Siglent SDS2000X Plus - Bugs / Missing Features / Feature Requests

[hj]

Hi all you scope veterans, greetings from a digital scope newby,

not only based on all the comments in this forum I made a purchase decision some months ago and got me a 2104x (and missed the MSO bundle offer ).
It turned out that one of the German Siglent box movers is right around the corner so I could pick it up the same day, anyway...

I'd like to know your opinion on this because I have no experience wether this is significant or neglectable:
YT user 'elektronik' showed this when he reviewed a 1204x-e I believe. Trigger on a sine wave and scale it out (800mVpp with 100mV/div). Now switch to fine scale and increase the vertical step by step until the waveform moves out of screen and take a single shot on each step. Now reduce the resolution and inspect the peaks. You will notice that up to a certain point the waveform (in my case 94mV/) is still captured without clipping. Does that mean the scope doesn't give full 8 bit resolution within the vertical graticules? Shouldn't the signal clip when it is moved right out of the last graticule? Is this normal DSO behaviour or Siglent special?

Some more comments/questions towards Siglent:

1) If I set bus encoding to ASCII, why are values up to 0x1f not shown in their short form (or at least hex, guess everybody can do a 'man ascii'), whats the point of displaying '[]'? Bonus question: Why can't the bus table show both ASCII and hex (or any other numerical encoded) values simultaneously?

2) Please cherry-pick the axis label code from the X5k series, printf("%4.04f") is seriously distracting.

Other than that, I appreciate your support and improving the scope and UI.

Joachim

[hj]

Just froze my scope when misusing it as file system viewer (latest FW):

1) Stop scope (won't freeze when running, event loop not suspended?)
2) Insert USB drive and browse into USB drive via update
3) Wife calls, leave the file selector box open and wait until the screen saver kicks in: Et voila

Jo

[Martin72]

Bugs in the FFT since the last firmware update:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3708991/#msg3708991

Plus the annoying axis-labeling thing with the useless 4 digit after the comma (will hide some screen information), and:

You couldn´t deactivate the axis labeling function in the FFT (maybe other math functions too)..

FFT, wanted feature when it´s not a bug:
Vertical scaling, variable or finer scaling should be possible in dB mode - actually it goes 5, 10, 20dB....

[Deichgraf]

Hi all,

It's again really disappointing to see such new FFT bug and after one year waiting for a more "bug-free" and stable FW.
I'm wondering, if any testing is done at all ... in the previous FW we had e.g. the 1X / 10X bug which could be found quite easily, if someone at the Siglent test division would make some regression testing and using the simple switches systematically in their tests before each new alpha/beta release!?

I don't feel comfortable with this device anymore - before you like to measure an unknown signal or make an analysis, you have to read through this or other threads, checking if something popped up and may have an impact on what you like to measure.

Thanks to the competent community here, which is testing and reporting in a professional way - we know quite fast, what's behind the scene and FW release - many thanks for that!
I'm not blaming for the status of a FW shortly after the release of the new device, but things should improve, e.g. fixing errors before implementing new features...

How is your confidence level in this FW and scope today?

Regards

[Martin72]

Hi,

This scope was launched in early 2020 - This is like "yesterday" happen, in comparison to a normal lifetime of a model.
I´m one of the very first owner, in this time it never hangs/freeze or something else, that could make it useless to work with.
Of course, there was, there is and there will be bugs in it - Nothing is perfect and for example, I´ve found several ones on our (company) 15000€ scope.
But you can work with it.
And surprise, you can "even" work with the siglent too, every day.
The known bugs are no showstoppers and yes, actually the FFT have a little bug and I´m sure, it wouldn´t take again a year from siglent to fix it.

before you like to measure an unknown signal or make an analysis, you have to read through this or other threads, checking if something popped up and may have an impact on what you like to measure.

Do you own this scope ? How often couldn´t you trust the measures from it because it could be a bug or the bug is in front of the scope?

[2N3055]

To put things into perspective, here is the bug list of two manufacturers for two scopes that people seem trust implicitly without reserve.
Retail price for those 2 is easily 5x more..

I bold bugs directly pertaining to accuracy of data and basic functions of the scope...
Warning: lots of bugs, and serious ones... I hope people don't loose their trust... What do we do then?

