Siglent SDS2000X Plus - Bugs / Missing Features / Feature Requests

[2N3055]

One other thing that drives me crazy is the very short Auto trigger timeout, making Auto trigger practically useless for events slower repeating more rare that about every 10 ms. That timeout should be configurable.

Do you mean trigger Holdoff ?
Its range is: By time：8 ns ～ 30 s (8 ns step) By event：1 ~ 10⁸

We also have available 2 Zone triggers.

No, he means trigger repeat frequency when in Auto trigger mode, when there is no trigger on input..

Keysight has some kind of adaptive interval, changing with timebase. It is quite clever, but not perfect all the time. I also wish manufacturers would give us configuration of that parameter...

[roberthh]

Yes, I mean trigger holdoff. And that does not help. The time a trigger event stays visible in Auto mode is simply too short.

[2N3055]

Yes, I mean trigger holdoff. And that does not help. The time a trigger event stays visible in Auto mode is simply too short.

That is not it.

Holdoff is used to ignore valid trigger events in normal trigger mode (not auto) because you want to have trigger events sparser than what they are occuring naturally.. It is fastest time between actual triggers.

Auto mode creates false trigger events when there are none. It will be defined as timeout from previous trigger event. That will define how long you will have previous capture on the screen in Auto mode.. If valid trigger even happens it will update immediately.

It gets confusing, Tektronix scopes have different behaviour and frequency of auto, to the point that there was false claim that Keysight Auto is buggy, just because it had different frequency and behaviour fro what they were used on Tek....

[tautech]

Yes, I mean trigger holdoff. And that does not help. The time a trigger event stays visible in Auto mode is simply too short.

Repetitive trigger events or single events ?
Maybe Normal or Single trigger modes would be better suited to your needs.

We need remember the trigger suite of our scopes is our most powerful tool and mastering its use for complex needs is where we should spend a good amount of time learning to properly do so.
This is where I have found the STB3 or a AWG useful with their ranges of complex waveforms to experiment on with trigger settings.
Driving the rest of the scope is easy by comparison however there are other tricks we can use like Zoom mode (auto or dedicated) to capture extended waveform records and then work within the capture in the zoomed window.

Anyways, this is not bugs discussion so should be in the SDS2000X Plus main thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/

[roberthh]

I'm talking about repetitive but not frequent events. And I worked with quite a few Oscilloscope types and makes in the past, cheap ones and expensive ones, including all the "Big names", to consider this Auto trigger behavior as something at least strange. Or should I call it Auto Non-Trigger. It allows you to see that there is some signal on the channel, but you cannot tell whether a certain trigger setting is suitable, simple because it disappears immediately. It works for fast repetitive signals, but not for slow repetition rates.

For that reason I am using Normal or Single trigger mode. But wouldn't it be nice to have a more useful Auto trigger mode?

And, b.t.w., the title of this thread is: "Siglent SDS2000X Plus - Bugs / Missing Features / Feature Requests"
So let's call is a feature requests.

[tautech]

I'm talking about repetitive but not frequent events. And I worked with quite a few Oscilloscope types and makes in the past, cheap ones and expensive ones, including all the "Big names", to consider this Auto trigger behavior as something at least strange. Or should I call it Auto Non-Trigger. It allows you to see that there is some signal on the channel, but you cannot tell whether a certain trigger setting is suitable, simple because it disappears immediately. It works for fast repetitive signals, but not for slow repetition rates.

For that reason I am using Normal or Single trigger mode. But wouldn't it be nice to have a more useful Auto trigger mode?

And, b.t.w., the title of this thread is: "Siglent SDS2000X Plus - Bugs / Missing Features / Feature Requests"
So let's call is a feature requests.

You need write this up in depth. Screenshot examples that can be replicated and description of settings used so any of us can replicate what you see.
Put it all in a PDF if necessary.

[roberthh]

A screen shot of a non-trigger event is hardly useful. And in Auto mode there is hardly anything to capture because the screen changes during capture time. But I describe the set-up.
a) Signal source: The built-in AWG with pulse wave type, pulse width 200µs.
b) Oscilloscope in Auto mode. Trigger rising edge.
    Acquire depth 2M, 1ms/div,

- repeating the signal every 50ms or faster: fine
- repeating the signal between every 100ms and 200ms. Most events are displayed at the trigger position, some not.
- repeating the signal at 350ms or more rarely:  Signal is hardly ever visible. Sometimes it appear on the screen, but not triggered.

