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Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: tautech on November 13, 2019, 07:12:39 pm

Title: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on November 13, 2019, 07:12:39 pm
New models similar to the SDS5000X form factor and UI and whispered release is early 2020.

(https://www.siglent.com/u_file/product/19_10_31/e7bd553350.png)

2 GSa/s, BW's 70 to 500 MHz only 100, 200 and 350 MHz models to western markets.
Storage depth up to 200 Mpts/ch
120,000 wfm/s
2 or 4ch models.
8 and 10 bit modes
10" touch display with keyboard and mouse support
16ch MSO option
Standard Decodes:  IIC, SPI, UART, CAN, LIN. Optional: CAN FD, FlexRay, IIS, MIL-STD-1553B each $269
2 Mpts FFT.
1M and 50 Ohm inputs.
Inbuilt 50 MHz AWG option $219
Power Analysis option $269

BW upgrade options

Released Jan 16 2020
https://int.siglent.com/products-overview/sds2000xp/ (https://int.siglent.com/products-overview/sds2000xp/)
https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/ (https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/)
https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/)

SDS2102X Plus $ 999
SDS2104X Plus $ 1399
SDS2204X Plus $ 2199
SDS2354X Plus $ 2999

Upgrade SDS2354X Plus bandwidth to 500 MHz (Only two channels) $1,399, others available.

https://youtu.be/5Gl1O8YHUso (https://youtu.be/5Gl1O8YHUso)


First look at the SDS2104X Plus by Defpom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHH4H8Q7IWg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHH4H8Q7IWg)


June 3 2020
Dave has a dive into the insides of the 350 MHz SDS2354X Plus, installs the 500 MHz BW option by way of a hack and finishes with a tangle with the 10 bit mode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxzQS-Bn2R0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxzQS-Bn2R0)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: implor on November 13, 2019, 07:47:40 pm
Looks nice. Question is price. <$3500 for 500mhz and it's a killer.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 13, 2019, 08:01:20 pm
Probe detection but not probe supply? Great compromise for the entry class but I guess the SDS2000X will be more a mid-range scope from Siglent's point of view.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: thinkfat on November 13, 2019, 08:02:02 pm
Actual 10 bit or interpolation? Probably the latter.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: daveyk on November 13, 2019, 08:55:31 pm
Will it have true pulse width measurement where you can set the mid-measurement references?  Now all pulses are read at 50%.  Also will the Cursor Control be easier to use the in some of their other scopes?  I'm game for buying a new scope at the end of this year (expense it off) for my business, but I have been burned by Siglent last year, so I would need to get my hands on one before I decide to purchase it.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: tautech on November 14, 2019, 09:15:43 am
Looks nice. Question is price. <$3500 for 500mhz and it's a killer.
Price aligns close to the 350 MHz SDS5034X or just a little less, so yes ~$3500 for SDS2504X Plus however at this early time it's only a best guess.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: jemangedeslolos on November 14, 2019, 09:28:27 am
Will be mine  >:D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on November 14, 2019, 09:46:16 am
Looks nice. Question is price. <$3500 for 500mhz and it's a killer.
The SDS2000X Plus is the successor of the SDS2000X, hence it is a 2000 class instrument and pricing will be accordingly. I can only speculate, but of course don't expect it to absolutely match the current SDS2000X line, since these are on sale already.


Probe detection but not probe supply? Great compromise for the entry class but I guess the SDS2000X will be more a mid-range scope from Siglent's point of view.
The SDS2000X series had automatic probe detection right from the start, so this is nothing new in this class.

The SDS2000X Plus is a top entry level scope with regard to its hardware, but it will have many (most) of the current SDS5000X firmware features. In some instances it is already even more advanced! Together with the touch UI it can be considered to be the little brother of the SDS5000X much more than the big brother of the SDS2000X-E.


Actual 10 bit or interpolation? Probably the latter.
Please note that Siglent does not advertise this DSO as 10bit. There is a 10bit acquisition mode that is accomplished by oversampling and has a fixed 100MHz bandwidth.

When I first heard about it, I have to admit that I thought the 10bit mode was just a marketing gag – until I got my hands on the first pre-production unit. This mode works amazingly well and believe it or not, is almost indistinguishable from a true 10bit ADC. DNL and INL of the existing 8bit ADC are quite obviously good enough to allow that sort of resolution enhancement without visual nonlinearities.

The SDS200X Plus includes the first implementation of a vertical zoom feature, which is not available even in the SDS5000X (yet):

[attachimg=1 width=800]
SDS2354X+_Zoom_10bit

Here we can see a sine acquired in 10bit mode at 20mV/div. In zoom mode, we have amplified the bottom end of the signal to 5mV/div and still get a super clean waveform without any jaggies.


Will it have true pulse width measurement where you can set the mid-measurement references?  Now all pulses are read at 50%.  Also will the Cursor Control be easier to use the in some of their other scopes?  I'm game for buying a new scope at the end of this year (expense it off) for my business, but I have been burned by Siglent last year, so I would need to get my hands on one before I decide to purchase it.
Pulse width measurement with user defined threshold level (Pulse width @ level) is not supported yet. I've made sure that this measurement (among others) is on the todo list for the SDS5000X and this means we can certainly get it for the SDS2000X Plus as well.

The Cursors handling is much better with the touch screen UI. You can directly select the various cursors in a list and drag the cursors by touch control on top of that:

[attachimg=2  width=800]
SDS2354X+_Cursors
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: nctnico on November 14, 2019, 09:54:42 am
@Performa01: Does Siglent have any plans to get rid of the automatic memory depth setting? For me the automatic memory depth adjustment is a total productivity killer. It annoyed the hell out of me during the short time I had the SDS2000.

And how about full memory decoding? It is about time Siglent addresses this too.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: BillB on November 14, 2019, 10:31:08 am
Looks like the Chinese website has pricing for the plus.  If so, a comparison for that market could be made.  From my calculations the 4 channel 100MHz model is around 1700 USD.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on November 14, 2019, 06:29:55 pm
I assume 2GSa/s is only true for one channel or two at maximum. So, what is the sample rate for 4 channels?
Actually, while 2GS/s could be considered enough for 500MHz I guess (even though I'd personally want at least 5GSa/s), 1GS/s or even less per channel would make the higher bandwidth somewhat questionable.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Martin72 on November 14, 2019, 09:28:13 pm
Quote
2 GSa/s, BW's 70 to 500 MHz, Storage depth up to 200 Mpts/ch
2 or 4ch models.
8 and 10 bit modes
10" touch display with keyboard and mouse support
16ch MSO option
Standard Decodes:  IIC, SPI, UART, CAN, LIN. Optional: CAN FD, FlexRay, IIS, MIL-STD-1553B
2 Mpts FFT.
1M and 50 Ohm inputs.
Inbuilt AWG option
Power Analysis option

2 GSa/s....hm-hm.
What I don´t understand (in general) are the bandwith things starting with 70Mhz....why 70Mhz, is this a "magic" barrier….
Also the 2-Ch/4-Ch thing.
Why not 4-Ch and 100Mhz as the lowest entry…
50 Ohm Inputs, thumbs up  :-+
Also the 2 Mpts FFT and inbuild AWG option plus power analyzis option could be a hint to a relationship to the SDS3000 platform.
8bit and 10bit mode.....is this a benefit...





Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: tautech on November 15, 2019, 01:01:28 am
I assume 2GSa/s is only true for one channel or two at maximum.
Traditional architecture is a single ADC for 2 channels and dual ADC's for 4 channels so if they're 2 GSa/s sampling rate will be halved with 2 active channels on the same ADC.
Quote
So, what is the sample rate for 4 channels?
Based on the above explanation of Siglent's traditional architecture, 1 GSa/s of course.

Quote
Actually, while 2GS/s could be considered enough for 500MHz I guess (even though I'd personally want at least 5GSa/s), 1GS/s or even less per channel would make the higher bandwidth somewhat questionable.
Most buyers of this class of scope (low mid range) will understand the tradeoff of sampling rate vs frequency (aliasing) and select sufficient a sampling rate for their frequencies of interest or be quite aware to use just one channel on each ADC.

As rf-loop would say, there are no free lunches.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: ResistorRob on November 15, 2019, 01:45:19 am
Finally someone made a scope that checked all the boxes of what I am looking for. I really wanted something that one on the bottom rung of a mid-range scope 4 ch 100Mhz, touchscreen, 50 ohm inputs, MSO option, looks nice on the bench, etc!!

I was hoping to get something at around $1k to $1.3k which is the max of my budget. I think the price is fair at $1.7k since I was looking at 8 inch screens and this is a 10 inch. I will just have to spend more time saving up. I think Siglent will sell a lot of these!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: tautech on November 15, 2019, 02:10:35 am
Finally someone made a scope that checked all the boxes of what I am looking for. I really wanted something that one on the bottom rung of a mid-range scope 4 ch 100Mhz, touchscreen, 50 ohm inputs, MSO option, looks nice on the bench, etc!!
There's some really good deals on the bit older 8" display SDS2304X, trouble is decode is optional and additional cost.  :(
https://siglentna.com/product/sds2304x-clearance/

These have all the above specs you wanted except touch.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: daveyk on November 15, 2019, 03:24:32 pm
I assume 2GSa/s is only true for one channel or two at maximum. So, what is the sample rate for 4 channels?
Actually, while 2GS/s could be considered enough for 500MHz I guess (even though I'd personally want at least 5GSa/s), 1GS/s or even less per channel would make the higher bandwidth somewhat questionable.

Tektronix was doing 2.5GS/S sampling and 300MHz, 20 years ago.  Why is it so difficult for these new scopes to get to 2GS/s today?  Yea, the Tek TDS3000 were and are damn expensive, but I can not believe those 2.5GS/S parts cost that much these days.  I guess you are paying for the technology and development costs more than the parts.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on November 15, 2019, 04:51:21 pm
@Performa01: Does Siglent have any plans to get rid of the automatic memory depth setting? For me the automatic memory depth adjustment is a total productivity killer. It annoyed the hell out of me during the short time I had the SDS2000.
The short answer is no, sorry.

What engineers want to do is capture a record that represents a certain timespan. What is easier and feels more natural:

•   Select the main timebase for the required total timespan and then adjust the zoom timebase for closer inspection of details
or
•   Calculate the required memory depth from the required timespan and current sample rate, dig into the Acquisition menu to select the appropriate memory depth (provided it could be selected with similar fine granularity as the timebase) and then have to scroll back and forth through the buffer in order to inspect the entire acquisition
?

The zoom window supports math, automatic and cursor measurements as well as mask test.

The maximal record length can be limited in order to reduce the sample rate and/or get more history segments.

Any acquisition strategy that would hide a single sample from instant view would annoy the hell out of me. Thankfully, Siglent will continue to follow PicoTech and LeCroy in this regard.

We get a lot of feedback from professional Siglent users and I think it's most indicative that not one has ever questioned this acquisition strategy.


And how about full memory decoding? It is about time Siglent addresses this too.
This is a (mis)leading question. While there are certain (protocol dependent) limits for the total number of table entries (bytes, words, double words, packets) which in turn obviously limits the maximum record length that can be fully decoded (at least if oversampling is low), not many apart from you would consider the following screenshot with a total of 45 decoded I2C messages as not full memory decoding:

[attachimg=1 width=800]
SDS2354X+_Digital_I2C_5Mpts_Serial_Start_3
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: nctnico on November 15, 2019, 05:20:59 pm
@Performa01: Does Siglent have any plans to get rid of the automatic memory depth setting? For me the automatic memory depth adjustment is a total productivity killer. It annoyed the hell out of me during the short time I had the SDS2000.
The short answer is no, sorry.

What engineers want to do is capture a record that represents a certain timespan. What is easier and feels more natural:

•   Select the main timebase for the required total timespan and then adjust the zoom timebase for closer inspection of details
or
•   Calculate the required memory depth from the required timespan and current sample rate, dig into the Acquisition menu to select the appropriate memory depth (provided it could be selected with similar fine granularity as the timebase) and then have to scroll back and forth through the buffer in order to inspect the entire acquisition
?
You (and Siglent) forgot one very simple use case: trigger on part of a signal and when that looks OK change the timebase to look at the rest of the signal (which was outside the screen during capture). I use this regulary during design verification. And this is much easier to achieve than you think: just set the oscilloscope to the maximum memory depth and leave it at that. I have my oscilloscopes set to the maximum memory depth 99.9% of the time. It is very handy to be able zoom out or pan left/right to examine the signal which was outside the screen. With Siglent's automatic memory depth I'd need to change the time base for each capture twice which is just time consuming and irritating. And why not have the maximum memory depth available? Otherwise the memory just sits there idle anyway.

And how about full memory decoding? It is about time Siglent addresses this too.
This is a (mis)leading question. While there are certain (protocol dependent) limits for the total number of table entries (bytes, words, double words, packets) which in turn obviously limits the maximum record length that can be fully decoded (at least if oversampling is low), not many apart from you would consider the following screenshot with a total of 45 decoded I2C messages as not full memory decoding:

(Attachment Link)
SDS2354X+_Digital_I2C_5Mpts_Serial_Start_3
It is not a misleading question. Ofcourse there is a limit to the buffer but (again) none of the A-brands needs to use zoom mode to show details of a message with the start of the message off-screen. Zoom mode eats screen real-estate and may impose limitations. As long as zoom is necessary decoding on Siglent scopes is just less useful.

I know you do testing for Siglent but you should very seriously consider getting some other A-brand scopes in your lab and compare the Siglent scopes with these. You'll see the A-brands have a lot of tiny things which greatly improve useability and thus productivity. Siglent is moving forward but they still miss out on some of the basic stuff the A-brands have figured out for many years already. IMHO that is a shame because things like fixed memory depth and full memory decoding are deal breakers for the professional market.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: edigi on November 15, 2019, 05:33:15 pm
2x 2GSa/s for 4Ch x 500Mhz, seriously?
So far Siglent was aiming at least 2.5 times sampling rate (which is still the bare minimum only) and was not giving marketing gimmicks.

I also don't see the point of so many DSO variants as Siglent has now.
With proper pricing tons of SDS5000X and SDS2000X could have been sold for hobbyists and repair shops (for others all of these offerings are just entry level). I don't see how this kind of fragmented offerings help Siglent.
How big of a jump is from 200 Mhz to 350Mhz or from 350Mhz to 500Mhz (that is not always working + let's not forget the shared controls) or from 1Mpts FFT to 2Mpts FFT?
There should not be anything below 200 MHz in this category in my view.

The 50 Ohm inputs are indeed welcome. I have mixed feelings about the 10 bits, good that finally they have also this (since probably it's just SW) but this is something that most people can live without (and would not pay much).
Even having the money I could not decide, since I don't feel that this offering is future proof, especially with the given sampling rate. That's quite a show stopper. It should have been 2.5Gsa/s or more.
I must still look further for a decent 500MHz DSO...

You (and Siglent) forgot one very simple use case: trigger on part of a signal and when that looks OK change the timebase to look at the rest of the signal (which was outside the screen during capture). I use this regulary during design verification. And this is much easier to achieve than you think: just set the oscilloscope to the maximum memory depth and leave it at that. I have my oscilloscopes set to the maximum memory depth 99.9% of the time. It is very handy to be able zoom out or pan left/right to examine the signal which was outside the screen. With Siglent's automatic memory depth I'd need to change the time base for each capture twice which is just time consuming and irritating. And why not have the maximum memory depth available? Otherwise the memory just sits there idle anyway.

That's an absolutely good point. Second me on this.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: tautech on November 15, 2019, 07:33:20 pm
I also don't see the point of so many DSO variants as Siglent has now.
Some will be phased out as their capabilities are low for the marketplace now.
Quote
The 50 Ohm inputs are indeed welcome.

Nothing new here, SDS1000X (not X-E), SDS2000, SDS2000X, SDS2000X-E and SDS5000X all have 50 Ohm inputs.

Quote
I must still look further for a decent 500MHz DSO...
:-// SDS5054X ?


@ Performa01
Can you check total mem depth in History mode when in Decode ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: edigi on November 15, 2019, 09:15:19 pm
:-// SDS5054X ?

It's way out of my price range and anyhow roughly around that money one can buy a used but fully vendor checked Keysight MSOX3104T and while I'm certain that some if its specs are weaker but it's still a 1GHz scope.
I'm not biased by brand or don't necessarily look for a brand new device (provided that it's not ages old) but do you think that it provides the same value?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on November 15, 2019, 09:41:10 pm
Some folks seem to expect a fully fledged 500MHz DSO for dirt cheap. But the SDS2000X+  is just going to be an affordably priced 2000 series top entry level DSO/MSO. At 500MHz, we are entering midrange territory.

What do the 2000 series of other (“A-brand”) manufacturers offer?

I only list Keysight DSO-X 2000 and R&S RTB 2000, because LeCroy doesn’t have anything in this class.

•   Max. Bandwidth: Keysight 200MHz, R&S 300MHz
•   Max. Sample Rate: Keysight 2GSa/s, R&S 2.5GSa/s
•   Max. Memory: Keysight 1Mpts/ch, R&S 10Mpts/ch (160Mpts option)
•   Display: Keysight 8.5” non-touch, R&S 10” touch
•   FFT: Keysight 64kpts, R&S 128kpts

Granted, R&S has the big advantage of the 10bit ADC here, but does the Siglent SDS2000X+ really look bad when it has 350MHz bandwidth with a 500MHz option for half channel mode, 2GSa/s, 100Mpts/ch standard, 10” touchscreen, 2Mpts FFT and many features as standard that are paid options for the “A-brands”?

Keysight offers 70, 100 and 200MHz models, R&S has 70, 100, 200 and 300MHz models. There are quite some below 200MHz, right?

Siglent of all companies have too many variants? They offer only 200MHz for the bottom end SDS1202X-E, only 100 and 200MHz for the entry level SDS1004X-E, only 200 and 350MHz for the SDS2002X-E (a bridge device to the 2000 series for analog engineers, who want bandwidth at a low price and don’t need more than two channels) – and right now we do not even know what bandwidth variations of the SDS2000X+ we’ll actually get!

The shared controls are a problem for the Siglent 2000+, but not R&S and LeCroy?

I agree that it can be confusing, that there are some long obsolete DSOs still listed. The obvious reason is that there is still a demand for them in some countries.

Anyway, it should be quite obvious that the SDS2000X+ is not going to be a fully fledged 500MHz DSO. But for people who only need that bandwidth occasionally and can make do with half the channels in these situations, this might be an attractive offer.


Can you check total mem depth in History mode when in Decode ?
No matter whether it’s decoding or not, history is always close to the total memory size, i.e. 180~200Mpts per channel pair.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: ResistorRob on November 15, 2019, 11:30:11 pm
Quote from: tautech
There's some really good deals on the bit older 8" display SDS2304X, trouble is decode is optional and additional cost.  :(
https://siglentna.com/product/sds2304x-clearance/

These have all the above specs you wanted except touch.

The problem is "except touch"... that is the main feature I want  :-BROKE ;D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: tautech on November 16, 2019, 12:37:03 am
:-// SDS5054X ?

It's way out of my price range and anyhow roughly around that money one can buy a used but fully vendor checked Keysight MSOX3104T and while I'm certain that some if its specs are weaker but it's still a 1GHz scope.
So is my SDS5104X SDS5054X  ;) that Dave tested as best value in the 1 GHz range.
Quote
I'm not biased by brand or don't necessarily look for a brand new device (provided that it's not ages old) but do you think that it provides the same value?
Yeah I understand budget always dictates what we can stretch to so then it comes down to the feature set required.
As always, one must do their homework.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: tautech on November 16, 2019, 07:36:59 am
Can you check total mem depth in History mode when in Decode ?
No matter whether it’s decoding or not, history is always close to the total memory size, i.e. 180~200Mpts per channel pair.
Have you double checked this ?
IIRC rf-loop said History in SDS1004X-E was in the order of 56 Mpts while officially their mem depth is just 14 Mpts x 2, 14 for each ADC. So as I understand it History depth is unrelated to official mem depth and generally a good bit bigger.
Or have I got this all wrong ?  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on November 16, 2019, 08:11:31 am
Yes, the SDS1004X-E provides up to 54Mpts per channel pair, the SDS5000X has up to 433Mpts per channel pair - and both have come as a surprise, since I don't think it has ever been specified that way.

Yet the SDS2000X+ is actually limited to <200Mpts per channel pair with the current pre-release FW.

I think this is still very acceptable for its class and price range - there is just no nice surprise in the form of a hidden present in this regard.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: edigi on November 16, 2019, 08:41:10 am
Keysight offers 70, 100 and 200MHz models, R&S has 70, 100, 200 and 300MHz models. There are quite some below 200MHz, right?

I didn't mean Siglent only for this kind of low bandwidth models but it's an ancient old marketing trick that no vendor can resist: Look we have this sky high feature and the prices of some of our models start only this low and then they expect people to connect these 2 things. Surely it works for many people but does it work for people who do engineering stuff (where logical thinking and good memory is basic pre-requisite)? Anyhow, unless these models can be hacked (mainly an option for hobbyist only) they probably sell quite badly.
Maybe these stretched models sell well in some countries, I don't know, time will tell.

I don't like (and I'm probably not alone with this) shared controls no matter of the vendor. A well implemented touch screen maybe masks this a bit but it's still to be seen.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: jemangedeslolos on November 16, 2019, 09:40:03 am
Hello,

I have to say that Im a little bit disappointed by this 2000X+
I had a 2204X and I'm waiting patiently for his replacement.
The 10 inch touch screen are a very great improvement. I have a MSO5000 at home and I use the touch screen all the time.

I'm sure there will be plenty of great features but the shared control  |O
Maybe a big touch screen + shared control are not so annoying.
And I was hoping a bit more in terms of sample rate.

I think Siglent has made some choices not to walk over on the SDS5000X market.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on November 16, 2019, 10:01:19 am
I didn't mean Siglent only for this kind of low bandwidth models but it's an ancient old marketing trick that no vendor can resist: Look we have this sky high feature and the prices of some of our models start only this low and then they expect people to connect these 2 things. Surely it works for many people but does it work for people who do engineering stuff (where logical thinking and good memory is basic pre-requisite)? Anyhow, unless these models can be hacked (mainly an option for hobbyist only) they probably sell quite badly.
Well, it obviously works for all the so called "A-brands", where your criticism is certainly justified. Enterprises can negotiate some (artificially) expensive options for free and feel like a winner.

Siglent of all brands, appears to have a mostly reasonable marketing strategy. Price premium for higher bandwidth is bearable except for the SDS5000X, where the higher bandwidth models actually have a more costly frontend compared to the 350MHz model.

With regard to options, the Siglent scopes are fairly complete from the outset. There are no memory options and almost all software features are standard, only exception would be some exotic packages like Power Analysis. All the popular serial triggers and decoders are included for free and the rest is reasonably priced, even on the SDS5000X. This is also true for the MSO option.

Even enterprises don’t have unlimited budgets for their T&M requirements anymore (some never had) and this is even true for the aerospace industry. Even big companies do not need high end scopes for all their departments, all the more so as today even entry level instruments offer performance and features only found in top end devices not too long ago. Given your statements, I guess you would be flabbergasted if I you knew the percentage in the Siglent sales statistics which are enterprise purchases these days…
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: e0ne199 on November 16, 2019, 10:16:15 am
I didn't mean Siglent only for this kind of low bandwidth models but it's an ancient old marketing trick that no vendor can resist: Look we have this sky high feature and the prices of some of our models start only this low and then they expect people to connect these 2 things. Surely it works for many people but does it work for people who do engineering stuff (where logical thinking and good memory is basic pre-requisite)? Anyhow, unless these models can be hacked (mainly an option for hobbyist only) they probably sell quite badly.
Well, it obviously works for all the so called "A-brands", where your criticism is certainly justified. Enterprises can negotiate some (artificially) expensive options for free and feel like a winner.

Siglent of all brands, appears to have a mostly reasonable marketing strategy. Price premium for higher bandwidth is bearable except for the SDS5000X, where the higher bandwidth models actually have a more costly frontend compared to the 350MHz model.

With regard to options, the Siglent scopes are fairly complete from the outset. There are no memory options and almost all software features are standard, only exception would be some exotic packages like Power Analysis. All the popular serial triggers and decoders are included for free and the rest is reasonably priced, even on the SDS5000X. This is also true for the MSO option.

Even enterprises don’t have unlimited budgets for their T&M requirements anymore (some never had) and this is even true for the aerospace industry. Even big companies do not need high end scopes for all their departments, all the more so as today even entry level instruments offer performance and features only found in top end devices not too long ago. Given your statements, I guess you would be flabbergasted if I you knew the percentage in the Siglent sales statistics which are enterprise purchases these days…

maybe would you like to share some informations about top companies which buy siglent products for their R&D?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on November 16, 2019, 10:38:25 am
I'm sure there will be plenty of great features but the shared control  |O
 
I’m sorry that the multiplexed controls disappoint you.

But this is just following the LeCroy concept. Vertical controls are not only for the input channels 1-4, but also for the other buttons around: Math, Ref and Digital. The currently selected (and backlit) button indicates the what is controlled (scale and position). For instance, in Math mode you can also control the vertical scale and reference position of the FFT with it.

For selecting a math or reference channel, just touch the trace on the screen or the corresponding info tab at the bottom.

This is also how vertical zoom works. For the selected channel, the vertical controls will work for either the main or zoom window, depending on which one is selected by either pushing the horizontal control or just a simple touch on the corresponding screen area (selection will be indicated by a dashed frame around it). In the zoom window, the vertical gain can be increased and the trace position shifted.

I think it is a nice concept once you’ve gotten used to it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on November 16, 2019, 10:46:18 am
For those who are looking for a scope with reasonable performance that does not slow down to snail pace and get unresponsive as soon as it has something a little more demanding to do, just have a look at the attached video.

Please note that this is a screen recording from the web interface which is limited to less than 10 frames per second. The SDS2000X+ display is both faster and significantly smoother, but I still think you can get a first impression out of the video.

Since Siglent scopes always make use of their full memory and analog record length was just 20Mpts, we can enter history anytime to see the past (nine in this case) acquisitions:

[attachimg=2 width=800]
SDS2354+_Performance_Demo_I2C_History

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on November 16, 2019, 11:19:13 am
10Bit Acquisition mode and vertical Zoom:

This is the genuine 8bit acquisition which yields 30 LSB per vertical division. To illustrate this, the main window has a fine adjusted gain of 300mV/div and the zoom window is set to 10mV/div (30x zoom).
In dots display mode, we can see exactly one sample per division as expected:

[attachimg=2 width=800]
SDS2354X+_30xZoom_8bit

Plese note the tiny black rectangle in the gray shaded main window – this is the frame for the zoom window.

In 10bits mode, we expect 4 samples per division, corresponding to 120 LSB per division in the main window:

[attachimg=1 width=800]
SDS2354X+_30xZoom_10bit

As stated before, bandwidth is limited to 100MHz in 10bit mode.

This is the actual frequency response up to 1GHz:

[attachimg=3 width=800]
SDS2354Xplus 2GSa 10bit 1GHz

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: nctnico on November 16, 2019, 11:25:15 am
Given your statements, I guess you would be flabbergasted if I you knew the percentage in the Siglent sales statistics which are enterprise purchases these days…
You have to split that per type of equipment. I have no problem recommending the simpler Siglent gear (if it has mature firmware) to customers but oscilloscopes... no. There is just no way to smooth over / explain the limitations on the oscilloscopes I outlined earlier. The people I deal with have used other equipment so they know how an oscilloscope is supposed to work.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on November 16, 2019, 03:16:35 pm
Pulse response and bandwidth for optional 500MHz in interleaved channel mode

The 500MHz option is available for all the ones who would like to measure that high occasionally, but don’t need it on all channels at the same time.

Here is the frequency response:

[attachimg=2 width=800]
SDS2354Xplus 2GSa 8bit 1GHz

As you can see, my pre-production sample does a fairly decent job:

-1.0dB @ 430MHz
-1.7dB @ 500MHz
-3.0dB @ 570MHz


Here’s the pulse response to a 60MHz squarewave with fast edges:

[attachimg=1 width=800]
SDS2354X+_2GSa_Pulse_60MHz_D

In this screenshot, we can spot a number of nice features:

•   The 7-digit frequency counter (how many other 2000 series DSOs have that?) right below the Siglent logo. The actual signal frequency has been measured as 59.9999459MHz, so the deviation is only 0.265ppm. Not bad for a DSO in this class.
•   A nice display with working intensity grading
•   Stable measurements (except overshoot), indicated by low standard deviation in the statistics.
•   Optional histograms for the measurement statistics that can be enlarged for further analysis if so desired.
•   Rise time measurement of ~720ps average, which would hint on a bandwidth just below 500MHz for an input channel with Gaussian filter shape, but that’s certainly not a valid method to determine the bandwidth of a DSO. We already know it’s actually 570MHz.

Finally let’s see the frequency domain of that signal:

[attachimg=3 width=800]
SDS2354X+_2GSa_Pulse_60MHz_FFT

We can see that the harmonics of the signal extend well beyond 1GHz and it is not a perfect rectangle, as the even harmonics are still quite strong.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on November 16, 2019, 03:19:00 pm
Given your statements, I guess you would be flabbergasted if I you knew the percentage in the Siglent sales statistics which are enterprise purchases these days…
You have to split that per type of equipment.
And what makes you think I haven't done that?
Of course I was talking about oscilloscopes exclusively here.

Apart from genuine Siglent, what do you think who the primary customers for Teledyne Test Tools are? Guess what the T3DSO1000 and T3DSO2000 series is?

When I was talking to application engineers from LeCroy, no one has told me that Siglent DSOs don't work as expected. But no wonder, as LeCroy might have more options to control the record length and/or sample rate, but essentially follows the same principle otherwise. Likewise, Pico Technology have decades of experience, are the world market leader in USB instruments and their PicoScopes work exactly this way.


I have no problem recommending the simpler Siglent gear (if it has mature firmware) to customers but oscilloscopes... no. There is just no way to smooth over / explain the limitations on the oscilloscopes I outlined earlier. The people I deal with have used other equipment so they know how an oscilloscope is supposed to work.
I'm sorry to hear that, but then again, I do not recommend certain instruments either – with the tiny difference that I could not be bothered (and don't have the time) to post my complaints in just about every thread about brands and products that I neither like nor use.

The topic has been discussed ad nauseam already and no one else has been so fanatic about this. A relevant and comprehensive contribution has been made here in reply #30:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1220-siglent-sds5000x-1ghz-oscilloscope-review/msg2489091/#msg2489091 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1220-siglent-sds5000x-1ghz-oscilloscope-review/msg2489091/#msg2489091)

The memory selection on the Siglent DSOs allows to intentionally lower the sample rate – only at slower timebase settings of course, because the minimum is 20kpts in interleaved mode on the SDS2000X+. The main purpose of this is to control the maximum number of segments for history and sequence recording (FFT has its own length selection by now).

Of course, offering everything at once and having it all configurable to meet everyone’s taste and habits would be the ultimate solution (if only to see what comes next) – provided it does not require a major redesign of the acquisition engine.

I might eventually discuss this topic with fellow consultants/testers as well as Siglent R&D. If it turns out that it would be easy to implement without risks, then it could become a (low priority) request.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on November 16, 2019, 03:49:04 pm
XY-Mode

It is often said that DSOs suck at XY – and while they cannot compete with their analog grandparents indeed, we can still get decent performance even from a DSO nowadays.

I would like to show how far Siglent got with this – you can expect a similar performance on all current instruments based on the new platform (SDS1000X-E, SDS2000X-E, SDS5000X).

Here’s a screenshot, showing an 8QAM I/Q signal with rather weird settings, providing a rather complex rotating figure. Thanks to the intensity grading we almost get something like a smeared rotating constellation diagram :)

[attachimg=2 width=800]
SDS2354X+_XY_1Mpts_IQ_8QAM_1Hz_1MS

Please note that the record length is 1Mpts in this example and the acquisition length is 1ms, hence signals down to 1kHz can be properly displayed.

To demonstrate the performance, I had to use an old camera since the limited framerate of the web interface would give a false impression of the performance. Please see the attached video for a demo.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: nctnico on November 16, 2019, 04:28:13 pm
The memory selection on the Siglent DSOs allows to intentionally lower the sample rate – only at slower timebase settings of course, because the minimum is 20kpts in interleaved mode on the SDS2000X+. The main purpose of this is to control the maximum number of segments for history and sequence recording (FFT has its own length selection by now).
But what is the purpose of history mode? I've seen this on a Yokogawa oscilloscope and R&S has it as well but I don't really see a particular use for having a history. If you want to acquire segments then you might as well turn on segmented recording.
Quote
Of course, offering everything at once and having it all configurable to meet everyone’s taste and habits would be the ultimate solution
Which is why the A-brands (except for Keysight which always uses maximum memory) all have a selection to set the memory to a fixed length. And I'm not writing this because I want to bash Siglent; I want Siglent to become better at making oscilloscopes in order to get a more competitive oscilloscope market. BTW Picoscope may be different but they are only serving a niche market (which they dominate) with specific requirements.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Pinkus on November 16, 2019, 04:47:57 pm
Siglents product page (in Chinese, use Google translate) including pricing:
https://www.siglent.com/products-overview/sds2000xp/#navs (https://www.siglent.com/products-overview/sds2000xp/#navs)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on November 16, 2019, 11:50:43 pm
But what is the purpose of history mode? I've seen this on a Yokogawa oscilloscope and R&S has it as well but I don't really see a particular use for having a history. If you want to acquire segments then you might as well turn on segmented recording.
Every serious DSO has history mode – not only Yokogawa and R&S, but of course also Keysight and LeCroy, the latter even have WaveScan, a very powerful tool that can do much more than a simple search.

Segmented recording is a special mode for optimizing memory usage and minimizing blind time for events with irregular occurrence. It is set up on purpose and has no real time screen update.

History is running in the background just in case we need it. This is the big advantage: it is always there, we can never forget to turn it on and we need not plan anything in advance. There can be many situations where we might want have a look at previous acquisitions again.

During a debugging process we might spot some unexpected event, and by the time we hit the stop button the screen has already been overwritten by new acquisitions. We might even have an idea how to trigger this particular event, but would have to set that trigger (and hope that it actually works) and then wait until the same thing happens again (maybe for a long time, especially when we have the wrong trigger). With history we can look at that very event immediately. We can try various search conditions or just find the event visually during playback or even single stepping (which is of course not an option if the history contains thousands of frames).

History can replace sequence recording for regular events or in general, whenever minimum blind time is not paramount. Infrequent serial messages would be an example for this. We choose the record length so that we always catch a command/response pair (assuming that they are closely spaced) and can use zoom if we really want to look at some details, in short: just work as usual. But we can also stop the acquisition anytime by entering the history, where we can closely inspect not only the current record, but also all the command/response pairs from the past.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: egonotto on November 17, 2019, 06:21:56 am
Hello,

how many bits is a point in SDS2000X Plus and SDS5000X if you save to a file?
And if you use 10 bit on SDS2000X Plus does it change the memory size in points?

Best regards
egonotto
 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on November 17, 2019, 09:43:01 am
how many bits is a point in SDS2000X Plus and SDS5000X if you save to a file?
And if you use 10 bit on SDS2000X Plus does it change the memory size in points?
SDS5000X and SDS2000X+ save 8bit data. Full scale on the sreen is equivalent to 240 LSB.

SDS2000X+ in 10bit mode saves 16bit data, but of course only 10 bits resolution. Full scale on the sreen is equivalent to 960 LSB.

The memory depth in points does not change when you toggle between 8 and 10 bit acquisition as long as the record does not use the max. memory depth. The binary file size doubles in 10bit mode, CSV data size does not change of course.

The maximum memory is halved in 10bit mode. So with all channels active, you get a max. record length of normally 100Mpts but only 50Mpts in 10bit mode. In this case the record length would change accordingly when you toggle 10bit mode.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: egonotto on November 17, 2019, 11:35:24 am
Hello,

thanks Performa01.

If you use hi res mod (Eres) is than a point more than 8 bits?
And if yes, is max memory than smaller?

And if you use the Digital Channels affected this the memory size of the analog channels?

Best regards
egonotto


Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on November 17, 2019, 12:26:24 pm
If you use hi res mod (Eres) is than a point more than 8 bits?
And if yes, is max memory than smaller?

And if you use the Digital Channels affected this the memory size of the analog channels?
ERES is not an acquisition mode anymore, but a math function (LeCroy send their regards!).
This has many advantages. You still have the original data available and filter just the channel(s) where you really need it, even with different settings, without compromising the other channels. Furthermore you can apply ERES to a math expression.

EDIT: Ah, and yes, the ERES math trace has the higher resolution of course.

Because of this, the memory doesn't get smaller as it has been the case with ERES as acquisition mode. SDS5000X for instance is limited to 25Mpts per channel pair in ERES acquisition mode.

Analog memory depth is not affected by activation of the digital channels. You still have 200Mpts per channel pair available.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: egonotto on November 17, 2019, 01:14:22 pm
Hello,

thanks Performa01.

Can it be, that the SDS5000X has 1GB of memory overall?

Best regards
egonotto
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on November 17, 2019, 01:32:25 pm
Hi Egonotto,

this might be true for the acquisition memory, as this would be 866MB for the analog channels (including history) plus (at least!) 125MB for the digital channels, that makes a total of 991MB, hence close to 1GB.

But apart from that the scope needs a lot of memory for the operating system and all the processing - measurements, math, serial decoders, mask editor, power analysis, web server, display management...

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: egonotto on November 17, 2019, 01:54:04 pm
Hi Performa01,

perhaps the memory for the processor is a separate memory.

Best regards
egonotto

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: nctnico on November 17, 2019, 02:18:46 pm
But what is the purpose of history mode? I've seen this on a Yokogawa oscilloscope and R&S has it as well but I don't really see a particular use for having a history. If you want to acquire segments then you might as well turn on segmented recording.
Every serious DSO has history mode – not only Yokogawa and R&S, but of course also Keysight and LeCroy, the latter even have WaveScan, a very powerful tool that can do much more than a simple search.

Segmented recording is a special mode for optimizing memory usage and minimizing blind time for events with irregular occurrence. It is set up on purpose and has no real time screen update.
No. The HP/Agilent/Keysight scopes I have owned & used so far didn't have history mode. By default they use full memory. And it isn't true segmented mode is purely intended to offer fast acquisition of repeating events. For that deep memory is equally useful because you won't save much memory anyway. Some DSOs even have a fast & slow segmented recording mode. In slow mode the progress is shown on screen. In fast mode you don't see anything until the number of segments if captured or press 'stop'.

Quote
History can replace sequence recording for regular events or in general, whenever minimum blind time is not paramount. Infrequent serial messages would be an example for this. We choose the record length so that we always catch a command/response pair (assuming that they are closely spaced) and can use zoom if we really want to look at some details, in short: just work as usual. But we can also stop the acquisition anytime by entering the history, where we can closely inspect not only the current record, but also all the command/response pairs from the past.
But do you ever use history mode? Does anyone else feel it is important? IMHO history mode is pretty much useless to look back at 'accidental' signals. In most cases you'll have so many triggers per second that by the time you press the 'stop' button the signal is gone from the buffer anyway. And how to make sure that what you look at is related to a known circumstance?

When I use segmented recording I want the set of acquisitions to be related to a specific measurement condition. I rarely use segmented recording though; deep memory is much easier. Just scroll left/right. I have this with logic analysers too. The first logic analyser I owned had 1kpts per channel. Capturing specific events was very hard because it required setting up very specific triggers. My second logic analyser had (IIRC) 128kpts per channel and an even more advanced trigger system. However I used advanced triggering less. My current logic analyser has 32Mpts and with that amount of memory it doesn't even matter much when to trigger. Sometime I just start it manually because I know it will capture an entire cycle anyway (for example data to a TFT display). After that I can analyse the signals and the best thing is that all the data is related to the same circumstance. So if I see something weird at one point, I can look at the data preceding the event because it is all there (100% related to each other). I use a DSO in the same way.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on November 17, 2019, 03:03:34 pm
I never claimed that long memory isn’t useful, quite the contrary.
I was talking about irregular events, but should have better said low duty cycle events, because it actually does not matter if the spacing is constant or not.
In these cases, deep memory is not enough (and inconvenient) and segmented memory is all the more important for DSOs with a lack of deep memory, like the current Keysight midrange instruments.
On a DSO with deep memory and 90000 history entries, you have all the time in this world to stop and look back.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: nctnico on November 17, 2019, 03:40:30 pm
Now you are contradicting yourself because your DSO with history has a small amount of memory depth on purpose and enables a crutch to make up for small memory by default. That just doesn't make sense. And looking back requires a lot more button pushes and it likely isn't possible to put the recordings side-by-side horizontally so you can scroll through a contiguous signal. Having one big segment and scrolling left/right is much easier to work with. Besides that the history mode doesn't work if the trigger condition is not met for the signal so you will lose whatever interesting things are happening before or after the trigger event if it happens to be just outside the screen.

But this discussion is going in circles. The bottom line is that Siglent really should add fixed memory length settings instead of always using automatic memory length which is just enough for the screen width. This should be at the top of the list with items to fix because without it they are behind on the competition. There is no working-around that.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: jemangedeslolos on November 18, 2019, 09:37:57 am
Hello Performa01,

Thank you for the explanations.
It will be my main scope and I have a MSO5000 as a second scope when I have to work at home who does not have shared control.
I need to see by myself if it is not so disturbing. I will wait a review to see a side by side comparison between the SDS2354X Plus and the SDS5034X.
The price difference between these two will be decisive  ;D

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Martin72 on December 21, 2019, 09:43:00 pm
Hi,

Reading this thread, I don´t see any advantages against
Quote
I have a MSO5000
except the 50Ohm inputs on the hardware side.

Apart from this, I don´t like the "A-Brands" discussions every time a new model from rigol or siglent comes up.
Siglent and rigol makes decent scopes for hobbyists affordable, not less or more.
We all should keep this in mind, when moaning/judging about some supposed quirks.
If we could spend for example 2000 bucks, what do we get from siglent, rigol, r&s, tektronix, lecroy, keysight, this is the right question.
And this is the discussion framework within which we should move.
At company, I work with a waverunner 9054 from lecroy everyday since we got it - At home there is my MSO5 from rigol waiting.
It´s no comparison at all, but this is "natural" .
Nevertheless I could also work with it.
At home.
Doing hobbyist things.
If I need/want to do professional things, I buy a professional scope.
That´s all.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Frex on December 22, 2019, 07:58:30 am
Hello tautech,

I look to replace in some time my MSO2072A and this new SDS2000X Plus would fit well.
Anyway, what about noise floor of this new scope ?
What aquisition modes are available too ?
Does 10 bits mode improve FFT dynamic range ?
I would really appreciate if you are able to take some measurements about this. Regards.

Frex
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: tautech on December 22, 2019, 09:01:15 am
Hello tautech,

I look to replace in some time my MSO2072A and this new SDS2000X Plus would fit well.
Anyway, what about noise floor of this new scope ?
What aquisition modes are available too ?
Does 10 bits mode improve FFT dynamic range ?
I would really appreciate if you are able to take some measurements about this. Regards.

Frex
Frex, we'll have to wait some 6 weeks before public release unless Performa01 can share with us these details.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: rf-loop on December 22, 2019, 09:12:47 am
@Performa01: Does Siglent have any plans to get rid of the automatic memory depth setting? For me the automatic memory depth adjustment is a total productivity killer. It annoyed the hell out of me during the short time I had the SDS2000.
The short answer is no, sorry.


The zoom window supports math, automatic and cursor measurements as well as mask test.

The maximal record length can be limited in order to reduce the sample rate and/or get more history segments.

Any acquisition strategy that would hide a single sample from instant view would annoy the hell out of me. Thankfully, Siglent will continue to follow PicoTech and LeCroy in this regard.

We get a lot of feedback from professional Siglent users and I think it's most indicative that not one has ever questioned this acquisition strategy.


And how about full memory decoding? It is about time Siglent addresses this too.
This is a (mis)leading question.


 :clap:

Strong Yes!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: nctnico on December 22, 2019, 10:32:21 am
And how about full memory decoding? It is about time Siglent addresses this too.
This is a (mis)leading question. While there are certain (protocol dependent) limits for the total number of table entries (bytes, words, double words, packets) which in turn obviously limits the maximum record length that can be fully decoded (at least if oversampling is low), not many apart from you would consider the following screenshot with a total of 45 decoded I2C messages as not full memory decoding:
But it still needs the zoom crutch. Everyone can walk faster without a crutch. Also decoding only what is on screen gives you the problem that it is nearly impossible to correlate messages which may be in different parts of the acquisition memory. Get a Keysight or R&S scope on your bench and see how easy it is to be able to go through the entire record with timestamps relative to each packet. Same for the automatic memory length. For the millionth time: limiting the memory size to the visible screen only is a serious productivity limitation. There is no arguing around that other than using yet another crutch (going back & forth between time/div settings). Everyone can walk faster without a crutch.

Remember I used to own an SDS2000 and the automatic memory selection annoyed the hell out of me. And no, automatic memory length is not a typical Lecroy feature. The Wavepro 7200A I have allows to select between automatic and fixed memory length just like any other oscilloscope I have. Except for the SDS2000 I don't recall having owned any other DSO which did not allow to select a fixed memory length.

Reasoning that none of the customers has asked for it is more indicative of the kind of customers Siglent has than automatic memory selection should be standard. Power users like me that need to have an oscilloscope which works efficiently will ask for it (or silently just don't buy the oscilloscopes from Siglent). Siglent has come a long way in the past few years and now they really have to start addressing the productivity issues (at least on the higher end models) in order to really compete with the A-brands.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on December 22, 2019, 10:49:27 am
Anyway, what about noise floor of this new scope ?
It's in line with other Siglent X-series DSOs.

Here are some measurements with 1Mpts, 2GSa/s (resulting measurement bandwidth is 2kHz ~ 1GHz) at 1mV/div:

Full bandwidth (570MHz): 80µV RMS
Bandwidth limit 200MHz: 54µV RMS
Bandwidth limit 20MHz: 30µV RMS

As expected, 10 Bit Mode does not change much at high input sensitivities, because the noise from the analog frontend is dominating:
Full bandwidth (100MHz): 36µV RMS
Bandwidth limit 20MHz: 27µV RMS

See attached screenshots.

What aquisition modes are available too ?
Only Normal (aka Sample) and Peak Detect.
Average and ERES are now implemented as math functions. I'll post some demonstrations of ERES later.

Does 10 bits mode improve FFT dynamic range ?
No, It cannot. 10bit mode is accomplished by oversampling, taking advantage on the highly linear ADC.
FFT implicitely does something similar and vastly increases the dynamic range by itself, so 10bit mode is no benefit here.

Here's an example of a 30MHz carrier, 5% amplitude modulated at 100kHz. Visible (and spurious free!) dynamic range is 80dB and the peak table confirms that it is fully operational. That's better than many old swept SA boat anchors out there...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=894586;image)
SDS2354X+_30MHz_3dBm_AM100kHz_5%
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on December 22, 2019, 11:14:23 am
ERES

ERES means enhanced resolution and enhancement is available from 0.5 bits to 3 bits in 0.5 bit steps. You don't specify the vertical resolution with this, but the (theoretical) enhancment of the ENOB (Effective Number Of Bits). The vertical resolution is twice as high, so 3.0 bits enhancements get you 6 bits additional vertical resolution, hence a total of 14 bits.

Look at the screenshot below:

[attachimg=1 width=800]
SDS2354X+_Math_ERES2_8bit

This shows a zoomed view of the input signal (1kHz sinewave) which shows exactly one sample per division at a 16mV/div scale. So the LSB of the original sample data is equivalent to 16mV.

The ERES math trace with 2.0 bits enhancement in the zoom window shows two samples per division at a 2mV/div scale, hence one LSB is now only 1mV. This is a 16 times improvement, equivalent to 4 bits.

Effectively the math trace shows the signal with 12bit resolution.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on December 22, 2019, 11:37:09 am
ERES 2

The noise reduction effect of ERES.

The following experiment uses the base noise at 100mV/div, where the contribution from the analog frontend is almost negligible.

At 100mV/div, one LSB is equivalent to 3.33mV. The zoom window at 5mV/div shows the granular +/-1 LSB noise of the input signal as +/-0.66 div (green trace).

The orange ERES math trace is scaled at 5mV/div, so it is directly comparable to the input signal.  The granular noise after 1.0 bits of resolution enhancement is correspondingly lower:

[attachimg=1 width=800]
SDS2354X+_Noise_50_100mV_ERES_1bit

The following screenshots show the same view, but with 2.0 and 3.0 bits of resolution enhancement:

[attachimg=2 width=800]
SDS2354X+_Noise_50_100mV_ERES_2bit

[attachimg=3 width=800]
SDS2354X+_Noise_50_100mV_ERES_3bit

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on December 22, 2019, 08:03:41 pm
Average

Average is another function that has been changed from an acquisition mode to a math function. One of the advantages is that we can now combine ERES and Average for the same signal. We can also use the new 10 bit acquisition mode which will theoretical increase the ENOB by 1.0 bits.

As a demonstration I’ve set up a 883µV RMS sine signal buried under a 5mV RMS noise carpet and 10 bit acquisition mode has been used. Triggering on the weak signal is accomplished over the sync output of the signal generator.

In the screenshot below we can see that the working intensity grading in this scope already reveals that there is a signal hidden under the noise. The math trace shows the input signal with 1024 times averaging, which makes it almost noise free, especially when considering the low signal level and the 1mV/div scale.

Automatic measurements show the properties of the original signal with a maximum amplitude of ~25mVpp and only ~2.33mV RMS (mean statistics value) – this is because the noise signal was set for 500MHz bandwidth, but the actual input bandwidth is only 100MHz in 10 bit mode, which results in a theoretical level of 2.24mV RMS.

The math trace measures the recovered sinewave as 2.78mVpp which is a bit too high because of the remaining noise (should actually be 2.5mVpp). Yet the RMS measurement is very accurate at 888µV (should be 883µV).

[attachimg=1 width=800]
SDS2354X+_Noise_5mV_sine_883uV_10bit_IG

Since the intensity grading already revealed that there is a sinewave hidden under the noise, color grading shows this even better:

[attachimg=2 width=800]
SDS2354X+_Noise_5mV_sine_883uV_10bit_CG

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Emo on January 03, 2020, 07:57:13 pm
Hi Performa01,

If I understand this correctly the new 10 bit acquisition mode is accomplished in software. Do you expect this to become available in other(high-end) models as well?

Eric
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on January 04, 2020, 07:07:23 am
Hi Eric,

the SDS2000X Plus is the first Siglent DSO that implements 16 bit data processing and display interface, which is the prerequisite for features like vertical zoom and opens up further opportunities, like the new HR (10 bit) acquisition mode.

The 16 bit data has been on the todo list for the SDS5000X right from the start and will be ported from the SDS2000X Plus ptototype implementation as soon as it is mature (which has already been the case for quite a while now from my point of view).

Contrary to my initial reservations, the 10 bit mode has proven to be quite useful (because of the excellent DNL of the ADC), so I expect it to be added to the SDS5000X and future DSOs in and above the 2000X class.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Performa01 on January 04, 2020, 07:01:32 pm
HR (10bit) + ERES

The good performance of the ADC in this DSO led me to trying something crazy: why not combine the 10bit HR acquisition mode with ERES 3.0, for a total of 16 bits of resolution?

[attachimg=1 width=800]
SDS2354X+_Math_ERES3_10bit_St

You can see the original trace in the upper window at a vertical gain of 960mV/div. Because in 10bit HR mode we get exactly 120LSB per division and one LSB is already reduced to 8mV, which is just a quarter of what it would be in 8bit mode.

In the zoom window at a vertical scale of 8mV/div we can see exactly one green dot per division, just as expected.

But now look at the orange math trace. Here the sensitivity is set to 500µV/div and we see exactly 4 dots per division, which is equivalent to 125µV for one LSB.

Look how evenly spaced the orange dots are. The total resolution is 16 bits and linearity looks still excellent.
Of course, the total bandwidth has dropped to just 14MHz now.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: mysiak on January 05, 2020, 10:13:29 am
I am tempted to get the Rigol MSO5074, hope Siglent will release this guy soon  :)

Is the bandwidth software unlockable ?
How is the screen's resolution? Similar to R&S quality? This is the only thing which bother's me a bit about Rigol.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: tautech on January 05, 2020, 10:20:41 am
I am tempted to get the Rigol MSO5074, hope Siglent will release this guy soon  :)
In just a few weeks are the hints I have.

Quote
Is the bandwidth software unlockable ?
There will be BW upgrade options from what we can see on the Chinese datasheet.

And welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: mysiak on January 05, 2020, 10:23:13 am
Thank you so much for an extremely quick reply.

I edited my very first post to ask about the screen's quality before I noticed you already replied. This forum community is just awesome!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: tautech on January 05, 2020, 07:56:18 pm
How is the screen's resolution?
1024x600 10.1" TFT-LCD
Quote
Similar to R&S quality?
Siglent's displays have always used a matt toughened glass so don't have the issues with mirroring the surrounding environment or lighting like some R&S models do.

Apparently some R&S owners have resorted to using a screen overlay to address the display reflections but that's plastic and with use might need replacing and for a touch display that might get lots of use this becomes an additional cost of ownership.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: nctnico on January 05, 2020, 08:04:44 pm
Apparently some R&S owners have resorted to using a screen overlay to address the display reflections but that's plastic and with use might need replacing and for a touch display that might get lots of use this becomes an additional cost of ownership.
Now you are being overly dramatic. From my own experience with several 'glossy' touch screen scopes the reflections are not an issue at all. Your eyes will focus on the display and by doing so get rid of the reflections. It is basic optics really.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: jjoonathan on January 06, 2020, 12:45:16 am
Matte screens can fuzz out the reflection of a light source situated right behind you, but by the same token, they gather light from sources that aren't right behind you and fuzz it into your display. Pick your poison.

Note that cell phone displays tend to be glossy to let you deal better with the reflection of the sun (!). If the sun is right behind you, its' reflection in your phone screen is a huge problem, if the sun isn't right behind you, its' reflection is a small problem. If you made the screen matte, the sun's reflection would always be a medium problem. Since it's usually possible to tilt your phone screen or change your orientation to pick the small problem over the huge problem, {small,huge} wins over {medium,medium}, and that's why smartphone screens tend to be glossy, because under those circumstances glossy provides better reflection control.

Of course, if the boss man had me chained to a desk across from a window, I'd want a matte screen :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: tautech on January 16, 2020, 09:23:26 am
Noteworthy and come release only 100, 200 and 350 MHz models have been made available to western markets.  :(

Edits with models and pricing made to the OP.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: Martin72 on January 16, 2020, 11:56:48 am
Noteworthy and come release only 100, 200 and 300 MHz models have been made available to western markets.  :(

To keep it below the bandwiths of the SDS5000 series, I guess..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: rf-loop on January 16, 2020, 02:15:22 pm
Noteworthy and come release only 100, 200 and 300 MHz models have been made available to western markets.  :(

Edits with models and pricing made to the OP.

100, 200 and 350MHz  and 350MHz model have 500MHz option.

Option SDS2000XP-4PW50  is availablein western markets and also english version datasheet tell it.
It is for SDS2354XPlus for upgrade it to 500MHz.*)

*)
as all know 1GSa/s fnyquist is 500MHz, so it is "useless" for 1GSa/s operation using rt sampling and Sinc, but afaik it can run 2GSa/s with 2 channels simultaneously and in this case 500MHz is ok with Nyquist and Sinc)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 16, 2020, 09:55:08 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gl1O8YHUso (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gl1O8YHUso)



https://www.batronix.com/versand/oszilloskope/Siglent-SDS2000X-plus.html (https://www.batronix.com/versand/oszilloskope/Siglent-SDS2000X-plus.html)

Rigol´s mso5000 is getting into trouble...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 16, 2020, 10:14:18 pm
Quote
So who is going to research if the hardware is the same and 100Mhz = 500Mhz. That would be a Rigol killer... for sure..

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds2000xplus-launched/msg2874388/#msg2874388 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds2000xplus-launched/msg2874388/#msg2874388)

Comparing to the mso5000....

50Ohm Inputs, probe-sensing, external trigger, bode plot integrated, bigger 10.1" screen....price for the 100Mhz version 1200€ (excl. VAT)....MSO5104 : 1100...
Makes me nervous…

What hacking to 500Mhz concerns:
Only the 350Mhz versions seems to be upgradable to 500 Mhz, so I think there will be a difference in hardware.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on January 16, 2020, 10:34:22 pm
Quote
So who is going to research if the hardware is the same and 100Mhz = 500Mhz. That would be a Rigol killer... for sure..

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds2000xplus-launched/msg2874388/#msg2874388 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds2000xplus-launched/msg2874388/#msg2874388)

Comparing to the mso5000....

50Ohm Inputs, probe-sensing, external trigger, bode plot integrated, bigger 10.1" screen....price for the 100Mhz version 1200€ (excl. VAT)....MSO5104 : 1100...
Makes me nervous…

What hacking to 500Mhz concerns:
Only the 350Mhz versions seems to be upgradable to 500 Mhz, so I think there will be a difference in hardware.

I think it will be an interesting battle!  Of course you should compare with 5074 since it's the lowest we can get.

Regarding the HW difference: maybe it's only on the factory calib.  How do they distinguish a 350 (upgraded from 100) and a 350 bought in the shop, in HW?

The ones that didn't reach the aprox 570 MHz BW, are rated 100 MHz models?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: maginnovision on January 16, 2020, 10:41:00 pm
For hobbyists I think they'd take the 4 channel rigol over the 4 channel siglent. 40% price difference. They should have gone the rigol route and just software locked the channels.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: supperman on January 16, 2020, 10:53:08 pm
I think it is simple.. the hardware is the same on all models.

I think it is just marketing:

1. They don't want the 2000x plus to step on the 5000x but they also don't want to loose sales to Rigol.
2. They don't want to be in the upgrade business.. so this is probably a one off.. till a 500 comes out.
3. They are still working out software issues at 500mhz but feel confident the hardware can do it.

It is also possible (like with the 5000x) that initial hardware has some issues.. and they sort them into bandwidth buckets depending on how pronounced it is. This probably means that the 100Mhz can still do 450Mhz just fine if it does not make the cut.. If this is the case it will improve quickly as they work on production issues..

My 2 C's

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: supperman on January 16, 2020, 10:56:56 pm
For hobbyists I think they'd take the 4 channel rigol over the 4 channel siglent. 40% price difference. They should have gone the rigol route and just software locked the channels.

I think another reason the 100Mhz can be "upgraded" to 500Mhz... to cash in on the hobby market.. and beat out Rigol.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thm_w on January 16, 2020, 11:01:37 pm
Canadian pricing here:
https://www.transcat.ca/brand/siglent-store/oscilloscope (https://www.transcat.ca/brand/siglent-store/oscilloscope)
https://www.transcat.ca/brand/siglent-store/oscilloscope/siglent-sds2104x-plus-100mhz-4ch-digital-oscilloscope (https://www.transcat.ca/brand/siglent-store/oscilloscope/siglent-sds2104x-plus-100mhz-4ch-digital-oscilloscope) ($1447 USD)
Datasheet: https://www.transcat.ca/media/pdf/siglent-SDS2000X-Plus-Datasheet.pdf (https://www.transcat.ca/media/pdf/siglent-SDS2000X-Plus-Datasheet.pdf)
Rigol is $999 or 909 for 2 probes.

So again our prices are higher than the Euro prices (1200 EUR = $1336 USD).

Interleaved, 2Gs/s with 2 channels, 1GS/s with 4 channels on. Which means a realistic bandwidth of ~400MHz for all four channels. Still not bad.

If you have the budget and want low noise (80uV rms noise at 500MHz), its good value, assuming it can be hacked.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 16, 2020, 11:15:30 pm
Rigols´benefits are the 8GS/s and the waste amount of memory or/and math functions, also using 4 math functions at the same time, also the 2 channel wavegenerator, also waste amount of trigger functions.
I´m waiting for the next fw update, should be come end of this month.
If it´s too disappointing, I´ll have a look to the 2000 plus...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: supperman on January 17, 2020, 12:02:57 am
I think it is simple.. the hardware is the same on all models.