FIRST:

Bug Fixes
This software revision includes the following Bug fixes:
- Corrected the D3000BDLA ultimate bundle license to include the NFC trigger option.
- Changed the My Support Subscriptions table to show N/A for the Support Expiration and Status of legacy perpetual licenses, versus Expired.
- Changed the Installed Options section of the instrument web page to show N/A for the Support Expiration and Status of a legacy perpetual license, versus Expired.
- Networked printing via CUPS print server works correctly

Bug Fixes
This software revision includes the following Bug fixes:
- Corrected the NRZ serial decode from having an extra bit than the frame size when the Start-Bit is 0.
- Corrected “:MEASure:DELay:DEFine” for not accepting a definition that includes the “FALLing” edge parameter.
- Corrected the Reference Waveform data (.h5) from incorrectly saving data with twice the delay where is a delay on the displayed waveform.
- Corrected ":MEAS:SHOW?" always returning "1" regardless of the actual state.
- Fixed various LIN LDF file-parsing bugs.
- Fixed various issues related to the N7026A probe.

Bug Fixes
 This software revision includes the following Bug fixes:
– An issue with handling CAN DBC signed integers has been corrected.
– Two channel measurements made with the N2820A probe are now functioning correctly.

Bug Fixes
 This software revision includes the following Bug fixes:
– Digital channel skew has been corrected.
– Horizontal scale indicators at the bottom of the graticule now update appropriately regardless of the chosen time reference.
– An issue with calibrating an N275XA probe has been corrected.
– An issue with the MEAS:RES query ignoring the count parameter has been corrected.

Bug Fixes
 This software revision includes the following Bug fixes:
– Fixed an issue where the user’s selected language was not remembered after the power was cycled.
– Fixed an issue where an attached mouse would not operate correctly after the power was cycled.

Bug Fixes
This software revision includes the following Bug fixes:
– Fixed an issue where in certain circumstances the Serial Lister would not properly display some UART data.
– Fixed an issue where in certain circumstances the Peak-Peak measurement was incorrect.

Bug Fixes
This software revision includes the following Bug fixes:
– Fixed incorrect DVM values in rare circumstances after toggling channel states.
– Fixed error messages when loading CAN FD .dbc files with data fields longer than 8 bytes.
– Fixed crash when saving H5 files with long path strings.
– Improved I2C decode reliability when SCL is acquired on a digital channel.

Bug Fixes
This software revision includes the following Bug fixes:
– Improved USB device mode stability when booting.
– Fixed various LIN symbol file (LDF) parsing errors.
– Fixed 50Ω probe calibration issue with the Power Analysis application.
– Improved performance when entering the IO menu.
– Fixed FFT vertical units when using a 50Ω current probe.


SECOND:
(not that this manufacturers dishonestly calls them "Improvements" not defects  ... At least first one is honestly admitting they are bugs (defects) and owns the obligation for fixing them.

V01.600 Solved: Trigger level knob has no function after using zoom or QuickMeas in roll mode and turn back to normal time base mode.
V01.600 Solved: Wrong waveform data in zoom window when zoom is activated in roll initial mode and then the acquisition is stopped before the waveform window is complete.
V01.600 Solved: Sweep type 'Triangle' does not work correctly with RTM-B6.
V01.600 Solved: Wrong clipping math waveforms, depending on history of math and source setup.
V01.600 Solved: Sporadic incorrect data in math waveform.
V01.600 Solved: Wrong value in numeric input keypad after clear and new input that starts with '-'.
V01.600 Solved: Display of decode format bus 1 in ARINC 429 configuration window even when bus 2 to 4 is selected.
V01.600 Solved: No function of 'Find Threshold' button in ARINC 429 configuration window.
V01.600 Solved: A few instruments may irregularly show spikes in waveforms, depending on selected time base.
V01.600 Solved: In option RTM-K31 Switching Loss position cursors 3, 4 and 5 did not change measurement values.
V01.600 Solved: In rare cases, trigger jitter with positive trigger time and trigger point not in acquisition.
V01.600 Solved: Amplitude measurements with amplitude less than 7mV did not work.
V01.600 Solved: Wrong function of 'Wait on Trigger' Bit in status operation register after Break followed by Single.

