EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: Aidanator7000 on December 26, 2018, 10:16:27 pm
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Hey all
I've been looking at getting my first 'proper' scope for a while, and after a lot of looking around and weighing up the various benefits of different scopes it has come to a decision between the SDS1204X-E and the SDS2204X. (ideally I would buy a RTB2000 series scope by they are too expensive).
For a bit of context, I am about to start my second year of an EE degree, and would like the scope to supplement my learning, but I also intend to use the scope for the various projects I mess around with (which are mostly Arduino based, although that will likely change in the future). The scope is a bit of an investment for me, so I would like to buy something which exceeds my current requirements so it can meet future requirements.
The 2204X is about twice the price of the 1204X-E, so my question is, are the extra features/ better specs of the 2000X series scope worth the extra cost?
As far as I can tell the the 2204X is better in these ways:
- Double the sample rate
- Bigger screen
- More memory
- Built in AWG
- Higher waveform capture rate
- Individual channel controls
- Probe attenuation detection ??
There are a couple features which the 1204X-E beats the 2204X - namely bode plot and FFT but i doubt I would use those much.
Cheers for your help.
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Hi,
Got a 1104X-E before the MSO5074.
The bode plot function doesn´t meant much to me, the fft was a benefit - also the ability to hide the channels if you decode something and want to display the event table only.
More memory is interesting if you need to dig around in waveform histories.
The bigger screen of the 2000 models could be a decision point.
For me I was surprised about the quality of the 1000X-E series.
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The 2204X is about twice the price of the 1204X-E, so my question is, are the extra features/ better specs of the 2000X series scope worth the extra cost?
Welcome to the forum.
For your needs a SDS1104X-E would just be fine and as your first scope offer a good look at what features you really need in a scope and all for a third of the price of a 2204X.
Yes, the 2000X models do offer some advantage over the X-E however having owned and used both over some years I sold my 2304X recently in favour of the features X-E’s offer.
For your needs, possibly only the power analysis option the 2000X offers might leave you short changed when it come to a power electronics module at Uni.
I have 1104X-E in stock and more 1204X-E coming in late Jan.
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The bigger screen of the 2000 models could be a decision point.
Yes, I agree the larger screen size is a big one for me, it is one of the things that draws me to the RTB2000 scopes, the nice BIG HD screen looks really good.
The 2204X is about twice the price of the 1204X-E, so my question is, are the extra features/ better specs of the 2000X series scope worth the extra cost?
Welcome to the forum.
For your needs a SDS1104X-E would just be fine and as your first scope offer a good look at what features you really need in a scope and all for a third of the price of a 2204X.
Yes, the 2000X models do offer some advantage over the X-E however having owned and used both over some years I sold my 2304X recently in favour of the features X-E’s offer.
For your needs, possibly only the power analysis option the 2000X offers might leave you short changed when it come to a power electronics module at Uni.
I have 1104X-E in stock and more 1204X-E coming in late Jan.
The 1000X-E series is very tempting indeed. Just so I know how soon could you have a 2204X in stock?
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The 2204X is about twice the price of the 1204X-E, so my question is, are the extra features/ better specs of the 2000X series scope worth the extra cost?
Welcome to the forum.
For your needs a SDS1104X-E would just be fine and as your first scope offer a good look at what features you really need in a scope and all for a third of the price of a 2204X.
Yes, the 2000X models do offer some advantage over the X-E however having owned and used both over some years I sold my 2304X recently in favour of the features X-E’s offer.
For your needs, possibly only the power analysis option the 2000X offers might leave you short changed when it comes to a power electronics module at Uni.
I have 1104X-E in stock and more 1204X-E coming in late Jan.
The 1000X-E series is very tempting indeed. Just so I know how soon could you have a 2204X in stock?
Approx four weeks.
If you’re seriously looking at a higher spec DSO consider the SDS5000X models that are forecasted to be released in the next few weeks. Models start at 350 MHz however prices are unknown just yet. There’s a thread here about what little we know yet about them apart from a few screenshots uploaded by one of Siglents beta testers. Have a search for them.
If you’re in Auckland you’re welcome to come demo anything I have in stock when I get home from WA.
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Well I can tell some stuff about the 2000X-E series from the 1000X-E program with a number of fun looking switched off menus that match up with some obsure marketing blurbs.
Things like the input bandwidth filter should be OFF-20MHz-200MHz, It has input filtering menus, and video triggering.
