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Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: rf-loop on August 29, 2017, 07:59:00 am

Title: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on August 29, 2017, 07:59:00 am
ETA:
NOTE
Lot of information in this thread is or is perhaps more or less obsolete except very basic things due to several FW updates. Latest FW is:  *.1.6.1.26   (* can be 7 or 8, no need think, just do not care in this case) Release Date: 26.SEP.18
So take care about possible obsolete information. Of course there is still LOT of valid information.


ETA2 // 28.05.2019:
NOTE
Lot of information in this thread is or is perhaps more or less obsolete except very basic things due to several FW updates. Latest FW is:  *.*.6.1.33   (* do not care in this case)
So take care about possible obsolete information. Of course there is still LOT of valid information.
Specially my messages/tests related to BodePlot and FFT.



I recommend for all peoples who tell experience or do some test or find some errors or other ways think that some things need develop and then show examples with his scope.

Important: Please tell always your FW version! when you show some tests or experience with this scope

Please also keep this thread for THIS oscilloscope model functions, experience, tests etc.
For other things use other treads. Or just open new.




This is more than just only 2 extra channel add to SDS1202X-E using cheap way by interleaving same ADC for more channels. 

This 4 channel version have 2 x 2channel 1GSa/s system. Around same principle as in SDS2000X series.  When all 4 channels are simultaneously in use, 500MSa/s for every Ch.   Many fetures like SDS1202X-E but also some more. Deatails later but example bode plot with phase included.

All we know that after domestic public release and launch it takes time before export.  My personal guess is, without any silent knowledge, 1Q2018. Of course these need all independent certified laboratory inspections for proof they meet all safety etc rules in different marketing area etc.

More details about features etc later.


But, it is coming. Also we can now see what is coming.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=345845;image)
----------------------------
(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E-4ch/SDS1004X-E-fuzzy-principle-adc-memory.png)

ETA:
Later:

It is now arrived to markets.

Shared vertical adjustments. I do not like shared controls but this lounge need eat or keep starving - for price and compact size.

First time in Siglent oscilloscope it have now also Sweep Frequency Response Analyzer, SFRA aka BodePlot with phase.
This is bit more than previously launched Keysight InfiniiVision 1000X models very extremely limited performance BP.
Who can say "Scrap a toys and get real oscilloscope"  SDS1004X-E series is lot of in its price class. It can be also MSO. It can be FRA analyzer and it have 1M FFT and really fast segmented memory acquisition aka Sequence mode, up to 80000 segments, down to <2.5µs trigger interval in fast Sequence mode. It have also full speed waveform history buffer always working backround. If you see some fast change in signal and stop scope, you are always late. Not with Siglent. Look previous waveforms in buffer it can still perhaps find.

ETA: Lot of information about BodePlot is obsolete. After FW version 6.1.33 Bode Plot is Bode Plot II.
It is very highly improved (or better say: whole new design) after original first generation BodePlot.


New BP II information can find here. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1x04x-e-bodeplot-ii-(sfra)-features-and-testing-(coming)/)


BodePlot (SFRA)  Max 120MHz or limited more low depending what is used signal generator sinewave max.
Optional 1 channel 25MHz AWG (can control only using scope)
Other compatibles are Siglent SDG family. Just connect cables and BP function take full automatic control, no need even touch SDG front panel - except turn power on).


(https://www.eevblog.com/pic/SDS1000X-E-4ch/b-BodePlot-SDS1104X-E-1MHz-span-5kHz-datatable.png)
Removed old version BP image.

(https://www.eevblog.com/pic/SDS1000X-E-4ch/a-BodePlot-SDS1104X-E-1MHz-span-5kHz.png)
Sweep step 10Hz (5000 Hz span, 501 data points.)
Removed old version BP image.

(https://www.eevblog.com/pic/SDS1000X-E-4ch/c-BodePlot-SDS1104X-E-1MHz-span-500Hz-peak.png)
Sweep step 1Hz (500 Hz span, 501 data points.)
Removed old version BP image.

Of course fact that also this oscilloscope have 8 bit ADC means quite low dynamic range. This limit can see also in these images.

Bode blot can do low, medium and high horizontal plot resolution up to 501 data points and up to 3 channels simultaneously (1DUT input with 3 DUT outputs).
If compare to Keysight DSOX1102G it is like from other planet if look resolution - 10 points per decade *   |O   - nearly useless toy. Oh well, ok barely for educational playing with   one pole RC filter etc.
*Ref:  Keysight Technologies, 2017
Published in USA, January 8, 2018
5992-1965EN


SDS1000X-E  4-channel models. New Firmware FW 7.6.1.20
Now with new FW measured average max wfm/s is 118kwfm/s (peak max 128kwfm/s)
(single channel, dots, 50µs/div)

EDIT: Old compare table removed.
Reason: This was partially obsolete due to some Rigol FW bugfixes and due to Rigol offer for free Options.


ETA: (tested using FW *.*.6.1.26)
Serial decode: SDS1004X-E. Full memory length, but decode limited to 3000 bytes. Two independent decoder, both can have also different protocol. Example for UART it means total 4 data streams and of course full duplex. Decoder 1, Rx, Tx. Decoder 2, Rx, Tx.  Also it can decode memory stored waveforms, example in waveform history buffer or segmented memory. Decode can do without serial trigger.  Full decode result (data) can also save as .CSV file.

SDS1004X-E have web server so it can watch and control using web browser. (no need install anything, so it is also totally independent of computer OS.)
Update speed is ~10 times/sec using  100M LAN between scope and PC. (image updfate speed do not mean wfm/s speed. Oscilloscope itself works using it normal speed)


(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E-4ch/Serial-Decode-Example/SDS1104X-E--UART-RS232-Decode.png)
Just random nonsense example.

(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E-4ch/Serial-Decode-Example/SDS1104X-E--Serial-Decode-4ch-Run.png)
Just other random nonsense example. (69x4 messages and if take history buffer, with this settings there can be 36 these 7s records and all can decode and also full decode lists can save to USB flash (CSV)
Messages from Arduino Mega UART 0,1,2 and 3 Tx (every UART  send around 100ms interval but individual time)
Of course whole memory is decoded, not only zoomed bottom window. Siglent decode full memory and also no meaning if run or stop and same for history buffer (including of course also sequence mode).
Decoder 1: Rx, Tx 19200,8,E,1
Decoder 2: Rx, Tx   9600,8,O,1
(tested using FW *.*.6.1.26)




About noise. Because frequently in many threads some peoples rise question about some oscilloscope front end noise I add it here about SDS1104X-E.
But, it need really also understand what is noise and how it can characterize and measure so that different scopes are compared as apple to apple. It is more or less complex but least it is not simple. We can measure peak to peak noise. This is important value - exept if you read Agilent application notes aka "AN-advertisements". (but still I recommend to read these but just know that they find best settings for they scopes when they compare and other scope perhaps just bad settings or least not optimal)
 
Many times we need live with peak values - worst case values in many places when we do measurements. Even if we talk about time jitter or signal noise. If we are heating our room with electric we need RMS value.

But then, how we can compare different oscilloscopes if we look peak values. We can easy but result is mostly not apple to apple compare.  Noise is more or less random. Other scope may collect and show less amount of data and propability to get highest peaks are different. Fast cope may show more noise just because it show more data and random distribution more rare events come also more visible. It need also note that Siglemn do not decimate data for display. On the screen trace length is 700 pixel. If there is 7000 data points capture length then 10 data point is mapped to one time position on the screen. If data length is 14M then there is 20000 sample for one time position on the screen. (one pixel column on screen). This kind of things affects lot of how much data you see on the screen and more fat trace when there is noise because more highest peaks.

There is borderline good method for compare. We can compare these values but it is not what we see, so if you read only that scope noise level is measured and it is 50µV RMS - do not think you see 50 or 100uV thick trace. You see more or much more fat trace. Perhaps over 400µVpp depending your scope and scope settings. (Memory, sampling speed, wfm/s speed, amount of displayed data, Horizontal speed... )
But, mesasuring RMS make results more comparable than measuring "visual" peak to peak.

RMS is bit tricky. Because if we have very high sensitivity there exists very easy some DC offset. RMS include this DC offset - of course.  How to clean away this mean value from result. Of course IF scope have very accurate DC offset nulling then RMS is ok but often it drift some amount, specially if scope have high sensitivity.
But wait a momement: Do we really want measure RMS. No.
We need measure RMSnoise. Here we are interested only this noise power but not its mean power value what include DC..  If we can run this (offset)DC  including noise via DC block  then we can just use RMS. But we do not have this. So we need use math. Trick is here.
It is quite simple if oscilloscope have this measurement. Instead of using RMS there can use SDEV. Are you surpriced. RMS = SDEV. (No they are not at all same but in this special case when we measure random noise and mean (DC offset) is removed.)

Here is noise with (100MHz BW because model is 100MHz SDS1104X-E)
Most oscilloscope have 20M BW setting, so, with it 500M and 50M scope can somehow compare also.

500µV/div 100M BW (as can see DC offset removed noise RMS is <60µV)
500µV/div 20 BW (as can see DC offset removed noise RMS is <<30µV )
1mV/div 100M BW (as can see DC offset removed noise RMS is ~60µV )
1m/div 20M BW (as can see DC offset removed noise RMS is ~30µV )
Title: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: karkoon on August 29, 2017, 08:18:05 am
Awesome. 200 MHz and 1 G Samples. I wonder how expensive it will be. If it is similar to SDS1202XE then I am personally going to miss waiting for some more time. ??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: lukier on August 29, 2017, 08:25:16 am
Is the HDMI connector labelled SBus for the logic analyzer?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: exe on August 29, 2017, 08:31:27 am
How bode plot was made? Does it come with a built-in 30MHz signal generator?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Leon23 on August 29, 2017, 08:40:13 am
Excellent. Would be nice to compare this with the 1054Z 'bang for buck'.
Thank you for the update.

//Leon
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on August 29, 2017, 09:08:32 am
Shared vertical adjustments. I do not like shared controls but this lounge need eat or keep starving - for price and compact size.
I too was hoping for individual controls....oh well it's not like Siglent don't know how to multiplex them.... SDS3000/WS3000.

Translated:
Channel bandwidth: 70MHz, 100MHz, 200MHz
The 2-channel series uses a 1GSa / s ADC chip, 4-channel series using two 1GSa / s ADC chip, the channel is fully open, the sampling rate of each channel 500MSa / s, channel interleaving sampling rate 1GSa / s
New generation of SPO technology
Waveform capture rate of 100,000 frames per second (normal mode); 400,000 frames per second (Sequence mode)
    Supports 256 levels of waveform brightness and color temperature display
    Storage depth of 14Mpts
    Digital triggering system
 Smart triggering: Edge, Slope, Pulse width, Window, Interval, Dropout, Pattern,
 Serial bus triggers and decodes, supports protocol IIC, SPI, UART / RS232, CAN, LIN
 Video triggered to support HDTV
 Excellent background noise, voltage range down to 500?V / div
 10 one-button shortcuts to support Auto Setup, Default, Cursors, Measure, Roll, History, Persist, Clear Sweeps, Math and Print
 Sequential, which maximizes the storage depth by 80,000 segments, capturing eligible events with very small dead time, based on the user-set trigger conditions
 Historical mode, up to 80,000 frames can be recorded
 38 kinds of automatic measurement functions, support measurement statistics, Zoom measurement, Gating measurement, Math measurement, History measurement, Ref measurement
 1M point FFT operation
 14M full sampling point measurement and operation, through the coprocessor to complete, bring a very fast user experience
 Waveform function (FFT, add, subtract, multiply, divide, integral, derivative, square root)
 User-defined key Default parameter to achieve the individual requirements of the Default key
 Secure erase function, delete all operating records and user data on the machine, and apply to industries with high safety
 High-speed Pass / Fail function for hardware implementation
 Amplitude-frequency characteristics and phase-frequency characteristics of the scan, drawing the Bode diagram (4-channel series support)
 Event search and navigation (4-channel series support)
 USB Arbitrary Waveform Generator Module (4-Channel Series Support, Options)
 USB WIFI adapter (4-channel series support, option)
 7-inch TFT-LCD display with a resolution of 800 * 480
 Rich interface: USB Host, USB Device (USBTMC), LAN (VXI-11), Pass / Fail, Trigger Out
 Supports rich SCPI remote control commands
 Web pages for remote control
 Multi-language display and embedded online help


Is the HDMI connector labelled SBus for the logic analyzer?
Yep. 16 digital channels.
How bode plot was made? Does it come with a built-in 30MHz signal generator?
25 MHz (option)

As when the 1202X-E was about to be released all the guessing in the world could not have imagined that a 200 MHz unit was the only one released to western markets so I reckon we'll have to wait and see what comes as part of the package and what is optioned.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on August 29, 2017, 09:24:05 am
If think to compare with Zbox. Why?  What information we get if we compare so different class of things, even if they both have 4 channels. Do we compare all vehicles with 4 wheels.

Here is chinese language data sheet. (https://siglent.fi/data/SDS1000X-E/SDS1--4X-E/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-C03A.pdf)


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on August 29, 2017, 09:26:43 am
Dual window zoom.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=345868;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: StillTrying on August 29, 2017, 10:48:02 am
Perhaps the BW is even better on DC10M X10.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on August 29, 2017, 05:07:48 pm
"USB Arbitrary Waveform Generator Module" hmm...
Would be nice if it can be paired with SDG2000X instead ;) Or even SDG6000X!
Also maybe still time to fix typo on front panel: 1Ga/s => 1GSa/s
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Diabolo on August 29, 2017, 06:15:55 pm
Hello,

http://www.siglent.com/prodcut-db.aspx?id=1529&tid=1&T=2 (http://www.siglent.com/prodcut-db.aspx?id=1529&tid=1&T=2)

Regards,
Diabolo
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on August 29, 2017, 07:08:15 pm
"USB Arbitrary Waveform Generator Module" hmm...
Would be nice if it can be paired with SDG2000X instead ;) Or even SDG6000X!
This is the only image I could find of it in use but it didn't copy well.  ::)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=345994;image)

More translated:
4 channel models support more features, including: event search and navigation functions, fast positioning to the defined event; support baud map function; support USB arbitrary waveform generator module (optional), single channel, 25MHz; support USB WIFI adapter access to the wireless LAN (optional); provide Web pages, without the need to install the driver and client software to the remote management of the instrument.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: DaYooper on August 29, 2017, 08:48:22 pm
Hello,

http://www.siglent.com/prodcut-db.aspx?id=1529&tid=1&T=2 (http://www.siglent.com/prodcut-db.aspx?id=1529&tid=1&T=2)

Regards,
Diabolo

Hmmmm......  ($379/?6,480)*?8,480 = $496.  MSRP of $499 maybe.  That would be a killer price.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on August 30, 2017, 07:35:31 am
"USB Arbitrary Waveform Generator Module" hmm...
Would be nice if it can be paired with SDG2000X instead ;) Or even SDG6000X!
Also maybe still time to fix typo on front panel: 1Ga/s => 1GSa/s

I think it will be possible to control an external AWG device, you can see at page 6 of the data sheet:

"The SDS1000X-E can control the USB Arbitrary Waveform Generator module or control an independent AWG device, perform amplitude-frequency and phase-frequency sweeps, display the results in a baud or list, and export the scan data"
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on August 30, 2017, 07:39:18 am
"USB Arbitrary Waveform Generator Module" hmm...
Would be nice if it can be paired with SDG2000X instead ;) Or even SDG6000X!
This is the only image I could find of it in use but it didn't copy well.  ::)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=345994)

More translated:
4 channel models support more features, including: event search and navigation functions, fast positioning to the defined event; support baud map function; support USB arbitrary waveform generator module (optional), single channel, 25MHz; support USB WIFI adapter access to the wireless LAN (optional); provide Web pages, without the need to install the driver and client software to the remote management of the instrument.

here is a better image :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on August 30, 2017, 07:57:26 am
"The SDS1000X-E can control the USB Arbitrary Waveform Generator module or control an independent AWG device, perform amplitude-frequency and phase-frequency sweeps, display the results in a baud or list, and export the scan data"

Seems Hydraulic Press Channel dude must deal with it fast, if it indeed can control SDG*00X then very dangerous and may attack competition at any time!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: exe on August 30, 2017, 08:05:42 am
New killerscope in town? :) If it is really well below $1k...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: pascal_sweden on August 30, 2017, 04:56:52 pm
When this scope is launched in Europe, the Rigol DS1054Z will be reaching the end of its glory days :)

Most likely Rigol is preparing for a similar new kid on the block however =)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on August 30, 2017, 05:31:42 pm
When this scope is launched in Europe, the Rigol DS1054Z will be reaching the end of its glory days :)
I think so too but then again I have a feeling Rigol sold many more of the DS1054Z than Siglent sold scopes in total so Rigol must have pretty deep pockets by now. If Rigol comes up with a scope based on an ASIC like Keysight then the tables may turn quickly in favor of Rigol.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on August 30, 2017, 05:35:51 pm
When this scope is launched in Europe, the Rigol DS1054Z will be reaching the end of its glory days :)

No device can be champ forever.  :-//

There's only six months left to hate it, all the Rigol haters had better go over to the DS1054Z thread and do some extra hating.  :popcorn:

Most likely Rigol is preparing for a similar new kid on the block however =)

They haven't released any new models for ages. I wonder why...?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on August 30, 2017, 05:55:06 pm
There's only six months left to hate it, all the Rigol haters had better go over to the DS1054Z thread and do some extra hating.

Cheer up, I loved the looks of it :-* Maybe can mate Z + X-E and get something that cheap Tek should be (but is not*). Smart and sharp looks :-+
*+-
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on August 30, 2017, 06:09:26 pm
Rigol haven't released any new models for ages. I wonder why...?

Oh, wait, I remember why! They've been busy making an entirely new chipset (https://www.rigolna.com/news/2017/00001735/).

"RIGOL will formally announce our first products utilizing the Phoenix Chipset before the end of 2017 with initial customer shipments planned in Q4 2017."
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on August 30, 2017, 06:15:09 pm
Oh, wait, I remember why! They've been busy making an entirely new chipset (https://www.rigolna.com/news/2017/00001735/).

...for 1+ GHz scopes... "Ultravision II will transform the customer value proposition in the 1-4GHz oscilloscope market." So this is why Z cant tell square wave from derivative? Rigol all too busy chasing top dollar - hobbyists can wait...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on August 30, 2017, 09:18:05 pm
Oh, wait, I remember why! They've been busy making an entirely new chipset (https://www.rigolna.com/news/2017/00001735/).

...for 1+ GHz scopes... "Ultravision II will transform the customer value proposition in the 1-4GHz oscilloscope market." So this is why Z cant tell square wave from derivative? Rigol all too busy chasing top dollar - hobbyists can wait...
If that is true then it seems Rigol is still chasing the dreams Siglent already has given up on.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on August 30, 2017, 09:24:41 pm
Oh, wait, I remember why! They've been busy making an entirely new chipset (https://www.rigolna.com/news/2017/00001735/).

...for 1+ GHz scopes... "Ultravision II will transform the customer value proposition in the 1-4GHz oscilloscope market." So this is why Z cant tell square wave from derivative? Rigol all too busy chasing top dollar - hobbyists can wait...
If that is true then it seems Rigol is still chasing the dreams Siglent already has given up on.
How could you know ?  :-//
 :-X
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on August 30, 2017, 09:41:30 pm
Oh, wait, I remember why! They've been busy making an entirely new chipset (https://www.rigolna.com/news/2017/00001735/).

...for 1+ GHz scopes... "Ultravision II will transform the customer value proposition in the 1-4GHz oscilloscope market." So this is why Z cant tell square wave from derivative? Rigol all too busy chasing top dollar - hobbyists can wait...
If that is true then it seems Rigol is still chasing the dreams Siglent already has given up on.
How could you know ?  :-//
 :-X
Simple: Siglent hasn't introduced a new scope with a >=300MHz bandwidth in years. Also the most recent additions to the line-up are clearly aimed at the low cost hobbyist market by using aggressive pricing and customers as beta testers.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on August 31, 2017, 02:46:33 am
Oh, wait, I remember why! They've been busy making an entirely new chipset (https://www.rigolna.com/news/2017/00001735/).

...for 1+ GHz scopes... "Ultravision II will transform the customer value proposition in the 1-4GHz oscilloscope market." So this is why Z cant tell square wave from derivative? Rigol all too busy chasing top dollar - hobbyists can wait...
If that is true then it seems Rigol is still chasing the dreams Siglent already has given up on.
How could you know ?  :-//
 :-X
Simple: Siglent hasn't introduced a new scope with a >=300MHz bandwidth in years.
So ? You make out like it's not considered or possibly under development.
I ask again, how could you know.......you don't. Period.

Quote
Also the most recent additions to the line-up are clearly aimed at the low cost hobbyist market
2 models that aren't:
SSA3000X
SDG6000X

Quote
using aggressive pricing

I'm really sorry that your GW is overpriced.  :P

Quote
customers as beta testers.
Didn't you report some bugs to GW ?
Edit. And Misig ?

Why hello beta tester.  :-DD
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on August 31, 2017, 06:13:05 am
The GW Instek GDS-2204E had two or three minor bugs which where solved within weeks. The dissaster with the Siglent SDS2000 made me want to verify all functions before committing to buying it. Since then a handfull of minor bugs got fixed (exotic stuff like things going wrong if there is a space in a free math expression send to the scope using an SCPI command). I got the MicSig TO1104 specifically for a review where they installed a beta version of the decoding, so yes that deserved some remarks. Both these scopes don't have a bug list as long as a typical Siglent unit after it has been released and no trivial bugs which should discovered by the factory's testers.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on September 24, 2017, 08:54:35 am
"USB Arbitrary Waveform Generator Module" hmm...
Would be nice if it can be paired with SDG2000X instead ;) Or even SDG6000X
It can.
From the datasheet for Bode plot mode:
"control an independent SIGLENT SDG instrument"

It has 2, yes 2 USB A sockets, one front and another rear along with the standard USB Device (USB -TMC).

(http://www.siglent.com/Chinese_website2014/picture/SDS1000X-E/21.png)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 27, 2017, 12:18:17 am
Should this be capable to capture waveforms and send these to any AWG, or just Siglent ones? I'm not sure how standardized these protocols are.

Has anyone found any review or footage of the domestic release? It's been out for about a month now, but can find exactly nothing on it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: stj on September 27, 2017, 01:51:46 am
i am disapointed,   :(
i was hoping to see a low end scope with a monitor output on the back. (VGA / DVI - not something requiring an interface!)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 27, 2017, 02:34:40 am
i am disapointed,   :(
i was hoping to see a low end scope with a monitor output on the back. (VGA / DVI - not something requiring an interface!)
HDMI is a pretty good alternative to DVI.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on September 27, 2017, 03:04:39 am
Should this be capable to capture waveforms and send these to any AWG, or just Siglent ones? I'm not sure how standardized these protocols are.
They're not standardised. This unit as mentioned above can control the optional USB AWG module or another Siglent standalone AWG from within the DSO's UI. This is primarily for use with the Bode plot feature however the AWG can be controlled for other use just like an inbuilt AWG could/would be.

Other than data that can be gleaned from the datasheet most of us that have these units are bound by NDA.  :-X
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: stj on September 27, 2017, 04:13:03 am
i am disapointed,   :(
i was hoping to see a low end scope with a monitor output on the back. (VGA / DVI - not something requiring an interface!)
HDMI is a pretty good alternative to DVI.

 :-DD

HDMI is DVI-D signals on a cheap shitty connector with added digital audio and a license fee!!!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on September 27, 2017, 08:43:44 am
Think physical display interface is not cost-effective if there is LAN port that could be used to serve screen as well?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: JanJansen on September 27, 2017, 01:56:20 pm
Be aware : dont buy domestic market stuff in China,
the quality is inferior, you might already know that.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: stj on September 27, 2017, 06:20:48 pm
Think physical display interface is not cost-effective if there is LAN port that could be used to serve screen as well?

i seriously doubt the network can be used to mirror the screen in realtime.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on September 27, 2017, 06:49:56 pm
The 4 channel models will have WiFi and Webserver. This way you can replicate and command the unit from a PC using the browser. and the IP address of the unit. Not bad for a entry level unit.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: stj on September 27, 2017, 07:10:35 pm
not for me, i dont want RF emissions on my workbench.
what asshole thought that up?

i have sensitive circuits running out of the housing with the shielding removed - i dont want a damned transmitter in the room!!
 :palm:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 27, 2017, 07:12:12 pm
:-DD

HDMI is DVI-D signals on a cheap shitty connector with added digital audio and a license fee!!!
The connector has more than one function, which probably dictated the connector choice. Other than that, it's just DVI with some stuff added, so there isn't much to fault.

The 4 channel models will have WiFi and Webserver. This way you can replicate and command the unit from a PC using the browser. and the IP address of the unit. Not bad for a entry level unit.
That sounds horrible. Unless there is fast and effective support for any bugs and security flaws found for the next 10-15 years, which there inevitably won't be, it sounds like a huge security liability. Companies just don't seem to learn that hooking things up to the internet is the easy part. It's effectively supporting it and making sure things are safe that's the hard part. Having a botnet running on your oscilloscope isn't much fun, having it being an entry point for further compromise is even worse.

You know what they say: the "S" in IoT stands for security.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on September 27, 2017, 07:12:43 pm
not for me, i dont want RF emissions on my workbench.
what asshole thought that up?

i have sensitive circuits running out of the housing with the shielding removed - i dont want a damned transmitter in the room!!
 :palm:
Well, you can still use the LAN cable for the same application
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on September 27, 2017, 07:16:54 pm
The 4 channel models will have WiFi and Webserver. This way you can replicate and command the unit from a PC using the browser. and the IP address of the unit. Not bad for a entry level unit.
That sounds horrible. Unless there is fast and effective support for any bugs and security flaws found for the next 10-15 years, which there inevitably won't be, it sounds like a huge security liability. Companies just don't seem to learn that hooking things up to the internet is the easy part. It's effectively supporting it and making sure things are safe that's the hard part. Having a botnet running on your oscilloscope isn't much fun, having it being an entry point for further compromise is even worse.

You know what they say: the "S" in IoT stands for security.
[/quote]
We will test the device as soon as we get them (possibly end of the year).
To be honest we have several companies asking for webserver compatibility, so we have to think that part of the market is looking for it.
However we can only comment about the workability after we test them.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on September 27, 2017, 07:22:45 pm
not for me, i dont want RF emissions on my workbench.
what asshole thought that up?

i have sensitive circuits running out of the housing with the shielding removed - i dont want a damned transmitter in the room!!
 :palm:
Fine, then turn it OFF.  :P
It's a USB dongle, not inbuilt and it's optional. The functionality is inbuilt into the UI.

Of course it won't suit everybody, it's just another form of connectivity to add to USB and LAN for the inbuilt web server.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 27, 2017, 07:28:24 pm
We will test the device as soon as we get them (possibly end of the year).
To be honest we have several companies asking for webserver compatibility, so we have to think that part of the market is looking for it.
However we can only comment about the workability after we test them.
Again, people asking for webserver compatibility are asking for it being done in a secure fashion. Unfortunately, recent history tells us that this is rarely the case. The security of networked devices is generally atrocious and no more than an afterthought. Properly securing and supporting networked devices is a serious, long term investment very few companies are able or willing to take. Even companies who have networking as a core business run afoul of this regularly. Not too long ago, a huge botnet running on IP camaras and was uncovered. Putting something on the internet is a serious thing that's underestimated by pretty much everyone.

Workability is only of concern after it's actually safe.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on September 27, 2017, 07:56:18 pm
Putting something on the internet is a serious thing that's underestimated by pretty much everyone.

Nowdays people seem to forget subtle meaning behind term LAN:
Local Area Network.
Just use local physically isolated network for lab devices.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 27, 2017, 08:51:57 pm
Nowdays people seem to forget subtle meaning behind term LAN:
Local Area Network.
Just use local physically isolated network for lab devices.
Calling it LAN instead of ethernet does not absolve the manufacturer from its responsibilities regarding security, nor does my ability to isolate networks.

We're not even talking about the thing apparently having a webserver on board.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: technogeeky on September 27, 2017, 09:32:06 pm
 :-DD

the racism and comments about the security of optional features that nobody in this thread could have possibly evaluated

 :-DD
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 27, 2017, 09:53:06 pm
:-DD

the racism and comments about the security of optional features that nobody in this thread could have possibly evaluated

 :-DD
Racism? What racism? That doesn't seem to make sense.

While probably technically true that the security features have not been evaluated, it also pretty much fully irrelevant. Networked devices have a terrible track record when it comes to network security and there is no reason this device would be different. I will eat my words when Siglent announces 15, 10 or even 5 years of regular security updates for it, but I don't think anyone will be holding his breath. Unless the law starts dictating that the software and associated updates are as much part of a device as the hardware is, the situation is unlikely to improve.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on September 27, 2017, 10:08:30 pm
A piece of test equipment has no place on an insecure network so security isn't necessary. Worse, it will probably in the way of regular use anyway. Imagine having to access a scope using SSH from a piece of software  :scared: The overhead alone is going to be a problem and how are lab technicians going to troubleshoot network problems? So in reality test equipment is always on local networks which are not accessible from the outside.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 27, 2017, 10:19:57 pm
A piece of test equipment has no place on an insecure network so security isn't necessary. Worse, it will probably in the way of regular use anyway. Imagine having to access a scope using SSH from a piece of software  :scared: The overhead alone is going to be a problem and how are lab technicians going to troubleshoot network problems? So in reality test equipment is always on local networks which are not accessible from the outside.
You're not understanding the problem. This type of hardware may very well make the network insecure, rather than it being put on an insecure network. We'll have to see how that effectively works out, but history isn't painting a pretty picture. Also, let's not be naive. These scopes will at least in part end up in places with little to no IT support. They shouldn't be a risk to the local network, period. That means it needs properly developed and tested software, which gets updated on a regular basis. It will be interesting to see if and how Siglent deals with that part.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: technogeeky on September 27, 2017, 10:32:20 pm
:-DD

the racism and comments about the security of optional features that nobody in this thread could have possibly evaluated

 :-DD
Racism? What racism? That doesn't seem to make sense.

While probably technically true that the security features have not been evaluated, it also pretty much fully irrelevant. Networked devices have a terrible track record when it comes to network security and there is no reason this device would be different. I will eat my words when Siglent announces 15, 10 or even 5 years of regular security updates for it, but I don't think anyone will be holding his breath. Unless the law starts dictating that the software and associated updates are as much part of a device as the hardware is, the situation is unlikely to improve.

The racism quote wasn't about you, don't worry.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rstofer on September 27, 2017, 10:54:22 pm
A piece of test equipment has no place on an insecure network so security isn't necessary. Worse, it will probably in the way of regular use anyway. Imagine having to access a scope using SSH from a piece of software  :scared: The overhead alone is going to be a problem and how are lab technicians going to troubleshoot network problems? So in reality test equipment is always on local networks which are not accessible from the outside.
You're not understanding the problem. This type of hardware may very well make the network insecure, rather than it being put on an insecure network. We'll have to see how that effectively works out, but history isn't painting a pretty picture. Also, let's not be naive. These scopes will at least in part end up in places with little to no IT support. They shouldn't be a risk to the local network, period. That means it needs properly developed and tested software, which gets updated on a regular basis. It will be interesting to see if and how Siglent deals with that part.

Well, let's just watch for a few years and see what happens.

I can't figure out WHY I would poke a hole in my firewall to allow access from the Internet.  I might even create a subnet for testing and make sure the NAT feature doesn't translate it.

Or, more likely, I won't even bother to connect the network cable.  As a simple user, I see no utility in networking test equipment.  It's not like I need automation.

Others will have to deal with this security problem as they see fit.  I have my solution!  Don't plug in the cable...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on September 28, 2017, 06:09:48 am
A piece of test equipment has no place on an insecure network so security isn't necessary. Worse, it will probably in the way of regular use anyway. Imagine having to access a scope using SSH from a piece of software  :scared: The overhead alone is going to be a problem and how are lab technicians going to troubleshoot network problems? So in reality test equipment is always on local networks which are not accessible from the outside.
You're not understanding the problem. This type of hardware may very well make the network insecure, rather than it being put on an insecure network. We'll have to see how that effectively works out, but history isn't painting a pretty picture. Also, let's not be naive. These scopes will at least in part end up in places with little to no IT support. They shouldn't be a risk to the local network, period.
And how exactly does a piece of test equipment becomes a risk to the network? I don't see this happening in any realistic scenario unless it is 'infected' at the factory.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 28, 2017, 07:11:12 am
And how exactly does a piece of test equipment becomes a risk to the network? I don't see this happening in any realistic scenario unless it is 'infected' at the factory.
Why do you think that? It just needs a vulnerability like many simple networked devices have, in no small part because these devices are rarely conceived with security in mind. The device gets compromised through wifi, the network itself or USB. After an attacker gains a foothold, he can work to compromise the rest of the network. Once you're in, traversing the network is a lot easier. It also allows for more complex attacks, where a temporary compromise elsewhere gets turned into a permanent foothold within the network. This isn't theoretical either, but has become a real life everyday threat.

Quote
Or, as John Pironti, president of IP Architects puts it, "A lot of adversaries, and a lot of people who are looking at this problem, aren't looking at it as 'let me go and attack your toaster': they're looking at it as 'let me attack your toaster to use it as a way to get into the rest of your network'."

http://www.zdnet.com/article/the-rise-of-iot-hacking-new-dangers-new-solutions/ (http://www.zdnet.com/article/the-rise-of-iot-hacking-new-dangers-new-solutions/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Gabri74 on September 28, 2017, 07:40:44 am
That sounds horrible. Unless there is fast and effective support for any bugs and security flaws found for the next 10-15 years, which there inevitably won't be, it sounds like a huge security liability. Companies just don't seem to learn that hooking things up to the internet is the easy part. It's effectively supporting it and making sure things are safe that's the hard part. Having a botnet running on your oscilloscope isn't much fun, having it being an entry point for further compromise is even worse.

You know what they say: the "S" in IoT stands for security.

Been at a client laboratory recently... several Lecroy top-notch scopes (the ones you are scared to death to stumble on the probes and have to sell your home to pay it back)... Windows 7.... connected to the Company Windows Domain.... about 15 minutes (not kidding!) to boot up... antivirus installed.....   man.... the pain...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on September 28, 2017, 07:43:49 am
It might seem Mr Scram might not be happy with any equipment that offers any kind of remote connectivity.  :-//
USB, LAN, WiFi are all here to stay so the only grace is that Siglent run Linux OS on their gear.

From the Cn website, a look at the web server, DSO control from PC browser:

(http://www.siglent.com/Chinese_website2014/picture/SDS1000X-E/20.png)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on September 28, 2017, 07:56:40 am
Having a WiFi interface is not inherently worse than having an Ethernet interface, which nowadays we consider a given.

There are risks with any software that can be accessed through a network and, indeed, models will be eventually phased out, turning them into sitting ducks. Just have a look at all the perfectly functional gear out there based on Windows. I dare you to connect and old Agilent or LeCroy oscilloscope, based on Windows, to a more or less open university network. But more than a risk to the whole network it's a risk to the instrument itself. If the software gets corrupted you might end up with an expensive door stop.

There has been a lot of publicity about the risks of the Internet of Things, but the risk itself depends on the application. Right now the worst culprits, for example, are web accessible cameras that have become bots used in denial of service attacks. That is indeed a risk to your network because it can saturate your Internet connection. And of course a hacked camera can be used as an entry point to explore your whole network and look for other targets.

But web cameras and, in general, sensors, are generally conceived so that you will access them from a remote location. The user of such a device will often define a NAT mapping in order to be able to access a builtin web server from a remote location. And that is certainly a security risk. There have been serious incidents and there will be lots more.

However, is this a likely scenario with a device such an oscilloscope? I don't think so. Of course it can be convenient to monitor an experiment from home. But I don't think it will be such a frequent usage. So, the risk is not the same.

Thanks to the scarcity of IPv4 addresses most Internet connections are configured with NAT (network address translation) which turns the router into a de facto firewall. None of the devices you plug inside your network can be accessed from the outside unless you explicitly set up a mapping in your router. With IPv6 and no NAT this will change radically and routers will need an explicit firewall functionality. Fortunately IPv6 address spaces are so large, it will be impractical to scan address ranges in order to discover vulnerable devices. I've been using IPv6 at home for a year now and I have set up a packet capture for the parts of my address space I am not using (a /48 network). I am still to see a single packet, let alone a scan, directed to my network, while the IPv4 addresses get hit several times per hour.

So, is it worse with WiFi? I don't think so. Moreover, WiFi access points make it easier to segment your network than network switches. On most you can create several SSIDs and you don´t need to bother with assigning ports one by one to different VLANs (which can be a bothersome chore in a network switch). Also you can configure many access points so that wireless users can't contact each other, reducing the probability of "propagation" of an "infection" from one device to another.

In short: what I would suggest to manufacturers is to provide a way to disable all forms of connectivity in the instruments. Not just WiFi, but Ethernet and/or USB. That will be useful in student labs where you want to minimize risks. Those "security" preferences should be protected by some sort of admin password, so that a user won't be able to use the network ports of an instrument without permission.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on September 28, 2017, 08:11:01 am
Having a WiFi interface is not inherently worse than having an Ethernet interface, which nowadays we consider a given.

:clap:
https://www.hacker9.com/hack-public-wifi-hotspots-cracking-passwords.html (https://www.hacker9.com/hack-public-wifi-hotspots-cracking-passwords.html)

Overall, anytime you feel that made network (esp. wireless) or installation secure just watch some
https://www.youtube.com/user/DEFCONConference (https://www.youtube.com/user/DEFCONConference)
videos, feeling will pass ::)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on September 28, 2017, 08:22:08 am
Having a WiFi interface is not inherently worse than having an Ethernet interface, which nowadays we consider a given.

:clap:
https://www.hacker9.com/hack-public-wifi-hotspots-cracking-passwords.html (https://www.hacker9.com/hack-public-wifi-hotspots-cracking-passwords.html)

Overall, anytime you feel that made network (esp. wireless) or installation secure just watch some
https://www.youtube.com/user/DEFCONConference (https://www.youtube.com/user/DEFCONConference)
videos, feeling will pass ::)
Again, mixing risks.

The worst "IoT" security risks come from random abuse by people who could be at any distance. I am talking about the classical abuses of web based cameras, etc. WiFi won't make a difference here.

Regarding WPA2 (the rest of the WiFi encryption protocols are insecure) you need a lot of resources to crack a good WiFi password. Of course, any encryption system is inherently vulnerable to brute force attacks or even random luck. But cracking a good WPA2 password is impractical. WiFi networks are being abused largely thanks to WEP and WPS.

Nevertheless, what are we talking about? I said that having a wireless interface in an oscilloscope is not inherently worse than having an Ethernet interface. Or is it worse to have it in your oscilloscope than having it in a computer/tablet/phone?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on September 28, 2017, 08:31:10 am
Nevertheless, what are we talking about? I said that having a wireless interface in an oscilloscope is not inherently worse than having an Ethernet interface. Or is it worse to have it in your oscilloscope than having it in a computer/tablet/phone?

It actually is worse. Because if get enabled for any reason (user error, firmware bug, (timed) firmware exploit, ...) it will be there to probe. However disconnected LAN cable is just that - disconnected cable and will require physical security breach to compromise.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 28, 2017, 08:32:10 am
It might seem Mr Scram might not be happy with any equipment that offers any kind of remote connectivity.  :-//
USB, LAN, WiFi are all here to stay so the only grace is that Siglent run Linux OS on their gear.

From the Cn website, a look at the web server, DSO control from PC browser:

(http://www.siglent.com/Chinese_website2014/picture/SDS1000X-E/20.png)
Let's not be like that. We both know that networking capabilities get literally put in everything and the kitchen sink nowadays and that security is almost all cases is, at best, an afterthought. It's only fair to be wary in this case, as even big brand names often get it wrong and in ways that cause serious problems. Add to that the conclusion that the more well known Chinese test gear manufacturers don't have a stellar record when it comes to firmware updates.

If Siglent shows a commitment to providing properly developed and well maintained software, I certainly wouldn't mind as much. Communicating how long the device will be supported wouldn't hurt either. That's all.

Again, mixing risks.

The worst "IoT" security risks come from random abuse by people who could be at any distance. I am talking about the classical abuses of web based cameras, etc. WiFi won't make a difference here.

Regarding WPA2 (the rest of the WiFi encryption protocols are insecure) you need a lot of resources to crack a good WiFi password. Of course, any encryption system is inherently vulnerable to brute force attacks or even random luck. But cracking a good WPA2 password is impractical. WiFi networks are being abused largely thanks to WEP and WPS.

Nevertheless, what are we talking about? I said that having a wireless interface in an oscilloscope is not inherently worse than having an Ethernet interface. Or is it worse to have it in your oscilloscope than having it in a computer/tablet/phone?
Computer software certainly is much better maintained than that of simpler networked devices. Phone software sometimes is, although a lot of manufacturers are just as bad as the IoT folks. I've seen all phone support being dropped within 6 months of release, which meant users were vulnerable to known issues within a year of purchase without recourse.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on September 28, 2017, 08:36:18 am
I said that having a wireless interface in an oscilloscope is not inherently worse than having an Ethernet interface. Or is it worse to have it in your oscilloscope than having it in a computer/tablet/phone?
Exactly, no worse than any other device.
For this unit both LAN and WiFi can be enabled/disabled OR unplugged.

Bit different to a USB scope where you have to have connectivity to another device in order just to use it.  ::)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on September 28, 2017, 08:36:45 am
Nevertheless, what are we talking about? I said that having a wireless interface in an oscilloscope is not inherently worse than having an Ethernet interface. Or is it worse to have it in your oscilloscope than having it in a computer/tablet/phone?

It actually is worse. Because if get enabled for any reason (user error, firmware bug, (timed) firmware exploit, ...) it will be there to probe. However disconnected LAN cable is just that - disconnected cable and will require physical security breach to compromise.
That's true. Anyway in this particular case it's a USB dongle that you can disconnect as well.

And, again, wireless based attacks are necessarily local in scope and risky. More and more equipment manufacturers are incorporating security measures that can promptly detect such an attack attempt, which makes it risky.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on September 28, 2017, 08:38:04 am
Bit different to a USB scope where you have to have connectivity to another device in order just to use it.  ::)
Yes, a Windows based computer, which is extremely unlikely to be compromised with at least a piece of remotely controlled malware.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 28, 2017, 08:52:11 am
That's true. Anyway in this particular case it's a USB dongle that you can disconnect as well.

And, again, wireless based attacks are necessarily local in scope and risky. More and more equipment manufacturers are incorporating security measures that can promptly detect such an attack attempt, which makes it risky.
I gather the device will retain the network key, even when not connected over wifi.

In any case, this has turned into a much larger discussion than intended. Let's just say that a lot of us hope that manufacturers take networking security serious, instead of it being an afterthought. Siglent can show us how things should be done here.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on September 28, 2017, 09:00:35 am
In any case, this has turned into a much larger discussion than intended. Let's just say that a lot of us hope that manufacturers take networking security serious, instead of it being an afterthought. Siglent can show us how things should be done here.
I'm afraid that won't happen. Security is very hard. And their priority will be to offer functionality.

Have you tried connecting any instrument to a network and feeding it nonsense? (Parameters out of range, strings that are too long, etc?). You are likely to make them crash. And that means there's a potential buffer overflow vulnerability there waiting to be abused.

There is a fundamental problem in the way we program and the architecture of our processors. Unless those problems are really addressed (and that's an extremely hard problem to tackle) even the best designed software will have vulnerabilities, period.

Anyway, for equipment not designed to be serving on the Internet, intended instead to be connected to small, restricted networks, the risk is not so large. And the local wireless attacks discussed by MrW0lf's are likely to be experienced only by high value targets, if any.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on September 28, 2017, 09:17:08 am
That's true. Anyway in this particular case it's a USB dongle that you can disconnect as well.

And, again, wireless based attacks are necessarily local in scope and risky. More and more equipment manufacturers are incorporating security measures that can promptly detect such an attack attempt, which makes it risky.
I gather the device will retain the network key, even when not connected over wifi.
"Saving" can be optional.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 28, 2017, 09:32:17 am
I'm afraid that won't happen. Security is very hard. And their priority will be to offer functionality.

Have you tried connecting any instrument to a network and feeding it nonsense? (Parameters out of range, strings that are too long, etc?). You are likely to make them crash. And that means there's a potential buffer overflow vulnerability there waiting to be abused.

There is a fundamental problem in the way we program and the architecture of our processors. Unless those problems are really addressed (and that's an extremely hard problem to tackle) even the best designed software will have vulnerabilities, period.

Anyway, for equipment not designed to be serving on the Internet, intended instead to be connected to small, restricted networks, the risk is not so large. And the local wireless attacks discussed by MrW0lf's are likely to be experienced only by high value targets, if any.
Security is very hard to do right and you are probably right about the priorities here, which is why I'm wary and initially started the discussion. Software development isn't mature at all either, which leads to all sorts of problems, as you state correctly.

About attacks happening only to high value targets I unfortunately have to disagree. Most people think they, their hardware or their information is not valuable enough, but experience has taught us that almost everyone has something an attacker can perceive as valuable. Just the fact that a device could be in a test lab could make it a very interesting target. We've also already seen botnets comprised of IP camera's. In that case, even the feeble calculative horsepower of a tiny chip was considered a valuable enough target. In one infamous case, simply having a three letter Twitter handle was enough.

Of course, we're not even talking about issues like test results being compromised or even manipulated. There could be severe liability consequences.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on September 28, 2017, 09:39:45 am
About attacks happening only to high value targets I unfortunately have to disagree. Most people think they, their hardware or their information is not valuable enough, but experience has taught us that almost everyone has something an attacker can perceive as valuable. Just the fact that a device could be in a test lab could make it a very interesting target. We've also already seen botnets comprised of IP camera's. In that case, even the feeble calculative horsepower of a tiny chip was considered a valuable enough target. In one infamous case, simply having a three letter Twitter handle was enough.
I said that the kind of local scope attacks such as sophisticated wireless network attacks (which need a lot of resources to crack passwords) are more likely to be experienced by high value targets.

Random, indiscriminated attacks are a completely different story. People suffer this attacks regardless of the local network connection medium, attackers can be anywhere in the world and often the goal of the miscreants is to obtain resources for other attacks (for example, zombies for DDoS).

The devil is in the details.

Quote
Of course, we're not even talking about issues like test results being compromised or even manipulated. There could be severe liability consequences.
Indeed, just imagine a multimeter hacked so that it will display voltages higher than, say, 25 V as low voltage noise. It could cost actual lives.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on September 28, 2017, 09:52:46 am
I said that the kind of local scope attacks such as sophisticated wireless network attacks (which need a lot of resources to crack passwords) are more likely to be experienced by high value targets.

For bored punk every WiFi he can see in flat complex is high value target :-DD

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: exe on September 28, 2017, 11:31:06 am
I'd say protect your equipment as you never know all the possible scenarios of attacks. There might be a vulnerability (in e.g. Linux core) common to several classes of devices. And the scope can be infected "along the way"*. I can't evaluate the probability of this (perhaps, nobody can), but why put yourself into risk?

Or, if it's a university, students can do such things just for fun. Or hackers may start hunting for industrial equipment. Just think of Stuxnet.

So, keep it in DMZ with no Internet just in case :)

* I know that there might be compatibility issues. But, hey, everything is on ARM now, so that's not impossible. Or with shell scripting.

PS I work in security industry, so I can be biased :). It's also very easy to fall into "more protection is better" trap and "over-protect" your stuff.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on September 28, 2017, 11:37:35 am
PS I work in security industry, so I can be biased :). It's also very easy to fall into "more protection is better" trap and "over-protect" your stuff.
I've just ordered the new variant. No Ethernet, radiation hardened and IP67  :-DD
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 03, 2017, 11:40:10 pm
Has this device actually been released in the Chinese domestic market? It surprises me a bit that not a single video or any other user generated information or content has been posted to the internet.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on October 03, 2017, 11:48:02 pm
Has this device actually been released in the Chinese domestic market? It surprises me a bit that not a single video or any other user generated information or content has been posted to the internet.
Not sure.
The one I have has only a low 2 digit SN# so maybe only enough have been made to send to beta testers and reveal at trade shows.
The factory is on hols this week so after that we'd expect some new FW and then some more further checks before it's anywhere ready for release. ATM core functionality is pretty good.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: stj on October 04, 2017, 12:25:33 am
the chinese arent big utube addicts, they have there own streaming video hosts.
so there may be lots of stuff - you just cant see it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 04, 2017, 12:42:25 am
the chinese arent big utube addicts, they have there own streaming video hosts.
so there may be lots of stuff - you just cant see it.
I've managed to dig up fairly obscure stuff before, but in this case I'm drawing a blank.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: stj on October 04, 2017, 02:48:20 am
http://www.youku.com/ (http://www.youku.com/)

http://www.soku.com/search_video/q_siglent?f=1&kb=040200000000000__siglent&spm=a2hww.20023042.#qheader_search~10 (http://www.soku.com/search_video/q_siglent?f=1&kb=040200000000000__siglent&spm=a2hww.20023042.#qheader_search~10)
just examples.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Giuss on October 05, 2017, 07:43:53 pm
An news about avaiabilty in other markets?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 05, 2017, 07:45:38 pm
Will be Q1 2018
As soon as we get news or sample we will post
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 06, 2017, 07:50:12 am
Will be Q1 2018
As soon as we get news or sample we will post
Apparently it will be early Q1 2018, considering a comment has been made that release is much less than 6 months away. The end of Q1 was pretty much exactly 6 months away at that point, so it would have to be januari or februari at worst, but I would consider Valentines Day to be the boundary between much less and just under.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Gabri74 on October 06, 2017, 08:05:09 am
Will be Q1 2018
As soon as we get news or sample we will post

(Disclaimer: Italy-oriented question ;-) )
Hi Simone, do you think that for Italy it will be possible to preorder and pay before dicember 31st? Because I guess this DSO is elegible for Superammortamento/Industria4.0 concessions (for non italian people, those are a kind of una-tantum tax relief) ?

Tnx
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 06, 2017, 08:18:44 am
(Disclaimer: Italy-oriented question ;-) )
Hi Simone, do you think that for Italy it will be possible to preorder and pay before dicember 31st? Because I guess this DSO is elegible for Superammortamento/Industria4.0 concessions (for non italian people, those are a kind of una-tantum tax relief) ?

Tnx
I'm coming from the same angle. It would be beneficial for me to make the investment in 2017, although I could compensate a bit by advancing other expenditures.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Giuss on October 06, 2017, 09:01:57 am
I was thinking to buy a sds1202x-e or a ds1054z this week because I need it, but now I've seen this new model. I don't know what to do :)  If I need to wait 6 months, I'll buy another one
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 06, 2017, 09:06:30 am
I was thinking to buy a sds1202x-e or a ds1054z this week because I need it, but now I've seen this new model. I don't know what to do :)  If I need to wait 6 months, I'll buy another one
Here too I'm in the same boat. I've bought a Velleman WFS210 to bridge the gap, even though I know it cannot be compared to the two real oscilloscopes. I hope it will at least keep me going until the reviews for the SDS1204X-E start coming in.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: IAmBack on October 06, 2017, 09:53:27 am
I do not live in Italy, but I think you should ask this question to your tax authorities.
In my country the company can create a "pro forma invoice", but you can use this invoice to deduct VAT and can not use it to deduct income tax (maybe the opposite, i don't remember exactly, but this shows problems with a tax deduction).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 06, 2017, 02:59:07 pm
Will be Q1 2018
As soon as we get news or sample we will post

(Disclaimer: Italy-oriented question ;-) )
Hi Simone, do you think that for Italy it will be possible to preorder and pay before dicember 31st? Because I guess this DSO is elegible for Superammortamento/Industria4.0 concessions (for non italian people, those are a kind of una-tantum tax relief) ?

Tnx
I would say it is possible if they will not need the delivery note.
I will investigate with our admin office and come back to you.
Please be aware we are not informed about a release date at this moment.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Gabri74 on October 28, 2017, 10:25:28 am
Any news on availability in Europe/Italy? This french store already lists it (with wrong picture) and seems to accept preorders:

http://www.limpulsion.fr/art/SDS1204XE/SIGLENT__Oscilloscope_4x200_MHz_7_decodage (http://www.limpulsion.fr/art/SDS1204XE/SIGLENT__Oscilloscope_4x200_MHz_7_decodage)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 28, 2017, 10:48:44 am
Hmmm thanks for posting this. Very strange since Siglent doesn’t want to roll out the unit in EU before they have well tested it into the domestic market.
However we will check and post more official info when possible!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 28, 2017, 11:42:01 am
Just had a official reply from Siglent China. Public European launch date is planned for November the 26th.
At the moment there are not official info about quantity availability and pricing.
Keep you posted  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on October 28, 2017, 11:48:34 am
I wonder if Dave will get one to review before then ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 28, 2017, 11:58:58 am
we all love Dave videos ...  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 28, 2017, 02:33:40 pm
Any news on availability in Europe/Italy? This french store already lists it (with wrong picture) and seems to accept preorders:

http://www.limpulsion.fr/art/SDS1204XE/SIGLENT__Oscilloscope_4x200_MHz_7_decodage (http://www.limpulsion.fr/art/SDS1204XE/SIGLENT__Oscilloscope_4x200_MHz_7_decodage)
Wow, this unit has 14 MHz of memory!

Joking aside, I see it apparently has 1 GB/s per channel, which is nice. It's also what you'd want in a 200 MHz scope, but it's good the have that confirmed. It does seem to have less memory than a fully upgraded DS1054Z, which surprises me a bit. Other manufacturers seem to consistently have a lot less memory, despite the Rigols selling like hotcakes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 28, 2017, 03:51:47 pm
Any news on availability in Europe/Italy? This french store already lists it (with wrong picture) and seems to accept preorders:

http://www.limpulsion.fr/art/SDS1204XE/SIGLENT__Oscilloscope_4x200_MHz_7_decodage (http://www.limpulsion.fr/art/SDS1204XE/SIGLENT__Oscilloscope_4x200_MHz_7_decodage)
Wow, this unit has 14 MHz of memory!

Joking aside, I see it apparently has 1 GB/s per channel, which is nice. It's also what you'd want in a 200 MHz scope, but it's good the have that confirmed. It does seem to have less memory than a fully upgraded DS1054Z, which surprises me a bit. Other manufacturers seem to consistently have a lot less memory, despite the Rigols selling like hotcakes.

It can imagine like this: (even if construction is different but functionally like this)

It have 4 channels. Or is it better say 2 + 2 channel.

Channels 1 and 2 have one ADC and shared 14M memory.
Channels 3 and 3 have one ADC and shared 14M memory.

ADC is single channel 1GSa/s (internally interleaved 2 channels) and two channel both 500MSa/s

Case A
If what ever single channel is alone in use it have 1GSa/s and max 14M memory.

Case B
If all 4 channels or what ever 3 channels simultaneously in use all have 500MSa/s and all have 7M max memory length.

Case C
If in channel pair 1&2  is only one channel in use this channel have 1GSa/s and 14M max memory lenghth.

Case D
If in channel pair 3&4  is only one channel in use this channel have 1GSa/s and 14M max memory lenghth.

Case E 
Case C  and  Case D  (= two channels in use, both 1GSa/s and both 14M max mem)

Case F
If in channel pair (1&2 or 3&4) both channels are in use they have 500MSa/s max and 7M memory max.

500MSa/s is not enough for 200MHz sinewave when Sinc interpolation is used if we want accurate amplitude information and time window is short - as it need be short in oscilloscope. But it is as usable as 250MSa/s for 50MHz.  Good amplitude accuracy can typically reach if input frequency is fsample /5.

Here attached image how it looks typically with different sample frequency  vs input sinewave frequency.
2.5 means that (example) 200MHz input and sample frequency  200*2.5=500MHz (Msa/s)

Many peoples have heard that all is ok if fin is < fNyquist (this is how rules are misunderstooded). Top in image is fin = fNyquist/1.25


Attached image is not from Siglent SDS1204X-E
It is from some my own teaching material without all finnish language explanations.
(btw, also you can find Agilent-Keysight paper about "number 5 thumb rules")
bottom of image there is multiplier  5. (f sample is 5 times f signal)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 28, 2017, 03:54:49 pm
The French advert says 1 GS/s per channel. Having less than that would be a bit of a letdown, as using full speed and sampling would be less ideal. You've demonstrated nicely why.

We'll see :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 28, 2017, 04:07:34 pm
The French advert says 1 GS/s per channel. Having less than that would be a bit of a letdown, as using full speed and sampling would be less ideal. You've demonstrated nicely why.

We'll see :)

French can advert what ever but this is really not fair way how to go.  Also in this ad they link wrong data sheet ( SDS1202X-E data sheet)  in this advert and wrong image. Why they do this shit - unknown.

What I previously told is how it is and this is explained also in chinese data sheet and manual. But perhaps this french is not interested about fact checking = trumpth, not truth.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 28, 2017, 04:13:18 pm
French can advert what ever but this is really not fair way how to go.  Also in this ad they link wrong data sheet ( SDS1202X-E data sheet)  in this advert and wrong image. Why they do this shit - unknown.

What I previously told is how it is and this is explained also in chinese data sheet and manual. But perhaps this french is not interested about fact checking = trumpth, not truth.
Fair enough. Information from a seller with MHz for memory size shouldn't be taken at face value.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on October 28, 2017, 04:16:35 pm
Here attached image how it looks typically with different sample frequency  vs input sinewave frequency.
2.5 means that (example) 200MHz input and sample frequency  200*2.5=500MHz (Msa/s)

Many peoples have heard that all is ok if fin is < fNyquist (this is how rules are misunderstooded). Top in image is fin = fNyquist/1.25

Attached image is not from Siglent SDS1204X-E
bottom of image there is multiplier  5. (f sample is 5 times f signal)
Seems more like using a crap scope on purpose to support nonsense. It is well known sinc/x reconstruction works well for frequencies little over fs/2.5. See the attached picture (sampling mode with infinite persistence on):
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=364927;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 28, 2017, 05:14:57 pm
Here attached image how it looks typically with different sample frequency  vs input sinewave frequency.
2.5 means that (example) 200MHz input and sample frequency  200*2.5=500MHz (Msa/s)

Many peoples have heard that all is ok if fin is < fNyquist (this is how rules are misunderstooded). Top in image is fin = fNyquist/1.25

Attached image is not from Siglent SDS1204X-E
bottom of image there is multiplier  5. (f sample is 5 times f signal)
Seems more like using a crap scope on purpose to support nonsense. It is well known sinc/x reconstruction works well for frequencies little over fs/2.5. See the attached picture (sampling mode with infinite persistence on):
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=364927;image)




Yes with better scopes where Sinc filter parameters are better. It depends...
(Also it looks that chinese GoodWill have ok.)

Example this.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=364939;image)

Between images cable changed due to bad BNC connector.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=364941;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: alreadystarted on October 28, 2017, 08:34:13 pm
I hope they fix the typo 1 Ga/s on the nameplate before production:/
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: EEVblog on October 29, 2017, 12:10:44 am
How bode plot was made? Does it come with a built-in 30MHz signal generator?

Yes but the FG is an option which is not particularly cheap because it's an external box:

(https://i.imgur.com/kDA2lZG.png)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: EEVblog on October 29, 2017, 12:15:16 am
The 4 channel models will have WiFi and Webserver. This way you can replicate and command the unit from a PC using the browser. and the IP address of the unit. Not bad for a entry level unit.

The WiFi is a paid option.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: EEVblog on October 29, 2017, 12:19:38 am
I wonder if Dave will get one to review before then ?

Yep, I'm getting one pre-release, 2nd week Nov.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 29, 2017, 12:59:02 am
Yep, I'm getting one pre-release, 2nd week Nov.
It's two channel sibling appears to have compensation issues that require the user to do a board level repair to fix. It might be interesting to see whether the four channel model has these issues too.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-compensation-issue/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 29, 2017, 09:39:50 am
I hope they fix the typo 1 Ga/s on the nameplate before production:/

Do not worry.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=365143;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 29, 2017, 10:24:31 am
Because of sampling rate it may be possible Siglent will focus on the 100MHz on the 4ch version in EU.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 29, 2017, 11:37:26 am
Because of sampling rate it may be possible Siglent will focus on the 100MHz on the 4ch version in EU.

Why? Can you give some reasonings.

I think  well done Sinc interpolation together with 500MSa/s is enough for 200MHz. (of course these are based to sine waves, always)

You can see here 500MSa/s is enough. Just  Reply #97 in this thread yesterday.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1335055/#msg1335055 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1335055/#msg1335055)

But I'm interested to listen your opinion and reasoning.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 29, 2017, 11:46:34 am
About the 2 channels Siglent brought the 200MHz X-E only to EU. In China is also available 100MHz.
It is a commercial consideration only. I agree with you the 200MHz 4ch spec are good too.
We will discover this in 2 weeks.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 29, 2017, 12:04:27 pm
About the 2 channels Siglent brought the 200MHz X-E only to EU. In China is also available 100MHz.
It is a commercial consideration only. I agree with you the 200MHz 4ch spec are good too.
We will discover this in 2 weeks.

Yes, domestic market in China is different.
We can see there many other Siglent equipments models than here in outside China markets.
Example 1074X-E, 1104X-E and 1204X-E
Same  also with two channel models.
Noted also that inputs are not direct copy from 2 channel models. 2 channel models input capacitance 18pF and 4 channel models 15pF.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: exe on October 29, 2017, 01:30:45 pm
Why?

Because real signals are often not sine and bandwidth does not abruptly stop at 200MHz. There are details like small ringing, etc that will be washed out with too low sampling rate.

Same for bandwidth: more bandwidth == less amplitude distortion (and more picked noise). And scopes normally have more bandwidth than advertised.

So, I don't see the reason why there "must" be any relation between bandwidth and sampling rate. Each parameter independently improves capturing. What makes sense to me is to have a "balanced" solution in terms of BW, sampling rate and price.

Interestingly enough, oscilloscopes of the past used to have a different BW / Rate ratio. Like, a 500MHz scope with just 1Gsa/s. Not anymore nowadays. May be because it was not a sweet price point, or that scopes relied on "equivalent" sampling.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 29, 2017, 02:31:30 pm
Why?

Because real signals are often not sine and bandwidth does not abruptly stop at 200MHz. There are details like small ringing, etc that will be washed out with too low sampling rate.

Same for bandwidth: more bandwidth == less amplitude distortion (and more picked noise). And scopes normally have more bandwidth than advertised.

So, I don't see the reason why there "must" be any relation between bandwidth and sampling rate. Each parameter independently improves capturing. What makes sense to me is to have a "balanced" solution in terms of BW, sampling rate and price.

Interestingly enough, oscilloscopes of the past used to have a different BW / Rate ratio. Like, a 500MHz scope with just 1Gsa/s. Not anymore nowadays. May be because it was not a sweet price point, or that scopes relied on "equivalent" sampling.

Bandwidth mean sinewave bandwidth of course.

If people have NOT sinewave signal what base frequency is 200MHz and he use 200MHz BW oskilloscope and he think or wants  he must also see these harmonics or other over 200MHz components in signal he is just telling he need more lessons.
It is essential to understand basics before start using tools. Even if tool is hammer or oscilloscope or particle accelerator.
200MHz oscilloscope is not for measure or display right at all even 1Hz signal if it means example 1Hz square wave and need measure its frequency components up to example 1GHz for measure its rising edge.


Oscilloscopes mostly have gaussian type BW shape.

Perhaps 200MHz nameplate sscope -3dB point ( input BNC) is example something between 200 to 250MHz. -6dB perhaps 230 - 280MHz or something like this.

It is not first time when I tell that instead of hack scope for more wide BW it is perhaps more wise to modify these for rejected BW specially so that BW shape is more like brickwall type than slow decay gaussian. Just for avoid aliasing what is many times lot of under estimated and poorly understood thing.

And this must say. 500MSa/s 200MHz oscilloscope is really easy with signals what have over 250MHz frequency components in signal under test and it leads aliasing and this is math, it is not oscilloscope brand. User need understand how to avoid these traps and not be fooled by scope screen or displayed numbers in these cases. This need knowledge and experience (as all things need).
Also due to Sinc interpolation parameter compromises some not so nice things start more or less below fNyquist.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: exe on October 29, 2017, 03:09:15 pm
And this must say. 500MSa/s 200MHz oscilloscope is really easy with signals what have over 250MHz frequency components in signal under test and it leads aliasing and this is math, it is not oscilloscope brand. User need understand how to avoid these traps and not be fooled by scope screen or displayed numbers in these cases.

This is why I disable interpolation and I prefer scopes with faster sampling -- I don't want see artifacts of interpolation.

So, I didn't get it if you are agree with me or not, but I stand my ground. Faster sampling is better. More BW is better (if you can limit it when full BW is not needed to avoid noise pickup, my scope can do this).

Perhaps, extra samples may help reducing interpolation errors, too.


Perhaps 200MHz nameplate sscope -3dB point ( input BNC) is example something between 200 to 250MHz. -6dB perhaps 230 - 280MHz or something like this.

SDS1202X-e, for example, has more than 300MHz, afaik. So, reasoning based on assumption this is a 200MHz scope is just wrong.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 29, 2017, 03:56:39 pm


SDS1202X-e, for example, has more than 300MHz, afaik. So, reasoning based on assumption this is a 200MHz scope is just wrong.

My Tektronix nameplate read 150MHz and it is stated also in data sheet. Its measured -3dB point is around 250MHz.  It can easy show and trig far over 500MHz signal. "Assumption" it is 150MHz oscilloscope is wrong? Tektronix have told it is 150MHz oscilloscope. They need not tell how wrong it display over this nameplate frequency. It is user education problem and nothing more.
Nameplate 150MHz do not violate anything and it is right.  It is user problem if he insert over 150MHz signal and then displayed result is too far away from some kind of more os less imagined or known "truth".
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on October 29, 2017, 06:15:08 pm
Perhaps 200MHz nameplate sscope -3dB point ( input BNC) is example something between 200 to 250MHz. -6dB perhaps 230 - 280MHz or something like this.

SDS1202X-e, for example, has more than 300MHz, afaik. So, reasoning based on assumption this is a 200MHz scope is just wrong.
No it's not, sure it will display 300+ MHz but greatly attenuated.
A quick check I did a couple of months back on SDS1202X-E:
Recent -3dB point check using freshly acquired HP 500 MHz sig gen.

10 mV source signal, BNC connection through Tek 1:1 50 ohm BNC inline feedthrough.
Slight discrepancy in frequency measurements but despite this indicates the -3dB point is ~240 MHz.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-'official'-siglent-sds1202x-e-thread/?action=dlattach;attach=347766;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on October 29, 2017, 06:29:42 pm
Perhaps 200MHz nameplate sscope -3dB point ( input BNC) is example something between 200 to 250MHz. -6dB perhaps 230 - 280MHz or something like this.
SDS1202X-e, for example, has more than 300MHz, afaik. So, reasoning based on assumption this is a 200MHz scope is just wrong.
What counts is the -3dB point referenced to a relatively low frequency like somewhere between 100kHz and 10MHz. Any oscilloscope will show signals with frequencies above it's nameplate bandwidth because it doesn't have a brickwall input filter. You also have to be aware that there are many more things which attenuate a signal between the probing point and the input of the ADC in the oscilloscope. The actual high frequency content of a signal from a regular probe will be attenuated way more then the signal from a signal generator. As a rule of thumb you need 50 Ohm inputs and special (low-Z probes for example) to measure signals over 100MHz accurately because regular probes load these signals too much. The discussion here is kinda moot anyway.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TD-Linux on October 30, 2017, 12:58:47 am
The choice of sampling rate vs bandwidth is mostly an engineering and cost optimization question. You only need 2x the bandwidth in terms of sample rate in order to accurately reproduce a band limited signal. The difficulty is band-limiting it, which must be done by an analog filter. A sharper filter is more expensive to implement, and introduces additional noise and non-linearity. So instead, you can use a gentler filter and sample at a higher rate so that the attenuation of the filter at half the sample rate is acceptable. Then you apply the rest of the filtering via a software low pass filter to get a sharp passband (or at least you would in audio).

I think a lot of scopes skip out on the last software filtering step because engineers would rather have lower-than-expected response at high frequencies rather than none at all.

As long as Siglent has sharp enough analog filters, there should be no problem with 200MHz across all four channels. It would be good to test for aliasing with all four channels enabled though, in case they didn't.

If you aren't familiar with digital sampling, I'd suggest watching Monty's video on the subject: https://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TimInCanada on October 30, 2017, 04:00:16 am
Interestingly enough, oscilloscopes of the past used to have a different BW / Rate ratio. Like, a 500MHz scope with just 1Gsa/s. Not anymore nowadays. May be because it was not a sweet price point, or that scopes relied on "equivalent" sampling.

For the all-time winner of BW/Sampling rate ratio, I nominate the HP 54610B (http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1000001431%3Aepsg%3Apro-pn-54610B/20-msa-s-500-mhz-2-channel-oscilloscope?cc=US&lc=eng): 500 MHz / 20MSa/s.  25:1.  Beat that!   :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 30, 2017, 05:52:24 am
Interestingly enough, oscilloscopes of the past used to have a different BW / Rate ratio. Like, a 500MHz scope with just 1Gsa/s. Not anymore nowadays. May be because it was not a sweet price point, or that scopes relied on "equivalent" sampling.

For the all-time winner of BW/Sampling rate ratio, I nominate the HP 54610B (http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1000001431%3Aepsg%3Apro-pn-54610B/20-msa-s-500-mhz-2-channel-oscilloscope?cc=US&lc=eng): 500 MHz / 20MSa/s.  25:1.  Beat that!   :-+

Tektronix 7854  800:1
(400MHz BW  with  0.5MSa/s 10 bit digitizer and waveform calculator.)

But, is it better to separate real time (single shot) and many kind of repetitive systems. Even with 1Hz sampler you can 1GHz and this is not limit. Only reconstruction time is limit.

I think good  "Rule of thumb" for real time scopes with well implemented Sinc interpolation is: BW max f  = fsample/2.5  or (fNyquist /1.25 = max BW)

In theory we can go more close and even up to (fNyquist but oscilloscope need fast step response so we can not take lot of samples and then calculate (filter). Sinc  interpolation filter what give acceptable level accuracy with 2.5 samples for one sine cycle is good compromise.

In well done oscilloscope: User can always select interpolation mode Sinc or vectors - and due to good education user know how to use these and how to read screen. And also there must be true interpolation off or on. (dots/lines) (not as some scopes do in dot modes they generaate fake dots between sample points. This is most stupid what I have seen if this feature can not turn off or least turn real sample points highlight on if scope have this fake dots total stupidity.
It also need be possible as post processing with stored acquisitions (example oscilloscope stopped  or for stored segments or normal running waveform buffer.  If oscilloscope do not draw Sinc  via true sampled points enough accurate it can say it is made for garbage collection.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 30, 2017, 06:31:44 am
Please guys, can we talk about the new scope?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 30, 2017, 06:33:24 am
Please guys, can we talk about the new scope?

At this time we do not have new scope. Only rumors that it exist. ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 30, 2017, 06:45:22 am
waiting mode engaged
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 30, 2017, 06:57:53 am

At this time we do not have new scope. Only rumors that it exist. ;)
Dave had some good intel.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 30, 2017, 07:16:16 am

At this time we do not have new scope. Only rumors that it exist. ;)
Dave had some good intel.
He is not alone.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on October 30, 2017, 07:33:11 am
He is not alone.
Spill the beans!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on October 30, 2017, 07:54:48 am
He is not alone.
Spill the beans!
There's only so much as beta testers we can tell.....NDA and all that.  :-X

But you can glean quite a lot from translating the Chinese datasheet and user manual.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on October 30, 2017, 08:11:21 am
I wonder if Dave will get one to review before then ?

Yep, I'm getting one pre-release, 2nd week Nov.
Do you know if it will be fully optioned Dave ?
WiFi, AWG and Digital pod ?

I've only used the AWG as the Wifi dongle and digital pod weren't shipped with my unit.  :(
Any of the Siglent AWG's can be controlled with the UI so you can use the Bode plot feature.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 31, 2017, 08:55:24 am
some fun on a working day waiting for the SDS1204X-E, Happy Halloween!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Giuss on October 31, 2017, 12:05:03 pm
Can't wait to see Dave's preview or review and also to know the price in EU
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 31, 2017, 04:13:57 pm
Siglent has removed the SDS1102X from the European stock and promo. This may show a possible overlap of pricing with the upcoming SDS1104X-E  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 31, 2017, 05:53:21 pm
Siglent has removed the SDS1102X from the European stock and promo. This may show a possible overlap of pricing with the upcoming SDS1104X-E  :popcorn:

And what is your information source?

Siglent official  European web side:

http://siglenteu.com/qyxwxx.aspx?id=3926&sid=210 (http://siglenteu.com/qyxwxx.aspx?id=3926&sid=210)
As long as they keep this info in official web side I think it is valid. But, of course this may change sooner or later. Then we live with this new info.

Batronix. Also tell offer continue until Dec 31. As far as I know they have followed official Siglent EU GmbH information.

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1102X.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1102X.html)

I keep this information valid until I get official different information from Siglent.
Officially Siglent do not give public information about end date Dec 31. Only they tell: "Don’t wait - this deal won’t last long!"


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 31, 2017, 05:58:38 pm
My info is confirmed by Siglent website. In fact the SDS1102X is not here anymore http://siglenteu.com/m/newsxq.aspx?id=3926 (http://siglenteu.com/m/newsxq.aspx?id=3926)
You will see this happening in all distributors website soon.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 31, 2017, 06:02:55 pm
My info is confirmed by Siglent website. In fact the SDS1102X is not here anymore http://siglenteu.com/m/newsxq.aspx?id=3926 (http://siglenteu.com/m/newsxq.aspx?id=3926)
You will see this happening in all distributors website soon.

I am distributor. ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on October 31, 2017, 06:07:49 pm
Good  :D
You will see I’m not wrong  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on October 31, 2017, 07:22:15 pm
Good  :D
You will see I’m not wrong  :-+

Yes but current information at this time is as previously have been and is today.
After new official information free for public, then we give official information as it is. ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 01, 2017, 08:25:33 am
Official information from Siglent.  1.11.2017
Siglent (Siglent Technologies Europe GmbH) do not stock SDS1102X model anymore.

------------------------------------------------

General storylines:
And this is NOT alone about just Siglent. There is many.

What I have never understood, not yesterday, not today and not tomorrow.
Change from 8" display to 7" displays. Even more bad now after SDS1000X-E series have also 4 channel models.
I understand it with price. But also can ask, why go to tight price competition with cheapest bottoms. Look for what ever equipment, from dmm to TV sets and bicycles. Who believe cheapest win and get best total profit.

Example I with my own eyes have very severe problems with 7" TFT in oscilloscope with very tiny text information on screen, looks like no one have designed it - only just drop out from slapdash hands something. After these boys and girls who design these things come to over 40, 50, 60... eyes adaptation to different distances change and also eyes accuracy other ways may decay.  Example here in Finland is lot of professionals and really lot of (proportionally to population) hobbyists who are over 50 years and I can easy find over 80 years electronics hobbyists who still are buying new modern equipments.  This is because here we have been deep inside electronics very long time. But these new things are designed  for youths with good well adaptive eyes etc. This is wrong road. All we know that around of world we have more and more older peoples who also do lot of things and activities after 60 and 70 years. They have hobbies, they are even working. But things are designed for more and more younger peoples. This is paradoxal phenomena. Who manufacturer understand this today he can win later. This is fact in many area of goods and things. Also money is there. China is bit different with these technical things because electronics development there is so so young. Ten years ago in China I ask where I can find electronics hobbyists. Peoples did not even understand what I askl. Today is different but there my mutual opinion is, hobbyists average age is far lower than here in western  countries.  This is what we also can see in chinese design.

Lets hope next economy price model is minimum 8" display or better if 10" and with full separate controls and good  designed and professionally finished UI. Starting from fonts and ending how encoders work and how keyboard feel and work and what are ergonomic positions of controls. This part of design need most high level knowledge and hard-core experience and knowledge about human psycho-physical "features and specifications".


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on November 01, 2017, 10:32:33 am
This problem is long fixed with USB scopes / logic analyzers. Also newer standalone scopes often have webpage type interface that may work quite well. You have to be very oldschool or masochist doing something requiring lots of fine detail with these inbuilt postcards. Postcard-only scopes are for hobbyist feel-good and room decoration + simple tasks requiring good DPO performance - direct replacement for CRO.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 01, 2017, 10:38:07 am
Nice marketing statement to promote USB scope ...  :--
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on November 01, 2017, 10:49:13 am
This is reality. If eye strain is concern - large IPS monitor is basically only option. If you have watched Keysight interview with Dave it was also voiced that devices w/o physical inbuilt GUI are future.
I have lots of USB gear from various brands exactly for this reason - ultra portable & no eye strain. However they do have other drawbacks and in fact I will get some postcard device in future for specific tasks. Its all about picking right tool for the job.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 01, 2017, 10:52:09 am
I still like the romance of buttons and knobs ... but yes big large screens are nice and damn expensive!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Loboscope on November 01, 2017, 11:16:50 am
Also in bottom-line scopes it should be easy and not expensive to add an up-to-date HDMI or DVI- connection. Doing so would allow the user to add a simple and low-cost monitor if he wants or needs a bigger screen.  This would be a nice combination to maintain a small and bench-place saving scope and to have a bigger screen whenever it is needed.
It could be so simple and acceptable cheap.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 01, 2017, 11:18:01 am
This problem is long fixed with USB scopes / logic analyzers. Also newer standalone scopes often have webpage type interface that may work quite well. You have to be very oldschool or masochist doing something requiring lots of fine detail with these inbuilt postcards. Postcard-only scopes are for hobbyist feel-good and room decoration + simple tasks requiring good DPO performance - direct replacement for CRO.

Personally I use only bunch of separate stand alone equipment's. And I want to use. Maybe I'm old school masochist. If so,  I'm proud of this experience and position. All do not have this possibility.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on November 01, 2017, 11:32:30 am
Personally I use only bunch of separate stand alone equipment's. And I want to use. Maybe I'm old school masochist. If so,  I'm proud of this experience and position. All do not have this possibility.

Of course, for example I prefer cars with free breathing high rev boxer engine and manual gearbox. Also not all have this possibility. I'm quite proud to have this and also some experience driving formula cars including F1 and so on. However this is all very separate issue from what is efficient transportation and what future brings for us in general.

BTW here F1 of scopes - 100GSa/s realtime, notice screen size (just FYI postcard) and how it is actually used:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/yet-another-fast-edge-pulse-generator/?action=dlattach;attach=361767;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 01, 2017, 11:33:08 am
Also in bottom-line scopes it should be easy and not expensive to add an up-to-date HDMI or DVI- connection. Doing so would allow the user to add a simple and low-cost monitor if he wants or needs a bigger screen.  This would be a nice combination to maintain a small and bench-place saving scope and to have a bigger screen whenever it is needed.
It could be so simple and acceptable cheap.
A huge screen isn't really helpful if it's a tiny resolution.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Hydron on November 01, 2017, 12:13:29 pm
I find there are benefits and drawback to both the USB & Buttons/Knobs type of instrument. The latter is nicer to use when poking around a circuit trying to find a problem, the former has advantages using a big screen for analysis, as well as being much more portable (assuming you're already taking a laptop!).

What I do agree with is that the screen size/resolution of most stuff out there is a bit pathetic. Given the price you can buy a cheap 1080p+ tablet for, having a max of 7-8" @ 800*480 as standard for almost all test equipment in the hobbyist budget range is really poor (though some manufacturers are a bit stuck with existing ASICs I guess). Going from using a DS1054Z screen to a RTB2004 (with 10" 1280*800) was a huge usability upgrade, but the latter was only really "affordable" (still ~6 times the cost of the rigol) due to the extreme launch discount.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 01, 2017, 12:22:35 pm
This is reality. If eye strain is concern - large IPS monitor is basically only option. If you have watched Keysight interview with Dave it was also voiced that devices w/o physical inbuilt GUI are future.
I have lots of USB gear from various brands exactly for this reason - ultra portable & no eye strain. However they do have other drawbacks and in fact I will get some postcard device in future for specific tasks. Its all about picking right tool for the job.
With touchscreen becoming the standard the 'traditional' equipment is likely to have less and less buttons. At some point you could have a USB analog frontend connected to a tablet and operate it from there. I don't like needing a PC to operate a scope because it is too cumbersome to deal with installing software.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 01, 2017, 12:27:33 pm
nctnico this is a very good point. Back to the tread let see how the Siglent unit will handle the external signal generator.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 01, 2017, 12:29:28 pm
With touchscreen becoming the standard the 'traditional' equipment is likely to have less and less buttons. At some point you could have a USB analog frontend connected to a tablet and operate it from there. I don't like needing a PC to operate a scope because it is too cumbersome to deal with installing software.
A tablet doesn't need less effort to install things.

Besides, a physical interface is hard to replace. You can have all the touch screens in the world, reaching for a knob while looking at a circuit will always be easier when it's a physical knob. Touch screens inevitably require your visual attention.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on November 01, 2017, 12:46:10 pm
reaching for a knob while looking at a circuit

::)

will always be easier when it's a physical knob. Touch screens inevitably require your visual attention.

Exactly - little knobbed device very good if all attention on poking circuit. Game changes if circuit/device just sitting there and all attention to analyzing comms or some delicate analog process. But here I do not get touchscreen at all. Mouse = microscopic wrist movements. Touchscreen = waving hands around. Not efficient. However touchscreen inevitable because new generation likes to touch. Main thing still to implement keyb/mouse support (secretly from marketing if needed) :P
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 01, 2017, 12:48:58 pm
With touchscreen becoming the standard the 'traditional' equipment is likely to have less and less buttons. At some point you could have a USB analog frontend connected to a tablet and operate it from there. I don't like needing a PC to operate a scope because it is too cumbersome to deal with installing software.
A tablet doesn't need less effort to install things.

Besides, a physical interface is hard to replace. You can have all the touch screens in the world, reaching for a knob while looking at a circuit will always be easier when it's a physical knob. Touch screens inevitably require your visual attention.
Am I missing something here? On an oscilloscope you need to look at the screen anyway :o I dare to say that adjusting anything on an oscilloscope will be combined with looking at the screen.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 01, 2017, 05:41:04 pm
Am I missing something here? On an oscilloscope you need to look at the screen anyway :o I dare to say that adjusting anything on an oscilloscope will be combined with looking at the screen.
It would be convenient if you hands weren't in the way, then ;D

Obviously, some controls are very well suited for a touch screen, while others are much more suited for physical interface. There is a reason a Surface Pro still comes with physical keyboard and even a touch pad. Feedback can be vital for the ease of use.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 01, 2017, 06:56:04 pm
Back to the tread let see how the Siglent unit will handle the external signal generator.
Why ?
Both the SDS1*04X-E USB AWG option and stand-alone SDG's work fine for Bode plot usage. USB or LAN control for SDG's.
In Bode plot mode the scope UI controls and sets the AWG values to be used with Bode plot.
There are default Bode plot values within the scope UI but they can be altered to suit your needs. Eg. different sweep frequencies, Voltage etc.
One scope channel must be used for the reference and any of the other 3 can be selected for the Bode plot trace.
Performance is improved if one channel is selected from each channel group. Eg. 1+3, 2+4 etc.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 01, 2017, 06:59:04 pm
Why?
Because I'm curious to see it working ...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 01, 2017, 07:41:38 pm
Why?
Because I'm curious to see it working ...
Connectivity and a settings summary is shown in the blank portion on the very top of the display just as it's done with SDS2kX and 1kX+ and the AWG is 'driven' with the option softkeys just like with the mentioned models.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 01, 2017, 07:46:02 pm
all fine thanks, I just want to play with the unit asap
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on November 02, 2017, 01:25:30 pm
There are default Bode plot values within the scope UI but they can be altered to suit your needs. Eg. different sweep frequencies, Voltage etc.

So for example with SDG2122X 0-120MHz sweep and scope will do automatic switching to get high dynamic range also? No silly limitations, real deal?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 02, 2017, 02:32:44 pm
There are default Bode plot values within the scope UI but they can be altered to suit your needs. Eg. different sweep frequencies, Voltage etc.

So for example with SDG2122X 0-120MHz sweep and scope will do automatic switching to get high dynamic range also? No silly limitations, real deal?
You'll have to wait a couple more weeks to see all the detail, but some little overview.

When you setup the swept range, the Bode plot horizontal scaling is adjusted to suit. Start and stop limits can be set. The screenshot in the OP is typical of what you see with the phase shift as the fainter trace.
For a large frequency range, the sweep can take some time to calculate and display all the trace but using the 2 ASIC's (1&3 or 2&4 ch's) speeds things up heaps. Yes you can select the channel the Bode plot is performed on/with.
Much depends on the filter you want to sweep as it will have a target frequency so you might first sweep it over a wide frequency range just to check and then narrow the sweep to what will better suit frequencies of interest.
It can take a while (5s) to get through to 1 MHz then it flies.

TBH I haven't gone looking for max frequencies it can manage as I have only 30 MHz available ATM.

When Dave gets one I imagine he'll have a good look at Bode plots to follow on from a vid he did on them some time back.

Edit
From the Chinese website:
(http://www.siglent.com/Chinese_website2014/picture/SDS1000X-E/18.png)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on November 02, 2017, 02:37:56 pm
Ok thanks, lets wait and see. Some video popped up not sure if it has been around before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBF-MjImmA8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBF-MjImmA8)

Edit: Can spot some little room for improvement with phase table:
- good practice is to right-align numbers with fix amount of decimal places and keep decimal point at const place, then can move ?Hz to table header
- phase should also have fix no of decimal places, not fix total of no. Currently seems that large phase will have accuracy artificially reduced

All fixed:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=366590)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 02, 2017, 06:20:46 pm
Don't get too excited about bode plotting at high frequencies. A real network analyser has the ability to create a reference sweep and go from there for a very good reason!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on November 02, 2017, 06:43:12 pm
Don't get too excited about bode plotting at high frequencies. A real network analyser has the ability to create a reference sweep and go from there for a very good reason!

If I understand correctly this uses 2 channel generator method like I used with my DIY math based bode plotting experiments (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/picoscope-2000/msg1298871/#msg1298871). Most differences not related to DUT should cancel out.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 02, 2017, 07:38:11 pm
Don't get too excited about bode plotting at high frequencies. A real network analyser has the ability to create a reference sweep and go from there for a very good reason!

If I understand correctly this uses 2 channel generator method like I used with my DIY math based bode plotting experiments (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/picoscope-2000/msg1298871/#msg1298871). Most differences not related to DUT should cancel out.
Yes, one scope channel is indeed the Ref channel and is not displayed at all until you leave Bode plot mode and return to normal scope mode. Ref is Ch2 in the image above.
Unless you have DUT BNC's, you need BNC to test clip leads (one for each side of DUT) and a BNC Tee to split the AWG signal sweep for DUT and scope Bode Ref input.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 02, 2017, 09:45:45 pm
This all just asks for a thorough review. I'm curious what'll pop up.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 13, 2017, 01:35:13 am
The second week of November is almost over, so we must be getting close to hearing more. If we're lucky, it might even be later this week :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 17, 2017, 11:37:16 pm
Spotted on Daves Twitter page:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOtorD4XUAAnYAm.jpg)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 17, 2017, 11:45:39 pm
He mentioned receiving it in yesterday's video too. Why haven't you watched that yet? Well!?  ;D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 18, 2017, 12:12:40 am
He mentioned receiving it in yesterday's video too. Why haven't you watched that yet? Well!?  ;D
Been away, still catching up.  :-[
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: stj on November 18, 2017, 01:22:17 am
i want to see it run oscillofun or beams of light.

that seems like a good way to see how fast it plots in XY mode.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 18, 2017, 08:56:30 pm
I hope to get the delivery this week or max next week.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Gabri74 on November 19, 2017, 11:08:35 am
This Ukrainian site has it on preorder (with obligatory wrong picture...  :palm:  ), 200MHz version for about 560€ (+VAT):

http://gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html (http://gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html)

English google translation:

https://translate.google.it/translate?hl=it?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html (https://translate.google.it/translate?hl=it?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 19, 2017, 11:30:47 am
We have now pages without pricing for 100MHz and 200MHz plus all options.
It is not clear yet if the WiFi dongle is included or optional.
We should get pricing and add them to the website hopefully by tomorrow.
Units (on limited availability) hopefully on 1 or 2 weeks.
I try to add as many info we can as quick as possible  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 19, 2017, 09:59:32 pm
This Ukrainian site has it on preorder (with obligatory wrong picture...  :palm:  ), 200MHz version for about 560€ (+VAT):

http://gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html (http://gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html)

English google translation:

https://translate.google.it/translate?hl=it?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html (https://translate.google.it/translate?hl=it?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html)
560 euro plus VAT is nearing 700 euro, or maybe over 700 euro delivered. I'm not seeing a DS1054Z killer just yet.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 20, 2017, 07:13:58 am
This Ukrainian site has it on preorder (with obligatory wrong picture...  :palm:  ), 200MHz version for about 560€ (+VAT):

http://gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html (http://gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html)

English google translation:

https://translate.google.it/translate?hl=it?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html (https://translate.google.it/translate?hl=it?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html)
560 euro plus VAT is nearing 700 euro, or maybe over 700 euro delivered. I'm not seeing a DS1054Z killer just yet.

You compare prices with old Riglol DS1054Z and SDS1204X-E.  Do you really think you compare apple with apple.

200MHz vs 50MHz (hacked 100MHz)

500MSa/s all 4 channels on vs 250MSa/s
1GSa/s for two channels vs 500MSa/s for 2 channels on.
real full resolution 500uV/div vs 5mV/div real full resolution
Always background real time running waveform history buffer. vs nothing
Fast sequence acquisition (aka segmented memory acq)  vs some kind of slow frame recorder.
Full speed mask test vs crap slow mask test (with false statistics die to different speed with pass or fail state)
1M FFT  vs  16kt(?) FFT
Much more fast UI
Professional grade Sin(x)x interpolation vs total crap fake Sin(x)/x
True full current memory length and full sample resolution measurements vs measurements from highly decimated display data. (very extremely poor time resolution with slower time bases)

and more...

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 20, 2017, 07:26:26 am

560 euro plus VAT is nearing 700 euro, or maybe over 700 euro delivered. I'm not seeing a DS1054Z killer just yet.
There will be the 100MHz version too (SDS1104X-E) which will be cheaper.
Tomorrow we will all know pricing  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: cbc02009 on November 20, 2017, 10:12:40 am

560 euro plus VAT is nearing 700 euro, or maybe over 700 euro delivered. I'm not seeing a DS1054Z killer just yet.
There will be the 100MHz version too (SDS1104X-E) which will be cheaper.
Tomorrow we will all know pricing  :popcorn:

https://smile.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1104X-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B0771N1ZF9/

found this on amazon, is this the correct model and price?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 20, 2017, 10:27:53 am
it seems right but some mistake on the description like the 16 channels (not really available)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 20, 2017, 10:33:11 am

https://smile.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1104X-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B0771N1ZF9/

found this on amazon, is this the correct model and price?
It's the 100 MHz version and the seller is Siglent USA so maybe they know something the rest of don't.  :-//
Barebones unit with zero options though.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 20, 2017, 10:38:53 am
16 channels option is not mentioned into the data sheet
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 20, 2017, 10:59:37 am

You compare prices with old Riglol DS1054Z and SDS1204X-E.  Do you really think you compare apple with apple.

200MHz vs 50MHz (hacked 100MHz)

500MSa/s all 4 channels on vs 250MSa/s
1GSa/s for two channels vs 500MSa/s for 2 channels on.
real full resolution 500uV/div vs 5mV/div real full resolution
Always background real time running waveform history buffer. vs nothing
Fast sequence acquisition (aka segmented memory acq)  vs some kind of slow frame recorder.
Full speed mask test vs crap slow mask test (with false statistics die to different speed with pass or fail state)
1M FFT  vs  16kt(?) FFT
Much more fast UI
Professional grade Sin(x)x interpolation vs total crap fake Sin(x)/x
True full current memory length and full sample resolution measurements vs measurements from highly decimated display data. (very extremely poor time resolution with slower time bases)

and more...
The DS1054Z has a proven track record and a community surrounding it. You can't just match it, you need to beat it convincingly to take the throne. Hacked or not doesn't matter, as everyone takes the 50 MHz DS1054Z base model to be a 100 MHz model with decoding anyway.

Maybe the 100 MHz Siglent SDS1204X-E can be hacked into 200 MHz. That would change things. Let's see what actual prices come up :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: epongenoir on November 20, 2017, 11:41:16 am
16 channels option is not mentioned into the data sheet

I agree with you about the MSO option, but even the Amazon product image shows the MSO traces in the image.. Which is rather strange!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 20, 2017, 11:45:03 am
Oh Wow! Now I'm confused :)
I like this kind of triller/ambiguos product launch!
Maybe the HDMI port will carry a MSO logic probe too?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on November 20, 2017, 11:46:25 am
This Ukrainian site has it on preorder (with obligatory wrong picture...  :palm:  ), 200MHz version for about 560€ (+VAT):

http://gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html (http://gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html)

English google translation:

https://translate.google.it/translate?hl=it?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html (https://translate.google.it/translate?hl=it?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//gtest.com.ua/sds1204x-e.html)
560 euro plus VAT is nearing 700 euro, or maybe over 700 euro delivered. I'm not seeing a DS1054Z killer just yet.

You compare prices with old Riglol DS1054Z and SDS1204X-E.  Do you really think you compare apple with apple.

200MHz vs 50MHz (hacked 100MHz)

500MSa/s all 4 channels on vs 250MSa/s
1GSa/s for two channels vs 500MSa/s for 2 channels on.
real full resolution 500uV/div vs 5mV/div real full resolution
Always background real time running waveform history buffer. vs nothing
Fast sequence acquisition (aka segmented memory acq)  vs some kind of slow frame recorder.
Full speed mask test vs crap slow mask test (with false statistics die to different speed with pass or fail state)
1M FFT  vs  16kt(?) FFT
Much more fast UI
Professional grade Sin(x)x interpolation vs total crap fake Sin(x)/x
True full current memory length and full sample resolution measurements vs measurements from highly decimated display data. (very extremely poor time resolution with slower time bases)

and more...
Yes, maybe a better specd scope with a higher price tag, but definitely not a killer
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: cbc02009 on November 20, 2017, 11:48:52 am

https://smile.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1104X-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B0771N1ZF9/

found this on amazon, is this the correct model and price?
It's the 100 MHz version and the seller is Siglent USA so maybe they know something the rest of don't.  :-//
Barebones unit with zero options though.

So it doesn't come with the USB waveform generator that is pictured on the siglent chinese website? that's a shame  :(
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 20, 2017, 11:51:50 am
No this is optional:
- hardare Siglent SAG1021
- software Siglent SDS1000X-E-FG
some description fro the Chinese data sheet:
SDS1000X-E accesses the 25MHz USB Arbitrary Waveform Generator module via USB Host. It integrates sine wave, square wave, triangle wave, pulse wave, noise, DC and 45 built-in Arbitrary Waveforms. Users can also edit arbitrary waveform by EasyWave PC software.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on November 20, 2017, 11:52:15 am

https://smile.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1104X-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B0771N1ZF9/ (https://smile.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1104X-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B0771N1ZF9/)

found this on amazon, is this the correct model and price?
It's the 100 MHz version and the seller is Siglent USA so maybe they know something the rest of don't.  :-//
Barebones unit with zero options though.
And with only 2 probes?????

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=371936;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on November 20, 2017, 11:54:10 am
Oh Wow! Now I'm confused :)
I like this kind of triller/ambiguos product launch!
Maybe the HDMI port will carry a MSO logic probe too?
Are you serious?  Confusing / misleading the buyers is a good product launch strategy?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 20, 2017, 11:56:02 am
The public launch date is not there yet, all those info can be slightly correct or wrong. Also sellers are not informed with official statements yet.
All will come tomorrow.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Performa01 on November 20, 2017, 11:58:24 am
Now that you already have a nice picture of the scope, take a guess what the small Sbus connector (next to the USB host port) is intended for? ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 20, 2017, 11:58:47 am
560 euro plus VAT is nearing 700 euro, or maybe over 700 euro delivered. I'm not seeing a DS1054Z killer just yet.
You compare prices with old Riglol DS1054Z and SDS1204X-E.  Do you really think you compare apple with apple.

That wasn't the question. The question was: "DS1054Z killer?"

200MHz vs 50MHz (hacked 100MHz)

500MSa/s all 4 channels on vs 250MSa/s
1GSa/s for two channels vs 500MSa/s for 2 channels on.
real full resolution 500uV/div vs 5mV/div real full resolution
Always background real time running waveform history buffer. vs nothing
Fast sequence acquisition (aka segmented memory acq)  vs some kind of slow frame recorder.
Full speed mask test vs crap slow mask test (with false statistics die to different speed with pass or fail state)
1M FFT  vs  16kt(?) FFT
Much more fast UI
Professional grade Sin(x)x interpolation vs total crap fake Sin(x)/x
True full current memory length and full sample resolution measurements vs measurements from highly decimated display data. (very extremely poor time resolution with slower time bases)

and more...

If that's the case then why hasn't Keysight already killed the DS1054Z with their 1000 series?

Because:
a) That stuff is mostly meaningless to the average buyer
b) $300 more!

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 20, 2017, 12:02:45 pm
Now that you already have a nice picture of the scope, take a guess what the small Sbus connector (next to the USB host port) is intended for? ;)
right, from the Chinese data sheet:

4-Channel Family Support, Siglent Logic Analyzer Interface

still not part number for the logic probe
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Giuss on November 20, 2017, 12:33:50 pm
I think that 700 eur is too high for it, because the two channels version (and also the Rigol) costs about 400 eur. I hope in a lower price range
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 20, 2017, 08:01:18 pm

https://smile.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1104X-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B0771N1ZF9/ (https://smile.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1104X-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B0771N1ZF9/)

found this on amazon, is this the correct model and price?
It's the 100 MHz version and the seller is Siglent USA so maybe they know something the rest of don't.  :-//
Barebones unit with zero options though.
And with only 2 probes?????
Yeah, that can't be right.....maybe an error by those listing it.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 20, 2017, 10:00:47 pm
When does the NDA get lifted?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 20, 2017, 11:56:29 pm
When does the NDA get lifted?
For those of us that are involved with beta testing, 4 years.
However once released the unit and 'release' firmware is in the public domain.
Our beta reports remain confidential, all fair enough IMO.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 21, 2017, 12:34:19 am
For those of us that are involved with beta testing, 4 years.
However once released the unit and 'release' firmware is in the public domain.
Our beta reports remain confidential, all fair enough IMO.
I can understand that internal testing information remains confidential. However, I'm more interested in the date that reviewers and I guess testers are allowed to speak about their experiences with the released device.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 21, 2017, 01:06:17 am
For those of us that are involved with beta testing, 4 years.
However once released the unit and 'release' firmware is in the public domain.
Our beta reports remain confidential, all fair enough IMO.
I can understand that internal testing information remains confidential. However, I'm more interested in the date that reviewers and I guess testers are allowed to speak about their experiences with the released device.
Of course.

Once it's officially released we can share any operational details as we're the ones that have had probably the most experience with usage.
It's basic functionality is identical to the 200 MHz SDS1202X-E although AFAIK beta testers and Dave have only the 100 MHz versions. The Search, Navigate, inbuilt browser (PC control) and Bode plot features are what stand it apart from the 2 ch X-E.

Whoever does reviews need have some experience with advanced features to properly demonstrate what these units can do. They're quite a step up from the 2 ch X-E's.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Old Printer on November 21, 2017, 03:55:00 am
I am watching this with keen interest. I have been really focused on electronics as a hobby for the last year, though I have dabbled in it most of my life (64). I have a couple old Teks (475 & 2225), but I really wanted to  play with a digital with its ability hold and capture signals, particularly slow ones. And I like scopes :). Almost bought a 1054Z but decided instead on a new Analog Discovery 2. I really like it, particularly as I am interested learning digital logic too. It is really a Swiss Army Knife electronics learning tool, but also I saw some changes coming, maybe, in the $4-500 4 channel scope market. This Siglent seems like the first salvo, and having the AD2 I am no longer rushed for a digital scope. It would be great to see 2 or 3 manufactures battle it out :). Dave
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 21, 2017, 04:01:14 am
I am watching this with keen interest. I have been really focused on electronics as a hobby for the last year, though I have dabbled in it most of my life (64). I have a couple old Teks (475 & 2225), but I really wanted to  play with a digital with its ability hold and capture signals, particularly slow ones. And I like scopes :). Almost bought a 1054Z but decided instead on a new Analog Discovery 2. I really like it, particularly as I am interested learning digital logic too. It is really a Swiss Army Knife electronics learning tool, but also I saw some changes coming, maybe, in the $4-500 4 channel scope market. This Siglent seems like the first salvo, and having the AD2 I am no longer rushed for a digital scope. It would be great to see 2 or 3 manufactures battle it out :). Dave
I'm very keen to see the answer of Rigol. Are they going to cash in their reputation, or are they going toe to toe with Siglent for the budget king title? I guess it at least in part depends on the pricing Siglent decides upon. The ball is in Siglent's court now.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: EEVblog on November 21, 2017, 04:47:41 am
When does the NDA get lifted?

Launch is 26th Nov.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 21, 2017, 01:13:27 pm

https://smile.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1104X-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B0771N1ZF9/ (https://smile.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1104X-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B0771N1ZF9/)

found this on amazon, is this the correct model and price?
It's the 100 MHz version and the seller is Siglent USA so maybe they know something the rest of don't.  :-//
Barebones unit with zero options though.
And with only 2 probes?????

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=371936;image)
Siglent has made one data sheet only for both 2 and 4 channels.
The oscilloscope will come with one probe per channel so 2 or 4.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: StillTrying on November 21, 2017, 06:32:53 pm
They might have the options wrong, the number of probes wrong, and the width and height mixed up, but at least they've weighed it very accurately.  >:D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 21, 2017, 06:34:03 pm
ahahah nice one!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 21, 2017, 07:20:31 pm
This is the full option list:

SDS1000X-E-FG: Software For SAG1021 and Siglent standalone AWG control
SAG1021: HW 25 MHz Function/Arbitrary Waveform Generator

SDS1000X-E-16LA: MSO function software for SDS1000X-E oscilloscope, 16 channel, 500 MSa/s, 14 Mpts
SLA1016: MSO function hardware for SDS1000X-E oscilloscope, 16 channel, 500 MSa/s, 14 Mpts

SDS1000X-E-WIFI: Software wireless communication function; 802.11b/g/n-WPA-PSK
TL-WN725N: Hardware wireless communication function; 802.11b/g/n-WPA-PSK

No retail pricing as yet.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: JPortici on November 21, 2017, 07:20:51 pm
hi simone, i just saw the batterfly email. must say i'm very tempted
still no info on the AWG?

i wonder how it will compare to the DSOX-1102G (i mean in the real world, i can compare "datasheets")
especially the FRA part, if you can really change amplitude + offset it's a potential winner :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 21, 2017, 07:25:16 pm
Price available online from the 27th, all new PDF material already online.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 21, 2017, 07:29:16 pm
hi simone, i just saw the batterfly email. must say i'm very tempted
still no info on the AWG?
pricing online from the 27th ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: SaKhan on November 22, 2017, 09:31:28 am
Hi guys,
Greetings from Switzerland. I've been following the forum for quite a while and I finally decided to register as I am after a 4 channel oscilloscope and I'm watching this thread very closely. Based on the rumoured prices the difference between the 100 and 200 Mhz models seems to be quite big. Can someone tell me if Siglent have any plans in allowing the upgrade of the bandwidth? It would be pity if all that decent hardware is permanently limited to 100 Mhz without any options for upgrade what so ever. Alex
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 22, 2017, 10:27:21 am
Hi guys,
Greetings from Switzerland. I've been following the forum for quite a while and I finally decided to register as I am after a 4 channel oscilloscope and I'm watching this thread very closely. Based on the rumoured prices the difference between the 100 and 200 Mhz models seems to be quite big. Can someone tell me if Siglent have any plans in allowing the upgrade of the bandwidth? It would be pity if all that decent hardware is permanently limited to 100 Mhz without any options for upgrade what so ever. Alex
Welcome to the forum.

There will be 2 models, SDS1104X-E (100 MHz) and a 200 MHz version, SDS1204X-E.
To date Siglent have not offered purchasable BW upgrades and for this class of DSO I suspect they won't.

But, this forum is famous for sharing info on hacks and a few of which have been applied to Siglent equipment.
Of course any factory Calibration certificate will not be valid when an instrument is hacked and that will matter to some owners.
However we know some will try, why, because they can.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 22, 2017, 10:38:41 am
hi simone, i just saw the batterfly email. must say i'm very tempted
still no info on the AWG?

i wonder how it will compare to the DSOX-1102G (i mean in the real world, i can compare "datasheets")
especially the FRA part, if you can really change amplitude + offset it's a potential winner :)
About AWG, do you mean info about pricing or tech data?
Tech data are available on the data sheet and user manual. Public pricing on the 27th, very limited availability (maybe few pcs) till Xmas.
Not sure if I will be able to make a video with the AWG before Xmas, but Dave may do it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: SaKhan on November 22, 2017, 06:09:37 pm
Should we expect any reviews before the NDA is lifted?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 22, 2017, 06:23:53 pm
Should we expect any reviews before the NDA is lifted?
Not unless the reviewers want to wait until they are for sale next time.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Microcheap on November 22, 2017, 08:32:09 pm
I just spotted, Batronix is listing the SDS1104X-E at 510 eur and SDS1204X-E 784 eur vat. included

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html)
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/SDS1204X-E.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/SDS1204X-E.html)

But the rigol 1054z is now cheaper, 379 eur.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 22, 2017, 08:37:06 pm
Wow...launch date is scheduled for November the 27th, they were fast ...
Yes price are correct.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 22, 2017, 08:45:34 pm
The 100 MHz version is listed as a two channel version, though.

At these prices I guarantee you it's not going to be a DS1054Z killer. The 100 MHz version is over 25% more expensive than an easily upgraded DS1054Z and the 200 MHz model is almost double. Even if it's quicker and has some features the Rigol hasn't, it's going to be a tough sell. There's a reason the Rigol is popular and it's not because it's a flawless oscilloscope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 22, 2017, 08:51:54 pm
You maybe right, in fact the most of the request (with us) since yesterday are about the 200Mhz. But if the 100MHz will become hackable then it will be a different story!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 22, 2017, 08:57:44 pm
You maybe right, in fact the most of the request (with us) since yesterday are about the 200Mhz. But if the 100MHz will become hackable then it will be a different story!
I'm sure there will be a market for them, but I think it won't displace the DS1054Z. If the thing becomes hackable, then yes, it'll much more of a competitor.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: alreadystarted on November 22, 2017, 08:58:24 pm
The 100 MHz version is listed as a two channel version, though.

At these prices I guarantee you it's not going to be a DS1054Z killer. The 100 MHz version is over 25% more expensive than an easily upgraded DS1054Z and the 200 MHz model is almost double. Even if it's quicker and has some features the Rigol hasn't, it's going to be a tough sell. There's reason the Rigol is popular and it's not because it's a flawless oscilloscope.

I agree.  Amazon in the US is listing the 100MHz version (https://www.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1104X-Super-Phosphor-Oscilloscope/dp/B0771N1ZF9) at $499.  Which is arguably superior to a hacked DS1054Z ($400, current sale $350) based on specs, but with a $150 premium it's not clear the value is there.

Some kind of launch promo for the 200MHz package including the MSO option for like $650 would present some real value though.  I hope they consider something like that.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 22, 2017, 09:05:39 pm
It is almost Xmas and we have a nice oscilloscopes fight in place :)
It is nice to see so many new features in such segment and what will bring Rigol next!!!
Great time to be a electronic lover :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 22, 2017, 09:09:36 pm
It is almost Xmas and we have a nice oscilloscopes fight in place :)
It is nice to see so many new features in such segment and what will bring Rigol next!!!
Great time to be a electronic lover :)
Yeah, as stated before, I'm very curious how Rigol will respond to this. They have plenty to lose and should have the funds to pull a rabbit out of the hat.

Let's also not forget that engineers would have killed for one of these tools not too long ago. It's amazing what the progress of technology brings us.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Old Printer on November 22, 2017, 09:30:17 pm
Not sure if I am reading this right but Saelig seems to be offering the 1054Z for $349 and adding the Option BND-MSO/DS1000Z - Serial Decode-Record Mode-Long Memory and Advanced Triggering. I think it is the hack, but it would be nice to have it legit.
Tequipment is now showing this as well, no mention of the 100Mhz part. Is this Rigol's response to the Siglet 4ch scope? Or are they lowering stock in advance of something new. If so, they have kept it pretty quiet so far.
Dave
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 22, 2017, 09:33:50 pm
It is almost Xmas and we have a nice oscilloscopes fight in place :)
It is nice to see so many new features in such segment and what will bring Rigol next!!!
Great time to be a electronic lover :)
Yeah, as stated before, I'm very curious how Rigol will respond to this. They have plenty to lose and should have the funds to pull a rabbit out of the hat.
I think Rigol can lower the price because they have no engineering expenses anymore. For example: the DS1054Z currently costs $349 at Tequipment.net and they have over 1100 in stock at the moment. They are probably going to do good business during the upcoming holidays.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Digby on November 22, 2017, 09:39:04 pm
This will be released in the US on Monday, according to a Siglent rep.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Hydron on November 22, 2017, 09:42:25 pm
Assuming that there aren't any major gotchas, I think that the alleged improvements over the Rigol would be worth the money, even at 100MHz vs a hacked DS1054Z.

The DS1000Z series is really not satisfactory at 100MHz with more than 2 channels enabled, or at low signal levels, or when using the FFT - I especially had issues with the first 2, and they were factors in my decision to upgrade to a (launch-promo) RTB2004. That said, the DS1054Z is still at an amazing price for those with very tight budgets, and will do the job for many - I was never unhappy about buying mine!.

Given the free serial decodes (particularly important for us), I'll be suggesting at work that we grab one of the Siglents (hopefully I can nudge them towards the 200MHz option). As we can't really hack Rigol options when using them commercially, once you add the serial decoding option the price difference basically disappears even if you don't want the 100MHz bandwidth.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 22, 2017, 09:52:40 pm
Assuming that there aren't any major gotchas, I think that the alleged improvements over the Rigol would be worth the money, even at 100MHz vs a hacked DS1054Z.

The DS1000Z series is really not satisfactory at 100MHz with more than 2 channels enabled, or at low signal levels, or when using the FFT - I especially had issues with the first 2, and they were factors in my decision to upgrade to a (launch-promo) RTB2004. That said, the DS1054Z is still at an amazing price for those with very tight budgets, and will do the job for many - I was never unhappy about buying mine!.

Given the free serial decodes (particularly important for us), I'll be suggesting at work that we grab one of the Siglents (hopefully I can nudge them towards the 200MHz option). As we can't really hack Rigol options when using them commercially, once you add the serial decoding option the price difference basically disappears even if you don't want the 100MHz bandwidth.
IMHO there is a big difference between the hobbyist market (where the DS1054Z seems to have set the price benchmark) and scopes for commercial use. For commercial use you need a scope which is much better polished, tested and documented than what Rigol or Siglent push out of their factories. Dealing with bugs, measurement errors and unclear documentation will simply cost money in a commercial environment. Been there, done that, lesson learned. A commercial environment puts a lot more demands on a piece of equipment than a hobby lab.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Hydron on November 22, 2017, 10:12:49 pm
Well, most of the time it's software engineers using them to look at a slow I2C bus without bothering with ground clips! Cheap does the job in that case, as long as the memory depth is enough and there is the decode option.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: SaKhan on November 22, 2017, 11:09:12 pm
Assuming that there aren't any major gotchas, I think that the alleged improvements over the Rigol would be worth the money, even at 100MHz vs a hacked DS1054Z.

The DS1000Z series is really not satisfactory at 100MHz with more than 2 channels enabled, or at low signal levels, or when using the FFT - I especially had issues with the first 2, and they were factors in my decision to upgrade to a (launch-promo) RTB2004. That said, the DS1054Z is still at an amazing price for those with very tight budgets, and will do the job for many - I was never unhappy about buying mine!.

Given the free serial decodes (particularly important for us), I'll be suggesting at work that we grab one of the Siglents (hopefully I can nudge them towards the 200MHz option). As we can't really hack Rigol options when using them commercially, once you add the serial decoding option the price difference basically disappears even if you don't want the 100MHz bandwidth.
IMHO there is a big difference between the hobbyist market (where the DS1054Z seems to have set the price benchmark) and scopes for commercial use. For commercial use you need a scope which is much better polished, tested and documented than what Rigol or Siglent push out of their factories. Dealing with bugs, measurement errors and unclear documentation will simply cost money in a commercial environment. Been there, done that, lesson learned. A commercial environment puts a lot more demands on a piece of equipment than a hobby lab.
As with any other equipment for commercial use, a company should evaluate several different options and choose the most appropriate one without relying on the vendor's reputation. That's valid for both hardware and software. Anyway in this hobbyist price range I don't quite get the business logic behind having the same hardware and selling upgrade keys for half of the device price. In the Siglent's case I find the SDS-1104X-E price quite fair however they are asking somewhat too much for the 200 Mhz model. I think most people will buy the cheaper model because of budget constraints and/or in the hope of it eventually getting hacked. I also don't think that Rigol will come up with a similar hardware for a lot less in the next year.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 23, 2017, 12:51:01 am
IMHO there is a big difference between the hobbyist market (where the DS1054Z seems to have set the price benchmark) and scopes for commercial use. For commercial use you need a scope which is much better polished, tested and documented than what Rigol or Siglent push out of their factories. Dealing with bugs, measurement errors and unclear documentation will simply cost money in a commercial environment. Been there, done that, lesson learned. A commercial environment puts a lot more demands on a piece of equipment than a hobby lab.
I know of people who use the DS1054Z in a rather serious lab and development setting. They obviously aren't going to generate vital performance report with the instrument, but if it's enough for doing the odd job, it's enough.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Diabolo on November 23, 2017, 02:13:30 am
Hello,

For anyone who knows that Rigol can be hacked he can find the price Siglent 1104X-E and 1204X-E high, but for those who do not know that Rigol can be hacked then for him the price Siglent is correct.
One must think before saying that 1104X-E and 1204X-E Siglent is expensive!
As for hacker Siglent 1104X-E in 1204X-E, you will have to wait a long time if the 2 models are different internally!

In my opinion.
Diabolo
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 23, 2017, 02:21:19 am
Hello,

For anyone who knows that Rigol can be hacked he can find the price Siglent 1104X-E and 1204X-E high, but for those who do not know that Rigol can be hacked then for him the price Siglent is correct.
One must think before saying that 1104X-E and 1204X-E Siglent is expensive!
As for hacker Siglent 1104X-E in 1204X-E, you will have to wait a long time if the 2 models are different internally!

In my opinion.
Diabolo
If it were a regular consumer product like a mobile phone, sure. However, an oscilloscope is generally used by people who tinker with equipment one way or another. Moreover, the popularity of the DS1054Z can in no small part be attributed to the possibility of hacking it into a better model. Taking all this into account, it wouldn't be really correct to look at it as if the hack doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: JPortici on November 23, 2017, 06:39:16 am
The 100 MHz version is listed as a two channel version, though.

At these prices I guarantee you it's not going to be a DS1054Z killer. The 100 MHz version is over 25% more expensive than an easily upgraded DS1054Z

yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes
but if you really NEED the 100 MHz you'd know you WANT to have the 1 GS/s per channel in 2 channel modes or 500 MS/s in 4 channel mode
the decoder that doesn't use data from screen buffer to decode
the possibility to attach an AWG in the future, which can work with the scope
and maybe you want to look at canbus too?

if you want to put in terms of 25% more money, you get a scope that's 100% better when used at its fullest.
500MS/s vs 250MS/s per channel. that's 100% more.
14Mpts vs 6 Mpts per channel. that's more than 100% more
also CAN/LIN instead of the usuals only, call it whatever percent more
without even mentioning the rest of the wall of text..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 23, 2017, 08:45:10 am
yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes
but if you really NEED the 100 MHz you'd know you WANT to have the 1 GS/s per channel in 2 channel modes or 500 MS/s in 4 channel mode
the decoder that doesn't use data from screen buffer to decode
the possibility to attach an AWG in the future, which can work with the scope
and maybe you want to look at canbus too?

if you want to put in terms of 25% more money, you get a scope that's 100% better when used at its fullest.
500MS/s vs 250MS/s per channel. that's 100% more.
14Mpts vs 6 Mpts per channel. that's more than 100% more
also CAN/LIN instead of the usuals only, call it whatever percent more
without even mentioning the rest of the wall of text..
If we're going to be honest, very few people actually need those 100 MHz, let alone 200 MHz capabilities. If you absolutely needed those, you'd likely be looking at a different class of oscilloscopes. This is about an entry level oscilloscope for entry level people, or more advanced people with relatively simple needs. You can cram all the features in the world in there, the question is whether this specific group will care enough about them to lay out another $100, or even close to $450. Four channel scope versus four channel scope. Screen buffer? What's that?

If this thing would cost a little less, or the 200 MHz version would be more affordable, it would be much more of an open and shut case. They're not making it easy for people to side with the Siglent.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: JPortici on November 23, 2017, 08:55:52 am
not really, your typical MCU GPIO has a sufficienly fast risetime that can cause signal integrity problems if you want to use higher speed SPI peripherals for example.
your average hobbyist want to play with audio dacs, with canbus and other things that you may find advanced but really aren't, just need proper tools and understanding
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2017, 09:20:07 am
if you want to put in terms of 25% more money, you get a scope that's 100% better when used at its fullest.

Only to you.

Most of that "wall of text" is just that, a wall of text. Gobbledygook to most of the hobby world.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 23, 2017, 09:25:28 am
Only to you.

Most of that "wall of text" is just that, a wall of text. Gobbledygook to most of the hobby world.
One thing hobbyists understand well is that larger numbers are better. However, the 200 MHz model so much more expensive, that they'll start wondering whether 200 MHz is twice as good as 100 Mhz.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: stj on November 23, 2017, 09:57:55 am
something not mentioned, at that price it also has to start competing with used pro-gear on ebay.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 23, 2017, 10:24:24 am
not really, your typical MCU GPIO has a sufficienly fast risetime that can cause signal integrity problems if you want to use higher speed SPI peripherals for example.
That doesn't matter. As long as the frequency you are looking at doesn't exceed the bandwidth limitations of the scope then you will get a signal into the oscilloscope you can use for decoding. If you want to look at signal integrity issues you'll probably need a >500MHz scope and probes which don't load the signals too much otherwise you won't get a meaningfull measurement.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Hydron on November 23, 2017, 11:46:14 am
I'll be happy if it doesn't do this if you have 3+ channels enabled and you feed it something with fast edges:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372810)
For reference, the same thing on a faster tek scope, with 150MHz limit on for as similar a bandwidth as I can easily manage (also averaging, but this only changed the trace noise):
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372814)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 23, 2017, 11:54:33 am
The Rigol will reduce the sampling rate whenever you activate more channels. It's a well known limitation.

In your sceeenshots it's sampling at only 250 MSa/s and capturing just 30 points. With so little information, the Sin(x)/x interpolation does that.

Switch the display mode to "dots" instead of "vectors" and you'll see what the A/D converter is actually sampling.

The Tek is sampling at 5 Gsa/s according to the datasheet. And its seems it's really _per channel_.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Hydron on November 23, 2017, 12:09:34 pm
I understand all this, I was just pointing out the limitation of the cheapest option, and that signal integrity can be an issue due to the compromises made.
That said, I'm surprised just how poorly it deals with the Sin(x)/x interpolation when running close to nyquist (it also looks nearly as bad with Sin(x)/x off, including the pre-shoot etc).
I would be very interested to see a similar test made on the Siglent 200MHz (it may have already been done somewhere in another thread) - at 200MHz/500MSa/s it's running at the same BW/sample rate ratio as the rigol is at 100MHz/250MSa/s.

The tek is indeed running at 5Gsa/s per channel - I included the reference to show that the source was actually nice and square to begin with. I also know that it's not the 50R feedthrough causing issues, as I tested it on the tek running in 1M mode.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 23, 2017, 12:12:23 pm
I understand all this, I was just pointing out the limitation of the cheapest option, and that signal integrity can be an issue due to the compromises made.
That said, I'm surprised just how poorly it deals with the Sin(x)/x interpolation when running close to nyquist. I would be very interested to see a similar test made on the Siglent 200MHz (it may have already been done somewhere in another thread) - at 200MHz/500MSa/s it's running at the same BW/sample rate ratio at the rigol at 100MHz/250MSa/s.
I own both, and Leo Bodnar's pulse generator. I'll capture some screenshots this evening if I have time.

Quote
The tek is indeed running at 5Gsa/s per channel - I included the reference to show that the source was actually nice and square to begin with. I also know that it's not the 50R feedthrough causing issues, as I tested it on the tek running in 1M mode.
But in this case it's a limitation due to the sampling rate. Switch to "dots" and you'll see the limited view the Rigol must deal with.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Hydron on November 23, 2017, 12:15:10 pm
My screenshots were done with Leo's generator also - it's a fun and handy bit of kit to have around.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2017, 01:25:48 pm
I understand all this, I was just pointing out the limitation of the cheapest option, and that signal integrity can be an issue due to the compromises made.

Sure, but have you compared that to other devices in this price range? It's not a valid criticism of the Rigol unless you do a side-by-side comparison with others.

I'm surprised just how poorly it deals with the Sin(x)/x interpolation when running close to nyquist (it also looks nearly as bad with Sin(x)/x off, including the pre-shoot etc).

Sin(x)/x isn't magic, it's a theoretical thing that only works perfectly if you apply it to every sample in the entire waveform (which obviously no oscilloscope can do).

What you see on the Rigol isn't a bug, it's exactly what the math says will happen if you only apply Sin(x)/x to a few samples on either side of the pixel of interest.

Assuming the Siglent will be better than this might backfire on you. The 200MHz model has the exact same ratio of samples to bandwidth as the Rigol.

...if you have 3+ channels enabled

Another red herring. With more channels enabled the Rigol reduces the sample rate so this is expected behavior, predicted by the math.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Hydron on November 23, 2017, 02:43:02 pm
What you see on the Rigol isn't a bug, it's exactly what the math says will happen if you only apply Sin(x)/x to a few samples on either side of the pixel of interest.

Assuming the Siglent will be better than this might backfire on you. The 200MHz model has the exact same ratio of samples to bandwidth as the Rigol.
I did say that it would be interesting to see how the Siglent does at the same ratio - this isn't exactly assuming it's better! It sounds like borjam will be doing this test under the same conditions as I did with the Rigol, which is excellent (and might help with the choice between the 100MHz and 200MHz models).
I understand that Sin(x)/x artifacts are unavoidable due to the sample rate/bandwidth ratio, rather than being a Rigol issue, but was surprised at just how bad they were when I did the test (and that some pre-shoot remained even after turning it off).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 23, 2017, 02:56:39 pm
I understand all this, I was just pointing out the limitation of the cheapest option, and that signal integrity can be an issue due to the compromises made.

Sure, but have you compared that to other devices in this price range? It's not a valid criticism of the Rigol unless you do a side-by-side comparison with others.

I'm surprised just how poorly it deals with the Sin(x)/x interpolation when running close to nyquist (it also looks nearly as bad with Sin(x)/x off, including the pre-shoot etc).

Sin(x)/x isn't magic, it's a theoretical thing that only works perfectly if you apply it to every sample in the entire waveform (which obviously no oscilloscope can do).

What you see on the Rigol isn't a bug, it's exactly what the math says will happen if you only apply Sin(x)/x to a few samples on either side of the pixel of interest.

Assuming the Siglent will be better than this might backfire on you. The 200MHz model has the exact same ratio of samples to bandwidth as the Rigol.

...if you have 3+ channels enabled

Another red herring. With more channels enabled the Rigol reduces the sample rate so this is expected behavior, predicted by the math.

In Rigol it is bug or better say, design error when they implement Sinc filter.
Violating simpliest rule: Draw via real sampled points.
But no, Riglol flush these to garbage.  They have started this math error many years ago first with DS1052E and never corrected.

It was proofed with DS1052E and data can still find from blog history, perhaps.
They repeat same kind of bug again with DS1054Z. 

One example can find here. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/msg563621/#msg563621)

Rigol do not listen anybody. Perhaps they think "who cares" because sales is ok. They care sales, it same if they sell chickens ( I wonder why they do not, perhaps profit is even better) or osciolloscopes. Who cares if sales is ok.

Personally I have not seen this kind of fake in any other oscilloscope, never and I have really some experience.  Take Tek, take what ever Keysight - Agilent - HP, LeCroy,  take what ever chinese Owon, chinese GoodWill, or as far as I know what ever other <long list>  than Rigol you can not find this bug.

One nice bug in Rigol is junk mask test. Speed depends test result. Oh well, then you write down how many times test pass and fail (you read these counters).  Then you show your statistics and first who know this bug can shoot down your statistics to garbage. Also this is small thing but... again. This is test and measurement equipment. Not entertainment TV (or is it - just for fun play).

But because I am biased (1% *), because my side hobby is also selling things and not only doing real work and hobby with electronics I do not add more things here.

*) My main interest is hobby and work. only < 1% income have any relation with selling Siglent or what ever (exept when I sell myself). But, yes I'm biased, but owners who hate or fall in love with some equipments they are of course totally free from any kind of bias (buuhh...) - as can see here..  ;)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 23, 2017, 03:23:09 pm
Come on guys, can we for once have a low budget scope thread without the same discussion yet again? We know how you feel, we don't need to hear it again.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 23, 2017, 04:34:53 pm
Exactly! We have a limited number of 100Mhz. Write me in PM if you are interested so we can give priority to this forum.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 23, 2017, 05:23:05 pm
What you see on the Rigol isn't a bug, it's exactly what the math says will happen if you only apply Sin(x)/x to a few samples on either side of the pixel of interest.
AFAIK other people have already proven that the way sin(x)/x interpolation is implemented on the DS1054Z is wrong and thus makes a signal look worse than it should be.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2017, 06:03:24 pm
What you see on the Rigol isn't a bug, it's exactly what the math says will happen if you only apply Sin(x)/x to a few samples on either side of the pixel of interest.
AFAIK other people have already proven that the way sin(x)/x interpolation is implemented on the DS1054Z is wrong and thus makes a signal look worse than it should be.

Yes, but that's not really the question. We know you love to bash Rigol, etc., but the real question is if any of the others are better, right?

I'll start you off with the GW Instek 1000B. This is an oscilloscope which is often held up as a beacon of correctness around here but guess what?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SXZk2tsQ4g&t=34m30s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SXZk2tsQ4g&t=34m30s)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 23, 2017, 06:16:46 pm
What you see on the Rigol isn't a bug, it's exactly what the math says will happen if you only apply Sin(x)/x to a few samples on either side of the pixel of interest.
AFAIK other people have already proven that the way sin(x)/x interpolation is implemented on the DS1054Z is wrong and thus makes a signal look worse than it should be.
Yes, but that's not really the question.  question is if any of the others are better, right?
Ofcourse the other ones are better! sin(x)/x is the industry standard method to do signal reconstruction on digital oscilloscopes for decades. It is well documented so there is absolutely no reason to do it wrong. I don't know any DSO which does sin(x)/x wrong except for the DS1054Z.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2017, 06:47:49 pm
Ofcourse the other ones are better! sin(x)/x is the industry standard method to do signal reconstruction on digital oscilloscopes for decades. It is well documented so there is absolutely no reason to do it wrong.

Well that proves it then! Nobody else could possibly fail so long as it's written down somewhere!!

I don't know any DSO which does sin(x)/x wrong except for the DS1054Z.

Except... it doesn't really do it wrong. That's just a thing in Rigol hater's imaginations.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/msg563621/#msg563621 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/msg563621/#msg563621)

Sin(x)/x works perfectly on the the DS1054Z when it's turned on. The signal only aliases when you turn it off.

Question: What sane person would turn it off? The whole point is to see reconstructed signals on screen.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 23, 2017, 07:02:45 pm
Ofcourse the other ones are better! sin(x)/x is the industry standard method to do signal reconstruction on digital oscilloscopes for decades. It is well documented so there is absolutely no reason to do it wrong.
Well that proves it then! Nobody else could possibly fail so long as it's written down somewhere!!
I don't know any DSO which does sin(x)/x wrong except for the DS1054Z.
Except... it doesn't really do it wrong. That's just a thing in Rigol hater's imaginations.
Look at the image Hydron posted earlier to see where you are wrong. That square wave shouldn't look like that at all. On the DS1054Z it looks like it has a serious amount of jitter which just isn't there. Look at a 40MHz square wave (with less than 60ps rise/fall times) which is equally far from the Nyquist frequency on a 200MHz 1Gs/s scope compared to the square wave Hydron shows on a DS1054Z:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372887;image)

BTW emphasizing on Rigol haters isn't going to make your point any stronger (quite the opposite). The facts are the facts and everyone has to make their own decission on whether they buy something or not.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Hydron on November 23, 2017, 07:42:15 pm
I suspect it is a combination of some >nyquist frequencies getting through the filter, and something odd going on with the reconstruction, though I don't have proof of the latter. That is why I am interested in how the Siglent does when running at 200MHz & 500MSa/s - for all I know it could have similar behavior!

Anyway, I was mainly trying to point out why the premium for the SDS1104X-E over the DS1054Z might be worth it even at 100MHz. Some will be fine with the cheaper Rigol; others will get better value going for something else. Sorry for not doing it more carefully - I think these cheap, accessible tools are great and while I pointed out a limitation in one, it was intended to be in the context of things to consider in making a purchasing decision, not as an attack!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 23, 2017, 07:50:28 pm
I suspect it is a combination of some >nyquist frequencies getting through the filter, and something odd going on with the reconstruction, though I don't have proof of the latter. That is why I am interested in how the Siglent does when running at 200MHz & 500MSa/s - for all I know it could have similar behavior!

Time will tell.

Anyway, I was mainly trying to point out why the premium for the SDS1104X-E over the DS1054Z might be worth it even at 100MHz.

Sure.

In other news: Some people need to fit five bales of hay in the back of their car so a Ford Fiesta isn't suitable for them.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 23, 2017, 08:45:42 pm
That is why I am interested in how the Siglent does when running at 200MHz & 500MSa/s - for all I know it could have similar behavior!
That's the same spec as the existing 2 ch SDS1202X-E.

Do remember that these 4 channel X-E's have the same inputs but doubled, 2 ADC's and 2 lots of 14 Mpts memory.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MrW0lf on November 23, 2017, 10:14:31 pm
What you see on the Rigol isn't a bug, it's exactly what the math says will happen if you only apply Sin(x)/x to a few samples on either side of the pixel of interest.

Nope. Implementation is not correct Sinc implementation. Direct proof: Impossible to determine analog bw of Rigol DS1052E with pulse gen method:
https://youtu.be/uBYMePUFinQ?t=20m43s
On normal scope this method works flawless and various ack modes and sampling rate have minimal effect on end result, if signal is repetitive and can be averaged.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Hydron on November 23, 2017, 10:25:28 pm
That's the same spec as the existing 2 ch SDS1202X-E.

Do remember that these 4 channel X-E's have the same inputs but doubled, 2 ADC's and 2 lots of 14 Mpts memory.
Yeah that's what I understood, I just haven't seen how the SDS1202X-E does in this situation either (info may be in another thread, I had a quick look but didn't see it). Are the display/interpolation algorithms unchanged between 2 and 4 channel versions?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 23, 2017, 10:32:01 pm
There we go. This is a Siglent SDS1202X-E with the coupling problem (not yet corrected).

Leo's pulse generator is connected to a T BNC connector, and the other end of the T has a BNC-SMA adapter and a 50 ohm terminator.

I have taken screenshots at 500 and 250 Msa/s. I have reduced the memory depth to the minimum and in order to go down to 250 Msa/s I have used a slower timebase. The screenshots have been taken with SINGLE trigger in all cases.

So here we have three sets of three files. 250 Msa/s, 500 Msa/s and 1 Gsa/s. For each one of them, a dots display, a vector display with sin(x)/x and a vector display with no sin(x)/x.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 23, 2017, 10:54:15 pm
Some Rigol ("upgraded" DS1074Z)

Interestingly, there is quite a lot of jitter at 500 and especially 200 Msa/s. I have made eye diagrams apart from the dots, sin(x)/x and no sin(x)/x.

(Corrected, at 500 Msa/s it's not jitter, but an artifact of reconstruction). However, I think there is a problem at 250 Msa/s, probably due to aliasing.

I would say that this scope has a very serious issue when sharing the A/D converter with more than one channel. The Siglent behaves much better.
Unless I have made any mistake, in which case I will be grateful for any corrections!


I would say that the Rigol has a serious aliasing problem at 250 Msa/s.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 23, 2017, 11:00:44 pm
And eye diagrams on the Siglent, 500 Msa/s.

Again, enabling and disabling sin(x)/x

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 23, 2017, 11:10:15 pm


I have taken screenshots at 500 and 250 Msa/s. I have reduced the memory depth to the minimum and in order to go down to 250 Msa/s I have used a slower timebase. The screenshots have been taken with SINGLE trigger in all cases.


Also you can do single shot and in stop mode you can switch between vector or Sinc interpolation or turn it to without interpolation - just dots. There you can see how it solve Sinc. (also Siglent do not draw extra fake dots as some other scopes may do in "dots" mode).  Reducing sample speed and using window zoom you may find some results where it can visually see more clearly.  In these images we can see there is also real  overshoots and not only Sinc made overshoots what are other things. (front end BW filtering do not have enough steep stop before Nyquist for reject aliasing.)

What is miss is: True sample dots highlight On/Off function  when Sinc or Vectors in use.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 23, 2017, 11:20:59 pm
Also you can do single shot and in stop mode you can switch between vector or Sinc interpolation or turn it to without interpolation - just dots. There you can see how it solve Sinc. (also Siglent do not draw extra fake dots as some other scopes may do in "dots" mode).  Reducing sample speed and using window zoom you may find some results where it can visually see more clearly.  In these images we can see there is also real  overshoots and not only Sinc made overshoots what are other things. (front end BW filtering do not have enough steep stop before Nyquist for reject aliasing.)

What is miss is: True sample dots highlight On/Off function  when Sinc or Vectors in use.
True.

Now I see that the Rigol draws fake dots when I enable or disable sin(x)/x, which is silly. Dots are dots, unless I am terribly wrong it should represent just A/D sampled values. Interpolation only makes sense in vector mode.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2017, 12:35:45 am
I overlaid the Rigol waveform on the Siglent waveform in a single image. As you can see they're identical when you view the wave with the same settings.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372960;image)

I would say that this scope has a very serious issue when sharing the A/D converter with more than one channel.

There's more than one channel enabled in the image above...  :popcorn:

The Siglent behaves much better.

There's a major difference: The Rigol drops down to 250Ms/sec when you turn on the third channel, the Siglent doesn't (because it's only 2 channels).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372936;image)

At 5ns per division there's 1.25 samples per division on screen. I'm not sure how they're aligning the trigger point so exactly but it looks like they're not offsetting the rest of the wave to match. The "jitter" looks to be about 1/1.25 of a square.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 24, 2017, 06:39:12 am
I overlaid the Rigol waveform on the Siglent waveform in a single image. As you can see they're identical when you view the wave with the same settings.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372960;image)

I would say that this scope has a very serious issue when sharing the A/D converter with more than one channel.



There's more than one channel enabled in the image above...  :popcorn:

The Siglent behaves much better.

There's a major difference: The Rigol drops down to 250Ms/sec when you turn on the third channel, the Siglent doesn't (because it's only 2 channels).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372936;image)

At 5ns per division there's 1.25 samples per division on screen. I'm not sure how they're aligning the trigger point so exactly but it looks like they're not offsetting the rest of the wave to match. The "jitter" looks to be about 1/1.25 of a square.

Identical?  This is total false.  If you use identical input then they can compare.  Do these image have  exactly same signal?

Then

Quote
There's a major difference: The Rigol drops down to 250Ms/sec when you turn on the third channel, the Siglent doesn't (because it's only 2 channels).

Reason is not because Siglent have only two channel. Root reason is construction.
When max 1GSa/s Siglent have 4 channel on it do not drop to 250MSa/s.

Rigol construction is cheapest possible:
1ADC1MEM/4

Siglent 4 channel construction is semi cheap:
1ADC1MEM/2 + 1ADC1MEM/2

If compare Siglent 100MHz 4 channel model and Rigol 100MHz 4 channel model:

Rigol  1Channel on,  1GSa/s max mem 24M (officially without option 12M)
Rigol  2Channel on,  500MSa/s 12M both channels. (without option 6M)
Rigol  3Channels on, 250MSa/s 6M all channels (without option 3M)
Rigol  4Channel on, 250MSa/s  6M  all channels. (without option 3M)

Siglent 1Channel on, 1GSa/s max mem 14M
Siglent 2Channel on, 1GSa/s max mem 14M both channels
Siglent 4Channel on, 500MSa/s max mem 7M for all channels.

Some other oscilloscope may have other construction
example 1ADC1MEM + 1ADC1MEM + 1ADC1MEM + 1ADC1MEM
this kind of oscilloscope have always same sampling speed and memory independent of how many channels is simultaneously in use.  This kind of construction is of course most expensive (And best).

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: HalFET on November 24, 2017, 06:51:40 am
Even Keysight and Tek share AD converters usually. Keep in mind you also need the hardware to support that converter and to process the data from it. These things run hot, are power hungry, and dump up to 8 or 16 Gbps of data into your FPGA and memory, not to mention the timing constraints. So it's perfectly reasonable to share ADCs between channels if you're short on money.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 24, 2017, 06:54:58 am
Early next week I will be able to do a test video of the SDS1204X-E and SDS1104X-E. I will use the SDG6052X (video already online for it) and run frequency test on multiple channels as 1+2 and 1+3. Let see what will happen  :popcorn:
At max 200MHz standard cable quality shouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 06:57:36 am
Identical?  This is total false.  If you use identical input then they can compare.  Do these image have  exactly same signal?
The signal is the same, yes. Leo Brodnar's pulse generator connected to a T BNC adapter with a 50 ohm terminator.

I tried to compare the behaviors of both at the same sampling rate. The eye diagram is a different story, though, I can't do it at 250 Msa/s with the Siglent.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 07:02:04 am
Even Keysight and Tek share AD converters usually. Keep in mind you also need the hardware to support that converter and to process the data from it. These things run hot, are power hungry, and dump up to 8 or 16 Gbps of data into your FPGA and memory, not to mention the timing constraints. So it's perfectly reasonable to share ADCs between channels if you're short on money.
I understand that it's perfectly reasonable, but I think the Rigol has an aliasing problem at 250 Msa/s. This pulse generator is a nasty source for this kind of test because it has lots of harmonics. Remember that the rise and fall times are less than 60 ps.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 07:13:56 am
I overlaid the Rigol waveform on the Siglent waveform in a single image. As you can see they're identical when you view the wave with the same settings.
My apologies, it's true at 500 Msa/s and it's an effect of interpolation, not jitter. I was about to go to bed when I wrote that.

The Rigol has a jitter problem at 250 Msa/s, though. I think an anti aliasing filter is missing.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: JPortici on November 24, 2017, 07:18:59 am
Anyway, I was mainly trying to point out why the premium for the SDS1104X-E over the DS1054Z might be worth it even at 100MHz.

good luck with some dudes.
a premium that gives you access to better equipment in the long run, such as decodes you don't think you'll need, an AWG that doesn't look terrible on paper (is it worth it? we'll see) and an MSO option.
but the pricetag on the other is lower.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: 2N3055 on November 24, 2017, 08:01:25 am
I don't have Leo's gen.. (It's on a list :-)
This is my old Hameg 8030-6, at 11 something MHz.. Horrible square..

But let's put that on the side...

Running 4 ch, no Jitter...  Dot mode and vector mode...

When running 1GS an 500 GS/sec it is bit cleaner but looks the same.

You should run self cal to see if it helps. I realized that it is necessary to do self cal often.

Regards,

Sinisa
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 24, 2017, 08:28:55 am
I don't have Leo's gen.. (It's on a list :-)
This is my old Hameg 8030-6, at 11 something MHz.. Horrible square..

But let's put that on the side...

Running 4 ch, no Jitter...  Dot mode and vector mode...

When running 1GS an 500 GS/sec it is bit cleaner but looks the same.

You should run self cal to see if it helps. I realized that it is necessary to do self cal often.

Regards,

Sinisa

As can see it can handle signal what do not have so high frequency components. This signal do not have. Signal rise and fall times are very slow. 250MSa/s even with false Sin(x)/x can handle this kind of signal thumbs down. Sample interval is 4ns.  Serious problems start with much faster signal rise/fall times.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2017, 08:51:23 am
I shouldn't, NDA and all that......

SDS1104X-E
Source: SDG1032X 10 MHz terminated into 50 \$\Omega\$ feed-throughs for each channel

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=373060;image)

NO visible difference between SinX and X interpolation
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 08:54:14 am
Yes, that's 1 Gsa/s. It gets interesting when you go to 500 Msa/s.

Note that I'm not criticizing the SDS1202X-E. sin(x)/x interpolation invents data of course. But it's a similar effect to that of an analog oscilloscope "filling the gaps"
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2017, 08:58:03 am
Yes, that's 1 Gsa/s. It gets interesting when you go to 500 Msa/s.

Note that I'm not criticizing the SDS1202X-E. sin(x)/x interpolation invents data of course. But it's a similar effect to that of an analog oscilloscope "filling the gaps"
Is there a reason why your screenshots are done with AC trigger coupling ?  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 24, 2017, 09:02:12 am
I am yet to read the manual but will the Siglent SDS 1000X-E series incorporate a real time clock and in turn allocate time and date stamps to recorded or saved events in stand alone operation, this is important as I regularly monitor systems for glitches and require time stamped events for correlation, leaving a laptop connected and running on a remote site for this particular purpose is not always practical.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 09:11:55 am
Is there a reason why your screenshots are done with AC trigger coupling ?  :-//
Not at all, distraction. Should it matter much? I can try with DC trigger coupling. Anyway the pulse generator signal is really symmetric, so there shouldn't be a difference.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: 2N3055 on November 24, 2017, 09:26:44 am
As can see it can handle signal what do not have so high frequency components. This signal do not have. Signal rise and fall times are very slow. 250MSa/s even with false Sin(x)/x can handle this kind of signal thumbs down. Sample interval is 4ns.  Serious problems start with much faster signal rise/fall times.

I wasn't talking about ringing on rising and falling edges. Every Sin(x)/x interpolation will have those artifacts if fed signal with frequency content above the Nyquist limit...  There is no replacement for 10x times oversampling and tight filtering.. If you look into his captures, Siglent has worse ringing than Rigol at 500 MS/sec...

I was referring to the 5ns jitter on the falling edges of the pulse.. That is something not proportional to signal speed, quite the opposite, with signals that have slow edges jitter will be worse..  Again, there is no jitter on the right side of the screen..

Screen from a new one looks very good, but one with 500 MS/sec would be interesting one, to see how it looks worst case. Best case with 1 GS/sec looks perfect on Rigol too..
Anyways it does look promising and definitely is a step forward. It has potential to be a good scope.
It will be interesting to see how will it compare with new Rigols that will come out...

It is always a good thing when competitors come out with good product. In the end user are getting good products, from one company or another..

Regards,
Sinisa

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2017, 09:28:31 am
I am yet to read the manual but will the Siglent SDS 1000X-E series incorporate a real time clock and in turn allocate time and date stamps to recorded or saved events in stand alone operation, this is important as I regularly monitor systems for glitches and require time stamped events for correlation, leaving a laptop connected and running on a remote site for this particular purpose is not always practical.
Sorry Muttley the 1kX-E series don't have a RTC.  :(
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 09:35:33 am
Sorry Muttley the 1kX-E series don't have a RTC.  :(
So, dear Linux based oscilloscope makers.

Having a Linux system inside it would be trivial to add NTP synchronization or, in case you want to avoid having another daemon running (understandable), run ntpdate to adjust the date and time.

It's simple and, assuming it will be ntpdate, you have two options.

First: using the NTP servers provided by DHCP. Some DHCP servers provide that information.

Second: in case DHCP doesn't provide NTP servers, use the NTP Pool project.

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER HARDCODE IP ADDRESSES OF NTP SERVERS. ALWAYS USE THE OFFICIAL NAMES

http://www.pool.ntp.org/en/use.html (http://www.pool.ntp.org/en/use.html)

Doing this, which is really trivial, you can have the option of an accurate timestamp on your screenshots. It only needs the Ethernet plugged.



Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2017, 09:39:05 am
Yes, that's 1 Gsa/s. It gets interesting when you go to 500 Msa/s.
Pick the difference.....if you can.

Same setup as previously except channels 1 and 2 for 500 Msa/s.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=373065;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=373060)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 24, 2017, 09:48:24 am
Sorry Muttley the 1kX-E series don't have a RTC.  :(

I thought one of the previous series did have an onboard clock with time stamps for recorded events, it's a shame they didn't include one on this series.   :o ::)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: 2N3055 on November 24, 2017, 09:49:58 am
That looks good...

Looking forward to see reports from the field when it gets released..

@ Borjam : NTP is not necesary.
1 USD RTC is good enough to keep time of day. What is complicated and needs effort and resources is nanosecond scale time-stamping at scopes time-base timing resolution. And that is what is needed to be useful. Exact TOD is not that important as is relative time-stamps from beginning of capture at high resolution..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2017, 09:54:48 am
Sorry Muttley the 1kX-E series don't have a RTC.  :(

I thought one of the previous series did have an onboard clock with time stamps for recorded events, it's shame they didn't include one on this series.   :o ::)
You are quite right on both points.
But to add the things the X series have; bigger display, RTC, 50 \$\Omega\$ inputs, etc will lift the price so there is little differential between the 2 series.
You can never please everybody.  :(
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 09:55:32 am
@ Borjam : NTP is not necesary.
You avoid the pain of adjusting date and time with the oscilloscope knobs :)

Maybe a luxury, but a trivial one to implement! ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 09:59:47 am
Pick the difference.....if you can.

Same setup as previously except channels 1 and 2 for 500 Msa/s.
But not the same pulse generator as mine, which has a lot of high frequency content.

Do you think DC coupled triggering will make a difference? I'll try later.

Note that I'm not criticizing it, as far as I know this is to be expected due to interpolation in the presence of a lot of high frequency components. Leo Bodnar's pulse generator has a rise time of 40 ps or better.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2017, 10:17:41 am
Pick the difference.....if you can.

Same setup as previously except channels 1 and 2 for 500 Msa/s.
But not the same pulse generator as mine, which has a lot of high frequency content.
Sure but the SDG1000X is the fastest I have ATM.....can't afford the SDG6000X.  :'(

Quote
Do you think DC coupled triggering will make a difference? I'll try later.
It didn't when I checked, well not for the 1 Gsa/s screenshot.

Quote
Note that I'm not criticizing it, as far as I know this is to be expected due to interpolation in the presence of a lot of high frequency components. Leo Bodnar's pulse generator has a rise time of 40 ps or better.
Yep, I've been watching Leo's thread, cool little pulse gen.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 24, 2017, 10:31:01 am
Sure but the SDG1000X is the fastest I have ATM.....can't afford the SDG6000X.  :'(

It didn't when I checked, well not for the 1 Gsa/s screenshot.

Yep, I've been watching Leo's thread, cool little pulse gen.  :)
I hate how this forum tends to slowly erode away the lack of need for all sorts of things you didn't even know existed. I mean, a fast pulse generator? I couldn't even figure out why I'd want a signal generator two years ago. Now I nearly must have one of these pulse generators to give the oscilloscope a workout.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 11:04:22 am
I hate how this forum tends to slowly erode away the lack of need for all sorts of things you didn't even know existed. I mean, a fast pulse generator? I couldn't even figure out why I'd want a signal generator two years ago. Now I nearly must have one of these pulse generators to give the oscilloscope a workout.

Well, a fast pulse generator can be a nice learning tool. For example you can experiment with TDR. Such a fast pulse generator can be
useful to learn about the limitations of our instruments as well.

And it's not expensive at all.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2017, 11:06:03 am
I overlaid the Rigol waveform on the Siglent waveform in a single image. As you can see they're identical when you view the wave with the same settings.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372960;image)

Identical?  This is total false.

Huh? Add a twist of the brightness knob and a tweak of the probe compensation and those two are identical.

Rigol construction is cheapest possible:
1ADC1MEM/4

Siglent 4 channel construction is semi cheap:
1ADC1MEM/2 + 1ADC1MEM/2
And this is reflected in the price. No official price yet but so far it seems like it will cost about $250 more.

(And given that the Rigol is currently selling for $328, that's a lot more...)

If compare Siglent 100MHz 4 channel model and Rigol 100MHz 4 channel model:

Are you allowed to do that, given the price difference?

Maybe a comparison with a similarly priced Siglent would be more relevant:

Rigol  1Channel on,  1GSa/s max mem 24M (officially without option 12M)
Rigol  2Channel on,  500MSa/s 12M both channels. (without option 6M)

Siglent 1Channel on, 1GSa/s max mem 14M
Siglent 2Channel on, 500MSa/s max mem 7M for all channels.

So... identical.

Except with the Rigol I have a bit more memory and another two channels when I need them.

(which I often do)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 24, 2017, 11:08:35 am
Well, a fast pulse generator can be a nice learning tool. For example you can experiment with TDR. Such a fast pulse generator can be
useful to learn about the limitations of our instruments as well.

And it's not expensive at all.
There are a lot of not very expensive nice to haves, but added up it's still a lot.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 11:10:48 am
Add a twist of the brightness knob and a tweak of the probe compensation and those two are identical.  :-//
Results are pretty similar, indeed, showing the artifacts of the interpolation.

No probes here, I have used a BNC "T" adapter. One of the ends is directly connected to the pulse generator (no cables, the PCB has a male BNC connector) and the other one to a 50 ohm SMA terminator via a BNC-SMA adapter.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 24, 2017, 11:14:08 am
(Corrected, at 500 Msa/s it's not jitter, but an artifact of reconstruction). However, I think there is a problem at 250 Msa/s, probably due to aliasing.
I would say that the Rigol has a serious aliasing problem at 250 Msa/s.
No because the fundamental frequency is way below the Nyquist frequency (a factor 12.5 to be precise) and that shouldn't be a problem at all for properly implemented sin (x)/x reconstruction. Aliasing artefacts may distort the edges but it shouldn't distort the fundamental frequency of the signal. At 250Ms/s the Nyquist frequency is 125MHz. That means you can display the fundamental, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th and  some of the 11th harmonic of a 10MHz square wave. A DSO should have no problem showing a decent square wave in these conditions.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2017, 11:14:46 am
Well, a fast pulse generator can be a nice learning tool. For example you can experiment with TDR. Such a fast pulse generator can be
useful to learn about the limitations of our instruments as well.

And it's not expensive at all.
There are a lot of not very expensive nice to haves, but added up it's still a lot.
One small advantage of being a distributor......oh, that's for stock dear.  ;D  :-DD
Not sure how long that will continue to work.  :scared:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 11:17:31 am
Well, a fast pulse generator can be a nice learning tool. For example you can experiment with TDR. Such a fast pulse generator can be
useful to learn about the limitations of our instruments as well.

And it's not expensive at all.
There are a lot of not very expensive nice to haves, but added up it's still a lot.
One small advantage of being a distributor......oh, that's for stock dear.  ;D  :-DD
Not sure how long that will continue to work.  :scared:
I'm talking about Leo Bodnar's pulse generator.

http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=124&products_id=295 (http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=124&products_id=295)

50 pound sterling didn't make me poorer!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2017, 11:22:38 am
(Corrected, at 500 Msa/s it's not jitter, but an artifact of reconstruction). However, I think there is a problem at 250 Msa/s, probably due to aliasing.
I would say that the Rigol has a serious aliasing problem at 250 Msa/s.
No because the fundamental frequency is way below the Nyquist frequency (a factor 12.5 to be precise) and that shouldn't be a problem at all for properly implemented sin (x)/x reconstruction. Aliasing artefacts may distort the edges but it shouldn't distort the fundamental frequency of the signal. At 250Ms/s the Nyquist frequency is 125MHz. That means you can display the fundamental, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th and  some of the 11th harmonic of a 10MHz square wave. A DSO should have no problem showing a decent square wave in these conditions.

It seems to be something to do with the way it aligns the (reconstructed) signal with the trigger point. Remember that one sample period is 80% of a square on screen in that image (about the same as the width of the "jitter") so they must be doing some sort of fiddling to align the waves on the trigger point to make it look pretty.

I don't know why the "jitter" only happens with 3+ channels. Could be a firmware bug.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 24, 2017, 11:25:02 am
(Corrected, at 500 Msa/s it's not jitter, but an artifact of reconstruction). However, I think there is a problem at 250 Msa/s, probably due to aliasing.
I would say that the Rigol has a serious aliasing problem at 250 Msa/s.
No because the fundamental frequency is way below the Nyquist frequency (a factor 12.5 to be precise) and that shouldn't be a problem at all for properly implemented sin (x)/x reconstruction. Aliasing artefacts may distort the edges but it shouldn't distort the fundamental frequency of the signal. At 250Ms/s the Nyquist frequency is 125MHz. That means you can display the fundamental, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th and  some of the 11th harmonic of a 10MHz square wave. A DSO should have no problem showing a decent square wave in these conditions.

It seems to be something to do with the way it aligns the (reconstructed) signal with the trigger point. Remember that one sample period is 80% of a square on screen in that image (about the same as the width of the "jitter") so they must be doing some sort of fiddling to align the waves on the trigger point to make it look pretty.

I don't know why the "jitter" only happens with 3+ channels. Could be a firmware bug.
You should increase the frequency. It wouldn't surprise me if the same thing happens with a 20MHz square wave @500Ms/s and a 40MHz square wave @1Gs/s.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2017, 11:35:03 am
I don't know why the "jitter" only happens with 3+ channels. Could be a firmware bug.
You should increase the frequency. It wouldn't surprise me if the same thing happens with a 20MHz square wave @500Ms/s and a 40MHz square wave @1Gs/s.

I don't have the pulse generator but I'm betting it doesn't (the "jitter" would still be there at 10Mhz, just half as wide)

Can anybody try it...?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 11:39:01 am
You should increase the frequency. It wouldn't surprise me if the same thing happens with a 20MHz square wave @500Ms/s and a 40MHz square wave @1Gs/s.
I don't have the means for that. Leo's "pulser" has a fixed frequency of 10 MHz.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 24, 2017, 11:44:31 am
I overlaid the Rigol waveform on the Siglent waveform in a single image. As you can see they're identical when you view the wave with the same settings.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372960;image)

Identical?  This is total false.

Huh? Add a twist of the brightness knob and a tweak of the probe compensation and those two are identical.

Rigol construction is cheapest possible:
1ADC1MEM/4

Siglent 4 channel construction is semi cheap:
1ADC1MEM/2 + 1ADC1MEM/2
And this is reflected in the price. No official price yet but so far it seems like it will cost about $250 more.

(And given that the Rigol is currently selling for $328, that's a lot more...)

"Huh? Add a twist of the brightness knob and a tweak of the probe compensation and those two are identical."

False. Period. As told, signals are far away from equal if you compare your image and then this. Perhaps need some basic education.



27th Nov you can see (and surprice) what is real true price for SDS1104X-E  what is somehow "comparable" with hacked Rigol DS1054Z if think alone frequency BW and count of channels.

But as told many times. Siglent is far over this Rigol if look measurement performance. Far over.
This is natural. Also Siglent price is higher. Rigol this model is quite old and with very limited brute force for handling signal and features.

In Europe Batronix is one trusted distributor, also with 30 days free return.
DS1054Z  offer price, including tax. Most individual citizens need buy with tax here in well developed countries. Offer price EUR 379,- Including 19% VAT.

27th Nov you can look here and surprice. but yes there is still difference in price but this price difference is really tiny if think how much more it give. Of course if user do not need more than Riglol then he buy Rigol and if it meets his needs he can be happy with it, buy cheap and you get cheap. Simple. If have only tiny needs Rigol give lot of scope for playing. If need more, then pay bit more and get more:
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2017, 12:02:00 pm
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372960;image)
False. Period. As told, signals are far away from equal. Perhaps need some basic education.

Uhuh.  :palm:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 24, 2017, 12:07:55 pm
The Siglent distributor says we should buy a Siglent, guys, so we better go with that.  :box:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2017, 12:11:06 pm
The Siglent distributor says we should buy a Siglent, guys, so we better go with that.  :box:

Looks that way.  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: borjam on November 24, 2017, 12:12:03 pm
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=372960;image)
False. Period. As told, signals are far away from equal. Perhaps need some basic education.

Uhuh.  :palm:

Please, guys, stop the religious war!!  :horse:

Now.

At 500 MSa/s we don't know wether the Rigol DS1000Z is doing sin(x)/x interpolation or something else. It can only be toggled when the sample rate goes down to 250 MSa/s when enabling more than two channels.

On the Siglent you can enable or disable it regardless of the sample rate. In the examples you are comparing we know certainly (unless they lie) that the Siglent is doing sin(x)/x interpolation.

Is the Rigol doing it or not? We don't know.

So, there are differences between the two eye diagrams indeed. But we don't know wether we are comparing apples to oranges or apples to apples
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: EEVblog on November 24, 2017, 12:13:10 pm
Rigol construction is cheapest possible:
1ADC1MEM/4

Siglent 4 channel construction is semi cheap:
1ADC1MEM/2 + 1ADC1MEM/2
And this is reflected in the price. No official price yet but so far it seems like it will cost about $250 more.
[/quote]

US$499 retail for the 100MHz model.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2017, 01:02:14 pm
this is reflected in the price. No official price yet but so far it seems like it will cost about $250 more.

US$499 retail for the 100MHz model.

OK, so about 42% more (if the current Rigol discounts stick).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 24, 2017, 02:08:35 pm
this is reflected in the price. No official price yet but so far it seems like it will cost about $250 more.

US$499 retail for the 100MHz model.

OK, so about 42% more (if the current Rigol discounts stick).

https://www.batterfly.com/shop/siglent-sds1104x-e (https://www.batterfly.com/shop/siglent-sds1104x-e)
429,00€ exVAT

https://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z (https://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z)
310,00€ exVAT (Xmas Promo)

Siglent official "free for public date" for prices is 27.Nov. So I do not want comment if this price is true or sleeve-shaken.
;)


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2017, 02:22:34 pm
https://www.batterfly.com/shop/siglent-sds1104x-e (https://www.batterfly.com/shop/siglent-sds1104x-e)
429,00€ exVAT

Sounds about right if it's $500-ish (although 16% tax would be very low).

https://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z (https://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z)
310,00€ exVAT (Xmas Promo)

You can do much better than that:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/rigol-ds1054z-on-sale-$349-with-options-tequipment/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/rigol-ds1054z-on-sale-$349-with-options-tequipment/)

If subtract 16% tax from $349 it comes out at 300€.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 24, 2017, 02:29:53 pm
https://www.batterfly.com/shop/siglent-sds1104x-e (https://www.batterfly.com/shop/siglent-sds1104x-e)
429,00€ exVAT

Sounds about right if it's $500-ish (although 16% tax would be very low).

https://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z (https://www.batterfly.com/shop/rigol-ds1054z)
310,00€ exVAT (Xmas Promo)

You can do much better than that:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/rigol-ds1054z-on-sale-$349-with-options-tequipment/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/rigol-ds1054z-on-sale-$349-with-options-tequipment/)

If we use a coupon then subtract 16% tax it comes out at $282.
EU is not US. 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 24, 2017, 02:32:59 pm
EU is not US.

It still costs 40% more, so... same difference. :-//

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Giuss on November 24, 2017, 04:57:10 pm
The 200Mhz version costs 659 euro, very big difference
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 24, 2017, 05:47:52 pm
The 200Mhz version costs 659 euro, very big difference


Batronix:
Rigol 100MHz, DS1104Z   EUR 579,- exVAT
Riglol  50MHz, DS1054Z   EUR 318,- exVAT (limited time -6% offer price).

Very big difference. ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 24, 2017, 06:00:28 pm
Batronix:
Rigol 100MHz, DS1104Z   EUR 579,- exVAT
Riglol  50MHz, DS1054Z   EUR 318,- exVAT (limited time -6% offer price).

Very big difference. ;)
Denying reality won't change a thing. If you can show us how to hack the 100 MHz Siglent to the 200 MHz model, then you'll have a point.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Giuss on November 24, 2017, 06:10:54 pm
Even without a hack,  the 100Mhz version could be the best buy in most cases

We don't know if there is only a software difference between the two models
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 24, 2017, 06:12:11 pm
since this thread is ON I lost my life ... can't stop watching ... need a cure
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on November 24, 2017, 06:20:24 pm
since this thread is ON I lost my life ... can't stop watching ... need a cure
Aren't you a distributor of this product?  Your opinion is biased, you can't stop watching because you want to sell as many units as possible.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 24, 2017, 06:24:51 pm
since this thread is ON I lost my life ... can't stop watching ... need a cure
Aren't you a distributor of this product?  Your opinion is biased, you can't stop watching because you want to sell as many units as possible.
This is your opinion based on your reality. I'm personally in love with test equipment and read so many post and yes the forum helped me to find the enthusiasm to do even more. Yes I sell for living, is it an issue? If you like a discount code PM me lol  :-+
One more thing, my opinion is not biased, if I have to talk shi... about product I do it no problem  :box:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 24, 2017, 06:25:50 pm
Batronix:
Rigol 100MHz, DS1104Z   EUR 579,- exVAT
Riglol  50MHz, DS1054Z   EUR 318,- exVAT (limited time -6% offer price).

Very big difference. ;)
Denying reality won't change a thing. If you can show us how to hack the 100 MHz Siglent to the 200 MHz model, then you'll have a point.

You can not hack DS1000Z for 200MHz. You loose reality?  And there was just plain wonder about 200MHz model higher price than 100MHz model.

Do you know wqhy Rigol keep this high price for 100MHz model.  It is there and you can not deny this truth about Rigol 50 and 100MHz models price difference.

I do not even understand why Rigol fans are so alarmed about this Siglent model. They do not competite at all in same serie. So, why this all distress.  My recommendation: If Riglol meets user needs and budget just buy it and be happy with it - it is so simple.

Some times some peoples ask in real life from me what scope is ok for his needs what needs he have explained. When I see that Rigol this model is well enough I will recommend it - I have done it many times. It have its weaknesses but for many peoples it is still just ok. It depends user needs exactly and alone. Also many hobbyist play with very limited budget.  Market is full of different oscilloscopes for different needs and budget and also for different taste about outlook - some like blonde and some like redheads..  Still Rigol is not at all bad with its price, price wise better than many many others. But user need understand also its pros and cons, as also other models and brands.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on November 24, 2017, 06:28:20 pm
since this thread is ON I lost my life ... can't stop watching ... need a cure
Aren't you a distributor of this product?  Your opinion is biased, you can't stop watching because you want to sell as many units as possible.
This is your opinion based on your reality. I'm personally in love with test equipment and read so many post and yes the forum helped me to find the enthusiasm to do even more. Yes I sell for living, is it an issue? If you like a discount code PM me lol  :-+
One more thing, my opinion is not biased, if I have to talk shi... about product I do it no problem  :box:
No thank you, I already have a REAL OSCILLOSCOPE  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 24, 2017, 06:32:05 pm
since this thread is ON I lost my life ... can't stop watching ... need a cure
Aren't you a distributor of this product?  Your opinion is biased, you can't stop watching because you want to sell as many units as possible.
This is your opinion based on your reality. I'm personally in love with test equipment and read so many post and yes the forum helped me to find the enthusiasm to do even more. Yes I sell for living, is it an issue? If you like a discount code PM me lol  :-+
One more thing, my opinion is not biased, if I have to talk shi... about product I do it no problem  :box:
No thank you, I already have a REAL OSCILLOSCOPE  ;)
uauauauau :) I was kidding ... or maybe not ... we are out of the World Cup so I need you have to accept my sarcasm  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on November 24, 2017, 06:33:32 pm
since this thread is ON I lost my life ... can't stop watching ... need a cure
Aren't you a distributor of this product?  Your opinion is biased, you can't stop watching because you want to sell as many units as possible.
This is your opinion based on your reality. I'm personally in love with test equipment and read so many post and yes the forum helped me to find the enthusiasm to do even more. Yes I sell for living, is it an issue? If you like a discount code PM me lol  :-+
One more thing, my opinion is not biased, if I have to talk shi... about product I do it no problem  :box:
No thank you, I already have a REAL OSCILLOSCOPE  ;)
uauauauau :) I was kidding ... or maybe not ... we are out of the World Cup so I need you have to accept my sarcasm  :-+
We are out of the world cup too (US), so on that topic we are even
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2017, 06:48:01 pm
Rigol construction is cheapest possible:
1ADC1MEM/4

Siglent 4 channel construction is semi cheap:
1ADC1MEM/2 + 1ADC1MEM/2
And this is reflected in the price. No official price yet but so far it seems like it will cost about $250 more.

US$499 retail for the 100MHz model.
[/quote]


Dave I hope you don't make usage mistakes like you did with the above quoted post.
Fixed for you:

Rigol construction is cheapest possible:
1ADC1MEM/4

Siglent 4 channel construction is semi cheap:
1ADC1MEM/2 + 1ADC1MEM/2
And this is reflected in the price. No official price yet but so far it seems like it will cost about $250 more.
US$499 retail for the 100MHz model.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Ghislain on November 24, 2017, 07:23:55 pm
Even without a hack,  the 100Mhz version could be the best buy in most cases

We don't know if there is only a software difference between the two models

Apart from the BW and probes, both scopes seem to be sharing a common platform but that is based on what the spec sheet reveals, reality may still be different.
We will not know for sure until someone takes both apart (Dave?).
What I do not understand yet is why they are coming with two models if the only difference is BW?
Price wise it looks like Siglent is doing a similar thing to what KS and R&S are already doing (at least if the preliminary information we have at present turns out to be correct) and do not forget their offerings are at least 3 to 4 times Siglent's (preliminary) price.
Looking forward to Dave's review!
PS. I am enjoying the developments in this thread although it looks like some members are already starting to overheat and the 27th is still 3 days away  ;D (and yes, we made it to the world cup  8))
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Hydron on November 24, 2017, 07:33:42 pm
uauauauau :) I was kidding ... or maybe not ... we are out of the World Cup so I need you have to accept my sarcasm  :-+
We (NZ) are out too, though it was a long shot trying to beat Peru.
On the bright side, you're in the Rugby World Cup, which I think is better :P (in the same pool too)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 24, 2017, 07:35:54 pm
uauauauau :) I was kidding ... or maybe not ... we are out of the World Cup so I need you have to accept my sarcasm  :-+
We (NZ) are out too, though it was a long shot trying to beat Peru.
On the bright side, you're in the Rugby World Cup, which I think is better :P (in the same pool too)
We like to plat with balls but sometimes we let them drop augh!!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: pascal_sweden on November 24, 2017, 10:10:57 pm
Can someone please do a real test on the decoder functionality in the oscilloscope?

Really debug an SPI signal or a CAN bus signal, and use all 4 channels for the decoding.

Even on the 2 channel model which has been out there for quite some time, nobody on YouTube did a decent decoder test.

Connecting a sinus signal to the inputs is not really a decent test. For some people that's the best that they can do for some reason.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 24, 2017, 10:24:15 pm
Can someone please do a real test on the decoder functionality in the oscilloscope?

Really debug an SPI signal or a CAN bus signal, and use all 4 channels for the decoding.

Even on the 2 channel model which has been out there for quite some time, nobody on YouTube did a decent decoder test.

Connecting a sinus signal to the inputs is not really a decent test. For some people that's the best that they can do for some reason.
I agree. It is the advanced features like decoding and measurements where cheap scopes often fall flat on their face. Every scope can do squiggly lines and has a different user interface which a reviewer may like or not but that is just his/her opinion.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 24, 2017, 11:33:12 pm
Can someone please do a real test on the decoder functionality in the oscilloscope?

Really debug an SPI signal or a CAN bus signal, and use all 4 channels for the decoding.
There's 2 tools that can help here;
The Serial Trigger suite and the Search function.

Both have a list of parameters that can be selected and values user defined.

With Search you can have it just flag an event or Stop sweeps by transferring the settings to the Trigger.
Search settings are mainly edge, pulse, interval and runt, each with a range of user definable parameters.

Simple decoding can be performed without use of the Decoding Trigger suite and there's a decent list of tools in the suite if needed.
From the datasheet:
I2C
Start, Stop, Restart, No Ack, EEPROM, 7 bits Address & Data, 10 bits Address & Data, Data Length
SPI
Data
UART/RS232
Start, Stop, Data, Parity Error
CAN
All, Remote, ID, ID + Data, Error
LIN
Break, Frame ID, ID+Data, Error

Many/most parameters are definable.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 24, 2017, 11:56:40 pm
That is not an answer to the question Pascal is asking: Does decoding (and other advanced features) actually work right now / out of the box? On paper everything can look dandy but if it doesn't work then it is useless and without a real review the only way to find out is to buy one and do a full functional test yourself.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2017, 09:03:24 am
I do not even understand why Rigol fans are so alarmed about this Siglent model.
I'm not alarmed, I just think the Siglent fans are funny.

I'm not sure why the DS1054Z attracts so much hate. The 2-channel Siglent arrived with plenty of bugs but was there a dozen endless threads on here bashing it? Noooo.  :-//

some like blonde and some like redheads.

Both of those have plenty of user interface problems and very large discrepancies in the readouts.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2017, 09:05:27 am
Can someone please do a real test on the decoder functionality in the oscilloscope?

I really doubt it will be different than the 2-channel version.

(apart from SPI, obviously)

Has nobody done an extensive critique of the 2-channel model yet?  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: EEVblog on November 25, 2017, 01:52:13 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kay4Jk2DHuE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kay4Jk2DHuE)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2017, 02:19:59 pm
(very quick teardown video)

No big surprises in the hardware.  :popcorn:

You'd think there's be a way to bolt the AWG module to the side of the 'scope. And that it would be a matching color.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 25, 2017, 05:37:54 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kay4Jk2DHuE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kay4Jk2DHuE)

Is it time to small thinking how oscilloscope works for understanding better what you see and then wonder why it show multiple captures when you are working with trigger normal mode. Is it time for lesson?
2 points wink: It have quite fast trigger rearm.
3 points wink: Screen update period is perhaps roughly around 25ms
4 points wink: How many trigged acquisition it can do for one display refresh.
1 point wink. Trigger normal mode. It trig continuously as long as there is detected trigger events including short rearm time.

You can inspect and learn something after you do:

Make this shock and look there is multiple waveforms on the screen and care that it do not receive anymore triggering events. (set trigger level enough hig for avoid random trig fron some noise or environmental peaks induced to input)

After you have these multiple waveform (2--3---4--- or so on the screen and it is waiting trigger event)

Stop scope pushing it to history wiev.
Now you can scroll every separate capture and perhaps also time stamps...

Is it good to make some "theory & practice" lesson video so that peoples understand how modern fast scope works. It is nice if you can do some day.
We have also some times seen in forum when peoples who have less experience wondering why some oscilloscope show some times  multiple acquisitions on the screen  when they believe there must be only one. If you want only one. Use single shot trigger. It is waiting trig event, and it capture only this next first event.



Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 25, 2017, 05:53:32 pm
What Dave shows is definitely a bug because it isn't consistent. If it is some kind of persistence mode then I'd expect the previous acquisition to show in a darker shade so the most recent acquisition is clear to distinguish (for example: Tektronix does this on some models). Normal mode or single mode doesn't matter. In either case the last acquisition should be shown and not two different acquisitions.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 25, 2017, 06:51:35 pm
What Dave shows is definitely a bug because it isn't consistent. If it is some kind of persistence mode then I'd expect the previous acquisition to show in a darker shade so the most recent acquisition is clear to distinguish (for example: Tektronix does this on some models). Normal mode or single mode doesn't matter. In either case the last acquisition should be shown and not two different acquisitions.

Yes and no.

There Keysight looks like works right. But it also show multiple acq if I see it right. And fast scope need do that. I can explain why but too long story now at this time. So only shortly.

Also Siglent show multiple acg as it need do in first phase! Not only 2 but if there exist more triggers (burst situation), as in Dave video also happend burst  leading more acguisitions to one frame,  it need show these all, naturally, because if triggering continue (and it can not predict what happen very soon in short future) it need continue multiple acg displaying in every display frame depending incoming signal... up to  (100000k acg max/s) what means max around well over 2500 acg in one display frame (if it example refresh 40 times / s 40ms interval  and other things make possible this up to 100kwfm/s <peak> speed ).

But then if there do not exist anymore new trigger. This is now here this problem (possible bug or possible wrong think in FW programmer thinking). 
After some reasonable time it need clean display so that only last acg is displaying.   
In this point we can think what is user need. If there is not user selectable two choices, I think also that these older acq need soon clean out and leave only last one.  But if designer make it more sophisticated there also can be user selectable choice - if designer want do it. Leave last acguisitions (stacked) on the screen or leave only last (after short refresh time). 
In all cases with Siglent, user can look these previous acquistions from history buffer if he want see these previoious acquistions before last one.

Edit: Forget one setting.
If user want be sure only one acg/frame there is: Acquisition mode selection. Fast / Slow. Slow means no DPO. One acquistion for one display frame (if is is not changed).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 25, 2017, 07:36:18 pm
But if designer make it more sophisticated there also can be user selectable choice - if designer want do it. Leave last acguisitions (stacked) on the screen or leave only last (after short refresh time). 
That isn't sophisticated. That is called variable persistence and it has been available since around 1990 on (for example) the Tektronix TDS500/TDS700 series and many other DSOs.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: cbc02009 on November 25, 2017, 07:50:30 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kay4Jk2DHuE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kay4Jk2DHuE)

Any idea when the full review will be posted? Still trying to decide between that and the rigol. The main things keeping me from the rigol are the loudness (near silent office at home, I'd like it to stay that way) and the menu lag (unless that's been fixed since the last time I used one). The new sale makes it even harder to resist though, and I guess I could always change out the fan, though I've heard mixed things about whether that is  long term or not.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2017, 07:54:03 pm
What Dave shows is definitely a bug
Yes and no.

Oh, come on. If it was a Rigol you'd be starting a whole new thread/flamewar over that 'anomaly'.  :-DD

Any idea when the full review will be posted? Still trying to decide between that and the rigol.

Launch day is Monday. I suspect everybody with a 'scope is under NDA until then.

I don't believe anybody is thinking the Rigol will be better than the Siglent but the Siglent will be ~40% more money so it's not exactly an equal choice between the two. If you're going up to $500 then the Keysight 1000X isn't far away and the Keysight might be a better 'scope than the Siglent.  :o

etc. etc.

The real question is whether or not the Rigol meets your needs. If it does then it makes more sense to get yourself a 'scope plus a power supply instead of the Siglent (or whatever else you need).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 25, 2017, 08:50:28 pm
If you're going up to $500 then the Keysight 1000X isn't far away and that's a better 'scope than the Siglent.

How it is better?

I do not say Siglent is better but still need alöso note some things:

Look its measurements from highly decimated data, better than Rigol but with Siglent it loose hands down - or do it have full undecimated acguisition memory measurements. I do not exactly know truth but I suspect it do not. 
Look its speed. Look its fastest trigger rearm time.
Look its total joke segmented memory acquisition. Max 50 segments and very slow, 19 us minimuim trigger rearm time.
 Not at all waveform history buffer.
Not at all 500uV/div real full resolution full BW. It have 1mV/div full resolution. 500uV is only zoomed from 1mV/div
Quite short memory.
How about 1M FFT

Two channels and just everywhere you tell that 4 channel is must.

But one thing Keysight shine. It have 2GSa/s max.

And example decoding, perhaps they win hands down least in some decoding things, I do not know but I believe, due to long history they have exercised and perhaps hard coded to Asic?

But I'm interested how you argument it is just better. 

Is it better to think that some thing is better perhaps and some thing is worse - rest things depends user needs. I can not live without fast seqmented acg. Without normal mode backround working wfm history buffer can just live but it is least helpful to have also it.
1M max memory...hmmhhh...

Keysight name, oh yes.
I have been Hewlett-Packard fan starting from 60's - 70's  and I still have some lot of these "golden" equipments.
After then come one american lady who destroy it and after then some one change this rest (Agilent) to Keyshit with possible designed life time reduction.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 25, 2017, 09:08:25 pm
If you're going up to $500 then the Keysight 1000X isn't far away and that's a better 'scope than the Siglent.

How it is better?

I'm assured that the firmware isn't full of bugs, that all measurements are 100% perfect. There's a guy from Keysight who talks directly to EEVBLOG users if they find anything.

The 2 channel Siglent didn't have a stellar release
Two channels and just everywhere you tell that 4 channel is must.

It's more like 2+1 channels - the trigger input can also be displayed on screen.

I don't recall saying "4 channel is must" but I've often said "2 channels isn't enough".
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Muttley Snickers on November 25, 2017, 09:30:53 pm
Are these new X-E models replacing an existing model and if so which one are they going to drop.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: cbc02009 on November 25, 2017, 10:18:24 pm
If you're going up to $500 then the Keysight 1000X isn't far away and that's a better 'scope than the Siglent.

How it is better?

I'm assured that the firmware isn't full of bugs, that all measurements are 100% perfect. There's a guy from Keysight who talks directly to EEVBLOG users if they find anything.

Also, sorry to derail the thread. I can move my questions elsewhere if necessary.

The 2 channel Siglent didn't have a stellar release
Two channels and just everywhere you tell that 4 channel is must.

It's more like 2+1 channels - the trigger input can also be displayed on screen.

I don't recall saying "4 channel is must" but I've often said "2 channels isn't enough".

Can the trigger input work like a normal input in that regard (math, measure, etc) or does it just display on the screen? That might work.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: cbc02009 on November 25, 2017, 10:20:12 pm
Also, sorry for derailing the thread, I can ask questions elsewhere if that's better.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 25, 2017, 10:22:26 pm
Are these new X-E models replacing an existing model and if so which one are they going to drop.
My guess is the low memory depth CFL series.
http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-detailxx.aspx?id=58&tid=1&T=2 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-detailxx.aspx?id=58&tid=1&T=2)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Performa01 on November 25, 2017, 11:28:17 pm
What we have seen is the normal behavior for normal trigger mode for all SDS-series scopes. Just because it is different to other brands, this doesn’t automatically make it a bug. Where is the problem?

10MHz sine wave, 50% amplitude modulated at 50Hz, run mode:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=373619)
Sine_10MHz_AM_50%_50Hz_Run
 
The usual intensity graded display. Now hit the [Stop] button.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=373621)
Sine_10MHz_AM_50%_50Hz_Stop

Scope now knows that the user wants to stop and it shows the last acquisition. All the previous ones can be found in the history if needed.

Same scenario again, scope is in run mode, but now instead of hitting the [Stop] button we turn the input signal off.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=373623)
Sine_10MHz_AM_50%_50Hz_Off

Scope is “Ready” and waits for a new trigger. It does not clear the screen buffer, which contains some 3300 acquisition records, captured within about 40ms. The scope does not know that the user considers the session to be over. Other brands seem to implement a timeout, Siglent does not.

Big problem?

No. If we desperately need to see only the last record, we can always hit the [Stop] button anytime we want.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=373625)
Sine_10MHz_AM_50%_50Hz_Off_Stop

Voila, there is the latest acquisition again. And all the others in the history, where we can play them back at any speed we want to watch the original signal again, even though it’s long gone.

@rf-loop
The user has the choice already. It’s the stop button. Do we really need an automatic timeout? I for one do not, for sure.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 26, 2017, 12:07:51 am
What Dave shows is that sometimes it shows one trace and sometimes two traces. That is inconsequent.
Secondly what you are describing is some kind of variable time persistence mode. In such a mode you'd expect the older acquisition to show as faded because how would you be able to determine which was the last acquired trace? Sure you can push buttons but that is not convenient. I don't recall ever using a DSO showing this kind of behaviour. The closest ones are the Tektronix TDS510A and TDS220 but in those the previous acquisition is always shown as a faded trace so it is clear which trace was the acquired most recently.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 26, 2017, 12:30:23 am

@rf-loop
The user has the choice already. It’s the stop button. Do we really need an automatic timeout? I for one do not, for sure.

Not for me - of course.. I have many ways how I can use oscilloscope for my needs. Just also, as you told, there is many solutions for user, after he know his equipment and learn things to his muscle memory for use without even thinking. Some humans have more flexible brains and some peoples brains are like black and white and fixation to some "single truth" how equipment must work and if not this is always then bug but never bug or limit in own thinking or using practice.

It can implement example for mister n if it is essential. But then please selection form me that I can mostly shut off this "autoclean". I want be master and scope is slave.  Not opposite. (try to be master using example Keysight or just Riglol what do not let user shut off even sinc interpolation) - I wish good luck).

Also as previously told. If do not want DPO needed multiple captures for every display frame there is user selectable acquistion mode what do not capture more than one time to one display frame.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on November 26, 2017, 12:30:57 am
If you're going up to $500 then the Keysight 1000X isn't far away and that's a better 'scope than the Siglent.

How it is better?

I'm assured that the firmware isn't full of bugs, that all measurements are 100% perfect. There's a guy from Keysight who talks directly to EEVBLOG users if they find anything.

The 2 channel Siglent didn't have a stellar release
Two channels and just everywhere you tell that 4 channel is must.

It's more like 2+1 channels - the trigger input can also be displayed on screen.

I don't recall saying "4 channel is must" but I've often said "2 channels isn't enough".
The additional digital channel can be used on the serial decode function and it can also be added to the analog bus to form a 3-bit parallel decode bus.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: stj on November 26, 2017, 01:53:14 am
i have been trying very hard not to post before the 27th,
but it's looking like i will be placing an order or 2 with RigolOnline either on tuesday, or december - depending on my card limit!!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 26, 2017, 10:06:46 am
It's more like 2+1 channels - the trigger input can also be displayed on screen.

I don't recall saying "4 channel is must" but I've often said "2 channels isn't enough".

Can the trigger input work like a normal input in that regard (math, measure, etc) or does it just display on the screen? That might work.

It's an on/off digital input (which is why I said "2+1 channels") so I'm not sure how useful it would be for math. It works for serial decoding, etc., though.

It's not as good as four channels but it's it's a lot better than two and worth considering if "quality", "responsiveness", etc. is what you're looking for.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Priidik on November 27, 2017, 12:19:50 pm
Does anyone know the ''high-res'' bit depth and bw limit in high res mode on these things?
Datasheet/manual is not clear on that.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 27, 2017, 01:54:51 pm
Does anyone know the ''high-res'' bit depth and bw limit in high res mode on these things?
Datasheet/manual is not clear on that.
Thanks!

There is not "High-Resolution" at all.
There is "Eres"

Eres priciples are well explained here.

http://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires (http://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires)

Also there is information how you can estimate BW with Eres filtering.

Resolution. Final output resolution is in this application still 8 bit.

If some scope have true HighRes it need also in this mode more wide data. Example in Rigol Z there is not available 12 bit data out from HighRes mode as far as I know. So thios 12 bit high resolution is more for advertisements. But, also it filters noise out. Eres and "boxcar" HighRes have bit different advantages and disadvantages.

But, example, some my old Tektronix use in normal mode 8bit bytes and for highres mode double4 bytes in memory for 16 bit data width.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Old Printer on November 27, 2017, 02:23:38 pm
Well, it's 9am eastern time usa on the 27th. So far the earth has not moved, at least here in south Florida. Pretty quiet out there..so far. :) 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: marcopolo on November 28, 2017, 10:00:39 am
I ordered a SDS1104X-E from Batronix  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 29, 2017, 06:14:50 am
I ordered a SDS1104X-E from Batronix  :)

After you get it it is good to know least one thing, lest with this FW version what is there now. This version is 7.6.1.12 out from package.

If any channel is set for < 5mV/div (1X selected) then first 30 minutes after start, it need note that it do some kind of partial small auto"cal" every 15 second. It can see on the screen as some kind of short pause/"hick-up".  Or example if scope is in Roll mode, every 15 second it restart rolling trace. Or if acquisition mode is average, this average resets etc.

If all channels are 5mV/div or more this do not happen at all. After 30min continuous power on, this process end and 500uV to 2mV/div works without this "autocal" or whgat ever it is.

If user do not know at all about this,  it can cause real confusion.

Btw, this can see also in EEVblog (Dave) made nice tear down video final part where he is playing bit fun with scope. This sudden display cleaning (position 18:57) is just one symptom about this process. It happen because scope was continuously running less than 30 minutes and channel V/div was under 5mV/div.

I think that Siglent might later change this approach.  Either by doing it differently or by giving the user the choice to choose whether the oscilloscope performs internal self-tuning during time what is typical for temperature equilibrium (>30min)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 29, 2017, 06:59:05 am
That $69 wifi dongle looks suspiciously like the ones Microcenter sells for $5 (http://www.microcenter.com/product/486131/W311Mi_Wireless_N_Pico_USB_20_Adapter), I wonder if they would work?....
It's not.

In our option listings the WiFi dongle is listed as TL-WN725N.
http://www.tp-link.com/us/products/details/cat-5520_TL-WN725N.html#overview (http://www.tp-link.com/us/products/details/cat-5520_TL-WN725N.html#overview)

I've been told the gold version is the one to get, why I haven't sussed out yet.  :-//

Would be shitty design if it's an user-accessible USB port (with USB logo no less) but won't accept standard-compliant USB stuff.
Yep, we need to fiddle a bit with the WiFi dongle and see what else will work.

BUT you need buy the WIFI software option for it to work anyway unless a hack for it is found.
So I got a couple of the recommended WiFi dongles today as my beta unit wasn't shipped with one.
With the WiFi option installed operation was simple, just enter the WiFi Set submenu and enter your WiFi SSID and password OR use the Manual Scan to find your router/access point.
Then you can get from IP Set the assigned IP address to enter into your PC/laptop/tablet to use the scopes inbuilt Webserver to send SCPI commands or just manual remote control of the scope.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=374830)

Note the WiFi symbol instead of LAN at bottom right.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 29, 2017, 09:02:22 am
If any channel is set for < 5mV/div (1X selected) then first 30 minutes after start, it need note that it do some kind of partial small auto"cal" every 15 second. It can see on the screen as some kind of short pause/"hick-up".  Or example if scope is in Roll mode, every 15 second it restart rolling trace. Or if acquisition mode is average, this average resets etc.

And so it begins.

The long list of "features"...  :popcorn:

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 29, 2017, 09:24:20 am
If any channel is set for < 5mV/div (1X selected) then first 30 minutes after start, it need note that it do some kind of partial small auto"cal" every 15 second. It can see on the screen as some kind of short pause/"hick-up".  Or example if scope is in Roll mode, every 15 second it restart rolling trace. Or if acquisition mode is average, this average resets etc.

And so it begins.

The long list of "features"...  :popcorn:

Rigol DS1000Z do not have  <5mV/div.  Oh yes it have 1 and 2mV/div scale but these are internally based to 5mV/div what isa lowest full resolution sensitivity. Nice el cheapo "lollipop feature".
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 29, 2017, 09:39:43 am
If any channel is set for < 5mV/div (1X selected) then first 30 minutes after start, it need note that it do some kind of partial small auto"cal" every 15 second. It can see on the screen as some kind of short pause/"hick-up".  Or example if scope is in Roll mode, every 15 second it restart rolling trace. Or if acquisition mode is average, this average resets etc.
And so it begins.

The long list of "features"...  :popcorn:
Rigol DS1000Z do not have  <5mV/div.

Well that makes it perfectly OK for Siglent to do this screen clearing thing then.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 29, 2017, 10:32:41 am
If any channel is set for < 5mV/div (1X selected) then first 30 minutes after start, it need note that it do some kind of partial small auto"cal" every 15 second. It can see on the screen as some kind of short pause/"hick-up".  Or example if scope is in Roll mode, every 15 second it restart rolling trace. Or if acquisition mode is average, this average resets etc.
And so it begins.

The long list of "features"...  :popcorn:
Rigol DS1000Z do not have  <5mV/div.

Well that makes it perfectly OK for Siglent to do this screen clearing thing then.

Only when there is not thermal equilibrium time estimate reached it do some automatic self adjust and only in case when high sensitivity range 500uV/div - 2mV/div is in use.
Siglent is not only oscilloscope what do self adjustment when thermal drift with high sensitivity range in use.  Some oscilloscopes may have user selection for disable and enable this self adjust.  Is it first time you hear about this kind of things is oscilloscopes or other T&M instruments?
But, so or so, this solution can do more sophisticated way what it is implemented now. Still better than nothing.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: IAmBack on November 29, 2017, 10:47:55 am
How protocol decoding works on these new Siglents? Do they take only on-screen data or they do processing of full buffer of data to be decoded?

Can somebody compare 100 and 200M versions (e.g. how 50/75/100M square wave look on both of the units)? Please :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 29, 2017, 10:51:33 am
How protocol decoding works on these new Siglents? Do they take only on-screen data or they do processing of full buffer of data to be decoded?

Can somebody compare 100 and 200M versions (e.g. how 50/75/100M square wave look on both of the units)? Please :)
I'm going to do it right now even if my cables are not the best for higher frequencies. I will use a SDG6052X (the video of it is already online)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 29, 2017, 11:03:46 am
How protocol decoding works on these new Siglents? Do they take only on-screen data or they do processing of full buffer of data to be decoded?
Same as previous 1000X and X+ series and 2000X with user skill.  ;)
Display a long stream at slow timebase setting and then use zoom for detail. Event table can be displayed to help navigate.
Well shown in this post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1139758/#msg1139758 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1139758/#msg1139758)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 29, 2017, 11:13:26 am
Standard delivery:
- oscilloscope
- 4 passive probes
- power cable
- usb cable
- certificate
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 29, 2017, 11:23:53 am
How protocol decoding works on these new Siglents? Do they take only on-screen data or they do processing of full buffer of data to be decoded?


Siglent full buffer length is, always when scope is running, same as display width. Whole data is mapped to display. Even if full buffer is 14M it is same as display width. So, it decodes from currently used buffer length.  So, if need decode longer memory it need use slow timebase and then zoom for details, also with decoding. You can zoom and pan for wanted details. Never there is captured signal hidden from user eyes unlike scopes who have small slice from total lenghth displayed. Less visual blind time.

Also same for measurements.  Measurements use full buffer lenght/resolution. Not decimated reduced intermediate buffer or display memory.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 29, 2017, 11:32:24 am
How protocol decoding works on these new Siglents? Do they take only on-screen data or they do processing of full buffer of data to be decoded?
Same as previous 1000X and X+ series and 2000X with user skill.  ;)
Display a long stream at slow timebase setting and then use zoom for detail. Event table can be displayed to help navigate.
But then you'll have to re-capture a longer trace if you want to see more and you will always need to use zoom mode which takes away screen space. That is pretty terrible if you are looking at 4 channels and the event you are triggering on takes some effort/waiting to happen. Why doesn't Siglent make their scopes work like anyone else's? Have the user select the memory depth and use that and never ever switch back to auto memory unless the user explicitly selects that mode.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 29, 2017, 01:19:22 pm
Here is a nice image while decoding

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Giuss on November 29, 2017, 02:15:26 pm
A big improvement from the 2 channel version is the possibility to use 4 channels to decode SPI signals. I'd like to see a video or picture of SPI decoding in action
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on November 29, 2017, 02:33:24 pm
Only when there is not thermal equilibrium time estimate reached it do some automatic self adjust and only in case when high sensitivity range 500uV/div - 2mV/div is in use.
Siglent is not only oscilloscope what do self adjustment when thermal drift with high sensitivity range in use.  Some oscilloscopes may have user selection for disable and enable this self adjust.

But the reason the Siglent clears the screen is...?

Is it first time you hear about this kind of things is oscilloscopes or other T&M instruments?

 :scared:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: JPortici on November 29, 2017, 04:28:26 pm
a very nice thing keysight 3000x can do compared to scopes in simillar and lower class is that it can decode CAN and apply a dbc file to the decoded data (so ID 0xABCD will read as "Engine ECU #1" for example)
can this siglent or any siglent do that? makes it a lot easier to interpret data before going to a canbus analyzer... (if none can, please appropriate people, take note..)

by the way i was looking at simone's video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A)

liking what i'm seeing so far..
It'd be nice to look at some high speed SPI and see how good/bad is it when reducing the timebase. I'd be happy to test it myself or bring a board to test but i have no reason to come to bologna before the new year, i'm busy all weekends... (well i'll probably be there at new year's but no work, all play :) )
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: pascal_sweden on November 29, 2017, 05:59:36 pm
I found out on the Batronix website that the AWG and LA options are both split in an extra hardware option and a software license.
This is a bit weird IMO as the extra hardware option is not meaningful without the software license.

I am under the impression that they did this to make the cost seem lower, as the cost gets quite steep if you add both the hardware option and the software license.

If you would go for the 200MHz version of the 4 channel model, and throw in an AWG and LA option (each time both the hardware option and software license), the overall price reaches the 1000 EUR barrier and beyond.

I wonder if that price point is still competitive, or if there are other more appealing options at the competitors for an oscilloscope with AWG and LA options?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 29, 2017, 06:06:04 pm
a very nice thing keysight 3000x can do compared to scopes in simillar and lower class is that it can decode CAN and apply a dbc file to the decoded data (so ID 0xABCD will read as "Engine ECU #1" for example)
can this siglent or any siglent do that? makes it a lot easier to interpret data before going to a canbus analyzer... (if none can, please appropriate people, take note..)

by the way i was looking at simone's video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A)

liking what i'm seeing so far..
It'd be nice to look at some high speed SPI and see how good/bad is it when reducing the timebase. I'd be happy to test it myself or bring a board to test but i have no reason to come to bologna before the new year, i'm busy all weekends... (well i'll probably be there at new year's but no work, all play :) )
Please feel free to come to visit us!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 29, 2017, 06:11:04 pm
I found out on the Batronix website that the AWG and LA options are both split in an extra hardware option and a software license.
This is a bit weird IMO as the extra hardware option is not meaningful without the software license.

I am under the impression that they did this to make the cost seem lower, as the cost gets quite steep if you add both the hardware option and the software license.

If you would go for the 200MHz version of the 4 channel model, and throw in an AWG and LA option (each time both the hardware option and software license), the overall price reaches the 1000 EUR barrier and beyond.

I wonder if that price point is still competitive, or if there are other more appealing options at the competitors for an oscilloscope with AWG and LA options?
Yes both SW and HW for generator and logic analyzer are splitter, the HW will be available probably close to Xmas or new year.
Today I connected the SDG6052X to the SDS1204X-E and it just worked immediately, I'm wondering if the FG SW option can also drive all features of other Siglent generators, I will find this out soon.

Also in the SDS2000X you have the same options HW and SW, in the end Siglent made a pkg all together.

Maybe we can think to offer something similar but first we want to get all options and try them. Please contact me for special request, thanks.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: JPortici on November 29, 2017, 06:33:53 pm
I found out on the Batronix website that the AWG and LA options are both split in an extra hardware option and a software license.
This is a bit weird IMO as the extra hardware option is not meaningful without the software license.

I am under the impression that they did this to make the cost seem lower, as the cost gets quite steep if you add both the hardware option and the software license.

If you would go for the 200MHz version of the 4 channel model, and throw in an AWG and LA option (each time both the hardware option and software license), the overall price reaches the 1000 EUR barrier and beyond.

I wonder if that price point is still competitive, or if there are other more appealing options at the competitors for an oscilloscope with AWG and LA options?


i think that their reasoning was that you may have many scopes at fixed positions, but not everybody may need the AWG at the same time so one hardware -> multiple scopes? seems kinda dumb but whatever... i've seen far worse AWGs come for much more money
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 29, 2017, 06:53:52 pm
It makes perfect sense that Siglent offers all three options in two parts excepting MSO.

Customers might have a WiFi dongle that works with the DSO so only need the SW activation.

Same principle for the AWG, so why buy the single channel USB AWG that BTW has a limited output range (p-p) if you already have a standalone Siglent AWG  The literature indicates it can control all existing Siglent AWG's, SDG1032X works fine with it, Bode plots and all.
Yes 2 parts for this option makes perfect sense too.

The MSO option is the unknown as yet we know so little about it. There are no pics online of the HW in the datasheet or manual only a few screenshots of usage near the end of the manual, one of which shows decoding of a Hexadecimal logic bus.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Pitrsek on November 29, 2017, 07:08:07 pm
Do we know whether the MSO option is capable of bus decoding from the logic pod?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 29, 2017, 07:09:16 pm
Yes it does.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on November 29, 2017, 07:11:33 pm
Yes it does.
Seeing is believing. Siglent promised that as well (I specifically asked for it!) when they released the SDS2000 but decoding the digital channels didn't work.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: JPortici on November 29, 2017, 07:16:51 pm
Same principle for the AWG, so why buy the single channel USB AWG that BTW has a limited output range (p-p) if you already have a standalone Siglent AWG  The literature indicates it can control all existing Siglent AWG's, SDG1032X works fine with it, Bode plots and all.
Yes 2 parts for this option makes perfect sense too.

huh, i didn't know that. makes sense i guess
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 29, 2017, 07:19:06 pm
I think the FG SW option is not a requirement for Bode Plot
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 29, 2017, 07:36:06 pm
I think the FG SW option is not a requirement for Bode Plot
Hard to know for sure as new units will have trial licences for all the SW options.
My beta unit has permanent licensing so I can't test this.

Thinking about it, the AWG SW maybe controls the standalone AWG too for Bode plots.
Use a unit without AWG permanent option with standalone AWG , do Bode plot and look for reduction in trial usage #'s.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on November 29, 2017, 08:17:49 pm
Same principle for the AWG, so why buy the single channel USB AWG that BTW has a limited output range (p-p) if you already have a standalone Siglent AWG  The literature indicates it can control all existing Siglent AWG's, SDG1032X works fine with it, Bode plots and all.
Yes 2 parts for this option makes perfect sense too.
If it can drive a Siglent AWG that the customer already owns, there should be no extra license to use it.  Siglent should charge only for the AWG Hardware.  It is a really bad marketing decision if they are charging for the software on the scope if it is driving a Siglent AWG.  If it is to drive a non-Siglent AWG, maybe they can charge for it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 29, 2017, 09:11:24 pm
Same principle for the AWG, so why buy the single channel USB AWG that BTW has a limited output range (p-p) if you already have a standalone Siglent AWG  The literature indicates it can control all existing Siglent AWG's, SDG1032X works fine with it, Bode plots and all.
Yes 2 parts for this option makes perfect sense too.
If it can drive a Siglent AWG that the customer already owns, there should be no extra license to use it.  Siglent should charge only for the AWG Hardware.  It is a really bad marketing decision if they are charging for the software on the scope if it is driving a Siglent AWG. 
Good point.
Let's see how this develops, maybe that will be revised.

Quote
If it is to drive a non-Siglent AWG, maybe they can charge for it.
Maybe ?  :-//
It's very unlikely command protocols will work with other brands.

When doing Bode plots the AWG is swept through many frequencies/second so commands must be correct.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: IAmBack on November 29, 2017, 10:37:12 pm
a very nice thing keysight 3000x can do compared to scopes in simillar and lower class is that it can decode CAN and apply a dbc file to the decoded data (so ID 0xABCD will read as "Engine ECU #1" for example)
can this siglent or any siglent do that? makes it a lot easier to interpret data before going to a canbus analyzer... (if none can, please appropriate people, take note..)

by the way i was looking at simone's video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A)

liking what i'm seeing so far..
It'd be nice to look at some high speed SPI and see how good/bad is it when reducing the timebase. I'd be happy to test it myself or bring a board to test but i have no reason to come to bologna before the new year, i'm busy all weekends... (well i'll probably be there at new year's but no work, all play :) )
Please feel free to come to visit us!
Could You please show us, how 100M and 200M units display the same signal (eg. 25/50/75M square wave)?
I'm thinking about one of these, but I'm not sure how much 200M in reality differs from 100M...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: hexpope on November 30, 2017, 12:08:47 am
I just ordered one from the EU, I am wondering and can't figure it out. Can you have a gen function on one of the outputs with a software license only or do you have to buy the license and the hardware module to have wave gen?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 30, 2017, 12:35:33 am
I just ordered one from the EU, I am wondering and can't figure it out. Can you have a gen function on one of the outputs with a software license only or do you have to buy the license and the hardware module to have wave gen?
There is NO inbuilt AWG. The optional 25 MHz external AWG is USB powered and controlled by the scope. For this you need buy the HW and SW.

You can see it on this link near the bottom of the page on the right.
http://www.siglenteu.com/pdxx.aspx?id=2771&T=2&tid=1 (http://www.siglenteu.com/pdxx.aspx?id=2771&T=2&tid=1)

So if you already have a Siglent SDG**** AWG then you would only need to buy the AWG SW option.
Edit.
Above last sentence is true for Bode plot usage only, not general Siglent AWG control usage.


Please see reply #386
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 30, 2017, 01:41:43 am
a very nice thing keysight 3000x can do compared to scopes in simillar and lower class is that it can decode CAN and apply a dbc file to the decoded data (so ID 0xABCD will read as "Engine ECU #1" for example)
can this siglent or any siglent do that? makes it a lot easier to interpret data before going to a canbus analyzer... (if none can, please appropriate people, take note..)

by the way i was looking at simone's video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A)

liking what i'm seeing so far..
It'd be nice to look at some high speed SPI and see how good/bad is it when reducing the timebase. I'd be happy to test it myself or bring a board to test but i have no reason to come to bologna before the new year, i'm busy all weekends... (well i'll probably be there at new year's but no work, all play :) )
Please feel free to come to visit us!
Could You please show us, how 100M and 200M units display the same signal (eg. 25/50/75M square wave)?
I'm thinking about one of these, but I'm not sure how much 200M in reality differs from 100M...
Above is very poor connection techniques to even attempt to show signal fidelity.
Some lessons can be learnt from this thread on the pitfalls of displaying square waves.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/show-us-your-square-wave/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/show-us-your-square-wave/)

For reference a screenshot from the above video.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=375052)

Compare with:
SDG1032X, 20 MHz, cheap Siglent BNC cable and terminated into also cheapish Pintek 50 \$\Omega\$ 2GHz feedthrough.
Scope SDS1104X-E 100 MHz
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=375054)

Edit to add.
I have always used Tek 1x 50 \$\Omega\$ BNC feedthrough but a new Pintek one bought recently offers less square wave attenuation so is now my first choice.
http://www.pintek.com.tw/product_detail/landersound/index.php?Product_SN=19282&PHPSESSID=344qv7ar5g7s19evvgtktt76l4&Company_SN=6002&Product_Site_Classify_SN=17075 (http://www.pintek.com.tw/product_detail/landersound/index.php?Product_SN=19282&PHPSESSID=344qv7ar5g7s19evvgtktt76l4&Company_SN=6002&Product_Site_Classify_SN=17075)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: alreadystarted on November 30, 2017, 02:34:21 am
So if you already have a Siglent SDG**** AWG then you would only need to buy the AWG SW option.
Edit.
Above last sentence is true for Bode plot usage only, not general Siglent AWG control usage.

That's really disappointing to have to purchase the software license even if you already have a Siglent AWG, those are not cheap.  I see the license price is $109, seems like a heavy punishment for existing customers.

Edit: This may be incorrect.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on November 30, 2017, 03:13:31 am
So if you already have a Siglent SDG**** AWG then you would only need to buy the AWG SW option.
Edit.
Above last sentence is true for Bode plot usage only, not general Siglent AWG control usage.

That's really disappointing to have to purchase the software license even if you already have a Siglent AWG, those are not cheap.  I see the license price is $109, seems like a heavy punishment for existing customers.
I mentioned I can't test this to be sure until new stock arrives.

Siglent sent me this:
1. Siglent SDG**** AWG don't need to buy the SW option.
2. SDS1004X-E also can't control the SDG*** AWG.
Only the SAG1021 hardware module can be controlled by SDS1004X-E.


1. I take this to mean any Siglent SDG**** can be used for Bode plot.
2. DSO can only control SDG**** for Bode plot usage.

So it may seem that the AWG SW option is only needed for general AWG usage control of the SAG1021 HW.
Please Siglent confirm.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: alreadystarted on November 30, 2017, 03:56:53 am
I mentioned I can't test this to be sure until new stock arrives.

Siglent sent me this:
1. Siglent SDG**** AWG don't need to buy the SW option.
2. SDS1004X-E also can't control the SDG*** AWG.
Only the SAG1021 hardware module can be controlled by SDS1004X-E.


1. I take this to mean any Siglent SDG**** can be used for Bode plot.
2. DSO can only control SDG**** for Bode plot usage.

So it may seem that the AWG SW option is only needed for general AWG usage control of the SAG1021 HW.
Please Siglent confirm.

That would be completely reasonable.  There’s not really a need to control a separate box, as long as the Bode plot function is supported.  Please confirm when you can for us.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 30, 2017, 07:02:10 am
Time ago somewhere here was discussed about vertical offset setting when change V/div setting when channel mode is DC.

It was really frustrating to turn Vertical position  (offset) if example look some ripple etc over DC and need change V/div for look more "close" this ripple or what ever riding on DC  and need also watch DC level or very low frequencies what need mostly that channel is DC coupled.

Now in SDS1kX-E 4-chan  have solution for this.
Lets hope they implement this feature also to 2 channel models FW.
Is it right place that this selection is under Utility menu is other question. So or so, but this feature is good to have.

There is available now fixed offset voltage setting. User can select fixed Voltage offset or this Fixed "position" offset what have been there previously as fixed default).
Fixed voltage offset means that it keep offset voltage constant when you change V/div.

Example (in image) there is small signal (or ripple or what ever) riding over 1.5V DC.
I have set 1.5V fixed vertical offset.
First image just example with 100mV/div (ans also slow timebase, nite it can still measure rise time with 1ns resolution)
Then next image I want change V/div for look better this "ripple". I turn it to 10mV/div
I do not need now turn nearly endless this vertical position adjustment when I change V/div. I can change to what ever V/div and offset is fixed 1.5V. (in this image I have also changed time base but this is not relevant for this offset feature.)
Previously it was some times really frustrating to use time for turning this vert, position all time when change V/div.

There is also available fixed delay time setting but this is other story.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Performa01 on November 30, 2017, 08:25:19 am
Is it right place that this selection is under Utility menu is other question. So or so, but this feature is good to have.

This is only a first shot, not the final solution, which will go even further. Stay tuned ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on November 30, 2017, 10:54:27 am
Is it right place that this selection is under Utility menu is other question. So or so, but this feature is good to have.

This is only a first shot, not the final solution, which will go even further. Stay tuned ;)

Yes.

One thing what I hope is that Siglent develop zoomed display more nice for eyes.
Least when I use horizontal zoomed window my priority is looking this zoomed window.
It feels bit annoying that display is vertically divided 1:1.  I feel better if zoomed window height is more than unzoomed upper part. Unzoomed upper part is only for select what part of whole waveform I want zoom. But for signal details I look zoomed bottom part. It is much better if this part get more height on display. Example 1/4 for unzoomed and 3/4 for zoomed.  Why user use zoom. Because he want see details. So, who do not show details as good as can.




Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: kahe40 on November 30, 2017, 11:06:23 am
Could You please show us, how 100M and 200M units display the same signal (eg. 25/50/75M square wave)?
I'm thinking about one of these, but I'm not sure how much 200M in reality differs from 100M...
the first difference I see, are 357€ ... (WTF, Rigol1054 sells for 379€, the entire scope)

prices from Batronix are:  1202X-E = 427€   1204X-E = 784€   (VAT and shipping included)
so 357€ more to spend for 2CH more and another ADC, not bad Siglent!

The 1104X-E is 510€, so 274€ more only for the 200M Bw?

I hope it can be hacked, otherwise I have to wait for the new Rigols.
They should bring the 1054 to the next level, 2GSa one CH and each CH with 500MSa?
Would be a DS2072A with 4CH for roundabout 1000€ - maybe only a dream?
And 10bit, please   :-))
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Performa01 on November 30, 2017, 11:51:22 am
One thing what I hope is that Siglent develop zoomed display more nice for eyes.
Least when I use horizontal zoomed window my priority is looking this zoomed window.
It feels bit annoying that display is vertically divided 1:1.  I feel better if zoomed window height is more than unzoomed upper part. Unzoomed upper part is only for select what part of whole waveform I want zoom. But for signal details I look zoomed bottom part. It is much better if this part get more height on display. Example 1/4 for unzoomed and 3/4 for zoomed.  Why user use zoom. Because he want see details. So, who do not show details as good as can.

I agree, yet it might not be that simple a decision.

Full display means 1 ADC LSB = 2 screen pixels.
Split display (50 + 50% as it is now) means 1 ADC LSB = 1 screen pixel.

Split display (25 + 75%) means ...
Optical appearance of the trace rendition as well as performance might suffer.

Have you ever talked to Siglent about this request?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: pascal_sweden on November 30, 2017, 06:12:10 pm
Cool to hear that it works with an existing AWG! I have access to an SDG1025 :)

Still not entirely clear whether I would need a software license option or not, and for which functionality.

And why does Siglent write "SDS1004X-E can't control the SDG**** AWG"? If the scope can't control the AWG, how can it generate a Bode plot? :)
The scope should be able to control the AWG in order to generate a Bode plot.

Or do they mean that it can't control *ALL* parameters of the AWG, and just a minimal set of parameters to generate a Bode plot?
What would that minimal set be? Frequency/Amplitude/Phase parameters applied on a standard Sine wave?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on November 30, 2017, 06:47:06 pm
So if you already have a Siglent SDG**** AWG then you would only need to buy the AWG SW option.
Edit.
Above last sentence is true for Bode plot usage only, not general Siglent AWG control usage.

That's really disappointing to have to purchase the software license even if you already have a Siglent AWG, those are not cheap.  I see the license price is $109, seems like a heavy punishment for existing customers.

Edit: This may be incorrect.
No need of FG software option for Bode Plot
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Siglent America on November 30, 2017, 09:38:20 pm
So if you already have a Siglent SDG**** AWG then you would only need to buy the AWG SW option.
Edit.
Above last sentence is true for Bode plot usage only, not general Siglent AWG control usage.

That's really disappointing to have to purchase the software license even if you already have a Siglent AWG, those are not cheap.  I see the license price is $109, seems like a heavy punishment for existing customers.

Edit: This may be incorrect.
No need of FG software option for Bode Plot

You are correct.
You can use an external Siglent SDG to make your Bode Plots without having to use the software (FW) option. The SDG is connected to the SDS1XX4X-E scope via USB and SCPI commands are sent to it from the scope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: gray on December 01, 2017, 12:54:00 am
I have been watching development around new Siglent scopes for some time. Considering SDS1104X-E.

Have a question. The WiFi adapter for 4-channel scopes on Siglent US site http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-detailxx.aspx?id=5109&tid=1&T=2 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-detailxx.aspx?id=5109&tid=1&T=2) is listed as TL_WN725N. Google resolves it as TP-Link N150 Wireless Nano USB Adapter (TL-WN725N) listed on Amazon for $7.99. Can someone with the scope check if this TP-Link in fact works? Does WiFi option require license fees?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 01, 2017, 02:01:48 am
I have been watching development around new Siglent scopes for some time. Considering SDS1104X-E.

Have a question. The WiFi adapter for 4-channel scopes on Siglent US site http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-detailxx.aspx?id=5109&tid=1&T=2 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-detailxx.aspx?id=5109&tid=1&T=2) is listed as TL_WN725N. Google resolves it as TP-Link N150 Wireless Nano USB Adapter (TL-WN725N) listed on Amazon for $7.99. Can someone with the scope check if this TP-Link in fact works? Does WiFi option require license fees?
Welcome to the forum.

Yes and yes, but mine does have a permanent WiFi option. It should work with the option Trial usages until there are none left. You can purchase any option later from your dealer if/when required.
I've only tried the gold version as was recommended by my contacts at Siglent and it was plug and play, no problems at all.
My experience was outlined in reply #352
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: gray on December 01, 2017, 02:32:14 am
So, let me get it straight. $49 paid for WiFi adapter buys an adapter and a license key? On top of that, one needs to buy a software for $69 (prices taken from Saelig site)? Somewhat steep.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 01, 2017, 02:50:12 am
So, let me get it straight. $49 paid for WiFi adapter buys an adapter and a license key?
No, just the WiFi adapter/dongle at Siglent retail price.  :(

Quote
On top of that, one needs to buy a software for $69 (prices taken from Saelig site)? Somewhat steep.
You just need buy the SW (license key) IF you can source the dongle cheaper elsewhere.

But not all will need WiFi connectivity as the LAN port accomplishes the same functionality.
I found it there was no advantage IF you had access to a wired LAN.

As time passes other WiFi dongles will be tried and a list of 'working' ones made.
The silver (not gold) version of TL-WN725N may work fine too, we just don't know yet.

For quick and easy small size (Kb's) screenshots, a USB stick is still the most convenient.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: gray on December 01, 2017, 03:08:45 am
So, let me get it straight. $49 paid for WiFi adapter buys an adapter and a license key?
No, just the WiFi adapter/dongle at Siglent retail price.  :(

OK, this makes life a little easier. $8 is better than $49 :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Giuss on December 01, 2017, 12:30:39 pm
a very nice thing keysight 3000x can do compared to scopes in simillar and lower class is that it can decode CAN and apply a dbc file to the decoded data (so ID 0xABCD will read as "Engine ECU #1" for example)
can this siglent or any siglent do that? makes it a lot easier to interpret data before going to a canbus analyzer... (if none can, please appropriate people, take note..)

by the way i was looking at simone's video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A)

liking what i'm seeing so far..
It'd be nice to look at some high speed SPI and see how good/bad is it when reducing the timebase. I'd be happy to test it myself or bring a board to test but i have no reason to come to bologna before the new year, i'm busy all weekends... (well i'll probably be there at new year's but no work, all play :) )

I'd like to see a similar video for the 1104 with a 100mhz input signal and also a video with SPI decoding
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: epongenoir on December 01, 2017, 02:10:37 pm
I'll probably test SPI this evening, mine arrived yesterday (sds1104x-e)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on December 01, 2017, 02:21:28 pm
a very nice thing keysight 3000x can do compared to scopes in simillar and lower class is that it can decode CAN and apply a dbc file to the decoded data (so ID 0xABCD will read as "Engine ECU #1" for example)
can this siglent or any siglent do that? makes it a lot easier to interpret data before going to a canbus analyzer... (if none can, please appropriate people, take note..)

by the way i was looking at simone's video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsW8p21x_A)

liking what i'm seeing so far..
It'd be nice to look at some high speed SPI and see how good/bad is it when reducing the timebase. I'd be happy to test it myself or bring a board to test but i have no reason to come to bologna before the new year, i'm busy all weekends... (well i'll probably be there at new year's but no work, all play :) )

I'd like to see a similar video for the 1104 with a 100mhz input signal and also a video with SPI decoding

All functions and other things are indentical between SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E.  All is similar. All works similar.
There is one - just exactly one - difference. Analog front end before AD converters analog frequency bandwidth is different. Every other things are equal exactly.  Difference can see in risetime  what is just same as frequency response. Other thing is that 200MHz have bit more natural noise due to more wide BW. With SPI decoding you can not see any difference between these models until  exept if signal is so fast that frequency BW come important.
100MHz model may be even better than 200MHz model because Nyquist if use it so that sampling speed is 500MSa/s.  200MHz is just 1.25 x fNyquist what is barely enough IF signal is pure sine wave and very good quality Sin(x)/x filtering is in use. If signal have some frequency components what goes over 250MHz it produce aliasing, also barely over 200MHz start show some bad effects due to facxt that Sinc interpolation (filter) is done using only small amount of data. 
Because BW response shape is gaussian type, also too near Nyquist and over Nyquist limit frequency components can go to ADC and produce aliasing and bit under Nyquist also start example level wobbling and or corners wobbling if pulse type wave have these too high harmonics components.

100MHz model -3dB BW response corner is around 110MHz (in my measurement with single individual unit) and signal is highly attenuated well below f Nyquist. Also it looks like BW shape is more steep over 100MHz than what is example in  some previous models. And this is good thing - even when some peoples (mostly noobs) "admire" higher bandwidths in slow speed sampling real time oscilloscopes. (way or other repetitive sampling is different case)

One wink for modifiers and hackers. Make your scope better - reduce BW enough low (related to f Nyquist) and make BW shape after corner frequency for more steep decay.   Most reliable and quality works can do with max flat and brickwall shape BW. Even if it bit reduce rise times. 
200MHz model is barely ok but really in "border line" if more than 2 channels is in use and only if 200MHz signal is enough near  sine wave.     
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on December 01, 2017, 03:23:35 pm
There is one - just exactly one - difference. Analog front end before AD converters analog frequency bandwidth is different. Every other things are equal exactly. 
It means no software hack from 100MHz to 200MHz model :(
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on December 01, 2017, 03:36:40 pm
It means no software hack from 100MHz to 200MHz model :(
I did not say that.

Who knows how analog front end BW is adjusted ;)







Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on December 01, 2017, 03:47:29 pm
It means no software hack from 100MHz to 200MHz model :(
I did not say that.

Who knows how analog front end BW is adjusted ;)
Then at the component level they are the same
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: IAmBack on December 01, 2017, 03:50:40 pm
And what about probe compensation issue (known from 2ch model)? Is it "available" in 4ch models?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on December 01, 2017, 05:06:21 pm
And what about probe compensation issue (known from 2ch model)? Is it "available" in 4ch models?

Not available. Also not available in new 2 channel models out from factory. (no missing capacitor anymore. Why it was missing from its original designed place, "who knows".)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on December 01, 2017, 08:50:10 pm
And what about probe compensation issue (known from 2ch model)? Is it "available" in 4ch models?
Not available. Also not available in new 2 channel models out from factory. (no missing capacitor anymore)

That's very comforting.

(Gee, I hope they remembered all the other ones...have you checked?)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nctnico on December 01, 2017, 09:11:19 pm
And what about probe compensation issue (known from 2ch model)? Is it "available" in 4ch models?
Not available. Also not available in new 2 channel models out from factory. (no missing capacitor anymore. Why it was missing from its original designed place, "who knows".)
The reason is obvious: even China suffers from the plague called bean counters or worse: some good old Muntzing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntzing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntzing) ! Or let's move over to a bed time story from Bob Pease: http://www.electronicdesign.com/boards/whats-all-muntzing-stuff-anyhow (http://www.electronicdesign.com/boards/whats-all-muntzing-stuff-anyhow)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: maddin on December 01, 2017, 10:46:41 pm
Standard delivery:
- oscilloscope
- 4 passive probes
- power cable
- usb cable
- certificate

No printed manual in the standard delivery ?
I know that i can download it from Siglent homepage, but sometimes i would prefer real paper instead reading on monitor. 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: hexpope on December 01, 2017, 10:48:15 pm
I was thinking this myself yesterday when I saw the photo posted.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 01, 2017, 11:52:33 pm
On new to market products we have occasionally received them without manuals but following shipment always have them.
It's only the Quick Start, a real condensed user manual that for an experienced scope user is usually ignored anyway.
The full manual is on the CD along with the programming guide and any software that's applicable to the product.
All the docs are here:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-wd.aspx?id=5109&tid=1&T=2 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-wd.aspx?id=5109&tid=1&T=2)

Software here:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-gjjrj.aspx?id=5109&tid=1&T=2 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-gjjrj.aspx?id=5109&tid=1&T=2)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: nimish on December 02, 2017, 09:32:42 pm
So, let me get it straight. $49 paid for WiFi adapter buys an adapter and a license key?
No, just the WiFi adapter/dongle at Siglent retail price.  :(

Quote
On top of that, one needs to buy a software for $69 (prices taken from Saelig site)? Somewhat steep.
You just need buy the SW (license key) IF you can source the dongle cheaper elsewhere.

But not all will need WiFi connectivity as the LAN port accomplishes the same functionality.
I found it there was no advantage IF you had access to a wired LAN.

As time passes other WiFi dongles will be tried and a list of 'working' ones made.
The silver (not gold) version of TL-WN725N may work fine too, we just don't know yet.

For quick and easy small size (Kb's) screenshots, a USB stick is still the most convenient.

Now THIS is nickel and diming -- it's not like siglent is developing a wifi driver, they're just gonna use the same kernel module that red pitaya or anyone else who buys a Zynq would get in the BSP.