V01.550 Solved: Overshoot calculated 0 % with more than one signal period.
V01.550 Solved: Sometimes Autoset sets wrong vertical scaling values with input frequencies lower than 500 Hz. It depends on control history.
V01.550 Solved: Wrong horizontal position zoom if zoom tool used when menu is open.

V01.501 Solved: Universal rotary knob did not work in Horizontal menu on Zoom Scale.
V01.501 Solved: Zero Adjust value in channel menu was lost with preset.
V01.501 Solved: Wrong waveform offset in XY diagram with measurement and statistic table

V01.400 Solved: Noise on signal of analog generator remains after function change.
V01.400 Solved: Firmware blocker after autoset in roll mode.
V01.400 Solved: Wrong waveform data display after stop in roll mode and QuickMeas.
V01.400 Solved: Setting ZA15 option for active probe RT-ZDxx did not work.
V01.400 Solved: Math function with inactive channels did not work.
V01.400 Solved: Wrong data display in XY mode and roll mode with high resolution active.
V01.400 Solved: Firmware blocker when waveform saving with 'Vis. Channels' or when saving bus table.
V01.400 Solved: Parallel bus displays more than one label in a large bus honeycomb.
V01.400 Solved: No possible waveform scaling after single in roll mode.
V01.400 Solved: Measurement delay did not work with reference as source.

V01.200 Solved: For active high-voltage differential probes RT-ZHD as well as power rail probe RTZPR the zero offset of the probes was not corrected automatically by the instrument.
V01.200 Solved: Probe attenuation was lost after preset with active probes.
V01.200 Solved: In XY mode channel unit A was not considered for grid annotation in diagrams directly.

[Deichgraf]

Hi Martin,

I have to clarify my previous post - I'm disappointed about this ... FW release - expecting a little bit more w.r.t. tested functions and not to have such a glitch in the FFT, which could be found by automated test means, if this not only a display/visualization error!?
And don't misunderstand my point, it's not regarding new or improved functions and efforts spend by Siglent into this etc., but testing and releasing FW with such a visual error and similar to 1x/10x divider in the previous FW.

This scope was launched in early 2020 - This is like "yesterday" happen, in comparison to a normal lifetime of a model.

How long is the typical time to wait for a bug free product in this category?
I know the answer, just challenging 

I´m one of the very first owner, in this time it never hangs/freeze or something else, that could make it useless to work with.
Of course, there was, there is and there will be bugs in it - Nothing is perfect and for example, I´ve found several ones on our (company) 15000€ scope.
But you can work with it.
And surprise, you can "even" work with the siglent too, every day.
The known bugs are no showstoppers and yes, actually the FFT have a little bug and I´m sure, it wouldn´t take again a year from siglent to fix it.

Nothing to defend here ... I'm not saying that the SDS2000X+ is bad, useless or compare it with high(er) end equipments and their bugs.

Do you own this scope ? How often couldn´t you trust the measures from it because it could be a bug or the bug is in front of the scope?

Yes, I own this scope since 08/2020 and use it for hobby and educational purposes - no cutting edge things, but I want/like to trust the measurements ... by somehow.
And I totally agree, that most of the time, the problem is sitting in front of the device ;-)

My post was more related to FW testing before release (which is for me also related to confidence / trust) - and I don't want to compare this with other brands / models / prices, because I own this one.

Regards

[nctnico]

To put things into perspective, here is the bug list of two manufacturers for two scopes that people seem trust implicitly without reserve.
Retail price for those 2 is easily 5x more..

I bold bugs directly pertaining to accuracy of data and basic functions of the scope...
Warning: lots of bugs, and serious ones... I hope people don't loose their trust... What do we do then?

For completeness you also need to list the bugs that where introduced in new firmware versions (=functionality that worked before is now broken). As others pointed out: regression testing is extremely important to make sure fixing one bug doesn't introduce another one.

[2N3055]

To put things into perspective, here is the bug list of two manufacturers for two scopes that people seem trust implicitly without reserve.
Retail price for those 2 is easily 5x more..

I bold bugs directly pertaining to accuracy of data and basic functions of the scope...
Warning: lots of bugs, and serious ones... I hope people don't loose their trust... What do we do then?

For completeness you also need to list the bugs that where introduced in new firmware versions (=functionality that worked before is now broken). As others pointed out: regression testing is extremely important to make sure fixing one bug doesn't introduce another one.

