EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: tautech on November 13, 2019, 07:12:39 pm
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New models similar to the SDS5000X form factor but with revised front panel layout and whispered release is early 2020.
(https://int.siglent.com/u_file/product/19_12_27/e7bd553350.png)
2 GSa/s, BW's 70 to 500 MHz only 100, 200 and 350 MHz models to western markets. BW upgrade option to 500 MHz available (for 2 channels to meet 500 MHz BW)
Storage depth up to 200 Mpts/ch
120,000 wfm/s
2 or 4ch models.
8 and 10 bit modes
10" touch display with keyboard and mouse support
16ch MSO option
Standard Decodes: IIC, SPI, UART, CAN, LIN. Optional: CAN FD, FlexRay, IIS, MIL-STD-1553B each $269
(Sent and Manchester decodes added in FW V1.3.7R5 Nov20)
2 Mpts FFT.
1M and 50 Ohm inputs.
Auto probe sense.
Inbuilt 50 MHz AWG option $219
Power Analysis option $269
BW upgrade options
Released Jan 16 2020
https://int.siglent.com/products-overview/sds2000xp/ (https://int.siglent.com/products-overview/sds2000xp/)
https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/ (https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/)
https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/)
SDS2102X Plus $ 999
SDS2104X Plus $ 1399
SDS2204X Plus $ 2199
SDS2354X Plus $ 2999
Upgrade SDS2354X Plus bandwidth to 500 MHz (Only two channels) $1,399, others available.
Siglent video 70s
https://youtu.be/5Gl1O8YHUso (https://youtu.be/5Gl1O8YHUso)
First look at the SDS2104X Plus by Defpom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHH4H8Q7IWg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHH4H8Q7IWg)
June 3 2020
Dave has a dive into the insides of the 350 MHz SDS2354X Plus, installs the 500 MHz BW option by way of a hack and finishes with a tangle with the 10 bit mode.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxzQS-Bn2R0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxzQS-Bn2R0)
Howardlong comparison video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93QUNt1z6Gw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93QUNt1z6Gw)
X-Y mode from post #1432
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNoSyZr9uTA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNoSyZr9uTA)
Note: since all above videos were done some firmware releases have been released that have addressed issues identified.
POI list
Mainboard replacement:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4176037/#msg4176037 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4176037/#msg4176037)
Dot mode discussion, this post and following:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3993869/#msg3993869 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3993869/#msg3993869)
Performa01 Report
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds2000x-plus-bandwidth-aliasing-application-note/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds2000x-plus-bandwidth-aliasing-application-note/)
Member TK's LA adapter:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3079002/#msg3079002 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3079002/#msg3079002)
Probe autosense values:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3485070/#msg3485070 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3485070/#msg3485070)
DIY LA probe:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/)
Fan replacement. ::)
Reply #2939 and later.
Curve tracer:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4421626/#msg4421626 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4421626/#msg4421626)
Hard case options:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2104x-hard-shell-carry-case-hc-1-363236/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2104x-hard-shell-carry-case-hc-1-363236/)
WiFi connectivity solution
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4973206/#msg4973206 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4973206/#msg4973206)
DIY Deskew project
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/scope-probe-deskew-fixture-pcb-project/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/scope-probe-deskew-fixture-pcb-project/)
Siglent SDS2000X Plus firmware webpage:
https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=53 (https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=53)
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Looks nice. Question is price. <$3500 for 500mhz and it's a killer.
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Probe detection but not probe supply? Great compromise for the entry class but I guess the SDS2000X will be more a mid-range scope from Siglent's point of view.
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Actual 10 bit or interpolation? Probably the latter.
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Will it have true pulse width measurement where you can set the mid-measurement references? Now all pulses are read at 50%. Also will the Cursor Control be easier to use the in some of their other scopes? I'm game for buying a new scope at the end of this year (expense it off) for my business, but I have been burned by Siglent last year, so I would need to get my hands on one before I decide to purchase it.
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Looks nice. Question is price. <$3500 for 500mhz and it's a killer.
Price aligns close to the 350 MHz SDS5034X or just a little less, so yes ~$3500 for SDS2504X Plus however at this early time it's only a best guess. :)
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Will be mine >:D
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Looks nice. Question is price. <$3500 for 500mhz and it's a killer.
The SDS2000X Plus is the successor of the SDS2000X, hence it is a 2000 class instrument and pricing will be accordingly. I can only speculate, but of course don't expect it to absolutely match the current SDS2000X line, since these are on sale already.