I can understand charging for the logic analyzer and the AWG but for wifi it's a bit much. Hopefully the firmware can be hacked to enable wifi regardless.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: hexpope on December 02, 2017, 09:38:05 pm
Quote
Now THIS is nickel and diming -- it's not like siglent is developing a wifi driver, they're just gonna use the same kernel module that red pitaya or anyone else who buys a Zynq would get in the BSP.

I can understand charging for the logic analyzer and the AWG but for wifi it's a bit much. Hopefully the firmware can be hacked to enable wifi regardless.

I bought the 100mhz version. So it will be interesting to see if this indeed can be hacked up to 200mhz and other options.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 04, 2017, 07:46:07 am
Can someone please do a real test on the decoder functionality in the oscilloscope?
Some basic/simple SPI decoding screenshots FYI

Protocol source = Siglents STB3
http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-fjxx.aspx?fjid=4990&id=5109&tid=1&T=2 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-fjxx.aspx?fjid=4990&id=5109&tid=1&T=2)
Only MOSI channel available.

Settings
Ch3 ~CS, Falling edge trigger
Ch2 Clk
C1 MOSI Data

Standard supplied probes used.
Various menus shown or hidden.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376339)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376341)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376343)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376345)

So let's now sloooow the timebase down and use its Zoom and turn the event table ON.
Note scroll bar position and event #.....and that's 50% through the list.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376347)
Menu hidden
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376349)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on December 04, 2017, 08:35:57 am
Self explanating

(https://i.imgur.com/rDiaZ4o.png)


Edit:

Correction - clarify.
Bode plot is standard function but it is not usable without external compatible "optional" generator.
Oscilloscope do not have internal signal generator.
So it do nothing if user do not have compatible generator (exept it tell that failed to connect to AWG).
Function generator can be also some other compatible Siglent AWG than just SDS1000X-E Option SAG1021.

Example if user have SDG1032X (this I have tested) it works and no need oscilloscope AWG control licence option SDS1000X-E-FG.
Just connect cables and run Bode Plot. Signal generator works under full control of oscilloscope bode plot function. No need touch SDG front panel at all. Same for other compatible Siglent generators.


Shortly:
Out from box, oscilloscope itself have Bode plot function what is standard function. It is not usable without external generator.
Using Bode Plot need external optional AWG. It can be SDS1000X-E Option SAG1021 or what ever other but compatible Siglent AWG.


edit:corrected some errors in compare table
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 04, 2017, 08:57:03 am
Self explanating

Bode plot (optional)
Are you sure ?
No mention of this in the datasheet or manual if a standalone Siglent AWG is used for Bode plots.
Some previous discussion in post #385

The SAG1021 USB AWG is indeed optional and this too can be used for the Bode plot signal source.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on December 04, 2017, 08:58:39 am
Bode Plot is not optional, it is standard, press utility button and you find it
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 04, 2017, 09:06:18 am
Bode Plot is not optional, it is standard, press utility button and you find it
I assume you're going to need a signal generator, right? Whether it's the optional unit or another discrete device.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on December 04, 2017, 09:08:52 am
Yes correct, SAG1020 or other Siglent generators
from the user manual:
The bode plot application for the SDS1000X-E (only 4 channels scope supports this application) controls a external arbitrary waveform generator(AWG, only the Siglent’s arbitrary waveform generator can be supported ) to sweep a sine wave across a range of frequencies while measuring the input to and output from a device under test (DUT). At each frequency, gain and phase are measured and plotted on a Bode chart.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 04, 2017, 09:28:50 am
Yes correct, SAG1020 or other Siglent generators
from the user manual:
The bode plot application for the SDS1000X-E (only 4 channels scope supports this application) controls a external arbitrary waveform generator(AWG, only the Siglent’s arbitrary waveform generator can be supported ) to sweep a sine wave across a range of frequencies while measuring the input to and output from a device under test (DUT). At each frequency, gain and phase are measured and plotted on a Bode chart.
Considering the hardware required for a bode plot is optional, it's not unreasonable to say bode plots are therefore optional :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on December 04, 2017, 11:50:50 am
Clarified/corrected previous msg things related to Bode Plot.
( https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1366057/#msg1366057 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1366057/#msg1366057)  )
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on December 04, 2017, 07:56:35 pm
Here is simple BodePlot (and really poor messy hand woven RC) in bit noisy environment and perhaps poor setup BodePlot settings.
It have three different resolution (steps), low, middle and high. 21, 101 and 501 points. In image 501 points in use.

Generator is SDG1032X

Just connect USB and BodePlot function automatically do all setups for SDG. No need touch SDG  at all (exept cables and power on)

Also example external load impedance is adjustable between 50, 75, 600ohm and Hi-Z.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376464;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376466;image)






Last image is just totally only playing like kid for show that there can also set more DUT outputs.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376482;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 04, 2017, 08:03:36 pm
Here is simple BodePlot (and really poor messy hand woven RC) in bit noisy environment and perhaps poor setup BodePlot settings.
It have three different resolution (steps), low, middle and high. 21, 101 and 501 points. In image 501 points in use.

Generator is SDG1032X

Just connect USB and BodePlot function automatically do all setups for SDG. No need touch SDG  at all (exept cables and power on)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376464;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376466;image)
I found performance could be improved (speed) by reassigning Bode plot channels to use both ADC's instead of using default Bode plot channels 1 and 2.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: insine on December 04, 2017, 09:31:36 pm
Why there is no N-th edge trigger?
Is Siglent planning to add it?

Also, I found in the datasheet, there are no edge count and pulse count measurements. It would be nice to have these.

UART decoding seems to be limited to 334000baud? 10Mbaud would be nicer :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 05, 2017, 07:54:54 am
UART decoding seems to be limited to 334000baud? 10Mbaud would be nicer :)
A check with my beta unit shows UART 5Mbaud custom setting is available BUT this needs confirmation from a fresh to market unit. Possibly there were last minute tweaks to firmware prior to release.

Some simple UART decode.
Source Siglent STB3
Connection with standard probes

Ch1 falling edge trigger, Holdoff close (80ns)
While the first screenshot doesn't show it, triggering was unstable and addition holdoff was added to restrict triggering until after a packet of data.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376569)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376571)

Decode ON
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376573)

Panning the decode in Zoom mode
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376575)

640 events in the decode table.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376577)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on December 05, 2017, 08:20:47 am
UART decoding seems to be limited to 334000baud? 10Mbaud would be nicer :)
A check with my beta unit shows UART 5Mbaud custom setting is available BUT this needs confirmation from a fresh to market unit. Possibly there were last minute tweaks to firmware prior to release.



I have FW version 7.6.1.12
FPGA version 2017-11-07

UART custom speed Max 5M

What is your version?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 05, 2017, 08:25:23 am
UART decoding seems to be limited to 334000baud? 10Mbaud would be nicer :)
A check with my beta unit shows UART 5Mbaud custom setting is available BUT this needs confirmation from a fresh to market unit. Possibly there were last minute tweaks to firmware prior to release.



I have FW version 7.6.1.12
FPGA version 2017-11-07

UART custom speed Max 5M

What is your version?
FW version = same.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: toomuchesr on December 06, 2017, 03:27:40 pm
SDS1104X-E: € 510,51

AWG + Software Option for it: € 165.41 + € 113.05 = € 304.46
Hmmm, I guess this price is ok but no cheap. I assume you will find a standalone ARB that performs better for the same money.

Logic Analyser Probes + Software Option: € 342.72  + € 113.05 = € 455.77
I don't get it. Just judging from the product photo, the probes do not look like high quality stuff. I assume the whole sampling electronic in the little boxes, or is it just a bunch of (super "expensive") passive components?

(Prices from https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html))
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on December 06, 2017, 03:31:02 pm
The logic probe image is not the SLA1016 , it is the SPL2016
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on December 06, 2017, 03:35:28 pm
I don't get it. Just judging from the product photo, the probes do not look like high quality stuff. I assume the whole sampling electronic in the little boxes, or is it just a bunch of (super "expensive") passive components?

Normally they have comparators with selectable reference voltage so you can work with 5V/3.3V/etc.

Not cheap, but not $300 either.

(does anybody know the exact chips they use?)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 06, 2017, 05:05:28 pm
SDS1104X-E: € 510,51

AWG + Software Option for it: € 165.41 + € 113.05 = € 304.46
Hmmm, I guess this price is ok but no cheap. I assume you will find a standalone ARB that performs better for the same money.

Logic Analyser Probes + Software Option: € 342.72  + € 113.05 = € 455.77
I don't get it. Just judging from the product photo, the probes do not look like high quality stuff. I assume the whole sampling electronic in the little boxes, or is it just a bunch of (super "expensive") passive components?

(Prices from https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html))
The image on the Batronix site is of the LA probeset for SDS2000X series NOT for SDS1*04X-E.
Pricing is for both is similar and if the probeset is of the same quality as for 2000X it is much superior to the cheap ribbon cable probesets used before.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Pitrsek on December 06, 2017, 08:55:45 pm
First observations with 1104X-E - bode plot is not autoranging on the DUT channel, which is kinda lame. CSV export from bode is empty. Bode does not work with rebranded siglent AWG. I might try to push siglent fw on the AWG.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on December 06, 2017, 09:49:03 pm
First observations with 1104X-E - bode plot is not autoranging on the DUT channel, which is kinda lame. CSV export from bode is empty. Bode does not work with rebranded siglent AWG. I might try to push siglent fw on the AWG.

In this test data is crap (not real test with DUT and not made any designed settings)), this is done only for get "what ever" .CSV out after it have done BP. Attached this .csv. Edit file name so that remove last .txt and it is just this original SDS00002_bode.csv from SDS1104X-E

Autoranging. I do not know what kind of autoranging you think with this but least in my tests plot itself adjust its amplitude and phase scales automatically when it is running and doing plotting if plot goes near border it adjust scale as needed but all this it do only when it is running. If your AWG do not work with it, then you can not see it. Also you do not get data table what it save as .csv.

Edit: add: attached image about plot what is same as this .csv. (here screen is horizontally divided for BP plot and data table. Data table can turn off of course for more wide plot.) (as can see not best settings)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on December 07, 2017, 12:32:58 am
Siglent Bode Plot does not look good, why all the ripple?  I don't think the filter is causing it, so the plot is not a good representation.

Here is the Keysight EDUX1002G bode plot (50 ohm passthrough connector) to compare...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376964;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 07, 2017, 04:47:48 am
Siglent Bode Plot does not look good, why all the ripple?  I don't think the filter is causing it, so the plot is not a good representation.

Here is the Keysight EDUX1002G bode plot (50 ohm passthrough connector) to compare...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376964;image)
Not good ?  :-//
It's showing a magnitude higher resolution. If the KS was set to the same parameters, what will it show ?

Are you using a 10:1 probe for connection ? Why ?  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Pitrsek on December 07, 2017, 05:43:58 am
Auto ranging - in regard with input sensitivity. When you start, the ref channel sensitivity is automatically set for maximal resolution, the DUT channel is set to what ever you have set it. Then you start to sweep, DUT signal is getting smaller and smaller, but DUT channel sensitivity is still the same. If the scope would change sensitivity settings as needed, you would get way better amplitude resolution. You'd probably need some king of calibration routine tough.

I'll look into csv export some more, but we were getting just empty csv file on the usb drive.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on December 07, 2017, 05:49:32 am
I have bought few Minicircuit low pass filters SLP-50+ , 50Ohm adapters, SMA connectors etc ... to create a nice test setup. Unfortunately it seems I will not get them before Xmas :( I hope to post a video about it as soon as possible .
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on December 07, 2017, 06:42:41 am
Siglent Bode Plot does not look good, why all the ripple?  I don't think the filter is causing it, so the plot is not a good representation.

Here is the Keysight EDUX1002G bode plot (50 ohm passthrough connector) to compare...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=376964;image)

Do you have thos your Bode Plot data table .csv? How many data points it have?


Here Attached Siglent image what you perhaps like more. Now also scales are roughly around same on the screen.

I do not know how many data pints Keysight use. If I remember right not so many.
Big difference is that KS use its internal signal generator.  Siglent use external and in my case not even this SAG1021 what you can see SDS1104X-E data sheets and ad's. I use here in this case Siglent SDG1032X what oscilloscope is controlling via USB command bus. It is perhaps possible that in some cases this signal generator produce some glitches or not. Also my SDS1032X is not factory original out from box. It is experimentally tweaked out from its specifications.

As you can see in my previous image, it was done ONLY for show that it can save bode plot data to usb memory using .CSV  data format. For this I did not any real cabeling to any real DUT. Just random wires on my board.

Then example level. As @tautech noted there is very very different scale. We have 8bit ADC, in KS and in Sig. What you think when you magnify scale so that one resolution step is more than display resolution.

This is more comparable with Keysight bode plot including tiny amount of data points (Siglent set for most low amount of data points)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=377020;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 10, 2017, 01:25:43 am
Search Feature exercise

Slope Glitch
Source Siglent STB3, 10x probe
Description: On the negative edge of a 156 kHz square wave, a step having a 200ns width adds to the overall fall time of the edge.

It can sometimes be seen as an irregular part of the falling edge of a square wave but can't be captured with a screenshot.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=377820)

Some Persistence and Colour added shows it's certainly there.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=377822)

So let's try and find it with Search.....also possible with Trigger settings but then we wouldn't know if was irregular or not.
Search Menu and let's use a Pulse search
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=377824)

And set the period for less than the positive pulse width
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=377826)

Still no hits  :-// ah, set the Level.....but they scroll across the display.  ???
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=377828)

Copy settings to Trigger, now we have five events and one directly under the Horizontal position indicator
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=377830)

STOP and timebase increased.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=377832)


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Pitrsek on December 13, 2017, 08:24:45 pm
A friend loaned me the scope for a test drive. We'll se how it fares  :).
Feature suggestion/request:
Would it be possible to make back BNC trigger bidirectional? So it can be used as trigger-in?
Full screen mode - make measurements and scale setting semitransparent(selectabe) and extend the picture to whole screen. The screen is small as it is.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 13, 2017, 09:54:08 pm
A friend loaned me the scope for a test drive. We'll se how it fares  :).
Feature suggestion/request:
Would it be possible to make back BNC trigger bidirectional? So it can be used as trigger-in?
I don't think the HW configuration will allow it.

The existing rear BNC is for Pass/Fail and Trigger out, both signals that are generated by the scope.

Trigger In or Ext Trig as it's better known as feeds into a different path in the scope and Ext Trig is not common in 4 ch scopes for various reasons....cost, real estate room and it's common to just use a spare channel.

However Ext Trig is common in 2 channel scopes.

For those that need 4 channels and Ext Trig there are other models available in the Siglent range, the SDS2000X series.
(http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Picture/Product/SDS2000X/15.png)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 16, 2017, 09:29:51 am
And what about probe compensation issue (known from 2ch model)? Is it "available" in 4ch models?
While setting up some probes today I remembered your post so this is how they look.
At 1.2V/div an input relay changes and either with Fine or stepping from 1V/div to 2V/div will show the error as it existed in older 2ch models.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=379508)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=379510)

And while I'm making pretty traces  ::)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=379512)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: kermitfrog on December 21, 2017, 09:13:53 pm
Was considering a 1204, but after watching Dave's teardown videos my impression is that he doesn't think the sampling circuits would keep up very well for the 200mhz models. Did anyone else see this on the video? Maybe I should just get the 1104 instead and save some $ if that is the case? As far as I can tell the 1104 has the same specs and options etc as the 1204 with the exception of the 200mhz vs 100mhz, unless I missed something. After seeing the price price for the MSO option, I'm a bit reluctant...another $440 for the MSO option is a bit pricey, and makes the whole thing less affordable for me.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on December 21, 2017, 09:18:30 pm
Defpom's review.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds-1104x-e-4-channel-scope-my-review-on-youtube/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds-1104x-e-4-channel-scope-my-review-on-youtube/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on January 02, 2018, 07:15:49 pm
Jack Ganssle's quick and short write up of SDS1204X-E:

http://www.ganssle.com/tem/tem341.html#article4 (http://www.ganssle.com/tem/tem341.html#article4)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: simone.pignatti on January 08, 2018, 09:53:47 am
Hello there! First day in office and finally got the components I was waiting for, a pair of low pass filter which I will use to test the Bode Plot function on the new Siglent 4 channel scopes. I still need some adapters and cables and I should be ready for it. Hope to be ready to post something soon!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Giuss on January 08, 2018, 05:47:42 pm
Hi, I've seen the Rigol DS1054Z now sold with all options unlocked and it costs about 120 Euro less than the SDS1104X, do you think that the Siglent is still a good buy? 
Of course there is a gap for the BW (50Mhz vs 100Mhz) but I don't know if this difference is worth for the price, for hobby use.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on January 08, 2018, 06:20:35 pm
Hi, I've seen the Rigol DS1054Z now sold with all options unlocked and it costs about 120 Euro less than the SDS1104X, do you think that the Siglent is still a good buy? 
Of course there is a gap for the BW (50Mhz vs 100Mhz) but I don't know if this difference is worth for the price, for hobby use.

The Rigol is easy to convert to 100MHz bandwidth, just press the right sequence of buttons on the front panel.  :)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Giuss on January 08, 2018, 08:29:56 pm
Hi, I've seen the Rigol DS1054Z now sold with all options unlocked and it costs about 120 Euro less than the SDS1104X, do you think that the Siglent is still a good buy? 
Of course there is a gap for the BW (50Mhz vs 100Mhz) but I don't know if this difference is worth for the price, for hobby use.

The Rigol is easy to convert to 100MHz bandwidth, just press the right sequence of buttons on the front panel.  :)

Yes I know that.  Probably it is still the best buy in this price range.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: TK on January 08, 2018, 08:59:26 pm
Hi, I've seen the Rigol DS1054Z now sold with all options unlocked and it costs about 120 Euro less than the SDS1104X, do you think that the Siglent is still a good buy? 
Of course there is a gap for the BW (50Mhz vs 100Mhz) but I don't know if this difference is worth for the price, for hobby use.

The Rigol is easy to convert to 100MHz bandwidth, just press the right sequence of buttons on the front panel.  :)
The Rigol is very slow at serial decoding and FFT.  If you need these functions, I think the siglent is a better buy.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: MARCOS BR on January 09, 2018, 01:51:32 pm
Greetings to all of Brazil. I use Google translate. I am an old reader of the blog. As a hobby I am a ham radio. Now I decided to participate and ask questions. Soon I want to buy a Digital Oscilloscope, I already had a Hitachi analog oscilloscope, 35 MHz. It was a "disappointment to children's fault" of the "probing" of the SDS1202X-E and SDS1204X-E. It seems to me that in model SDS1202X-e the problem has already been solved. On the question of SDS1204X-E how is the solution?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on January 09, 2018, 07:39:00 pm
Greetings to all of Brazil. I use Google translate. I am an old reader of the blog. As a hobby I am a ham radio. Now I decided to participate and ask questions. Soon I want to buy a Digital Oscilloscope, I already had a Hitachi analog oscilloscope, 35 MHz. It was a "disappointment to children's fault" of the "probing" of the SDS1202X-E and SDS1204X-E. It seems to me that in model SDS1202X-e the problem has already been solved. On the question of SDS1204X-E how is the solution?
Welcome to the forum.

There is no problem with 10x probe compensation in these new 4ch models.
Dave looked at the input stages in his teardown to check both caps are there, they are.

This is mentioned also by other members a few pages back.
My last reply on December 16 demonstrates 10x probe compensation issue is not in these scopes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: exe on January 10, 2018, 08:24:25 pm
Hi, I've seen the Rigol DS1054Z now sold with all options unlocked and it costs about 120 Euro less than the SDS1104X, do you think that the Siglent is still a good buy?

While 120euros may appear to be a lot, in my opinion it doesn't really matter. Buy the one you'll enjoy more (if you use it any frequently) or the one that will better fulfill your needs.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Fungus on January 11, 2018, 10:09:39 am
Hi, I've seen the Rigol DS1054Z now sold with all options unlocked and it costs about 120 Euro less than the SDS1104X, do you think that the Siglent is still a good buy?

You could always unlock those options anyway.

Answer: It's your money, it's up to you.

If you bought a new car would you lie awake at night thinking you could have spent 43% more to get the model with leather seats? Both models have aircon and power steering, both models will get you to work every day and carry the exact same amount of shopping.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on January 14, 2018, 03:49:19 am
From another thread:
Siglent Technologies has kindly lent me their new SDS1204X-E oscilloscope (200 MHz, 4 channels) to help the lxi-tools open source effort :-+

I hooked it up, calibrated the 4 included probes, and after enabling the network interface (DHCP) it was easily discovered with lxi-tools.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/open-source-lxi-tools-and-liblxi-v1-0-released-for-gnulinux/?action=dlattach;attach=385242)

It turns out that this is an absolutely blazingly fast scope, especially in terms of LXI/LAN SCPI command processing performance!

With the benchmark feature I'm getting ~300 requests/s via TCP/VXI11:

Code: [Select]
$ lxi benchmark --address 192.168.1.125
Benchmarking by sending 100 ID requests. Please wait...
Result: 301.5 requests/second

And I get ~600 requests/s via TCP/RAW:
Code: [Select]
$ lxi benchmark --raw --address 192.168.1.125
Benchmarking by sending 100 ID requests. Please wait...
Result: 598.9 requests/second

This is quite impressive. Compared, the performance of e.g. the Rigol DS1054Z is ~30 requests/s via TCP/VXI11 and ~160 requests/s via TCP/RAW.

Of course, the faster performance is to be expected from a newly released scope which clearly uses a newer and faster chipset. However, fact still is, it is very fast and it is one of the first low cost scopes that makes it possible to easily implement a poor-mans data logger using LXI/LAN polling that can consistently sample data at e.g. 100 Hz or more.

I also notice that Siglent uses standard LXI ports as defined here: http://www.lxistandard.org/About/LXI-Protocols.aspx (http://www.lxistandard.org/About/LXI-Protocols.aspx)

That is, the available network ports for the SDS1204X-E are:
Code: [Select]
$ nmap -p- 192.168.1.125

Starting Nmap 7.60 ( [url]https://nmap.org[/url] ) at 2018-01-08 15:18 CET
Nmap scan report for 192.168.1.125
Host is up (0.042s latency).
Not shown: 65529 closed ports
PORT     STATE SERVICE
23/tcp   open  telnet
80/tcp   open  http
111/tcp  open  rpcbind
918/tcp  open  unknown
5024/tcp open  scpi-telnet
5025/tcp open  scpi-raw

Nmap done: 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 40.14 seconds

In particular, they use standard port 5025 for SCPI/RAW and port 5024 for SCPI/telnet. This is one of the odd things that Rigol fails to do for the DS1054Z (they place it on non-standard port 5555):

Code: [Select]
$ nmap -p- 192.168.1.210

Starting Nmap 7.60 ( [url]https://nmap.org[/url] ) at 2018-01-08 15:19 CET
Nmap scan report for 192.168.1.210
Host is up (0.080s latency).
Not shown: 65529 closed ports
PORT     STATE SERVICE
80/tcp   open  http
111/tcp  open  rpcbind
617/tcp  open  sco-dtmgr
618/tcp  open  dei-icda
619/tcp  open  compaq-evm
5555/tcp open  freeciv

Nmap done: 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 40.54 seconds

Taking a screenshot with the SDS1204X-E is very fast too:
Code: [Select]
$ time lxi screenshot -a 192.168.1.125
Loaded siglent-sds screenshot plugin
Saved screenshot image to screenshot_192.168.1.125_2018-01-08_15:37:22.bmp

real    0m0,361s
user    0m0,006s
sys     0m0,026s

Only ~0.4 second!

It's also nice to see that the Siglent scope has a small and light form factor which feels solid.

My first impressions are good - I'm looking forward to more testing with this instrument during the development of the GUI frontend for lxi-tools. It will also make a nice addition to the pool of instruments that I plan to use for lxi-tools performance and regression testing.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: epongenoir on January 19, 2018, 10:37:52 pm
I have bought this scope and I love it, but I think I just discovered a bug, which happens in Normal trigger, run mode.

If you need the precise config files to replicate the issue ask, I can post them!

What do you think?

Sorry for the quality, I'm working and I am in a precarious setup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eovy4GQQRUQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eovy4GQQRUQ)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on January 20, 2018, 12:36:27 am
I have bought this scope and I love it, but I think I just discovered a bug, which happens in Normal trigger, run mode.

If you need the precise config files to replicate the issue ask, I can post them!

What do you think?
I'm pretty sure it's not a bug.

Look at the relationship of memory depth, H offset and timebase settings.
As you zoom in, the memory depth reduces and subsequently the amount of H offset available reduces too.
The display message indicates this and I'd expect it to be quite normal behavior.

Think 'data points' and how many are available to work with.  ;)
As you're in Normal triggering you are working with 'saved' data points and behavior will be different with Auto triggering where a "live" stream of data points (memory) will be available for the scope to work with.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Performa01 on January 20, 2018, 03:09:58 am
This is not a bug, just an artificial restriction.

Trigger delay cannot exceed 10000 x the timebase. So at 1µs/div, the max. permissible delay is 10000µs or 10ms.

You can lower the timebase as much as you want in stop mode though, if you really need to examine a very short signal detail that far away from the trigger point.

Instead of lowering the main timebase, you can also use zoom mode as this has absolutely no restriction. Be aware though, that a long trigger delay also generates some additional jitter that is about 0.5ppm of the delay time and this will eventually become visible. With 12ms delay, jitter would be about 6ns peak to peak and be noticable at a (zoomed) timebase of 100ns/div or faster.

From this point of view, it would be acceptable to limit the delay time to 100000 x timebase, thus making it possible to have 10ms delay at 100ns/div. But then again, in the rare cases where you actually need such an extreme setting, you can always either stop the acquisition or use the zoom mode during run.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: rf-loop on January 27, 2018, 07:47:02 pm
Some tiny simple examples about SDS1000X-E 4channel models BodePlot function what is standard feature - not option.

In Siglent there is selectable three resolution. 21, 101 and 501 points over selected span.

Still I do not know how this resolution is in exdample Keysight InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series Oscilloscopes. In some places can find 10 points/decade (are they serious or is this whole function only for add one more feature to sales AD). In some Good Will model there is also now FRA (Freq Response Analyzing) available and it have around bit over 50 points. But how scaling is done etc, it is very unclear.

Here two examples with Siglent. These examples use quite narrow span and high resolution because this kind of work need narrow span and enough high rersolution. These examples are not at all some kind of maximum limits. Minimum span is 500Hz and max 120MHz.  Here in filter image used 5kHz span and in Xtal resonance curve 10kHz span.

Also it need note that test setups are far away from optimal or good. (filter I/O impedance not matched. Xtal just connected between scope input terminal and other pole to generator output what is also connected to channel 1 as reference using simple T branching connector and also BodePlot settings just for see something, not optimized.

Note that in filter image, level is linear and Xtal image level is Log. (It show nicely what are limits of 8bit ADC)

Also here used only one plot. Siglent can handle somultaneously three inputs (DUT outputs)
Channel 1 is always reference (Sig gen output) and DUT input.  User can select channels 2, 3 and 4 for DUT output. All three works simultaneously and free to select what channel or channels use.


Xtal ~1.1MHz xtal in HC5 case from one Harris military rtx.
Bad filter also from Harris rtx.

Signal generator in this case SDS1032X-h (under scope bodeplot full automatic cotrol)

with BodePlot HighRes sweep and 10kHz span frequency step is 20Hz and and (Span Hz/500)

In these two examples I have used ch3 input. Because now channels 1 and 3 is in use simultaneously scope can use full 1GSa/s (no needed, but just for example)


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=390081;image)
With 8bit ADC full scale natural limit is ~48dB (8*6.02)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=390083;image)

With this image I like also ranting something.
In this case DUT (filter) attenuate pass band lot of. But, I have no option to adjust different level for DUT output. It use automatically same level what it automatically set for reference channel 1 what depends sweep signal level. User can not (or least I have not find how) manually force scope input level settings, BP select it automatically. No, result is better if I can compensate this high atternuation in DUT, so that ADC use its range better so that vertical resolution come better.
But, this is first FW version with BodePlot... there is also some ergonomic - UI things what need finishing and some optimize for better useability. Specially when there is also data table on screen and more other informations like cursors etc. (note that here cursor are "wrong channel" just for get different color and less information. (if use here ch3 cursors it read data from trace).


But BodePlot in Siglent is not made only just  for adding one feature to sales advertisements. I do not know exactly example how Keysight X1000 BP things are but it looks like it have really poor resolution. Nothing like in Siglent.






Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on January 28, 2018, 04:26:58 pm
As previously told Siglent BodePlot have 4 inputs.
1 (Ch1) for reference (pahase and if want, also for amplitude) what is also signal to DUT input.
3 channels for DUT outputs.  Of course this mean that thewre also can be 3 separate DUT (but all with same input)

Here tiny simplified example. Just for show it draw simultaneously 3 traces. I have lot of same type Xtals and I want first do some preselecting for couple of as similar as possible for futher tests and more deep selection process (example if I'm building filter). Generator used here was SDG1032X-h

Here is 3 same type bit over 18MHz Xtal's just picked-up randomly from some lot.

I have turned phase out from image just for visual simplify.

(also as can see Ch4 Xtal is more out from these what are connected to ch2 and 3)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=390407;image)
Also useful for simultaneusly tuning 3 separate filters.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 02, 2018, 04:50:55 pm
Some little update on lundmar's work for a LXI package to use with Linux....

I had to go back and update the benchmark performance numbers for the Siglent SDS1204X-E because it turns out my network routing tables were messed up so all tests were performed over wifi - arrghhhh!  |O

Over cabled network it's not doing ~300 requests/second.... It's doing ~1100 requests/second!!!!

Bam! Thats almost as fast as a Dolorean in overdrive!

With such result there is plenty room to make a poor-mans-datalogger sampling maybe several values at e.g. 100Hz or more.

Oh, and the screenshot live view feature in lxi-gui is now even more smooth hitting about 7 frames/second.
And a realtime vid demonstrating it's speed:
I captured a video instead to capture the time correctly:

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/lxi-tools/misc/master/lxi-gui-benchmark-live-view-sds1204xe.webm

It demonstrates the benchmark and live screenshot feature on the SDS1204X-E. It feels quite responsive.
Download and play it.  ;)  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 05, 2018, 08:13:37 am
What we've been waiting for....

Firmware Version: v7.6.1.12
8 Mb

http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4067&tid=15 (http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4067&tid=15)

Changelog
1.This is the first version.  ::)  :-//


VERY IMPORTANT
Perform Self Cal after updating.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 05, 2018, 09:35:37 am
What we've been waiting for....

Firmware Version: v7.6.1.12
8 Mb

http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4067&tid=15 (http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4067&tid=15)

Changelog
1.This is the first version.  ::)  :-//


VERY IMPORTANT
Perform Self Cal after updating.

I'm bit surprised.
I do not remember if Siglent have done this any time previously - publishing first launch time FW version as update.
Or is this "Happy New year" present for....  due to chinese new year soon.
Perhaps - or is it just only dreaming - there was SDG2042X, SSA3021X, SDG1032X... is this next "wow"...
Least now some peoples have file what can "study"...
 :-/O
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on February 05, 2018, 10:02:48 am
What we've been waiting for....
Firmware Version: v7.6.1.12
8 Mb
Changelog
1.This is the first version.  ::)  :-//

mmm, my unit is already on 7.6.1.12 from the box.... Maybe it will update the FPGA bitstram? Is there any indication of the FPGA version in the update?
Mine FPGA has version is: 2017-11-07
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 05, 2018, 10:07:30 am
What we've been waiting for....
Firmware Version: v7.6.1.12
8 Mb
Changelog
1.This is the first version.  ::)  :-//

mmm, my unit is already on 7.6.1.12 from the box.... Maybe it will update the FPGA bitstram? Is there any indication of the FPGA version in the update?
Mine FPGA has version is: 2017-11-07

It is same. (It can read in filename)
SDS1004X-E_7.6.1.12_FPGA_V20171107.ADS

As told also just previously. This is FIRST version. Normally purchased units out from box have this version.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 05, 2018, 10:14:44 am
What we've been waiting for....

Firmware Version: v7.6.1.12
8 Mb

http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4067&tid=15 (http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4067&tid=15)

Changelog
1.This is the first version.  ::)  :-//


VERY IMPORTANT
Perform Self Cal after updating.

I'm bit surprised.
I do not remember if Siglent have done this any time previously - publishing first launch time FW version as update.
Or is this "Happy New year" present for....  due to chinese new year soon.
Perhaps - or is it just only dreaming - there was SDG2042X, SSA3021X, SDG1032X... is this next "wow"...
Least now some peoples have file what can "study"...
 :-/O
:-[
Yes, it's the same version Siglent sent me pre-release.  :palm:

Not the first time they've put the wrong version online................
We'll find out what's going on tomorrow !
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on February 05, 2018, 10:18:56 am
My SDS1104X-E out of the box (purchased Jan 2018) was:

Software Version: 7.6.1.12R1
FPGA Version: 2017-12-18
Hardware Version: 00-03

Not sure what the R1 signifies?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 05, 2018, 10:26:31 am
What we've been waiting for....

Firmware Version: v7.6.1.12
8 Mb

http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4067&tid=15 (http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4067&tid=15)

Changelog
1.This is the first version.  ::)  :-//


VERY IMPORTANT
Perform Self Cal after updating.

I'm bit surprised.
I do not remember if Siglent have done this any time previously - publishing first launch time FW version as update.
Or is this "Happy New year" present for....  due to chinese new year soon.
Perhaps - or is it just only dreaming - there was SDG2042X, SSA3021X, SDG1032X... is this next "wow"...
Least now some peoples have file what can "study"...
 :-/O
:-[
Yes, it's the same version Siglent sent me pre-release.  :palm:

Not the first time they've put the wrong version online................
We'll find out what's going on tomorrow !

And same what I can see out from box after release. ;)
Lets hope this version have some "hole" to...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 05, 2018, 10:29:07 am
My SDS1104X-E out of the box (purchased Jan 2018) was:

Software Version: 7.6.1.12R1
FPGA Version: 2017-12-18
Hardware Version: 00-03

Not sure what the R1 signifies?

This is good information, tnx. This IS update after this "first version". (also fpga version changed)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 05, 2018, 10:33:30 am
Now we can wait soon this .12R1 update is available. Let's see igf Siglent leave this .12 also available. So we can also downgrade (if need for some reason)

ETA:
12R1 is only tiny intermadiate update. No advantages over version 12. (change only pass/fail output pulse width)
Next update after this is .20 and it have lot of changes. Without further tests I only "feel" that changelog do not list exactly every all improvements what they have done. (example it looks like some functions operate now bit faster but I have not yet compared running simultaneously version 12 and version 20 (using two scopes)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 07, 2018, 09:34:27 am
No false alarm this time.  :)

Version: v7.6.1.20
http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4071&tid=15 (http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4071&tid=15)
6.5 Mb

Changelog
1.Add MSO/Logic functionality
2.Added automatic vertical scale (volts/div) in Bode Plot mode
3.Added USB WiFi support.
4.Optimized the WiFi GUI
5.Automatic Roll mode selection will be disabled if manually disabled once.
6.Renamed Runt-Trigger in German
7.Fixed a bug in the I2C triggering system of 7 bit Address& Data
8.Improved Auto Setup function with 1K compensation output
9.Improved waveform update when using sequence mode on long timebases
10.Optimize self-calibration for Channels
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 08, 2018, 06:05:25 am
No false alarm this time.  :)

Version: v7.6.1.20
http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4071&tid=15 (http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4071&tid=15)
6.5 Mb

Changelog
1.Add MSO/Logic functionality
2.Added automatic vertical scale (volts/div) in Bode Plot mode
3.Added USB WiFi support.
4.Optimized the WiFi GUI
5.Automatic Roll mode selection will be disabled if manually disabled once.
6.Renamed Runt-Trigger in German
7.Fixed a bug in the I2C triggering system of 7 bit Address& Data
8.Improved Auto Setup function with 1K compensation output
9.Improved waveform update when using sequence mode on long timebases
10.Optimize self-calibration for Channels
Perhaps it is also good to add this positive "disclaimer":
11. Possibly more or less improvements and fixes that are not listed.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 08, 2018, 09:59:06 am
Perhaps it is also good to add this positive "disclaimer":
11. Possibly more or less improvements and fixes that are not listed.

Hopefully so. After all I've suggested a whole bunch of improvements and fixes not listed here...

Quote
2.Added automatic vertical scale (volts/div) in Bode Plot mode

I do hope this is what I think, because it has been the main reason why I haven't published a review of the Bode plotter yet.

Quote
9.Improved waveform update when using sequence mode on long timebases

If this means that sequence mode is fully working again and provides improved screen update rate on top of that (I've suspected something like this when looking at the initial firmware already), then I'm really looking forward to finally publish my (then updated) review for this.

Anyway, I'm eager to find out at the next weekend(s).

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: theoldwizard1 on February 13, 2018, 06:13:56 am
I do hope Siglent is listening and they have their engineers working OT fixing these bugs !

Glad to see someone challenging Rigol !
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on February 15, 2018, 08:25:58 pm
Hi,
I've updated my SDS1104X-E with the new firmware but now I notice something strange on channel 4.
I can't see any signal with 50V/div, 5V/div, 1V/div, 200 mv/div (probe set to x10, with x1 the values are 5V, 500mV, 100mV, 20mV). To be more precise I can see the signal only for an instant after changing the V/div scale and then it disappears.
I never noticed this with the previous fimware so I think that is a firmware problem.

can someone check this? or can I try something to figure out what is going on?

Thanks
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on February 15, 2018, 08:31:50 pm
I've had the same problem on channel 1 and 4.

I downgraded the firmware to 7.6.1.12 and problem went away, but returned when I upgraded again. Though a second self calibration after the upgrade made it work correctly. I haven't tried it today to see if the problem has returned.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 15, 2018, 10:56:30 pm
I've had the same problem on channel 1 and 4.
I downgraded the firmware to 7.6.1.12 and problem went away, but returned when I upgraded again. Though a second self calibration after the upgrade made it work correctly. I haven't tried it today to see if the problem has returned.

It looks like there is some problem. They have perhaps changesd something related to calibration data.
I have boted this. (Ch2 in my case) but then I did selfcal after selfcal and so far the problem has not been repeated (at least not yet).

At this time whole Siglent is vacation (Chinese new year aka spring festival) so I need wait before I can contact head office in China.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 16, 2018, 12:08:27 am
I have updated the firmware last weekend and did an extensive regression test for all the issues I had ever reported to Siglent since the first beta release. There were no such issues but I had some initial problems too.

This is an excerpt of what I wrote to Siglent with regard to the new 7.6.1.20 firmware:

Quote
After the new firmware was decompressed and the scope restarted, it took a little while until the familiar user interface appeared and the correct firmware version was displayed on the Utility Status screen. I performed a self-calibration immediately after that, but when it was finished, nothing seemed to work as expected. The SDS1104X-E would not even stably trigger on a plane sine wave. Only after another restart, the scope worked normally again.

From this experience, it appears that the scope needs another restart after the firmware has finally been installed. If so, this should be clearly stated in the update instructions.

So maybe this is the same issue and can be cured either by performing another self-cal or a simple restart. If anyone who has not yet updated reads this and encounters issues like described in the previous postings after the update, I would be grateful if they would try just another restart and report back if that cures the problem.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 16, 2018, 12:49:39 am
I have updated the firmware last weekend and did an extensive regression test for all the issues I had ever reported to Siglent since the first beta release. There were no such issues but I had some initial problems too.

This is an excerpt of what I wrote to Siglent with regard to the new 7.6.1.20 firmware:

Quote
After the new firmware was decompressed and the scope restarted, it took a little while until the familiar user interface appeared and the correct firmware version was displayed on the Utility Status screen. I performed a self-calibration immediately after that, but when it was finished, nothing seemed to work as expected. The SDS1104X-E would not even stably trigger on a plane sine wave. Only after another restart, the scope worked normally again.

From this experience, it appears that the scope needs another restart after the firmware has finally been installed. If so, this should be clearly stated in the update instructions.

So maybe this is the same issue and can be cured either by performing another self-cal or a simple restart. If anyone who has not yet updated reads this and encounters issues like described in the previous postings after the update, I would be grateful if they would try just another restart and report back if that cures the problem.
This I can confirm similar behavior in my early beta unit. I have no other units in stock currently to check and new units due in a week or so are most likely to have the new 7.6.1.20 firmware.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on February 16, 2018, 07:25:02 am
I've done another self cal and all seems to work fine until a reboot. after that i have the same problem on ch.1 and 4.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 16, 2018, 07:31:21 am
I've done another self cal and all seems to work fine until a reboot. after that i have the same problem on ch.1 and 4.
Please perform a Factory Default (NOT user set Default) and report result.
TIA.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on February 16, 2018, 07:56:26 am
how can i do that?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 16, 2018, 08:19:13 am
how can i do that?
Default button, front panel.

This Default button has two possible UI settings; Factory or User defined*.

It returns all DSO settings to the base setting you select, factory or your preferred settings.

I'm only checking that some setting in your DSO is not affecting the problem you see, and best way to do this is reset to Defaults.


* Described earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on February 16, 2018, 10:16:05 am
I did a Factory Default reset the first time I had the issue, and then a self calibration, the problem still existed.

(For me) It seemed the signal disappears when the relays kick-in to change some of the ranges. Going back up, or down one more range, then the signal would return.

Increasing the input signal amplitude would not restore it, neither changing any timebase or trigger settings.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on February 16, 2018, 12:18:14 pm
YES..
same issue after a reset to default.
the problem disappear after a self cal but comes back after reboot.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 16, 2018, 12:41:32 pm
YES..
same issue after a reset to default.
the problem disappear after a self cal but comes back after reboot.
Please one more check.

Reinstall 7.6.1.20 firmware, just straight over itself again.
Follow instruction with care and leave USB stick installed when asked to reboot. Then remove after reboot and do self cal. (after warm ~20 mins total)

If this fails your scope will need to go for a trip back to your supplier.  :(
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on February 16, 2018, 12:56:34 pm
i'll check later... but.. it's not only my issue. i'l check also with the previous firmware
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 16, 2018, 01:00:43 pm
i'l check also with the previous firmware
Why ?
We want to look forward not back. I checked my SDS1104X-E for problems like yours, there are none visible with 7.6.1.20.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on February 16, 2018, 01:08:38 pm
because with the previous firmware this issue was not there.

if the issue disappears with the previous firmware this could confirm that the problem is in the new firmware. Only in this forum page we are in 3 with this issue and it's strange that all 3 are defective units.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 16, 2018, 01:13:46 pm
because with the previous firmware this issue was not there.

if the issue disappears with the previous firmware this could confirm that the problem is in the new firmware. Only in this forum page we are in 3 with this issue and it's strange that all 3 are defective units.
OK, yes.
If I had units in stock I could check but only demo until another week or two.

Shame as the new FW fixes a lot of bugs for me.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 16, 2018, 03:40:23 pm
because with the previous firmware this issue was not there.

if the issue disappears with the previous firmware this could confirm that the problem is in the new firmware. Only in this forum page we are in 3 with this issue and it's strange that all 3 are defective units.

I have seen this 3 times with 7.6.1.20.

First time when I first update previous. Then I did many kind of other things (test images etc) with scope using many functions and suddensly I note that Ch2 disappear when 10mV or 5mV/div. First what I did I reboot. Same. Then I selfcal. Then ok. Later, same again but Ch1 and at this time I can not be sure if scope was booted because it was nearly whole day I did many things  and then just suddenly I see same issue but Ch1 and it disappear after selfcals.
Now I reboot, run selfcal, reboot, run selfcal and after then, no issue what ever I do and including many boot ups..

Until I think I do really all kind of mad things like "what ever to get it visible". Reboot with flashing buttons, encoders etc... many ways... no issue. Until then I roll back to FW .12  (and heavy try for get this issue visible with this .12 version but I can not see it) and after this then upgrade again to .20

After then with many "random play and boot etc" trying I finally get this issue again with Ch1. And I do not know what exatly tricks issue on. (only I want proof it can exists and take images)

Attached image where can see  Ch1 signal is <-50mV. Also with vert pos adj it can not move at all.
There is nothing connected inputs.

After then I did not try so much many things (it IS time consuming...  my boot counter show now over 500!)
Without knowing if this is nessessary or not, I run selfcal, boot, selfcal, boot and after then I have not any luck to pop up this issue. Not even with boot time rapid fire Math and not with many kind of use. Just working normally. But, it is proofed it is there in some situation after FW from .12 to .20 so I hope Siglent find what it is and fix it

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on February 16, 2018, 06:15:38 pm
report:

reinstalled the .20 firmware and self cal, same problem but with different V/div settings. Downgraded to  .12, self cal and all works fine even after reboot
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on February 17, 2018, 09:03:37 pm
Just found the problem has returned (on .20 firmware), though at lower V/Div settings than before.

Signal is fine at 200mV, then disappears at 100mV and 50mV, but with fine tuning set, it will re-appear at 102mV and 99mV. The same can be reproduced around the 50mV setting.

EDIT: Problem has gone after a self calibration.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 19, 2018, 06:18:00 am
Hi,
Somehow I thought that 1204X-E has 2 totally independent ADCs. But if one uses 3 channels (1,2,3)  then  the channel 3 will also use 500 GSa/s and 7 Mpts max although only one channel is used.

SPI decoding works in  the latest firmware (.20) fine. It was a nice surprise that it is possible to use zoom for quick data examination of the decoded signal.

The source:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396423;image)
The decoded result:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396425;image)

Triggering on the byte 0x81:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396427;image)

Triggering on the byte 0x1:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396429;image)
 
UART decoding works as well. Max speed that I had tested was  921600 bauds.
The source:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396433;image)

The result:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396431;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: JPortici on February 19, 2018, 06:38:29 am
Somehow I thought that 1204X-E has 2 totally independent ADCs. But if one uses 3 channels (1,2,3)  then  the channel 3 will also use 500 GSa/s and 7 Mpts max although only one channel is used.

it probably depends on how the ADC sampling clock is generated, maybe there is only one path?

Quote
It was a nice surprise that it is possible to use zoom for quick data examination of the decoded signal.
a decoder that don't allow it is a shitty decoder.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 19, 2018, 07:21:38 am
Hello,

Does anybody know what "Power On Line" option means? It is located on the page 4 in the menu "Utility". Documentation says nothing about it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kvd on February 19, 2018, 07:25:23 am
Hello,

Does anybody know what "Power On Line" option means? It is located on the page 4 in the menu "Utility". Documentation says nothing about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJg__cRjSx0&feature=push-fr&attr_tag=OCliiGUnccxBmRly-6 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJg__cRjSx0&feature=push-fr&attr_tag=OCliiGUnccxBmRly-6)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 19, 2018, 07:48:04 am
Hi,
Somehow I thought that 1204X-E has 2 totally independent ADCs.
Oh but it does !
See #1 post in this thread.

Quote
But if one uses 3 channels (1,2,3)  then  the channel 3 will also use 500 GSa/s and 7 Mpts max although only one channel is used.
Yes, this is normal behavior in a DSO with 2 ADC's.
Only using 1+3 or 2+4 gives max sample rates. (or any one channel combination from each ADC)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 19, 2018, 07:54:03 am
SPI decoding works in  the latest firmware (.20) fine. It was a nice surprise that it is possible to use zoom for quick data examination of the decoded signal..............
Increasing the Transparency setting in the Display sub menu will result in not hiding traces under the Decode list.  ;) 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 19, 2018, 08:00:18 am
Hi,
Somehow I thought that 1204X-E has 2 totally independent ADCs. But if one uses 3 channels (1,2,3)  then  the channel 3 will also use 500 GSa/s and 7 Mpts max although only one channel is used.

My guess would be there will be not many DSOs that use different sample rates and memory depths across their analog channels. So the Siglent scopes are in no way special in this regard.

While technically possible, mixed sample rates / record lengths would increase the already very high complexity of the firmware while providing no true benefit in practical use. We need not even look under the hood, as it starts at the UI level already. Have you noticed the information at the upper right corner of the screen?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396443)
SDS1104X-E_Screen_Sa-Rate

The current record length and sample rate is displayed there. If this would not be the same for all channels, we’d need this bit of information to be individual for each channel, which would be both space consuming and probably confusing as well. And all that for one single (rare) use case, because:

With just one channel, we can only have one record length and sample rate.
With any two channels, we’ll always have the same sample rate and record length for both, no matter whether they are within the same channel group or not.
With four channels, we’ll always get half the sample rate / record length of a single channel.

So it is really only the 3-channel scenario that would allow a mix of individual/interleaved ADC configuration.

Just look at it as a scope that only allows 1, 2 or 4 channels and gives you the option to hide one of the 4 channels when it is not needed ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: borjam on February 19, 2018, 09:04:53 am
Hi,
Somehow I thought that 1204X-E has 2 totally independent ADCs.
Oh but it does !
See #1 post in this thread.
I think it would be rather confusing to have two different sampling rates on screen at the same time. After all you have a single time base for the four channels. So, no matter how much work the second converter is actually doing, it makes sense to use the same sample rate for all the signals on screen.

In this case they have done The Right Thing with the POLA™ approach (Principle of Least Surprise).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 19, 2018, 10:36:55 am
Also we need remember always bacround working waveform history buffer.
Also we need remember fast sequence mode.
These can be big hassle if diffferent channel have different amount of memory (and different max count of segments or wfms in normal mode history buffer.

Only acceptable solution is same amount of sample data length with all captured channels. Other way we may get lot of confusion and ranting how this work.
So, with 2 ADC it is 1 or 2 channel in use max 1GSa/s max 14M/channel and over 2 channel in use max 500MSa/s and max 7M/channel.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on February 19, 2018, 08:25:20 pm
Now the signal is dropping out at 1V and 100mV settings on .20 firmware, so permanently downgrading to .12 to see how stable it is.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 19, 2018, 10:54:56 pm
Now the signal is dropping out at 1V and 100mV settings on .20 firmware, so permanently downgrading to .12 to see how stable it is.

I connected all 4 inputs to the signal generator and went through the range 5mV - 50V for each channel - the signals did not drop.

Firmware 7.6.1.20
Hardware 00-03
FPGA version: 2018-01-20
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 20, 2018, 07:45:07 am
It is certain without any doubt that FW7.6.1.20 have error. With some settings and use some channel trace may disappear depending V/div setting including also that it may occur some times only with some fine steps. I have not found systematic way to get this error visible but still frequently I can get this error. (If trace is visible and do not any changes it stay visible and do not disappear randomly itself so it is not this kind of random.) It is not at all depending signal. Mostly it exist after turning V/div but what is other things combination and previously changed settings - I have not foud perfect repeatable logic.

I have not seen this error any time in perevious public shared FW what was 7.6.1.12.

Siglent vacation time is 13.-22-Feb. So there is not ony reaction from Siglent about this error. But there is waiting notifications about this when they arrive to work after "New Year" holiday.

If you have any problem with this issue (is it even possible that this error do not exist in all product lots), please downgrade back to previous FW and use it until this problem is solved. Allways upraded or downgraded FW, do least one selfcal after it is enough thermal equilibrium,  after >30 minutes continuously on.

Note:
after on, cold or warm, it do frequently some internal  self adjustment procedures until it have been on enough time on  for approximately thermal equilibrium (you can see this "hick-up" on the screen trace updating very short breaks if look carefully after start) . During this period do not selfcal, it is perhaps not useful. So, take seriously this: Do selfcal after least 30minute continuously without any breakon and nothing connected to input BNC's.

(pity, there is so many nice things in new FW and it have this kind of error)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 21, 2018, 01:07:55 am
I wonder what criteria was used to to choose deskew time limit for 1204X-E. Right now it is +/- 100ns which seems to be quite small. 

I was playing with a modified UNI-T 210E (added an oscilloscope output, the mod that has been done by many who do not have access to expensive current probes, i know that  UNI-T 210E has very limited bandwidth (around 3 kHz)  but for my current applications/experiments  that's ok) and noticed that even if I set one channel deskew to -100ns and another channel deskew to +100ns I still could not get two signals (voltage/current) match. It would probably have worked if the deskew range had been be bigger and then I could use the math  function for  power measurements.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 21, 2018, 08:56:30 am
I cannot believe that the included probes PP215 200MHz are what the label says due to their poor performance. I have a very old probe (around 27 years old, all labels are long gone due to extensive usage,  I used it when I was an E.E.),   I  also have a couple of P6100  100MHz probes I bought at AliExpress for a different oscope. Today I was probing some signals on 8 bit MCU using the standard probes and did not like the signal shape. So, I decided to compare all those probes and that is what I got (I was mostly paying attention to the rise/fall times)

All probes have been properly calibrated and used in 1:1 mode.

a) 27 year old probe - 20 ns  - yellow trace;
b) P6100  100MHz Chinese probe - 26 ns - blue trace;
c) P215 200Mhz - 33 ns - green trace;

The result speaks for itself.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396947;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396949;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396951;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396953;image)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 21, 2018, 10:01:23 am
The result speaks for itself.
They do.

Inexperience !
1x probe usage on a circuit sensitive to capacitive loading when 10x setting need be used.

Get the pamphlet/datasheet for each probe and examine input capacitance spec for 1x and 10x....then result will speak for itself.

Little traps like this await the unwary.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 21, 2018, 10:38:02 am
I cannot believe that the included probes PP215 200MHz are what the label says due to their poor performance. I have a very old probe (around 27 years old, all labels are long gone due to extensive usage,  I used it when I was an E.E.),   I  also have a couple of P6100  100MHz probes I bought at AliExpress for a different oscope. Today I was probing some signals on 8 bit MCU using the standard probes and did not like the signal shape. So, I decided to compare all those probes and that is what I got (I was mostly paying attention to the rise/fall times)

All probes have been properly calibrated and used in 1:1 mode.

Sorry to hear you’re unhappy with the PP215, because they are more than adequate in my book.

Probes performance is specified for x10 mode and this is what manufacturers focus on. Higher end scopes usually come with x10 probes exclusively, this even applies to the SDS2kX already.

Probe x1 mode generally is an emergency solution for tasks, where we want highest possible sensitivity whereas bandwidth and capacitive load are irrelevant. So this mostly comes down to probing power supply rails for ripple and noise. It is absolutely not recommended to probe digital buses in x1 mode, because the high capacitive load will affect rise time and propagation delay of the signals there as well. In analog circuits, carefree use of x1 probes can severely affect circuit performance and even lead to unwanted oscillations.

The data sheet for PP215 clearly states 6MHz bandwidth and up to 120pF input capacitance in x1 mode.
The actual bandwidth is much better than that, >9MHz (measured), which results in a rise time of <38ns (calculated). Yes, especially older probes tend to have more bandwidth up to 16MHz in x1 mode and there were (and still are) spezialized x1 probes that can go up to some 30MHz, but that does not change the fundamental problems of x1 probing as mentioned in the previous paragraph.

Here’s the frequency response graph for the PP510, which has identical specs to the PP215 in x1 mode.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396996)
SDS1104X-E_Probe_x1_BW

With the high input sensitivity of 500µV/div for the SDS1000X-E it should almost never be necessary to use x1 probes anyway.

Btw, Here are the specifications for the Keysight N2889A 350MHz Probe (much more expensive, you bet!):

•  Bandwidth: DC to 350MHz (@10:1), DC to 10MHz (@1:1)
•  Risetime: 1 nsec (@10:1), 35 nsec (@1:1) (10%-90%)
•  Attenuation ratio: 10:1/1:1
•  Input resistance: 10 M? (@10:1), 1 M? (@1:1 when terminated to 1M?)
•  Input capacitance: 11 pF(@10:1), 60 pF (@1:1)
•  Maximum input: 300 VRMS (or >400Vpk) CAT I/II (@10:1), 150 V RMS CAT I/II (@1:1)
•  Cable length: 1.3 m


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on February 21, 2018, 02:03:01 pm
It clearly is a loading problem.  In the 4th image where you have all 3 probes connected at the same time, all 3 traces look very similar to me.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 22, 2018, 06:14:22 am
TK, tautech & Performa01 in particular (I really appreciate your detailed explanation but I do hope you copied/pasted the part of/all the text instead of typing it)  thanks for answering. But I am still believe that enclosed probes (PP215) are poor performers comparing to my other probes (even one having lower bandwidth) in this test. I repeated it again this time using all (properly calibrated) probes in 1:10 mode.

The previous result (1:1):

a) 27 year old probe - 20 ns  - yellow trace;
b) PP6100  100MHz Chinese probe - 26 ns - blue trace;
c) PP215 200Mhz - 33 ns - green trace;

The second test (1:10):

a) 27 year old probe - 10 ns;
b) PP6100  100MHz Chinese probe - 10 ns;
c) PP215 200Mhz - 22 ns;

The result still speaks for itself and  PP215  will be the last probe I choose from those 3 probes. And no, I did not say that PP215  unusable, but I am saying that in this particular test PP6100 100MHz  probe outperformed it.


 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 22, 2018, 06:56:59 am
TK, tautech & Performa01 in particular (I really appreciate your detailed explanation but I do hope you copied/pasted the part of/all the text instead of typing it)  thanks for answering. But I am still believe that enclosed probes (PP215) are poor performers comparing to my other probes (even one having lower bandwidth) in this test. I repeated it again this time using all (properly calibrated) probes in 1:10 mode.

The previous result (1:1):

a) 27 year old probe - 20 ns  - yellow trace;
b) PP6100  100MHz Chinese probe - 26 ns - blue trace;
c) PP215 200Mhz - 33 ns - green trace;

The second test (1:10):

a) 27 year old probe - 10 ns;
b) PP6100  100MHz Chinese probe - 10 ns;
c) PP215 200Mhz - 22 ns;

The result still speaks for itself and  PP215  will be the last probe I choose from those 3 probes. And no, I did not say that PP215  unusable, but I am saying that in this particular test PP6100 100MHz  probe outperformed it.

Quote
c) PP215 200Mhz - 22 ns;

This result is really strange! Something is now wrong. Probe or use of probe.
Also PP6100 100M what I found is around same ballpark if look 10:1 input capacitance. So these load your signal around same.
It feels very strange if you really measure normal digital bus what are still quite low impedance typically or your probe is broken. Difference between PP6100 can not be so high, when look rise time from what ever source if all is ok when we talk this kind of very slow risetimes.

Typically probe test (characterizing probe)  need do using 50ohm output impedance terminated with 50ohm feed thru and probe tip connected to this feed thru termination using probe tip adapter for avoid GND inductance.

Can you show exactly your test setup (enough good picture) and with exatly with this setup, and then also exatly with this setup image from scope screen and explained all settings.

Do you have any reliable signal source what have known pulse rise time and this source impedance, example some known function generator)


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 22, 2018, 07:30:42 am
Just wanted to add a couple of things to Performa01's review of web server, the page 156, SDS1104X-E Review 07.pdf
This is very basic piece of software, indeed. Something is definitely wrong when it comes to using 1:10 probes.
For example:
From your browser connect to the oscope, press "Refresh" button to read the latest data from the device. In my case this is:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=397325;image)

Don't change anything either on the oscope or in the web interface, instead  just press  "Apply" and look at the scope / the screen - V-Scale has changed from 2V to 20V for all channels, i.e. was multiplied by 10

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=397327;image)

Another annoyance is that after you press "Apply" the channel adjustment type automatically changes from coarse to fine. So in order to quickly change vertical scale of all channels back  (on the oscope) you would have to set the adjustment type to coarse and after that  use the vertical scale knob.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 22, 2018, 11:05:48 am
The second test (1:10):

a) 27 year old probe - 10 ns;
b) PP6100  100MHz Chinese probe - 10 ns;
c) PP215 200Mhz - 22 ns;

The result still speaks for itself and  PP215  will be the last probe I choose from those 3 probes. And no, I did not say that PP215  unusable, but I am saying that in this particular test PP6100 100MHz  probe outperformed it.

You are right that the PP215 are certainly not the best probes money can buy; just look at the input capacitance, which is specified 16–20pF. Compare that to the Keysight N2889A specifications, where it is just 11pF – at 5 times the price, that is. If Siglent is going to ship the DSO with probes of that quality level and the price of the 4-channel model increases by $400,- because of that, most folks will be very unhappy and in fact, essentially no one would really appreciate that. The bells and whistles is what sells, not inconspicuous quality probes. The original probes are cheap and will serve most folks well and the ones who really need or want something better can always invest some serious money to buy whatever they want whenever they want.

It’s not that easy though and price is not the ultimate performance indicator, as the probe should be a good match for the rather complex input impedance of the scope. For instance, I have tested a bunch of probes on the Siglent SDS2304X, including a Keysight N2843A 500MHz probe, which happened to perform very similar to the old bulky (nameless!) 300MHz probes that shipped with the SDS2000 (without X), whereas I clearly prefer the characteristics of the Siglent SP2030A (shipped with the SDS2304X) over the Keysight – for that particular scope, that is. After all, the SP2030A extends the scope ±3dB bandwidth up to 450MHz! So one should be careful and keep in mind that higher price and/or more specified bandwidth does not automatically mean better performance … but more prestige at the most ;)

Back on topic - PP215. The 200MHz Siglent scopes have a specified (calculated!) rise time of 1.8ns and since the actual bandwidth is more like 240MHz, the real rise time is 1.4~1.5ns (measured!) accordingly. The rise time of the probes has to be added, but is not specified for the PP215. Since these are only 200MHz rated, we have to assume their rise time to be also some 1.8ns, which already means a total of about 2.4ns rise time. Then the signal source sure has some rise time too, which needs to be added as well (of course this is always the same so it could be ignored when just comparing probes).

What’s more important is probe input capacitance and source impedance. There we could get some unlucky combination that makes the probe look worse than it normally is – but by no means in the realm of double-digit nanoseconds when probing low impedance circuit nodes!

From previous tests I know that the PP215 does not limit the frequency response of a 200MHz frontend as in the SDS1202X-E. It performs pretty much the same as a direct coax connection and we get >240MHz bandwidth. From that measurement, its rise time has to be better than 1.5ns.

Just to be sure, I did a quick test right now to verify the performance of the PP215. Signal source for all following tests is a pulse generator with precisely 1ns rise time, repetition rate 1kHz, pulse width 50ns, amplitude 600mVpp, with a 50ohm through termination directly fitted to its output. Probe is connected via its BNC adapter accessory, ground lead is disconnected of course.

First the PP215 on the SDS1202X-E it was shipped with:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=397353;image)
PP215_x10_SDS1202X-E_1ns_Risetime_T

We get 2ns rise time and doing the math, knowing the signal source rise time to be 1ns and assuming the SDS1202X-E has 1.4ns, then there is just 1ns left for the PP215. Not bad at all…

Now let’s verify this on a faster scope, the SDS2304X, same test setup otherwise:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=397355;image)
PP215_x10_SDS2304X_1ns_Risetime_T

Doing the math again. We measured 1.75ns total rise time (toggling between 1.7 and 1.8 ), scope and signal source both have 1ns and there’s once again just a round single nanosecond left for the PP215.

Finally I wanted to know what does it look like with the (rather nice) 300MHz SP2030A probe, shipping with the SDS2304X?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=397357;image)
SP2030A_x10_SDS2304X_1ns_Risetime_T

It looks definitely different with less bad ringing. Now we get 1.6ns total rise time, minus 1ns for scope and signal source each, there is only 750ps left for the SP2030A. Not a significant difference on paper, but in practice, as the screenshots are illustrating.

In general, dealing with transition times close to 1ns, matters start getting a little tricky ;)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 22, 2018, 11:08:39 am
Just wanted to add a couple of things to Performa01's review of web server, the page 156, SDS1104X-E Review 07.pdf
This is very basic piece of software, indeed. Something is definitely wrong when it comes to using 1:10 probes.

Well, I only had a brief look at the web server as you can tell from my review. I use it regularly for pulling screenshots from the scope, but nothing else. So I’m not at all surprised that it still has some issues.

Quite frankly, I cannot be motivated to put a lot of effort in testing things I have no use for. I’ll point Siglent to your posting though.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 23, 2018, 02:46:57 am
Can you show exactly your test setup (enough good picture) and with exatly with this setup, and then also exatly with this setup image from scope screen and explained all settings.
Do you have any reliable signal source what have known pulse rise time and this source impedance, example some known function generator)

rf-loop thanks for your willingness to help but before you start spending your time let me repeat the test with other PP215 probes that came with my oscope (at the moment I have only one).
I don't have a calibrated signal generator with knows rise/fall time, I just used a 16 MHz MCU, the output pin has a  1k  pull-up resistor.

Just to be sure, I did a quick test right now to verify the performance of the PP215. Signal source for all following tests is a pulse generator with precisely 1ns rise time, repetition rate 1kHz, pulse width 50ns, amplitude 600mVpp, with a 50ohm through termination directly fitted to its output. Probe is connected via its BNC adapter accessory, ground lead is disconnected of course.
Performa01  thanks for the very extensive and detailed test, I think it's much more trustworthy than mine.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: josip on February 23, 2018, 09:58:00 am
Performa01, thank you for details with pictures, but one is missing SP2030A_x10_SDS1202X-E_1ns_Risetime_T.png  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rigol52 on February 23, 2018, 10:50:00 am
Performa01, thank you for details with pictures, but one is missing SP2030A_x10_SDS1202X-E_1ns_Risetime_T.png  :popcorn:

Probably you need to click on it again - it open without problem with me here.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 23, 2018, 12:06:52 pm
Performa01, thank you for details with pictures, but one is missing SP2030A_x10_SDS1202X-E_1ns_Risetime_T.png  :popcorn:

Excellent request!

It turned out that this is a perfect example to back my warnings about using random probes with your instrument, just because they have a higher bandwidth rating and/or are coming from a higher prestigious brand.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=397788;image)
SP2030A_x10_SDS1202X-E_1ns_Risetime_T

The SP2030A is a 300MHz probe that clearly performs better than the PP215 when tested on the scope it belongs to – the SDS2304X. But on the SDS1202X, rise time gets even worse: 2.3ns vs. 2.0ns! (The transition time measurements are flickering between 2.2 and 2.4ns)

How can that be?

The most important (and expensive) part of any scope probe is the cable, that should be low capacitance and needs to have some well defined resistance for the inner conductor (around 200 ohms) in order to damp the resonance effects from the ill-terminated characteristic cable impedance. The optimum cable resistance depends on the circuit details of the scope input and on the SP2030A it quite obviously is just right for the SDS2304X, but a tad too high for the SDS1202X-E.

Some people like to replace their multimeter probes immediately after purchase with “sexier” ones and that is perfectly fine (except that I never did it because I have no use for these impractical probes at all in a lab, be they sexy or not). But for a scope, you should not replace the original probes with random ones without a second thought, just because they look sexier or have a higher bandwidth rating – only inexperienced folks do that. You might end up with an unpleasant surprise if you take the time to actually measure the performance of the probe/scope combination. Of course there’s always a chance that it actually fits well, but you should be able to verify that beforehand.

As a verdict, even though the SP2030A is a much nicer and higher quality probe (x10 only!) with index pin and 300MHz bandwidth rating, even though it performs beautifully on a SDS2304X, cannot be recommended as a performance upgrade over the PP215, at least not for the 200MHz versions of the SDS1000X-E series scopes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 23, 2018, 12:54:56 pm
I don't have a calibrated signal generator with knows rise/fall time, I just used a 16 MHz MCU, the output pin has a  1k  pull-up resistor.

You write you use a MCU output pin with 1k pull-up resistor in your circuit. I do hope that output is not configured as a single ended open drain driver and the pull-up is just there to ensure a logic high level when that MCU GPIO pin is configured as input.

Because otherwise we have 1k source resistance for the rising edge. You could easily prove that by looking at the falling edge – if this is much faster, than it is actually an open drain output.

1k ohm is already a very high impedance when it comes to high frequencies (or short rise times for that matter).

Just for fun, I turned into a scope probe designer for a little while and designed a x10 probe for the SDS1202X-E, with 1.2 meters cable length and about 15pF input capacitance. Here is the circuit:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=397797;image)
Probe x10_50_25 CD

The most important part is the lossy cable, here is the data:

Resistance = 186 ohms
Inductance = 300 nH
Capacitance = 120 pF

As can be seen, the circuit already contains the standard test setup: Signal generator with 50 ohms source impedance and 50 ohms through termination directly on its output, resulting in a total source impedance of 25 ohms, as seen by the probe.

Of course we could use this same probe and connect it to a circuit node that represents an unterminated 1k ohm source impedance. It would look like this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=397799;image)
Probe x10_50_1k CD

Now let’s compare the frequency response of these two scenarios:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=397801;image)
Probe x10_50 FR

What a difference. My probe design performs well up to almost 300MHz within +/- 1dB when probing a 25 ohm source impedance node. The -3dB bandwidth is more than 400MHz, equivalent to <1ns rise time. For 1k ohm, we barely get 10MHz -3dB bandwidth, which means some 35ns rise time.

The question remains, why do the other probes perform more than twice as good?

They could have a lower input capacitance, but this could not explain the huge difference. Even the Keysight probe with only 11pF input capacitance and assuming the PP215 actually had 20pF (which I really doubt, 16pF is much more likely) could not turn 22ns into 10ns.

The actual difference in capacitive loading has to be lower anyway, as there is some capacity in the circuit already – The GPIO port pin of a typical MCU alone can have up to 10pF. Then add the board traces and everything that is connected to them. With just 10pF circuit capacitance, the difference in capacitive loading would be 30pF/21pF worst case and the Keysight probe would measure at least 15ns when the PP215 measures 22ns.

So there must be something else going on…
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 23, 2018, 01:40:42 pm
Sidenote:
Many good and more expensive probes are really different animals than some Rigol-Siglent-Gratlent-Whatlent scopes standard accessory ones.

They have also more adjustments than just this usual "LF" compensation what everyone turn as needed.

Attached example about quite simple and not so bad class HP probe. (part of instructions)

More deep adjustments can do also in many probes. But these adjustments must not do without needed equipments.
Some different passive probes have enen more adjustments for compromise highest, middle and low freq and very fast edge response and then also adjustment for DC level error. Some probes are quuite tricy to adjust for perfect response with just one individual scope and just individual channel because in final game all are bit different, not only installed compoonents inside scope but also bit different paarasitics in scope, cable and probe tip and adjustment box.

And we do not forget Tektronix special probe cables what of course have some "impedance" but also inner wire have designed resistance what is also part of damping ringing.
Then expensive probes are also mechanically very different. Example some older Tek and HP passive probes are made for repair. All spare parts was available... tips, cables etc--- all replaceable.

--------------

About this previous @17_29bis test.

OpenCollector type output with 1k pullup. This explain more than enough this result with P215.
1kOhm  and if think roughly around 100pF 1:1 probe setting. It acts like single RC LP filter.  LP cut-off freq is 1.6MHz without parasitics etc calculation because they are unknown and just only for imagine what is going on. But they do here things only even more bad.
Also pulse response to up direction is slower than down due to fact that C charge/discharce is not symmetrical (To up this passive 1kOhm and in this case this active down component in your MCU what may have quite low impedance but sure faster than up with 1kOhm pull up resistor. )

---------------
Nice probe work @Performa01


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 23, 2018, 07:04:04 pm
They could have a lower input capacitance, but this could not explain the huge difference. Even the Keysight probe with only 11pF input capacitance and assuming the PP215 actually had 20pF (which I really doubt, 16pF is much more likely) could not turn 22ns into 10ns.
Little side note:
PP215 10:1 input capacitance is listed on the probe brochure and in Siglent websites as 13 or 14 pF......not 16pF

OpenCollector type output with 1k pullup. This explain more than enough this result with P215.
1kOhm  and if think roughly around 100pF 1:1 probe setting. It acts like single RC LP filter.
Exactly  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 23, 2018, 07:31:48 pm
They could have a lower input capacitance, but this could not explain the huge difference. Even the Keysight probe with only 11pF input capacitance and assuming the PP215 actually had 20pF (which I really doubt, 16pF is much more likely) could not turn 22ns into 10ns.
Little side note:
PP215 10:1 input capacitance is listed on the probe brochure and in Siglent websites as 13 or 14 pF......not 16pF

Well, then that's Siglent's fault.  :-DD

I've got my data from there "SIGLENT_Probe_Datasheet V1.5" which I've downloaded just a week ago (see attachment).

But you are right: The little card that comes in the probe bag lists the input capacitance as 14pF  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 23, 2018, 07:56:19 pm
Anyone interested in a more detailed probe comparison, I've just published one in my SDS1004X-E review thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 23, 2018, 07:56:54 pm
They could have a lower input capacitance, but this could not explain the huge difference. Even the Keysight probe with only 11pF input capacitance and assuming the PP215 actually had 20pF (which I really doubt, 16pF is much more likely) could not turn 22ns into 10ns.
Little side note:
PP215 10:1 input capacitance is listed on the probe brochure and in Siglent websites as 13 or 14 pF......not 16pF

Well, then that's Siglent's fault.  :-DD
It is !

We need remember these probes are supplied by a third party and Siglent staff have made error when copying specs onto their webpage. The card in the probe pouch should always be the final and absolute reference in all cases as it comes from the probe manufacturer. I highly value the card and have them for any and all new probes I have ever bought !

Quote
But you are right: The little card that comes in the probe bag lists the input capacitance as 14pF
I've got some for PP215 that list it as 13 pF, who to believe ?  ::)


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TheSteve on February 23, 2018, 08:14:26 pm
Believe the LCR meter used to measure what the probes actually are.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 23, 2018, 08:15:30 pm
Believe the LCR meter used to measure what the probes actually are.
At what frequency ?  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 23, 2018, 08:20:18 pm
We need remember these probes are supplied by a third party and Siglent staff have made error when copying specs onto their webpage. The card in the probe pouch should always be the final and absolute reference in all cases as it comes from the probe manufacturer. I highly value the card and have them for any and all new probes I have ever bought !

Well, there are obviously not so many probe manufacturers and except for Tektronix, even the big brands use third party - at least sometimes. But the probe manufacturers can make mistakes too - I don't think Siglent have reserved all possible errors in this world exclusively for themselves  :-DD


Quote
But you are right: The little card that comes in the probe bag lists the input capacitance as 14pF
I've got some for PP215 that list it as 13 pF, who to believe ?  ::)

See? That would NOT be Siglent's fault for a change ;)

On a more serious note, I've got one of the very first SDS1202X-E and the probe manufacturer might just have updated their specs at some point. And then, 13 or 14 pF, not a huge difference anymore, really. Up to 20 on the other hand ... would have been a bit alarming.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TheSteve on February 23, 2018, 08:35:58 pm
Believe the LCR meter used to measure what the probes actually are.
At what frequency ?  ;)

I found my Tek and Agilent probes to measure the same up to 100 kHz(max of my LCR meter). I've measured all of my probes including active ones.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: chipss on February 23, 2018, 09:12:39 pm
Pp215 probe card received today?
Input capacitance 1x85pf-120pf / 10x 18.5pf-22.5 ?
It’s what my card tells me?  ???
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 23, 2018, 09:19:26 pm
Pp215 probe card received today?
Input capacitance 1x85pf-120pf / 10x 18.5pf-22.5 ?
It’s what my card tells me?  ???

That would be the specification for PP510 - according to the Probe Datasheet V1.5, which in turn doesn't always comply with the probe cards.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: chipss on February 23, 2018, 10:02:04 pm
The card is for a pp215, and came with the sds1202x-e , today, that is what’s printed on the card for my pp215?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 23, 2018, 10:06:37 pm
Pp215 probe card received today?
Input capacitance 1x85pf-120pf / 10x 18.5pf-22.5 ?
It’s what my card tells me?  ???

That would be the specification for PP510 - according to the Probe Datasheet V1.5, which in turn doesn't always comply with the probe cards.  :-//

Performa01 & tautech I don't know what kind of PP215 you have/use but this is what comes with 1204X-E:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=398045;image)

This is comparison (PP6100). Am I the only one who sees that the declared/stated capacitance of PP6100 is even lower than PP215? 

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=398047;image)

I don't have a calibrated signal generator with knows rise/fall time, I just used a 16 MHz MCU, the output pin has a  1k  pull-up resistor.



Because otherwise we have 1k source resistance for the rising edge. You could easily prove that by looking at the falling edge – if this is much faster, than it is actually an open drain output.


Interesting assumption but the screenshots I attached for every probe clearly show that rise and fall times are the same.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 23, 2018, 10:07:04 pm
Okay, guys, enough guessing!

I've now measured both the PP510 and PP215 and they are pretty much identical.

Probe tip capacitance is 14.9pF for the probe alone and 15.3pF when plugged into the scope.

Of course, the probe tip capacitance depends on the compensation, as the compensation trimmer is the main capacitive coupling path to the cable (and scope input) capacitance. This is also why usually a span is specified. Consequently I've measured both probes when properly compensated for their respective scope, i.e. the PP215 on SDS1202X-E and PP510 on SDS1104X-E, as this is the only relevant use case.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 23, 2018, 10:13:56 pm
The card is for a pp215, and came with the sds1202x-e , today, that is what’s printed on the card for my pp215?
Very interesting, thanks for your reply.

I have bought probe quality concerns to Siglent's attention before and I will again for your PP215 !
The SDS1004X-E product manager informed me that he would keep an eye on their suppliers product.

Email sent.

Performa01 & tautech I don't know what kind of PP215 you have/use but this is what comes with 1204X-E:
PP215 is also supplied as the standard probe for 200 MHz SDS1202X-E.

If there are discrepancies with this product they must be addressed. Maybe it is only the documentation ?  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 24, 2018, 12:35:35 am
Performa01 & tautech I don't know what kind of PP215 you have/use but this is what comes with 1204X-E:

Well, of course I can only speak for what I have. The PP215 is about a year old and the PP510 about 6 months and both perform very similar and have the exact same probe tip capacitance.

See attachments for the PP215 (sorry for the poor image quality).


Interesting assumption but the screenshots I attached for every probe clearly show that rise and fall times are the same.

Sorry, I just forgot that – I’m doing so many things in parallel. Somehow I thought I had seen a screenshot zoomed on the rising edge and didn’t look back in the thread.

Anyway, we don’t seem to get any plausible answer to the question why your PP215 performance appears to be so poor. I’m rather confident the PP215 that I have would not go under so badly in a comparison against the other probes you’ve used. But obviously something is different at your side.

I guess we can only wait and see what tautech finds out. Maybe Siglent could test a sample of their currently shipped PP215 probes and verify their performance.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 24, 2018, 12:40:57 am
See attachments for the PP215 (sorry for the poor image quality).

I have already seen it and even compared with PP610, see my post above with 2 attached screenshots.
EDIT: and what is really funny is that your and my scans don't match.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: chipss on February 24, 2018, 02:07:52 am
My probe and card is a exact match to 17-29,bis same probe yet different specs? confusing. My cap tester is not all that great. But I may take a look at it anyway.
 I must say for an economy class scope , what would this have costed 20 years ago!

 :-DD it shall work fine for my needs, plus a few options That are overkill, mainly setting bias in mics, and mic pre amps, compressors, and eq’s.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 24, 2018, 04:30:09 am
I guess we can only wait and see what tautech finds out. Maybe Siglent could test a sample of their currently shipped PP215 probes and verify their performance.
Yes, maybe this what they'll do.

Initial reply from the product manager is they will look into this and update documentation if required.
He offers thanks for bringing this to their attention.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 24, 2018, 07:24:10 am
I found a bug related to displaying long IC2 decoded packets, I am running the latest X.20 firmware.
Look at the first column in the table, we cannot see the row 9:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=398208;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=398210;image)

But if I change the number of lines in the table then we see the row 9 just fine:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=398206;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=398212;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on February 24, 2018, 02:25:28 pm
Is it missing row 11 as well on picture #2?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 25, 2018, 03:26:42 am
Is it missing row 11 as well on picture #2?

This is not a missing row, this is just data corruption shown in the table.

I would like to report on the recently found problems/bugs:

1) Table corruption. This is how that can be reproduced (X.20 lastest firmware, I2C 7 bit address is used) :

a) program the i2C master to send 54 byte long payload - check the result (everything is fine):


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=398545;image)



b) program the i2C master to send 55 byte long payload - check the result (the record index has been replaced by some data):



(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=398547;image)



c) program the i2C master to send 70 byte long payload - check the result (the first 3 columns in the table were overwritten by the previously decoded data):


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=398549;image)


2) I also noticed that sometimes the last saved screenshot is not saved on the USB drive. it might be a result of some caching and I am not sure how to handle properly  safe removal of USB drive since looks like 1204X-E does not provide any options for that.

3) And finally: looks like Siglent does not provide a way to inspect data payload longer than 0x15 bytes. The max number of bytes displayed in the single row of the table is 0x10 and there is no horizontal scrolling. The max number of decoded bytes shown at the bottom of the screen about ox16 without a possibility to properly scroll it. Before someone suggests to use horizontal position/scale knob he has to try  it first since it does not work. That, seemingly minor thing, upsets me the most since it might be a design flaw and therefore cannot be easily fixed without major changes.

I would appreciate if one of Siglent distributors reported these bugs to Siglent.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 25, 2018, 04:00:25 am

I would like to report on the recently found problems/bugs:
 
2) I also noticed that sometimes the last saved screenshot is not saved on the USB drive. it might be a result of some caching and I am not sure how to handle properly  safe removal of USB drive since looks like 1204X-E does not provide any options for that.
There has never been provision for USB 'safe removal' in Siglent equipment. Instead a saving bar graph indicator lets you see progress of the Save. A USB stick with a read/write LED can be useful to let you see the drive is not working.

Quote
3) And finally: looks like Siglent does not provide a way to inspect data payload longer than 0x15 bytes. The max number of bytes displayed in the single row of the table is 0x10 and there is no horizontal scrolling. The max number of decoded bytes shown at the bottom of the screen about ox16 without a possibility to properly scroll it. Before someone suggests to use horizontal position/scale knob he has to try  it first since it does not work. That, seemingly minor thing, upsets me the most since it might be a design flaw and therefore cannot be easily fixed without major changes.

Quote
I would appreciate if one of Siglent distributors reported these bugs to Siglent.
Noted, thanks.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 25, 2018, 05:28:44 am
Simple Bode plot exercise/example.

1 KHz to 30 KHz passive band pass filter.
Components breadboarded from parts on hand.
Based entirely on the circuit example from here:
https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/filter_4.html (https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/filter_4.html)

(https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/filter-fil85.gif)



Should give us something like this:

(https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/filter-fil17.gif)


SDS1104X-E
Sweep source SAG1021 optional AWG module
Connection HW; BNC cable and Tee, 2x BNC to croc clip leads (DUT IN, DUT OUT)

Sweep = 100 Hz - 100 KHz, 4V p-p, Low res

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=398589)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rigol52 on February 25, 2018, 06:17:45 am
Nice demo tautech, thanks.

Are visual differences between each curve possible in color too, or in trace light intensity only?

Curious how much more cable mess are added to desktop measurement procedure by deciding
to external (USB connected) SAG1021 instead to build in one? Personally prefer build-in one or
standalone AWG. One more reason to invest in SDG1062X (or SDG1032X) before SAG1021.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 25, 2018, 07:18:44 am
Nice demo tautech, thanks.
You're welcome and it's been on my mind to do it for some time.
Actually I might go back and do the same one again, this time with a plot of the first stage of the pass band.
Have to get my head around what I'm trying to show first.  :-/O  :-//
3 plotted stages are allowed with the 4 inputs.

Quote
Are visual differences between each curve possible in color too, or in trace light intensity only?
Trace colors are the same as the channel colors but you can only select from three as one is reserved for the reference signal input. There is no restriction on the channel you select for ref or DUT output (Bode plot input).
The fainter trace is phase shift and referenced from the RH graph axis.
I've cranked trace and graticule brightness to max for this screenshot to help with visibility.

Quote
Curious how much more cable mess are added to desktop measurement procedure by deciding
to external (USB connected) SAG1021 instead to build in one?

Little, in fact only the mains supply cable for a standalone AWG and that'll be behind a unit anyway.
You still need to tether it by USB when in Bode plot mode for the scope to take charge of it. But that can be done behind both units as 1004X-E's have a rear USB-A just for this purpose. Standalone's have USB-B on the rear but both these scopes and SDG's come supplied each with a A-B USB cable.
So effectively if using a Siglent standalone and all rear cabling there is one less cable on the bench than with SAG1021.

Quote
Personally prefer build-in one or standalone AWG. One more reason to invest in SDG1062X (or SDG1032X) before SAG1021.
Understood, but at least buyers can have a # of options depending on their needs.
The cheapest is to just get SAG1021 IF Bode plot functionality is all you need, then for a bit more the AWG license for it to give full (but somewhat limited) AWG capability.
Then of course any of the 2ch Siglent AWG's would be the best choice to get something that will do Bode plot and not be so easily outgrown.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 26, 2018, 06:49:08 am
Hi,
I've updated my SDS1104X-E with the new firmware but now I notice something strange on channel 4.
I can't see any signal with 50V/div, 5V/div, 1V/div, 200 mv/div (probe set to x10, with x1 the values are 5V, 500mV, 100mV, 20mV). To be more precise I can see the signal only for an instant after changing the V/div scale and then it disappears.
I never noticed this with the previous fimware so I think that is a firmware problem.

can someone check this? or can I try something to figure out what is going on?

Thanks
Now that the factory is back at work after Chinese new year hols and after checking they were aware of issues with v7.6.1.20, they've replied that they're trying to get a replacement firmware version out this later week.

I found a bug related to displaying long IC2 decoded packets, I am running the latest X.20 firmware.
Look at the first column in the table, we cannot see the row 9:
.............
If they can fit it in they'll try and address this too but their immediate focus is to fix the problem in v7.6.1.20

Thanks guys.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on February 26, 2018, 07:41:00 am
Now that the factory is back at work after Chinese new year hols and after checking they were aware of issues with v7.6.1.20, they've replied that they're trying to get a replacement firmware version out this later week.

thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 26, 2018, 08:18:19 am
Actually I might go back and do the same one again, this time with a plot of the first stage of the pass band.
2 passive filter stages Bode plot example.
From previous:

(https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/fil16.gif)

This time we're using a total of three scope inputs, one for ref and two from the filter for the plot. As before in green for the full band pass filter and then another connection from the middle plotting just the high pass stage, now displayed in cyan.
No settings were changed although the Bode plot auto-ranging has changed the look of the plotted display.
3x BNC to croc clip leads used now, all I have. (for now)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=399022)
 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 26, 2018, 10:17:31 am
After nice bode plot examples by @Tautech

About aliasing and scope BW.

If we have 500MSa/s sampling and oscolloscope front end is nominally 200MHz or 100MHz and front ends do not have quite rare "brickwall" response we have mostly slowly decaying shape after nominal frequency limit (-3dB points). After then front end can still transfer more or less attenuated lot of higher frequency components to ADC input.
If they are included to ADC sampling they produce aliases if these components are over Nyquist frequency if we have ideal Sinc construction and infinite data. But we do not have. Depending about what level of accuracy we talk and depending Sinc function parameters etc we can say some rough thumb rule that mostly visually somehow acceptable limit is around 70 - 85% from Nyquist limit. Depending Sinc and depending also how critically we look this. But, if we need really example measure with higher accuracy risetimes we need throw away this kind of over simplified thumb rules.
No need now go dfeeper but who want, can easy find some calculation examples for find real needs related to needes risetime but also samplerate.

Back to main road.

This image is example what show that two scopes many ways same (same Sinc performance etc) and both 500MSa/s. Other front end is 100MHz and other 200MHz. It can clearly show that 100MHz BW can give some protection against aliasing. Naturally, because 100MHz model ADC (both have same ADC) see less these frequency components what go to area where aliasing start.


Both scopes get equal signal. All is equal exept front end before ADC. 
There is some possible that 100MHz model have also some differencies in signal handling after ADC but, once produced aliases can not remove by software and only what poroduce aliasing is ADC so around all what matters is what signal ADC see. (this have totally nothing to do with screen pixel "aliasing" so do not mix this alising here at all - it is only cosmetic for eye). THis test signal most important think is rise and fall time. Not so much its shape other way. These edges are these what are important for harmonics what go far over both scopes Nyquist frequency and very specially when sampolerate is 500MSa/s (SDS1202X-E both channels in use)

Images marked A,B,C and D show this effect.
This effect of course dissappear if I remove these high frequency components from signal before scope input. Example using slower rise times.

Here need note that this used signal is far over these both scopes performance. If you need accurately measure this kind of signal these both oscilloscopes are not suitable. They can not hadle well this kind of signals higher frequency components specially if sample rate is dropped to 500MSa/s. With 1GSa/s there is not so much aliasing but still signal rtise times are far over these both scopes. But with 500MHz Nyquist and even 400MHz (0.8 Nyquist) ADC do not see lot of these higher components due to front end attenuation also with 200MHz model)

If our signal do not exeed scope performance this problem (aliasing) do not exista. And here come this - is it really wise to hack BW up if it leads high or very extreme aliasing. If want better oscilloscope by own modifications, one good  place is analog front end before ADC and there making BW shape more like flat top and then very fast decaying so that  0.8 * Nyquist is highly attrenuated.
It is very different if we are talking oscilloscopes what do real repetitive aka equal time sampling for continuous signals. There we can tweak front end up without first hit aliasing problems.

There in image is last parts where oscilloscopes are in DOTS mode.
These oscilloscopes dots mode is not at all like repetitive sampling (equal time sampling) dots.
After scope and actual signal is in "aliasing position" this dots mode also is affected due to aliasing but it still looks like it draw only single line (sequential dots on the screen looks more or less like line depending dots density) but line is more or less bended (some times they may look very weird) but in some cases it do not give this warning about aliasing .. like lines display modes give due to lines "wobbling" areas. (some times you see only example corners very fat in lines draw mode (linear or sinc) but if signal itself do not have this wobbling it is always ign about aliasing what user need regognize as warning about possible aliasing.   But this dot mode do not give directly this warning. (exept if user have experience and know that there is now something wrong)
Of course wise user immediately check aliasing turning changing from dots mode to vector (lines) mode and then linear or Sinc.  Some cases linear is better for digital pulse/squarte type signals even if they are not so nice looking cosmetically. (not Sinc overshoot. Compare images marked A and C where A show lor of Sinc overhoot.)


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=399073;image)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on February 26, 2018, 03:48:39 pm
Little, in fact only the mains supply cable for a standalone AWG and that'll be behind a unit anyway.
You still need to tether it by USB when in Bode plot mode for the scope to take charge of it. But that can be done behind both units as 1004X-E's have a rear USB-A just for this purpose. Standalone's have USB-B on the rear but both these scopes and SDG's come supplied each with a A-B USB cable.
So effectively if using a Siglent standalone and all rear cabling there is one less cable on the bench than with SAG1021.

Hi Tautech,

I've got the 1104 and the 1032 and was experimenting with the Bode mode.  In the manual, it states that the 1104 can connect to the AWG via LAN as well, however, I tried it (briefly) and I couldn't get it to work.  Are you saying that only the USB connection will work?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 26, 2018, 04:10:38 pm
I've got the 1104 and the 1032 and was experimenting with the Bode mode.  In the manual, it states that the 1104 can connect to the AWG via LAN as well, however, I tried it (briefly) and I couldn't get it to work.  Are you saying that only the USB connection will work?

I can confirm that AWG control over LAN does not work with the current 7.6.1.20 firmware. Even worse, the AWG gets locked up and it takes quite some time until the scope finally reports that it failed to connect to the AWG.

I've already notified the responsible persons at Siglent.

EDIT: SDG device control over USB works.
EDIT 2: It turned out that it was a specific problem with my early pre-production unit of the SDS1104X-E, which was easily cured by sending just one command to the device.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on February 26, 2018, 04:18:59 pm
I've got the 1104 and the 1032 and was experimenting with the Bode mode.  In the manual, it states that the 1104 can connect to the AWG via LAN as well, however, I tried it (briefly) and I couldn't get it to work.  Are you saying that only the USB connection will work?

I can confirm that AWG control over LAN does not work with the current 7.6.1.20 firmware. Even worse, the AWG gets locked up and it takes quite some time until the scope finally reports that it failed to connect to the AWG.

I've already notified the responsible persons at Siglent.

EDIT: SDG device control over USB works.

Thanks for the quick confirmation, Performa01!  I actually did re-scan your review documents first before I posted (which are excellent by the way!)  I'm also running 7.6.1.20.  I guess it's USB connectivity for now...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rigol52 on February 26, 2018, 05:02:02 pm
After nice bode plot examples by @Tautech

About aliasing and scope BW.


Thanks for more valuable explanation, tests and infos than in Siglent  user manual rf-loop (Tautech, Performa01 and other contributors as well).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 26, 2018, 07:54:15 pm

I can confirm that AWG control over LAN does not work with the current 7.6.1.20 firmware.
I've already notified the responsible persons at Siglent.

EDIT: SDG device control over USB works.
Oh dear.....all this Bode plot connectivity worked fine even in beta test units.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Siglent America on February 26, 2018, 08:20:28 pm
Hi,
I've updated my SDS1104X-E with the new firmware but now I notice something strange on channel 4.
I can't see any signal with 50V/div, 5V/div, 1V/div, 200 mv/div (probe set to x10, with x1 the values are 5V, 500mV, 100mV, 20mV). To be more precise I can see the signal only for an instant after changing the V/div scale and then it disappears.
I never noticed this with the previous fimware so I think that is a firmware problem.

can someone check this? or can I try something to figure out what is going on?

Thanks

We are working on a fix for this right now and I expect to see a FW upgrade very soon.
Thanks
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on February 26, 2018, 10:42:06 pm

I can confirm that AWG control over LAN does not work with the current 7.6.1.20 firmware.
I've already notified the responsible persons at Siglent.

EDIT: SDG device control over USB works.
Oh dear.....all this Bode plot connectivity worked fine even in beta test units.  :-//

Ok, so I tried the USB connection from 1104->1032 and it works.  Then, for giggles, I went back and re-configured for LAN and it worked!  I then unplugged the USB cable just to make sure and it still works.  I don't know if I fat-fingered something the first time or what?  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 26, 2018, 11:30:36 pm

I can confirm that AWG control over LAN does not work with the current 7.6.1.20 firmware.
I've already notified the responsible persons at Siglent.

EDIT: SDG device control over USB works.
Oh dear.....all this Bode plot connectivity worked fine even in beta test units.  :-//

Ok, so I tried the USB connection from 1104->1032 and it works.  Then, for giggles, I went back and re-configured for LAN and it worked!  I then unplugged the USB cable just to make sure and it still works.  I don't know if I fat-fingered something the first time or what?  :-//
I haven't checked lately but when I beta tested 1104X-E I had some little problems too until I got my head around proper LAN configuration. There were no English manuals back then and if you didn't do this sort of stuff everyday (I don't) it was a little battle so I'll check the latest manual when I have a mo to see if the connectivity instructions need any improvements.

Anyways, you're up and running now.  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on February 27, 2018, 12:40:24 am
I made a similar filter as your last post, with similar results using the LAN configuration.  However, I think I might be running into the disappearing trace bug someone else mentioned that is confusing the plot when I use channel 4.  I'm still investigating, but my channel 4 trace disappears when vertical = 2V/ and 200mV/.   :wtf:

Yes,this is definitely the case.  The last pic shows the correct ch 4 trace on the bode plot when it's at 1V/.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 27, 2018, 08:33:02 am

2) I also noticed that sometimes the last saved screenshot is not saved on the USB drive. it might be a result of some caching and I am not sure how to handle properly  safe removal of USB drive since looks like 1204X-E does not provide any options for that.
There has never been provision for USB 'safe removal' in Siglent equipment. Instead a saving bar graph indicator lets you see progress of the Save. A USB stick with a read/write LED can be useful to let you see the drive is not working.


When the file is saved on the USB drive, there is a message on the 1204X-E screen saying that the file has been saved. And if in 5 minutes after the message has been shown the flash drive is removed and the file mentioned in the message is not saved on the drive then I don't see how a a read/write LED  can change it.
I wonder what kind of USB drives are supported by 1204X-E (I cannot find any info in the documentation). I have 4 different USB drivers ranging from cheap 4GB USB2.0 to expensive Samsung T1 USB 3.0 250GB and the only USB flash drive that works is the old and really slow 4GB USB 2.0. In all other cases after connecting a new USB flash drive nothing really happens (i.e. there is no message saying that the drive was connected) , but after 4-7 seconds  there is a message on the screen saying - " USB flash drive removed." - at this moment the USB flash is still connected to 1204X-E but obviously not recognized.
May be there is some file system type/ drive size / power consumption limitations that we should be aware of ?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 27, 2018, 09:15:31 am

2) I also noticed that sometimes the last saved screenshot is not saved on the USB drive. it might be a result of some caching and I am not sure how to handle properly  safe removal of USB drive since looks like 1204X-E does not provide any options for that.
There has never been provision for USB 'safe removal' in Siglent equipment. Instead a saving bar graph indicator lets you see progress of the Save. A USB stick with a read/write LED can be useful to let you see the drive is not working.


When the file is saved on the USB drive, there is a message on the 1204X-E screen saying that the file has been saved. And if in 5 minutes after the message has been shown the flash drive is removed and the file mentioned in the message is not saved on the drive then I don't see how a a read/write LED  can change it.
I wonder what kind of USB drives are supported by 1204X-E (I cannot find any info in the documentation). I have 4 different USB drivers ranging from cheap 4GB USB2.0 to expensive Samsung T1 USB 3.0 250GB and the only USB flash drive that works is the old and really slow 4GB USB 2.0. In all other cases after connecting a new USB flash drive nothing really happens (i.e. there is no message saying that the drive was connected) , but after 4-7 seconds  there is a message on the screen saying - " USB flash drive removed." - at this moment the USB flash is still connected to 1204X-E but obviously not recognized.
May be there is some file system type/ drive size / power consumption limitations that we should be aware of ?
There certainly is but with a quick look through the documentation I can't find it.  >:(

But it's something like FAT 32, 8 Gb max.

rf-loop should know exactly............meanwhile I'll look some more.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 27, 2018, 09:46:30 am

2) I also noticed that sometimes the last saved screenshot is not saved on the USB drive. it might be a result of some caching and I am not sure how to handle properly  safe removal of USB drive since looks like 1204X-E does not provide any options for that.
There has never been provision for USB 'safe removal' in Siglent equipment. Instead a saving bar graph indicator lets you see progress of the Save. A USB stick with a read/write LED can be useful to let you see the drive is not working.




When the file is saved on the USB drive, there is a message on the 1204X-E screen saying that the file has been saved. And if in 5 minutes after the message has been shown the flash drive is removed and the file mentioned in the message is not saved on the drive then I don't see how a a read/write LED  can change it.
I wonder what kind of USB drives are supported by 1204X-E (I cannot find any info in the documentation). I have 4 different USB drivers ranging from cheap 4GB USB2.0 to expensive Samsung T1 USB 3.0 250GB and the only USB flash drive that works is the old and really slow 4GB USB 2.0. In all other cases after connecting a new USB flash drive nothing really happens (i.e. there is no message saying that the drive was connected) , but after 4-7 seconds  there is a message on the screen saying - " USB flash drive removed." - at this moment the USB flash is still connected to 1204X-E but obviously not recognized.
May be there is some file system type/ drive size / power consumption limitations that we should be aware of ?

I have used Kingston data traveller 4Gb and Kingston DTSE9 8Gb and DTGE9 8Gb. All they have worked without any problems. Some may say they are slow. Ok they are but I can ask - is it any kind of problem. One PNG image is typically uder 20kb. It is transferred so fast that pressing image save ("Print") button is more slow. Then if save very huge .CSV. CSV building process is so slow that USB speed is not main bottle neck. (2Ch 14M acquistion saving to USB in  .CSV format takes lot of time and this time is not because USB speed imho.

Afaik USB flash stick need be in native Windows FAT32 format and some older time I remember I have read some information that it also need be in one partition. USB hard drives are not supported afaik.

Extra note: Never use any USB flash for FW update until you are absolutely sure this works with scope without any problem. Always compare downloaded and unzipped .ADS file with example CRC-32 and then after copied to USB check CRC-32 match.

https://www.siglentamerica.com/operating-tip/save-external-usb-sds-series-oscilloscopes/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/operating-tip/save-external-usb-sds-series-oscilloscopes/)

Advice to Siglent:
I hope Siglent give exact full specifications about USB flash. What are accepted limits in size, speed and accepted allocation unit sizes. Why it is so difficult to tell things exactly. This is not like political debate, this is a technical thing and this  can define exactly and completely. Or is this some kind of fun game where player needs guesswork.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MARCOS BR on February 27, 2018, 03:22:52 pm
"Probes PP215".
I checked through the jpg "Probe Characteristics" that probe "PP215" has "200MHz" of "Bandwidth".
Please note that it is appropriate for the "Bandwidth" 100HMHz "SDS1104X-E" model, as it "exceeds the specifications" of this model ...
The model "SDS1204X-E" is for "200MHz" of "Bandwidth", and certainly needs a "probe" that "exceeds this specification".

Question: In the case of SDS1204X-E, should Siglent not supply with a "Probe" of at least "300MHz"?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on February 27, 2018, 08:37:28 pm
Hello,

I am very curious about SPL1016 logic analyzer probe. Could someone, who already has it, publish an unbiased and detailed review of the device in order to help users like me to decide if it's worth getting it?

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 28, 2018, 01:34:30 am
Hi,
I've updated my SDS1104X-E with the new firmware but now I notice something strange on channel 4.
I can't see any signal with 50V/div, 5V/div, 1V/div, 200 mv/div (probe set to x10, with x1 the values are 5V, 500mV, 100mV, 20mV). To be more precise I can see the signal only for an instant after changing the V/div scale and then it disappears.
I never noticed this with the previous fimware so I think that is a firmware problem.

can someone check this? or can I try something to figure out what is going on?

Thanks
Now that the factory is back at work after Chinese new year hols and after checking they were aware of issues with v7.6.1.20, they've replied that they're trying to get a replacement firmware version out this later week.

I found a bug related to displaying long IC2 decoded packets, I am running the latest X.20 firmware.
Look at the first column in the table, we cannot see the row 9:
.............
If they can fit it in they'll try and address this too but their immediate focus is to fix the problem in v7.6.1.20

Thanks guys.
The guys at the factory have a fix for v7.6.1.20.

New version.
Version: v7.6.1.20R1
http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4071&tid=15 (http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4071&tid=15)

Changelog
1.Fixed a bug in 6.1.20 which maybe cause signal disappear after self-calibration for Channels?
2.Supported all of Siglent’s SDG instruments in Bode Plot
3.Add MSO/Logic functionality
4. Added automatic vertical scale (volts/div) in Bode Plot mode
5.Added USB WiFi support.
6.Optimized the WiFi GUI
7.Automatic Roll mode selection will be disabled if manually disabled once.
8.Renamed Runt-Trigger in German
9.Fixed a bug in the I2C triggering system of 7 bit Address& Data
10.Improved Auto Setup function with 1K compensation output
11.Improved waveform update when using sequence mode on long timebases
12.Optimize self-calibration for Channels
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on February 28, 2018, 07:27:47 am
Hi,
I've updated my SDS1104X-E with the new firmware but now I notice something strange on channel 4.
I can't see any signal with 50V/div, 5V/div, 1V/div, 200 mv/div (probe set to x10, with x1 the values are 5V, 500mV, 100mV, 20mV). To be more precise I can see the signal only for an instant after changing the V/div scale and then it disappears.
I never noticed this with the previous fimware so I think that is a firmware problem.

can someone check this? or can I try something to figure out what is going on?

Thanks
Now that the factory is back at work after Chinese new year hols and after checking they were aware of issues with v7.6.1.20, they've replied that they're trying to get a replacement firmware version out this later week.

I found a bug related to displaying long IC2 decoded packets, I am running the latest X.20 firmware.
Look at the first column in the table, we cannot see the row 9:
.............
If they can fit it in they'll try and address this too but their immediate focus is to fix the problem in v7.6.1.20

Thanks guys.
The guys at the factory have a fix for v7.6.1.20.

New version.
Version: v7.6.1.20R1
http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4071&tid=15 (http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4071&tid=15)

Changelog
1.Fixed a bug in 6.1.20 which maybe cause signal disappear after self-calibration for Channels?
2.Supported all of Siglent’s SDG instruments in Bode Plot
3.Add MSO/Logic functionality
4. Added automatic vertical scale (volts/div) in Bode Plot mode
5.Added USB WiFi support.
6.Optimized the WiFi GUI
7.Automatic Roll mode selection will be disabled if manually disabled once.
8.Renamed Runt-Trigger in German
9.Fixed a bug in the I2C triggering system of 7 bit Address& Data
10.Improved Auto Setup function with 1K compensation output
11.Improved waveform update when using sequence mode on long timebases
12.Optimize self-calibration for Channels

THANKS!
I'm going to it later today!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on February 28, 2018, 01:29:04 pm
That's great!  I'll also give v7.6.1.20R1 a spin tonight!  Though, from the changelog doc included with the firmware, it seems only the top two items are in .20R1 and the rest was already in .20...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 28, 2018, 02:53:55 pm
That's great!  I'll also give v7.6.1.20R1 a spin tonight!  Though, from the changelog doc included with the firmware, it seems only the top two items are in .20R1 and the rest was already in .20...

Yes.

1.Fixed a bug in 6.1.20 which maybe cause signal disappear
This was urgent fix for fatal error in 7.6.1.20
Also this fix was amazing fast if look this time when whole Siglent China have been vacation (Chinese major annual holiday "Spring festival holiday"

Whole list is there because FW7.6.1.20 is deleted and do not exist for download.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MARCOS BR on February 28, 2018, 04:15:37 pm
"Probes PP215".
I checked through the jpg "Probe Characteristics" that probe "PP215" has "200MHz" of "Bandwidth".
Please note that it is appropriate for the "Bandwidth" 100HMHz "SDS1104X-E" model, as it "exceeds the specifications" of this model ...
The model "SDS1204X-E" is for "200MHz" of "Bandwidth", and certainly needs a "probe" that "exceeds this specification".

Question: In the case of SDS1204X-E, should Siglent not supply with a "Probe" of at least "300MHz"?

The model "SDS1104X-E" may come with "STD" "4pçs PP510"; and "SDS1204X-E" and "SDS1202X-E" can come with "Probe PP215" ...
http://www.saelig.com/product/sds1204x-e.htm (http://www.saelig.com/product/sds1204x-e.htm)

But for the "200MHz Bandwidth" Oscilloscope models, it may be the Siglent "Probe" model fitting, the "Probe PP430" with "Bandwidth = 300MHz - 12pF".
However, Siglent has the "Probe" models: "PB925" (250MHz -16pF) and "SP2030A (300MHz - 12pF).

http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/DataSheet/SIGLENT%20%20Probe%20Datasheet%20V1.2.pdf (http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/DataSheet/SIGLENT%20%20Probe%20Datasheet%20V1.2.pdf)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on February 28, 2018, 04:39:35 pm
The PP510 and PP215 probes are perfectly fine for the scopes they ship with. Higher bandwidth specification does not automatically mean better performance.

The table below shows the bandwidth for -1, -3 and -6dB as well as the transition times for various probes on a 200MHz SDS1202X-E. The real important parameters are the -1dB bandwidth and the transition times. The only probe that actually performs a little bit better than the PP215 overall would be the Pico Tech TA131.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=399766;image)
Probe Comparison 3

See the comparison here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MARCOS BR on February 28, 2018, 07:58:22 pm
The PP510 and PP215 probes are perfectly fine for the scopes they ship with. Higher bandwidth specification does not automatically mean better performance.

The table below shows the bandwidth for -1, -3 and -6dB as well as the transition times for various probes on a 200MHz SDS1202X-E. The real important parameters are the -1dB bandwidth and the transition times. The only probe that actually performs a little bit better than the PP215 overall would be the Pico Tech TA131.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=399766)
Probe Comparison 3

See the comparison here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665)

Mr.  Performa01

Thank you very much for the clarification.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on February 28, 2018, 10:42:55 pm
SDS1104X-E
No more disappearing traces with v7.6.1.20R1   :D

Bode plot seems to be working fine still with LAN connection to SDG1032X.

One thing I have been noticing, and perhaps I'm using it wrong, is that using the Update button on the scope web server doesn't seem to work.  I click the button, select the ADS file, and it tries to perform the transfer, then it reports this problem "FAIL: move file fail"

 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: sbrom on March 01, 2018, 02:11:27 pm
Anyone have an SDS1x04X-E on order, with a projected delivery date?

On Feb 11,  I ordered the 1104X-E from Saelig.  The next day they notified me of a projected late-MARCH ship date. 

FYI - there's nothing on Saelig's web site indicating the scope is out of stock.  They wait until you "buy" before telling you.   :-- ....a definite opportunity for improvement in customer service.   

Thanks,
sbrom
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: wohali on March 01, 2018, 11:05:22 pm
I have an order in as of last week for the same model with Transcat. Their website says "2-3 weeks" wait on the backorder. (I also ordered an SDG2042X; that one is listed as "1-2 weeks".)

I get the sense everyone is out of stock, and likely the next shipment hasn't even been made yet. China is still finishing up holiday celebrations; the Lantern Festival is today, Friday March 2. I expect the earliest a shipment would go out would be Monday the 5th, and that's assuming the units are boxed and ready to go...big assumption.

Shame on Saelig's website...I just keep telling myself "Patience, Grasshopper." At this rate, the oldy moldy LeCroy DDA-120 I scored off of eBay for US$500 will arrive before the Siglents  :-DD
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ian.ameline on March 02, 2018, 02:48:01 am
If you buy the USB based AWG box (SDG1021) do you also need to pay seperately for a software licence to unlock it's capabilities on the scope?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 02, 2018, 03:06:14 am
If you buy the USB based AWG box (SDG1021) do you also need to pay seperately for a software licence to unlock it's capabilities on the scope?
Yes but only for its general AWG capabilities, not for Bode plot usage. List is $109 for the SDS1000X-E-FG license option.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ian.ameline on March 02, 2018, 04:40:59 am
Can it do anything other than the bode plot without that software? or is it just a brick?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 02, 2018, 04:50:50 am
Can it do anything other than the bode plot without that software? or is it just a brick?
The SW license enables permanent usage for ordinary AWG usage but you should be able to use it for a limited # of times until the trial times expire. I think it's 30 uses.......sorry no new stock until next week to check for you.


Other members with new units and no permanent FG (AWG) license can check for us by looking in the Utility/Option sub-menu. Status will be Trials # remaining or Permanent.


Edit.
You can at anytime in the future if you decide you need the FG permanent licensing, contact your local seller and buy the FG license. You'll be sent a code and a online link where you goto and enter this code, model # and SN# and the option licensing code is generated. Then enter it into the DSO in the Options/Install menu to make the license permanent.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 02, 2018, 06:36:59 am
More detailed technical information about the SAG1021 can be found here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1432665/#msg1432665 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1432665/#msg1432665)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on March 02, 2018, 10:30:01 am
no more signal disappearing! awesome!

thanks
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bear207 on March 02, 2018, 06:56:00 pm
Anyone have an SDS1x04X-E on order, with a projected delivery date?
........
FYI - there's nothing on Saelig's web site indicating the scope is out of stock.  They wait until you "buy" before telling you.   :-- ....a definite opportunity for improvement in customer service.   

Thanks,
sbrom
Ordered and received this email reply from Saelig below.
Would have been nice to know they were out of stock, yet I was also taking advantage of their EEVblog discount code as well which I appreciate.

BTW - thank you to all for this thread and such great discussion.  Some of you folks are putting in serious time with these reviews, tests and comments.  Very helpful to the community!

"Hello Gary,

Thank you for your order. At this time we are out of stock of the SDS1104-E.  We have them on order with our vendor but due to factory delays and the Chinese New Year we have been informed that they will ship to us at the end of March. Please advise us on how to proceed.

Kind Regards,

Nate Brown
Saelig Company, Inc. "
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ian.ameline on March 03, 2018, 12:05:05 am
It looks like in Canada for $150 (CDN) more I can get a SDG-2042X -- it is way more than twice the instrument -- almost 10x the sample rate, 2x the bandwidth, 2 channels, & way more features.

Charging extra for the software seems sleazy to me -- if you sell me the hardware, it should work.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 03, 2018, 02:14:11 am
It looks like in Canada for $150 (CDN) more I can get a SDG-2042X -- it is way more than twice the instrument -- almost 10x the sample rate, 2x the bandwidth, 2 channels, & way more features.

Charging extra for the software seems sleazy to me -- if you sell me the hardware, it should work.
Each to their own.

It does work and straight out of the box with SDS1004X-E scopes.....for Bode plot !
If you want the additional AWG functionality then you need buy it.....or not.
If you only need the full Bode plot functionality with SDS1004X-E scopes, SAG1021 is the cheapest option.
Note, I did not claim best !

If you need further AWG capabilities, then yes, there are better Siglent AWG solutions that can also support the Bode plot feature.

Here, Siglent have given buyers choices that can fit their needs and the budget available.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 03, 2018, 05:12:49 pm
As there have been complaints regarding USB, I just did a quick test with several USB sticks – all of them fairly old, some even right from the stone age. I have often seen the advice for various instruments from various manufacturers to use flash drives up to 4GB with FAT file system only, so I was curious how the Siglent SDS1104X-E would deal with the bigger ones. I would have liked to try even higher than 32GB, but I can’t find anything bigger/better here in my lab, so someone else would have to chime in for that.

NoName                   512MB   FAT16 USB2
Platinum                 2GB     FAT16 USB2
Transcend LF V30/        4GB     FAT32 USB2
SanDisk cruzer contour   8GB     FAT32 USB2 (with additional ~7MB CDFS partition)
SanDisk cruzer edge     16GB     FAT32 USB2
Transcend               32GB     FAT32 USB3

All these were recognized by the scope without problems and the directory could be displayed correctly.

I happen to have two of the NoName 512MB and these are regularly in use with the Siglent scopes, have always been absolutely reliable and I never felt they were slow either.

I also tested the remaining ones by storing a screenshot on each of them. To my surprise even the oddball SanDisk cruzer contour worked without problems just like the others.

For the screenshot tests I removed the sticks immediately after the “saved to file …” message of the scope had disappeared. No loss of data, no problems. There was no noticeable speed difference, but then again, what to expect when a screenshot just takes a fraction of a second anyway?

This got me curious to make a quick performance test: writing binary raw data for a 4x7Mpts record. This results in a 26.74MB binary file. Since all these sticks have seen heavy use before and were not even freshly formatted (which is unlikely to make a difference anyway), write speed could be expected to be as slow as it gets. For a fair comparison, I took three measurements for each device and only used the fastest result. After all it’s more about the performance of the scope and not the ancient sticks.

USB Stick                     time (s)    Speed (MB/s)
NoName 512MB                  3.23         8.20
Platinum 2GB                  8.35         3.20
Transcend LF V30/4GB          6.11         4.38
SanDisk cruzer contour 8GB    2.99         8.94
SanDisk cruzer edge 16GB      2.85         9.38
Transcend 32GB                2.66        10.05

And the winner is … pretty much all except for the old Transcend LF V30 and particularly the slow Platinum (in actual fact another noname), which takes the red lantern, but all others are pretty close.

It is interesting to see that age and size don’t make much of a difference and even after that test I do not see any reason to replace my old 512MB FAT16 nonames.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on March 05, 2018, 04:32:55 am
As there have been complaints regarding USB, I just did a quick test with several USB sticks – all of them fairly old, some even right from the stone age. I have often seen the advice for various instruments from various manufacturers to use flash drives up to 4GB with FAT file system only, so I was curious how the Siglent SDS1104X-E would deal with the bigger ones. I would have liked to try even higher than 32GB, but I can’t find anything bigger/better here in my lab, so someone else would have to chime in for that.

Indeed there was a complaint regarding USB. In my case only really the old SanDisk Cruzer Edge (4GB)  worked, more modern Kingston Data Travel 2.0 64 GB and SanDisk Extreme 64GB 3.0 did not work. The reason why they did not work is that they were formatted as NTFS and exFAT (tautech mentioned that  8) in one of his replies). After reformatting one of those drives and using FAT32 (I ended up with 32GB single partition although it was a 64GB drive, it seems to be Windows imposed limitation) it was recognized by SDS1204X-E.
A side note about reformatting high performance USB 3.0 flash drives: some of them are being formatted with proper partition alignment during manufacturing. After the user mindlessly reformats such a flash drive its performance can and most likely degrade.

I also tested the remaining ones by storing a screenshot on each of them. To my surprise even the oddball SanDisk cruzer contour worked without problems just like the others.
For the screenshot tests I removed the sticks immediately after the “saved to file …” message of the scope had disappeared. No loss of data, no problems. There was no noticeable speed difference, but then again, what to expect when a screenshot just takes a fraction of a second anyway?


It's nice to know that it flawlessly worked for you but I can hardly see that as a proof that certain SDS1204X-E having/running a particular version of hardware/firmware  (but to tell the truth I don't know how much that matters in this situation, nevertheless this is how the test should be performed in case  if those things do matter otherwise we will have something similar to what we had regarding PP215 probes, i.e. same labels, different parameters etc)  cannot have a problem with storing screenshots.
At  the moment I am using a simple workaround (I did not save many of them since my last post though) by saving one more screenshot even if I don't need it making sure that the previous one was stored on the external drive. If I really wanted to know the answer to this question I would use an USB  protocol analyzer to see what is going on on the bus before/after the message on the screen, but I don't care that much.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 05, 2018, 04:54:25 am
As there have been complaints regarding USB, I just did a quick test with several USB sticks – all of them fairly old, some even right from the stone age. I have often seen the advice for various instruments from various manufacturers to use flash drives up to 4GB with FAT file system only, so I was curious how the Siglent SDS1104X-E would deal with the bigger ones. I would have liked to try even higher than 32GB, but I can’t find anything bigger/better here in my lab, so someone else would have to chime in for that.

Indeed there was a complaint regarding USB. In my case only really the old SanDisk Cruzer Edge (4GB)  worked, more modern Kingston Data Travel 2.0 64 GB and SanDisk Extreme 64GB 3.0 did not work. The reason why they did not work is that they were formatted as NTFS and exFAT (tautech mentioned that  8) in one of his replies). After reformatting one of those drives and using FAT32 (I ended up with 32GB single partition although it was a 64GB drive, it seems to be Windows imposed limitation) it was recognized by SDS1204X-E.
A side note about reformatting high performance USB 3.0 flash drives: some of them are being formatted with proper partition alignment during manufacturing. After the user mindlessly reformats such a flash drive its performance can and most likely degrade.
Following developments as always, of the USB drives I use with scopes, all are USB 2.0, none are larger than 16GB and all are FAT32 formatted. I've some beaten up old 512MB ones too and none give problems.
Even when we beta tested (SDS1104X-E) there were never any problems and many screenshots were taken to send back to the factory.

17_29bis
I sure understand you concerns over saving screenshots and then they not being on the stick but with a correctly formatted and compatible drive this issue just shouldn't happen. Although I haven't beaten FW 20R1 up much I don't see and reason USB Save wouldn't work as it has in the past. Drives are just so cheap these days, IIRC a pair of 8 GB Strontium's cost me ~$10.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 05, 2018, 06:33:10 am
Ok, so I tried the USB connection from 1104->1032 and it works.  Then, for giggles, I went back and re-configured for LAN and it worked!  I then unplugged the USB cable just to make sure and it still works.  I don't know if I fat-fingered something the first time or what?  :-//

The LAN connection works now for me too :)

Initially, it did not work indeed. Then I saw the changelog for the 7.6.1.20R1 firmware and it says

1.   Supported all of Siglent’s SDG instruments in Bode Plot

So I thought the issue might be device specific and hoped the FW update would cure my problems. It did not.

I have been in contact with Siglent about the issue and it turned out that it was a specific problem with my early pre-production unit of the SDS1104X-E, which was easily cured by sending just one command to the device.

I have also asked what the changelog entry cited above actually means.

The good news is that the SDS1004X-E Bode plot now supports all Siglent SDG waveform generators, not just the X-series.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 08, 2018, 01:22:28 pm
Finally some detail for the SLA1016 LA HW option is available.
https://www.siglentamerica.com/accessory/sla1016/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/accessory/sla1016/)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=402079)

The 'business end' configuration seems quite similar to earlier LA pods for SDS2k and SDS1kX models where a ribbon cable was terminated into the 16ch probe head of which there's two detachable pods of eight channels each plus ground connections. The grabbers appear to be the same USA made type detachable from the soft silicone leads.

This time however we also have a smart controller module that connects to the DSO with a short SBus cable and the module has its own firmware that's upgradable via the DSO's LA user interface through a dedicated firmware upgrade utility.
The SLA1016 must be connected before the firmware upgrade can proceed.
SLA1016 firmware's is already available from Siglent websites.
http://www.siglent.com/ENs/prodcut-gjjrj.aspx?id=1909&tid=1&T=2 (http://www.siglent.com/ENs/prodcut-gjjrj.aspx?id=1909&tid=1&T=2)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 08, 2018, 03:03:06 pm
Finally some detail for the SLA1016 LA HW option is available.
https://www.siglentamerica.com/accessory/sla1016/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/accessory/sla1016/)

From the link above:
NOTE: The scope requires firmware version 7.1.6.20 or greater ==> should read 7.6.1.20!

I got the SLA1016 some week ago, but haven't tried it yet because the Sbus cable was missing in my package. An HDMI cable cannot replace it, so I have to wait for the original one.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on March 08, 2018, 09:20:13 pm
Hello,

tautech & Performa01, assuming that we are talking about stock  SLA1016 LA with the accessories to be used with SDS1204X-E and such.  Could you please show us some closeup  pictures of the  logic analyzer probes? To be more precise I am mostly interested in the following info:

a) a picture of the gripper hook (open) for example:

(https://sigrok.org/wimg/f/f1/Universal_chip_clip_gripper_hook2.jpg)

b) a picture of the several (8-9 would be the most optimal) probes attached to a SOIC IC (pitch 0.050 in (1.27 mm)) for example:

(https://sigrok.org/wimg/3/31/Probe_comparison_ezhook_xkm_3.jpg)

Thanks  in advance!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 08, 2018, 09:30:24 pm
Hello,

tautech & Performa01, assuming that we are talking about stock  SLA1016 LA with the accessories to be used with SDS1204X-E and such.  Could you please show us some closeup  pictures of the  logic analyzer probes?
I reported on those that come with SDS2kX models here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-sds2000x-series/msg984510/#msg984510 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-sds2000x-series/msg984510/#msg984510)

As mentioned those are fine enough to fit SOIC but not smaller. These new ones don't seem that fine from the pics but I'll know for sure on Monday when my new stock arrives.
Performa01 IIRC has grabbers for 2kX and he'll compare them for sure.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on March 08, 2018, 09:56:50 pm
I wonder, since 4ch models can sample twice as fast as 2ch versions (2Gs/s vs 1Gs/s), do they have faster zinq  processor?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 08, 2018, 10:05:42 pm
I wonder, since 4ch models can sample twice as fast as 2ch versions (2Gs/s vs 1Gs/s), do they have faster zinq  processor?
No Bob they can't.
These 1004X-E's have 2x 1Gsa/s ADC's that are assigned to 2 channels each.
So with all four on the max sampling rate is 500Msa/s per channel.
The SDS1202X-E has just a single 1Gsa/s ADC for the same sampling rate with its only 2 channels.

If you must have faster then the SDS2000X series can provide 1Gsa/s with 4 channels active from their 2x 2Gsa/s ADC architecture.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on March 08, 2018, 10:22:16 pm

I reported on those that come with SDS2kX models here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-sds2000x-series/msg984510/#msg984510 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-sds2000x-series/msg984510/#msg984510)
As mentioned those are fine enough to fit SOIC but not smaller. These new ones don't seem that fine from the pics but I'll know for sure on Monday when my new stock arrives.

Those (EZ-Hook i.e.  Agilent  style)   SDS2kX probes are beautiful ones!  I have here 4 different types of probes and these ones are my favorite (got them from DigiKey, wanted to get them in different colors to  distinguish between different LA channels since I never understood why many LA comes with the same color probes). I also have some probes looking similar to the black ones  shown on your picture, that would be (and is) my last choice. Ok, let's wait till your new stock arrives.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 08, 2018, 10:45:48 pm

I reported on those that come with SDS2kX models here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-sds2000x-series/msg984510/#msg984510 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-sds2000x-series/msg984510/#msg984510)
As mentioned those are fine enough to fit SOIC but not smaller. These new ones don't seem that fine from the pics but I'll know for sure on Monday when my new stock arrives.
Those (EZ-Hook i.e.  Agilent  style)   SDS2kX probes are beautiful ones!  I have here 4 different types of probes and these ones are my favorite (got them from DigiKey, wanted to get them in different colors to  distinguish between different LA channels since I never understood why many LA comes with the same color probes). I also have some probes looking similar to the black ones  shown on your picture, that would be (and is) my last choice. Ok, let's wait till your new stock arrives.
The ones I most prefer are old style Tek grabbers like these in this listing:
https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Tektronix-Adapter-Mini-Test-Grabber-40V/272670551628?hash=item3f7c6e6e4c:g:YsEAAOSw42dZF6bp (https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Tektronix-Adapter-Mini-Test-Grabber-40V/272670551628?hash=item3f7c6e6e4c:g:YsEAAOSw42dZF6bp)

They are just so easy to use.
I've only got a few for ordinary scope probe use for the times when an ordinary probe grabber isn't small enough.
You just need make up some short flying leads with a tinned or looped end and on the other a 0.025" Female crimp to fit onto the 0.025 grabber pin.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: lukier on March 08, 2018, 10:59:16 pm
Finally some detail for the SLA1016 LA HW option is available.
https://www.siglentamerica.com/accessory/sla1016/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/accessory/sla1016/)

Thanks for the heads up. I hope Dave/forum members will do a teardown (if it has DACs and comparators or just simple RC matching and a logic buffer) and a review, because it is a quite expensive option.

From Batronix:
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html)

SDS1000X-E-16LA - 113.05 EUR (inc VAT)
Siglent SLA1016 Logic Probes - 342.72 EUR (inc VAT) - I guess Batronix used wrong photo?
Total: 455.77 EUR - almost as much as the scope itself!

What is the logic behind this dual pricing? The hardware is useless without the software option and vice versa. The same for the SAG1021 + SDS1000X-E-FG.
I'm all for making these things optional, but why not include the software option price in the hardware itself?

The only reason I can think of is when one has multiple scopes (classroom?) and only few HW attachments that could be moved between scopes. But then, if the software was already there (no option, just detection of the HW attached to enable the feature) one could move the attachments as well, so this means this dual pricing is to extort some extra money from people running classroom type scenario (as they, for example, need to buy only few AWG dongles but they have to install the SW option on all the scopes).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on March 08, 2018, 11:21:17 pm
The ones I most prefer are old style Tek grabbers like these in this listing:
https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Tektronix-Adapter-Mini-Test-Grabber-40V/272670551628?hash=item3f7c6e6e4c:g:YsEAAOSw42dZF6bp (https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Tektronix-Adapter-Mini-Test-Grabber-40V/272670551628?hash=item3f7c6e6e4c:g:YsEAAOSw42dZF6bp)
They are just so easy to use.

To each his own  8)

May be the original Tektronix grabbers are really so much better, I don't know since I have a replica but this is how it works for me:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=402210;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=402212;image)



Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 08, 2018, 11:27:04 pm
@lukier

These options give a customer purchase options to fit their budget and just as you've identified for classroom use, also repair labs too.
Free trial usages can determine if one buys only the HW and then later a permanent SW license.
In my position I can have the LA HW in stock but not the SW option that BTW needs be generated for the SN# of each scope.

The AWG plus SW is a little different in that there's 3 possibilities of use case.
Only SAG1021 for Bode plot usage. (no SW required)
Full AWG requirements (HW and SW needed)
Bode plot possible with any Siglent standalone AWG

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 09, 2018, 12:03:30 am
The ones I most prefer are old style Tek grabbers like these in this listing:
https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Tektronix-Adapter-Mini-Test-Grabber-40V/272670551628?hash=item3f7c6e6e4c:g:YsEAAOSw42dZF6bp (https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Tektronix-Adapter-Mini-Test-Grabber-40V/272670551628?hash=item3f7c6e6e4c:g:YsEAAOSw42dZF6bp)
They are just so easy to use.

To each his own  8)

May be the original Tektronix grabbers are really so much better, I don't know since I have a replica but this is how it works for me:
Here's a better pic of just one:
https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Tektronix-SMT-KlipChip-Adapter-Test-Clip-Mini-Grabber-206-0364-01-with-Accessory/222294004524?hash=item33c1c1532c:g:s1cAAOSwHsRYEFBB (https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Tektronix-SMT-KlipChip-Adapter-Test-Clip-Mini-Grabber-206-0364-01-with-Accessory/222294004524?hash=item33c1c1532c:g:s1cAAOSwHsRYEFBB)

What do yours measure on the finest/thinest part of the shank ?
The Teks are 1.25mm.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on March 11, 2018, 01:02:35 am
What do yours measure on the finest/thinest part of the shank ?
The Teks are 1.25mm.

My replica of Tektronix  is roughly 1.6 mm which is also not bad but I mostly use EZ-Hooks:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=402763;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 11, 2018, 01:07:03 am
A brief introduction to the SLA/SPL1016 hardware and a comparison of the supplied noname hooks with the E-Z Hooks that come with the SPL2016 for SDS2000(X) can be found here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1449168/#msg1449168 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1449168/#msg1449168)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 13, 2018, 07:54:37 am
Some MSO screenshots.
SDS1104X-E with SLA1016 MSO option
Signal source Siglent STB-3.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=403346)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=403348)

Data from D0 and D1.
D7 set as control channel (red).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on March 14, 2018, 07:42:13 pm
What is the sample rate of SLA1016?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 14, 2018, 10:34:59 pm
What is the sample rate of SLA1016?
Going by the datasheet: Digital Channels: Max. Sampling Rate 1 GSa/s

How that's managed is a good question as there' 2x 1Gsa/s ADC's on board Siglent may have assigned 8 LA channels to each ADC. That would seem logical considering the SDS1004X-E architecture.

On the other hand sampling might be handled in the SLA1016 LA pod.
Teardown Performa01 ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on March 15, 2018, 04:31:20 am
What is the sample rate of SLA1016?
Going by the datasheet: Digital Channels: Max. Sampling Rate 1 GSa/s

How that's managed is a good question as there' 2x 1Gsa/s ADC's on board Siglent may have assigned 8 LA channels to each ADC. That would seem logical considering the SDS1004X-E architecture.

On the other hand sampling might be handled in the SLA1016 LA pod.
Teardown Performa01 ?

2 main ADC's do not LA sampling. They handle analog channels only.

1 LA channel level information is just one bit. 0 or 1. Comparator is enough for this.  There are 16 comparators in SPL1016 head.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on March 15, 2018, 03:08:20 pm
This video from Siglent themselves (published March 2nd) shows unresponsive controls when logic analyzer is running.  @2:58, notice how much knob has to be turned to scroll through the menu options and delay between input and actual move.  Also, that channel selection menu must be at least 20 items long (4 analog+16 digital) - that means lots and lots of turning frustration.

One of the advantages of new Siglent as compared to Rigol is speed.  This video makes me wonder what other GUI places are as unresponsive or badly optimized.

https://youtu.be/2q-aRCLELkk?t=2m58s (https://youtu.be/2q-aRCLELkk?t=2m58s)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q-aRCLELkk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q-aRCLELkk)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 15, 2018, 07:30:32 pm
Bob, the momentary pauses in the display updates are due to the settings being changed with the multifunction control. Each little step of info from the encoder initiates a momentary pause as the DSO changes its internal configuration.
Normal for these models.

What Jason didn't explain about the MSO licensing and in fact for all the available options is that from new trial licensing is active for a 30 use/s duration before permanent licensing need be purchased for unlimited use.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on March 17, 2018, 06:05:55 am
Hello,

I think I found a bug in the newest firmware (1204X-E). When the trigger is set to AC coupling, the change of the trigger level does not show on the screen the horizontal line reflecting the actual trigger level (but it works fine for 3 other types such as  DC etc. Can someone verify that and confirm my observation?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 17, 2018, 06:34:53 am
Hello,

I think I found a bug in the newest firmware (1204X-E). When the trigger is set to AC coupling, the change of the trigger level does not show on the screen the horizontal line reflecting the actual trigger level (but it works fine for 3 other types such as  DC etc. Can someone verify that and confirm my observation?

Thanks.
Your observation is accurate but it is NOT a bug. Instead Siglent chose not to display the trigger level when using AC input coupling as it's always @ 50% when AC coupled.
IIRC Performa01 mentions this in his in depth review.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on March 17, 2018, 06:48:31 am
Your observation is accurate but it is NOT a bug. Instead Siglent chose not to display the trigger level when using AC input coupling as it's always @ 50% when AC coupled.

I don't know what Siglent has chosen, I don't know if the result may depend on the firmware version etc but I still would appreciate if someone verified that for me.
The problem with your statement is that when one chooses AC coupling and changes the trigger level he can clearly see how the trig. level is changing (right top corner of the screen shows the current trig. level), plus if the trig. level is incorrect then the displayed waveform is not  synchronized.  Do I misunderstand something?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 17, 2018, 07:05:52 am
Yes, the missing AC trigger level indicator is mentioned in the review documents (chapter "AC Trigger Coupling", page 71) and in the thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1375999/#msg1375999 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1375999/#msg1375999)
and
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1384751/#msg1384751 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1384751/#msg1384751)

Btw the review text is currently misleading as it states:

The trigger level is set to zero which is actually always equivalent to the mean level of a symmetrical input signal.

We can still adjust the trigger level to any arbitrary value, so the above statement is only true for automatic level setting and it should read:

When using Auto Set by pushing the trigger level control, the trigger level is set to zero which is equivalent to the mean level of a symmetrical input signal.

In short: Siglent currently don't give us an AC (and LF Reject, which is basically just AC with a much higher corner frequency) trigger level indicator despite I've mentioned it several times since it has disappeared a long time ago.

Apart from that I have an open change request for adjusting the auto set trigger level to the center of the waveform (Vmax + Vmin) / 2 - Vmean instead of setting it to zero. This way the AC auto trigger would also work for narrow pulses.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on March 19, 2018, 11:29:41 am


Apart from that I have an open change request for adjusting the auto set trigger level to the center of the waveform (Vmax + Vmin) / 2 - Vmean instead of setting it to zero. This way the AC auto trigger would also work for narrow pulses.

This is good. But also then we need ask: How long time auto trigger is waiting this narrow pulse or what ever before it do autotrig. When it goes to autotrig then there exist this signal, example pulse, at this first time this pulse can be also visible in this capture waht is trigged auto. Then do not come this pulse long time and it generate trig by auto. Then this pulse exisat and again it is where it is  visible or unvisible. Say example we are 1ms/div and there exists some times 100ns pulses, some times pulse periord is 5 second and some times 20ms.  How to arrence auto trig timing (example waiting trig time after previous signal trigged capture)

If user push autoset trig level, how long it wait for solve right level?  Say example just case where randomly/perhaps slowly exist some narrow pulses. I have heard that peoples are ranting if autoset (what ever autoset) take too long time.

Compromises are nice and things what scope adjust himself are also nice but...

Perhaps I'm bit strage but I want that most things are under user control. I have never difficulties with trigger level setting my self. It is extremely rare case - more like accidental - if I push some "auto" set because it never know what I my self really want... User is master and scope is slave and do just what I command. If scope start do things over me it may find himself under table.
But, we do not have scope where is one big settings menu where I can set all or lot of parameters just as I want. (just example autotrig timing is one example)

I want scope what I can set (define), starting from trace colors (free selection for every color on the screen. Set positions for overlay informations as mesurements and marker information, change markers colors, change Sinc parameters, Change measurements parameters (example rise time tresholds) and how it dfetects top and bottom, force capture length overlap amount and force memory length, freehand draw mask test and even small mask free positioning on the screen area.. test mask X or Y scaling both no or yes.  Trigger hysteresis setting.  Just as fully user configurable scope.  And then if user need due to example low experience or other reasons... these normal autoset and set for factory defined compromice/default.

Example very old one (real)Hewlett-Packard digital scope have lot of user settings configurations. (and if adjusted then next user perhaps more than confused ;) ) But when user was familiar with these settings - it was pleasure to use.

Also there was one R&S SA (old and one important parameter, weight around 50kg?)
It was nice to use because I can set (and full free color space, not as select from some factory made stupid "skins") traces, graticule and some other things color harmony with other equipments and best for my eyes and taste.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 19, 2018, 12:43:09 pm
@ rf-loop

I agree that the experts want everything configurable to make it best fit the current application. On the other hand, this will most likely confuse less experienced users and newbies might be unable to cope. Of course we could have some big “Default” button, but the mere existence of such a bunch of options would scare away quite a few. So it’s probably a good idea not going too far on an entry level scope – but we might convince Siglent to implement some of your configuration proposals for a higher level scope, like the SDS5kX.

Regarding the trigger level and its Auto Set feature, I do not see any problem. It just should work the same in DC and AC trigger coupling mode. Auto set does not wait how the signal might develop eventually, it just uses what has recently been captured and is already in the sample buffer. No one can expect the auto trigger level set function to foresee the future, so if there is currently just a straight line then that’s what the trigger level will be set to – just as it is now with DC-coupling.

I also don’t see the problem that we would not be the master of the scene (and scope) anymore. If there is a signal that is not properly (or not at all) triggered just because the trigger level is off, then even when I know what it should be set to it’s still quicker to just push the trigger level button to have it centered on the peak-peak amplitude of the waveform– which might not even be visible initially, because it just exists in the sample buffer but is not displayed because the trigger has never fired.

After that, I have a good basis to further tweak the trigger level if required.

I have never felt the need to closely inspect the Auto trigger mode (not to confuse with Auto set for the trigger level!), as I always had the feeling the timeout (= auto trigger rate) is just about right with regard to the current timebase. But then again, I prefer normal trigger mode in most situations, because then I can be absolutely sure that every waveform I see on the screen comes from a true trigger event, no matter what weird repetition rate it might have. This also means that a singular event stays on the screen forever in normal mode, whereas it would get cleared after a short time in auto mode.

Btw, I’m not telling these truisms because I think you’re not aware of it, but it might include some hints for less experienced users who happen to read this.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on March 19, 2018, 01:21:39 pm
But then again, I prefer normal trigger mode in most situations, because then I can be absolutely sure that every waveform I see on the screen comes from a true trigger event, no matter what weird repetition rate it might have. This also means that a singular event stays on the screen forever in normal mode, whereas it would get cleared after a short time in auto mode.

Same here. But as we both know, this can not set for factory default mode. ;)

But about auto trig timing. When this "Auto" mode is selected I have some times meet situation (yes - even when I use lot of normal mode) when I want that it wait bit longer after last signal trig event before it start generate auto trigs. But never meet situation (With this scope model) where I want more fast autorig after last signal trig.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on March 20, 2018, 05:47:44 pm
After finally spending some time using this scope, I'd like to point out some minor bugs/annoyances I've found. Maybe someone can forward this suggestions to Siglent  :-+

1. In the SPI decoder after disabling the MISO or MOSI signal decoding, the label and the signal trace are still visible near the active one (but obviously without events)
2. It is not possible to move the decoding trace, it's fixed at the bottom of the screen
3. When using the decoders and zooming out too much, the decoded bytes are substituted with red markings because there is not enough space to display the values. Maybe using a vertical layout for the bytes in hex format (like R&S does) will give us another couple of zoom levels with readable decoding
4. In the measure menu there are non options to count impulses/events (I miss my 'Pluses' counter  :-DD )
5. It will be great to have the option to move the cursors data mini window in another place
6. The display is too recessed into the case and having the scope placed on the bench and being tall I've always to bow to read the first row with the sampling data and the trigger frequency. But nothing that a couple of printed rises can't fix

I've to say that overall I'm really impressed by the quality and snappiness of this machine for the price.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 21, 2018, 07:18:11 am
After finally spending some time using this scope, I'd like to point out some minor bugs/annoyances I've found. Maybe someone can forward this suggestions to Siglent  :-+

1. In the SPI decoder after disabling the MISO or MOSI signal decoding, the label and the signal trace are still visible near the active one (but obviously without events)
2. It is not possible to move the decoding trace, it's fixed at the bottom of the screen
3. When using the decoders and zooming out too much, the decoded bytes are substituted with red markings because there is not enough space to display the values. Maybe using a vertical layout for the bytes in hex format (like R&S does) will give us another couple of zoom levels with readable decoding
4. In the measure menu there are non options to count impulses/events (I miss my 'Pluses' counter  :-DD )
5. It will be great to have the option to move the cursors data mini window in another place
6. The display is too recessed into the case and having the scope placed on the bench and being tall I've always to bow to read the first row with the sampling data and the trigger frequency. But nothing that a couple of printed rises can't fix

I've to say that overall I'm really impressed by the quality and snappiness of this machine for the price.
Firmware version please ?

1. Seen this before in another unit.....and only one ! Been reported and not seen in SDS1004X-E models.
2. Only down to the vacant menu bar after selecting 'Menu' ON/OFF. (by Power button)
3. Here's a screenshot of typical decode usage and when activating Zoom and List more data is more easily accessible. (Menu OFF)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=405591)

4. This can be done using Search function by setting the parameters required then the Event #'s are displayed on the bottom right of the display. #'s displayed are related to timebase settings of course.
Example from a previous post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=377830)
Check the spelling !  ;)

5. Of course you can use the H position to move waveform detail away from cursor box or adjust the display transparency.
6. Are you using the front tilting feet ? As the rear feet are rubberized, maybe some additional packing under the front feet to tilt it back a little more.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on March 21, 2018, 09:56:27 am
Thanks for your reply.

Quote
Firmware version please ?
Updated to the latest: 7.6.1.20R1

1. Attached screenshot
2. Thanks for the tip, better than nothing  :)
3. I was thinking about something like this: https://youtu.be/UTsbYqhZiSg?t=13m48s (https://youtu.be/UTsbYqhZiSg?t=13m48s)
4. I know, but is a little bit cumbersome to have it count events in realtime due to a bug/limitation I just discoverd:
    a. push Search, setup search parameters
    b. Push navigate, BUG: cant' select Search Event in the Type menu when in Run mode
    c. Push Run/Stop to stop acquisition
    d. Now you can select Search Event in the Type menu
    e. Push Run/Stop to restart acquisition
    f. Only now events count is shown in the Event Num button in Run mode
5. Agreed
6. Yes, I'm using the front tilting foots but they are not high enough for me :)  But this is really a minor problem, I shouldn't have mentioned it and that can be easily fixed using a couple of laptop rubber rises or by printing them myself (which I'll do as soon as I've time)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on March 21, 2018, 10:39:14 am
Bit more than just Rigol "Pluses"

Of course it also need user learn how to use it because and of course first it may feel "why this and why that"

This is extremely simple example.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on March 21, 2018, 11:33:36 am
Of course it also need user learn how to use it because and of course first it may feel "why this and why that"

Not my fault this time :) and thanks to your screenshot showing the Event Num label which I've never seen I understood the problem:
when the decoding option is on, the Event Num label is hidden behind the decoded traces (see screen1)!
That's why I missed it in the first time and went with that complicate procedure  :-DD
When hiding the menu bottom bar (as suggested by Tautech) the Event Num label is visible again (see screen2)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 21, 2018, 11:53:50 am
Gabri74
Mosi, Miso, is this in Decode1 or 2 mode ?

General decode comments.
Using Zoom in my previously attached screenshot has 60 packets of decoded data (unzoomed) and a wealth of further info in the list.
Selecting Scroll in the Decode menus sets the Multifunction knob to the middle message in the stream where you can access all the info for each packet.

Event Num label and Decode = bug. Thanks.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 21, 2018, 11:55:43 am
After finally spending some time using this scope, I'd like to point out some minor bugs/annoyances I've found. Maybe someone can forward this suggestions to Siglent  :-+

Of course I will point Siglent R&D to your posting. You’ve already got some replies from experienced users and I want to add my comments to that:


Quote
1.   In the SPI decoder after disabling the MISO or MOSI signal decoding, the label and the signal trace are still visible near the active one (but obviously without events)

Yes. For other decoders, like UART, it is not even possible to disable one direction at all. I have mentioned that a long time ago, but nothing has changed and I did not pick that topic up again because I felt this was more a question of personal preference and there were so many much more important things to be sorted.


Quote
2.   It is not possible to move the decoding trace, it's fixed at the bottom of the screen

I see your point, but the UI is generally not based on freely movable windows as in modern mid-range DSOs. So the layout is fixed and nothing can be re-positioned. It would require a major re-design and I’m not sure if Siglent is willing to do that. It means so much more than just adding the functionality. You need a user interface for customizing the user interface, including additional menu items, help texts and error messages, which need to be in a bunch of different languages. And then there’s always the concern that long time users already familiar with the current UI might be confused if something behaves very differently all of a sudden, just because they pushed the wrong button at the wrong time by accident.
Maybe an entry level scope is not the best product to start experimenting with a highly flexible new UI concept…


Quote
3.   When using the decoders and zooming out too much, the decoded bytes are substituted with red markings because there is not enough space to display the values. Maybe using a vertical layout for the bytes in hex format (like R&S does) will give us another couple of zoom levels with readable decoding

Well, this goes hand in hand with some of your other requests. If the decoded values have a vertical orientation, the decoder lines use more vertical space too, which would only be a good idea if we also get the movable UI display elements as discussed before.


Quote
4.   In the measure menu there are non options to count impulses/events (I miss my 'Pluses' counter   )

Yes, even though the Event Search can be pretty powerful, I would most definitely like to have an automatic measurement function at least for counting edges.


Quote
5.   It will be great to have the option to move the cursors data mini window in another place

See #2.


Quote
6.   The display is too recessed into the case and having the scope placed on the bench and being tall I've always to bow to read the first row with the sampling data and the trigger frequency. But nothing that a couple of printed rises can't fix

Yes, I know that problem. It is similar if you place the scope somewhere above your head on a shelf, then you can’t see the bottom of the screen. But that’s manageable one way or the other … ;)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on March 21, 2018, 12:05:50 pm
Gabri74
Mosi, Miso, is this in Decode1 or 2 mode ?

Decode 1. Tested Decode 2 and is the same.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 21, 2018, 12:14:44 pm
Gabri74
Mosi, Miso, is this in Decode1 or 2 mode ?

Decode 1. Tested Decode 2 and is the same.
I think it's this way by design and BTW my first reply was about something different.
We'll look at it some more.......
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on March 21, 2018, 12:20:42 pm
Of course I will point Siglent R&D to your posting. You’ve already got some replies from experienced users and I want to add my comments to that:

Thanks a lot

Quote
I see your point, but the UI is generally not based on freely movable windows as in modern mid-range DSOs. So the layout is fixed and nothing can be re-positioned. It would require a major re-design and I’m not sure if Siglent is willing to do that. It means so much more than just adding the functionality. You need a user interface for customizing the user interface, including additional menu items, help texts and error messages, which need to be in a bunch of different languages. And then there’s always the concern that long time users already familiar with the current UI might be confused if something behaves very differently all of a sudden, just because they pushed the wrong button at the wrong time by accident.
Maybe an entry level scope is not the best product to start experimenting with a highly flexible new UI concept…

I agree on everything but I can't help thinking that having the possibility to move the decoded traces independently (like it's possible with math channels) and place them near the corresponding waveform could improve the readability. But of course this is a matter of personal preference and is really a minor problem. Overall I really like these decoders and I find the options and configurability do be very good (but I never owned an expensive scope... so my experience is limited)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 21, 2018, 12:25:18 pm
Of course I will point Siglent R&D to your posting. You’ve already got some replies from experienced users and I want to add my comments to that:

Thanks a lot

Quote
I see your point, but the UI is generally not based on freely movable windows as in modern mid-range DSOs. So the layout is fixed and nothing can be re-positioned. It would require a major re-design and I’m not sure if Siglent is willing to do that. It means so much more than just adding the functionality. You need a user interface for customizing the user interface, including additional menu items, help texts and error messages, which need to be in a bunch of different languages. And then there’s always the concern that long time users already familiar with the current UI might be confused if something behaves very differently all of a sudden, just because they pushed the wrong button at the wrong time by accident.
Maybe an entry level scope is not the best product to start experimenting with a highly flexible new UI concept…

I agree on everything but I can't help thinking that having the possibility to move the decoded traces independently (like it's possible with math channels) and place them near the corresponding waveform could improve the readability. But of course this is a matter of personal preference and is really a minor problem. Overall I really like these decoders and I find the options and configurability do be very good (but I never owned an expensive scope... so my experience is limited)
Here's a thought;
Have the Decode line name match the channel trace color it's assigned to.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 21, 2018, 02:28:15 pm
Well, even though the screen layout is basically fixed, maybe the option to just reposition the decoder lines vertically might be doable.

Having the label in the color of the associated data channel (even as an additional improvement together with the movable decoder line) sounds good at first, but what if we use the serial decoders together with the digital channels? Well, then they could revert to the default (blue) appearance.

I have notified the responsible persons at Siglent of this discussion and might report back if I get the commitment for any improvements.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on March 21, 2018, 03:22:30 pm
Of course it also need user learn how to use it because and of course first it may feel "why this and why that"

Not my fault this time :) and thanks to your screenshot showing the Event Num label which I've never seen I understood the problem:
when the decoding option is on, the Event Num label is hidden behind the decoded traces (see screen1)!
That's why I missed it in the first time and went with that complicate procedure  :-DD
When hiding the menu bottom bar (as suggested by Tautech) the Event Num label is visible again (see screen2)

oups...

Now I understand, never seen this due to fact I do not have MSO option here for this model.

Perhaps there is this and that details what need some milling, grinding and polishing in UI and how it display some details.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 21, 2018, 04:53:13 pm
oups...

Now I understand, never seen this due to fact I do not have MSO option here for this model.

No, no, no - this has nothing to do with MSO. It is just serial decoding on analog channels ... ;)

... but I haven't seen it either, as I've never used serial decoders together with Event search.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on March 21, 2018, 06:30:06 pm
oups...

Now I understand, never seen this due to fact I do not have MSO option here for this model.

No, no, no - this has nothing to do with MSO. It is just serial decoding on analog channels ... ;)

... but I haven't seen it either, as I've never used serial decoders together with Event search.

Good correction. Thank you.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 22, 2018, 10:15:00 am
I’ve asked about the most obvious/desirable improvements that resulted from our discussion here. After a brief internal evaluation, Siglent confirmed to support enable/disable for one direction on duplex decoders and remove the disabled decoder line from the screen.

Regarding the other requests, just as I’ve suspected, it’s probably not that simple to even partially change the UI concept that’s currently based on fixed display areas, so this will not be changed.

Siglent mentioned the Event Search function as the current workaround for the missing edge/pulse count. We might still get the automatic measurement though – but not in the near future, as there are some other more urgent tasks pending, like ironing out the remaining flaws in the serial decoders, improving the Bode plot feature and fixing some bugs that I've reported. So yes, I’m to blame (too), for keeping R&D folks at Siglent busy all the time – yet that’s for the benefit of all users serious about T&M out there ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 22, 2018, 10:26:45 am
Good result....for now.
As they're polishing the upcoming SDS5kX series there's a opportunity to incorporate some of these ideas into this new platform.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on March 22, 2018, 02:26:47 pm
I’ve asked about the most obvious/desirable improvements that resulted from our discussion here. After a brief internal evaluation, Siglent confirmed to support enable/disable for one direction on duplex decoders and remove the disabled decoder line from the screen.

Regarding the other requests, just as I’ve suspected, it’s probably not that simple to even partially change the UI concept that’s currently based on fixed display areas, so this will not be changed.

Siglent mentioned the Event Search function as the current workaround for the missing edge/pulse count. We might still get the automatic measurement though – but not in the near future, as there are some other more urgent tasks pending, like ironing out the remaining flaws in the serial decoders, improving the Bode plot feature and fixing some bugs that I've reported. So yes, I’m to blame (too), for keeping R&D folks at Siglent busy all the time – yet that’s for the benefit of all users serious about T&M out there ;)

Btw, have you seen what all happen if Event Search find over 700 events (rise events and look white bar (top of display). It looks like it is limited to 700 events beginning from start of acquisition memory. (not big issue itself but, it do not give any limit warning to user. Of course white bar is reduced and user see there is events only in part of acq memory. Least it need give some warning to user that events are not anymore counted from whole memory length - even if it is not very clever to use like this but.

Just set 200us/div. 1MHz pulse freq and example 100ns wide pulses. Set for find pulses under 200ns. (you see events = 700  and these events are just around first 1/4 of acq memory. Of course user fast learn that if it show 700 then check carefully if it is true or not. If 700 is limit with some real reason then need somehow warn user if overflow! If user do not well know how all work - if not educated for use this scope - there is many things what may also feel bug or other way confusing.  One example. If user stop and go to history and zoom in. He can see pulse(s) what match his settings but surprise it have not white even mark. Then he try adjust settings and still no, why it do not regognize this event. Oh.... then he hit this message: Event Num:  700/700.  All event marks are in beginning of memory and not middle where he is zooming. No event marks because all 700 are used beginning of acquisiton memory and rest of matced events are not marked..

But with this small thing, overall it is quite nice feature after first "know your equipment" learning process (I mean this whole Search and Navigate system.)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 22, 2018, 04:23:41 pm
I have to admit that I've only checked the Search function briefly, found it basically working and then somehow forgot about it because I've just been busy with other topics. Only yesterday, the discussion here reminded me that I haven't done a review of the Search function yet ...

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: wohali on April 05, 2018, 10:58:38 pm
Has anyone received a new 1104/1204X-E since Lunar New Year? I still have no shipping update from my reseller, and it's been over a month since the Lantern Festival, which marks the traditional end of New Year festivities in China.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bear207 on April 05, 2018, 11:34:28 pm
Has anyone received a new 1104/1204X-E since Lunar New Year? I still have no shipping update from my reseller, and it's been over a month since the Lantern Festival, which marks the traditional end of New Year festivities in China.
Received my 1104 last Friday

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on April 05, 2018, 11:35:39 pm
I'm told it'll be 2-3 weeks before next batch arrives.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on April 06, 2018, 12:17:45 am
Has anyone received a new 1104/1204X-E since Lunar New Year? I still have no shipping update from my reseller, and it's been over a month since the Lantern Festival, which marks the traditional end of New Year festivities in China.
I got stock just after the Lantern festival but had to wait some weeks for production lead times.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on April 06, 2018, 04:13:02 am
Has anyone received a new 1104/1204X-E since Lunar New Year? I still have no shipping update from my reseller, and it's been over a month since the Lantern Festival, which marks the traditional end of New Year festivities in China.

Last arrived two days ago.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: W9GFO on April 10, 2018, 08:30:36 pm
Has anyone received a new 1104/1204X-E since Lunar New Year? I still have no shipping update from my reseller, and it's been over a month since the Lantern Festival, which marks the traditional end of New Year festivities in China.

I ordered just over two weeks ago from Saelig, at that time they said that it was expected to arrive in one to two weeks. Found out today that they aren't expecting any units in until early May.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on April 11, 2018, 06:45:02 pm
Has anyone received a new 1104/1204X-E since Lunar New Year? I still have no shipping update from my reseller, and it's been over a month since the Lantern Festival, which marks the traditional end of New Year festivities in China.
I received from Saelig some days ago. Ordered on February 27.

Does this oscilloscope have any interesting hacks?

Is the root password known? I can connect using telnet, but don't know the root password.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: djadeski on April 11, 2018, 10:30:57 pm
I just received the 1204x-e I ordered from Transcat on March 5th. 

Initially I was told 9 week lead time which would have been late April or early May.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on April 13, 2018, 10:57:12 am
I've moved my reply here in order to not disturb that other thread. Here are the postings I'm referring to:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/using-a-ucurrent-with-siglent-sds1204x-e-or-sds1000x-e-series-(feature-request)/msg1474694/#msg1474694 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/using-a-ucurrent-with-siglent-sds1204x-e-or-sds1000x-e-series-(feature-request)/msg1474694/#msg1474694)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/using-a-ucurrent-with-siglent-sds1204x-e-or-sds1000x-e-series-(feature-request)/msg1475772/#msg1475772 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/using-a-ucurrent-with-siglent-sds1204x-e-or-sds1000x-e-series-(feature-request)/msg1475772/#msg1475772)

I hope Siglent will not just truncate the displayed data (that would be the simplest, 1 second fix to display only one line text ) but instead they will  choose to properly display relatively long decoded packets.

The solution for this is not as straight forward as it might appear. All other decoders display just one data word per line in the list view, hence the message length is only limited by the maximum number of list entries specific for each decoder. The list scroll mechanism is based on the message rather than line number and there is a fixed one by one relationship between message and line. The list window can be configured to have 1-7 lines and chances are that a long multiline message does not fit the displayed list area. Of course all this could be solved, but would require some substantial redesign – just for IIC, as no other current decoder requires that.

The statements above are my personal speculation, but I think I cannot be far off. This is also backed by the fact that Siglent takes a slightly different route:

It has been confirmed that we’ll get a proper solution providing a separate text box (for the currently selected message in the list view I assume). This box will indeed be multi-line and show the complete message.


As a side note : it would be really cool if they could fix the horizontal scrolling of the decoded data as well (sorry if I am asking too much for a 1000 Canadian dollars oscilloscope).

Rest assured that the price shall not be an excuse for any serious flaws.

I take it you're referring to the decoding line at the bottom of the trace view.

As a basis for the discussion, just let’s recall the working principle, even when it’s obvious: since this scope always displays the complete record with all its sample data, you choose the actual record length by selecting an appropriate timebase. In your example you have set 5ms/div, which means a record length of 5ms x 14 = 70ms total (using 1.4Mpts @ 20MSa/s).

Normally, the decoding line would appear compressed and not readable with these settings. In your case, it is perfectly readable and shows the first message truncated by the start of the 2nd one, which in turn contains nonsense. I have never seen a behavior like this before (with short messages) so it certainly has to do with some data buffer overflow and management data being overwritten because of the current bug.

I happen to have a screenshot with the same timebase, but only short messages:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=411818;image)
SDS1104X-E_Serial_I2C_Setup

Bottom line decoding is compressed and not readable.

Normally, you’d zoom in until the decoding line becomes readable – either by using the Zoom function during Run or setting a faster timebase in Stop mode after the acquisition is completed. Then you should be able to scroll horizontally by changing the X-position, thus shifting the zoom window and being able to view all parts of the entire message. Here’s an example, showing the last two messages of a long capture with a total of 652 packets:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=411820;image)
SDS1104X-E_Serial_I2C_Stop100us_last

So it works as expected with short messages (up to 17 data bytes).

For long messages, the initial decoding line looks weird already and the procedure described above certainly won’t work right now because of the bug that essentially destroys the decoding. So this should certainly be fixed with the coming release as well.

Just let’s wait and see. If something still isn’t fixed or the fix is not satisfactory, we can always discuss it here in the forum as the basis for a solution in a future update.

BTW, the reason why you see an extra 80h byte without acknowledgement at the end of all my messages is because the current IIC decoder expects a high idle level on the SCL line. Even though this is a valid assumption for a properly designed IIC bus system, the decoder should still be robust enough to handle the slightly different situation in my test scenario and this is just another example for an improvement that we’re most likely going to see in the coming firmware release.

In fact I have asked for a status regarding the serial decoders in general and it has been confirmed that the majority of my change requests has been finished by now and will make it into the coming release as well.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on April 14, 2018, 07:41:26 am
I have a question about 500?V range.

1. When the coupling is set to GND, there is some negative DC offset on most channels.

2. When the coupling is AC or DC, there is also an offset, but it usually changes to positive.

Why does it happen and is there any way to correct it?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on April 14, 2018, 04:52:04 pm
I have a question about 500?V range.

1. When the coupling is set to GND, there is some negative DC offset on most channels.

2. When the coupling is AC or DC, there is also an offset, but it usually changes to positive.

Why does it happen and is there any way to correct it?

This is normal and not bad at all. No way - and even more importantly, no need to fix anything here. I guess you’d have a hard time finding another DSO performing better than this, even if you're willing to spend a lot more money. Finding a scope that provides true full resolution, full bandwidth 500uV/div sensitivity (not the fake software zoom) alone would be quite a challenge already.

The specification in the datasheet is:

±(1%* Offset+1.5%*8*div+500 uV): <=1 mv/div

For zero offset and 500uV/div vertical gain, as for channel 1 in your example, the first term is zero and we can calculate the rest:

±(1.5% * 8 * 500uV + 500uV) = ±(1.5% * 4mV + 500uV) = ±(60uV + 500uV) = ±560uV;

So the specified offset error is ±560uV and your unit is well within specification. If it were not, a self-calibration would usually cure it.

Only few high precision OpAmps have an offset error significantly lower than that, whereas the majority of general purpose OpAmps can be considerably worse. In actual fact we’re not talking about a precision OpAmp here, but a wideband input buffer with >200MHz bandwidth.

The reason why there is a difference between DC, AC and GND input coupling is the fact that this is quite different to a traditional analog entry level scope. I’m not going to go into detail for AC/DC coupling, suffice it to say it is not just a capacitor right at the scope input. And ground coupling is done much further down the signal path and this is also why almost all the noise vanishes with ground coupling, which would not be the case on an analog scope. Switching from input to ground at that later stage causes a different offset error than what the input buffer is calibrated for, hence the different trace position.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: 4x1md on May 05, 2018, 06:09:55 pm

Quote
If it is to drive a non-Siglent AWG, maybe they can charge for it.
Maybe ?  :-//
It's very unlikely command protocols will work with other brands.

When doing Bode plots the AWG is swept through many frequencies/second so commands must be correct.
Plotting bode plot with a non-Siglent AWG is possible with a protocol translation software.

At certain point after getting the SDG1204X-E oscilloscope I wanted to know if it might be possible to use the bode plot function with a non-Siglent waveform generator.

After some researching and fuzzing I wrote a program in Python which acts as a small server. The oscilloscope connects to it using LAN and the program makes it think that it communicates with a genuine Siglent AWG. The program extracts the commands sent by the scope to the generator, parses them and translates to the command set, that the connected to the PC non-Siglent AWG is able to understand.

The video shows bode plot of an LPF with R=1kOhm and C=0.22μF. On the left you may see my program running on a netbook. For the first try I took the well known JDS6600 generator which is sold on eBay/AliExpress. Later I'll add drivers for two more AWG models.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PvueUHAJ78 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PvueUHAJ78)

I hope to have during the next weeks enough free time to publish the program on GitHub with detailed description on how it works.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on May 05, 2018, 06:13:26 pm
I was waiting for that!! Looking forward to try It with my rigol awg
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: Mr. Scram on May 05, 2018, 06:46:29 pm

Plotting bode plot with a non-Siglent AWG is possible with a protocol translation software.

At certain point after getting the SDG1204X-E oscilloscope I wanted to know if it might be possible to use the bode plot function with a non-Siglent waveform generator.

After some researching and fuzzing I wrote a program in Python which acts as a small server. When the oscilloscope connects to it using LAN. It thinks that it communicates with a genuine Siglent AWG. The program extracts the commands sent to the generator, parses them and translates to the command set, that the connected to the PC non-Siglent AWG is able to understand.

The video shows bode plot of an LPF with R=1kOhm and C=0.22μF. On the left you may see my program running on a netbook. For the first try I took the well known JDS6600 generator which is sold on eBay/AliExpress. Later I'll add drivers for two more AWG models.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PvueUHAJ78 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PvueUHAJ78)

I hope to have during the next weeks enough free time to publish the program on GitHub with detailed description on how it works.
Cool and that's actually fairly close to what I was planning to do. I don't quite understand the fascination with the built in or provided signal generators. It shouldn't be too hard to write a small script that does the same, as long as you have a SCPI scope and signal generator or AWG. You don't even have to depend on the accuracy of the generator, you can just measure the signal before it goes in and after it comes out. Plot to chart and done. If you have a sweep function on the generator it might be even easier.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 05, 2018, 07:37:14 pm
Plotting bode plot with a non-Siglent AWG is possible with a protocol translation software.

At certain point after getting the SDG1204X-E oscilloscope I wanted to know if it might be possible to use the bode plot function with a non-Siglent waveform generator.

After some researching and fuzzing I wrote a program in Python which acts as a small server. When the oscilloscope connects to it using LAN. It thinks that it communicates with a genuine Siglent AWG. The program extracts the commands sent to the generator, parses them and translates to the command set, that the connected to the PC non-Siglent AWG is able to understand.

The video shows bode plot of an LPF with R=1kOhm and C=0.22μF. On the left you may see my program running on a netbook. For the first try I took the well known JDS6600 generator which is sold on eBay/AliExpress. Later I'll add drivers for two more AWG models.

Well done!  :-+

AWG control for the bode plotter is a standard feature free of charge and of course it should always be possible to make any signal generator compatible by means of a command translator, as long as it can provide the required frequency resolution.
Wouldn't have guessed someone would go to the effort that soon ;)

After watching your video, there's one little hint about cursor measurements: in many cases (and certainly for the bode plot) it might be beneficial to use auto tracking cursors instead of manual ones.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: tautech on May 05, 2018, 10:21:08 pm

Quote
If it is to drive a non-Siglent AWG, maybe they can charge for it.
Maybe ?  :-//
It's very unlikely command protocols will work with other brands.

When doing Bode plots the AWG is swept through many frequencies/second so commands must be correct.
Plotting bode plot with a non-Siglent AWG is possible with a protocol translation software.

At certain point after getting the SDG1204X-E oscilloscope I wanted to know if it might be possible to use the bode plot function with a non-Siglent waveform generator.

After some researching and fuzzing I wrote a program in Python which acts as a small server. The oscilloscope connects to it using LAN and the program makes it think that it communicates with a genuine Siglent AWG. The program extracts the commands sent by the scope to the generator, parses them and translates to the command set, that the connected to the PC non-Siglent AWG is able to understand.

The video shows bode plot of an LPF with R=1kOhm and C=0.22μF. On the left you may see my program running on a netbook. For the first try I took the well known JDS6600 generator which is sold on eBay/AliExpress. Later I'll add drivers for two more AWG models.
That surly will be of interest to the community.
Quote
I hope to have during the next weeks enough free time to publish the program on GitHub with detailed description on how it works.
Great work and looking forward to your further efforts.  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 05, 2018, 10:26:43 pm
Some more vids on the SDS1kX-E models, just recently found:
Done by Jason from Siglent America.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AC6glStPwY&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AC6glStPwY&feature=youtu.be)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgAluROOPqQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgAluROOPqQ)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_eL3bdqz_w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_eL3bdqz_w)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on May 07, 2018, 03:59:58 pm
@3:30

"oops fat fingers" moment is actually finicky, unpredictable universal knob and bad GUI :)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 07, 2018, 09:38:19 pm
@3:30

"oops fat fingers" moment is actually finicky, unpredictable universal knob and bad GUI :)
Please do your homework as this vid by Jason was put online Jan 4th before any post release firmware became available. Many things were changed with rev 20R1.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on May 08, 2018, 12:41:19 am
Hi

I have SDS1104X-E with the latest firmware.  Scope has good hardware with many features but it could be much better and less frustrating with better software.

There are two issues demonstrated @3:30

1. you can press function key to toggle through menu options but highlighted option does not take effect until x amount of time (sometimes never, IIRC) or you have to depress universal knob to select it. 

This is a bad GUI design as hand has to travel from function key area to universal knob to make a selection and back to function keys to access other function/option/page and back to universal knob and so on...  It would have been much better if there was a way to select by either depressing function key for longer than, for example, 2 seconds, or make the round button next to function keys as enter key.

2. universal knob is too sensitive/imprecise for menu selection, also depressing it can move to the next option, the primary reason for 'fat finger error'

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on May 08, 2018, 01:05:17 am
Some more vids on the SDS1kX-E models, just recently found:
Done by Jason from Siglent America.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgAluROOPqQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgAluROOPqQ)

Just looking at how many hoops you have to jump through to put a measurement on screen (time=4:25 in the video).  :palm:

Rigols just have a row of buttons down the left side. Press button, done.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on May 08, 2018, 02:14:31 am
On that video you can also see that persistence does not automatically clear when adjusting vertical, or horizontal.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on May 08, 2018, 02:47:42 am
Hello,

I have SDS1104X-E with the latest firmware.  Scope has good hardware with many features but it could be much better and less frustrating with better software.
There are two issues demonstrated @3:30
1. you can press function key to toggle through menu options but highlighted option does not take effect until x amount of time (sometimes never, IIRC) or you have to depress universal knob to select it. 

I own 1204X-E (running the latest firmware as well) and have been using it quite a bit. I think  "X amount of time" is about 2-3 seconds and I actually like the fact that there is the aforementioned delay since it let me choose the necessary menu item  either slowly scrolling through the menu or using multiple presses. It's interesting that you mentioned "sometimes never" - I cannot remember if I ever saw/noticed something like that.

And yes, the universal know is touchy, but again after using the oscilloscope for some time I got used to it and can easily press the knob without disturbing it.

All in all I like this device but otherwise I would either return it or sell to get a suitable replacement (I had 1202X-E and exchanged it for 1204X-E). And when you find a decent scope with the same  functionality and in the same price range, with a well designed GUI etc - it would be nice to know its name (just for the record).

Edited 1 minute later: oh, I forgot one thing which sooner or later I will have to take care of - very loud fan. My plan in to use some sort of  "DC 12V Four Wire Thermostat PWM Fan Speed Controller Module"

(https://alexnld.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/SKU274152-2.jpg)

and a quiet fan to replace the stock one(constant speed, loud one).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on May 08, 2018, 11:59:13 am
IMO, if Siglent really thinks that their software is finished then Rigol will be back on top as soon as they refresh 1000 series hardware.

As to the noise, two books, on both sides of the scope cut down on fan noise considerably.  For the long run I am planning on 3d printing a manifold in order to improve cooling efficacy and use quieter, slower fan.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 08, 2018, 12:26:08 pm
Some more vids on the SDS1kX-E models, just recently found:
Done by Jason from Siglent America.



Just looking at how many hoops you have to jump through to put a measurement on screen (time=4:25 in the video).  :palm:

Rigols just have a row on buttons down the left side. Press button, done.
What are you on about ?
You can't have 38 buttons for each of the measurements on each channel, instead you need use a menu to select the ones you want and then you can toggle them all (selected) ON and OFF with a single button.

You really need do more homework.


Edited 1 minute later: oh, I forgot one thing which sooner or later I will have to take care of - very loud fan. My plan in to use some sort of  "DC 12V Four Wire Thermostat PWM Fan Speed Controller Module"

(https://alexnld.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/SKU274152-2.jpg)

and a quiet fan to replace the stock one(constant speed, loud one).

Of the few shipments of these I've had there are differences in fan noise.
The beta unit I've got is the loudest though not by lots and if I where you rather than control the fan I'd look up the specs of the installed one and attempt to find one quieter. It might be an idea first to try rubber mounting it to eliminate any resonance.

Do let us know how you get on.  :)

IMO, if Siglent really thinks that their software is finished then Rigol will be back on top as soon as they refresh 1000 series hardware.

Bob, you haven't been keeping up to date mate !
There's new FW due out anytime and Performa01 has worked hard with Siglent engineers to get the improvements we've all asked for.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on May 08, 2018, 01:13:41 pm
What are you on about ?
You can't have 38 buttons for each of the measurements on each channel, instead you need use a menu to select the ones you want and then you can toggle them all (selected) ON and OFF with a single button.

You really need do more homework.

You know you're not fooling anybody, right?

On a Rigol you have to press a button to switch between horizontal/vertical measurements, sure, and maybe another button to get less common measurements, but it's way faster/easier then going into a menu, twisting the twisty knob through a list of words then crossing your fingers it doesn't select a different value when you push it.

Plus you get little pictures of the measurements, not just names.

This:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=427762;image)

vs. this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=427768;image)

??

No contest. Rigol wins hands down.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TWMIV on May 08, 2018, 03:00:44 pm
Does anyone have a change log for 7.6.1.20 R2? I just got this scope about a week ago and it seems to already have a never version than what is available on Siglent's website.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 08, 2018, 10:55:20 pm
Does anyone have a change log for 7.6.1.20 R2? I just got this scope about a week ago and it seems to already have a never version than what is available on Siglent's website.
Yes this occasionally happens with new stock and then we know a new firmware version is imminent.
However sometimes that version is again superseded with new versions publicly released.
We should know what's been addressed in a few days.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 09, 2018, 01:05:39 am
What are you on about ?
You can't have 38 buttons for each of the measurements on each channel, instead you need use a menu to select the ones you want and then you can toggle them all (selected) ON and OFF with a single button.

You really need do more homework.

You know you're not fooling anybody, right?

On a Rigol you have to press a button to switch between horizontal/vertical measurements, sure, and maybe another button to get less common measurements, but it's way faster/easier then going into a menu, twisting the twisty knob through a list of words then crossing your fingers it doesn't select a different value when you push it.

Plus you get little pictures of the measurements, not just names.

This:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=427762;image)

vs. this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=427768;image)

??

No contest. Rigol wins hands down.
Oh so you want to look deeper into the UI of these DSO's.
Shall we examine User definable Default and how that might assist with Measurement setup/usage.

With X-E's the Default button can be assigned to either factory or user default setting.
With User settings one can have any UI parameter set to just how you want or like it, yes any parameter including any of the measurement types.
Described here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds1000x-e-oscilloscope-based-on-xilinx-zynq-7000-soc-architecture/msg1196101/#msg1196101 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds1000x-e-oscilloscope-based-on-xilinx-zynq-7000-soc-architecture/msg1196101/#msg1196101)
When set how you want them those measurements set can be toggled ON and OFF with a single press of Measurements.
Further, the display can be cleansed of unwanted menu clutter by use of the Menu toggle button where the measurements are then parked into the now vacant screen real-estate where the menus were.
These UI helpers/features allow the DSO to be set as we want it, not just as the manufacturer thinks is best.
Then we can also display some statistics too, as so:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=428146)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=428152)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rigol52 on May 09, 2018, 07:19:27 am

??

No contest. Rigol wins hands down.


Not for me, till Rigol is equipped with FRA (Bode plot) functionality.

BTW: I am currently Rigol owner, and wish to stay, but no without usable Bode plot feature.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on May 09, 2018, 01:23:41 pm
Both seem like compelling arguments.  It would be nice if someone did side-by-side comparison.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on May 09, 2018, 01:26:46 pm
No contest. Rigol wins hands down.
Not for me, till Rigol is equipped with FRA (Bode plot) functionality.

I thought we were talking about the UI for showing measurements on screen.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on May 09, 2018, 01:35:33 pm
Oh so you want to look deeper into the UI of these DSO's.
Shall we examine User definable Default and how that might assist ...

All I'm really interested in is how long it takes you to show (eg.) Vpp on screen when it isn't currently being displayed.

I don't think something so basic should need to be 'examined'. That smells of apologetics.

Here's how to do it on a Rigol DS1054Z:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=428485;image)

Simple question: What's the shortest possible equivalent on a Siglent?


And yes, the universal know is touchy, but again after using the oscilloscope for some time I got used to it and can easily press the knob without disturbing it.

Preferably a method where success doesn't depend on your video gaming skill level.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TWMIV on May 09, 2018, 05:06:47 pm
I have never used a Rigol scope, but I have used the DSOX: 1k, 2k, and 3k's from Keysight and their measurement selection system is similar to that of the Siglent.

The measurements are selected using a dial just like on the Siglent, however the Siglent allows you to select multiple measurements to display at the same time, while the Keysight has you selecting a single measurement at a time for each measurement "slot".

Really the only thing that is annoying with how Siglent is handling the measurement selection is the amount of time that it takes to move through the entire list of them.

In the end it is just a different way of handling it. Rigol is trading screen space for faster measurement selection.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on May 09, 2018, 06:01:33 pm
Siglent's measurement selection 'window' is also obstructing display while selecting options. 

Overall Rigol seems to be better at this since you want to make a quick selection and get back to working with a waveform, on the other hand I cannot think of a slower selection method Siglent could use then the current sequential access    :)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: radiolistener on May 09, 2018, 08:38:16 pm
Overall Rigol seems to be better

But Rigol is more expensive.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 09, 2018, 08:57:33 pm
Siglent's measurement selection 'window' is also obstructing display while selecting options. 
There's a Transparency setting in the Display menu, have you not found or used it yet ?

Quote
Overall Rigol seems to be better at this since you want to make a quick selection and get back to working with a waveform, on the other hand I cannot think of a slower selection method Siglent could use then the current sequential access    :)
One usually has a preferred set of measurements you use and once selected they all remain as your preferred measurement types and all are returned to the display with a single press of the Measurement button.
Not some small list of buttons that some manufacturer thinks are the types you should use but your own custom list !



Oh so you want to look deeper into the UI of these DSO's.
Shall we examine User definable Default and how that might assist ...

All I'm really interested in is how long it takes you to show (eg.) Vpp on screen when it isn't currently being displayed.

I don't think something so basic should need to be 'examined'. That smells of apologetics.
Actually it does demand investigation !

Particularly WRT measurement accuracies:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/testing-dso-auto-measurements-accuracy-across-timebases/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/testing-dso-auto-measurements-accuracy-across-timebases/)

I wonder if anything has improved ?
Or will you continue the same MO in further efforts to have members react so they might also be banned ?
Disgraceful behavior and now moderators are aware of it they're unlikely to be duped again by your actions.

Quote
Here's how to do it on a Rigol DS1054Z:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=428485;image)

Simple question: What's the shortest possible equivalent on a Siglent ?

Out of the box: one press of the Measurement button.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on May 10, 2018, 12:59:52 pm
Siglent's measurement selection 'window' is also obstructing display while selecting options. 
There's a Transparency setting in the Display menu, have you not found or used it yet ?

That particular window is fully opaque and does not follow transparency settings.

Speaking of transparency, there's a bug where, when menu is turned off, measurements window becomes opaque and obstructs part of the waveform.   You can see it in your screenshot, but it's more obvious when more items are selected making window taller.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=428152;image)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on May 10, 2018, 03:15:40 pm
One usually has a preferred set of measurements you use and once selected they all remain as your preferred measurement types and all are returned to the display with a single press of the Measurement button.

So you keep saying but I don't think I've ever worked that way. I hardly ever need the exact same set of measurements twice. :-//

(...and if I feel the need I can simply save the current state as a named setup in the internal memory - you know Rigols can do that, right?)

Actually it does demand investigation !

Particularly WRT (...something completely unrelated, snipped)

Changing the subject? Apologetics in action.

Or will you continue the same MO in further efforts to have members react so they might also be banned ?
Disgraceful behavior and now moderators are aware of it they're unlikely to be duped again by your actions.

Huh?

I made a simple observation based on that video. There's no need for any personal attacks, the only person trying to provoke anything is you.

Rigol is trading screen space for faster measurement selection.

Was that a good decision? In a poll my answer would be "yes".

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on May 10, 2018, 03:24:29 pm
Overall Rigol seems to be better

But Rigol is more expensive.

??

A DS1000Z is one of the cheapest oscilloscopes available, most people pay around $350 for theirs.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on May 10, 2018, 03:24:40 pm
How many measurement stats can Rigol display on the screen at the same time? 

Although I did not run into this issue yet as I usually use only two channels, max of 5 measured items on Siglent seems to few for a 4 ch scope...at least 8 would make more sense (2 stats per ch)

EDIT: looks like Rigol displays 5 items also, but Siglent gives more information such as Std-Dev and Count

(https://assets.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/DimLarge/1371697135.jpg)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on May 10, 2018, 03:51:51 pm
EDIT: looks like Rigol displays 5 items also, but Siglent gives more information such as Std-Dev and Count

Yep, it's five.

nb. You can take a quick peek at all the other measurements using the button on the right.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=429179;image)

It toggles an overlay, eg.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=429191;image)

...and Count
What happens if you press the button labelled "Counter"?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on May 10, 2018, 05:40:40 pm
EDIT: looks like Rigol displays 5 items also, but Siglent gives more information such as Std-Dev and Count

It toggles an overlay, eg.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=429191;image)


Interesting.  Siglent can display all measurements also, however, only for one channel at a time.  Your example is showing Ch1 and Ch2 at the same time, but waveform is covered up - can transparency be adjusted?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/?action=dlattach;attach=217508)


...so, what happens when you press the Counter button?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on May 11, 2018, 09:27:18 am
waveform is covered up - can transparency be adjusted?

I don't think so.

...so, what happens when you press the Counter button?

It shows the frequency counter.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: radiolistener on May 11, 2018, 10:23:47 am
Does someone tested input impedance of SDS1104X-E with vector signal analyzer?

I have old SDS1102X, and it's input impedance for frequency range 5-85 MHz is the following:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=429932;image)

If you want I can take results for other frequency range.
I'm very interested to compare results with other oscilloscope models.

As I understand the probe compensation issue is related to the input impedance mismatch.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: zabox909 on May 17, 2018, 06:17:57 pm
Hi,

I recently bought a SDS1104X-E and I really like it so far. Coming from an ancient Philips PM3234 the possibilities of a modern and affordable dso are amazing!
And I don't understand the issues some people have with the UI. I found it rather quick and intuitive to use and I like the clean layout.

The only major bug I've noticed is in the search function. Once the aquisition is stopped, the scope often can't find search events in other channels than the selected one during aquisition. It seems to be somehow related to the channel offset, I have included some screenshots. That really slows down my work, because I often need to single capture multiple channels and search for specific events in them.
Is anyone able to reproduce the bug? (FW: 7.6.1.20 R1)

ps: shout-out to Performa01 for the amazing review and the work he puts into improving the firmware!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 18, 2018, 02:01:48 pm
The only major bug I've noticed is in the search function.
...
Is anyone able to reproduce the bug? (FW: 7.6.1.20 R1)

I’ve already admitted that I did not do a thorough check on the Search function yet and right now I have very little time. Yet I’ve tried to reproduce that odd behavior and there is a bug indeed.

The test was done with two signals:
CH2: sine 5MHz 1.5Vpp
CH4: square 10MHz 1.5Vpp

First Search for rising slope at threshold 0V on channel 4 works as expected:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=435716;image)
01 SDS1104X-E Search CH4 Th0V-1


Then the same Search fails on channel 2:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=435722;image)
02 SDS1104X-E Search CH2 Th0V


Only after adjusting the threshold way negative, it starts working. The correct result is obtained when the channel 2 threshold level is at its negative maximum:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=435728;image)
03 SDS1104X-E Search CH2 Th-nmax


Switching back to channel 1 still works as before:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=435734;image)
04 SDS1104X-E Search CH4 Th0V-2


I’ll notify Siglent R&D of this issue.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 20, 2018, 09:44:03 am
Stemming from comments and questions about BW roll off I thought I'd offer some screenshots as examples.
Signal: HP 500 MHz sig gen and BNC connection.

SDS1104X-E just where waveform amplitude begins to reduce but still above -3dB BW

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=437200)


SDS1104X-E where the frequency counter starts to become unstable and waveform amplitude dramatically reduced.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=437206)


SDS1202X-E, as for SDS1104X-E above, frequency counter starts to become unstable and waveform amplitude dramatically reduced. One might presume SDS1204X-E will produce identical results.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=437212)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on May 20, 2018, 02:30:16 pm
@tautech, could you run the same test but with PP215 probe and SDS1104X-E?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: radiolistener on May 20, 2018, 02:45:17 pm
@tautech, can you please perform the same test for SDS1102X?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 20, 2018, 05:59:27 pm
@tautech, could you run the same test but with PP215 probe and SDS1104X-E?
Some probe data here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1439052/#msg1439052 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1439052/#msg1439052)
Frequency vs amplitude graph in posted link.

@tautech, can you please perform the same test for SDS1102X?
Sorry I don't have the 2ch SDS1102X+ older model any more, recently sold including 16ch MSO option.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 22, 2018, 11:17:30 am
New firmware for SDS1004X-E models
2 upgrades are offered, one for the OS and another for the firmware.

OS upgrade
17.6 Mb
https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/6158/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/6158/)

Firmware
7.6.1.25R1
7.5 Mb
https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/6154/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/6154/)

Changes and enhancements listed here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1555936/#msg1555936 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1555936/#msg1555936)

Also available is new firmware for the optional 16ch SLA1016 MSO module
7.8.1.9
https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/6161/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/6161/)

As always after updating perform Self Cal after a warm up period of ~30 minutes and take careful note of the firmware install instructions.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 22, 2018, 11:29:53 am
The above link is for the 7.6.1.20R1 firmware. The new firmware is missing on the Siglent America webpage.

Use this link for now:

https://www.siglenteu.com/download/5931/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/download/5931/)

EDIT: all update files are available on Siglent America webpage now too.  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Giuss on May 22, 2018, 05:43:11 pm
Hi, I have a SDS-1104X-E and I'm very happy with it.

My software version is the original 7.6.1.12R1, do you advice to update even if I don't have significant problems with it?

What is the correct procedure? I have to update the OS and the firmware togheter?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 22, 2018, 09:13:10 pm
Hi, I have a SDS-1104X-E and I'm very happy with it.

My software version is the original 7.6.1.12R1, do you advice to update even if I don't have significant problems with it?

What is the correct procedure? I have to update the OS and the firmware togheter?



Even if you have not noticed any significant problems yet, there are still lots of issues that have been addressed since the original V7.6.1.12 firmware. Traditionally, there are always significantly more fixes and improvements than what is listed in the version history. So my advice can only be to keep the firmware of your DSO up to date, even if you don't see an immediate need for that.

As for the correct procedure, it's basically straight forward. The OS update is independent from the firmware, so you can update both components in any order you like. I have updated the OS first, which happens so quick by the way that I wasn't even sure if it actually worked. Then the update of the firmware, where the additional version number field "7.1.6.1.25R1" finally confirmed that everything woked as expected.

Both updates are fairly easy to do:

OS update: just copy the 4 files (everything in the package short of the two version history files) to an empty 8GB or 32GB*) USB stick. Turn off the DSO, insert the USB stick, turn the scope on. After the startup is completed (which hardly takes any longer than usual), the update is already done.

Then copy the firmware update file *.ADS to the USB stick, plug it back in the DSO, choose UTILITY/UPDATE/Firmware, navigate to the *.ADS file using the universal control, then press the "Press To Update" softkey. Then restart the scope (using the power button) when prompted to do so and check the UTILITY/System Status to confirm the firmware version number is 7.1.6.1.25R1 as expected. Finally perform a self-calibration after the DSO has been up and running for at least 30 minutes (in total) and you're done.

*) This is what Siglent states in the update instructions. But actually any USB stick should work just fine, as long as it is FAT16 or FAT32 formatted.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on May 22, 2018, 09:18:38 pm
Parsings of the new ADS files:

Code: [Select]
SDS1004X_E_6.1.25R1.ADS

File Header Size: 00000070
00000000 - File Checksum: C60EB4BF [00000004-00757F76] (with only the File Header decrypted)  CKSM OK
00000004 - File Size: 00757F07 (without 0x70 bytes of the File Header)
0000000C - HW Version: 13501
00000026 - Vendor/Brand: SIGLENT
0000003A - USB Host Controller: ISP1763
****************************************************
Decrypting the 0x2800 and 0x1400 blocks...
Reversing file...
XORing with 0xFF (incrementing pattern)...
XORing with 0xFF from 0x003ABF84 until 0x00757F06
****************************************************
00000000 --- Section Checksum: C379054A
00000004 --- Section Size: 00757ED3 [00000034-00757F06]  CKSM OK
00000008 --- Section # 00000007
00000034 --- 00757F06  ***** ZIP file *****
Offset    Ver  Flag  Comp  Size      Packed    Modified             CRC32                          Name         Extra Details
00000034  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [00000056-00000055]  www/
00000056  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [00000082-00000081]  www/attchment/
00000082  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [000000A8-000000A7]  www/css/
000000A8  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [000000D5-000000D4]  www/css/device/
000000D5  2.0  0000  0008  00001A0A  0000065D  20-03-2018 13:58:04  DA06DD28  [00000114-00000770]  www/css/device/device_control.css
00000771  2.0  0000  0008  00000E6F  00000492  20-03-2018 13:58:04  731108C6  [000007A6-00000C37]  www/css/device/main.css
00000C38  2.0  0000  0008  000007DD  0000029B  20-03-2018 13:58:04  C8FCE2D7  [00000C67-00000F01]  www/css/login.css
00000F02  2.0  0000  0008  000011D5  00000577  20-03-2018 13:58:04  26D75603  [00000F33-000014A9]  www/css/welcome.css
000014AA  2.0  0000  0008  000007C4  00000239  20-03-2018 13:58:04  D3E45378  [000014DC-00001714]  www/deviceupdate.php
00001715  2.0  0000  0008  000005F2  0000017D  20-03-2018 13:58:05  7BB9B512  [0000174C-000018C8]  www/device_read_write.php
000018C9  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [000018F1-000018F0]  www/fonts/
000018F1  2.0  0000  0008  00011497  0001146B  20-03-2018 13:58:04  A3758D75  [00001930-00012D9A]  www/fonts/fontawesome-webfont.eot
00012D9B  2.0  0000  0008  00059430  0001A95E  20-03-2018 13:58:04  CFF95578  [00012DDA-0002D737]  www/fonts/fontawesome-webfont.svg
0002D738  2.0  0000  0008  00022AF8  0001453A  20-03-2018 13:58:04  AC39751F  [0002D777-00041CB0]  www/fonts/fontawesome-webfont.ttf
00041CB1  2.0  0000  0008  00014684  0001464C  20-03-2018 13:58:04  C17DCBF4  [00041CF1-0005633C]  www/fonts/fontawesome-webfont.woff
0005633D  2.0  0000  0008  00010440  00010431  20-03-2018 13:58:04  B5F6695A  [0005637E-000667AE]  www/fonts/fontawesome-webfont.woff2
000667AF  2.0  0000  0008  0001AC78  00015EFD  20-03-2018 13:58:04  98F5FCC9  [000667E6-0007C6E2]  www/fonts/FontAwesome.otf
0007C6E3  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [0007C709-0007C708]  www/img/
0007C709  2.0  0000  0008  00004723  0000112A  20-03-2018 13:58:07  0A7D1CDE  [0007C738-0007D861]  www/img/about.png
0007D862  2.0  0000  0008  00006682  00002200  20-03-2018 13:58:06  A3952F7A  [0007D891-0007FA90]  www/img/Home1.png
0007FA91  2.0  0000  0008  000056E1  00001973  20-03-2018 13:58:07  3F022755  [0007FAC0-00081432]  www/img/Home2.png
00081433  2.0  0000  0008  000001A9  000001AE  20-03-2018 13:58:06  2B0955C8  [00081465-00081612]  www/img/ic_login.png
00081613  2.0  0000  0008  0000015B  00000160  20-03-2018 13:58:06  26CF6E8F  [00081648-000817A7]  www/img/ic_password.png
000817A8  2.0  0000  0008  0000011E  00000121  20-03-2018 13:58:07  2D89CBF8  [000817D9-000818F9]  www/img/ic_user.png
000818FA  2.0  0000  0008  00006E08  00002A4F  20-03-2018 13:58:06  6A01E632  [0008192E-0008437C]  www/img/Intrument1.png
0008437D  2.0  0000  0008  00006444  00002088  20-03-2018 13:58:06  54331AA2  [000843B1-00086438]  www/img/Intrument2.png
00086439  2.0  0000  0008  0000704D  00002BC9  20-03-2018 13:58:07  7A6E3F62  [00086467-0008902F]  www/img/LAN1.png
00089030  2.0  0000  0008  00006179  00002345  20-03-2018 13:58:06  F227C9F5  [0008905E-0008B3A2]  www/img/LAN2.png
0008B3A3  2.0  0000  0008  000156C4  00012101  20-03-2018 13:58:06  4766C70E  [0008B3D1-0009D4D1]  www/img/logo.png
0009D4D2  2.0  0000  0008  0000740F  00002F8F  20-03-2018 13:58:06  A4E5054B  [0009D501-000A048F]  www/img/SCPI1.png
000A0490  2.0  0000  0008  00005DD6  000019E5  20-03-2018 13:58:06  10F8D9C4  [000A04BF-000A1EA3]  www/img/SCPI2.png
000A1EA4  2.0  0000  0008  00000261  00000101  20-03-2018 13:58:05  59765DD4  [000A1ECF-000A1FCF]  www/index.php
000A1FD0  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [000A1FFD-000A1FFC]  www/Instrument/
000A1FFD  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [000A2030-000A202F]  www/Instrument/novnc/
000A2030  2.0  0000  0008  00000012  00000012  20-03-2018 13:58:06  09EA74AA  [000A206E-000A207F]  www/Instrument/novnc/favicon.ico
000A2080  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [000A20BA-000A20B9]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/
000A20BA  2.0  0000  0008  00000153  00000151  20-03-2018 13:58:06  E8B725E1  [000A20FB-000A224B]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/alt.png
000A224C  2.0  0000  0008  000001F5  000001FA  20-03-2018 13:58:06  D063D8CA  [000A2293-000A248C]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/clipboard.png
000A248D  2.0  0000  0008  00000194  00000199  20-03-2018 13:58:06  310798F7  [000A24D2-000A266A]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/connect.png
000A266B  2.0  0000  0008  00000162  00000161  20-03-2018 13:58:06  6610B793  [000A26AD-000A280D]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/ctrl.png
000A280E  2.0  0000  0008  0000013D  00000142  20-03-2018 13:58:06  5FA26818  [000A2856-000A2997]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/ctrlaltdel.png
000A2998  2.0  0000  0008  00000562  00000567  20-03-2018 13:58:06  2EABA092  [000A29E0-000A2F46]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/disconnect.png
000A2F47  2.0  0000  0008  000003C3  000003C8  20-03-2018 13:58:06  06D319EE  [000A2F89-000A3350]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/drag.png
000A3351  2.0  0000  0008  00000181  00000182  20-03-2018 13:58:06  F86CB8F8  [000A3392-000A3513]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/esc.png
000A3514  2.0  0000  0008  0000019E  00000189  20-03-2018 13:58:06  FD031A25  [000A3558-000A36E0]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/expand.gif
000A36E1  2.0  0000  0008  0000047E  000000FF  20-03-2018 13:58:06  B17B6C52  [000A3726-000A3824]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/favicon.ico
000A3825  2.0  0000  0008  000001C5  000001C5  20-03-2018 13:58:06  86BA4433  [000A386A-000A3A2E]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/favicon.png
000A3A2F  2.0  0000  0008  000002ED  000002F2  20-03-2018 13:58:06  3956D9F0  [000A3A78-000A3D69]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/full_screen.png
000A3D6A  2.0  0000  0008  000001A7  00000199  20-03-2018 13:58:06  FFF8D302  [000A3DAC-000A3F44]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/hide.gif
000A3F45  2.0  0000  0008  00000503  00000508  20-03-2018 13:58:06  0E44D2DA  [000A3F8B-000A4492]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/keyboard.png
000A4493  2.0  0000  0008  0000014A  00000141  20-03-2018 13:58:06  297C782F  [000A44D5-000A4615]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/left.png
000A4616  2.0  0000  0008  000001FF  00000204  20-03-2018 13:58:06  33C0F7B9  [000A465E-000A4861]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/mouse_left.png
000A4862  2.0  0000  0008  00000205  0000020A  20-03-2018 13:58:06  DE48BB49  [000A48AC-000A4AB5]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/mouse_middle.png
000A4AB6  2.0  0000  0008  000001F1  000001F6  20-03-2018 13:58:06  B8155471  [000A4AFE-000A4CF3]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/mouse_none.png
000A4CF4  2.0  0000  0008  00000201  00000206  20-03-2018 13:58:06  4BDAF377  [000A4D3D-000A4F42]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/mouse_right.png
000A4F43  2.0  0000  0008  000000DF  000000D1  20-03-2018 13:58:06  5BC997F5  [000A4F8C-000A505C]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/new-down-24.png
000A505D  2.0  0000  0008  000000EE  000000E0  20-03-2018 13:58:06  059AC92F  [000A50A6-000A5185]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/new-left-24.png
000A5186  2.0  0000  0008  000000EA  000000DD  20-03-2018 13:58:06  D3CBF039  [000A51D0-000A52AC]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/new-right-24.png
000A52AD  2.0  0000  0008  000000B7  000000AB  20-03-2018 13:58:06  3407F6E1  [000A52F4-000A539E]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/new-up-24.png
000A539F  2.0  0000  0008  00000186  00000188  20-03-2018 13:58:06  4EA5EAAC  [000A53E2-000A5569]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/power.png
000A556A  2.0  0000  0008  00000257  0000025C  20-03-2018 13:58:06  4DA3EF2C  [000A55B1-000A580C]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/press_new.png
000A580D  2.0  0000  0008  00000122  0000011C  20-03-2018 13:58:06  11609785  [000A5850-000A596B]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/right.png
000A596C  2.0  0000  0008  00000141  0000013E  20-03-2018 13:58:06  0AA95190  [000A59B3-000A5AF0]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/r_left-16.png
000A5AF1  2.0  0000  0008  00000142  0000013D  20-03-2018 13:58:06  D26DA198  [000A5B39-000A5C75]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/r_right-16.png
000A5C76  2.0  0000  0008  000031EA  00002ED0  20-03-2018 13:58:06  BB29E23A  [000A5CC2-000A8B91]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/screen_320x460.png
000A8B92  2.0  0000  0008  0000070F  00000714  20-03-2018 13:58:06  6D5EA4CD  [000A8BDC-000A92EF]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/screen_57x57.png
000A92F0  2.0  0000  0008  0000460A  00003DE3  20-03-2018 13:58:06  82300E91  [000A933C-000AD11E]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/screen_700x700.png
000AD11F  2.0  0000  0008  000009BF  00000977  20-03-2018 13:58:06  4A582C85  [000AD165-000ADADB]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/settings.png
000ADADC  2.0  0000  0008  000002DF  000002E4  20-03-2018 13:58:06  AD86DFB3  [000ADB27-000ADE0A]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/showextrakeys.png
000ADE0B  2.0  0000  0008  000000AD  000000A0  20-03-2018 13:58:06  76A67EB7  [000ADE4D-000ADEEC]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/stop.png
000ADEED  2.0  0000  0008  00000183  00000186  20-03-2018 13:58:06  5026226C  [000ADF2E-000AE0B3]  www/Instrument/novnc/images/tab.png
000AE0B4  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [000AE0EF-000AE0EE]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/
000AE0EF  2.0  0000  0008  00002A18  000009ED  10-04-2018 09:04:02  95E49CF6  [000AE132-000AEB1E]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/base.css
000AEB1F  2.0  0000  0008  0000153E  0000088A  20-03-2018 13:58:05  7A8AC16F  [000AEB63-000AF3EC]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/base64.js
000AF3ED  2.0  0000  0008  00002AB0  000009FF  20-03-2018 17:29:18  611EECF8  [000AF437-000AFE35]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/base_mobile.css
000AFE36  2.0  0000  0008  00001205  000002F4  20-03-2018 13:58:05  32FDD938  [000AFE7A-000B016D]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/black.css
000B016E  2.0  0000  0008  00000534  000001A5  20-03-2018 13:58:05  F31B00F0  [000B01B1-000B0355]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/blue.css
000B0356  2.0  0000  0008  000007EE  000002B4  20-03-2018 13:58:05  58434E20  [000B039C-000B064F]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/browsers.js
000B0650  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [000B0696-000B0695]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/chrome-app/
000B0696  2.0  0000  0008  000024F9  00000A27  20-03-2018 13:58:05  17252ED4  [000B06E9-000B110F]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/chrome-app/tcp-client.js
000B1110  2.0  0000  0008  000029BA  00000F2C  20-03-2018 13:58:05  C52426D5  [000B1151-000B207C]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/des.js
000B207D  2.0  0000  0008  00005575  0000175C  20-03-2018 13:58:05  CD04C438  [000B20C2-000B381D]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/display.js
000B381E  2.0  0000  0008  00002C4A  00000A8C  20-03-2018 13:58:05  5D13357B  [000B3867-000B42F2]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/domkeytable.js
000B42F3  2.0  0000  0008  000004E0  000001EF  20-03-2018 13:58:05  66DA53C8  [000B433A-000B4528]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/encodings.js
000B4529  2.0  0000  0008  000010A2  000005A8  20-03-2018 13:58:05  7934485D  [000B456D-000B4B14]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/events.js
000B4B15  2.0  0000  0008  00000409  00000196  20-03-2018 13:58:05  C7D62201  [000B4B5E-000B4CF3]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/eventtarget.js
000B4CF4  2.0  0000  0008  00000EC4  00000467  20-03-2018 13:58:05  6AAB8870  [000B4D3B-000B51A1]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/fixedkeys.js
000B51A2  2.0  0000  0008  0000049A  000001CE  20-03-2018 13:58:05  6C773BC2  [000B51E8-000B53B5]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/inflator.js
000B53B6  2.0  0000  0008  0000C6A5  00002DAD  20-03-2018 13:58:05  CB3AA190  [000B53F9-000B81A5]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/input.js
000B81A6  2.0  0000  0008  00004AC1  00001319  20-03-2018 13:58:05  564AF4D0  [000B81EB-000B9503]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/jsunzip.js
000B9504  2.0  0000  0008  00005168  000015AA  20-03-2018 13:58:05  C9CCAD61  [000B954A-000BAAF3]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/keyboard.js
000BAAF4  2.0  0000  0008  000057FE  000011D5  20-03-2018 13:58:05  BFC59E51  [000BAB38-000BBD0C]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/keysym.js
000BBD0D  2.0  0000  0008  00005422  00001F89  20-03-2018 13:58:05  BA5BA9A2  [000BBD54-000BDCDC]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/keysymdef.js
000BDCDD  2.0  0000  0008  00000536  00000209  20-03-2018 13:58:05  156BE805  [000BDD22-000BDF2A]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/logging.js
000BDF2B  2.0  0000  0008  00006BDA  00004E97  20-03-2018 13:58:05  83395258  [000BDF6D-000C2E03]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/logo.js
000C2E04  2.0  0000  0008  00002740  00000A7D  20-03-2018 13:58:05  4F35F4AF  [000C2E47-000C38C3]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/mouse.js
000C38C4  2.0  0000  0008  000096B4  00004435  20-03-2018 13:58:05  75810239  [000C390E-000C7D42]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/Orbitron700.ttf
000C7D43  2.0  0000  0008  00004440  0000441B  20-03-2018 13:58:05  9B7440BD  [000C7D8E-000CC1A8]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/Orbitron700.woff
000CC1A9  2.0  0000  0008  000009BF  00000396  20-03-2018 13:58:05  EB0D8CA4  [000CC1EF-000CC584]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/playback.js
000CC585  2.0  0000  0008  0000074F  000002F4  20-03-2018 13:58:05  CA2202E0  [000CC5CB-000CC8BE]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/polyfill.js
000CC8BF  2.0  0000  0008  0000F4DE  000039CD  20-03-2018 13:58:05  552B77F4  [000CC900-000D02CC]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/rfb.js
000D02CD  2.0  0000  0008  0000013B  000000E7  20-03-2018 13:58:05  312DF302  [000D0312-000D03F8]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/strings.js
000D03F9  2.0  0000  0008  0000901A  00001C34  20-03-2018 13:58:05  8C2E1648  [000D0439-000D206C]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/ui.js
000D206D  2.0  0000  0008  00002425  00000B93  20-03-2018 13:58:05  D823E18B  [000D20AF-000D2C41]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/util.js
000D2C42  2.0  0000  0008  000009D7  000003B6  20-03-2018 13:58:05  BFC66E5F  [000D2C85-000D303A]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/vkeys.js
000D303B  2.0  0000  0008  0000043F  000001F6  20-03-2018 13:58:05  66464436  [000D307C-000D3271]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/vnc.js
000D3272  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [000D32BB-000D32BA]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/web-socket-js/
000D32BB  2.0  0000  0008  00001753  00001758  20-03-2018 13:58:05  F2D8E66E  [000D330E-000D4A65]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/web-socket-js/README.txt
000D4A66  2.0  0000  0008  000027EC  00000F3C  20-03-2018 13:58:05  C1200AA1  [000D4ABB-000D59F6]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/web-socket-js/swfobject.js
000D59F7  2.0  0000  0008  0002B3F3  0002981D  20-03-2018 13:58:05  044DC2E9  [000D5A51-000FF26D]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/web-socket-js/WebSocketMain.swf
000FF26E  2.0  0000  0008  000032F0  0000104B  20-03-2018 13:58:05  8FA21DD0  [000FF2C4-0010030E]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/web-socket-js/web_socket.js
0010030F  2.0  0000  0008  000023E2  00000B42  20-03-2018 13:58:05  FF6488B2  [00100354-00100E95]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/websock.js
00100E96  2.0  0000  0008  00001041  00000652  20-03-2018 13:58:05  F887C1C8  [00100EDB-0010152C]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/webutil.js
0010152D  2.0  0000  0008  000037B0  00000F15  20-03-2018 13:58:05  2076F13A  [00101576-0010248A]  www/Instrument/novnc/include/xtscancodes.js
0010248B  2.0  0000  0008  00000AE2  00000AA5  20-03-2018 13:58:05  5DF86B18  [001024C9-00102F6D]  www/Instrument/novnc/LICENSE.txt
00102F6E  2.0  0000  0008  00001512  000009A4  20-03-2018 13:58:06  ECFC1F4A  [00102FAA-0010394D]  www/Instrument/novnc/README.md
0010394E  2.0  0000  0008  0000BEF0  000023D0  10-04-2018 09:04:02  5672FDC1  [0010398D-00105D5C]  www/Instrument/novnc/vnc_auto.php
00105D5D  2.0  0000  0008  0000CD7D  00002637  20-03-2018 17:29:18  C76FD942  [00105DA3-001083D9]  www/Instrument/novnc/vnc_auto_mobile.php
001083DA  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [001083FF-001083FE]  www/js/
001083FF  2.0  0000  0008  000017EF  00000836  20-03-2018 13:58:06  29BD1571  [0010842C-00108C61]  www/js/cycle.js
00108C62  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [00108C8E-00108C8D]  www/js/device/
00108C8E  2.0  0000  0008  00012AEA  000031CD  20-03-2018 13:58:06  28E339A3  [00108CC4-0010BE90]  www/js/device/t_table.js
0010BE91  2.0  0000  0008  0000069E  000002D8  20-03-2018 13:58:06  D03B120A  [0010BEC2-0010C199]  www/js/home_info.js
0010C19A  2.0  0000  0008  00010C6C  00002D85  20-03-2018 13:58:06  5E8976A5  [0010C1C9-0010EF4D]  www/js/iscroll.js
0010EF4E  2.0  0000  0008  00000C31  00000539  20-03-2018 13:58:06  DB5D4D50  [0010EF83-0010F4BB]  www/js/jquery.cookie.js
0010F4BC  2.0  0000  0008  0000FD23  00003377  20-03-2018 13:58:06  F4479356  [0010F4F5-0011286B]  www/js/jquery.fileupload.js
0011286C  2.0  0000  0008  00002C0C  00000B06  20-03-2018 13:58:06  A612B1BD  [001128AB-001133B0]  www/js/jquery.iframe-transport.js
001133B1  2.0  0000  0008  000176F8  00008125  20-03-2018 13:58:06  6AE93E35  [001133E3-0011B507]  www/js/jquery.min.js
0011B508  2.0  0000  0008  000013E4  000006A3  20-03-2018 13:58:06  40D7DC92  [0011B541-0011BBE3]  www/js/jquery.pagination.js
0011BBE4  2.0  0000  0008  00001E96  00000AA1  20-03-2018 13:58:06  8C7EA0B6  [0011BC1E-0011C6BE]  www/js/jquery.transit.min.js
0011C6BF  2.0  0000  0008  00000FC3  00000544  20-03-2018 13:58:06  5737EAD4  [0011C6F8-0011CC3B]  www/js/jquery.wordexport.js
0011CC3C  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [0011CC70-0011CC6F]  www/js/JSON-js-master/
0011CC70  2.0  0000  0008  000017EF  00000836  20-03-2018 13:58:06  29BD1571  [0011CCAC-0011D4E1]  www/js/JSON-js-master/cycle.js
0011D4E2  2.0  0000  0008  00004800  0000157C  20-03-2018 13:58:06  685DAC78  [0011D51E-0011EA99]  www/js/JSON-js-master/json2.js
0011EA9A  2.0  0000  0008  000023FF  00000A6B  20-03-2018 13:58:06  FE620627  [0011EADB-0011F545]  www/js/JSON-js-master/json_parse.js
0011F546  2.0  0000  0008  00003341  00000CFC  20-03-2018 13:58:06  C908B106  [0011F58D-00120288]  www/js/JSON-js-master/json_parse_state.js
00120289  2.0  0000  0008  00000689  0000035D  20-03-2018 13:58:06  B4BE88FD  [001202C3-0012061F]  www/js/JSON-js-master/README
00120620  2.0  0000  0008  00004800  0000157C  20-03-2018 13:58:06  685DAC78  [0012064D-00121BC8]  www/js/json2.js
00121BC9  2.0  0000  0008  000023FF  00000A6B  20-03-2018 13:58:06  FE620627  [00121BFB-00122665]  www/js/json_parse.js
00122666  2.0  0000  0008  00003341  00000CFC  20-03-2018 13:58:06  C908B106  [0012269E-00123399]  www/js/json_parse_state.js
0012339A  2.0  0000  0008  000046A4  00000C68  20-03-2018 13:58:06  106FAAB6  [001233CC-00124033]  www/js/lan_config.js
00124034  2.0  0000  0008  00000085  00000062  20-03-2018 13:58:06  872B6CB6  [00124062-001240C3]  www/js/log_in.js
001240C4  2.0  0000  0008  0000215A  00000BE2  20-03-2018 13:58:06  A11D7515  [001240F0-00124CD1]  www/js/main.js
00124CD2  2.0  0000  0008  00001DD7  00000A40  20-03-2018 13:58:06  02D7D4BB  [00124D00-0012573F]  www/js/mcplib.js
00125740  2.0  0000  0008  000001E4  000000B9  20-03-2018 13:58:06  CC50E34D  [0012576B-00125823]  www/js/npm.js
00125824  2.0  0000  0008  00019503  000084B5  20-03-2018 13:58:06  FC554B04  [00125858-0012DD0C]  www/js/TweenMax.min.js
0012DD0D  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [0012DD39-0012DD38]  www/js/vendor/
0012DD39  2.0  0000  0008  00003ED9  00001325  20-03-2018 13:58:06  B8246F6C  [0012DD78-0012F09C]  www/js/vendor/jquery.ui.widget.js
0012F09D  2.0  0000  0008  00000B2D  0000045B  20-03-2018 13:58:06  F719B09D  [0012F0C7-0012F521]  www/js/xhtml
0012F522  2.0  0000  0008  00007D6F  00001F54  20-03-2018 13:58:06  0AE8B9F2  [0012F55E-001314B1]  www/js/xhtml1-transitional.dtd
001314B2  2.0  0000  0008  00001E9B  00000686  20-03-2018 13:58:05  7F4DEC6B  [001314DB-00131B60]  www/lan.php
00131B61  2.0  0000  0008  00002BDE  000008FB  20-03-2018 13:58:05  CB8B927E  [00131B92-0013248C]  www/lan_setting.php
0013248D  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [001324B3-001324B2]  www/log/
001324B3  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  20-03-2018 13:58:03  00000000  [001324EB-001324EA]  www/log/lighttpd_error.log
001324EB  2.0  0000  0008  000010C6  00000600  20-03-2018 13:58:05  4E3BEE8D  [00132516-00132B15]  www/login.php
00132B16  2.0  0000  0008  0000011B  000000B7  20-03-2018 13:58:05  562D1E79  [00132B42-00132BF8]  www/logout.php
00132BF9  2.0  0000  0008  000010AE  00000546  20-03-2018 13:58:03  F7CB535A  [00132C2B-00133170]  www/SCPI_control.php
00133171  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [00133197-00133196]  www/src/
00133197  2.0  0000  0008  000000B9  0000007F  20-03-2018 13:58:03  E60190A8  [001331C4-00133242]  www/src/IDN.php
00133243  2.0  0000  0008  000000C8  00000082  20-03-2018 13:58:03  9E8519B7  [00133273-001332F4]  www/src/index.html
001332F5  2.0  0000  0008  00000096  00000060  20-03-2018 11:03:29  ABE0D254  [00133324-00133383]  www/vncserver.txt
00133384  2.0  0000  0008  00001366  00000502  20-03-2018 13:58:03  0C3FC166  [001333B1-001338B2]  www/welcome.php
001338B3  2.0  0000  0008  0000CD29  00000FDE  18-04-2018 17:53:04  E101006D  [001338E4-001348C1]  factory_setting.xml
001348C2  2.0  0000  0008  003DBB6D  00154A22  07-03-2018 14:20:22  1ADBD5D6  [001348FA-0028931B]  top_sds1000b_fpga_256M.bit
0028931C  2.0  0000  0008  00000E3A  00000337  20-03-2018 14:44:03  3C5F04C4  [00289343-00289679]  update.sh
0028967A  2.0  0000  0008  000058A2  000020FB  20-03-2018 11:04:02  754BE126  [002896A1-0028B79B]  vncserver
0028B79C  2.0  0000  0008  00C9BFBC  003ED733  03-05-2018 17:29:18  5E6E10C9  [0028B7C6-00678EF8]  sds1000b.app
00678EF9  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:29  00000000  [00678F1F-00678F1E]  drivers/
00678F1F  2.0  0000  0008  000068AD  000027D3  08-07-2017 00:10:13  FAAA09A7  [00678F50-0067B722]  drivers/g_usbtmc.ko
0067B723  2.0  0000  0008  0000ECB5  00005D2C  08-07-2017 00:10:13  6E3E714E  [0067B758-00681483]  drivers/libcomposite.ko
00681484  2.0  0000  0008  000118E6  0000778E  17-11-2017 10:16:20  4C1729CD  [006814B4-00688C41]  drivers/mt7601u.ko
00688C42  2.0  0000  0008  000028C5  00000DF7  08-07-2017 00:10:12  EADEFABE  [00688C74-00689A6A]  drivers/siglentkb.ko
00689A6B  2.0  0000  0008  00002E6E  000010D2  08-07-2017 00:10:12  2DAC2FC4  [00689A9F-0068AB70]  drivers/siglent_dma.ko
0068AB71  2.0  0000  0008  00002396  00000D35  08-07-2017 00:10:12  888DAB3C  [0068ABA6-0068B8DA]  drivers/siglent_vdma.ko
0068B8DB  2.0  0000  0008  00002288  00000B80  20-03-2018 11:04:02  E0989036  [0068B90F-0068C48E]  drivers/siglent_vnc.ko
0068C48F  2.0  0000  0008  00003729  00001639  08-07-2017 00:10:12  AF8F4F6D  [0068C4C6-0068DAFE]  drivers/xilinx_axicdma.ko
0068DAFF  2.0  0000  0008  00003B9B  00001756  08-07-2017 00:10:12  A70C189A  [0068DB35-0068F28A]  drivers/xilinx_axidma.ko
0068F28B  2.0  0000  0008  0000412D  00001999  08-07-2017 00:10:12  6F40AEAD  [0068F2BF-00690C57]  drivers/xilinx_vdma.ko
00690C58  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:29  00000000  [00690C7A-00690C79]  lib/
00690C7A  2.0  0000  0008  00005F13  00001B04  20-03-2018 11:04:02  9F6ED423  [00690CA8-006927AB]  lib/brusvxi11.so
006927AC  2.0  0000  0008  0000916E  00003F99  20-03-2018 11:04:02  5B27B9AB  [006927E2-0069677A]  lib/ext_device_driver.so
0069677B  2.0  0000  0008  0006656C  00022BE8  20-03-2018 11:04:02  7405C839  [006967AA-006B9391]  lib/libEasyLib.so
006B9392  2.0  0000  0008  0001E649  00008EBF  20-03-2018 11:04:02  AB77BB49  [006B93C3-006C2281]  lib/libvncclient.so
006C2282  2.0  0000  0008  0001E649  00008EBF  20-03-2018 11:04:02  AB77BB49  [006C22B5-006CB173]  lib/libvncclient.so.1
006CB174  2.0  0000  0008  00047C72  00016090  20-03-2018 11:04:02  6DB3266F  [006CB1A5-006E1234]  lib/libvncserver.so
006E1235  2.0  0000  0008  00047C72  00016091  20-03-2018 11:04:02  6DB3266F  [006E1268-006F72F8]  lib/libvncserver.so.1
006F72F9  1.0  0000  0000  00000000  00000000  24-04-2018 16:46:28  00000000  [006F731F-006F731E]  ui_data/
006F731F  2.0  0000  0008  0001984A  00003053  08-03-2018 16:16:09  A321AADF  [006F7359-006FA3AB]  ui_data/arabic_help_info.xml
006FA3AC  2.0  0000  0008  00022B4D  00002B17  18-04-2018 17:53:04  B8A5607F  [006FA3E6-006FCEFC]  ui_data/arabic_menu_info.xml
006FCEFD  2.0  0000  0008  00008529  00001991  19-04-2018 14:25:18  722FD019  [006FCF37-006FE8C7]  ui_data/arabic_text_info.xml
006FE8C8  2.0  0000  0008  000003F8  00000058  08-03-2018 16:16:09  9DBCA89C  [006FE8F5-006FE94C]  ui_data/dev.bmp
006FE94D  2.0  0000  0008  00019EFD  00003092  08-03-2018 16:16:09  A042F574  [006FE988-00701A19]  ui_data/english_help_info.xml
00701A1A  2.0  0000  0008  00022DDF  00002B36  18-04-2018 17:53:04  88791D66  [00701A55-0070458A]  ui_data/english_menu_info.xml
0070458B  2.0  0000  0008  00008529  00001991  19-04-2018 14:25:18  722FD019  [007045C6-00705F56]  ui_data/english_text_info.xml
00705F57  2.0  0000  0008  0001986B  00003073  08-03-2018 16:16:09  6D3AED90  [00705F91-00709003]  ui_data/french_help_info.xml
00709004  2.0  0000  0008  000230AD  00002C7E  18-04-2018 17:53:04  8AED7EF8  [0070903E-0070BCBB]  ui_data/french_menu_info.xml
0070BCBC  2.0  0000  0008  0000850D  000019B5  19-04-2018 14:25:18  C784D9DF  [0070BCF6-0070D6AA]  ui_data/french_text_info.xml
0070D6AB  2.0  0000  0008  00019838  0000306C  08-03-2018 16:16:09  FF327C9E  [0070D6E5-00710750]  ui_data/german_help_info.xml
00710751  2.0  0000  0008  0002358D  00002D69  20-04-2018 17:31:26  5C3D513E  [0071078B-007134F3]  ui_data/german_menu_info.xml
007134F4  2.0  0000  0008  00008C86  00001BDE  20-04-2018 17:31:26  F42DFD2B  [0071352E-0071510B]  ui_data/german_text_info.xml
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007272A4  2.0  0000  0008  000237D5  00002E05  18-04-2018 17:53:05  E52D07AF  [007272DE-0072A0E2]  ui_data/korean_menu_info.xml
0072A0E3  2.0  0000  0008  00008529  00001991  19-04-2018 14:25:18  722FD019  [0072A11D-0072BAAD]  ui_data/korean_text_info.xml
0072BAAE  2.0  0000  0008  00019838  0000306C  08-03-2018 16:16:09  0E61E2CD  [0072BAEC-0072EB57]  ui_data/portuguese_help_info.xml
0072EB58  2.0  0000  0008  00023003  00002C22  18-04-2018 17:53:04  B53815DB  [0072EB96-007317B7]  ui_data/portuguese_menu_info.xml
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007459F3  2.0  0000  0008  00023289  00002C26  18-04-2018 17:53:04  AD8DF98C  [00745A2E-00748653]  ui_data/spanish_menu_info.xml
00748654  2.0  0000  0008  00008540  000019B7  19-04-2018 14:25:18  3D98F0D4  [0074868F-0074A045]  ui_data/spanish_text_info.xml
0074A046  2.0  0000  0008  00018402  00003278  08-03-2018 16:16:09  310C9F64  [0074A07E-0074D2F5]  ui_data/trad_help_info.xml
0074D2F6  2.0  0000  0008  000236C1  00002EC2  18-04-2018 17:53:04  8C72FBFC  [0074D32E-007501EF]  ui_data/trad_menu_info.xml
007501F0  2.0  0000  0008  0000846C  00001AF7  19-04-2018 14:25:18  5395CA64  [00750228-00751D1E]  ui_data/trad_text_info.xml
00751D1F  2.0  0000  0008  00000308  00000066  08-03-2018 16:16:10  539A7E1A  [00751D4C-00751DB1]  ui_data/usb.bmp
Disk Entries: 225   Total Entries: 225   Directory Size: 24895 bytes  [00751DB2-00757EF0]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SLA1016_8.1.9.ADS

File Header Size: 00000070
00000000 - File Checksum: DA10D267 [00000004-004C5322] (with only the File Header decrypted)  CKSM OK
00000004 - File Size: 004C52B3 (without 0x70 bytes of the File Header)
0000000C - HW Version: 14501
00000026 - Vendor/Brand: SIGLENT
0000003A - USB Host Controller: ISP1763
****************************************************
Decrypting the 0x2800 and 0x1400 blocks...
Reversing file...
XORing with 0xFF (incrementing pattern)...
XORing with 0xFF from 0x0026295A until 0x004C52B2
****************************************************
00000000 --- Section Checksum: D827DE50
00000004 --- Section Size: 004C527F [00000034-004C52B2]  CKSM OK
00000008 --- Section # 00000007
00000034 --- 004C52B2  ***** ZIP file *****
Offset    Ver  Flag  Comp  Size      Packed    Modified             CRC32                          Name         Extra Details
00000034  2.0  0000  0008  0000CD29  00000FDE  18-04-2018 17:53:04  E101006D  [00000065-00001042]  factory_setting.xml
00001043  2.0  0000  0008  003DBB68  000D71AD  30-03-2018 10:36:14  6A4BBCC3  [00001076-000D8222]  top_sds1000b_fpga.bit
000D8223  2.0  0000  0008  00000CD1  0000030A  08-11-2017 16:59:20  63FABAD6  [000D824A-000D8553]  update.sh
000D8554  2.0  0000  0008  00C9ACE4  003ECB9A  20-04-2018 17:33:10  9D7B62C9  [000D857E-004C5117]  sds1000b.app
Disk Entries: 4   Total Entries: 4   Directory Size: 389 bytes  [004C5118-004C529C]

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 22, 2018, 09:18:51 pm
As a note/addition I installed the FW and then OS from a freshly formatted and only 512 MB USB stick.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 22, 2018, 09:36:50 pm
As a note/addition I installed the FW and then OS from a freshly formatted and only 512 MB USB stick.