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Yes, the main advantages of the SDS2kX series are:
• 300 MHz max. bandwidth
• 2 GSa/s per channel pair sample rate
• 8” screen
• 140 Mpts per channel pair sample memory
• Max. 140 kWfm/s waveform update (trigger) rate
• Automatic probe attenuation factor detection
• External trigger input even on 4-Ch. models
• Individual channel controls
• Additional physical controls for reference or math waveforms and digital traces
• Internal 50 Ohm termination
• Built-in AWG option
• Power Analysis option
• MSO option with proper digital channel integration
But the SDS2kX is also an older platform with some limitations and a less developed firmware:
• X-Y, Eres and Average acquisition modes limited to max. 14kpts per channel pair
• FFT limited to 16kpts and no averaging
• Serial decoders drop global context in Zoom mode. So even though long records (up to 1.4 Mpts) can be decoded in the list view, close inspection of signal details is only really possible for short messages.
• Screen shots are stored as bitmap and it takes a few seconds.
Based on the current platform, the SDS1004X-E series offer a number of advantages indeed:
• X-Y, Eres and Average acquisition modes are hardware accelerated and work up to 1.4Mpts record length
• Automatic measurements cover the full record length (deep measurements up to 14 Mpts)
• FFT up to 1Mpts and averaging available
• Serial decoders keep global context in zoom mode
• Search function
• Navigate function (automatic knob twiddler)
• Horizontal reference position selectable between fixed delay or fixed position
• Vertical reference position selectable between fixed offset or fixed position
• Bode Plotter that works with any Siglent SAG/SDG waveform generator
• Screen shots as PNG almost instantly
• Integrated webserver allows platform independent remote operation and near real-time display (10 fps using any web browser)
All in all, the SDS1004X-E has the more modern software platform and a lot of handy features.
Never say never – so don’t insist that you won’t use this and don’t need that. Once you’ve learned how certain features can speed up your workflow and help with particular tasks, you will quickly start appreciating them.
After all you’ve mention that you want a scope that will serve you for the years to come.
So as long as you don’t really need any of the SDS2kX features, then the SDS1004X-E clearly is the better offer for you right now.
How do you know you won’t need any of the SDS2k features in the near future? Well, let’s see:
Bandwidth: 200MHz is plenty for the majority of everyday tasks – and if you really need more, chances are that 300MHz won’t cut it either.
Sample rate: of course more is better, but 4 x 500MSa/s is just enough for 200MHz, all the more so as the SDS1004X-E has a perfect working sin(x)/x reconstruction. Of course, actual -3dB bandwidths are more like 240MHz on the SDS1000X-E (340MHz on SDS2kX) and in situations with strong signal content above 250MHz, you’ll have to revert to (interleaved) 2-channel mode, where 2 x 1GSa/s are available, in order to prevent visible signal distortion and aliasing.
Screen size: the difference is not huge, but on the SDS1004X-E you can use a computer screen over the web interface if you really need a big display.
Sample memory: You need it whenever you have slow signals with significant high frequency content. 14Mpts at 1GSa/s covers 5 times less than 140Mpts at 2Gsa/s but will be more than enough in most situations. It allows full sample rate down to 1 ms/div timebase, so you can accurately analyze a 100Hz signal with 4ns spikes in it without the need for peak-detect mode. Peak detect is a crouch from the old days where scopes had short memories. It only kicks in when the sample rate drops below the maximum, but then it destroys the original waveform.
1.4Mpts vs. 14kpts for X-Y, Eres and Average on the other hand is a huge difference in favor of the SDS1004X-E.
Automatic probe factor detection – just a convenience – only useful if you change probes quite often (and have compatible probes with support for this feature).
Ext. Trigger in addition to the four channels – you will probably not use nor miss it on a four channel scope. Maybe I should add that the ext. trigger input is always old-style analog, hence has far less performance and features than a (fully digital) trigger from the regular channels.
Individual channel controls – just a matter of taste (and religion). It’s only a small advantage given the fact that there are so many other settings that need menu access and are even more likely to be changed during a test session. Ultimately, you rather tweak the DUT instead the scope settings, once you’ve set it up properly.
Internal 50 Ohm termination: very handy, but for up to 300MHz you can make do with external feed-through terminators.
Built-in AWG – these are generally limited in performance and features anyway. Except for portable scopes meant for service technicians, I’d always go for a proper separate benchtop waveform generator – much more powerful with better usability.
Power Analysis Option: well, most of us (in the industry as well as hobbyists) leave SMPS design to the specialists like TDK/Lambda for a reason. If hobbyists or even small companies happen to build their own SMPS on some occasion, I very much doubt that any of them even considers a Power Analysis Package at all. It is certainly not needed for the standard designs.
The MSO has a few drawbacks on the SDS1004X-E series, because it is an external device with own intelligence and integration is not that great. But it certainly does the basic job for an MSO – and even up to more than 300MHz. It is not suited for high level bus protocol decoding/analysis on long data streams. But if you want that, then you don’t care for the close timing relation to analog signals (which is the whole sense of an MSO) and you better get a dedicated logic/protocol analyzer for that.
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The 2204X is about twice the price of the 1204X-E, so my question is, are the extra features/ better specs of the 2000X series scope worth the extra cost?
Welcome to the forum.
