - maybe only a dream?
And 10bit, please   :-))
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Performa01 on November 30, 2017, 11:51:22 am
One thing what I hope is that Siglent develop zoomed display more nice for eyes.
Least when I use horizontal zoomed window my priority is looking this zoomed window.
It feels bit annoying that display is vertically divided 1:1.  I feel better if zoomed window height is more than unzoomed upper part. Unzoomed upper part is only for select what part of whole waveform I want zoom. But for signal details I look zoomed bottom part. It is much better if this part get more height on display. Example 1/4 for unzoomed and 3/4 for zoomed.  Why user use zoom. Because he want see details. So, who do not show details as good as can.

I agree, yet it might not be that simple a decision.

Full display means 1 ADC LSB = 2 screen pixels.
Split display (50 + 50% as it is now) means 1 ADC LSB = 1 screen pixel.

Split display (25 + 75%) means ...
Optical appearance of the trace rendition as well as performance might suffer.

Have you ever talked to Siglent about this request?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: pascal_sweden on November 30, 2017, 06:12:10 pm
Cool to hear that it works with an existing AWG! I have access to an SDG1025 :)

Still not entirely clear whether I would need a software license option or not, and for which functionality.

And why does Siglent write "SDS1004X-E can't control the SDG**** AWG"? If the scope can't control the AWG, how can it generate a Bode plot? :)
The scope should be able to control the AWG in order to generate a Bode plot.

Or do they mean that it can't control *ALL* parameters of the AWG, and just a minimal set of parameters to generate a Bode plot?
What would that minimal set be? Frequency/Amplitude/Phase parameters applied on a standard Sine wave?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 30, 2017, 06:47:06 pm
So if you already have a Siglent SDG**** AWG then you would only need to buy the AWG SW option.
Edit.
Above last sentence is true for Bode plot usage only, not general Siglent AWG control usage.

That's really disappointing to have to purchase the software license even if you already have a Siglent AWG, those are not cheap.  I see the license price is $109, seems like a heavy punishment for existing customers.

Edit: This may be incorrect.
No need of FG software option for Bode Plot
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Siglent America on November 30, 2017, 09:38:20 pm
So if you already have a Siglent SDG**** AWG then you would only need to buy the AWG SW option.
Edit.
Above last sentence is true for Bode plot usage only, not general Siglent AWG control usage.

That's really disappointing to have to purchase the software license even if you already have a Siglent AWG, those are not cheap.  I see the license price is $109, seems like a heavy punishment for existing customers.

Edit: This may be incorrect.
No need of FG software option for Bode Plot

You are correct.
You can use an external Siglent SDG to make your Bode Plots without having to use the software (FW) option. The SDG is connected to the SDS1XX4X-E scope via USB and SCPI commands are sent to it from the scope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: gray on December 01, 2017, 12:54:00 am
I have been watching development around new Siglent scopes for some time. Considering SDS1104X-E.

Have a question. The WiFi adapter for 4-channel scopes on Siglent US site http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-detailxx.aspx?id=5109&tid=1&T=2 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-detailxx.aspx?id=5109&tid=1&T=2) is listed as TL_WN725N. Google resolves it as TP-Link N150 Wireless Nano USB Adapter (TL-WN725N) listed on Amazon for $7.99. Can someone with the scope check if this TP-Link in fact works? Does WiFi option require license fees?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 01, 2017, 02:01:48 am
I have been watching development around new Siglent scopes for some time. Considering SDS1104X-E.

Have a question. The WiFi adapter for 4-channel scopes on Siglent US site http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-detailxx.aspx?id=5109&tid=1&T=2 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-detailxx.aspx?id=5109&tid=1&T=2) is listed as TL_WN725N. Google resolves it as TP-Link N150 Wireless Nano USB Adapter (TL-WN725N) listed on Amazon for $7.99. Can someone with the scope check if this TP-Link in fact works? Does WiFi option require license fees?
Welcome to the forum.

Yes and yes, but mine does have a permanent WiFi option. It should work with the option Trial usages until there are none left. You can purchase any option later from your dealer if/when required.
I've only tried the gold version as was recommended by my contacts at Siglent and it was plug and play, no problems at all.
My experience was outlined in reply #352
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: gray on December 01, 2017, 02:32:14 am
So, let me get it straight. $49 paid for WiFi adapter buys an adapter and a license key? On top of that, one needs to buy a software for $69 (prices taken from Saelig site)? Somewhat steep.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 01, 2017, 02:50:12 am
So, let me get it straight. $49 paid for WiFi adapter buys an adapter and a license key?
No, just the WiFi adapter/dongle at Siglent retail price.  :(

Quote
On top of that, one needs to buy a software for $69 (prices taken from Saelig site)? Somewhat steep.
You just need buy the SW (license key) IF you can source the dongle cheaper elsewhere.

But not all will need WiFi connectivity as the LAN port accomplishes the same functionality.
I found it there was no advantage IF you had access to a wired LAN.

As time passes other WiFi dongles will be tried and a list of 'working' ones made.
The silver (not gold) version of TL-WN725N may work fine too, we just don't know yet.

For quick and easy small size (Kb's) screenshots, a USB stick is still the most convenient.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: gray on December 01, 2017, 03:08:45 am
So, let me get it straight. $49 paid for WiFi adapter buys an adapter and a license key?
No, just the WiFi adapter/dongle at Siglent retail price.  :(

OK, this makes life a little easier. $8 is better than $49 :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Giuss on December 01, 2017, 12:30:39 pm
a very nice thing keysight 3000x can do compared to scopes in simillar and lower class is that it can decode CAN and apply a dbc file to the decoded data (so ID 0xABCD will read as "Engine ECU #1" for example)
can this siglent or any siglent do that? makes it a lot easier to interpret data before going to a canbus analyzer... (if none can, please appropriate people, take note..)

by the way i was looking at simone's video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A)

liking what i'm seeing so far..
It'd be nice to look at some high speed SPI and see how good/bad is it when reducing the timebase. I'd be happy to test it myself or bring a board to test but i have no reason to come to bologna before the new year, i'm busy all weekends... (well i'll probably be there at new year's but no work, all play :) )

I'd like to see a similar video for the 1104 with a 100mhz input signal and also a video with SPI decoding
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: epongenoir on December 01, 2017, 02:10:37 pm
I'll probably test SPI this evening, mine arrived yesterday (sds1104x-e)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on December 01, 2017, 02:21:28 pm
a very nice thing keysight 3000x can do compared to scopes in simillar and lower class is that it can decode CAN and apply a dbc file to the decoded data (so ID 0xABCD will read as "Engine ECU #1" for example)
can this siglent or any siglent do that? makes it a lot easier to interpret data before going to a canbus analyzer... (if none can, please appropriate people, take note..)

by the way i was looking at simone's video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A)

liking what i'm seeing so far..
It'd be nice to look at some high speed SPI and see how good/bad is it when reducing the timebase. I'd be happy to test it myself or bring a board to test but i have no reason to come to bologna before the new year, i'm busy all weekends... (well i'll probably be there at new year's but no work, all play :) )

I'd like to see a similar video for the 1104 with a 100mhz input signal and also a video with SPI decoding

All functions and other things are indentical between SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E.  All is similar. All works similar.
There is one - just exactly one - difference. Analog front end before AD converters analog frequency bandwidth is different. Every other things are equal exactly.  Difference can see in risetime  what is just same as frequency response. Other thing is that 200MHz have bit more natural noise due to more wide BW. With SPI decoding you can not see any difference between these models until  exept if signal is so fast that frequency BW come important.
100MHz model may be even better than 200MHz model because Nyquist if use it so that sampling speed is 500MSa/s.  200MHz is just 1.25 x fNyquist what is barely enough IF signal is pure sine wave and very good quality Sin(x)/x filtering is in use. If signal have some frequency components what goes over 250MHz it produce aliasing, also barely over 200MHz start show some bad effects due to facxt that Sinc interpolation (filter) is done using only small amount of data. 
Because BW response shape is gaussian type, also too near Nyquist and over Nyquist limit frequency components can go to ADC and produce aliasing and bit under Nyquist also start example level wobbling and or corners wobbling if pulse type wave have these too high harmonics components.

100MHz model -3dB BW response corner is around 110MHz (in my measurement with single individual unit) and signal is highly attenuated well below f Nyquist. Also it looks like BW shape is more steep over 100MHz than what is example in  some previous models. And this is good thing - even when some peoples (mostly noobs) "admire" higher bandwidths in slow speed sampling real time oscilloscopes. (way or other repetitive sampling is different case)

One wink for modifiers and hackers. Make your scope better - reduce BW enough low (related to f Nyquist) and make BW shape after corner frequency for more steep decay.   Most reliable and quality works can do with max flat and brickwall shape BW. Even if it bit reduce rise times. 
200MHz model is barely ok but really in "border line" if more than 2 channels is in use and only if 200MHz signal is enough near  sine wave.     
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on December 01, 2017, 03:23:35 pm
There is one - just exactly one - difference. Analog front end before AD converters analog frequency bandwidth is different. Every other things are equal exactly. 
It means no software hack from 100MHz to 200MHz model :(
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on December 01, 2017, 03:36:40 pm
It means no software hack from 100MHz to 200MHz model :(
I did not say that.

Who knows how analog front end BW is adjusted ;)







Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on December 01, 2017, 03:47:29 pm
It means no software hack from 100MHz to 200MHz model :(
I did not say that.

Who knows how analog front end BW is adjusted ;)
Then at the component level they are the same
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: IAmBack on December 01, 2017, 03:50:40 pm
And what about probe compensation issue (known from 2ch model)? Is it "available" in 4ch models?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on December 01, 2017, 05:06:21 pm
And what about probe compensation issue (known from 2ch model)? Is it "available" in 4ch models?

Not available. Also not available in new 2 channel models out from factory. (no missing capacitor anymore. Why it was missing from its original designed place, "who knows".)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on December 01, 2017, 08:50:10 pm
And what about probe compensation issue (known from 2ch model)? Is it "available" in 4ch models?
Not available. Also not available in new 2 channel models out from factory. (no missing capacitor anymore)

That's very comforting.

(Gee, I hope they remembered all the other ones...have you checked?)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on December 01, 2017, 09:11:19 pm
And what about probe compensation issue (known from 2ch model)? Is it "available" in 4ch models?
Not available. Also not available in new 2 channel models out from factory. (no missing capacitor anymore. Why it was missing from its original designed place, "who knows".)
The reason is obvious: even China suffers from the plague called bean counters or worse: some good old Muntzing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntzing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntzing) ! Or let's move over to a bed time story from Bob Pease: http://www.electronicdesign.com/boards/whats-all-muntzing-stuff-anyhow (http://www.electronicdesign.com/boards/whats-all-muntzing-stuff-anyhow)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: maddin on December 01, 2017, 10:46:41 pm
Standard delivery:
- oscilloscope
- 4 passive probes
- power cable
- usb cable
- certificate

No printed manual in the standard delivery ?
I know that i can download it from Siglent homepage, but sometimes i would prefer real paper instead reading on monitor. 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: hexpope on December 01, 2017, 10:48:15 pm
I was thinking this myself yesterday when I saw the photo posted.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 01, 2017, 11:52:33 pm
On new to market products we have occasionally received them without manuals but following shipment always have them.
It's only the Quick Start, a real condensed user manual that for an experienced scope user is usually ignored anyway.
The full manual is on the CD along with the programming guide and any software that's applicable to the product.
All the docs are here:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-wd.aspx?id=5109&tid=1&T=2 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-wd.aspx?id=5109&tid=1&T=2)

Software here:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-gjjrj.aspx?id=5109&tid=1&T=2 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-gjjrj.aspx?id=5109&tid=1&T=2)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nimish on December 02, 2017, 09:32:42 pm
So, let me get it straight. $49 paid for WiFi adapter buys an adapter and a license key?
No, just the WiFi adapter/dongle at Siglent retail price.  :(

Quote
On top of that, one needs to buy a software for $69 (prices taken from Saelig site)? Somewhat steep.
You just need buy the SW (license key) IF you can source the dongle cheaper elsewhere.

But not all will need WiFi connectivity as the LAN port accomplishes the same functionality.
I found it there was no advantage IF you had access to a wired LAN.

As time passes other WiFi dongles will be tried and a list of 'working' ones made.
The silver (not gold) version of TL-WN725N may work fine too, we just don't know yet.

For quick and easy small size (Kb's) screenshots, a USB stick is still the most convenient.

Now THIS is nickel and diming -- it's not like siglent is developing a wifi driver, they're just gonna use the same kernel module that red pitaya or anyone else who buys a Zynq would get in the BSP.

I can understand charging for the logic analyzer and the AWG but for wifi it's a bit much. Hopefully the firmware can be hacked to enable wifi regardless.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: hexpope on December 02, 2017, 09:38:05 pm
Quote
Now THIS is nickel and diming -- it's not like siglent is developing a wifi driver, they're just gonna use the same kernel module that red pitaya or anyone else who buys a Zynq would get in the BSP.

I can understand charging for the logic analyzer and the AWG but for wifi it's a bit much. Hopefully the firmware can be hacked to enable wifi regardless.

I bought the 100mhz version. So it will be interesting to see if this indeed can be hacked up to 200mhz and other options.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 04, 2017, 07:46:07 am
Can someone please do a real test on the decoder functionality in the oscilloscope?
Some basic/simple SPI decoding screenshots FYI

Protocol source = Siglents STB3
http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-fjxx.aspx?fjid=4990&id=5109&tid=1&T=2 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-fjxx.aspx?fjid=4990&id=5109&tid=1&T=2)
Only MOSI channel available.

Settings
Ch3 ~CS, Falling edge trigger
Ch2 Clk
C1 MOSI Data

Standard supplied probes used.
Various menus shown or hidden.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376339)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376341)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376343)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376345)

So let's now sloooow the timebase down and use its Zoom and turn the event table ON.
Note scroll bar position and event #.....and that's 50% through the list.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376347)
Menu hidden
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376349)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on December 04, 2017, 08:35:57 am
Self explanating

(https://i.imgur.com/rDiaZ4o.png)


Edit:

Correction - clarify.
Bode plot is standard function but it is not usable without external compatible "optional" generator.
Oscilloscope do not have internal signal generator.
So it do nothing if user do not have compatible generator (exept it tell that failed to connect to AWG).
Function generator can be also some other compatible Siglent AWG than just SDS1000X-E Option SAG1021.

Example if user have SDG1032X (this I have tested) it works and no need oscilloscope AWG control licence option SDS1000X-E-FG.
Just connect cables and run Bode Plot. Signal generator works under full control of oscilloscope bode plot function. No need touch SDG front panel at all. Same for other compatible Siglent generators.


Shortly:
Out from box, oscilloscope itself have Bode plot function what is standard function. It is not usable without external generator.
Using Bode Plot need external optional AWG. It can be SDS1000X-E Option SAG1021 or what ever other but compatible Siglent AWG.


edit:corrected some errors in compare table
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 04, 2017, 08:57:03 am
Self explanating

Bode plot (optional)
Are you sure ?
No mention of this in the datasheet or manual if a standalone Siglent AWG is used for Bode plots.
Some previous discussion in post #385

The SAG1021 USB AWG is indeed optional and this too can be used for the Bode plot signal source.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on December 04, 2017, 08:58:39 am
Bode Plot is not optional, it is standard, press utility button and you find it
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 04, 2017, 09:06:18 am
Bode Plot is not optional, it is standard, press utility button and you find it
I assume you're going to need a signal generator, right? Whether it's the optional unit or another discrete device.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on December 04, 2017, 09:08:52 am
Yes correct, SAG1020 or other Siglent generators
from the user manual:
The bode plot application for the SDS1000X-E (only 4 channels scope supports this application) controls a external arbitrary waveform generator(AWG, only the Siglent’s arbitrary waveform generator can be supported ) to sweep a sine wave across a range of frequencies while measuring the input to and output from a device under test (DUT). At each frequency, gain and phase are measured and plotted on a Bode chart.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 04, 2017, 09:28:50 am
Yes correct, SAG1020 or other Siglent generators
from the user manual:
The bode plot application for the SDS1000X-E (only 4 channels scope supports this application) controls a external arbitrary waveform generator(AWG, only the Siglent’s arbitrary waveform generator can be supported ) to sweep a sine wave across a range of frequencies while measuring the input to and output from a device under test (DUT). At each frequency, gain and phase are measured and plotted on a Bode chart.
Considering the hardware required for a bode plot is optional, it's not unreasonable to say bode plots are therefore optional :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on December 04, 2017, 11:50:50 am
Clarified/corrected previous msg things related to Bode Plot.
( https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1366057/#msg1366057 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1366057/#msg1366057)  )
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on December 04, 2017, 07:56:35 pm
Here is simple BodePlot (and really poor messy hand woven RC) in bit noisy environment and perhaps poor setup BodePlot settings.
It have three different resolution (steps), low, middle and high. 21, 101 and 501 points. In image 501 points in use.

Generator is SDG1032X

Just connect USB and BodePlot function automatically do all setups for SDG. No need touch SDG  at all (exept cables and power on)

Also example external load impedance is adjustable between 50, 75, 600ohm and Hi-Z.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376464;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376466;image)






Last image is just totally only playing like kid for show that there can also set more DUT outputs.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376482;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 04, 2017, 08:03:36 pm
Here is simple BodePlot (and really poor messy hand woven RC) in bit noisy environment and perhaps poor setup BodePlot settings.
It have three different resolution (steps), low, middle and high. 21, 101 and 501 points. In image 501 points in use.

Generator is SDG1032X

Just connect USB and BodePlot function automatically do all setups for SDG. No need touch SDG  at all (exept cables and power on)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376464;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376466;image)
I found performance could be improved (speed) by reassigning Bode plot channels to use both ADC's instead of using default Bode plot channels 1 and 2.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: insine on December 04, 2017, 09:31:36 pm
Why there is no N-th edge trigger?
Is Siglent planning to add it?

Also, I found in the datasheet, there are no edge count and pulse count measurements. It would be nice to have these.

UART decoding seems to be limited to 334000baud? 10Mbaud would be nicer :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 05, 2017, 07:54:54 am
UART decoding seems to be limited to 334000baud? 10Mbaud would be nicer :)
A check with my beta unit shows UART 5Mbaud custom setting is available BUT this needs confirmation from a fresh to market unit. Possibly there were last minute tweaks to firmware prior to release.

Some simple UART decode.
Source Siglent STB3
Connection with standard probes

Ch1 falling edge trigger, Holdoff close (80ns)
While the first screenshot doesn't show it, triggering was unstable and addition holdoff was added to restrict triggering until after a packet of data.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376569)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376571)

Decode ON
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376573)

Panning the decode in Zoom mode
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376575)

640 events in the decode table.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376577)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on December 05, 2017, 08:20:47 am
UART decoding seems to be limited to 334000baud? 10Mbaud would be nicer :)
A check with my beta unit shows UART 5Mbaud custom setting is available BUT this needs confirmation from a fresh to market unit. Possibly there were last minute tweaks to firmware prior to release.



I have FW version 7.6.1.12
FPGA version 2017-11-07

UART custom speed Max 5M

What is your version?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 05, 2017, 08:25:23 am
UART decoding seems to be limited to 334000baud? 10Mbaud would be nicer :)
A check with my beta unit shows UART 5Mbaud custom setting is available BUT this needs confirmation from a fresh to market unit. Possibly there were last minute tweaks to firmware prior to release.



I have FW version 7.6.1.12
FPGA version 2017-11-07

UART custom speed Max 5M

What is your version?
FW version = same.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: toomuchesr on December 06, 2017, 03:27:40 pm
SDS1104X-E: € 510,51

AWG + Software Option for it: € 165.41 + € 113.05 = € 304.46
Hmmm, I guess this price is ok but no cheap. I assume you will find a standalone ARB that performs better for the same money.

Logic Analyser Probes + Software Option: € 342.72  + € 113.05 = € 455.77
I don't get it. Just judging from the product photo, the probes do not look like high quality stuff. I assume the whole sampling electronic in the little boxes, or is it just a bunch of (super "expensive") passive components?

(Prices from https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html))
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on December 06, 2017, 03:31:02 pm
The logic probe image is not the SLA1016 , it is the SPL2016
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on December 06, 2017, 03:35:28 pm
I don't get it. Just judging from the product photo, the probes do not look like high quality stuff. I assume the whole sampling electronic in the little boxes, or is it just a bunch of (super "expensive") passive components?

Normally they have comparators with selectable reference voltage so you can work with 5V/3.3V/etc.

Not cheap, but not $300 either.

(does anybody know the exact chips they use?)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 06, 2017, 05:05:28 pm
SDS1104X-E: € 510,51

AWG + Software Option for it: € 165.41 + € 113.05 = € 304.46
Hmmm, I guess this price is ok but no cheap. I assume you will find a standalone ARB that performs better for the same money.

Logic Analyser Probes + Software Option: € 342.72  + € 113.05 = € 455.77
I don't get it. Just judging from the product photo, the probes do not look like high quality stuff. I assume the whole sampling electronic in the little boxes, or is it just a bunch of (super "expensive") passive components?

(Prices from https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html))
The image on the Batronix site is of the LA probeset for SDS2000X series NOT for SDS1*04X-E.
Pricing is for both is similar and if the probeset is of the same quality as for 2000X it is much superior to the cheap ribbon cable probesets used before.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Pitrsek on December 06, 2017, 08:55:45 pm
First observations with 1104X-E - bode plot is not autoranging on the DUT channel, which is kinda lame. CSV export from bode is empty. Bode does not work with rebranded siglent AWG. I might try to push siglent fw on the AWG.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on December 06, 2017, 09:49:03 pm
First observations with 1104X-E - bode plot is not autoranging on the DUT channel, which is kinda lame. CSV export from bode is empty. Bode does not work with rebranded siglent AWG. I might try to push siglent fw on the AWG.

In this test data is crap (not real test with DUT and not made any designed settings)), this is done only for get "what ever" .CSV out after it have done BP. Attached this .csv. Edit file name so that remove last .txt and it is just this original SDS00002_bode.csv from SDS1104X-E

Autoranging. I do not know what kind of autoranging you think with this but least in my tests plot itself adjust its amplitude and phase scales automatically when it is running and doing plotting if plot goes near border it adjust scale as needed but all this it do only when it is running. If your AWG do not work with it, then you can not see it. Also you do not get data table what it save as .csv.

Edit: add: attached image about plot what is same as this .csv. (here screen is horizontally divided for BP plot and data table. Data table can turn off of course for more wide plot.) (as can see not best settings)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on December 07, 2017, 12:32:58 am
Siglent Bode Plot does not look good, why all the ripple?  I don't think the filter is causing it, so the plot is not a good representation.

Here is the Keysight EDUX1002G bode plot (50 ohm passthrough connector) to compare...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376964;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 07, 2017, 04:47:48 am
Siglent Bode Plot does not look good, why all the ripple?  I don't think the filter is causing it, so the plot is not a good representation.

Here is the Keysight EDUX1002G bode plot (50 ohm passthrough connector) to compare...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376964;image)
Not good ?  :-//
It's showing a magnitude higher resolution. If the KS was set to the same parameters, what will it show ?

Are you using a 10:1 probe for connection ? Why ?  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Pitrsek on December 07, 2017, 05:43:58 am
Auto ranging - in regard with input sensitivity. When you start, the ref channel sensitivity is automatically set for maximal resolution, the DUT channel is set to what ever you have set it. Then you start to sweep, DUT signal is getting smaller and smaller, but DUT channel sensitivity is still the same. If the scope would change sensitivity settings as needed, you would get way better amplitude resolution. You'd probably need some king of calibration routine tough.

I'll look into csv export some more, but we were getting just empty csv file on the usb drive.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on December 07, 2017, 05:49:32 am
I have bought few Minicircuit low pass filters SLP-50+ , 50Ohm adapters, SMA connectors etc ... to create a nice test setup. Unfortunately it seems I will not get them before Xmas :( I hope to post a video about it as soon as possible .
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on December 07, 2017, 06:42:41 am
Siglent Bode Plot does not look good, why all the ripple?  I don't think the filter is causing it, so the plot is not a good representation.

Here is the Keysight EDUX1002G bode plot (50 ohm passthrough connector) to compare...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376964;image)

Do you have thos your Bode Plot data table .csv? How many data points it have?


Here Attached Siglent image what you perhaps like more. Now also scales are roughly around same on the screen.

I do not know how many data pints Keysight use. If I remember right not so many.
Big difference is that KS use its internal signal generator.  Siglent use external and in my case not even this SAG1021 what you can see SDS1104X-E data sheets and ad's. I use here in this case Siglent SDG1032X what oscilloscope is controlling via USB command bus. It is perhaps possible that in some cases this signal generator produce some glitches or not. Also my SDS1032X is not factory original out from box. It is experimentally tweaked out from its specifications.

As you can see in my previous image, it was done ONLY for show that it can save bode plot data to usb memory using .CSV  data format. For this I did not any real cabeling to any real DUT. Just random wires on my board.

Then example level. As @tautech noted there is very very different scale. We have 8bit ADC, in KS and in Sig. What you think when you magnify scale so that one resolution step is more than display resolution.

This is more comparable with Keysight bode plot including tiny amount of data points (Siglent set for most low amount of data points)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=377020;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 10, 2017, 01:25:43 am
Search Feature exercise

Slope Glitch
Source Siglent STB3, 10x probe
Description: On the negative edge of a 156 kHz square wave, a step having a 200ns width adds to the overall fall time of the edge.

It can sometimes be seen as an irregular part of the falling edge of a square wave but can't be captured with a screenshot.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=377820)

Some Persistence and Colour added shows it's certainly there.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=377822)

So let's try and find it with Search.....also possible with Trigger settings but then we wouldn't know if was irregular or not.
Search Menu and let's use a Pulse search
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=377824)

And set the period for less than the positive pulse width
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=377826)

Still no hits  :-// ah, set the Level.....but they scroll across the display.  ???
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=377828)

Copy settings to Trigger, now we have five events and one directly under the Horizontal position indicator
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=377830)

STOP and timebase increased.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=377832)


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Pitrsek on December 13, 2017, 08:24:45 pm
A friend loaned me the scope for a test drive. We'll se how it fares  :).
Feature suggestion/request:
Would it be possible to make back BNC trigger bidirectional? So it can be used as trigger-in?
Full screen mode - make measurements and scale setting semitransparent(selectabe) and extend the picture to whole screen. The screen is small as it is.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 13, 2017, 09:54:08 pm
A friend loaned me the scope for a test drive. We'll se how it fares  :).
Feature suggestion/request:
Would it be possible to make back BNC trigger bidirectional? So it can be used as trigger-in?
I don't think the HW configuration will allow it.

The existing rear BNC is for Pass/Fail and Trigger out, both signals that are generated by the scope.

Trigger In or Ext Trig as it's better known as feeds into a different path in the scope and Ext Trig is not common in 4 ch scopes for various reasons....cost, real estate room and it's common to just use a spare channel.

However Ext Trig is common in 2 channel scopes.

For those that need 4 channels and Ext Trig there are other models available in the Siglent range, the SDS2000X series.
(http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Picture/Product/SDS2000X/15.png)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 16, 2017, 09:29:51 am
And what about probe compensation issue (known from 2ch model)? Is it "available" in 4ch models?
While setting up some probes today I remembered your post so this is how they look.
At 1.2V/div an input relay changes and either with Fine or stepping from 1V/div to 2V/div will show the error as it existed in older 2ch models.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=379508)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=379510)

And while I'm making pretty traces  ::)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=379512)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: kermitfrog on December 21, 2017, 09:13:53 pm
Was considering a 1204, but after watching Dave's teardown videos my impression is that he doesn't think the sampling circuits would keep up very well for the 200mhz models. Did anyone else see this on the video? Maybe I should just get the 1104 instead and save some $ if that is the case? As far as I can tell the 1104 has the same specs and options etc as the 1204 with the exception of the 200mhz vs 100mhz, unless I missed something. After seeing the price price for the MSO option, I'm a bit reluctant...another $440 for the MSO option is a bit pricey, and makes the whole thing less affordable for me.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 21, 2017, 09:18:30 pm
Defpom's review.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds-1104x-e-4-channel-scope-my-review-on-youtube/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds-1104x-e-4-channel-scope-my-review-on-youtube/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on January 02, 2018, 07:15:49 pm
Jack Ganssle's quick and short write up of SDS1204X-E:

http://www.ganssle.com/tem/tem341.html#article4 (http://www.ganssle.com/tem/tem341.html#article4)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on January 08, 2018, 09:53:47 am
Hello there! First day in office and finally got the components I was waiting for, a pair of low pass filter which I will use to test the Bode Plot function on the new Siglent 4 channel scopes. I still need some adapters and cables and I should be ready for it. Hope to be ready to post something soon!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Giuss on January 08, 2018, 05:47:42 pm
Hi, I've seen the Rigol DS1054Z now sold with all options unlocked and it costs about 120 Euro less than the SDS1104X, do you think that the Siglent is still a good buy? 
Of course there is a gap for the BW (50Mhz vs 100Mhz) but I don't know if this difference is worth for the price, for hobby use.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on January 08, 2018, 06:20:35 pm
Hi, I've seen the Rigol DS1054Z now sold with all options unlocked and it costs about 120 Euro less than the SDS1104X, do you think that the Siglent is still a good buy? 
Of course there is a gap for the BW (50Mhz vs 100Mhz) but I don't know if this difference is worth for the price, for hobby use.

The Rigol is easy to convert to 100MHz bandwidth, just press the right sequence of buttons on the front panel.  :)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Giuss on January 08, 2018, 08:29:56 pm
Hi, I've seen the Rigol DS1054Z now sold with all options unlocked and it costs about 120 Euro less than the SDS1104X, do you think that the Siglent is still a good buy? 
Of course there is a gap for the BW (50Mhz vs 100Mhz) but I don't know if this difference is worth for the price, for hobby use.

The Rigol is easy to convert to 100MHz bandwidth, just press the right sequence of buttons on the front panel.  :)

Yes I know that.  Probably it is still the best buy in this price range.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on January 08, 2018, 08:59:26 pm
Hi, I've seen the Rigol DS1054Z now sold with all options unlocked and it costs about 120 Euro less than the SDS1104X, do you think that the Siglent is still a good buy? 
Of course there is a gap for the BW (50Mhz vs 100Mhz) but I don't know if this difference is worth for the price, for hobby use.

The Rigol is easy to convert to 100MHz bandwidth, just press the right sequence of buttons on the front panel.  :)
The Rigol is very slow at serial decoding and FFT.  If you need these functions, I think the siglent is a better buy.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MARCOS BR on January 09, 2018, 01:51:32 pm
Greetings to all of Brazil. I use Google translate. I am an old reader of the blog. As a hobby I am a ham radio. Now I decided to participate and ask questions. Soon I want to buy a Digital Oscilloscope, I already had a Hitachi analog oscilloscope, 35 MHz. It was a "disappointment to children's fault" of the "probing" of the SDS1202X-E and SDS1204X-E. It seems to me that in model SDS1202X-e the problem has already been solved. On the question of SDS1204X-E how is the solution?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on January 09, 2018, 07:39:00 pm
Greetings to all of Brazil. I use Google translate. I am an old reader of the blog. As a hobby I am a ham radio. Now I decided to participate and ask questions. Soon I want to buy a Digital Oscilloscope, I already had a Hitachi analog oscilloscope, 35 MHz. It was a "disappointment to children's fault" of the "probing" of the SDS1202X-E and SDS1204X-E. It seems to me that in model SDS1202X-e the problem has already been solved. On the question of SDS1204X-E how is the solution?
Welcome to the forum.

There is no problem with 10x probe compensation in these new 4ch models.
Dave looked at the input stages in his teardown to check both caps are there, they are.

This is mentioned also by other members a few pages back.
My last reply on December 16 demonstrates 10x probe compensation issue is not in these scopes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: exe on January 10, 2018, 08:24:25 pm
Hi, I've seen the Rigol DS1054Z now sold with all options unlocked and it costs about 120 Euro less than the SDS1104X, do you think that the Siglent is still a good buy?

While 120euros may appear to be a lot, in my opinion it doesn't really matter. Buy the one you'll enjoy more (if you use it any frequently) or the one that will better fulfill your needs.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on January 11, 2018, 10:09:39 am
Hi, I've seen the Rigol DS1054Z now sold with all options unlocked and it costs about 120 Euro less than the SDS1104X, do you think that the Siglent is still a good buy?

You could always unlock those options anyway.

Answer: It's your money, it's up to you.

If you bought a new car would you lie awake at night thinking you could have spent 43% more to get the model with leather seats? Both models have aircon and power steering, both models will get you to work every day and carry the exact same amount of shopping.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on January 14, 2018, 03:49:19 am
From another thread:
Siglent Technologies has kindly lent me their new SDS1204X-E oscilloscope (200 MHz, 4 channels) to help the lxi-tools open source effort :-+

I hooked it up, calibrated the 4 included probes, and after enabling the network interface (DHCP) it was easily discovered with lxi-tools.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/open-source-lxi-tools-and-liblxi-v1-0-released-for-gnulinux/?action=dlattach;attach=385242)

It turns out that this is an absolutely blazingly fast scope, especially in terms of LXI/LAN SCPI command processing performance!