So it's confirmed that we can do it in any order we like.

Regarding USB stick size, I've already suspected that it doesn't really matter, but since I was in a hurry I did not want to take a chance and sticked - pun intended ;) - with the update instructions. Glad you can confirm that any USB stick will work, as long as it uses a (not ex!) FAT format.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 22, 2018, 09:44:16 pm
As a note/addition I installed the FW and then OS from a freshly formatted and only 512 MB USB stick.

So it's confirmed that we can do it in any order we like.
Not entirely sure as some of the improvements you've listed in the Review thread I've not seen yet. More study needed. Got to whip out and get another shipment so it'll be later before I look at this all in detail.
Like Arny, I'll be back.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 23, 2018, 05:30:40 am
As a note/addition I installed the FW and then OS from a freshly formatted and only 512 MB USB stick.

So it's confirmed that we can do it in any order we like.
Not entirely sure as some of the improvements you've listed in the Review thread I've not seen yet. More study needed. Got to whip out and get another shipment so it'll be later before I look at this all in detail.
Like Arny, I'll be back.  :)

Please don't alienate the folks here ;)

Verifying the listed fixes/improvements is a completely different matter and I will certainly take a closer look at them soon - even though I generally have very little time right now.

Whenever the system status displays 7.1.6.1.25R1 as the software version, then this proves that both (OS and FW) updates have worked okay. No further confirmation needed.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nez on May 23, 2018, 07:01:43 am
For some reason, the OS update doesn't seem to install for me.  However, I was able to install the firmware with the .ADS file (using the same usb stick) so now my system version shows:

Software Version: 7.0.6.1.25R1
FPGA Version: 2018-03-06

Any ideas why it won't pick up the OS update during bootup?  I've tried having the usb stick in the front and back ports when I power on.  The files were in the root directory with nothing else on the drive.

I'll try another usb stick when I have time to go find one.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on May 23, 2018, 07:08:35 am
For some reason, the OS update doesn't seem to install for me.  However, I was able to install the firmware with the .ADS file (using the same usb stick) so now my system version shows:

Software Version: 7.0.6.1.25R1
FPGA Version: 2018-03-06

Any ideas why it won't pick up the OS update during bootup?  I've tried having the usb stick in the front and back ports when I power on.  The files were in the root directory with nothing else on the drive.

I'll try another usb stick when I have time to go find one.

same issue for me...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 23, 2018, 08:27:54 am
For those who have issues with the OS update:

Did you make sure the 4 files match the screenshot in the update instructions?

With the USB stick plugged in, if you go to any save/load/update function, are the files on the stick properly displayed on the scope?


EDIT: Attached a screenshot of the System Status display on my scope after the update.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on May 23, 2018, 08:44:36 am
Any ideas why it won't pick up the OS update during bootup?  I've tried having the usb stick in the front and back ports when I power on.  The files were in the root directory with nothing else on the drive.

1. Try to format the stick on Linux just to be totally sure.

2. Have you tried plugin in the stick after scope boot?

I know it's not what the manual says but it was the only way I managed to upgrade my DS1052E...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nez on May 23, 2018, 09:11:53 am
For those who have issues with the OS update:

Did you make sure the 4 files match the screenshot in the update instructions?

With the USB stick plugged in, if you go to any save/load/update function, are the files on the stick properly displayed on the scope?

The 4 files match in name, timestamp, and file size as those shown in the instructions pdf file.

Also, I can save screenshots to the usb stick while it's plugged in with the 'Print' button, and see the file system (for example when I installed the firmware).  See attached screenshot showing the 4 files, and the folder holding the screenshots that was created automatically.

Hitting the 'Print' button while in the System Status page won't take a screenshot for me on the device (nothing happens), but the Software Version is as shown in my previous post, and my Hardware Version is "01-03".


1. Try to format the stick on Linux just to be totally sure.

2. Have you tried plugin in the stick after scope boot?

I know it's not what the manual says but it was the only way I managed to upgrade my DS1052E...

I only have Windows available at the moment, so I can't try formatting through linux. Sorry!  It is an 8GB drive formatted as Fat32.

I've tried inserting the usb stick while the scope was powered off, and also while it was on and then rebooting it.  Same result either way for the OS not installing.  The firmware installed fine through the normal Utility menu on the scope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 23, 2018, 09:34:58 am
As a note/addition I installed the FW and then OS from a freshly formatted and only 512 MB USB stick.

So it's confirmed that we can do it in any order we like.
Not entirely sure as some of the improvements you've listed in the Review thread I've not seen yet. More study needed. Got to whip out and get another shipment so it'll be later before I look at this all in detail.
Like Arny, I'll be back.  :)

Please don't alienate the folks here ;)

Verifying the listed fixes/improvements is a completely different matter and I will certainly take a closer look at them soon - even though I generally have very little time right now.

Whenever the system status displays 7.1.6.1.25R1 as the software version, then this proves that both (OS and FW) updates have worked okay. No further confirmation needed.
Yep. it's all good.

Not sure what you guys are doing to not have success and HW version is immaterial to success. I've done 2 units the oldest being a beta unit with SN# 0012 and another built ~4 weeks back. Downgrade to 20R1 and back to 25R1 with no probs. It doesn't even seen to matter which order to do it either, OS first or FW first.
It does help to have a USB stick with LED indication so you know the processes are happening. Just be patient and let it happen.
I've been using 2 USB sticks both FAT formatted, one 8G and another 512M.

Other than to try downloading again and/or another USB stick I have nothing else to suggest, sorry.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 23, 2018, 09:48:21 am
For me this confirms that the USB-stick and its formatting is fine and I cannot think of any reason why the automatic OS update wouldn't work.

I've dropped Siglent a note - hopefully they can come up with some more suggestions, but I guess they would have to be able to reproduce the issue, which might be a problem.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 23, 2018, 09:53:20 am
For me this confirms that the USB-stick and its formatting is fine and I cannot think of any reason why the automatic OS update wouldn't work.
One possibility is inserting the OS upgrade without the DSO OFF. Instruction clearly states it should be and then after inserted power ON. It'll reboot a time or two but when finished stop at the normal display.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 23, 2018, 09:58:32 am
For me this confirms that the USB-stick and its formatting is fine and I cannot think of any reason why the automatic OS update wouldn't work.
One possibility is inserting the OS upgrade without the DSO OFF. Instruction clearly states it should be and then after inserted power ON. It'll reboot a time or two but when finished stop at the normal display.

As I understand it, member "nez" has already tried that...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on May 23, 2018, 11:30:14 am
I only have Windows available at the moment, so I can't try formatting through linux. Sorry!  It is an 8GB drive formatted as Fat32.

I've tried inserting the usb stick while the scope was powered off, and also while it was on and then rebooting it.  Same result either way for the OS not installing.  The firmware installed fine through the normal Utility menu on the scope.

OK. Linux formatting would be a "remote" possibility.

My last suggestion is:

Format the stick with FAT. Ensure that the scope recognizes the stick and save some files (captures) from the scope to the stick.

Then, power off the scope, remove the stick and copy the 4 files to the stick as the manual says (don't remove the captures).

Ensure that you are doing clean ejections from Win.

Insert in the scope and power on.

Also, check with some hash prog that the files you have in the stick have the correct hash (crc32 is enough).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: cardre on May 23, 2018, 11:48:37 am
The 4 files match in name, timestamp, and file size as those shown in the instructions pdf file.

Hmm, not sure they do exactly match the sizes. Maybe try downloading a fresh copy of the OS file, possibly with a different browser, if you have one available (Chrome, Firefox) just to be sure. Then try again.

I updated mine successfully and did the firmware first then OS second. Apparently though the order is not important.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 23, 2018, 12:04:18 pm
Okay, I just got a reply from Siglent and they would like to know the result when a different USB stick is used.

As unlikely as it seems to me, there aren't many possibilities left, so you should definitely try a different USB stick, preferably a different brand as well. maybe you could also provide the information what you actually use.

I would also strongly consider the advice given by cadre above. Corrupted files would certainly prevent the update process.

EDIT: oh yes, and tv84's suggestion should be considered as well ...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 23, 2018, 12:13:47 pm
I updated mine successfully and did the firmware first then OS second. Apparently though the order is not important.

Please let us know whether the new custom probes fit your needs, once you've tried it out.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Old Printer on May 23, 2018, 01:00:55 pm
My next serious purchase is an entry level 4 ch scope. I have been closely watching offerings from Rigol, Siglent and GW Instek. I have to say, I am impressed with the communication and response from Siglent. New release bugs and questions about how quickly they would be addressed were probably the most negative comments about these two new scopes. So far I am impressed with Siglent's effort to get this done quickly and with an open mind as to requested changes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on May 23, 2018, 05:26:12 pm
- Kingston data traveler 100 G3 32Gb: no way to get it works
- Transcend SD card 8Gb with USB adapter: work at first try
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: radiolistener on May 23, 2018, 06:02:04 pm
New release bugs and questions about how quickly they would be addressed were probably the most negative comments about these two new scopes. So far I am impressed with Siglent's effort to get this done quickly and with an open mind as to requested changes.

On 8 Febrary 2018 I sent the issue about signal distortions (which was added in the latest firmware for SDS1102X) to Siglent Support.
But there is still no fix for this annoying bug. And I still stay with old firmware where this bug is missing.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nctnico on May 23, 2018, 06:06:53 pm
New release bugs and questions about how quickly they would be addressed were probably the most negative comments about these two new scopes. So far I am impressed with Siglent's effort to get this done quickly and with an open mind as to requested changes.
On 8 Febrary 2018 I sent the issue about signal distortions (which was added in the latest firmware for SDS1102X) to Siglent Support.
But there is still no fix for this annoying bug. And I still stay with old firmware where this bug is missing.
People make a lot of noise and praise new firmware releases but they fail to realise they bought a flawed device to begin with, not all bugs are fixed and some bugs may never be fixed.  :palm:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on May 24, 2018, 11:08:13 am
Noob question: the siglent and root passwords of this scope (new OS) are known?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 24, 2018, 11:11:20 am
Noob question: the siglent and root passwords of this scope (new OS) are known?
One would guess they're the same as they've always been. I know not otherwise.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Old Printer on May 24, 2018, 03:32:01 pm
New release bugs and questions about how quickly they would be addressed were probably the most negative comments about these two new scopes. So far I am impressed with Siglent's effort to get this done quickly and with an open mind as to requested changes.
On 8 Febrary 2018 I sent the issue about signal distortions (which was added in the latest firmware for SDS1102X) to Siglent Support.
But there is still no fix for this annoying bug. And I still stay with old firmware where this bug is missing.
People make a lot of noise and praise new firmware releases but they fail to realise they bought a flawed device to begin with, not all bugs are fixed and some bugs may never be fixed.  :palm:

I understand what you are saying, but this may be the new "normal" in this class of scope. Releasing "rough" product seems to be a trend. Time will tell if someone can release a polished product with these specs and at this price point. If not, hobbyists may well be willing to be a part of the development process, and live with some unfixable  bugs that professional users would not stand for, all in the name of price.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nez on May 25, 2018, 04:52:17 am
Okay, I just got a reply from Siglent and they would like to know the result when a different USB stick is used.

As unlikely as it seems to me, there aren't many possibilities left, so you should definitely try a different USB stick, preferably a different brand as well. maybe you could also provide the information what you actually use.

I would also strongly consider the advice given by cadre above. Corrupted files would certainly prevent the update process.

EDIT: oh yes, and tv84's suggestion should be considered as well ...

Ok, I made sure the files were fine and tried a different usb stick, a Kingston DataTraveler 8GB I just bought rather than the junky no-name stick I had available previously (a free handout, from a convention or something).

With the new usb stick, the OS updated successfully right away.

Thanks all for the various suggestions to troubleshoot!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on May 25, 2018, 09:46:02 am
With the new usb stick, the OS updated successfully right away.

Thanks all for the various suggestions to troubleshoot!

nez,

Please read https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdm3045x-boot-hang/msg1565089/#msg1565089 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdm3045x-boot-hang/msg1565089/#msg1565089) and provide us with your 2 USB controllers info.

The one that didn't work and the one that worked.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on May 26, 2018, 03:18:58 am
Hello,

First thing that I noticed in the newest firmware is that AC trigger level indicator is still missing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Added later:  I have no clue how the fix of IC2 bug passed QA test and was added into the new firmware but this is what we get now:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=441550;image)

1) what is that suffix 'A' doing in the hex output  (before they used H)?
2) what is the point in using the prefix '0x' and the suffix (I assume Siglent meant 'H' but ended up with 'A' due to some strange reasons)? If you want to save space then either use the prefix or the suffix but not both because the screen is small and space is precious. I would say - use  none, since after I  have set the format to 'Hex' I don't need any reminders/hints embedded into the data  since I am shown what I asked for - the hexadecimal data;
3) it is a nice idea to have a dedicated window to show the missing part of the string although I would implement it differently. Anyway, I would be happy with it too but just look at the last hex number in the first line (19A) and the first hex number in the second line (1BA) - the guys lost 0x1A or 1AH (a matter of taste);
4)again, I think consistency is important. Look at the last hex number in the packet (it's 0x1F) displayed in the 'Long Data' window - it is there. Now look at the SDA and SCL lines, the end of the packet - 0x1F is there. Now look at the decoded data (the line at the bottom of the screen) - the last part is  '0AA 0' - it must be 0x1F and nothing else to be synchronized with other data.

I think I will downgrade the firmware for now.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: iMo on May 26, 2018, 06:30:18 am
Quote
I understand what you are saying, but this may be the new "normal" in this class of scope. Releasing "rough" product seems to be a trend.
Releasing a "rough product" is a trend today everywhere, indeed. It is the result of the new "Agile mindset" especially with the sw community, which considers a "waterfall" sw development project approach obsolete.
Moreover, the number of sw developers involved in this kind of products is rather small, my guess is the number of sw developers who actually mess with the above stuff at Rigol or Siglent is 1.53 in average.
Soon or later their willingness to provide fast fixes will decline, as the number of newly introduced bugs will be higher than the number of bugs fixed..
PS: I saw that with the largest IT internationals I worked with in past. The staffing ratio of their hw_developers:sw_developers:sales&marketing people with their strategic products was typically 4:1:20000 world-wide..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 26, 2018, 07:13:21 am
First thing that I noticed in the newest firmware is that AC trigger level indicator is still missing.
Okay, that doesn’t surprise me as there was absolutely no evidence we would get that at all, let alone for this intermediate update. Yet I’ll ask for once why this request is persistently ignored.

Added later:  I have no clue how the fix of IC2 bug passed QA test and was added into the new firmware but this is what we get now:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=441550;image)

First let me say thank you for trying out the new IIC decoder and documenting its issues so thoroughly. I’m really sad to see this mess.

1) what is that suffix 'A' doing in the hex output  (before they used H)?
2) what is the point in using the prefix '0x' and the suffix (I assume Siglent meant 'H' but ended up with 'A' due to some strange reasons)? If you want to save space then either use the prefix or the suffix but not both because the screen is small and space is precious. I would say - use  none, since after I  have set the format to 'Hex' I don't need any reminders/hints embedded into the data  since I am shown what I asked for - the hexadecimal data;
It is quite obvious that the decoder is messed up. The ‘0x’ doesn’t belong there and the ‘A’ should be ‘H’. I think a (non capital!) ‘h’ suffix might still be useful to clearly indicate the numeric format used when taking screenshots.

3) it is a nice idea to have a dedicated window to show the missing part of the string although I would implement it differently. Anyway, I would be happy with it too but just look at the last hex number in the first line (19A) and the first hex number in the second line (1BA) - the guys lost 0x1A or 1AH (a matter of taste);
Yes, the text doesn’t quite fit the window width.
How would you implement it?

4)again, I think consistency is important. Look at the last hex number in the packet (it's 0x1F) displayed in the 'Long Data' window - it is there. Now look at the SDA and SCL lines, the end of the packet - 0x1F is there. Now look at the decoded data (the line at the bottom of the screen) - the last part is  '0AA 0' - it must be 0x1F and nothing else to be synchronized with other data.
 
It is quite obvious that the packet is severely misaligned and truncated in the bottom decoding line. You get the first 11 bytes at a wrong position – and a red dot at the right end of the bracket, indicating that there is more data – how true.

What happens if you zoom out? Is the bottom decoder line still misaligned and/or truncated?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on May 26, 2018, 08:14:08 am

It is quite obvious that the decoder is messed up. The ‘0x’ doesn’t belong there and the ‘A’ should be ‘H’. I think a (non capital!) ‘h’ suffix might still be useful to clearly indicate the numeric format used when taking screenshots.

What a mess.

0x belongs there, (example here data 00) in first place as 0x00. It tell that it is hex. 0x is standard method for tell data is in hex format. Without any exeption.
Also it is enough in this case it show it with first byte. After then who do not understand next bytes are something other than hex. I can not imagine any. So after each data there do not need anything for tell every byte it is hex. User have selected hex and first 0x also show it if some other people look only image.

It can be as in image example: 0x00 01 02 03 04 05 06..... etc. It is totally stupid waste of tiny resources if add H or h or what ever after every data byte.  if 0xdd (dd=data)  in fisrt place do not make clear to everyone that displayed data is hex..... unprintable.

For Siglent: Just remove these stupidities (H and now accidentally this weird A) from displayed data string. Without any question. No one miss these waste of display area. First place 0x tell hex is in use. If one who use serial decoder do not understand 0x it is not scope manufacturer problem at all. Period.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 26, 2018, 08:50:05 am
It can be as in image example: 0x00 01 02 03 04 05 06..... etc. It is totally stupid waste of tiny resources if add H or h or what ever after every data byte.  if 0xdd (dd=data)  in fisrt place do not make clear to everyone that displayed data is hex..... unprintable.

I fully agree.

I just didn't think that far when I posted my last reply. After the huge disappointment about this quite obviously totally untested piece of code I would just have been happy to get the previous appearance back.

Now I begin to understand - have you suggested that change? And the attempt to implement it produced the mess we have now?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nctnico on May 26, 2018, 08:50:32 am
 :palm: The A stands for 'Acknowledge' of the I2C bus. There will probably an 'N' or '~A' for not-acknowledge .
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kerouanton on May 26, 2018, 11:05:55 am
I fully agree too.

0x at the beginning of the string to remind it's hex, and the rest using just 2 hex-digit pairs.


By the way, I'm fitting my hobby lab with the full range of Siglent equipment (PSU, Scope, SA, Meter, FuncGen), and noticed a few bugs/issues for example on the SA32xx. Is this forum a good way to let Siglent know about those issues in the hope they will profide fixes?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on May 26, 2018, 02:02:21 pm
Siglent could use GREEN for ACK, RED for NACK and use lower case 'h', 'd', 'a' at the end of the data to indicate HEX, DECIMAL, ASCII
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 26, 2018, 08:32:07 pm
I fully agree too.

0x at the beginning of the string to remind it's hex, and the rest using just 2 hex-digit pairs.


By the way, I'm fitting my hobby lab with the full range of Siglent equipment (PSU, Scope, SA, Meter, FuncGen), and noticed a few bugs/issues for example on the SA32xx. Is this forum a good way to let Siglent know about those issues in the hope they will profide fixes?
Certainly, some members here have close contact with Siglent and have been/are beta testers for their products.
There are primary threads for any of their products that forum Search can find and they're the best place to ask.
The SSA's are a complex instrument for the hobbyist and many users produce results they have trouble understanding but some study of this often linked KS AN gives good guidance for SSA use:
Keysight AN-150
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdf)

Main SSA thread that maybe you can find the problem you see already discussed.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 27, 2018, 02:34:00 am
After installing FW 25R1 and a post by Performa01 about the updated Webserver I'd better take a look at it.
Mentioned here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1555936/#msg1555936 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1555936/#msg1555936)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/?action=dlattach;attach=438190;image)

What an improvement, it was not bad before but now it rocks.  :)
You're first greeted with a welcome homepage that lists scope model, SN#, FW series, IP and some further info.
From this webrowser tab welcome landing page select the 'Instrument control' icon to see this:
Captured from the browser Screen Save icon:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=442195)


It fills ~1/2 the page and near the frequency counter there's a small tab/icon arrow to expand or retract a virtual front panel UI to the page and allow full remote control for the instrument. (see top image)
A second small icon near the lower right of the display sets only the scope display to full screen and will serve as a perfect means to get the display onto a projector or big screen for classroom or conference usage.
You can see both the tabs/icons in the first image.
ESC returns the display to the normal browser tab view. In full screen mode on this Win7 laptop there's no UI, borders or task bar....nothing but the scope display.

The scope-PC and PC-scope control/display/update latency is quite low.....blink and you've missed it and at almost real time. Monitoring link usage (WiFi) reveals normal BW usage of ~3MB/s with peaks to 5 MB/s.

Overall it looks like an excellent cheap solution for scope based demos, presentations or group usage on a big display

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on May 27, 2018, 03:09:13 am
:palm: The A stands for 'Acknowledge' of the I2C bus. There will probably an 'N' or '~A' for not-acknowledge .

That's true, so what? My crystal ball is broken therefore I am not good at guessing today. But what I know for sure is this:  the previous version of the firmware did not use 'A' for 'ACK' simply because it did not. The I2C data flow decoded by the previous version of the firmware:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=442207;image)

People who know that I2C 'ACK' is can clearly see if it is present in the last packet, I zoomed in on purpose. I don't see any 'A' or anything wrong other than missing data in the table and kind of confusingly incomplete bottom line displaying the decoded data (I think it is kind of hard to implement it right do to several reasons but doable).

Now look at this picture, the same I2C data flow is decoded by the latest firmware: the difference is big, right?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=441550;image)

And if Siglent, all of a sudden, decided to use 'A' for 'ACK' ok, fine they have to tell us about it or there will be misunderstanding. But I would not vote for that because 'ACK' will be seen most of the time and showing nothing if 'ACK' is present (the prev. firmware) tells the user as much as the added the suffix 'A' to each byte.

Just my 0.2 cents
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on May 27, 2018, 03:31:53 am
What happens if you zoom out? Is the bottom decoder line still misaligned and/or truncated?

Zooming does not fix the problem with the bottom decoder line.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on May 27, 2018, 08:26:10 am
I really like this scope but there are 2 things that I find a little strange..

1- why I can see only 4 measurements?? to me it's not enough especially on a 4ch scope. I know that I see all the measurements at the same time, but I can't see 4 measure of 2 channels at the same time for example.
2- when I hit the circle button on the left for hiding the menu why also the measures disappears? can't we use the menu buttons space for more measurements when the menu is hidden?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 27, 2018, 09:42:30 am
I really like this scope but there are 2 things that I find a little strange..

1- why I can see only 4 measurements?? to me it's not enough especially on a 4ch scope. I know that I see all the measurements at the same time, but I can't see 4 measure of 2 channels at the same time for example.
2- when I hit the circle button on the left for hiding the menu why also the measures disappears? can't we use the menu buttons space for more measurements when the menu is hidden?
In the Measure menu, select Statistics and then adjust Transparency in the Display menu for best viewing.
This way you can display many parameters without impacting on the displayed waveform/s.
The Stats list will also jump down into the Menu space at the foot of the display when menus are hidden.

Eg:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=428152)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on May 27, 2018, 03:23:35 pm
I really like this scope but there are 2 things that I find a little strange..

1- why I can see only 4 measurements?? to me it's not enough especially on a 4ch scope. I know that I see all the measurements at the same time, but I can't see 4 measure of 2 channels at the same time for example.
2- when I hit the circle button on the left for hiding the menu why also the measures disappears? can't we use the menu buttons space for more measurements when the menu is hidden?
In the Measure menu, select Statistics and then adjust Transparency in the Display menu for best viewing.
This way you can display many parameters without impacting on the displayed waveform/s.
The Stats list will also jump down into the Menu space at the foot of the display when menus are hidden.

Eg:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=428152)

in this way, only 5 measurements and relative statistic are showed. why not show the classic measurements in this window like? 4 rows, one for each channel and 5-6 selectable measurements per channels?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kerouanton on May 27, 2018, 09:12:30 pm

The SSA's are a complex instrument for the hobbyist and many users produce results they have trouble understanding but some study of this often linked KS AN gives good guidance for SSA use:
Keysight AN-150
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdf)

Thanks for the link, good document.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on May 28, 2018, 12:42:36 pm
After updating to the latest firmware and os version I can no longer connect to the remote panel/control interface.
I can connect to the instrument main web page, but when I click the Instrument Control icon a get a black page with a red error: WebSock error: [object Event]

Tested in Linux with both Firefox and Chrome (latest versions available).

Anyone experiencing the same problem?  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on May 28, 2018, 01:59:31 pm
Just noticed the information in the main web page are wrong/missing... I guess my update didn't go as expected  :o
Is there any way to force a full system factory reset? Maybe resetting all options to default could solve the problem...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on May 28, 2018, 09:18:13 pm
I'm thinking in buying this scope but, in the meantime, a couple of questions:  ;)

- Has anyone upgraded from 100Mhz to 200MHz by software?
- Is there any menu where we can insert license codes?

Anyone interested can have a look at the latest version's decrypted ZIP file: on request

sds1000b.app is an .ELF that everyone can look at. Plenty of identifiable functions  ;D .

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 28, 2018, 09:33:38 pm
I'm thinking in buying this scope but, in the meantime, a couple of questions:  ;)

- Is there any menu where we can insert license codes?

Yes, in the Utilities menu and then the Options sub menu, then Install menu where 16 digit hexadecimal permanent licensing code is installed for each option.
They are all already active for 30 free trial usages.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on May 29, 2018, 03:22:15 am
Anyone interested can have a look at the latest version's decrypted ZIP file: SDS1004X_E_6.1.25R1.ZIP (https://cld.pt/dl/download/4945cdec-ea16-493c-8603-74374e8a14fd/SDS1004X_E_6.1.25R1.zip)

"An error occurred during a connection to cld.pt. You have received an invalid certificate. Please contact the server administrator or email correspondent and give them the following information: Your certificate contains the same serial number as another certificate issued by the certificate authority. Please get a new certificate containing a unique serial number. Error code: SEC_ERROR_REUSED_ISSUER_AND_SERIAL"
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on May 29, 2018, 09:56:08 am
Yes, in the Utilities menu and then the Options sub menu, then Install menu where 16 digit hexadecimal permanent licensing code is installed for each option.
They are all already active for 30 free trial usages.

Please share a printscreen of that menu.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 29, 2018, 12:01:28 pm
"An error occurred during a connection to cld.pt. You have received an invalid certificate. Please contact the server administrator or email correspondent and give them the following information: Your certificate contains the same serial number as another certificate issued by the certificate authority. Please get a new certificate containing a unique serial number. Error code: SEC_ERROR_REUSED_ISSUER_AND_SERIAL"

I've just checked and I have no problem downloading the zip. Anyone else has the prob? The link is perfectly valid.

I've just downloaded it and everything is fine. Thank you!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Old Printer on May 29, 2018, 03:22:52 pm
Anyone interested can have a look at the latest version's decrypted ZIP file: SDS1004X_E_6.1.25R1.ZIP (https://cld.pt/dl/download/4945cdec-ea16-493c-8603-74374e8a14fd/SDS1004X_E_6.1.25R1.zip)

"An error occurred during a connection to cld.pt. You have received an invalid certificate. Please contact the server administrator or email correspondent and give them the following information: Your certificate contains the same serial number as another certificate issued by the certificate authority. Please get a new certificate containing a unique serial number. Error code: SEC_ERROR_REUSED_ISSUER_AND_SERIAL"

I just downloaded it and scanned it with Norton. Everything A OK. Thanks. Now I just need to buy the scope :)  It is my primary choice right now, but still looking as I am in no particular rush.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on May 29, 2018, 06:44:25 pm
"An error occurred during a connection to cld.pt. You have received an invalid certificate. Please contact the server administrator or email
I've just checked and I have no problem downloading the zip. Anyone else has the prob? The link is perfectly valid.

I think it is a firewall related problem.

I am pretty much sure that the bandwidth is software controlled parameters because I will not be surprised if one finds something like  "xxx_bandwidth_update_license", "xxx_app_pro_bw_if_license_match_bw", etc.

Most likely, one can also finds the references to the files
/usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0/options_awg_license.txt 
/usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0/options_wifi_license.txt 
/usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0/options_mso_license.txt

And I will not be surprised if those files also attracts someone's attention

/usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/options_awg_times.txt
usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/options_wifi_times.txt
/usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/options_mso_times.txt

There are might be also some bizarre strings in the license checking code like  "XXNEr:PRODuction:MODE"  which may imply that there is some sort of  testing mode unlocking everything and used for testing during production.

Just saying. And a question just out of curiosity.  Let's say one would want to try this unpacked firmware on the real hardware, how he would do that? As far as I know the builtin update procedure accepts only ads files.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on May 29, 2018, 08:22:02 pm
Just saying. And a question just out of curiosity.  Let's say one would want to try this unpacked firmware on the real hardware, how he would do that? As far as I know the builtin update procedure accepts only ads files.

That I'm aware of, at least, some people can repack Siglent .ADS packages. That's not an issue.

And this one is specially simple since you only have to encode a ZIP file.

But I expect that since one has telnet access to the equipment the changes could be done through telnet. At least for investigation purposes.

Just saying...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on May 29, 2018, 11:13:52 pm
I have a strange feeling  that Siglent most likely will not to behave like Rigol and tolerate 'customization' of the firmware. I will not be surprised if they properly obfuscate their code as soon as an opportunity presents itself. And as a result one will not find any of those self explanatory strings in the next build of the firmware.
At the same time I do hope that they will have time and ability to fix the I2C decoder instead of being distracted by the necessity to deal with the aforementioned modifications.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 30, 2018, 07:26:28 am
Just noticed the information in the main web page are wrong/missing... I guess my update didn't go as expected  :o
Is there any way to force a full system factory reset? Maybe resetting all options to default could solve the problem...

Sorry to hear you're having some troubles. Have you been able to sort it out by now?

I have no idea what's going wrong here, but if the System Status in the UTILITY menu shows the correct software version 7.1.6.1.25R1, then I would suspect that the problem is located outside the scope (LAN connection, browser).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on May 30, 2018, 07:50:21 am
Quote
Sorry to hear you're having some troubles. Have you been able to sort it out by now?

Thanks  ^-^   I've sent a report of the problem to the Italian seller an they promptly forwarded it to Siglent  :-+
I'll keep the forum updated for sure.

Quote
then I would suspect that the problem is located outside the scope (LAN connection, browser

Was my first thought too, but the result is the same on different browsers in linux and windows.
Also the fact that in the instrument information web page does not show serial number and software version lets me suspect that it could be
a filesystem issue.
Maybe a corrupted lighttpd configuration file or something similar. The fs used is ubifs, which is the de-facto standard for reliability and
and stability for embedded linux systems. But it has a really long dirty files commit time, so sometimes if you poweroff the system before all files
where flushed it could truncate/delete that file. I'm guessing some configuration was auto generated at first boot and was not saved
before I powered off the scope.
But those are only my personal speculations based on my experience with that type of fs.

Let's see what Siglent will say
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 30, 2018, 08:57:05 am
Yes, in the Utilities menu and then the Options sub menu, then Install menu where 16 digit hexadecimal permanent licensing code is installed for each option.
They are all already active for 30 free trial usages.

Please share a printscreen of that menu.
For you pleasure.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 30, 2018, 09:57:37 am
Just noticed the information in the main web page are wrong/missing... I guess my update didn't go as expected  :o
Is there any way to force a full system factory reset? Maybe resetting all options to default could solve the problem...
I've seen the same info missing but only when the IP in the scope isn't properly configured.

Try these steps.
For Windows, run cmd then command ipconfig for your PC's IP address.

Scope:
DHCP OFF
Enter the Gateway IP and Subnet Mask into the IP Set in the scope.
Choose an IP for the scope within the range of valid addresses on your network.(top/first IP box)
Eg 192.168.0.53
Save all.
Use this last IP entered as the address for/in your browser to connect to the scope.



Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on May 30, 2018, 10:29:18 am
I've seen the same info missing but only when the IP in the scope isn't properly configured.

Tanks for the info. Didn't mention it but I already tried disabling DHCP and setting a never-used IP outside of my DHCP scope.
Same result, missing info and error message in control page.

I've also tried to update the scope again with the same OS update, although I don't know if it was really applied or skipped due to same version.

I guess I can also try to downgrade and re-upgrade the OS but I think I'll wait Siglent response.
Thankfully all other functions of the scope seem unaffected and I can live without remote control for now.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 30, 2018, 11:42:48 am
I guess I can also try to downgrade and re-upgrade the OS but I think I'll wait Siglent response.
Thankfully all other functions of the scope seem unaffected and I can live without remote control for now.

Not sure whether you've got a response already. Just in case you have not:

I've asked the status of the issue (figured my direct contacts should work quicker than the distributor + tech support chain) and learned the following:

Siglent have identified the problem. The new version isn't compatible with all the previous ones. There will be a new package release soon that will fix that.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on May 30, 2018, 04:19:21 pm
I've asked the status of the issue (figured my direct contacts should work quicker than the distributor + tech support chain) and learned the following:
Siglent have identified the problem. The new version isn't compatible with all the previous ones. There will be a new package release soon that will fix that.

Thanks a lot Performa01, that was very kind of you   :-+

I'll wait for the update then. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Giuss on June 04, 2018, 03:56:59 pm
I haven't updated yet, so I'll wait the next release
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on June 04, 2018, 04:36:58 pm
Well, I would guess if you update to the 20R1 firmware prior to attempting the update to 25R1 then everything should work fine. It's only some older firmware versions where there's a compatibility issue. At least I had absolutely no troubles updating from 7.6.1.20R1 to 7.6.1.25R1 and I think the same is true for all the others who made this update step. The only other issues have been with the OS update when using incompatible flash drives.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on June 05, 2018, 09:06:29 am
Everyone who had compatibility issues with the latest firmware update, please find the corrected package for V7.6.1.25R2 here:

https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/6422/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/6422/)

EDIT: Siglent seems to have done their homework. There's a lot more fixes than just the broken remote control:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on June 05, 2018, 09:13:27 am
I also see various bug fixes form R1!!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on June 05, 2018, 09:46:52 am
'I' for Invert.
Updated screenshot.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=448618)

OK Siglent, good stuff.  :-+
Now please add some of this to SDS1202X-E, er no, actually all SDS****X models.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on June 05, 2018, 10:03:11 am
Custom probe, now adjustable to 6 decimal places and settable to even more than that. Not that more than 3 digits would make much sense, but better too many than too few ;)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=448513;image)
SDS1104X-E_Probe_Custom_Fine
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: iMo on June 05, 2018, 11:15:22 am
In a few months of such an improvement's speed people will finally get their "ideal oscope", it seems :)

Quote
Not that more than 3 digits would make much sense
You are right, those 0.123456789x is something people would not appreciate too much, better to stay with 3 digits and an exponent, say +12..-12 (tera..pico). Best in "Engineering" notation/format..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on June 05, 2018, 11:35:55 am
We certainly get the engineering notation if the factor calls for that:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=448609;image)
SDS1104X-E_Probe_Custom_Fine_Eng

EDIT: Just noticed - have you ever seen such a noise-free trace at 3µV/div?  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: iMo on June 05, 2018, 11:43:49 am
Examples:
Code: [Select]
1.23 x
123 x
1.23E-3 x
12.3E12 x
-235 x
-2.35E6 x
-23.5E-9 x
-235E-12 x
..
These coefficients must not be related to the "probe attenuation or gain" but generally to a "measurement". For example you may watch an waveform at the -2.5V/100pA output of your DIY pico-ampermeter, with stock 10x probe. So you will dial "-2.50E-9 x" in.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kerouanton on June 05, 2018, 01:36:54 pm
Can't wait having mine... it's in transit, should have it in a couple of days, with the LA option  :)
And funny enough, my old Hameg 205-3 just "died" 2 days ago, leaving me with a crap DS-203 as my "main" scope (better than nothing). Already repaired it a couple of times but this time it's the CRT and I don't have a high voltage probe. So far so best.

Siglent does seem to do a good job at fixing their software, that's good sign.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on June 05, 2018, 04:18:00 pm
Just installed the latest update and I can confirm it solves the issues with the remote panel not being accessible.
Now everything works as expected!

I have to say that I'm really pleased with Siglent response and attitude  :-+

Thanks to Performa01 and simone.pignatti for your help  ^-^
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on June 06, 2018, 12:54:31 am
Using the 4ch 4 different probes setup from a few posts back I shot a very basic vid showing remote display responsiveness for possible any big screen or projector presentation use/needs.
SDS1104X-E webserver via WiFi to laptop which in turn is connected to a VGA 18" monitor. Took only a minute or two to setup.
Done from my phone so nothing flash, just a quick demo.
~50s

https://youtu.be/W30AqcDQL18
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on June 06, 2018, 05:34:21 am
The latest 25R2 firmware update fixed the problem with I2C decoder and a strange suffixes. Now it can display long strings (it looks a bit bizarre though due to the strange padding but none of data is truncated now).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=449074;image)







It is still  not possible to display the long data correctly at the string located at the bottom of the screen, you will never see the end of the decoded data of the packet longer than 30 bytes simply because Siglent does not allow to scroll the bottom string to the left - the first decoded byte must be always visible (but why?) and therefore most they can show is 30 hexadecimal bytes.  Not  a big deal for me. May be one day they will fix it simply to be not just  "really good" but "almost perfect"  8)



(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=449080;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=449086;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=449092;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Giuss on June 06, 2018, 05:49:00 pm
I've completed the update without any problem, everything works and the webserver is very nice now

Thank you for your support
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kerouanton on June 06, 2018, 09:56:32 pm
It seems that Siglent fixed that I2C display issue quite quickly. That's enthusiatic.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rstofer on June 07, 2018, 04:09:38 am
Using the 4ch 4 different probes setup from a few posts back I shot a very basic vid showing remote display responsiveness for possible any big screen or projector presentation use/needs.
SDS1104X-E webserver via WiFi to laptop which in turn is connected to a VGA 18" monitor. Took only a minute or two to setup.
Done from my phone so nothing flash, just a quick demo.
~50s


Thanks for that!  I just happen to have some 27" monitors on my PCs, a perfect size for old people.

That scope is looking better and better.  One of these days I'll have to buy the SDS1204X-E.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on June 07, 2018, 05:36:24 am
Using the 4ch 4 different probes setup from a few posts back I shot a very basic vid showing remote display responsiveness for possible any big screen or projector presentation use/needs.
SDS1104X-E webserver via WiFi to laptop which in turn is connected to a VGA 18" monitor. Took only a minute or two to setup.
Done from my phone so nothing flash, just a quick demo.
~50s


Thanks for that!  I just happen to have some 27" monitors on my PCs, a perfect size for old people.

That scope is looking better and better.  One of these days I'll have to buy the SDS1204X-E.
Thank you.
Yes there's nothing like a small video to show the real responsiveness.
That was just really to demonstrate how they can easily be used for presentation purposes, something that you'd ordinarily need to spend a lot more $ to achieve with a DSO.
You've probably seen screenshots webserver remote UI and that's quite excellent too and full control can be done with a mouse.......maybe another simple video coming........but with a small digital camera instead of shaky damn phone.

When I communicated with rf-loop shortly before these were released, the phrase 'hardcore' he used alerted me to how good these really could be, even though I'd beta tested one and had some idea this was the case myself.
His words based on his vast experience are proving correct.

They're certainly very well featured for the money and very few won't be surprised of how capable they are. For the 'first DSO' buyer these are truly a scope you can grow into by adding further functionality options when you need them.
It's certainly the best value for money we've seen from Siglent as yet.

Yeah I know.......sales blurb and all that, but look hard at other offerings and those that can really see will see what owners do too.
Also thanks to those that have given the valuable feedback for Siglent to improve these DSO's to what they have become.  :clap:  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on June 08, 2018, 08:27:56 pm
Siglent USA have done a short video on the webserver.
Some explanation on the improvements, usage and further improvements to come.
https://www.siglentamerica.com/video/x-e-4-channel-web-browser-update-this-thing-is-fast/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/video/x-e-4-channel-web-browser-update-this-thing-is-fast/)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Pannenkoek_met_een_lampje on June 09, 2018, 03:25:53 pm
Can anyone please tell:


me if this is a known bug?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/strange-behaviour-of-siglent-sds1104x-e/new/#new (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/strange-behaviour-of-siglent-sds1104x-e/new/#new)

Sorry for the separate thread, do I need to ask things like that in this thread?

thank you all
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on June 09, 2018, 07:50:15 pm
Looking into the SDS1000X-E fw, one can see that the 250Mhz and 300Mhz is a possibility (in sw terms, at least).

So that would mean a SDS1254X-E or SDS1304X-E only would lack a proper "logo".   :popcorn:

And that would match what I've read in this thread that Siglent has 300Mhz probes in the inventory.

If anyone wants to test these bandwidths...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: toli on June 09, 2018, 08:06:37 pm
considering the fact its will go down to 500MSPS when both channels on the same AFE are active, 200MHz is about the maximum. You could go higher when only a single channel is active (at 1GSPS), but then there's a need to add this LPF back to avoid aliasing with more channel active. Would be interesting to see if its implemented this way   ;D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: radiolistener on June 09, 2018, 10:02:24 pm
Looking into the SDS1000X-E fw, one can see that the 250Mhz and 300Mhz is a possibility (in sw terms, at least).

Here is screenshot of 100 MHz square wave with 1 ns rise time. I got it with my 100 MHz SDS1102X:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=452380;image)

The Rise time is measured as 1.70 ns, it corresponds to the bandwidth = 0.35 / 1.7 ns = 205.8 MHz   :popcorn:

And here is even more - 290 MHz square wave with 1 ns rise time:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=452386;image)

The Rise time is measured as 1.02 ns. The bandwidth = 0.35 / 1.02 = 343.1 MHz...  :bullshit:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on June 10, 2018, 02:55:19 am
Looking into the SDS1000X-E fw, one can see that the 250Mhz and 300Mhz is a possibility (in sw terms, at least).

Here is screenshot of 100 MHz square wave with 1 ns rise time. I got it with my 100 MHz SDS1102X:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=452380;image)

Very interesting. As far as I know the recent versions of firmware don't provide 50 om Impedance option for SDS1XXX X-E series (1102/1202 - 1104/1204), this menu item has been removed long time ago. Are you running some sort of a very old firmware?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on June 10, 2018, 08:34:00 am
Looking into the SDS1000X-E fw, one can see that the 250Mhz and 300Mhz is a possibility (in sw terms, at least).

Here is screenshot of 100 MHz square wave with 1 ns rise time. I got it with my 100 MHz SDS1102X:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=452380;image)

The Rise time is measured as 1.70 ns, it corresponds to the bandwidth = 0.35 / 1.7 ns = 205.8 MHz   :popcorn:

And here is even more - 290 MHz square wave with 1 ns rise time:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=452386;image)

The Rise time is measured as 1.02 ns. The bandwidth = 0.35 / 1.02 = 343.1 MHz...  :bullshit:
BW is dictated by the -3dB point, nothing else !
Significant signal attenuation is evident once you go past the rated frequency
Some examples:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1553074/#msg1553074 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1553074/#msg1553074)

Looking into the SDS1000X-E fw, one can see that the 250Mhz and 300Mhz is a possibility (in sw terms, at least).

Here is screenshot of 100 MHz square wave with 1 ns rise time. I got it with my 100 MHz SDS1102X:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=452380;image)

Very interesting. As far as I know the recent versions of firmware don't provide 50 om Impedance option for SDS1XXX X-E series (1102/1202 - 1104/1204), this menu item has been removed long time ago. Are you running some sort of a very old firmware?

The SDS1102X that radiolistener has is a different series to X-E and does have 50 ohm inputs.

This model series, 8" display but only 2 channels:
https://www.siglentamerica.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds1000xx-series-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds1000xx-series-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: radiolistener on June 10, 2018, 10:40:37 am
BW is dictated by the -3dB point, nothing else !
Significant signal attenuation is evident once you go past the rated frequency

Actually, the bandwidth is just the reciprocal value of the rise time and it doesn't depends on 3 dB.
The bandwidth and the rise time is just the same value, but expressed in different measurement units  :)

Max 3 dB attenuation is a requirement which must comply within the bandwidth.
Actually, frequency response may be even flat within the bandwidth of oscilloscope.
But it should not exceed 3 dB level, because this is the maximum limit for oscilloscopes.

The issue with the screenshot above is sample rate... it's too small for so high frequency.
There are just 28 points on entire screen and it leads to high measurement error, because there is no way to restore the waveform with sufficient accuracy. In order to get better accuracy, there is need more high sample rate. At least 2 GS/s or even more...

As you can see, there is 1.02 ns measured by oscilloscope. But this is impossible for 100 MHz input circuit. This is definitely measurement error, because input signal is out of range for oscilloscope specification...

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: toli on June 10, 2018, 10:47:52 am
Its actually not completely accurate. This equation you are using of 0.35/rise time is only true if you assume a linear 1st order LPF response. It can be easily extracted from the capacitor charging equation by finding the time difference between 10% to 90% for the exponential function.
While this was true in the past, and might be true for these low cost scopes (although I doubt it is, have to verify their frequency response to do this), this isn't true for modern scopes of higher quality. They will normally have different filters/frequency response to get maximum flatness within the pass band, and then it'll drop much faster. There, this equation isn't true as it no longer behaves like a simple single pole LPF.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: radiolistener on June 10, 2018, 11:24:33 am
this isn't true for modern scopes of higher quality

I know about these modern high-quality oscilloscopes, that use 0.4 instead of 0.35 to determine the bandwidth.
I read their application notes about it.
But I believe this is just a marketing in order to write a little better specs, than it really has.  :-//

There is no term "quality" in mathematics, so you cannot just replace one constant with another...

The rise time doesn't depends on frequency response flatness at all. It depends on sine function.
For example, let's calculate the rise time for sine wave with some frequency.
The rise time should be measured for specific threshold, usually it's 90%.

We need to measure the period of sine wave for value range [-0.9; +0.9]. Where sine wave has value range [-1; +1].
Let's split it on two equal parts [-0.9; 0] and [0; +0.9]. In that form, we can write it as equation:

sin( ω * t ) = 0.9

where t is is a half rise time period and 0.9 is a threshold.
From which we can find that:

t = arcsin( 0.9 ) / ω

So, now we can find rise time:

Rise time = 2 * arcsin( 0.9 ) / ω,

ω = 2 * pi * frequency, so:

Rise time = 2 * arcsin( 0.9 ) / (2 * pi * frequency) = arcsin( 0.9 ) / (pi * frequency) = period * arcsin( 0.9 ) / pi = period * 0.3564337

As you can see there is 0.35 multiplier. But it depends on threshold level.
And you can play with threshold level in order to get "better" specs for marketing purposes and to hide your bad real bandwidth  :)

You can find some pictures here: http://www.hit.bme.hu/~papay/edu/Lab/RiseTime.pdf (http://www.hit.bme.hu/~papay/edu/Lab/RiseTime.pdf)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: toli on June 10, 2018, 12:23:46 pm
Rise time is a measure of response to a step input. For a sin wave input there's no point of talking about rise time, its a single tone and the -3dB BW is all you need there. It is an inverse of the exponential function that describes the capacitor charging for a first order LPF that accounts for the 0.35 value in the equation.
No need to write it again, it can be seen in multiple places online such as this tech note:
https://www.k-state.edu/edl/docs/pubs/technical-resources/Technote2.pdf (https://www.k-state.edu/edl/docs/pubs/technical-resources/Technote2.pdf)
just have a look at (15)-(25).
This is why modern scopes have values of 0.4-0.45, the roll-off of the filters causes it to behave differently than a single pole system. No need to try and put it down to marketing, scopes that use these filters will follow these number quite closely.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: radiolistener on June 10, 2018, 12:48:59 pm
No need to write it again, it can be seen in multiple places online such as this tech note:
https://www.k-state.edu/edl/docs/pubs/technical-resources/Technote2.pdf (https://www.k-state.edu/edl/docs/pubs/technical-resources/Technote2.pdf)
just have a look at (15)-(25).

This is exactly the same as I wrote above. But this is more complicated calculations with ln instead of sin.
But results is exactly the same, for threshold 90% it's also 0.35.

Rise time is just a time period for sine wave from low threshold 10% to high threshold 90%.
Where sine wave has a frequency equals to the bandwidth.

This is why modern scopes have values of 0.4-0.45.

They have the same 0.35 values, because sine function doesn't depends on oscilloscope quality and modern level   :D
But they use a little different threshold level for measurements.
In order to get specification which looks a little better than specs from other manufacturer
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: toli on June 10, 2018, 01:04:12 pm
I don't want to steer this topic too much off course, but this is simply not correct.
When you have multiple poles and zeros in the transfer function, the time domain response in no longer a single simple exponential term, this can be found from the inverse Laplace transform of the frequency domain transfer function. In that case the equations that you try to solve for 10% and 90% will give a different number than in the example I've linked above.
Again, no need to claim its sales issue or isn't, just go try it for yourself. You will see that the rise time for a step input doesn't match the 3dB point for sin input with this 0.35 ratio on these maximum flatness scopes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: radiolistener on June 10, 2018, 01:26:26 pm
Again, no need to claim its sales issue or isn't, just go try it for yourself. You will see that the rise time for a step input doesn't match the 3dB point for sin input with this 0.35 ratio on these maximum flatness scopes.

You can found that these modern oscilloscopes actually has a little smaller real bandwidth than specified in their specification.
If you ask manufacturer why there is a difference. You will get an answer about coefficient 0.4 instead of 0.35, because of modern technology, super-flatness and multiple poles transfer functions...   8)

I should say that we're talking about other oscilloscope manufacturer.
At least my Siglent SDS1102X has it's honest 100 MHz bandwidth.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on June 12, 2018, 09:49:40 am
Bandwidth is universally defined by the -3dB amplitude drop, unless otherwise specified, e.g. “0.5dB bandwidth”. This also applies for oscilloscopes. The bandwidths of the Siglent SDS1000X-E series have been accurately measured, so no need for speculation.

The 100MHz frontend in the SDS1100X-E has a fairly constant bandwidth of
  74MHz @ -1dB
110MHz @ -3dB
141MHz @ -6dB
for all vertical gain settings from 500uV/div up to 1V/div (not measured above).

The measurements are shown in the “SDS1104X-E Review 50-70” document that can be found here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371775/#msg1371775 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371775/#msg1371775)

Attached to the same posting, there is also the “SDS1000X-E Bandwidth” document, which also covers the topic of sample rate.

The result in short: 2.5 times the sample rate is enough for an accurate reproduction of the bandwidth limited input signal, or put differently, 500MSa/s is enough for a 200MHz input signal. Yet there are no explicit anti-alias measures and even if so, it would be impossible to implement an ideal brick-wall filter. So aliasing can be an issue when more than two channels are in use and the sample rate drops to 500MSa/s. Yet it requires pulses with fairly fast edges to produce strong enough high frequency content above Nyquist to cause real problems.

As member toli has pointed out, the filter transfer function determines the relationship between rise time and bandwidth. Apart from that, a sine wave that doesn’t reach the full amplitude anymore (which in itself already proves that the bandwidth limit has been exceeded) can of course show rise times faster than specified and what would be related to the -3dB bandwidth by whatever halfway realistic factor.

Look what the SDS2304X can do. Does that mean it has a bandwidth of nearly 600MHz? ;)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=454399;image)
SDS2304X_Fake_RT
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: radiolistener on June 12, 2018, 11:26:46 am
Look what the SDS2304X can do. Does that mean it has a bandwidth of nearly 600MHz? ;)

I think if it has so low rise time and flat response (< 3 dB deviation for entire 600 MHz range), then it really can satisfy with 600 MHz bandwidth requirements. Just rise time is not enough, it should has at least some amplitude accuracy. 3 dB is about 30-40% error, it's too much for measurement device...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: toli on June 16, 2018, 09:04:14 am
I have received my SDS1204X-E (+MSO option) this week, and now over the weekend finally had a chance to try and play with it.
I have installed latest fw on both scope and MSO, as well as latest operating system. However, even following a very short experience with it (~1 hour), I have run into some bugs. At first, turning on the serial decode option made the scope freeze. After a minute of no response I've restarted it and enabled the decoder again. Now the decoder works but looks like there are a few problems with it:
1 - it will occasionally miss the entire sequence. So I can see the waveform and its just fine, but the decoder fails to recognize it. Running the same sequence over the SPI line again fixes it.
2 - The scroll option doesn't work at all for the list of decoded messages of the SPI decoder (didn't try I2C). I can turn the knob forever, and even punch in a number, does nothing for the list.
3 - The MISO/MOSI lines at the bottom of the screen don't scale in the horizontal scale with the waveforms when I change the time base after data has been captured. It just stays fixed at what it was when the waveforms were captured.

Anyone else gave it a try and seen similar issues? Can you scroll through the list of decoded messages?

Thanks.

EDIT:
To try and understand the cause of the problem I've modified the decoder to use the analog channels instead of the digital channels, and now I don't observe the same issues.
So there is definitely something wrong with the software/integration of the digital channels. Performa01/tautech/anyone else who has direct contact with Siglent, can you please forward this to the Siglent team and see what input they can give you? This is with latest fw on both units.
I can try and forward this to Siglent via the local distributor like I did with the fw bug I had in the SSA3021X, but it'll take much longer than the solution I've seen provided to problems reported from within this forum.

EDIT2:
A small video demonstrating the problems (2+3, I didn't capture problem 1 in this video):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ar6GOoOX9GTlZQr1wLTwaW_rOyJ16NaU/view?usp=sharing
I have it in higher res in case anyone wants to, but its ~70MB uncompressed. Decode 1 is digital channels, Decode 2 is analog channels. I only use CH1 for clock, so MISO/MOSI in the analog channels case are constantly 0. CS is used as clock timeout for both decoders for an even comparison, but I did try with CS connected and observed similar results.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ian.ameline on June 17, 2018, 01:39:23 am
So it is possible to hack an SDS1104X-E to be a SDS1204X-E.

You need to patch the OS update so that the root password is known -- another member of eevblog has done this (check over in the ADS file format thread - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/125/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/125/) )

telnet to the scope, and log in as root. And execute the following commands and then power cycle the scope;

mount -o remount,rw ubi2_0 /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
cd /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
mv bandwidth.txt bandwidth.bak

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Mr. Scram on June 17, 2018, 06:50:42 am
So it is possible to hack an SDS1104X-E to be a SDS1204X-E.

You need to patch the OS update so that the root password is known -- another member of eevblog has done this (check over in the ADS file format thread - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/125/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/125/) )

telnet to the scope, and log in as root. And execute the following commands and then power cycle the scope;

mount -o remount,rw ubi2_0 /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
cd /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
mv bandwidth.txt bandwidth.bak
Interesting. It'd make the Siglent a lot more competitive compared to the DS1054Z.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on June 17, 2018, 12:16:28 pm
So it is possible to hack an SDS1104X-E to be a SDS1204X-E.

@janekivi @ian.ameline
If you have a beer fund to which I may contribute, let me know!  :-+

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: iMo on June 17, 2018, 12:30:43 pm
You have to mess with capacitors in the front-end as well, it seems (only 3.54Vpp/100MHz with 4Vpp input).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on June 17, 2018, 03:10:43 pm
Signal source Hewlett-Packard 8642B (calibration outdated)
0.8m Suhner RG223, Tektronix 011-0049-01 50ohm feedthru (Note 1),
Acg mode Normal, 1GSa/s, Channel 1, 50mV/div, Sin(x)/x, Coupling DC, Trigger rising edhe level 0mV
Level measurement: Measure Amplitude, statistics on, read average after >1000 count.

0dB Ref: 1MHz Sine, 600mVp-p (212mVrms) Ref Signal height p-p 6 division as is normal old thumb rule recommendation for oscilloscope freq response measurements (ref Tektronix)
Result:
-0.5dB @  70MHz
-1.0dB @ 114MHz
-1.5dB @ 178MHz
-2.0dB @ 197MHz
-2.5dB @ 216MHz
-3.0dB @ 231MHz

-3.5dB @ 244MHz
-4.0dB @ 269MHz
-4.5dB @ 280MHz
-5.0dB @ 289MHz
-5.5dB @ 301MHz
-6.0dB @ 316MHz
-10 dB @ 384MHz

Note 1:
50 ohm Feed Thru connected to oscilloscope Hi-Z input is never true 50ohm impedance termination over whole frequency range. This is of course because it is connected to oscilloscope input what have inductive and capacitive reactances. Most importtant mismatch in this case with these frequencies is of course scope input capacitive reactance. I have not available suitable normalizer.
But measurement is only for show that it is in that ball park what was expected.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ian.ameline on June 17, 2018, 03:17:25 pm
Mine has pretty flat response from 1 Mhz to 120Mhz after the hack... (Using coax, 50ohm terminated directly from a signal generator) - much flatter than before.

I wonder of someone who has a real 1204 can plot frequency response using 50 ohm terminated co-ax.





Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on June 18, 2018, 06:15:32 am
Mine has pretty flat response from 1 Mhz to 120Mhz after the hack... (Using coax, 50ohm terminated directly from a signal generator) - much flatter than before.


Yes, freq response shape is some amount different and flatness is better. It can also see in Performa01 review where is some compare with SDS1104X-E and SDS1202X-E.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=458716;image)
Here  risetime using Tektronix 284 (around 70ps risetime)
Signal pathway: TEK284 out, Gen-Rad GR874-N adapter, Suhner N-BNC, bit under 30cm RG223, Tek 50 ohm FeedThru, Scope input BNC.
Scope: display dots, persistence 30s, acg normal, Sin(x)/x on,
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tmbinc on June 18, 2018, 06:57:26 am
The only thing the "bandwidth.txt" changes are the FIR filter constants. The 20MHz limit is switched in the frontend, but the frontend is not switched for 100 MHz vs. 200 MHz. (Now of course it could be that the SDS1204X-E uses different components in the frontend but I doubt that somehow).

So from what it looks like, they "just" apply some gain so move the -3dB points at the cost of more noise...

Here are the FIR filter banks. They are selected based on bandwidth (100MHz vs. 200MHz) and sample rate (1G, 500M, 250M i think) but I haven't figured out all details.

Code: [Select]
FIR[0][0] =  [ 0.00079346  0.00073242 -0.00085449 -0.00634766 -0.01455688 -0.01586914  0.00582886  0.06085205  0.13955688  0.21099854  0.23999023]
FIR[0][1] =  [ 0.00079346  0.00073242 -0.00085449 -0.00634766 -0.01455688 -0.01586914  0.00582886  0.06085205  0.13955688  0.21099854  0.23999023]
FIR[0][2] =  [ 0.          0.00125122  0.0032959   0.00231934 -0.00872803 -0.02700806 -0.02737427  0.02441406  0.13296509  0.24938965  0.29998779]
FIR[1][0] =  [ 0.00161743 -0.00170898 -0.02911377  0.01168823  0.27908325  0.48001099   0.27908325  0.01168823 -0.02911377 -0.00170898  0.00161743]
FIR[1][1] =  [ 0.00161743 -0.00170898 -0.02911377  0.01168823  0.27908325  0.48001099  0.27908325  0.01168823 -0.02911377 -0.00170898  0.00161743]
FIR[1][2] =  [ 0.          0.0065918  -0.01742554 -0.05477905  0.26596069  0.6000061  0.26596069 -0.05477905 -0.01742554  0.0065918   0.        ]
FIR[2][0] =  [ 0.          0.00576782 -0.03933716  0.1055603   0.85598755  0.1055603 -0.03933716  0.00576782  0.          0.          0.        ]
FIR[2][1] =  [ 0.          0.00576782 -0.03933716  0.1055603   0.85598755  0.1055603 -0.03933716  0.00576782  0.          0.          0.        ]
FIR[2][2] =  [ 0.         -0.00161743  0.00845337 -0.02197266  0.03717041  0.95599365  0.03717041 -0.02197266  0.00845337 -0.00161743  0.        ]
FIR[3][0] =  [-0.00039673 -0.00271606 -0.00787354 -0.01071167  0.00460815  0.05377197  0.13238525  0.20831299  0.23999023  0.          0.        ]
FIR[3][1] =  [-0.00039673 -0.00271606 -0.00787354 -0.01071167  0.00460815  0.05377197  0.13238525  0.20831299  0.23999023  0.          0.        ]
FIR[3][2] =  [ 0.0015564   0.00097656 -0.00469971 -0.01818848 -0.02166748  0.02157593  0.12612915  0.2461853   0.29998779  0.          0.        ]
FIR[4][0] =  [-0.00082397 -0.01571655  0.00924683  0.26473999  0.48001099  0.26473999  0.00924683 -0.01571655 -0.00082397  0.          0.        ]
FIR[4][1] =  [-0.00082397 -0.01571655  0.00924683  0.26473999  0.48001099  0.26473999  0.00924683 -0.01571655 -0.00082397  0.          0.        ]
FIR[4][2] =  [ 0.00314331 -0.00939941 -0.04336548  0.25228882  0.6000061   0.25228882 -0.04336548 -0.00939941  0.00314331  0.          0.        ]
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on June 18, 2018, 08:47:57 am


So from what it looks like, they "just" apply some gain so move the -3dB points at the cost of more noise...



Of course noise level rise, this is normal price of higher BW, you meet this fact everywhere... in theory and in practice.
Basic fundamentals.
Power spectral density of "white" noise is constant over frequency but this is of course true only for white noise (what I have never seen in my life) but no need think it,
This mean that noise power is proportional to bandwidth. If  measurement bandwidth is double, detected noise power will double (an increase of 3 dB) --- in theory and in practice! (if noise is enough "white" in context)
If do not go more deep to details but it is extremely natural that noise level rise whjen BW rise.
Totally other case is if we rise BW and build circuit what have less noise using differrent components and circuit what have less noise. But again, if we then rise this "low noise" circuit bandwidth, same happen, noise rise.

Also it can see quite well here. Around 3dB rise.

Measured noise (1us/div, normal mode)  inputs 1M, 500uV/div, protected from external EMI using BNC cap.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=396451;image)
Old test (in this thread previously)

This new test have same settings so they are quite highly comparable and also same individual scope.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=458755;image)

If we look how much it rise and take randomly example CH4. Level (Vrms 1)  rise 3.14dB
And if we look how our BW shape and BW width change,  it can say that it is just as expected.

1. V Stdev = V rms - possible DC offset


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on June 18, 2018, 10:51:24 am
The "official" BW configurations of the SDS1004X-E model are 50, 70, 100 and 200Mhz.

As said previously, the fw has references to 250 and 300 MHz inside. But, among many other references, that has nothing to do with this scope.

Tests were made with 250M and 300M and proved that the scope didn't recognize these BWs and reverted to the basic 50MHz config.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on June 18, 2018, 10:57:24 am
The "official" BW configurations of the SDS1004X-E model are 50, 70, 100 and 200Mhz.
Maybe but no 50 MHz version exists for market.
Only the Chinese market get to see 70 MHz versions in the X-C range.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on June 18, 2018, 02:13:51 pm
Maybe but no 50 MHz version exists for market.
Only the Chinese market get to see 70 MHz versions in the X-C range.

OK, let's correct that:  The only BW configurations of the SDS1004X-E model are 50, 70, 100 and 200Mhz.

These are guaranteed by the current fw and have been tested.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: insine on June 18, 2018, 08:16:12 pm
I'm wondering if these coefficients are the same for every scope or maybe they also include factory calibration individual for every unit.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on June 19, 2018, 10:42:48 am
The 20MHz limit is switched in the frontend, but the frontend is not switched for 100 MHz vs. 200 MHz.


Can you prove that this is a fact. Where are evidences?
Have you analyzed 4 channel models analog front end signal pathway from AD8370 to ADA4932?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on June 20, 2018, 07:29:58 am
Looking at Performa01's review of the probes that come with the 1104 vs the 1204, the charts and graphs provided seem to show that they have similar 3dB points and rise times, but the PP215s have a much wider 1dB BW.   

Does it make sense to spend the hundred bucks and bump up to the PP215's from the PP510's? 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on June 20, 2018, 07:44:00 am
So it is possible to hack an SDS1104X-E to be a SDS1204X-E.

You need to patch the OS update so that the root password is known -- another member of eevblog has done this (check over in the ADS file format thread - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/125/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/125/) )

telnet to the scope, and log in as root. And execute the following commands and then power cycle the scope;

mount -o remount,rw ubi2_0 /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
cd /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
mv bandwidth.txt bandwidth.bak

so with these simple steps, the SDS-1104x-e will turn into an SDS-1204x-e at full effect? or is only a matter of model name in the system info?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on June 20, 2018, 08:03:35 am
So it is possible to hack an SDS1104X-E to be a SDS1204X-E.

You need to patch the OS update so that the root password is known -- another member of eevblog has done this (check over in the ADS file format thread - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/125/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/125/) )

telnet to the scope, and log in as root. And execute the following commands and then power cycle the scope;

mount -o remount,rw ubi2_0 /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
cd /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
mv bandwidth.txt bandwidth.bak

so with these simple steps, the SDS-1104x-e will turn into an SDS-1204x-e at full effect? or is only a matter of model name in the system info?

Just in some previous messages there was tests about BW and risetime etc.
And bit earlier there was also other member (Performa01) made BW test using SDS1104X-E as it is after factory. If you can not spot/guess what are these other tests... if you read this whole thread and tests etc.. I do not think it is difficult to deduce/extrapolate what are these last results.  :-/O ;)

(and perhaps best, for the moment, also jump over Reply #792 where exist strongly suspicious claim - until @tmbinc show enough evidences)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on June 20, 2018, 08:08:18 am
So it is possible to hack an SDS1104X-E to be a SDS1204X-E.

You need to patch the OS update so that the root password is known -- another member of eevblog has done this (check over in the ADS file format thread - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/125/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/125/) )

telnet to the scope, and log in as root. And execute the following commands and then power cycle the scope;

mount -o remount,rw ubi2_0 /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
cd /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
mv bandwidth.txt bandwidth.bak

so with these simple steps, the SDS-1104x-e will turn into an SDS-1204x-e at full effect? or is only a matter of model name in the system info?

Just in some previous messages there was tests about BW and risetime etc.
And bit earlier there was also other member (Performa01) made BW test using SDS1104X-E as it is after factory. If you can not spot/guess what are these other tests... if you read this whole thread and tests etc.. I do not think it is difficult to deduce/extrapolate what are these last results.  :-/O ;)

I just come back from holidays and I have much to read on the forum... I want to be sure not miss something.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on June 20, 2018, 12:17:49 pm
Looking at Performa01's review of the probes that come with the 1104 vs the 1204, the charts and graphs provided seem to show that they have similar 3dB points and rise times, but the PP215s have a much wider 1dB BW.   

Does it make sense to spend the hundred bucks and bump up to the PP215's from the PP510's?
At $27ea maybe, depending on the absolute accuracy you require. But for 4 probes, nah as you'd be very unlikely to need all 4 channels that precisely accurate. Maybe get one or two if you feel you really need to.

The list for PP510 (100 MHz probe) is only $10ea so $40total vs $108 for the full 200 MHz PP215 set.
So with the hack you've already saved $259 so to add a set of PP215's too that saving drops to $151.  :-/O
Something to consider.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on June 20, 2018, 05:06:51 pm
The 20MHz limit is switched in the frontend, but the frontend is not switched for 100 MHz vs. 200 MHz.


Can you prove that this is a fact. Where are evidences?
Have you analyzed 4 channel models analog front end signal pathway from AD8370 to ADA4932?

This is reason why I suspect and ask
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=460180;image)
Sorry phone image quality... but it perhaps still give some hint...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gregg on June 20, 2018, 05:15:28 pm
I just received my brand new SDS1204X-E and noticed it was warm when plugged in but not turned on. It is drawing 4.7 watts doing nothing.  Maybe Siglent should include a power switch on the side or back to turn it off completely.   
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bob Sava on June 20, 2018, 05:34:05 pm
I just received my brand new SDS1204X-E and noticed it was warm when plugged in but not turned on. It is drawing 4.7 watts doing nothing.  Maybe Siglent should include a power switch on the side or back to turn it off completely.   

I agree, it's a waste.  This is what I use:

(https://www.atxpowersupplies.com/images/power-cord-with-power-switch-large.jpg)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on June 20, 2018, 06:01:22 pm
I just received my brand new SDS1204X-E and noticed it was warm when plugged in but not turned on. It is drawing 4.7 watts doing nothing.  Maybe Siglent should include a power switch on the side or back to turn it off completely.   

Immediately I mutter to myself in my best Australian accent: "4.7 Watts!?  You could go to the moon with 4.7 watts!"
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on June 22, 2018, 10:18:49 am
Just for fun playing with one SDS1104X-E

Both images test signal and scope settings all same.
1GSa/s, FFT 0 - 500MHz, 10dB div,
Sweep from 5MHz to 500MHz. Source HP8642B, ~-5dBm -  30cm  Suhner RG223/U  -  Tektronix 50 ohm feed thru terminator.
(Later some words and tiny examples about over Nyquist aliasing specially with 500MSa/s and with wide analog BW).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=460951;image)
Original

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=460957;image)
Experimental
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on June 22, 2018, 12:28:38 pm
A couple of questions:

1) Is there any difference in operation of the SLA1016 between the 1104 and 1204?  From the data sheet, there doesn't seem to be, as the specs say 1 GSa/s, 14 Mpts/CH, and Min. Detectable Pulse Width 4 ns.

2) I haven't temporarily activated any options yet, and I do not see a <license> element in my NSP_system_info XML file.  I'm wondering if permanently activating the options might be done in a similar way as on the SSA3021X?  Has anyone tried this, yet?  I plan on taking a look at this tonight.

3) The User's Guide make some reference to being able to update the "Digital" software in a section entitled Digital System status and firmware upgrade on page 160.  Is this really the case that there is a separate, independent software upgrade for the MSO option?  Or is this software just part of the already included application software, or the SLA resident firmware, and the license key purchase for the MSO is just that, a license key only?

The reason I ask is that purchasing the SLA1016 seems much more attractive if I would be getting full performance at somewhat of a discount on cost.  :D
 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: toli on June 22, 2018, 12:53:28 pm
1. I don't think there is a difference, I own the SDS1204X-E + MSO option only though.
2. I don't know.
3. The MSO option has its own fw which is updated independently from a different menu and a different fw file. This file isn't "secret" you can download it just like the main fw. When you buy the license, you get a license only.

With all that being said, I would not recommend the MSO option, at least not at its current state. It suffers from several issues, some of which I've reported in this thread here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1611520/#msg1611520 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1611520/#msg1611520)
At the current state, I think it makes no sense to get the MSO option, it just doesn't deliver what you'd expect an MSO would. If I were you, I'd first wait to see what solutions are given to the issues reported so far, and when these solution will be available. Its a shame there isn't any real world info on the MSO option online. I know that if I had known such issues exist I would have looked for a different scope completely, one where the MSO option works properly.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on June 22, 2018, 01:32:07 pm
Thanks for the info, toli.  I actually saw your post and was going to ping you to see if there was a resolution yet to the problems you were seeing.  It seems Siglent has been pretty responsive so far in fixing some of the bugs relating to decoding in general, and from looking at the problems you describe, I would think that they should be able to fix those relatively quickly.

You said the MSO suffers from several issues; are there other bugs with the MSO option beyond what you've already described?

For me, seeing if I can even enable the permanent option is my first step, so I will be holding off on getting the SLA hardware for a little while.   
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: toli on June 22, 2018, 01:44:36 pm
I obviously share the hope that the MSO HW will be properly integrated with the scope in the near future.
At the moment the only thing that had changed over the week is thatI know Siglent have seen the text and video I have posted.
No solution is available yet, at least not that I'm aware of.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on June 22, 2018, 01:47:34 pm
1) Is there any difference in operation of the SLA1016 between the 1104 and 1204?  From the data sheet, there doesn't seem to be, as the specs say 1 GSa/s, 14 Mpts/CH, and Min. Detectable Pulse Width 4 ns.

There can't be any difference because the scope is exactly the same! Just some bytes difference...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on June 22, 2018, 03:40:24 pm
Just for fun playing with one SDS1104X-E

Both images test signal and scope settings all same.
1GSa/s, FFT 0 - 500MHz, 10dB div,
Sweep from 5MHz to 500MHz. Source HP8642B, ~-5dBm -  30cm  Suhner RG223/U  -  Tektronix 50 ohm feed thru terminator.
(Later some words and tiny examples about over Nyquist aliasing specially with 500MSa/s and with wide analog BW).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=460951;image)
Original

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=460957;image)
Experimental

Assuming what I am looking at is a comparison between a pre-hack 1104X-E and a post-hack 1104X-E, this confirms that the hack does indeed extend the 3dB point of the bandwidth to 200 MHz.

It would appear that this hack is capable of extending the bandwidth of the scope from 100 MHz to 200 MHz.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Hydron on June 22, 2018, 04:02:22 pm
It also looks like the attenuation beyond nyquist (250MHz for 3/4-channels enabled) in 200MHz mode is not really sufficient to stop aliasing of signals with significant >250MHz content. I would be interested to see what the waveforms look like with an input from something like Leo Bodnar's rise-time-tester is - this really plays havoc with the DS1054Z for example. I suspect that you'd need to be a bit careful with the 200MHz model when using more than 2 channels to look at stuff that might have higher-frequency components.

On this note, I really wish you could deliberately make use of the lower bandwidth options that are built into software-upgradable scopes (other than the standard 20MHz). The lower bandwidth limits are built in already for lower end models, but despite being useful for reducing noise and/or aliasing for inputs when full bandwidth isn't needed (but >20MHz is), this doesn't seem to be offered by many/any manufacturers (I've seen an extra 150MHz step above 20MHz on some Tek scopes, but not much more).

Until there is confirmation as to exactly what we're looking at it's hard to draw conclusions though - maybe rf-loop has been doing some hardware hacking too?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on June 22, 2018, 05:30:39 pm
It also looks like the attenuation beyond nyquist (250MHz for 3/4-channels enabled) in 200MHz mode is not really sufficient to stop aliasing of signals with significant >250MHz content.

Yes.  As I told previously "(Later some words and tiny examples about over Nyquist aliasing specially with 500MSa/s and with wide analog BW)."
It is always important that user understand what is aliasing and how to avoit falling this trap when use this kind of oscilloscopes - know fundamentals, know your equipment is more than important with all test and measurements instruments.


Until there is confirmation as to exactly what we're looking at it's hard to draw conclusions though - maybe rf-loop has been doing some hardware hacking too?

I can tell: Absolutely no any kind of hardware modification or adjusting or other kind of manipulation, not even any bamboo chopstick or paper clip trick.

In both FFT images oscilloscope is same individual unit. Same signal source, same cable, same terminator, same settings in signal gen and oscilloscope.
Exactly there is only one difference, and nothing else if we do not take into account that the place of the tests in time-space differs from one another and in this context also some other insignificant variables have changed bit.
This one and only meaningful difference can find exactly in Reply #785 in this thread.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on June 22, 2018, 07:28:19 pm
It also looks like the attenuation beyond nyquist (250MHz for 3/4-channels enabled) in 200MHz mode is not really sufficient to stop aliasing of signals with significant >250MHz content. I would be interested to see what the waveforms look like with an input from something like Leo Bodnar's rise-time-tester is - this really plays havoc with the DS1054Z for example. I suspect that you'd need to be a bit careful with the 200MHz model when using more than 2 channels to look at stuff that might have higher-frequency components.

That has been long done and can be found in the “SDS1000X-E Bandwidth” document attached to reply #1 here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371775/#msg1371775 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371775/#msg1371775)


On this note, I really wish you could deliberately make use of the lower bandwidth options that are built into software-upgradable scopes (other than the standard 20MHz). The lower bandwidth limits are built in already for lower end models, but despite being useful for reducing noise and/or aliasing for inputs when full bandwidth isn't needed (but >20MHz is), this doesn't seem to be offered by many/any manufacturers (I've seen an extra 150MHz step above 20MHz on some Tek scopes, but not much more).

From the document mentioned above, it should be clear that a bandwidth limit solely based on digital signal processing cannot prevent aliasing. Consequently, the only applications left for a bandwidth limit would be interference/noise suppression and for this a digital filter package is more useful anyway. Some scopes offer exactly that, even though for some reason it went out of fashion for low end scopes.

----------------------------
Here’s a comparison with the original 200MHz frontend in an SDS1202X-E. First at the same scale as shown in the images from rf-loop (but with a much lower frequency resolution that is perfectly adequate for the task):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=461161;image)
SDS1202X-E_500MHz_50mV_FFT2

As can be seen, flatness up to some 175MHz is a little better, but very similar otherwise.

The same graph, but with a higher amplitude resolution of 2dB/div:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=461167;image)
SDS1202X-E_500MHz_50mV_FFT2a
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on June 22, 2018, 08:40:32 pm
4 channel 1kX-E front end is not same as 2 channel 1kX-E. It can also see in previous photographs.

Also there need keep bit separate thinking with true frequency aliasing related to samplerate (Nyquist) and then with some "aliasing" looks like phenomenons. These last ones are bit difficult due to lack of deep details  about things happen in digital side.

And, of course only right place for BW reject is before ADC. There is nothing what can bet this analog side filter in this context.
If think SDS1204X-E it is of course very nice  if Siglent add also example 100MHz BW selection so that user can select 20 and 100 and full. (and without any exeption these of course need be analog side before ADC). 
Totally other thing is if then want also add some extra like adjustable DSP filters as example adjustable LPF, HPF and BPF.  For noise reduction there is already DSP filter: "ERES" LPF but as we know it drops wfm update speed dramatically what can use if trace average is not suitable with signal under test.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on June 22, 2018, 08:58:21 pm
A couple of questions:

1) Is there any difference in operation of the SLA1016 between the 1104 and 1204?  From the data sheet, there doesn't seem to be, as the specs say 1 GSa/s, 14 Mpts/CH, and Min. Detectable Pulse Width 4 ns.
No.

Quote
2) I haven't temporarily activated any options yet, and I do not see a <license> element in my NSP_system_info XML file.  I'm wondering if permanently activating the options might be done in a similar way as on the SSA3021X?  Has anyone tried this, yet?  I plan on taking a look at this tonight.
Don't know.

Quote
3) The User's Guide make some reference to being able to update the "Digital" software in a section entitled Digital System status and firmware upgrade on page 160.  Is this really the case that there is a separate, independent software upgrade for the MSO option?  Or is this software just part of the already included application software, or the SLA resident firmware, and the license key purchase for the MSO is just that, a license key only?
The SLA firmware is just that, firmware for the SLA module. The upgrade GUI and path are only available when the SLA module is connected. The FW is installed via the DSO's USB connection and through the S-Bus into the SLA module. All very straigt forward just like updating the DSO FW.

The reason I ask is that purchasing the SLA1016 seems much more attractive if I would be getting full performance at somewhat of a discount on cost.  :D
It's only if you need 4+ channels this might be attractive as there is more capability within the scope than the SLA.
More info and we can better advise if SLA is the right choice for you.
 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on June 22, 2018, 09:17:04 pm
The SLA firmware is just that, firmware for the SLA module. The upgrade GUI and path are only available when the SLA module is connected. The FW is installed via the DSO's USB connection and through the S-Bus into the SLA module. All very straight forward just like updating the DSO FW.
Understood.  The manual page wasn't quite clear to me until now.

It's only if you need 4+ channels this might be attractive as there is more capability within the scope than the SLA.
More info and we can better advise if SLA is the right choice for you.
I don't need anything.  :)  I was thinking about picking up a decent logic analyzer, but didn't really want a PC-based USB one for my tiny workbench.  Having the MSO pod for the 1104 made sense, but that price+license cost is a bitter pill to swallow (or more like a suppository given the scope was only $499 itself)  Being able to just fork over the bucks for the pod and creatively acquiring the license by other means would make it more attractive to a cheapskate like myself.

I am a tad concerned about the issues that toli raised, but am hoping Siglent will address them in short order.   

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on June 22, 2018, 09:38:16 pm
The SLA firmware is just that, firmware for the SLA module. The upgrade GUI and path are only available when the SLA module is connected. The FW is installed via the DSO's USB connection and through the S-Bus into the SLA module. All very straight forward just like updating the DSO FW.
Understood.  The manual page wasn't quite clear to me until now.

It's only if you need 4+ channels this might be attractive as there is more capability within the scope than the SLA.
More info and we can better advise if SLA is the right choice for you.
I don't need anything.  :)  I was thinking about picking up a decent logic analyzer, but didn't really want a PC-based USB one for my tiny workbench.  Having the MSO pod for the 1104 made sense, but that price+license cost is a bitter pill to swallow (or more like a suppository given the scope was only $499 itself)  Being able to just fork over the bucks for the pod and creatively acquiring the license by other means would make it more attractive to a cheapskate like myself.

I am a tad concerned about the issues that toli raised, but am hoping Siglent will address them in short order.   
Other than toli's findings, the SLA HW needs be improved.
The S-Bus cable is stiff and awkward on the bench, the ribbon cable .......just the same, and the grabbers.....well Siglent cheaped out on those  >:( compared to others used for the SDS2kX and SDS1kX MSO options.
If your bench is tight you won't be happy with SLA.

One mod that can be done I think, the ribbon cable I think is terminated with SCSI connectors and a quality round SCSI cable is a better and more tidy manageable solution.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on June 22, 2018, 11:05:15 pm
tautech, I'm getting a strange sensation that you're trying to talk me out of buying the SLA?  :scared:

 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on June 22, 2018, 11:26:30 pm
tautech, I'm getting a strange sensation that you're trying to talk me out of buying the SLA?  :scared:
That's entirely for you to decide on Bill as you need balance the points I've outlined against having another piece of equipment.
Look, it works but the associated HW could be better.
If I had to have it on my bench, I'd raise the DSO onto a low foot/frame/box and place the SLA and SAG modules permanently underneath so their I/O's face toward you and any HW/probes/cables that connects to them can be easily removed and stored when not in use.
They'd want to be fastened down too in some way so when connecting cables etc, it can be done without them sliding away or needing 3 hands to accomplish it.
Some decent 2" industrial Velcro could do the trick for that.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: innkeeper on June 23, 2018, 01:30:02 am
unboxed my new SDS1104X-E today. I'm pretty happy with it already, finally in the 21st-century scope wise..

I did the hack .. post hack .. up at 280mhz (highest I can actually compare against a known signal value) voltage readings are low by about 17% and that's a steady attenuation slope that starts dropping noticeably at about 150mhz. this was just a quick test against a calibrated signal generator 50 ohm termnated into the scope and a calibrated spectrum analyzer to double check the output level of the signal generator. 

All in all, not bad actually, and considering I'll likely not be getting 200mhz probes anytime soon so there will inaccuracies up at that range anyway with the existing probes.

Things did get weird when I turned on all 4 channels and had a 280mhz signal into channel 1, it really didn't like that, bad voltage readings, and frequency measurement, but, thats probably not unexpected.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bullonwheels on June 23, 2018, 01:56:28 am
I got one too. How do we hack ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on June 23, 2018, 02:31:05 am
I got one too. How do we hack ?
It starts at Reply #785 but this is only for BW.
Please study subsequent posts.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on June 23, 2018, 07:22:10 am
Things did get weird when I turned on all 4 channels and had a 280mhz signal into channel 1, it really didn't like that, bad voltage readings, and frequency measurement, but, thats probably not unexpected.

This is expected.

--------------
Quote from: all or nobody
?
generally:

With 500MSa/s Nyquist-Shannon "wall" is 250MHz.  All frequency components in signal what are over this Nyquist freq and what go to ADC they produce aliases. This is basic fundamental.
If there is very tight "brick wall" type filter in analog front end what stops all freq components over bit under Nyquist freq then we have not this problem.


500MSa/s : Just input 350MHz and you see 150MHz then 450MHz sinewave in and you can see nice 50MHz sinewave and then again same 50MHz with 550MHz input. (500MHz happen next folding)

If someone want see it in practice as trial with basic fundamentals lesson in school and what happen in frequency domain, just turn FFT on and then slowly adjust input signal frequency over fNyquist freq and then slowly up to over 2fNyg for seeing folding back and so on... after then can see that math (theory)  and practice is equal.

(if someone play with these (also with genuine 1104X-E) it need note that do not overdrive analog front end. Your display show attenuated level but your input signal is still what it is and  may overdrive analog front end and if you now try adjust V/div for more sensitivity for get waveform more vertical height. This may overdrive front end some parts and may generate really "miracles" to screen. Example, if signal level is -5dBm and example starting with 10MHz, perhaps vertical adjustment is 50mV/div. If signal from source to oscilloscope stay around constant then when you go to higher frequencies and you see signal level drops in scope display, due to attenuation inside scope... if now try adjust V/div for more sensitivity keep in mind that it may overdrive front end amplifiers even if you see low level in scope display. This higher level from generator is still there in analog front end circuits and this overdrive, if and when it happen,  may look really fun and weird.

"Know your equipment" (and some basics about your signal under tests)  is important rule for avoid several traps what may be even total mess instead of good measurements.

As told previously, when I get sooner or more like later, some more time I will do some tests and look around about signal sampling aliasing because so many peoples looks like falls to this trap.

But also note to manufacturers. Take better care about designing good analog filters to front end!
This is shame that  front end is such as a forgotten child. Why. And not only in bottom price scopes. Is it so that digital design is like childrens playing, just 1 and 0 but... analog DC - RF front end need real study, desing and lot of tests and developments work.  And still Siglent is not bad at all. BUt it can do better and it can do better without needing be higher price. Only it need higher skills to design and after then run circles and laugh around competitors..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: innkeeper on June 23, 2018, 06:35:41 pm
Thanks RF-Loop.

I knew there would be a wall with the sampling rate though never sat down to learn the effects of it or mathematically where I would it hit it. it makes a lot of sense the way you explained it. It was my immediate reaction when i saw it behave that way that i was past the ability of the ADC to sample the input correctly as I did know with all the channels on, that the sampling rate would be 500MSa/s so it was a pretty easy conclusion to think it was some aliasing issue.

but its good to understand exactly how it behaves and why.  Thanks for the explanation.

I'm sure this won't be the last trap i hit :) 
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3hm1VwDyaS8/WtjqFJ8qkwI/AAAAAAAAEP8/0bI4nlQCuTMr3k5tIxtQdHPUODFH50wFgCLcBGAs/s1600/Eastwood.jpeg)

I just started playing with the FFT function and comparing it to my DSA and spectrum analyzer, seeing what it takes to get it to do what i want. I'll have to run the experiment you suggested, and watch its behavior while i am playing. I am sure it will act exactly as you described.

The more I play with this thing, the more I wonder why I didn't go this way much sooner...Don't get me wrong, is not going to replace the dedicated equipment, but, I can see the need to turn those on going way down, what a huge time saver. .. i'm starting to feel a bit like rip van winkle lol. 





Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on June 28, 2018, 07:33:58 am
Here some tests with SDS1104X-E

Of course all tests are with single individual scope and without any kind of hardware modifications. Hardware is just out from factory box. Only difference is explained in this thread Reply # (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1612639/#msg1612639)785

In all test image pairs both have exactly same signal source and signal pathway to scope input BNC. All scope settings equal (these settings which have some effect in this context)

I will reserve some next msg for further test results so that they stay together. This is because I show them delayed.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=464597;image)
Picture 1.
This is made using 500MSa/s (250MHz fNyquist).
Input: Sweep from 5MHz to 250MHz, generator (HP8642B) output level 4dBm
Note 100MHz model BW shape near 250MHz, reason unknown...
 ETA:  For clarify this image. It seems that I have forget important information from image (it was all clear when there was just talking about mod, but if later some people look it out from original context it may look strange.
This Image 1. top half is SDS1204X-E (SDS1104X-E mod)
Bottom half is original SDS1104X-E "out from box".




(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=465077;image)
Picture 1.1
"fold back" aliases due to input over 250MHz fNyquist but under 2fNyquist
This is made using 500MSa/s (250MHz fNyquist).
Input: Sweep from 250MHz to 500MHz, generator (HP8642B) output level 4dBm
Note: FFT 0-250MHz show now input signal alias. Remember that now when sweep freguency goes up, signal in FFT display goes down. Example input 251MHz alias is  249MHz in FFT and 499MHz frequency input alias is now 1MHz in FFT. Middle point 125MHz is from 375MHz input. Just reverse (fold back from 250MHz fNyquist)  Think you mirror horizontally this image 1.1 after picture 1. and both together is as sweep from 5MHz - 500MHz.  (image 1 start from 5MHz due to reasons with HP8642B)

--Note1 for mod 200 with 1GSa/s this BW shape (think FFT horizontally mirrored and 250 - 500MHz. Of course just same as in FFT also normal scope time domain show this alias.
--Note2 for original 100MHz model with 1GSa/s, this is very different and it continue nearly same  attenuation from 250 to 500MHz
--Note3 for both scope screen in image 1.1. Trigger event freq counter (right top corner) show Alias frequency. Of course because this scope have full digital side trigger system and of course it trig to alias -  it can not know it is alias instead of direct true input signal. I have removed counter display because during sweep it is always late and it might cause confusion.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=465945;image)
Picture 1.2
Here is combination of some FFT - Sweeps using SDS1104X-E Original.
From previous images you can self look and think same kind of combine with SDS1104X-E (mod200)
Note specially original 100MHz BW shape when samplerate is 500MSa/s. It is near same as (mod200) exept this dip what have 250MHz center. But, 1GSa/s is very different (because.... and so on... all know that if example 100MHz signal in digital side is alias from 400MHz (if 500MSa/s) input or just original 100MHz input signal - digital side can not know it at all. This need also know when use scope what have example some strongly advertised user adjustable DSP filters what may in some cases produce total mess what nice looking product brochure do not tell you. Of course normal user know these potential traps due to education and experience and knows how to identify a potential problem situation and knows how to avoid problems)



(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=466455;image)
Picture 1.3
This is SDS1104X-E mod200
This image can compare with picture 1.2 about SDS1104X-E original.
With 1GSa/s FFT is useable up to 500MHz but of course user need understand and know signal attenuation and front end limits.
Note that FFT noise floor is far down out from screen bottom. Because 5dB div scale and here interested signal top (BW shape)


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=466461;image)
Picture 1.4
SDS1104X-E mod200
Just example: 303.303 MHz signal, input level ~ -4dBm
As can see  displayed noise floor top is under -80dBm (with this setting, including 50mV/div) and our 303MHz signal is around -10dBm (input level around -4dBm (attenuated roughly 6dB))
If look image 1.3 it can easy estimate what is situation if signal is example 490MHz with this same input level.
Yellow (persistence) is noise floor without trace averaging and white with average 16 traces.
Of course scope input have 50ohm termination and oscilloscope set for 50ohm external load. This Ext load value can set from 1ohm to 1Mohm.



Also compare to Reply #808 test image. Make your own conclusions or guesses. I can - but I do not want - speculate what is this or what it looks like at this point until more data.



(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=464591;image)
Picture 2.
Oscilloscope set for 1GSa/s  1ns/div, Sin(x)/x (later Sinc) on. Display mode vectors and color grade on (reason was better visibility in some other tests for better visibility and then it was on also here without reason)
Signal source Tek 284 pulse generator.   
(~70ns rise time in specifications but of course it is not true here with this kind of reactive load)

As can see in image with 1GSa/s these scopes works just as 100MHz and 200MHz scope work. No bad aliasing visible (if it exist it can see as corners wobbling with this kind of signals).
100MHz model no any visible aliasing but with 200MHz model there can see small amount corners wobbling (mode of aliasing). Note that input signal have lot of high frequency harmonics what goes really far over 500MHz fNyquist. Think user with probes. It is very hard to get these aliasing frequencies in to scope with normal probes when studying conventional circuits in practice. Of course if you make or own fast edge pulser you can... just remember, you can not use these scopes for analyze them and if pulse do not have enough wide real flat top you can not analyze scope with these.
 
But now, just keep it mind that this tests is with 1GSa/s what is available only if one or two channels are in use simultaneously. If three or four channels are in use, maximum is 500MSa/s per channel.
Just one thumb rule. When 500MSa/s in use do not input sinewaves what are more than just bit over 200MHz or pulse/square etc's where exist well under 2ns rise/fall times. Of course you can but then really need to know how to look for results so that aliasing do not fool you. Do not fall in to trap of alias.



(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=464798;image)
Picture 3.
Oscilloscope set for 500MSa/s  1ns/div, Sinc on. Display mode vectors and color grade on.
Signal source Tek 284 pulse generator (as picture 2.).   

As can see 500MSa/s is not enough specially for 200MHz BW with this kind of very fast rising signal when there is not brick wall type analog BW filter in front end before ADC what is only possible place. Digital side it can not do. Even if whoever is dreaming or believe fairy tales.

(later I will show how it looks like using different input signal risetimes what are more normal for use with this kind of oscilloscopes. )
 
With 200MHz model there can see lot of aliasing due to tiny attenuation over fNyquist. Input signal have lot of high frequency harmonics what also have high level and what goes really far over 250MHz fNyquist.

100MHz model rejects these high frequency components more and so aliasing is not at all so heavy.

It is bit stupid to drive these scopes with this kind of signal except for show limits of this kind of scopes. It is good that user understand these things and know his equipment for avoid mistakes when he think what is this machine showing. These things are natural and normal, all match with practice and theory. These are not at all bugs. Only way to avoid these are higher samplerates and or more expensive analog side filters. Of course mostly in practice there come other things what rejects frequencies (rise times) before oscilloscope input BNC.

Remember, 500MSa/s is not good for 1.75ns rise time square/rectangle type input signals but still ok for 200MHz sine wave signals. Only exception is if oscilloscope have reallly "hard-core" bit over 200MHz brick wall  filter. But then also you can not see 1.75nsa risetime on the screen what ever fast risetime flat top pulse you input. Fundamentals stay... 
 
Of course it is nice if manufacturer implement more and better analog side filters and even better if user can select these. But there do not exist free lounges.

If you need analyze signals and measure real risetimes with good accuracy, remember "five times" rule.
If you need measure example 2ns risetime signals risetimes etc and you need measure quite accurately  (~2%) these 2ns risetimes you need oscilloscope + probe what have 0.4ns or more fast risetime.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on June 28, 2018, 07:36:29 am
Under construction


First  look picture 3. in previous message. There input signal risetime is lot of under 1ns (generator specified for 70ps when load is perfect)

Next tests are made using generator with adjustable rise and fall times. Also it have quite low risetime jitter. (this is not at all like el cheapo DDS generators. Oh yes this machine have other not so nice things but for this test it is suitable (old heavy HP boat anchor - 100MHz double out programmable pulse generator)

Tests made using 1GSa/s and input signal risetimes 1, 1.8 and 3.5ns
And then same tests using 500MSa/s
in all images scope Acq mode is normal, fast, interpolation Sinc and display mode vectors.
With 1ns input and 500MSa/s  original and specially mod200 version show lot of aliasing and Sinc overshoot due to sample period related to rising edge time.

As told previously, using normal cheap probes it reduce pulse risetime so that scope do not see this kind of risetimes. Also user need know this kind of limits and take care about these basics for avoid false interpretations of what is displayed on the oscilloscope screen. Know your equipment!


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=465263;image)
Picture 4
As can see with 1GSa/s  Both versions no any problems, just "perfect" even when input is 1ns risetime pulse but of course 100MHz model show far less fast risetime than 200MHz mod.



(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=465269;image)
picture 5
As can see with 1GSa/s  Both versions no any problems, just "perfect" when input is 1.8ns risetime pulse.
Of course 100MHz model show less risetime than 200MHz mod.



(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=465275;image)
Picture 6
As can see with 1GSa/s  Both versions of course just "perfect" when input is 3.5ns risetime pulse
Of course 100MHz model show bit less risetime than 200MHz mod.



(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=465281;image)
Picture 7  (look also Picture 3. in previous message)
Now 500MSa/s. Input signal pulse risetime is 1ns. It is clear that this kind of signal with 500MSa/s is problem. It is problem specially with 200MHz mod due to its bandwidth shape what do not reduce enough frequencies over fNyquist and also importantly, risetime is too fast for this samplerate so that also Sinc interpolation overshoot more and less depending position of true sample points in every single acquisition.
As can see 100MHz model reduce problem due to its BW (risetime).
For reduce overshoot there can also turn Sinc off, what is some times recommended  in the literature for some situations with pulse/square type "digital" signals. But remember also, here we use signal what have risetime (frequencies) what goes over this scope. (1ns rise)



(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=465287;image)
Picture 8
Same as in picture 7 but now with 1.8ns signal pulse edge risetime 200MHz mod show some amount less corners wobbling (form of aliasing due to signal high freq components and some amount Sinc "feature".
100MHz model works just nearly perfect.



(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=465293;image)
Picture 9
Now with 3.5ns signal pulse edge risetime 200MHz mod show only quite small signs of corners wobbling. It is also possible that HP generator pulse edge corners are bit sharp(?)
100MHz model works just perfect.


Using 500MSa/s (more than 2 channels in use)
it is enough for 200MHz, this is not problem at all (this is always defined as sinewave).
But user need understand some these things if signal have meaningful amount of higher frequencies for avoid traps and false interpretations of the signal being tested.  Know basic fundamentals and importantly; know your equipment.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on June 28, 2018, 07:38:01 am
Reserved for continue test results in this same context
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on June 29, 2018, 08:04:12 am
Reserved for continue more test results in this same context
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on July 01, 2018, 12:10:42 pm
Reserved for continue more test results in this same context
Reply #830 updated
Added image 1.3 and 1.4 with some explanations.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on July 02, 2018, 01:52:41 am
Thanks to the intense efforts of the people over at the Siglent .ads thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/125/), I was also able to modify the software and now my scope performs according to the specifications described by RF-Loop above.

Thanks all!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on July 03, 2018, 03:05:13 am
Independent confirmation that the software modification provides the claimed 200 MHz bandwidth upgrade.  All measurements taken at 0dBm input signal into 50 Ohm terminator with the same scope.

100 MHz signal has 0.560 V peak to peak amplitude

235 MHz signal has 0.392 V peak to peak amplitude

This corresponds to a 3dB point of 235 MHz, well beyond the 1104X-E's claimed 100 MHz bandwidth, and in line with the 1204X-E's 200 MHz bandwidth.

Pictures (a little blurry now) attached


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on July 03, 2018, 08:05:13 am
Independent confirmation that the software modification provides the claimed 200 MHz bandwidth upgrade.  All measurements taken at 0dBm input signal with the same scope.

100 MHz signal has 1 V peak to peak amplitude

235 MHz signal has 0.700 V peak to peak amplitude

This corresponds to a 3dB point of 235 MHz, well beyond the 1104X-E's claimed 100 MHz bandwidth, and in line with the 1204X-E's 200 MHz bandwidth.

Pictures attached

This correspondds around -3dB compared to 100MHz level as reference. ... yes, it tell that it is now different compared to original.

But...


0dBm in 50ohm system is: 223.6mVrms (632.4mVp-p) 1Vp-p in 50 ohm system is 3.98dBm
And now, when you get 1Vpp using 100MHz and generator set fore 0dBm  it tells that "some things are wrong".

I can not see 50ohm termination in oscilloscope input!

Generator output impedance is 50ohm. Coaxial also 50ohm.  This transmission line need end with 50ohm impedance. You can test it without termination. Start from example 1MHz and slowly rise freq up to example  300MHz... you get many highs and lows due to reflection between scope input and generator output depending cable travel time.   It is now also depending your cable length now what reading you get with different frequencies.
;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on July 03, 2018, 12:39:16 pm
This correspondds around -3dB compared to 100MHz level as reference. ... yes, it tell that it is now different compared to original.

But...


0dBm in 50ohm system is: 223.6mVrms (632.4mVp-p) 1Vp-p in 50 ohm system is 3.98dBm
And now, when you get 1Vpp using 100MHz and generator set fore 0dBm  it tells that "some things are wrong".

I can not see 50ohm termination in oscilloscope input!

Generator output impedance is 50ohm. Coaxial also 50ohm.  This transmission line need end with 50ohm impedance. You can test it without termination. Start from example 1MHz and slowly rise freq up to example  300MHz... you get many highs and lows due to reflection between scope input and generator output depending cable travel time.   It is now also depending your cable length now what reading you get with different frequencies.
;)

Whoops, forgot the 50 ohm terminator! New measurements are updated in the original post.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: innkeeper on July 04, 2018, 07:04:55 pm
i could swear mine did a bit better... I'll have to re-measure now.
my generator only goes to 280 though.

be careful. i find that most signal generators aren't exactly flat on their outputs either.  so double confirm you're getting out what you expect.
i double check mine with an SA i have.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on July 05, 2018, 12:29:26 am
i could swear mine did a bit better... I'll have to re-measure now.
my generator only goes to 280 though.

be careful. i find that most signal generators aren't exactly flat on their outputs either.  so double confirm you're getting out what you expect.
i double check mine with an SA i have.

The range in my signal generators caps out at 1GHz, and it's rated amplitude flatness is better than 0.5dB. I will test it with my spectrum analyzer tomorrow though!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TheNewLab on July 05, 2018, 03:08:53 am
You guys are way ahead of me regarding increasing bandwidth..Anyone talking about building your own MSO module? SBUS connector? I sure I can find it..Siglent's version
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: toli on July 05, 2018, 04:02:51 am
Siglent didn't get their MSO right,so I hope you can do better :)
But it sure sounds like a nice idea, there are many things you could do better than the original unit.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on July 08, 2018, 04:40:05 am
So I must say that I am very impressed with this scope, especially with the extended bandwidth. Definitely an amazing value for the price.

One thing that I have noticed is that when I am using multiple channels, I would really like to have the channel buttons for each channel being displayed to be lit up, e.g. if I am measuring waveforms with channels 2 and 3, I would like the physical buttons to be lit up for channels 2 and 3. I realize that this might conflict with fact that the active channel is lit up, but perhaps the active channel button could cycle between a bright and dim state to accommodate that feature.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 08, 2018, 05:30:08 am
So I must say that I am very impressed with this scope, especially with the extended bandwidth. Definitely an amazing value for the price.

One thing that I have noticed is that when I am using multiple channels, I would really like to have the channel buttons for each channel being displayed to be lit up, e.g. if I am measuring waveforms with channels 2 and 3, I would like the physical buttons to be lit up for channels 2 and 3. I realize that this might conflict with fact that the active channel is lit up, but perhaps the active channel button could cycle between a bright and dim state to accommodate that feature.
While that's not a bad idea, lighting in a workplace present or not could effect the usability of dual illumination of buttons. I suspect it couldn't be done with SW but we'd have to check the front panel HW to know for sure.

While I've never been a fan of multiplexed vertical controls I quickly came to grips with X-E UI and use both the channel buttons and channel OSD indicators to know which channel is active for the controls and which are ON.
I'm certain the familiar GUI helped me immensely.
Old habits die hard and I get that if you're used to a certain UI it does take some time to change.
I commonly use 3 different Siglent DSO's and they all have minor differences in the UI but just that keeps my mind 'on the job' so not to make dumb arse errors.
I guess we all have different workflow and unlike a scope with dedicated vertical controls and and their ON/OFF illuminated buttons I think Siglent have picked an effective compromise for an entry level DSO.

Thanks for your feedback and maybe this subject can be explored further for some solution that might suit you better.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on July 08, 2018, 09:37:04 am
This is one useful "Know your equipment" thing.

One question what some times rise up is need for keep trigger horizontal position  in some other (user selected) fixed position than screen center what is many times default and only choice in lower end scopes exept example Siglent SDS1kXE.
Many my old (digital)scopes what I have used past decades, including some Tektronix and HP have user selectable horizontal position (zero time) so that when change horizontal speed it keep this position. Least so that there is three options, left or near left, center, right or near right.  And, this is useful many times.

Of course if it is only center, as in many entry level digital scopes it is, it is not "show stopper", quite easy you can move horizontal position (delay). But some times it is very frustrating when you need change time base and after every change you need adjust horizontal position (delay)
(and this same is also vertical what have offset and vertical display position. Change V/div and always adjust position again.. )

Just as @mikeselectricstuff say here.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-to1104-wishlist/msg1397471/#msg1397471 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-to1104-wishlist/msg1397471/#msg1397471)

Something that Chinese scopes like this often omit is to be able to have the zero-reference at the left or right (1 div from edge) of the screen as additional options to having it at the the centre.
You are almost always most interested in what happens before OR after the trigger, so these make more sense than having it at the centre.

Siglent SDS1104X-E have this feature with fully variable horizontal fixed position instead of some fixed positions.
User can select "Reference positions"
For Vertical: Fixed Position/Fixed Offset (factory default: FP)
For Horizontal: Fixed Delay/Fixed Position (factory default: FD)

If I set horizontal for Fixed Position, say example 5 div before center (2 div after display left)
after then when I change t/div it keep this position.

If I set horizontal for Fixed Delay. Scope default is that it is center screen. Now if have, say example 1us/div, and I want look more things after trigger I can move horizontal of course so that it have trigger position example -5us from center.  Now I can see 1 div before trig and 12 div after trig.  But then, I want change time base to example 100ns/div. Now my trigger position is far left out from display and I need turn adjustment until trigger position is visible. Then I go back to 1us/div and adjust again. Very frustrating if need do this.  Of course Fixed Delay is good for many things but not fore all.

Just select fixed position and now it keeps trigger horizontal position in place what user want. Left or Right or what ever position user want.

It also keep this selection until you change it or recall defaults (exept if you have changed defaults what you also can do)

(and same for Vertical. Very useful to use fixed Offset if you have signal what have DC offset and then you need look it with different V/div settings. You change V/div and your displayed signal stay in nsame vertical position (yes AC coupling can use, except if you are also interested very low frequencies down to DC)

(But least I'm not satisfied with horizontal Fixed Pos mode. In this mode my opinion is that displayed delay time zero is better to keep in this user adjusted fixed position, not center of display.  Of course this is only my personal opinion but so or so it is not rocket science to change it)

Here is one simple tiny example.
Signal is saw tooth with fast rise and slow fall.
I set Fixed Position 2 div from left side.
Then I have only changed time base from 10us/div to 1ns/div. And it keep its position on the screen. (with fixed delay it keeps position only if trigger is display center)
(due to very long persistence time you see all time base settings)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: GregDunn on July 09, 2018, 02:14:33 am
Thanks to the community for the amazing reviews, updates and general info about this scope.  Is there a manual which specifically addresses the 1x04 4-channel models?  All I can find on the web is a 1x02 series manual which has been edited to include a few references to the 4-channel series.

I know 90% of the details are the same, but there are a few idiosyncracies of managing the shared vertical controls which are puzzling me and aren't talked about in the manual (which assumes separate vertical controls for each channel).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on July 09, 2018, 02:47:48 am
Hi,
I wonder what I am observing here - a bug in the latest stock firmware (7.0.6.1 25R2) or something else. I noticed that every time when I zoom in (change vertical sensitivity) on the recorded signal it looks quite noisy. Eventually I simplified  the test to avoid any ambiguity and this is the result:

a) the signal source (MCU) with stable power supply generates 50 pulses. The channel 4 monitors power line. The SDS1204X-E is single trigger mode, 5V/div, the signal is applied to channel 1

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=472022;image)

b)now lets change the scale to 1V/div - the signal looks quite noisy and I know that this is not true.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=472028;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=472034;image)

c) another recording of the same signal, SDS1204X-E is in single trigger mode, 1V/div, the signal looks as it should be. The only difference a c is the vertical sensitivity.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=472040;image)

My question is - what is this wrong with displaying the previously recorded signal when the vertical sensitivity has been changed ?
Thanks!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 09, 2018, 02:53:29 am
Thanks to the community for the amazing reviews, updates and general info about this scope.  Is there a manual which specifically addresses the 1x04 4-channel models?  All I can find on the web is a 1x02 series manual which has been edited to include a few references to the 4-channel series.

I know 90% of the details are the same, but there are a few idiosyncracies of managing the shared vertical controls which are puzzling me and aren't talked about in the manual (which assumes separate vertical controls for each channel).
Yep, the US site hasn't been updated with the latest version of the manual but it's available from the Shenzhen site even though the URL appears to indicate otherwise.
http://old.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/manual/SDS1000X-E_UserManul_UM0101E-E03A.pdf (http://old.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/manual/SDS1000X-E_UserManul_UM0101E-E03A.pdf)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: GregDunn on July 09, 2018, 03:03:49 am
Excellent - that's updated and much easier to follow.  Much appreciated!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 09, 2018, 03:06:38 am
Hi,
I wonder what I am observing here - a bug in the latest stock firmware (7.0.6.1 25R2) or something else. I noticed that every time when I zoom in (change vertical sensitivity) on the recorded signal it looks quite noisy. Eventually I simplified  the test to avoid any ambiguity and this is the result:

My question is - what is this wrong with displaying the previously recorded signal when the vertical sensitivity has been changed ?
Thanks!
I know there are occasions when a STOP, Single or screenshot displays things that take some understanding so just trying to find a reason for what you see:
Can you set Ch4 to AC coupling and crank up the sensitivity ? 5V/div doesn't tell us much.
Could the the noise you see on Ch1 be related to the MCU clock ?

 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on July 09, 2018, 03:24:54 am
Could the the noise you see on Ch1 be related to the MCU clock ?
:-//
The last screenshot (channel 1) is taken at 1V/div - looks good, the second screenshot - the channel 1, taken at 5V/div => ver. sensitivity has been changed to 1V/div - it looks strange => it  must be the same as the last screenshot, period. MCU has nothing to do with it, I used the signal generator with the same result.

I know there are occasions when a STOP, Single or screenshot displays things that take some understanding
Agree, and knowing that this is why I spent some time on Sunday evening to make it easy to understand and what is more easy to reproduce.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on July 09, 2018, 06:01:21 am
Hi,
I wonder what I am observing here - a bug in the latest stock firmware (7.0.6.1 25R2) or something else. I noticed that every time when I zoom in (change vertical sensitivity) on the recorded signal it looks quite noisy. Eventually I simplified  the test to avoid any ambiguity and this is the result:

a) the signal source (MCU) with stable power supply generates 50 pulses. The channel 4 monitors power line. The SDS1204X-E is single trigger mode, 5V/div, the signal is applied to channel 1

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=472022;image)

b)now lets change the scale to 1V/div - the signal looks quite noisy and I know that this is not true.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=472028;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=472034;image)

c) another recording of the same signal, SDS1204X-E is in single trigger mode, 1V/div, the signal looks as it should be. The only difference a c is the vertical sensitivity.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=472040;image)

My question is - what is this wrong with displaying the previously recorded signal when the vertical sensitivity has been changed ?
Thanks!

Before I start tell basic fundamentals how digital oscilloscope works (and what you have meet here) I want you tell me why your first image display 20MSa/s because if you did as you tell, this 20MSa/s with 14Mpts is not possible at all when t/div is 100us/s. Is it possible you have captured it using 50ms/div and after then zoomed in? What other things, if any,  you coincidentally forget to tell?

Is it so that everything user do not understand is the manufacturer's fault?

I can give one tip first. ADC is 8bit.

In the main, this is a problem in education, not in the oscilloscope.
Here we can work together to study, shorter and longer courses about basic fundamentals of oscilloscopes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on July 09, 2018, 05:40:44 pm
Before I start tell basic fundamentals how digital oscilloscope works (and what you have meet here) I want you tell me why your first image display 20MSa/s because if you did as you tell, this 20MSa/s with 14Mpts is not possible at all when t/div is 100us/s. Is it possible you have captured it using 50ms/div and after then zoomed in? What other things, if any,  you coincidentally forget to tell?

Honestly, I have no clue what you are asking for. What else do you want to hear?
Is it possible that I captured the signal using XX ms/div and after that changed the horizontal scale to YY us/div? Yesterday I took about 30 different screenshots while was trying to understand what I was looking at and I was changing the H and V scales  whenever I needed. But I don't think that it has a big relevance in _this (please note the underscore sign, which is supposed to have some meaning in this context) particular case because anyway we had high enough sampling rate and we are mostly interested in vertical resolution and all contributing factors (XX bit ADC, the dynamic range of the amplifier (if there is any) + ADC resolution, the type of the used amplifier - it can be a fixed gain or variable gain amз etc - all that would affect the final/full dynamic range of the system - I don't have any knowledge about SDS 1204 internal implementation -> that is why I asked this question on the forum in the first place) leading to the observed effect.


Is it so that everything user do not understand is the manufacturer's fault?
If I could suggest then I would suggest that you reread my original post which started from the sentence "I wonder what I am observing here - a bug in the latest stock firmware (7.0.6.1 25R2) or something else." Where have I said about  "manufacturer's fault? in assertive manner  :-//

I can give one tip first. ADC is 8bit.
In the main, this is a problem in education, not in the oscilloscope.
Here we can work together to study, shorter and longer courses about basic fundamentals of oscilloscopes.

You have edited your message 2 times after posting it by adding 3 last lines filled with valuable info.

Before I start tell basic fundamentals how digital oscilloscope works
No need, thanks. Now I know that the used ADC is 8 bit and this is probably the culprit. Why probably? Because like I already mentioned I think the ADC resolution is not the only factor that matters in this case.

The most important conclusion (for me) is that if I run all 4 channels (i.e. 2 ver. div for a channel) at once and observing TTL level signals (i.e. I use 5V/ div)  then after I captured the event I am interested in and try to zoom in by changing vertical scale I am going to see some of non-existing noise which is just the result low overall resolution of used ADC and other contributing factors. I wonder how much difference I would see in a similar situation (the screen is 8 ver. div, 4 channels are running, the ver. sensitivity is 5V/div, the captured signal is examined at  1V/div) with a o-scope using 12bit ADC.  I actually have a 16 bit o-scope, sitting nearby so I may try it for comparison purposes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on July 09, 2018, 05:57:06 pm
So I must say that I am very impressed with this scope, especially with the extended bandwidth. Definitely an amazing value for the price.

One thing that I have noticed is that when I am using multiple channels, I would really like to have the channel buttons for each channel being displayed to be lit up, e.g. if I am measuring waveforms with channels 2 and 3, I would like the physical buttons to be lit up for channels 2 and 3. I realize that this might conflict with fact that the active channel is lit up, but perhaps the active channel button could cycle between a bright and dim state to accommodate that feature.
While that's not a bad idea, lighting in a workplace present or not could effect the usability of dual illumination of buttons. I suspect it couldn't be done with SW but we'd have to check the front panel HW to know for sure.

Personally I would be against of such modification, I really like the way the channel button's logic works right now. What would the proposed change give? To indicate what channels are activate? But there are channel indicators on the screen, plus in some situations (depends on the used trigger mode)  the visible signals (in different color) immediately give you the idea what channels are enabled. The situation would be different if they have not used multiplexed vertical controls but we have what we have.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on July 10, 2018, 12:24:15 am
So I must say that I am very impressed with this scope, especially with the extended bandwidth. Definitely an amazing value for the price.

One thing that I have noticed is that when I am using multiple channels, I would really like to have the channel buttons for each channel being displayed to be lit up, e.g. if I am measuring waveforms with channels 2 and 3, I would like the physical buttons to be lit up for channels 2 and 3. I realize that this might conflict with fact that the active channel is lit up, but perhaps the active channel button could cycle between a bright and dim state to accommodate that feature.
While that's not a bad idea, lighting in a workplace present or not could effect the usability of dual illumination of buttons. I suspect it couldn't be done with SW but we'd have to check the front panel HW to know for sure.

Personally I would be against of such modification, I really like the way the channel button's logic works right now. What would the proposed change give? To indicate what channels are activate? But there are channel indicators on the screen, plus in some situations (depends on the used trigger mode)  the visible signals (in different color) immediately give you the idea what channels are enabled. The situation would be different if they have not used multiplexed vertical controls but we have what we have.

I am definitely not proposing any changes to the UI displayed on the screen, which in my estimation functions rather well.  The purpose of the proposed change would provide exactly what you just described: an additional indicator of what channels are active.  I acknowledge that there are some indications on the screen about what channels are active, but there are situations when it is not as obvious.

One of those situations occurs when a non-active channel is turned on but possesses an amplitude offset that takes it off screen.  If the trigger is set to a channel that does not correspond to the off-screen signal, the only two indicators that the channel is indeed on are the channel box on the right hand side of the screen, and a small colored arrow indicating that it is off-screen.  It is my opinion that it can be easily missed that the channel has been turned on.  I have attached a copy of an image demonstrating this scenario in this message.

I realize that after a large number of hours working with this device that this issue may be mitigated by experience, but it seems to me that having each channel that is currently in use to have its associated push button lighted is a reasonable way to make it totally clear which channels are turned on and which ones arent.  For the active channel, I acknowledge that cycling between a bright and dim state for the push button may not be possible or easily overlooked, so perhaps cycling between on and off states would be a fair compromise.

This capability is actually already present in Rigol, Rohde & Schwarz, and Keysight oscilloscopes, and is really quite nice:

(https://core-electronics.com.au/media/kbase/rigol-review-ds1104z-1280x720.png)
(https://c8.alamy.com/comp/MBBD0R/digital-oscilloscope-exhibit-at-technology-fair-in-shenzhen-china-MBBD0R.jpg)
(http://www.cal-center.us/images/products/DSO5054A_1355493755_7621.jpg)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on July 10, 2018, 12:42:25 am
[ It is my opinion that it can be easily missed that the channel has been turned on.  I have attached a copy of an image demonstrating this scenario in this message.

Hi SMB784,

could you please double check if you forgot to attach the aforementioned image?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on July 10, 2018, 12:48:22 am
[ It is my opinion that it can be easily missed that the channel has been turned on.  I have attached a copy of an image demonstrating this scenario in this message.

Hi SMB784,

could you please double check if you forgot to attach the aforementioned image?

Thanks!

Yep sorry just attached it!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 10, 2018, 01:08:44 am
[ It is my opinion that it can be easily missed that the channel has been turned on.  I have attached a copy of an image demonstrating this scenario in this message.

Hi SMB784,

could you please double check if you forgot to attach the aforementioned image?

Thanks!

Yep sorry just attached it!
As you wrote earlier:

Quote
I realize that after a large number of hours working with this device that this issue may be mitigated by experience
This is the key here, but not a 'large number of hours', only a little time to look at the display with a little more analytical mind.  ;)

Other than the 2 indicators you've mentioned (zero level marker and channel ON box) there's also the zero level indicator in the channel box that when compared with the V/div setting indicates the waveform will obviously be off the display. When you find yourself in this situation a press of the Position control returns the active channel to the 0V position to where you can place it where it suits best.

Much of this is just familiarity with the UI, is it right or wrong or just another way to do the same operations as any other DSO ? They are all different in some way or another.

Compared to the other scope images you've posted I ask which has the most prominent active channel box on the display ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on July 10, 2018, 01:28:14 am
As you wrote earlier:

Quote
I realize that after a large number of hours working with this device that this issue may be mitigated by experience
This is the key here, but not a 'large number of hours', only a little time to look at the display with a little more analytical mind.  ;)

Other than the 2 indicators you've mentioned (zero level marker and channel ON box) there's also the zero level indicator in the channel box that when compared with the V/div setting indicates the waveform will obviously be off the display. When you find yourself in this situation a press of the Position control returns the active channel to the 0V position to where you can place it where it suits best.

Much of this is just familiarity with the UI, is it right or wrong or just another way to do the same operations as any other DSO ? They are all different in some way or another.

Compared to the other scope images you've posted I ask which has the most prominent active channel box on the display ?

I definitely concur that after a few days/weeks of familiarity that one becomes used to looking for active channels in the channel box, however there are a few things that I will point out.

The first and foremost of these is the fact that in a display a little redundancy goes a long way when it comes to ease of use. In this situation, nothing is sacrificed and in order to further emphasize the channels being used in an obvious and unambiguous way.

Secondly, there is the visibility aspect. It is difficult to see the on screen channel indicators from a distance beyond a couple feet. This is especially problematic when you have less than four but more than one channel activated, as it is possible to see that two/three channels are on from the channel box but it's difficult to tell which ones specifically are active. A lighted button for each active channel would make this completely unambiguous at any distance or viewing angle.

Finally, there is the mainstream appeal factor. You sacrifice nothing in opting for this feature and it makes your scope more familiar to those who are used to other competing scopes, which may improve your appeal.

Regardless it's not a huge deal, and I do love the scope, but the OCD in me made me bring it up, especially given that it is a feature that I know and love after having used scopes from just about every manufacturer there is
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 10, 2018, 01:48:56 am
As you wrote earlier:

Quote
I realize that after a large number of hours working with this device that this issue may be mitigated by experience
This is the key here, but not a 'large number of hours', only a little time to look at the display with a little more analytical mind.  ;)

Other than the 2 indicators you've mentioned (zero level marker and channel ON box) there's also the zero level indicator in the channel box that when compared with the V/div setting indicates the waveform will obviously be off the display. When you find yourself in this situation a press of the Position control returns the active channel to the 0V position to where you can place it where it suits best.

Much of this is just familiarity with the UI, is it right or wrong or just another way to do the same operations as any other DSO ? They are all different in some way or another.

Compared to the other scope images you've posted I ask which has the most prominent active channel box on the display ?

I definitely concur that after a few days/weeks of familiarity that one becomes used to looking for active channels in the channel box, however there are a few things that I will point out.

The first and foremost of these is the fact that in a display a little redundancy goes a long way when it comes to ease of use. In this situation, nothing is sacrificed and in order to further emphasize the channels being used in an obvious and unambiguous way.

Secondly, there is the visibility aspect. It is difficult to see the on screen channel indicators from a distance beyond a couple feet. This is especially problematic when you have less than four but more than one channel activated, as it is possible to see that two/three channels are on from the channel box but it's difficult to tell which ones specifically are active. A lighted button for each active channel would make this completely unambiguous at any distance or viewing angle.

Finally, there is the mainstream appeal factor. You sacrifice nothing in opting for this feature and it makes your scope more familiar to those who are used to other competing scopes, which may improve your appeal.

Regardless it's not a huge deal, and I do love the scope, but the OCD in me made me bring it up, especially given that it is a feature that I know and love after having used scopes from just about every manufacturer there is
:)
It's nice to have a discussion where we can explore POV's and I fully get what you're asking here but I'd ask that if all active channels ON/OFF buttons were lit, how could the user know which one was active for the vertical controls ?
Would you have to press one again to set it to the vertical controls ?
This is what 17_29bis was meaning when he said he thought the existing channel management/indication logic was good.

Others ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on July 10, 2018, 02:05:11 am
:)
It's nice to have a discussion where we can explore POV's and I fully get what you're asking here but I'd ask that if all active channels ON/OFF buttons were lit, how could the user know which one was active for the vertical controls ?
Would you have to press one again to set it to the vertical controls ?
This is what 17_29bis was meaning when he said he thought the existing channel management/indication logic was good.

Others ?

My suggestion to solve the problem of which channel is active was to have the lighted button for the active channel cycle between a dark (or dim) state and a bright state, perhaps at a 1-2 Hz rate.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: wpwrak on July 10, 2018, 04:18:18 am
My Rigol DS1102CD also lights the buttons of all active channels, and you have to search for the active channel indication on the screen to see which one is selected. Uncertainty about the selected channel happens to me infrequently enough that I don't automatically look at the right place, yet sufficiently often that I remember it as a bit of a nuisance. Not sure if having only the selected channel lit would work better for me, but it does seem to be a more logical choice. I'm also not sure if I'd really want to have it blink. Of course, Siglent could just implement all three options, all active, only selected, both with blinking.

I'm a bit confused about the proposed use case: measure a non-active channel that is also off-screen ? Is there a "non" too many ?

Regarding measuring off-screen waveforms, how well does that actually work ? I would expect the scope to set the ADC range to cover mainly the screen, so the measured signal may be clipped or suffer other distortions ? Or does the Siglent let you choose screen position and DC offset independently ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on July 10, 2018, 04:56:46 am
I'm a bit confused about the proposed use case: measure a non-active channel that is also off-screen ? Is there a "non" too many ?

Regarding measuring off-screen waveforms, how well does that actually work ? I would expect the scope to set the ADC range to cover mainly the screen, so the measured signal may be clipped or suffer other distortions ? Or does the Siglent let you choose screen position and DC offset independently ?

The image I posted wasn't related to actually using an off screen waveform, rather it was posted to highlight the fact that there can be situations where I forget what channels are actually turned on, and one of those situations is when the channel is turned on corresponding to a waveform that is off screen. In that situation I am left wondering whether or not I have actually turned on the channel. Of course this can be remedied by looking at the channel box on the right, which I will have to train myself to do.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on July 10, 2018, 05:52:37 am
I'm a bit confused about the proposed use case: measure a non-active channel that is also off-screen ? Is there a "non" too many ?
Regarding measuring off-screen waveforms, how well does that actually work ? I would expect the scope to set the ADC range to cover mainly the screen, so the measured signal may be clipped or suffer other distortions ? Or does the Siglent let you choose screen position and DC offset independently ?

Exactly my thought. If my memory serves me well someone (the one who knows the ropes)  on this forum already said that if the oscillogram/waveform does not fit the screen then it's most likely / almost guarantied that the measurements on this channel will be incorrect i.e. it has no practical use.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on July 10, 2018, 02:28:45 pm
I'm a bit confused about the proposed use case: measure a non-active channel that is also off-screen ? Is there a "non" too many ?
Regarding measuring off-screen waveforms, how well does that actually work ? I would expect the scope to set the ADC range to cover mainly the screen, so the measured signal may be clipped or suffer other distortions ? Or does the Siglent let you choose screen position and DC offset independently ?

Exactly my thought. If my memory serves me well someone (the one who knows the ropes)  on this forum already said that if the oscillogram/waveform does not fit the screen then it's most likely / almost guarantied that the measurements on this channel will be incorrect i.e. it has no practical use.

ADC full range is ~10div  display vertical height is 8div.
Out of display there is around 1 div area for signal out of top and bottom of display. This area is not linear at all, as can see in next images. It can say that around  7div have good linearity and 6div have "perfect" linearity.  Here two images what may tell some things.

Of course some can say linearity is nice if it is better. Yes also I can say it but then... if one ask that is it nice if there is very hard sharp clip due to ADC. Then I answer immediately that no. It need also rmember that we have here front end amplifier what need be cheap and what need do 500µV - 10V/div and from DC to least 200MHz with quite low noise and enough linear vs freq.
It can just say, without going details and reasons and reasons behind reasons and so on... it  can say simply. This is compromise between many things and with it need live - if can not then some other. All like ideal but when we go more and more close to ideal it also means that price rise exponentially.

Also later (after I have more free time to this hobby playing) some things when some signal is captured to memory and then stopped and zoomed vertically in and horizontally in including also dots and vectors with Sinc on and off


Here these ramp images.
178 original acquisition with 50mV/div and then stopped
179 after stopped then vertically zoomed out to 100mV/div Now one vertical div is just 2 vertical div in original. (red ramp is imagined, not captured, how original signal looks like if scope is ideal machine)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: wpwrak on July 10, 2018, 04:05:08 pm
Here these ramp images.

Thanks a lot ! These images show very clearly what I suspected would go wrong when pushing these limits. SMB784's use case may still work, but would require prior characterization of scope performance for the exact set of settings to be used.

By the way, I find it interesting that one can already see a hint of non-linearity in the top and bottom parts of image 178. That shows how narrow the margins really are.

Fun ideas for when someone gets around to writing alternative firmware for a scope:
- add optional warnings when waveforms get clipped, especially if measurements are active that would be directly affected,
- if moving parts of a waveform with high distortion onto the screen, visually indicate that these parts can't be trusted,
- add (optional) auto-ranging of front end configuration to capture entire amplitude,
- allow manual control of ADC of front end configuration, including separate control for DC offset and screen position,
- per-channel intensity control so that one can just hide active channels one doesn't want to look at (i.e., the real issue SMB784 is trying to solve).

Especially the first two could help less experienced users in situations where the scope is doing something that's very different from what they think it should be doing.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on July 10, 2018, 04:42:43 pm
Here these ramp images.

Thanks a lot ! These images show very clearly what I suspected would go wrong when pushing these limits. SMB784's use case may still work, but would require prior characterization of scope performance for the exact set of settings to be used.

By the way, I find it interesting that one can already see a hint of non-linearity in the top and bottom parts of image 178. That shows how narrow the margins really are.

Fun ideas for when someone gets around to writing alternative firmware for a scope:
- add optional warnings when waveforms get clipped, especially if measurements are active that would be directly affected,
- if moving parts of a waveform with high distortion onto the screen, visually indicate that these parts can't be trusted,
- add (optional) auto-ranging of front end configuration to capture entire amplitude,
- allow manual control of ADC of front end configuration, including separate control for DC offset and screen position,
- per-channel intensity control so that one can just hide active channels one doesn't want to look at (i.e., the real issue SMB784 is trying to solve).

Especially the first two could help less experienced users in situations where the scope is doing something that's very different from what they think it should be doing.

Guys you are mischaracterizing what I said.  I never said that I intended to take measurements from a trace off screen, and I certainly do not want to solve any issue about HIDING active channels.  What I said was that sometimes when you switch to a different channel after turning on a channel whose trace happens to be off screen (maybe even by accident), it can be difficult to determine at a quick glance whether or not you have actually turned on the channel without a lighted button for that channel.

My statement was an argument for a lighted button for each channel that has been turned on, as opposed to the current configuration that only has a lighted button for the currently active channel.  Nothing more than that.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Hydron on July 10, 2018, 04:55:59 pm
rf-loop:
R&S RTB2k (and I assume their higher end siblings) do the first three of these ideas. You get little red arrows on the channel info bar when clipping (pointing up, down or both depending on clipping direction), a hard cut-off edge to the waveform in orange when moving it up/down the screen after capture and measurements will show "clipping+" or "clipping-" when used on a clipped waveform.

Definitely agree about being able to decouple ADC range from 1:1 mapping to screen display range - some scopes allow for the ADC range to cover a smaller portion of the screen so that you can "stack" waveforms for better visibility without reducing the captured resolution, but these scopes seem to be few and far between (I think the new Tek scopes do this, but others have in the past too despite the Tek marketing droids claiming it as revolutionary).

SMB784:
Again comparing to the RTB2k (and also the new Tek scopes) - this does what you want (enabled channels have lit LEDs behind their respective panel buttons), but this scope also has the ability to light up the knobs with the currently selected channel's colour (via RGB LEDs behind the panel). This means that you can tell BOTH which channels are on and which channel is currently selected for adjustment - unfortunately hard to do without the multicoloured LED thing or referring to the screen. Without this it's always going to be a compromise as to how the use the channel button LEDs - it's never going to be right for everyone. Both of my examples are well above the Siglent price point though (and have their own quirks) so I think it's hard to criticise a few compromises and limitations like this!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on July 10, 2018, 05:47:06 pm
rf-loop:
R&S RTB2k (and I assume their higher end siblings) do the first three of these ideas. You get little red arrows on the channel info bar when clipping (pointing up, down or both depending on clipping direction), a hard cut-off edge to the waveform in orange when moving it up/down the screen after capture and measurements will show "clipping+" or "clipping-" when used on a clipped waveform.

Definitely agree about being able to decouple ADC range from 1:1 mapping to screen display range - some scopes allow for the ADC range to cover a smaller portion of the screen so that you can "stack" waveforms for better visibility without reducing the captured resolution, but these scopes seem to be few and far between (I think the new Tek scopes do this, but others have in the past too despite the Tek marketing droids claiming it as revolutionary).

I hope some day we can see Siglent add also this warning about clipping or possible clipping warning (and add bit more wide analog front end linear range before ADC and then accept more sharp clipping (what produce lot of harmonics and for avoid this, there need be warning about clipping - of course also now this warning is good to have (example so that there is  bottom and top some band and ADC data show signal there --> warning.)
Of course it is nice to wish and more nice to see many things... like free lounges..

SMB784:
Again comparing to the RTB2k (and also the new Tek scopes) - this does what you want (enabled channels have lit LEDs behind their respective panel buttons), but this scope also has the ability to light up the knobs with the currently selected channel's colour (via RGB LEDs behind the panel). This means that you can tell BOTH which channels are on and which channel is currently selected for adjustment - unfortunately hard to do without the multicoloured LED thing or referring to the screen. Without this it's always going to be a compromise as to how the use the channel button LEDs - it's never going to be right for everyone. Both of my examples are well above the Siglent price point though (and have their own quirks) so I think it's hard to criticise a few compromises and limitations like this!

Channels what are active is always displayed with information box right side of display and also marked with channel color. There is channel number what can not see far away but there is also channel color, what I can see least many meters distance even when my eyes are bad and quite old. Even if I turn all active traces out from display I can see what are active channels turned on, and of course also what channel is selected for adjustments. These 4 buttons have channel colored leds.
(but still I think display is better if do not turn off this information box in display. Only make it bit more dark gray (and no colors) and keep these text visible so I know even without turning channel on what are this channel current settings (some times it is possible nice to know) but more I think that it is more ergonomy if these information boxes vertical positions do not change depending what are selected on or off.

How ever I think and investigate this question with scope and different environments I still can not imagine how there can be any - even small - difficult to immediately know what channels are active on and what channel is selected for adjustments. No need even read anything, even the peripheral part of the field of vision is sufficient for observation.
Except in one also important situation: And this is: if user have some mode of some kind of color detection problems in eyes (also this is solved if off channels info box still stay in place but without colors and some amount dimmed.) Or some other rare specific perception problem but then need question, how far we need go to some very extremely rare specialities in usability.
Perhaps also in some special lightning situations but they are not very common in normal lab environment.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: GregDunn on July 10, 2018, 06:54:54 pm
I've been running some tests, both to familiarize myself with the operation of the scope and to measure a few things which are cumbersome to do with a less capable piece of test gear.  And while I'm glad to have so much functionality in the scope, sometimes things which are very different in operation from an old analog unit cause me some confusion.

Here's a test of a Class D audio amp.  You can't measure the output directly with a common-ground scope because the outputs float.  So the easy workaround is to use two channels (3-4) and Math mode to difference them.  That seems to work fine.  But I've seen a couple of puzzling things and I'm sure it's just my inexperience with a DSO which is hampering me.

1) The manual says "if the analog channel or the math function is cut off (waveforms do not display on the screen completely), the resulting math will also be cut off."  Fair enough - though I wish the Math function was implemented earlier in the processing chain.  But in order to get good resolution on the Math calculation, I need to have the sensitivity set high enough on the two amp output channels so that I don't get bit truncation on the math (I tried it with lower sensitivity on CH3-4 and the Math waveform was really ugly).  This causes the CH3-4 waveforms to go off the screen, and as you can see in the screenshot, the Math waveform is already starting to show the effects of this.

2) So I can't move the waveforms offscreen and if they're onscreen the display gets really cluttered.  For some types of analysis, I really don't want to see CH3-4 on the screen - it prevents me from getting a good look at the output; however, I can't find anything about an option to turn off display of an active channel.  What am I overlooking?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 10, 2018, 07:18:06 pm
Greg, are you using the webrowser to control the scope or just to grab the screenshot ?

To reduce the display clutter can you use a lower sensitivity setting (V/div) on all channels, Maths included. ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: GregDunn on July 10, 2018, 07:38:46 pm
I'm just using it for a screenshot because I can go to my upstairs computer and capture without fussing around with a USB drive; all my operations were done from the front panel.

The problem with reducing sensitivity is that when I turned down sensitivity on CH3-4 for this test, the Math waveform degraded substantially.  IMHO it's using the lower values (post-attenuation) to calculate the waveform and if the amplitude of the source channels displayed is too low, the Math waveform suffers badly from bit truncation.  I can post an example of this if it's not clear what I'm describing.

Meanwhile, I found that turning the trace brightness down affects everything except the Math waveform, so that is a workable alternative - again, unless I am overlooking an option.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 10, 2018, 07:48:19 pm
I'm just using it for a screenshot because I can go to my upstairs computer and capture without fussing around with a USB drive; all my operations were done from the front panel.

The problem with reducing sensitivity is that when I turned down sensitivity on CH3-4 for this test, the Math waveform degraded substantially.  IMHO it's using the lower values (post-attenuation) to calculate the waveform and if the amplitude of the source channels displayed is too low, the Math waveform suffers badly from bit truncation.  I can post an example of this if it's not clear what I'm describing.

Meanwhile, I found that turning the trace brightness down affects everything except the Math waveform, so that is a workable alternative - again, unless I am overlooking an option.
Hmmm
Memory depth might be your issue here and it's related to timebase settings.....can you still work with a slower timebase setting ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: GregDunn on July 11, 2018, 01:00:19 am
No, I've tried setting the timebase to extreme values and it doesn't change at all.  It really does look like the Math function is working with too little vertical resolution on the source waveforms.  At the sensitivity I'm using here they look pretty pixilated as well, though the input signal is fine.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 11, 2018, 01:17:04 am
No, I've tried setting the timebase to extreme values and it doesn't change at all.  It really does look like the Math function is working with too little vertical resolution on the source waveforms.  At the sensitivity I'm using here they look pretty pixilated as well, though the input signal is fine.
Actually you've gone the other way to what I meant.  :)
By speeding up the timebase you've halved the available memory when I meant slowing for for memory depth.  ;)

Best I have a fiddle with this too so to get a better picture of what's going on.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: GregDunn on July 11, 2018, 02:50:04 am
Right, I went both ways to the scope limits - that's what I meant by "extremes".  No change unfortunately; the shape of the waveform is pretty much the same no matter what timebase I choose, unless I increase the vertical sensitivity.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 11, 2018, 06:06:19 am
Greg, I've tried to replicate your measured values some to keep things in context and the way to clean the traces up is to use Eres and the full 3 bits of enhancement available.

I've got no signal on ch3 as it's only ON to reduce the sampling rate to what you have.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=473591)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: GregDunn on July 11, 2018, 06:33:15 am
All eres  +3 bits seems to do is clear up the waveform jitter.  If I have sensitivity set too low (here 50V to make it obvious), the resolution of the Math waveform is heavily degraded.  At normal sensitivity, with or without eres, the Math waveform looks fine.  I note that you're using a sensitivity of 500mV which makes the source waveforms take up a large part of the screen and so would probably look even better than the 2V I use.  I stopped at 2V only because I didn't want to change the offset of the waveforms between captures to keep them on the screen at the higher sensitivity.

It really seems that the Math is performed on the data after it has been scaled to the screen values, and so there's no way to reduce sensitivity without also reducing the quality of the Math waveform generated. :-//  I can deal with this, but I just wanted to be sure I wasn't overlooking an obvious mistake in setup.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 11, 2018, 06:50:00 am
Where's the ripple on waveforms 3 and 4 coming from ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on July 11, 2018, 07:48:56 am
No, I've tried setting the timebase to extreme values and it doesn't change at all.  It really does look like the Math function is working with too little vertical resolution on the source waveforms.  At the sensitivity I'm using here they look pretty pixilated as well, though the input signal is fine.

Waveforms vertical resolution come from 8 bit ADC.  ADC full scale is around 10 vertical division on display.
One ADC step is 2 display pixel. Now your scale is then multiplied by 5 (your channels are 50V div and Math is 10V div (50/10=5). So, your Math trace steps on the display are now 10 pixel height)
This same happen if you capture signal, stop scope and zoom in vertically) It do not use interpolation between math result data points or other tricks for produce more nice looking "art" image.

Now also original traces CH3 and CH4 looks smooth. These waves update rate is much higher than Math trace and there is several waveforms overlayed in every TFT frame. If you change Acquistion mode from fast (default) manually to Slow then these all waveforms are updated around same speed, one wfm one TFT frame. Very specially it can see if you change display mode to Dots and then change between fast and slow acquisition mode.

What ever you use: Trace average or ERES result is always 8bit but method is different and for different needs.  (and example some manufacturer advertise 12 bit after box car averaging. Result is 8 bit and nothing more.)

Also if use display mode Vector it is wise some times to look with interpolation Sin(x)/x on and off. (in Vector display mode. Dots mode do not use interpolation at all.

But then. Also there is possible something wrong in Math if Math sources a A and B are from different ADC groups. (CH1 and 2 is group one and CH3 and 4 is group 2 ... because there is 2 ADC's)

Math function FFT have display mode "Exclusive" and this display mode turn source display off.
I hope Siglent add this display function available also with other Math functions.
Now example with CH1 - CH2 only thing what user can do is dim A and B traces to minimum but even then they are very visible.

But, because Math is not only function where example I miss feature that I can shut off channel trace display but only display. Example some times if I need use one channel just as Ext Trig and I do not want this signal is always visible.  If Siglent develop this (and with good ergonomy-usability) but it need experienced and intelligent UI designer, not only programmer, then it also can use with some Math functions.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: StillTrying on July 11, 2018, 12:35:09 pm
2) So I can't move the waveforms offscreen and if they're onscreen the display gets really cluttered.  For some types of analysis, I really don't want to see CH3-4 on the screen - it prevents me from getting a good look at the output; however,

I would think you could press STOP and then move CH3-4 off screen, - not ideal but it should leave you with just the input and MATH waveforms on screen.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: innkeeper on July 11, 2018, 05:01:58 pm
Is the SAG1021 the only option compatible with the bode plotting, or can it be used with other siglent AWG's?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on July 11, 2018, 05:35:54 pm
Is the SAG1021 the only option compatible with the bode plotting, or can it be used with other siglent AWG's?

I believe any Siglent AWG's will work. I'm using an SDG1062X, no license needed either :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: GregDunn on July 11, 2018, 06:45:02 pm
Tautech: it's a cheap Class D amplifier; that is the switching (PWM) signal leaking through on the output at approximately 600KHz.  Normal for low-end Class D amps.

rf-loop: yes, and thanks for the added viewpoint.  I'm using CH3-4 so the same ADC.

StillTrying: no, even in STOP mode Math takes into account the values and locations of the source waveforms.  It causes the same problem as though I were in RUN mode.   :(

Appreciate all the comments; I think I've figured out what's going on and will be able to deal with it now.  As rf-loop notes, there are other good reasons to be able to enable/disable trace display and it would be handy if Siglent looks at this for a future release.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: innkeeper on July 11, 2018, 09:13:05 pm
Is the SAG1021 the only option compatible with the bode plotting, or can it be used with other siglent AWG's?

I believe any Siglent AWG's will work. I'm using an SDG1062X, no license needed either :)
very cool :-+ :-+
i count find any write-up on it on siglents site.
i wonder if its just the X series AWG's?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 11, 2018, 09:28:10 pm
Is the SAG1021 the only option compatible with the bode plotting, or can it be used with other siglent AWG's?

I believe any Siglent AWG's will work. I'm using an SDG1062X, no license needed either :)
very cool :-+ :-+
i count find any write-up on it on siglents site.
i wonder if its just the X series AWG's?
I no longer have any pre X model AWG so I can't say for certain but as far as we know all Siglent AWG's can be tethered to SDS1*04X-E models to perform Bode plots.

This from the User manual:
http://old.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/manual/SDS1000X-E_UserManul_UM0101E-E03A.pdf (http://old.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/manual/SDS1000X-E_UserManul_UM0101E-E03A.pdf)
P219/229
The bode plot application for the SDS1000X-E (only 4 channels scope supports this
application) controls a external arbitrary waveform generator(AWG, only the Siglent’s
arbitrary waveform generator can be supported
) to sweep a sine wave across a range of
frequencies while measuring the input to and output from a device under test (DUT). At
each frequency, gain and phase are measured and plotted on a Bode chart.

And later:
USB Connect the oscilloscope USB Host to the external AWG’s USB Device via a USB cable.
LAN Connect the oscilloscope and the external AWG to your local area network.
 If LAN is selected, press IP softkey, a dialog box named “IP” will pop up; then; turn the universal knob to enter the value. The IP is the external AWG’s IP.
 Press Test Connection softkey to check the connection.

You can do direct LAN connection but IP configuration becomes important to get exactly correct. It is much simpler through a network switch.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: innkeeper on July 14, 2018, 03:55:54 am
anyone have problems with long PSK's on wifi?
I am using a long PSK ~25 characters long with spaces in it, and it doesn't seem to be working.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 14, 2018, 04:08:56 am
anyone have problems with long PSK's on wifi?
I am using a long PSK ~25 characters long with spaces in it, and it doesn't seem to be working.
So I'm guessing you can't connect.
Is WiFi finding your access point with no problem ?

If you have more than one be sure to select the correct one before keying in the PSK password.
And just to check, which model USB dongle are you using ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: innkeeper on July 14, 2018, 04:57:03 am
So I'm guessing you can't connect.
Is WiFi finding your access point with no problem ?

If you have more than one be sure to select the correct one before keying in the PSK password.
And just to check, which model USB dongle are you using ?
it's finding the access point, no problems.
yes, connecting to the correct one.
usb dongle is TL-WN725N
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 14, 2018, 05:18:47 am
So I'm guessing you can't connect.
Is WiFi finding your access point with no problem ?

If you have more than one be sure to select the correct one before keying in the PSK password.
And just to check, which model USB dongle are you using ?
it's finding the access point, no problems.
yes, connecting to the correct one.
usb dongle is TL-WN725N
Thanks.
I'll check mine to see if there's a character # constraint/limit.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: innkeeper on July 14, 2018, 05:23:44 am
additional info.

so i created a guest network with a short password, and still, it didn't work.
i changed the guest network from WPA2 to WPA, and it connects. unfortunately, the guest network is isolated and only usable for internet access, so it's not a solution

so its coming funky with it authenticating/connecting via WPA2.

i must have 30+ devices on my network all connecting via wpa2, so i am fairly confident it is not a router issue.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 14, 2018, 05:52:27 am
additional info.

so i created a guest network with a short password, and still, it didn't work.
i changed the guest network from WPA2 to WPA, and it connects. unfortunately, the guest network is isolated and only usable for internet access, so it's not a solution

so its coming funky with it authenticating/connecting via WPA2.

i must have 30+ devices on my network all connecting via wpa2, so i am fairly confident it is not a router issue.
OK so it would seem you have the PSK character set correct.
Hmmm

From the datasheet:
802.11b/g/n, WPA-PSK, the adapter must be supplied by Siglent to ensure working. (yeah right, we know the gold version works !)


Does your adapter have a silver body or gold ?
The gold body TL-WN725N on the box lists WPA-PSK and WPA2-PSK capability.
The gold body version was originally the only one supported however recent FW changes allowed for silver body  TL-WN725N usage too.

Interesting, anyone else ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: innkeeper on July 14, 2018, 05:58:29 am
OK so it would seem you have the PSK character set correct.
Hmmm

From the datasheet:
802.11b/g/n, WPA-PSK, the adapter must be supplied by Siglent to ensure working. (yeah right, we know the gold version works !)


Does your adapter have a silver body or gold ?
The gold body TL-WN725N on the box lists WPA-PSK and WPA2-PSK capability.
The gold body version was originally the only one supported however recent FW changes allowed for silver body  TL-WN725N usage too.

Interesting, anyone else ?

it has a gold body, it is a TL-WN725N V3
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on July 17, 2018, 06:40:33 am
Hello,
I noticed a couple of things that can be confusing to new users who just started using the device.
Moment N1:

Imagine the trigger was set to channel 3:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=478022;image)

Later you turned the channel 3 off and the trigger settings became invalid i.e. the trigger will not work although you still see on the screen the trigger info box and the trigger level icon (in blue):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=478028;image)

One could say - the user has enough info/hints on the screen to figure out that the trigger will not work and this is true to some extend - enough if you know where to find those hints on the screen. Another way to tell the user that the trigger is basically disabled is to make  the trigger info box or the trigger level icon or the button blink (red color is great for this purpose) to immediately inform the user that the trigger is assigned to the disabled channel.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on July 17, 2018, 06:48:38 am
anyone have problems with long PSK's on wifi?
I am using a long PSK ~25 characters long with spaces in it, and it doesn't seem to be working.
There is a bug with network SSIDs which contain spaces. The scope will see this network but won't be able to connect to it.

Siglent confirmed this bug but I don't know when it will be fixed.

My WiFi dongle was not supplied by Siglent and works fine with networks without spaces in SSIDs.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on July 17, 2018, 07:01:44 am
I have found a new bug in bode plots.

When the waveform cursors are shown on the waveform screen, the bode cursors on the bode plot won't move.

To reproduce the bug:
1. Display a waveform.
2. Show the cursors (using Cursors button).
3. Enter the bode plot mode and build a bode plot.
4. Show the bode cursors.
5. Try to move the cursors on the bode plot. They'll not move.

To be able to move the cursors on the bode plot return to the waveform screen and hide the cursors. Return to the bode plot. Now the bode cursors will move as expected.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bugi on July 17, 2018, 07:16:03 am
Quote
Another way to tell the user that the trigger is basically disabled is to make  the trigger info box or the trigger level icon or the button blink (red color is great for this purpose) to immediately inform the user that the trigger is assigned to the disabled channel.
Actually, if considering colors for indication of statuses, red isn't great for that particular purpose.
Red is typically meant for things that can result in damage (to living or non-living things) if not paid attention to, or for the cases that are simply disallowed (without a good reason, say, emergency break). The typical color for other kinds of warnings would be yellow.  Of course, they are not that set in stone, and what to use may depend on the context.

Other than that, in general, it would be helpful if a scope would indicate any kind of reason why something would not work (be it signal out of range, trigger channel being off, or edge trigger being driven by input set to ground, whatnot, etc.), if and when the scope can detect such a situation. I tend to bump into "why does it not show the stuff" or "why is it not triggering, signal goes right there" situations almost every time I use my scope. Sometimes wasting tens of minutes to finally figure out some obscure setting buried deep somewhere, which I had perhaps tried a little earlier and forgot I changed it.  (And I am still trying hard to make myself remember that nice button which returns to the default settings.)  (I have to slightly compensate my noobness by noting that at least for the triggering issues, they have sometimes been obvious bugs and/or limitations of the hardware. It is just sometimes difficult to figure out whether the reason is in the device or the user; in the latter case spending time to adjust settings would help, in the former it is usually a waste of time.)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 17, 2018, 01:52:48 pm
Hello,
I noticed a couple of things that can be confusing to new users who just started using the device.
All things to new users of DSO's are confusing !

This is why the Autoset button is added.

We must remember the most powerful tool in oscilloscope use is the ..................... TRIGGER !
Learning how to use it, assign it and its advanced features are mandatory to competent use of a scope, any scope.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on July 17, 2018, 04:04:11 pm
Other than that, in general, it would be helpful if a scope would indicate any kind of reason why something would not work (be it signal out of range, trigger channel being off, or edge trigger being driven by input set to ground, whatnot, etc.), if and when the scope can detect such a situation. I tend to bump into "why does it not show the stuff" or "why is it not triggering, signal goes right there" situations almost every time I use my scope. Sometimes wasting tens of minutes to finally figure out some obscure setting buried deep somewhere, which I had perhaps tried a little earlier and forgot I changed it.

I fully agree with bugi  although I don't wasting tens of minutes for troubleshooting of those things.

We must remember the most powerful tool in oscilloscope use is the ..................... TRIGGER !
Learning how to use it, assign it and its advanced features are mandatory to competent use of a scope, any scope.

Sorry, this is just a general statement like saying "water is wet". Sure, users have to learn how to use their DSO, DMM, to drive the car,  to respect older people etc. But its also clear that the thoroughly designed and implemented  User Interface of a device should avoid displaying incorrect/misleading information. In other words those things (users' education and proper implementation) are not mutually exclusive, they are complementary.

tautech, I have a question for you  :)  Can you please  check the screenshot shown below and describe the signal/trace for the channel 3? Thanks!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=478280;image)


This is why the Autoset button is added.

Life would be wonderful is the Autoset button could be a single solution for all problems but it is not.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
Post by: 4x1md on July 17, 2018, 11:09:49 pm

Quote
If it is to drive a non-Siglent AWG, maybe they can charge for it.
Maybe ?  :-//
It's very unlikely command protocols will work with other brands.

When doing Bode plots the AWG is swept through many frequencies/second so commands must be correct.
Plotting bode plot with a non-Siglent AWG is possible with a protocol translation software.

At certain point after getting the SDG1204X-E oscilloscope I wanted to know if it might be possible to use the bode plot function with a non-Siglent waveform generator.

After some researching and fuzzing I wrote a program in Python which acts as a small server. The oscilloscope connects to it using LAN and the program makes it think that it communicates with a genuine Siglent AWG. The program extracts the commands sent by the scope to the generator, parses them and translates to the command set, that the connected to the PC non-Siglent AWG is able to understand.

The video shows bode plot of an LPF with R=1kOhm and C=0.22μF. On the left you may see my program running on a netbook. For the first try I took the well known JDS6600 generator which is sold on eBay/AliExpress. Later I'll add drivers for two more AWG models.
That surly will be of interest to the community.
Quote
I hope to have during the next weeks enough free time to publish the program on GitHub with detailed description on how it works.
Great work and looking forward to your further efforts.  :-+

Finally, I published the code on GitHub:

https://github.com/4x1md/sds1004x_bode (https://github.com/4x1md/sds1004x_bode)

I also started a new topic for questions and discussing:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-and-sds1204x-e-bode-plot-with-non-siglent-awg/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-and-sds1204x-e-bode-plot-with-non-siglent-awg/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: innkeeper on July 18, 2018, 05:13:36 pm
Just revisiting my wifi WPA2 issue.

does anyone have their wifi adapter working with WPA2 (not WPA)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: youthsonic on July 21, 2018, 06:40:30 pm
Just revisiting my wifi WPA2 issue.

does anyone have their wifi adapter working with WPA2 (not WPA)

Yes. Just got mine working with the gold body TP Link, and I am running WPA2 Personal with PSK. My encryption type is AES/CCMP. I don't have any spaces or special characters in either my SSID or my password
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: innkeeper on July 22, 2018, 12:26:48 am
Very interesting. I'll see if I can run a test with a simple password.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 22, 2018, 01:09:34 am
Very interesting. I'll see if I can run a test with a simple password.
Thanks and if you can then add a space into it like when you had problems earlier.
I've emailed tech support but haven't heard anything back.  :-//

Thanks for looking deeper into this.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: youthsonic on July 22, 2018, 01:31:31 am
Very interesting. I'll see if I can run a test with a simple password.

Probably worth noting that I'm running the latest official firmware/software, PLUS the firmware that changes the root pw.
My WiFi is Ubiquiti Unifi series, too, just for more information.

I'm a lifelong IT guy, so can help in any way you need
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: innkeeper on July 23, 2018, 06:26:40 pm
Very interesting. I'll see if I can run a test with a simple password.

Probably worth noting that I'm running the latest official firmware/software, PLUS the firmware that changes the root pw.
My WiFi is Ubiquiti Unifi series, too, just for more information.

I'm a lifelong IT guy, so can help in any way you need
:) same here lastest fw / root pw, and I'm a and old IT guy ..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on July 23, 2018, 10:37:17 pm
Some suggestions to Siglent about messages and captions on the screen.

1. The captions on the screen should be in front of the waveforms and not transparent or almost not transparent. Currently they often become unreadable when they are crossed by waveforms.
2. I think it will be better if the cursors data moves to the upper right corner. Currently any waveform in the center of the screen makes them unreadable.
3. There is a caption which is shown when adjusting a waveform offset or vertical resolution. It will be better if the color of its text will follow the color of the waveform.
4. It looks like on the screenshot with the vertical resolution adjustment the caption must be "500mV/div" and not "500mv/".
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on July 24, 2018, 03:24:47 am
:) same here lastest fw / root pw, and I'm a and old IT guy ..

Is it possible to modify files in the RFS to allow third party wifi dongles without having the official software key?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 24, 2018, 05:43:08 am
:) same here lastest fw / root pw, and I'm a and old IT guy ..

Is it possible to modify files in the RFS to allow third party wifi dongles without having the official software key?
Bob Sava worked around this by adding an external WiFi module connected to the LAN port.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/cheap-wifi-for-sds1000x-e/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/cheap-wifi-for-sds1000x-e/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: timgiles on July 27, 2018, 04:15:32 pm
On the WIFI front - I found I needed to turn DHCP on to grab an IP (which I then set in my router) and then turn it off to keep those settings - otherwise the 1104XE was constantly disconnecting and reconnecting for some reason. Rock solid once DHCP turned off and the IP saved.

Would be nice if they had supported a 5/2.4 dongle - dont like having to have a 2.4 network just for the scope... Feels so... 2010!?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ironcurtain on July 28, 2018, 05:03:20 pm
The forum software is quite a PITA when you need to search the thread...

I have gone through almost all the pages, but it is not clear if anyone made progress towards a software unlock of some of the features. The SSA from Siglent use the same underlying Linux OS and licensing system. If time permits I can reverse engineer ELF executables and libraries involved, if someone zips them up for me.

At the moment, what is the status of hacking these to unlock options? ex. AWG, Wifi module support.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on July 28, 2018, 05:59:51 pm
The forum software is quite a PITA when you need to search the thread...

At the moment, what is the status of hacking these to unlock options? ex. AWG, Wifi module support.

Yeah, it isn't the most user friendly.  The convention has usually been a thread on the device then a separate thread for the hacks to the device.  Check here for the answers you seek:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-hack-to-200mhz-and-full-options/msg1664507/#msg1664507 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-hack-to-200mhz-and-full-options/msg1664507/#msg1664507)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ironcurtain on July 28, 2018, 06:13:02 pm
The forum software is quite a PITA when you need to search the thread...

At the moment, what is the status of hacking these to unlock options? ex. AWG, Wifi module support.

Yeah, it isn't the most user friendly.  The convention has usually been a thread on the device then a separate thread for the hacks to the device.  Check here for the answers you seek:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-hack-to-200mhz-and-full-options/msg1664507/#msg1664507 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-hack-to-200mhz-and-full-options/msg1664507/#msg1664507)

Thanks Bill, I move over there.

BTW, I own an actual SDS1204X-E... I do want to open up the options but I can't find the firmware for the 204 anywhere.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on July 28, 2018, 06:55:03 pm
Thanks Bill, I move over there.

BTW, I own an actual SDS1204X-E... I do want to open up the options but I can't find the firmware for the 204 anywhere.

Sorry, I didn't realize you had the 1204.  You are correct, all the hacks are the same but the firmware is different.  I don't know if a hacked version of that is available.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on July 28, 2018, 07:47:08 pm
Don't understand the confusion.

The SDS1x04X-E range has all the same FW.  (product_id 13501)

The SDS1202X-E is product_id 13000.

See my parsings in
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/msg1335892/#msg1335892 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/msg1335892/#msg1335892)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on July 28, 2018, 08:44:21 pm
Don't understand the confusion.

The SDS1x04X-E range has all the same FW.  (product_id 13501)


Doh!   :palm:  You're right, of course.  I don't know what I was thinking.  :-/O
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on July 29, 2018, 02:47:55 pm
[Bug] [Security] SDS1104X-E/SDS1204X-E WiFi WPA2 PSK

There are annoying BUGS related to Wifi (WPA2/AES) passwords:

WiFi: WPA2 PSK has a max length of 63 characters but SDS1104X-E/SDS1204X-E truncates PSK to 20 characters. :palm: :rant:
My PSK is longer than 20 characters. I do not want to lower the security by using a PSK of max 20 characters so the WiFi option currently is a nogo. Please comply with official WiFi specs.

Also the PSK is displayed in clear text in the WiFi Settings menu. This is fine while entering the PSK but this is not fine once the settings are confirmed.
When the WiFi Settings menu is re-opened the PSK is displayed in clear text again so everyone with access to the scope can see the WiFi key which is not good. :scared:

I hope that Siglent will address these security issues in a firmware update.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on July 29, 2018, 03:02:17 pm
[Suggestion] for new SDS1104X-E/SDS1204X-E features

Use channel's color as accent color (where relevant):
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on July 29, 2018, 03:25:27 pm
[Suggestion] for new SDS1104X-E/SDS1204X-E features

Add 'Selected' channel for measurements:

2018-07-31 updated: Changed Current to Selected.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 31, 2018, 07:38:04 am
[Suggestion]
Suggestion for new SDS1104X-E/SDS1204X-E feature:

For Measure: in addition to channels CH1, CH2, CH3 and CH4 add an additional channel named Current.
Current is the currently selected channel (selected via the Channel Buttons).

This way Measured Items can be simply displayed for each channel by simply switching the currently selected channel via the channel buttons, without having to change the source and having to add items for that source each time.

Similarly, when setting Source to Current and selecting 'All Measure On', it should display all measured items for the 'currently selected channel' (the channel selected via the channel buttons).
This makes it possible to quickly switch the source channel via the channel buttons, without having to change the channel via 'Source' in the menu (which is slow and does not allow to quickly switch between measurements per channel).
Very good idea.  :-+
All 3 of your suggestions have been forwarded to the X-E product manager.

If Selected was used instead of Current there could be less resultant confusion.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on July 31, 2018, 07:53:05 am
If possible would be great to have more than 4 measure element at the same time without using the all measure on feature.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on July 31, 2018, 08:14:40 am
Very good idea.  :-+
All 3 of your suggestions have been forwarded to the X-E product manager.

If Selected was used instead of Current there could be less resultant confusion.

Thanks.  :)

I agree. Using Selected instead of Current is more to the point, more clear and will prevent possible confusion.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 31, 2018, 08:28:31 am
If possible would be great to have more than 4 measure element at the same time without using the all measure on feature.
This has been asked about before and I have given some thoughts.
Siglent has always tried to keep the main display area clean and uncluttered (All Measure excluded) so to display 4+ could go against what they have tried to maintain, a clean clear display for the most part.

So how to display more than 4 ?
I think a solution might be to enable 4+ only when the Menu is hidden so the addition measurements can be placed into the vacant Menu area.

I have not discussed this with Siglent yet so I ask for your support for Siglent to fully consider a method to display 4+ measurements.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on July 31, 2018, 08:37:27 am
If possible would be great to have more than 4 measure element at the same time without using the all measure on feature.
This has been asked about before and I have given some thoughts.
Siglent has always tried to keep the main display area clean and uncluttered (All Measure excluded) so to display 4+ could go against what they have tried to maintain, a clean clear display for the most part.

So how to display more than 4 ?
I think a solution might be to enable 4+ only when the Menu is hidden so the addition measurements can be placed into the vacant Menu area.

I have not discussed this with Siglent yet so I ask for your support for Siglent to fully consider a method to display 4+ measurements.

A possible way to implement this could be to add a kind of 'remote measurements display', similar to the current remote web interface but only (or additionally) displaying the measurements.
Using the (W)LAN interfaces (and possibly USB).
A remote measurements display could display many parameters and values without cluttering the scope display.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on July 31, 2018, 08:38:34 am
If possible would be great to have more than 4 measure element at the same time without using the all measure on feature.
This has been asked about before and I have given some thoughts.
Siglent has always tried to keep the main display area clean and uncluttered (All Measure excluded) so to display 4+ could go against what they have tried to maintain, a clean clear display for the most part.

So how to display more than 4 ?
I think a solution might be to enable 4+ only when the Menu is hidden so the addition measurements can be placed into the vacant Menu area.

I have not discussed this with Siglent yet so I ask for your support for Siglent to fully consider a method to display 4+ measurements.

yes.. using the menu area for displaying 4+ measures would be great in particular because when the menu is hidden that space is always free
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 31, 2018, 08:51:31 am
If possible would be great to have more than 4 measure element at the same time without using the all measure on feature.
This has been asked about before and I have given some thoughts.
Siglent has always tried to keep the main display area clean and uncluttered (All Measure excluded) so to display 4+ could go against what they have tried to maintain, a clean clear display for the most part.

So how to display more than 4 ?
I think a solution might be to enable 4+ only when the Menu is hidden so the addition measurements can be placed into the vacant Menu area.

I have not discussed this with Siglent yet so I ask for your support for Siglent to fully consider a method to display 4+ measurements.

yes.. using the menu area for displaying 4+ measures would be great in particular because when the menu is hidden that space is always free
No, not always as it can be taken by Decoding when the Menu is hidden.
But the engineers can have Decode override Measures when it is active.......so we can't have everything.  :(
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on July 31, 2018, 09:03:28 am
If possible would be great to have more than 4 measure element at the same time without using the all measure on feature.
This has been asked about before and I have given some thoughts.
Siglent has always tried to keep the main display area clean and uncluttered (All Measure excluded) so to display 4+ could go against what they have tried to maintain, a clean clear display for the most part.

So how to display more than 4 ?
I think a solution might be to enable 4+ only when the Menu is hidden so the addition measurements can be placed into the vacant Menu area.

I have not discussed this with Siglent yet so I ask for your support for Siglent to fully consider a method to display 4+ measurements.

yes.. using the menu area for displaying 4+ measures would be great in particular because when the menu is hidden that space is always free
No, not always as it can be taken by Decoding when the Menu is hidden.
But the engineers can have Decode override Measures when it is active.......so we can't have everything.  :(

can we use measure and decoding together? never tried... but in this case decoding can override measures.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 31, 2018, 09:10:55 am
Have a fiddle with your scopes guys and tell us what suits you all best.
The engineers will look at suggestions and decide on the best way to implement it.
But the more and better info they get always helps.

Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on July 31, 2018, 11:38:59 am
[Suggestion] for new SDS1104X-E/SDS1204X-E features

The readability of text overlays is poor. Here are suggestions to FIX it:

Improve the readability of overlays (e.g. 'All Measure On'):

Information like 'All Measure On' is displayed as overlay on top of the channel signals.
The overlay text consists of light colors and is currently displayed on a white transparent background.
Transparency of the white overlay background can currently be adjusted from 20% to 80%.

When using light overlay text a black overlay background provides better readability than a white background.
With a black overlay background the underlying picture (the channel signals) becomes (a bit) darker but the overlay text and overall picture are better readable.
Below picture demonstrates this (see black background with 40% and lower transparency levels.)

The picture shows examples of black and white overlay backgrounds with different transparency levels. The four colored lines simulate the channel signals.
(For a better impression download to see in full resolution.)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=488291)
Picture created with GIMP. Opacity values are as used by GIMP.

Last updated: 2019-01-08
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on July 31, 2018, 11:44:13 am
Have a fiddle with your scopes guys and tell us what suits you all best.
The engineers will look at suggestions and decide on the best way to implement it.
But the more and better info they get always helps.

Please see the following messages:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1695410/#msg1695410 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1695410/#msg1695410)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1678100/#msg1678100 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1678100/#msg1678100)

One contains suggestions and one is about a bug in Bode plot.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: firstcolle on July 31, 2018, 12:04:25 pm
To me this could be one solution:
4 rows one for each channel with selectable parameters. the first row in the same position as now so can be visible also with the menu activated, the others rows visible only if there's no active menu.

i like also the bluejedi's solution
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Hydron on August 01, 2018, 05:20:23 pm
[Suggestion]
Suggestion for new SDS1104X-E/SDS1204X-E feature:

For Measure: in addition to channels CH1, CH2, CH3 and CH4 add an additional channel named Current Selected.
Selected is the currently selected channel (selected via the Channel Buttons).

This way Measured Items can be simply displayed for each channel by simply switching the currently selected channel via the channel buttons, without having to change the source and having to add items for that source each time.

Similarly, when setting Source to Selected and selecting 'All Measure On', it should display all measured items for the 'currently selected channel' (the channel selected via the channel buttons).
This makes it possible to quickly switch the source channel via the channel buttons, without having to change the channel via 'Source' in the menu (which is slow and does not allow to quickly switch between measurements per channel).

2018-07-31 updated: Changed Current to Selected.
I agree with tautech that this is a very good idea, have stolen (quoted) it as a suggestion in the R&S thread too. Thanks!
Title: How do i capture data over time
Post by: innkeeper on August 02, 2018, 04:41:58 pm
On my SDS1104X-E I want to capture 3 channels over time and plot the results.
I want to capture frequency on one channel and DC voltage on the other two.
I want to plot the results at about a 1 min resolution over a few hours.

how can I do this?

Thanks
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nemail on August 02, 2018, 11:05:53 pm
Hi

I've got that weird WebSock error: [object Event] problem when trying to access the Instrument control. I have upgraded my firmware version to 7.0.6.1.25 R2.
IP address is configured statically, neither chrome nor internet exploder works...

any idea?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nemail on August 02, 2018, 11:28:56 pm
nvm, had to update the OS as well... version is now 7.1.6.1.25 R2 instead of 7.0.6.1.25 R2.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 02, 2018, 11:42:45 pm
nvm, had to update the OS as well... version is now 7.1.6.1.25 R2 instead of 7.0.6.1.25 R2.
All OK now ?
The OS update is an important one and the web browser and remote command UI's have been updated.
Let us know if you're still having problems.
Title: Re: How do i capture data over time
Post by: innkeeper on August 04, 2018, 02:16:27 am
On my SDS1104X-E I want to capture 3 channels over time and plot the results.
I want to capture frequency on one channel and DC voltage on the other two.
I want to plot the results at about a 1 min resolution over a few hours.

how can I do this?

Thanks

well kinda answered my own question here.
best i can tell the only way to do data logging is write your own script...
which i did.  8) python and python-vxi11 logging it to a csv file!  :-+

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on August 19, 2018, 10:33:01 am
[Suggestion] for new SDS1104X-E/SDS1204X-E features

Add Time and Date support:

These scopes appear not to have a hardware RTC but it is still possible to get the actual time and date via the network.
For future models a hardware RTC with battery backup could be added to be independent of a network.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rene72 on August 19, 2018, 12:51:27 pm
Hi,

I am new here ;-)

Just wondering about this new firmware:

nvm, had to update the OS as well... version is now 7.1.6.1.25 R2 instead of 7.0.6.1.25 R2.

I got myself a SDS1204X-E last week, but I can't find firmware 6.1.25R2 for this model.

Do all 4-channel models share the same firmware? I.e. can I use the firmware for model SDS1004X-E for
my SDS1204X-E, or will this brick my scope?

Regarding firmware and OS upgrading: is it important to upgrade firmware first and then OS? Or OS first
and then firmware? Or is the order of upgrading not critical?

Thanks.






Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SaKhan on August 19, 2018, 01:25:02 pm
Hi and welcome to the forum. The 2 models 1104X-E and 1204X-E share the same firmware and OS. The latest firmware can be downloaded from here: https://www.siglenteu.com/download/6110/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/download/6110/) and the OS update from here: https://www.siglenteu.com/download/5934/. (https://www.siglenteu.com/download/5934/.) I updated first the firmware after which the system info showed 7.0.6.1.25 and then the OS, which bumped the version to 7.1.6.1.25. The instructions are also straightforward.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rene72 on August 19, 2018, 01:37:55 pm
Thanks, Sakhan.

Hi and welcome to the forum. The 2 models 1104X-E and 1204X-E share the same firmware and OS.
 The latest firmware can be downloaded from here: https://www.siglenteu.com/download/6110/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/download/6110/) and the OS update from here: https://www.siglenteu.com/download/5934/. (https://www.siglenteu.com/download/5934/.)

But those links refer to 1004X-E firmware and OS. Is this the same as 1104X-E and 1204X-E software?

Edit: Oh wait, there is no model 1004X-E, right?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on August 19, 2018, 01:53:08 pm
Edit: Oh wait, there is no model 1004X-E, right?

Right!

https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2018/06/SDS1000X-E_Release_Notes-3.pdf (https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2018/06/SDS1000X-E_Release_Notes-3.pdf)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rene72 on August 19, 2018, 03:56:23 pm
Right!

Confusing! But thanks.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nemail on August 25, 2018, 09:25:51 am
nvm, had to update the OS as well... version is now 7.1.6.1.25 R2 instead of 7.0.6.1.25 R2.
All OK now ?
The OS update is an important one and the web browser and remote command UI's have been updated.
Let us know if you're still having problems.
yeah all good now, thanks! one probe seems to be defective, though. already got an RMA confirmation from batronix.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 25, 2018, 09:36:17 am
nvm, had to update the OS as well... version is now 7.1.6.1.25 R2 instead of 7.0.6.1.25 R2.
All OK now ?
The OS update is an important one and the web browser and remote command UI's have been updated.
Let us know if you're still having problems.
yeah all good now, thanks! one probe seems to be defective, though. already got an RMA confirmation from batronix.
Great.  :)
Bad 1x, 10x switch ?
PP510 or the PP215 ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nemail on August 28, 2018, 06:09:24 am
Bad 1x, 10x switch ?
PP510 or the PP215 ?

If I recall correctly, it is the PP510. Bad contact at the BNC connector. Most of the time I have to fiddle around to get a contact and then, when I touch the connector while it is connected to the scope, it sometimes loses contact and the signal is lost. Other probes work flawlessly on that channel so I suspect the probe to be defective (i.e. the BNC connector of the probe).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on August 28, 2018, 09:39:17 am
If I recall correctly, it is the PP510. Bad contact at the BNC connector. Most of the time I have to fiddle around to get a contact and then, when I touch the connector while it is connected to the scope, it sometimes loses contact and the signal is lost. Other probes work flawlessly on that channel so I suspect the probe to be defective (i.e. the BNC connector of the probe).

Happens to me with PP215 too. Always have to move/touch the bnc connector to get a stable signal.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 28, 2018, 06:30:19 pm
If I recall correctly, it is the PP510. Bad contact at the BNC connector. Most of the time I have to fiddle around to get a contact and then, when I touch the connector while it is connected to the scope, it sometimes loses contact and the signal is lost. Other probes work flawlessly on that channel so I suspect the probe to be defective (i.e. the BNC connector of the probe).

Happens to me with PP215 too. Always have to move/touch the bnc connector to get a stable signal.
Have you tried swapping which channel it's connected to ?
Same result ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nemail on August 28, 2018, 06:52:43 pm
sure
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 28, 2018, 07:04:47 pm
sure
I know,  :) I can see that in your post.
I was just checking about Gabri74's probe.

If we have poor probes supplied to Siglent then we need to know, see some pattern and confront the probe manufacturer about a possible problem.
I have pointed Siglent managers to past/other probe problems and they are monitoring the situation.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SaKhan on August 29, 2018, 10:00:01 am
Anybody else 17.5 Mpts @250MSa/s with the latest firmware and OS? 
The exported CSV is 17.5 Mpts. This is the only sampling speed with 17.5 Mpts. Higher or lower sampling speed is 14 Mpts.

Btw. is there a setting to manually set the sampling speed? it is annoying to zoom out, take a single capture and zoom in again

Yes the displayed acquisition memory @250MSa/s is wrong, but I think it's just a cosmetic issue. Regarding the zoom in/out can you be more specific of what you are trying to achive?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on August 29, 2018, 12:10:12 pm
Anybody else 17.5 Mpts @250MSa/s with the latest firmware and OS? 
The exported CSV is 17.5 Mpts. This is the only sampling speed with 17.5 Mpts. Higher or lower sampling speed is 14 Mpts.

Btw. is there a setting to manually set the sampling speed? it is annoying to zoom out, take a single capture and zoom in again

Yes the displayed acquisition memory @250MSa/s is wrong, but I think it's just a cosmetic issue. Regarding the zoom in/out can you be more specific of what you are trying to achive?

Do you really know or do you just believe. Or is it somehow fun to talk "trumpths" aka alternative truths instead of truths (facts).

There is nothing wrong and 17.5M points is right, exactly.
It can also calculate simply. 14 Horizontal divs, 5ms/div and 250MSa/s. Just basic school math.
250000000/(1000/5)*14



And even better, checking facts from stored acquisition what do not leave any suspects.:

Scope: SDS1104X-E/SDS1204X-E  Version 7.1.6.1.25R2
Setup: One single acquisition. Ch1 on, others off, 5ms/div, 250MSa/s, displayed memory length 17.5M

Stored binary file to USB (17536160 bytes):
Read using hex editor.
First data byte position (Starting from byte 0) 
0x8D40
Last data byte position
0x10B949F
It is also last byte in file.

0x10B949F - 0x8D40 = 0x10B075F (data length 17499999+1=17500000 byte)

Btw, same setup .CSV size is ~400M  as also Matlab .DAT file.

And if do not believe math etc, also can zoom in and manually calculate every 17500000 data points but it takes while... ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SaKhan on August 29, 2018, 01:36:31 pm
Anybody else 17.5 Mpts @250MSa/s with the latest firmware and OS? 
The exported CSV is 17.5 Mpts. This is the only sampling speed with 17.5 Mpts. Higher or lower sampling speed is 14 Mpts.

Btw. is there a setting to manually set the sampling speed? it is annoying to zoom out, take a single capture and zoom in again

Yes the displayed acquisition memory @250MSa/s is wrong, but I think it's just a cosmetic issue. Regarding the zoom in/out can you be more specific of what you are trying to achive?

Do you really know or do you just believe. Or is it somehow fun to talk "trumpths" aka alternative truths instead of truths (facts).

There is nothing wrong and 17.5M points is right, exactly.
It can also calculate simply. 14 Horizontal divs, 5ms/div and 250MSa/s. Just basic school math.
250000000/(1000/5)*14



And even better, checking facts from stored acquisition what do not leave any suspects.:

Scope: SDS1104X-E/SDS1204X-E  Version 7.1.6.1.25R2
Setup: One single acquisition. Ch1 on, others off, 5ms/div, 250MSa/s, displayed memory length 17.5M

Stored binary file to USB (17536160 bytes):
Read using hex editor.
First data byte position (Starting from byte 0) 
0x8D40
Last data byte position
0x10B949F
It is also last byte in file.

0x10B949F - 0x8D40 = 0x10B075F (data length 17499999+1=17500000 byte)

Btw, same setup .CSV size is ~400M  as also Matlab .DAT file.

And if do not believe math etc, also can zoom in and manually calculate every 17500000 data points but it takes while... ;)

Sorry about the confusion. I have the same scope and saw it but didn't do the math. I was just referring to the specs which say max 14Mpts per channel and the 17.5 number looks odd at first.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on August 29, 2018, 02:41:14 pm
Anybody else 17.5 Mpts @250MSa/s with the latest firmware and OS? 
The exported CSV is 17.5 Mpts. This is the only sampling speed with 17.5 Mpts. Higher or lower sampling speed is 14 Mpts.

Btw. is there a setting to manually set the sampling speed? it is annoying to zoom out, take a single capture and zoom in again



Yes the displayed acquisition memory @250MSa/s is wrong, but I think it's just a cosmetic issue. Regarding the zoom in/out can you be more specific of what you are trying to achive?

Do you really know or do you just believe. Or is it somehow fun to talk "trumpths" aka alternative truths instead of truths (facts).

There is nothing wrong and 17.5M points is right, exactly.
It can also calculate simply. 14 Horizontal divs, 5ms/div and 250MSa/s. Just basic school math.
250000000/(1000/5)*14



And even better, checking facts from stored acquisition what do not leave any suspects.:

Scope: SDS1104X-E/SDS1204X-E  Version 7.1.6.1.25R2
Setup: One single acquisition. Ch1 on, others off, 5ms/div, 250MSa/s, displayed memory length 17.5M

Stored binary file to USB (17536160 bytes):
Read using hex editor.
First data byte position (Starting from byte 0) 
0x8D40
Last data byte position
0x10B949F
It is also last byte in file.

0x10B949F - 0x8D40 = 0x10B075F (data length 17499999+1=17500000 byte)

Btw, same setup .CSV size is ~400M  as also Matlab .DAT file.

And if do not believe math etc, also can zoom in and manually calculate every 17500000 data points but it takes while... ;)

Sorry about the confusion. I have the same scope and saw it but didn't do the math. I was just referring to the specs which say max 14Mpts per channel and the 17.5 number looks odd at first.

No problem. Only want right information to readers.

Using 5ms/div (only this) it can capture 17,5M max.
As there is two ADC and two acq. memory bank it can do 17.5M for two channels simultaneously if user select one CH from Ch1 or Ch2 (ADC1)and other channel from Ch3 or Ch4. (ADC2)
If user select two Ch from same bank mac is 7M for each channel. But also then samplerate is reduced. (5ms/div 100MSa/s)

It is also good to note that example using fast "segmented memory" acquisition there is more memory than just 14M.
Example 7574 segment for Ch1, each segment 7ksample total 53M. Or example Ch1 and Ch3 both 7ksample and both 7574 segments. Total over 100Msample. (this example using 500ns/div and Ch1or2 and Ch3or4 and max segments 7574 and samplerate for both channels 1GSa/s)
These are nearly up to numbers. This amount of memory is not available with all settings of course.
And same amount for always background running normal speed history buffer.
(note that history buffer is cleared always when change settings.)


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on September 01, 2018, 02:16:50 pm

Another thing regarding binary files. Siglent has a guide on their website: https://www.siglentamerica.com/operating-tip/extract-data-binary-file-sds2000x-sds1000x/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/operating-tip/extract-data-binary-file-sds2000x-sds1000x/) but it does not match what the actual file looks like. Do you had more success reading the file header?
For example 0x14 is 03 and according to siglents guide there should be mso_ch_open_state[0] (0 or 1 allowed).

I do not believe this old guide is up to date, even after they have added also X-E models in its title.
It is clear that this is not at all valid least for SDS1004X-E models.
Example if look where data starts. It is totally different.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: insine on September 01, 2018, 07:28:46 pm
I'm considering buying SDS1104X-E, but just noticed in the datasheet that UART triggering (so probably also decoding) works only to 334 kBaud.
I'm wondering if this is a marketing decision, or just they didn't think anyone needs more than that?
Modern MCUs can go over 10MBaud (for example STM32F4 has 11.25MBaud UART), so 334k is a really low limit.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 01, 2018, 07:41:46 pm
I'm considering buying SDS1104X-E, but just noticed in the datasheet that UART triggering (so probably also decoding) works only to 334 kBaud.
I'm wondering if this is a marketing decision, or just they didn't think anyone needs more than that?
Modern MCUs can go over 10MBaud (for example STM32F4 has 11.25MBaud UART), so 334k is a really low limit.
You asked the same question last December here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1367020/#msg1367020 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1367020/#msg1367020)
At that time we had FW version 7.6.1.12 and UART custom speed was Max 5M.

I can't say if that's changed sorry, I could check but all units are sold and my demo is out on loan.
Maybe some other member will check what their unit can do with the latest FW.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: insine on September 01, 2018, 08:45:49 pm
Thanks, tautech, I completely forgot about that :) 5M is already quite decent.
I've been jutst looking at the datasheet and it still mentions only 334k.

BTW, I've also asked about pulse count measurement and N-th edge trigger. Any news about that?

I like to use a pulse count when debugging MCU firmware.
I know that event count can be some substitution for pulse count, but I think it is limited only to 700 events, which is quite low when you have 14 Meg of "Curr".

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 01, 2018, 08:57:59 pm
Thanks, tautech, I completely forgot about that :) 5M is already quite decent.
I've been jutst looking at the datasheet and it still mentions only 334k.

BTW, I've also asked about pulse count measurement and N-th edge trigger. Any news about that?

I like to use a pulse count when debugging MCU firmware.
I know that event count can be some substitution for pulse count, but I think it is limited only to 700 events, which is quite low when you have 14 Meg of "Curr".
Sorry, like I said previously I don't have a unit available to check for you but should have some later this coming week. Others might like to check what the latest FW offers.

Just be sure you're looking at the most up to date datasheet; E03B
https://www.siglentamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2018/05/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E03B.pdf (https://www.siglentamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2018/05/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E03B.pdf)
UART Trigger is listed: Baud Rate (Custom) 300 bit/s ~ 5000000 bit/s
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on September 03, 2018, 10:13:13 am
Most peoples know these kind of things but still I can see frequently some peoples are confused with example trigger frequency counter (right top corner of display) and then automatic measurements displayed frequency specially when they display very different freq.

Here are images what show extremely simple case.
Many times it may be difficult to see on display without further adjustments why  trigger counter show "wrong".  It need know and understand. It count trigger treshold crossing (of course with hysteresis and direction selective)! Specially when there is non repetitive or noisy or complex signal it may display "wrong" even when it looks like signal is steady and well trig'd.

In first image there is 14.28MHz carrier AM modulated with 3.14kHz sine.
Next image 14.28MHz carrier alone (but now with DC offset just fore show RMS and Stdev measurement)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=513854;image)
14.28MHz carrier, AM modulated with 3.14kHz sine.

Note trigger level what is around half way between modulation bottom and peak. Around half of time signal is under trigger level and around other half it crosses trigger level and is counted. This is why it count in this case around half of true carrier freq. 
Of course if adjust trigger level to middle (white mark) then it counts all cycles. But then it do not trig displayed waveform to modulating frequency, then it trigs to carrier.

Here can also see alternative method to set trigger for AM modulation. Usual method is adjust suitable HoldOff time. HoldOff method often fails if modulating frequency change lot.

Some times this method I use here (just for simple example) works better with variable modualtion frequency. Just with this setting mod freq can change around between 100Hz to 12kHz with around 50% mod depth and give stable trigger. (use other interval time limit if need)

Other example in same picture is using Gated measurement. And for clarify, there is also used normal cursors for show that in Siglent normal cursors are not used for Gated measurements. Cursors just manually moved to show mod frequency.

For Gated measurements there is separate Gate cursors (A and B)
Normally also in zoomed mode automatic measurements are done from full memory (upper window) but with measurement gate user can select position and width what is used for measurements.
Here I have set  Gate for measure so narrow that it is bit less than zoomed window. (white Gate cursors can see in zoomed window. Now it measure only from this part. This is how can reject measurement area to zoomed window or part of it. And it show around right carrier frequency.
It is bit tricky to adjust Gate cursors for zoomed narrow window. Siglent need develop it bit more user friendly and so that if I change other some setting it do not reset Gate cursors positions to default.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=513860;image)
Here is same carrier alone but added some DC offset. Trigger normal and rising edge. As can see trigger freq counter count normally and freq is right. It count ok as long as every cycle rising edge cross trigger level and every falling edge goes below trigger hysteresis level what is of course under trigger level when trigger mode is rising edge. (Trigger noise reject change this hysteresis some amount)
 
In this image is also other thing. As can see carrier have DC offset. We want know RMS, but in this case we want know it as AC without its DC offset but still want see/know this offset (offset can also measure if need). Simply. Measure Stdev and there is this RMS without DC offset. It is just math and it compute it from full capture raw data. (Siglent do not decimate)
For compare, there is also RMS measurement and this is this signal RMS including its DC offset so it is its "heating power".
Of course input coupling AC removes DC offset but then it is not measurable and visible. Also AC coupling do not remove possible small internal DC offset if we work with very small signal whereby the error can be significant.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MT on September 03, 2018, 05:13:10 pm
Are there a bug list somewhere on the SDS1104X as there where for 1054z? I hope not or at least is a lot smaller! :scared:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on September 05, 2018, 04:33:59 pm
Small add. (FRom other thread. This thread is better for this because scope is SDS1000X-E 4 channel version.)


About XY mode. FW ...25R2

Here two images.
Other with AM (noise) mod and other without. Just for somehow imagine intensity grad. (not at all best example)
Also need note that live image looks bit more smooth than still image. (human eye/brain effect)

IN XY mode it can still also push these single XY´s to wfm history buffer.
It is easy to see how many there is and looking time stamps how much time it take and also there is interval.

Siglent do not directly plot XY. It capture both traces and then construct XY display from these. But after this process this product is pushed to wfm history buffer fifo.
Both traces are captured using current memory length in use and using current samplerate.
This make possible all automatic measurements. Including of course freq, rise time etc... just all.
Also Trigger functions available in XY mode.

But as all, also this have advantages and disadvantages. Method used in Siglent is not so easy to use as is direct XY draw.  With pure direct XY draw just connect signal and adjust X and Y axis  V/div. No need care memory and time scale. It works like analog scope, exept of course mostly more slow and "rough" trace.

What ever method digital scope use, if it have 8 bit ADC there is ADC itself noise and analog front end noise. X and Y vector have max 256 levels and now both have noise so every XY vector plot is not at all 1x1 pixel or 2x2 pixel on the TFT screen. It looks rough if compare old analog scope.

Siglent principle for XY is same as in Yt mode. Exept that Yt is only intermediate product. After they are ready, from these two parallel Yt captures it forms an XY image. Think sinewaves in both channels.
First both channels capture sinewave. If sinewaves have 90 degree phase shift you see circle in XY display.
And now important: If this Yt capture do not contain least one full cycle what happen. Now we can see only circle arc part. And more fun. If this Yt capture is well triggered this circle arc part position is fixed.
Now if we loose trig this circle arc part position is "random". Now we can do longer time Xt captures so that it have least one cycle and circle is full. Just rise t/div. Depending current timebase you can also control current samplerate adjusting memory data length if it is possible with current other settings.
If you are not sure how it looks in Xt display just change to YT mode and look. After some experience together with knowledge about principle you can easy control these things without swap between YT and XY mode (XY on/off) for optimum display with current signals. 
Just forget how analog scope work or digital scope with plain XY plot...  Siglent XY mode used principle need you control both channels V/div as always need with all kind of XY. But then you need also control bacround  of XY working Xt capture length using t/div. Also you adjust trigger least if need do time dependent measurements. Also in some cases it may be useful manually set memory upper limit for reduce samplerate. Specially with some low freq signals it may give more nice image reducing trace fatness (kind of noise limiter).
It may feel complex but in praactice, exercise with some examples using true signals it can fast understand basic principles of settings and after then you may get much more than with simple XY method.

Also, even with XY mode waveform history buffer is in use. You can stop and play back and look every single XY based to every single XT capture. In this case buffer include these XY frames and not these original YT captures behind these XY products.

- Trigged or untrigged XY
- Full measurements (using X and Y channels not displayed Yt acquisitions)
- intensity gradation
- History max 29140 single XY frames. (100ns/div)
- Up to >60000 wfm/s (this max measured using 1MHz CH1 and CH2, 100ns/s, trig: rising edge, no automatic measurements, acq mode: normal, fast. Cursors X-Y on. Currently in use  Yt memory length 700pts) If timebase is 100us/div and current used length 700k it can 100wfm/s and max history buffer las 38 XY's



With these settings in images it have around 8400wfm/s.
Of course this is not display refresh speed. It is roughly 25frame/s (same as in all modes)
As in normal Yt mode all captures what are made in one TFT perioare overlaid in this TFT frame and produced intensity gradation.
As in Yt mode wfm/s speed depends many settings.

Also tested using 100ns and 500MSa current memory length is 700pts and this can reach bit over 60kwfm/s speed if measurements also off. Tested using 6MHz signals. Persist and cursors do not affect.
Wit this setup max history buffer is max 29140 XY last products. Of course all these individual XY's can look separately or play in history buffer. 
No image, looks around as these others.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-xy-mode-update-rate/?action=dlattach;attach=515420;image)



(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1202x-e-xy-mode-update-rate/?action=dlattach;attach=515426;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on September 07, 2018, 01:10:08 pm
Reserved for later use.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on September 07, 2018, 01:11:47 pm
Reserved for later use with previous message. (because images limit in one msg.)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: KungFuJosh on September 08, 2018, 05:53:07 pm
Does it make sense to spend the hundred bucks and bump up to the PP215's from the PP510's?

I got 4 Pico TA131 probes for $48 total shipped (eBay / best offer). There's better deals out there if you haven't already spent the money.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: KungFuJosh on September 08, 2018, 06:48:17 pm
which is quite low when you have 14 Meg of "Curr".

Hahahahaha, I hate that stupid label! :-DD
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on September 09, 2018, 02:12:27 pm
which is quite low when you have 14 Meg of "Curr".

Hahahahaha, I hate that stupid label! :-DD

It is perhaps fun but also example Rigol use it in newest 7000 serie.
In measurements statistics there is Cur and so on... and it is not meaning electric current.
My native language is not at all english  but I have never thinked anything other when I see this Curr than it mean currently in use. Or is it better there read cur and then it is not fun if I think it is dog? for separate it from user memory setting there need read something.
There may be user selected 14M but currently it use example 700 points. How ever it is named and displayed there come least some who ask what is this meaning when there read  14 (together with some other characters before and/or after it if it is currently using 14 sample points)  and user have selected (max limit) 14M

Who get help about this?
 :-\

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: wpwrak on September 09, 2018, 09:51:57 pm
By the way, if you want meaningful timestamps on files saved to USB and you already have rooted your 1000X-E, then this may be useful:

While there is no RTC in the 1x04X-E (I don't know about the 1202X-E), the scope cannot keep the time when powered down. However, if it has Internet access, it can acquire accurate time from there, using NTP. On my 1104X-E with firmware 7.1.6.1.25 R2, this works as follows:

- connect Ethernet (all this should also work with a wireless dongle, but I don't have one so I don't know if there are any quirks when setting it up),
- in Utility > IO > IP Set configure the network such that the scope can reach the Internet (i.e., the gateway field must have the IP address of your router),
- get to the root prompt,
- run
Code: [Select]
ntpd -n -d -p 171.66.97.126
You should first get a few lines looking like this:
Code: [Select]
ntpd: sending query to 171.66.97.126
ntpd: reply from 171.66.97.126: offset:+1536499839.691361 delay:0.052936 status:0x24 strat:2 refid:0xf0f4cf82 rootdelay:0.154345 reach:0x01

This is ntpd acquiring time from the server 171.66.97.126 (one of the addresses returned for us.pool.ntp.org. They are geo-optimized, so you should find out what pool.ntp.org translates to in your area, and use that.) Once it is satisfied with the stability of the source, it sets the system time:

Code: [Select]
ntpd: setting time to 2018-09-09 13:33:03.042840 (offset +1536499839.688809s)

If you now write a screenshot or such to a USB pen drive, the file will have the correct timestamp (in UTC). Since you're setting the system time, this could also affect other things, but I don't know if there is anything where you'd notice in this particular case.

You have to enter the IP address of the time server because there is a library incompatibility breaking name resolution in this version of the firmware. Fixing this is left as an exercise to the reader (or Siglent ;-)

ntpd will now run until you shut down or reboot the scope. After the next boot, the time will start at zero (1970-01-01) again.

If you want the scope to always use NTP, you need to make it run ntpd each time it starts. The normal way to do this on Linux would be to add it to a suitable place in /etc, in this case /etc/init.d/rcS (on a regular Linux system you wouldn't touch things in /etc/init.d/ for local changes, but put them in /etc/rc.local or similar. But this system is a bit different.) Unfortunately, the root file system - which includes everything under /etc - cannot be easily changed in this case. You could with a bit of an effort, but let's keep this simple.

Towards the end of the boot process, rcS launches the application: /usr/bin/siglent/*.app. This is normally /usr/bin/siglent/sds1000b.app, but nothing stops us from putting a script there that comes in the alphabet before sds1000b.

Code: [Select]
cd /usr/bin/siglent
mount -o rw,remount .
cat >aaa.app <<END
#!/bin/sh
ntpd -p 171.66.97.126
exec "$@"
END
chmod 755 aaa.app

The steps above: go to /usr/bin/siglent, make the file system writeable, write the script (launched ntpd, then executes what followed on the command line -
in this case /usr/bin/siglent/sds1000b.app), make the script executable. Now we can reboot:

Code: [Select]
sync
reboot

After the scope has booted, run pstree. You should see ntpd. And when you check the system time with "date", it should match the current time (in UTC).

Note that ntpd constantly monitors the time and makes small adjustments when it detects drift. These adjustments mean that the speed of time is variable. Normally, this is unnoticeable, but in case you need a very constant speed of time (but still subject to any variations the oscillator in the scope may experience), you could invoke ntpd with the option -q. Run ntpd without options or arguments for the complete usage description.

If you can't or don't want to let the scope reach the global Internet but it is connected to your LAN, then you could also configure another device (Linux PC, router, etc.) as time server and let the scope obtain its time from there.

In case someone from Siglent reads this: if you're considering adding NTP support as a standard feature, please have a look at https://www.ntppool.org/en/vendors.html (https://www.ntppool.org/en/vendors.html). Since you'll be adding a great many client devices talking to the NTP servers, precautions need to be taken to make sure you don't overwhelm them. You could of course also run your own time servers.

Edit: change example time server from one at what seems to be a small company in Paraguay to one at Stanford University.
Edit 2: added #!/bin/sh. It works without it, but that's untidy.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 09, 2018, 10:45:33 pm
Very cool. 
Thanks very much for sharing this and writing it up. :clap:
Forwarded to Siglent for them to hopefully implement ASAP.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on September 10, 2018, 01:33:42 pm
While there is no RTC in the 1x04X-E (I don't know about the 1202X-E), the scope cannot keep the time when powered down. However, if it has Internet access, it can acquire accurate time from there, using NTP.

Cool!

I had been thinking on proposing this idea but I had no way of testing it.

If you opt for a permanent change to the FS maybe I can help (if Siglent doesn't).

BEWARE: On the safe side, you should return the /usr/bin/siglent mount to RO. Leaving it at RW could bring undesirable results!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on September 10, 2018, 10:32:32 pm
Very cool. 
Thanks very much for sharing this and writing it up. :clap:
Forwarded to Siglent for them to hopefully implement ASAP.

This is what I already suggested here:

Quote
Add Time and Date support:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1756706/#msg1756706 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1756706/#msg1756706)

Please see all four time and date related suggestions (bullets). I would appreciate if you can forward all four to Siglent
My suggestions are functional descriptions. Siglent will know best how to implement them.


@wpwrak has suggested an implementation for my first two bullets, for which thanks. That solution however requires hacking the scope and is not integrated into the UI. It also does not implement the features from my last two bullets.

I.m.o. getting time from NTP server should not be done too frequent to minimize (inter)network traffic (unless the scope firmware is unable to maintain time accurately, which I doubt because operating the scope already requires precision timing but Siglent will know this best).


I would appreciate if you also can forward the following suggestions to Siglent (can significantly improve the readability/visibility of overlay text like 'All measure on'):
Quote
Improve the readability of overlays
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1713224/#msg1713224 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1713224/#msg1713224)

Thanks

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on September 11, 2018, 07:51:10 am
@wpwrak has suggested an implementation for my first two bullets, for which thanks. That solution however requires hacking the scope and is not integrated into the UI. It also does not implement the features from my last two bullets.

I.m.o. getting time from NTP server should not be done too frequent to minimize (inter)network traffic (unless the scope firmware is unable to maintain time accurately, which I doubt because operating the scope already requires precision timing but Siglent will know this best).

1. You can, ATM, use the SCPI SHELLCMD command and as a parameter pass your NTP string command. This doesnt require any "hacking".

2. After sync the clock, you can kill the NTP daemon.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: borjam on September 11, 2018, 08:13:34 am
I.m.o. getting time from NTP server should not be done too frequent to minimize (inter)network traffic (unless the scope firmware is unable to maintain time accurately, which I doubt because operating the scope already requires precision timing but Siglent will know this best).
Keeping proper ntp synchronization, although simple (the support is there, in the Linux system they use) is maybe overkill.

But just a ntpdate to set the proper date and time at boot time would be really useful. It would mean the files would be timestamped with a usable date and time, just like it had a RTC.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on September 11, 2018, 09:33:14 am
Although it gives a little more work everytime you want to save files, another option is:

Since to save the files you need to have the USB drive inserted, one can run a script (residing in the USB) only when you want to do a "save files" session.

For that, you only have to create a proper script that activates the ntpd and I can make an .ADS from it.

How to: With that, you can run an "Update" with that .ADS just before doing the "save files" session. It takes 1 or 2 seconds and you're ready to save files with the proper datetime.

Benefit: This method, like the SHELLCMD, doesnt imply any changes to the scope's settings and is more complete than the SHELLCMD because you can execute a more complex script (launch NTPD, kill it, etc..).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: wpwrak on September 12, 2018, 02:20:53 am
1. You can, ATM, use the SCPI SHELLCMD command and as a parameter pass your NTP string command. This doesnt require any "hacking".

Nice !

Quote
2. After sync the clock, you can kill the NTP daemon.

You can just tell ntpd to exit once it has set the time (or tried but failed):

Code: [Select]
SHELLCMD ntpd -q -p 171.66.97.126
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on September 12, 2018, 09:37:45 am
Code: [Select]
SHELLCMD ntpd -q -p 171.66.97.126

Then, I think you should do it like this:

Code: [Select]
SHELLCMD $(ntpd -q -p 171.66.97.126)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on September 12, 2018, 11:29:48 am
@wpwrak has suggested an implementation for my first two bullets, for which thanks. That solution however requires hacking the scope and is not integrated into the UI. It also does not implement the features from my last two bullets.

I.m.o. getting time from NTP server should not be done too frequent to minimize (inter)network traffic (unless the scope firmware is unable to maintain time accurately, which I doubt because operating the scope already requires precision timing but Siglent will know this best).

1. You can, ATM, use the SCPI SHELLCMD command and as a parameter pass your NTP string command. This doesnt require any "hacking".

2. After sync the clock, you can kill the NTP daemon.

Nice but I just want to press the 'On' button and then things should work without having to do any fancy stuff / perform manual actions etc. and without having to perform any actions on some PC.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on September 12, 2018, 11:49:05 am
Although it gives a little more work everytime you want to save files, another option is:

Since to save the files you need to have the USB drive inserted, one can run a script (residing in the USB) only when you want to do a "save files" session.

For that, you only have to create a proper script that activates the ntpd and I can make an .ADS from it.

How to: With that, you can run an "Update" with that .ADS just before doing the "save files" session. It takes 1 or 2 seconds and you're ready to save files with the proper datetime.

Benefit: This method, like the SHELLCMD, doesnt imply any changes to the scope's settings and is more complete than the SHELLCMD because you can execute a more complex script (launch NTPD, kill it, etc..).

That executes with root privilege?
If so then this appears to be a serious security issue.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on September 12, 2018, 01:18:24 pm
Nice but I just want to press the 'On' button and then things should work without having to do any fancy stuff / perform manual actions etc. and without having to perform any actions on some PC.

If that's the case then do what wpwrak described in #969. No Siglent intervention needed.

That executes with root privilege?

Take a guess.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bugi on September 12, 2018, 01:39:42 pm
I.m.o. getting time from NTP server should not be done too frequent to minimize (inter)network traffic (unless the scope firmware is unable to maintain time accurately, which I doubt because operating the scope already requires precision timing but Siglent will know this best).
Keeping proper ntp synchronization, although simple (the support is there, in the Linux system they use) is maybe overkill.

But just a ntpdate to set the proper date and time at boot time would be really useful. It would mean the files would be timestamped with a usable date and time, just like it had a RTC.
Not just at boot time, but also whenever there has been no time synchronization after boot and a network cable is connected (if the device can detect such at runtime), or when it has been long enough since last sync (preferably adjustable period). The last case would handle (rare?) situations where the scope is being used 24/7 and never turned off or disconnected/reconnected to network, so the periodic resync prevents eventual drifting to get out of hand (assuming exact time is important).
Also, would be nice if the user has an option to configure the time server to be used. E.g. in some cases the LAN might not be connected to internet at all, and a local network time server would be used instead. Or, as I have noticed (only) couple times, the preconfigured time server has since vanished, or service has changed to only provide time for better tier clients (i.e. other time servers), not for ordinary end users.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on September 12, 2018, 02:13:29 pm
@wpwrak has suggested an implementation for my first two bullets, for which thanks. That solution however requires hacking the scope and is not integrated into the UI. It also does not implement the features from my last two bullets.

I.m.o. getting time from NTP server should not be done too frequent to minimize (inter)network traffic (unless the scope firmware is unable to maintain time accurately, which I doubt because operating the scope already requires precision timing but Siglent will know this best).

1. You can, ATM, use the SCPI SHELLCMD command and as a parameter pass your NTP string command. This doesnt require any "hacking".

2. After sync the clock, you can kill the NTP daemon.

Nice but I just want to press the 'On' button and then things should work without having to do any fancy stuff / perform manual actions etc. and without having to perform any actions on some PC.

I'm confused, you want a cheap and capable oscilloscope with all of the bells and whistles so you can fix and/or work on electronics, and yet you don't want to do anything to make your chosen device capable of the things you want it to do?  That seems like a tall order.

What you have is a great device with lots of features that is still under development, and you have a dogged group of engineers and scientists (the people in this thread) who are dedicated to finding ways to make this device better at no additional cost to you.  You have the solution to your problem in your hand, use it instead of complaining about how a device under development doesn't come with everything you want out of the box.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on September 12, 2018, 02:18:14 pm
Not just at boot time, but also whenever there has been no time synchronization after boot and a network cable is connected (if the device can detect such at runtime), or when it has been long enough since last sync (preferably adjustable period). The last case would handle (rare?) situations where the scope is being used 24/7 and never turned off or disconnected/reconnected to network, so the periodic resync prevents eventual drifting to get out of hand (assuming exact time is important).
Also, would be nice if the user has an option to configure the time server to be used. E.g. in some cases the LAN might not be connected to internet at all, and a local network time server would be used instead. Or, as I have noticed (only) couple times, the preconfigured time server has since vanished, or service has changed to only provide time for better tier clients (i.e. other time servers), not for ordinary end users.

This is why is not easy to support all families. I don't see Siglent doing a "huge" development just for those people that are willing to connect their scopes to the net...

I agree with the arguments but think that the SCPI command might be the easiest way in the near future, specially because of the intricacies of each user setup.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on September 12, 2018, 06:56:00 pm
I'm confused, you want a cheap and capable oscilloscope with all of the bells and whistles so you can fix and/or work on electronics, and yet you don't want to do anything to make your chosen device capable of the things you want it to do?  That seems like a tall order.

What you have is a great device with lots of features that is still under development, and you have a dogged group of engineers and scientists (the people in this thread) who are dedicated to finding ways to make this device better at no additional cost to you.  You have the solution to your problem in your hand, use it instead of complaining about how a device under development doesn't come with everything you want out of the box.

"instead of complaining about how a device under development doesn't come with everything you want out of the box."
Eh.. don't start making things up..

Unfortunately I see only very limited constructive suggestions for Siglent (like the one linked below) in this thread. Even while clearly marked as 'Suggestion for new features', several people appear to have difficulty reading them and react only to the latest posts in this thread instead.

Quote
Add Time and Date support:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1756706/#msg1756706 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1756706/#msg1756706)

"device under development"
The device has been released somewhere end of last year. Any bugs should be fixed and new features may be added but if and which will be decided by Siglent. The users here can come up with new suggestions and possibly motivate Siglent to actually implement them (and @tautech can forward them).

I have many devices that require tweaks but I dislike managing them all manually and having to fix things again after the next software/firmware update. So I preferably want certain features to be supported by the manufacturer and supported in the UI, which is why I have taken the efforts of contributing several posts with suggestions for new features (with clear description) and reported a security bug in this thread.
So who is complaining here?

FYI: my SDS1104X-E is @SDS1204X-E.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on September 12, 2018, 07:14:00 pm

"... just for those people that are willing to connect their scopes to the net ..."

Well, statements like that are surely not going to motivate Siglent..
Luckily they have already taken the efforts to ad networking support (hardware and software) to the device.  ;)

I'm not sure if with "connect their scopes to the net" you are referring to the internet, but querying a NTP server to get date/time will not expose the scope to the internet.

See my post with suggestions for adding Time and Date support. User configurable NTP server URL and update frequency are already included there.
Let's hope Siglent is willing to add support for it. It does not require "huge development". The development efforts for adding time and date support will probably be relatively small.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on September 12, 2018, 07:35:13 pm
Unfortunately I see only very limited constructive suggestions for Siglent like the one below in this thread. Even while clearly marked as 'suggestions for new features', several people appear to have difficulty reading them and react to the latest posts in this thread instead.
...
I have many devices that require tweaks but I dislike managing them all manually and having to fix things again after the next software/firmware update. So I preferably want certain features to be supported by the manufacturer and supported in the UI, which is why I have made the efforts to add several suggestions for new features and reported a security bug in this thread.
So who is complaining here?

FYI my SDS1104X-E is @SDS1204X-E.

We all understand that you made improvement suggestions and that's fine. What wpwrak wrote is a "how to" achieve some of the goals that you want implemented with what we have available. (I think he didn't want to take you from the podium.)

There's is no problem with that also and, while there is no official implementation, it's the best way to solve the datetime problem.

Regarding all the tweaks that everybody does, it seems you like many others, after all, do the tweaks because you decide you need them. But then you must understand that if you think/wish an equipment of this kind of price should come equipped with all the imaginable features (without requiring any additional tweaks) then you should do the extreme tweak right from the beginning: buy a better equipment that guarantees those features.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 12, 2018, 07:58:07 pm
@bluejedi
When you first made the time and date suggestion I did not think or know how how it could be accomplished.
Now I now more and see it can, and not too hard for the engineers to do.
It is true if timestamps are important to the user then another instrument would have been a better choice.

I do know the NTP server idea is being investigated but at this time that is all I know and like many here I hope it will be adopted as a solution for timestamps.
With the WiFi this will be a good solution.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on September 12, 2018, 08:03:29 pm
@tv84
Yes sure, all practical suggestions, implementations, hacks, scripts (whatever) are welcome and appreciated.
('Podiums' play not an issue here, but fragmented information, scattered partial repetitions and unnecessary related discussions are not going to contribute to constructive suggestions to Siglent.)

Demand from their community is what can motivate Siglent to add additional features. Providing good software/firmware support benefits both current and potential users but also benefits Siglent (assuming the models are not end-of-life).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on September 12, 2018, 08:21:29 pm
@tautech
"When you first made the time and date suggestion I did not think or know how how it could be accomplished.
Now I now more and see it can, and not too hard for the engineers to do.
It is true if timestamps are important to the user then another instrument would have been a better choice."


I can understand that you do not understand the specifics, requirements and implementation details for every new feature suggestion in this thread but Siglent hopefully will.
It is not doable (or always possible) to explain every suggestion in detail with technical/implementation details here (and Siglent will probably know best how to implement a new feature because they built the device).
I therefore try to describe my suggestions on a functional level (with some technical/implementation hints).
My suggestions are not 'unfunded nice to haves' but are based on what I think will be a substantial (usability) improvement that is technically feasible without requiring huge efforts.

"With the WiFi this will be a good solution"
Requesting time and date from an NTP server via the network works for both wireless and wired network connections (my scope is connected wired to the network).

Sure, SDS1000X-E is not Siglent's top of the range, but price/functionality wise it is probably a popular series. Not using actual date/time stamps on files is quite uncommon and I find it surprising that this (and a RTC) is lacking.
I am not an Electronics Engineer by profession so SDS1104X-E for me is already top of the range.  ;D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 13, 2018, 12:06:56 am

"With the WiFi this will be a good solution"
Requesting time and date from an NTP server via the network works for both wireless and wired network connections (my scope is connected wired to the network).
Sure but not everyone's is.
I prefer the WiFi connection option as you can use it anywhere.
FYI, I have used a LAN connection many times but it restricts portability.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on September 13, 2018, 12:23:33 pm
@tautech
I meant that it works for both situations, that it is a good solution not only for WiFi.
(English is not my native language so I may have interpreted your message different from how it was meant.)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Sparrow on September 24, 2018, 12:02:21 am
anyone have problems with long PSK's on wifi?
I am using a long PSK ~25 characters long with spaces in it, and it doesn't seem to be working.
There is a bug with network SSIDs which contain spaces. The scope will see this network but won't be able to connect to it.

Siglent confirmed this bug but I don't know when it will be fixed.

My WiFi dongle was not supplied by Siglent and works fine with networks without spaces in SSIDs.
Is it the Siglent or the TP-Link TL-WN725N that gives the problem with spaces in the SSID?
I once bought a TP-Link wireless router that didn't allow spaces in the SSID, when all my other devices did. Replaced it with a Netgear and all was well again.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on September 24, 2018, 04:58:28 pm
anyone have problems with long PSK's on wifi?
I am using a long PSK ~25 characters long with spaces in it, and it doesn't seem to be working.
There is a bug with network SSIDs which contain spaces. The scope will see this network but won't be able to connect to it.

Siglent confirmed this bug but I don't know when it will be fixed.

My WiFi dongle was not supplied by Siglent and works fine with networks without spaces in SSIDs.
Is it the Siglent or the TP-Link TL-WN725N that gives the problem with spaces in the SSID?
I once bought a TP-Link wireless router that didn't allow spaces in the SSID, when all my other devices did. Replaced it with a Netgear and all was well again.

I couldn't test it with other modules because the oscilloscope does not support them. If I have free time, I'll try to test the Wi-Fi dongle with a computer to see if it works.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 26, 2018, 10:43:05 pm
New firmware for SDS1*04X-E models.
At this time only the Hamburg links seems to work.  :-//

Version 6.1.26
7.5 MB

https://www.siglenteu.com/download/6586/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/download/6586/)

Changelog
1. Added SCPI command to set up gated measurements and return the data.
2. Customers can save the result of decode list table to a CSV file.
3. Modified the color of FFT to match the trace selected.
4. There are some times of quick calibration during warming up the SDS XE. Added a menu below Utility to disable the quick calibration so that the sampling isn’t interrupted.
5. Created software that converts binary waveform data to CSV. It can be downloaded from the embedded web server on the scope.
6. Fixed the bug: “Screen Save” button on web page does not work with some browsers.
7. Fixed the bug: The setting of Educational mode can’t be saved after power off.
8. Fixed a bug with MSO decoding. and the SLA1016 firmware also needs to be updated to 8.1.11.
9. Fixed the bug: The binary block returned by the WAVEFORM command contains the length of the block in the “#9” header. This length is incorrect when the NP option of the WFSU command is used; the header then gives the memory depth instead of the actual size of the block.
10. Fixed the bug of the scope response from the WAVEFORM command prefixes the binary block with the string "ALL," even when "CHDR OFF" is used.
11. Added exiting the on-screen keyboard by OK button.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: benii on October 07, 2018, 11:42:28 am
Looking to get this scope and use that bode plotting feature but a bit confused on what configuration to get. You can get that SAG1021 AWG that plugs with usb and I suppose you need to buy a separate AWG licence also to use that dongle... But apparently you could get a siglent brand SDG (1032X?) external AWG that can also plug in with usb(?) and use the automated plotting feature without a licence? Some page stated that external AWG doesnt require a licence for some reason.

e. ok found some old comments, 1104X-E + SDG1032X should work together out of the box, nice.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on October 07, 2018, 01:38:19 pm
Looking to get this scope and use that bode plotting feature but a bit confused on what configuration to get. You can get that SAG1021 AWG that plugs with usb and I suppose you need to buy a separate AWG licence also to use that dongle... But apparently you could get a siglent brand SDG (1032X?) external AWG that can also plug in with usb(?) and use the automated plotting feature without a licence? Some page stated that external AWG doesnt require a licence for some reason.

e. ok found some old comments, 1104X-E + SDG1032X should work together out of the box, nice.

Bode plot do not need AWG licence. SDS1104X-E BodePlot function directly controls SDG via USB.
AWG licence is needed if you buy SAG1021 AWG and you want use it also other things than just BodePlot. But without licence you can not control SAG1021 for any other purpose.  If you want use it at signal generator for other purpose than just BodePlot then you need this licence and then using oscilloscope controls/menu you can adjust this SAG1021 settings.

Example with SDG1032X and SDS1104X-E (https://siglent.fi/) you do not need this AWG licence at all. (and you have lot of better generator)



Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Chuki on October 09, 2018, 11:14:56 pm
New to scopes. Testing my new 1204x-e. What really makes think bad is the fact that just sitting scope on the bench is showing 20-30 mV on its outputs without probes connected.
Is it for sure problem with mine example or might it be a problem with bad 220v line/ground?

Attch. 59-63 what I see on display of 1204 without probes or cables in it.
39-40 - what is seen in the "220v/50" line of my socket.

Please advice should I go back asap to the dealer and change this one example.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on October 09, 2018, 11:35:54 pm
New to scopes. Testing my new 1204x-e. What really makes think bad is the fact that just sitting scope on the bench is showing 20-30 mV on its outputs without probes connected.
Is it for sure problem with mine example or might it be a problem with bad 220v line/ground?

Attch. 59-63 what I see on display of 1204 without probes or cables in it.
39-40 - what is seen in the "220v/50" line of my socket.

Please advice should I go back asap to the dealer and change this one example.
Welcome to the forum.

First, please check the firmware version and if it's not version 26 update it from here:
https://www.siglenteu.com/download/6586/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/download/6586/)

Then after the DSO has been running ~30 mins do the Self Cal available in the Utilities menu.

Quote
39-40 - what is seen in the "220v/50" line of my socket.
Normal, the mains sine wave has been affected by other SMPS corrupting the waveform.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Chuki on October 09, 2018, 11:56:58 pm
My machine showed 7.6.1.20.r3 on the screen.
so I am little bit confused is that lower or higher than 6.1.26 :) Depending on the logic of what way to read might be both.

Started mache to run for 30 min to make calibration. Actually, I have made it once after for sure few hours of runtime.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: eff on October 10, 2018, 12:08:06 am
My machine showed 7.6.1.20.r3 on the screen.
so I am little bit confused is that lower or higher than 6.1.26 :) Depending on the logic of what way to read might be both.

Started mache to run for 30 min to make calibration. Actually, I have made it once after for sure few hours of runtime.

Your unit has an old firmware revision. The relevant part of your "7.6.1.20.r3" would be the 6.1.20.r3, thus your firmware is a little old.
An up-to-date oscilloscope would display 7.6.1.26

~Edited for spelling/grammar.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on October 10, 2018, 08:00:03 am
New to scopes. Testing my new 1204x-e. What really makes think bad is the fact that just sitting scope on the bench is showing 20-30 mV on its outputs without probes connected.
Is it for sure problem with mine example or might it be a problem with bad 220v line/ground?

Attch. 59-63 what I see on display of 1204 without probes or cables in it.
39-40 - what is seen in the "220v/50" line of my socket.

Please advice should I go back asap to the dealer and change this one example.

There is nothing wrong with your SDS1204X-E (Regardless what firmware version you’re running).

It is an 8-bit DSO and one vertical division on the screen equals 25 LSB of the ADC. Now do the math…

At 1V/div, 1 LSB of the ADC equals 1/25V = 40mV.

It comes as no surprise that automatic measurements will always pick up at least 1LSB (peak to peak) since this is about the minimum noise generated by the ADC itself.

Change the vertical gain to 100mV/div and you’ll most likely get 4mV.

Try 1mv/div and you will get 40µV ADC noise, but actual reading will be more because at high sensitivities like this, noise from the frontend will contribute to the result.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on October 11, 2018, 11:28:33 am
An up-to-date oscilloscope would display 7.6.1.26

Btw, the correct version string for a fully up-to-date SDS1004X-e would be 7.1.6.1.26
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on October 15, 2018, 09:21:55 pm
I installed the new firmware. The cursors label is still hard to read. Its transparency can be adjusted but it can't be set to 0% and the background color is too bright. It should be darker. I would also move it to a corner instead of the right middle point.

7. Fixed the bug: The setting of Educational mode can’t be saved after power off.
What is Educational mode? Where can I find it?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on October 15, 2018, 10:54:21 pm
7. Fixed the bug: The setting of Educational mode can’t be saved after power off.
What is Educational mode? Where can I find it?
Don't know....I'll ask.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on October 16, 2018, 03:11:08 am
I installed the new firmware. The cursors label is still hard to read. Its transparency can be adjusted but it can't be set to 0% and the background color is too bright. It should be darker. I would also move it to a corner instead of the right middle point.

