Author Topic: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings  (Read 23023 times)

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Offline rf-loopTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #50 on: January 28, 2020, 10:25:56 am »
Quote
About new SDS2000X Plus Bode Plot.
SDS2kX+ have 50MHz internal signal generator. Of course with it can not do setups what use SDG with 2 output settings.

I have not SDS2000X Plus and here in China all who knows are now spring holidays.

Who can check if this model can use internal signal generatorfor BP use only without FG license installed. Even with scopes with external SAG USB generator do not need SAG  license if use this only for BodePlot.
If use SDS2kX+ internal signal gen only for BP (BP controls it automatically) do it work without FG licence.

I use the Scope SDS1104X-E and the generator SDG2122X and I don't need any licence for the BodePlot and FunktionGenerator. I connect them over ethernet.
Answer is right if I ask this but not answer to my question at all.
Btw, I connect FG always via direct USB. Why... well... because no one is then never delaying communication between Scope and FG. (of course same if run bare point to point LAN)

Of course SDS1104X-E do not need. Have you ever read this thread from beginning, all what I have explained and tested... :) ;)

Also as we know SDS1kX-E do not have internal FG but SDS2kXPlus have and for this was my question. Is it possible to use its internal generator for Bode without activating this FG using Siglent licence for FG, what also activate manual control for internal FG but if user is not interested for use it other than Bodeplot).

This question is based to fact that SDS1kX-E have optional external FG (you know this SAG) and if buy this option he often byt this SAG hardware and then licence for use it as common FG. In SDS1kX-E case SAG (external box without controls) can use for Bode without purchasing its control license key. In this case it can still use for Bode but nothing else.
 
Now SDS2kXPlus have internal 50MHz FG what can use as common FG if purchase license key so user can run and control it using UI what is built in scope. And some people may like use it only for Bode and not want buy license key because overall this FG is not so advanced. So is it usable for Bode alone without license, this was and is question. ;)
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Offline torquil

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2020, 10:49:53 pm »
I have a Siglent SDS1104X-E that I use together with an SDG1062X, and the Bode Plot II function is very nice! But there seems to be a limit so that the y-axis cannot go beyond values in [-200,200], which is a bit troubling when using the BPII for impedance measurements with a linear y-scale.

I have made a small connection box for easily connecting everything required for an impedance measurement. One of the items I tested was a 3:1 transformer with a 100R load, so the input impedance will be beyond 200 Ohm. To get the impedance I provide voltage and current measurements to the Bode Plot II system, and use the Vout/Vin display (Vin represents current for this measurement) and a linear display on the y-axis.

These measurements work as expected, but since the input impedance is beyond 200 Ohm for the transformer, the graph disappears outside the plot area. I am forced to either manipulate the probe multiplication factor or use a logarithmic scale. I know I can get the CSV, but it would be nice to have an immediate and correct plot.

Anyone here know if this has been reported? I do use the newest firmware versions.
 

Offline mrprecision

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #52 on: November 15, 2020, 09:38:37 am »
how can you set the bodeplotII to linear yaxis?
 

Offline rf-loopTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #53 on: November 15, 2020, 10:17:51 am »
how can you set the bodeplotII to linear yaxis?

You did not tell what axis, vertical (level) or horizontal (freq)


This image have been in this thread long long time and all other informations. Just read.  ;)

Look top main menu and follow "Display"
There is Axis type (horizontal) select lin / log
For vertical select Scale V instead of dB  and scale units Vpp/Vrms/dBV/dBu/dBm/Arbitrary dB



I am not absolutely sure in all is exactly as shown after some FW update but almost all like this.


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Offline mrprecision

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #54 on: November 15, 2020, 05:23:33 pm »
I have a Siglent SDS1104X-E that I use together with an SDG1062X, and the Bode Plot II function is very nice! But there seems to be a limit so that the y-axis cannot go beyond values in [-200,200], which is a bit troubling when using the BPII for impedance measurements with a linear y-scale.