I think it is just marketing:

1. They don't want the 2000x plus to step on the 5000x but they also don't want to loose sales to Rigol.
2. They don't want to be in the upgrade business.. so this is probably a one off.. till a 500 comes out.
3. They are still working out software issues at 500mhz but feel confident the hardware can do it.

It is also possible (like with the 5000x) that initial hardware has some issues.. and they sort them into bandwidth buckets depending on how pronounced it is. This probably means that the 100Mhz can still do 450Mhz just fine if it does not make the cut.. If this is the case it will improve quickly as they work on production issues..

My 2 C's

I spoke too soon.. looking at the data sheet gives us another clue.. You can upgrade up from any speed.. 100 to 200. 200 to 350 and 350 to 500mhz. No mention of any restrictions. There is actually a code to go from 100 to 350 for 2 channel scopes.
Did they forget to mention you can't get more than one upgrade.. or is it fine..



Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: supperman on January 17, 2020, 12:06:11 am
Bandwidth upgrade, 350 to 500 MHz, 4 channel models
$1,399.00

https://siglentna.com/product/bandwidth-upgrade-350-to-500-mhz-4-channel-models-2/

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on January 17, 2020, 12:31:11 am
Bandwidth upgrade, 350 to 500 MHz, 4 channel models
$1,399.00

https://siglentna.com/product/bandwidth-upgrade-350-to-500-mhz-4-channel-models-2/
Yes but in comes with this limitation:
SDS2000XP-4BW05 Upgrade SDS2354X Plus bandwidth to 500 MHz (Only two channels)

Study reply #21 earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: ResistorRob on January 17, 2020, 12:34:46 am
Finally after years of waiting someone came out with a scope that actually has the features I want at a price I can afford. The Rigol MSO5000 looked amazing but it's dim screen was a deal breaker. I heard this is fixed... can anyone confirm this?

I'm wanting a 100MHz, 4 Channel touchscreen scope. Between this new Siglent and the Rigol MSO5000 does anyone know what the key differences are? If it was your $1,400 which one would you buy? That is like 3 weeks of pay for me, so I need to get this right on the first purchase!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thm_w on January 17, 2020, 12:47:02 am
Finally after years of waiting someone came out with a scope that actually has the features I want at a price I can afford. The Rigol MSO5000 looked amazing but it's dim screen was a deal breaker. I heard this is fixed... can anyone confirm this?

I'm wanting a 100MHz, 4 Channel touchscreen scope. Between this new Siglent and the Rigol MSO5000 does anyone know what the key differences are? If it was your $1,400 which one would you buy? That is like 3 weeks of pay for me, so I need to get this right on the first purchase!

Screen was never an issue for me and others. But without seeing it in person its hard to say if it works for you. It was improved.

If your budget is $1,500 then get this, if $1,000 then get the Rigol. I would also consider waiting until siglent has been hacked.
The main differences I can think of: Siglent has a lower noise front end,  10" vs 9" screen, 50 ohm. Rigol: hdmi, higher sample rate, dedicated channel knobs. But its going to depend on yourself to decide, don't get others to choose for you.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: supperman on January 17, 2020, 12:48:05 am
Bandwidth upgrade, 350 to 500 MHz, 4 channel models
$1,399.00

https://siglentna.com/product/bandwidth-upgrade-350-to-500-mhz-4-channel-models-2/
Yes but in comes with this limitation:
SDS2000XP-4BW05 Upgrade SDS2354X Plus bandwidth to 500 MHz (Only two channels)

Study reply #21 earlier in this thread.

That is a sample rate restrictions.. 2Gs for 2 channels.. 1Gs for all 4..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thm_w on January 17, 2020, 12:50:17 am
That is a sample rate restrictions.. 2Gs for 2 channels.. 1Gs for all 4..

So how well do you think 1Gs/s is going to work at 500 MHz?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: rf-loop on January 17, 2020, 06:54:33 am
But what is the purpose of history mode? I've seen this on a Yokogawa oscilloscope and R&S has it as well but I don't really see a particular use for having a history. If you want to acquire segments then you might as well turn on segmented recording.
Every serious DSO has history mode – not only Yokogawa and R&S, but of course also Keysight and LeCroy, the latter even have WaveScan, a very powerful tool that can do much more than a simple search.

Segmented recording is a special mode for optimizing memory usage and minimizing blind time for events with irregular occurrence. It is set up on purpose and has no real time screen update.
No. The HP/Agilent/Keysight scopes I have owned & used so far didn't have history mode. By default they use full memory. And it isn't true segmented mode is purely intended to offer fast acquisition of repeating events. For that deep memory is equally useful because you won't save much memory anyway. Some DSOs even have a fast & slow segmented recording mode. In slow mode the progress is shown on screen. In fast mode you don't see anything until the number of segments if captured or press 'stop'.

"Some DSO,s even have...."   yes Siglent have.
Fast segmented acquisition mode and slow mode. Fast mode user need set and select for use (sequence acq).  Siglent slow segmented mode do not need turn on, it is always on and working background continuously (also it do not affect wfm/s speed  and it do not record image frames, it record true acquisitions with full ADC data and time stamps to segment memory (aka history) fifo).

Is it so that word "History" turn your blind spot on or what... only drawback is that this Siglent slow speed segmented acquisition mode (= normal mode ) do not show segment number when it is capturing and user can not set number of segments before stop. It run current run state maximum amount of segments fifo continuously.  (Perhaps Siglent can add this feature if there is enough demand. This is perhaps useful in cases where slow trigger events and want see segments on the screen before total is reached and handled.  Other ways need look empty screen some minutes or hours and only see segment counter progress.  )

Time ago one professional was looking new scope and I ask if he need also segmented memory or history function.
No, I do not need, also my old scope have not. I have never needed this kind of things.

Can I show you still what they are and some simple examples how to use these?

After one hour and tens of questions and some kind of explanations I ask if he still think these features are "no need" for his new scope.  Answer was clear, I do not want any new scope without least this slow sequence feature.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 17, 2020, 01:06:48 pm
What is your point? By your own definition history mode isn't a replacement for slow segmented recording.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: edigi on January 17, 2020, 01:53:36 pm
So how well do you think 1Gs/s is going to work at 500 MHz?

The trouble that 1Gs/s does not work well even for 350 or for 200 MHz signals. I mean non-sinusoidal signals.
So while based on the period you may have the false impression that it will fit to the Nyquist limit but simply in many cases the spectral content of the signal can easily exceed that.
If that happens you have aliasing, and as a consequence what you see on the display is not what the signal looks like in reality.
(Having strong input filtering does not help much since that also removes spectral content thus distorts the signal).
E.g. how far would you go with a Square signal with 1Gs/s? Maybe somewhere 20-25 MHz? How fast signals modern MCUs or CPLDs/FPGAs can generate?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 17, 2020, 01:58:25 pm
So how well do you think 1Gs/s is going to work at 500 MHz?

The trouble that 1Gs/s does not work well even for 350 or for 200 MHz signals. I mean non-sinusoidal signals.
So while based on the period you may have the false impression that it will fit to the Nyquist limit but simply in many cases the spectral content of the signal can easily exceed that.
If that happens you have aliasing, and as a consequence what you see on the display is not what the signal looks like in reality.
(Having strong input filtering does not help much since that also removes spectral content thus distorts the signal).
You are going down the wrong path here. If you want to look at a signal with high frequency components you need an oscilloscope with enough bandwidth. Otherwise the anti-aliasing filter will chop off the higher frequency components and show what is left. But either way you always need to think about how the oscilloscope + probe will affect the signal you are looking at so you are not chasing ghosts.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: rf-loop on January 17, 2020, 02:01:53 pm
@Performa01: Does Siglent have any plans to get rid of the automatic memory depth setting? For me the automatic memory depth adjustment is a total productivity killer. It annoyed the hell out of me during the short time I had the SDS2000.
The short answer is no, sorry.

What engineers want to do is capture a record that represents a certain timespan. What is easier and feels more natural:

•   Select the main timebase for the required total timespan and then adjust the zoom timebase for closer inspection of details
or
•   Calculate the required memory depth from the required timespan and current sample rate, dig into the Acquisition menu to select the appropriate memory depth (provided it could be selected with similar fine granularity as the timebase) and then have to scroll back and forth through the buffer in order to inspect the entire acquisition
?
You (and Siglent) forgot one very simple use case: trigger on part of a signal and when that looks OK change the timebase to look at the rest of the signal (which was outside the screen during capture). I use this regulary during design verification. And this is much easier to achieve than you think: just set the oscilloscope to the maximum memory depth and leave it at that. I have my oscilloscopes set to the maximum memory depth 99.9% of the time. It is very handy to be able zoom out or pan left/right to examine the signal which was outside the screen. With Siglent's automatic memory depth I'd need to change the time base for each capture twice which is just time consuming and irritating. And why not have the maximum memory depth available? Otherwise the memory just sits there idle anyway.


First this "I have my oscilloscopes set to the maximum memory depth 99.9% of the time."
With 200Mpts and 2GSa/s one acquisition takes 100ms. Are you still sure you want keep oscilloscope nearly always, 99.9%, set for max memory depth.  Why need zoom out, also you can use it (zoom out) only after stop in certain scopes.
If I need this kind of, I will turn zoom mode on and look whole memory and details at once and pan zoomed window where ever need. Most of scopes do not even loose vertical resolution using this method. It is just better to learn and adapt for use windowed zoom as "normal" mode. And more when also scopes start get more vertical height and resolution screens.

I do not want scope what have lot of visual blind time, hidden data,  at runtime. If I do work what need long capture and still details I turn windowed zoom on.  I remember well this time when example Owon did not even have windowed zoom, it have only full screen zoom alone. I have never used so frustrating system. And your working method is just like using full screen zoom, your runtime window is zoomed part of whole acquisition and you can not see rest at all in runtime, you need stop scope. And most captured trace out from screen and then full hassle to find some things there and always stop scope and pan and zoom.
Using scope where whole capture is always visible without overlapp and then zoom window for detail. You have always knowledge about whole capture and where your details window is related to whole trace and this all can do runtime and stopped.
Why need think all need  do as always before have done. Human can learn new modes of operations. But also of course one may like tulips and one may like fish.  And yes, I remember this first reaction after I have adapted this other system what you expolain... it was first some "shock" when I meet this Siglent principle. How hell I can do my works now, how I can find rest of traces... I zoom out and no...nothing...  how this can use. Perhaps this is some kind of bug...or what hell. (There was also full memory available outside of screen in Siglent older models, also as in many many other scopes.
But after then I start use it and today I do not at all miss this method at all.. more like vice versa, I wonder why many still do these. But it need learn so that it is part of your muscle memory and thinking process. Just like changing from algebraic calculator to calculators rolls royces, HP RPN and after familiar, then do not want use any others anymore. But I know, there is peoples who can not or want not use or learn to use RPN.

Lets hope Siglent stay calm and continue this selected road.
What is captured need show and decode (except if decode max data amount is reached.) You many times ask why Siglent do not decode full memory. (It do but somehow you don not want accept it)  But I can ask, why many scopes mostly do not display full currently used memory length at runtime... when they start make scopes what can display all what is captured and runtime, wit details.

With these user need stop scope for look this data. With Siglent whole data is visible and can look also runtime, including details, even when capture length is hundreds of megasamples.

Also always bacround working slow segmented acquisition is part of this total. If we always capture your full memory length there is no enought amount enough fast memory and processing power for history buffer. Of course data can cut and use only displayed part
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Fungus on January 17, 2020, 02:42:46 pm
I think it will be an interesting battle!  Of course you should compare with 5074 since it's the lowest we can get.

If the Siglent isn't hacable then it's going to be MUCH more expensive for equivalent features to a hacked Rigol.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 17, 2020, 02:45:43 pm
So how well do you think 1Gs/s is going to work at 500 MHz?

The trouble that 1Gs/s does not work well even for 350 or for 200 MHz signals. I mean non-sinusoidal signals.
So while based on the period you may have the false impression that it will fit to the Nyquist limit but simply in many cases the spectral content of the signal can easily exceed that.
If that happens you have aliasing, and as a consequence what you see on the display is not what the signal looks like in reality.
(Having strong input filtering does not help much since that also removes spectral content thus distorts the signal).
E.g. how far would you go with a Square signal with 1Gs/s? Maybe somewhere 20-25 MHz? How fast signals modern MCUs or CPLDs/FPGAs can generate?

Oscilloscopes BW is defined for sinewave.
100MHz non sinusoidal signal is not 100MHz sinusoidal signal and oscilloscope for 100MHz BW is not for this (depending need of accuracy and true signal).
This have been clear to all educated and or experienced oscilloscope users tens of years. As long as I can remember backwards. But still this kind of talk pops up frequently and continuously. Why. 100MHz what is not 100MHz and then 100MHz BW is not enough...
Who do not still know what is oscilloscope BW "definition" and about digital scopes who do not still understand what Nyquist and Shannon have told and also what HPs Chris Rehorn have told about digital scopes.  Even with old time with analog scopes we know what is oscilloscope BW meaning. Still some wonder why 100MHz scope can not display 100MHz square waves.
1GSa/s is enough for 350MHz sinewave with normal fast Sinc interpolation when we are talking about normal use of scope with its accuracy class. It is some times  not at all enough even 1Hz square wave, some times 1GHz BW is not enough for 1Hz square and we need talk what BW need if need measure real fast risetime with some good accuracy ... it may surprice.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: nctnico on January 17, 2020, 02:46:45 pm
Lets hope Siglent stay calm and continue this selected road.
What is captured need show and decode (except if decode max data amount is reached.) You many times ask why Siglent do not decode full memory. (It do but somehow you don not want accept it)  But I can ask, why many scopes mostly do not display full currently used memory length at runtime... when they start make scopes what can display all what is captured and runtime, wit details.
You and Performa4 keep missing the point that the way Siglent works makes operating the scope extremely cumbersome. I will never ever buy an oscilloscope which can't be set to use full memory all time. Same for decoding only what is on screen. And I'm 100% sure that once I show you two the benefits you will fully agree with me (just like your 'customer' initially thought segmented recording wasn't needed). It just takes looking outside the Siglent box.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: edigi on January 17, 2020, 02:53:30 pm
If you want to look at a signal with high frequency components you need an oscilloscope with enough bandwidth. Otherwise the anti-aliasing filter will chop off the higher frequency components and show what is left.

That anti-aliasing filter doesn't have too much room between 350 MHz and 500 MHz so it must be pretty good, right?
So what frequency square signal would you go max. with this setup?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: edigi on January 17, 2020, 03:01:28 pm
It is some times  not at all enough even 1Hz square wave, some times 1GHz BW is not enough for 1Hz square and we need talk what BW need if need measure real fast risetime with some good accuracy

Sure, rise time determines the needed bandwidth but let's try to be a bit more practical here and assume that the user wants to check signals on MCUs, CPLDs/FPGAs so just everyday stuff.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on January 17, 2020, 03:13:31 pm
I think it will be an interesting battle!  Of course you should compare with 5074 since it's the lowest we can get.

If the Siglent isn't hacable then it's going to be MUCH more expensive for equivalent features to a hacked Rigol.

ALL Siglent models are as "upgradeable" as Rigol's. If that wouldn't be the case then we should not compare them with a "hacked Rigol".

Nevertheless, it seems Siglent is pretty confident in its product given the price it chosed to it's starting model 2104X+ in comparison with the 5074.

I say that it will be "interesting times" because all will have plenty of factors to discuss once again in the bang/buck realm. You know pretty well the DS1004Z / 10004X-E war. Now, it will be the 5000 / 2000X+ war...

For Rigol's sake, it better release a good FW in the near future...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 17, 2020, 03:21:48 pm
If you want to look at a signal with high frequency components you need an oscilloscope with enough bandwidth. Otherwise the anti-aliasing filter will chop off the higher frequency components and show what is left.

That anti-aliasing filter doesn't have too much room between 350 MHz and 500 MHz so it must be pretty good, right?
So what frequency square signal would you go max. with this setup?
For a square wave (=average digital signal / clock) it is nice to have the fundamental + 2 harmonics (3x and 5x fundamental frequency) visible in order to asses things like signal levels. Fundamental + 1 harmonic is cutting it close. So a 350MHz oscilloscope should be usable on a 100MHz clock but from 70MHz and onwards you won't be able to make much of the shape. If you don't care much about the shape (for example only the frequency or time relation with another signal) then you can go all the way up to 350MHz.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 17, 2020, 03:26:37 pm
Quote
For Rigol's sake, it better release a good FW in the near future...

Definitely, otherwise I´ll change back to siglent.

Funny thing:

https://www.batronix.com/versand/oszilloskope/Siglent-SDS2104X-plus.html#yoReviews (https://www.batronix.com/versand/oszilloskope/Siglent-SDS2104X-plus.html#yoReviews)

Have a closer look to the display, the picture must be from the 5000 - or it´s magic having 2.5GSa/s on a 2GSa/s scope….
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: edigi on January 17, 2020, 03:33:36 pm
OK, thank you.
One more question: What does the bandwidth upgrade really mean with these scopes (I mean specifically Siglent or Rigol)? Is anything changed in the analogue front end (I mean beyond the anyhow user settable limit(s) like the typical 20 MHz + some higher bandwidth limit) or something else as well (what)?
Or is it only limited only to what amount of zoom is allowed when looking at the signal?
Yet another words, what is gained with the hacking?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 17, 2020, 03:43:34 pm
Definitely, otherwise I´ll change back to siglent.

Changes come sometimes real quick - Set my rigol into eBay to check if the price is interesting for someone…..and it´s gone in an hour.. :o 8)
Siglent, I´m coming... ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on January 17, 2020, 03:58:31 pm
Changes come sometimes real quick - Set my rigol into eBay to check if the price is interesting for someone…..and it´s gone in an hour.. :o 8)
Siglent, I´m coming... ;)

 :scared:  Who will keep the MSO5000 threads ? ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 17, 2020, 04:24:09 pm
I´ll do it as far it can go without having a 5000...

For me, the rigol 5000 is an excellent scope - But 50Ohm, Eres, 10.1" screen and probably lower input noise makes the decision…
For an 2104X plus.
Time will tell whether it´s hackable to 200Mhz or more.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Frex on January 17, 2020, 05:08:11 pm
Hello,

This new scope seems interesting...
Anyway, there is no Bode plot function in the datasheet.
 :-//

Frex
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 17, 2020, 05:38:32 pm
Hi,

See Page 9 (https://www.batronix.com/files/Siglent/Oszilloskope/SDS2000X+/SDS2000X-Plus_Datasheet-EN.pdf)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Frex on January 17, 2020, 06:34:42 pm
Oops!

I haven't seen it, thank you.
Now, it's time to wait for a complete Dave reviews.

Frex
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on January 17, 2020, 07:23:00 pm
OK, thank you.
One more question: What does the bandwidth upgrade really mean with these scopes (I mean specifically Siglent or Rigol)? Is anything changed in the analogue front end (I mean beyond the anyhow user settable limit(s) like the typical 20 MHz + some higher bandwidth limit) or something else as well (what)?
Or is it only limited only to what amount of zoom is allowed when looking at the signal?
Yet another words, what is gained with the hacking?
Sometimes yes, another step in the x#s/div but mostly BW rolloff filter is lifted.
For 2kX+ we will have to wait to see what the fastest timebase setting will be.
For more understanding of how front end frequency is managed see EEVblog #1228 – Do Digital Scopes Have REAL Verniers?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 17, 2020, 08:13:36 pm
Somewhat strange price policy though. The SDS5034X (with "full" package) costs just a bit (~320€ or ~10%) more than the SDS2354X Plus.
I didn't even check all the details, but the higher sample rate (5GSa/s vs. 2GSa/s) alone would justify a higher price difference.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on January 17, 2020, 08:51:15 pm
That's not strange at all. That's precisely to make you choose the SDS5000X.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: edigi on January 17, 2020, 08:52:25 pm
For more understanding of how front end frequency is managed see EEVblog #1228 – Do Digital Scopes Have REAL Verniers?

I've rechecked that video (I'm certain that I've seen it already, so I've skipped occasionally) but that's about front end gain control (with AD8370) not about frequency control. So what front end frequency control does Siglent use?
Btw. I've checked with AD9954 comparator output (this is what I could find to have reasonable fast rise/fall times) and if 5th harmonic fits into the bandwidth that gives indeed meaningful signal shape (like nctnico wrote).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Plasmateur on January 17, 2020, 09:04:48 pm
This scope looks to be the step up level in the trifecta for me.

I have to have one of these. Hopefully I can sell my DS1054Z for a decent price.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on January 17, 2020, 09:58:13 pm
This scope looks to be the step up level in the trifecta for me.

I have to have one of these. Hopefully I can sell my DS1054Z for a decent price.

Given that the DS1054Z is already at the very bottom of the price range (Mariana Trench level) when bought new, there's almost no reason to sell it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 17, 2020, 10:26:20 pm
Yep,

My MSO5074 goes for 899, so I must pay "only" appx 500 additional for the SDS2104X Plus...
God, the model names is killing me.... |O
What does the plus model have in common to the non plus, except the samplerate, to have only the "plus" in it´s name....
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on January 18, 2020, 12:34:20 am
What does the plus model have in common to the non plus, except the samplerate, to have only the "plus" in it´s name....
Honestly not very much.
Plus models offer quite a jump in capability over SDS2kX.

Plus have better sensitivity, bigger and touch display, inbuilt webserver, 50 vs 25 MHz AWG option, 2Mpts FFT, more memory, free decodes for the common protocols and all the new features in the new (like 5kX) UI.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: rf-loop on January 18, 2020, 08:00:01 am
Lets hope Siglent stay calm and continue this selected road.
What is captured need show and decode (except if decode max data amount is reached.) You many times ask why Siglent do not decode full memory. (It do but somehow you don not want accept it)  But I can ask, why many scopes mostly do not display full currently used memory length at runtime... when they start make scopes what can display all what is captured and runtime, wit details.
You and Performa4 keep missing the point that the way Siglent works makes operating the scope extremely cumbersome. I will never ever buy an oscilloscope which can't be set to use full memory all time. Same for decoding only what is on screen. And I'm 100% sure that once I show you two the benefits you will fully agree with me (just like your 'customer' initially thought segmented recording wasn't needed). It just takes looking outside the Siglent box.

Siglent decode always full memory.
Siglent can always set for full memory capture.

Even if you want look 1ns/div tb things. But I do not know any true case when I need capture example 100000000 ns and 99999990 outside of display (perhaps you know why they need hide)... then stop scope and look these outside display parts. Why hell because I can simply look both on the screen and also runtime. You just have two timebases on the screen. Dual timebase mode (zoom) can shut off when need fast wfm/s or if not need as is case in many times. You tell you need full memory lenghth 99.9%... I can tell that I need (perhaps) full max memory length roughly 0.1% exept in cases where I need max samplerate with quite slow signals. You need 200 or 20M lenght nearly all time. How you did your works when scopes have only 500pts or 10k or 100k memory. Even Tektronix 465 can use for decode, and of course full screen... full memory length (Tek scope camera was memory and decode done using table pencil and ruler... and more fun Tek 7054 can use... ) 


Btw, I have looked oscilloscopes, A and B brands, even C brands tens of years totally out from Siglent box, naturally because whole Siglent is just born, even now I'm not boxed (no one can put me in box as long as I'm in good oxygen). Also there is no money what force some relationship.  So I can free say what ever I want or like. Also no one can buy my opinion, I have enough everything here.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Fungus on January 18, 2020, 09:05:16 am
Given that the DS1054Z is already at the very bottom of the price range (Mariana Trench level) when bought new, there's almost no reason to sell it.

a) Not true, there's still Owons and Hanteks below that.
b) Why the hate? The DS1054Z was a revolutionary device for the money and was released long before Siglent had anything comparable in that price range. Dave was so blown away by it that he did a whole series of videos, you can't say that for any Siglent. Even today it's still good value (to non-snobs who just want to see four wiggly lines on a screen with minimal investment - a perfectly valid position to be in).

It's not the bottom of a dark pit, it's the first rung of a ladder.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 18, 2020, 11:37:24 am
I like that the time base accuracy (1ppm initially) is as good as that of the SDS5000X and the channel skew specification is even a bit better (<100ps vs. <150ps). I like a lot that they even specified the trigger jitter for a scope of this price range and the value for CH1..CH4 is actually a magnitude better (<10ps vs. <100ps) than that from the SDS5000X. In both cases I assume that the (older) SDS5000X is just a bit less optimistic, but still.
It's also good to see that the signal generator is internal now (even though it's more of a toy with 3V amplitude at 16kPts for arbitrary signals). In sum, it really looks like a nice scope and not much of a step down from the SDS5000X other than the sample rate, maximum bandwidth and probe interface (but I really like that they kept the probe detection).

BTW: in the table "Models and Key Specifications", the datasheet indicates that only the SDS2354X can be upgraded to 500MHz and doesn't mention bandwidth upgrades for the lower models. Yet later under "Optional Accessories" in lists bandwidth upgrades options for all models.
Quote
SDSQOOOXP-4BW02 - 100 MHZ to 200 MHZ bandwidth upgrade (4-ch model) (software
SDSZOOOXP-4BW03 - 200 MHZ to 350 MHZ bandwidth upgrade (4-ch model) (software)
SDSZOOOXP-4BW05 - 350 MHZ to 500 MHZ bandwidth upgrade (4-ch model) (software)
SDSZOOOXP-ZBW03 - 100 MHZ to 350 MHZ bandwidth upgrade (2-ch model) (software)
So letting aside that the 2 channel model seems to be limited to 200MHz: is it sure that all 4 channel models can be upgraded to 500MHz?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 18, 2020, 12:02:26 pm
Quote
I like that the time base accuracy (1ppm initially)

In comparison rigol 5000 got 10ppm in general, where siglent claims 3.5ppm for 10years aging...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Emo on January 18, 2020, 12:46:36 pm
@0xdeadbeef

CH1..CH4 is actually a magnitude better (<10ps vs. <100ps) than that from the SDS5000X. In both cases I assume that the (older) SDS5000X is just a bit less optimistic, but still.

Not sure if you copied the proper values.
Reading the SDS5000 specs it says (on the 2020-01 sheet) in the trigger system paragraph;
<9ps RMS (typical) for ≥300MHz sine and ≥6 divisions peak to peak amplitude for vertical gain settings from 2.5mV/ div to 10V/div.
<5ps RMS (typical) for ≥500MHz sine and ≥6 divisions peak to peak amplitude for vertical gain settings from 2.5mV/ div to 10V/div.

Eric
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on January 18, 2020, 12:49:51 pm
Given that the DS1054Z is already at the very bottom of the price range (Mariana Trench level) when bought new, there's almost no reason to sell it.

a) Not true, there's still Owons and Hanteks below that.
b) Why the hate? The DS1054Z was a revolutionary device for the money and was released long before Siglent had anything comparable in that price range. Dave was so blown away by it that he did a whole series of videos, you can't say that for any Siglent. Even today it's still good value (to non-snobs who just want to see four wiggly lines on a screen with minimal investment - a perfectly valid position to be in).

It's not the bottom of a dark pit, it's the first rung of a ladder.

Eh, hate? Where do you get that from! No hate here, I own one myself! But it really doesn't have the kind of resale value you need to notably offset the cost of any of these Siglent scopes. S, it's better to keep it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 18, 2020, 01:28:08 pm
I like that the time base accuracy (1ppm initially) is as good as that of the SDS5000X and the channel skew specification is even a bit better (<100ps vs. <150ps). I like a lot that they even specified the trigger jitter for a scope of this price range and the value for CH1..CH4 is actually a magnitude better (<10ps vs. <100ps) than that from the SDS5000X. In both cases I assume that the (older) SDS5000X is just a bit less optimistic, but still.
It's also good to see that the signal generator is internal now (even though it's more of a toy with 3V amplitude at 16kPts for arbitrary signals). In sum, it really looks like a nice scope and not much of a step down from the SDS5000X other than the sample rate, maximum bandwidth and probe interface (but I really like that they kept the probe detection).

BTW: in the table "Models and Key Specifications", the datasheet indicates that only the SDS2354X can be upgraded to 500MHz and doesn't mention bandwidth upgrades for the lower models. Yet later under "Optional Accessories" in lists bandwidth upgrades options for all models.
Quote
SDSQOOOXP-4BW02 - 100 MHZ to 200 MHZ bandwidth upgrade (4-ch model) (software
SDSZOOOXP-4BW03 - 200 MHZ to 350 MHZ bandwidth upgrade (4-ch model) (software)
SDSZOOOXP-4BW05 - 350 MHZ to 500 MHZ bandwidth upgrade (4-ch model) (software)
SDSZOOOXP-ZBW03 - 100 MHZ to 350 MHZ bandwidth upgrade (2-ch model) (software)
So letting aside that the 2 channel model seems to be limited to 200MHz: is it sure that all 4 channel models can be upgraded to 500MHz?

imho internal generator is good option if remember that also SDS2000XPlus have  quite good SFRA. Without external generator it can do SFRA from 10Hz to 50MHz. And this BodePlotII  IS really good, like reference to others (when look this this class of equipments).

How you look 2 channel model is limnited to 200MHz when there is 2 channel upgrade to 350MHz listed.

But then with 500MHz upgrade. It need tightly understand and take to account what is told in data sheet.
First up to 350MHz versions time scale is 1000s - 1ns/div and with 500MHz upgrade 500ps/div - 1000s/div
But then it is also clearly stated: In interleaving mode bandwidth is 500MHz, risetime is 0.8ns; in non-interleaving mode bandwidth is 350MHz, risetime is 1ns 
Interleaving mode=for one ADC chip only 1 channel is active (2GSa/s).

My opinion why 500MHz risetime is not 0.7ns is that BW fresponse shape also change. (different filtering? As we well know, scopes what have "max flat - brick wall" type response it also, of course, produce lower risetime vs gaussian fresp..)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on January 18, 2020, 02:37:05 pm
Given that the DS1054Z is already at the very bottom of the price range (Mariana Trench level) when bought new, there's almost no reason to sell it.

a) Not true, there's still Owons and Hanteks below that.
b) Why the hate? The DS1054Z was a revolutionary device for the money and was released long before Siglent had anything comparable in that price range. Dave was so blown away by it that he did a whole series of videos, you can't say that for any Siglent. Even today it's still good value (to non-snobs who just want to see four wiggly lines on a screen with minimal investment - a perfectly valid position to be in).

It's not the bottom of a dark pit, it's the first rung of a ladder.

Eh, hate? Where do you get that from! No hate here, I own one myself! But it really doesn't have the kind of resale value you need to notably offset the cost of any of these Siglent scopes. S, it's better to keep it.
Actually the Rigol DS1054Z has a much better resell value than any siglent scope.  It is almost on any hobbyist / maker bench I see on youtube, I cannot say the same about siglent.  There is a level where price matters more than features, and DS1054Z is the winner at that level.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on January 18, 2020, 03:04:31 pm
Actually the Rigol DS1054Z has a much better resell value than any siglent scope.  It is almost on any hobbyist / maker bench I see on youtube, I cannot say the same about siglent.  There is a level where price matters more than features, and DS1054Z is the winner at that level.
You can buy it new for about €380 (net. €315) through Batronix, including shipping within Europe. You'll get nowhere near that money when selling used. €200, maybe?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 18, 2020, 03:12:48 pm
On eBay germany, the last was sold by 322€ in used condition, lowest selling price in the last months was 279€ .

(Using the filter "selled items", you can also choose to search only in your country our worldwide)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 18, 2020, 03:41:13 pm
What I don´t really get are the prices for the bandwith-updates…

Difference between the 4-channel 100Mhz siglent and the 200Mhz version is 700€.
But upgrading from 100 to 200Mhz will cost  1300€  :o
And what about this 500Mhz thing..
Batronix claims on their site: "Bandwidth upgrade from 350 MHz to 500 MHz for the SDS2354X Plus. For 2 channels only."
Aha, it´s an upgrade for the 4-channel version - But for 2 channels only ?!
A little bit confusing..
Or the true meaning is, you can upgrade your 2-channel 100Mhz Siglent to 350Mhz (costs 929€) and then from the 350Mhz to 500.. :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Fungus on January 18, 2020, 04:38:51 pm
Difference between the 4-channel 100Mhz siglent and the 200Mhz version is 700€.
But upgrading from 100 to 200Mhz will cost  1300€  :o

It's the same logic as a plea-bargain.

They know many people won't ever upgrade so they threaten them with much higher prices if they don't buy now.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on January 18, 2020, 05:49:19 pm
Actually the Rigol DS1054Z has a much better resell value than any siglent scope.  It is almost on any hobbyist / maker bench I see on youtube, I cannot say the same about siglent.  There is a level where price matters more than features, and DS1054Z is the winner at that level.
You can buy it new for about €380 (net. €315) through Batronix, including shipping within Europe. You'll get nowhere near that money when selling used. €200, maybe?
I sold 2 in the past for around $300, lightly used.  If you put them in auction mode, a significant number of buyers will bid and pay around $300.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 18, 2020, 07:35:28 pm
@0xdeadbeef

CH1..CH4 is actually a magnitude better (<10ps vs. <100ps) than that from the SDS5000X. In both cases I assume that the (older) SDS5000X is just a bit less optimistic, but still.

Not sure if you copied the proper values.
Reading the SDS5000 specs it says (on the 2020-01 sheet) in the trigger system paragraph;
<9ps RMS (typical) for ≥300MHz sine and ≥6 divisions peak to peak amplitude for vertical gain settings from 2.5mV/ div to 10V/div.
<5ps RMS (typical) for ≥500MHz sine and ≥6 divisions peak to peak amplitude for vertical gain settings from 2.5mV/ div to 10V/div.

Eric

Well, I guess they updated that part of the datasheet at some point. The datasheet I had at hand is rather old (January 2019) and I was too lazy to download a new one. And in this datasheet, the "Jitter <100 ps (CH1 ~ CH4)" statement is the only one in the "Trigger System" table. Anywhere, it was suspected from the start that these values were a bit pessimistic.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
Post by: nctnico on January 18, 2020, 09:30:25 pm
Why hell because I can simply look both on the screen and also runtime. You just have two timebases on the screen. Dual timebase mode (zoom)
Yeah the good old zoom mode crutch (again) which eats away 30% or more of the screen real estate. Very nice if you have 3 or 4 signals, bus decoding and maybe some digital signals and / or measurements on screen. Crammed into the zoom screen that becomes an unreadable mess anyway. Try do some mixed (digital / analog) circuit debugging and you'll see how this gets cumbersome quickly.
Quote
How you did your works when scopes have only 500pts or 10k or 100k memory.
Much slower. I can tell you that because it needed re-capture after recapture while coming up with different ways to trigger on a specific event. There is a reason why oscilloscopes have more and more memory nowadays: to work faster. It makes no sense to not be able to use that all the time without needing to give up 30% of the screen just to coerce the oscilloscope to use more memory.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on January 18, 2020, 10:16:24 pm
Difference between the 4-channel 100Mhz siglent and the 200Mhz version is 700€.

Never mind. People will only be buying the 100MHz model. The rest of the prices are irrelevant.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 18, 2020, 11:06:05 pm
 ;D

But there is the thing about the 500Mhz bandwith upgrade  and only for 2 channel….what does it means.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on January 18, 2020, 11:09:12 pm
;D

But there is the thing about the 500Mhz bandwith upgrade  and only for 2 channel….what does it means.

From what I read, it means that you can only have 500MHz in 2 channels. You can't have a 4-channel 500MHz scope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 18, 2020, 11:29:11 pm
So the 500Mhz are uninteresting for me, 350Mhz are more than enough for the things I do at home.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 19, 2020, 02:00:31 am
In a nutshell, four channels make interleaving impossible, so the sample rate drops to 1GSa/s. And with that, 500MHz bandwidth would be somewhat pointless for anything but perfect sines.
With only two channels, interleaving increases the sample rate to 2GSa/s which is OKish for 500MHz.

Side note: didn't notice at first, but the SDS2000X Plus also lacks the VGA output and the 10MHz in/out. No showstoppers from my point of view, but worth noting.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 19, 2020, 03:34:19 am
;D

But there is the thing about the 500Mhz bandwith upgrade  and only for 2 channel….what does it means.

Why it is so amazing difficult to understand... it is also told in datasheet. Also in  Reply #121 it is said.

System is build so that in 4 channel models there is 2 ADC chips. One for CH 1 and 2 and one for CH 3 and 4.
ADC works interleaved mode when it handle only one channel it can 2GSa/s.
Now if one have 500MHz upgrade it opens 500MHz BW when ADCs are working interleaved mode. (2GSs/s)
It reduce BW back to 350MHz when scope goes to non-interleaved mode (1Gsa/s). It need also note that ADC work always full speed 2G interleaved or 1G non-interleaved independent of if decimated samplerate is slower.
If one ADC is in non-interleaved mode then also other is forced to non-interleaved mode.

Why it is so. Simple. 1GSa/s is not enough for 500MHz BW. Theoretically 500MHz BW minus very little  is possible for unknown signals but only if we have theoretically ideal 500MHz lp brick wall filter and nearly infinite amount of samples for do true Sin(x)/x interpolation... just as example HPs Chris Rehorn explain long time ago.

So 500MHz BW (after upgrade) is only for max 2 channels simultaneously on and so that mode is interleaved, so CH1 or 2  and/or CH3 or 4 and upgraded scope have 500MHz BW other ways 350MHz. When ADCs goes to non-interleaved mode BW is then 350MHz. So there is autoswitch what change BW filter.

Interleaving /non-interleaving explained in datasheet page 9
Upgrade explained in page 9 and explanation page 10 (note 1. small font)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 19, 2020, 03:36:40 am
In a nutshell, four channels make interleaving impossible, so the sample rate drops to 1GSa/s. And with that, 500MHz bandwidth would be somewhat pointless for anything but perfect sines.
With only two channels, interleaving increases the sample rate to 2GSa/s which is OKish for 500MHz.

Side note: didn't notice at first, but the SDS2000X Plus also lacks the VGA output and the 10MHz in/out. No showstoppers from my point of view, but worth noting.

It is not pointless - there is no such situation, BW (also scopes what are upgraded with 500MHz option) is 350MHz  in non-interleaving mode for avoid Nyq-Shan violations. It is told in datasheet.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on January 19, 2020, 09:14:48 am
In a nutshell, four channels make interleaving impossible, so the sample rate drops to 1GSa/s. And with that, 500MHz bandwidth would be somewhat pointless for anything but perfect sines.
With only two channels, interleaving increases the sample rate to 2GSa/s which is OKish for 500MHz.

Side note: didn't notice at first, but the SDS2000X Plus also lacks the VGA output and the 10MHz in/out. No showstoppers from my point of view, but worth noting.

It is not pointless - there is no such situation, BW (also scopes what are upgraded with 500MHz option) is 350MHz  in non-interleaving mode for avoid Nyq-Shan violations. It is told in datasheet.

It's perfectly fine, really. You get a 500MHz scope if you use only two channels at the same time (which includes trigger, I guess) and 350MHz with all 4. I could get plenty of use out of that configuration.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 19, 2020, 10:57:27 am
In a nutshell, four channels make interleaving impossible, so the sample rate drops to 1GSa/s. And with that, 500MHz bandwidth would be somewhat pointless for anything but perfect sines.
With only two channels, interleaving increases the sample rate to 2GSa/s which is OKish for 500MHz.

It is not pointless - there is no such situation, BW (also scopes what are upgraded with 500MHz option) is 350MHz  in non-interleaving mode for avoid Nyq-Shan violations. It is told in datasheet.
I feel you objected to something I didn't say. The "would be" indicates a type 2 conditional which is used to refer to a situation that is unreal.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 19, 2020, 12:30:37 pm


I feel you objected to something I didn't say. The "would be" indicates a type 2 conditional which is used to refer to a situation that is unreal.

Ok. Yes it looks like...  But now it is clear (also to me  ;) )
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 19, 2020, 10:49:18 pm
I won´t talk dirty about rigol, never ever - I´ve been "grown up" ( as far as a man in it´s 40s can grow up) with them what private usage concerns.
But have a look at the frontpanel of the siglent…
Dedicated trigger mode buttons...my eyes are going wet... ;)
The cooperation with lecroy is a clear benefit for siglent´s own products.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 19, 2020, 11:11:26 pm
Still missing the 'force trigger' button though.  >:D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 19, 2020, 11:20:39 pm
 ;D You again… ;)

Force I didn´t need in real.
Pain in the arse was the rigol front - I alway misunderstood the "Auto" button for the triggermode... :palm:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: maginnovision on January 20, 2020, 12:33:44 am
I'd probably miss force trigger but it wouldn't kill me.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 20, 2020, 12:37:28 am
Force I didn´t need in real.
It comes in quite handy to check signals with the triggering in normal mode. I use it regulary but like maginnovision it is something I could do without.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on January 20, 2020, 10:08:05 am
Hello,

I have expressed many times my interest for the new SDS2000X Plus MSO....but I don't know what to do today.
I had a very bad experience few weeks ago with Siglent. I bought a SVA1015X which came with a very old calibration certificate.
Siglent did not give any sign of life after having informed me and Batronix that they were going to send me a recent device before the end of the year (2019).
They don't have a working cal center in Germany yet so they had to send me a new device.
And Im still waiting so Batronix proceed to a refund....

Im very disapointed  :--
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Serg65536 on January 20, 2020, 11:24:37 am
The hardware seems to be a simplification from the older sds5000x series:
https://int.siglent.com/products-document/sds5000x/ (https://int.siglent.com/products-document/sds5000x/)
https://int.siglent.com/products-document/sds2000xp/ (https://int.siglent.com/products-document/sds2000xp/)

The frame rate and measurement speed of the SDS5000X series are simply terrible (~5000 frames/s with low memory depth) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxu19IFHMgc&feature=emb_title (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxu19IFHMgc&feature=emb_title)


At the level of hantek scopes :) :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 20, 2020, 11:34:42 am
Hi,
I've ordered a 2104 now, should arrive in the next days.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on January 20, 2020, 01:09:21 pm
Are you selling your MSO5074 ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 20, 2020, 09:06:47 pm
Hi,

Yes, I´ve sold it.
Placed it in eBay and it was gone in the first hour….
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 20, 2020, 10:50:02 pm
The SDS plus should arrive tomorrow, on evening.
I´m exiting about the things  it could do better/worse than my former owned rigol…

Quote
The frame rate and measurement speed of the SDS5000X series are simply terrible (~5000 frames/s with low memory depth)

Will check this.

By the way, "terrible" in comparison to what ?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on January 20, 2020, 10:58:16 pm
The SDS plus should arrive tomorrow, on evening.
I´m exiting about the things  it could do better/worse than my former owned rigol…

Quote
The frame rate and measurement speed of the SDS5000X series are simply terrible (~5000 frames/s with low memory depth)

Will check this.

By the way, "terrible" in comparison to what ?
Terrible in that opinions are based on a year old video and 2 SDS5kX FW updates have been released since Daves video.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 21, 2020, 01:00:05 am
It was discussed in some detail in the SDS5000X thread how the specified waveforms per second numbers are only true for point mode and drop drastically with linear or sinc interpolation.
Not a showstoppper for me but worth noticing, especially when comparing to the current Rigol scopes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 21, 2020, 07:02:34 pm
Tadaaa… ;)

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 21, 2020, 08:29:47 pm
So, after a little bit acclimatization ( it´s cold outside), I coudn´t resist any longer and turned it on.
Pictures in the evening are a bad idea, so I´ll do it in the next days.
Here some impressions:
Nice building quality although it´s lightweight and thin, stable standing.
Turned it on....boot time appx 43s.
Clear menu structures, fast response.
Display ist clear and bright ( better than rigol 5000 even after it´s modification), touchresponse is fast ( better than rigol).
Lag between swiping and line movement is nicely short ( better than rigol).
First a little surprise: The AWG is working, wtf ?!
Ah, all options are in trial mode... ;D
Fan noise is acceptable quiet, quieter than...rigol.  ;)
The 2 GSa/s remains when you choose ch1+ch3 or ch2+ch4, also the memdepth.
Memdepth : It´s manual selectable...
More things in the next days, maybe I take it to work to measure the updaterate.

First conclusion after a few minutes of playing with it:
I won´t blame my former rigol mso5, but there are some things siglent had done it better.
Display : bigger, brighter, clearer
Touchpanel : Response is remarkable faster, more exactly.
Menus: Sorry, no comparision(siglent is better).
Handling in general is better, performance in general seems ( must test it longer) a little bit faster.
Actually, I got only positive thoughts on it.
To be continued..


Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Pinkus on January 21, 2020, 08:52:58 pm
So the column "remaining times" at the option screen reflects the remaining usage of this function?
Example: if you never use the CAN decoder, even if you switched the scope on for 100x, this functions still got 30 usages left?
(I hope Siglent will count only down again after a switch-off of the scope).
If it is like this, it is a fair solution - it would give you at least 30 days of option usage and if you do not need the options frequently (e.g. AWG) they will be available even in a year.
(I am not familiar with Siglent, it might be the case with other of their scopes too and thus kind of obvious for some people, though it is not for me)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 21, 2020, 08:57:31 pm
Quote
Example: if you never use the CAN decoder, even if you switched the scope on for 100x, this functions still got 30 usages left?

It seems so - I´ve only used the AWG and activated the power analysis for looking what´s inside the menus.
And both of them have now "29" left.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on January 21, 2020, 09:38:50 pm
Hm. You know, just going by the Siglent EU prices on their website, a SDS2354X PLUS with Logic Probe, Wavegen and CANFD decoder license comes in at 3549€ net.

For about the same money (less, actually) I can currently buy a RTB2004 bundle with (roughly) the same specs. The RTB2004 has only 300MHz bandwidth, but an actual 10bit ADC with 2.5 GSa/s (interleaved) and a higher resolution screen. Also, no bandwidth upgrade option.

AAAargh!

PS: The RTB2004 also has a lot less memory and I think "only" 50000 wfms/s update rate.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on January 21, 2020, 09:41:20 pm
Quote
Example: if you never use the CAN decoder, even if you switched the scope on for 100x, this functions still got 30 usages left?

It seems so - I´ve only used the AWG and activated the power analysis for looking what´s inside the menus.
And both of them have now "29" left.
Yes this is the options trial time scheme Siglent use in all of their scopes. 1 use = 1 trial time.
Some of their other equipment use a different scheme.......options are active and free to use for x# of ON hours.

Careful management of trial option usages can keep options available for when you need them for a good long while.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on January 21, 2020, 09:47:26 pm
@MartinM
FYI, you can capture any displayed page straight to a USB using the blue Print button and have a tiny .png file.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 21, 2020, 10:24:04 pm
Hi tautech,

Thanks and this is what I know from rigols "quick button" - Press it, then you have a screenshot.
Or you can configure the button for your own needs.

@thinkfat:

Quote
The RTB2004 has only 300MHz bandwidth, but an actual 10bit ADC with 2.5 GSa/s (interleaved) and a higher resolution screen.

It´s their biggest advantage in comparision to others - a 10bit ADC and the unbeatable hires screen.
But that´s all in my opinion.
If you need this, you should buy it.
Our (at work) last new scopes were from lecroy, a waverunner 8bit scope and a hdo6034 real 12 bit scope, bought together with 40% off for "only" 26000€.
Still I couldn´t detect any advantage of the 12bit against the 8bit at our daily works.
If your works needs to have higher resolution, then go for more than 8bit.

Quote
a SDS2354X PLUS with Logic Probe, Wavegen and CANFD decoder license comes in at 3549€ net.

For me, I don´t need logic probes/option for LA, CAN also and a AWG, I like to use an extended one.
As I said it on the rigol threads, I won´t spend that money for a chinese brand scope.
Especially when the basic model got it all already ( and the rest must be unlock via software upgrades) - Then you know it´s real price what the hardware concerns.
Therefore, I compare always the basic models.




Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Serg65536 on January 22, 2020, 06:33:59 am
Therefore, I compare always the basic models.

Please at least make the table “Horizontal Frequency VS Update Time” in the fastest display mode (or fastest usable display mode).
Is the SPO function adequate?
Is it convenient (and fast) to use the zoom mode?
Is the oscilloscope fast enough when viewing a waveform with a maximum memory depth?

By the way, is anyone going to do a full review?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 22, 2020, 09:57:59 am
Memdepth : It´s manual selectable...
That sounds very promising. Does it always stay that way?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 22, 2020, 01:51:04 pm
Memdepth : It´s manual selectable...
That sounds very promising. Does it always stay that way?

AFAIK this is misunderstanding or careless expression.  (nice to see you also ask this question even when you know answer already)

There can always manually set limit of maximum capture memory length what oscilloscope can not exceed.  As it is in all X/X-E scopes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 22, 2020, 01:55:09 pm
Memdepth : It´s manual selectable...
That sounds very promising. Does it always stay that way?
AFAIK this is misunderstanding or careless expression.  (nice to see you also ask this question even when you know answer already)
I don't know the answer and that is why I ask the question.  To me it is utterly and totally unclear on whether this oscilloscope can be set to have a fixed memory depth or not (without needing to resort to workaround by using zoom mode c.q. even if that results in data being outside of the display). The original incarnation of this oscilloscope would revert back to automatic memory depth in many cases which was very annoying. In later incarnations the memory depth seems to be always automatic according to your information. Waiting for Martin to (finally) get a clear answer on this topic....
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 22, 2020, 07:41:09 pm
The maximum (!) memory is selectable also for the SDS5000X, but the manual is a bit vague if you actual force the scope in using the maximum memory:

Quote
Memory Depth: The maximum memory depth that can be supported.
According to the formula "acquisition time = sample points x sample interval",
setting a larger memory depth can achieve a higher sample rate for a given
timebase, but more samples require more processing time, degrading the
waveform update rate. With 250 Mpts memory depth, SDS5000X can still run
at full sample rate (5 GSa/s) even when set to the 5 ms/div timebase.

Note: The memory depth here is the upper limit of the memory space allocated
by the oscilloscope. The actual sample points is related to the current timebase
and may be less than memory depth. The actual sample points information can
be obtained in the timebase descriptor box.

For me this sounds a bit like the scope doesn't consider the maximum memory to capture data outside the screen but more like would only use this value to use a higher number of samples for what is shown on the screen. But I may be wrong.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 22, 2020, 08:00:10 pm
The maximum (!) memory is selectable also for the SDS5000X, but the manual is a bit vague if you actual force the scope in using the maximum memory:

Quote
Memory Depth: The maximum memory depth that can be supported.
According to the formula "acquisition time = sample points x sample interval",
setting a larger memory depth can achieve a higher sample rate for a given
timebase, but more samples require more processing time, degrading the
waveform update rate. With 250 Mpts memory depth, SDS5000X can still run
at full sample rate (5 GSa/s) even when set to the 5 ms/div timebase.

Note: The memory depth here is the upper limit of the memory space allocated
by the oscilloscope. The actual sample points is related to the current timebase
and may be less than memory depth. The actual sample points information can
be obtained in the timebase descriptor box.

For me this sounds a bit like the scope doesn't consider the maximum memory to capture data outside the screen but more like would only use this value to use a higher number of samples for what is shown on the screen. But I may be wrong.
The way I read it, it means that it will only use the amount of memory which is (just) enough to fill the screen. But it would be nice if someone can actually test it.

The reason I'm so interested is that I have a customer who might need an oscilloscope later this year and it would be nice to have some other choice besides the R&S RTB2004. This customer already has some Siglent gear due to me suggesting it. But -again- limiting memory depth to the screen would disqualify Siglent scopes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 22, 2020, 08:51:38 pm
Hi,

Quote
Note: The memory depth here is the upper limit of the memory space allocated
by the oscilloscope. The actual sample points is related to the current timebase
and may be less than memory depth. The actual sample points information can
be obtained in the timebase descriptor box.

For me it´s a normal behaviour, other scopes are doing it too.
 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 22, 2020, 09:05:48 pm
Pictures..

1)At 10ms/div. you still got the 200mpts memory. 2) 1Mhz signal at 10ms/div. stopped and 3) "zooming" into it. 4) At 500ns/div., 10kpts Memory, 5) At 5ns/div. 100pts .

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 22, 2020, 09:08:16 pm
Hi,

Quote
Note: The memory depth here is the upper limit of the memory space allocated
by the oscilloscope. The actual sample points is related to the current timebase
and may be less than memory depth. The actual sample points information can
be obtained in the timebase descriptor box.

For me it´s a normal behaviour, other scopes are doing it too.
No. Keysight (the general purpose scopes) for example will always use the maximum amount of memory. On other oscilloscopes you can either set a specific amount of memory OR have the oscilloscope manage it automatically to maximise the number of waveforms/s. I've used over a dozen of different DSOs over the years and Siglent really is an exception if they don't allow to force a fixed memory depth.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on January 22, 2020, 09:11:23 pm
Hi,

Quote
Note: The memory depth here is the upper limit of the memory space allocated
by the oscilloscope. The actual sample points is related to the current timebase
and may be less than memory depth. The actual sample points information can
be obtained in the timebase descriptor box.

For me it´s a normal behaviour, other scopes are doing it too.
No. Keysight for example will always use the maximum amount of memory. On other oscilloscopes you can either set a specific amount of memory OR have the oscilloscope manage it automatically to maximise the number of waveforms/s. I've used over a dozen of different DSOs over the years and Siglent really is an exception if they don't allow to force a memory depth.

Yeah, and that's really a pity :-( It means there's nothing stored pre-trigger and if I want to look "back" to see what happened just right outside of the screen, I won't be able to.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 22, 2020, 09:19:33 pm
Quote
No. Keysight (the general purpose scopes) for example will always use the maximum amount of memory.

Maybe i got it in a wrong memory, but I saw it on lecroy and rigol scopes too.
First I can check tomorrow on work, the second was gone…

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 22, 2020, 09:48:13 pm
Quote
No. Keysight (the general purpose scopes) for example will always use the maximum amount of memory.

Maybe i got it in a wrong memory, but I saw it on lecroy and rigol scopes too.
First I can check tomorrow on work, the second was gone…
My Lecroy Wavepro 7k seems to have the same limitation where it won't acquire outside the screen (I hadn't checked that so I'm unpleasantly surprised; being able to use all the memory is a common feature to me). Given the relationship between Lecroy and Siglent this isn't a surprise but Lecroy is also an oddball because they don't have peak-detect.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 22, 2020, 10:03:01 pm
We got Waverunner 9000 and HDO6000 here, as they were our last bought scopes.
Further a Wavesurfer 3000, which is clearly a siglent scope.
Apart from them some older models made by Iwatsu.
Nevertheless, if you got (like this siglent does) 200mpts Memory at 10ms timebase and 2GSa/s, do you expect the same amount on a timebase at nanosecond-range ?
Not ironically meant, actually I don´t know it really.
For me it seems "normal" that memdepth will reduce the shorter the timebase is.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: maginnovision on January 22, 2020, 10:27:04 pm
On the RTB you can say 10(20)M memory and even at 1ns timebase it'll capture that amount of memory at 2.5gs/s. So you can single capture then pull the timebase out and see more data.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 23, 2020, 05:23:57 am
Memdepth : It´s manual selectable...
That sounds very promising. Does it always stay that way?
AFAIK this is misunderstanding or careless expression.  (nice to see you also ask this question even when you know answer already)
I don't know the answer and that is why I ask the question.  To me it is utterly and totally unclear on whether this oscilloscope can be set to have a fixed memory depth or not (without needing to resort to workaround by using zoom mode c.q. even if that results in data being outside of the display). The original incarnation of this oscilloscope would revert back to automatic memory depth in many cases which was very annoying. In later incarnations the memory depth seems to be always automatic according to your information. Waiting for Martin to (finally) get a clear answer on this topic....

I think perhaps your memory is too short.
Here Performa01 answer your own question November 2019...in this same thread.

Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2019, 01:51:21 am »

Or perhaps you think this can just change suddenly as some random small FW fix... No.

Also this whole question have handled many other times and in every corner you rise up this same question just for advertise this question.
Also one adverse effect IF user can force max memory for fast timebases is that he loose partially or whole wfm history buffer aka always background working slow segmented memory acquisition or dramatically change it, but of course this is not reason because when user can select something he is also responsible about consequences. Most of scopes keep only last  capture data and DPO brightness information in display memory is only what are left from previous acquisitions. Siglent works very different. With pros and cons.

What I hope is that Siglent change TFT for 4:3 or even turn it 90 degree and develop this hardware based zoom window even more better with more vertical room for display. Also need deveop perhaps bit more sophisticated zoom window positioning system and finally so that times are related tightly to trigger position and wash and clean brains from center of (main) display thinking. Trigger position need be always time zero. As we know in Siglent trigger can today select for fixed position or  (usual, default) fixed offset  (fixed offset is from center what is imho also partially wrong. It must be fixed offset from user selected trigger position what is always as time zero. But this is for  other discussion)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 23, 2020, 07:14:21 am
Or perhaps you think this can just change suddenly as some random small FW fix... No.
You never know as Siglent keeps adding new features to firmware. As you can see from the replies from other forum members the way Siglent works is different compared to what is standard amongst oscilloscope manufacturers. And worse: it is causing loss of sales opportunities.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on January 23, 2020, 08:44:46 am
On the RTB you can say 10(20)M memory and even at 1ns timebase it'll capture that amount of memory at 2.5gs/s. So you can single capture then pull the timebase out and see more data.

It's the same even on the lowly Rigol DS1054Z. If I set the memory depth to 24Mpts, then even at 5ns/div the full 24Mpts are captured. After stopping the sweep, I can zoom out up to 2ms/div and have a look what happened long before the trigger event. I can also engage the second timebase and zoom back in and have the full details sampled at 1GSa/s available for inspection. This is one of the true merits of deep memory scopes and I cannot understand why Siglent would choose a different approach.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 23, 2020, 08:24:04 pm
For me it seems "normal" that memdepth will reduce the shorter the timebase is.

And now I know why... ;)

Today at work, I grab some of our scopes ( all from lecroy), turning them on and having a look.
All lecroy models, 20yrs old waverunner, our new flagships waverunner 9054 ( 20GSa/s), hdo 6034 (12bit), a wavesurfer 432 ( from iwatsu 2005), a wavesurfer 3024 (from 2018)……
They all got one thing in common:
Same behaviour as the siglent scope….memdepth will decrease when the timebase becoming shorter.
Even by our newest scopes, the expensive waverunner and hdo.
So I couldn´t believe that this would be a failure or a bug in general over the years and models from lecroy.

Btw., the only scope in our house that "keeps" the full memdepth at any timebase is the rigol ds1054z... 8)

Apart from that, how realistic are the chance, that this behaviour could be "fixed" via firmware ?



Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: maginnovision on January 23, 2020, 08:27:46 pm
There is virtually no chance this couldn't be changed if they wanted to change it. How much work that'd be I have no idea. I believe the micsig scopes also retain memory depth when explicitly set.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: supperman on January 23, 2020, 09:07:57 pm
My Tektronix MDO3k seems to capture the full memory depth that you set regardless of time-base. I guess that is the point to setting the memory in the first place.. since that setting would serve no purpose if it was time-base dependent.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 23, 2020, 09:19:03 pm
Before the asian low cost scope came up, I´ve done measurings with lecroy models only, so I don´t care about the memdepth "problem" of the siglent.
But....
Having 200mpts memory is somekind of worthless, when you can use it very limited.
You only got it in ms-ranges….
The selectable maximum memdepth is only vaild for slower timebases - above it´s functionless….
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: supperman on January 23, 2020, 10:08:13 pm
Before the asian low cost scope came up, I´ve done measurings with lecroy models only, so I don´t care about the memdepth "problem" of the siglent.
But....
Having 200mpts memory is somekind of worthless, when you can use it very limited.
You only got it in ms-ranges….
The selectable maximum memdepth is only vaild for slower timebases - above it´s functionless….

