Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E Mixed Signal Oscilloscopes

[Martin72]

I borrowed the scope from work, just want it up to date.

[nikitasius]

Hi folks, are there are some teardowns from `SDS1204X-E` ?
Are they share the same front?
From Dave's videos (https://youtu.be/Kay4Jk2DHuE?t=565 & https://youtu.be/slBXLf4YKtA?t=1183)

Red is `SDS1202X-E`, green is `SDS1104X-E`. Why SDS1202X-E ? Cause it's used as en example in big (130+ pages) review here.

Also from a review (from eevblog "Siglent SDS1000X-E Bandwidth Discussion.pdf"): "It looks like the 100MHz SDS1104X-E not only uses essentially the same frontend as the 200MHz
models, there is also no physical bandwidth limit fitted.", while regarding the photos they are different.

[BillyO]

The SDS1204X-E is exactly the same machine as the SDS1104X-E.  Exactly the same.  The only difference is the license code (and the sticker over the top of the screen).

You can take an SDS1104X-E, enter the right code, and it becomes an SDS1204X-E.  Many dozens here have done just that.

[Deso]

This may not be entirely true. SDS1104X-E is currently sold in 2 different HW versions - 01-05 and 09-06, so there will be some differences.
So far I can't find pictures of the newer HW version.
Also mine which is SDS1104X-e with HW 09-06 is showing very strange results with 200Mhz square wave signal (I know it is out of spec) and too much attenuation and I don't think that the frontend is capable of 200Mhz or is limited in the 09-06 version.

[Mortymore]

Hi folks, are there are some teardowns from `SDS1204X-E` ?
...
Red is `SDS1202X-E`, green is `SDS1104X-E`. ...

SDS1202X-E > 2 channel scope (different from the other 4 channel scopes)
SDS1104X-E and SDS1204X-E > 4 channel scopes (the same hardware I assume)

[bdunham7]

Also mine which is SDS1104X-e with HW 09-06 is showing very strange results with 200Mhz square wave signal (I know it is out of spec) and too much attenuation and I don't think that the frontend is capable of 200Mhz or is limited in the 09-06 version.

Have you upgraded it to 200MHz?  And where are you getting a 200MHz square wave?  If you want to test the front-end capabilites you'll need to use a clean sine wave or perhaps a fast edge at a much lower frequency.

[BillyO]

Also mine which is SDS1104X-e with HW 09-06 is showing very strange results with 200Mhz square wave signal (I know it is out of spec) and too much attenuation and I don't think that the frontend is capable of 200Mhz or is limited in the 09-06 version.

Mine is an 09-06.  I've done the license upgrade to 200MHz and it's within 3dB out past 230MHz as the 1.49 ns rise time will attest.  I believe others have even gotten a bit better.

Maybe you could take a screen shot and show us what you are seeing.

[2N3055]

This may not be entirely true. SDS1104X-E is currently sold in 2 different HW versions - 01-05 and 09-06, so there will be some differences.
So far I can't find pictures of the newer HW version.
Also mine which is SDS1104X-e with HW 09-06 is showing very strange results with 200Mhz square wave signal (I know it is out of spec) and too much attenuation and I don't think that the frontend is capable of 200Mhz or is limited in the 09-06 version.

To look at 200MHz squarewave you need 1GHz + scope... 2GHz even better..

Explanation and reference please...?

[nikitasius]

Thank you for your answers!
Especially about different HW révisions.

Just a little about the purpose of the scope i'm looking for: to test pocket AB amps i wanna make for fun, check if power is clean also and do some fun with uart. Nothing professional, just a hobby fun.
In Siglent i appreciate features like 4 channels, 1GSa/s per group, pretty fast waveforms/s aaand FFT (which looks good after the reviews i've seen), slow on 1Mpts but it's 1Mpts, so noise is lower and more details. I say again, it's for audio freq & for "excited" AB chips (which could do 20MHz or 30MHz in theory if i screw the schematic).
Also for the other fun cases i've seen that with scope and some math you can check C, L and electronic components (but i have testers also). I wanna enjoy it in my 36.
So my fun budget is 500-600€, and i agree with Dave (from YouTube), that 1k will be overkill for my needs. Also, compared to "same" rigols siglent more sensitive.

Next about hacks: 100MHz is okey for me, i don't need 200MHz, also i don't need 16digit channels (just 4 analog) and don't need generator cause i can make my own (w/ scope) or buy any other brand. But i want 100MHz i'm paying for. So here we speak about the hack and the screenshot from the review.
Why the hek 100MHz have -1dB at 75MHz?.. i can't get in. 200MHz model is cool at 200MHz and you pay for 200MHz, but when you buy 100MHz you don't pay 50MHz scope or 75MHz scope. So if it's pure software crap, well, i will hack that FIR config and enjoy my 100MHz scope.
If the frontend is different and poor, well, i will enjoy nothing and lose factory calibration (seen these comments in topic) which was made for 100MHz scope.