With the benchmark feature I'm getting ~300 requests/s via TCP/VXI11:

Code: [Select]
$ lxi benchmark --address 192.168.1.125
Benchmarking by sending 100 ID requests. Please wait...
Result: 301.5 requests/second

And I get ~600 requests/s via TCP/RAW:
Code: [Select]
$ lxi benchmark --raw --address 192.168.1.125
Benchmarking by sending 100 ID requests. Please wait...
Result: 598.9 requests/second

This is quite impressive. Compared, the performance of e.g. the Rigol DS1054Z is ~30 requests/s via TCP/VXI11 and ~160 requests/s via TCP/RAW.

Of course, the faster performance is to be expected from a newly released scope which clearly uses a newer and faster chipset. However, fact still is, it is very fast and it is one of the first low cost scopes that makes it possible to easily implement a poor-mans data logger using LXI/LAN polling that can consistently sample data at e.g. 100 Hz or more.

I also notice that Siglent uses standard LXI ports as defined here: http://www.lxistandard.org/About/LXI-Protocols.aspx (http://www.lxistandard.org/About/LXI-Protocols.aspx)

That is, the available network ports for the SDS1204X-E are:
Code: [Select]
$ nmap -p- 192.168.1.125

Starting Nmap 7.60 ( [url]https://nmap.org[/url] ) at 2018-01-08 15:18 CET
Nmap scan report for 192.168.1.125
Host is up (0.042s latency).
Not shown: 65529 closed ports
PORT     STATE SERVICE
23/tcp   open  telnet
80/tcp   open  http
111/tcp  open  rpcbind
918/tcp  open  unknown
5024/tcp open  scpi-telnet
5025/tcp open  scpi-raw

Nmap done: 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 40.14 seconds

In particular, they use standard port 5025 for SCPI/RAW and port 5024 for SCPI/telnet. This is one of the odd things that Rigol fails to do for the DS1054Z (they place it on non-standard port 5555):

Code: [Select]
$ nmap -p- 192.168.1.210

Starting Nmap 7.60 ( [url]https://nmap.org[/url] ) at 2018-01-08 15:19 CET
Nmap scan report for 192.168.1.210
Host is up (0.080s latency).
Not shown: 65529 closed ports
PORT     STATE SERVICE
80/tcp   open  http
111/tcp  open  rpcbind
617/tcp  open  sco-dtmgr
618/tcp  open  dei-icda
619/tcp  open  compaq-evm
5555/tcp open  freeciv

Nmap done: 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 40.54 seconds

Taking a screenshot with the SDS1204X-E is very fast too:
Code: [Select]
$ time lxi screenshot -a 192.168.1.125
Loaded siglent-sds screenshot plugin
Saved screenshot image to screenshot_192.168.1.125_2018-01-08_15:37:22.bmp

real    0m0,361s
user    0m0,006s
sys     0m0,026s

Only ~0.4 second!

It's also nice to see that the Siglent scope has a small and light form factor which feels solid.

My first impressions are good - I'm looking forward to more testing with this instrument during the development of the GUI frontend for lxi-tools. It will also make a nice addition to the pool of instruments that I plan to use for lxi-tools performance and regression testing.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: epongenoir on January 19, 2018, 10:37:52 pm
I have bought this scope and I love it, but I think I just discovered a bug, which happens in Normal trigger, run mode.

If you need the precise config files to replicate the issue ask, I can post them!

What do you think?

Sorry for the quality, I'm working and I am in a precarious setup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eovy4GQQRUQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eovy4GQQRUQ)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on January 20, 2018, 12:36:27 am
I have bought this scope and I love it, but I think I just discovered a bug, which happens in Normal trigger, run mode.

If you need the precise config files to replicate the issue ask, I can post them!

What do you think?
I'm pretty sure it's not a bug.

Look at the relationship of memory depth, H offset and timebase settings.
As you zoom in, the memory depth reduces and subsequently the amount of H offset available reduces too.
The display message indicates this and I'd expect it to be quite normal behavior.

Think 'data points' and how many are available to work with.  ;)
As you're in Normal triggering you are working with 'saved' data points and behavior will be different with Auto triggering where a "live" stream of data points (memory) will be available for the scope to work with.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Performa01 on January 20, 2018, 03:09:58 am
This is not a bug, just an artificial restriction.

Trigger delay cannot exceed 10000 x the timebase. So at 1µs/div, the max. permissible delay is 10000µs or 10ms.

You can lower the timebase as much as you want in stop mode though, if you really need to examine a very short signal detail that far away from the trigger point.

Instead of lowering the main timebase, you can also use zoom mode as this has absolutely no restriction. Be aware though, that a long trigger delay also generates some additional jitter that is about 0.5ppm of the delay time and this will eventually become visible. With 12ms delay, jitter would be about 6ns peak to peak and be noticable at a (zoomed) timebase of 100ns/div or faster.

From this point of view, it would be acceptable to limit the delay time to 100000 x timebase, thus making it possible to have 10ms delay at 100ns/div. But then again, in the rare cases where you actually need such an extreme setting, you can always either stop the acquisition or use the zoom mode during run.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on January 27, 2018, 07:47:02 pm
Some tiny simple examples about SDS1000X-E 4channel models BodePlot function what is standard feature - not option.

In Siglent there is selectable three resolution. 21, 101 and 501 points over selected span.

Still I do not know how this resolution is in exdample Keysight InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series Oscilloscopes. In some places can find 10 points/decade (are they serious or is this whole function only for add one more feature to sales AD). In some Good Will model there is also now FRA (Freq Response Analyzing) available and it have around bit over 50 points. But how scaling is done etc, it is very unclear.

Here two examples with Siglent. These examples use quite narrow span and high resolution because this kind of work need narrow span and enough high rersolution. These examples are not at all some kind of maximum limits. Minimum span is 500Hz and max 120MHz.  Here in filter image used 5kHz span and in Xtal resonance curve 10kHz span.

Also it need note that test setups are far away from optimal or good. (filter I/O impedance not matched. Xtal just connected between scope input terminal and other pole to generator output what is also connected to channel 1 as reference using simple T branching connector and also BodePlot settings just for see something, not optimized.

Note that in filter image, level is linear and Xtal image level is Log. (It show nicely what are limits of 8bit ADC)

Also here used only one plot. Siglent can handle somultaneously three inputs (DUT outputs)
Channel 1 is always reference (Sig gen output) and DUT input.  User can select channels 2, 3 and 4 for DUT output. All three works simultaneously and free to select what channel or channels use.


Xtal ~1.1MHz xtal in HC5 case from one Harris military rtx.
Bad filter also from Harris rtx.

Signal generator in this case SDS1032X-h (under scope bodeplot full automatic cotrol)

with BodePlot HighRes sweep and 10kHz span frequency step is 20Hz and and (Span Hz/500)

In these two examples I have used ch3 input. Because now channels 1 and 3 is in use simultaneously scope can use full 1GSa/s (no needed, but just for example)


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=390081;image)
With 8bit ADC full scale natural limit is ~48dB (8*6.02)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=390083;image)

With this image I like also ranting something.
In this case DUT (filter) attenuate pass band lot of. But, I have no option to adjust different level for DUT output. It use automatically same level what it automatically set for reference channel 1 what depends sweep signal level. User can not (or least I have not find how) manually force scope input level settings, BP select it automatically. No, result is better if I can compensate this high atternuation in DUT, so that ADC use its range better so that vertical resolution come better.
But, this is first FW version with BodePlot... there is also some ergonomic - UI things what need finishing and some optimize for better useability. Specially when there is also data table on screen and more other informations like cursors etc. (note that here cursor are "wrong channel" just for get different color and less information. (if use here ch3 cursors it read data from trace).


But BodePlot in Siglent is not made only just  for adding one feature to sales advertisements. I do not know exactly example how Keysight X1000 BP things are but it looks like it have really poor resolution. Nothing like in Siglent.






Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on January 28, 2018, 04:26:58 pm
As previously told Siglent BodePlot have 4 inputs.
1 (Ch1) for reference (pahase and if want, also for amplitude) what is also signal to DUT input.
3 channels for DUT outputs.  Of course this mean that thewre also can be 3 separate DUT (but all with same input)

Here tiny simplified example. Just for show it draw simultaneously 3 traces. I have lot of same type Xtals and I want first do some preselecting for couple of as similar as possible for futher tests and more deep selection process (example if I'm building filter). Generator used here was SDG1032X-h

Here is 3 same type bit over 18MHz Xtal's just picked-up randomly from some lot.

I have turned phase out from image just for visual simplify.

(also as can see Ch4 Xtal is more out from these what are connected to ch2 and 3)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=390407;image)
Also useful for simultaneusly tuning 3 separate filters.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 02, 2018, 04:50:55 pm
Some little update on lundmar's work for a LXI package to use with Linux....

I had to go back and update the benchmark performance numbers for the Siglent SDS1204X-E because it turns out my network routing tables were messed up so all tests were performed over wifi - arrghhhh!  |O

Over cabled network it's not doing ~300 requests/second.... It's doing ~1100 requests/second!!!!

Bam! Thats almost as fast as a Dolorean in overdrive!

With such result there is plenty room to make a poor-mans-datalogger sampling maybe several values at e.g. 100Hz or more.

Oh, and the screenshot live view feature in lxi-gui is now even more smooth hitting about 7 frames/second.
And a realtime vid demonstrating it's speed:
I captured a video instead to capture the time correctly:

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/lxi-tools/misc/master/lxi-gui-benchmark-live-view-sds1204xe.webm

It demonstrates the benchmark and live screenshot feature on the SDS1204X-E. It feels quite responsive.
Download and play it.  ;)  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 05, 2018, 08:13:37 am
What we've been waiting for....

Firmware Version: v7.6.1.12
8 Mb

http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4067&tid=15 (http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4067&tid=15)

Changelog
1.This is the first version.  ::)  :-//


VERY IMPORTANT
Perform Self Cal after updating.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 05, 2018, 09:35:37 am
What we've been waiting for....

Firmware Version: v7.6.1.12
8 Mb

http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4067&tid=15 (http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4067&tid=15)

Changelog
1.This is the first version.  ::)  :-//


VERY IMPORTANT
Perform Self Cal after updating.

I'm bit surprised.
I do not remember if Siglent have done this any time previously - publishing first launch time FW version as update.
Or is this "Happy New year" present for....  due to chinese new year soon.
Perhaps - or is it just only dreaming - there was SDG2042X, SSA3021X, SDG1032X... is this next "wow"...
Least now some peoples have file what can "study"...
 :-/O
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on February 05, 2018, 10:02:48 am
What we've been waiting for....
Firmware Version: v7.6.1.12
8 Mb
Changelog
1.This is the first version.  ::)  :-//

mmm, my unit is already on 7.6.1.12 from the box.... Maybe it will update the FPGA bitstram? Is there any indication of the FPGA version in the update?
Mine FPGA has version is: 2017-11-07
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 05, 2018, 10:07:30 am
What we've been waiting for....
Firmware Version: v7.6.1.12
8 Mb
Changelog
1.This is the first version.  ::)  :-//

mmm, my unit is already on 7.6.1.12 from the box.... Maybe it will update the FPGA bitstram? Is there any indication of the FPGA version in the update?
Mine FPGA has version is: 2017-11-07

It is same. (It can read in filename)
SDS1004X-E_7.6.1.12_FPGA_V20171107.ADS

As told also just previously. This is FIRST version. Normally purchased units out from box have this version.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 05, 2018, 10:14:44 am
What we've been waiting for....

Firmware Version: v7.6.1.12
8 Mb

http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4067&tid=15 (http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4067&tid=15)

Changelog
1.This is the first version.  ::)  :-//


VERY IMPORTANT
Perform Self Cal after updating.

I'm bit surprised.
I do not remember if Siglent have done this any time previously - publishing first launch time FW version as update.
Or is this "Happy New year" present for....  due to chinese new year soon.
Perhaps - or is it just only dreaming - there was SDG2042X, SSA3021X, SDG1032X... is this next "wow"...
Least now some peoples have file what can "study"...
 :-/O
:-[
Yes, it's the same version Siglent sent me pre-release.  :palm:

Not the first time they've put the wrong version online................
We'll find out what's going on tomorrow !
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on February 05, 2018, 10:18:56 am
My SDS1104X-E out of the box (purchased Jan 2018) was:

Software Version: 7.6.1.12R1
FPGA Version: 2017-12-18
Hardware Version: 00-03

Not sure what the R1 signifies?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 05, 2018, 10:26:31 am
What we've been waiting for....

Firmware Version: v7.6.1.12
8 Mb

http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4067&tid=15 (http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4067&tid=15)

Changelog
1.This is the first version.  ::)  :-//


VERY IMPORTANT
Perform Self Cal after updating.

I'm bit surprised.
I do not remember if Siglent have done this any time previously - publishing first launch time FW version as update.
Or is this "Happy New year" present for....  due to chinese new year soon.
Perhaps - or is it just only dreaming - there was SDG2042X, SSA3021X, SDG1032X... is this next "wow"...
Least now some peoples have file what can "study"...
 :-/O
:-[
Yes, it's the same version Siglent sent me pre-release.  :palm:

Not the first time they've put the wrong version online................
We'll find out what's going on tomorrow !

And same what I can see out from box after release. ;)
Lets hope this version have some "hole" to...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 05, 2018, 10:29:07 am
My SDS1104X-E out of the box (purchased Jan 2018) was:

Software Version: 7.6.1.12R1
FPGA Version: 2017-12-18
Hardware Version: 00-03

Not sure what the R1 signifies?

This is good information, tnx. This IS update after this "first version". (also fpga version changed)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 05, 2018, 10:33:30 am
Now we can wait soon this .12R1 update is available. Let's see igf Siglent leave this .12 also available. So we can also downgrade (if need for some reason)

ETA:
12R1 is only tiny intermadiate update. No advantages over version 12. (change only pass/fail output pulse width)
Next update after this is .20 and it have lot of changes. Without further tests I only "feel" that changelog do not list exactly every all improvements what they have done. (example it looks like some functions operate now bit faster but I have not yet compared running simultaneously version 12 and version 20 (using two scopes)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 07, 2018, 09:34:27 am
No false alarm this time.  :)

Version: v7.6.1.20
http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4071&tid=15 (http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4071&tid=15)
6.5 Mb

Changelog
1.Add MSO/Logic functionality
2.Added automatic vertical scale (volts/div) in Bode Plot mode
3.Added USB WiFi support.
4.Optimized the WiFi GUI
5.Automatic Roll mode selection will be disabled if manually disabled once.
6.Renamed Runt-Trigger in German
7.Fixed a bug in the I2C triggering system of 7 bit Address& Data
8.Improved Auto Setup function with 1K compensation output
9.Improved waveform update when using sequence mode on long timebases
10.Optimize self-calibration for Channels
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 08, 2018, 06:05:25 am
No false alarm this time.  :)

Version: v7.6.1.20
http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4071&tid=15 (http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4071&tid=15)
6.5 Mb

Changelog
1.Add MSO/Logic functionality
2.Added automatic vertical scale (volts/div) in Bode Plot mode
3.Added USB WiFi support.
4.Optimized the WiFi GUI
5.Automatic Roll mode selection will be disabled if manually disabled once.
6.Renamed Runt-Trigger in German
7.Fixed a bug in the I2C triggering system of 7 bit Address& Data
8.Improved Auto Setup function with 1K compensation output
9.Improved waveform update when using sequence mode on long timebases
10.Optimize self-calibration for Channels
Perhaps it is also good to add this positive "disclaimer":
11. Possibly more or less improvements and fixes that are not listed.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 08, 2018, 09:59:06 am
Perhaps it is also good to add this positive "disclaimer":
11. Possibly more or less improvements and fixes that are not listed.

Hopefully so. After all I've suggested a whole bunch of improvements and fixes not listed here...

Quote
2.Added automatic vertical scale (volts/div) in Bode Plot mode

I do hope this is what I think, because it has been the main reason why I haven't published a review of the Bode plotter yet.

Quote
9.Improved waveform update when using sequence mode on long timebases

If this means that sequence mode is fully working again and provides improved screen update rate on top of that (I've suspected something like this when looking at the initial firmware already), then I'm really looking forward to finally publish my (then updated) review for this.

Anyway, I'm eager to find out at the next weekend(s).

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: theoldwizard1 on February 13, 2018, 06:13:56 am
I do hope Siglent is listening and they have their engineers working OT fixing these bugs !

Glad to see someone challenging Rigol !
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on February 15, 2018, 08:25:58 pm
Hi,
I've updated my SDS1104X-E with the new firmware but now I notice something strange on channel 4.
I can't see any signal with 50V/div, 5V/div, 1V/div, 200 mv/div (probe set to x10, with x1 the values are 5V, 500mV, 100mV, 20mV). To be more precise I can see the signal only for an instant after changing the V/div scale and then it disappears.
I never noticed this with the previous fimware so I think that is a firmware problem.

can someone check this? or can I try something to figure out what is going on?

Thanks
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on February 15, 2018, 08:31:50 pm
I've had the same problem on channel 1 and 4.

I downgraded the firmware to 7.6.1.12 and problem went away, but returned when I upgraded again. Though a second self calibration after the upgrade made it work correctly. I haven't tried it today to see if the problem has returned.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 15, 2018, 10:56:30 pm
I've had the same problem on channel 1 and 4.
I downgraded the firmware to 7.6.1.12 and problem went away, but returned when I upgraded again. Though a second self calibration after the upgrade made it work correctly. I haven't tried it today to see if the problem has returned.

It looks like there is some problem. They have perhaps changesd something related to calibration data.
I have boted this. (Ch2 in my case) but then I did selfcal after selfcal and so far the problem has not been repeated (at least not yet).

At this time whole Siglent is vacation (Chinese new year aka spring festival) so I need wait before I can contact head office in China.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 16, 2018, 12:08:27 am
I have updated the firmware last weekend and did an extensive regression test for all the issues I had ever reported to Siglent since the first beta release. There were no such issues but I had some initial problems too.

This is an excerpt of what I wrote to Siglent with regard to the new 7.6.1.20 firmware:

Quote
After the new firmware was decompressed and the scope restarted, it took a little while until the familiar user interface appeared and the correct firmware version was displayed on the Utility Status screen. I performed a self-calibration immediately after that, but when it was finished, nothing seemed to work as expected. The SDS1104X-E would not even stably trigger on a plane sine wave. Only after another restart, the scope worked normally again.

From this experience, it appears that the scope needs another restart after the firmware has finally been installed. If so, this should be clearly stated in the update instructions.

So maybe this is the same issue and can be cured either by performing another self-cal or a simple restart. If anyone who has not yet updated reads this and encounters issues like described in the previous postings after the update, I would be grateful if they would try just another restart and report back if that cures the problem.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 16, 2018, 12:49:39 am
I have updated the firmware last weekend and did an extensive regression test for all the issues I had ever reported to Siglent since the first beta release. There were no such issues but I had some initial problems too.

This is an excerpt of what I wrote to Siglent with regard to the new 7.6.1.20 firmware:

Quote
After the new firmware was decompressed and the scope restarted, it took a little while until the familiar user interface appeared and the correct firmware version was displayed on the Utility Status screen. I performed a self-calibration immediately after that, but when it was finished, nothing seemed to work as expected. The SDS1104X-E would not even stably trigger on a plane sine wave. Only after another restart, the scope worked normally again.

From this experience, it appears that the scope needs another restart after the firmware has finally been installed. If so, this should be clearly stated in the update instructions.

So maybe this is the same issue and can be cured either by performing another self-cal or a simple restart. If anyone who has not yet updated reads this and encounters issues like described in the previous postings after the update, I would be grateful if they would try just another restart and report back if that cures the problem.
This I can confirm similar behavior in my early beta unit. I have no other units in stock currently to check and new units due in a week or so are most likely to have the new 7.6.1.20 firmware.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on February 16, 2018, 07:25:02 am
I've done another self cal and all seems to work fine until a reboot. after that i have the same problem on ch.1 and 4.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 16, 2018, 07:31:21 am
I've done another self cal and all seems to work fine until a reboot. after that i have the same problem on ch.1 and 4.
Please perform a Factory Default (NOT user set Default) and report result.
TIA.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on February 16, 2018, 07:56:26 am
how can i do that?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 16, 2018, 08:19:13 am
how can i do that?
Default button, front panel.

This Default button has two possible UI settings; Factory or User defined*.

It returns all DSO settings to the base setting you select, factory or your preferred settings.

I'm only checking that some setting in your DSO is not affecting the problem you see, and best way to do this is reset to Defaults.


* Described earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on February 16, 2018, 10:16:05 am
I did a Factory Default reset the first time I had the issue, and then a self calibration, the problem still existed.

(For me) It seemed the signal disappears when the relays kick-in to change some of the ranges. Going back up, or down one more range, then the signal would return.

Increasing the input signal amplitude would not restore it, neither changing any timebase or trigger settings.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on February 16, 2018, 12:18:14 pm
YES..
same issue after a reset to default.
the problem disappear after a self cal but comes back after reboot.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 16, 2018, 12:41:32 pm
YES..
same issue after a reset to default.
the problem disappear after a self cal but comes back after reboot.
Please one more check.

Reinstall 7.6.1.20 firmware, just straight over itself again.
Follow instruction with care and leave USB stick installed when asked to reboot. Then remove after reboot and do self cal. (after warm ~20 mins total)

If this fails your scope will need to go for a trip back to your supplier.  :(
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on February 16, 2018, 12:56:34 pm
i'll check later... but.. it's not only my issue. i'l check also with the previous firmware
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 16, 2018, 01:00:43 pm
i'l check also with the previous firmware
Why ?
We want to look forward not back. I checked my SDS1104X-E for problems like yours, there are none visible with 7.6.1.20.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on February 16, 2018, 01:08:38 pm
because with the previous firmware this issue was not there.

if the issue disappears with the previous firmware this could confirm that the problem is in the new firmware. Only in this forum page we are in 3 with this issue and it's strange that all 3 are defective units.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 16, 2018, 01:13:46 pm
because with the previous firmware this issue was not there.

if the issue disappears with the previous firmware this could confirm that the problem is in the new firmware. Only in this forum page we are in 3 with this issue and it's strange that all 3 are defective units.
OK, yes.
If I had units in stock I could check but only demo until another week or two.

Shame as the new FW fixes a lot of bugs for me.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 16, 2018, 03:40:23 pm
because with the previous firmware this issue was not there.

if the issue disappears with the previous firmware this could confirm that the problem is in the new firmware. Only in this forum page we are in 3 with this issue and it's strange that all 3 are defective units.

I have seen this 3 times with 7.6.1.20.

First time when I first update previous. Then I did many kind of other things (test images etc) with scope using many functions and suddensly I note that Ch2 disappear when 10mV or 5mV/div. First what I did I reboot. Same. Then I selfcal. Then ok. Later, same again but Ch1 and at this time I can not be sure if scope was booted because it was nearly whole day I did many things  and then just suddenly I see same issue but Ch1 and it disappear after selfcals.
Now I reboot, run selfcal, reboot, run selfcal and after then, no issue what ever I do and including many boot ups..

Until I think I do really all kind of mad things like "what ever to get it visible". Reboot with flashing buttons, encoders etc... many ways... no issue. Until then I roll back to FW .12  (and heavy try for get this issue visible with this .12 version but I can not see it) and after this then upgrade again to .20

After then with many "random play and boot etc" trying I finally get this issue again with Ch1. And I do not know what exatly tricks issue on. (only I want proof it can exists and take images)

Attached image where can see  Ch1 signal is <-50mV. Also with vert pos adj it can not move at all.
There is nothing connected inputs.

After then I did not try so much many things (it IS time consuming...  my boot counter show now over 500!)
Without knowing if this is nessessary or not, I run selfcal, boot, selfcal, boot and after then I have not any luck to pop up this issue. Not even with boot time rapid fire Math and not with many kind of use. Just working normally. But, it is proofed it is there in some situation after FW from .12 to .20 so I hope Siglent find what it is and fix it

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on February 16, 2018, 06:15:38 pm
report:

reinstalled the .20 firmware and self cal, same problem but with different V/div settings. Downgraded to  .12, self cal and all works fine even after reboot
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on February 17, 2018, 09:03:37 pm
Just found the problem has returned (on .20 firmware), though at lower V/Div settings than before.

Signal is fine at 200mV, then disappears at 100mV and 50mV, but with fine tuning set, it will re-appear at 102mV and 99mV. The same can be reproduced around the 50mV setting.

EDIT: Problem has gone after a self calibration.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 19, 2018, 06:18:00 am
Hi,
Somehow I thought that 1204X-E has 2 totally independent ADCs. But if one uses 3 channels (1,2,3)  then  the channel 3 will also use 500 GSa/s and 7 Mpts max although only one channel is used.

SPI decoding works in  the latest firmware (.20) fine. It was a nice surprise that it is possible to use zoom for quick data examination of the decoded signal.

The source:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396423;image)
The decoded result:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396425;image)

Triggering on the byte 0x81:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396427;image)

Triggering on the byte 0x1:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396429;image)
 
UART decoding works as well. Max speed that I had tested was  921600 bauds.
The source:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396433;image)

The result:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396431;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: JPortici on February 19, 2018, 06:38:29 am
Somehow I thought that 1204X-E has 2 totally independent ADCs. But if one uses 3 channels (1,2,3)  then  the channel 3 will also use 500 GSa/s and 7 Mpts max although only one channel is used.

it probably depends on how the ADC sampling clock is generated, maybe there is only one path?

Quote
It was a nice surprise that it is possible to use zoom for quick data examination of the decoded signal.
a decoder that don't allow it is a shitty decoder.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 19, 2018, 07:21:38 am
Hello,

Does anybody know what "Power On Line" option means? It is located on the page 4 in the menu "Utility". Documentation says nothing about it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kvd on February 19, 2018, 07:25:23 am
Hello,

Does anybody know what "Power On Line" option means? It is located on the page 4 in the menu "Utility". Documentation says nothing about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJg__cRjSx0&feature=push-fr&attr_tag=OCliiGUnccxBmRly-6 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJg__cRjSx0&feature=push-fr&attr_tag=OCliiGUnccxBmRly-6)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 19, 2018, 07:48:04 am
Hi,
Somehow I thought that 1204X-E has 2 totally independent ADCs.
Oh but it does !
See #1 post in this thread.

Quote
But if one uses 3 channels (1,2,3)  then  the channel 3 will also use 500 GSa/s and 7 Mpts max although only one channel is used.
Yes, this is normal behavior in a DSO with 2 ADC's.
Only using 1+3 or 2+4 gives max sample rates. (or any one channel combination from each ADC)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 19, 2018, 07:54:03 am
SPI decoding works in  the latest firmware (.20) fine. It was a nice surprise that it is possible to use zoom for quick data examination of the decoded signal..............
Increasing the Transparency setting in the Display sub menu will result in not hiding traces under the Decode list.  ;) 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 19, 2018, 08:00:18 am
Hi,
Somehow I thought that 1204X-E has 2 totally independent ADCs. But if one uses 3 channels (1,2,3)  then  the channel 3 will also use 500 GSa/s and 7 Mpts max although only one channel is used.

My guess would be there will be not many DSOs that use different sample rates and memory depths across their analog channels. So the Siglent scopes are in no way special in this regard.

While technically possible, mixed sample rates / record lengths would increase the already very high complexity of the firmware while providing no true benefit in practical use. We need not even look under the hood, as it starts at the UI level already. Have you noticed the information at the upper right corner of the screen?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396443)
SDS1104X-E_Screen_Sa-Rate

The current record length and sample rate is displayed there. If this would not be the same for all channels, we’d need this bit of information to be individual for each channel, which would be both space consuming and probably confusing as well. And all that for one single (rare) use case, because:

With just one channel, we can only have one record length and sample rate.
With any two channels, we’ll always have the same sample rate and record length for both, no matter whether they are within the same channel group or not.
With four channels, we’ll always get half the sample rate / record length of a single channel.

So it is really only the 3-channel scenario that would allow a mix of individual/interleaved ADC configuration.

Just look at it as a scope that only allows 1, 2 or 4 channels and gives you the option to hide one of the 4 channels when it is not needed ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: borjam on February 19, 2018, 09:04:53 am
Hi,
Somehow I thought that 1204X-E has 2 totally independent ADCs.
Oh but it does !
See #1 post in this thread.
I think it would be rather confusing to have two different sampling rates on screen at the same time. After all you have a single time base for the four channels. So, no matter how much work the second converter is actually doing, it makes sense to use the same sample rate for all the signals on screen.

In this case they have done The Right Thing with the POLA™ approach (Principle of Least Surprise).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 19, 2018, 10:36:55 am
Also we need remember always bacround working waveform history buffer.
Also we need remember fast sequence mode.
These can be big hassle if diffferent channel have different amount of memory (and different max count of segments or wfms in normal mode history buffer.

Only acceptable solution is same amount of sample data length with all captured channels. Other way we may get lot of confusion and ranting how this work.
So, with 2 ADC it is 1 or 2 channel in use max 1GSa/s max 14M/channel and over 2 channel in use max 500MSa/s and max 7M/channel.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on February 19, 2018, 08:25:20 pm
Now the signal is dropping out at 1V and 100mV settings on .20 firmware, so permanently downgrading to .12 to see how stable it is.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 19, 2018, 10:54:56 pm
Now the signal is dropping out at 1V and 100mV settings on .20 firmware, so permanently downgrading to .12 to see how stable it is.

I connected all 4 inputs to the signal generator and went through the range 5mV - 50V for each channel - the signals did not drop.

Firmware 7.6.1.20
Hardware 00-03
FPGA version: 2018-01-20
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 20, 2018, 07:45:07 am
It is certain without any doubt that FW7.6.1.20 have error. With some settings and use some channel trace may disappear depending V/div setting including also that it may occur some times only with some fine steps. I have not found systematic way to get this error visible but still frequently I can get this error. (If trace is visible and do not any changes it stay visible and do not disappear randomly itself so it is not this kind of random.) It is not at all depending signal. Mostly it exist after turning V/div but what is other things combination and previously changed settings - I have not foud perfect repeatable logic.

I have not seen this error any time in perevious public shared FW what was 7.6.1.12.

Siglent vacation time is 13.-22-Feb. So there is not ony reaction from Siglent about this error. But there is waiting notifications about this when they arrive to work after "New Year" holiday.

If you have any problem with this issue (is it even possible that this error do not exist in all product lots), please downgrade back to previous FW and use it until this problem is solved. Allways upraded or downgraded FW, do least one selfcal after it is enough thermal equilibrium,  after >30 minutes continuously on.

Note:
after on, cold or warm, it do frequently some internal  self adjustment procedures until it have been on enough time on  for approximately thermal equilibrium (you can see this "hick-up" on the screen trace updating very short breaks if look carefully after start) . During this period do not selfcal, it is perhaps not useful. So, take seriously this: Do selfcal after least 30minute continuously without any breakon and nothing connected to input BNC's.

(pity, there is so many nice things in new FW and it have this kind of error)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 21, 2018, 01:07:55 am
I wonder what criteria was used to to choose deskew time limit for 1204X-E. Right now it is +/- 100ns which seems to be quite small. 

I was playing with a modified UNI-T 210E (added an oscilloscope output, the mod that has been done by many who do not have access to expensive current probes, i know that  UNI-T 210E has very limited bandwidth (around 3 kHz)  but for my current applications/experiments  that's ok) and noticed that even if I set one channel deskew to -100ns and another channel deskew to +100ns I still could not get two signals (voltage/current) match. It would probably have worked if the deskew range had been be bigger and then I could use the math  function for  power measurements.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 21, 2018, 08:56:30 am
I cannot believe that the included probes PP215 200MHz are what the label says due to their poor performance. I have a very old probe (around 27 years old, all labels are long gone due to extensive usage,  I used it when I was an E.E.),   I  also have a couple of P6100  100MHz probes I bought at AliExpress for a different oscope. Today I was probing some signals on 8 bit MCU using the standard probes and did not like the signal shape. So, I decided to compare all those probes and that is what I got (I was mostly paying attention to the rise/fall times)

All probes have been properly calibrated and used in 1:1 mode.

a) 27 year old probe - 20 ns  - yellow trace;
b) P6100  100MHz Chinese probe - 26 ns - blue trace;
c) P215 200Mhz - 33 ns - green trace;

The result speaks for itself.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396947;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396949;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396951;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396953;image)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 21, 2018, 10:01:23 am
The result speaks for itself.
They do.

Inexperience !
1x probe usage on a circuit sensitive to capacitive loading when 10x setting need be used.

Get the pamphlet/datasheet for each probe and examine input capacitance spec for 1x and 10x....then result will speak for itself.

Little traps like this await the unwary.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 21, 2018, 10:38:02 am
I cannot believe that the included probes PP215 200MHz are what the label says due to their poor performance. I have a very old probe (around 27 years old, all labels are long gone due to extensive usage,  I used it when I was an E.E.),   I  also have a couple of P6100  100MHz probes I bought at AliExpress for a different oscope. Today I was probing some signals on 8 bit MCU using the standard probes and did not like the signal shape. So, I decided to compare all those probes and that is what I got (I was mostly paying attention to the rise/fall times)

All probes have been properly calibrated and used in 1:1 mode.

