Author Topic: Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes  (Read 161513 times)

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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #225 on: November 23, 2017, 01:21:19 pm »
Hello,

For anyone who knows that Rigol can be hacked he can find the price Siglent 1104X-E and 1204X-E high, but for those who do not know that Rigol can be hacked then for him the price Siglent is correct.
One must think before saying that 1104X-E and 1204X-E Siglent is expensive!
As for hacker Siglent 1104X-E in 1204X-E, you will have to wait a long time if the 2 models are different internally!

In my opinion.
Diabolo
If it were a regular consumer product like a mobile phone, sure. However, an oscilloscope is generally used by people who tinker with equipment one way or another. Moreover, the popularity of the DS1054Z can in no small part be attributed to the possibility of hacking it into a better model. Taking all this into account, it wouldn't be really correct to look at it as if the hack doesn't exist.
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #226 on: November 23, 2017, 05:39:16 pm »
The 100 MHz version is listed as a two channel version, though.

At these prices I guarantee you it's not going to be a DS1054Z killer. The 100 MHz version is over 25% more expensive than an easily upgraded DS1054Z

yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes
but if you really NEED the 100 MHz you'd know you WANT to have the 1 GS/s per channel in 2 channel modes or 500 MS/s in 4 channel mode
the decoder that doesn't use data from screen buffer to decode
the possibility to attach an AWG in the future, which can work with the scope
and maybe you want to look at canbus too?

if you want to put in terms of 25% more money, you get a scope that's 100% better when used at its fullest.
500MS/s vs 250MS/s per channel. that's 100% more.
14Mpts vs 6 Mpts per channel. that's more than 100% more
also CAN/LIN instead of the usuals only, call it whatever percent more
without even mentioning the rest of the wall of text..
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #227 on: November 23, 2017, 07:45:10 pm »
yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes
but if you really NEED the 100 MHz you'd know you WANT to have the 1 GS/s per channel in 2 channel modes or 500 MS/s in 4 channel mode
the decoder that doesn't use data from screen buffer to decode
the possibility to attach an AWG in the future, which can work with the scope
and maybe you want to look at canbus too?

if you want to put in terms of 25% more money, you get a scope that's 100% better when used at its fullest.
500MS/s vs 250MS/s per channel. that's 100% more.
14Mpts vs 6 Mpts per channel. that's more than 100% more
also CAN/LIN instead of the usuals only, call it whatever percent more
without even mentioning the rest of the wall of text..
If we're going to be honest, very few people actually need those 100 MHz, let alone 200 MHz capabilities. If you absolutely needed those, you'd likely be looking at a different class of oscilloscopes. This is about an entry level oscilloscope for entry level people, or more advanced people with relatively simple needs. You can cram all the features in the world in there, the question is whether this specific group will care enough about them to lay out another $100, or even close to $450. Four channel scope versus four channel scope. Screen buffer? What's that?

If this thing would cost a little less, or the 200 MHz version would be more affordable, it would be much more of an open and shut case. They're not making it easy for people to side with the Siglent.
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #228 on: November 23, 2017, 07:55:52 pm »
not really, your typical MCU GPIO has a sufficienly fast risetime that can cause signal integrity problems if you want to use higher speed SPI peripherals for example.
your average hobbyist want to play with audio dacs, with canbus and other things that you may find advanced but really aren't, just need proper tools and understanding
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #229 on: November 23, 2017, 08:20:07 pm »
if you want to put in terms of 25% more money, you get a scope that's 100% better when used at its fullest.

Only to you.

Most of that "wall of text" is just that, a wall of text. Gobbledygook to most of the hobby world.

 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #230 on: November 23, 2017, 08:25:28 pm »
Only to you.

Most of that "wall of text" is just that, a wall of text. Gobbledygook to most of the hobby world.
One thing hobbyists understand well is that larger numbers are better. However, the 200 MHz model so much more expensive, that they'll start wondering whether 200 MHz is twice as good as 100 Mhz.
 