Probe detection but not probe supply? Great compromise for the entry class but I guess the SDS2000X will be more a mid-range scope from Siglent's point of view.
The SDS2000X series had automatic probe detection right from the start, so this is nothing new in this class.
The SDS2000X Plus is a top entry level scope with regard to its hardware, but it will have many (most) of the current SDS5000X firmware features. In some instances it is already even more advanced! Together with the touch UI it can be considered to be the little brother of the SDS5000X much more than the big brother of the SDS2000X-E.
Actual 10 bit or interpolation? Probably the latter.
Please note that Siglent does not advertise this DSO as 10bit. There is a 10bit acquisition mode that is accomplished by oversampling and has a fixed 100MHz bandwidth.
When I first heard about it, I have to admit that I thought the 10bit mode was just a marketing gag – until I got my hands on the first pre-production unit. This mode works amazingly well and believe it or not, is almost indistinguishable from a true 10bit ADC. DNL and INL of the existing 8bit ADC are quite obviously good enough to allow that sort of resolution enhancement without visual nonlinearities.
The SDS200X Plus includes the first implementation of a vertical zoom feature, which is not available even in the SDS5000X (yet):
[attachimg=1 width=800]
SDS2354X+_Zoom_10bit
Here we can see a sine acquired in 10bit mode at 20mV/div. In zoom mode, we have amplified the bottom end of the signal to 5mV/div and still get a super clean waveform without any jaggies.
Will it have true pulse width measurement where you can set the mid-measurement references? Now all pulses are read at 50%. Also will the Cursor Control be easier to use the in some of their other scopes? I'm game for buying a new scope at the end of this year (expense it off) for my business, but I have been burned by Siglent last year, so I would need to get my hands on one before I decide to purchase it.
Pulse width measurement with user defined threshold level (Pulse width @ level) is not supported yet. I've made sure that this measurement (among others) is on the todo list for the SDS5000X and this means we can certainly get it for the SDS2000X Plus as well.
The Cursors handling is much better with the touch screen UI. You can directly select the various cursors in a list and drag the cursors by touch control on top of that:
[attachimg=2 width=800]
SDS2354X+_Cursors
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@Performa01: Does Siglent have any plans to get rid of the automatic memory depth setting? For me the automatic memory depth adjustment is a total productivity killer. It annoyed the hell out of me during the short time I had the SDS2000.
And how about full memory decoding? It is about time Siglent addresses this too.
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Looks like the Chinese website has pricing for the plus. If so, a comparison for that market could be made. From my calculations the 4 channel 100MHz model is around 1700 USD.
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I assume 2GSa/s is only true for one channel or two at maximum. So, what is the sample rate for 4 channels?
Actually, while 2GS/s could be considered enough for 500MHz I guess (even though I'd personally want at least 5GSa/s), 1GS/s or even less per channel would make the higher bandwidth somewhat questionable.
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2 GSa/s, BW's 70 to 500 MHz, Storage depth up to 200 Mpts/ch
2 or 4ch models.
8 and 10 bit modes
10" touch display with keyboard and mouse support
16ch MSO option
Standard Decodes: IIC, SPI, UART, CAN, LIN. Optional: CAN FD, FlexRay, IIS, MIL-STD-1553B
2 Mpts FFT.
1M and 50 Ohm inputs.
Inbuilt AWG option
Power Analysis option
2 GSa/s....hm-hm.
What I don´t understand (in general) are the bandwith things starting with 70Mhz....why 70Mhz, is this a "magic" barrier….
Also the 2-Ch/4-Ch thing.
Why not 4-Ch and 100Mhz as the lowest entry…
50 Ohm Inputs, thumbs up :-+
Also the 2 Mpts FFT and inbuild AWG option plus power analyzis option could be a hint to a relationship to the SDS3000 platform.
8bit and 10bit mode.....is this a benefit...
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I assume 2GSa/s is only true for one channel or two at maximum.
Traditional architecture is a single ADC for 2 channels and dual ADC's for 4 channels so if they're 2 GSa/s sampling rate will be halved with 2 active channels on the same ADC.
So, what is the sample rate for 4 channels?
Based on the above explanation of Siglent's traditional architecture, 1 GSa/s of course.
Actually, while 2GS/s could be considered enough for 500MHz I guess (even though I'd personally want at least 5GSa/s), 1GS/s or even less per channel would make the higher bandwidth somewhat questionable.