Why? I'm not suggesting it is a good thing.. but if you want to record all that data why not zoom out, capture and zoom back in. As long as you are capturing at 2 Gs there is no loss of fidelity in the Y domain. It may be a UI decision.

Siglent has segmented memory too.. Are we sure that people are using the memory options correctly??? I would think there is a lot that can be configured.. perhaps a "frame" of segmented memory is limited to the zoom level.. and the # of frames depends on your overall memory depth setting.. etc.. This thing can "save" hundreds of triggered frames.. for later review, right?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 23, 2020, 10:17:57 pm
This is the point where I get a little bit confused today.
Obviously lecroy, a "A-Brand", does the memory thing handle like siglent ( and for what they´re "blamed") for decades.
I did a capture of a 1Mhz sine in ms-range and zoomed in with no problems because 200mpts memory was active.
But in reverse this wouldn´t go on the siglent because of the memory decreasing.
Is this a really problem....
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 23, 2020, 10:25:12 pm
Before the asian low cost scope came up, I´ve done measurings with lecroy models only, so I don´t care about the memdepth "problem" of the siglent.
But....
Having 200mpts memory is somekind of worthless, when you can use it very limited.
You only got it in ms-ranges….
The selectable maximum memdepth is only vaild for slower timebases - above it´s functionless….
Why? I'm not suggesting it is a good thing.. but if you want to record all that data why not zoom out, capture and zoom back in.
That is way too tedious. Just one example: often I'm triggering on a signal detail in order to tweak it until it is right. Every now and then I want to zoom out to check whether the rest of the timing is still OK. Your method would mean to zoom in/out every time. That means twisting the time/div knob hundreds of times. Way too slow and way too much things to deal with. With >4 signals, decoding,  measurements, etc zoom mode eats away way too much of the screen. And it is not like the Siglents are really cheap compared to the competition which does memory management in a normal way.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 23, 2020, 10:33:38 pm
It was stated (and proofed) that rigol uses the full memory at any time, R&S probably too, Tek probably also.
Keysight/Agilent/HP I don´t know.
But Lecroy do it the same way like siglent….Lecroy, a brand named in a row with Tek and Keysight and of course R&S.
This makes me confusing…



Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on January 23, 2020, 10:36:34 pm
This is the point where I get a little bit confused today.
Obviously lecroy, a "A-Brand", does the memory thing handle like siglent ( and for what they´re "blamed") for decades.
I did a capture of a 1Mhz sine in ms-range and zoomed in with no problems because 200mpts memory was active.
But in reverse this wouldn´t go on the siglent because of the memory decreasing.
Is this a really problem....

That depends largely on your habits (and what you typically do). The Siglent way means, if you want to make use of the deep memory, you need to remember starting from a slow timebase, setting up a potentially complex trigger for an event that happens once every blue moon and not seeing what you captured until you zoom in. I personally find that a little impractical.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: maginnovision on January 23, 2020, 10:48:08 pm
I'm in agreement with thinkfat and nctnico. I trigger on one thing then I want to make sure others are in line after that. I don't typically zoom out because especially when you have lots of stuff on screen that hurts visibility(even with the R&S resizing ability), but I do scroll forward and back. I'm typically using 2-4 analog and 12-16 digital, so the higher the resolution and the bigger the screen the better. It's a big part of why I still have the RTB not the RTM or RTA. For some things I'd love the low noise RTA, and I'd like to have power analysis from either... But considering the BW is fine they just aren't offering me enough to switch. The SDS2000X plus has more downsides and, honestly, having the "bigger" memory doesn't even help because I use the segmented(history) memory anyway which gives me much more overall memory.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 23, 2020, 11:05:23 pm
Thankyou, your post makes it clearer to me.
The "issue" that the siglent got is not a general one, only specific wise.



Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 24, 2020, 01:14:22 am
All lecroy models [...] got one thing in common:
Same behaviour as the siglent scope….memdepth will decrease when the timebase becoming shorter.
The better Lecroys (e.g. Waverunner 6zi)  offer a selection between "Maximum Memory" and "Fixed Sample Rate" (in real-time sampling mode).
In the "maximum memory" setting, you select the "maximum sample points" and the scope adjusts the sample rate when changing the time scale (or pre/post trigger delays) to make use of the given sample points.
In the "fixed sample rate" setting, you select the sample rate which is kept whatever time base you select. "Lesser" Lecroys like the WS3000 don't offer this kind of flexibility but support only the "maximum memory" mode.

Anyway, note that when using a fixed memory length, even if this means that your record length is ten times longer that what you seen on the screen, this also decreases the update rate and increases the dead time. So while it can be handy to force a scope into doing so, this is usually not what you want as only or even default setting in normal trigger mode. In single trigger mode though, there is no real reason to not fill the whole memory. So when comparing the behavior of different scopes, the trigger mode could make a difference.

Of course you could argue whether acquiring offscreen data after the trigger event is always more interesting than offscreen data before the trigger event. So if capturing offscreen data was supposed to be an important feature, you'd also need a setup that allows to somehow define a maximum pre/post trigger offset.  I would think that no scope on the market offers something like that.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 24, 2020, 04:52:28 am
My Tektronix MDO3k seems to capture the full memory depth that you set regardless of time-base. I guess that is the point to setting the memory in the first place.. since that setting would serve no purpose if it was time-base dependent.

If it have 10M memory length and 5GSa/s and IF it always use full memory regardless of timebase how it reach nearly 300kwfm/s capturing speed. Yes of course it can not. With 5GSa/s alone 10Msamle takes 2ms. (I believe there is other mode for max wfm speed)
If user have 1ns/div setting and IF screen is (just for easy numbers) 1 div wide... user can see 10ns and 1999980 ns is out from display and rest are invisible included to true visual blind time.

Difference with Siglent is that you need look both on the screen at same time, long memory and then detailed slice as need,  if you want long memory and short timebase details. Often these cases do not need maximal wfm speed so this is not problem at all (and as previously told and is obvious no one can do fast long memory), still Siglent hw based second timebase is quite usable. You set 1st timebase and memory limit setting for wanted memory length  and then 2nd  timebase as fast as need for wanted details and then position 2nd timebase where ever you need inside long trace. Also force trigger position horizontally to fixed position so that you have ok amount of pre and post trigger lenth. Long memory trace (slow timebase)and then this narrow window, including that you can also in runtime look what ever place in whole lengtht and also use different time bases if need.  Why need hide this long trace and look only this tiny slice.
Disadvantage in Siglent is that zoomed window have less vertical room. Well enough for 8 bit resolution itself but if there is 16LA and 4 analog  then it is really too small window. What Siglent can do if they want is: When zoomed (and this is important mode in siglent) this long trace aka main window vertical size can reduce more and give much more room for this hardware based zoom window. Why they keep is as half screen. Also is it difficult to use some 3:4 TFT or otherways more vertical room, specially when we talk MSO scopes. This is optimal for situations where "normal mode" is zoomed window open.




Due to heavy lack of internet speed just now I can not search who told something about segmented acq. vs long mem or something like it.

1. Of course Siglent have fast segmented acquistion mode, up to 90000 segments depending segment length and some other things.

2. Siglent have also always background running slow segmented acquisition(current wfm speed). (wfm history buffer fifo what user can inspect after stop and also there every segment have time stamp and max amount of segments is depending about used memory length and some other settings but unlike fast segmented mode here user can not set segment limit number just segments fifo with max segments.)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 24, 2020, 05:19:28 am


Of course you could argue whether acquiring offscreen data after the trigger event is always more interesting than offscreen data before the trigger event. So if capturing offscreen data was supposed to be an important feature, you'd also need a setup that allows to somehow define a maximum pre/post trigger offset.  I would think that no scope on the market offers something like that.

Of course Siglent do....

  (some models with new FW) you can force trigger to wanted position in memory.
This can partially solve this need.
There is two modes in Siglent for trigger horizontal position.
1. Time offset mode from center of screen.
2. Fixed horizontal (memory/display) position mode and because display width from  left border to right border in Siglent = acquisition length aka memory length it can say that trigger can set to fixed position in currently used memory length. Of course if then user do other settings and memory length change its proportional position in memory length stay same. With this feature it can set even for " analog scope" style where trigger stay start of sweep (exept amount of fixed (if not adjustable in some specials...) trig delay what normal analog scopes have)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 24, 2020, 08:27:33 am
About new SDS2000X Plus SFRA aka Bode Plot.

SDS2kX+ have 50MHz internal signal generator.

I have not SDS2000X Plus and here in China all who knows are now spring holidays.

Who can check if this model can use internal signal generator for BP use only without FG license installed. Even with scopes with external SAG USB generator do not need SAG  license if use this only for BodePlot.

If use SDS2kX+ internal signal gen only for BP (BP controls it automatically) do it work now with latest FW without FG licence.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: edigi on January 24, 2020, 08:27:40 am
This is the point where I get a little bit confused today.
Obviously lecroy, a "A-Brand", does the memory thing handle like siglent ( and for what they´re "blamed") for decades.
I did a capture of a 1Mhz sine in ms-range and zoomed in with no problems because 200mpts memory was active.
But in reverse this wouldn´t go on the siglent because of the memory decreasing.
Is this a really problem....

In couple of cases I had the situation where the point where I could trigger and what I really wanted to check was far apart (concrete practical case: SPI messages but could be anything else as well). To be able to adjust the trigger I had to set a small timebase (zoom in) in then set a bigger timebase (zoom out) for capture then set a smaller timebase for the captured signal (zoom in) again and then scroll. A bit tedious (compared to just scrolling), but nothing I'd really call a problem (considering the price point).

Maybe it can be solved similarly how I did it with FFT, where FFT is also done using the samples that you see on the screen: Set a timebase that all needed samples (for example 1M) fit onto the screen and use zoomed signal window to see the actual signal shape (done via pushing the timebase button). In case of FFT it means 3 different windows (please don't ask why I want to see both the signal shape and FFT output; simply SA would have been complex to use) or alternatively continuously switch between FFT output and 3 orders of magnitude timbase difference for checking signal shape.

Naturally this DSO has an excellent display with much better resolution (compared to what I've used) that probably helps but I still could imagine some improvements in this regard.

I couldn't care less how the top DSO vendors do it as based on their price point (even used) I'm not their target customer and for a big pile of money they have probably a solution for just about anything.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: edigi on January 24, 2020, 08:39:53 am
1. Time offset mode from center of screen.
2. Fixed horizontal (memory/display) position mode and because display width from  left border to right border in Siglent = acquisition length aka memory length it can say that trigger can set to fixed position in currently used memory length. Of course if then user do other settings and memory length change its proportional position in memory length stay same. With this feature it can set even for " analog scope" style where trigger stay start of sweep (exept amount of fixed (if not adjustable in some specials...) trig delay what normal analog scopes have)

Do you mean when Delay displayed in the top left corner (see attached picture)? Hmm, this sounds great then.
It would be good to know which model/firmwares support this.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on January 24, 2020, 08:52:22 am
1. Time offset mode from center of screen.
2. Fixed horizontal (memory/display) position mode and because display width from  left border to right border in Siglent = acquisition length aka memory length it can say that trigger can set to fixed position in currently used memory length. Of course if then user do other settings and memory length change its proportional position in memory length stay same. With this feature it can set even for " analog scope" style where trigger stay start of sweep (exept amount of fixed (if not adjustable in some specials...) trig delay what normal analog scopes have)

Do you mean when Delay displayed in the top left corner (see attached picture)? Hmm, this sounds great then.
It would be good to know which model/firmwares support this.
All X-E, 2kX+ and 5kX models.
X-E: Utility>Reference Pos>Horizontal>Fixed Position.
Then no matter what timebase settings are used the H Pos stays in the same position on the display.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 24, 2020, 11:55:05 am
All lecroy models [...] got one thing in common:
Same behaviour as the siglent scope….memdepth will decrease when the timebase becoming shorter.
The better Lecroys (e.g. Waverunner 6zi)  offer a selection between "Maximum Memory" and "Fixed Sample Rate" (in real-time sampling mode).
In the "maximum memory" setting, you select the "maximum sample points" and the scope adjusts the sample rate when changing the time scale (or pre/post trigger delays) to make use of the given sample points.
In the "fixed sample rate" setting, you select the sample rate which is kept whatever time base you select.
But that still doesn't give you acquisition beyond the edge of the screen even if there is enough memory to do so. And Keysight proves that it is perfectly possible to have high update rates AND deep memory at the same time.
Quote
Anyway, note that when using a fixed memory length, even if this means that your record length is ten times longer that what you seen on the screen, this also decreases the update rate and increases the dead time. So while it can be handy to force a scope into doing so, this is usually not what you want as only or even default setting in normal trigger mode. In single trigger mode though, there is no real reason to not fill the whole memory. So when comparing the behavior of different scopes, the trigger mode could make a difference.

Of course you could argue whether acquiring offscreen data after the trigger event is always more interesting than offscreen data before the trigger event. So if capturing offscreen data was supposed to be an important feature, you'd also need a setup that allows to somehow define a maximum pre/post trigger offset.  I would think that no scope on the market offers something like that.
In many cases waveform update rate doesn't really matter when debugging digital / mixed signal circuits. Regulary I use normal mode and take single shots of specific events. It would be logical to have the centre of the screen as the centre point of the memory (half left, half right). At the point where this starts to matter you'll need to choose the time/div and trigger offset settings so you capture the part of the signal you want. But with deep memory this isn't difficult. The biggest benefit of deep memory is that you don't have to care so much about the trigger.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 24, 2020, 02:23:20 pm
And Keysight proves that it is perfectly possible to have high update rates AND deep memory at the same time.
Keysight own Salesmens University have perhaps own basic math book. 1M memory need one M samples to fill. If sampling speed is 1GSa/s it takes 1ms and even with zero blind time (impossible) 1kwfm/s. But when deep memory is selected and scope is running for high update rates it can not capture deep memory, but salesmens forget to tell it....  Yes there can do example last acquisition trick.... and fool users (I do not know what is Keysight salesmens trick for this).  After I have seen tens of years how they fulfill sales brochures and example compare to others in appnotes I do not wonder anything anymore.

But how about deep full mem measurements during this high speed update rate with deep memory, how salesmens jump over this lazy fox. Oh... they never promised...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 24, 2020, 02:40:34 pm
And Keysight proves that it is perfectly possible to have high update rates AND deep memory at the same time.
Keysight own Salesmens University have perhaps own basic math book. 1M memory need one M samples to fill. If sampling speed is 1GSa/s it takes 1ms and even with zero blind time (impossible) 1kwfm/s. But when deep memory is selected and scope is running for high update rates it can not capture deep memory, but salesmens forget to tell it....  Yes there can do example last acquisition trick.... and fool users (I do not know what is Keysight salesmens trick for this).
There is no fooling users. Now you sound like the sales brochure you loath so much.

Just run two acquisition systems in parallel. One for storage and one for display. I have implemented something similar a couple of years ago. Works like a charm.
Quote
But how about deep full mem measurements during this high speed update rate with deep memory, how salesmens jump over this lazy fox. Oh... they never promised...
No oscilloscope can measurements / math realtime. And it seems Siglent does ERES and Sin x/x interpolation in software which is even worse. But then again I don't really care about waveform update rates. I rather have an oscilloscope which offers a high rate of productivity (=least amount of twiddling knobs). The latter is where Siglent needs to improve.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 24, 2020, 02:43:10 pm
1. Time offset mode from center of screen.
2. Fixed horizontal (memory/display) position mode and because display width from  left border to right border in Siglent = acquisition length aka memory length it can say that trigger can set to fixed position in currently used memory length. Of course if then user do other settings and memory length change its proportional position in memory length stay same. With this feature it can set even for " analog scope" style where trigger stay start of sweep (exept amount of fixed (if not adjustable in some specials...) trig delay what normal analog scopes have)



Do you mean when Delay displayed in the top left corner (see attached picture)? Hmm, this sounds great then.
It would be good to know which model/firmwares support this.

If we talk about pos 2.
Answer with your image no.
In fixed position mode it is not possible to set trigger position outside main display window.
Your trigger position is far outside of screen. Fixed Position mode trigger reference position is always inside display in user defined fixed horizontal position (what can translate also as fixed position in memory length). 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 24, 2020, 02:50:55 pm
And Keysight proves that it is perfectly possible to have high update rates AND deep memory at the same time.
Keysight own Salesmens University have perhaps own basic math book. 1M memory need one M samples to fill. If sampling speed is 1GSa/s it takes 1ms and even with zero blind time (impossible) 1kwfm/s. But when deep memory is selected and scope is running for high update rates it can not capture deep memory, but salesmens forget to tell it....  Yes there can do example last acquisition trick.... and fool users (I do not know what is Keysight salesmens trick for this).
There is no fooling users. Now you sound like the sales brochure you loath so much.

Just run two acquisition systems in parallel. One for storage and one for display. I have implemented something similar a couple of years ago. Works like a charm.
Quote
But how about deep full mem measurements during this high speed update rate with deep memory, how salesmens jump over this lazy fox. Oh... they never promised...
No oscilloscope can measurements / math realtime. And it seems Siglent does ERES and Sin x/x interpolation in software which is even worse. But then again I don't really care about waveform update rates. I rather have an oscilloscope which offers a high rate of productivity (=least amount of twiddling knobs). The latter is where Siglent needs to improve.

Huhh... how can I stob this laughing, lets make scope what have two screens... fast wfms and then slow deep memory and same power switch so they can run "parallel" oh my... well synched.  |O :-DD
But of course it need be fun, now is Spring Festival eve aka New Year eve.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 24, 2020, 03:07:01 pm
But that still doesn't give you acquisition beyond the edge of the screen even if there is enough memory to do so. And Keysight proves that it is perfectly possible to have high update rates AND deep memory at the same time.
Is there even any affordable (<10k) Keysight scopes that qualifies for "deep memory"? Last time I had a look, they had 4Mpts which is not exactly what I would call deep.

Quote
In many cases waveform update rate doesn't really matter when debugging digital / mixed signal circuits. Regulary I use normal mode and take single shots of specific events. It would be logical to have the centre of the screen as the centre point of the memory (half left, half right). At the point where this starts to matter you'll need to choose the time/div and trigger offset settings so you capture the part of the signal you want. But with deep memory this isn't difficult. The biggest benefit of deep memory is that you don't have to care so much about the trigger.
I not an a update rate aficionado either but typically Keysight sacrifices absolutely everything for update rate. So I'm puzzled that of all possible manufacturers, Keysight would sacrifice update rate for cpaturing additional data. Are you sure that they show this behavior in normal mode and not only in single trigger mode? And as stated above: single trigger mode is a different topic and it's pointless to compare the behavior of one scope in normal trigger mode with another one in single trigger mode.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 24, 2020, 03:19:34 pm
4MPts isn't exactly deep indeed but the way (-I think-) Keysight works it is easely expandable to 40Mpts, 400MPts, 4Gpts. Doesn't really matter.
And Keysight doesn't sacrifice anything. If I'm right they use two parallel acquisition systems. One with the large memory which works like a continuous circular buffer and one with a short buffer (enough to fill the screen) to do high update rates. Once you press stop Keysight scopes wait until the rest of the large memory buffer is filled before allowing the user to scroll left / right. It is a very simple & elegant solution.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on January 24, 2020, 03:31:19 pm
4MPts isn't exactly deep indeed but the way (-I think-) Keysight works it is easely expandable to 40Mpts, 400MPts, 4Gpts. Doesn't really matter.
And Keysight doesn't sacrifice anything. If I'm right they use two parallel acquisition systems. One with the large memory which works like a continuous circular buffer and one with a short buffer (enough to fill the screen) to do high update rates. Once you press stop Keysight scopes wait until the rest of the large memory buffer is filled before allowing the user to scroll left / right. It is a very simple & elegant solution.
Can you please explain what you mean by: Keysight works it is easely expandable to 40Mpts, 400MPts, 4Gpts. Doesn't really matter.  It sounds interesting
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: supperman on January 24, 2020, 04:03:35 pm
My Tektronix MDO3k seems to capture the full memory depth that you set regardless of time-base. I guess that is the point to setting the memory in the first place.. since that setting would serve no purpose if it was time-base dependent.

If it have 10M memory length and 5GSa/s and IF it always use full memory regardless of timebase how it reach nearly 300kwfm/s capturing speed. Yes of course it can not. With 5GSa/s alone 10Msamle takes 2ms. (I believe there is other mode for max wfm speed)
If user have 1ns/div setting and IF screen is (just for easy numbers) 1 div wide... user can see 10ns and 1999980 ns is out from display and rest are invisible included to true visual blind time.

Yes, if you set the memory to 10m it will take longer to capture and the number of triggers goes down below the rated speed of the scope. It can take 10 seconds or longer per trigger depending on the time base (i.e. 1/10 sample per second). I thought that is well understood and the exact behavior you want it to have.. You want it to be faster then make the memory smaller.. that is why you have the setting.

The memory length setting would serve no purpose if it was overridden by the time base setting. Why would you ever set it to less than the max? (perhaps segmented memory has something to do with it.. but I think in that case you should have 2 settings, memory length per trigger and number of triggers captured)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 24, 2020, 04:06:11 pm
4MPts isn't exactly deep indeed but the way (-I think-) Keysight works it is easely expandable to 40Mpts, 400MPts, 4Gpts. Doesn't really matter.
And Keysight doesn't sacrifice anything. If I'm right they use two parallel acquisition systems. One with the large memory which works like a continuous circular buffer and one with a short buffer (enough to fill the screen) to do high update rates. Once you press stop Keysight scopes wait until the rest of the large memory buffer is filled before allowing the user to scroll left / right. It is a very simple & elegant solution.

So it is something like as think, last acquisition trick... elegant solution yes but...claiming it do deep memory and fast update rate is bit borderline...  I do not deny that it can be useful in some cases.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 24, 2020, 04:08:39 pm
4MPts isn't exactly deep indeed but the way (-I think-) Keysight works it is easely expandable to 40Mpts, 400MPts, 4Gpts. Doesn't really matter.
And Keysight doesn't sacrifice anything. If I'm right they use two parallel acquisition systems. One with the large memory which works like a continuous circular buffer and one with a short buffer (enough to fill the screen) to do high update rates. Once you press stop Keysight scopes wait until the rest of the large memory buffer is filled before allowing the user to scroll left / right. It is a very simple & elegant solution.
Can you please explain what you mean by: Keysight works it is easely expandable to 40Mpts, 400MPts, 4Gpts. Doesn't really matter.  It sounds interesting
You can make a circular buffer for this purpose as long as you like. The only limitation is the amount of pre-fill time. If memory is split in half and the 50% mark of the memory is at the centre of the screen (remember the trigger point itself can be anywhere so it doesn't make sense to use the trigger point a reference to a location in the memory) then you have to wait until 50% of the memory is filled before the first trigger event can be processed. With 4Mpts (and in case of Keysight 1Mpts in reality) the prefill time doesn't really matter much.

@rf-loop: no, using parallel acquisition systems isn't borderline anything. It works and gives the user best of both worlds under all circumstances. There are no downsides to it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 24, 2020, 05:11:31 pm
Who can check if this model can use internal signal generator for BP use only without FG license installed.

I can…
But: License is not installed, so far so "good", but my scope got this function in trial-mode, don´t know NOW what happen if the trial is running out.
Maybe I should activate this 27 times to know it - No.. ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 24, 2020, 05:12:01 pm
4MPts isn't exactly deep indeed but the way (-I think-) Keysight works it is easely expandable to 40Mpts, 400MPts, 4Gpts. Doesn't really matter.
Well, no, for a couple of reasons. We'll see about that.

And Keysight doesn't sacrifice anything. If I'm right they use two parallel acquisition systems.
For sure they sacrifice functionality for update rate. E.g. the first thing they sacrificed was memory depth. In the past they also crippled measurements by using only the onscreen data. Someone in this forum stated this is no longer the case, since they introduced a measurement buffer but my impression is that this is also some kind of workaround instead of measuring and displaying from the actual sample buffer as LeCroy and Tek scopes do.
But anyway: I think it's clear that they only achieve the high update rate by using an expensive specialized ASIC and this makes it impossible for them to easily increase the memory depth. So whatever their current approach is, it can't be easily extendend to 4GPts.

One with the large memory which works like a continuous circular buffer and one with a short buffer (enough to fill the screen) to do high update rates. Once you press stop Keysight scopes wait until the rest of the large memory buffer is filled before allowing the user to scroll left / right. It is a very simple & elegant solution.
Actually that doesn't seem to be possible even from a theoretical point of view. If you're in normal trigger mode and press stop, there is usually no way to continue sampling from the trigger point unless pressing the button happens more or less at the same time as the last trigger event. E.g. assuming the current DOSX3000T Keysights have 4MPts for your hypothetical circular buffer: at 2.5GSa/s, it would be filled within 1.6ms. So if you stop the aquisition in normal trigger mode and the trigger event happened e.g. 10ms before, the circular buffer was filled again multiple times. Sorry, but this just doesn't seem to be a feasible approach.
Again, what you're suggesting is IMHO only possible in single trigger mode and looking into the DSOX3000T manual seems to confirm this. Quote from the manual: "Pressing [Single] instead of [Stop] fills the maximum memory depth". And I think that other scopes fill the whole selected ("maximum") memory in single trigger mode as well (if this is feasible).

Besides, even letting all of this aside, your suggested approach would not be "easily expandable" to any memory depth. As you say, the scope needs to fill the buffer before it lets you have a look, scroll around etc. Now with 4Gpts and a sample rate of 1MSa/s, it would take 4000 seconds to fill the buffer. That's more than an hour. Now with the 4Mpts of a current Keysight, that's not as much of an issue unless you select a 1kSa/s or so (if that's even possible). Actually I would think that a Keysight doesn't allow you to select an acquisition setup that would delay reaction to a key by even a few seconds. Yet with 200MPts of a Siglent SDS2000X Plus, it would take 200 seconds at 1MSa/s to fill the memory. That doesn't sound horribly feasible either. So it's natural that a scope tries to select either memory depth or sample rate to avoid getting locked or slow down to a crawl. Actually, of all scopes, LeCroys tend to allow you setting up acquisition modes that are terribly slow or only fill a part of the screen and Keysight adepts criticize them for exactly this lack of automatically selecting a setup that gives immediate feedback.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 24, 2020, 05:33:06 pm
Maybe I should activate this 27 times to know it - No.. ;)

No need to do this - the trial-counter decrease when you use the bode plot function, so I guess the option must be installed to use it as internal source.
Would be nice if siglent could do a fix in that case.
Apropos fixing…
You turn on the the bode plot and the awg will turn on too.
But if you disable bode plot, the awg remains to be on.
Clearly a bug.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 24, 2020, 06:09:37 pm
So if you stop the aquisition in normal trigger mode and the trigger event happened e.g. 10ms before, the circular buffer was filled again multiple times. Sorry, but this just doesn't seem to be a feasible approach.
You are overthinking it. The circular buffer runs continuously BUT like every scope Keysight uses double buffering! In your example the first buffer is stopped after a trigger event but the second buffer is not. The buffering is not stopped / started at every trigger event. Think about that for a while and you'll see that this works perfectly when using a parallel acquisition system. Remember: I have build such systems several times already using standard FPGAs. There is no need for a special ASIC.

Regarding the prefill time: that is why oscilloscopes have several selections so the user can select a memory depth which is most suitable for the task at hand. After all an oscilloscope is supposed to be a universal tool and some people may have a use to have 4Gpts being sampled at 1Ms/s. I switch between memory depth settings if necessary.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 24, 2020, 07:47:44 pm
Daniel Bogdanoff stated once that the MegaZoom scopes use something they call "ping pong" memory in normal trigger mode. This is why the memory is halved in normal trigger mode vs. single trigger mode - letting aside that the 4MPts are really all the memory there is, so without interleaving, you effectively only have 1MPts per channel in normal trigger mode and 2MPts in single trigger mode. Actually I'm unsure how the interleaving works exactly and there seem to be two MegaZoom ASICs in the DSOX3000, but for the moment I assume you get 1MPts per channel in normal trigger mode with all four channels enabled. Anyway, so much about the deep memory.
Now would this work without a specialized ASIC with onboard memory? Well, maybe it would in the meantime as the ASIC is old now and FPGAs improved over the years. But given that no FPGA scope has yet reached the overall speed (taking into account also decoding speed and responsiveness) of the MegaZoom scopes, this is just an assumption.
Anyway, the term "ping pong" is usually used for a linear double buffer, not for a circular one. Also the sampling doesn't continue for the same trigger, but the two buffers are used for distinct triggers. So the data of the first buffer is displayed on the screen and the 2nd buffer is used to serve the next trigger event. Again, this just shows that they sacrificed everything for fast update rates and short dead times. I just don't see the magic in this.
Now, is this the ultimate solution that would work just the same with 4GPts? No, of course it isn't and wouldn't. Even a double buffering approach means that you can't reuse the same buffer while it's still processed. If you need to fill a gigantic buffer, you can split it in half to double the update rate or in a hundred buffers, but the only benefit is the higher update rate and smaller dead time.
Anyway, even if the DOSX3000 scopes actually captures the whole 2MPts (interleaved) or 1Mpts (non-interleaved) , I wonder if this "more" is even worth discussing looking at the buffer sizes. If at all, the additional data capture seems be more of an artifact of the double buffer strategy (might simplify the buffer handling to use fixed sizes) and doesn't cause a significant performance hit (update/dead time wise) because the buffers are so small anyway.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 24, 2020, 08:18:10 pm
I don't think getting deep into the nitty-gritty of implementation details is very helpfull. And I disagree about responsiveness and decoding speed being unique to Keysight. There are many other scopes out there with fast decoding update speeds (R&S for example). Responsiveness of the user interface has nothing to do with acquisition hardware but everything with how the scheduling is done in the software.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on January 24, 2020, 08:27:57 pm
I don't think getting deep into the nitty-gritty of implementation details is very helpful.
It is as it helps us understand how each brand addresses their memory depth management and why they each have selected a particular scheme.

A facit that needs further discussion so to better understand Siglents implementation is their continuously running History buffer of some 200 MPts.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 24, 2020, 08:57:44 pm
I don't think getting deep into the nitty-gritty of implementation details is very helpful.
It is as it helps us understand how each brand addresses their memory depth management and why they each have selected a particular scheme.
But not up to the point where 'we' are about to write VHDL and C code.
Quote
A facit that needs further discussion so to better understand Siglents implementation is their continuously running History buffer of some 200 MPts.
I'm quite sure nobody cares about history mode because it basically is an acquisition mode without clearly defined boundaries. The way it sits now it is just filling memory which could be put to much better use. I have come across several DSOs which have history mode but (unlike segmented recording where you can set clear boundaries) I never really found a good use for history mode. Once you want to define boundaries (like the number of segments and length) you get into segmented recording mode territory immediately. R&S has both on the RTM3004 but history mode is basically segmented mode using a first-in first-out recording mode.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 24, 2020, 09:12:39 pm
Lecroy also relies on history mode and on the memorydepth management - I think, when having full memorydepth independend from timebase is an important thing, they would implement it.
But they don´t and I´m sure they could if they want, there must be a reason why some brands doing it and some brands don´t.
Wether they´re so called A-Brands or not.
They'd be fools to weaken themselves against the competition.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on January 24, 2020, 09:23:26 pm
I'm quite sure nobody cares about history mode because it basically is an acquisition mode without clearly defined boundaries.
:-//
You don't, you've already stated you don't care about wfps and hence blind time.....others do !

The age old discussion of DSO vs CRO has much to do about blind time of DSO's so why would a designer implement a memory management scheme where blind time could impact on scope usability ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 24, 2020, 09:34:41 pm
Lecroy also relies on history mode and on the memorydepth management - I think, when having full memorydepth independend from timebase is an important thing, they would implement it.
But they don´t and I´m sure they could if they want, there must be a reason why some brands doing it and some brands don´t.
Wether they´re so called A-Brands or not.
They'd be fools to weaken themselves against the competition.
Let's put it this way: there are less brands which don't have recording outside the screen compared to brands who have. So far Lecroy and Siglent seem to be the only brands. Lecroy always has been a bit of an odd-ball brand; therefore Lecroy isn't the best benchmark when looking for industry standards. Lecroy doesn't have peak detect for example which also is a limiting factor. Don't ask me for the reason. It could be a limitation of their acquisition hardware in order to make it cheaper or a principle. Last week I had a junior engineer come to me complaining a 1PPS signal was intermittant. Turning on peak detect on the oscilloscope he used fixed that; the pulse was too narrow to show up on screen.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 24, 2020, 09:39:57 pm
I'm quite sure nobody cares about history mode because it basically is an acquisition mode without clearly defined boundaries.
:-//
You don't, you've already stated you don't care about wfps and hence blind time.....others do !

The age old discussion of DSO vs CRO has much to do about blind time of DSO's so why would a designer implement a memory management scheme where blind time could impact on scope usability ?
Now you are moving the goal posts trying to make it look like it is never good enough for me. People are smart enough to see through that. It has been pointed out many times before that modern triggering features (like zone triggering and runt triggering) are much more useful for catching rare events than just staring at a screen. Besides that allowing variable memory depth allows the user to select between long (partly off-screen) acquisitions or high waveform updates so if people feel inclined to stare at a screen then they can still do so. In my RTM3004 review I have already showed that deep memory combined with clever waveform display techniques can make a rare event stand out like a sore thumb even without resorting to specific triggers.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 24, 2020, 11:14:32 pm
There must be advantages and disadvantages given, when some makes it possible to use full memdepth over all and some don´t.
I did measurings since 17yrs at work, 5 days a week - Maybe the most of them wasn´t so complex, but surely above the needings for the most hobbyists.
In this time I never had the case that the way lecroy does it´s business won´t fulfill our needs.
Therefore I won´t blame the managing of the memory depth like siglent does as a true failure.
There must have been advantages and disadvantages to do so.
And we´re talking about 200Mpts memory maximum.
Have a look to a keysight DSOX2014a....
Costs more than double, having 100Kpts Memory.
Or tektronix TDS2014C....Costs over 3000 and have 2.5 kpts memory .
Or lecroy WS3014z..... 10Mpts Memory and costs 4486€....
So what we´re talking about…
Spin the time-wheel for saying 10yrs backwards...which memorydepth was possible...and how much did it costs…
How could engineers and technicians lives with it ?
Keeping this in mind for me the actually discussion is somekind of worthless.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 24, 2020, 11:32:04 pm
Somehow you managed to pick all the oscilloscopes with the least amount of memory in their price range. The Megazoom ASICs from Keysight date back to about 20 years ago and for the time they had superior memory depths. And there is a whole slew of scopes with deep memory nowadays: Tektronix TBS2000 series has 10Mpts per channel IIRC, R&S RTB2000 has 20Mpts, GW Instek GDS1000B and GDS2000E series have 10Mpts (20Mpts in segmented mode), Yokogawa DLM3000 series has 50Mpts in their base model (up to 500Mpts/channel), etc.

We are not living 10 years ago. We live now and large memory makes life easier. Acquire once and analyse is much quicker compared to acquiring multiple times and try to solve a puzzle from different measurements. Sure people managed to solve problems in the past too but at the expense of needing more time. And the latter is where my point is at: good tools save time and you should always be looking for better tools even if you are satisfied with the tools you have. You might stumble onto something which is better. I upgrade my equipment (which I need/use to make a living) all the time in order to work more efficiently.

Over the years I have owned several high-end logic analysers. The first one had 1kpts or 2kpts per channel and no 'compression' so it really needed carefully crafted trigger conditions and making screendumps to get a complete picture of a puzzle. The next one had 128kpts per channel. A huge improvement because it allowed making longer acquisitions and doing analysis on the signals where cause & effect where related. The next one has 32Mpts per channel and compression. I can capture several video frames of data to a TFT screen with 1ns resolution with it. Doing one capture gets me all the timing data I ever need to diagnose the interface.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 24, 2020, 11:52:41 pm
Quote
Somehow you managed to pick all the oscilloscopes with the least amount of memory in their price range.

Not somehow and you know it.

Remember the price of a SDS2104X Plus ?

Right, appx 1400€ incl. tax….
What do you get from the so called A-Brands for this money ?
And therefore again, what we´re talking about....

1400 might be very, very low cost, but for hobbyists, most of them, it would be a huge money to spend for.
When we discuss and compare, we always should compare in the pricerange it costs.
I grab the models which nearly came close to the specs of the new siglent.
You might working with "high end models", to having this point of view in general.
Again, what do you get from the A-Brands for 1400€ ?






Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 25, 2020, 12:32:23 am
Well... R&S has the RTC1000 series and an RTB2002 is in a similar price bracket. Tektronix TBS2000 series is also very nice to use although no decoding. But Siglent isn't an A-brand so it would be comparing apples and oranges anyway. Other choices with mature firmware would be GW Instek or MicSig (I own scopes from the last two brands). I would take any of these over the SDS2000X just because of the automatic memory depth and clunky decoding.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 25, 2020, 01:06:47 am
Quote
Well... R&S has the RTC1000 series and an RTB2002 is in a similar price bracket. Tektronix TBS2000 series is also very nice to use although no decoding.

RTB2000, 100Mhz, 4 channel will cost about double.

RTC series....got only 2 channels and small display, no comparison.
Tektronix TBS 2104( 4 channel , 100Mhz)...costs nearly double than the siglent (2200 against 1400) .

I can understand your intentions, but be aware of what we´re talking about.



Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 25, 2020, 01:09:11 am
Again: you can't compare Siglent to A-brand pricing. For starters the service level of the A-brands is in a completely different league. If you want to compare the SDS2000X with A-brand prices then compare the price Lecroy asks for the SDS2000X with other A-brands.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Someone on January 25, 2020, 01:46:53 am
Acquire once and analyse is much quicker compared to acquiring multiple times and try to solve a puzzle from different measurements.
This is the core you hang on to and blow up into such a big issue. There may be some use cases where capturing data outside the screen in a single capture is useful while simultaneously seeing the smaller window in realtime, but it seems to be a very very niche application. Even when it is useful (which is not obvious to most users as exampled here) you insist that using a zoom window as the solution (which most scopes support for this use case) is somehow not usable at all.

You make it a noisy problem, the rest of us get on with life and work. Sure it might be really important to you, but that doesn't represent the market/users as a whole.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: maginnovision on January 25, 2020, 01:56:10 am
I find myself using it more than you'd think(I also use auto which is enough to fill screen). It's really nice when using decoding and debugging issues in my real-time systems. I trigger where I suspect and also see everything else around it which USUALLY give me more hints without manually searching.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 25, 2020, 02:05:27 am
Acquire once and analyse is much quicker compared to acquiring multiple times and try to solve a puzzle from different measurements.
This is the core you hang on to and blow up into such a big issue. There may be some use cases where capturing data outside the screen in a single capture is useful while simultaneously seeing the smaller window in realtime, but it seems to be a very very niche application.
It is certainly not a niche application; there are several others who agree with me. 'Recording outside the screen' is a huge productivity boost for debugging / verifying embedded / mixed signal systems where you usually have a screen crammed full with various signals. You may not see it as such but it is like using shoes with laces versus slippers if you have to walk in & out of the house all the time (without keeping shoes on inside the house). Actually the original SDS2000 had 'recording outside the screen' in the first firmware releases but it would not always retain this setting which was already a nuisance. When dealing with embedded systems there is a need to see what happened before or after whatever is on screen regulary.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 25, 2020, 03:12:35 am
Quote from: nctnico

When dealing with embedded systems there is a need to see what happened before or after whatever is on screen regulary.

Also example I have needed this and many times. Some cases solved using always background working acquisition buffer (example serial bus messages) and some cases solved using normal zoom, example some circuit safe brown down sequence.
Also today possible to set trigger reference position to fixed memory position is some advantage least for me in these cases.

With full window zoom (usual DSO with long memory acq mode) can not see hidden parts what is some times poor but with Siglent you are forced to see both (why some peoples do not like see whole memory lenght in runtime is a complete mystery to me, except bit too small display area) , details in zoom window and you see also whole acquisition length and possible to see some useful there. Only disadvantage is with windowed zoom with full memory length display that display area in TFT is small if there is lot of traces. If there is more room for both windows, Siglent solution is imho supergood least for me.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: maginnovision on January 25, 2020, 03:22:51 am
You should try the R&S then. It's even better(objectively)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Someone on January 25, 2020, 07:31:06 am
Acquire once and analyse is much quicker compared to acquiring multiple times and try to solve a puzzle from different measurements.
This is the core you hang on to and blow up into such a big issue. There may be some use cases where capturing data outside the screen in a single capture is useful while simultaneously seeing the smaller window in realtime, but it seems to be a very very niche application.
It is certainly not a niche application; there are several others who agree with me. 'Recording outside the screen' is a huge productivity boost for debugging / verifying embedded / mixed signal systems where you usually have a screen crammed full with various signals. You may not see it as such but it is like using shoes with laces versus slippers if you have to walk in & out of the house all the time (without keeping shoes on inside the house). Actually the original SDS2000 had 'recording outside the screen' in the first firmware releases but it would not always retain this setting which was already a nuisance. When dealing with embedded systems there is a need to see what happened before or after whatever is on screen regulary.
Way to chop out the quote just to perpetuate the noise...

Acquire once and analyse is much quicker compared to acquiring multiple times and try to solve a puzzle from different measurements.
This is the core you hang on to and blow up into such a big issue. There may be some use cases where capturing data outside the screen in a single capture is useful while simultaneously seeing the smaller window in realtime, but it seems to be a very very niche application. Even when it is useful (which is not obvious to most users as exampled here) you insist that using a zoom window as the solution (which most scopes support for this use case) is somehow not usable at all.
You can acquire once, using the zoom window or several other options.
You've yet to provide any specific examples where its useful to have a realtime view of a narrow time slice of many signals vertically and then once stopped move around the captured. Where both all the signals need to be visible vertically in the realtime and in a narrow window simultaneously, with the additional constraint that despite wanting realtime view you couldn't view this repetitive event and then take a single capture at a longer acquisition depth.

Either its repetitive and you can deal with spinning the horizontal control to go out to a wider view, or its not repetitive and the realtime view of the narrow segment is your imaginary hard requirement. Looking at a short time base to setup the details of a trigger is normal enough, but then its triggering and you don't need to inspect it any more, then move the acquisition window to capture what you're trying to observe.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on January 25, 2020, 08:43:07 am
Well, yes. Well aware that there are ways to do what you need to with any tool. Just some tools are less cumbersome to use.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Someone on January 25, 2020, 09:06:16 am
Well, yes. Well aware that there are ways to do what you need to with any tool. Just some tools are less cumbersome to use.
Some people see the extension of memory around the visible window as cumbersome by lacking controls of its position and having to use menus to change memory depths manually, when compared to the other methods using auto/maximum memory depth. But I don't push the point endlessly and try to say everything should work the way I prefer.

What the SDS2000 Plus does have is the very practical history buffer (so much more useful than segmented capture modes that don't have a continuous ring buffer of captures) alone a reason to need some memory depth controls.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 25, 2020, 10:21:31 am
Well, yes. Well aware that there are ways to do what you need to with any tool. Just some tools are less cumbersome to use.
Exactly!

You've yet to provide any specific examples where its useful to have a realtime view of a narrow time slice of many signals vertically and then once stopped move around the captured.
I have done that several times already. Just read. Sure you can make-do with work-around but why use a make-do solution if you can get something more productive? All the alternative ways you list mean doing more work. And there is no reason at all for Siglent not to implement recording beyond the screen. The original SDS2000 even had it!

Bottom line is I won't buy / recommend a scope which doesn't have recording beyond the screen because it is less productive. There is no agueing around that and for Siglent it means losing sales opportunities because they don't support all usage scenarios. It is simple like that.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Someone on January 25, 2020, 10:41:09 am
There is no agueing around that
Beacuse you say so...  great explanation.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on January 25, 2020, 10:42:13 am
Well, yes. Well aware that there are ways to do what you need to with any tool. Just some tools are less cumbersome to use.
Exactly! See my shoes versus slippers example. Sure you can make-do with work-around but why use a make-do solution if you can get something more productive? And there is no reason at all for Siglent not to implement recording beyond the screen. The original SDS2000 even had it !
When you work out why it was dropped then we'll all breathe easier.  :phew:

Bottom line is I won't buy / recommend a scope which doesn't have recording beyond the screen because it is less productive. There is no agueing around that and for Siglent it means losing sales opportunities because they don't support all usage scenarios. It is simple like that.
I never did see Siglent marketing on your CV and there are no surprises why if you can't adapt to another DSO usage style or can't fully comprehend why this memory management scheme is employed.....that doesn't conform to your DSO usage style.

I'm quite sure nobody cares about history mode because it basically is an acquisition mode without clearly defined boundaries.
:-//
You don't, you've already stated you don't care about wfps and hence blind time.....others do !

The age old discussion of DSO vs CRO has much to do about blind time of DSO's so why would a designer implement a memory management scheme where blind time could impact on scope usability ?
Now you are moving the goal posts trying to make it look like it is never good enough for me.
Nope !
I thought you were smart enough to put 2+2 together but maybe not and you're just having your fun here  :horse:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 25, 2020, 10:58:47 am
Bottom line is I won't buy / recommend a scope which doesn't have recording beyond the screen because it is less productive. There is no agueing around that and for Siglent it means losing sales opportunities because they don't support all usage scenarios. It is simple like that.
I never did see Siglent marketing on your CV
Read more careful then. I get involved in buying test equipment purchase decissions at customers regulary. It would be nice to have some lower cost options for osciloscopes on my list.
Quote
and there are no surprises why if you can't adapt to another DSO usage style or can't fully comprehend why this memory management scheme is employed.....that doesn't conform to your DSO usage style.
Read more careful then. Several others already agreed with me and I can comprehend just fine based on my experience with many different oscilloscopes I have owned and/or used. It is more likely the other way around; you can't comprehend the importance of having productive tools. Why adapt to a more cumbersome usage style? That is making-do which takes more time to get a task finished. I get that in your world Siglent is the greatest but I have a much broader horizon. What counts for me is productivity. Time is money so if a cheaper tool is slower to use it is more expensive in the long run.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 25, 2020, 11:25:29 am
Bottom line is I won't buy / recommend a scope which doesn't have recording beyond the screen because it is less productive. There is no agueing around that and for Siglent it means losing sales opportunities because they don't support all usage scenarios. It is simple like that.
I never did see Siglent marketing on your CV
Read more careful then. I get involved in buying test equipment purchase decissions at customers regulary. It would be nice to have some lower cost options for osciloscopes on my list.
Quote
and there are no surprises why if you can't adapt to another DSO usage style or can't fully comprehend why this memory management scheme is employed.....that doesn't conform to your DSO usage style.
Read more careful then. Several others already agreed with me and I can comprehend just fine based on my experience with many different oscilloscopes I have owned and/or used. It is more likely the other way around; you can't comprehend the importance of having productive tools. Why adapt to a more cumbersome usage style? That is making-do which takes more time to get a task finished. I get that in your world Siglent is the greatest but I have a much broader horizon. What counts for me is productivity. Time is money so if a cheaper tool is slower to use it is more expensive in the long run.
 

I have difficulties to understand why it is better when user see less at runtime.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 25, 2020, 11:54:18 am
One example: a while ago I had to debug a SoC design and wanted to check the CPU's core voltage because every now and then it would crash. For that I wanted to see what happened to the core voltage when it is switched. One channel on the signal to the regulator and one on the core voltage. Trigger set to the control signal and go. No idea on what timescale the event is taking place. Turned out that I choose the time/div too short so I couldn't see the entire event where the supply voltage dropped for a while. Since the oscilloscope I used (RTM3004) was on maximum memory depth I could simply turn the time/div  / horizontal position knobs to get more signal. From that single capture I had all the information needed to see what the exact problem was even though I had no idea about what I was going to look for. Recapturing the event on a different time/div setting would have meant waiting for another crash to happen.

Another example: every now and then there is a problem with an I2C message. In order to see whether a message is correct or not you need to see the part which goes wrong. Once the message is captured turning the time/div / horizontal position knobs can be used to check what happened leading up to the event. Again, it is unknown on what timescale the event is taking place so more memory is better because recapturing the event isn't easy.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on January 25, 2020, 04:21:02 pm
Bottom line is I won't buy / recommend a scope which doesn't have recording beyond the screen because it is less productive. There is no agueing around that and for Siglent it means losing sales opportunities because they don't support all usage scenarios. It is simple like that.
I never did see Siglent marketing on your CV
Read more careful then. I get involved in buying test equipment purchase decissions at customers regulary. It would be nice to have some lower cost options for osciloscopes on my list.
Welcome to my world. You still have some learning to do.
and there are no surprises why if you can't adapt to another DSO usage style or can't fully comprehend why this memory management scheme is employed.....that doesn't conform to your DSO usage style.
Read more careful then. Several others already agreed with me and I can comprehend just fine based on my experience with many different oscilloscopes I have owned and/or used. It is more likely the other way around; you can't comprehend the importance of having productive tools. Why adapt to a more cumbersome usage style? That is making-do which takes more time to get a task finished. I get that in your world Siglent is the greatest but I have a much broader horizon. What counts for me is productivity. Time is money so if a cheaper tool is slower to use it is more expensive in the long run.
Really ?  :-//
Having owned a good few scopes before I got involved with Siglent, this I do understand and adaption to each of their capabilities was paramount to productivity yet none had the power and capability of even a $499 4ch Siglent X-E.
One example: a while ago I had to debug a SoC design and wanted to check the CPU's core voltage because every now and then it would crash. For that I wanted to see what happened to the core voltage when it is switched. One channel on the signal to the regulator and one on the core voltage. Trigger set to the control signal and go. No idea on what timescale the event is taking place. Turned out that I choose the time/div too short so I couldn't see the entire event where the supply voltage dropped for a while. Since the oscilloscope I used (RTM3004) was on maximum memory depth I could simply turn the time/div  / horizontal position knobs to get more signal. From that single capture I had all the information needed to see what the exact problem was even though I had no idea about what I was going to look for. Recapturing the event on a different time/div setting would have meant waiting for another crash to happen.

Another example: every now and then there is a problem with an I2C message. In order to see whether a message is correct or not you need to see the part which goes wrong. Once the message is captured turning the time/div / horizontal position knobs can be used to check what happened leading up to the event. Again, it is unknown on what timescale the event is taking place so more memory is better because recapturing the event isn't easy.
:-DD  :clap:  :blah:
 :wtf: we're back in the beginners forum !
Actually quite amazing you could see all that past that glossy display.

^ This is the real power of a DSO, the ability to capture events.......oh hang on, fingers weren't connected to the bit between ears so to make good setup decisions while setting up for a single shot......no matter as Siglents History can come to your rescue. A single press of the History button is more productive than the twiddling of knobs you hate so much.
But hey, maybe a $350 DSO can better suit your needs for piss simple requirements.  :-\
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on January 25, 2020, 04:33:43 pm
The discussion has been pretty civil up to now. Unfortunately it seems this is about to change. I'll find my way out, thank you.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 25, 2020, 04:45:57 pm
Nevertheless, we should going back to topic and discuss the memory thing somewhere else.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on January 25, 2020, 09:28:40 pm
Getting back into topic...

About all those conditional BW upgrades, one thing seems clear: it's possible to upgrade a SDS2104X+ to 350MHz.   :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 25, 2020, 09:44:32 pm
Quote
it's possible to upgrade a SDS2104X+ to 350MHz

And I have to thank you for making it possible  :) :-+

Martin
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on January 25, 2020, 10:00:45 pm
Martin, it's time for a BW sweep and to see how it behaves.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 25, 2020, 10:06:08 pm
Don´t have a generator with such a high frequency - Only the Leo pulse gen and then calculate the BW... :(
Edit: Picture enclosed


Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on January 25, 2020, 10:19:46 pm
OK, then lower timescale (just on the rising) and do some averaging.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 25, 2020, 11:41:43 pm
OK, "tomorrow"... ;)

Another thing:

My siglent seems to be much noiseless as my former rigol 5074.
Apart from this, it shows no bandwith-limiting in the lower voltage ranges…
From 2mV on (till 500µV) rigol shows a "B" for bandwith-limited in this ranges.
Could this be real, no bandwith-limiting in that ranges ?


Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on January 25, 2020, 11:52:49 pm

Could this be real, no bandwidth-limiting in that ranges ?
Apparently so, no mention of auto BW limiting in the user manual or datasheet.
Only user selection of 20 or 200 MHz.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 26, 2020, 12:16:04 am
I will test again the ripple-noise of one of my linear power supplies, like I did with the rigol (and was a little bit disappointing about the noise- The first step I want to change the scope).
Apart from the "unholy" memory discussion, actual it´s a very nice scope for me.
The menu structure, the fast responsive of nearly everything are really impressive.
The rubber-coated handle....nice  ;D
More or less silent noiselevel (fan).
Actually, it´s a fine thing.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on January 26, 2020, 12:25:03 am
Getting back into topic...

About all those conditional BW upgrades, one thing seems clear: it's possible to upgrade a SDS2104X+ to 350MHz.   :popcorn:
And you stopped at 350 MHz ?  :-//  :P
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 26, 2020, 12:31:49 am
Hey, don´t blame him - I now have a 350Mhz scope for 1400 bucks…. ;D

(joking, big thanks to tv84 for his contributing)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: supperman on January 26, 2020, 01:31:18 am
Hey, don´t blame him - I now have a 350Mhz scope for 1400 bucks…. ;D

(joking, big thanks to tv84 for his contributing)

What did the scope do when you tried for 500Mhz???
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: supperman on January 26, 2020, 01:32:31 am
Don´t have a generator with such a high frequency - Only the Leo pulse gen and then calculate the BW... :(
Edit: Picture enclosed

So either it does the math for the rise time on the actual display pixels (i.e. there is error since the time base is too large) or you are running at 500Mhz...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 26, 2020, 01:57:14 am
Don´t have a generator with such a high frequency - Only the Leo pulse gen and then calculate the BW... :(
Edit: Picture enclosed

So either it does the math for the rise time on the actual display pixels (i.e. there is error since the time base is too large) or you are running at 500Mhz...
Just be aware that risetime doesn't always give the right bandwidth! It highly depends on what kind of anti-aliasing filter is used. For some scopes you'll need to use .4 or .45 as the constant. The only way to be 100% sure is to use a (levelled) frequency generator.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 26, 2020, 08:02:02 am
OK, "tomorrow"... ;)

Another thing:

My siglent seems to be much noiseless as my former rigol 5074.
Apart from this, it shows no bandwith-limiting in the lower voltage ranges…
From 2mV on (till 500µV) rigol shows a "B" for bandwith-limited in this ranges.
Could this be real, no bandwith-limiting in that ranges ?

In datasheet first introduction pages there it is told indirectly.
Noise level 80uVrms @500MHz bandwidth and it read in image where is used 500uV/div
It is bit unbelievable but it was unbelievable also in SDS1204X-E for 200MHz BW and it is enough reliable ways confirmed truth, it is full BW.
Also 500uV/div have not any side notes in datasheet.

It need note that Siglent 10-90 risetime with 500MHz is specified 0.8ns in datasheet (in many 500MHz scopes it is calculated value as 0.7ns).
Because freq response is not (gaussian) what typically was when Tek define 350/risetime ns = BW MHz thumb rule.
Of course different BW shape give different risetime even if -3dB point freq is same. Depending BW shape it may vary lot of. It is well explained in some Agilent/Keysight and also others appnotes.
Only true semigood method is leveled sine wave generator what levels it in scope input connector. Next method is normal good quality RF gnerator  whet level is known in its output port and as good signal pathway to scope input as possible due to more or less impedance mismatch. Better method is...handfull of expensive things and...   oh... but who cares. This is oscilloscope what pure sinewave BW we do not need know with high rocket science accuracy.


Your risetime image tell it simply. We can now say it is 350MHz scope without a doubt.  :-+


If compare 500uV/div range in SDS2000XPlus to SDS5000X, it loks like different. SDS5kX datasheet tell it, 350MHz model 500uV/div is limited to 200MHz
"Below 1 mV/div (included) the bandwidth is limited to 200 MHz"
And more, other SDS5kX models
"Below 2.45 mV/div (included) the bandwidth is limited to 200 MHz"

SDS2kXPlus datasheet do not tell half word about any exceptions with 500uV/div range.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Serg65536 on January 26, 2020, 09:00:46 am
Getting back into topic...

About all those conditional BW upgrades, one thing seems clear: it's possible to upgrade a SDS2104X+ to 350MHz.   :popcorn:

Is the two-channel version fully unlockable too?
I'm waiting the answer to buy a new oscilloscope. I've almost bought Rigol MSO5074, but the SDS2102x Plus is much better seems.

Please, point me to the unlock instruction.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 26, 2020, 09:21:56 am
Don´t have a generator with such a high frequency - Only the Leo pulse gen and then calculate the BW... :(
Edit: Picture enclosed

So either it does the math for the rise time on the actual display pixels (i.e. there is error since the time base is too large) or you are running at 500Mhz...

Siglent all new scopes after SDS1000X-E (including) do not measure calculate anything based display pixels, not even older what have intermediate buffer between image map and capture memory except very old siglent early phase first generation models aka ADS7000 or bit later SDS1000CM  etrc.

It use always full sample resolution acquisition memory, it is not from museum.
Fast timebases it also can use interpolation between true sample points. So it do not matter what timebase there is used in this case. Even if he use 1ms/div and look measurement statistics average after long time he get quite right number even when there it perhaps do not use interpolation between true samples.

If look only true sample interval alone what is 500ps in this case it is not enough for single shot measure this kind of risetime. But there is statistics, measurements average for repeating acquisitions with continuous waveforms.
Even extremely poor accuracy need 1.2 / 1.5 samples for edge under measurement. Poor accurcy can get with 1.75 sample for edge and some kind of medium accuracy using 3.5 samples for edge. Good accuracy can reach with 5 samples for edge... if all other things are not limiting accuracy. This is common rule, not related to any manufacturer.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on January 26, 2020, 10:03:32 am
And you stopped at 350 MHz ?  :-//  :P

If I say yes, you believe me?  :D

Tried but saw no model change so concluded as not effective. Didn't dedicate much time.

So, after we have the current 2354X+ envelope fully characterized, I think we can try again a 500 MHz scenario (if needed). I don't know if there is any "SDS2504X+" model string and if, as it is, it's already a 500MHz scope.   :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on January 26, 2020, 10:09:10 am
And you stopped at 350 MHz ?  :-//  :P

If I say yes, you believe me?  :D

Tried but saw no model change so concluded as not effective. Didn't dedicate much time.

So, after we have the current 2354X+ envelope fully characterized, I think we can try again a 500 MHz scenario (if needed). I don't know if there is any "SDS2504X+" model string and if, as it is, it's already a 500MHz scope.   :popcorn:
:)
This is the official 500 MHz option: SDS2000XP-4BW05  :popcorn:
https://siglentna.com/product/bandwidth-upgrade-350-to-500-mhz-4-channel-models-2/
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on January 26, 2020, 10:16:29 am
This is the official 500 MHz option: SDS2000XP-4BW05  :popcorn:

Sure, but where can you show me a "SDS2504X+" label?

Maybe after inserting that lic, the model string continues as a "SDS2354X+". As if Siglent wasn't thinking in achieving the 500MHz model as default.

What I mean is: you can buy a SDS5104X but you can't buy a SDS2504X+...   ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Serg65536 on January 26, 2020, 10:25:30 am

If I say yes, you believe me?  :D
Tried but saw no model change so concluded as not effective. Didn't dedicate much time.

Please give me a hint on the unlock procedure! :)

I can't wait to buy a new scope!  :-BROKE
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on January 26, 2020, 10:57:51 am
Please give me a hint on the unlock procedure! :)

This is a PoC. No public release for now.

This is the official 500 MHz option: SDS2000XP-4BW05  :popcorn:

Wait for Martin's new info...  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 26, 2020, 11:03:18 am
Hi,
I think we got the 500Mhz License installed.
Have a look at the pics below, if ONE channel is active, rise time will be appx 797ps - If you activate it´s neighbour, risetime increase to appx. 1.2ns and in both channels pops an "A" up.
Looking at the user manual, what does "A" means - Aha.... 8)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on January 26, 2020, 11:09:07 am
Looking at the user manual, what does "A" means - Aha.... 8)

Nice find!