Offline stj

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #231 on: November 23, 2017, 08:57:55 pm »
something not mentioned, at that price it also has to start competing with used pro-gear on ebay.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #232 on: November 23, 2017, 09:24:24 pm »
not really, your typical MCU GPIO has a sufficienly fast risetime that can cause signal integrity problems if you want to use higher speed SPI peripherals for example.
That doesn't matter. As long as the frequency you are looking at doesn't exceed the bandwidth limitations of the scope then you will get a signal into the oscilloscope you can use for decoding. If you want to look at signal integrity issues you'll probably need a >500MHz scope and probes which don't load the signals too much otherwise you won't get a meaningfull measurement.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Hydron

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #233 on: November 23, 2017, 10:46:14 pm »
I'll be happy if it doesn't do this if you have 3+ channels enabled and you feed it something with fast edges:

For reference, the same thing on a faster tek scope, with 150MHz limit on for as similar a bandwidth as I can easily manage (also averaging, but this only changed the trace noise):

« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 10:48:11 pm by Hydron »
 

Offline borjam

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #234 on: November 23, 2017, 10:54:33 pm »
The Rigol will reduce the sampling rate whenever you activate more channels. It's a well known limitation.

In your sceeenshots it's sampling at only 250 MSa/s and capturing just 30 points. With so little information, the Sin(x)/x interpolation does that.

Switch the display mode to "dots" instead of "vectors" and you'll see what the A/D converter is actually sampling.

The Tek is sampling at 5 Gsa/s according to the datasheet. And its seems it's really _per channel_.

 

Offline Hydron

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #235 on: November 23, 2017, 11:09:34 pm »
I understand all this, I was just pointing out the limitation of the cheapest option, and that signal integrity can be an issue due to the compromises made.
That said, I'm surprised just how poorly it deals with the Sin(x)/x interpolation when running close to nyquist (it also looks nearly as bad with Sin(x)/x off, including the pre-shoot etc).
I would be very interested to see a similar test made on the Siglent 200MHz (it may have already been done somewhere in another thread) - at 200MHz/500MSa/s it's running at the same BW/sample rate ratio as the rigol is at 100MHz/250MSa/s.

The tek is indeed running at 5Gsa/s per channel - I included the reference to show that the source was actually nice and square to begin with. I also know that it's not the 50R feedthrough causing issues, as I tested it on the tek running in 1M mode.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 11:12:24 pm by Hydron »
 

Offline borjam

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #236 on: November 23, 2017, 11:12:23 pm »
I understand all this, I was just pointing out the limitation of the cheapest option, and that signal integrity can be an issue due to the compromises made.
That said, I'm surprised just how poorly it deals with the Sin(x)/x interpolation when running close to nyquist. I would be very interested to see a similar test made on the Siglent 200MHz (it may have already been done somewhere in another thread) - at 200MHz/500MSa/s it's running at the same BW/sample rate ratio at the rigol at 100MHz/250MSa/s.
I own both, and Leo Bodnar's pulse generator. I'll capture some screenshots this evening if I have time.

Quote
The tek is indeed running at 5Gsa/s per channel - I included the reference to show that the source was actually nice and square to begin with. I also know that it's not the 50R feedthrough causing issues, as I tested it on the tek running in 1M mode.
But in this case it's a limitation due to the sampling rate. Switch to "dots" and you'll see the limited view the Rigol must deal with.

 

Offline Hydron

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #237 on: November 23, 2017, 11:15:10 pm »
My screenshots were done with Leo's generator also - it's a fun and handy bit of kit to have around.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #238 on: November 24, 2017, 12:25:48 am »
I understand all this, I was just pointing out the limitation of the cheapest option, and that signal integrity can be an issue due to the compromises made.

Sure, but have you compared that to other devices in this price range? It's not a valid criticism of the Rigol unless you do a side-by-side comparison with others.

I'm surprised just how poorly it deals with the Sin(x)/x interpolation when running close to nyquist (it also looks nearly as bad with Sin(x)/x off, including the pre-shoot etc).

Sin(x)/x isn't magic, it's a theoretical thing that only works perfectly if you apply it to every sample in the entire waveform (which obviously no oscilloscope can do).

What you see on the Rigol isn't a bug, it's exactly what the math says will happen if you only apply Sin(x)/x to a few samples on either side of the pixel of interest.

Assuming the Siglent will be better than this might backfire on you. The 200MHz model has the exact same ratio of samples to bandwidth as the Rigol.

...if you have 3+ channels enabled

Another red herring. With more channels enabled the Rigol reduces the sample rate so this is expected behavior, predicted by the math.

