Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes

[graybeard]

[HendriXML]

For those who wish to parse the response of the WF? ALL query, I've found this document, especially the Waveform template section to be very useful.

https://wiki.epfl.ch/carplat/documents/PDF/LC6800A_WM-RCM-E_Rev_D.pdf

With this documentation it was not to hard to get VOffset, VFactor data etc. from the response, instead of having to query them separately.

Also there're some fields with sizes in them, which can be used to get to the waveform data in a robuust way. Also knowing how many bits (1 of 2 bytes) the samples are. I don't think hires and averaging samples can be fetched with extra bits, but if it could these fields would be vital.

I still have the issue that WFSU NP,xx limits the number of point but results in having a single repeating value in the waveform data 

Also would it be nice if segments could be queried separately using WFSU SN,xx. Now I'm using a different approach, which works, but I'm essentially setting gui stuff, with (usable) side effects.

I still have the issue that WFSU NP,xx limits the number of point but results in having a single repeating value in the waveform data 

This seems to be solved 

[tautech]

Hi,
Just sharing some observation.
Plugged USB stick 16GB, works great, saving images, recognized after soft power-down, all ok, but,
after blackout (during standby - soft power down) usb still plugged in but after boot usb did not recognized.
After reboot without usb stick, plugging again usb all ok. Tested two times - unplugging from power in stand by mode.
Like scope didn't like being unplugged from power with usb plugged in.

This somewhat mirrors my experiences in that a hard power OFF has the DSO not saving settings.
They much prefer a soft power OFF so to shut down gracefully and remember previous settings.

BTW, whenever you report some bug or issue please include the firmware version you have installed.
Thanks. 

[Rerouter]

Thank you Siglent, You build in a feature requests and don't even make note of it.. 

There was a uprising amount of stuff added, its about 3MB extra on the main application alone.

We have all new Bode Plot SCPI commands 

BODE:SW BODE:SWITCH Query / Command
BODE:AWG Query / Command
BODE:STIM BODE:STIMULUS Command
BODE:SWP BODE:SWEEP Command
BODE:SWP:EDIT BODE:SWEEP:EDIT Command
BODE:DUT Command
BODE:OPER BODE:OPERATE Command
BODE:DIS:APM BODE:DISPLAY:APM Command
BODE:DIS:PHA BODE:DISPLAY:PHA Command
BODE:DIS:ASET BODE:DISPLAY:ASET Command
BODE:DIS:CRS BODE:DISPLAY:CRS Command
BODE:DATA Command

Some new probe commands that hint at digital probes
C1:POffs Command / Query   
C1:PDAC Command / Query
C1:PDelta Command / Query                     
C1:PIntc C1:PIntercept Command / Query
C1:PCali C1:ProbeCalibrate Command / Query
C1:PInfo C1:ProbeInfo Command / Query
C1:ProbeSN 
C1:PType C1:ProbeType
C1:PRes C1:ProbeRes
C1:PCap C1:ProbeCap
C1:PBW C1:ProbeBW
C1:PGain C1:ProbeGain

And just way too much new stuff around decoders and triggering for me to dig through tonight, its about 4 pages worth of commands, more or less breaking out every available settings, Good work devs,

[JPortici]

Some new probe commands that hint at digital probes

probably this is for the 5000X and its active probe interface?

[Rerouter]

Quite likely, still they are valid commands, even if they don't end up being used.

[Performa01]

What you're seeing is probably the beauty of a common software platform. Some new features are prototyped on the entry level machine and then make their way into the higher class instruments like the midrange SDS5000X. The software modules require a well defined interface, so they can be easily ported to a touch UI instrument and this also makes it easy to add the corresponding SCPI commands.

Both the new FFT features  as well as the new Bode Plot II application will make it into the SDS5000X, but we get the first implementation in the entry level SDS1004X-E.

FFT:
- better structured UI
- selectable FFT length for easier setup without the need to change the max. record length in the Acquire menu
- up to 8 markers
- configurable search for peaks and harmonics
- table view for the search results

There are still some minor issues that will be sorted with the next update.

Bode Plot II:
- Improved accuracy
- Smoothed traces for better visual appearance
- Dynamic range at least 110dB
- New vari-level plot (you can define a table of frequency/amplitude pairs for the sweep profile)

This is still not complete, some important features are still missing and visual presentation needs further improvement, but all these topics made it on Siglent's to-do list already

Attached are example screenshots for both new modules.