So, the scope is working at 500 MHz mode and its model name is still "SDS2354X+".   8)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 26, 2020, 11:29:14 am
The menu structure, the fast responsive of nearly everything are really impressive.
The rubber-coated handle....nice  ;D
Actually, it´s a fine thing.

And the thin case and the non-toy-like structure on the frontpanel, everything is clear to see/easy to find.
I like it.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Sighound36 on January 26, 2020, 01:22:04 pm
Very interesting discussion here chaps, which essentially has boiled down is tier 2 level equipment cap[able of holding at least some of its own against the more established big four?

I have tried Siglent scopes and find very capable items at hobbist prices as per Rigol at the difference feature  /price points.

When looking for new R&D scope recently we sampled the R&S RTB2000 series, Keysight InfiniiVision 6000 X-Series, Le-Croy WaveRunner 8000HD and the Tektronix 6 series

All very good scopes, excellent resolution, BW aplenty, up to 16 Bits resolution, large 12.1"+ screen sizes,  accuracy plenty of dedicated apps (relevant ones) expandable memory segmented and other wise windows options and a plethora of probes upto £8K.

We did spent a good amount to time with each unit: make no mistake all these scopes are genuine R&D lab worth devices unquestionably.

The R&S I just didn't get on with, a personal no likie of the GUI, performance wise I felt it was joint 2nd of the group with the Keysight, the Lecroy I felt had the best jitter measurement suit and offered a greater insight in that area, not by much, for us it quirky-ness did sit well with the staff, though no doubt its a damn fine scope. Other may well find a different result.

For ourselves the Tek Mso64 gave our requirements the best spread of performance, apps and resolution and the GUI is very intuitive, all of these scopes with our requirements (including probes and apps) were are north of £50K + vat.

This is a matter of user preference which I feel is what we are boiling down to.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 26, 2020, 01:41:19 pm
Looking at the user manual, what does "A" means - Aha.... 8)

Nice find!

So, the scope is working at 500 MHz mode and its model name is still "SDS2354X+".   8)

Hahaha... there is not software switch what swap model number between SDS2354X+ and SDS2502X+  :-DD
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on January 26, 2020, 02:49:31 pm
Hahaha... there is not software switch what swap model number between SDS2354X+ and SDS2502X+  :-DD

And, in logical terms, I would say that we can take a "SDS2102X+" to "SDS2501X+" terrain...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: pizzarollz on January 26, 2020, 03:51:22 pm
I've been following this thread for a bit. I'm an embedded systems engineer and I'm looking for a DSO that I can use for working from home/for personal projects. I've been looking at both the SDS2104X+ and the MSO5074 as they're both within my budget and unlockable. I've heard a lot of complaints about Rigol's firmware bugs and crappy UI. Would the Siglent be a better choice? How would you rate the interface? The touchscreen seems like a great addition.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 26, 2020, 04:55:08 pm
Hi,

I´ve owned a 5074 for a year, so I can compare it with my new siglent.
But first of all:
The bugs the rigol got, aren´t so dramatically as they seem reading the posts.
You could work with it.

Rigol vs Siglent…

Rigol got lots of math functions and 4 math traces at same time displaying is possible. 8GSa/s vs the 2GSa/s the siglent got.
Both of them got 200Mpts Memory(when the rigol was unlocked), rigol got an HDMI Output, the siglent doesn´t have, even no VGA.
But this is unimportant, IMHO..
Because now to the Pros of the siglent.
Bigger screen, significant brighter and clearer. Touchpanel is significant faster what response concerns and seems to me more precisely.
Generally, the performance seems for me to be faster.
The menu structures are more clearer and understandable, 50Ohm Inputs, significant less noise in mV ranges (will test it), Eres function and finally it looks (and feels) more "adulter" to me.
But you will pay 500 bucks more for this puppy, so it should be "more" too...



Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 26, 2020, 04:57:56 pm
Admittedly, I'm a bit tempted to get one. I always dreamt about my next scope being in the 1GHz and >= 8GSa/s range but to be completely honest, where my current HMO2024 lacks the most is memory depth, screen size and lack of touch functionality (I'm using touchscreen Lecroys at work for >10years). So the SDS2104X+ "upgraded" to 500MHz would be still a big improvement in almost every possible aspect. And the cheapest 4ch SDS5000X is 2k€ more expensive which is just a bit too much to justify for me at this point.  Hm, I wonder if Batronix offers the  "embedded world" discount again this year.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 26, 2020, 05:48:56 pm
Here is an example why I like the eres function.
And it´s an example that having "tons" of memorypoints are not in every case a advantage.
Feeding in a 400hz sinewave with less Amplitude to get noisefloor, the right thing for the eres function, see below.
Before the pic was taken, I was confused about the behaviour.
Extreme slowing down, reactions last for seconds, the eres function looked worser than the original signal - what is happen ?
Answer: full memorydepth of 200Mpts...
Reduced this to 200K, signal becomes the shape I expected and reactions of the system are in normal manner.

A little hint for siglent : Like to have the actual math function displayed, in this case F1 eres…

Martin
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 26, 2020, 06:21:49 pm
Note that on other scopes Eres filtering is typically done in hardware (and not as a math function) so there is no slowdown even with deep memory enabled. Instead of Eres in software a user settable filter function would be much more usefull. GW Instek (for example) went this route. There is no Eres in hardware but instead there is signal filtering (low/high/band pass) which is actually more usefull to get rid of unwanted frequency components.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 26, 2020, 06:32:19 pm
Noticed.  ;)
I´ve survived the last 20yrs with software filtering, it wouldn´t kill me anymore.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Serg65536 on January 26, 2020, 06:53:01 pm
And, in logical terms, I would say that we can take a "SDS2102X+" to "SDS2501X+" terrain...

Is there 2 to 4 channel update options in the SCPI memdump?

There is no official 2ch to 4ch upgrade, but it could be something like this:
SDS2000XP-4CH01
SDS2000XP-CH401
SDS2000XP-2CH01
SDS2000XP-2C401
SDS2000XP-24C01
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: pizzarollz on January 26, 2020, 06:53:44 pm
This is a PoC. No public release for now.

Have you been able to unlock all of the protocol decoders as well?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 26, 2020, 06:54:15 pm
Quote
here is no official 2ch to 4ch upgrade

Makes sense, the only upgrade is to buy a 4-ch version
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on January 26, 2020, 07:09:43 pm
This is a PoC. No public release for now.

Have you been able to unlock all of the protocol decoders as well?
Apparently so:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=914688)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Serg65536 on January 26, 2020, 07:16:57 pm
Quote
here is no official 2ch to 4ch upgrade

Makes sense, the only upgrade is to buy a 4-ch version

It's a shame, official site shows 350 4ch model picture for the sds2102x+!  :-DD  |O  :-BROKE
https://www.siglent.eu/product/1176068/siglent-sds2102x-plus-2ch-100mhz-2gsa-s-oscilloscope (https://www.siglent.eu/product/1176068/siglent-sds2102x-plus-2ch-100mhz-2gsa-s-oscilloscope)

I'll better buy Rigol MSO5074.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 26, 2020, 07:24:07 pm
It will be worth it´s money, I know this.  ;)

Finally, some pics - Wavefrom update rate I couldn´t measure at home.

Pics showing:

Intensity grade, minimum
Intensity grade, maximum
Same, but coloured, minimum
Coloured, maximum
Display menu, I like the the backlight control..
FFT, "speed" is as fast or slow as by the rigol 5074
FFT, full screen
8Bit resolution
10Bit Resolution

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on January 26, 2020, 07:35:40 pm
Note that on other scopes Eres filtering is typically done in hardware (and not as a math function)

This is incorrect.

ERES (which is *not* the same as HiRes on other scopes [1] and which has only been available from LeCroy and for a short while now also from Siglent) has always been a software-based math function, and this for more than a quarter of a century (the only exception being early Siglent scopes like SDS2000 and subsequent scopes right up to the SDS5kX, although I'm not sure in all cases it's really true ERES, and in case of the SDS5000X it appears ERES will soon become a math mode there).

HiRes on the other hand is usually implemented as acquisition mode, although usually also in software.

I'm just following the forum occasionally but there seems to be an increasing tendency to call HiRes modes "ERES", which is not correct.


[1] https://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires (https://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on January 26, 2020, 07:41:58 pm
ERES "mode" bandwidth is 100MHz, according to the Siglent data sheet. So, quite a penalty at least for the higher spec'd versions. On the 100MHz version it would not really matter, I guess.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on January 26, 2020, 07:42:25 pm
It's a shame, official site shows 350 4ch model picture for the sds2102x+!  :-DD  |O  :-BROKE

siglent.eu is NOT the official site! It's a distributor. The official site is https://www.siglenteu.com/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 26, 2020, 07:43:41 pm
Note that on other scopes Eres filtering is typically done in hardware (and not as a math function)

This is incorrect.

ERES (which is *not* the same as HiRes on other scopes [1] and which has only been available from LeCroy and for a short while now also from Siglent) has always been a software-based math function, and this for more than a quarter of a century (the only exception being early Siglent scopes like SDS2000 and subsequent scopes right up to the SDS5kX, although I'm not sure in all cases it's really true ERES, and in case of the SDS5000X it appears ERES will soon become a math mode there).

HiRes on the other hand is usually implemented as acquisition mode, although usually also in software.

I'm just following the forum occasionally but there seems to be an increasing tendency to call HiRes modes "ERES", which is not correct.


[1] https://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires (https://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires)
In the end the effect is the same. The upside of doing hires/eres in a math trace is that it can be done using cheaper acquisition hardware and you get to keep the original samples (which can be useful for other purposes). The downside of doing filtering in software is decreased performance. The whole point of hires mode is to do filtering inside the acquisition hardware to get extra bits and/or less noise without taking a performance hit.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 26, 2020, 08:17:42 pm
This Siglent got it both, Hi-Res and Eres, it´s up to you what to use in specific cases.
By our new Lecroy 12bit scope, Eres hasn´t such a effect like on 8bit scopes.

Quote
ERES "mode" bandwidth is 100MHz, according to the Siglent data sheet. So, quite a penalty at least for the higher spec'd versions. On the 100MHz version it would not really matter, I guess.

Like all filters, whether they´re hardware- or software based you got bandwith limitations.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 26, 2020, 08:34:58 pm
This Siglent got it both, Hi-Res and Eres, it´s up to you what to use in specific cases.
In that case I'd assume Hi-res doesn't give you much of a performance penalty.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on January 26, 2020, 08:35:23 pm
ERES (which is *not* the same as HiRes on other scopes [1] and which has only been available from LeCroy and for a short while now also from Siglent) has always been a software-based math function, and this for more than a quarter of a century (the only exception being early Siglent scopes like SDS2000 and subsequent scopes right up to the SDS5kX, although I'm not sure in all cases it's really true ERES, and in case of the SDS5000X it appears ERES will soon become a math mode there).

HiRes on the other hand is usually implemented as acquisition mode, although usually also in software.

I'm just following the forum occasionally but there seems to be an increasing tendency to call HiRes modes "ERES", which is not correct.

[1] https://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires (https://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires)

In the end the effect is the same.

No, the point is that it's *not* the same. ERES has certain advantages over which may or may not be of interest to you, but if they are then HiRes simply isn't good enough.

Quote
The upside of doing hires/eres in a math trace is that it can be done using cheaper acquisition hardware and you get to keep the original samples (which can be useful for other purposes).

There is a reason why LeCroy hasn't followed others in implementing some HiRes mode as acquisition mode (aside from the general advantages of ERES itself), which is that by implementing it as a math mode the original sample data is still available. HiRes however, as an acquisition mode as implemented in most other scopes, is a destructive function, i.e. the original sampling data is lost.

Also, ERES as math mode makes it possible to use something else as the input channel (e.g. another math trace) as an input for ERES.

Quote
The downside of doing filtering in software is decreased performance.

I'm not sure what your point is. ERES is a software function but it runs on a general purpose processor (68k on the 9300 Series, PPC in LC/WRLT/WR2LT/WP900, x86 and X64 in X-Stream scopes) which didn't exactly struggle to perform these operations at a reasonable performance. Putting ERES in hardware may or may not make sense for an entry-level scope (it doesn't for mid-range and high-end scopes), but this would also increase costs when COTS processors these days offer plenty of performance. Depending how it's implemented, hardware ERES might also prevent its use with input data from something else as an analog channel.

HiRes is easy to implement because it's doesn't need a lot of processing resources, simply because it's such a simple mode. Which makes it faster, but again it doesn't deliver the same as ERES, so the speed comes at a trade-off.

Quote
The whole point of hires mode is to do filtering inside the acquisition hardware to get extra bits and/or less noise without taking a performance hit.

If that's all you want, fine, then go and buy one of the many scopes on the market which offer the common HiRes acquisition mode. There are plenty of models on the market.

But there's a reason why LeCroy has been and still is the number one when it comes to analysis scopes, and there is a solid demand for scopes which go beyond what other scopes offer. Siglent has obviously decided it makes sense to try to offer some similar capabilities in its new upper entry level scope instead of copying what everyone else is doing, which I find laudable. And even though the SDS2000X+ isn't a class of scope we normally buy, I can immediately think of a range of people I know which would love functionality like this and who don't need the large bandwidths (or the price tag) of a LeCroy scope.

Quote
And after reading the article I'm not sure whether the Lecroy method is mathematically correct from a signal processing perspective. If you are going to filter sharp edges you are supposed to get overshoots because you are filtering away extra harmonics. Hiding these is creating a false image.

The article is admittedly not an in-depth description, but I can assure you the theory behind ERES is sound.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 26, 2020, 09:03:23 pm
Quote
And even though the SDS2000X+ isn't a class of scope we normally buy, I can immediately think of a range of people I know which would love functionality like this and who don't need the large bandwidths (or the price tag) of a LeCroy scope.

I´m seriously thinking about to recommend it for our testdepartment.
Four channels is a must have, therefore it must be the 2104.
But 100Mhz are more than enough for the use in our testfield ( we are in power supply solutions ).
Options like FG or power analyzer we don´t need, we have FGs and power analyzing is only for our developement necessary - And we got some lecroys to do this.
The specs are remarkable for a 1400 bucks scope (like the timebase accuracy of 1ppm), it got gate-measuring ( we use this in our factory acceptance tests), it´s easy to handle..
So why not buying a couple of it.
For my private use it´s more than enough and in some cases "better" as my former scope.
Good thing for a good price.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 26, 2020, 10:21:21 pm
But there's a reason why LeCroy has been and still is the number one when it comes to analysis scopes, and there is a solid demand for scopes which go beyond what other scopes offer. Siglent has obviously decided it makes sense to try to offer some similar capabilities in its new upper entry level scope instead of copying what everyone else is doing, which I find laudable. And even though the SDS2000X+ isn't a class of scope we normally buy, I can immediately think of a range of people I know which would love functionality like this and who don't need the large bandwidths (or the price tag) of a LeCroy scope.
Still this would target a niche market. Not sure if that is the right target for Siglent right now. The general purpose bench oscilloscope market is much more interesting if you can compete on price while offering the same features. Siglent has improved a lot over the last couple of years but IMHO they need to look beyond Lecroy's features (and limitations!) and have at least the same basic feature set the competition offers (simple things like allowing to use all the memory without needing to jump through hoops for example). Otherwise Rigol may catch up in a couple of years.

Some of the engineers I have spoken to agree that Lecroy has some unique analysis features but if the competition would provide something similar they'd swap the Lecroy scopes in a heartbeat. That is not a good position to be in as a manufacturer. Recently I acquired a Lecroy Wavepro 7200A 7300A with tons of options but I wouldn't want to use this as a general purpose bench scope. It has so many features and options that it is getting cumbersome to setup for simple tasks. For example filtering; in some cases the filter doesn't even result in a filtered signal because the settings make the filter unstable. It really is geared towards analysis applications (besides showing a wiggly line). But maybe the new UI has been improved; I have not tried that.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 26, 2020, 10:52:18 pm
The way siglent adapts due to their cooperation some of the lecroy specials is not the badest one.
Actually there are only three leaders what scope buildings concerns and this for decades.
Keysight (Agilent, HP), tektronix and lecroy.
Everyone has it´s pros and cons and it´s up to you, which you choose for your works.
NONE of the three produced worthless things.
From the upcoming brands, I see siglent and rigol in front.
Good for the hobbyists, good for all.

Quote
But maybe the new UI has been improved; I have not tried that.

I do.

There is always a chance to loan a scope, try an actual waverunner or above.

But apart from that, really apart...
What´s the topic ?
Right, a new scope from siglent.
Not from lecroy, keysight, tektronix.
Not a scope which costs 5000 bucks or above.
We´re talking about scopes affordable for hobbyists.
Getting a scope from rigol or siglent it is a chance for not getting crap at all.
None would seriously compare them to the big three their models which was really builded from them.
Or as we in Germany say, you have to leave the church in the village... ;)




Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Someone on January 26, 2020, 11:17:24 pm
This Siglent got it both, Hi-Res and Eres, it´s up to you what to use in specific cases.
By our new Lecroy 12bit scope, Eres hasn´t such a effect like on 8bit scopes.
Quote
ERES 10bit "mode" bandwidth is 100MHz, according to the Siglent data sheet. So, quite a penalty at least for the higher spec'd versions. On the 100MHz version it would not really matter, I guess.
Like all filters, whether they´re hardware- or software based you got bandwith limitations.
Mr W posted a polite clarification, but you both keep repeating the opposite. The Siglent SDS2000X Plus has a 10bit "high resolution" acquisition mode that reduces the input bandwidth to 100MHz, and in addition it has a math filter (ERES) with preset cutoff rates relative to the current sampling rate.

There are more limitations than just the bandwidth, different filtering methods/types can have other effects on the resulting waveform as noted in that Lecroy document (the filter in the Siglent ERES may well be different to the one in Lecroy ERES). Conversely the fixed steps of the FIR ERES filter may not be as convenient as a variable cutoff frequency. Some other scopes don't increase the bit depth in high resolution mode, they just use it to reduce noise and still store 8 bit data, so the Siglent is a step up there.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 26, 2020, 11:20:37 pm
We´re talking about scopes affordable for hobbyists.
Getting a scope from rigol or siglent it is a chance for not getting crap at all.
Be careful. Tautech is going to kill you for stating Siglent equipment is for hobbyists only!  >:D

Besides that Rigol and Siglent aren't the only choices; there are other Asian brands which sell good equipment with solid firmware.

If you look at Siglent's pricing (without hacking) they are obviously targetting the professional market because that is where the big money is. IMHO Siglent equipment is already a good alternative when it comes to spectrum analysers and function generators (although some series are better than others). Oscilloscopes are obviously more complex but Siglent is really close to getting out of oscilloscope's 'little league' as well. They just need a push in the right direction to get into the major league.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 26, 2020, 11:51:07 pm
Quote
Siglent equipment is for hobbyists only!

It´s the truth and tautech should/will be know it... ;)

Actually I see only siglent on it´s way to be a professional, rigol got it´s chance with the incredible DS1054Z.
The mso5000 series is incredible also when you took it´s basic model and hacking it.
But take note of their official prices, up to 5000 bucks, up to 10000 or more what 7000/8000 concerns.
It makes me laugh…
Siglent choose to hang on one of the global players and with it they´re right.
Actually I can´t find anything on this model who will let me say don´t buy this !
But I could find things who are yelling buy me !!!  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on January 27, 2020, 01:16:10 am
Quote
Siglent equipment is for hobbyists only!

It´s the truth and tautech should/will be know it... ;)
Don't bring me into this as I had zip zero nada input into SDS2kX+ !

Following the SDS5000X series the only surprize was the shared vertical controls of SDS2kX+ whereas earlier SDS2kX had individual controls. The UI now mimics SDS5kX yet apparently there are some SDS2kX+ features to be ported into the SDS5kX UI.

Much of Siglents progress has come from their willingness to receive quality input from here on the forum but mostly from their worldwide team of beta testers sharing their experience of decades working with all manner of other brands in a professional environment. Some have even contributed to the HW design and then gone on to help maximise its capability.
A very big thanks to you guys......yes some of them are watching.  :clap:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Frex on January 27, 2020, 05:07:35 am
Hello,

This new oscope seems very promising ...
With the hack done, a real (only) competitor for the MSO5000 at this price tag.
Does anybody know if Dave planed a review for soon ?
That would be great to have it's expertise and see real use case.

Martin, could you try FFT in 10 bits mode, to see if noise floor is improved ?
FFT usage on scope is often limited by real input dynamic range.
Regards.

Frex

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on January 27, 2020, 09:35:15 am
This Siglent got it both, Hi-Res and Eres, it´s up to you what to use in specific cases.
By our new Lecroy 12bit scope, Eres hasn´t such a effect like on 8bit scopes.
Quote
ERES 10bit "mode" bandwidth is 100MHz, according to the Siglent data sheet. So, quite a penalty at least for the higher spec'd versions. On the 100MHz version it would not really matter, I guess.
Like all filters, whether they´re hardware- or software based you got bandwith limitations.
Mr W posted a polite clarification, but you both keep repeating the opposite. The Siglent SDS2000X Plus has a 10bit "high resolution" acquisition mode that reduces the input bandwidth to 100MHz, and in addition it has a math filter (ERES) with preset cutoff rates relative to the current sampling rate.

There are more limitations than just the bandwidth, different filtering methods/types can have other effects on the resulting waveform as noted in that Lecroy document (the filter in the Siglent ERES may well be different to the one in Lecroy ERES). Conversely the fixed steps of the FIR ERES filter may not be as convenient as a variable cutoff frequency. Some other scopes don't increase the bit depth in high resolution mode, they just use it to reduce noise and still store 8 bit data, so the Siglent is a step up there.

Ah, right! I goofed! I mistook 10bit mode for ERES in the datasheet. I read the document Wuerstchenhund pointed out and saw the table regarding the -3dB point referenced to Nyquist frequency for different amounts of bits gained and when I read through the datasheet, I found the 100MHz mentioned. I guess my brain wasn't really engaged that his point.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 27, 2020, 06:05:10 pm
Actually there are only three leaders what scope buildings concerns and this for decades.
Keysight (Agilent, HP), tektronix and lecroy.
Well, you are leaving Iwatsu (also rebadged by Lecroy) and Yokogawa out. Both are very respectable A-brands too.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 27, 2020, 06:41:45 pm
Hi,

I take a scope at home, so I can measure the waveformupdates.
Triggeroutput to a channel of the other scope.
What else must I obay, because the update-ratings are far away from the disclaimed 120,000....

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 27, 2020, 06:49:16 pm
Be aware that it the update rate only meets the specs for point mode (neither linear nor sinc interpolation). At least this was discussed for the SDS5000X.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 27, 2020, 08:13:35 pm
Yep,

In dot mode the update-rate will be max. 125000 or 500000 (sequential).
in vector mode the max. waveform-update will be max. 25000 (non sequntial).
Signal itself appears "unstable", it varies permantly.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on January 27, 2020, 09:06:49 pm
Can you please clarify what you mean by sequential and non sequential?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 27, 2020, 09:10:17 pm
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2047141/#msg2047141 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2047141/#msg2047141)

Rigol mso5074....
Doing here the same, 25Mhz sinewave, same timebase of 5ns : 23000Wfs/s vektor, 135000wfs/s dot mode, memory"depth" 100pts..
Further timebases ( vektor mode):

500ps 25100Wfs/s
1ns    22000Wfs/s
2ns    21700Wfs/s
10ns  19300Wfs/s
20ns  16900Wfs/s
And so on, at 500ns there will be 2150wfs/s left.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 27, 2020, 09:15:11 pm
Depending on how usable the point mode really is, this behavior could be one of the biggest issues with the new Siglents (SDS5000X as well). As long as there are more samples than pixels, this might be a non-issue. But at the very small time scales, this could very well be a showstopper.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 27, 2020, 09:15:15 pm
Quote
Can you please clarify what you mean by sequential and non sequential?

Acquisition mode, normal or sequential, see pic below.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 27, 2020, 09:29:30 pm
Quote
this behavior could be one of the biggest issues with the new Siglents (SDS5000X as well)

Maybe it´s a bug, in the manual they proudly disclaim:

Quote
Acq.- Mode: "Fast" is the default setting. The SDS2000Xplus provides a very high waveform update rate in fast mode

Plus the 120,000 named in the specs...it must be a bug.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 27, 2020, 09:35:04 pm
From the SDS5000X discussion, my understanding was that the slowdown of update rate in vector/sinc mode was an architectural decision.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 27, 2020, 09:43:19 pm
So they should be honest in the specs and disclaim the 120,000 in dot mode only.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on January 27, 2020, 09:46:33 pm
No manufacturer will disclose the worst case figures in the marketing datasheet.  Technically they are not lying with the 120Kwfm/s specification.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 27, 2020, 09:54:25 pm
I did a request to siglent eu, let´s see if they´re as cooperative as the rigol eu support... ;)

Below two pages of the manual, what the display modes vector and dots concerns.
And again, they "speak" of the high waveform update rate.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 27, 2020, 10:11:50 pm
It just proves once more Wfm/s is largely marketing wank. And I also wonder how the automatic memory length is affecting the number of waveforms/s. I just did a test on the RTM3004. If I use the automatic memory setting then looking at a sine of 100kHz at 5us/div (*12 division = 60us in total) uses a length of 300kpts resulting in an update rate of 1000 waveforms/s. If I set the memory length to 5000 pts the update rate increases to 12000 waveforms/s which is close to the theoretical limit of 1/60us= 16.7kHz. BTW choosing between dots or sin x/x makes no difference in update rate at 5000 points which is an added bonus.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: maginnovision on January 27, 2020, 10:22:10 pm
Honestly it's not surprising, it's a mostly ridiculous spec that requires all the right circumstances.  :-// Not an issue, and no matter what the specified number is, I don't care.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 27, 2020, 11:09:43 pm
And I also wonder how the automatic memory length is affecting the number of waveforms/s.

At the siglent you can "choose manually" the max amount of memory, but relatively soon the siglent takes control about it.
In fact, there is still a automatic memory length which can´t be change.
I like to have it always in my own hands, like I could do it on my former rigol 5074.

Quote
It just proves once more Wfm/s is largely marketing wank.

I don´t like this behaviour.
They claimed 120000 wfs/s, so I expect to have 120000 Wfs/s.
They claimed 200mpts, so I expect to have 200mpts.
When that was not further elaborated, like they do actually, I expect to have this in nearly every case.
I won´t to be misunderstood, still it´s a great value for it´s price and leave e.g. rigol far away in some cases.
But rigol disclaimed wfs/s up to 500000 and it was proved without any tricks.
So I expect it from siglent too.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 28, 2020, 04:38:09 am
Quote from: Martin72
But rigol disclaimed wfs/s up to 500000 and it was proved without any tricks.


You never measured Rigol wfms/s using different settings?


Quote from: Martin72
At the siglent you can "choose manually" the max amount of memory, but relatively soon the siglent takes control about it.
In fact, there is still a automatic memory length which can´t be change.
I like to have it always in my own hands, like I could do it on my former rigol 5074.

Next simplification etc is not directed to you, it is common.

With Siglent it is still in your hands. And it need do with your hands. User is master.
I recommend to learn use zoom mode more often than perhaps usual practice have been after other or other noname scopes.

Next I use simplified imagined numbers.

Noname scope run with "full window zoomed mode" where memory is (depending timebase) lot or more than lot over displayed window size. Hidden so that runtime user can not see. (I can imagine where from this method have started and then others nearly all have copycatted) After stop you can then pan/zoom these for look whole memory lenght.

Lets take extremely simple example. There is noname scope 1GSa/s, 10M memory and 10ns/div TB and window width is 10 div. You have 100ns long trace visible and 99999900 ns out from display, unvisible.

With Siglent you can also run in long memory even up to max memory. You select wanted memory length 10M using main timebase t/div 1ms/div (in this example 1GSa/s) (and memory limit setting if need). You see now full display where whole 10M used memory length without any hidden overlap.

Now with this main timebase for your wanted memory length (you are master, you control and command) you turn zoom on. Set this 2nd timebase 10ns/div.
Now you see both in display. Full memory length capture without out of display parts and this small time slice from whole length.

Now lets emulate this noname scope.
Take piece of black carton and place it over main timebase window. Now you see what you see using this noname oscilloscope.  Who think it is now better.  Take this black carton away, is it now poor. Scope what can not do this in runtime, least I do not buy anymore. And remember I talk now running scope, not stopped. All can pan and zoom and window zoom in stopped mode for whole memory visible or zoom in for details.

In case your work is some time so that you want long memory but want use fast timebase. Just teach your muscle memory to open scope already for zoomed mode. In moments you do not want see whole memory fix some paper over main timebase window if it feels better. 
Only real disadvantage is that displaying both there is less vertical room. All can not get, disadvantage there and advantage there... endless, as long as we need do compromises for reduce prices etc.

What is now different between scopes what run in "full window zoom mode".
Difference is that you are forced see both, full capture lengtht and then your selected zoomed part. You can not look only zoomed part in runtime.

It need also note that it is extremely useful to be well familiarized with waveform FIFO buffer. How many sequential last acquisitions this FIFO is, depends selected/used memory length and some other settings.

And extra note. If do not like trigger reference position is middle of acquisition memory then just move and fix it to other memory position what is wanted, example to (near) beginning of acquisition memory so it works like analog scope. Most of analog scopes have delay line so you see tiny bit before trigger.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Serg65536 on January 28, 2020, 08:33:26 am
Hi,

I take a scope at home, so I can measure the waveformupdates.
Triggeroutput to a channel of the other scope.
What else must I obay, because the update-ratings are far away from the disclaimed 120,000....

As far as I know, sds2000x+ has hardware accelerated pass/fail mask testing mode, but rigol mso5000 does it with a rate of few frames/second.
But siglent sds2000x (no plus) could not use zone triggering in the sequence mode. And what about "plus" models?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on January 28, 2020, 08:47:47 am
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2047141/#msg2047141 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2047141/#msg2047141)

Rigol mso5074....
Doing here the same, 25Mhz sinewave, same timebase of 5ns : 23000Wfs/s vektor, 135000wfs/s dot mode, memory"depth" 100pts..
Further timebases ( vektor mode):

500ps 25100Wfs/s
1ns    22000Wfs/s
2ns    21700Wfs/s
10ns  19300Wfs/s
20ns  16900Wfs/s
And so on, at 500ns there will be 2150wfs/s left.

Could you add how many points were sampled, at which sample rate, for each of the timebase settings?

EDIT: also, would be interesting if the trigger setup has an influence on the update rate, too. Edge trigger is easy, but how about runts or other, more complex setups?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 28, 2020, 10:21:56 am
Only real disadvantage is that displaying both there is less vertical room. All can not get, disadvantage there and advantage there... endless, as long as we need do compromises for reduce prices etc.
So what you are saying is: you can use the entire screen without zoom or use the entire memory with zoom but not both  :palm:
Besides that you'd need to setup the zoom window exactly so it uses the entire memory at maximum sample rate. That is yet another unnecessary step. Just stop trying to defend what is broken by design; it is a foolish excersize because there are no upsides to using zoom mode just to force a certain memory depth. What if you want to use zoom at a different time/div?  That results in just more knob pushing / turning.

I'm 100% sure Siglent can easely add a mode where you can select a certain memory length (from a few kpts to full memory). This is a simple software fix so this doesn't change anything to the price.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 28, 2020, 10:37:50 am
Only real disadvantage is that displaying both there is less vertical room. All can not get, disadvantage there and advantage there... endless, as long as we need do compromises for reduce prices etc.
So what you are saying is: you can use the entire screen without zoom or use the entire memory with zoom but not both  :palm:
Besides that you'd need to setup the zoom window exactly so it uses the entire memory at maximum sample rate. That is yet another unnecessary step. Just stop trying to defend what is broken by design; it is a foolish excersize because there are no upsides to using zoom mode just to force a certain memory depth. What if you want to use zoom at a different time/div?  That results in just more knob pushing / turning.

I'm 100% sure Siglent can easely add a mode where you can select a certain memory length (from a few kpts to full memory). This is a simple software fix so this doesn't change anything to the price.

Tens of years ago I was young man. I find my situation when I try explain milk color to born blind... now I feel bit same.  Then when I was young I finally find that I really do not need explain milk color to him and still we can talk other things... . I think this old solution was ok and can still use.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on January 28, 2020, 10:45:45 am
Only real disadvantage is that displaying both there is less vertical room. All can not get, disadvantage there and advantage there... endless, as long as we need do compromises for reduce prices etc.
So what you are saying is: you can use the entire screen without zoom or use the entire memory with zoom but not both  :palm:
Besides that you'd need to setup the zoom window exactly so it uses the entire memory at maximum sample rate. That is yet another unnecessary step. Just stop trying to defend what is broken by design; it is a foolish excersize because there are no upsides to using zoom mode just to force a certain memory depth. What if you want to use zoom at a different time/div?  That results in just more knob pushing / turning.

I'm 100% sure Siglent can easely add a mode where you can select a certain memory length (from a few kpts to full memory). This is a simple software fix so this doesn't change anything to the price.

Would be interesting to understand, if, using Zoom, you can actually get the highest sample rate together with the highest memory depth?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 28, 2020, 11:00:57 am
Tens of years ago I was young man.
If you are that old you should know tools should do the work for you. You shouldn't have to work the tools. That is something I learned in the tens of years since I was a young man.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on January 28, 2020, 11:04:31 am
But there's a reason why LeCroy has been and still is the number one when it comes to analysis scopes, and there is a solid demand for scopes which go beyond what other scopes offer. Siglent has obviously decided it makes sense to try to offer some similar capabilities in its new upper entry level scope instead of copying what everyone else is doing, which I find laudable. And even though the SDS2000X+ isn't a class of scope we normally buy, I can immediately think of a range of people I know which would love functionality like this and who don't need the large bandwidths (or the price tag) of a LeCroy scope.

Still this would target a niche market. Not sure if that is the right target for Siglent right now.

I wouldn't call (non-EE) engineering and science/research exactly a niche market.

Many non-EE parts of engineering use scopes, for example mechanical engineering, nuclear engineering (or pretty much anything which deals with radiation of some kind), medical engineering, chemistry and so on.

Then there is science, where scopes are used in a wide range of application from particle physics to astronomy.

I know this is an electronics forum, so most people here come with some kind of EE background, but don't let this fool you to think that scopes are pretty much just an EE's tool. Because they aren't.

Quote
The general purpose bench oscilloscope market is much more interesting if you can compete on price while offering the same features.

The general purpose bench scope market is pretty boring and crowded. Leaving LeCroy and Siglent aside for the moment, right now you can get a typical general purpose bench scope (say something in the 200-500MHz range) from Keysight, Rohde & Schwarz, Tektronix, Rigol, Iwatsu, Yokogawa, Hantek, GW Instek and Owon. That's nine vendors right there which all have different models in that category.

Now, if you take away the traditional big brands which are pretty expensive, there are still four B-brand vendors which serve the price conscious segment (i.e. hobbyists) - Rigol, Hantek, GWI and Owon.

That's quite some competition.

Now let's look at the vendors that specifically target the non-EE market with analysis scopes: LeCroy.

So there's that. In addition, LeCroy's analysis scopes (i.e. scopes which are not a simple rebadge of a standard scope from another manufacturer) start with the WaveSurfer Series, of which the WS3000z marks the bottom end. And being an X-Stream Lite scope, it may be cheap for what you get (and even more so when compared with other big brand scopes in the same class), but the smallest model (200Mhz 4ch) still starts at around $4.5k.

Most application outside the EE field require only modest bandwidths, so there definitely is room for a scope like the SDS2k+ with some advanced features.

Quote
Siglent has improved a lot over the last couple of years but IMHO they need to look beyond Lecroy's features (and limitations!) and have at least the same basic feature set the competition offers (simple things like allowing to use all the memory without needing to jump through hoops for example). Otherwise Rigol may catch up in a couple of years.

What features should that be that Siglent needs to add in your opinion, considering that Peak Detect and HiRes acquisition modes are apparently already offered in the SDS2kX+?

Not sure what you mean with "Rigol catching up" with Siglent. Rigol is much further, they have had high BW scopes for a long time (>5 yrs), they have had RF generators up to 6GHz for a few years, and for some time now are offering real-time spectrum analyzers up to 8GHz for a couple of years, based on their in-house developed ASIC.

Siglent just came out with its first 1Ghz scope and 3.2Ghz RF generator a year ago, it's spectrum analyzers are all standard type swept SAs with a BW up to 3.2GHz, and it uses COTS components in its products (no own ASIC).

So considering the facts, where exactly would Rigol be able to "catch up" to Siglent?

Besides, and without going into too much detail, a lot of Siglent's problems have actually been caused by their focus on being a better Rigol. It appears the co-operation with leCroy has given Siglent a better focus, and clearly Siglent's current products show the benefit of this co-operation.

Quote
Some of the engineers I have spoken to agree that Lecroy has some unique analysis features but if the competition would provide something similar they'd swap the Lecroy scopes in a heartbeat.

For what reason?

Also, the fact that, apparently, they still hang on to LeCroy because they offer functionality which clearly is important to them and which can't be found on other manufacturers' scopes, suggests that LeCroy is the one who does something right.

Quote
That is not a good position to be in as a manufacturer.

To be the only vendor for a functionality or feature your customers require is not a good position to be in? Seriously???

Quote
Recently I acquired a Lecroy Wavepro 7200A 7300A with tons of options but I wouldn't want to use this as a general purpose bench scope. It has so many features and options that it is getting cumbersome to setup for simple tasks. For example filtering; in some cases the filter doesn't even result in a filtered signal because the settings make the filter unstable. It really is geared towards analysis applications (besides showing a wiggly line). But maybe the new UI has been improved; I have not tried that.

News flash: WavePros aren't "general purpose scopes", they never were. These are special purpose deep analysis scopes which cost a truck-load of money and only make sense in applications which demand that kind of performance.

Size, noise and the limited trigger system alone make them a bad choice as general purpose scopes.

If you want a LeCroy scope which is suitable for general purpose use while offering advanced functionality then go for a WaveSurfer or WaveRunner, or a HDO.

And just to be clear, the poor suitability of the WavePro for general purpose work isn't specific to LeCroy, but applies to it's competitors as well. The Agilent DSO80k Series for example is equally horrible for standard tasks, and has some really annoying limitations in its sampling subsystem. The same is true for the DSO90k Series.

We got some Keysight UXR scopes recently, and while they are absolutely stunning scopes they are useless for your mundane poke-in-a-circuit stuff you'd use a bench scope for.

Looks like you bought the wrong scope for your needs.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Sighound36 on January 28, 2020, 11:28:18 am
But there's a reason why LeCroy has been and still is the number one when it comes to analysis scopes, and there is a solid demand for scopes which go beyond what other scopes offer. Siglent has obviously decided it makes sense to try to offer some similar capabilities in its new upper entry level scope instead of copying what everyone else is doing, which I find laudable. And even though the SDS2000X+ isn't a class of scope we normally buy, I can immediately think of a range of people I know which would love functionality like this and who don't need the large bandwidths (or the price tag) of a LeCroy scope.


Still this would target a niche market. Not sure if that is the right target for Siglent right now.


I wouldn't call (non-EE) engineering and science/research exactly a niche market.

Many non-EE parts of engineering use scopes, for example mechanical engineering, nuclear engineering (or pretty much anything which deals with radiation of some kind), medical engineering, chemistry and so on.

Then there is science, where scopes are used in a wide range of application from particle physics to astronomy.

I know this is an electronics forum, so most people here come with some kind of EE background, but don't let this fool you to think that scopes are pretty much just an EE's tool. Because they aren't.

Quote
The general purpose bench oscilloscope market is much more interesting if you can compete on price while offering the same features.


The general purpose bench scope market is pretty boring and crowded. Leaving LeCroy and Siglent aside for the moment, right now you can get a typical general purpose bench scope (say something in the 200-500MHz range) from Keysight, Rohde & Schwarz, Tektronix, Rigol, Iwatsu, Yokogawa, Hantek, GW Instek and Owon. That's nine vendors right there which all have different models in that category.

Now, if you take away the traditional big brands which are pretty expensive, there are still four B-brand vendors which serve the price conscious segment (i.e. hobbyists) - Rigol, Hantek, GWI and Owon.

That's quite some competition.

Now let's look at the vendors that specifically target the non-EE market with analysis scopes: LeCroy.

So there's that. In addition, LeCroy's analysis scopes (i.e. scopes which are not a simple rebadge of a standard scope from another manufacturer) start with the WaveSurfer Series, of which the WS3000z marks the bottom end. And being an X-Stream Lite scope, it may be cheap for what you get (and even more so when compared with other big brand scopes in the same class), but the smallest model (200Mhz 4ch) still starts at around $4.5k.

Most application outside the EE field require only modest bandwidths, so there definitely is room for a scope like the SDS2k+ with some advanced features.

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Siglent has improved a lot over the last couple of years but IMHO they need to look beyond Lecroy's features (and limitations!) and have at least the same basic feature set the competition offers (simple things like allowing to use all the memory without needing to jump through hoops for example). Otherwise Rigol may catch up in a couple of years.


What features should that be that Siglent needs to add in your opinion, considering that Peak Detect and HiRes acquisition modes are apparently already offered in the SDS2kX+?

Not sure what you mean with "Rigol catching up" with Siglent. Rigol is much further, they have had high BW scopes for a long time (>5 yrs), they have had RF generators up to 6GHz for a few years, and for some time now are offering real-time spectrum analyzers up to 8GHz for a couple of years, based on their in-house developed ASIC.

Siglent just came out with its first 1Ghz scope and 3.2Ghz RF generator a year ago, it's spectrum analyzers are all standard type swept SAs with a BW up to 3.2GHz, and it uses COTS components in its products (no own ASIC).

So considering the facts, where exactly would Rigol be able to "catch up" to Siglent?

Besides, and without going into too much detail, a lot of Siglent's problems have actually been caused by their focus on being a better Rigol. It appears the co-operation with leCroy has given Siglent a better focus, and clearly Siglent's current products show the benefit of this co-operation.

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Some of the engineers I have spoken to agree that Lecroy has some unique analysis features but if the competition would provide something similar they'd swap the Lecroy scopes in a heartbeat.


For what reason?

Also, the fact that, apparently, they still hang on to LeCroy because they offer functionality which clearly is important to them and which can't be found on other manufacturers' scopes, suggests that LeCroy is the one who does something right.

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That is not a good position to be in as a manufacturer.


To be the only vendor for a functionality or feature your customers require is not a good position to be in? Seriously???

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Recently I acquired a Lecroy Wavepro 7200A 7300A with tons of options but I wouldn't want to use this as a general purpose bench scope. It has so many features and options that it is getting cumbersome to setup for simple tasks. For example filtering; in some cases the filter doesn't even result in a filtered signal because the settings make the filter unstable. It really is geared towards analysis applications (besides showing a wiggly line). But maybe the new UI has been improved; I have not tried that.


News flash: WavePros aren't "general purpose scopes", they never were. These are special purpose deep analysis scopes which cost a truck-load of money and only make sense in applications which demand that kind of performance.

Size, noise and the limited trigger system alone make them a bad choice as general purpose scopes.

If you want a LeCroy scope which is suitable for general purpose use while offering advanced functionality then go for a WaveSurfer or WaveRunner, or a HDO.

And just to be clear, the poor suitability of the WavePro for general purpose work isn't specific to LeCroy, but applies to it's competitors as well. The Agilent DSO80k Series for example is equally horrible for standard tasks, and has some really annoying limitations in its sampling subsystem. The same is true for the DSO90k Series.

We got some Keysight UXR scopes recently, and while they are absolutely stunning scopes they are useless for your mundane poke-in-a-circuit stuff you'd use a bench scope for.

Looks like you bought the wrong scope for your needs.


Some very good observations there sir  8)

This has been my point entirely all along, if you are designing general EE equipment then a good decent everyday scope is very useful, if you have the luxury of an R & D scope then that a big added bonus. But a general day to day scope of around 500Mhz is suited to ourselves, although not in the the £1m+ per scope league our R&D is Tek 6 series. It is used purely for R&D, the every day stuff is a mix of Rigol/Keysight and  Rhode. We also have Siglent and R&S VNA's  as well.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 28, 2020, 11:56:10 am
Siglent has improved a lot over the last couple of years but IMHO they need to look beyond Lecroy's features (and limitations!) and have at least the same basic feature set the competition offers (simple things like allowing to use all the memory without needing to jump through hoops for example). Otherwise Rigol may catch up in a couple of years.

What features should that be that Siglent needs to add in your opinion, considering that Peak Detect and HiRes acquisition modes are apparently already offered in the SDS2kX+?
As I wrote before; two simple things: User selectable memory length settings and full memory decoding. Adding these (industry standard features) would make their oscilloscopes much easier & quicker to operate which translates in better productivity (instead of needing to use work-arounds).

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Not sure what you mean with "Rigol catching up" with Siglent. Rigol is much further, they have had high BW scopes for a long time (>5 yrs), they have had RF generators up to 6GHz for a few years, and for some time now are offering real-time spectrum analyzers up to 8GHz for a couple of years, based on their in-house developed ASIC.

Siglent just came out with its first 1Ghz scope and 3.2Ghz RF generator a year ago, it's spectrum analyzers are all standard type swept SAs with a BW up to 3.2GHz, and it uses COTS components in its products (no own ASIC).
The problem with Rigol is that it takes them years to get the firmware up to acceptable levels.This is an area where Siglent has made a huge improvement. After all:  having great specs on paper means nothing if the equipment has firmware issues. A couple of EEVblog forum members seem to have sold their Rigol MSO5000 already because the firmware doesn't get fixed.

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Besides, and without going into too much detail, a lot of Siglent's problems have actually been caused by their focus on being a better Rigol. It appears the co-operation with leCroy has given Siglent a better focus, and clearly Siglent's current products show the benefit of this co-operation.
I have noticed that too. In the beginning Siglent looked mostly at Rigol and they made a bad copy from a bad copy.

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Some of the engineers I have spoken to agree that Lecroy has some unique analysis features but if the competition would provide something similar they'd swap the Lecroy scopes in a heartbeat. That is not a good position to be in as a manufacturer.
To be the only vendor for a functionality or feature your customers require is not a good position to be in? Seriously???
Because there is no customer loyalty. You have to agree that you'd like your customers to go to your shop first instead of being the last shop they visit because they have to? That is the point I'm making here. Make sure to be the first shop your customers go to.

To me it seems that Lecroy has been working hard to offer a complete range of test equipment (by rebadging Siglent and GW Instek gear) so they can offer one-stop shopping to cater the EE market and not just the scientific market. And you also forgot one major player in the scientific market: National Instruments. They have a very solid combination with their hardware and software which is way more flexible compared to what is -in the end- an oscilloscope.

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Recently I acquired a Lecroy Wavepro 7200A 7300A with tons of options but I wouldn't want to use this as a general purpose bench scope. It has so many features and options that it is getting cumbersome to setup for simple tasks. For example filtering; in some cases the filter doesn't even result in a filtered signal because the settings make the filter unstable. It really is geared towards analysis applications (besides showing a wiggly line). But maybe the new UI has been improved; I have not tried that.

Looks like you bought the wrong scope for your needs.
No, I didn't. I bought it for high frequency and low trigger jitter measurements. I couldn't resist for $400 and after shipping ($350), fixing and fan upgrades I have around 850 euro in it. It was a deal I could not let pass by me.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on January 28, 2020, 12:04:26 pm
This has been my point entirely all along, if you are designing general EE equipment then a good decent everyday scope is very useful, if you have the luxury of an R & D scope then that a big added bonus.

Indeed, and which is why places which have something like a WavePro or WaveMaster also normally have a standard bench scope.

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But a general day to day scope of around 500Mhz is suited to ourselves, although not in the the £1m+ per scope league our R&D is Tek 6 series.

Not surprising, the Tek MSO6 is in the same class as the LeCroy WaveRunner Series.

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It is used purely for R&D, the every day stuff is a mix of Rigol/Keysight and  Rhode. We also have Siglent and R&S VNA's  as well.

We mostly buy LeCroy (scopes) and Keysight (scopes, some SAs and VNAs) and R&S (SAs and VNAs). We have a few Tek AWGs but other than that wouldn't touch them with a bargepole, and everytime we invite them for evaluation their kit just misses the mark  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on January 28, 2020, 12:43:40 pm
What features should that be that Siglent needs to add in your opinion, considering that Peak Detect and HiRes acquisition modes are apparently already offered in the SDS2kX+?

As I wrote before; two simple things: User selectable memory length settings and full memory decoding.

Reading this thread suggests that both is already implemented.

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Adding these (industry standard features) would make their oscilloscopes much easier & quicker to operate which translates in better productivity (instead of needing to use work-arounds).

Lots of buzz words right there, but funny enough it appears that the most loved (for its easy and quick operation) scope Keysight DSO-X lacks at least the first one (user selectable memory), but still manages to be the most widely sold bench scope Series in its class (the DSOX3k is as abundant as Athlete's Foot).

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The problem with Rigol is that it takes them years to get the firmware up to acceptable levels.This is an area where Siglent has made a huge improvement. After all:  having great specs on paper means nothing if the equipment has firmware issues. A couple of EEVblog forum members seem to have sold their Rigol MSO5000 already because the firmware doesn't get fixed.

The MSO5000 is on the market how long, maybe a bit over a year? And juding from Rigol's other products, they have also made lots of improvements regarding firmware quality, which seems to be a long way from 2014 or when the DS1000z came out. Problems with RTSA and MSO8000 were quickly sorted out.

As to Siglent, they did make a lot of progress since the days of the SDS2000. But that doesn't mean new products are released without bugs, because they still are. The SDS5kX has been released a year ago, and still has several bugs. The SDG6kX, released two years ago, also has several bugs. The difference between Siglent of old and today's Siglent is that the remaining bugs aren't complete showstoppers, and that some may only affect a limited number of users.

So there still are some trade-offs with Rigol and Siglent vs a big brand, although the difference is getting smaller and smaller.

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Besides, and without going into too much detail, a lot of Siglent's problems have actually been caused by their focus on being a better Rigol. It appears the co-operation with leCroy has given Siglent a better focus, and clearly Siglent's current products show the benefit of this co-operation.

I have noticed that too. In the beginning Siglent looked mostly at Rigol and they made a bad copy from a bad copy.

Siglent didn't try to copy Rigol, they wanted to compete with them. Rigol was seen as where Siglent wanted to be, which admittedly wasn't a lot better than were they already were. Today Siglent is aiming at the big brands, which has helped to give them some much needed focus for their products.

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Some of the engineers I have spoken to agree that Lecroy has some unique analysis features but if the competition would provide something similar they'd swap the Lecroy scopes in a heartbeat. That is not a good position to be in as a manufacturer.
To be the only vendor for a functionality or feature your customers require is not a good position to be in? Seriously???

Because there is no customer loyalty.

Customer loyalty doesn't exist, at least outside the hobbyist space. Any customer buys only from you as long as you deliver what he wants at a price he accepts. If he finds out he can get the same for a lower price from someone else then he'll drop you in a heartbeat.

That is reality.

And being the only vendor for a feature some customers need is in fact a very good position to be in. I can speak of experience here  ;D

As to "Some of the engineers I have spoken to agree that Lecroy has some unique analysis features but if the competition would provide something similar they'd swap the Lecroy scopes in a heartbeat", you left out the part where I asked for the reason of why they would swap LeCroy scopes (which ones btw) "in a heartbeat", and I'd really like to hear why this is.

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You have to agree that you'd like your customers to go to your shop first instead of being the last shop they visit because they have to? That is the point I'm making here. Make sure to be the first shop your customers go to.

Sure. And you can do that by offering something your competitors don't offer, not by offering the same with a different label.

Which is exactly what Siglent is doing.

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To me it seems that Lecroy has been working hard to offer a complete range of test equipment (by rebadging Siglent and GW Instek gear) so they can offer one-stop shopping to cater the EE market and not just the scientific market.

You don't understand: Teledyne Test Tools (T3) isn't a LeCroy brand, it's a Teledyne brand (Teledyne also owns LeCroy). T3 is aimed at the economy segment, something LeCroy was never really interested in (hence the LeCroy rebadges of Iwatsu and Siglent scopes, which are now gone). T3 mostly aims at the EE market because that's where simple scopes mostly end up.

But that doesn't mean LeCroy is not aiming at the EE market, which it definitely is (and has been so for more than three decades). It just gets rid of the simple kit so it can focus on advanced scopes for debugging, research and development, in a wide range of markets.

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And you also forgot one major player in the scientific market: National Instruments. They have a very solid combination with their hardware and software.

Since when does NI make bench scopes?

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Looks like you bought the wrong scope for your needs.
No, I didn't. I bought it for high frequency and low trigger jitter measurements. I couldn't resist for $400 and after shipping ($350), fixing and fan upgrades I have around 850 euro in it. It was a deal I could not let pass by me.

Understandable, but being a good deal doesn't change what type of scope this is, nor should it have surprised you that it's not a good general purpose scope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 28, 2020, 12:55:38 pm
What features should that be that Siglent needs to add in your opinion, considering that Peak Detect and HiRes acquisition modes are apparently already offered in the SDS2kX+?
As I wrote before; two simple things: User selectable memory length settings and full memory decoding.

Reading this thread suggests that both is already implemented.
No it isn't. You need to enable zoom mode as a work-around but that eats away a large part of the vertical space and it needs more tweaking controls & knobs from the user.

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Lots of buzz words right there, but funny enough it appears that the most loved (for its easy and quick operation) scope Keysight DSO-X lacks at least the first one (user selectable memory), but still manages to be the most widely sold bench scope Series in its class (the DSOX3k is as abundant as Athlete's Foot).
That is because Keysight uses full memory always but still manages to get high waveform update rates through a clever parallel acquisition system.

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As to "Some of the engineers I have spoken to agree that Lecroy has some unique analysis features but if the competition would provide something similar they'd swap the Lecroy scopes in a heartbeat", you left out the part where I asked for the reason of why they would swap LeCroy scopes (which ones btw) "in a heartbeat", and I'd really like to hear why this is.
That didn't come up in the conversation and I didn't ask because that would have diverged from the main topic of the conversation too much. I wasn't there to discuss test equipment.

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And you also forgot one major player in the scientific market: National Instruments. They have a very solid combination with their hardware and software.
Since when does NI make bench scopes?
They kind of do if you buy the modules to build a self contained system.

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Wavepro 7300A
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Looks like you bought the wrong scope for your needs.
No, I didn't. I bought it for high frequency and low trigger jitter measurements. I couldn't resist for $400 and after shipping ($350), fixing and fan upgrades I have around 850 euro in it. It was a deal I could not let pass by me.

Understandable, but being a good deal doesn't change what type of scope this is, nor should it have surprised you that it's not a good general purpose scope.
It didn't surprise me. I just noted that having an abundance of complex analysis features doesn't make for a good bench scope so Siglent shouldn't follow that example IMHO. So basically already writing what you wrote above.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 28, 2020, 02:53:56 pm

...zoom mode as a work-around but that eats away a large part of the vertical space and it needs more tweaking controls & knobs from the user.


It eats vertical space if compare to non zoomed. But display is now bigger and more resolution than example in models what have today example 800x480 TFT and in previous some Siglent models wfm area height is 400pixel and in zoom mode main timebase and second timebase window both same height. This model have 1024 x 600 but now dual timebase display is 1/3 for main timebase and 2/3 for second (details) timebase.
I do not know exact pixel height about these but clearly much more than these some other Siglent models. (personally I do not at all understand this popularity and copycatting this TFT size fashion. These are test and measurements tools not entertainment displays fo movies etc. 4:3 form factor is much better  and perhaps for Siglent even so that long side is vertical. Why need follow others.  
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on January 28, 2020, 03:21:56 pm
(personally I do not at all understand this popularity and copycatting this TFT size fashion. These are test and measurements tools not entertainment displays fo movies etc. 4:3 form factor is much better  and perhaps for Siglent even so that long side is vertical. Why need follow others.

Because this is the screen size that you can get cheap'ish now. It used to be 800x480, now it's 1024x600. In this low-cost market you need to penny-pinch if you want to make a profit. I guess this size and aspect ratio is common now for cheap Android or whatever tablets or other now-popular consumer gear so the Rigols and Siglents of the TE industry ride that wave. They don't sell enough to have screens custom made I guess.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 28, 2020, 03:57:59 pm
I don't think wide screens are bad. They do fit the form factor of an oscilloscope casing better and having more width is not a bad thing. After all you can fit more signal on the screen. Still a 4:3 screen offers more pixels compared to a wide screen with the same diagonal. Look at the MicSig TO1000 series for example. These have an 800x600 screen which offers 25% more pixels compared to 800x480.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 28, 2020, 04:16:32 pm
Could you add how many points were sampled, at which sample rate, for each of the timebase settings?
EDIT: also, would be interesting if the trigger setup has an influence on the update rate, too. Edge trigger is easy, but how about runts or other, more complex setups?

See below, the trigger thing I can test when second scope was here.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on January 28, 2020, 04:19:37 pm
Lots of buzz words right there, but funny enough it appears that the most loved (for its easy and quick operation) scope Keysight DSO-X lacks at least the first one (user selectable memory), but still manages to be the most widely sold bench scope Series in its class (the DSOX3k is as abundant as Athlete's Foot).
That is because Keysight uses full memory always but still manages to get high waveform update rates through a clever parallel acquisition system.

No, it doesn't. There is no "clever parallel acquisition system".

During normal operation (i.e. continuous mode), MegaZoom scopes like the current InfiniVision Series only use a small part of the memory (enough to feed the display), and only uses the full memory size in the last acquisition prior to a stop or in Single acquisition. In addition, the whole memory is divided in two, where one half is used to store the data of the current acquisition cycle while the other half is used for display processing. The halves are swapped after each acquisition cycle which avoids the need for the acquisition system to "wait" for the processing to finish. Only when the acquisition is stopped and the processing of the previous cycle data has completed, the whole memory is then used for the last acquisition, which is the only time the full amount of memory is actually used.

In Single mode the scope always uses the full memory for that single acquisition, as there is no need to maintain high update rates.

That's all there is. No magic. No special sauce.

So no, MegaZoom really doesn't use all the memory (for acquisition) all the time.

ANd considering the complexity of the different memory allocations it does make sense that the user doesn't get any memory information whatsoever.

There is a very good description of MegaZoom by HP in the HP Jorunal article describing the 54645D (the first MSO):
https://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97a3.pdf (https://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97a3.pdf)

Also, MegaZoom is only really fast at slower sample rates (i.e. 5GSa/s), and with increasing sample rates the performance goes down. Which is sufficient for entry-level and lower midrange bench scopes like the DSO-X Series, but it's unable to deal with the high amount of data a high end scope (which samples at rates in excess of 20GSa/s) produces. But then, waveform rates are really only a thing in the lower end of the scope market, so there's that.

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As to "Some of the engineers I have spoken to agree that Lecroy has some unique analysis features but if the competition would provide something similar they'd swap the Lecroy scopes in a heartbeat", you left out the part where I asked for the reason of why they would swap LeCroy scopes (which ones btw) "in a heartbeat", and I'd really like to hear why this is.
That didn't come up in the conversation and I didn't ask because that would have diverged from the main topic of the conversation too much. I wasn't there to discuss test equipment.

Fair enough, but in that context the reasoning would have been very interesting.

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Since when does NI make bench scopes?
They kind of do if you buy the modules to build a self contained system.

Even if you put NI Digitizers in a NI PXI chassis and use NI LabView, it's still a Digitizer system where one has to write the software for it and not a general purpose bench scope like the SDS2kX+. Aside from costing an insane amount of money.

So I'd say let's just not go there ;)

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It didn't surprise me. I just noted that having an abundance of complex analysis features doesn't make for a good bench scope so Siglent shouldn't follow that example IMHO. So basically already writing what you wrote above.