Sorry to hear you’re unhappy with the PP215, because they are more than adequate in my book.

Probes performance is specified for x10 mode and this is what manufacturers focus on. Higher end scopes usually come with x10 probes exclusively, this even applies to the SDS2kX already.

Probe x1 mode generally is an emergency solution for tasks, where we want highest possible sensitivity whereas bandwidth and capacitive load are irrelevant. So this mostly comes down to probing power supply rails for ripple and noise. It is absolutely not recommended to probe digital buses in x1 mode, because the high capacitive load will affect rise time and propagation delay of the signals there as well. In analog circuits, carefree use of x1 probes can severely affect circuit performance and even lead to unwanted oscillations.

The data sheet for PP215 clearly states 6MHz bandwidth and up to 120pF input capacitance in x1 mode.
The actual bandwidth is much better than that, >9MHz (measured), which results in a rise time of <38ns (calculated). Yes, especially older probes tend to have more bandwidth up to 16MHz in x1 mode and there were (and still are) spezialized x1 probes that can go up to some 30MHz, but that does not change the fundamental problems of x1 probing as mentioned in the previous paragraph.

Here’s the frequency response graph for the PP510, which has identical specs to the PP215 in x1 mode.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396996)
SDS1104X-E_Probe_x1_BW

With the high input sensitivity of 500µV/div for the SDS1000X-E it should almost never be necessary to use x1 probes anyway.

Btw, Here are the specifications for the Keysight N2889A 350MHz Probe (much more expensive, you bet!):

•  Bandwidth: DC to 350MHz (@10:1), DC to 10MHz (@1:1)
•  Risetime: 1 nsec (@10:1), 35 nsec (@1:1) (10%-90%)
•  Attenuation ratio: 10:1/1:1
•  Input resistance: 10 M? (@10:1), 1 M? (@1:1 when terminated to 1M?)
•  Input capacitance: 11 pF(@10:1), 60 pF (@1:1)
•  Maximum input: 300 VRMS (or >400Vpk) CAT I/II (@10:1), 150 V RMS CAT I/II (@1:1)
•  Cable length: 1.3 m


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on February 21, 2018, 02:03:01 pm
It clearly is a loading problem.  In the 4th image where you have all 3 probes connected at the same time, all 3 traces look very similar to me.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 22, 2018, 06:14:22 am
TK, tautech & Performa01 in particular (I really appreciate your detailed explanation but I do hope you copied/pasted the part of/all the text instead of typing it)  thanks for answering. But I am still believe that enclosed probes (PP215) are poor performers comparing to my other probes (even one having lower bandwidth) in this test. I repeated it again this time using all (properly calibrated) probes in 1:10 mode.

The previous result (1:1):

a) 27 year old probe - 20 ns  - yellow trace;
b) PP6100  100MHz Chinese probe - 26 ns - blue trace;
c) PP215 200Mhz - 33 ns - green trace;

The second test (1:10):

a) 27 year old probe - 10 ns;
b) PP6100  100MHz Chinese probe - 10 ns;
c) PP215 200Mhz - 22 ns;

The result still speaks for itself and  PP215  will be the last probe I choose from those 3 probes. And no, I did not say that PP215  unusable, but I am saying that in this particular test PP6100 100MHz  probe outperformed it.


 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 22, 2018, 06:56:59 am
TK, tautech & Performa01 in particular (I really appreciate your detailed explanation but I do hope you copied/pasted the part of/all the text instead of typing it)  thanks for answering. But I am still believe that enclosed probes (PP215) are poor performers comparing to my other probes (even one having lower bandwidth) in this test. I repeated it again this time using all (properly calibrated) probes in 1:10 mode.

The previous result (1:1):

a) 27 year old probe - 20 ns  - yellow trace;
b) PP6100  100MHz Chinese probe - 26 ns - blue trace;
c) PP215 200Mhz - 33 ns - green trace;

The second test (1:10):

a) 27 year old probe - 10 ns;
b) PP6100  100MHz Chinese probe - 10 ns;
c) PP215 200Mhz - 22 ns;

The result still speaks for itself and  PP215  will be the last probe I choose from those 3 probes. And no, I did not say that PP215  unusable, but I am saying that in this particular test PP6100 100MHz  probe outperformed it.

Quote
c) PP215 200Mhz - 22 ns;

This result is really strange! Something is now wrong. Probe or use of probe.
Also PP6100 100M what I found is around same ballpark if look 10:1 input capacitance. So these load your signal around same.
It feels very strange if you really measure normal digital bus what are still quite low impedance typically or your probe is broken. Difference between PP6100 can not be so high, when look rise time from what ever source if all is ok when we talk this kind of very slow risetimes.

Typically probe test (characterizing probe)  need do using 50ohm output impedance terminated with 50ohm feed thru and probe tip connected to this feed thru termination using probe tip adapter for avoid GND inductance.

Can you show exactly your test setup (enough good picture) and with exatly with this setup, and then also exatly with this setup image from scope screen and explained all settings.

Do you have any reliable signal source what have known pulse rise time and this source impedance, example some known function generator)


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 22, 2018, 07:30:42 am
Just wanted to add a couple of things to Performa01's review of web server, the page 156, SDS1104X-E Review 07.pdf
This is very basic piece of software, indeed. Something is definitely wrong when it comes to using 1:10 probes.
For example:
From your browser connect to the oscope, press "Refresh" button to read the latest data from the device. In my case this is:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=397325;image)

Don't change anything either on the oscope or in the web interface, instead  just press  "Apply" and look at the scope / the screen - V-Scale has changed from 2V to 20V for all channels, i.e. was multiplied by 10

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=397327;image)

Another annoyance is that after you press "Apply" the channel adjustment type automatically changes from coarse to fine. So in order to quickly change vertical scale of all channels back  (on the oscope) you would have to set the adjustment type to coarse and after that  use the vertical scale knob.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 22, 2018, 11:05:48 am
The second test (1:10):

a) 27 year old probe - 10 ns;
b) PP6100  100MHz Chinese probe - 10 ns;
c) PP215 200Mhz - 22 ns;

The result still speaks for itself and  PP215  will be the last probe I choose from those 3 probes. And no, I did not say that PP215  unusable, but I am saying that in this particular test PP6100 100MHz  probe outperformed it.

You are right that the PP215 are certainly not the best probes money can buy; just look at the input capacitance, which is specified 16–20pF. Compare that to the Keysight N2889A specifications, where it is just 11pF – at 5 times the price, that is. If Siglent is going to ship the DSO with probes of that quality level and the price of the 4-channel model increases by $400,- because of that, most folks will be very unhappy and in fact, essentially no one would really appreciate that. The bells and whistles is what sells, not inconspicuous quality probes. The original probes are cheap and will serve most folks well and the ones who really need or want something better can always invest some serious money to buy whatever they want whenever they want.

It’s not that easy though and price is not the ultimate performance indicator, as the probe should be a good match for the rather complex input impedance of the scope. For instance, I have tested a bunch of probes on the Siglent SDS2304X, including a Keysight N2843A 500MHz probe, which happened to perform very similar to the old bulky (nameless!) 300MHz probes that shipped with the SDS2000 (without X), whereas I clearly prefer the characteristics of the Siglent SP2030A (shipped with the SDS2304X) over the Keysight – for that particular scope, that is. After all, the SP2030A extends the scope ±3dB bandwidth up to 450MHz! So one should be careful and keep in mind that higher price and/or more specified bandwidth does not automatically mean better performance … but more prestige at the most ;)

Back on topic - PP215. The 200MHz Siglent scopes have a specified (calculated!) rise time of 1.8ns and since the actual bandwidth is more like 240MHz, the real rise time is 1.4~1.5ns (measured!) accordingly. The rise time of the probes has to be added, but is not specified for the PP215. Since these are only 200MHz rated, we have to assume their rise time to be also some 1.8ns, which already means a total of about 2.4ns rise time. Then the signal source sure has some rise time too, which needs to be added as well (of course this is always the same so it could be ignored when just comparing probes).

What’s more important is probe input capacitance and source impedance. There we could get some unlucky combination that makes the probe look worse than it normally is – but by no means in the realm of double-digit nanoseconds when probing low impedance circuit nodes!

From previous tests I know that the PP215 does not limit the frequency response of a 200MHz frontend as in the SDS1202X-E. It performs pretty much the same as a direct coax connection and we get >240MHz bandwidth. From that measurement, its rise time has to be better than 1.5ns.

Just to be sure, I did a quick test right now to verify the performance of the PP215. Signal source for all following tests is a pulse generator with precisely 1ns rise time, repetition rate 1kHz, pulse width 50ns, amplitude 600mVpp, with a 50ohm through termination directly fitted to its output. Probe is connected via its BNC adapter accessory, ground lead is disconnected of course.

First the PP215 on the SDS1202X-E it was shipped with:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=397353;image)
PP215_x10_SDS1202X-E_1ns_Risetime_T

We get 2ns rise time and doing the math, knowing the signal source rise time to be 1ns and assuming the SDS1202X-E has 1.4ns, then there is just 1ns left for the PP215. Not bad at all…

Now let’s verify this on a faster scope, the SDS2304X, same test setup otherwise:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=397355;image)
PP215_x10_SDS2304X_1ns_Risetime_T

Doing the math again. We measured 1.75ns total rise time (toggling between 1.7 and 1.8 ), scope and signal source both have 1ns and there’s once again just a round single nanosecond left for the PP215.

Finally I wanted to know what does it look like with the (rather nice) 300MHz SP2030A probe, shipping with the SDS2304X?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=397357;image)
SP2030A_x10_SDS2304X_1ns_Risetime_T

It looks definitely different with less bad ringing. Now we get 1.6ns total rise time, minus 1ns for scope and signal source each, there is only 750ps left for the SP2030A. Not a significant difference on paper, but in practice, as the screenshots are illustrating.

In general, dealing with transition times close to 1ns, matters start getting a little tricky ;)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 22, 2018, 11:08:39 am
Just wanted to add a couple of things to Performa01's review of web server, the page 156, SDS1104X-E Review 07.pdf
This is very basic piece of software, indeed. Something is definitely wrong when it comes to using 1:10 probes.

Well, I only had a brief look at the web server as you can tell from my review. I use it regularly for pulling screenshots from the scope, but nothing else. So I’m not at all surprised that it still has some issues.

Quite frankly, I cannot be motivated to put a lot of effort in testing things I have no use for. I’ll point Siglent to your posting though.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 23, 2018, 02:46:57 am
Can you show exactly your test setup (enough good picture) and with exatly with this setup, and then also exatly with this setup image from scope screen and explained all settings.
Do you have any reliable signal source what have known pulse rise time and this source impedance, example some known function generator)

rf-loop thanks for your willingness to help but before you start spending your time let me repeat the test with other PP215 probes that came with my oscope (at the moment I have only one).
I don't have a calibrated signal generator with knows rise/fall time, I just used a 16 MHz MCU, the output pin has a  1k  pull-up resistor.

Just to be sure, I did a quick test right now to verify the performance of the PP215. Signal source for all following tests is a pulse generator with precisely 1ns rise time, repetition rate 1kHz, pulse width 50ns, amplitude 600mVpp, with a 50ohm through termination directly fitted to its output. Probe is connected via its BNC adapter accessory, ground lead is disconnected of course.
Performa01  thanks for the very extensive and detailed test, I think it's much more trustworthy than mine.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: josip on February 23, 2018, 09:58:00 am
Performa01, thank you for details with pictures, but one is missing SP2030A_x10_SDS1202X-E_1ns_Risetime_T.png  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rigol52 on February 23, 2018, 10:50:00 am
Performa01, thank you for details with pictures, but one is missing SP2030A_x10_SDS1202X-E_1ns_Risetime_T.png  :popcorn:

Probably you need to click on it again - it open without problem with me here.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 23, 2018, 12:06:52 pm
Performa01, thank you for details with pictures, but one is missing SP2030A_x10_SDS1202X-E_1ns_Risetime_T.png  :popcorn:

Excellent request!

It turned out that this is a perfect example to back my warnings about using random probes with your instrument, just because they have a higher bandwidth rating and/or are coming from a higher prestigious brand.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=397788;image)
SP2030A_x10_SDS1202X-E_1ns_Risetime_T

The SP2030A is a 300MHz probe that clearly performs better than the PP215 when tested on the scope it belongs to – the SDS2304X. But on the SDS1202X, rise time gets even worse: 2.3ns vs. 2.0ns! (The transition time measurements are flickering between 2.2 and 2.4ns)

How can that be?

The most important (and expensive) part of any scope probe is the cable, that should be low capacitance and needs to have some well defined resistance for the inner conductor (around 200 ohms) in order to damp the resonance effects from the ill-terminated characteristic cable impedance. The optimum cable resistance depends on the circuit details of the scope input and on the SP2030A it quite obviously is just right for the SDS2304X, but a tad too high for the SDS1202X-E.

Some people like to replace their multimeter probes immediately after purchase with “sexier” ones and that is perfectly fine (except that I never did it because I have no use for these impractical probes at all in a lab, be they sexy or not). But for a scope, you should not replace the original probes with random ones without a second thought, just because they look sexier or have a higher bandwidth rating – only inexperienced folks do that. You might end up with an unpleasant surprise if you take the time to actually measure the performance of the probe/scope combination. Of course there’s always a chance that it actually fits well, but you should be able to verify that beforehand.

As a verdict, even though the SP2030A is a much nicer and higher quality probe (x10 only!) with index pin and 300MHz bandwidth rating, even though it performs beautifully on a SDS2304X, cannot be recommended as a performance upgrade over the PP215, at least not for the 200MHz versions of the SDS1000X-E series scopes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 23, 2018, 12:54:56 pm
I don't have a calibrated signal generator with knows rise/fall time, I just used a 16 MHz MCU, the output pin has a  1k  pull-up resistor.

You write you use a MCU output pin with 1k pull-up resistor in your circuit. I do hope that output is not configured as a single ended open drain driver and the pull-up is just there to ensure a logic high level when that MCU GPIO pin is configured as input.

Because otherwise we have 1k source resistance for the rising edge. You could easily prove that by looking at the falling edge – if this is much faster, than it is actually an open drain output.

1k ohm is already a very high impedance when it comes to high frequencies (or short rise times for that matter).

Just for fun, I turned into a scope probe designer for a little while and designed a x10 probe for the SDS1202X-E, with 1.2 meters cable length and about 15pF input capacitance. Here is the circuit:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=397797;image)
Probe x10_50_25 CD

The most important part is the lossy cable, here is the data:

Resistance = 186 ohms
Inductance = 300 nH
Capacitance = 120 pF

As can be seen, the circuit already contains the standard test setup: Signal generator with 50 ohms source impedance and 50 ohms through termination directly on its output, resulting in a total source impedance of 25 ohms, as seen by the probe.

Of course we could use this same probe and connect it to a circuit node that represents an unterminated 1k ohm source impedance. It would look like this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=397799;image)
Probe x10_50_1k CD

Now let’s compare the frequency response of these two scenarios:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=397801;image)
Probe x10_50 FR

What a difference. My probe design performs well up to almost 300MHz within +/- 1dB when probing a 25 ohm source impedance node. The -3dB bandwidth is more than 400MHz, equivalent to <1ns rise time. For 1k ohm, we barely get 10MHz -3dB bandwidth, which means some 35ns rise time.

The question remains, why do the other probes perform more than twice as good?

They could have a lower input capacitance, but this could not explain the huge difference. Even the Keysight probe with only 11pF input capacitance and assuming the PP215 actually had 20pF (which I really doubt, 16pF is much more likely) could not turn 22ns into 10ns.

The actual difference in capacitive loading has to be lower anyway, as there is some capacity in the circuit already – The GPIO port pin of a typical MCU alone can have up to 10pF. Then add the board traces and everything that is connected to them. With just 10pF circuit capacitance, the difference in capacitive loading would be 30pF/21pF worst case and the Keysight probe would measure at least 15ns when the PP215 measures 22ns.

So there must be something else going on…
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 23, 2018, 01:40:42 pm
Sidenote:
Many good and more expensive probes are really different animals than some Rigol-Siglent-Gratlent-Whatlent scopes standard accessory ones.

They have also more adjustments than just this usual "LF" compensation what everyone turn as needed.

Attached example about quite simple and not so bad class HP probe. (part of instructions)

More deep adjustments can do also in many probes. But these adjustments must not do without needed equipments.
Some different passive probes have enen more adjustments for compromise highest, middle and low freq and very fast edge response and then also adjustment for DC level error. Some probes are quuite tricy to adjust for perfect response with just one individual scope and just individual channel because in final game all are bit different, not only installed compoonents inside scope but also bit different paarasitics in scope, cable and probe tip and adjustment box.

And we do not forget Tektronix special probe cables what of course have some "impedance" but also inner wire have designed resistance what is also part of damping ringing.
Then expensive probes are also mechanically very different. Example some older Tek and HP passive probes are made for repair. All spare parts was available... tips, cables etc--- all replaceable.

--------------

About this previous @17_29bis test.

OpenCollector type output with 1k pullup. This explain more than enough this result with P215.
1kOhm  and if think roughly around 100pF 1:1 probe setting. It acts like single RC LP filter.  LP cut-off freq is 1.6MHz without parasitics etc calculation because they are unknown and just only for imagine what is going on. But they do here things only even more bad.
Also pulse response to up direction is slower than down due to fact that C charge/discharce is not symmetrical (To up this passive 1kOhm and in this case this active down component in your MCU what may have quite low impedance but sure faster than up with 1kOhm pull up resistor. )

---------------
Nice probe work @Performa01


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 23, 2018, 07:04:04 pm
They could have a lower input capacitance, but this could not explain the huge difference. Even the Keysight probe with only 11pF input capacitance and assuming the PP215 actually had 20pF (which I really doubt, 16pF is much more likely) could not turn 22ns into 10ns.
Little side note:
PP215 10:1 input capacitance is listed on the probe brochure and in Siglent websites as 13 or 14 pF......not 16pF

OpenCollector type output with 1k pullup. This explain more than enough this result with P215.
1kOhm  and if think roughly around 100pF 1:1 probe setting. It acts like single RC LP filter.
Exactly  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 23, 2018, 07:31:48 pm
They could have a lower input capacitance, but this could not explain the huge difference. Even the Keysight probe with only 11pF input capacitance and assuming the PP215 actually had 20pF (which I really doubt, 16pF is much more likely) could not turn 22ns into 10ns.
Little side note:
PP215 10:1 input capacitance is listed on the probe brochure and in Siglent websites as 13 or 14 pF......not 16pF

Well, then that's Siglent's fault.  :-DD

I've got my data from there "SIGLENT_Probe_Datasheet V1.5" which I've downloaded just a week ago (see attachment).

But you are right: The little card that comes in the probe bag lists the input capacitance as 14pF  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 23, 2018, 07:56:19 pm
Anyone interested in a more detailed probe comparison, I've just published one in my SDS1004X-E review thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 23, 2018, 07:56:54 pm
They could have a lower input capacitance, but this could not explain the huge difference. Even the Keysight probe with only 11pF input capacitance and assuming the PP215 actually had 20pF (which I really doubt, 16pF is much more likely) could not turn 22ns into 10ns.
Little side note:
PP215 10:1 input capacitance is listed on the probe brochure and in Siglent websites as 13 or 14 pF......not 16pF

Well, then that's Siglent's fault.  :-DD
It is !

We need remember these probes are supplied by a third party and Siglent staff have made error when copying specs onto their webpage. The card in the probe pouch should always be the final and absolute reference in all cases as it comes from the probe manufacturer. I highly value the card and have them for any and all new probes I have ever bought !

Quote
But you are right: The little card that comes in the probe bag lists the input capacitance as 14pF
I've got some for PP215 that list it as 13 pF, who to believe ?  ::)


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TheSteve on February 23, 2018, 08:14:26 pm
Believe the LCR meter used to measure what the probes actually are.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 23, 2018, 08:15:30 pm
Believe the LCR meter used to measure what the probes actually are.
At what frequency ?  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 23, 2018, 08:20:18 pm
We need remember these probes are supplied by a third party and Siglent staff have made error when copying specs onto their webpage. The card in the probe pouch should always be the final and absolute reference in all cases as it comes from the probe manufacturer. I highly value the card and have them for any and all new probes I have ever bought !

Well, there are obviously not so many probe manufacturers and except for Tektronix, even the big brands use third party - at least sometimes. But the probe manufacturers can make mistakes too - I don't think Siglent have reserved all possible errors in this world exclusively for themselves  :-DD


Quote
But you are right: The little card that comes in the probe bag lists the input capacitance as 14pF
I've got some for PP215 that list it as 13 pF, who to believe ?  ::)

See? That would NOT be Siglent's fault for a change ;)

On a more serious note, I've got one of the very first SDS1202X-E and the probe manufacturer might just have updated their specs at some point. And then, 13 or 14 pF, not a huge difference anymore, really. Up to 20 on the other hand ... would have been a bit alarming.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TheSteve on February 23, 2018, 08:35:58 pm
Believe the LCR meter used to measure what the probes actually are.
At what frequency ?  ;)

I found my Tek and Agilent probes to measure the same up to 100 kHz(max of my LCR meter). I've measured all of my probes including active ones.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: chipss on February 23, 2018, 09:12:39 pm
Pp215 probe card received today?
Input capacitance 1x85pf-120pf / 10x 18.5pf-22.5 ?
It’s what my card tells me?  ???
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 23, 2018, 09:19:26 pm
Pp215 probe card received today?
Input capacitance 1x85pf-120pf / 10x 18.5pf-22.5 ?
It’s what my card tells me?  ???

That would be the specification for PP510 - according to the Probe Datasheet V1.5, which in turn doesn't always comply with the probe cards.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: chipss on February 23, 2018, 10:02:04 pm
The card is for a pp215, and came with the sds1202x-e , today, that is what’s printed on the card for my pp215?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 23, 2018, 10:06:37 pm
Pp215 probe card received today?
Input capacitance 1x85pf-120pf / 10x 18.5pf-22.5 ?
It’s what my card tells me?  ???

That would be the specification for PP510 - according to the Probe Datasheet V1.5, which in turn doesn't always comply with the probe cards.  :-//

Performa01 & tautech I don't know what kind of PP215 you have/use but this is what comes with 1204X-E:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=398045;image)

This is comparison (PP6100). Am I the only one who sees that the declared/stated capacitance of PP6100 is even lower than PP215? 

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=398047;image)

I don't have a calibrated signal generator with knows rise/fall time, I just used a 16 MHz MCU, the output pin has a  1k  pull-up resistor.



Because otherwise we have 1k source resistance for the rising edge. You could easily prove that by looking at the falling edge – if this is much faster, than it is actually an open drain output.


Interesting assumption but the screenshots I attached for every probe clearly show that rise and fall times are the same.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 23, 2018, 10:07:04 pm
Okay, guys, enough guessing!

I've now measured both the PP510 and PP215 and they are pretty much identical.

Probe tip capacitance is 14.9pF for the probe alone and 15.3pF when plugged into the scope.

Of course, the probe tip capacitance depends on the compensation, as the compensation trimmer is the main capacitive coupling path to the cable (and scope input) capacitance. This is also why usually a span is specified. Consequently I've measured both probes when properly compensated for their respective scope, i.e. the PP215 on SDS1202X-E and PP510 on SDS1104X-E, as this is the only relevant use case.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 23, 2018, 10:13:56 pm
The card is for a pp215, and came with the sds1202x-e , today, that is what’s printed on the card for my pp215?
Very interesting, thanks for your reply.

I have bought probe quality concerns to Siglent's attention before and I will again for your PP215 !
The SDS1004X-E product manager informed me that he would keep an eye on their suppliers product.

Email sent.

Performa01 & tautech I don't know what kind of PP215 you have/use but this is what comes with 1204X-E:
PP215 is also supplied as the standard probe for 200 MHz SDS1202X-E.

If there are discrepancies with this product they must be addressed. Maybe it is only the documentation ?  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 24, 2018, 12:35:35 am
Performa01 & tautech I don't know what kind of PP215 you have/use but this is what comes with 1204X-E:

Well, of course I can only speak for what I have. The PP215 is about a year old and the PP510 about 6 months and both perform very similar and have the exact same probe tip capacitance.

See attachments for the PP215 (sorry for the poor image quality).


Interesting assumption but the screenshots I attached for every probe clearly show that rise and fall times are the same.

Sorry, I just forgot that – I’m doing so many things in parallel. Somehow I thought I had seen a screenshot zoomed on the rising edge and didn’t look back in the thread.

Anyway, we don’t seem to get any plausible answer to the question why your PP215 performance appears to be so poor. I’m rather confident the PP215 that I have would not go under so badly in a comparison against the other probes you’ve used. But obviously something is different at your side.

I guess we can only wait and see what tautech finds out. Maybe Siglent could test a sample of their currently shipped PP215 probes and verify their performance.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 24, 2018, 12:40:57 am
See attachments for the PP215 (sorry for the poor image quality).

I have already seen it and even compared with PP610, see my post above with 2 attached screenshots.
EDIT: and what is really funny is that your and my scans don't match.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: chipss on February 24, 2018, 02:07:52 am
My probe and card is a exact match to 17-29,bis same probe yet different specs? confusing. My cap tester is not all that great. But I may take a look at it anyway.
 I must say for an economy class scope , what would this have costed 20 years ago!

 :-DD it shall work fine for my needs, plus a few options That are overkill, mainly setting bias in mics, and mic pre amps, compressors, and eq’s.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 24, 2018, 04:30:09 am
I guess we can only wait and see what tautech finds out. Maybe Siglent could test a sample of their currently shipped PP215 probes and verify their performance.
Yes, maybe this what they'll do.

Initial reply from the product manager is they will look into this and update documentation if required.
He offers thanks for bringing this to their attention.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 24, 2018, 07:24:10 am
I found a bug related to displaying long IC2 decoded packets, I am running the latest X.20 firmware.
Look at the first column in the table, we cannot see the row 9:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=398208;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=398210;image)

But if I change the number of lines in the table then we see the row 9 just fine:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=398206;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=398212;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on February 24, 2018, 02:25:28 pm
Is it missing row 11 as well on picture #2?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 25, 2018, 03:26:42 am
Is it missing row 11 as well on picture #2?

This is not a missing row, this is just data corruption shown in the table.

I would like to report on the recently found problems/bugs:

1) Table corruption. This is how that can be reproduced (X.20 lastest firmware, I2C 7 bit address is used) :

a) program the i2C master to send 54 byte long payload - check the result (everything is fine):


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=398545;image)



b) program the i2C master to send 55 byte long payload - check the result (the record index has been replaced by some data):



(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=398547;image)



c) program the i2C master to send 70 byte long payload - check the result (the first 3 columns in the table were overwritten by the previously decoded data):


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=398549;image)


2) I also noticed that sometimes the last saved screenshot is not saved on the USB drive. it might be a result of some caching and I am not sure how to handle properly  safe removal of USB drive since looks like 1204X-E does not provide any options for that.

3) And finally: looks like Siglent does not provide a way to inspect data payload longer than 0x15 bytes. The max number of bytes displayed in the single row of the table is 0x10 and there is no horizontal scrolling. The max number of decoded bytes shown at the bottom of the screen about ox16 without a possibility to properly scroll it. Before someone suggests to use horizontal position/scale knob he has to try  it first since it does not work. That, seemingly minor thing, upsets me the most since it might be a design flaw and therefore cannot be easily fixed without major changes.

I would appreciate if one of Siglent distributors reported these bugs to Siglent.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 25, 2018, 04:00:25 am

I would like to report on the recently found problems/bugs:
 
2) I also noticed that sometimes the last saved screenshot is not saved on the USB drive. it might be a result of some caching and I am not sure how to handle properly  safe removal of USB drive since looks like 1204X-E does not provide any options for that.
There has never been provision for USB 'safe removal' in Siglent equipment. Instead a saving bar graph indicator lets you see progress of the Save. A USB stick with a read/write LED can be useful to let you see the drive is not working.

Quote
3) And finally: looks like Siglent does not provide a way to inspect data payload longer than 0x15 bytes. The max number of bytes displayed in the single row of the table is 0x10 and there is no horizontal scrolling. The max number of decoded bytes shown at the bottom of the screen about ox16 without a possibility to properly scroll it. Before someone suggests to use horizontal position/scale knob he has to try  it first since it does not work. That, seemingly minor thing, upsets me the most since it might be a design flaw and therefore cannot be easily fixed without major changes.

Quote
I would appreciate if one of Siglent distributors reported these bugs to Siglent.
Noted, thanks.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 25, 2018, 05:28:44 am
Simple Bode plot exercise/example.

1 KHz to 30 KHz passive band pass filter.
Components breadboarded from parts on hand.
Based entirely on the circuit example from here:
https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/filter_4.html (https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/filter_4.html)

(https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/filter-fil85.gif)



Should give us something like this:

(https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/filter-fil17.gif)


SDS1104X-E
Sweep source SAG1021 optional AWG module
Connection HW; BNC cable and Tee, 2x BNC to croc clip leads (DUT IN, DUT OUT)

Sweep = 100 Hz - 100 KHz, 4V p-p, Low res

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=398589)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rigol52 on February 25, 2018, 06:17:45 am
Nice demo tautech, thanks.

Are visual differences between each curve possible in color too, or in trace light intensity only?

Curious how much more cable mess are added to desktop measurement procedure by deciding
to external (USB connected) SAG1021 instead to build in one? Personally prefer build-in one or
standalone AWG. One more reason to invest in SDG1062X (or SDG1032X) before SAG1021.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 25, 2018, 07:18:44 am
Nice demo tautech, thanks.
You're welcome and it's been on my mind to do it for some time.
Actually I might go back and do the same one again, this time with a plot of the first stage of the pass band.
Have to get my head around what I'm trying to show first.  :-/O  :-//
3 plotted stages are allowed with the 4 inputs.

Quote
Are visual differences between each curve possible in color too, or in trace light intensity only?
Trace colors are the same as the channel colors but you can only select from three as one is reserved for the reference signal input. There is no restriction on the channel you select for ref or DUT output (Bode plot input).
The fainter trace is phase shift and referenced from the RH graph axis.
I've cranked trace and graticule brightness to max for this screenshot to help with visibility.

Quote
Curious how much more cable mess are added to desktop measurement procedure by deciding
to external (USB connected) SAG1021 instead to build in one?

Little, in fact only the mains supply cable for a standalone AWG and that'll be behind a unit anyway.
You still need to tether it by USB when in Bode plot mode for the scope to take charge of it. But that can be done behind both units as 1004X-E's have a rear USB-A just for this purpose. Standalone's have USB-B on the rear but both these scopes and SDG's come supplied each with a A-B USB cable.
So effectively if using a Siglent standalone and all rear cabling there is one less cable on the bench than with SAG1021.

Quote
Personally prefer build-in one or standalone AWG. One more reason to invest in SDG1062X (or SDG1032X) before SAG1021.
Understood, but at least buyers can have a # of options depending on their needs.
The cheapest is to just get SAG1021 IF Bode plot functionality is all you need, then for a bit more the AWG license for it to give full (but somewhat limited) AWG capability.
Then of course any of the 2ch Siglent AWG's would be the best choice to get something that will do Bode plot and not be so easily outgrown.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 26, 2018, 06:49:08 am
Hi,
I've updated my SDS1104X-E with the new firmware but now I notice something strange on channel 4.
I can't see any signal with 50V/div, 5V/div, 1V/div, 200 mv/div (probe set to x10, with x1 the values are 5V, 500mV, 100mV, 20mV). To be more precise I can see the signal only for an instant after changing the V/div scale and then it disappears.
I never noticed this with the previous fimware so I think that is a firmware problem.

can someone check this? or can I try something to figure out what is going on?

Thanks
Now that the factory is back at work after Chinese new year hols and after checking they were aware of issues with v7.6.1.20, they've replied that they're trying to get a replacement firmware version out this later week.

I found a bug related to displaying long IC2 decoded packets, I am running the latest X.20 firmware.
Look at the first column in the table, we cannot see the row 9:
.............
If they can fit it in they'll try and address this too but their immediate focus is to fix the problem in v7.6.1.20

Thanks guys.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on February 26, 2018, 07:41:00 am
Now that the factory is back at work after Chinese new year hols and after checking they were aware of issues with v7.6.1.20, they've replied that they're trying to get a replacement firmware version out this later week.

thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 26, 2018, 08:18:19 am
Actually I might go back and do the same one again, this time with a plot of the first stage of the pass band.
2 passive filter stages Bode plot example.
From previous:

(https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/fil16.gif)

This time we're using a total of three scope inputs, one for ref and two from the filter for the plot. As before in green for the full band pass filter and then another connection from the middle plotting just the high pass stage, now displayed in cyan.
No settings were changed although the Bode plot auto-ranging has changed the look of the plotted display.
3x BNC to croc clip leads used now, all I have. (for now)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=399022)
 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 26, 2018, 10:17:31 am
After nice bode plot examples by @Tautech

About aliasing and scope BW.