I don't have to do anything.
Those two other manufacturers also didn't document what are new and what are old bugs..
They also had few regressions along the way.

I was replying to this sentence:
"
I don't feel comfortable with this device anymore - before you like to measure an unknown signal or make an analysis, you have to read through this or other threads, checking if something popped up and may have an impact on what you like to measure.
"
There are also some bugs Keysight decided not to fix, for instance... I reported one myself..
As I said, to put things in perspective...

Speaking off, Keysight 3000T has max 64K points FFT, and R&S RTM3000 has 128K FFT.  RTM3000 does have very nice spectrogram option though. That cost as much as whole SDS2104X+ scope.
I mean,  just to put things in perspective...

Keysight has "niggles", when Siglent or Rigol make mistake, nearby star will collapse..
You, know, to be fair and put things into perspective..

[Deichgraf]

Hi 2N3055,

why do you start to bring other brands and their bugs into the discussion, and especially the point, that even more expensive gears have much worse bugs!?
I think this is the wrong perspective?

I mean,  just to put things in perspective...

I don't care all the other brands and their problems, I made my decision for Siglent and the SDS2000X+ and like and appreciate new FW releases with bug fixing, but not introducing new once on existing/already working functions. So back to the point about testing and releasing ...

Keysight has "niggles", when Siglent or Rigol make mistake, nearby star will collapse..
You, know, to be fair and put things into perspective..

Why should a star collapse ... where is the unfair point here and in which perspective?

I was replying to this sentence:
"
I don't feel comfortable with this device anymore ...

Please, strike anymore and replace it with currently ... maybe with the next FW, everything is right, fingers crossed 
And I didn't noticed, that you were replying to my sentence before?

Regards

[thinkfat]

Software quality is not about not having any bugs. Every piece of complex software will have bugs. Quality is about how you deal with them, in terms of tracking, fixing, testing and communicating them. Test instruments are not just hardware, their worth nowadays is determined by mostly software. Some vendors have understood this. Others are still struggling. Siglent and Rigol are in the latter group. Just look at their release notes.

I think they will come to terms eventually. They must, if they want to have a fighting chance for the lucrative corporate accounts.

[2N3055]

Software quality is not about not having any bugs. Every piece of complex software will have bugs. Quality is about how you deal with them, in terms of tracking, fixing, testing and communicating them. Test instruments are not just hardware, their worth nowadays is determined by mostly software. Some vendors have understood this. Others are still struggling. Siglent and Rigol are in the latter group. Just look at their release notes.

I think they will come to terms eventually. They must, if they want to have a fighting chance for the lucrative corporate accounts.

Agree.. It's just that, on average, they are not worse than big brands are nowadays... QED..
That is my point.

Legendary days of some big brands where devices were made pretty much perfect are long gone.
Both fact that today's devices are immensely more complicated, featured and sophisticated and still have to be sold at much  lower prices that comparatively simple devices of the past contribute to this.
Even big brands, while still expensive, are charging much less than they used to, for devices that are harder to make.

And talking about Siglent, they are improving all the time..

[2N3055]

Hi 2N3055,

why do you start to bring other brands and their bugs into the discussion, and especially the point, that even more expensive gears have much worse bugs!?
I think this is the wrong perspective?

I mean,  just to put things in perspective...

I don't care all the other brands and their problems, I made my decision for Siglent and the SDS2000X+ and like and appreciate new FW releases with bug fixing, but not introducing new once on existing/already working functions. So back to the point about testing and releasing ...

Keysight has "niggles", when Siglent or Rigol make mistake, nearby star will collapse..
You, know, to be fair and put things into perspective..

Why should a star collapse ... where is the unfair point here and in which perspective?

I was replying to this sentence:
"
I don't feel comfortable with this device anymore ...

Please, strike anymore and replace it with currently ... maybe with the next FW, everything is right, fingers crossed 
And I didn't noticed, that you were replying to my sentence before?

Regards

To be clear, I'm not defending anybody's mistakes. Just pointing out that nobody should be measured by different metrics. Siglent should and will fix this.
They probably like it much less than you do. People like to be told they did a good job, not the vice versa..

"Putting things in perspective" is an English phrase meaning "to make sure that all things are viewed with same eyes" in this context.