[graybeard]

My wish, besides fixing the lack of trigger reference error in the CSV data, for a future firmware update for the SDS1104X-E is an addition to the XY mode.  I would like to see an XYZ mode in which channel 3 or 4 could be used to vary the intensity of the trace.  This way it could mimic the functions of analog scope in the ability to vary intensity and blank the display, and also be used to mimic and analog monitor fixing older CRT based gear.

[Performa01]

My wish, besides fixing the lack of trigger reference error in the CSV data, for a future firmware update for the SDS1104X-E is an addition to the XY mode.  I would like to see an XYZ mode in which channel 3 or 4 could be used to vary the intensity of the trace.  This way it could mimic the functions of analog scope in the ability to vary intensity and blank the display, and also be used to mimic and analog monitor fixing older CRT based gear.

Well, we've got this on the todo list for the midrange model SDS5000X, and I think once we've got that, it could eventually trickle down to some other models as well. I will certainly recommend this! Or maybe this will be another instance of the reverse direction and we get it on the SDS1004X-E first - who knows?

Btw, the CSV data export issue will be fixed with the next update.

[starlight_tools]

Lead me not into temptation, just point the way and I'll find it myself! 

Dang nabbit you guys you pointed the way and kicked me over the edge and even with all the nay sayers I still ordered one of these critters SDS1104X-E.  Due in 2 to 4 days.

This all started when I was offered a Rigol DS1102E from one of my clients that was barely out of the box when her husband passed away.  But it is only two channel!  From there I looked at the Rigol 1054Z but the Siglent SDS1104X-E was only $23 dollars more.

I have been looking for a 4 channel scope for quite awhile.  Most of what I need the scope for is three phase power work, testing RPC's (Rotary Phase Converters), VFD's (Varible Frequency Drives)
 etc so I need the ability to be able to show three phases on the screen at the same time to compare them.

Still doing my homework as to what other probes I will need besides the stock probes.

Walter Townsend, TTDr

[tautech]

Lead me not into temptation, just point the way and I'll find it myself! 

Dang nabbit you guys you pointed the way and kicked me over the edge and even with all the nay sayers I still ordered one of these critters SDS1104X-E.  Due in 2 to 4 days.

This all started when I was offered a Rigol DS1102E from one of my clients that was barely out of the box when her husband passed away.  But it is only two channel!  From there I looked at the Rigol 1054Z but the Siglent SDS1104X-E was only $23 dollars more.

I have been looking for a 4 channel scope for quite awhile.  Most of what I need the scope for is three phase power work, testing RPC's (Rotary Phase Converters), VFD's (Varible Frequency Drives)
 etc so I need the ability to be able to show three phases on the screen at the same time to compare them.

Still doing my homework as to what other probes I will need besides the stock probes.

Walter Townsend, TTDr

While the stock probes are rated to 600V @ 10x it would be wise to get some fixed 100x probes not only for their higher voltage rating but also the additional protection they offer the user and the scope.
At the sort of frequencies you'd encounter the cheap ones from eBay or Aliexpress would be fine.


This of course presumes you can probe with a common reference point (mains ground) for all your work however when you can't either 2 units of Siglents 2ch ISFE or a set of differential probes are the preferred and safe solutions.
https://www.siglentamerica.com/accessory/isolated-channel-optional-accessories%EF%BC%88isfe%EF%BC%89/
https://store.siglentamerica.com/product/isfe-isolated-front-end/

One thing I can't confirm as I haven't checked is if 2 ISFE units will mount side by side onto the 4 BNC inputs and you'd need to check with one of our tech support people to confirm they do.

[starlight_tools]

Thanks tautech, both 100X probes and differentials are on my list.  Would be nice to know if the isfe probes can be used to isolate all four channels.  Case in point 3 phase Delta Configuration where there is no common ground, as opposed to Wye or Star configuration where there is a common ground point.

Walter Townsend, TTDr

[tautech]

Would be nice to know if the isfe probes can be used to isolate all four channels.  Case in point 3 phase Delta Configuration where there is no common ground, as opposed to Wye or Star configuration where there is a common ground point.

Walter Townsend, TTDr

Popped that question to tech support for you/us.
Should have the answer in a few hours.

[plurn]

...
One thing I can't confirm as I haven't checked is if 2 ISFE units will mount side by side onto the 4 BNC inputs and you'd need to check with one of our tech support people to confirm they do.