So, did actual SDS1104X-E have poor front (or the other parts) compared to SDS1204X-E or it's just software "issues"? I've seen siglent folks in thread also, if they have no NDA, it could be good to know simple "no bruh, it's just software" or "yeah, don't even try to get real numbers with latest 1104 models at 80-90MHz".

Before i was targeting MSO5074, hacked, sure, to get 100MHz, but 8Gsa/s it's total overkill for me (again i'm agree w/ Dave).

[2N3055]

Thank you for your answers!
Especially about different HW révisions.

Just a little about the purpose of the scope i'm looking for: to test pocket AB amps i wanna make for fun, check if power is clean also and do some fun with uart. Nothing professional, just a hobby fun.
In Siglent i appreciate features like 4 channels, 1GSa/s per group, pretty fast waveforms/s aaand FFT (which looks good after the reviews i've seen), slow on 1Mpts but it's 1Mpts, so noise is lower and more details. I say again, it's for audio freq & for "excited" AB chips (which could do 20MHz or 30MHz in theory if i screw the schematic).
Also for the other fun cases i've seen that with scope and some math you can check C, L and electronic components (but i have testers also). I wanna enjoy it in my 36.
So my fun budget is 500-600€, and i agree with Dave (from YouTube), that 1k will be overkill for my needs. Also, compared to "same" rigols siglent more sensitive.

Next about hacks: 100MHz is okey for me, i don't need 200MHz, also i don't need 16digit channels (just 4 analog) and don't need generator cause i can make my own (w/ scope) or buy any other brand. But i want 100MHz i'm paying for. So here we speak about the hack and the screenshot from the review.
Why the hek 100MHz have -1dB at 75MHz?.. i can't get in. 200MHz model is cool at 200MHz and you pay for 200MHz, but when you buy 100MHz you don't pay 50MHz scope or 75MHz scope. So if it's pure software crap, well, i will hack that FIR config and enjoy my 100MHz scope.
If the frontend is different and poor, well, i will enjoy nothing and lose factory calibration (seen these comments in topic) which was made for 100MHz scope.

So, did actual SDS1104X-E have poor front (or the other parts) compared to SDS1204X-E or it's just software "issues"? I've seen siglent folks in thread also, if they have no NDA, it could be good to know simple "no bruh, it's just software" or "yeah, don't even try to get real numbers with latest 1104 models at 80-90MHz".

Before i was targeting MSO5074, hacked, sure, to get 100MHz, but 8Gsa/s it's total overkill for me (again i'm agree w/ Dave).

You seem to be beginner in this, so here is a short explanation.
First you make conclusions based on several wrong information..

100 MHz scope means 100 MHz point is actually -3dB down...
That is industry standard way of specifying scope BW. True for any scope on planet.
Why so? Long story, already explained elsewhere many times..

Second, by "opening" scope to full bandwidth you don't "loose calibration". These scopes are fully 200MHz designs.
Different PCB revisions are simply that. Different revisions, that happens over product lifecycle..

For what you say is your intended use it should serve you very well..

[BillyO]

Why the hek 100MHz have -1dB at 75MHz?.. i can't get in.

-1dB is nothing but @ 75MHz that is very unusual for this scope.

Once again, can you provide some screen shots of what you are seeing?  We are blind right now.


Oh, BTW, the upgrade to 200MHz can be had for free .. just maybe 15-20 minutes of your time.  References to how are in this thread.  Read back ...

[Performa01]

Traditionally, oscilloscope bandwidth is specified for 3 dB amplitude drop. For the usual Gaussian response in lower bandwidth scopes, the amplitude drop would be about 2 dB at 75 MHz for a 100 MHz scope. In the light of this, the Siglent SDS1104X-E is much better with only 1 dB drop at that frequency.

The reason is of course that the artificial bandwidth limit is accomplished by a FIR-filter that is not Gaussian. Those who ask why we don't choose a filter characteristics that has even less (ideally zero) drop up to the corner frequency should learn about the requirements for an oscilloscope frontend, especially group delay.

[gf]

The reason is of course that the artificial bandwidth limit is accomplished by a FIR-filter that is not Gaussian. Those who ask why we don't choose a filter characteristics that has even less (ideally zero) drop up to the corner frequency should learn about the requirements for an oscilloscope frontend, ...

A "flat-top" frequency response comes at the cost of more overshoot in the step response. It's a trade-off.