I have made a small connection box for easily connecting everything required for an impedance measurement. One of the items I tested was a 3:1 transformer with a 100R load, so the input impedance will be beyond 200 Ohm. To get the impedance I provide voltage and current measurements to the Bode Plot II system, and use the Vout/Vin display (Vin represents current for this measurement) and a linear display on the y-axis.

These measurements work as expected, but since the input impedance is beyond 200 Ohm for the transformer, the graph disappears outside the plot area. I am forced to either manipulate the probe multiplication factor or use a logarithmic scale. I know I can get the CSV, but it would be nice to have an immediate and correct plot.

Anyone here know if this has been reported? I do use the newest firmware versions.

I have tried it with my connection box. I found the option to set the y-axis linear. You are right, there are limit of +/-200. That is not very nice. If you activate the table of the values, you can see the correct values. I will report this to Siglent.

How is your connection boy set up? Do you have a photo or a schematic? I have the Scope and an SDG2xxx frequency generator, all Scope probes and the generator is connected to earth. How did you solve this problem?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 06:01:50 pm by mrprecision »
 

Offline mrprecision

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2020, 05:36:52 pm »
I have send an e-Mail to my Siglent contact regarding the -200/+200 scaling problem. They had also fixed my other bugs I had.
 

Offline rf-loopTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2020, 08:54:35 am »
I have a Siglent SDS1104X-E that I use together with an SDG1062X, and the Bode Plot II function is very nice! But there seems to be a limit so that the y-axis cannot go beyond values in [-200,200], which is a bit troubling when using the BPII for impedance measurements with a linear y-scale.

I have made a small connection box for easily connecting everything required for an impedance measurement. One of the items I tested was a 3:1 transformer with a 100R load, so the input impedance will be beyond 200 Ohm. To get the impedance I provide voltage and current measurements to the Bode Plot II system, and use the Vout/Vin display (Vin represents current for this measurement) and a linear display on the y-axis.

These measurements work as expected, but since the input impedance is beyond 200 Ohm for the transformer, the graph disappears outside the plot area. I am forced to either manipulate the probe multiplication factor or use a logarithmic scale. I know I can get the CSV, but it would be nice to have an immediate and correct plot.

Anyone here know if this has been reported? I do use the newest firmware versions.

I have tried it with my connection box. I found the option to set the y-axis linear. You are right, there are limit of +/-200. That is not very nice. If you activate the table of the values, you can see the correct values. I will report this to Siglent.

How is your connection boy set up? Do you have a photo or a schematic? I have the Scope and an SDG2xxx frequency generator, all Scope probes and the generator is connected to earth. How did you solve this problem?

Because I do not understand fully this setup (bolded in quote) I only can "blind" ask... is it possible to solve or help this situation so that also set BodePlot for this real used impedance instead of default 50ohm. This is also adjustable in BP!
I drive a LEC (low el. consumption) BEV car. Smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

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Offline mrprecision

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2020, 09:06:22 am »
The problem is not because of the impedance measuring. It is a bug in the BodePlotII function.

For example, if you make a Bodeplot of an amplifier with a gain for example of 300 and use in the Bodeplot a linear y-axis scaling, you should see the gain of 300 in the diagram. But the Diagram is limited to a gain of -200 to +200, so the curve is outside the diagram. In the list table the values a shown correct. The limit of -200 and +200 should be eliminated and the auto scaling of the linear y-axis should be fixed. The logarithmic scaling works fine, maybe there are also limits.

So it is not a problem with the impedance measurement over the frequency, witch works fine. I only saw that problem there yet, because I had no amplifier with this gain. I still prefere the double logarithmic scaling, so capacitors for example are a straight line.

Maybe we could discuss here the adaption boxes for impedance measurements to optimize that.

 

Offline mrprecision

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2020, 09:50:13 pm »
The problem is not because of the impedance measuring. It is a bug in the BodePlotII function.

For example, if you make a Bodeplot of an amplifier with a gain for example of 300 and use in the Bodeplot a linear y-axis scaling, you should see the gain of 300 in the diagram. But the Diagram is limited to a gain of -200 to +200, so the curve is outside the diagram. In the list table the values a shown correct. The limit of -200 and +200 should be eliminated and the auto scaling of the linear y-axis should be fixed. The logarithmic scaling works fine, maybe there are also limits.