Most buyers of this class of scope (low mid range) will understand the tradeoff of sampling rate vs frequency (aliasing) and select sufficient a sampling rate for their frequencies of interest or be quite aware to use just one channel on each ADC.
As rf-loop would say, there are no free lunches. :)
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Finally someone made a scope that checked all the boxes of what I am looking for. I really wanted something that one on the bottom rung of a mid-range scope 4 ch 100Mhz, touchscreen, 50 ohm inputs, MSO option, looks nice on the bench, etc!!
I was hoping to get something at around $1k to $1.3k which is the max of my budget. I think the price is fair at $1.7k since I was looking at 8 inch screens and this is a 10 inch. I will just have to spend more time saving up. I think Siglent will sell a lot of these!
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Finally someone made a scope that checked all the boxes of what I am looking for. I really wanted something that one on the bottom rung of a mid-range scope 4 ch 100Mhz, touchscreen, 50 ohm inputs, MSO option, looks nice on the bench, etc!!
There's some really good deals on the bit older 8" display SDS2304X, trouble is decode is optional and additional cost. :(
https://siglentna.com/product/sds2304x-clearance/
These have all the above specs you wanted except touch.
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I assume 2GSa/s is only true for one channel or two at maximum. So, what is the sample rate for 4 channels?
Actually, while 2GS/s could be considered enough for 500MHz I guess (even though I'd personally want at least 5GSa/s), 1GS/s or even less per channel would make the higher bandwidth somewhat questionable.
Tektronix was doing 2.5GS/S sampling and 300MHz, 20 years ago. Why is it so difficult for these new scopes to get to 2GS/s today? Yea, the Tek TDS3000 were and are damn expensive, but I can not believe those 2.5GS/S parts cost that much these days. I guess you are paying for the technology and development costs more than the parts.
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@Performa01: Does Siglent have any plans to get rid of the automatic memory depth setting? For me the automatic memory depth adjustment is a total productivity killer. It annoyed the hell out of me during the short time I had the SDS2000.
The short answer is no, sorry.
What engineers want to do is capture a record that represents a certain timespan. What is easier and feels more natural:
• Select the main timebase for the required total timespan and then adjust the zoom timebase for closer inspection of details
or
• Calculate the required memory depth from the required timespan and current sample rate, dig into the Acquisition menu to select the appropriate memory depth (provided it could be selected with similar fine granularity as the timebase) and then have to scroll back and forth through the buffer in order to inspect the entire acquisition
?
The zoom window supports math, automatic and cursor measurements as well as mask test.
The maximal record length can be limited in order to reduce the sample rate and/or get more history segments.
Any acquisition strategy that would hide a single sample from instant view would annoy the hell out of me. Thankfully, Siglent will continue to follow PicoTech and LeCroy in this regard.
We get a lot of feedback from professional Siglent users and I think it's most indicative that not one has ever questioned this acquisition strategy.
And how about full memory decoding? It is about time Siglent addresses this too.
This is a (mis)leading question. While there are certain (protocol dependent) limits for the total number of table entries (bytes, words, double words, packets) which in turn obviously limits the maximum record length that can be fully decoded (at least if oversampling is low), not many apart from you would consider the following screenshot with a total of 45 decoded I2C messages as not full memory decoding:
[attachimg=1 width=800]
SDS2354X+_Digital_I2C_5Mpts_Serial_Start_3
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@Performa01: Does Siglent have any plans to get rid of the automatic memory depth setting? For me the automatic memory depth adjustment is a total productivity killer. It annoyed the hell out of me during the short time I had the SDS2000.
The short answer is no, sorry.
What engineers want to do is capture a record that represents a certain timespan. What is easier and feels more natural:
• Select the main timebase for the required total timespan and then adjust the zoom timebase for closer inspection of details
or
• Calculate the required memory depth from the required timespan and current sample rate, dig into the Acquisition menu to select the appropriate memory depth (provided it could be selected with similar fine granularity as the timebase) and then have to scroll back and forth through the buffer in order to inspect the entire acquisition
?
You (and Siglent) forgot one very simple use case: trigger on part of a signal and when that looks OK change the timebase to look at the rest of the signal (which was outside the screen during capture). I use this regulary during design verification. And this is much easier to achieve than you think: just set the oscilloscope to the maximum memory depth and leave it at that. I have my oscilloscopes set to the maximum memory depth 99.9% of the time. It is very handy to be able zoom out or pan left/right to examine the signal which was outside the screen. With Siglent's automatic memory depth I'd need to change the time base for each capture twice which is just time consuming and irritating. And why not have the maximum memory depth available? Otherwise the memory just sits there idle anyway.