 

Offline Hydron

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #239 on: November 24, 2017, 01:43:02 am »
What you see on the Rigol isn't a bug, it's exactly what the math says will happen if you only apply Sin(x)/x to a few samples on either side of the pixel of interest.

Assuming the Siglent will be better than this might backfire on you. The 200MHz model has the exact same ratio of samples to bandwidth as the Rigol.
I did say that it would be interesting to see how the Siglent does at the same ratio - this isn't exactly assuming it's better! It sounds like borjam will be doing this test under the same conditions as I did with the Rigol, which is excellent (and might help with the choice between the 100MHz and 200MHz models).
I understand that Sin(x)/x artifacts are unavoidable due to the sample rate/bandwidth ratio, rather than being a Rigol issue, but was surprised at just how bad they were when I did the test (and that some pre-shoot remained even after turning it off).
 
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #240 on: November 24, 2017, 01:56:39 am »
I understand all this, I was just pointing out the limitation of the cheapest option, and that signal integrity can be an issue due to the compromises made.

Sure, but have you compared that to other devices in this price range? It's not a valid criticism of the Rigol unless you do a side-by-side comparison with others.

I'm surprised just how poorly it deals with the Sin(x)/x interpolation when running close to nyquist (it also looks nearly as bad with Sin(x)/x off, including the pre-shoot etc).

Sin(x)/x isn't magic, it's a theoretical thing that only works perfectly if you apply it to every sample in the entire waveform (which obviously no oscilloscope can do).

What you see on the Rigol isn't a bug, it's exactly what the math says will happen if you only apply Sin(x)/x to a few samples on either side of the pixel of interest.

Assuming the Siglent will be better than this might backfire on you. The 200MHz model has the exact same ratio of samples to bandwidth as the Rigol.

...if you have 3+ channels enabled

Another red herring. With more channels enabled the Rigol reduces the sample rate so this is expected behavior, predicted by the math.

In Rigol it is bug or better say, design error when they implement Sinc filter.
Violating simpliest rule: Draw via real sampled points.
But no, Riglol flush these to garbage.  They have started this math error many years ago first with DS1052E and never corrected.

It was proofed with DS1052E and data can still find from blog history, perhaps.
They repeat same kind of bug again with DS1054Z. 

One example can find here.

Rigol do not listen anybody. Perhaps they think "who cares" because sales is ok. They care sales, it same if they sell chickens ( I wonder why they do not, perhaps profit is even better) or osciolloscopes. Who cares if sales is ok.

Personally I have not seen this kind of fake in any other oscilloscope, never and I have really some experience.  Take Tek, take what ever Keysight - Agilent - HP, LeCroy,  take what ever chinese Owon, chinese GoodWill, or as far as I know what ever other <long list>  than Rigol you can not find this bug.

One nice bug in Rigol is junk mask test. Speed depends test result. Oh well, then you write down how many times test pass and fail (you read these counters).  Then you show your statistics and first who know this bug can shoot down your statistics to garbage. Also this is small thing but... again. This is test and measurement equipment. Not entertainment TV (or is it - just for fun play).

But because I am biased (1% *), because my side hobby is also selling things and not only doing real work and hobby with electronics I do not add more things here.

*) My main interest is hobby and work. only < 1% income have any relation with selling Siglent or what ever (exept when I sell myself). But, yes I'm biased, but owners who hate or fall in love with some equipments they are of course totally free from any kind of bias (buuhh...) - as can see here..  ;)

« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 02:01:00 am by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #241 on: November 24, 2017, 02:23:09 am »
Come on guys, can we for once have a low budget scope thread without the same discussion yet again? We know how you feel, we don't need to hear it again.
 
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Offline simone.pignatti

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #242 on: November 24, 2017, 03:34:53 am »
Exactly! We have a limited number of 100Mhz. Write me in PM if you are interested so we can give priority to this forum.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 03:41:34 am by simone.pignatti »
Technical Support
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #243 on: November 24, 2017, 04:23:05 am »
What you see on the Rigol isn't a bug, it's exactly what the math says will happen if you only apply Sin(x)/x to a few samples on either side of the pixel of interest.
AFAIK other people have already proven that the way sin(x)/x interpolation is implemented on the DS1054Z is wrong and thus makes a signal look worse than it should be.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #244 on: November 24, 2017, 05:03:24 am »
What you see on the Rigol isn't a bug, it's exactly what the math says will happen if you only apply Sin(x)/x to a few samples on either side of the pixel of interest.
AFAIK other people have already proven that the way sin(x)/x interpolation is implemented on the DS1054Z is wrong and thus makes a signal look worse than it should be.