If we have 500MSa/s sampling and oscolloscope front end is nominally 200MHz or 100MHz and front ends do not have quite rare "brickwall" response we have mostly slowly decaying shape after nominal frequency limit (-3dB points). After then front end can still transfer more or less attenuated lot of higher frequency components to ADC input.
If they are included to ADC sampling they produce aliases if these components are over Nyquist frequency if we have ideal Sinc construction and infinite data. But we do not have. Depending about what level of accuracy we talk and depending Sinc function parameters etc we can say some rough thumb rule that mostly visually somehow acceptable limit is around 70 - 85% from Nyquist limit. Depending Sinc and depending also how critically we look this. But, if we need really example measure with higher accuracy risetimes we need throw away this kind of over simplified thumb rules.
No need now go dfeeper but who want, can easy find some calculation examples for find real needs related to needes risetime but also samplerate.

Back to main road.

This image is example what show that two scopes many ways same (same Sinc performance etc) and both 500MSa/s. Other front end is 100MHz and other 200MHz. It can clearly show that 100MHz BW can give some protection against aliasing. Naturally, because 100MHz model ADC (both have same ADC) see less these frequency components what go to area where aliasing start.


Both scopes get equal signal. All is equal exept front end before ADC. 
There is some possible that 100MHz model have also some differencies in signal handling after ADC but, once produced aliases can not remove by software and only what poroduce aliasing is ADC so around all what matters is what signal ADC see. (this have totally nothing to do with screen pixel "aliasing" so do not mix this alising here at all - it is only cosmetic for eye). THis test signal most important think is rise and fall time. Not so much its shape other way. These edges are these what are important for harmonics what go far over both scopes Nyquist frequency and very specially when sampolerate is 500MSa/s (SDS1202X-E both channels in use)

Images marked A,B,C and D show this effect.
This effect of course dissappear if I remove these high frequency components from signal before scope input. Example using slower rise times.

Here need note that this used signal is far over these both scopes performance. If you need accurately measure this kind of signal these both oscilloscopes are not suitable. They can not hadle well this kind of signals higher frequency components specially if sample rate is dropped to 500MSa/s. With 1GSa/s there is not so much aliasing but still signal rtise times are far over these both scopes. But with 500MHz Nyquist and even 400MHz (0.8 Nyquist) ADC do not see lot of these higher components due to front end attenuation also with 200MHz model)

If our signal do not exeed scope performance this problem (aliasing) do not exista. And here come this - is it really wise to hack BW up if it leads high or very extreme aliasing. If want better oscilloscope by own modifications, one good  place is analog front end before ADC and there making BW shape more like flat top and then very fast decaying so that  0.8 * Nyquist is highly attrenuated.
It is very different if we are talking oscilloscopes what do real repetitive aka equal time sampling for continuous signals. There we can tweak front end up without first hit aliasing problems.

There in image is last parts where oscilloscopes are in DOTS mode.
These oscilloscopes dots mode is not at all like repetitive sampling (equal time sampling) dots.
After scope and actual signal is in "aliasing position" this dots mode also is affected due to aliasing but it still looks like it draw only single line (sequential dots on the screen looks more or less like line depending dots density) but line is more or less bended (some times they may look very weird) but in some cases it do not give this warning about aliasing .. like lines display modes give due to lines "wobbling" areas. (some times you see only example corners very fat in lines draw mode (linear or sinc) but if signal itself do not have this wobbling it is always ign about aliasing what user need regognize as warning about possible aliasing.   But this dot mode do not give directly this warning. (exept if user have experience and know that there is now something wrong)
Of course wise user immediately check aliasing turning changing from dots mode to vector (lines) mode and then linear or Sinc.  Some cases linear is better for digital pulse/squarte type signals even if they are not so nice looking cosmetically. (not Sinc overshoot. Compare images marked A and C where A show lor of Sinc overhoot.)


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=399073;image)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on February 26, 2018, 03:48:39 pm
Little, in fact only the mains supply cable for a standalone AWG and that'll be behind a unit anyway.
You still need to tether it by USB when in Bode plot mode for the scope to take charge of it. But that can be done behind both units as 1004X-E's have a rear USB-A just for this purpose. Standalone's have USB-B on the rear but both these scopes and SDG's come supplied each with a A-B USB cable.
So effectively if using a Siglent standalone and all rear cabling there is one less cable on the bench than with SAG1021.

Hi Tautech,

I've got the 1104 and the 1032 and was experimenting with the Bode mode.  In the manual, it states that the 1104 can connect to the AWG via LAN as well, however, I tried it (briefly) and I couldn't get it to work.  Are you saying that only the USB connection will work?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 26, 2018, 04:10:38 pm
I've got the 1104 and the 1032 and was experimenting with the Bode mode.  In the manual, it states that the 1104 can connect to the AWG via LAN as well, however, I tried it (briefly) and I couldn't get it to work.  Are you saying that only the USB connection will work?

I can confirm that AWG control over LAN does not work with the current 7.6.1.20 firmware. Even worse, the AWG gets locked up and it takes quite some time until the scope finally reports that it failed to connect to the AWG.

I've already notified the responsible persons at Siglent.

EDIT: SDG device control over USB works.
EDIT 2: It turned out that it was a specific problem with my early pre-production unit of the SDS1104X-E, which was easily cured by sending just one command to the device.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on February 26, 2018, 04:18:59 pm
I've got the 1104 and the 1032 and was experimenting with the Bode mode.  In the manual, it states that the 1104 can connect to the AWG via LAN as well, however, I tried it (briefly) and I couldn't get it to work.  Are you saying that only the USB connection will work?

I can confirm that AWG control over LAN does not work with the current 7.6.1.20 firmware. Even worse, the AWG gets locked up and it takes quite some time until the scope finally reports that it failed to connect to the AWG.

I've already notified the responsible persons at Siglent.

EDIT: SDG device control over USB works.

Thanks for the quick confirmation, Performa01!  I actually did re-scan your review documents first before I posted (which are excellent by the way!)  I'm also running 7.6.1.20.  I guess it's USB connectivity for now...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rigol52 on February 26, 2018, 05:02:02 pm
After nice bode plot examples by @Tautech

About aliasing and scope BW.


Thanks for more valuable explanation, tests and infos than in Siglent  user manual rf-loop (Tautech, Performa01 and other contributors as well).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 26, 2018, 07:54:15 pm

I can confirm that AWG control over LAN does not work with the current 7.6.1.20 firmware.
I've already notified the responsible persons at Siglent.

EDIT: SDG device control over USB works.
Oh dear.....all this Bode plot connectivity worked fine even in beta test units.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Siglent America on February 26, 2018, 08:20:28 pm
Hi,
I've updated my SDS1104X-E with the new firmware but now I notice something strange on channel 4.
I can't see any signal with 50V/div, 5V/div, 1V/div, 200 mv/div (probe set to x10, with x1 the values are 5V, 500mV, 100mV, 20mV). To be more precise I can see the signal only for an instant after changing the V/div scale and then it disappears.
I never noticed this with the previous fimware so I think that is a firmware problem.

can someone check this? or can I try something to figure out what is going on?

Thanks

We are working on a fix for this right now and I expect to see a FW upgrade very soon.
Thanks
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on February 26, 2018, 10:42:06 pm

I can confirm that AWG control over LAN does not work with the current 7.6.1.20 firmware.
I've already notified the responsible persons at Siglent.

EDIT: SDG device control over USB works.
Oh dear.....all this Bode plot connectivity worked fine even in beta test units.  :-//

Ok, so I tried the USB connection from 1104->1032 and it works.  Then, for giggles, I went back and re-configured for LAN and it worked!  I then unplugged the USB cable just to make sure and it still works.  I don't know if I fat-fingered something the first time or what?  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 26, 2018, 11:30:36 pm

I can confirm that AWG control over LAN does not work with the current 7.6.1.20 firmware.
I've already notified the responsible persons at Siglent.

EDIT: SDG device control over USB works.
Oh dear.....all this Bode plot connectivity worked fine even in beta test units.  :-//

Ok, so I tried the USB connection from 1104->1032 and it works.  Then, for giggles, I went back and re-configured for LAN and it worked!  I then unplugged the USB cable just to make sure and it still works.  I don't know if I fat-fingered something the first time or what?  :-//
I haven't checked lately but when I beta tested 1104X-E I had some little problems too until I got my head around proper LAN configuration. There were no English manuals back then and if you didn't do this sort of stuff everyday (I don't) it was a little battle so I'll check the latest manual when I have a mo to see if the connectivity instructions need any improvements.

Anyways, you're up and running now.  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on February 27, 2018, 12:40:24 am
I made a similar filter as your last post, with similar results using the LAN configuration.  However, I think I might be running into the disappearing trace bug someone else mentioned that is confusing the plot when I use channel 4.  I'm still investigating, but my channel 4 trace disappears when vertical = 2V/ and 200mV/.   :wtf:

Yes,this is definitely the case.  The last pic shows the correct ch 4 trace on the bode plot when it's at 1V/.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 27, 2018, 08:33:02 am

2) I also noticed that sometimes the last saved screenshot is not saved on the USB drive. it might be a result of some caching and I am not sure how to handle properly  safe removal of USB drive since looks like 1204X-E does not provide any options for that.
There has never been provision for USB 'safe removal' in Siglent equipment. Instead a saving bar graph indicator lets you see progress of the Save. A USB stick with a read/write LED can be useful to let you see the drive is not working.


When the file is saved on the USB drive, there is a message on the 1204X-E screen saying that the file has been saved. And if in 5 minutes after the message has been shown the flash drive is removed and the file mentioned in the message is not saved on the drive then I don't see how a a read/write LED  can change it.
I wonder what kind of USB drives are supported by 1204X-E (I cannot find any info in the documentation). I have 4 different USB drivers ranging from cheap 4GB USB2.0 to expensive Samsung T1 USB 3.0 250GB and the only USB flash drive that works is the old and really slow 4GB USB 2.0. In all other cases after connecting a new USB flash drive nothing really happens (i.e. there is no message saying that the drive was connected) , but after 4-7 seconds  there is a message on the screen saying - " USB flash drive removed." - at this moment the USB flash is still connected to 1204X-E but obviously not recognized.
May be there is some file system type/ drive size / power consumption limitations that we should be aware of ?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 27, 2018, 09:15:31 am

2) I also noticed that sometimes the last saved screenshot is not saved on the USB drive. it might be a result of some caching and I am not sure how to handle properly  safe removal of USB drive since looks like 1204X-E does not provide any options for that.
There has never been provision for USB 'safe removal' in Siglent equipment. Instead a saving bar graph indicator lets you see progress of the Save. A USB stick with a read/write LED can be useful to let you see the drive is not working.


When the file is saved on the USB drive, there is a message on the 1204X-E screen saying that the file has been saved. And if in 5 minutes after the message has been shown the flash drive is removed and the file mentioned in the message is not saved on the drive then I don't see how a a read/write LED  can change it.
I wonder what kind of USB drives are supported by 1204X-E (I cannot find any info in the documentation). I have 4 different USB drivers ranging from cheap 4GB USB2.0 to expensive Samsung T1 USB 3.0 250GB and the only USB flash drive that works is the old and really slow 4GB USB 2.0. In all other cases after connecting a new USB flash drive nothing really happens (i.e. there is no message saying that the drive was connected) , but after 4-7 seconds  there is a message on the screen saying - " USB flash drive removed." - at this moment the USB flash is still connected to 1204X-E but obviously not recognized.
May be there is some file system type/ drive size / power consumption limitations that we should be aware of ?
There certainly is but with a quick look through the documentation I can't find it.  >:(

But it's something like FAT 32, 8 Gb max.

rf-loop should know exactly............meanwhile I'll look some more.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 27, 2018, 09:46:30 am

2) I also noticed that sometimes the last saved screenshot is not saved on the USB drive. it might be a result of some caching and I am not sure how to handle properly  safe removal of USB drive since looks like 1204X-E does not provide any options for that.
There has never been provision for USB 'safe removal' in Siglent equipment. Instead a saving bar graph indicator lets you see progress of the Save. A USB stick with a read/write LED can be useful to let you see the drive is not working.




When the file is saved on the USB drive, there is a message on the 1204X-E screen saying that the file has been saved. And if in 5 minutes after the message has been shown the flash drive is removed and the file mentioned in the message is not saved on the drive then I don't see how a a read/write LED  can change it.
I wonder what kind of USB drives are supported by 1204X-E (I cannot find any info in the documentation). I have 4 different USB drivers ranging from cheap 4GB USB2.0 to expensive Samsung T1 USB 3.0 250GB and the only USB flash drive that works is the old and really slow 4GB USB 2.0. In all other cases after connecting a new USB flash drive nothing really happens (i.e. there is no message saying that the drive was connected) , but after 4-7 seconds  there is a message on the screen saying - " USB flash drive removed." - at this moment the USB flash is still connected to 1204X-E but obviously not recognized.
May be there is some file system type/ drive size / power consumption limitations that we should be aware of ?

I have used Kingston data traveller 4Gb and Kingston DTSE9 8Gb and DTGE9 8Gb. All they have worked without any problems. Some may say they are slow. Ok they are but I can ask - is it any kind of problem. One PNG image is typically uder 20kb. It is transferred so fast that pressing image save ("Print") button is more slow. Then if save very huge .CSV. CSV building process is so slow that USB speed is not main bottle neck. (2Ch 14M acquistion saving to USB in  .CSV format takes lot of time and this time is not because USB speed imho.

Afaik USB flash stick need be in native Windows FAT32 format and some older time I remember I have read some information that it also need be in one partition. USB hard drives are not supported afaik.

Extra note: Never use any USB flash for FW update until you are absolutely sure this works with scope without any problem. Always compare downloaded and unzipped .ADS file with example CRC-32 and then after copied to USB check CRC-32 match.

https://www.siglentamerica.com/operating-tip/save-external-usb-sds-series-oscilloscopes/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/operating-tip/save-external-usb-sds-series-oscilloscopes/)

Advice to Siglent:
I hope Siglent give exact full specifications about USB flash. What are accepted limits in size, speed and accepted allocation unit sizes. Why it is so difficult to tell things exactly. This is not like political debate, this is a technical thing and this  can define exactly and completely. Or is this some kind of fun game where player needs guesswork.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MARCOS BR on February 27, 2018, 03:22:52 pm
"Probes PP215".
I checked through the jpg "Probe Characteristics" that probe "PP215" has "200MHz" of "Bandwidth".
Please note that it is appropriate for the "Bandwidth" 100HMHz "SDS1104X-E" model, as it "exceeds the specifications" of this model ...
The model "SDS1204X-E" is for "200MHz" of "Bandwidth", and certainly needs a "probe" that "exceeds this specification".

Question: In the case of SDS1204X-E, should Siglent not supply with a "Probe" of at least "300MHz"?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 27, 2018, 08:37:28 pm
Hello,

I am very curious about SPL1016 logic analyzer probe. Could someone, who already has it, publish an unbiased and detailed review of the device in order to help users like me to decide if it's worth getting it?

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 28, 2018, 01:34:30 am
Hi,
I've updated my SDS1104X-E with the new firmware but now I notice something strange on channel 4.
I can't see any signal with 50V/div, 5V/div, 1V/div, 200 mv/div (probe set to x10, with x1 the values are 5V, 500mV, 100mV, 20mV). To be more precise I can see the signal only for an instant after changing the V/div scale and then it disappears.
I never noticed this with the previous fimware so I think that is a firmware problem.

can someone check this? or can I try something to figure out what is going on?

Thanks
Now that the factory is back at work after Chinese new year hols and after checking they were aware of issues with v7.6.1.20, they've replied that they're trying to get a replacement firmware version out this later week.

I found a bug related to displaying long IC2 decoded packets, I am running the latest X.20 firmware.
Look at the first column in the table, we cannot see the row 9:
.............
If they can fit it in they'll try and address this too but their immediate focus is to fix the problem in v7.6.1.20

Thanks guys.
The guys at the factory have a fix for v7.6.1.20.

New version.
Version: v7.6.1.20R1
http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4071&tid=15 (http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4071&tid=15)

Changelog
1.Fixed a bug in 6.1.20 which maybe cause signal disappear after self-calibration for Channels?
2.Supported all of Siglent’s SDG instruments in Bode Plot
3.Add MSO/Logic functionality
4. Added automatic vertical scale (volts/div) in Bode Plot mode
5.Added USB WiFi support.
6.Optimized the WiFi GUI
7.Automatic Roll mode selection will be disabled if manually disabled once.
8.Renamed Runt-Trigger in German
9.Fixed a bug in the I2C triggering system of 7 bit Address& Data
10.Improved Auto Setup function with 1K compensation output
11.Improved waveform update when using sequence mode on long timebases
12.Optimize self-calibration for Channels
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on February 28, 2018, 07:27:47 am
Hi,
I've updated my SDS1104X-E with the new firmware but now I notice something strange on channel 4.
I can't see any signal with 50V/div, 5V/div, 1V/div, 200 mv/div (probe set to x10, with x1 the values are 5V, 500mV, 100mV, 20mV). To be more precise I can see the signal only for an instant after changing the V/div scale and then it disappears.
I never noticed this with the previous fimware so I think that is a firmware problem.

can someone check this? or can I try something to figure out what is going on?

Thanks
Now that the factory is back at work after Chinese new year hols and after checking they were aware of issues with v7.6.1.20, they've replied that they're trying to get a replacement firmware version out this later week.

I found a bug related to displaying long IC2 decoded packets, I am running the latest X.20 firmware.
Look at the first column in the table, we cannot see the row 9:
.............
If they can fit it in they'll try and address this too but their immediate focus is to fix the problem in v7.6.1.20

Thanks guys.
The guys at the factory have a fix for v7.6.1.20.

New version.
Version: v7.6.1.20R1
http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4071&tid=15 (http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4071&tid=15)

Changelog
1.Fixed a bug in 6.1.20 which maybe cause signal disappear after self-calibration for Channels?
2.Supported all of Siglent’s SDG instruments in Bode Plot
3.Add MSO/Logic functionality
4. Added automatic vertical scale (volts/div) in Bode Plot mode
5.Added USB WiFi support.
6.Optimized the WiFi GUI
7.Automatic Roll mode selection will be disabled if manually disabled once.
8.Renamed Runt-Trigger in German
9.Fixed a bug in the I2C triggering system of 7 bit Address& Data
10.Improved Auto Setup function with 1K compensation output
11.Improved waveform update when using sequence mode on long timebases
12.Optimize self-calibration for Channels

THANKS!
I'm going to it later today!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on February 28, 2018, 01:29:04 pm
That's great!  I'll also give v7.6.1.20R1 a spin tonight!  Though, from the changelog doc included with the firmware, it seems only the top two items are in .20R1 and the rest was already in .20...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 28, 2018, 02:53:55 pm
That's great!  I'll also give v7.6.1.20R1 a spin tonight!  Though, from the changelog doc included with the firmware, it seems only the top two items are in .20R1 and the rest was already in .20...

Yes.

1.Fixed a bug in 6.1.20 which maybe cause signal disappear
This was urgent fix for fatal error in 7.6.1.20
Also this fix was amazing fast if look this time when whole Siglent China have been vacation (Chinese major annual holiday "Spring festival holiday"

Whole list is there because FW7.6.1.20 is deleted and do not exist for download.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MARCOS BR on February 28, 2018, 04:15:37 pm
"Probes PP215".
I checked through the jpg "Probe Characteristics" that probe "PP215" has "200MHz" of "Bandwidth".
Please note that it is appropriate for the "Bandwidth" 100HMHz "SDS1104X-E" model, as it "exceeds the specifications" of this model ...
The model "SDS1204X-E" is for "200MHz" of "Bandwidth", and certainly needs a "probe" that "exceeds this specification".

Question: In the case of SDS1204X-E, should Siglent not supply with a "Probe" of at least "300MHz"?

The model "SDS1104X-E" may come with "STD" "4pçs PP510"; and "SDS1204X-E" and "SDS1202X-E" can come with "Probe PP215" ...
http://www.saelig.com/product/sds1204x-e.htm (http://www.saelig.com/product/sds1204x-e.htm)

But for the "200MHz Bandwidth" Oscilloscope models, it may be the Siglent "Probe" model fitting, the "Probe PP430" with "Bandwidth = 300MHz - 12pF".
However, Siglent has the "Probe" models: "PB925" (250MHz -16pF) and "SP2030A (300MHz - 12pF).

http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/DataSheet/SIGLENT%20%20Probe%20Datasheet%20V1.2.pdf (http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/DataSheet/SIGLENT%20%20Probe%20Datasheet%20V1.2.pdf)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 28, 2018, 04:39:35 pm
The PP510 and PP215 probes are perfectly fine for the scopes they ship with. Higher bandwidth specification does not automatically mean better performance.

The table below shows the bandwidth for -1, -3 and -6dB as well as the transition times for various probes on a 200MHz SDS1202X-E. The real important parameters are the -1dB bandwidth and the transition times. The only probe that actually performs a little bit better than the PP215 overall would be the Pico Tech TA131.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=399766;image)
Probe Comparison 3

See the comparison here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MARCOS BR on February 28, 2018, 07:58:22 pm
The PP510 and PP215 probes are perfectly fine for the scopes they ship with. Higher bandwidth specification does not automatically mean better performance.

The table below shows the bandwidth for -1, -3 and -6dB as well as the transition times for various probes on a 200MHz SDS1202X-E. The real important parameters are the -1dB bandwidth and the transition times. The only probe that actually performs a little bit better than the PP215 overall would be the Pico Tech TA131.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=399766)
Probe Comparison 3

See the comparison here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665)

Mr.  Performa01

Thank you very much for the clarification.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on February 28, 2018, 10:42:55 pm
SDS1104X-E
No more disappearing traces with v7.6.1.20R1   :D

Bode plot seems to be working fine still with LAN connection to SDG1032X.

One thing I have been noticing, and perhaps I'm using it wrong, is that using the Update button on the scope web server doesn't seem to work.  I click the button, select the ADS file, and it tries to perform the transfer, then it reports this problem "FAIL: move file fail"

 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: sbrom on March 01, 2018, 02:11:27 pm
Anyone have an SDS1x04X-E on order, with a projected delivery date?

On Feb 11,  I ordered the 1104X-E from Saelig.  The next day they notified me of a projected late-MARCH ship date. 

FYI - there's nothing on Saelig's web site indicating the scope is out of stock.  They wait until you "buy" before telling you.   :-- ....a definite opportunity for improvement in customer service.   

Thanks,
sbrom
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: wohali on March 01, 2018, 11:05:22 pm
I have an order in as of last week for the same model with Transcat. Their website says "2-3 weeks" wait on the backorder. (I also ordered an SDG2042X; that one is listed as "1-2 weeks".)

I get the sense everyone is out of stock, and likely the next shipment hasn't even been made yet. China is still finishing up holiday celebrations; the Lantern Festival is today, Friday March 2. I expect the earliest a shipment would go out would be Monday the 5th, and that's assuming the units are boxed and ready to go...big assumption.

Shame on Saelig's website...I just keep telling myself "Patience, Grasshopper." At this rate, the oldy moldy LeCroy DDA-120 I scored off of eBay for US$500 will arrive before the Siglents  :-DD
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ian.ameline on March 02, 2018, 02:48:01 am
If you buy the USB based AWG box (SDG1021) do you also need to pay seperately for a software licence to unlock it's capabilities on the scope?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 02, 2018, 03:06:14 am
If you buy the USB based AWG box (SDG1021) do you also need to pay seperately for a software licence to unlock it's capabilities on the scope?
Yes but only for its general AWG capabilities, not for Bode plot usage. List is $109 for the SDS1000X-E-FG license option.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ian.ameline on March 02, 2018, 04:40:59 am
Can it do anything other than the bode plot without that software? or is it just a brick?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 02, 2018, 04:50:50 am
Can it do anything other than the bode plot without that software? or is it just a brick?
The SW license enables permanent usage for ordinary AWG usage but you should be able to use it for a limited # of times until the trial times expire. I think it's 30 uses.......sorry no new stock until next week to check for you.


Other members with new units and no permanent FG (AWG) license can check for us by looking in the Utility/Option sub-menu. Status will be Trials # remaining or Permanent.


Edit.
You can at anytime in the future if you decide you need the FG permanent licensing, contact your local seller and buy the FG license. You'll be sent a code and a online link where you goto and enter this code, model # and SN# and the option licensing code is generated. Then enter it into the DSO in the Options/Install menu to make the license permanent.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 02, 2018, 06:36:59 am
More detailed technical information about the SAG1021 can be found here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1432665/#msg1432665 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1432665/#msg1432665)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on March 02, 2018, 10:30:01 am
no more signal disappearing! awesome!

thanks
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bear207 on March 02, 2018, 06:56:00 pm
Anyone have an SDS1x04X-E on order, with a projected delivery date?
........
FYI - there's nothing on Saelig's web site indicating the scope is out of stock.  They wait until you "buy" before telling you.   :-- ....a definite opportunity for improvement in customer service.   

Thanks,
sbrom
Ordered and received this email reply from Saelig below.
Would have been nice to know they were out of stock, yet I was also taking advantage of their EEVblog discount code as well which I appreciate.

BTW - thank you to all for this thread and such great discussion.  Some of you folks are putting in serious time with these reviews, tests and comments.  Very helpful to the community!

"Hello Gary,

Thank you for your order. At this time we are out of stock of the SDS1104-E.  We have them on order with our vendor but due to factory delays and the Chinese New Year we have been informed that they will ship to us at the end of March. Please advise us on how to proceed.

Kind Regards,

Nate Brown
Saelig Company, Inc. "
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ian.ameline on March 03, 2018, 12:05:05 am
It looks like in Canada for $150 (CDN) more I can get a SDG-2042X -- it is way more than twice the instrument -- almost 10x the sample rate, 2x the bandwidth, 2 channels, & way more features.

Charging extra for the software seems sleazy to me -- if you sell me the hardware, it should work.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 03, 2018, 02:14:11 am
It looks like in Canada for $150 (CDN) more I can get a SDG-2042X -- it is way more than twice the instrument -- almost 10x the sample rate, 2x the bandwidth, 2 channels, & way more features.

Charging extra for the software seems sleazy to me -- if you sell me the hardware, it should work.
Each to their own.

It does work and straight out of the box with SDS1004X-E scopes.....for Bode plot !
If you want the additional AWG functionality then you need buy it.....or not.
If you only need the full Bode plot functionality with SDS1004X-E scopes, SAG1021 is the cheapest option.
Note, I did not claim best !

If you need further AWG capabilities, then yes, there are better Siglent AWG solutions that can also support the Bode plot feature.

Here, Siglent have given buyers choices that can fit their needs and the budget available.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 03, 2018, 05:12:49 pm
As there have been complaints regarding USB, I just did a quick test with several USB sticks – all of them fairly old, some even right from the stone age. I have often seen the advice for various instruments from various manufacturers to use flash drives up to 4GB with FAT file system only, so I was curious how the Siglent SDS1104X-E would deal with the bigger ones. I would have liked to try even higher than 32GB, but I can’t find anything bigger/better here in my lab, so someone else would have to chime in for that.

NoName                   512MB   FAT16 USB2
Platinum                 2GB     FAT16 USB2
Transcend LF V30/        4GB     FAT32 USB2
SanDisk cruzer contour   8GB     FAT32 USB2 (with additional ~7MB CDFS partition)
SanDisk cruzer edge     16GB     FAT32 USB2
Transcend               32GB     FAT32 USB3

All these were recognized by the scope without problems and the directory could be displayed correctly.

I happen to have two of the NoName 512MB and these are regularly in use with the Siglent scopes, have always been absolutely reliable and I never felt they were slow either.

I also tested the remaining ones by storing a screenshot on each of them. To my surprise even the oddball SanDisk cruzer contour worked without problems just like the others.

For the screenshot tests I removed the sticks immediately after the “saved to file …” message of the scope had disappeared. No loss of data, no problems. There was no noticeable speed difference, but then again, what to expect when a screenshot just takes a fraction of a second anyway?

This got me curious to make a quick performance test: writing binary raw data for a 4x7Mpts record. This results in a 26.74MB binary file. Since all these sticks have seen heavy use before and were not even freshly formatted (which is unlikely to make a difference anyway), write speed could be expected to be as slow as it gets. For a fair comparison, I took three measurements for each device and only used the fastest result. After all it’s more about the performance of the scope and not the ancient sticks.

USB Stick                     time (s)    Speed (MB/s)
NoName 512MB                  3.23         8.20
Platinum 2GB                  8.35         3.20
Transcend LF V30/4GB          6.11         4.38
SanDisk cruzer contour 8GB    2.99         8.94
SanDisk cruzer edge 16GB      2.85         9.38
Transcend 32GB                2.66        10.05

And the winner is … pretty much all except for the old Transcend LF V30 and particularly the slow Platinum (in actual fact another noname), which takes the red lantern, but all others are pretty close.

It is interesting to see that age and size don’t make much of a difference and even after that test I do not see any reason to replace my old 512MB FAT16 nonames.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on March 05, 2018, 04:32:55 am
As there have been complaints regarding USB, I just did a quick test with several USB sticks – all of them fairly old, some even right from the stone age. I have often seen the advice for various instruments from various manufacturers to use flash drives up to 4GB with FAT file system only, so I was curious how the Siglent SDS1104X-E would deal with the bigger ones. I would have liked to try even higher than 32GB, but I can’t find anything bigger/better here in my lab, so someone else would have to chime in for that.

Indeed there was a complaint regarding USB. In my case only really the old SanDisk Cruzer Edge (4GB)  worked, more modern Kingston Data Travel 2.0 64 GB and SanDisk Extreme 64GB 3.0 did not work. The reason why they did not work is that they were formatted as NTFS and exFAT (tautech mentioned that  8) in one of his replies). After reformatting one of those drives and using FAT32 (I ended up with 32GB single partition although it was a 64GB drive, it seems to be Windows imposed limitation) it was recognized by SDS1204X-E.
A side note about reformatting high performance USB 3.0 flash drives: some of them are being formatted with proper partition alignment during manufacturing. After the user mindlessly reformats such a flash drive its performance can and most likely degrade.

I also tested the remaining ones by storing a screenshot on each of them. To my surprise even the oddball SanDisk cruzer contour worked without problems just like the others.
For the screenshot tests I removed the sticks immediately after the “saved to file …” message of the scope had disappeared. No loss of data, no problems. There was no noticeable speed difference, but then again, what to expect when a screenshot just takes a fraction of a second anyway?


It's nice to know that it flawlessly worked for you but I can hardly see that as a proof that certain SDS1204X-E having/running a particular version of hardware/firmware  (but to tell the truth I don't know how much that matters in this situation, nevertheless this is how the test should be performed in case  if those things do matter otherwise we will have something similar to what we had regarding PP215 probes, i.e. same labels, different parameters etc)  cannot have a problem with storing screenshots.
At  the moment I am using a simple workaround (I did not save many of them since my last post though) by saving one more screenshot even if I don't need it making sure that the previous one was stored on the external drive. If I really wanted to know the answer to this question I would use an USB  protocol analyzer to see what is going on on the bus before/after the message on the screen, but I don't care that much.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 05, 2018, 04:54:25 am
As there have been complaints regarding USB, I just did a quick test with several USB sticks – all of them fairly old, some even right from the stone age. I have often seen the advice for various instruments from various manufacturers to use flash drives up to 4GB with FAT file system only, so I was curious how the Siglent SDS1104X-E would deal with the bigger ones. I would have liked to try even higher than 32GB, but I can’t find anything bigger/better here in my lab, so someone else would have to chime in for that.

Indeed there was a complaint regarding USB. In my case only really the old SanDisk Cruzer Edge (4GB)  worked, more modern Kingston Data Travel 2.0 64 GB and SanDisk Extreme 64GB 3.0 did not work. The reason why they did not work is that they were formatted as NTFS and exFAT (tautech mentioned that  8) in one of his replies). After reformatting one of those drives and using FAT32 (I ended up with 32GB single partition although it was a 64GB drive, it seems to be Windows imposed limitation) it was recognized by SDS1204X-E.
A side note about reformatting high performance USB 3.0 flash drives: some of them are being formatted with proper partition alignment during manufacturing. After the user mindlessly reformats such a flash drive its performance can and most likely degrade.
Following developments as always, of the USB drives I use with scopes, all are USB 2.0, none are larger than 16GB and all are FAT32 formatted. I've some beaten up old 512MB ones too and none give problems.
Even when we beta tested (SDS1104X-E) there were never any problems and many screenshots were taken to send back to the factory.

17_29bis
I sure understand you concerns over saving screenshots and then they not being on the stick but with a correctly formatted and compatible drive this issue just shouldn't happen. Although I haven't beaten FW 20R1 up much I don't see and reason USB Save wouldn't work as it has in the past. Drives are just so cheap these days, IIRC a pair of 8 GB Strontium's cost me ~$10.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 05, 2018, 06:33:10 am
Ok, so I tried the USB connection from 1104->1032 and it works.  Then, for giggles, I went back and re-configured for LAN and it worked!  I then unplugged the USB cable just to make sure and it still works.  I don't know if I fat-fingered something the first time or what?  :-//

The LAN connection works now for me too :)

Initially, it did not work indeed. Then I saw the changelog for the 7.6.1.20R1 firmware and it says

1.   Supported all of Siglent’s SDG instruments in Bode Plot

So I thought the issue might be device specific and hoped the FW update would cure my problems. It did not.

