Siglent SDS2000X Plus

[Serg65536]

And, in logical terms, I would say that we can take a "SDS2102X+" to "SDS2501X+" terrain...

Is there 2 to 4 channel update options in the SCPI memdump?

There is no official 2ch to 4ch upgrade, but it could be something like this:
SDS2000XP-4CH01
SDS2000XP-CH401
SDS2000XP-2CH01
SDS2000XP-2C401
SDS2000XP-24C01

[pizzarollz]

This is a PoC. No public release for now.

Have you been able to unlock all of the protocol decoders as well?

[Martin72]

here is no official 2ch to 4ch upgrade

Makes sense, the only upgrade is to buy a 4-ch version

[tautech]

This is a PoC. No public release for now.

Have you been able to unlock all of the protocol decoders as well?

Apparently so:

[Serg65536]

here is no official 2ch to 4ch upgrade

Makes sense, the only upgrade is to buy a 4-ch version

It's a shame, official site shows 350 4ch model picture for the sds2102x+!     
https://www.siglent.eu/product/1176068/siglent-sds2102x-plus-2ch-100mhz-2gsa-s-oscilloscope

I'll better buy Rigol MSO5074. 

[Martin72]

It will be worth it´s money, I know this. 

Finally, some pics - Wavefrom update rate I couldn´t measure at home.

Pics showing:

Intensity grade, minimum
Intensity grade, maximum
Same, but coloured, minimum
Coloured, maximum
Display menu, I like the the backlight control..
FFT, "speed" is as fast or slow as by the rigol 5074
FFT, full screen
8Bit resolution
10Bit Resolution

[Wuerstchenhund]

Note that on other scopes Eres filtering is typically done in hardware (and not as a math function)

This is incorrect.

ERES (which is *not* the same as HiRes on other scopes [1] and which has only been available from LeCroy and for a short while now also from Siglent) has always been a software-based math function, and this for more than a quarter of a century (the only exception being early Siglent scopes like SDS2000 and subsequent scopes right up to the SDS5kX, although I'm not sure in all cases it's really true ERES, and in case of the SDS5000X it appears ERES will soon become a math mode there).

HiRes on the other hand is usually implemented as acquisition mode, although usually also in software.

I'm just following the forum occasionally but there seems to be an increasing tendency to call HiRes modes "ERES", which is not correct.


[1] https://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires

[thinkfat]

ERES "mode" bandwidth is 100MHz, according to the Siglent data sheet. So, quite a penalty at least for the higher spec'd versions. On the 100MHz version it would not really matter, I guess.

[tv84]

It's a shame, official site shows 350 4ch model picture for the sds2102x+!     

siglent.eu is NOT the official site! It's a distributor. The official site is https://www.siglenteu.com/

[nctnico]

Note that on other scopes Eres filtering is typically done in hardware (and not as a math function)

This is incorrect.

ERES (which is *not* the same as HiRes on other scopes [1] and which has only been available from LeCroy and for a short while now also from Siglent) has always been a software-based math function, and this for more than a quarter of a century (the only exception being early Siglent scopes like SDS2000 and subsequent scopes right up to the SDS5kX, although I'm not sure in all cases it's really true ERES, and in case of the SDS5000X it appears ERES will soon become a math mode there).

HiRes on the other hand is usually implemented as acquisition mode, although usually also in software.

I'm just following the forum occasionally but there seems to be an increasing tendency to call HiRes modes "ERES", which is not correct.


[1] https://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires

In the end the effect is the same. The upside of doing hires/eres in a math trace is that it can be done using cheaper acquisition hardware and you get to keep the original samples (which can be useful for other purposes). The downside of doing filtering in software is decreased performance. The whole point of hires mode is to do filtering inside the acquisition hardware to get extra bits and/or less noise without taking a performance hit.

[Martin72]

This Siglent got it both, Hi-Res and Eres, it´s up to you what to use in specific cases.
By our new Lecroy 12bit scope, Eres hasn´t such a effect like on 8bit scopes.

ERES "mode" bandwidth is 100MHz, according to the Siglent data sheet. So, quite a penalty at least for the higher spec'd versions. On the 100MHz version it would not really matter, I guess.