So it is not a problem with the impedance measurement over the frequency, witch works fine. I only saw that problem there yet, because I had no amplifier with this gain. I still prefere the double logarithmic scaling, so capacitors for example are a straight line.

Maybe we could discuss here the adaption boxes for impedance measurements to optimize that.


Maybe we could discuss here the adaption boxes for impedance measurements to optimize that?
 

Offline graybeard

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #59 on: December 04, 2020, 06:36:26 pm »
For really-high-quality audio power amplifiers, a bode plot of the range 0.1 Hz to, say, 100 Hz will enable a designer to accurately predict the audibility of artifacts coming from attempts to limit the vlf range by steep slope high pass filtering of subsonics.

People building bass guitar amps and high pass filters for them are interested in evaluating the very low frequency response. They often use an HPF to prevent the cone excursions from exceeding safe limits if subsonic information appears at the amplifier inputs. Bass cabs often walk a fine line between being able to generate a high output level at 30 to 60 Hz and blowing up when presented with low frequency noise and often some help from the amp or a filter in front of the amp is needed.

A better question to ask is the 10Hz low limit arbitrary or is it driven some important cost or reliability concern?

If it was just an arbitrary limit then why NOT extend it as far as possible?

People building filters for some scientific applications will want to test at sub 10Hz frequencies. There may not be terribly many such people but again if the limit is arbitrary then it should be removed.

I suspect the 10 Hz low frequency limit is due to the low frequency roll-off of the AC coupling on the scope since it always changes to AC coupling for the bode plot function.   The AC coupled low frequency roll off -3dB point is speced at ≤2 Hz.   For gain flatness you want to be at least a decade above that.

Offline graybeard

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #60 on: December 04, 2020, 06:40:34 pm »
I verified last night that the Bode Plot II function works great up to 120MHz with my "upgraded" SDS1104X-E and my "upgraded" SDG2042X.

This was my mane reason for upgrading the function generator since it other wave forms are limited to 25MHz regardless of the upper frequency limit for the sine function.

As the frequency increases you need to be far more careful about proper terminations.  The scope needs both a 50 feed through termination and at least a 6dB attenuator for flat response all the way out to 120 MHz.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2020, 07:13:21 pm by graybeard »
 

Offline rf-loopTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #61 on: December 05, 2020, 08:14:54 am »
For really-high-quality audio power amplifiers, a bode plot of the range 0.1 Hz to, say, 100 Hz will enable a designer to accurately predict the audibility of artifacts coming from attempts to limit the vlf range by steep slope high pass filtering of subsonics.

People building bass guitar amps and high pass filters for them are interested in evaluating the very low frequency response. They often use an HPF to prevent the cone excursions from exceeding safe limits if subsonic information appears at the amplifier inputs. Bass cabs often walk a fine line between being able to generate a high output level at 30 to 60 Hz and blowing up when presented with low frequency noise and often some help from the amp or a filter in front of the amp is needed.

A better question to ask is the 10Hz low limit arbitrary or is it driven some important cost or reliability concern?

If it was just an arbitrary limit then why NOT extend it as far as possible?

People building filters for some scientific applications will want to test at sub 10Hz frequencies. There may not be terribly many such people but again if the limit is arbitrary then it should be removed.

I suspect the 10 Hz low frequency limit is due to the low frequency roll-off of the AC coupling on the scope since it always changes to AC coupling for the bode plot function.   The AC coupled low frequency roll off -3dB point is speced at ≤2 Hz.   For gain flatness you want to be at least a decade above that.

This AC response in Siglent these models have quite low f corner.  Data sheet do not tell lot, only rough ≤2 Hz -3dB.

Here attached one individual scope response. I have fast checked roughly some other individuals previously and they looks like in same ballpark. 10Hz low limit in SFRA is imho ok for this response.  It is, imho,  best that this BodePlot freq selective receiver is AC coupled.

Bode plot upper limit 120MHz is bit too high but if users know its limits it is still nice have this upper limit than half of it.