I withdraw my comment about the holdoff time setting not being effective at all. Setting holdhoff such that

holdoff_time < period < holdoff_time + 200ms
holdoff starting at last trigger,

I get a stable signal. That repeats for integer multiples of the period time. So if you know the signal, you can make the device trigger stable in Auto mode. If not, you have a harder time.

[tautech]

So if you know the signal, you can make the device trigger stable in Auto mode. If not, you have a harder time.

This is where adding some Persistence is useful. 

[roberthh]

I revert my comment about holdoff again. That worked for 3Hz but not for 2 Hz or less.

And yes, persistence helps to see if anything happens. But still Auto trigegr behaves like non-trigger.

[tautech]

I revert my comment about holdoff again. That worked for 3Hz but not for 2 Hz or less.

And yes, persistence helps to see if anything happens. But still Auto trigegr behaves like non-trigger.

Consult the datasheet. 
Hint; different trigger coupling type selections should help you.

There might also be tips in the Help menus, try them. IIRC long press of any button gets you into Help.

[Martin72]

Manual "says" :

Auto: An internal timer triggers after a preset timeout period if no trigger has been found so that the oscilloscope continously updates whether a trigger happens or not.
Auto trigger is suitable for unknown signals or DC signals.
Note:
In Auto mode, if the signal satisfies the trigger conditions but cannot trigger the oscilloscope stably, it may be that the interval between two trigger events exceeds the timeout period.
Try Normal mode in this case

[roberthh]

Thank you both both of you for your feedback. I'll stick with normal mode with this oscilloscope.

Other devices worke better auto mode. But these do not have the sequence and history properties. So they could align an event to the trigger when it happened in a time window a large as the acquisition depth. That was not limited to the capture size for the window.

[2N3055]

This is why I'm saying that timeout time of Auto mode should be user configurable in same manner like hold off..

[rf-loop]

Thank you both both of you for your feedback. I'll stick with normal mode with this oscilloscope.

Other devices worke better auto mode. But these do not have the sequence and history properties. So they could align an event to the trigger when it happened in a time window a large as the acquisition depth. That was not limited to the capture size for the window.

My opinion is opposite but also same, depending.... Many other scopes takes too long time before they start acquisition after last valid trigger event. And these many other scopes also do not have any adjustment for set this waiting time. I personally have used nearly 60 years enormous amount of oscilloscopes including toy class and mostly professional scopes up to state of art models.

Honestly I have never meet any real problem related to this auto trig mode timing. If it have been too short in some case, I really know how to use and setup scope for do my works. And vice versa if it have been too long. When use mixed set of different scopes it is natural that some scopes work different and every scope or what ever instrument - use need know it. Human have brain for it.

Of course it is "nice to have" if this trigger event waiting time is adjustable in scope. What is right place for this adjustment? Where in menu system? What is default value? What are min and max limits? Now if user set it for some value he just need,  then next time he use scope it is just wrong.
In Siglent this time is bit more short than in many others but least I have heard ranting when noobs use scope and they start measure some DC and then they are barking because scope is so slow... and his DMM is more fast.

It is so simple. If this time is too short and specially if signal under test is variable so that trigger event repeating is just around this time some times bit slower aor some times bit faster there is exactly one and fast solution. Push one button. Trig Normal what is main mode in oscilloscope when user know what he is doing and what is signal under test. But because scope is for analyze "unknown" signals it is good its default is Trig Auto. Just after then User can see what is signal he can set trigger and continue with Normal mode.  Even its name tell, it IS Normal. But "many kind of peoples"  like  Auto mode and then they have made this practice as "Normal".  Training...training...training... and finally Normal is Normal and Trig Auto is not normal. Is is "Normal" for "probing randomly - without any further thinking this - and that"

Final 

* Siglent, Please add "Trig Auto" mode trigger waiting time adjustable or least selectable fast and slow  (fast as it is now and slow as old Tek) 

* For users, Normal = Trig Normal  If your "normal" is  "Trig Auto". Think carefully why you have stopped learning curve for this level.