The problem isn't the transparency.  Even if it were possible to make it completely transparent, some of the text would be unreadable in your example because it's the same color as the trace that's underneath.

I think the best answer here is probably for the transparency to remain present (though I wouldn't object to making it possible to make it completely transparent), and for the text to have an offset black shadow, so that the text is readable no matter the background (the main text color takes makes the lettering readable on dark backgrounds, and the black shadow would make the lettering readable on a light background).

Here's what your high-transparency example would look like with the effect I propose (diagonal shadow):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=548741;image)

And here's an alternate version of that, with the shadow going straight to the left:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=548747;image)

Now, the above isn't ideal, since "noise" with the right characteristics will make the text difficult to read even with the shadowing effect, but it's still an improvement over the original.  But look at the improvement you get with a more opaque background (here I'm using the diagonal shadow, since I think it's more effective overall):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=548753;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bugi on October 16, 2018, 07:23:21 am
What would it look like with full 1 pixel halo/outline?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on October 16, 2018, 03:53:19 pm

The problem isn't the transparency.  Even if it were possible to make it completely transparent, some of the text would be unreadable in your example because it's the same color as the trace that's underneath.


Reduced transparency with a dark background can solve this issue.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on October 16, 2018, 03:58:53 pm
[Suggestion]

And moving the cursors label to a corner will improve the usability much more.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on October 16, 2018, 06:17:22 pm
What would it look like with full 1 pixel halo/outline?

On the transparent background, this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=549356;image)

I'm outlining by hand.  I could do the same for the relatively opaque background, but I think it's clear that the better solution for a relatively opaque background is for the background color for the cursor data to be substantially darker.  That won't work well for dark-colored text, but I don't know if there's any such text that the scope uses in conjunction with a transparent background in the first place.  A darker background would work well even if there were some transparency of it.

So it may be that the best solution here (certainly the simplest) is to move the cursor data area to the corner and to change the background for it (and, I think, for most other things for which the transparent background is used) to a dark gray:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=549389;image)

Or a very dark gray (12.5%):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=549434;image)

That said, I think it's valuable to have a black outline around the text for those users who prefer a more transparent background.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on October 16, 2018, 11:09:05 pm

The problem isn't the transparency.  Even if it were possible to make it completely transparent, some of the text would be unreadable in your example because it's the same color as the trace that's underneath.


Reduced transparency with a dark background can solve this issue.

I have already made several [Suggestion]'s for improving overlays (including adding black transparent background) in my post "Improve the readability of overlays" from July 31, 2018.

Please check this post: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1713224/#msg1713224 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1713224/#msg1713224)

If now Siglent would only implement them..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on October 16, 2018, 11:27:07 pm
@tautech
It would be useful if we could actually get some feedback from Siglent regarding our suggestions.
Whether Siglent has any plans to implement them and which (not).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on October 16, 2018, 11:59:41 pm
[suggestion] for the layout of suggestions on the forum (this thread at least):

Suggestions for the layout of suggestion posts to make suggestions easier to find and recognize

Easier to find and recognize while manually scrolling through the posts and also when using the search option.
After the list with suggestions additional information can be given (e.g. more details, background information, references etc.), just like this.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on October 17, 2018, 12:11:49 am
@tautech
It would be useful if we could actually get some feedback from Siglent for our suggestions.
Whether Siglent has any plans to implement them and which (not).
In any detail, that's not available to me but as most are aware Siglent get numerous pointers to ideas/bugs and improvements suggested in this and their Siglent Support thread.
I will thank all contributions thus far and as you might see member Siglent does spend some time on this forum following reports and suggestions you have all offered, please keep it up !  :clap:

As you might understand their primary focus is correcting any bugs reported then adding enhancements/improvements suggested from the database they keep on each product. If we like to look back through this thread for suggestions and correlate them to subsequent firmware changelogs you'll see a good few have been implemented already but of course they are just those that have risen to 'important' status.
Each bug/suggestion is assessed and graded before adding to the database then depending on the resources allocated addressed when a FW revision is due/needed. Yes, this takes time to fully asses each issue/suggestion and find a solution that they are happy with. Sometimes beta firmware is offered to beta testers before public release.....more time ! Other times new firmware is just added into production and is available in new units before we have a public firmware release.

It would seem to me that most very important issues have now been addressed and those we can 'work around' have a lower priority will be looked at in forthcoming FW.

It's not like the SDS1*04X-E's are their only new product so resources need be allocated to areas of priority ........SDS5kX, SVA1015X, SSG3kX plus addressing the existing product ranges.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on October 17, 2018, 08:12:08 am
Somewhere time ago someone talk about need of shut off input channels trace display when using example math functions or if user want use one channel as Ext trig input. In these cases sometimes it is nice if trace display can turn off.

If someone have not noted this change in last FW versions...

If you use example math and you want only see math result you can turn channel(s) trace(s) display off. Also if you use one input for external trig. You can turn this trace off if you do not want see it.
Every channel trace display can turn off and it do not affect functions. Selection is in channel setup menu.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Chuki on October 27, 2018, 12:08:08 pm
Thank you for helping. Sorry for the long response - as I had Imaginary 3 (of 5) in university for electrotechnical I had to read a lot even to understand what you explained :)

As for 8bit and 25LSB - looks like that is right for 10 div systems. Our 1204 is 8 div. So 32 LSB per DIV is in our case?

So I do the math. At 500mkV/div my systems LSB should be 4mV / 256 = 0.016 mV = 15 mkV
At 1V per div - LSB should be 8 / 256 = 31 mV

At 500uV / DIV I have mean pk-to-pk 530uV on all 4 channels. Looks close to promised 0.5 div Std-dev.

Thank you. Looks like my "problem" and your explanation helped me to understand things I couldn't in Univ.

Like in old anecdote - if the problem could be solved with money that is not a problem this is an additional charge. :)


To be true. Before reading f.manuals I tried as always to kick the wheel - I made self-cal few times. No help with random results.
Then I upgraded to new software + cal. I got better results with 2 channels (1+2).


Also, could I make an assumption from my first screens that second part of my system (Ch3+Ch4) are less noise of better calibrated than the first one?
As these 2 channels always are close to 0 instead of Ch1+Ch2.

Also for me is not understandable why in GND coupling mode any voltage at all appears on CH3. I thought that It shouldn't be there theoretically.

Could you please also help what "Quck Cal. ON" function is. Tried to check with user manual - couldn't find.




There is nothing wrong with your SDS1204X-E (Regardless what firmware version you’re running).

It is an 8-bit DSO and one vertical division on the screen equals 25 LSB of the ADC. Now do the math…

At 1V/div, 1 LSB of the ADC equals 1/25V = 40mV.

It comes as no surprise that automatic measurements will always pick up at least 1LSB (peak to peak) since this is about the minimum noise generated by the ADC itself.

Change the vertical gain to 100mV/div and you’ll most likely get 4mV.

Try 1mv/div and you will get 40µV ADC noise, but actual reading will be more because at high sensitivities like this, noise from the frontend will contribute to the result.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on October 27, 2018, 01:22:15 pm
Chuki, you're opening a can of worms with all your questions :)

To explain it all thoroughly, it would certainly take much more than just a short posting.

First, trust me that one division on your scope is equivalent to 25LSB. The total screen height is 200LSB and there are 27LSB headroom above and below.

There is no significant difference between channels regarding noise, but the calibration has only finite resolution and cannot cancel out very small offset errors. This is why offset calibration can never be perfect for the very high sensitivities like 500µV/div and this is also why there will always be a slight offset difference between channels.
Yes even the noise can appear different with certain channel gains, just because it depends on the precise vertical position (= internal offset) setting how often the LSB of the ADC (analog to digital converter) is toggled. As I said before, one LSB of noise is always to be expected, and if it's less than that, it's just a special situation that can easily change anytime or needs not be the same on some other channel.

GND coupling is a very special case and it does not really shorten the scope input like it did on old analog scopes. It just shuts off the output of the VGA (variable gain amplifier) of that channel, so some tiny offset error of the ADC as well as some numerical offset manipulation in the signal processing path might still cause a small visible offset.

If you are really interested in a more thorough explanation how these things work, feel free to read my posts in this discussion (starting at reply #129):

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent_s-new-product-sds2000x-series/msg1889885/#msg1889885 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent_s-new-product-sds2000x-series/msg1889885/#msg1889885)

Yes, it is a different DSO (SDS2000X), but the principles are exactly the same.

As to Quick Cal, this is just fast calibration "on the fly" whenever the DSO detects a major temperature difference and/or a change in the channel gain setting. It will cause a a short "hickup" of your measurement and then results are more accurate again. This should not happen anymore once the scope is properly warmed up and ambient temperature remains fairly constant.

Some people don't like this feature, so it can be turned off or on, just as desired.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Coldblackice on November 11, 2018, 09:40:10 pm
Considering buying this scope, but wondering: is there any reason to hold off or wait on buying this scope? I.e., are there any hardware revisions that should be waited on, any downsides to current inventory, will the next hardware revision have some sort of improvement/benefit?

I don't usually jump on to new tech, instead waiting for a couple revisions to iron out any kings or bugs.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 11, 2018, 10:15:54 pm
Considering buying this scope, but wondering: is there any reason to hold off or wait on buying this scope? I.e., are there any hardware revisions that should be waited on, any downsides to current inventory, will the next hardware revision have some sort of improvement/benefit?
We can already see revisions with different codes in the SN# compared to first units.
I think maybe a little quieter fan than in early units.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bakerboy on November 13, 2018, 10:19:53 am
Has anyone managed to get WIFI working on this scope with a  third party wifi adapter?
 ive got a TP link TL-WN725N wifi adapter if i put it in the scope it detects it and i can scan for and detect available networks, but when i try to connect it fails after a few seconds.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on November 13, 2018, 10:22:31 am
Has anyone managed to get WIFI working on this scope with a  third party wifi adapter?
 ive got a TP link TL-WN725N wifi adapter if i put it in the scope it detects it and i can scan for and detect available networks, but when i try to connect it fails after a few seconds.

Yes it works, but beware if you have special characters in your password, it is very choosy about what it likes and doesn't like.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bakerboy on November 13, 2018, 12:03:49 pm
This happens to me every time, ive even tried hot spotting my phone :(
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 13, 2018, 01:13:50 pm
Has anyone managed to get WIFI working on this scope with a  third party wifi adapter?
I've got a TP link TL-WN725N wifi adapter if i put it in the scope it detects it and i can scan for and detect available networks, but when i try to connect it fails after a few seconds.
Confusingly I've had similar problems of late when previously none.
I've got a very early 1104X-E SN#0012 and TP Link adapter and previously it worked at good range but not so much now. I bought 2 units TP Link WiFi adapters and lately they both exhibit reduced range compared to previous performance........  :-//

Optimizing your WiFi antenna orientation can help just as moving closer.
I'll revisit this issue in attempting to find the root cause over the next few days.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on November 14, 2018, 08:28:14 pm
Has anyone managed to get WIFI working on this scope with a  third party wifi adapter?
 ive got a TP link TL-WN725N wifi adapter if i put it in the scope it detects it and i can scan for and detect available networks, but when i try to connect it fails after a few seconds.
Does the SSID of your network have spaces? If yes, they are the problem.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 15, 2018, 06:32:26 am
A hands up please of those using the Siglent WiFi adapter TL‐WN725N.
Some reports on your experiences and range with this USB adapter please.

Also please, reports from those using the genuine TP Link TL-WN725N dongle.


This is what I have and experience infrequent drop outs of connection to our WLAN.
I've even tried another TP Link TL-WN725N I have in stock.
Range is not good for reliable connections, maybe 10 M throughout a wooden dwelling while all our other WiFi devices work at much further distances.....phones, tablets etc.

In some attempt to find if there has been firmware changes that could impact on WiFi performance I've rolled the versions back one by one from V6.1.26 back to V6.1.20R1 with no noticeable changes to WiFi connectivity stability.

I seem to remember better WiFi performance but in the intervening time since receiving my beta unit we've changed WiFi hardware.............but all our other devices still work OK.  :-//

Are these TP Link based dongles under-powered rubbish ?

Edit
While researching I found this:
On the WIFI front - I found I needed to turn DHCP on to grab an IP (which I then set in my router) and then turn it off to keep those settings - otherwise the 1104XE was constantly disconnecting and reconnecting for some reason. Rock solid once DHCP turned off and the IP saved.

More checks being undertaken.......
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on November 15, 2018, 07:41:03 am
And why DHCP need be on in Oscilloscope? For what?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on November 15, 2018, 07:44:48 am
And why DHCP need be on in Oscilloscope? For what?
DHCP client for obtaining an IP automatically.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bugi on November 15, 2018, 08:48:20 am
I seem to remember better WiFi performance but in the intervening time since receiving my beta unit we've changed WiFi hardware.............but all our other devices still work OK.  :-//
While not a full match to symptoms (other devices would need to show some issues, too), and quite unlikely reason, there are some reports of certain new mobile phones causing problems with some wifi-routers, especially causing frequent disconnects with quick reconnects, even to other devices connected with that same router. Not going to go into details about that. But it gives an idea that as a means to remove some variables from the testing, perhaps temporarily relocate/turn off all other wifi devices.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 15, 2018, 09:11:49 am
I seem to remember better WiFi performance but in the intervening time since receiving my beta unit we've changed WiFi hardware.............but all our other devices still work OK.  :-//
While not a full match to symptoms (other devices would need to show some issues, too), and quite unlikely reason, there are some reports of certain new mobile phones causing problems with some wifi-routers, especially causing frequent disconnects with quick reconnects, even to other devices connected with that same router. Not going to go into details about that. But it gives an idea that as a means to remove some variables from the testing, perhaps temporarily relocate/turn off all other wifi devices.
Yes thanks, that path is certainly worth pursuing.
Right now I've got a rock solid stable WiFi connection with zero drop outs mostly due to assigning a correct subnet, gateway and full Save. DHCP OFF.

But still something's not right .............maybe an IP clash.  :-//
I'll crack it sooner or later ! Grrrr
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on November 15, 2018, 09:23:21 am
And why DHCP need be on in Oscilloscope? For what?
DHCP client for obtaining an IP automatically.

I know my scope IP exactly. When I set scope IP I know it and it do not change until I change it and changing it need really heavy reason nost just because some automatic is "fun".
Routers are other things...  this is single oscilloscope standing alone and it have IP, known IP. Period. (in my case. ;) )
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: timgiles on November 15, 2018, 10:52:18 am
I needed to set my IP address rather than use DHCP (client). I did not understand from your posts if you were using DHCP or not in the settings.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gandalf_Sr on November 15, 2018, 11:20:25 am
If you specify an IP address that's in the range of the ones that the DHCP server issues, isn't that a source of problems?  What's the recommended best practice?

I have the ability in my (Comcast-provided) router to reserve IP addresses for specific MAC addresses so that they always get given the same IP address.  When a scope that has DHCP set as default is given an IP address, I just log on to my router and tell it to reserve the IP address that it gave to my scope.

DHCP seems the preferred way to go.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on November 15, 2018, 12:40:13 pm
I needed to set my IP address rather than use DHCP (client). I did not understand from your posts if you were using DHCP or not in the settings.

It was told indirectly in my previous message (now underlined).


I know my scope IP exactly. When I set scope IP I know it and it do not change until I change it and changing it need really heavy reason not just because some automatic is "fun".
Routers are other things...  this is single oscilloscope standing alone and it have IP, known IP. Period. (in my case. ;) )

ETA: For clarify:
When oscilloscope DHCP is Enabled (Off) then there can not manually set IP so it push human as slave.   
If  DHCP Disabled (off) then I can manually set IP, SubnetMask and Gateway. And with this I'm master who command what is IP and what not and no one else.
(because I'm more wise than perhaps somehow clever machines  :-DD )

Perhaps next generation humans can give master to machines but as long as I live I give commands and take control over these machines what are under my control....
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on November 15, 2018, 02:01:51 pm
ETA: For clarify:
Perhaps next generation humans can give master to machines but as long as I live I give commands and take control over these machines what are under my control....


Then who decided to write in small font?? You or the machine?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bugmenot on November 18, 2018, 02:28:35 am
Moved to the appropriate thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/)).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 18, 2018, 06:50:33 am
If anyone's got a memory dump from their SDS1000X-E and is interested in parsing it for license keys, I've written a simple Python function to do it. It works with all dumps from my 'scope (1104X-E), but I only have one. It'd be great to hear if it works for others.

Code: [Select]
import re
import string

def getkeys(scopeid, serialno, memdumpfile):
    """
    Parse a memory dump from a Siglent 1000X-E oscilloscope and return a dict containing
    licence keys for bandwidths and options. The 'activebw' key is the one that is currently
    active in the 'scope (e.g. if the value of '100M' is the same as the value of 'activebw',
    the oscilloscope is software locked to 100 MHz bandwidth)
    """
    if len(scopeid) == 16 and set(scopeid) <= set(string.hexdigits):
        scopeid = scopeid.lower().encode('utf-8')
    else:
        raise ValueError('Scope ID must be 16 hexadecimal characters (remove dashes).')
   
    if len(serialno) == 14 and set(serialno) <= set(string.ascii_letters + string.digits):
        serialno = serialno.upper().encode('utf-8')
    else:
        raise ValueError('Serial number must be 14 alphanumeric characters.')

    f = open(memdumpfile, 'rb')
    data = f.read()
    f.close()

    regex_bw = re.compile(scopeid + b'.*?'+ scopeid + b'.*?([0-9A-Z]{16}).*?([0-9A-Z]{16}).*?([0-9A-Z]{16}).*?([0-9A-Z]{16}).*?([0-9A-Z]{16})', re.DOTALL)
    regex_opt = re.compile(serialno + b'.*?' + serialno + b'.*?([0-9A-Z]{48})', re.DOTALL)
   
    key_bw = list([n.decode('utf-8') for n in re.findall(regex_bw, data)[0]])
    key_opt = re.findall('.{16}', re.findall(regex_opt, data)[0].decode('utf-8'))
   
    keys = {}
    key_labels = ('100M', '200M', '50M', '70M', 'activebw', 'awg', 'wifi', 'mso')
    keys.update(zip(key_labels, key_bw + key_opt))

    return(keys)

The easiest way I've found to get a dump to parse is to run cat /dev/mem > /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/memdump.bin at a root prompt with a USB drive connected.
There's a thread dedicated to these things with others that have done similar:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bugmenot on November 18, 2018, 07:48:39 am
There's a thread dedicated to these things with others that have done similar:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/)

Thanks, I've moved it there.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on November 18, 2018, 11:35:08 am
And why DHCP need be on in Oscilloscope? For what?
DHCP client for obtaining an IP automatically.

I know my scope IP exactly. When I set scope IP I know it and it do not change until I change it and changing it need really heavy reason nost just because some automatic is "fun".
Routers are other things...  this is single oscilloscope standing alone and it have IP, known IP. Period. (in my case. ;) )

What use is a (fixed) IP address on a single standalone oscilloscope, i.e. not connected to any network?
On my local network I prefer to use DNS names instead IP addresses and pre-allocate IP address and DNS name based on MAC address. More flexible and less maintenance intensive when making any (testing) changes to the network, only requires a single central change on DNS server (router) instead of individually on each device.
When mobile (and not bringing your own network) the oscilloscope's IP will have to be changed anyway because IP settings are different per network.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on November 18, 2018, 11:44:40 am
A hands up please of those using the Siglent WiFi adapter TL‐WN725N.
Some reports on your experiences and range with this USB adapter please.

Regarding WiFi: Very unfortunately @Siglent still has not fixed the WiFi shared key bugs described in below linked post, while the issues should be very simple to fix.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1708814/?topicseen#msg1708814 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1708814/?topicseen#msg1708814)

Would it be possible to configure WiFi settings manually via SSH (on an enabled scope) and be able to successfully set a WPA2 PSK longer than the current (GUI?) limit of 20 characters (which is a bug)?

---===### SECURITY IS ESSENTIAL ###===---
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on November 18, 2018, 12:21:43 pm
It is fun but whole web is full of different but still somehow similar things and it looks more like total mess than just alone Siglent problem. Yes it is problem but where are this problems real root causes is ... just (linux?)mess.

Just Random sample quote  from some place (and bit duckducking and can easy find tons of)

Quote
I bought a TP-Link wireless nano USB adapter (TL-WN725N V2) to replace a malfunctioning PCI wireless card on my desktop computer. When I plug the USB adapter, the system recognizes all available networks, but it won't connect. It asks me for my password, start connecting... and then my password again, as if I'd put a wrong one. But I'm sure the password is ok.

The PCI card has been removed.

I use Lubuntu 16.04.02, and have a dual boot with Windows 7. In windows the adapter works fine.

Where are evidences that makes Siglent guilty to this mess.

But, so or so, of course this need attention and solution.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 19, 2018, 05:55:56 am
A hands up please of those using the Siglent WiFi adapter TL‐WN725N.
Some reports on your experiences and range with this USB adapter please.

Regarding WiFi: Very unfortunately @Siglent still has not fixed the WiFi shared key bugs described in below linked post, while the issues should be very simple to fix.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1708814/?topicseen#msg1708814 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1708814/?topicseen#msg1708814)

Would it be possible to configure WiFi settings manually via SSH (on an enabled scope) and be able to successfully set a WPA2 PSK longer than the current (GUI?) limit of 20 characters (which is a bug)?

---===### SECURITY IS ESSENTIAL ###===---
This is a constraint of the PSK type in the TP Link software Siglent has used for WiFi support in the SDS1kX-E models.
While researching my own WiFi issues I found this in the TP Link TL‐WN725N PDF users manual:

As for Key Index, you can select ASCII or Hexadecimal format from the drop-down list.
ASCII_64 - Please enter 5 ASCII characters.
ASCII_128 - Please enter 13 ASCII characters.
Hexadecimal_64 - Please enter 10 Hexadecimal digits (any combination of 0-9, a-f, A-F, excluded space).
Hexadecimal_128 - Please enter 26 Hexadecimal digits (any combination of 0-9, a-f, A-F, excluded space).


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on November 19, 2018, 06:38:08 am
A hands up please of those using the Siglent WiFi adapter TL‐WN725N.
Some reports on your experiences and range with this USB adapter please.

Regarding WiFi: Very unfortunately @Siglent still has not fixed the WiFi shared key bugs described in below linked post, while the issues should be very simple to fix.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1708814/?topicseen#msg1708814 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1708814/?topicseen#msg1708814)

Would it be possible to configure WiFi settings manually via SSH (on an enabled scope) and be able to successfully set a WPA2 PSK longer than the current (GUI?) limit of 20 characters (which is a bug)?

---===### SECURITY IS ESSENTIAL ###===---
This is a constraint of the PSK type in the TP Link software Siglent has used for WiFi support in the SDS1kX-E models.
While researching my own WiFi issues I found this in the TP Link TL‐WN725N PDF users manual:

As for Key Index, you can select ASCII or Hexadecimal format from the drop-down list.
ASCII_64 - Please enter 5 ASCII characters.
ASCII_128 - Please enter 13 ASCII characters.
Hexadecimal_64 - Please enter 10 Hexadecimal digits (any combination of 0-9, a-f, A-F, excluded space).
Hexadecimal_128 - Please enter 26 Hexadecimal digits (any combination of 0-9, a-f, A-F, excluded space).


But this is for WEP (old, extremely poor security, nearly like postcard)
Quote
If you’re still using WEP then you are nearly as vulnerable to wireless hacking as you would be without having any encryption because WEP is easily cracked by even the most novice hacker using freely available tools found on the Internet.

WPA2-PSK is very different
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bugi on November 19, 2018, 08:12:44 am
A hands up please of those using the Siglent WiFi adapter TL‐WN725N.
Some reports on your experiences and range with this USB adapter please.

Regarding WiFi: Very unfortunately @Siglent still has not fixed the WiFi shared key bugs described in below linked post, while the issues should be very simple to fix.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1708814/?topicseen#msg1708814 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1708814/?topicseen#msg1708814)

Would it be possible to configure WiFi settings manually via SSH (on an enabled scope) and be able to successfully set a WPA2 PSK longer than the current (GUI?) limit of 20 characters (which is a bug)?

---===### SECURITY IS ESSENTIAL ###===---
This is a constraint of the PSK type in the TP Link software Siglent has used for WiFi support in the SDS1kX-E models.
While researching my own WiFi issues I found this in the TP Link TL‐WN725N PDF users manual:

As for Key Index, you can select ASCII or Hexadecimal format from the drop-down list.
ASCII_64 - Please enter 5 ASCII characters.
ASCII_128 - Please enter 13 ASCII characters.
Hexadecimal_64 - Please enter 10 Hexadecimal digits (any combination of 0-9, a-f, A-F, excluded space).
Hexadecimal_128 - Please enter 26 Hexadecimal digits (any combination of 0-9, a-f, A-F, excluded space).

Also, if it expects users to input hexadecimal (which indeed don't need spaces) for obsolete protocols, then the input field should still allow 26 characters/digits, not just 20. As bluejedi mentioned in that linked message, WPA2 PSK key length is 8-63 printable ASCII characters (passphrase), or 64 hex digits (PSK directly), so it should be even longer than 26.

I used to have longer than 20 character keys in my wifis. I got fed up typing them in my small mobile devices so now they are "only" 15 characters on the guest wifis. My "secure" wifi networks (for work laptop and such) 'might' still have longer keys, much longer ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 19, 2018, 08:41:11 am
This happens to me every time, ive even tried hot spotting my phone :(
OK I think I have this WiFi stuff sorted.

1. Your IP settings must be known and correctly set and SAVED; IP, Subnet and Gateway.
2. Or, DCHP can be ON and let router provide the IP info and then SAVE it.
3. If there is still difficulty in getting a wireless connection revert to a wired LAN so a connection can be obtained so in the webrowser Welcome page LAN settings that are elsewhere not accessible can be changed for trouble free and instant connection.

In the webrowser LAN settings you can have DCHP ON or a static IP configuration that must be set in the Modify Settings page. Just be sure to double check webserver IP settings match the scope IP settings.


For some stupid reason I had a part of an IP in the Modify Settings page and it caused all sorts of problems and unreliability of WiFi.
Now it's rock solid.   :) :clap:


About the PSK, oh yes WPA2.  :-[
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on November 20, 2018, 09:59:01 pm
What makes it even worse is that WiFi is a paid option on these scopes. A paid option that currently sucks in 2 areas:
(I repeat:)
Above issues are a clear example of why IoT security often sucks and they should be fixed.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on November 20, 2018, 10:33:31 pm
This is a constraint of the PSK type in the TP Link software Siglent has used for WiFi support in the SDS1kX-E models.

IIRC I have used the same TP-Link adapter on a Linux system and WiFi WPA2 passphrase longer than 20 characters.
It's difficult to believe that actual TP-Link hardware or software would not comply with common WiFi standards because that is essential for their core business.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on November 20, 2018, 10:39:12 pm
What makes it even worse is that WiFi is a paid option on these scopes. A paid option that currently sucks in 2 areas:

Security is something that should be built-in. Not an add-on. So, free or paid the full functionality should exist. Period!

Having said that, a 20-char passphrase should be more than enough to ensure your security. When you are able to crack a 20-char password, WPA-PSK will be long dead.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 20, 2018, 10:45:13 pm
This is a constraint of the PSK type in the TP Link software Siglent has used for WiFi support in the SDS1kX-E models.

IIRC I have used the same TP-Link adapter on a Linux system and WiFi WPA2 passphrase longer than 20 characters.
It's difficult to believe that actual TP-Link hardware or software would not comply with common WiFi standards because that is essential for their core business.
Hmmm, one can only suspect the WiFi dongle coding Siglent has injected into their OS has been character # limited and in an email just sent I've asked them for info on any changes they are planning to address the issue you are having. Most of us don't need/want a long PSK but let's see what Siglent will reply about this.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on November 20, 2018, 10:50:07 pm
Having said that, a 20-char passphrase should be more than enough to ensure your security.

That's your opinion. A clause that many might argue and disagree with. This is why the specification defines a max length of 63 characters.
(Statements like above are the opposite of a motivation for Siglent to fix it).

The scope's WiFi security related limitations should not dictate how security settings on your standards compliant WiFi network should be set.
It should work on any standards compliant WiFi network but it currently does not, because it lacks compliance with basic WiFi standards (passphrase length).

My 2¢
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: lvz on November 22, 2018, 09:27:54 am
Would it be possible to configure WiFi settings manually via SSH (on an enabled scope) and be able to successfully set a WPA2 PSK longer than the current (GUI?) limit of 20 characters (which is a bug)?

The 20 character password limit does appear to be a Siglent GUI issue. I was able to work around this issue by modifying the underlying config file, and making the file immutable:



To revert the change, make wpa.conf mutable again:

chattr -i wpa.conf


I'm running firmware version 7.1.6.1.26, and this worked with both the TP-Link TL-WN725N (0bda:8179) and Logic Supply UWN200 (148f:7601) WiFi dongles.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Bakerboy on November 23, 2018, 09:17:48 am
Hey Thanks, That was the issue, didnt think it would be an issue in 2018
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 23, 2018, 09:22:03 am
Hey Thanks, That was the issue, didnt think it would be an issue in 2018
What was ?

Reply does not add the post you're replying to, for that you have to use the Quote button.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 23, 2018, 04:29:49 pm

That's your opinion. A clause that many might argue and disagree with. This is why the specification defines a max length of 63 characters.
(Statements like above are the opposite of a motivation for Siglent to fix it).

The scope's (unnecessary) WiFi security related limitations should not dictate how to configure security settings on your standards compliant WiFi network.
And the scope should work on any standards compliant WiFi network, not only WiFi networks that have been (mis)configured to the scope's lack of support for common WiFi standards.

My 2¢
It's accepted that a password of 8-9 characters should reasonably protect you from brute forcing at this point in time. About 20 characters should be more than enough for a thoroughly secure password. I do agree though, Siglent shouldn't limit you unnecessarily and should follow standards where applicable.

Of course, mitigating the issue could be done in more effective ways than simply slapping on a longer passphrase. Isolating the oscilloscope in its own VLAN or guest network helps you avoid potentially exposing the rest of the network. Considering how insecure the average networked equipment is, segmenting your network is not a bad idea.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on November 23, 2018, 05:32:36 pm
My additional 2 cents:  (I'm in favor of  standards but the standard must be rational.)

IMHO, the 63-char passphrase in this case is a nonsense!

For example, even a 43-char password implies more combinations than a 256-bit key. So, it would be easier to crack the WPA-PSK 256-bit key than the 43-char passphrase (that would be used to calculate the key).

So why they chose the 63-char? Probably because, in implementation terms, they decided to allow us to insert a 64 hex_chars (256 bits) key string. So, if I have a field to insert a 64 hex_char string, why not also allow people to insert a (up to) 63 char passphrase...

That brings another question, why should we comply with something that (apparently) doesn't make sense just because somebody assigned it a "standard" status?

If anyone knows where is my thinking error, please correct me.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bugi on November 23, 2018, 06:11:56 pm
It's accepted that a password of 8-9 characters should reasonably protect you from brute forcing at this point in time. About 20 characters should be more than enough for a thoroughly secure password. I do agree though, Siglent shouldn't limit you unnecessarily and should follow standards where applicable.
Mr. Scram, not knowing your background, just to make sure, you are aware that not all secrets/keys are "passwords" (sequences of fully random and independent characters), per se? And also that the effectiveness of the bits in the secret can vary depending on the use case? For example, consider the differences in the key length recommendations between AES (e.g. 256) and RSA (2048), etc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_size).
So, plainly stating "8 characters should be reasonable" without considering the context might be very, very misleading.

I admit that I do not know much about the WLAN protocols etc. and thus no idea how effectively a password/secret could be brute forced in that environment.

Also note that in many secure environments, 8 or 9 character passwords are no longer considered enough. E.g. all the non-trivial hosts and systems I have access to, no matter why/who is running them (job, university, bank as a client, etc.), the requirement has been 10 or more characters for few years already. 8 should be good enough for the typical random websites/forums, though.


tv84 (and others):
I read somewhere that the 63-char passphrase limit vs. 64 char hexkey is specifically so that the same input can be used for either style; if its length is within the 8-63 characters, it is a password or a passphrase; if it its length is exactly 64 it is the hex key.

Note that "passphrase" typically does not mean the same type of content as "password"; former is often considered to allow indeed phrases (e.g. sort gibberish sentences made from real words or word like sequences), while latter is typically considered to consists of more or less independent random characters (within allowed set of characters). Thus, passphrases consisting of words/word-likes, the correlation between characters in those words reduces the entropy value of each character quite a lot. That is why passphrases should be allowed to be quite a bit longer than normal random passwords. (I'm too lazy and busy to pick up scientific estimates on passphrase entropy estimations to copy here, feel free to google...)


That said, I think it could be considered that the implementation in the scope does not fulfill WPA2-PSK spec requirements, and thus should not be considered compatible with that. And since WPA2-PSK is the last commonly used method we have left that isn't considered basically useless, there should be quite some effort to make it work correctly. Security is fragile enough even without cutting corners like limiting key field lengths :P
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on November 23, 2018, 07:35:29 pm
Note that "passphrase" typically does not mean the same type of content as "password";

We all undestand what we are talking about. My final cents in this OT:

What I said was simply this: a 43-char (upper+lower+digits) pass can be more secure that any 32 8-bit symbols key.

The problem with using a common phrase it's the user's fault! No standard says to do that. Using 63-char quotes from the national anthem might be as unsafe as using the 0x00 0x01 0x02.... 0x1F binary key.

The user behavior is a big part of any security system, independently of the standards used.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on November 24, 2018, 01:32:09 am
That brings another question, why should we comply with something that (apparently) doesn't make sense just because somebody assigned it a "standard" status?
If anyone knows where is my thinking error, please correct me.

Luckily not everyone has that opinion about standards, otherwise the world would consist mainly of companies like Apple and something like USB would have never existed.
"This product will PROBABLY work with your WiFi network" will not do very good as promotional banner on the outside of the box.

Your thinking error is in the fact that the passphrase on MY network is longer than 20 characters. It was longer than 20 characters long before I bought the scope and all my networked devices have no problems with it whatsoever (which includes less than $2 costing IoT devices).
And then comes a relatively pricey advanced piece of testing equipment with a shitty WiFi implementation that does not work on my WiFi network, because of a stupid non-standard passphrase length limitation of 20 characters. That's just crap.
That TP-Link USB network adapter works perfectly fine within my WiFi network, on multiple devices, but not the scope.
Every location where you might bring your scope (on the road, presentations whatever) you have no control of other people's/companies' WiFi network (passphrase). You are only allowed to use their network, not to change it!
And then you tell their network guys that standards and passphrases longer than 20 characters are nonsense. They will probably say, well that must be an old scope sorry - and laugh. ;)
That is where your thinking goes wrong.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on November 24, 2018, 01:54:35 am
Note that "passphrase" typically does not mean the same type of content as "password";

We all undestand what we are talking about. My final cents in this OT:

What I said was simply this: a 43-char (upper+lower+digits) pass can be more secure that any 32 8-bit symbols key.

The problem with using a common phrase it's the user's fault! No standard says to do that. Using 63-char quotes from the national anthem might be as unsafe as using the 0x00 0x01 0x02.... 0x1F binary key.

Yes, in the last 25+ years we were taught (forced) to use complex (but relatively short) passwords/passphrases/keys (whatever). Short but complex and difficult for humans to remember.
While significantly longer ones (even when much simpler so humans can easier remember) are safer an much harder to crack.
That's why my WiFi passphrase is long but easy to remember.

Quote
The user behavior is a big part of any security system, independently of the standards used.

Correct. But this discussion is not about user behavior but about unnecessary and non-compliant security limitations of a product (scope).
Further, the scope also shows passphrase in clear text after entered and confirmed which is real bad practice.
It feels like Siglent has taken security and WiFi standards not very serious when implementing the WiFi stack on the scope.

It is my belief that we should not be discussing personal opinions about the use of standards and well accepted security features here, while the issues I mentioned are just bugs that should be fixed by Siglent.
For me the stupid 20-char passphrase limit is a showstopper and the displaying of passphrase in clear text a serious security issue.
Your mileage may vary.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 25, 2018, 06:35:39 am
Mr. Scram, not knowing your background, just to make sure, you are aware that not all secrets/keys are "passwords" (sequences of fully random and independent characters), per se? And also that the effectiveness of the bits in the secret can vary depending on the use case? For example, consider the differences in the key length recommendations between AES (e.g. 256) and RSA (2048), etc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_size).
So, plainly stating "8 characters should be reasonable" without considering the context might be very, very misleading.

I admit that I do not know much about the WLAN protocols etc. and thus no idea how effectively a password/secret could be brute forced in that environment.

Also note that in many secure environments, 8 or 9 character passwords are no longer considered enough. E.g. all the non-trivial hosts and systems I have access to, no matter why/who is running them (job, university, bank as a client, etc.), the requirement has been 10 or more characters for few years already. 8 should be good enough for the typical random websites/forums, though.


tv84 (and others):
I read somewhere that the 63-char passphrase limit vs. 64 char hexkey is specifically so that the same input can be used for either style; if its length is within the 8-63 characters, it is a password or a passphrase; if it its length is exactly 64 it is the hex key.

Note that "passphrase" typically does not mean the same type of content as "password"; former is often considered to allow indeed phrases (e.g. sort gibberish sentences made from real words or word like sequences), while latter is typically considered to consists of more or less independent random characters (within allowed set of characters). Thus, passphrases consisting of words/word-likes, the correlation between characters in those words reduces the entropy value of each character quite a lot. That is why passphrases should be allowed to be quite a bit longer than normal random passwords. (I'm too lazy and busy to pick up scientific estimates on passphrase entropy estimations to copy here, feel free to google...)


That said, I think it could be considered that the implementation in the scope does not fulfill WPA2-PSK spec requirements, and thus should not be considered compatible with that. And since WPA2-PSK is the last commonly used method we have left that isn't considered basically useless, there should be quite some effort to make it work correctly. Security is fragile enough even without cutting corners like limiting key field lengths :P
Sure, but we're not talking about RSA or similar things. We're talking about WIFI PSKs and essentially how easily they're brute forced. That's mostly what should make things more or less secure when talking about a WIFI PSK. Of course it'd be more accurate to talk about bits of entropy, but if people know what those are I probably don't need to tell them anything about it. Anyone who has "sunshine" or "123456789" for a password and thinks that's enough is asking for a lesson. It's not 1999 any more.

Also note that 8-9 characters is the current bare minimum. Having a 10 character requirement only seems sensible as a precaution. Of course, what the real world requires you to have isn't a good representation of what makes an effective password. For years we've been taught or forced to do things which turn out to be rather ineffective. Currently the world is shifting from single passwords to more sophisticated schemes like 2FA and conditional access. Especially the latter seems to give passwords a new lease of life, though it's generally accepted they're bound to disappear sooner or later. Like I said last time, the user also has things in his own hands if he applies network segmentation. Ensure the device can only talk to the parts of the network you want it to talk to and the PSK suddenly isn't as important as it would be otherwise. If one worries about 20 characters being enough, that shouldn't anything new.

Again, I do agree that Siglent would best adhere to existing standards.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: borjam on November 26, 2018, 12:16:50 pm
Again, I do agree that Siglent would best adhere to existing standards.
[/quote]
On security matters, standards are sacred, period.

What is not a problem right now can become a serious issue in an hour. Moreover, lack of respect for standards makes security harder to implement, which usually leads to sloppy practices.

So, no excuses. Siglent, do your job as soon as possible. These kind of mistakes are tickling time bombs. The tickling is deafening.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on November 27, 2018, 04:16:10 pm
(https://www.commitstrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Strip-Le-mot-d-epasse-du-noob-english650-final.jpg)
https://www.commitstrip.com/en/2018/04/27/security-security-security/ (https://www.commitstrip.com/en/2018/04/27/security-security-security/)  ;D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: photomankc on November 30, 2018, 04:47:28 pm
Well, I recently ordered a Rigol MSO1104Z but after detailed reading and spending a few hours using what I would describe as the most sluggish UI I have ever dealt with on an instrument I'm not convinced it's going to hang around.  I ordered a Siglent 1104X-E to try it out and see if I like it better.  I REALLY like that 4 channels at 500Ms/sec is possible and that it has higher waveform update rate as well.  I've read there however some serious issues with the MSO portion of it, or at least there were.  I've tried to read through this thread but I was wondering if there is a list of outstanding bugs that are still out there? 

Has the MSO/LA improved any?  That's a big feature to me and I have every intention of upgrading to it if it is not crippled. 

Are there any big show-stopper bugs still out there?

I have to say, purely on the look/feel of the UI and front panel I prefer the Rigol1000Z series, but once you step past the $360 price point the SIGLENT seems like better overall performance match to a 100Mhz (200 if I feel adventurous) scope.  If I am going to sell off my Rigol DS2202 I don't think I can really live with the RIGOL 1104Z's terrible sluggish response.  It feels like crap switching between the two.  If the SIGLENT is snappier then it's inexpensive enough to consider hanging onto my DS2202 as well.  I love that scope but I always wanted 4 channels but they were astronomical in the day.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 30, 2018, 06:42:48 pm
Well, I recently ordered a Rigol MSO1104Z but after detailed reading and spending a few hours using what I would describe as the most sluggish UI I have ever dealt with on an instrument I'm not convinced it's going to hang around.  I ordered a Siglent 1104X-E to try it out and see if I like it better.  I REALLY like that 4 channels at 500Ms/sec is possible and that it has higher waveform update rate as well.  I've read there however some serious issues with the MSO portion of it, or at least there were.  I've tried to read through this thread but I was wondering if there is a list of outstanding bugs that are still out there? 
Welcome to the forum.

Quote
Has the MSO/LA improved any?  That's a big feature to me and I have every intention of upgrading to it if it is not crippled. 
Are there any big show-stopper bugs still out there?
Not as far as I know. There has been a firmware update for SLA1016 a few months ago.

Quote
I have to say, purely on the look/feel of the UI and front panel I prefer the Rigol1000Z series, but once you step past the $360 price point the SIGLENT seems like better overall performance match to a 100Mhz (200 if I feel adventurous) scope.  If I am going to sell off my Rigol DS2202 I don't think I can really live with the RIGOL 1104Z's terrible sluggish response.  It feels like crap switching between the two.  If the SIGLENT is snappier then it's inexpensive enough to consider hanging onto my DS2202 as well.  I love that scope but I always wanted 4 channels but they were astronomical in the day.
Understandable as you're well used to the GUI/UI.
Like any instrument, let the operation of it take a little while to get used to you  :)  ;) and in no time you'll be able to switch between them without a second thought....sure that's harder if you use them infrequently.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: photomankc on November 30, 2018, 07:35:39 pm
Well, I recently ordered a Rigol MSO1104Z but after detailed reading and spending a few hours using what I would describe as the most sluggish UI I have ever dealt with on an instrument I'm not convinced it's going to hang around.  I ordered a Siglent 1104X-E to try it out and see if I like it better.  I REALLY like that 4 channels at 500Ms/sec is possible and that it has higher waveform update rate as well.  I've read there however some serious issues with the MSO portion of it, or at least there were.  I've tried to read through this thread but I was wondering if there is a list of outstanding bugs that are still out there? 
Welcome to the forum.

Quote
Has the MSO/LA improved any?  That's a big feature to me and I have every intention of upgrading to it if it is not crippled. 
Are there any big show-stopper bugs still out there?
Not as far as I know. There has been a firmware update for SLA1016 a few months ago.

Quote
I have to say, purely on the look/feel of the UI and front panel I prefer the Rigol1000Z series, but once you step past the $360 price point the SIGLENT seems like better overall performance match to a 100Mhz (200 if I feel adventurous) scope.  If I am going to sell off my Rigol DS2202 I don't think I can really live with the RIGOL 1104Z's terrible sluggish response.  It feels like crap switching between the two.  If the SIGLENT is snappier then it's inexpensive enough to consider hanging onto my DS2202 as well.  I love that scope but I always wanted 4 channels but they were astronomical in the day.
Understandable as you're well used to the GUI/UI.
Like any instrument, let the operation of it take a little while to get used to you  :)  ;) and in no time you'll be able to switch between them without a second thought....sure that's harder if you use them infrequently.


Hey thanks for the welcome!

My last point is really aimed at the Rigol MSO1104Z vs the Rigol DS2202.  The UI is really consistent actually, menus are easy because they work just alike on the two and frankly if the 1104Z had snappy response I likely wouldn't be looking around, but I was very disappointed with the UI speed on the Rigol 1104Z.  On the 2202 things move very quickly and the markers move and then the trace is right behind it.  On the 1104Z (Rigol) the trace sort of lumbers it's way towards and then past what you wanted and then the marker moves once you stop turning.   Similar with changing the V/div setting very easy to roll past what you want with no screen update till you stop turning.  The waveform zoom function is painful when you scroll horizontally.

I don't want to get used to that.  I didn't notice it that bad in the video demos but often you get fixated on the screen.  Now that I re-watch them I do notice it in the videos too.  It sure looks like the SIGLENT is much better in this regard.  If I can get 200Mhz unlocked then it may be a good replacement for my old 2202, both in channels and bandwidth.  I should have it this weekend to try out and decide.   Somebody has to go back and I *suspect* it will be the Rigol.  I'm only really torn about the MSO option right now.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 30, 2018, 07:48:25 pm
Well, I recently ordered a Rigol MSO1104Z but after detailed reading and spending a few hours using what I would describe as the most sluggish UI I have ever dealt with on an instrument I'm not convinced it's going to hang around.  I ordered a Siglent 1104X-E to try it out and see if I like it better.  I REALLY like that 4 channels at 500Ms/sec is possible and that it has higher waveform update rate as well.  I've read there however some serious issues with the MSO portion of it, or at least there were.  I've tried to read through this thread but I was wondering if there is a list of outstanding bugs that are still out there? 
Welcome to the forum.

Quote
Has the MSO/LA improved any?  That's a big feature to me and I have every intention of upgrading to it if it is not crippled. 
Are there any big show-stopper bugs still out there?
Not as far as I know. There has been a firmware update for SLA1016 a few months ago.

Quote
I have to say, purely on the look/feel of the UI and front panel I prefer the Rigol1000Z series, but once you step past the $360 price point the SIGLENT seems like better overall performance match to a 100Mhz (200 if I feel adventurous) scope.  If I am going to sell off my Rigol DS2202 I don't think I can really live with the RIGOL 1104Z's terrible sluggish response.  It feels like crap switching between the two.  If the SIGLENT is snappier then it's inexpensive enough to consider hanging onto my DS2202 as well.  I love that scope but I always wanted 4 channels but they were astronomical in the day.
Understandable as you're well used to the GUI/UI.
Like any instrument, let the operation of it take a little while to get used to you  :)  ;) and in no time you'll be able to switch between them without a second thought....sure that's harder if you use them infrequently.


Hey thanks for the welcome!

My last point is really aimed at the Rigol MSO1104Z vs the Rigol DS2202.  The UI is really consistent actually, menus are easy because they work just alike on the two and frankly if the 1104Z had snappy response I likely wouldn't be looking around, but I was very disappointed with the UI speed on the Rigol 1104Z.  On the 2202 things move very quickly and the markers move and then the trace is right behind it.  On the 1104Z (Rigol) the trace sort of lumbers it's way towards and then past what you wanted and then the marker moves once you stop turning.   Similar with changing the V/div setting very easy to roll past what you want with no screen update till you stop turning.  The waveform zoom function is painful when you scroll horizontally.

I don't want to get used to that.  I didn't notice it that bad in the video demos but often you get fixated on the screen.  Now that I re-watch them I do notice it in the videos too.  It sure looks like the SIGLENT is much better in this regard.  If I can get 200Mhz unlocked then it may be a good replacement for my old 2202, both in channels and bandwidth.  I should have it this weekend to try out and decide.   Somebody has to go back and I *suspect* it will be the Rigol.  I'm only really torn about the MSO option right now.

Thanks!
I was just finding the excellent review thread and spotted you were already reading it.  :)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/)

Like so many of the longer threads the 'real meat' of the advances and features fixed/added are near the front and end of threads so you just have to spend a little time doing the research.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 01, 2018, 02:51:56 pm
For any users that use SCPI, went digging and found some new commands. Including Flash Read / Write Commands and Calibration Read / Clear (no sign of write)
Below are all the commands that I presently know to work for these 2 devices, If you know of any others I am all ears.

The waveform commands described below control the AWG option addon,

http://www.siglent.com/2014EnglishWebsite/Documents/others/SDG-SCPI-Command(EN).pdf (http://www.siglent.com/2014EnglishWebsite/Documents/others/SDG-SCPI-Command(EN).pdf)

Code: [Select]
Short Form Long Form Subsystem Description
*CAL? *CAL? MISCELLANEOUS Performs complete internal calibration of the instrument.
*CLS *CLS STATUS Clears all status data registers
*ESE *ESE STATUS Sets the Standard Event Status Enable register (ESE).
*ESR? *ESR? STATUS Reads, clears the Event Status Register (ESR).
*IDN? *IDN? MISCELLANEOUS For identification purposes.
*OPC? *OPC? STATUS Sets the OPC bit in the Event Status Register (ESR).
*RCL *RCL SAVE/RECALL Recalls one of five nonvolatile panel setups.
*RST *RST SAVE/RECALL The *RST command initiates a device reset.
*SAV *SAV SAVE/RECALL Stores current state in nonvolatile internal memory.
*SRE *SRE STATUS Sets the Service Request Enable register (SRE).
*STB? *STB? STATUS Reads the contents of IEEE 488.
*TRG *TRG ACQUISITION Executes an ARM command.
*TST? *TST? MISCELLANEOUS Performas an Internal Self Test
ACAL MISCELLANEOUS Enables or disables automatic calibration.
ACQW ACQUIRE_WAY ACQUISITION Specifies the acquisition mode.
ALST? ALL_STATUS? STATUS Reads and clears the contents of all status registers.
AMPDBM AMPLITUDEDBM
ARM ARM_ACQUISITION ACQUISITION Changes acquisition state from "stopped" to "single".
ARWV ARBWAVE DATA SYSTEM Change arbitrary wave type.
ASET AUTOSETUP ACQUISITION Adjusts vertical, time base and trigger parameters.
ATTN ATTENUATION ACQUISITION Selects the vertical attenuation factor of the probe
AUTTS AUTO_TYPESET ACQUISITION Selects the display type of automatic setup.
AVGA AVERAGE_ACQUIRE ACQUISITION Selects the average times of average acquisition.
BSWV BASICWAVE
BTWL
BTWV BURSTWAVE SIGNAL Set or get burst wave parameters
BUZZ BUZZER MISCELLANEOUS Controls the built-in piezo-electric buzzer.
BWL BANDWIDTH_LIMIT ACQUISITION Enables/disables the bandwidth-limiting lowpass filter
CFLASH CLEARFLASH
CHDR COMMUNICATION Controls formatting of query responses.
CLRCALI CLEARCALIBRATION
CLSW CLEAR_SWEEPS FUNCTION Restarts the cumulative processing functions.
CMBN COMBINE
CMR? CMR? STATUS Reads and clears the Command error Register (CMR).
CONET COMM_NET COMMUNICATION Specifies network addresses of scope and printers.
CPL COUPLING ACQUISITION Selects the specified input channel‘s coupling mode.
CRMS CURSOR_MEASURE CURSOR Specifies the type of cursor/parameter measurement.
CRST CURSOR Allows positioning of any one of eight cursors.
CRVA? CURSOR_VALUE? CURSOR Returns trace values measured by specified cursors.
CSVS CSV_SAVE SAVE/RECALL Saves specified waveform data of CSV format to USB device.
CYMT CYMOMETER FUNCTION Returns the current cymometer value which displaying on the screen
DDR? DDR? STATUS Clears the Device Dependent Register (DDR).
DEF DEFINE? FUNCTION Specifies math expression for function evaluation
DELF DELETE_FILE MASS STORAGE Deletes files from mass storage.
DIR DIRECTORY MASS STORAGE Creates and deletes file directories.
DTJN DOT_JOIN DISPLAY Controls the interpolation lines between data points.
DUTYCALI DUTYCALIBRATION
EXR? EXR? STATUS Reads, clears the Execution error Register (EXR).
FCNT FreqCouNTer Sets or gets frequency counter parameters.
FCNTCALI FreqCouNTerCALIbration
FFTF FFT_FULLSCREEN FUNCTION Enables or disables to display the FFT trace full screen.
FFTS FFT_SCALE FUNCTION Selects the vertical scale of FFT trace.
FFTW FFT_WINDOW FUNCTION Selects the window of FFT.
FFTZ FFT_ZOOM FUNCTION Selects the zoom in/out times of FFT trace.
FILT FILTER FUNCTION Enables or disables the filter of specified source.
FILTS FILT_SET FUNCTION Selects the type of filter, and sets the limit value of filter
FLNM FILENAME MASS STORAGE Changes default filenames.
FPAR FRAME_PARAM HISTORY Get frame param.
FRAM FRAME_SET HISTORY History Frame No. set
FRSPAJT FreqReSPAJusT
FRTR FORCE_TRIGGER ACQUISITION Forces the instrument to make one acquisition.
FTIM FRAME_TIME HISTORY Get frame Acq. Time.
FVDISK FORMAT_VDISK MASS STORAGE Reads the capability of the USB device.
GCSV GET_CSV WAVEFORMTRANS Specifies waveform data of format to controller.
GRDS GRID_DISPLAY DISPLAY Selects the type of grid
HARM HARMONIC
HMAG HOR_MAGNIFY DISPLAY Horizontally expands the selected expansion trace.
HPOS HOR_POSITION DISPLAY Horizontally positions intensified zone‘s center.
INR? INR? STATUS Reads, clears INternal state change Register (INR).
INTS INTENSITY DISPLAY Sets the grid or trace/text intensity level.
INVS INVERT_SET DISPLAY Invert the trace or the math waveform of specified source.
INVT INVERT DISPLAY
LAGG
LANG LANGUAGE
LOCK LOCK MISCELLANEOUS Lock keyboard
MDWV MODULATEWAVE SIGNAL Set or get modulate wave parameters.
MENU MENU DISPLAY Enables or disables to display the current menu
MODE MODE
MSIZ MEMORY_SIZE FUNCTION Returns the maximal memory size
MTVD MATH_VERT_DIV ACQUISITION Controls the vertical sensitivity of math waveform of specified source.
MTVP MATH_VERT_POS ACQUISITION Controls the vertical position of math waveform of specified source.
NBFM NUMBERFORMAT
OFST OFFSET ACQUISITION Allows output channel vertical offset adjustment.
OUTP OUTPUT
PACL PARAMETER_CLR CURSOR Clears all current parameters in Custom, Pass/Fail.
PACU PARAMETER_CUSTOM CURSOR Controls parameters with customizable qualifiers.
PAVA? PARAMETER_VALUE? CURSOR Returns current parameter, mask test values
PESU PERSIST_SETUP DISPLAY Selects display persistence duration.
PFCM PF_CREATEM FUNCTION Creates the mask of the pass/fail.
PFCT PF_CONTROL FUNCTION Selects the "operate", "output" and the "stop on output" which are the options of pass/fail.
PFDD PF_DATEDIS FUNCTION Return the number of the pass/fail monitor which can be displayed on the screen
PFDS PF_DISPLAY FUNCTION Enables or disables to display the test and the message options of pass/fail
PFSL PF_SAVELOAD SAVE/RECALL Saves or recalls the created mask setting
PFST PF_SET FUNCTION Sets the X mask and the Y mask
PNSU PANEL_SETUP SAVE/RECALL Complements the *SAV/*RST commands.
PROD PRODUCT
PRTCALI PRINTCALIBRATION
RCPN RECALL_PANEL SAVE/RECALL Recalls a front-panel setup from mass storage.
REFS REF_SET FUNCTION Sets the reference waveform and its options.
RFLASH ReadFlash
RFLASHBLK ReadFlashBlock
ROSC ROSCillator Sets or gets the clock source.
SANU SAMPLE_NUM ACQUISITION Return the number of sampled points available from last acquisition and the trigger position
SARA SAMPLE_RATE ACQUISITION Return the sample rate of the scope
SAST SAMPLE_STATUS ACQUISITION Return the acquisition status of the scope
SCDP SCREEN_DUMP HARD COPY Causes a screen dump to controller.
SCFG SYSTEMCONFIG SYSTEM Set or get power on initializing parameter way.
SCSV SCREEN_SAVE DISPLAY Controls the automatic screen saver.
SET50 FUNCTION Sets the trigger level of the trigger source to the centre of the signal amplitude.
SKEW SKEW ACQUISITION Sets the skew of specified trace
SLFCALI SeLFCALIbration
STL STORELIST SIGNAL Get the list of store wave
STO STORE WAVEFORM TRANSFER Stores a trace in internal memory or mass storage.
STOP STOP ACQUISITION Immediately stops signal acquisition
STPN STORE_PANEL SAVE/RECALL Stores front-panel setup to mass storage.
STST STORE_SETUP WAVEFORM TRANSFER Controls the way in which traces are stored.
SWWV SWEEPWAVE SIGNAL Set or get sweep wave.
SXSA SINXX_SAMPLE ACQUISITION Sets the type of the interpolation
SYNC SYNC
TDIV TIME_DIV ACQUISITION Modifies the time base setting.
TMPL TEMPLATE WAVEFORM TRANSFER Produces a complete waveform template copy.
TRA TRACE DISPLAY Enables or disables the display of a trace.
TRCP TRIG_COUPLING ACQUISITION Sets the coupling mode of the specified trigger source.
TRDL TRIG_DELAY ACQUISITION Sets the time at which the trigger is to occur.
TRLV TRIG_LEVEL ACQUISITION Adjusts the trigger level of the specified trigger source
TRLV2 TRIG_LEVEL2 ACQUISITION Adjusts the second trigger level of the specified trigger source.
TRMD TRIG_MODE ACQUISITION The trigger mode.
TRPA TRIG_PATTERN ACQUISITION Sets the condition of the pattern trigger
TRSE TRIG_SELECT ACQUISITION Selects the condition that will trigger acquisition.
TRSL TRIG_SLOPE ACQUISITION Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
TRWI TRIG_WINDOW ACQUISITION Return relative height of the trigger window
UNIT UNIT ACQUISITION Sets the unit of specified trace
VDIV VOLT_DIV ACQUISITION Sets the vertical sensitivity
VKEY VIRTUALKEY SYSTEM Set the virtual key.
VOLTPRT Sets or gets state of over-voltage protection
WAIT WAIT ACQUISITION Prevents new analysis until current has been completed.
WF WAVEFORM WAVEFORMTRANS Gets the waveform from the instrument.
WFLASH WriteFlash
WFLASHBLK WriteFlaskBlock
WFSU WAVEFORM_SETUP WAVEFORMTRANS Specifies amount of waveform data to go to controller
WRFLASHBLK WriteReadFlashBlock
WVDT wavedata SIGNAL Get the wave data of store .
wvpr waveparameter causes instant disconnect on query
XYDS XY_DISPLAY DISPLAY Enables or disables to display the XY format
SYSTem:COMM:LAN:IPAD
SYSTem:COMM:LAN:SMAS
SYSTem:COMM:LAN:GAT
SYSTem:COMM:LAN:MAC
SYSTem:DATE
SYSTem:time
SYST:VERS
SYSTem:PON:TYPE?
SYSTem:PRESet:TYPE?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 02, 2018, 01:17:33 pm
Found some more, most of these relate to interfacing with the digital input device,

At this point I am mostly only able to dig out queries, as running arbitrary commands when things like CLEARFLASH are buried in there,

There is one command in there I dont really know the full story for, DMES, he appears to be a query expecting something after the question mark, but not yet found out what, equally Dmes and WVPR if run with no trailing term will instantly break SCPI, with WVPR also crashing the scope application.

Tautech, any input on why half these commands are not documented in the manuals?

Code: [Select]
Short Form Long Form Subsystem Description
*CAL? *CAL? MISCELLANEOUS Performs complete internal calibration of the instrument.
*CLS *CLS STATUS Clears all status data registers
*ESE *ESE STATUS Sets the Standard Event Status Enable register (ESE).
*ESR? *ESR? STATUS Reads, clears the Event Status Register (ESR).
*IDN? *IDN? MISCELLANEOUS For identification purposes.
*OPC? *OPC? STATUS Sets the OPC bit in the Event Status Register (ESR).
*RCL *RCL SAVE/RECALL Recalls one of five nonvolatile panel setups.
*RST *RST SAVE/RECALL The *RST command initiates a device reset.
*SAV *SAV SAVE/RECALL Stores current state in nonvolatile internal memory.
*SRE *SRE STATUS Sets the Service Request Enable register (SRE).
*STB? *STB? STATUS Reads the contents of IEEE 488.
*TRG *TRG ACQUISITION Executes an ARM command.
*TST? *TST? MISCELLANEOUS Performas an Internal Self Test
ACQW ACQUIRE_WAY ACQUISITION Specifies the acquisition mode.
ALST? ALL_STATUS? STATUS Reads and clears the contents of all status registers.
AMPDBM AMPLITUDEDBM
ARM ARM_ACQUISITION ACQUISITION Changes acquisition state from "stopped" to "single".
C:ARWV (AR) ARBWAVE DATA SYSTEM Change arbitrary wave type.
ASET AUTOSETUP ACQUISITION Adjusts vertical, time base and trigger parameters.
C:ATTN ATTENUATION ACQUISITION Selects the vertical attenuation factor of the probe
AUTTS AUTO_TYPESET ACQUISITION Selects the display type of automatic setup.
AVGA AVERAGE_ACQUIRE ACQUISITION Selects the average times of average acquisition.
C:BSWV (B) BASICWAVE
BTWL
C:BTWV BURSTWAVE SIGNAL Set or get burst wave parameters
BUZZ BUZZER MISCELLANEOUS Controls the built-in piezo-electric buzzer.
C:BWL BANDWIDTH_LIMIT ACQUISITION Enables/disables the bandwidth-limiting lowpass filter
CFLASH CLEARFLASH
CHDR COMMUNICATION Controls formatting of query responses.
CHS
CLRCALI CLEARCALIBRATION
CLSW COLOUR_SWITCH
CLEAR_SWEEPS FUNCTION Restarts the cumulative processing functions.
C:CMBN (c ) COMBINE
CMR? CMR? STATUS Reads and clears the Command error Register (CMR).
CONET COMM_NET COMMUNICATION Specifies network addresses of scope and printers.
C:CPL COUPLING ACQUISITION Selects the specified input channel‘s coupling mode.
CRMS CURSOR_MEASURE CURSOR Specifies the type of cursor/parameter measurement.
crsc CURSOR_SOURCE
C:CRST CURSOR_SET CURSOR Allows positioning of any one of eight cursors.
CRTY CURSOR_TYPE
C:CRVA? CURSOR_VALUE? CURSOR Returns trace values measured by specified cursors.
CSVS CSV_SAVE SAVE/RECALL Saves specified waveform data of CSV format to USB device.
CYMT CYMOMETER FUNCTION Returns the current cymometer value which displaying on the screen
C:DACC
DCD1
DCST (d)
DCVL
DDR? DDR? STATUS Clears the Device Dependent Register (DDR).
DEF DEFINE? FUNCTION Specifies math expression for function evaluation
DELF DELETE_FILE MASS STORAGE Deletes files from mass storage.
DIR DIRECTORY MASS STORAGE Creates and deletes file directories.
DMES Causes instant program crash
DTJN DOT_JOIN DISPLAY Controls the interpolation lines between data points.
DUTYCALI DUTYCALIBRATION
EMOD (e) EDUMODE
EXR? EXR? STATUS Reads, clears the Execution error Register (EXR).
FCNT FreqCouNTer Sets or gets frequency counter parameters.
FCNTCALI FreqCouNTerCALIbration
FDBKAJT FeeDBacKAJusT
FFTC FFT_CENTER The FFT_CENTER command sets the center frequency when FFT (Fast Fourier Transform) is selected.
FFTF FFT_FULLSCREEN FUNCTION Enables or disables to display the FFT trace full screen.
FFTP FFT_POS The FFT_POSITION command sets the vertical offset of FFT waveform
FFTS FFT_SCALE FUNCTION Selects the vertical scale of FFT trace.
FFTT FFT_TDIV The FFT_TDIV? query returns current horizontal scale of FFT waveform.
FFTU FFT_UNIT The FFT_UNIT command sets the vertical scale type of FFT
FFTW FFT_WINDOW FUNCTION Selects the window of FFT.
FILT FILTER FUNCTION Enables or disables the filter of specified source.
FILTS FILT_SET FUNCTION Selects the type of filter, and sets the limit value of filter
FLNM FILENAME MASS STORAGE Changes default filenames.
FPAR FRAME_PARAM HISTORY Get frame param.
FRAM FRAME_SET HISTORY History Frame No. set
FRSPAJT FreqReSPAJusT
FRTR FORCE_TRIGGER ACQUISITION Forces the instrument to make one acquisition.
FVDISK FORMAT_VDISK MASS STORAGE Reads the capability of the USB device.
GCSV GET_CSV WAVEFORMTRANS Specifies waveform data of format to controller.
GRDS GRID_DISPLAY DISPLAY Selects the type of grid
C:HADJ
C:HARM HARMONIC
HMAG HOR_MAGNIFY DISPLAY Horizontally expands the selected expansion trace.
HPOS HOR_POSITION DISPLAY Horizontally positions intensified zone‘s center.
HSIN HISTORY_INTERVAL
HSLST HISTORY_LIST The HISTORY_LIST command is used to set the state of history list.
HSMD HISTORY_MODE The HISTORY_MODE command is used to set the state of history mode.
HSST HISTORY_STATE
HSTA HOR_STATE
INR? INR? STATUS Reads, clears INternal state change Register (INR).
INTS INTENSITY DISPLAY Sets the grid or trace/text intensity level.
C:INVS INVERT_SET DISPLAY Invert the trace or the math waveform of specified source.
C:INVT INVERT DISPLAY
LAGG (LA)
LANG LANGUAGE
LED
MCBD MACHINE_BAND
C:MDWV (M) MODULATEWAVE SIGNAL Set or get modulate wave parameters.
MEAD MEASURE_DELAY The MEASURE_DELY command places the instrument in the continuous measurement mode and starts a type of delay measurement.
MENU MENU DISPLAY Enables or disables to display the current menu
MODE MODE
MSIZ MEMORY_SIZE FUNCTION Returns the maximal memory size
MTEN MATH_ENABLE
MTVD MATH_VERT_DIV ACQUISITION Controls the vertical sensitivity of math waveform of specified source.
MTVP MATH_VERT_POS ACQUISITION Controls the vertical position of math waveform of specified source.
NBFM (N) NUMBERFORMAT
C:OFST OFFSET ACQUISITION Allows output channel vertical offset adjustment.
C:OUTP OUTPUT
PACL PARAMETER_CLR CURSOR Clears all current parameters in Custom, Pass/Fail.
PACU PARAMETER_CUSTOM CURSOR Controls parameters with customizable qualifiers.
PAVA? PARAMETER_VALUE? CURSOR Returns current parameter, mask test values
PESU PERSIST_SETUP DISPLAY Selects display persistence duration.
PFBF PF_BUFFER The PF_BUFFER command sets the output mode when the test fails.
PFCM PF_CREATEM FUNCTION Creates the mask of the pass/fail.
PFDD PF_DATEDIS FUNCTION Return the number of the pass/fail monitor which can be displayed on the screen
PFDS PF_DISPLAY FUNCTION Enables or disables to display the test and the message options of pass/fail
PFEN PF_ENABLE The PF_ENABLE command enables or disables the Pass/Fail test features.
PFFS PF_FAIL_STOP The PF_FAIL_STOP command sets the switch of the ―stop on fail‖ function
PFOP PF_OPERATION The PF_OPERATION command controls to run or stop Pass/Fail test
PFSC PF_SOURCE The PF_SOURCE command sets measurement sources for Pass/Fail test.
PFSL PF_SAVELOAD SAVE/RECALL Saves or recalls the created mask setting
PFST PF_SET FUNCTION Sets the X mask and the Y mask
PNSU PANEL_SETUP SAVE/RECALL Complements the *SAV/*RST commands.
PRBD
C:PRI PRIORITY
PROD PRODUCT
PRTCALI PRINTCALIBRATION
RCPN RECALL_PANEL SAVE/RECALL Recalls a front-panel setup from mass storage.
REFCL REF_CLOSE The REF_CLOSE command closes the Reference function.
REFDS REF_DISPLAY The REF_DISPLAY command enables or disables the current reference channel shown on the screen.
REFLA REF_LOCATION The REF_LOCATION command selects the current reference channel.
REFPO REF_POSITION The REF_POSITION command sets the vertical offset of the current reference channel.
REFSA REF_SAVE The REF_SAVE command saves the waveform (screen range) of the specified source as the reference waveform
REFSC REF_SCALE The REF_SCALE command sets the vertical scale of the current reference channel
REFSR REF_SOURCE The REF_SOURCE command sets the reference waveform source.
RFLASH ReadFlash
RFLASHBLK ReadFlashBlock
ROSC ROSCillator Sets or gets the clock source.
SVAJTDT SaVeAJusTDaTa
SANU SAMPLE_NUM ACQUISITION Return the number of sampled points available from last acquisition and the trigger position
SARA SAMPLE_RATE ACQUISITION Return the sample rate of the scope
SAST SAMPLE_STATUS ACQUISITION Return the acquisition status of the scope
SCDP SCREEN_DUMP HARD COPY Causes a screen dump to controller.
SCFG (S) SYSTEMCONFIG SYSTEM Set or get power on initializing parameter way.
SCSV SCREEN_SAVE DISPLAY Controls the automatic screen saver.
SET50 FUNCTION Sets the trigger level of the trigger source to the centre of the signal amplitude.
C:SKEW SKEW ACQUISITION Sets the skew of specified trace
SLFCALI SeLFCALIbration
SRLN
STL (ST) STORELIST SIGNAL Get the list of store wave
STO STORE WAVEFORM TRANSFER Stores a trace in internal memory or mass storage.
STOP STOP ACQUISITION Immediately stops signal acquisition
STPN STORE_PANEL SAVE/RECALL Stores front-panel setup to mass storage.
STST STORE_SETUP WAVEFORM TRANSFER Controls the way in which traces are stored.
MATH:INVS INVERT_SET DISPLAY Invert the trace or the math waveform of specified source.
MATH:CRVA CURSOR_VALUE? CURSOR Returns trace values measured by specified cursors.
DI:WF
DI:WSF
DI:SARA SAMPLE_RATE? The SARA? query returns the sample rate of the scope.
DI:LTV LOCAL_VALID
DI:CMF CMD_FINISHED
DI:STTA START_ACQ
DI:STPA STOP_ACQ
DI:SRLN
DI:THAD THREADJ
DI:HISM HIST_MODE
DI:SV SOFTWARE_VERSION
DI:PV PCB_VERSION
DI:FV FPGA_VERSION
DI:FR FREQ
DI:BV BOM_VERSION
DI:SW SWITCH The SWITCH command is used to set the state of digital.
C:SWWV (sw) SWEEPWAVE SIGNAL Set or get sweep wave.
SVADJDT?
SXSA SINXX_SAMPLE ACQUISITION Sets the type of the interpolation
:SYNC SYNC
TDIV TIME_DIV ACQUISITION Modifies the time base setting.
TMPL TEMPLATE WAVEFORM TRANSFER Produces a complete waveform template copy.
D:TRA TRACE DISPLAY Enables or disables the display of a trace.
C:TRA TRACE DISPLAY Enables or disables the display of a trace.
C:TRCP TRIG_COUPLING ACQUISITION Sets the coupling mode of the specified trigger source.
TRDL TRIG_DELAY ACQUISITION Sets the time at which the trigger is to occur.
TRDP TRIG_DROP
C:TRLV TRIG_LEVEL ACQUISITION Adjusts the trigger level of the specified trigger source
C:TRLV2 TRIG_LEVEL2 ACQUISITION Adjusts the second trigger level of the specified trigger source.
TRMD TRIG_MODE ACQUISITION The trigger mode.
TRNR TRIG_NOISEREJ
TRPA TRIG_PATTERN ACQUISITION Sets the condition of the pattern trigger
TRSE TRIG_SELECT ACQUISITION Selects the condition that will trigger acquisition.
C:TRSL TRIG_SLOPE ACQUISITION Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D:TRSL TRIG_SLOPE ACQUISITION Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
L8:TSM THRESHOLD_MODE The THRESHOLD_MODE command sets the threshold type for the specified group of channels.
L8:CUS CUSTOM The CUSTOM command sets the threshold value by customer for the specified group of channels
H8:CUS CUSTOM The CUSTOM command sets the threshold value by customer for the specified group of channels
H8:TSM THRESHOLD_MODE The THRESHOLD_MODE command sets the threshold type for the specified group of channels.
TRSR TRIG_SOURCE Trigger Source
TRST TRIG_STATUS
TRWI TRIG_WINDOW ACQUISITION Return relative height of the trigger window
C:UNIT UNIT ACQUISITION Sets the unit of specified trace
C:VDIV VOLT_DIV ACQUISITION Sets the vertical sensitivity
C:VGAC
VKEY VIRTUALKEY SYSTEM Set the virtual key.
VOLTPRT Sets or gets state of over-voltage protection
WAIT WAIT ACQUISITION Prevents new analysis until current has been completed.
WF WAVEFORM WAVEFORMTRANS Gets the waveform from the instrument.
WFLASH WriteFlash
WFLASHBLK WriteFlaskBlock
WFSU WAVEFORM_SETUP WAVEFORMTRANS Specifies amount of waveform data to go to controller
WRFLASHBLK WriteReadFlashBlock
WFDA saves waveform data to user folder on device
WFSU WAVEFORM_SETUP Waveform Setup
WVDT wavedata SIGNAL Get the wave data of store .
wvpr waveparameter The WAVE_PARA? query returns the location, name, frequency, amplitude, and offset of four arbitrary waveforms.
XYDS XY_DISPLAY DISPLAY Enables or disables to display the XY format
SYST:COMM:LAN:IPAD SYSTem:COMMunicate:LAN:IPADdress Set a host name for the signal generator in network
SYST:COMM:LAN:SMAS SYSTem:COMMunicate:LAN:SMASk Set the subnet mask according to the PC network Settings. The subnet mask will be set automatically if the IP assignment is set to DHCP.
SYST:COMM:LAN:GAT SYSTem:COMMunicate:LAN:GATeway Set the gateway for the signal generator in the network. The gateway will be fetched automatically if the IP assignment is set to DHCP.
SYST:COMM:LAN:TYPE SYSTem:COMMunicate:LAN:TYPE Toggles the IP assignment Setting between static (manual) and DHCP (dynamic assignment) mode.
SYST:COMM:MAC SYSTem:COMMunicate:LAN:MAC
SYST:DATE SYSTem:DATE System Date
SYST:time SYSTem:time System Time
SYST:VERS SYSTem:VERSion
SYST:PON:TYPE SYSTem:PON:TYPE Uses command to set signal generator to power on in default, last. Get power on type.
SYST:PRES:TYPE SYSTem:PRESet:TYPE Uses this command to preset the signal generator to default, user.
SYST:PRES:SAVE SYSTem:PRESet:SAVE Save status for preset when preset type is user.
SYST:PRES SYSTem:PRESet Presets all parameters.
SOUR:PRES SOURce:PRESet Presets all parameters which are related to the selected signal path
SYST:PRES:PATH SYSTem:PRESet:PATH Set preset file when preset type is user
SYST:FDEF SYSTem:FDEFault
SYST:ERR SYSTem:ERRor
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on December 02, 2018, 01:36:29 pm
Found some more, most of these relate to interfacing with the digital input device,

At this point I am mostly only able to dig out queries, as running arbitrary commands when things like CLEARFLASH are buried in there,

There is one command in there I dont really know the full story for, DMES, he appears to be a query expecting something after the question mark, but not yet found out what, equally Dmes and WVPR if run with no trailing term will instantly break SCPI, with WVPR also crashing the scope application.

See here

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lists-of-siglent-scpi-commands/msg1793117/#msg1793117 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lists-of-siglent-scpi-commands/msg1793117/#msg1793117)

I also have a big list of all the SDS X-E (according to the code) but I can't find it now...  |O

Your "DMES" is DMESG (similar as in unix).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 02, 2018, 07:27:29 pm

Tautech, any input on why half these commands are not documented in the manuals?

As I browse through them most appear to be the equivalents of UI functions, ie. available within the user menus and sub-menus.
Some are specific to options and external connections however there's no doubt others will be factory configuration commands.
The official SCPI command set:
https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/2617/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/2617/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on December 02, 2018, 07:37:06 pm
On the 1104Z (Rigol) the trace sort of lumbers it's way towards and then past what you wanted and then the marker moves once you stop turning.
frankly if the 1104Z had snappy response I likely wouldn't be looking around, but I was very disappointed with the UI speed on the Rigol 1104Z.

It's only really the vertical movement that's slow and a lot of the problem can be mitigated by technique. I made a video a while back:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-ds1054z-vertical-response-discussion-thread/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-ds1054z-vertical-response-discussion-thread/)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on December 02, 2018, 09:20:30 pm
Has the MSO/LA improved any?  That's a big feature to me and I have every intention of upgrading to it if it is not crippled. 

Are there any big show-stopper bugs still out there?
The integration of the MSO option with the SDS1004X-E DSO is not great, so you can call it crippled indeed, when compared to the fully integrated solutions in SDS1000X+ and SDS2000X.

Last time I've checked it about 9 months ago, there has been some 7ns skew between analog and digital channels and the digital deskew parameter was not preserved upon a power cycle. I expect this bug to be fixed by now though.

Mixed channel Pattern Trigger is not supported, so it has to be either an analog or digital pattern.

Furthermore, both History and Zoom don't work when digital channels are enabled. Since most people want the MSO for decoding serial buses nowadays, this means you cannot decode long messages, because the decoder line at the bottom of the screen will become unreadable due to the lack of space. Using analog channels, you can easily deal with that by just entering zoom mode and take a closer look at the part of the message you're interested in. As it is now, when using digital channels you're almost limited to the capabilities of a Rigol 1000Z which only decodes the screen buffer anyway

The limitation described above only applies in run mode though. You can still capture a long message and then zoom in and navigate through the message while in stop mode. Also the list view works during Run even for very long messages, but that's rather pointless as you cannot closely examine the corresponding waveform – you might just as well use an LA instead.

Other than that, it's not all that bad. Here is an example how a 100MHz SDS1104X-E is capable of capturing a 320MHz sinewave with only 1.5Vpp amplitude on a logic channel of the SLA1016:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=586376;image)
SLA1016_D12_Sine_320MHz_1.5Vpp

A 4ns wide pulse – heavily distorted when viewed on the analog channel at just 100MHz bandwidth, but nicely captured on the digital channel:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=586382;image)
SLA1016_AD_Pulse_5V_4ns_probe

16 digital channels, grouped into 2 parallel buses, captured at 1GSa/s with 14Mpts record length. This also demonstrates how the decoded values become unreadable in the busy regions, where we get just blue bars. In stop mode, zooming into these regions wouldn't be a problem though. I just don't happen to have a screenshot at hand for that.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=586388;image)
SLA1016_Bus_Select

Finally a digital pattern trigger. Two buses again, the first (lower) one decoded binary, the 2nd (upper) one decimal:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=586394;image)
SLA1016_Trig_Pattern_1us

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: photomankc on December 02, 2018, 10:10:04 pm
Thanks!  That's helpful to know.

I'll probably go ahead and get the LA later on next year.  It's not a show stopping thing for me not to have it, just something that I would like to have.  Looks like for the things I would typically like to use it for it would work though that lack of decode in a zoom is a bummer.  I appreciate the insights!


So I've processed the return for the Rigol MSO1104Z.  Just not what I wanted for a scope that cost about $800.  I'm not a Rigol hater, I have loved my 2202 and I like aspects of Rigol's interface better but they just did not impress me with the 1104Z.  After unboxing and playing with the SIGLENT and trying out the web server interface that is WAY more responsive and useful than the windows-only UltraVision stuff, it was an easy choice for me.  Glad I learned about this option here before return time ran out.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 03, 2018, 11:54:28 am
tv84: I've searched every one of your posts on the forum and cannot find anything like what your describing other than the text file, Any chance you could post that list if you still have it?

There are things like how to make the scope enter bode plot mode with certain parameters that is still unclear to me.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on December 03, 2018, 12:40:53 pm
tv84: I've searched every one of your posts on the forum and cannot find anything like what your describing other than the text file, Any chance you could post that list if you still have it?

There are things like how to make the scope enter bode plot mode with certain parameters that is still unclear to me.

Sorry, when I said I had it, was in my home... somewhere. Not in the forum.

I'll try to compile something again.

But I don't refer to the specific parameters. Only the commands.

Of course if you have any specific command it can be analysed with more detail in the code to try understand its parameters.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: photomankc on December 04, 2018, 06:03:28 am
Is there any facility to change the labels of the channels?  I didn't see it in the manual or playing arounds in the UI, so my guess is there isn't but thought I would confirms that.  That'll be something I miss a little bit.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on December 04, 2018, 03:55:35 pm
Is there any facility to change the labels of the channels?  I didn't see it in the manual or playing arounds in the UI, so my guess is there isn't but thought I would confirms that.  That'll be something I miss a little bit.
You're right, the analog channels don't have customizable labels.

It sounds like a cool feature, but there is also hardly any spare space to support meaningful labels on Siglent X-E scopes.

Does Rigol DS1000Z have this?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on December 04, 2018, 04:08:20 pm
Is there any facility to change the labels of the channels?  I didn't see it in the manual or playing arounds in the UI, so my guess is there isn't but thought I would confirms that.  That'll be something I miss a little bit.
You're right, the analog channels don't have customizable labels.

It sounds like a cool feature, but there is also hardly any spare space to support meaningful labels on Siglent X-E scopes.

Does Rigol DS1000Z have this?

It does. But without a keyboard it is pain in the rear to edit it.

Do the Siglents 1000X-E series support external keyboard on USB? That would be very nice, and for me I would pick them instead of DS1000Z just for that. Arcade style word writing with button is pain..

Regards,

Sinisa
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: photomankc on December 04, 2018, 04:12:20 pm
I believe the 1000Z does do this.  I'm pretty sure I've seen a few shots posted here that show it but I can't confirm as mine is in UPS' hands headed back.  I know my 2202 does it.

I agree that there is no real room on the marker flag, but there could be some on the channel "cards" on the right side under the channel number tab indent.  It would be helpful when you make screen shots not to have to include a legend each time explaining what the traces are. 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on December 04, 2018, 05:42:37 pm
I agree that there is no real room on the marker flag, but there could be some on the channel "cards" on the right side under the channel number tab indent.  It would be helpful when you make screen shots not to have to include a legend each time explaining what the traces are. 
Yes, it would be a nice feature, no doubt.

Yet in the Siglent UI, there is no space left in the channel tabs as there should be additional icons for bandwidth limit, channel inversion and probe attenuation factor. Since I don't see these in your screenshot, I'm wondering if you have the latest firmware installed (7.6.1.26)?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: photomankc on December 04, 2018, 05:57:56 pm
Damn.  It was a thought.  Not a big thing.  Just a wish.  I’ll check firmware version tonight.  That was a stolen screenshot from the interwebs. 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 04, 2018, 06:28:34 pm
Damn.  It was a thought.  Not a big thing.  Just a wish.  I’ll check firmware version tonight.  That was a stolen screenshot from the interwebs.
A trace name could probably be implemented and best it would be the same color as the trace and at the 0V position just inside the active display window alongside the left channel indicator. Best it would be character # limited to maybe 5 characters which would suit most needs.
The virtual keyboard like that used for the WiFi PSK would be a good selection to accomplish this.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: photomankc on December 04, 2018, 07:11:52 pm
Damn.  It was a thought.  Not a big thing.  Just a wish.  I’ll check firmware version tonight.  That was a stolen screenshot from the interwebs.
A trace name could probably be implemented and best it would be the same color as the trace and at the 0V position just inside the active display window alongside the left channel indicator. Best it would be character # limited to maybe 5 characters which would suit most needs.
The virtual keyboard like that used for the WiFi PSK would be a good selection to accomplish this.

I would love that if they could do it!  4 or 5 characters would be great.  Just enough that captures are somewhat self-documenting.  There are spots the option could go in the channel menus and stay 2 pages.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 04, 2018, 07:30:35 pm
Damn.  It was a thought.  Not a big thing.  Just a wish.  I’ll check firmware version tonight.  That was a stolen screenshot from the interwebs.
A trace name could probably be implemented and best it would be the same color as the trace and at the 0V position just inside the active display window alongside the left channel indicator. Best it would be character # limited to maybe 5 characters which would suit most needs.
The virtual keyboard like that used for the WiFi PSK would be a good selection to accomplish this.

I would love that if they could do it!  4 or 5 characters would be great.  Just enough that captures are somewhat self-documenting.  There are spots the option could go in the channel menus and stay 2 pages.
Yes, that is only the sensible place to put any channel naming scheme.....the channel menu on P2.  :)

Edit
Spelling correction.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: photomankc on December 04, 2018, 08:15:18 pm
Damn.  It was a thought.  Not a big thing.  Just a wish.  I’ll check firmware version tonight.  That was a stolen screenshot from the interwebs.
A trace name could probably be implemented and best it would be the same color as the trace and at the 0V position just inside the active display window alongside the left channel indicator. Best it would be character # limited to maybe 5 characters which would suit most needs.
The virtual keyboard like that used for the WiFi PSK would be a good selection to accomplish this.

I would love that if they could do it!  4 or 5 characters would be great.  Just enough that captures are somewhat self-documenting.  There are spots the option could go in the channel menus and stay 2 pages.
Yes, that is only the sensible place to put and channel naming scheme.....the channel menu on P2.  :)

Not the label... the option to set the label.  Which other menu makes more sense for that?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on December 04, 2018, 08:24:11 pm
On DS1000Z it is in channel setup. It is implemented very nicely except the fact that you have to use virtual keyboard to enter text.

I'm telling you, convince Siglent to enable keyboard driver on USB, so you can use keyboard for any numeric or alpha entry.
Touch screen scopes most useful feature is that you gain keyboard. External keyboard (you can get one of those small wireless media thingies) and you are cooking...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 04, 2018, 09:34:21 pm
Silly question, is the SAG1021 a usb SCPI device, or is it literally a fancy DAC for the scope with no real USB functionality if connected directly to a PC?

Currently away from home until the end of the week, so not able to answer this for myself.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: katagia on December 05, 2018, 06:33:29 pm
Hi

Has anyone here tried to use a waveform generator from siglent which is not the SAG1021?
Will the SDG830 work for bode plots?
Do I need the additional software license for bode plots? I the manual the option is only mentioned for the "Arbitrary Waveform Generator". The bode plot is mentioned in a complete different chapter.

I would prefer the SDG830 because it will work standalone ans as a complete user interface. It would be nice to use it to record bode plots.

Thank you very much.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 05, 2018, 06:42:55 pm
Hi

Has anyone here tried to use a waveform generator from siglent which is not the SAG1021?
Will the SDG830 work for bode plots?
Do I need the additional software license for bode plots? I the manual the option is only mentioned for the "Arbitrary Waveform Generator". The bode plot is mentioned in a complete different chapter.

I would prefer the SDG830 because it will work standalone ans as a complete user interface. It would be nice to use it to record bode plots.

Thank you very much.
Welcome to the forum.

Yes any of the Siglent AWG's will provide Bode plot functionality with zero licensing requirements.....plug and play.
Bode plot is a free feature, all that's needed for it is a sweeping sinewave controlled by the scope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: commongrounder on December 05, 2018, 07:35:36 pm
Hi

Has anyone here tried to use a waveform generator from siglent which is not the SAG1021?
Will the SDG830 work for bode plots?
Do I need the additional software license for bode plots? I the manual the option is only mentioned for the "Arbitrary Waveform Generator". The bode plot is mentioned in a complete different chapter.

I would prefer the SDG830 because it will work standalone ans as a complete user interface. It would be nice to use it to record bode plots.

Thank you very much.
Welcome to the forum.

Yes any of the Siglent AWG's will provide Bode plot functionality with zero licensing requirements.....plug and play.
Bode plot is a free feature, all that's needed for it is a sweeping sinewave controlled by the scope.

I have been using a Siglent SDG1005 with my SDS1104x-e for bode plotting, and it works just fine, and, as mentioned, no additional software needed.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: katagia on December 08, 2018, 12:26:35 pm
Thank you to both of you for your clearification.

I have bought the SDG830 for 200€ which is compareable to the SAG1021 but has it's own user interface, little higher output frequency and output voltage.

The bode plot feature has worked out of the box.
I tried the AWG interface of the 1204 but it doesn't recognize the SDG830. Is the feature limited to the SAG1021?
The temporary license with 30 uses should be sufficient?
The only thing I am missing in this setup is I can't control the AWG via LAN.

Did I miss anything else which is possible with the SAG1021?

Thank you very much.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on December 08, 2018, 12:47:58 pm
I tried the AWG interface of the 1204 but it doesn't recognize the SDG830. Is the feature limited to the SAG1021?
The temporary license with 30 uses should be sufficient?
The only thing I am missing in this setup is I can't control the AWG via LAN.

Did I miss anything else which is possible with the SAG1021?
The AWG control in the SDS1204X-E is for the "faceless" SAG1021 only. You cannot control any other AWG with that.

And to be honest, who would want to do that anyway? Even your cheap SDG830 can do more things than the control interface in the SDS1004X-E would allow you to do, and then a real physical user interface as on the SDG830 is much nicer to use anyway.

Many Siglent AWGs can be controlled via LAN by means of the EasyWaveX application, but the 800 entry level series is limited to USB.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: katagia on December 08, 2018, 01:10:20 pm
In my case the 1204 could be used as lan to usb bridge when it wouls support other AWGs that way.
Could be handy for automation.

I aggree you about the SDG830. I think I'm lucky to get it for 200€. It has been delivered with a very ancient firmware version. Seems to be some remaining stock.

I know there are other AWGs with LAN. I have no use for it at the moment.
I just want to analyze the differences.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 08, 2018, 07:23:21 pm

I aggre you about the SDG830. I think I'm lucky to get it for 200€. It has been delivered with a very ancient firmware version. Seems to be some remaining stock.
Please see that you update the FW to version 1.08.01.13R6 at your earliest convenience.
https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/waveform-generators/#sdg800-series (https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/waveform-generators/#sdg800-series)

Inside that version is provision to recover the SDG800 should it ever experience a boot freeze/failure.
In such cases the USB boot recovery software is available from Siglent.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 09, 2018, 12:08:07 am
Tautech, you might want the devs to get a spell checker :)

SYSTtem:ERRor?, has 1 too many "t"

MEAASURE_STATUS. 1 too many A's at a guess

DIGITAL:RESET_DDR, has a ? on the short but not the long name
DIGITAL:HIST_MODE, same as ^

And with that I leave what I believe to be every command available on this scope, (could not find where syst:date was, so may have missed some?), mopstly added this time is the decoding, for more digital stuff, decoding/external/ac line triggering.

The 2 different flavors of external triggering have me curious if there is a way to hook up an external trigger.

And sadly no sign of bode plot commands for me.

Code: [Select]
*CAL? Performs complete internal calibration of the instrument.
*CLS Clears all status data registers
*ESE Sets the Standard Event Status Enable register (ESE).
*ESE? Sets the Standard Event Status Enable register (ESE).
*ESR? Reads, clears the Event Status Register (ESR).
*IDN? For identification purposes.
*OPC? Sets the OPC bit in the Event Status Register (ESR).
*RCL Recalls one of five nonvolatile panel setups.
*RSI
*RST The *RST command initiates a device reset.
*SAV Stores current state in nonvolatile internal memory.
*SRE Sets the Service Request Enable register (SRE).
*SRE? Sets the Service Request Enable register (SRE).
*TST? Performas an Internal Self Test
*WAI
ACENBT ACquire_Enhance_BiTs
ACENBT? ACquire_Enhance_BiTs?
ACQW ACQuire_Way Specifies the acquisition mode.
ACQW? ACQuire_Way? Specifies the acquisition mode.
ACSQM ACquire_SeQuence_Mode
ACSQS ACquire_SeQuence_Seg
ALST? ALL_STATUS? Reads and clears the contents of all status registers.
AMEATAT ALL_MEASURE_STATUS
ARM ARM_AQUISITION
ARWV? ARBWAVE? Change arbitrary wave type.
ASET AUTOSETUP Adjusts vertical, time base and trigger parameters.
AVGA AVeraGe_Acquire Selects the average times of average acquisition.
AVGA? AVeraGe_Acquire? Selects the average times of average acquisition.
B1:DCCN B1:DECO_CAN
B1:DCIC B1:DeCo_IiC
B1:DCLN B1:DECO_LIN
B1:DCSP B1:DECO_SPI
B1:DCUT B1:DECO_UART
B2:DCCN B2:DECO_CAN
B2:DCIC B2:DECO_IIC
B2:DCLN B2:DECO_LIN
B2:DCSP B2:DECO_SPI
B2:DCUT B2:DECO_UART
BOARDTEST?
BSWV? BASICWAVE? Set or get basic wave parameters
BTWV? BURSTWAVE? Set or get burst wave parameters
BUZZ BUZZER Controls the built-in piezo-electric buzzer.
BUZZ? BUZZER? Controls the built-in piezo-electric buzzer.
BWL BANDWIDTH_LIMIT Enables/disables the bandwidth-limiting lowpass filter
BWL? BANDWIDTH_LIMIT? Enables/disables the bandwidth-limiting lowpass filter
C1:ARWV C1:ARBWAVE Change arbitrary wave type.
C1:ARWV? C1:ARBWAVE? Change arbitrary wave type.
C1:ATTN C1:ATTENUATION Selects the vertical attenuation factor of the probe
C1:ATTN? C1:ATTENUATION? Selects the vertical attenuation factor of the probe
C1:BSWV C1:BASICWAVE Set or get basic wave parameters
C1:BSWV? C1:BASICWAVE? Set or get basic wave parameters
C1:BTWV C1:BURSTWAVE Set or get burst wave parameters
C1:BTWV? C1:BURSTWAVE? Set or get burst wave parameters
C1:BWL C1:BANDWIDTH_LIMIT Enables/disables the bandwidth-limiting lowpass filter
C1:BWL? C1:BANDWIDTH_LIMIT? Enables/disables the bandwidth-limiting lowpass filter
C1:CMBN C1:COMBINE
C1:CMBN? C1:COMBINE?
C1:CPL C1:COUPLING Selects the specified input channel‘s coupling mode.
C1:CPL? C1:COUPLING? Selects the specified input channel‘s coupling mode.
C1:CRST C1:CURSOR_SET Allows positioning of any one of eight cursors.
C1:CRST? C1:CURSOR_SET? Allows positioning of any one of eight cursors.
C1:CRVA? C1:CURSOR_VALUE? Returns trace values measured by specified cursors.
C1:DAC_ATTEN
C1:DAC_ATTEN_SET
C1:DAC_ATTEN_SET
C1:DACC
C1:DACC?
C1:HADJ C1:HORIZON_ADJ
C1:HADJ? C1:HORIZON_ADJ?
C1:HARM C1:HARMONIC
C1:HARM? C1:HARMONIC?
C1:INVS C1:INVERT_SET Invert the trace or the math waveform of specified source.
C1:INVS? C1:INVERT_SET? Invert the trace or the math waveform of specified source.
C1:INVT C1:INVERT
C1:INVT? C1:INVERT?
C1:MDWV C1:MODULATEWAVE Set or get modulate wave parameters.
C1:MDWV? C1:MODULATEWAVE? Set or get modulate wave parameters.
C1:OFST C1:OFFSET Allows output channel vertical offset adjustment.
C1:OFST? C1:OFFSET? Allows output channel vertical offset adjustment.
C1:OUTP C1:OUTPUT
C1:OUTP? C1:OUTPUT?
C1:PAVA? C1:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
C1:PRI C1:PRIORITY
C1:PRI? C1:PRIORITY?
C1:SKEW Sets the skew of specified trace
C1:SKEW? Sets the skew of specified trace
C1:SRATE C1:SAMPLERATE
C1:SRATE? C1:SAMPLERATE?
C1:SWWV C1:SWEEPWAVE Set or get sweep wave.
C1:SWWV? C1:SWEEPWAVE? Set or get sweep wave.
C1:SYNC
C1:SYNC?
C1:TRA C1:TRACE Enables or disables the display of a trace.
C1:TRA? C1:TRACE? Enables or disables the display of a trace.
C1:TRCP C1:TRIG_COUPLING Sets the coupling mode of the specified trigger source.
C1:TRCP? C1:TRIG_COUPLING? Sets the coupling mode of the specified trigger source.
C1:TRLV C1:TRIG_LEVEL Adjusts the trigger level of the specified trigger source
C1:TRLV? C1:TRIG_LEVEL? Adjusts the trigger level of the specified trigger source
C1:TRLV2 C1:TRIG_LEVEL2 Adjusts the second trigger level of the specified trigger source.
C1:TRLV2? C1:TRIG_LEVEL2? Adjusts the second trigger level of the specified trigger source.
C1:TRSL C1:TRIG_SLOPE Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
C1:TRSL? C1:TRIG_SLOPE? Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
C1:UNIT Sets the unit of specified trace
C1:UNIT? Sets the unit of specified trace
C1:VDIV C1:VOLT_DIV Sets the vertical sensitivity
C1:VDIV? C1:VOLT_DIV? Sets the vertical sensitivity
C1:VGAC
C1:VGAC?
C1:WF? C1:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
C1-C2:MEAD? The MEASURE_DELY command places the instrument in the continuous measurement mode and starts a type of delay measurement.
C1-C3:MEAD? The MEASURE_DELY command places the instrument in the continuous measurement mode and starts a type of delay measurement.
C1-C4:MEAD? The MEASURE_DELY command places the instrument in the continuous measurement mode and starts a type of delay measurement.
C2:ARWV C2:ARBWAVE Change arbitrary wave type.
C2:ARWV? C2:ARBWAVE? Change arbitrary wave type.
C2:ATTN C2:ATTENUATION Selects the vertical attenuation factor of the probe
C2:ATTN? C2:ATTENUATION? Selects the vertical attenuation factor of the probe
C2:BSWV C2:BASICWAVE Set or get basic wave parameters
C2:BSWV? C2:BASICWAVE? Set or get basic wave parameters
C2:BTWV C2:BURSTWAVE Set or get burst wave parameters
C2:BTWV? C2:BURSTWAVE? Set or get burst wave parameters
C2:BWL C2:BANDWIDTH_LIMIT Enables/disables the bandwidth-limiting lowpass filter
C2:BWL? C2:BANDWIDTH_LIMIT? Enables/disables the bandwidth-limiting lowpass filter
C2:CMBN C2:COMBINE
C2:CMBN? C2:COMBINE?
C2:CPL C2:COUPLING Selects the specified input channel‘s coupling mode.
C2:CPL? C2:COUPLING? Selects the specified input channel‘s coupling mode.
C2:CRST C2:CURSOR_SET Allows positioning of any one of eight cursors.
C2:CRST? C2:CURSOR_SET? Allows positioning of any one of eight cursors.
C2:CRVA? C2:CURSOR_VALUE? Returns trace values measured by specified cursors.
C2:DAC_ATTEN
C2:DAC_ATTEN_SET
C2:DACC
C2:DACC?
C2:HADJ C2:HORIZON_ADJ
C2:HADJ? C2:HORIZON_ADJ?
C2:HARM C2:HARMONIC
C2:HARM? C2:HARMONIC?
C2:INVS C2:INVERT_SET Invert the trace or the math waveform of specified source.
C2:INVS? C2:INVERT_SET? Invert the trace or the math waveform of specified source.
C2:INVT C2:INVERT
C2:INVT? C2:INVERT?
C2:MDWV C2:MODULATEWAVE Set or get modulate wave parameters.
C2:MDWV? C2:MODULATEWAVE? Set or get modulate wave parameters.
C2:OUTP C2:OUTPUT
C2:OUTP? C2:OUTPUT?
C2:PAVA? C2:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
C2:PRI C2:PRIORITY
C2:PRI? C2:PRIORITY?
C2:SKEW Sets the skew of specified trace
C2:SKEW? Sets the skew of specified trace
C2:SRATE C2:SAMPLERATE
C2:SRATE? C2:SAMPLERATE?
C2:SWWV C2:SWEEPWAVE Set or get sweep wave.
C2:SWWV? C2:SWEEPWAVE? Set or get sweep wave.
C2:SYNC
C2:SYNC?
C2:TRA C2:TRACE Enables or disables the display of a trace.
C2:TRA? C2:TRACE? Enables or disables the display of a trace.
C2:TRCP C2:TRIG_COUPLING Sets the coupling mode of the specified trigger source.
C2:TRCP? C2:TRIG_COUPLING? Sets the coupling mode of the specified trigger source.
C2:TRLV C2:TRIG_LEVEL Adjusts the trigger level of the specified trigger source
C2:TRLV? C2:TRIG_LEVEL? Adjusts the trigger level of the specified trigger source
C2:TRLV2 C2:TRIG_LEVEL2 Adjusts the second trigger level of the specified trigger source.
C2:TRLV2? C2:TRIG_LEVEL2? Adjusts the second trigger level of the specified trigger source.
C2:TRSL C2:TRIG_SLOPE Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
C2:TRSL? C2:TRIG_SLOPE? Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
C2:UNIT Sets the unit of specified trace
C2:UNIT? Sets the unit of specified trace
C2:VDIV C2:VOLT_DIV Sets the vertical sensitivity
C2:VDIV? C2:VOLT_DIV? Sets the vertical sensitivity
C2:VGAC
C2:VGAC?
C2:WF? C2:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
C2-C3:MEAD? The MEASURE_DELY command places the instrument in the continuous measurement mode and starts a type of delay measurement.
C2-C4:MEAD? The MEASURE_DELY command places the instrument in the continuous measurement mode and starts a type of delay measurement.
C3:ATTN C3:ATTENUATION Selects the vertical attenuation factor of the probe
C3:ATTN? C3:ATTENUATION? Selects the vertical attenuation factor of the probe
C3:BWL C3:BANDWIDTH_LIMIT Enables/disables the bandwidth-limiting lowpass filter
C3:BWL? C3:BANDWIDTH_LIMIT? Enables/disables the bandwidth-limiting lowpass filter
C3:CPL C3:COUPLING Selects the specified input channel‘s coupling mode.
C3:CPL? C3:COUPLING? Selects the specified input channel‘s coupling mode.
C3:CRST C3:CURSOR_SET Allows positioning of any one of eight cursors.
C3:CRST? C3:CURSOR_SET? Allows positioning of any one of eight cursors.
C3:CRVA? C3:CURSOR_VALUE? Returns trace values measured by specified cursors.
C3:DAC_ATTEN
C3:DAC_ATTEN
C3:DAC_ATTEN_SET
C3:DACC
C3:DACC?
C3:HADJ C3:HORIZON_ADJ
C3:HADJ? C3:HORIZON_ADJ?
C3:INVS C3:INVERT_SET Invert the trace or the math waveform of specified source.
C3:INVS? C3:INVERT_SET? Invert the trace or the math waveform of specified source.
C3:PAVA? C3:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
C3:PRI C3:PRIORITY
C3:PRI? C3:PRIORITY?
C3:SKEW Sets the skew of specified trace
C3:SKEW? Sets the skew of specified trace
C3:TRA C3:TRACE Enables or disables the display of a trace.
C3:TRA? C3:TRACE? Enables or disables the display of a trace.
C3:TRCP C3:TRIG_COUPLING Sets the coupling mode of the specified trigger source.
C3:TRCP? C3:TRIG_COUPLING? Sets the coupling mode of the specified trigger source.
C3:TRLV C3:TRIG_LEVEL Adjusts the trigger level of the specified trigger source
C3:TRLV? C3:TRIG_LEVEL? Adjusts the trigger level of the specified trigger source
C3:TRLV2 C3:TRIG_LEVEL2 Adjusts the second trigger level of the specified trigger source.
C3:TRLV2? C3:TRIG_LEVEL2? Adjusts the second trigger level of the specified trigger source.
C3:TRSL C3:TRIG_SLOPE Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
C3:TRSL? C3:TRIG_SLOPE? Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
C3:UNIT Sets the unit of specified trace
C3:UNIT? Sets the unit of specified trace
C3:VDIV C3:VOLT_DIV Sets the vertical sensitivity
C3:VDIV? C3:VOLT_DIV? Sets the vertical sensitivity
C3:VGAC
C3:VGAC?
C3:WF? C3:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
C3-C4:MEAD? The MEASURE_DELY command places the instrument in the continuous measurement mode and starts a type of delay measurement.
C4:ATTN C4:ATTENUATION Selects the vertical attenuation factor of the probe
C4:ATTN? C4:ATTENUATION? Selects the vertical attenuation factor of the probe
C4:BWL C4:BANDWIDTH_LIMIT Enables/disables the bandwidth-limiting lowpass filter
C4:BWL? C4:BANDWIDTH_LIMIT? Enables/disables the bandwidth-limiting lowpass filter
C4:CPL C4:COUPLING Selects the specified input channel‘s coupling mode.
C4:CPL? C4:COUPLING? Selects the specified input channel‘s coupling mode.
C4:CRST C4:CURSOR_SET Allows positioning of any one of eight cursors.
C4:CRST? C4:CURSOR_SET? Allows positioning of any one of eight cursors.
C4:CRVA? C4:CURSOR_VALUE? Returns trace values measured by specified cursors.
C4:DAC_ATTEN
C4:DAC_ATTEN
C4:DAC_ATTEN_SET
C4:DACC
C4:DACC?
C4:HADJ C4:HORIZON_ADJ
C4:HADJ? C4:HORIZON_ADJ?
C4:INVS C4:INVERT_SET Invert the trace or the math waveform of specified source.
C4:INVS? C4:INVERT_SET? Invert the trace or the math waveform of specified source.
C4:PAVA? C4:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
C4:PRI C4:PRIORITY
C4:PRI? C4:PRIORITY?
C4:SKEW Sets the skew of specified trace
C4:SKEW? Sets the skew of specified trace
C4:TRA C4:TRACE Enables or disables the display of a trace.
C4:TRA? C4:TRACE? Enables or disables the display of a trace.
C4:TRCP C4:TRIG_COUPLING Sets the coupling mode of the specified trigger source.
C4:TRCP? C4:TRIG_COUPLING? Sets the coupling mode of the specified trigger source.
C4:TRLV C4:TRIG_LEVEL Adjusts the trigger level of the specified trigger source
C4:TRLV? C4:TRIG_LEVEL? Adjusts the trigger level of the specified trigger source
C4:TRLV2 C4:TRIG_LEVEL2 Adjusts the second trigger level of the specified trigger source.
C4:TRLV2? C4:TRIG_LEVEL2? Adjusts the second trigger level of the specified trigger source.
C4:TRSL C4:TRIG_SLOPE Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
C4:TRSL? C4:TRIG_SLOPE? Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
C4:UNIT Sets the unit of specified trace
C4:UNIT? Sets the unit of specified trace
C4:VDIV C4:VOLT_DIV Sets the vertical sensitivity
C4:VDIV? C4:VOLT_DIV? Sets the vertical sensitivity
C4:VGAC
C4:VGAC?
C4:WF? C4:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
CFLASH CLEARFLASH
CHDR COMM_HEADER Controls formatting of query responses.
CHDR? COMM_HEADER? Controls formatting of query responses.
CHIP
CHIP?
CHMD CH_MODE
CHS?
CLEARCALI CLEARCALIBRATION
CLEARDELTA
CLK:SAVE
CLK:SET
CLSW COLOR_SWITCH Persist Colour Switch Command (state)
CLSW? COLOR_SWITCH? Persist Colour Switch Command (state)
CM:PAVA? CURR_MEASURE:PARAMETER_VALUE? Returns current parameter, mask test values
CMBN COMBINE
CMBN? COMBINE?
CMPA CURR_MEASURE_STAT
CMR? CMR? Reads and clears the Command error Register (CMR).
CONET COMM_NET Specifies network addresses of scope and printers.
CONET? COMM_NET? Specifies network addresses of scope and printers.
CRMS? CURSOR_MEASURE?
CRSC? CURSOR_MSOURCE?
CRTY? CURSOR_TYPE?
CSVS Saves specified waveform data of CSV format to USB device.
CSVS? Saves specified waveform data of CSV format to USB device.
CUS:H8 CUSTOM:H8
CUS:L8 CUSTOM:L8
CYMT? CYMOMETER? Returns the current cymometer value which displaying on the screen
D0:ACT D0:ACTIVATED
D0:PAVA? D0:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
D0:TRA D0:TRACE? Enables or disables the display of a trace.
D0:TRSL D0:TRIG_SLOPE Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D0:TRSL? D0:TRIG_SLOPE? Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D0:WF? D0:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
D1:ACT D1:ACTIVATED
D1:PAVA? D1:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
D1:TRA D1:TRACE? Enables or disables the display of a trace.
D1:TRSL D1:TRIG_SLOPE Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D1:TRSL? D1:TRIG_SLOPE? Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D1:WF? D1:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
D10:ACT D10:ACTIVATED
D10:PAVA? D10:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
D10:TRA D10:TRACE? Enables or disables the display of a trace.
D10:TRSL D10:TRIG_SLOPE Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D10:TRSL? D10:TRIG_SLOPE? Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D10:WF? D10:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
D11:ACT D11:ACTIVATED
D11:PAVA? D11:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
D11:TRA D11:TRACE? Enables or disables the display of a trace.
D11:TRSL D11:TRIG_SLOPE Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D11:TRSL? D11:TRIG_SLOPE? Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D11:WF? D11:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
D12:ACT D12:ACTIVATED
D12:PAVA? D12:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
D12:TRA D12:TRACE? Enables or disables the display of a trace.
D12:TRSL D12:TRIG_SLOPE Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D12:TRSL? D12:TRIG_SLOPE? Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D12:WF? D12:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
D13:ACT D13:ACTIVATED
D13:PAVA? D13:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
D13:TRA D13:TRACE? Enables or disables the display of a trace.
D13:TRSL D13:TRIG_SLOPE Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D13:TRSL? D13:TRIG_SLOPE? Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D13:WF? D13:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
D14:ACT D14:ACTIVATED
D14:PAVA? D14:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
D14:TRA D14:TRACE? Enables or disables the display of a trace.
D14:TRSL D14:TRIG_SLOPE Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D14:TRSL? D14:TRIG_SLOPE? Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D14:WF? D14:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
D15:ACT D15:ACTIVATED
D15:PAVA? D15:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
D15:TRA D15:TRACE? Enables or disables the display of a trace.
D15:TRSL D15:TRIG_SLOPE Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D15:TRSL? D15:TRIG_SLOPE? Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D15:WF? D15:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
D2:ACT D2:ACTIVATED
D2:PAVA? D2:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
D2:TRA D2:TRACE? Enables or disables the display of a trace.
D2:TRSL D2:TRIG_SLOPE Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D2:TRSL? D2:TRIG_SLOPE? Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D2:WF? D2:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
D3:ACT D3:ACTIVATED
D3:PAVA? D3:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
D3:TRA D3:TRACE? Enables or disables the display of a trace.
D3:TRSL D3:TRIG_SLOPE Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D3:TRSL? D3:TRIG_SLOPE? Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D3:WF? D3:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
D4:ACT D4:ACTIVATED
D4:PAVA? D4:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
D4:TRA D4:TRACE? Enables or disables the display of a trace.
D4:TRSL D4:TRIG_SLOPE Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D4:TRSL? D4:TRIG_SLOPE? Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D4:WF? D4:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
D5:ACT D5:ACTIVATED
D5:PAVA? D5:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
D5:TRA D5:TRACE? Enables or disables the display of a trace.
D5:TRSL D5:TRIG_SLOPE Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D5:TRSL? D5:TRIG_SLOPE? Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D5:WF? D5:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
D6:ACT D6:ACTIVATED
D6:PAVA? D6:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
D6:TRA D6:TRACE? Enables or disables the display of a trace.
D6:TRSL D6:TRIG_SLOPE Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D6:TRSL? D6:TRIG_SLOPE? Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D6:WF? D6:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
D7:ACT D7:ACTIVATED
D7:PAVA? D7:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
D7:TRA D7:TRACE? Enables or disables the display of a trace.
D7:TRSL D7:TRIG_SLOPE Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D7:TRSL? D7:TRIG_SLOPE? Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D7:WF? D7:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
D8:ACT D8:ACTIVATED
D8:PAVA? D8:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
D8:TRA D8:TRACE? Enables or disables the display of a trace.
D8:TRSL D8:TRIG_SLOPE Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D8:TRSL? D8:TRIG_SLOPE? Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D8:WF? D8:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
D9:ACT D9:ACTIVATED
D9:PAVA? D9:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
D9:TRA D9:TRACE? Enables or disables the display of a trace.
D9:TRSL D9:TRIG_SLOPE Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D9:TRSL? D9:TRIG_SLOPE? Sets the trigger slope of the specified trigger source
D9:WF? D9:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
DAC:SAVE
DAC_CODE
DAC_CODE?
DCDI? DeCo_Digital?
DCPA DeCo_Param
DCST DeCo_Status
DCST? DeCo_STatus
DCVL?
DDR Clears the Device Dependent Register (DDR).
DDR? Clears the Device Dependent Register (DDR).
DEF? DEFINE? Specifies math expression for function evaluation
DFKS Default Key
DI:ACQVD? DIGITAL:ACQ_VALID?
DI:ADCM DIGITAL:ADC_MODE
DI:BV? DIGITAL:BOM_VERSION?
DI:CALM DIGITAL:CALI_MODE
DI:CH CHANNEL_HEIGHT
DI:CMF? DIGITAL:CMD_FINISHED?
DI:DES DIGITAL:DESKEW
DI:DTAN DIGITAL:DATA_ANALY
DI:DTANF? DIGITAL:DATA_ANALY_FLAG?
DI:ECLAI DIGITAL:ECLAI_DATA
DI:EXTV DIGITAL:EXTV
DI:FR? DIGITAL:FREQ?
DI:FV? DIGITAL:FPGA_VERSION?
DI:H8 DIGITAL:HIGH8_SWITCH
DI:HISM? DIGITAL:HIST_MODE
DI:IDTANF DIGITAL:INT_DATA_ANALY_FLAG
DI:KC DIGITAL:KNOB_CONTROL
DI:L8 DIGITAL:LOW8_SWICHT
DI:LCALI? DIGITAL:LCALI_DATA?
DI:LTV? DIGITAL:LOCAL_VALID?
DI:MEAST? DIGITAL_MEASURE_STATUS
DI:MSTM DIGITAL:MASTER_MODE
DI:MTHRED DIGITAL:MTHRED
DI:MTHRED? DIGITAL:MTHRED?
DI:PRBW DIGITAL:PRO_BWL
DI:PV? DIGITAL:PCB_VERSION?
DI:RDDR? DIGITAL:RESET_DDR
DI:RDON DIGITAL:READ_DATA_ONCE
DI:SARA? DIGITAL:SAMPLE_RATE? The SARA? query returns the sample rate of the scope.
DI:SKEW DIGITAL:ADC_SKEW
DI:SLFM DIGITAL:SELF_MODE
DI:SRLN DIGITAL:SERIAL_NUMBER
DI:SRLN? DIGITAL:SERIAL_NUMBER?
DI:STOP DIGITAL:STOP
DI:STPA? DIGITAL:STOP_ACQ?
DI:STTA? DIGITAL:START_ACQ?
DI:SV? DIGITAL:SOFTWARE_VERSION?
DI:SW DIGITAL:SWITCH The SWITCH command is used to set the state of digital.
DI:SW? DIGITAL:SWITCH? The SWITCH command is used to set the state of digital.
DI:SWID? DIGITAL_SWITCH_INDEX?
DI:TDIVF DIGITAL:TDIV_FLAG
DI:THAD DIGITAL:THREADJ
DI:THAD? DIGITAL:THREADJ?
DI:TRCP DIGITAL:TRIG_COUPL
DI:UPIN DIGITAL:UPDATE_PREVIEW_INFO
DI:UTC DIGITAL:USBTMC_CONNECTED
DI:WF? DIGITAL:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
DI:WSR? DIGITAL:WAIT_STOP?
DMESg?
DSCL DISPLAY_CLEAR
DTJN DOT_JOIN Controls the interpolation lines between data points.
DTJN? DOT_JOIN? Controls the interpolation lines between data points.
DUTYCALI DUTYCALIBRATION
EMOD EDUMODE
EMOD? EDUMODE?
EQN
EX:TRCP EX:TRIG_COUPLING
EX:TRCP? EX:TRIG_COUPLING?
EX:TRLV EX:TRIG_LEVEL
EX:TRLV? EX:TRIG_LEVEL?
EX:TRLV2 EX:TRIG_LEVEL2
EX:TRLV2? EX:TRIG_LEVEL2?
EX:TRSL EX:TRIG_SLOPE
EX:TRSL? EX:TRIG_SLOPE?
EX5:TRCP EX5:TRIG_COUPLING
EX5:TRCP? EX5:TRIG_COUPLING?
EX5:TRLV EX5:TRIG_LEVEL
EX5:TRLV? EX5:TRIG_LEVEL?
EX5:TRLV2 EX5:TRIG_LEVEL2
EX5:TRLV2? EX5:TRIG_LEVEL2?
EX5:TRSL EX5:TRIG_SLOPE
EX5:TRSL? EX5:TRIG_SLOPE?
EXDL EXT_TRIGDELAY
EXDL:SAVE
EXLV EXT_TRIGLEVEL
EXR Reads, clears the Execution error Register (EXR).
EXR? Reads, clears the Execution error Register (EXR).
EXT:SAVE
EXTCT:SAVE
FCNT FREQCOUNTER Sets or gets frequency counter parameters.
FCNT? FREQCOUNTER? Sets or gets frequency counter parameters.
FCNTCALI FREQCOUNTERCALIBRATION
FDBKAJT FEEDBACKAJUST
FFTA FFT_AUTOSET
FFTC FFT_CENTER The FFT_CENTER command sets the center frequency when FFT (Fast Fourier Transform) is selected.
FFTC? FFT_CENTER?
FFTD FFT_DISPLAY
FFTD? FFT_DISPLAY?
FFTF FFT_FULLSCREEN Enables or disables to display the FFT trace full screen.
FFTF? FFT_FULLSCREEN? Enables or disables to display the FFT trace full screen.
FFTP FFT_POS The FFT_POSITION command sets the vertical offset of FFT waveform
FFTP? FFT_POS? The FFT_POSITION command sets the vertical offset of FFT waveform
FFTS FFT_SCALE Selects the vertical scale of FFT trace.
FFTS? FFT_SCALE? Selects the vertical scale of FFT trace.
FFTT FFT_TDIV The FFT_TDIV? query returns current horizontal scale of FFT waveform.
FFTT? FFT_TDIV? The FFT_TDIV? query returns current horizontal scale of FFT waveform.
FFTU FFT_UNIT The FFT_UNIT command sets the vertical scale type of FFT
FFTU? FFT_UNIT? The FFT_UNIT command sets the vertical scale type of FFT
FFTW FFT_WINDOW Selects the window of FFT.
FFTW? FFT_WINDOW? Selects the window of FFT.
FPAR? FRAME_PARAM? Get frame param.
FRAM? FRAME_SET? Get frame param.
FRSPAJT FREQRESPAJUST
FTIM? FRAME_TIME?
GRDS GRID_DISPLAY Selects the type of grid
GRDS? GRID_DISPLAY? Selects the type of grid
H8:CUS H8:CUSTOM The CUSTOM command sets the threshold value by customer for the specified group of channels
H8:CUS? H8:CUSTOM? The CUSTOM command sets the threshold value by customer for the specified group of channels
H8:TSM H8:THRESHOLD_MODE The THRESHOLD_MODE command sets the threshold type for the specified group of channels.
H8:TSM? H8:THRESHOLD_MODE? The THRESHOLD_MODE command sets the threshold type for the specified group of channels.
HARM?
HMAG HOR_MAGNIFY Horizontally expands the selected expansion trace.
HMAG? HOR_MAGNIFY? Horizontally expands the selected expansion trace.
HPOS HOR_POSITION Horizontally positions intensified zone‘s center.
HPOS? HOR_POSITION? Horizontally positions intensified zone‘s center.
HSIN? HISTORY_INTERVAL?
HSLST? HISTORY_LIST? The HISTORY_LIST command is used to set the state of history list.
HSMD? HISTORY_MODE? The HISTORY_MODE command is used to set the state of history mode.
HSR_BOTEST?
HSR_DAC:SET
HSR_EXTCT:SAVE HSR_EXTCENTER:SAVE
HSR_EXTDT:SAVE HSR_EXTDELAY:SAVE
HSST? HISTORY_STATE?
HSTA HOR_STATE
HSTA? HOR_STATE?
IDN-SGLT-AWG?
IDN-SGLT-PRI?
INNEr:PRODuction:MODE
INR Reads, clears INternal state change Register (INR).
INR? Reads, clears INternal state change Register (INR).
INTS INTENSITY Sets the grid or trace/text intensity level.
INTS? INTENSITY? Sets the grid or trace/text intensity level.
INVT INVERT
INVT? INVERT?
K7DUMP                        Related to the program memory for the main FPGA, unsure how its used.
K7DUMP?
L8:CUS L8:CUSTOM
L8:CUS? L8:CUSTOM?
L8:TSM L8:THRESHOLD_MODE
L8:TSM? L8:THRESHOLD_MODE?
LAGG LANGUAGE
LAGG? LANGUAGE?
LANG LANGUAGE
LANG? LANGUAGE?
LCISL LICENCE_INSTALL
LCISL? LICENCE_INSTALL?
LED?
LICENSE
LICENSE?
LICENSE_ID?
LICENSE_KEY
LICENSE_PR?
LINE:TRCP LINE:TRIG_COUPLING
LINE:TRCP? LINE:TRIG_COUPLING?
LINE:TRSL LINE:TRIG_SLOPE
LINE:TRSL? LINE:TRIG_SLOPE?
LOAD:CALI:FILE?
MATH:CRVA? MATH:CURSOR_VALUE? Returns trace values measured by specified cursors.
MATH:INVS MATH:INVERT_SET Invert the trace or the math waveform of specified source.
MATH:INVS? MATH:INVERT_SET? Invert the trace or the math waveform of specified source.
MATH:PAVA? MATH:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
MATH:WF? MATH:WAVEFORM? Gets the waveform from the instrument.
MCBD? MACHINE_BAND?
MD5_PR?
MD5_SRLN?
MDID MATH_DIFF_DX
MDWV? MODULATEWAVE?
MEASTAT MEAASURE_STATUS
MENU Enables or disables to display the current menu
MENU? Enables or disables to display the current menu
MMEMORY:UPLoad?
MODE?
MSIZ MEMORY_SIZE Returns the maximal memory size
MSIZ? MEMORY_SIZE? Returns the maximal memory size
MSSTAT MEASURE_SOURCE_STAT
MTEN MATH_ENABLE
MTEN? MATH_ENABLE?
MTVD MATH_VERT_DIV Controls the vertical sensitivity of math waveform of specified source.
MTVD? MATH_VERT_DIV? Controls the vertical sensitivity of math waveform of specified source.
MTVP MATH_VERT_POS Controls the vertical position of math waveform of specified source.
MTVP? MATH_VERT_POS Controls the vertical position of math waveform of specified source.
NBFM NUMBER_FORMAT
NBFM? NUMBER_FORMAT?
NET_BRIDGE_ADDR?
OUTP OUTPUT
OUTP? OUTPUT?
PACL PARAMETER_CLEAR Clears all current parameters in Custom, Pass/Fail.
PACP PARACOPY
PACU PARAMETER_CUSTOM Controls parameters with customizable qualifiers.
PASTAT Parameter Statistics switch
PASTAT? Parameter Statistics switch
PECL PERSIST_CLEAR
PESU PERSIST_SETUP Selects display persistence duration.
PESU? PERSIST_SETUP? Selects display persistence duration.
PFBF PF_BUFFER The PF_BUFFER command sets the output mode when the test fails.
PFBF? PF_BUFFER? The PF_BUFFER command sets the output mode when the test fails.
PFCM PF_CREATEM Creates the mask of the pass/fail.
PFDD? PF_DATADIS? Return the number of the pass/fail monitor which can be displayed on the screen
PFDS PF_DISPLAY Enables or disables to display the test and the message options of pass/fail
PFDS? PF_DISPLAY? Enables or disables to display the test and the message options of pass/fail
PFEN PF_ENABLE The PF_ENABLE command enables or disables the Pass/Fail test features.
PFEN? PF_ENABLE? The PF_ENABLE command enables or disables the Pass/Fail test features.
PFFS PF_FAIL_STOP The PF_FAIL_STOP command sets the switch of the ―stop on fail‖ function
PFFS? PF_FAIL_STOP? The PF_FAIL_STOP command sets the switch of the ―stop on fail‖ function
PFOP PF_OPERATION The PF_OPERATION command controls to run or stop Pass/Fail test
PFOP? PF_OPERATION? The PF_OPERATION command controls to run or stop Pass/Fail test
PFSC PF_SOURCE The PF_SOURCE command sets measurement sources for Pass/Fail test.
PFSC? PF_SOURCE? The PF_SOURCE command sets measurement sources for Pass/Fail test.
PFST PS_SET Sets the X mask and the Y mask
PFST? PS_SET? Sets the X mask and the Y mask
PNSU? PANEL_SETUP? Complements the *SAV/*RST commands.
PRBD? PRODUCT_BAND?
PRINTCALI PRINTCALIBRATION
PRO_SRLN?
PROD PRODUCT
PROD? PRODUCT?
RCPN RECALL_PANEL Recalls a front-panel setup from mass storage.
REBOOT
REFA:PAVA? REFA:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
REFA:REFSC? REFA:REF_SCALE?
REFB:PAVA? REFB:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
REFC:PAVA? REFC:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
REFCL REF_CLOSE The REF_CLOSE command closes the Reference function.
REFD:PAVA? REFD:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
REFDS REF_DISPLAY The REF_DISPLAY command enables or disables the current reference channel shown on the screen.
REFDS? REF_DISPLAY? The REF_DISPLAY command enables or disables the current reference channel shown on the screen.
REFLA REF_LOCATION The REF_LOCATION command selects the current reference channel.
REFLA? REF_LOCATION? The REF_LOCATION command selects the current reference channel.
REFPO REF_POSITION The REF_POSITION command sets the vertical offset of the current reference channel.
REFPO? REF_POSITION? The REF_POSITION command sets the vertical offset of the current reference channel.
REFSA REF_SAVE The REF_SAVE command saves the waveform (screen range) of the specified source as the reference waveform
REFSC REF_SCALE The REF_SCALE command sets the vertical scale of the current reference channel
REFSR REF_SOURCE The REF_SOURCE command sets the reference waveform source.
REFSR? REF_SOURCE? The REF_SOURCE command sets the reference waveform source.
RESETADC
RFLASH READFLASH
RFLASHBLK READFLASHBLOCK
ROLL
ROSC ROSCILLATOR Sets or gets the clock source.
ROSC? ROSCILLATOR? Sets or gets the clock source.
RPSC REGISTER_PRODUCT_SCPI_CMD
RPSC? REGISTER_PRODUCT_SCPI_CMD?
SANU? Sample_Number? Return the number of sampled points available from last acquisition and the trigger position
SARA? Sample_Rate? Return the sample rate of the scope
SAST SAMPLE_STATUS Return the acquisition status of the scope
SAST? SAMPLE_STATUS? Return the acquisition status of the scope
SAVECALI
SCDP Causes a screen dump to controller.
SCFG SYSTEMCONFIG Set or get power on initializing parameter way.
SCFG? SYSTEMCONFIG? Set or get power on initializing parameter way.
SCOPEID? SCOPE_ID?
SCSV SCREEN_SAVE Controls the automatic screen saver.
SCSV? SCREEN_SAVE? Controls the automatic screen saver.
SELFCALI SELFCALIBRATION
SET50
SGLT-TEST-VAST-DATA
SGLT-TEST-VAST-DATA?
SGLT-UPGRADE
SHELLCMD
SRLN
SRLN?
SRLN2MAC
SRLN-AWG
STAT:OPER:COND? STATus:OPERation:CONDition?
STAT:OPER:ENAB STATus:OPERation:ENABle
STAT:OPER[:EVEN]? STATus:OPERation[:EVENt]?
STAT:PRES STATus:PRESet
STAT:QUES:COND? STATus:QUEStionable:CONDition?
STAT:QUES:ENAB STATus:QUEStionable:ENABle
STAT:QUES[:EVEN]? STATus:QUEStionable[:EVENt]?
STL? STORELIST?
STPN STORE_PANEL Stores front-panel setup to mass storage.
SAVEAJUSTDATA
SVNALL?
SWWV? SWEEPWAVE?
SXSA SinXx_Sample Sets the type of the interpolation
SXSA? SinXx_Sample? Sets the type of the interpolation
SY_FP
SYNC
SYNC?
SYST:COMM:LAN:GAT SYSTem:COMMunicate:LAN:GATeway Set the gateway for the signal generator in the network. The gateway will be fetched automatically if the IP assignment is set to DHCP.
SYST:COMM:LAN:GAT? SYSTem:COMMunicate:LAN:GATeway? Set the gateway for the signal generator in the network. The gateway will be fetched automatically if the IP assignment is set to DHCP.
SYST:COMM:LAN:IPAD SYSTem:COMMunicate:LAN:IPADdress Set a host name for the signal generator in network
SYST:COMM:LAN:IPAD? SYSTem:COMMunicate:LAN:IPADdress? Set a host name for the signal generator in network
SYST:COMM:LAN:MAC? SYSTem:COMMunicate:LAN:MAC?
SYST:COMM:LAN:SMAS SYSTem:COMMunicate:LAN:SMASk Set the subnet mask according to the PC network Settings. The subnet mask will be set automatically if the IP assignment is set to DHCP.
SYST:COMM:LAN:SMAS? SYSTem:COMMunicate:LAN:SMASk? Set the subnet mask according to the PC network Settings. The subnet mask will be set automatically if the IP assignment is set to DHCP.
SYST:COMM:LAN:TYPE SYSTem:COMMunicate:LAN:TYPE Toggles the IP assignment Setting between static (manual) and DHCP (dynamic assignment) mode.
SYST:COMM:LAN:TYPE? SYSTem:COMMunicate:LAN:TYPE? Toggles the IP assignment Setting between static (manual) and DHCP (dynamic assignment) mode.
SYST:COUN? SYSTem:COUNt? System power on count
SYST:DATE SYSTem:DATE
SYST:DATE? SYSTem:DATE?
SYST:ERR? SYSTtem:ERRor?
SYST:FDEF SYSTem:FDEFault
SYST:PON:TYPE SYSTem:PON:TYPE Uses command to set signal generator to power on in default, last. Get power on type.
SYST:PON:TYPE? SYSTem:PON:TYPE? Uses command to set signal generator to power on in default, last. Get power on type.
SYST:PRES SYSTem:PRESet Presets all parameters.
SYST:PRES:TYPE SYSTem:PRESet:TYPE Set preset file when preset type is user
SYST:PRES:TYPE? SYSTem:PRESet:TYPE? Set preset file when preset type is user
SYST:TIME SYSTem:TIME
SYST:TIME? SYSTem:TIME?
SYST:VERS? SYSTem:VERSion?
SYSTem:FileSystem:Type? SYSTem:FileSystem:Type?
TDIV TIME_DIV Modifies the time base setting.
TDIV? TIME_DIV? Modifies the time base setting.
TMPL TEMPLATE Produces a complete waveform template copy.
TMPL? TEMPLATE? Produces a complete waveform template copy.
TRCAN TRIG_CAN
TRCAN? TRIG_CAN?
TRCP TRIG_COUPLING
TRCP? TRIG_COUPLING?
TRDL TRig_DeLay Sets the time at which the trigger is to occur.
TRDL? TRig_DeLay? Sets the time at which the trigger is to occur.
TRDP? TRIG_DROP?
TREG? ACQ1
TREG? ACQ2
TREG? MAP
TRFSM TRIG_FSM
TRFSM? TRIG_FSM?
TRIIC TRIG_IIC
TRIIC? TRIG_IIC?
TRLIN TRIG_LIN
TRLIN? TRIG_LIN?
TRLV TRIG_LEVEL
TRLV? TRIG_LEVEL?
TRMD TRIG_MODE The trigger mode.
TRMD? TRIG_MODE? The trigger mode.
TRNR TRIG_NOISEREJ
TRNR? TRIG_NOISEREJ?
TRPA TRIG_PATTERN Sets the condition of the pattern trigger
TRPA? TRIG_PATTERN? Sets the condition of the pattern trigger
TRPH TRIG_PATTERN_HOLDOFF
TRPH? TRIG_PATTERN_HOLDOFF?
TRPH?
TRPT TRIG_PATTERN_LIMIT
TRPT? TRIG_PATTERN_LIMIT?
TRSE TRIG_SELECT Selects the condition that will trigger acquisition.
TRSE? TRIG_SELECT? Selects the condition that will trigger acquisition.
TRSPI TRIG_SPI
TRSPI? TRIG_SPI?
TRSR TRIG_SOURCE Trigger Source
TRSR? TRIG_SOURCE? Trigger Source
TRST TRIG_STATUS
TRST? TRIG_STATUS?
TRTY TRIG_TYPE
TRUART TRIG_UART
TRUART? TRIG_UART?
TRWI TRIG_WINDOW Return relative height of the trigger window
TRWI? TRIG_WINDOW? Return relative height of the trigger window
USBDATA?
VECD VECTORS_DISPLAY
VECD? VECTORS_DISPLAY?
VKEY VIRTUALKEY Set the virtual key.
VOLTPRT? Sets or gets state of over-voltage protection
WEB:PSW
WEB:PSW?
WF WAVEFORM
WFDA? WF_DATA? saves waveform data to user folder on device
WFLASHBLK WRITEFLASHBLOCK
WFSU WAVEFORM_SETUP Specifies amount of waveform data to go to controller
WFSU? WAVEFORM_SETUP? Specifies amount of waveform data to go to controller
WRFLASHBLK WRITEREADFLASHBLOCK
WVDA WAVEDATA Get the wave data of store .
WVPR WAVEPARAMETER The WAVE_PARA? query returns the location, name, frequency, amplitude, and offset of four arbitrary waveforms.
WVPR? WAVEPARAMETER? The WAVE_PARA? query returns the location, name, frequency, amplitude, and offset of four arbitrary waveforms.
XYDS XY_DiSplay Enables or disables to display the XY format
XYDS? XY_DiSplay? Enables or disables to display the XY format
Z1:PAVA? Z1:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
Z2:PAVA? Z2:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
Z3:PAVA? Z3:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values
Z4:PAVA? Z4:PARAMETER_VALUE Returns current parameter, mask test values



Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 09, 2018, 01:16:21 am

And sadly no sign of bode plot commands for me.

Just 3 that pop out for me:
ROSC   ROSCILLATOR   Sets or gets the clock source.
WF   WAVEFORM
SWWV?   SWEEPWAVE?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 09, 2018, 01:46:37 am
ROSC is the signal generators clock source, either the internal oscillator, or I would imagine aux port on the SAG1021,

Waveform is the command to export a raw export of a given channel, I am working with EEZstudio to make it directly export to CSV, in reality there is no reason why the webserver could not do this either.

SWWV is one of the operating mode of the signal generator option, in reality the devices bode plot works off BSWV (BasicWave), sets the frequency, measures then sets the next.


What i was after was a command that would put it in a bode plot mode with the parameters exposed so I could set the center, span, etc via scpi,
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 09, 2018, 03:36:58 am
ROSC is the signal generators clock source, either the internal oscillator, or I would imagine aux port on the SAG1021,

Waveform is the command to export a raw export of a given channel, I am working with EEZstudio to make it directly export to CSV, in reality there is no reason why the webserver could not do this either.

SWWV is one of the operating mode of the signal generator option, in reality the devices bode plot works off BSWV (BasicWave), sets the frequency, measures then sets the next.
OK.


Quote
What i was after was a command that would put it in a bode plot mode with the parameters exposed so I could set the center, span, etc via scpi,
Ah, gotcha.
So if we look at the SCPI command set from the US website, it's from 2017 and just before SDS1004X-E models were released, version RC01-E02A
https://www.siglentamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2017/10/Programming-Guide-1.pdf (https://www.siglentamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2017/10/Programming-Guide-1.pdf)

Yet on the Shenzhen site, a later version RC01020-E01C
http://old.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/Program_Material/Programming_Guide_forSDS1000X-E.pdf (http://old.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/Program_Material/Programming_Guide_forSDS1000X-E.pdf)
Overlook the file name: WaveAce Remote Control  ;)

Neither of which have what you're looking for.  :(  ::)

They must be still building it.  :-//
I'll ask.


EDIT
Just found another:
http://old.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/Program_Material/Programming%20Guide.pdf (http://old.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/Program_Material/Programming%20Guide.pdf)
Still without what you seek.

I'll unbox one and see if there's any different versions on the CD......none at all !  :o
500+ MB free and no Programming guide ?  |O

Siglent, please add the SCPI command programming guide onto the CD.....at least the latest version available at the time of printing......with an embedded link to a online source of any later versions.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 09, 2018, 03:54:02 am
While your at it, a workaround I was trying also fell short, The "VKEY" (VIRTUALKEY) command does not work, With this I could have essentially typed in the keys to accomplish it in a roundabout way.

Thanks as always tautech.

Page187-188
https://www.circuitspecialists.com/content/238573/sdg810_manual_+_programming_guide_+_quickstart_guide.pdf (https://www.circuitspecialists.com/content/238573/sdg810_manual_+_programming_guide_+_quickstart_guide.pdf)

Code: [Select]
28 KB_FUNC1
23 KB_FUNC2
18 KB_FUNC3
13 KB_FUNC4
8 KB_FUNC5
3 KB_FUNC6
48 KB_NUMBER_0
49 KB_NUMBER_1
50 KB_NUMBER_2
51 KB_NUMBER_3
52 KB_NUMBER_4
53 KB_NUMBER_5
54 KB_NUMBER_6
55 KB_NUMBER_7
56 KB_NUMBER_8
57 KB_NUMBER_9
46 KB_POINT
43 KB_NEGATIVE
15 KB_MOD
16 KB_SWEEP
17 KB_BURST
5 KB_PARAMETER
11 KB_UTILITY
70 KB_STORE_RECALL
4 KB_WAVES
72 KB_CHANNEL
177 KB_KNOB_LEFT
175 KB_KNOB_RIGHT
176 KB_KNOB_DOWN
44 KB_LEFT
40 KB_RIGHT
153 KB_OUTPUT1
152 KB_OUTPUT2
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 09, 2018, 04:06:38 am
While your at it, a workaround I was trying also fell short, The "VKEY" (VIRTUALKEY) command does not work, With this I could have essentially typed in the keys to accomplish it in a roundabout way.
Can I ask you to document it and drop it into this thread please:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-sdg1000-and-sdg800-thread/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-sdg1000-and-sdg800-thread/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 09, 2018, 04:40:18 am
I don't actually own a sdg810, it was just the only manual I could find with an example string for the command.

If you still wish me to write it up there, then I shall.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 09, 2018, 04:51:03 am
I don't actually own a sdg810, it was just the only manual I could find with an example string for the command.

If you still wish me to write it up there, then I shall.
OK, never mind then as it's best to have bonafide reports from those that actually have such equipment just in case tech support needs further info from the owner.

Back on Bode plot, is any of the code here of use to you ?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-and-sds1204x-e-bode-plot-with-non-siglent-awg/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-and-sds1204x-e-bode-plot-with-non-siglent-awg/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 09, 2018, 06:39:54 am
What that code does is appear on the network as a siglent signal generator, the scope then sends it commands as it would to an actual device, the PC then converts these commands and spits it back out to the other brand device in the correct format for that device, over USB or ethernet.

The scope pretty much sends commands like "Generate a 10Hz Wave", measure for 1 acquisition period, "Generate a 12Hz Wave, measure... etc,
In the video this is the "C1:BSWV FREQ,10" line where you see the number counting up. I "think" the device then grabs the same value as "C1:PAVA? PKPK" to plot amplitude, and C1-C2:MEAD? to plot phase. 

I've been playing with the SAG1021 to better learn its limits, And at this point I am starting to think up how I might script it, but would still be nice to have commands for it
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 09, 2018, 06:50:22 am
What that code does is appear on the network as a siglent signal generator, the scope then sends it commands as it would to an actual device, the PC then converts these commands and spits it back out to the other brand device in the correct format for that device, over USB or ethernet.

The scope pretty much sends commands like "Generate a 10Hz Wave", measure for 1 acquisition period, "Generate a 12Hz Wave, measure... etc,
In the video this is the "C1:BSWV FREQ,10" line where you see the number counting up. I "think" the device then grabs the same value as "C1:PAVA? PKPK" to plot amplitude, and C1-C2:MEAD? to plot phase. 

I've been playing with the SAG1021 to better learn its limits, And at this point I am starting to think up how I might script it, but would still be nice to have commands for it
I know.  ;)
Emails sent and questions asked. Gimme a day or two.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 10, 2018, 11:33:12 am
What i was after was a command that would put it in a bode plot mode with the parameters exposed so I could set the center, span, etc via scpi,
Officially; Bode plot SCPI command set: totally unsupported at this time.

Rerouter would like it, please raise hands who else.
Title: Webserver doesn´t start
Post by: Calvin on December 10, 2018, 04:42:29 pm
Hi,

I bought my SDS1204X-E a few months ago .... and so far I´m absolutely happy with it.
Since I just use it when I use it there was not much wishing for remote control ... and the first tests via USB and easyscope were not that promising either.
There was the wish though to have a larger display and yesterday I discovered the Webserver-video of Jason on Youtube.
Today I rigged up a Switch (dlinkgo GO-SW-8G by D-Link) and connected my computer and the Oscilloscope to it and to the router.
I then followed the instructions in the video and could connect to the webserver.
I get the same home display and can send the *IDN? command and get back the same response as in the video.
When I the click on instrument Control the black background appears immidiately and the address http://192.168.251.1xx/Instrument/novnc/vnc_auto.php. (http://192.168.251.1xx/Instrument/novnc/vnc_auto.php.)
Right after that a red line appears below the address field and a note saying WebSock error: [object Event] .... nothing else.
Does anybody have an idea what micht be wrong and how to get the webserver going?

Thanks in advance
Calvin


Title: Re: Webserver doesn´t start
Post by: katagia on December 10, 2018, 05:43:45 pm
When I the click on instrument Control the black background appears immidiately and the address http://192.168.251.1xx/Instrument/novnc/vnc_auto.php. (http://192.168.251.1xx/Instrument/novnc/vnc_auto.php.)
Right after that a red line appears below the address field and a note saying WebSock error: [object Event] .... nothing
I had the same issue when I did a firmware upgrade but missed the software upgrade.

After doing the software update everything is fine.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calvin on December 10, 2018, 06:15:56 pm
Hi,

my software revision is indeed the 7.0.6.1.26 .... so I downloaded the OS zip-file.
Now I just need to get me a 8G or 32G USB stick.

Thanks alot and I´ll report if that solved my prob.
Calvin

Title: Re: Webserver doesn´t start
Post by: tautech on December 10, 2018, 06:17:27 pm
When I the click on instrument Control the black background appears immidiately and the address http://192.168.251.1xx/Instrument/novnc/vnc_auto.php. (http://192.168.251.1xx/Instrument/novnc/vnc_auto.php.)
Right after that a red line appears below the address field and a note saying WebSock error: [object Event] .... nothing
I had the same issue when I did a firmware upgrade but missed the software upgrade.

After doing the software update everything is fine.
Correct, there were issues with the early webserver but later with the new OS update and V7.6.1.25R2 firmware, the webserver was changed to a better format and connection problems fixed.
So ensure the OS update is not overlooked.....all you need is to put the OS files in the root of a USB stick and allow the X-E to find them at boot.
Then update to the latest firmware too, version 26.
https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds1000x-e-series (https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds1000x-e-series)

Hi,

my software revision is indeed the 7.0.6.1.26 .... so I downloaded the OS zip-file.
Now I just need to get me a 8G or 32G USB stick.

Thanks alot and I´ll report if that solved my prob.
Calvin
:-+
Yep, that should fix any issues.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: jorgecam on December 11, 2018, 05:13:13 am
Hello, I have purchased a SDS1204X-E 4CH oscilloscope and I have the following problem:

I place a 36 MHz 3 cycles burst in channel 1 and everything works ok until I enable channel 2. In that moment the trigger becomes erratic, randomly jumping between the first and the second edge of the signal.

The problem coincides with the fact that the oscilloscope changes the sampling rate from 1 Gs/s to 500 Ms/s when I enable channel 2.

The same happens when I have only channel 1 enabled (1Gs/s) but the signal has more than 72 MHz.

You can see the problem here: https://youtu.be/stSIxn6YvJU

I updated firmware from SDS1004X-E_6.1.25R2_EN to SDS1004X-E_6.1.26_EN and the problem persits.

best regards,
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 11, 2018, 07:40:37 am
Hello, I have purchased a SDS1204X-E 4CH oscilloscope and I have the following problem:

I place a 36 MHz 3 cycles burst in channel 1 and everything works ok until I enable channel 2. In that moment the trigger becomes erratic, randomly jumping between the first and the second edge of the signal.

The problem coincides with the fact that the oscilloscope changes the sampling rate from 1 Gs/s to 500 Ms/s when I enable channel 2.

The same happens when I have only channel 1 enabled (1Gs/s) but the signal has more than 72 MHz.


I updated firmware from SDS1004X-E_6.1.25R2_EN to SDS1004X-E_6.1.26_EN and the problem persits.

best regards,
With difficult to trigger non-repetitive signals Trigger Holdoff can make all the difference and allow for 'rock solid' triggering.
Holdoff is default to Close (80ns) so lengthen it to just greater than the length of the burst and if needed you can extend it to a max of 1.5s.
Tell us if that works.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 11, 2018, 08:12:17 am
 
Hello, I have purchased a SDS1204X-E 4CH oscilloscope and I have the following problem:

I place a 36 MHz 3 cycles burst in channel 1 and everything works ok until I enable channel 2. In that moment the trigger becomes erratic, randomly jumping between the first and the second edge of the signal.

The problem coincides with the fact that the oscilloscope changes the sampling rate from 1 Gs/s to 500 Ms/s when I enable channel 2.

The same happens when I have only channel 1 enabled (1Gs/s) but the signal has more than 72 MHz.

You can see the problem here: https://youtu.be/stSIxn6YvJU

I updated firmware from SDS1004X-E_6.1.25R2_EN to SDS1004X-E_6.1.26_EN and the problem persits.

best regards,

Nice finding. It looks like bug in trigger engine programming. And finding bugs are important. Without it, they can not repair.

I have repeated this same situation and it really looks like bug.
(and it happen also with other signal and other settings)

This bug can not jump over using normal trigger settings for burst type signals like example most easy (or is it better say, traditional when there was not better) trigger holdoff or more advanced example interval trigger for burst signals or example AM mod. 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 11, 2018, 12:30:39 pm
Tautech, even if they only fix the virtual key commands I would be happy, as I could still access it.
My best guess based on where "VirtualKey" is positioned in the program, is that the command is being forwarded to the AWG device even through it should be handled by the scope.
(Still very much a beginner at assembler, much less arm assembler)

Other typo's to add to the list

C4:TRACE has a question mark for its command
Digital_Measure_Status is missing a question mark
HISTORY_LIST is missing a Question mark for its query,
DI:LOW8_SWICHT bit of a spelling Error
Channel 5 apparently exists for a coupling option  :P
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calvin on December 11, 2018, 05:42:50 pm
Hi,

my webserver problem is solved.
Unzipped the OS files onto a new 32GB Verbatim USB stick, dated the scope and voila.
The scope returned Rev. 7.1.6.1.26 and connected immidiately.
Response is not as quick as in Jason's video ... app. half a second or more delay between scope and monitor ... but at least working seemingly without flaws.

Thanks again for Your help
Calvin
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: jorgecam on December 11, 2018, 11:41:05 pm
Hello, I have purchased a SDS1204X-E 4CH oscilloscope and I have the following problem:

I place a 36 MHz 3 cycles burst in channel 1 and everything works ok until I enable channel 2. In that moment the trigger becomes erratic, randomly jumping between the first and the second edge of the signal.

The problem coincides with the fact that the oscilloscope changes the sampling rate from 1 Gs/s to 500 Ms/s when I enable channel 2.

The same happens when I have only channel 1 enabled (1Gs/s) but the signal has more than 72 MHz.


I updated firmware from SDS1004X-E_6.1.25R2_EN to SDS1004X-E_6.1.26_EN and the problem persits.

best regards,
With difficult to trigger non-repetitive signals Trigger Holdoff can make all the difference and allow for 'rock solid' triggering.
Holdoff is default to Close (80ns) so lengthen it to just greater than the length of the burst and if needed you can extend it to a max of 1.5s.
Tell us if that works.

Hi, thanks for the comment. I tried increasing the Trigger Holdoff but it didnt work.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: daveyk on December 12, 2018, 05:01:25 pm
I'm finding quite a few weirdness "features" of this scope and beginning to wish I wouldn't have bought it.

When you save a setup to an internal memory location (i.e, #1) and then recall it, the v/Div does not recall properly if you were using fine scale, and also if the Trigger level was set for -150 volts (using a 100:1 probe) the trigger level recalls as -250volts when the setup file is recalled.  That is very frustrating, but for I use it for, my control software easily compensates for that.

There are a number of programmically control commands that do not work or are not documented correctly in the programmers guide. 

I've emailed Jason Chonko yesterday and today for technical support and have not heard back yet.  Like Agilent, he is good at answering one, or two, questions maximum per email.  If there are more questions in the same email, they are over-looked.  Anyway, he is usually pretty good at response.  I can only assume, he is not in.

I don't know if it would do you any good, but please email jason.chonko@siglent.com  at Siglent.  If this is a bug, it needs forwarded to their software development team.  I often use trigger 1,2 or 3 sine-waves too, but typically not above 20MHz.  When I get a chance, I will try to duplicate your issue with my SDS1204X-E.

Dave

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 12, 2018, 09:51:17 pm
Davyk what commands are not working. And for saved setups is it only those parameters?

At this point in time if you have a desired scpi command i can likely tell you how it works. I am slowly putting togrther documentation for every command I have been able to find for these scopes.

My previos posts have had every valid command. And yes some of the stuff in the documentation is not actually able to be used. But instead is present under a different name.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calvin on December 13, 2018, 05:51:01 am
Hi,

while trying out the webserver control I got an issue.
When doing history at first the monitor picture updated as its supposed to do, but when I switched to full screen it stopped.
From then on even with new starts of the webserver and the scope the picture didn´t update history frames at all.
All else -the normal scopeing via webserver- worked ok.
The scope´s own controls worked fine also .... so its just the history mode which seems to have issues.

regards
Calvin
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 13, 2018, 07:46:03 am
Hi,

while trying out the webserver control I got an issue.
When doing history at first the monitor picture updated as its supposed to do, but when I switched to full screen it stopped.
From then on even with new starts of the webserver and the scope the picture didn´t update history frames at all.
All else -the normal scopeing via webserver- worked ok.
The scope´s own controls worked fine also .... so its just the history mode which seems to have issues.

regards
Calvin

FW version?

Then, please can you explain exactly including every single step by step so that it can reproduce situation exactly 1:1. Yes I know, perfect documenting is boring...but...
Starting from turn on scope and every single step until problem exist. All. 
Here, for this kind of things telepathy does not work very reliably.

I just play some time with normal and history mode, zoomed and not zoomed, all controlling using scope using web and also web server on but controlling using scope front panel. I have not met any single problem at all.
PC is running "best possible windows" (win 7-64 pro) and browsers tested: firefox 64.0. and Chrome 71.0.3578.98.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calvin on December 13, 2018, 09:09:25 am
Hi,

it happened at my company´s.
I´ll check first if I experience the same behaviour at home to see if its a network related problem.

regards
Calvin
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on December 14, 2018, 04:35:15 am
So I have been having trouble connecting my scope to my wifi network.  I have correctly entered in all software keys so that the wifi option is enabled.  I have also updated to the most recent firmware version 7.1.6.1.26.  I am using the siglent official TP-Link TL-WN725N wifi adapter and the device recognizes this adapter when it is plugged in (the little green LED also blinks).  My DHCP setting is turned on.  Evidence for all of this can be seen in the image below:

(https://i.imgur.com/zJXB0ru.png)

When I enter in the wifi network name and password (which I have verified are both correct many times), it says "connecting" and then it will fail to connect with the message "WLAN connection failed".  Figuring that maybe it was a bad wifi adapter, I plugged it into my desktop and successfully connected to that same WIFI network without problems.  Evidence for this can be seen in the image below:

(https://i.imgur.com/ZZOjGAK.png)

I have no idea what to do next.  I have tried resetting my router, changing the name of the wifi network, changing the wifi network password, reflashing the firmware on the scope, and a number of other things.  What should my next step be?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 14, 2018, 07:37:54 am
So I have been having trouble connecting my scope to my wifi network.  I have correctly entered in all software keys so that the wifi option is enabled.  I have also updated to the most recent firmware version 7.1.6.1.26.  I am using the siglent official TP-Link TL-WN725N wifi adapter and the device recognizes this adapter when it is plugged in (the little green LED also blinks).
That all sounds OK.

Quote
My DHCP setting is turned on.

This is where I had trouble as DHCP ON doesn't always negotiate a valid IP so I found it best to leave DHCP OFF and to enter the IP, Subnet and Gateway manually and Save them.

Quote
When I enter in the wifi network name and password (which I have verified are both correct many times), it says "connecting" and then it will fail to connect with the message "WLAN connection failed".  Figuring that maybe it was a bad wifi adapter, I plugged it into my desktop and successfully connected to that same WIFI network without problems.
Yes, initially when the IP configuration is incorrect, it appears to get a connection and then it's quickly lost.

Quote
I have no idea what to do next.  I have tried resetting my router, changing the name of the wifi network, changing the wifi network password, reflashing the firmware on the scope, and a number of other things.  What should my next step be?
Ensure your SSID and PSK are correct first.
Ensure you have all your LAN IP details correct and insert them into the scope manually, it's quite quick to do using the multipurpose control with a twist and press to enter and lock in the correct digits. It auto jumps to the next field for the next entry.
Be sure to enter them correctly and just as your DOS box 'ipconfig' (or whatever your PC OS uses) 'find IP' command returns for them.
So say your gateway is 192.168.1.1.......enter this in the Gateway field and for the scope IP set a higher #, say 192.168.1.75
Subnet is normally but not always 255.255.255.0
Save.
Did you hear me say Save !

Now settings will be all visible in LAN settings......leave them as they are and DHCP OFF.

Tips
Do initial tests close to your WiFi router....I've had some WiFi range issues and you'll drive yourself around the bend trying to figure out what the hell is going on so by working close in initially you'll remove any possible range issues from the connection hassles/equation until you get a rock solid WiFi connection.
Write your settings down.
Consider re-siting your WiFi router if range is an issue.
Further info in Reply #1043.

Let us know how you get on.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on December 14, 2018, 04:15:59 pm
I have performed all of the aforementioned tasks suggested by tautech while sitting right next to my router and still no luck.

Is it possible that the problem is that my SSID has spaces in it?

EDIT: changing SSID to have no spaces, special characters, and less than 20 characters did not fix the problem.


EDIT #2: I have finally connected via WiFi. The SSID cannot have any spaces or special characters, in my case.  The PSK also cannot have any spaces or special characters, and must be less than 20 characters long. Also the IP address must be set manually.

That is a pretty ridiculous set of demands for this device, and hamstrings it's utility in a commercial/research environment where the user does not necessarily have such tight control over the SSID or PSK that they use to connect to WIFI. This definitely needs to be addressed in an update.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: plurn on December 14, 2018, 04:53:14 pm
I have seen it mentioned a number of times that the latest software/firmware is 7.1.6.1.26.

I purchased a SDS1104X-E in November in Australia and it has the following:

software version: 8.1.6.1.26
fpga version: 2018-07-26
hardware version: 01-03

I have not done any updates. Not sure what the "8." signifies in the software version instead of "7.". Perhaps it is related to the hardware version rather than the operating system or software?

Anyway just posting this as additional information.

(EDIT: corrected software version numbers)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 14, 2018, 05:50:15 pm

EDIT #2: I have finally connected via WiFi. The SSID cannot have any spaces or special characters, in my case.  The PSK also cannot have any spaces or special characters, and must be less than 20 characters long. Also the IP address must be set manually.

That is a pretty ridiculous set of demands for this device, and hamstrings it's utility in a commercial/research environment where the user does not necessarily have such tight control over the SSID or PSK that they use to connect to WIFI. This definitely needs to be addressed in an update.
:phew: Good, you got there.

Other comments;
Our WiFi router has been changed by our new provider and it's also administered by them ....so without access to it I don't know exactly how it's been configured so my offered advice has been developed so to connect without fail.


Should others have trouble please report them here so we can build a picture of problems that need addressing in future firmware.
TIA.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: photomankc on December 14, 2018, 08:30:28 pm
I have performed all of the aforementioned tasks suggested by tautech while sitting right next to my router and still no luck.

Is it possible that the problem is that my SSID has spaces in it?

EDIT: changing SSID to have no spaces, special characters, and less than 20 characters did not fix the problem.


EDIT #2: I have finally connected via WiFi. The SSID cannot have any spaces or special characters, in my case.  The PSK also cannot have any spaces or special characters, and must be less than 20 characters long. Also the IP address must be set manually.

That is a pretty ridiculous set of demands for this device, and hamstrings it's utility in a commercial/research environment where the user does not necessarily have such tight control over the SSID or PSK that they use to connect to WIFI. This definitely needs to be addressed in an update.

I'd agree, for being something you have to pay for as an add-on that is a pretty repugnant set of requirements even for a home LAN.  Changing the SSID and PSK for everything else I have working would not even be an option I would entertain in my low-stress home environment.  Certainly no corporate network is going to do that.  Our security team will not entertain a wireless PSK of less than 24 characters.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on December 14, 2018, 10:48:02 pm
I purchased a SDS1104X-E in November in Australia and it has the following:

software version: 8.0.6.1.26
fpga version: 2018-07-26
hardware version: 01-03

Interesting...  ::)

Can you send me a copy of the .app file?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: plurn on December 15, 2018, 03:03:01 am
I purchased a SDS1104X-E in November in Australia and it has the following:

software version: 8.0.6.1.26
fpga version: 2018-07-26
hardware version: 01-03

Interesting...  ::)

Can you send me a copy of the .app file?

I would but - I have not put on the cracked operating system as I did not want to risk downgrading it to 7.1. I was going to wait until siglent releases another newer operating system. So I don't think I have a way to access the .app file. I am assuming I need telnet access to the device to access the .app file.

Oh and sorry - I typed the wrong numbers in my earlier post. Should have had "1" as the second digits instead of "0" like this:

I have seen it mentioned a number of times that the latest software/firmware is 7.1.6.1.26.

I purchased a SDS1104X-E in November in Australia and it has the following:

software version: 8.1.6.1.26
...

I have now corrected this in the earlier post. Sorry for any confusion there.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 15, 2018, 03:40:14 am
plurn, able to stick a clean usb drive in the device and run this SCPI command,

SHELLCMD cp /usr/bin/siglent/sds1000b.app /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/sds1000b.app

If you dont have a prefered client, I recommend EEZstudio
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: plurn on December 15, 2018, 05:20:51 am
Thanks Rerouter - I didn't know you could do system commands like that (hmm ... wondering if I can set a new root passwd that way). I just used the SCPI facility of the built in website.

It produced a 13277980 byte file. I'll send it to tv84.

md5sum in case someone wants to compare it to a 7.1.6.1.26 one. Might be the same:

$ md5sum /Volumes/UNTITLED/sds1000b.app
c246ac4ab74c56b9bc111f4e0cb2e535  /Volumes/UNTITLED/sds1000b.app

$ strings  /Volumes/UNTITLED/sds1000b.app |grep -B 4 -A 3 6.1.26
product_type SDS1002X_E
product_type SDS1004X_E
product_type SLA1016
1.3.15
6.1.26
test
1.1.1
8.1.11

notes: this is from SDS1104X-E software version: 8.1.6.1.26
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 15, 2018, 06:23:27 am
any chance you could pm me a copy aswell?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: plurn on December 15, 2018, 06:57:47 am
any chance you could pm me a copy aswell?

Sure. Done.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on December 15, 2018, 08:41:38 am
any chance you could pm me a copy aswell?

Sure. Done.

Attached is the parsing of the official SDS1004X_E_6.1.26.ADS.

As you can see the APP of yours scope has the same CRC32 so no big change there.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 15, 2018, 11:24:53 am
Happy days, I present the magic of learning to use wireshark,

There was a command I wasn't sure was valid $$SY_FP well that command is the one easyscope uses to control all the buttons, yep no need for VKEY anymore, everything can be scripted for these things now :D

Code: [Select]
Command syntax:
$$SY_FP <key>, <value>
For buttons, any integer is a press,
For knobs, a value of -1 is decrement, 0 is the button, 1 is increment, higher numbers correspond to moving that amount, e.g. 200 would be 200 clicks

keys:
0 - Menu Clear Button
1 - Function 1 (left most key on bottom of screen)
2 - Function 2
3 - Function 3
4 - Function 4
5 - Function 5
6 - Function 6
7 - Timebase (Decrease -1/ 0 Button / Increase 1)
10 - Timebase Offset (Decrease -1/ 0 Button / Increase 1)
11 - Autosetup Button
12 - Run / Stop Button
13 - Default Button
15 - Intensity (Decrease -1/ 0 Button / Increase 1)
16 - Trigger Level (Decrease -1/ 0 Button / Increase 1)
17 - Auto Trigger Button
18 - Trigger Button
19 - Normal Trigger Button
20 - Single Trigger Button
22 - Cursors Button
23 - Display / Persist button
24 - Utility Button
25 - Print Button
26 - Measure Button
27 - Aqcuire Button
28 - Save/Recall Button
29 - Decode Button
30 - Digital Button
31 - Math Button
32 - Reference Button
35 - Channel 1 VDIV (Decrease -1/ 0 Button / Increase 1)
36 - Channel 2 VDIV (Decrease -1/ 0 Button / Increase 1)
37 - Channel 3 VDIV (Decrease -1/ 0 Button / Increase 1)
38 - Channel 4 VDIV (Decrease -1/ 0 Button / Increase 1)
39 - Channel 1 Button
40 - Channel 2 Button
41 - Channel 3 Button
42 - Channel 4 Button
43 - Channel 1 Offset (Decrease -1/ 0 Button / Increase 1)
44 - Channel 2 Offset (Decrease -1/ 0 Button / Increase 1)
45 - Channel 3 Offset (Decrease -1/ 0 Button / Increase 1)
46 - Channel 4 Offset (Decrease -1/ 0 Button / Increase 1)
47 - Clear Sweeps Button
48 - History Button
49 - Roll Button
50 - Search Button
51 - Navigate Button
52 - Left Navigation Button
53 - Stop Navigate Button
54 - Right Navigate Button

14 - ??? no idea, if you figure it out, I'll fill it in.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: jazper on December 19, 2018, 07:23:50 am
I have been trying for a bit to get wifi working on my network with the siglent, it just doesn't seem to want to connect for some reason - right IP settings, right network, right PSK..

Could it be non alphanumerics in the PSK?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 19, 2018, 08:07:25 am
I have been trying for a bit to get wifi working on my network with the siglent, it just doesn't seem to want to connect for some reason - right IP settings, right network, right PSK..

Could it be non alphanumerics in the PSK?
Most likely.

See reply #1121
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2039518/#msg2039518 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2039518/#msg2039518)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: jazper on December 19, 2018, 08:16:55 am
I have been trying for a bit to get wifi working on my network with the siglent, it just doesn't seem to want to connect for some reason - right IP settings, right network, right PSK..

Could it be non alphanumerics in the PSK?
Most likely.

See reply #1121
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2039518/#msg2039518 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2039518/#msg2039518)

Nope - tried it with just alphanumerics, no joy. I use google wifi at home. Tried DHCP and manually setting IP, Tried different PSKs (with and without "special" characters. Looked into the web interface for stuff I may have missed - nope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 19, 2018, 08:34:18 am
I have been trying for a bit to get wifi working on my network with the siglent, it just doesn't seem to want to connect for some reason - right IP settings, right network, right PSK..

Could it be non alphanumerics in the PSK?
Most likely.

See reply #1121
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2039518/#msg2039518 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2039518/#msg2039518)

Nope - tried it with just alphanumerics, no joy. I use google wifi at home. Tried DHCP and manually setting IP, Tried different PSKs (with and without "special" characters. Looked into the web interface for stuff I may have missed - nope.
OK, have you read my guide in Reply #1120 ?

You have WiFi selected but the WiFi indicator is grayed out ?

You change the IP settings in LAN and leave DHCP OFF then enter your WiFi settings into the WiFi sub menu.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: jazper on December 19, 2018, 08:56:37 am
I have been trying for a bit to get wifi working on my network with the siglent, it just doesn't seem to want to connect for some reason - right IP settings, right network, right PSK..

Could it be non alphanumerics in the PSK?
Most likely.

See reply #1121
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2039518/#msg2039518 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2039518/#msg2039518)

Nope - tried it with just alphanumerics, no joy. I use google wifi at home. Tried DHCP and manually setting IP, Tried different PSKs (with and without "special" characters. Looked into the web interface for stuff I may have missed - nope.
OK, have you read my guide in Reply #1120 ?

You have WiFi selected but the WiFi indicator is grayed out ?

You change the IP settings in LAN and leave DHCP OFF then enter your WiFi settings into the WiFi sub menu.

Yep - done all of that - Wifi indicator greyed out, "not connected"
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 19, 2018, 09:00:57 am
I have been trying for a bit to get wifi working on my network with the siglent, it just doesn't seem to want to connect for some reason - right IP settings, right network, right PSK..

Could it be non alphanumerics in the PSK?
Most likely.

See reply #1121
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2039518/#msg2039518 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2039518/#msg2039518)

Nope - tried it with just alphanumerics, no joy. I use google wifi at home. Tried DHCP and manually setting IP, Tried different PSKs (with and without "special" characters. Looked into the web interface for stuff I may have missed - nope.
OK, have you read my guide in Reply #1120 ?

You have WiFi selected but the WiFi indicator is grayed out ?

You change the IP settings in LAN and leave DHCP OFF then enter your WiFi settings into the WiFi sub menu.

Yep - done all of that - Wifi indicator greyed out, "not connected"
And you're close to your WiFi source and pressed 'Connect' ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: jazper on December 19, 2018, 09:02:15 am
less than 5m from a wifi point, and hit connect.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 19, 2018, 09:06:29 am
less than 5m from a wifi point, and hit connect.
OK, what have we missed ?  :-//

Are you on the latest firmware ****26 ?
What WiFi dongle do you have ?
Is WiFi licensing permanent or on trial uses ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: jazper on December 19, 2018, 09:11:56 am
On the latest firmware
Wifi dongle is the TP-Link TL-WN725N
Licensing is permanent

SDS 1104x-e will pick up the SSID via manual search in the wifi menu
Tried Static and DHCP
Positive the password is correct
Tried password without alphanumerics

SSID has spaces in it? could be the issue?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 19, 2018, 09:14:54 am
On the latest firmware
Wifi dongle is the TP-Link TL-WN725N
Licensing is permanent

SDS 1104x-e will pick up the SSID via manual search in the wifi menu
Tried Static and DHCP
Positive the password is correct
Tried password without alphanumerics

SSID has spaces in it? could be the issue?
Yep, mentioned in reply #1121.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 19, 2018, 10:17:56 am
Still going through all the menu Items, there is a lot of them....  but luckily it provides better documentation than I could hope for, In a menu if you press an hold the option button, it will show the tooltip for that setting.

for the Cursor_set? command, e.g. C1:CRST? if you put a non matching parameter after the request it will return "TREF" with the value for "VDIV" rather than the normal error, this seems like the decision tree gets jumped somehow.

Also a small typo in the web server, "steup" located in file "\usr\bin\siglent\config\www\Instrument\novnc\vnc_auto.php"
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 19, 2018, 10:47:18 am
Also documented the LED? command, should help when navigating by the SY_FP command,

When queried "LED?" the scope returns a Hex Bitmask for all leds currently lit on the scope, (and apparently on the options too?)

Code: [Select]
Bit - LED lit
1 - AWG Output
2 -?
3 -?
4 -?
5 -?
6 - Stop Red Led
7 - Run Green Led
8 - Single Trigger Button
9 - Normal Trigger Button
10 - Auto Trigger Button
11 - History Button
12 - Decode Button
13 - Search Button
14 - Roll Button
15 - References Button
16 - Math Button
17 - Measure Button
18 - Cursors Button
19 - Digital Button?
20 - Channel 4 Button
21 - Channel 3 Button
22 - Channel 2 Button
23 - Channel 1 Button
24 - Intensity Adjust LED
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 19, 2018, 11:19:44 am
When you save a setup to an internal memory location (i.e, #1) and then recall it, the v/Div does not recall properly if you were using fine scale, and also if the Trigger level was set for -150 volts (using a 100:1 probe) the trigger level recalls as -250volts when the setup file is recalled.  That is very frustrating, but for I use it for, my control software easily compensates for that.
Dave

Been looking into this more, would you be able to save a setup to USB, both the internal and external are just a simple XML file. so worst case you can likely correct the value, load the setup from usb, then resave it to the internal settings for now, or just edit it over telnet, "\usr\bin\siglent\usr\sds00001.xml"

edit: this is just to pin down an error with saving or an error with loading
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: jazper on December 19, 2018, 11:29:37 am
Wifi needs are ridiculous, I'll buy a cable and wait for an update
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 22, 2018, 12:42:22 am
Looking into the 8.1.6.1.26 version (still the same as 7.1.6.1.26) It appears there are some new SCPI commands for setting the Trigger Gate Function, It appears the mac address can be changed without altering the serial number, and there is a new PASS command which I suspect may be wifi password, but as I dont have that option cannot confirm. As its not the WEB:PSW,

Most of the previously found typos still exist in it,

Any news on when the next version is likely to roll out Tautech?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 22, 2018, 01:14:09 am
Any news on when the next version is likely to roll out Tautech?
None at all sorry and I’m in Perth for a couple of weeks.
Getting a couple of the new 2kX-E’s in next order so will be interesting to see any difference in firmware and UI in this new series.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 22, 2018, 01:24:00 am
There are enough references in the system application and menu trees to stuff only mentioned for the 2000 series that I suspect its using the same program just with the relevant menus turned on.

Some of that stuff looked interesting, but hard to pin down from what was there,

Also If I'm not mistaken bode plot mode seems to temporarily put external signal generators into full bandwidth option mode,
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 22, 2018, 01:56:46 am
Also If I'm not mistaken bode plot mode seems to temporarily put external signal generators into full bandwidth option mode,
Ohhh, that is worth investigating !  :-/O  :-DMM

Easy to do too, just set the sweep frequency higher than the AWG ‘labeled’ max frequency.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 22, 2018, 02:37:19 am
Another interesting command for today, DACC / DACC? this sets the channel offset DAC directly, so if you ever need that little bit more than +- 2 / 20 / 200V offset it actually extends a few volts positive and negative.

This is an uncalibrated value, so for now until I work out the corrections from the PRinTCALIbration its not going to be dead on,

on my particular scope C1:DACC?
1500 corresponds to 20V,
9800 to 0V offset
18200 to -20V,

Now the number is actually a 16 bit unsigned integer, and during testing, it does actually alter the slope of the AC waveform up to a point, but it seems symmetrical, which allows for a DC offset of about +-23V for the 1V - 200mV per div range.

or about +-2.4V for the 100mV-500uV ranges.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ewaller on December 27, 2018, 09:33:19 pm
I only have Windows available at the moment, so I can't try formatting through linux. Sorry!  It is an 8GB drive formatted as Fat32.

I've tried inserting the usb stick while the scope was powered off, and also while it was on and then rebooting it.  Same result either way for the OS not installing.  The firmware installed fine through the normal Utility menu on the scope.

OK. Linux formatting would be a "remote" possibility.

My last suggestion is:

Format the stick with FAT. Ensure that the scope recognizes the stick and save some files (captures) from the scope to the stick.

Then, power off the scope, remove the stick and copy the 4 files to the stick as the manual says (don't remove the captures).

Ensure that you are doing clean ejections from Win.

Insert in the scope and power on.

Also, check with some hash prog that the files you have in the stick have the correct hash (crc32 is enough).

I may have found a clue as to why some USB configurations work and why others do not.  It turns out, it is possible to format an entire USB drive as a file system without requiring that it be partitioned -- much like floppy disks of old.  It is also possible to partition a USB thumb drive like a hard disk such that there are multiple partitions, each of which has an independent file system.  In Linux, a USB drive will show up as a device node in /dev.  On this scope, the first thumbdrive shows up as /dev/sda.  If the thumbdrive is partitioned and has one partition on it, there will be an additional device node called /dev/sda1.  The sda refers to the entire drive, the sda1 refers to the first partition.  (If there are more partitions, they also create device nodes sda2, sda3 ...)  A second thumb drive will enumerate at /dev/sdb.

What I found is that the scope GUI does not care whether the drive is a stand alone file system or whether it is is partitioned.  BUT... The preboot environment (I think it is U-Boot, but I cannot prove it) does not seem to deal well with thumbdrives that are not partitioned and ignores updates on drives that do not have a partition table.

So, if you have a thumbdrive that does not seem to work for upgrading the OS to 7.1 (or for installing the OS with a known password),  reformat it in Linux starting with fdisk or gdisk to create a partition table and then create a single volume (partition) that uses the remainder of the drive.  Then, format that volume (partition) using mkfs.vfat.  Mount that volume and unzip your four files to it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 27, 2018, 11:19:35 pm
USB drives are only troublesome when they are 16G size or not FAT formatted.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tinhead on December 28, 2018, 12:08:47 am
USB drives are only troublesome when they are 16G size or not FAT formatted.

that's true, however for some reason Win 10 10.0.17763.195 is giving some extra problems when using UI to format.
What always work:

diskpart
list disk
select disk x
clean
format fs=fat32 quick
exit

and sometimes add drive letter in device manager (after re-attaching usb drive).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 28, 2018, 01:03:22 am
Few more Typo's in the SCPI stuff, most of its easy to patch out, but when its missing the string... well it gets interesting to make it all fit.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rickwookie on December 28, 2018, 02:00:35 pm


Quote from: tv84 on December 15, 2018, 09:48:02 am (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=94245.msg2040520#msg2040520)


>Quote from: plurn on December 15, 2018, 03:53:14 am (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=94245.msg2039635#msg2039635)
I purchased a SDS1104X-E in November in Australia and it has the following:

software version: 8.0.6.1.26
fpga version: 2018-07-26
hardware version: 01-03



Interesting...  ::)

Can you send me a copy of the .app file?



Finally got my SDS 1104X-E today in the UK that I ordered back in November.

It's got the same version, except the hardware version is listed as 01-04. I wonder what that means.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tinhead on December 28, 2018, 03:06:22 pm
It's got the same version, except the hardware version is listed as 01-04. I wonder what that means.

that's easy, just open it, shot some pictures and we will find out the difference ^^.
FPGA and App versions are "same", however if might be difference there as well, if you could make copy of them we can easily check it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: jazper on December 28, 2018, 09:11:51 pm
as an aside, I ordered and received mine in the last month - it has hardware version 1-03
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on December 28, 2018, 09:38:53 pm
Just a small update, a few more new commands for .26

C:TRAV  C:TRAce_Visible     Used to show or hide traces
MEGS - MEasure_Gate_Switch turns on or off the measurement gating function
MEGA - MEasure_GateA Gate A position
MEGB - MEasure_GateB Gate B position
PNGDP                          Dumps a png formatted screenshot
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: plurn on December 29, 2018, 10:37:12 pm


Quote from: tv84 on December 15, 2018, 09:48:02 am (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=94245.msg2040520#msg2040520)


>Quote from: plurn on December 15, 2018, 03:53:14 am (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=94245.msg2039635#msg2039635)
I purchased a SDS1104X-E in November in Australia and it has the following:

software version: 8.0.6.1.26
fpga version: 2018-07-26
hardware version: 01-03



Interesting...  ::)

Can you send me a copy of the .app file?



Finally got my SDS 1104X-E today in the UK that I ordered back in November.

It's got the same version, except the hardware version is listed as 01-04. I wonder what that means.


I think it might be the Xilinx Zynq Platform hardware revision? I have "hardware version: 01-03" and Xilinx Zynq Platform 0003:

/ # cat /proc/cpuinfo
processor       : 0
model name      : ARMv7 Processor rev 0 (v7l)
BogoMIPS        : 1332.01
Features        : half thumb fastmult vfp edsp neon vfpv3 tls vfpd32
CPU implementer : 0x41
CPU architecture: 7
CPU variant     : 0x3
CPU part        : 0xc09
CPU revision    : 0

processor       : 1
model name      : ARMv7 Processor rev 0 (v7l)
BogoMIPS        : 1332.01
Features        : half thumb fastmult vfp edsp neon vfpv3 tls vfpd32
CPU implementer : 0x41
CPU architecture: 7
CPU variant     : 0x3
CPU part        : 0xc09
CPU revision    : 0

Hardware        : Xilinx Zynq Platform
Revision        : 0003
Serial          : 0000000000000000
/ #


As for what having revision 0003 compared to some other revision means - I don't know.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ewaller on December 29, 2018, 10:53:03 pm
A hands up please of those using the Siglent WiFi adapter TL‐WN725N.
Some reports on your experiences and range with this USB adapter please.

Also please, reports from those using the genuine TP Link TL-WN725N dongle.
Using a genuine TL-WN725N works perfectly --

Code: [Select]
/ # for i in $(seq 1 10); do cat /proc/net/wireless   ; done
Inter-| sta-|   Quality        |   Discarded packets               | Missed | WE
 face | tus | link level noise |  nwid  crypt   frag  retry   misc | beacon | 22
 wlan0: 0000    0.   84.    0.       0      0      0      0      0        0
Inter-| sta-|   Quality        |   Discarded packets               | Missed | WE
 face | tus | link level noise |  nwid  crypt   frag  retry   misc | beacon | 22
 wlan0: 0000    0.   84.    0.       0      0      0      0      0        0
Inter-| sta-|   Quality        |   Discarded packets               | Missed | WE
 face | tus | link level noise |  nwid  crypt   frag  retry   misc | beacon | 22
 wlan0: 0000    0.   84.    0.       0      0      0      0      0        0
Inter-| sta-|   Quality        |   Discarded packets               | Missed | WE
 face | tus | link level noise |  nwid  crypt   frag  retry   misc | beacon | 22
 wlan0: 0000    0.   84.    0.       0      0      0      0      0        0
Inter-| sta-|   Quality        |   Discarded packets               | Missed | WE
 face | tus | link level noise |  nwid  crypt   frag  retry   misc | beacon | 22
 wlan0: 0000    0.   84.    0.       0      0      0      0      0        0
Inter-| sta-|   Quality        |   Discarded packets               | Missed | WE
 face | tus | link level noise |  nwid  crypt   frag  retry   misc | beacon | 22
 wlan0: 0000    0.   84.    0.       0      0      0      0      0        0
Inter-| sta-|   Quality        |   Discarded packets               | Missed | WE
 face | tus | link level noise |  nwid  crypt   frag  retry   misc | beacon | 22
 wlan0: 0000    0.   84.    0.       0      0      0      0      0        0
Inter-| sta-|   Quality        |   Discarded packets               | Missed | WE
 face | tus | link level noise |  nwid  crypt   frag  retry   misc | beacon | 22
 wlan0: 0000    0.   84.    0.       0      0      0      0      0        0
Inter-| sta-|   Quality        |   Discarded packets               | Missed | WE
 face | tus | link level noise |  nwid  crypt   frag  retry   misc | beacon | 22
 wlan0: 0000    0.   84.    0.       0      0      0      0      0        0
Inter-| sta-|   Quality        |   Discarded packets               | Missed | WE
 face | tus | link level noise |  nwid  crypt   frag  retry   misc | beacon | 22
 wlan0: 0000    0.   84.    0.       0      0      0      0      0        0
/ # ifconfig
lo        Link encap:Local Loopback 
          inet addr:127.0.0.1  Mask:255.0.0.0
          UP LOOPBACK RUNNING  MTU:65536  Metric:1
          RX packets:99 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
          TX packets:99 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
          collisions:0 txqueuelen:0
          RX bytes:7108 (6.9 KiB)  TX bytes:7108 (6.9 KiB)

wlan0     Link encap:Ethernet  HWaddr 50:3E:AA:83:BF:7A 
          inet addr:192.168.1.201  Bcast:192.168.1.255  Mask:255.255.255.0
          UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST  MTU:1500  Metric:1
          RX packets:86778 errors:0 dropped:1468 overruns:0 frame:0
          TX packets:316584 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
          collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000
          RX bytes:9375097 (8.9 MiB)  TX bytes:462780487 (441.3 MiB)

/ #
Single family dwelling, about 10m from router through 1 open door, a intervening room, and one interior wall.  Adapter is in the rear USB connector of the scope and is oriented with the body of the scope between the router and the adapter.

 Had serious issues with 7.0 Version of the OS.  Also, for some reason I had issues when running app version 6.1.25R2.

Now I am running 7.1.6.26 (stock firmware) and it is rock solid.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ewaller on December 29, 2018, 11:00:01 pm
I think it might be the Xilinx Zynq Platform hardware revision? I have "hardware version: 01-03" and Xilinx Zynq Platform 0003:

/ # cat /proc/cpuinfo
processor       : 0
model name      : ARMv7 Processor rev 0 (v7l)
BogoMIPS        : 1332.01
Features        : half thumb fastmult vfp edsp neon vfpv3 tls vfpd32
CPU implementer : 0x41
CPU architecture: 7
CPU variant     : 0x3
CPU part        : 0xc09
CPU revision    : 0

processor       : 1
model name      : ARMv7 Processor rev 0 (v7l)
BogoMIPS        : 1332.01
Features        : half thumb fastmult vfp edsp neon vfpv3 tls vfpd32
CPU implementer : 0x41
CPU architecture: 7
CPU variant     : 0x3
CPU part        : 0xc09
CPU revision    : 0

Hardware        : Xilinx Zynq Platform
Revision        : 0003
Serial          : 0000000000000000
/ #


As for what having revision 0003 compared to some other revision means - I don't know.
My proc/cpuinfo is identical to yours.  Purchased in the United States at the end of November
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rickwookie on December 29, 2018, 11:13:37 pm


Quote from: tv84 on December 15, 2018, 09:48:02 am (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=94245.msg2040520#msg2040520)


>Quote from: plurn on December 15, 2018, 03:53:14 am (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=94245.msg2039635#msg2039635)
I purchased a SDS1104X-E in November in Australia and it has the following:

software version: 8.0.6.1.26
fpga version: 2018-07-26
hardware version: 01-03



Interesting...  ::)

Can you send me a copy of the .app file?



Finally got my SDS 1104X-E today in the UK that I ordered back in November.

It's got the same version, except the hardware version is listed as 01-04. I wonder what that means.


I think it might be the Xilinx Zynq Platform hardware revision? I have "hardware version: 01-03" and Xilinx Zynq Platform 0003:

/ # cat /proc/cpuinfo
processor       : 0
model name      : ARMv7 Processor rev 0 (v7l)
BogoMIPS        : 1332.01
Features        : half thumb fastmult vfp edsp neon vfpv3 tls vfpd32
CPU implementer : 0x41
CPU architecture: 7
CPU variant     : 0x3
CPU part        : 0xc09
CPU revision    : 0

processor       : 1
model name      : ARMv7 Processor rev 0 (v7l)
BogoMIPS        : 1332.01
Features        : half thumb fastmult vfp edsp neon vfpv3 tls vfpd32
CPU implementer : 0x41
CPU architecture: 7
CPU variant     : 0x3
CPU part        : 0xc09
CPU revision    : 0

Hardware        : Xilinx Zynq Platform
Revision        : 0003
Serial          : 0000000000000000
/ #


As for what having revision 0003 compared to some other revision means - I don't know.

Nah. I have the same revision on hardware 01-04. I ran this SCPI command:
Code: [Select]
SHELLCMD cat /proc/cpuinfo > /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/cpuinfo.txtand in cpuinfo.txt I have:
Code: [Select]
processor : 0
model name : ARMv7 Processor rev 0 (v7l)
BogoMIPS : 1332.01
Features : half thumb fastmult vfp edsp neon vfpv3 tls vfpd32
CPU implementer : 0x41
CPU architecture: 7
CPU variant : 0x3
CPU part : 0xc09
CPU revision : 0

processor : 1
model name : ARMv7 Processor rev 0 (v7l)
BogoMIPS : 1332.01
Features : half thumb fastmult vfp edsp neon vfpv3 tls vfpd32
CPU implementer : 0x41
CPU architecture: 7
CPU variant : 0x3
CPU part : 0xc09
CPU revision : 0

Hardware : Xilinx Zynq Platform
Revision : 0003
Serial : 0000000000000000
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tinhead on January 01, 2019, 12:40:42 pm
@rickwookie (thanks for your effort) made nanddumps from his SDS 8.1.x hw 1.4, so i was able to compare the differences to my SDS 8.1.x hw 1.3. All mtd partitions are exact the same, except 3

mtd6 -> /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
mtd7 -> /usr/bin/siglent/
mtd8 -> /usr/bin/siglent/usr

These has been compared as well, the only differences i found are device specific -> S/N, license files (txt and bin of course), calibration data.
The only left different files are build_id_setting.xml (which contains build_id) and pro_filter_cfg.bin

That means changes between 1.3 and 1.4 are really on hardware level and written into config flash/eeprom.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on January 01, 2019, 01:01:24 pm
so for both the fpga bit file was the same? If so then great, means it should be usable for the 7. aswell,
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tinhead on January 01, 2019, 02:31:39 pm
so for both the fpga bit file was the same? If so then great, means it should be usable for the 7. as well

exact, everything is binary same, except device specific config/cal files, and these two mentioned above which i have no idea what they are for.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on January 01, 2019, 10:24:26 pm
Pro filter is read in, but cant yet see how its used, It is however sitting right next to some strings relating to device bandwidth,

Its defiantly not something that results in a .txt though, as all the other options show up strings in the application. (same file but .txt at the end)

but does relate to the acquisition, as there is an internal variable name "acq_pro_bwl_filter_set", and another "app_pro_bw_if_license_match_bw" that seems to hint at its function

There are also some hidden UI menus relating to "FILTER" but don't know if its related.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on January 06, 2019, 01:04:00 pm
Is it bit better to keep hack and mod things in separate place. Now these are mixewd here and there and everywhere and it is quite difficult specially for new peoples find information for mod-hack related things.
Example here https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/)
-----------


Back to topic and oscilloscope features and performance etc.

Here something about serial decode with I2C and use of history buffer or Sequence mode as in this example. (but for "offline" decode they work same.
It was also some time ago some people messed with serial trigger and serial decode until I tell him that serial decode do not care anything what trigger there is in use, or even if untrigged. As long as there is waveform in memory what can decode it can do it, even if scope is in Run mode or Stop. How ever this serial communication waveform data is there in memory captured with enough resolution for decode it can decode. Also it use always full current memory length. (current memory length is not always this length what user have selected as maximum length in acquisition menu. But in main window and when scope is running , displayed trace length  is always same as current memory length. Also full memory data is always used for decode and automatic measurements.

In this example there is used only one decoder and protocol is I2C.
There is two tiny microcontrollers talking with each others as other part (master) commands.
Because this is artifical example this talking is just two fixed messages repeating around 20ms interval.
Master send 32byte message to slave and also request 32 byte from slave who have its own message to master.
Oscilloscope is connected to this bus and need capture every message what there exist and as many as can.
For this I have selected Sequence mode. Because normal mode history buffer may have some extra blind times and some message perhaps dropped out.  Sequence mode do not update display or loose time for other things so it can easy save every message without drop outs.

Of course there is also other method, for this case, if 1000 sequential msg decode is enough.
Then in this case can select 7M memory and very slow timebase. So that 1000 messages can be inside this one memory length. (with 100kb/s I2C it is easy) In this case whole 1000 msg can decode at once and one decode list can contain them all and this result can also save as .csv data to USB. (I have tested it using 32byte message lengths's)

But here this Sequence - and decode example. Images explanations text are included inside images.

Picked up from some preliminary instructional material.

Equipments used for this example:
SDS1104X-E
Arduino Mega2560 (Master)
Arduino Leonardo (Slave)

story as Classroom Slideshow:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=615100;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=615106;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=615112;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=615118;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=615124;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=615130;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=615136;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=615142;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=615148;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=615154;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=615160;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=615166;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=615172;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=615178;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=615184;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=615190;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=615196;image)
SDS00004_Decode.csv  (from OpenOffice Calc display)


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on January 06, 2019, 01:05:34 pm
As told in previous message example,  of course instead of normal history buffer or sequence acquisition, bus signal can of course capture using single long memory length and decode whole memory length. Depending of bus there can be lot of messages in one acquisition and of course this can decode at once.
But, also this is bad mode if there is long gap between short messages and we want decode lot of sequential messages. Then history buffer or sequence acq. come very handy. Also if we want select only some special messages from bus, example messages only between master and one slave address. (this need also Serial trigger)

Most oscilloscopes do not even have history buffer and also many times segmented memory acquisition is very limited or even impossible to use for decode.

For I2C (IIC, TWI) there is two independent decoders what works simultaneously.  Decoder S1 and S2.

Both decoders maximum amount of messages is 1000. (tested using 1 - 32 byte message length, with all these amount of message bytes count of messages max is 1000).
(example for UART, limit is different, it is 3000 bytes for every simultaneously decoded signal (max 4))

Equipments used for this example:
SDS1104X-E

Decoder 1
Arduino Mega2560 1 (Master)
Arduino Leonardo 1 (Slave 7)
Decoder 2
Arduino Mega2560 2 (Master)
Arduino Leonardo 2 (Slave 8)

Both master-slave pairs run fully independent (only power supply is same for all 4 duino's)

Here in this example Decoder 1 (Bus 1 between masterA and slave 7) message interval is longer than Decoder 2 (Bus 2 between master B and slave 8 ) So decoder 2 maximum limit is reached around half of memory length and Decoder 1 limit is reached nearly end of memory length. (set just for demonstrate this). After decoder limit is reached, it just leave rest of trace undecoded.

Decode list include always whole one decoder decoding result.  List can save to USB using .csv format.
(in this case it have 32000 bytes messages data (1000 x 32byte message)
Time column in list is related to trigger time position.

Also in other image, there  is used window zoom. Independent of this, it decode whole memory until memory end or max count of messages reached. In this image decode list is Decoder 2 list.
I hope some day Siglent add information to list what decoder is selected. Because if bottom menu have other than just List menu then there is no indicator what decoder is selected for list display.
Also some other small improvements are in wish list. Example that if user have selected "fixed position" instead of "fixed delay" for trigger position display. Then delay (imho) is better to display from display position and not from center of display.


(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E-4ch/Serial-I2C/10-IIC-decoders-data-limits.png)


(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E-4ch/Serial-I2C/11-IIC-decoders-data-limits-and-zoom.png)

later some add edit...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Chuki on January 06, 2019, 08:36:17 pm
Thanks for the practical examples helping novices how to work with Acq.ON more (Sequential).
That was the thing I was trying to figure out this week by it was not intuitive and the manual didn't help from the first try.

Could somebody advice on how use 1204/1104xe for tracing a problem witch require ideally "data logging" of 2 hours the turn marker of 200-1500 RPM rotating shaft.
I am able to check with a scope that in ideal conditions turn marker only one pulse per turn. But equipment tends to give not systematic failures over 1-2 hours of work cycle.
There is the idea that either some voltage fluctuations at line \ ground or vibrations (or both) make false/absent rotation pulses. 

Ideally, I need to get 1-2 hours triggers on all pulses and save that data to compare with a time of equipment errors in the final image (equipment is drum scanner and faults to trace are "dead" lines of pixels in the final scan that appear not always and so still are not identified by source).

I was reading in the manual for older Siglent scope model _CML about RECORD function where it is possible to write all untriggered screens with specified time intervals up to 2500. Could 1204xe make such a trick in some mode - it has much better memory than _CML scope model?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on January 07, 2019, 02:41:44 am
Thanks for the practical examples helping novices how to work with Acq.ON more (Sequential).
That was the thing I was trying to figure out this week by it was not intuitive and the manual didn't help from the first try.

Could somebody advice on how use 1204/1104xe for tracing a problem witch require ideally "data logging" of 2 hours the turn marker of 200-1500 RPM rotating shaft.
I am able to check with a scope that in ideal conditions turn marker only one pulse per turn. But equipment tends to give not systematic failures over 1-2 hours of work cycle.
There is the idea that either some voltage fluctuations at line \ ground or vibrations (or both) make false/absent rotation pulses. 

Ideally, I need to get 1-2 hours triggers on all pulses and save that data to compare with a time of equipment errors in the final image (equipment is drum scanner and faults to trace are "dead" lines of pixels in the final scan that appear not always and so still are not identified by source).

I was reading in the manual for older Siglent scope model _CML about RECORD function where it is possible to write all untriggered screens with specified time intervals up to 2500. Could 1204xe make such a trick in some mode - it has much better memory than _CML scope model?
IMO with the additional channels you have it would be better to grab signals from various points and then use the array of different trigger types in conjunction with a Normal or Single trigger setting.
A slow timebase (not Roll) should be used and the trigger position left central.

When triggered (captured) you could have up to 28 Mpts of data internally saved for detailed inspection or to download as a bin or csv file for further analysis on another device.

This is where a DSO can shine providing you’re not stuck in a CRO mindset.
Good luck with your treasure hunt.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on January 07, 2019, 03:16:44 am
Don't know about 28M of data?? Its only 14M to me per channel pair, with both pairs tied to the same trigger? unless I am really missing something,

At its longest timebase you can record at 100s / div, which with 14M memory selected still gives you 50uS spaced data points, plenty to see if a pulse occured at the expected time, and reasonable detail about the pulse, you would have to either come by and either store it to USB once every 23 minutes, or fire of a SCPI command to do the same. (if you want everything)

If you suspect its a missed pulse that would rule out a runt trigger, but if you suspect its below threshold it could work.

What I think may be better to your purposes would be the interval trigger, or dropout trigger, but the pain is the variable speed, if it was over a smaller range, have it normal trigger when its outside the timing margins and it will save up every instance it triggered until the memory is full (set to the lowest memory depth to get the maximum number of records)

Or if you can rig a sensor up for testing, a pattern trigger, may be a good way, so it triggers when your sensor triggers, but not the one in the drum, you can tweak the logic time and holdoff to suit.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on January 07, 2019, 03:27:32 am
Don't know about 28M of data?? Its only 14M to me per channel pair, with both pairs tied to the same trigger? unless I am really missing something,
When monitoring all four channels at an appropriate time base = 28 Mpts of captured data.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on January 07, 2019, 08:02:34 am
Thanks for the practical examples helping novices how to work with Acq.ON more (Sequential).
That was the thing I was trying to figure out this week by it was not intuitive and the manual didn't help from the first try.

Could somebody advice on how use 1204/1104xe for tracing a problem witch require ideally "data logging" of 2 hours the turn marker of 200-1500 RPM rotating shaft.
I am able to check with a scope that in ideal conditions turn marker only one pulse per turn. But equipment tends to give not systematic failures over 1-2 hours of work cycle.
There is the idea that either some voltage fluctuations at line \ ground or vibrations (or both) make false/absent rotation pulses. 

Ideally, I need to get 1-2 hours triggers on all pulses and save that data to compare with a time of equipment errors in the final image (equipment is drum scanner and faults to trace are "dead" lines of pixels in the final scan that appear not always and so still are not identified by source).

I was reading in the manual for older Siglent scope model _CML about RECORD function where it is possible to write all untriggered screens with specified time intervals up to 2500. Could 1204xe make such a trick in some mode - it has much better memory than _CML scope model?

CML Record function is very extremely different what is in modern SDS1000X and X-E series.
CML records TFT frames, up to 2500 and with user settable interval. (There is also "Recorder" in CML but it have 6M memory and it can record low samplerates continuously up to 6Msamples, but it is so very long time I have used CML that it is better I do not try tell how it works.

SDS1000X-E
It can save up to 80000 trigged waveforms. (normal mode to wavefrom history buffere FIFO, woreking always in bacround. OR in special Sequence mode to this same history buffer. In sequence mode scope do not handle any other processes  what may  lead to loose some trigger event so it also do not display during this Sequence until whole sequence is ready)



Odd but still principle itself is valid.
(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X/history-segment.png)





Old but principle itself is still valid.
(https://siglent.fi/pub8S/SDS1000X/SDS-WaveformHistoryAndSegBuff.png)






Next image show amount of history and sequence mode segment memory

(https://siglent.fi/data/SDS1000X-E-4-CH/table-amount-of-segments-wfmbuffer.png)





How ever acquisition is made to history buffer (normal or sequence mode)
Every single acquisition (every single horizontal sweep) is time stamped. If there is 80000 or 2 acquistions in buffer every have time stamp (but there is not real time clock in system so time of clock is not true time but time between acquisitions is accurate)


(https://siglent.fi/pub8S/SDS1000X/ESK/SDS1000X-A-HistoryLook.png)

(example of time list. User can select what segment (frame) he want look. Also it need note that this do not save image memory, it save ADC data and every segment (frame) is current memory length in use. This is why all can post process including interpolation and math and measurements, even run mask test.

----
But now your problem.
If you want only record time interval list when trigger have occured (scope have detected pulse) you can record 80000 time stamps.
Just set scope to trig this pulse. Set trigger so that it trig when pulse signal meet some your specified values.
For max count of events. Then set scope for 10ns/div and select sequence mode with max 80000 segments. Yes in this case waveform length is only 140ns. You can not see your pulse (perhaps part of rise edge or?) but every time it meet trigger, it make acquisition and write time stamp for it.

But, now, even with this if your speed is constant 1500rpm and one pulse per turn you get 80000 time stamps. 80000/1500=53,3 minute. With this speed, over this time you have time stamp (including time after last event aka interval) from every single trig. You can watch if there is missing trig (missing pulse as trigger setup have defined what us "pulse").
But not alone this. Other channel(s) can also be in use and also data from these is saved same time (example one may watch some point voltage etc)
But then, if you want also see your whole pulse there need use much more long length for one acquisition.
If think your max speed even with this 1500rpm  one turn is 40ms. I do not know anything what kind of sensor you have for pulses and how long is your pulse with minimum and maximum speed (200 - 1500rpm) perhaps we talk milliseconds.

This is only imagination. If think your pulse width 36th of turn (10 degree) then pulse width is roughly between 10ms to 1ms.
Ok, perhaps then 1ms/div is ok for look whole pulse.
If want look maximum amount of pulses what can record using normal history or sequence mode. If reduce memory length to 7k and t/div is 1ms and then sampling speed is 500kSa/s (samples interval 2us). Maximum amount is 3912 this kind of waveforms stored in memory (in 4 channel model 4 channel parallel)
with 1500rpm this is only 2.6 min. and 200rpm it is 19.5 min. (but of course time resolution is still good and lot of more than needed)


But this is not alone what can do. But this is not for your case.

Example. If want longest record, lowest samplerate and with some time gap between records
It can do (extreme limit) 5 sample per second
Limit memory length (acquisition length) to 7k
Set 100s/div3
Now one acquistion time lenght is 100s*14 = 1400 seconds 231/3min
and now it can also record 3912 of these, total 63 days long sum of data but total time more.  As told, between these 231/3min records there is gap. I have not checked now and I'm not sure if I remember right but gap is around one horizontal div so in this case ~100s gaps. So total time is even more than 63 days
Of course selecting optimal time base and optimal one acquisition length there can fid solution for many kind of needs, but of course not for all needs.


Old times I have been working in factory where we need always analyze and find some mysterious errors in lot of different machines and processes. Of course there we have analog and digital data recorders, scopes, spectrum analyzers and so on...  of course because if manufacturing stop due to some failure in machines it is hundreds or "sky is limit" times more expensive than some electronic test equipments. But still, in many cases. Because time is money and specially, "less time = save more money".
There was golden rule. Do it simply!  Do not waste time for finding this and that and for nice analyzators and scratching head how I use this for remove this problem in important machine.

One solution is that you install reliable extra detector one pulse per turn . (what ever even simplest but reliable, example some  proximity sensor) then trig scope with it and watch that with every this pulse appear also this pulse what you suspect. After you find more what happen there you can analyze just this situation where failure happen, example watching some drop outs etc.
With extra sensor you can even simple trig only when it fails.
Of course if your shaft speed is constant this is extremely easy just with normal trigger functions without any extra but your speed change between 200-1500rpm so this need some things what can "remove" this speed change affect. One is just extra sensor. Most easy if you have available it.

But then, do you like analyze it because analyzing something is so nice... or repair it now or better if yesterday....

Example about other kind of thinking. Of course this is trivial example and perhaps not at all for your case...  but some times we need break thinking some locked or circle paths in our brain and find other thinking paths for find solutions. Some times solutions are even extremely simple after it pops up.
Think example what happen there when one pulse pulse is missing. What it do in this case and can you use this information... you know digital scope is always doing pretrigger sampling until trigger... so you can easy get what happen before something has happened. If you can detect (failure) result then you can analyze what happen before...  just tip for change thinking method to reverse (cousin of this is negation test in thinking process)


For siglent there something in wish list.

100s/div is now slowest.

It can change to  1000s/div or even 10000s/div  (roll mode 100Sa/s and normal mode 1kSa/s)
This need only some bytes in FW. 
Some competitors have it.
There have been many times some questions about more long time data recording.

Even with these extra slow sample rates it can directly save continuous wfm to USB. There is now lot of processing power for it.

It was long long time ago even SDS1000CML can do it when very slow samplerate, directly to USB (I do not know when they have take it off)

Now there is processing power, SDS1kXE can easy do much more this kind of things. More slow t/div andf also direct unlimited length capture to USB if sample rate is enough slow. 
It is not only one people who need more long capture times or even like very long time data logger without time gaps.







Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on January 07, 2019, 08:07:28 am
Don't know about 28M of data?? Its only 14M to me per channel pair, with both pairs tied to the same trigger? unless I am really missing something,
When monitoring all four channels at an appropriate time base = 28 Mpts of captured data.

In 4 channel model even 109Mpts captured data (in history or sequence)  ;D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on January 07, 2019, 09:14:51 am
rf-loop, would you be willing to go into exactly what bytes need to be changed for the longer modes? I can only see 1000s for the upper and 200ps and 500ps unused for the lower, as strings in the app? while I'm curious about those lower time bases, I would love to know what the modification procedure is.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on January 07, 2019, 10:31:50 am
rf-loop, would you be willing to go into exactly what bytes need to be changed for the longer modes? I can only see 1000s for the upper and 200ps and 500ps unused for the lower, as strings in the app? while I'm curious about those lower time bases, I would love to know what the modification procedure is.
Individuals mods are very much other things. ;) And as told previously these things are better to discuss in dedicated thread for these...  example here : https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-hack-to-200mhz-and-full-options/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-hack-to-200mhz-and-full-options/)

or here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/msg1788704/#msg1788704 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/msg1788704/#msg1788704)



Firmware development is Siglent work.  It need add to product features.
It is Siglent work to develop products better and better and add features or develop some features better. Of course in priority order. First "immediately" fatal bugs if exist
Then 2nd level bugs
Then some finishing/grinding UI and also adding some features or change some limits (as example add 200, 500 and 1000s/div and also wish they add one more short max memory limit selection (now they are 14/7M, 1.4M/700k, 140k/70k and 14k/7k) and I like if there is also 1.4k/700 selectable. (it give more freedom for history/segmented)

I do only that I write wish list to "Santa Claus" (in this case Siglent) and then waiting christmas.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tinhead on January 07, 2019, 09:28:17 pm
i found small bug, only CH1 and CH3 affected, only when CH2 and CH4 are off. In fine adjust mode, 302mV/DIV is on wrong position. Seems to be only the case as well memory ans timebase dependent (14M 1ms->1ns, 1.4M 100us->1ns, 140k 10us->1ns, 1.4k 1us -> 1ns).

Tested on 8.1.6.1.26, hw1.3


EDIT: hmm, there is actually more like that, 1.54mV/DIV to 1.50mv/DIV, then very strange jumps/no move from 1.36mV to 780uV/DIV, then the wave jumps down by 2 DIVs down between 770uV/DIV and 750uV/DIV. Same as above, dependent on timebase and memory settings, this time CH1 more affected than CH3, no problem with CH2 and CH4.

Can someone check that? My DSO is for sure properly calibrated and still under quick warranty, so maybe i have to replace it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on January 08, 2019, 01:03:20 am
Around the weird steps would you be able to run the scpi command c1:vgac? This will return the setting for the variable gain amplifier. And will give insight into if its the adc scaling at that point or the vga
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on January 08, 2019, 04:34:23 am
i found small bug, only CH1 and CH3 affected, only when CH2 and CH4 are off. In fine adjust mode, 302mV/DIV is on wrong position. Seems to be only the case as well memory ans timebase dependent (14M 1ms->1ns, 1.4M 100us->1ns, 140k 10us->1ns, 1.4k 1us -> 1ns).

Tested on 8.1.6.1.26, hw1.3


EDIT: hmm, there is actually more like that, 1.54mV/DIV to 1.50mv/DIV, then very strange jumps/no move from 1.36mV to 780uV/DIV, then the wave jumps down by 2 DIVs down between 770uV/DIV and 750uV/DIV. Same as above, dependent on timebase and memory settings, this time CH1 more affected than CH3, no problem with CH2 and CH4.

Can someone check that? My DSO is for sure properly calibrated and still under quick warranty, so maybe i have to replace it.

Tst 7.1.6.1.26 (and siglent have told to me that FW  first number 7 or 8 is just "do not care" when update FW if it is 7 or 8 but not told what is real difference (if any). My HW 00-03: Nothing like this.

My first opinion is: return it with note "fault on arrival" and short info about problem so that if seller is very bad like amazon or equal they do not sell it to next victim.



Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on January 08, 2019, 07:53:06 am
Yep, looks like there is something weird about the calibration for certain values, and seems to be related to VGAC it rolls over at 750uV, 1.50mV, 3.50mV, 7.50mV etc,

However the first 2 seem to have an error at the roll over. Equally it hints that it should be able to allow for as low as about 350uV / div on a hardware perspective. and up to about 12V/div on the upper,

To make clear, the C1:VGAC command is a com/query that you can use to manually set the variable gain amplifier, values between 15 - 199 seems to be the valid range used during device calibration, though it may be able to use the full 0-255, which would possibly allow all the way down to 300uV/div. room for imagination for anyone else who actually has gear to test accurate AC amplitude at crazy low amplitudes.

There is something else also being used during those step changes, but I have not yet found a command for it.

Below is the VGAC values for each vdiv step on my scope, you can see it goes a bit wonky at 750uV and 1.50mV

Code: [Select]
500uv 183
510uV   182
520uV   181
530uV 180
540uV 179
550uV 178
560uV 177
570uV 176
580uV 175
590uV 174
600uV 174
610uV 173
620uV 172
630uV 171
640uV 171
650uV 170
660uV 170
670uV 169
680uV 168
690uV 168
700uV 167
710uV 167
720uV 166
730uV 165
740uV 165

750uV 154
760uV 154

770uV 199
780uV 198
790uV 197
800uV 196
810uV 196
820uV 195
830uV 194
840uV 193
850uV 192
860uV 192
870uV 191
880uV 190
890uV 189
900uV 189
910uV 188
920uV 188
930uV 187
940uV 186
950uV 186
960uV 185
970uV 184
980uV 184
990uV 183
1.00mV 183
1.02mV 182
1.04mV 181
1.06mV 180
1.08mV 179
1.10mV 178
1.12mV 177
1.14mV 176
1.16mV 175
1.18mV 174
1.20mV 174
1.22mV 173
1.24mV 172
1.26mV 171
1.28mV 171
1.30mV 170
1.32mV 170
1.34mV 169
1.36mV 168
1.38mV 168
1.40mV 167
1.42mV 167
1.44mV 166
1.46mV 165
1.48mV 165

1.50mV 154
1.52mV 154

1.54mV 199
1.56mV 198
1.58mV 197
1.60mV 196
1.62mV 196
1.64mV 195
1.66mV 194
1.68mV 193
1.70mV 192
1.72mV 192
1.74mV 191
1.76mV 190
1.78mV 189
1.80mV 189
1.82mV 188
1.84mV 188
1.86mV 187
1.88mV 186
1.90mV 186
1.92mV 185
1.94mV 184
1.96mV 184
1.98mV 183
2.00mV 183
2.06mV 181
2.12mV 180

2.18mV 178
2.24mV 177

2.30mV 175
2.36mV 174
2.42mV 173
2.48mV 172
2.54mV 171
2.60mV 170
2.66mV 169
2.72mV 168
2.78mV 167
2.84mV 167
2.90mV 166
2.96mV 165
3.02mV 164
3.08mV 164
3.14mV 163
3.20mV 162
3.26mV 162
3.32mV 161
3.38mV 160
3.44mv 160

3.50mV 190
3.56mV 189
3.62mV 188
3.68mV 188
3.74mV 187
3.80mV 186
3.86mV 185
3.92mV 184
3.98mV 183
4.04mV 182
4.10mV 181
4.16mV 181
4.22mV 180
4.28mV 179
4.34mV 178
4.40mV 178
4.46mV 177
4.52mV 176
4.58mV 176
4.64mV 175
4.70mV 175
4.76mV 174
4.82mV 173
4.88mV 173
4.94mV 172
5.00mV 172
5.10mV 171
5.20mV 170
5.30mV 169
5.40mV 169
5.50mV 168
5.60mV 167
5.70mV 166
5.80mV 166
5.90mV 165
6.00mV 165
6.10mV 164
6.20mV 163
6.30mV 163
6.40mV 162
6.50mV 162
6.60mV 161
6.70mV 161
6.80mV 160
6.90mV 160
7.00mV 159
7.10mV 159
7.20mV 158
7.30mV 158
7.40mV 158

7.50mV 187
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on January 08, 2019, 08:45:49 am
Some suggestions to Siglent about messages and captions on the screen.

1. The captions on the screen should be in front of the waveforms and not transparent or almost not transparent. Currently they often become unreadable when they are crossed by waveforms.

Clear suggestions for improving readability of text overlays were made before (July 2018) here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1713224/#msg1713224 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1713224/#msg1713224)

Unfortunately @Siglent appears still not to care about this. The same holds for Wifi related bugs e.g. like described (July 2018) here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1708814/?topicseen#msg1708814 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1708814/?topicseen#msg1708814)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bluejedi on January 08, 2019, 09:25:10 am
I do only that I write wish list to "Santa Claus" (in this case Siglent) and then waiting christmas.

Oh, please not Christmas because then we will have to wait for (almost) a whole year.  8)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on January 08, 2019, 09:25:54 am
Ok, can confirm VGAC works from 1-255, with a code of 255 does make it display a hair shy of 300uV/div,

And a code of 1 on the 10V/div range makes the signal display at about 100V/div, dont have a signal source that high, so its approximate, no sure to what end someone would want to compress the signal at the higher end, but it exists,  ^-^
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on January 08, 2019, 09:48:33 am
Yep, looks like there is something weird about the calibration for certain values, and seems to be related to VGAC it rolls over at 750uV, 1.50mV, 3.50mV, 7.50mV etc,

However the first 2 seem to have an error at the roll over. Equally it hints that it should be able to allow for as low as about 350uV / div on a hardware perspective. and up to about 12V/div on the upper,

To make clear, the C1:VGAC command is a com/query that you can use to manually set the variable gain amplifier, values between 15 - 199 seems to be the valid range used during device calibration, though it may be able to use the full 0-255, which would possibly allow all the way down to 100uV/div. room for imagination for anyone else who actually has gear to test accurate AC amplitude at crazy low amplitudes.

There is something else also being used during those step changes, but I have not yet found a command for it.

Below is the VGAC values for each vdiv step on my scope, you can see it goes a bit wonky at 750uV and 1.50mV

Code: [Select]
500uv 183
510uV   182
520uV   181
530uV 180
540uV 179
550uV 178
560uV 177
570uV 176
580uV 175
590uV 174
600uV 174
610uV 173
620uV 172
630uV 171
640uV 171
650uV 170
660uV 170
670uV 169
680uV 168
690uV 168
700uV 167
710uV 167
720uV 166
730uV 165
740uV 165

750uV 154
760uV 154

770uV 199
780uV 198
790uV 197
800uV 196
810uV 196
820uV 195
830uV 194
840uV 193
850uV 192
860uV 192
870uV 191
880uV 190
890uV 189
900uV 189
910uV 188
920uV 188
930uV 187
940uV 186
950uV 186
960uV 185
970uV 184
980uV 184
990uV 183
1.00mV 183
1.02mV 182
1.04mV 181
1.06mV 180
1.08mV 179
1.10mV 178
1.12mV 177
1.14mV 176
1.16mV 175
1.18mV 174
1.20mV 174
1.22mV 173
1.24mV 172
1.26mV 171
1.28mV 171
1.30mV 170
1.32mV 170
1.34mV 169
1.36mV 168
1.38mV 168
1.40mV 167
1.42mV 167
1.44mV 166
1.46mV 165
1.48mV 165

1.50mV 154
1.52mV 154

1.54mV 199
1.56mV 198
1.58mV 197
1.60mV 196
1.62mV 196
1.64mV 195
1.66mV 194
1.68mV 193
1.70mV 192
1.72mV 192
1.74mV 191
1.76mV 190
1.78mV 189
1.80mV 189
1.82mV 188
1.84mV 188
1.86mV 187
1.88mV 186
1.90mV 186
1.92mV 185
1.94mV 184
1.96mV 184
1.98mV 183
2.00mV 183
2.06mV 181
2.12mV 180

2.18mV 178
2.24mV 177

2.30mV 175
2.36mV 174
2.42mV 173
2.48mV 172
2.54mV 171
2.60mV 170
2.66mV 169
2.72mV 168
2.78mV 167
2.84mV 167
2.90mV 166
2.96mV 165
3.02mV 164
3.08mV 164
3.14mV 163
3.20mV 162
3.26mV 162
3.32mV 161
3.38mV 160
3.44mv 160

3.50mV 190
3.56mV 189
3.62mV 188
3.68mV 188
3.74mV 187
3.80mV 186
3.86mV 185
3.92mV 184
3.98mV 183
4.04mV 182
4.10mV 181
4.16mV 181
4.22mV 180
4.28mV 179
4.34mV 178
4.40mV 178
4.46mV 177
4.52mV 176
4.58mV 176
4.64mV 175
4.70mV 175
4.76mV 174
4.82mV 173
4.88mV 173
4.94mV 172
5.00mV 172
5.10mV 171
5.20mV 170
5.30mV 169
5.40mV 169
5.50mV 168
5.60mV 167
5.70mV 166
5.80mV 166
5.90mV 165
6.00mV 165
6.10mV 164
6.20mV 163
6.30mV 163
6.40mV 162
6.50mV 162
6.60mV 161
6.70mV 161
6.80mV 160
6.90mV 160
7.00mV 159
7.10mV 159
7.20mV 158
7.30mV 158
7.40mV 158

7.50mV 187

Nice findings.


And then one small pick-up: "....has gear to test accurate AC amplitude at crazy low amplitudes." ;)

100uV class is not crazy low even if it is peak to peak (around -76dBm what is quite strong signal (in radio). Normal good rf generators goes usually down to well below -127dBm (100nVrms) This my one old "33kg junk" goes down to -140dBm (23nVrms)

One tiny experimental playing like kid.
Using higher level as external trig Ch4 and measured in Ch1 just using 500uV/div and 129MHz signal -72dBm, nicely  without big error (256 acquisition  average) Gen out -72dBm and SDS1204X-E display signal level Stdev (ac rms) 53uV. This trigger method need because of course it can not trig directly this kind of low signal what was measured in Ch1. 
Also this need high amount of trace averaging for get any useful signal out from noise to display, but with continuous signal it is possible.



But then bac out from "just fun"  playing.
Also it need think reality. Reality is that this kind of oscilloscope input and front end have quite LOT of noise if think these low signals. It is never designed as SA or radio front end. First thing is that even when there is AC/DC selection front end amp is dual pathway DC coupled and LF (specially 1/f) noise is huge due to many reasons. Then it is also for 1Mohm input.  Even when these cheap scopes have 50ohm inputs front end is still 1M. How much is 1Mohm Johnson noise alone.
Even this 500uV/div is borderline but still useable. If we amplify this noise more... what we get.
Front end is totally different animal if it is designed for -80 or -100dBm range...
500uVp-p is roughly -62dBm in 50ohm system.

Perhaps it is more wise to use preamplifier if oscilloscope really need look this kind of low level signals. Most oscilloscopes normal  most sensitive range is around 2 - 5mV/div (full resolution) and with reason(s).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on January 08, 2019, 10:11:57 am
I chose my wording poorly, but for me that is low amplitude in the realm of a scope. And while I have plenty of signal sources, I lack any direct way to measure amplitudes that low with any hope of accuracy.

I agree its pretty noisy down at the 500uV range, however It works on all attenuation ranges. so you can abuse it to view smaller signals on the larger offset ranges, e.g. 8mV / div at a +-21V offset range. or 70mV/div at a +-210V offset range, this is where I see it being much more useful,  >:D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on January 08, 2019, 12:05:33 pm
I chose my wording poorly, but for me that is low amplitude in the realm of a scope. And while I have plenty of signal sources, I lack any direct way to measure amplitudes that low with any hope of accuracy.

I agree its pretty noisy down at the 500uV range,

We can say it is very npisy. But also we can say it have very low noise. It depends context. When we talk roughly this class of oscilloscopes it can say it have low noise. Compare to Rigol, compare to Keysight, compare to... ~30uVrms 100Mhz BW is not at all bad.

(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E-4ch/01-Keysight-MSOX2024A--BW-200MHz-1mV-5us-div-1Minput-open-noise.png)
@srce: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-input-noise-comparison/msg1964747/#msg1964747 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-input-noise-comparison/msg1964747/#msg1964747)

(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E-4ch/02-Siglent-SDS1204X-E--BW-200MHz-1mV-5us-div-1Minput-open-noise.png)
200MHz model

(https://siglent.fi/miscpic/RigSig-noise.png)
Compared 100MHz vs 100MHz, settings are comparable.



however It works on all attenuation ranges. so you can abuse it to view smaller signals on the larger offset ranges, e.g. 8mV / div at a +-21V offset range. or 70mV/div at a +-210V offset range, this is where I see it being much more useful,  >:D

Can you explain it bit more. Perhaps I now have a brain short circuit and I don't understand.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on January 09, 2019, 06:05:27 am
Ok, the simplest way to demonstrate it for yourself would be, set your scope to 200mV/div, this will click over the attenuator so its in the +-21V offset range, now at this point, the VGA for the front end is barely amplifying at all, with a VGA (variable gain Amplifier) code around 30,

The higher the code, the higher the amplification,

Now with it like that, sending "C1:VGAC 255" over SCPI (or webserver) will set the VGA to maximum amplification, which is about 8mV/div for my device, As I dig into the device calibration, Its possible we can figure out exactly what it is for each code, I should point out its more noisy than the actual 5mV/div range, but if you need it on a bigger offset, then the scope can indeed do it.

This will revert if you change the channel offset or vdiv manually, The increased offset range comes from the "C1:DACC" command I documented earlier, you have a bit of extra offset range at both ends,

This just leaves some other attenuation / amplification happening in the chain when the VGAC code rolls around, I suspect its to do with the "C1:DAC_ATTEN_SET" command, Haven't documented it, but its in the same decision tree as the other 2, so once I have him nutted out, there may be a little more we can abuse.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on January 11, 2019, 09:13:35 am
More digging, the VGAC command directly sets the fine gain register for the VGAC which is an AD8370, And some further digging confirms there is a roll over in the middle which is the switch from low gain mode to high gain mode.