---

Inside SDG2000X is possible to tweak some other wfm limits but mostly result is way or other bad.
Of course example if rise triangle upper limit it can do... it can do lot. But... linearity is not then what is told in data sheet and as can see have done in some elcheapo generators due to fact they just want show higher number in data sheet. Also some other limits can break... but always there is then some negative side effect. Limits are just compromise between many variable things.
I have not done these experimentals with SDG2000X But with 1000X. What is - if think system software - very very close relatives.






One random individual SDS1104X-E, 0 - 10Hz fresponse when AC coupled.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 08:41:52 am by rf-loop »
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Offline rf-loopTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #62 on: December 05, 2020, 08:26:15 am »


As the frequency increases you need to be far more careful about proper terminations.  The scope needs both a 50 feed through termination and at least a 6dB attenuator for flat response all the way out to 120 MHz.

It is pity we do not have feed thru terminators what are matched for oscilloscope reactive inputs so that terminator input looks  good 50ohm impedance over whole freq range instead of only for "DC" or near DC like audio etc.

Who will start make these kind of  tunable feed thru terminators for 1M xC xL inputs in oscilloscopes. I do not believe any scope manufacturer start do scopes what have real 50 ohm input impedance when we talk these cheap oscillocopes. Because if they do there need do whole other parallel input stage for this and not just relay connected parallel resistor to ground from input center line.
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Online pope

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #64 on: March 05, 2022, 12:45:54 pm »
Please excuse my ignorance but I've been trying to run a simple bode plot of a lowpass filter (R=16Ohm, C=01.uF) with an Fc=100kHz.

I am using the 1104x-e with a sdg1032x and I'm having the following problem...

If I use only out1 of the AWG with a T-bar the results look fine. However if I try to use both channels of the AWG (with the tracking mode ON) the Fc is around 25kHz instead of the correct 100kHz.

Anyone knows what am I doing wrong? I've spent a lot of time yesterday and today fighting with my lack of knowledge and so far I'm loosing this battle...
 

Offline rf-loopTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #65 on: March 05, 2022, 01:30:46 pm »
Please excuse my ignorance but I've been trying to run a simple bode plot of a lowpass filter (R=16Ohm, C=01.uF) with an Fc=100kHz.

I am using the 1104x-e with a sdg1032x and I'm having the following problem...

If I use only out1 of the AWG with a T-bar the results look fine. However if I try to use both channels of the AWG (with the tracking mode ON) the Fc is around 25kHz instead of the correct 100kHz.

Anyone knows what am I doing wrong? I've spent a lot of time yesterday and today fighting with my lack of knowledge and so far I'm loosing this battle...

Is it fun that 50 ohm (generator source impedance) + 16 ohm is 66 ohm. With this R  and 0.1uF C it give bit over 24Hz...   at least it’s a really funny coincidence, is it. Think about it, at least.   ;)

I don’t want to take a further stand because I haven’t seen (whole setup) the whole reality you have in every factor involved.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2022, 01:44:49 pm by rf-loop »
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Online pope

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #66 on: March 05, 2022, 04:23:10 pm »
Please excuse my ignorance but I've been trying to run a simple bode plot of a lowpass filter (R=16Ohm, C=01.uF) with an Fc=100kHz.

I am using the 1104x-e with a sdg1032x and I'm having the following problem...

If I use only out1 of the AWG with a T-bar the results look fine. However if I try to use both channels of the AWG (with the tracking mode ON) the Fc is around 25kHz instead of the correct 100kHz.

Anyone knows what am I doing wrong? I've spent a lot of time yesterday and today fighting with my lack of knowledge and so far I'm loosing this battle...

Is it fun that 50 ohm (generator source impedance) + 16 ohm is 66 ohm. With this R  and 0.1uF C it give bit over 24Hz...   at least it’s a really funny coincidence, is it. Think about it, at least.   ;)

I don’t want to take a further stand because I haven’t seen (whole setup) the whole reality you have in every factor involved.

Of course , I feel stupid I missed that... Thanks for pointing it out!