More wishes.

* Please finally wake up and add manual [Trig] aka [Force Trig] button.

Not so seriously but more seriously... development need develop...

[2N3055]

@rf-loop,

I agree with you that Auto/Normal is very confusing to beginners.  Or even sometimes to some that used single scope from single brand for many years, and they switch to other brand and they think something is broken..

I would like to reiterate on your points.

1. Force trigger button (Manual trigger) - I also don't understand how some manufacturers don't get it that is most needed and basic function. It's a scope, not a TV. It needs Force trigger button, a physical one. That is how you make it show something when in Normal mode and it's not triggering. So you press Force to see if you're not triggering, or you are triggering and trace is off the screen...
2. With that said, PLEASE, scope NEEDS physical trigg'ed light that blinks when you're triggering, so you can see something blinking with your peripheral vision. SDS2000x+ actually has it (Yeeeee), but there are some quite expensive scopes that don't have it.  I'm looking at you Keysight, DSOX3000T doesn't have Trigg'ed light.  I connected a LED with a resistor to the Trig out BNC to see something. If you made a stupid decision to not put light, then at least make LED in Run (or Single) blink (or switch it off for 50ms) when it triggers. Make something, anything, blink when it triggers. Please.
3. To answer to RF-loop, place to put Auto trig timeout would be in the same menu where you select Normal/Auto and make it Normal/Auto/User timeout.
4. I was even thinking, scope could calculate short term trigger frequency (if there is existing trigger) and make Auto timeout larger than that, slowing it down adaptively to make it automatically Normal trigger if there are trigger events existing. And if it timeouts once, start auto triggering faster, until there is trigger event....And then again slow down,

I agree with you that Normal mode is , well, normal, but many users do consider Auto default mode. That is aggravated by the fact that most scopes come with Auto as default, because they want scope to show at least something on the screen, even nonsense, so users don't think it doesn't work...
Most people simply scope around the circuit, just to see what's there. And they expect (wrongly, I agree) it to behave like a multimeter that will autorange and switch modes.  Picoscopes even have autoranging for vertical channels, to make it behave just like multimeter. To me it's actually kinda confusing. I expect scopes NOT to behave like that. But, I did use it few times and I could see it being useful if something was made for the scale numbers would be bigger and more visible, so you can easily see the scale..

[tautech]

Most people simply scope around the circuit, just to see what's there. And they expect (wrongly, I agree) it to behave like a multimeter that will autorange and switch modes.  Picoscopes even have autoranging for vertical channels, to make it behave just like multimeter. To me it's actually kinda confusing. I expect scopes NOT to behave like that. But, I did use it few times and I could see it being useful if something was made for the scale numbers would be bigger and more visible, so you can easily see the scale..

That's an interesting concept and if we consider using the Autoset feature capabilities autoranging could be added into the UI as a user selectable option for vertical attenuation.
Coarse, Fine, Autorange
 

[kladit]

@all

SDS-2104x-PLUS firmware 1.3.7R5

I tried to use the bode-plot feature of the scope for the first time
and discovered some oddities.

I used the internal AWG connected its output to an 50 Ohm resisitive
splitter and fed its output to ch1 and ch2 via 2 BNC-cables of equal
length.

So the DUT is just one of the cables.

Sweep is from 25.5 to 30 MHz.

I expected two straight lines. One for phase and one for amplitude.

I got them, see bode-good.jpg. But more often I got something like
bode-bad.jpg in different variations.

Same behavior shows up with an external SDG6052x AWG instead of
the internal one.


Appended is another plot made with the external AWG, SDG6052x.

Here a steep HP-filter with an fg of 1.8 MHz got plotted.
To save time the measurement was stopped as there were enough amplitude jumps in the passband visible.

The HP-characteristic is visible but also these strange jumps.

Is it me or the scope(+ built in /external AWG) doing something wrong?

[roberthh]

Did you set the input from the generator to the scope to 50 Ohm. Otherwise you'll see any kind of resonance from the cable.

[roberthh]

I recall having seen similar figures when acquiring was set to sequence mode on.