Like all filters, whether they´re hardware- or software based you got bandwith limitations.

[nctnico]

This Siglent got it both, Hi-Res and Eres, it´s up to you what to use in specific cases.

In that case I'd assume Hi-res doesn't give you much of a performance penalty.

[Wuerstchenhund]

ERES (which is *not* the same as HiRes on other scopes [1] and which has only been available from LeCroy and for a short while now also from Siglent) has always been a software-based math function, and this for more than a quarter of a century (the only exception being early Siglent scopes like SDS2000 and subsequent scopes right up to the SDS5kX, although I'm not sure in all cases it's really true ERES, and in case of the SDS5000X it appears ERES will soon become a math mode there).

HiRes on the other hand is usually implemented as acquisition mode, although usually also in software.

I'm just following the forum occasionally but there seems to be an increasing tendency to call HiRes modes "ERES", which is not correct.

[1] https://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires

In the end the effect is the same.

No, the point is that it's *not* the same. ERES has certain advantages over which may or may not be of interest to you, but if they are then HiRes simply isn't good enough.

The upside of doing hires/eres in a math trace is that it can be done using cheaper acquisition hardware and you get to keep the original samples (which can be useful for other purposes).

There is a reason why LeCroy hasn't followed others in implementing some HiRes mode as acquisition mode (aside from the general advantages of ERES itself), which is that by implementing it as a math mode the original sample data is still available. HiRes however, as an acquisition mode as implemented in most other scopes, is a destructive function, i.e. the original sampling data is lost.

Also, ERES as math mode makes it possible to use something else as the input channel (e.g. another math trace) as an input for ERES.

The downside of doing filtering in software is decreased performance.

I'm not sure what your point is. ERES is a software function but it runs on a general purpose processor (68k on the 9300 Series, PPC in LC/WRLT/WR2LT/WP900, x86 and X64 in X-Stream scopes) which didn't exactly struggle to perform these operations at a reasonable performance. Putting ERES in hardware may or may not make sense for an entry-level scope (it doesn't for mid-range and high-end scopes), but this would also increase costs when COTS processors these days offer plenty of performance. Depending how it's implemented, hardware ERES might also prevent its use with input data from something else as an analog channel.

HiRes is easy to implement because it's doesn't need a lot of processing resources, simply because it's such a simple mode. Which makes it faster, but again it doesn't deliver the same as ERES, so the speed comes at a trade-off.

The whole point of hires mode is to do filtering inside the acquisition hardware to get extra bits and/or less noise without taking a performance hit.

If that's all you want, fine, then go and buy one of the many scopes on the market which offer the common HiRes acquisition mode. There are plenty of models on the market.

But there's a reason why LeCroy has been and still is the number one when it comes to analysis scopes, and there is a solid demand for scopes which go beyond what other scopes offer. Siglent has obviously decided it makes sense to try to offer some similar capabilities in its new upper entry level scope instead of copying what everyone else is doing, which I find laudable. And even though the SDS2000X+ isn't a class of scope we normally buy, I can immediately think of a range of people I know which would love functionality like this and who don't need the large bandwidths (or the price tag) of a LeCroy scope.

And after reading the article I'm not sure whether the Lecroy method is mathematically correct from a signal processing perspective. If you are going to filter sharp edges you are supposed to get overshoots because you are filtering away extra harmonics. Hiding these is creating a false image.

The article is admittedly not an in-depth description, but I can assure you the theory behind ERES is sound.

[Martin72]

And even though the SDS2000X+ isn't a class of scope we normally buy, I can immediately think of a range of people I know which would love functionality like this and who don't need the large bandwidths (or the price tag) of a LeCroy scope.

I´m seriously thinking about to recommend it for our testdepartment.
Four channels is a must have, therefore it must be the 2104.
But 100Mhz are more than enough for the use in our testfield ( we are in power supply solutions ).
Options like FG or power analyzer we don´t need, we have FGs and power analyzing is only for our developement necessary - And we got some lecroys to do this.
The specs are remarkable for a 1400 bucks scope (like the timebase accuracy of 1ppm), it got gate-measuring ( we use this in our factory acceptance tests), it´s easy to handle..
So why not buying a couple of it.
For my private use it´s more than enough and in some cases "better" as my former scope.
Good thing for a good price.