I don't think any of the points which make the WavePro a poor general purpose scope apply to the SDS2kX+ - or any Siglent scope as of today.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 28, 2020, 04:28:21 pm
Would be interesting to understand, if, using Zoom, you can actually get the highest sample rate together with the highest memory depth?

Maybe I´ve misunderstood this, but I take the last timebase where 200mpt avaible and fed in a 1Mhz sine, then zooming in...

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on January 28, 2020, 04:49:30 pm
Could you add how many points were sampled, at which sample rate, for each of the timebase settings?
EDIT: also, would be interesting if the trigger setup has an influence on the update rate, too. Edge trigger is easy, but how about runts or other, more complex setups?

See below, the trigger thing I can test when second scope was here.

Thanks a lot for that. I understood now what the memory depth setting actually does. The scope always only stores sample points to fill one sweep (timebase x 10 x samplerate = total samples). This equation will always be satisfied. The memory depth setting allows you to limit the amount of memory. So instead of 200Mpts at the, say, 10ms/div timebase, if I choose a limit of 100Mpts, the sample rate will drop to 1GSa/s.

For such an option to make any sense the waveform update rate must be essentially bounded by the memory fill rate. It's a feature to increase the waveform update rate at the expense of temporal resolution.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on January 28, 2020, 04:55:30 pm
Would be interesting to understand, if, using Zoom, you can actually get the highest sample rate together with the highest memory depth?

Maybe I´ve misunderstood this, but I take the last timebase where 200mpt avaible and fed in a 1Mhz sine, then zooming in...
Yes, that's what I was asking. The table you posted already answered the question. Using the zoom this way was the proposed alternative to having the scope obey the memory depth setting and using sample memory for off-screen samples. I was just curious if such a combination existed. In hindsight, why shouldn't it? Siglent aren't a bunch of idiots.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 28, 2020, 05:15:33 pm
Hi,
Test it with even 1sek, no Problem...
Next, 1Mhz in Dot-Mode, 20Mhz in Dot-Mode.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 28, 2020, 05:18:56 pm
Lots of buzz words right there, but funny enough it appears that the most loved (for its easy and quick operation) scope Keysight DSO-X lacks at least the first one (user selectable memory), but still manages to be the most widely sold bench scope Series in its class (the DSOX3k is as abundant as Athlete's Foot).
That is because Keysight uses full memory always but still manages to get high waveform update rates through a clever parallel acquisition system.

No, it doesn't. There is no "clever parallel acquisition system".

which avoids the need for the acquisition system to "wait" for the processing to finish. Only when the acquisition is stopped and the processing of the previous cycle data has completed, the whole memory is then used for the last acquisition, which is the only time the full amount of memory is actually used.

ANd considering the complexity of the different memory allocations it does make sense that the user doesn't get any memory information whatsoever.
Yes it does use all the memory from the user's point of view so what happens under the hood is just semantics. And there is definitely something clever going on. Think about the situation where a new trigger comes before the entire memory is filled in combination with needing to have pre-trigger data as well. The PDF you linked to is a simplified explaination for what is really going on under the hood. But for the user it doesn't really matter.

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Since when does NI make bench scopes?
They kind of do if you buy the modules to build a self contained system.

Even if you put NI Digitizers in a NI PXI chassis and use NI LabView, it's still a Digitizer system where one has to write the software for it and not a general purpose bench scope like the SDS2kX+. Aside from costing an insane amount of money.

So I'd say let's just not go there ;)
Well, you brought up scientific use cases and I disagreed Lecroy didn't have any competition in that market.

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I don't think any of the points which make the WavePro a poor general purpose scope apply to the SDS2kX+ - or any Siglent scope as of today.
Currently the way the memory is managed. I was just curious on why (how Siglent got the idea) the SDS2000X doesn't allow to record outside the screen and much to my surprise (yes, that did surprise me) the Wavepro 7200A works in the same way. Since all other DSOs I have come across so far do allow recording outside the screen without needing work-arounds I take the liberty to assume that this is something Siglent copied from Lecroy.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 29, 2020, 10:22:46 am
Could you add how many points were sampled, at which sample rate, for each of the timebase settings?
EDIT: also, would be interesting if the trigger setup has an influence on the update rate, too. Edge trigger is easy, but how about runts or other, more complex setups?

See below, the trigger thing I can test when second scope was here.

Thanks a lot for that. I understood now what the memory depth setting actually does. The scope always only stores sample points to fill one sweep (timebase x 10 x samplerate = total samples). This equation will always be satisfied. The memory depth setting allows you to limit the amount of memory. So instead of 200Mpts at the, say, 10ms/div timebase, if I choose a limit of 100Mpts, the sample rate will drop to 1GSa/s.

For such an option to make any sense the waveform update rate must be essentially bounded by the memory fill rate. It's a feature to increase the waveform update rate at the expense of temporal resolution.

Obvious but I feel this need still note for some random readers. User selectable memory limit is important - not just for wfm/s speed.

There is this very handy and useful waveform history FIFO. How many last sequential acquisitions it can keep depends highly about memory length of one acquisiton.

Example if we are looking some slowly repeating serial messages we do not mostly need full samplerate but one acquisition we need least as long time as one message last. Then we may want capture many messages to buffer for analyze. 
We can use 10k, 100k, 1M, 10M or 100M when non interleaved mode. Smaller acq length more acquisitions history FIFO can keep.
 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on January 29, 2020, 10:34:52 am
Could you add how many points were sampled, at which sample rate, for each of the timebase settings?
EDIT: also, would be interesting if the trigger setup has an influence on the update rate, too. Edge trigger is easy, but how about runts or other, more complex setups?

See below, the trigger thing I can test when second scope was here.

Thanks a lot for that. I understood now what the memory depth setting actually does. The scope always only stores sample points to fill one sweep (timebase x 10 x samplerate = total samples). This equation will always be satisfied. The memory depth setting allows you to limit the amount of memory. So instead of 200Mpts at the, say, 10ms/div timebase, if I choose a limit of 100Mpts, the sample rate will drop to 1GSa/s.

For such an option to make any sense the waveform update rate must be essentially bounded by the memory fill rate. It's a feature to increase the waveform update rate at the expense of temporal resolution.

Obvious but I feel this need still note for some random readers. User selectable memory limit is important - not just for wfm/s speed.

There is this very handy and useful waveform history FIFO. How many last sequential acquisitions it can keep depends highly about memory length of one acquisiton.

Example if we are looking some slowly repeating serial messages we do not mostly need full samplerate but one acquisition we need least as long time as one message last. Then we may want capture many messages to buffer for analyze. 
We can use 10k, 100k, 1M, 10M or 100M when non interleaved mode. Smaller acq length more acquisitions history FIFO can keep.

Yep, that's a perfectly valid reason. Is there a setting to configure how many captured waveforms to keep in the history? Or is it implicit only, depending on the mem depth limit? That would be a pity. The history buffer seems to be a very useful feature, it should not be hidden away.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on January 29, 2020, 11:38:14 am
Siglent SDS1000X-E scopes does not fully decode all the captured memory shown in screen.  I run some tests and it seems to stop decoding after 2000-3000 packets in SPI (and I think the same limit is applied to other protocols).  When the "BUG" was reported, they fixed it by adding an error message on the screen saying that a decode limit was reached  :palm: If a 5000X or 2000X plus owner can test how decoding works for long captures, it would be very helpful.  If it behaves the same way, it means that there is another limitation that they are not telling about, so I assume if the hidden limit applies to decoding, it can also apply to measurements and other analysis.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/impressive-keysight-1000x-series-(edux1002g-modded)-spi-triggering-rate/msg2412543/#msg2412543 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/impressive-keysight-1000x-series-(edux1002g-modded)-spi-triggering-rate/msg2412543/#msg2412543)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 29, 2020, 12:29:20 pm
In general (not just for Siglent oscilloscopes) there is a limit to the total number of packets which can be decoded. I don't think I have ever seen this limit appear in a datasheet.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 29, 2020, 01:18:21 pm
Could you add how many points were sampled, at which sample rate, for each of the timebase settings?
EDIT: also, would be interesting if the trigger setup has an influence on the update rate, too. Edge trigger is easy, but how about runts or other, more complex setups?

See below, the trigger thing I can test when second scope was here.

Thanks a lot for that. I understood now what the memory depth setting actually does. The scope always only stores sample points to fill one sweep (timebase x 10 x samplerate = total samples). This equation will always be satisfied. The memory depth setting allows you to limit the amount of memory. So instead of 200Mpts at the, say, 10ms/div timebase, if I choose a limit of 100Mpts, the sample rate will drop to 1GSa/s.

For such an option to make any sense the waveform update rate must be essentially bounded by the memory fill rate. It's a feature to increase the waveform update rate at the expense of temporal resolution.

Obvious but I feel this need still note for some random readers. User selectable memory limit is important - not just for wfm/s speed.

There is this very handy and useful waveform history FIFO. How many last sequential acquisitions it can keep depends highly about memory length of one acquisiton.

Example if we are looking some slowly repeating serial messages we do not mostly need full samplerate but one acquisition we need least as long time as one message last. Then we may want capture many messages to buffer for analyze. 
We can use 10k, 100k, 1M, 10M or 100M when non interleaved mode. Smaller acq length more acquisitions history FIFO can keep.

Yep, that's a perfectly valid reason. Is there a setting to configure how many captured waveforms to keep in the history? Or is it implicit only, depending on the mem depth limit? That would be a pity. The history buffer seems to be a very useful feature, it should not be hidden away.

First, Sure it is limited. Siglent say UP TO MAX 90000 wfms. (it is, afaik based to other models,  same amount as in sequence mode). Think one wfm what length is 200Mpts. 90000 these in FIFO.... no, it is of course limited. I do not know if 200M can be more than 1 ( I can not test because I do not have)  But sure 20pts wfms can be max, and  also some longer... example SDS1kX-E can have 700pts wfms  45000 in FIFO and not only one channel in use.


When it is normally running and background working history FIFO it is just FIFO what have only maximal length with current settings. Capturing speed wfms/s is current speed. User can not limit it or other ways set number of FIFO length exept changing mem length etc but it do not show how many places there is. I do not know numbers in SDS2kXPlus but I assume it works roughly similar other Siglent scopes what have this.
If you start scope and example if FIFO amount is 40000 wfms with some slow wfms speed it may take while when it is full and then oldest start dropped out.  If you stop it before it is full you see less history what is possible. Of course every wfm there are time stamped. What ever you change, vertical, time, delay etc it resets FIFO so all in FIFO what user see with history viewer is sure captured with equal settings.

wfms possible in FIFO with current setings can indirectly check. Turn sequence mode on and set max number of segments. Amount is this least in some other models.

Sequence mode is somehow similar but it can trig even down to 2us interval,  there user can set number on segments. As long as it capture these segnments it is in fast mode and do not update display for make maximal speed possible (up to 500000 segments/s speed). If single segment it stop and displau overlaid every captured segment until you do something. In history viewer it show all segments separately and all segments can measure, change interpolation, use math, including FFT and decode etc.  In this mode it do not work like FIFO. It is storage and after it is full it stop or if mode is repeating it reset all and start new turn.  These same wfm measurements and handling can do also in normal mode stored wfms in FIFO.

It can say that this bacround running history is "slow segmented acquisition" and sequence mode is "fast segmented acquisition"...  Both are in same memory and both can view using same history wiever and functionally these wfms can handle equal with many tools in system.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on January 29, 2020, 02:53:13 pm
That is because Keysight uses full memory always but still manages to get high waveform update rates through a clever parallel acquisition system.

No, it doesn't. There is no "clever parallel acquisition system".

which avoids the need for the acquisition system to "wait" for the processing to finish. Only when the acquisition is stopped and the processing of the previous cycle data has completed, the whole memory is then used for the last acquisition, which is the only time the full amount of memory is actually used.

ANd considering the complexity of the different memory allocations it does make sense that the user doesn't get any memory information whatsoever.

Yes it does use all the memory from the user's point of view so what happens under the hood is just semantics.

It's not, it's a technical reality. You can choose to ignore it of course but it's a simple fact. In repetitive mode, only the last acquisition will use the max available memory.

Also, in terms of MegaZoom, the user has no idea how much memory is actually used because the scope shows no information whatsoever.

Quote
And there is definitely something clever going on. Think about the situation where a new trigger comes before the entire memory is filled in combination with needing to have pre-trigger data as well.

So what? Nothing really changes except that some part of the sample memory is used for pre-trigger data (as per horizontal delay setting) and the rest for post trigger data, just with the latter being smaller as some part of the memory is used for pre-trigger.

In repetitive mode, the scope will still only use as much memory as needed to fill the screen, and only use the full available memory for its last acquisition before a stop.

You make it sound as if by some magic MegaZoom uses all the memory (for sampling data of the current acquisition) all the time, but this is, plain and simple, wrong. Also, MegaZoom is not magic, it's actually a pretty simple, although clever, idea to maintain very high update rates - something which was valued by people coming from analog scopes.

Quote
The PDF you linked to is a simplified explaination for what is really going on under the hood. But for the user it doesn't really matter.

It does matter, because it explains how your tool works, and understanding your tool (and its limitations!) is pretty important for any serious work.

But to some extend I agree, what's going on inside MegaZoom doesn't matter all that much because the user doesn't even have to care about memory, as there is no manual control or even information about memory usage. Which has been the idea behind MegaZoom all the time - designed for users who came from analog scopes, to give them an as much analog-like experience as possible.

But that still doesn't mean the scope is always using full memory (for acquisition data of the current acquisition cycle), and a user should really not assume this to be the case.

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Quote
Quote
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Since when does NI make bench scopes?
They kind of do if you buy the modules to build a self contained system.

Even if you put NI Digitizers in a NI PXI chassis and use NI LabView, it's still a Digitizer system where one has to write the software for it and not a general purpose bench scope like the SDS2kX+. Aside from costing an insane amount of money.

So I'd say let's just not go there ;)

Well, you brought up scientific use cases and I disagreed Lecroy didn't have any competition in that market.

Fair enough, but digitizers are not normally used where scopes are, because they are digitizers and not scopes (and even what NI sells as "PXI scopes" are really just PXI digitizers, although with some scope capabilities).

And none of it is competitive with a bench scope for application where a bench scope would suffice. For example, a NI "PXI Scope" which is at least somewhat comparable to the SDS2kX+ in specs (i.e. 8bit ADC, less than 500MHz BW) starts at $7,846 (PXI-5152, 2ch 300MHz, 2GSa/s, 8M/ch). If you need a bench scope then that's a lot of money for the privilege to also have to write your own software (plus to pay for PXI chassis, controller and LabView, which easily lifts this 300Mhz 2ch "scope" over $13k). And it only gets more expensive from there.

Digitizers have their place in specific use cases, for example where very high precision is required (i.e. true 16bit), or where continuous data streams are needed (scopes are generally incapable of streaming data for an extended amount of time). Outside specific niches however, it's real bench scopes hands down.

I told you, just let's not go there ;)

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I don't think any of the points which make the WavePro a poor general purpose scope apply to the SDS2kX+ - or any Siglent scope as of today.
Currently the way the memory is managed. I was just curious on why (how Siglent got the idea) the SDS2000X doesn't allow to record outside the screen and much to my surprise (yes, that did surprise me) the Wavepro 7200A works in the same way. Since all other DSOs I have come across so far do allow recording outside the screen without needing work-arounds I take the liberty to assume that this is something Siglent copied from Lecroy.

Just curious, what settings did you use?

But yes, it's quite normal that in repetitive mode and short time bases a DSO will not use all available sample memory.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 29, 2020, 03:45:40 pm
If a 5000X or 2000X plus owner can test how decoding works for long captures, it would be very helpful.

Im not really into (serial) decoding things, so could be a stupid question:

Like this perhaps ? (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2034745/#msg2034745)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on January 29, 2020, 04:32:17 pm
If a 5000X or 2000X plus owner can test how decoding works for long captures, it would be very helpful.

Im not really into (serial) decoding things, so could be a stupid question:

Like this perhaps ? (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2034745/#msg2034745)
Yes, something like that.  I tested the MSO5000 and at least it decodes everything that is on display, even when you capture over 10,000 SPI packets.  I tested the same on the Siglent SDS1000X-E and it stopped at around 3,000 packets, so I was wondering if anything changed on the 2000X plus.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 29, 2020, 04:51:50 pm
OK, will do it on friday or monday next week.
What I must also test:
Math...When I use math, could I hide the source channel….
Lecroy could, the sds1104X-E could partially afaik.
When they copying lecroy, they should also copy this behaviour.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 29, 2020, 07:07:57 pm
You make it sound as if by some magic MegaZoom uses all the memory (for sampling data of the current acquisition) all the time, but this is, plain and simple, wrong. Also, MegaZoom is not magic, it's actually a pretty simple, although clever, idea to maintain very high update rates - something which was valued by people coming from analog scopes.
I never stated that it uses all memory for each displayed trace. However the Megazoom ASIC can never know what is the last acquisition in advance so in order to have the full memory available from the last trigger it has to have pre-trigger data for the current acquisition cycle. It may be that there are no more triggers after a signal burst. Whatever trigger sequence you throw at it, it will use all of the available memory for the last trace and you can scroll through it until there is a new trigger.

You are also wrong that you can't get memory information on a Keysight scope. It is there but not in plain sight. Probably because the memory depth typically is 1/4th (or even less) of what it says on the badge.
Quote
But yes, it's quite normal that in repetitive mode and short time bases a DSO will not use all available sample memory.
To me it is not normal at all. The Wavepro 7200A is the first DSO (from many) I have owned which doesn't / can't use the memory depth setting I selected. Contrary to other DSOs it uses enough memory to fill the screen and that's it. This behaviour makes it cumbersome to use all the available memory because you need to configure very specific settings (and likely switch back & forth a lot) in order to use all the memory. It is much easier if an oscilloscope just samples the memory depth you selected (and split the memory 50:50 at the centre of the screen). If you need to debug an unknown event (on a tight schedule as usual) having as much information from a single acquisition with least hassle (need to concentrate on the problem at hand; not the tools) is a major time saver.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 29, 2020, 07:52:33 pm
To try to get back on the topic: I overlooked another difference compared to the SDS5000X: the qualified trigger (A->B) is missing in the SDS2000X Plus. That's a bit of a bummer.

Regarding dot mode, the following statement can also be found in the SDS5000X manual:
Quote
There is no difference between the vector and dot display types when the
number of samples of a frame is greater than 1000. When the sample number
is below 1000, there are some differences.

This seems plausible at first since the display for waveforms is probably exactly 1000 pixels (leaving 12dots to the left and right for channel number etc.).
So 1000 pixel and 10 divisions mean 100 pixels per div. So the above statement suggests that visual problems in dot mode are supposed to occur e.g. when decreasing the time per div below 50ns at 2GSa/s:

2GSa/s -> 0.5ns -> 100 pixels = 50ns
1GSa/s ->   1ns -> 100 pixels = 100ns

However, this doesn't consider the vertical step width. E.g. for a PWM signal with steep slopes, it might happen that only very few (or even no) values are captured within the slope. So even when averaging over dozens of frames, the edges will me missing or much too dark in dot mode. So I fear the above statement is a simplification for signals with relatively slow edges (i.e. which don't change by more than one pixel in vertical resolution between two sample points considering the vertical scale).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 29, 2020, 08:15:41 pm
Quote
What I must also test:
Math...When I use math, could I hide the source channel….


No. :(
Except FFT, all math-functions are only visible, when the source-channel is also active - That is disappointing….
They should handle it like lecroy does - hopefully, they can manage this.
It´s the first downer..
On the SDS1104X-E, eres was part of the acquision mode, no need to use extra mathchannel for this.
And:
Take some pics, press "print", always the message appear, "saved" - And then only 2 pics was really saved to the usb-stick.. ???
The update-list is getting longer.. ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on January 29, 2020, 08:53:55 pm
Martin, place your images directly in the forum. It's easier and we can be sure that they wont disappear separately from the msg.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 29, 2020, 09:02:46 pm
Done.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 29, 2020, 10:33:17 pm
A little explanation why I´am disappointed in the math things.
Example eres…
You got a noisy signal and want to filter this for clearer vision.
How annoying is it, when you must have the noisy source and the filtered signal together on the screen...makes no sense.
The lecroy waverunner 3024 can do it, it can even for example filtering clock and data source of say a noisy SPI signal - And you can decode on these maths functions…
And display it only…
Of course, because it´s lecroy and not a B-brand you would say.
But the WS3000 series is equal to the SDS3000 series from siglent…
I expect they fix the thing.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: maginnovision on January 29, 2020, 11:26:38 pm
That is very odd. I suspect they can fix that without too much trouble. It is something that would bother me quite a bit.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 30, 2020, 12:01:03 am
But the WS3000 series is equal to the SDS3000 series from siglent…
While true, the WS3000(Z)/SDS3000(X) is not a rebrand but the result of a cooperation (which is also why the SDS3000(X) is not sold in Western countries), LeCroy most certainly influenced the specs and HW design and the SW is completely done by LeCroy. So it's no surprise that the WS3000(Z)/SDS3000(X) has some features that a normal Siglent scope will (most likely) never have (like WaveScan and LabNotebook). And as discussed several times before, that's also the reason why the SDS5000X is not superior to the SDS3000X in every aspect (also HW/spec wise like bandwidth limitation for low voltage scales).

About Eres: at least judging from the SDS5000X manual/datasheet, Eres is an acquisition option there and not a math function. Actually, it's said clearly that Eres is implemented in hardware on the SDS5000X - this statement is missing for the SDS2000X+. So I would think that Eres really is just a post-processing on the SDS2000X+ which would explain that it's treated as math function.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on January 30, 2020, 07:51:55 am
You make it sound as if by some magic MegaZoom uses all the memory (for sampling data of the current acquisition) all the time, but this is, plain and simple, wrong. Also, MegaZoom is not magic, it's actually a pretty simple, although clever, idea to maintain very high update rates - something which was valued by people coming from analog scopes.

I never stated that it uses all memory for each displayed trace. However the Megazoom ASIC can never know what is the last acquisition in advance

It doesn't. Hence why it only uses the full memory for the last acquisition *after* you press the STOP button (or the one acquisition in Single mode).

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You are also wrong that you can't get memory information on a Keysight scope. It is there but not in plain sight.

Where? I'm really curious as I can't remember  ever seeing any amount of memory mentioned anywhere. Granted, I haven't used an InfiniVision scope for a while (and I don't use entry level scopes very often anyways) but all I can remember seeing is the sample rate. Even when you use Segmented mode it only shows the number of segments but not how large they are.

Having said that, its different for Infiniium scopes with MegaZoom (where you can see and manually set sample memory sizes) but that's not the type of scope we're talking here.

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Probably because the memory depth typically is 1/4th (or even less) of what it says on the badge.

Indeed. Which is why it's probably better the user doesn't see how much memory of the already small memory is actually left ;)

But yes, it's quite normal that in repetitive mode and short time bases a DSO will not use all available sample memory.

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To me it is not normal at all. The Wavepro 7200A is the first DSO (from many) I have owned which doesn't / can't use the memory depth setting I selected.

Which scope works differently then?

Didn't you have one of the early-generation Infiniiums (54800 Series)? Because they do the same :)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on January 30, 2020, 07:58:05 am
Except FFT, all math-functions are only visible, when the source-channel is also active - That is disappointing….
They should handle it like lecroy does - hopefully, they can manage this.

Indeed, that's disappointing, but it might be just another bug and not even intentional.

In any case, that should be easy to fix.

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On the SDS1104X-E, eres was part of the acquision mode, no need to use extra mathchannel for this.

I still have doubts that the "Eres" (note the spelling!) implementation of earlier Siglent scopes was actually true ERES, it may well have been just the normal HiRes acquisition mode.

Quote
The update-list is getting longer.. ;)

Frankly, that's to be expected (things like this, after all, are part of the trade-offs for the lower price), but the good thing is that none of the bugs seem to be real show-stoppers, and if reported back to Siglent fur sure will be fixed quickly.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 30, 2020, 10:02:13 am
Except FFT, all math-functions are only visible, when the source-channel is also active - That is disappointing….

Of course source channel need be active, without data input math can not work.

But is it also so that SDS2kXPlus math source channel trace display need be on.
If so, it can call as mistake in FW. Channel on/off (active/inactive) and channel trace display on/off  are two different things, least in some Siglent scopes with fresh FW.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 30, 2020, 10:05:09 am
To me it is not normal at all. The Wavepro 7200A is the first DSO (from many) I have owned which doesn't / can't use the memory depth setting I selected.
Which scope works differently then?
All of them! Tektronix, Yokogawa (IIRC), GW Instek, Keysight, R&S, etc.
Quote
Didn't you have one of the early-generation Infiniiums (54800 Series)? Because they do the same :)
No. I used to own an Agilent 7104A.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on January 30, 2020, 11:53:33 am
Except FFT, all math-functions are only visible, when the source-channel is also active - That is disappointing….
Of course source channel need be active, without data input math can not work.
Not on the Keysight.  It can do math on deactivated channels.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 30, 2020, 12:24:30 pm
Of course source channel need be active, without data input math can not work.

I know (I had expressed myself wrong) and therefore :

Quote
Not on the Keysight.  It can do math on deactivated channels.

It´s the same - Channel from which you doing the math is hiding, not deactivated (to do math on something, you must have the source- but you musn´t display it  and that´s the thing I want to have it on my siglent too).
This is a useful thing.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on January 30, 2020, 01:24:48 pm
Of course source channel need be active, without data input math can not work.

I know (I had expressed myself wrong) and therefore :

Quote
Not on the Keysight.  It can do math on deactivated channels.

It´s the same - Channel from which you doing the math is hiding, not deactivated (to do math on something, you must have the source- but you musn´t display it  and that´s the thing I want to have it on my siglent too).
This is a useful thing.
From what I recall, the channel LED light is OFF, so it is deactivated from the user perspective... internally it is active, of course
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 30, 2020, 01:59:16 pm
Of course source channel need be active, without data input math can not work.

I know (I had expressed myself wrong) and therefore :

Quote
Not on the Keysight.  It can do math on deactivated channels.

It´s the same - Channel from which you doing the math is hiding, not deactivated (to do math on something, you must have the source- but you musn´t display it  and that´s the thing I want to have it on my siglent too).
This is a useful thing.

Are you telling that you can not turn off trace display (channel still active), even SDS1kX-E can. This is also useful in other cases than math, if we example need use other channel as Ext trigger and do not want this trace displayed just as with conventional Ext trigger can do (backside of scope). This is also important because normal channel used as ext trig its trigger performance and features are much more than analog pathway conventional Ext trig.
Is this trace display on/off missing in this FW now?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 30, 2020, 02:14:31 pm
Quote
Is this trace display on/off missing in this FW now?

Yep, only the math function "FFT" can be displayed exclusive without having the source channel on screen - Do it ( turn off the source channel)with other math functions, math traces disappearing..

Today testing the mouse/keyboard support by using a wireless mouse - And it goes very well, without problems.
Mouse-pointer will automatically disappear when you disconnect mouse from usb port.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 30, 2020, 02:27:25 pm
You make it sound as if by some magic MegaZoom uses all the memory (for sampling data of the current acquisition) all the time, but this is, plain and simple, wrong. Also, MegaZoom is not magic, it's actually a pretty simple, although clever, idea to maintain very high update rates - something which was valued by people coming from analog scopes.

I never stated that it uses all memory for each displayed trace. However the Megazoom ASIC can never know what is the last acquisition in advance

It doesn't. Hence why it only uses the full memory for the last acquisition *after* you press the STOP button (or the one acquisition in Single mode).


May I ask, if think this kind of Megazoom scope, how it is if trigger mode is normal so that it do acquisition only when trigger event happen. Then suddenly there do not exist anymore trig events. Scope stop acquisition and waiting next trig event displaying last acquisition result. Is this last one now there short or long memory (if this miraculous "clever parallel acquisition system" is doing magic things like some may dream)
Next later no anymore trigger events and user press stop.

After then he think he zoom and pan to captured details outside of display as here have discussed around this case lot of... 

I do not want assume anything, so I ask. ;)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 30, 2020, 02:39:40 pm
Quote
Is this trace display on/off missing in this FW now?

Yep, only the math function "FFT" can be displayed exclusive without having the source channel on screen - Do it ( turn off the source channel)with other math functions, math traces disappearing..

So there is trace display off feature but it do not work? If so there is mistake in FW.


But then you tell "(turn off the source channel)".  I am now really confused... turn source channel off  or turn trace display off  if this feature is there available... do you mean "turn off the source channel" mean in your text that you turn off trace (but channel of course stay on).

Turning channel OFF in my mind mean shut channel off what also shut off its trace display.

Turning channel trace display OFF in my mind mean leaving channel working background but shut off its trace display from TFT. 
This is how it works in some other Siglent and for this they have separate feature in menu where this trace display can set on or off without shutting channel off.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 30, 2020, 02:55:20 pm
Quote
I am now really confused.

Me too.  ;)
I can tell you what I'm used to with the lecroy scopes:
Signal on e.g. channel one, channel one knob is lightning and trace was visible on the screen.
You are going to do a math function, choose the source to channel 1 and the function will be displayed on the screen too.
Now I only want to have this math trace on the screen, so I press the channel one knob, knob lightning is off, channel one trace on the screen is off too, math trace of channel one is still visible.

This is what I mean, it SEEMS that channel one is off because it´s not visible on the screen and knob, but still math trace will be displayed.

Quote
So there is trace display off feature but it do not work?


The FFT function is somekind of a "stand alone" feature.
You can choose to display it with the source, with the source in split screen or only the FFT, this is called "exclusive".




Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 30, 2020, 03:14:11 pm
You make it sound as if by some magic MegaZoom uses all the memory (for sampling data of the current acquisition) all the time, but this is, plain and simple, wrong. Also, MegaZoom is not magic, it's actually a pretty simple, although clever, idea to maintain very high update rates - something which was valued by people coming from analog scopes.
I never stated that it uses all memory for each displayed trace. However the Megazoom ASIC can never know what is the last acquisition in advance

It doesn't. Hence why it only uses the full memory for the last acquisition *after* you press the STOP button (or the one acquisition in Single mode).


May I ask, if think this kind of Megazoom scope, how it is if trigger mode is normal so that it do acquisition only when trigger event happen. Then suddenly there do not exist anymore trig events. Scope stop acquisition and waiting next trig event displaying last acquisition result. Is this last one now there short or long memory
Long memory. One of my oscilloscope use cases is not even to press stop before scrolling left & right but staying in normal mode. Press as least buttons as possible.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 30, 2020, 09:14:12 pm
About Eres: at least judging from the SDS5000X manual/datasheet, Eres is an acquisition option there and not a math function. Actually, it's said clearly that Eres is implemented in hardware on the SDS5000X - this statement is missing for the SDS2000X+. So I would think that Eres really is just a post-processing on the SDS2000X+ which would explain that it's treated as math function.

Read it too and interesting, on SDS1104X-E it is in the same way implemented.
While studying the SDS5000 manual, a hi-res mode is missed there - The SDS 2000X-plus ( god I hate the designation) got this 8bit/10bit thing, it could be considered as a hi-res mode, I guess.
On the other hand, an average mode is missed on the SDS2000X-plus.
List is getting longer.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on January 30, 2020, 09:17:03 pm
About Eres: at least judging from the SDS5000X manual/datasheet, Eres is an acquisition option there and not a math function. Actually, it's said clearly that Eres is implemented in hardware on the SDS5000X - this statement is missing for the SDS2000X+. So I would think that Eres really is just a post-processing on the SDS2000X+ which would explain that it's treated as math function.

Read it too and interesting, on SDS1104X-E it is in the same way implemented.
While studying the SDS5000 manual, a hi-res mode is missed there - The SDS 2000X-plus ( god I hate the designation) got this 8bit/10bit thing, it could be considered as a hi-res mode, I guess.
On the other hand, an average mode is missed on the SDS2000X-plus.
List is getting longer.
Do you mean it does not have average acquisition mode?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 30, 2020, 09:27:22 pm
Hi,

Yep, it doesnt have an average mode - I´m sure it would be "forgotten" and will be fixed, because nearly every scope on the market got it.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 30, 2020, 09:32:07 pm
Isn't there an average mode as a math function in the SDS2000X+? If I had to make a bet right now I'd bet there is. You might be able to stack the average function on top of another math trace (for example FFT) so you can average FFT.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on January 30, 2020, 09:35:39 pm
Isn't there an average mode as a math function in the SDS2000X+? If I had to make a bet right now I'd bet there is. You might be able to stack the average function on top of another math trace (for example FFT) so you can average FFT.
Now, that would be nifty!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 30, 2020, 09:42:48 pm
@nctnico:

You´re right, they put the average function in math like the eres.

Quote
You might be able to stack the average function on top of another math trace

Manual says nothing about the possible sources for math, must check this directly, if there is a math on math function avaible.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 30, 2020, 09:58:26 pm
Yep, math on math is possible - But not in every case…

You can do a FFT of math function one, but you can´t use the average function on FFT.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 30, 2020, 10:08:28 pm
But is there a way to average FFT? And while we are at it: FFT min hold / max hold?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on January 30, 2020, 10:13:01 pm
Again, the SDS5000X manual/datasheet emphasizes that averaging and Eres are done in hardware (supposedly by the FPGA) while this statement is missing for the SDS2000X+. And obviously a post-capture math function is fundamentally different from a a filter that is performed before actually writing the samples into memory.
Given that the SDS2000X+ was released after the SDS5000X, omitting the HW support for averaging/Eres seems to be a deliberate choice and not a bug or mistake. Maybe this is a result of using a less capable FPGA, but honestly I would assume this (and other things like the missing qualified trigger) could be more of a way of differentiation between the SDS2000X+ and the SDS5000X
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 30, 2020, 10:15:19 pm
But is there a way to average FFT? And while we are at it: FFT min hold / max hold?

Yes...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 30, 2020, 10:19:34 pm
Maybe this is a result of using a less capable FPGA, but honestly I would assume this (and other things like the missing qualified trigger) could be more of a way of differentiation between the SDS2000X+ and the SDS5000X

Makes sense, why spend money for the SDS5000 when you could get it almost all with the SDS2000X+....

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Someone on January 31, 2020, 12:07:11 am
You make it sound as if by some magic MegaZoom uses all the memory (for sampling data of the current acquisition) all the time, but this is, plain and simple, wrong. Also, MegaZoom is not magic, it's actually a pretty simple, although clever, idea to maintain very high update rates - something which was valued by people coming from analog scopes.
I never stated that it uses all memory for each displayed trace. However the Megazoom ASIC can never know what is the last acquisition in advance
It doesn't. Hence why it only uses the full memory for the last acquisition *after* you press the STOP button (or the one acquisition in Single mode).
May I ask, if think this kind of Megazoom scope, how it is if trigger mode is normal so that it do acquisition only when trigger event happen. Then suddenly there do not exist anymore trig events. Scope stop acquisition and waiting next trig event displaying last acquisition result. Is this last one now there short or long memory (if this miraculous "clever parallel acquisition system" is doing magic things like some may dream)
Next later no anymore trigger events and user press stop.

After then he think he zoom and pan to captured details outside of display as here have discussed around this case lot of... 

I do not want assume anything, so I ask. ;)
The simple answer, with infrequent triggers the last capture in run mode will be "short".

In run mode the acquisition memory depth is more or less the visible screen multiplied by the sample rate (automatically adjusted for maximum sample rate at all times).
In single mode the acquisition memory depth is the maximum available, and may extend outside the visible screen.

The trick is there is a short window of a fraction of a second after pressing stop (from run mode) when the scope will automatically/invisibly trigger a new single capture and show that instead.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 31, 2020, 12:16:54 am
The trick is there is a short window of a fraction of a second after pressing stop (from run mode) when the scope will automatically/invisibly trigger a new single capture and show that instead.
Buzzzz. Wrong answer!!!

Get a Keysight Megazoom scope and try it yourself. Send in a signal which is a burst and you'll see you get the full memory length for the last trigger event without pressing stop. FFS I owned one so I'm pretty damn sure how it works.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Someone on January 31, 2020, 12:53:27 am
The trick is there is a short window of a fraction of a second after pressing stop (from run mode) when the scope will automatically/invisibly trigger a new single capture and show that instead.
Buzzzz. Wrong answer!!!

Get a Keysight Megazoom scope and try it yourself. Send in a signal which is a burst and you'll see you get the full memory length for the last trigger event. FFS I owned one so I'm pretty damn sure how it works.
Have you tried it with a variety of their scopes? What I described is exactly what happens on several different models of their megazoom IV scopes, I know as I have tested it and confirmed this behaviour across different models. Just to humour you tried it again with a pulse burst, no different.

When switching from run to stopped, it doesn't have any captured acquisition data around the visible window, unless another trigger arrives in the hundred or so ms after stopped was pressed.

Different scopes have different memory management and ways of operating, stop the presses!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 31, 2020, 12:57:27 am
Did you test with a short time/div? Otherwise there will be no data outside the screen because there isn't any data. Or simply zoom in?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Someone on January 31, 2020, 01:14:17 am
Did you test with a short time/div? Otherwise there will be no data outside the screen because there isn't any data. Or simply zoom in?
Unlike you I'm not trying to be obtuse. The description and test were in reply to the polite and considered question by rf-loop. There are all sorts of minor details and specifics that could make a long winded report, perhaps you would like to undertake that or pay someone to compile it for you?

Of course this was under the situation of a short visible window where the available memory depth exceeded the visible span, the question and answer are clear enough but you come in with FUD and your simply incorrect accusations.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 31, 2020, 01:24:35 am
Well, the Agilent 7104A I owned had the Megazoom III ASIC and not the IV so there may be (very unexpected) differences. Unfortunately I no longer have the 7104A to test but I'm 99.9% sure it works the way I described.

Edit: I dug around in some manuals. It seems the Keysight 3000X series limits the memory to the size of the screen by default. However there seems to be a 'Digitizer mode' which allows to set the memory to a defined length at the cost of losing various functions. I have not found such a limitation in the manual for the Agilent 7104A.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 31, 2020, 05:07:20 am
Quote from: Martin72 link=topic=218238.msg2894912#msg2894912
Now I only want to have this math trace on the screen, so I press the channel one knob, knob lightning is off, channel one trace on the screen is off too, math trace of channel one is still visible.

May I ask why you use channel one knob for shut off channel one trace display. Channel one knob is for on/off whole channel (and its displayed trace).

In other Siglent model (example SDS1x04X-E) there is menu setting where can find trace display on/off what leave channel normally working but can turn off ONLY trace display, not affect at all how this channel is still fully working in background only its trace display light  off.
If this function is missing in SDS2kXPlus FW it must be mistakenly forgotten. But  if so... now need wait bit more because Siglent office holiday time is extended now least one week more so all delays now more. How all continue, next week give more information about 2019-nCoV case here in China.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 31, 2020, 11:03:48 am
Quote
May I ask why you use channel one knob for shut off channel one trace display

As I explained before, I'm used to doing it this way on lecroy scopes.
Interesting:
The SDS2000X+ is the only series, where averaging and eres are in the math menu.
All other siglents, 1000/2000/5000, got them in the acquisition setup.
Why doing this different by the 2000X+
Edit:

Quote
In other Siglent model (example SDS1x04X-E) there is menu setting where can find trace display on/off

And it seems, it´s the only model.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on January 31, 2020, 12:07:48 pm
Quote
May I ask why you use channel one knob for shut off channel one trace display

As I explained before, I'm used to doing it this way on lecroy scopes.
Interesting:
The SDS2000X+ is the only series, where averaging and eres are in the math menu.
All other siglents, 1000/2000/5000, got them in the acquisition setup.
Why doing this different by the 2000X+
Edit:

Quote
In other Siglent model (example SDS1x04X-E) there is menu setting where can find trace display on/off

And it seems, it´s the only model.
Trace can shut off also in SDS1x02X-E models. Feature added in last FW (1.3.26)
Also I think it was not originally in 4 channel models but I can not find what time it was added.

Lack of this feature need complain Siglent. Although it is not most urgent.

Eres
Because real ERES is math function. Is it also so that it do not destroy original ADC data. (lets hope it is real ERES or least some main things, non destructive)

Please read what @Wuerstchenhund have said about ERES.

It is very different what is example some oscilloscopes HiRes acquisition is what use destructive hardware boxcar average. I do not know how much just SDS2kXPlus ERES works like LeCroy explained ERES but just because this change to math, perhaps more close LeCroy than other models.


http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/appnotes/differences_between_eres_and_hires.pdf (http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/appnotes/differences_between_eres_and_hires.pdf)

http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/appnotes/an_006a.pdf (http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/appnotes/an_006a.pdf)


Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on January 31, 2020, 05:57:08 pm
Yes well a screenshot of a math trace from a hidden trace was posted early in this thread.
There is little reason to imagine this feature hasn’t made it to product release.
Post 34 IIRC
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: maginnovision on January 31, 2020, 06:32:51 pm
Other than FFT which was already confirmed I didn't see math without source trace displayed.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on January 31, 2020, 09:27:33 pm
Me too.

Here´s the first "list" of wanted updates for the sds2000x+:

- Adding the possibility of hiding channel traces for displaying math/decode functions only

- Adding trigger function "qualifying trigger A B"

- Labeling the F1 and F2 "channels" with the actual math function

- Fixing a performance problem when using math and memorydepth is above 20kpts

- Adding trigger mode "Alternate" if possible

Oh...this was it at all - Until now..

Another thing:

At home I got a lack of testsignals, e.g. serial decoding signals or signals with runts/glitchings.
So I think about to buy the  siglent demo board (https://www.welectron.com/Siglent-STB-3-Demo-Board), for having some basic test signals at home, not only for my actual scope.
What are your thoughts on this ?
It´s price doesn´t matter to me, I´m going to sell some of my not longer used test things, so it would cost me the half or less.






Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on January 31, 2020, 09:59:48 pm
Money is likely better spend on a USB logic analyser / pattern generator in order to  make patterns. Ika logic SQ100 seems to be quite cheap but I have no idea on the quality and usefullness of their software.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on January 31, 2020, 10:25:44 pm
I don't think it is any worth to buy a demo board when you can accomplish the same with an STM32 nucleo board or any Arduino compatible
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on February 01, 2020, 03:38:19 am

- Adding trigger mode "Alternate" if possible


This is, how I can say it enough nicely... yes of course we can write to SantaClaus many kind of wishes... and so on.

But honestly, if we want in 4 channel scope true full Quad independent timebase Quad independent trigger "Alternate"  I believe simply, this gift do not come never to any already purchased Siglent 4 channel scope. And I believe also that not any future models... If drop independent timebase and think only single timebase individual triggers Alternate, not so hopeless wish technically... but, forecasting is difficult - especially to predict the future.

If 2 channel is enough and so that both have own memory and own ADC chip as is case when SDS2k works in interleaved mode, perhaps independent Alt is bit more easy..
 
Least I know some use for this feature but also can live without. For dedicated special needs mostly there is other solutions.

It is fun but Siglent have this kind of scope what have dual timebase alternate mode.
Old SDS1000CML/CNL. 
These have. Both channels can drive with independent t/div and both channels have also individual triggers. So it can capture and display very very different signals simultaneously. One weak point is that both channels have same samplerate what is limiting factor for extremely different speed signals. Naturally if other channel have 1Hz signal and other have 100kHz signal also this 100kHz channel wait until 1Hz waveform is captured and then it capture this 100kHz signal... and continue alternatively, just like old single beam analog scope  ALT works. (True dual beam analog scopes is Very different story, example Tek's 7044 where other trace trig do not need wait other...) Also both channels have fully independent trigger settings as also independent timebases (iIrr, if I remember right) and even both may have dual timebase, but these was old time analog oscilloscopes RollsRoyces (including price).

After old SDS1000 series various scopes it is not implemented in any other Siglent scopes what is sold as Siglent brand as far as I know.
Why exactly, I have no idea.

I hope Siglent  take seriously this Alt feature,  demand for this pops up repeatedly. It is not just sales brochure checkbox feature. It need be, performance and features (how does it work) of this mode is then other question.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 01, 2020, 01:08:37 pm
Quote
This is, how I can say it enough nicely…

That´s very kind from you. ;)
It´s indeed a wish for christmas, not important you can "simulate" it with other trigger functions.
Unlike more important are the channel hiding thing and the lost of performance when using math and memorydepth is greater than 20k.
This siglent is brandnew (it seems to me, I´m the only one who got it - Or I bought the only part in stock, after my buy it wasn´t avaible  :D ), let´s wait for response from siglent.
By the way, I wrote to siglent eu support a couple of days ago.
No answer.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on February 01, 2020, 02:37:37 pm
Quote from: Martin72 link=topic=218238.msg2897756#msg2897756
By the way, I wrote to siglent eu support a couple of days ago.
No answer.

Perhaps these kind of things are not very urgent and are forwarded to engineers in China who all are holiday and after then extended holiday due to this exceptional situation.

This is partially second hand info but... Also even when Siglent European office is in Germany also there China new year festival and holiday time affect to some things. And now more due to severe virus epidemic in China. Originally Siglent HQ (and afaik also factory) in Shenzhen start after holidays 3.2.  but due to 2019-nCoV epidemic here in China this time table is obsolete. At this time HQ is designed to return and start 10.2. (and as we know situation here in China it may change or perhaps it do not start with full power, depending how it affect peoples traveling back to work and other things related to mainland China virus epidemic. Main thing is now do all for attenuate this virus spreading and take care that average infection spreading system "gain" goes as fast as possible well under 1 so that epidemic suffocates. This goes highly over normal business short time needs.)

This exceptional situation may affect many things and sure it affect less urgent things highly although sales and repair service in European office works as normally as possible.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 01, 2020, 02:46:12 pm
Sure, actually they´re much more important problems and it´s understood, that this here is maximum unimportant thing against.
But.. ;)
A short "we´ve received your message" ( most common automatic reply)or "we´ve forwarding this" would be nice, especially when they are in germany.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 01, 2020, 09:52:13 pm
Money is likely better spend on a USB logic analyser / pattern generator in order to  make patterns. Ika logic SQ100 seems to be quite cheap but I have no idea on the quality and usefullness of their software.

I had a look on it and downloaded/run the software - Remembers me of the bitscope thing.
I think, I would buy the demo board instead, when I can refinance it by selling no longer used things.
Otherwise not.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on February 01, 2020, 11:27:07 pm
I don't see much practical use in a demo board which generates pre-defined signals. First of all you can't use it as a tool and secondly it is very unlikely to uncover odd behaviour of your oscilloscope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 02, 2020, 07:24:33 am

So I think about to buy the  siglent demo board (https://www.welectron.com/Siglent-STB-3-Demo-Board), for having some basic test signals at home, not only for my actual scope.
What are your thoughts on this ?
It´s price doesn´t matter to me, I´m going to sell some of my not longer used test things, so it would cost me the half or less.
Have you studied the manual ?
https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/stb-3/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/stb-3/)

It produces more than just a few 'ordinary' signals some of which will test your abilities to get stable triggering.
As you fiddle with a few brands it might be a useful tool to compare capabilities.
I've had one for a good few years and use it often when demonstrating DSO's to customer when they call to collect or buy.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 02, 2020, 11:06:53 am
I´ve ordered this thing now.
Welectron gives you 45 days for testing.. ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on February 02, 2020, 02:38:46 pm

So I think about to buy the  siglent demo board (https://www.welectron.com/Siglent-STB-3-Demo-Board), for having some basic test signals at home, not only for my actual scope.
What are your thoughts on this ?
It´s price doesn´t matter to me, I´m going to sell some of my not longer used test things, so it would cost me the half or less.
Have you studied the manual ?
https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/stb-3/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/stb-3/)

It produces more than just a few 'ordinary' signals some of which will test your abilities to get stable triggering.
As you fiddle with a few brands it might be a useful tool to compare capabilities.
I've had one for a good few years and use it often when demonstrating DSO's to customer when they call to collect or buy.
For a distributor, it makes sense to have one.  For the end user, no thank you
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 02, 2020, 07:49:55 pm
To say 90% you´re right.
The build in waveforms could be also generated with other equipment you use frequentlier than this board.
Also the decoding signals.
But actually I don´t have an pattern generator or a good frequencygenerator, so this board will help me at the moment.
And the "true price" (after selling some parts) for me is cheap.
So it´s ok in my case, others shouldn´t buy it for the reason you named.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 2N3055 on February 02, 2020, 08:16:59 pm

So I think about to buy the  siglent demo board (https://www.welectron.com/Siglent-STB-3-Demo-Board), for having some basic test signals at home, not only for my actual scope.
What are your thoughts on this ?
It´s price doesn´t matter to me, I´m going to sell some of my not longer used test things, so it would cost me the half or less.
Have you studied the manual ?
https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/stb-3/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/stb-3/)

It produces more than just a few 'ordinary' signals some of which will test your abilities to get stable triggering.
As you fiddle with a few brands it might be a useful tool to compare capabilities.
I've had one for a good few years and use it often when demonstrating DSO's to customer when they call to collect or buy.
For a distributor, it makes sense to have one.  For the end user, no thank you

I would love to have one, but it is too expensive.... If it were 30-50€, I would get one right away.
At 225 € it is almost the price of the cheapest scope... So no thanks...

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 02, 2020, 09:10:56 pm
And the "true price" (after selling some parts) for me is cheap.
So it´s ok in my case ...
Reasoning of a true test equipment addict ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 02, 2020, 09:26:30 pm
It has the same right to exist like the leo pulse -gen... ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 04, 2020, 09:20:21 pm
...But it got more functions.
Today the board has arrived, looks nice, the downloadable manual leave questions open.
But with this, I can test the decoder functions without taken the scope at work.
And this what I´ll do in the next time because the whole decoding functions of the sds2104X+ wasn´t touched until now.




Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 04, 2020, 10:59:42 pm
...But it got more functions.
Today the board has arrived, looks nice, the downloadable manual leave questions open.
But with this, I can test the decoder functions without taken the scope at work.
And this what I´ll do in the next time because the whole decoding functions of the sds2104X+ wasn´t touched until now.
Yes the manual doesn't go through all its capabilities as some are self explanatory.
It will take a few hours to get to fully know it and the few configurable outputs.

I fitted 3mm stainless dome nuts to the threaded legs to minimize scratching of delicate surfaces you might use it on however if you have nylon dome nuts they would be even better.

A nice option if Siglent were to consider it is to incorporate the current probe deskew PCB into the STB3 and then have a really useful accessory in a single PCB.
https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/df2001a/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/df2001a/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 06, 2020, 08:49:34 pm
Today I got for the first time the probes in my hands, no joke.. ;)
Hm-hm...
Looks a little bit cheap, but the funniest thing:
The scope got auto-sensing inputs, but the delivered probes couldn´t be sensed….A little bit disappointing. :(
They got 200Mhz bandwith, maybe there will be better probes delivered with the 350Mhz model.
Meanwhile I´ve played around with the demoboard:

Quote
It will take a few hours to get to fully know it and the few configurable outputs.

I´m afraid this is the truth. ::)
I couldn´t decode the spi signal, must spend more time with it - For 200 bucks, a little more explanation should be expected.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 06, 2020, 09:19:09 pm
Today I got for the first time the probes in my hands, no joke.. ;)
Hm-hm...
Looks a little bit cheap, but the funniest thing:
The scope got auto-sensing inputs, but the delivered probes couldn´t be sensed….A little bit disappointing. :(
They got 200Mhz bandwith, maybe there will be better probes delivered with the 350Mhz model.
Err well, exactly what model are the probes and if 10x/1x switchable they won't have autosense capabilities. Period.
Only fixed attenuation probes have autosense however as you bought the cheapest model it comes with PP510 or PP215 1x/10x switchable probes whereas SDS2354X+ has 10x fixed autosense probes.
$10/$27 vs $60 ea.
https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/probes/passive-probes/

Quote
Meanwhile I´ve played around with the demoboard:

Quote
It will take a few hours to get to fully know it and the few configurable outputs.

I´m afraid this is the truth. ::)
I couldn´t decode the spi signal, must spend more time with it - For 200 bucks, a little more explanation should be expected.
It presumes you know how to dedicate the bus and clock signals to channels and how to configure them and set the thresholds. You'll work it out.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 06, 2020, 09:31:41 pm
Hi,
We use spi signals on our control electronics for a couple of years... ;)

Quote
as you bought the cheapest model

Oh sorry, my fault..

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 06, 2020, 09:35:06 pm
Still, what kind of crap is it to sell a scope with probes that can't be automatically detected???
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on February 06, 2020, 09:49:40 pm
Still, what kind of crap is it to sell a scope with probes that can't be automatically detected???
Have you ever seen 1x/10x switchable probes which can be detected by an oscilloscope? Especially the cheap probes?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 06, 2020, 10:04:39 pm
I think, this is not the point.
Siglent delivered to the 1400 bucks model the cheapest probes you can get - sure they are no auto-sensing ones.
But...
If I spend nearly 3-times more than a cheap 4-ch scope from siglent (1104X-E), shouldn´t I expect to get better probes with it ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on February 06, 2020, 10:16:26 pm
Then again... I'd expect a professional user already has good probes. It is rare for me to use the probes which come with an oscilloscope. Usually the ones included are there as a courtesy to get going.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 06, 2020, 10:21:20 pm
Still, what kind of crap is it to sell a scope with probes that can't be automatically detected???
So pray tell us which fixed attenuation autosense probes might a customer want ?
1x, 10x, 20x, 50x, 100x or 1000x ?

Customers that know what they want always ask what's supplied before purchasing.
I think, this is not the point.
Siglent delivered to the 1400 bucks model the cheapest probes you can get - sure they are no auto-sensing ones.
But...
If I spend nearly 3-times more than a cheap 4-ch scope from siglent (1104X-E), shouldn´t I expect to get better probes with it ?

Probes supplied have always matched the BW of the scope....not the hacked BW.
SDS2000X was no different and it had autosense inputs as does SDS5000X yet they are supplied with 500 MHz 10x probes @ $229 ea however it's totally in another class of equipment.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 06, 2020, 10:24:52 pm
Quote
It is rare for me to use the probes which come with an oscilloscope

Lucky one.

By the way, the probes Lecroy ships with e.g. the WR9054 we got, costs 700€ when you buy them separate.
EACH....

Quote
I'd expect a professional user already has good probes.

Maybe this is the point, professional vs hobbyists.
You can´t expect that a hobbyist buy the same price for probes as he payed for the scope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 06, 2020, 10:28:40 pm
So pray tell us which fixed attenuation autosense probes might a customer want ?
1x, 10x, 20x, 50x, 100x or 1000x ?
This is a ridiculous discussion. Every somewhat respectable scope comes with 1:10 autosense probes by default. If Siglent chooses to be cheap, don't blame this on the customer.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on February 06, 2020, 11:23:30 pm
Why? I really like to have 1x / 10x switchable probes because the 1x setting is nice to look at small signals. And autosense doesn't make much sense if you are only going to use 10x probes anyway. You can configure the default to be 10x probes. Things get different if you are using probes which have something like an I2C eeprom in them with calibration constants and/or can let the oscilloscope know what kind of attenuation and unit (voltage, current, power, etc) the probe measures.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 06, 2020, 11:26:10 pm
So pray tell us which fixed attenuation autosense probes might a customer want ?
1x, 10x, 20x, 50x, 100x or 1000x ?
This is a ridiculous discussion. Every somewhat respectable scope comes with 1:10 autosense probes by default. If Siglent chooses to be cheap, don't blame this on the customer.
Low BW models are targeting a price point pure and simple which is no different to any other brand.
The customer has choice to spec their scope as they wish.

The manufacture cannot know the end use nor if the scope is to have a BW upgrade at some later time.
Let's look at the additional costs for this upper entry level DSO.
PP510 100 MHz 1x/10x $10ea
PP215 200 MHz 1x/10x $27ea
SP2030A 300 MHz 10x autosense $59ea
SP3050A 500 MHz 10x autosense $229ea

Take your pick and it will affect the base purchase price but also remember with full BW upgrades 2 channels might require two 500 MHz probes.
The right probe option to suit all customers is not straightforward and even the most logical choice SP2030A x four adds a further $200 to the base price of the DSO.
Will everyone that buys a low BW SDS2kX+ be content to fork out an additional $200 and be limited to 10x usage ?  :-//

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on February 07, 2020, 03:34:50 am
I understand Martin72's point.  The SDS2000X plus is not targeted for the hobbyist, I consider it to be entry level professional.  Siglent should include the 300MHz probes, minimum.  It does not make any sense to include $27 (probably $15 cost for Siglent) probes in a $1300 scope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 07, 2020, 04:18:53 am
Round and round and round we go.  ::)

Restrict the scopes sensitivity with a 10x autosense probe, nah doesn't make sense.
500uV/div sensitivity is a feature, why limit yourself to 5mV/div ?  :-//

Siglent can provide a switchable 300 MHz 1x/10x probe for $55ea.
https://siglentna.com/product/pp430-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probe/

Or a 300 MHz 10x autosense one for $59ea.
https://siglentna.com/product/sp2030a-auto-sense-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/

Both compact probes with compensation adjustments in the BNC connector.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on February 07, 2020, 04:49:02 am
What is the BW limit on a 1x/10x probe in 1x mode?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on February 07, 2020, 05:41:52 am
What is the BW limit on a 1x/10x probe in 1x mode?

Without details about every model. 1x roughly around 5 -12MHz when we are talking these usual 1x/10x selectable cheap probes. Input capacitance is there "enormous".
But yes, 1x can also use as LPF.  Of course probes can also use as LPF what cutoff can easy set as need as explained with cheap method cutoff can easy adjust (one example in BodePlot II thread if I remember right).
Good quality nomal fixed 1x probes are bit different.
Then also sidenote what everyone of course know. Probes BW's are as standard specified for 25 ohm source impedance.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: rf-loop on February 07, 2020, 05:50:18 am
Round and round and round we go.  ::)

Restrict the scopes sensitivity with a 10x autosense probe, nah doesn't make sense.
500uV/div sensitivity is a feature, why limit yourself to 5mV/div ?  :-//

Siglent can provide a switchable 300 MHz 1x/10x probe for $55ea.
https://siglentna.com/product/pp430-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probe/

Or a 300 MHz 10x autosense one for $59ea.
https://siglentna.com/product/sp2030a-auto-sense-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/

Both compact probes with compensation adjustments in the BNC connector.

Full BW 500uV/div, 1M scope input port impedance,  and need full BW 1x probe. Bit challenging is it... if we talk passive probes. Least not available from Siglent, not even nearly but something over 5MHz can... bit far away from full 500MHz BW 500uV/div...

Why limit to well under 10MHz...  (something for, why limit to 5mV/div)  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 2N3055 on February 07, 2020, 07:43:26 am
What is the BW limit on a 1x/10x probe in 1x mode?

On passive probe, pretty much 1/10th of the bandwidth of 1/10 probe, or worse.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on February 07, 2020, 10:14:00 am
What is the BW limit on a 1x/10x probe in 1x mode?
That is a tricky question. In 1x mode the probe will load the circuit with a much higher capacitance so when measured with a 25 Ohm source (*) the bandwidth will appear much lower. However when hooked to a low impedance source (say a beefy MOSFET gate driver) it won't matter much.

* Which is the standard method to measure probe bandwidth.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on February 07, 2020, 10:19:06 am
What is the BW limit on a 1x/10x probe in 1x mode?
That is a tricky question. In 1x mode the probe will load the circuit with a much higher capacitance so when measured with a 25 Ohm source (*) the bandwidth will appear much lower. However when hooked to a low impedance source (say a beefy MOSFET gate driver) it won't matter much.

* Which is the standard method to measure probe bandwidth.