However, I still don't understand why with. single channel and a T-bar,  the results were correct.

PS. I just tried with some more reasonable values (R=1kOhm, C0.1uF) and in both cases I got the correct results, Fc=1kHz.
 

Offline rf-loopTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #67 on: March 05, 2022, 06:24:52 pm »
Please excuse my ignorance but I've been trying to run a simple bode plot of a lowpass filter (R=16Ohm, C=01.uF) with an Fc=100kHz.

I am using the 1104x-e with a sdg1032x and I'm having the following problem...

If I use only out1 of the AWG with a T-bar the results look fine. However if I try to use both channels of the AWG (with the tracking mode ON) the Fc is around 25kHz instead of the correct 100kHz.

Anyone knows what am I doing wrong? I've spent a lot of time yesterday and today fighting with my lack of knowledge and so far I'm loosing this battle...

Is it fun that 50 ohm (generator source impedance) + 16 ohm is 66 ohm. With this R  and 0.1uF C it give bit over 24Hz...   at least it’s a really funny coincidence, is it. Think about it, at least.   ;)

I don’t want to take a further stand because I haven’t seen (whole setup) the whole reality you have in every factor involved.

Of course , I feel stupid I missed that... Thanks for pointing it out!

However, I still don't understand why with. single channel and a T-bar,  the results were correct.

PS. I just tried with some more reasonable values (R=1kOhm, C0.1uF) and in both cases I got the correct results, Fc=1kHz.

Think about it.  Think where from come signal what is reference. 
Think this generator internal R1 and then your external RC circuit R2. 
Bode Plot reference channel  come from this point between R1 and R2 and is also input to your RC what is just this R2 and then C.

In this single channel method, the internal resistor R1 certainly acts  but since the reference point is after it, its effect is eliminated because BP compares only DUT in and DUT out.
This does not happen with 2 channel operation because your RC will not load this other channel what is used only as a reference.
The two-channel method has some important advantages, but also some disadvantages, and one disadvantage is exactly what happens in this case.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2022, 06:32:40 pm by rf-loop »
I drive a LEC (low el. consumption) BEV car. Smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the wises gone?
 

Online pope

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #68 on: March 05, 2022, 08:05:18 pm »
Please excuse my ignorance but I've been trying to run a simple bode plot of a lowpass filter (R=16Ohm, C=01.uF) with an Fc=100kHz.

I am using the 1104x-e with a sdg1032x and I'm having the following problem...

If I use only out1 of the AWG with a T-bar the results look fine. However if I try to use both channels of the AWG (with the tracking mode ON) the Fc is around 25kHz instead of the correct 100kHz.

Anyone knows what am I doing wrong? I've spent a lot of time yesterday and today fighting with my lack of knowledge and so far I'm loosing this battle...

Is it fun that 50 ohm (generator source impedance) + 16 ohm is 66 ohm. With this R  and 0.1uF C it give bit over 24Hz...   at least it’s a really funny coincidence, is it. Think about it, at least.   ;)

I don’t want to take a further stand because I haven’t seen (whole setup) the whole reality you have in every factor involved.

Of course , I feel stupid I missed that... Thanks for pointing it out!

However, I still don't understand why with. single channel and a T-bar,  the results were correct.

PS. I just tried with some more reasonable values (R=1kOhm, C0.1uF) and in both cases I got the correct results, Fc=1kHz.

Think about it.  Think where from come signal what is reference. 
Think this generator internal R1 and then your external RC circuit R2. 
Bode Plot reference channel  come from this point between R1 and R2 and is also input to your RC what is just this R2 and then C.

In this single channel method, the internal resistor R1 certainly acts  but since the reference point is after it, its effect is eliminated because BP compares only DUT in and DUT out.
This does not happen with 2 channel operation because your RC will not load this other channel what is used only as a reference.
The two-channel method has some important advantages, but also some disadvantages, and one disadvantage is exactly what happens in this case.

That makes sense. Thank you very much!

What would you consider as advantages in the two-channel method that the single channel doesn't have?
 