I have been in contact with Siglent about the issue and it turned out that it was a specific problem with my early pre-production unit of the SDS1104X-E, which was easily cured by sending just one command to the device.

I have also asked what the changelog entry cited above actually means.

The good news is that the SDS1004X-E Bode plot now supports all Siglent SDG waveform generators, not just the X-series.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 08, 2018, 01:22:28 pm
Finally some detail for the SLA1016 LA HW option is available.
https://www.siglentamerica.com/accessory/sla1016/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/accessory/sla1016/)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=402079)

The 'business end' configuration seems quite similar to earlier LA pods for SDS2k and SDS1kX models where a ribbon cable was terminated into the 16ch probe head of which there's two detachable pods of eight channels each plus ground connections. The grabbers appear to be the same USA made type detachable from the soft silicone leads.

This time however we also have a smart controller module that connects to the DSO with a short SBus cable and the module has its own firmware that's upgradable via the DSO's LA user interface through a dedicated firmware upgrade utility.
The SLA1016 must be connected before the firmware upgrade can proceed.
SLA1016 firmware's is already available from Siglent websites.
http://www.siglent.com/ENs/prodcut-gjjrj.aspx?id=1909&tid=1&T=2 (http://www.siglent.com/ENs/prodcut-gjjrj.aspx?id=1909&tid=1&T=2)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 08, 2018, 03:03:06 pm
Finally some detail for the SLA1016 LA HW option is available.
https://www.siglentamerica.com/accessory/sla1016/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/accessory/sla1016/)

From the link above:
NOTE: The scope requires firmware version 7.1.6.20 or greater ==> should read 7.6.1.20!

I got the SLA1016 some week ago, but haven't tried it yet because the Sbus cable was missing in my package. An HDMI cable cannot replace it, so I have to wait for the original one.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on March 08, 2018, 09:20:13 pm
Hello,

tautech & Performa01, assuming that we are talking about stock  SLA1016 LA with the accessories to be used with SDS1204X-E and such.  Could you please show us some closeup  pictures of the  logic analyzer probes? To be more precise I am mostly interested in the following info:

a) a picture of the gripper hook (open) for example:

(https://sigrok.org/wimg/f/f1/Universal_chip_clip_gripper_hook2.jpg)

b) a picture of the several (8-9 would be the most optimal) probes attached to a SOIC IC (pitch 0.050 in (1.27 mm)) for example:

(https://sigrok.org/wimg/3/31/Probe_comparison_ezhook_xkm_3.jpg)

Thanks  in advance!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 08, 2018, 09:30:24 pm
Hello,

tautech & Performa01, assuming that we are talking about stock  SLA1016 LA with the accessories to be used with SDS1204X-E and such.  Could you please show us some closeup  pictures of the  logic analyzer probes?
I reported on those that come with SDS2kX models here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-sds2000x-series/msg984510/#msg984510 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-sds2000x-series/msg984510/#msg984510)

As mentioned those are fine enough to fit SOIC but not smaller. These new ones don't seem that fine from the pics but I'll know for sure on Monday when my new stock arrives.
Performa01 IIRC has grabbers for 2kX and he'll compare them for sure.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on March 08, 2018, 09:56:50 pm
I wonder, since 4ch models can sample twice as fast as 2ch versions (2Gs/s vs 1Gs/s), do they have faster zinq  processor?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 08, 2018, 10:05:42 pm
I wonder, since 4ch models can sample twice as fast as 2ch versions (2Gs/s vs 1Gs/s), do they have faster zinq  processor?
No Bob they can't.
These 1004X-E's have 2x 1Gsa/s ADC's that are assigned to 2 channels each.
So with all four on the max sampling rate is 500Msa/s per channel.
The SDS1202X-E has just a single 1Gsa/s ADC for the same sampling rate with its only 2 channels.

If you must have faster then the SDS2000X series can provide 1Gsa/s with 4 channels active from their 2x 2Gsa/s ADC architecture.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on March 08, 2018, 10:22:16 pm

I reported on those that come with SDS2kX models here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-sds2000x-series/msg984510/#msg984510 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-sds2000x-series/msg984510/#msg984510)
As mentioned those are fine enough to fit SOIC but not smaller. These new ones don't seem that fine from the pics but I'll know for sure on Monday when my new stock arrives.

Those (EZ-Hook i.e.  Agilent  style)   SDS2kX probes are beautiful ones!  I have here 4 different types of probes and these ones are my favorite (got them from DigiKey, wanted to get them in different colors to  distinguish between different LA channels since I never understood why many LA comes with the same color probes). I also have some probes looking similar to the black ones  shown on your picture, that would be (and is) my last choice. Ok, let's wait till your new stock arrives.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 08, 2018, 10:45:48 pm

I reported on those that come with SDS2kX models here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-sds2000x-series/msg984510/#msg984510 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-sds2000x-series/msg984510/#msg984510)
As mentioned those are fine enough to fit SOIC but not smaller. These new ones don't seem that fine from the pics but I'll know for sure on Monday when my new stock arrives.
Those (EZ-Hook i.e.  Agilent  style)   SDS2kX probes are beautiful ones!  I have here 4 different types of probes and these ones are my favorite (got them from DigiKey, wanted to get them in different colors to  distinguish between different LA channels since I never understood why many LA comes with the same color probes). I also have some probes looking similar to the black ones  shown on your picture, that would be (and is) my last choice. Ok, let's wait till your new stock arrives.
The ones I most prefer are old style Tek grabbers like these in this listing:
https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Tektronix-Adapter-Mini-Test-Grabber-40V/272670551628?hash=item3f7c6e6e4c:g:YsEAAOSw42dZF6bp (https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Tektronix-Adapter-Mini-Test-Grabber-40V/272670551628?hash=item3f7c6e6e4c:g:YsEAAOSw42dZF6bp)

They are just so easy to use.
I've only got a few for ordinary scope probe use for the times when an ordinary probe grabber isn't small enough.
You just need make up some short flying leads with a tinned or looped end and on the other a 0.025" Female crimp to fit onto the 0.025 grabber pin.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: lukier on March 08, 2018, 10:59:16 pm
Finally some detail for the SLA1016 LA HW option is available.
https://www.siglentamerica.com/accessory/sla1016/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/accessory/sla1016/)

Thanks for the heads up. I hope Dave/forum members will do a teardown (if it has DACs and comparators or just simple RC matching and a logic buffer) and a review, because it is a quite expensive option.

From Batronix:
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html)

SDS1000X-E-16LA - 113.05 EUR (inc VAT)
Siglent SLA1016 Logic Probes - 342.72 EUR (inc VAT) - I guess Batronix used wrong photo?
Total: 455.77 EUR - almost as much as the scope itself!

What is the logic behind this dual pricing? The hardware is useless without the software option and vice versa. The same for the SAG1021 + SDS1000X-E-FG.
I'm all for making these things optional, but why not include the software option price in the hardware itself?

The only reason I can think of is when one has multiple scopes (classroom?) and only few HW attachments that could be moved between scopes. But then, if the software was already there (no option, just detection of the HW attached to enable the feature) one could move the attachments as well, so this means this dual pricing is to extort some extra money from people running classroom type scenario (as they, for example, need to buy only few AWG dongles but they have to install the SW option on all the scopes).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on March 08, 2018, 11:21:17 pm
The ones I most prefer are old style Tek grabbers like these in this listing:
https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Tektronix-Adapter-Mini-Test-Grabber-40V/272670551628?hash=item3f7c6e6e4c:g:YsEAAOSw42dZF6bp (https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Tektronix-Adapter-Mini-Test-Grabber-40V/272670551628?hash=item3f7c6e6e4c:g:YsEAAOSw42dZF6bp)
They are just so easy to use.

To each his own  8)

May be the original Tektronix grabbers are really so much better, I don't know since I have a replica but this is how it works for me:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=402210;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=402212;image)



Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 08, 2018, 11:27:04 pm
@lukier

These options give a customer purchase options to fit their budget and just as you've identified for classroom use, also repair labs too.
Free trial usages can determine if one buys only the HW and then later a permanent SW license.
In my position I can have the LA HW in stock but not the SW option that BTW needs be generated for the SN# of each scope.

The AWG plus SW is a little different in that there's 3 possibilities of use case.
Only SAG1021 for Bode plot usage. (no SW required)
Full AWG requirements (HW and SW needed)
Bode plot possible with any Siglent standalone AWG

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 09, 2018, 12:03:30 am
The ones I most prefer are old style Tek grabbers like these in this listing:
https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Tektronix-Adapter-Mini-Test-Grabber-40V/272670551628?hash=item3f7c6e6e4c:g:YsEAAOSw42dZF6bp (https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Tektronix-Adapter-Mini-Test-Grabber-40V/272670551628?hash=item3f7c6e6e4c:g:YsEAAOSw42dZF6bp)
They are just so easy to use.

To each his own  8)

May be the original Tektronix grabbers are really so much better, I don't know since I have a replica but this is how it works for me:
Here's a better pic of just one:
https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Tektronix-SMT-KlipChip-Adapter-Test-Clip-Mini-Grabber-206-0364-01-with-Accessory/222294004524?hash=item33c1c1532c:g:s1cAAOSwHsRYEFBB (https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Tektronix-SMT-KlipChip-Adapter-Test-Clip-Mini-Grabber-206-0364-01-with-Accessory/222294004524?hash=item33c1c1532c:g:s1cAAOSwHsRYEFBB)

What do yours measure on the finest/thinest part of the shank ?
The Teks are 1.25mm.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on March 11, 2018, 01:02:35 am
What do yours measure on the finest/thinest part of the shank ?
The Teks are 1.25mm.

My replica of Tektronix  is roughly 1.6 mm which is also not bad but I mostly use EZ-Hooks:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=402763;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 11, 2018, 01:07:03 am
A brief introduction to the SLA/SPL1016 hardware and a comparison of the supplied noname hooks with the E-Z Hooks that come with the SPL2016 for SDS2000(X) can be found here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1449168/#msg1449168 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1449168/#msg1449168)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 13, 2018, 07:54:37 am
Some MSO screenshots.
SDS1104X-E with SLA1016 MSO option
Signal source Siglent STB-3.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=403346)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=403348)

Data from D0 and D1.
D7 set as control channel (red).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on March 14, 2018, 07:42:13 pm
What is the sample rate of SLA1016?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 14, 2018, 10:34:59 pm
What is the sample rate of SLA1016?
Going by the datasheet: Digital Channels: Max. Sampling Rate 1 GSa/s

How that's managed is a good question as there' 2x 1Gsa/s ADC's on board Siglent may have assigned 8 LA channels to each ADC. That would seem logical considering the SDS1004X-E architecture.

On the other hand sampling might be handled in the SLA1016 LA pod.
Teardown Performa01 ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on March 15, 2018, 04:31:20 am
What is the sample rate of SLA1016?
Going by the datasheet: Digital Channels: Max. Sampling Rate 1 GSa/s

How that's managed is a good question as there' 2x 1Gsa/s ADC's on board Siglent may have assigned 8 LA channels to each ADC. That would seem logical considering the SDS1004X-E architecture.

On the other hand sampling might be handled in the SLA1016 LA pod.
Teardown Performa01 ?

2 main ADC's do not LA sampling. They handle analog channels only.

1 LA channel level information is just one bit. 0 or 1. Comparator is enough for this.  There are 16 comparators in SPL1016 head.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on March 15, 2018, 03:08:20 pm
This video from Siglent themselves (published March 2nd) shows unresponsive controls when logic analyzer is running.  @2:58, notice how much knob has to be turned to scroll through the menu options and delay between input and actual move.  Also, that channel selection menu must be at least 20 items long (4 analog+16 digital) - that means lots and lots of turning frustration.

One of the advantages of new Siglent as compared to Rigol is speed.  This video makes me wonder what other GUI places are as unresponsive or badly optimized.

https://youtu.be/2q-aRCLELkk?t=2m58s (https://youtu.be/2q-aRCLELkk?t=2m58s)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q-aRCLELkk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q-aRCLELkk)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 15, 2018, 07:30:32 pm
Bob, the momentary pauses in the display updates are due to the settings being changed with the multifunction control. Each little step of info from the encoder initiates a momentary pause as the DSO changes its internal configuration.
Normal for these models.

What Jason didn't explain about the MSO licensing and in fact for all the available options is that from new trial licensing is active for a 30 use/s duration before permanent licensing need be purchased for unlimited use.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on March 17, 2018, 06:05:55 am
Hello,

I think I found a bug in the newest firmware (1204X-E). When the trigger is set to AC coupling, the change of the trigger level does not show on the screen the horizontal line reflecting the actual trigger level (but it works fine for 3 other types such as  DC etc. Can someone verify that and confirm my observation?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 17, 2018, 06:34:53 am
Hello,

I think I found a bug in the newest firmware (1204X-E). When the trigger is set to AC coupling, the change of the trigger level does not show on the screen the horizontal line reflecting the actual trigger level (but it works fine for 3 other types such as  DC etc. Can someone verify that and confirm my observation?

Thanks.
Your observation is accurate but it is NOT a bug. Instead Siglent chose not to display the trigger level when using AC input coupling as it's always @ 50% when AC coupled.
IIRC Performa01 mentions this in his in depth review.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on March 17, 2018, 06:48:31 am
Your observation is accurate but it is NOT a bug. Instead Siglent chose not to display the trigger level when using AC input coupling as it's always @ 50% when AC coupled.

I don't know what Siglent has chosen, I don't know if the result may depend on the firmware version etc but I still would appreciate if someone verified that for me.
The problem with your statement is that when one chooses AC coupling and changes the trigger level he can clearly see how the trig. level is changing (right top corner of the screen shows the current trig. level), plus if the trig. level is incorrect then the displayed waveform is not  synchronized.  Do I misunderstand something?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 17, 2018, 07:05:52 am
Yes, the missing AC trigger level indicator is mentioned in the review documents (chapter "AC Trigger Coupling", page 71) and in the thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1375999/#msg1375999 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1375999/#msg1375999)
and
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1384751/#msg1384751 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1384751/#msg1384751)

Btw the review text is currently misleading as it states:

The trigger level is set to zero which is actually always equivalent to the mean level of a symmetrical input signal.

We can still adjust the trigger level to any arbitrary value, so the above statement is only true for automatic level setting and it should read:

When using Auto Set by pushing the trigger level control, the trigger level is set to zero which is equivalent to the mean level of a symmetrical input signal.

In short: Siglent currently don't give us an AC (and LF Reject, which is basically just AC with a much higher corner frequency) trigger level indicator despite I've mentioned it several times since it has disappeared a long time ago.

Apart from that I have an open change request for adjusting the auto set trigger level to the center of the waveform (Vmax + Vmin) / 2 - Vmean instead of setting it to zero. This way the AC auto trigger would also work for narrow pulses.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on March 19, 2018, 11:29:41 am


Apart from that I have an open change request for adjusting the auto set trigger level to the center of the waveform (Vmax + Vmin) / 2 - Vmean instead of setting it to zero. This way the AC auto trigger would also work for narrow pulses.

This is good. But also then we need ask: How long time auto trigger is waiting this narrow pulse or what ever before it do autotrig. When it goes to autotrig then there exist this signal, example pulse, at this first time this pulse can be also visible in this capture waht is trigged auto. Then do not come this pulse long time and it generate trig by auto. Then this pulse exisat and again it is where it is  visible or unvisible. Say example we are 1ms/div and there exists some times 100ns pulses, some times pulse periord is 5 second and some times 20ms.  How to arrence auto trig timing (example waiting trig time after previous signal trigged capture)

If user push autoset trig level, how long it wait for solve right level?  Say example just case where randomly/perhaps slowly exist some narrow pulses. I have heard that peoples are ranting if autoset (what ever autoset) take too long time.

Compromises are nice and things what scope adjust himself are also nice but...

Perhaps I'm bit strage but I want that most things are under user control. I have never difficulties with trigger level setting my self. It is extremely rare case - more like accidental - if I push some "auto" set because it never know what I my self really want... User is master and scope is slave and do just what I command. If scope start do things over me it may find himself under table.
But, we do not have scope where is one big settings menu where I can set all or lot of parameters just as I want. (just example autotrig timing is one example)

I want scope what I can set (define), starting from trace colors (free selection for every color on the screen. Set positions for overlay informations as mesurements and marker information, change markers colors, change Sinc parameters, Change measurements parameters (example rise time tresholds) and how it dfetects top and bottom, force capture length overlap amount and force memory length, freehand draw mask test and even small mask free positioning on the screen area.. test mask X or Y scaling both no or yes.  Trigger hysteresis setting.  Just as fully user configurable scope.  And then if user need due to example low experience or other reasons... these normal autoset and set for factory defined compromice/default.

Example very old one (real)Hewlett-Packard digital scope have lot of user settings configurations. (and if adjusted then next user perhaps more than confused ;) ) But when user was familiar with these settings - it was pleasure to use.

Also there was one R&S SA (old and one important parameter, weight around 50kg?)
It was nice to use because I can set (and full free color space, not as select from some factory made stupid "skins") traces, graticule and some other things color harmony with other equipments and best for my eyes and taste.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 19, 2018, 12:43:09 pm
@ rf-loop

I agree that the experts want everything configurable to make it best fit the current application. On the other hand, this will most likely confuse less experienced users and newbies might be unable to cope. Of course we could have some big “Default” button, but the mere existence of such a bunch of options would scare away quite a few. So it’s probably a good idea not going too far on an entry level scope – but we might convince Siglent to implement some of your configuration proposals for a higher level scope, like the SDS5kX.

Regarding the trigger level and its Auto Set feature, I do not see any problem. It just should work the same in DC and AC trigger coupling mode. Auto set does not wait how the signal might develop eventually, it just uses what has recently been captured and is already in the sample buffer. No one can expect the auto trigger level set function to foresee the future, so if there is currently just a straight line then that’s what the trigger level will be set to – just as it is now with DC-coupling.

I also don’t see the problem that we would not be the master of the scene (and scope) anymore. If there is a signal that is not properly (or not at all) triggered just because the trigger level is off, then even when I know what it should be set to it’s still quicker to just push the trigger level button to have it centered on the peak-peak amplitude of the waveform– which might not even be visible initially, because it just exists in the sample buffer but is not displayed because the trigger has never fired.

After that, I have a good basis to further tweak the trigger level if required.

I have never felt the need to closely inspect the Auto trigger mode (not to confuse with Auto set for the trigger level!), as I always had the feeling the timeout (= auto trigger rate) is just about right with regard to the current timebase. But then again, I prefer normal trigger mode in most situations, because then I can be absolutely sure that every waveform I see on the screen comes from a true trigger event, no matter what weird repetition rate it might have. This also means that a singular event stays on the screen forever in normal mode, whereas it would get cleared after a short time in auto mode.

Btw, I’m not telling these truisms because I think you’re not aware of it, but it might include some hints for less experienced users who happen to read this.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on March 19, 2018, 01:21:39 pm
But then again, I prefer normal trigger mode in most situations, because then I can be absolutely sure that every waveform I see on the screen comes from a true trigger event, no matter what weird repetition rate it might have. This also means that a singular event stays on the screen forever in normal mode, whereas it would get cleared after a short time in auto mode.

Same here. But as we both know, this can not set for factory default mode. ;)

But about auto trig timing. When this "Auto" mode is selected I have some times meet situation (yes - even when I use lot of normal mode) when I want that it wait bit longer after last signal trig event before it start generate auto trigs. But never meet situation (With this scope model) where I want more fast autorig after last signal trig.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on March 20, 2018, 05:47:44 pm
After finally spending some time using this scope, I'd like to point out some minor bugs/annoyances I've found. Maybe someone can forward this suggestions to Siglent  :-+

1. In the SPI decoder after disabling the MISO or MOSI signal decoding, the label and the signal trace are still visible near the active one (but obviously without events)
2. It is not possible to move the decoding trace, it's fixed at the bottom of the screen
3. When using the decoders and zooming out too much, the decoded bytes are substituted with red markings because there is not enough space to display the values. Maybe using a vertical layout for the bytes in hex format (like R&S does) will give us another couple of zoom levels with readable decoding
4. In the measure menu there are non options to count impulses/events (I miss my 'Pluses' counter  :-DD )
5. It will be great to have the option to move the cursors data mini window in another place
6. The display is too recessed into the case and having the scope placed on the bench and being tall I've always to bow to read the first row with the sampling data and the trigger frequency. But nothing that a couple of printed rises can't fix

I've to say that overall I'm really impressed by the quality and snappiness of this machine for the price.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 21, 2018, 07:18:11 am
After finally spending some time using this scope, I'd like to point out some minor bugs/annoyances I've found. Maybe someone can forward this suggestions to Siglent  :-+

1. In the SPI decoder after disabling the MISO or MOSI signal decoding, the label and the signal trace are still visible near the active one (but obviously without events)
2. It is not possible to move the decoding trace, it's fixed at the bottom of the screen
3. When using the decoders and zooming out too much, the decoded bytes are substituted with red markings because there is not enough space to display the values. Maybe using a vertical layout for the bytes in hex format (like R&S does) will give us another couple of zoom levels with readable decoding
4. In the measure menu there are non options to count impulses/events (I miss my 'Pluses' counter  :-DD )
5. It will be great to have the option to move the cursors data mini window in another place
6. The display is too recessed into the case and having the scope placed on the bench and being tall I've always to bow to read the first row with the sampling data and the trigger frequency. But nothing that a couple of printed rises can't fix

I've to say that overall I'm really impressed by the quality and snappiness of this machine for the price.
Firmware version please ?

1. Seen this before in another unit.....and only one ! Been reported and not seen in SDS1004X-E models.
2. Only down to the vacant menu bar after selecting 'Menu' ON/OFF. (by Power button)
3. Here's a screenshot of typical decode usage and when activating Zoom and List more data is more easily accessible. (Menu OFF)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=405591)

4. This can be done using Search function by setting the parameters required then the Event #'s are displayed on the bottom right of the display. #'s displayed are related to timebase settings of course.
Example from a previous post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=377830)
Check the spelling !  ;)

5. Of course you can use the H position to move waveform detail away from cursor box or adjust the display transparency.
6. Are you using the front tilting feet ? As the rear feet are rubberized, maybe some additional packing under the front feet to tilt it back a little more.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on March 21, 2018, 09:56:27 am
Thanks for your reply.

Quote
Firmware version please ?
Updated to the latest: 7.6.1.20R1

1. Attached screenshot
2. Thanks for the tip, better than nothing  :)
3. I was thinking about something like this: https://youtu.be/UTsbYqhZiSg?t=13m48s (https://youtu.be/UTsbYqhZiSg?t=13m48s)
4. I know, but is a little bit cumbersome to have it count events in realtime due to a bug/limitation I just discoverd:
    a. push Search, setup search parameters
    b. Push navigate, BUG: cant' select Search Event in the Type menu when in Run mode
    c. Push Run/Stop to stop acquisition
    d. Now you can select Search Event in the Type menu
    e. Push Run/Stop to restart acquisition
    f. Only now events count is shown in the Event Num button in Run mode
5. Agreed
6. Yes, I'm using the front tilting foots but they are not high enough for me :)  But this is really a minor problem, I shouldn't have mentioned it and that can be easily fixed using a couple of laptop rubber rises or by printing them myself (which I'll do as soon as I've time)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on March 21, 2018, 10:39:14 am
Bit more than just Rigol "Pluses"

Of course it also need user learn how to use it because and of course first it may feel "why this and why that"

This is extremely simple example.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on March 21, 2018, 11:33:36 am
Of course it also need user learn how to use it because and of course first it may feel "why this and why that"

Not my fault this time :) and thanks to your screenshot showing the Event Num label which I've never seen I understood the problem:
when the decoding option is on, the Event Num label is hidden behind the decoded traces (see screen1)!
That's why I missed it in the first time and went with that complicate procedure  :-DD
When hiding the menu bottom bar (as suggested by Tautech) the Event Num label is visible again (see screen2)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 21, 2018, 11:53:50 am
Gabri74
Mosi, Miso, is this in Decode1 or 2 mode ?

General decode comments.
Using Zoom in my previously attached screenshot has 60 packets of decoded data (unzoomed) and a wealth of further info in the list.
Selecting Scroll in the Decode menus sets the Multifunction knob to the middle message in the stream where you can access all the info for each packet.

Event Num label and Decode = bug. Thanks.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 21, 2018, 11:55:43 am
After finally spending some time using this scope, I'd like to point out some minor bugs/annoyances I've found. Maybe someone can forward this suggestions to Siglent  :-+

Of course I will point Siglent R&D to your posting. You’ve already got some replies from experienced users and I want to add my comments to that:


Quote
1.   In the SPI decoder after disabling the MISO or MOSI signal decoding, the label and the signal trace are still visible near the active one (but obviously without events)

Yes. For other decoders, like UART, it is not even possible to disable one direction at all. I have mentioned that a long time ago, but nothing has changed and I did not pick that topic up again because I felt this was more a question of personal preference and there were so many much more important things to be sorted.


Quote
2.   It is not possible to move the decoding trace, it's fixed at the bottom of the screen

I see your point, but the UI is generally not based on freely movable windows as in modern mid-range DSOs. So the layout is fixed and nothing can be re-positioned. It would require a major re-design and I’m not sure if Siglent is willing to do that. It means so much more than just adding the functionality. You need a user interface for customizing the user interface, including additional menu items, help texts and error messages, which need to be in a bunch of different languages. And then there’s always the concern that long time users already familiar with the current UI might be confused if something behaves very differently all of a sudden, just because they pushed the wrong button at the wrong time by accident.
Maybe an entry level scope is not the best product to start experimenting with a highly flexible new UI concept…


Quote
3.   When using the decoders and zooming out too much, the decoded bytes are substituted with red markings because there is not enough space to display the values. Maybe using a vertical layout for the bytes in hex format (like R&S does) will give us another couple of zoom levels with readable decoding

Well, this goes hand in hand with some of your other requests. If the decoded values have a vertical orientation, the decoder lines use more vertical space too, which would only be a good idea if we also get the movable UI display elements as discussed before.


Quote
4.   In the measure menu there are non options to count impulses/events (I miss my 'Pluses' counter   )

Yes, even though the Event Search can be pretty powerful, I would most definitely like to have an automatic measurement function at least for counting edges.


Quote
5.   It will be great to have the option to move the cursors data mini window in another place

See #2.


Quote
6.   The display is too recessed into the case and having the scope placed on the bench and being tall I've always to bow to read the first row with the sampling data and the trigger frequency. But nothing that a couple of printed rises can't fix

Yes, I know that problem. It is similar if you place the scope somewhere above your head on a shelf, then you can’t see the bottom of the screen. But that’s manageable one way or the other … ;)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on March 21, 2018, 12:05:50 pm
Gabri74
Mosi, Miso, is this in Decode1 or 2 mode ?

Decode 1. Tested Decode 2 and is the same.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 21, 2018, 12:14:44 pm
Gabri74
Mosi, Miso, is this in Decode1 or 2 mode ?

Decode 1. Tested Decode 2 and is the same.
I think it's this way by design and BTW my first reply was about something different.
We'll look at it some more.......
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on March 21, 2018, 12:20:42 pm
Of course I will point Siglent R&D to your posting. You’ve already got some replies from experienced users and I want to add my comments to that:

Thanks a lot

Quote
I see your point, but the UI is generally not based on freely movable windows as in modern mid-range DSOs. So the layout is fixed and nothing can be re-positioned. It would require a major re-design and I’m not sure if Siglent is willing to do that. It means so much more than just adding the functionality. You need a user interface for customizing the user interface, including additional menu items, help texts and error messages, which need to be in a bunch of different languages. And then there’s always the concern that long time users already familiar with the current UI might be confused if something behaves very differently all of a sudden, just because they pushed the wrong button at the wrong time by accident.
Maybe an entry level scope is not the best product to start experimenting with a highly flexible new UI concept…

I agree on everything but I can't help thinking that having the possibility to move the decoded traces independently (like it's possible with math channels) and place them near the corresponding waveform could improve the readability. But of course this is a matter of personal preference and is really a minor problem. Overall I really like these decoders and I find the options and configurability do be very good (but I never owned an expensive scope... so my experience is limited)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 21, 2018, 12:25:18 pm
Of course I will point Siglent R&D to your posting. You’ve already got some replies from experienced users and I want to add my comments to that:

Thanks a lot

Quote
I see your point, but the UI is generally not based on freely movable windows as in modern mid-range DSOs. So the layout is fixed and nothing can be re-positioned. It would require a major re-design and I’m not sure if Siglent is willing to do that. It means so much more than just adding the functionality. You need a user interface for customizing the user interface, including additional menu items, help texts and error messages, which need to be in a bunch of different languages. And then there’s always the concern that long time users already familiar with the current UI might be confused if something behaves very differently all of a sudden, just because they pushed the wrong button at the wrong time by accident.
Maybe an entry level scope is not the best product to start experimenting with a highly flexible new UI concept…

I agree on everything but I can't help thinking that having the possibility to move the decoded traces independently (like it's possible with math channels) and place them near the corresponding waveform could improve the readability. But of course this is a matter of personal preference and is really a minor problem. Overall I really like these decoders and I find the options and configurability do be very good (but I never owned an expensive scope... so my experience is limited)
Here's a thought;
Have the Decode line name match the channel trace color it's assigned to.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 21, 2018, 02:28:15 pm
Well, even though the screen layout is basically fixed, maybe the option to just reposition the decoder lines vertically might be doable.

Having the label in the color of the associated data channel (even as an additional improvement together with the movable decoder line) sounds good at first, but what if we use the serial decoders together with the digital channels? Well, then they could revert to the default (blue) appearance.

I have notified the responsible persons at Siglent of this discussion and might report back if I get the commitment for any improvements.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on March 21, 2018, 03:22:30 pm
Of course it also need user learn how to use it because and of course first it may feel "why this and why that"

Not my fault this time :) and thanks to your screenshot showing the Event Num label which I've never seen I understood the problem:
when the decoding option is on, the Event Num label is hidden behind the decoded traces (see screen1)!
That's why I missed it in the first time and went with that complicate procedure  :-DD
When hiding the menu bottom bar (as suggested by Tautech) the Event Num label is visible again (see screen2)

oups...

Now I understand, never seen this due to fact I do not have MSO option here for this model.

Perhaps there is this and that details what need some milling, grinding and polishing in UI and how it display some details.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 21, 2018, 04:53:13 pm
oups...

Now I understand, never seen this due to fact I do not have MSO option here for this model.

No, no, no - this has nothing to do with MSO. It is just serial decoding on analog channels ... ;)

... but I haven't seen it either, as I've never used serial decoders together with Event search.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on March 21, 2018, 06:30:06 pm
oups...

Now I understand, never seen this due to fact I do not have MSO option here for this model.

No, no, no - this has nothing to do with MSO. It is just serial decoding on analog channels ... ;)

... but I haven't seen it either, as I've never used serial decoders together with Event search.

Good correction. Thank you.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 22, 2018, 10:15:00 am
I’ve asked about the most obvious/desirable improvements that resulted from our discussion here. After a brief internal evaluation, Siglent confirmed to support enable/disable for one direction on duplex decoders and remove the disabled decoder line from the screen.

Regarding the other requests, just as I’ve suspected, it’s probably not that simple to even partially change the UI concept that’s currently based on fixed display areas, so this will not be changed.

Siglent mentioned the Event Search function as the current workaround for the missing edge/pulse count. We might still get the automatic measurement though – but not in the near future, as there are some other more urgent tasks pending, like ironing out the remaining flaws in the serial decoders, improving the Bode plot feature and fixing some bugs that I've reported. So yes, I’m to blame (too), for keeping R&D folks at Siglent busy all the time – yet that’s for the benefit of all users serious about T&M out there ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 22, 2018, 10:26:45 am
Good result....for now.
As they're polishing the upcoming SDS5kX series there's a opportunity to incorporate some of these ideas into this new platform.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on March 22, 2018, 02:26:47 pm
I’ve asked about the most obvious/desirable improvements that resulted from our discussion here. After a brief internal evaluation, Siglent confirmed to support enable/disable for one direction on duplex decoders and remove the disabled decoder line from the screen.

Regarding the other requests, just as I’ve suspected, it’s probably not that simple to even partially change the UI concept that’s currently based on fixed display areas, so this will not be changed.

Siglent mentioned the Event Search function as the current workaround for the missing edge/pulse count. We might still get the automatic measurement though – but not in the near future, as there are some other more urgent tasks pending, like ironing out the remaining flaws in the serial decoders, improving the Bode plot feature and fixing some bugs that I've reported. So yes, I’m to blame (too), for keeping R&D folks at Siglent busy all the time – yet that’s for the benefit of all users serious about T&M out there ;)

Btw, have you seen what all happen if Event Search find over 700 events (rise events and look white bar (top of display). It looks like it is limited to 700 events beginning from start of acquisition memory. (not big issue itself but, it do not give any limit warning to user. Of course white bar is reduced and user see there is events only in part of acq memory. Least it need give some warning to user that events are not anymore counted from whole memory length - even if it is not very clever to use like this but.