[nctnico]

But there's a reason why LeCroy has been and still is the number one when it comes to analysis scopes, and there is a solid demand for scopes which go beyond what other scopes offer. Siglent has obviously decided it makes sense to try to offer some similar capabilities in its new upper entry level scope instead of copying what everyone else is doing, which I find laudable. And even though the SDS2000X+ isn't a class of scope we normally buy, I can immediately think of a range of people I know which would love functionality like this and who don't need the large bandwidths (or the price tag) of a LeCroy scope.

Still this would target a niche market. Not sure if that is the right target for Siglent right now. The general purpose bench oscilloscope market is much more interesting if you can compete on price while offering the same features. Siglent has improved a lot over the last couple of years but IMHO they need to look beyond Lecroy's features (and limitations!) and have at least the same basic feature set the competition offers (simple things like allowing to use all the memory without needing to jump through hoops for example). Otherwise Rigol may catch up in a couple of years.

Some of the engineers I have spoken to agree that Lecroy has some unique analysis features but if the competition would provide something similar they'd swap the Lecroy scopes in a heartbeat. That is not a good position to be in as a manufacturer. Recently I acquired a Lecroy Wavepro 7200A 7300A with tons of options but I wouldn't want to use this as a general purpose bench scope. It has so many features and options that it is getting cumbersome to setup for simple tasks. For example filtering; in some cases the filter doesn't even result in a filtered signal because the settings make the filter unstable. It really is geared towards analysis applications (besides showing a wiggly line). But maybe the new UI has been improved; I have not tried that.

[Martin72]

The way siglent adapts due to their cooperation some of the lecroy specials is not the badest one.
Actually there are only three leaders what scope buildings concerns and this for decades.
Keysight (Agilent, HP), tektronix and lecroy.
Everyone has it´s pros and cons and it´s up to you, which you choose for your works.
NONE of the three produced worthless things.
From the upcoming brands, I see siglent and rigol in front.
Good for the hobbyists, good for all.

But maybe the new UI has been improved; I have not tried that.

I do.

There is always a chance to loan a scope, try an actual waverunner or above.

But apart from that, really apart...
What´s the topic ?
Right, a new scope from siglent.
Not from lecroy, keysight, tektronix.
Not a scope which costs 5000 bucks or above.
We´re talking about scopes affordable for hobbyists.
Getting a scope from rigol or siglent it is a chance for not getting crap at all.
None would seriously compare them to the big three their models which was really builded from them.
Or as we in Germany say, you have to leave the church in the village...

[Someone]

This Siglent got it both, Hi-Res and Eres, it´s up to you what to use in specific cases.
By our new Lecroy 12bit scope, Eres hasn´t such a effect like on 8bit scopes.

ERES 10bit "mode" bandwidth is 100MHz, according to the Siglent data sheet. So, quite a penalty at least for the higher spec'd versions. On the 100MHz version it would not really matter, I guess.

Like all filters, whether they´re hardware- or software based you got bandwith limitations.

Mr W posted a polite clarification, but you both keep repeating the opposite. The Siglent SDS2000X Plus has a 10bit "high resolution" acquisition mode that reduces the input bandwidth to 100MHz, and in addition it has a math filter (ERES) with preset cutoff rates relative to the current sampling rate.

There are more limitations than just the bandwidth, different filtering methods/types can have other effects on the resulting waveform as noted in that Lecroy document (the filter in the Siglent ERES may well be different to the one in Lecroy ERES). Conversely the fixed steps of the FIR ERES filter may not be as convenient as a variable cutoff frequency. Some other scopes don't increase the bit depth in high resolution mode, they just use it to reduce noise and still store 8 bit data, so the Siglent is a step up there.

[nctnico]

We´re talking about scopes affordable for hobbyists.
Getting a scope from rigol or siglent it is a chance for not getting crap at all.

Be careful. Tautech is going to kill you for stating Siglent equipment is for hobbyists only! 

Besides that Rigol and Siglent aren't the only choices; there are other Asian brands which sell good equipment with solid firmware.