So my example of 8mV/div on the 20V offset range is amplified to 52 V/V, and does show similar noise to the 500uV range, which makes sense when its amplifying that much.
Now that we know this, Its not hard to extrapolate out any intermediate V/V of gain if you need an odd measurement

https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/ad8370.pdf (https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/ad8370.pdf)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on January 12, 2019, 01:10:53 am
And finally, an explanation for the quirk with the fine gain calibration, at 750-760uV and 1.50-1.52mV its an overflow based on how they limited there calibration routine, At these points the VGAC code is meant to be greater than 199, but in how they have implemented things, that results in it defaulting to 154 when it cannot find a matching record.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tmbinc on January 14, 2019, 07:14:28 pm
Not sure if this had been posted here, but the analog frontend was reverse-engineered:

https://github.com/360nosc0pe/siglent_hardware/tree/master/sds1202xe/siglent_AFE (https://github.com/360nosc0pe/siglent_hardware/tree/master/sds1202xe/siglent_AFE)

The gain setting is a combination of the VGA setting, the ADC settings and the shift register:


### AFE (analog front-end) setting
Each channel of the scope contain one 74HC595 shift out register powered by 5V.
Five of the eight outputs are used to change hardware settings in the AFE:

    595_QB:  First divider, 10:1, active high
    595_QC:  Second divider, 10:1, active high
    595_QD:  AC coupling, low = AC, high = DC
    595_QE:  PGA enable, active high
    595_QF:  BW limit, low = 20MHz, high = full



From my notes: (Sorry about the formatting)

ADC is the write to reg 0x2B of the HMCAD1511 ADC (Datasheet: https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/hmcad1511.pdf (https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/hmcad1511.pdf)), the "coarse gain" register. Value is in dB (actually). ShiftReg is the value written to the frontend shift register. VGA is the value set to the VGA.



         ADC ShiftReg ADC VGA
  5mV   2B 09   78   +9  B9
 10mV   2b 06   78   +6  B9
 20mV   2B 04   78   +4  B9
 50mV   2b 02   78   +2  AD
100mV   2B 00   78   +0  AD
200 mV  2B 04   78   +4  27
500 mV  2B 00   78   +0  3f
  1v    2B 00   78   +0  1F
  2V    2B 04   7A   +4  29
  5v    2B 00   7A   +0  41
 10V    2B 00   7A       21
 20V    2B 04   7E       28
 50v    2B 04   7E       41
100V            7E       20

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on January 14, 2019, 08:13:37 pm
Not sure if this had been posted here, but the analog frontend was reverse-engineered:
This is a better thread for SDS1202X-E stuff:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-_official_-siglent-sds1202x-e-thread/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-_official_-siglent-sds1202x-e-thread/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tinhead on January 14, 2019, 08:13:56 pm
Not sure if this had been posted here, but the analog frontend was reverse-engineered:

https://github.com/360nosc0pe/siglent_hardware/tree/master/sds1202xe/siglent_AFE (https://github.com/360nosc0pe/siglent_hardware/tree/master/sds1202xe/siglent_AFE)


i don't think this has been properly done, look at this part:

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on January 14, 2019, 10:21:08 pm
Thanks for that tmbinc. That explains the 2B value I keep seeing around ADC calibration. Now to just determine how to change it via scpi.

As it notes its calibration as X1 X10 and X100. That explains some of the weirdness I have been seeing. If i can read or write them. Well there is a part of the calibrarion routine that gives up on correcting the Dac offset. Amd that would let me verify if the values end up used.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Andreax1985 on January 28, 2019, 11:50:55 pm
I need to measure AC ripple on a 320V DC signal using AC coupling mode. SDS1004X-E input is rated for 400Vpk. Is this enough for my needs? (My worry is due to the fact that 400Vpk correspond to 280Vrms...)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on January 29, 2019, 12:02:47 am
At this voltage rate you should use a differential or a 100:1 probe.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on January 29, 2019, 07:38:15 am
I need to measure AC ripple on a 320V DC signal using AC coupling mode. SDS1004X-E input is rated for 400Vpk. Is this enough for my needs? (My worry is due to the fact that 400Vpk correspond to 280Vrms...)
It heavily depends on the exact waveform what 400Vp actually corresponds to. For DC however, peak and rms are identical.
So with 320VDC you got 80Vp headroom left. That means that the ripple must not exceed 80Vp, but I would think if it is anywhere near that much, then there would also be no need to maximize the sensitivity (and use x1 probe factor) either.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on January 29, 2019, 08:30:47 am
I should also point out probes have there own voltage ratings, looking on the side of a random one I have on hand (X1: 150V, X10: 300V) its not a siglent probe, so check yours first.

If the probe cannot handle the voltage, but the scope can, it means you will just have to use a coax cable to measure it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on January 29, 2019, 09:04:37 am
I should also point out probes have there own voltage ratings, looking on the side of a random one I have on hand (X1: 150V, X10: 300V) its not a siglent probe, so check yours first.

If the probe cannot handle the voltage, but the scope can, it means you will just have to use a coax cable to measure it.

Siglent example PP510 and PP215 and PB470
10x  600VDC  (or AC peak)
1x    300VDC  (or AC peak)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: plurn on January 29, 2019, 04:44:58 pm
I should also point out probes have there own voltage ratings, looking on the side of a random one I have on hand (X1: 150V, X10: 300V) its not a siglent probe, so check yours first.

If the probe cannot handle the voltage, but the scope can, it means you will just have to use a coax cable to measure it.

Siglent example PP510 and PP215 and PB470
10x  600VDC  (or AC peak)
1x    300VDC  (or AC peak)

Just checked one of my siglent PP510 probes and it says this on the probe itself:

1x   150V
10x  300V
CAT II

user guide for that probe says:
max input voltage: 1X:150V RMS CAT II&10X:300V RMS CAT II
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on January 29, 2019, 08:22:26 pm
I should also point out probes have there own voltage ratings, looking on the side of a random one I have on hand (X1: 150V, X10: 300V) its not a siglent probe, so check yours first.

If the probe cannot handle the voltage, but the scope can, it means you will just have to use a coax cable to measure it.

Siglent example PP510 and PP215 and PB470
10x  600VDC  (or AC peak)
1x    300VDC  (or AC peak)

Just checked one of my siglent PP510 probes and it says this on the probe itself:

1x   150V
10x  300V
CAT II

user guide for that probe says:
max input voltage: 1X:150V RMS CAT II&10X:300V RMS CAT II

You are right.
I chek PP215 and PB470 from real probe in my hand.
PP510 I check from Siglent list what I have get from Siglent and it say:
Quote
PP510 1X/10X attenuation, 85/18pf, 1M/10Mohm, 6M/100MHz, 300V/600V,
operating temperature -15 to 75 degrees

Same as PB470 and PP215 exept bandwidth.

Now I open one scope carton and take PP510 my hand and.....    ....and it is just as you told 150/300V.

Except...
PP215 is 300/600V DC and  PK AC

PP510 probe read 1x 150V  10x 300V CAT II and nothing more
but in probe pouch small sheet reads
1x  150V  RMS, 10x 300V RMS

Ok if I think 300V AC RMS. Then Vpk is  424V rounded 400Vpk.
But then, what is AC without frequency. Oh yes, one mHz and uHz is also AC. All except theoretical DC is AC. And it do not exist in nature. So, only conclusion is that it can also turn to 300V AC RMS, 400Vpk, 400V "DC". ;)

Then for more mess...

Attached part of Siglent's probes data sheet. There all these probes have same info exept BW and it is also strange. I do not anymore believe it..

What to believe now. How it can be this kind of mess.

PP215 probe pouch small info sheet: 1x: 300V&10x:600V Working voltage (Vp-p)

I have not previously looked these so carefully due to fact that no one have asked anything about over some tens of volts because it is not so common that serious users use this kind of probes for high voltage things and who ever perhaps use they are normally enough educated so that they do not need ask anything. One I have told to some people, it last normal 230Vac when 10x.

But I must say,  the information is rather confusing and contradictory. I guess those who are writing these papers don't even really know what these are and how the parameters should be written so that the interpretation is unambiguous and appropriate.

So, what is final conclusion...
 
I can say "Who knows" until smoke come out.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on February 06, 2019, 12:34:19 pm
Some more command Info,

To dump the full decode memory use the command "DCLR", you have 2 options, "DCLR? HEAD" which looks to scrape the length of the decode table, and "DCLR? DATA" which dumps exactly what you see on the decode list (whitespace and all), with the entry number and timestamps.

I've dug furthur into the DeCo_PAram Command, It has keywords (BUS,LIST,FOMT,LSSC,B1LSFN,B2LSFN,LSMN) but not yet clear on what data should be passed for each.

Next up, the decoder commands, these commands are used to setup a decoder via SCPI, they have query's but they are set to return 1, so my best guess is the queries are "To be developed later",
B1:DCCN (Can Decoder for Bus 1), has the Keywords (DIS,CANH,CANHT,CANL,CANLT,SRC,BAUD)
B1:DCIC (I2C Decoder for Bus 1), has the Keywords (DIS,SCL,SCLT,SDA,SDAT,RW)
B1:DCLN (Lin Decoder for Bus 1), has the Keywords (DIS,SRC,SRCT,BAUD)
B1:DCSP (SPI Decoder for Bus 1), has the Keywords (DIS,CLK,CLKT,EDGE,MISO,MISOT,MOSI,MOSIT,CSTP,CS,CST,NCS,NCST,LMT,BTOD,DTLG)
B1:DCUT (Uart Decoder for Bus 1), has the Keywords (DIS,RX,RXT,TX,TXT,BAUD,DTLG,PRCK,STOP,IDLE,BTOD)

Now my feeling is for the Pairs, e.g. RX / RXT, RX is the input that channel is on, RXT is the trigger threshold for that channel. as for its full documentation, that may come later, just felt I would raise this as the decode buffer is something people have been after
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: gamerpaddy on February 06, 2019, 01:18:42 pm
Just fixed a bug i thought it wasnt a bug until i accidentally fixed it..
My scope was unusable under 10mv/div at 1x, lots of noise. i tought its a smps going full retard somewhere in my house, but i turned everything off and even put the scope on a USV.. still this weird noise
it consisted of 20khz and 30khz peaks, some more in the upper band at around -50..40dB
I tried calibrating, but it did not solve anything.   
Even shorting the probes didnt help much.
it looked like this: (https://i.imgur.com/mFvLmvI.png)

I did this production mode hack back then, so i didnt wanted to do a firmware update.
But now i tried updating to the latest firmware since meh what could happen, it updated without problems, and even kept the hack active (the firmware from Aug/Sept 2018)
And the noise issue was gone, i was now able to go below 1mv/div and have a useable line on my screen. 



Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on February 07, 2019, 07:31:11 pm
I have ordered a 1104X-E, hoping to get it next week. However, I have a question: This model has no real on/off switch, which I'm not a huge fan of. I guess it's because they want it to properly shut down every time (hence only a soft button), but an additional physical switch to remove power could still have been there. Just like the switch on a computer power supply.

So, what do you guys do? Leave it plugged in, or do you unplug it after use? Or do you add some external switch to cut power?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 07, 2019, 07:38:54 pm
I have ordered a 1104X-E, hoping to get it next week. However, I have a question: This model has no real on/off switch, which I'm not a huge fan of. I guess it's because they want it to properly shut down every time (hence only a soft button), but an additional physical switch to remove power could still have been there. Just like the switch on a computer power supply.

So, what do you guys do? Leave it plugged in, or do you unplug it after use? Or do you add some external switch to cut power?
Welcome to the forum.

You certainly can add an external switch but use scopes soft button to turn it OFF first.....it needs a second or two to shut down its OS correctly.
If I'm not at my bench using test equipment it's OFF at the wall.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on February 07, 2019, 07:49:43 pm
I have ordered a 1104X-E, hoping to get it next week. However, I have a question: This model has no real on/off switch, which I'm not a huge fan of. I guess it's because they want it to properly shut down every time (hence only a soft button), but an additional physical switch to remove power could still have been there. Just like the switch on a computer power supply.

So, what do you guys do? Leave it plugged in, or do you unplug it after use? Or do you add some external switch to cut power?
Welcome to the forum.

You certainly can add an external switch but use scopes soft button to turn it OFF first.....it needs a second or two to shut down its OS correctly.
If I'm not at my bench using test equipment it's OFF at the wall.

Thanks! Having the power properly cut when unused is obviously the best strategy, so I guess I'll just have to add an external switch, just to be on the safe side.

And thanks for the welcome as well! I'm an electronics engineer that hasn't really done any electronics in a great many years, but suddenly I got the urge to order a new oscilloscope. My TDS210 still works, but the data record length is laughable by today's standards. And only 2 channels as well. I also have an old Goldstar OS9020G, but it hasn't seen any use for at least 15 years. It just takes up space, and has no real purpose any more.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 07, 2019, 07:54:57 pm
And thanks for the welcome as well! I'm an electronics engineer that hasn't really done any electronics in a great many years, but suddenly I got the urge to order a new oscilloscope. My TDS210 still works, but the data record length is laughable by today's standards. And only 2 channels as well.
Massive step up from a TDS210 and great you already have DSO experience.  :)
I'm sure you'll love your new X-E.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gege34 on February 07, 2019, 09:36:55 pm
M'y scope (1104) is on power strip with a switch. And I switch it off when I doesn't need it for a long time.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on February 07, 2019, 09:43:50 pm
I didn´t care that much of it, although I never understand why using a soft-button for power on/off....
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on February 09, 2019, 10:24:14 am
Follow up on the SAG1021, Its Capable of a 6V amplitude, with a +-7V offset range, sadly its limited by the output op amp (u8), to +-4V max output before it clips, If one wanted to, they could replace the output op amp to get to +-5V, or replace and increase the supply rails to get the output to +-10V range with the same 6V amplitude limit. with no significant software changes being required, apart from the XML tag on the scope that tells the UI the min and max offset limits.

Also there is a 16 bit 1MHz Texas Instruments on the board that I cannot understand the purpose of, just generates a 7.5KHz square wave that drops off in amplitude when set to DC output.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tinhead on February 10, 2019, 01:25:59 am
Follow up on the SAG1021

after deeper look one can see, it is SDG1010/25/50,  but with one channel and yeah different FPGA.


Also there is a 16 bit 1MHz Texas Instruments on the board that I cannot understand the purpose of, just generates a 7.5KHz square wave that drops off in amplitude when set to DC output.

on SDG1010/25/50 that TI DAC is connected to 4051 common input and from there "everywhere", all 8 outputs are used. On SAG1021 however exact the same, TI DAC to 4051, but only two outputs are used, both then buffered by TP1272 and then middle of the relais field. Whatever this circuit id doing - and there are other interesting things like resistor-jumpers here and there, i'm to lazy to reverse it, for now i think i will dump everything first.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on February 14, 2019, 12:14:21 am
I initally assumed that it would be possible to use all four channels to get two "poor mans differential probes", but after some research, I discovered that there is only one maths channel. That's a bummer, as I had hoped to use this technique to measure both H-bridges of a stepper driver simultaneously. I know this technique isn't exactly stellar on a modern DSO (as Performa01's review shows), but I think it would have been sufficent for this purpose.

Doing advanced math (like multiple FFTs or such) is clearly way too demanding, but something as simple as adding/subtracting two channel pairs would be entirely feasible. However, I doubt Siglent will be inclined to add something like this to the firmware. It isn't something that is often needed, I guess.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on February 23, 2019, 11:39:48 am
My 1104X-E arrived this week, and I've just played around a little with it. First impression is quite good, it was surprisingly heavy and appears quite well built. The probes doesn't have the same quality feel as the scope itself, though. The fan is unfortunately louder than I had hoped. It has no whine or anything (thankfully), it's just that it is quite loud.

I still wish it had two maths channels though, since that would allow usage of all four channels to function as two "poor mans differential probes". Adding that to the frmware would clearly be possible, but Siglent probably doesn't care.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on February 23, 2019, 12:10:34 pm
Quote
Adding that to the frmware would clearly be possible, but Siglent probably doesn't care.

Find it out... ;)

Ask them about it, if nobody ask for it....
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on February 25, 2019, 12:05:54 am
@Martin72: I've posted the question to the thread that Siglent support supposedly monitors.

But now I have a different question: On my brand new scope (SDS1104X-E) , if I short the probes and look at the measured DC voltage, it appears that especially on the 2V/div range there is a DC offset that is higher than I'd expect. On channel 1 for instance, it is around -125 mV, which I think is a bit too much. It is enough that you can clearly see that the trace is offset from the vertical position markers. The other channels are a little better, but all have a negative offset of more than 80 mV.

The other ranges seems to be a lot better, so why is the 2V/div range so "bad"? On my old Tek TDS210 I'm seeing around 15-20 mV (in this range), which is more in line with what I'd expect.

I've also tried running a self calibration, (which actually did improve the situation, because before doing that it was even worse). Am I just expecting too much here?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on February 25, 2019, 12:13:01 am
Did you run the self calibration with the probes unplugged. The self calibration works by setting the channel offset dac. Measuring the voltage and using that to figure out the 0 point and gain for all gain and attenuation steps. If you have probes plugged in at the time that will cause some errors.

Equally is the offset the same on different ranges. E.g the 500uV range.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on February 25, 2019, 12:17:33 am
Yes, I unplugged all the probes before running the self calibration. I'll run it again and see if it changes anything.

Not sure I understood your last sentence. Did you mean that the offset should read about the same on all ranges?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 25, 2019, 12:19:50 am
@Martin72: I've posted the question to the thread that Siglent support supposedly monitors.

But now I have a different question: On my brand new scope (SDS1104X-E) , if I short the probes and look at the measured DC voltage, it appears that especially on the 2V/div range there is a DC offset that is higher than I'd expect. On channel 1 for instance, it is around -125 mV, which I think is a bit too much. It is enough that you can clearly see that the trace is offset from the vertical position markers. The other channels are a little better, but all have a negative offset of more than 80 mV.

The other ranges seems to be a lot better, so why is the 2V/div range so "bad"? On my old Tek TDS210 I'm seeing around 15-20 mV (in this range), which is more in line with what I'd expect.

I've also tried running a self calibration, (which actually did improve the situation, because before doing that it was even worse). Am I just expecting too much here?
What Rerouter said plus be sure to have it running for ~30 minutes before Self Cal. After which if running latest FW you can have the Quick Cal turned ON to take care of any little temp drift issues.

Let us know if all that works as it should for you please.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on February 25, 2019, 12:45:01 am
I've had it running for more than an hour now:

Code: [Select]
/ # uptime
 01:12:12 up  1:12,  0 users,  load average: 2.13, 1.53, 1.41

And I've ran the self calibration twice in the last 10 minutes. Seems to change a little between each run, but still quite a bit more offset than I'm happy with. The "Quick Cal" is on by default, and the scope came with the latest firmware (and it's hardware version 04). It was calibrated at the factory in December 2018.

After the last self calibration, it still shows an offset of around -120 mV, as can be seen here:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=661596)

I'm using averaging (in the Acquire menu) to more cleanly show the offset here.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 25, 2019, 12:55:22 am
I've had it running for more than an hour now:

Code: [Select]
/ # uptime
 01:12:12 up  1:12,  0 users,  load average: 2.13, 1.53, 1.41

And I've ran the self calibration twice in the last 10 minutes. Seems to change a little between each run, but still quite a bit more offset than I'm happy with. The "Quick Cal" is on by default, and the scope came with the latest firmware (and it's hardware version 04). It was calibrated at the factory in December 2018.

After the last self calibration, it still shows an offset of around -120 mV, as can be seen here:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=661596)

I'm using averaging (in the Acquire menu) to more cleanly show the offset here.
OK, thanks.
I'll shoot tech support an email to make them aware of this.....maybe they have a new firmware in the making to address this offset.

One other thing, is your lab low on EMI noise.....just in case it's effecting the Self Cal could you run it again in another room please ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on February 25, 2019, 12:57:43 am
Ok. Now i understand better. Your running up against the limitations of the ADC in the scope. 2V/div is 16V over 256 steps is 62.5mV per step. Or about 2 steps offset.

I did not yet work out the exact mapping of the offset dac. It should be able to trim in better than that

For curiousity open the web interface and send the query C1:DACC? You will get a 4 or 5 digit number back. Add about 30 to the number and send back the command "C1:DACC number" and see if you can trim it back to be dead on the 0 line.

Equally does the offset change between scope probe connected and disconnected.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on February 25, 2019, 01:10:48 am
@tautech: My lab has a few cellular units running that can cause some EMI, but if that was it, shouldn't the other ranges be affected as well? It seems only the 2V/div range has serious issues. I will however rerun the self cal in a different room and report back, as you requested.

@Rerouter: The number I got back from the DACC command was 9811, and by changing it to 9807, I got the offset to become around +7 mV instead of -120 mV, so a massive improvement. The value doesn't stick, though. If I change to a different range and then back to 2V/div, the DACC value also returns to what it was.

I guess that means the self calibration routine might not do a good enough job?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on February 25, 2019, 01:16:35 am
The only exact way i can phrase it is later firmware versions may tweak it.

The offset should be fairly consistant between attenuator relay steps. As that is when the offset dac changes range aswell

There is already some quirks on the fine gain. This may just be related. I suspect its using an immidiate value and not a average for the offset calibration steps.

Any change with the pribe plugged vs unplugged
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on February 25, 2019, 01:28:27 am
No change between no probe and with (shorted) probe connected.
And I've also re-run the self cal in a different room now, but nothing changed.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on February 25, 2019, 01:31:17 am
And lastly. With the coupling set to ground. Do they read better or worse (suspicious procedure may have changed)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 25, 2019, 01:37:33 am
@tautech: My lab has a few cellular units running that can cause some EMI, but if that was it, shouldn't the other ranges be affected as well?
Dunno, we will hand it over to the product manager at the factory soon.

Quote
It seems only the 2V/div range has serious issues. I will however rerun the self cal in a different room and report back, as you requested.
Thanks
And I've also re-run the self cal in a different room now, but nothing changed.
Thanks again.
Quote
I guess that means the self calibration routine might not do a good enough job?
Maybe, the firmware of the Self Cal has been optimized before in an older FW version. A component change or something minor may have mucked the Self Cal up, they can have a look at it and find a solution.

Look, by bringing this up you are effectively on record as having reported it so if there is a problem with just your unit it will get sorted sooner or later, one way or another.
For now just use it and lets see what the factory works out about it.


Thanks Rerouter for helping us dig deeper into this.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on February 25, 2019, 01:47:01 am
And lastly. With the coupling set to ground. Do they read better or worse (suspicious procedure may have changed)
If I set the coupling to ground, the offset goes to around +10 mV. Go figure...

Now I need to sleep (it's nearly 3 am here), but I can try other tests tomorrow if need be.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: lordvader88 on February 25, 2019, 10:07:50 am
My heart is set on 4-ch 200MHz or more scope by the end of the Summer, so I'm budgeting for the SDS1204

Sorry for asking again, but are lot's of people hacking the 100MHz version to the 200MHz without any problems ? There's a big price diff for me.

I want a 4-ch scope, but I don't want to settle for 50-70-100MHz like the nice Rigol's. I want to be higher than that level, as my "base" scope. And then some day I'll save up for a 2-ch thats a lot faster than my base scope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on February 25, 2019, 11:08:56 am
still no issues as of the latest known firmware,

To tautech, I would like to find out what causes GND coupling and DC coupling to have an offset, I'm assuming its hardware (resistor tolerance or something like that), Any chance of some pointers from the factory? e.g. the component references that are suspect.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on February 25, 2019, 12:04:34 pm
It appears the offsets are all over the place on my scope. I just did a new warm-up and self calibration, and then recorded all the offsets for all the channels, and here's what I got:

*Channel 1Channel 2Channel 3Channel 4
5 mV/div-837.58 μV-1.79 mV-5.24 mV-553.21 μV
10 mV/div-1.17 mV-2.83 mV-6.25 mV-751.54 μV
20 mV/div-1.50 mV-3.20 mV-6.40 mV-1.31 mV
50 mV/div-3.74 mV-4.00 mV-4.31 mV0.0 pV
100 mV/div0.0 pV-4.00 mV-4.19 mV-4.00 mV
200 mV/div-8.00 mV-45.71 nV0.0 pV-8.00 mV
500 mV/div-6.34 mV-6.83 μV-114.29 nV-15.43 mV
1 V/div-4.21 mV0.0 pV0.0 pV-649.60 μV
2 V/div-159.94 mV150.17 μV-616.46 μV0.0 pV
5 V/div-185.12 mV-47.52 mV-20.29 μV-28.29 μV
10 V/div-392.78 mV0.0 pV0.0 pV0.0 pV
20 V/div-1.56 V85.96 mV25.14 μV-8.00 μV
50 V/div-2.86 μV0.0 pV-91.43 μV-148.57 μV
100 V/div-776.38 mV0.0 pV-3.42 mV-1.17 mV

Probes was connected and shorted, but it doesn't really matter if they're disconnected either. I used averaging in the acquire menu as well, to smooth out the values as much as possible. Despite this, I also observed some unexplainable large jumps in the mean values, but this table is made from a snapshot I made on each setting. I've also attached these snapshots to this post.

If this is indeed to be expected, then I am quite disappointed. I know this is a low end scope, but at least I would expect it to be able to zero out these DC offsets to acceptable levels. My OCD does kick in when I observe the trace being far off from the zero position when there is no signal.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 25, 2019, 12:28:15 pm
Not heard from factory yet but some thought has me look at the datasheet spec and for old posts.

Offset Accuracy
±(1%* Offset+1.5%*8*div+2 mV): ≥2 mV/div
±(1%* Offset+1.5%*8*div+500 uV): ≤1 mv/div

Further explanation about this is here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1138775/#msg1138775 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1138775/#msg1138775)

Simply, in 10X input attenuation mode, the displayed offset is 10x worse than it really is, so we see it reduce to very low #'s as the V/div is increased.
Try 1x input attenuation to check if it meets specification and with input to BNC short. (0 ohm)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on February 25, 2019, 12:44:16 pm
Changing the attenuation to 1X doesn't really do anything to improve the situation. The range automatically changes from 2V/div to 200 mV/div when I go from 10X to 1X, but if I re-adjust the range back to 2V/div, I observe the same large offset (on channel 1) of around -160 mV.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 25, 2019, 01:15:46 pm
Changing the attenuation to 1X doesn't really do anything to improve the situation. The range automatically changes from 2V/div to 200 mV/div when I go from 10X to 1X, but if I re-adjust the range back to 2V/div, I observe the same large offset (on channel 1) of around -160 mV.
Which aligns closely to screenshot #12, 1.56V @ 20V/div.

Let's see what the factory says.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on February 25, 2019, 03:01:47 pm
My heart is set on 4-ch 200MHz or more scope by the end of the Summer, so I'm budgeting for the SDS1204

Sorry for asking again, but are lot's of people hacking the 100MHz version to the 200MHz without any problems ? There's a big price diff for me.

I want a 4-ch scope, but I don't want to settle for 50-70-100MHz like the nice Rigol's. I want to be higher than that level, as my "base" scope. And then some day I'll save up for a 2-ch thats a lot faster than my base scope.

lordvader88, there aren't any problems after performing the hack.  If calibration certification isn't an issue for you, you can save a lot of money by getting the SDS1104X-E.  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: lordvader88 on February 25, 2019, 03:28:18 pm
Yeah and another member PM'ed me about it too, and the 1104 is 200-300USD less here, so I could get 1 around June if I keep my party money to a minimum.

Excellent. Having a nice modern, small, quiet, fast, 4ch scope will be a big step up from my current scopes. The only thing I don't like about these and similar scopes, is the LCD resolution is low, so some stuff looks jaggie.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ian.ameline on February 26, 2019, 01:28:25 am
My heart is set on 4-ch 200MHz or more scope by the end of the Summer, so I'm budgeting for the SDS1204

Sorry for asking again, but are lot's of people hacking the 100MHz version to the 200MHz without any problems ? There's a big price diff for me.

I want a 4-ch scope, but I don't want to settle for 50-70-100MHz like the nice Rigol's. I want to be higher than that level, as my "base" scope. And then some day I'll save up for a 2-ch thats a lot faster than my base scope.

It is super easy to hack to 200Mhz - no problems at all, other than the probes, which others have shown to be a non-issue.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: lordvader88 on February 26, 2019, 03:01:34 am
Wait a minute, the SDS1104 only has the single 1GS/s ADC , but the SDS1204 has 2 of them ? Is the memory and the rest of it the same ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on February 26, 2019, 04:48:20 am
Sds1104 and sds1204 both have 2x 1GSPS ADC.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 26, 2019, 06:21:53 am
Wait a minute, the SDS1104 only has the single 1GS/s ADC , but the SDS1204 has 2 of them ? Is the memory and the rest of it the same ?
SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E both have dual 1 GSa/s ADC's and 14 Mpts of memory serving each.
Four channels used allows for 500MSa/s and 7 Mpts per channel whereas only using 2 channels and with each on an ADC, 1 GSa/s and 14 Mpts are available.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on February 26, 2019, 10:55:50 am
@tautech: You haven't heard back from the factory yet, right?

I'm a bit ashamed to admit, but I'm having trouble reading the specification for DC offset accuracy in the datasheet, which states:

Quote from: Siglent datasheet
±(1%* Offset+1.5%*8*div+2 mV): ≥2 mV/div
±(1%* Offset+1.5%*8*div+500 uV): ≤1 mv/div

I don't fully understand how to calculate the maximum permissible DC offset, for example for the 2V/div range (which is: ±(1%* Offset+1.5%*8*div+2 mV)) . Could someone enlighten me? When the channel is shorted, the input signal is 0 V, does that mean the offset should not exceed 2 mV?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: radiolistener on February 26, 2019, 02:41:52 pm
The only exact way i can phrase it is later firmware versions may tweak it.

Thats possible. I'm using old model SDS1102X and when I flashed firmware to the latest version, I got unexpected result.
Usually I'm using oscilloscope for spectrum analysis, by recording large raw sequence and then processing it with FFT on the PC. I'm using FFT with 1-4 million points, so it very sensitive. With latest firmware I got a lot of distortions.
It was below -80 dB, so in the time domain the difference is not significant.

Here is firmaware 2.13R5 (which works good):
(https://i.imgur.com/q9vEd0X.png)

And here is firmware 2.15R10:
(https://i.imgur.com/5mmDJnO.png)

But in the frequency domain it looks much worse:
(https://i.imgur.com/YFIxVlc.png)

I'm not sure why it happens, but these artifacts was added at the time when Siglent released new X-E model. So, I think they both may share the same signal processing algorithm.
After all, I didn't find the way to fix it and since I need clean spectrum, I rollback to the old 2.13R5 firmware. It helps and distortions disappears  :)

So, the firmware change may lead to significant change in measurement results.
It will be very interest if someone can check if this issue exists on X-E model with latest firmware.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on February 26, 2019, 03:52:00 pm

That is good information. Could you please tell me what software is that ?

Regards,
Siniša
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bugi on February 26, 2019, 06:25:54 pm
I'm not sure why it happens, but these artifacts was added at the time when Siglent released new X-E model. So, I think they both may share the same signal processing algorithm.
Not only those marked large bumps, but the whole noise floor seems to have smaller bumbs, and lifted in general by about 10dB. Assuming that the measurements between versions were otherwise fully comparable, and that my mind is not tricking me to see those smaller "bumps" in the noise.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bugi on February 26, 2019, 06:45:32 pm
I'm a bit ashamed to admit, but I'm having trouble reading the specification for DC offset accuracy in the datasheet, which states:

Quote from: Siglent datasheet
±(1%* Offset+1.5%*8*div+2 mV): ≥2 mV/div
±(1%* Offset+1.5%*8*div+500 uV): ≤1 mv/div

I don't fully understand how to calculate the maximum permissible DC offset, for example for the 2V/div range (which is: ±(1%* Offset+1.5%*8*div+2 mV)) . Could someone enlighten me? When the channel is shorted, the input signal is 0 V, does that mean the offset should not exceed 2 mV?
Not a pro here, but... replace the "Offset" with current offset (position) value, and the "div" with current volts/div (gain/sensitivity) value. So, when checking calibration with 2V/div and zero offset, the value would be ±(1%*0V + 1.5%*8*2V + 2mV), or about ±242mV. That would be the range of where the offset error should stay within (with those particular settings). If I estimated things right in my head, that corresponds to about 6 LSBs.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on February 26, 2019, 08:59:51 pm
@bugi: Thanks, that makes sense. And if that's indeed correct, then my ~ -120 mV is well within spec, even if it triggers my OCD to see that the trace is clearly separated from the zero position marker. I'm not used to that with my old TDS210, where the trace seems to always align pretty close to the position marker.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tinhead on February 26, 2019, 09:29:14 pm
trace is clearly separated from the zero position marker.

check PM

EDIT: i got beta firmware and was hoping it will help him, but it was not the case
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on February 28, 2019, 11:50:38 pm
The beta I got from tinhead did seem to change the problem a little. It appears to improve on the self calibration in some ranges (so my 2V/div range is now quite OK), and worsen it in the high sensitivity ranges.

I now have a different question. There seems to be some visual artifact at the point where the trigger is. Take a look at the following screenshot, where I am just feeding in a DC voltage (around 7.5 V) to channel 1, and with the channel in AC coupling and at 10 mV/div:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=664506)

In the center of the screen, there's a very visual notch/stair in the waveform, just at the trigger level. Is this to be expected? I can't really understand why, but it does appear to be just a visual artifact. For the record, I can input a single clean sine from a function generator, and the notch is visible also in that scenario.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on March 01, 2019, 05:32:11 am


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=664506)

In the center of the screen, there's a very visual notch/stair in the waveform, just at the trigger level. Is this to be expected? I can't really understand why, but it does appear to be just a visual artifact.

This is normal (and visual effect is normal with noisy signal). One TFT frame image you have perhaps (depending case) tens or even thousands of "horizontal sweeps" aka acquistions overlaid. (example if true wfm/s is around 25000 then every TFT frame have around 1000 waveform ("horizontal sweeps") overlaid. Every single horizontal sweep need adjust as exactly to trigger time position as possible including also "fine interpolation" (what is not main reason in this case, due to t/div and samplerate). After last acquistion there is some blind time and after then it do least fixed length pre trigger acquistion and after then it start waiting trigger and after trigger it continue to rest acquistion up to max length. And this acquistion is also horiozontally fine positioned so that trigger position is exactly in trigger time position. (here center of screen)

You can also look it more. Stop scope after running some time and turn on History and then look every separate acquisitions or run history more fast.  Also you can watch it running scope normally but switch acquistion mode Fast or Slow. In Slow mode one TFT frame show only one horizontal acquisition. To fully explain how it all works need write one book. But I think it can understand enough without going more deep what happen there. Only need know, it works just ok. If it do not this then we can think trigger engine is poor.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=664632;image)
Here this "notch/stair"
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: n3mmr on March 01, 2019, 12:51:01 pm
What i was after was a command that would put it in a bode plot mode with the parameters exposed so I could set the center, span, etc via scpi,
Officially; Bode plot SCPI command set: totally unsupported at this time.

Rerouter would like it, please raise hands who else.

 :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on March 01, 2019, 01:12:03 pm
@rf-loop: Thanks for taking the time to write down that explanation. As I wrote, I thought it was just a visual effect, and you explained why.

I have yet another question on the offset issue. On my scope, the offset is different for each coupling type (DC/AC or GND). Ideally, the offset should be zero for any coupling (when there is no input signal), and even if it may not be a real problem, it would have felt better to see that the offsets was zero. Some channels are "better" than others, though.

I guess there are many owners of this scope that reads this thread, and I am curious if this is normal for this model.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tinhead on March 01, 2019, 01:52:40 pm
I am curious if this is normal for this model.

actually it might depend on model, hw revision, etc., i do have same hw as yours, so let me check later what results are on my SDS

EDIT: yep, that seems to be model specific thing, tested with various settings (but always inputs set to 20MHz and GND, x1, hw1.4), i can get always on some channel 0V and on other some uV offset, worst case was 199uV for CH3 at 1mv/DIV. The good news, with increasing DIV/sec (from 20mv/DIV) it remains low in compare to DIV setting (e.g. 550uV for CH3 at 100mV), 0->0,25%->0,5% of DIV/sec setting, so can be ignored. For the 500uV it is on my SDS better as with 1mV/DIV, 2mv/DIV and 5mv/DIV are "equally bad" on some channels and differs on others (e.g. 200uV at 2mV/DIV, and 200uV at 5mV/DIV).

For DC/AC offsets, they of course depends on environment noise, coupling, DIV setting, so it does not matter to compare anything.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on March 06, 2019, 04:07:48 pm
@tinhead: Thanks for confirming this. I guess it's normal with these scopes, then. I was also able to get the self calibration a bit better on mine, by wrapping some aluminium foil over the inputs to shield them from EMI. After discovering this, I also created some 3D-printed BNC caps which has a spring loaded plate (with aluminium foil on it), that closes the opening of the BNC.

Other than that, today my scope crashed. The UI became unresponsive, but the trace was still "alive". I could connect to the internal web server in the scope, and I could spin up a telnet daemon to connect to it as well. From there I rebooted it, and it came back up as normal. I didn't try the power button while it was in this state, so I don't know if that would have responded.

Having it crash isn't very confidence inspiring, and it was obviously the scope app itself that crashed, as the kernel was still running. It was a bit sluggish, though. The web server loaded very slowly, and the telnet command line was also pretty slow. Unfortunately I didn't look at the CPU usage before rebooting, so I can't say which process(es) was eating CPU time.

If this happens again, is there something useful to be saved out and sent to Siglent for debug? I didn't think to preserve the system logs either, unfortunately.

I also found something about the FFT that I don't really understand, so I'll try to recreate that situation and ask if it's just me, or if it's actually not expected behaviour.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on March 06, 2019, 08:31:55 pm
It should not have been the system app that crashed. As the scpi interpriter goes down when the system app locks up.

Cant say exactly what happened. But i can confirm there are a number of commands that can cause a soft lock. Power button for 7 seconds causes a forced shutdown of the psu. And aslong as you have not remounted things to read/write there is no harm in this.

The only way to actually see what the error messages are to my own understanding is to have first closed and then reopened the main application. It will then give debug errors each time something happens.

Other than that. Any clue where you where when it became unresponsive. Personally it almost sounds like the keyboard comms stopped working (has its own micro from memory)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on March 06, 2019, 09:05:52 pm
Ok, if the main app is responsible for the SCPI comms, then I agree that it must have been something else that crashed.
I was doing some FFT analysis when it crashed, and the exact point was when I went to change the memory depth in the acquire menu. I think the scope was in the stop state, and the waveform was possibly zoomed in a bit. The crash happened immediately when I selected a different (smaller, I think) memory depth.

Oh, and the FFT issue I mentioned in my last post was entirely my own fault. I used settings that could not give me the results I was expecting.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on March 07, 2019, 12:55:29 pm
Ok, my scope is back in a bad place... It appears to be in a similar situation as I described earlier, but I'm not sure it is actually a crash. Turns out it does respond to buttons, it's just EXTREMELY sluggish, and it takes several seconds for anything to happen.

I've connected to it by telnet (using SCPI to spin up a telnetd), and here's what top shows:

Code: [Select]
Mem: 107104K used, 129592K free, 0K shrd, 4294967295K buff, 5K cached
CPU:  5.2% usr  1.6% sys  0.0% nic 93.0% idle  0.0% io  0.0% irq  0.1% sirq
Load average: 1.09 1.03 0.67 3/83 14408
  PID  PPID USER     STAT   VSZ %VSZ CPU %CPU COMMAND
  797     1 root     S     370m159.8   1  6.7 /usr/bin/siglent/sds1000b.app
  798     1 root     S    20224  8.5   0  0.0 /usr/bin/siglent/vncserver
14364 11198 root     R     3152  1.3   0  0.0 top
27390     2 root     SW       0  0.0   0  0.0 [kworker/0:1]
  923     2 root     SW       0  0.0   0  0.0 [RTW_CMD_THREAD]
   10     2 root     SW       0  0.0   0  0.0 [migration/0]
  817   811 root     S    13132  5.5   0  0.0 /usr/bin/php-cgi
  811   809 root     S    13048  5.5   0  0.0 /usr/bin/php-cgi
  922     1 root     S     5032  2.1   0  0.0 wpa_supplicant -Dnl80211,wext -iwlan0 -C/usr/bin/siglent/usr/wifi/wpa_supplicant -c/usr/bin/siglent/usr/wifi/wpa.conf
11151     1 root     S     3236  1.3   1  0.0 telnetd -l/bin/sh -p9999
11198 11151 root     S     3152  1.3   0  0.0 /bin/sh
  813     1 root     S     3152  1.3   0  0.0 -/bin/ash
    1     0 root     S     3148  1.3   1  0.0 {linuxrc} init
  809     1 root     S     2668  1.1   0  0.0 /usr/sbin/lighttpd -f /etc/lighttpd.conf
  796     1 1        S     2096  0.8   1  0.0 portmap
 9624     2 root     SW       0  0.0   1  0.0 [kworker/1:1]
    7     2 root     SW       0  0.0   1  0.0 [rcu_preempt]
    3     2 root     SW       0  0.0   0  0.0 [ksoftirqd/0]
   11     2 root     SW       0  0.0   1  0.0 [migration/1]
   12     2 root     SW       0  0.0   1  0.0 [ksoftirqd/1]
  503     2 root     SW       0  0.0   1  0.0 [spi32765]
   17     2 root     SW       0  0.0   1  0.0 [kworker/u4:1]
  652     2 root     SW<      0  0.0   0  0.0 [kworker/0:1H]
  653     2 root     SW<      0  0.0   1  0.0 [kworker/1:1H]
  673     2 root     SW       0  0.0   0  0.0 [ubi_bgt0d]
  684     2 root     SW       0  0.0   1  0.0 [ubi_bgt1d]
    2     0 root     SW       0  0.0   1  0.0 [kthreadd]
    5     2 root     SW<      0  0.0   0  0.0 [kworker/0:0H]
    8     2 root     SW       0  0.0   0  0.0 [rcu_sched]
    9     2 root     SW       0  0.0   0  0.0 [rcu_bh]
   14     2 root     SW<      0  0.0   1  0.0 [kworker/1:0H]
   15     2 root     SW<      0  0.0   1  0.0 [khelper]
   16     2 root     SW       0  0.0   0  0.0 [kdevtmpfs]
   19     2 root     SW<      0  0.0   0  0.0 [perf]
  258     2 root     SW<      0  0.0   0  0.0 [writeback]
  262     2 root     SW<      0  0.0   1  0.0 [crypto]
  263     2 root     SW<      0  0.0   0  0.0 [bioset]
  265     2 root     SW<      0  0.0   1  0.0 [kblockd]
  294     2 root     SW<      0  0.0   0  0.0 [edac-poller]

I can't really see anything standing out, the load appears reasonable, and there's lots of free memory.

Then I checked dmesg, and it's filling up with this error message:

Code: [Select]
[ 6583.202520] DMA timed out
[ 6587.292521] DMA timed out
[ 6591.382523] DMA timed out
[ 6595.482523] DMA timed out
[ 6599.572518] DMA timed out
[ 6603.662519] DMA timed out
[ 6607.752520] DMA timed out
[ 6611.842607] DMA timed out
[ 6615.922520] DMA timed out
[ 6620.012531] DMA timed out

I'll just have to reboot it now, but again I suspect this happened due to me using the FFT feature.

Edit to add:
After rebooting, and checking top again, it turns out that the main scope application should use quite a bit of CPU, it seems to hover around 40% most of the time. So my posted output from top is actually not normal in the sense that the scope app uses less CPU than normal. Probably due to the DMA problem.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on March 07, 2019, 01:12:57 pm
So the CPU is almost Idle, but the FFT is throttling, does winding down the settings of the FFT before you start it help or hurt?

(My assumption is FFT is on the FPGA as large memory FFT's are expensive even on an ARM core)

Out of curiosity, could you kill the sds1000b.app and open its file, (not as a separate process), I'm curious if it gives any additional information when it starts hanging.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on March 07, 2019, 01:17:49 pm
I'll try to recreate the situation a bit later, if I can. What do you mean by winding down the FFT settings before starting? Starting what?
And yes, if I can get it back into this situation, I'll try killing the sds1000b.app, and then starting that manually in the foreground. I suppose that's what you meant?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on March 08, 2019, 04:52:47 pm
I've been trying to get it to fail/crash (again) by retracing my steps, but so far I haven't been able to.

However, I found another bug, which I guess no one else has noticed (which is no wonder, since it's rather obscure). I'm using a wifi adapter in mine (the standard TP-Link one), and it's connected to my wifi and working fine. However, I decided I wanted to see if the scope tries to connect outside my network (typically doing the "phone home" dance), so I started a packet trace on my router.

Well, it doesn't try to connect to the outside, but it sends DHCP requests about once a second. That's just dumb, and obviously a bug. It doesn't care about the lease time it gets in the DHCP offer (12 hours in my case), and just continues to spew out the requests. To avoid this, it is necessary to disable DHCP in the scope, and just set a static IP instead. Which I don't really like, even if it's not a big deal.

I haven't checked if the same happens with wired ethernet, though.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tinhead on March 08, 2019, 08:01:19 pm
... it crashed
... it sends DHCP requests

this might be however related to the beta firmware, i would say install the latest official firmware and check how it works.

EDIT: hint: i did it as well, because in my case SAG1021 was playing crazy with that beta, with the latest official no issues
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on March 08, 2019, 09:02:59 pm
Yes, I guess I could try going back to the official release. Are there any known issues with downgrading?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mroek on March 08, 2019, 10:20:45 pm
I did the downgrade back to the official version, didn't have any specific issues, except the self calibration that is somewhat worse.

And the DHCP bug (at least for wifi) is still there. As long as it is enabled, it badgers the DHCP server constantly.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Max2018 on March 10, 2019, 04:47:34 am
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Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 10, 2019, 09:10:10 am
Since where are here talking about bugs: the trigger channel label updates itself only after switching to a different menu.
If you please, when reporting any suspected bug, please include the firmware version used.

I've checked my SDS1104X-E with FW version 6.1.26 and I see no indication of any problem with values in the trigger channel labeling.
Please offer better/more info so this issue can be replicated at the factory for correction in future firmware.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 10, 2019, 09:42:31 am
@tautech Does not annoy me enough to download new firmware or properly report it. Installed version is the fist one with the file format Version 2.0 released around July/August 2018.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/yWBrk9XO0_E (https://www.youtube.com/embed/yWBrk9XO0_E)   (Not the best video quality but this due to the blackberry camera.)
Last/current FW was 2018-09-26; V6.1.26

Your video link doesn't work.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Lazyengineer on April 02, 2019, 03:49:41 pm
Sorry for bringing up the bandwidth topic up again in this thread. However, based on previous posts in this thread there is still something technical that is bothering me in regards to the mod200.
I measured the BW of the scope before and after the mod200 and get similar results (see graph below).

As you can see, the mod200 BW is way to wide to suppress aliasing. In 2-CH (per ADC) mode (500MB/s sample-rate) the Nyquist is at 250MHz where the input attenuation is only 2dB. In 1-CH (per ADC) mode (1Gb/s) the alias frequency is 500MHz and attenuation only about 17dB.

In original state (no mod) I do not see aliasing problems at 250MHz nor 500Mhz due to attenuation being >>20dB.
The original state (no mod) must have an input hardware LPF. But that seems to get switched off completely in mod200 state. If the original state (no mod) would have been simply a more narrow-band DSP filtering then I would see aliasing during tests, which I don’t.

So, how can one say that the scope can work as a normal 200MHz scope? Shouldn’t a decent scope have an input hardware low-pass filter that suppresses aliases? Does anyone have attenuation measurements of a true SDS1204X-E if that operates the same as mod200?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=694278]https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=694278)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on April 02, 2019, 04:27:55 pm
So, how can one say that the scope can work as a normal 200MHz scope? Shouldn’t a decent scope have an input hardware low-pass filter that suppresses aliases? Does anyone have attenuation measurements of a true SDS1204X-E if that operates the same as mod200?

I think there have been plenty of comparisons throughout the years.

What you should ask is for a guy with a SDS12000X-E to license it to 100MHz and analyse it's behavior. That would finally clear if the HW (100/200MHz) is the same or not.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: gamerpaddy on April 02, 2019, 11:54:34 pm
@mroek
I had this issue aswell, did some logic analyzer stuff and turned it off / plugged out. a month later, plugged it back in and bootup.  buttons respond very delayed, nothing really useable.
reboot didnt fix it but a quick hit on the default button fixed it immediately.
 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Lazyengineer on April 07, 2019, 12:29:08 pm
@tv84: Thanks for the feedback.
Let me add some more context to my question:

rf-loop did some initial frequency response measurements of the SDS1104X-E in Reply# 808
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1623214/#msg1623214]http:// [url]https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1623214/#msg1623214 (http:// [url)[/url]

Performa01 in Reply# 817 followed up with the measurements for a real SDS1202X-E confirming the similar response compared to a mod200 SDS1104.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1624003/#msg1624003]http:// [url]https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1624003/#msg1624003 (http:// [url)[/url]
I am also presuming that the SDS1202X-E has the same front-end as the SDS1204X-E.

In Reply# 829 rf-loop added some great alias tests and confirms by the graphs that the mod200 of the SDS1104X-E does not have much alias rejection.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1635386/#msg1635386 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1635386/#msg1635386)
But the measurements were limited to 500MHz. I was very curious about alias response above 500MHz to see if there is a decent pre-ADC low-pass.
Thus, I did pretty much the same frequency measurements as in Reply# 829 but swept up to 1GHz.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=698745)

Figure 1:
The graph shows the Frequency response from 5MHz to 1000MHz of the SDS1104X-E using the 2/4-Channels switched to 500MBs. I used the FFT-Mode (MATCH) and put the results into Excel.
The green X-Axis arrows below shows the actual Oscilloscope frequencies (the frequency that the scope shows).
I divided the measurements into four sections (5-250MHz, 250-500MHz,500-750MHz. 750MHz-1000MHz) and patched each Scope-reading (0-250MHz) into the one graph. I flipped the x-Axis of the sections 250MHz-500MHz and 750MHz-1000GHz because an RF input of 251MHz maps to an alias frequency at the scope reading of 249MHz etc.. 

The blue curve shows the original  SDS1104 (out of the box) frequency response from 5MHz to 1000MHz. You can see additional rejection above 100MHz which mirrors  at the Nyquist frequency of 250MHz and 750MHz. Because the rejection mirrors at Nyquiwst, it must be a DSP filter (not only the RF inputs mirror at Nyquist, but also any internal DSP filter).
The red curve shows the response after applying the mod200 software change for frequency extension to 200MHz. Since that response shows no mirror-effects (it falls monotonically) there cannot be any DSP filter applied. The rate at which the response includes any filtering applied to prior to the ADC. Because the blue and red curve align, except for the DSP-filter, I am presuming that nothing is switched in the hardware when applying the mod200 software change. Since the red curve resembles earlier measurements of the SDS1202 (Performa01 in Reply# 817), it kind of proves that the hardware is identical between SDS1104 and SDS1204.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=698751)

Figure 2:
The graph shows the Frequency response from 5MHz to 1000MHz of the SDS1104X-E using the 2/4-Channels switched to 1GBs. I divided the measurements in two sections (5-500MHz, 500MHz-1000MHz) and patched each Scope-reading (0-500MHz) into the one graph. I flipped the x-Axis of the section 500MHz-1000GHz.
The blue curve shows the original  SDS1104 (out of the box) frequency response from 5MHz to 1000MHz. You can see the great rejection above 100MHz which mirrors  at the Nyquist frequency of 500MHz.
The red curve shows the response after applying the mod200 software change for frequency extension to 200MHz. Since that response simply falls monotonically there can’t be any DSP filter applied. Because the blue and red curve align, except for the DSP-filter, I am presuming that nothing is switched in the hardware when applying the mod200 software change.

Conclusions:

But I am still stuck with my earlier question: Why is the alias frequency rejection of the 200MHz mode so bad? I am not sure if a better (steeper) hardware LPF filter could be designed to reject at least the 500MHz better.
And more importantly: why don’t they not even apply DSP filtering at 1GB/S sample-rate to the SDS1204 (SDS1104 with mod200)?? At 1GB/s sample rate they could have applied the same DSP filter as for the SDS1004 in 500MB/s mode. I would presume that this does not even need a hardware change. What am I missing? What are other Oscilloscopes doing?


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on April 19, 2019, 09:48:41 pm
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/using-a-awg-and-a-scope-do-a-low-voltage-level-characterization-of-a-1n4005/msg2354547/#msg2354547 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/using-a-awg-and-a-scope-do-a-low-voltage-level-characterization-of-a-1n4005/msg2354547/#msg2354547)
While progressing in the above thread I found a repeating glitch in my graph. My side tracks will not be interesting for everybody, but there seems to be something funny going on with my Siglent SDS1104X-E. It may not be a huge deal, but it might also be a firmware kind of issue and thus solvable.
So if any owners want to have a look at it, be my guess.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on April 19, 2019, 10:00:51 pm
You have a consistant shift at the same location, so try changing the vdiv of the scope, if it happens at the same voltage then its something weird, if it happens at the same relative position then its the ADC having an in spec non linearity error, similar to a missed code,

To better research what is going on when we see what influences it, we can use the VGAC command to manually set the VGAC amplification, C1:VGAC? get the number then increment it by 1 or more, then set it back with C1:VGAC n ,
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on April 19, 2019, 11:16:24 pm
You have a consistant shift at the same location, so try changing the vdiv of the scope, if it happens at the same voltage then its something weird, if it happens at the same relative position then its the ADC having an in spec non linearity error, similar to a missed code,

To better research what is going on when we see what influences it, we can use the VGAC command to manually set the VGAC amplification, C1:VGAC? get the number then increment it by 1 or more, then set it back with C1:VGAC n ,
Ah nice, more SCPI commands. Is there a resource where this one comes from? I’m still looking for the command that turns segmented mode on, and the nr of segments. Besides that, most of the testing goes automatically. Which is quite the time saver.
Does turning the knob in fine mode also change the VGAC (a new concept to me, have research it sometimes), I alway thought it was (software) value scaling, and did not use it for that reason.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on April 19, 2019, 11:37:57 pm
You have a consistant shift at the same location, so try changing the vdiv of the scope, if it happens at the same voltage then its something weird, if it happens at the same relative position then its the ADC having an in spec non linearity error, similar to a missed code,

To better research what is going on when we see what influences it, we can use the VGAC command to manually set the VGAC amplification, C1:VGAC? get the number then increment it by 1 or more, then set it back with C1:VGAC n ,
Ah nice, more SCPI commands. Is there a resource where this one comes from? I’m still looking for the command that turns segmented mode on, and the nr of segments. Besides that, most of the testing goes automatically. Which is quite the time saver.
Does turning the knob in fine mode also change the VGAC (a new concept to me, have research it sometimes), I alway thought it was (software) value scaling, and did not use it for that reason.
Rerouter has dug into the depths of the X-E's and found lots of undocumented SCPI commands, from another thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-and-sag1021-unwanted-dc-offset/msg2333568/#msg2333568 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-and-sag1021-unwanted-dc-offset/msg2333568/#msg2333568)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on April 19, 2019, 11:59:06 pm
Here is a prettied up older copy, the command your likely after is one of these
Code: [Select]
ACQuire_Way           ACQW  Command / Query ACQUISITION Specifies the acquisition mode.
ACquire_SeQuence_Mode ACSQM Command / Query ACQUISITION
ACquire_SeQuence_Seg  ACSQS Command         ACQUISITION
 

yes the fine vdiv does adjust the VGAC, the calibration process just builds up a table of VGAC codes / DACC offset codes for correct 0 position, it skips some increments and uses the same for multiple VDIV's, this is part of why there are accuracy limits of displayed voltage, as at any vdiv you can be half a step of the VGA off from ideal.

I've been wrapping it up into a nicer command tree for the EEZ studio project, but there is just so many poorly documented ones that it takes a while.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on April 19, 2019, 11:59:49 pm
You have a consistant shift at the same location, so try changing the vdiv of the scope, if it happens at the same voltage then its something weird, if it happens at the same relative position then its the ADC having an in spec non linearity error, similar to a missed code,

To better research what is going on when we see what influences it, we can use the VGAC command to manually set the VGAC amplification, C1:VGAC? get the number then increment it by 1 or more, then set it back with C1:VGAC n ,
Ah nice, more SCPI commands. Is there a resource where this one comes from? I’m still looking for the command that turns segmented mode on, and the nr of segments. Besides that, most of the testing goes automatically. Which is quite the time saver.
Does turning the knob in fine mode also change the VGAC (a new concept to me, have research it sometimes), I alway thought it was (software) value scaling, and did not use it for that reason.
Rerouter has dug into the depths of the X-E's and found lots of undocumented SCPI commands, from another thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-and-sag1021-unwanted-dc-offset/msg2333568/#msg2333568 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-and-sag1021-unwanted-dc-offset/msg2333568/#msg2333568)
I know and I’m making good use off it, but I think it’s only for the AWG?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on April 20, 2019, 12:47:41 am
In the documentation it says:
If the decimal is greater than 127, it should minus 255.Then the value is code value. Such as the wave data is ―FC‖ convert to decimal is 252. So the code value is 252-255 = -3.

But that would also mean that 0=0, and 255-255=0 too,  :-//

Is this calculation correct? Then I might not have implemented this correctly.  :-[
I treat them as signed 8 bit values, thus minus 256.

I’ll do some testing, that would be something that is easily solved.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on April 20, 2019, 01:29:21 am
Not sure which command your referencing, for the VGAC it is an unsigned number, however it splits ranges at code 128 (low amplification mode vs high amplification mode), so 0-127 is low amplification mode, 128-255 is high amplification mode.

I went into more detail a few pages back in this thread,
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on April 20, 2019, 09:43:42 am
Not sure which command your referencing, for the VGAC it is an unsigned number, however it splits ranges at code 128 (low amplification mode vs high amplification mode), so 0-127 is low amplification mode, 128-255 is high amplification mode.

I went into more detail a few pages back in this thread,
I figured out!
But the story is somewhat confusing. The quote:
Code: [Select]
If the decimal is greater than 127, it should minus 255.Then the value is code value. Such as the wave data is ―FC‖ convert to decimal is 252. So the code value is 252-255 = -3.comes from the documentation of the WAVEFORM? | WF? command.
I implemented this treating the rawvalues as a signed 8 bit integer. But that would be -256. So not the documented way. For a moment I thought I screwed up.

The problem is, that I convert this at two places, and in the averaging part I was still using the suggested (documented) way, which brings every value 1 step up above 127 (thus below 0) compared to the other method.
I have the strong suspicion that the documentation is wrong. It should say:
Code: [Select]
If the decimal is greater than 127, it should minus 256. Then the value is code value. Such as the wave data is ―FC‖ convert to decimal is 252. So the code value is 252-256 = -4.
Which is treating them as signed 8 bit values. Without having two ways of ending up with a resulting 0.

Also this solves the strange glitch around the value of 0.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on April 20, 2019, 10:01:38 am
Hmm, I think the glitch just shifted to some voltage above 0. The way I average things (by throwing away the extremes) results in very fine details/errors, but may also effect the way these errors shows themselves. I have to sit on my thinking stone for this one.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on April 20, 2019, 10:27:55 am
instead of throwing away those extemes, you could just do statistical culling,

Take Average of a sample window,
Get however many standard deviations you desire,
Cull any readings outside of that window and take the median value.

A mathematician will probably hunt me to the end of the earth for suggesting it, but see how you go.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on April 20, 2019, 11:31:46 am
The location of the glitches stay at the same voltage while changing to a higher sensitivity (100mV -> 20mV). So these gitches are not related to the adc.
If I do a offset on the AWG they rise with that offset.
The problem is that my analogue glitches where of about the same size as the digital ones. That is confusing.

If I however go down in sensitivity, the digital glitches will show very clear.

It show clearly that the "ramp -256" should be the correct one. The " ramp-255" has as expected a double 0 outcome.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on April 20, 2019, 11:43:07 am
instead of throwing away those extemes, you could just do statistical culling,

Take Average of a sample window,
Get however many standard deviations you desire,
Cull any readings outside of that window and take the median value.

A mathematician will probably hunt me to the end of the earth for suggesting it, but see how you go.
The reason I think throwing them away is a good thing, is because the extremes can be just be spikes because someone started the microwave. Those shouldn't be averaged with just noisy values.

But we probably think alike, I'm having some foreign language issues here...

Also in my case I know that I measure a slow ramp, so any "details" would be errors. And I'm in the process of hunting them down  :box:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on April 20, 2019, 12:08:55 pm
For those who like to see the stairsteps at 2V/div. (The wrong calculation also does not go negative enough!)

I'm glad the 0-crossing error can be fixed. Now I've still some analogue glitches (or AWG problems, but that would not be my first guess) to tackle. May'be some ringing, because it also repeats its self, but does not variate with VDiv settings. This I will continue in the other thread to keep this one clean.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TOWERSIGNALS on April 20, 2019, 01:23:59 pm
Somewhere on this thread I think there was a "scope comparison chart" posted. I've done several searches but can't seem to find it. I'm looking at the Siglent SDS1000x-e line but wanted to compare it with others. Thanks.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on April 20, 2019, 06:28:18 pm
So I did some investigation on the other glitches I still get.

The graph:
* Shows the averaging of 190 values, 50% in the extremes discarded
* 10.0 mV / div but also the same is seen on 100mV/div and 20 mV/div (so no ADC issues here)

For me this is a strong indication that the SAG1021 has a DAC or other digital issue. Also this shift up does not restore (which would be an indication of something more analogue).




Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on April 20, 2019, 06:48:50 pm
Same settings, but with the ofset of the AWG, from 0.353 to 0.343 V.

The relative position of the glitch seem exactly the same! (The offset may drift a bit so an exact difference of 0.01 V should not have been be expected.)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on April 20, 2019, 09:19:16 pm
Somewhere on this thread I think there was a "scope comparison chart" posted. I've done several searches but can't seem to find it. I'm looking at the Siglent SDS1000x-e line but wanted to compare it with others. Thanks.
The sticky one pinned at the top of the Test Equipment board ?

For the 4ch Siglent X-E's just use a search with the exact model # and the one your want to compare it to.
There's quite a few comparison threads.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on April 30, 2019, 06:45:44 pm
What is the latest available firmware version?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Mortymore on April 30, 2019, 06:52:38 pm
What is the latest available firmware version?

SDS1xx4X-E Firmware (4-Channel Models) – 6.1.26 (Release Date 09.26.18 )
SDS1202X-E Firmware (2-Channel Model) – 1.3.23 (Release Date 09.27.18 )

https://www.siglent.eu/Downloads (https://www.siglent.eu/Downloads)
https://www.siglentamerica.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on April 30, 2019, 07:02:56 pm
There must be something newer. I have 7.1.x.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Mortymore on April 30, 2019, 10:42:04 pm
I think the complete firmware version numbering is for example like this: 7.1.6.1.26

If I'm not mistaken on the Siglent website its only the last 3 groups of digits that counts
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Old Printer on May 01, 2019, 02:08:20 am
I have had my 1104X-E about a week. My firmware is 8.1.6.1.26   Hardware version 01-04  Cal certificate is dated Feb-19-2019
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on May 01, 2019, 07:41:09 am
I have had my 1104X-E about a week. My firmware is 8.1.6.1.26   Hardware version 01-04  Cal certificate is dated Feb-19-2019

These bolded are important 8.1.6.1.26 when we normally talk about FW version.

example 7.1.6.1.26  and 8.1.6.1.26  are same when look as user.

first 7 or 8 do not care. (no meaning for users)

x.1.6.1.26

This 1 tell  SDS1004X-E Operating System-V1 (Only For 4-Channel )
Better explained in SDS1004X-E Operating System-V1 .zip package included pdf.
Lets hope no one anymore have 0 in this place in 4 channel model. If have, please update, following tightly instructions.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Cpx on May 01, 2019, 09:29:40 pm
Does  SDS1104X-E have digital filters like band pass, low pass , high pass and band gap?
I want a scope upgrade but i need those filters, since i do power electronics work.
Thanks  :)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on May 01, 2019, 09:54:24 pm
I am not sure about Siglent scopes, but micsig tablet scopes (I think it is the plus model that includes all the options) and GWInstek GDS1054B (installed as an APP that you can download from their website) have digital filters. 

Micsig: High Low Pass
GWInstek: High Low Band Pass

The GDS1054B can be hacked to activate serial decoding, 300MHz (actual frontend BW is 100MHz, but can visualize signals up to 350MHz), search function, segmented memory.  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/possible-gw-instek-gds-1000b-hack/msg1252772/#msg1252772 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/possible-gw-instek-gds-1000b-hack/msg1252772/#msg1252772)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Cpx on May 01, 2019, 10:18:54 pm
SDS1104X-E is in my interest, the alternative in my budget is the famous ds1054z but since its ui is so slow i am searching for  something better... :o
GDS1054B is out of my price range  :-[
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on May 01, 2019, 10:27:45 pm
GDS1054B is $390 - $420 in the US
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on May 01, 2019, 10:28:57 pm
Quote
the alternative in my budget is the famous ds1054z but since its ui is so slow

So slow....says who ?

In the last 4 years I got two ones, we (company) working actual with three every day.
It surely had some issues comparing with the top of the pops what dso concerns.
But "so slow" was not the point.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Mortymore on May 01, 2019, 10:36:59 pm
...
GDS1054B is out of my price range  :-[

If you don't need the 4 channels, take a look (https://www.ebay.es/itm/ISO-TECH-IDS-2072E-DSO-Digital-Oscilloscope-2-Channels-70MHz-J10-12-8967734/223469875581?hash=item3407d7b17d:g:ZYgAAOSwQQBbAxp3)

EDIT: Attached a screen capture from an IDS-2047E with band-pass 20MHz to 50MHz on CH1, and low-pass 50MHz on CH2, both with a 60MHz sinusoidal 4Vpp at input
At a glance, I didn't saw this option on the SDS1000X-E manual, but on the GW-Instek manual they only mention Low and High pass filter, when the current firmware has also band-pass. So things with the Siglent manual may also not be updated for the current firmware.
I suppose if anyone else, tautech may clarify this for you about the Siglent.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Cpx on May 02, 2019, 08:07:44 pm
Thank you Mortymore for the datails. ;)
I want to know for the Siglent, if it doesn't have filters  i will chose the Rigol.  :-//

So slow....says who ?
In the last 4 years I got two ones, we (company) working actual with three every day.
It surely had some issues comparing with the top of the pops what dso concerns.
But "so slow" was not the point.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds1054z-sometimes-slow/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds1054z-sometimes-slow/)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mzo7332nhu4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mzo7332nhu4)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on May 02, 2019, 09:15:13 pm
Thank you Mortymore for the datails. ;)
I want to know for the Siglent, if it doesn't have filters  i will chose the Rigol.  :-//
Does the Rigol have digital filters?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Mortymore on May 02, 2019, 10:11:00 pm
Does the Rigol have digital filters?

According to the manual (http://int.rigol.com/File/TechDoc/20160830/MSO1000Z&DS1000Z_UserGuide_EN.pdf), yes.
see on pag.116: Math Operation - Filter: Low Pass, High Pass, Band Pass, Band Stop

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XO7qtKKFBc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XO7qtKKFBc)

EDIT1: In the meantime, I had some fun, sort of reproducing what this video suggests, also taking advantage of the Spectrum Analyzer (instead of FFT) to start finding the harmonic frequencies, and later isolate them using the band-pass filter APP to isolate the harmonics

EDIT2: Seems that Siglent SDS1000CFL series has digital filter option, but I can't find it on SDS1000X-E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_RoCP-hqgk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_RoCP-hqgk)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on May 04, 2019, 08:23:54 am
Nice feature overall.  But -- do you really trust these images filtered waveforms so that you can really measure something from these. In my eyes they look bit odd. But of course this is nice feature and lot of more than nothing.
I hope if they are implemented they ara also so documented that user know enough exactly these filters detailed data and errors. Most bad thing what can happen with these dsigital side filters is if user come fooled with alias frequencies and then do not know anything what is false and what is true without some further checks. Most danger these are for example possible  unexperienced users who are still in learning curve position where believe all what instrument show - but truth is that all what can see in DSO display is sum of known and unknown errors mixed with unknown input signal.

Then side note. (example images 5 and 6  names ) Fundamental frequency == 1st harmonic! Yesterday, now and forever.
 If someone name harmonics wrong like this then all goes wrong. This error swap also odd and even harmonics and if who ever make this error then just all goes wrong when he think anything bit more complex.  More I thing this was just typing error (example your images 5 and 6).  I note it because I have seen this error (not only typing error but also thinking error) many times and this error is not very rare.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Mortymore on May 04, 2019, 09:40:47 am
@rf-loop

Thanks for all your observations and corrections.
The idea is to clarify and not to mislead anyone. Accordingly, the name of the pictures attached was changed, and also correct my bad habit to write the multiple x1000 with the capital 'K' instead of the lower case 'k', that I recall as something you also point as a mistake (and rightfully).
Never stop pointing mistakes, I always appreciate that.
I think it's all good now.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on May 04, 2019, 10:53:43 am
Nice feature overall.  But -- do you really trust these images filtered waveforms so that you can really measure something from these. In my eyes they look bit odd. But of course this is nice feature and lot of more than nothing.
I hope if they are implemented they ara also so documented that user know enough exactly these filters detailed data and errors. Most bad thing what can happen with these dsigital side filters is if user come fooled with alias frequencies and then do not know anything what is false and what is true without some further checks. Most danger these are for example possible  unexperienced users who are still in learning curve position where believe all what instrument show - but truth is that all what can see in DSO display is sum of known and unknown errors mixed with unknown input signal.

Then side note. (example images 5 and 6  names ) Fundamental frequency == 1st harmonic! Yesterday, now and forever.
 If someone name harmonics wrong like this then all goes wrong. This error swap also odd and even harmonics and if who ever make this error then just all goes wrong when he think anything bit more complex.  More I thing this was just typing error (example your images 5 and 6).  I note it because I have seen this error (not only typing error but also thinking error) many times and this error is not very rare.

So you are  still on your crusade to prove that filters are stupid because Siglent doesn't have them.. :-DD
And you criteria is that after you filter the signal it doesn't look the same as original and it is confusing and it can confuse somebody.
So can inverting channel and scopes have that. So can all other math that does precisely  that: it makes signal on screen  look completely different than input signal. That's confusing too.

Filters on a scope are just another math operation where we want to make some mathematical transformation because we are interested in what a signal would look like if we do that.

People gave you few scenarios where it is useful. One is extracting modulation from PWM  signal. Second one might be measuring RMS in specific bandwidth. Or simply suppressing 50 Hz hum in a signal.Etc, etc.

In order to be useful, naturally, it has to be implemented correctly, with defined characteristics.. So I prefer no filter to some crap.
Also you have to setup input signal correctly and know what are you doing, otherwise you will get crap. GIGO, as always.

But well implemented, filtering is powerful tool.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: plurn on May 04, 2019, 11:51:55 am
Does  SDS1104X-E have digital filters like band pass, low pass , high pass and band gap?
I want a scope upgrade but i need those filters, since i do power electronics work.
Thanks  :)

Does not have those filters as far as I know.

According to the extensive review by Performa01, in the second file "SDS1104X-E Review 26-50.pdf" found here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371771/#msg1371771 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371771/#msg1371771)

There is a section on ERES and in this Performa01 indicates "... Eres acts as a low-pass filter with somewhat obscure parameters. ...". There is more info there on how it behaves and best to read about it there in context rather than my likely misinterpretation. I don't think Performa01 is suggesting we use this as a low pass filter. Maybe it can be to a limited extent.

There are some filters available for triggering, eg LF-Reject and HF-Reject. Also mentioned in the same review document.

I doubt this post helps you at all, but it is what it is.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on May 04, 2019, 12:17:35 pm
FEATURE REQUEST

A possibility to fix the horizontal 0 point (the blue marker) on a certain position on the screen and not on the specific time.

Often I'd like to set the triggering point of the waveform at the beginning of the timeline and not at the middle. No problem to set it, but the 0 point moves each time I change the time base.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on May 04, 2019, 12:28:05 pm
Nice feature overall.  But -- do you really trust these images filtered waveforms so that you can really measure something from these. In my eyes they look bit odd. But of course this is nice feature and lot of more than nothing.
I hope if they are implemented they ara also so documented that user know enough exactly these filters detailed data and errors. Most bad thing what can happen with these dsigital side filters is if user come fooled with alias frequencies and then do not know anything what is false and what is true without some further checks. Most danger these are for example possible  unexperienced users who are still in learning curve position where believe all what instrument show - but truth is that all what can see in DSO display is sum of known and unknown errors mixed with unknown input signal.

Then side note. (example images 5 and 6  names ) Fundamental frequency == 1st harmonic! Yesterday, now and forever.
 If someone name harmonics wrong like this then all goes wrong. This error swap also odd and even harmonics and if who ever make this error then just all goes wrong when he think anything bit more complex.  More I thing this was just typing error (example your images 5 and 6).  I note it because I have seen this error (not only typing error but also thinking error) many times and this error is not very rare.

So you are  still on your crusade to prove that filters are stupid because Siglent doesn't have them.. :-DD
And you criteria is that after you filter the signal it doesn't look the same as original and it is confusing and it can confuse somebody.
So can inverting channel and scopes have that. So can all other math that does precisely  that: it makes signal on screen  look completely different than input signal. That's confusing too.

Filters on a scope are just another math operation where we want to make some mathematical transformation because we are interested in what a signal would look like if we do that.

People gave you few scenarios where it is useful. One is extracting modulation from PWM  signal. Second one might be measuring RMS in specific bandwidth. Or simply suppressing 50 Hz hum in a signal.Etc, etc.

In order to be useful, naturally, it has to be implemented correctly, with defined characteristics.. So I prefer no filter to some crap.
Also you have to setup input signal correctly and know what are you doing, otherwise you will get crap. GIGO, as always.

But well implemented, filtering is powerful tool.

And you jump over my main phrase in my answer,  |O  where from this selective blindness is coming?
Also these filters are in Siglent many older models and thousands of times I have told them as useful. But not at all without also some cons and also traps.

Quote
But well implemented, filtering is powerful tool.

Yes. Of course.

Then need define what is well implemented. Have you seen these filters detailed specifications. As long as they are "something" they are for nice images. "Adjust and look if you like image is nice".




Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on May 04, 2019, 12:41:45 pm
Nice feature overall.  But -- do you really trust these images filtered waveforms so that you can really measure something from these. In my eyes they look bit odd. But of course this is nice feature and lot of more than nothing.
I hope if they are implemented they ara also so documented that user know enough exactly these filters detailed data and errors. Most bad thing what can happen with these dsigital side filters is if user come fooled with alias frequencies and then do not know anything what is false and what is true without some further checks. Most danger these are for example possible  unexperienced users who are still in learning curve position where believe all what instrument show - but truth is that all what can see in DSO display is sum of known and unknown errors mixed with unknown input signal.

Then side note. (example images 5 and 6  names ) Fundamental frequency == 1st harmonic! Yesterday, now and forever.
 If someone name harmonics wrong like this then all goes wrong. This error swap also odd and even harmonics and if who ever make this error then just all goes wrong when he think anything bit more complex.  More I thing this was just typing error (example your images 5 and 6).  I note it because I have seen this error (not only typing error but also thinking error) many times and this error is not very rare.

So you are  still on your crusade to prove that filters are stupid because Siglent doesn't have them.. :-DD
And you criteria is that after you filter the signal it doesn't look the same as original and it is confusing and it can confuse somebody.
So can inverting channel and scopes have that. So can all other math that does precisely  that: it makes signal on screen  look completely different than input signal. That's confusing too.

Filters on a scope are just another math operation where we want to make some mathematical transformation because we are interested in what a signal would look like if we do that.

People gave you few scenarios where it is useful. One is extracting modulation from PWM  signal. Second one might be measuring RMS in specific bandwidth. Or simply suppressing 50 Hz hum in a signal.Etc, etc.

In order to be useful, naturally, it has to be implemented correctly, with defined characteristics.. So I prefer no filter to some crap.
Also you have to setup input signal correctly and know what are you doing, otherwise you will get crap. GIGO, as always.

But well implemented, filtering is powerful tool.

And you jump over my main phrase in my answer,  |O  where from this selective blindness is coming?
Also these filters are in Siglent many older models and thousands of times I have told them as useful. But not at all without also some cons and also traps.

Quote
But well implemented, filtering is powerful tool.

Yes. Of course.

Then need define what is well implemented. Have you seen these filters detailed specifications. As long as they are "something" they are for nice images. "Adjust and look if you like image is nice".


I believe I finally understand what you mean. It seems that we are both suffering from a problem of communicating trough a (to us) foreign language.

So we are saying the same: Well implemented filters would be great addition to current Siglent production line. But only done well and well specified, otherwise they are gimmick.

I'm sorry if I wronged you by my misunderstanding. My apologies.

Regards,
Sinisa
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on May 04, 2019, 12:48:19 pm
Nice feature overall.  But -- do you really trust these images filtered waveforms so that you can really measure something from these. In my eyes they look bit odd. But of course this is nice feature and lot of more than nothing.
I hope if they are implemented they ara also so documented that user know enough exactly these filters detailed data and errors. Most bad thing what can happen with these dsigital side filters is if user come fooled with alias frequencies and then do not know anything what is false and what is true without some further checks. Most danger these are for example possible  unexperienced users who are still in learning curve position where believe all what instrument show - but truth is that all what can see in DSO display is sum of known and unknown errors mixed with unknown input signal.

Then side note. (example images 5 and 6  names ) Fundamental frequency == 1st harmonic! Yesterday, now and forever.
 If someone name harmonics wrong like this then all goes wrong. This error swap also odd and even harmonics and if who ever make this error then just all goes wrong when he think anything bit more complex.  More I thing this was just typing error (example your images 5 and 6).  I note it because I have seen this error (not only typing error but also thinking error) many times and this error is not very rare.

So you are  still on your crusade to prove that filters are stupid because Siglent doesn't have them.. :-DD
And you criteria is that after you filter the signal it doesn't look the same as original and it is confusing and it can confuse somebody.
So can inverting channel and scopes have that. So can all other math that does precisely  that: it makes signal on screen  look completely different than input signal. That's confusing too.

Filters on a scope are just another math operation where we want to make some mathematical transformation because we are interested in what a signal would look like if we do that.

People gave you few scenarios where it is useful. One is extracting modulation from PWM  signal. Second one might be measuring RMS in specific bandwidth. Or simply suppressing 50 Hz hum in a signal.Etc, etc.

In order to be useful, naturally, it has to be implemented correctly, with defined characteristics.. So I prefer no filter to some crap.
Also you have to setup input signal correctly and know what are you doing, otherwise you will get crap. GIGO, as always.

But well implemented, filtering is powerful tool.

And you jump over my main phrase in my answer,  |O  where from this selective blindness is coming?
Also these filters are in Siglent many older models and thousands of times I have told them as useful. But not at all without also some cons and also traps.

Quote
But well implemented, filtering is powerful tool.

Yes. Of course.

Then need define what is well implemented. Have you seen these filters detailed specifications. As long as they are "something" they are for nice images. "Adjust and look if you like image is nice".


I believe I finally understand what you mean. It seems that we are both suffering from a problem of communicating trough a (to us) foreign language.

So we are saying the same: Well implemented filters would be great addition to current Siglent production line. But only done well and well specified, otherwise they are gimmick.

I'm sorry if I wronged you by my misunderstanding. My apologies.

Regards,
Sinisa

Yes, it is pity. Some times really confusing. But still better than no discussion. As long as neither really wants anything bad or wrong. And I've never seen it between us.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on May 04, 2019, 01:22:15 pm
FEATURE REQUEST

A possibility to fix the horizontal 0 point (the blue marker) on a certain position on the screen and not on the specific time.

Often I'd like to set the triggering point of the waveform at the beginning of the timeline and not at the middle. No problem to set it, but the 0 point moves each time I change the time base.

Look utility menu page 4/4 !  Thanks belongs to  Santa Claus or Siglent. ;)

And sidenote: with fixed horizontal position other than middle of screen...and if you then use horizontal splitted screen zoom ... well it can say: I hope FW programmers have even some real experience about using oscilloscopes for working... yes it can use but using with splitted window zoom it is not nice (look how it show zoomed position delay)

There in utility meny page 4 can find:
Reference Pos.
Under it can find:

Vertical
-Fixed Position (default)
-Fixed (voltage)Offset

Horizontal
-Fixed Position  << You want this.
-Fixed (time)Delay (default)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on May 05, 2019, 02:45:27 pm
rf-loop, thank you very much! It made my work much more comfortable.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on May 05, 2019, 03:58:00 pm
This User Manual is...   :-//

This feature is hided to page 187 in User manual version E03A .
Press Utility and then...and then:  What "Expand setting"...


I do not know what oscilloscope this User Manual writer have used or is this just fictional story book.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: exe on May 05, 2019, 04:10:38 pm
micsig tablet scopes (I think it is the plus model that includes all the options) ... have digital filters.

FWIW the representative of micsig here claimed the low-pass filter is implemented in hardware. I'd expect a varicap. I found this feature very handy to remove unwanted noise when only fraction of full bandwidth is needed.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on May 05, 2019, 06:01:20 pm
micsig tablet scopes (I think it is the plus model that includes all the options) ... have digital filters.

FWIW the representative of micsig here claimed the low-pass filter is implemented in hardware. I'd expect a varicap. I found this feature very handy to remove unwanted noise when only fraction of full bandwidth is needed.
Variable freq LPF filter? How steep? 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on May 05, 2019, 06:17:47 pm
micsig tablet scopes (I think it is the plus model that includes all the options) ... have digital filters.

FWIW the representative of micsig here claimed the low-pass filter is implemented in hardware. I'd expect a varicap. I found this feature very handy to remove unwanted noise when only fraction of full bandwidth is needed.

I doubt he meant analog hardware filter. DSP filter running on FPGA would also be called hardware filter, as opposed to one running on application processor.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nctnico on May 05, 2019, 06:21:43 pm
micsig tablet scopes (I think it is the plus model that includes all the options) ... have digital filters.

FWIW the representative of micsig here claimed the low-pass filter is implemented in hardware. I'd expect a varicap. I found this feature very handy to remove unwanted noise when only fraction of full bandwidth is needed.
No. Hardware means digital filtering in FPGA in this case. You can't make a variable filter using a varicap with that much frequency range.
However the GW Instek does filtering in software which means it is slower but I think the filters GW Instek is using are steeper compared to the ones MicSig is using. Either way for power electronics freely adjustable input filters are very handy for two reasons: a) get rid of switching noise and b) turn a PWM signal back into an 'analog' signal.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: exe on May 05, 2019, 08:11:03 pm
Variable freq LPF filter? How steep?

Idk, don't a generator at hand atm, not even ad2 :(. I think it wasn't steep last time I checked (more than year ago). Looked like a roll-off of an rc-filter, but can't confirm this.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on May 06, 2019, 10:32:06 am
Due to some times pop up question about frequency response with different input sensitivity settings.

One example here (there was also Siglent measured):
With manufacturers like Rigol producing DSOs with unspecified and variable full power bandwidth, these tests are close to useless without specifying the input sensitivity.  In the past this was not a consideration because the full power bandwidth was always higher than the bandwidth at any input sensitivity which was a result of operating the input stages over a much smaller signal range.

 later in same thread

Quote from: David Hess
I am claiming that with a modern oscilloscope, the measurement cannot be replicated without knowing the input sensitivity because many oscilloscopes now have wildly varying bandwidth with different input sensitives.  This has shown up repeated on this forum with users making rise time and bandwidth measurements of Rigol DS1000Z DSOs which vary over more than a 2:1 range depending on the test conditions.

Here tiny test. This test is done just with very simply and inaccurate method but still it may give some imagine about situation with different sensitivities.  For accuraacy this kind of test need do using level control in scope BNC using leveled head or using example high grade splitter and power meter etc.

But because this is not scientific work and need only give rough image about how it is.

I can not measure scope voltage Band III as can measure other bands. My Signal generator is just barely ok for measure 2V/div and even this, with reduced amplitude. Most tests I have made so that reference level (10MHz) is around 6 vertical div p-p.  But other observations with 5 and 10V/div tell that it follow least roughly this same what can see in table.

Conclusion. Not big differences starting from most sensitive 500uV/div  up to least 2V/div if look these 10MHz and 200MHz points  (and betveen these not any mysterious, but due to lack of free time, this give enough info that least there is not any big  differences over whole sensitivity range in frequency response. Nothing like example old Tektronix 2225 what have full BW (50MHz) 5mV/div  but then more or less reduced BW for 2mV, 1mV and finally 500uV/div reduced to 5MHz (based to user manual). Siglent 500uV is full bandwidth, as also all other V/div steps.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=727461;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on May 09, 2019, 06:49:17 pm
For those who wish to parse the response of the WF? ALL query, I've found this document, especially the Waveform template section to be very useful.

https://wiki.epfl.ch/carplat/documents/PDF/LC6800A_WM-RCM-E_Rev_D.pdf (https://wiki.epfl.ch/carplat/documents/PDF/LC6800A_WM-RCM-E_Rev_D.pdf)

With this documentation it was not to hard to get VOffset, VFactor data etc. from the response, instead of having to query them separately.

Also there're some fields with sizes in them, which can be used to get to the waveform data in a robuust way. Also knowing how many bits (1 of 2 bytes) the samples are. I don't think hires and averaging samples can be fetched with extra bits, but if it could these fields would be vital.

I still have the issue that WFSU NP,xx limits the number of point but results in having a single repeating value in the waveform data  :-//

Also would it be nice if segments could be queried separately using WFSU SN,xx. Now I'm using a different approach, which works, but I'm essentially setting gui stuff, with (usable) side effects.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: JPortici on May 12, 2019, 09:51:48 am
Why we need filters (very rudimentary three phase pwm):
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=733581;image)

one has to play with the integrator and still the reconstructed waveform will not be correct :--
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on May 12, 2019, 11:37:11 am
Why we need filters (very rudimentary three phase pwm):
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=733581;image)

one has to play with the integrator and still the reconstructed waveform will not be correct :--
Is this because math operates on the “GUI data” and not the underlying raw samples data? (So much of the square downs are not “seen”?)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: JPortici on May 12, 2019, 11:48:20 am
no, or at least AFAIK the math channel operate on the full memory (in the 5000X. I believe in the 1000X as well).
It's because the integrator and the differentiator are notoriously tricky to set up in many scopes and since the DC component will be integrated over time you have to play with the parameters to get something that tends to be lined up.

This is what it should look like with filters: screenshot taken with ERES at 3bit and lowest memory depth. This is far from an ideal scenario because i have to throw away an acquisition to get a good picture. With properly implemented filters instead i could have the PWM AND the pretty picture
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on May 12, 2019, 12:13:17 pm
The math does work on the entire sample memory, there is an existing "filter" menu for channels, with a "Type", "low limit" and "high limit" however its not obvious to me how to get to it, I suspect its like the EDUMODE menu, where if you get to it, it works, but just lacks a path to get there normally,

My current attack has been trying to find exactly what file they save the last viewed menu to when you power cycle the device,

It seems like its /usr/bin/siglent/usr/config/temp_setting.xml but manually editing this then causing an unexpected shutdown does not seem to over-ride it. equally its not entirely clear to me how the "menu_ID" is mapped, the numbering does not follow what they use for the menu tree text, If we can figure out a way to control what menu the scope starts up in, we can see if the function is available and just hidden, or if its like some of the decoder option SCPI commands where its there but does nothing (some decoder SCPI queries are hard coded to return with no data, the commands work, just find it odd)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on May 12, 2019, 01:30:06 pm
no, or at least AFAIK the math channel operate on the full memory (in the 5000X. I believe in the 1000X as well).


I have not checked SDS1000X  series but I suspect not (least for measurements there is intermewdiate buffer, more than display resolution but less than raw acquisition memory. 
But then SDS1000X-E series, it is different, as also it use full raw acquisition memory for measurements with full sample resoluition.

Image: SDS1204X-E  5100Hz sqr PWM 50Hz sine. Trig to  (>10ns/<30ns) pulse.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=733710;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on May 12, 2019, 02:28:40 pm
Differentiation is one of the reasons why you need filters. You filter channel and pipe it into differentiation. Than by fine tuning lowpass filter you can choose how "nervous" the differentiation will be and make it work on signal but not on noise.
Hence need for filtering and math on math..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: JPortici on May 12, 2019, 02:43:42 pm
I have not checked SDS1000X  series but I suspect not (least for measurements there is intermewdiate buffer, more than display resolution but less than raw acquisition memory. 

Yeah, sorry. I meant X-E
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on May 16, 2019, 05:54:37 pm
FEATURE REQUEST

Did you notice the Siglent logo on the screen of SDS1000X-E? To me it looks ugly and cheap. I thought it was the same on all Siglent scopes, but the screenshots SDS5034X in this topic show that there is another much better looking version.

I pasted the logo from SDS5034X to a screenshot from SDS1000X-E. Just compare the two versions and see the difference.

Question to Siglent: would it be possible to change the logo on the SDS1000X-E screen? I know that we are talking about a piece of measurement equipment but if it can look better why not to do it? Aesthetics is also important. This small detail will make the screenshots look more professional and not cheap.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 23, 2019, 07:07:58 pm
New firmware, updated Programming guide and Datasheet
SDS1004X-E documentation
https://www.siglentamerica.com/resources/documents/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds1000x-e-series (https://www.siglentamerica.com/resources/documents/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds1000x-e-series)


Firmware updates for SDS1004X-E DSO's and SLA1016 16ch MSO module

SDS1104X-E, SDS1204X-E
Version  6.1.33
8.4 MB
https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/8917/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/8917/)

21 issues and bugs fixed addressed in the firmware release notes:
https://www.siglentamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2019/05/SDS1xx4X-E-Firmware-Revise-History-and-Update-Instructions.pdf (https://www.siglentamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2019/05/SDS1xx4X-E-Firmware-Revise-History-and-Update-Instructions.pdf)

________________________________________________________________________________________

SLA1016 MSO module
Version 6.1.16
4.75 MB
https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/8910/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/8910/)

Very important !
Optimized communication between SDS1004X-E and SLA1016. If the SDS1004X-E will be upgraded to this version (or higher), the SLA1016 MUST be upgraded to 8.1.16 (or higher) first.

See release notes as linked above.

Important
Run Self Cal after firmware updates.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on May 23, 2019, 07:31:11 pm
New firmware, updated Programming guide and Datasheet
SDS1004X-E documentation
https://www.siglentamerica.com/resources/documents/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds1000x-e-series (https://www.siglentamerica.com/resources/documents/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds1000x-e-series)


Firmware updates for SDS1004X-E DSO's and SLA1016 16ch MSO module

SDS1104X-E, SDS1204X-E
Version  6.1.33
8.4 MB
https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/8917/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/8917/)

21 issues and bugs fixed addressed in the firmware release notes:
https://www.siglentamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2019/05/SDS1xx4X-E-Firmware-Revise-History-and-Update-Instructions.pdf (https://www.siglentamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2019/05/SDS1xx4X-E-Firmware-Revise-History-and-Update-Instructions.pdf)

________________________________________________________________________________________

SLA1016 MSO module
Version 6.1.16
4.75 MB
https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/8910/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/8910/)

Due to compatibility between firmware versions please check your X-E DSO has 6.1.33 firmware before updating to version 6.1.16
See release notes as linked above.


Important

Run Self Cal after firmware updates.

The PDF you linked to (https://www.siglentamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2019/05/SDS1xx4X-E-Firmware-Revise-History-and-Update-Instructions.pdf (https://www.siglentamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2019/05/SDS1xx4X-E-Firmware-Revise-History-and-Update-Instructions.pdf)) says:

Quote
Optimized communication between SDS1004X-E and SLA1016.  If the SDS1004X-E will be upgraded to this version(or higher), the SLA1016 MUST be upgraded to 8.1.16 (or higher) first.

Which is to say, it says you MUST upgrade the SLA1016 before you upgrade the scope.

But in your message, you said that you must upgrade the scope before you upgrade the SLA1016.

Which one of those is actually correct?  It sounds like a mismatch will result in the scope not being able to talk to the logic analyzer.  That would imply that you have to upgrade the logic analyzer first (which is what Siglent's notes seem to say).  If you upgrade the scope first, it would no longer be able to talk to the logic analyzer, thus preventing you from upgrading the logic analyzer.

Please clarify.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillB on May 23, 2019, 07:54:40 pm
I updated SLA first, then scope.  Looks ok.  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on May 23, 2019, 08:11:14 pm
I have also just upgraded SLA first and then scope, all working well.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on May 23, 2019, 08:34:06 pm
If you upgrade the scope first, it would no longer be able to talk to the logic analyzer, thus preventing you from upgrading the logic analyzer.

Excellent point. Beware!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: plurn on May 24, 2019, 05:57:05 am

...
If you upgrade the scope first, it would no longer be able to talk to the logic analyzer, thus preventing you from upgrading the logic analyzer.
...

That quote is taken out of context and is not a statement of fact - more of a question. I would hope this statement is not true. Imagine if you buy a used or old stock, un-upgraded SLA1016, and tried to use it with your SDS1104X-E with latest firmware. I don't expect that there would just be no communications and no way to upgrade the SLA1016 firmware it if you ended up with a new firmware SDS1104X-E and an old firmware SLA1016. But I don't really know. Perhaps you would need to downgrade firmware on SDS1104X-E (if they even let you do that) in order to upgrade the firmware on the SLA1016?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on May 24, 2019, 09:05:43 am
I also think that they wouldn't do that because if people already have an old SLA (not updated) and now buy a new SDS, how do they solve it??

But, better safe than sorry.

We can downgrade but it's always more unnecessary work...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on May 24, 2019, 10:42:41 am
Nice to see that the decoders and digital has been fleshed out,

Is there a reason they seem very reluctant to cover the AWG option commands in the manual?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 24, 2019, 11:01:42 am
I also think that they wouldn't do that because if people already have an old SLA (not updated) and now buy a new SDS, how do they solve it??

But, better safe than sorry.

We can downgrade but it's always more unnecessary work...
I think it is all quite clear from the update instructions:

Quote
Update instructions
Very important!
Version 8.1.16 of the SLA1016 optimizes the FPGA. This version is compatible with the following oscilloscope versions: SDS1004X-E (>=6.1.33), SDS2000X-E (>=1.1.18).

If your current SLA1016 revision is < 8.1.16, you can only upgrade the SLA firmware using an SDS1004X-E (<6.1.33) or an SDS2000X-E (<1.1.18)

After upgrading the SLA1016, you can upgrade the oscilloscope.

So yes, you might have to downgrade the scope in order to be able to update an old SLA (<8.1.16).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on May 24, 2019, 01:06:54 pm
I reported a limit of 3000 bytes on SPI decoding some time ago here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/impressive-keysight-1000x-series-(edux1002g-modded)-spi-triggering-rate/msg2417037/#msg2417037 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/impressive-keysight-1000x-series-(edux1002g-modded)-spi-triggering-rate/msg2417037/#msg2417037)

Siglent "fixed" the problem by adding a message that the limit has been reached, instead of increasing the limit  :palm:

Long memory for nothing... it only shows 3000 SPI decode bytes (not even frames, BYTES)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=745104;image)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on May 24, 2019, 01:10:08 pm
After you upgrade the firmware, the stored setup recalls some strange values and settings.  The channel vertical settings were saved @ 2V/div and recalled at 200mV/div (10X attenuation).

I had setup1 in internal memory set to trigger on SPI, with threshold levels around 2V on CH1, CH2 and CH3.  After the upgrade and recall setup1, it shows threshold over 10-12V and also the trigger setting from SPI was changed to I2C...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 25, 2019, 12:20:34 am
After you upgrade the firmware, the stored setup recalls some strange values and settings.  The channel vertical settings were saved @ 2V/div and recalled at 200mV/div (10X attenuation).

I had setup1 in internal memory set to trigger on SPI, with threshold levels around 2V on CH1, CH2 and CH3.  After the upgrade and recall setup1, it shows threshold over 10-12V and also the trigger setting from SPI was changed to I2C...
I've tried this and found no issue with setups created by the new firmware. So this appears to be a compatibility issue with setup files from previous firmware versions. But yes, I agree, this should not happen nevertheless.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on May 25, 2019, 12:36:48 am
After you upgrade the firmware, the stored setup recalls some strange values and settings.  The channel vertical settings were saved @ 2V/div and recalled at 200mV/div (10X attenuation).

I had setup1 in internal memory set to trigger on SPI, with threshold levels around 2V on CH1, CH2 and CH3.  After the upgrade and recall setup1, it shows threshold over 10-12V and also the trigger setting from SPI was changed to I2C...
I've tried this and found no issue with setups created by the new firmware. So this appears to be a compatibility issue with setup files from previous firmware versions. But yes, I agree, this should not happen nevertheless.
Yes, it is a setup saved in previous firmware, then recalled after upgrade
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: plurn on May 25, 2019, 05:05:02 am
FEATURE REQUEST

Did you notice the Siglent logo on the screen of SDS1000X-E? To me it looks ugly and cheap.

Agreed - it looks a mess.

Just found out that the Teledyne Lecroy T3DSO1104 is a rebadged SDS1104X-E. I wonder if we can get the oscilloscope app from the T3DSO1104 and use it on the SDS1104X-E for a different logo? Marketing photos of the T3DSO1104 show no logo on the screen - but I assume it has a Teledyne Lecroy logo?

http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/t3dso1000-datasheet.pdf (http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/t3dso1000-datasheet.pdf)

Edit: I assumed wrong. Just has logo removed from the display. That is a bit lazy:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=745926;image)
credit: hackaday.io/project/163056/gallery
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calvin on May 25, 2019, 12:20:44 pm
Hi,

probabely a stupid Q, but ...... ahead of updating SLA1016 I´m asked to connect a ´digital´ device (the logic probe?), which I haven´t.
Also a message appears asking for a .cfg file ????
So am I right, that I can´t update SLA1016 w/o the logic probe connected?
Or does it mean, that I can´t upgrade later on to the SLA1016, because a newer FW revision like 6.1.33 has appeared and been installed meanwhile?

regards
Calvin
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 25, 2019, 12:47:15 pm
Calvin, the SLA1016 is the logic probe! ;)

And yes, you cannot upgrade a device (logic probe SLA1016 in this particular case) that you don't have.

If you buy an SLA1016 later, it will most likely have the new firmware anyway, hence doesn't need to be upgraded. If I were in your position, I would just check this with your vendor and negotiate that he has to make sure it has the latest firmware (or otherwise he needs to do the update) before shipping it to you.

Even if everything else fails, you can still upgrade even an old SLA1016, you just need to downgrade your scope to a pre-6.1.33 FW beforehand (and re-update it to the then current FW again afterwards).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calvin on May 25, 2019, 01:04:37 pm
Hi,

okidoki ... thanks .... but discovered another issue.
The USB-stick I just used to upgrade to 6.1.33 isn´t detected any more after the upgrade.  :o
If You put it in the socket a message pops up after a few seconds "USB flash drive removed" even though the device is still present.
Used another stick (which didn´t work before, probabely due to the known USB size prob) to downgrade to FW 6.1.26 again.
Then the original stick (32GB ... I bought it only for upgrading the Siglent) worked again and I could upgrade to 6.1.33 again ..... and guess what ... after reboot it couldn´t be detected and the same error message occured.  |O |O |O  :palm:
Removing the stick and the message pops again ..... so the scope recognizes the plugging and unplugging of the stick ... but doesn´t ´detect´ it.
Now isn´t  that weird?   :-- :-- :--

regards
Calvin
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on May 25, 2019, 01:14:04 pm
Now isn´t  that weird?   :-- :-- :--

:)

2 options: interesting or bug!

When you resinsert the disk you have the update ADS in there? If yes, delete the file and try again. What happens next?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on May 25, 2019, 01:20:30 pm
Can confirm that updating on my one, the USB is still recognized after the Update, I am using a 4GB USB if that matters.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 25, 2019, 01:52:08 pm
I've tried to replicate it:
With a crappy 64GB Intenso, NTFS formatted, I also got the message "USB drive removed" a few seconds after plugging it in. But that was to be expected of course. FAT32 drives up to 32GB should work fine though.

If an USB stick works before the upgrade but not afterwards, it might have something to do with this item from the revision history:
Quote
4.   Optimized accessing USB drive so that when a USB drive is moved to a computer, Windows will not prompt a restoration of the USB drive.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calvin on May 25, 2019, 02:43:18 pm
Hi,

it´s a Verbatim Stick, FAT32 formatted (16kB blocks).
Deleting all files from the Stick didn´t work, neither did a reformat help.
All my other other (smaller) Sticks that didn´t work before due to the USB-size prob do work now (128M, 1G and 2G)
Btw. with the 128MB S stick my PC responded with an error message that a error had been detected and the file system had to be repaired (I remember, that the verbatim also had that issue after beeing pulled from the Siglent)
The stick is properly recognized on my PC, the Siglent SDG20242X and SDM3065X .... just not on the updated scope.

regards
Calvin
Title: Error in CSV data time
Post by: graybeard on May 26, 2019, 05:24:21 am
I have had my SDS1104X-E for about two weeks and up until now I have been very impressed with the performance, especially for the money.   However I disappointed with CSV data file output in the new firmware update (6.1.33).   All other digital scopes I have used save data with time zero being the trigger point.   The scope sets time zero at the left side of the screen, and has no indication of the trigger point in the data.  I view this as a fundamental error in the data output format.  It would be OK if there was some indication of the time where the trigger occurred, but there is none in the file.

For example, look at this screen in which the trigger point is in the center of the displayed data.

(http://diver.net/eevblog/SDS1104X-E/2019.95.25/SDS00001.png)

Since there are 14 displayed divisions, and the time base is set for 100ns/division the time should go from -700ns to 700ns.  The scope handles this correctly internally when the data is displayed on the screen or shifted horizontally in time.

However when I save this data as a CSV file (http://diver.net/eevblog/SDS1104X-E/2019.95.25/SDS00001.csv) there is no indication of where the trigger occurred and the time in the file goes from 0 to 1400ns.

(http://diver.net/eevblog/SDS1104X-E/2019.95.25/csv_data.png)

The CSV file (http://diver.net/eevblog/SDS1104X-E/2019.95.25/SDS00001.csv) is not correct.   I have not tried this with earlier versions of the firmware, but I view this as a fundamental flaw in the output data.

Chris
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 26, 2019, 06:42:48 am
Chris, thank you for sharing your observation.

I agree that the exported data are barely useful without clear trigger point indication and I have pointed Siglent R&D to your posting.

I'm glad you like the scope otherwise!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Apofview on May 26, 2019, 06:12:34 pm
Hi,
Just sharing some observation.
Plugged USB stick 16GB, works great, saving images, recognized after soft power-down, all ok, but,
after blackout (during standby - soft power down) usb still plugged in but after boot usb did not recognized.
After reboot without usb stick, plugging again usb all ok. Tested two times - unplugging from power in stand by mode.
Like scope didn't like being unplugged from power with usb plugged in.
Title: old vs new
Post by: graybeard on May 27, 2019, 05:10:38 am
(http://diver.net/eevblog/SDS1104X-E/2019.05.26/sm_tek_7904A_siglent_SDS1104X-E.jpg) (http://diver.net/eevblog/SDS1104X-E/2019.05.26/tek_7904A_siglent_SDS1104X-E.jpg)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on May 27, 2019, 08:57:04 pm
For those who wish to parse the response of the WF? ALL query, I've found this document, especially the Waveform template section to be very useful.

https://wiki.epfl.ch/carplat/documents/PDF/LC6800A_WM-RCM-E_Rev_D.pdf (https://wiki.epfl.ch/carplat/documents/PDF/LC6800A_WM-RCM-E_Rev_D.pdf)

With this documentation it was not to hard to get VOffset, VFactor data etc. from the response, instead of having to query them separately.

Also there're some fields with sizes in them, which can be used to get to the waveform data in a robuust way. Also knowing how many bits (1 of 2 bytes) the samples are. I don't think hires and averaging samples can be fetched with extra bits, but if it could these fields would be vital.

I still have the issue that WFSU NP,xx limits the number of point but results in having a single repeating value in the waveform data  :-//

Also would it be nice if segments could be queried separately using WFSU SN,xx. Now I'm using a different approach, which works, but I'm essentially setting gui stuff, with (usable) side effects.

I still have the issue that WFSU NP,xx limits the number of point but results in having a single repeating value in the waveform data  :-//

This seems to be solved  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 28, 2019, 09:46:42 am
Hi,
Just sharing some observation.
Plugged USB stick 16GB, works great, saving images, recognized after soft power-down, all ok, but,
after blackout (during standby - soft power down) usb still plugged in but after boot usb did not recognized.
After reboot without usb stick, plugging again usb all ok. Tested two times - unplugging from power in stand by mode.
Like scope didn't like being unplugged from power with usb plugged in.
This somewhat mirrors my experiences in that a hard power OFF has the DSO not saving settings.
They much prefer a soft power OFF so to shut down gracefully and remember previous settings.

BTW, whenever you report some bug or issue please include the firmware version you have installed.
Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on May 28, 2019, 12:25:27 pm
Thank you Siglent, You build in a feature requests and don't even make note of it..  :-DD

There was a uprising amount of stuff added, its about 3MB extra on the main application alone.

We have all new Bode Plot SCPI commands  :-+

BODE:SW BODE:SWITCH Query / Command
BODE:AWG Query / Command
BODE:STIM BODE:STIMULUS Command
BODE:SWP BODE:SWEEP Command
BODE:SWP:EDIT BODE:SWEEP:EDIT Command
BODE:DUT Command
BODE:OPER BODE:OPERATE Command
BODE:DIS:APM BODE:DISPLAY:APM Command
BODE:DIS:PHA BODE:DISPLAY:PHA Command
BODE:DIS:ASET BODE:DISPLAY:ASET Command
BODE:DIS:CRS BODE:DISPLAY:CRS Command
BODE:DATA Command

Some new probe commands that hint at digital probes
C1:POffs Command / Query   
C1:PDAC Command / Query
C1:PDelta Command / Query                     
C1:PIntc C1:PIntercept Command / Query
C1:PCali C1:ProbeCalibrate Command / Query
C1:PInfo C1:ProbeInfo Command / Query
C1:ProbeSN 
C1:PType C1:ProbeType
C1:PRes C1:ProbeRes
C1:PCap C1:ProbeCap
C1:PBW C1:ProbeBW
C1:PGain C1:ProbeGain

And just way too much new stuff around decoders and triggering for me to dig through tonight, its about 4 pages worth of commands, more or less breaking out every available settings, Good work devs,
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: JPortici on May 28, 2019, 12:31:27 pm
Quote
Some new probe commands that hint at digital probes
probably this is for the 5000X and its active probe interface?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on May 28, 2019, 12:33:19 pm
Quite likely, still they are valid commands, even if they don't end up being used.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 28, 2019, 02:42:22 pm
What you're seeing is probably the beauty of a common software platform. Some new features are prototyped on the entry level machine and then make their way into the higher class instruments like the midrange SDS5000X. The software modules require a well defined interface, so they can be easily ported to a touch UI instrument and this also makes it easy to add the corresponding SCPI commands.

Both the new FFT features  as well as the new Bode Plot II application will make it into the SDS5000X, but we get the first implementation in the entry level SDS1004X-E.

FFT:
- better structured UI
- selectable FFT length for easier setup without the need to change the max. record length in the Acquire menu
- up to 8 markers
- configurable search for peaks and harmonics
- table view for the search results

There are still some minor issues that will be sorted with the next update.

Bode Plot II:
- Improved accuracy
- Smoothed traces for better visual appearance
- Dynamic range at least 110dB
- New vari-level plot (you can define a table of frequency/amplitude pairs for the sweep profile)

This is still not complete, some important features are still missing and visual presentation needs further improvement, but all these topics made it on Siglent's to-do list already ;)

Attached are example screenshots for both new modules.

Title: A wish for future firmware updates
Post by: graybeard on May 28, 2019, 03:44:08 pm
My wish, besides fixing the lack of trigger reference error in the CSV data, for a future firmware update for the SDS1104X-E is an addition to the XY mode.  I would like to see an XYZ mode in which channel 3 or 4 could be used to vary the intensity of the trace.  This way it could mimic the functions of analog scope in the ability to vary intensity and blank the display, and also be used to mimic and analog monitor fixing older CRT based gear.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 28, 2019, 09:19:24 pm
My wish, besides fixing the lack of trigger reference error in the CSV data, for a future firmware update for the SDS1104X-E is an addition to the XY mode.  I would like to see an XYZ mode in which channel 3 or 4 could be used to vary the intensity of the trace.  This way it could mimic the functions of analog scope in the ability to vary intensity and blank the display, and also be used to mimic and analog monitor fixing older CRT based gear.
Well, we've got this on the todo list for the midrange model SDS5000X, and I think once we've got that, it could eventually trickle down to some other models as well. I will certainly recommend this! Or maybe this will be another instance of the reverse direction and we get it on the SDS1004X-E first - who knows?

Btw, the CSV data export issue will be fixed with the next update.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: starlight_tools on May 28, 2019, 11:35:07 pm
Lead me not into temptation, just point the way and I'll find it myself! 

Dang nabbit you guys you pointed the way and kicked me over the edge and even with all the nay sayers I still ordered one of these critters SDS1104X-E.  Due in 2 to 4 days.

This all started when I was offered a Rigol DS1102E from one of my clients that was barely out of the box when her husband passed away.  But it is only two channel!  From there I looked at the Rigol 1054Z but the Siglent SDS1104X-E was only $23 dollars more.

I have been looking for a 4 channel scope for quite awhile.  Most of what I need the scope for is three phase power work, testing RPC's (Rotary Phase Converters), VFD's (Varible Frequency Drives)
 etc so I need the ability to be able to show three phases on the screen at the same time to compare them.

Still doing my homework as to what other probes I will need besides the stock probes.

Walter Townsend, TTDr
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 29, 2019, 12:05:34 am
Lead me not into temptation, just point the way and I'll find it myself! 

Dang nabbit you guys you pointed the way and kicked me over the edge and even with all the nay sayers I still ordered one of these critters SDS1104X-E.  Due in 2 to 4 days.

This all started when I was offered a Rigol DS1102E from one of my clients that was barely out of the box when her husband passed away.  But it is only two channel!  From there I looked at the Rigol 1054Z but the Siglent SDS1104X-E was only $23 dollars more.

I have been looking for a 4 channel scope for quite awhile.  Most of what I need the scope for is three phase power work, testing RPC's (Rotary Phase Converters), VFD's (Varible Frequency Drives)
 etc so I need the ability to be able to show three phases on the screen at the same time to compare them.

Still doing my homework as to what other probes I will need besides the stock probes.

Walter Townsend, TTDr
While the stock probes are rated to 600V @ 10x it would be wise to get some fixed 100x probes not only for their higher voltage rating but also the additional protection they offer the user and the scope.
At the sort of frequencies you'd encounter the cheap ones from eBay or Aliexpress would be fine.


This of course presumes you can probe with a common reference point (mains ground) for all your work however when you can't either 2 units of Siglents 2ch ISFE or a set of differential probes are the preferred and safe solutions.
https://www.siglentamerica.com/accessory/isolated-channel-optional-accessories%EF%BC%88isfe%EF%BC%89/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/accessory/isolated-channel-optional-accessories%EF%BC%88isfe%EF%BC%89/)
https://store.siglentamerica.com/product/isfe-isolated-front-end/ (https://store.siglentamerica.com/product/isfe-isolated-front-end/)

One thing I can't confirm as I haven't checked is if 2 ISFE units will mount side by side onto the 4 BNC inputs and you'd need to check with one of our tech support people to confirm they do.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: starlight_tools on May 29, 2019, 01:48:03 am
Thanks tautech, both 100X probes and differentials are on my list.  Would be nice to know if the isfe probes can be used to isolate all four channels.  Case in point 3 phase Delta Configuration where there is no common ground, as opposed to Wye or Star configuration where there is a common ground point.

Walter Townsend, TTDr
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 29, 2019, 02:27:38 am
Would be nice to know if the isfe probes can be used to isolate all four channels.  Case in point 3 phase Delta Configuration where there is no common ground, as opposed to Wye or Star configuration where there is a common ground point.

Walter Townsend, TTDr
Popped that question to tech support for you/us.
Should have the answer in a few hours.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: plurn on May 29, 2019, 02:28:39 am
...
One thing I can't confirm as I haven't checked is if 2 ISFE units will mount side by side onto the 4 BNC inputs and you'd need to check with one of our tech support people to confirm they do.

Looks too wide to connect two units directly side by side. I wonder if they could be attached with very short coax cables with appropriate bnc connectors on each end without hurting performance.

edit: just realised one of them could be connected upside down so maybe they would fit?

https://www.siglent.eu/isfe-siglent-isolated-front-end-module.html (https://www.siglent.eu/isfe-siglent-isolated-front-end-module.html)
(https://mediacdn.eu/mage/media/catalog/product/cache/11/thumbnail/1920x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/s/i/siglent-isolated-frontend-complete.jpg)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 29, 2019, 03:55:14 am
...
One thing I can't confirm as I haven't checked is if 2 ISFE units will mount side by side onto the 4 BNC inputs and you'd need to check with one of our tech support people to confirm they do.

Looks too wide to connect two units directly side by side. I wonder if they could be attached with very short coax cables with appropriate bnc connectors on each end without hurting performance.

edit: just realised one of them could be connected upside down so maybe they would fit ?
Yes this ^.
More in depth answer to follow soon.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 29, 2019, 04:30:31 am
Initial reply from Siglent indicates 2 units ISFE wouldn't fit on SDS1104X-E however some BNC C-C measurements indicates they will...........just !  :phew:

As plurn has guessed one unit needs to be flipped, 1/ to fit the BNC's and 2/ to expose the USB A socket so to get power to the ISFE.
In an old thread about ISFE we examined their basic performance which is by no means can be called startling however now we have input attenuation to roughly match the ~200x of ISFE reasonable indicative measurements can now be taken and even further improved upon using the custom input attenuation settings X-E DSO's have.

This thread could use some updates however it's a broad look at the capabilities of ISFE:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-isfe-scope-front-end-isolator-any-opinions/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-isfe-scope-front-end-isolator-any-opinions/)


Back to the issue at hand.......well I believe 2 units of ISFE will indeed fit the SDS1104X-E but as I don't have 2 units we need to rely on measurements and here I've marked the center of ch2 and ch3 in pencil and as this photo shows there's basically zero clearance between 2 units.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=748914)

So a little ingenuity may be required to power both units and still have one USB A socket available for screenshots but I guess any USB phone charger should be adequate if its power is clean enough.

A screenshot
20V p-p 1000Hz from SDG1032X
BNC cable

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=748920)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: graybeard on May 29, 2019, 04:36:53 am
Given the limited 1MHz bandwidth of these units there should be no difference in the resulting measurements if they are connected with a pair of short BNC cables.   That seems like the obvious solution to me.
Plus it looks like the units will apply some shear stress on where the BNC connectors soldered to the PCB on the scope.  Thus using short BNC cables seems like the best choice.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 29, 2019, 04:50:25 am
Given the limited 1MHz bandwidth of these units there should be no difference in the resulting measurements if they are connected with a pair of short BNC cables.   That seems like the obvious solution to me.
Plus it looks like the units will apply some shear stress on where the BNC connectors soldered to the PCB on the scope.  Thus using short BNC cables seems like the best choice.
Shear stress is minimized in that Siglent use chassis bolt through bulkhead style BNC's in all their DSO's.
We don't have TDS210/220 BNC style fixing thank heavens.  :phew:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on May 29, 2019, 04:54:45 am
Suppose a stupid question. But is there any reason a siglent scope would not support an externally powered usb hub.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: starlight_tools on May 29, 2019, 05:29:28 am
Lead me not into temptation, just point the way and I'll find it myself! 

Dang nabbit you guys you pointed the way and kicked me over the edge and even with all the nay sayers I still ordered one of these critters SDS1104X-E.  Due in 2 to 4 days.

This all started when I was offered a Rigol DS1102E from one of my clients that was barely out of the box when her husband passed away.  But it is only two channel!  From there I looked at the Rigol 1054Z but the Siglent SDS1104X-E was only $23 dollars more.

I have been looking for a 4 channel scope for quite awhile.  Most of what I need the scope for is three phase power work, testing RPC's (Rotary Phase Converters), VFD's (Varible Frequency Drives)
 etc so I need the ability to be able to show three phases on the screen at the same time to compare them.

Still doing my homework as to what other probes I will need besides the stock probes.

Walter Townsend, TTDr
While the stock probes are rated to 600V @ 10x it would be wise to get some fixed 100x probes not only for their higher voltage rating but also the additional protection they offer the user and the scope.
At the sort of frequencies you'd encounter the cheap ones from eBay or Aliexpress would be fine.


This of course presumes you can probe with a common reference point (mains ground) for all your work however when you can't either 2 units of Siglents 2ch ISFE or a set of differential probes are the preferred and safe solutions.
https://www.siglentamerica.com/accessory/isolated-channel-optional-accessories%EF%BC%88isfe%EF%BC%89/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/accessory/isolated-channel-optional-accessories%EF%BC%88isfe%EF%BC%89/)
https://store.siglentamerica.com/product/isfe-isolated-front-end/ (https://store.siglentamerica.com/product/isfe-isolated-front-end/)

One thing I can't confirm as I haven't checked is if 2 ISFE units will mount side by side onto the 4 BNC inputs and you'd need to check with one of our tech support people to confirm they do.

P4250 or CP-3308R  or B&K PR2000B which would couple to the Siglent better.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 29, 2019, 05:48:59 am
P4250 or CP-3308R  which would couple to the Siglent better.
They're fine for 100x passive probes and give additional protection at mains voltages but either cannot provide isolation if/when required.

Like a truck tractor unit, it's no good to anyone without a trailer to put on the back just as a scope is limited without the right probe to safely do a job.
There's a reasonable selection of differential probes available from several manufacturers, the Pintek DP-25, Daves HVP70 and another from Micsig depending on how deep you pockets are. For high BW and HV you can pay several x the value of an entry level DSO to properly equip them for 3ph mains work.
https://www.eevblog.com/product/hvp70/ (https://www.eevblog.com/product/hvp70/)

And yes, an isolated channel DSO can sidestep the need for differential probes and you can rest assured I've long asked Siglent to develop one.  :horse:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on May 29, 2019, 10:02:07 am
Suppose a stupid question. But is there any reason a siglent scope would not support an externally powered usb hub.
I don’t know how much power it draws, but if the scope is used as a power source, then the chances are quite high that the ground connection of the BNC is used to conduct most of the (negative side) current. Just like a SAG1021 does. One might think, that the connection is really short and almost no voltage will drop. But because those BNC are not made of copper (I assume), the drop might still be some mV’s. I don’t know what the output range is of the probe, but that might be significant.
Having an external power source will be better in that regard.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on May 29, 2019, 10:02:30 am
New broken out protocol trigger commands, there where some with typo's in the string, I've just marked which they where

TRIIC      TRIG_IIC   TRIIC?   TRIG_IIC?
TRSPI      TRIG_SPI   TRSPI?   TRIG_SPI?
TRUART      TRIG_UART   TRUART?   TRIG_UART?
TRCAN      TRIG_CAN   TRCAN?   TRIG_CAN?               
TRLIN      TRIG_LIN   TRLIN?   TRIG_LIN?


TRIIC:SCL   TRIG_IIC:SCL      Command / Query
TRIIC:SDA   TRIG_IIC:SDA      Command / Query
TRIIC:CON   TRIG_IIC:CONDITION   Command / Query
TRIIC:QUAL   TRIG_IIC:QUALIFIER   Command / Query
TRIIC:ADDR   TRIG_IIC:ADDRESS   Command / Query
TRIIC:DATA   TRIG_IIC:DATA      Command / Query
TRIIC:DAT2   TRIG_IIC:DATA2      Command / Query
TRIIC:RW   TRIG_IIC:RW      Command / Query
TRIIC:ALEN   TRIG_IIC:ADDR_LEN   Command / Query
TRIIC:DLEN   TRIG_IIC:DATA_LEN   Command / Query


TRSPI:CLK   TRIG_SPI:CLK      Command / Query
TRSPI:CLK:EDGE   TRIG_SPI:CLK:EDGE   Command / Query
TRSPI:CLK:TIM   TRIG_SPI:CLK:TIME   Command / Query
TRSPI:MOSI   TRIG_SPI:MOSI      Command / Query
TRSPI:MISO   TRIG_SPI:MISO      Command / Query
TRSPI:CSTP   TRIG_SPI:CSTYPE      Command / Query
TRSPI:CS   TRIG_SPI:CS      Command / Query
TRSPI:NCS   TRIG_SPI:NCS      Command / Query
TRSPI:TRTY   TRIG_SPI:TRTY      Command / Query
TRSPI:DLEN   TRIG_SPI:DATA_LEN   Command / Query
TRSPI:BIT   TRIG_SPI:BIT      Command / Query
TRSPI:TRTY   TRIG_SPI:TRTY      Command / Query
TRSPI:DATA   TRIG_SPI:DATA      Command?
TRSPI:CLK:SL            Command?
TRSPI:FRAM            Command?


TRUART:RX   TRIG_UART:RX      Command / Query
TRUART:TX   TRIG_UART:TX      Command / Query
TRUART:TRTY   TRIG_UART:TRTY      Command / Query
TRUART:CON   TRIG_UART:CONDITION   Command / Query
TRUART:QUAL   TRIG_UART:QUALIFIER   Command / Query
TRUART:DATA   TRIG_UART:DATA      Command / Query
TRUART:BAUD   TRIG_UART:BAUD      Command / Query
TRUART:DLEN   TRIG_UART:DATA_LEN   Command / Query
TRUART:PAR   TRIG_UART:PARITY   Command / Query
TRUART:STOP   TRIG_UART:STOP      Command / Query
TRUART:POL   TRIG_UART:POLARITY   Command / Query
TRUART:BIT   TRIG_UART:BIT      Command / Query


TRCAN:CANH   TRIG_CAN:CANH      Command / Query
TRCAN:CANL   TRIG_CAN:CANL      Command / Query
TRCAN:TRTY   TRIG_CAN:TRTY      Command / Query
TRCAN:CON   TRIG_CAN:CONDITION   Command / Query
TRCAN:ID   TRIG_CAN:ID      Command / Query
TRCAN:IDL   TRIG_CAN:ID_LEN      Command / Query
TRCAN:DATA   TRIG_CAN:DATA      Command / Query
TRCAN:DAT2   TRIG_CAN:DATA2      Command / Query
TRCAN:BAUD   TRIG_CAN:BAUD      Command / Query


TRLIN:SRC   TRIG_LIN:SOURCE      Command / Query
TRLIN:CON   TRIG_LIN:CONDITION   Command / Query
TRLIN:ID   TRIG_LIN:ID      Command / Query
TRLIN:DATA   TRIG_LIN:DATA      Command / Query
TRLIN:DAT2   TRIG_LIN:DATA2      Command / Query
TRLIN:DLEN   TRIG_LIN:DATA_LEN   Command / Query
TRLIN:ERR:ID   TRIG_LIN:ERR:ID      Command / Query (typo)
TRLIN:ERR:CHK   TRIG_LIN:ERR:CHECK   Command / Query
TRLIN:ERR:SYNC   TRIG_LIN:SYNC      Command / Query (typo)
TRLIN:ERR:PAR   TRIG_LIN:ERR:PAR   Command / Query
TRLIN:BAUD   TRIG_LIN:BAUD      Command / Query
TRLIN:STAN   TRIG_LIN:STANDARD   Command / Query


TRQL      TRIG_QUALIFY_LIMIT   Command / Query
TRQT      TRIG_QUALIFY_TYPE   Command / Query
TRQS:SR      TRIG_QUALIFY_SET:SOURCE   Command / Query
TRQS:LV      TRIG_QUALIFY_SET:LEVEL   Command / Query
TRQE:SR      TRIG_QUALIFY_EDGE:SOURCE   Command / Query
TRQE:LV      TRIG_QUALIFY_EDGE:LEVEL   Command / Query
TRQE:SL      TRIG_QUALIFY_EDGE:SLOPE   Command / Query


TRDP      TRIG_DROP      Command / Query
TRNR      TRIG_NOISEREJ      Command / Query
TRWT      TRIG_WINDOW_TYPE   Command / Query
TRHD      TRIG_HOLDOFF      Command / Query
TRHDS      TRIG_HOLDOFF_START   Command / Query
TRPL      TRIG_PATTERN_LIMIT   Command / Query
TRTY      TRIG_TYPE      Command / Query
TRSR      TRIG_SOURCE      Command / Query
TRST      TRIG_STATUS      Command / Query
TRFSM      TRIG_FSM      Command / Query
TRPH      TRIG_PATTERN_HOLDOFF   Command / Query
TRPT      TRPT         Command / Query
TRSE      TRIG_SELECT      Command / Query
TRMD      TRIG_MODE      Command / Query
TRWI      TRIG_WINDOW      Command / Query
TRPA      TRIG_PATTERN      Command / Query


SET50
ARM      ARM_ACQUISITION
TRLV?      TRIG_LEVEL?
SAST?      SAMPLE_STATUS?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on May 29, 2019, 10:27:19 am
Hmm, looks like the voltmeter and measurement histogram, and zone triggering features are buried in there too, however they don't seem to have menus. looks promising. Any word on them Performa01? or are they staying 5000 exclusive?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 29, 2019, 12:07:29 pm
Hmm, looks like the voltmeter and measurement histogram, and zone triggering features are buried in there too, however they don't seem to have menus. looks promising. Any word on them Performa01? or are they staying 5000 exclusive?
I cannot  tell for sure, but Histograms and Zone trigger are most definitely midrange (SDS5000X) features and I would be surprised I we'd ever get them in the entry level instruments.

The DVM is just a marketing gag anyway, brought up by the big brands, even though I have to say it is very nicely implemented on the SDS5000X, with histogram and trend plots, but at the end of the day, it is just a very special way to represent automatic measurements.

BTW, I'm glad to report that I've just got a reply from Siglent R&D that they have identified the USB issue and we can expect a fix with the next firmware release!

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on May 29, 2019, 12:46:36 pm
Any word on whether or not the WiFi bug fixes address the fact that the scope has trouble connecting to WiFi networks with spaces or special characters in the name? Does DHCP actually automatically update the IP address? WiFi connectivity has been a serious hindrance for this scope in my experience.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on May 29, 2019, 01:08:13 pm
Performa01, any news on if they can fix the remaining SCPI command Typo's for the next version, I can see they have fixed up a few such as SYSTem:Error? Command, but not all, In case it was lost and buried, Current List remaining on latest version:

:Bandwidth_Limit? only is implemented for C1, and not C2-C4, equally it only returns the result for C4 (short from :BWL is correct and working)
MATH: CURSOR_VALUE? Contains a Space unlike all other similar commands
C3:INVERT_SET? is missing, instead its currently C4:INVERT_SET? (short form C3:INVS is correct and working)
HISTORY_LIST? is missing, instead its currently HISTORY_LIST (short form HSLST? is correct and working)
DIGITAL:LOW8_SWICHT, typo in name, should be DIGITAL:LOW8_SWITCH
DIGITAL:HIST_MODE is a query and should be DIGITAL:HIST_MODE?
C5:COUPLING? typo in name, should be C4:COUPLING?
DIGITAL:RESET_DDR is a query and should be DIGITAL:RESET_DDR?
TRIG_LIN::SYNC typo in name, should be TRIG_LIN:ERR:SYNC
TRIG_LIN:ERR:_ID typo in name, should be TRIG_LIN:ERR:ID

Edit:
EX5:TRIG_LEVEL command and query is currently a duplicate of EX:TRIG_LEVEL, I know this doesnt apply to this model, but likely means it exists in the higher models.
CURSOR_DISPLAYE, typo in command, should be CURSOR_DISPLAY
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on May 30, 2019, 09:31:57 am
Bode Plot II  what is first time published with FW 6.1.33 is really big step to right direction.

As also noted by @Performa01 and @tautech  there is some new functions and also many other improvements.

BodePlot II is now an amazingly good and versatile tool especially considering the Price Range.
I have also feel that they will still develop it better later.

Although it is astoundingly good it still needs some finishing and UI fine tuning to improve operating ergonomics. Yet, even if it were not developed any more, it is a good real tool. It is not just an extra line to the sales brochure. It is a real tool with significant real value. But it need Siglent Signal generator.

BodePLot II Basic limits are same with first generation BodelPlot.
10Hz - 120MHz (or less if generator max is less),  1 phase reference/DUT input level reference and it can handle simultaneously 3 DUT outputs with Phase and Amplitude.
Minimum span is 500Hz and max full span.
In Linear step sweep mode it can use 10 - 500 data points for span in use. (with 500Hz min span, 1Hz step)
In Linear step sweep mode user set center and span and steps in this span.
In Decade (log) sweep mode it can set for down to 2  - up to 275204396 points/decade what can give up to ~500pts for used span. In this mode user set start and stop frequency and points/decade.

It can run in
Channel Gain:Auto mode (better dynamic, slow. It automatically adjust scope input V/div setting during whole sweep depending DUT output level) 
Channel Gain:Hold mode (faster but max dynamic range is less, this mode keep previously set channel V/div settings constant)

Sweep mode can be Simple or Variable level. In variable level mode it use user defined table for sweep level profile. Profile can have max 10 data pairs, for freq and level.

It need perhaps BodePlot II  User Reference Manual  (not these simple nonsense User Manuals). There is so many things, what may confuses an inexperienced user, or if experience is from different device and imagines it to work like another. Of course it can be used with a try-oops-try method but many times it leads to frustration and then barking that it works wrong.

Here is very simple example what do not give lot of information but perhaps show small improvement.
I have adjusted reference (Ch1)  and DUT out (Ch4) Phase difference to zero with sweep starting freq with this DUT setup connected. (It can try adjust using channel Deskew as I did for this image)


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=750120;image)
XTAL test


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=750138;image)
Probe 1x compare


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=750504;image)
Image trace is ugly but it is just only for show max dynamic range using BodePlot maximal level set (6Vpp). During sweep I have adjusted attenuation between DUT-IN and DUT-OUT and attenuation was made using resistors and pot etc with BobPease style (because this I have used low freq) and beginning and end of trace no signal at all. (Ch4 input disconnected). Level steps are random dB's.

Looks like promise about more than 110dB range is not exaggerated.

One more example, now used minimum span, 500Hz with 500 data points (1Hz resolution)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=751341;image)

Due to amount of sample points and quite narrow min span this is quite nice tool for example selecting optimal Crystal's for Crystal ladder filters. It have enough frequency resolution for this. (as can see also in this image)

Trace goes bit over top and bottom. Of course it can set for 20dB div also when it is running and  it display what is out of top and bottom. Also it can movce up and down changing reference position. THese display settings can do when it is running. Most other things can do only when stopped. It is nice if Siglent add some setting between 10 and 20dB/div so that whole dynamic range can also look in one image  with better fit to screen height.





After some unknown time more...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on May 30, 2019, 09:36:31 am
Reserved for continue BP II  because here is so many other discussions about this and that and those and so on...
It may take time before I can more tests and examples. 

Just continue common discussion below this...   
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on May 30, 2019, 09:58:47 am
The dynamic measurement I believe only uses full steps of the Vdiv, in reality they could probably use a sliding scale approach with the fine Vdiv to always keep the signal at about 80% of the ADC scale (maximum resolution) but I agree that would make it take even longer.

My experience with bodeV1 was that the phase had a nasty rollover situation, where if a signal was sat at about 180 degrees offset it would jump top to bottom of the screen despite only 1 degree variance in phase shift. Kind of wondering if there is now a way to unroll the phase shift so once it moves past 180 degrees it keeps counting in that direction. e.g. 190 degrees shift. or atleast set a reference phase offset (currently working onsite so have not dug into this in person yet)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on May 30, 2019, 10:14:04 am
The dynamic measurement I believe only uses full steps of the Vdiv, in reality they could probably use a sliding scale approach with the fine Vdiv to always keep the signal at about 80% of the ADC scale (maximum resolution) but I agree that would make it take even longer.

My experience with bodeV1 was that the phase had a nasty rollover situation, where if a signal was sat at about 180 degrees offset it would jump top to bottom of the screen despite only 1 degree variance in phase shift. Kind of wondering if there is now a way to unroll the phase shift so once it moves past 180 degrees it keeps counting in that direction. e.g. 190 degrees shift. or atleast set a reference phase offset (currently working onsite so have not dug into this in person yet)

Why "believings"...  you can see it even in this XTAL example image what is snap shot just at this position where it use 7.8mV/div (during sweep it change).
Fact, for level measurement they use fine variable V/div.

After 180 degree it jump. So user need keep track about these jumps and with human intelligence position these parts of phase draws to right position if need. There is no internal mechanism for keep track about this so reliably that it can keep always right phase over many phase turns. And I can not see even reason why to start "nutting" and try develop this kind of system.
Also test setup destroy this phase very easy. How to compensate it automatically. It is made for intelligent users who also think and not only give all thinking to machine. Example there is DUT and then example 2m cable delay. Then user sweep from 1MHz to 120MHz. How about DUT phase shift and total phase shift. It come some amount complex system if start also compensate this automatically. Of course all is possible as long as there is no limit in bank balance.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on May 30, 2019, 10:21:23 am
Good to see, and I agree I missed it, been digging to far in the other direction has skewed my thinking a little
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on May 31, 2019, 03:47:22 pm

My experience with bodeV1 was that the phase had a nasty rollover situation, where if a signal was sat at about 180 degrees offset it would jump top to bottom of the screen despite only 1 degree variance in phase shift. Kind of wondering if there is now a way to unroll the phase shift so once it moves past 180 degrees it keeps counting in that direction. e.g. 190 degrees shift. or atleast set a reference phase offset (currently working onsite so have not dug into this in person yet)

This is quite complex problem and I can not see easy way what do not then rise up some problem  when used in many kind of situations. When device under test output is low it is very difficult to detect reliable phase due to noise. Also it need note that there is no continuous reference and dut output. There is not 1 point where these signal can  "agglutinate" when BP start and after then start continuously follow both and calculate phase shift even over many full turns. I can not find how to do it with this kind of machine without some extra hardware.
If add hysteresis then loose accuracy. If add level limiter what user can set so that it do not try measure phase when signal level is under this limit then it do not draw anything in this area.
But always if work under 20MHz, it is important to use channels BW limit. Specially if there exist quite low levels. Like example in my previous image where is 60kHz xtal and dynamic range around 85dB.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on May 31, 2019, 10:28:33 pm
Bode Plot II might be able to provide even more dynamic range if an amplifier is to be measured, or if it’s used for measurements with passive structures that can tolerate the increased power.

Attached there is the measurement of an MI (Marconi Instruments) TF 2154 RF amplifier, capable of delivering some 25dBm (300mW) output power with 27dB gain and 1.5MHz to 520MHz bandwidth.

With the current version of Bode Plot II, we can only measure up to 120MHz, so we are unable to examine the high frequency roll-off of the amplifier and just get a lowpass filter response.

First a relative measurement (Vout/Vin):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=751611;image)
SDS1104X-E_TF2175_Bode_120MHz_27dB_Rel

This bode plot shows 60dB dynamic range, only because the start frequency is far outside the specified bandwidth.

The measurement confirms that we indeed get the specified gain of 27dB within the passband.

The phase response within the passband appears not flat, hence does not match the amplitude response. This is simply because no attempt was made to compensate for the additional signal delay from input to output of the amplifier.

Now let’s have a look at the absolute output (Vout):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=751617;image)
SDS1104X-E_TF2175_Bode_120MHz_27dB_Abs

Output power within the passband is measured as 21dBm. Since the generator level has been set to 0dBm and the amplifier was fed through a resistive 2-way power splitter (6dB loss), the input power was at -6dBm, which not only proves (again) that the specified gain of 27dB is actually achieved but also the absolute output power has been accurately measured by the scope.

Up to 120MHz an amplifier like this wouldn’t provide any real benefit, since e.g. the SDG6052X can deliver close to 24dBm at 120MHz, which is just about 1dB less than the max. output of the Marconi TF 2175. On the other hand, the current version of the Bode Plot II only allows a max. generator amplitude of 19.5dBm, so we could gain another 5dB with the TF 2175 after all.

Should Siglent give us a 500MHz version of the Bode Plot II for the SDS5000X though, the benefit of such an amplifier would be huge, since the output of the SDG6052X is limited to some 0dBm at 500MHz – so we’d gain at least 24dB at that frequency!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on June 01, 2019, 12:29:18 am
Getting to know Bode plot II in latest firmware 6.1.33............

Let's revisit a previous one I'd done with firmware 6.1.20R1
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1435854/#msg1435854 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1435854/#msg1435854)

Again I'll use the bandpass filter tutorial from here:
https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/filter_4.html (https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/filter_4.html)

This is what we should see:
(https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/filter-fil17.gif)

And this exact passive 1KHz to 30KHz bandpass filter:
(https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/filter-fil16.gif)

10 pts/decade for ~30s sweep time.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=751656)

Max 179 pts/decade for ~2 minute sweep time
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=751662)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: plurn on June 01, 2019, 01:51:54 pm
...

FFT:
- better structured UI
- selectable FFT length for easier setup without the need to change the max. record length in the Acquire menu
- up to 8 markers
- configurable search for peaks and harmonics
- table view for the search results

There are still some minor issues that will be sorted with the next update.
...

How awesome is the new FFT in firmware version 6.1.33? Answer = very awesome.

The ability to put markers with measurements on harmonics is very useful - seems to be just one step away from calculating total harmonic distortion (THD) for us. It does not seem to calculate THD yet though.

I don't really know how it is able to show so much dynamic range in FFT with an 8 bit scope. I have normal mode selected in acquire settings and in FFT. Is ERES/averaging on all the time or something for FFT even in normal mode? See attached picture - why is there so much dynamic range shown? Scope is looking at my audio amplifier that is outputting a 477Hz sine wave. If it is valid dynamic range that is very useful.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=752037;image)

Note - there is a good possibility that I have set up something wrong and or misunderstood.
Edit: it does seem to calculate some of the harmonics frequencies wrong sometimes though. For example the 4th harmonic should be 1908Hz rather than 2.05kHz.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on June 01, 2019, 04:56:16 pm
How awesome is the new FFT in firmware version 6.1.33? Answer = very awesome.

The ability to put markers with measurements on harmonics is very useful - seems to be just one step away from calculating total harmonic distortion (THD) for us. It does not seem to calculate THD yet though.

I don't really know how it is able to show so much dynamic range in FFT with an 8 bit scope. I have normal mode selected in acquire settings and in FFT. Is ERES/averaging on all the time or something for FFT even in normal mode? See attached picture - why is there so much dynamic range shown? Scope is looking at my audio amplifier that is outputting a 477Hz sine wave. If it is valid dynamic range that is very useful.
c should be 1908Hz rather than 2.05kHz.
Well, the FFT itself hasn’t changed at all. It’s just the markers and the table that have been added.

Normal mode is the right one for FFT and in fact you should stick to that. The ADC is only 8-bit, but a long FFT improves the S/N-ratio a lot, because the frequency domain is divided into bins where each of them covers only a narrow chunk out of the frequency spectrum, which in turn reduces the noise accordingly.

You should not confuse S/N-ratio with dynamic range though. Even with a low noise level like this, the single tone 1st order dynamic range would only be some 50dB, as is to be expected for an 8bit system.

Thankfully, the single tone test >50dB below the reference level isn’t a very realistic test scenario anyway, so we should look at the much more important dual tone 1st order dynamic test, where the amplitude of the first (reference) tone is close to the reference level and can thus act as a near ideal dither for the much weaker 2nd tone. This implicitly provides a major resolution enhancement. We are going to verify right now that there is actually much more dynamic range than what can originally be expected from just 8 bits…

I’ve also noticed that you did not setup your FFT very well, thus giving away a lot of its potential.
I suggest you have a closer look to the FFT chapter in my review document (parts 6 & 7) here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371782/#msg1371782 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371782/#msg1371782)

This will answer most of your questions and also contains a number of tables for assistance with the optimum setup of the FFT for most practical purposes. However, when I wrote that document, the FFT length selection was not available, so now this can be used instead of adjusting the record length limit in the [Acquire] menu.

First let’s check the FFT at higher frequencies, around 30MHz:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=752151;image)
SDS1104X-E_FFT_128kpts_Dynamic_30MHz

To analyze a signal in the frequency domain, we need a sample rate that is at least twice as high, hence >60MSa/s is required for 30MHz. As you can see, I’ve chosen 100MSa/s which is accomplished by selecting 128k FFT length at a timebase of 100µs/div.

Next I’ve adjusted the center frequency to 30MHz and the horizontal scale to 1MHz/div, so I can watch the frequency span from 25 to 35MHz.

I feed two signals into CH.4 of the scope:

1.   30MHz, 14dBm
2.   31MHz, -66dBm

Normally, I do not use the vertical scale of 20dB/div, but in this case the whole picture shall be revealed at once. With a total display range of 160dB, the setting of the reference level is not critical anymore, so it has been set to 40dBm in order to give some headroom.

I’ve set a 16x averaging to get more stable measurements together with a nicely condensed noise floor. This is not strictly required for higher signal levels, but a valuable tool to make measurements both clearer and look nicer, especially for low level / high dynamic range measurements.

From the peak table we can see that the measurement is not too far off from the true levels. Most importantly, the weak 2nd tone is fairly accurately measured as -66.2dBm. The total dynamic range in this scenario is >80dB and the noise floor is below -70dBm.

Now for the low frequency (audio) stuff:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=752157;image)
SDS1104X-E_FFT_512kpts_Dynamic_500Hz_01

To analyze signals in the audio range, we can assume a bandwidth of 50kHz maximum, which requires a sample rate >100kSa/s. Consequently, I’ve chosen 100kSa/s which is accomplished by selecting 512k FFT length at a timebase of 500ms/div. Note that we’ve now got a frequency resolution of only 190mHz which allows a very precise analysis of what’s going on.

Next I’ve adjusted the center frequency to 500Hz and the horizontal scale to 50Hz/div, so I can watch the frequency span from 250 to 750Hz.

I feed two signals into CH.4 of the scope:

1.   440Hz, 14dBm
2.   500Hz, -56dBm

This time I’ve used a vertical scale of 10dB/div, which hides the noise floor and limits the display range to 80dB, but that is usually not an issue as is demonstrated with the next screenshot. By simply shifting the reference level by 20dB to 0dBm, we can see the signals down to -80dBm and the noise floor gets visible again. The stronger 1st tone is still accurately measured, since other than on a real SA, the reference level here is really nothing more than a display setting.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=752163;image)
SDS1104X-E_FFT_512kpts_Dynamic_500Hz_02

From the peak table we can see that the measurements are once again pretty accurate. The total dynamic range in this scenario is “only” >70dB and the noise floor is below -75dBm.

But we can indeed lower the 2nd tone by another 10dB and see if this still works:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=752169;image)
SDS1104X-E_FFT_512kpts_Dynamic_500Hz_03

We can see that accuracy begins to degrade now for the weak 2nd tone, but still very usable. All in all an 80dB dynamic range is not too bad for only 8 bits.

You may notice some spurious signals here at ~560Hz and 680Hz – these are imperfections from the generator due to the external signal mixing without proper isolation between the generator outputs. To prove that, I’ve switched off the output for the 2nd signal and now everything is clean:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=752175;image)
SDS1104X-E_FFT_512kpts_SpurTest_500Hz

Marker 2 now happens to show the level of the noise floor at -77dBm.

You mentioned automatic distortion measurements … I wouldn’t rule out that we’ll get that someday ;)
Title: 1st use of Bode Plot II
Post by: graybeard on June 01, 2019, 08:20:27 pm
I just tried out the new Bode Plot II with my SDS1104X-E and SDG2042X with a 50KHz lowpass filter I had in my drawer.  I connected both the scope and AWG to a WiFi range extender/router in my lab and assigned them both fixed IP addresses within my local subnet.  The scope immediately recognized the SDG2042X. 

I tried setting the upper frequency to 120MHz, but the it set the upper frequency to 40Mhz which is the upper limit for my SDG2042X.  I set the frequency sweep range from 10Hz to 40MHz with 12 points/decade.  I set the output of the AWG to 5Vp-p with a 50Ω output impedance.  I did this all on the scope without touching the AWG.

The 50KHz lowpass filter is designed to be used on a scope.  It has a 100KΩ input impedance and is designed for a 1MΩ load.  It has a nominal gain of ½ (-6dB).

I connected the output of the filter to channel 3 of the SDS1104X-E.  On the input I put a BNC tee.  One side of the tee was connected to the output 1 of the SDG2042X.  The other side was connected to a 50Ω feed-through termination on the channel 2 input of the SDS1104X-E.

I then turned on the bode plot and it made a very nice response curve of the filter.   I was auto plot ranges were not perfect, so after it ran through the response once I manually set some of the limits for a nicer plot.

(http://diver.net/eevblog/SDS1104X-E/2019.06.01/50KHz_low_pass_filter.png)

I then used the cursor to find the 3dB point of the filter which turned out to be 54.5KHz.

(http://diver.net/eevblog/SDS1104X-E/2019.06.01/50KHz_low_pass_with_x_cursor.png)

The Bode Plot will be very useful for a variety of measurements.  However it does not replace a sweep generator and detector probe for making IF stage adjustments becasue it is far to slow, but will be excellent for a precise measurement of the adjusted stage(s) once done.   

This is a pretty damn nifty feature for such a reasonably priced oscilloscope.  I am somewhat annoyed that the seemingly arbitrary low frequency limit of 10Hz.  It would be nice to be able to go a couple of decades lower down to 100mHz.  Even so, I am very happy with my purchase.

In looking at it further the 10Hz low frequency cutoff is because the Bode Plot mode uses the scopes AC input coupling and 10Hz is high enough not to be rolled off by the input high pass in AC mode.   Although it would be nice to go lower in frequency, the 10HZ limit now makes sense.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: graybeard on June 01, 2019, 08:40:01 pm
You mentioned automatic distortion measurements … I wouldn’t rule out that we’ll get that someday ;)

The usefulness of FFT feature for distortion measurements will be very limited by the 8 bit ADC that digitizes the signal.  High fidelity audio measurements require a minimum of 16 bits, and preferably 24 bits.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on June 01, 2019, 10:23:59 pm
You mentioned automatic distortion measurements … I wouldn’t rule out that we’ll get that someday ;)

The usefulness of FFT feature for distortion measurements will be very limited by the 8 bit ADC that digitizes the signal.  High fidelity audio measurements require a minimum of 16 bits, and preferably 24 bits.
Excellent objection!

I should really have pointed out that despite the fact that we can get a rather decent dynamic range up to 80dB, the linearity is still no better than what a fast 8-bit ADC can deliver. If it’s a very good one, then we can hope for an INL of no more than +/- 1LSB.

Let’s check that, with an ultralow distortion 1kHz sinewave:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=752514;image)
SDS1104X-E_FFT_Harmonics_1kHz

As can be seen, the strongest distortion component is the 2nd harmonic at some -57.7dBc. This alone would cause a distortion figure of 0.13%. While this proves that an 8-bit system certainly isn’t suited for high fidelity audio testing, it at least indicates that the ADCs in the SDS1000X-E aren’t bad at all and the INL is <1 LSB indeed.

This would still be enough for general purpose audio and maybe also some other applications.

After all, most DMMs offer a bunch of fancy functions as well, even though they are far inferior when compared to a dedicated instrument for the same purpose. Yet users demand it (quite obviously even professionals, because otherwise lab bench DMMs would not provide frequency and even capacitance measurement).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: plurn on June 02, 2019, 06:10:44 am
...

Hi Performa01,

Thank you so much for providing all of this information, and instructions for optimising set up for FFT.

I am not surprised that I did not setup my FFT very well. My method for setting it up so far has been by "twiddling the dials" until it looks about right. I will study the FFT part of your review and your post to try and understand this better.

My twiddling the dials method also explains why I thought FFT had improved with this firmware version. When I have used the FFT in the past, I got much less dynamic range and just accepted it as a limitation of an 8 bit oscilloscope. I would have just had it set up even less optimised.

I do find the new markers and the table to be a big convenience. It will save a lot of time compared to trying to measure peaks/harmonics individually.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: testian on June 02, 2019, 07:42:00 pm
Does anybody know how to set the WiFI password if the necessary character is not in selectable?
I am missing the "

I already digged a bit in the file system and found:
 /usr/bin/siglent/usr/wifi/wpa.conf
But it does not affect the password used when connecting.


Changing the password on all other devices is not really an option for me.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on June 02, 2019, 11:05:12 pm
In that case it would be nice if a hexadecimal version of the password was supported.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on June 05, 2019, 07:43:42 am
Does anybody know how to set the WiFI password if the necessary character is not in selectable?
I am missing the "
Confirmed and reported.

The latest 6.1.33 firmware otherwise has given us a significant improvement in WiFi performance if my old beta SDS1104X-E unit is anything to go by.  :phew:
WiFi connection seems very stable now and range is now much improved with the TL_WN725N dongle.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Old Printer on June 05, 2019, 07:19:32 pm
Does anybody know how to set the WiFI password if the necessary character is not in selectable?
I am missing the "
Confirmed and reported.

The latest 6.1.33 firmware otherwise has given us a significant improvement in WiFi performance if my old beta SDS1104X-E unit is anything to go by.  :phew:
WiFi connection seems very stable now and range is now much improved with the TL_WN725N dongle.

My WIFI was poor to non existent with that dongle over about 25 feet but I did have the "Remember IP Address" setting wrong. I went straight to a Ethernet connection rather than mess around with it, and all problems disappeared. I have not used the web interface since, so I look forward to seeing if the firmware update makes a difference. Foe my location running a wire was the easiest alternative.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on July 14, 2019, 12:03:58 am
Any word on whether or not the WiFi bug fixes address the fact that the scope has trouble connecting to WiFi networks with spaces or special characters in the name? Does DHCP actually automatically update the IP address? WiFi connectivity has been a serious hindrance for this scope in my experience.

So I finally had a chance to test this question, and boy was I disappointed.  The update states that PSK keys can be 63 characters long.  Yay right?  I am also happy to report that the DHCP also works, if you can actually get the damn thing connected to the internet in the first place (more about that later).

Well unfortunately the PSK STILL cannot have any special characters OR spaces in it.  Additionally, the SSID ALSO STILL cannot have any special characters OR spaces in it.

This is honestly ridiculous at this point.  It makes buying the wifi adapter completely pointless, given that you have to jump through crazy hoops and modify your wifi router settings (which you may not even have access to in a commercial environment) to get the damn thing to connect.

How can this have been overlooked, especially when they were already working on the WIFI access in this most recent update?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Mr. Scram on July 14, 2019, 12:11:32 am
So I finally had a chance to test this question, and boy was I disappointed.  The update states that PSK keys can be 63 characters long.  Yay right?  I am also happy to report that the DHCP also works, if you can actually get the damn thing connected to the internet in the first place (more about that later).

Well unfortunately the PSK STILL cannot have any special characters OR spaces in it.  Additionally, the SSID ALSO STILL cannot have any special characters OR spaces in it.

This is honestly ridiculous at this point.  It makes buying the wifi adapter completely pointless, given that you have to jump through crazy hoops and modify your wifi router settings (which you may not even have access to in a commercial environment) to get the damn thing to connect.

How can this have been overlooked, especially when they were already working on the WIFI access in this most recent update?
The conclusion may be that these oscilloscopes aren't expected to be used in commercial environments.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 14, 2019, 12:34:00 am
Any word on whether or not the WiFi bug fixes address the fact that the scope has trouble connecting to WiFi networks with spaces or special characters in the name? Does DHCP actually automatically update the IP address? WiFi connectivity has been a serious hindrance for this scope in my experience.

So I finally had a chance to test this question, and boy was I disappointed.  The update states that PSK keys can be 63 characters long.  Yay right?  I am also happy to report that the DHCP also works, if you can actually get the damn thing connected to the internet in the first place (more about that later).

Well unfortunately the PSK STILL cannot have any special characters OR spaces in it.  Additionally, the SSID ALSO STILL cannot have any special characters OR spaces in it.

This is honestly ridiculous at this point.  It makes buying the wifi adapter completely pointless, given that you have to jump through crazy hoops and modify your wifi router settings (which you may not even have access to in a commercial environment) to get the damn thing to connect.

How can this have been overlooked, especially when they were already working on the WIFI access in this most recent update?
Yep, Siglent missed some stuff for the special PSK characters and it's been pointed out to them. We wait for new FW.........
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on July 14, 2019, 02:01:41 am
The conclusion may be that these oscilloscopes aren't expected to be used in commercial environments.

I definitely can understand that, but what about a research environment or academia or eduction? Are we truly supposed to believe that these scopes aren't to be used in either a classroom, a laboratory, or an office environment? All of these generally do not let the user pick a ridiculously restrictive and insecure psk or ssid.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Dundarave on July 14, 2019, 03:41:29 am
The conclusion may be that these oscilloscopes aren't expected to be used in commercial environments.

I definitely can understand that, but what about a research environment or academia or eduction? Are we truly supposed to believe that these scopes aren't to be used in either a classroom, a laboratory, or an office environment? All of these generally do not let the user pick a ridiculously restrictive and insecure psk or ssid.

The inability to make use of “special characters” or blanks hardly qualifies as forcing a “ridiculously restrictive and insecure psk or ssid.”  Most large institutions I’ve encountered avoid using them altogether to avoid the inevitable confusion with visitors or dealing with other non-compliant gear.

63 chars randomly chosen from a set of 36 makes for a pretty sparse possibility matrix.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on July 15, 2019, 02:54:44 am
The inability to make use of “special characters” or blanks hardly qualifies as forcing a “ridiculously restrictive and insecure psk or ssid.”  Most large institutions I’ve encountered avoid using them altogether to avoid the inevitable confusion with visitors or dealing with other non-compliant gear.

63 chars randomly chosen from a set of 36 makes for a pretty sparse possibility matrix.

It's plenty restrictive when the institution's WiFi that you are trying to connect to literally requires special characters in all passwords, and the more serious issue is the lack of spaces allowed in the SSID, which many SSIDs that I have encountered on an institutional basis possess.

Finally, why make something less secure in purpose when it is simple to make it more secure? The argument against it is ridiculous on its face.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tinhead on July 15, 2019, 07:05:18 pm
right, the best is to use only spaces and two special characters at begin and end.

https://blog.stevepaulo.com/your-password-complexity-requirements-suck-7934c4e4b295
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ADJohnson on July 17, 2019, 10:37:15 pm
Siglent America have FW 6.1.33 to download for a SDS1104X-E from May this year, but Siglent EU still has 6.1.26 from September last year.  Is there a reason for this or could I just go ahead and update to 6.1.33 - I’m in the UK with the scope supplied from within the EU?

Thanks,

Andrew
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 18, 2019, 12:56:14 am
Siglent America have FW 6.1.33 to download for a SDS1104X-E from May this year, but Siglent EU still has 6.1.26 from September last year.  Is there a reason for this or could I just go ahead and update to 6.1.33 - I’m in the UK with the scope supplied from within the EU?

Thanks,

Andrew
Welcome to the forum.

Dunno what website you've checked but maybe you were looking at the SDS1202X-E 6.1.26 firmware and not firmware for the 4ch X-E models.  :-//
6.1.33 firmware is there, currently it's the 3rd one down in this list:
https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds1000x-e-series (https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds1000x-e-series)

Note; the Release notes link only applies to the version atop of the list however Release notes applicable to the version you download are in the zipped package.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on July 18, 2019, 04:17:35 am
Siglent America have FW 6.1.33 to download for a SDS1104X-E from May this year, but Siglent EU still has 6.1.26 from September last year.  Is there a reason for this or could I just go ahead and update to 6.1.33 - I’m in the UK with the scope supplied from within the EU?

Thanks,

Andrew

If you still have SDS1104X-E with old FW 6.1.26  new  FW  6.1.33. have lot of improvements.
Remember read update instructions and use USB flash(of course native FAT32) what you really know working with your scope  and finally do (mandatory) self calibration after continuous power on.

This is official Siglent European area

https://www.siglenteu.com/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/)




Siglent.EU (https://www.siglent.eu (https://www.siglent.eu)) is not at all Siglent. Just one individual distributor who try "looks like" real Siglent.




Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ADJohnson on July 18, 2019, 08:29:29 am
Ah! That’s where I was going wrong - Siglent.eu.  It was/is the one that pops up top of search results and it looks real enough.  Feel like an idiot now :)

Thanks guys.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: starlight_tools on July 19, 2019, 05:24:23 am
[attachimg=2]
Initial reply from Siglent indicates 2 units ISFE wouldn't fit on SDS1104X-E however some BNC C-C measurements indicates they will...........just !  :phew:

As plurn has guessed one unit needs to be flipped, 1/ to fit the BNC's and 2/ to expose the USB A socket so to get power to the ISFE.
In an old thread about ISFE we examined their basic performance which is by no means can be called startling however now we have input attenuation to roughly match the ~200x of ISFE reasonable indicative measurements can now be taken and even further improved upon using the custom input attenuation settings X-E DSO's have.

This thread could use some updates however it's a broad look at the capabilities of ISFE:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-isfe-scope-front-end-isolator-any-opinions/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-isfe-scope-front-end-isolator-any-opinions/)


Back to the issue at hand.......well I believe 2 units of ISFE will indeed fit the SDS1104X-E but as I don't have 2 units we need to rely on measurements and here I've marked the center of ch2 and ch3 in pencil and as this photo shows there's basically zero clearance between 2 units.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=748914)

So a little ingenuity may be required to power both units and still have one USB A socket available for screenshots but I guess any USB phone charger should be adequate if its power is clean enough.

A screenshot
20V p-p 1000Hz from SDG1032X
BNC cable

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=748920)




This confirms that two ISFE's will connect and operate on the SDS1104X-E scope with minimal clearance between the two units, although as stated one is upside downs so care has to be taken not to let the electrons fall out. 

Seriously though, I am a bit concerned about the weight of them hanging off the BNC connectors of the scope and if they get pulled in any way it could end up damaging the scope's front end.  I figure that I will try to find a set of BNC to BNC connector cables which will get the cantilevered weight off.  Especially as they will be used in a shop environment, which is more like field work than bench testing work.

Thanks for all your help gang!



Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 19, 2019, 08:57:13 am
Seriously though, I am a bit concerned about the weight of them hanging off the BNC connectors of the scope and if they get pulled in any way it could end up damaging the scope's front end.
Thanks Walter for coming back to us with 4 isolated channels, very cool. Hope they fulfill your needs.

While I understand your concerns for the front end let me explain and show you a little of its construction.
The 4 BNC's pass through part of the steel chassis of which they are fastened to with nuts and the BNC bases are 4 post varieties that are mounted vertically onto the mainboard.
This makes for a fairly rugged construction where damage is more likely to occur to the BNC shell itself rather than its connection or to the mainboard.
Below in Daves teardown from the rear of the mainboard you can see the the 4 posts and center conductor of each BNC and to the far right is the Pass/Fail BNC that's of the same type and fastens onto the rear metal case.

https://youtu.be/Kay4Jk2DHuE?t=313

So yes, maybe for piece of mind short BNC cables will alleviate the risk of damage in a shop environment.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: starlight_tools on July 19, 2019, 04:47:34 pm

Below in Daves teardown from the rear of the mainboard you can see the the 4 posts and center conductor of each BNC and to the far right is the Pass/Fail BNC that's of the same type and fastens onto the rear metal case.

https://youtu.be/Kay4Jk2DHuE?t=313

So yes, maybe for piece of mind short BNC cables will alleviate the risk of damage in a shop environment.
Thanks Rob, I had watched the teardown and had seen that, but between Murphy's law and the laws of physics, which say that if you hang something out in the air, it will get damaged!  Like in machining, you never clamp over air, or building a structure, you never have a point load that is not supported by a foundation under it.
 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MikeLud on July 20, 2019, 03:59:26 pm
Is any one having issues with the Web interface on the new FW using a wireless connection. It used to work fine on the old FW. I am able to get it to work intermittently if I set the IP to DHCP but if I set a static IP it does not work at all. On the scope it shows it is connected for both DHCP and static IP. If I use an Ethernet cable cable it works fine. To rule out the WiFi adapter I tested it on a PC and it works fine. Also tried the both USB ports on the scope.

Thanks,
Mike
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on July 20, 2019, 04:04:52 pm
Are you using the same ip adress for both wifi and ethernet?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MikeLud on July 20, 2019, 04:10:18 pm
For DHCP the IP is whatever gets assigned and using a static IP I tried several different IP's that are not used on my network and are not part of my DHCP pool. Also when trying to use WiFi the Ethernet cable is not connected.

Thanks,
Mike 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on July 20, 2019, 04:35:00 pm
Assuming the ip adress is conform the subnet, does a simple ping also not work?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MikeLud on July 20, 2019, 04:56:38 pm
HendriXML,

My subnet is set 255.255.255.0 for my network and a simple ping does not work.

Thanks,
Mike
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on July 20, 2019, 05:18:51 pm
HendriXML,

My subnet is set 255.255.255.0 for my network and a simple ping does not work.

Thanks,
Mike
Hi,

255.255.255.0 Is the subnet mask, That means xxx.xxx.xxx. must be the same of all the local ip addresses.

Is that the case?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MikeLud on July 20, 2019, 05:38:55 pm
HendriXML,

Yes, the subnet for all devices on the network are the same.

Thanks,
Mike
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on July 20, 2019, 07:08:38 pm
What is the static IP address and the default router?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MikeLud on July 20, 2019, 07:27:56 pm
TK,

Scope Static IP is set to 192.168.1.212 and the router IP is set to 192.168.1.1  I have the DHCP range set in the router to 192.168.1.2 to 192.168.1.199 and use 192.168.1.200+ for static IP's

Thanks,
Mike
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on July 20, 2019, 07:42:05 pm
TK,

Scope Static IP is set to 192.168.1.212 and the router IP is set to 192.168.1.1  I have the DHCP range set in the router to 192.168.1.2 to 192.168.1.199 and use 192.168.1.200+ for static IP's

Thanks,
Mike
The scope will have two ip addresses, one for wifi and one for ethernet. Just to be on the safe side I would make them different, whether the ethernet cable is connected or not.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on July 20, 2019, 07:50:39 pm
On my router I can see what devices are connected to WiFi, doesn't the scopes adapter show up there?

Also it is not blocked (or not in the whitelist) by its mac address?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on July 20, 2019, 08:14:04 pm
Maybe even disable the ethernet on the scope (and reboot).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on July 20, 2019, 08:34:36 pm
TK,

Scope Static IP is set to 192.168.1.212 and the router IP is set to 192.168.1.1  I have the DHCP range set in the router to 192.168.1.2 to 192.168.1.199 and use 192.168.1.200+ for static IP's

Thanks,
Mike
The scope will have two ip addresses, one for wifi and one for ethernet. Just to be on the safe side I would make them different, whether the ethernet cable is connected or not.

You shouldn't have both scope's WIFI and ETH addresses in the same network, if both are enabled.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on July 20, 2019, 08:41:55 pm
TK,

Scope Static IP is set to 192.168.1.212 and the router IP is set to 192.168.1.1  I have the DHCP range set in the router to 192.168.1.2 to 192.168.1.199 and use 192.168.1.200+ for static IP's

Thanks,
Mike
The scope will have two ip addresses, one for wifi and one for ethernet. Just to be on the safe side I would make them different, whether the ethernet cable is connected or not.

You shouldn't have both scope's WIFI and ETH addresses in the same network, if both are enabled.
+1
it receives the ping packet but then doesn't know which interface to use to reply... but is there any way to disable one interface?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on July 20, 2019, 08:52:00 pm
+1
it receives the ping packet but then doesn't know which interface to use to reply... but is there any way to disable one interface?

The wifi for sure, just don't insert it. :)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on July 20, 2019, 09:33:18 pm
TK,

Scope Static IP is set to 192.168.1.212 and the router IP is set to 192.168.1.1  I have the DHCP range set in the router to 192.168.1.2 to 192.168.1.199 and use 192.168.1.200+ for static IP's

Thanks,
Mike
The scope will have two ip addresses, one for wifi and one for ethernet. Just to be on the safe side I would make them different, whether the ethernet cable is connected or not.

You shouldn't have both scope's WIFI and ETH addresses in the same network, if both are enabled.
+1
it receives the ping packet but then doesn't know which interface to use to reply... but is there any way to disable one interface?
Each interface should have it's own ip-address so who would return should not be a problem. How ever I think implementing "services" on multiple interfaces is not trivial. So I can imagine only one (primary) interface get the services behind them. Maybe the first that gets an IP address, hence the difference between dhcp/static. But thats guessing, with a perfect implementation both interfaces could be used.

However I even experienced issues using only ethernet, like a SCPI session that gets broken, when using the web service simultaneously. (Solution: close the web-page)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on July 20, 2019, 09:48:15 pm
Each interface should have it's own ip-address so who would return should not be a problem. How ever I think implementing "services" on multiple interfaces is not trivial. So I can imagine only one (primary) interface get the services behind them. Maybe the first that gets an IP address, hence the difference between dhcp/static. But thats guessing, with a perfect implementation both interfaces could be used.

However I even experienced issues using only ethernet, like a SCPI session that gets broken, when using the web service simultaneously. (Solution: close the web-page)

As you say, all depends on the services/app running in the scope. I don't believe Siglent would go to the effort of devising such a thing just because someone wants to use both interfaces in the same network.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on July 20, 2019, 10:07:39 pm
Each interface should have it's own ip-address so who would return should not be a problem. How ever I think implementing "services" on multiple interfaces is not trivial. So I can imagine only one (primary) interface get the services behind them. Maybe the first that gets an IP address, hence the difference between dhcp/static. But thats guessing, with a perfect implementation both interfaces could be used.

However I even experienced issues using only ethernet, like a SCPI session that gets broken, when using the web service simultaneously. (Solution: close the web-page)

As you say, all depends on the services/app running in the scope. I don't believe Siglent would go to the effort of devising such a thing just because someone wants to use both interfaces in the same network.
But it would be nice the UI would give insight in what interface is active, or let the user select one.  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 20, 2019, 10:58:59 pm
But it would be nice the UI would give insight in what interface is active, or let the user select one.  :-+
It does and always has.
Bottom right corner of the display shows when LAN or WiFi is selected and if they each are active.
The WiFi signal strength indicator will be grey'ed out when out of range and the LAN indicator shows a small red x when not connected.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on July 20, 2019, 11:26:57 pm
But it would be nice the UI would give insight in what interface is active, or let the user select one.  :-+
It does and always has.
Bottom right corner of the display shows when LAN or WiFi is selected and if they each are active.
The WiFi signal strength indicator will be grey'ed out when out of range and the LAN indicator shows a small red x when not connected.
I don't have the adapter and I won't get one either. Happy with ethernet. But I can imagine it doesn't show which of the interface actually works. (Assuming only one can)
Having an extra indication and a guide in the manual to solve the above issue would be  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MikeLud on July 20, 2019, 11:29:53 pm
I think I figured out what my issue is. I have a router and access point using the same SSID and the scope does not like seeing two of the same SSID. All of my other wireless devices on the network has no issues with two of the same SSID. If I power off the access point the scope has no issues.

To All Thanks,

Mike
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 20, 2019, 11:41:09 pm
But it would be nice the UI would give insight in what interface is active, or let the user select one.  :-+
It does and always has.
Bottom right corner of the display shows when LAN or WiFi is selected and if they each are active.
The WiFi signal strength indicator will be grey'ed out when out of range and the LAN indicator shows a small red x when not connected.
I don't have the adapter and I won't get one either. Happy with ethernet. But I can imagine it doesn't show which of the interface actually works. (Assuming only one can)
It shows one or the other, only the active one (one selected) not both.
Quote
Having an extra indication and a guide in the manual to solve the above issue would be  :-+
Yep the manual should show the WiFi indicator as a example for users and I'll ask Siglent to include this in their next manual update.

This screenshot shows the WiFi ON but the signal indication is greyed out due to being out of range from my WiFi connection. (in another building)
Seen next to the USB drive indication.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=790608)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on July 20, 2019, 11:43:58 pm
Good that you found the issue  :-+

Also  :-+ for the good indication of what's active.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 20, 2019, 11:49:14 pm
Good that you found the issue  :-+

Also  :-+ for the good indication of what's active.
Well when I looked back it had linked.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=790614)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MikeLud on July 21, 2019, 05:33:58 pm
I think I figured out what my issue is. I have a router and access point using the same SSID and the scope does not like seeing two of the same SSID. All of my other wireless devices on the network has no issues with two of the same SSID. If I power off the access point the scope has no issues.

To All Thanks,

Mike
I was able to get the scope to work with both the router and access point power up and using the same SSID. The original settings had the access point using channel 4 (the weaker signal for the scope) and the router using channel 11 (the stronger signal for the scope). To get the scope working I changed the channel setting for the router to channel 1 (so the scope uses this channel first) and the access point to channel 6.

Mike
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MikeLud on July 21, 2019, 06:00:33 pm
While trouble shooting my wireless connection issue I found something interesting. If you have the scope set for a wireless connection and using a static IP it also gets a DHCP IP. See photos below, scope is set to a static IP of 192.168.1.212 also the scope is getting a DHCP IP of 192.168.1.168.

[attach=4]
[attach=5]
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on July 21, 2019, 06:57:36 pm
 :scared:

Why do you think IP 192.168.1.168 is scope? 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MikeLud on July 21, 2019, 07:04:24 pm
:scared:

Why do you think IP 192.168.1.168 is scope?

Look at the IP at the top of the photo and in the LAN Configuration.
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on July 21, 2019, 07:15:54 pm
But you are using ETH and WIFI, right?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on July 21, 2019, 07:24:45 pm
While trouble shooting my wireless connection issue I found something interesting. If you have the scope set for a wireless connection and using a static IP it also gets a DHCP IP. See photos below, scope is set to a static IP of 192.168.1.212 also the scope is getting a DHCP IP of 192.168.1.168.

(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

That page is for the LAN config, which is the ethernet cable. the 168 address will be for your WiFi, therefore 2 addresses.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MikeLud on July 21, 2019, 07:25:56 pm
No, just WiFi, the Ethernet is not connected
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Dundarave on July 21, 2019, 07:27:00 pm
When I was playing around checking the scope’s WiFi vs Ethernet capabilities, I seem to recall discovering that you could only ever have one or the other active, and I had to use different IP addresses for each.

This may have changed with the latest firmware, but worth checking out.

The remote response on the browser was always so much better over Ethernet, I only rarely use WiFi.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on July 21, 2019, 07:27:20 pm
No, just WiFi, the Ethernet is not connected

Hmm, indeed very odd.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 21, 2019, 07:28:06 pm
No, just WiFi, the Ethernet is not connected
Yep, cause you have static settings for each.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MikeLud on July 21, 2019, 07:35:32 pm
I have only the WiFi enabled set to a static IP of 192.168.1.212 and no Ethernet cable connected. With this setup I can ping both IP 192.168.1.212 and 192.168.1.168 also I can navigate to both IP's with a Web Browser.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on July 21, 2019, 07:39:48 pm
Based on your last info, my only conclusion is that the scope must be routing the IP packets between both IP stacks internally.

If you get me a 3rd IP than I'll be amazed!!!  :-DD
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 21, 2019, 07:42:59 pm
Based on your last info, my only conclusion is that the scope must be routing the IP packets between both IP stacks internally.

If you get me a 3rd IP than I'll be amazed!!!  :-DD
That just might be possible too !

2 saved settings then turn DHCP ON to get a 3rd auto negotiated IP but don't Save it.  :P
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MikeLud on July 21, 2019, 07:53:25 pm
After thinking about it maybe the USB wireless adapter is getting the DHCP IP 192.168.1.168 and the scope is using the static IP of 192.168.1.212. Also the USB wireless adapter has its own MAC address different from the scope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on July 21, 2019, 07:57:23 pm
After thinking about it maybe the USB wireless adapter is getting the DHCP IP 192.168.1.168 and the scope is using the static IP of 192.168.1.212. Also the USB wireless adapter has its own MAC address different from the scope.

I thought you already knew that!  The question is you accessing both IPs with just one connection.  The scope behaves as having an internal network switch, as you configured both interfaces in the same network. Nice.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 21, 2019, 08:00:33 pm
After thinking about it maybe the USB wireless adapter is getting the DHCP IP 192.168.1.168 and the scope is using the static IP of 192.168.1.212. Also the USB wireless adapter has its own MAC address different from the scope.

I thought you already knew that!  The question is you accessing both IPs with just one connection.  The scope behaves as having an internal network switch, as you configured both interfaces in the same network. Nice.
Nope, it can only use one or the other not both at once.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on July 21, 2019, 08:12:05 pm
Nope, it can only use one or the other not both at once.

Yes, but through one interface you can "see" the other...

Which poses a problem: if you have all the network configured with DHCP, connected to the scope only via WIFI, but you have a static IP in  the scope's ETH interface (as seems to be the case), one can have a problems of collision between IPs. Must choose DHCP pool with care or have both scope's interfaces configured with DHCP.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 21, 2019, 08:32:09 pm
Nope, it can only use one or the other not both at once.

Yes, but through one interface you can "see" the other...

Which poses a problem: if you have all the network configured with DHCP, connected to the scope only via WIFI, but you have a static IP in  the scope's ETH interface (as seems to be the case), one can have a problems of collision between IPs. Must choose DHCP pool with care or have both scope's interfaces configured with DHCP.
It might seem so but what you cannot see from MikeLud's pics when in webserver mode, only the settings relevant to the active connection type selected on the instrument (WiFi or LAN) can be seen. To see the other it must be selected, working and active.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on July 21, 2019, 09:05:51 pm
I don't want to insist, tautech, but the fact is he can ping both interfaces at the same time and reach the webserver via both IPs at the same time .
Title: Odd display glitch on SDS1104X-E
Post by: Illusionist on July 29, 2019, 08:32:26 pm
A few days ago I was watching the separation of some pulses, and started getting very odd display glitches. They lasted for around three seconds and repeated at a similar interval. They continued to repeat until I adjusted the trigger level, just a touch. Then things would be fine for a while (10-15 minutes) but the glitches returned. I'm certain there was nothing like the display in my signals! I made no other adjustments the whole while and wasn't doing anything 'clever' with the 'scope.

It hasn't happened like that since, although I do see an occasional (every few minutes or so) very quick glitch, as if a single frame of the display has gone a bit haywire. Blink and you miss it.

Has anyone seen anything like this? I'm a bit concerned my new 'scope is faulty.

This is the sort of display I was watching, with the edges moving relative to each other:

[attach=1]

And this is what the glitches looked like. That first one's a killer:

[attach=4]

[attach=3]

[attach=2]
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tinhead on July 30, 2019, 05:47:01 pm
someone here with SAG1021 and 6.1.33 Firmware installed?

When i try to import wave from my SDS1204X-E, in EasyWave error popups and the wave is corrupted:

[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]



Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tinhead on August 01, 2019, 11:08:27 am
Another interessting behaviour is, i can save waves created in EasyWave in SDS Memory, they can be selected later from the read/send wave menu in EasyWave. I can see them over Telnet in usr Directory as well. Sure, they can't be selected from menu on SDS, nor deleted, but they has been stored and can be still selected with SCPI or EasyWave after SDS has been rebooted.

Based on Performa01 review "There is just no writeable permanent memory in this device, so we need to use an USB stick to store the waveform on the PC." -> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1432667/#msg1432667 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1432667/#msg1432667)

and Siglent's not very clear Statement -> https://www.siglentamerica.com/operating-tip/waveform-capture-regeneration-using-easywave-software-siglent-oscilloscope-awg-option/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/operating-tip/waveform-capture-regeneration-using-easywave-software-siglent-oscilloscope-awg-option/)

i thought one can't save waves with EasyWave on SDS, but that seems to be not the case, at least with 6.1.33 Firmware.

[attachimg=1]

To read them via SCPI call

STL? user

which returns for the two i saved "STL WVNM,wave,User", where "wave" and "User" are wave names created in Easy Wave

[attachimg=3]

To call such user created wave from SDS Memory via SCPI one have to call it via:

C1:ARWV NAME, User

or

C1:ARWV NAME, wave

and the wave will get selected

[attachimg=2]
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 22, 2019, 01:55:11 am
How awesome is the new FFT in firmware version 6.1.33? Answer = very awesome.
Yep.

Just revisiting FFT to set the scope up properly for an upcoming industry display.

Signal= SSG3021X LF output 1MHz 0dB terminated into a Tek 50 ohm BNC feedthrough.

SDS1104X-E FFT with full Marker table ON. All 8 markers used.
Note the fundamental (marker 2) @ 0dB via unknown BNC cable and Tek termination is just 25 mili dB down.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=816759)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: exe on August 25, 2019, 04:06:02 pm
What does the first marker display?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 25, 2019, 08:20:25 pm
What does the first marker display?
0Hz.

I only did it like that to show the FFT span was from 0-10 MHz while we all know the first marker wouldn't be sitting @ -22dB if the sweep had started at 100 Hz as there wouldn't be such a peak.
You can just see the frequency graticules across the top of the plot.
Markers were manually placed but if selecting Peak Markers from the FFT menu they all will be pushed right one peak and 0 Hz wouldn't have a marker on it.

Make sense ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: graybeard on September 09, 2019, 04:37:26 pm
When will there be a firmware release update that fixes the lack of a trigger point in the data file?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: graybeard on September 10, 2019, 02:51:33 pm
When will there be a firmware release update that fixes the lack of a trigger point in the data file?

I am happy with the scope except for this fundamental flaw in the data file structure.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: helloitsme on September 15, 2019, 02:23:24 pm
Hello everybody, I am new to this forum.
I have a doubt with my new 1204X-E oscilloscope. Can somebody please check if, with the probe set at 1X, probing the internal square wave reference generator, the wave shown in the screen is totally wrong and the verical position knob stops working, when setting vertical sensitivity 100mV/div and higher, due very likely to overload, since if I switch the probe to 10X everything works fine?

Thank you in advance
Luca
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on September 15, 2019, 02:37:29 pm
Hello everybody, I am new to this forum.
I have a doubt with my new 1204X-E oscilloscope. Can somebody please check if, with the probe set at 1X, probing the internal square wave reference generator, the wave shown in the screen is totally wrong and the verical position knob stops working, when setting vertical sensitivity 100mV/div and higher, due very likely to overload, since if I switch the probe to 10X everything works fine?

Thank you in advance
Luca
The signal is distorted but the vertical knob works just fine.  Why would you set the vertical sensitivity to overload?  What is the use case?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: helloitsme on September 15, 2019, 04:40:59 pm
Hy TK, yes for sure it's no use. But I have just purchased my scope used, and wanted to make sure that it is ok. May you please have a look at the attached pictures and tell me if they look "normal" to you? Many thanks.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: graybeard on September 15, 2019, 04:46:09 pm
Hello everybody, I am new to this forum.
I have a doubt with my new 1204X-E oscilloscope. Can somebody please check if, with the probe set at 1X, probing the internal square wave reference generator, the wave shown in the screen is totally wrong and the verical position knob stops working, when setting vertical sensitivity 100mV/div and higher, due very likely to overload, since if I switch the probe to 10X everything works fine?

Thank you in advance
Luca

By driving the waveform way off screen you are hard clipping in the amplifier chain and driving it into a regime it was not designed to operate.  The resultant waveform you see is the amplifier recovering from the operator abuse.  Keep the entire waveform on screen and it will work correctly.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: helloitsme on September 15, 2019, 05:06:18 pm

By driving the waveform way off screen you are hard clipping in the amplifier chain and driving it into a regime it was not designed to operate.  The resultant waveform you see is the amplifier recovering from the operator abuse.  Keep the entire waveform on screen and it will work correctly.
[/quote]

Sure. Just wanted to make sure it was simply due to dynamic limitation. Because the difference from 200mV/div to 100mV/div is rather abrupt.
That must probably be due to the fact that when switching from 200mV/div to 100mV/div a preamplifier kicks in.
May be it's me being more used to analog scopes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on September 15, 2019, 05:38:58 pm
Hy TK, yes for sure it's no use. But I have just purchased my scope used, and wanted to make sure that it is ok. May you please have a look at the attached pictures and tell me if they look "normal" to you? Many thanks.
Yes, they look "normal" to me.  My unit does the same.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: graybeard on September 15, 2019, 05:40:11 pm
Sure. Just wanted to make sure it was simply due to dynamic limitation. Because the difference from 200mV/div to 100mV/div is rather abrupt.
That must probably be due to the fact that when switching from 200mV/div to 100mV/div a preamplifier kicks in.
May be it's me being more used to analog scopes.

If you drive an analog scope hard enough it will do something similar.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: helloitsme on September 15, 2019, 06:28:04 pm
Yes, I'm asking too much to that poor front end.
Thank you guys  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: graybeard on September 15, 2019, 06:36:32 pm
Yes, I'm asking too much to that poor front end.
Thank you guys  :-+

The front end good enough for it's designed purpose.   There is nothing poor about it. It works.
I have, use, and have used many scopes; from old Tek tube scopes, HP, Agilent, R&S, and even Keysight 33 GHz real time scopes.  The Siglent is an excellent scope for the price and I am very happy with mine.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on September 15, 2019, 08:15:19 pm
Yes, I'm asking too much to that poor front end.
Thank you guys  :-+

The front end good enough for it's designed purpose.   There is nothing poor about it. It works.
I have, use, and have used many scopes; from old Tek tube scopes, HP, Agilent, R&S, and even Keysight 33 GHz real time scopes.  The Siglent is an excellent scope for the price and I am very happy with mine.
I dont think helloitsme is saying it is a poorly designed front end. He says it is poor because he is overloading it
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: helloitsme on September 15, 2019, 08:50:40 pm
In fact, that's exactly what I was meaning to say. "Poor" is because I was abusing it, not a judging statement of any kind. Besides, I am happy to have also your confirmation that I made the right choice purchasing this scope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on September 28, 2019, 05:09:21 pm
[ BUG ]
I found an interesing bug. The vertical cursor lines are aligned to the grid lines and the horizontal are not. It happens on all the channels with different vertical scales.

Attached the screenshots and zoom in on the cursor lines.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on September 28, 2019, 07:46:25 pm
Nice catch! Makes you wonder what's true, grid or cursor.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on September 28, 2019, 08:29:54 pm
Quote
The vertical cursor lines are aligned to the grid lines and the horizontal are not. It happens on all the channels with different vertical scales.

Let´s see if I could confirm it on monday, we got a siglent on work.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on September 28, 2019, 08:50:02 pm
[ BUG ]
I found an interesing bug. The vertical cursor lines are aligned to the grid lines and the horizontal are not. It happens on all the channels with different vertical scales.

Attached the screenshots and zoom in on the cursor lines.
BTW, the background of the window with cursors data is still awful because the text inside is often unreadable. I think it's not the first time I mention it but it seems that I'm the only one whom it annoys.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on October 05, 2019, 01:50:50 pm
Quote
The vertical cursor lines are aligned to the grid lines and the horizontal are not. It happens on all the channels with different vertical scales.

Let´s see if I could confirm it on monday, we got a siglent on work.
Did you try it?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on October 05, 2019, 02:20:28 pm
Not yet, it was in use - forthcoming monday should be possible.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on October 05, 2019, 05:11:07 pm
[ BUG ]
I found an interesing bug. The vertical cursor lines are aligned to the grid lines and the horizontal are not. It happens on all the channels with different vertical scales.

Attached the screenshots and zoom in on the cursor lines.
I don't understand this "bug".  Aren't you supposed to move the cursor lines to where you want the X1 - X2 or Y1 - Y2 lines to be using the multifunction knob?  When you move them, you can match them to the grid, but most of the time you will align them to where you want to measure.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on October 05, 2019, 06:44:01 pm
1V cursor should be at 1 Volt gridline, not a pixel (1/25 of V/div) below that.

When measuring a 1 Volt sine the cursor would be placed too high. Thus giving a wrong value. (Or maybe the gridlines are off. Then using the gridlines as a reference would give a wrong value)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on October 05, 2019, 07:42:30 pm
1V cursor should be at 1 Volt gridline, not a pixel (1/25 of V/div) below that.
Vertical:
1 pixel = 1/50 div;
1 LSB = 1/25 div; => 1 LSB = 2 pixel;
;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: graybeard on October 05, 2019, 09:56:41 pm
Is there any update on when new firmware will be released that fixes the lack of trigger reference in the data files?

When will there be a firmware release update that fixes the lack of a trigger point in the data file?

I am happy with the scope except for this fundamental flaw in the data file structure.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on October 05, 2019, 11:23:02 pm
1V cursor should be at 1 Volt gridline, not a pixel (1/25 of V/div) below that.
Vertical:
1 pixel = 1/50 div;
1 LSB = 1/25 div; => 1 LSB = 2 pixel;
;)
:-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on October 05, 2019, 11:27:29 pm
Is there any update on when new firmware will be released that fixes the lack of trigger reference in the data files?

When will there be a firmware release update that fixes the lack of a trigger point in the data file?

I am happy with the scope except for this fundamental flaw in the data file structure.

I process the SCPI wavedata myself. Which give a lot of possibilities, and independence of what the Siglent tool can or can't do.
Slowly the scripts around my devices are maturing. This is an outdated example:
https://github.com/HendriXML/XMLScripts-Common-VISA/blob/master/VISA%20Siglent%20SDS1104X.xml (https://github.com/HendriXML/XMLScripts-Common-VISA/blob/master/VISA%20Siglent%20SDS1104X.xml)
(Newer version supports attenuation).
One problem is that it is written in a "language" which is not that popular. However it can still be an example on how to process the wave data in more detail then the programming manual shows.
In the procedure LoadSummedFrameSamplesFromStream the acquire context (VDiv, HDiv, HorizontalOffset) is read from the data, instead of querying the device. (This is not documented by Siglent)
The WaveCapureToFile procedure needs updating in that regard. But that procedure creates very usable xml files, which IMO are better readable by Excel than CSV.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on October 09, 2019, 12:58:26 pm
I'm in the process of creating XML data, which have the time zeroed at the triggermoment using the data acquired using the C1:WF? ALL command.

Because the programming manual of the SDS1104X-E is very limited, I was glad to find the following:
http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/manuals/wa1k2k_remote-control_manual.pdf (http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/manuals/wa1k2k_remote-control_manual.pdf)

However I cannot find the exact starting time in such a way that it will be 0 when it reaches the trigger moment. It seems to be exactly 5 us (5E-06) off.

The calculation I use for the starting time is the following:
Time:= HOffset - NumberOfPoints * TimePerSample * 0.5

Which essentially says that there's 50% pre trigger points and 50% after trigger points. Which can be shifted using a trigger delay.

Using the manual though which states:
Code: [Select]
<180> HORIZ_OFFSET: double ; trigger offset for the first sweep of the trigger, seconds between the trigger and the first data point

I should use only that value. But that value contains the trigger delay set in the user interface. Apparently Siglent choose to use this field in another way.

But the question for me is now where could this mismatching 5 us come from? Is the pretrigger time always 5 us longer?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on October 09, 2019, 01:08:01 pm
It's not always exactly 5 uS. When using 140 kpts instead of 14 kpts it is 4,86 us.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on October 09, 2019, 04:04:10 pm
The zero point offset I get can also be seen on the scope screen. The trigger spike is then also slightly to the right. If someone could explain why this is, then maybe a method can be derived to undo that.
Using higher sample rates, the offset does become smaller. But that's absolute, relatively it still pretty large.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on October 09, 2019, 05:19:45 pm
I feel  :palm:

When I was thinking about this, I thought to myself did you double check the channel it was triggering on?

No...

The triggering channel can be even seen on the screen...

The good news is that the script seems ok now. I'll put it in a new GitHub repository and create another thread, in which it could be discussed.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on October 10, 2019, 01:16:58 am
I made a new thread for those who like to see, or discuss the script.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/automated-wave-capture-for-siglent-sds1104x-e-and-sds1204x-e-dsos/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/automated-wave-capture-for-siglent-sds1104x-e-and-sds1204x-e-dsos/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: philtulju on October 12, 2019, 06:42:09 am
Does anyone know if there is a way to initiate a "Force Trig" manual trigger on this scope? I'm missing that function as a front-panel button compared to my Tek TDS.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on October 12, 2019, 07:17:20 am
Does anyone know if there is a way to initiate a "Force Trig" manual trigger on this scope? I'm missing that function as a front-panel button compared to my Tek TDS.
Interesting - you are the first in many years to raise this topic ;)

The current Siglent DSOs don't have this, however there's a workaround. Just set the trigger source to "AC Line" and use the "Single" button to force a trigger. This will work even when there is no signal present at all.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on October 12, 2019, 09:01:35 am
Is pressing the stop button also not a way to do "a manual trigger"?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: n3mmr on October 13, 2019, 08:01:17 am
As of the 6.1.33 FW, several (minor?) parts of Siglent's published User Guide, and possibly the Service manual, have become inaccurate and/or incomplete.

Is there some complementary writeup available detailing the changes, somewhere?

I think Performa01 or possibly someone else wrote lots of docs on at least some aspects of this scope. Have those pdfs been updated to reflect the changes in the later FW versions? And who wrote them and where are they? :-)

Is Siglent planning to update their own docs?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on October 13, 2019, 12:31:41 pm
I made a new thread for those who like to see, or discuss the script.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/automated-wave-capture-for-siglent-sds1104x-e-and-sds1204x-e-dsos/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/automated-wave-capture-for-siglent-sds1104x-e-and-sds1204x-e-dsos/)
I've added another script, which allows for multi segments averaging / peak detect. When used with some added noise this can create hi resolution diagrams. Like below.

The min/max curves show what the "bit-steps" normally would be. The red curve is the average of 128 cycles/segments.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Willem2018 on October 13, 2019, 03:34:14 pm
I have made some I2C experiments with my nice SDS 1104X-E scope and have a question about the record length of I2C data.
I send I2C data from an Arduino Pro Mini to a MPC4725 12 bit DAC on slave address 0x64 followed by the update command byte 0x40. After each update 0x40 follow 2 bytes DAC data from 0x00/0x00 to 0x26/0x26  (total 117 bytes, from 0Volt to approx. 0.5V) .
If I decode this data on my SDS 1104X-E  I can see only the first 66  bytes in the Long Data window, please see screenshot_1.
Question: is 66 the maximum I2C record length?

Another I2C question I have is about the data in the bottom (blue) data line, please see screenshot_2. Here the time base for the same data is 200usec/div.
As you can see the bottom data line is a fragment of the long data window. If I turn the Y-position to the left to see more data the complete data suddenly disappear, see screenshot_3.
Is this a bug in the scope software?

Many thanks in advance!

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: JackJones on October 13, 2019, 05:46:27 pm
Testing 123
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on October 14, 2019, 05:43:31 am
Testing 123
I have made some I2C experiments with my nice SDS 1104X-E scope and have a question about the record length of I2C data.
I send I2C data from an Arduino Pro Mini to a MPC4725 12 bit DAC on slave address 0x64 followed by the update command byte 0x40. After each update 0x40 follow 2 bytes DAC data from 0x00/0x00 to 0x26/0x26  (total 117 bytes, from 0Volt to approx. 0.5V) .
If I decode this data on my SDS 1104X-E  I can see only the first 66  bytes in the Long Data window, please see screenshot_1.
Question: is 66 the maximum I2C record length?

Another I2C question I have is about the data in the bottom (blue) data line, please see screenshot_2. Here the time base for the same data is 200usec/div.
As you can see the bottom data line is a fragment of the long data window. If I turn the Y-position to the left to see more data the complete data suddenly disappear, see screenshot_3.
Is this a bug in the scope software?

Many thanks in advance!



Somehow this thread is stuck if try open this page 60
After some moderator find what is this stuck problem, please remove this My message.
Yep, reported to the Mods a little while ago.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Willem2018 on October 14, 2019, 07:46:06 am
A few minutes ago I replied to the latest post on page 61 with the 3 images and again I received the error message:

504 Gateway Time-out
------------------------
   nginx

What's going wrong???
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on October 14, 2019, 08:04:07 am
A few minutes ago I replied to the latest post on page 61 with the 3 images and again I received the error message:

504 Gateway Time-out
------------------------
   nginx

What's going wrong???
P60 is broken, possibly from an upload with a bad/wrong file extension or something.
Our resident server wizard gnif will sort it when he can get to it.

In the meanwhile we ask that everyone double checks any uploads before attempting to add them to any posts.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Willem2018 on October 14, 2019, 12:55:05 pm
Maybe this additional info will help.
The three images I attached are directly from my Siglent SDS 1104X-E (software version 6.1.33)
via USB (EasyScopeX version 100R001B02D01P20) and have the extension PNG.

Each are 750kB.

Success with solving the upload problem!!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: StillTrying on October 14, 2019, 01:29:08 pm
via USB (EasyScopeX version 100R001B02D01P20) and have the extension PNG.
Each are 750kB.

It looks like all 3 of your .PNGs are .BMPs with the wrong ext. Their # of downloads of 2,2,2 are all me. .PNGs of them are only around 50kB.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Willem2018 on October 14, 2019, 04:09:37 pm
Strange.
I tried again and my .bmp files are around 750 KByte.
In  .jpg format they are 120kByte. Both formats are 800 x 480.

I try to send the 3 screenshots in .jpg format.
I hope things are going well now

---------------------------------------------------------------
I see: now the images are oke. :)
For completeness I append my original questions

I have made some I2C experiments with my nice SDS 1104X-E scope (software version 6.1.33) and have a question about the record length of I2C data.
I send I2C data from an Arduino Pro Mini to a MPC4725 12 bit DAC on slave address 0x64 followed by the update command byte 0x40. After each update 0x40 follow 2 bytes DAC data from 0x00/0x00 to 0x26/0x26  (total 117 bytes, from 0Volt to approx. 0.5V) .
If I decode this data on my SDS 1104X-E  I can see only the first 66  bytes in the Long Data window, please see screenshot_1.
Question: is 66 the maximum I2C record length?

Another I2C question I have is about the data in the bottom (blue) data line, please see screenshot_2. Here the time base for the same data is 200usec/div.
As you can see the bottom data line is a fragment of the long data window. If I turn the Y-position to the left to see more data the complete data suddenly disappear, see screenshot_3.
Is this a bug in the scope software?

Many thanks in advance!


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on October 14, 2019, 04:53:12 pm
The SDS1104X-E decodes what is in the screen, so if you are pushing the i2c start condition out of the screen, it will not decode.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on October 14, 2019, 07:49:43 pm
The SDS1104X-E decodes what is in the screen, so if you are pushing the i2c start condition out of the screen, it will not decode.
The workaround is to Decode in Zoom mode but with the main timebase as slow as possible (not ROLL mode) and then examine the decoded data in the zoomed window.
Then in Zoom we can walk the H pos over some 100's of ms of data without problems and still see where we are in relation to the decode trigger position.

The strong clues to this are mem depth on top right of the display, slow timebase settings offer the most memory available where when in Zoom mode we then have a large field to study.
Like with any DSO, the more data we have captured the more we have to inspect.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on October 14, 2019, 09:03:21 pm
The SDS1104X-E decodes what is in the screen, so if you are pushing the i2c start condition out of the screen, it will not decode.

Yes, it decode always full currently used acquisition memory length *) and decoders are software based (so it can decode also from history waveform buffer and from sequence mode saved acquisitions)

*) Acquisition length = display width, always. Whole memory length is always exactly same as display width, independent of if capture length is 7 pts or 14Mpts. There is no overlap part of trace outside of screen. 

(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E-4ch/Serial-I2C/10-IIC-decoders-data-limits.png)

(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E-4ch/Serial-I2C/11-IIC-decoders-data-limits-and-zoom.png)
(there is more explanations etc., but only by finnish)

Max amount of IIC messages is 1000 (2 independent IIC decoders, both 1000 messsages max). Independent of if message length is 1 or 32bytes. I have not tested with longer than 32byte messages.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on October 14, 2019, 10:08:36 pm
Strange.
I tried again and my .bmp files are around 750 KByte.
In  .jpg format they are 120kByte. Both formats are 800 x 480.

I try to send the 3 screenshots in .jpg format.
I hope things are going well now
FYI not all file types can be uploaded directly to the forum:
Allowed file types: doc, gif, jpg, jpeg, pdf, png, txt, zip, tar, c, h, hex, bas, xls, odt, asm, wav, aiff, wma, mp3, flac, asc, ods, xlsx, py
Many file types can be converted to the allowed types with various programs like MS Paint or uploaded with a false file extension like .txt and add a note to remove the .txt so they can be used in their native/correct format.

All SDS****X-E models export screenshots in .png to USB and are only some 30-70 KB depending on the scope settings.
If your scope settings have been changed and now not exporting screenshots in .png use the Default button to return it to factory settings.

Later so to not have similar issues use the Save/Recall menu to change/set the behavior of the Default button where you can set your own default settings like V/div, active channels, timebase etc, etc.
You can also reset the Default to factory settings if you make some mistake or change your personal default settings later.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on October 15, 2019, 08:48:35 am
There is no need to change extensions in the forum. Just zip the "strange" file to .ZIP and you get an official .ZIP file that one can upload. Anyone can download it and store it like that and, later, any program/OS will know how to deal with it. It's a simple operation and involves no "patchings".
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: n3mmr on October 15, 2019, 09:25:35 am
P60 seems still broken, so...

I posted roughly the following on page 60 of this thread:

With the recent onslaught of new firmware versions for Siglent equipment, most notably the sds1xx4X-E and the sdg2000X, Siglent's published User Guides (and Service Manuals) have become inaccurate in some respects and parts, and in a few cases just wrong

Is anyone working on documenting these changes, perhaps updating manuals or writing addendi?

Is Siglent addressing this issue?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on October 15, 2019, 09:43:47 am
what part of the manual are you after, what commands or controls?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on October 15, 2019, 09:46:05 am
P60 seems still broken, so...

I posted roughly the following on page 60 of this thread:

With the recent onslaught of new firmware versions for Siglent equipment, most notably the sds1xx4X-E and the sdg2000X, Siglent's published User Guides (and Service Manuals) have become inaccurate in some respects and parts, and in a few cases just wrong

Is anyone working on documenting these changes, perhaps updating manuals or writing addendi?

Is Siglent addressing this issue?
If not they’re about to have a discussion about just that, whether they want to or not....spent some good time today on an email to those that can change things.

Yes this has been bugging me too and the issue doesn’t just affect SDS1000X-E documents, as you’ve noticed others too.  >:(
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: borjam on October 15, 2019, 09:58:09 am
Right now documentation is their weakest point.

The fate of our times, on the other hand. Poorer documentation and mostly silly videos instead.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Willem2018 on October 15, 2019, 10:08:30 am
Strange.
I tried again and my .bmp files are around 750 KByte.
In  .jpg format they are 120kByte. Both formats are 800 x 480.

I try to send the 3 screenshots in .jpg format.
I hope things are going well now
FYI not all file types can be uploaded directly to the forum:
Allowed file types: doc, gif, jpg, jpeg, pdf, png, txt, zip, tar, c, h, hex, bas, xls, odt, asm, wav, aiff, wma, mp3, flac, asc, ods, xlsx, py
Many file types can be converted to the allowed types with various programs like MS Paint or uploaded with a false file extension like .txt and add a note to remove the .txt so they can be used in their native/correct format.

All SDS****X-E models export screenshots in .png to USB and are only some 30-70 KB depending on the scope settings.
If your scope settings have been changed and now not exporting screenshots in .png use the Default button to return it to factory settings.

Later so to not have similar issues use the Save/Recall menu to change/set the behavior of the Default button where you can set your own default settings like V/div, active channels, timebase etc, etc.
You can also reset the Default to factory settings if you make some mistake or change your personal default settings later.

Thanks for your quick response!

No big issue but after pressed the Default button and saved the same scope screenshot with all the possible extensions:
.png  751kB
.bmp 1501kB
.jpg  43kB

A very big difference in size.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on October 15, 2019, 10:20:35 am


No big issue but after pressed the Default button and saved the same scope screenshot with all the possible extensions:
.png  751kB
.bmp 1501kB
.jpg  43kB

A very big difference in size.
To USB stick ?

Tip, use the blue Print button to save directly to a USB stick. Much faster than using the Save/Recall menu path.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Willem2018 on October 15, 2019, 10:32:42 am


No big issue but after pressed the Default button and saved the same scope screenshot with all the possible extensions:
.png  751kB
.bmp 1501kB
.jpg  43kB

A very big difference in size.
To USB stick ?

Tip, use the blue Print button to save directly to a USB stick. Much faster than using the Save/Recall menu path.

No I saved it via USB and EasyScopeX on my PC. Then in the Virtual Panel right-click and Save As --> the png is 750kByte
But your suggestion 'blue Print button to save directly to a USB stick' did it!
Now the .png file is only 26kB.
Again: no big issue but rather odd and this big EasyScopeX .png perhaps caused the upload problems on page60?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on October 15, 2019, 10:51:45 am


No big issue but after pressed the Default button and saved the same scope screenshot with all the possible extensions:
.png  751kB
.bmp 1501kB
.jpg  43kB

A very big difference in size.
To USB stick ?

Tip, use the blue Print button to save directly to a USB stick. Much faster than using the Save/Recall menu path.

No I saved it via USB and EasyScopeX on my PC. Then in the Virtual Panel right-click and Save As --> the png is 750kByte
OK, now instead of EasyScope use the scopes inbuilt webrowser.
Utility>I/O>LAN>IP
Turn DHCP ON to get an IP address from your modem then turn OFF.
Enter this IP into your browser bar and hit enter.
Have fun, much more fun !  :)

Quote
But your suggestion 'blue Print button to save directly to a USB stick' did it!
Now the .png file is only 26kB.
:-+
Quote
Again: no big issue but rather odd and this big EasyScopeX .png perhaps caused the upload problems on page60?
Possibly, something we need to check out.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on October 15, 2019, 12:22:24 pm
For capturing data, the web interface really shines, you can just rapid fire off image captures and they download via your browser skipping the usb step entirely, I believe you can also grab channel data this way, but I've been off on site for a few weeks so I'm working from memory.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on October 15, 2019, 02:06:10 pm
I investigated the averaging script to see whether it is really possible to extract more signal details.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/automated-wave-capture-for-siglent-sds1104x-e-and-sds1204x-e-dsos/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/automated-wave-capture-for-siglent-sds1104x-e-and-sds1204x-e-dsos/)

To test this I created a arbitrary waveform with 2 sines superimposed on each other. One only 0.5% of the main sine and 50x the freq. That's sine way "played" at 1000 hz and a 5 V amplitude.

When using the averaging script 0.08V std deviation noise was added, via the combine function C1=C1+C2 on the AWG.

The signal was fetched with 202 segments, which where averaged and plotted in Excel.

In the high res image the second sine can clearly be seen. I think this shows that for a repeating signal this method allows to extract details, without losing the oversight of the signal.

The scripting tool now doesn't use the VISA com-wrappers anymore, but instead uses the Visa32/Visa64 dll directly. Which means USB connection does now work. (The com wrappers where faulty using them). After running some more tests I'll upload the new tool and scripts.

(B.t.w. the screenshots the script takes in PNG format are around 20 kB.)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on October 15, 2019, 03:15:55 pm
I wondered if it was possible to clean up the imperfections the noise may add to the signal. To do that I captured the noise with another channel and calculated a new average signal, with subtracting the average noise of each sample.
The difference between the two can be seen in the image. The noise (of the noise) can indeed be taken away a bit further. Important to mention is that these details are less than the dac step size.

There're other ways to lower/lift the signal to get sub-step size resolution, but these involve following the scope acquisition cycles. So adding noise is probably the easiest way.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: blurpy on October 31, 2019, 06:56:03 pm
I see quite a lot of lag on the screen of my SDS1204X-E with the 6.1.33 firmware when measurements are active. Looks like the trace is paused for maybe a hundred milliseconds while it's taking a measurement and updating the screen. Is this expected? I couldn't find any post in this thread when searching for "lag".

I've filmed the scope to demonstrate. Video here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zeJAm1xtiRL67nXrLH39QUYI-IuTzVd4/view

1. The video starts with measurements off. The trace moves smoothly.
2. I click the measure button, with the "all measure" option on, and movement quickly starts to lag. There is a noticeable pause in the trace every time measurements are updated on the screen.
3. I turn off the "all measure" option. Lag is now much much worse, even though there are no measurements visible on the screen, only the trace.
4. I enable the "all measure" option again. Lag only happens when updating measurements on the screen again, like #2.
5. I click the measure button to get out of measure mode. The trace moves smoothly, like #1.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on October 31, 2019, 07:30:26 pm
While it should not be the case, does the behavior change if you reduce your sample memory size?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: blurpy on October 31, 2019, 07:52:31 pm
While it should not be the case, does the behavior change if you reduce your sample memory size?

I just tested, and reducing the memory depth to 1.4M fixes the lag and makes the measurements appear much more often.
Going back to 14M reintroduces the lag instantly.

Am I the only one seeing this behavior?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on October 31, 2019, 09:51:27 pm
Am I the only one seeing this behavior?
No, you're certainly not.

Everyone who is analysing signals at slow timebases on a DSO with long memory and deep measurements will experience some lag - and the SDS1000X-E entry level DSOs are certainly not the worst in this regard, even when compared to instruments that cost 10 times more.

Automatic measurements on the SDS1000X-E analyze the full record length up to 14Mpts. This means that you get the full signal analysis capabilities of a modern DSO, as you can measure e.g. the period, duty cycle and rise/fall times of a PWM signal with good accuracy all at the same time even at a slow 1ms/div timebase.

Some other DSOs use a much shorter secondary buffer for math and measurements, and some are even limited to just the screen buffer, which sets them back to the capabilities of an analog scope where you need to zoom in for meaningful transition time measurements and cannot get even remotely accurate period or duty cycle measurements at all.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: blurpy on November 01, 2019, 06:50:49 am
Thanks for the explanation, Performa01! It's good to know that it's not something wrong with my scope.

From an ignorant users standpoint, the behavior does look like a bug to me. I can definitely understand that it's processing a lot of data, and presenting that data will not always be real time. But as I could clearly see, presenting the data is not a bottleneck in itself, as it's quite fast when the memory length is shorter.

So the fact that the trace lags when updating measurements makes it look like the classic "doing background work on the ui thread" issue. Usually solved by doing time consuming work in the background and updating the ui when done. There could be good reasons for doing it the current way, including technical difficulties or complexity, accuracy (though since it only updates once a sec anyway it's not really representing any current state), or they don't worry about it since no one has complained.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 01, 2019, 08:15:55 am
Thanks for the explanation, Performa01! It's good to know that it's not something wrong with my scope.

From an ignorant users standpoint, the behavior does look like a bug to me. I can definitely understand that it's processing a lot of data, and presenting that data will not always be real time. But as I could clearly see, presenting the data is not a bottleneck in itself, as it's quite fast when the memory length is shorter.

So the fact that the trace lags when updating measurements makes it look like the classic "doing background work on the ui thread" issue. Usually solved by doing time consuming work in the background and updating the ui when done. There could be good reasons for doing it the current way, including technical difficulties or complexity, accuracy (though since it only updates once a sec anyway it's not really representing any current state), or they don't worry about it since no one has complained.
Try this and this observed behavior is somewhat different:
A faster timebase
Another channel using the same ADC.

As Performa01 points out, it's indicative of the sample size processed and additional active channels and/or a different timebase will result in smaller sample size to be processed.
Not all use cases will be impacted.......
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on November 01, 2019, 08:48:53 am
Thanks for the explanation, Performa01! It's good to know that it's not something wrong with my scope.

From an ignorant users standpoint, the behavior does look like a bug to me. I can definitely understand that it's processing a lot of data, and presenting that data will not always be real time. But as I could clearly see, presenting the data is not a bottleneck in itself, as it's quite fast when the memory length is shorter.

So the fact that the trace lags when updating measurements makes it look like the classic "doing background work on the ui thread" issue. Usually solved by doing time consuming work in the background and updating the ui when done. There could be good reasons for doing it the current way, including technical difficulties or complexity, accuracy (though since it only updates once a sec anyway it's not really representing any current state), or they don't worry about it since no one has complained.
I understand what you're saying - and I also can only speculate about the reasons.

On the other hand, I had quite some discussions with Siglent R&D about measurements and I know that they do care - even though quite often I am the only one complaining about something ;)

The fact that it works smooth with 1.4Mpts record length (which you generally should not take for granted) shows that the implementation in the Siglent DSOs isn't that bad after all. Manufacturers usually don't specify the max. data length for math and measurements, but you can bet not many will actually analyze up to 14Mpts. There is one particular (expensive) brand whose DSOs are infamous for getting unresponsive as soon as they have anything demanding (like math or measurements) to do. I'm not sure you'd like such an approach better?

The bottleneck is certainly processing and bus transfer speed as well as the (limited) size of fast internal memory, and embedded platforms (even with the pretty powerful Xilinx Zynq) cannot be compared to a modern PC (which is what upper-midrange and high-end DSOs are based on). We cannot acquire and display new data while analyzing the sample memory at the same time, because the analyzed data need to remain consistent during analysis. With 14Mpts record length, there are "only" 3 records in the history (42Mpts total per channel pair!), hence the currently analysed record gets overwritten by the acquisition process much faster than the CPU can analyse it to get all the measurements. As a consequence, the acquisition process has to be halted until analysis is complete.

A 4 channel SDS1004X-E has a total of 28Mpts sample memory (up to >100Mpts in History and Sequence mode). If we were able to take a "snapshot" of the sample memory, i.e. copy the entire 28Mpts to some internal memory of the ARM CPU (on a separate memory bus) and then analyse it locally in the background, then the interruptions of the acquisition and consequently display process could certainly be much shorter and would most likely not be noticable at all even with 14Mpts record length. But my guess would be that there is just no local memory on a separate bus that is as big as the maximum record length for all channels together (at least 28MB) ...

To cut a long story short, neither the UI nor the display is blocked by the measurements, it is actually the acquisition that needs to be briefly paused in order to prevent it from corrupting the data just being analysed. With shorter record lengths (either by limiting it in the Acquisition menu or selecting a faster timebase) this problem eases pretty quickly.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on November 01, 2019, 09:03:59 am
I think you resumed it pretty well.

Just want to add that with the new development toolchains available to these new embedded procs, there is a tendency to have more overhead in all of the code (the tradeoff of faster time-to-market...). This overhead also penalizes the speed.

These equipments are no more compatible with fully Assembly development project (optimized to the extreme).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: blurpy on November 01, 2019, 11:11:27 am
@tautech - Good tips, I'll do some more experiments when I get back to the scope.

@Performa01 - I've never used another scope, so I don't know what I'm missing (good or bad), but while researching I was looking into the Rigol 1054Z, and the Siglent seemed to be quite a lot more responsive from what I could see (on YouTube). So I see your point :) I'm generally very happy with the performance and the device. Great theory btw! What you're describing with memory limits during acquisition seems plausible. Siglent is maybe not able to improve it much further because of hardware, but possibly their more expensive DSOs have the capabilities to avoid it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on November 01, 2019, 01:00:42 pm
@Performa01 - I've never used another scope, so I don't know what I'm missing (good or bad), but while researching I was looking into the Rigol 1054Z, and the Siglent seemed to be quite a lot more responsive from what I could see (on YouTube). So I see your point :) I'm generally very happy with the performance and the device. Great theory btw! What you're describing with memory limits during acquisition seems plausible. Siglent is maybe not able to improve it much further because of hardware, but possibly their more expensive DSOs have the capabilities to avoid it.
The Rigol DS1000Z series do not have deep measurements, quite the opposite - they are essentially limited to the screen buffer. It certainly would be very embarassing if measurements would cause any noticeable lag in these devices.

Even the current Siglent flagship DSO SDS5000X is based on the Zynq platform. Of course it has a lot more acquisition memory, faster ADCs and I would also assume a more powerful version of the Zynq chip. The fundamental problem remains though - the ARM CPU has to access (and lock) the sample memory while analyzing it to get the measurement values. The fast internal memory is not nearly big enough and the external CPU memory is certainly not fast enough.

As mentioned before, even much more expensive so called "A-brand" DSOs get laggy pretty quickly when performing deep measurements on embedded platforms.

Only non-embedded upper midrange or high-end platforms can effectively circumvent this, because there is a clear separation between acquisition memory and the (huge) main memory of the PC platform. Then we can do what I've described before: transfer the acquisition data to the PC main memory via a high speed interface as needed, thus causing little interference on the acquisition process. There is a downside too - since there is no direct access to the sample data, these scopes cannot offer intesity or color grading as a standard, but need a special "persistence" mode for this, which comes with its own bunch of limitations.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: borjam on November 06, 2019, 10:57:35 am
I think you resumed it pretty well.

Just want to add that with the new development toolchains available to these new embedded procs, there is a tendency to have more overhead in all of the code (the tradeoff of faster time-to-market...). This overhead also penalizes the speed.

These equipments are no more compatible with fully Assembly development project (optimized to the extreme).
That overhead can also help write less buggy code and make it much easier to maintain. So there is always a reason. Of course there is a balance and sometimes it's difficult to strike.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mematyi on November 07, 2019, 10:40:56 am
Hi!

I am in search of a new (first) budget DSO, and I recently met this SDS1104X-e scope. I have had some analog ones, but I wanted a digital scope for years. I've read various reviews of it, and it seems to be the budget king of this category of scopes. My price point is exactly this scope, about 500Euros max.

I am in absolutely not a hurry buying a DSO, that is why I am asking you for an advice.
Do you think that in this budget scope dump, Siglent or Owon or Rigol, any budget brands will come out with a new model that has even better specifications and worth waiting a few more months?
This scope mentioned in this thread is about 2 years old, still way newer than the Rigol 1054Z, but I wonder if a new buyer with moderate, but certainly not beginner electrical experience should wait some more time.

I have seen the new Rigol DS1202Z-e, but it is only 2 channel, and I wasn't able to find and pros compared to the Siglents. Perhaps Rigol might come out with an upgraded 4-banger.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on November 07, 2019, 05:17:04 pm
I am in search of a new (first) budget DSO, and I recently met this SDS1104X-e scope

Go for it!
I'm an happy previous owner of a Rigol 1054Z and now an happier owner of a Siglent SDS1204X-e (the 200MHz version).
Some random plus points of the Siglent:
- obviously newer design
- measures and decoders use full memory buffer. Rigol is limited to display memory
- faster interface, even with measures and decoding and cursors on the interface is not too slow
- firmware is (in my opinion) quite stable. Siglent seems to be faster in addressing bugs and community feedback
- has all decoders included, and also can decode CAN bus (Rigol can't)
- Remote web interface is really good for an instrument of this price range
- Logic analyzer and bode plot available as options
- History (segmented memory) is really useful once you learn how to use it (Rigol also has a kind of segmented memory option but is unusable)

You can find in the forum the really good deep review by Performa01 for the Siglent

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: CiscERsang on November 07, 2019, 06:12:56 pm
Greeting all,

While decoding...
what are the red dots at bytes as per pic attached?
Some bytes don't have that, some have.

thanks
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mematyi on November 07, 2019, 09:12:26 pm
Thanks for your reply!
I have gone through those reviews. I am low on precious freetime, as I am still writing my Master Thesis currently, but as far as I can recall, they were mostly very positive.
No doubt this is a fine scope, I am particularly interested in the upcoming releases, if anybody has manufacturer or R&D info, to buy this scope or wait a bit for an even better deal. As far as I can see, Memory depth and software functions are skyrocketing even on very low-end scopes. The automated Bode-plotting function seems to be awesome for the first sight. I wish only the screens were bigger and better resolution. The 800x480 is a joke for even a mobile phone these days.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on November 07, 2019, 09:19:42 pm
Go for it!

Subscripe this.
Got the 1054Z and the 1104x-e, the siglent doesn´t have the tons of feature the rigol comes with.
But what it got, it works..
The UI in general seems more "adult" to me and the "enhanced resolution" filter function is a killer feature against the rigol.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on November 08, 2019, 08:17:58 am
While decoding...
what are the red dots at bytes as per pic attached?
Some bytes don't have that, some have.
The red dot indicates that the display of the decoded value does not fit the box - in your case, the closing apostrophe of most ASCII decodes is truncated.

This appears to be some borderline situation though and it is certainly funny that '1' fits the space, whereas the firmware thinks that e.g. 'i' does not ;)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: CiscERsang on November 08, 2019, 06:27:22 pm
While decoding...
what are the red dots at bytes as per pic attached?
Some bytes don't have that, some have.
The red dot indicates that the display of the decoded value does not fit the box - in your case, the closing apostrophe of most ASCII decodes is truncated.

This appears to be some borderline situation though and it is certainly funny that '1' fits the space, whereas the firmware thinks that e.g. 'i' does not ;)

Moreover, it doesn't know how looks like, for example, the "question mark" and may be other chars which I didn't try.
Anyway there's a lot of to do with the next FW update. I have a list of wishes in terms of decoding.  :)

Thank you!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mematyi on November 13, 2019, 09:06:07 pm
It might be a dumb question, but I noticed on the pictures, that the scope has a menu on/off button at the bottom left corner.

Does it actually switches off menus and enhancing the viewing area, or  the menu items turn off and the space remains blank?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TauIs2Pi on November 14, 2019, 06:31:20 am
It might be a dumb question, but I noticed on the pictures, that the scope has a menu on/off button at the bottom left corner.

Does it actually switches off menus and enhancing the viewing area, or  the menu items turn off and the space remains blank?

Disabling the menus leaves a blank space. That blank space is then used for the decoding lanes which would otherwise crop the bottom of the display when menus are enabled.

(https://i.imgur.com/CWLU7nJ.png) (https://i.imgur.com/kuz6S12.png)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gabri74 on November 14, 2019, 02:18:54 pm
Disabling the menus leaves a blank space. That blank space is then used for the decoding lanes which would otherwise crop the bottom of the display when menus are enabled.

I use it also to close any opened pop-up menu without making any choice. I find it more handy than pushing the multifunction/variable knob, because sometime It makes me wrongly choose the above/below option.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mematyi on November 14, 2019, 03:10:38 pm
Thanks!

Can you please tell me the diameters of the screen?

Is it standard 16:9 7", or some odd(preferably larger area) type?

I am really liking this scope, but the screen seems to be on the smaller side, given the mobile phones are around 6" these days.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on November 14, 2019, 03:18:13 pm
The way i see it:
The resolution of the screen matches the bit depth (200 adc values) just fine. The size of the screen matches the resolution just fine. Before I bought it, I wished for large screens (was used to a usb scope on a monitor), now I think its fine as it is.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: daveyk on November 14, 2019, 05:48:00 pm
Hello Gabri74,

The display is excellent.  My main issues, that most likely do NOT affect 99% of other scope users is:

[/li]
[/list]

Other than those two issues, I do like the scope and its presentation is so beautiful.  It has a great LCD.

Dave

P.S. - Communications back and forth with the scope works fine through the network connection.  I never could get the USB connection to work reliably.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on December 14, 2019, 07:25:30 am
Hello,

I already forgot if we have a dedicated thread for Siglent SDS1204X-E bugs but this is what I found strange in the latest firmware  6.1.33
I am curios  about the trigger voltage level reported when different trigger types are selected:

Example 1  - correct behavior,trigger type: PULSE,  trig. level - 0V:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=889336;image)

Example 2 - strange behavior, trigger type: EDGE, trig level - 29V

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=889340;image)


Is a bug or it  has some explanation?

EXPLANATION: those 2 screenshots show that for triggering we use different channels. And while CH3 is actually turned off this is what creates the confusion, so this not a bug but the operator's  error. On the other hand I am not sure why CH3 is allowed to be used for triggering at all if its turned off.

Secondly: when trigger coupling is set to AC or LF filter the trigger voltage level trace is not visible. It is worth mentioning that in DC/HF filter mode the trigger voltage  level trace becomes visible only after the user changes (no matter how much) the trigger level.




Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on December 14, 2019, 08:46:03 am
Sometimes you want to trigger off some signal, but don't want it use screen space, because there is nothing interesting about it.
In that case you trigger from that channel and switch it off the screen. Which is exactly same behaviour as if you use External Trigger input.
Most of the scopes nowadays allow switching channel off while using it for trigger. It is a useful thing that I use very often.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on December 14, 2019, 08:58:00 am
Sometimes you want to trigger off some signal, but don't want it use screen space, because there is nothing interesting about it.
In that case you trigger from that channel and switch it off the screen. Which is exactly same behaviour as if you use External Trigger input.
Most of the scopes nowadays allow switching channel off while using it for trigger. It is a useful thing that I use very often.

This particular oscilloscope allows you to hide a particular channel (its  trace) but the channel should be turned on. I assumed that if the channel is turned off then it becomes nonfunctional i.e. it cannot be used for anything (triggering etc). Am I wrong? 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on December 14, 2019, 09:37:22 am
It's correct, you cannot trigger from a disabled channel (but you can hide the trace of any enabled channel).