[roberthh]

About Auto-Trigger and other triggers, just to beat that (dead) Pony again.

I made a few tests on the frequency of the sweeps in Auto-Trigger mode depending on Memory depth and time base. So here is the first table, Trig frequency in relation to Mem depth and Window size. The column Sweep Time/period tells, how much of the "real" time id covered by the traces.

Code: [Select]

    Mem depth     Window size  Trig frequency   Sweep time/period
                                @ 100µs/div           
       20k            20k            805             80,5%                       
      200k            200k           642             64,2%                       
       2M              2M            215             21,5%                       
       20M             2M            215             21,5%                       
      200M             2M            215             21,5%                       

Next table: Trigger frequency depending on the time base setting both for standard acquisition modes and sequence mode, taken with 20k memory depth.

Code: [Select]

20k Aquiring dept                                                               
Timebase sec/div     Trig freq   sweep time/period   Trig freq     sweep time/period
                   Standard Acq                     Sequenc Acq
     10E-09            22222           0,2%            303000         3,0%       
     100E-09           21790           2,2%            333000         33,3%     
      1E-06             8900           8,9%             82000         82,0%     
     10E-06             4329          43,3%             8700          87,0%     
     100E-06            805           80,5%              889          88,9%     
      1E-03             30,6          30,6%              89           89,0%     
     10E-03             8,7           87,0%              8,9          89,0%     
     100E-03            0,88          88,0%             0,89          89,0%     
The trigger frequency was taken from the Trig Out signal and determined with a counter and PC logic analyzer. Interesting is, that the real time coverage gets pretty low for small time/div values.
What was also kind of unexpected to see was, that for low time/div rates the sweeps come in bursts with a period of about 30 ms. See the attached picture,

[kladit]

roberth, thank you.

The scope indeed was in sequence mode.

Silly me 

Aquisition set to normal mode and it worked like a charm ..

[roberthh]

You're welcome. I knew it since I made the same mistake before.

Nevertheless it would be an improvement if the firmware disables sequence mode upon entering the Bode Plot feature.

[kladit]

I already phoned the same wish to Batronix.

And I hope tautech will write it to Siglent as well.

[Coder69]

I have owned my 2104X-plus for 3 weeks now and found some problems (Latest Firmware: 1.3.7R5)
Problem 1:
Single shot in combination with zone trigger:
When I tested a square wave output in an embedded system, I noticed a voltage drop in the signal maybe every five
seconds. I wanted to have a closer look on this and enabled the zone trigger. Everything worked perfect at least in normal
trigger  mode. As soon I switched to single shot no signal could be acquired. Switching back to normal mode everything was
OK again and I got new pictures every 5 seconds.
Can anybody confirm this or do I make a mistake here ?
Find attached a screenshot of the signal

Problem 2:
After shutting-down the scope and rebooting not all settings are restored
I moved the position of decoder signal up and enabled the result list. After rebooting at least these settings weren't restored.


I also have some wishes for the scope:
-------------------------------------------
- Filter functions
- Support for a WLAN USB-stick
- adding a library for the labels which you can enable for the channels. Find attached a (bad) photo of my Rigol MSO 5000 in office

[tautech]

I have owned my 2104X-plus for 3 weeks now and found some problems:
Problem 1:
Single shot in combination with zone trigger:
When I tested a square wave output in an embedded system, I noticed a voltage drop in the signal maybe every five
seconds. I wanted to have a closer look on this and enabled the zone trigger. Everything worked perfect at least in normal
trigger  mode. As soon I switched to single shot no signal could be acquired. Switching back to normal mode everything was
OK again and I got new pictures every 5 seconds.
Can anybody confirm this or do I make a mistake here ?
Find attached a screenshot of the signal

Problem 2:
After shutting-down the scope and rebooting not all settings are restored
I moved the position of decoder signal up and enabled the result list. After rebooting at least these settings weren't restored.


I also have some wishes for the scope:
-------------------------------------------
- Filter functions
- Support for a WLAN USB-stick
- adding a library for the labels which you can enable for the channels. Find attached a (bad) photo of my Rigol MSO 5000 in office

Please Edit your post to include the firmware version.