Looks too wide to connect two units directly side by side. I wonder if they could be attached with very short coax cables with appropriate bnc connectors on each end without hurting performance.

edit: just realised one of them could be connected upside down so maybe they would fit?

https://www.siglent.eu/isfe-siglent-isolated-front-end-module.html

[tautech]

...
One thing I can't confirm as I haven't checked is if 2 ISFE units will mount side by side onto the 4 BNC inputs and you'd need to check with one of our tech support people to confirm they do.

Looks too wide to connect two units directly side by side. I wonder if they could be attached with very short coax cables with appropriate bnc connectors on each end without hurting performance.

edit: just realised one of them could be connected upside down so maybe they would fit ?

Yes this ^.
More in depth answer to follow soon.

[tautech]

Initial reply from Siglent indicates 2 units ISFE wouldn't fit on SDS1104X-E however some BNC C-C measurements indicates they will...........just ! 

As plurn has guessed one unit needs to be flipped, 1/ to fit the BNC's and 2/ to expose the USB A socket so to get power to the ISFE.
In an old thread about ISFE we examined their basic performance which is by no means can be called startling however now we have input attenuation to roughly match the ~200x of ISFE reasonable indicative measurements can now be taken and even further improved upon using the custom input attenuation settings X-E DSO's have.

This thread could use some updates however it's a broad look at the capabilities of ISFE:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-isfe-scope-front-end-isolator-any-opinions/


Back to the issue at hand.......well I believe 2 units of ISFE will indeed fit the SDS1104X-E but as I don't have 2 units we need to rely on measurements and here I've marked the center of ch2 and ch3 in pencil and as this photo shows there's basically zero clearance between 2 units.



So a little ingenuity may be required to power both units and still have one USB A socket available for screenshots but I guess any USB phone charger should be adequate if its power is clean enough.

A screenshot
20V p-p 1000Hz from SDG1032X
BNC cable

[graybeard]

Given the limited 1MHz bandwidth of these units there should be no difference in the resulting measurements if they are connected with a pair of short BNC cables.   That seems like the obvious solution to me.
Plus it looks like the units will apply some shear stress on where the BNC connectors soldered to the PCB on the scope.  Thus using short BNC cables seems like the best choice.

[tautech]

Given the limited 1MHz bandwidth of these units there should be no difference in the resulting measurements if they are connected with a pair of short BNC cables.   That seems like the obvious solution to me.
Plus it looks like the units will apply some shear stress on where the BNC connectors soldered to the PCB on the scope.  Thus using short BNC cables seems like the best choice.

Shear stress is minimized in that Siglent use chassis bolt through bulkhead style BNC's in all their DSO's.
We don't have TDS210/220 BNC style fixing thank heavens. 

[Rerouter]

Suppose a stupid question. But is there any reason a siglent scope would not support an externally powered usb hub.

[starlight_tools]

Lead me not into temptation, just point the way and I'll find it myself! 

Dang nabbit you guys you pointed the way and kicked me over the edge and even with all the nay sayers I still ordered one of these critters SDS1104X-E.  Due in 2 to 4 days.

This all started when I was offered a Rigol DS1102E from one of my clients that was barely out of the box when her husband passed away.  But it is only two channel!  From there I looked at the Rigol 1054Z but the Siglent SDS1104X-E was only $23 dollars more.

I have been looking for a 4 channel scope for quite awhile.  Most of what I need the scope for is three phase power work, testing RPC's (Rotary Phase Converters), VFD's (Varible Frequency Drives)
 etc so I need the ability to be able to show three phases on the screen at the same time to compare them.

Still doing my homework as to what other probes I will need besides the stock probes.

Walter Townsend, TTDr

While the stock probes are rated to 600V @ 10x it would be wise to get some fixed 100x probes not only for their higher voltage rating but also the additional protection they offer the user and the scope.
At the sort of frequencies you'd encounter the cheap ones from eBay or Aliexpress would be fine.


This of course presumes you can probe with a common reference point (mains ground) for all your work however when you can't either 2 units of Siglents 2ch ISFE or a set of differential probes are the preferred and safe solutions.
https://www.siglentamerica.com/accessory/isolated-channel-optional-accessories%EF%BC%88isfe%EF%BC%89/
https://store.siglentamerica.com/product/isfe-isolated-front-end/

One thing I can't confirm as I haven't checked is if 2 ISFE units will mount side by side onto the 4 BNC inputs and you'd need to check with one of our tech support people to confirm they do.