R&S RTM3000 series, coming from very respectable manufacturer with very fancy pedigree, had much worse bugs during its first 3 years of existence and haven't had a firmware update in 18 months (a year and a half), despite having unresolved issues since release.. for instance "Sometimes no trigger when roll mode switched off. Workaround: Change vertical scale of trigger source"..

And nobody started making statements (like you did) that we should start doubting it's basic usability, despite it having real problems with very basic scope functions.
Cause it is R&S you know, they know how to make scopes.. Despite their very own documentation shows some worse bugs than cheap Siglent ever had.

[Martin72]

A german "comedian" once played a fictional conversation between an engineer from siemens and him:

Do you know what we call it when we know that the product is not yet ready for the market, but still has to be delivered ?
No I don´t..
Banana version...
Banana version ?!
Yes, banana version - Matures at the customer.

 

[nctnico]

And nobody started making statements (like you did) that we should start doubting it's basic usability, despite it having real problems with very basic scope functions.
Cause it is R&S you know, they know how to make scopes.. Despite their very own documentation shows some worse bugs than cheap Siglent ever had.

IMHO you are over estimating R&S here. R&S is well known for their high end RF gear. However, oscilloscopes is something they started making later on. With the acquisition of Hameg they tried to tap into the lower end of the market. Where it comes to oscilloscopes R&S doesn't have the pedigree like Keysight, Lecroy, Tektronix and Yokogawa have. Regarding the relatively new R&S scopes (like the RTM3004) specifically I think they made the user interface way too complicated/fancy with all sorts of process synchronisation issues as a result. I have an RTM3004 on my bench and there are certain things about it that are dissapointing (see the review I wrote a couple of years ago). Still Thinkfat's remark about regression testing is a good one. It is very unlikely for an A-brand to introduce a bug in firmware which breaks previously working functionality.

[kcbrown]

And nobody started making statements (like you did) that we should start doubting it's basic usability, despite it having real problems with very basic scope functions.
Cause it is R&S you know, they know how to make scopes.. Despite their very own documentation shows some worse bugs than cheap Siglent ever had.

IMHO you are over estimating R&S here. R&S is well known for their high end RF gear. However, oscilloscopes is something they started making later on. With the acquisition of Hameg they tried to tap into the lower end of the market. Where it comes to oscilloscopes R&S doesn't have the pedigree like Keysight, Lecroy, Tektronix and Yokogawa have.

That makes no difference.  A manufacturer's basic approach to software development and testing isn't going to change just because the kind of instrument is new or different.

The issues here arise from the development approach being taken, not the nature of the instrument.

And while R&S may not have the same pedigree with respect to oscilloscopes that the other manufacturers have, they're still regarded as an A-brand manufacturer because of their other instrument lines.

For this discussion, the "A brand" designation isn't given to product lines, but to manufacturers, because manufacturers decide how they do development, and product lines are merely the results of those development efforts.

Now, if you still want to go on and say that R&S is a "B-brand" manufacturer like Siglent, by all means, knock yourself out.   

It is very unlikely for an A-brand to introduce a bug in firmware which breaks previously working functionality.

That's how it should be.  But whether that's how it actually is seems to be up for some debate.

[Deichgraf]

Oh man, what to say about this ...

To be clear, I'm not defending anybody's mistakes. Just pointing out that nobody should be measured by different metrics. Siglent should and will fix this.
They probably like it much less than you do. People like to be told they did a good job, not the vice versa..

I didn't use metrics at all or compared it to anything else, just my expectation ... you should read my initial comment ... "disappointed" about this FW, and not due to "fixing bugs"    but introducing a new one into a function, which had no issue before.
And this brings me to the point of testing and how this glitch could come through (after 1 year of ...)?
This is my personal perspective and I don't care about any other brand and their list of bugs (useless), because I own the Siglent one.

And nobody started making statements (like you did) that we should start doubting it's basic usability, despite it having real problems with very basic scope functions.
Cause it is R&S you know, they know how to make scopes.. Despite their very own documentation shows some worse bugs than cheap Siglent ever had.

Just my opinion, expressed by "I don't feel ..."  and the FFT is nowadys a basic function, which I like to use without a fixed divider in my mind

[2N3055]

Oh man, what to say about this ...