Just set 200us/div. 1MHz pulse freq and example 100ns wide pulses. Set for find pulses under 200ns. (you see events = 700  and these events are just around first 1/4 of acq memory. Of course user fast learn that if it show 700 then check carefully if it is true or not. If 700 is limit with some real reason then need somehow warn user if overflow! If user do not well know how all work - if not educated for use this scope - there is many things what may also feel bug or other way confusing.  One example. If user stop and go to history and zoom in. He can see pulse(s) what match his settings but surprise it have not white even mark. Then he try adjust settings and still no, why it do not regognize this event. Oh.... then he hit this message: Event Num:  700/700.  All event marks are in beginning of memory and not middle where he is zooming. No event marks because all 700 are used beginning of acquisiton memory and rest of matced events are not marked..

But with this small thing, overall it is quite nice feature after first "know your equipment" learning process (I mean this whole Search and Navigate system.)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 22, 2018, 04:23:41 pm
I have to admit that I've only checked the Search function briefly, found it basically working and then somehow forgot about it because I've just been busy with other topics. Only yesterday, the discussion here reminded me that I haven't done a review of the Search function yet ...

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: wohali on April 05, 2018, 10:58:38 pm
Has anyone received a new 1104/1204X-E since Lunar New Year? I still have no shipping update from my reseller, and it's been over a month since the Lantern Festival, which marks the traditional end of New Year festivities in China.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bear207 on April 05, 2018, 11:34:28 pm
Has anyone received a new 1104/1204X-E since Lunar New Year? I still have no shipping update from my reseller, and it's been over a month since the Lantern Festival, which marks the traditional end of New Year festivities in China.
Received my 1104 last Friday

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on April 05, 2018, 11:35:39 pm
I'm told it'll be 2-3 weeks before next batch arrives.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on April 06, 2018, 12:17:45 am
Has anyone received a new 1104/1204X-E since Lunar New Year? I still have no shipping update from my reseller, and it's been over a month since the Lantern Festival, which marks the traditional end of New Year festivities in China.
I got stock just after the Lantern festival but had to wait some weeks for production lead times.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on April 06, 2018, 04:13:02 am
Has anyone received a new 1104/1204X-E since Lunar New Year? I still have no shipping update from my reseller, and it's been over a month since the Lantern Festival, which marks the traditional end of New Year festivities in China.

Last arrived two days ago.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: W9GFO on April 10, 2018, 08:30:36 pm
Has anyone received a new 1104/1204X-E since Lunar New Year? I still have no shipping update from my reseller, and it's been over a month since the Lantern Festival, which marks the traditional end of New Year festivities in China.

I ordered just over two weeks ago from Saelig, at that time they said that it was expected to arrive in one to two weeks. Found out today that they aren't expecting any units in until early May.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on April 11, 2018, 06:45:02 pm
Has anyone received a new 1104/1204X-E since Lunar New Year? I still have no shipping update from my reseller, and it's been over a month since the Lantern Festival, which marks the traditional end of New Year festivities in China.
I received from Saelig some days ago. Ordered on February 27.

Does this oscilloscope have any interesting hacks?

Is the root password known? I can connect using telnet, but don't know the root password.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: djadeski on April 11, 2018, 10:30:57 pm
I just received the 1204x-e I ordered from Transcat on March 5th. 

Initially I was told 9 week lead time which would have been late April or early May.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on April 13, 2018, 10:57:12 am
I've moved my reply here in order to not disturb that other thread. Here are the postings I'm referring to:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/using-a-ucurrent-with-siglent-sds1204x-e-or-sds1000x-e-series-(feature-request)/msg1474694/#msg1474694 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/using-a-ucurrent-with-siglent-sds1204x-e-or-sds1000x-e-series-(feature-request)/msg1474694/#msg1474694)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/using-a-ucurrent-with-siglent-sds1204x-e-or-sds1000x-e-series-(feature-request)/msg1475772/#msg1475772 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/using-a-ucurrent-with-siglent-sds1204x-e-or-sds1000x-e-series-(feature-request)/msg1475772/#msg1475772)

I hope Siglent will not just truncate the displayed data (that would be the simplest, 1 second fix to display only one line text ) but instead they will  choose to properly display relatively long decoded packets.

The solution for this is not as straight forward as it might appear. All other decoders display just one data word per line in the list view, hence the message length is only limited by the maximum number of list entries specific for each decoder. The list scroll mechanism is based on the message rather than line number and there is a fixed one by one relationship between message and line. The list window can be configured to have 1-7 lines and chances are that a long multiline message does not fit the displayed list area. Of course all this could be solved, but would require some substantial redesign – just for IIC, as no other current decoder requires that.

The statements above are my personal speculation, but I think I cannot be far off. This is also backed by the fact that Siglent takes a slightly different route:

It has been confirmed that we’ll get a proper solution providing a separate text box (for the currently selected message in the list view I assume). This box will indeed be multi-line and show the complete message.


As a side note : it would be really cool if they could fix the horizontal scrolling of the decoded data as well (sorry if I am asking too much for a 1000 Canadian dollars oscilloscope).

Rest assured that the price shall not be an excuse for any serious flaws.

I take it you're referring to the decoding line at the bottom of the trace view.

As a basis for the discussion, just let’s recall the working principle, even when it’s obvious: since this scope always displays the complete record with all its sample data, you choose the actual record length by selecting an appropriate timebase. In your example you have set 5ms/div, which means a record length of 5ms x 14 = 70ms total (using 1.4Mpts @ 20MSa/s).

Normally, the decoding line would appear compressed and not readable with these settings. In your case, it is perfectly readable and shows the first message truncated by the start of the 2nd one, which in turn contains nonsense. I have never seen a behavior like this before (with short messages) so it certainly has to do with some data buffer overflow and management data being overwritten because of the current bug.

I happen to have a screenshot with the same timebase, but only short messages:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=411818;image)
SDS1104X-E_Serial_I2C_Setup

Bottom line decoding is compressed and not readable.

Normally, you’d zoom in until the decoding line becomes readable – either by using the Zoom function during Run or setting a faster timebase in Stop mode after the acquisition is completed. Then you should be able to scroll horizontally by changing the X-position, thus shifting the zoom window and being able to view all parts of the entire message. Here’s an example, showing the last two messages of a long capture with a total of 652 packets:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=411820;image)
SDS1104X-E_Serial_I2C_Stop100us_last

So it works as expected with short messages (up to 17 data bytes).

For long messages, the initial decoding line looks weird already and the procedure described above certainly won’t work right now because of the bug that essentially destroys the decoding. So this should certainly be fixed with the coming release as well.

Just let’s wait and see. If something still isn’t fixed or the fix is not satisfactory, we can always discuss it here in the forum as the basis for a solution in a future update.

BTW, the reason why you see an extra 80h byte without acknowledgement at the end of all my messages is because the current IIC decoder expects a high idle level on the SCL line. Even though this is a valid assumption for a properly designed IIC bus system, the decoder should still be robust enough to handle the slightly different situation in my test scenario and this is just another example for an improvement that we’re most likely going to see in the coming firmware release.

In fact I have asked for a status regarding the serial decoders in general and it has been confirmed that the majority of my change requests has been finished by now and will make it into the coming release as well.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on April 14, 2018, 07:41:26 am
I have a question about 500?V range.

1. When the coupling is set to GND, there is some negative DC offset on most channels.

2. When the coupling is AC or DC, there is also an offset, but it usually changes to positive.

Why does it happen and is there any way to correct it?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on April 14, 2018, 04:52:04 pm
I have a question about 500?V range.

1. When the coupling is set to GND, there is some negative DC offset on most channels.

2. When the coupling is AC or DC, there is also an offset, but it usually changes to positive.

Why does it happen and is there any way to correct it?

This is normal and not bad at all. No way - and even more importantly, no need to fix anything here. I guess you’d have a hard time finding another DSO performing better than this, even if you're willing to spend a lot more money. Finding a scope that provides true full resolution, full bandwidth 500uV/div sensitivity (not the fake software zoom) alone would be quite a challenge already.

The specification in the datasheet is:

±(1%* Offset+1.5%*8*div+500 uV): <=1 mv/div

For zero offset and 500uV/div vertical gain, as for channel 1 in your example, the first term is zero and we can calculate the rest:

±(1.5% * 8 * 500uV + 500uV) = ±(1.5% * 4mV + 500uV) = ±(60uV + 500uV) = ±560uV;

So the specified offset error is ±560uV and your unit is well within specification. If it were not, a self-calibration would usually cure it.

Only few high precision OpAmps have an offset error significantly lower than that, whereas the majority of general purpose OpAmps can be considerably worse. In actual fact we’re not talking about a precision OpAmp here, but a wideband input buffer with >200MHz bandwidth.

The reason why there is a difference between DC, AC and GND input coupling is the fact that this is quite different to a traditional analog entry level scope. I’m not going to go into detail for AC/DC coupling, suffice it to say it is not just a capacitor right at the scope input. And ground coupling is done much further down the signal path and this is also why almost all the noise vanishes with ground coupling, which would not be the case on an analog scope. Switching from input to ground at that later stage causes a different offset error than what the input buffer is calibrated for, hence the different trace position.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: 4x1md on May 05, 2018, 06:09:55 pm

Quote
If it is to drive a non-Siglent AWG, maybe they can charge for it.
Maybe ?  :-//
It's very unlikely command protocols will work with other brands.

When doing Bode plots the AWG is swept through many frequencies/second so commands must be correct.
Plotting bode plot with a non-Siglent AWG is possible with a protocol translation software.

At certain point after getting the SDG1204X-E oscilloscope I wanted to know if it might be possible to use the bode plot function with a non-Siglent waveform generator.

After some researching and fuzzing I wrote a program in Python which acts as a small server. The oscilloscope connects to it using LAN and the program makes it think that it communicates with a genuine Siglent AWG. The program extracts the commands sent by the scope to the generator, parses them and translates to the command set, that the connected to the PC non-Siglent AWG is able to understand.

The video shows bode plot of an LPF with R=1kOhm and C=0.22μF. On the left you may see my program running on a netbook. For the first try I took the well known JDS6600 generator which is sold on eBay/AliExpress. Later I'll add drivers for two more AWG models.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PvueUHAJ78 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PvueUHAJ78)

I hope to have during the next weeks enough free time to publish the program on GitHub with detailed description on how it works.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on May 05, 2018, 06:13:26 pm
I was waiting for that!! Looking forward to try It with my rigol awg
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on May 05, 2018, 06:46:29 pm

Plotting bode plot with a non-Siglent AWG is possible with a protocol translation software.

At certain point after getting the SDG1204X-E oscilloscope I wanted to know if it might be possible to use the bode plot function with a non-Siglent waveform generator.

After some researching and fuzzing I wrote a program in Python which acts as a small server. When the oscilloscope connects to it using LAN. It thinks that it communicates with a genuine Siglent AWG. The program extracts the commands sent to the generator, parses them and translates to the command set, that the connected to the PC non-Siglent AWG is able to understand.

The video shows bode plot of an LPF with R=1kOhm and C=0.22μF. On the left you may see my program running on a netbook. For the first try I took the well known JDS6600 generator which is sold on eBay/AliExpress. Later I'll add drivers for two more AWG models.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PvueUHAJ78 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PvueUHAJ78)

I hope to have during the next weeks enough free time to publish the program on GitHub with detailed description on how it works.
Cool and that's actually fairly close to what I was planning to do. I don't quite understand the fascination with the built in or provided signal generators. It shouldn't be too hard to write a small script that does the same, as long as you have a SCPI scope and signal generator or AWG. You don't even have to depend on the accuracy of the generator, you can just measure the signal before it goes in and after it comes out. Plot to chart and done. If you have a sweep function on the generator it might be even easier.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 05, 2018, 07:37:14 pm
Plotting bode plot with a non-Siglent AWG is possible with a protocol translation software.

At certain point after getting the SDG1204X-E oscilloscope I wanted to know if it might be possible to use the bode plot function with a non-Siglent waveform generator.

After some researching and fuzzing I wrote a program in Python which acts as a small server. When the oscilloscope connects to it using LAN. It thinks that it communicates with a genuine Siglent AWG. The program extracts the commands sent to the generator, parses them and translates to the command set, that the connected to the PC non-Siglent AWG is able to understand.

The video shows bode plot of an LPF with R=1kOhm and C=0.22μF. On the left you may see my program running on a netbook. For the first try I took the well known JDS6600 generator which is sold on eBay/AliExpress. Later I'll add drivers for two more AWG models.

Well done!  :-+

AWG control for the bode plotter is a standard feature free of charge and of course it should always be possible to make any signal generator compatible by means of a command translator, as long as it can provide the required frequency resolution.
Wouldn't have guessed someone would go to the effort that soon ;)

After watching your video, there's one little hint about cursor measurements: in many cases (and certainly for the bode plot) it might be beneficial to use auto tracking cursors instead of manual ones.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on May 05, 2018, 10:21:08 pm

Quote
If it is to drive a non-Siglent AWG, maybe they can charge for it.
Maybe ?  :-//
It's very unlikely command protocols will work with other brands.

When doing Bode plots the AWG is swept through many frequencies/second so commands must be correct.
Plotting bode plot with a non-Siglent AWG is possible with a protocol translation software.

At certain point after getting the SDG1204X-E oscilloscope I wanted to know if it might be possible to use the bode plot function with a non-Siglent waveform generator.

After some researching and fuzzing I wrote a program in Python which acts as a small server. The oscilloscope connects to it using LAN and the program makes it think that it communicates with a genuine Siglent AWG. The program extracts the commands sent by the scope to the generator, parses them and translates to the command set, that the connected to the PC non-Siglent AWG is able to understand.

The video shows bode plot of an LPF with R=1kOhm and C=0.22μF. On the left you may see my program running on a netbook. For the first try I took the well known JDS6600 generator which is sold on eBay/AliExpress. Later I'll add drivers for two more AWG models.
That surly will be of interest to the community.
Quote
I hope to have during the next weeks enough free time to publish the program on GitHub with detailed description on how it works.
Great work and looking forward to your further efforts.  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 05, 2018, 10:26:43 pm
Some more vids on the SDS1kX-E models, just recently found:
Done by Jason from Siglent America.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AC6glStPwY&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AC6glStPwY&feature=youtu.be)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgAluROOPqQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgAluROOPqQ)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_eL3bdqz_w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_eL3bdqz_w)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on May 07, 2018, 03:59:58 pm
@3:30

"oops fat fingers" moment is actually finicky, unpredictable universal knob and bad GUI :)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 07, 2018, 09:38:19 pm
@3:30

"oops fat fingers" moment is actually finicky, unpredictable universal knob and bad GUI :)
Please do your homework as this vid by Jason was put online Jan 4th before any post release firmware became available. Many things were changed with rev 20R1.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on May 08, 2018, 12:41:19 am
Hi

I have SDS1104X-E with the latest firmware.  Scope has good hardware with many features but it could be much better and less frustrating with better software.

There are two issues demonstrated @3:30

1. you can press function key to toggle through menu options but highlighted option does not take effect until x amount of time (sometimes never, IIRC) or you have to depress universal knob to select it. 

This is a bad GUI design as hand has to travel from function key area to universal knob to make a selection and back to function keys to access other function/option/page and back to universal knob and so on...  It would have been much better if there was a way to select by either depressing function key for longer than, for example, 2 seconds, or make the round button next to function keys as enter key.

2. universal knob is too sensitive/imprecise for menu selection, also depressing it can move to the next option, the primary reason for 'fat finger error'

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on May 08, 2018, 01:05:17 am
Some more vids on the SDS1kX-E models, just recently found:
Done by Jason from Siglent America.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgAluROOPqQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgAluROOPqQ)

Just looking at how many hoops you have to jump through to put a measurement on screen (time=4:25 in the video).  :palm:

Rigols just have a row of buttons down the left side. Press button, done.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on May 08, 2018, 02:14:31 am
On that video you can also see that persistence does not automatically clear when adjusting vertical, or horizontal.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on May 08, 2018, 02:47:42 am
Hello,

I have SDS1104X-E with the latest firmware.  Scope has good hardware with many features but it could be much better and less frustrating with better software.
There are two issues demonstrated @3:30
1. you can press function key to toggle through menu options but highlighted option does not take effect until x amount of time (sometimes never, IIRC) or you have to depress universal knob to select it. 

I own 1204X-E (running the latest firmware as well) and have been using it quite a bit. I think  "X amount of time" is about 2-3 seconds and I actually like the fact that there is the aforementioned delay since it let me choose the necessary menu item  either slowly scrolling through the menu or using multiple presses. It's interesting that you mentioned "sometimes never" - I cannot remember if I ever saw/noticed something like that.

And yes, the universal know is touchy, but again after using the oscilloscope for some time I got used to it and can easily press the knob without disturbing it.

All in all I like this device but otherwise I would either return it or sell to get a suitable replacement (I had 1202X-E and exchanged it for 1204X-E). And when you find a decent scope with the same  functionality and in the same price range, with a well designed GUI etc - it would be nice to know its name (just for the record).

Edited 1 minute later: oh, I forgot one thing which sooner or later I will have to take care of - very loud fan. My plan in to use some sort of  "DC 12V Four Wire Thermostat PWM Fan Speed Controller Module"

(https://alexnld.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/SKU274152-2.jpg)

and a quiet fan to replace the stock one(constant speed, loud one).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on May 08, 2018, 11:59:13 am
IMO, if Siglent really thinks that their software is finished then Rigol will be back on top as soon as they refresh 1000 series hardware.

As to the noise, two books, on both sides of the scope cut down on fan noise considerably.  For the long run I am planning on 3d printing a manifold in order to improve cooling efficacy and use quieter, slower fan.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 08, 2018, 12:26:08 pm
Some more vids on the SDS1kX-E models, just recently found:
Done by Jason from Siglent America.



Just looking at how many hoops you have to jump through to put a measurement on screen (time=4:25 in the video).  :palm:

Rigols just have a row on buttons down the left side. Press button, done.
What are you on about ?
You can't have 38 buttons for each of the measurements on each channel, instead you need use a menu to select the ones you want and then you can toggle them all (selected) ON and OFF with a single button.

You really need do more homework.


Edited 1 minute later: oh, I forgot one thing which sooner or later I will have to take care of - very loud fan. My plan in to use some sort of  "DC 12V Four Wire Thermostat PWM Fan Speed Controller Module"

(https://alexnld.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/SKU274152-2.jpg)

and a quiet fan to replace the stock one(constant speed, loud one).

Of the few shipments of these I've had there are differences in fan noise.
The beta unit I've got is the loudest though not by lots and if I where you rather than control the fan I'd look up the specs of the installed one and attempt to find one quieter. It might be an idea first to try rubber mounting it to eliminate any resonance.

Do let us know how you get on.  :)

IMO, if Siglent really thinks that their software is finished then Rigol will be back on top as soon as they refresh 1000 series hardware.

Bob, you haven't been keeping up to date mate !
There's new FW due out anytime and Performa01 has worked hard with Siglent engineers to get the improvements we've all asked for.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on May 08, 2018, 01:13:41 pm
What are you on about ?
You can't have 38 buttons for each of the measurements on each channel, instead you need use a menu to select the ones you want and then you can toggle them all (selected) ON and OFF with a single button.

You really need do more homework.

You know you're not fooling anybody, right?

On a Rigol you have to press a button to switch between horizontal/vertical measurements, sure, and maybe another button to get less common measurements, but it's way faster/easier then going into a menu, twisting the twisty knob through a list of words then crossing your fingers it doesn't select a different value when you push it.

Plus you get little pictures of the measurements, not just names.

This:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=427762;image)

vs. this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=427768;image)

??

No contest. Rigol wins hands down.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TWMIV on May 08, 2018, 03:00:44 pm
Does anyone have a change log for 7.6.1.20 R2? I just got this scope about a week ago and it seems to already have a never version than what is available on Siglent's website.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 08, 2018, 10:55:20 pm
Does anyone have a change log for 7.6.1.20 R2? I just got this scope about a week ago and it seems to already have a never version than what is available on Siglent's website.
Yes this occasionally happens with new stock and then we know a new firmware version is imminent.
However sometimes that version is again superseded with new versions publicly released.
We should know what's been addressed in a few days.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 09, 2018, 01:05:39 am
What are you on about ?
You can't have 38 buttons for each of the measurements on each channel, instead you need use a menu to select the ones you want and then you can toggle them all (selected) ON and OFF with a single button.

You really need do more homework.

You know you're not fooling anybody, right?

On a Rigol you have to press a button to switch between horizontal/vertical measurements, sure, and maybe another button to get less common measurements, but it's way faster/easier then going into a menu, twisting the twisty knob through a list of words then crossing your fingers it doesn't select a different value when you push it.

Plus you get little pictures of the measurements, not just names.

This:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=427762;image)

vs. this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=427768;image)

??

No contest. Rigol wins hands down.
Oh so you want to look deeper into the UI of these DSO's.
Shall we examine User definable Default and how that might assist with Measurement setup/usage.

With X-E's the Default button can be assigned to either factory or user default setting.
With User settings one can have any UI parameter set to just how you want or like it, yes any parameter including any of the measurement types.
Described here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds1000x-e-oscilloscope-based-on-xilinx-zynq-7000-soc-architecture/msg1196101/#msg1196101 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds1000x-e-oscilloscope-based-on-xilinx-zynq-7000-soc-architecture/msg1196101/#msg1196101)
When set how you want them those measurements set can be toggled ON and OFF with a single press of Measurements.
Further, the display can be cleansed of unwanted menu clutter by use of the Menu toggle button where the measurements are then parked into the now vacant screen real-estate where the menus were.
These UI helpers/features allow the DSO to be set as we want it, not just as the manufacturer thinks is best.
Then we can also display some statistics too, as so:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=428146)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=428152)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rigol52 on May 09, 2018, 07:19:27 am

??

No contest. Rigol wins hands down.


Not for me, till Rigol is equipped with FRA (Bode plot) functionality.

BTW: I am currently Rigol owner, and wish to stay, but no without usable Bode plot feature.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on May 09, 2018, 01:23:41 pm
Both seem like compelling arguments.  It would be nice if someone did side-by-side comparison.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on May 09, 2018, 01:26:46 pm
No contest. Rigol wins hands down.
Not for me, till Rigol is equipped with FRA (Bode plot) functionality.

I thought we were talking about the UI for showing measurements on screen.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on May 09, 2018, 01:35:33 pm
Oh so you want to look deeper into the UI of these DSO's.
Shall we examine User definable Default and how that might assist ...

All I'm really interested in is how long it takes you to show (eg.) Vpp on screen when it isn't currently being displayed.

I don't think something so basic should need to be 'examined'. That smells of apologetics.

Here's how to do it on a Rigol DS1054Z:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=428485;image)

Simple question: What's the shortest possible equivalent on a Siglent?


And yes, the universal know is touchy, but again after using the oscilloscope for some time I got used to it and can easily press the knob without disturbing it.

Preferably a method where success doesn't depend on your video gaming skill level.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TWMIV on May 09, 2018, 05:06:47 pm
I have never used a Rigol scope, but I have used the DSOX: 1k, 2k, and 3k's from Keysight and their measurement selection system is similar to that of the Siglent.

The measurements are selected using a dial just like on the Siglent, however the Siglent allows you to select multiple measurements to display at the same time, while the Keysight has you selecting a single measurement at a time for each measurement "slot".

Really the only thing that is annoying with how Siglent is handling the measurement selection is the amount of time that it takes to move through the entire list of them.

In the end it is just a different way of handling it. Rigol is trading screen space for faster measurement selection.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on May 09, 2018, 06:01:33 pm
Siglent's measurement selection 'window' is also obstructing display while selecting options. 

Overall Rigol seems to be better at this since you want to make a quick selection and get back to working with a waveform, on the other hand I cannot think of a slower selection method Siglent could use then the current sequential access    :)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: radiolistener on May 09, 2018, 08:38:16 pm
Overall Rigol seems to be better

But Rigol is more expensive.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 09, 2018, 08:57:33 pm
Siglent's measurement selection 'window' is also obstructing display while selecting options. 
There's a Transparency setting in the Display menu, have you not found or used it yet ?

Quote
Overall Rigol seems to be better at this since you want to make a quick selection and get back to working with a waveform, on the other hand I cannot think of a slower selection method Siglent could use then the current sequential access    :)
One usually has a preferred set of measurements you use and once selected they all remain as your preferred measurement types and all are returned to the display with a single press of the Measurement button.
Not some small list of buttons that some manufacturer thinks are the types you should use but your own custom list !



Oh so you want to look deeper into the UI of these DSO's.
Shall we examine User definable Default and how that might assist ...

All I'm really interested in is how long it takes you to show (eg.) Vpp on screen when it isn't currently being displayed.

I don't think something so basic should need to be 'examined'. That smells of apologetics.
Actually it does demand investigation !

Particularly WRT measurement accuracies:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/testing-dso-auto-measurements-accuracy-across-timebases/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/testing-dso-auto-measurements-accuracy-across-timebases/)

I wonder if anything has improved ?
Or will you continue the same MO in further efforts to have members react so they might also be banned ?
Disgraceful behavior and now moderators are aware of it they're unlikely to be duped again by your actions.

Quote
Here's how to do it on a Rigol DS1054Z:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=428485;image)

Simple question: What's the shortest possible equivalent on a Siglent ?

Out of the box: one press of the Measurement button.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on May 10, 2018, 12:59:52 pm
Siglent's measurement selection 'window' is also obstructing display while selecting options. 
There's a Transparency setting in the Display menu, have you not found or used it yet ?

That particular window is fully opaque and does not follow transparency settings.

Speaking of transparency, there's a bug where, when menu is turned off, measurements window becomes opaque and obstructs part of the waveform.   You can see it in your screenshot, but it's more obvious when more items are selected making window taller.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=428152;image)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on May 10, 2018, 03:15:40 pm
One usually has a preferred set of measurements you use and once selected they all remain as your preferred measurement types and all are returned to the display with a single press of the Measurement button.

So you keep saying but I don't think I've ever worked that way. I hardly ever need the exact same set of measurements twice. :-//

(...and if I feel the need I can simply save the current state as a named setup in the internal memory - you know Rigols can do that, right?)

Actually it does demand investigation !

Particularly WRT (...something completely unrelated, snipped)

Changing the subject? Apologetics in action.

Or will you continue the same MO in further efforts to have members react so they might also be banned ?
Disgraceful behavior and now moderators are aware of it they're unlikely to be duped again by your actions.

Huh?

I made a simple observation based on that video. There's no need for any personal attacks, the only person trying to provoke anything is you.

Rigol is trading screen space for faster measurement selection.

Was that a good decision? In a poll my answer would be "yes".

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on May 10, 2018, 03:24:29 pm
Overall Rigol seems to be better

But Rigol is more expensive.

??

A DS1000Z is one of the cheapest oscilloscopes available, most people pay around $350 for theirs.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on May 10, 2018, 03:24:40 pm
How many measurement stats can Rigol display on the screen at the same time? 

Although I did not run into this issue yet as I usually use only two channels, max of 5 measured items on Siglent seems to few for a 4 ch scope...at least 8 would make more sense (2 stats per ch)

EDIT: looks like Rigol displays 5 items also, but Siglent gives more information such as Std-Dev and Count

(https://assets.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/DimLarge/1371697135.jpg)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on May 10, 2018, 03:51:51 pm
EDIT: looks like Rigol displays 5 items also, but Siglent gives more information such as Std-Dev and Count

Yep, it's five.

nb. You can take a quick peek at all the other measurements using the button on the right.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=429179;image)

It toggles an overlay, eg.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=429191;image)

...and Count
What happens if you press the button labelled "Counter"?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on May 10, 2018, 05:40:40 pm
EDIT: looks like Rigol displays 5 items also, but Siglent gives more information such as Std-Dev and Count

It toggles an overlay, eg.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=429191;image)


Interesting.  Siglent can display all measurements also, however, only for one channel at a time.  Your example is showing Ch1 and Ch2 at the same time, but waveform is covered up - can transparency be adjusted?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/?action=dlattach;attach=217508)


...so, what happens when you press the Counter button?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on May 11, 2018, 09:27:18 am
waveform is covered up - can transparency be adjusted?

I don't think so.

...so, what happens when you press the Counter button?

It shows the frequency counter.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: radiolistener on May 11, 2018, 10:23:47 am
Does someone tested input impedance of SDS1104X-E with vector signal analyzer?

I have old SDS1102X, and it's input impedance for frequency range 5-85 MHz is the following:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=429932;image)

If you want I can take results for other frequency range.
I'm very interested to compare results with other oscilloscope models.

As I understand the probe compensation issue is related to the input impedance mismatch.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: zabox909 on May 17, 2018, 06:17:57 pm
Hi,

I recently bought a SDS1104X-E and I really like it so far. Coming from an ancient Philips PM3234 the possibilities of a modern and affordable dso are amazing!
And I don't understand the issues some people have with the UI. I found it rather quick and intuitive to use and I like the clean layout.

The only major bug I've noticed is in the search function. Once the aquisition is stopped, the scope often can't find search events in other channels than the selected one during aquisition. It seems to be somehow related to the channel offset, I have included some screenshots. That really slows down my work, because I often need to single capture multiple channels and search for specific events in them.
Is anyone able to reproduce the bug? (FW: 7.6.1.20 R1)

ps: shout-out to Performa01 for the amazing review and the work he puts into improving the firmware!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 18, 2018, 02:01:48 pm
The only major bug I've noticed is in the search function.
...
Is anyone able to reproduce the bug? (FW: 7.6.1.20 R1)

I’ve already admitted that I did not do a thorough check on the Search function yet and right now I have very little time. Yet I’ve tried to reproduce that odd behavior and there is a bug indeed.

The test was done with two signals:
CH2: sine 5MHz 1.5Vpp
CH4: square 10MHz 1.5Vpp

First Search for rising slope at threshold 0V on channel 4 works as expected:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=435716;image)
01 SDS1104X-E Search CH4 Th0V-1


Then the same Search fails on channel 2:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=435722;image)
02 SDS1104X-E Search CH2 Th0V


Only after adjusting the threshold way negative, it starts working. The correct result is obtained when the channel 2 threshold level is at its negative maximum:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=435728;image)
03 SDS1104X-E Search CH2 Th-nmax


Switching back to channel 1 still works as before:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=435734;image)
04 SDS1104X-E Search CH4 Th0V-2


I’ll notify Siglent R&D of this issue.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 20, 2018, 09:44:03 am
Stemming from comments and questions about BW roll off I thought I'd offer some screenshots as examples.
Signal: HP 500 MHz sig gen and BNC connection.

SDS1104X-E just where waveform amplitude begins to reduce but still above -3dB BW

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=437200)


SDS1104X-E where the frequency counter starts to become unstable and waveform amplitude dramatically reduced.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=437206)


SDS1202X-E, as for SDS1104X-E above, frequency counter starts to become unstable and waveform amplitude dramatically reduced. One might presume SDS1204X-E will produce identical results.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=437212)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on May 20, 2018, 02:30:16 pm
@tautech, could you run the same test but with PP215 probe and SDS1104X-E?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: radiolistener on May 20, 2018, 02:45:17 pm
@tautech, can you please perform the same test for SDS1102X?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 20, 2018, 05:59:27 pm
@tautech, could you run the same test but with PP215 probe and SDS1104X-E?
Some probe data here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1439052/#msg1439052 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1439052/#msg1439052)
Frequency vs amplitude graph in posted link.

@tautech, can you please perform the same test for SDS1102X?
Sorry I don't have the 2ch SDS1102X+ older model any more, recently sold including 16ch MSO option.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 22, 2018, 11:17:30 am
New firmware for SDS1004X-E models
2 upgrades are offered, one for the OS and another for the firmware.

OS upgrade
17.6 Mb
https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/6158/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/6158/)

Firmware
7.6.1.25R1
7.5 Mb
https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/6154/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/6154/)

Changes and enhancements listed here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1555936/#msg1555936 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1555936/#msg1555936)

Also available is new firmware for the optional 16ch SLA1016 MSO module
7.8.1.9
https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/6161/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/6161/)

As always after updating perform Self Cal after a warm up period of ~30 minutes and take careful note of the firmware install instructions.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 22, 2018, 11:29:53 am
The above link is for the 7.6.1.20R1 firmware. The new firmware is missing on the Siglent America webpage.

Use this link for now:

https://www.siglenteu.com/download/5931/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/download/5931/)

EDIT: all update files are available on Siglent America webpage now too.  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Giuss on May 22, 2018, 05:43:11 pm
Hi, I have a SDS-1104X-E and I'm very happy with it.

My software version is the original 7.6.1.12R1, do you advice to update even if I don't have significant problems with it?

What is the correct procedure? I have to update the OS and the firmware togheter?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 22, 2018, 09:13:10 pm
Hi, I have a SDS-1104X-E and I'm very happy with it.

My software version is the original 7.6.1.12R1, do you advice to update even if I don't have significant problems with it?

What is the correct procedure? I have to update the OS and the firmware togheter?



Even if you have not noticed any significant problems yet, there are still lots of issues that have been addressed since the original V7.6.1.12 firmware. Traditionally, there are always significantly more fixes and improvements than what is listed in the version history. So my advice can only be to keep the firmware of your DSO up to date, even if you don't see an immediate need for that.