Each trigger has its individual settings, so when browsing through the various trigger types the trigger channel as well as the trigger level(s) change accordingly.

The trigger setup doesn't allow you to select a disabled channel for triggering, but the stored settings for the individual trigger types do not change because of this. Consequently you are able to set the trigger to a non-active channel by selecting a different type that previously used that channel.
This is only a minor inconvenience in my book, especially as there is no real solution for this; if the originally stored trigger channel for a certain trigger type is not active, what should the DSO choose for you? The lowest enabled channel? Chances are that this isn't what you want in certain situations either.

Apart from that, I'm constantly reminding Siglent of one fundamental rule:
Never ever permanently change any user settings.

The AC (and LF-reject) trigger can be highly dynamic and the absolute trigger level position would change all the time, hence would have to be displayed permanently. This might consume valuable processing power and would be visually distracting on top of that. You still see the selected relative trigger level in the trigger info tab.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on December 14, 2019, 09:42:37 am
Sometimes you want to trigger off some signal, but don't want it use screen space, because there is nothing interesting about it.
In that case you trigger from that channel and switch it off the screen. Which is exactly same behaviour as if you use External Trigger input.
Most of the scopes nowadays allow switching channel off while using it for trigger. It is a useful thing that I use very often.

This particular oscilloscope allows you to hide a particular channel (its  trace) but the channel should be turned on. I assumed that if the channel is turned off then it becomes nonfunctional i.e. it cannot be used for anything (triggering etc). Am I wrong?

I don't know about Siglent, but Keysight MSOX3104T works exactly like that: If you set it to trigger form CH3, and press channel button to disable it, it will disappear from screen but it will keep on triggering from it. It can be confusing sometimes, but useful...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 14, 2019, 09:59:16 am
Sometimes you want to trigger off some signal, but don't want it use screen space, because there is nothing interesting about it.
In that case you trigger from that channel and switch it off the screen. Which is exactly same behaviour as if you use External Trigger input.
Most of the scopes nowadays allow switching channel off while using it for trigger. It is a useful thing that I use very often.

This particular oscilloscope allows you to hide a particular channel (its  trace) but the channel should be turned on. I assumed that if the channel is turned off then it becomes nonfunctional i.e. it cannot be used for anything (triggering etc). Am I wrong?

I don't know about Siglent, but Keysight MSOX3104T works exactly like that: If you set it to trigger form CH3, and press channel button to disable it, it will disappear from screen but it will keep on triggering from it. It can be confusing sometimes, but useful...
Siglent's are different, there are 3 states for a channel; OFF, ON and ON but Hidden.
In only the ON state can a channel be triggered from; ON and visible or ON and Hidden.

I agree with Performa01, we drive the tool and NOT the tool makes choices for us....unless we select Autoset.  ::)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: CiscERsang on December 14, 2019, 07:32:51 pm
Greetings,
Could anyone say me something on this matter?

f=19.2kHz is plausible value? Does this mean that signal is being sent ~19000 times per second. Or?
 






Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on December 14, 2019, 08:34:27 pm
No, it is related to the time it takes for the signal to swing from high to low to high.  Nothing related to how many times the signal transitions levels.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 17_29bis on December 15, 2019, 01:58:58 am

The AC (and LF-reject) trigger can be highly dynamic and the absolute trigger level position would change all the time, hence would have to be displayed permanently. This might consume valuable processing power and would be visually distracting on top of that. You still see the selected relative trigger level in the trigger info tab.

Thanks for the explanation. Indeed it has been already discussed several times, for example:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/775/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/775/)

I simply forgot about it.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: CiscERsang on December 15, 2019, 07:14:05 am
No, it is related to the time it takes for the signal to swing from high to low to high.  Nothing related to how many times the signal transitions levels.

then, is there a way to see a frequency wich is related to trigger and shows how many times per second the frame is triggered?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 15, 2019, 07:16:36 am
No, it is related to the time it takes for the signal to swing from high to low to high.  Nothing related to how many times the signal transitions levels.

then, is there a way to see a frequency wich is related to trigger and shows how many times per second the frame is triggered?
Cursor measurements between the start of packets will give you the Baud rate.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on December 15, 2019, 07:47:29 am
No, it is related to the time it takes for the signal to swing from high to low to high.  Nothing related to how many times the signal transitions levels.

then, is there a way to see a frequency wich is related to trigger and shows how many times per second the frame is triggered?
You can monitor the trigger output at the back of the instrument with a 2nd DSO or a frequency counter with long gate time.

You can also go to the history and turn the list view on. This will show the past trigger events with a timestamp that has microsecond resolution and you also get the delta time between the trigger events automatically calculated.

If you want a deep history (more entries), just limit the record length in the Acquire menu. You don't need 7Mpts and 500MSa/s for a slow serial message, 70kpts and 5MSa/s would be plenty for that.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: CiscERsang on December 15, 2019, 11:43:15 am
guys I've opened separate topic on this matter. here https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds-1104x-e-trigger-holdoff-feature-(it-may-say-test)/msg2830052/#msg2830052 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds-1104x-e-trigger-holdoff-feature-(it-may-say-test)/msg2830052/#msg2830052)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on December 15, 2019, 01:17:38 pm
guys I've opened separate topic on this matter. here https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds-1104x-e-trigger-holdoff-feature-(it-may-say-test)/msg2830052/#msg2830052 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds-1104x-e-trigger-holdoff-feature-(it-may-say-test)/msg2830052/#msg2830052)

Why? Performa01 answered your question.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Nobby42 on December 17, 2019, 09:02:56 pm
Hello, I have an SDS1204X-E and have a question.
If I have 2 different signals. For example 1 sine with 100khz and one sine with 95khz. How can I trigger on both signals so that they stand still on the screen?
I miss a alternate mode.

Kind regards

Norbert
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on December 17, 2019, 09:39:44 pm
Hi Norbert,

Have a look at dave´s video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZYC80fkNsg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZYC80fkNsg)

(especially at 8:45 and further)

Martin
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Nobby42 on December 22, 2019, 05:14:20 pm
Hi Martin

the pattern trigger not really work for sinus.
Example: One sinus 100khz an one with 79khz.
My cheap OWON scope has no problem with that. It has a alternate trigger.
There is a way for a feature request at Siglent?

Norbert
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on December 22, 2019, 06:45:09 pm
Hi,

Quote
the pattern trigger not really work for sinus.
Example: One sinus 100khz an one with 79khz.

Tried out on my rigol mso5, pattern doesn´t work ( no OR function), but "Setup/Hold" does.
Maybe the siglent have this trigger type too ?

Martin

(Meanwhile I realise, that posting a still image makes no sense..)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: e0ne199 on December 23, 2019, 04:43:02 pm
Hi Martin

the pattern trigger not really work for sinus.
Example: One sinus 100khz an one with 79khz.
My cheap OWON scope has no problem with that. It has a alternate trigger.
There is a way for a feature request at Siglent?

Norbert

just out of curiosity i have also tried your setup and looks like siglent 1000x-e series are unable to trigger signal with different frequency independently...i have tried every setup to make the signal with different frequencies stand still but looks like i am unable to do that with siglent scopes....
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 23, 2019, 07:44:02 pm
Hi Martin

the pattern trigger not really work for sinus.
Example: One sinus 100khz an one with 79khz.
My cheap OWON scope has no problem with that. It has a alternate trigger.
There is a way for a feature request at Siglent?

Norbert

just out of curiosity i have also tried your setup and looks like siglent 1000x-e series are unable to trigger signal with different frequency independently...i have tried every setup to make the signal with different frequencies stand still but looks like i am unable to do that with siglent scopes....
See this post for an example using Patten OR H triggering:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-non-alternating-between-channels-type/msg2382687/#msg2382687 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-non-alternating-between-channels-type/msg2382687/#msg2382687)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Nobby42 on December 24, 2019, 10:22:51 am
Hi, I got it. I use "Logic OR".
But if I change the second frequency, then I have to readjust the level. Not pretty. The best way is to use an alternate trigger.

Happy Christmas
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: e0ne199 on December 25, 2019, 01:24:17 am
Hi, I got it. I use "Logic OR".
But if I change the second frequency, then I have to readjust the level. Not pretty. The best way is to use an alternate trigger.

Happy Christmas

what kind of trigger did you use? normal or auto?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Nobby42 on December 27, 2019, 03:34:30 pm
Hi.

what kind of trigger did you use? normal or auto?

I have testet both.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 31, 2019, 12:37:58 am
I'm trying to have the scope send a service request (SRQ) when the trigger is ready or a signal is acquired. So no status polling would be needed.
(I have SRQ call-backs working on a Keithley DMM6500, which is quite handy.)

Those states can be read using the INR? command, reading the "Internal State Change Register". (Which works using the polling method)

The *STB? query returns the status byte register, bit 0 would be set when a change in the "Internal State Change Register" occurs when the corresponding bit is enabled in the "Internal State Change Enable Register".

That bit 0 can be enabled to actually send a service request using *SRE 1
-- that seems to be working: *SRE? returns 1

There's only a slight problem, the command INE, which would enable bits in the "Internal State Change Enable Register" does not seem to function.
(That is not entirely surprising because a lot of this stuf is not in the documentation, but the scope should be able to work this way IMO.)

Siglent documentation however refers to enabling the event bit, but does not explain how.

Google finds this document:
http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/manuals/dda-rcm-e_05.pdf (http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/manuals/dda-rcm-e_05.pdf)
or
http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/manuals/wm-rcm-e_rev_d.pdf (http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/manuals/wm-rcm-e_rev_d.pdf)
Somehow LeCroy and Siglent seems to be related when it comes to SCPI. Other LeCroy documents served me well. But the INE command, which would be a most logical command, does not work.

Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MikeLud on January 01, 2020, 04:11:37 am
I thought the SDS1104X-E only has a memory depth of 14 Mpts. If you have the timebase set to 5.00ms/div the display shows the a memory depth at 17.5 Mpts (see the below image). Is this a bug or you are getting 17.5 Mpts.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on January 01, 2020, 05:06:01 am
you are getting the depth shown,
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MikeLud on January 01, 2020, 05:59:42 pm
Thanks Rerouter
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ewaller on January 02, 2020, 08:48:53 pm
I've been playing around a bit writing some Python 3 code to talk to my SDS1204E-X.  The screenshot below is a (pseudo) real time 3D waterfall display in which keeps track of the last 512 traces and scrolls them in time.  Shown is a Lorentz pulse that is AM modulated by a sine wave.  The latest trace is  imaged in the window in the top right corner.  If anyone is interested, I'll post it to PyPI.  It runs on Linux (Arch Linux with i3wm in this screenshot).  It should work on other distributions.  It should work on Windows, but I have no way to check that.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on January 03, 2020, 12:03:50 am
Nice graph!
I'm interested. (For now mostly to checkout the code/scope interactions for learning purposes)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ewaller on January 03, 2020, 01:30:28 am
Great.  I'll finish packaging it up and will provide the links here.  Give me a day or so.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on January 03, 2020, 11:21:32 am
I've been playing around a bit writing some Python 3 code to talk to my SDS1204E-X.  The screenshot below is a (pseudo) real time 3D waterfall display in which keeps track of the last 512 traces and scrolls them in time. 

Very nice! Can you do a small video?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on January 03, 2020, 03:51:33 pm
Great.  I'll finish packaging it up and will provide the links here.  Give me a day or so.
:-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on January 03, 2020, 04:55:03 pm
For those interested, in this thread I did some lengthy measurements on the accuracy of my channel 1 offset dac. Eventually with the purpose of correcting errors to use the scope for precise measurements (around 0.1 mV precision in the -1.9 to 1.9 V range).
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/battery-charging-using-a-siglent-sds1104x-and-spd3303x/msg2855768/#msg2855768 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/battery-charging-using-a-siglent-sds1104x-and-spd3303x/msg2855768/#msg2855768)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ewaller on January 03, 2020, 11:01:44 pm
I have uploaded this to PyPI,   one should be able to install this with pip install --user siglentwaterfall   
Windows users, sorry -- not sure of the exact command -- but should be able to install it with pip, I just don't know about the --user part.

I suggest running this with a command like
Code: [Select]
siglent -n tcpip::192.168.2.201 --waterfall -c 256
Replace the -n parameter with something appropriate for your scope.  If it is on Ethernet, change the address.  The -n can be any Visa instrument address.
I have the best results limiting the columns to 256 (as above).  Scope settings work best with the 14k memory depth, fast acquisition.  Also, wired Ethernet provides better results.

I have never tried to take a screenshot video -- let me work on that.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Foaly on January 18, 2020, 10:34:40 am
Hi,

Following advice on this forum I've recently bought an SDS110X-E as my first scope and I love it, so thank you!

After playing with it for the last week, I have a "maybe-newbie" question, there is something I thought I would be able to do based on the description but it doesn't seem to work. Can you tell me if this is a limitation of the scope or if I simply didn't find the right way to do it? I'm running FW 6.1.33 which appears to be the latest version.
I am looking at the signal integrity on a digital line with short bursts of data with large spaces between them. I'm using the Sequence mode to record the data frames at high sampling rate while discarding the useless spaces. Some of these frames have poor rising and falling times and I would like to use the Search feature to automatically find the frames where the slope is longer than a defined threshold, without having to scroll through the 2000 recorded sequences manually (even though the Navigate mode is handy). Unfortunately, it looks like the scope is only searching in the current sequence, so it is useless in this precise situation.
Any ideas? I admit it's not a deal-breaker, but it's a bit frustrating because I think combining the Sequence and Search features could be really useful.

Also, I found some (very minor) bugs : when the menu is Off, most buttons automatically bring back On to display the corresponding menu, but some (Navigate and Search for example) do not. However I guess there is no point in reporting such benign bugs to Siglent.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on January 18, 2020, 10:45:01 am
Using SCPI commands a script could do this. If you're comfortable with programming that could give you an arsenal of advanced data processing capabilities.

The selected waves could then be plotted using something similar like this:
https://github.com/HendriXML/XMLScripts-Project-WaveCapture (https://github.com/HendriXML/XMLScripts-Project-WaveCapture)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on January 18, 2020, 07:37:43 pm
Hi,

Following advice on this forum I've recently bought an SDS110X-E as my first scope and I love it, so thank you!

After playing with it for the last week, I have a "maybe-newbie" question, there is something I thought I would be able to do based on the description but it doesn't seem to work. Can you tell me if this is a limitation of the scope or if I simply didn't find the right way to do it? I'm running FW 6.1.33 which appears to be the latest version.
I am looking at the signal integrity on a digital line with short bursts of data with large spaces between them. I'm using the Sequence mode to record the data frames at high sampling rate while discarding the useless spaces. Some of these frames have poor rising and falling times and I would like to use the Search feature to automatically find the frames where the slope is longer than a defined threshold, without having to scroll through the 2000 recorded sequences manually (even though the Navigate mode is handy). Unfortunately, it looks like the scope is only searching in the current sequence, so it is useless in this precise situation.
Any ideas? I admit it's not a deal-breaker, but it's a bit frustrating because I think combining the Sequence and Search features could be really useful.
I think you can do this but not for both rising and falling edges together.
See this example:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717)

Quote
Also, I found some (very minor) bugs : when the menu is Off, most buttons automatically bring back On to display the corresponding menu, but some (Navigate and Search for example) do not. However I guess there is no point in reporting such benign bugs to Siglent.
The factory is on holidays but I'll confirm and write something up to send to them.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on January 19, 2020, 04:57:01 am
Hi,

Following advice on this forum I've recently bought an SDS110X-E as my first scope and I love it, so thank you!

After playing with it for the last week, I have a "maybe-newbie" question, there is something I thought I would be able to do based on the description but it doesn't seem to work. Can you tell me if this is a limitation of the scope or if I simply didn't find the right way to do it? I'm running FW 6.1.33 which appears to be the latest version.
I am looking at the signal integrity on a digital line with short bursts of data with large spaces between them. I'm using the Sequence mode to record the data frames at high sampling rate while discarding the useless spaces. Some of these frames have poor rising and falling times and I would like to use the Search feature to automatically find the frames where the slope is longer than a defined threshold, without having to scroll through the 2000 recorded sequences manually (even though the Navigate mode is handy). Unfortunately, it looks like the scope is only searching in the current sequence, so it is useless in this precise situation.
Any ideas? I admit it's not a deal-breaker, but it's a bit frustrating because I think combining the Sequence and Search features could be really useful.
I think you can do this but not for both rising and falling edges together.
See this example:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717)


If I understood right he want search directly through all stored segments!   Afaik this is not possible.

Sidenote what I also remember now... you can not save all stored segments at once to USB.  Only individual segment.
Also there is STILL lacking play segments with trace stacking to screen (direct overlay or user selected waterfall, all or example user defined amount when playing back) to display.. for easy hunt differences between segments. These may rise usability lot. It collect data nicely but there is lot of lack of tools for handling acquired data... ;)  These are small, simple and cheap things. Lack of these is not catastroph...we can also buy better tools if need but... Perhaps designers do not have so much real experience and knowledge about oscilloscope as daily tool in working. Also it is nice if can use mask test to stored segments and collect to memory these segments what violate mask etc. Specially when max segments are tens of thousands it also need tools for handling and analyze these. These are tools, not salesmen checkbox features in product sales brochures.

It was years ago I give tip to Siglent. Please read as many old HP journals as possible. Not  for circuits, they are now museum, but mainly for learn product developing thinking and design culture what is now chinese developers Achilles heel due to chinese school system what nearly destroy creative independent thinking what is needed if develop something own. It is company what now need also develop intuitive creative design and "do it better" culture for design and do with own brains clever but also wisely without copycatting. How to do it if system works as "do not think, follow the boss/commander" Schools do only simplest teaching methods: follow teachers teaching and after then they think they can design something new. If someone tell you do wrong they shut door and window and ears and eyes. It is changing but looks like big boat turns too slowly.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Foaly on January 19, 2020, 10:06:16 am
Using SCPI commands a script could do this. If you're comfortable with programming that could give you an arsenal of advanced data processing capabilities.

The selected waves could then be plotted using something similar like this:
https://github.com/HendriXML/XMLScripts-Project-WaveCapture (https://github.com/HendriXML/XMLScripts-Project-WaveCapture)
Thanks for the link. I've also bookmarked the project by @ewaller in #1573. I'm comfortable with programming but I've not yet studied the protocoles used to communicate with the scopes (SCPI? VISA? ...?), this is something I plan on doing later and indeed it looks like it opens a whole new world of possibilities. For instance, I need to look into whether these protocoles could be used to synchronize the scope and an external AWG (such as the SDG2042X, not the small AWG addon) and generate Bode plots, IV curves and things like that.

I think you can do this but not for both rising and falling edges together.
See this example:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717)
Thanks for the suggestion, however as @rf-loop pointed out this doesn't use the Sequence mode. The problem I have with this is that if I don't use segments I have to set the horizontal setting to a large value to record all the data frames at the same time, but then the sampling rate is too low to record details in the slope of each bit. The Sequence feature is perfect to solve this problem, and using it in conjunction with the Search feature would be awesome.

Sidenote what I also remember now... you can not save all stored segments at once to USB.  Only individual segment.
Also there is STILL lacking play segments with trace stacking to screen (direct overlay or user selected waterfall, all or example user defined amount when playing back) to display.. for easy hunt differences between segments. These may rise usability lot. It collect data nicely but there is lot of lack of tools for handling acquired data... ;)  These are small, simple and cheap things. Lack of these is not catastroph...we can also buy better tools if need but... Perhaps designers do not have so much real experience and knowledge about oscilloscope as daily tool in working. Also it is nice if can use mask test to stored segments and collect to memory these segments what violate mask etc. Specially when max segments are tens of thousands it also need tools for handling and analyze these. These are tools, not salesmen checkbox features in product sales brochures.

Indeed, I didn't mention it but I also try to find the faulty slopes by turning Persistence to Infinite and scrolling through the segments (manually or with the animated way) but that didn't work either. I didn't try saving to USB or using masks though.
As far as I understand how the scope works (I may be wrong), adding Search and Persistence support to the Sequence mode shouldn't be very difficult to do in the firmware so it's a shame that this wasn't implemented, and as you say @rf-loop it would be very useful to track down spurious events which is what these features are advertised for (even though I completely agree that we already get a lot of value for a $500 scope).

I'm new to this game but do the scope manufacturers take feature requests and does Siglent still develop firmware updates for this model?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on January 19, 2020, 10:11:26 am
Hi,

Following advice on this forum I've recently bought an SDS110X-E as my first scope and I love it, so thank you!

After playing with it for the last week, I have a "maybe-newbie" question, there is something I thought I would be able to do based on the description but it doesn't seem to work. Can you tell me if this is a limitation of the scope or if I simply didn't find the right way to do it? I'm running FW 6.1.33 which appears to be the latest version.
I am looking at the signal integrity on a digital line with short bursts of data with large spaces between them. I'm using the Sequence mode to record the data frames at high sampling rate while discarding the useless spaces. Some of these frames have poor rising and falling times and I would like to use the Search feature to automatically find the frames where the slope is longer than a defined threshold, without having to scroll through the 2000 recorded sequences manually (even though the Navigate mode is handy). Unfortunately, it looks like the scope is only searching in the current sequence, so it is useless in this precise situation.
Any ideas? I admit it's not a deal-breaker, but it's a bit frustrating because I think combining the Sequence and Search features could be really useful.

Also, I found some (very minor) bugs : when the menu is Off, most buttons automatically bring back On to display the corresponding menu, but some (Navigate and Search for example) do not. However I guess there is no point in reporting such benign bugs to Siglent.

You could use slope trigger, to directly capture only those frames that have offending slopes...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on January 19, 2020, 11:46:38 am
Using SCPI commands a script could do this. If you're comfortable with programming that could give you an arsenal of advanced data processing capabilities.

The selected waves could then be plotted using something similar like this:
https://github.com/HendriXML/XMLScripts-Project-WaveCapture (https://github.com/HendriXML/XMLScripts-Project-WaveCapture)
Thanks for the link. I've also bookmarked the project by @ewaller in #1573. I'm comfortable with programming but I've not yet studied the protocoles used to communicate with the scopes (SCPI? VISA? ...?), this is something I plan on doing later and indeed it looks like it opens a whole new world of possibilities. For instance, I need to look into whether these protocoles could be used to synchronize the scope and an external AWG (such as the SDG2042X, not the small AWG addon) and generate Bode plots, IV curves and things like that.
I like the case you presented: "software triggering". So I'll add a script which handles a similar situation. It will not only export the data, but also screenshots of matching segments. It will then also be easy to find the segments by number on the scope. The idea behind the scripts and libraries is that the communication (SCPI) is encapsulated by object classes.

Edit - the slope trigger can already discriminate between fast and slow slopes so there's not much benefit to redo this in a script. Will try to think of a different case that is worth the effort.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on January 19, 2020, 08:32:16 pm
You could use slope trigger, to directly capture only those frames that have offending slopes...
Nice feature, seems like that meets the requirement!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Foaly on January 19, 2020, 09:04:36 pm
You could use slope trigger, to directly capture only those frames that have offending slopes...
Indeed, that's what I did at the beginning, but with Sequence and a simple Edge trigger it is useful to have the bad frames in the context of the whole transaction and to be able to scroll through them (with History) to debug the issue. In the end, it was easier to keep the Sequence mode with Edge trigger and scroll through the frames manually to find the bad ones than to use the Slope trigger and have results out of context.
Again, I know I'm nitpicking here :) It's just that I was a bit surprised to see that the Search feature didn't search into all the segments so I thought I'd ask in case I was missing something.

Thanks for the help

I like the case you presented: "software triggering". So I'll add a script which handles a similar situation. It will not only export the data, but also screenshots of matching segments. It will then also be easy to find the segments by number on the scope. The idea behind the scripts and libraries is that the communication (SCPI) is encapsulated by object classes.

Edit - the slope trigger can already discriminate between fast and slow slopes so there's not much benefit to redo this in a script. Will try to think of a different case that is worth the effort.
I think it's still an interesting idea for the reasons above. I don't know how SCPI works, would it be possible to save a snapshot of the waveform in realtime each time the scope triggers?
Thinking about it, I guess it would also be possible to write custom decoders for unsupported protocols (maybe it already exists). I will look into that in the future.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on January 19, 2020, 09:32:49 pm
I think it's still an interesting idea for the reasons above. I don't know how SCPI works, would it be possible to save a snapshot of the waveform in realtime each time the scope triggers?
Thinking about it, I guess it would also be possible to write custom decoders for unsupported protocols (maybe it already exists). I will look into that in the future.
It is indeed possible to repeatedly fetch the scopes waveforms.
One could even use it as an high precision multimeter  :-+.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/battery-charging-using-a-siglent-sds1104x-and-spd3303x/msg2864724/#msg2864724 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/battery-charging-using-a-siglent-sds1104x-and-spd3303x/msg2864724/#msg2864724)
But there will be gaps during "stopped acquisition, fetching data and trigger ready" when the measurements are halted for a moment. It would be nice if it could use rotating buffers or other techniques to keep the measurements continuous. But that's me nit-picking :-+ Also waiting for a trigger to be met without polling would be a nice feature.
I haven't much experience with different scopes, but I guess the more high models might be even better suited for automation. But still a lot is possible in a reliable way.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on January 19, 2020, 09:57:16 pm
But that's me nit-picking :-+ Also waiting for a trigger to be met without polling would be a nice feature.

I don't think this would ever be possible with SCPI.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on January 19, 2020, 10:38:24 pm
But that's me nit-picking :-+ Also waiting for a trigger to be met without polling would be a nice feature.
I don't think this would ever be possible with SCPI.
It's not entirely SCPI, but I have a SRQ callback working with my DMM. From documentation I know some scopes support this too. The Siglent SDS1104X-E's have some rudimentary functionality which points in the right direction. But I think it's legacy stuff that does not work anymore. My investigation on it ended with:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2850962/#msg2850962 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg2850962/#msg2850962)
The visa api on my DMM opens an incoming tcp/ip port on the client app which is used by the DMM to send SRQ's to the client app. The scope however does not connect to such a port, which would be one of the steps to make bidirectional communication happen. (So at least 2 dead ends)
(This is not a requirement of tcp/ip which can be bidirectional on only one port, but VISA solves it with 2 ports so it seems.)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on January 20, 2020, 03:49:04 pm
I eventually gave it a shot in:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/automated-wave-capture-for-siglent-sds1104x-e-and-sds1204x-e-dsos/msg2879132/#msg2879132 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/automated-wave-capture-for-siglent-sds1104x-e-and-sds1204x-e-dsos/msg2879132/#msg2879132)

Below a screenshot of a segment that violates the specified rise/fall time.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: frogg on January 21, 2020, 02:41:01 pm
I just recently bought an SDS1104X-E (after wrangling for days about spending the extra $150 over a Rigol 1054Z or Instek 1054B) and I'm pretty pleased.

The feature that I really love the most is the native web interface. I'd wager that it's worth at least half the extra cost of the 1104X-E, if I had to put a dollar value on it.

The "Screen Save" "Waveform Save" and "Bin to CSV Tool" buttons are pretty awesome.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kvd on January 23, 2020, 09:45:25 pm
Hi,

I just discovered two more errors in the otherwise _excellent_ SDS1202X-E oscilloscope. Firmware version = 1.3.26.

One has to do with REF traces created from the FFT, and the other bug is a freeze of the scope, which I cannot completely reproduce with 100% certainty yet. So let me start with the REF trace issue. I think it has not been published before. Bear with me if it has been.

The bug can be shown in one screenshot. See the first screenshot. In this screenshot you see REF A and REF B, which have been created from FFT. The labels for REF A and REF B show the time/div as used for trace 1 and 2, instead of the Hz/div for the FFT. This is wrong. REF A and REF B do show the right vertical units however (dBm). For the first screenshot it is essential that the traces for channel 1 and 2 are shown as well as the FFT traces. If trace 1 and 2 are not shown, the labels for REF A and B are not shown (which you may also call a bug).

This bug has a follow up bug in cursors. If we put trace cursors on REF A and REF B, X1, X2 and ΔX show time units, instead of a frequency unit. This can be shown in the second screenshot.

Note: the FFT traces are max-hold traces, and to create the screenshots I changed the FFT display to normal instead of max-hold to be able to show REF A and REF B better.

Greetings,
Koen
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Foaly on January 25, 2020, 09:30:22 am
I eventually gave it a shot in:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/automated-wave-capture-for-siglent-sds1104x-e-and-sds1204x-e-dsos/msg2879132/#msg2879132 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/automated-wave-capture-for-siglent-sds1104x-e-and-sds1204x-e-dsos/msg2879132/#msg2879132)

Below a screenshot of a segment that violates the specified rise/fall time.
It looks nice, I will give it a shot!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: diodak on January 29, 2020, 06:09:15 pm
I have a question: is the FW version displayed on 4/5 positions in your oscilloscopes? I made an update to 6.1.33. Then I updated the operating system to version 1. But I still have 6.1.33. Is it supposed to be this way?

The second problem is with the web server. It doesn't update my screen preview. Only one image appears and there is no continuous preview. I tried different browsers but with no effect. What could be the problem?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: diodak on January 30, 2020, 07:50:36 pm
Some new information. Uploading version 6.1.26 and re-uploading version 6.1.33 has fixed the problem with the webserver. The image refreshes in the browser.

When it was version 6.1.26, "System status" provided information about version -> 7.1.6.1.26. When I uploaded 6.1.33, the full information is still not displayed, only "6.1.33" as in the previous screenshot.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ganevson on February 01, 2020, 08:58:42 pm
Let’s assume a single channel active at a 1ms/div timebase. With 14Mpts of acquisition memory, we still
maintain a 1GSa/s sample rate and the record length is 14Mpts, so it fills the entire memory. Yet when we
look at the history, we will find 3 records stored there, so there is actually a total  42Mpts of memory
available. Since this is the same for both channel groups in an SDS1104X-E, we could even claim to have
a total of 84Mpts of memory, but Siglent thankfully does not take the numbers game that far.

1.00ms - 1.00GSa/s -14.0Mpts     - 3   screens on history     ( 14Mpts    x 3 =  42Mpts)    per ADC
500us   - 1.00GSa/s -7.00Mpts    -  7   screens on history    ( 7.00Mpts x 7 =   49Mpts)    per ADC
200us   - 1.00GSa/s -2.80Mpts    - 19  screens on history    ( 2.80Mpts x 19 = 53.2Mpts) per ADC
50us    -  1.00GSa/s -700Kpts     -  80 screens on history     ( 700Kpts x 80 =  56Mpts  )  per ADC   BINGOOOO 56Mpts per ADC 
Siglent SDS1104X-E have 2 ADC X 56Mpts = 112Mpts

Where is the truth. Why is Silent silent about this?
sds1104x-e is a 56M oscilloscope per ADC


     
             
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 02, 2020, 04:26:55 am
Let’s assume a single channel active at a 1ms/div timebase. With 14Mpts of acquisition memory, we still
maintain a 1GSa/s sample rate and the record length is 14Mpts, so it fills the entire memory. Yet when we
look at the history, we will find 3 records stored there, so there is actually a total  42Mpts of memory
available. Since this is the same for both channel groups in an SDS1104X-E, we could even claim to have
a total of 84Mpts of memory, but Siglent thankfully does not take the numbers game that far.

1.00ms - 1.00GSa/s -14.0Mpts     - 3   screens on history     ( 14Mpts    x 3 =  42Mpts)    per ADC
500us   - 1.00GSa/s -7.00Mpts    -  7   screens on history    ( 7.00Mpts x 7 =   49Mpts)    per ADC
200us   - 1.00GSa/s -2.80Mpts    - 19  screens on history    ( 2.80Mpts x 19 = 53.2Mpts) per ADC
50us    -  1.00GSa/s -700Kpts     -  80 screens on history     ( 700Kpts x 80 =  56Mpts  )  per ADC   BINGOOOO 56Mpts per ADC 
Siglent SDS1104X-E have 2 ADC X 56Mpts = 112Mpts

Where is the truth. Why is Siglent silent about this?
sds1104x-e is a 56M oscilloscope per ADC       
Welcome to the forum.

It's outlined in the Key features on the websites  ;)
History waveform record (History) function, the maximum recorded waveform length is 80,000 frames

You do the maths......oh that's right, you already have.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 02, 2020, 06:09:24 am
Let’s assume a single channel active at a 1ms/div timebase. With 14Mpts of acquisition memory, we still
maintain a 1GSa/s sample rate and the record length is 14Mpts, so it fills the entire memory. Yet when we
look at the history, we will find 3 records stored there, so there is actually a total  42Mpts of memory
available. Since this is the same for both channel groups in an SDS1104X-E, we could even claim to have
a total of 84Mpts of memory, but Siglent thankfully does not take the numbers game that far.

1.00ms - 1.00GSa/s -14.0Mpts     - 3   screens on history     ( 14Mpts    x 3 =  42Mpts)    per ADC
500us   - 1.00GSa/s -7.00Mpts    -  7   screens on history    ( 7.00Mpts x 7 =   49Mpts)    per ADC
200us   - 1.00GSa/s -2.80Mpts    - 19  screens on history    ( 2.80Mpts x 19 = 53.2Mpts) per ADC
50us    -  1.00GSa/s -700Kpts     -  80 screens on history     ( 700Kpts x 80 =  56Mpts  )  per ADC   BINGOOOO 56Mpts per ADC 
Siglent SDS1104X-E have 2 ADC X 56Mpts = 112Mpts

Where is the truth. Why is Silent silent about this?
sds1104x-e is a 56M oscilloscope per ADC
           
Yes and no. ;)
Even when there is more memory for history buffer and fast segmented (sequence)
IMportant factor is one acquisition maximum memory length and it is 14M with one exception what is 17.5M and this number can not use for marketing. It can tell sequence and wfm history buffer is up to this and that but due to common peractice... max freq, max samplerate and max one acquisition memory length.
And truth is 100 and 200MHz BW depending model, 1GSa/s and 14Mpts in interleaved mode and 500MSa/s and 7M in non interleaved mode. (acquisition length is same in both cases if we thing time instead of count of samples. If think this, 14M with 1GSa/s equals to 140Mpts with 10GSa/s. This need also think and not look only Mpts without thinking further realities with time axis)

Here can find (https://siglent.fi/oskilloskooppi-tietoa-sds1004x-e--wfm-speed.html) SDS1x04X-E old table about this. Note, not all combinations and also note older FW version and there perhaps is some minor marginal differences. Even when it is checked with older FW and it is bit obsolete (mainly in slow timebases) I do not yet set table status fully obsolete. Waiting some FW update more and after then correct whole table. Note that some numbers may be bit better in FW 6.1.33 where is also many major improvements.

(https://siglent.fi/data/SDS1000X-E-4-CH/table-amount-of-segments-wfmbuffer.png)

Siglent do not "stretch all out" for marketing... given that place of honors to example Keysight et al.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ArcticPhoenix0 on February 06, 2020, 02:58:34 am
Is there a way to save this image so that I can pull it up later on the screen without the signal going into it?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on February 06, 2020, 11:48:35 am
You can save them as reference signals
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kvd on February 20, 2020, 01:38:58 pm
Hi,

I found another bug in the SDS1202X-E oscilloscope. Firmware version is 1.3.26.

The attached screenshot shows the problem. It shows the trigger point has been moved to the left (delay = -5.06ns). Tracking cursors on channel 1 and 2. The ∆X is calculated correctly (count #divisions * 1ns/div). But the reference point to which X1 and X2 are calculated is 5ns to the left of X1. This does not make sense. It should be either at X1 (so X1 = 0), or at the origin of the screen (so X1 would be -5ns then). X2 should be shifted accordingly.

Koen

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SHF on February 28, 2020, 08:10:03 am
Hi,
Is it possible to calibrate the internal time base or frequency display? my SDS 1104X-E always shows only 9.99995 MHz at an exact frequency (10MHz GPSDO)!

regards
Dieter
(http://)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SHF on March 07, 2020, 09:58:07 am
New Firmware https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=12 (https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=12)
Version: V6.1.35R2
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: diodak on March 07, 2020, 08:58:21 pm
The new FW (6.1.35R2) has changed the way the screen is displayed via the website. It is now on the same page and you do not need to use the back button to e.g. issue the SCPI command. I didn't notice this in the list of changes ...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on March 07, 2020, 09:05:36 pm
Quote
Is it possible to calibrate the internal time base or frequency display? my SDS 1104X-E always shows only 9.99995 MHz at an exact frequency (10MHz GPSDO)!

Same here, on the sds2000x+.
I think it´s a "digit problem", which means it´s not a real problem but a "natural" matter of fact.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SHF on March 07, 2020, 09:32:22 pm
Hi there
Can anyone explain the meaning of the beep when starting the SDS 1104X-E?
My device sometimes beeps twice at startup? (Firmware version: V6.1.35R2)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SHF on March 07, 2020, 09:38:37 pm
Quote
Is it possible to calibrate the internal time base or frequency display? my SDS 1104X-E always shows only 9.99995 MHz at an exact frequency (10MHz GPSDO)!

Same here, on the sds2000x+.
I think it´s a "digit problem", which means it´s not a real problem but a "natural" matter of fact.

I think it's because of the inaccuracy of the internal TCXO
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on March 07, 2020, 10:15:26 pm
Timebase accuracy sds1000x-e 25ppm, siglent sds2000x+ 1ppm...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ArcticPhoenix0 on March 07, 2020, 11:00:06 pm
Best guess: a test beep since it does have a speaker inside of it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 07, 2020, 11:20:40 pm
Hi there
Can anyone explain the meaning of the beep when starting the SDS 1104X-E?
My device sometimes beeps twice at startup? (Firmware version: V6.1.35R2)
It's like a POST test but if you don't like it in Utilities you can turn the sound OFF. Use Default and it will be back unless you make your personal Default settings and save then using the Set to Default feature in the Save/Recall menu.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SHF on March 08, 2020, 12:53:40 pm
Hi there
Can anyone explain the meaning of the beep when starting the SDS 1104X-E?
My device sometimes beeps twice at startup? (Firmware version: V6.1.35R2)
It's like a POST test but if you don't like it in Utilities you can turn the sound OFF. Use Default and it will be back unless you make your personal Default settings and save then using the Set to Default feature in the Save/Recall menu.

the 2x beep is due to the new firmware, V6.1.33 is not !
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rickwookie on March 09, 2020, 08:39:12 am
New Firmware https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=12 (https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=12)
Version: V6.1.35R2

Since this is the first new firmware since I "upgraded" my 1104X-E to a 1204X-E, can anyone tell me if doing this firmware upgrade has any effect on that or any other unlocked features?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: modoran on March 09, 2020, 09:58:21 am
My hacked 1104X-E still keep all options permanently enabled after firmware update ( not hacked to 1204X-E yet, only wifi, awg and mso )
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ArcticPhoenix0 on March 09, 2020, 10:00:16 am
Hacked my BW and options. Still there after FW update.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rickwookie on March 09, 2020, 01:44:06 pm
Ok I went for it and all “upgrades” remain. 👍
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ArcticPhoenix0 on March 09, 2020, 10:55:03 pm
I'm not sure if this is a bug or me not knowing how to use this scope but I'm trying to zoom in on a specific spot of the waveform that I have centered on the screen in the 1st attachment. That's 1V/div 500us/div on the test signal in front of the scope. .
I've got the reference POS in Fixed Offset-Vertical and Fixed Position-Horizontal
When I zoom in to 100mV I get the second attachment and now I'm looking at some middle bit of the wave. 500mV and 200mV worked fine and took me closer to the plateau of the wave. I've tried different combinations but still wind up in the middle. Am I doing something wrong here?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ArcticPhoenix0 on March 09, 2020, 10:56:08 pm
Don't know why this didn't attach. This is the starting point.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ArcticPhoenix0 on March 10, 2020, 12:51:51 am
Figured it out. Had my probe at 1x. :-DD
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on March 11, 2020, 07:29:24 pm
I'd like to understand how the internal frequency counter works. I measured an SPI clock of 10MHz. The measurements show a perfect frequency value but the frequency counter shows <10Hz. Why? What am I missing?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 11, 2020, 08:13:44 pm
I'd like to understand how the internal frequency counter works. I measured an SPI clock of 10MHz. The measurements show a perfect frequency value but the frequency counter shows <10Hz. Why? What am I missing?
The inbuilt frequency counter is for continuous waveforms for the channel selected to provide the trigger.

How you are using the dedicated channel measurement is correct.  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on March 14, 2020, 11:59:21 am
I found a mismatch between channels in my unit. On the attached screenshot is shown the same waveform sampled on two different channels. Both are sampled with the original Siglent 200MHz probes in 1X mode connected in parallel. On channel 4 the measured maximum is higher than on channel 2. The tested circuit is powered with Vcc=3.31V measured. The maximum value of 3.48V on channel 4 is 5.14% higher than the expected 3.31V which is much higher than the 3% stated in the datasheet. I tried to replace the probes with BNC-hook cables and got the same results. What can be the problem? What am I missing?

How are the versions of Siglent manuals numbered? For example, I have oscilloscope manuals versions UM0101X-E02A,  UM0201X-E01D and UM0101E-E03C. How can I know which one is the latest?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on March 14, 2020, 12:07:01 pm
Have you run self calibration on your unit?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on March 14, 2020, 12:22:56 pm
Yes. Did it twice after a version update some days ago.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on March 14, 2020, 02:19:34 pm
Try switching the probes (1->4, 4->1).  I have 10% difference on my scope, switching the probes switches the measurements as well (4V CH1, 4.4V CH4 --> 4.4V CH1, 4V CH4)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on March 14, 2020, 03:00:36 pm
I tried. Still get the same results.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on March 14, 2020, 04:06:04 pm
Have you tried different vertical measurements besides MAX?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ArcticPhoenix0 on March 14, 2020, 05:02:57 pm
Probes calibrated to the channels? My channel 2 probe will read different if I put it on a different channel. Not a huge difference but it's there.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on March 14, 2020, 05:07:46 pm
The probes were in 1X mode which doesn't require calibration.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Caliaxy on March 14, 2020, 05:39:26 pm
I found a mismatch between channels in my unit.

It’s actually not that bad, your scope might be within specs.

If at 1V/div the range of the 8 bit ADC is 10V (it might be as high as 16V), one step (the least significant bit, LSB) is 10,000mV/256=~40mV. The difference between your two channels is ~120mV, i.e. about 3 LSB. No ADC can be more precise than +/- 1 LSB, in practice the error is higher. In your case, the mismatch is about 3 LSBs. I wouldn’t worry too much about this.

You might get a smaller mismatch if you switch to 500 mV/div, because the LSB gets smaller - is that true?

Also, is the bandwidth limited to 20 MHz on both channels? A BW limiting mismatch can contribute to min/max mismatches.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 14, 2020, 07:23:08 pm
How are the versions of Siglent manuals numbered? For example, I have oscilloscope manuals versions UM0101X-E02A,  UM0201X-E01D and UM0101E-E03C. How can I know which one is the latest?
I go by the suffix so UM0101E-E03C is the most recent and the only one currently listed on the Hamburg website:
https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2017/10/SDS1000X-E_UserManual_UM0101E-E03C.pdf (https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2017/10/SDS1000X-E_UserManual_UM0101E-E03C.pdf)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on March 14, 2020, 08:11:58 pm
You might get a smaller mismatch if you switch to 500 mV/div, because the LSB gets smaller - is that true?

Yes. Going to 500 mV/div or 200 mV/div increases the precision.


Also, is the bandwidth limited to 20 MHz on both channels? A BW limiting mismatch can contribute to min/max mismatches.
I didn't try it. But with signals with a slow raise time I don't see this problem. May it be a kind of overshoot?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on March 18, 2020, 09:50:19 pm
FEATURE REQUEST

Did you notice the Siglent logo on the screen of SDS1000X-E? To me it looks ugly and cheap. I thought it was the same on all Siglent scopes, but the screenshots SDS5034X in this topic show that there is another much better looking version.

I pasted the logo from SDS5034X to a screenshot from SDS1000X-E. Just compare the two versions and see the difference.

Question to Siglent: would it be possible to change the logo on the SDS1000X-E screen? I know that we are talking about a piece of measurement equipment but if it can look better why not to do it? Aesthetics is also important. This small detail will make the screenshots look more professional and not cheap.

Siglent, thanks for updating the logo. The new one looks much better!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ArcticPhoenix0 on March 19, 2020, 01:15:02 am
Not sure if this is because it's hacked or the new firmware but my 1104X-E thinks it's either 2079 or 1979 according to screenshots.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Willem2018 on April 07, 2020, 05:00:26 pm
Hello SDS1104X-E Users,

Because the fan of my SDS1104X-E is quite loud I want to replace it.
I have loosened the four screws of the backcover but I cannot open it.
The bottom is slightly loose but the top is not.
Does anyone have a solution for this problem? :-\


Many thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: diodak on April 07, 2020, 06:52:46 pm
Maybe drawing and description on pages 58 and 59 will help something:
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/user/SDS1000X-E/SDS1000X-E_ServiceManual_SM0101E-E01A.pdf (https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/user/SDS1000X-E/SDS1000X-E_ServiceManual_SM0101E-E01A.pdf)
I'm also going to replace the fan but I'm afraid that it can change little. The problem is the inlet shapes. At least that's what others say. You may need to reduce the voltage supplying the fan.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Willem2018 on April 07, 2020, 08:00:01 pm
Diodak thanks for your answer!

The 'problem'  were 2 cams on the topcorners (L and R) that were quite stuck.
With a tool for opening watches, I finally loosened the back.
I replaced the fan with the German-made NoiseBlocker XR-2 (60x60x25mm) sold by Conrad.
This makes a lot less noise.
I compared the removed original and replacement fans by connecting them to an adjustable power supply.
The replacement is a lot quieter and it is noticeable that the noise level strongly increases from both 10Volt.
Lowering the supply voltage is of course a possibility, but the cooling must also be sufficient.
An idea for Siglent: make the voltage to the fan dependent on the cabinet temperature. That would make a big difference! :)

Doidak, Good luck adjusting the fan and enjoy the scope!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: diodak on April 08, 2020, 04:18:36 pm
Lowering the supply voltage is of course a possibility, but the cooling must also be sufficient.
An idea for Siglent: make the voltage to the fan dependent on the cabinet temperature. That would make a big difference! :)
The idea of reducing the voltage results from the assumed operating temperature for SDS1000X-E, in this case max 40C. Since I have a max in the room 25 / 28C I can reduce the air flow.

And as for the idea of adjusting voltage from temperature - I think it would be too easy. A simple temostat should be made more here. So that temperature changes do not cause significant voltage drift from the input blocks.

What was the original fan type / manufacturer? I am going to use Sunon MF60251V2-1000U-A99.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on April 08, 2020, 05:43:57 pm
What was the original fan type / manufacturer? I am going to use Sunon MF60251V2-1000U-A99.
2018 stock fan pic attached. 2 wire unit, rare warranty replacement.

Edit to add
From SDS1104X-E SN# SDSMMDBC2R****
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=966108)


Added to keep together:
My SN# range is: SDSMMDBC2R****

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=966138)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Willem2018 on April 08, 2020, 07:08:49 pm
Photo from the original fan attached.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: diodak on April 08, 2020, 07:34:09 pm
Thank you for providing model names. So they are similar but not the same:
DFM6025S 17.4 CFM / 24.6dBA / 2.56mm H2O / 0.11A
PAAD16025SL 17.1 CFM / 26dBA / 3.99mm H2O / 0.15A
Proposed Sunon:
MF60251V2-1000U-A99 19.3 CFM / 22dBA / 3.81mm H2O / 0.072A
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on April 08, 2020, 07:56:10 pm
An idea for Siglent: make the voltage to the fan dependent on the cabinet temperature. That would make a big difference! :)

Alternatively you could use a papst vario fan.
It allows internal and external temperature control via ntc resistor.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Willem2018 on April 09, 2020, 12:14:17 pm
My SN# range is: SDSMMDBC2R****
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: CiscERsang on April 09, 2020, 12:48:47 pm

An idea for Siglent: make the voltage to the fan dependent on the cabinet temperature. That would make a big difference! :)


It is useless idea because air flow quantity going through heatsinks must not depend on outer (cabinet) temperature at  all. Due to different load of core while
working in different modes.
Moreover, we're considering that existing cooling system is at the edge of its efficiency.

Well, who wants to get oscilloscope being hanging. No problem, follow the advice "dependency on outer (cabinet) temperature."  :palm:

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: diodak on April 09, 2020, 08:33:44 pm
Today I started changing the fan. My guess was confirmed. The fan is important but also the shape of the inlet (shape of the cutouts in the housing). Fans with a large diameter of the blade mounting part perform better in this model. So the fan blades should be short. Then the shape of the inlet less affects the noise.

My fan (MF60251V2-1000U-A99) is quiet but when placed on the housing it becomes loud. I solved this by reducing the voltage to 7.5V (I added a 100R resistor). I checked how strongly the air was blown out. I did it by hand so it is inaccurate. However, in my attempts it came out that the Sunon MF60251V2-1000U-A99 at 7.5V blows just as much as the original at 12V.

In my model SDS1104X-E there is also a PAAD16025SL fan and the serial number starts with SDSMMDBC2Rxxxx
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on April 09, 2020, 08:52:32 pm
Today I started changing the fan. My guess was confirmed. The fan is important but also the shape of the inlet (shape of the cutouts in the housing). Fans with a large diameter of the blade mounting part perform better in this model. So the fan blades should be short. Then the shape of the inlet less affects the noise.

My fan (MF60251V2-1000U-A99) is quiet but when placed on the housing it becomes loud. I solved this by reducing the voltage to 7.5V (I added a 100R resistor). I checked how strongly the air was blown out. I did it by hand so it is inaccurate. However, in my attempts it came out that the Sunon MF60251V2-1000U-A99 at 7.5V blows just as much as the original at 12V.

In my model SDS1104X-E there is also a PAAD16025SL fan and the serial number starts with SDSMMDBC2Rxxxx
I don't believe anyone has rubber mounted the stock fan and if there is room I would suggest strips of ~1mm thick rubber from the likes of a bicycle inner tube.
It may not even be necessary to replace the stock fan.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: diodak on April 09, 2020, 08:56:04 pm
I forgot to write. I added a special washer to the fan. It has the symbol FGA-60 and is produced by Richco. In my opinion, its addition does not change much with PAAD16025SL ...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on April 09, 2020, 09:17:41 pm
Apart from all:
We got a siglent SDS1104X-E at work, our colleague from R&D use it in his office and the noise level seems to me (and him) nearly quiet - Maybe you got a defective one ? (what the fan concerns)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: e0ne199 on April 10, 2020, 11:25:48 pm
Apart from all:
We got a siglent SDS1104X-E at work, our colleague from R&D use it in his office and the noise level seems to me (and him) nearly quiet - Maybe you got a defective one ? (what the fan concerns)

didn't know it could be a serious tool 😁
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: CiscERsang on April 11, 2020, 09:06:09 am
Apart from all:
We got a siglent SDS1104X-E at work, our colleague from R&D use it in his office and the noise level seems to me (and him) nearly quiet - Maybe you got a defective one ? (what the fan concerns)

didn't know it could be a serious tool 😁

This tool was spotted twice in this video according to comments. People choose Siglent.  :-+


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66EZetk-HQ4&lc=UgzO1n173Jf3xYWG9ph4AaABAg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66EZetk-HQ4&lc=UgzO1n173Jf3xYWG9ph4AaABAg)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: patman27 on July 09, 2020, 02:45:34 am
For anyone else having Wi-Fi connectivity issues with the SDS-1104X-E ...

When I tried to:
the scope would connect/disconnect/connect/disconnect endlessly. It just couldn't stick a connection.

TL;DR:

UniFi has a master setting that activates a handful of advanced features. I have this enabled on my network.
[attach=2]
That setting (and the features it enables, which are scattered all around) has a general disclaimer that stuff may break or become unstable. Go figure  :-DD

Most of the features work just fine. But there's one in particular that causes an issue with the Siglent scope.

This feature affects the 2.4 GHz band by default - the band used by the scope:
Enable 2G Data Rate Control
[attach=1]
It's intended to maintain a baseline network performance by enforcing minimums - namely a bandwidth floor - and disassociating devices that don't meet them. Good for enterprise networks. Bad for home labs.

Simply disabling this feature brought my scope online for good. Goodbye, ethernet!  :-+


Gory Details

At first I blamed Wi-Fi driver implementation in the Linux OS (my scope is rooted and "software-modified"). It didn't instill confidence to find that browser-based network settings (DHCP, subnet mask, etc) only affect the ethernet interface. They don't seem to touch the Wi-Fi interface at all. So I telnet'd in via ethernet and poked around.

I tried to connect the scope to Wi-Fi manually.
Code: [Select]
wpa_supplicant -dd -K -D wext -i wlan0 -c /usr/bin/siglent/usr/wifi/wpa.conf
My buddy and I found the following in the output:

Code: [Select]
...
Wireless event: cmd=0x8b15 len=20
Wireless event: new AP: 00:00:00:00:00:00
wlan0: Event DISASSOC (1) received
wlan0: Disassociation notification
wlan0: CTRL-EVENT-DISCONNECTED bssid=xx:xx:xx:xx:xx:xx reason=0
wlan0: Auto connect enabled: try to reconnect (wps=0 wpa_state=9)
...

Turns out my AP was kicking the scope off the network.

So much for that blame game   ;D

Edit: clarity
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: TK on July 09, 2020, 03:27:27 pm
Apart from all:
We got a siglent SDS1104X-E at work, our colleague from R&D use it in his office and the noise level seems to me (and him) nearly quiet - Maybe you got a defective one ? (what the fan concerns)

didn't know it could be a serious tool 😁

This tool was spotted twice in this video according to comments. People choose Siglent.  :-+


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66EZetk-HQ4&lc=UgzO1n173Jf3xYWG9ph4AaABAg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66EZetk-HQ4&lc=UgzO1n173Jf3xYWG9ph4AaABAg)
I see a lot of more Rigols in hobby and maker videos.  And Keysight if the youtuber is into more advanced stuff.  I sold some used Rigol and Siglent scopes and my estimate is that probably the market share is 10:1 in favor of Rigol on terms of interest and how they keep the resell value.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: patman27 on July 10, 2020, 12:25:52 am
Final note for peeps running UniFi.

...
Enable 2G Data Rate Control
(Attachment Link)
...
Simply disabling this feature brought my scope online for good. Goodbye, ethernet!  :-+

Except it didn't. Every 20-30 min the AP reverted to the previous setting, booting my scope off the network.

This post (https://community.ui.com/questions/Unable-to-disable-Enable-2G-Data-Rate-Control-via-controller-for-specific-WiFi-Network/539348d0-5800-4e6b-ab06-05878ed6db03) describes the same issue re: another 2.4GHz gizmo.

The fix: (in new settings) Under "Settings > Network Settings > Optimizations", turn off "Auto-Optimize Network" first.
[attach=1]
Otherwise "Enable 2G Data Rate Control" will automatically re-enable and get set to "6 Mbps".
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on July 10, 2020, 03:28:08 am
Tautech, is there a timeline on the next firmware patch for this scope? Are they planning on addressing the WiFi issues mentioned in this thread?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 10, 2020, 04:25:33 am
Tautech, is there a timeline on the next firmware patch for this scope?
Last was 2020-03-07 so one wouldn't expect another for a bit.
Quote
Are they planning on addressing the WiFi issues mentioned in this thread?
IDK. AFAIK the TP-Link dongle driver package was used in the scope therefore the WiFi connectivity stability is mainly due to AP settings which is something I suffer from too and thanked patman27 for discovering this and bringing it to our attention.
ATM I'm working with my ISP to discover if the WiFi router they use also has this 2G Data Rate Control feature ::) and if so it will be given prompt flying lessons !  :rant:  :horse:

It all makes some sense what patman27 has reported as I have no issues when WiFi connected to the DSO and live streaming remotely via the webserver but when throughput falls away connection is not maintained.

Still I might pop mail to Siglent to make them aware of patman27's findings.  8)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: jayp111 on July 17, 2020, 11:50:58 pm
I'm also unable to use my Siglent SDS1104X-E (firmware 6.1.35R2) with TL-WN725N over WiFi.

I am using an AVM Fritz!Box 7590 as WiFi access point and router (https://en.avm.de/products/fritzbox/fritzbox-7590/) with the current AVM firmware 7.20. These devices have a very large market share here in Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz!Box).

The Siglent connects to the access point over WiFi (WPA2) and receives an IP address over DHCP but cannot be reached through this address (web interface, ping). The WiFi connection speed is shown as 1/1 Mbit/s (up/down) by the AVM web interface. That seems unusually slow.

For additional testing I have tried an older ASUS RT-N12D1 access point. No problems with WiFi there.

It would be great if Siglent would fix this issue.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 18, 2020, 12:13:59 am
I'm also unable to use my Siglent SDS1104X-E (firmware 6.1.35R2) with TL-WN725N over WiFi.

I am using an AVM Fritz!Box 7590 as WiFi access point and router (https://en.avm.de/products/fritzbox/fritzbox-7590/) with the current AVM firmware 7.20. These devices have a very large market share here in Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz!Box).

The Siglent connects to the access point over WiFi (WPA2) and receives an IP address over DHCP but cannot be reached through this address (web interface, ping). The WiFi connection speed is shown as 1/1 Mbit/s (up/down) by the AVM web interface. That seems unusually slow.

For additional testing I have tried an older ASUS RT-N12D1 access point. No problems with WiFi there.

It would be great if Siglent would fix this issue.
Welcome to the forum.

Do you say you can access the scopes websever through one WiFi access point and not the other ?
It is simple to overlook the need to Save the scopes IP address.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: jayp111 on July 18, 2020, 12:21:38 am
The IP address that is assigned to the Siglent by DHCP is visible in the AVM access point interface. It's clearly not a routing issue (or mixed up IP address) but a problem with the Siglent WiFi connection to the AVM router.
I moved the Siglent right next to the AVM Fritz!Box 7590 that is located in the basement. Now the WiFi status shows 90 Mbit/s downstream, but I still cannot reach the IP address of the Siglent.

The Siglent web server can be accessed if I use the ASUS WiFi access point instead.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 18, 2020, 12:31:58 am
The IP address that is assigned to the Siglent by DHCP is visible in the AVM access point interface. It's clearly not a routing issue (or mixed up IP address) but a problem with the Siglent WiFi connection to the AVM router.

The Siglent web server can be accessed if I use the ASUS WiFi access point instead.
OK, can you get any access at all with the AVM router ?

FWIW I turn DHCP ON only to have an IP assigned to the scope then Save it and turn DHCP OFF.
Then point PC browser to saved IP and it works fine for a while depending on the task I'm doing. 

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: cardre on July 18, 2020, 12:34:58 am
The IP address that is assigned to the Siglent by DHCP is visible in the AVM access point interface. It's clearly not a routing issue (or mixed up IP address) but a problem with the Siglent WiFi connection to the AVM router.

The Siglent web server can be accessed if I use the ASUS WiFi access point instead.

I've read that people do have issues with various access points and it appears that it may be an issue with the Siglent itself and its firmware. Just one other thing to check though. Are you trying to access the Siglent via another computer/device that is also connected via wifi?

Reason I ask is that I have an older model Fritz Wifi router (7390) and in the "Wireless" settings, there is a "Security" section. There's a little checkbox that has to be switched on to allow the above scenario to work "The active wireless devices displayed below may communicate with each other". If this is not enabled, any Wifi device connected to the Fritz Wifi router will not be able to communicate with other Wifi devices on the same network.

This may or may not be the problem you're experiencing, but something worth checking. It's a security feature to help reduce hacking of a Wifi device by another Wifi device, by effectively disabling communication between them. So maybe see if that setting helps your scenario. I don't have a Wifi dongle for mine to check as I'm using Ethernet on my new Siglent.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: cardre on July 18, 2020, 12:44:02 am
FWIW I turn DHCP ON only to have an IP assigned to the scope then Save it and turn DHCP OFF.
Then point PC browser to saved IP and it works fine for a while depending on the task I'm doing. 

This will cause lots of problems next time a new device on your network wants a DHCP address and the DHCP lease time for your Siglent has expired (typical router DHCP configs are 3-24 hours.) After that time the DHCP server will give out the same IP address to another device and if your Siglent is still on or turned on at a later stage, they'll both have same IP address causing all sorts of network related issues.

Best to either assign your Siglent a static IP address that is outside of your DHCP IP address pool range, so that it never clashes, or alternatively, use DHCP all the time and check your router or device to see what IP address it is using next time it turns on. Another option is to have the DHCP server remember the Wifi MAC address of your Siglent and permanently assign it an IP address, again out of the normal DHCP pool range. That way it will always be assigned the same IP address that you can refer to with client devices, but the Siglent just uses DHCP all the time.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: jayp111 on July 18, 2020, 12:57:10 am
I have already checked the Fritz!Box settings. I have half a dozen ESP8285 Tasmota devices on the same Fritz WiFi network with the identical WiFi settings. They can be accessed without any problems.

And yes, I have assigned a fixed IP address for DHCP to the Siglent MAC address over the Fritz!Box interface outside of the dynamic DHCP range. That is not the issue.

BTW, if you use the WiFi USB stick on the Siglent, the static IP settings in the scope are ignored (apparently they are only for the Ethernet port). It's always using DHCP.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 18, 2020, 01:22:55 am
FWIW I turn DHCP ON only to have an IP assigned to the scope then Save it and turn DHCP OFF.
Then point PC browser to saved IP and it works fine for a while depending on the task I'm doing. 

This will cause lots of problems next time a new device on your network wants a DHCP address and the DHCP lease time for your Siglent has expired (typical router DHCP configs are 3-24 hours.) After that time the DHCP server will give out the same IP address to another device and if your Siglent is still on or turned on at a later stage, they'll both have same IP address causing all sorts of network related issues.

Best to either assign your Siglent a static IP address that is outside of your DHCP IP address pool range, so that it never clashes, or alternatively, use DHCP all the time and check your router or device to see what IP address it is using next time it turns on. Another option is to have the DHCP server remember the Wifi MAC address of your Siglent and permanently assign it an IP address, again out of the normal DHCP pool range. That way it will always be assigned the same IP address that you can refer to with client devices, but the Siglent just uses DHCP all the time.
Thanks, very helpful and obvious you know more about networks than I do.  :-[

I don't have a Wifi dongle for mine to check as I'm using Ethernet on my new Siglent.
Your contribution to connection issues would be very welcome if you decide to get the TP-Link TL-WN725N (gold version) which are on eBay for ~ AU$15.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: jayp111 on July 18, 2020, 02:52:05 am
When the Siglent scope is connected to the Fritz WiFi (and cannot be pinged/accessed) it uses 40 Mhz WiFi channel bandwith. On the ASUS WiFi it's only 20 Mhz.
Maybe that's the issue. There are some reports about the cfg80211_disable_40mhz_24ghz=1 setting on Linux machines that helped in other configurations.

I have no telnet hack on the scope to test it though...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MathWizard on July 18, 2020, 03:31:19 am
I have the hacked 1104 series, I'd love the 5000 series, someday, someday.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: cardre on July 18, 2020, 03:54:08 am
I have already checked the Fritz!Box settings. I have half a dozen ESP8285 Tasmota devices on the same Fritz WiFi network with the identical WiFi settings. They can be accessed without any problems.

Ok, that's good to confirm that's not the problem.

As 802.11n can include both 2.4 and 5GHz networks, next thing I'd try is temporarily disable the 5GHz radio on the Fritz Box and see if the Siglent works correctly or not. From what I saw of a quick read of the TP-Link TL-WN725N datasheet, it does not support 5GHz, only 2.4GHz. The Fritz box may be making wrong assumptions about the device and trying to talk back to it in a way that the Wifi dongle cannot or does not respond.

And yes, I have assigned a fixed IP address for DHCP to the Siglent MAC address over the Fritz!Box interface outside of the dynamic DHCP range. That is not the issue.

BTW, if you use the WiFi USB stick on the Siglent, the static IP settings in the scope are ignored (apparently they are only for the Ethernet port). It's always using DHCP.

As I don't have the Wifi dongle, I don't know what it can or can't do, but that's a really important point then about not being able to set a static IP address for the Wifi dongle on the Siglent with the stock firmware. So yes, I'd setup my DHCP server to aways provide the Siglent's Wifi dongle's MAC address with the same fixed IP address out of the DHCP address pool. Otherwise, you'll always need to find the dynamically assigned IP address every time you turn your scope on after you let it connect to Wifi.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: cardre on July 18, 2020, 04:00:41 am
When the Siglent scope is connected to the Fritz WiFi (and cannot be pinged/accessed) it uses 40 Mhz WiFi channel bandwith. On the ASUS WiFi it's only 20 Mhz.
Maybe that's the issue. There are some reports about the cfg80211_disable_40mhz_24ghz=1 setting on Linux machines that helped in other configurations.

See my other reply, but I think you're on the right track here as I was thinking to eliminate one of the radios from the problem as well.

To try and force the Fritz box then to use 20MHz on 2.4GHz, this is the setting I use. In the "Wireless" -> "Radio Channel" section, turn off the "Set radio channel settings automatically (recommended)". Then in manual "Adjust radio channel settings" click on "Additional settings" and make sure to enable the "Wireless LAN coexistence enabled (2.4 GHz frequency band. In heavily used wireless environments the available channel width is divided among the participants in the best way possible." checkbox.

See if that maybe helps, but again, only guessing here as I can't see the problem myself.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: jayp111 on July 18, 2020, 04:11:43 am
Yeah, that's been enabled. 5 GHz is disabled, too.
The Siglent connects with 40 MHz WiFi bandwith anyway. I have no other device that uses 40 MHz bandwith on the 2.4 GHz band. That seems to be quite uncommon and probably causing the issue.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MathWizard on July 18, 2020, 04:21:27 am
I've had to reboot a few times now lately, like 2 days ago, the trace on 2ms or 5ms, disappeared, it would appear at +10ms and less than 5 or 2ms (iirc which was missing).

It might have been just me changing the time base too quick and it trips up the machine, but I don't change stuff much faster than it can update it, and then why would the trace not ever appear on that ms/div afterwards, and I had to reboot.



I hacked my 1104, and then updated to latest firmware in May/June, I hope thats not the problem
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: cardre on July 18, 2020, 04:24:29 am
Yeah, that's been enabled. 5 GHz is disabled, too.
The Siglent connects with 40 MHz WiFi bandwith anyway. I have no other device that uses 40 MHz bandwith on the 2.4 GHz band. That seems to be quite uncommon and probably causing the issue.

So have you tried setting the 2.4GHz radio to only 802.11b+g, thus removing 802.11n?

This would obviously be less than ideal for normal devices, as it defeats the purpose of having an 802.11n Wifi router. That said, if you allow 802.11n+a on the 5GHz radio, it may not really be such a big problem.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: jayp111 on July 18, 2020, 01:34:11 pm
The Siglent does indeed work properly with the ancient WiFi standards 802.11b+g instead of 802.11g+n on the AVM Fritz!Box 7590. It uses 20 MHz WiFi bandwidth then.

I think it's not unlikely that the Linux setting cfg80211_disable_40mhz_24ghz=1 could fix the issue with 802.11g+n enabled (if it's possible to change that setting on the Siglent).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: cardre on July 18, 2020, 03:25:23 pm
The Siglent does indeed work properly with the ancient WiFi standards 802.11b+g instead of 802.11g+n on the AVM Fritz!Box 7590. It uses 20 MHz WiFi bandwidth then.

OK, glad to hear you've been able to isolate the problem then and have some sort of a solution. I guess it depends how much you want to use the AVM FrtizBox with that config and whether having the 2.4GHz radio use the older Wifi standards and let your 5GHz radio use the newer Wifi standards. I don't know your network and devices to know whether that's workable or not, but at least the actual problem has been identified and some sort of (less desirable?) solution is possible.

I think it's not unlikely that the Linux setting cfg80211_disable_40mhz_24ghz=1 could fix the issue with 802.11g+n enabled (if it's possible to change that setting on the Siglent).

I guess a request could go in for some sort of config setting to be incorporated into the Siglent firmware, but I don't know how open they are to that sort of setting/configuration changes.

Once you have network access, you could try enabling/using telnet access and modifying the filesystem of the Siglent. The risk here is that it will be lost/overwritten on future firmware updates.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tony359 on August 09, 2020, 08:53:18 pm
I've been having the 1104 for several weeks now - still learning.
One thing that caught my eyes and I find pretty annoying is that I cannot see the top line of the screen unless I am looking perpendicular at the screen itself. If I'm standing in front of my bench - hence the scope is at "belly height" I cannot see it. The plastic frame around the screen should have been chamfered more to avoid this issue which I find pretty major as the top line has some crucial information!

I did a quick search on this thread and I do not see anybody else noticing it but it is so obvious to me.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on August 10, 2020, 03:02:14 am
I've been having the 1104 for several weeks now - still learning.
One thing that caught my eyes and I find pretty annoying is that I cannot see the top line of the screen unless I am looking perpendicular at the screen itself. If I'm standing in front of my bench - hence the scope is at "belly height" I cannot see it. The plastic frame around the screen should have been chamfered more to avoid this issue which I find pretty major as the top line has some crucial information!

I did a quick search on this thread and I do not see anybody else noticing it but it is so obvious to me.

I too have noticed the and it does annoy me. Viewing angles are important!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Ringmodulator on August 14, 2020, 05:09:22 pm
Has already someone botherd to exchange the Intensity/Adjust encoder with a detented encoder?

I did this with my two other DSOs (different brand) and found it to be a great enhancement for me.

More often than not, I manage to cause an unwanted jump in value or selection when pressing the knob.

Maybe, tis is just me...

Regards
Chris
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 14, 2020, 07:41:25 pm
Has already someone botherd to exchange the Intensity/Adjust encoder with a detented encoder?

I did this with my two other DSOs (different brand) and found it to be a great enhancement for me.

More often than not, I manage to cause an unwanted jump in value or selection when pressing the knob.

Maybe, tis is just me...

Regards
Chris
Chris, you can bypass using the encoder for large adjustments by when the LED is lit for it signifying it needs input, press it again and the virtual keyboard appears where you can select digits and units.
I find using it between thumb and forefinger with other fingers resting on the top of the scope works best and better helps prevention of moving the encoder while a selection is made.
A larger knob works well to and you can exchange one of the larger knobs to it which makes it less sensitive to movements.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: patman27 on August 17, 2020, 01:44:44 am
Has already someone botherd to exchange the Intensity/Adjust encoder with a detented encoder?

I've been wondering the same thing.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: gamerpaddy on August 17, 2020, 09:27:53 am
Hey,
i got a problem with my sds1104x-e, it wont recognize any usb drives anymore.
(i did that sds1204x-e firmware thing back in the day, usb worked after that no problems. it worked just 2 months ago when i last used it, havent done anything but maybe measuring one or two things since.)

when i insert a usb drive, it says "USB flash drive removed" hitting the screenshot button says, no usb flash drive detected.

i tried with 5 different drives ranging from 2 to 64gb, all FS from exFAT over FAT32 to NTFS. USB drives, usb card readers with sd cards in it. drives that definately worked before.
i hit (in windows) "format to device defaults" to reset block sizes, i tried with volume name and without..
i tried the back and front usb port, i hit default to reset settings, i disconnected power for a while, i tried rebooting..
i tried via the save/recall menu, via the system menu (firmware, configuration) also nothing.
 i cant get it to work for some reason.

anyone got an idea?


EDIT:
i have found 4gb sd card that works! no idea why my 2gb stick with fat32 didnt, nor the sticks that worked before.
updated firmware to 6.1.35R2 but still usb drive cannot be detected. i also tried formatting it on another computer and from within a virtual box running kali.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Ringmodulator on August 17, 2020, 10:25:54 am
Hi,

I just use the webinterface for screenshots, so no juggling with USB sticks.

The 10€ WLAN adapter spares me from having to plug in the LAN cable in my non-permanent setup.

OK, not eaxtly a solution to your question, just a workarround...

Chris
Title: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes - C4:COUPLING?
Post by: HendriXML on August 20, 2020, 11:51:39 am
Hi!,

When I execute the SCPI query C4:COUPLING? it fails, while C3:COUPLING? returns a valid answer: D1M. I'm quite sure it is a bug.

Also I cannot use the remote interface in Windows Edge browser, the mouse cursor dissapears when it enters the UI. Internet explorer however works fine.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes - C4:COUPLING?
Post by: HendriXML on August 21, 2020, 10:58:28 am
Hi!,

When I execute the SCPI query C4:COUPLING? it fails, while C3:COUPLING? returns a valid answer: D1M. I'm quite sure it is a bug.
This query returns wether the channel is AC, DC or GND, which is quite important. However EasyScope (uses SCPI) does not show this value. This makes me wonder wether it is a known bug.
I can't think of any reason why channels 1-3 work, but the 4th wouldn't.
Maybe someone is willing to verify this issue?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes - C4:COUPLING?
Post by: HendriXML on August 21, 2020, 07:11:40 pm
Hi!,

When I execute the SCPI query C4:COUPLING? it fails, while C3:COUPLING? returns a valid answer: D1M. I'm quite sure it is a bug.
This query returns wether the channel is AC, DC or GND, which is quite important. However EasyScope (uses SCPI) does not show this value. This makes me wonder wether it is a known bug.
I can't think of any reason why channels 1-3 work, but the 4th wouldn't.
Maybe someone is willing to verify this issue?
Found a workaround! Using the short version C4:CPL? seems to be having no problem.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on August 21, 2020, 09:34:08 pm
Found some buggy SCPI behavior:
If one has a fine adjustment of the V/Div, then setting the trigger level to a certain value goes wrong.
For example if the sensitivity is 5.10V/Div, and the trigger level is set to 10V. The actual trigger level becomes 5.1V.
I guess when the trigger "ADC value" is calculated, the coarse round up is used (10V/Div). Then this wrong ADC value, is then converted and shown as the triggerlevel. Thus: TriggerLevel SCPI -> TriggerLevel ADC -> TriggerLevel UI
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on August 24, 2020, 01:26:38 pm
I'm in the process of develloping a script that not only extract a screenshot and trace data. But also reports the settings on the scope used in such a way that they can easily be redone (inifile data, see below).
Code: [Select]
[VISA]
ScopeRN=TCPIP0::scope::inst0::INSTR

[Scope]
AcquireWay=PeakDetect
MemorySize=70K
TDiv=50 ms·div⁻¹

[Scope.Trigger.Select]
TriggerSelect=WIN

[Scope.Trigger]
TriggerPattern=C1,X,C2,X,C3,X,C4,X,STATE,AND
TriggerDelay=0 s

[Scope.CH1]
Enabled=1
Unit=A
Attenuation=1
VDiv=100 mA·div⁻¹
VOffset=100 mA
Coupling=DC
BandwidthLimit=1

[Scope.CH2]
Enabled=1
Unit=V
Attenuation=1
VDiv=4.94 V·div⁻¹
VOffset=0 V
Coupling=DC
BandwidthLimit=1

[Scope.CH3]
Enabled=1
Unit=V
Attenuation=1
VDiv=1.3 V·div⁻¹
VOffset=0 V
Coupling=DC
BandwidthLimit=1

[Scope.CH4]
Enabled=1
Unit=V
Attenuation=1
VDiv=1 V·div⁻¹
VOffset=-3 V
Coupling=DC
BandwidthLimit=1
However in the case of the TRSE? query. Not all parameters are returned (depending on the trigger type). Most importantly the trigger source, which is needed to extract trigger levels and more.
I cannot understand why, because it is easier to encode the status in a responds, then it is to decode it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: heatbreak on August 26, 2020, 10:44:30 pm
Why is the X-Cursor time measurement only works when both X1 and X2 cursors are visible on the screen?  Like I zoom in on a pulse making it span multiple screens, set X1 to the beginning of the pulse and X2 to the end and the time measurement is only accurate when both X1 and X2 are on screen.  If one or both is not visible on screen, then the measurement is off.  I don't remember seeing this behavior in Agilent scopes.  In the following two pictures, I haven't change the time scale nor move the cursors.  The only thing I did was move the pulse to the right.  I have FW 6.1.35R2.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes - C4:COUPLING?
Post by: HendriXML on August 27, 2020, 11:34:17 am
When I execute the SCPI query C4:COUPLING? it fails, while C3:COUPLING? returns a valid answer: D1M. I'm quite sure it is a bug.
This issue is BTW resolved in the newest firmware update: C5:COUPLING? typo in name.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on August 27, 2020, 02:35:53 pm
I noticed that fixing the restrictions on the WIFI network name has not been implemented in FW version 6.1.35R2.  Is this planned for a future release?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 27, 2020, 10:36:42 pm
Why is the X-Cursor time measurement only works when both X1 and X2 cursors are visible on the screen?  Like I zoom in on a pulse making it span multiple screens, set X1 to the beginning of the pulse and X2 to the end and the time measurement is only accurate when both X1 and X2 are on screen.  If one or both is not visible on screen, then the measurement is off.
Yes this might be an issue in single timebase mode but it certainly isn't in Zoom mode.
A couple of screenshots attached for your study.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nez on September 15, 2020, 04:27:03 am
EDIT:  Inline pictures didn't seem to work.. guess they are at the bottom of the post...



I think I found some problems/strangeness with phase and amplitudes when comparing two signals, depending on which channels are being used.

I just got an SDG2042X AWG (now unlocked for 120 MHz sine), and was messing around measuring the phase difference of two dissimilar BNC cables on my SDS1104X-E scope (unlocked to 200 MHz).

Can someone advise me on whether I'm seeing a problem with just my scope, or is it with the model/firmware in general?


Basically, I am seeing incorrect phase and amplitudes measurements when comparing two signals, depending on which channels are enabled and at what timebase is set.  There are big differences depending on if I'm using two channels from the same ADC, or one channel from each ADC.  For example, using chans 1 and 3, the phase difference is wrong by about 40 degrees (at 120 MHz sine) from what it should be -- at least, what I assume it should be.

The issues occur when directly viewing the waveforms and are also reflected in Bode plots done on the scope.


Test setup:
AWG - Both channels set to 120 MHz sine wave, tracking on, HiZ.
Using two different BNC cables with a slightly different lengths, without 50 Ohm terminators (just waiting for ebay order to arrive).
(One cable came with the AWG, the other is a PICO MI030)


Here are two BodePlot II plots demonstrating the difference while just changing which scope input channels are connected and enabled.

[attach=1]
[attach=2]



Case 1:
Using channels 1 and 3, vertical scale @ 500 mV/div, averaging on

  1 ns/div:  33.88 degrees,  780.00 ps skew
  2 ns/div:  34.56 degrees,  780.00 ps skew
  5 ns/div:  38.14 degrees,  883.33 ps skew,  3.32 Vpp
 10 ns/div:  38.07 degrees,  880.95 ps skew,  3.32 Vpp
 20 ns/div:  38.39 degrees,  846.15 ps skew,  3.32 Vpp
 50 ns/div:  72.09 degrees,    1.68 ns skew,  3.32 Vpp
100 ns/div:  72.11 degrees,    1.68 ns skew,  3.32 Vpp
200 ns/div:  72.22 degrees,    1.68 ns skew,  3.32 Vpp
500 ns/div:  72.22 degrees,    1.67 ns skew,  3.32 Vpp
  1 us/div:   72.22 degrees,    1.68 ns skew,  3.32 Vpp
     <etc>           <etc>            <etc>   3.32 Vpp
200 us/div:          <n/a>,           <n/a>,  3.66 Vpp * Sample rate drops to 500 MSa/s at this timebase


To get a more steady phase result I turned on averaging over 1024 samples in the Acquire menu, but the same changes across timebases are observed without averaging.

[attach=3]
[attach=4]



Case 2:
Using channels 1 and 2, vertical scale @ 500 mV/div, averaging on

  1 ns/div:  32.81 degrees,  720.00 ps skew,  3.66 Vpp
  2 ns/div:  32.43 degrees,  740.00 ps skew,  3.66 Vpp
  5 ns/div:  32.38 degrees,  750.00 ps skew,  3.66 Vpp
 10 ns/div:  31.97 degrees,  756.04 ps skew,  3.66 Vpp
 20 ns/div:  33.09 degrees,  742.86 ps skew,  3.66 Vpp
 50 ns/div:  32.38 degrees,  761.54 ps skew,  3.66 Vpp
100 ns/div:  32.67 degrees,  774.44 ps skew,  3.66 Vpp
200 ns/div:  32.87 degrees,  781.45 ps skew,  3.66 Vpp
500 ns/div:  32.98 degrees,  781.45 ps skew,  3.66 Vpp
  1 us/div:  32.29 degrees,  781.45 ps skew,  3.66 Vpp
 50 us/div:  33.18 degrees,  878.07 ps skew,  3.66 Vpp
100 us/div:  32.60 degrees,      <unstable>,  3.66 Vpp
200 us/div:          <n/a>,            <n/a>, 3.66 Vpp


NOTE 1:
Without averaging, the skew measurements start flipping around all over the place at 100 ns/div and longer timebases. At 50 ns/div and shorter, the skew values remain in the expected range of values (given the jitter specs of AWG, I think).

Even with averaging on, the skew values start having trouble at 100 us/div. It ranges around between 0.4 and 5+ ns, both positive and negative values.  Not sure why it has trouble however, because it is still at 500 MSa/s at this point.  Stopping the scope and zooming in, the signals and relative spacing look ok.

The case 2 phase measurements are ok all the way through 100 us/div, with or without averaging.  Further increases in time base drops the sample rate to 250 MSa/s, 100 MSa/s, etc. so I think aliasing prevents correct measurements of this frequency anyway.

NOTE 2:
For Case 1, when averaging is off the skew measurements do NOT vary wildly like in Case 2, all the way up to 100 us/div.  The values are still wrong in Case 1, but they are stable.

[attach=5]
[attach=6]



Case 3:
This case shows two separate problems.

1. Each time I disable and re-enable that third channel, the phase difference between the two waveforms changes randomly! Both displayed and auto-measured.  Assuming ~32 degrees is expected, I can get it to vary between 24-54 degrees without doing anything else, demonstrated in the pics below.

2. The amplitude of both waveforms changes when I enable a third (unused) channel, from ~3.33 to ~3.66 V (10%).  I think 3.66 V is the correct one, but I technically don't know for sure since I lack any other test equipment to valildate against.

[attach=7]
[attach=8]
[attach=9]
[attach=10]



I collected more info, but got bogged down with so many permutations of quirks I found, so I thought I'd make this initial post first and see where it leads.







Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on September 15, 2020, 08:35:01 am
Maybe this is a result of sine intrpolation. On 1 Gs/s you would get like 8 samples / cycle, on 500 Ms/s you only get 4. I think that may explain the difference in enabling a channel. You could switch to dot mode and see wether something strange is also happening. My guess is that different lengths of cables result in different interpolation artifacts/sine fitting.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nez on September 15, 2020, 09:37:17 pm
I got some 50 Ohm terminators today, so I took some new screen caps that still demonstrate the issue, including dots mode and bode plots.

It's a very simple setup.

Test setup:
50 Ohm terminators at scope inputs.
The two cables have slightly different lengths, so some phase offset is expected.
Bode plots are 4 Vpp, 50 Ohm, swept from 10 Hz to 120 Mhz.

The other screen caps (waveforms) are with 120 MHz, 4 Vpp sine wave from AWG on both output channels (channel tracking on).

Result:
Bode plots have very different phase results across the entire sweep, depending on which pair of channels are used.
There is also a difference in amplitudes.

I noticed that the timebases used during the Bode plot capture are at 100 ns/div and up (slower).  This matches what I'm seeing while inspecting the waveforms at different timebases (the most error exists at 50 ns/div and up when using chan 1+3, for example).

Note the phase measurement in the screen cap of chans 1 + 3 @ 50ns/div.  The equivelent measurement with chans 1 + 2 don't have this phase error, even though the sample rate is halved.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on September 16, 2020, 09:23:19 am
Nice screenshots. I think the differences on the simple sine graphs are now consistent (looking at the persistent dot display)?
That time difference would correspond to a cable length difference about 25 cm. I guess you could safely use skew to make them align. (I'm not a bode plot user, so won't comment on that)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nez on September 17, 2020, 01:11:52 am
Nice screenshots. I think the differences on the simple sine graphs are now consistent (looking at the persistent dot display)?
That time difference would correspond to a cable length difference about 25 cm. I guess you could safely use skew to make them align. (I'm not a bode plot user, so won't comment on that)

Well, that isn't exactly the issue.  The separate Bode plots should all show virtually the same curve values for all permuations of channels used -- each plot is using the same BNC cables and AWG signals, after all.

Yeah the lines are straighter when using the 50 Ohm termination compared to my first, unterminated trials, but I didn't mean that the curviness within an individual plot before was a problem (since it was expected anyway due to reflections). The problem is that multiple plots don't match each other, and I'm seeing various disparities when viewing the waveforms.

It seems like there are some problems with how the two scope ADCs interplay with each other.

Also, I just measured my cables, and they are only about 4 or 5 cm different in length.
Cable 1: ~104 cm
Cable 2: ~108.5 cm


I decided to stop being lazy about my screen caps, and mark them up with notes to illustrate the aspects I'm looking at, attached below.

The Bode plots here are using Vpp for amplitude instead of dB this time.

I've added a bonus Bode plot showing an even stronger error I saw once...

EDIT:  All plots are with 4 Vpp signals from AWG.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on September 17, 2020, 08:39:05 am
I don't know how the fase difference is calculated, will the Siglent use the sampled data or the data that is made ready to display. One explanation of your problem would be the latter. There's about one pixel difference. Going on an even slower timebase, how does the fase difference calculation react?
Doing such calculations with a 1 Gs/s scope, with a 120 Mhz signal might be a bit too much to ask. I have no comparison, so I don't know what to expect...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nez on September 17, 2020, 09:21:39 am
I've got some data from different timebases in the tables in my original post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg3233194/#msg3233194).  In "Case 1" for chans 1+3, I've color coded where the measurements vary.

I'm hoping someone can test a similar setup!  I'll probably buy a 'matched' set of BNC cables soon for a better baseline without length differences.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: exe on September 17, 2020, 09:26:53 am
Did you try swapping cables?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on September 17, 2020, 10:26:10 am
After thinking about this some more, my guess would be that the fase difference calculation is done after interpolation. Thus "display data". That data will have poor horizontal "resolution/cycle" (vertical reso is alway poor  :D) when displaying a large number of cycles. This would lead to the conclusion to do such a calculation with a minimal amount of cycles.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nez on September 17, 2020, 10:47:25 am
Did you try swapping cables?

I just tried it out.  I swapped the cables, then kept that order while running the same Bode plot configurations as previously (see attached).  Problem remains, but of course the phase lines change to reflect the reversed order of cables.

After thinking about this some more, my guess would be that the fase difference calculation is done after interpolation. Thus "display data". That data will have poor horizontal "resolution/cycle" (vertical reso is alway poor  :D) when displaying a large number of cycles. This would lead to the conclusion to do such a calculation with a minimal amount of cycles.

Hmm not sure exactly, but whatever the cause, doesn't this make BodePlot II broken and instill uncertainty in general measurements? (...unless it's just a problem with my specific unit).  I can't really know what values to trust.

Edit:  Also, don't forget, the error is across the entire frequency sweep in the Bode plots.. so even much lower frequencies, the same time offset error is present (a 'fixed' amount of time then factored as a percentage of the 360 degree cycle, it seems to me).

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: exe on September 17, 2020, 11:03:19 am
I don't have knowledge to assist with this problem. Just a word of caution, at such frequencies problems can be easily hidden in setup. Like, I had phase shifts when wiggling cables around. If cables are not identical and setup is not perfect, I wouldn't trust measurements. Also, some phase shift between channels is, I think, normal (but, of course, not 30-60 degrees). It should be in specs.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on September 17, 2020, 11:20:24 am
Have you tried skewing one signal to make them even (using minimal cycles / screen)?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on September 18, 2020, 03:02:50 am
According to my tests in May 2019, the SDS1004X-E shows quite bad skew between its two ADCs with FW 6.1.33. This leads to huge phase errors if reference and output signal aren't processed by the same ADC. The skew is >0.9 ns, consequently the resulting phase error becomes visible at about 1MHz and above.

As far as I remember, the Deskew settings were ignored in Bode Plot mode. So while this skew is taken care of during normal operation, it shows up in the Bode Plot.

Consequence: if phase information is needed (which isn't alwasy the case), then this is only possible up to some MHz (depending on the rquired accuracy) with all 3 channels. For accurate phase plots at higher frequencies, only one channel (which has to be of the same ADC as the reference channel) can be used.

EDIT: skew value corrected
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nez on September 18, 2020, 05:28:33 am
According to my tests in May 2019, the SDS1004X-E shows quite bad skew between its two ADCs with FW 6.1.33. This leads to huge phase errors if reference and output signal aren't processed by the same ADC. The skew is >8 ns, consequently the resulting phase error becomes visible at about 1MHz and above.

As far as I remember, the Deskew settings were ignored in Bode Plot mode. So while this skew is taken care of during normal operation, it shows up in the Bode Plot.

Consequence: if phase information is needed (which isn't alwasy the case), then this is only possible up to some MHz (depending on the rquired accuracy) with all 3 channels. For accurate phase plots at higher frequencies, only one channel (which has to be of the same ADC as the reference channel) can be used.


Thanks for the info! That's very useful to know since I was just scratching my head earlier while trying to make plots with Deskew adjustments.

You are right, the phase response through 1 MHz looks very nice.

Seems like not accounting for the Deskew setting for Bode plots (or having an option to) is an oversight, but maybe there is reasoning to ignore it that I don't know.  I wonder how typical it is to make 'correction factor' plots, anyway (as I saw demonstrated in graybeard's impedance measurement video from last year), and how much the errors at high frequencies can be alleviated by doing so.

I feel like there is more going on to what I'm seeing that compounds the issue besides strictly the limitation you mentioned (e.g. waveform amplitudes changing depending on what other channels are enabled/disabled).  However, I'll take some time to consider things with this in mind.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on September 18, 2020, 06:50:26 am


Good to see you back!!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on September 19, 2020, 08:44:57 am
Attached is an old screenshot showing the phase error for all three Bode Plot channels with Ch.1 being the reference.

We can see that the actual skew is about 0.926 ns (40° phase shift at 120 MHz).
A skew less than 1 ns at a sample clock of 1 GHz for each ADC (500 MHz for each channel) isn't that bad after all - the only question remains why there is no deskew like during normal operation?

Of course I've brought this to Siglent's attention back then and the fact that it isn't fixed yet is either because of the very low priority of the Bode Plot or there are actually some technical reasons that we aren't aware of.

The 2nd screenshot shows the same scenario when viewed in traditional Y-t mode. Here we can see that the skew is well compensated (the remaining skew is due to the setup, not the scope).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: CharlotteSwiss on September 19, 2020, 12:31:01 pm
slightly off topic, but not too much: I have a younger brother (siglent 1202x-e); it often happens that when I print to save the screen, the oscilloscope freezes (no key responds), to turn it off I have to unplug it; does anyone in here have this unpleasant problem?
thank you
char 
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: blurpy on September 19, 2020, 12:48:55 pm
slightly off topic, but not too much: I have a younger brother (siglent 1202x-e); it often happens that when I print to save the screen, the oscilloscope freezes (no key responds), to turn it off I have to unplug it; does anyone in here have this unpleasant problem?
thank you
char 
 :popcorn:

I do too, on my 1204X-E. There's been some discussion on that in this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/msg3067512/#msg3067512 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/msg3067512/#msg3067512)

Haven't heard anything from Siglent on the matter.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: CharlotteSwiss on September 19, 2020, 02:02:53 pm
slightly off topic, but not too much: I have a younger brother (siglent 1202x-e); it often happens that when I print to save the screen, the oscilloscope freezes (no key responds), to turn it off I have to unplug it; does anyone in here have this unpleasant problem?
thank you
char 
 :popcorn:

I do too, on my 1204X-E. There's been some discussion on that in this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/msg3067512/#msg3067512 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/msg3067512/#msg3067512)

Haven't heard anything from Siglent on the matter.

thanks  blurpy for the testimony, so it's not just my 1202 problem ...
That Siglent pretends nothing is a good thing ...

 :--

I add: see my message below, did you see that a user solved it by returning to firmware .23?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: borjam on September 19, 2020, 02:14:40 pm
In my experience memory sticks can be a hit or miss. I was going to upgrade the firmware on my spectrum analyzer now. The first unti I grabbed didn't work on the Siglent, but the second did work flawlessly.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: CharlotteSwiss on September 19, 2020, 02:21:19 pm
In my experience memory sticks can be a hit or miss. I was going to upgrade the firmware on my spectrum analyzer now. The first unti I grabbed didn't work on the Siglent, but the second did work flawlessly.

sure, but when the Print problem occurs 4 times out of 5 ...
However, it seems that a user has fixed this bug by reverting to the previous firmware ..

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/msg3070454/#msg3070454 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/msg3070454/#msg3070454)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: blurpy on September 19, 2020, 03:42:46 pm
thanks  blurpy for the testimony, so it's not just my 1202 problem ...
That Siglent pretends nothing is a good thing ...

 :--

I add: see my message below, did you see that a user solved it by returning to firmware .23?

I noticed. Not sure if the same apply to older firmware for 1204X-E, but possibly.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on September 20, 2020, 03:27:04 am
In my experience memory sticks can be a hit or miss. I was going to upgrade the firmware on my spectrum analyzer now. The first unti I grabbed didn't work on the Siglent, but the second did work flawlessly.

With over 10 years experience with Siglent (and some others) I have always used Kingston sticks.
Older times 1G, then 2G and later 4 and 8G. Last years always 4 and 8G USB2.0 sticks after I find that these need keep and care because more and more difficult to find.

Only just in true genuine FAT32 format with 4k cluster size. (even if some products may accept different but for avoid mess because all accept this) Mostly FW update files just alone in root and naturally never ever  more that just one partition. These sticks are so cheap that no reason for gambling.
And of course Never exFAT, never NTFS. 
I have also always formatted these in Windows 7 or previously older so that I can be sure it is genuine FAT32. Careful with sticks what have used for some other purposes, they may need deep format for remove all even hidden things and residues. There is some special tools for these.

With these my own rules only for me I have never meet any single problem and I have done these more than just several times and quite wide range of Siglent products. I will keep these bit older sticks reserved just for this purpose.




Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nez on September 20, 2020, 05:09:54 am
Attached is an old screenshot showing the phase error for all three Bode Plot channels with Ch.1 being the reference.

We can see that the actual skew is about 0.926 ns (40° phase shift at 120 MHz).
A skew less than 1 ns at a sample clock of 1 GHz for each ADC (500 MHz for each channel) isn't that bad after all - the only question remains why there is no deskew like during normal operation?

Of course I've brought this to Siglent's attention back then and the fact that it isn't fixed yet is either because of the very low priority of the Bode Plot or there are actually some technical reasons that we aren't aware of.

The 2nd screenshot shows the same scenario when viewed in traditional Y-t mode. Here we can see that the skew is well compensated (the remaining skew is due to the setup, not the scope).


Well, quick update.

It looks like Deskew *IS* used in BodePlot II.....  but I have discovered that there are problems with Deskew that made it just appear by chance like it wasn't being used |O.

Deskew seems to work fine at 1 ns/div timebase, but is very broken at other timebases -- and those other timebases happen to be what Bode plots use while being generated.


For example:
Using the same ADC, e.g. Chans 1+2.

If I have two signals that are about 780 ps skewed, I can go to 1 ns/div timebase and adjust Deskew to get them to match perfectly.

However, when I then change to, say, 50 ns/div the phase measurement suddenly jumps back to what seems to be the orginal phase difference! (The Deskew value is still set)  Now, further adjusting the Deskew up or down doesn't affect the skew (visually or auto-measured) at all until 1 ns thresholds are reached -- at which point the skew measurement jumps another full ns to a new value and stays there until the next full ns higher/lower Deskew increment is reached.

If I change the Deskew enough to hit a threshold that it feels like changing the phase measurement at, *then* it will affect the Bode plot traces.

I see this weird Deskew problem below 50 ns/div as well.  20 and 10 ns/div are easy to see, while at 5 ns/div it is more subtle, but noticeable when changing from 0 to +10ps Deskew.

Hopefully this description makes sense.


I have been making a write-up to break down and describe the different issues I'm seeing, but it's not ready to post tonight (the testing is kind of tedious :P).  I'll add this to the list.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on September 20, 2020, 08:25:01 am
This might be caused a low horizontal resolution and thus roundoff. The resulting issues depends where in the pipeline is calculated/processed (deskewed) what.
The coarse calculation of the fase difference at 50 ns seems also a result of this.
So it's probably not a threshold, but "steps" due to round offs.

As a side note: some time ago I was trouble shouting roundoff errors in the voltage output of the SAG1021. I eventually couldn't find the exact way the calculation where sloppy, but the effect could be brought into the light.
The bottomline is when doing (integer) calculations do it in the right order and analyze what's rounded up or down thoroughly.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on September 20, 2020, 08:42:05 am
It looks like Deskew *IS* used in BodePlot II.....  but I have discovered that there are problems with Deskew that made it just appear by chance like it wasn't being used |O.

Deskew seems to work fine at 1 ns/div timebase, but is very broken at other timebases -- and those other timebases happen to be what Bode plots use while being generated.
Well, I've done rather deep investigations on many topics, some of them regarding phase measurements in general, also found (and reported) some related bugs back in 2018, but didn't further investigate the Bode Plot phase error between the two ADCs. Also, I  had used FW 6.1.33 and we cannot know what has changed since then.

For example:
Using the same ADC, e.g. Chans 1+2.

If I have two signals that are about 780 ps skewed, I can go to 1 ns/div timebase and adjust Deskew to get them to match perfectly.

However, when I then change to, say, 50 ns/div the phase measurement suddenly jumps back to what seems to be the orginal phase difference! (The Deskew value is still set)  Now, further adjusting the Deskew up or down doesn't affect the skew (visually or auto-measured) at all until 1 ns thresholds are reached -- at which point the skew measurement jumps another full ns to a new value and stays there until the next full ns higher/lower Deskew increment is reached.
This is the expected behavior. Basically, you cannot have a finer granularity than 1 ns with 1 GSa/s rate. For finer steps, we need interpolation. At 50 ns/div, we have the optimum setting with the highest waveform update rate, just because this is the shortest record length that doesn't need interpolation. Faster timebases require interpolation and consequently, the deskew can be performed with increasingly higher resolution.

If I change the Deskew enough to hit a threshold that it feels like changing the phase measurement at, *then* it will affect the Bode plot traces.

I see this weird Deskew problem below 50 ns/div as well.  20 and 10 ns/div are easy to see, while at 5 ns/div it is more subtle, but noticeable when changing from 0 to +10ps Deskew.

Hopefully this description makes sense.
Yes, it does. Hopefully my explanation makes sense too :)

For all measurements, the data is coming from the sample memory and not from the screen. Consequently, additional data buffers with interpolated data (at certain spots) would be required for accurate measurements below 2 ns resolution (with 4 channels in use).

I cannot check it right now, but I'm suspecting something. Maybe the data for measurements comes from the sample buffer for timebases >=50 ns/div and from the screen otherwise. Apparently that wouldn't be the case for Bode Plot right now…

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: CharlotteSwiss on September 20, 2020, 12:41:12 pm
Older times 1G, then 2G and later 4 and 8G. Last years always 4 and 8G USB2.0 sticks after I find that these need keep and care because more and more difficult to find.
Only just in true genuine FAT32 format with 4k cluster size.

sticks with a few GB are hardly found anymore, my smallest is 8GB.
But I saw that it was formatted fat 32 but at 8k allocation, now I try to 4k
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: CharlotteSwiss on September 20, 2020, 12:44:40 pm
I noticed. Not sure if the same apply to older firmware for 1204X-E, but possibly.

ops, I was confused that you had 1202 as mine ..

However in my opinion without having to go back to the previous firmware (updates are lost), Siglent can very well correct the problem with a subsequent firmware; you just have to want to, after all, customers spend money to buy their products.
Siglent 1202 is my first product of this brand, but if the engineers do not solve the Print button problem, I will not buy anything from this brand anymore.  :-//
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: borjam on September 22, 2020, 09:59:13 am
it's usually a good idea to stick to well known brands and to be careful where you purchase them.

There are lots of counterfeits of some of the big brands.

In the pro audio world, where SD cards are widely used it can be a real nightmare.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on September 22, 2020, 10:32:19 am
it's usually a good idea to stick to well known brands and to be careful where you purchase them.

There are lots of counterfeits of some of the big brands.

In the pro audio world, where SD cards are widely used it can be a real nightmare.

It's a nightmare, the jitter produced by those cheap SD cards is unbelievable!

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: borjam on September 22, 2020, 10:47:48 am
The jitter produced by those cheap SD cards is unbelievable!
SD cards are an atrocious invention. Most of them have optimizations for FAT filesystems. So if you try to format
them using something else you are doomed.

The spec was designed for writing in bursts.

I really miss Compact Flash cards. But of course CFs are much more expensive and the connector is much larger.

WAIT: you are not talking about sample jitter, right?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on September 22, 2020, 12:13:47 pm
WAIT: you are not talking about sample jitter, right?

I'm afraid I was.

I failed to see how any SD card could be too awful for audio use so I assumed audiophoolery.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: borjam on September 22, 2020, 12:45:26 pm
WAIT: you are not talking about sample jitter, right?

I'm afraid I was.

I failed to see how any SD card could be too awful for audio use so I assumed audiophoolery.
No no no!!

Pro audio recorders stream audio to the card almost continuously (in blocks of course, the recordings are stored as files, nothing surprising here, so no jitter audio voodoo!) and they usually read it back.

It sounds silly, but the store and forget approach would prove disastrous if you spent a whole day recording only to find garbage when you go back to the studio. It's much better to detect a failing card right away.

This places quite a stress on a medium designed mostly for bursty writes (a photo now and then). So it's common to have problems (write timeouts, etc) with cards from who knows where and counterfeits.

Audio manufacturers use to keep a list of verified card models. And, again, better make sure to source them from a reliable supplier.

No audiofoolery here, keep calm and carry on!  :box:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: zserg on September 22, 2020, 05:56:15 pm
Has already someone botherd to exchange the Intensity/Adjust encoder with a detented encoder?

I've been wondering the same thing.  :popcorn:

I have done it right after purchasing bc this non-detent encoder was driving me nuts - pretty weird design decision given that they have detented ones for vertical/horizontal anyway.
In fact, I've even taken the photos to dump here, but I'm a lazy arse so that never happened.  :-[
I can't remember the P/N of the original non-detented one, but it turned out to be some sort of Chinese unobtanium. After searching a bit through what ALPS/Bourns/Omron offer, the closest I was able to find dimension-wise was Bourns PEC12R-4220F-S0024.
To my taste it has a bit too much detent force, otherwise it has been working absolutely fine for the last half year.
[attach=1][attach=2]

UPD:
I still have the original part, it has no P/N, but LJV embossed on it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on September 22, 2020, 06:22:07 pm
Has already someone botherd to exchange the Intensity/Adjust encoder with a detented encoder?

I've been wondering the same thing.  :popcorn:

I have done it right after purchasing bc this non-detent encoder was driving me nuts - pretty weird design decision given that they have detented ones for vertical/horizontal anyway.
In fact, I've even taken the photos to dump here, but I'm a lazy arse so that never happened.  :-[
I can't remember the P/N of the original non-detented one, but it turned out to be some sort of Chinese unobtanium. After searching a bit through what ALPS/Bourns/Omron offer, the closest I was able to find dimension-wise was Bourns PEC12R-4220F-S0024.
To my taste it has a bit too much detent force, otherwise it has been working absolutely fine for the last half year.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

UPD:
I still have the original part, it has no P/N, but LJV embossed on it.

I may do this upgrade, as I would really enjoy a detented encoder on the intensity/adjust encoder.  Is there anything special that I should know about this upgrade before doing it?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: zserg on September 22, 2020, 07:23:26 pm
I may do this upgrade, as I would really enjoy a detented encoder on the intensity/adjust encoder.  Is there anything special that I should know about this upgrade before doing it?

Not anything that comes to my mind straight away. Unsoldering the old one was pretty straightforward with the desoldering wick.
The encoder I've listed above makes an audible click when turning even at low speeds - one might find it annoying.
I'd prefer a "softer" one with lower turning torque, but this Bourns was the only option I was able to source locally quickly.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: jlo on September 24, 2020, 02:12:03 pm
Hi, planning to buy my first oscilloscope, is the 1104X-E still recommended?

I'm studying to become an electrical engineer and will use it for audio projects with oscillators and filters as well as more digital automation projects with microcontrollers. As I learn more I want to be able to progress to more advanced projects. :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 25, 2020, 01:29:15 am
Hi, planning to buy my first oscilloscope, is the 1104X-E still recommended?

I'm studying to become an electrical engineer and will use it for audio projects with oscillators and filters as well as more digital automation projects with microcontrollers. As I learn more I want to be able to progress to more advanced projects. :)
Welcome to the forum.

You can't go wrong with one.

Look at its competitors, who else offers 500uV/div sensitivity, two 1 GSa/s ADC's each with 14 Mpts memory support, Bode plot and web server capability.
As a first scope these will serve you well for many years.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on September 25, 2020, 09:40:33 am
I like my unit very much. It was a very good investment in my home lab. In general it has a good hardware with software and UI/UX which can be much improved. During the lockdown in March I used it for working at home and the results I got were as good, as the results I got from much more expensive Tektronix and Keysight scopes I use at work. Still, compared to Tektronix and Keysight I have at work, it feels cheaper but you get what you pay for.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on September 25, 2020, 09:14:01 pm
Quote
who else offers 500uV/div sensitivity

When they were real, that´s another question.
By the way:

Today, we want to save a signal as matlab file to usbstick.
To be more precisely, the FFT.
Unfortunately, it saves only the channel, not the mathfunction from it - Did we miss something to do ?
Or couldn´t do the sds1104X-E it in general ?
If yes, that would be a showstopper.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Ringmodulator on September 28, 2020, 10:48:05 am
Has already someone botherd to exchange the Intensity/Adjust encoder with a detented encoder?

I've been wondering the same thing.  :popcorn:

I have done it right after purchasing bc this non-detent encoder was driving me nuts - pretty weird design decision given that they have detented ones for vertical/horizontal anyway.
In fact, I've even taken the photos to dump here, but I'm a lazy arse so that never happened.  :-[
I can't remember the P/N of the original non-detented one, but it turned out to be some sort of Chinese unobtanium. After searching a bit through what ALPS/Bourns/Omron offer, the closest I was able to find dimension-wise was Bourns PEC12R-4220F-S0024.
To my taste it has a bit too much detent force, otherwise it has been working absolutely fine for the last half year.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

UPD:
I still have the original part, it has no P/N, but LJV embossed on it.

Thank you, that was the information, I was looking for!

I have done such a mod to my 2 other scopes and the only regret was, not doing it in the fist place.

Chris

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on September 29, 2020, 03:14:39 am
Has already someone botherd to exchange the Intensity/Adjust encoder with a detented encoder?

I've been wondering the same thing.  :popcorn:

I have done it right after purchasing bc this non-detent encoder was driving me nuts - pretty weird design decision given that they have detented ones for vertical/horizontal anyway.
In fact, I've even taken the photos to dump here, but I'm a lazy arse so that never happened.  :-[
I can't remember the P/N of the original non-detented one, but it turned out to be some sort of Chinese unobtanium. After searching a bit through what ALPS/Bourns/Omron offer, the closest I was able to find dimension-wise was Bourns PEC12R-4220F-S0024.
To my taste it has a bit too much detent force, otherwise it has been working absolutely fine for the last half year.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

UPD:
I still have the original part, it has no P/N, but LJV embossed on it.

Thank you, that was the information, I was looking for!

I have done such a mod to my 2 other scopes and the only regret was, not doing it in the fist place.

Chris

Later after I'm back in my homeland and enough time I will open one SDS1000X-E and carefully look if there is possibility to do "hard core" mechanical (and possible circuit) modification for higher class Grayhill optical encoder least for this multipurpose encoder. Yes front panel PCB need of course mod and perhaps more... Least it is fun to investigate...

There are three names for good encoders... Grayhill  and  Grayhill and then also Grayhill.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: exe on September 30, 2020, 09:02:13 am
There are three names for good encoders... Grayhill  and  Grayhill and then also Grayhill.

Jeez, those are expensive  :-\
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on September 30, 2020, 01:19:58 pm
There are three names for good encoders... Grayhill  and  Grayhill and then also Grayhill.

Jeez, those are expensive  :-\

Cheap shit in important place may kill or be astronomic amount more expensive. It depends....

But naturally High-End or "state of art" grade expensive ones are overkill in cheap scope...  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on September 30, 2020, 01:44:27 pm
If one is looking for optical encoder variants, I believe the CTS Electrocomponents 291V1022FX24ABB (https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/cts-electrocomponents/291V1022FX24ABB/CT3172-ND/9900011) is the closest they come to fitting the bill.  Overall it's about 1/4 inch too tall (~7mm) but that may not matter depending on available clearance (I havent measured inside the unit).  It does have the right number of pins, as well as 24 PPR with push button and detents and operates at 5V.  If you can configure a pin adapter to get the correct pin orientation (if height turns out not to be a problem), it might be worth considering if you absolutely need an optical encoder.  I'm not too sure on the difference between incremental quadrature and 2-bit quadrature output, maybe someone can educate me (if there is indeed any difference at all).

If anyone can come up with a better detented optical encoder that will fit the bill let me know because I'm definitely interested
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bodzio_stawski on October 01, 2020, 07:17:59 am
I like my unit very much. It was a very good investment in my home lab. In general it has a good hardware with software and UI/UX which can be much improved. During the lockdown in March I used it for working at home and the results I got were as good, as the results I got from much more expensive Tektronix and Keysight scopes I use at work. Still, compared to Tektronix and Keysight I have at work, it feels cheaper but you get what you pay for.
Are new firmware versions still produced for 1104x-e? It's almost 3 years of that scope being on the market. I read that some issues (for example: bode plotting) are not solved yet. But Performa01 did a lot of work to help to improve that model (and what Siglent did with that work?). Or maybe hardware issues exists too and that is a problem (maybe Siglent tried to repair hardware faults by firmware updates and they only masked some problems).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on October 01, 2020, 08:00:35 am
I like my unit very much. It was a very good investment in my home lab. In general it has a good hardware with software and UI/UX which can be much improved. During the lockdown in March I used it for working at home and the results I got were as good, as the results I got from much more expensive Tektronix and Keysight scopes I use at work. Still, compared to Tektronix and Keysight I have at work, it feels cheaper but you get what you pay for.
Are new firmware versions still produced for 1104x-e? It's almost 3 years of that scope being on the market. I read that some issues (for example: bode plotting) are not solved yet. But Performa01 did a lot of work to help to improve that model (and what Siglent did with that work?). Or maybe hardware issues exists too and that is a problem (maybe Siglent tried to repair hardware faults by firmware updates and they only masked some problems).
Welcome to the forum.

Last FW version was back in March.
You can read the Release notes here:
https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=12

There are some frequency step issues with Bode plot that mainly originate from very wide sweeps where relays switch between ranges. This should be self explanatory to the experienced user.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on October 01, 2020, 07:23:05 pm
Today, we want to save a signal as matlab file to usbstick.
To be more precisely, the FFT.
Unfortunately, it saves only the channel, not the mathfunction from it - Did we miss something to do ?
Or couldn´t do the sds1104X-E it in general ?

Any ideas ?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on October 01, 2020, 07:25:34 pm
Quote
Hello, Sir :)

I've noticed that you are a happy user of a 1104x-e oscilloscope from Siglent :) Could you tell me, how your work looks with it? Is there something you love about it or something you hate in that scope? I am asking because I am very interested in it personally. Nevertheless, despite the not-so-large selection of oscilloscopes in a similar class (Rigol, GWInstek etc.), I still have some doubts. Mainly due to the first Performa01 user tests, when he found a lot of bugs (also hardware errors). It would be nice to hear your own thoughts from you.

Regards!

bodzio_stawski

Since bodzio_stawski is a new member and cant yet receive personal messages, I will respond to his above question in this thread:

I have been very happy with my siglent scope.  I think you will need to evaluate the general performance specs of various models for your personal desired applications in order to make an informed decision.  There are indeed bugs in the scope, as there are in any scope on the market (Rigol also suffers from various firmware and hardware bugs/issues).  You will have to evaluate how those bugs will affect your use of the scope with regard to your desired application.  For example, if you are doing a lot of bode plotting, the issues specific to this scope may make it more difficult to do that.  However, as far as I know there aren't any other scopes on the market in this price range that can do bode plotting, so you'll have to weigh that against issues that may be fixed eventually.

My only gripe about the siglent scope is that the wifi interface requires you to use a wifi SSID and password that have no spaces or special characters.  Obviously this limits the wifi networks you can connect to, which is an extremely frustrating thing for me as most of my bench runs wirelessly on automated software.  However for most other issues, this is not a problem.  I am hopeful that this will also be addressed in a firmware update soon.

All told, with the ability to ugprade the scope to 200MHz and all options for no extra charge, its about the best deal on the market in my opinion.

Let me know if you have any more questions.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nez on October 01, 2020, 11:30:54 pm
Quote
Hello, Sir :)

I've noticed that you are a happy user of a 1104x-e oscilloscope from Siglent :) Could you tell me, how your work looks with it? Is there something you love about it or something you hate in that scope? I am asking because I am very interested in it personally. Nevertheless, despite the not-so-large selection of oscilloscopes in a similar class (Rigol, GWInstek etc.), I still have some doubts. Mainly due to the first Performa01 user tests, when he found a lot of bugs (also hardware errors). It would be nice to hear your own thoughts from you.

Regards!

bodzio_stawski

Since bodzio_stawski is a new member and cant yet receive personal messages, I will respond to his above question in this thread:
...

I wanted to add that Bode plots on this scope seem to work very well in their own regard.  In general, I like BodePlot II a lot and the scope is still a great value.

The problems I was encountering were not really related to BodePlot II -- the plots were just  a way to help view them (separate post still in progress but nearly done, sorry I'm slow!).

For reference, I'll attach a couple of plots showing a nice (expected) response across the frequency range.
For the best signal match I could make, I used a pair of new Amphenol cables and a Pomona T-adapter coming out of one AWG output, going into 50 Ohm terminators at the scope.  The terminators were both bought used off ebay and I found that one of them was a bit out of spec on its resistance, so the plots reflect this difference I believe.

Plot amplitudes are Vout/Vin ratios.  One plot is linear and one is log scale.

The results seem solidly repeatable as well, so as long as you're sticking with CH1+2 or 3+4, making initial plots as correction factors is straight-forward.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bodzio_stawski on October 02, 2020, 11:33:11 am
Thank you for the reply :)

Quote
There are indeed bugs in the scope, as there are in any scope on the market (Rigol also suffers from various firmware and hardware bugs/issues).

Yes, It's true that some bugs will be existing. The truth is there will always be mistakes. At one point I had doubts that it was not the siglent's intention to pack a lot of functionalities into the device (regardless of whether they would work properly), unlike other manufacturers like Rigol, who tried to do little but exactly. From Bode's graphing function, I expected it to be simply less advanced than in devices intended for such work by default (and it is natural). However, it would be nice to see something innovative, even simple - but working properly :) Unfortunately, such verification and comparison of functionalities is not enough if it is done only on the basis of specifications available on the web. Therefore, I am glad that there are people who test such equipment and share the results on the forum :)


Quote
All told, with the ability to ugprade the scope to 200MHz and all options for no extra charge, its about the best deal on the market in my opinion.

What does it mean?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on October 02, 2020, 02:31:13 pm
What does it mean?

Check out this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bodzio_stawski on October 02, 2020, 04:48:08 pm
What does it mean?

Check out this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/)

Ok:) Looks good, but all in all, keeping 3-years warranty period is more important for me and at the moment I want to consider the 1104x-e as a scope without any optional/payable features and then check if it is still worth of money.

Unless a hacking of that scope to 200 MHz also improves quality of the other features that doesn't work correctly with previous version. Moreover, in the past I was afraid that all malfunctions or bugs will dissappear one day and then the manufacturer will say that there is no reason to keep this scope hacking-friendly ("so buy the additional functions or stary with an unfinished device") :) Now I see my thinking was bad, but I still think that in 2017 the manufacturer started selling an unfinished device.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on October 02, 2020, 07:27:13 pm
What does it mean?

Check out this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/)

Ok:) Looks good, but all in all, keeping 3-years warranty period is more important for me and at the moment I want to consider the 1104x-e as a scope without any optional/payable features and then check if it is still worth of money.

Unless a hacking of that scope to 200 MHz also improves quality of the other features that doesn't work correctly with previous version. Moreover, in the past I was afraid that all malfunctions or bugs will dissappear one day and then the manufacturer will say that there is no reason to keep this scope hacking-friendly ("so buy the additional functions or stary with an unfinished device") :) Now I see my thinking was bad, but I still think that in 2017 the manufacturer started selling an unfinished device.

Read through the thread a little more.  There is a method that involves extracting the license keys so that instead of hacking the scope you are just entering the license keys for the various options.  This should not void the warranty, in theory.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Howardlong on October 02, 2020, 08:09:27 pm
Although this scope isn't bad, I have a couple of comments about the optional LA and AFG.

If you're thinking of adding the LA to make it an MSO, I find the LA on this scope to be very weak indeed. For an MSO at this level, I consider the older Rigol DS1000Z+ with LA probes to be a significantly better solution. On the 1104X-E, the UI performance grinds to a halt with the LA attached and it's a substantial extra package to carry about that can't help but take up bench space.

Similarly, the external AFG on the Siglent also is nowhere near as neat as the Rigol's internal dual channel unit, but you have to buy the Rigol's at the time of scope purchase.

So if you're only looking for a 4 channel scope only, the Siglent is definitely a better than the Rigol DS1000Z series. Just that I find the LA and AFG on the Siglent are rather disappointing.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on October 02, 2020, 08:52:37 pm
@bodzio_stawski:

Couldn´t send you an answer to your PM - Your inbox is full..... :o
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 23, 2020, 06:49:05 am
From the 'that's interesting files":

As I do  ::) every new scope is powered up, 1x/10x switch checked, probes compensated, coloured rings applied and FW checked....but the first from a new box/lot of 4 scopes the 10x probe compensation was almost bang on for every probe !  :o
One was left unadjusted as it was already perfect and the other 3 needed the smallest of tweaks.

Ch4 below was typical of 'straight outta the packet'.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1116600)

Lets see if the other 3 scopes in this box and probes are as good.  :popcorn:
SN# SDSMMEBQ4R5***


And the next SDS1104X-E probes were almost perfect too !
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ballen on November 29, 2020, 07:23:04 pm
I am thinking about returning a recently-purchased Rigol DS1054Z and replacing it with a Siglent SDS1104X-E.  I'm trying to understand if the Siglent has any problems that will cause issues for me, so have been reading about it.  One thing I came across concerned the use of the memory buffer. On the  Rigol, at any horizontal sweep speed, I can specify to use a 24Msample buffer, put the scope into single trigger mode, and wait for the trigger event to happen.  When it does, the buffer will be full, with half the data coming from before the trigger event and half after.  I can then easily move around and look at the data on both sides of the event.  I find this very useful.

Is this also possible with the Siglent?  I have seen at least one person complaining that the equivalent to this was not possible, or at least not straightforward.  Is that right?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on November 29, 2020, 07:36:18 pm
Is this also possible with the Siglent?  I have seen at least one person complaining that the equivalent to this was not possible, or at least not straightforward.  Is that right?

You won't be able to zoom out if the screen was zoomed in when you hit "stop".

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds1104x-e-zoom-problem/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds1104x-e-zoom-problem/)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVxDibdosdI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVxDibdosdI)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLcdZjFuho0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLcdZjFuho0)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 29, 2020, 08:24:18 pm
I am thinking about returning a recently-purchased Rigol DS1054Z and replacing it with a Siglent SDS1104X-E.  I'm trying to understand if the Siglent has any problems that will cause issues for me, so have been reading about it.  One thing I came across concerned the use of the memory buffer. On the  Rigol, at any horizontal sweep speed, I can specify to use a 24Msample buffer, put the scope into single trigger mode, and wait for the trigger event to happen.  When it does, the buffer will be full, with half the data coming from before the trigger event and half after.  I can then easily move around and look at the data on both sides of the event.  I find this very useful.

Is this also possible with the Siglent?  I have seen at least one person complaining that the equivalent to this was not possible, or at least not straightforward.  Is that right?
Capture memory management strategy is mirrored to the same strategies used by LeCroy and Pico.
The Single or Stop capture memory depth is just what is on the display and detailed inspection of it is limited to zooming in and panning around within the original capture therefore zooming in on a 1ms/div capture at 1us/div offers a large record to inspect.

To take best advantage of this capture strategy for greater detail (more datapoints) slower timebases are used where memory depth is greatest then perform the capture and then zoom in.
If requiring a longer record a further strategy is used namely Zoom mode for a split screen display where the primary display contains the full capture record of ALL the memory the scope can provide and the timebase control becomes a dual timebase where with a press we can toggle between the primary capture (un zoomed) and inspect the full capture in the zoomed window.
Because Siglent DSO's display the sampling rate and memory depth available in all timebase settings the user can make informed decisions of the capture strategy that suits them best before the capture is taken.

If some error is made in a capture setting History mode can assist as it is always running in the background and frames are available for inspection at any time.

In some 8 years handling Siglent scopes these memory management strategies remain unchanged as they work as intended and give full control to the user who is the master of the scope....not mastered by the scope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on November 29, 2020, 08:52:13 pm
Is this also possible with the Siglent?
Capture memory management strategy is mirrored to the same strategies used by LeCroy and Pico.

... snip mumbo jumbo

Can't you just say "no"?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ballen on November 29, 2020, 11:03:58 pm
The Single or Stop capture memory depth is just what is on the display and detailed inspection of it is limited to zooming in and panning around within the original capture therefore zooming in on a 1ms/div capture at 1us/div offers a large record to inspect.

OK. So the idea is, if I want to capture a long sequence around a particular trigger, then slow down the horizontal sweep until the full memory that I want to retain is on screen.  For example if I am just looking at one channel and want to use the full 14 Msamples, then at 1 Gsample/second I need to capture 14 msec.  So slow down the sweep to 1msec/division, then do single shot.

After I have that, I can then scroll along to any point in that 14 msec of data, and use the horizontal control to zoom in as much as needed.

Is that right?  So the only difference with the Rigol is that I need to deliberately slow the sweep in advance rather than expecting a long data stretch to "just be there".  That's not unreasonable.




Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 29, 2020, 11:31:17 pm
The Single or Stop capture memory depth is just what is on the display and detailed inspection of it is limited to zooming in and panning around within the original capture therefore zooming in on a 1ms/div capture at 1us/div offers a large record to inspect.

OK. So the idea is, if I want to capture a long sequence around a particular trigger, then slow down the horizontal sweep until the full memory that I want to retain is on screen.  For example if I am just looking at one channel and want to use the full 14 Msamples, then at 1 Gsample/second I need to capture 14 msec.  So slow down the sweep to 1msec/division, then do single shot.

After I have that, I can then scroll along to any point in that 14 msec of data, and use the horizontal control to zoom in as much as needed.

Is that right?  So the only difference with the Rigol is that I need to deliberately slow the sweep in advance rather than expecting a long data stretch to "just be there".  That's not unreasonable.
Yes exactly this ^ although I should add that when using 2 channels due to there's 2 ADC's in 4ch X-E's you can place the 2nd channel on the other ADC which also offers 14 Mpts of memory support therefore not halving the memory depth or sampling rate like scopes that have a single ADC.

Also don't overlook the convenience of Zoom mode where there's always the full picture of what's going on and the settings in play although due to just the 7" display sadly Zoom mode splits the vertical 50/50 whereas some scopes offer a 70/30 split where there is less clutter when you have a lot going on such as 3ch decodes and decode tables etc.

Edit
However to reduce display clutter you can Hide traces and have them still influence the way the scope works such as hiding a Clk or CS.

Edit
From early in this thread before all info was added to channel tabs, this image shows Zoom mode using channels on each ADC where the full 14 Mpts is available at slow timebase settings.
Zoomed window is so magnified the marker stripe of the zoomed timebase is nearly invisible below the H Pos arrow at the top of the display.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=345868)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 03, 2020, 01:31:40 pm
I'd like to read the complete state of the scope using SCPI commands to be able to reload it later on. With most parameters this can be done, but I seem to have found 2 exceptions:
* The visibility of the trace (wether its enabled, but hidden)
* The "Enhanced by bits" parameter of the aquisition.

Maybe I'm missing something? I know a binairy version of the state can be retrieved with a single command, but because that format is not documented, I wouldn't want to take that road. Also when only different parameters values (determined by reading the current state) are set using dedicated commands this is much faster (depending on the number of differences). The saved state should also be editable, thus no simple binairy reading and the writing the same stuff.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ballen on December 03, 2020, 04:44:37 pm
 I just got a Siglent SDS1104X-E today.  I'm already happier with this than with the Rigol 1054Z that it replaced.  The traces behave as I expect when I zoom, the individual ADC values behave as I would expect, and the input noise is significantly lower.  It took about 5 minutes to generate and enter the SDS1204X-E upgrade key, so that was also good.

One question: when I open the web interface from my computer, I see the display very nicely.  But according to the documentation, I should also have access to controls from my computer brower.  But they're missing!  Is it possible to control the scope from a networked computer, and if so, where are the controls?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bkmit on December 03, 2020, 05:18:13 pm
[attachimg=1] Tap this button!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ballen on December 03, 2020, 05:40:21 pm
Thank you!!! Tapping that thin blue button on the top right opened the controls.  I had not seen it!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 03, 2020, 07:03:44 pm
I'd like to read the complete state of the scope using SCPI commands to be able to reload it later on. With most parameters this can be done, but I seem to have found 2 exceptions:
* The visibility of the trace (wether its enabled, but hidden)
* The "Enhanced by bits" parameter of the aquisition.

Maybe I'm missing something? I know a binairy version of the state can be retrieved with a single command, but because that format is not documented, I wouldn't want to take that road. Also when only different parameters values (determined by reading the current state) are set using dedicated commands this is much faster (depending on the number of differences). The saved state should also be editable, thus no simple binairy reading and the writing the same stuff.
Yep, looking at:
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/document/ProgrammingGuide_PG01-E02C.pdf
Neither of these seem available.  :-//

Email sent to tech support.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ballen on December 03, 2020, 09:17:59 pm
I have a Siglent SDS1104X-E hacked to 200 MHz and have installed the WiFi option.  At the moment I have no plans to get or use the Arbitrary Waveform Generator (AWG) or the Logic Analyzer (LA) but was wondering, is there any reason NOT to install them?  Will it have any negative effect on performance or in some other way?  If not, I might as well install them, perhaps in a few years some cheap AWG or LA hardware will turn up on Ebay.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 03, 2020, 10:38:34 pm
I have a Siglent SDS1104X-E hacked to 200 MHz and have installed the WiFi option.  At the moment I have no plans to get or use the Arbitrary Waveform Generator (AWG) or the Logic Analyzer (LA) but was wondering, is there any reason NOT to install them?  Will it have any negative effect on performance or in some other way?  If not, I might as well install them, perhaps in a few years some cheap AWG or LA hardware will turn up on Ebay.
Not at all however you have 30 free trial uses for any options so they are effectively active already albeit only for 30 uses.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ballen on December 05, 2020, 07:36:41 am
I am liking my hacked SDS1104X-E a lot.  Features that I like in comparison with the DS1054Z that I returned include:

- display is a simple 1-1 mapping of the data (no disappearing data in dots mode)
- the heat map "color mode" display looks as if it will be useful
- lower input noise/higher vertical sensitivity
- the built-in web server works well, and it's easy and cheap to add WiFi capability
- able to quickly drop data files/snapshots on my desktop via the web
- the FFT works very well (I've only played around with the calibrator signal)

One thing I would find useful is to have horizontal sweep settings much slower than 100s/division, for data logging.  For example I'm just replacing the crappy NiCd batteries & charging circuit in a precision clinometer (Talyvel 4) with a constant current source + battery managament/balance board + 18650 lithium ion batteries.  The meter was set to show a "low batt" indicator when either the positive or negative battery rail drops below 7v.  I'd like to adjust that threshold to indicate (say) 2 hours of remaining battery life.  But what is that?  Ideally I would connect one channel each to the positive and negative battery supply, and one channel each to the regulated +-5V internal rails.  Then just run it for a day, logging (say) 100 data points/second = 36,000/hour for 10 hours.  A quick look at the plots would let me see when the regulated rails drop below 5V, then I can see what the battery voltage is, 2 hours before that.

I'm sure that there are data loggers just for this, and yes I can rig up a script on my laptop to do the logging. But would be nice to just do it on the scope.  If there were horizontal sweeps going to 5000 or 10000 secs/division that would do it nicely.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 05, 2020, 07:48:37 am
 :)
Maybe you can be tempted to get the right tool for that job like one of these:
https://int.siglent.com/products-overview/sdl1000x/
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 05, 2020, 09:32:19 am
I am liking my hacked SDS1104X-E a lot.  Features that I like in comparison with the DS1054Z that I returned include:

- display is a simple 1-1 mapping of the data (no disappearing data in dots mode)
- the heat map "color mode" display looks as if it will be useful
- lower input noise/higher vertical sensitivity
- the built-in web server works well, and it's easy and cheap to add WiFi capability
- able to quickly drop data files/snapshots on my desktop via the web
- the FFT works very well (I've only played around with the calibrator signal)

One thing I would find useful is to have horizontal sweep settings much slower than 100s/division, for data logging.  For example I'm just replacing the crappy NiCd batteries & charging circuit in a precision clinometer (Talyvel 4) with a constant current source + battery managament/balance board + 18650 lithium ion batteries.  The meter was set to show a "low batt" indicator when either the positive or negative battery rail drops below 7v.  I'd like to adjust that threshold to indicate (say) 2 hours of remaining battery life.  But what is that?  Ideally I would connect one channel each to the positive and negative battery supply, and one channel each to the regulated +-5V internal rails.  Then just run it for a day, logging (say) 100 data points/second = 36,000/hour for 10 hours.  A quick look at the plots would let me see when the regulated rails drop below 5V, then I can see what the battery voltage is, 2 hours before that.

I'm sure that there are data loggers just for this, and yes I can rig up a script on my laptop to do the logging. But would be nice to just do it on the scope.  If there were horizontal sweeps going to 5000 or 10000 secs/division that would do it nicely.

There is one thing what can use for some kind of things. No it is not continuous and it have some limits but. There was long time ago I need watch some system and need know roughly how long it takes when something happen. There 1 second resolution was enough and I have just one oscilloscope for collect data.

Solution was. Use SDS1000X-E  History buffer because I realize I do not need just continuous  trace.

There is up to 80000 wfms buffer.
Then I think it is enough I get one mesurement every one second. I need data, not beautiful nice curve or other trend.
Do I need generator what trig scope every second.  ... well, no. There are timers in Trigger menu! Example trig Holdoff, up to 1.5s. So just set for 1s and fine adjust for best result.

And if set 10us div then get 140 samples to memory every second. If it is near DC also can look samples average then later after all collected.  of course for more short time data log it can adjust very different but always there is some dead time between segments.
After 80000 second memory is full. Then open history and start looking. Also there can see time stamp where can look perfect relative time of these "segments". 

One form of "datalogger."





Of course speed, one segment size etc can adjust as need and how is possible. Alone with scope without any extra can do this. Interval can change. Of coutse there is limits and  need look what is optimal for needs .. if it is possible depends what is real need.
Just one application hint.

Long time I have wished they add more range for t/div. Just change some parameter in system software, it do not cost "anything".  1000s/div least... if not more. This give over 3.8h continuous data so please least 2000s for some tiny and simple discharge "monitor" or what ever.  But this history method have advantage that user can look one segment average.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ballen on December 05, 2020, 09:46:04 am
Maybe you can be tempted to get the right tool for that job like one of these:
https://int.siglent.com/products-overview/sdl1000x/
 

Given that I might do something like this a couple of more times in my lifetime, not worth it.  Also, it's not really the right tool.   I want to drain the batteries with the Talyvel (which is not a constant load and drains the +- supplies at a different rate) and monitor the internal supply voltage of that at the same time as I monitor the batteries.

EDIT: I just realised the RF-LOOP has provided a perfect and simple solution!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ballen on December 05, 2020, 09:49:22 am
Solution was. Use SDS1000X-E  History buffer because I realize I do not need just continuous  trace.

Do I need generator what trig scope every second.  ... well, no. There are timers in Trigger menu! Example trig Holdoff, up to 1.5s. So just set for 1s and fine adjust for best result.

And if set 10us div then get 140 samples to memory every second. If it is near DC also can look samples average then later after all collected.  of course for more short time data log it can adjust very different but always there is some dead time between segments.
After 80000 second memory is full. Then open history and start looking. Also there can see time stamp where can look perfect relative time of these "segments". 

One form of "datalogger."

Thank you, that's a perfect solution!!

EDIT: I've been playing around to get this to work, and realised that I don't understand history/sequence/frames.  I've tried to read the manual, but this part is not well written, and I have not figured out how to make this work other than randomly.  Is there a written explanation somewhere, or a video online, that demonstrates/explains this?  Note: I am coming from the analog/CRT scope world, so this is probably just lack of experience.  But I have no internal mental model for how frames/sequences/history works.  What's going on under the hood?

EDIT 2: Google searching identified this document, which explains the general idea.  But I still need a step-by-step tutorial, and a better mental model of what's going on inside the black box.
https://siglentna.com/operating-tip/siglent-x-series-oscilloscopes-sequence-history-mode/

EDIT 3:  OK, I learned that in acquire mode you don't see anything on the screen, and with a 1 second holdoff, any adjustments to gains etc take 1 second to shown on the display!

Anyway, by setting a very fast horizontal sweep, I can capture 70 points per sample.  So setup AC line as the trigger, holdoff 1 second.  Then log voltages on Ch 1-4.  Set desired sequence number to max value  80k and start.  This logs 70 points every 1 second.  80,000 seconds is 22 hours, which is plenty of time.  Then I just scroll through the frames to identify when the voltage has dropped to the desired level. 

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 05, 2020, 10:15:42 am
Solution was. Use SDS1000X-E  History buffer because I realize I do not need just continuous  trace.

Do I need generator what trig scope every second.  ... well, no. There are timers in Trigger menu! Example trig Holdoff, up to 1.5s. So just set for 1s and fine adjust for best result.

And if set 10us div then get 140 samples to memory every second. If it is near DC also can look samples average then later after all collected.  of course for more short time data log it can adjust very different but always there is some dead time between segments.
After 80000 second memory is full. Then open history and start looking. Also there can see time stamp where can look perfect relative time of these "segments". 

One form of "datalogger."

Thank you, that's a perfect solution!!
I once had some fun with using the scope for very precise ( 0.1 mV precision at around 1.2V) datalogging.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/battery-charging-using-a-siglent-sds1104x-and-spd3303x/msg2864724/#msg2864724 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/battery-charging-using-a-siglent-sds1104x-and-spd3303x/msg2864724/#msg2864724)

Just to give an idea what is possible using scripts.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 05, 2020, 11:44:43 pm
EDIT: I've been playing around to get this to work, and realised that I don't understand history/sequence/frames.  I've tried to read the manual, but this part is not well written, and I have not figured out how to make this work other than randomly.  Is there a written explanation somewhere, or a video online, that demonstrates/explains this?  Note: I am coming from the analog/CRT scope world, so this is probably just lack of experience.  But I have no internal mental model for how frames/sequences/history works.  What's going on under the hood?
Instead of using the full buffer for one capture, thus one trigger. It handles more triggers by filling parts of the buffer (segments/frames) in sequence.
Analogy:
Instead of taking one photo, its more like recording a movie.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 06, 2020, 12:57:55 am
EDIT: I've been playing around to get this to work, and realised that I don't understand history/sequence/frames.  I've tried to read the manual, but this part is not well written, and I have not figured out how to make this work other than randomly.  Is there a written explanation somewhere, or a video online, that demonstrates/explains this?  Note: I am coming from the analog/CRT scope world, so this is probably just lack of experience.  But I have no internal mental model for how frames/sequences/history works.  What's going on under the hood?
Instead of using the full buffer for one capture, thus one trigger. It handles more triggers by filling parts of the buffer (segments/frames) in sequence.
Analogy:
Instead of taking one photo, its more like recording a movie.
Yes with the invisible 56 Mpt (IIRC) History buffer that runs continuously alongside the 2x 14 Mpts of memory depth.
Simply your s/div setting and its corresponding memory depth determines how many History frames can be filled.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 06, 2020, 06:06:23 am


EDIT: I've been playing around to get this to work, and realised that I don't understand history/sequence/frames.  I've tried to read the manual, but this part is not well written, and I have not figured out how to make this work other than randomly.  Is there a written explanation somewhere, or a video online, that demonstrates/explains this?  Note: I am coming from the analog/CRT scope world, so this is probably just lack of experience.  But I have no internal mental model for how frames/sequences/history works.  What's going on under the hood?


It is explained bit more but unfortunately "scrambled by natural enigma". Our "enigma" is our Finnish language what is said is second difficult after Chinese in world. 
In some images there is some english/finglish explanations. But more deep text explanations just with Finnish.
Originally intention have been also make it English but... first I need The Perfect version by Finnish and now it is not this level. Images and text are preliminary versions that have been intended to be improved - later. Partially these are based SDS1000X versions and then SDS1000X-E versions. But one problem have been just this... models after models, FW verssions after FW versions and neve can know what next version change details or add functions and functionality.  So these are more or less partially obsolete. Always they are. 
But, The Principle is same. 

 About wfm speed and history/sequence buffer with different settings. txt by Finnish (https://siglent.fi/oskilloskooppi-tietoa-sds1004x-e--wfm-speed.html)
Including some wfm speed explanations and tables  with some settings about segments and memory and total memory
Most relevat images from there.
Note: If do not need fast sequence, same can do just in normal mode when current wfm speed is enough. BUT there is one exception. If it is important to set perfect number of segments it is not possible in normal mode. History use in this case just max history FIFO length, until you interrupt acquisition after any change before FIFO is full and start overflow.
Every settings change reset FIFO and force start from zero in normal mode. Sequence mode have twi modes, repeating or single sequence.

(https://siglent.fi/data/SDS1000X-E-4-CH/wfmspeed-1104X-E.png)

(https://siglent.fi/data/SDS1000X-E-4-CH/table-amount-of-segments-wfmbuffer.png)



Then some explanation about always background working continuous wfm history buffer (FIFO). Txt by Finnish (https://siglent.fi/oskilloskooppi-sekvenssi-segmentti-ja-historia-tallennus.html)

Most important images from there. Note that principle is same also in SDS1000X-E

(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X/history-segment.png)

(https://siglent.fi/pub8S/SDS1000X/SDS-WaveformHistoryAndSegBuff.png)

ETA:NOTE: All these tables may have some inaccuracies due to FW changes after these tables made.
This is big problem today. All documents goes to obsolete class faster and faster.
When old times I use some analog scope it stay same years after years, all manuals and verty detailed manuals was more than perfect and errata sheets quite rare.




Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 06, 2020, 10:31:14 am
EDIT: I've been playing around to get this to work, and realised that I don't understand history/sequence/frames.  I've tried to read the manual, but this part is not well written, and I have not figured out how to make this work other than randomly.  Is there a written explanation somewhere, or a video online, that demonstrates/explains this?  Note: I am coming from the analog/CRT scope world, so this is probably just lack of experience.  But I have no internal mental model for how frames/sequences/history works.  What's going on under the hood?
Instead of using the full buffer for one capture, thus one trigger. It handles more triggers by filling parts of the buffer (segments/frames) in sequence.
Analogy:
Instead of taking one photo, its more like recording a movie.
I wasn't aware of the buffer being used to its capacity in normal mode as well (building up history), that really nice to know!
I saw multiple waves stacked on each other,  but never gave it much thought.
The reason for this might be because I don't like fiddling with a scope that much (its location on the bench is not optimal), hence the reason to have it setup with scripts  :-+. Also when I like to inspect a waveform in detail I transfer it to Excel and do the zooming and stuff using Excel. That way one can also get very readable graphs (quantities on axis) with some benefits of being able to add datalabels).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: thaistatos on December 06, 2020, 09:07:26 pm
anyone (in Germany) interested on short notice:
Meilhaus has these scopes on sale. (until midnight).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: masterx81 on December 06, 2020, 09:20:15 pm
At 437.92€ shipped to italy the 1104x-e! Really good price, best seen. Finally, got one! Thanks for the info!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 06, 2020, 10:34:46 pm
Can someone here describe *exactly* how the slope triggering works?   Because it looks to me like it's buggy.

Here's my setup:

The waveform is an asymmetric triangle wave with a period of about 17 milliseconds, and a voltage range of 3V to just over 5V, with the rising edge taking about 4ms and the falling edge taking about 13ms.

And the trigger definition I'm using is as follows:

Type: slope
Slope: rising
Voltage boundaries: 3.5V to 4.5V
Limit range type: [-- . --]
Limit range values: 1.2ms to 1.4ms
Noise reject: off


Now, if I'm not mistaken about how the trigger setup above is supposed to work, this should result it in triggering *only* if it finds that the signal first passes upwards through 3.5V and then, 1.2 to 1.4ms later, passes upwards through 4.5V, yielding a slope of between 714 and 833 V/s.

The problem is that it is triggering occasionally on the *falling* edge of the waveform.  I can easily detect this by setting up a mask and telling it to stop upon violation of the mask.  I'm performing the capture at a full 14 million points for maximum resolution.  When I zoom in I can see that there's noise, but I'm unable to find noise such that there's a rising edge passing through 3.5V (I am able to see the second one passing through 4.5V some 1.2 to 1.4 ms later, which is that point at which the trigger fired).  The latter should be, and is, visible at the trigger point, so the latter condition is being met.  But I can't find the corresponding starting point.  The voltage at -1.2ms is around 4.66V and at -1.4ms is around 4.70V, so the amount of noise that would be needed for it to see a rising edge passing through 3.5V is at least 1.16V.  But the maximum amount of noise I'm able to see in the captured waveform looks to be about 250mV, far less than what would be needed to fire the starting condition of the trigger.  As such, I cannot find any reason for the trigger to be firing here.  The very definition of the trigger should be immune to false triggering on the downwards slope as long as there isn't a pair of rising edges separated by both the defined voltage difference *and* the defined time differences, something that should be impossible if the maximum noise excursion is well below the difference between the specified voltages.  And yet, it *is* triggering in that fashion.  The only way to prevent that from happening is to tell it to reject noise, but in light of the trigger definition, that shouldn't be necessary at all ... unless the triggering mechanism doesn't work the way I think it does.

And hence, my question: how *exactly* does the slope triggering mechanism work, and why would it be triggering on noise in the seeming absence of an initial rising edge that meets the defined criteria?

I realize that it's possible for the triggering mechanism to see something that isn't being captured, but this seems to be consistent: I *never* see the starting condition captured in the waveform.  I even went to the trouble to export the entire 14M points worth of waveform to a CSV and ran a program to show the minimum voltage seen between -1.4ms and 0ms, and the value I get back is 4.33 volts at -6.432 us.  That's well above the 3.5 volts that a rising edge would have to pass through to meet the starting condition requirement.  I can attempt to attach the CSV if someone is interested in it, though it's 32 megabytes zipped (the forum might now allow an attachment that large).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 06, 2020, 10:59:47 pm
Have you checked Holdoff is set to minimum ?
Frequency ? So we can play along at home.
Screenshot using a Run/Stop so we can also see the waveform.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on December 06, 2020, 11:08:40 pm
The only way to prevent that from happening is to tell it to reject noise, but in light of the trigger definition, that shouldn't be necessary at all ... unless the triggering mechanism doesn't work the way I think it does.

And hence, my question: how *exactly* does the slope triggering mechanism work, and why would it be triggering on noise in the seeming absence of an initial rising edge that meets the defined criteria?

What is your effective sample rate during your capture?  Can you try changing the acquisition mode to 'PEAK' and see if you can capture any relevant noise that way?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 06, 2020, 11:32:34 pm
Interesting.. Maybe post some screenshots of different zoom levels? (Trigger settings included.)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 12:12:43 am
Have you checked Holdoff is set to minimum ?

Holdoff isn't available with the slope trigger type.


Quote
Frequency ? So we can play along at home.

60 Hz.  Capture rate is 500 megasamples/sec.  I'm using 2ms/div horizontal and 500mV/div vertical.


Quote
Screenshot using a Run/Stop so we can also see the waveform.

I'll show that along with the mask.  This time I captured using "peak detect", and I've saved the CSV for that as well.  Analysis of the CSV shows no real difference with respect to finding the initial condition despite peak detect being used.  This time the smallest voltage seen between -1.4ms and 0 is 4.33V, well above the 3.5V or less one would expect to see.

How do I take a screenshot with it showing the menu it was on immediately prior to hitting the "save/recall" button?  Whenever I take a screenshot, it always shows the "save/recall" menu itself, which isn't very useful here ...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 07, 2020, 12:14:29 am
How do I take a screenshot with it showing the menu it was on immediately prior to hitting the "save/recall" button?  Whenever I take a screenshot, it always shows the "save/recall" menu itself, which isn't very useful here ...
Blue Print button.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 07, 2020, 12:18:00 am
Have you tried swapping the Level positions ?
See how they are half pointers.....and you're using a rising trigger.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 12:20:53 am
Interesting.. Maybe post some screenshots of different zoom levels? (Trigger settings included.)

I'll do better than that.  Here's the CSV from the 14 megasample capture with it in peak detect mode, from -1.4ms to 0ms.  It's in the attached zip file.  I took the header portion and put it at the top, so it'll look like a full CSV generated by the scope (sans the serial number), but it's actually just a small subset of the full capture.

This CSV corresponds to the screenshot that I just posted, which I'll add again just for clarity.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 12:24:05 am
Have you tried swapping the Level positions ?
See how they are half pointers.....and you're using a rising trigger.

It doesn't let me do that.  In the soft menu item, it has them labeled as "lower" and "upper", and there they're correct: 3.5V for lower, 4.5V for upper.  It doesn't let me switch them.

To be clear, the trigger *does* work, in that it will actually trigger on the rising edge most of the time.  The problem is that it will also occasionally trigger on the falling edge inexplicably.   I'm using "normal" trigger mode, so it would be obvious if it weren't triggering properly.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 07, 2020, 12:26:19 am
Wouldn't a mask fail not also stop the aquisition?

Indeed level 1 is the high level, level 2 the low, which surprised me when decoding the scpi response.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on December 07, 2020, 12:33:14 am
Are you using normal or auto trigger mode?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 12:35:09 am
Wouldn't a mask fail not also stop the aquisition?

The mask feature can be configured to stop the acquisition upon failure, and that's how I've got it configured here.  It's really handy if you want to catch a misbehaving waveform in the act.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 12:37:48 am
Are you using normal or auto trigger mode?

Normal.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 07, 2020, 12:38:54 am
Wouldn't a mask fail not also stop the aquisition?

The mask feature can be configured to stop the acquisition upon failure, and that's how I've got it configured here.  It's really handy if you want to catch a misbehaving waveform in the act.
So we're not looking at a triggered stop in the screenshot.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 07, 2020, 12:43:19 am
Maybe using segments and review them for a failing trigger is an idea? Thus not using masks ar all?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 01:01:10 am
Wouldn't a mask fail not also stop the aquisition?

The mask feature can be configured to stop the acquisition upon failure, and that's how I've got it configured here.  It's really handy if you want to catch a misbehaving waveform in the act.
So we're not looking at a triggered stop in the screenshot.  :-//

The trigger just determines when the waveform is captured.  I'm using the mask to automatically stop the scope when a violation of the expected waveform is detected.  They're completely different subsystems that work in tandem.

The issue here is that the triggering mechanism is capturing waveforms when I wouldn't expect it to.  When that happens, the mask mechanism detects it and stops the scope, thus allowing you to see the waveform that was captured and which failed the mask.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 07, 2020, 01:07:25 am
Wouldn't a mask fail not also stop the aquisition?

The mask feature can be configured to stop the acquisition upon failure, and that's how I've got it configured here.  It's really handy if you want to catch a misbehaving waveform in the act.
So we're not looking at a triggered stop in the screenshot.  :-//

The trigger just determines when the waveform is captured.  I'm using the mask to automatically stop the scope when a violation of the expected waveform is detected.  They're completely different subsystems that work in tandem.

The issue here is that the triggering mechanism is capturing waveforms when I wouldn't expect it to.  When that happens, the mask mechanism detects it and stops the scope, thus allowing you to see the waveform that was captured and which failed the mask.
But there're now 2 things in play...
Either the triggering does not work as you expect OR the masking and when it stops doesn't work as you expect... It seems like a good idea to take one away..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on December 07, 2020, 01:12:55 am
But there're now 2 things in play...
Either the triggering does not work as you expect OR the masking and when it stops doesn't work as you expect... It seems like a good idea to take one away..

You don't need the mask to see that the trigger has happened in the wrong spot and the mask doesn't affect the trigger or the capture, it just stops the scope and prevents any future triggers.  What you see is exactly what you would see if you got lucky with a single shot and captured the mistrigger.  The mask isn't anything to worry about here, but I'm a bit puzzled as to the operation of the trigger.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on December 07, 2020, 01:15:16 am
The issue here is that the triggering mechanism is capturing waveforms when I wouldn't expect it to. 

Can you change the timebase to 1ms/div so that you get the full 1GS/s sample rate and then do the same test to see if it mistriggers? 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 01:17:56 am
Maybe using segments and review them for a failing trigger is an idea? Thus not using masks ar all?

Sure, I could do that too.  The problem is that in order to do that, I have to reduce the number of samples captured, thus reducing the chance that I'll see what the triggering mechanism saw.  I'd also have to manually stop the scope quickly enough that the errant waveform is still in one of the segments.  I could use a 14k point sample buffer, and that'd give me lots of segments, but that would also minimize the chance that I'd see the problem that the triggering mechanism saw.

I did try that just now, by the way (using a 14k sample buffer), but haven't yet found a waveform where it was apparent that the triggering mechanism was doing the right thing by triggering on what looks like the falling edge.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 07, 2020, 01:20:00 am
But there're now 2 things in play...
Either the triggering does not work as you expect OR the masking and when it stops doesn't work as you expect... It seems like a good idea to take one away..

You don't need the mask to see that the trigger has happened in the wrong spot and the mask doesn't affect the trigger or the capture, it just stops the scope and prevents any future triggers.  What you see is exactly what you would see if you got lucky with a single shot and captured the mistrigger.  The mask isn't anything to worry about here, but I'm a bit puzzled as to the operation of the trigger.
Maybe it is a combination of mask and trigger, so I would first start to look for the simplest setup that causes the issue. If it doesn't happen without a mask thats good info. If it also happens without a mask the screenshot might give a better insight. For now it seems that the inverse of the mask would have given a valid trigger.. thats puzzling.. and cannot be discarded imo.
Edit..
Not really puzzling,  that how the mask get synced off course.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 01:22:22 am
The issue here is that the triggering mechanism is capturing waveforms when I wouldn't expect it to. 

Can you change the timebase to 1ms/div so that you get the full 1GS/s sample rate and then do the same test to see if it mistriggers?

Sure thing.  That's in progress now.  Watch it not mistrigger because it knows it'll get caught redhanded with this setup.    :D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 07, 2020, 01:31:23 am
Sure, I could do that too.  The problem is that in order to do that, I have to reduce the number of samples captured, thus reducing the chance that I'll see what the triggering mechanism saw.  I'd also have to manually stop the scope quickly enough that the errant waveform is still in one of the segments.  I could use a 14k point sample buffer, and that'd give me lots of segments, but that would also minimize the chance that I'd see the problem that the triggering mechanism saw.
In aquisition menu, you can set the number of segments you want to capture and then it stops. These can then be replayed, I think a wrong one should be easy to spot then. Using a script the segments can be analysed automatically,  but that might be a bridge to far..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 01:50:16 am
Sure, I could do that too.  The problem is that in order to do that, I have to reduce the number of samples captured, thus reducing the chance that I'll see what the triggering mechanism saw.  I'd also have to manually stop the scope quickly enough that the errant waveform is still in one of the segments.  I could use a 14k point sample buffer, and that'd give me lots of segments, but that would also minimize the chance that I'd see the problem that the triggering mechanism saw.
In aquisition menu, you can set the number of segments you want to capture and then it stops. These can then be replayed,

Interesting, I didn't know that.  That could come in handy.  But it presumes that the failure rate is high enough for a failure to occur within the number of segments you specified.  That said, I suppose you could just keep running it until a failure is seen.

If you're not using the mask mechanism, then you'd have to see the failure with your own eyes.  Not impossible, certainly.  Might be worth doing if we really want to eliminate the mask mechanism as a contributing factor.

And, it turns out that it's not that hard at all.  I did this, with 140k points per capture.  There was one failed waveform in just over 200 segments.  That one waveform does not show any evidence as to the trigger's stated conditions being met, despite the fact that the trigger fired.

Quote
I think a wrong one should be easy to spot then. Using a script the segments can be analysed automatically,  but that might be a bridge to far..

Wouldn't be that hard, actually.  But it raises a question: how do you save all of the segments?  I see no option in the save/restore menu to do that.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 07, 2020, 01:53:50 am
And, it turns out that it's not that hard at all.  I did this, with 140k points per capture.  There was one failed waveform in just over 200 segments.  That one waveform does not show any evidence as to the trigger's stated conditions being met, despite the fact that the trigger fired.
Yes because it rearmed. Use Single and it should capture it at any timebase setting.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 02:02:34 am
Quote from: bdunham7 on Today at 07:15:16 am (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=94245.msg3358052#msg3358052)>Quote from: kcbrown on Today at 07:01:10 am (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=94245.msg3358040#msg3358040)
The issue here is that the triggering mechanism is capturing waveforms when I wouldn't expect it to. 

Can you change the timebase to 1ms/div so that you get the full 1GS/s sample rate and then do the same test to see if it mistriggers?

OK, I did this, and here are the results.

The attached screenshots show the captured waveform in full.  One with the mask, and one without.

Also, I've attached the CSV of the data from -1.5ms to 0ms (I had to use 7zip to archive it because zip didn't compress it enough).  My analysis of it shows that the minimum voltage seen in that interval is seen at -27 ns, with a value of 4.33V.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 07, 2020, 02:08:08 am
Obviously there is some glitch firing the rising trigger as seen within the higher level in this screenshot.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1124686)

To examine this better the timebase needs zooming in so to see the spikes that are firing the trigger.

As posted before, use the blue Print button to grab screenshots and send them straight to a USB stick.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 07, 2020, 02:08:18 am
Wouldn't be that hard, actually.  But it raises a question: how do you save all of the segments?  I see no option in the save/restore menu to do that.
Using script the data of a segment can be retrieved when it is in view, to get all the script needs to place them in view one after another. Using the gui could be time consuming if it even can be done like that.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 02:32:04 am
Obviously there is some glitch firing the rising trigger as seen within the higher level in this screenshot.

Yeah, but it's not visible in the data!

The data shows that the *minimum* value captured for the trigger precondition is 4.33V, which is 0.7V *above* the 3.5V threshold that the trigger precondition should be passing through.


Quote
To examine this better the timebase needs zooming in so to see the spikes that are firing the trigger.

As posted before, use the blue Print button to grab screenshots and send them straight to a USB stick.

I'll have to remember that about the print button.

Zooming in is good for examining the waveform visually, but that's no substitute for using a program to examine the values captured by the scope.  The latter is what I've used and directly shows that the minimum value recorded within 1.5ms prior to the trigger firing is nowhere near small enough to have fired the trigger.

What I'm doing to detect that is pretty straightforward if you're familiar with Unix/Linux and its utilities:

Code: [Select]
kevin@ubuntu:/tmp$ cat FAIL1GS.csv | awk -F, 'BEGIN {min = 100.0; mintime = 0;} { if ($1 >= -1.5E-03 && $1 <= 0 && $2 < min) { min = $2; mintime = $1; } } END {print mintime, min}'
-2.700000E-08 +4.330000E+00

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 07, 2020, 02:37:35 am
kc, I'll do a little exercise with your triangular waveform later in the evening when I've got some real time as the rising Slope trigger is giving unexpected results and we need get to the bottom of this.  :-//
Will have something for you to examine come your morning.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 02:49:58 am
And, it turns out that it's not that hard at all.  I did this, with 140k points per capture.  There was one failed waveform in just over 200 segments.  That one waveform does not show any evidence as to the trigger's stated conditions being met, despite the fact that the trigger fired.
Yes because it rearmed.

I'm not sure I follow.  It rearmed after it fired.  Firing causes the capture.  Because the capture contains the point in time that the trigger fired, and because the time span of the display (which defines the time span of the capture) is enough to capture the preconditions of the trigger, it follows that the captured waveform would, in a perfect world, contain the data for both the trigger precondition (rising past 3.5V somewhere between 1.2 and 1.4ms before the trigger fires, which means a voltage value below 3.5V *must* be present somewhere prior to, and relatively close to, the precondition point seen by the triggering mechanism) and the trigger activation itself (rising past 4.5V at the point when the trigger fires).

A segment is a full capture, and what I was referring to is where one of the segments shows an improper capture.

Quote
Use Single and it should capture it at any timebase setting.
I did this, with a 14 megasample capture buffer, captured with peak detect, and finally managed to stop myself from pressing the "single" button after seeing a problem capture.   :D

I've attached a screenshot of the end result, as well as a 7-zip archive with the CSV of the data from -1.5ms to 0ms.

And the analysis of the data shows the same absence of a valid initial condition, with 4.33V being the minimum voltage seen between -1.5ms and the trigger (zero) time:

Code: [Select]
kevin@ubuntu:/tmp$ cat FAIL1GS-SINGLE.csv | awk -F, 'BEGIN {min = 100.0; mintime = 0;} { if ($1 >= -1.5E-03 && $1 <= 0 && $2 < min) { min = $2; mintime = $1; } } END {print mintime, min}'
-1.062040E-04 +4.330000E+00
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on December 07, 2020, 02:53:53 am
Yeah, but it's not visible in the data!

The data shows that the *minimum* value captured for the trigger precondition is 4.33V, which is 0.7V *above* the 3.5V threshold that the trigger precondition should be passing through.

Can you use the scopes GUI to zoom in on that glitchy area 1.4-1.5ms before the trigger (the entire area that is eligible for triggering purposes in your setup) and look at the trace, not the data?  This might seem wierd, but since the trigger (AFAIK) doesn't use the data, but rather the sinx/x function of it, under certain noise or glitch conditions the calculated trace and trigger level could be well outside the actual data.  That seems farfetched, but I'm grasping at straws here--there doesn't seem to be a good explanation for this behavior.  And noise reject fixes it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 03:02:36 am
kc, I'll do a little exercise with your triangular waveform later in the evening when I've got some real time as the rising Slope trigger is giving unexpected results and we need get to the bottom of this.  :-//
Will have something for you to examine come your morning.

Awesome, thanks!   Should be interesting.

I've no idea how much noise there has to be on the signal to reproduce this.  The source of my signal is the output of a Schmidt trigger run through an RC circuit and a diode.  There's some noise making it into the circuit, obviously.

Seeing how this issue can be seen via direct single triggering without the mask enabled, I think it's clear that the issue is independent of the use of the mask, thankfully.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 03:19:23 am
Yeah, but it's not visible in the data!

The data shows that the *minimum* value captured for the trigger precondition is 4.33V, which is 0.7V *above* the 3.5V threshold that the trigger precondition should be passing through.

Can you use the scopes GUI to zoom in on that glitchy area 1.4-1.5ms before the trigger (the entire area that is eligible for triggering purposes in your setup) and look at the trace, not the data?  This might seem wierd, but since the trigger (AFAIK) doesn't use the data, but rather the sinx/x function of it, under certain noise or glitch conditions the calculated trace and trigger level could be well outside the actual data.  That seems farfetched, but I'm grasping at straws here--there doesn't seem to be a good explanation for this behavior.  And noise reject fixes it.

I did that, and every time I've done that I found nothing.

Even with sin(x)/x interpolation, there should be something in the data that would cause the interpolated waveform to dip below 3.5V here (remember that 3.5V is more than 1V less than the typical voltage seen at around -1.5 ms).  It means there should be *something* at or near that voltage level in the data.  And there just isn't.

Either the trigger mechanism is consistently detecting a voltage swing that is present in the signal but isn't being captured by the sampler, or the trigger mechanism is malfunctioning.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 07, 2020, 03:32:05 am
Obviously there is some glitch firing the rising trigger as seen within the higher level in this screenshot.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1124686)

To examine this better the timebase needs zooming in so to see the spikes that are firing the trigger.



Hint: It need now note that he use SLOPE trigger!   ;)





Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on December 07, 2020, 03:45:14 am
Even with sin(x)/x interpolation, there should be something in the data that would cause the interpolated waveform to dip below 3.5V here (remember that 3.5V is more than 1V less than the typical voltage seen at around -1.5 ms).  It means there should be *something* at or near that voltage level in the data.  And there just isn't.

Either the trigger mechanism is consistently detecting a voltage swing that is present in the signal but isn't being captured by the sampler, or the trigger mechanism is malfunctioning.

The sinc function can give surprising results sometimes, especially if the bandwidth is not correctly accounted for.  Is your scope hacked to 200MHz?  It does seem that the trigger is seeing or calculating something not in the trace.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on December 07, 2020, 03:47:10 am
Hint: It need now note that he use SLOPE trigger!   ;)

Not sure I understand.  He is set up to trigger on a rising slope, and occasionally it triggers on a falling slope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 03:57:15 am
The sinc function can give surprising results sometimes, especially if the bandwidth is not correctly accounted for.  Is your scope hacked to 200MHz?  It does seem that the trigger is seeing or calculating something not in the trace.

Nope, this one is a bona-fide SDS-1204X-E.  A rare beast, to be sure.   :D

It's entirely possible that there's something in the signal that the trigger is latching onto that is somehow not making it to the capture.  I can understand that happening occasionally.  But this is happening often enough that it makes me suspicious that there's something else going on, possibly something subtle about how the slope trigger mechanism works that I'm not accounting for.

It's why I asked the question the way I did: how exactly does the mechanism work, if it differs from my understanding of how it *should* work?  Because as I have it configured, based on how it *should* work, it should see a rising edge passing through 3.5V at some point between -1.4ms and -1.2ms.  And none of the captures show anything of the sort.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on December 07, 2020, 04:08:50 am
It's entirely possible that there's something in the signal that the trigger is latching onto that is somehow not making it to the capture.  I can understand that happening occasionally.  But this is happening often enough that it makes me suspicious that there's something else going on, possibly something subtle about how the slope trigger mechanism works that I'm not accounting for.

Do you have an AWG so that you can replicate this signal by DDS?  As far as how it happens, I would think that it has to be a combination of something your circuit is doing and a susceptibility in the trigger design.  But if it does the same thing with a signal from a different source at the same point in the waveform, then the problem is just the trigger design.  Is there anything happening in the input circuit at the point in the waveform that the occasional mistrigger occurs?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 04:28:35 am
It's entirely possible that there's something in the signal that the trigger is latching onto that is somehow not making it to the capture.  I can understand that happening occasionally.  But this is happening often enough that it makes me suspicious that there's something else going on, possibly something subtle about how the slope trigger mechanism works that I'm not accounting for.

Do you have an AWG so that you can replicate this signal by DDS? 

I have an AWG (an SDG-1025).  I'll have to give some thought as to how best to use it for this.  It might be enough to save the seen waveform data with a slow enough sample rate that my AWG can use it (it only does 125 megasamples/sec, so the scope would need to be sampling at the same rate for the data it saves to be directly usable).

Or it may be that I can create a similar waveform directly using the available waveforms and modifiers in the generator.



Quote
As far as how it happens, I would think that it has to be a combination of something your circuit is doing and a susceptibility in the trigger design.  But if it does the same thing with a signal from a different source at the same point in the waveform, then the problem is just the trigger design.  Is there anything happening in the input circuit at the point in the waveform that the occasional mistrigger occurs?

Well, the point of the triggering mechanism is that it should trigger only when all of the conditions you define are actually present.  Therein lies the crux of the matter -- I've seen no evidence that all of the conditions really *are* present.  Its possible that there's something on the input side of the circuit that is ultimately resulting in the kind of noise spike that would have to be present for the triggering mechanism to fire the way it is, but I haven't gone looking for that.  But now that you mention it, I should probably be sampling that on a different channel so I can see if there's anything unusual there.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 07, 2020, 04:49:03 am
@kcbrown

Can you carefully explain every single setting in your scope related to this capturing and every single thing about trigger setting, also do you use  defaulted fast acquisition mode or slow mode. Then of course need know if it is in normal or auto trig mode. And so on but very importantly this slope trigger all parameters and possible filter and possible trig hysteresis level narrow or wide (noise reject)

Then question. Do you need 1GSa/s for this test setup. (just for possible some later step if need later, what is minimum)
There is no way to save whole history at once to USB etc. It is in wish list but it is just wish to Siglent.

In your original msg there was


Quote
Type: slope
Slope: rising
Voltage boundaries: 3.5V to 4.5V
Limit range type: [-- . --]
Limit range values: 1.2ms to 1.4ms
Noise reject: off

There can now speculate some things but perhaps investigation is better than speculations and messed thinking this and that.

For only test purpose and if you can affect this signal under test or generate same kind of signal using just generator.
But if not, if this signal is from device under test then we need live with it as it is.(**)

My recommendation is for next step.
! Set acquisition mode slow (I believe now it is fast)
! Set trigger mode Normal  (I do not know what you have used)
! Set Analog 20MHz BW rejection ON
! Do NOT use Mask test as long as this trigger fail reason is solved  (when you show images we have better resolution, mask color this failed part more fat se we loose visual resolution!
! display mode use Vector and type Linear.

When you show  failed trig image scope stopped take screen. Then move up for see to and move down for see bottom. Whole full scale (ADC FS) is vertically bit over 10 div on TFT. So we have then 3 images. Do not zoom in out in vertical or time before take these screen shots and so that settings are visible. *Use [Print] button for save screen*

Try rise signal level to 6 or 7 div peak to peak.(**)
And of course level thresholds related to this V change . (**)
! Make this slope time window bit more wide. Example 1ms to 1.6ms

Also it can see this signal have roughly 4V DC offset. Is it possible this signal DC offset have some fluctuating or drift.

I do not have this scope now available for perfect demonstrate and try repeat this and also not remember more deep detais and limits with settings what are not explained in UserManual. There is no The Reference Manual available at all.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1124744;image)

As can see in image your limits are bit borderline if think noise, offset etc so it is possible it loose some slope.
Looks like signal meet slope limits but not trigged at all. How many there have been untrigged slopes before this acquisition we can not know exactly sure. Lets hope it is not Auto trig what can not close out when see only these some result images until know Autotrig is OFF, or then also some very strange interfere with... but lets not go this speculating now.
This is one reason why I ask you turn acquisition mode to {Slow} it can find in menu. Rarely used. Too rarely.

Later if continue testing next step depends if you can slow samplerate lot of... but it is after this if still not found reason.

And next time you take screen shot. Please use front panel [Print] button so that important settings can see (you can look before screen shot what menu is visible) and of course image file type always  .png.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 07, 2020, 05:26:19 am

Well, the point of the triggering mechanism is that it should trigger only when all of the conditions you define are actually present.  Therein lies the crux of the matter -- I've seen no evidence that all of the conditions really *are* present.  Its possible that there's something on the input side of the circuit that is ultimately resulting in the kind of noise spike that would have to be present for the triggering mechanism to fire the way it is, but I haven't gone looking for that.  But now that you mention it, I should probably be sampling that on a different channel so I can see if there's anything unusual there.

First, this scope whole trigger system is all after ADC. Trigger engine do not see ANY single thing but just 8 bit data bytes coming from ADC.  If in this data stream is not spike or what ever, these can not also affect triggering. Absolutely and infinitely.  I know it deeply enough for this claim.
Also every single byte from ADC, what have moved to acquisition memory  after possible decimation, is also display mapped. Display resolution matter but all are there also. One place where they can hiding is outside of screen bottom and top. But if there is even single byte from ADC thehn there is also least dot. So some times when mystery happen... it is good practice to look also these areas when scope is stop and mystery on the screen. Just then move up and down with full intesity and look if there is dot. Norfmallu scope is in some interpolation selected then looking is more easy... if there is line between  other data point to some even single rare sample this line can see.  Siglent is "bullet proof" in this. It do not decimate when samples density is much more than pixel density. Example 14Mpts for display. All are there and even in case there is multiple traces overlaid in screen in best case 20000 samples "behind" single display vertical pixel column if one of these  ADC bytes in this column  is outside of this pixel then this is visible where its level is (in this vertical pixel column).
So if some mystery trig, it caan find just from screen if look whole vertical range using in stop mode vertical posoition move or vertical zoom out.
Of course also if want more deeply. This last stopped trace whola data can save to USB but 14M data to .CSV is ...  what software can even open it. I remember all my tools crash when try. It is Big.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on December 07, 2020, 05:34:55 am
First, this scope whole trigger system is all after ADC. Trigger engine do not see ANY single thing but just 8 bit data bytes coming from ADC.  If in this data stream is not spike or what ever, these can not also affect triggering. Absolutely and infinitely.  I know it deeply enough for this claim.

Thanks for that, I believed that to be the case.  But am I also correct that the trigger engine does math on the data, sinx/x interpolation or ???

Quote
Also every single byte from ADC, what have moved to acquisition memory  after possible decimation, is also display mapped.....  Siglent is "bullet proof" in this. It do not decimate when samples density is much more than pixel density.

And thank you again.  To paraphrase, dots are samples, provided that the display isn't too crowded.  But would a one-sample spike be visibly displayed on a screen with 14Mpts, even in Normal mode and not Peak?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 07, 2020, 06:02:47 am


And thank you again.  To paraphrase, dots are samples, provided that the display isn't too crowded.  But would a one-sample spike be visibly displayed on a screen with 14Mpts, even in Normal mode and not Peak?



Only in case ADC data is not decimated.
All next are more or less simplified... and corners rounded...
When there read scope use full native ADC sampling speed it do not decimate.
But if it show (exaple one channel in use) samlerate is 10MSa/s and current memory length in use is 14Mpts.
Of course then ADC data is decimated, from 100 raw samples it take only one to acquisition memory and rest it throw away. But in this case peaks can affect and they are not visible because Primary Trig engine is before this decimation!!! 
In Peak mode it find highest peak from these 100 raw sample and this sample level is moved to acquisition memory. And now high note! Highest can be what ever sample in this 100 sample group. So Peak mode loose this peak perfect time. We can tell it is only inside this time what contain this oone group of samples.

Simplified.
If scope is using full ADC real samplerate (ADC is always working this speed of course depending if it is in interleaved mode or not)  In interleaved mode it is 1GSa/s and non interleaved mode (2 channel in use for this ADC) then its speed is 500MSa/s.
With these speeds and modes it use Peak mode do nothing.
If ADC is working one channel, it is interleaved mode and full speed is 1GSa and if in this case time scale is selected so or memory length that it start decimate data (after trigger engine, before acq memory), even just 2/1 then peak mode select highest from these two samples.


Very very rough principle for rough imagination...
Example for understanding where trigger coupling etc are positioned in system.  Of course  Trig AC coupling andother  trig filters ara all DSP filters.
Then note, models what have external trigger. This ExtTrig channel is very different analog side pathway system with conventional analog comparator and there trig jitter, accuracy and other performance is far away from digital trig.

(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E/Digital-trigger-SDS1000X-E-U-series.jpg)


And note, of course trigger engine see sample interval coming samples and its resolution is this but of course this is not at all enough.
There need interpolate between these 2 or 1 ns interval sample points for final positioning. I do not know exactly but example some imagine may give roughly if look how channel skew adjustment resolution is.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on December 07, 2020, 06:09:14 am
Of course then ADC data is decimated, from 100 raw samples it take only one to acquisition memory and rest it throw away. But in this case peaks can affect and they are not visible because Primary Trig engine is before this decimation!!!
And note, of course trigger engine see sample interval and its resolution is this but of course this is not at all enough.
There need interpolate between these 2 or 1 ns  sample points for final positioning.

That's why I asked the OP to increase his sample rate to the full 1GS/s.

How does the trigger do that final interpolation and positioning?  Not that it likely matters in this particular case.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 06:40:09 am

Well, the point of the triggering mechanism is that it should trigger only when all of the conditions you define are actually present.  Therein lies the crux of the matter -- I've seen no evidence that all of the conditions really *are* present.  Its possible that there's something on the input side of the circuit that is ultimately resulting in the kind of noise spike that would have to be present for the triggering mechanism to fire the way it is, but I haven't gone looking for that.  But now that you mention it, I should probably be sampling that on a different channel so I can see if there's anything unusual there.

First, this scope whole trigger system is all after ADC. Trigger engine do not see ANY single thing but just 8 bit data bytes coming from ADC.  If in this data stream is not spike or what ever, these can not also affect triggering. Absolutely and infinitely.  I know it deeply enough for this claim.

Then please examine the CSVs I uploaded (you'll need 7-zip to open the archives.  7-zip can be retrieved from https://www.7-zip.org (https://www.7-zip.org)), most especially the one named "FAIL1GS-SINGLE-section" which can be downloaded from: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1124706, (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1124706,) and explain how the trigger could possibly have fired when it did given the parameters I used.  Note that the contents of the CSV in the archive I linked to are a subset of the entire capture, in particular the 1.5ms worth of capture data leading up to the trigger firing.  Since I defined that the first corner of the trigger should be between 1.2 and 1.4ms before the trigger point, with 3.5V as the crossing point for that corner, we clearly should expect to see a voltage less than 3.5V within 100us of that supposed crossing point.  But there's nothing anywhere close to that there, or anywhere else within the 1.5ms leading up to the point the trigger fired.

Note that the parameters of that capture were such that the scope was sampling at a full 1GS/s, and the trigger mode was "Normal" (not "Auto").  If the trigger system is using post-ADC data and the data in the capture is not the result of decimation (and it shouldn't be with 1GS/s sampling), then what we see in the capture should be *exactly* what the trigger system sees, no?   And yet, I can find no explanation for why the trigger fired on the basis of the data in the capture.

I examined the waveform while the scope was stopped both with interpolation enabled and with it disabled.  It made no difference.  But most telling is that the *smallest* voltage seen anywhere within 1.5ms prior to the trigger point is 4.33V, which is *well* above the 3.5V threshold I defined for the starting corner of the slope window.

This is why I'm skeptical that the triggering mechanism is behaving properly.   If there's noise that is causing the trigger to fire, it is not present in the capture.  Either I don't understand how the slope trigger mechanism is supposed to behave, or it has a bug.  I see no other options on the table given the data.

By the way, I see the same behavior even with "slow" capture mode.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 07, 2020, 06:59:41 am
kc, I'll do a little exercise with your triangular waveform later in the evening when I've got some real time as the rising Slope trigger is giving unexpected results and we need get to the bottom of this.  :-//
Will have something for you to examine come your morning.

Awesome, thanks!   Should be interesting.
It was and user error was confirmed.
Slope triggering works as expected if you RTFM !
Expressly this:
The slope trigger looks for a rising or falling transition from one level to another level in greater than or less than a certain amount of time.
P71
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/11/SDS1000X-ESDS1000X-U_UserManual_UM0101E-E05A.pdf (https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/11/SDS1000X-ESDS1000X-U_UserManual_UM0101E-E05A.pdf)

However there is a little trap for the inattentive in that once Levels have been set and then Limit Range (time between levels) the trigger Levels cannot be adjusted without starting from scratch again.
So how to pick a valid Limit Range.....with Cursors or just eyeballing the graticules of course and then all works as expected while the limit range time is met between the Levels.

So a couple of screenshots using the Print button so menus remain visible.  ;)
SDS1104X-E SN#0012 so a very early unit. Fresh Default setup and then Ch4 selected as is my preference.
SDG1032X Triangle with offset and symmetry adjusted to approximate kcbrown's waveform.
BNC cable connection.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1124770)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1124774)

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 07:58:01 am
kc, I'll do a little exercise with your triangular waveform later in the evening when I've got some real time as the rising Slope trigger is giving unexpected results and we need get to the bottom of this.  :-//
Will have something for you to examine come your morning.

Awesome, thanks!   Should be interesting.
It was and user error was confirmed.
Slope triggering works as expected if you RTFM !
Expressly this:
The slope trigger looks for a rising or falling transition from one level to another level in greater than or less than a certain amount of time.
P71
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/11/SDS1000X-ESDS1000X-U_UserManual_UM0101E-E05A.pdf (https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/11/SDS1000X-ESDS1000X-U_UserManual_UM0101E-E05A.pdf)

I think the above deserves some additional explanation.  The implication of the manual here is that there is absolutely no difference between "rising" and "falling" slope settings.  The way I interpreted the slope trigger mode, when used with the [= . =] voltage range definition, is this:


In this way, with the voltage range boundaries defined in that manner, the triggering mechanism would be guaranteed to not fire in "rising" mode unless both of the following are true:


The end result is that, if it works as described above, you should always see an edge pass through the lower voltage within the defined range of time before the trigger fired, and you should always see an edge pass through the upper voltage at time zero.  And frankly, it seems most logical for the transitions to be rising edge only when "rising" is the slope type, and falling edge only when "falling" is the slope type.

Using the numbers I defined for my trigger settings, this means I would expect to see an edge pass through 3.5V at somewhere between -1.4ms and -1.2ms, i.e. 1.2ms to 1.4ms before the trigger fired, and another edge pass through 4.5V at time zero, i.e. when the trigger fires.

But I've seen nothing to indicate any transition at all through 3.5V between 1.2ms and 1.4ms before the trigger fired.   This is what I don't understand, and is why I think the trigger mechanism might have a bug.

Put another way, I fail to see how my understanding of the trigger mechanism is incorrect unless the trigger mechanism is defined in such a way as to make "rising" versus "falling" worthless as a distinguishing attribute of the slope trigger type.


Quote
However there is a little trap for the inattentive in that once Levels have been set and then Limit Range (time between levels) the trigger Levels cannot be adjusted without starting from scratch again.

I noticed that, but didn't make that error for the test runs I performed for this discussion.

Quote
So how to pick a valid Limit Range.....with Cursors or just eyeballing the graticules of course and then all works as expected while the limit range time is met between the Levels.

That's exactly what I did.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 07, 2020, 08:12:14 am

OK, I did this, and here are the results.

The attached screenshots show the captured waveform in full.  One with the mask, and one without.

Also, I've attached the CSV of the data from -1.5ms to 0ms (I had to use 7zip to archive it because zip didn't compress it enough).  My analysis of it shows that the minimum voltage seen in that interval is seen at -27 ns, with a value of 4.33V.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1124686;image)

Is it perfectly just this screen shot what is  also this .CSV.

There can not see exactly what was all important settings just when this happen.

Least I can say this is not trigged from this signal data if your previously told trigger slope etc settings are used and last 1.5ms data before trig time position is what is in CSV.

But for further analyze you need tell exactly what setup was for this screen shot with this CSV.  Sad there is not CSV from this part where can assume trigger need happen in just this "sweep".

Btw, are you hunting some nanosecond things from this signal or why you use full BW.

Sidenote. Normal default trigger hysteresis, what is fully hidden from user, is roughly 0.3 div.  When user select [noise reject on] no where is displayed  inform to user what it do and many may think it is some kind of freq filter. Its (main) function is make this hysteresis "window" more wide. With noise reject on it is roughly 0.8div. And it need also note this hysteresis position depends direction. If we are going up this hysteresis is before aka under threshold level and if we are going down hysteresis is before aka over thresold level and this is also in slope trigger and for both thresholds. So if user example turn noise reject on and he loose trigger it  need also check if this invisible Mr.Hysteresis have arrived to room making his magic...
It is good to know but not reason in this case. 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 07, 2020, 09:07:37 am
More Slope trigger tests....some not triggering due to settings used.
Screenshots should speak for themselves.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 09:15:59 am
Is it perfectly just this screen shot what is  also this .CSV.

There can not see exactly what was all important settings just when this happen.

The trigger settings for the CSV and the screenshot are the same as for all of the others:

Trigger mode: slope
Slope mode: rising
Limit range type: [-- . --]  (i.e., the first transition must happen between two time points prior to the trigger point)
Limit range values: 1.20ms to 1.40ms (which I interpret as meaning that the first transition must happen between 1.40ms and 1.20ms before the second transition point happens)
Lower voltage bound: 3.50V
Upper voltage bound: 4.50V
Coupling: DC
Noise rejection: off

The mode and lower and upper voltage bounds are also visible in the screenshot.

The CSV I supplied is a subset of the entire capture seen in the screenshot.  While the capture goes from -7ms to +7ms (0ms is of course the point where the trigger fired), the CSV I supplied only goes from -1.5ms to 0ms.  I would have uploaded the CSV of the entire capture if this forum allowed uploads that large, but even with 7-zip, the resulting archive is 9 megabytes in size, far too large for uploads here.


Quote
Least I can say this is not trigged from this signal data if your previously told trigger slope etc settings are used and last 1.5ms data before trig time position is what is in CSV.

This signal that you see in the screenshot *did* cause the trigger as I defined it above to fire.  That's the point.  I see no reason it should have, but it did anyway.


Quote
But for further analyze you need tell exactly what setup was for this screen shot with this CSV.  Sad there is not CSV from this part where can assume trigger need happen in just this "sweep".

The CSV starts at 1.5ms before the trigger fired and ends at the point the trigger fired.  Given the "rising slope" mode and the settings I used, I expected to see a transition through 3.5V at somewhere between 1.2ms and 1.4ms before the trigger fired.  Since the CSV covers from 1.5ms before the trigger fired to the point where the trigger fired, it easily covers the period of time during which I would have expected to see a transition through 3.5V.


Quote
Btw, are you hunting some nanosecond things from this signal or why you use full BW.

I used full bandwidth only for the purpose of testing the triggering mechanism.  As it's defined, and given the data captured, I see no evidence that the bandwidth itself is the problem, particularly since the capture was running at the full 1GS/s rate (which easily satisfies Nyquist for 200MHz bandwidth), and especially since you said that the trigger mechanism is using the same data out of the ADC that the capture mechanism is using (meaning: if the trigger fired due to a transition, that transition should be present in the capture).


Quote
Sidenote. Normal default trigger hysteresis, what is fully hidden from user, is roughly 0.3 div. 

Well, keep in mind that the lowest voltage seen in the time range of -1.5ms to 0ms before the trigger fired is 4.33V.  The capture was taken at 500mV/div.   It doesn't sound like 0.3 div of hysteresis is enough to account for that amount of needed voltage swing.


Quote
When user select [noise reject on] no where is displayed  inform to user what it do and many may think it is some kind of freq filter. Its (main) function is make this hysteresis "window" more wide. With noise reject on it is roughly 0.8div. And it need also note this hysteresis position depends direction. If we are going up this hysteresis is before aka under threshold level and if we are going down hysteresis is before aka over thresold level and this is also in slope trigger and for both thresholds. So if user example turn noise reject on and he loose trigger it  need also check if this invisible Mr.Hysteresis have arrived to room making his magic...
It is good to know but not reason in this case.

That is definitely good to know, and something I'll try to keep in mind.

Thanks very much for all the incredibly helpful info, by the way.   It's a gold mine here ...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 09:18:30 am
More Slope trigger tests....some not triggering due to settings used.
Screenshots should speak for themselves.

In each test you're performing, you're using a "<=" type of time definition, meaning the first transition point can occur any time between the defined time and zero before the second transition point.

What happens when you define a time range, i.e. the "[-- . --]" type of time definition?  That's what I'm using, and for good reason: I didn't want there to be any possibility of triggering on the falling edge, and I also wanted to ensure that the trigger didn't fire in the event the rising edge was much more steep than what I'm expecting.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 07, 2020, 09:26:37 am
More Slope trigger tests....some not triggering due to settings used.
Screenshots should speak for themselves.

In each test you're performing, you're using a "<=" type of time definition, meaning the first transition point can occur any time between the defined time and zero before the second transition point.
No look at them again, <=, >= and both rising and falling for each.
Haven't tried [-- . --] yet..........and maybe not tonight as it's getting late and needing beauty sleep !  :bullshit:

In the next 24hrs I promise.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 09:34:32 am
More Slope trigger tests....some not triggering due to settings used.
Screenshots should speak for themselves.

In each test you're performing, you're using a "<=" type of time definition, meaning the first transition point can occur any time between the defined time and zero before the second transition point.
No look at them again, <=, >= and both rising and falling for each.

Oh, yep, sure enough.  Awesome.


Quote
Haven't tried [-- . --] yet..........and maybe not tonight as it's getting late and needing beauty sleep !  :bullshit:

In the next 24hrs I promise.  ;)

LOL!  No worries.  Same here, actually.  It's 3:30am for me right now!  That's okay, because that's my normal schedule (I'm weird that way), but it means I'll have to pick this back up tomorrow.

If there's something in particular you'd like me to try on my end, please let me know.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 07, 2020, 10:17:11 am


Least I can say this is not trigged from this signal data if your previously told trigger slope etc settings are used and last 1.5ms data before trig time position is what is in CSV.

This signal that you see in the screenshot *did* cause the trigger as I defined it above to fire.  That's the point.  I see no reason it should have, but it did anyway.

No.

Perhaps some language barrier.

What I mean.
There in .CSV can not find anything what can explain this trig in this place. Btw how you know it is trigged. have you seen trig out signal just for this. So we do not even know if it is trigged or captured without true trig due to example some rare well hidden bug what now pop up in just with all your settings.

Have you tried same with analog side BW reject.
Have you tried it with more wide slope steep. Example 1ms / 2ms. Do it change situation.
Have you tried using Trigger noise reject ON. (more wide hysteresis).
Have you tried using 1x probe (now with 10x probe your real input is 50mV/div) .... oh but you have 4V DC offset...

When it do wrong looks like trig, do it happen always in same time position related to signal, same place in this slow falling edge?

So this signal data, so what can see in this CSV,  can not be source for this trig if settings are all as told and if this works as I think it is designed and done.

Also this language barrier make me wonderin this your explabnation about slope trig timing.

Long time ago after when SDS1004X-E was launched I have written quite detailed introduction to these trigger functions, but unfortunately they are all in Finnish language and google can not translate it or result is just total garbage.

When slope rise, first it meet bottom threshold hysteresis bottom threshold  level... it may cross over this level many times... but this bottom need be crossed rising direction and after this last rising cross over first time it rise cross over hysteresis upper level what is also same as this trigger type bottom threshold level... after then it start count time.  Signal is rising  and time go next it cross over upper trig threshold bottom hysteresis threshold and it may cros over it multiple times...up direction down direction until it do not drop and it continue rising... soon it first time cross over upper threshold hysteresis top level what is also  same as upper trigger threshold. If time is over minimum but under maximum it generate trigger.  Of course this timing can also explain opposite way. Result is same.

(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E-4ch/SDS1000X-E--Slope-Trig-example-1.png)
Old image from my trigger guidance material


about hysteresis, of course there need also some explanation what happen in these images bit here these are only for rise knowledge about hysteresis.
(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E/SDS1202X-E_TrigHystWide.png)
In this case riding signal do not produce trig position jumping... all overlaid single acquisitions hav eperfectly trigged.

(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E/SDS1202X-E_TrigHystNarrow.png)
Riding sawtooth produce different triggers because narrow normal hysteresis because its level p-p is higher that hysteresis window.  This is of course made for demonstrate this effect. Mostly situation in nature is lot of more complex due do random peaks, noise or ripple etc etc..

And without  right crossing hysteresis do not happen ok trig. This hysteresis is is included in both thresholds when trigger mode have two level thresholds.

Also in attached image hysteresis are marked. In this case no need more think hysteresis imho but just for better knowledge who do not know this.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1124846;imge)

This trig have failed/error due to reason what is unknown at this time.
Still I tiny bit wonder this fat part of trace just before wanted trigger position also its timing is fun...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ballen on December 07, 2020, 03:36:37 pm
It is explained bit more but unfortunately "scrambled by natural enigma". Our "enigma" is our Finnish language what is said is second difficult after Chinese in world. 
In some images there is some english/finglish explanations. But more deep text explanations just with Finnish.
https://siglent.fi/oskilloskooppi-tietoa-sds1004x-e--wfm-speed.html

I am slowly reading through this with help from Google translate.  It's very helpful, thank you for writing it!

PS: there is a typo in the second (all yellow) table shown in Figure 1, in the line with t/div= 1ms.  Column 6 contains 1G sa/s. It should read 1M sa/s.

 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 07, 2020, 09:47:49 pm


Least I can say this is not trigged from this signal data if your previously told trigger slope etc settings are used and last 1.5ms data before trig time position is what is in CSV.

This signal that you see in the screenshot *did* cause the trigger as I defined it above to fire.  That's the point.  I see no reason it should have, but it did anyway.

No.

Perhaps some language barrier.

What I mean.
There in .CSV can not find anything what can explain this trig in this place. Btw how you know it is trigged. have you seen trig out signal just for this. So we do not even know if it is trigged or captured without true trig due to example some rare well hidden bug what now pop up in just with all your settings.

Ah.  Yes, I agree, there's nothing in the data that explains why the trigger fired.  Rest assured, what was captured *is* the result of the trigger firing.  How do I know?


I've posted at least 3 different instances of the issue, along with CSV data to back it up.  One of them was in response to Tautech when he suggested I use "single" mode to reproduce the issue.  I did, and the end result is the same: the CSV data doesn't show anything to explain why the trigger fired, but the screenshot shows clearly that it did.

At this point, I don't know what other evidence I can supply, but the conclusion from the data is clear: the slope trigger mechanism, at least when using a bracketed time range, is buggy, and will fire when it shouldn't, unless the trigger mechanism is keying off data that is *consistently* failing to land in the capture.

Quote
Have you tried same with analog side BW reject.

Limiting the bandwidth helps.  I'm running a test now to see if the issue reproduces at all with a 20 MHz bandwidth limit on the input.  But limiting the bandwidth shouldn't be necessary.  What if you're trying to find high-frequency noise in the signal?   The point here is that if noise causes the trigger to fire and the trigger mechanism exclusively uses ADC output, that noise should be present in the capture!   But it wasn't, and isn't.


Quote
Have you tried it with more wide slope steep. Example 1ms / 2ms. Do it change situation.

Good question.  I don't know.  I'll have to test that as well.   But that said, it's unclear what to expect to gain from it.  200us is plenty of time when the sample rate is 1GS/s.  It's not like that time window approaches the limitations of the speed of the scope or anything.

Quote
Have you tried using Trigger noise reject ON. (more wide hysteresis).

Yes.  It does increase the amount of time to reproduction, but I have seen the issue reproduce even with that in place.


Quote
Have you tried using 1x probe (now with 10x probe your real input is 50mV/div) .... oh but you have 4V DC offset...

I've not tried that.

Quote
When it do wrong looks like trig, do it happen always in same time position related to signal, same place in this slow falling edge?

Looks that way.


Quote
So this signal data, so what can see in this CSV,  can not be source for this trig if settings are all as told and if this works as I think it is designed and done.

Agreed.

Quote
Also this language barrier make me wonderin this your explabnation about slope trig timing.

Well, let me try explaining how I think it works a different way.

When you're using the time range option for the slope trigger, what you're really doing is defining a bounding box with a section of the bottom (when using "rising" mode) side of the box that the waveform must pass through and a corner that it must also pass through for the trigger to fire.  Like this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1125272;image)

The above shows the trigger configuration I used: a rising slope trigger with a time range of 1.2ms to 1.4ms, a lower voltage of 3.5V, and an upper voltage of 4.5V.  The squiggly waveform I've drawn shows a waveform segment that would correctly cause the trigger to fire.

In this case, there are two gates through which the waveform must pass in order for the trigger to fire.  The first gate is at T = -1.4ms to -1.2ms (meaning, 1.4ms to 1.2ms before the trigger fires), i.e. anywhere within that range is fine, and the threshold voltage through which the waveform must pass is 3.5V.  The second gate is the 4.5V threshold.  It must occur between 1.2ms and 1.4ms after the first threshold was passed.  If that timing requirement is met at the point the waveform passes through 4.5V, the trigger fires.

Now, it would make the most sense for a rising slope trigger to insist on a rising edge when it passes through the threshold voltages, and I happen to think that such is strictly necessary, because otherwise the trigger could fire on a rising slope that is much greater than that which the trigger conditions specify.  What *is* necessary, regardless, is that the waveform pass through the voltages in question while meeting the time requirements for each transition.

Of course, there's an additional requirement: the waveform must never pass below the 3.5V threshold at any time between T = -1.2ms and T = 0.  If it does, then that would invalidate the trigger conditions.  Another way of stating it is that the *last* time the waveform passes through the 3.5V threshold must be between 1.4ms and 1.2ms prior to the time when it passes through 4.5V.


Maybe the above makes what I've got in mind more clear.  If not, I'll do my best to clarify further.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 08, 2020, 02:50:41 am
Have you tried same with analog side BW reject.

So far this issue has *not* reproduced with the 20MHz bandwidth limiter enabled on the probe.  Looks to me like whatever's causing this, it's very high frequency noise that somehow doesn't appear in the capture.

I'll try some of the other things next.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 08, 2020, 03:56:42 am
Have you tried it with more wide slope steep. Example 1ms / 2ms. Do it change situation.
I altered the time range to be 0.5ms to 1.5ms, and kept the voltage thresholds the same.  It made no difference -- the problem reproduced easily.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 08, 2020, 04:01:37 am
The issue also reproduces with acquisition in "slow" mode, i.e. fast or slow makes no difference here.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 08, 2020, 04:05:44 am
Have you tried same with analog side BW reject.

So far this issue has *not* reproduced with the 20MHz bandwidth limiter enabled on the probe.  Looks to me like whatever's causing this, it's very high frequency noise that somehow doesn't appear in the capture.

I'll try some of the other things next.

This is very strange if it do not appear in capture or captured raw ADC data. It must be there, infinitely. Without it, it do not trig. But all is possible. Also some bug in FW what cause this reason is hiding. 
Do you have FULL  .CSV or Binary data. Screen shot png and paired with this full saved sample data. Example 3 set of these pairs so that these pairs are somehow marked so that can not mix and with perfectly explained trigger setting and scope other settings (norm/Auto, possible trigger coupling filters and, trigger setup exactly and so on. (display dots/interpolatin line or sinc do not affect any thing, they are post processed.)
Because if there is really no raw ADC data what explain wrong/failed trig, it need solve what make it. These can bit look and forward to Siglent for further analysis. It is not lottery machine and it do not have its own mind what some times do irrationally something like human..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 08, 2020, 04:18:43 am
This is very strange if it do not appear in capture or captured raw ADC data. It must be there, infinitely. Without it, it do not trig. But all is possible. Also some bug in FW what cause this reason is hiding. 
Do you have FULL  .CSV or Binary data.

Yes.  Well, I *had* it but had to reboot my computer, and didn't have them stored in a location that would survive the reboot.  But seeing how I can reproduce this essentially at will, getting the data isn't a problem at all.


Quote
Screen shot png and paired with this full saved sample data. Example 3 set of these pairs so that these pairs are somehow marked so that can not mix and with perfectly explained trigger setting and scope other settings (norm/Auto, possible trigger coupling filters and, trigger setup exactly and so on. (display dots/interpolatin line or sinc do not affect any thing, they are post processed.)

Sinc versus dots versus linear doesn't affect triggering??

OK, that raises a question: does the triggering mechanism *always* use sinc?  Or straight point-to-point?  Or something else?  It has to somehow detect that a transition has happened between acquired points, clearly, so it has to be doing some kind of interpolation for that, no?


Quote
Because if there is really no raw ADC data what explain wrong/failed trig, it need solve what make it. These can bit look and forward to Siglent for further analysis. It is not lottery machine and it do not have its own mind what some times do irrationally something like human..

Agreed.  OK, so the question then is: how do you want me to upload the data?  To where?  The resulting 7-zip archive of 14Mpoints of CSV data is far too large for uploads to this forum.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 08, 2020, 04:22:41 am
Quote from: kcbrown
Quote from: rf-loop

Have you tried same with analog side BW reject.

Limiting the bandwidth helps.  I'm running a test now to see if the issue reproduces at all with a 20 MHz bandwidth limit on the input. But limiting the bandwidth shouldn't be necessary.  What if you're trying to find high-frequency noise in the signal?  The point here is that if noise causes the trigger to fire and the trigger mechanism exclusively uses ADC output, that noise should be present in the capture!   But it wasn't, and isn't.

Of course. I think you have missed this point what I try.

I try analyze this problem. Not make guide how you can use it for something.
Primary purpose when I ask you do some like this is for isolate problem ana analyze because I know bit about how it works. So I may have some logic behind example this question. But I do not tell these my internal speculations behind these for avoid some mess.

Now I know after your words many things what you have tried and no effect. Now I also know that BW limit have effect. First time we hit something what have even some effect. So... this finding is Important but what all need think due to this... but also about this finding I do not want start speculate here what it may mean or not.  But it is important finding together with these findings about settings changes what have no effect.  ;)

 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 08, 2020, 04:26:59 am
This is very strange if it do not appear in capture or captured raw ADC data. It must be there, infinitely. Without it, it do not trig. But all is possible. Also some bug in FW what cause this reason is hiding. 
Do you have FULL  .CSV or Binary data.

Yes.  Well, I *had* it but had to reboot my computer, and didn't have them stored in a location that would survive the reboot.  But seeing how I can reproduce this essentially at will, getting the data isn't a problem at all.


Quote
Screen shot png and paired with this full saved sample data. Example 3 set of these pairs so that these pairs are somehow marked so that can not mix and with perfectly explained trigger setting and scope other settings (norm/Auto, possible trigger coupling filters and, trigger setup exactly and so on. (display dots/interpolatin line or sinc do not affect any thing, they are post processed.)

Sinc versus dots versus linear doesn't affect triggering??

OK, that raises a question: does the triggering mechanism *always* use sinc?  Or straight point-to-point?  Or something else?  It has to somehow detect that a transition has happened between acquired points, clearly, so it has to be doing some kind of interpolation for that, no?


Quote
Because if there is really no raw ADC data what explain wrong/failed trig, it need solve what make it. These can bit look and forward to Siglent for further analysis. It is not lottery machine and it do not have its own mind what some times do irrationally something like human..

Agreed.  OK, so the question then is: how do you want me to upload the data?  To where?  The resulting 7-zip archive of 14Mpoints of CSV data is far too large for uploads to this forum.

It need think. Also it need take account that what if...  and so on..  Do you have binary data also from same acquisition what you have CSV and I do not mean small part of acq. but of course every byte from start to end.
How big your zips are for both separately.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 08, 2020, 04:40:59 am
It need think. Also it need take account that what if...  and so on..  Do you have binary data also from same acquisition what you have CSV and I do not mean small part of acq. but of course every byte from start to end.
How big your zips are for both separately.

Well, "zip" and "7-zip" are actually two different things.  "7-zip" does a *much* better job of compressing.  While "zip" of the 14Mpoint CSV gets me a 30 megabyte zip file, "7-zip" gets me a roughly 9 megabyte "7z" file.  Both are archive formats that can store multiple files within the archive, so they're both good for the same thing.  You can get "7-zip" from https://www.7-zip.org (https://www.7-zip.org).

I don't know how much space an archive containing the binary format file will take.  I'll let you know.

Right now I'm running the test with the trigger bandwidth limiter enabled, and it hasn't reproduced yet (it's been running for about 30 minutes so far, with about 15K frames analyzed -- I'm using the mask function to detect a violation).  I'll let that run a bit longer before reverting back to full bandwidth on everything for the purpose of gathering the data.

The real question is where I should upload the resulting (rather large) archive files to.  Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on December 08, 2020, 04:50:02 am
You can try a free Box account (not Dropbox) as I don't think they are banned in China...yet...while Dropbox is.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 08, 2020, 04:53:30 am
I know this all may be bit frustrating. If I have here now this scope I can try repeat this error using noises etc... but I do not have.

In this image there is 1GSa/s  1ms/div 14M memory.

There was some other image where was 500MSa/s and 2ms/div

Both show this error.

But I have not seen any test (or my far over best before date eyes have not hit) test where is native 500MSa/s sampling speed.
In this 2ms 500MSa image it is decimated samplerate.

So, can you do also test just like this image:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1124846;image)
But change one thing. Turn just this ADC from interleaved mode to non interleaved mode so it have real 500MSa/s.
This you can do more easy than easy.
Keep 1ms and this channel. Turn Ch1  ON.  Now you see samplerate is 500MSa/s now ADC is not inteerleaved mode but normal 2 channel 500MSa mode.
As told some previous image also have 500MSa/s but is is decimated from 1GSa interleaved sampling.

It may have some difference depending how trigger engine listen these 4 x 250MHz 8 bit bus from ADC or 2 x 250MHz bus in non interleaved mode...
If it give real big difference.. it is very extremely important finding, together with this previous finding about BW reject (and case is that before BW reject in ADC data can not see any reason for wrong trig. )

Imho, both are important finding, it this change affect or if not. These can imagine are like road crosses and  how to go forward, right or left or straight.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 08, 2020, 05:02:15 am
It need think. Also it need take account that what if...  and so on..  Do you have binary data also from same acquisition what you have CSV and I do not mean small part of acq. but of course every byte from start to end.
How big your zips are for both separately.

Well, "zip" and "7-zip" are actually two different things.  "7-zip" does a *much* better job of compressing.  While "zip" of the 14Mpoint CSV gets me a 30 megabyte zip file, "7-zip" gets me a roughly 9 megabyte "7z" file.  Both are archive formats that can store multiple files within the archive, so they're both good for the same thing.  You can get "7-zip" from https://www.7-zip.org (https://www.7-zip.org).

I don't know how much space an archive containing the binary format file will take.  I'll let you know.

Right now I'm running the test with the trigger bandwidth limiter enabled, and it hasn't reproduced yet (it's been running for about 30 minutes so far, with about 15K frames analyzed -- I'm using the mask function to detect a violation).  I'll let that run a bit longer before reverting back to full bandwidth on everything for the purpose of gathering the data.

The real question is where I should upload the resulting (rather large) archive files to.  Any suggestions?

I am not just born. (ref zips)  ;)
I have used many many kind of packaging things as there have been personal computers far before IBM compatible shits.

It is fun how different result these different methods/algorithms give some times.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 08, 2020, 05:50:05 am
It is explained bit more but unfortunately "scrambled by natural enigma". Our "enigma" is our Finnish language what is said is second difficult after Chinese in world. 
In some images there is some english/finglish explanations. But more deep text explanations just with Finnish.
https://siglent.fi/oskilloskooppi-tietoa-sds1004x-e--wfm-speed.html

I am slowly reading through this with help from Google translate.  It's very helpful, thank you for writing it!

PS: there is a typo in the second (all yellow) table shown in Figure 1, in the line with t/div= 1ms.  Column 6 contains 1G sa/s. It should read 1M sa/s.

Typing mistake corrected, thank you.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 08, 2020, 06:24:37 am
I know this all may be bit frustrating. If I have here now this scope I can try repeat this error using noises etc... but I do not have.

In this image there is 1GSa/s  1ms/div 14M memory.

There was some other image where was 500MSa/s and 2ms/div

Both show this error.

But I have not seen any test (or my far over best before date eyes have not hit) test where is native 500MSa/s sampling speed.
In this 2ms 500MSa image it is decimated samplerate.

So, can you do also test just like this image:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1124846;image)
But change one thing. Turn just this ADC from interleaved mode to non interleaved mode so it have real 500MSa/s.
This you can do more easy than easy.
Keep 1ms and this channel. Turn Ch1  ON.  Now you see samplerate is 500MSa/s now ADC is not inteerleaved mode but normal 2 channel 500MSa mode.
As told some previous image also have 500MSa/s but is is decimated from 1GSa interleaved sampling.

It may have some difference depending how trigger engine listen these 4 x 250MHz 8 bit bus from ADC or 2 x 250MHz bus in non interleaved mode...
If it give real big difference.. it is very extremely important finding, together with this previous finding about BW reject (and case is that before BW reject in ADC data can not see any reason for wrong trig. )

Imho, both are important finding, it this change affect or if not. These can imagine are like road crosses and  how to go forward, right or left or straight.

The issue reproduces just as easily under these conditions as it does at 1GS/s.   I've captured the data for this, so I'll include it in the data dump.

I also found the original CSV from the single shot reproduction (I'd forgotten it was also still on the USB stick).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 08, 2020, 09:50:01 am
If you have box.com account you can PM me download link. Please name files or mark somehow other way so I know what is what.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 08, 2020, 10:13:14 am
Have you tried same with analog side BW reject.

So far this issue has *not* reproduced with the 20MHz bandwidth limiter enabled on the probe.  Looks to me like whatever's causing this, it's very high frequency noise that somehow doesn't appear in the capture.

I'll try some of the other things next.

This is very strange if it do not appear in capture or captured raw ADC data. It must be there, infinitely. Without it, it do not trig. But all is possible. Also some bug in FW what cause this reason is hiding. 
Do you have FULL  .CSV or Binary data. Screen shot png and paired with this full saved sample data. Example 3 set of these pairs so that these pairs are somehow marked so that can not mix and with perfectly explained trigger setting and scope other settings (norm/Auto, possible trigger coupling filters and, trigger setup exactly and so on. (display dots/interpolatin line or sinc do not affect any thing, they are post processed.)
Because if there is really no raw ADC data what explain wrong/failed trig, it need solve what make it. These can bit look and forward to Siglent for further analysis. It is not lottery machine and it do not have its own mind what some times do irrationally something like human..
Are we absolutely sure the trigger voltages are converted to adc values, and not let's say analog comparators? The strange thing is that when using scpi those voltages are attributes of each channel. In a complete digital situation, it would be more logical for them to be attributes of the trigger.
It could explain the behavior if they where analog... :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 08, 2020, 12:50:10 pm
Have you tried same with analog side BW reject.

So far this issue has *not* reproduced with the 20MHz bandwidth limiter enabled on the probe.  Looks to me like whatever's causing this, it's very high frequency noise that somehow doesn't appear in the capture.

I'll try some of the other things next.

This is very strange if it do not appear in capture or captured raw ADC data. It must be there, infinitely. Without it, it do not trig. But all is possible. Also some bug in FW what cause this reason is hiding. 
Do you have FULL  .CSV or Binary data. Screen shot png and paired with this full saved sample data. Example 3 set of these pairs so that these pairs are somehow marked so that can not mix and with perfectly explained trigger setting and scope other settings (norm/Auto, possible trigger coupling filters and, trigger setup exactly and so on. (display dots/interpolatin line or sinc do not affect any thing, they are post processed.)
Because if there is really no raw ADC data what explain wrong/failed trig, it need solve what make it. These can bit look and forward to Siglent for further analysis. It is not lottery machine and it do not have its own mind what some times do irrationally something like human..
Are we absolutely sure the trigger voltages are converted to adc values, and not let's say analog comparators? The strange thing is that when using scpi those voltages are attributes of each channel. In a complete digital situation, it would be more logical for them to be attributes of the trigger.
It could explain the behavior if they where analog... :-//

How many times it need say: Siglent trigger engine is totally and fully in digital side.
If you do not believe, please take one SDS on table and parts... and try find analog trigger side pathway from it,  starting from BNC and ending to ADC input. If you today find low price segment new DPO and it use analog trigger system just throw it out from window as fast as it arrive to your hand.  It belongs to museum.
Siglent is not Keysight IV machine what still have analog side pathway trigger engine lika in old times mostly all DSO.
Also Siglent OLD DL/CNL/CNL/CFL series have analog side pathway analog comparator trigger system
All X models have  full true digital side trigger system.
Only exception is ExtTrig input in some X/X-? models. It is analog trigger  where trigger level to compatator ís done using DAC.'
If you do not know what is true digital side trigger system you can find example nice Rohde&Schwarz explanation about it.
With these kind of Trigger things what are example in Siglent and many other modern scopes is quite difficult to do with analog trigger using simple circuits.

Of course now this case rise one question. These trigger things are complex and time critical things deep inside system. Always is possible that we hit some unexpected error. These are so comples no one can never test all combinations in product development. If some say it can he do not know what he is talking. So, this possible need keep in mind until further data and tests.
We have now ONE thing what is clear it affect. BW limit. Other things like more wide slope rising time limits did not affect. Now I am not sure if he have tested if trigger filter have effect but if I understand right trigger hysteresis change did not. Also changing ADC mode from interleaved to non interleaved did not affect.
Also just this particular trigger type many conditions must be met, much more complex than some simplest possible edge trig.
If it make error and do not trig..  btw... it have made this error. We have seen it in every  image. So this need keep carefully in thinking logic.
It need think. Every time it have "trigged" wrong place... we really do not even know if it is trigged... but other thing we know sure... every this fail image we see part of signal what meet all needs for trig and it have not trigged  or least positioned it to right place... what is also important to keep in mind.
How we know it is trigged just there where is trigger time position and signal position is wrong. Think again... who ever is thinking this... how we know it IS trigged  just in this position where trigger mark is and we see this signal in wrong position in case it have failed. Who know... I do not know and trigger do not tell what and when she have done things
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 08, 2020, 01:51:34 pm
Truth or fact is not about how many times one says something..  :o

I don't say its likely, but seeing the scope's behavior..

Also there could be benefits to analog triggers, for example when using slow "time div's", but very fast signals. At the moment I'm experimenting with that, to see how the scope responds.

Its stil running but it managed to capture a pulse of 32 ns each 700s using only 10 Samples/s (100 s/div thus 23 min/screen). That's amazing if it where only digital...

Maybe it sampling faster under water than it says?

If thats true than we have another possible explanation..(I see that the faulty trigger examples are at max sample rate, so probably not)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on December 08, 2020, 02:35:47 pm
Truth or fact is not about how many times one says something..  :o

I don't say its likely, but seeing the scope's behavior..

Also there could be benefits to analog triggers, for example when using slow "time div's", but very fast signals. At the moment I'm experimenting with that, to see how the scope responds.

Its stil running but it managed to capture a pulse of 32 ns each 700s using only 10 Samples/s (100 s/div thus 23 min/screen). That's amazing if it where only digital...

Maybe it sampling faster under water than it says?

If thats true than we have another possible explanation..(I see that the faulty trigger examples are at max sample rate, so probably not)

It is true because he knows it for fact. It is fully digital, and triggering engine works with full sample rate, before decimation....
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 08, 2020, 02:41:06 pm
On a slow time base it is very possible to have it trigger on a pulse (2.5V, 32 nS) without seeing it happen on screen. Using a very simple edge trigger.

It probably doesn't prove much, because it is propably sampling faster under water.

Edit:
This post crossed the above one... in which my guess is already confirmed
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 08, 2020, 03:01:43 pm
Truth or fact is not about how many times one says something..  :o

I don't say its likely, but seeing the scope's behavior..

Also there could be benefits to analog triggers, for example when using slow "time div's", but very fast signals. At the moment I'm experimenting with that, to see how the scope responds.

Its stil running but it managed to capture a pulse of 32 ns each 700s using only 10 Samples/s (100 s/div thus 23 min/screen). That's amazing if it where only digital...

Maybe it sampling faster under water than it says?

If thats true than we have another possible explanation..(I see that the faulty trigger examples are at max sample rate, so probably not)

ADC in SDS1000X-E works always full speed. interleaved mode full speed or non interleaved full speed. If we are now talking about SDS1000X-E. Trigger do not care your decimated samplerate at all. No one make serious oscilloscope what trig from decimated data...
If scope display show example 1ksa/s ADC works still full speed! And digital trigger engine is there.

Is now time to take some lesson how digital oscilloscopes overall works behind screen and input connectors. I think it is better to open new thread just for this if need.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on December 08, 2020, 03:18:54 pm
On a slow time base it is very possible to have it trigger on a pulse (2.5V, 32 nS) without seeing it happen on screen. Using a very simple edge trigger.

It probably doesn't prove much, because it is propably sampling faster under water.

That is why there exists peak detect mode. It will show those peaks..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 08, 2020, 03:30:15 pm


It probably doesn't prove much, because it is propably sampling faster under water.

How useful is this talking and wondering if you do not believe or listen anything what is said about it.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 08, 2020, 04:09:20 pm
On a slow time base it is very possible to have it trigger on a pulse (2.5V, 32 nS) without seeing it happen on screen. Using a very simple edge trigger.

It probably doesn't prove much, because it is propably sampling faster under water.
That is why there exists peak detect mode. It will show those peaks..
I just figured that one out by myself as well :D
Just before I thought it was only a way of displaying underlying data. Now I know why the aquisition needs to be redone.
Now I wonder, does it need twice the memory..? Will look it up, because it is not relevant to the issue.
B.t.w. I know I'm lacking technical knowledge regarding this scope, I see myself more like a user. But the question is how much knowledge will be needed to pinpoint the issue some more. I think experiments are propably more important. I'm also not yet fully engaged in this issue (yet), but I don't dislike to finding "truth" with very little information. For instance I know now why going on a "slower sampling speed" will not induce comparable behavior. Which might together with the non analog trigger already be enough technical info.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on December 08, 2020, 04:43:19 pm
On a slow time base it is very possible to have it trigger on a pulse (2.5V, 32 nS) without seeing it happen on screen. Using a very simple edge trigger.

It probably doesn't prove much, because it is propably sampling faster under water.
That is why there exists peak detect mode. It will show those peaks..
I just figured that one out by myself as well :D
Just before I thought it was only a way of displaying underlying data. Now I know why the aquisition needs to be redone.
Now I wonder, does it need twice the memory..? Will look it up, because it is not relevant to the issue.
B.t.w. I know I'm lacking technical knowledge regarding this scope, I see myself more like a user. But the question is how much knowledge will be needed to pinpoint the issue some more. I think experiments are propably more important. I'm also not yet fully engaged in this issue (yet), but I don't dislike to finding "thruth" with very little information. For instance I know now why going on a "slower sampling speed" will not induce comparable behavior. Which might together with the non analog trigger already be enough technical info.

No need for twice the memory. Peak detect happens only when decimating data, in which you keep one point, discard next 9.. You just decimated by 10x. If you look at those 10 points and keep largest value from them, you just did peak detect. If you keep min and max, you get envelope detect, that one will have twice the data...

As for facts and beliefs, there are facts that are common sense, there facts that come from people who work with it so they know, and there is information coming from speculations that need to be verified. Not every thing need to be always proved from first principles..

Complex triggers can have bugs that won't show at certain timebases, if for not other reason, they might have temporal conditions, that might have bugs in calculations and scaling...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 08, 2020, 05:30:23 pm
Okay so no negative peaks, like minimals..

About the facts. I might have skipped the digital trigger (vs analog) trigger post.. Got some brain damage, so reading and processing information is a bit impaired.
So my remark:
Truth or fact is not about how many times one says something..  :o
Was more a general remark, not a disbelief in what was said (which I didn't read).

But either way: in this situation that fact should be traced to its roots. If rf-loop is that root of knowledge than :-+.

There's more to say but I'll leave it like this.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on December 08, 2020, 08:37:35 pm
Okay so no negative peaks, like minimals..

About the facts. I might have skipped the digital trigger (vs analog) trigger post.. Got some brain damage, so reading and processing information is a bit impaired.
So my remark:
Truth or fact is not about how many times one says something..  :o
Was more a general remark, not a disbelief in what was said (which I didn't read).

But either way: in this situation that fact should be traced to its roots. If rf-loop is that root of knowledge than :-+.

There's more to say but I'll leave it like this.

Peak detect mode is extrema, positive and negative. Commercial names for functions are not necessarily mathematically correct..
We all have our problems and coping strategies. Will to do it right is only thing important. So in the end, only time needed is different, but results are same and correct.

For Siglent equipment, users RF-loop and Preforma01 are authoritative source.. Also Tautech (he's Siglent dealer) have lots of information, and what he doesn't know he can usually ask Siglent and get back quality info..
There are also about dozen other users that are very knowledgeable and have various Siglent  equipment that are good source of info..

Regards,
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 08, 2020, 09:01:00 pm
Now there's even more to say but I'll leave it like this otherwise things could side track some more. :-X

Regards as well  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: DEV001 on December 09, 2020, 12:22:49 am
rf-loops analysis and writeup on the SDS1104X-E is what motivated me to purchase it.  :-+

He shows the real world data for the scope and his reports are 1000x better than the actual Siglent official documentation IMO.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 09, 2020, 12:59:20 am
It probably doesn't prove much, because it is propably sampling faster under water.

How useful is this talking and wondering if you do not believe or listen anything what is said about it.
A quick response on this is still required. While I was wondering and creating screen shots, my guess was already confirmed. It might than seem stubborn to then still call it probable, but the posts just crossed each other.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 09, 2020, 01:09:36 am
rf-loops analysis and writeup on the SDS1104X-E is what motivated me to purchase it.  :-+

He shows the real world data for the scope and his reports are 1000x better than the actual Siglent official documentation IMO.
Yes, very wise and experienced old EE and communicates exceptionally well considering his mother tongue is Finnish not English.  :o
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 09, 2020, 02:23:14 am
It probably doesn't prove much, because it is propably sampling faster under water.

How useful is this talking and wondering if you do not believe or listen anything what is said about it.
A quick response on this is still required. While I was wondering and creating screen shots, my guess was already confirmed. It might than seem stubborn to then still call it probable, but the posts just crossed each other.

Self learning and making own tests and thinking these is of course very good. And it is nice to see some peoples do, example you. I see you do lot of work for "know your test instrument" what is always important for better results when use it and also for understand what it display - and also importantly - what not.

Also some times in my life I have seen "stupid" speculations or some simple adverse or "wrong" question have open road to solve problem...  so..  also method "negation test" is very important basic tool in problem solving.



This is not personal.

For all.

About SDS1104X-E/SDS1204X-E  there is huge set of information. Partially very deep information.
Of course after 2017 many things have changed bit due to FW updates and also there is perhaps some small questionable details but overall amazing good source for knowledge how this works. @Performa01 have done lot of work for this.
Long time I have not read these and do not know how up to date these are but basic fundamentals have not changed.
Some times it is good to pop up this thread due to its valued information.

It is here
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371771/#msg1371771 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371771/#msg1371771)
Siglent SDS1104X-E In-Depth Review

Starting from first message there is downloadable pdf  review documents  over 170 pages full of tests details and knowledge.
It is useful to read for everyone who is bit more intersted about "how my instrument works"

Other place is one thread what is some kind of introduction about 2nd generation BodePlot  what these scopes have today. (after this very first bit poor version) but it is other thing and do not belong under "how oscilloscope work" it belongs to "How SFRA" works what is totally different animal but in same box.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/?action=dlattach;attach=397073 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/?action=dlattach;attach=397073)
SDS1104X-E Review 1-25.pdf


https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/?action=dlattach;attach=397074 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/?action=dlattach;attach=397074)
SDS1104X-E Review 26-50.pdf

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/?action=dlattach;attach=397075 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/?action=dlattach;attach=397075)
SDS1000X-E Bandwidth.pdf

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/?action=dlattach;attach=397077 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/?action=dlattach;attach=397077)
 SDS1104X-E Review 70-93.pdf

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/?action=dlattach;attach=397078 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/?action=dlattach;attach=397078)
SDS1104X-E Review 93-108.pdf

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/?action=dlattach;attach=397079 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/?action=dlattach;attach=397079)
SDS1104X-E Review 109-137.pdf

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/?action=dlattach;attach=397080 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/?action=dlattach;attach=397080)
SDS1104X-E Review 137-162.pdf

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/?action=dlattach;attach=397081 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/?action=dlattach;attach=397081)
SDS1104X-E Review 163-174.pdf

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ballen on December 09, 2020, 04:25:10 am
It is explained bit more but unfortunately "scrambled by natural enigma". Our "enigma" is our Finnish language what is said is second difficult after Chinese in world. 
In some images there is some english/finglish explanations. But more deep text explanations just with Finnish.
https://siglent.fi/oskilloskooppi-tietoa-sds1004x-e--wfm-speed.html

I am slowly reading through this with help from Google translate.  It's very helpful, thank you for writing it!

PS: there is a typo in the second (all yellow) table shown in Figure 1, in the line with t/div= 1ms.  Column 6 contains 1G sa/s. It should read 1M sa/s.

Typing mistake corrected, thank you.

Something that would be very useful for me would be a block diagram of the scope.  This would help me to construct a good internal model for what it's doing.  Just a page or two back you posted a nice block diagram showing the input front end, the DAC for offsets, the ADC feeding the triggering system, but then it gets less precise.  Is there a more complete block diagram that shows the acquisition/history/sequence/frame system in some detail?