Yes, but that's not really the question. We know you love to bash Rigol, etc., but the real question is if any of the others are better, right?

I'll start you off with the GW Instek 1000B. This is an oscilloscope which is often held up as a beacon of correctness around here but guess what?



« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 05:06:14 am by Fungus »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #245 on: November 24, 2017, 05:16:46 am »
What you see on the Rigol isn't a bug, it's exactly what the math says will happen if you only apply Sin(x)/x to a few samples on either side of the pixel of interest.
AFAIK other people have already proven that the way sin(x)/x interpolation is implemented on the DS1054Z is wrong and thus makes a signal look worse than it should be.
Yes, but that's not really the question.  question is if any of the others are better, right?
Ofcourse the other ones are better! sin(x)/x is the industry standard method to do signal reconstruction on digital oscilloscopes for decades. It is well documented so there is absolutely no reason to do it wrong. I don't know any DSO which does sin(x)/x wrong except for the DS1054Z.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #246 on: November 24, 2017, 05:47:49 am »
Ofcourse the other ones are better! sin(x)/x is the industry standard method to do signal reconstruction on digital oscilloscopes for decades. It is well documented so there is absolutely no reason to do it wrong.

Well that proves it then! Nobody else could possibly fail so long as it's written down somewhere!!

I don't know any DSO which does sin(x)/x wrong except for the DS1054Z.

Except... it doesn't really do it wrong. That's just a thing in Rigol hater's imaginations.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-weird-signal-level-problem/msg563621/#msg563621

Sin(x)/x works perfectly on the the DS1054Z when it's turned on. The signal only aliases when you turn it off.

Question: What sane person would turn it off? The whole point is to see reconstructed signals on screen.  :-//
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #247 on: November 24, 2017, 06:02:45 am »
Ofcourse the other ones are better! sin(x)/x is the industry standard method to do signal reconstruction on digital oscilloscopes for decades. It is well documented so there is absolutely no reason to do it wrong.
Well that proves it then! Nobody else could possibly fail so long as it's written down somewhere!!
I don't know any DSO which does sin(x)/x wrong except for the DS1054Z.
Except... it doesn't really do it wrong. That's just a thing in Rigol hater's imaginations.
Look at the image Hydron posted earlier to see where you are wrong. That square wave shouldn't look like that at all. On the DS1054Z it looks like it has a serious amount of jitter which just isn't there. Look at a 40MHz square wave (with less than 60ps rise/fall times) which is equally far from the Nyquist frequency on a 200MHz 1Gs/s scope compared to the square wave Hydron shows on a DS1054Z:


BTW emphasizing on Rigol haters isn't going to make your point any stronger (quite the opposite). The facts are the facts and everyone has to make their own decission on whether they buy something or not.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 06:20:27 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Hydron

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #248 on: November 24, 2017, 06:42:15 am »
I suspect it is a combination of some >nyquist frequencies getting through the filter, and something odd going on with the reconstruction, though I don't have proof of the latter. That is why I am interested in how the Siglent does when running at 200MHz & 500MSa/s - for all I know it could have similar behavior!

Anyway, I was mainly trying to point out why the premium for the SDS1104X-E over the DS1054Z might be worth it even at 100MHz. Some will be fine with the cheaper Rigol; others will get better value going for something else. Sorry for not doing it more carefully - I think these cheap, accessible tools are great and while I pointed out a limitation in one, it was intended to be in the context of things to consider in making a purchasing decision, not as an attack!
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS1204X-E released for domestic markets in China
« Reply #249 on: November 24, 2017, 06:50:28 am »
I suspect it is a combination of some >nyquist frequencies getting through the filter, and something odd going on with the reconstruction, though I don't have proof of the latter. That is why I am interested in how the Siglent does when running at 200MHz & 500MSa/s - for all I know it could have similar behavior!

Time will tell.

Anyway, I was mainly trying to point out why the premium for the SDS1104X-E over the DS1054Z might be worth it even at 100MHz.

Sure.

In other news: Some people need to fit five bales of hay in the back of their car so a Ford Fiesta isn't suitable for them.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 07:09:22 am by Fungus »
 


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