And how about full memory decoding? It is about time Siglent addresses this too.
This is a (mis)leading question. While there are certain (protocol dependent) limits for the total number of table entries (bytes, words, double words, packets) which in turn obviously limits the maximum record length that can be fully decoded (at least if oversampling is low), not many apart from you would consider the following screenshot with a total of 45 decoded I2C messages as not full memory decoding:
(Attachment Link)
SDS2354X+_Digital_I2C_5Mpts_Serial_Start_3
It is not a misleading question. Ofcourse there is a limit to the buffer but (again) none of the A-brands needs to use zoom mode to show details of a message with the start of the message off-screen. Zoom mode eats screen real-estate and may impose limitations. As long as zoom is necessary decoding on Siglent scopes is just less useful.
I know you do testing for Siglent but you should very seriously consider getting some other A-brand scopes in your lab and compare the Siglent scopes with these. You'll see the A-brands have a lot of tiny things which greatly improve useability and thus productivity. Siglent is moving forward but they still miss out on some of the basic stuff the A-brands have figured out for many years already. IMHO that is a shame because things like fixed memory depth and full memory decoding are deal breakers for the professional market.
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2x 2GSa/s for 4Ch x 500Mhz, seriously?
So far Siglent was aiming at least 2.5 times sampling rate (which is still the bare minimum only) and was not giving marketing gimmicks.
I also don't see the point of so many DSO variants as Siglent has now.
With proper pricing tons of SDS5000X and SDS2000X could have been sold for hobbyists and repair shops (for others all of these offerings are just entry level). I don't see how this kind of fragmented offerings help Siglent.
How big of a jump is from 200 Mhz to 350Mhz or from 350Mhz to 500Mhz (that is not always working + let's not forget the shared controls) or from 1Mpts FFT to 2Mpts FFT?
There should not be anything below 200 MHz in this category in my view.
The 50 Ohm inputs are indeed welcome. I have mixed feelings about the 10 bits, good that finally they have also this (since probably it's just SW) but this is something that most people can live without (and would not pay much).
Even having the money I could not decide, since I don't feel that this offering is future proof, especially with the given sampling rate. That's quite a show stopper. It should have been 2.5Gsa/s or more.
I must still look further for a decent 500MHz DSO...
You (and Siglent) forgot one very simple use case: trigger on part of a signal and when that looks OK change the timebase to look at the rest of the signal (which was outside the screen during capture). I use this regulary during design verification. And this is much easier to achieve than you think: just set the oscilloscope to the maximum memory depth and leave it at that. I have my oscilloscopes set to the maximum memory depth 99.9% of the time. It is very handy to be able zoom out or pan left/right to examine the signal which was outside the screen. With Siglent's automatic memory depth I'd need to change the time base for each capture twice which is just time consuming and irritating. And why not have the maximum memory depth available? Otherwise the memory just sits there idle anyway.
That's an absolutely good point. Second me on this.
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I also don't see the point of so many DSO variants as Siglent has now.
Some will be phased out as their capabilities are low for the marketplace now.
The 50 Ohm inputs are indeed welcome.
Nothing new here, SDS1000X (not X-E), SDS2000, SDS2000X, SDS2000X-E and SDS5000X all have 50 Ohm inputs.
I must still look further for a decent 500MHz DSO...
:-// SDS5054X ?
@ Performa01
Can you check total mem depth in History mode when in Decode ?
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:-// SDS5054X ?
It's way out of my price range and anyhow roughly around that money one can buy a used but fully vendor checked Keysight MSOX3104T and while I'm certain that some if its specs are weaker but it's still a 1GHz scope.
I'm not biased by brand or don't necessarily look for a brand new device (provided that it's not ages old) but do you think that it provides the same value?
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Some folks seem to expect a fully fledged 500MHz DSO for dirt cheap. But the SDS2000X+ is just going to be an affordably priced 2000 series top entry level DSO/MSO. At 500MHz, we are entering midrange territory.
What do the 2000 series of other (“A-brand”) manufacturers offer?
I only list Keysight DSO-X 2000 and R&S RTB 2000, because LeCroy doesn’t have anything in this class.
