Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.

[Martin72]

Forecast western markets release mid 2022.

With 12bit native resolution....
I´m very curious about the entry price then.

[Martin72]

Math channels 2  (note: Average and ERES are now rt acq modes, they are not channel math.)
FFT is 2M

3 acquisition modes.
- Auto (this is Normal default mode with user definable memory max limit.)
- Fixed samplerate
- Fixed memory length

2 Math channels...Hopefully this will be not the last state.
On my former rigol mso 5000, four math channels at the same time are traceable, without any remarkable slowdown of the system.
Also the rigol got digital filters(HP, LP, BP, etc...) as math functions.


I´ve used them for displaying a 3-phase sine from a 3-phase pwm signal.
I couldn´t do this on my sds2k+- Isn´t a real showstopper, but a nail in the flesh...
Hurts sometimes..

3 acquisition modes.
- Auto (this is Normal default mode with user definable memory max limit.)
- Fixed samplerate
- Fixed memory length

Interesting, know this from our newer waverunner scope from lecroy (and of course from the 6000HD).

[Performa01]

Here's an old screenshot just to demonstrate, what a proper 12 bit acquisition system can do.

Mind you, this is not from an SDS2000X HD, yet shows the same effect.

12Bit_VRes

You can see a rising ramp in Dots display mode and 100x vertical zoom.
You can count the dots (represented by short dashes) within one vertical division in the zoom window: it is 4.25 steps, i.e. 4.25 LSB.
This results in a total of 4.5 * 100 * 8 = 3400 LSB for the full screen hight of 8 divisions and still leaves about 0.8 divisions headroom above and below the visible screen area.

And you should value the evenly spaced steps, which hint on a very high linearity of a properly calibrated ADC. Nothing like the cheap solutions up to even 14 bits, where the dots would be all over the place because of the high DNL/INL, and the transfer curve might not even be guaranteed to be monotonic.

[rf-loop]

Here's an old screenshot just to demonstrate, what a proper 12 bit acquisition system can do.

Mind you, this is not from an SDS2000X HD, yet shows the same effect.

12Bit_VRes

You can see a rising ramp in Dots display mode and 100x vertical zoom.
You can count the dots (represented by short dashes) within one vertical division in the zoom window: it is 4.25 steps, i.e. 4.25 LSB.
This results in a total of 4.5 * 100 * 8 = 3400 LSB for the full screen hight of 8 divisions and still leaves about 0.8 divisions headroom above and below the visible screen area.

And you should value the evenly spaced steps, which hint on a very high linearity of a properly calibrated ADC. Nothing like the cheap solutions up to even 14 bits, where the dots would be all over the place because of the high DNL/INL, and the transfer curve might not even be guaranteed to be monotonic.

Yes
And about ENOB (typical) (Siglent published)

SDS6054 H12  500MHz model: 8.5
SDS2504X HD 500MHz model: 8.4

[mawyatt]

Here's an old screenshot just to demonstrate, what a proper 12 bit acquisition system can do.

Mind you, this is not from an SDS2000X HD, yet shows the same effect.

12Bit_VRes

You can see a rising ramp in Dots display mode and 100x vertical zoom.
You can count the dots (represented by short dashes) within one vertical division in the zoom window: it is 4.25 steps, i.e. 4.25 LSB.
This results in a total of 4.5 * 100 * 8 = 3400 LSB for the full screen hight of 8 divisions and still leaves about 0.8 divisions headroom above and below the visible screen area.

And you should value the evenly spaced steps, which hint on a very high linearity of a properly calibrated ADC. Nothing like the cheap solutions up to even 14 bits, where the dots would be all over the place because of the high DNL/INL, and the transfer curve might not even be guaranteed to be monotonic.

This is exactly why we require at least 12 bits directly from the ADC, very precise waveform evaluations not capable with an 8 bit ADC, even with Hi-Res to 10 bits. We were going to evaluate the new SDS6000 next week, hoping that it could meet our needs, but decided not to since the 6000 is only available in 8 bits here in US and don't think the various bit enhancement modes would be sufficient for our needs, and the LeCroy and Tektronix 12 bit scopes are likely outside our limited budgets.

So looking very forward to getting our hands on this True 12 bit ADC scope.

Best,

[gamalot]

Forecast western markets release mid 2022.