For your needs a SDS1104X-E would just be fine and as your first scope offer a good look at what features you really need in a scope and all for a third of the price of a 2204X.
Yes, the 2000X models do offer some advantage over the X-E however having owned and used both over some years I sold my 2304X recently in favour of the features X-E’s offer.
For your needs, possibly only the power analysis option the 2000X offers might leave you short changed when it comes to a power electronics module at Uni.
I have 1104X-E in stock and more 1204X-E coming in late Jan.
The 1000X-E series is very tempting indeed. Just so I know how soon could you have a 2204X in stock?
Approx four weeks.
If you’re seriously looking at a higher spec DSO consider the SDS5000X models that are forecasted to be released in the next few weeks. Models start at 350 MHz however prices are unknown just yet. There’s a thread here about what little we know yet about them apart from a few screenshots uploaded by one of Siglents beta testers. Have a search for them.
If you’re in Auckland you’re welcome to come demo anything I have in stock when I get home from WA.
Yes I have seen the thread about the 5000X scope and am curious to see the price point. However, i think more than likely it will be more than I am willing to pay.
Sadly I live in Wellington so I won't be able to demo them :/
Performa01, thank you for you reply, that is alot of information - it almost makes it harder to choose :)
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Sadly I live in Wellington so I won't be able to demo them :/
I do have to visit Welly in early Feb.......
Performa01, thank you for you reply, that is alot of information - it almost makes it harder to choose :)
Not IMO if you look at the big picture if wanting/needing AWG functionality too.
Stand-alone two channel units are always better.
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Yes I have seen the thread about the 5000X scope and am curious to see the price point. However, i think more than likely it will be more than I am willing to pay.
Sadly I live in Wellington so I won't be able to demo them :/
Performa01, thank you for you reply, that is alot of information - it almost makes it harder to choose :)
I can fully understand your dilemma. You want a clear offer – here the cheap entry level scope with a certain performance and feature set, there the higher priced upper entry level scope with higher performance and even more features.
Currently there is no such offer, because the young entry level scopes beat the older upper entry level generation in quite some regards.
The upcoming SDS5000X would certainly be nice, but this is ultimately going to be a midrange scope and I would expect that even the 350MHz base version will be considerably more expensive than a SDS2304X – and the serial decoders are options at an additional cost on anything above the SDS1000X-E series anyway.
Recently the SDS2000X-E has been released, which is essentially a SDS1004X-E with only 2 channels, but ext. trigger, internal 50 Ohm termination, twice the sample rate and up to 350MHz bandwidth. So this is a first small step into the 2000 series. Sooner or later there has to be a successor for the current SDS2000X series and that’s probably what you’d ultimately want, because it will certainly have the features of 1004X-E and current 2000X combined and then some.
So my advice can only be, get a cheap SDS1004X-E for now and explore its features. Later then, when you’ve gained enough experience and know precisely what you need/want, you can always think about an upgrade. But I think you will be surprised how far you can get with the SDS1004X-E.
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That makes a lot of sense - i was disappointed when i saw that the 2000X-E series only had 2 channel versions.
I'm glad i asked this question because i was originally leaning towards the 2000X series, but it does seem that the 1000X-E series is a more sensible option, even if i only have it for a couple years.
Also is it true that keysight will soon release a 4 channel version of their 1000X series? That would probably be a contender for the 1000X-E series if its price is reasonable.
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Hey Aidanator7000,
Thanks for posting this, because I had nearly the exact requirements and questions you had! Based on Performa01's information, which for me was exactly the feedback I've been searching for, I decided that the 2000 series scopes felt more like an incremental increase in features and performance, at best, and with a hefty premium for us entry level guys. Beyond this price point, the really nice stuff starts to get really expensive, and for me as a hobbyist, I just don't know that I really need all that extra Scope at this point.
Since I'm mostly doing Microcontroller work (with all the assorted sensors, displays, and such...) with some custom supporting circuit design, I felt like a "nicer" entry level scope and a nice logic analyzer were going to ultimately be a much better value at this point in my EE journey. So, with a SDS1204X-E ordered and on the way and my Saleae Logic 8, I feel like I should be in a good spot.
One last pearl of wisdom I can hope to give you; As a lifelong technologist with a 25+ year career in computer science and software engineering, I recommend you to be cautious of chasing the tail of technology. I had to remind myself during this purchase decision that I don't "need" the latest and greatest, best piece of kit out there. It is insanely expensive to try and keep up with the evolution of technology, and over-buying technology is disturbingly easy. To the points made by others, get the less expensive scope and explore it until it truly doesn't fit your needs anymore. At that point, you'll be much further along in your career and have a much more solid understanding of what you actually need in a piece of equipment and can make a far more educated purchasing decision without as much opinion and support from us strangers on the internet.
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I was investigating this topic myself earlier today. Thanks to all.