If you look at Siglent's pricing (without hacking) they are obviously targetting the professional market because that is where the big money is. IMHO Siglent equipment is already a good alternative when it comes to spectrum analysers and function generators (although some series are better than others). Oscilloscopes are obviously more complex but Siglent is really close to getting out of oscilloscope's 'little league' as well. They just need a push in the right direction to get into the major league.

[Martin72]

Siglent equipment is for hobbyists only!

It´s the truth and tautech should/will be know it...

Actually I see only siglent on it´s way to be a professional, rigol got it´s chance with the incredible DS1054Z.
The mso5000 series is incredible also when you took it´s basic model and hacking it.
But take note of their official prices, up to 5000 bucks, up to 10000 or more what 7000/8000 concerns.
It makes me laugh…
Siglent choose to hang on one of the global players and with it they´re right.
Actually I can´t find anything on this model who will let me say don´t buy this !
But I could find things who are yelling buy me !!! 

[tautech]

Siglent equipment is for hobbyists only!

It´s the truth and tautech should/will be know it...

Don't bring me into this as I had zip zero nada input into SDS2kX+ !

Following the SDS5000X series the only surprize was the shared vertical controls of SDS2kX+ whereas earlier SDS2kX had individual controls. The UI now mimics SDS5kX yet apparently there are some SDS2kX+ features to be ported into the SDS5kX UI.

Much of Siglents progress has come from their willingness to receive quality input from here on the forum but mostly from their worldwide team of beta testers sharing their experience of decades working with all manner of other brands in a professional environment. Some have even contributed to the HW design and then gone on to help maximise its capability.
A very big thanks to you guys......yes some of them are watching. 

[Frex]

Hello,

This new oscope seems very promising ...
With the hack done, a real (only) competitor for the MSO5000 at this price tag.
Does anybody know if Dave planed a review for soon ?
That would be great to have it's expertise and see real use case.

Martin, could you try FFT in 10 bits mode, to see if noise floor is improved ?
FFT usage on scope is often limited by real input dynamic range.
Regards.

Frex

[thinkfat]

This Siglent got it both, Hi-Res and Eres, it´s up to you what to use in specific cases.
By our new Lecroy 12bit scope, Eres hasn´t such a effect like on 8bit scopes.

ERES 10bit "mode" bandwidth is 100MHz, according to the Siglent data sheet. So, quite a penalty at least for the higher spec'd versions. On the 100MHz version it would not really matter, I guess.

Like all filters, whether they´re hardware- or software based you got bandwith limitations.

Mr W posted a polite clarification, but you both keep repeating the opposite. The Siglent SDS2000X Plus has a 10bit "high resolution" acquisition mode that reduces the input bandwidth to 100MHz, and in addition it has a math filter (ERES) with preset cutoff rates relative to the current sampling rate.

There are more limitations than just the bandwidth, different filtering methods/types can have other effects on the resulting waveform as noted in that Lecroy document (the filter in the Siglent ERES may well be different to the one in Lecroy ERES). Conversely the fixed steps of the FIR ERES filter may not be as convenient as a variable cutoff frequency. Some other scopes don't increase the bit depth in high resolution mode, they just use it to reduce noise and still store 8 bit data, so the Siglent is a step up there.

Ah, right! I goofed! I mistook 10bit mode for ERES in the datasheet. I read the document Wuerstchenhund pointed out and saw the table regarding the -3dB point referenced to Nyquist frequency for different amounts of bits gained and when I read through the datasheet, I found the 100MHz mentioned. I guess my brain wasn't really engaged that his point.

[nctnico]

Actually there are only three leaders what scope buildings concerns and this for decades.
Keysight (Agilent, HP), tektronix and lecroy.

Well, you are leaving Iwatsu (also rebadged by Lecroy) and Yokogawa out. Both are very respectable A-brands too.

[Martin72]

Hi,

I take a scope at home, so I can measure the waveformupdates.
Triggeroutput to a channel of the other scope.
What else must I obay, because the update-ratings are far away from the disclaimed 120,000....

[0xdeadbeef]

Be aware that it the update rate only meets the specs for point mode (neither linear nor sinc interpolation). At least this was discussed for the SDS5000X.