However, the gate driver will now have to charge both the gate capacity and the considerable capacity of the probe. So, "something" will change.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on February 07, 2020, 10:22:37 am
That is true with any measurement you make. In order to observe something you'll have to disturb it. A reasonable power MOSFET will have a capacitance in the several nf range so the relative change isn't that big.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 07, 2020, 09:37:00 pm
Or a 300 MHz 10x autosense one for $59ea.
https://siglentna.com/product/sp2030a-auto-sense-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/

This what I expect to have it here in the box... :(
In the box of a lecroy waverunner were 4 probes, each of them costs appx 700€ when you buy them separately.
4pcs 2800€, Waverunner cost 13000€, makes 21.5% of the Price.
SDS2104X+ cost 1400€....21.5% from this would be 300€ - Divided through 4, bingo...where are my sp2030a probes ?!  ;)
Anyway, actually I got much more important "problems".
Trying everything, I couldn´t decode the spi signal from the stb-3 board on my sds2104x+.
Maybe I´m too dumb for this…. ::)



Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 07, 2020, 10:00:56 pm
Trying everything, I couldn´t decode the spi signal from the stb-3 board on my sds2104x+.
Maybe I´m too dumb for this…. ::)
Screenshots of settings please......no not a photo but screenshots !

Have you toggled the STB3 settings to SPI output ?
Probes properly compensated if using them in 10x mode ?

I only have SDS5kX here ATM but the UI is very similar so maybe I can walk you through this.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on February 07, 2020, 10:09:05 pm
Or a 300 MHz 10x autosense one for $59ea.
https://siglentna.com/product/sp2030a-auto-sense-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/ (https://siglentna.com/product/sp2030a-auto-sense-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/)
This what I expect to have it here in the box... :(
In the box of a lecroy waverunner were 4 probes, each of them costs appx 700€ when you buy them separately.
4pcs 2800€, Waverunner cost 13000€, makes 21.5% of the Price.
700 euro for a simple passive probe is insanely overpriced. I guess you mean the Lecroy PP022. A probe from PMK with identical specs costs 195 euro. https://www.datatec.de/PMK-855-711-A01-Tastkoepfe-Passiv (https://www.datatec.de/PMK-855-711-A01-Tastkoepfe-Passiv) Lecroy pays at most 70 euro in bulk.


@Tautech: in this case a photo of the test setup would be helpful to see how everything is connected.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 07, 2020, 10:15:35 pm
Hi,

Quote
Have you toggled the STB3 settings to SPI output ?

Of course and I´ve followed the settings mentioned in the stb-3 manual as close as possible ( unfortunately, you couldn´t do much settings on the sds2000x+).
Normally, when you doing something wrong, senseless values will be displaying until you did the right settings.
But here in this case, I get nothing, not a single character.

Quote
Probes properly compensated if using them in 10x mode ?

Yepp, this was the first thing I´ve done.
BTW, you couldn´t get a stable signal too, it´s always jittering around, trying spi-trigger or normal edge type anyway.
Trying other formats, I2C and UART, couldn´t decode it too.
But this could be a failure I´ve done.
Quote
Screenshots of settings please.

Sure, at the weekend I guess...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 07, 2020, 10:25:41 pm
BTW, you couldn´t get a stable signal too, it´s always jittering around, trying spi-trigger or normal edge type anyway.
Use a falling edge trigger as the idle state of a buss is typically high. (active low)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 07, 2020, 10:58:56 pm
BTW, you couldn´t get a stable signal too, it´s always jittering around, trying spi-trigger or normal edge type anyway.
Use a falling edge trigger as the idle state of a buss is typically high. (active low)
Oh and I forgot, make sure Trigger Holdoff is set greater than the widest packet width.
Also as the CS signal is falling edge set to ~CS.

From my STB3 and SDS5kX:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=923664)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on February 07, 2020, 11:01:04 pm
@Tautech: is is possible to use SPI decode without the CS signal? Not every SPI bus uses CS.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 07, 2020, 11:12:59 pm
@Tautech: is is possible to use SPI decode without the CS signal? Not every SPI bus uses CS.
Yes, by using CLK Timeout.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 07, 2020, 11:13:30 pm
Like we do ( Timeout).

@tautech:

I see MISO disable on your screenshot - This is a point, I can´t choose on my sds2000x+....

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 07, 2020, 11:23:48 pm
From an anonymous source, a STB3 and SDS2000X+ SPI decode screenshot.
Thanks anonymous.  ;)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=923686)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on February 08, 2020, 09:55:13 am
Or a 300 MHz 10x autosense one for $59ea.
https://siglentna.com/product/sp2030a-auto-sense-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/

This what I expect to have it here in the box... :(
In the box of a lecroy waverunner were 4 probes, each of them costs appx 700€ when you buy them separately.
4pcs 2800€, Waverunner cost 13000€, makes 21.5% of the Price.
SDS2104X+ cost 1400€....21.5% from this would be 300€ - Divided through 4, bingo...where are my sp2030a probes ?!  ;)
Anyway, actually I got much more important "problems".
Trying everything, I couldn´t decode the spi signal from the stb-3 board on my sds2104x+.
Maybe I´m too dumb for this…. ::)

Margin on the Waverunner is a lot more than on the Siglent... No problem for Lecroy to throw in a couple of goodies. 20% is probably what Siglent earns  on each sale. That's why you get only wires and a bit of plastic for probes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 08, 2020, 10:17:58 am
Still, also former entry level scopes like the Hameg/R&S HMO came with proper auto-sense probes. If Siglent wants to get rid off the el-cheapo image, they should behave accordingly.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 08, 2020, 10:21:04 am
Still, also former entry level scopes like the Hameg/R&S HMO came with proper auto-sense probes. If Siglent wants to get rid off the el-cheapo image, they should behave accordingly.
No problem, I'll suggest they up the price to accommodate you.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 08, 2020, 10:31:16 am
Yeah, sure, because of the few bucks the proper probes would cost them...
But they should indeed reconsider their pricing policy. The only 2000X+ with proper probes costs nearly the same as the 5000X with the same bandwidth and identical probes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on February 08, 2020, 01:05:03 pm
Still, also former entry level scopes like the Hameg/R&S HMO came with proper auto-sense probes. If Siglent wants to get rid off the el-cheapo image, they should behave accordingly.

The entry level HMO1000 series didn't have autosensing at all. The HMO3000 series did have them, but with 300MHz to 500MHz and 4GSa/s they were not really entry level, when they were introduced.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 08, 2020, 01:47:31 pm
Nah. The HMO724, HMO1024 and HMO2024 even have/had a full fledged probe interface. Problem is that Hameg/R&S never released an active probe for the interface so all you got was auto-sensing. I should know as I own an HMO2024 which is virtually identical to the lower models except for bandwidth, memory and sample rate.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: twizla on February 09, 2020, 04:23:51 pm
Hello, this is my first post in this forum after several weeks reading. Really a great community!

As result, and after studying all available information, I also became a happy owner of SDS2000XPlus. Many thanks to all members for your great help in this process. My idea was to share my first impressions.

The scope really feels like scaled-down SDS5k. I like rich measurement functions including statistics, comfortable cursors, and intuitive parameter control with Universal knob. Shared channel control, compared to separate channel control in SDS5K, is no restriction to me. I do not change channel parameters that frequently.

Probe sensing on channel inputs is compatible with TEK probe, seems only one probe attenuation is implemented: 10x. When changing probe sense resistor values according TEK spec, scope does not change the attenuation value. Probably only single-level comparator implemented in the scope.

The trigger on input channels works perfectly, external trigger input has some jitter in ns-region. No issue for me.

Bandwidth evaluation confirms high-grade components used. I look forward to see the first tear-down report! Attached see the channel bandwidth comparison of different 100MHz and 500MHz models. The -3dB bandwidth is 150M and 600M respectively, with some variations between units. Many thanks to other’s contribution.

I compared the 500M model rise-time in three setups: Leo’s pulse generator only, Leo + TEK 500MHz passive probe and Leo + TEK 1GHz active probe. Measured rise-time is 650ps for Leo, <1ns for passive probe and <700ps for active probe. Very respectable values.

Siglent family includes more attractive products. Large output voltage and low jitter on AWG and good price/performance ratio of spectrum/vector analyzer catch my attention. I wish more unified design and operation concepts as power on/off switches (some have soft-switches, others not), menu structure and button labeling and layout to be found in new products.

I really recommend the new SDS2000XPlus to all interested readers.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 09, 2020, 04:33:26 pm
Hi,
Thanks for your post - I´m not alone anymore... ;D

Quote
Measured rise-time is 650ps for Leo

Hmmm…..must repeat my measure, I got appx 800ps.
Nevertheless, it´s sunday afternoon, time to play…
What I really like is the fast/slow acquisition mode.
For example you can watch a pwm signal slowly changing it´s duty-cycle, nice.

Quote from: tautech
From an anonymous source, a STB3 and SDS2000X+ SPI decode screenshot.

Finally I could decode too... :D
And have a look, it could decode even with a timebase of 50ms.... 8)



Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: twizla on February 09, 2020, 04:33:54 pm
some difficulties with attachments[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: voltsandjolts on February 09, 2020, 04:42:27 pm
For using Tek active probes, this DIY adapter might help:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/circuit-studio/example-project-tektronix-tekprobe-adapterbreakout/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/circuit-studio/example-project-tektronix-tekprobe-adapterbreakout/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on February 09, 2020, 04:50:25 pm
Post by user twizla sounds like SPAM.  Did he buy the 100MHz or 500MHz model?  How come he tested both models?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: twizla on February 09, 2020, 04:51:28 pm
Yeah, Tek Probe Interface on SDS200XPlus is what I was dreaming about. Thank you voltsandjolts for the link! I even considered the expensive and not-so-handy Tektronix 1103, or replacing the PCB inside the SDS2000XPlus with customized version. So far, keeping dreaming....
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 09, 2020, 04:55:01 pm
Quote
How come he tested both models?

Before/after "upgrading", I guess…

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on February 09, 2020, 04:56:15 pm
Post by user twizla sounds like SPAM.  Did he buy the 100MHz or 500MHz model?  How come he tested both models?

Because "hack" ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on February 09, 2020, 04:58:19 pm
The hack is not public and isn't the 500MHz upgrade only for 2-channel models?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 09, 2020, 05:06:46 pm
Hi,
It´s meant in another way - on 500M you could only use 2 ch.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on February 09, 2020, 05:09:15 pm
Is it possible to use channels 1 and 3 in 500MHz model?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 09, 2020, 05:11:38 pm
Yes,

1+2 or 3+4 you don´t have the full BW, but 1/2 and 3/4 it´s no problem.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 09, 2020, 05:13:55 pm
If a 5000X or 2000X plus owner can test how decoding works for long captures, it would be very helpful.

Im not really into (serial) decoding things, so could be a stupid question:

Like this perhaps ? (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2034745/#msg2034745)
Yes, something like that.  I tested the MSO5000 and at least it decodes everything that is on display, even when you capture over 10,000 SPI packets.  I tested the same on the Siglent SDS1000X-E and it stopped at around 3,000 packets, so I was wondering if anything changed on the 2000X plus.

Have you seen my spi post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2910342/#msg2910342) ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on February 09, 2020, 05:21:43 pm
I just saw it, so you could decode around 9000 packets.  I am waiting for my unit to arrive and will do a full test of SPI and the scope's ability to capture infrequent SPI event
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 09, 2020, 05:50:41 pm
Quote
Measured rise-time is 650ps for Leo

Hmmm…..must repeat my measure, I got appx 800ps.

Don´t know what I´ve meausured before, now I got appx 650ps too.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: twizla on February 09, 2020, 06:02:31 pm
Hi Martin72, the rise time degrades when Channel1 & Channel2 active to approx 1ns. As sample rate reduce to 1GHz. It's still very fast
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 09, 2020, 08:37:51 pm
Hi twizla,

I know this and the first measure was taken by only one channel active.
The only difference between the two measurings are, the first was taken with a timebase of 5ns instead 1ns now.

Quote
I really recommend the new SDS2000XPlus to all interested readers.

After having it for appx 3 weeks, I would sign this.
Nice scope for the money, regardless if it´s "hacked" or not.
Some little bugs "of course", but it´s brandnew and hope is given that siglent reacts faster than rigol ( this was one of the main points to change to siglent.).

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 09, 2020, 08:42:29 pm
Quote from: tautech
From an anonymous source, a STB3 and SDS2000X+ SPI decode screenshot.

Finally I could decode too... :D
And have a look, it could decode even with a timebase of 50ms.... 8)
:clap:
Good, you finally got there with a few more tips via PM's.  :phew:

Now work your way through the other STB3 protocols remembering to check packet lengths and set Trigger Holdoff to suit.
The protocol trigger suite is only needed if you want to trigger on a particular part of the data payload and attempts to do that should be reserved until you are properly confident with simple decoding. This is something I have not properly mastered however others with more decoding experience might jump in if you get stuck.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 09, 2020, 08:47:23 pm
Quote
Good, you finally got there with a few more tips via PM's.

 ;D

It wasn´t so easy like I´m used to have it at work - Main thing would be that I´m not really into data protocols - for me ( stuck in power electronics and analog circuits) it´s a "new challenge".
But I´m willing to learn... ;)
Won´t get it too off-topic, but there are some….Ah, forget it.
Maybe I open up a new thread about the STB-3 demo board.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 09, 2020, 10:06:31 pm
The hack is not public .......
Not officially but for the observant you can find it on the forum buried in a thread about another model.
My sources say that script works with SDS2kX+ too !

It will be some weeks before I have a 2kX+ unit to play with.  :(
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 09, 2020, 10:10:57 pm
LOL  ;D
On the other side, I saw it on Batronix, ordered immediately, got one  - And now it´s sold out.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on February 09, 2020, 10:44:48 pm
LOL  ;D
On the other side, I saw it on Batronix, ordered immediately, got one  - And now it´s sold out.
Duh. Just as I had halfway convinced myself to not wait for Rigol to cough up a new firmware for the MSO5000...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 10, 2020, 08:36:01 am
Hello everybody
Welcome to the forum.

Quote
Here are a few pictures of the possibilities of the STB-3.
With the SDS2000X+ ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 14, 2020, 12:18:10 pm
Where are the posts gone…. ???

Anyway, by cleaning off the dust, I thought to myself it would be very nice to have a frontcover panel (like the one for the rigol 5000)  for my siglent  - Nothing found, only the expensive bag.
Is there something planned to offer such an accessory?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 14, 2020, 09:23:11 pm
Where are the posts gone…. ???

Anyway, by cleaning off the dust, I thought to myself it would be very nice to have a frontcover panel (like the one for the rigol 5000)  for my siglent  - Nothing found, only the expensive bag.
Is there something planned to offer such an accessory?
Nothing I'm aware of and yes the BAG-S2 is a little on the top side of acceptable pricing.  :(
However they do offer good protection from the good padding they have plus there's several internal pouches for all your probes and leads.
I keep all my demo units in these as they offer great protection when you're carting them out and about to customers or shows.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 14, 2020, 09:37:49 pm
For people who must carry it permanently around, this bag make sense, no question.
And the price...OK, it´s expensive but the mentioned cover for the rigol will cost 89 bucks - and it´s simply a piece of plastic... ::)
Nevertheless, nearly every brand got these covers, perhaps sometime in the future siglent will offer this too.
Of course it´s not really important.
Edit:
After now 3 weeks of owning, I´m still happy with it, looking forward for things to come with the FW updates.
This could be a scope for our testdepartement.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 15, 2020, 10:56:08 pm
After several PMs arrived me, here is my verdict about rigol mso 5000 vs siglent sds2000x+.

Pros rigol 5000:

2-ch. AWG
HDMI Output
Four math traces at the same time
High waveform update range
Massive amount of trigger types
Massive amount of math types, especially filter functions the siglent doesn´t have
Up to 8GSa/s samplerate
Full usage of memory depth regardless of the timebase
Basic costs about appx 900 bucks.
Proper probes included

Cons:

Display seems a little bit dim and viewing angle is bad
Fan noise
Lagging of response what touch display concerns
Noisy frontend
Menu structure and knob arrangement design on the front Panel
Look and feel in general seems a little bit cheap
Only one firmware update so far, although it´s over a year on the market.

Siglent 2000X+ Pros:

Bigger, brighter, clearer display
Less lagging response what touch display concerns
Clearer menu structure
Clearer arrangement of the knobs on front panel
Suitable less noise fan
External trigger input
50 ohm input
8/10 bit Resolution
Eres function
2Mpt FFT
Bode Plot
Different colour math traces
More "adulter" look in General

Cons:

Less math and trigger functions
"Only" one channel AWG
Less waveform updates
No hdmi or vga output
Less samplerate
Soft power button

What the bugs in general concerns, I´m not nervous about it at the moment, this thing is brand new.






Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 16, 2020, 01:55:29 am
Martin, you missed the SDS2000X+ webserver that allows you to port the display onto any size monitor you like, grab screenshots directly at the PC, provide full remote control, and the SCPI panel and all without the need for additional software.

You need to have a play with it to fully appreciate its capabilities.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: ResistorRob on February 16, 2020, 03:19:23 am
Martin, you missed the SDS2000X+ webserver that allows you to port the display onto any size monitor you like, grab screenshots directly at the PC, provide full remote control, and the SCPI panel and all without the need for additional software.

You need to have a play with it to fully appreciate its capabilities.  ;)

So what you are saying is that with the Rigol you simply plug the HDMI into a monitor, and with the Siglent you must buy a PC and configure some software in order to use an external display  ;D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 16, 2020, 06:26:28 am
So what you are saying is that with the Rigol you simply plug the HDMI into a monitor, and with the Siglent you must buy a PC and configure some software in order to use an external display  ;D
No, it's different and let's examine a use case.
Why would we want to port the display when you already have a 10" touch display that's also keyboard and mouse compatible ?

To use the webserver all you need is a LAN connection and a PC on the same LAN with a browser open then all the features are available remotely including of course the live display which then can be used for a larger display or ported to a projector where it might be used in a presentation along with say a Powerpoint window.

All this can be done by just assigning an IP to the scope and pointing a browser to that IP. Same for the SCPI command panel.

Further, additional features are available in the webserver Instrument Control tab as shown here using the same setup I posted a few days back when giving SPI decoding tips to Martin but this time gathered using the webrowser's screenshot button which saves directly to the PC's browser download folder.
Sure this is from SDS5kX and the SDS2kX+ will be little if any different.

Saved screenshot via a browser:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=929210)

Screenshot of webrowser
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=929214)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on February 16, 2020, 10:04:54 am
OK, but the Rigol MSO5000 has a webserver, too, right? So it's not really an advantage for the Siglent to not have an HDMI output ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 16, 2020, 10:21:28 am
I don´t need a hdmi output, never need a video output on a scope.

Quote
Sure this is from SDS5kX and the SDS2kX+ will be little if any different.

I just try it out, it´s the same. The button "Instrument Control" is somekind of irritating as you couldn´t do much with it.
But the lan thing itself works.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 16, 2020, 11:06:28 am
Quote
Martin, with the button Instrument Control you switch the browser to the SDS, see Scrennshot from tautech.

I know this already, otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to take a picture from it.  ;)


Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 16, 2020, 11:18:27 am
Quote
What are you doing wrong that the selection is still visible on the left?

Don´t know, but I´ve found a fullscreen button on the lower right of the screen.
And forget what I said about the function button, the scope is fully controllable - I was irritating that the mouse-pointer doesn´t change it´s outfit when you go to a active field.
So you can control the scope on pc as if you do it directly with mouse on scope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 16, 2020, 11:23:53 am
Quote
(…)then I press Intrument Control, then comes the SDS screen and the selection on the left side (Intrument Control etc.) is gone.

I do the same and nothing is gone.  ;)
Maybe a behaviour of my browser (Edge).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 16, 2020, 11:42:14 am
Quote
(…)then I press Intrument Control, then comes the SDS screen and the selection on the left side (Intrument Control etc.) is gone.

I do the same and nothing is gone.  ;)
Maybe a behaviour of my browser (Edge).
Maybe. Can you try another browser to check if it's the same ?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=929284)

In Chrome only the display is visible and you can scale it to fit your remote display with Ctrl/mousewheel or Ctrl/Up/Down arrows.
To return to the webrowser panel window you just hit Esc.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 16, 2020, 11:50:07 am
I´ll try it later in the afternoon.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 16, 2020, 04:39:45 pm
Quote from: tautech
Can you try another browser to check if it's the same ?

Just try it with chrome from my Smartphone, then it looks like yours.
So it´s dependable from which browser you use.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 16, 2020, 07:28:44 pm
OK, but the Rigol MSO5000 has a webserver, too, right?
Ok so it does, I just looked it up.

Quote
So it's not really an advantage for the Siglent to not have an HDMI output ;)
Right, however with a webserver there is the workaround to port the display to another monitor.

However the omission of 50 ohm inputs and probe sense is more of an oversight in an 8 GSa/s DSO.
The SCSI style MSO connector is a bit 'yesterday' too.

ymmv  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 16, 2020, 08:35:09 pm
Quote
However the omission of 50 ohm inputs and probe sense is more of an oversight in an 8 GSa/s DSO.
The SCSI style MSO connector is a bit 'yesterday' too.

This is the result when you want to bring your new technique as cheap as it can get on the market.
With proper display, 50ohm inputs, probe sensing etc., you´re at the pricerange of a rigol 7000 which already exists.
If 8GSa/s is not important, then…..Bingo.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 17, 2020, 08:42:45 am
Managed to nab just one unit from the factory today and I'll have it in a week or so.  :phew:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 17, 2020, 09:18:14 pm
Batronix and Welectron here doesn´t have the 2104 on stock anymore - Look like it´s selling well.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on February 17, 2020, 10:48:03 pm
Batronix and Welectron here doesn´t have the 2104 on stock anymore - Look like it´s selling well.
In my opinion siglent never sent many units to the distributors and they got caught by the virus shutdown, I don't think they sold many units, actually yours seem to be the only unit out there
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 17, 2020, 10:57:20 pm
It seems so.
But the "higher" models (200Mhz and more) are avaible.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 18, 2020, 01:27:26 am
Batronix and Welectron here doesn´t have the 2104 on stock anymore - Look like it´s selling well.
In my opinion siglent never sent many units to the distributors and they got caught by the virus shutdown, I don't think they sold many units, actually yours seem to be the only unit out there
Nope, initial production runs were fully sold to distributors prior or very shortly after release. When I went to get some weeks ago they just weren't available.
There's now at least 2 other members here with 2kX Plus models so 3 members at least with them.
It seems so.
But the "higher" models (200Mhz and more) are avaible.
As above however I could only get just one single 2104X Plus yesterday and I wouldn't be surprised if it was robbed from another distributors order that's waiting for a production run of something else.

I wanted a 2354X Plus so to have the top model as a demo unit but the 100 MHz version will have to do for now.  :(
Title: Tek Mode
Post by: DL2XY on February 18, 2020, 09:12:56 pm
Has someone an idea what this "Tek Mode" stand for?

[attach=1]

I have found nothing about in the documentation  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 18, 2020, 09:51:23 pm
I wanted a 2354X Plus so to have the top model as a demo unit but the 100 MHz version will have to do for now.  :(

Well, this would be a less problem to change... :-X ;)

Quote
Has someone an idea what this "Tek Mode" stand for?

LOL, didn´t recognize it so far…
Maybe it´s an "artifact" like the also mentioned debug mode in the menu.
Title: Re: Tek Mode
Post by: Pinkus on February 18, 2020, 11:27:41 pm
Has someone an idea what this "Tek Mode" stand for?

(Attachment Link)

I have found nothing about in the documentation  :-//
It slows down the user interface reaction and display output to 25% speed? gg
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 19, 2020, 06:25:46 am
I wanted a 2354X Plus so to have the top model as a demo unit but the 100 MHz version will have to do for now.  :(

Well, this would be a less problem to change... :-X ;)
Certainly, now there is a script available.  ;)

Quote
Has someone an idea what this "Tek Mode" stand for?
Quote
LOL, didn´t recognize it so far…
Maybe it´s an "artifact" like the also mentioned debug mode in the menu.
Dunno what the Tek mode is all about but I'll ask the product manager when I get mine.  :-//

Debug mode is in the SDS5000X too and it's a tool for engineers and beta testers to pull reports out of the scopes OS and the password for it is ........ :-X  ;)
Had a look around in there and it's not a place to change anything unless you really know what you are doing.  :scared:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on February 19, 2020, 09:05:53 am
... the password for it is ........ :-X  ;)

That reads as "hunter2" over here... :wtf:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 19, 2020, 09:13:00 am
... the password for it is ........ :-X  ;)

That reads as "hunter2" over here... :wtf:
Nope, more characters.  :-X
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on February 19, 2020, 09:17:38 am
... the password for it is ........ :-X  ;)

That reads as "hunter2" over here... :wtf:
Nope, more characters.  :-X
Don't worry, kid, I'm sure someone else will get it ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 19, 2020, 09:24:54 am
... the password for it is ........ :-X  ;)

That reads as "hunter2" over here... :wtf:
Nope, more characters.  :-X
Don't worry, kid, I'm sure someone else will get it ;)
It's known to a few outside Siglent and that's how I found what it was but seriously a peek in there is all I needed to see then promptly logged out !  :scared:
I paid a lot for my SDS5104X SDS5054X an I don't wanna break it ! It's my very special baby !  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on February 19, 2020, 10:29:57 am
Hello Martin72,

A little question for you regarding serial decoding.

Would you say it is better or worse on the SDS2000+ compared to the MSO5000 ?
The serial decoding is much better on my MSO5000 than on my previous SDS2000X ( non plus ).
So I wonder how this new model behaves compared to the MSO5000 ( triggering on char for example and your general feeling regarding this )

Thank you  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on February 19, 2020, 04:45:49 pm
Hi, would anyone want to make a video review on this oscilloscope? There is nothing on the internet yet and I am eagerly waiting for when it will be :-) I really think about it but there is nowhere.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Electro Fan on February 19, 2020, 05:10:02 pm
Hi, would anyone want to make a video review on this oscilloscope? There is nothing on the internet yet and I am eagerly waiting for when it will be :-) I really think about it but there is nowhere.

+1

Maybe Dave could put a Rigol 5000 vs a Siglent X Plus comparison review into the video queue :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Frex on February 19, 2020, 05:49:30 pm
Hi,

I will love too a Dave's video review about the Siglent SDS2000X Plus,
 there is not really real use info about it other than commercial promotion.
Comparing with MSO5000 is also a good idea, almost same price tag scope.

Frex
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on February 19, 2020, 07:27:16 pm
Dave reviewed the MSO5000 and then he had to make another because all the bugs.  I think the same bugs are still there.  He also reviewed the SDS5000X and you can see the SDS2000X plus as a stripped down version of it, too similar to make another review.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 19, 2020, 07:34:43 pm
Dave reviewed the MSO5000 and then he had to make another because all the bugs.  I think the same bugs are still there.  He also reviewed the SDS5000X and you can see the SDS2000X plus as a stripped down version of it, too similar to make another review.
Stripped down just a little yes, no active probe interface and shared controls but with an inbuilt 50 MHz AWG.

Defpom will get one on loan for a video sometime in the next few weeks.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 19, 2020, 07:46:51 pm
Stripped down just a little yes, no active probe interface and shared controls but with an inbuilt 50 MHz AWG.
There are quite a few more substantial differences as discussed in this thread before.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 19, 2020, 08:10:52 pm
Would you say it is better or worse on the SDS2000+ compared to the MSO5000 ?
The serial decoding is much better on my MSO5000 than on my previous SDS2000X ( non plus ).
So I wonder how this new model behaves compared to the MSO5000 ( triggering on char for example and your general feeling regarding this )

Hi,

At the first sights, they seem to be equal, but I hadn´t test it on work so far ( where I have the possibillity to check it with 25Mhz SPI Signal, very noisy and hard to handle what triggering concerns).
Can do further ones at the weekend with the demoboard.
Only thing I regonized was, the siglent could decode "longer" in case of setting the timebase longer ( rigol could decode down to 20ms/div., siglent down to 50ms/div ) but the rigol I´d once tested at work, not with the demoboard here, so the value for e.g. clock could be different.
"General Feeling" is that the menu structure was "better", clearer - But I must test it again
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 19, 2020, 08:12:15 pm
There are quite a few more substantial differences as discussed in this thread before.

Eres and averaging for example.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 19, 2020, 08:40:30 pm
Quote
The Siglent EU Support says the following.

WTF, they´re talking to you ?!  ;)
Still waiting for an answer….

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thm_w on February 19, 2020, 11:08:08 pm
Dave reviewed the MSO5000 and then he had to make another because all the bugs.  I think the same bugs are still there.  He also reviewed the SDS5000X and you can see the SDS2000X plus as a stripped down version of it, too similar to make another review.

Majority of these bugs Dave discussed were in the logic analyzer, which majority of people would never use. You think the same bugs are still there, what useful information. The full list is incredibly well documented here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-rigol-mso5000-tests-bugs-questions/) for anyone else wondering.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on February 20, 2020, 12:31:26 am
Dave reviewed the MSO5000 and then he had to make another because all the bugs.  I think the same bugs are still there.  He also reviewed the SDS5000X and you can see the SDS2000X plus as a stripped down version of it, too similar to make another review.

Majority of these bugs Dave discussed were in the logic analyzer, which majority of people would never use. You think the same bugs are still there, what useful information. The full list is incredibly well documented here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-rigol-mso5000-tests-bugs-questions/) for anyone else wondering.
Bugs are bugs, it doesn't matter if you don't use the function.  The fact is that Rigol is selling an unfinished product and that bothers me a lot.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 20, 2020, 09:35:12 pm
Quote
The fact is that Rigol is selling an unfinished product and that bothers me a lot.

Can´t remind of any scope brand/model, who was flawless from the beginning.
Everyone hast to launch fw updates for debugging.

Quote
Hi, would anyone want to make a video review on this oscilloscope?

I would, if I could.
But I  couldn´t... ;)

Quote from: TK
He also reviewed the SDS5000X and you can see the SDS2000X plus as a stripped down version of it, too similar to make another review.

I don´t think it´s too similar what the hardware concerns - Therefore the  difference between could make Dave curious.
If he take notice about the 2K+ so far.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: pipe2null on February 20, 2020, 09:56:43 pm
Bugs are bugs, it doesn't matter if you don't use the function.  The fact is that Rigol is selling an unfinished product and that bothers me a lot.

I bought my MSO5072 back in September, knowing full well the issues with it.  At the time I had also heard rumors about Siglent's upcoming scopes (I can confirm that there are Siglent beta testers who are members of EEVBlog, Shhh!!!  Hehe) but I did not want to wait 4+ months for something that would likely cost hundreds more.  I do not regret buying the Rigol: until I had it on my bench, I had not physically touched a scope in many, many, many years (I vaguely recall that I got an EE degree a couple decades ago, but went into software instead).  Honestly, the (hacked) Rigol completely fulfills all my current and future needs, up to the point I'll be buying a 2+GHz BW boat anchor.  BUT, I have the same complaints about it as everyone else.  I am currently at the "hobbyist" level, but I am building up my home lab and my skill level to see how viable a career change from software->hardware might be, without a drastic pay cut.  I just ordered my first "adult-ish" multi output power supply, a GPP-4323 w/LAN (FYI: I got a good deal on the PS from Tequipment and they have a discount for EEVBlog members), and from the reviews I expect I'll have high confidence in the equipment. 

But I do not have the same confidence in my Rigol, and that confidence decreases every day that they do not release a FW update.  Long story short, I'm seriously looking at trading "up" to the SDS2104X Plus, assuming I'll eventually unearth the "home improvement" procedure.  I have the impression from this thread that it's safe to assume I'll have much higher confidence with the Siglent, but is that confidence worth the extra cash and the loss of 8GSa/s?  Or perhaps my impression of the SDS2000X Plus is a bit too rosey?  Well, that's the (very individual) question I'm struggling with.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 20, 2020, 10:11:54 pm
I´m with you.

I had my rigol 5074 for over one year, was one of the first owners.
Before, I was a rigol "fan" since the DS1000Z cames up.
Liked the full packed features.
Was happy as the 5000 cames up, for me the true heritage of the DS1000Z.
But month goes by….
In this time I was nearly every week in contact with the rigol eu support.
And they gave me all the support they could, very nice.
But at the end..
Only one official fw update, next update is delaying for months.
Should launched in may 2019, now we got february 2020.
And then I took a very low noise measurement and must find out, the rigol couldn´t really handle this.
At the same time, the siglent 2K+ cames up.
"Only" 2GSa/s...hm-hm..
But otherwise…
It was a spontaneous decision, I´ve sold my rigol, put some bucks additional and ordered the siglent.
Less samplerate, less features - But I don´t regret it until today.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on February 21, 2020, 12:12:32 am
I am with you too.  I had the MSO5000 2 times, the first unit sold after seeing the poor UI design (screen menu items unaligned with the buttons, dim display, slow UI, etc).  Then I saw the hack and tried one more time, the new unit had better LCD brightness, but it was still very unresponsive... and concluded that if you don't really need the extra features (sample rate, deep memory and all the hacked features), as a daily use scope, it is unbearable... I lost confidence on it, it was not pleasant to use.  Sold it.

Purchased the SDS2104X plus 2-3 weeks ago and waiting for it to be back in stock
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: oewean on February 21, 2020, 08:30:49 am
New firmware released for Siglent SDS2000X Plus
SDS2000XP Firmware – 1.3.5R3 (Release Date 02.21.20 )

https://www.siglenteu.com/download/8989/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/download/8989/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: NoisyBoy on February 21, 2020, 12:33:00 pm
I am impressed,

1. Supported Sign as a math function
2. Updated the Webserver. The built-in bin2csv tool supported to convert binary data of digital channels
3. Added English help information
4. Fixed several bugs

It took Rigol 6 months to release 04.08 with 5 fixes for the rest of the world. 

Not only that, the Siglent firmware was released simultaneously at the US.  Rigol MSO5000 kept US at an older firmware for another 5 months for some unknown reason, while the rest of the world was on a different version. So it took U.S. almost a year to get a fix with 5 patches and no new features.

Siglent did this despite the disruptions caused by the Coronavirus, while Rigol has not released a single new firmware for 3 months for ANY of its products.

If this new firmware truly fixes some of the top issues in the Siglent scope, that would put them leagues above Rigol in firmware support. 

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on February 21, 2020, 01:04:14 pm
They seem to have made a lot of progress at this level  :-+
They were as bad as Rigol few month/years ago.....

I hope this will push Rigol to progress on that.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: NoisyBoy on February 21, 2020, 02:09:40 pm
One can only hope, but again, as I said many time before, I expect nothing when it comes to Rigol. 

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 21, 2020, 02:23:39 pm
Eres and averaging for example.
Slightly offtopic but I recently tried Eres at work on my LeCroy 6Zi and on the WS3000 of a colleague. The Eres on the 6zi is shown as acquisition feature (i.e. exists on each channel and affects the channel's display), but is indeed a post-processing option. So it doesn't alter the measured sample values and can be modified after acquisition.
On the WS3000 though, Eres is a math function, so you can activate it in addition to the channel but it won't replace the channel. Still, you can deactivate the display of a channel and keep the math function. However, the WS3000 seems to be limited to two math channels and the update of these channels is very slow compared to the actual channels.
Personally, I would consider this 2nd kind of Eres implementation (which seems to be more or less identical to that on the SDS2000X Plus) unusable for anything but a screenshot now and then (even there using a math function clearly reveals that this is not really the measured data).
So I really wonder how the "hardware accelerated" Eres on the SDS5000X is working. If it's really following Lecroy's definition of Eres, it can't modify the measured data but has to be done for the display only - probably at the same level where also the linear/sinc interpolation is done.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 21, 2020, 03:48:02 pm
New firmware released for Siglent SDS2000X Plus
SDS2000XP Firmware – 1.3.5R3 (Release Date 02.21.20 )

Hm,

I already got this version  :-//
Date of the file is december, 26th.
Nevertheless, I´ve done it and no message came up (e.g. this version already exists).
Maybe this is a upgrade for very few early models, not for every model.

Interesting thing @tv84:

In the upgrade instructions for upgrading via web server, you can see something…. ;)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on February 21, 2020, 04:17:40 pm
I don't know if this SDS2504X+ is able to handle 500Mhz on all channels or if a SDS2504X+ = SDS2354X+ with 500Mhz upgrade.

If that is the case, Performa01 has already has already measured 570Mhz @ -3dB.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 21, 2020, 05:07:58 pm
Same as before.
I wonder it won´t deny the upgrade, although it is the same version.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 21, 2020, 05:50:02 pm
Now I know I wasn´t wrong, in two ways.

First, it really doesn´t recognize if the firmware is already installed - Test it simple by upgrade it again and no message appears.  ;)
Second, I got the evidence, that my scope already got the firmware:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2881294/#msg2881294 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2881294/#msg2881294)

And have a look at the pics…

Then have a look at the pic I´ve taken NOW.

So in my opinion, the launching of this fw-version was a mistake or, as I wrote it before, for really early models - But I don´t believe this.

Quote
Show once which options are enabled

See below.

Martin
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 21, 2020, 07:14:05 pm

So in my opinion, the launching of this fw-version was a mistake or, as I wrote it before, for really early models - But I don´t believe this.

Of late Siglent have always made available the FIRST (release) firmware version.
Because of the virus restricting their return to work this first public firmware version has only now been released.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 21, 2020, 08:06:20 pm
Hm, what sense make this...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 21, 2020, 08:12:16 pm
Hm, what sense make this...
A baseline version that beta testers usually don't have at product release.

And an initial something for tv84 to investigate.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 21, 2020, 08:15:39 pm
Ah, I see. ;)
To be honest, I would also have been surprised if a "real" update had come so early, especially under the actual circumstances.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on February 21, 2020, 08:58:18 pm
So, looking at the FW:

PRODUCT_ID = 16001

References to 2504X+ don't exist explicitly in the app.

Comparing with my previous msg here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-hack-to-200mhz-and-full-options/msg2756908/#msg2756908), we can see that ZODIAC- has became known as ZDL-HD-1G.

Siglent is investing in 5 baselines:
0, 1 - SDS1000X-E
2 - SDS2000X-E
3 - SDS5000X
(4 - SLA1016)
5 - SDS2000X+
6 - ZDL-HD-1G
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on February 21, 2020, 09:05:12 pm
Same as before.
I wonder it won´t deny the upgrade, although it is the same version.

Usually all vendors allow the flashing of the current FW version (Siglent and Rigol, for sure).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 23, 2020, 05:27:14 pm
Today I´ve played around again with the stb-3 demoboard.
And again, I was pleased about the nice display of the siglent, but couldn´t get a better pic to show how good or much better it is in comparision to the rigol 5000..
For the decoding, I took the UART demo.
It seems it decodes from the memory, not from the screen.
Pic was taken at a timebase of 200ms, if you decrease the memdepth from maximum to say 100kpts, errors occuring.
Back to full memdepth, pressing "stop" and zooming in, it decodes as well as if it´s in "run" mode.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 23, 2020, 05:49:15 pm
Additionally, I take the SPI Signal too.
Nice point in the decoder menu are the copy functions of the signal settings.
And so I choose "copy to trigger" and trigger changes to spi Decoding and I got rockstable signals.
By the way:

I just saw it, so you could decode around 9000 packets.

Test it again and lowered the timebase to 100ms - It decodes 15000 packages and this is the limit, at 200 or 500ms the amount is fixed to 15000.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on February 24, 2020, 07:53:59 pm
Hello, you do not know if there are any discount coupons somewhere batronix coupon code?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 24, 2020, 08:06:25 pm
Hi,

No I don´t know a thing about it - But before I´ve bought my siglent from batronix, I´ve pressed the button "Request Offer" - And they offered me 3% off.
(Looking back, I wouldn't have waited another day for an offer as quickly as the siglent was sold off  :phew: )
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on February 24, 2020, 08:14:56 pm
3% is a discount like a grain of rice  |O I would expect something more interesting at least a two-digit number with one at the beginning: D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 24, 2020, 08:24:21 pm
When "Media Markt" will offer scopes in the future, you could have luck when tey got their VATs off days.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on February 24, 2020, 08:25:29 pm
3% is a discount like a grain of rice  |O I would expect something more interesting at least a two-digit number with one at the beginning: D
No problem, additional discount is available for class sets with educational discounts if approved by Siglent.

How many class sets do you need ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on February 24, 2020, 08:36:54 pm
I don't quite understand the query. I need an oscilloscope as a hobby for my house and maybe another for my brother. It is the Siglent SDS2104X Plus
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on February 24, 2020, 08:43:14 pm
I don't quite understand the query. I need an oscilloscope as a hobby for my house and maybe another for my brother. It is the Siglent SDS2104X Plus
Why would you expect being given a significant discount for a single, or maybe two, pieces of equipment in such high demand that it is sold out everywhere? They could just sell it to the next guy at the full listing price. If they had any in stock, that is.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on February 24, 2020, 08:45:35 pm
Saelig offers a better discount for every EEVBLOG forum member with a promo code, I am sure Batronix can do the same or better
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on February 24, 2020, 08:46:45 pm
And why not? He who buys it in bulk, so it does not come from his earned money but from some budget that does not burn as a private need. Moreover, "do not expect" but I ask. There is nothing wrong with asking.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 24, 2020, 08:48:35 pm
Quote
I am sure Batronix can do the same or better

Correct, can..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on February 24, 2020, 09:27:11 pm
And why not? He who buys it in bulk, so it does not come from his earned money but from some budget that does not burn as a private need. Moreover, "do not expect" but I ask. There is nothing wrong with asking.

uh...

3% is a discount like a grain of rice  |O I would expect something more interesting at least a two-digit number with one at the beginning: D

Emphasis mine.  :palm:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on February 25, 2020, 09:34:37 am
Things cost money.
I don't think there is much possible discount on entry-level models.
The low cost probes on the entry level model shows us that they pay attention to the margin.

You will probably be more likely to get 10% or better if you order an SDS2204X+ or SDS2354X+.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on February 25, 2020, 10:04:19 am
I hear MSO5074 are going cheap these days. Might be an option. You can't be choosy if you're penny pinching.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on February 25, 2020, 10:17:31 am
And I have mine on sell on this forum  >:D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on February 25, 2020, 03:29:54 pm
Hello. For skeptics that it is not possible to get a discount, so it is possible. I got a big discount. If anyone was interested so PM  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on February 25, 2020, 05:36:33 pm
Embedded World started today. Traditionally Batronix offers a 5-6% "trade show" discount with a code which you can get at their booth. In 2016 it was EW16R. In 2017 it was EW17MR. Maybe it's EW20(M)R this year ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 25, 2020, 08:01:39 pm
Quote from: Svrbinek
If anyone was interested so PM

If it is an official/authorized dealer, you can also name him here.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 26, 2020, 09:10:42 pm
Hi,

I hate reading long pdf-files, so what should I do with the user manual ?
Right, print it... ;)
So I uploaded the file online to have it turned into a real manual.
The book should arrive on forthcoming saturday.
I wonder how it will turn out.
Costs....around 38€ for a single one, higher book editions would have been cheaper.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on February 27, 2020, 03:31:09 pm
Hi, I would probably print it and bind and the cost would be 5 EUR with a link :-D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on February 27, 2020, 03:35:55 pm
So today I finally agreed with Batronix about Siglent SDS2104X Plus. The original price that I wrote in the news was a bug on the Batronix side and the next day they apologized and corrected the price. They gave a 6% discount. In the end I stole them at 8% but at least two pieces must be bought. I definitely want one and so I want to ask who is interested in this model with an 8% discount from Batronix. If anyone finds, we have to make a joint purchase. The price is 2626, - EUR for both for 1 piece is 1313, - EUR including VAT. If someone can redeem an ICO number it is possible to refund VAT. Please who is interested write and we will agree.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 27, 2020, 06:28:05 pm
Quote
The book should arrive on forthcoming saturday.

Correction, the book has arrived... ;)
Nice quality, although some pictures are a little bit dark but that doesn´t matter too much.

Martin
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 28, 2020, 10:41:26 pm
If anyone finds, we have to make a joint purchase. The price is 2626, - EUR for both for 1 piece is 1313, - EUR including VAT.

To be honest....
I´ve asked and became the offer for 3% off - This tooks me under 1400€.
If they hadn't offered it, I would have bought it anyway.
Because If I can spend 1300, than I can spend 1400 also.
So much effort for a few bucks less….Can´t really understand this.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on February 29, 2020, 07:17:19 am
Every EURO at home counts. I can't find EUR 100 on the street.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on February 29, 2020, 08:31:34 am
So today I finally agreed with Batronix about Siglent SDS2104X Plus. The original price that I wrote in the news was a bug on the Batronix side and the next day they apologized and corrected the price. They gave a 6% discount. In the end I stole them at 8% but at least two pieces must be bought. I definitely want one and so I want to ask who is interested in this model with an 8% discount from Batronix. If anyone finds, we have to make a joint purchase. The price is 2626, - EUR for both for 1 piece is 1313, - EUR including VAT. If someone can redeem an ICO number it is possible to refund VAT. Please who is interested write and we will agree.

What is an ICO number ?
Do you mean VAT registration number ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on February 29, 2020, 09:43:43 am
Yes exactly. I was referring to the VAT registration number.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on February 29, 2020, 09:54:50 am
It's not very legal.
I doubt that someone who has a business will take the risk of buying without VAT and then sell it to you  :wtf:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on February 29, 2020, 10:14:38 am
Especially not since authorities will collect the VAT from him if he doesn't sell it to you with a proper invoice and including VAT...

And if he doesn't declare it, it will be a tax fraud.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: twizla on February 29, 2020, 12:28:23 pm
I like Martin72 approach of book print of the manual PDF. Serious instrument ask for solid tools. Though i made my manual in local copy shop, next time i will save my time and go for perfection. Also my black in printed screenshots is very high contrast

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on February 29, 2020, 12:51:50 pm
Every EURO at home counts. I can't find EUR 100 on the street.

True. A penny saved is a penny earned. If you're on a hobbyist budget, spendings on the hobby compete with the demands of the household. If you're not single and with no obligations, 100€ is quite a lump. So, nothing can be said against a bit of haggling. As long as it's not under the assumption that the vendor needn't make a profit for your benefit alone.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: twizla on February 29, 2020, 01:24:12 pm
Played around with an old cellphone. Yellow trace is TX IQ signal, pink is RX IQ signal and green the battery current. You see two RX burst, the shorter and more noisy neighbor cell monitoring and longer burst being call data. Scope Zone Trigger function will help, if needed to synchronize either the shorter or the longer ones. Very happy with the scope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: twizla on February 29, 2020, 01:29:06 pm
Prospective EU buyers, recommend to ask an offer from Siglent.eu distributor
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 29, 2020, 01:35:26 pm
Ah, another owner, now I´m not "alone" anymore.. 8)
Which model did you buy and from which distributor, Welectron ?

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on February 29, 2020, 02:11:26 pm
Prospective EU buyers, recommend to ask an offer from Siglent.eu distributor
No. Poor service. This guy has a whole bunch of .eu domains for various brands and is just shuffling boxes.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 29, 2020, 02:13:56 pm
Quote
Look at   https://www.welectron.com/ (https://www.welectron.com/)

Yep, I know welectron and bought several things from.
But I don´t knew the discount so far...a bit of pity but at last nothing that would make me cry in my pillow.
For some who want to buy at welectron a nice thing to get, see below.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on February 29, 2020, 02:26:36 pm
Of course I do not want anything illegal, so if it is beyond the edge and in no way. As for the budget so I have to watch it. Three kids, wife with one year old baby at home so I'm on my own. Who doesn't have a family doesn't know what I'm talking about. When it was free, it was all easier. But family is more than anything including oscilloscope :-)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 29, 2020, 02:27:08 pm
Quote
Maybe you are mistaken and mean another dealer

What I´ve understand is, he means siglent.eu and not welectron.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on February 29, 2020, 02:43:06 pm
Quote
Maybe you are mistaken and mean another dealer

What I´ve understand is, he means siglent.eu and not welectron.
Exactly!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on February 29, 2020, 02:44:31 pm
Thank you, I have been in touch with this seller since Friday, who decided to respond to my offer from Batronix and pledged to give me a better price than Batronix. So let's see, I sent an offer from Batronix and the discount was 8%
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 29, 2020, 02:45:42 pm
Just have a look at Welectron in Karlsruhe: welectron.com
In total if you do it right it is 6.9% discount and that with 1 device.

I´ve played the things through….nearly 100 bucks less, nice..
...For me at the next buy., ;)

Quote
I sent an offer from Batronix and the discount was 8%

For two scopes, if I remember it right.
I would choose welectron, a little less discount but you won´t have the stress finding another one to buy the second (with all the possible risks).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on February 29, 2020, 03:07:44 pm
Well now just convince my wife :-) I started it yesterday and today I will continue :-) Life is short :-)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on February 29, 2020, 10:00:02 pm
Well now just convince my wife :-)

According to this offer (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2939598/#msg2939598), the lack of only 13€ shouldn´t make it impossible.. ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on March 01, 2020, 08:14:30 am
Well, it's more like the whole oscilloscope itself. For her it is an expensive box  :-DD
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on March 01, 2020, 08:39:11 am
You can buy my MSO5074 for much less money  >:D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 01, 2020, 04:52:51 pm
Actually, I play again with the decode signals of the STB-3, trying out to decode them with my scope and learn from it ( don´t know much about decoding).
Uart and spi I´ve managed so far, today I want to decode I2C and CAN.
Getting stucked on the I2C ( signal is stable, but no decoding, no clue why.), I try the CAN.
And study the user manual how to do the right settings.
And I think, I´ve found a bug or I´m too blind to find it on the scope.
The pic below shows a menu which seems to doesn´t exist... :-//
Or, as I said, I´m too blind.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on March 01, 2020, 04:56:27 pm
This menu will only exist in CAN FD mode. Are you 100% sure you selected "CAN FD" as frame type?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 01, 2020, 05:00:25 pm
Yes, I´m blind.... |O

Doesn´t notice the whole decode list, saw "can" and that was it - a few lines beyond, it will be "CAN FD"... :palm:
Thank You!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on March 01, 2020, 05:26:54 pm
Hi Martin. Will Siglent be able to decode an IR remote control signal?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 01, 2020, 05:54:41 pm
Hi,

No, whether recs 80 or rc-5 or hitachi code.
Hm... if this can do it in the future (firmware) it would be unique….
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on March 01, 2020, 06:06:26 pm
Just a little wonder if SDS1104X E would not be enough, because it is significantly different. I know it has only 1GS / s and memory about 14Mb. Now I have Agilent 1GS / s but memory only 4Kb. Rather, I have no idea what the advantage of 50 Ohm inputs. It just eroded me if it would be sufficient for me cheaper 4 channel.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 01, 2020, 06:18:04 pm
As always, it´s depending from what you want to do with it.
I´ve owned a siglent sds1104X-E and was pleased about it - Maybe it got all you need, then go for this and save a lot of money.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on March 01, 2020, 06:30:38 pm
Can you briefly only basic points as the difference between them? I mean, besides memory and better sampling, what else would the 2000 model have or better? Like mathematical functions or other things?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 01, 2020, 07:20:05 pm
Hi,

Bigger screen (10" instead 7"), zone trigger, autosense probe inputs, 50ohm Inputs, formular editor (math), "real" built in awg, touchscreen, have a look at the two specsheets:

SDS1000X-E (https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2018/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf)

SDS2000X-Plus (https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2019/12/SDS2000X-Plus_Datasheet_DS0102XP_E01A-1.pdf)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 01, 2020, 07:25:48 pm
By the way and just recognized it now….

Test it again and lowered the timebase to 100ms - It decodes 15000 packages and this is the limit, at 200 or 500ms the amount is fixed to 15000.

LOL, the maximum frames are already given in the specs….
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 01, 2020, 07:41:14 pm
Hi,

Bigger screen (10" instead 7"), zone trigger, autosense probe inputs, 50ohm Inputs, formular editor (math), "real" built in awg, touchscreen, have a look at the two specsheets:
Add mouse and keyboard control, Power Analysis, inbuilt MSO HW, smart fan ? (like SDS5000X), 2 Mpts FFT, RTC, Histograms, DMM mode, vertical zoom..............
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 01, 2020, 07:43:51 pm
….1ppm timebase accuracy, instead 25ppm...and so on.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on March 01, 2020, 08:13:55 pm
So it's clear. Although I won't use everything, I would cry that I don't have it. So no compromises :-) SDS2104X +
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 01, 2020, 08:18:02 pm
Martin, can you confirm 2kX Plus also has a smart fan ?
My SDS5kX fan is at full power at boot but slows to much quieter within a minute of boot.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 01, 2020, 08:22:17 pm
Just checked it out:
No, it remains on the same (quiet) level.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on March 02, 2020, 07:19:22 pm
For the record: there is a thread about the SDS5000X (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds5104x-disappointing/) (total mess though due to corrupt screen shots which make the forum SW hide all following postings on page 1) which indicates that measurement are not performed at all for large memory/capture buffer sizes. I.e. it seems as if even something simple as an "edge counter" measurement is not performed unless you reduce the memory size or zoom in. So it seems that the SDS5000X is not able to perform measurements on its whole deep memory - which would somewhat kill the idea of deep memory for certain applications and would be the final nail in the coffin for me. So I wonder if someone checked this on the SDS2000X+.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 02, 2020, 08:52:19 pm
Maybe I get it wrong, but I took a squarewave ( I borrowed my stb-3 today) of 1Mhz, zoom in it measures the edges, zoom out, it measure it too.
But it couldn´t measure more than 200000 edges.



Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 02, 2020, 09:02:56 pm
Maybe I get it wrong, but I took a squarewave ( I borrowed my stb-3 today) of 1Mhz, zoom in it measures the edges, zoom out, it measure it too.
Trolls looking for bugs that ain't there !  ::)

Quote
But it couldn´t measure more than 200000 edges.
Yes and it indicates that.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 02, 2020, 09:09:21 pm
Quote
Yes and it indicates that.

Therefore the third pic.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on March 02, 2020, 10:55:35 pm
At least it's measuring something but this "saturation" is somewhat alarming. I wonder if other measurements like DC and the average etc. calculated from them are also only performed for a part of the measured data.
Besides: does this counter count both edges or did you configure it that way? With only one edge counted, I would have expected 100k edges with 10ms/div and 1MHz square wave.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 02, 2020, 10:59:39 pm
At least it's measuring something but this "saturation" is somewhat alarming. I wonder if other measurements like DC and the average etc. calculated from them are also only performed for a part of the measured data.
Besides: does this counter count both edges or did you configure it that way? With only one edge counted, I would have expected 100k edges with 10ms/div and 1MHz square wave.
And what is the practical use of such a measurement ?  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 02, 2020, 11:06:58 pm
Quote
At least it's measuring something but this "saturation" is somewhat alarming

For me it´s not.
In fact, I only want to measure what´s actually on the screen.
Practice example, triangle waveform, it´s offset.
To measure it right, the whole screen was needing.
And only one period.
This scope can handle it, so no worries whatsoever.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on March 02, 2020, 11:13:56 pm
At least it's measuring something but this "saturation" is somewhat alarming. I wonder if other measurements like DC and the average etc. calculated from them are also only performed for a part of the measured data.
Besides: does this counter count both edges or did you configure it that way? With only one edge counted, I would have expected 100k edges with 10ms/div and 1MHz square wave.
And what is the practical use of such a measurement ?  :-//
Think about tracking math where you can see a demodulated PWM waveform. Or as I wrote before: numerical analysis of a long train of pulses to know the min/max and average. A useful purpose is to measure the time a microcontroller is spending inside an interrupt routine measured over a longer period of time.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 02, 2020, 11:18:19 pm
At least it's measuring something but this "saturation" is somewhat alarming. I wonder if other measurements like DC and the average etc. calculated from them are also only performed for a part of the measured data.
Besides: does this counter count both edges or did you configure it that way? With only one edge counted, I would have expected 100k edges with 10ms/div and 1MHz square wave.
And what is the practical use of such a measurement ?  :-//
Think about tracking math where you can see a demodulated PWM waveform. Or as I wrote before: numerical analysis of a long train of pulses to know the min/max and average. A useful purpose is to measure the time a microcontroller is spending inside an interrupt routine measured over a longer period of time.
Statistics and Histograms are the more appropriate tools for this.
Performa01 posted screenshots using the these functions earlier in this thread I believe.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on March 02, 2020, 11:19:09 pm
In fact, I only want to measure what´s actually on the screen.
"On the screen" is a bit vague. I'm not talking about offscreen data (as there should be any considerable amount of it if at all). But the measurements have to be done from the data buffer and not from some screen presentation of the data (like former Agilents did). The saturation hints towards a limitation of measurements, i.e. not all the data captured (and displayed on the screen) is used for measurements. This is obviously a different approach to speed up the measurements, but one that can make the deep memory measurements invalid and thus unusable for certain applications.
BTW: did you check this in single trigger or normal trigger mode (not stopped/stopped)?

Statistics and Histograms are the more appropriate tools for this.
But those are also devaluated by limiting the measurements to a certain amount. Is this threshold (200k) at least documented somewhere?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on March 02, 2020, 11:28:55 pm
At least it's measuring something but this "saturation" is somewhat alarming. I wonder if other measurements like DC and the average etc. calculated from them are also only performed for a part of the measured data.
Besides: does this counter count both edges or did you configure it that way? With only one edge counted, I would have expected 100k edges with 10ms/div and 1MHz square wave.
And what is the practical use of such a measurement ?  :-//
Think about tracking math where you can see a demodulated PWM waveform. Or as I wrote before: numerical analysis of a long train of pulses to know the min/max and average. A useful purpose is to measure the time a microcontroller is spending inside an interrupt routine measured over a longer period of time.
Statistics and Histograms are the more appropriate tools for this.
But where do the statistics come from if the actual amount of data that can be analysed is limited? You keep thinking too much in terms of periodic signals and not in an entire waveform belonging to a test case which you want to analyse. In my world periodic signals are very uninteresting. The whole point of deep memory is to be able to analyse entire waveforms.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 02, 2020, 11:51:27 pm
Statistics and Histograms are the more appropriate tools for this.
But those are also devaluated by limiting the measurements to a certain amount. Is this threshold (200k) at least documented somewhere?
Have no idea until I get one and I'm not about to investigate it with a 5kX as it may well be different.
Only Martin and other 2kX Plus owners can investigate the perceived limits to simple measurements whereas Statistics and Histograms are live measurements only constrained by the amount of time they are left to accumulate data and show it in the format they do.

If 'counts' are your thing maybe a 10+ digit counter would be a better instrument instead of robbing valuable DSO display real estate with 6+ digit numbers.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on March 03, 2020, 08:24:00 am
The pot is full with a delicious soup, everyone is satisfied.

Only one is looking for the hair in the soup that doesn't exist. The one has to buy the soup he thinks there is no hair in the soup, even if it costs 10 to 20 times more than the tasty, cheap soup the others taste.

It's important to know the limits of the instrument you're using, wouldn't you agree? Especially for statistics, it's important to understand the sample size that is the base for the computation. Only then can you know if the instrument fits the intended use.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on March 03, 2020, 08:35:35 am
Very adult of you to switch to your fake account to support yourself.
Anyway, where exactly are these limitations stated? The only thing I could find in the SDS2000X+ datasheet is the phrase "horizontal measurements can process up to 1000 signal edges within one single frame" - but how does that explain a limitation to 200k edges?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on March 03, 2020, 08:40:48 am
The pot is full with a delicious soup, everyone is satisfied.

Only one is looking for the hair in the soup that doesn't exist. The one has to buy the soup he thinks there is no hair in the soup, even if it costs 10 to 20 times more than the tasty, cheap soup the others taste.

It's important to know the limits of the instrument you're using, wouldn't you agree? Especially for statistics, it's important to understand the sample size that is the base for the computation. Only then can you know if the instrument fits the intended use.


Reading the data sheet helps and then you can buy a device, there are the 30 or 45 days test period at Welectron. There you can try everything and return it if you don't like it.  :palm:

The data sheet is sufficient only if it lists _all_ of the limits of the instrument. But this is never the case. I don't need to buy one myself and go through the hassle of testing every aspect if someone has done that already and shared the results. This is what is happening here. I'm very grateful for this and others will be, too. This is the true value of discussions like this. It's also of immense value for the manufacturers, if they spend the time following.