P4250 or CP-3308R  or B&K PR2000B which would couple to the Siglent better.

[tautech]

P4250 or CP-3308R  which would couple to the Siglent better.

They're fine for 100x passive probes and give additional protection at mains voltages but either cannot provide isolation if/when required.

Like a truck tractor unit, it's no good to anyone without a trailer to put on the back just as a scope is limited without the right probe to safely do a job.
There's a reasonable selection of differential probes available from several manufacturers, the Pintek DP-25, Daves HVP70 and another from Micsig depending on how deep you pockets are. For high BW and HV you can pay several x the value of an entry level DSO to properly equip them for 3ph mains work.
https://www.eevblog.com/product/hvp70/

And yes, an isolated channel DSO can sidestep the need for differential probes and you can rest assured I've long asked Siglent to develop one. 

[HendriXML]

Suppose a stupid question. But is there any reason a siglent scope would not support an externally powered usb hub.

I don’t know how much power it draws, but if the scope is used as a power source, then the chances are quite high that the ground connection of the BNC is used to conduct most of the (negative side) current. Just like a SAG1021 does. One might think, that the connection is really short and almost no voltage will drop. But because those BNC are not made of copper (I assume), the drop might still be some mV’s. I don’t know what the output range is of the probe, but that might be significant.
Having an external power source will be better in that regard.

[Rerouter]

New broken out protocol trigger commands, there where some with typo's in the string, I've just marked which they where

TRIIC      TRIG_IIC   TRIIC?   TRIG_IIC?
TRSPI      TRIG_SPI   TRSPI?   TRIG_SPI?
TRUART      TRIG_UART   TRUART?   TRIG_UART?
TRCAN      TRIG_CAN   TRCAN?   TRIG_CAN?               
TRLIN      TRIG_LIN   TRLIN?   TRIG_LIN?


TRIIC:SCL   TRIG_IIC:SCL      Command / Query
TRIIC:SDA   TRIG_IIC:SDA      Command / Query
TRIIC:CON   TRIG_IIC:CONDITION   Command / Query
TRIIC:QUAL   TRIG_IIC:QUALIFIER   Command / Query
TRIIC:ADDR   TRIG_IIC:ADDRESS   Command / Query
TRIIC:DATA   TRIG_IIC:DATA      Command / Query
TRIIC:DAT2   TRIG_IIC:DATA2      Command / Query
TRIIC:RW   TRIG_IIC:RW      Command / Query
TRIIC:ALEN   TRIG_IIC:ADDR_LEN   Command / Query
TRIIC:DLEN   TRIG_IIC:DATA_LEN   Command / Query


TRSPI:CLK   TRIG_SPI:CLK      Command / Query
TRSPI:CLK:EDGE   TRIG_SPI:CLK:EDGE   Command / Query
TRSPI:CLK:TIM   TRIG_SPI:CLK:TIME   Command / Query
TRSPI:MOSI   TRIG_SPI:MOSI      Command / Query
TRSPI:MISO   TRIG_SPI:MISO      Command / Query
TRSPI:CSTP   TRIG_SPI:CSTYPE      Command / Query
TRSPI:CS   TRIG_SPI:CS      Command / Query
TRSPI:NCS   TRIG_SPI:NCS      Command / Query
TRSPI:TRTY   TRIG_SPI:TRTY      Command / Query
TRSPI:DLEN   TRIG_SPI:DATA_LEN   Command / Query
TRSPI:BIT   TRIG_SPI:BIT      Command / Query
TRSPI:TRTY   TRIG_SPI:TRTY      Command / Query
TRSPI:DATA   TRIG_SPI:DATA      Command?
TRSPI:CLK:SL            Command?
TRSPI:FRAM            Command?


TRUART:RX   TRIG_UART:RX      Command / Query
TRUART:TX   TRIG_UART:TX      Command / Query
TRUART:TRTY   TRIG_UART:TRTY      Command / Query
TRUART:CON   TRIG_UART:CONDITION   Command / Query
TRUART:QUAL   TRIG_UART:QUALIFIER   Command / Query
TRUART:DATA   TRIG_UART:DATA      Command / Query
TRUART:BAUD   TRIG_UART:BAUD      Command / Query
TRUART:DLEN   TRIG_UART:DATA_LEN   Command / Query
TRUART:PAR   TRIG_UART:PARITY   Command / Query
TRUART:STOP   TRIG_UART:STOP      Command / Query
TRUART:POL   TRIG_UART:POLARITY   Command / Query
TRUART:BIT   TRIG_UART:BIT      Command / Query