A few questions regarding the sampling/trigger system: is the ADC always running at 1Gs/sec then decimating afterwards?  Is the decimation done before or after the triggering system?  When decimating can the scope keep/store more than 8 bits in memory?  For example when the scope is acquiring data at 4Msa/a (decimation by factor of 256) in principle one could add the 256 8-bit values to get 16 bit resolution. 

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ballen on December 09, 2020, 04:35:38 am
This post crossed the above one... in which my guess is already confirmed

In your post you included a screen dump ("settings.png") showing the scope settings?  If there is a simple way to produce this?  Or did you do it by hand?  If there's a simple way to make such a dump, please tell me how, it will be useful the next time I want to ask about behaviour which I don't understand.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 09, 2020, 06:31:13 am
This post crossed the above one... in which my guess is already confirmed

In your post you included a screen dump ("settings.png") showing the scope settings?  If there is a simple way to produce this?  Or did you do it by hand?  If there's a simple way to make such a dump, please tell me how, it will be useful the next time I want to ask about behaviour which I don't understand.
Knowing HendriXML's advanced SCPI use I'd say he's written a little script.
Check out some of his threads to see what he's been getting up to with his Siglent equipment.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 09, 2020, 07:48:03 am
It is explained bit more but unfortunately "scrambled by natural enigma". Our "enigma" is our Finnish language what is said is second difficult after Chinese in world. 
In some images there is some english/finglish explanations. But more deep text explanations just with Finnish.
https://siglent.fi/oskilloskooppi-tietoa-sds1004x-e--wfm-speed.html

I am slowly reading through this with help from Google translate.  It's very helpful, thank you for writing it!

PS: there is a typo in the second (all yellow) table shown in Figure 1, in the line with t/div= 1ms.  Column 6 contains 1G sa/s. It should read 1M sa/s.

Typing mistake corrected, thank you.

Something that would be very useful for me would be a block diagram of the scope.  This would help me to construct a good internal model for what it's doing.  Just a page or two back you posted a nice block diagram showing the input front end, the DAC for offsets, the ADC feeding the triggering system, but then it gets less precise.  Is there a more complete block diagram that shows the acquisition/history/sequence/frame system in some detail?

A few questions regarding the sampling/trigger system: is the ADC always running at 1Gs/sec then decimating afterwards?  Is the decimation done before or after the triggering system?  When decimating can the scope keep/store more than 8 bits in memory?  For example when the scope is acquiring data at 4Msa/a (decimation by factor of 256) in principle one could add the 256 8-bit values to get 16 bit resolution.

There is not this like of functional "block diagram" what also somehow give imagination what user then see when he is using scope.
Also I miss this kind of block diagram not for me but for perhaps for user guidance and counseling.
What I have is just my own made some kind of teaching "flip chart" material in mind what need also explanations by talking when show these images... but they are as they are now. There is some what give rough imagine about sequence, history  and so on but they only give very rough basic fuzzy imagine what is going on there.

Quote
is the ADC always running at 1Gs/sec then decimating afterwards?

No but yes...

If scope have some special mode it is least possible ADC run some of its lower speed. But example in 1000X-E/U ADC work always full speed what is 1GSa/s in interleaved mode and 500MSa/s in "non interleaved" mode.
There is 1 ADC for 2 channels.  When only one is in use ADC run in interleaved mode 1GSa/s, always afaik.
When both channels in use it run "non interleaved" mode and samplerate is 500MSa/s .
(now need remember that if second channel pair ADCserve 2 channels it force also otherchannel pair ADC 500MSa/s.

Note: Also 500MSa/s "non interleaved" mode is interleaved but because this X-E model use it only in 1 or 2 channel mode it can somehow think is is non interleaved. But if look bit more deep it is also interleaved. 1 ADC what is HMCAD1511 have 4x250MSa/s ADC. (example in Rigol 1000Z ADC is shared for all channels and full speed rates are 1Gsa, 500MSa and 250MSa/s. Same "full" samplerates are now also in Siglent X-U)


In Siglent data sheet is one mystery what I hit just short time ago. and I do not know if it is typemistake or what it is. I will later try get more deep info... except if example Performa01 know and see this.
X-U data sheet:  Peak detect 2ns.
X-E data sheeet:   4 channels models 2ns, 2 channel models 4ns. Weird. If they are opposite, still weird. Why they are different I do not have idea.


These are two true full speeds in 1000X-E models.
It need note that if example turn one channel in use, time scale for 1ms/div and memory is 14M  it use 1GSa/s full speed. If change to 2ms/div it drops to 500MSa/s  and in this case ADC still run 1GSa/s so this  500MSa/s is not full speed 500MSa/s but this is  decimated 500MSa/s.

As far as I know. Trigger system get always ADC full speed samplerate 1GSa or 500MSa/s.  When ever it decimate, it happen after main part of trigger system. If there is decimated samplerate 500MSa/s then every second sample is dropped.

In these 1000 models, in memory is always only 8bit raw ADC data. If with 1GSa/s ADC decimated (and displayed) samplerate is 5MSa/s in mean that it take 1 sample and drop away 199 samples. It do not look what is "best" sample or what is average in this 200 samples group. Stored byte is just this byte what is every 200th byte in order in queue. This in normal mode.
In Peak detect mode it look what is highest in decimation "group" (example in this 200 sample group) and take this one to acq. memory (and loose it time position in original ADC data.).

SDS2000XPlus is different. It can produce more than 8bit in high resolution mode and of course it then consume also more memory.

So in short.
ADC work always full speed what depends how many channels in use.
Trigger engine listen this non decimated ADC stream.
If need decimate, it happen after then before acquisition memory what have always 8bit level information.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 09, 2020, 10:47:24 am
This post crossed the above one... in which my guess is already confirmed

In your post you included a screen dump ("settings.png") showing the scope settings?  If there is a simple way to produce this?  Or did you do it by hand?  If there's a simple way to make such a dump, please tell me how, it will be useful the next time I want to ask about behaviour which I don't understand.
Its something a script that I made does. It syncs inifile settings using scpi commands. Essentially parameters have actual / requested values. Requested values are read from ini settings (as shown). Actual values are read from the scope. If requested value is different then actual it is synced with the scope. (Checking if its different makes it a lot faster) Also the requested value (or in absence of it the actual value) is written as an ini setting. So at the end the output contains the most important settings of the scope. This output is easy to read, but can also be used to restore the scopes settings the next time.
The script can handle more tasks like creating a screen dumps, saving the wave data to xml files. Eventually it will also be able to sync settings with my awg and psu, so its very easy to document and restore an experimental setup. I've thought about making it available, but "supporting" it would unfortunately take too much effort.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 10, 2020, 01:15:35 am
Weird.  The noise source seems to have disappeared, at least for now.  End result is that the issue doesn't reproduce right now.  I did manage to get a nice capture of it reproducing once with full bandwidth (i.e., no noise filtering anywhere), 1GS/s, and 14Mpoints memory depth, and saved everything including the setup.  I'm now running it with full bandwidth and 500MS/s with channel 1 enabled but configured to not show on the screen (recall that I'm using channel 2 for the waveform capture), and we'll see if the noise source comes back and the issue reproduces once again.

Seems the setup file is an XML file, and it seems to contain everything, including trigger settings.  Means it's possible for someone who knows what the values mean to interpret it.  And presumably, you can restore your scope settings from the file in order to see for yourself exactly what the settings were.

In any case, I'm going to create an archive with everything I got from the last reproduction attempt, which includes the settings, a couple of screenshots (one with the mask shown and one with the mask not shown), the binary data, and the full CSV file, and upload that to my Box account, and then share the link to it here so that anyone who's interested in looking at it can check it out.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 10, 2020, 01:41:56 am
OK, here's the link to the 7-zip archive containing the data for the last reproduction of the issue: https://app.box.com/s/ciq2s35embv450slixr79tn2rg13ylil

Let me know if you have trouble getting to it and I'll see what I can do.

If you would like me to, I'll be happy to edit this message to include the screenshots, but the archive does contain them.

Here's the contents:

Code: [Select]
kevin@ubuntu:/tmp$ 7z l /tmp/FULLBW-1GS.7z

7-Zip [64] 16.02 : Copyright (c) 1999-2016 Igor Pavlov : 2016-05-21
p7zip Version 16.02 (locale=en_US.UTF-8,Utf16=on,HugeFiles=on,64 bits,8 CPUs Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-2680 v2 @ 2.80GHz (306E4),ASM,AES-NI)

Scanning the drive for archives:
1 file, 7057584 bytes (6893 KiB)

Listing archive: /tmp/FULLBW-1GS.7z

--
Path = /tmp/FULLBW-1GS.7z
Type = 7z
Physical Size = 7057584
Headers Size = 322
Method = LZMA2:24
Solid = +
Blocks = 1

   Date      Time    Attr         Size   Compressed  Name
------------------- ----- ------------ ------------  ------------------------
2020-12-09 19:35:30 D....            0            0  FULLBW-1GS
1979-12-31 18:00:00 ....A     14002048      7057262  FULLBW-1GS/Binnary.bin
1979-12-31 18:00:00 ....A    392000339               FULLBW-1GS/CSV.csv
2020-12-09 19:35:30 ....A         1155               FULLBW-1GS/README.txt
2020-12-09 19:30:44 ....A         1099               FULLBW-1GS/README.txt~
1979-12-31 18:00:00 ....A        16422               FULLBW-1GS/SDS00001.png
1979-12-31 18:00:00 ....A        19629               FULLBW-1GS/SDS00002.png
1979-12-31 18:00:00 ....A        79986               FULLBW-1GS/Setup.xml
------------------- ----- ------------ ------------  ------------------------
2020-12-09 19:35:30          406120678      7057262  7 files, 1 folders


As a side note, I must say that 7-zip is rather impressive in terms of its compression capabilities.  It compresses the contents of the archive down to 7 megabytes.  "Zip" compressed it to 42 megabytes.  That's a 6-fold difference.   :o
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 10, 2020, 12:52:53 pm
Made a script that decimated the wave into 2 seperated ones (to make it managable), one with mins, other with maxs. Both are plotted in Excel.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 10, 2020, 01:18:49 pm
On the time axis Excel missed the decimal so I made a new one, with a 0.5 .. 1.5 ms time window.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 10, 2020, 01:22:51 pm
While not zoomin as well... :P
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 10, 2020, 02:35:43 pm
Simply. Signal what is available from acquistion memory do not contain any single thing what explain that this waveform is "trigged" and displayed.
-------

Still one question even you have once answered this but I hope more exactly.

Have you looked more long time that if you turn 20MHz BW filter on then it never do this in this test setup or is it so that it do but much more rarely. If it totally stop this fail it is one important finding.

More and more I feel this is perhaps some kind of bug.  But BW on/off may lead to 2 different main chain of reasoning if it totally stop this failure exist or if it just make it only more rare. If it only make it small amount more rare then it is nearly nonsense.

How it is?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 10, 2020, 03:54:49 pm
It should trigger, only not that location, non?

Maybe there're 2 different parts that analyse the waveform, the first one that is correct. And a second pass which has failing logic, which shifts the trigger location.

A good test would be a signal that shouldn't trigger at all.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 10, 2020, 04:14:29 pm
I did some line drawing in a paint app, and it seem it shouldn't trigger at all, but it's close. (I don't know how the hysteresis should work.., so maybe it should anyways)

If the trigger logic is known (with hysteresis) it could be brought into a script and have it "watch" for a trigger event using the same data.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 10, 2020, 07:13:29 pm
Simply. Signal what is available from acquistion memory do not contain any single thing what explain that this waveform is "trigged" and displayed.
-------

Still one question even you have once answered this but I hope more exactly.

Have you looked more long time that if you turn 20MHz BW filter on then it never do this in this test setup or is it so that it do but much more rarely. If it totally stop this fail it is one important finding.

I left it running for considerably longer than it generally took to reproduce without the filter on, but perhaps not long enough.  I'll be happy to turn the filter on and leave it running for however long you like.  So: how long would you like me to run the test with the 20MHz bandwidth enabled?


Quote
More and more I feel this is perhaps some kind of bug.  But BW on/off may lead to 2 different main chain of reasoning if it totally stop this failure exist or if it just make it only more rare. If it only make it small amount more rare then it is nearly nonsense.

How it is?

It's a good question.  Just let me know how long you'd like me to run the test for and I'll be happy to do it.

Also, what additional conditions, if any, would you like for the test?   500MS/s non-interleaved (which means I'd turn on channel 1)?  I normally run tests like this at 1GS/s because it allows for finer granularity of the resulting acquisition.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 10, 2020, 07:41:18 pm
The noise source came back, so I was able to reproduce the issue again, this time with 500MS/s non-interleaved capture (by enabling channel 1 and putting it into "hidden" mode).  Here's the archive with the data for that: https://app.box.com/s/ubr1g01hp497u4rbj39kj5b2ldm9beek
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 10, 2020, 09:02:31 pm
I've created some simple trigger logic.
At
-6,63E-03 it leaves the low voltage
At
-5,37E-03 it then enters the high voltage

The time between is:
1,2589 ms

So it should trigger because 1.2589 ms is between 0.5 ms to 1.5 ms

So in the example it might be that just the trigger location is wrong.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 10, 2020, 09:25:16 pm
Second example..

Trigger moments:
-6,5483280E-03   
-5,2723780E-03   

Time between:
1,2760 ms
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 10, 2020, 09:28:36 pm
What can be said?

Both have met trigger criteria.

Both have a succeeding falling slope in which it goes from "mid voltage" to "high voltage": against that falling slope!

This might be the criteria for the bug....because in every day usage this might be rare (certainly if some hysteresis is applied)...

If bandwidth limit is on, it doesn't overcome hysteresis, so that could be why bandwidth limit is off is another bug criteria.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 10, 2020, 09:39:34 pm
Your screenshot seems to hide the spike :-//

Edit..

It's very faint.. Trap for young players... :o
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 10, 2020, 10:11:51 pm
Your screenshot seems to hide the spike :-//

Edit..

It's very faint.. Trap for young players... :o

Yep.  This is why I like to look at the CSV when trying to figure these things out.

It looks like you agree with me that there's a bug.  I told the scope that the time window is between 0.5ms and 1.5ms.  That time window is supposed to specify a slope.  It *can't* specify a slope unless it specifies the time range for the first point of the line that defines the slope.  The second point of the line that defines the slope is at time 0, when the trigger fires.  You can interpret this in one of two ways (which amount to the same thing):


The first interpretation is the one I use because it's consistent with the time values show in the CSV of the capture: negative time is time preceding the point where the trigger fired, and positive time is time after the trigger fired, and t = 0 is when the trigger fired.  This is the interpretation that I'll use going forward.

Now, this means that the trigger shouldn't have fired when it did.  Why?  Because there is no transition across 3.5V anywhere between t = -1.5ms and t = -0.5ms.  Remember that this is supposed to be a rising slope trigger, which means that the voltage of the first point is supposed to be lower than the voltage of the second point, and the waveform is supposed to rise through the first voltage (3.5V) between t = -1.5ms and t = -0.5ms, and is supposed to rise through the second voltage (4.5V) at t = 0.

Put another way, the spike meets the criteria for the second point (at t = 0), but there is nothing in the waveform that simultaneously satisfies both the time criteria and the voltage criteria for the first point relative to when the trigger fired.  Yes, of course there's a rise through 3.5V at t = -6.5ms and another through 4.5V at t = -5.2s.  That is when the trigger should have fired.  But it absolutely should not have fired when it actually did, and that's the problem.

Hence, bug.

By the way, I think it's safe to say that the trigger did actually fire when it shouldn't have.  The reason is that the trigger firing is what defines when a capture takes place, and the capture in question is a full 14Mpoints.  If this were just a display bug then t = 0 in the capture wouldn't be at exactly the halfway point in the data -- it would be offset.  But it's halfway through the data, meaning you have 7Mpoints before it and 7Mpoints after it.  This tells me that the trigger actually fired, and caused a capture, when it shouldn't have.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 10, 2020, 11:01:21 pm
It's always hard to find the rational of a bug.  :D

I think it is a bug, but probably limited to trigger location and not a "false positive".

From a gut feeling I don't think the logic which causes the bug is acting on raw / primary data. I guess it is preprocessed and handling on thing like crossings and slopes and times between them and other stuff. Resuse of some preprocessing between trigger types might be the reason. Maybe this preprocess outputs stuff which was not expected by the programmer. While only handling rawdata this specific triggertype seems not to hard to get right. But maybe the functional requirements are more complex than I think. For instance I don't understand the need for some hysteresis yet.

Maybe I'll put your (noisy) wave in my awg and see if that replicates the bug. With an awg more manipulations can be done, thus more experiments / hour  :-+

It's sad that my awg only handles 16k of samples. But putting min/max voltages after each other should give a comparable wave.

Also simpler waves can be tried.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 11, 2020, 12:25:05 am
It's always hard to find the rational of a bug.  :D

This is definitely true!

Quote
I think it is a bug, but probably limited to trigger location and not a misfire.

I'm not sure I follow.  What's the difference between when the trigger fires and the "location" of the trigger?   The "location" of the trigger is, I thought, defined by when it fires.   There can be preconditions (latches) that are set as part of the trigger operation, but when it fires is its location.

There are two pieces of evidence which say that the trigger is firing when it shouldn't:


Quote
From a gut feeling I don't think the logic which causes the bug is acting on raw / primary data.

That's possible.   But that contradicts what rf-loop has repeatedly insisted about how the trigger works, namely that it operates directly on the basis of the ADC output.


Quote
I guess it is preprocessed and handling on thing like crossings and slopes and times between them and other stuff. Resuse of some preprocessing between trigger types might be the reason. Maybe this preprocess outputs stuff which was not expected by the programmer. While only handling rawdata this specific triggertype seems not to hard to get right. But maybe the functional requirements are more complex than I think. For instance I don't understand the need for some hysteresis yet.

That, too, is possible.  But if I had to speculate as to the cause of the issue, I'd say that it's happening as a result of the trigger mechanism failing to reset the initial condition latch (which, in this case, is the rising edge requirement through 3.5V at t between -1.5ms and 0.5ms), and firing again after it had already fired on the earlier section of the waveform.

Hmm...that suggests the possibility of a test.  Is there anything that indicates, down to the picosecond, when the trigger fired?  I ask because I can set the memory depth to 1.4Mpoints, and that would give me 10 segments worth of captures.  If the segment data includes the relative time at which the trigger fired, then we can look at the time of the incorrect capture segment relative to the time of the immediately prior segment.  If the difference is less than one waveform period then we'll know for sure that the issue is with the initial condition latch not being reset.

Hmm...looks like if you enable the list in the segment history, it'll show you the time of the segment.  It doesn't take you all the way down to the picosecond, but it may be good enough for our purposes here.  I've got a test running now with that setup, but it hasn't reproduced yet.  Should be interesting to see what happens.


Quote
Maybe I'll put your (noisy) wave in my awg and see if that replicates the bug. With an awg more manipulations can be done, thus more experiments / hour  :-+

It's sad that my awg only handles 16k of samples. But putting min/max voltages after each other should give a comparable wave.

Also simpler waves can be tried.

It'll be very interesting to see what you find!   What AWG do you have?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 11, 2020, 12:48:21 am
A SDG1032

Hardware wise it can act on raw data from the ADC, but I mean software wise there can be separated pieces of logic. Programmers like to create "engines", but these may hide or introduce stuff.. mostly it is going from lower level decision making to higher level decision-making.

The trigger system is propably run on a FPGA, which I have no experience with, but I imagine it involves "piping" data between different logic blocks.  :-//

In my thinking a trigger is what stops the continuous capture of samples. At that moment there's pretrigger data. Post trigger data need some more samples.
(It doesn't need to be 50%/50%. The horizontal position knob can make it more or less.
In that sense it seems not buggy. However showing the location and the amount of pre/post trigger data is faulty. Hence giving a wrong impression of what actually triggered it.
This is just guessing, someone has to dive into the software to get the "rational" behind the bug. But by experimenting more can be known about it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 11, 2020, 02:54:29 am
In my thinking a trigger is what stops the continuous capture of samples. At that moment there's pretrigger data. ...

Excuse me but ... What  :o


These speculations after speculations goes now so wild that... perhaps some other things are more useful.

In solving problems, it is essential to question all assumptions all the time. Likewise, a so-called negation test must be performed at each bend.
Break the reasoning chains often enough based on some assumptions that make it easy to see other options, dead ends, or closed-circle conclusions.

Exclude things, in good order, but only when they can be ruled out using real hard core facts. Proceed logically.
Unfortunately, in this case, it also requires knowledge of the details of the internal HW structure of the device as well as the SW structure, which is not public information.

All, go on, keep going!... I look at the side. I'm bit too old fox for playing fun.  Yes it is "laying fun" because it can not solve here.
But other ways this level and kind of "playing fun" can be also overall really useful for learning purposes.

Lets hope Siglent can repeat this problem in lab and find root reason.    if not find any other explanation but error in system
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 11, 2020, 03:07:07 am
A SDG1032

Hardware wise it can act on raw data from the ADC, but I mean software wise there can be separated pieces of logic. Programmers like to create "engines", but these may hide or introduce stuff.. mostly it is going from lower level decision making to higher level decision-making.

Of course, with FPGAs, the line between software and hardware is rather blurred.   :)

Quote
In my thinking a trigger is what stops the continuous capture of samples. At that moment there's pretrigger data. Post trigger data need some more samples.
(It doesn't need to be 50%/50%. The horizontal position knot can make it more or less.

It's probably more like that the trigger indicates at what point in the stream of data that the trigger conditions have been met, and then the scope would put markers in the appropriate places at the appropriate times.   There are lots of ways to approach that problem, some more efficient than others.

Quote
In that sense it seems not buggy. However showing the location and the amount of pre/post trigger data is faulty. Hence giving a wrong impression of what actually triggered it.
This is just guessing, someone has to dive into the software to get the "rational" behind the bug. But by experimenting more can be known about it.

Well, see, this is where the fact that the final condition is always met at time 0 comes into the picture.  Yeah, if that weren't the case, then maybe it would just be a problem with the time indicators.  But in this case that final condition is *always* met at t = 0.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 11, 2020, 09:20:19 am
That, too, is possible.  But if I had to speculate as to the cause of the issue, I'd say that it's happening as a result of the trigger mechanism failing to reset the initial condition latch (which, in this case, is the rising edge requirement through 3.5V at t between -1.5ms and 0.5ms), and firing again after it had already fired on the earlier section of the waveform.

Hmm...that suggests the possibility of a test.  Is there anything that indicates, down to the picosecond, when the trigger fired?  I ask because I can set the memory depth to 1.4Mpoints, and that would give me 10 segments worth of captures.  If the segment data includes the relative time at which the trigger fired, then we can look at the time of the incorrect capture segment relative to the time of the immediately prior segment.  If the difference is less than one waveform period then we'll know for sure that the issue is with the initial condition latch not being reset.

Hmm...looks like if you enable the list in the segment history, it'll show you the time of the segment.  It doesn't take you all the way down to the picosecond, but it may be good enough for our purposes here.  I've got a test running now with that setup, but it hasn't reproduced yet.  Should be interesting to see what happens.

Turns out that at 1ms/div, the standard acquisition rate of a 60Hz signal is just too slow to make it clear whether or not the trigger is firing in that way, with acquisitions happening somewhere between 50ms and 66ms per frame.  In order to ensure consistent acquisition at 16ms per frame (i.e., at the period of the signal itself), I had to drop to 500us per division and 140k points per frame.  With that setup, I get a consistent 16ms per frame even with the mask test enabled, and I'm now running that test.  Should be interesting to see what comes of it.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 11, 2020, 10:59:18 am
In my thinking a trigger is what stops the continuous capture of samples. At that moment there's pretrigger data. ...

Excuse me but ... What  :o

That got you triggered   :o
Yes that is my "user point of view". And I cannot imagine it being to far off, with a bit of flexible thinking.

But yor response got me triggered as well  :-\

The best way to attack this problem would be to have a Siglent engineer to enter the party and look at the buggy logic.
Without that speculation is needed to come to new testcases.

As said I don't think thorough knowledge of the system is required for that. You could sit by and relax for that matter.. :P

For me this exercise is purely for fun, I don't get paid. In meanwhile interesting techniques might come by, like showing settings in a readable format, creating Excel graphs, transferring waveform to arw. For me its about being creative, and thus flexible. My guess this accounts for many of the forummembers.

As said before much more can be said..
Like about approaching problems and maybe life itself, rigid vs flexible. For hobiest it should not only be about progressing in greater understanding of electronics, but mostly about keeping it enjoyable. Otherwise the hobby might kill it self, or worse continue as a source of frustration.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on December 11, 2020, 01:38:09 pm
Datapump, digital trigger, buffer management all of that is not that simple in real life scope for "little Johny" approach.
While it might seem simple on the outside, there are many tricks to make it work. Most of the real details how it works on specific scope won't be revealed by manufacturer, and never will be.
They don't care for your, mine or anybody's curiosity. They are not open source.  It is their, sometimes very expensive intellectual property.

This relationship works by customers finding a bug, reporting it, both customer and vendor work on proving there is a bug and how to repeat it , so it can be reported to engineers. Engineers than have to analyse problem and find cause. Then they devise solution, and test that in house. Once it is solid enough in their internal testing, it gets merged in next release, where it also gets tested as a release. Then it gets released..

Explaining things to you or me is nowhere in that list..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 11, 2020, 02:23:29 pm
I´ll show the steps I take to get a waveform ready for the Awg. Recently I did the same with a recorded wave of a car battery cranking the engine. To test a battery guard circuit I designed, good fun!

First step: it needs to be smaller than sample memory of AWG:
So I limited the samples to 16384, decimating by taking from each 855 samples a minimal and maximal value.
Thus kind of maximizing the noise (important in this case). I've put them also in the right order. That might be important.
Time wise, all the resulting samples will be a bit off (I don't think that will matter much.). The awg can't use timestamps of each sample, its just plays them like a wav-file one sample after another on a set clock speed. From my understanding this can be only be done this way by a true arbitrary wave generator like the SDG1032. A Direct Digital Synthesis generator has a fixed frequency and will skip or duplicate samples.

I did remove quite a few samples from the beginning. In basic wave mode waves will be repeatly played, and a large voltage difference between end and start, would lead to "spikes". In the example wave this wasn't even bad, but I still optimized it a bit.

I will now take those samples and upload them to the AWG. This means finding the min/max values of the complete wave and map them to 16 bit integers.
Because the awg waves can also be played in burst mode, the following: In that mode the waves can be seperated in time by x second, played a certain times and more. It then becomes important where the midpoint of the wave is (int: 0).
For example we could map the lowest voltage 3.30 V to the lowest integer -16384 but then the offset voltage of the burst wave would need be much higher than 3.30V. Thus after each wave playback it would jump to that higher voltage.
If we map the lowest voltage to integer 0, we can take a offset of 3.30V and no sudden jumps shall be made. But with the loss of a bit of resolution. The Awg has a 14 bits dac, relative to the scope that is more than enough.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 11, 2020, 07:54:24 pm
Turns out that at 1ms/div, the standard acquisition rate of a 60Hz signal is just too slow to make it clear whether or not the trigger is firing in that way, with acquisitions happening somewhere between 50ms and 66ms per frame.  In order to ensure consistent acquisition at 16ms per frame (i.e., at the period of the signal itself), I had to drop to 500us per division and 140k points per frame.  With that setup, I get a consistent 16ms per frame even with the mask test enabled, and I'm now running that test.  Should be interesting to see what comes of it.

And of course, at 140k points, the sample rate drops to 20MS/s.  Worse, it seems that even at 140k points, I'm not reliably getting 16ms between captures (the issue *did* reproduce at 140k points, once, and the time difference between the good frame and the bad frame was longer than 16ms, but the problem is that the time difference between some of the good frames was 32ms, and that makes the result inconclusive).  So I've dropped the capture size to 14k points, which drops the capture rate to 2MS/s.  That's low enough that it might not see the noise in the same way.  So far, after a number of hours, the issue has not reproduced itself under these capture conditions.

I'll keep it going, but I'm starting to lose hope as to being able to definitively determine whether the issue is the result of the final condition (passage through 4.5V on the rising edge) firing twice in quick succession, or if the issue is the result of the final condition failing to fire when it should.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 11, 2020, 07:58:18 pm
I uploaded the wave to the awg and had it capture by the scope.

The limited sample memory results in coarse noise, other than that it might be usefull to replicate the bug.

Currently it triggers as it should, but I think it needs some further tweaking. No scopes are the same.

Might have to create a script to automate subtile changes. In that case the script should also be able to differentiate between valid and invalid triggering.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 11, 2020, 10:34:30 pm
Have you looked more long time that if you turn 20MHz BW filter on then it never do this in this test setup or is it so that it do but much more rarely. If it totally stop this fail it is one important finding.

I still haven't run this test for a massively long duration.  If you can give me an idea of how long I should run a 20MHz bandwidth filter test, I'll be happy to do it.  Otherwise I'll presume that running it for, say, 12 hours, is sufficient.

I have one question about the acquisition system.  When I reduce the memory per capture, it drops the sample rate.  That's to be expected: it's having to spread the same amount of time over a smaller number of points with respect to what gets saved.  My question is this: does the ADC actually still run at a full 1GS/s for the triggering mechanism, and then the captured points are decimated to fit into the smaller number of sample points in the buffer?  Or is the ADC actually run at the stated sample rate and, thus, that sample rate is also what the triggering mechanism sees?

It matters, *a lot*.  If the sample rate really is reduced for the triggering mechanism then that could easily cause the issue to disappear if it's somehow time-dependent.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 11, 2020, 10:40:23 pm
Have you looked more long time that if you turn 20MHz BW filter on then it never do this in this test setup or is it so that it do but much more rarely. If it totally stop this fail it is one important finding.

I still haven't run this test for a massively long duration.  If you can give me an idea of how long I should run a 20MHz bandwidth filter test, I'll be happy to do it.  Otherwise I'll presume that running it for, say, 12 hours, is sufficient.

I have one question about the acquisition system.  When I reduce the memory per capture, it drops the sample rate.  That's to be expected: it's having to spread the same amount of time over a smaller number of points with respect to what gets saved.  My question is this: does the ADC actually still run at a full 1GS/s for the triggering mechanism, and then the captured points are decimated to fit into the smaller number of sample points in the buffer?  Or is the ADC actually run at the stated sample rate and, thus, that sample rate is also what the triggering mechanism sees?

It matters, *a lot*.  If the sample rate really is reduced for the triggering mechanism then that could easily cause the issue to disappear if it's somehow time-dependent.
It has been said/confirmed that the trigger system always runs at max speed.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 11, 2020, 11:30:07 pm
It has been said/confirmed that the trigger system always runs at max speed.

Ah, yes, so it has, and not too long ago at that: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg3360130/?topicseen#msg3360130 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg3360130/?topicseen#msg3360130)

Sorry, my scope's memory is clearly better than mine ...

OK, so that raises the obvious question: should there be a difference in the ease of reproducing the issue on the basis of the capture size?   One would think not, given the above.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on December 11, 2020, 11:59:07 pm
It has been said/confirmed that the trigger system always runs at max speed.

Ah, yes, so it has, and not too long ago at that: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg3360130/?topicseen#msg3360130 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg3360130/?topicseen#msg3360130)

Not that this would matter in any other circumstance than discussing a bug in the trigger setup, but a more correct statement would be that the trigger subsystem is always receiving information from the ADC at the full sample rate.

How it chooses to look at that information is another matter.  It occurred to me that in the case of your slope trigger, we typically think of condition 1 as 'arming' the trigger and condition 2 as 'firing' it.  However, the logic could just as well wait for condition 2 and then go back and look at the data in the appropriate period and see if condition 1 was met.  Unless you have the source code you really aren't going to know. 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 12, 2020, 12:43:09 am
In pc programming such trigger system would preferably not be solved by searching in memory. There is no need to, because it is easy to solve single pass.
One could say event driven. Each sample is an event. In the case of the slope trigger the sample can be classified as low, mid or high.
The next thing is to create a "state machine". These consist of different states a system can be in. For the slope it could be:
Start, InLow, InMidpassed, InMid, inHigh
The machine starts with Start. From that it acts on events.
If the first sample is low, there is a state transition to InLow. If the second is low, it stays in there.
If then a mid event is handled, there is a state transition to InMidPassed, meaning it is in mid and the low pass condition is met.
If then a high event is handled, there is a state transition to InHigh, because it is out of InMidPassed we now know there was a slope.
If then a mid event is handled, there is a state transition to InMid, meaning it is in mid without the low pass condition
While handling events some extra data need to saved like time of last sample in low.

But as one can see, no need for searching..

As a statemachine this is a very simple one, it would strange in this situation to go from high to mid and end up in state InMidPassed..

One can also imagine that 2 of those systems can be linked. That one is acting on low-level events, creating high level events for the other. A valid way of creating complex systems - real-time. Actions are taken as fast as possible.

My guess is that the triggering system is such a chain.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 12, 2020, 02:30:52 am
OK, so that raises the obvious question: should there be a difference in the ease of reproducing the issue on the basis of the capture size?   One would think not, given the above.

And the answer is: there *is* a difference in the ease of reproducing on the basis of the capture size.  I am able to reproduce this most easily at 14M points and reasonably easily at 1.4M points.  It is nearly impossible to reproduce at 140k points (I reproduced it only once with that setting), and seems utterly impossible to reproduce at 14k points.

How do I know?  Because when I switch from 140k points to 1.4M or 14M points, I've had the issue reproduce right then and there, more than once.   Nothing of the sort has ever happened going the other direction.

Additionally, the mask display will show the number of frames it saw before failure, and that number grows significantly as the sample size decreases.

This has me scratching my head about what's going on here.  Unless the triggering system is using the number of sample points in some way, I can't explain how the number of sample points could possibly affect the probability of reproduction.   But it does.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ballen on December 12, 2020, 09:37:53 am
It is explained bit more but unfortunately "scrambled by natural enigma". Our "enigma" is our Finnish language what is said is second difficult after Chinese in world. 
In some images there is some english/finglish explanations. But more deep text explanations just with Finnish.
https://siglent.fi/oskilloskooppi-tietoa-sds1004x-e--wfm-speed.html

I am slowly reading through this with help from Google translate.  It's very helpful, thank you for writing it!

PS: there is a typo in the second (all yellow) table shown in Figure 1, in the line with t/div= 1ms.  Column 6 contains 1G sa/s. It should read 1M sa/s.

Typing mistake corrected, thank you.

Something that would be very useful for me would be a block diagram of the scope.  This would help me to construct a good internal model for what it's doing.  Just a page or two back you posted a nice block diagram showing the input front end, the DAC for offsets, the ADC feeding the triggering system, but then it gets less precise.  Is there a more complete block diagram that shows the acquisition/history/sequence/frame system in some detail?

There is not this like of functional "block diagram" what also somehow give imagination what user then see when he is using scope.
Also I miss this kind of block diagram not for me but for perhaps for user guidance and counselling.
What I have is just my own made some kind of teaching "flip chart" material in mind what need also explanations by talking when show these images... but they are as they are now. There is some what give rough imagine about sequence, history  and so on but they only give very rough basic fuzzy imagine what is going on there.

Let me propose a collaboration.  If you provide some sketches for me (any standard software or format is OK) then I will write the text, and share it with you.  You can give me comments to help me correct it, and we can iterate.  After we are both satisfied, we can post it here as a teaching/learning aid for others.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 12, 2020, 09:48:10 am
So I decreased the time per division to 200us.  At 14M points, the issue still reproduces.  The reason I did that is that the processing is fast enough to fairly reliably activate the trigger every 16ms (the period of the full waveform).

What I've found is that when the issue occurs, the time difference between the prior good capture and the bad capture is 22ms.  This timing is very consistent when I have things set up so that it fires reliably every 16ms.

This is interesting because apparently what's happening, then, is that the trigger is somehow not firing on the rising edge, but instead is (when the issue reproduces) firing on the subsequent falling edge at the point it passes through 4.5V.

For instance:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1129626;image)



In fact, interestingly, I've seen a case where it misfired twice in succession, yielding a 22ms delay between the good event and the first bad event, and then 16ms to the next bad event.  Here's the last good capture:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1129614;image)


And the first bad capture:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1129618;image)


And the second bad capture:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1129622;image)


This is obviously very strange, but maybe this will help in getting this problem fixed.

@rf-loop, can you suggest any other tests I should perform aside from the 20MHz bandwidth test?  I'm about to set that one up and leave it running overnight.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 12, 2020, 10:07:26 am
Not related to previous "slope trig fail" things.

Many times I have seen peoples wonder what data trigger engine get when system use low sample rates.

Earlier, I presented some superficial conceptual picture of the principal structure of a system with respect to where the trigger engine is in the system. It is after ADC. It do not use decimated sample rate.

Next two images show one example how it affect in practice. This working mode we can name as SARI. Sequential Acquisitions Random Interleaving. Siglent do not tell anything about it. Example in next image signal 1st harmonic (base) is 1.8 times over fNyquist and it have least over 5 times fNyquist frequency components what are high level.

Of course this example is done for demonstrate what happen there so usually no one use just these settings for just this signal. Also there is CH2 open for nothing... except for drop ADC real samplerate to 500M. Also memory is set small for rise decimation to 10:1 just for better demonstrate this SARI.

Signal is 45MHz "square" but its true risetime is also nearly what can see.  As can see scope display sample rate 50MSa/s.
First image, gif animation, have 16 TFT frames repeating. It looks nearly as scope looks in real but real world it looks bit better.
Display mode is dots. SARI mode need dots mode.
Persistence is turned of for also better imagine situation so that really can see it continuously trig and trig position is right.

Every TFT frame include, least mostly, 16 acquisitions overlaid. Every single acquisition have 7 samples.
Every single acquisition sample interval is constant 20ns naturally but these 7 sample groups are in random time time position.

1st image is this continuously running situation as much as in real word with this setup. Oscilloscope true frame interval is continuous and roughly 40ms.

2nd image. It is one single frame from this 1st image animation.
If you count dots it can see there is 16 sequential acquisition. I have marked one individual acquisition with red circles.

Now if you think The Trigger Engine.
Look one red marked acquisition. It do not look like at all this signal. But it is right positioned. Trig'd, and well.
It need know that even if we have just only one single shot what is this red marked trace (7 dots) it is Trig'd.
But as can see these dots do not meet trigger at all. So, it have trig'd but display do not show reason!!
It is still part of our signal and well match with it... if we get more these well trig'd group of sequential samples we can see they are perfectly trig'd and positioned and show our signal. If you take just one shot it trig but then you look image... no reason, is it false trig... no. It is not.
We are working lot of over fNyquist. And our scope trig. But now carefully. This is not ETS! 
This mode can show signal image if signal is enough continuous just also as in ETS mode. But this SARI works ONLY with decimated samplerates!!!  It still can be good to know and use in some special situations. Of course this do not work at all if you turn interpolation on. Sinc or linear. It just can not. Naturally.

It also demonstrate in practice this fact that Trigger engine in this scope get really other than decimated sample rate.

Look, think carefully, do not loose thinking logic. Keep fun.

(https://siglent.fi/data/examples/sinc/Gif5-Dots(SARI)-45MHz-Square--fNyq-25MHz-decimated-samplefreq-50MHz.gif)
SARI mode. Scope do not have ETS but it have SARI what works something like ETS with decimated sample rates. True frame interval is roughly 40ms "
Sidenote. In this example with this setup wfm/s is very low around 400. Theoretical maximum is over 7000 with this setup with "ideal scope" but of course it do not exist in real world in this time layer.



(https://siglent.fi/data/examples/sinc/Frame-10.gif-In-Gif5-dots(sari)-45MHz.png)
One single frame from upper animation.
One single acquisition marked red in this single frame.

Can you see this red marked one acquisition displayed data that it have something why it is trig'd.
(I repeat, this have nothing to with fail slope trig discussed at same time in this thread, this is just only for demonstrate what it also mean when Trigger engine get true ADC data instead of decimated data.)

Look it, think carefully, do not loose thinking logic. And Keep Fun.

Note, this not "Siglent only". Of course same kind of things are in many modern scopes with digital trigger engine. Not perhaps same but something like this. How it perform - some better - some worse.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 12, 2020, 10:17:25 am
@rf-loop, can you suggest any other tests I should perform aside from the 20MHz bandwidth test?  I'm about to set that one up and leave it running overnight.

Just try to get evidence with this kind of other settings that BW On reject or stop wrong time captures.
Also please test overall can you find any effect using Trigger  Noise Reject ON.  I think previously you tried an no effect. But now you have more experiment with this fail so it is god to ask again.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 12, 2020, 11:47:06 am
OK, so that raises the obvious question: should there be a difference in the ease of reproducing the issue on the basis of the capture size?   One would think not, given the above.

And the answer is: there *is* a difference in the ease of reproducing on the basis of the capture size.  I am able to reproduce this most easily at 14M points and reasonably easily at 1.4M points.  It is nearly impossible to reproduce at 140k points (I reproduced it only once with that setting), and seems utterly impossible to reproduce at 14k points.

How do I know?  Because when I switch from 140k points to 1.4M or 14M points, I've had the issue reproduce right then and there, more than once.   Nothing of the sort has ever happened going the other direction.

Additionally, the mask display will show the number of frames it saw before failure, and that number grows significantly as the sample size decreases.

This has me scratching my head about what's going on here.  Unless the triggering system is using the number of sample points in some way, I can't explain how the number of sample points could possibly affect the probability of reproduction.   But it does.
This is something I've kept in mind as well.
In programming using statemachines could have one drawback, loss of context. (However fetching only a bit of context (timing for instance) can be done easily.)
So it is probable to have one part of the system acts fast, but doesn't keep context. And a second part of the system doing it again (with different logic) but building up context. (Even searching trough memory  :-\)
With the scope one part could for example run on the FPGA, the other on the CPU.
These kind of bugs are harder to reproduce. Absolutely no certainty that this is the case, but we have go by smell anyway.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: thaistatos on December 12, 2020, 12:07:26 pm
Has already someone botherd to exchange the Intensity/Adjust encoder with a detented encoder?

I've been wondering the same thing.  :popcorn:

I have done it right after purchasing bc this non-detent encoder was driving me nuts - pretty weird design decision given that they have detented ones for vertical/horizontal anyway.
In fact, I've even taken the photos to dump here, but I'm a lazy arse so that never happened.  :-[
I can't remember the P/N of the original non-detented one, but it turned out to be some sort of Chinese unobtanium. After searching a bit through what ALPS/Bourns/Omron offer, the closest I was able to find dimension-wise was Bourns PEC12R-4220F-S0024.
To my taste it has a bit too much detent force, otherwise it has been working absolutely fine for the last half year.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

UPD:
I still have the original part, it has no P/N, but LJV embossed on it.

Thank you, that was the information, I was looking for!

I have done such a mod to my 2 other scopes and the only regret was, not doing it in the fist place.

Chris

have you performed the mod?
Are there pictures available?
which parts have to be taken apart? I do not want to ruin my new scope while it is still under guarantee.
Is there a possibility to open it without destroying the siglent label?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 12, 2020, 01:43:33 pm
Yesterday I didn't have time to play.
Just now I started, and wanted to add some offset to the signal, but it couldn't it was maxed out.
So I went to HZ, and without 50 ohm terminator.
Now it very frequently shows the isue, 32 fail / 68 pass.

Using a mask is a good technique :-+, so no need to do it in script.

I'll try to get it up to 100% fails.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 12, 2020, 02:07:20 pm
Tuning with the offset and amplitude, It doesn't go to 100% fail.

It seems that number of passes is about 2x the number of fails. That be very important info, maybe different trig signals (on different time) have an influence on another (software wise). So it could be about "between trigger timings", as mentioned..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 12, 2020, 02:08:43 pm
Your trigger hysteresis is critical. I do not know your signal more but normally this kind of level adjustment is not wise. Of course it goes there below hyst bottom but in practice if natural signal have even some drift in offset it may stop working. Normallu it is wise to keep bit more room for hysteresis window. Just for better practice...

Trigger hysteresis specifications, 0.3div Trigger Noise reject OFF (default) and 0.8div Trigger Noise Reject ON.
If signal do not go under hysteresis bottom level before it break hysteresis top level it do not trig.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1129812;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 12, 2020, 02:50:25 pm
The samples/s don't seem to influence the failure rate in my situation. But then again I don't have random noise, but "engineerd wide width noise".

I upped the low pass a bit.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 12, 2020, 03:08:00 pm
I tried to fetch faillures using 1993 segments, but then they dont' come up. Important info as well..

I will stop experimenting for now and sit on my thinking stone...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 12, 2020, 03:23:40 pm
So when it's displaying waveforms realtime the faillure rate is 30%-50%.
If it is not displaying waveforms realtime it is 0%.

The displaying of wavefroms is cpu stuff. So I still guess there might be 2 separated pieces of logic handling the trigger. The "cpu" one being faulty.

It could also be that the problem is caused by the cpu not being fast enough under certain conditions. There's not much samples/screen but I work remotely.

That might be important info as well.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 12, 2020, 03:38:21 pm
I tried to fetch faillures using 1993 segments, but then they dont' come up. Important info as well..

I will stop experimenting for now and sit on my thinking stone...

It is important finding. I think really importat at this time...


When you use sequence do you know how many it have dropped out.

You can test it perfectly.

Because your signal is made by generator.

Now if you can set it generate example 1000 wfm burst or near what ever number of segments scope is capable with this setting.. Set it generate exactly 1000 wfm burst.
Then set it for manual trig (manual start burst)
Do not start.
Set scope ready for just this sequence acquisition and let it go (start single sequence). Now it waits signal. start your burst.
After done look every 1000 segment is there. If there is not failed trig position as previously and also if it have captured all 1000 you can repeat and repeat it intil it is clear it do not loose any and not fail trig any.
Now you can also do so that sequence come ready after all segments get. Set generator for 100 burst and set sequence for 1000 segments. It come ready when it get all 1000 and in final it stop and display all segments overlaid on screen until you touch your scope settings. From overlaid image you can immediately see if there is any wrong positioned segment.
Of course in these cases scope mode need be for single sequence.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 12, 2020, 05:55:22 pm
I'll next test with burstmode. (Might take a while)
But the first test I'll be doing is spacing the signal. My prediction is that no failures will happen then. I don't think it is primarely about time between trigger signals, but about time between cpu intensive processes. When given enough time for the cpu to display the wave until the next trigger signal comes it won't fail.
That would be my hypothesis.
Why? It doesn't occur when using background acquisition of segment mode. It occur very frequently when using awg signals, so there's maximum pressure on the bug, but It doesn't occur always.
If this can be proven, we're not there yet. It just a condition.  The question then remains why the trigger logic fails, it not randomly showing false trigger positions.
Getting to know more about that new awg signals should be crafted, which are simplified to the max.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 12, 2020, 10:04:20 pm
When the signals are well spaced no failures are detected.

The faillures start at more than 12 waves/s. I know the screenshots says 15 Hz, but the awg does 12 waves/s

When using a wave of 17 ms duration, there is nothing special about 76 ms separation vs less. (Not a complete lapse on a circulair buffer for instance)

My guess would then be that it takes about 76 ms to process the waveform, and during that time it is sensitive to the trigger bug.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 12, 2020, 11:26:52 pm
Just try to get evidence with this kind of other settings that BW On reject or stop wrong time captures.
Also please test overall can you find any effect using Trigger  Noise Reject ON.  I think previously you tried an no effect. But now you have more experiment with this fail so it is god to ask again.

Previously I tried trigger noise reject on and that did have an effect, but it didn't prevent the issue entirely, at least as I recall.

I'm running another test now with trigger noise reject enabled, and we'll see how that works out.

After that, I'll run the 20 MHz bandwidth limiter test (with trigger noise reject disabled).   Last time I tried that, I wasn't able to reproduce the issue, but it's always possible that I didn't give it enough time.  This time I'll give each test something like 12 hours or more.

That said, it looks like HendriXML has managed to reproduce the issue using an AWG signal, and that's really excellent, because it means we can give Siglent a fairly foolproof way to reproduce the issue themselves and, thus, track it down and fix it.

I really hope Siglent takes this seriously (the only reason I might believe they wouldn't is that there is a UI hang bug that I've had extensive discussions with Tautech about, and Siglent confirmed they were able to reproduce it.  And yet, quite some time after that, they still haven't released a firmware upgrade with the fix to it).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 12, 2020, 11:31:47 pm
I'm done with experimenting because I'm confident enough about the fehler deutung / bug interpretation.

When the FPGA is processing ADC values it keeps track of when the low and high values are passed. Maybe in a certain way with hysteresis and right slope. The last passage (time position) is stored in a register.
When a trigger condition has been met,  it send a notification to the cpu. (Interrupt) . The cpu process must read the register as soon as possible, because if its too late, (because cpu was busy) that register can be overwritten with another pass. Not satisfying full trigger criteria, but satisfying a pass. This is than falsely seen as the trigger "time position".
I think this also might be the reason to have a hysteresis in the first place. Otherwise because of noise there could be many passes, before the Interrupt was handled.
Btw is can also be that the FPGA doesn't care about triggers at all, only about predefined passes. And that each pass is an interrupt on its own. This is a way of low level vs high level events I spoke off some posts before.
When using scpi triggerlevels and slope are attributes of a channel. This might explain why. (Not "grouped" by usage, but grouped by underlying technology)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 13, 2020, 12:11:12 am
The following could also be observed:
Without using pass/fail masks, but with infinite persistence failures can also be seen. But the time between waves can be much shorter (like 30 ms). The reason for this might be that managing masks is more cpu intensive.
Also: the valid trigger condition and the invalid one don't need to be both on screen simultaneously.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 13, 2020, 12:32:16 am
That said, it looks like HendriXML has managed to reproduce the issue using an AWG signal, and that's really excellent, because it means we can give Siglent a fairly foolproof way to reproduce the issue themselves and, thus, track it down and fix it.
My guess would be that they already know of it.
The problem in the bug interpretation I gave is that it is impossible to transfer any data at the exact moment the interrupt fires. And the FPGA may not be halted. So no foolproof synchronization is possible.  There is always a time window in which things can already be changed.
I must say the tested time window (between two high passes) is massively large..
Are interrupts delayed too long, or do they wait too long to read registers that might change?
It is also not a real-time operating system isn't it? (Linux?) So maybe they have not even full control over it. (A specific device driver should be used then? Reading registers of the FPGA asap)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 13, 2020, 01:08:05 am
Btw the FPGA is not allowed to be halted (a way of ensuring foolproof synchronization), but the register could have "a do not overwrite" status before triggering the cpu.
That status should then be cleared by the cpu. It should even be possible have that status reset on a read from the cpu. (A bit like a destructive read)
It could use a fifobuffer/queue.

I don't know whats possible within a FPGA, but that is not too much to be requesting of it?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 13, 2020, 04:19:06 am
The following could also be observed:
Without using pass/fail masks, but with infinite persistence failures can also be seen. But the time between waves can be much shorter (like 30 ms). The reason for this might be that managing masks is more cpu intensive.
Also: the valid trigger condition and the invalid one don't need to be both on screen simultaneously.

As far as I know, and I know least "some things".
SDS1000X-E have as they call it "hardware based" mask test. You can also make mask using computer but it is bit tricky because there is not nice mask editor tool for it and you need first find how it works. I have made these long time ago using hexedit for some previous models. I have some kind of documents even in some deep storage what I do not have here.
Also it produce full speed Pass/Fail output (same BNC what have trig out). It is not like some toys.
When normally run mask test it do not reduce wfm/s speed what is without mask test with current settings.
(if things have not changed (FW/HW) after I have made lot of performance tests when SDS1000X-E model was quite young. )
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 13, 2020, 06:33:18 am
The issue *does* reproduce with trigger noise rejection enabled, but it takes quite a bit longer.  In this case, it took 45452 mask tests before it reproduced, with an average trigger rate of 24 Hz or less:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1130538;image)

Here's the data for it (a 7-zip archive with the CSV, the binary, the setup XML, and the above screenshot): https://app.box.com/s/5zmf6xr4t8xypjjmqmw46oj574r6sab3 (https://app.box.com/s/5zmf6xr4t8xypjjmqmw46oj574r6sab3)

With respect to theories like interrupt handling and such, the plain fact here is that the amount of time between events is orders of magnitude longer than what the triggering system is capable of handling.  We're talking about a 60 Hz waveform here!   If there's a problem with the CPU getting around to handling the trigger conditions fast enough with a 60 Hz waveform, then we'd have every reason to believe that the trigger system would simply fall over with MHz-frequency waveforms.  No, I don't think that's likely at all.  And that's especially true since this issue reproduces even with trigger noise rejection enabled.

Instead, I'm pretty sure what we're up against here is either a race condition or a failure to properly and consistently impose the trigger conditions.  But only the guys at Siglent can truly say.


I'm now in the process of running the test with the 20MHz bandwidth filter enabled on the channel.  I'll give it at least 12 hours to reproduce.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 13, 2020, 09:15:04 am
The issue *does* reproduce with trigger noise rejection enabled, but it takes quite a bit longer.  In this case, it took 45452 mask tests before it reproduced, with an average trigger rate of 24 Hz or less:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1130538;image)

Here's the data for it (a 7-zip archive with the CSV, the binary, the setup XML, and the above screenshot): https://app.box.com/s/5zmf6xr4t8xypjjmqmw46oj574r6sab3 (https://app.box.com/s/5zmf6xr4t8xypjjmqmw46oj574r6sab3)

With respect to theories like interrupt handling and such, the plain fact here is that the amount of time between events is orders of magnitude longer than what the triggering system is capable of handling.  We're talking about a 60 Hz waveform here!   If there's a problem with the CPU getting around to handling the trigger conditions fast enough with a 60 Hz waveform, then we'd have every reason to believe that the trigger system would simply fall over with MHz-frequency waveforms.  No, I don't think that's likely at all.  And that's especially true since this issue reproduces even with trigger noise rejection enabled.

Instead, I'm pretty sure what we're up against here is either a race condition or a failure to properly and consistently impose the trigger conditions.  But only the guys at Siglent can truly say.


I'm now in the process of running the test with the 20MHz bandwidth filter enabled on the channel.  I'll give it at least 12 hours to reproduce.

Even when this is not reason but... as can see making tests is complex. When you change hysteresis you need also care that your signal  trigger thresholds have enough room for work robust even when small offset drift.. Hysteresis is 0.8 div when NR is ON. I have looked your previous images and your signal bottom is very close this 3.5 - 0.8V.
Small thing but it is good practice to care all settings are compatible when change something.
But overall, good findings.  Hope later we know how BW affect.

Least I thing 0.8V hysteresis is bit too borderline.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1124744;image)

Then there are these peaks. These must not affect but fun peaks still... in interesting position.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1130584;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 13, 2020, 09:44:57 am
With respect to theories like interrupt handling and such, the plain fact here is that the amount of time between events is orders of magnitude longer than what the triggering system is capable of handling.  We're talking about a 60 Hz waveform here!   If there's a problem with the CPU getting around to handling the trigger conditions fast enough with a 60 Hz waveform, then we'd have every reason to believe that the trigger system would simply fall over with MHz-frequency waveforms.  No, I don't think that's likely at all.  And that's especially true since this issue reproduces even with trigger noise rejection enabled.
We could create a signal as the one I sketched. Which may give an insight what happens when times are less. (It should not be about period, but time between high passes)

I think the basis of the problem is what I have described. That it doesn't happen on other signals might be due to (unknown) methods to prevent this from normally happening (stuff like hysteresis and ..). But this one slides trough anyhow.
At this time one would normally stop spending time looking at the blackbox (not for all of us), but open it and look inside.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 13, 2020, 09:54:55 am

I think the basis of the problem is what I have described. That it doesn't happen on other signals might be due to (unknown) methods to prevent this from normally happening (stuff like hysteresis and ..).
What about some holdoff time.. ensured by the FPGA?
It is a bit like having a brid shit falling on your head. What were the chances that that would happen on that exact moment and place? Very slim, but when it happens you know a bird did it.  :D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on December 13, 2020, 11:31:55 am
Just a comment, to me that time interval looks awfully close to limit..
I'm not sure signal climbed those two voltages in 1,2-1,4 ms, it could be less than 1,2ms..
Maybe vary that a bit to find out if that influences something to try to find more clues....

Also I find it confusing that L1 is higher than L2 (maybe better naming would be UL-upper limit and LL-lower limit)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 13, 2020, 12:01:08 pm
Just a comment, to me that time interval looks awfully close to limit..
I'm not sure signal climbed those two voltages in 1,2-1,4 ms, it could be less than 1,2ms..
Maybe vary that a bit to find out if that influences something to try to find more clues....

Also I find it confusing that L1 is higher than L2 (maybe better naming would be UL-upper limit and LL-lower limit)

Have you read everything said in « Reply #1772 on: December 07, 2020, 07:34:46 am » and after it all what handle this trigger engine bug.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on December 13, 2020, 12:09:16 pm
Just a comment, to me that time interval looks awfully close to limit..
I'm not sure signal climbed those two voltages in 1,2-1,4 ms, it could be less than 1,2ms..
Maybe vary that a bit to find out if that influences something to try to find more clues....

Also I find it confusing that L1 is higher than L2 (maybe better naming would be UL-upper limit and LL-lower limit)

Have you read everything said in « Reply #1772 on: December 07, 2020, 07:34:46 am » and after it all what handle this trigger engine bug.

No. I'm afraid I didn't. I just made a comment to this image...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1124744;image)
I do understand there is a problem, I'm just saying that playing with time limits might reveal something else.

L1 and L2 comment is my comment to Siglent's choice in U/I naming.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 13, 2020, 12:24:51 pm
Just a comment, to me that time interval looks awfully close to limit..
I'm not sure signal climbed those two voltages in 1,2-1,4 ms, it could be less than 1,2ms..
Maybe vary that a bit to find out if that influences something to try to find more clues....

Also I find it confusing that L1 is higher than L2 (maybe better naming would be UL-upper limit and LL-lower limit)


Have you read everything said in « Reply #1772 on: December 07, 2020, 07:34:46 am » and after it all what handle this trigger engine bug.

No. I'm afraid I didn't. I just made a comment to this image...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1124744;image)
I do understand there is a problem, I'm just saying that playing with time limits might reveal something else.

L1 and L2 comment is my comment to Siglent's choice in U/I naming.

Afaik these limits have also tried change and what looks like do not affect.
Yes it is tight limit as I also tell in my earlier msg.

- - - - - - - - -

Imho, L1 and L2. I look these just opposite, very logical.

Number one is... who is top.

Not so seriously but...  ;)
See the book index. Page 1 is at the top. See the results list of the running competitions. 1 is at the top. When prizes for competitions are awarded. 1 stands at the top. And so on.
That numbering is also culture and language independent. UL and LL are perhaps something extremely fun in some place ..

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 13, 2020, 08:01:34 pm
13 hours and 480000 mask test frames later, the issue still hasn't reproduced with the 20 MHz bandwidth limiter enabled on the channel.  I'll be happy to keep it going for another 12 hours, but it's certainly looking like the 20MHz bandwidth limiter eliminates the issue in my environment.  But that's in my environment.  It may be that noise at a lower frequency than 20 MHz would just as easily trigger the bug.  On that, I can't say.  But it would be an interesting test for HendriXML to perform with his setup, seeing how he's able to reproduce the issue more or less at will with an artificially-generated signal.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 14, 2020, 12:52:35 am
I've made an arbitrary wave much like __2.png

This wave gives a lot of failures as well. I've tried different frequencys (with corresponding slope times) like 1 Hz, 50 Hz, and 1 Khz.

All fail.

BW limit on gives also failures, but that is expected (no noise, but an engineerd signal). Didn't try it on all frequencies.

I observed how far the trigger timings was off, this varies between square waves at the begining until a few divs further. At 50 Hz and 1 Khz this is fast switching but looks the same. I must say I would have expected the high freqencies to go further (maybe I should have been more subtle in the increase. Will have a test at 100 Hz.)
1 Hz goes to slow to see patterns in how the trigger location shifts.

The 50 Hz pattern is sometimes animated: a fraction of second no failiures  and then 1/10 div, 2/10 div .. 2 div (very rapidly)
Each time the trigger is further in the wave, and then no faillure for a fraction of a sec and then it starts again.

Here the timebased element (other than the signal) is clearly visible.

The next session I'll experiment with time separation again, maybe some info can be extracted from looking at the patterns.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 14, 2020, 02:28:25 am
13 hours and 480000 mask test frames later, the issue still hasn't reproduced with the 20 MHz bandwidth limiter enabled on the channel.  I'll be happy to keep it going for another 12 hours, but it's certainly looking like the 20MHz bandwidth limiter eliminates the issue in my environment.  But that's in my environment.  It may be that noise at a lower frequency than 20 MHz would just as easily trigger the bug.  On that, I can't say.  But it would be an interesting test for HendriXML to perform with his setup, seeing how he's able to reproduce the issue more or less at will with an artificially-generated signal.

This is good finding.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 14, 2020, 05:07:24 am
21 hours and 800000 mask frames, and the issue still doesn't reproduce with the 20 MHz bandwidth filter enabled.  I'm going to call it at this point, and say that in my environment and with this signal, the issue does not occur with the 20 MHz bandwidth filter enabled.

And little wonder: the strongest noise in the signal is at 25MHz:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1131586;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1131590;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: masterx81 on December 14, 2020, 08:47:49 pm
Sorry for the question. Today is arrived this little baby (1104x-e), and i'm trying to zoom at maximum possible the second rising edge after the trigger of a 1khz signal (jitter analysis). But seem that there is a limit how far the screen can be from the trigger point, limit at 500us. I'm doing something wrong, or there is a better way to do it? Thanks!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 14, 2020, 09:22:09 pm
Sorry for the question. Today is arrived this little baby (1104x-e), and i'm trying to zoom at maximum possible the second rising edge after the trigger of a 1khz signal (jitter analysis). But seem that there is a limit how far the screen can be from the trigger point, limit at 500us. I'm doing something wrong, or there is a better way to do it? Thanks!

The nature of how the Siglent does captures is that what you see on the screen is the entire capture.  So what you may want to do is to set your timebase such that at least two rising edges are visible, and then zoom in on the second one after you stop the scope.  Or you can use zoom mode while the scope is running (see below).

That said, you can actually set the trigger point location to be outside of the capture area.  If you rotate the horizontal position knob counterclockwise, you'll be positioning the trigger point earlier in the capture, and you can actually position it to well before the point where the screen begins.  So that would make it possible for you to see the second rising edge while triggering on the first rising edge.  Note that this would work best when the trigger is set up such that it would trigger on the first rising edge but not the second one, something that you can arrange using the holdoff feature of the edge trigger.

Also, the scope has a "zoom mode".  Press the horizontal scale button and it'll switch to zoom mode.  This makes it possible for you to capture both rising edges and zoom in on the second one while the scope is running.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 14, 2020, 10:08:43 pm
Tautech and/or rf-loop, why isn't trigger holdoff available for all trigger types?  That seems to be something that should be a general property of the triggering system itself, rather than being something that is type-specific, no?  After all, it's just an artificial delay that is introduced prior to the trigger being re-armed.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 14, 2020, 10:23:24 pm
Tautech and/or rf-loop, why isn't trigger holdoff available for all trigger types?  That seems to be something that should be a general property of the triggering system itself, rather than being something that is type-specific, no?  After all, it's just an artificial delay that is introduced prior to the trigger being re-armed.
Artificial yes and a necessary tool when dealing with non-repetitive waveforms where you need to have full control of trigger rearming so to be able to reliably trigger on your POI.
Holdoff is just not needed on all trigger types however without detailed analysis of each trigger type they may have their own specific holdoff value.

Arguably in the modern DSO the trigger suite is the most complex feature and certainly the feature that takes the most mastering when we depart from just simple edge triggering.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: masterx81 on December 14, 2020, 10:49:02 pm
The nature of how the Siglent does captures is that what you see on the screen is the entire capture.  So what you may want to do is to set your timebase such that at least two rising edges are visible, and then zoom in on the second one after you stop the scope.  Or you can use zoom mode while the scope is running (see below).

That said, you can actually set the trigger point location to be outside of the capture area.  If you rotate the horizontal position knob counterclockwise, you'll be positioning the trigger point earlier in the capture, and you can actually position it to well before the point where the screen begins.  So that would make it possible for you to see the second rising edge while triggering on the first rising edge.  Note that this would work best when the trigger is set up such that it would trigger on the first rising edge but not the second one, something that you can arrange using the holdoff feature of the edge trigger.

Also, the scope has a "zoom mode".  Press the horizontal scale button and it'll switch to zoom mode.  This makes it possible for you to capture both rising edges and zoom in on the second one while the scope is running.
Thanks! I've centered the second rising edge, zoomed and worked like a charm!
One more little question: there isn't also a vertical zoom?trying to increase the vertical gain obviously i get a distorted wave due to clipping of the input opamps...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 14, 2020, 11:52:34 pm
I've created a script that advances trough wave forms of different frequencies (E12, 10 Hz - 1 Khz) and matching trigger hold times and horizontal timebasis.

They all have a different failure rate, but the posted one is very high. I dear to say it is the highest that can be managed. For every good capture, a bad one.

330 Hz
Slope time: 378,79 μs
Slope time range low: 340,90 μs
Slope time range high: 454,54 μs

The timings are quite tight 0.9 * Slope time .. 1.2 * Slope time

On other waves I can see that on wider timings more "non first high passes" are at the trigger location. However they then match the time window.

This is important info. I don't now how it supposed to function but, to me it seems that first the "fastest" slope should be determined (thus last low pass, first high pass) and then it should check the time against the time window.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on December 15, 2020, 12:07:57 am
Btw. 33 Hz (10x less) gave very few failures. (I've seen only one)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 15, 2020, 02:12:05 am
Tautech and/or rf-loop, why isn't trigger holdoff available for all trigger types?  That seems to be something that should be a general property of the triggering system itself, rather than being something that is type-specific, no?  After all, it's just an artificial delay that is introduced prior to the trigger being re-armed.
Artificial yes and a necessary tool when dealing with non-repetitive waveforms where you need to have full control of trigger rearming so to be able to reliably trigger on your POI.
Holdoff is just not needed on all trigger types however without detailed analysis of each trigger type they may have their own specific holdoff value.

Arguably in the modern DSO the trigger suite is the most complex feature and certainly the feature that takes the most mastering when we depart from just simple edge triggering.

I'm not sure I buy this as an explanation.  The trigger conditions, i.e. when it fires, are obviously highly dependent on the trigger type and involve multiple considerations.  But that is completely separate from an additional delay that can be imposed.  The additional delay is what I'm talking about here, and I see no reason whatsoever that it can't be imposed in all trigger types.  After all, all it says is "the trigger shall not fire again until after the specified delay time has passed".

Who's to say whether a delay is needed or not?  The answer to that is simple: the user.  And only the user.   The manufacturer is in no position to make any such claim, because the manufacturer simply cannot know the entirety of circumstances in which the trigger will be used.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 15, 2020, 02:21:48 am
Tautech and/or rf-loop, why isn't trigger holdoff available for all trigger types?  That seems to be something that should be a general property of the triggering system itself, rather than being something that is type-specific, no?  After all, it's just an artificial delay that is introduced prior to the trigger being re-armed.
Artificial yes and a necessary tool when dealing with non-repetitive waveforms where you need to have full control of trigger rearming so to be able to reliably trigger on your POI.
Holdoff is just not needed on all trigger types however without detailed analysis of each trigger type they may have their own specific holdoff value.

Arguably in the modern DSO the trigger suite is the most complex feature and certainly the feature that takes the most mastering when we depart from just simple edge triggering.

I'm not sure I buy this as an explanation.  The trigger conditions, i.e. when it fires, are obviously highly dependent on the trigger type and involve multiple considerations.  But that is completely separate from an additional delay that can be imposed.  The additional delay is what I'm talking about here, and I see no reason whatsoever that it can't be imposed in all trigger types.  After all, all it says is "the trigger shall not fire again until after the specified delay time has passed".

Who's to say whether a delay is needed or not?  The answer to that is simple: the user.  And only the user.   The manufacturer is in no position to make any such claim, because the manufacturer simply cannot know the entirety of circumstances in which the trigger will be used.
Say for example we need trigger on one bit and as that bit is just one trigger parameter that's user adjustable within that trigger type would be a good example of when trigger holdoff is not required otherwise I broadly agree the user must have the control and not the instrument.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 15, 2020, 02:22:17 am
Thanks! I've centered the second rising edge, zoomed and worked like a charm!
One more little question: there isn't also a vertical zoom?trying to increase the vertical gain obviously i get a distorted wave due to clipping of the input opamps...

You'll get clipping if you increase the vertical gain while the scope is operating, but when the scope is stopped, the vertical zoom just acts as a standard zoom.  So try stopping the scope first and then zoom in using the vertical scale knob.

The scope converter only has so much resolution, however, so what you really want to do is to set the vertical settings so that the waveform fills as much of the screen as you can manage.  This will ensure that the opamps remain unsaturated while also ensuring that you have maximum use of the ADC resolution.  You can then zoom in from there with the scope stopped.   There may be limitations in terms of what you can do with respect to zooming in like that, but from what I've seen, you'll easily be able to zoom in vertically to the point where you can make out the individual value transitions within the number of bits per sample recorded.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 15, 2020, 02:28:20 am
Say for example we need trigger on one bit and as that bit is just one trigger parameter that's user adjustable within that trigger type would be a good example of when trigger holdoff is not required otherwise I broadly agree the user must have the control and not the instrument.

Well, to be clear, I'm referring to holdoff as strictly being with respect to the complete trigger itself.  The trigger either fires or it doesn't.  When it fires, and how long you give it before it can fire again, is all that matters with respect to the the holdoff.

Certainly, there are going to be subconditions that may have their own individual delay specifications, but that's an entirely different thing from what I'm talking about.

A perfect example here is the slope trigger type.  Why in the world isn't there a holdoff available for it?   I can think of no good reason whatsoever for that.  And the same goes for every other trigger type we have, including the serial decoding trigger types.   There are going to be situations in which you know for a fact that you'll want to wait at least some amount of time before the trigger fires again, and I can't think of any trigger type that is even theoretically an exception to that.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 15, 2020, 04:35:43 am
Got another question.

I noticed that in roll mode, the sample memory is cut by a factor of 10.  Why is that?  A factor of 10 seems excessive.  What's the rest of the memory being used for?  Certainly not history -- that's disabled in roll mode.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 15, 2020, 07:49:08 am
Got another question.

I noticed that in roll mode, the sample memory is cut by a factor of 10.  Why is that?  A factor of 10 seems excessive.  What's the rest of the memory being used for?  Certainly not history -- that's disabled in roll mode.
IDK for dedicated Roll mode however if max mem depth is what you need in Roll mode you're best to use Auto Roll mode where the full 14 Mpts is available.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 15, 2020, 08:49:15 am
Got another question.

I noticed that in roll mode, the sample memory is cut by a factor of 10.  Why is that?  A factor of 10 seems excessive.  What's the rest of the memory being used for?  Certainly not history -- that's disabled in roll mode.
IDK for dedicated Roll mode however if max mem depth is what you need in Roll mode you're best to use Auto Roll mode where the full 14 Mpts is available.

I see no mention of auto roll mode anywhere in the manual, nor any mention of a setting that would control that.  How does one enter it?   Merely increasing the time/div doesn't seem to do it on its own.  I could swear there's a setting that controls this but I can't for the life of me find it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: masterx81 on December 15, 2020, 09:02:40 am
You'll get clipping if you increase the vertical gain while the scope is operating, but when the scope is stopped, the vertical zoom just acts as a standard zoom.  So try stopping the scope first and then zoom in using the vertical scale knob.

The scope converter only has so much resolution, however, so what you really want to do is to set the vertical settings so that the waveform fills as much of the screen as you can manage.  This will ensure that the opamps remain unsaturated while also ensuring that you have maximum use of the ADC resolution.  You can then zoom in from there with the scope stopped.   There may be limitations in terms of what you can do with respect to zooming in like that, but from what I've seen, you'll easily be able to zoom in vertically to the point where you can make out the individual value transitions within the number of bits per sample recorded.
Thanks! So i suppose that there isn't a way to zoom with the scope running...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 15, 2020, 09:38:15 am
Quote from: kcbrown

Got another question.

I noticed that in roll mode, the sample memory is cut by a factor of 10.  Why is that?  A factor of 10 seems excessive.  What's the rest of the memory being used for?  Certainly not history -- that's disabled in roll mode.

Quote from: kcbrown
I see no mention of auto roll mode anywhere in the manual, nor any mention of a setting that would control that.  How does one enter it?   Merely increasing the time/div doesn't seem to do it on its own.  I could swear there's a setting that controls this but I can't for the life of me find it.

AFAIK, Roll mode can use with time scales 50ms/div - 100s/div and in Roll mode max memory is 1.4M (2x1.4M)
No trigger. It just roll like paper roll plotter. Its memory lenghth is 1.4Mpts. with 50ms/div it have its maximum samplerate what is 2MSa/s. This is also noted in Performa01 deep review and looks like these is still peoples who have not read these nearly 200 pages information. What ever question have read it first and if answer can not find there directly or indirectly...
 Peak detect is available also in roll mode of course. Average and ERES not.
New samples are plotted to display horizontal border and old samples are pushed like FIFO.
It is its limits, like or not. It is made that way. Period.
(Disclaimer, I have not used latest firmwares but I do not believe this thing change, it do not sell any more if it change. ;) )


If need more memory and samplerate using 50ms/div - 100s/div then just do not use ROLL mode. Normal acquisition with Auto trig or Normal or Single shot. Max memory is then 14M with 2 channels on and with 50ms/div max samplerate naturally 20MSa/s.  Of course in then can live with les samplerate but need more history then just reduce memory length.
With 7k memory 2 channel in 1 group open, 100s/div it have 5 sample/s and it can save up to  3912 these 1400 second acquisitions sequentially. 5476800s data (63 days) plus (sadly too big) time cap between single acquisitions.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 15, 2020, 09:51:33 am
AFAIK, Roll mode can use with time scales 50ms/div - 100s/div and in Roll mode max memory is 1.4M (2x1.4M)
No trigger. It just roll like paper roll plotter. Its memory lenghth is 1.4Mpts. with 50ms/div it have its maximum samplerate what is 2MSa/s. Peak detect is available also in roll mode of course. Average and ERES not.
New samples are plotted to display horizontal border and old samples are pushed like FIFO.
It is its limits, like or not. It is made that way. Period.
(Disclaimer, I have not used latest firmwares but I do not believe this thing change, it do not sell any more if it change. ;) )

I'm using the latest firmware, and it does behave like this.

Well, it is what it is.  I'd love to know why it's limited in this respect because it leaves a big pile of memory on the table.  But only the Siglent engineers can really say, I guess.  It just seems odd to leave that amount of sample memory (12.6M points!) on the table when you presumably don't really have to.

Thanks for confirming that.


Quote
If need more memory and samplerate using 50ms/div - 100s/div then just do not use ROLL mode. Normal acquisition with Auto trig or Normal or Single shot. Max memory is then 14M with 2 channels on and with 50ms/div max samplerate naturally 20MSa/s.  Of course in then can live with less samplerate but need more history then just reduce memory lenght.
With 7k memory 2 channel in 1 group open, 100s/div it have 5 sample/s and it can save up to  3912 these 1400 second acquisitions sequentially. 5476800s data (63 days) plus (sadly too big) time cap between single acquisitions.

Right, I realize that you can basically get what amounts to nearly arbitrarily long (in time) captures in normal mode (not quite arbitrarily long, but 63 days total is pretty hard to argue against!).  Roll mode has the distinct advantage that you can see it in progress.  And it looks cool.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 15, 2020, 07:39:02 pm
Thanks! So i suppose that there isn't a way to zoom with the scope running...

Without running afoul of the possibility of opamp saturation and other such issues?  No, not to my knowledge.  And that's because the knob controls both the interpretation of the ADC output for display purposes and the signal gain.  Which is almost always exactly what you want, really, because the purpose isn't just to show a different part of the waveform, but to show that part with as much resolution as the scope can bring to bear.   The latter requires changing the amplifier gain and offset so that what gets fed to the ADC meets its input requirements in such a way that its output has maximum resolution over the voltage range that would be visible on the display at that setting.

For instance, let's say that you've got the scope set up to display 4.0V to 4.8V, at 0.1V/div.  That means that the voltage fed to the ADC would have to be shifted so that 4.0V on the scope input would wind up being 0V at the ADC, and 4.8V on the scope input would wind up being whatever voltage the ADC would translate to its maximum converted value.   If the input voltage range of the ADC is 0V to 1V, then after subtracting 4.0V from the input, the remaining signal would have to be amplified via a gain of (1.0V/0.8V = 1.25). 

The above is, of course, a significant oversimplification (in reality, things seem to be arranged so that some of the waveform can extend beyond the screen edges, and there are likely many other considerations on top of that), and there are probably papers that rf-loop and others here can point at which would describe in detail the process that modern DSOs use to translate an incoming signal to something on the screen, but it should at least answer the question of why your vertical settings matter for things like the internal signal amplification.

You can see this in action by significantly decreasing the V/div so that the waveform in full extends well above and below the edges of the screen, then stop the scope, and then increase V/div.  There will be a bit of waveform that extended past the edges of the screen, but not terribly much.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 16, 2020, 02:13:14 am
Sigh.

Has anyone managed to get i2c triggering on 7-bit addresses working?  Triggering on message start works. 

With respect to triggering on 7 bit address + value:

* It works when I set everything to "don't care".
* It works when I set a data value that's present
* It works when I set the read/write attribute to match what's present (and it won't trigger if I get this wrong, which is good)
* It works with combinations of data value and read/write that actually match what's present
* It does *not* work with any combination where I set the address, at least with the signal that I'm using (an Arduino's output to an i2c display), even when the address value I set matches what the decoder consistently shows.

I've already tried things like using the 20 MHz bandwidth filter on the probes.  It makes no difference.  And frankly, if the decoder can find the address, why can't the triggering mechanism do the same?

What data would you guys like for diagnosis of this?

Here's proof that the address I'm having it search for is present in the signal:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1132828;image)

And here's what happens when I set the trigger to use that address and hit "single" or "normal":

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1132832;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on December 16, 2020, 08:00:34 am
Sigh.

Has anyone managed to get i2c triggering on 7-bit addresses working?  Triggering on message start works. 

With respect to triggering on 7 bit address + value:

* It works when I set everything to "don't care".
* It works when I set a data value that's present
* It works when I set the read/write attribute to match what's present (and it won't trigger if I get this wrong, which is good)
* It works with combinations of data value and read/write that actually match what's present
* It does *not* work with any combination where I set the address, at least with the signal that I'm using (an Arduino's output to an i2c display), even when the address value I set matches what the decoder consistently shows.

I've already tried things like using the 20 MHz bandwidth filter on the probes.  It makes no difference.  And frankly, if the decoder can find the address, why can't the triggering mechanism do the same?

What data would you guys like for diagnosis of this?

Here's proof that the address I'm having it search for is present in the signal:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1132828;image)

And here's what happens when I set the trigger to use that address and hit "single" or "normal":

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1132832;image)

I would like to just add: There should be ( on any scope that does decode/trigger from serial protocols ) a button "copy this decoded frame to trigger".
You look around the list, find interesting packet , select and copy it to trigger.... That would be huuge timesaver...
Sorry for the tangent...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 16, 2020, 08:12:25 am
I would like to just add: There should be ( on any scope that does decode/trigger from serial protocols ) a button "copy this decoded frame to trigger".
You look around the list, find interesting packet , select and copy it to trigger.... That would be huuge timesaver...
Sorry for the tangent...

No worries, that's a great idea!   Here's hoping Siglent will consider it.

Of course, it'll be even better in conjunction with a trigger mechanism that works completely correctly.    ;D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: thaistatos on December 16, 2020, 08:16:39 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Nsuqanf2_k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Nsuqanf2_k)

Quote
With SDS1202X-E firmware revision 1.3.23 (or 7.0.1.3.23 seen on scope 'system' screen), the 'Link to Trigger' button on the DECODE page 2 has been changed to 'Copy Setting.'  This adds the ability to not only link the DECODE to the trigger ('Copy To Trig'), but to link the trigger to the DECODE (Copy From Trig).  Both options are on a submenu of 'Copy Setting.'

Does this help?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on December 16, 2020, 08:33:54 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Nsuqanf2_k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Nsuqanf2_k)

Quote
With SDS1202X-E firmware revision 1.3.23 (or 7.0.1.3.23 seen on scope 'system' screen), the 'Link to Trigger' button on the DECODE page 2 has been changed to 'Copy Setting.'  This adds the ability to not only link the DECODE to the trigger ('Copy To Trig'), but to link the trigger to the DECODE (Copy From Trig).  Both options are on a submenu of 'Copy Setting.'

Does this help?

As far as I know that copies only setting (levels, channels etc). It won't copy address/data of the packet, would it?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 16, 2020, 11:01:25 pm
Just in case the issue was with the signal and not with the trigger, I tested the address trigger problem with the digital channels.  I get the same result.  Triggering on i2c 7-bit addresses simply does not work at all.

Can someone here replicate this issue?  Seeing how i2c is a multi-address bus, it seems like a significant problem for address triggering to not work at all.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 17, 2020, 08:46:26 am
Aha!   Figured it out.

It wasn't a problem with the trigger, it was a problem with the decoder!

The actual address on the bus is 0x27, not 0x4e.

I reset the scope (hard powered it off and let it boot back up) and set things back up, and now it's working properly.  And so is the decoder.

I don't know why there was that discrepancy, but things like this can happen.

Anyway, please disregard the previous, unless you'd like me to supply the raw data (which I saved) so you can see it for yourself.  I guess next time I'm going to have to examine the signal properties myself to see if the decoder is doing things right.

Sorry for the false alarm.   :(


I suppose the moral of the story is: if you think you've found a bug in the scope, the first thing you should do is reboot the thing.  A soft shutdown and startup probably won't do the trick for that.  In this case, I pushed the power button until it turned off "hard" (works the same as it does on laptops), and then powered it back up.  The scope came back up in its default state, after which I configured it from scratch, and that pretty much took care of the problem.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on December 17, 2020, 11:01:08 am
Good to hear it's OK now, and nice of you for reporting it back...
I usually say that user error is best type of problem, because it's easiest to solve...
It's always best for everybody, including the source of error... :-DD
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 17, 2020, 06:12:58 pm
Good to hear it's OK now, and nice of you for reporting it back...
I usually say that user error is best type of problem, because it's easiest to solve...
It's always best for everybody, including the source of error... :-DD

Yep.

Now, in my defense, I don't believe this to be pure user error, because I was getting exactly the same thing on the digital channels, and the trigger will not fire at all if you have the channels reversed.  In this case, the trigger would fire if the address was set to "don't care".  It's just that the address seen by the decoder (0x4e) was clearly not the address that would allow the trigger to fire.  As such, this clearly wasn't a case of doing something dumb like reversing the leads.  Nor does the signal look any different now, with it working, than it did when it wasn't working, at least that I can tell through inspection.

And you can see in the screenshots that the decoder clearly showed the address as 4e.

It would be one thing if the digital channels showed something different from the analog channels, but they showed the exact same thing.

Fortunately, a hard reboot of the scope took care of the issue.  I tend to leave electronic equipment like my computers, and like this scope, running continuously.  This tends to result in "bit rot" bugs showing themselves in one way or another.   This seems to have been an instance of that.

Anyway, all's well that ends well.  It'll be interesting to see if this issue resurfaces.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2112 on December 22, 2020, 01:00:01 am
Is there a best USB memory stick size for storing data? Has anyone experienced issues with one too large, say 2T? Would I be better off getting a 32G? Are there particular brands or sizes to avoid?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 22, 2020, 02:14:07 am
Is there a best USB memory stick size for storing data? Has anyone experienced issues with one too large, say 2T? Would I be better off getting a 32G? Are there particular brands or sizes to avoid?
Not so much for saving stuff to however for uploading stuff like firmware yes you are best to keep to 8GB or less and formatted in FAT32.
Kingston are well respected although I don't have problems with Apacer or Strontium.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 22, 2020, 06:15:40 am
Now, in my defense, I don't believe this to be pure user error, because I was getting exactly the same thing on the digital channels, and the trigger will not fire at all if you have the channels reversed.  In this case, the trigger would fire if the address was set to "don't care".  It's just that the address seen by the decoder (0x4e) was clearly not the address that would allow the trigger to fire.  As such, this clearly wasn't a case of doing something dumb like reversing the leads.  Nor does the signal look any different now, with it working, than it did when it wasn't working, at least that I can tell through inspection.

After more experimentation, I figured out the reason I had this problem.  It's pure user error.

There's a setting in the decoder configuration called "Include R/W bit".  My problem is that I had it enabled, and had totally forgotten about it (I thought it was for the purposes of display, i.e. show the R/W bit separately or something).  What this option does is to include the R/W bit in the address itself.  0x27 thus becomes 0x4e on a write!

The reason I didn't recognize 0x4e as 0x27 + write is that I naively expected that if the resulting address would include the R/W bit, the address bits of the displayed value would always be the 7 least significant bits and the read/write bit would occupy the MSB.   But it turns out that when the R/W bit is included, it's included as the LSB, and when it's not included the value shown is just the address alone.   This means that the effect is to shift the address one bit left when the R/W bit is included, thus yielding either 0x4e or 0x4f as the address.

Well, now that I understand what's going on, I can say unequivocally that the decoding and triggering system are both functioning perfectly.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ExaLab on December 26, 2020, 06:51:29 pm
Hi friends, I'm a new user of this interesting forum to which I hope to be able to contribute soon.

I recently purchased an SDS1204X-E and as I imagine it happens for many of you when you are getting ready to use a new product, I have focused (and partially stuck...) on a strange behavior of the instrument concerning the noise superimposed to the traces.
What I observe on my unit and which leaves me rather perplexed is that the noise superimposed on some tracks (channel 2 in particular ... the magenta) visibly increases when the related trace is moved from the center of the screen and positioned near the edge (using the vertical positioning knob).
This happens both with all the channels set in the GND position and in more marked mode, with the channels set in DC (or AC)
As you can see from the attached images, the thickness of channel two (magenta) and channel 3 (cyan), visibly increases when the related trace is placed near the edge of the screen.

Can someone check that?
The test is very fast: leave all the bnc inputs free, set all the four channels to 1V/div and to DC coupling, 100uS/div, acquisition normal, full BW and using the vertical positioning knob try to move the tracks near the edge of the screen.
Note: shorting to ground the BNC inputs nothing changes, setting the channels input coupling to GND the anomaly persists in a less marked way (as you can see from the images)
What leaves me stuck and unexplained is why the noise increases by moving the track away from the center and why this problem mainly affects channel two only?

Your help is of fundamental importance to me to understand if it is a HW problem (as I suspect) and therefore ask for the instrument replacement.

Thanks a lot to everyone
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: kcbrown on December 28, 2020, 09:50:52 am
Hi friends, I'm a new user of this interesting forum to which I hope to be able to contribute soon.

I recently purchased an SDS1204X-E and as I imagine it happens for many of you when you are getting ready to use a new product, I have focused (and partially stuck...) on a strange behavior of the instrument concerning the noise superimposed to the traces.
What I observe on my unit and which leaves me rather perplexed is that the noise superimposed on some tracks (channel 2 in particular ... the magenta) visibly increases when the related trace is moved from the center of the screen and positioned near the edge (using the vertical positioning knob).
This happens both with all the channels set in the GND position and in more marked mode, with the channels set in DC (or AC)
As you can see from the attached images, the thickness of channel two (magenta) and channel 3 (cyan), visibly increases when the related trace is placed near the edge of the screen.

Before anything else, did you perform the self-calibration on the scope after letting it run for 30 minutes (so that its internal temperature stabilizes)?   If not, please do that first and see if the problem reproduces afterwards.   Self-calibration can be performed by using the utility button, then on the first page of options at the bottom (the right-most box will say "1/4" in it), activate the "Do Self Cal" menu option.   Make sure all inputs are disconnected from the scope before doing that.

I performed the same test on my scope and did not see this issue.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 28, 2020, 10:46:13 am
Looks that this is now spreaded more than one thread.

Previously here and answered.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/msg3388926/#msg3388926 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/msg3388926/#msg3388926)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ExaLab on December 28, 2020, 11:27:54 pm
Thank you all!
I will proceed with the self-calibration and let you know the response. An oscilloscope that visibly increases the thickness of the traces when you move them from the center of the screen I had never seen it before ...

See you soon and ... thanks again for the tip!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ExaLab on December 30, 2020, 12:33:58 am
I did the self-calibration but nothing has changed!
So, with all 4 channels active (as in my previous reported setup) the issue is still there!

As a kind colleague of yours asked me, I also tried to exclude channels 1 and 4 in order to bring the sample rate to 1Gs / s. In this case the problem on channel 2 (and 3) seems to be much less marked!

Do you think my instrument has a problem? 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on December 30, 2020, 12:38:56 am
I did the self-calibration but nothing has changed!

See here, what he meant:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/msg3392328/#msg3392328 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/msg3392328/#msg3392328)

It would be nice from you, when you could decide by yourself, in which thread you´ll post your problems.
This will help others to react to your posts. ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mirror on January 20, 2021, 07:49:19 pm
Hello,
this is surely a dso beginner question. I own an SDS1204X-E with actual FW 6.1.35R2.
[attachimg=1]
The problem is how can I cut an dedicated time range of the waveform for viewing and save to file from screen e.g. one period of 140ms in this case? The time base allows only the usual coarse granulation - same for zooming. In opposite the position has fine granulation with 2% of the time scale. I tried with remote too  - but it is same behaviour (TIME_DIV 14.2e-3 will be rounded to next value of 10ms).
I thought that if the dso has the points in the memory I can access these points accurate as well.
I made few experiments with segmented aquisition and certain trigger approaches - so far no luck.
Any hint is appreciated.
[attachurl=1]
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on January 20, 2021, 08:51:02 pm
Hello,
this is surely a dso beginner question. I own an SDS1204X-E with actual FW 6.1.35R2.
(Attachment Link)
The problem is how can I cut an dedicated time range of the waveform for viewing and save to file from screen e.g. one period of 140ms in this case? The time base allows only the usual coarse granulation - same for zooming. In opposite the position has fine granulation with 2% of the time scale. I tried with remote too  - but it is same behaviour (TIME_DIV 14.2e-3 will be rounded to next value of 10ms).
I thought that if the dso has the points in the memory I can access these points accurate as well.
I made few experiments with segmented aquisition and certain trigger approaches - so far no luck.
Any hint is appreciated.
(Attachment Link)
Welcome to the forum.

I think Zoom mode can do what you need but first you should select a slow timebase and then press the timebase control to enter Zoom mode. When zoomed you can magnify the timebase and pan across the waveform record using the H Pos control which BTW pressing it will return the horizontal trigger point to zero which is what you should probably do first.
Pop some more screenshots up which of course you can get by just pressing the blue Print button and then we can give more guidance if required.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on January 20, 2021, 10:21:00 pm
Is the firmware still under development? Are any new versions expected in the future?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mirror on January 21, 2021, 10:09:59 am
Thank you tautech for the kind welcome.

I think it is a kind of misunderstanding. So I want it formulate in another way: The task is to view and to save the data only of one period of any frequency. I think with the coarse horizontal time scale it is not possible as we see in the attached pictures.
[attach=1][attach=2][attach=3]
Me was told that some of the other dso supplier have a kind of fine timebase adjustment. OK - we have not!
So how we can cut of the desired time range from memory?
Thank you.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on January 21, 2021, 08:51:25 pm
Thank you tautech for the kind welcome.

I think it is a kind of misunderstanding. So I want it formulate in another way: The task is to view and to save the data only of one period of any frequency. I think with the coarse horizontal time scale it is not possible as we see in the attached pictures.

Me was told that some of the other dso supplier have a kind of fine timebase adjustment. OK - we have not!
So how we can cut of the desired time range from memory?
Thank you.
Correct X-E does not offer a variable timebase however for the signals above 10ms/div comes close to what you want.

Some operational tips if I may:
Earlier I noticed you had mem depth set to 7k where this can be useful for smaller file saves it also limits the scopes capability where I believe you should only select a small memory depth when the need arises.
Horizontal trigger position can be locked at any position you desire so that when making timebase adjustments the H Pos never leaves the display and this will be more convenient when you need to display a single waveform period to fill the display as much as possible.
The feature to do this is in the Utility menu on P3 IIRC.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rolkev on January 23, 2021, 11:37:36 am
100 % correct
That was the first thing I noticed after turning on the device.
This is really stupid.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rolkev on January 23, 2021, 11:43:46 am
Has already someone botherd to exchange the Intensity/Adjust encoder with a detented encoder?

I did this with my two other DSOs (different brand) and found it to be a great enhancement for me.

More often than not, I manage to cause an unwanted jump in value or selection when pressing the knob.

Maybe, tis is just me...

Regards
Chris

Hello Chris,

Not only you. I will change the Encoder too, as soon as I find one with "soft tooth"

Regards
Volker
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on January 23, 2021, 11:47:29 am
Has already someone botherd to exchange the Intensity/Adjust encoder with a detented encoder?

I did this with my two other DSOs (different brand) and found it to be a great enhancement for me.

More often than not, I manage to cause an unwanted jump in value or selection when pressing the knob.

Maybe, tis is just me...

Regards
Chris

Hello Chris,

Not only you. I will change the Encoder too, as soon as I find one with "soft tooth"

Regards
Volker
Please share the model of the new encoder once you do it. The encoders are one of the biggest flaws of these models.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mirror on January 23, 2021, 12:35:36 pm
100 % correct
That was the first thing I noticed after turning on the device.
This is really stupid.

Sorry - what do you mean?
The problem with arbitrary time base resolution I mentioned or the explanations regarding trigger point positioning by tautech?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mirror on January 23, 2021, 12:56:31 pm
It seems that in FW 6.1.35R2 the channel input impedance setting softkey disappeared.
Also in the actual manual SDS1000X-ESDS1000X-U_UserManual_UM0101E-E05A.pdf the description is removed. No notice in release notes too!
I know that X-E has no 50  \$\Omega\$ builtin, but if I used external Feedtrough then the information on the display will be usefull for documentation.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tatel on March 24, 2021, 11:08:51 am
Hi all, I'm taking my time considering the purchase of a SDS1104X-E

Could you guys give me an update about how LA option is working? Even if I do purchase this scope after all, I'm not considering to purchase SLA1016 anytime soon, but to make my decision about what to buy it would be helpful to know for sure about this matter. The intel I have found so far looks somewhat contradictory.

Before FW 6.1.33 @BiilB and @Performa01 said it was "crippled":
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/logic-analyzer-decision-siglent-spl1016-probe-or-a-separate-usb-la/msg2342217/#msg2342217: (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/logic-analyzer-decision-siglent-spl1016-probe-or-a-separate-usb-la/msg2342217/#msg2342217:)

I can't find any post saying it has been fixed on 6.1.33. Can you confirm it has been fixed?

After 6.1.33 release  @Howardlong posted:
Quote
On the 1104X-E, the UI performance grinds to a halt with the LA attached

But then in an answer to other user @Tautech said:
Quote
Quote
“I have a Siglent SDS1104X-E hacked to 200 MHz and have installed the WiFi option.  At the moment I have no plans to get or use the Arbitrary Waveform Generator (AWG) or the Logic Analyzer (LA) but was wondering, is there any reason NOT to install them?  Will it have any negative effect on performance or in some other way?  If not, I might as well install them, perhaps in a few years some cheap AWG or LA hardware will turn up on Ebay.”
Not at all however you have 30 free trial uses for any options so they are effectively active already albeit only for 30 uses.

So what sould I think about? LA makes UI performance grind to a halt or does it work like a charm? Can you give any pointers?

Thank you all, this thread has been very helpful indeed
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: jan28 on March 24, 2021, 09:05:31 pm
I’ve been wanting to write a proper review of the LA because I couldn’t find it either, but haven’t found the time yet. From my head I can sum up a few things regarding the LA:

I have the LA, the hardware is OK, but the software integration with the scope is simply bad. The plain 1104X-E has a lot of features for the money, but the LA software integration is nowhere nearly in the same league.

First of all you have to realise the scope looses several functions for both analog AND digital if you turn on the LA (‘digital’ button) mode (selecting the function display a message it’s not supported in digital mode):
- segmented memory
- history
- If you turn on decode (e.q. I2C, SPI) you also loose analog and digital sampling depth (I think it was half)
- masking
- roll mode
- fall/pass test (also for analog)

In the end the hardware has a nice sampling dept and speed but it is nog usable in many cases for me due to the above limitations. I was very disappointed segmented memory and history doesn’t work in digital mode. You can’t simply scroll thru 10 I2C burst and look at the differences... You have to work with a single trigger to catch what you want.

Regarding UI speed:
- increasing the sampling dept (aquisition depth) makes things slow
- adding decoding also makes the scope feel sluggish. Combined with a large sampling depth also slows screen updates
- changing the time division is SLOW, it takes 2-3 seconds for the scope to respond. Not what you’re used to in analog mode, it gives you a feeling the scope hangs.
- enabling more features like measure/cursor sometimes make the scope very slow, to the unusable. When in digital mode I try to keep things simple.

Once setup and running the screen updates are OK. But don’t touch buttons like time division/horizontal trigger (that’s not the feeling you want to have when using an instrument)

Very annoying: If you turn the scope off with a digital trigger setup, the trigger we revert to an analog default. Turning the scope on again you have to setup the digital trigger settings again. Other ditigal settings (channels, channel placement, etc) are remembered.

Given the above I think it is not very acceptable Siglent ask money for the software enablement of the LA. The hardware of the LA is already very expensive compared to the scope itself.

Edit: typos and finished last sentence.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tatel on March 25, 2021, 12:00:39 am
I'm just wondering what was "fixed" in 6.1.33, even if I did read the release notes... Now I think I'm just beginning to understand why those notes were so absolutely non-specific about LA bugs fixed. At least some of these things were reported by @Performa01 some 27 months ago. IIRC, two firmware updates have been released since.

So it looks @Howardlong was just right when said
Quote
For an MSO at this level, I consider the older Rigol DS1000Z+ with LA probes to be a significantly better solution

I'm just looking for my first scope, and some days ago I said I wasn't considering DS1000Z+ "'cause it's outdated". Do you hear that? It's just me eating my own words right now. How the ignorant dares...

I guess people doesn't care about MSO capabilities or probably there would be much more reports about that. SDS1014X-E has a lot of traction, still just 3-4  disappointed LA reports. Should I spend €288 on that thing, I would probably be quite furious. More after 2 years with no solution.

I'll have to make my mind again about if I really need/want an scope with mixed signal capabilities. Probably it isn't worth the money. I'm an absolute noob, so I just know I want as much of a hassle-free device as possible. I'm not planning to buy another scope some years in the future, so it would be nice to have get one with MSO, just in case.

Good to know. Many thanks for your information
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Roman oh on March 26, 2021, 02:34:30 am
I bought an 1104X-E recently and am so far very pleased. It came with manual -E03A which I now see has been updated and current manual is -E05A. So I quickly scanned through for "what has changed?" (Unfortunately, the manuals don't reference specific firmware versions, etc).

Some differences I noted which might be significant.

1. The new manual drops the statement "SDS1000X-E has full BW with all V/div settings including 500uV/div to 2mV/div." which appeared in the old. (mine is 6.1.35R2; maintains tr, tf at around 1.4nS (rebirthed as 1204X-E!) at 500uV/div OK)
2. The new manual drops the statement, with respect to triggering, “No matter whether the input of the channel selected is enabled, the channel can work normally.” (Mine does not; If the channel is deselected, it does not appear as a trigger source option.).
3 The new manual drops the statement “SIGLENT provides passive probes for the oscilloscopes. For detailed technical information of the probes, please refer to the corresponding Probe User’s Guide.”  (Mine certainly came with probes).

So the question is - why the changes?


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 26, 2021, 03:02:48 am
I bought an 1104X-E recently and am so far very pleased. It came with manual -E03A which I now see has been updated and current manual is -E05A. So I quickly scanned through for "what has changed?" (Unfortunately, the manuals don't reference specific firmware versions, etc).

Some differences I noted which might be significant.

1. The new manual drops the statement "SDS1000X-E has full BW with all V/div settings including 500uV/div to 2mV/div." which appeared in the old. (mine is 6.1.35R2; maintains tr, tf at around 1.4nS (rebirthed as 1204X-E!) at 500uV/div OK)
2. The new manual drops the statement, with respect to triggering, “No matter whether the input of the channel selected is enabled, the channel can work normally.” (Mine does not; If the channel is deselected, it does not appear as a trigger source option.).
3 The new manual drops the statement “SIGLENT provides passive probes for the oscilloscopes. For detailed technical information of the probes, please refer to the corresponding Probe User’s Guide.”  (Mine certainly came with probes).

So the question is - why the changes?
To accommodate the very similar but slightly different new model SDS1104X-U.
These new DSO's now share the the same manual.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rstofer on March 26, 2021, 03:43:20 pm
I'm just looking for my first scope, and some days ago I said I wasn't considering DS1000Z+ "'cause it's outdated". Do you hear that? It's just me eating my own words right now. How the ignorant dares...

Two ways of looking at maturity:  It's just old or 'all the bugs have finally been squashed'.  It took Rigol a couple of years to do this and several firmware upgrades.  I have no idea where 'bugs' stand with Siglent.  You can chase this down or just figure that it should be pretty good by now, it's getting fairly mature as well.  What you don't want to do is buy the 'Thursday Model', recently released whiz-bang scope.

The big complaint with the Rigol is the poor responsiveness of the controls.  This isn't just grousing, it's a very real issue.  Whether it matters is a different question.  If I spend 2% of my scope time twiddling knobs, how much time do I save if the GUI is twice as fast?  OTOH, why buy in to a GUI that is known to be slow when the Siglent is purportedly much more interactive.  And, unlocked, twice the bandwidth.

A less responsive GUI isn't a joy to use so one of my goals in considering the Siglent upgrade to my Rigol is the performance of the GUI.  The other is bandwidth, more is always better.  I'm considering, not actually spending money.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Roman oh on March 29, 2021, 06:08:10 am

[/quote]
To accommodate the very similar but slightly different new model SDS1104X-U.
These new DSO's now share the the same manual.
[/quote]

Yes, I see that the -05 manual includes references to the -U version. If your comment is an answer to my question, does that imply that the -U does not have full BW at 500uV/div range and does not come with probes? Strange way to address model differences if so :D Or is Siglent keeping its options option wrt a possible future downgrade of the -E package?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 29, 2021, 06:16:27 am
To accommodate the very similar but slightly different new model SDS1104X-U.
These new DSO's now share the the same manual.

Yes, I see that the -05 manual includes references to the -U version. If your comment is an answer to my question, does that imply that the -U does not have full BW at 500uV/div range and does not come with probes? Strange way to address model differences if so :D Or is Siglent keeping its options option wrt a possible future downgrade of the -E package?
X-U max sensitivity is 1mV therefore cannot operate at 500uV....yes this Chinglish is a little confusing.
Of course both X-E and X-U come with probes.

X-U is the downgraded X-E and its $100 less price reflects this.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on March 29, 2021, 06:24:51 am
Differences, including also info about probes.

(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1104X-U/Compare-X-U---X-E-688.png)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on March 30, 2021, 04:56:10 pm
Differences, including also info about probes.

(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1104X-U/Compare-X-U---X-E-688.png)

Thanks for this handy comparison. I suppose the comparison for WIFI capabilities is a bit less rosy for the SDS1104/1204X-E than advertised, considering that it's impossible to use in a situation where you can't change the SSID name or password to fit the restrictions imposed by the scope's wifi firmware. The duration of this handicap would lead one to believe that it's more a feature rather than a bug.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: khutch004 on April 08, 2021, 06:30:42 pm
I have a suggestion to Siglent, if they listen here. I have an SDS1104X-E and an SDG2042. They work well together to do Bode plots. The process is very slow however. The function is great for making measurements but useless for tuning a radio IF, for example, in real time. It is fairly easy to make real time swept measurements with the pair by having the generator sweep at the desired rate and setting the scope sweep time to match. You can even have the second channel generate a sync pulse. There is a sync output on the back of the generator that works fine too. The front panel connector for channel 2 is just more convenient to use!

The display you see on the scope is the envelop of the test signal as it is swept through the pass band of whatever it is that you are testing/tuning. It is perfectly useable as it is. It would that much nicer, however, if you could set the vertical display of the scope to give you the log of the output voltage, a dB scale in other words. I realize that there are mathematical issues with doing this on a signal that passes through zero but there are reasonable things you could do about that. Just setting a minimum displayed level for the current sensitivity setting for example.

Of course you can do much the same thing with an external log amp and I have one on order. It just seems to me that the scope firmware could do this sort of thing and make the external amp unnecessary....
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on April 09, 2021, 03:47:34 am
I have a suggestion to Siglent, if they listen here. I have an SDS1104X-E and an SDG2042. They work well together to do Bode plots. The process is very slow however. The function is great for making measurements but useless for tuning a radio IF, for example, in real time. It is fairly easy to make real time swept measurements with the pair by having the generator sweep at the desired rate and setting the scope sweep time to match. You can even have the second channel generate a sync pulse. There is a sync output on the back of the generator that works fine too. The front panel connector for channel 2 is just more convenient to use!

The display you see on the scope is the envelop of the test signal as it is swept through the pass band of whatever it is that you are testing/tuning. It is perfectly useable as it is. It would that much nicer, however, if you could set the vertical display of the scope to give you the log of the output voltage, a dB scale in other words. I realize that there are mathematical issues with doing this on a signal that passes through zero but there are reasonable things you could do about that. Just setting a minimum displayed level for the current sensitivity setting for example.

Of course you can do much the same thing with an external log amp and I have one on order. It just seems to me that the scope firmware could do this sort of thing and make the external amp unnecessary....

Perhaps you have found it works some amount faster if you turn ALC off. (Channel Gain Auto/Hold, select Hold) But in this case you need manually first check what is maximum level and manually set channel V/Div so that signal do not clip.
Naturally maximum dynamic range is now limited and not anymore up to even 140dB.

Still it is quite slow. I have not now available SDS1000X-E for check, I am far away from my homeland.
But I just tested using SDS2000XPlus and one case, simple 3 xtal 11MHz ladder, 20kHz span swept with 250Hz steps. ALC off, 17s and ALC On  51s.  SDS2000XPlus also slows speed down when ALC On and signal  out from DUT is very weak, near noise.

Attached this test image when measured 17.1s  sweep repeat interval.  And yes it is still slow. But not hopeless slow even for fine tuning filter. For rough preliminary adjust no need even this freq resolution.
Depending case and what we are adjusting, rough steps do not need high freq resolution so it can speed up and then use higher resolution when do some fine adjustments. Here was used 250Hz resolution. Maximal with 20kHz span is 40Hz.

Naturally analog sweeper and analog scope can be much faster, but even then, if filter is enough narrow, there need reduce speed. In history I have used analog scope and sweeper quite lot, but in history also special instruments like example ancient R&S  SWOB.
Just same reason why sweeping spectrum analyzer slows down sweep when RBW is more narrow. Now our "RBW" is this filter under test. Some usual IF filters are of course so wide and not extremely steep,  it is not reason for this slow speed in scope BodePlot. But, it need also remember that DUT is unknown and PB need handle it even if there is very steep edge.

Now when BodePlot sweep, it can not know what is next step, it can be just up to full dynamic range step. It need keep speed so slow that even this is possible. Because DUT is unknown. It can not predict DUT response and adjust optimal speed. it need use worst case speed and then of course time what need command SDG and wait it settle and give also time to DUT for settle. And if ALC is On, then adjust optimal input channel V/div.  And after all ready then start measurement. Plot data to primary table and after then go to next step. Bode plot display is secondary, it only draw to display what data is in primary full resolution table.
Lets hope some day it is possible that also user can adjust this bode plot step delay and also turn it to wide mode. (as we know it listen only this frequency what it have asked from SDG, it works like frequency selective level receiver... in some cases, when DUT do freq conversion (simplest example, mixer), we need full span wide level "receiver" *if we can not adjust offset, (if offset is known and constant.))

SDS2kX+  is not same as 1kX-E but also there is difference in speed when ALC on/off
20kHz span, 250Hz freq steps. ALC Off aka Input Channel Gain:Manual  17s sweep interval (Image)
20kHz span, 250Hz freq steps. ALC On aka Input Channel Gain: Auto   51s sweep interval (no separate image, only bottom right corner have less noise.)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nez on April 09, 2021, 05:55:36 am
Perhaps you have found it works some amount faster if you turn ALC off. (Channel Gain Auto/Hold, select Hold) But in this case you need manually first check what is maximum level and manually set channel V/Div so that signal do not clip.
Naturally maximum dynamic range is now limited and not anymore up to even 140dB.

Thanks for the tip on that!  I like the increased speed if I know I don't need the dynamic gain.

Although, when I just tried BodePlot II on my SDS1104X-E with Channel Gain set to Hold, it seemed to leave the SDG2042X AWG in a weird state where front panel was locked/unresponsive after I stopped the plot.  After starting another plot on the scope after setting Channel Gain back to Auto, the AWG problem went away.

I didn't have time to look much into it, so I can check it out again later if no one else has the issue.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on April 09, 2021, 07:10:46 am
Although, when I just tried BodePlot II on my SDS1104X-E with Channel Gain set to Hold, it seemed to leave the SDG2042X AWG in a weird state where front panel was locked/unresponsive after I stopped the plot.  After starting another plot on the scope after setting Channel Gain back to Auto, the AWG problem went away.

I didn't have time to look much into it, so I can check it out again later if no one else has the issue.
Thing is nez, when a SDG is connected to your scope and it's in Bode plot mode it's not yours anymore as the scope owns it !
Turn Bode plot to OFF and you can have it back.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: khutch004 on April 09, 2021, 06:48:19 pm
Thanks for the suggestion, rf-loop, I will keep that in mind!

I've got plenty of ways to do the job. The Bode plot, a traditional swept signal measurement with or without a log amp, a nanoVNA, and perhaps I will get a SSA3021X Plus soon with its built in tracking generator!

It just occurred to me that this would be a useful option to have on the vertical axis and that it is already implemented in some fashion in the Bode software so maybe not too hard to make available all the time. I don't know if it would have any use beyond the one I envision but even with just that one application it might further endear their customers to Siglent products and what business doesn't love that!?

I'm using my test gear to restore old tube radios. Keeping it all safe when connected to circuits that run on 400 VDC is my biggest challenge!!  ;D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nez on April 09, 2021, 10:28:43 pm
Although, when I just tried BodePlot II on my SDS1104X-E with Channel Gain set to Hold, it seemed to leave the SDG2042X AWG in a weird state where front panel was locked/unresponsive after I stopped the plot.  After starting another plot on the scope after setting Channel Gain back to Auto, the AWG problem went away.

I didn't have time to look much into it, so I can check it out again later if no one else has the issue.
Thing is nez, when a SDG is connected to your scope and it's in Bode plot mode it's not yours anymore as the scope owns it !
Turn Bode plot to OFF and you can have it back.  ;)

For my combo of SDS1104x-e and SDG2042x, the AWG front panel doesn't get locked during Bode plots (that's totally ok with me, I don't need it locked).

However, it turns out the issue is a little different than I thought at first.

Test setup:
- Unlocked SDG2042x CH 1 and 2 connected to unlocked SDS1104x-e CH 1 and 2.
- AWG channel coupling on, both channels enabled.
- Bode plot sweep from 10 Hz to 120 MHz.
- Tested with Channel Gain set to 'Auto' first, then 'Hold'.
- Latest firmwares on scope and AWG.


When set to 'Auto' for Channel Gain (i.e. default setting), the Bode plot progresses at a consistant rate as expected.

When set to 'Hold' for Channel Gain, the Bode plot progresses much quicker early on, but later on slows down a lot and progresses in noticable bursts of activity with lag time in-between bursts.  The overall rate of progression becomes much slower.
After reaching the end of the sweep, it resets back to the start of the plot for another sweep as expected but has a very short amount of time at the faster rate before slowing down again into the bursty lagged progression.  This pattern repeats each time the Plot restarts at the beginning for the next sweep.

For another angle of analysis, if I stop the Bode plot (including exiting BodePlot II completely), if the Channel Gain was in 'Hold' mode where the problem above was described, the AWG front panel is unresponsive for ~20 to 60 seconds.  It's not actually locked -- If I hit a button or turn the knob to change something, it will make a single beep immediately, then 'hang' for that 20-60 seconds, after which the first button/knob press (that beeped) takes affect. Any subsequent button presses while in the 'hanging' state don't take affect (not queued).



My best guess is that there is a bug that's expressed in Channel Gain 'Hold' mode that floods some kind of command buffer in the SDG2042x, which takes significant time for it to process through, and once this buffer is full the SDS1104x-e scope isn't able to send any more commands till there is space in the AWG buffer, hence causing the 'bursty' slow progression of the Bode plot.

Likewise the front panel operations don't get processed until after the other buffer is cleared (completely?), so the first button press beeps and hangs for a while.

Maybe the SDS2000XPlus series scopes avoid this issue.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: KC6Q on April 27, 2021, 05:28:15 am
Given that SDS1104X-E can be unlocked to have 200 MHz bandwidth (this is still possible with newer copies of the scope, right?), is there any reason to buy the considerably more expensive SDS1204X-E over SDS1104X-E?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on April 27, 2021, 08:07:36 am
Given that SDS1104X-E can be unlocked to have 200 MHz bandwidth (this is still possible with newer copies of the scope, right?), is there any reason to buy the considerably more expensive SDS1204X-E over SDS1104X-E?
Welcome to the forum.

The current firmware that permits improvements is over a year old therefore little has changed.  ;)
4x PP510 probes vs 4x PP215 probes account for $40 of the current price difference where a while back it was double when PP510 was cheaper however PP215 are a slightly better match for higher frequencies although this matters little for general use.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 28, 2021, 08:01:17 pm
SDS1000X-U firmware v1.1.5R6 (https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2021/05/SDS1104X-U_1.1.5R6_EN.zip)

This is for PRODUCT_ID 17001.
The only product in the X-U range, SDS1104X-U has its own thread and yes that FW came out a couple of weeks back.  ;)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-1120-new-sds1104x-u-4-channel-100mhz-1gsas-economy-oscilloscope/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-1120-new-sds1104x-u-4-channel-100mhz-1gsas-economy-oscilloscope/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on June 20, 2021, 08:16:30 pm
Is SDS1000X-E still supported? Are any firmware updates expected?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on June 21, 2021, 05:06:19 pm
I finally decided to reach out directly to Siglent over the whole "wifi doesn't connect to networks with spaces and/or special characters in the SSID/PSK" issue:

Code: [Select]
I have owned a Siglent SDS1104X-E for a few years now, and I cannot connect the unit to my wifi. I do not control the SSID or password for the wifi
I use, and I have discovered that the unit cannot connect to the wifi if the SSID possesses as space or a special character (e.g. -, &, +, etc), nor can
it connect if the wifi password has either spaces or special characters in it.

This is a severel imitation, I need my unit to be able to connect to this wifi so that I can automate my measurements. I have spent money on the wifi
dongle for this purpose, but in this situation it is useless. What can I do to make this unit work with this wifi network, given that I cannot control
either the SSID or the password?

Here is their response:

Code: [Select]
Hi SMB784,

Jason @ SIGLENT North America here. Thank you for writing.

Engineering is aware of the limitation regarding the current situation with the XE firmware being incompatible with SSIDs and PSKs that have spaces or special characters.

The current solution is to only use the WiFi on networks that have SSIDs and PSKs that do not have spaces or special characters.

Engineering is working on a firmware enhancement that will allow special characters and spaces, but it has not been released yet. I do not know when it will be released.

My recommendation would be to sign up for our monthly newsletter. We send out notifications for FW changes in each issue, so when it is fixed, you can quickly receive that information:

https://siglentna.com/orbital-care/

NOTE: The WiFi option does not work with Mesh networks. If you wish to use the device on more complex networking configurations, then this may be an appropriate option:

https://siglentna.com/operating-tip/wifi-performance-is-slow-or-does-not-connect-well-to-my-network/

J

So basically the gist is that they are aware of this problem, they are trying to fix it, but they have no idea when that fix will be ready.  Also, the things don't work with mesh wifi networks unless you have a different dongle (see link in response), which may explain some of the slow remote responses some people are experiencing.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on June 28, 2021, 08:19:02 pm
Is SDS1000X-E still supported? Are any firmware updates expected?
They no longer reply to issues/bug reports so I guess low priority or no longer of interest.

Read the post directly above yours.

I messaged them about the firmware issue regarding the Wifi SSID name, and they responded, and said they are working on it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 24, 2021, 02:56:51 pm
New firmware and optional OS update for SDS1104 and 1204X-E models.

Version V6.1.37R2
8.7 MB
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Oscilloscope/SDS1xx4X-E_6.1.37R2_EN.zip

Release notes
Added data logger featuring Sample  and Measurement Logger functions
Added counter function
Added Labels
Added NTP (Network Time Protocol) and Time Zone. Also requires OS update to SDS1xx4X-E_OSV2 which is located on the SIGLENT product webpage. The OS Update Instructions is also included SDS1xx4X-E_OSV2.zip
Modified negative or positive of horizontal delay: Time zero is in trigger. Before trigger, time position is -time (negative delay relative to trigger) and after trigger is +time  (positive delay relative to trigger)
Fixed a bug with Bin2CSV for ROLL mode
Rebuilt Bin2CSV to File Converter which can also convert data logger file to CSV.
Fixed a bug: some case there is a blue line on decode bus
Fixed a bug with saving hex MSO CSV file
Fixed a bug: After rebooting , Bode Plot cursor can’t be moved
Fixed a bug: fine adjusting with customer probe
WiFi supported Spaces and Special Characters

OS V2
17.8 MB
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Oscilloscope/SDS1xx4X-E_OSV2_EN.zip

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on August 24, 2021, 06:22:54 pm
New firmware and optional OS update for SDS1104 and 1204X-E models.

Very nice!  Trying the data logger now.  What are labels?

Will the OS update affect the, um, "upgrades"?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Ringmodulator on August 24, 2021, 08:38:10 pm
Hi Tautech,

thank you for the infos about the updates.

I performed both updates and now, the wifi settings are not in the I/O menu, or anywhere I looked.

 :-//

When I plug in the wifi dongle, the scope displays "wireless adapter detected"

Maybe I am looking in the wrong places for the settings?

Chris
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Ringmodulator on August 24, 2021, 09:45:41 pm
I downgraded to SDS1xx4X-E_6.1.35R2_EN and wifi is working again.

Chris
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: DEV001 on August 24, 2021, 09:59:34 pm
I downgraded to SDS1xx4X-E_6.1.35R2_EN and wifi is working again.

Chris

I guess I will hold off updating then as I purchased this model based back in 2019 (TL-WN725N).
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008IFXQFU/ (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008IFXQFU/)

So you are running the newer OS on the .35R2 firmware?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on August 25, 2021, 01:50:23 am
I upgraded firmware only, not OS.  WiFi is now not working.

I just found my dongle.  If I press the NET INTERFACE button with it out, I get a 'wireless adapter not detected' message.  If I insert the dongle, I get 'wireless adapter detected', but the NET INTERFACE indicator remains on LAN.  If I press the button, it just sits there and does nothing.

Awaiting further instructions.

The data logging is basic but good.  Allows sample or measurement logging with 4 channels of one or the other, but not any combinations.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 25, 2021, 02:53:09 am
For sure it seems WiFi is broken and can confirm others findings.  :(
Reported.

The OS and FW install resets most everything including loss of any previous LAN settings.
The new FTP Date/Time and Counter features do appear as valuable additions.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Ringmodulator on August 25, 2021, 05:15:08 am
I downgraded to SDS1xx4X-E_6.1.35R2_EN and wifi is working again.

Chris

I guess I will hold off updating then as I purchased this model based back in 2019 (TL-WN725N).
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008IFXQFU/ (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008IFXQFU/)

So you are running the newer OS on the .35R2 firmware?


Yes, I did the OS update first and the the FW update.
Result: WIFI does not work.

I then downgraded the FW to SDS1xx4X-E_6.1.35R2_EN
Result: WIFI works again.

A "creative way" to solve the SSID issue in the new FW :palm:

Chris
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 25, 2021, 05:52:53 am
What are labels?
New feature to label traces and found in the channel menu on the new P3.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: maskedviperus on August 25, 2021, 06:17:57 pm
Hey all,

I was in another thread talking about this. Reached out to a contact i have at siglent....and can confirm its an issue with the update and not any other "reasons"....be it legit adapter or not.

I assume its gonna be fixed.  Seems like just a mistake.

But all in all, the update is decent.  Highly appreciated additional features
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Ringmodulator on August 26, 2021, 11:52:50 am
How can I see, if the OS V2 update was successful?

The instructios read:

"Confirm the OS updated successfully by observing the system information on the scope. If the software version is 2, the update was successful."

It does not look like this at all on my SDS1104X-E.

Chris
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: maskedviperus on August 26, 2021, 12:19:10 pm
I was wondering this same thing.  THere is no 2 that shows up. Same before or after....

but im apt to believe it worked as ntp functioned and my flash drive led blinked like it did something upon boot
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on August 26, 2021, 02:25:33 pm
Is it possible it is same logic  as with first OSV1 install.

At this time I can not test it.

Os version is perhaps in same place (second from leftmost)
As in attached image from OS V1 istall instruction from year 2018


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1254016;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: blurpy on August 26, 2021, 06:49:10 pm
I thought it was a reference to the Uboot-OS Version. That's not on the picture from rf-loop though, so it could be different for others. I have not updated the OS before. I guessed that 8.1 was version 1, and by updating the OS I would get 8.2.

Sorry for the bad picture, it's difficult to get focus on the screen, and the print screen button doesn't work here.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 26, 2021, 06:56:59 pm
I thought it was a reference to the Uboot-OS Version. That's not on the picture from rf-loop though, so it could be different for others. I have not updated the OS before. I guessed that 8.1 was version 1, and by updating the OS I would get 8.2.
100% correct.
Took notice of one I did yesterday before shipping to customer.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Ringmodulator on August 26, 2021, 09:22:11 pm
Ok, my Uboot-OS Version is displayed as 8.2 after the V2 OS update.
I guess, that the update did work then...


@rf-loop: FW 7.0.6.1.25R1???
I am not aware, that there is FW starting with 7. for the SDS1104X-E.
So far, the current ones start with 6.
How is that?

Chris
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: CharlotteSwiss on August 26, 2021, 11:17:41 pm
I hope they also remember their little brother 1202x-e ...   :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on August 27, 2021, 01:28:51 am
Ok, my Uboot-OS Version is displayed as 8.2 after the V2 OS update.
I guess, that the update did work then...


@rf-loop: FW 7.0.6.1.25R1???
I am not aware, that there is FW starting with 7. for the SDS1104X-E.
So far, the current ones start with 6.
How is that?

Chris

Just do not care this first number. Different positions, different meaning.
In old system all was in one row. Today Uboot OS version is separated to own row. But numbering logic is same.
Position 2 is OS version. First two was U Boot OS Version.
After then come "FW" version. It was in old system.

This is why we mostly talk FW version as example 6.1.25R1 etc... (what also produce some confusion because before this there was also two other number separated with dot.)

Today it is displayed differently and first two numbers (U Boot OS Version) are displayed in own row: as example 8.1
Logic is same. Second number is OS vers. (as can see here OS version is 1)
Now after successful update to V2  there may read 8.2
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 27, 2021, 10:41:11 am
New User manual which includes chapters on the recently added features ... NTP etc.
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/document/SDS1000X_E_SDS1000X_U_UserManual_EN.pdf
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: graybeard on August 27, 2021, 01:29:01 pm
Will the new OS/firmware maintain my "upgrade"  of my SDS1104X-E to a SDS1204X-E?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on August 27, 2021, 02:20:21 pm
Will the new OS/firmware maintain my "upgrade"  of my SDS1104X-E to a SDS1204X-E?

My 1104 still has a bandwidth of approx 270MHz after OS update.

Also version is at 7.2, which was 7.1 before update.

Unfortunately I've lost my WiFi dongle, so can't confirm other findings on WiFi issue.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ian.ameline on August 28, 2021, 03:26:00 pm
I like the NTP support -  syncing date and time from an NTP server (google will find ip addresses of NIST NTP servers). It can automatically sync at power up and at intervals thereafter (not shorter than 1 hour)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Roger Need on August 28, 2021, 09:39:46 pm
I hope they also remember their little brother 1202x-e ...   :-//

That would be nice.  There has not been a firmware update for the 1202X-E for some time. 

Siglent - Are you listening?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: JohanH on August 29, 2021, 10:19:03 am
I upgraded to latest 6.1.37R2 firmware.

But I can't for my life get it to upgrade to OS version 2. Tried every USB stick I have. Still says Uboot-OS version 8.1.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on August 29, 2021, 10:22:50 am
I upgraded to latest 6.1.37R2 firmware.

But I can't for my life get it to upgrade to OS version 2. Tried every USB stick I have. Still says Uboot-OS version 8.1.

Are you using an 8GB or 32GB drive as suggested in notes?

Are the update files in the root folder?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: JohanH on August 29, 2021, 10:40:28 am

Are you using an 8GB or 32GB drive as suggested in notes?

Are the update files in the root folder?

I finally managed it with another USB drive that I found (that was 16 GB). The other ones I tried previously were 4, 8 and 16. I have no idea why it didn't work with them. Tried formatting and all. But thanks. I guess I had to mention it in the forum before it worked  |O  :D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 3isenhorn on August 29, 2021, 05:47:02 pm
I upgraded to latest 6.1.37R2 firmware.

But I can't for my life get it to upgrade to OS version 2. Tried every USB stick I have. Still says Uboot-OS version 8.1.

I had the same problem, finally I got a 2gb stick to work with. (Before that I tried 16GB and 8GB).
It is also important that all files must be in the root directory. (Only unpacking into the root directory did not work for me).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on August 30, 2021, 06:09:03 am
I upgraded to latest 6.1.37R2 firmware.

But I can't for my life get it to upgrade to OS version 2. Tried every USB stick I have. Still says Uboot-OS version 8.1.

I had the same problem, finally I got a 2gb stick to work with. (Before that I tried 16GB and 8GB).
It is also important that all files must be in the root directory. (Only unpacking into the root directory did not work for me).

When you unzip folder SDS1xx4X-E_OSV2_EN.zip to USB root, did you get
result where USB root directory have 5  files in root directory or just unzipped folder in USB root.
If so of course it fails. Update procedure read files directly from root, not from some folder in root.

USB root need have exactly these four files (if there is also instructions pdf file it do not matter):

uImage
sds1004x_e_udiskEnv.txt
rootfs.cramfs
devicetree.dtb

USB stick need be in native FAT32 format  and just one partition and non bootable.

I have always used genuine Kingston 8GB  SE9 USB2.0 (I have couple of these reserved for only for this purpose, bacause I do work, not playing fun). (Older time also have used 2G and 4G)
Native FAT32 4k cluster format (format done under windows diskpart what also can easy delete any boot etc hassle from USB)
This have worked rock solid with every single older or more new Siglent instruments, never have any single failure in any kind kind of update, and I have done these bit more than many, over 10 years)

Perhaps Siglent need do bit better and more perfect and detailed these instructions. (if anyone even read these because fashion is... first do then think)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 03, 2021, 10:49:33 am
For sure it seems WiFi is broken and can confirm others findings.  :(
Reported.
WiFi fix will soon be available for public download but sorry no official release date yet.  :(
Edit screenshot updated.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1261597)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on September 03, 2021, 09:50:51 pm
I updated the OS and the firmware and I'm not sure if the OS update worked correctly. I inserted a USB flash with all the files in the root directory and restarted the oscilloscope, but it looked like nothing happened during the restart.

I attached the versions after the updates. Do these version indicate a successful update?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 03, 2021, 09:56:05 pm
I updated the OS and the firmware and I'm not sure if the OS update worked correctly. I inserted a USB flash with all the files in the root directory and restarted the oscilloscope, but it looked like nothing happened during the restart.

I attached the versions after the updates. Do these version indicate a successful update?
No.
See blurpy's reply:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg3648412/#msg3648412 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg3648412/#msg3648412)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on September 03, 2021, 10:00:44 pm
I updated the OS and the firmware and I'm not sure if the OS update worked correctly. I inserted a USB flash with all the files in the root directory and restarted the oscilloscope, but it looked like nothing happened during the restart.

I attached the versions after the updates. Do these version indicate a successful update?
No.
See blurpy's reply:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg3648412/#msg3648412 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg3648412/#msg3648412)
I tried to downgrade the OS version to the previous one and it showed 7.1. Then I installed the new OS again and it shows 7.2 again.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 03, 2021, 10:16:37 pm
I updated the OS and the firmware and I'm not sure if the OS update worked correctly. I inserted a USB flash with all the files in the root directory and restarted the oscilloscope, but it looked like nothing happened during the restart.

I attached the versions after the updates. Do these version indicate a successful update?
No.
See blurpy's reply:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg3648412/#msg3648412 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg3648412/#msg3648412)
I tried to downgrade the OS version to the previous one and it showed 7.1. Then I installed the new OS again and it shows 7.2 again.
Ah OK then it might be fine.  :-+
Will check my now years old beta SDS1104X-E SN#14 for its OS version...... it's one of the earliest HW versions.
Providing you now have a P3 for the probe menu, a Time/Date and logging and Counter in Utility the full update was successful.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on September 03, 2021, 10:44:27 pm
I see the new options and Wi-Fi stopped working. Just version 7.2 instead of 8.2 looks strange.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 03, 2021, 11:01:09 pm
I see the new options and Wi-Fi stopped working. Just version 7.2 instead of 8.2 looks strange.
Yes 37R2 breaks WiFi however a public fix is to be released soon and with the 37R3 we got last evening WiFi is working again.  :phew:

It seems older HW models report 7.2 with the latest OS update yet newer production units ex our stock update to 8.2.
This ^ has just been checked.

My old unit reports OS = 7.2 yet all the new features work just fine.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calvin on September 04, 2021, 05:29:10 am
Hi,

7.2 Me2

Calvin
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on September 04, 2021, 07:47:53 am
Time ago I have told where is OS version.
It is second number 
In old time it was displayed just before FW number
Today it is named as  Uboot-OS version:
And there is two number where last one is OS version.


As in image attached.
Where is Uboot version. Where is OS version.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: graybeard on September 06, 2021, 03:34:41 am
Is there any way to save the data from an FFT?   

It would be useful to me to be able to save the FFT after it is smoothed by many averages.  I would like to be able to compare the FFT plots from various configurations of my circuit.

I can save the plots, and assuming I did not touch any for the positioning and/or scaling controls I can compare those, however it would be nice to actually have the frequency/magnitude data in a CSV file.

Chris
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 07, 2021, 08:34:47 am
Is there any way to save the data from an FFT?   

It would be useful to me to be able to save the FFT after it is smoothed by many averages.  I would like to be able to compare the FFT plots from various configurations of my circuit.

I can save the plots, and assuming I did not touch any for the positioning and/or scaling controls I can compare those, however it would be nice to actually have the frequency/magnitude data in a CSV file.

Chris
Email sent.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 15, 2021, 09:34:47 am
New firmware and optional OS update for SDS1104 and 1204X-E models.

Version V6.1.37R2
8.7 MB
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Oscilloscope/SDS1xx4X-E_6.1.37R2_EN.zip

Release notes
Added data logger featuring Sample  and Measurement Logger functions
New App note for the logging functions:
https://siglentna.com/application-note/datalogging-with-the-four-channel-sds1000x-e-oscilloscope-models/
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on September 15, 2021, 04:37:16 pm
I just got an e-mail advertisement or newsletter from Siglent and one of the 'articles' is a blurb about all the features in the new 37R2 firmware.  Are they not aware that it is broken?  They're actively encouraging people to download defective firmware without mentioning that it kills your WiFi.   :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 15, 2021, 08:00:54 pm
I just got an e-mail advertisement or newsletter from Siglent and one of the 'articles' is a blurb about all the features in the new 37R2 firmware.  Are they not aware that it is broken?  They're actively encouraging people to download defective firmware without mentioning that it kills your WiFi.   :-//
Yeah dumb.

Within 10 days of 37R2 release I had a 37R3 beta that fixes WiFi  :phew: but the new NTP feature and WiFi boot staging needs a fix too for it to boot and sync NTP properly as it does for LAN.
Just 12 hrs before your post I sent Siglent an email to check how they were getting on with adding a boot timeout to the NTP code in the hope they would have a 37R* to share with you all but not heard back yet.
I'll keep pushing.........
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 17, 2021, 09:41:21 am
37R5 beta FW in my inbox to test over the weekend.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E - OS Won't Update
Post by: yoctobrad on September 18, 2021, 05:57:48 pm
For what it's worth, I had the same problem trying to update the OS on my SDS1204X-E.  The ADS update went fine, but the unit would not boot from an 'empty' flash drive.  I have several 4 GB drives and I just purchased a brand new 32 GB drive.  None of them worked as a boot drive, even after I deleted everything and EACH drive reported itself as a FAT32 partition to Windows.  After some sleuthing it appears that, unless you specifically format the USB drive as a FAT32 partition prior to copying the OS files over, that it is possible that new drives contain "special" software in the boot sector used for security and other Mfg-specific things that interferes with the boot process on the scope.

After I reformatted one of my 4 GB flash drives as FAT32 and copied the files over, the OS update finished perfectly in about 20 seconds.  I really don't know what was different because nothing changed in the file explorer window in Windows.  I'm using Windows 10, BTW.

Hope that helps!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: modoran on September 19, 2021, 01:13:26 pm
I think it has nothing to do with the flash drive as being bootable or not, just being formatted at FAT32 does the trick.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 21, 2021, 02:30:41 am
37R5 beta FW in my inbox to test over the weekend.  :)
Had a few issues with it still not always WiFi boot syncing the NTP clock especially if you booted time and time again however if left for a few minutes between boots it seemed to sync properly and all seems well.
Why it initially played up IDK.  :-//

Just one little thing that's sort of associated that needs polishing and it should be ready for release but when that might be IDK.
Will do my best to have them push it through.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: badz on September 21, 2021, 12:23:14 pm
Hey,
I have just updated to the latest firmware and OSV2.
Now when I connect wifi dongle it says wifi device connected but I do not have wifi action in menu, it just dissapeared.
Network interface available now is only LAN. TL725N does not turn green when I plug in.
Anyone had this problem?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: DBMandrake on September 21, 2021, 06:30:49 pm
Hey,
I have just updated to the latest firmware and OSV2.
Now when I connect wifi dongle it says wifi device connected but I do not have wifi action in menu, it just dissapeared.
Network interface available now is only LAN. TL725N does not turn green when I plug in.
Anyone had this problem?
Yes, everyone. :)

Check a few posts further back in this thread where it is talked about...

Downgrade to 6.1.35R2 for now if you need WiFi working.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: masterx81 on September 21, 2021, 09:58:21 pm
37R5 beta FW in my inbox to test over the weekend.  :)
Had a few issues with it still not always WiFi boot syncing the NTP clock especially if you booted time and time again however if left for a few minutes between boots it seemed to sync properly and all seems well.
Why it initially played up IDK.  :-//

Just one little thing that's sort of associated that needs polishing and it should be ready for release but when that might be IDK.
Will do my best to have them push it through.  :popcorn:
Have you checked if DHCP is working now? In my network i like to use dhcp with reservation instead of fixed ip addressing...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 21, 2021, 10:50:54 pm
37R5 beta FW in my inbox to test over the weekend.  :)
Had a few issues with it still not always WiFi boot syncing the NTP clock especially if you booted time and time again however if left for a few minutes between boots it seemed to sync properly and all seems well.
Why it initially played up IDK.  :-//

Just one little thing that's sort of associated that needs polishing and it should be ready for release but when that might be IDK.
Will do my best to have them push it through.  :popcorn:
Have you checked if DHCP is working now? In my network i like to use dhcp with reservation instead of fixed ip addressing...
It is although not quite like I was expecting.

WiFi connection:
Change IP to an address where conflict is almost guaranteed then Save....DHCP = OFF
DHCP = ON ....IP returns to previous setting and one given some weeks back where any IP conflict would be very unlikely.

Will forward this info.  :horse:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: masterx81 on September 22, 2021, 05:50:17 am
Seem that at best is ignoring the dhcp lease time. Now that have the current time via ntp would be easy to know when do a new request after the lease time expire. Another approach (that not require storing the last dhcp request) would be a new request every boot, then doing a renew when the lease time expires. This need only a variable in ram counting the seconds from the last renew
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on September 22, 2021, 08:47:11 am
A DHCP lease renewal is actually initiated after 50% of the time has expired. At this point, if successful, the lease time is reset to zero.

So in theory a device can keep an IP for a very long period if the renewal is successful during the 50% to end period.

Even after the expiry period, the same IP can still be assigned if it wasn’t used by another device. So it can appear to be ‘fixed’, but is actually just not being re-used by something else. 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on September 22, 2021, 11:03:10 am
It is although not quite like I was expecting.

WiFi connection:
Change IP to an address where conflict is almost guaranteed then Save....DHCP = OFF
DHCP = ON ....IP returns to previous setting and one given some weeks back where any IP conflict would be very unlikely.

Will forward this info.  :horse:

Sometimes I get the feeling that tautech should be in the developer's team... don't know why...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 28, 2021, 12:27:25 pm
New firmware and optional OS update for SDS1104 and 1204X-E models.

Version V6.1.37R2
8.7 MB
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Oscilloscope/SDS1xx4X-E_6.1.37R2_EN.zip

Release notes
Added data logger featuring Sample  and Measurement Logger functions
New App note for the logging functions:
https://siglentna.com/application-note/datalogging-with-the-four-channel-sds1000x-e-oscilloscope-models/
There's also an updated manual with the new Logging and NTP features detailed.
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/document/SDS1000X_E_SDS1000X_U_UserManual_EN.pdf
P202 and P217 respectively.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: DBMandrake on September 28, 2021, 03:08:15 pm
I can't say I checked this in previous firmware versions as I've only had my unit for a short time and updated the firmware soon after getting it, but on the latest firmware my 8GB USB thumb drive is not detected if it is already plugged in when the device boots, I have to plug it in after it has booted. (Or unplug it then plug it back in again, after I realise it is not detecting it)

Is anyone else having a similar problem ? Not the end of the world, but it is a little annoying as I like to have a thumb drive plugged into the rear port out of the way but then have to fiddle around removing it and reinserting it if I want to actually use it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on September 28, 2021, 03:55:44 pm
I actually prefer to keep scopes plugged into network, and for screen captures, just take a snapshot from web interface directly on a PC... That is where I take it in the end eventually anyways..
If I recall correctly this was already reported..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: DBMandrake on September 28, 2021, 04:59:35 pm
I actually prefer to keep scopes plugged into network, and for screen captures, just take a snapshot from web interface directly on a PC... That is where I take it in the end eventually anyways..
If I recall correctly this was already reported..
Yes, I use the screen capture feature in the web interface too - when it's sitting on my desk beside the computer where Ethernet is available. ;)

Everywhere else I need to use a thumb drive - especially given that the current firmware version has broken the WiFi... and so far I've actually used the scope more away from its usual desk (including outside on a car) than I have on the desk with Ethernet available.

So a reliably working USB save function is still important to me. Having a dedicated thumb drive plugged in out of the way at the back so its always ready to press print at a moments notice is useful, so it's a little annoying that I have to unplug and reconnect the drive every time the scope is powered up.

They seem to be missing some pretty obvious problems in this recent firmware version - how did they not notice WiFi was broken for example ? No regression testing, that's how...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: e0ne199 on September 29, 2021, 06:28:00 am
anything new with the buggy firmware?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MT on September 29, 2021, 11:56:14 am
Is there going to be a fix for Ch2 colors in the future? perhaps i should get purple plastic rings instead. :D

Edit: On 6.1.35R2 when all 4 channels are active the trigger channel source soft button randomly time-wise dont show the new selected source.
        If then pressing slope soft button it "some times" updates the display to the correctly selected trigger channel.

Will the statistics mode in a upgrade be fully programmable? so one can select exactly what one want to see and nothing else?
That would provide 7 independent measurements per CH on user terms and not the automatic additions as per 6.1.35R2, assume its the same for 6.1.37R2
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rauldm on September 30, 2021, 10:14:20 pm
After firmware update wifi doesn't work, only it recognize the wifi adapter but, I can't configure because is not show menu items for wifi.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rauldm on September 30, 2021, 10:37:02 pm
Where I can get the new beta version?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: DBMandrake on September 30, 2021, 10:45:40 pm
Where I can get the new beta version?
Probably not available outside beta testers and it may introduce new bugs of its own, after all it's still a beta...  :)

You can downgrade the firmware to 6.1.35R2 for now - it's still available on the firmware download page. I've tested WiFi on 6.1.35R2 and it's working if you need WiFi more than the new features added in 6.1.37R2.

As long as you run a calibration after a firmware change it seems to be possible to freely downgrade and upgrade the firmware on this scope without any issues. (None that I've seen anyway)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rauldm on September 30, 2021, 11:32:53 pm
Ok, good point, I think must wait for new error free release, new characteristics are very interesants, I like the clock function but I think would be better a real time clock, without internet no clock.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on October 04, 2021, 06:32:14 pm
Is anyone using the new counter function?  It appears not to work the way I would expect--it gives you the option of selecting any active channel--and changes the color of the 'Frequency' annunciation to match, but won't actually indicate anything unless the trigger source is that channel.  I'm not sure how that is a helpful feature...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on October 05, 2021, 04:03:52 pm
To re-assure some of those needing the WiFi functionality, a fix is on the way (though I don't have a timescale)

I was recently given a beta version of 37R5 to test the WiFi menu fix, and it worked ok. Th only problem was it reset the NTP auto settings to off, but once toggled back on, they work as expected.

My personal issue, was that the special character $ was not working within the WiFi password (PSK), but I'd had that issue since first buying a WiFi dongle for the unit a long time ago.

It turns out that the $ can be used at the end of an SSID or PSK, but not at the beginning or in the middle.

I was told that all issues around special characters were resolved, so embarked on a test to see which other characters work. My results are below, based on a British keyboard mapping.

Green - It Works.
Red - It Fails.

(Please do not ask for a copy of 37R5, I can't release it, and there may be a further update anyway).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Neutrion on October 07, 2021, 03:29:12 pm
Just because we seems to have an early Firmware-Christmas time with the new features, I would like to post my wishes to Siglent Jesus before all the issues gets ironed out:

Could we just get back the mysteriously blinking stanby LED?

I know that there were some people like Bitluni on youtube who did not like it, but actually apart from the fact that I like that kind of blinking it was very useful:
Without it there is almost no way of knowing  just by the looks that, whether the scope is plugged in when turned off, or that the outlet into which it is plugged in actually getting power. It still consumes 4W so in the energy bill,  the LED would not make any difference, and because the lack of a HW switch one always has to check whether it is plugged in or not, or check if the outlet is switched in or not.
And not just  the high standby consumption which makes it a bad idea to leave plugged in, but also the more stress on the components.
So we lost a useful function because some people were annoyed by the aesthetics, however, it is strange that people get annoyed in a lab full of diplays and lights, by the one single slowly and quiet discretely pulsating single LED.
Even if there are folks who sleep in one room with the scope, the pulling of the plug or turning off the outlet is good general practice, especially because of its pretty high standby consumption.

If this topic would divide people much, and there is no option to set this parameter in the options menu in the scope, only in the FW, it would take only 3 min. for Siglent to have a blinking and a non blinking FW version with no difference in other parameters.

 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: DBMandrake on October 07, 2021, 03:40:22 pm
Could we just get back the mysteriously blinking stanby LED?

I know that there were some people like Bitluni on youtube who did not like it, but actually apart from the fact that I like that kind of blinking it was very useful:
Without it there is almost no way of knowing  just by the looks that, whether the scope is plugged in when turned off, or that the outlet into which it is plugged in actually getting power. It still consumes 4W so in the energy bill,  the LED would not make any difference, and because the lack of a HW switch one always has to check whether it is plugged in or not, or check if the outlet is switched in or not.
Oh please god no...  :--

I can't think of a worse feature than having a flashing power light when the scope is turned off. That would be reason enough for me to never update the firmware. If they were to ever add something like this it would need to be a configuration option in the preferences.

My house is full of enough flashing lights (AV cabinet, ethernet switches etc) as it is, and it's located on a shelf in a room that doubles as a spare bedroom.

By the way standby power on mine measures 1.5 - 2 watts not 4 watts.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Neutrion on October 07, 2021, 04:13:45 pm
It was slowly blinking, not like a modem. Like a newer Hotpoint washers "start" LED.
But that is why I mentioned the possible second FW version, if this is a low level stuff. We do not know how many people like it or hate it when pulsating.
Checked again the consumption of mine: 4 Watt. HW version 01-05.
Some people like it like this, some like that, would be almost no extra work to have everyone pleased.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on October 07, 2021, 04:38:02 pm
I can't think of a worse feature than having a flashing power light when the scope is turned off. That would be reason enough for me to never update the firmware.

Then you lack imagination!  https://www.hackster.io/news/even-xzibit-would-appreciate-this-pimped-out-liquid-cooled-18k-oscilloscope-1536722378b5 (https://www.hackster.io/news/even-xzibit-would-appreciate-this-pimped-out-liquid-cooled-18k-oscilloscope-1536722378b5)

I think the flashing soft-power button is a good idea because it reminds me to shut off the hard power switch on the back....that I can't seem to find.  Oh wait.  :--
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Ringmodulator on October 07, 2021, 07:49:26 pm

Please  please NO blinking powerbutton when switched off!

 :--
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rauldm on October 09, 2021, 05:02:31 am
I have a very old tektronix tds3000b and agilent dsox2002, this scopes has very good cursors, you can change units, from time to phase, I have also math mode with equation editor I think can be nice feature, math mode in this scope is very basic.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on October 09, 2021, 08:34:04 am
I have a very old tektronix tds3000b and agilent dsox2002, this scopes has very good cursors, you can change units, from time to phase, I have also math mode with equation editor I think can be nice feature, math mode in this scope is very basic.
It is but how much can you do with just the Multifunction control in a $500 DSO ?
Do your scopes have 1Mpt FFT ?

If we step up into a similar class to what you have it's a totally different story, 2Mpt FFT, a substantial amount of Math types and a Math Formula editor. The touch and mouse control allows for substantially more complexity.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Neutrion on October 09, 2021, 01:52:54 pm
So did anyone else  measured the standby currend?
DBMandrake: What is your HW version?

Other issue which I would like to doublecheck with others:
Did you notice that if mem depth above 700k is selected, the system seems to be bogged down a littlebit?
So the display update will slow down and have small glitches. Not sure if it's my scope or just the processor is getting to its limit. Best way to test it it, to not to have triggered on anything, just let the noise magnified a bit. Up until about 700k thedisplay update is almost like an analog scope. Without glitches.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MT on October 09, 2021, 02:55:03 pm
It was slowly blinking, not like a modem. Like a newer Hotpoint washers "start" LED.
But that is why I mentioned the possible second FW version, if this is a low level stuff. We do not know how many people like it or hate it when pulsating.
Checked again the consumption of mine: 4 Watt. HW version 01-05.
Some people like it like this, some like that, would be almost no extra work to have everyone pleased.

God grief 4W! Btw the entire panel should blink, like a disco, not just a single led!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: C.J.S. on October 09, 2021, 04:17:36 pm
So did anyone else  measured the standby currend?
DBMandrake: What is your HW version?
FYI I have the SDS1104X-E ("upgraded" to SDS1204X-E), HW version 01-04, firmware version 6.1.37R2.
I have measured a standby power consumption of 4.3W drawn from the 230V AC wall outlet, with only the power button blinking. This power was measured with an "Voltcraft EKM 265" AC mains power meter. I find this 4.3W quite a lot, considering that the same power meter measures 2.0W for my desktop PC in sleep mode, and 1.0W for the same desktop PC when shut down.

This 4.3W is in line with the 4W that you have measured, taking into account that AC mains power meters may not be very accurate when measuring low power levels.
This also makes me wonder if the 1.5 - 2W power consumption that DBMandrake has measured is correct.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: blurpy on October 09, 2021, 05:27:41 pm
Mine measures 4W in standby as well. Hardware version 01-04.

My vote goes to no blinking power button as well. It's just awful.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Neutrion on October 10, 2021, 11:32:53 am
So did anyone else  measured the standby currend?
DBMandrake: What is your HW version?
FYI I have the SDS1104X-E ("upgraded" to SDS1204X-E), HW version 01-04, firmware version 6.1.37R2.
I have measured a standby power consumption of 4.3W drawn from the 230V AC wall outlet, with only the power button blinking. This power was measured with an "Voltcraft EKM 265" AC mains power meter. I find this 4.3W quite a lot, considering that the same power meter measures 2.0W for my desktop PC in sleep mode, and 1.0W for the same desktop PC when shut down.

This 4.3W is in line with the 4W that you have measured, taking into account that AC mains power meters may not be very accurate when measuring low power levels.
This also makes me wonder if the 1.5 - 2W power consumption that DBMandrake has measured is correct.

Thanks for the measurement for both of you! Either Mandrake remembers wrong, or has an even newer HW version.

So you have the newest FW but your power button still blinking?
And yes its a lot, but I don't mind it actually, because sometimes the low staby current is reached with very dubious measures, which can lead to an early failing of the powersupply. I just whant to have a warning to know  that it is not plugged in when turned off.


Anyone else about the scope getting a bit sluggish with higher mem depth? When i turn out all the measurements, it improves by the way, but still not perfect.

Oh one more wish: In persistance mode, some less than one second values, It might be easy to implement.

I can't think of a worse feature than having a flashing power light when the scope is turned off. That would be reason enough for me to never update the firmware.

Then you lack imagination!  https://www.hackster.io/news/even-xzibit-would-appreciate-this-pimped-out-liquid-cooled-18k-oscilloscope-1536722378b5 (https://www.hackster.io/news/even-xzibit-would-appreciate-this-pimped-out-liquid-cooled-18k-oscilloscope-1536722378b5)

I think the flashing soft-power button is a good idea because it reminds me to shut off the hard power switch on the back....that I can't seem to find.  Oh wait.  :--
So do you at least suport a hardware switch in the new FW?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: C.J.S. on October 10, 2021, 02:28:15 pm
So you have the newest FW but your power button still blinking?
Yes, that is correct. So far I have used three different firmware versions, and all three showed the blinking power button in standby mode.  And since this scope does not have a hard AC mains switch, a blinking power button in standby mode is fine with me. I think you and me agree on this. I would be OK though with a software option for disabling the blinking power button.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Neutrion on October 10, 2021, 04:06:29 pm
Huh, I am not completely alone!  ^-^
I tought that actually the blinking was gone recently because of the new FW people installed, but than it's might be programmed in somwhere else...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: DEV001 on October 10, 2021, 04:56:13 pm
I personally am not a fan of flashing LEDs on powered off devices but I would imagine Siglent could implement the power   LED state option via the settings menu. This is assuming that you can override it via settings files or flash variables.

Hypothetical example settings:

Power Button LED Standby Indicator

Enable: ON / OFF [Default OFF]

If (Enabled)

Pulse LED Delay:       x to (max limit) seconds 
Pulse LED Intensity:   x to 100 %

The values are just placeholders and could be anything supported by the scope.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Neutrion on October 11, 2021, 06:42:27 pm
Yes, it would be indeed really nice like that!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: acha666 on October 13, 2021, 01:02:26 pm
Hi everyone. I have just buoght a SDS1104X-C(almost equals to SDS1104X-E). Does anyone have the wavegen hardware(SAG1021I) or logic probe hardware(SLA1016)? I wonder if they can be made by ourselves.

TIA
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on October 13, 2021, 01:14:02 pm
Hi everyone. I have just buoght a SDS1104X-C(almost equals to SDS1104X-E). Does anyone have the wavegen hardware(SAG1021I) or logic probe hardware(SLA1016)? I wonder if they can be made by ourselves.

TIA

I have an SLA1016, but you may find they are difficult to replicate:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/schematics-of-photos-of-sla1016-wanted-logic-analyzer-for-siglent-scope/msg2751486/#msg2751486 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/schematics-of-photos-of-sla1016-wanted-logic-analyzer-for-siglent-scope/msg2751486/#msg2751486)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on October 13, 2021, 02:57:08 pm
The flashing power button is a feature of the power supply, not the firmware.

Professionals, especially the ones working in big research labs, dont like flashing lights, because these usually indicate something is wrong.

Consequently, Siglent changed this behavior for the SDS5000X at some point. As far as i know, the SDS2000X Plus has never been shipped with that feature - even though I still have one with a flashing power button, just because it's a pre-production unit. The new SDS6000A also doesn't have that, of course.

I did not know that Siglent changed it for the SDS1000 series as well - but if so, then it's only consequent.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: acha666 on October 15, 2021, 08:59:14 am
 |O
thanks all the same
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: C.J.S. on October 15, 2021, 05:13:18 pm
The flashing power button is a feature of the power supply, not the firmware.
[....]
I did not know that Siglent changed it for the SDS1000 series as well.
I think there is a misunderstanding here. To the best of my knowledge Siglent has not changed the behavior of the power button in the SDS1000 series. I have used the last three firmware versions on my SDS1104X-E (HW revision 01-04), and all three show the slow blinking power button in standby mode. Where it was said that this behavior has changed?

EDIT: OK, from the reply of DBMandrake below it becomes clear that the behavior of the power button in standby mode was changed in HW revision 01-05.
This confirms the statement of Performa01 that the blinking or not blinking power button in standby mode is determined by the HW revision (i.e. not by the firmware).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: DBMandrake on October 15, 2021, 06:26:38 pm
So did anyone else  measured the standby currend?
DBMandrake: What is your HW version?
FYI I have the SDS1104X-E ("upgraded" to SDS1204X-E), HW version 01-04, firmware version 6.1.37R2.
I have measured a standby power consumption of 4.3W drawn from the 230V AC wall outlet, with only the power button blinking. This power was measured with an "Voltcraft EKM 265" AC mains power meter. I find this 4.3W quite a lot, considering that the same power meter measures 2.0W for my desktop PC in sleep mode, and 1.0W for the same desktop PC when shut down.

This 4.3W is in line with the 4W that you have measured, taking into account that AC mains power meters may not be very accurate when measuring low power levels.
This also makes me wonder if the 1.5 - 2W power consumption that DBMandrake has measured is correct.
My unit is hardware revision 01-05 (only about 2 months old, manufacture date in the last 6 months from memory) and there must be differences with the power supply as the power button does not flash in standby no matter what firmware version I use. (I've used 3 different versions during testing)

What temperature was the unit at ? I find with mine that standby power is higher when the unit is hot - eg just switched off after it has been running for a while, but after a while (maybe 15 minutes or so) the long-term standby power drops down to about 2 watts.

I wonder if people here are just taking a quick measurement and not leaving the unit to cool down and reach thermal equilibrium ?


Mine measures 4W in standby as well. Hardware version 01-04.

My vote goes to no blinking power button as well. It's just awful.

So you have the newest FW but your power button still blinking?
Yes, that is correct. So far I have used three different firmware versions, and all three showed the blinking power button in standby mode.  And since this scope does not have a hard AC mains switch, a blinking power button in standby mode is fine with me. I think you and me agree on this. I would be OK though with a software option for disabling the blinking power button.

No flashing power button on my 01-05 hardware revision, looks like there has been a hardware change to remove the flashing power light on standby, so potentially this cannot be changed in firmware for older units.

I'm really glad that my later hardware revision doesn't have the flashing light as I'd find it extremely annoying.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: C.J.S. on October 15, 2021, 08:54:27 pm
My unit is hardware revision 01-05 (only about 2 months old, manufacture date in the last 6 months from memory) and there must be differences with the power supply as the power button does not flash in standby no matter what firmware version I use. (I've used 3 different versions during testing).
What temperature was the unit at ? I find with mine that standby power is higher when the unit is hot - eg just switched off after it has been running for a while, but after a while (maybe 15 minutes or so) the long-term standby power drops down to about 2 watts.
[....]
No flashing power button on my 01-05 hardware revision, looks like there has been a hardware change to remove the flashing power light on standby, so potentially this cannot be changed in firmware for older units.

OK, so apparently HW revision 01-05 has a modified power supply in which the blinking of the power button has been removed. And it looks like also the power consumption in standby mode has been reduced from circa 4W in HW revision 01-04 and earlier (I keep measuring 4.3W, also after cooling down) to circa 2W in HW revision 01-05. Good for you!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rauldm on October 16, 2021, 03:35:10 pm
Ok, I prefer a Math editor over Frequency counter , for example.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Neutrion on October 17, 2021, 11:12:57 am
The flashing power button is a feature of the power supply, not the firmware.

Professionals, especially the ones working in big research labs, dont like flashing lights, because these usually indicate something is wrong.

Consequently, Siglent changed this behavior for the SDS5000X at some point. As far as i know, the SDS2000X Plus has never been shipped with that feature - even though I still have one with a flashing power button, just because it's a pre-production unit. The new SDS6000A also doesn't have that, of course.

I did not know that Siglent changed it for the SDS1000 series as well - but if so, then it's only consequent.

Thanks for the clarification! (Although because of this statement I am rewarding you with the Spaßbremse of the Week Award because of smashing my hopes. :)  )

Do you think that even the slowly blinking would annoy the professionals? Maybe some components would be easy to change to solve my problem?
By the way, your in-depth review of the scope is amazing especialy for beginners, not sure if this kind of scope behaviour data is aviable for higher end scopes, or one has to measure himself every parameter.


My unit is hardware revision 01-05 (only about 2 months old, manufacture date in the last 6 months from memory) and there must be differences with the power supply as the power button does not flash in standby no matter what firmware version I use. (I've used 3 different versions during testing)

What temperature was the unit at ? I find with mine that standby power is higher when the unit is hot - eg just switched off after it has been running for a while, but after a while (maybe 15 minutes or so) the long-term standby power drops down to about 2 watts.

I wonder if people here are just taking a quick measurement and not leaving the unit to cool down and reach thermal equilibrium ?



Mesauring it right now. Until than: Regarding your scope being 6 month old, I wonder if Siglent is not affected at all by the chip shortage? So far everything seems to be aviable.

I would be also interested, if anyone opened the Hw version 01-05 and the other versions: Is there any difference in the powersupply? Are the Rubycon caps still there? I don't want to void the warranty on mine but maybe someone in the US where the laws are diferen could check this.

So far 4W, going to notify the forum if it changes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MT on October 17, 2021, 05:53:35 pm

No flashing power button on my 01-05 hardware revision, looks like there has been a hardware change to remove the flashing power light on standby, so potentially this cannot be changed in firmware for older units.

I'm really glad that my later hardware revision doesn't have the flashing light as I'd find it extremely annoying.

Interesting, from 4 W to 2W , on my 01-5 HW rev (FPGA 2019-11 15 rev) when turning the unit off the pow button is left glowing ever so faint, but in a dark'end room it clearly can be seen! Neat!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on October 17, 2021, 06:05:18 pm
Do you think that even the slowly blinking would annoy the professionals? Maybe some components would be easy to change to solve my problem?

Well, the SDS5000X has been evaluated by quite a number of engineers from various big research labs and this is where the complaint (together with the reasoning) came from. Even though such labs will usually not purchase oscilloscopes with less than 1 GHz bandwidth, even for less demanding tasks, Siglent still decided to apply the change to the lower end models as well - if only to have the same behavior for all models.

I honestly do not know what the hardware difference is and I think this would have to be clarified with the manufacturer of the power supply.

Maybe you find someone in the forum who owns a HW Rev. 1.04 (should be the vast majority) and hates the flashing standby light, hence would be willing to exchange their unit with yours? Thankfully, in modern DSOs there is no such thing like an aging CRT... ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: dophuc on October 19, 2021, 05:11:36 am
Hello everyone

(Sorry about my English  :-[)
My scope SDS1104x-e has hardware version 01-05, firmware 6.1.37R2, Uboot OS 8.2 (V2). Firmware 6.1.37R2 adds some nice functions, but wifi function doesn't work |O. I suggest a solution while waiting for Signent to fix it. I connect the 1104x-e to wifi access point with a network cable, then my computer connects to the access point via wifi. Now I can connect the computer to my scope "wirelessly" similar to the connection using wifi usb :D.
(https://sv6.anhsieuviet.com/2021/10/19/20211019_023520.jpg)
(https://sv6.anhsieuviet.com/2021/10/19/20211019_023610.jpg)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Neutrion on October 21, 2021, 05:12:34 pm
Do you think that even the slowly blinking would annoy the professionals? Maybe some components would be easy to change to solve my problem?

Well, the SDS5000X has been evaluated by quite a number of engineers from various big research labs and this is where the complaint (together with the reasoning) came from. Even though such labs will usually not purchase oscilloscopes with less than 1 GHz bandwidth, even for less demanding tasks, Siglent still decided to apply the change to the lower end models as well - if only to have the same behavior for all models.

I honestly do not know what the hardware difference is and I think this would have to be clarified with the manufacturer of the power supply.

Maybe you find someone in the forum who owns a HW Rev. 1.04 (should be the vast majority) and hates the flashing standby light, hence would be willing to exchange their unit with yours? Thankfully, in modern DSOs there is no such thing like an aging CRT... ;)
Well, definitely no aging CRT :) but I would loose my warranty. Otherwise I would have opened ip up and look for the PS differences compared to that one reviewed by Dave. What do you think about my other question of the scope being bogged down, with full memory used? Especially with measurements enabled.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MrTick on October 27, 2021, 10:51:15 am
Siglent has just released the 6.1.37R6 FW, that seems to have the NTP+WiFi issue fixed :)
https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds1000x-e-series (https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds1000x-e-series)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: DBMandrake on October 27, 2021, 11:41:48 am
Siglent has just released the 6.1.37R6 FW, that seems to have the NTP+WiFi issue fixed :)
https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds1000x-e-series (https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds1000x-e-series)
What NTP issue ? NTP is working for me in 6.1.37R2....

But I'm glad WiFi is fixed though. Will update it tonight. :)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: dophuc on October 27, 2021, 01:53:07 pm
My scope's NTP is working fine at version 6.1.37R2. I just upgraded to 6.1.37R6; WiFi now works perfectly  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on October 27, 2021, 02:36:14 pm
Unfortunately it hasn't fixed the use of a $ in the PSIK, unless it is used at the end.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: sulzer on October 27, 2021, 03:02:38 pm
In addition, this firmware does not support a hidden SSID.
The wi-fi function works but unfortunately the network must be visible. It's too bad !
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: DBMandrake on October 27, 2021, 03:53:00 pm
Why do you need a hidden network ?

Hidden networks aren't any more secure (it's still possible to find the SSID by promiscuous snooping of packets) and they also reduce battery life of devices that connect to them, as the client device has to keep sending out probes to find the network instead of being able to listen for SSID broadcasts to detect the network.

This in itself is somewhat insecure because saving a hidden network on a device like a phone means everywhere you go away from that network it is sending out probes looking for that network advertising the fact that a network of that name exists...  ;)

There are a surprising number of devices which do not work well with hidden networks, Siglent are not alone here.

Hidden SSID's are right up there with MAC address filtering for "things that seem like a good idea but actually aren't". If your reason for the SSID being hidden is "security", please just stop.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: blurpy on October 27, 2021, 04:21:59 pm
Glad they got wifi fixed :)

They uploaded a new version of the OSv2 zip as well. The content is the same except for the instructions, which seem to be updated based on all the confusion in this thread.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: DBMandrake on October 27, 2021, 06:15:01 pm
Glad they got wifi fixed :)

They uploaded a new version of the OSv2 zip as well. The content is the same except for the instructions, which seem to be updated based on all the confusion in this thread.
Updated mine tonight and unfortunately WiFi is still not usable.

Yes, the UI options to connect to WiFi that were completely missing in the previous version have returned, but I can't get a usable WiFi connection.

Sometimes it says connected, usually it says WLAN connection failed. Even when it does say connected I'm unable to ping it let alone log into the web interface.

It's about 1.5 metres from the base station...

* Full disclosure - I'm not using the "official" wireless adaptor however it is a TP-Link TL-WN725N which did work with version 6.1.35R2, although to be honest the connection was never very reliable or fast.

Oh well back to Ethernet for me... I hope others have better luck!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: borjam on October 27, 2021, 06:19:56 pm
Hidden SSID's are right up there with MAC address filtering for "things that seem like a good idea but actually aren't". If your reason for the SSID being hidden is "security", please just stop.
Indeed, hidden SSIDs are bad security theatre.

You really want your neighbors to know you have a network on channel X so that they can avoid it.

Use a decent password. Avoid old authentication protocols and you will be fine. If you have old devices that require an older, insecure standard, create a cage SSID for them and separate them from your real network.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on October 27, 2021, 06:25:18 pm
Unfortunately it hasn't fixed the use of a $ in the PSIK, unless it is used at the end.
Are the special character tables you sent me still accurate/unchanged ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on October 27, 2021, 06:27:23 pm
Unfortunately it hasn't fixed the use of a $ in the PSIK, unless it is used at the end.
Are the special character tables you sent me still accurate/unchanged ?

I only checked the $ character, I’m assuming the others still work. I can do a random check if needed?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on October 27, 2021, 06:34:43 pm
Unfortunately it hasn't fixed the use of a $ in the PSIK, unless it is used at the end.
Are the special character tables you sent me still accurate/unchanged ?

I only checked the $ character, I’m assuming the others still work. I can do a random check if needed?
Thanks, yes please check some as we are posting about the special characters problem on Siglents forum again.
Email if you like.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: DBMandrake on October 27, 2021, 06:42:33 pm
Thought I'd mention this version doesn't fix the issue where USB thumb drives won't auto-mount on boot, not that I was expecting it to.

Every time I boot up with a thumb drive still connected I have to unplug it and plug it back in again before it is recognised. Is there any way to feed this issue back to Siglent and does anyone else have the same issue ?

It's an 8GB Sandisk Cruzer which works fine for doing firmware updates and saving screenshots as long as it is plugged in after booting not before booting...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on October 27, 2021, 06:51:31 pm
@tautech No problem, I'll go through them tomorrow, and pass back the results.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on October 27, 2021, 07:19:39 pm
What do you think about my other question of the scope being bogged down, with full memory used? Especially with measurements enabled.
Well, in contrast to some other DSO brands/models, the SDS1000X-E series always uses the full record length for everything, including automatic measurements.

For example, if you acquire data at 1 GSa/s at a timebase of 1 ms/div, then you get a record length of 14 Mpts which equals the maximum memory you can set. Now every single trigger event causes a 14 Mpts long record that has to be mapped to the screen - this is done with heavy HW support, hence it is still reasonably fast (but would certainly be even faster if there were less data). With mautomatic measurements enabled, the entire record needs to scanned for certain measurements, this is done in software on the ARM core and this takes time. Think of the peak-peak measurement for instance - it has to scan the entire memory to find the correct answer. Also time measurements like signal period, almost the full memory needs to be searched in some cases to find a full period of a low frequency signal.

You can now either limit the max. memory to e.g. 140 kpts, which will reduce the sample rate to 10 MSa/s but also divides the record length by 100 and screen mapping speeds up in any case. For automatic measurements it depends on the specific measurement, but processing time will also be reduced for many of them.

There are DSOs that only use a small secondary buffer of some 64 kpts for display and measurements (Keysight MSOX) or even just the screen memory, which is less than 1 kpts (Rigol DS1000) which means simplicity and speed is paramount, but measurements aren't accurate at times. By contrast, Tek or LeCroy are the "analyzing scopes" that use much larger buffers or even the full memory for final signal processing, but they slow down on long records. Siglent has joined the latter group for several years now. Thanks to adequate processing power, the sowdown isn't dramatic in Siglent scopes though.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: C.J.S. on October 27, 2021, 07:21:59 pm
Updated mine tonight and unfortunately WiFi is still not usable.
Yes, the UI options to connect to WiFi that were completely missing in the previous version have returned, but I can't get a usable WiFi connection.
Sometimes it says connected, usually it says WLAN connection failed. Even when it does say connected I'm unable to ping it let alone log into the web interface.
It's about 1.5 metres from the base station...
* Full disclosure - I'm not using the "official" wireless adaptor however it is a TP-Link TL-WN725N which did work with version 6.1.35R2, although to be honest the connection was never very reliable or fast.
Oh well back to Ethernet for me... I hope others have better luck!

FYI, I just updated firmware on my SDS1204X-E ("upgraded" from SDS1104X-E) from v6.1.35R2 to v6.1.37R6, and remote control using the wifi connection with the scope's web server works fine for me. After the firmware update I needed to re-enter SSID and PSK of the wifi connection. After this was done the wifi connection was working but initially the connection was very slow. But after restarting the scope with the wifi dongle plugged in the wifi connection works fine without delays.

With respect to the TL-WN725N wifi adapter, I know that there are 3 hardware revisions of this adapter (v1, v2 and v3). As far as I understand, v2 uses a different Realtek wifi chip than v1 and v3. I am not sure if all 3 HW revisions of the adapter are supported by the firmware of the SDS1x04X-E.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on October 27, 2021, 07:23:43 pm
Thought I'd mention this version doesn't fix the issue where USB thumb drives won't auto-mount on boot, not that I was expecting it to.

Every time I boot up with a thumb drive still connected I have to unplug it and plug it back in again before it is recognised. Is there any way to feed this issue back to Siglent and does anyone else have the same issue ?

It's an 8GB Sandisk Cruzer which works fine for doing firmware updates and saving screenshots as long as it is plugged in after booting not before booting...
It's normal for USB sticks or any device that's connected not to be reported as connected at boot however for USB, LAN and WiFi their OSD indicators will show after boot in the lowest RH box.

One catch for many after doing an OS update is not removing the OS files from the boot sector of a USB drive where if connected to the scope will run each time the scope is booted.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tubularnut on October 28, 2021, 09:07:26 am
Unfortunately it hasn't fixed the use of a $ in the PSIK, unless it is used at the end.
Are the special character tables you sent me still accurate/unchanged ?

I only checked the $ character, I’m assuming the others still work. I can do a random check if needed?

Thanks, yes please check some as we are posting about the special characters problem on Siglents forum again.
Email if you like.  ;)

Special characters retested for WiFi password on  6.1.37R6
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on October 28, 2021, 09:13:57 am
Unfortunately it hasn't fixed the use of a $ in the PSIK, unless it is used at the end.
Are the special character tables you sent me still accurate/unchanged ?

I only checked the $ character, I’m assuming the others still work. I can do a random check if needed?

Thanks, yes please check some as we are posting about the special characters problem on Siglents forum again.
Email if you like.  ;)

Special characters retested for WiFi password on  6.1.37R6
Thanks, same result as beta 37R5 FW you tested.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: DBMandrake on October 28, 2021, 01:08:31 pm
Thought I'd mention this version doesn't fix the issue where USB thumb drives won't auto-mount on boot, not that I was expecting it to.

Every time I boot up with a thumb drive still connected I have to unplug it and plug it back in again before it is recognised. Is there any way to feed this issue back to Siglent and does anyone else have the same issue ?

It's an 8GB Sandisk Cruzer which works fine for doing firmware updates and saving screenshots as long as it is plugged in after booting not before booting...
It's normal for USB sticks or any device that's connected not to be reported as connected at boot however for USB, LAN and WiFi their OSD indicators will show after boot in the lowest RH box.
It's not just that the icon doesn't appear if I boot the scope with the USB stick already connected, it doesn't mount it either.

If I boot with the USB stick already connected and try the print button for example, it just complains that there is no USB storage device connected. I have to unplug and reconnect the USB stick after boot up for it to work.

This is clearly a bug.
Quote
One catch for many after doing an OS update is not removing the OS files from the boot sector of a USB drive where if connected to the scope will run each time the scope is booted.
Yes I'm aware of this, but this is nothing to do with the USB stick not mounting automatically on boot.

It's not a big deal but it would be nice of them to fix it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: DBMandrake on October 28, 2021, 01:15:14 pm
Updated mine tonight and unfortunately WiFi is still not usable.
Yes, the UI options to connect to WiFi that were completely missing in the previous version have returned, but I can't get a usable WiFi connection.
Sometimes it says connected, usually it says WLAN connection failed. Even when it does say connected I'm unable to ping it let alone log into the web interface.
It's about 1.5 metres from the base station...
* Full disclosure - I'm not using the "official" wireless adaptor however it is a TP-Link TL-WN725N which did work with version 6.1.35R2, although to be honest the connection was never very reliable or fast.
Oh well back to Ethernet for me... I hope others have better luck!

FYI, I just updated firmware on my SDS1204X-E ("upgraded" from SDS1104X-E) from v6.1.35R2 to v6.1.37R6, and remote control using the wifi connection with the scope's web server works fine for me. After the firmware update I needed to re-enter SSID and PSK of the wifi connection. After this was done the wifi connection was working but initially the connection was very slow. But after restarting the scope with the wifi dongle plugged in the wifi connection works fine without delays.
It's unreliable for me. Sometimes it works OK and the web interface is fairly usable. Sometimes it just won't connect or it connects but there is no useful data throughput.

One thing that may be an issue for me is that I have 3 wireless AP's in the house all broadcasting the same SSID's as our internal walls are far too thick to cover the house with one AP. This allows devices to roam between AP's automatically as they move around the house.

Even though one of the AP's is in the same room (about a metre away) from the scope, there's a possibility that the roaming support on the device is poor and it's sometimes connecting to a far away AP and thus not getting a usable signal. I'll need to do some more testing to see if this is the case.

Quote
With respect to the TL-WN725N wifi adapter, I know that there are 3 hardware revisions of this adapter (v1, v2 and v3). As far as I understand, v2 uses a different Realtek wifi chip than v1 and v3. I am not sure if all 3 HW revisions of the adapter are supported by the firmware of the SDS1x04X-E.
I think mine is V3 but I would have to check. It's definitely supported (in as far as there is a driver that loads for it) otherwise it wouldn't work at all as there are only 2 or 3 wifi drivers present in the firmware image.

I have four other wireless adaptors of various models and chipsets and none of them are detected at all.

I don't have the scope in front of me at the moment but I can check via telnet to see which driver is loading for my adaptor - I did look last night but forgot to write down the driver name.

Part of the problem I suspect is its just not a very good adaptor - 2.4Ghz only and an extremely miniature antenna.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on October 28, 2021, 09:05:20 pm
Thought I'd mention this version doesn't fix the issue where USB thumb drives won't auto-mount on boot, not that I was expecting it to.

Every time I boot up with a thumb drive still connected I have to unplug it and plug it back in again before it is recognised. Is there any way to feed this issue back to Siglent and does anyone else have the same issue ?

It's an 8GB Sandisk Cruzer which works fine for doing firmware updates and saving screenshots as long as it is plugged in after booting not before booting...
It's normal for USB sticks or any device that's connected not to be reported as connected at boot however for USB, LAN and WiFi their OSD indicators will show after boot in the lowest RH box.
It's not just that the icon doesn't appear if I boot the scope with the USB stick already connected, it doesn't mount it either.

If I boot with the USB stick already connected and try the print button for example, it just complains that there is no USB storage device connected. I have to unplug and reconnect the USB stick after boot up for it to work.

This is clearly a bug.
Quote
One catch for many after doing an OS update is not removing the OS files from the boot sector of a USB drive where if connected to the scope will run each time the scope is booted.
Yes I'm aware of this, but this is nothing to do with the USB stick not mounting automatically on boot.

It's not a big deal but it would be nice of them to fix it.
No it's your USB stick incompatibility for whatever reasons.  :-//
Below are 2 screenshots both grabbed soon after boot with 2 different USB sticks inserted before boot.
One = no-name 8GB and Strontium 8GB of which I have 2 in constant use for screenshots and FW updates.
Updated mine tonight and unfortunately WiFi is still not usable.
Yes, the UI options to connect to WiFi that were completely missing in the previous version have returned, but I can't get a usable WiFi connection.
Sometimes it says connected, usually it says WLAN connection failed. Even when it does say connected I'm unable to ping it let alone log into the web interface.
It's about 1.5 metres from the base station...
* Full disclosure - I'm not using the "official" wireless adaptor however it is a TP-Link TL-WN725N which did work with version 6.1.35R2, although to be honest the connection was never very reliable or fast.
Oh well back to Ethernet for me... I hope others have better luck!

FYI, I just updated firmware on my SDS1204X-E ("upgraded" from SDS1104X-E) from v6.1.35R2 to v6.1.37R6, and remote control using the wifi connection with the scope's web server works fine for me. After the firmware update I needed to re-enter SSID and PSK of the wifi connection. After this was done the wifi connection was working but initially the connection was very slow. But after restarting the scope with the wifi dongle plugged in the wifi connection works fine without delays.
It's unreliable for me. Sometimes it works OK and the web interface is fairly usable. Sometimes it just won't connect or it connects but there is no useful data throughput.

One thing that may be an issue for me is that I have 3 wireless AP's in the house all broadcasting the same SSID's as our internal walls are far too thick to cover the house with one AP. This allows devices to roam between AP's automatically as they move around the house.

Even though one of the AP's is in the same room (about a metre away) from the scope, there's a possibility that the roaming support on the device is poor and it's sometimes connecting to a far away AP and thus not getting a usable signal. I'll need to do some more testing to see if this is the case.

Quote
With respect to the TL-WN725N wifi adapter, I know that there are 3 hardware revisions of this adapter (v1, v2 and v3). As far as I understand, v2 uses a different Realtek wifi chip than v1 and v3. I am not sure if all 3 HW revisions of the adapter are supported by the firmware of the SDS1x04X-E.
I think mine is V3 but I would have to check. It's definitely supported (in as far as there is a driver that loads for it) otherwise it wouldn't work at all as there are only 2 or 3 wifi drivers present in the firmware image.

I have four other wireless adaptors of various models and chipsets and none of them are detected at all.

I don't have the scope in front of me at the moment but I can check via telnet to see which driver is loading for my adaptor - I did look last night but forgot to write down the driver name.

Part of the problem I suspect is its just not a very good adaptor - 2.4Ghz only and an extremely miniature antenna.
Yet from another close to the house building with a single Router/WiFi AP I still have full signal strength as shown in screenshots.
Signal passes through multiple walls.
Genuine TP Link ***725* dongle Gold version.

Had similar issues to you with a previous modem that were never solved except with a replacement.
Ubiquiti airCube:
https://store.ui.com/collections/operator-airmax-devices/products/aircube-ac-wifi-router


Or you have some WiFi issues/clashes from your multiple AP's that the TP Link dongle and Siglent SW can't manage.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: modoran on October 29, 2021, 07:57:13 am
Having USB stick always inserted works fine for me, it boots with it, show the icon and save screenshots just fine without reinsert every time.  No issue here.  Try to use different stick.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: CharlotteSwiss on October 29, 2021, 08:40:12 am
Is removing-inserting the key a problem? Think that the 1202x-e model often NEVER recognizes the key, and many times when you try to save a screenshot the device crashes. But maybe they are releasing FW for the 4 channel model only and have forgotten about the 2 channel model. Disappointed  :--
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: borjam on October 29, 2021, 11:29:30 am
Is removing-inserting the key a problem? Think that the 1202x-e model often NEVER recognizes the key, and many times when you try to save a screenshot the device crashes. But maybe they are releasing FW for the 4 channel model only and have forgotten about the 2 channel model. Disappointed  :--
I have used different USB keys with the 1202X-E several times and never ran into issues. It just worked.

Have you tried different models? The manufacturers of USB sticks and SD cards have an unprecedented talent to botch specs.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: CharlotteSwiss on October 29, 2021, 11:39:54 am
Is removing-inserting the key a problem? Think that the 1202x-e model often NEVER recognizes the key, and many times when you try to save a screenshot the device crashes. But maybe they are releasing FW for the 4 channel model only and have forgotten about the 2 channel model. Disappointed  :--
I have used different USB keys with the 1202X-E several times and never ran into issues. It just worked.

Have you tried different models? The manufacturers of USB sticks and SD cards have an unprecedented talent to botch specs.

hello Borjam, well found. I have tried about 10 different models of keys, the problem remains. I believe it depends on some "different" chip hardware version on the same model .. Maybe the problems could be for example in a range of serial numbers. I believe yours is prior to mine...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: borjam on October 29, 2021, 11:44:47 am
Is removing-inserting the key a problem? Think that the 1202x-e model often NEVER recognizes the key, and many times when you try to save a screenshot the device crashes. But maybe they are releasing FW for the 4 channel model only and have forgotten about the 2 channel model. Disappointed  :--
I have used different USB keys with the 1202X-E several times and never ran into issues. It just worked.

Have you tried different models? The manufacturers of USB sticks and SD cards have an unprecedented talent to botch specs.

hello Borjam, well found. I have tried about 10 different models of keys, the problem remains. I believe it depends on some "different" chip hardware version on the same model .. Maybe the problems could be for example in a range of serial numbers. I believe yours is prior to mine...

I'm not at home now, I will check later and let you know.  If I forget ping me with a private message or something.

Are you using USB3 keys? Maybe too modern? I will try a USB3 key as well.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: CharlotteSwiss on October 29, 2021, 11:58:18 am
Is removing-inserting the key a problem? Think that the 1202x-e model often NEVER recognizes the key, and many times when you try to save a screenshot the device crashes. But maybe they are releasing FW for the 4 channel model only and have forgotten about the 2 channel model. Disappointed  :--
I have used different USB keys with the 1202X-E several times and never ran into issues. It just worked.

Have you tried different models? The manufacturers of USB sticks and SD cards have an unprecedented talent to botch specs.

hello Borjam, well found. I have tried about 10 different models of keys, the problem remains. I believe it depends on some "different" chip hardware version on the same model .. Maybe the problems could be for example in a range of serial numbers. I believe yours is prior to mine...

I'm not at home now, I will check later and let you know.  If I forget ping me with a private message or something.

Are you using USB3 keys? Maybe too modern? I will try a USB3 key as well.

I don't have usb3 keys, but i am 15 years old and even recent ones (not usb3).  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: borjam on October 30, 2021, 07:54:33 am
Quote
Are you using USB3 keys? Maybe too modern? I will try a USB3 key as well.

I don't have usb3 keys, but i am 15 years old and even recent ones (not usb3).  ;)
OK I was wondering, some newer USB devices may have incompatibility problems with older USB ports.

How are you formatting the keys? I have just plugged a key and I was surprised to see a "removed" message. It wasn't recognized.

Turns out I had used that key for a different purpose and it was formatted with a Unix (FreeBSD) filesystem. After formatting it as FAT. Do not use exFAT, it seems it doesn't work.

@tautech
Note to Siglent: Why don't you add a message warning "incorrect format" instead of just ejecting it and not letting the user know the reason? It can be a hardware problem (even bad USB connector contacts) or a format problems. It would be helpful to know the reason! It would be good to have a format option in the "Utility" menu so that you can make sure the drive is properly formatted.

The drives I have tried work, all of them with a caveat. I have two apparently identical Kingston Data Traveler G4 and one of them shows a "USB flash drive removed" before it gets detected. The rest (more Kingston drives, a very fast drive supplied with a Juniper router, etc) hace worked.

The key, probably, format.

- MBR partition table. It supports GUID but it's better to be safe.

- FAT format, never exFAT.


How are you formatting the drives? Also, the larger I have tried is 32 GB.

My scope runs UBoot version 5-0, FPGA 2019-06-12, Hardware version 0c-01, Serial SDS1EBAX1R1809.

And I forgot. You can try whether the USB interface works by plugging an optical mouse. If the mouse doesn't emit light probably the USB port is broken/defective. I have tried with an Apple mouse and despite not being recognized it was powered on (red light underneath).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: CharlotteSwiss on October 30, 2021, 09:47:12 am
thanks borjam  ;)
I have tried various formatting, sometimes it goes and sometimes it doesn't. Mine is newer than yours. Once the mouse is connected, it turns on. If you try the penultimate FW, you will see that the key is recognized much faster and there will be no problem  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Neutrion on October 31, 2021, 04:15:07 pm
What do you think about my other question of the scope being bogged down, with full memory used? Especially with measurements enabled.
Well, in contrast to some other DSO brands/models, the SDS1000X-E series always uses the full record length for everything, including automatic measurements.

For example, if you acquire data at 1 GSa/s at a timebase of 1 ms/div, then you get a record length of 14 Mpts which equals the maximum memory you can set. Now every single trigger event causes a 14 Mpts long record that has to be mapped to the screen - this is done with heavy HW support, hence it is still reasonably fast (but would certainly be even faster if there were less data). With mautomatic measurements enabled, the entire record needs to scanned for certain measurements, this is done in software on the ARM core and this takes time. Think of the peak-peak measurement for instance - it has to scan the entire memory to find the correct answer. Also time measurements like signal period, almost the full memory needs to be searched in some cases to find a full period of a low frequency signal.

You can now either limit the max. memory to e.g. 140 kpts, which will reduce the sample rate to 10 MSa/s but also divides the record length by 100 and screen mapping speeds up in any case. For automatic measurements it depends on the specific measurement, but processing time will also be reduced for many of them.

There are DSOs that only use a small secondary buffer of some 64 kpts for display and measurements (Keysight MSOX) or even just the screen memory, which is less than 1 kpts (Rigol DS1000) which means simplicity and speed is paramount, but measurements aren't accurate at times. By contrast, Tek or LeCroy are the "analyzing scopes" that use much larger buffers or even the full memory for final signal processing, but they slow down on long records. Siglent has joined the latter group for several years now. Thanks to adequate processing power, the sowdown isn't dramatic in Siglent scopes though.

Thanks again for the detailed explanation! So is it normal what I see? It doesn't annoy me too much just wanted to doublecheck it with others. (After mine has a higher standby consumption than that of others, you never know ...)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 1audio on November 01, 2021, 05:09:59 am
I upgraded to the latest firmware and the WIFI is working with the Trendnet module. However the NTP is not wanting to work. Is there a known to work NTP server in North America I can try? The usual NIST and Google servers don't seem to work. They were funky before with a wired connection but not working at all wired or wireless now.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 01, 2021, 06:41:32 am
I upgraded to the latest firmware and the WIFI is working with the Trendnet module. However the NTP is not wanting to work. Is there a known to work NTP server in North America I can try? The usual NIST and Google servers don't seem to work. They were funky before with a wired connection but not working at all wired or wireless now.
Based on your location from your profile here are some NTP servers close to you:
https://commons.lbl.gov/display/itdivision/NTP+-+Network+Time+Protocol

Be sure to set your region/district in the scopes NTP menu so to have the correct local time displayed.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 1audio on November 01, 2021, 08:04:01 pm
NIST servers did not work BUT the Lawrence Berkeley servers did work. Thanks.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: dophuc on November 02, 2021, 09:41:20 am
I just tested my SDS1104X-E with the ADF4351. This is probably the cheapest oscilloscope bandwidth test, around $30 including shipping
(https://sv6.anhsieuviet.com/2021/11/02/20211102_084644.jpg)
(https://sv6.anhsieuviet.com/2021/11/02/20211102_094012.jpg)
(https://sv6.anhsieuviet.com/2021/11/02/20211102_094029.jpg)
Default Bandwidth (100Mhz)
(https://sv6.anhsieuviet.com/2021/11/02/20211102_085857.jpg)
200Mhz Bandwidth
(https://sv6.anhsieuviet.com/2021/11/02/20211102_100605.jpg)
(https://sv6.anhsieuviet.com/2021/11/02/20211102_101530.jpg)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: blurpy on November 02, 2021, 05:34:04 pm
How accurate is the amplitude output of that device? And doesn't it produce a square wave signal? If it's actually usable for measuring bandwidth I might get one myself.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: dophuc on November 03, 2021, 05:00:14 am
Yes, it can generate square wave from 35Mhz to 2.2Ghz (2.2Ghz to 4.4GHz is sine wave). This is a simple rf generator so the functionality is very limited. The frequency can be adjusted but the amplitude can only be selected from 4 available levels.
(https://sv6.anhsieuviet.com/2021/11/03/20211103_081527.jpg)
(https://sv6.anhsieuviet.com/2021/11/03/20211103_102024.jpg)
(https://sv6.anhsieuviet.com/2021/11/03/20211103_080919.jpg)
You can see more details here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFtC7icVr-E&list=LL&index=3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFtC7icVr-E&list=LL&index=3)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 04, 2021, 11:17:01 pm
This needs posting here and maybe rf-loop can link it in the OP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWqpE5sg94E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWqpE5sg94E)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rooster Cogburn on November 06, 2021, 06:37:11 pm
Just out of curiosity, did they ever fix this in a firmware update:

(https://i.imgur.com/VSsPF1X.png)

https://youtu.be/Cwbwq-AKbPc?t=828

When watching reviews that seemed like a total WTF. Putting cursor measurements in such an awkward place and then not adding any shadow/outline/backdrop to the text so that it's basically unreadable once any waveforms are displayed in the center of the screen. I use cursors frequently the thought of having to disable channels and/or move them out of the way to be able to read a poorly positioned and rendered cursor measurements overlay is rather unappealing.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 4x1md on November 06, 2021, 08:43:04 pm
Just out of curiosity, did they ever fix this in a firmware update:

(https://i.imgur.com/VSsPF1X.png)

https://youtu.be/Cwbwq-AKbPc?t=828

When watching reviews that seemed like a total WTF. Putting cursor measurements in such an awkward place and then not adding any shadow/outline/backdrop to the text so that it's basically unreadable once any waveforms are displayed in the center of the screen. I use cursors frequently the thought of having to disable channels and/or move them out of the way to be able to read a poorly positioned and rendered cursor measurements overlay is rather unappealing.
Yes, they finally fixed it. It really looked ugly and cheap before.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rooster Cogburn on November 06, 2021, 08:57:03 pm
It's still not in exactly the most optimal place, but that's progress, I guess :-) I quickly googled through the firmware release notes and couldn't find anything about this, thanks for confirming that Siglent actually addresses these kinds of issues!

Stuff like this is really problematic when looking at reviews since 99% of them were made right when the device came out and the manufacturer/distributor was sending out review units to YouTubers etc. You basically compare scopes by how broken they were in the first couple of months after release, which us not very useful since devices like the 1054Z,  SDS1104X-U, SDS1104X-E etc. have been out and patched for years...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Neutrion on November 07, 2021, 07:14:22 pm
Let's hope that the "All measurements" table does not cover half of the screen now. I would also prefer some kind of shadow or outline of the text, or maybe just a darker tone of the same color, but its nice that they are starting  to adress the problem.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: jan28 on November 08, 2021, 09:03:46 pm
Does anybody know if there are SCPI commands for setting the label names with the new firmware?

Setting names via the multi function knob is very inconvenient. Seems the SCPI manual is not updated yet.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 1audio on November 09, 2021, 12:16:26 am
RE Oscillofun- Is there a Z Axis (blanking) input I don't see on the scope?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 09, 2021, 12:33:28 am
RE Oscillofun- Is there a Z Axis (blanking) input I don't see on the scope?
No. Just X-Y.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 09, 2021, 08:00:19 am
RE Oscillofun- Is there a Z Axis (blanking) input I don't see on the scope?
No. Just X-Y.
Then I had a thought to check this one and the interesting effect done with a tad of display persistence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNoSyZr9uTA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNoSyZr9uTA)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 1audio on November 10, 2021, 07:11:37 am
I was hoping for a way to connect some vintage Tek plugins that need blanking to be useful. I'll keep looking. Variable persistence is clever but not exploitable in this application.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Neutrion on November 10, 2021, 02:34:54 pm
Let's hope that the "All measurements" table does not cover half of the screen now. I would also prefer some kind of shadow or outline of the text, or maybe just a darker tone of the same color, but its nice that they are starting  to adress the problem.
I just would like to clarify this comment of mine. So it is not the space it takes would be the problem with "all measurements" but if the background would not be visible, like in the case of the small measurements window, which was posted by Rooster Cogburn. That would mae that window almost unusable compared to the current case.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: blurpy on November 10, 2021, 04:30:02 pm
Let's hope that the "All measurements" table does not cover half of the screen now. I would also prefer some kind of shadow or outline of the text, or maybe just a darker tone of the same color, but its nice that they are starting  to adress the problem.
I just would like to clarify this comment of mine. So it is not the space it takes would be the problem with "all measurements" but if the background would not be visible, like in the case of the small measurements window, which was posted by Rooster Cogburn. That would mae that window almost unusable compared to the current case.

Here is an example.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1320389;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on November 10, 2021, 09:21:46 pm
I was hoping for a way to connect some vintage Tek plugins that need blanking to be useful. I'll keep looking. Variable persistence is clever but not exploitable in this application.

That's an interesting idea, old plug-ins with a DSO.  Blanking was an integral part of the basic operation of a CRO, so adding external blanking was fairly easy.  DSOs work entirely differently, of course, and I've never seen blanking on one.  However, with a bit of clever firmware, it would seem not too difficult to implement blanking using another channel (or even EXT) as the blanking input and then define it as a MATH function--CH1 blanked by CH2 according to some formula that could be selectable or enterable.  There might even be a clever way to do it now using existing MATH functions to move the signal off-screen for blanking.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on November 10, 2021, 10:02:57 pm
I was hoping for a way to connect some vintage Tek plugins that need blanking to be useful. I'll keep looking. Variable persistence is clever but not exploitable in this application.

That's an interesting idea, old plug-ins with a DSO.  Blanking was an integral part of the basic operation of a CRO, so adding external blanking was fairly easy.  DSOs work entirely differently, of course, and I've never seen blanking on one.  However, with a bit of clever firmware, it would seem not too difficult to implement blanking using another channel (or even EXT) as the blanking input and then define it as a MATH function--CH1 blanked by CH2 according to some formula that could be selectable or enterable.  There might even be a clever way to do it now using existing MATH functions to move the signal off-screen for blanking.

There are some that have blanking. MSOX3000T has it but as a logic function, (ON/OFF) not analog.... Still useful for blanking, just not for full analog modulation of trace..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on November 11, 2021, 01:02:32 am
There are some that have blanking. MSOX3000T has it but as a logic function, (ON/OFF) not analog.... Still useful for blanking, just not for full analog modulation of trace..

What input does it use to blank and is the threshold variable?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 1audio on November 11, 2021, 03:56:34 am
I have an extensive collection of Tek 7K plugins and some would be useful. In particular I have a Wavetek FFT that has proved very useful and the sampling plugins would make sense but would need the blanking/sync to be useful. Otherwise maybe that FNISRI thing could be hacked to act as a display. I think the Wavetek is a raster output which could work with a number of PC displays. Not so simple with the samplers.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on November 11, 2021, 07:32:12 am
There are some that have blanking. MSOX3000T has it but as a logic function, (ON/OFF) not analog.... Still useful for blanking, just not for full analog modulation of trace..

What input does it use to blank and is the threshold variable?

MANUAL:

 Z-Axis Input in XY Display Mode (Blanking)
When you select the XY display mode, the time base is turned off. Channel 1 is the X-axis
input, channel 2 is the Y-axis input, and the EXT TRIG IN is the Z-axis input. If you only want to
see portions of the Y versus X display, use the Z-axis input. Z-axis turns the trace on and off
(analog oscilloscopes called this Z-axis blanking because it turned the beam on and off).
When Z is low (<1.4 V), Y versus X is displayed; when Z is high (>1.4 V), the trace is turned off.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on November 11, 2021, 03:37:05 pm
Z-Axis Input in XY Display Mode (Blanking)
When you select the XY display mode, the time base is turned off. Channel 1 is the X-axis
input, channel 2 is the Y-axis input, and the EXT TRIG IN is the Z-axis input. If you only want to
see portions of the Y versus X display, use the Z-axis input. Z-axis turns the trace on and off
(analog oscilloscopes called this Z-axis blanking because it turned the beam on and off).
When Z is low (<1.4 V), Y versus X is displayed; when Z is high (>1.4 V), the trace is turned off.

Hello, Siglent?  Are you reading that?   :)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on November 11, 2021, 03:52:04 pm
Z-Axis Input in XY Display Mode (Blanking)
When you select the XY display mode, the time base is turned off. Channel 1 is the X-axis
input, channel 2 is the Y-axis input, and the EXT TRIG IN is the Z-axis input. If you only want to
see portions of the Y versus X display, use the Z-axis input. Z-axis turns the trace on and off
(analog oscilloscopes called this Z-axis blanking because it turned the beam on and off).
When Z is low (<1.4 V), Y versus X is displayed; when Z is high (>1.4 V), the trace is turned off.

Hello, Siglent?  Are you reading that?   :)

Why? it is very rare and mostly useless thing these days, and you expect that it is reasonable that we compare feature set of 12000 USD and 500 USD scope...
While on that page, 500 USD Siglent has Color grading mode and 12 kUSD 3000T doesn't. That one would be useful too me, in fact. Hello Keysight, are you reading this ...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on November 11, 2021, 05:07:56 pm
Why? it is very rare and mostly useless thing these days, and you expect that it is reasonable that we compare feature set of 12000 USD and 500 USD scope...
While on that page, 500 USD Siglent has Color grading mode and 12 kUSD 3000T doesn't. That one would be useful too me, in fact. Hello Keysight, are you reading this ...

It's not a criticism of Siglent this time.  There's no question about which scope I will (and have) personally buy, but if they can add some features that's all the better.  And Siglent appears to respond and add things--like the very handy measurement logging that they just added to mine.  Nothing wrong with suggesting and motivating them to add some more stuff.  Yes, there's already lots of stuff, but I'm greedy.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 11, 2021, 06:50:43 pm
Nothing wrong with suggesting and motivating them to add some more stuff.  Yes, there's already lots of stuff, but I'm greedy.
Make a list and provide a valid use case.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Neutrion on November 12, 2021, 10:57:24 am
Let's hope that the "All measurements" table does not cover half of the screen now. I would also prefer some kind of shadow or outline of the text, or maybe just a darker tone of the same color, but its nice that they are starting  to adress the problem.
I just would like to clarify this comment of mine. So it is not the space it takes would be the problem with "all measurements" but if the background would not be visible, like in the case of the small measurements window, which was posted by Rooster Cogburn. That would mae that window almost unusable compared to the current case.

Here is an example.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1320389;image)
Thanks Blurpy! At least it did not get worse. Hoping to get those shadows or similar styling added to the letters.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SHF on December 10, 2021, 12:18:53 pm
new firmware 6.1.37R8 

1.   Fixed  the  problem:  very  few  SDS1xx4X-e  stuck  at  self-calibration
2.   Be Compatible with a new VGA chip

https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=12
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: C.J.S. on December 10, 2021, 10:51:56 pm
new firmware 6.1.37R8

Thanks for this notification.

Just for information, after performing the firmware update to 6.1.37R8 I needed to re-enable WiFi (re-enter SSID and PSK for connection to local WiFi network) and NTP Power On Sync.
After doing this my SDS1104X-E is running fine again. For completeness I also performed a new Self Calibration.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on December 11, 2021, 12:35:41 am
I've might have discovered a bug, maybe someone can duplicate.  Whenever I have a USB drive plugged in (in this case, a 32GB thumb drive), my USB wifi module isn't recognized on boot, and the system locks up when I hit WiFi Set in the Utility->I/O submenu.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: C.J.S. on December 11, 2021, 03:27:23 pm
@SMB784, I cannot exactly duplicate what you describe, but I do experience problems with making a reliable WiFi connection between my SDS1104X-E scope and my WiFi access point.

I have my USB Wifi module (TP-Link TL_WN725N) plugged into the USB port at the backside of my SDS1104X-E scope. In my experience the WiFi module is always detected after bootup, with or without USB drive plugged into the front USB port. But often detection of the Wifi module does not result in a reliable Wifi connection. Many times after boot up with Wifi module plugged in and detected by the the scope, I cannot access the web interface of the scope at the IP address of the Wifi module. When this happens I can repair the Wifi connection by switching Off and On WiFi and hit the Connect button in menu Utility => I/O => WiFi Set. Sometimes multiple attempts are needed to get a working WiFi connection, and the only way to find out if the WiFi connection is working is to check if the scope's web interface can be accessed on the IP address of the WiFi module. Once the WiFi connection is working the connection remains stable as long as the scope stays powered on.

To summarize, in my experience the scope most of the times does not establish a reliable WiFi connection with my WiFi router after boot up. When this happens I can make a working WiFi connection by switching Off/On WiFi and hit the Connect button in the Utility => I/O => WiFi Set menu. Many times multiple attempts are needed before a working WiFi connection is established. It could be that the occurrence of this problem depends on the WiFi Access Point (WiFi router) that is used.

There is certainly room for improvement wrt the reliability of the WiFi connection.

(EDIT: added more details about WiFi connection problems)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: guho on December 13, 2021, 09:40:23 am
Has anyone tried the latest firmware V6.1.37R8? I read somewhere it breaks wifi.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 13, 2021, 09:48:42 am
Has anyone tried the latest firmware V6.1.37R8? I read somewhere it breaks wifi.
Still working fine with my pre release SN#0014 SDS1104X-E but yes you need to re-enter your SSID and PSK.
NTP server IP remains unchanged.

I've might have discovered a bug, maybe someone can duplicate.  Whenever I have a USB drive plugged in (in this case, a 32GB thumb drive), my USB wifi module isn't recognized on boot, and the system locks up when I hit WiFi Set in the Utility->I/O submenu.
No problems here with 8GB USB sticks.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SMB784 on December 13, 2021, 01:59:28 pm
I have my USB Wifi module (TP-Link TL_WN725N) plugged into the USB port at the backside of my SDS1104X-E scope. In my experience the WiFi module is always detected after bootup, with or without USB drive plugged into the front USB port. But often detection of the Wifi module does not result in a reliable Wifi connection. Many times after boot up with Wifi module plugged in and detected by the the scope, I cannot access the web interface of the scope at the IP address of the Wifi module. When this happens I can repair the Wifi connection by switching Off and On WiFi and hit the Connect button in menu Utility => I/O => WiFi Set. Sometimes multiple attempts are needed to get a working WiFi connection, and the only way to find out if the WiFi connection is working is to check if the scope's web interface can be accessed on the IP address of the WiFi module. Once the WiFi connection is working the connection remains stable as long as the scope stays powered on.

To summarize, in my experience the scope most of the times does not establish a reliable WiFi connection with my WiFi router after boot up. When this happens I can make a working WiFi connection by switching Off/On WiFi and hit the Connect button in the Utility => I/O => WiFi Set menu. Many times multiple attempts are needed before a working WiFi connection is established. It could be that the occurrence of this problem depends on the WiFi Access Point (WiFi router) that is used.

There is certainly room for improvement wrt the reliability of the WiFi connection.

I have also experienced these wifi connection issues, in addition to my problems with an existing USB drive causing the UI to freeze when trying to connect to WIFI.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: JohanH on December 23, 2021, 04:05:50 pm
I just noticed this issue, because I haven't so far used the web interface, just tried that it worked. I tried to search for this issue but couldn't find it. Are other people able to control the SDS1104X-E using the web interface, Instrument Control menu? I'm not able to.

In my web browser, I can only see the oscilloscope window and moving signals, but there are no buttons at all, so I can't control the scope using the browser, only view the signals. In some manuals I can see that there is supposed to be multiple rows of buttons, just like on the real scope.

I've tried with Firefox and Chromium, but it looks the same. Below is a screenshot how it looks. Is this a browser issue, or what?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: JohanH on December 23, 2021, 04:10:47 pm
OK, now I saw the small arrow in the upper right corner. If I push this, the oscilloscope display becomes larger (fills the browser window horizontally) and some buttons do become visible, but not all of them:


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: JohanH on December 23, 2021, 04:12:41 pm
OK, well, if I then make the browser full screen, which I'm not used to do on my 3440x1440 monitor, I can see all buttons. But that's a gigantic oscilloscope on my 34" monitor  ;D

So seems to be a resolution/scaling issue, somehow.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 23, 2021, 05:37:03 pm
Looks like your browser or graphics settings are not ok.
Your display horizontal and vertical do not have same scale. (wrong aspect ratio)

Here some images how these must look if all is ok in PC side. In all Siglent scopes web browser scope screen picture aspect ratio is same as in scope TFT.  So your problem is not at all in scope. Naturally you have latest FW.

All images are plain screen shot from PC monitor (PrintScreen), pc connected using direct p-p LAN to scopes (of course).
Monitor is normal small 2560x1440 PC monitor.
Browser used here Opera (works also with others). Browser zoom setting is best to be 100% (or less)
Due to some your settings your PC monitor image is horizontally very badly stretched.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: JohanH on December 23, 2021, 06:02:21 pm
This is an ultra wide screen 3440x1440 34", so I guess that's the problem. For certain this is a limitation in the oscilloscope web server that it doesn't understand the ultra wide aspect ratio of the monitor.

I've used a 3440x1440 monitor for several years and this is the first application I've encountered issues with. And I consider myself an advanced computer user (software dev, linux user for 20 years). E.g. games and such are running fine. Zoom setting in browser doesn't affect.

But it's not a big issue, now that I know it works with a maximized browser window. Just wanted to mention the issue in the forum, if anyone else happened to see the same.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 23, 2021, 07:09:41 pm
................
But it's not a big issue, now that I know it works with a maximized browser window. Just wanted to mention the issue in the forum, if anyone else happened to see the same.
For Windows, Ctrl + mouse scroll wheel is the quick fix to make the webserver ratio best fit monitors.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: JohanH on December 23, 2021, 08:08:14 pm

For Windows, Ctrl + mouse scroll wheel is the quick fix to make the webserver ratio best fit monitors.

That's not entirely correct. By default Ctrl + mouse scroll zooming isn't enabled in Chrome, Edge and Firefox, so that doesn't work (but zooming is available in the browser option menu). And that's simply zooming, not aspect ratio. Furthermore zooming affects only initial web page, not the view where the oscilloscope buttons are visible. When you push the small arrow in the corner to view the oscilloscope buttons, the oscilloscope view goes full screen horizontally and stretches according to monitor aspect ratio and is unaffected by any zoom. I tested on my Linux workstation and a Windows laptop with a smaller screen (1920x1080p). Behavior is the same on both (unless it is made for some ancient Internet Explorer version that I refuse to test). So you have to have the browser window maximized or full screen, then it works. So not a big issue, only a bit space wasting and looks a bit stretched on a really big ultra wide monitor.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 24, 2021, 08:35:45 am
So not a big issue, only a bit space wasting and looks a bit stretched on a really big ultra wide monitor.

Lets hope Siglent wants develop instruments PC display feature to be more flexible for different situations also for these older models.
Least it need repair so that what ever monitor it still keep aspect ratio untouched so that it do not stretch image when monitor is ultra wide.
Also it is nice if it  works well when user use monitor so that long side is vertical (as I least some times use for better ergonomy in some cases)
Also so that user can keep one browser open for oscilloscope on the screen and size he want because many peoples tody may have big high resolution monitors.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 24, 2021, 09:05:58 am


That's not entirely correct. By default Ctrl + mouse scroll zooming isn't enabled in Chrome, Edge and Firefox, so that doesn't work (but zooming is available in the browser option menu).

Least Ctrl + mouse scroll zooming works in my case. Chrome, Firefox, Edge, Opera, Brave and old obsolete (but in some cases nessessary for me, IE11).  Also I do not remember that I have made anything for that Ctrl + works.
But this is not solution for SDS1kX-E displaying, as you told.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: dophuc on December 24, 2021, 10:54:03 am
Ctrl + mouse scroll zooming in my case also works (Chrome). However, it is only possible to change the Web view display of SDS1104X-E, when all buttons appear, it cannot be adjusted by Ctrl + scroll mouse. Thus, you can adjust the display to be smaller and click the upper right button to display all the buttons of the SDS1104X-E.
(https://sv6.anhsieuviet.com/2021/12/24/sc01.jpg)
(https://sv6.anhsieuviet.com/2021/12/24/sc02.jpg)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: JohanH on December 24, 2021, 08:59:24 pm
Thus, you can adjust the display to be smaller and click the upper right button to display all the buttons of the SDS1104X-E.

When I zoom and adjust the display smaller, and then click the upper right button to display the oscilloscope buttons, the zoom is lost and the oscilloscope display + buttons stretch to full width of the monitor. So this seems to be different behavior in different systems.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: drdanger on January 06, 2022, 11:51:59 pm
I have found what appears to be a bug in the Signal Logger on the SDS1104X-E. Applying a slow square wave with a 55 s period (18 mHz), I see frequency and period measured accurately by the logger at 2 samples per second (first screen shot). However, when the logger is set to 1 sample per second, the measured period is 68 s (second screen shot), a 24% error that can't be accounted for by the +/- 1 s resolution. The same error occurs with a longer period signal (e.g., 188 s is measured to be 231 s). I see no problem at 10 and 20 samples per second, or when acquiring the waveform in the scope's ordinary mode. Has anyone else observed this bug? My scope is updated to what I believe is the latest version of the firmware (6.1.37R6).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on January 07, 2022, 12:10:10 am
I have found what appears to be a bug in the Signal Logger on the SDS1104X-E. Applying a slow square wave with a 55 s period (18 mHz), I see frequency and period measured accurately by the logger at 2 samples per second (first screen shot). However, when the logger is set to 1 sample per second, the measured period is 68 s (second screen shot), a 24% error that can't be accounted for by the +/- 1 s resolution. The same error occurs with a longer period signal (e.g., 188 s is measured to be 231 s). I see no problem at 10 and 20 samples per second, or when acquiring the waveform in the scope's ordinary mode. Has anyone else observed this bug? My scope is updated to what I believe is the latest version of the firmware (6.1.37R6).
Welcome to the forum.

Thanks for your report.  :-+
Latest firmware version is here:
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Oscilloscope/SDS1xx4X-E_V6.1.37R8_EN.zip
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on January 07, 2022, 04:28:36 pm
Least I can confirm there is bug as @drdanger said.

I have repeated the problem. It is quite clear that there is bug with that least when a sampling frequency of 1Sa / s is used. The error or fault is displayed both as an incorrectly scaled signal on the display scale and as incorrect time values measured by the cursors from saved record.
I have the latest FW version 6.1.37R8

In addition to bug fixes, I think there is still room for improvement. Examples are automatic forced horizontal scaling as recording progresses. I like it if I can turn it off too. The coefficients (4, 8) used in the scaling in connection with the acquisition are also a bit strange. Instead, the normal 1-2-5 steps are used when viewing a recording from memory after recording.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: drdanger on January 07, 2022, 04:40:14 pm
I have found what appears to be a bug in the Signal Logger on the SDS1104X-E. ...
Thanks for your report.  :-+
Latest firmware version is here:
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Oscilloscope/SDS1xx4X-E_V6.1.37R8_EN.zip

Thank you for the link. I have updated to 6.1.37R8; unfortunately, this does not fix the bug.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ExaLab on January 16, 2022, 11:00:06 am
On its site siglent offers two versions of the V2 operating system.
Simple mistake?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: blurpy on January 16, 2022, 12:04:30 pm
On its site siglent offers two versions of the V2 operating system.
Simple mistake?
They have made 3 revisions of the V2 OS actually. The first one seems to be removed now. The only difference between them is the pdf with instructions. It's been updated with more screenshots.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on January 16, 2022, 12:55:37 pm
On its site siglent offers two versions of the V2 operating system.
Simple mistake?

There are not two versions of V2 operating systems. It is V2.
But there are now two different packages. Older package have old isntruction pdf. More new package include bit better instruction pdf.
The OS itself is perfectly the same in both (zip) packages, version 2 aka V2. It can also proof comparing both packages included 4 files example checking these files CRC64 or  SHA1

But now there are two different distribution packages. The older one should probably have been removed. But it would probably also have been good to add to the new package that nothing but the guide has changed.
Here again, we see how important proper documentation and a change log would be.
It is cumbersome because there is no proper system for identifying distribution packages and programs and / or firmware versions.

Thanks god they don't make airplanes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Neutrion on January 16, 2022, 01:21:53 pm
On its site siglent offers two versions of the V2 operating system.
Simple mistake?

It is cumbersome because there is no proper system for identifying distribution packages and programs and / or firmware versions.

Thanks god they don't make airplanes.

 :D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Variorum on January 28, 2022, 11:27:07 pm
If anyone with a SDS1000X-E scope wants a convenient way to sync the time, the page below will help you to enable the NTP server on a Windows PC.
I have my scope plugged into a laptop on my bench that's connected via WIFI to my network. This gives me access to the scope from any PC on the network and gives me a local NTP source for the scope.

Go here to learn how to enable the NTP Service (The instructions are for Windows Server but apply to all versions of Windows 10):
https://computingforgeeks.com/how-to-configure-ntp-server-in-windows-server/

These two steps on the page are very important! It took a couple days before I stumbled on a site that specified setting 'AnnounceFlags' to 5... the scope would not sync properly until I set that.
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE>SYSTEM>CurrentControlSet>Services>W32Time>TimeProviders>NtpServer>Enabled = 1
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE>SYSTEM>CurrentControlSet>Services>W32Time>Config>AnnounceFlags = 5

"Open UDP port 123 in the Firewall"  ---  This is mandatory on the machine that is providing the NTP service:

Change the Startup Mode of the "Windows Time" Service to "Automatic" and Start or Restart it if it was already running.

Set your scope to point to the IP Address of the PC that running the NTP Service...

The PC syncs its clock automatically (usually via time.windows.com) so the accuracy should be as good as an external NTP server. It's been working great for me since I set it up.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: HendriXML on January 29, 2022, 02:27:33 am
Thanks for the info. Fresh Tomato (firmware) on my router can also run an NTP server, that one is always on so a bit handier. Haven't tried it yet though.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: puterboy on February 21, 2022, 03:11:41 pm
It's unreliable for me. Sometimes it works OK and the web interface is fairly usable. Sometimes it just won't connect or it connects but there is no useful data throughput.

One thing that may be an issue for me is that I have 3 wireless AP's in the house all broadcasting the same SSID's as our internal walls are far too thick to cover the house with one AP. This allows devices to roam between AP's automatically as they move around the house.

Even though one of the AP's is in the same room (about a metre away) from the scope, there's a possibility that the roaming support on the device is poor and it's sometimes connecting to a far away AP and thus not getting a usable signal. I'll need to do some more testing to see if this is the case.

Are you using DHCP or a static IP?
On my original firmware (ca 2020), I found that WiFi was unstable and constantly connected/disconnected when using DHCP but was rock stable when using static IP.
I posted this as a bug report back then and also to the Forum https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-wifi-totally-flakey-with-dhcp-on-(but-rock-solid-with-dhcp-off)/msg3216354/#msg3216354 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-wifi-totally-flakey-with-dhcp-on-(but-rock-solid-with-dhcp-off)/msg3216354/#msg3216354)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 21, 2022, 09:06:27 pm
It's unreliable for me. Sometimes it works OK and the web interface is fairly usable. Sometimes it just won't connect or it connects but there is no useful data throughput.

One thing that may be an issue for me is that I have 3 wireless AP's in the house all broadcasting the same SSID's as our internal walls are far too thick to cover the house with one AP. This allows devices to roam between AP's automatically as they move around the house.

Even though one of the AP's is in the same room (about a metre away) from the scope, there's a possibility that the roaming support on the device is poor and it's sometimes connecting to a far away AP and thus not getting a usable signal. I'll need to do some more testing to see if this is the case.

Are you using DHCP or a static IP?
On my original firmware (ca 2020), I found that WiFi was unstable and constantly connected/disconnected when using DHCP but was rock stable when using static IP.
I posted this as a bug report back then and also to the Forum https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-wifi-totally-flakey-with-dhcp-on-(but-rock-solid-with-dhcp-off)/msg3216354/#msg3216354 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-wifi-totally-flakey-with-dhcp-on-(but-rock-solid-with-dhcp-off)/msg3216354/#msg3216354)
Some recent discussion:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-wifi-needs-router-ssid-broadcast-all-the-time/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-wifi-needs-router-ssid-broadcast-all-the-time/)

With the latest firmware behavior is consistent. (V6.1.37R8 and V2 OS)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: puterboy on February 22, 2022, 05:30:21 pm
It's unreliable for me. Sometimes it works OK and the web interface is fairly usable. Sometimes it just won't connect or it connects but there is no useful data throughput.

One thing that may be an issue for me is that I have 3 wireless AP's in the house all broadcasting the same SSID's as our internal walls are far too thick to cover the house with one AP. This allows devices to roam between AP's automatically as they move around the house.

Even though one of the AP's is in the same room (about a metre away) from the scope, there's a possibility that the roaming support on the device is poor and it's sometimes connecting to a far away AP and thus not getting a usable signal. I'll need to do some more testing to see if this is the case.

Are you using DHCP or a static IP?
On my original firmware (ca 2020), I found that WiFi was unstable and constantly connected/disconnected when using DHCP but was rock stable when using static IP.
I posted this as a bug report back then and also to the Forum https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-wifi-totally-flakey-with-dhcp-on-(but-rock-solid-with-dhcp-off)/msg3216354/#msg3216354 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-wifi-totally-flakey-with-dhcp-on-(but-rock-solid-with-dhcp-off)/msg3216354/#msg3216354)
Some recent discussion:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-wifi-needs-router-ssid-broadcast-all-the-time/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-wifi-needs-router-ssid-broadcast-all-the-time/)

With the latest firmware behavior is consistent. (V6.1.37R8 and V2 OS)

The thread you cite seems to be mostly about SSID and DHCP lease issues.
The problem that I documented in the thread I cited (along with bug report to Siglent) is that a combination of certain routers & network topologies lead to unstable DHCP connections with the connection dropping and restarting every few seconds. This has nothing to do with SSID or DHCP leases.

I was able to solve the problem by using static DHCP.

I don't think it's a problem with my routers (Netgear r6700 running dd-wrt) as my network is otherwise rock stable and dd-wrt is pretty darn solid.
Also, the WiFi dongle works fine under Windows or Linux.
So presumably there was/is a problem with the Siglent firmware -- or at least the version I had from 2020 as I have not yet updated
When I update, I will check if problem still persists...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Hfe72 on March 06, 2022, 11:06:32 am
Hey guys! My sds1104x-e (hacked up to 200MHz) software version is 6.1.33 and Uboot-OS version is 8.1. Do I have to install every single update in incremental order or can I jump straight to the latest one without installing any updates in between them? The latest firmware is V6.1.37R8 and OS is Operating System -V2? And which one should be installed first, or does this matter?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: pope on March 06, 2022, 11:32:35 am
Hey guys! My sds1104x-e (hacked up to 200MHz) software version is 6.1.33 and Uboot-OS version is 8.1. Do I have to install every single update in incremental order or can I jump straight to the latest one without installing any updates in between them? The latest firmware is V6.1.37R8 and OS is Operating System -V2? And which one should be installed first, or does this matter?

I only got my scope a couple of weeks ago so I'm definitely not an expert but I went from 6.1.35R2 straight to V6.1.37R8 without problems. Maybe someone can be of more help though.

As far as the OS, I've been having problems to install OS2  but yesterday I read that the USB stick should be either 8gb or 32gb. Unfortunately I only have 2,4 and 16gb sticks so I don't know if this is the actual problem I'm having. 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 06, 2022, 11:43:53 am
Hey guys! My sds1104x-e (hacked up to 200MHz) software version is 6.1.33 and Uboot-OS version is 8.1. Do I have to install every single update in incremental order or can I jump straight to the latest one without installing any updates in between them? The latest firmware is V6.1.37R8 and OS is Operating System -V2? And which one should be installed first, or does this matter?

I only got my scope a couple of weeks ago so I'm definitely not an expert but I went from 6.1.35R2 straight to V6.1.37R8 without problems. Maybe someone can be of more help though.

As far as the OS, I've been having problems to install OS2  but yesterday I read that the USB stick should be either 8gb or 32gb. Unfortunately I only have 2,4 and 16gb sticks so I don't know if this is the actual problem I'm having.
The 2 and 4GB sticks should work just fine.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: pope on March 06, 2022, 02:48:31 pm
Hey guys! My sds1104x-e (hacked up to 200MHz) software version is 6.1.33 and Uboot-OS version is 8.1. Do I have to install every single update in incremental order or can I jump straight to the latest one without installing any updates in between them? The latest firmware is V6.1.37R8 and OS is Operating System -V2? And which one should be installed first, or does this matter?

I only got my scope a couple of weeks ago so I'm definitely not an expert but I went from 6.1.35R2 straight to V6.1.37R8 without problems. Maybe someone can be of more help though.

As far as the OS, I've been having problems to install OS2  but yesterday I read that the USB stick should be either 8gb or 32gb. Unfortunately I only have 2,4 and 16gb sticks so I don't know if this is the actual problem I'm having.
The 2 and 4GB sticks should work just fine.