Offline rf-loopTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2022, 09:12:16 am »
Please excuse my ignorance but I've been trying to run a simple bode plot of a lowpass filter (R=16Ohm, C=01.uF) with an Fc=100kHz.

I am using the 1104x-e with a sdg1032x and I'm having the following problem...

If I use only out1 of the AWG with a T-bar the results look fine. However if I try to use both channels of the AWG (with the tracking mode ON) the Fc is around 25kHz instead of the correct 100kHz.

Anyone knows what am I doing wrong? I've spent a lot of time yesterday and today fighting with my lack of knowledge and so far I'm loosing this battle...

Is it fun that 50 ohm (generator source impedance) + 16 ohm is 66 ohm. With this R  and 0.1uF C it give bit over 24Hz...   at least it’s a really funny coincidence, is it. Think about it, at least.   ;)

I don’t want to take a further stand because I haven’t seen (whole setup) the whole reality you have in every factor involved.

Of course , I feel stupid I missed that... Thanks for pointing it out!

However, I still don't understand why with. single channel and a T-bar,  the results were correct.

PS. I just tried with some more reasonable values (R=1kOhm, C0.1uF) and in both cases I got the correct results, Fc=1kHz.

Think about it.  Think where from come signal what is reference. 
Think this generator internal R1 and then your external RC circuit R2. 
Bode Plot reference channel  come from this point between R1 and R2 and is also input to your RC what is just this R2 and then C.

In this single channel method, the internal resistor R1 certainly acts  but since the reference point is after it, its effect is eliminated because BP compares only DUT in and DUT out.
This does not happen with 2 channel operation because your RC will not load this other channel what is used only as a reference.
The two-channel method has some important advantages, but also some disadvantages, and one disadvantage is exactly what happens in this case.

That makes sense. Thank you very much!

What would you consider as advantages in the two-channel method that the single channel doesn't have?

Here's a little seeds from which can to grow thoughts:


• When using low frequencies and simple objects such as simple RLC type LP, BP and HP filters and so on, just nothing or nearly nothing.
 
• But when we go to higher frequencies, things may concern impedance matching and signal travel time matching.
Example At 100 MHz, depending on the cable type, the travel time can be, for example, around 0.5 ns 10 cm.
With this 100MHz, this alone would mean, for example, a phase shift of about 18 degrees and naturally angle change when frequency change. Then if T-split to oscilloscope 1M 20pF input and to DUT example 50ohm input this branch going into the channel of the oscilloscope can cause quite a problem. At low frequencies it can be forgotten, but at higher frequencies it can look cluttered. Of course, there are ways to reduce problems but it also requires the right supplies, knowledge and experience.

The signal travel time of the reference channel should be the same as the travel time of the cables of the branch that goes through the DUT (If user is interested about phase).
When we split the signal into the DUT input and the BodePlot reference channel (Dut In), the T split can be also a bit problematic in impedance matching and for travel time.


• But then comes a thing that can’t be done at all other than using the generator’s 2-channel. Suppose a DUT causes a constant frequency shift (example as RF mixer).  With the single channel method, its analysis would be impossible.  (It need remember that this Siglent BodePlot is as frequency selective level meter and receiver frequency stepping sweep follow this frequency what it command from generator during frequency stepping sweep)   With the two-channel method, it is possible because you can put the generator in the tracking mode and use frequency offset for that slave channel. FRA do not know this slave channel frequency. It only listen this frequency what generator master channel is commanded to produce. (all three Dut Out channels follow this for measure signal and compare these to Dut In signal what can also think as reference signal (in default it is oscilloscope Ch1 but if user want it can change). 

• We can also meet test situations where we want the voltage level of the reference signal to remain suitably high (example for less noise for better phase detect)  or constant when, for example, DUT have high amplification and / or when we are analyzing something using variable level (level profile) during frequency sweep (Sweep Type / Vari-level).
Also in some times it is perhaps good to use different levels to Reference channel (dut in) for reduce channels Cross Talk effect. (example if we are looking some rf frequency  filter with high stop band attenuation so that reference channel cross talk to DutOut channel does not obscure it from view. 