As for the correct procedure, it's basically straight forward. The OS update is independent from the firmware, so you can update both components in any order you like. I have updated the OS first, which happens so quick by the way that I wasn't even sure if it actually worked. Then the update of the firmware, where the additional version number field "7.1.6.1.25R1" finally confirmed that everything woked as expected.

Both updates are fairly easy to do:

OS update: just copy the 4 files (everything in the package short of the two version history files) to an empty 8GB or 32GB*) USB stick. Turn off the DSO, insert the USB stick, turn the scope on. After the startup is completed (which hardly takes any longer than usual), the update is already done.

Then copy the firmware update file *.ADS to the USB stick, plug it back in the DSO, choose UTILITY/UPDATE/Firmware, navigate to the *.ADS file using the universal control, then press the "Press To Update" softkey. Then restart the scope (using the power button) when prompted to do so and check the UTILITY/System Status to confirm the firmware version number is 7.1.6.1.25R1 as expected. Finally perform a self-calibration after the DSO has been up and running for at least 30 minutes (in total) and you're done.

*) This is what Siglent states in the update instructions. But actually any USB stick should work just fine, as long as it is FAT16 or FAT32 formatted.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on May 22, 2018, 09:18:38 pm
Parsings of the new ADS files:

Code: [Select]
SDS1004X_E_6.1.25R1.ADS

File Header Size: 00000070
00000000 - File Checksum: C60EB4BF [00000004-00757F76] (with only the File Header decrypted)  CKSM OK
00000004 - File Size: 00757F07 (without 0x70 bytes of the File Header)
0000000C - HW Version: 13501
00000026 - Vendor/Brand: SIGLENT
0000003A - USB Host Controller: ISP1763
****************************************************
Decrypting the 0x2800 and 0x1400 blocks...
Reversing file...
XORing with 0xFF (incrementing pattern)...
XORing with 0xFF from 0x003ABF84 until 0x00757F06
****************************************************
00000000 --- Section Checksum: C379054A
00000004 --- Section Size: 00757ED3 [00000034-00757F06]  CKSM OK
00000008 --- Section # 00000007
00000034 --- 00757F06  ***** ZIP file *****
Offset    Ver  Flag  Comp  Size      Packed    Modified             CRC32                          Name         Extra Details
00000034  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [00000056-00000055]  www/
00000056  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [00000082-00000081]  www/attchment/
00000082  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [000000A8-000000A7]  www/css/
000000A8  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [000000D5-000000D4]  www/css/device/
000000D5  2.0  0000  0008  00001A0A  0000065D  20-03-2018 13:58:04  DA06DD28  [00000114-00000770]  www/css/device/device_control.css
00000771  2.0  0000  0008  00000E6F  00000492  20-03-2018 13:58:04  731108C6  [000007A6-00000C37]  www/css/device/main.css
00000C38  2.0  0000  0008  000007DD  0000029B  20-03-2018 13:58:04  C8FCE2D7  [00000C67-00000F01]  www/css/login.css
00000F02  2.0  0000  0008  000011D5  00000577  20-03-2018 13:58:04  26D75603  [00000F33-000014A9]  www/css/welcome.css
000014AA  2.0  0000  0008  000007C4  00000239  20-03-2018 13:58:04  D3E45378  [000014DC-00001714]  www/deviceupdate.php
00001715  2.0  0000  0008  000005F2  0000017D  20-03-2018 13:58:05  7BB9B512  [0000174C-000018C8]  www/device_read_write.php
000018C9  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [000018F1-000018F0]  www/fonts/
000018F1  2.0  0000  0008  00011497  0001146B  20-03-2018 13:58:04  A3758D75  [00001930-00012D9A]  www/fonts/fontawesome-webfont.eot
00012D9B  2.0  0000  0008  00059430  0001A95E  20-03-2018 13:58:04  CFF95578  [00012DDA-0002D737]  www/fonts/fontawesome-webfont.svg
0002D738  2.0  0000  0008  00022AF8  0001453A  20-03-2018 13:58:04  AC39751F  [0002D777-00041CB0]  www/fonts/fontawesome-webfont.ttf
00041CB1  2.0  0000  0008  00014684  0001464C  20-03-2018 13:58:04  C17DCBF4  [00041CF1-0005633C]  www/fonts/fontawesome-webfont.woff
0005633D  2.0  0000  0008  00010440  00010431  20-03-2018 13:58:04  B5F6695A  [0005637E-000667AE]  www/fonts/fontawesome-webfont.woff2
000667AF  2.0  0000  0008  0001AC78  00015EFD  20-03-2018 13:58:04  98F5FCC9  [000667E6-0007C6E2]  www/fonts/FontAwesome.otf
0007C6E3  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [0007C709-0007C708]  www/img/
0007C709  2.0  0000  0008  00004723  0000112A  20-03-2018 13:58:07  0A7D1CDE  [0007C738-0007D861]  www/img/about.png
0007D862  2.0  0000  0008  00006682  00002200  20-03-2018 13:58:06  A3952F7A  [0007D891-0007FA90]  www/img/Home1.png
0007FA91  2.0  0000  0008  000056E1  00001973  20-03-2018 13:58:07  3F022755  [0007FAC0-00081432]  www/img/Home2.png
00081433  2.0  0000  0008  000001A9  000001AE  20-03-2018 13:58:06  2B0955C8  [00081465-00081612]  www/img/ic_login.png
00081613  2.0  0000  0008  0000015B  00000160  20-03-2018 13:58:06  26CF6E8F  [00081648-000817A7]  www/img/ic_password.png
000817A8  2.0  0000  0008  0000011E  00000121  20-03-2018 13:58:07  2D89CBF8  [000817D9-000818F9]  www/img/ic_user.png
000818FA  2.0  0000  0008  00006E08  00002A4F  20-03-2018 13:58:06  6A01E632  [0008192E-0008437C]  www/img/Intrument1.png
0008437D  2.0  0000  0008  00006444  00002088  20-03-2018 13:58:06  54331AA2  [000843B1-00086438]  www/img/Intrument2.png
00086439  2.0  0000  0008  0000704D  00002BC9  20-03-2018 13:58:07  7A6E3F62  [00086467-0008902F]  www/img/LAN1.png
00089030  2.0  0000  0008  00006179  00002345  20-03-2018 13:58:06  F227C9F5  [0008905E-0008B3A2]  www/img/LAN2.png
0008B3A3  2.0  0000  0008  000156C4  00012101  20-03-2018 13:58:06  4766C70E  [0008B3D1-0009D4D1]  www/img/logo.png
0009D4D2  2.0  0000  0008  0000740F  00002F8F  20-03-2018 13:58:06  A4E5054B  [0009D501-000A048F]  www/img/SCPI1.png
000A0490  2.0  0000  0008  00005DD6  000019E5  20-03-2018 13:58:06  10F8D9C4  [000A04BF-000A1EA3]  www/img/SCPI2.png
000A1EA4  2.0  0000  0008  00000261  00000101  20-03-2018 13:58:05  59765DD4  [000A1ECF-000A1FCF]  www/index.php
000A1FD0  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [000A1FFD-000A1FFC]  www/Instrument/
000A1FFD  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [000A2030-000A202F]  www/Instrument/novnc/
000A2030  2.0  0000  0008  00000012  00000012  20-03-2018 13:58:06  09EA74AA  [000A206E-000A207F]  www/Instrument/novnc/favicon.ico
000A2080  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [000A20BA-000A20B9]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/
000A20BA  2.0  0000  0008  00000153  00000151  20-03-2018 13:58:06  E8B725E1  [000A20FB-000A224B]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/alt.png
000A224C  2.0  0000  0008  000001F5  000001FA  20-03-2018 13:58:06  D063D8CA  [000A2293-000A248C]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/clipboard.png
000A248D  2.0  0000  0008  00000194  00000199  20-03-2018 13:58:06  310798F7  [000A24D2-000A266A]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/connect.png
000A266B  2.0  0000  0008  00000162  00000161  20-03-2018 13:58:06  6610B793  [000A26AD-000A280D]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/ctrl.png
000A280E  2.0  0000  0008  0000013D  00000142  20-03-2018 13:58:06  5FA26818  [000A2856-000A2997]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/ctrlaltdel.png
000A2998  2.0  0000  0008  00000562  00000567  20-03-2018 13:58:06  2EABA092  [000A29E0-000A2F46]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/disconnect.png
000A2F47  2.0  0000  0008  000003C3  000003C8  20-03-2018 13:58:06  06D319EE  [000A2F89-000A3350]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/drag.png
000A3351  2.0  0000  0008  00000181  00000182  20-03-2018 13:58:06  F86CB8F8  [000A3392-000A3513]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/esc.png
000A3514  2.0  0000  0008  0000019E  00000189  20-03-2018 13:58:06  FD031A25  [000A3558-000A36E0]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/expand.gif
000A36E1  2.0  0000  0008  0000047E  000000FF  20-03-2018 13:58:06  B17B6C52  [000A3726-000A3824]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/favicon.ico
000A3825  2.0  0000  0008  000001C5  000001C5  20-03-2018 13:58:06  86BA4433  [000A386A-000A3A2E]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/favicon.png
000A3A2F  2.0  0000  0008  000002ED  000002F2  20-03-2018 13:58:06  3956D9F0  [000A3A78-000A3D69]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/full_screen.png
000A3D6A  2.0  0000  0008  000001A7  00000199  20-03-2018 13:58:06  FFF8D302  [000A3DAC-000A3F44]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/hide.gif
000A3F45  2.0  0000  0008  00000503  00000508  20-03-2018 13:58:06  0E44D2DA  [000A3F8B-000A4492]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/keyboard.png
000A4493  2.0  0000  0008  0000014A  00000141  20-03-2018 13:58:06  297C782F  [000A44D5-000A4615]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/left.png
000A4616  2.0  0000  0008  000001FF  00000204  20-03-2018 13:58:06  33C0F7B9  [000A465E-000A4861]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/mouse_left.png
000A4862  2.0  0000  0008  00000205  0000020A  20-03-2018 13:58:06  DE48BB49  [000A48AC-000A4AB5]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/mouse_middle.png
000A4AB6  2.0  0000  0008  000001F1  000001F6  20-03-2018 13:58:06  B8155471  [000A4AFE-000A4CF3]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/mouse_none.png
000A4CF4  2.0  0000  0008  00000201  00000206  20-03-2018 13:58:06  4BDAF377  [000A4D3D-000A4F42]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/mouse_right.png
000A4F43  2.0  0000  0008  000000DF  000000D1  20-03-2018 13:58:06  5BC997F5  [000A4F8C-000A505C]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/new-down-24.png
000A505D  2.0  0000  0008  000000EE  000000E0  20-03-2018 13:58:06  059AC92F  [000A50A6-000A5185]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/new-left-24.png
000A5186  2.0  0000  0008  000000EA  000000DD  20-03-2018 13:58:06  D3CBF039  [000A51D0-000A52AC]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/new-right-24.png
000A52AD  2.0  0000  0008  000000B7  000000AB  20-03-2018 13:58:06  3407F6E1  [000A52F4-000A539E]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/new-up-24.png
000A539F  2.0  0000  0008  00000186  00000188  20-03-2018 13:58:06  4EA5EAAC  [000A53E2-000A5569]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/power.png
000A556A  2.0  0000  0008  00000257  0000025C  20-03-2018 13:58:06  4DA3EF2C  [000A55B1-000A580C]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/press_new.png
000A580D  2.0  0000  0008  00000122  0000011C  20-03-2018 13:58:06  11609785  [000A5850-000A596B]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/right.png
000A596C  2.0  0000  0008  00000141  0000013E  20-03-2018 13:58:06  0AA95190  [000A59B3-000A5AF0]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/r_left-16.png
000A5AF1  2.0  0000  0008  00000142  0000013D  20-03-2018 13:58:06  D26DA198  [000A5B39-000A5C75]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/r_right-16.png
000A5C76  2.0  0000  0008  000031EA  00002ED0  20-03-2018 13:58:06  BB29E23A  [000A5CC2-000A8B91]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/screen_320x460.png
000A8B92  2.0  0000  0008  0000070F  00000714  20-03-2018 13:58:06  6D5EA4CD  [000A8BDC-000A92EF]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/screen_57x57.png
000A92F0  2.0  0000  0008  0000460A  00003DE3  20-03-2018 13:58:06  82300E91  [000A933C-000AD11E]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/screen_700x700.png
000AD11F  2.0  0000  0008  000009BF  00000977  20-03-2018 13:58:06  4A582C85  [000AD165-000ADADB]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/settings.png
000ADADC  2.0  0000  0008  000002DF  000002E4  20-03-2018 13:58:06  AD86DFB3  [000ADB27-000ADE0A]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/showextrakeys.png
000ADE0B  2.0  0000  0008  000000AD  000000A0  20-03-2018 13:58:06  76A67EB7  [000ADE4D-000ADEEC]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/stop.png
000ADEED  2.0  0000  0008  00000183  00000186  20-03-2018 13:58:06  5026226C  [000ADF2E-000AE0B3]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/tab.png
000AE0B4  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [000AE0EF-000AE0EE]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/
000AE0EF  2.0  0000  0008  00002A18  000009ED  10-04-2018 09:04:02  95E49CF6  [000AE132-000AEB1E]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/base.css
000AEB1F  2.0  0000  0008  0000153E  0000088A  20-03-2018 13:58:05  7A8AC16F  [000AEB63-000AF3EC]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/base64.js
000AF3ED  2.0  0000  0008  00002AB0  000009FF  20-03-2018 17:29:18  611EECF8  [000AF437-000AFE35]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/base_mobile.css
000AFE36  2.0  0000  0008  00001205  000002F4  20-03-2018 13:58:05  32FDD938  [000AFE7A-000B016D]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/black.css
000B016E  2.0  0000  0008  00000534  000001A5  20-03-2018 13:58:05  F31B00F0  [000B01B1-000B0355]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/blue.css
000B0356  2.0  0000  0008  000007EE  000002B4  20-03-2018 13:58:05  58434E20  [000B039C-000B064F]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/browsers.js
000B0650  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [000B0696-000B0695]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/chrome-app/
000B0696  2.0  0000  0008  000024F9  00000A27  20-03-2018 13:58:05  17252ED4  [000B06E9-000B110F]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/chrome-app/tcp-client.js
000B1110  2.0  0000  0008  000029BA  00000F2C  20-03-2018 13:58:05  C52426D5  [000B1151-000B207C]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/des.js
000B207D  2.0  0000  0008  00005575  0000175C  20-03-2018 13:58:05  CD04C438  [000B20C2-000B381D]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/display.js
000B381E  2.0  0000  0008  00002C4A  00000A8C  20-03-2018 13:58:05  5D13357B  [000B3867-000B42F2]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/domkeytable.js
000B42F3  2.0  0000  0008  000004E0  000001EF  20-03-2018 13:58:05  66DA53C8  [000B433A-000B4528]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/encodings.js
000B4529  2.0  0000  0008  000010A2  000005A8  20-03-2018 13:58:05  7934485D  [000B456D-000B4B14]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/events.js
000B4B15  2.0  0000  0008  00000409  00000196  20-03-2018 13:58:05  C7D62201  [000B4B5E-000B4CF3]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/eventtarget.js
000B4CF4  2.0  0000  0008  00000EC4  00000467  20-03-2018 13:58:05  6AAB8870  [000B4D3B-000B51A1]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/fixedkeys.js
000B51A2  2.0  0000  0008  0000049A  000001CE  20-03-2018 13:58:05  6C773BC2  [000B51E8-000B53B5]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/inflator.js
000B53B6  2.0  0000  0008  0000C6A5  00002DAD  20-03-2018 13:58:05  CB3AA190  [000B53F9-000B81A5]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/input.js
000B81A6  2.0  0000  0008  00004AC1  00001319  20-03-2018 13:58:05  564AF4D0  [000B81EB-000B9503]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/jsunzip.js
000B9504  2.0  0000  0008  00005168  000015AA  20-03-2018 13:58:05  C9CCAD61  [000B954A-000BAAF3]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/keyboard.js
000BAAF4  2.0  0000  0008  000057FE  000011D5  20-03-2018 13:58:05  BFC59E51  [000BAB38-000BBD0C]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/keysym.js
000BBD0D  2.0  0000  0008  00005422  00001F89  20-03-2018 13:58:05  BA5BA9A2  [000BBD54-000BDCDC]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/keysymdef.js
000BDCDD  2.0  0000  0008  00000536  00000209  20-03-2018 13:58:05  156BE805  [000BDD22-000BDF2A]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/logging.js
000BDF2B  2.0  0000  0008  00006BDA  00004E97  20-03-2018 13:58:05  83395258  [000BDF6D-000C2E03]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/logo.js
000C2E04  2.0  0000  0008  00002740  00000A7D  20-03-2018 13:58:05  4F35F4AF  [000C2E47-000C38C3]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/mouse.js
000C38C4  2.0  0000  0008  000096B4  00004435  20-03-2018 13:58:05  75810239  [000C390E-000C7D42]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/Orbitron700.ttf
000C7D43  2.0  0000  0008  00004440  0000441B  20-03-2018 13:58:05  9B7440BD  [000C7D8E-000CC1A8]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/Orbitron700.woff
000CC1A9  2.0  0000  0008  000009BF  00000396  20-03-2018 13:58:05  EB0D8CA4  [000CC1EF-000CC584]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/playback.js
000CC585  2.0  0000  0008  0000074F  000002F4  20-03-2018 13:58:05  CA2202E0  [000CC5CB-000CC8BE]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/polyfill.js
000CC8BF  2.0  0000  0008  0000F4DE  000039CD  20-03-2018 13:58:05  552B77F4  [000CC900-000D02CC]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/rfb.js
000D02CD  2.0  0000  0008  0000013B  000000E7  20-03-2018 13:58:05  312DF302  [000D0312-000D03F8]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/strings.js
000D03F9  2.0  0000  0008  0000901A  00001C34  20-03-2018 13:58:05  8C2E1648  [000D0439-000D206C]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/ui.js
000D206D  2.0  0000  0008  00002425  00000B93  20-03-2018 13:58:05  D823E18B  [000D20AF-000D2C41]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/util.js
000D2C42  2.0  0000  0008  000009D7  000003B6  20-03-2018 13:58:05  BFC66E5F  [000D2C85-000D303A]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/vkeys.js
000D303B  2.0  0000  0008  0000043F  000001F6  20-03-2018 13:58:05  66464436  [000D307C-000D3271]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/vnc.js
000D3272  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [000D32BB-000D32BA]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/web-socket-js/
000D32BB  2.0  0000  0008  00001753  00001758  20-03-2018 13:58:05  F2D8E66E  [000D330E-000D4A65]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/web-socket-js/README.txt
000D4A66  2.0  0000  0008  000027EC  00000F3C  20-03-2018 13:58:05  C1200AA1  [000D4ABB-000D59F6]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/web-socket-js/swfobject.js
000D59F7  2.0  0000  0008  0002B3F3  0002981D  20-03-2018 13:58:05  044DC2E9  [000D5A51-000FF26D]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/web-socket-js/WebSocketMain.swf
000FF26E  2.0  0000  0008  000032F0  0000104B  20-03-2018 13:58:05  8FA21DD0  [000FF2C4-0010030E]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/web-socket-js/web_socket.js
0010030F  2.0  0000  0008  000023E2  00000B42  20-03-2018 13:58:05  FF6488B2  [00100354-00100E95]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/websock.js
00100E96  2.0  0000  0008  00001041  00000652  20-03-2018 13:58:05  F887C1C8  [00100EDB-0010152C]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/webutil.js
0010152D  2.0  0000  0008  000037B0  00000F15  20-03-2018 13:58:05  2076F13A  [00101576-0010248A]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/xtscancodes.js
0010248B  2.0  0000  0008  00000AE2  00000AA5  20-03-2018 13:58:05  5DF86B18  [001024C9-00102F6D]  www/Instrument/novnc/LICENSE.txt
00102F6E  2.0  0000  0008  00001512  000009A4  20-03-2018 13:58:06  ECFC1F4A  [00102FAA-0010394D]  www/Instrument/novnc/README.md
0010394E  2.0  0000  0008  0000BEF0  000023D0  10-04-2018 09:04:02  5672FDC1  [0010398D-00105D5C]  www/Instrument/novnc/vnc_auto.php
00105D5D  2.0  0000  0008  0000CD7D  00002637  20-03-2018 17:29:18  C76FD942  [00105DA3-001083D9]  www/Instrument/novnc/vnc_auto_mobile.php
001083DA  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [001083FF-001083FE]  www/js/
001083FF  2.0  0000  0008  000017EF  00000836  20-03-2018 13:58:06  29BD1571  [0010842C-00108C61]  www/js/cycle.js
00108C62  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [00108C8E-00108C8D]  www/js/device/
00108C8E  2.0  0000  0008  00012AEA  000031CD  20-03-2018 13:58:06  28E339A3  [00108CC4-0010BE90]  www/js/device/t_table.js
0010BE91  2.0  0000  0008  0000069E  000002D8  20-03-2018 13:58:06  D03B120A  [0010BEC2-0010C199]  www/js/home_info.js
0010C19A  2.0  0000  0008  00010C6C  00002D85  20-03-2018 13:58:06  5E8976A5  [0010C1C9-0010EF4D]  www/js/iscroll.js
0010EF4E  2.0  0000  0008  00000C31  00000539  20-03-2018 13:58:06  DB5D4D50  [0010EF83-0010F4BB]  www/js/jquery.cookie.js
0010F4BC  2.0  0000  0008  0000FD23  00003377  20-03-2018 13:58:06  F4479356  [0010F4F5-0011286B]  www/js/jquery.fileupload.js
0011286C  2.0  0000  0008  00002C0C  00000B06  20-03-2018 13:58:06  A612B1BD  [001128AB-001133B0]  www/js/jquery.iframe-transport.js
001133B1  2.0  0000  0008  000176F8  00008125  20-03-2018 13:58:06  6AE93E35  [001133E3-0011B507]  www/js/jquery.min.js
0011B508  2.0  0000  0008  000013E4  000006A3  20-03-2018 13:58:06  40D7DC92  [0011B541-0011BBE3]  www/js/jquery.pagination.js
0011BBE4  2.0  0000  0008  00001E96  00000AA1  20-03-2018 13:58:06  8C7EA0B6  [0011BC1E-0011C6BE]  www/js/jquery.transit.min.js
0011C6BF  2.0  0000  0008  00000FC3  00000544  20-03-2018 13:58:06  5737EAD4  [0011C6F8-0011CC3B]  www/js/jquery.wordexport.js
0011CC3C  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [0011CC70-0011CC6F]  www/js/JSON-js-master/
0011CC70  2.0  0000  0008  000017EF  00000836  20-03-2018 13:58:06  29BD1571  [0011CCAC-0011D4E1]  www/js/JSON-js-master/cycle.js
0011D4E2  2.0  0000  0008  00004800  0000157C  20-03-2018 13:58:06  685DAC78  [0011D51E-0011EA99]  www/js/JSON-js-master/json2.js
0011EA9A  2.0  0000  0008  000023FF  00000A6B  20-03-2018 13:58:06  FE620627  [0011EADB-0011F545]  www/js/JSON-js-master/json_parse.js
0011F546  2.0  0000  0008  00003341  00000CFC  20-03-2018 13:58:06  C908B106  [0011F58D-00120288]  www/js/JSON-js-master/json_parse_state.js
00120289  2.0  0000  0008  00000689  0000035D  20-03-2018 13:58:06  B4BE88FD  [001202C3-0012061F]  www/js/JSON-js-master/README
00120620  2.0  0000  0008  00004800  0000157C  20-03-2018 13:58:06  685DAC78  [0012064D-00121BC8]  www/js/json2.js
00121BC9  2.0  0000  0008  000023FF  00000A6B  20-03-2018 13:58:06  FE620627  [00121BFB-00122665]  www/js/json_parse.js
00122666  2.0  0000  0008  00003341  00000CFC  20-03-2018 13:58:06  C908B106  [0012269E-00123399]  www/js/json_parse_state.js
0012339A  2.0  0000  0008  000046A4  00000C68  20-03-2018 13:58:06  106FAAB6  [001233CC-00124033]  www/js/lan_config.js
00124034  2.0  0000  0008  00000085  00000062  20-03-2018 13:58:06  872B6CB6  [00124062-001240C3]  www/js/log_in.js
001240C4  2.0  0000  0008  0000215A  00000BE2  20-03-2018 13:58:06  A11D7515  [001240F0-00124CD1]  www/js/main.js
00124CD2  2.0  0000  0008  00001DD7  00000A40  20-03-2018 13:58:06  02D7D4BB  [00124D00-0012573F]  www/js/mcplib.js
00125740  2.0  0000  0008  000001E4  000000B9  20-03-2018 13:58:06  CC50E34D  [0012576B-00125823]  www/js/npm.js
00125824  2.0  0000  0008  00019503  000084B5  20-03-2018 13:58:06  FC554B04  [00125858-0012DD0C]  www/js/TweenMax.min.js
0012DD0D  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [0012DD39-0012DD38]  www/js/vendor/
0012DD39  2.0  0000  0008  00003ED9  00001325  20-03-2018 13:58:06  B8246F6C  [0012DD78-0012F09C]  www/js/vendor/jquery.ui.widget.js
0012F09D  2.0  0000  0008  00000B2D  0000045B  20-03-2018 13:58:06  F719B09D  [0012F0C7-0012F521]  www/js/xhtml
0012F522  2.0  0000  0008  00007D6F  00001F54  20-03-2018 13:58:06  0AE8B9F2  [0012F55E-001314B1]  www/js/xhtml1-transitional.dtd
001314B2  2.0  0000  0008  00001E9B  00000686  20-03-2018 13:58:05  7F4DEC6B  [001314DB-00131B60]  www/lan.php
00131B61  2.0  0000  0008  00002BDE  000008FB  20-03-2018 13:58:05  CB8B927E  [00131B92-0013248C]  www/lan_setting.php
0013248D  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [001324B3-001324B2]  www/log/
001324B3  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  20-03-2018 13:58:03  00000000  [001324EB-001324EA]  www/log/lighttpd_error.log
001324EB  2.0  0000  0008  000010C6  00000600  20-03-2018 13:58:05  4E3BEE8D  [00132516-00132B15]  www/login.php
00132B16  2.0  0000  0008  0000011B  000000B7  20-03-2018 13:58:05  562D1E79  [00132B42-00132BF8]  www/logout.php
00132BF9  2.0  0000  0008  000010AE  00000546  20-03-2018 13:58:03  F7CB535A  [00132C2B-00133170]  www/SCPI_control.php
00133171  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [00133197-00133196]  www/src/
00133197  2.0  0000  0008  000000B9  0000007F  20-03-2018 13:58:03  E60190A8  [001331C4-00133242]  www/src/IDN.php
00133243  2.0  0000  0008  000000C8  00000082  20-03-2018 13:58:03  9E8519B7  [00133273-001332F4]  www/src/index.html
001332F5  2.0  0000  0008  00000096  00000060  20-03-2018 11:03:29  ABE0D254  [00133324-00133383]  www/vncserver.txt
00133384  2.0  0000  0008  00001366  00000502  20-03-2018 13:58:03  0C3FC166  [001333B1-001338B2]  www/welcome.php
001338B3  2.0  0000  0008  0000CD29  00000FDE  18-04-2018 17:53:04  E101006D  [001338E4-001348C1]  factory_setting.xml
001348C2  2.0  0000  0008  003DBB6D  00154A22  07-03-2018 14:20:22  1ADBD5D6  [001348FA-0028931B]  top_sds1000b_fpga_256M.bit
0028931C  2.0  0000  0008  00000E3A  00000337  20-03-2018 14:44:03  3C5F04C4  [00289343-00289679]  update.sh
0028967A  2.0  0000  0008  000058A2  000020FB  20-03-2018 11:04:02  754BE126  [002896A1-0028B79B]  vncserver
0028B79C  2.0  0000  0008  00C9BFBC  003ED733  03-05-2018 17:29:18  5E6E10C9  [0028B7C6-00678EF8]  sds1000b.app
00678EF9  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:29  00000000  [00678F1F-00678F1E]  drivers/
00678F1F  2.0  0000  0008  000068AD  000027D3  08-07-2017 00:10:13  FAAA09A7  [00678F50-0067B722]  drivers/g_usbtmc.ko
0067B723  2.0  0000  0008  0000ECB5  00005D2C  08-07-2017 00:10:13  6E3E714E  [0067B758-00681483]  drivers/libcomposite.ko
00681484  2.0  0000  0008  000118E6  0000778E  17-11-2017 10:16:20  4C1729CD  [006814B4-00688C41]  drivers/mt7601u.ko
00688C42  2.0  0000  0008  000028C5  00000DF7  08-07-2017 00:10:12  EADEFABE  [00688C74-00689A6A]  drivers/siglentkb.ko
00689A6B  2.0  0000  0008  00002E6E  000010D2  08-07-2017 00:10:12  2DAC2FC4  [00689A9F-0068AB70]  drivers/siglent_dma.ko
0068AB71  2.0  0000  0008  00002396  00000D35  08-07-2017 00:10:12  888DAB3C  [0068ABA6-0068B8DA]  drivers/siglent_vdma.ko
0068B8DB  2.0  0000  0008  00002288  00000B80  20-03-2018 11:04:02  E0989036  [0068B90F-0068C48E]  drivers/siglent_vnc.ko
0068C48F  2.0  0000  0008  00003729  00001639  08-07-2017 00:10:12  AF8F4F6D  [0068C4C6-0068DAFE]  drivers/xilinx_axicdma.ko
0068DAFF  2.0  0000  0008  00003B9B  00001756  08-07-2017 00:10:12  A70C189A  [0068DB35-0068F28A]  drivers/xilinx_axidma.ko
0068F28B  2.0  0000  0008  0000412D  00001999  08-07-2017 00:10:12  6F40AEAD  [0068F2BF-00690C57]  drivers/xilinx_vdma.ko
00690C58  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:29  00000000  [00690C7A-00690C79]  lib/
00690C7A  2.0  0000  0008  00005F13  00001B04  20-03-2018 11:04:02  9F6ED423  [00690CA8-006927AB]  lib/brusvxi11.so
006927AC  2.0  0000  0008  0000916E  00003F99  20-03-2018 11:04:02  5B27B9AB  [006927E2-0069677A]  lib/ext_device_driver.so
0069677B  2.0  0000  0008  0006656C  00022BE8  20-03-2018 11:04:02  7405C839  [006967AA-006B9391]  lib/libEasyLib.so
006B9392  2.0  0000  0008  0001E649  00008EBF  20-03-2018 11:04:02  AB77BB49  [006B93C3-006C2281]  lib/libvncclient.so
006C2282  2.0  0000  0008  0001E649  00008EBF  20-03-2018 11:04:02  AB77BB49  [006C22B5-006CB173]  lib/libvncclient.so.1
006CB174  2.0  0000  0008  00047C72  00016090  20-03-2018 11:04:02  6DB3266F  [006CB1A5-006E1234]  lib/libvncserver.so
006E1235  2.0  0000  0008  00047C72  00016091  20-03-2018 11:04:02  6DB3266F  [006E1268-006F72F8]  lib/libvncserver.so.1
006F72F9  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [006F731F-006F731E]  ui_data/
006F731F  2.0  0000  0008  0001984A  00003053  08-03-2018 16:16:09  A321AADF  [006F7359-006FA3AB]  ui_data/arabic_help_info.xml
006FA3AC  2.0  0000  0008  00022B4D  00002B17  18-04-2018 17:53:04  B8A5607F  [006FA3E6-006FCEFC]  ui_data/arabic_menu_info.xml
006FCEFD  2.0  0000  0008  00008529  00001991  19-04-2018 14:25:18  722FD019  [006FCF37-006FE8C7]  ui_data/arabic_text_info.xml
006FE8C8  2.0  0000  0008  000003F8  00000058  08-03-2018 16:16:09  9DBCA89C  [006FE8F5-006FE94C]  ui_data/dev.bmp
006FE94D  2.0  0000  0008  00019EFD  00003092  08-03-2018 16:16:09  A042F574  [006FE988-00701A19]  ui_data/english_help_info.xml
00701A1A  2.0  0000  0008  00022DDF  00002B36  18-04-2018 17:53:04  88791D66  [00701A55-0070458A]  ui_data/english_menu_info.xml
0070458B  2.0  0000  0008  00008529  00001991  19-04-2018 14:25:18  722FD019  [007045C6-00705F56]  ui_data/english_text_info.xml
00705F57  2.0  0000  0008  0001986B  00003073  08-03-2018 16:16:09  6D3AED90  [00705F91-00709003]  ui_data/french_help_info.xml
00709004  2.0  0000  0008  000230AD  00002C7E  18-04-2018 17:53:04  8AED7EF8  [0070903E-0070BCBB]  ui_data/french_menu_info.xml
0070BCBC  2.0  0000  0008  0000850D  000019B5  19-04-2018 14:25:18  C784D9DF  [0070BCF6-0070D6AA]  ui_data/french_text_info.xml
0070D6AB  2.0  0000  0008  00019838  0000306C  08-03-2018 16:16:09  FF327C9E  [0070D6E5-00710750]  ui_data/german_help_info.xml
00710751  2.0  0000  0008  0002358D  00002D69  20-04-2018 17:31:26  5C3D513E  [0071078B-007134F3]  ui_data/german_menu_info.xml
007134F4  2.0  0000  0008  00008C86  00001BDE  20-04-2018 17:31:26  F42DFD2B  [0071352E-0071510B]  ui_data/german_text_info.xml
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007272A4  2.0  0000  0008  000237D5  00002E05  18-04-2018 17:53:05  E52D07AF  [007272DE-0072A0E2]  ui_data/korean_menu_info.xml
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0072BAAE  2.0  0000  0008  00019838  0000306C  08-03-2018 16:16:09  0E61E2CD  [0072BAEC-0072EB57]  ui_data/portuguese_help_info.xml
0072EB58  2.0  0000  0008  00023003  00002C22  18-04-2018 17:53:04  B53815DB  [0072EB96-007317B7]  ui_data/portuguese_menu_info.xml
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00748654  2.0  0000  0008  00008540  000019B7  19-04-2018 14:25:18  3D98F0D4  [0074868F-0074A045]  ui_data/spanish_text_info.xml
0074A046  2.0  0000  0008  00018402  00003278  08-03-2018 16:16:09  310C9F64  [0074A07E-0074D2F5]  ui_data/trad_help_info.xml
0074D2F6  2.0  0000  0008  000236C1  00002EC2  18-04-2018 17:53:04  8C72FBFC  [0074D32E-007501EF]  ui_data/trad_menu_info.xml
007501F0  2.0  0000  0008  0000846C  00001AF7  19-04-2018 14:25:18  5395CA64  [00750228-00751D1E]  ui_data/trad_text_info.xml
00751D1F  2.0  0000  0008  00000308  00000066  08-03-2018 16:16:10  539A7E1A  [00751D4C-00751DB1]  ui_data/usb.bmp
Disk Entries: 225   Total Entries: 225   Directory Size: 24895 bytes  [00751DB2-00757EF0]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SLA1016_8.1.9.ADS

File Header Size: 00000070
00000000 - File Checksum: DA10D267 [00000004-004C5322] (with only the File Header decrypted)  CKSM OK
00000004 - File Size: 004C52B3 (without 0x70 bytes of the File Header)
0000000C - HW Version: 14501
00000026 - Vendor/Brand: SIGLENT
0000003A - USB Host Controller: ISP1763
****************************************************
Decrypting the 0x2800 and 0x1400 blocks...
Reversing file...
XORing with 0xFF (incrementing pattern)...
XORing with 0xFF from 0x0026295A until 0x004C52B2
****************************************************
00000000 --- Section Checksum: D827DE50
00000004 --- Section Size: 004C527F [00000034-004C52B2]  CKSM OK
00000008 --- Section # 00000007
00000034 --- 004C52B2  ***** ZIP file *****
Offset    Ver  Flag  Comp  Size      Packed    Modified             CRC32                          Name         Extra Details
00000034  2.0  0000  0008  0000CD29  00000FDE  18-04-2018 17:53:04  E101006D  [00000065-00001042]  factory_setting.xml
00001043  2.0  0000  0008  003DBB68  000D71AD  30-03-2018 10:36:14  6A4BBCC3  [00001076-000D8222]  top_sds1000b_fpga.bit
000D8223  2.0  0000  0008  00000CD1  0000030A  08-11-2017 16:59:20  63FABAD6  [000D824A-000D8553]  update.sh
000D8554  2.0  0000  0008  00C9ACE4  003ECB9A  20-04-2018 17:33:10  9D7B62C9  [000D857E-004C5117]  sds1000b.app
Disk Entries: 4   Total Entries: 4   Directory Size: 389 bytes  [004C5118-004C529C]

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 22, 2018, 09:18:51 pm
As a note/addition I installed the FW and then OS from a freshly formatted and only 512 MB USB stick.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 22, 2018, 09:36:50 pm
As a note/addition I installed the FW and then OS from a freshly formatted and only 512 MB USB stick.