With 12bit native resolution....
I´m very curious about the entry price then.

Its price starts at 22,880 RMB (about 3,600 USD)

[2N3055]

Forecast western markets release mid 2022.

With 12bit native resolution....
I´m very curious about the entry price then.

Its price starts at 22,880 RMB (about 3,600 USD)

Again, who cares... those prices are useless to us outside of China...
When it gets released then we will know the price...

[Martin72]

Lower noise floor (e.g. 70 µVrms @ 1 mV/div, 500 MHz bandwidth, 50 ohms)

In comparison to much more expensive 12 bit scopes, same bandwith, 1mV/div/50ohms :

Wavesurfer 4000HD : 90µV
HDO 4000A : 100µV
HDO 6000B : 100µV
Tektronix MSO4 : 200µV

[Neutrion]

By now it should be clear that pricing in China and EU/rest of the world is quite different. So that is not important.

Hard to believe that something will be cheaper selling in the EU than in china.

Yet for new Siglent products when they hit western markets they have always been cheaper than in the China marketplace.

By marketplace do you mean a specific website, or general chinese domestic markets, including the cheapest sources?
How much percent is the general price difference?
It would be interesting if there would be any major difference, apart from the local VAT, and customs differences.

And regarding the scope: Which ADC is used?

[2N3055]

And regarding the scope: Which ADC is used?

And how would we know.. This whole discussion here is just a chat about datasheet. Nobody yet has one, much less have opened it.... There will be some time before it get released to the world...

[pope]

Excuse my ignorance but is there any chance that this scope would be able to do some oversampling to get more than 12-bit resolution? Maybe with a limit up to 100MHz like the plus series?

I'm not quite sure how oversampling works so forgive me if it's a silly question.

[Martin72]

12bit native resolution won´t be enough for your purposes ? 
Btw, Eres is also avaible on this scope.

[tautech]

Excuse my ignorance but is there any chance that this scope would be able to do some oversampling to get more than 12-bit resolution?

Without digging through the datasheet it's very likely if it has an additional 3 bits of ERES like all other modern Siglent DSO's.
Back a few posts is the datasheet link, have a hunt through it yourself. 

[pope]

12bit native resolution won´t be enough for your purposes ? 
Btw, Eres is also avaible on this scope.

I do strictly audio work so the more the merrier I guess...

[Neutrion]

And regarding the scope: Which ADC is used?

And how would we know.. This whole discussion here is just a chat about datasheet. Nobody yet has one, much less have opened it.... There will be some time before it get released to the world...

Well, there are some insiders here, so if it is not a secret they could already have asked. And if it is a secret, than having a teardown won't help either.

[2N3055]

And regarding the scope: Which ADC is used?

And how would we know.. This whole discussion here is just a chat about datasheet. Nobody yet has one, much less have opened it.... There will be some time before it get released to the world...

Well, there are some insiders here, so if it is not a secret they could already have asked. And if it is a secret, than having a teardown won't help either.

Again, nobody yet has one, much less have opened it.... 
But even insiders don't discuss or know some details. Need to know, and that. And insiders also have NDAs...
But as I said, fun as it is to wax poetic about this ADC and that ADC and what might be, I prefer they start shipping real product, and then we will see the price, the real life performance etc.. I expect it to be very interesting product, no doubt.
We'll see the details and cross that bridge when we get there.

[Performa01]

12bit native resolution won´t be enough for your purposes ? 
Btw, Eres is also avaible on this scope.

I do strictly audio work so the more the merrier I guess...

Just like the 8-bit DSOs, the resolution of the 12-bit variants can be further enhanced by using the ERES acquisition mode and or math function. Every half ERES bit adds one more full bit, hence doubling the resolution. However, acquisition memory as well as the display interface are limited to 16 bits, so ERES 2.0 acquisition or math is currently the maximum sensible setting on a 12-bit Siglent scope.

However, even when the ADC had the linearity to justify 16 bits of resolution, the 500+ MHz Frontend does not. You might be able to achieve harmonics of -70 dBc or even better, but certainly not -96 dB as one would expect in a 16-bit system.

This, together with the high noise below some 100 kHz because of the technical requirements of the LF-path in the split path input buffer (offset compensation, overload protection, high impedance FET input stage), prevents general purpose oscilloscopes from being the preferred solution for high fidelity audio work, no matter what the resolution is.