Nobody here (well, the majority at least) is trying to "find the hair in the soup". This is what you don't seem to understand.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 2N3055 on March 03, 2020, 09:03:56 am
Instead or arguing about how we disagree in our worldviews, back to the topic..

On both Keysight and Picoscope (I don't have Rigol available anymore), you can set thresholds (on Keysight relative and absolute, on Picoscope absolute) of how measurements are done. So if thresholds are wrong, it won't count properly. Could that be the case here?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 03, 2020, 09:21:23 am
Instead or arguing about how we disagree in our worldviews, back to the topic..

On both Keysight and Picoscope (I don't have Rigol available anymore), you can set thresholds (on Keysight relative and absolute, on Picoscope absolute) of how measurements are done. So if thresholds are wrong, it won't count properly. Could that be the case here?
Of course even a marginally set trigger level will affect measurement results however luckily only rookies make such basic mistakes.  :palm:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on March 03, 2020, 12:47:48 pm
Instead or arguing about how we disagree in our worldviews, back to the topic..

On both Keysight and Picoscope (I don't have Rigol available anymore), you can set thresholds (on Keysight relative and absolute, on Picoscope absolute) of how measurements are done. So if thresholds are wrong, it won't count properly. Could that be the case here?
Of course even a marginally set trigger level will affect measurement results however luckily only rookies make such basic mistakes.  :palm:
He means the measurement threshold, not the trigger level.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 2N3055 on March 03, 2020, 01:42:09 pm
Instead or arguing about how we disagree in our worldviews, back to the topic..

On both Keysight and Picoscope (I don't have Rigol available anymore), you can set thresholds (on Keysight relative and absolute, on Picoscope absolute) of how measurements are done. So if thresholds are wrong, it won't count properly. Could that be the case here?
Of course even a marginally set trigger level will affect measurement results however luckily only rookies make such basic mistakes.  :palm:
He means the measurement threshold, not the trigger level.

Yes Nico, correct. Thanks!

Tautech, to clarify, it is a separate measurement thresholds, similar to ones you need to set for decoding. On Picoscope, with DeepMeasure you need to be careful to set it right otherwise you get strange results, because auto-detect doesn't always work well. On Keysight, relative thresholds defaults work really well, and with absolute thresholds you are on your own....
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tom66 on March 03, 2020, 03:04:50 pm
At least it's measuring something but this "saturation" is somewhat alarming. I wonder if other measurements like DC and the average etc. calculated from them are also only performed for a part of the measured data.
Besides: does this counter count both edges or did you configure it that way? With only one edge counted, I would have expected 100k edges with 10ms/div and 1MHz square wave.
And what is the practical use of such a measurement ?  :-//

Measuring average data rates for SPI buses, for instance.

Let's say I want to evaluate how much the delay in my PIC18F system is causing because the processor is very slow (relative to better parts) and I have long delays between packets.  I can set up the Count N-Edges function to count the number of bit cycles on the clock, and divide the figure by 8 to get the byte rate.  This could also be applied to other buses, like I2C where clock stretching of the slave may be used.

It can also be useful in calculating the average frequency of a switching converter that is in pulse-skip mode, as the regular frequency measurement (quite rightly) picks two points and calculates the period between them, whereas you may want to know a more representative average frequency for such a hysteretic function.  Knowing the number of edges or positive pulses over a time base you could get an idea of the switching frequency under low load conditions, which can help advise the choice of input/output filter components. This information can also be applied towards PSRR rejection on any LDOs following buck converter outputs.

You *might* be able to use the frequency counter to do this, but that is no good for you if you want to be able to do these measurements in smaller, specific windows when certain events might occur such as a change in power state of your main processor.

This is not a "show stopper" but it's a disappointing limitation.

For anyone testing this function it's important to note that it only does it on zoomed out data sets. If you zoom in and make the measurement, stop, then zoom out, it works properly (because it has a small data set to look at, perhaps), but that is not a typical use case.

Also, this is a minor comment, but it should show "---" or "??" or equivalent if uncertain about a measurement, instead of "0.00".

BTW, I am not a troll, if that comment was direct at me.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on March 03, 2020, 07:33:21 pm
Hallo, also heute bei Welectron bestellt, sollte es innerhalb einer Woche eintreffen :-)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 2N3055 on March 03, 2020, 08:02:08 pm
Hallo, also heute bei Welectron bestellt, sollte es innerhalb einer Woche eintreffen :-)

Hello, so I ordered from Welectron today, it should arrive within a week :-) ^-^
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope you told your wife too... >:D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on March 03, 2020, 08:24:27 pm
He said, but it was very challenging :-) But in the end I am happy that I will be happy :-) I took advantage of my birthday yesterday :-)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 03, 2020, 08:48:15 pm
Besides: does this counter count both edges or did you configure it that way? With only one edge counted, I would have expected 100k edges with 10ms/div and 1MHz square wave.

Hi,

Both edges.
You can choose between edges, rising edges, falling edges, p-pulses, n-pulses.

For me, it seems to do the right thing what measuring concerns so I´m a little bit confused about the last posts here.
What exactly isn´t right with it ?
I fed in a 1Mhz signal, lower the timebase and it still measures the edges, the lower, more edges was counted.
At the lower timebase pressing stop and zooming in, still the measure works showing of course less edges.
In my opinion, it´s normal behaviour.
If I understand Tom66 right, he´s talking about the opposite that will not work, right ?
Say if you stop at 1ms timebase, you could zoom in but not out to e.g. 200µs ?

Quote
BTW: did you check this in single trigger or normal trigger mode (not stopped/stopped)?

If I remember it right, it was in Auto Mode.



Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Jose Luis on March 03, 2020, 10:34:15 pm
Good afternoon, although I have been following the forum for a while, this is the first time I have decided to comment on a question.
  My experience is rather with old equipment and I do not know if the bandwidth specified by this manufacturer is within the "normal". In old equipment that I have the 100 Mhz goes over 200.
  I am interested in "upgrading" to a digital oscilloscope and this model seems very interesting and affordable, my biggest question is to buy it 100 MHz or 200 MHz. I use it to play at home because I have been working in electronics and informatics for 40 years (low level programming) and I like to make circuits.
  I don't want to spend a lot of money because I understand that these teams age very fast due to the advancement of technology.
Thank you in advance for any comments.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 03, 2020, 10:39:56 pm
Quote
my biggest question is to buy it 100 MHz or 200 MHz.

The answer is as simple as it can get, it depends on what you will need.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 03, 2020, 11:09:22 pm
Good afternoon, although I have been following the forum for a while, this is the first time I have decided to comment on a question.
  My experience is rather with old equipment and I do not know if the bandwidth specified by this manufacturer is within the "normal". In old equipment that I have the 100 Mhz goes over 200.
  I am interested in "upgrading" to a digital oscilloscope and this model seems very interesting and affordable, my biggest question is to buy it 100 MHz or 200 MHz. I use it to play at home because I have been working in electronics and informatics for 40 years (low level programming) and I like to make circuits.
  I don't want to spend a lot of money because I understand that these teams age very fast due to the advancement of technology.
Thank you in advance for any comments.
Welcome to the forum.

As yet I don't think anyone has published the 'real' -3dB point of each model however going on other Siglent models we would expect the 100 MHz model to reach ~120+ MHz, 200 MHz model say ~230 MHz and the 350 MHz model some 370 MHz where at above any of these frequencies only the displayed p-p amplitude and measurement accuracy suffers.

Each should easily trigger and display frequencies well beyond their rated BW albeit at reduced amplitudes.

In a few days I'll have SDS1104X Plus and my 500 MHz AWG back from a mate so I'll post some info about the -3dB point for the 100 MHz model.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on March 04, 2020, 07:15:04 pm
So that's incredible. Yesterday ordered and paid and today I received a mail that is sent DHL. So maybe tomorrow or the day after tomorrow :-) Welectron is really great, including the agreed price :-)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 04, 2020, 07:23:08 pm
Yep, they´re fast as lightening... ;)
My brymen dmm came inbetween 36hrs....
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on March 04, 2020, 09:12:59 pm
I have to say that while waiting for the oscilloscope, I bought a logic analyzer this week and I am delighted at how great this is for EUR 10. Thanks to him, I was able to view the waveform on Arduino with PWM, where my old oscilloscope could not show a longer waveform due to the 4KPts memory. So now I do not have to rush to buy braces that are too expensive and so far I do not need to decode, but only to display the waveforms. I think this is a good addition to Siglent for starters :-)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 04, 2020, 09:17:51 pm
Please write in the common language here, thank you !  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on March 04, 2020, 09:19:11 pm
Sorry, fixed :-)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on March 04, 2020, 09:20:36 pm
The logic analyzer will not show true timing transitions for your signal.  It probably has 10-20MSa/s sample rate.  You need either a DSO with higher sample rate or a professional logic analyzer with over 100MSa/s (You can get vintage used Agilent logic analyzers for around $200 that can do around 400MSa/s)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Jose Luis on March 04, 2020, 11:55:31 pm
Thank you very much Tautech for the comments.

It is a help to establish, within what I need, what I should buy. Any other information will be appreciated.

Greetings and thanks again.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 05, 2020, 12:26:42 am
Thank you very much Tautech for the comments.

It is a help to establish, within what I need, what I should buy. Any other information will be appreciated.

Greetings and thanks again.
You're welcome, that's just what we all do here although at times it does turn into an A brand vs B brand war.  :palm:

While these can be useful when those that post and know their equipment well give info about features/capability which is not always crystal clear in datasheets, however it often leaves a lot of garbage for the reader to wade through to find the 'real meat' on a instrument.
Yet the fine detail in datasheets is what we most use to guide us along with the feature set we require.

I'm quite looking forward to when SDS2104X Plus arrives and the next few days when I can explore its capabilities vs higher and lower models from the Siglent stable.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on March 05, 2020, 05:51:15 pm
So it's home :-) It's a nice toy :-) The first impression of the noise, I expected to be a little quieter. I got the impression that he was really quiet. If I compare it to the old Agielent, Siglent is on a similar level. Here first photo :-)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on March 05, 2020, 06:25:49 pm
Yet the fine detail in datasheets is what we most use to guide us along with the feature set we require.
Well, the really fine details are often in the user manual. The datasheet is often influenced by the marketing department a lot.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 05, 2020, 07:39:24 pm
So it's home :-) It's a nice toy :-) The first impression of the noise, I expected to be a little quieter. I got the impression that he was really quiet. If I compare it to the old Agielent, Siglent is on a similar level. Here first photo :-)
Nice.  :) Will you use a mouse with it ?
Up on the shelf using a mouse for control seems a good solution for your lab.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on March 05, 2020, 08:01:24 pm
I don't know if any mouse and keyboard can be connected, but if so, I'll try and use it. I thought they delivered the keyboard and mouse automatically, but they didn't.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 05, 2020, 08:09:45 pm
You can buy them from the money you saved by the discount... ;)



Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 05, 2020, 08:14:03 pm
I don't know if any mouse and keyboard can be connected, but if so, I'll try and use it.
Just using a mouse can help a lot however I'm not sure how useful they are with gestures like pinch to zoom....I really need to try it.  :-[
A keyboard will be faster for naming screenshots and labeling traces etc than the 'on screen' virtual keyboard however it depends on how often you'll need to use these features.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on March 05, 2020, 08:22:29 pm
I don't know if any mouse and keyboard can be connected, but if so, I'll try and use it.
Just using a mouse can help a lot however I'm not sure how useful they are with gestures like pinch to zoom....I really need to try it.  :-[
A keyboard will be faster for naming screenshots and labeling traces etc than the 'on screen' virtual keyboard however it depends on how often you'll need to use these features.

I guess I would rather solve it via laptop and web server. The one I have tried affects just fine. So I have a keyboard and a mouse :-)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 05, 2020, 09:03:13 pm
I don't know if any mouse and keyboard can be connected, but if so, I'll try and use it.
Just using a mouse can help a lot however I'm not sure how useful they are with gestures like pinch to zoom....I really need to try it.  :-[
A keyboard will be faster for naming screenshots and labeling traces etc than the 'on screen' virtual keyboard however it depends on how often you'll need to use these features.

I guess I would rather solve it via laptop and web server. The one I have tried affects just fine. So I have a keyboard and a mouse :-)
Got your PM.
For now just get to know your new 2kX Plus as you have a big task just to learn all its capabilities and in time there will be more info about what you ask available online.  ;)

I still have to get mine and have a play with it...this weekend I hope !
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on March 05, 2020, 09:03:41 pm
So I have come across the first thing I do not know how to set or it does not work :-( I need to show a slow progress of switching PIR sensor and I have a base of 1s, but I need to render the signal in real time and not after a few seconds. I tried to reduce the memory and it did not help anyway, Agilent renders it slowly online.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on March 05, 2020, 09:10:27 pm
Thanks a lot for the answer. I'm glad you have this information and I'm looking forward to it. I do not want to waste AWG testing for the time being, when there is only 30 times the possibility to run.

Next, I'm posting a video of the problem I described above. Can it be viewed as Agilent?
https://youtu.be/Ab7wBVOrEAw
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 05, 2020, 09:10:48 pm
So I have come across the first thing I do not know how to set or it does not work :-( I need to show a slow progress of switching PIR sensor and I have a base of 1s, but I need to render the signal in real time and not after a few seconds. I tried to reduce the memory and it did not help anyway, Agilent renders it slowly online.
For slow timebase settings you have 2 options, Auto Roll mode activates at settings slower than 50ms/div and dedicated Roll mode accessible with the front panel Roll button.
Use plenty of memory and let the scope decide the depth to use. I always use the max memory setting.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on March 05, 2020, 09:15:10 pm
Perfect :-) Works exactly as I needed :-) Actually better than Agilent. I was worried that Siglent was lagging behind :-)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 05, 2020, 09:29:45 pm
Just using a mouse can help a lot

True, but...interesting….I like more to use the touchscreen - Which is somekind of funny for someone who didn´t like tablets….
But it offers a nice test also, I´ll check it on the weekend.
The little response lag between touching an element and activate it - Will it be gone by using the mouse…
Must test it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 05, 2020, 10:23:37 pm
Just using a mouse can help a lot

True, but...interesting….I like more to use the touchscreen - Which is somekind of funny for someone who didn´t like tablets….
But it offers a nice test also, I´ll check it on the weekend.
The little response lag between touching an element and activate it - Will it be gone by using the mouse…
Must test it.
Each to their own however bench layout and space requirements often dictate how/where you might use and place a scope.
SDS5054X used exclusively with a mouse and keyboard:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=944252)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on March 05, 2020, 10:53:03 pm
So tidy just got twice a year:-D Very beautiful
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 05, 2020, 11:34:14 pm
So tidy just got twice a year:-D Very beautiful
That's not my bench by any chance !  :palm:

It's a customers bench when he was part way through setting it up for the new job he had. Nice his new boss let him buy some nice tools.   :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: maginnovision on March 05, 2020, 11:51:36 pm
So tidy just got twice a year:-D Very beautiful
That's not my bench by any chance !  :palm:

It's a customers bench when he was part way through setting it up for the new job he had. Nice his new boss let him buy some nice tools.   :)

 :-DD Was he waiting to set the nice ones up? Just kidding.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 06, 2020, 12:20:12 am
So tidy just got twice a year:-D Very beautiful
That's not my bench by any chance !  :palm:

It's a customers bench when he was part way through setting it up for the new job he had. Nice his new boss let him buy some nice tools.   :)

 :-DD Was he waiting to set the nice ones up?
Yeah not impressed with the soldering gear he selected when it might've been Metcal or Pace.
Quote
Just kidding.
I'm not !  :P
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: maginnovision on March 06, 2020, 12:22:17 am
Yea, an 888 definitely looks out of place. The Hakko hot air units also aren't anything to write home about. The fume extractor is ok though.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 08, 2020, 08:26:33 pm
To transport my siglent safety to work ( train, bus) and to keep it away from dust, I´ve just bought this here:

https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00H25JMPK/ref=pe_3044161_185740101_TE_item (https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00H25JMPK/ref=pe_3044161_185740101_TE_item)

Hope, I´ve choosed the right size - I hate sending things back... ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Pinkus on March 09, 2020, 08:36:00 am
Hope, I´ve choosed the right size - I hate sending things back... ;)
Probably too small as you also have to store power cable, probes etc. and you want to have enough foam protection around the scope. I guess I would've bought the type 5000 instead.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jmag999 on March 09, 2020, 12:48:23 pm
Does anyone know if this scope is capable of recording a video of the screen for some period of time (to a usb stick, for example)?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on March 09, 2020, 01:05:27 pm
The only scope I know that can record video is the micsig. 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: maginnovision on March 09, 2020, 04:18:40 pm
Yea, any scope with a web interface you'll be able to record a video even if it's not an explicit feature.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 09, 2020, 05:47:02 pm
Quote
Maybe someone has an even simpler suggestion.

Videocam.  ;)

Quote
I guess I would've bought the type 5000 instead.

Hm-hm....makes me nervous, case should arrive in the next hours.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 09, 2020, 07:05:13 pm
Does anyone know if this scope is capable of recording a video of the screen for some period of time (to a usb stick, for example)?
Real actual use case ?
There might be more than one way of skinning this cat.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 09, 2020, 08:38:59 pm
Quote
case should arrive in the next hours.

Yepp, it´s too small - The siglent fits but without any space...Return to sender and buying the next greater version.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 10, 2020, 01:23:32 am
New arrival but too busy for a bit to even unbox it.  ::)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=946538)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Frex on March 10, 2020, 05:13:22 am
Hello Tautech,

Maybe it would be a time now to make a  full review of this scope, no ?  ;D
I wait for this, but nothing appear yet, i saw only commercial short movies...
It seems that would interest lot of people here.
(even if, i know, somebodies tell that it's "same" as SDS5000).

Frex
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on March 10, 2020, 08:38:06 am
Even if I preferred to buy another model, I find this oscilloscope very interesting and I also don't understand why there is no review on this one.
Siglent could sell a lot more if there was a little more advertising on this model.

I don't know the numbers but Rigol must sell tons of MSO5000, and at the same time, apart from this topic, nobody knows how perform the SDS2000X+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 10, 2020, 09:58:32 am
Hello Tautech,

Maybe it would be a time now to make a  full review of this scope, no ?  ;D
Frex
Not by me sorry as it might seem biased.  ;)
Plus as yet only some 30 mins have been spent with it and it's still getting to know me.  :)
Even if I preferred to buy another model, I find this oscilloscope very interesting and I also don't understand why there is no review on this one.
Siglent could sell a lot more if there was a little more advertising on this model.
Most unfortunate was the release timing just before the Chinese Spring festival and then to have a further 2 weeks lockdown due to the virus before more units could be manufactured and shipped to satisfy the apparent demand. Add to this the current shipping delays and it all couldn't have been planned much worse.  >:(

It is an interesting DSO, very like the SDS5000X (yes I have both) with a wealth of capability and in the short time playing with it quite intuitive to use ....but I already have some 5000X experience to call on.  ;)

A local YouTuber will have this one soon to satisfy curiosities.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 10, 2020, 10:04:18 am
Some investigations of the inbuilt 50 MHz AWG sine wave at max p-p output and max frequency into 50 ohms.
Peak hold 2Mpts FFT with markers on harmonics.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=946610)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on March 10, 2020, 10:18:16 am
New arrival but too busy for a bit to even unbox it.  ::)

Have you decontaminated it? ?

It is an interesting DSO, very like the SDS5000X (yes I have both) with a wealth of capability and in the short time playing with it quite intuitive to use ....but I already have some 5000X experience to call on.  ;)

Since they run the same software they should look and feel pretty much the same.

I think that is a great bonus for the SDS2k+.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 10, 2020, 10:31:52 am
New arrival but too busy for a bit to even unbox it.  ::)

Have you decontaminated it? ?
Oh hell and I've been opening Siglent boxes all afternoon !  :scared:   :-DD
Took 3+ weeks to get here so it should be safe however this one is a low SN# and made back in December.  :phew:

It is an interesting DSO, very like the SDS5000X (yes I have both) with a wealth of capability and in the short time playing with it quite intuitive to use ....but I already have some 5000X experience to call on.  ;)

Since they run the same software they should look and feel pretty much the same.

I think that is a great bonus for the SDS2k+.
There are a few little things I've spotted are different however as the 5000X apparently will import some of the 2000X Plus FW they are likely to become more alike in some respects. (according to Performa01 early in this thread)
Debug code is the same and USB tricks equivalent too.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on March 10, 2020, 10:42:29 am
Took 3+ weeks to get here so it should be safe however this one is a low SN# and made back in December.  :phew:

Oh, you asked for DHL-Quarantine Shipping ?   :D


I've never played with this equipment but I like it. I think it covers a sweet spot very hard to beat!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on March 10, 2020, 12:12:30 pm
Even if I preferred to buy another model, I find this oscilloscope very interesting and I also don't understand why there is no review on this one.
Siglent could sell a lot more if there was a little more advertising on this model.

I don't know the numbers but Rigol must sell tons of MSO5000, and at the same time, apart from this topic, nobody knows how perform the SDS2000X+

Please go to the top of this post. Performa1 has already shown many beautiful things.

Hello,

I saw Performa1's beautifull screeshots !
But It is also nice to see the instrument in video to have a better understanding of its ergonomics and how it performs against competitor on same signals.
If I had no interest in ergonomics or responsiveness, I would have bought a Picoscope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on March 10, 2020, 07:24:26 pm
I also tried AWG and was surprised that the 10 MHz square wave looked like a sine. Everywhere AWG praise and then this. I am a bit afraid to order AWG a whole new function generator if it would work similarly. Do you have a good experience with a generator or similar that can handle even higher frequencies and is not a wallet killer?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on March 10, 2020, 08:02:18 pm
Can you please post a picture of the 10MHz square wave?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 10, 2020, 08:11:14 pm
I won´t believe it, so I have done it too…

And again: On the usb stick there are six screenshots - But if you put it into the siglent and take a shot, it will always overwrite png1 instead of going ahead with png7, 8, etc...

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on March 10, 2020, 08:19:03 pm
I won´t believe it, so I have done it too…

And again: On the usb stick there are six screenshots - But if you put it into the siglent and take a shot, it will always overwrite png1 instead of going ahead with png7, 8, etc...

You don't believe it, but right?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on March 10, 2020, 08:20:02 pm
Use a direct BNC connection and switch to 50Ohm.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on March 10, 2020, 08:23:28 pm
This is what the 10MHz square wave of the KMoon DY6800 DDS looks like.

BNC direct connection and 50Ohm were used. The AWG was also used BNC (otherwise perhaps not) and 1MOhm but 50Ohm does not paint better.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on March 10, 2020, 08:27:37 pm
What is the rise time?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 10, 2020, 08:29:25 pm
In he first screenshot, you didn´t used the 50Ohm input - I´ve used it, have a look at the pic.

Quote
KMoon DY6800 DDS

Well.... ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 10, 2020, 08:38:55 pm
Quote
What is the rise time?

Appx 25ns
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Svrbinek on March 10, 2020, 08:46:58 pm
Yes, in the first frame it was not used on the screen, it was used additionally and the rendering is the same except the amplitude. And that's why I ask. is it supposed to look like that? If so, what does it look like at much higher frequencies?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 10, 2020, 08:49:30 pm
Quote
is it supposed to look like that?

It´s not the scope´s "fault" if you meant this.
With a leo bodnar 10Mhz pulse you get much "sharper" edges, depending on the bandwith of the used scope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on March 10, 2020, 09:00:54 pm
Yes, in the first frame it was not used on the screen, it was used additionally and the rendering is the same except the amplitude. And that's why I ask. is it supposed to look like that? If so, what does it look like at much higher frequencies?

The datasheet isn't terribly precise about the bandwidth of the AWG, it only says 50MHz max frequency and 125MSa/s. Maybe a 10MHz square wave is already pushing its limits?

Not familiar with the instrument, but it doesn't look like the 20MHz bandwidth limit was engaged?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on March 10, 2020, 09:17:04 pm
Square wave max frequency is 10MHz... and it says <24ns rise time
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 10, 2020, 09:19:45 pm
Quote
With a leo bodnar 10Mhz pulse you get much "sharper" edges, depending on the bandwith of the used scope.

See:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2887404/#msg2887404 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2887404/#msg2887404)

Quote
Not familiar with the instrument, but it doesn't look like the 20MHz bandwidth limit was engaged?

As I saw his post, I took my scope and reproduce it, with 50Ohm selected and full bandwith.
The internal awg is simple worse in that case and don´t bother me at all.
We all know there´s no alternative to a stand-alone awg yet.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: maginnovision on March 10, 2020, 09:56:13 pm
We all know there´s no alternative to a stand-alone awg yet.

Sure, but that's still shockingly poor.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 10, 2020, 10:02:38 pm
I simply ignore this function.
Maybe some scopes have a suitable awg in-built, but the fact there was no more than 2.5vpp amplitude output level makes it uninteresting in general.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on March 10, 2020, 10:59:34 pm
Siglent is charging a significant amount of money for the built-in AWG and they have expertise on standalone waveform generators, why screw it by building a low quality one inside the unit?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 11, 2020, 12:15:17 am
Certainly rise time for square and pulse waveforms are nothing to write home about as I've checked them at several frequencies and even in pulse mode they remain ~25ns.

However on the BW -3dB point a nice surprise that initially I thought I'd made errors trying to measure.
Yet after many checks of setup of what I was seeing on the display I can inform the -3dB point for SDS2104X Plus is some 185 MHz.  :o

Sinewave ex SDG6022X, 50 ohm output and input termination. 600mm unknown quality BNC.
1V level set @ 10 MHz as shown by cursors.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=947188)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: NoisyBoy on March 11, 2020, 02:54:51 am
Cheap cable or defective scope?  That can’t be right.

How about testing the same setup on your SDS5000X?  I presume all bandwidth filters are off?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 11, 2020, 08:19:24 am
Cheap cable or defective scope?  That can’t be right.
You're quite right, a cheap unknown cable gives misleading results......lower than for good cables !  :P
1 GHz rated BNC's and 6 GHz N type with adapters also used.

Quote
How about testing the same setup on your SDS5000X? 
Frequency and levels values checked against SDS5054X SDS5104X for three yes three sine wave generators each capable of 200+ MHz, SDG6022X, SSG3021X and an old HP8654B.

However all results ~+ 5% on 185 MHz for the SDS2104X Plus -3dB point which is darn impressive for a 100 MHz DSO. However until others confirm these measurements all you have is my report, take it or leave it.

Quote
I presume all bandwidth filters are off?
Interestly with the 200 MHz BW filter ON in the SDS5054X the result was quite similar which IMO adds to increased confidence in the measurements obtained.
YMMV
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Pl
Post by: NoisyBoy on March 11, 2020, 08:52:23 am
My mistake!  I thought your scope was the 350MHz model, 185MHz -3dB point is darn impressive for a 100MHz scope!

I do hope Siglent can improve on the AWG though, this is one area where the Rigol MSO5000 is superior.  The 10MHz square wave on it looks decent with a 12ns rise time.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on March 11, 2020, 08:56:45 am
It's great but it is not impressive in my opinion.
The frontend is able to handle 350Mhz and/or 500 on 2 channels.

Siglent is generous with the BW filter but I think I have read similar results among competitors on this forum.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 11, 2020, 09:25:15 am
I do hope Siglent can improve on the AWG though, this is one area where the Rigol MSO5000 is superior.  The 10MHz square wave on it looks decent with a 12ns rise time.
Yes maybe they can or maybe it's some risetime HW limitation IDK.
However the SDS2kX Plus AWG is a 50 MHz unit so I fail to see why you call it inferior.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on March 11, 2020, 10:28:04 am
Square wave max frequency is 10MHz... and it says <24ns rise time

That would hint a bandwidth only marginally better than 10 MHz for square wave (0.35 / 24ns,  0.015 GHz). No wonder it looks mostly like a sine wave.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on March 11, 2020, 10:34:11 am
I do hope Siglent can improve on the AWG though, this is one area where the Rigol MSO5000 is superior.  The 10MHz square wave on it looks decent with a 12ns rise time.
Yes maybe they can or maybe it's some risetime HW limitation IDK.
However the SDS2kX Plus AWG is a 50 MHz unit so I fail to see why you call it inferior.  :-//


Without looking at numbers, It seems that the MSO5000 has better 10Mhz square wave.
Maybe thanks to its better sampling rate ?

I never tried the inbult AWG on my MSO5000
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on March 11, 2020, 11:04:00 am
I don't mind the crappy 10MHz square wave, I can generate a better one that fits my need using a microcontroller... but lack of modulation is a big mistake.  They are charging a lot of money for the AWG option.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 11, 2020, 08:30:27 pm
Quote
but lack of modulation is a big mistake.

I think, it could be realizing by firmware upgrade.

Below the specs of the siglent and rigol built-in awg.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: EEVblog on March 12, 2020, 01:36:01 am
A Siglent SDS2000X-E just turned up in my lab unannounced.
So they now have the SDS2000X, SDS2000X-E, and the SDS2000X+  :-//
I'm clearly not keep up with the times...
How out of date am I? Judging by the number of posts in this thread, it seems quite a lot...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: NoisyBoy on March 12, 2020, 02:39:53 am
Hey Dave,

It would be very interesting if you would do a tear-down and compare it against other scopes on this market segment.  There are a lot of good discussions about this scope from a small group of owners, but no teardown as far as I know.  I would love to know the construction and the quality of the components in the scope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 12, 2020, 02:48:47 am
A Siglent SDS2000X-E just turned up in my lab unannounced.
So they now have the SDS2000X, SDS2000X-E, and the SDS2000X+  :-//
I'm clearly not keep up with the times...
How out of date am I?
Only a bit over a year behind:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-e/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-e/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: EEVblog on March 12, 2020, 04:37:46 am
It would be very interesting if you would do a tear-down and compare it against other scopes on this market segment.  There are a lot of good discussions about this scope from a small group of owners, but no teardown as far as I know.  I would love to know the construction and the quality of the components in the scope.

Can do.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 12, 2020, 06:13:12 am
Excellent !  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: miyagi on March 12, 2020, 09:44:44 am
Hello, I really want to upgrade my scope now. I am hesitating between MSO5074 and SDS2104X Plus. I am keen to the Siglent after saw Martin's posts. But MSO5074 can be upgraded. So hard to decide now.  Martin, can you or tv84 confirm and share the trick? Thank you!
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: DL2XY on March 12, 2020, 08:36:17 pm
Just found a bug in FFT:  Cursor readouts (X-axis) are incorrect.
Someone who can confirm?
[attach=1]
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 12, 2020, 08:44:07 pm
Hi,

Would test it tomorrow and report here.

Quote
Martin, can you or tv84 confirm and share the trick?

What trick ?

Quote
So hard to decide now.

Keep in mind, that the sds2104x+ costs 500 bucks more than a mso5074.
If this is no problem, well….
The pros and cons between these scopes from my sight I´ve posted several times ago.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: MT on March 12, 2020, 09:12:37 pm
However all results ~+ 5% on 185 MHz for the SDS2104X Plus -3dB point which is darn impressive for a 100 MHz DSO.

Thats interesting indeed but isnt that due to the 500Mhz input stage (2204x) with software controlled band limiting turned on just as 1104x is a band limited 1204x?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 12, 2020, 09:36:22 pm
Do you have a conversation to them ?
Since I´ve own the sds2000x+, I´ve tried it two times and still got no answer from them... :--
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thm_w on March 12, 2020, 09:41:03 pm
Thats interesting indeed but isnt that due to the 500Mhz input stage (2204x) with software controlled band limiting turned on just as 1104x is a band limited 1204x?

Sure, but why limit the band to 180MHz? Its generously 80% over spec. Typically you'd see a 100MHz scope limited to say 120-140MHz, enough to ensure it meets the minimum specs in all use cases. Maybe they realize no one cares at this point.

LMH6518 (https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lmh6518.pdf) has band limits of 20, 100, 200, 350, 650, 700. But I don't know if anyone is still using that IC.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 12, 2020, 09:44:21 pm
However all results ~+ 5% on 185 MHz for the SDS2104X Plus -3dB point which is darn impressive for a 100 MHz DSO.

Thats interesting indeed but isnt that due to the 500Mhz input stage (2204x) with software controlled band limiting turned on just as 1104x is a band limited 1204x?
Nope, the SDS2104X Plus I have here is just as it came from the factory so the SW BW limiting is for the 100 MHz version although as you say the inputs are designed for 500 MHz.

So while the analog input path may manage high frequencies perfectly fine the BW setting and filtering stages set the frequency rolloff particular to a model which in the case of SDS2104X Plus as we've found is high for a DSO of this class.

Dave did a related video on how amplitude and BW are controlled in a single chip:
https://www.eevblog.com/2019/07/10/eevblog-1228-do-digital-scopes-have-real-verniers/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2019/07/10/eevblog-1228-do-digital-scopes-have-real-verniers/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 12, 2020, 10:16:40 pm
Hi,

Quote
Where do you send your requests to, maybe you send them to a wrong address?

To this one:

https://www.siglenteu.com/contact-us/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/contact-us/)


Quote
Maybe your mails get stuck in spam?

Maybe, my adress ended with @gmx.de




Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: MT on March 12, 2020, 10:19:13 pm
However all results ~+ 5% on 185 MHz for the SDS2104X Plus -3dB point which is darn impressive for a 100 MHz DSO.

Thats interesting indeed but isnt that due to the 500Mhz input stage (2204x) with software controlled band limiting turned on just as 1104x is a band limited 1204x?
Nope, the SDS2104X Plus I have here is just as it came from the factory so the SW BW limiting is for the 100 MHz version although as you say the inputs are designed for 500 MHz.
Im not entirely sure i understood the nope part.

Quote
So while the analog input path may manage high frequencies perfectly fine the BW setting and filtering stages set the frequency rolloff particular to a model which in the case of SDS2104X Plus as we've found is high for a DSO of this class.

So what you said there is what i meant, i.e the bandwidth is there but limited by software function,
so the 2104x should, as the 1104x, be able to be uphacked if software enables that i presume, right?
 
Quote
Dave did a related video on how amplitude and BW are controlled in a single chip:
https://www.eevblog.com/2019/07/10/eevblog-1228-do-digital-scopes-have-real-verniers/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2019/07/10/eevblog-1228-do-digital-scopes-have-real-verniers/)
Im aware of that video, i dont see Dave talk about BW only the VGA and its BW is quite flat on all gains. Do the 2104x+ use the AD8370 as well?

Sure, but why limit the band to 180MHz? Its generously 80% over spec. Typically you'd see a 100MHz scope limited to say 120-140MHz, enough to ensure it meets the minimum specs in all use cases. Maybe they realize no one cares at this point.

LMH6518 (https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lmh6518.pdf) has band limits of 20, 100, 200, 350, 650, 700. But I don't know if anyone is still using that IC.
Yep, why leave it at 184Mhz? no idea really. 1104x seams to use HMCAD1511. BW limiting circuitry are unique to LMH6518 while AD8370 dont have that. https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/hmcad1511.pdf (https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/hmcad1511.pdf)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 12, 2020, 10:31:34 pm
Quote
This is wrong.

Aha.

If this (siglenteu located in hamburg, germany) is the wrong contact, shouldn´t they tell me about it instead of doing nothing ?




Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 12, 2020, 10:51:12 pm
So while the analog input path may manage high frequencies perfectly fine the BW setting and filtering stages set the frequency rolloff particular to a model which in the case of SDS2104X Plus as we've found is high for a DSO of this class.

So what you said there is what i meant, i.e the bandwidth is there but limited by software function,
so the 2104x should, as the 1104x, be able to be uphacked if software enables that i presume, right?
 
Quote
Dave did a related video on how amplitude and BW are controlled in a single chip:
https://www.eevblog.com/2019/07/10/eevblog-1228-do-digital-scopes-have-real-verniers/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2019/07/10/eevblog-1228-do-digital-scopes-have-real-verniers/)
Im aware of that video, i dont see Dave talk about BW only the VGA and its BW is quite flat on all gains. Do the 2104x+ use the AD8370 as well?
Maybe, we'll all know soon enough when a teardown is done.
So what you said there is what i meant, i.e the bandwidth is there but limited by software function,
so the 2104x should, as the 1104x, be able to be uphacked if software enables that i presume, right?
Yes, members here already have these hacked and seem shy on disclosing too much in case the door gets closed tighter. However I have been told it's not as straightforward as the 1000X-E models.
More.....sorry you'll have to get that from other members.  :-X
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: miyagi on March 13, 2020, 01:11:41 am
Hi Martin, yes, I know differences between these two scopes. But I want to know how to upgrade SDS2104X Plus to 350MHz or even 500 MHz, and unlock the software options. I saw tv84 posted the result and you upgraded your 2104 too. But didn't show how to do it. I know the telnet way, but don't have the unit to check. If you can share how you upgraded your 2104, I will be appreciated.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 13, 2020, 07:40:36 am
Quote
This is wrong.

Aha.

If this (siglenteu located in hamburg, germany) is the wrong contact, shouldn´t they tell me about it instead of doing nothing ?

So Siglent in Hamburg is correct, but you are using America's email address, take a close look. The hamburger looks very different. Look again carefully.

This adresss is wrong "https://www.siglenteu.com/contact-us/" do they even exist? Is it from the USA?
The link above should work as it's posted on a few of Siglent's webpages but if in doubt use the links provided on the HQ page:
https://int.siglent.com/contact/ (https://int.siglent.com/contact/)
This lists the contact emails for each marketing region.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 14, 2020, 08:52:53 am
A few more minutes investigations..... Power Analysis.
Menu of analysis types:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=949122)

After selecting Switching Loss or for that matter any of the analysis types a probe connection guide for each type is available as below.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=949126)

A further improvement might be to label the guide window with the analysis type. This I will send through as a feature request/improvement.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 14, 2020, 08:54:39 pm
A look at Digital.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=949346)

The data display line can be placed wherever you choose with the touch display or a mouse. Digital is much nicer viewed with graticules OFF.
Unlike other Siglent models 2kX Plus has a dedicated Zoom button used for entering and exiting Zoom mode.
In Zoom mode the active timebase is surrounded with a dotted line and we can toggle between unzoomed and zoomed display portions with a press of the timebase knob for adjustments of either without having to leave the zoomed display.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 14, 2020, 09:04:21 pm
Hi,

After you could play with it a little bit, what are your thoughts on it ?
Is it the "little brother" of the flagship sds5000 and taking therefore the scond place of the siglent scope hierarchy or are some things "better"or "worser" in comparison, also what older models concerns ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 15, 2020, 06:42:35 am
After you could play with it a little bit, what are your thoughts on it ?
It's a very nice DSO for the price, well the 100 MHz version is but they jump up $ from there. Still, it has a good range of analytical capability and effectively has 3 UI's with touch, mouse or the physical controls.

Quote
Is it the "little brother" of the flagship sds5000 and taking therefore the second place of the siglent scope hierarchy or are some things "better"or "worser" in comparison, also what older models concerns ?
In some ways SDS2kX Plus has the edge on SDS5kX particularly in the front panel layout which has been given more thought and departed a little from Siglent's traditional layout.
Until the feature set if further aligned it's not fair to prefer one UI over the other as there's little reason why they won't in time be very similar.

One does notice how the lesser used Search, Navigate, History and Decode buttons are placed at the bottom which allows for a better front panel layout than SDS5kX for the more often used controls although with 2kX Plus it's not long before one is tempted to try a mouse and soon you find yourself using all 3 UI's and it's nice to have the choice however everyone will have preferences to what suits them best.
How do you find yourself using yours Martin ?

I really haven't spent lots of time with this 2104X Plus but enough to display some level of proficiency when I get to demonstrate it to customers.

All in all 5kX and 2kX Plus are both fairly feature rich DSO's and trialling either for less than a couple of days would do them each a disservice.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: KeBeNe on March 15, 2020, 09:47:29 am
Hi there,
I also made measurements on the SDS2104X +, these are about the same as Tautech's.
RF source: R&S SMT06, 1Vpeak to peak / 50ohm RF (around 4.6dbm), measured 3db points:
C1 = 175Mhz;
C2 = 184Mhz;
C3 = 178Mhz;
C4 = 183Mhz;

and again the complete frequency response from 10Khz to 1Ghz, 0dbm signal on C1 in 50ohm mode
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 15, 2020, 11:27:03 am
I think, I´ve already mentioned here:

It would be helpful when the function channel in it´s "box" would show which function is selected and from which source (channel).[attachimg=1]

Edit like this: [attachimg=2]

(Taken from lecroy ws3000/siglent sds3000)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: KeBeNe on March 15, 2020, 11:29:56 am
I made another frequency response sweep, this time with an SDS2354 + with 500Mhz option
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 15, 2020, 11:36:12 am
So "we" got "real" 500Mhz scopes... 8)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: KeBeNe on March 15, 2020, 11:36:53 am
Hello,

There are also some bugs with the markers, I think Siglent will fix that step by step...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 15, 2020, 01:32:47 pm
How do you find yourself using yours Martin ?

Want to try to use it more with a mouse, somtimes it´s more comfortabler (and more precise) than touch - And you musn´t often clean the screen...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on March 15, 2020, 01:49:54 pm
I made another frequency response sweep, this time with an SDS2354 + with 500Mhz option

Try to show us where you have the -3dB mark.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on March 15, 2020, 02:01:13 pm
Hi there,
I also made measurements on the SDS2104X +, these are about the same as Tautech's.
RF source: R&S SMT06, 1Vpeak to peak / 50ohm RF (around 4.6dbm), measured 3db points:
C1 = 175Mhz;
C2 = 184Mhz;
C3 = 178Mhz;
C4 = 183Mhz;

and again the complete frequency response from 10Khz to 1Ghz, 0dbm signal on C1 in 50ohm mode
Are you using the FRA tool in the SDS2104X+ scope?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 15, 2020, 06:55:35 pm
I think, I´ve already mentioned here:

It would be helpful when the function channel in it´s "box" would show which function is selected and from which source (channel). (Attachment Link)

Edit like this: (Attachment Link)

(Taken from lecroy ws3000/siglent sds3000)
Yes adding to the channel tab the name/type of Math by default will be useful however SDS2kX Plus gives us the option to name any/all of the traces on the display using the inbuilt virtual keyboard.

So yes there is room for further polishing but what we have already is sufficient if only we chose to use it.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 15, 2020, 07:18:51 pm
Well....
In this case by default was the easier way instead and it shouldn´t be that great thing to implementing it.
Hope you´ll forwarded this.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: KeBeNe on March 16, 2020, 02:16:02 am
Are you using the FRA tool in the SDS2104X+ scope?

Hello,

no, i´m  set the RF Source to sweep mode (10Khz to 1Ghz, Step 10Khz, Dwell 50ms) an set the Sds2KX+ to FFT and peak hold

@TV84
the -3db is around 580Mhz
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: pipe2null on March 16, 2020, 05:58:28 pm
So it seems that measured BW is a good data point to add to the comparison of (improved) SDS2kX+ vs MSO5000...  Some people claimed the 350MHz (improved) Rigol was around 480MHz BW, but that was measured with a pulse.  AFAIK no one did an actual frequency sweep and posted it to the forum.  But then again, there is a ridiculous number of posts on that model and I probably missed something...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on March 16, 2020, 06:15:22 pm
The SDS2000X+ is very attrative....but the MSO5000 was released 1.5 years ago.
At least 50% of post are related to hacking or how to hack  ;D
It costs less, some people here are working on cheap logic probe, 2 x more GSa/s, vertical control for all channels, comes with 350Mhz probes.

The MSO still have some nice feature : better math function I think, HDMI output, more trigger, more wfms/s ( but Martin72 have to measure that for science >:D ).

You have to make the choice according to your needs and priorities, but I'm not sure that Rigol is very worried.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 16, 2020, 06:17:30 pm
So it seems that measured BW is a good data point to add to the comparison of (improved) SDS2kX+ vs MSO5000...  Some people claimed the 350MHz (improved) Rigol was around 480MHz BW, but that was measured with a pulse.  AFAIK no one did an actual frequency sweep and posted it to the forum.  But then again, there is a ridiculous number of posts on that model and I probably missed something...
Those that have swept SDS2354X Plus have done so with the 500 MHz option enabled so no contest against any 350 MHz rated DSO.......apples vs oranges.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: KeBeNe on March 16, 2020, 06:35:41 pm
So it seems that measured BW is a good data point to add to the comparison of (improved) SDS2kX+ vs MSO5000...  Some people claimed the 350MHz (improved) Rigol was around 480MHz BW, but that was measured with a pulse.  AFAIK no one did an actual frequency sweep and posted it to the forum.  But then again, there is a ridiculous number of posts on that model and I probably missed something...

i posted a sweep here -> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2134381/#msg2134381 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2134381/#msg2134381)


I have the Rigol MSO 5K, an SDS2KX and SDS2KX +

the Rigol really has a lot of functions, 8Gs etc., but somehow the Rigol doesn't run as smoothly as Siglent, it hangs from time to time.
I think it's underdeveloped.
Maybe Rigol makes the MSO5K a nice scope, but it is currently at the bottom of my ranking.

That only corresponds to my experience and opinion.

best regards René
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: pipe2null on March 16, 2020, 07:14:48 pm
i posted a sweep here -> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2134381/#msg2134381 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2134381/#msg2134381)

Thanks, I missed that one.

Those that have swept SDS2354X Plus have done so with the 500 MHz option enabled so no contest against any 350 MHz rated DSO.......apples vs oranges.  ;)

True.  My comment was more from the perspective of current "hack-champion".  The MSO5k is still the winner due to base model price plus a few features, but the additional $ to get the SDS2kX+ comes with real HW value and not just a better UI and stability, etc.  The spec difference is one thing, but seeing the actual measured BW results posted here makes me scratch my chin a bit more and encourages me to find more excuses to rationalize the extra $ for the SDS2kX+.   >:D

I have a fully "upgraded" MSO5072 on my bench now.  I've been debating over the past few months about switching to the SDS2kX+ for similar reasons as Martin72 did.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 16, 2020, 07:57:34 pm
Those that have swept SDS2354X Plus have done so with the 500 MHz option enabled so no contest against any 350 MHz rated DSO.......apples vs oranges.  ;)

True.  My comment was more from the perspective of current "hack-champion".  The MSO5k is still the winner due to base model price plus a few features, but the additional $ to get the SDS2kX+ comes with real HW value and not just a better UI and stability, etc.  The spec difference is one thing, but seeing the actual measured BW results posted here makes me scratch my chin a bit more and encourages me to find more excuses to rationalize the extra $ for the SDS2kX+.   >:D

I have a fully "upgraded" MSO5072 on my bench now.  I've been debating over the past few months about switching to the SDS2kX+ for similar reasons as Martin72 did.
IMO it's a bit more complex than just base price vs BW hackability as the option suite available should have some bearing on any DSO selected.
Hell if you just need 350 MHz the 'upgraded' SDS2202X-E for $619 can do that.  :P
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 16, 2020, 08:17:31 pm
The MSO still have some nice feature : better math function I think, HDMI output, more trigger, more wfms/s ( but Martin72 have to measure that for science >:D ).

"Better" math....more math - But this could be "corrected" via fw upgrade if siglent want it.
HDMI Output, indeed nice - If you need it.
But you could also use the webserver for presentation so no worry at all.
More trigger….have to look at it.
But it got indeed more wfms/s, up to over 500000 wfms/s in normal mode, I´ve meausered it months ago on work.
Want to take the siglent at work also, but we´re very busy since beginning of the year so I didn´t it so far.
Took a rigol ds1054z at home to measure the wfms/s of the 2k+, but the results were irritating (much less than 120000 and very instable) and I want to measure it again with another scope.

The rigol 5000 is a raw diamond, no question.
But i've been waiting over a year for them to sharpen it into a real diamond.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: NoisyBoy on March 16, 2020, 10:02:51 pm
X2, I have always thought Rigol put some OK-decent hardware in the MSO5000, but its firmware development is woefully inadequate to support the new hardware.  They may be OK in servicing scopes like the 1000Z series, where hardware is simpler, and lower price also results in lower expectation.  But they are definitely not remotely ready for prime time when it comes to the 5000/7000/8000 series.  Coding quality and testing aside, things as simple as the readme file in the firmware update conveys the quality of the documentations you find in a cheap $80 AWG.  The sad part is I don't think Rigol cares, and certainly has shown no attempt to improve.

Rigol should consider just outsourcing its entire firmware development to the western world, and just focus on the hardware and manufacturing.  If they understand the concept of core competence in the west, they would have scuttle their firmware and software team and "offshore" the development elsewhere.

So, if I have to choose between the two scopes, I would agree Siglent is the more polished and far better supported brand.  Yes, it cost more, but potentially a much less frustrating scope to work with in the long run.  To me, it is well worth the extra price.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 16, 2020, 10:26:02 pm
You nailed it exactly….
The rigol 5000 could be such a pricebreaker with it´s specs, only rigol itself and it´s software are show-stopping it massive.
Then the siglent 2k+ came along….
Sure it got it´s bugs too and hopefully it will got some of nice to haves in the future - But I´m slightly sure siglent will manage it and bring this thing to a level others could dream about.
Yes, for low-cost models range it isn´t really low cost anymore.
But what you get for 1400 incl VAT, it is worth it- NOW, although the bugs because they´re minor.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: MT on March 17, 2020, 01:28:09 am
So it seems that measured BW is a good data point to add to the comparison of (improved) SDS2kX+ vs MSO5000...  Some people claimed the 350MHz (improved) Rigol was around 480MHz BW, but that was measured with a pulse.  AFAIK no one did an actual frequency sweep and posted it to the forum.  But then again, there is a ridiculous number of posts on that model and I probably missed something...
Those that have swept SDS2354X Plus have done so with the 500 MHz option enabled so no contest against any 350 MHz rated DSO.......apples vs oranges.  ;)

Why have SIG decided to limit the 2104x Plus BW upgrade path to only 200Mhz when the  the other 3 can be higher yet all using the same platform? This is stupid marketing , does not increase sales, just cause agony, anger, irritation and violent outrage waving hot soldering irons and throwing solder rolls in the electronicists dungeon! ;)

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2354X-plus.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2354X-plus.html)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Electro Fan on March 17, 2020, 05:58:51 am
Maybe a little off topic or off the flow of this thread....

Apparently the 5000 can adjust skew alignment to within 10 ps; anyone know what the spec is on the SDS2104X Plus?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on March 17, 2020, 09:26:31 am
The MSO still have some nice feature : better math function I think, HDMI output, more trigger, more wfms/s ( but Martin72 have to measure that for science >:D ).

"Better" math....more math - But this could be "corrected" via fw upgrade if siglent want it.
HDMI Output, indeed nice - If you need it.
But you could also use the webserver for presentation so no worry at all.
More trigger….have to look at it.
But it got indeed more wfms/s, up to over 500000 wfms/s in normal mode, I´ve meausered it months ago on work.
Want to take the siglent at work also, but we´re very busy since beginning of the year so I didn´t it so far.
Took a rigol ds1054z at home to measure the wfms/s of the 2k+, but the results were irritating (much less than 120000 and very instable) and I want to measure it again with another scope.

The rigol 5000 is a raw diamond, no question.
But i've been waiting over a year for them to sharpen it into a real diamond.

We can say exactly the same for Rigol.
Just wait 3 or 4 years and that's it! ;D
Without laughing, they will apparently release a firmware in a short time to add bode plot and probably various improvements.
Covid 19 will certainly cause delay.....again....so we will see but in the meantime, the scope isn't unusable as some claim.

Webserver vs HDMI...It's not just a question of presentation.
It's a question of use. And on the webserver, the framerate is only 10 frames per second I think.
I didn't look in detail all the triggers in the Siglent.
For me and my use/habits, the shared vertical control are prohibitive.

But to be frank, if I had to choose between those two today, I would probably take the Siglent.
I was just answering to the one who didn't understand why the Rigol was so popular.
The MSO5000 still have some nice feature the Siglent will never have and cost less money.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on March 17, 2020, 01:11:58 pm
So it seems that measured BW is a good data point to add to the comparison of (improved) SDS2kX+ vs MSO5000...  Some people claimed the 350MHz (improved) Rigol was around 480MHz BW, but that was measured with a pulse.  AFAIK no one did an actual frequency sweep and posted it to the forum.  But then again, there is a ridiculous number of posts on that model and I probably missed something...
Those that have swept SDS2354X Plus have done so with the 500 MHz option enabled so no contest against any 350 MHz rated DSO.......apples vs oranges.  ;)

Why have SIG decided to limit the 2104x Plus BW upgrade path to only 200Mhz when the  the other 3 can be higher yet all using the same platform? This is stupid marketing , does not increase sales, just cause agony, anger, irritation and violent outrage waving hot soldering irons and throwing solder rolls in the electronicists dungeon! ;)

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2354X-plus.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2354X-plus.html)
Because they want you to buy the 350MHz model (or 500MHz) from the start.  When upgrades are priced very high, it is because they want to discourage people buying it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TheDefpom on March 17, 2020, 01:13:04 pm
I just got my hands on a SDS2104X Plus today curtesy of Rob (Tautech), here is the first review of a couple of videos I will do about it.

I will be doing a follow up more detailed review within the next couple of weeks, this is just a first look and checking out the GUI etc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHH4H8Q7IWg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHH4H8Q7IWg)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Tom45 on March 17, 2020, 06:23:57 pm
I just got my hands on a SDS2104X Plus today curtesy of Rob (Tautech), here is the first review of a couple of videos I will do about it.

When you lost the trigger level line on the display, it was because you were in AC coupling mode for the trigger. The trigger level line is only relevant in DC trigger coupling mode.

Tom
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TheDefpom on March 17, 2020, 07:28:39 pm
Argh of course, your exactly right, wish I had noticed that when I was recording.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 17, 2020, 09:23:09 pm
"I think it could be upgradeable to 200Mhz"....Yepp and slightly more above.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: MT on March 17, 2020, 10:39:30 pm
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2354X-plus.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2354X-plus.html)
Because they want you to buy the 350MHz model (or 500MHz) from the start.  When upgrades are priced very high, it is because they want to discourage people buying it.
Thank you for exemplify in clear text SIG marketing stupidity! :)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: MT on March 17, 2020, 10:53:32 pm
Id like a 500Mhz 2104x plus as square box with HDMI, mouse and meas inputs, no screen no touch no rubber buttons no nutting
etc all for fabulous 499euro thank you SIGLENT you can do it.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 19, 2020, 09:22:05 am
To transport my siglent safety to work ( train, bus) and to keep it away from dust, I´ve just bought this here:

https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00H25JMPK/ref=pe_3044161_185740101_TE_item (https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00H25JMPK/ref=pe_3044161_185740101_TE_item)

Hope, I´ve choosed the right size - I hate sending things back... ;)
FYI Siglent can now provide a proper hard case:
(https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/IMG_20200312_145539589-100x100.jpg) (https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/IMG_20200312_145146984-100x100.jpg)
https://siglentna.com/product/hard-shell-carry-case/ (https://siglentna.com/product/hard-shell-carry-case/)
However it's only on the US site.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 19, 2020, 06:20:46 pm
Nice one, looks nearly similar to mine - Today, the greater one has arrived, will test it later if it´s fitting better…



Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 19, 2020, 08:59:58 pm
It´s fitting better... 8)

Although there´s not enough space for putting the cable/probe into it too.
But it seems, the "original" case from siglent didn´t have the space too.

Apart from this:

This is what I would call an Update (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2969316/#msg2969316)....
Fixing some things and new features - Makes me curious about the first fw update for my siglent.  :)

By the way, the fact that if you deactivate the bode plot, the awg will remains to be on, is this bug known ?



Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 21, 2020, 10:11:42 am
Quote
It´s fitting better...

Jepp, see below.
Now I need siglent labels... 8)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TheDefpom on March 22, 2020, 08:51:50 am
Today I recorded some more footage for the 2nd part of my review on the SDS2104X Plus, I even did a bit of a teardown on it to see what it looks like inside, I took a bunch of photos which I have uploaded to my website in a ZIP file, I thought you might be interested in seeing them, obviously you probably want to see my actual teardown too and I will probably publish that later this week.

Here are the photos: http://www.thedefpom.com/randomfiles/Siglent_SDS2104XPlus_High_Res_Photos.zip (http://www.thedefpom.com/randomfiles/Siglent_SDS2104XPlus_High_Res_Photos.zip)

I have attached a pic of the front end to wet your appetite.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 22, 2020, 10:42:04 am
Nice pics  :-+
Full packed pcb…….
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 22, 2020, 11:18:00 am
Here a comparison between sds5000, sds2000x+, 2000X main pcbs ( If it´s ok to you to use these pics @ tv84,TheDefpom,EEvblog, otherwise I´ll delete them prompt]
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on March 27, 2020, 09:39:10 pm
Defpom takes a deeper look at some features and does a teardown:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_cVpH7GLtI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_cVpH7GLtI)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 27, 2020, 09:54:39 pm
He "forgot" the acquisition mode "Slow" and "Fast", the difference between them could be nicely shown with the pwm signal of the stb-3 demoboard.

At minute 26:

Dude, you could easily remove the seal in another way... ;)
By using a hot air dryer and carefully lifting one side, the adhesive strength is maintained.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Electro Fan on March 28, 2020, 04:26:34 am
Defpom takes a deeper look at some features and does a teardown:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_cVpH7GLtI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_cVpH7GLtI)

It’s a good review of a scope with a lot to like but no ASCII decoding, really?  Surely ASCII decoding is in there somewhere - yes/no?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TheDefpom on March 28, 2020, 04:51:06 am
It does have ascii decoding, just not on the parallel logic analyser, that is part of the normal serial decoding.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Electro Fan on March 28, 2020, 05:06:29 am
It does have ascii decoding, just not on the parallel logic analyser, that is part of the normal serial decoding.

OK, roger that and thanks for clarifying.  Still not sure why Siglent didn’t include it on the digital channels (maybe they can and will in a future release) but if it’s on the four analog channels that takes it from a show stopper to probably ok.

EDIT:  Or maybe ASCII is available for some digital channel decoding, just not parallel decoding?

Overall it does look good, and thanks for the good review(s).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: KeBeNe on March 28, 2020, 08:16:39 am
Hello,

i once measured the adjustment of the channels in relation to 50ohm, looks really good.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on March 28, 2020, 12:23:46 pm
It does have ascii decoding, just not on the parallel logic analyser, that is part of the normal serial decoding.
Just to clarify: you can decode UART/SPI/ etc on digital channels too?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 28, 2020, 01:01:13 pm
Yepp...

(hmm….double pic, why…)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Electro Fan on March 28, 2020, 01:40:09 pm
Yepp...

(hmm….double pic, why…)

And to further clarify, with UART, SPI, and I2C on digital channels the Siglent can or cannot decode the signals into ASCII?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 28, 2020, 01:58:46 pm
Hi,

I don´t have the logic probes, but I can "simulate" it by doing the settings in the menu, as if I was doing decoding on digital channels, see post before.
And when I´m going to the "Bus Display" menu, ascii is still avaible, maybe he hasn´t found it... :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Electro Fan on March 28, 2020, 02:42:32 pm
Hi,

I don´t have the logic probes, but I can "simulate" it by doing the settings in the menu, as if I was doing decoding on digital channels, see post before.
And when I´m going to the "Bus Display" menu, ascii is still avaible, maybe he hasn´t found it... :-//

Looks good.  Thanks Martin.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: ssaenek on March 28, 2020, 06:56:05 pm
What about options? Do you think It would be possible too?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 28, 2020, 08:39:24 pm
Hi,

What exactly do you mean ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on March 28, 2020, 08:54:45 pm
Hacking >:D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on March 28, 2020, 08:59:32 pm
Ahhh…. ;)
Well, he should study this thread and answer will be given.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: W7NGA on April 04, 2020, 01:11:08 am
Hello all .. brand spanking new SDS2104X on the bench, delivered today after a two month wait.

Anyone tell me if and where the Averaging mode resides?

Cannot find it, nor any reference to it in the manual.