Also it is important to select: Vout/Vin  or Vout in Display Amplitude menu and in Stimulus menu select right Load value (50, 75, 600, Hi-Z or free variable starting from 50ohm to 100kOhm).

In more complex tests and measurements than RLC filters for audio frequencies, there may be quite a few things to consider when setting up and how to connect the DUT to the system.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 09:25:16 am by rf-loop »
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Online pope

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2022, 11:26:02 am »
Please excuse my ignorance but I've been trying to run a simple bode plot of a lowpass filter (R=16Ohm, C=01.uF) with an Fc=100kHz.

I am using the 1104x-e with a sdg1032x and I'm having the following problem...

If I use only out1 of the AWG with a T-bar the results look fine. However if I try to use both channels of the AWG (with the tracking mode ON) the Fc is around 25kHz instead of the correct 100kHz.

Anyone knows what am I doing wrong? I've spent a lot of time yesterday and today fighting with my lack of knowledge and so far I'm loosing this battle...

Is it fun that 50 ohm (generator source impedance) + 16 ohm is 66 ohm. With this R  and 0.1uF C it give bit over 24Hz...   at least it’s a really funny coincidence, is it. Think about it, at least.   ;)

I don’t want to take a further stand because I haven’t seen (whole setup) the whole reality you have in every factor involved.

Of course , I feel stupid I missed that... Thanks for pointing it out!

However, I still don't understand why with. single channel and a T-bar,  the results were correct.

PS. I just tried with some more reasonable values (R=1kOhm, C0.1uF) and in both cases I got the correct results, Fc=1kHz.

Think about it.  Think where from come signal what is reference. 
Think this generator internal R1 and then your external RC circuit R2. 
Bode Plot reference channel  come from this point between R1 and R2 and is also input to your RC what is just this R2 and then C.

In this single channel method, the internal resistor R1 certainly acts  but since the reference point is after it, its effect is eliminated because BP compares only DUT in and DUT out.
This does not happen with 2 channel operation because your RC will not load this other channel what is used only as a reference.
The two-channel method has some important advantages, but also some disadvantages, and one disadvantage is exactly what happens in this case.

That makes sense. Thank you very much!

What would you consider as advantages in the two-channel method that the single channel doesn't have?

Here's a little seeds from which can to grow thoughts:


• When using low frequencies and simple objects such as simple RLC type LP, BP and HP filters and so on, just nothing or nearly nothing.
 
• But when we go to higher frequencies, things may concern impedance matching and signal travel time matching.
Example At 100 MHz, depending on the cable type, the travel time can be, for example, around 0.5 ns 10 cm.
With this 100MHz, this alone would mean, for example, a phase shift of about 18 degrees and naturally angle change when frequency change. Then if T-split to oscilloscope 1M 20pF input and to DUT example 50ohm input this branch going into the channel of the oscilloscope can cause quite a problem. At low frequencies it can be forgotten, but at higher frequencies it can look cluttered. Of course, there are ways to reduce problems but it also requires the right supplies, knowledge and experience.

The signal travel time of the reference channel should be the same as the travel time of the cables of the branch that goes through the DUT (If user is interested about phase).
When we split the signal into the DUT input and the BodePlot reference channel (Dut In), the T split can be also a bit problematic in impedance matching and for travel time.


• But then comes a thing that can’t be done at all other than using the generator’s 2-channel. Suppose a DUT causes a constant frequency shift (example as RF mixer).  With the single channel method, its analysis would be impossible.  (It need remember that this Siglent BodePlot is as frequency selective level meter and receiver frequency stepping sweep follow this frequency what it command from generator during frequency stepping sweep)   With the two-channel method, it is possible because you can put the generator in the tracking mode and use frequency offset for that slave channel. FRA do not know this slave channel frequency. It only listen this frequency what generator master channel is commanded to produce. (all three Dut Out channels follow this for measure signal and compare these to Dut In signal what can also think as reference signal (in default it is oscilloscope Ch1 but if user want it can change). 