To be clear, I'm not defending anybody's mistakes. Just pointing out that nobody should be measured by different metrics. Siglent should and will fix this.
They probably like it much less than you do. People like to be told they did a good job, not the vice versa..

I didn't use metrics at all or compared it to anything else, just my expectation ... you should read my initial comment ... "disappointed" about this FW, and not due to "fixing bugs"    but introducing a new one into a function, which had no issue before.
And this brings me to the point of testing and how this glitch could come through (after 1 year of ...)?
This is my personal perspective and I don't care about any other brand and their list of bugs (useless), because I own the Siglent one.

And nobody started making statements (like you did) that we should start doubting it's basic usability, despite it having real problems with very basic scope functions.
Cause it is R&S you know, they know how to make scopes.. Despite their very own documentation shows some worse bugs than cheap Siglent ever had.

Just my opinion, expressed by "I don't feel ..."  and the FFT is nowadys a basic function, which I like to use without a fixed divider in my mind

Yes, this is Internet. You have right to express your opinions.

And so do I. Your post, to me sounds a bit drama queen type. That is my opinion. Hence my "put into perspective" comment.
Not what you talk about, but how. Blowing things out of proportion is nice dramatic tool, but won't fix the scope.

As for defects, they should be fixed. NO excuse for THAT.
And I'm sure they will. Nobody likes to be singled out for doing a bad job..

[Martin72]

Hi,

A "summary" question to the beta-testers and siglent vendors:

The FFT "quirk" caused by the last firmware - is this a accepted bug and will be as soon as possible fixed ?
What about the 4 digits after the comma axis labeling ?
Last thing, is there any chance that the internal AWG will be polished in several things ?

Martin

[maxspb69]

It will probably be fixed. But the concept of "soon as possible" is a very relative concept.

[thinkfat]

Technically, those are bugs that are quite easy to fix. There's no random behavior, they're 100% reproducible and if their software is not a complete mess where unrelated changes cause bugs somewhere else (which I won't rule out, knowing how EE's typically develop software ;-), it is only a question of priorities.

[hpw]

In SW development it is like: the sum of bugs is a constant 

IMHO, currently looks like they put all engineers on SNA5000 product.

Waiting Siglent fixes:

. SDG2k modulation issue, as latest response from Siglent Support,  A FPGA limitation and may only one channel working using a special FW

. SDS2K issues on fast rising square waves

. SSA2k plus, jitter on synthesizer (1Hz and 200Hz Span to check, external OXCO do not help in this regard), BW on remote SW no 1Hz support

. SDM3065x display fixes, graph plot issue on restart as temp mode

so for a serious lab, may use for 40% for your low end measurements and for serious any xx..xxxK$ brands to consider

[edigi]

Just my opinion, expressed by "I don't feel ..."  and the FFT is nowadys a basic function, which I like to use without a fixed divider in my mind

You've created a big drama out of a small issue. The Siglent 5kX (a more expensive scope) originally had 3 digits resolution for frequency in its peak table that made it close to useless. They were pretty quick in fixing that. While it's annoying to have superfluous digits in the axes (especially at the vertical/dB scale) and it takes valuable space, it's still not the end of the world. The wrong peaks mean that memory depth has to be restricted, so there is workaround.

DSOs are complex SW based equipments nowadays and the hard fact with complex SW that it cannot be made bug free (no matter what vendor) and the developers have to prioritize. This issue, although seems a "low hanging fruit", is probably not the most serious one to jump on but let's hope that it will happen eventually.

Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with Siglent, bought some of their equipments, with some I'm more happy than with the others but in overall I think they do a good job in fixing issues (it's quite visible that for example the SDM product line they give less focus than other more expensive ones).

[edigi]

IMHO, currently looks like they put all engineers on SNA5000 product.

Looking at the price tags and guessing from that how much profit they are likely to make from various test equipments like DSO of this thread and from the more expensive T&M equipments it's very much unsurprising what is more in focus and what is less...

[Martin72]

It will probably be fixed. But the concept of "soon as possible" is a very relative concept.

Of course, me I´m wating since three years for a bugfix for a lecroy wavesurfer..

We are not alone in this world, the sds2k+ is not the only device from siglent, there are many other things to do for them.
It would be nice if the new bug will be fixed soon, but it won´t be the world´s end if not.