Thank you ... Daniel
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: stafil on April 04, 2020, 01:46:53 am
delivered today after a two month wait

Wow is it that bad? Where did you order it from? Saelig?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: W7NGA on April 04, 2020, 01:57:03 am
Saelig. One day short of two months wait.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on April 04, 2020, 02:33:14 am
Hello all .. brand spanking new SDS2104X on the bench, delivered today after a two month wait.

Anyone tell me if and where the Averaging mode resides?

Cannot find it, nor any reference to it in the manual.

Thank you ... Daniel
Found it.
It's a Math function.
P194.
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2019/12/SDS2000X-Plus_UserManual_UM0102XP-E01A.pdf

RTFM  :-DD
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Tom45 on April 04, 2020, 02:47:56 am
Saelig. One day short of two months wait.

Hmm. I've been waiting about a month for a Siglent SDS2104X Plus from Saelig. So I guess I'm halfway there. It's past the late March estimate they gave me when I placed my order.

Tom
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: drwho9437 on April 04, 2020, 04:30:29 am
Siglent NA is shut down due to the virus and there are no shipments going on I heard.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: stafil on April 04, 2020, 04:50:26 am
Siglent NA is shut down due to the virus and there are no shipments going on I heard.

You mean to say enabling our GAS is not essential business??  :-DD
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: W7NGA on April 04, 2020, 05:21:25 am
RTFM  :-DD

Yeah, silly me for searching for the word ‘average’ in my downloadable .pdf file. Nothing returned, hence my befuddlement. I’m guessing now that searching for any word would have resulted in nothing found. I’m pleased to find that averaging is supported as I use it a lot in my guitar amplifier design.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on April 04, 2020, 06:19:49 am
We are better supplied in Europe. We have had stock for weeks at least at Batronix.
With the covid, there may not be many people buying test equipment.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 2N3055 on April 04, 2020, 09:08:27 am
RTFM  :-DD

Yeah, silly me for searching for the word ‘average’ in my downloadable .pdf file. Nothing returned, hence my befuddlement. I’m guessing now that searching for any word would have resulted in nothing found. I’m pleased to find that averaging is supported as I use it a lot in my guitar amplifier design.
For audio, you also have 10 bit mode in Acquire menu, in addition to ERES mode in MATH.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: W7NGA on April 04, 2020, 11:51:34 am
For audio, you also have 10 bit mode in Acquire menu, in addition to ERES mode in MATH.
Yes, a very nice feature. I am really enjoying using this scope so far. I am a scope junkie. Usually use my Agilent 7014B or one of the twenty Tektronix scopes I own.
Was looking for a nice gain/phase-profile presentation to give my amplifier customers and stumbled on the just-released SDS2000X Plus series with Bode plotting.
I'm adjusting to not having switchable 50ohm inputs. That was the reason I changed my order to the 4-channel version, to have 2 dedicated probe channels and hang 50ohm terminations on the other two channels.
Perfect.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 2N3055 on April 04, 2020, 01:05:51 pm
For audio, you also have 10 bit mode in Acquire menu, in addition to ERES mode in MATH.
Yes, a very nice feature. I am really enjoying using this scope so far. I am a scope junkie. Usually use my Agilent 7014B or one of the twenty Tektronix scopes I own.
Was looking for a nice gain/phase-profile presentation to give my amplifier customers and stumbled on the just-released SDS2000X Plus series with Bode plotting.
I'm adjusting to not having switchable 50ohm inputs. That was the reason I changed my order to the 4-channel version, to have 2 dedicated probe channels and hang 50ohm terminations on the other two channels.
Perfect.
What do you mean " not having switchable 50ohm inputs." ?
It has switchable 1M/50OHm inputs..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: W7NGA on April 04, 2020, 01:59:48 pm
It sure does. I just assumed it was much the same as my cheap Rigol DS1054Z.
Just have to remember to do the switch when probing and set to 10X.
Today will be the first time I get to spend time with it ... figure out where all the bones are buried.

Thanks for the heads-up ...

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 04, 2020, 08:00:30 pm
Probes….
Want to exchange the super-cheap ones which comes with the sds2104X+.
Do anyone have a advice for priceworthy and usable passive probes, bandwith 350Mhz/500Mhz ?
The Siglent SP2035A 350Mhz probe cost 159€ excl. VAT - One piece... :P
The 500Mhz Version cost 199€ excl. VAT.
Including VAT, 4pcs costs 947€, the 350Mhz Version 756€...way too much for a 1400€ scope.
So I´m looking for alternatives which will cost not more than 100€/each.


Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on April 04, 2020, 08:15:12 pm
Probes….
Want to exchange the super-cheap ones which comes with the sds2104X+.
Do anyone have a advice for priceworthy and usable passive probes, bandwith 350Mhz/500Mhz ?
The Siglent SP2035A 350Mhz probe cost 159€ excl. VAT - One piece... :P
The 500Mhz Version cost 199€ excl. VAT.
Including VAT, 4pcs costs 947€, the 350Mhz Version 756€...way too much for a 1400€ scope.
So I´m looking for alternatives which will cost not more than 100€/each.
The *****A probes are autosense capable models I believe and not supported in SDS2kX Plus models.
Other possibilities are listed here:
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/document/Probe-Datasheet-V2.0E201912.pdf
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 04, 2020, 08:26:13 pm
Hi Rob,

I know this sheet - Except the mentioned probes before, the maximum bandwith of the others are 300Mhz.
I would like to have at least 350Mhz probes for my (now)350(500)Mhz scope.
But when there are no alternatives, I´ll go for the 300Mhz versions from siglent.
(Already looked around, there are some "cheap" so claimed 500Mhz probes on the market, but they´re looking suspicious to me)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on April 04, 2020, 08:29:58 pm
Hi Rob,

I know this sheet - Except the mentioned probes before, the maximum bandwith of the others are 300Mhz.
I would like to have at least 350Mhz probes for my (now)350(500)Mhz scope.
But when there are no alternatives, I´ll go for the 300Mhz versions from siglent.
(Already looked around, there are some "cheap" so claimed 500Mhz probes on the market, but they´re looking suspicious to me)
You want 10x fixed or switchables ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 2N3055 on April 04, 2020, 08:30:22 pm
Probes….
Want to exchange the super-cheap ones which comes with the sds2104X+.
Do anyone have a advice for priceworthy and usable passive probes, bandwith 350Mhz/500Mhz ?
The Siglent SP2035A 350Mhz probe cost 159€ excl. VAT - One piece... :P
The 500Mhz Version cost 199€ excl. VAT.
Including VAT, 4pcs costs 947€, the 350Mhz Version 756€...way too much for a 1400€ scope.
So I´m looking for alternatives which will cost not more than 100€/each.
The *****A probes are autosense capable models I believe and not supported in SDS2kX Plus models.
Other possibilities are listed here:
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/document/Probe-Datasheet-V2.0E201912.pdf
I have Testec TT-HF-212, 300 MHz, very decent quality. I use it with my MSOx3104T, instead of expensive 500MHz probes that come with the scope. Not much difference. I don't trust passive probes over 200-300 MHz anyways..
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 04, 2020, 08:38:00 pm
You want 10x fixed or switchables ?

Fixed.

Quote
The *****A probes are autosense capable models I believe and not supported in SDS2kX Plus models.

Not supported ?
The SDS2K+ got autosense inputs, so I expect it should works with every autosensing probe.
Will test it next week, by taking a autosense-probe from work.

@Sinisa:

Yes, testec I know, we got some of them at work, also MC-Connect aka Staeubli.





Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on April 04, 2020, 08:45:27 pm
You want 10x fixed or switchables ?

Fixed.

Quote
The *****A probes are autosense capable models I believe and not supported in SDS2kX Plus models.

Not supported ?
Sorry brain fart.  :palm:

OK I'll have a look at what's available from another supplier and come back with some model #'s....but later as busy ATM.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 04, 2020, 09:22:17 pm
At siglent.eu I´ve found this one:

https://www.siglent.eu/product/1255135/p6500-500mhz-passive-probe (https://www.siglent.eu/product/1255135/p6500-500mhz-passive-probe)

But it seems, this is really crappy, having only 100Mhz bw ( didn´t find the vote yet, someone placed in eBay)



Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: drwho9437 on April 04, 2020, 09:36:05 pm
Probes….
Want to exchange the super-cheap ones which comes with the sds2104X+.
Do anyone have a advice for priceworthy and usable passive probes, bandwith 350Mhz/500Mhz ?
The Siglent SP2035A 350Mhz probe cost 159€ excl. VAT - One piece... :P
The 500Mhz Version cost 199€ excl. VAT.
Including VAT, 4pcs costs 947€, the 350Mhz Version 756€...way too much for a 1400€ scope.
So I´m looking for alternatives which will cost not more than 100€/each.

Just pick up some used ones off eBay or similar. You normally can get 500 MHz top brand probes for 50 dollars. Which is 1/6 to 1/3 of the new price of the same models. Make sure you see a photo of the tip or ask though.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: twizla on April 04, 2020, 09:44:03 pm
Martin72, i also looked for fixed 10x probes. I tried P6500 which are said to have very good price/performance. Basically a copy of Tektronix. I compared them with Tektronix P6139B. P6139B is perfect for me, the frequency response is flat to 500MHz.

P6500 have a peak arround 250MHz, they are definitely worth the money (below 50€ i think). But to me they degrade the performance of this great scope. Some say these can be fine-tuned to improve the performance. I had them for testing, tuning would need to remove the self-adhesive label, so i did sent them back.

On eBay one can get P6139B for 100 to 150€ /pcs, especially if you buy a set of 4. There is also the previous model P6139A, some prefere the mechanical construction of this older one.

The compensation range of both P6500 and P6139B match this scope input capacitance.

Autosensing of SDS2000X+ is compatible with Tekprobe1 interface of above probes, so you get automatic 10x switching.

My SDS2000X+ has a autosensing bug: it does not update probe status after power off/on, if probe disconnected during power off
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on April 04, 2020, 10:03:07 pm
Just pick up some used ones off eBay or similar. You normally can get 500 MHz top brand probes for 50 dollars.
I strongly recommend against buying used generic probes. Nobody sells their good probes. Special probes like low-Z, active and current probes are a different story (which can be a hit & miss too). Remember generic probes are consumables. There are many reputable brands which sell good probes for decent prices so there is no need to make do with someone else's junk.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 04, 2020, 10:10:54 pm
Quote
I tried P6500 which are said to have very good price/performance.

As I mentioned before, someone has done a vote with tests in eBay with poor results - It got 100Mhz at -3dB, with some additional adjustments he could took it a little bit above 100Mhz.
Will search for this.

Quote
Nobody sells their good probes.

Exception: Vendors of used equipments in general.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: NoisyBoy on April 04, 2020, 11:50:07 pm
Hey Martin72, for 500Mhz, my go-to probe is the Keysight N2873A, very good for probing around.

https://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1661717-pn-N2873A/passive-probe-101-500-mhz-13-m?nid=-32557.898995&cc=US&lc=eng (https://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1661717-pn-N2873A/passive-probe-101-500-mhz-13-m?nid=-32557.898995&cc=US&lc=eng)

Price is on the higher side if you buy it as an accessory separately, but it is something you could keep with you as you upgrade scopes.  I do not trust no-name probes, you just don’t know what you get and what the real spec is, last thing I need is unexpected measurement error due to cheap probes in the middle of a project.

I also agree with nctnico to avoid used probes, you just don’t know what you get from the pictures, most sellers also do not guarantee performance.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on April 05, 2020, 12:04:23 am
The high end P**** probes I would have no issues with as Pioneer have been in the probe business for decades.

Others that are certainly worth considering are from Pintek Taiwan as they too have been building probes for years.
10x readout probes:
CP-3351R (350MHz)
CP-3501R/pro (500MHz)
CP-3601R (600MHz, Precision)

Some others from their selection:
http://www.pintek.com.tw/files/pintek/test_probe-front-951025.jpg (http://www.pintek.com.tw/files/pintek/test_probe-front-951025.jpg)

As always high BW passive probes and tuning their HF step response is problematic without an appropriate signal source.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 05, 2020, 12:06:29 am
@NoisyBoy:
Thanks for your advice!

Quote
I also agree with nctnico to avoid used probes, you just don’t know what you get from the pictures, most sellers also do not guarantee performance.

Normally I would agree to him too, but...

What performance could be lost on a passive probe...
Apart from this, I wouldn´t buy used ones in eBay.
With simply reason, I want to buy fourth at the same time, not one for one in a month, year...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: maginnovision on April 05, 2020, 12:24:26 am
Stäubli also makes some decent probes(maybe they're rebranded, I can't say). I usually buy their 500MHz probes and they seem pretty decent and last a long while. The cables themselves are not very compliant but far from bad. With the 300MHz probes that came with my RTB2004 I got a rise time of 1.06ns, compared to the Stäubli which were 815ps.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on April 05, 2020, 12:32:48 am
@NoisyBoy:

Quote
I also agree with nctnico to avoid used probes, you just don’t know what you get from the pictures, most sellers also do not guarantee performance.
Normally I would agree to him too, but...
What performance could be lost on a passive probe...
Not performance perse but broken wires, broken housings, bad tips, contact problems, etc. Everything you don't want in a probe.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: NoisyBoy on April 05, 2020, 01:24:08 am
Probes aside, congrats for owning a 500 MHz capable scope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: stafil on April 05, 2020, 02:18:57 am
Probes aside, congrats for owning a 500 MHz capable scope.

Hack already in the making?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on April 05, 2020, 03:23:29 am
Probes aside, congrats for owning a 500 MHz capable scope.

Hack already in the making?
4 days after Martin got his and 10 days after worldwide release.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2887364/#msg2887364 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2887364/#msg2887364)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: drwho9437 on April 05, 2020, 04:33:37 am
Just pick up some used ones off eBay or similar. You normally can get 500 MHz top brand probes for 50 dollars.
I strongly recommend against buying used generic probes. Nobody sells their good probes. Special probes like low-Z, active and current probes are a different story (which can be a hit & miss too). Remember generic probes are consumables. There are many reputable brands which sell good probes for decent prices so there is no need to make do with someone else's junk.

Not true. There is always tons of surplus, companies go out of business constantly... You can throw your money away if you want though. I have gear worth 100K plus that I can tell you I didn't pay anything like full price for. Probes aren't special. Yes they can be DOA but when you can buy 6 for the price of 1 its not hard to win. They are pretty trivial to test for function.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: KeBeNe on April 05, 2020, 05:24:54 am
Hello,

i bought 4x Keysight N2843A (new, with luck 40$ per probe) on ebay, there is not much money from time to time.
These are fixed 500Mhz, 10x probes with 700ps rise time and are recognized by the SDS2000X+.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: stafil on April 05, 2020, 05:51:45 am
Probes aside, congrats for owning a 500 MHz capable scope.

Hack already in the making?
4 days after Martin got his and 10 days after worldwide release.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2887364/#msg2887364 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2887364/#msg2887364)

But it's not public yet, right?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 05, 2020, 08:04:07 am
Right.
@KeBeNe:
Hm...…. :D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on April 05, 2020, 09:49:53 am
Just pick up some used ones off eBay or similar. You normally can get 500 MHz top brand probes for 50 dollars.
I strongly recommend against buying used generic probes. Nobody sells their good probes. Special probes like low-Z, active and current probes are a different story (which can be a hit & miss too). Remember generic probes are consumables. There are many reputable brands which sell good probes for decent prices so there is no need to make do with someone else's junk.
Not true. There is always tons of surplus, companies go out of business constantly...
But those probes are new. You can probably get a nice deal on new probes from a liquidation or inventory sale. However, I was writing about used probes. Unless a probe comes in a sealed package I consider it broken. And probes are not so trivial to test. A broken wire or poor contact can act up in many strange ways. I've been down that road too many times. Where did my signal go?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 2N3055 on April 05, 2020, 10:18:47 am
Just pick up some used ones off eBay or similar. You normally can get 500 MHz top brand probes for 50 dollars.
I strongly recommend against buying used generic probes. Nobody sells their good probes. Special probes like low-Z, active and current probes are a different story (which can be a hit & miss too). Remember generic probes are consumables. There are many reputable brands which sell good probes for decent prices so there is no need to make do with someone else's junk.
Not true. There is always tons of surplus, companies go out of business constantly...
But those probes are new. You can probably get a nice deal on new probes from a liquidation or inventory sale. However, I was writing about used probes. Unless a probe comes in a sealed package I consider it broken. And probes are not so trivial to test. A broken wire or poor contact can act up in many strange ways. I've been down that road too many times. Where did my signal go?
I agree with Nico on this one.. Top brand means nothing if you don't know the state of it. If you have capability to test and characterise them you can use any probe, even the cheapest ones if tested good..
Those cheap probes that come with Rigol DS1054Z had problematic 1x/10x switch that would go bad, but until they broke, signal wise they were very good and better than spec....
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Back2Volts on April 05, 2020, 01:38:59 pm
Saelig. One day short of two months wait.

I wonder if they received a batch and have any left in stock.   I have been thinking about ordering one one, but I do not want to have an order hanging.   I asked for the forum discount code days back, but no one sent me a PM.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Tom45 on April 05, 2020, 03:17:30 pm
I wonder if they received a batch and have any left in stock.   I have been thinking about ordering one one, but I do not want to have an order hanging.   I asked for the forum discount code days back, but no one sent me a PM.

On March 11 I ordered one from Saelig and so far no scope, and no word from Saelig on when it might arrive. When I placed the order they said late March for delivery.

So it is unlikely they have any stock on hand.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Back2Volts on April 05, 2020, 07:07:34 pm
No new toy to play   :'(  :(
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on April 05, 2020, 07:17:08 pm
Saelig. One day short of two months wait.

I wonder if they received a batch and have any left in stock.   I have been thinking about ordering one one, but I do not want to have an order hanging.   I asked for the forum discount code days back, but no one sent me a PM.
Incoming !
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 05, 2020, 10:21:58 pm
Looking to get one of these to replace my 1202x+.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 07, 2020, 07:32:17 pm
2104X+ on order from Welectron. They have stock and were able to deliver at a price lower than I could find in the U.S. No stock here for a while it seems . Should have this in few days. If I can just get TV to share the "update"...

BTW my 1202X+ is for sale if anyone is interested.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on April 07, 2020, 08:27:17 pm
2104X+ on order from Welectron. They have stock and were able to deliver at a price lower than I could find in the U.S. No stock here for a while it seems . Should have this in few days. If I can just get TV to share the "update"...

BTW my 1202X+ is for sale if anyone is interested.
Cheaper than saelig with the eevblog discount?  Can you share how you got it? 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 07, 2020, 08:34:08 pm
Hi,

This is what I´ve found out by welectron:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2942394/#msg2942394 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2942394/#msg2942394)

Total 7% off, maybe he got a special offer apart from this.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: NoisyBoy on April 07, 2020, 09:17:38 pm
Don't forget the custom, it is a pretty good odd that custom will send you a duty bill for importing the scope. 

Warranty coverage is another item to consider, I am not sure how SIGLENT NA handles warranty, but many brands do not warrant “grey market” purchases - as in any purchase outside its regional dealer network.  Cameras is a great example, none of the big brands provide warranty for grey market goods that are often sold at a discount.

Just something to consider before buying overseas.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 08, 2020, 01:16:23 am
I sent them an email asking for best price delivered to my address in the U.S. They beat the Saelig price including EEVBlog discount by a good dinner. Should have it at the end of the week. Very responsive.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 08, 2020, 01:22:18 am
Should of said dinner for two. If I pay duty it’s dinner for one. After contacting Siglent US it was apparent that Delivery times were uncertain. Not worried about service as I’m hoping TV will help me improve it....
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: stafil on April 08, 2020, 04:42:47 am
I sent them an email asking for best price delivered to my address in the U.S. They beat the Saelig price including EEVBlog discount by a good dinner. Should have it at the end of the week. Very responsive.

What price did you get? Because my order with Saelig for the SDS2104X Plus is total of $1,436.70 (including 9% CA tax) which is about 1,321.83 Euro (although I am sure your CC will give you a worse exchange rate).

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on April 08, 2020, 08:08:30 am
Oh well, looks like my GAS got the better of me. Sitting on the fence between the MSO5074 and this one was getting uncomfortable. I ordered one from Welectron today.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on April 08, 2020, 08:50:07 am
I sent them an email asking for best price delivered to my address in the U.S. They beat the Saelig price including EEVBlog discount by a good dinner. Should have it at the end of the week. Very responsive.

What price did you get? Because my order with Saelig for the SDS2104X Plus is total of $1,436.70 (including 9% CA tax) which is about 1,321.83 Euro (although I am sure your CC will give you a worse exchange rate).

You bought a Rigol, a Keysight and now a Siglent in the past few days ?
I found worse than me  :-DD
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: miyagi on April 08, 2020, 10:04:40 am
Finally got my SDS2104X Plus and make it a SDS2504X Plus.  ;)
(http://)
Enable telnet: create a file named as 'siglent_device_startup.sh', content 'telnetd'.
telnet user name 'root'
password 'siglent_sds1000x_e'  (why not SDS2000X Plus?)
mount -o remount,rw,sync /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
rm /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0/bandwidth.txt
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: twizla on April 08, 2020, 12:21:29 pm
Hello miyagi, many thanks for sharing your result and congratulations to enjoying good tool. Your scope show now SDS2504X Plus, while other methods result in SDS2354X Plus. Please do you have a possibility to measure your scope fastest rise time, and/or the frequency response?

Some owner share 650ps to be reached with SDS2354X Plus and Leo's pulse generator, or 600 to 650MHz -3dB bandwidth. Of course, with only one channel active of the pairs 1+2 and 3+4.

Would be interesting to know, whether there is still headroom in above values.

Once again, many thanks
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: twizla on April 08, 2020, 12:24:48 pm
Forgot to mention, with 600MHz bandwidth we are already close to the limit of 2GHz sample rate
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 08, 2020, 01:07:08 pm
Miyagi you are awesome! I will try this when I get mine later this week. I paid 1148 Euro delivered to my door in the US.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on April 08, 2020, 01:24:57 pm
Finally got my SDS2104X Plus and make it a SDS2504X Plus.  ;)
(http://)
Enable telnet: create a file named as 'siglent_device_startup.sh', content 'telnetd'.
telnet user name 'root'
password 'siglent_sds1000x_e'  (why not SDS2000X Plus?)
mount -o remount,rw,sync /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
rm /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0/bandwidth.txt
Sorry if it is a dumb question... where do you put the siglent_device_startup.sh file?
And I suggest changing the rm command for mv: mv /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0/bandwidth.txt /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0/bandwidth.txt.bak to keep a copy just in case
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on April 08, 2020, 01:31:50 pm
Miyagi you are awesome! I will try this when I get mine later this week. I paid 1148 Euro delivered to my door in the US.
Let us know if you receive a custom duties bill from the courier before delivery.  Item is Made in China and it should be subject to tariff, regardless of where it is coming from and the daily allowance is only $800...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on April 08, 2020, 01:40:01 pm
Miyagi you are awesome! I will try this when I get mine later this week. I paid 1148 Euro delivered to my door in the US.

Well, yes, that's without VAT of course, and before import tax and duties.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tv84 on April 08, 2020, 01:55:13 pm
Some owner share 650ps to be reached with SDS2354X Plus and Leo's pulse generator, or 600 to 650MHz -3dB bandwidth. Of course, with only one channel active of the pairs 1+2 and 3+4.

Would be interesting to know, whether there is still headroom in above values.

There is not.  The HW is the same, whether you call it 2354X++ or 2504X+.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: stafil on April 08, 2020, 02:05:06 pm
Miyagi you are awesome! I will try this when I get mine later this week. I paid 1148 Euro delivered to my door in the US.

Wow. That’s an amazing deal. I don’t see them having it in stock for long at this price 😆
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 08, 2020, 02:06:54 pm
I will let everyone know the final cost with duties. I used Paypal to pay.  In the past Ive gotten a bill some weeks after taking delivery of items I have purchased like this.

Looking for step/step upgrade plan. Ive upgraded my SDG AWG using a password free telnet but Miyagi's instructions are a little cryptic. Hoping someone writes a little guide. This community is awesome. Im in awe of the work many (like TV84) have done to "enhance" these products. Its like the folks who crack the ECU's on cars and provide performance boosts. The automotive manufactures are very concerned about Information Assurance (Cyber Security) and make it very, very hard but there are those that do it. Amazing. Thank you.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on April 08, 2020, 03:00:07 pm
Miyagi you are awesome! I will try this when I get mine later this week. I paid 1148 Euro delivered to my door in the US.

Wow. That’s an amazing deal. I don’t see them having it in stock for long at this price 😆

This is the normal price in EU without VAT.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 08, 2020, 05:34:26 pm
TK hopefully you can sort out the specifics on he upgrade. You asked one of my first questions: where does the file go? On a USB drive in the external port? Hopefully someone will develop a step/step guide soon.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on April 08, 2020, 07:00:15 pm
I feel like you know who is going to have a lot of work in the coming days  :palm:

Can we not all subscribe to offer him a test equipment or whatever he want/need ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: miyagi on April 09, 2020, 02:45:10 am
@twizla, tv84 is right, the hardware is the same. I measured rise time with Picosecond 4015D, it is exactly 650ps.  I also attached the frequency response plot, -3 dB point is roughly around 590MHz. If I have better attenuator and settings here, the result should be better, maybe can go up to 600-650 MHz. 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: miyagi on April 09, 2020, 03:07:05 am
@ TK, yes keep a copy is better. So for whom would want to try this. Here is a simple guide to upgrade SDS2104X Plus to 500 MHz. 
1) Create a .txt file and input 'telnetd' 
2) Save this file as 'siglent_device_startup.sh' .  *** It must be this file name. And file format is .sh***
3) Copy file 'siglent_device_startup.sh' to the root directory of a USB drive.
4) Insert the USB drive to scope, and now turn on the power of scope. *** Must have the USB drive inserted before turn on the scope. And everytime you want to telnet to scope, you need to have the USB inserted before turn on it.***
5) After turn on scope with USB inserted, set scope LAN configuration as DHCP
6) Open a command window on PC, write 'telnet +IP address of your scope'
7) Now it requires user name and password.
   User name:   'root'
   Password: 'siglent_sds1000x_e'
8) After log in, write commands:
mount -o remount,rw,sync /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
rm /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0/bandwidth.txt  *** or as TK suggested, you can use another command to have a copy of this file just in case**
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: twizla on April 09, 2020, 06:44:14 am
@twizla, tv84 is right, the hardware is the same. I measured rise time with Picosecond 4015D, it is exactly 650ps.  I also attached the frequency response plot, -3 dB point is roughly around 590MHz. If I have better attenuator and settings here, the result should be better, maybe can go up to 600-650 MHz.

Many thanks miyagi. I have measured exactly same values of 650ps and 600MHz. This is than the frontend bandwidth, with all low-pass elements disabled.

I dont know how implemented, likely a set of RC lowpass, they limit the BW steps 100/200/350MHz.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: miyagi on April 09, 2020, 09:33:19 am
You are welcome, twizla. I guess it's implemented in chips.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: pga23 on April 09, 2020, 11:18:28 am
Maybe only probes are different?

I've bought SDS2104X Plus and I've four 200MHz probes, so I suppose it can be the only difference between 100MHz and 350/500MHz version.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 09, 2020, 12:46:42 pm
Thank you so much my friend. Your instructions are perfect. As soon as mine shows up I will make this improvement. Do you know the correct .txt file to reference to turn on the other options?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 10, 2020, 10:52:36 pm
I received my scope today. Three days after ordering from Germany. Excellent service. Sadly Miyagi's update method did not work. I get a refused connection when I try to TELNET in with Putty. The scope can see the startup.sh file that has the telnetd but I dont think its reading it on startup. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on April 10, 2020, 11:03:52 pm
Are you using the full name siglent_device_startup.sh or just startup.sh?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 10, 2020, 11:13:00 pm
I used the full name as specified by Miyagi. I can hit the scope via a web browser so i know its on my network and I have the correct IP.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 10, 2020, 11:17:40 pm
I would be glad to hear about your experiences with the scope itself, at the first time.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 10, 2020, 11:24:52 pm
I played with it for a few hours. Its a very impressive instrument. Coming from a non-touch screen (1202X+) its a revelation. I love the touch control and its very responsive. Its going to take me a bit to get used to the menu structure though. I do need the I2S decoding as I do a lot of digital audio work. The FFT is actually better than I thought. I have a dedicated audio interface for analog signal capture (RTX 6001) that runs FFT's on the PC. Overall Im very happy I just want to get it all the goodies working ...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 10, 2020, 11:33:00 pm
"Problem" is, except the bandwith, you already have all the goodies in trial versions on board.  8)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 10, 2020, 11:38:32 pm
Martin, Of course you are correct. The bandwidth is the big "prize".
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on April 10, 2020, 11:41:47 pm
I used the full name as specified by Miyagi. I can hit the scope via a web browser so i know its on my network and I have the correct IP.
It might not be opening standard port 23 for telnet.  @Miyagi, do you know the port number for telnet connection?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 10, 2020, 11:42:20 pm
Anybody able to make Miyagi's technique work?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on April 10, 2020, 11:48:49 pm
Anybody able to make Miyagi's technique work?
Try telnet to port 5024
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 11, 2020, 12:18:09 am
That got me right in no password. Hmm. Should I try the scripts now? 
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 11, 2020, 12:23:08 am
tried his scripts, did not effect any change. Bummer.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 11, 2020, 12:30:49 am
Looks like this port is SCPI interface. Well at least I know I can telnet it to that.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 11, 2020, 12:56:47 am
Where's TV84 when you need him....
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on April 11, 2020, 01:57:59 am
I think TV84 is in Europe and probably sleeping at this moment
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on April 11, 2020, 02:22:05 am
Looks like this port is SCPI interface. Well at least I know I can telnet it to that.
You can try running nmap on your PC/laptop to check which ports are opened on the scope
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: stafil on April 11, 2020, 02:52:34 am
I used the full name as specified by Miyagi. I can hit the scope via a web browser so i know its on my network and I have the correct IP.

What's your version? Maybe they closed the hole?

Are you using windows to create the file? Make sure that Windows doesn't add an extra file extension.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: miyagi on April 11, 2020, 02:56:41 am
The port number for telnet is 23. Be sure the siglent_device_startup.sh file content is telnetd.    The file must be in USB root directory, and USB should be inserted to scope, before turn on the scope.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Back2Volts on April 11, 2020, 03:25:47 am
... I do need the I2S decoding as I do a lot of digital audio work.  ...
Can the four channels be used with the logic analyzer, without the special probe?   
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on April 11, 2020, 03:36:50 am
... I do need the I2S decoding as I do a lot of digital audio work.  ...
Can the four channels be used with the logic analyzer, without the special probe?
Not as such.
You can use the 4 analog channels and the 16 LA channels all together but things are getting crowded and overlain.

Decoding is available for LA and/or the analogue channels however at this time ASCI results missing for LA decoding.
As yet only the release firmware has been available but we expect some improvements in the first post release FW.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on April 11, 2020, 06:55:07 am
Where's TV84 when you need him....

Maybe he has a life apart from hacking scope and he doesn't answer all the insistent demands ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on April 11, 2020, 07:48:51 am
Looks like, if all goes to plan, I'll have an SDS2104X+ delivered by DHL in the next few hours!  ^-^
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 11, 2020, 11:49:25 am
I was of course just kidding about TV 84. He’s brilliant and an incredible contributor to this community.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 11, 2020, 12:28:05 pm
My scope came with 1.3.5R3 firmware which is the latest (and only version) on the web site.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 11, 2020, 12:36:07 pm
Yepp,

Mine too ( bought in january).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 11, 2020, 01:11:46 pm
OK I got it to work! I reformatted the USB drive. A fresh format seem to do the trick. Upgraded just fine. Model now shows 2504X+. Many thanks Miyagi for this. You rock. Now to get busy.

One of the only good things about the stay-at-home is Im having more time to tinker with my next audio projects. Working on a small, high power, high performance GaN amplifier at the moment. Coming soon...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 11, 2020, 01:53:01 pm
Quote
Model now shows 2504X+

That´s interesting... 8)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on April 11, 2020, 02:31:07 pm
Does miyagi's hack open all the options or only the bandwidth?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 11, 2020, 02:56:48 pm
Only BW. He has scripts to reset the other options to 30X when needed... Would be nice to make them permanent but perhaps in a future "upgrade"
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 11, 2020, 03:39:34 pm
Here are Miyagi's scripts (with his permission) to reset the options;

After telent, and login.  Input these commands:
mount -o remount,rw,sync /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
rm /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/options_mso_times.txt
rm /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/options_awg_times.txt
rm /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/options_flx_times.txt
rm /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/options_canfd_times.txt
rm /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/options_i2s_times.txt
rm /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/options_1553b_times.txt
rm /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/options_pa_times.txt

I have not tried this (yet) but I assume they will work fine. At least with this firmware.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 11, 2020, 08:28:59 pm
Don´t forget to post your experiences with your new siglent - Any comment from a real owner would be useful..  :)

Quote from: thinkfat
Looks like, if all goes to plan, I'll have an SDS2104X+ delivered by DHL in the next few hours!

And does it arrive ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on April 12, 2020, 12:22:08 am
Don´t forget to post your experiences with your new siglent - Any comment from a real owner would be useful..  :)

Quote from: thinkfat
Looks like, if all goes to plan, I'll have an SDS2104X+ delivered by DHL in the next few hours!

And does it arrive ?

No, the delivery was rescheduled, to after the holidays :(
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 12, 2020, 12:29:55 am
Fu**…

Same here, waiting for an programmer, ordered over a week ago.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: drwho9437 on April 12, 2020, 02:17:13 am
Someone correct me if I am wrong but it looked like there are two crystals on the main board and no oscillators? I think one was 24 MHz near some USB stuff and the other was 12 MHz near a heat sinked package? If there was a reference clock I might choose to replace it with something better but alas if it is just crystals that gets a bit trickier though not impossible.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: maginnovision on April 12, 2020, 05:35:54 am
Does it work to just remove write access to the options files rather than deleting them to reset?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 12, 2020, 09:44:25 am
Quote
If there was a reference clock I might choose to replace it with something better

Timebase accuracy is 1ppm, so why replacing.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: drwho9437 on April 12, 2020, 04:24:29 pm
Because you can get 50 ppb for 25 dollars. Which is 20x better. Scopes aren't very good at vertical accuracy so really good horizontal accuracy can be exploited for measurements if you get clever. 1 ppm is okay, my regular scope at work is 20 ppb. You have a rise time at 500 MHz of about 700 ps, but you only know the time axis to 1 us/s. That's sort of boarder line if you are trying to find the time between pulses that occur slowly which is something people do when say counting signal photons arrival times in labs. There are plenty of other examples out there where what you care about is time not amplitude and for that just 20-50 dollars extra on the BOM can improve performance by 20-50x what this unit has.

(I do note this is all initial accuracy based just on stability of the unit rather than drift, though my scope at work is 20 ppb the mods would be more complicated for calibration).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 2N3055 on April 12, 2020, 04:43:31 pm
Because you can get 50 ppb for 25 dollars. Which is 20x better. Scopes aren't very good at vertical accuracy so really good horizontal accuracy can be exploited for measurements if you get clever. 1 ppm is okay, my regular scope at work is 20 ppb. You have a rise time at 500 MHz of about 700 ps, but you only know the time axis to 1 us/s. That's sort of boarder line if you are trying to find the time between pulses that occur slowly which is something people do when say counting signal photons arrival times in labs. There are plenty of other examples out there where what you care about is time not amplitude and for that just 20-50 dollars extra on the BOM can improve performance by 20-50x what this unit has.

What you on scope need is low jitter. Absolute timing error of 1 ppm on timebase set to 1us is 1ps. Unless you sample at 1 terasamples/s, that is not a problem..
You measure precision  time intervals with precision time interval counters, not with inexpensive advanced entry level scopes. That Lecroy (I'm going to presume) you talk about buys you cheap apartment....
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 12, 2020, 05:26:29 pm
At work our labs are equipped with the latest Keysight Infinium  DSO’s that can sample RF to beyond 20GHz. They are not necessarily intuitive to use and you could purchase a really nice 911 for what they cost. I’m actually blown away by what 1000 ish dollars buys in a scope. Making some measurements yesterday I was struck by how responsive the scope is and how well it makes basic measurements. Its also a crap ton faster than those Keysights to boot which are more like; turn on, go get coffee and come back.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 12, 2020, 05:33:18 pm
On my 2000x plus, it's 0.2ppm! :-+

Modified ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on April 12, 2020, 06:15:22 pm
A specification is usually given over a time and temperature range. 1ppm as specification for the first year is actually a pretty good spec and AFAIK better than anything else in that price range. For a LeCroy, this is something to expect in the mid range series (i.e. not the WS3000Z) and for R&S even the RTM3K has 2.5ppm and you'd need to get an RTA4K to get 0.5ppm (after calibration).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 12, 2020, 06:44:07 pm
Yepp,

Rigol MSO5000 for example got 10ppm(without further informations), -7000 2.5ppm, -8000 1ppm,  WS3000Z 10ppm, WR4000HD 2.5ppm, above these models down to 1ppm and less.

Quote
No, everything still original.

How did you measure it ?

Edit: correction of the timebase acc. from mso5000 - 25ppm was siglent sds1104x-e
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: drwho9437 on April 12, 2020, 07:32:10 pm
Because you can get 50 ppb for 25 dollars. Which is 20x better. Scopes aren't very good at vertical accuracy so really good horizontal accuracy can be exploited for measurements if you get clever. 1 ppm is okay, my regular scope at work is 20 ppb. You have a rise time at 500 MHz of about 700 ps, but you only know the time axis to 1 us/s. That's sort of boarder line if you are trying to find the time between pulses that occur slowly which is something people do when say counting signal photons arrival times in labs. There are plenty of other examples out there where what you care about is time not amplitude and for that just 20-50 dollars extra on the BOM can improve performance by 20-50x what this unit has.

What you on scope need is low jitter. Absolute timing error of 1 ppm on timebase set to 1us is 1ps. Unless you sample at 1 terasamples/s, that is not a problem..
You measure precision  time intervals with precision time interval counters, not with inexpensive advanced entry level scopes. That Lecroy (I'm going to presume) you talk about buys you cheap apartment....

Sometimes you need the height and the delta of pulses. The scope I'm referencing has a OCXO, it is an RTO2000. Its worth something like 60,000.

(Edit though I note I got them to sell it to me for 22,000 when it was purchased, I try to save my company money, I doubt anyone pays the 60k list).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: drwho9437 on April 12, 2020, 07:36:20 pm
A specification is usually given over a time and temperature range. 1ppm as specification for the first year is actually a pretty good spec and AFAIK better than anything else in that price range. For a LeCroy, this is something to expect in the mid range series (i.e. not the WS3000Z) and for R&S even the RTM3K has 2.5ppm and you'd need to get an RTA4K to get 0.5ppm (after calibration).

Certainly for aging 1 ppm is pretty good. I would like the specs they give to be a lot more detailed though. I like knowing how the measurement was determined. I'd love to see the phase noise spec or at least a jitter one. I didn't see an aperture uncertainty either. Yes it is a lower cost scope and you have to give up some stuff for cost but you also have the option of picking up an used scope for not vastly more with detailed specs, good calibration manuals, etc. The edge this scope might have is speed in the digital domain. Older scopes with similar bandwidth and sample rates can be quite slow to do measurement functions, even if they are just as good or better in their analog design.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 12, 2020, 07:44:34 pm
[attachimg=1]

From the specsheet.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on April 12, 2020, 07:49:49 pm
Because you can get 50 ppb for 25 dollars. Which is 20x better. Scopes aren't very good at vertical accuracy so really good horizontal accuracy can be exploited for measurements if you get clever. 1 ppm is okay, my regular scope at work is 20 ppb. You have a rise time at 500 MHz of about 700 ps, but you only know the time axis to 1 us/s. That's sort of boarder line if you are trying to find the time between pulses that occur slowly which is something people do when say counting signal photons arrival times in labs. There are plenty of other examples out there where what you care about is time not amplitude and for that just 20-50 dollars extra on the BOM can improve performance by 20-50x what this unit has.
What you on scope need is low jitter. Absolute timing error of 1 ppm on timebase set to 1us is 1ps. Unless you sample at 1 terasamples/s, that is not a problem..
You measure precision  time intervals with precision time interval counters, not with inexpensive advanced entry level scopes. That Lecroy (I'm going to presume) you talk about buys you cheap apartment....
Sometimes you need the height and the delta of pulses. The scope I'm referencing has a OCXO, it is an RTO2000. Its worth something like 60,000.
The question is whether such low phase noise does you any good. The absolute trigger jitter makes it hard to resolve pico seconds anyway and the Siglent has a digital trigger which focusses the crossings in 1 point and thus smears out the pulses allover the place. All in all you don't really need an extremely stable. low noise oscillator in an oscilloscope. Anything which contributes less than a few ps of uncertainty over a time span of 1us is good enough.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: drwho9437 on April 12, 2020, 08:27:48 pm
It really depends if you need the absolute time and height of two pulses to continue my example. Consider if an energetic particle hits a detector where the pulse height/area is a function of the energy deposited and I need to know the arrival time of the two pulses (as well as the areas). I can't really do that with a frequency counter because the height might be small (and dispersion might change the area/shape relative to the height) for one energy and large for another. If the accuracy of the time base is 1 ppm, then I know the time scale on the bottom to a fractional accuracy of 1/1000000. In the case of this scope given the sample length is only 200 Mpts, and the sample rate is 2 GSPS, then we have 1/10th of a second maximum capture length.

This means the time precision is about 1000 times better than the accuracy. If you captured a correlation between two pulses with two of these scopes exactly at the limit of their memory then the error in time could be as large as 200 ns between the two scopes in the 1/10 of a second. That's a shift of of about 400 samples between the two units if they are at the opposite extrema of their spec. If however their clocks were calibrated to 20 ppb, then it would only be 8 samples.

In truth the absolutely accuracy is less important in most cases than the stability. If you look at this decay process that's generating these particles again and again, the arrival times can be averaged though still not captured by a simple timer/counter unless you build a custom discriminator for the experiment. This is why the short term stability is important. It really just depends what you are doing with the scope. I do scientific measurements all day, both at home and at work. These tools aren't generally designed for us as we have weird corner cases but generally link all my instrument's 10 MHz inputs to a master when doing time correlated measurements and care about absolute time accuracy.

Anyway you cannot expect all instruments to be class leading, I get that, but it is possible to get better time bases than what is in most scopes for not very much money.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 12, 2020, 08:33:28 pm
I think, this "problem" or task example won´t touch any sds2000x+ user...but nice to know though.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on April 12, 2020, 08:51:51 pm
Alternative ways to 'skin this cat' worthy of some study and thought:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-_official_-siglent-sds1202x-e-thread/msg1262719/#msg1262719 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-_official_-siglent-sds1202x-e-thread/msg1262719/#msg1262719)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1182630/#msg1182630 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1182630/#msg1182630)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on April 14, 2020, 05:41:01 pm
I received my scope today. Three days after ordering from Germany. Excellent service. Sadly Miyagi's update method did not work. I get a refused connection when I try to TELNET in with Putty. The scope can see the startup.sh file that has the telnetd but I dont think its reading it on startup. Any thoughts?
Did you pay any import duties to DHL?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on April 14, 2020, 05:51:26 pm
Don´t forget to post your experiences with your new siglent - Any comment from a real owner would be useful..  :)

Quote from: thinkfat
Looks like, if all goes to plan, I'll have an SDS2104X+ delivered by DHL in the next few hours!

And does it arrive ?

No, the delivery was rescheduled, to after the holidays :(

Arrived late afternoon today. Not unboxed yet.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: stafil on April 14, 2020, 06:23:24 pm
Can you use the hack to upgrade the 2 channel version to 4 channels? The hardware is there, isn't it?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on April 14, 2020, 07:02:50 pm
Can you use the hack to upgrade the 2 channel version to 4 channels? The hardware is there, isn't it?
It looks like the 2 channel version only has 2 inputs.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: stafil on April 14, 2020, 07:05:20 pm
Can you use the hack to upgrade the 2 channel version to 4 channels? The hardware is there, isn't it?
It looks like the 2 channel version only has 2 inputs.  https://www.saelig.com/product/sds2102x-plus.htm (https://www.saelig.com/product/sds2102x-plus.htm)

Oh, thanks.. I was looking at https://siglentna.com/product/sds2102x-plus/ (https://siglentna.com/product/sds2102x-plus/)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 14, 2020, 08:01:04 pm
A bill has not arrived for duties yet.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: drwho9437 on April 15, 2020, 04:51:26 am
DHL's website seemed to suggest they would not deliver it until duties were paid if there were going to be any. Maybe others have had more experience with importing such things, but that is how I read it.

https://www.dhl.com/en/express/customs_support/duties_taxes/duties_taxes_receivers.html (https://www.dhl.com/en/express/customs_support/duties_taxes/duties_taxes_receivers.html)

3rd from last and 2nd from last bullets.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on April 15, 2020, 05:04:31 am
DHL's website seemed to suggest they would not deliver it until duties were paid if there were going to be any. Maybe others have had more experience with importing such things, but that is how I read it.

https://www.dhl.com/en/express/customs_support/duties_taxes/duties_taxes_receivers.html (https://www.dhl.com/en/express/customs_support/duties_taxes/duties_taxes_receivers.html)

3rd from last and 2nd from last bullets.
Yeah that's how they roll for me on the odd occasion I bring a single unit into NZ. Just call their help line with the tracking # and a credit card handy.

You can search their site with the tracking # and see each time it's scanned and normally it gets flagged if there's any import charges due. If they have your info on the shipping label they might even get in touch instead of needing to hunt them out. They might require proof of purchase so have a pdf of the invoice handy too.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on April 15, 2020, 10:24:47 am
Don´t forget to post your experiences with your new siglent - Any comment from a real owner would be useful..  :)

Quote from: thinkfat
Looks like, if all goes to plan, I'll have an SDS2104X+ delivered by DHL in the next few hours!

And does it arrive ?

No, the delivery was rescheduled, to after the holidays :(

Arrived late afternoon today. Not unboxed yet.

Unboxing done, it's now on my bench replacing the venerable Rigol DS1054Z. I really like the industrial design, it looks way more professional than the "Chinese Baroque" of the Rigol.

Playing around with the FFT right now. Overall a very nice instrument.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: TK on April 15, 2020, 01:29:24 pm
DHL's website seemed to suggest they would not deliver it until duties were paid if there were going to be any. Maybe others have had more experience with importing such things, but that is how I read it.

https://www.dhl.com/en/express/customs_support/duties_taxes/duties_taxes_receivers.html (https://www.dhl.com/en/express/customs_support/duties_taxes/duties_taxes_receivers.html)

3rd from last and 2nd from last bullets.
My experience with DHL is that they put packages on hold if there is outstanding custom duties and you receive a call from the local office to settle payment before package is delivered.  UPS and Fedex deliver the packages and then they send you the invoice.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 15, 2020, 02:42:44 pm
No bill has arrived from DHL. I've had the scope since Friday. I really like this instrument. Going to try some Bode plots of an amplifier using the sig gen. So far its a gem.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on April 15, 2020, 02:51:21 pm
No bill has arrived from DHL. I've had the scope since Friday. I really like this instrument. Going to try some Bode plots of an amplifier using the sig gen. So far its a gem.

Maybe there's no customs duties, but I'd make sure that you're not responsible personally to pay some sales tax or VAT in your country...

Since you mention Bode plots - I have a Siglent Wavegen that's craving to be hooked up to the scope ;)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: stafil on April 15, 2020, 08:17:25 pm
Looks like welectron is out of stock,  SDS2000X Plus is becoming as scarce as toilet paper
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on April 15, 2020, 08:23:30 pm
Batronix had stock when I looked a week ago.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on April 15, 2020, 08:26:37 pm
Still in stock at Batronix. Im so close to order one just for testing  :palm:

For DHL, I always have to pay before the delivery. So it seems that someone got a good deal  8)
With coronavirus, there may be holes in customs.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: stafil on April 15, 2020, 08:27:25 pm
Batronix had stock when I looked a week ago.

Do they have an EEVblog discount?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 15, 2020, 08:34:57 pm
Don´t know, but you got the possibility to add a coupon code.
Welectron disclaim to have it on 17.04. on stock again.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on April 15, 2020, 10:12:40 pm
Dear Easter Bunny...
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 15, 2020, 10:18:20 pm
 ;D :-+

He´s loving colouring the eggs... 8)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on April 15, 2020, 10:29:48 pm
Dear Easter Bunny...
Not thank you Easter Bunny ?  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 15, 2020, 10:33:31 pm
 ;D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: drwho9437 on April 16, 2020, 03:57:45 am
No bill has arrived from DHL. I've had the scope since Friday. I really like this instrument. Going to try some Bode plots of an amplifier using the sig gen. So far its a gem.

Maybe there's no customs duties, but I'd make sure that you're not responsible personally to pay some sales tax or VAT in your country...

Since you mention Bode plots - I have a Siglent Wavegen that's craving to be hooked up to the scope ;)

In the US in most states you are required to pay sales taxes on your annual state taxes as "sales and use" but it is generally not followed by most people who don't even understand the requirement. Some exceptions apply as well about having to pay sales tax even then, though state laws vary (just as state sales taxes vary).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on April 16, 2020, 07:51:32 am
Nice little case study with a SDS2354X Plus:
https://siglentna.com/application-note/analyzing-gsm-radio-protocol-with-a-siglent-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope/
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on April 16, 2020, 03:04:38 pm
Hello,

Little question :
Does anyone know the ADC reference?
Is it the same as on the previous vesions (SDS2000 and SDS2000x ) ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on April 16, 2020, 09:42:39 pm
ADC08D1000      >:D

I bet this is this one.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 16, 2020, 10:20:56 pm
Betting is not knowing…. ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on April 17, 2020, 08:14:07 am
Betting is not knowing…. ;)

So it is why I choose the verb "to bet" instead of "to know"   ;D
But Im pretty sure it is this one.

You have one. I'm sure you have a big hammer too or a crowbar at home, so that's the story of a few minutes only.
Go to work Martin  >:D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on April 17, 2020, 08:18:39 am
Betting is not knowing…. ;)

So it is why I choose the verb "to bet" instead of "to know"   ;D
But Im pretty sure it is this one.

You have one. I'm sure you have a big hammer too or a crowbar at home, so that's the story of a few minutes only.
Go to work Martin  >:D
Maybe it is the same as used in SDS2000X-E also.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 17, 2020, 05:40:29 pm
So what do you guys think about purchasing the Siglent LA probe set vs buying a decent USB- based LA? I like having HW based decoding. Im mostly doing SPI, I2S, I2C. Trying to decide whats the best way forward. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: 2N3055 on April 17, 2020, 06:05:27 pm
So what do you guys think about purchasing the Siglent LA probe set vs buying a decent USB- based LA? I like having HW based decoding. Im mostly doing SPI, I2S, I2C. Trying to decide whats the best way forward. Any thoughts?
I have MSO, and being able to correlate analog/digital is very useful. Also DSOs usually have great serial triggers. USB LA have very basic triggering.
SDS2000X+ has a lot of memory so it should be able to capture lots of packets, especially using segments and intelligent triggering.

My experience is that if you need to correlate analog/digital and if you are looking at decoding at "hardware" level MSO is best. Like checking if things are flowing right between components of the system.
If you need to develop/debug "software" side of protocols (data centric, developing and debugging messages itself) than USB based LA is very useful.

But with long mem scope like SDS200X+ (or Picoscope as I have)  you probably can do most of what is needed. You can always buy one of those cheapo LA clones and use with Pulseview, for ultra long sequences and decode on PC. I think that would be most powerful combination.
That's my opinion based on my experience.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: maginnovision on April 17, 2020, 06:09:37 pm
I'm pretty much with 2N3055. I almost always use my MSO and only take the LA out when I need more than the 16 digital channels it has. Typically those analog signals are needed too.

One other thing I do is feed scope trigger out to trigger of LA. Then duplicate at least a single signal to make sure I can correlate data. That's usually when I end up needing a lot of logic(sometimes all of scopes and the 32 of LA) and the analog signals. Saves time due to the effort of making all the connections. All my Protos have headers for logic these days or an addon for that purpose
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: douggoldberg on April 17, 2020, 07:04:15 pm
Thanks guys. Im convinced. Placing order for probe set. They better be really good for that kind of $$.

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 17, 2020, 07:31:43 pm
@ Sinisa,

Here are the max. frames the siglent can decode (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2943854/#msg2943854)


Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on April 17, 2020, 08:18:59 pm
Thanks guys. Im convinced. Placing order for probe set. They better be really good for that kind of $$.
It is nice but I agree it's overpriced.

AFAIK it edge connects to what looks like a PCI-e finger socket on the MB then splits into the 2 multicore flat cables.
A custom PCI-e socket plug is used for the twin flat cable.
Unknown if there are active bits in the cable ends where the breakdown headers then connect.

We should do some analysis I guess, even bussing bits of it out with a DMM might tell us lots.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 17, 2020, 08:37:13 pm
You have one. I'm sure you have a big hammer too or a crowbar at home, so that's the story of a few minutes only.
Go to work Martin  >:D

Mhh…
Normally I don´t like to open functional units  ;)

Quote
It is nice but I agree it's overpriced.

In this case, rigol and siglent are brothers... ;D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on April 17, 2020, 08:51:09 pm

Quote
It is nice but I agree it's overpriced.

In this case, rigol and siglent are brothers... ;D
Nope, not in SDS2kX, SDS5kX or SDS2kX Plus, none of that cheap arsed flat IDE ribbon cable rubbish !  :P
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 17, 2020, 09:08:39 pm
Rob... ;)

Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on April 17, 2020, 09:50:40 pm
Still playing around with the instrument, I really like the FFT implementation. It's easy to set up and I totally dig the markers.

I measured a 10MHz Butterworth low-pass filter that is supposed to create a sine from a square wave by suppressing the harmonics and it's really nice being able to just set markers on all harmonics and then see how many dB the most prominent harmonic is below the carrier. The only grief I have that it seems not possible to set the vertical config to dBc instead of dBVrms or dBm. I get the absolute value of every marker and a simple subtraction addition gives me what I need, but it would nevertheless be more convenient to just have marker #1 setting the reference and then listing all other markers relative to marker #1.

Anyway - with the DS1054Z and its toy FFT, I was barely able to see that the highest harmonic was maybe better than -40dBc. With the SDS2000X+, I can clearly see it's -50dBc.

This is going to make my life a lot easier :-D
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on April 17, 2020, 10:18:44 pm

Quote
It is nice but I agree it's overpriced.

In this case, rigol and siglent are brothers... ;D
Nope, not in SDS2kX, SDS5kX or SDS2kX Plus, none of that cheap arsed flat IDE ribbon cable rubbish !  :P

But it is easy to hack on MSO5000  :)
On higher range, Rigol use the exact same PCI-e connector as Siglent.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on April 17, 2020, 11:16:24 pm
On higher range, Rigol use the exact same PCI-e connector as Siglent.
It would be interesting to understand what connector is being used for the MSO exactly. Regular PCIe / Micro-SAS connectors for example have a limit of 30 to 50 mating cycles. Using such a connector wouldn't be a good choice.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Emo on April 18, 2020, 09:49:44 am
The connectors have no identification whatsoever. They look sturdy and the flat cables feel "rubber" like

Eric
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on April 18, 2020, 09:53:44 am
The connectors have no identification whatsoever. They look sturdy and the flat cables feel "rubber" like

Eric
:)
Cross posting with more pics:
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: nctnico on April 18, 2020, 10:14:00 am
Thanks for the pictures. That is the same connector which is used for a standard PCI express slot indeed. That is a rather bad choice. Even this thick gold plated one from Molex specifies 50 mating cycles:
https://www.molex.com/molex/products/part-detail/edge_card_connecto/0877159006 (https://www.molex.com/molex/products/part-detail/edge_card_connecto/0877159006)
Using one or two HDMI connectors would have been a much wiser choice. HDMI also exists in a wider 29 pin B variant. These connectors are made for regular use and can be build to last thousands of mating cycles.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 18, 2020, 10:23:18 am
Mating cycles are indeed an interesting point.
eSATA connections for example got 5000 mating cycles vs only 50 for internal SATA ( what makes sense, once plugged in you leave it plugged in).
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: tautech on April 18, 2020, 10:29:04 am
Thanks for the pictures. That is the same connector which is used for a standard PCI express slot indeed. That is a rather bad choice. Even this thick gold plated one from Molex specifies 50 mating cycles:
https://www.molex.com/molex/products/part-detail/edge_card_connecto/0877159006 (https://www.molex.com/molex/products/part-detail/edge_card_connecto/0877159006)
Yes well if we give some thought to the possible configuration used when there are 36 socket connections for 16 MSO channels, would each channel consist of a differential pair ?

Some initial buzzing out suggests there is some active circuitry in both the lead breakout sets and the flat pair cable assembly. All cable ends are not hermetically sealed instead they appear to have a clipped in portion that might need X-rays to determine how they might come apart.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: jemangedeslolos on April 18, 2020, 10:31:56 am
On higher range, Rigol use the exact same PCI-e connector as Siglent.
It would be interesting to understand what connector is being used for the MSO exactly. Regular PCIe / Micro-SAS connectors for example have a limit of 30 to 50 mating cycles. Using such a connector wouldn't be a good choice.

Hello ntnico,
I don't know what the exact reference is.
It seems to be a regular 36P PCI-E connector.

Maybe the 50 mating cycle are here to maintain integrity performance at max speed ( > 8Gbps )
You can also separate the probes from the scope without necessarily removing the plug but it's true that 50 mating cycle is not a lot !
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on April 18, 2020, 12:59:07 pm
Bode plot of the same 10MHz low-pass filter, signal input from separate SDG2042X:
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on April 18, 2020, 06:12:17 pm
And this is what proper probing gets you. Q of the filter is a bit high, it seems, there's a visible resonance, but not too bad.
[attachimg=1]

And the FFT of the filter output (into 50\$\Omega\$).
[attachimg=2]
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Martin72 on April 18, 2020, 06:26:19 pm
Hm, where does the peak come from... ???
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: thinkfat on April 18, 2020, 07:07:26 pm
Hm, where does the peak come from... ???

The amplitude peak? No idea where it comes from, it should not be there. Something's in resonance here. The filter is designed for 50\$\Omega\$ in and out and if I'm not mistaken, the SDG2042X matches that.

The peak (or rather, discontinuity) in the phase plot is where the phase changes slope at the resonant frequency of the filter.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: drwho9437 on April 19, 2020, 03:16:41 am
This is not a complaint (given the world situation right now, otherwise it would be) but just a warning for people given the comments that Welectron shipped quickly. Clearly there are complications I ordered 10 days ago and while they charged me for the item ~5 days ago they have not shipped the scope yet. Communication takes 1-2 business days to get a reply, Saelig was faster in replies but I think their backlog of orders quite long if any others in the US are looking to get one of these.
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: stafil on April 19, 2020, 05:06:51 am
This is not a complaint (given the world situation right now, otherwise it would be) but just a warning for people given the comments that Welectron shipped quickly. Clearly there are complications I ordered 10 days ago and while they charged me for the item ~5 days ago they have not shipped the scope yet. Communication takes 1-2 business days to get a reply, Saelig was faster in replies but I think their backlog of orders quite long if any others in the US are looking to get one of these.

Talk to Marco, he will either give you a good ETA. If you are not happy with it, you can always ask for a refund. I had no problem getting a refund
Title: Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
Post by: Frex on April 19, 2020, 07:30:29 am
Hello thinkfat (and others),

and thank you for your Bode plots screen-shoots.
They are very interesting.

I would have few questions about it :
Does we need to use only the internal generator of the scope to use Bode plot features ?
What is the effective dynamic range of the Bode plot ?
For example, if we test low 4 order low-pass filter at 1kHz, what is the attenuation floor the plot
allow to reach far beyond cutoff frequency ? (-60dB ? -80 dB , more ?).
How many points can be used in Bode plot ? (important to see real depth level of narrow notch filter