So it's confirmed that we can do it in any order we like.

Regarding USB stick size, I've already suspected that it doesn't really matter, but since I was in a hurry I did not want to take a chance and sticked - pun intended ;) - with the update instructions. Glad you can confirm that any USB stick will work, as long as it uses a (not ex!) FAT format.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 22, 2018, 09:44:16 pm
As a note/addition I installed the FW and then OS from a freshly formatted and only 512 MB USB stick.

So it's confirmed that we can do it in any order we like.
Not entirely sure as some of the improvements you've listed in the Review thread I've not seen yet. More study needed. Got to whip out and get another shipment so it'll be later before I look at this all in detail.
Like Arny, I'll be back.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 23, 2018, 05:30:40 am
As a note/addition I installed the FW and then OS from a freshly formatted and only 512 MB USB stick.

So it's confirmed that we can do it in any order we like.
Not entirely sure as some of the improvements you've listed in the Review thread I've not seen yet. More study needed. Got to whip out and get another shipment so it'll be later before I look at this all in detail.
Like Arny, I'll be back.  :)

Please don't alienate the folks here ;)

Verifying the listed fixes/improvements is a completely different matter and I will certainly take a closer look at them soon - even though I generally have very little time right now.

Whenever the system status displays 7.1.6.1.25R1 as the software version, then this proves that both (OS and FW) updates have worked okay. No further confirmation needed.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nez on May 23, 2018, 07:01:43 am
For some reason, the OS update doesn't seem to install for me.  However, I was able to install the firmware with the .ADS file (using the same usb stick) so now my system version shows:

Software Version: 7.0.6.1.25R1
FPGA Version: 2018-03-06

Any ideas why it won't pick up the OS update during bootup?  I've tried having the usb stick in the front and back ports when I power on.  The files were in the root directory with nothing else on the drive.

I'll try another usb stick when I have time to go find one.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on May 23, 2018, 07:08:35 am
For some reason, the OS update doesn't seem to install for me.  However, I was able to install the firmware with the .ADS file (using the same usb stick) so now my system version shows:

Software Version: 7.0.6.1.25R1
FPGA Version: 2018-03-06

Any ideas why it won't pick up the OS update during bootup?  I've tried having the usb stick in the front and back ports when I power on.  The files were in the root directory with nothing else on the drive.

I'll try another usb stick when I have time to go find one.

same issue for me...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 23, 2018, 08:27:54 am
For those who have issues with the OS update:

Did you make sure the 4 files match the screenshot in the update instructions?

With the USB stick plugged in, if you go to any save/load/update function, are the files on the stick properly displayed on the scope?


EDIT: Attached a screenshot of the System Status display on my scope after the update.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on May 23, 2018, 08:44:36 am
Any ideas why it won't pick up the OS update during bootup?  I've tried having the usb stick in the front and back ports when I power on.  The files were in the root directory with nothing else on the drive.

1. Try to format the stick on Linux just to be totally sure.

2. Have you tried plugin in the stick after scope boot?

I know it's not what the manual says but it was the only way I managed to upgrade my DS1052E...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nez on May 23, 2018, 09:11:53 am
For those who have issues with the OS update:

Did you make sure the 4 files match the screenshot in the update instructions?

With the USB stick plugged in, if you go to any save/load/update function, are the files on the stick properly displayed on the scope?

The 4 files match in name, timestamp, and file size as those shown in the instructions pdf file.

Also, I can save screenshots to the usb stick while it's plugged in with the 'Print' button, and see the file system (for example when I installed the firmware).  See attached screenshot showing the 4 files, and the folder holding the screenshots that was created automatically.

Hitting the 'Print' button while in the System Status page won't take a screenshot for me on the device (nothing happens), but the Software Version is as shown in my previous post, and my Hardware Version is "01-03".


1. Try to format the stick on Linux just to be totally sure.

2. Have you tried plugin in the stick after scope boot?

I know it's not what the manual says but it was the only way I managed to upgrade my DS1052E...

I only have Windows available at the moment, so I can't try formatting through linux. Sorry!  It is an 8GB drive formatted as Fat32.

I've tried inserting the usb stick while the scope was powered off, and also while it was on and then rebooting it.  Same result either way for the OS not installing.  The firmware installed fine through the normal Utility menu on the scope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 23, 2018, 09:34:58 am
As a note/addition I installed the FW and then OS from a freshly formatted and only 512 MB USB stick.

So it's confirmed that we can do it in any order we like.
Not entirely sure as some of the improvements you've listed in the Review thread I've not seen yet. More study needed. Got to whip out and get another shipment so it'll be later before I look at this all in detail.
Like Arny, I'll be back.  :)

Please don't alienate the folks here ;)

Verifying the listed fixes/improvements is a completely different matter and I will certainly take a closer look at them soon - even though I generally have very little time right now.

Whenever the system status displays 7.1.6.1.25R1 as the software version, then this proves that both (OS and FW) updates have worked okay. No further confirmation needed.
Yep. it's all good.

Not sure what you guys are doing to not have success and HW version is immaterial to success. I've done 2 units the oldest being a beta unit with SN# 0012 and another built ~4 weeks back. Downgrade to 20R1 and back to 25R1 with no probs. It doesn't even seen to matter which order to do it either, OS first or FW first.
It does help to have a USB stick with LED indication so you know the processes are happening. Just be patient and let it happen.
I've been using 2 USB sticks both FAT formatted, one 8G and another 512M.

Other than to try downloading again and/or another USB stick I have nothing else to suggest, sorry.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 23, 2018, 09:48:21 am
For me this confirms that the USB-stick and its formatting is fine and I cannot think of any reason why the automatic OS update wouldn't work.

I've dropped Siglent a note - hopefully they can come up with some more suggestions, but I guess they would have to be able to reproduce the issue, which might be a problem.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 23, 2018, 09:53:20 am
For me this confirms that the USB-stick and its formatting is fine and I cannot think of any reason why the automatic OS update wouldn't work.
One possibility is inserting the OS upgrade without the DSO OFF. Instruction clearly states it should be and then after inserted power ON. It'll reboot a time or two but when finished stop at the normal display.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 23, 2018, 09:58:32 am
For me this confirms that the USB-stick and its formatting is fine and I cannot think of any reason why the automatic OS update wouldn't work.
One possibility is inserting the OS upgrade without the DSO OFF. Instruction clearly states it should be and then after inserted power ON. It'll reboot a time or two but when finished stop at the normal display.

As I understand it, member "nez" has already tried that...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on May 23, 2018, 11:30:14 am
I only have Windows available at the moment, so I can't try formatting through linux. Sorry!  It is an 8GB drive formatted as Fat32.

I've tried inserting the usb stick while the scope was powered off, and also while it was on and then rebooting it.  Same result either way for the OS not installing.  The firmware installed fine through the normal Utility menu on the scope.

OK. Linux formatting would be a "remote" possibility.

My last suggestion is:

Format the stick with FAT. Ensure that the scope recognizes the stick and save some files (captures) from the scope to the stick.

Then, power off the scope, remove the stick and copy the 4 files to the stick as the manual says (don't remove the captures).

Ensure that you are doing clean ejections from Win.

Insert in the scope and power on.

Also, check with some hash prog that the files you have in the stick have the correct hash (crc32 is enough).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: cardre on May 23, 2018, 11:48:37 am
The 4 files match in name, timestamp, and file size as those shown in the instructions pdf file.

Hmm, not sure they do exactly match the sizes. Maybe try downloading a fresh copy of the OS file, possibly with a different browser, if you have one available (Chrome, Firefox) just to be sure. Then try again.

I updated mine successfully and did the firmware first then OS second. Apparently though the order is not important.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 23, 2018, 12:04:18 pm
Okay, I just got a reply from Siglent and they would like to know the result when a different USB stick is used.

As unlikely as it seems to me, there aren't many possibilities left, so you should definitely try a different USB stick, preferably a different brand as well. maybe you could also provide the information what you actually use.

I would also strongly consider the advice given by cadre above. Corrupted files would certainly prevent the update process.

EDIT: oh yes, and tv84's suggestion should be considered as well ...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 23, 2018, 12:13:47 pm
I updated mine successfully and did the firmware first then OS second. Apparently though the order is not important.

Please let us know whether the new custom probes fit your needs, once you've tried it out.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Old Printer on May 23, 2018, 01:00:55 pm
My next serious purchase is an entry level 4 ch scope. I have been closely watching offerings from Rigol, Siglent and GW Instek. I have to say, I am impressed with the communication and response from Siglent. New release bugs and questions about how quickly they would be addressed were probably the most negative comments about these two new scopes. So far I am impressed with Siglent's effort to get this done quickly and with an open mind as to requested changes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on May 23, 2018, 05:26:12 pm
- Kingston data traveler 100 G3 32Gb: no way to get it works
- Transcend SD card 8Gb with USB adapter: work at first try
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: radiolistener on May 23, 2018, 06:02:04 pm
New release bugs and questions about how quickly they would be addressed were probably the most negative comments about these two new scopes. So far I am impressed with Siglent's effort to get this done quickly and with an open mind as to requested changes.

On 8 Febrary 2018 I sent the issue about signal distortions (which was added in the latest firmware for SDS1102X) to Siglent Support.
But there is still no fix for this annoying bug. And I still stay with old firmware where this bug is missing.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nctnico on May 23, 2018, 06:06:53 pm
New release bugs and questions about how quickly they would be addressed were probably the most negative comments about these two new scopes. So far I am impressed with Siglent's effort to get this done quickly and with an open mind as to requested changes.
On 8 Febrary 2018 I sent the issue about signal distortions (which was added in the latest firmware for SDS1102X) to Siglent Support.
But there is still no fix for this annoying bug. And I still stay with old firmware where this bug is missing.
People make a lot of noise and praise new firmware releases but they fail to realise they bought a flawed device to begin with, not all bugs are fixed and some bugs may never be fixed.  :palm:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on May 24, 2018, 11:08:13 am
Noob question: the siglent and root passwords of this scope (new OS) are known?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 24, 2018, 11:11:20 am
Noob question: the siglent and root passwords of this scope (new OS) are known?
One would guess they're the same as they've always been. I know not otherwise.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Old Printer on May 24, 2018, 03:32:01 pm
New release bugs and questions about how quickly they would be addressed were probably the most negative comments about these two new scopes. So far I am impressed with Siglent's effort to get this done quickly and with an open mind as to requested changes.
On 8 Febrary 2018 I sent the issue about signal distortions (which was added in the latest firmware for SDS1102X) to Siglent Support.
But there is still no fix for this annoying bug. And I still stay with old firmware where this bug is missing.
People make a lot of noise and praise new firmware releases but they fail to realise they bought a flawed device to begin with, not all bugs are fixed and some bugs may never be fixed.  :palm:

I understand what you are saying, but this may be the new "normal" in this class of scope. Releasing "rough" product seems to be a trend. Time will tell if someone can release a polished product with these specs and at this price point. If not, hobbyists may well be willing to be a part of the development process, and live with some unfixable  bugs that professional users would not stand for, all in the name of price.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nez on May 25, 2018, 04:52:17 am
Okay, I just got a reply from Siglent and they would like to know the result when a different USB stick is used.

As unlikely as it seems to me, there aren't many possibilities left, so you should definitely try a different USB stick, preferably a different brand as well. maybe you could also provide the information what you actually use.

I would also strongly consider the advice given by cadre above. Corrupted files would certainly prevent the update process.

EDIT: oh yes, and tv84's suggestion should be considered as well ...

Ok, I made sure the files were fine and tried a different usb stick, a Kingston DataTraveler 8GB I just bought rather than the junky no-name stick I had available previously (a free handout, from a convention or something).

With the new usb stick, the OS updated successfully right away.

Thanks all for the various suggestions to troubleshoot!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on May 25, 2018, 09:46:02 am
With the new usb stick, the OS updated successfully right away.

Thanks all for the various suggestions to troubleshoot!

nez,

Please read https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdm3045x-boot-hang/msg1565089/#msg1565089 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdm3045x-boot-hang/msg1565089/#msg1565089) and provide us with your 2 USB controllers info.

The one that didn't work and the one that worked.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on May 26, 2018, 03:18:58 am
Hello,

First thing that I noticed in the newest firmware is that AC trigger level indicator is still missing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Added later:  I have no clue how the fix of IC2 bug passed QA test and was added into the new firmware but this is what we get now:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=441550;image)

1) what is that suffix 'A' doing in the hex output  (before they used H)?
2) what is the point in using the prefix '0x' and the suffix (I assume Siglent meant 'H' but ended up with 'A' due to some strange reasons)? If you want to save space then either use the prefix or the suffix but not both because the screen is small and space is precious. I would say - use  none, since after I  have set the format to 'Hex' I don't need any reminders/hints embedded into the data  since I am shown what I asked for - the hexadecimal data;
3) it is a nice idea to have a dedicated window to show the missing part of the string although I would implement it differently. Anyway, I would be happy with it too but just look at the last hex number in the first line (19A) and the first hex number in the second line (1BA) - the guys lost 0x1A or 1AH (a matter of taste);
4)again, I think consistency is important. Look at the last hex number in the packet (it's 0x1F) displayed in the 'Long Data' window - it is there. Now look at the SDA and SCL lines, the end of the packet - 0x1F is there. Now look at the decoded data (the line at the bottom of the screen) - the last part is  '0AA 0' - it must be 0x1F and nothing else to be synchronized with other data.

I think I will downgrade the firmware for now.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: imo on May 26, 2018, 06:30:18 am
Quote
I understand what you are saying, but this may be the new "normal" in this class of scope. Releasing "rough" product seems to be a trend.
Releasing a "rough product" is a trend today everywhere, indeed. It is the result of the new "Agile mindset" especially with the sw community, which considers a "waterfall" sw development project approach obsolete.
Moreover, the number of sw developers involved in this kind of products is rather small, my guess is the number of sw developers who actually mess with the above stuff at Rigol or Siglent is 1.53 in average.
Soon or later their willingness to provide fast fixes will decline, as the number of newly introduced bugs will be higher than the number of bugs fixed..
PS: I saw that with the largest IT internationals I worked with in past. The staffing ratio of their hw_developers:sw_developers:sales&marketing people with their strategic products was typically 4:1:20000 world-wide..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 26, 2018, 07:13:21 am
First thing that I noticed in the newest firmware is that AC trigger level indicator is still missing.
Okay, that doesn’t surprise me as there was absolutely no evidence we would get that at all, let alone for this intermediate update. Yet I’ll ask for once why this request is persistently ignored.

Added later:  I have no clue how the fix of IC2 bug passed QA test and was added into the new firmware but this is what we get now:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=441550;image)

First let me say thank you for trying out the new IIC decoder and documenting its issues so thoroughly. I’m really sad to see this mess.

1) what is that suffix 'A' doing in the hex output  (before they used H)?
2) what is the point in using the prefix '0x' and the suffix (I assume Siglent meant 'H' but ended up with 'A' due to some strange reasons)? If you want to save space then either use the prefix or the suffix but not both because the screen is small and space is precious. I would say - use  none, since after I  have set the format to 'Hex' I don't need any reminders/hints embedded into the data  since I am shown what I asked for - the hexadecimal data;
It is quite obvious that the decoder is messed up. The ‘0x’ doesn’t belong there and the ‘A’ should be ‘H’. I think a (non capital!) ‘h’ suffix might still be useful to clearly indicate the numeric format used when taking screenshots.

3) it is a nice idea to have a dedicated window to show the missing part of the string although I would implement it differently. Anyway, I would be happy with it too but just look at the last hex number in the first line (19A) and the first hex number in the second line (1BA) - the guys lost 0x1A or 1AH (a matter of taste);
Yes, the text doesn’t quite fit the window width.
How would you implement it?

4)again, I think consistency is important. Look at the last hex number in the packet (it's 0x1F) displayed in the 'Long Data' window - it is there. Now look at the SDA and SCL lines, the end of the packet - 0x1F is there. Now look at the decoded data (the line at the bottom of the screen) - the last part is  '0AA 0' - it must be 0x1F and nothing else to be synchronized with other data.
 
It is quite obvious that the packet is severely misaligned and truncated in the bottom decoding line. You get the first 11 bytes at a wrong position – and a red dot at the right end of the bracket, indicating that there is more data – how true.

What happens if you zoom out? Is the bottom decoder line still misaligned and/or truncated?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on May 26, 2018, 08:14:08 am

It is quite obvious that the decoder is messed up. The ‘0x’ doesn’t belong there and the ‘A’ should be ‘H’. I think a (non capital!) ‘h’ suffix might still be useful to clearly indicate the numeric format used when taking screenshots.

What a mess.

0x belongs there, (example here data 00) in first place as 0x00. It tell that it is hex. 0x is standard method for tell data is in hex format. Without any exeption.
Also it is enough in this case it show it with first byte. After then who do not understand next bytes are something other than hex. I can not imagine any. So after each data there do not need anything for tell every byte it is hex. User have selected hex and first 0x also show it if some other people look only image.

It can be as in image example: 0x00 01 02 03 04 05 06..... etc. It is totally stupid waste of tiny resources if add H or h or what ever after every data byte.  if 0xdd (dd=data)  in fisrt place do not make clear to everyone that displayed data is hex..... unprintable.

For Siglent: Just remove these stupidities (H and now accidentally this weird A) from displayed data string. Without any question. No one miss these waste of display area. First place 0x tell hex is in use. If one who use serial decoder do not understand 0x it is not scope manufacturer problem at all. Period.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 26, 2018, 08:50:05 am
It can be as in image example: 0x00 01 02 03 04 05 06..... etc. It is totally stupid waste of tiny resources if add H or h or what ever after every data byte.  if 0xdd (dd=data)  in fisrt place do not make clear to everyone that displayed data is hex..... unprintable.

I fully agree.

I just didn't think that far when I posted my last reply. After the huge disappointment about this quite obviously totally untested piece of code I would just have been happy to get the previous appearance back.

Now I begin to understand - have you suggested that change? And the attempt to implement it produced the mess we have now?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nctnico on May 26, 2018, 08:50:32 am
 :palm: The A stands for 'Acknowledge' of the I2C bus. There will probably an 'N' or '~A' for not-acknowledge .
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kerouanton on May 26, 2018, 11:05:55 am
I fully agree too.

0x at the beginning of the string to remind it's hex, and the rest using just 2 hex-digit pairs.


By the way, I'm fitting my hobby lab with the full range of Siglent equipment (PSU, Scope, SA, Meter, FuncGen), and noticed a few bugs/issues for example on the SA32xx. Is this forum a good way to let Siglent know about those issues in the hope they will profide fixes?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on May 26, 2018, 02:02:21 pm
Siglent could use GREEN for ACK, RED for NACK and use lower case 'h', 'd', 'a' at the end of the data to indicate HEX, DECIMAL, ASCII
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 26, 2018, 08:32:07 pm
I fully agree too.

0x at the beginning of the string to remind it's hex, and the rest using just 2 hex-digit pairs.


By the way, I'm fitting my hobby lab with the full range of Siglent equipment (PSU, Scope, SA, Meter, FuncGen), and noticed a few bugs/issues for example on the SA32xx. Is this forum a good way to let Siglent know about those issues in the hope they will profide fixes?
Certainly, some members here have close contact with Siglent and have been/are beta testers for their products.
There are primary threads for any of their products that forum Search can find and they're the best place to ask.
The SSA's are a complex instrument for the hobbyist and many users produce results they have trouble understanding but some study of this often linked KS AN gives good guidance for SSA use:
Keysight AN-150
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdf)

Main SSA thread that maybe you can find the problem you see already discussed.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 27, 2018, 02:34:00 am
After installing FW 25R1 and a post by Performa01 about the updated Webserver I'd better take a look at it.
Mentioned here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1555936/#msg1555936 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1555936/#msg1555936)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/?action=dlattach;attach=438190;image)

What an improvement, it was not bad before but now it rocks.  :)
You're first greeted with a welcome homepage that lists scope model, SN#, FW series, IP and some further info.
From this webrowser tab welcome landing page select the 'Instrument control' icon to see this:
Captured from the browser Screen Save icon:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=442195)


It fills ~1/2 the page and near the frequency counter there's a small tab/icon arrow to expand or retract a virtual front panel UI to the page and allow full remote control for the instrument. (see top image)
A second small icon near the lower right of the display sets only the scope display to full screen and will serve as a perfect means to get the display onto a projector or big screen for classroom or conference usage.
You can see both the tabs/icons in the first image.
ESC returns the display to the normal browser tab view. In full screen mode on this Win7 laptop there's no UI, borders or task bar....nothing but the scope display.

The scope-PC and PC-scope control/display/update latency is quite low.....blink and you've missed it and at almost real time. Monitoring link usage (WiFi) reveals normal BW usage of ~3MB/s with peaks to 5 MB/s.

Overall it looks like an excellent cheap solution for scope based demos, presentations or group usage on a big display

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on May 27, 2018, 03:09:13 am
:palm: The A stands for 'Acknowledge' of the I2C bus. There will probably an 'N' or '~A' for not-acknowledge .

That's true, so what? My crystal ball is broken therefore I am not good at guessing today. But what I know for sure is this:  the previous version of the firmware did not use 'A' for 'ACK' simply because it did not. The I2C data flow decoded by the previous version of the firmware:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=442207;image)

People who know that I2C 'ACK' is can clearly see if it is present in the last packet, I zoomed in on purpose. I don't see any 'A' or anything wrong other than missing data in the table and kind of confusingly incomplete bottom line displaying the decoded data (I think it is kind of hard to implement it right do to several reasons but doable).

Now look at this picture, the same I2C data flow is decoded by the latest firmware: the difference is big, right?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=441550;image)

And if Siglent, all of a sudden, decided to use 'A' for 'ACK' ok, fine they have to tell us about it or there will be misunderstanding. But I would not vote for that because 'ACK' will be seen most of the time and showing nothing if 'ACK' is present (the prev. firmware) tells the user as much as the added the suffix 'A' to each byte.

Just my 0.2 cents
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on May 27, 2018, 03:31:53 am
What happens if you zoom out? Is the bottom decoder line still misaligned and/or truncated?

Zooming does not fix the problem with the bottom decoder line.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on May 27, 2018, 08:26:10 am
I really like this scope but there are 2 things that I find a little strange..

1- why I can see only 4 measurements?? to me it's not enough especially on a 4ch scope. I know that I see all the measurements at the same time, but I can't see 4 measure of 2 channels at the same time for example.
2- when I hit the circle button on the left for hiding the menu why also the measures disappears? can't we use the menu buttons space for more measurements when the menu is hidden?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 27, 2018, 09:42:30 am
I really like this scope but there are 2 things that I find a little strange..

1- why I can see only 4 measurements?? to me it's not enough especially on a 4ch scope. I know that I see all the measurements at the same time, but I can't see 4 measure of 2 channels at the same time for example.
2- when I hit the circle button on the left for hiding the menu why also the measures disappears? can't we use the menu buttons space for more measurements when the menu is hidden?
In the Measure menu, select Statistics and then adjust Transparency in the Display menu for best viewing.
This way you can display many parameters without impacting on the displayed waveform/s.
The Stats list will also jump down into the Menu space at the foot of the display when menus are hidden.

Eg:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=428152)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on May 27, 2018, 03:23:35 pm
I really like this scope but there are 2 things that I find a little strange..

1- why I can see only 4 measurements?? to me it's not enough especially on a 4ch scope. I know that I see all the measurements at the same time, but I can't see 4 measure of 2 channels at the same time for example.
2- when I hit the circle button on the left for hiding the menu why also the measures disappears? can't we use the menu buttons space for more measurements when the menu is hidden?
In the Measure menu, select Statistics and then adjust Transparency in the Display menu for best viewing.
This way you can display many parameters without impacting on the displayed waveform/s.
The Stats list will also jump down into the Menu space at the foot of the display when menus are hidden.

Eg:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=428152)

in this way, only 5 measurements and relative statistic are showed. why not show the classic measurements in this window like? 4 rows, one for each channel and 5-6 selectable measurements per channels?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kerouanton on May 27, 2018, 09:12:30 pm

The SSA's are a complex instrument for the hobbyist and many users produce results they have trouble understanding but some study of this often linked KS AN gives good guidance for SSA use:
Keysight AN-150
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdf)

Thanks for the link, good document.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on May 28, 2018, 12:42:36 pm
After updating to the latest firmware and os version I can no longer connect to the remote panel/control interface.
I can connect to the instrument main web page, but when I click the Instrument Control icon a get a black page with a red error: WebSock error: [object Event]

Tested in Linux with both Firefox and Chrome (latest versions available).

Anyone experiencing the same problem?  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on May 28, 2018, 01:59:31 pm
Just noticed the information in the main web page are wrong/missing... I guess my update didn't go as expected  :o
Is there any way to force a full system factory reset? Maybe resetting all options to default could solve the problem...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on May 28, 2018, 09:18:13 pm
I'm thinking in buying this scope but, in the meantime, a couple of questions:  ;)

- Has anyone upgraded from 100Mhz to 200MHz by software?
- Is there any menu where we can insert license codes?

Anyone interested can have a look at the latest version's decrypted ZIP file: on request

sds1000b.app is an .ELF that everyone can look at. Plenty of identifiable functions  ;D .

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 28, 2018, 09:33:38 pm
I'm thinking in buying this scope but, in the meantime, a couple of questions:  ;)

- Is there any menu where we can insert license codes?

Yes, in the Utilities menu and then the Options sub menu, then Install menu where 16 digit hexadecimal permanent licensing code is installed for each option.
They are all already active for 30 free trial usages.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on May 29, 2018, 03:22:15 am
Anyone interested can have a look at the latest version's decrypted ZIP file: SDS1004X_E_6.1.25R1.ZIP (https://cld.pt/dl/download/4945cdec-ea16-493c-8603-74374e8a14fd/SDS1004X_E_6.1.25R1.zip)

"An error occurred during a connection to cld.pt. You have received an invalid certificate. Please contact the server administrator or email correspondent and give them the following information: Your certificate contains the same serial number as another certificate issued by the certificate authority. Please get a new certificate containing a unique serial number. Error code: SEC_ERROR_REUSED_ISSUER_AND_SERIAL"
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on May 29, 2018, 09:56:08 am
Yes, in the Utilities menu and then the Options sub menu, then Install menu where 16 digit hexadecimal permanent licensing code is installed for each option.
They are all already active for 30 free trial usages.

Please share a printscreen of that menu.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 29, 2018, 12:01:28 pm
"An error occurred during a connection to cld.pt. You have received an invalid certificate. Please contact the server administrator or email correspondent and give them the following information: Your certificate contains the same serial number as another certificate issued by the certificate authority. Please get a new certificate containing a unique serial number. Error code: SEC_ERROR_REUSED_ISSUER_AND_SERIAL"

I've just checked and I have no problem downloading the zip. Anyone else has the prob? The link is perfectly valid.

I've just downloaded it and everything is fine. Thank you!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Old Printer on May 29, 2018, 03:22:52 pm
Anyone interested can have a look at the latest version's decrypted ZIP file: SDS1004X_E_6.1.25R1.ZIP (https://cld.pt/dl/download/4945cdec-ea16-493c-8603-74374e8a14fd/SDS1004X_E_6.1.25R1.zip)

"An error occurred during a connection to cld.pt. You have received an invalid certificate. Please contact the server administrator or email correspondent and give them the following information: Your certificate contains the same serial number as another certificate issued by the certificate authority. Please get a new certificate containing a unique serial number. Error code: SEC_ERROR_REUSED_ISSUER_AND_SERIAL"

I just downloaded it and scanned it with Norton. Everything A OK. Thanks. Now I just need to buy the scope :)  It is my primary choice right now, but still looking as I am in no particular rush.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on May 29, 2018, 06:44:25 pm
"An error occurred during a connection to cld.pt. You have received an invalid certificate. Please contact the server administrator or email
I've just checked and I have no problem downloading the zip. Anyone else has the prob? The link is perfectly valid.

I think it is a firewall related problem.

I am pretty much sure that the bandwidth is software controlled parameters because I will not be surprised if one finds something like  "xxx_bandwidth_update_license", "xxx_app_pro_bw_if_license_match_bw", etc.

Most likely, one can also finds the references to the files
/usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0/options_awg_license.txt 
/usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0/options_wifi_license.txt 
/usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0/options_mso_license.txt

And I will not be surprised if those files also attracts someone's attention

/usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/options_awg_times.txt
usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/options_wifi_times.txt
/usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/options_mso_times.txt

There are might be also some bizarre strings in the license checking code like  "XXNEr:PRODuction:MODE"  which may imply that there is some sort of  testing mode unlocking everything and used for testing during production.

Just saying. And a question just out of curiosity.  Let's say one would want to try this unpacked firmware on the real hardware, how he would do that? As far as I know the builtin update procedure accepts only ads files.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on May 29, 2018, 08:22:02 pm
Just saying. And a question just out of curiosity.  Let's say one would want to try this unpacked firmware on the real hardware, how he would do that? As far as I know the builtin update procedure accepts only ads files.

That I'm aware of, at least, some people can repack Siglent .ADS packages. That's not an issue.

And this one is specially simple since you only have to encode a ZIP file.

But I expect that since one has telnet access to the equipment the changes could be done through telnet. At least for investigation purposes.

Just saying...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on May 29, 2018, 11:13:52 pm
I have a strange feeling  that Siglent most likely will not to behave like Rigol and tole