[Martin72]

Yep, that´s why I´ve bought this little thing, a few weeks ago.
You can´t have everything in one box.

[pope]

Yes, I realise that a dedicated Audio Analyzer would work better than any scope. I do have an "audio interface + software" setup and also I will probably buy something like a QA403 in the future since I can't afford an AP

So, do you believe that the the 12-bit is an overkill for basic audio work? I started with getting a 1104x-e to do basic audio stuff, then I kinda get convinced to get the 2000x plus and now the 12-bit is coming out. But quite frankly even the 2000x plus is a bit out of my budget, let alone the HD version...

Martin72, how do you like the Neutrik?

[egonotto]

Hello,

for audio work is perhaps a Analog Discovery with preamplifier or a PicoScope 4262 useful.

Best regards
egonotto

[Martin72]

Martin72, how do you like the Neutrik?

Unfortunately, I didn´t have the time to test it, maybe next weekend.
But I know it works like it was new and it´s specs are enough for my audio purposes, like the analyzer resolution of -96dB.
When testing it (on a Wangine WFA amplifier), I would make some pics, starting a new thread eventually.
Here it will be OT.

[Sighound36]

This going to be about raw horse power and a slick GUI

The Rogol as Martin pointed out doesn't slow down, both the Lecroy WR4000HD nand Siglent 6000 are pretty easy to slow down with out to much effort (embedded processing as opposed to raw cpu grunt?) RF loop could eleborate here.

I spent some time with the new 2Ghz 6000 (8 bit) at the weekend interesting has some nice features, though from perspective it does look and feel abit tacky and a squeaky handle (The same on the SNA5084X I have as well) pricing to interesting

One of the chaps has a 12 bit Chinese 6000 on here I believe perhaps we could set up a couple of benchmarks with the 4000HD I still have a couple here.

Good to see progress happening in these areas thanks for the information chaps

[2N3055]

One of the chaps has a 12 bit Chinese 6000 on here I believe perhaps we could set up a couple of benchmarks with the 4000HD I still have a couple here.

What do you have in mind?

[ozkarah]

Here are some SDS2000X HD spec data from the translated datasheet:
 






Looks like with the Signal Generator the only difference is at the max freq of Sin Wave. Other waveform limits seem to be the same.   


Here are the translated user manual and datasheet of SDS200X HD for anyone interested :
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1lPDsbwVmXD10H2aWjJmt9KDM1YGK1hvs?usp=sharing


PRICING:
I confirmed that SDS2000X HD models will be in the global market in July. However, couldn't gather any info on pricing. 
Does anyone have any update on the pricing information? ( or current price ratio of SDS2104X HD over SDS2104X PLUS in the Chinese market )

[Martin72]

I confirmed that SDS2000X HD models will be in the global market in July.

5 months to wait...argh..

Here are some SDS2000X HD spec data

2 things....3 things about:

The 500Mhz bandwith....When it´s not possible to have this bandwith with all channels active on a 4-channel device, you shouldn´t offer this.
Like my sds2k+, it gives you the feeling to have something limited, not finished - Couldn´t describe it better in a foreign language.
Everybody knows about the limitations in samplerate and memory in general what 2/4 channels concerns and don´t have a problem with it.
But bandwith...Unique thing.
Plus: the model labeling, sds2504...sounds like 500Mhz 4 channels, that´s not true.
Correct labeling should be 2502, although it got 4 channels.

Then the integrated awg...
I´m not a fan of it in general, this is too rudimental to be a serious alternative to stand-alone units.
So just leave it..
The mentioned specs are "horrible", 25Mhz instead of the 50Mhz the sds2k+ got.
Weak amplitude, very raw functions in general, 25Mhz only for sinewaves, 10Mhz square and, if I saw it right, poor 300Khz for triangle, still no FM/AM functions...Leave it.
When you buy a scope for 2500...3000€, you don´t need a internal awg, you already got one.
Apart from this all, when it will come, I´ll buy it immediately.
A true native 12bit scope for a entry price under the sds5000 series ( should be, otherwise the 5000 series makes no sense anymore apart the max bandwith)...
The RTB2000 series was called "A true gamechanger", well, this will be the next.