Thank you tautech. It was in the manual where it says for the 8/32gb so I gave up trying until I get the proper stick but since you say it should work, I'll give it another try.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on March 06, 2022, 04:19:25 pm
Thank you tautech. It was in the manual where it says for the 8/32gb so I gave up trying until I get the proper stick but since you say it should work, I'll give it another try.

I've heard of difficulty with certain USB drives, but I have two different 16GB versions that work fine with both of my Siglent scopes.  Just make sure they are formatted FAT32.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: pope on March 06, 2022, 04:22:40 pm
Thank you tautech. It was in the manual where it says for the 8/32gb so I gave up trying until I get the proper stick but since you say it should work, I'll give it another try.

I've heard of difficulty with certain USB drives, but I have two different 16GB versions that work find with both of my Siglent scopes.  Just make sure they are formatted FAT32.

I'm trying with a different USB stick as we speak. It's 4gb. The instructions say that after updating the scope should restart by itself and if not to do it manually after 10 minutes.

5 more minutes to go... :)

Also, the stick has a LED, which was blinking during the start-up but now it's been constantly ON.

EDIT: OK success! I had to manually restart the scopw but it appears to have the OS 8.2 version now  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 06, 2022, 07:34:58 pm
Thank you tautech. It was in the manual where it says for the 8/32gb so I gave up trying until I get the proper stick but since you say it should work, I'll give it another try.

I've heard of difficulty with certain USB drives, but I have two different 16GB versions that work find with both of my Siglent scopes.  Just make sure they are formatted FAT32.

I'm trying with a different USB stick as we speak. It's 4gb. The instructions say that after updating the scope should restart by itself and if not to do it manually after 10 minutes.

5 more minutes to go... :)

Also, the stick has a LED, which was blinking during the start-up but now it's been constantly ON.

EDIT: OK success! I had to manually restart the scope but it appears to have the OS 8.2 version now  :-+
Nice, enjoy OS 8.2.  :)

Yep correct observation, LED activity at boot indicates the new OS was being loaded.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Hfe72 on March 06, 2022, 08:16:27 pm
Thank you tautech. It was in the manual where it says for the 8/32gb so I gave up trying until I get the proper stick but since you say it should work, I'll give it another try.

I've heard of difficulty with certain USB drives, but I have two different 16GB versions that work find with both of my Siglent scopes.  Just make sure they are formatted FAT32.

I'm trying with a different USB stick as we speak. It's 4gb. The instructions say that after updating the scope should restart by itself and if not to do it manually after 10 minutes.

5 more minutes to go... :)

Also, the stick has a LED, which was blinking during the start-up but now it's been constantly ON.

EDIT: OK success! I had to manually restart the scopw but it appears to have the OS 8.2 version now  :-+

I thought that my scope did not autodetect the stick on startup, but when I manually restart the scope OS is now 8.2  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 06, 2022, 08:56:36 pm
Thank you tautech. It was in the manual where it says for the 8/32gb so I gave up trying until I get the proper stick but since you say it should work, I'll give it another try.

I've heard of difficulty with certain USB drives, but I have two different 16GB versions that work find with both of my Siglent scopes.  Just make sure they are formatted FAT32.

I'm trying with a different USB stick as we speak. It's 4gb. The instructions say that after updating the scope should restart by itself and if not to do it manually after 10 minutes.

5 more minutes to go... :)

Also, the stick has a LED, which was blinking during the start-up but now it's been constantly ON.

EDIT: OK success! I had to manually restart the scopw but it appears to have the OS 8.2 version now  :-+

I thought that my scope did not autodetect the stick on startup, but when I manually restart the scope OS is now 8.2  :)
During boot the scope's OS automatically looks for OS files in the root of a USB stick and if present autoloads them.

This is also how the recovery files work. With a USB stick with a activity LED you can monitor all this happening in realtime.  :)

OS and recovery files need be removed from your USB sticks otherwise they are uploaded again at each boot.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rauldm on March 07, 2022, 04:01:39 am
Why autosetup doesn't adjust 4 channels like agilent or tek?, four signals in this scope it has same vertical position.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 07, 2022, 04:48:01 am
Why autosetup doesn't adjust 4 channels like agilent or tek?, four signals in this scope it has same vertical position.
0V is the default position for all channels however with setting your personal User default you can have all manner of scope settings just as you like them.
You can find it in the Save/Recall menu however it's wise to run a factory default before configuring and saving a User default.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rauldm on March 07, 2022, 05:49:04 am
Yes, I do it, but I would hope siglent can set the autosetup with vertical offset and vertical scale like othera brands really is easy to see when you touch autosetup and get all signals with vertical scale and vertical offset without touch between them, I dont use to much autoset, but helps for more fast and easy adjust
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MathWizard on May 04, 2022, 12:08:56 am
Anyone else have a problem when choosing the trigger channel source ? Today I was changing trigger channel, in the trigger menu along the bottom of the screen, it says in a little box, CH1, and that on screen text stopped changing. The trigger itself still seems to change and work, but that text does not.

On the upper right, the trigger info up there updates and changes. See in the picture, I chose CH2 in the menu, and it did it, but the little status box in the bottom still says CH1.

I rebooted, but never unpluged the standby pwr, and when I turned it back on, I seem to have the same problem.

I don't remember having this problem before, I might have pressed the button really fast earlier[attach=1]
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 04, 2022, 12:48:16 am
Anyone else have a problem when choosing the trigger channel source ? Today I was changing trigger channel, in the trigger menu along the bottom of the screen, it says in a little box, CH1, and that on screen text stopped changing. The trigger itself still seems to change and work, but that text does not.

On the upper right, the trigger info up there updates and changes. See in the picture, I chose CH2 in the menu, and it did it, but the little status box in the bottom still says CH1.

I rebooted, but never unpluged the standby pwr, and when I turned it back on, I seem to have the same problem.

I don't remember having this problem before, I might have pressed the button really fast earlier (Attachment Link)
A few things a missing from this report.....
The screenshot is from the webserver UI and you haven't said if the Trigger setting changes were made from within the webserver or from the scopes front panel. (possible webserver bug ?)
What is the installed FW version ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MathWizard on May 04, 2022, 02:00:31 am
Hi it's software version 6.1.35R2, a 1104 hacked to a 1204.

I set the trigger on the machine, by pressing setup, then the source button. I unplugged for a while, and just restarted, and the trigger soucre box in the setup menu, read correct, but then again when I changed it, it scrolls through in the little pop-up menu, but it still never changed it in the box.

Ok but if I leave the trigger menu, by say going to CH1 menu, then go back to trigger, it then says the correct CH# in that box.

No big deal, but I don't remember it being like this before.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 04, 2022, 03:36:48 am
Hi it's software version 6.1.35R2.............
2 year old FW, 3 versions outta date.  :-//

See if the latest fixes this but don't forget to install the new OS too so to get the full range of new features.
https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=12
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MathWizard on May 04, 2022, 10:54:13 am
OK thanks, but that won't undo the BW hack right ? and I DL stuff for 1204x-e?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 04, 2022, 08:22:32 pm
OK thanks, but that won't undo the BW hack right ?
No.
BW upgrades are just like options, they remain after FW upgrades.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: matli on May 21, 2022, 03:06:04 pm
Are there any solutions for using the 1104X-E embedded web server on ultra wide monitors? Problems were mentioned previously in this thread, but I couldn't see any real solutions.
For me, the issue means that the embedded web controls are more or less unusable. I have a 3440x1600 ultrawide monitor.

The initial view looks OK, I can see a representation of the scope's screen. However, when I push the little arrow in the upper right corner to access the controls, I get a super zoomed-in view of just a part of the scope. Even if I maximize the window, I still just can see a small portion of the interface. If I try to resize the browser window, it all snaps back to just showing me the initial view.

The only workaround I have been able to find is to zoom out the browser to 25% or so before switching on the controls, but then everything else is tiny and totally unreadable. And if I try to resize the window or so, then it all snaps back to a tiny miniature window.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Roman oh on May 23, 2022, 12:50:58 pm
I also thought that the scope had failed to detect the USB stick, because it just seemed to start normally. In hindsight, I think the welcome screen did flash briefly after about 2 seconds, but then the CRO started up normally. No indication whatsoever that anything had happened. Repeat several times with several different sticks. Same result.  In frustration, I went ahead and updated the firmware anyway (OS upgrade is not needed for 6.1.37R8), and only then checked the System Status. OS is 8.2. Firmware is 6.1.37R8.
Looks like the OS install guide may be misleading. No power cycle, no 10 minute wait - wham! Bam! Thank you m’am, in the space of a few seconds. But the installation process itself - silky smooth! Shame they couldn’t save the WiFi credentials😁

Roman
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 23, 2022, 01:48:54 pm
Shame they couldn’t save the WiFi credentials😁
:-//
WiFi is working just fine now since most special characters were supported.

What issues are you having ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Roman oh on May 24, 2022, 12:53:37 am
No issues - WiFi is indeed working fine. Rock solid with static IP. My tongue-in-cheek comment alluded to the fact that my WiFi password is rather long and the input mechanism gets a bit tiresome. That’s me, not the CRO, or the many other devices in my house that use a similar HMI.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 24, 2022, 01:07:01 am
No issues - WiFi is indeed working fine. Rock solid with static IP. My tongue-in-cheek comment alluded to the fact that my WiFi password is rather long and the input mechanism gets a bit tiresome. That’s me, not the CRO, or the many other devices in my house that use a similar HMI.
Connected to a wired LAN using the scopes webserver, a PC mouse and virtual keyboard makes such tasks a doddle.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: SHF on May 24, 2022, 05:26:33 pm
New Firmware  Version: V6.1.37R9

https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=12
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: pope on May 24, 2022, 08:13:51 pm
New Firmware  Version: V6.1.37R9

https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=12

What's new? It must be my broken English but I didn't understand much from the release note.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 24, 2022, 09:10:06 pm
New Firmware  Version: V6.1.37R9

https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=12

What's new? It must be my broken English but I didn't understand much from the release note.
Fixed the problem: The skew of the two ADCs is not accuracy for hardware of 09 version (System Status shows Hardware Version: 09-xx). The other hardware version has no this problem.

Translation: New HW introduced due to component shortages introduced a skew between ADC's that is remedied with this new FW.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: pope on May 25, 2022, 07:37:01 am
New Firmware  Version: V6.1.37R9

https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=12

What's new? It must be my broken English but I didn't understand much from the release note.
Fixed the problem: The skew of the two ADCs is not accuracy for hardware of 09 version (System Status shows Hardware Version: 09-xx). The other hardware version has no this problem.

Translation: New HW introduced due to component shortages introduced a skew between ADC's that is remedied with this new FW.

Thanks! So my understanding is that it's not necessary for older units. Do you know what serial number onwards by any chance?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ceut on May 26, 2022, 07:43:57 pm
New Firmware  Version: V6.1.37R9

https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=12

What's new? It must be my broken English but I didn't understand much from the release note.
Fixed the problem: The skew of the two ADCs is not accuracy for hardware of 09 version (System Status shows Hardware Version: 09-xx). The other hardware version has no this problem.

Translation: New HW introduced due to component shortages introduced a skew between ADC's that is remedied with this new FW.

Hello,
Thank you for the news !
My SDS1104X-E is 09-06 Hardware Version so I have just downloaded the file, then will upgrade mine  :-+

(but I have not really understood the "skew between ADC" , have I different type of ADC in my model because of the shortages? ???  )


Edit: Upgrade OK, but the scope has deleted all my settings, so I have reloaded them from the "default" Button where I have saved them  :D (and have also a copy on a little 4GB USB Stick)
I have done a recalibration after all that, without anything on the input  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on May 26, 2022, 08:09:11 pm
New Firmware  Version: V6.1.37R9

https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=12

What's new? It must be my broken English but I didn't understand much from the release note.
Fixed the problem: The skew of the two ADCs is not accuracy for hardware of 09 version (System Status shows Hardware Version: 09-xx). The other hardware version has no this problem.

Translation: New HW introduced due to component shortages introduced a skew between ADC's that is remedied with this new FW.

Hello,
Thank you for the news !
My SDS1104X-E is 09-06 Hardware Version so I have just downloaded the file, then will upgrade mine  :-+

(but I have not really understood the "skew between ADC" , have I different type of ADC in my model because of the shortages? ???  )
Maybe, maybe not. However it is clear from the the firmware notes there has been some minor HW change.


Quote
Edit: Upgrade OK, but the scope has deleted all my settings, so I have reloaded them from the "default" Button where I have saved them  :D (and have also a copy on a little 4GB USB Stick)
I have done a recalibration after all that, without anything on the input  :-+
This must not happen !
Please list each of the settings types deleted and I'll report this to Siglent.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: ceut on May 27, 2022, 12:13:59 am
Quote from: tautech
This must not happen !
Please list each of the settings types deleted and I'll report this to Siglent.

I have extracted the .xml file from my setting, then re-flashed the FW, then re-extracted the .xml: 120 modified lines (I'm a TotalCommander user 8) , and I have compared the 2 files with it) .
So too much to list I think  :-\
My original .xml is 88591 bytes and after having flashed the new FW, the file is smaller: 88564 bytes.

What I first saw:
>reset of the channels configurations, with the 1rst yellow channel with trace in the middle.
>lost of all the display configuration (intensity/graticule/transparency)
>lost of the AWG configuration with my JDS6600  ^-^
>lost of the NTP server (no popup after boot)
...

I have not checked all, as I have recovered all settings with the backup I have made and set on the "default" button  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Trader on June 11, 2022, 08:47:22 am
Hi, I just found this big thread.

I wonder if the hobbyist upgrade can be done after the V6.1.37R9 firmware, and where explains the steps to upgrade it.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on June 12, 2022, 08:04:54 am
Hi, I just found this big thread.

I wonder if the hobbyist upgrade can be done after the V6.1.37R9 firmware, and where explains the steps to upgrade it.

Thank you.
Thought I'd let you search for a day or 2 only to find your answer was currently on P2 of the TE board:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Trader on June 12, 2022, 09:38:16 am
Hi, I just found this big thread.

I wonder if the hobbyist upgrade can be done after the V6.1.37R9 firmware, and where explains the steps to upgrade it.

Thank you.
Thought I'd let you search for a day or 2 only to find your answer was currently on P2 of the TE board:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/)

Thank you so much.  I still can't find it. Maybe a link?

I guess this kind of thread should keep updated the OP with the necessary info or at least an index to the relevant Replies.

I asked where are the steps because I found several times in other threads that the first posts were outdated and just close to the last post I found the correct solution.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on June 12, 2022, 02:31:16 pm
Hi, I just found this big thread.

I wonder if the hobbyist upgrade can be done after the V6.1.37R9 firmware, and where explains the steps to upgrade it.

Thank you.
Thought I'd let you search for a day or 2 only to find your answer was currently on P2 of the TE board:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/)

Thank you so much.  I still can't find it. Maybe a link?

I guess this kind of thread should keep updated the OP with the necessary info or at least an index to the relevant Replies.

I asked where are the steps because I found several times in other threads that the first posts were outdated and just close to the last post I found the correct solution.
Focus only on finding the python method as it’s the safest.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on June 21, 2022, 01:44:57 pm
Just received my brand new SDS1104X-E. There's A LOT to read now  ::)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Minari on June 22, 2022, 06:04:06 pm
Oooh, OS version 8.3.  Anyone know what features this has over the previous version?  I can't see any reference to minor OS revisions on the Siglent website.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MathWizard on June 23, 2022, 02:51:16 am
I never did update my firmware's yet, on any of my Siglent gear.

I have 2-3 of the default probes, that must have a break in them somewhere, and sometimes the cables lose gnd, and other times just get weird in some positions.


So how hard is it to take them apart, and fix the crack or whatever, and fix it ? I just remembered they are not just ordinary coax.

But if I don't care about cutting 1 open , are they fairly easy to fix, like with solder, and glue, electric tape, maybe even tinfoil ???
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Trader on June 23, 2022, 03:18:58 am
I never did update my firmware's yet, on any of my Siglent gear.

I have 2-3 of the default probes, that must have a break in them somewhere, and sometimes the cables lose gnd, and other times just get weird in some positions.


So how hard is it to take them apart, and fix the crack or whatever, and fix it ? I just remembered they are not just ordinary coax.

But if I don't care about cutting 1 open , are they fairly easy to fix, like with solder, and glue, electric tape, maybe even tinfoil ???

Why not buy a New cheap and good probe?

P2200 (200MHz) (460MHz -3dBm)  https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_DCmmHgx
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on June 23, 2022, 06:50:19 am
Oooh, OS version 8.3.  Anyone know what features this has over the previous version?  I can't see any reference to minor OS revisions on the Siglent website.

The calibration certificate indicates that it was calibrated in 21/03/2022 so the OS V8.3 must be at least 3 months old.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on July 06, 2022, 08:42:15 am
Hi there!

I've been fiddling with the SDS1104X-E for quite a while now and I think I've found a bug in the Counter function or, at least, a weird behaviour. For instance, get a couple of sine waves in, say, 1KHz in channel 1 and 10KHz in channel 3. Now start the counter and select channel 3 as its source. The counter displays 1KHz as if it were the channel 1:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1530973;image)




I searched the forum and found something in this very topic:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg3728731/?topicseen#msg3728731 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg3728731/?topicseen#msg3728731)

Is anyone using the new counter function?  It appears not to work the way I would expect--it gives you the option of selecting any active channel--and changes the color of the 'Frequency' annunciation to match, but won't actually indicate anything unless the trigger source is that channel.  I'm not sure how that is a helpful feature...

This may address my observations but upon further investigations I found that the Counter function displays the correct answer, 10KHz if I activate any of the other 2 or 4 channels.

Channel 2 also activated = Counter OK:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1530979;image)

Now I disengage channel 2 and engage channel 4. Again, counter OK:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1530985;image)

It looks like a bug, right?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: pope on July 06, 2022, 10:11:57 am
I just followed your procedure and I can confirm that I get exactly the same bug. Thanks for pointing this out!  :-+

6.1.37r8 and OS 8.2
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on July 06, 2022, 12:45:22 pm
Ooops!.. I forgot it  ::) my scope is running 6.1.37r9 and OS 8.3
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 1audio on July 11, 2022, 05:03:07 am
I have an 1104-XE with the latest everything I believe. On the 4 channels 2-3-4 all are within 1 mV of zero with the input shorted gain max. However Ch1 is at +3 mV. I did a self cal and its the same afterwards as before. Is there an adjustment or something I need to do? Is this within tolerance?  Its not very important, however only one channel seems to be afflicted so there may be more to this.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on July 11, 2022, 05:10:50 am
I have an 1104-XE with the latest everything I believe. On the 4 channels 2-3-4 all are within 1 mV of zero with the input shorted gain max. However Ch1 is at +3 mV. I did a self cal and its the same afterwards as before. Is there an adjustment or something I need to do? Is this within tolerance?  Its not very important, however only one channel seems to be afflicted so there may be more to this.

What do you get with the channels open (nothing connected to the scope) ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 1audio on July 12, 2022, 04:04:34 am
No change. I shorted the input just to be sure. I have a Tek THS720 that drifts but the self cal corrects it. I was expecting that here but no success. Has nayone else noticed offset?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on July 12, 2022, 05:19:51 am
I have an 1104-XE with the latest everything I believe. On the 4 channels 2-3-4 all are within 1 mV of zero with the input shorted gain max. However Ch1 is at +3 mV. I did a self cal and its the same afterwards as before. Is there an adjustment or something I need to do? Is this within tolerance?  Its not very important, however only one channel seems to be afflicted so there may be more to this.

Do you mean "gain max" that means you have set channels for 500uV/div.

I have never seen that with this setting channel is +3mV offset. (with this setting +3mV is outside from screen. With 500uV/div whole sceen vertical range is -2mV to +2mV
1mV offset is 2 div. Also this I have never seen exept in chase that selfcal is out of order. (it can also happen if oscilloscope is cal ok in +24 and just after turn on from -20 celsius... during warm up it may of course drift quite lot)

Please do, all next even if you have done it earlier

First turn it on and set it to factory default state (not front panel "Deafault" button). (you can findFactory Default from Save/Recall menu -> Recall -> Type: select from list Factory Default -> Press to Recall)
And then keep all as is.

Keep oscilloscope running alone least 30minute in place where it can reach thermal equilibrium..

Then
NOTHING connected to oscilloscope input connectors. All BNC need be open!

Start Selfcal. Do not touch anything during this and keep all strong EMI sources far away from near inputs, including your fingers.

After it is finished.

Still do not connect anything to inputs. Do not adjust any other things but next
Turn all 4 channels on and set all channels for 500uV/div. All trace positions 0.0V (you can push Position knob or adjust it so that it is perfectly 0.0V)
If real trace is not vertical center do not adjust it to center using Position.

Only just connect USB memory stick and push "print" button for get screen image to USB. (naturally if you allready have PC connected to scope then screen shot using it)

Display this image here so we can see this situation and because you do exactly as asked we also know perfectly what is oscilloscope state when this image is taken.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 1audio on July 13, 2022, 04:22:46 am
I did not realize the channel was set for a 10X probe when I sent the original note.

I followed the suggested process which cleaned up the offsets (at least down the the noise level). Picture attached. I'm not sure what had left the offset but its essentially gone. Ch 2 has a little offset but not enough to be concerned.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on July 13, 2022, 05:14:01 am
I did not realize the channel was set for a 10X probe when I sent the original note.

I followed the suggested process which cleaned up the offsets (at least down the the noise level). Picture attached. I'm not sure what had left the offset but its essentially gone. Ch 2 has a little offset but not enough to be concerned.

Good.

Looks very normal.
(Despite the fact that you did it differently than I advised - although in this case it does not cause ambiguity or a problem when the thing to be evaluated is this simple.)

This small dc offset can not compensate - it is  feature in this model. It just need accept. (offset DAC and other circuits limits)
If need do accurate Vrms measurements where DC offset is eliminated then use Stdev or Cycle Stdev instead of DC including RMS or Cycle RMS .

If keep Quick Cal: On (Utility menu) it try some times compensate offset drift when 500uV/div - 2mV/div is selected. 
It do this process also always during first 30minute from power up when it works 15sec intervals. It can easy see that roll resets every 15 second if use slow roll mode and 500uV/div. After around 30 minute from powerup  it stop (but after then it can process if system "think" it need do) 
It is default on. Turn it off only when really need and after then back to ON again.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: arcitech on July 13, 2022, 09:17:25 pm
Can someone confirm my suspicion (based on manuals) that the SDS1000X-E series does _not_ allow users to dim the overall LCD brightness?

Looks to me like SDS2000X+ or HD would deliver the ability to dial back the brightness, but not the SDS1000X-E... idk whether I'll ever hear back from yday morning's emails to info@ & sales-usa@ but prime day prices are near the end...

(IMO LCDs sans dimming should be outlawed.)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on July 13, 2022, 09:43:29 pm
Can someone confirm my suspicion (based on manuals) that the SDS1000X-E series does _not_ allow users to dim the overall LCD brightness?

If by overall brightness you mean the backlight, then AFAIK no.  There are other adjustments that seem sufficient and I've never, ever felt the need to try and reduce the brightness on this scope.  The background is mostly black and there is an intensity control for the traces.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on July 13, 2022, 10:05:34 pm
Quote
Looks to me like SDS2000X+ or HD would deliver the ability to dial back the brightness

Correct, you can dim the backlight on them.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: arcitech on July 13, 2022, 10:06:15 pm
If by overall brightness you mean the backlight, then AFAIK no.  There are other adjustments that seem sufficient and I've never, ever felt the need to try and reduce the brightness on this scope.  The background is mostly black and there is an intensity control for the traces.

Useful info for most, but in this case there's backlight bleed + contrast edge bleed that are filtered out by most brains, but astigmatism thwarts that filter, sometimes on its own, but especially when amplified by other visual sensitivities. "Ever endure a video shot by someone oblivious to how greasy their camera lens is? Like that."

(or so I'm told...)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 14, 2022, 12:48:57 am
Can someone confirm my suspicion (based on manuals) that the SDS1000X-E series does _not_ allow users to dim the overall LCD brightness?

Looks to me like SDS2000X+ or HD would deliver the ability to dial back the brightness, but not the SDS1000X-E... idk whether I'll ever hear back from yday morning's emails to info@ & sales-usa@ but prime day prices are near the end...

(IMO LCDs sans dimming should be outlawed.)
If by overall brightness you mean the backlight, then AFAIK no.  There are other adjustments that seem sufficient and I've never, ever felt the need to try and reduce the brightness on this scope.  The background is mostly black and there is an intensity control for the traces.

Useful info for most, but in this case there's backlight bleed + contrast edge bleed that are filtered out by most brains, but astigmatism thwarts that filter, sometimes on its own, but especially when amplified by other visual sensitivities. "Ever endure a video shot by someone oblivious to how greasy their camera lens is? Like that."

(or so I'm told...)
OK so you have a LCD edge bleed problem do you ? In some early models we had the odd problem with this however to know if yours really has a problem we need pics from normal viewing angles.

An assortment of Display adjustments for the 4ch X-E follow, some of which show how important it is to have the Graticule brightness a little higher than normal for them to show up well in screenshot.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: arcitech on July 14, 2022, 02:26:31 am
Quote from: tautech
OK so you have a LCD edge bleed problem do you ?

Nope, no SDS to have one on, but thanks regardless. Was just trying to sort out whether the SDS1000X-E series allowed for overall (backlight) dimming like the bigger siblings have. The bleed I was citing was just a general LCD backlight leakage through the pixels themselves (pixel closed but backlight still leaking past, worse on some panel technologies than other shallower ones, obviously OLEDs avoid this entirely and dimmable zones on newer/larger LCDs lessen it). That, and general contrast, screen or no.

Neither is typically an issue for most people just tends to be troublesome for those with certain eyeball and/or neurological differences.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 14, 2022, 02:55:28 am
Was just trying to sort out whether the SDS1000X-E series allowed for overall (backlight) dimming like the bigger siblings have.
No they don't as seen in the Display setting menu above however study of the first 2 screenshots give some idea of the display changes you can make with just trace and graticule brightness and transparency with the last screenshot being close to my preferred settings.
With the more advanced and touch display siblings, the brightness control (Multifunction encoder or mouse hover over the numerical brightness box) affects all display settings in some way and is probably the better feature for overall display control although you certainly can address each parameter one by one.

Please share more about 'troublesome for those with certain eyeball and/or neurological differences' for the designers to consider for existing and future products.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: arcitech on July 14, 2022, 09:20:30 am
Quote from: tautech
Please share more about 'troublesome for those with certain eyeball and/or neurological differences' for the designers to consider for existing and future products.  :popcorn:

Discussing sensory phenomenology (ineffable by definition) seems a bit futile and truly I've gotta wonder if you're having a laugh.

The only consideration I'd suggest designers take into consideration is a dimmable backlight, if that somehow wasn't clear. That helps accommodate those with astigmatism (as mentioned before) as well as other sensory differences experienced by those with albinism, macular degeneration, retinal aberrations or thinning etc. I can't speak directly to all those conditions. I'll leave the numerous neurological issues that can impact vision unlisted.

Aside from that backlight request, basic consideration of the common (two?) variants of color blindness would probably be good practice. It doesn't help me in particular but I'm not just on a quest to self-serve.

There's been a years-long push on the web dev front called a11y and, while it doesn't directly translate to all digital canvasses, it should help initiate those for whom accessibility isn't fully understood.

If product designers aren't aware of core accessibility tenets in the HMI domain, then I have to wonder whether they're product designers at all. Or, maybe I just spent too much time in northern California, where delicate flowers for the landscape, and helping them thrive is atop seemingly every technical company's list.

Whether you're having a laugh or not, thanks again for confirming the other helpful initial responses to my question, even if it did take a weird detour through LCD edge bleed land.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on July 14, 2022, 09:28:49 am
Discussing sensory phenomenology (ineffable by definition) seems a bit futile and truly I've gotta wonder if you're having a laugh.

No question to laugh about. Unfortunately we all will suffer from it albeit in different levels...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 14, 2022, 09:47:15 am
Quote from: tautech
Please share more about 'troublesome for those with certain eyeball and/or neurological differences' for the designers to consider for existing and future products.  :popcorn:

Discussing sensory phenomenology (ineffable by definition) seems a bit futile and truly I've gotta wonder if you're having a laugh.
Certainly not, do you expect the EE's that design this stuff to be optical experts, I don't and hence I asked for some guidance as I well know they can read English.  ;)

Quote
Aside from that backlight request, basic consideration of the common (two?) variants of color blindness would probably be good practice. It doesn't help me in particular but I'm not just on a quest to self-serve.
The higher range siblings do account for a vast array of display combinations to suit most any want or fashion in the Display menu as these pics I posted long ago in another thread demonstrate:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=1078312)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/?action=dlattach;attach=1078316)

SDS2000X Plus and all higher spec models have these ^ user selectable trace colors.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: arcitech on July 14, 2022, 11:21:11 am
Certainly not, do you expect the EE's that design this stuff to be optical experts, I don't and hence I asked for some guidance as I well know they can read English.  ;)

If these product designs involve only EEs and nobody serving as an HMI / UX expert, that explains a lot. (...which I say as an owner of zero SDS, but with an SDL & SPD). I think the Siglent scopes, based on what I've seen at least, have a bit more attention to UX than the boxes in my lab though.

IMO if an EE's designs are invisibly shuffling electrons, then EE domain knowledge is all they need to be successful. If an EE designs a box containing their boards/circuits, and that box has buttons and a screen, then that EE either needs to be a polymath, or needs to be working closely with someone who has relevant HMI/UX domain expertise.

I don't know how closely you work with Siglent, but I truly hope it's not just a group of EEs and the random bean counter.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Sully9 on August 09, 2022, 01:11:08 am
Hi Folks,

I've got an SDS1104X-E, stock OS 8.1 and FW 6.1.25R2 (if I remember correctly) that won't go past boot screen.

I've made several attempts at the powerup while tapping the MATH button "2 - 3 times a second" - no success.  Probably no surprise I'm REALLY hoping there's a few other tricks I can try before sending off for warranty repair.

Is it reasonable/safe for me to try
1) prepping a USB drive with an OS update
2) Can I feed the web server an ADS file

Nothing particularly crazy done to it.  About a year ago, I added  ntpd  using a method similar to what wpwrak described here
   https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1812089/#msg1812089 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1812089/#msg1812089)
Yesterday I was contemplating a change that I ultimately decided to leave well enough alone.  I can't rule out having started into it and set /usr/bin/siglent as rw before I decided to not bother.  So, there's a chance it never got switched back to ro.  Would have said it went through one reboot since then, but I left it running overnight and used it most of today before I rebooted and got here.


Here's more excruciating details in case any of it's useful:
- I get Siglent logo on screen and keys lit up (Run/Stop is orange, so R+G LEDs) for about 8 seconds, then they all turn off for half a second and all come back on.  (With a proper bootup, after blanking, I'm used to seeing the channel buttons light up in sequence).  I've let it sit for a few hours, no change.

+ Scope gets IP from DHCP server
+ Scope responds to ICMP pings
- SCPI and SOCKET ports 5024 and 5025 refuse connections
+ Web server is working, but
   - SCPI commands fail ("*IDN?" gets a "Device can not  be connected" response)
   - On Information section, "Instrument Model", "Software Version" and "Serial Number" are all empty
   - Instrument Control section just shows that spiffy Siglent logo
      + I can expand the controls section and the "Version Update" button appears to work
      + "Screen Save" and "Bin_to_CSV_Tool" buttons are functional, but not sure how much behind the web server are actually active.
      - "Waveform Save" obviously does NOT work.
+ if I put a USB drive in the front or back USB ports, once the logo is displaying, the drive does show activity as though it's being enumerated, and maybe files system is being checked.
- I have a thumb drive with a "siglent_device_startup.sh" to launch telnetd, but this appears to do nothing.

Thanks   
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 09, 2022, 01:17:20 am
Hi Folks,

I've got an SDS1104X-E, stock OS 8.1 and FW 6.1.25R2 (if I remember correctly) that won't go past boot screen.

I've made several attempts at the powerup while tapping the MATH button "2 - 3 times a second" - no success.  Probably no surprise I'm REALLY hoping there's a few other tricks I can try before sending off for warranty repair.

Is it reasonable/safe for me to try
1) prepping a USB drive with an OS update
2) Can I feed the web server an ADS file

Nothing particularly crazy done to it.  About a year ago, I added  ntpd  using a method similar to what wpwrak described here
   https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1812089/#msg1812089 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1812089/#msg1812089)
Yesterday I was contemplating a change that I ultimately decided to leave well enough alone.  I can't rule out having started into it and set /usr/bin/siglent as rw before I decided to not bother.  So, there's a chance it never got switched back to ro.  Would have said it went through one reboot since then, but I left it running overnight and used it most of today before I rebooted and got here.


Here's more excruciating details in case any of it's useful:
- I get Siglent logo on screen and keys lit up (Run/Stop is orange, so R+G LEDs) for about 8 seconds, then they all turn off for half a second and all come back on.  (With a proper bootup, after blanking, I'm used to seeing the channel buttons light up in sequence).  I've let it sit for a few hours, no change.

+ Scope gets IP from DHCP server
+ Scope responds to ICMP pings
- SCPI and SOCKET ports 5024 and 5025 refuse connections
+ Web server is working, but
   - SCPI commands fail ("*IDN?" gets a "Device can not  be connected" response)
   - On Information section, "Instrument Model", "Software Version" and "Serial Number" are all empty
   - Instrument Control section just shows that spiffy Siglent logo
      + I can expand the controls section and the "Version Update" button appears to work
      + "Screen Save" and "Bin_to_CSV_Tool" buttons are functional, but not sure how much behind the web server are actually active.
      - "Waveform Save" obviously does NOT work.
+ if I put a USB drive in the front or back USB ports, once the logo is displaying, the drive does show activity as though it's being enumerated, and maybe files system is being checked.
- I have a thumb drive with a "siglent_device_startup.sh" to launch telnetd, but this appears to do nothing.

Thanks
Welcome to the forum and check your messages with our contact details so to fix this scope for you.
Don't try/use any other method than using the tools Siglent provide to us.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on August 09, 2022, 08:10:57 am
...I've made several attempts at the powerup while tapping the MATH button "2 - 3 times a second" - no success.  Probably no surprise I'm REALLY hoping there's a few other tricks I can try before sending off for warranty repair...

Never heard about that MATH button tapping. What's it for?... Any other secret key combinations to be aware of?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 09, 2022, 08:52:22 am
...I've made several attempts at the powerup while tapping the MATH button "2 - 3 times a second" - no success.  Probably no surprise I'm REALLY hoping there's a few other tricks I can try before sending off for warranty repair...

Never heard about that MATH button tapping. What's it for?...
See here:
https://siglentna.com/operating-tip/oscilloscope-hardware-reset/

Quote
Any other secret key combinations to be aware of?
Lots but sorry can't share.

Even EDUMODE shouldn't be shared on a public forum.  :-X
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on August 09, 2022, 11:24:02 am
Thanks a lot anyway!  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Sully9 on August 09, 2022, 12:13:45 pm
Welcome to the forum and check your messages with our contact details so to fix this scope for you.
Don't try/use any other method than using the tools Siglent provide to us.

Thanks tautech, that did the trick and I'm back in business.  Thanks for the assistance!  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Sully9 on August 09, 2022, 11:22:24 pm
Thanks tautech, that did the trick and I'm back in business.  Thanks for the assistance!  :-+

I've got one abstract follow-up:  the web interface now shows
   LXI Extended Functions      null
   LXI Version                        1.5 LXI Core 2017

I'm going from memory, but pretty sure before the scope was out-to-lunch, the "LXI Extended Functions" had non-null info and "LXI Version" was something "1.5.x Core 2019".  Curious why those are now different.  Is this not contained in the OS/FW?  A setting somewhere I'm overlooking.

Background:  With the unbricked scope, I'm finishing some data collection where I want no doubts of consistency.  I've got some scripted SCPI for automation, and I rely on some saved setups.  Might be silly, but not interested in chasing differences in support functionality etc. between FW versions, so following recovery I "restored" OS to 8.1 and FW to 6.1.35R2 (I mispoke citing 6.1.25R2 as the FW ver in my earlier post).

When I step up my SCPI / LXI game, which will include a upgrade to V2 OS and current FW, how do I ensure there's nothing missing here?

Cheers!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 10, 2022, 08:45:00 am
Thanks tautech, that did the trick and I'm back in business.  Thanks for the assistance!  :-+

I've got one abstract follow-up:  the web interface now shows
   LXI Extended Functions      null
   LXI Version                        1.5 LXI Core 2017


I'm going from memory, but pretty sure before the scope was out-to-lunch, the "LXI Extended Functions" had non-null info and "LXI Version" was something "1.5.x Core 2019".  Curious why those are now different.  Is this not contained in the OS/FW?  A setting somewhere I'm overlooking.

Background:  With the unbricked scope, I'm finishing some data collection where I want no doubts of consistency.  I've got some scripted SCPI for automation, and I rely on some saved setups.  Might be silly, but not interested in chasing differences in support functionality etc. between FW versions, so following recovery I "restored" OS to 8.1 and FW to 6.1.35R2 (I mispoke citing 6.1.25R2 as the FW ver in my earlier post).

When I step up my SCPI / LXI game, which will include a upgrade to V2 OS and current FW, how do I ensure there's nothing missing here?

Cheers!
Yep, same as mine running latest OS and FW, see PC screenshot below.

Setups you should be able to Recall then Save again but to External for peace if mind and not loose them.
Likewise with personalized Default settings, Default and then Save as a Setup to External.

In reverse you can Recall Setups from External and then Save them to Internal.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: arcitech on August 10, 2022, 02:21:51 pm
[...]
Even EDUMODE shouldn't be shared on a public forum.  :-X

That's interesting. Is there an NDA that applies to "EDUMODE" or, barring that, any way those w/ access to the feature(s) to be aware of this prohibition?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 10, 2022, 11:30:51 pm
[...]
Even EDUMODE shouldn't be shared on a public forum.  :-X

That's interesting. Is there an NDA that applies to "EDUMODE" or, barring that, any way those w/ access to the feature(s) to be aware of this prohibition?
No, but students read the blog so we don't really need them knowing how to use or cancel such commands to shag around with their schools setups.
These 4ch X-E's have a lot of functionality so when in a classroom setup not all of it needs be accessible so needs be locked out.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Sully9 on August 15, 2022, 12:11:28 pm
Hi there
Can anyone explain the meaning of the beep when starting the SDS 1104X-E?
My device sometimes beeps twice at startup? (Firmware version: V6.1.35R2)
It's like a POST test but if you don't like it in Utilities you can turn the sound OFF. Use Default and it will be back unless you make your personal Default settings and save then using the Set to Default feature in the Save/Recall menu.

On the 6.1.35R2 FW, this POST beep seems independent of sound settings (which is fine IMO).

But my question is: I can't seem to find any documentation that details how to interpret the beep(s)  - does any exist?  I'd swear I've heard it beep 1x or sometimes 2x.

Does 2 beeps mean coolant level is low and I need to refill?
Title: Measurement of Q-factor
Post by: Willem2018 on August 20, 2022, 11:25:44 am
Hello,

Here a method to measure the Q-factor of an L-C circuit with a scope:
https://www.picotech.com/support/topic41255.html (https://www.picotech.com/support/topic41255.html)  and a very good explanation of the math behind it:
https://www.giangrandi.ch/electronics/ringdownq/ringdownq.shtml (https://www.giangrandi.ch/electronics/ringdownq/ringdownq.shtml)

Maybe an idea for the Siglent developers :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: luciof on August 25, 2022, 10:35:22 am
Some notes from using the scope (SDS 1104X-E 6.1.37R9).


A) Measure with statistics on: counts and statistic values should be automatically reset when changing time base or channel gain, without the need to press Clear Sweeps every time. Otherwise the shown statistics would be meaningless and possibly misleading.


B) Probe attenuation settings is more involved than needed. The procedure to change from 10x to 1x is:

1) select the desired channel
2) press Next Page to select Page 1 (each channel remembers its last page)
3) press Probe 10x (SW button #4 from the left)
4) press Probe 10x (SW button #1)
5) press the General Purpose knob (otherwise press the #1 button 17 times...)
6) rotate the knob clockwise to select 1x
... done! (whew...)

Given that the most used attenuation factors are 10x and 1x by far, the UI could be improved in the following way:
after step #3 (pressing SW button #4 "Probe xx") we should have a 1x-10x option active on the same SW button #4, so that pressing it one more time would quickly select the other attenuation factor (between 1x / 10x, or maybe 1x / 10x / custom1 so that a custom quick option could be made available when using those weird 50x or 2000x probes).

My point is: I'm used to scopes equipped with auto probe readout (yes, I'm a little bit spoiled...), but I'm aware of the limitation and accept that this feature has to be be omitted in a budget instrument; but there is no excuse to make things more complicated than strictly necessary.


C) Entering values with the GP knob often is quite complicated and error prone, and the knob press is not always reliable - but that is. Neverthless in many cases it would be helpful to assign the default value to a long press of the knob.


D) Small weird (but non-critical) bug in Data Logger (see pictures):
1) Select Utility p.2 -> Data Logger -> Sample Logger -> Exit: the time base changes from 1 ns/div to 50 us/div without even having started data logging; but the strange thing is in the LABEL settings on the soft menu
2) Press Return (SW button #6): soft menu changes to CH4 page 3


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 25, 2022, 10:49:09 am
Some notes from using the scope (SDS 1104X-E 6.1.37R9).

B) Probe attenuation settings is more involved than needed. The procedure to change from 10x to 1x is:
............
It doesn't need to be.
If starting at 1x (Factory Default), select channel and on P1 is the input attenuation menu that you can just keep tapping the button to increment to the correct attenuation needed.
When checking, channel assigning and compensating probes for every scope you sell you get pretty darn quick at this.  ;)

Other alternatives are using a user defined User Default where any settings can be assigned as your own default which is in addition to the custom Setups you can create and save.
All this custom functionality is in the Save/Recall menus.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: luciof on August 25, 2022, 12:15:40 pm
I forgot this:

E) Current acquisition modes (Normal, Peak Detect, Average nnn, Eres b) are not shown. They should be visible in screenshots for documentation purposes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 25, 2022, 12:30:05 pm
I forgot this:

E) Current acquisition modes (Normal, Peak Detect, Average nnn, Eres b) are not shown. They should be visible in screenshots for documentation purposes.
Can be if you have the Acquire menu visible when the screenshot is taken.

For deep record of how these are configured you can also save a Setup to USB as Siglent recently asked me to do when working through an issue we were having with a new instrument.
Upon them receiving it and uploading it into their instrument my settings were replicated.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: luciof on August 25, 2022, 04:25:37 pm
Some notes from using the scope (SDS 1104X-E 6.1.37R9).

B) Probe attenuation settings is more involved than needed. The procedure to change from 10x to 1x is:
............
It doesn't need to be.
If starting at 1x (Factory Default), select channel and on P1 is the input attenuation menu that you can just keep tapping the button to increment to the correct attenuation needed.
When checking, channel assigning and compensating probes for every scope you sell you get pretty darn quick at this.  ;)

Well, I'm not sure I fully understood your reply. After assigning a probe to each channel and compensating it, I'm done (this is a one-time operation). But then, while using the scope, I often need to change the Attenuation Factor many times.
Example: I'm probing at 10x, then enter Bode Plot using BNC 50 ohm cables etc. for impedance matching, start plotting and see an unexpected 20 dB deviation. Oops... Exit BP, then change from 10x to 1x each involved channel (this require the full 6-point procedure, no shortcuts; going from 10x to 1x requires the knob, because repeated tapping is way too long: the 20 items list can only be scrolled downwards with the button).
Another frequent case: working on low frequency, low voltage circuits is often convenient to switch the probes from 1x to 10x or viceversa (or even using DVM leads thru a BNC-banana adapter), but i like keeping the right amplitude readouts, so to avoid trivial mistakes and/or for taking proper screenshots; so, the correct Attenuator Factor settings are preferred and it would be nice to be able to select them as quickly and simply as possible (IMHO, this is not the case right now).
Of course, this can be done anyway, but a faster (and maybe more... clean?) procedure would help to not disrupt the workflow when deeply focused on a problem.

I forgot this:

E) Current acquisition modes (Normal, Peak Detect, Average nnn, Eres b) are not shown. They should be visible in screenshots for documentation purposes.
Can be if you have the Acquire menu visible when the screenshot is taken.

For deep record of how these are configured you can also save a Setup to USB as Siglent recently asked me to do when working through an issue we were having with a new instrument.
Upon them receiving it and uploading it into their instrument my settings were replicated.

Of course leaving the Acquire menu visible would give the info, but showing the acquisition mode flags on the screen IMO would be a better choice. I don't need to remember to show the Acquire menu, or may decide to clear the menu to make some more room.
Saving the settings is a very good thing, but I don't think this is the best use of them; moreover, after saving a few ones it's easy to forget their use (unless I write an annotated list. Being able to rename the saved setups would help).

I understand that these are minor improvements but I'm convinced they would be useful with a quite low implementation cost (I know, it looks like I'm a bit obsessed about the probe attenuation...).

A side note.
I purchased the SDS1104X-E to compliment an old LeCroy (4ch, 1GHz, 8 GSa/s, 16 Mpts, excellent analog front-end and a good assortment of passive, active, current and differential probes). But the device is very heavy and takeoff-like noisy, so I'd like to have a modern unit with lesser features but more handy (and it is). I also have handheld Fluke (100MHz) and Agilent (200 MHz, which I don't like). Good for field work (rare for me) and great for their isolated channels, but again the SDS fits most of my needs better (and, TBH, should it blow up, I'd cry for less time, so a little less concerns when touching higher voltages).
Actually I had also considered the SDS2104X-HD, but for its kind of price I chose not to take the risk: I had a previous bad experience with another cheap CN scope (a "known" firm I won't disclose) having good features on paper but a PITA to use. Based on my brief positive experience with this Siglent scope, probably I would have opted for the SDS2k HD (ok, maybe I would have thought about it a little longer, given the almost 6x price).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on August 25, 2022, 09:29:56 pm
Some notes from using the scope (SDS 1104X-E 6.1.37R9).

First of all, it’s always welcome when competent folks express their criticism and suggestions. This kind of feedback has helped Siglent to improve their products in the past and still does so today.

That having said, there have been tons of complaints and requests over the years, coming from folks with vastly different backgrounds. Not all of them really equitable or even realistic. In your case, your background appears to be an older midrange scope from LeCroy, which is a lucky incident as there is a strong relationship between LeCroy and Siglent. Nevertheless, Siglent have never tried to copy LeCroy, but of course they have a major influence. It is difficult for entry level products though, since LeCroy don’t make anything below upper midrange themselves…

To cut a long story short, we do have no shortage on complaints, wishes and suggestions. Many of them have become reality with time, but certainly not all of them. There are conflicting requests – one user dislikes exactly the one feature that another user has strongly requested – or also unrealistic requests, like expecting high-end features (not found anywhere else) in a cheap entry level device.

I have dealt with the SDS1000X-E series extensively a couple years ago, but then concentrated on the much more exciting touch-screen siblings SDS5000X, SDS2000X Plus, SDS6000A, SDS 2000X HD. So because of space restrictions, I have no SDS1000X-E at hand right now and will only comment on some basic considerations…


A) Measure with statistics on: counts and statistic values should be automatically reset when changing time base or channel gain, without the need to press Clear Sweeps every time. Otherwise the shown statistics would be meaningless and possibly misleading.

Conflicting request. There was a time, where it has been exactly the way as you describe. But that is not the correct behavior – the measurements do not change just because we alter the sensitivity or the timebase. A 1 MHz, 1 Vpp signal is still a 1 MHz, 1 Vpp signal, whether we look at it at 200 mV/div vertical gain and 500 ns/div timebase or 1 V/div and 1 ms/div. The majority of us hold the view that the user should be master and the scope is slave. So we, the users, decide when to clear the history or the statistics, whereas the scope should not clear anything whenever we touch a setting. When in doubt, it is easy to hit the [Clear Sweeps] button in order to reset the statistic. If on the other hand the history or statistics is destroyed by the scope because the firmware developer thought he knows better, then there is no button to bring it back.


C) Entering values with the GP knob often is quite complicated and error prone, and the knob press is not always reliable - but that is. Neverthless in many cases it would be helpful to assign the default value to a long press of the knob.

When I used these instruments, I always preferred multiple key presses over adjusting the universal control and instead of pushing the latter I always found some other (maybe even unused) menu knob to press and confirm a selection. We sometimes find something annoying, then we find a workaround, get used to it and all of a sudden it’s not that dramatic anymore.


I forgot this:

E) Current acquisition modes (Normal, Peak Detect, Average nnn, Eres b) are not shown. They should be visible in screenshots for documentation purposes.

How far do you want to take this? Current rendering (dots, lines) and reconstruction modes (x, sinc) aren’t shown either.

Where would you want to place this information? There is not a lot of spare space to place additional information.

Finally: have you looked at the screenshots of competing instruments? Could it be that the Siglent already shows more information than usual?


A side note.
I purchased the SDS1104X-E to compliment an old LeCroy (4ch, 1GHz, 8 GSa/s, 16 Mpts, excellent analog front-end and a good assortment of passive, active, current and differential probes). But the device is very heavy and takeoff-like noisy, so I'd like to have a modern unit with lesser features but more handy (and it is). I also have handheld Fluke (100MHz) and Agilent (200 MHz, which I don't like). Good for field work (rare for me) and great for their isolated channels, but again the SDS fits most of my needs better (and, TBH, should it blow up, I'd cry for less time, so a little less concerns when touching higher voltages).
Actually I had also considered the SDS2104X-HD, but for its kind of price I chose not to take the risk: I had a previous bad experience with another cheap CN scope (a "known" firm I won't disclose) having good features on paper but a PITA to use. Based on my brief positive experience with this Siglent scope, probably I would have opted for the SDS2k HD (ok, maybe I would have thought about it a little longer, given the almost 6x price).

Well, you got an excellent analog frontend again, even though it is now only 200 (235) MHz bandwidth. Of course, any bells and whistles like internal switchable 50 ohms signal path become available only with the 2000-series and auto Probe factor (only if probes support it!) starts with the SDS2000X Plus – all of which you cannot take for granted in competing 2000-series products.

In the light of this an SDS2000X Plus or HD would have been a whole different world. The touch-screen makes all the difference – but of course it’s bigger, heavier and much more expensive. But then again, the 1000X-E series is the only one that has a datalogger. Not really surprising, because everyone will dedicate their cheapest scope for long-term tasks like datalogging…
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: robert.rozee on August 26, 2022, 06:12:44 am
just a crazy idea - has anyone thought of creating a small box with some switches on the front that connects to the scope via ethernet or USB and sends SCPI commands to do things like change probe attenuation settings in response to the user pressing the buttons?

while a proof-of-concept may be highly complicated, a 'final design' might be something as simple as a RPi single-board computer. if you could talk to the HTML API, it may even be possible to emulate turning knobs on the scope. and if commands could be sent to the scope application via the serial console (with a little soldering) the implemention could be as trivial as a arduino or similar.


cheers,
rob   :-)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 26, 2022, 08:48:30 am
just a crazy idea - has anyone thought of creating a small box with some switches on the front that connects to the scope via ethernet or USB and sends SCPI commands to do things like change probe attenuation settings in response to the user pressing the buttons?

while a proof-of-concept may be highly complicated, a 'final design' might be something as simple as a RPi single-board computer. if you could talk to the HTML API, it may even be possible to emulate turning knobs on the scope. and if commands could be sent to the scope application via the serial console (with a little soldering) the implemention could be as trivial as a arduino or similar.

cheers,
rob   :-)
Yours and luciof's comments have me thinking.......

Now it's entirely another thing if Siglent are listening and can afford to divert their programmers away from seemingly more important tasks but certainly there is some room for improvement and polish of the input attenuation menu.
These 4ch X-E's have a different channel menu structure than SDS1202X-E in that the 4ch departs into a deeper level of the menu just for setting input attenuation where in the screenshot below there's obviously room for a further 4 button selections which if Siglent did spend a little time we might have at least 3 or even 4 button push choices for attenuation setting rather than need to use the encoder for the most common input attenuation settings.

Based on simple deduction 1x, 10x and 100x would be the obvious choices for dedicated buttons and if another was to be considered what would it be ?  :popcorn:

For those that know this scope more than most maybe a fast access and previously saved User Custom setting ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 26, 2022, 09:11:59 am
Some notes from using the scope (SDS 1104X-E 6.1.37R9).

B) Probe attenuation settings is more involved than needed. The procedure to change from 10x to 1x is:
............
It doesn't need to be.
If starting at 1x (Factory Default), select channel and on P1 is the input attenuation menu that you can just keep tapping the button to increment to the correct attenuation needed.
When checking, channel assigning and compensating probes for every scope you sell you get pretty darn quick at this.  ;)

Well, I'm not sure I fully understood your reply. After assigning a probe to each channel and compensating it, I'm done (this is a one-time operation). But then, while using the scope, I often need to change the Attenuation Factor many times.
Example: I'm probing at 10x, then enter Bode Plot using BNC 50 ohm cables etc. for impedance matching, start plotting and see an unexpected 20 dB deviation. Oops... Exit BP, then change from 10x to 1x each involved channel (this require the full 6-point procedure, no shortcuts; going from 10x to 1x requires the knob, because repeated tapping is way too long: the 20 items list can only be scrolled downwards with the button).
Another frequent case: working on low frequency, low voltage circuits is often convenient to switch the probes from 1x to 10x or viceversa (or even using DVM leads thru a BNC-banana adapter), but i like keeping the right amplitude readouts, so to avoid trivial mistakes and/or for taking proper screenshots; so, the correct Attenuator Factor settings are preferred and it would be nice to be able to select them as quickly and simply as possible (IMHO, this is not the case right now).
Of course, this can be done anyway, but a faster (and maybe more... clean?) procedure would help to not disrupt the workflow when deeply focused on a problem.
As you may be aware I'm quite familiar with this scope however it never does any harm to spend a few minutes in front of one again with a open mind forgetting the familiarity you have with it and eyeballing it more critically.

IMO the current attenuation setting methodology suffers from the lack of an indented multipurpose encoder as it only lends itself to fast and precise operation with the use of both hands unlike increasing attenuation where one can advance down the menu list with just button presses.

However if using 2 hands instead of one the UI works well but when speed is required one hand must stay positioned near the encoder and on 3 fingers leaving the thumb and forefinger for operating and pressing the encoder.
As there are many uses for the encoder in this scope it's something that does require practice if for nothing other than to become competent in its use for the many virtual alphanumeric keyboards in this scope all implemented to negate the need for endless encoder rotation.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 26, 2022, 09:20:42 am
Actually I had also considered the SDS2104X-HD, but for its kind of price I chose not to take the risk: I had a previous bad experience with another cheap CN scope (a "known" firm I won't disclose) having good features on paper but a PITA to use. Based on my brief positive experience with this Siglent scope, probably I would have opted for the SDS2k HD (ok, maybe I would have thought about it a little longer, given the almost 6x price).
Yes the HD is a major step in outlay over these 4ch X-E's as is the X Plus but at $1400 they are a lot more palatable.
HD have a few more fruits as well as 12 bit over the X Plus but they have the 50 MHz inbuilt AWG and a special 10 bit mode of their own, albeit to just 100 MHz.

Anyways if you get the chance to have a play with a SDS2104X Plus do so as these really are a good step up from these great little X-E's as the X Plus touch, mouse and physical controls make for another level of user experience.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: luciof on August 26, 2022, 10:12:32 am
To cut a long story short, we do have no shortage on complaints, wishes and suggestions. Many of them have become reality with time, but certainly not all of them. There are conflicting requests – one user dislikes exactly the one feature that another user has strongly requested – or also unrealistic requests, like expecting high-end features (not found anywhere else) in a cheap entry level device.

Yes, I'm sure about that; plus, more features cause more complaints than cheers.
I'm aware that my views are somewhat biased, neverthless I think they deserve some thought even if not important enough to be implemented.

Regarding statistics: i know that changing H and V settings ideally should not matter, but in reality a single step in base time or gain would change things quite a bit (unless we have a very stable and clean waveform). But I admit this is more a matter of personal preference; resetting statistics after any change would help to not overlook a probable source of errors.

Instead, I'm convinced that a screenshot should include the current acquisition mode (a single symbol in the top line would be enough, better yet a few more characters to show the average count or ERES bits; this should be easily fitted). Different acquisition modes heavily impact waveform appearance without even being apparent, so they should be clearly marked somewhere.
IMO interpolation modes are less important because they are quite visible when  they matter (usually on very fast sweep settings).

Finally, I find data entry with the encoder a bit inconvenient (and sometimes frustrating), but I can't envise a really better method, so that is...
Maybe a small improvement would be to assign the default value (in its context) to a long press of the encoder.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: luciof on August 26, 2022, 10:50:32 am
Based on simple deduction 1x, 10x and 100x would be the obvious choices for dedicated buttons and if another was to be considered what would it be ?  :popcorn:

For those that know this scope more than most maybe a fast access and previously saved User Custom setting ?

Possible UI improvement:

the first picture is the usual channel settings page #1; pressing the SW button #4 (Probe xxx) the subpage is shown.
In the current UI only button #1 (Probe xxx) and button #6 (return) are populated.

Instead, according to the second picture, button #4 (the same one just pressed) is assigned to a "toggle 1x - 10x", which are by far the most used. Other buttons may be assigned to custom attenuation (same as Custom A, B, etc. from the drop list on button #1). Everyone can choose his most used settings and make them as default.

This way, I think that switching between 1x and 10x is the fastest possible: select channel page 1, then press two times the Probe button. That is.
Other (2 or 3) preferred values are also promptly available at the press of another button.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 26, 2022, 11:02:21 am
Thanks luciof
Siglent are pretty good listeners and putting good ideas to them often bear fruit but as the last firmware release was not long ago we may need to wait a while to see if any of our imaginings get incorporated into the next version.

That said we should leave it to other owners to also consider these possible improvements too and give them some time to provide further feedback for Siglent to digest.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 1audio on August 26, 2022, 05:19:36 pm
I have a related suggestion. One of the limitations of all in one scopes is both the number of controls and the need for the controls to be colocated with the display. This was essential in the old days of analog scopes where the knob controlled switches mechanically. I would like to have a separate control on a cable that can be more conveniently located in the workspace. I got this gadget https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08V95ZZLM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08V95ZZLM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)  initially to provide a volume control for my monitor. I'm not a fan of buttons for volume. Looking at it I think software could be crafted to use it to control the attenuators and timebase pretty easily since they are all software controlled.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 26, 2022, 09:20:38 pm
I have a related suggestion. One of the limitations of all in one scopes is both the number of controls and the need for the controls to be colocated with the display. This was essential in the old days of analog scopes where the knob controlled switches mechanically. I would like to have a separate control on a cable that can be more conveniently located in the workspace. I got this gadget https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08V95ZZLM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08V95ZZLM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)  initially to provide a volume control for my monitor. I'm not a fan of buttons for volume. Looking at it I think software could be crafted to use it to control the attenuators and timebase pretty easily since they are all software controlled.
Not that I'm a coder in any way or form  :scared: however what you propose is a novel idea and with a little code crafting to use the Siglent SCPI command set that little box could certainly be used in conjunction with a PC to push the SCPI commands into the scope to enable basic operation, basic being the key word.
However I doubt very much Siglent would invest time in such a concept that only was to provide basic use of their extremely capable and biggest selling DSO.

Still, creative ideas fuel the mind.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 1audio on August 26, 2022, 10:29:21 pm
I would find it useful for troubleshooting. For a USB scope it might be really useful since a mouse and keyboard leave no hands for probes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on August 27, 2022, 09:09:26 am
I too find the current probe attenuation settings to be unnecessarily cumbersome.

Based on simple deduction 1x, 10x and 100x would be the obvious choices for dedicated buttons and if another was to be considered what would it be ?  :popcorn:

Yes!... there are 4 free slots that could be your three proposals and another, let's say, Custom1 setting as was suggested previously. That would be much easier to operate and, in case you need another more unusual setting, go to the first (and current) selection button.

Luciof's suggestion is also very good!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on August 27, 2022, 09:55:05 am
Due to fact that 1x 10x change is most typical in normal common use. All others are much more rare if look all users commonly.

I think this example would work quite well as a quick setup. No need do more sophisticated and complex. Poor and simple but works for "99.97%" of  use cases.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1575202;image)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 27, 2022, 10:03:46 am
Due to fact that 1x 10x change is most typical in normal common use. All others are much more rare if look all users commonly.

I think this example would work quite well as a quick setup. No need do more sophisticated and complex. Poor and simple but works for "99.97%" of  use cases.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1575202;image)
Certainly any simple and elegant remedy is welcomed.
Now it just need be applied to:
SDS1202X-E
SDS1*04X-E
SDS1104X-U
SDS2**2X-E
SHS1000X
SHS800X
DL+ and CML+ ?
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on August 28, 2022, 09:08:04 am
To cut a long story short, we do have no shortage on complaints, wishes and suggestions. Many of them have become reality with time, but certainly not all of them. There are conflicting requests – one user dislikes exactly the one feature that another user has strongly requested – or also unrealistic requests, like expecting high-end features (not found anywhere else) in a cheap entry level device.

Yes, I'm sure about that; plus, more features cause more complaints than cheers.
I'm aware that my views are somewhat biased, neverthless I think they deserve some thought even if not important enough to be implemented.

Rest assured that your input will not be discarded unseen.

As you can see, some folks already think about improving the probe factor selection and I might make a proposal for showing the acquisition mode - which isn't as straight forward as you think, because if it should be implemented, then we need a solution not only for the low end SDS1000X-E but also the touch screen instruments, whose UI looks completely different. And in both cases, there is not much space. The SDS1000X-E for example has to show the main and zoom timebase together with the AWG settings in the top line already, barely leaving any space for additional information. In the past some thought there is still space left in the side menu, but no, this is used up by the MSO extension, so when considering such things, we cannot avoid looking over the fence a bit.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on August 28, 2022, 07:29:58 pm
Actually, it turns out that Siglent is listening in advance and implemented the display of the acquisition mode already in the SDS2000X HD, at least starting with FW 1.2.1.0 - see attached screenshot.

Consequently, we can expect this feature to become available on all touchscreen DSOs sooner or later.

All there's left to do is to ask Siglent quite nicely and innocently if there are plans to make this available on the non-touch scopes as well... ;)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 16, 2022, 11:30:59 pm
After some checks for a friend that required 'must have file timestamps' for portable use where a LAN or WiFi connection may not be available for the NTP time server Manual Sync or Sync on boot the not so plainly obvious solution needed be checked before advise could be offered

So simple......everyone has a smartphone right ?

Set phone Personal Hotspot to ON and using a TP Link TL-WN725N USB WiFi dongle connected to the scope set the scopes I/O to WLAN and in WiFi Settings search for your phones WiFi ID, select it and enter its PW from the phones tethering app then hit Connect in the scopes WiFi Set menu to get a internet connection via your phones data package.

Your scope must have the correct time location setting and a local NTP server IP address entered and saved in the Time feature in Utility menus.
In my tests it manually Synced instantly and auto Synced flawlessly at boot when WiFi tethered to an iPhone 6 with a valid data package.  :phew:

Really it was pretty straightforward and another neat little trick these scopes are capable of.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Muttley Snickers on September 17, 2022, 12:14:46 am
After some checks for a friend that required 'must have file timestamps' for portable use where a LAN or WiFi connection may not be available for the NTP time server Manual Sync or Sync on boot the not so plainly obvious solution needed be checked before advise could be offered.

So simple......everyone has a smartphone right ?

Sounds like more of a fiend than a friend.   ::)

Anyway, in the method described above you are still connecting to the NTP server to synchronise the time no different than if you were using a wired or wireless internet connection. To my understanding the SDS-1104XE does not have an onboard real time clock yet has a menu to enter the current date and time, perhaps yours friends question was does the unit increment time once it is set in a stand alone application without any form of internet connection? 

The video below shows how to set the time, apply time stamps and configure the NTP server but no mention of whether the clock is maintained during that power cycle, I am aware that the time and date will be reset on the next reboot. Also, page 39 of this thread has some good information about the RTC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7FY4t__8ws (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7FY4t__8ws)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 17, 2022, 12:56:01 am
After some checks for a friend that required 'must have file timestamps' for portable use where a LAN or WiFi connection may not be available for the NTP time server Manual Sync or Sync on boot the not so plainly obvious solution needed be checked before advise could be offered.

So simple......everyone has a smartphone right ?

Sounds like more of a fiend than a friend.   ::)

Anyway, in the method described above you are still connecting to the NTP server to synchronize the time no different than if you were using a wired or wireless internet connection. To my understanding the SDS-1104XE does not have an onboard real time clock yet has a menu to enter the current date and time, perhaps yours friends question was does the unit increment time once it is set in a stand alone application without any form of internet connection? 
Gotcha !
I'll double check this for the fiend today or tomorrow.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 17, 2022, 03:42:41 am
Especially for that friend fiend:

Further NTP clock investigations.
I found a bug in that the most forward year that can be set is 2037 when cheekily attempting to set it to 2525 if man is still alive..... :-DD
Default date is 1970 when some of you weren't even a glint in your fathers eye.  ;D

BS aside, the following screenshots show a 2037 date set with the clock advancing without an internet connection.
The following 2 show after a reboot the time/date is lost and the default 1970 time advances.

Here there certainly is a chance 2 screenshots at entirely different dates could indeed end up with the exact same timestamp and without notes taken the only way to distinguish them would be different filenames applied within the Save/Recall menu or the incrementing filename when saved to the same media.

Interestingly in W10 File Explorer Details view PNG2 properties does show the set date 1 ‎January ‎2037, ‏‎1:02:02 am whereas PNG's 3 and 4 with a default 1970 date after reboot reveal a ‎Tuesday, ‎1 ‎January ‎1980, ‏‎1:00:00 am timestamp deep in their file properties.

With luck this further info will satisfy the fiend.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on September 17, 2022, 05:09:53 am
I found a bug in that the most forward year that can be set is 2037

...the default 1970 time.

If it's Unix time you should be able to go as far as 19 January 2038

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_time
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on September 22, 2022, 05:56:18 pm
Hi, folks!

I'm facing something that's bugging me big time and it's the "view order preference" between normal channel waves and REF waves. I'm reading a 1MHZ to 15MHz sweep that I want to compare with another more low freq. 150KHz wave. If I save the first sweep into REF1 but being a "solid" wave as it is at 10ms, I cannot see any other wave on top of it to compare.

It seems that all other waves are displayed "behind" the REF and thus, impossible to see in this case. Is there a way to tell the scope to put the normal channels on top of the REF to be able to see anything?

This is the resulting image:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1597435;image)

...and this is what lies invisible behind once I turn off REF1:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1597441;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 22, 2022, 08:20:45 pm
When multiples channels are used the topmost is always the channel assigned/selected to be controlled.
Does this not happen ?

Have you tried adjusting the settings in the Display menu to gain transparency through the Ref trace ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on September 23, 2022, 07:11:33 am
When multiples channels are used the topmost is always the channel assigned/selected to be controlled.
Does this not happen ?

Exactly. No matter what channel I select, REF1 is always on top of them all.

Have you tried adjusting the settings in the Display menu to gain transparency through the Ref trace ?
Yes, to no avail... No matter what level of Intensity or Transparence I select, REF1 is stone solid and on top of all channels.



BTW:
OS 8.3
FW 6.1.37R9
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on September 23, 2022, 07:22:06 am
Upon further analysis:

When multiples channels are used the topmost is always the channel assigned/selected to be controlled.
Does this not happen ?

Yes, channels 1, 2 3 & 4 act like that but once any REF channel is selected, it sits on top of the normal ones, no matter which one gets assigned/selected.

ASMOF, different REF channels also act as you said, that is, the selected REF channel sits on top of the other REF channels but they're all always on top of the normal channels. This is counterintuitive and not very useful I'm afraid  ::)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on September 23, 2022, 01:24:37 pm
Upon further analysis:

When multiples channels are used the topmost is always the channel assigned/selected to be controlled.
Does this not happen ?

Yes, channels 1, 2 3 & 4 act like that but once any REF channel is selected, it sits on top of the normal ones, no matter which one gets assigned/selected.

ASMOF, different REF channels also act as you said, that is, the selected REF channel sits on top of the other REF channels but they're all always on top of the normal channels. This is counterintuitive and not very useful I'm afraid  ::)

Somehow I understand designer thinking about this reference priority on screen but just as you told it is not optimal in some cases if example really need this kind of reference you displayed. So perhaps it is better user can select also this or example set transparency.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 23, 2022, 07:22:12 pm
Upon further analysis:

When multiples channels are used the topmost is always the channel assigned/selected to be controlled.
Does this not happen ?

Yes, channels 1, 2 3 & 4 act like that but once any REF channel is selected, it sits on top of the normal ones, no matter which one gets assigned/selected.

ASMOF, different REF channels also act as you said, that is, the selected REF channel sits on top of the other REF channels but they're all always on top of the normal channels. This is counterintuitive and not very useful I'm afraid  ::)

Somehow I understand designer thinking about this reference priority on screen but just as you told it is not optimal in some cases if example really need this kind of reference you displayed. So perhaps it is better user can select also this or example set transparency.
As the Ref waveform is like no other for this scope, please share this designer thinking ?  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on September 24, 2022, 07:59:37 am
Tautech, while rf-loop answers your question, have you experienced this same REF waves behaviour? I want to know if this is a problem with my SDS1104X-E or is it a FW problem.

In other words: a bug  ::)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 24, 2022, 11:02:43 am
Tautech, while rf-loop answers your question, have you experienced this same REF waves behaviour? I want to know if this is a problem with my SDS1104X-E or is it a FW problem.

In other words: a bug  ::)
No bug, this is intended behaviour and like you I ask why ?
It makes no sense that any Ref waveform cannot be transparent if/when the user requires it so ?

It has alway been this way and we have accepted it as so and not asked why but we need question this choice now after some discussion.
Before we ask Siglent to make changes we need more feedback.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on September 24, 2022, 04:54:32 pm
It makes no sense that any Ref waveform cannot be transparent if/when the user requires it so ? .../... Before we ask Siglent to make changes we need more feedback.  :popcorn:

Feedback? well you stated it correctly: it makes no sense as it is now. If the wave is "hollow", er... well... somewhat right, but if the wave is solid it is completely useless.

For instance, we cannot do this (minute 5 onwards):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Gh4EC02LsA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Gh4EC02LsA)

...which we can perfectly do with a RIGOL scope, much older and underspecced  ::)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Domitronic on September 24, 2022, 08:54:03 pm

Hello,

my SDS1104X-E seems to struggle to display square waves with low frequency correctly. There is a slight slope which is not there when looking with my other scope. Is this normal or just my device? Waveform is a square wave with 100Hz, 3Vpp and 1.5V offset generated by AWG of SDS2354X+.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: modoran on September 25, 2022, 02:47:03 pm
Is the probe compensated correctly ?   
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Domitronic on September 25, 2022, 03:03:41 pm
Is the probe compensated correctly ?

No probe connected, just BNC cable to the AWG.

Can somebody please check the same with the SDS1104X-E and an AWG? Just a square wave as shown in the picture with 100Hz, 3Vpp. Would like to know if this is just my device or others show similar waveforms.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Zoli on September 25, 2022, 03:27:53 pm
Is the probe compensated correctly ?

No probe connected, just BNC cable to the AWG.

Can somebody please check the same with the SDS1104X-E and an AWG? Just a square wave as shown in the picture with 100Hz, 3Vpp. Would like to know if this is just my device or others show similar waveforms.
Here you are(excuse my FY-6800):
Edit: Note the difference between the acquiring depths; side-note: the mentioned effect happens when somewhere is a capacitor in series with the signal.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on September 25, 2022, 05:06:56 pm

Hello,

my SDS1104X-E seems to struggle to display square waves with low frequency correctly. There is a slight slope which is not there when looking with my other scope. Is this normal or just my device? Waveform is a square wave with 100Hz, 3Vpp and 1.5V offset generated by AWG of SDS2354X+.

I'm seeing the same thing.

I'm also seeing a 2mV positive offset in AC coupling mode.  Running self-calibration has no effect.

These are real issues.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on September 26, 2022, 09:15:03 am
Regarding the square wave issue, my SDS1104X-E (hacked) shows the same as yours but the no-input / AC-coupling seems a bit better.



Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on September 26, 2022, 02:21:42 pm
Regarding the square wave issue, my SDS1104X-E (hacked) shows the same as yours but the no-input / AC-coupling seems a bit better.
What firmware are you at?  I'm running 8.3.6.1.37R9.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on September 26, 2022, 04:05:37 pm
Exactly the same FW than yours!

HW Version: 01-05
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on September 26, 2022, 04:27:09 pm
Exactly the same FW than yours!

HW Version: 01-05
Mine is 09-06.  I wonder if that would account for it?

Does anyone know if there is a process for making Siglent aware of these issues?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Zoli on September 26, 2022, 04:46:31 pm
Exactly the same FW than yours!

HW Version: 01-05
Mine is 09-06.  I wonder if that would account for it?

Does anyone know if there is a process for making Siglent aware of these issues?
tautech(see a few of posts above) is following the thread, and if he finds problems, will report to Siglent. PM him to be sure.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nez on September 27, 2022, 02:18:27 am
I seem to have the same problem

6.1.37R9
HW 01-03
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Domitronic on September 27, 2022, 08:41:10 am

Thanks for the feedback. So if other scopes show the same problem with low frequency square waves it seems to be somehow "normal" for this series. Doesn't really boost the confidence in it.

No real issue here with offset in AC coupling. Starts with +500µV to -200µV when turned on. And after warming up for half an hour its down below +/-200µV on all channels. Thats fine for me.

Software Version: 6.1.37R8
Uboot-OS Version: 7.2
FPGA Version: 2021-11-08
Hardware Version: 01-03
Product Type: SDS1104X-E

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: luciof on September 27, 2022, 09:48:13 am
Same thing on my 1104X-E (a slope of about 3 pixels in 5 ms).
Tried the same setup on another scope, and the wave is absolutely horizontal and flat.
Looks like a less than perfect compensation in the scope's front-end.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Willem2018 on September 27, 2022, 04:13:23 pm
Same for my SDS1104X-E.
Droop on the positive and negative side of the square wave approx. 50mV
Indeed, very strange!

Mean Offset in AC coupling @ 500uV/ each channel open input(!):
<=0.2 divisions for all 4 channels.

SW 6.1.37R8
U-BOOT 7.2
FPGA 2021-11-08
HW 00-03
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on September 27, 2022, 04:20:54 pm
Thanks for reporting in folks.

For those that had acceptable offset in AC coupling, have you done the 200MHz BW "improvement"?

In my case its even worse on channel 2.  After letting the scope warm-up for 2Hrs  this is what I get.

Ch. 1 +1.89mv
Ch. 2 +3.05mv
Ch. 3 +1.32mv
Ch. 4  +1.30mv

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on September 27, 2022, 04:46:26 pm
for the low frequency square wave issue, it seems to have a limited time span.  These traces are at ~33Hz and you can see a dip at the beginning that corrects after 8ms or so.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on September 27, 2022, 05:16:23 pm
For those that had acceptable offset in AC coupling, have you done the 200MHz BW "improvement"?

Yes  8)

I can also confirm that things go better with some warming time.


OS: 8.3
FW: 6.1.37R9
HW: 01.05
FPGA: 2021-11-08
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Domitronic on September 27, 2022, 05:26:17 pm

For those that had acceptable offset in AC coupling, have you done the 200MHz BW "improvement"?


No hack on my scope, still the 100Mhz version as i bought it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on September 27, 2022, 05:52:17 pm
Regarding the low frequency square wave issue, it also seems to vary with warmup time. The first image is with some 10' warmup and the second is 10' later (see the timestamp). As warming is in progress, the right side of the wave is developing another dip opposite to the left one.

Again:
OS: 8.3
FW: 6.1.37R9
HW: 01.05
FPGA: 2021-11-08
Hacked
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on September 27, 2022, 09:01:28 pm
The ones I had showed previously @33Hz were after nearly 3Hrs of on time.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on September 30, 2022, 06:56:23 pm
I had contacted tautech about this a few days back.  He said he had some ideas and would be checking into it.

As far as my offset on AC coupled mode.  I guess I can use channels 3 and 4 for low signal work and just subtract out the error.  In the mean time I will check with the vendor (Amazon) on support options.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on October 02, 2022, 04:35:32 pm
I reached out to Siglent about these issues a few days ago.  Still no response from them.  I'll update if I hear anything from them.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Domitronic on October 02, 2022, 08:52:50 pm

I wouldn't expect a fix for the square wave topic. Doesn't seem to be a big issue if it wasn't discovered for years. My scope is from 2018 and I didn't realize it until now. Without a 2nd scope I still wouldn't have noticed. So i guess that Siglent doesn't even bother.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: MathWizard on October 08, 2022, 11:49:51 pm
I still didn't order a logic analyzer, I'm sure an Arduino project can handle all I need for now.

But what's the right way to capture serial data with a sds1104x-e ? All I've been doing is switching to Decode and choosing a protocol. And also in the trigger menu, choosing the serial protocol. And then just doing single capture with the time-offset to the far left.

And that's ok for short signals, but when the clock speed is very fast, and there's big delays in the data or a lot of data, soon using single capture, you have the the timebase so large that you lose the detail at the serial clock time base.

Is that the right way to do it, and can you record big long serial data streams to a flashdrive or PC ?

The 1980's MSO's must not have had much memory recording / capturing.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on October 09, 2022, 12:17:55 am
I still didn't order a logic analyzer, I'm sure an Arduino project can handle all I need for now.

But what's the right way to capture serial data with a sds1104x-e ? All I've been doing is switching to Decode and choosing a protocol. And also in the trigger menu, choosing the serial protocol. And then just doing single capture with the time-offset to the far left.

And that's ok for short signals, but when the clock speed is very fast, and there's big delays in the data or a lot of data, soon using single capture, you have the the timebase so large that you lose the detail at the serial clock time base.

Is that the right way to do it, and can you record big long serial data streams to a flashdrive or PC ?

The 1980's MSO's must not have had much memory recording / capturing.
Use the dual timebase Zoom feature.
In the primary timebase you can have several 100 packets displayed and pan through each one in Zoom mode.
To capture/export use the Save/Recall menu to save the capture in a filetype than best suits your needs.
BIN files were introduced to allow for much smaller file size than CSV but it's very easy to use the BIN to CSV file converter that you can download from within the scope from the Sace/Recall menu and install on your PC.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Dave Wise on October 22, 2022, 01:39:41 am
What became of kcbrown's slope trigger problem?  Discussion seemed to trail off after post #1924.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Micke27 on November 10, 2022, 04:50:08 pm
I am a  newbie on this fantastic forum, hope this is the right thread...

My problem: cannot upgrade sds1104X-E to V6.1.37R9.
Upgrade file is: SDS1xx4X-E_V6.1.37R9.ADS

Current config is:
V6.1.37R8
OS: 8.3
FPGA: 2021-11-08
HW: 09.06

I have downloaded the upgrade file from siglenteu.com, unzipped and transferred to a USB stick. The USB stick was freshly FAT32 formatted.
The scope identifies the .ADS file on the USB stick.

It displays "The upgrade file is invalid. Please restart it".

Any ideas from the forum experts?
Thanks

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Micke27 on November 10, 2022, 04:52:11 pm
Forgot to add, this is a non-hacked scope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on November 10, 2022, 05:42:10 pm
I reached out to Siglent about these issues a few days ago.  Still no response from them.  I'll update if I hear anything from them.
Forgot to update this.  I was trying to contact Siglent the wrong way.  When I went to the the Siglent NA website and filled out a service request, they got back to me in less than 2 hours.  Amazing service.  I also got help from tautech. :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on November 10, 2022, 05:49:14 pm
Any ideas from the forum experts?
I don't claim to be an expert but I've updated all my Siglent equipment, some more than once, and never had a problem.  It could be the file on the EU site is corrupt.  You might try downloading the update from the NA site and see if that works better.

It might also be a glitch in your workflow.  if a file from another source does not fix the problem, then let us know exactly the process you use in precise detail (very button bush, etc..).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Micke27 on November 10, 2022, 06:16:03 pm
It's hard to imagine how I could have done something wrong, but here we go:

Downloaded from siglentna site: SDS1xx4X-E_V6.1.37R9_EN.zip
Extracted all files.
Formatted (full format) a 1 GB USB stick with FAT32.
Copied file SDS1xx4X-E_V6.1.37R9.ADS to the root directory.
Started the scope.
Inserted USB stick.
Utility -Next page – Next page – Update – Firmware.
Picture siglent-1 shows that the file is recognized.
Press to update
Siglent-2 shows the error message.



Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Micke27 on November 10, 2022, 06:30:59 pm
This is interesting...
When I copied the entire file contents to the USB stick, in a folder with the same name as downloaded, then the upgrade finally worked!
Why does the scope need the two pdf files?

Anyway, thanks BillyO for putting me on the right track.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on November 10, 2022, 06:40:01 pm
Glad to see it worked.  I just re-did mine and it worked fine from the root directory.  However, I actually had to navigate to the file and/or press the multi-purpose button

The two PDF files are for you, not the scope.  It should not need them.  Mine did not.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 10, 2022, 07:03:02 pm
This is interesting...
When I copied the entire file contents to the USB stick, in a folder with the same name as downloaded, then the upgrade finally worked!
Why does the scope need the two pdf files?
It don't.

Something else was the issue.
A Quick Format in Windoze with FAT32 and 4k clusters is the default that just works but USB stick size must be a max of 8GB. Any smaller size just works.

I have one stick with a Firmware folder only containing ADS files some 30 in all for all manner of instruments and they all work just fine.

Anyhoo, you're sorted now except for doing a Self Cal after ~30 min warm up.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Domitronic on November 10, 2022, 07:16:51 pm
I reached out to Siglent about these issues a few days ago.  Still no response from them.  I'll update if I hear anything from them.
Forgot to update this.  I was trying to contact Siglent the wrong way.  When I went to the the Siglent NA website and filled out a service request, they got back to me in less than 2 hours.  Amazing service.  I also got help from tautech. :-+

What was the feedback from Siglent and solution for offsets and square wave issues?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on November 10, 2022, 07:58:46 pm
The offsets were a return to Siglent for calibration, the square waves were what Rob helped me with and involved a little calibration (more a compensation adjustment) which I have not yet done.  I didn't want to do it before I sent the scope back to Siglent and once I got it back the issues was quite a bit less pronounced.  I guess when they did the re-cal it got a least partially fixed.

They never questioned the increased BW or all the options.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on November 11, 2022, 01:30:57 pm
Hi there!

My SDS1104X-E (hacked) gets hung frequently in XY mode, which is very annoying.
Look at the next image:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1636952)
BC109B transistor in a Curve Tracer

So far so good. CH2 (Y) responds flawlessly but if I try to reduce horizontal volts per division with the X channel (CH1) it freezes with no buttons or knobs responding at all. The only way to get out of that is to press the ON button for some seconds until it shuts off. In this case, if I switch from 2V to 1V it hangs completely.

On the other hand, if I go the other way up, i.e.: from 2V to 5V,  it behaves correctly. Back to 2V, OK again, but if I try to go to 1V, it hangs again.


What's worse is that it is not the only occurrence. If I switch from different acquisition modes, it hangs up again.

The first occurrence happens always, the second, just sometimes. Very annoying  |O

EDIT:
Ooops, I forgot to tell that:
OS: 8.3
FW: 6.1.37R9
HW: 01.05
FPGA: 2021-11-08

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: WPE on December 24, 2022, 11:19:34 pm
I'm considering a Siglent SDS1204XE with a SDG2042X AWG.  Does it sound better to buy through Amazon or through highly rated Tequipment?   
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 25, 2022, 01:05:30 am
I'm considering a Siglent SDS1204XE with a SDG2042X AWG.  Does it sound better to buy through Amazon or through highly rated Tequipment?
Welcome to the forum.

You could also consider supporting Saelig and get the members 6% discount.
Ask for their discount code here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/equipment-discounts-from-saelig/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/equipment-discounts-from-saelig/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on December 25, 2022, 01:42:00 am
Are Saelig the retail arm of Siglent NA, or a fully separate entity?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mwb1100 on December 25, 2022, 02:04:29 am
Saelig sells equipment from a variety of vendors, including what I'd think is Siglent's main competitor, Rigol. So I don't think they have a relationship with Siglent beyond being an authorized distributor (https://siglentna.com/how-to-buy/).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 25, 2022, 07:02:47 am
Are Saelig the retail arm of Siglent NA, or a fully separate entity?
mwb1000 is quite correct and additionally Siglent NA run their own online shop and also sell through Amazon as vendor Siglent Technologies although only a few of their products are offered via Amazon.
https://siglentna.com/product/sds2104x-plus/ (https://siglentna.com/product/sds2104x-plus/)
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Siglent+Technologies&crid=2CDWWAEPZ6U5J&qid=1671951557&sprefix=siglent+technologies%2Caps%2C267&ref=sr_pg_1 (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Siglent+Technologies&crid=2CDWWAEPZ6U5J&qid=1671951557&sprefix=siglent+technologies%2Caps%2C267&ref=sr_pg_1)

However why anyone would consider sourcing test equipment from any platform not offering support IDK.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: PatrickB on December 25, 2022, 11:49:25 am
My last oscilloscope had display problems and the manufacturer, even in China, did not respond to my emails.  :box:  They knew that this problem could not be solved...
This display problem was not a software problem but a hardware design flaw.

But this oscilloscope broke down and the importer was forced to accept the return to his workshop (free return costs).
I asked for a refund for this device that I had had for 1 year.  :-+
Making the importer listen to reason was not easy, imagine what would have happened if I had bought my oscilloscope from a store that did not offer support.

Now I have another Chinese oscilloscope purchased from an authorized distributor near me.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: WPE on December 25, 2022, 06:01:55 pm
Thank you Tautec - that could be my best option.  I saw both products at SiglentNA/Amazon - but you have to click the "see Siglent Technologies store" tab to find the 'scope.  (I'm partly guessing that I'm still in the SiglentNA store at that point.) 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on December 25, 2022, 06:06:49 pm
My last oscilloscope had display problems and the manufacturer, even in China, did not respond to my emails.  :box:  They knew that this problem could not be solved...
This display problem was not a software problem but a hardware design flaw.

But this oscilloscope broke down and the importer was forced to accept the return to his workshop (free return costs).
I asked for a refund for this device that I had had for 1 year.  :-+
Making the importer listen to reason was not easy, imagine what would have happened if I had bought my oscilloscope from a store that did not offer support.

Now I have another Chinese oscilloscope purchased from an authorized distributor near me.  :)
Name and shame the reseller please.

In France you have 3 authorized resellers all answerable to Siglent Germany.
Did you not buy from them ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: YurkshireLad on December 26, 2022, 03:44:04 pm
I bought a brand new SDS1104X-E - are they supposed to come with the screen protector that you have to peel off? Mine didn't. Just wondering in case I got a returned model.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on December 26, 2022, 04:44:07 pm
I bought a brand new SDS1104X-E - are they supposed to come with the screen protector that you have to peel off? Mine didn't. Just wondering.

No. What protector this real glass surface need in this case. Just no any reason to add it. It is very different case if surface is just naked TFT plastic surface as in some monitors etc.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: YurkshireLad on December 26, 2022, 04:51:35 pm
I bought a brand new SDS1104X-E - are they supposed to come with the screen protector that you have to peel off? Mine didn't. Just wondering.

No. What protector this real glass surface need in this case. Just no any reason to add it. It is very different case if surface is just naked TFT plastic surface as in some monitors etc.

Ok thanks.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: pope on January 03, 2023, 10:22:30 am
I noticed that when the self calibration button is pressed (and you get that tab on the screen that says to press the "single" button) the only option you have is to do the self cal. In other words, it's impossible to cancel the operation (and make the tab disappear) unless you restart the scope.

Can someone confirm please?

My oscope is up to date in terms of firmware and OS.

Thanks
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on January 03, 2023, 10:30:03 am
Without firing up mine I'm sure there's a cancel, try Run/Stop.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: pope on January 03, 2023, 10:33:38 am
Without firing up mine I'm sure there's a cancel, try Run/Stop.

OK, I must be stupid because although I was sure I tried the Run/Stop yesterday, I clearly didn't because it seems to work fine. So, please ignore me....  |O
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on January 04, 2023, 09:25:20 pm
Investigations.
1. Powering from DC might be possible however even ramping voltage to 100V @ 2A wasn't enough to let my SDS1104X-E wake up.
So that's a fail for portability however with the low cost of 12V inverters there are other options:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/114897623156 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/114897623156)

2. Encoders
Only 2 are detented, V/div and s/div of course and all others at first glance appear the same footprint, Trigger level, Hpos, Vpos and the much maligned Multifunction control.
All encoders are branded LJV but with zero further markings that I have spotted.  :-//
Dongguan LJV Industry Investments Co., Ltd., Guangdong, China

They are 2 plus 3 pin types with a further 2 mounting lugs, all with hole centers of 12 x 15 mm and D form 6mm shafts with total height above PCB of 20mm.

As seen in the attached pic only V/div and s/div are metal shaft while the other 4 are plastic shafts of some sort.
Encoder body height is different for the 2 types used (2 detented @ 4.6mm H vs 4 not detented @ 6mm H)

These look much like those used for V/div and s/div which BTW are 20 clicks/rev <checked !
https://www.ecplaza.net/products/11mm-heavy-rotational-torque-rotary-encoder_3039870 (https://www.ecplaza.net/products/11mm-heavy-rotational-torque-rotary-encoder_3039870)

Can we presume the other 4 encoders are also 20 pulses/rev, checked, they are 20 also.
This is a good match for them:
https://www.ecplaza.net/products/12mm-rotary-encoder_3036320 (https://www.ecplaza.net/products/12mm-rotary-encoder_3036320)

Notice one is listed as 11mm and the other 12mm yet from my measurements the pinout seems the same.

While I have it apart please advise best method to check pulses/rev for the non-detented encoders so we can be sure to find the correct type in a detented version. < checked with DMM continuity tester and count # for half one revolution for a 20p/rev result.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: robert.rozee on January 05, 2023, 04:38:44 am
excellent photo and description!    :-+

so there are 2 'metal' (detented) encoders, and 4 'plastic' (detentless) encoders. do you reckon that one could fit the 'metal' (detented) encoders in place of ALL of the plastic ones? checking my own SDS1104X-E scope, there is a distinct difference in the feel of the 'metal' vs 'plastic' encoders that goes beyond the detent. the metal ones feel far more solid and of (dare i say it) better quality.

lets say a customer had a broken encoder, where for some reason the shaft had broken off. could/would Siglent be willing to supply a replacement decoder as a spare part? i'd certainly be happy to pay a very fair price for 4 'metal' decoders.


cheers,
rob   :-)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on January 05, 2023, 04:19:14 pm
Regarding detented encoders and in this very topic:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/1725/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/1725/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: pope on January 09, 2023, 08:55:07 am
Anybody knows what's included in the new firmware update?

Siglent don't seem to care to share this information with their clients  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on January 09, 2023, 09:03:36 am
Anybody knows what's included in the new firmware update?

Siglent don't seem to care to share this information with their clients :)
Only because you are not downloading it and opening the OS Revision History PDF.
It states:
The hardware was updated to version of 09(). The OS was also updated to version of 3 to support this new hardware.
If SDS1xx4X-E hardware has version below 09, you don’t need to update SDS1xx4X-E OS.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: pope on January 09, 2023, 09:15:18 am
Anybody knows what's included in the new firmware update?

Siglent don't seem to care to share this information with their clients :)
Only because you are not downloading it and opening the OS Revision History PDF.
It states:
The hardware was updated to version of 09(). The OS was also updated to version of 3 to support this new hardware.
If SDS1xx4X-E hardware has version below 09, you don’t need to update SDS1xx4X-E OS.


Have you seen the date next to it?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on January 09, 2023, 09:17:02 am
Anybody knows what's included in the new firmware update?

Siglent don't seem to care to share this information with their clients :)
Only because you are not downloading it and opening the OS Revision History PDF.
It states:
The hardware was updated to version of 09(). The OS was also updated to version of 3 to support this new hardware.
If SDS1xx4X-E hardware has version below 09, you don’t need to update SDS1xx4X-E OS.


Have you seen the date next to it?
Are you questioning my eyesight ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: pope on January 09, 2023, 09:20:41 am
Anybody knows what's included in the new firmware update?

Siglent don't seem to care to share this information with their clients :)
Only because you are not downloading it and opening the OS Revision History PDF.
It states:
The hardware was updated to version of 09(). The OS was also updated to version of 3 to support this new hardware.
If SDS1xx4X-E hardware has version below 09, you don’t need to update SDS1xx4X-E OS.


Have you seen the date next to it?
Are you questioning my eyesight ?

I don't need to.

The date is "2022/5/27" and the update was uploaded a couple of days ago.

BTW, you were the one "attacking" me by assuming I hadn't read the .pdf

You need to chill a bit.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on January 09, 2023, 03:47:58 pm
The date is "2022/5/27" and the update was uploaded a couple of days ago.
Does not surprise me.  That date would represent when the final version of the code for the new hardware was completed.

It may well have taken many months for the new hardware to undergo final testing and to make it into the queue for production.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Neutrion on January 10, 2023, 04:06:35 pm
Do we know what the HW changes are actually? Is there really a new ADC in the new ones? Would be nice to see a teardown and compare the new with the old.
It seems to me that the old version had less offset. At least mine is pretty good compared to what I see in the last posts, but to get the best results I actually turned the quick cal off.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: WPE on January 16, 2023, 05:29:52 pm
MUCH THANKS to those who responded to my questions, and for the many helpful comments and reviews on EEVBLOG > I finally decided on the Siglent SDS1204X-E with the SDG2042X, from Saelig, after looking hard at the SDS2104XP which was $400 off at the time - hard choice. 

As mentioned by others, both arrived without the screen protectors they used to ship with.  The only consequence was a small faint diagonal band on the left side of the 'scope display where the matte finish is worn slightly less matte - barely visible. 

As others expected, I am very pleased with what I received, especially with such a broad spectrum of novel features - even datalogging. 

I've done an abbreviated "Acceptance Test" with everything going well.  My noise, DC offset, and channel skew are within very reasonable limits - grateful for all the blogs so I knew what to expect, and what to look for. 

I enjoyed trying out the FFT - impressed with being able to see the rather complex response of a 5.3 MHz filter for old GE COMM radios (GE MASTR2) using MAX HOLD.  Just like Dave Jone's review - that worked out better using RF SWEEP instead of NOISE from my SDG.  FFT showed me that the square wave harmonics from my SDG2042X stop at 40 MHz - and the HARMONICS function doesn't extend beyond 40 MHz. 

FFT also showed  the SDG2042X has NOISE output all the way to 120 MHz - very glad of that (also saw it on my TinySA). 

I was very pleased with Bode Plot 2 performance - seeing great detail in that same filter - tried it with 50, 200, and 500 points.  AND very pleased that variable automatic gain provides a much larger dynamic range. 

To get a good plot, I had to add a 100k ohm resistor to isolate the end of my x10 probe, which greatly improved things - but for the SDG output I just tied it directly to the (higher Z) filter input with no obvious distortions - all quick and simple.  (I didn't use any 50 ohm terminators - and much of what I measure won't be at 50 ohms.) 

I welcome any comments about proper matching to both input and output of various filters - especially regarding 455 kHz IF transformers, so that I see the actual response without confusing artifacts. 

My main interest for now is sweeping IF's in antique radios with elaborate multistage variable BW IF's.  For adjusting, I might use the old sweep-gen and demodulator routine - then go back to Bode Plot 2 for a closer look.  OR I might just see how fast BP2 can be with fixed gain and 20-50 points.  (I've been stuck lately because I wanted an accurate "as-found" IF plot for these radios before actually changing anything.) 

Other uses are already nudging me - I may need it to analyze unexpected audio distortion in a preamp.  AND 4 channel datalogging has got to be handy for finding intermittents in antique radios!  These new instruments open up a whole new world, and simplify a lot of things. 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Ziemnianin on February 17, 2023, 01:40:15 pm
Thank you Siglent, You build in a feature requests and don't even make note of it..  :-DD

There was a uprising amount of stuff added, its about 3MB extra on the main application alone.

We have all new Bode Plot SCPI commands  :-+

BODE:SW BODE:SWITCH Query / Command
BODE:AWG Query / Command
BODE:STIM BODE:STIMULUS Command
BODE:SWP BODE:SWEEP Command
BODE:SWP:EDIT BODE:SWEEP:EDIT Command
BODE:DUT Command
BODE:OPER BODE:OPERATE Command
BODE:DIS:APM BODE:DISPLAY:APM Command
BODE:DIS:PHA BODE:DISPLAY:PHA Command
BODE:DIS:ASET BODE:DISPLAY:ASET Command
BODE:DIS:CRS BODE:DISPLAY:CRS Command
BODE:DATA Command

Some new probe commands that hint at digital probes
C1:POffs Command / Query   
C1:PDAC Command / Query
C1:PDelta Command / Query                     
C1:PIntc C1:PIntercept Command / Query
C1:PCali C1:ProbeCalibrate Command / Query
C1:PInfo C1:ProbeInfo Command / Query
C1:ProbeSN 
C1:PType C1:ProbeType
C1:PRes C1:ProbeRes
C1:PCap C1:ProbeCap
C1:PBW C1:ProbeBW
C1:PGain C1:ProbeGain

And just way too much new stuff around decoders and triggering for me to dig through tonight, its about 4 pages worth of commands, more or less breaking out every available settings, Good work devs,

I am working on automatically getting bode plot data via LAN to PC with SDX1204X-E and SDG2042X. I already achieved connection to SDS and can send SCPI command in python (like getting screen dump).
I am trying to find Siglent description of SCPI commands necessary to get bode plot in any numeric format via lan. Probably it will also require stopping and starting Run of bode plot (you can't save data to pendrive with SDS if bode plot is in run state).
It seems that EEVblog forum is the only place where you can find any reference to those commands in web and I can't guess how to use them.
The SCPI command 'BODE:SW?' is only one which I can make work, probably the rest of cmd for bode plot lacks of additional arguments/syntax.
Can you please share with me documentation or some example/reference of using bode plot with SCPI commands  ;D ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Ziemnianin on February 24, 2023, 10:45:35 am
Hey, I used some hacks from this forum to automate collecting bode plot data from Siglent, in attachment you can find script in python that uses LAN SCPI command engine vxi11 (free for commercial use) and telnet for communication with instruction how to use it (at bottom of file are some notes about running it). That took me a while as I couldn't find syntax for not documented commands and is a little bit backdoor method. Hope it will help someone, nice forum you have :) .

Works for setup with (and of course I am not responsible for any harm for user or equipment ;D ):
-Windows machine with lan connection to Siglent and python 3.8
-Oscilloscope Siglent 1104X-e (Software version 6.1.37R8, Uboot-os 8.3)
-Generator Siglent 2042X

How to use it:
Setup IP connection on your Siglent
Turn off oscilloscope
Plug pendrive with siglent_device_startup.sh and remount.sh from Paul_GD post (should be empty beside that, otherwise siglent won't like it) https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/msg4292821/#msg4292821 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/unlocking-siglent-sds1104x-e-step-by-step/msg4292821/#msg4292821)
Turn on oscilloscope (it will start telnet server)
Setup your bode plot measurement, script need to have CH1, CH2 and CH3 in use (better read that: https://siglentna.com/application-note/bode-plot-filter-oscilloscope-generator/ (https://siglentna.com/application-note/bode-plot-filter-oscilloscope-generator/) )
Start Run of bode plot
Don't touch your oscilloscope buttons (it uses interface for interaction)
Set IP in script (line 324, SDS_instance = SDS1104X_E("192.168.0.210")
Run script, it should save every bode plot cycle of oscilloscope to file and display oscilloscope screen
Note: if you use low frequencies (~10Hz) you may want to regulate some variables in script (siglent responses have lags in this case)

Thanks for Rerouter priv help and those posts:
Thank you Siglent, You build in a feature requests and don't even make note of it..  :-DD

There was a uprising amount of stuff added, its about 3MB extra on the main application alone.

We have all new Bode Plot SCPI commands  :-+

BODE:SW BODE:SWITCH Query / Command
BODE:AWG Query / Command
BODE:STIM BODE:STIMULUS Command
BODE:SWP BODE:SWEEP Command
BODE:SWP:EDIT BODE:SWEEP:EDIT Command
BODE:DUT Command
BODE:OPER BODE:OPERATE Command
BODE:DIS:APM BODE:DISPLAY:APM Command
BODE:DIS:PHA BODE:DISPLAY:PHA Command
BODE:DIS:ASET BODE:DISPLAY:ASET Command
BODE:DIS:CRS BODE:DISPLAY:CRS Command
BODE:DATA Command

Some new probe commands that hint at digital probes
C1:POffs Command / Query   
C1:PDAC Command / Query
C1:PDelta Command / Query                     
C1:PIntc C1:PIntercept Command / Query
C1:PCali C1:ProbeCalibrate Command / Query
C1:PInfo C1:ProbeInfo Command / Query
C1:ProbeSN 
C1:PType C1:ProbeType
C1:PRes C1:ProbeRes
C1:PCap C1:ProbeCap
C1:PBW C1:ProbeBW
C1:PGain C1:ProbeGain

And just way too much new stuff around decoders and triggering for me to dig through tonight, its about 4 pages worth of commands, more or less breaking out every available settings, Good work devs,

Just a small tip as to how to get root access the easiest on the SDS1104X-E

This works on the latest Uboot 8.3 and 6.1.37R9 firmware

Simply put the two scripts I attached on the root of your USB stick, the scope will automatically open up a root telnet on port 9999 while booting.
When in telnet, you can use the remount.sh script to change the USB from r/o to r/w.

Don't forget to remove the file after playing around, we don't want exposed root shells on the network!

But to cover myself, I of course take no responsibility for any damage that may occur to the user or the scope by using my script.

I hope this can help some people who didn't have success flashing a custom Uboot ^^
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Rerouter on February 24, 2023, 11:28:10 am
It has been so long since I last looked, but happy to see I take up a decent chunk of the patch notes on a firmware version :D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on March 12, 2023, 04:28:17 pm
Anybody knows what's included in the new firmware update?

Siglent don't seem to care to share this information with their clients :)
Only because you are not downloading it and opening the OS Revision History PDF.
It states:
The hardware was updated to version of 09(). The OS was also updated to version of 3 to support this new hardware.
If SDS1xx4X-E hardware has version below 09, you don’t need to update SDS1xx4X-E OS.


And it will be ignored by the scope ?
Before reading this, I've copied the files to an empty 8Gb stick, put it to the scope and let it boot.
But nothing "happens" so I guess, if its not necessary it will be ignored...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mushroom on March 12, 2023, 10:18:59 pm
About OS 3 ?
My scope came with OS3.
Not understanding the crazy OS versioning, I updated the scope with the latest OS/firmware I could find on Siglent website, as soon as I received the parcel (SDS1204X-E as I didn't want to bother with the hack) ; as a result, I downgraded it to OS 2 ! 8.2 means OS 2, 8.3 means OS 3. Everybody on this planet knew it, except me ! Of course, no warnings at install time.

Asked the reseller (welectron), no answer (ask the importer, blah blah). No answer here.

I found an answer on the Siglent USA Youtube channel : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7FY4t__8ws (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7FY4t__8ws)

Scroll down : you'll find a thread with 27 answers. It seems OS 3 is there for some WiFi dongle support very few care about... WiFi hater : slow, flaky, and I'm generating enough EMF myself, no need for more.

Still running OS 2, don't care anymore. Real men use wired Ethernet.
Unless I learn something interesting about OS 3, I won't upgrade (restore...).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on March 12, 2023, 10:51:53 pm
I borrowed the scope from work, just want it up to date. 8)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nikitasius on March 23, 2023, 11:19:56 am
Hi folks, are there are some teardowns from `SDS1204X-E` ?
Are they share the same front?
From Dave's videos (https://youtu.be/Kay4Jk2DHuE?t=565 & https://youtu.be/slBXLf4YKtA?t=1183)

Red is `SDS1202X-E`, green is `SDS1104X-E`. Why SDS1202X-E ? Cause it's used as en example in big (130+ pages) review here.

Also from a review (from eevblog "Siglent SDS1000X-E Bandwidth Discussion.pdf"): "It looks like the 100MHz SDS1104X-E not only uses essentially the same frontend as the 200MHz
models, there is also no physical bandwidth limit fitted.", while regarding the photos they are different.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on March 23, 2023, 01:46:41 pm
The SDS1204X-E is exactly the same machine as the SDS1104X-E.  Exactly the same.  The only difference is the license code (and the sticker over the top of the screen).

You can take an SDS1104X-E, enter the right code, and it becomes an SDS1204X-E.  Many dozens here have done just that.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Deso on March 23, 2023, 02:21:14 pm
This may not be entirely true. SDS1104X-E is currently sold in 2 different HW versions - 01-05 and 09-06, so there will be some differences.
So far I can't find pictures of the newer HW version.
Also mine which is SDS1104X-e with HW 09-06 is showing very strange results with 200Mhz square wave signal (I know it is out of spec) and too much attenuation and I don't think that the frontend is capable of 200Mhz or is limited in the 09-06 version.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Mortymore on March 23, 2023, 02:50:48 pm
Hi folks, are there are some teardowns from `SDS1204X-E` ?
...
Red is `SDS1202X-E`, green is `SDS1104X-E`. ...

SDS1202X-E > 2 channel scope (different from the other 4 channel scopes)
SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E > 4 channel scopes (the same hardware I assume)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on March 23, 2023, 03:35:35 pm
Also mine which is SDS1104X-e with HW 09-06 is showing very strange results with 200Mhz square wave signal (I know it is out of spec) and too much attenuation and I don't think that the frontend is capable of 200Mhz or is limited in the 09-06 version.

Have you upgraded it to 200MHz?  And where are you getting a 200MHz square wave?  If you want to test the front-end capabilites you'll need to use a clean sine wave or perhaps a fast edge at a much lower frequency.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on March 23, 2023, 04:29:09 pm
Also mine which is SDS1104X-e with HW 09-06 is showing very strange results with 200Mhz square wave signal (I know it is out of spec) and too much attenuation and I don't think that the frontend is capable of 200Mhz or is limited in the 09-06 version.
Mine is an 09-06.  I've done the license upgrade to 200MHz and it's within 3dB out past 230MHz as the 1.49 ns rise time will attest.  I believe others have even gotten a bit better.

Maybe you could take a screen shot and show us what you are seeing.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on March 23, 2023, 05:33:30 pm
This may not be entirely true. SDS1104X-E is currently sold in 2 different HW versions - 01-05 and 09-06, so there will be some differences.
So far I can't find pictures of the newer HW version.
Also mine which is SDS1104X-e with HW 09-06 is showing very strange results with 200Mhz square wave signal (I know it is out of spec) and too much attenuation and I don't think that the frontend is capable of 200Mhz or is limited in the 09-06 version.

To look at 200MHz squarewave you need 1GHz + scope... 2GHz even better..

Explanation and reference please...?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nikitasius on March 23, 2023, 10:13:47 pm
Thank you for your answers!
Especially about different HW révisions.

Just a little about the purpose of the scope i'm looking for: to test pocket AB amps i wanna make for fun, check if power is clean also and do some fun with uart. Nothing professional, just a hobby fun.
In Siglent i appreciate features like 4 channels, 1GSa/s per group, pretty fast waveforms/s aaand FFT (which looks good after the reviews i've seen), slow on 1Mpts but it's 1Mpts, so noise is lower and more details. I say again, it's for audio freq & for "excited" AB chips (which could do 20MHz or 30MHz in theory if i screw the schematic).
Also for the other fun cases i've seen that with scope and some math you can check C, L and electronic components (but i have testers also). I wanna enjoy it in my 36.
So my fun budget is 500-600€, and i agree with Dave (from YouTube), that 1k will be overkill for my needs. Also, compared to "same" rigols siglent more sensitive.

Next about hacks: 100MHz is okey for me, i don't need 200MHz, also i don't need 16digit channels (just 4 analog) and don't need generator cause i can make my own (w/ scope) or buy any other brand. But i want 100MHz i'm paying for. So here we speak about the hack and the screenshot from the review.
Why the hek 100MHz have -1dB at 75MHz?.. i can't get in. 200MHz model is cool at 200MHz and you pay for 200MHz, but when you buy 100MHz you don't pay 50MHz scope or 75MHz scope. So if it's pure software crap, well, i will hack that FIR config and enjoy my 100MHz scope.
If the frontend is different and poor, well, i will enjoy nothing and lose factory calibration (seen these comments in topic) which was made for 100MHz scope.

So, did actual SDS1104X-E have poor front (or the other parts) compared to SDS1204X-E or it's just software "issues"? I've seen siglent folks in thread also, if they have no NDA, it could be good to know simple "no bruh, it's just software" or "yeah, don't even try to get real numbers with latest 1104 models at 80-90MHz".

Before i was targeting MSO5074, hacked, sure, to get 100MHz, but 8Gsa/s it's total overkill for me (again i'm agree w/ Dave).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on March 24, 2023, 12:30:55 am
Thank you for your answers!
Especially about different HW révisions.

Just a little about the purpose of the scope i'm looking for: to test pocket AB amps i wanna make for fun, check if power is clean also and do some fun with uart. Nothing professional, just a hobby fun.
In Siglent i appreciate features like 4 channels, 1GSa/s per group, pretty fast waveforms/s aaand FFT (which looks good after the reviews i've seen), slow on 1Mpts but it's 1Mpts, so noise is lower and more details. I say again, it's for audio freq & for "excited" AB chips (which could do 20MHz or 30MHz in theory if i screw the schematic).
Also for the other fun cases i've seen that with scope and some math you can check C, L and electronic components (but i have testers also). I wanna enjoy it in my 36.
So my fun budget is 500-600€, and i agree with Dave (from YouTube), that 1k will be overkill for my needs. Also, compared to "same" rigols siglent more sensitive.

Next about hacks: 100MHz is okey for me, i don't need 200MHz, also i don't need 16digit channels (just 4 analog) and don't need generator cause i can make my own (w/ scope) or buy any other brand. But i want 100MHz i'm paying for. So here we speak about the hack and the screenshot from the review.
Why the hek 100MHz have -1dB at 75MHz?.. i can't get in. 200MHz model is cool at 200MHz and you pay for 200MHz, but when you buy 100MHz you don't pay 50MHz scope or 75MHz scope. So if it's pure software crap, well, i will hack that FIR config and enjoy my 100MHz scope.
If the frontend is different and poor, well, i will enjoy nothing and lose factory calibration (seen these comments in topic) which was made for 100MHz scope.

So, did actual SDS1104X-E have poor front (or the other parts) compared to SDS1204X-E or it's just software "issues"? I've seen siglent folks in thread also, if they have no NDA, it could be good to know simple "no bruh, it's just software" or "yeah, don't even try to get real numbers with latest 1104 models at 80-90MHz".

Before i was targeting MSO5074, hacked, sure, to get 100MHz, but 8Gsa/s it's total overkill for me (again i'm agree w/ Dave).

You seem to be beginner in this, so here is a short explanation.
First you make conclusions based on several wrong information..

100 MHz scope means 100 MHz point is actually -3dB down...
That is industry standard way of specifying scope BW. True for any scope on planet.
Why so? Long story, already explained elsewhere many times..

Second, by "opening" scope to full bandwidth you don't "loose calibration". These scopes are fully 200MHz designs.
Different PCB revisions are simply that. Different revisions, that happens over product lifecycle..

For what you say is your intended use it should serve you very well..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on March 24, 2023, 03:47:28 am
Why the hek 100MHz have -1dB at 75MHz?.. i can't get in.

-1dB is nothing but @ 75MHz that is very unusual for this scope.

Once again, can you provide some screen shots of what you are seeing?  We are blind right now.


Oh, BTW, the upgrade to 200MHz can be had for free .. just maybe 15-20 minutes of your time.  References to how are in this thread.  Read back ...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 24, 2023, 09:46:05 am
Traditionally, oscilloscope bandwidth is specified for 3 dB amplitude drop. For the usual Gaussian response in lower bandwidth scopes, the amplitude drop would be about 2 dB at 75 MHz for a 100 MHz scope. In the light of this, the Siglent SDS1104X-E is much better with only 1 dB drop at that frequency.

The reason is of course that the artificial bandwidth limit is accomplished by a FIR-filter that is not Gaussian. Those who ask why we don't choose a filter characteristics that has even less (ideally zero) drop up to the corner frequency should learn about the requirements for an oscilloscope frontend, especially group delay.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: gf on March 24, 2023, 02:17:00 pm
Quote
The reason is of course that the artificial bandwidth limit is accomplished by a FIR-filter that is not Gaussian. Those who ask why we don't choose a filter characteristics that has even less (ideally zero) drop up to the corner frequency should learn about the requirements for an oscilloscope frontend, ...

A "flat-top" frequency response comes at the cost of more overshoot in the step response. It's a trade-off.

An ideal Gaussian filter has the nice property of having no overshoot in the step response while minimizing the rise and fall time.

Quote
...especially group delay.

With a (symmetrical) FIR filter, frequency-dependent group delay is actually not an issue -- any symmetrical FIR filter is linear phase.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on March 24, 2023, 08:28:57 pm
A "flat-top" frequency response comes at the cost of more overshoot in the step response. It's a trade-off.

An ideal Gaussian filter has the nice property of having no overshoot in the step response while minimizing the rise and fall time.
Right. And knowing all this, how much overshoot do you think is acceptable so that we still can have a decent signal fidelity? It is - or at least should be - the goal for every serious oscilloscope to show the actual signal at its input, not the imperfections of its frontend.

There are many folks who complain loudly as soon as the overshoot with a clean squarewave input becomes even visible, let alone if it exceeds 3 %. And rightfully so.

Yes, there are situations where even a good (usually wideband) frontend might exceed 10 %, but these should be rare and limited to very unusual input signals.


With a (symmetrical) FIR filter, frequency-dependent group delay is actually not an issue -- any symmetrical FIR filter is linear phase.
Correct. The frontend has a certain frequency response itself, which we can see for the highest bandwidth model, such as the SDS1204X-E. Even the 200 MHz model will have more than 0 dB drop at 75 MHz, even with a perfectly flat FIR filter behind. Furthermore, there is no intention to have a vastly different frequency response characteristics for the lower bandwidth models, even when the bandwidth is limited by an FIR filter.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nikitasius on March 24, 2023, 09:02:51 pm
2N3055 yep, pretty new. Never had a scope before. Nice to know about -3dB certs 👍

BillyO which screenshots ? Here is the tread https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/)

Performa01 & gf thanks for useful info!



Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Deso on March 24, 2023, 09:11:01 pm
Have you upgraded it to 200MHz?  And where are you getting a 200MHz square wave?  If you want to test the front-end capabilites you'll need to use a clean sine wave or perhaps a fast edge at a much lower frequency.
It is not upgraded.
I don't have a sine source (yet :D) so I used my NanoVNA v2 (teardown here (http://www.kerrywong.com/2022/01/07/teardown-of-a-nanovna-f-v2-vector-network-analyzer/)), which can be used as signal generator. It produces square wave signals. At 200Mhz I'm observing too much decreasing of the signal level and strange behavior of the offset while switching the vertical resolution.

Maybe you could take a screen shot and show us what you are seeing.
I'll provide more information when I do more and proper measurements.

To look at 200MHz squarewave you need 1GHz + scope... 2GHz even better..

Explanation and reference please...?
I was trying to find the limits of my new toy and noticed some strange behavior. But as I said - will provide more info when I'm sure in the results.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on March 24, 2023, 09:45:54 pm
BillyO which screenshots ? Here is the tread https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/)
Sorry, I thought you were actually seeing all this poor performance.  But I guess you are just imagining it?

As I said above, with the 200MHz enabled, you will not have any issues with bandwidth.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nikitasius on March 24, 2023, 10:26:47 pm
BillyO which screenshots ? Here is the tread https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/)
Sorry, I thought you were actually seeing all this poor performance.  But I guess you are just imagining it?

As I said above, with the 200MHz enabled, you will not have any issues with bandwidth.

Yep and my imagination could generate the pdfs and the screenshots. So who knows what could i imagine while answering you.

100MHz->200MHz not a problem. Good to know that it's a software issue and not a hardware (while visually thats different a bit)
Upd: 1104xe and 1202xe fronts at least.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tony359 on March 29, 2023, 08:30:33 pm
Hi all

I don't seem to be able to update my 1104 to OS3. I tried with several USB sticks but nothing happens. OS is still listed at 8.2. Yes, I know there is probably little gain in going to 3 but that's another story!

Can anybody help me please?
Thanks
Tony
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 29, 2023, 08:43:42 pm
Hi all

I don't seem to be able to update my 1104 to OS3. I tried with several USB sticks but nothing happens. OS is still listed at 8.2. Yes, I know there is probably little gain in going to 3 but that's another story!

Can anybody help me please?
Thanks
Tony
Check attached PDF to see if you actually need to install OS V3.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tony359 on March 30, 2023, 11:00:28 am
Yeah, that was my comment about the little gain in updating. Still, why is it not updating?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on March 30, 2023, 11:06:25 am
Yeah, that was my comment about the little gain in updating. Still, why is it not updating?
I had the same with my prerelease SDS1104X-E and OS V2 yet the features the new FW and OS supported did work.
Don't lose sleep about it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tony359 on March 30, 2023, 11:09:56 am
Not losing sleep and not expecting anything! :) I'm just curious and I'd like to know why it is not updating! :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on March 30, 2023, 12:08:52 pm
Yeah, that was my comment about the little gain in updating. Still, why is it not updating?

Because you didn't check what hardware revision you have?

Is your scope System Status showing Hardware revision 09-xx ??

If number is less than 09 than you don't have new hardware revision and that update is not for you. That firmware has same functionality as previous one, but has added support for new MB in OS part.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tony359 on March 30, 2023, 03:38:57 pm
Is your scope System Status showing Hardware revision 09-xx ??

It is
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: sulzer on April 01, 2023, 12:07:52 pm
A little help for the newbie that I am.
I can't switch to OS3, here is my config:
Software Version : 6.1.37R9
Uboot-OS Version : 8.2
FPGA Version : 1.4
What am I not understanding?
What can I upgrade?
Thanks for your help
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tony359 on April 01, 2023, 10:25:31 pm
it looks like I am not the only one then :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on April 01, 2023, 11:40:12 pm
A little help for the newbie that I am.
I can't switch to OS3, here is my config:
Software Version : 6.1.37R9
Uboot-OS Version : 8.2
FPGA Version : 1.4
What am I not understanding?
What can I upgrade?
Thanks for your help
What is your hardware version?  I'm pretty sure OS3 is only for 09-06.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on April 02, 2023, 08:15:55 am
Nope!  I've got an SDS1104X-E  with Hardware Version 01-05 and OS 8.3 from factory:

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Neutrion on April 03, 2023, 02:14:08 pm
Did anyone measured noise at 500 uV/div full BW 50ns/Div with the newer HW versions?
Just because originally what Performa01 measured it seemed significantly below spec at 63uV RMS (without the DC so in this case std dev) and I got similar values on mine.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nikitasius on April 04, 2023, 07:55:29 pm
Hi folks, got today by SDS1104XE   ;D
It was calibrated in december 2022.

1 probe from 4 have contact issues. I contacted support to ask a newone (w/ a video).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: patrik96 on April 05, 2023, 07:46:50 am
Hi, may someone able to explain me,
I have SDS1104x-E and there is no AutoSetup menu only the Autosetup button,
If activated the Autosetup it adjust the scope onece and after no adjustment but the AUTOSETUP visible in the left bottom corner on the screen.
So if changing the Amplitude or frequency the scope not follow that. (is it normal? my previous OWON follow the signal)
Thansk
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on April 05, 2023, 08:02:25 am
Hi, may someone able to explain me,
I have SDS1104x-E and there is no AutoSetup menu only the Autosetup button,
If activated the Autosetup it adjust the scope onece and after no adjustment but the AUTOSETUP visible in the left bottom corner on the screen.
So if changing the Amplitude or frequency the scope not follow that. (is it normal? my previous OWON follow the signal)
Thansk
Correct.
These DSO's are designed with the mind that the operator must be in charge of the scope not the other way around.
Either press Auto Setup again or learn how to master the use of the scope, it's not really difficult but instead very rewarding.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on April 05, 2023, 05:39:20 pm
Hi folks, got today by SDS1104XE   ;D
It was calibrated in december 2022.

1 probe from 4 have contact issues. I contacted support to ask a newone (w/ a video).

I've got the same scope, same HW/OS versions, half a year earlier than yours and exactly the same issue: one of the probes is having issues with the 1x/10x switch  ::)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on April 05, 2023, 07:39:13 pm
Hi folks, got today by SDS1104XE   ;D
It was calibrated in december 2022.

1 probe from 4 have contact issues. I contacted support to ask a newone (w/ a video).

I've got the same scope, same HW/OS versions, half a year earlier than yours and exactly the same issue: one of the probes is having issues with the 1x/10x switch  ::)
They are warrantied for 1 year so claim a warranty replacement from your supplier.
It often is possible to capture a screenshot of the fault to support your claim.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tony359 on April 07, 2023, 10:08:35 am
If activated the Autosetup it adjust the scope onece and after no adjustment but the AUTOSETUP visible in the left bottom corner on the screen.
So if changing the Amplitude or frequency the scope not follow that. (is it normal? my previous OWON follow the signal)
Thansk
Correct.
These DSO's are designed with the mind that the operator must be in charge of the scope not the other way around.
Either press Auto Setup again or learn how to master the use of the scope, it's not really difficult but instead very rewarding.

I checked on mine and it's not "correct" at least the way I understand.

Yes, after the auto-setup you only have one "go back" button at the bottom but
- Amplitude and frequency do work on mine
- You can press any other button and it will retain the auto-setup settings but take you back to the normal screen.

Are you saying that after running an auto-setup your amplitude and frequency knobs don't work?

Nope!  I've got an SDS1104X-E  with Hardware Version 01-05 and OS 8.3 from factory:

Of course, it's pretty clear from the instructions that OSV3 is "not needed", it doesn't mean it won't work.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on April 07, 2023, 10:22:36 am
If activated the Autosetup it adjust the scope onece and after no adjustment but the AUTOSETUP visible in the left bottom corner on the screen.
So if changing the Amplitude or frequency the scope not follow that. (is it normal? my previous OWON follow the signal)
Thansk
Correct.
These DSO's are designed with the mind that the operator must be in charge of the scope not the other way around.
Either press Auto Setup again or learn how to master the use of the scope, it's not really difficult but instead very rewarding.

I checked on mine and it's not "correct" at least the way I understand.

Yes, after the auto-setup you only have one "go back" button at the bottom but
- Amplitude and frequency do work on mine
- You can press any other button and it will retain the auto-setup settings but take you back to the normal screen.

Are you saying that after running an auto-setup your amplitude and frequency knobs don't work?
Sorry, we're not talking the same thing.
Truth be I rarely ever use Autoset instead much preferring to be in charge of the scope.
When I do use it and normally to show a customer a shortcut to getting some sensible display on the screen but then take over the controls to drive and be in charge of the scope.

For scope newbies Autoset is great however I don't recommend you let it capture you too as the human brain is more powerful than the machine.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tony359 on April 07, 2023, 10:45:26 am
I never use auto-setup either but the OP was asking about it so I turned on mine and checked.

Replying that that's the intended operations of the scope because they are"designed with the mind that the operator must be in charge of the scope" does not really sound as a useful answer IMHO.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 807 on April 08, 2023, 02:03:11 pm
If activated the Autosetup it adjust the scope onece and after no adjustment but the AUTOSETUP visible in the left bottom corner on the screen.
So if changing the Amplitude or frequency the scope not follow that. (is it normal? my previous OWON follow the signal)
Thansk
Correct.
These DSO's are designed with the mind that the operator must be in charge of the scope not the other way around.
Either press Auto Setup again or learn how to master the use of the scope, it's not really difficult but instead very rewarding.

I checked on mine and it's not "correct" at least the way I understand.

Yes, after the auto-setup you only have one "go back" button at the bottom but
- Amplitude and frequency do work on mine
- You can press any other button and it will retain the auto-setup settings but take you back to the normal screen.

Are you saying that after running an auto-setup your amplitude and frequency knobs don't work?

I misunderstood patrik96 post at first, but then realised that what he meant was that once the Autosetup button is pressed, it only acts on the current signal input. If you adjust the input signal or alter the timebase or amplitude controls on the scope, it will not adjust for the best display, despite "AUTOSET" being displayed on the screen.

It seems like his previous Owon scope tracked the signal for best display while the Autosetup was still activated, without having to press the button again.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on April 08, 2023, 08:14:36 pm
If activated the Autosetup it adjust the scope onece and after no adjustment but the AUTOSETUP visible in the left bottom corner on the screen.
So if changing the Amplitude or frequency the scope not follow that. (is it normal? my previous OWON follow the signal)
Thansk
Correct.
These DSO's are designed with the mind that the operator must be in charge of the scope not the other way around.
Either press Auto Setup again or learn how to master the use of the scope, it's not really difficult but instead very rewarding.

I checked on mine and it's not "correct" at least the way I understand.

Yes, after the auto-setup you only have one "go back" button at the bottom but
- Amplitude and frequency do work on mine
- You can press any other button and it will retain the auto-setup settings but take you back to the normal screen.

Are you saying that after running an auto-setup your amplitude and frequency knobs don't work?

I misunderstood patrik96 post at first, but then realised that what he meant was that once the Autosetup button is pressed, it only acts on the current signal input. If you adjust the input signal or alter the timebase or amplitude controls on the scope, it will not adjust for the best display, despite "AUTOSET" being displayed on the screen.

It seems like his previous Owon scope tracked the signal for best display while the Autosetup was still activated, without having to press the button again.
Yes, that's exactly what I took from it too but why would designers have the scope devote resources from just being a scope ? Maybe his meaning was not clear.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tony359 on April 08, 2023, 09:37:36 pm
Indeed the OWON has this interesting feature called "autoscale", which is separate from the autoset.

https://youtu.be/Wn-WZlTMTkc?t=173

I guess it could be useful for some specific signals. It actually looks nicely implemented on that scope.
Would I use it? Maybe, on some occasions I wished my scope didn't constantly require adjustments when changing signals. One scenario I'm thinking about is when I cannot physically reach out to the scope because both my hands are holding probes/boards/wires. Most of the time I would like to be in control of course.
It is useful? In some cases, why not.
Does it work with everything? I guess not, a random digital signal would probably confuse the algorithm.

What I have to disagree with is the "it's always been like that so it's ok" mentality, sorry.

So to answer Patrik96, the answer is NO, the Siglent does not have that feature. To be fair, I believe most of the scopes on the market don't have that, so kudos to Owon :) )
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 807 on April 08, 2023, 11:14:23 pm
...I guess it could be useful for some specific signals. It actually looks nicely implemented on that scope.
Would I use it? Maybe, on some occasions I wished my scope didn't constantly require adjustments when changing signals. One scenario I'm thinking about is when I cannot physically reach out to the scope because both my hands are holding probes/boards/wires...

Yep. Been in that situation many times myself.

Not that long ago I had a board with multiple momentary push switches. I was trying to monitor the pins on an IC while activating various switches. Nowhere to hook the scope probe onto, so could have done with either 3 hands or an autoranging scope to keep the various waveforms on screen.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Fungus on April 08, 2023, 11:33:00 pm
Indeed the OWON has this interesting feature called "autoscale", which is separate from the autoset.

https://youtu.be/Wn-WZlTMTkc?t=173

I guess it could be useful for some specific signals. It actually looks nicely implemented on that scope.
Would I use it? Maybe, on some occasions I wished my scope didn't constantly require adjustments when changing signals.

Micsigs have it. My $35 mini-scope has it. They both work really well when you're poking around without knowing what to expect.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nikitasius on April 11, 2023, 09:07:00 pm
Hi folks, got today by SDS1104XE   ;D
It was calibrated in december 2022.

1 probe from 4 have contact issues. I contacted support to ask a newone (w/ a video).

I've got the same scope, same HW/OS versions, half a year earlier than yours and exactly the same issue: one of the probes is having issues with the 1x/10x switch  ::)
They are warrantied for 1 year so claim a warranty replacement from your supplier.
It often is possible to capture a screenshot of the fault to support your claim.

i made a video and shared it :)

upd: you single touch the cable and see trash on the screen. On 1-2-3-4 channels no matter where.
here is a video, 2 probes (good yellow) and no-label cause doesn't work. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nDdjzDeuri6OztLnyysLr8ISGFqp_2tj/view?usp=sharing

So i asked them to put new probe in my next delivery they will send me (i paid an AWG also but they will be deliver it in beg of may only :/ ).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mjj on April 12, 2023, 06:22:13 am
New V6.1.37R10 firmware posted dated 4th March 2023:

https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mjj on April 12, 2023, 06:25:06 am
Oops, I mean posted 3rd April 2023…
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 807 on April 12, 2023, 10:31:00 am
New V6.1.37R10 firmware posted dated 4th March 2023:

https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/)

Wonder what this firmware does? It's not included in the release notes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 807 on April 12, 2023, 10:37:21 am
It has been added to the siglentna site release notes though...

2023/3/27  6.1.37R10  1.  Optimized VGA configuration
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Neutrion on April 12, 2023, 11:40:54 am
It's the amplifier not the display I suppose, but still, is there any chance that Siglent start to optimize the ERES feature? Performa01 mentioned in his test that something in the display interface could be optimized, so I wonder whether we could have maybe a better math trace on a lower bandwith or some similar improvement to really get some extra bits. Maybe with fast changing gain levels or something? Not sure how could that be realized, but sometimes it could be really useful. And also the rival Rigol could not go anywhere near to it because it's much lower quality frontend. :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: inzekt on April 16, 2023, 11:03:13 am
Hi, I'm facing a few problems with the 1000X–E I2C decoding capabilities. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but when monitoring the SCL and SDA channels, I only get partial data segments. I'm watching I2C communication between an Arduino UNO R3 and an I2C LCD on the address 0x27. The trigger I use is for Serial / I2C 2.5V thresholds on both channels and triggering on the 7bit data type with an explicit address of 0x27 and Write bit.

The Arduino refreshes the screen in every 1s, cycling through data, and the scope triggers in every second as intended. It shows the right amount of messages, but the data payload does not seem to be alright. If I use Hex type outputs, it only shows one byte like 0x09, the ASCII corresponds to it as well, but the data does not seem to match the display itself.

[attach=1]
[attach=3]

One other issue is with the triggering. Even if I trigger at the 0x27 address, sometimes, with bigger sample rates, I get all kinds of data and it does not use the triggers. Also attached a picture of this state, where it clearly shows an address 0x48, what is clearly should be out of scope.

[attach=2]

What am I doing wrong? Is it a limitation/bug with the scope?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on April 16, 2023, 07:06:22 pm
Hi, I'm facing a few problems with the 1000X–E I2C decoding capabilities. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but when monitoring the SCL and SDA channels, I only get partial data segments. I'm watching I2C communication between an Arduino UNO R3 and an I2C LCD on the address 0x27. The trigger I use is for Serial / I2C 2.5V thresholds on both channels and triggering on the 7bit data type with an explicit address of 0x27 and Write bit.

The Arduino refreshes the screen in every 1s, cycling through data, and the scope triggers in every second as intended. It shows the right amount of messages, but the data payload does not seem to be alright. If I use Hex type outputs, it only shows one byte like 0x09, the ASCII corresponds to it as well, but the data does not seem to match the display itself.

(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

One other issue is with the triggering. Even if I trigger at the 0x27 address, sometimes, with bigger sample rates, I get all kinds of data and it does not use the triggers. Also attached a picture of this state, where it clearly shows an address 0x48, what is clearly should be out of scope.

(Attachment Link)

What am I doing wrong? Is it a limitation/bug with the scope?
Welcome to the forum.

IMO it's high time you learnt how to take screenshots to USB using the blue Print button and normally we would have a menu showing that tells us something about scope settings, not a channel menu as we can see all we need in the channel tab.

You might get a few tips from another recent thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/sds1104x-e-review-decode-section/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/sds1104x-e-review-decode-section/)

If later today I get time I'll try and replicate your 0x27 triggering on a STB-3 Siglent test board.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: inzekt on April 16, 2023, 07:40:04 pm
Welcome to the forum.

IMO it's high time you learnt how to take screenshots to USB using the blue Print button and normally we would have a menu showing that tells us something about scope settings, not a channel menu as we can see all we need in the channel tab.

You might get a few tips from another recent thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/sds1104x-e-review-decode-section/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/sds1104x-e-review-decode-section/)

If later today I get time I'll try and replicate your 0x27 triggering on a STB-3 Siglent test board.
Hi, thanks, sorry, I took a few screen grabs from the web interface.

There is a good state, and there is a false trigger also. You can see the trigger menu also on the bottom. I will run through the decode thread, maybe there is some evident error on my side.



Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on April 16, 2023, 07:48:57 pm
Hi, thanks, sorry, I took a few screen grabs from the web interface.

There is a good state, and there is a false trigger also. You can see the trigger menu also on the bottom. I will run through the decode thread, maybe there is some evident error on my side.
First thing noticed is trigger position is off screen to the left. Pres the H Pos encoder to return it to 0s, the middle of the display and then set it left again but keeping it on the display.

Oh and about that, P4 in Utility has a setting for Ref position, set Hor to fixed which will fix the H Pos in one place regardless of timebase setting.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: inzekt on April 16, 2023, 07:58:43 pm

First thing noticed is trigger position is off screen to the left. Pres the H Pos encoder to return it to 0s, the middle of the display and then set it left again but keeping it on the display.

Oh and about that, P4 in Utility has a setting for Ref position, set Hor to fixed which will fix the H Pos in one place regardless of timebase setting.

Yeah, I definitely played with the Horizontal position in the utilities, and also the horizontal trigger position, forgot to zero it back. Did revert the change in the utilities and moved around the trigger also a bit, but now, I'm constantly getting the 0x48 address.

If I go down to around 2.8M sample points, it triggers well. Also attached that

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: inzekt on April 17, 2023, 08:57:40 pm
I just put hours into testing out the decoding feature. Went back to basics to eliminate, if my previous code had any issue and just wrote an simple one, what counts to 999 and prints it on the LCD in every 500ms. In addition to that, it writes to a fictive address 0x1E two times. First 5 bytes, then 1 byte. So in every half second, there should be a three writes, one with an integer to the 0x27 address, and two to the non working 0x1E.

The code works, the display refreshes, and I can even see that there is communication towards 0x1E also on the scope.

But, even if I only trigger on the 0x27 address, it gives me the 0x1E every time, and the communication to the LCD is gibberish on the scope too.

It should be multi-byte transmissions, with just numbers in it, but it is always showing the same one byte: 9, =, ], Y and a few other characters, but it isn't consistent and can't get it work to show the real data with different horizontal scales, sampling points, trigger voltage thresholds, etc.

The 0x1E data is empty, even if it should contain 5+1 bytes.

Not to mention the triggering issue, what is a huge one, if there is a lot of chatter to other addresses as well, like my previous code. It's just not usable to show data in a predictable way.

I tried using different Arduino boards, different wiring, pull–up resistors with multiple values (1k, ~5k, 10k), tried different voltages as an input, or just USB, it's all the same.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on April 17, 2023, 10:44:05 pm
I don't know if it helps, but I found some old review content regarding serial decode, also including I2C.

Browsing my old data, I realised that I've never published the serial decode tests. Now even though they are most likely a little outdated by now, I still though I'd add them to the existing content (SDS1104X-E Review 2_174-201.pdf):

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371783/#msg1371783 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371783/#msg1371783)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Neutrion on April 18, 2023, 02:29:00 pm
Performa01:
Did Siglent otimized the ERES in the meantime? Or are they planning to? You mentioned in your review that it is a low priority task but it would still be a great thing to get somehow some more bits. Or whatever was possible to optimize.
If you would happen to have some spare time, to explain what would be possible actually, it would be great to know!  ::)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: inzekt on April 18, 2023, 02:54:53 pm
I don't know if it helps, but I found some old review content regarding serial decode, also including I2C.

Browsing my old data, I realised that I've never published the serial decode tests. Now even though they are most likely a little outdated by now, I still though I'd add them to the existing content (SDS1104X-E Review 2_174-201.pdf):

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371783/#msg1371783 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371783/#msg1371783)

Thank you very much, it is a great overview. I noticed in your I2C section, the last two screenshots (showing the triggers), it also included non–triggered events in the list view. Even if you were triggering on the address of 0x47, it also shows 0x53 also, and with the EEPROM Data1 trigger with 0x94, it also shows another message not matching that. Why is that?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on April 18, 2023, 03:42:06 pm
I don't know if it helps, but I found some old review content regarding serial decode, also including I2C.

Browsing my old data, I realised that I've never published the serial decode tests. Now even though they are most likely a little outdated by now, I still though I'd add them to the existing content (SDS1104X-E Review 2_174-201.pdf):

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371783/#msg1371783 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371783/#msg1371783)

Thank you very much, it is a great overview. I noticed in your I2C section, the last two screenshots (showing the triggers), it also included non–triggered events in the list view. Even if you were triggering on the address of 0x47, it also shows 0x53 also, and with the EEPROM Data1 trigger with 0x94, it also shows another message not matching that. Why is that?

Trigger takes care of when and where the capture will start. If you capture 10 (or 50) messages, it will decode all of them.. But it will start on the one trigger was set for...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: inzekt on April 18, 2023, 03:54:59 pm
I don't know if it helps, but I found some old review content regarding serial decode, also including I2C.

Browsing my old data, I realised that I've never published the serial decode tests. Now even though they are most likely a little outdated by now, I still though I'd add them to the existing content (SDS1104X-E Review 2_174-201.pdf):

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371783/#msg1371783 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371783/#msg1371783)

Thank you very much, it is a great overview. I noticed in your I2C section, the last two screenshots (showing the triggers), it also included non–triggered events in the list view. Even if you were triggering on the address of 0x47, it also shows 0x53 also, and with the EEPROM Data1 trigger with 0x94, it also shows another message not matching that. Why is that?

Trigger takes care of when and where the capture will start. If you capture 10 (or 50) messages, it will decode all of them.. But it will start on the one trigger was set for...

Ohh, that makes sense, thanks!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on April 18, 2023, 04:10:06 pm
Performa01:
Did Siglent otimized the ERES in the meantime? Or are they planning to? You mentioned in your review that it is a low priority task but it would still be a great thing to get somehow some more bits. Or whatever was possible to optimize.
If you would happen to have some spare time, to explain what would be possible actually, it would be great to know!  ::)
They did: the first DSO with a 16-bit display interface was the SDS2000X Plus, so it could take advantage not only on the Avg. and ERES functions, but also its 10-bit acquisition mode.

It's been a long time that I last did anything with an SDS1000X-E, but I'm afraid these cheap entry level machines did not get that update. Maybe it would require too many resources - after all it's quite some effort to widen the data path all the way from sample memory to the display from 8 to 16 bits...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Neutrion on April 19, 2023, 01:56:17 pm
Performa01:
Did Siglent otimized the ERES in the meantime? Or are they planning to? You mentioned in your review that it is a low priority task but it would still be a great thing to get somehow some more bits. Or whatever was possible to optimize.
If you would happen to have some spare time, to explain what would be possible actually, it would be great to know!  ::)
They did: the first DSO with a 16-bit display interface was the SDS2000X Plus, so it could take advantage not only on the Avg. and ERES functions, but also its 10-bit acquisition mode.

It's been a long time that I last did anything with an SDS1000X-E, but I'm afraid these cheap entry level machines did not get that update. Maybe it would require too many resources - after all it's quite some effort to widen the data path all the way from sample memory to the display from 8 to 16 bits...
But would that be possible with the current hardware with the x-e scopes? Because when you mentioned the possible optimization, I suppose you didn't mean any HW modification.
I know that there are now the HD scopes aviable, but in the cheap segment that limited 1-2 extra bit would still be world beater, and way more useful because of the low noise frontend than what other scopes could do with similar processors. (And the 1000 HD series have such a low sample rate, that I would not consider it being a full step up in every aspect from the x-e's.)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on April 19, 2023, 02:26:57 pm
Performa01:
Did Siglent otimized the ERES in the meantime? Or are they planning to? You mentioned in your review that it is a low priority task but it would still be a great thing to get somehow some more bits. Or whatever was possible to optimize.
If you would happen to have some spare time, to explain what would be possible actually, it would be great to know!  ::)
They did: the first DSO with a 16-bit display interface was the SDS2000X Plus, so it could take advantage not only on the Avg. and ERES functions, but also its 10-bit acquisition mode.

It's been a long time that I last did anything with an SDS1000X-E, but I'm afraid these cheap entry level machines did not get that update. Maybe it would require too many resources - after all it's quite some effort to widen the data path all the way from sample memory to the display from 8 to 16 bits...
But would that be possible with the current hardware with the x-e scopes? Because when you mentioned the possible optimization, I suppose you didn't mean any HW modification.
I know that there are now the HD scopes aviable, but in the cheap segment that limited 1-2 extra bit would still be world beater, and way more useful because of the low noise frontend than what other scopes could do with similar processors. (And the 1000 HD series have such a low sample rate, that I would not consider it being a full step up in every aspect from the x-e's.)

When he said "resources" would not be enough he didn't mean human effort at manufacturer, but capabilities of hardware of the scope....
As in: not enough memory, CPU, FGA fabric etc....

And what you mean by "did Siglent optimize ERES ?" question. In what way do you mean that?



Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on April 19, 2023, 04:00:17 pm
Performa01:
Did Siglent otimized the ERES in the meantime? Or are they planning to? You mentioned in your review that it is a low priority task but it would still be a great thing to get somehow some more bits. Or whatever was possible to optimize.
If you would happen to have some spare time, to explain what would be possible actually, it would be great to know!  ::)
They did: the first DSO with a 16-bit display interface was the SDS2000X Plus, so it could take advantage not only on the Avg. and ERES functions, but also its 10-bit acquisition mode.

It's been a long time that I last did anything with an SDS1000X-E, but I'm afraid these cheap entry level machines did not get that update. Maybe it would require too many resources - after all it's quite some effort to widen the data path all the way from sample memory to the display from 8 to 16 bits...
But would that be possible with the current hardware with the x-e scopes? Because when you mentioned the possible optimization, I suppose you didn't mean any HW modification.
I know that there are now the HD scopes aviable, but in the cheap segment that limited 1-2 extra bit would still be world beater, and way more useful because of the low noise frontend than what other scopes could do with similar processors. (And the 1000 HD series have such a low sample rate, that I would not consider it being a full step up in every aspect from the x-e's.)
I do not know it particularly for the SDS1000X-E series. But from my tests, I can tell that the HW-resources are limited. Originally, even XY-mode was done in software - only later Siglent have managed to cram this functionality into the FPGA, speedint it up substantially but giving up on supporting channels 3 and 4 for XY at the same time.

Siglent often let advanced features (like Bode Plot II)  trickle down to the entry level models, or even implemented new features (like the data recorder) - as long as it was possible, i.e. sufficient HW resources. The fact that we did not get it up to now is indicative that the SDS1000X-E HW isn't up for the task to handle 16-bit data throughout.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Neutrion on April 19, 2023, 05:07:00 pm

When he said "resources" would not be enough he didn't mean human effort at manufacturer, but capabilities of hardware of the scope....
As in: not enough memory, CPU, FGA fabric etc....

And what you mean by "did Siglent optimize ERES ?" question. In what way do you mean that?

In his review at the eres section at the end Performa01 wrote this:
"Beware that for the time being, Eres mode provides no true resolution enhancement. This is mainly
because of the display interface which is still limited to 8 bits. Siglent have promised to change this at
some point in the future, but this is treated as a low priority task, so it may take a while."

So I supposed it is possible to do something here with the current HW.


I do not know it particularly for the SDS1000X-E series. But from my tests, I can tell that the HW-resources are limited. Originally, even XY-mode was done in software - only later Siglent have managed to cram this functionality into the FPGA, speedint it up substantially but giving up on supporting channels 3 and 4 for XY at the same time.

Siglent often let advanced features (like Bode Plot II)  trickle down to the entry level models, or even implemented new features (like the data recorder) - as long as it was possible, i.e. sufficient HW resources. The fact that we did not get it up to now is indicative that the SDS1000X-E HW isn't up for the task to handle 16-bit data throughout.

So it might would be possible but with very slow display update, or some similar constraint? Because even in that case in some situation it is still better than nothing.



Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on April 21, 2023, 10:41:41 pm
Sounding X-E owners out with our customer feature request before presenting it to Siglent:

Single shot trigger
When trigger conditions are met and the scope goes to STOP mode short buzzer activation is enabled with a new user ON/OFF buzzer capability.
Buzzer activation is for a period different to all other notifications, say 2s.

Buzzer control needs be added into the Trigger menu.

Reason: to provide audible alert to users when single shot trigger conditions are met.

Worthy feature request ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on April 21, 2023, 11:12:12 pm
I've never had a case where I might need that, but I can see if I was waiting a considerable time for an event to occur it might be handy.  What other features are they trying to decide between, or is this all by itself?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on April 21, 2023, 11:20:04 pm
I've never had a case where I might need that, but I can see if I was waiting a considerable time for an event to occur it might be handy.  What other features are they trying to decide between, or is this all by itself?
By itself Bill in that it's a single and new feature request planned to put in front of Siglent.
Looking for support and discussion before I do.

Now get this, our customer 70+ years and with first DSO put this to me in a phone chat this morning.
Whom said you can't teach an old dog new tricks.....and he thinks he found a bug too !
Waiting for his detailed report by email.......
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Neutrion on April 23, 2023, 02:23:40 pm
Sounding X-E owners out with our customer feature request before presenting it to Siglent:

Single shot trigger
When trigger conditions are met and the scope goes to STOP mode short buzzer activation is enabled with a new user ON/OFF buzzer capability.
Buzzer activation is for a period different to all other notifications, say 2s.

Buzzer control needs be added into the Trigger menu.

Reason: to provide audible alert to users when single shot trigger conditions are met.

Worthy feature request ?

It can be useful sometimes, why not? But the 2 second long "buzzing" maybe a tad long and annoying. Is there a chance to have options on it? (Like 10th, half, one and two second.)

And if we are talking about requests,I would like to mention again the ERES discussion above. So if having the extra bits only would mean some very low response time or similar thing (not sure what but keen to know) only in that particular mode, it would be still great to have sometimes.
The 10 bit mode in the 2000plus, have of course longer mem to work with, but in the 1000X-E there are also not visible bit parts out of the display, not sure whether those could be utilized somehow, even with the normal sampling speed/BW.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on April 23, 2023, 04:07:59 pm
Today I was too lazy to take my HD for measuring, so I took the 1104X-E...Boy, it´s loud... ;)
I took this for a simple measurement, let it display the pk-pk voltage of ch1 and ch2.
Ch1 is 10x and 1V/div.
Look at the signal on ch1, it´s slightly more than 3 divisions = 3V ( it´s a 3.2...3.3V source).
And it measures the double ? Why?
Ch2 is "correct" displaying the value.

Martin
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on April 23, 2023, 04:11:32 pm
Today I was too lazy to take my HD for measuring, so I took the 1104X-E...Boy, it´s loud... ;)
I took this for a simple measurement, let it display the pk-pk voltage of ch1 and ch2.
Ch1 is 10x and 1V/div.
Look at the signal on ch1, it´s slightly more than 3 divisions = 3V ( it´s a 3.2...3.3V source).
And it measures the double ? Why?
Ch2 is "correct" displaying the value.

Martin
Expand it out to see if there are any very short spikes (overshoot/undershoot).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on April 23, 2023, 05:02:50 pm
Hi Billy,

First thanks and you´re right. :-+
Following for the ones who will have the same "problem":
I did expand it and saw nothing..
Playing with timebase and so on...nothing changed.
Then I add minimum and maximum....Aha...a negative voltage will be measured but I can´t see it...Couldn´t be so.
Finally I switched off channel 2 and then bingo... ;)
Ch2 "covered" the negative spike of ch1... :P
But respect to the little 1104 for "finding" it.

Martin
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: three_jeeps on April 23, 2023, 06:59:31 pm
Web Interface not working properly - guidance please?
I've connected my sds1104x-e (new, out of box)  to my LAN and the scope acquired a network address successfully.  Go to my browser, set the scope address and get the webserver - all OK. When I go to Instrument Control only the scope display is shown, the control buttons & knobs are missing.
I discovered the little icon arrow to display the controls and when I select it, the display is huge and the only way to see the entire scope (display + control panel) is to have the browser in full screen mode.   There does not seem to be a zoom out capability.


Any suggestions on how to zoom out and resize the display + control panel so I don't have to use full screen all the time??
If helpful: Sw Ver: 6.1.37R8,  OS version 8.3
Thanks
J
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on April 23, 2023, 08:17:59 pm
Web Interface not working properly - guidance please?
I've connected my sds1104x-e (new, out of box)  to my LAN and the scope acquired a network address successfully.  Go to my browser, set the scope address and get the webserver - all OK. When I go to Instrument Control only the scope display is shown, the control buttons & knobs are missing.  I repeated the connection using the TPLink WiFI dongle with the same results.  Tried 3 different browsers with both Wifi and LAN connections, no joy.
IP addresses for both types of connections are static. 

The only thing I can think of is port forwarding but I've been casting around the net and have found nothing discussed, one way or another.  The user manual is useless on this point.

Any suggestions on how to make this work correctly?
If helpful: Sw Ver: 6.1.37R8,  OS version 8.3
Thanks
J
Look at the far upper right of the scope display.  The should be a little grey/silver box with and arrow head pointing right.  Click on that.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: three_jeeps on April 23, 2023, 08:48:34 pm
Thanks, I *finally* found that but the display + control panel is huge...no way to zoom out?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on April 23, 2023, 08:52:50 pm
Thanks, I *finally* found that but the display + control panel is huge...no way to zoom out?
Only with use of you PC’s display scaling.
There is also a full screen icon if you look closely.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on April 23, 2023, 09:23:20 pm
Hi Billy,

First thanks and you´re right. :-+
Following for the ones who will have the same "problem":
I did expand it and saw nothing..
Playing with timebase and so on...nothing changed.
Then I add minimum and maximum....Aha...a negative voltage will be measured but I can´t see it...Couldn´t be so.
Finally I switched off channel 2 and then bingo... ;)
Ch2 "covered" the negative spike of ch1... :P
But respect to the little 1104 for "finding" it.

Martin
:-//
Here is your screenshot:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/?action=dlattach;attach=1767551)

With a careful look the ch1 neg going spike is quite visible.
Trace separation will help.  ;)
With ch1 active to the control ch1 will be atop ch2 allowing you to see it.
Another trick is to trigger on it and with trigger level adjustment you will see the full levels of where the spike is. ;)

Change some display settings to enhance it and if not using measurements increase graticule brightness too. 15% is default which IMO for screenshots is a little too dim, I prefer ~40%.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on April 23, 2023, 09:43:48 pm
You´re soo smart Rob... ;)


Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on April 23, 2023, 09:50:45 pm
At the end of the day, I could see it.
Where I was sitting and where the scope was, I couldn't see it like that, only when I deactivated the second channel.
That was all it was. ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on April 23, 2023, 10:11:30 pm
At the end of the day, I could see it.
Where I was sitting and where the scope was, I couldn't see it like that, only when I deactivated the second channel.
That was all it was. ;)
Nods.....

Remember these are some of the most popular DSO's made and as such we have all manner of skill level in those that own them so can expand on others experiences for all to learn how good these are and display advice on how better to operate them.
Then everyone progresses.

On a recent road trip left one with a 70+ customer and after a phone chat with him a day or so back was absolutely shocked to see how deep he was already diving into it....and for a chap that had only ever had a low end CRO before.  :o
They say you can't teach an old dog new tricks < rubbish !
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on April 23, 2023, 10:36:48 pm
I like this little puppy, none should go below it when looking for a (first) scope.
Me, I strongly need a bigger desk... 8)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tony359 on April 24, 2023, 08:33:45 am
Thanks, I *finally* found that but the display + control panel is huge...no way to zoom out?

Bear in mind you can also VNC to the scope - it won't have the controls but you'll be able to resize the screen more accurately. You can use tightVNC or any VNC client.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bffargo on April 25, 2023, 02:30:12 pm
The 1104X-E is back down to $392.60 USD on Amazon.COM for the U.S. members. Lowest (Amazon shipped and sold) price since a 26-NOV-2021 lightning deal.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0771N1ZF9 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0771N1ZF9)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mjj on April 25, 2023, 06:44:24 pm
Sounding X-E owners out with our customer feature request before presenting it to Siglent:

Single shot trigger
When trigger conditions are met and the scope goes to STOP mode short buzzer activation is enabled with a new user ON/OFF buzzer capability.
Buzzer activation is for a period different to all other notifications, say 2s.

Buzzer control needs be added into the Trigger menu.

Reason: to provide audible alert to users when single shot trigger conditions are met.

Worthy feature request ?

+1 Yes from me
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: .RC. on April 26, 2023, 06:17:40 am
I just ordered one of the 1104X-E models.   My current oscilloscope is a DSO150, so I am hoping it will be slightly better then it.

The E model was only ~$US30 more then the U model.  I assume the "upgrade" still works not that I am sure I would need it just yet.  Been bitten before with buying something, then quickly outgrowing it, and ending up spending more then just going with something decent to begin with.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on April 26, 2023, 11:21:21 pm
Quote
My current oscilloscope is a DSO150, so I am hoping it will be slightly better then it.

DSO150 ??

Don´t tell me it´s this here:

https://eleshop.de/jye-dso150-serie.html
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: .RC. on April 27, 2023, 02:29:30 am
Yes that's it. I have had it for several years. You may not believe this.  But it is not that good.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on April 27, 2023, 06:25:07 am
Yes that's it. I have had it for several years. You may not believe this.  But it is not that good.

What do you mean? DSO150 is pretty much a toy. SDS1104X-E is real, professional instrument.. There is no comparison at all..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: .RC. on April 27, 2023, 06:47:20 am
I was attempting humour.  I probably should not give up my day job just yet.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on April 27, 2023, 07:16:37 am
I was attempting humour.  I probably should not give up my day job just yet.
I got it 100% !
You will be very impressed with X-E capabilities.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on April 27, 2023, 08:07:47 am
I was attempting humour.  I probably should not give up my day job just yet.

It's not you..
 :palm: |O
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nikitasius on April 27, 2023, 09:26:22 am
Hi, I'm facing a few problems with the 1000X–E I2C...
btw have a question, why you connect ground twice from same scope at same points? i,e, if you connected 1 time probe, 2nd automatically grounded cause 4 channel share same PE. Just a newbie question. Technically it suppose to create ground loops.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on April 27, 2023, 12:16:16 pm
Hi, I'm facing a few problems with the 1000X–E I2C...
btw have a question, why you connect ground twice from same scope at same points? i,e, if you connected 1 time probe, 2nd automatically grounded cause 4 channel share same PE. Just a newbie question. Technically it suppose to create ground loops.

Yes GND... when DC and AC peoples talk about P, E and N ... but jump to tens and hundreds of MHz world is very different.


If you work with DC, or audio frequencies situation is very different compared to signals what include 10's or 100's MHz frequency components. And remember example 1Hz or 1kHz square wave may have fast edges so they include high frequency components.  With high frequencies even normal probe GND wire (10-15cm) is way too long.   Example 10cm wire inductance is around 130nH. Its reactance is around 82 ohm @ 100MHz.  But when you measure this wire with your DMM it display 0.oxx ohm. And 100MHz is not lot if we look today digital electronics signals rising or falling edges.
So, it depends what are you doing.
But also then there is other thing. Today every place (except in lab shielded and isolated "silent room") we have lot of EMI pollution. RF signals everywhere. Every wire is antenna  (probe is also antenna). Look weak signal what is low freq but if your probing pick up all EMI / RF noise from environment you may see more noise than your signal under test.



Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: nikitasius on April 27, 2023, 01:36:05 pm
rf-loop thanks for nice reply, but i did not speak about HF case (when folks use metal springs attached to probes to reduce ground path).
Just from the picture, when there are 2 probes and both are attached by the wire.. idk why attach 2nd wire if 1st is already ground to scope. And it's same ground point.. and the distance doesn't make an issues and freqs also guess. Just about that :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on April 27, 2023, 01:59:55 pm
You should still attach the ground at the DUT end of all probes.  Coax cable is not like shielded audio cable and the outer conductor of the coax is doing much more than just providing shielding.  It is the return path for the signal traveling through it.  For audio frequency signals it's not going to make as much of a difference than it would be for some RF signal, but attaching all grounds is the right thing to do.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on April 27, 2023, 02:13:56 pm
rf-loop thanks for nice reply, but i did not speak about HF case (when folks use metal springs attached to probes to reduce ground path).
Just from the picture, when there are 2 probes and both are attached by the wire.. idk why attach 2nd wire if 1st is already ground to scope. And it's same ground point.. and the distance doesn't make an issues and freqs also guess. Just about that :)

In many simple LF cases one GND is enough. My previous answer was related to when a simple use of one probe's GND wire is not enough and for situations where the probe's "long" GND wire is not suitable at all.

Often (but not always), when just watching slow "easy" signals on several channels, it is enough (limited acceptable with notes) if the one GND wire of one probe is connected.

But also as BillyO well said...   



If not really know... best to connect least all probes GND. It is also a good way to get used to the correct common practices. This way the user can avoid some of the traps that are offered around every corner..


And for end; If people do not know what he/she are doing and what is what and how things go..  connecting every probe GND is right way. (but also avoid ground loops and think how GND currents flow in DUT and how they may affect...)

As we know there is no simple answers and more details we go and deeper and deeper all goes more and more complex and finally infinite complex if go enough deep to details....
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 1audio on April 30, 2023, 12:11:36 am
RE notification when the complex trigger is triggered. Two things- first a double short beep would be distictive and not annoying. Second- possibly some alert/interrupt over the wi-fi-ethernet interface. Having a way to see the rare event can be really useful. Waiting at a static screen to see it (and it may be subtle) is very much no fun.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on April 30, 2023, 12:42:16 am
RE notification when the complex trigger is triggered. Two things- first a double short beep would be distictive and not annoying. Second- possibly some alert/interrupt over the wi-fi-ethernet interface. Having a way to see the rare event can be really useful. Waiting at a static screen to see it (and it may be subtle) is very much no fun.
I'm thinking just a defined beep different to those the scope normally makes as even a 1/2 to 1s is different from anything it currently emits.
There are other notification features already implemented by way of the logic level Trig Out/Pass/Fail rear BNC that we can use with a Pass/Fail mask.

Thanks for the feedback.  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bffargo on April 30, 2023, 03:18:48 pm
Cheaper USB WiFi dongle found to work reliably: Look for any device that uses the MediaTek MT7601 chipset. Plug n play, works great.

Can be found as low as $1.99 USD (shipped on Ali in their 3 for $6 section) to around $3.50 USD average total price shipped alone on AliExpress. Higher elsewhere, but Temu, eBay and Amazon all sell them too.

Nice benefit is that most have a short positional antenna built in for much better signal quality.

Screenshot below just shows some of the ones available from various sites including the standard packaging to look for if you are interested in trying one skipping the special TP-Link one.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: .RC. on May 01, 2023, 11:24:52 pm
Arrived this morning.  :)  It was calibrated in January 2023.  It is Dave's fault I bought it, he said get a 4 channel scope in 2023 over a 2 channel   ;)

[attachimg=1]

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on May 01, 2023, 11:29:10 pm
Congrats, now you have a usable scope... ;)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: .RC. on May 03, 2023, 08:48:26 am
A totally pointless post, but did the obligatory lets look at my mains sine wave on the scope test.  :)

It is a crappy sinewave as I did it though an isolated 9V AC, 2 pin transformer plug pack. (I have watched the how to blow up your oscilloscope video a few times now)

I also should have had the scope on AC, not DC.

I can also see transistors switching. Yellow is the collector and blue is the base.  On a basic flashing LED circuit done on a breadboard.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mwb1100 on May 03, 2023, 06:25:23 pm
It is Dave's fault I bought it, he said get a 4 channel scope in 2023 over a 2 channel   ;)

Dave has a lot to answer for - and I'm just talking about the pile of test gear in my closet.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: .RC. on May 08, 2023, 10:22:26 am
Why would anyone need 4 channels?

[attach=1]

This the mosfets of a ZVS style induction heater.   I had a mishap with a blown trace while it was working and wondered if a mosfet (it has two) got damaged as these circuits are notorious for blowing mosfets.. So ran it off my small current limited benchpower supply to check it.

Looks OK.  Pink and green are the gates for each mosfet, yellow and blue the drains. Pink controls the yellow and green controls the blue.

I did stuff up badly doing a dumb arse thing without my brain engaged but with no consequences, even though I had watched how not to blow up your oscilloscope.  Completely forgetting that the ground pins are all connected.  I had the two probes connected to the gate with the ground to negative.

Then the drains with the ground to positive as the gates were from the negative rail.   So you know what happened.  The power supply which is fully isolated, hit the 5a current restriction I had set and pulled down to 2 volts.

So I left the ground pins on the drain probes flapping in the breeze and it still got a good signal.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: llaabbss on May 31, 2023, 10:08:05 pm
Recently I bought TP-LINK TL-WN725N dongle to use it with SDS 1104X-E.
My router credentials hold password being 26 characters long.
I was not able to connect to my WiFi as well untill I set an WPA encryption propertly.
It was TKIP. When I changed it to AES (or TKIP+AES) in router settings in admin page.
Afterwards everything started to work as expected.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on June 13, 2023, 08:21:20 pm
From another thread
I also updated the software to 6.1.37R10, at that time. Tonight, I saw in some other post a recommendation to also update the OS. I am not having success with that process.

Here are my stat, before and after:
Software = 6.1.37R10
UBOOT - OS = 8.3
FPGA = 2021-11-08
Hardware = 01-04
Type = SDS1204X-E

Background: !I am not much of a computer person!

I am using a new-ish PNY 32G thumb drive. Windows 11 said it had a problem, when downloading the new OS zip, but that flag cleared after a few moments, as is typical. Even with the blip, the drive always seems to operate correctly, after the flag clears. My guess is that the drive was removed from the computer, sometime, without ejecting it properly.
FWIW I only use 8 GB dives formatted FAT32 with 4k clusters.

As these scopes don't have a RTC any files saved to USB don't have timestamps so Windows in particular believes the drive has a fault which must be repaired. < Ignore it.

The big OS update was for V2 to support these new FW features:
From the release notes of V6.1.37R2

Added data logger featuring Sample  and Measurement Logger functions
Added counter function
Added Labels
Added NTP (Network Time Protocol) and Time Zone. Also requires OS update to SDS1xx4X-E_OSV2 which is located on the SIGLENT product webpage. The OS Update Instructions is also included SDS1xx4X-E_OSV2.zip
Modified negative or positive of horizontal delay: Time zero is in trigger. Before trigger, time position is -time (negative delay relative to trigger) and after trigger is +time  (positive delay relative to trigger)
Fixed a bug with Bin2CSV for ROLL mode
Rebuilt Bin2CSV to File Converter which can also convert data logger file to CSV.
Fixed a bug: some case there is a blue line on decode bus
Fixed a bug with saving hex MSO CSV file
Fixed a bug: After rebooting , Bode Plot cursor can’t be moved
Fixed a bug: fine adjusting with customer probe
WiFi supported Spaces and Special Characters


V3 OS update OTOH is to support new HW....note the instruction:
If SDS1xx4X-E hardware has version below 09, you don’t need to update SDS1xx4X-E OS.
PDF attached.


If you have NTP working you should be good to go.
Tips for such >
Setup the scope on your LAN and obtain an IP address. The LAN indicator should lose any red X.
With PC Google for your local NTP server and enter its IP into the IP box in the new Time/Date feature and choose Display and Sync.
Not sure if I've asked this before, but how do you know which OS is already installed on the scope?

Unlike the firmware/software/ADS versions, I can't see how OS versions 1,2,3 tie up with the info on the System Status page? Even the unzipped files don't give any clues (even the latest v3 OS released on 5th Jan 2023 show file dates of 2019 & 2021).

My Uboot-OS version is 8.3
Hardware version 01-05

Does that mean I still have ver 1 OS?
No. Yours is V3.
@ Tautech
"FWIW I only use 8 GB dives formatted FAT32 with 4k clusters."
I caught the 8GB/32GB requirement in the instructions. My 32GB was handy, so I grabbed it. I don't know if I have an 8GB; I will have to look. I did not know that the scope is particular about FAT32 and 4k clusters. To be honest, that is a little outside of my knowledge base. I will have to find out what protocols I have.

I have the same questions as 807... I thought Uboot-OS 8.3 was my OS version and that it was so old that it didn't even have the current series numbering. So, where do we find our OS version?

I have not begun working on putting together a network for my lab. So, I don't know about those things and I don't know about NTP. But, should the bottom line to my understanding be this... As my Uboot is 8.3, which is lower than 9, I do not need to update the OS anyway? If not, I will have to keep working at it and I would need your continued support.

I have told you, previously, how much we appreciate all you do for our Community, Tautech. That stands double, for today!
There are 3 important identifiers in your Sys Info page.
HW, Boot OS and SW version.

Only latest 9 version HW requires the latest OS install.
8.3 identifies the OS version = OS3
Latest SW/FW is V6.1.37R10

It Optimized VGA configuration (Variable Gain Amplifier)


Better here than in another thread........
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: t1d on June 14, 2023, 08:14:25 am
Thank you, tautech, for clearing that up. I say this as a reminder to others... The update instructions recommend that the user removes the update files from their thumb drive, so that the update does not automatically run the next time the drive is used. That is the one remaining task, for me. Cheers, with much appreciation.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 807 on June 14, 2023, 08:58:07 am
...Only latest 9 version HW requires the latest OS install...

Is it the second part of the Hardware Version number that shows the actual version?

Mine is 01-05. Does that mean that I have version 5 HW?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on June 14, 2023, 09:12:37 am
Thank you, tautech, for clearing that up. I say this as a reminder to others... The update instructions recommend that the user removes the update files from their thumb drive, so that the OS update does not automatically run the next time the drive is used. That is the one remaining task, for me. Cheers, with much appreciation.
Addition of OS. ^^^
Firmware upgrades will not autorun at boot.  ;)
...Only latest 9 version HW requires the latest OS install...

Is it the second part of the Hardware Version number that shows the actual version?

Mine is 01-05. Does that mean that I have version 5 HW?
Yep.
HW version 9 is quite new from production.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 807 on June 14, 2023, 09:45:41 am
I bought my scope 6 months ago from Telonic in UK. So there's been 4 HW versions since then?

Although I've just found the calibration certificate. It has a cal date of 1st March 2022, so was already 9 months old when I bought it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on June 14, 2023, 09:55:04 am
I bought my scope 6 months ago from Telonic in UK. So there's been 4 HW versions since then?
I haven't seen them.
But consider there may have been beta versions before finalising on a production version but I couldn't say as I don't know.
Quote
Although I've just found the calibration certificate. It has a cal date of 1st March 2022, so was already 9 months old when I bought it.
Consider a worldwide distribution chain and all the steps/delays there might be before the unit you got arrived in the UK. Shipping from HQ to Germany then to UK could easy take some months.....to NZ from HQ often is nearly 2 months however we are the only official NZ point of sale without any further distribution chain.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 807 on June 14, 2023, 10:44:21 am
Quote
Although I've just found the calibration certificate. It has a cal date of 1st March 2022, so was already 9 months old when I bought it.
Consider a worldwide distribution chain and all the steps/delays there might be before the unit you got arrived in the UK. Shipping from HQ to Germany then to UK could easy take some months.....to NZ from HQ often is nearly 2 months however we are the only official NZ point of sale without any further distribution chain.

Oh yes. I understand the distribution delays & even the time sitting in the store before it's sold. I wasn't complaining. I just added that bit to clarify the understanding as to why there's an apparent 4 update difference in my HW version compared to the current version.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on June 14, 2023, 03:17:45 pm
I bought my scope 6 months ago from Telonic in UK. So there's been 4 HW versions since then?
Consider the chip crisis during Corona. When you cannot source some essential parts anymore, you have to do a redesign of the hardware, so you can use a different part (with slightly different specs or just another case and/or pinout. When you've done this and just then another important part becomes unavailable, you have to design the next HW version - maybe even before any significant quantity of the prior design have been produced.

This can well lead to a significant number of HW-versions within a relatively short time.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on June 14, 2023, 03:19:57 pm
HW version 9 is quite new from production.

I bought mine 10 months ago (in NA) and it is HW version 09-06.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tv84 on June 14, 2023, 03:26:10 pm
I bought mine 10 months ago (in NA) and it is HW version 09-06.

Must be the DeLorean version...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on June 14, 2023, 03:34:44 pm
I bought mine 10 months ago (in NA) and it is HW version 09-06.

Must be the DeLorean version...
LOL!

Yeah, strange tings happen if the sweep rate goes faster than 88us/div.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 807 on June 15, 2023, 10:34:17 am
HW version 9 is quite new from production.

I bought mine 10 months ago (in NA) and it is HW version 09-06.

Having 2 numbers seperated by a hyphen is what I find confusing. So you have version 6 HW, (as it's the second part that shows the HW version). So what does the first part of the number represent? Yours is 09, mine is 01 (01-05)  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on June 15, 2023, 02:37:11 pm
Having 2 numbers seperated by a hyphen is what I find confusing. So you have version 6 HW, (as it's the second part that shows the HW version). So what does the first part of the number represent? Yours is 09, mine is 01 (01-05)  :-//

I'd only be guessing but it might denote a production facility or production line.  It's a good bet Siglent are not in the PCBA business and farm that out to folks with the facilities and expertise.

But I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mwb1100 on June 15, 2023, 06:38:08 pm
Having 2 numbers seperated by a hyphen is what I find confusing. So you have version 6 HW, (as it's the second part that shows the HW version).

Based on Tautech's posts that seems to be correct.  However the firmware release notes for 6.1.37R9 say this:
Quote
Fixed the problem: The skew of the two ADCs is not accuracy for  hardware  of  09 version  (System  Status  shows  Hardware Version: 09-xx).  The  other  hardware  version  has  no  this problem

Which certainly doesn't help reduce any confusion.  Hopefully Siglent can correct this in the next release of the OS and firmware, assuming there is one (the release notes for the OS V3 say the same).

By the way, based on the release notes comment for 6.1.37R8 firmware, I'd guess that the hardware change in revision 9 was a new display controller:
Quote
Be Compatible with a new VGA chip
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on June 16, 2023, 06:34:54 am
By the way, based on the release notes comment for 6.1.37R8 firmware, I'd guess that the hardware change in revision 9 was a new display controller:
Quote
Be Compatible with a new VGA chip
VGA is not a display controller. VGA = Variable Gain Amplifier
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 807 on June 16, 2023, 10:13:58 am
Having 2 numbers seperated by a hyphen is what I find confusing. So you have version 6 HW, (as it's the second part that shows the HW version).

Based on Tautech's posts that seems to be correct.  However the firmware release notes for 6.1.37R9 say this:
Quote
Fixed the problem: The skew of the two ADCs is not accuracy for  hardware  of  09 version  (System  Status  shows  Hardware Version: 09-xx).  The  other  hardware  version  has  no  this problem

Which certainly doesn't help reduce any confusion.  Hopefully Siglent can correct this in the next release of the OS and firmware, assuming there is one (the release notes for the OS V3 say the same).

Good spot. I didn't clock that when I read the release notes for the firmware & OS.

Perhaps tautech can clarify?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on June 16, 2023, 09:12:14 pm
Having 2 numbers seperated by a hyphen is what I find confusing. So you have version 6 HW, (as it's the second part that shows the HW version).

Based on Tautech's posts that seems to be correct.  However the firmware release notes for 6.1.37R9 say this:
Quote
Fixed the problem: The skew of the two ADCs is not accuracy for  hardware  of  09 version  (System  Status  shows  Hardware Version: 09-xx).  The  other  hardware  version  has  no  this problem

Which certainly doesn't help reduce any confusion.  Hopefully Siglent can correct this in the next release of the OS and firmware, assuming there is one (the release notes for the OS V3 say the same).

Good spot. I didn't clock that when I read the release notes for the firmware & OS.

Perhaps tautech can clarify?
All we need to know is in the relevant release notes.
Every FW/OS update has them in an attached PDF.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on July 05, 2023, 05:41:36 pm
Hi there!

I've been experimenting with Bode Plot II with my SDS1104X-E and my SDG1032X (both hacked  ::) ) using both USB or LAN interfaces and the plot response seems to be slower with LAN.

Is it normal?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on July 05, 2023, 05:45:57 pm
Hi there!

I've been experimenting with Bode Plot II with my SDS1104X-E and my SDG1032X (both hacked  ::) ) using both USB or LAN interfaces and the plot response seems to be slower with LAN.

Is it normal?
It would certainly be possible.  I've not used USB with my scope, but LAN is subject to base speed, activity and collision rate so it can vary quite a bit.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on July 08, 2023, 08:42:39 am
Well, following my quest to controlling the SDG1032X from my SDS1104X-E for Bode plotting easily and conveniently, I cannot do it by using the rear USB-B sockets from both machines, I mean, using an USB-B to USB-B cable from one unit to the other.

"AWG not detected"  ::)

If I connect the back USB-B from the AWG to the scope's front USB-A then it all goes hunky dory. On the other hand, if I connect the scope's back USB-B to the AWG's front USB-A, no deal!

Aren't all USB connectors the same?
Am I  doing something wrong?



P.S.: In case you're wondering, I want to keep both machines connected permanently without cables hanging from the front of the units and/or having to remove the front attached USB stick I keep in the scope all the time.

P.S.2: Also, the second USB at the back of the scope is already used by the WiFi dongle.

[EDIT: typo]
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 08, 2023, 09:12:46 am
Aren't all USB connectors the same?
;D
No.

USB B is Device USB, that is the device under control from a USB A connection.

Use either of the USB cables that came with each of these instruments with type A in the DSO and end type B in the AWG.

Yes you can run out of USB A sockets with these DSO's however solutions are very cheap:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005605778448 (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005605778448)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Roman oh on July 09, 2023, 06:36:48 am
Back in this thread around#2205 it was noted that a firmware upgrade wiped out stored settings, and tautech responded that this should not happen. Can I suggest that a useful and possibly simple to implement improvement would be to also NOT wipe out the WiFi settings with a software upgrade.
Obviously not a big deal, but I can’t imagine a reason why they would choose to do so…
Sure, a wired connection eliminates this issue, but the WiFi in my case is rock solid and wire is inconvenient.
Roman
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on July 09, 2023, 05:25:59 pm
Thanks for your answer but...

Yes you can run out of USB A sockets with these DSO's however solutions are very cheap:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005605778448 (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005605778448)

Sorry but that link does not seem to work here. Can you please copy-paste the description of that item?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on July 09, 2023, 05:30:10 pm
Thanks for your answer but...

Yes you can run out of USB A sockets with these DSO's however solutions are very cheap:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005605778448 (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005605778448)

Sorry but that link does not seem to work here. Can you please copy-paste the description of that item?
Sorry, here's another:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005633637139.html? (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005633637139.html?)

Just add the .html? to the previous link.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on July 10, 2023, 06:54:47 am
Thanks, mate!... l I'll try it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: delvo on July 14, 2023, 09:57:09 pm
How do I enable the Trigger Out? According to the Manual it should be in Utility -> IO Set -> Trigger Out. The Trigger Out option is not in it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on July 14, 2023, 10:31:10 pm
Hi,

Which version is your manual ?
Page ?
In the current manual (EN05B, 08/2021) there´s nothing to find.
My guess is, the output is trigger out as long as you don´t activate pass/fail mode.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: delvo on July 14, 2023, 10:45:03 pm
I had an old version of it and it looks like its just always outputting. Thanks
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on July 14, 2023, 10:49:45 pm
No problem, next step would be to test if I´m right, but this I can do later.
Another thing:
If it´s so, then it´s not mentioned in the manual or I couldn´t find it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 1audio on July 18, 2023, 01:57:39 am
I'm having an issue with the probe shield resistance. I have an 1104-XE that came with 4 probes.They have been working fine for most tasks however I'm looking at low level signals now and noticed a lot of noise that change when I move probe cables. I chaced it down to the shields on the probes. They vary fom around 4 Ohms from clip to BNC to over 20 Ohms. When looking at low level signals the shield can become an antenna if its not well grounded. Do other users have this problem? I tried some other probes in my collection. The miniature HP probes do'n seem to connect on the center pin. Te lare hP and Tek probes I have are lower DCR shield (1 Ohm) and seem to be better.

Do I cave some defective probes? Who is making good low level probes today? My other probes are all 20+ years old.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on July 18, 2023, 04:10:21 am
4 ohms is OK as long as it doesn't change.  My Siglet PP215s are all about 3.5 ohms. 

Well-made probes from Probemaster.

https://probemaster.com/4900-series-oscilloscope-probes/
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on July 22, 2023, 08:16:27 am
Well, following my quest to controlling the SDG1032X from my SDS1104X-E for Bode plotting easily and conveniently, I cannot do it by using the rear USB-B sockets from both machines, I mean, using an USB-B to USB-B cable from one unit to the other.

"AWG not detected"  ::)

If I connect the back USB-B from the AWG to the scope's front USB-A then it all goes hunky dory. On the other hand, if I connect the scope's back USB-B to the AWG's front USB-A, no deal!

Aren't all USB connectors the same?
Am I  doing something wrong?



P.S.: In case you're wondering, I want to keep both machines connected permanently without cables hanging from the front of the units and/or having to remove the front attached USB stick I keep in the scope all the time.

P.S.2: Also, the second USB at the back of the scope is already used by the WiFi dongle.

[EDIT: typo]

Aren't all USB connectors the same?
;D
No.

USB B is Device USB, that is the device under control from a USB A connection.

Use either of the USB cables that came with each of these instruments with type A in the DSO and end type B in the AWG.

Yes you can run out of USB A sockets with these DSO's however solutions are very cheap:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005605778448 (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005605778448)
Thanks for your answer but...

Yes you can run out of USB A sockets with these DSO's however solutions are very cheap:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005605778448 (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005605778448)

Sorry but that link does not seem to work here. Can you please copy-paste the description of that item?
Sorry, here's another:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005633637139.html? (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005633637139.html?)

Just add the .html? to the previous link.

Thanks, mate!... l I'll try it.


Tautech, I'm glad to say that the solution you cited for the scope's shortage of USB ports works perfectly!

Thanks a lot for the hint!  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Jimima on August 09, 2023, 07:08:22 pm
Hi, just got myself an SDS1104x-e and I have a question about the intensity knob. My understanding from the manual is that with no menu active turning the knob should adjust the intensity. However this does not happen on my scope, the knob is generally inactive in this case. Moreover, if I have a menu item selected and I hide the menu with the menu button then the control still controls the now hidden menu option, which can cause a bit of confusion. Am I misunderstanding something about how this is supposed to work?

EDIT: seems like I was reading the wrong manual(!) and in fact this is not how the intensity control works on this model. Odd, seeing as it's still labelled "intensity" but oh well
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 807 on August 09, 2023, 10:56:26 pm
Hi, just got myself an SDS1104x-e and I have a question about the intensity knob. My understanding from the manual is that with no menu active turning the knob should adjust the intensity. However this does not happen on my scope, the knob is generally inactive in this case. Moreover, if I have a menu item selected and I hide the menu with the menu button then the control still controls the now hidden menu option, which can cause a bit of confusion. Am I misunderstanding something about how this is supposed to work?

EDIT: seems like I was reading the wrong manual(!) and in fact this is not how the intensity control works on this model. Odd, seeing as it's still labelled "intensity" but oh well

Can you give an example of which menu still works when it's hidden? I've tried a few & although I still get a beep when the menu buttons along the bottom are pressed, nothing actually changes. The intensity/adjust knob light goes out too & the knob doesn't do anything.

What firmware is installed?

I agree about the labelling of the intensity knob. Seems strange to call it that when you still have to go through menus to change the intensity. 🤷‍♂️
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on August 10, 2023, 07:35:13 am
Well, that's just history.

Originally, the "Intensity" knob controlled the screen intensity by default, but was also used for item selection as soon as a menu was selected. However, you can have a timeout for menus and after it has expired, the menu is gone and the knob controls the intensity again. Many folks (including me) have sweared a lot when they turned the knob without looking closely, expecting to alter the previously selected item - but changed the intensity instead, just because the menu has timed out in the meantime. AT one point, Siglent quite obviously changed the default behaviour and disabled the intensity control. Intensity is not a function you would use very frequently on a digital scope anyway.

Long story short, the knob once worked as advertised, but not anymore. At all times, something like "Universal Control" was the way more appropriate term for this knob. Unfortunately, FW-updates cannot change the front panel labels... ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Jimima on August 10, 2023, 08:05:43 am
Hi, just got myself an SDS1104x-e and I have a question about the intensity knob. My understanding from the manual is that with no menu active turning the knob should adjust the intensity. However this does not happen on my scope, the knob is generally inactive in this case. Moreover, if I have a menu item selected and I hide the menu with the menu button then the control still controls the now hidden menu option, which can cause a bit of confusion. Am I misunderstanding something about how this is supposed to work?

EDIT: seems like I was reading the wrong manual(!) and in fact this is not how the intensity control works on this model. Odd, seeing as it's still labelled "intensity" but oh well

Can you give an example of which menu still works when it's hidden?

So I found that the intensity (ironically?) and maybe other options in that menu can be adjusted if you select it, then hide the menu and turn the knob. Not a huge deal, maybe it's by design but I was confused by the whole thing for a while. Thanks for the explanations, it all makes sense... ish
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 807 on August 10, 2023, 12:30:02 pm
Well, that's just history.

Originally, the "Intensity" knob controlled the screen intensity by default, but was also used for item selection as soon as a menu was selected. However, you can have a timeout for menus and after it has expired, the menu is gone and the knob controls the intensity again. Many folks (including me) have sweared a lot when they turned the knob without looking closely, expecting to alter the previously selected item - but changed the intensity instead, just because the menu has timed out in the meantime. AT one point, Siglent quite obviously changed the default behaviour and disabled the intensity control. Intensity is not a function you would use very frequently on a digital scope anyway.

Long story short, the knob once worked as advertised, but not anymore. At all times, something like "Universal Control" was the way more appropriate term for this knob. Unfortunately, FW-updates cannot change the front panel labels... ;)

Yes. I wondered if it might have been a historic function that had been dropped with later updates. I wouldn't have thought it was too much of a problem if it was accidentally adjusted though. Simply turn it up/down again. But as you say, with digital scopes the intensity doesn't usually need to be adjusted, unlike older CRT scopes where the display may start to fade at higher frequencies.

Can you buy grey tippex? 🤔🙂
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on August 25, 2023, 11:12:01 pm
Just wondering if anyone has done or seen reported any testing of how high a frequency these scopes will still trigger reliably on?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 26, 2023, 12:41:10 am
Just wondering if anyone has done or seen reported any testing of how high a frequency these scopes will still trigger reliably on?
Any rules ?

With sufficient amplitude we can keep increasing sensitivity to get a waveform to trigger on but if we push too high aliasing becomes a problem and normally seen when the counter doesn't match the input frequency.
Before tests I imagine ~400 MHz which fits with Nyquist.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on August 26, 2023, 12:52:01 am
Just wondering if anyone has done or seen reported any testing of how high a frequency these scopes will still trigger reliably on?

Yes, beyond the point where it makes any sense.  It is a digital sinc interpolated trigger and as you approach the theoretical Nyquist limit it breaks up.  You can display a 400MHz signal just fine, IIRC.  Or, if you activate the paired channel, you'll see the same signal aliased down to 100MHz.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on August 26, 2023, 12:53:40 am
Before tests I imagine ~400 MHz which fits with Nyquist.
That fits.  Using a sine wave I was able to get to 425MHz and have the waveform stable and the trigger point adjustable over more than 75% of the waveform.  It started to get a little jittery at 450MHz.  Signal was 526mVpp being fed in @ 425MHz and being displayed as 106mVpp, so -14db. Quite beyond where it makes sense.

BTW, the counter up in the upper right lost it's mind at about 350MHz.  The "Measure" counter worked fine up to 425MHz.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on August 26, 2023, 01:02:26 am
Quite beyond where it makes sense.
Quite so, but there are use cases where one may not have access to a counter and while not precise the scopes counter might serve the required need.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: bdunham7 on August 26, 2023, 01:38:12 am
Quite so, but there are use cases where one may not have access to a counter and while not precise the scopes counter might serve the required need.

Well, the problem with that is you can never be sure at what point the counter function becomes unreliable.  Even if you were able to characterize it in someone's lab who had the equipment, there are too many variables--signal level, noise, etc--to know whether it was accurate or not in practice.  What might work is the FFT going to 500MHz, that still shows fairly reliably if attenuated all the way to the top, again IIRC.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on September 18, 2023, 11:32:12 am
I think I've found yet another bug in my SDS1204X-E (born SDS1104X-E  ::) )

It is normally operating with WLAN connection to my local net. I use the internet connection to access an NPT server and so get the timestamp for the scope. So far so good.

If I want to run a Bode Plot II with my SDG1062X (also born SDG1032X  ^-^ ) I must connect them via LAN, otherwise (USB) I get noise (that's another story  >:( ) so I go to Utility - I/O - Net Interface LAN.

Again, so far so good; Bode Plot II connects OK with the AWG and plots fine. Once I'm done I must exit Bode Plot II and then restore the WLAN connection again with success but I see that there's no way to connect to the previously accessed NTP server any more. If I shut down the scope and restart it again, WLAN connects fine (I can access the scope via web server) but the NTP server still fails to connect. I have found that if I go to System - Date/Time - NTP - Server IP and change the NTP server to another one it succeeds in connecting. In fact, If I change just one digit of the previously non working IP address and then put it back as it was before, the NTP server connects OK.

In short, it seems that once you change the interface from WLAN to LAN and then back to WLAN you have to change the NTP IP address to get a successful connection, even if you type the same IP again!

Please can anyone confirm that this is not an issue with my scope only?

SDS1204X-E
SW:    6.1.37.R10
OS:    8.3
FPGA: 2021-11-08
HW:   01-05
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on September 18, 2023, 11:44:06 am
In short, it seems that once you change the interface from WLAN to LAN and then back to WLAN you have to change the NTP IP address to get a successful connection, even if you type the same IP again!

How are you making this change from LAN to WLAN and back?  Are you physically changing cables?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on September 18, 2023, 12:01:52 pm
Nope. Both LAN cable and the WLAN adapter are always connected. Just switching fron WLAN to LAN and back to WLAN via the Utility menus.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on September 18, 2023, 12:06:15 pm
I stopped using WLAN so I can't check this directly for you, but I think what happens when you change interface the IP stack gets dumped and re-started.

Why not just connect your LAN to your router?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on September 18, 2023, 12:15:19 pm
Because the router is quite far away from the scope. In fact it is on another floor!

I'm using the WLAN just for that purpose but must connect to the AWG via LAN.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: BillyO on September 18, 2023, 12:22:02 pm
I don't think your scope is any different.  If it can't detect an NTP server when the stack restarts it stops trying otherwise you will keep getting errors.

There are IP over mains adapters that will allow you to connect your lab LAN to the router.  I use these (https://www.amazon.ca/TP-Link-Powerline-Ethernet-TL-PA7017-KIT/dp/B084CZMYNM (https://www.amazon.ca/TP-Link-Powerline-Ethernet-TL-PA7017-KIT/dp/B084CZMYNM)), but there lots of other makes as well.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on September 18, 2023, 01:16:39 pm
There are IP over mains adapters that will allow you to connect your lab LAN to the router.  I use these (https://www.amazon.ca/TP-Link-Powerline-Ethernet-TL-PA7017-KIT/dp/B084CZMYNM (https://www.amazon.ca/TP-Link-Powerline-Ethernet-TL-PA7017-KIT/dp/B084CZMYNM)), but there lots of other makes as well.

Been there, done that!  :)

I'm a Short Wave DXer aficionado and once you plug one of those things in your house, the AM reception (LW, MW and SW) is jammed and, what is even worse, the PLC generated noise gets into my stereo's RIAA preamp for vinyl albums!  :-\
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: pope on September 18, 2023, 03:01:36 pm
otherwise (USB) I get noise (that's another story  >:( )

What sort of noise? Care to elaborate?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on September 18, 2023, 03:50:53 pm
otherwise (USB) I get noise (that's another story  >:( )

What sort of noise? Care to elaborate?
Some time ago I said here that I have experienced a better Bode Plot speed using USB than via LAN but was a pain to use because I had both USB ports accupied: the front with a USB stick and the back with a WLAN adapter. The other USB port in the back (USB-B) was unsuitable for this. Tautech recommended me to use an USB hub to get extra ports and so I did. I bought one of those cheap USB hubs and plugged in the back USB-A port, and then plugged the WLAN port and the cable from the AWG into that hub.

Everythig worked fine but I began to experience some problems with noise: probing low amplitude signals, particularly when using 10X in the probes, resulted into high noise readings and what can be described as "occasional heebee-jeebies" with the scope traces. Suspecting from the recent hub addition I removed it and everything returned to normal. I'm pretty sure it may be because the USB hub I bought is one of those chinesium cheapos from AliExpress and sure it was cheap! the cable was not shielded neither the "shells" for the USB connections. I corrected those two issues and the problem disappeared almost completely with a little tiny bit of noise still present and very weak and less frequent "heebee-jeebies", but they're still there. As I do not want to have all my measurements permanently disturbed with noise and weird movements, no matter how weak they are, I decided to take the hub off definitely. Besides, I have no intention to try other hubs and discover the hard way they all make the same problems.

Because of that I'm now reverting to Bode Plot via LAN with the aforementined problems.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mwb1100 on September 18, 2023, 07:53:18 pm
These NTP options might help:

  - "Sync" should force a re-synchronization with the NTP server.  You'd have to do this manually, but pushing a button is better then screwing around with the NTP server address

  - "Periodic Sync" on and "Interval" set to 1h should get you an automatic re-sync within an hour.  So if you can live with the time not being right for an hour...

It's too bad the shortest re-sync interval is 1h

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mwb1100 on September 18, 2023, 08:01:52 pm
Besides, I have no intention to try other hubs and discover the hard way they all make the same problems.

I certainly can't say that a hub from a respected vendor would solve your problems, but I do think there's a really good chance that a hub from a respected vendor would behave better than a 90 cent no name Aliexpress USB hub.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 18, 2023, 08:06:20 pm
otherwise (USB) I get noise (that's another story  >:( )

What sort of noise? Care to elaborate?
Some time ago I said here that I have experienced a better Bode Plot speed using USB than via LAN but was a pain to use because I had both USB ports accupied: the front with a USB stick and the back with a WLAN adapter. The other USB port in the back (USB-B) was unsuitable for this. Tautech recommended me to use an USB hub to get extra ports and so I did. I bought one of those cheap USB hubs and plugged in the back USB-A port, and then plugged the WLAN port and the cable from the AWG into that hub.

Everythig worked fine but I began to experience some problems with noise: probing low amplitude signals, particularly when using 10X in the probes, resulted into high noise readings and what can be described as "occasional heebee-jeebies" with the scope traces. Suspecting from the recent hub addition I removed it and everything returned to normal. I'm pretty sure it may be because the USB hub I bought is one of those chinesium cheapos from AliExpress and sure it was cheap! the cable was not shielded neither the "shells" for the USB connections. I corrected those two issues and the problem disappeared almost completely with a little tiny bit of noise still present and very weak and less frequent "heebee-jeebies", but they're still there. As I do not want to have all my measurements permanently disturbed with noise and weird movements, no matter how weak they are, I decided to take the hub off definitely. Besides, I have no intention to try other hubs and discover the hard way they all make the same problems.

Because of that I'm now reverting to Bode Plot via LAN with the aforementined problems.
Exactly what you would expect using 10x probes when input settings are set to high sensitivity levels.
Suggest you get some BNC to croc leads and use only 1x input attenuation when noise is a problem.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on September 19, 2023, 06:46:21 am
These NTP options might help:

  - "Sync" should force a re-synchronization with the NTP server.  You'd have to do this manually, but pushing a button is better then screwing around with the NTP server address

  - "Periodic Sync" on and "Interval" set to 1h should get you an automatic re-sync within an hour.  So if you can live with the time not being right for an hour...

It's too bad the shortest re-sync interval is 1h
None of those options worked. Of course the first thing I tried was "Sync" to no avail until I retyped in a new IP address as stated before. Something must be wrong in the NTP coding.


I certainly can't say that a hub from a respected vendor would solve your problems, but I do think there's a really good chance that a hub from a respected vendor would behave better than a 90 cent no name Aliexpress USB hub.
Quite possible. ASMOF the problem was greatly reduced once I solved some issues with the hub. I may get a better hub...  ::)

Exactly what you would expect using 10x probes when input settings are set to high sensitivity levels.
Suggest you get some BNC to croc leads and use only 1x input attenuation when noise is a problem.

Well, as I said previously, once I took the USB hub out of the equation the noise disappeared. It was not a problem with the probing procedure, it was indeed a problem with the hub. Besides, the signal I was probing was not that low: it was a 400mVpp sinusoidal wave directly from the SDG1062X.

But that is not the possible bug I mention. The bug is in the NTP coding once you change from WLAN to LAN then back to WLAN.



Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 19, 2023, 07:36:45 am
Exactly what you would expect using 10x probes when input settings are set to high sensitivity levels.
Suggest you get some BNC to croc leads and use only 1x input attenuation when noise is a problem.

Well, as I said previously, once I took the USB hub out of the equation the noise disappeared. It was not a problem with the probing procedure, it was indeed a problem with the hub. Besides, the signal I was probing was not that low: it was a 400mVpp sinusoidal wave directly from the SDG1062X.

But that is not the possible bug I mention. The bug is in the NTP coding once you change from WLAN to LAN then back to WLAN.
Interesting problem.
Have you tried placing the USB WiFi dongle into the front USB and have the USB hub on the rear USB and use only that for storage and the SDG tethering ?
That should give some physical separation between WiFi and the hub if there's interference between them.
BTW, is everything properly mains PE bonded ?

Meanwhile I'll see if I can replicate your findings......
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on September 19, 2023, 08:14:11 am
Interesting problem.
Have you tried placing the USB WiFi dongle into the front USB and have the USB hub on the rear USB and use only that for storage and the SDG tethering ?
That should give some physical separation between WiFi and the hub if there's interference between them.
No but I'm going to try just right now. I'll keep you posted.


BTW, is everything properly mains PE bonded ?
Sorry but I'm afraid I do not understand you... what's a "mains PE bond"  ::)

Both the scope and the AWG are connected to the same mains line with good earth connection.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 19, 2023, 08:32:18 am
Interesting problem.
Have you tried placing the USB WiFi dongle into the front USB and have the USB hub on the rear USB and use only that for storage and the SDG tethering ?
That should give some physical separation between WiFi and the hub if there's interference between them.
No but I'm going to try just right now. I'll keep you posted.


BTW, is everything properly mains PE bonded ?
Sorry but I'm afraid I do not understand you... what's a "mains PE bond"  ::)

Both the scope and the AWG are connected to the same mains line with good earth connection.
PE = Protective Earth.  ;)

Just done a Bode plot of nothing much and with WiFi USB dongle in the front USB and hub connected to rear USB with storage and SDG connected, no apparent Bode plot trace noise and no loss of the NTP server.....in fact the clock kept advancing after removing the TP Link USB dongle even while connecting to a USB powered wireless LAN which I can use on any instrument that's not able to drive the TP Link USB dongle.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on September 19, 2023, 09:17:45 am
Thanks a lot for your help, Tautech, but I'm afraid that either you didn't understand where the problem is or, more likely, I was not clear enough...  ::)

There are two problems here:

1- The NTP server is not reconnecting when I switch (via Utility menu) from WLAN to LAN and then to WLAN back again. My concern was not related to USB thethering with the SDG for Bode plots at all. My problem is that, as I cannot use USB connection with the SDG for the hub/noise issues, I'm forced to use LAN connection to the SDG and thus I need to switch from the usual WLAN operating state of the scope to LAN, preventing the NTP service to run when, once the Bode Plot operation is finished, I try to return to "business as usual" with WLAN engaged. That is where I think there's a possible bug.

2- My USB hub being crappy, which is not the problem I'm asking for, just presented here as an answer to Pope's request some posts above (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg5066842/#msg5066842). The noise problem is not when I'm using Bode Plot but always... the hub induces noise into the scope, although I've just discovered that it is not the only culprit. See later...


I have done what you sugested above and, yes, if I connect the (improved by me but crappy) hub to the back USB port and use it to connect both the SDG connection and the USB memory stick AND connect the WLAN adapter to the front USB port then the noise is gone. Good! but in that position the WLAN adapter fails a lot connecting to the router  |O 

I told some posts above that my router is in a different floor. My shop is in the basement and the router is in the first floor albeit just above from where my shop is. Unfortunately I experienced time ago that just plugging the WLAN adapter directly to either the front or back USB ports in the scope yielded to very weak WiFi connection and was continuously losing and regaining connection. As a solution I bought a USB cable extender to put the WLAN adapter in the upper shelf of my shop gaining a lot of WiFi signal. That is, the solution you presented is not valid for me because having an extender USB cable plugged in the front port is not very practical.

BUT... while fiddling with all these configurations I suspected from that very USB extender cable and, know what?... it is also not shielded, as it was the cable from the hub!... again the chinesium curse strikes me back! it is quite possible that buying a good quality USB extender cable will solve the noise problems I'm having  ::)

But stilll there's a possible bug with the NTP implementation in the scope!  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on September 19, 2023, 09:28:15 am
All good, I'll do some more tests with WLAN and LAN to see if I can see your problem.
Until now when NTP fails to link with the NTP server, pressing Sync always fixes that but I'll look for an issue with this and WLAN and LAN.
Get some  :popcorn: while waiting as it's already late here.  :=\
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on September 19, 2023, 09:42:29 am
Until now when NTP fails to link with the NTP server, pressing Sync always fixes that but I'll look for an issue with this and WLAN and LAN.
Yes, that has also been brought up here before (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg5068027/#msg5068027). After the WLAN-LAN-WLAN dance "Sync" does not work at all!... at least for me  :(


Get some  :popcorn: while waiting as it's already late here.  :=\
Don't worry!  ;D   You have always been the most supportive!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: blurpy on September 23, 2023, 01:51:14 pm
Google "usb3 interference". It's a pretty common issue to get bad reception if you place a USB 3 hub near a wireless dongle for mouse/keyboards or wifi access points. So not surprising if you see some of that interference in signals if it's near the scope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on September 23, 2023, 03:40:56 pm
Well, my hub is USB 2.0  ::)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: blurpy on September 23, 2023, 03:53:57 pm
Well, my hub is USB 2.0  ::)
Guess it's just really bad then ;D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on September 23, 2023, 04:18:32 pm
yep!  ;D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: mwb1100 on September 23, 2023, 10:02:50 pm
Here's my experience with the SDS1104X-E Software version: 6.1.37R8 and Uboot-OS version: 8.3

1) change network from WiFi to LAN (note: I don't have a wired Ethernet attached to the scope)
2) manually reset the date/time to 1 Jan 1970-something
3) switch Net interface back to WLAN; it automatically reconnects to the Access Point (as I'd expect)
4) Go into "Date/Time"/"NTP" and press "Sync"

The date/time is synchronized.

If I don't press "Sync" the date/time gets synchronized after the "Periodic Sync" interval expires.

Ideally, needing to manually sync NTP or wait for the Periodic Sync interval to expire shouldn't be necessary.  If Siglent is still working SDS1000X-E firmware, I'd suggest the following improvement be considered:

  - whenever the scope goes from a disconnected to connected state (whether LAN or Wifi), it should automatically Sync NTP if "Power On Sync" or "Periodic Sync" is on

What would be the most effective way to ask for this? (I'm hoping it's: "Tell Rob")
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: t1d on November 15, 2023, 11:18:39 pm
I have a 1204X-E. The Reference Trace Color is dark blue and I am having trouble seeing it. Is there anyway to make it bright red? I searched the manual, google and this forum, but I did not find the answer. Maybe I do not know the proper search term? Thank you for your help.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Martin72 on November 15, 2023, 11:30:24 pm
Hi,
Only a few scopes on the market have the option of changing the colors.
Unfortunately, the 1204 is not one of them, as far as I know.
(SDS2k+ and higher have this option).
I think the color selection is one of the most useful features of all, perhaps siglent should be asked again whether they can also implement this for the smaller model.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: t1d on November 16, 2023, 12:03:45 am
Hi,
Only a few scopes on the market have the option of changing the colors.
Unfortunately, the 1204 is not one of them, as far as I know.
(SDS2k+ and higher have this option).
I think the color selection is one of the most useful features of all, perhaps siglent should be asked again whether they can also implement this for the smaller model.
Thank you, Martin.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Calambres on November 16, 2023, 08:49:26 am
I quote myself:
.../...
BUT, while fiddling with all these configurations I suspected from that very USB extender cable and, know what?... it is also not shielded, as it was the cable from the hub!... again the chinesium curse strikes me back! it is quite possible that buying a good quality USB extender cable will solve the noise problems I'm having  ::)

Well, I got a better quality and shielded USB extension cable and yes, the WLAN now connects with no issues albeit I still got some noise induced by the crappy USB huh. Less noise than before but still there. I need to address this problem but nowadays is not easy to get a good quality USB2 hub and we all know the problems with USB3 hubs and WLAN connections! ::)

But stilll there's a possible bug with the NTP implementation in the scope!  ;)
Yes, this is definitely a bug!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on November 16, 2023, 09:27:49 am
But stilll there's a possible bug with the NTP implementation in the scope!  ;)
Yes, this is definitely a bug!

Not really, IMO.  You cannot call anything you don't like a bug.

NTP is separate service from basic TCP/IP stack. NTP will refresh when it's time interval is due.
It uses TCP/IP routing and connectivity to server is transparent to it.
It does not know anything changed on TCP/IP level and don't care.

Would it be nice it would do that. Maybe. Maybe not.

What is real purpose of that?
You have a scope that is connected to LAN, and it got it's time from NTP.
Time is correct now.

You switch to WLAN.
It won't requery NTP server because it is already set and time interval for next update is not due.
It has nothing to do with how networks are being connected-disconnected. Clock in device (soft clock) is actually keeping time in meantime.

Did I understand correctly?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 16, 2023, 09:45:05 am
As member mwb1100 suggests:
whenever the scope goes from a disconnected to connected state (whether LAN or Wifi), it should automatically Sync NTP if "Power On Sync" or "Periodic Sync" is on

Is proposed for Siglent to consider.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on November 16, 2023, 10:14:20 am
As member mwb1100 suggests:
whenever the scope goes from a disconnected to connected state (whether LAN or Wifi), it should automatically Sync NTP if "Power On Sync" or "Periodic Sync" is on

Is proposed for Siglent to consider.

I'm not against it.
But it is not a bug. No NTP service does that. I'm not even defending Siglent scope here. It's just no NTP is supposed to do that. On any device.
It is not a bug.
NTP does not care about network. After initial synch (on boot) because it has not battery backed up clock, next refresh is when built in software clock accuracy is questionable because it has been running too long, and then we recheck with NTP server if there are corrections needed.

Actually, if device clock is any good, it is recommended not to synch NTP too often, because it introduces timing jitter...
Updates are not correlated to network config, but only to clock needs..

If you boot with network connected it will work normally. If you boot with network not connected, it will timeout on initial synch. Until next scheduled update, when it will update if network was connected in meantime. Were you can use manual update to speed up things.
If you need reliable NTP, provide reliable network.

There is no built in "option to enable" or "bug to fix".
What can be done is to make separate monitor service that will be aware that time is not set (NTP client connect failed, or synch failed), and would keep that status and be mindful of network connectivity.
But you can have Ethernet port or WIFI connection UP and still have no connectivity to Internet.
What to do then? How do we detect NTP servers are available for synch then?
Gets complicated quickly...

What I think could be useful would be a marker (clock background painted red or something) to user that NTP is set to synch and failed last time. So they know they have network problems and that clock might be in in "uncal" state of a sort..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 16, 2023, 02:37:22 pm
As member mwb1100 suggests:
whenever the scope goes from a disconnected to connected state (whether LAN or Wifi), it should automatically Sync NTP if "Power On Sync" or "Periodic Sync" is on

Is proposed for Siglent to consider.

I'm not against it.
But it is not a bug. No NTP service does that. I'm not even defending Siglent scope here. It's just no NTP is supposed to do that. On any device.
It is not a bug.
NTP does not care about network. After initial synch (on boot) because it has not battery backed up clock, next refresh is when built in software clock accuracy is questionable because it has been running too long, and then we recheck with NTP server if there are corrections needed.

Actually, if device clock is any good, it is recommended not to synch NTP too often, because it introduces timing jitter...
Updates are not correlated to network config, but only to clock needs..
Correct, not a bug but could be improved.
X-E do not have RTC so when we need it, we need it and it's reliable operation should be linked/latched to network connectivity status.
That is, when when we connect we have a network indicator which shows the OS is monitoring connectivity when NTP refresh could be linked to the network indication rather than need to rely on a NTP sync.

An NTP autosync tied to network connectivity indication will solve this issue automatically and almost instantly.
Those that have these know this issue.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: sylvandb on November 17, 2023, 05:00:03 am
As member mwb1100 suggests:
whenever the scope goes from a disconnected to connected state (whether LAN or Wifi), it should automatically Sync NTP if "Power On Sync" or "Periodic Sync" is on

Is proposed for Siglent to consider.

I'm not against it.
But it is not a bug. No NTP service does that. I'm not even defending Siglent scope here. It's just no NTP is supposed to do that. On any device.

Actually, that is incorrect.  The scope is using a variant of NTP known as Simple NTP or SNTP.  (The key difference is polling and directly setting time instead of the full NTP approach of synchronized, adaptive feedback loop keeping time in sync potentially as both a client and a server.)  Many network devices which obtain time using SNTP do indeed poll the NTP server when the network connection is started, and start their polling interval from that event. In those devices if the network disconnects then the NTP service will poll again immediately on reconnect whether or not the polling interval has lapsed.

A full NTP implementation actually creates a lot more network traffic than SNTP as the poll intervals for SNTP are typically multiple orders of magnitude longer than that for a full NTP implementation (often 1024 seconds max compared to hours or even a daily poll for SNTP).  This means that it is more important for a SNTP implementation to poll on connect since it might be a very long time before the interval expires compared to a few seconds for a full NTP implementation.  One of the primary reasons this has become best practice is the only time you know the network is available is when it connects.  In a few hours?  Maybe, maybe not.

How do I know this?  I have over 30 years of directly applicable standard definition and implementation experience, and currently work as a senior principal firmware engineer in this field.  All of the devices running firmware produced by my current employer poll immediately on connect, and so do the vast majority of network devices I've worked with from all the "smart" gadgets in my house to devices costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, at least when using SNTP.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: 2N3055 on November 17, 2023, 08:17:28 am
As member mwb1100 suggests:
whenever the scope goes from a disconnected to connected state (whether LAN or Wifi), it should automatically Sync NTP if "Power On Sync" or "Periodic Sync" is on

Is proposed for Siglent to consider.

I'm not against it.
But it is not a bug. No NTP service does that. I'm not even defending Siglent scope here. It's just no NTP is supposed to do that. On any device.

Actually, that is incorrect.  The scope is using a variant of NTP known as Simple NTP or SNTP.  (The key difference is polling and directly setting time instead of the full NTP approach of synchronized, adaptive feedback loop keeping time in sync potentially as both a client and a server.)  Many network devices which obtain time using SNTP do indeed poll the NTP server when the network connection is started, and start their polling interval from that event. In those devices if the network disconnects then the NTP service will poll again immediately on reconnect whether or not the polling interval has lapsed.

A full NTP implementation actually creates a lot more network traffic than SNTP as the poll intervals for SNTP are typically multiple orders of magnitude longer than that for a full NTP implementation (often 1024 seconds max compared to hours or even a daily poll for SNTP).  This means that it is more important for a SNTP implementation to poll on connect since it might be a very long time before the interval expires compared to a few seconds for a full NTP implementation.  One of the primary reasons this has become best practice is the only time you know the network is available is when it connects.  In a few hours?  Maybe, maybe not.

How do I know this?  I have over 30 years of directly applicable standard definition and implementation experience, and currently work as a senior principal firmware engineer in this field.  All of the devices running firmware produced by my current employer poll immediately on connect, and so do the vast majority of network devices I've worked with from all the "smart" gadgets in my house to devices costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, at least when using SNTP.

Thank you for detailed explanation and a refresher course.
That was absolutely an error on my side. I meant to say SNTP. Which is by default what even desktop Linux will use (SNTP) when set as client, unless you install NTP.

SNTP is default time client on most devices out there AFAIK.

Full NTP implementation is used, as you said, when you need really accurate time, down to milliseconds.
Scope just uses time to timestamp files and screen captures. It is not in any way needed for scope function at all.
It was added to scope because it does not have a battery backed up RTC, so users don't have to set up clock manually.
On DHO800 Rigol solved that problem by removing clock completely...
Full NTP protocol is unnecessary in this case and a solution to a problem that does not exist.

In most networks I've seen people created a number of time servers running full NTP in whatever topology by stratas they did and all other devices were pretty much just SNTP clients  to keep servers/devices showing same file timestamps. Mostly for logging/auditing correlation purposes.
Mostly, whatever built in time synch is built in they enable it and job done. It is just not critical 99% of the time.
Rarely I've seen full NTP where they were processing things they wanted to be timestamped to better than second.

Again, thanks for the correction and all the best,
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on November 17, 2023, 08:24:51 am
It was added to scope because it does not have a battery backed up RTC, so users don't have to set up clock manually.
FYI
X-E models never had any clock until the Logging feature was added in a recent FW.
The addition of NTP gave timestamps for the logging and gave us a OSD clock and timestamps for file captures.
We can choose to not show the OSD and still have the benefits of timestamps for all other needs.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Willem2018 on December 01, 2023, 02:43:26 pm
Hello I am looking for an measurement tool on my Siglent SDS1104X-E  to automatically count edges for a time interval between a specified start-point and end-point.
I can't find such an option. Is this possible or can it be implemented by Siglent?

Many thanks.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gridstop on December 09, 2023, 11:02:42 pm
Can anyone explain the weird jumps in channel skew (like hundreds of uS) when changing vertical gain on one channel on my SDS1104XE?

I was testing with a micsig differential probe and a regular passive probe (both 10X), monitoring a zero-crossing detector. At most vertical settings, the two line up perfectly (and as expected), since it's a bidirectional optoisolator, the off pulse is neatly centered around the zero crossing. But when I was zooming in on the AC signal to get a nice vertical line to measure from, I noticed in the range from 100mV to 1V per division, the zero crossing jumps outside of the pulse (pulse width is about 500uS, so the error is >250uS, so it's not normal channel skew). Above 1V/div on the AC signal and below 100mV/div on the AC signal, they line up perfectly. At the 1V<->2V transition there is a relay click that coincides with the error jump but nothing audible happens at 50mV<->100mV where it jumps back to centered.

Is this just some weird group delay thing in the frontend of the channel? How on earth am I supposed to know when this is happening? It doesn't appear correctable since the channel skew tops out way below this error, at least at the time bases of interest when measuring.

EDIT: I removed the micsig from the equation and took some screenshots. Schematic is as simple as it gets. The screenshots show what's seen at 2V/div and 1V/div (nothing else changes, taken seconds apart) on channel 2, which is directly showing the AC from the transformer going to the opto. The last pic shows what happens if you move the Ch 2 probe directly across the diodes (other side of the 1K resistor), the weird shift is totally gone, and it's consistent across all voltage ranges.
 

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on December 10, 2023, 10:27:52 am
Hello I am looking for an measurement tool on my Siglent SDS1104X-E  to automatically count edges for a time interval between a specified start-point and end-point.
I can't find such an option. Is this possible or can it be implemented by Siglent?
Unfortunately, the SDS1000X-E series DSOs are somewhat limited when it comes to math and measurements. They support gated measurements, but cannot count edges. SDS2000X Plus and above offer more in this regard and count edges and pulses. The same goes for the upcoming SDS800X HD and SDS1000X HD.

I'm not sure Siglent will be putting much effort to add new features to a six year old product, yet it never hurts to place a wish, which I've done right now...

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on December 10, 2023, 10:46:51 am
Can anyone explain the weird jumps in channel skew (like hundreds of uS) when changing vertical gain on one channel on my SDS1104XE?
Yes. It's just input stage overloading.

Other than ancient low bandwidth oscilloscopes, most modern instruments utilize a split path input buffer. When overloaded, the LF path will cleanly clip, but the HF path differentiates and generates a DC component, which causes weird signal distortions and level shifts.

It's a basic rule for DSOs that you cannot trust any results as soon as the amplitude of a signal exceeds the screen borders.
As long as the input signal never exceeds +/-1 V (taking the vertical offset into account!), there shouldn't be too much of a problem, even when you view it at 1 mV/div vertical gain. But any input signal outside that window will definitely cause problems (as long as you don't view it at a proper vertical setting where no part of the signal is outside the visible screen area).

Solution: use a probe with more attenuation, e.g. 100x instead of 10x, to keep the input signal within that magical +/-1 V range.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Gridstop on December 10, 2023, 04:45:32 pm
Thanks! You're right of course. I was thinking just in terms of gain/scaling, not the absolute input limit when it shifts to the lower voltage range. Switching the micsig to 100x fixed the problem right away and I can still turn up the gain to get a nice vertical line to measure off of.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: Performa01 on January 07, 2024, 07:25:04 am
Hello I am looking for an measurement tool on my Siglent SDS1104X-E  to automatically count edges for a time interval between a specified start-point and end-point.
I can't find such an option. Is this possible or can it be implemented by Siglent?
Yes ... we'll very likely get that with the next firmware update.

Even though the SDS1000X-E series will soon be obsolete because of the new SDS800X HD (which of course has the much more complete set of measurements inherited from its bigger siblings, including pulse and edge count), we will still get some maintainance for the X-E series.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: pope on January 07, 2024, 11:25:53 am
we will still get some maintainance for the X-E series.

That will be great considering how many of these scopes exist out there. A kind of win-win situation. After-sales support it's a big plus for both the user and the brand.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: CodeToInsanity on January 16, 2024, 08:03:47 am
Hello!

I have SDS1104X-E. SW: 6.1.37R10 and I want to measure audio (voltage) signal from a speaker and I have a differential probe for this. I also have working access over Ethernet, so for example 'lxi-tools' are working and I am able to send and receive SCPI commands. The main problem is that I want to log the signal and analyze the value later and I need to control recording remotely with a code. The recording maximum length would be three hours.

I have tried the sample-logger function which saves the values to the USB-device, but I haven't yet found a way to start sample-logger with SCPI commands. Is this possible?
I also have made a script "for-loop" that triggers the "C1:WF? DAT" command, but I have problems getting the timing correct here so I would not lose data, data overlapping would not a be a problem. I tried the "roll mode" and I manually trigger the command each 14*tdiv(0.5s for example, 14 is the number of squares in time-axle) and this seems to give me pretty good results.

How should I proceed with this problem? Sample rate does not need to be very high because audio signal is mostly 1000 Hz sine wave. Basically the ideal solution is where I don't need to touch the oscilloscope other than turn it on.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: orzel on February 11, 2024, 11:11:28 pm
I have this vague feeling it probably has been answered somewhere already, but i can't find the information : how does my sds1104x-e reports "Uboot-OS Version: 8.1", while the official siglent updates page mentions "SDS1xx4X-E Operating System -V3 (Only For 4-Channel models) (Release Date 01.05.23 )" ? The only "8.1" mentionned on the page are related to the sla1016 (which i don't own neither care).

I have a recent firmware (6.1.37r6) even if not the latest, and the other informations on the "about" page are unrelated to the OS.

Does "8.1" mean i have the "V1" ? Does "V1" even exist ?

The pdf included in the previously mentioned download (see attachment) mentions versions "1" "2" "3" without the "V". I'm not even sure what i have.

Bonus question: my hardware is old ("01-03"), and i understand i dont "need" version 3, but i can still install it ? I kinda guess 'yes', but I of course don't want to brick my scope because it's only intended for newer hardware revisions.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 11, 2024, 11:29:35 pm
I have this vague feeling it probably has been answered somewhere already, but i can't find the information : how does my sds1104x-e reports "Uboot-OS Version: 8.1", while the official siglent updates page mentions "SDS1xx4X-E Operating System -V3 (Only For 4-Channel models) (Release Date 01.05.23 )" ? The only "8.1" mentionned on the page are related to the sla1016 (which i don't own neither care).

I have a recent firmware (6.1.37r6) even if not the latest, and the other informations on the "about" page are unrelated to the OS.

Does "8.1" mean i have the "V1" ? Does "V1" even exist ?

The pdf included in the previously mentioned download (see attachment) mentions versions "1" "2" "3" without the "V". I'm not even sure what i have.

Bonus question: my hardware is old ("01-03"), and i understand i dont "need" version 3, but i can still install it ? I kinda guess 'yes', but I of course don't want to brick my scope because it's only intended for newer hardware revisions.
V1 was the very first OS now updated to V3 to support the later added featureset.
You can download V3 OS here:
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Oscilloscope/SDS1xx4X-E_EN.zip

To have/support all the latest features the latest R10 FW should be installed also:
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Oscilloscope/SDS1xx4X-E_V6.1.37R10_EN.zip

They are each different install processes, the OS update needs be unzipped and files placed in the root folder of a USB stick (FAT32 4k clusters) and will autoload at boot.
The FW OTOH is selected from any folder from your USB stick and told to run/recall.
Utility (P3 IIRC) > Upgrade and follow your nose.  ;)

When both are installed and after a min of 30mins run the SelfCal then you are fully updated and good to go.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: orzel on February 11, 2024, 11:59:22 pm
V1 was the very first OS now updated to V3 to support the later added featureset...

I know all of this. I have updated the firmware for sure, and i kinda recall also updating the OS. (but thanks for caring !)

My questions are really focused on "8.1". What is it ? What does it mean ? It seems so unrelated to the official documents / web pages.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 12, 2024, 12:16:53 am
V1 was the very first OS now updated to V3 to support the later added featureset...

I know all of this. I have updated the firmware for sure, and i kinda recall also updating the OS. (but thanks for caring !)

My questions are really focused on "8.1". What is it ? What does it mean ? It seems so unrelated to the official documents / web pages.
As I recall the 8 signifies the product line or maybe UI type and 1 is the OS version.
Not all get 8.3 displayed after installing with some displaying 8.2 but V3 OS can be confirmed installed correctly if you have the Logging or NTP feature working correctly.

I've done many OS installs prior to dispatch without issue.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: orzel on February 12, 2024, 12:28:34 am
As I recall the 8 signifies the product line or maybe UI type and 1 is the OS version.
Not all get 8.3 displayed after installing with some displaying 8.2 but V3 OS can be confirmed installed correctly if you have the Logging or NTP feature working correctly.

Ok, so it's really messy, no wonder i was lost. Thanks for clarifying somehow !
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: tautech on February 12, 2024, 12:39:55 am
As I recall the 8 signifies the product line or maybe UI type and 1 is the OS version.
Not all get 8.3 displayed after installing with some displaying 8.2 but V3 OS can be confirmed installed correctly if you have the Logging or NTP feature working correctly.

Ok, so it's really messy, no wonder i was lost. Thanks for clarifying somehow !
Not exactly sure why this is but I suspect production was installing V2 OS and labelling it as the very early V1.
Some I installed only displayed V2 however the NTP feature worked as it should....we enter the NZ NTP server URL before dispatch too.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: rf-loop on February 12, 2024, 04:50:36 am
There have been now 4 versions. V0, V1, V2 and now V3
Afaik V3 do not add anything (visible to user) over V2 in HW version below 09.

V3 is for support some changes on hardware (hardware version 09-xx)

It is also told in OS revision history: If your HW version is below 09-xx  you do not need update to V3

Bit difficult to understand why peoples try update to V3 if they have HW version below 09-xx

With other words:  If your HW version is below 09-xx) do not update to V3. (If you still try, nothing happens but you waste time - remember that it is a non-renewable resource at the personal level)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes
Post by: orzel on February 16, 2024, 03:06:18 pm
With other words:  If your HW version is below 09-xx) do not update to V3. (If you still try, nothing happens but you waste time - remember that it is a non-renewable resource at the personal level)

This is crystal clear from the update document. Still people from v0 or v1 will probably want to update to the latest version, and wont waste more time doing so.

And it's really fast anyway, worth few minutes including download, putting on usb key and reboot of scope.