TRCAN:CANH   TRIG_CAN:CANH      Command / Query
TRCAN:CANL   TRIG_CAN:CANL      Command / Query
TRCAN:TRTY   TRIG_CAN:TRTY      Command / Query
TRCAN:CON   TRIG_CAN:CONDITION   Command / Query
TRCAN:ID   TRIG_CAN:ID      Command / Query
TRCAN:IDL   TRIG_CAN:ID_LEN      Command / Query
TRCAN:DATA   TRIG_CAN:DATA      Command / Query
TRCAN:DAT2   TRIG_CAN:DATA2      Command / Query
TRCAN:BAUD   TRIG_CAN:BAUD      Command / Query


TRLIN:SRC   TRIG_LIN:SOURCE      Command / Query
TRLIN:CON   TRIG_LIN:CONDITION   Command / Query
TRLIN:ID   TRIG_LIN:ID      Command / Query
TRLIN:DATA   TRIG_LIN:DATA      Command / Query
TRLIN:DAT2   TRIG_LIN:DATA2      Command / Query
TRLIN:DLEN   TRIG_LIN:DATA_LEN   Command / Query
TRLIN:ERR:ID   TRIG_LIN:ERR:ID      Command / Query (typo)
TRLIN:ERR:CHK   TRIG_LIN:ERR:CHECK   Command / Query
TRLIN:ERR:SYNC   TRIG_LIN:SYNC      Command / Query (typo)
TRLIN:ERR:PAR   TRIG_LIN:ERR:PAR   Command / Query
TRLIN:BAUD   TRIG_LIN:BAUD      Command / Query
TRLIN:STAN   TRIG_LIN:STANDARD   Command / Query


TRQL      TRIG_QUALIFY_LIMIT   Command / Query
TRQT      TRIG_QUALIFY_TYPE   Command / Query
TRQS:SR      TRIG_QUALIFY_SET:SOURCE   Command / Query
TRQS:LV      TRIG_QUALIFY_SET:LEVEL   Command / Query
TRQE:SR      TRIG_QUALIFY_EDGE:SOURCE   Command / Query
TRQE:LV      TRIG_QUALIFY_EDGE:LEVEL   Command / Query
TRQE:SL      TRIG_QUALIFY_EDGE:SLOPE   Command / Query


TRDP      TRIG_DROP      Command / Query
TRNR      TRIG_NOISEREJ      Command / Query
TRWT      TRIG_WINDOW_TYPE   Command / Query
TRHD      TRIG_HOLDOFF      Command / Query
TRHDS      TRIG_HOLDOFF_START   Command / Query
TRPL      TRIG_PATTERN_LIMIT   Command / Query
TRTY      TRIG_TYPE      Command / Query
TRSR      TRIG_SOURCE      Command / Query
TRST      TRIG_STATUS      Command / Query
TRFSM      TRIG_FSM      Command / Query
TRPH      TRIG_PATTERN_HOLDOFF   Command / Query
TRPT      TRPT         Command / Query
TRSE      TRIG_SELECT      Command / Query
TRMD      TRIG_MODE      Command / Query
TRWI      TRIG_WINDOW      Command / Query
TRPA      TRIG_PATTERN      Command / Query


SET50
ARM      ARM_ACQUISITION
TRLV?      TRIG_LEVEL?
SAST?      SAMPLE_STATUS?

[Rerouter]

Hmm, looks like the voltmeter and measurement histogram, and zone triggering features are buried in there too, however they don't seem to have menus. looks promising. Any word on them Performa01? or are they staying 5000 exclusive?

[Performa01]

Hmm, looks like the voltmeter and measurement histogram, and zone triggering features are buried in there too, however they don't seem to have menus. looks promising. Any word on them Performa01? or are they staying 5000 exclusive?

I cannot  tell for sure, but Histograms and Zone trigger are most definitely midrange (SDS5000X) features and I would be surprised I we'd ever get them in the entry level instruments.

The DVM is just a marketing gag anyway, brought up by the big brands, even though I have to say it is very nicely implemented on the SDS5000X, with histogram and trend plots, but at the end of the day, it is just a very special way to represent automatic measurements.

BTW, I'm glad to report that I've just got a reply from Siglent R&D that they have identified the USB issue and we can expect a fix with the next firmware release!