An ideal Gaussian filter has the nice property of having no overshoot in the step response while minimizing the rise and fall time.

...especially group delay.

With a (symmetrical) FIR filter, frequency-dependent group delay is actually not an issue -- any symmetrical FIR filter is linear phase.

[Performa01]

A "flat-top" frequency response comes at the cost of more overshoot in the step response. It's a trade-off.

An ideal Gaussian filter has the nice property of having no overshoot in the step response while minimizing the rise and fall time.

Right. And knowing all this, how much overshoot do you think is acceptable so that we still can have a decent signal fidelity? It is - or at least should be - the goal for every serious oscilloscope to show the actual signal at its input, not the imperfections of its frontend.

There are many folks who complain loudly as soon as the overshoot with a clean squarewave input becomes even visible, let alone if it exceeds 3 %. And rightfully so.

Yes, there are situations where even a good (usually wideband) frontend might exceed 10 %, but these should be rare and limited to very unusual input signals.

With a (symmetrical) FIR filter, frequency-dependent group delay is actually not an issue -- any symmetrical FIR filter is linear phase.

Correct. The frontend has a certain frequency response itself, which we can see for the highest bandwidth model, such as the SDS1204X-E. Even the 200 MHz model will have more than 0 dB drop at 75 MHz, even with a perfectly flat FIR filter behind. Furthermore, there is no intention to have a vastly different frequency response characteristics for the lower bandwidth models, even when the bandwidth is limited by an FIR filter.

[nikitasius]

2N3055 yep, pretty new. Never had a scope before. Nice to know about -3dB certs 👍

BillyO which screenshots ? Here is the tread https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/

Performa01 & gf thanks for useful info!

[Deso]

Have you upgraded it to 200MHz?  And where are you getting a 200MHz square wave?  If you want to test the front-end capabilites you'll need to use a clean sine wave or perhaps a fast edge at a much lower frequency.

It is not upgraded.
I don't have a sine source (yet ) so I used my NanoVNA v2 (teardown here), which can be used as signal generator. It produces square wave signals. At 200Mhz I'm observing too much decreasing of the signal level and strange behavior of the offset while switching the vertical resolution.

Maybe you could take a screen shot and show us what you are seeing.

I'll provide more information when I do more and proper measurements.

To look at 200MHz squarewave you need 1GHz + scope... 2GHz even better..

Explanation and reference please...?

I was trying to find the limits of my new toy and noticed some strange behavior. But as I said - will provide more info when I'm sure in the results.

[BillyO]

BillyO which screenshots ? Here is the tread https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/

Sorry, I thought you were actually seeing all this poor performance.  But I guess you are just imagining it?

As I said above, with the 200MHz enabled, you will not have any issues with bandwidth.

[nikitasius]

BillyO which screenshots ? Here is the tread https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/

Sorry, I thought you were actually seeing all this poor performance.  But I guess you are just imagining it?

As I said above, with the 200MHz enabled, you will not have any issues with bandwidth.

Yep and my imagination could generate the pdfs and the screenshots. So who knows what could i imagine while answering you.

100MHz->200MHz not a problem. Good to know that it's a software issue and not a hardware (while visually thats different a bit)
Upd: 1104xe and 1202xe fronts at least.

[tony359]

Hi all

I don't seem to be able to update my 1104 to OS3. I tried with several USB sticks but nothing happens. OS is still listed at 8.2. Yes, I know there is probably little gain in going to 3 but that's another story!

Can anybody help me please?
Thanks
Tony

[tautech]

Hi all

I don't seem to be able to update my 1104 to OS3. I tried with several USB sticks but nothing happens. OS is still listed at 8.2. Yes, I know there is probably little gain in going to 3 but that's another story!

Can anybody help me please?
Thanks
Tony

Check attached PDF to see if you actually need to install OS V3.

[tony359]

Yeah, that was my comment about the little gain in updating. Still, why is it not updating?

[tautech]

Yeah, that was my comment about the little gain in updating. Still, why is it not updating?

I had the same with my prerelease SDS1104X-E and OS V2 yet the features the new FW and OS supported did work.
Don't lose sleep about it.

[tony359]

Not losing sleep and not expecting anything! I'm just curious and I'd like to know why it is not updating!

[2N3055]

Yeah, that was my comment about the little gain in updating. Still, why is it not updating?

Because you didn't check what hardware revision you have?

Is your scope System Status showing Hardware revision 09-xx ??

If number is less than 09 than you don't have new hardware revision and that update is not for you. That firmware has same functionality as previous one, but has added support for new MB in OS part.

[tony359]

Is your scope System Status showing Hardware revision 09-xx ??

It is