• We can also meet test situations where we want the voltage level of the reference signal to remain suitably high (example for less noise for better phase detect)  or constant when, for example, DUT have high amplification and / or when we are analyzing something using variable level (level profile) during frequency sweep (Sweep Type / Vari-level).
Also in some times it is perhaps good to use different levels to Reference channel (dut in) for reduce channels Cross Talk effect. (example if we are looking some rf frequency  filter with high stop band attenuation so that reference channel cross talk to DutOut channel does not obscure it from view. 



Also it is important to select: Vout/Vin  or Vout in Display Amplitude menu and in Stimulus menu select right Load value (50, 75, 600, Hi-Z or free variable starting from 50ohm to 100kOhm).

In more complex tests and measurements than RLC filters for audio frequencies, there may be quite a few things to consider when setting up and how to connect the DUT to the system.

Thank you very much for the comprehensive reply. I'm gonna read your post a few times to digest it :)

The fact is that I only do audio so I maybe the bode plot measurements are a bit less complicated...
 

Online mawyatt

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2022, 02:52:20 pm »

• But then comes a thing that can’t be done at all other than using the generator’s 2-channel. Suppose a DUT causes a constant frequency shift (example as RF mixer).  With the single channel method, its analysis would be impossible.  (It need remember that this Siglent BodePlot is as frequency selective level meter and receiver frequency stepping sweep follow this frequency what it command from generator during frequency stepping sweep)   With the two-channel method, it is possible because you can put the generator in the tracking mode and use frequency offset for that slave channel. FRA do not know this slave channel frequency. It only listen this frequency what generator master channel is commanded to produce. (all three Dut Out channels follow this for measure signal and compare these to Dut In signal what can also think as reference signal (in default it is oscilloscope Ch1 but if user want it can change). 

Very powerful technique!!!

Best,
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Offline rf-loopTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #72 on: March 07, 2022, 05:40:39 am »
With the two-channel method, it is possible because you can put the generator in the tracking mode and use frequency offset for that slave channel.
Clarification. Example with SDG1032X generator.

Go to Utility [CH Copy Coupling] menu.
  For normal Track (same frequency and same amplitude) turn [Track On] and if you need phase offset then in this menu go to [PhaseDev] and adjust.

  For Ch2 tracking Ch1 with user defined offset(s).
  For Ch2 coupled to Ch1 using fixed frequency offset (Siglent language: deviation), leave [Track / Off] and push [Channel Coupling].
  In this Coupling menu set wanted fixed frequency offset (deviation). Select [FreqMode / Deviation] and set value, example 1500Hz.
  Then set [FreqCoup / On] and look that amplitude and phase coupling are Off.
  After this, Ch2 follow Ch1 with fixed frequency offset (deviation) but with amplitude you have set.
  If you want Ch2 follow also Ch1 amplitude just leave AmplDev value zero but turn also [AmpCoup / On].

I am not very satisfied how Siglent have named these. I like more if it is named as offset than deviation.


SDG1000X (as also other Siglent 2 channel SDG's) channels direct track or using channels coupling feature is nice for some things also with BodePlot when use generator two channels with it for some special things.
Frequency fixed freg offset or fixed ratio
Amplitude fixed level offset or fixed ratio
Phase fixed phase offset or fixed ratio
All these can separately turn off or on. All combinations can use.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 05:55:24 am by rf-loop »
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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #73 on: March 28, 2022, 12:43:52 pm »
Apologies if this has already been discussed but I can't find any information.

I would like to do the following and I don't know whether it's possible.

I would like to combine/add two signals (eg. on inputs 1 & 2) with the polarity inverted on one input (eg. on input 3) and do a bode plot of the combined signal. Is this possible with the 1104x-e?

Thanks!
 

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Re: Siglent SDS1x04X-E BodePlot II (SFRA) features and testings
« Reply #74 on: March 28, 2022, 01:21:14 pm »
Apologies if this has already been discussed but I can't find any information.

I would like to do the following and I don't know whether it's possible.

I would like to combine/add two signals (eg. on inputs 1 & 2) with the polarity inverted on one input (eg. on input 3) and do a bode plot of the combined signal. Is this possible with the 1104x-e?

Thanks!

In short, no.
 
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