• Max. Bandwidth: Keysight 200MHz, R&S 300MHz
• Max. Sample Rate: Keysight 2GSa/s, R&S 2.5GSa/s
• Max. Memory: Keysight 1Mpts/ch, R&S 10Mpts/ch (160Mpts option)
• Display: Keysight 8.5” non-touch, R&S 10” touch
• FFT: Keysight 64kpts, R&S 128kpts
Granted, R&S has the big advantage of the 10bit ADC here, but does the Siglent SDS2000X+ really look bad when it has 350MHz bandwidth with a 500MHz option for half channel mode, 2GSa/s, 100Mpts/ch standard, 10” touchscreen, 2Mpts FFT and many features as standard that are paid options for the “A-brands”?
Keysight offers 70, 100 and 200MHz models, R&S has 70, 100, 200 and 300MHz models. There are quite some below 200MHz, right?
Siglent of all companies have too many variants? They offer only 200MHz for the bottom end SDS1202X-E, only 100 and 200MHz for the entry level SDS1004X-E, only 200 and 350MHz for the SDS2002X-E (a bridge device to the 2000 series for analog engineers, who want bandwidth at a low price and don’t need more than two channels) – and right now we do not even know what bandwidth variations of the SDS2000X+ we’ll actually get!
The shared controls are a problem for the Siglent 2000+, but not R&S and LeCroy?
I agree that it can be confusing, that there are some long obsolete DSOs still listed. The obvious reason is that there is still a demand for them in some countries.
Anyway, it should be quite obvious that the SDS2000X+ is not going to be a fully fledged 500MHz DSO. But for people who only need that bandwidth occasionally and can make do with half the channels in these situations, this might be an attractive offer.
Can you check total mem depth in History mode when in Decode ?
No matter whether it’s decoding or not, history is always close to the total memory size, i.e. 180~200Mpts per channel pair.
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There's some really good deals on the bit older 8" display SDS2304X, trouble is decode is optional and additional cost. :(
https://siglentna.com/product/sds2304x-clearance/
These have all the above specs you wanted except touch.
The problem is "except touch"... that is the main feature I want :-BROKE ;D
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:-// SDS5054X ?
It's way out of my price range and anyhow roughly around that money one can buy a used but fully vendor checked Keysight MSOX3104T and while I'm certain that some if its specs are weaker but it's still a 1GHz scope.
So is my SDS5104X SDS5054X ;) that Dave tested as best value in the 1 GHz range.
I'm not biased by brand or don't necessarily look for a brand new device (provided that it's not ages old) but do you think that it provides the same value?
Yeah I understand budget always dictates what we can stretch to so then it comes down to the feature set required.
As always, one must do their homework.
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Can you check total mem depth in History mode when in Decode ?
No matter whether it’s decoding or not, history is always close to the total memory size, i.e. 180~200Mpts per channel pair.
Have you double checked this ?
IIRC rf-loop said History in SDS1004X-E was in the order of 56 Mpts while officially their mem depth is just 14 Mpts x 2, 14 for each ADC. So as I understand it History depth is unrelated to official mem depth and generally a good bit bigger.
Or have I got this all wrong ? :-//
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Yes, the SDS1004X-E provides up to 54Mpts per channel pair, the SDS5000X has up to 433Mpts per channel pair - and both have come as a surprise, since I don't think it has ever been specified that way.
Yet the SDS2000X+ is actually limited to <200Mpts per channel pair with the current pre-release FW.
I think this is still very acceptable for its class and price range - there is just no nice surprise in the form of a hidden present in this regard.
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Keysight offers 70, 100 and 200MHz models, R&S has 70, 100, 200 and 300MHz models. There are quite some below 200MHz, right?
I didn't mean Siglent only for this kind of low bandwidth models but it's an ancient old marketing trick that no vendor can resist: Look we have this sky high feature and the prices of some of our models start only this low and then they expect people to connect these 2 things. Surely it works for many people but does it work for people who do engineering stuff (where logical thinking and good memory is basic pre-requisite)? Anyhow, unless these models can be hacked (mainly an option for hobbyist only) they probably sell quite badly.
Maybe these stretched models sell well in some countries, I don't know, time will tell.
I don't like (and I'm probably not alone with this) shared controls no matter of the vendor. A well implemented touch screen maybe masks this a bit but it's still to be seen.
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Hello,
I have to say that Im a little bit disappointed by this 2000X+
I had a 2204X and I'm waiting patiently for his replacement.
The 10 inch touch screen are a very great improvement. I have a MSO5000 at home and I use the touch screen all the time.
I'm sure there will be plenty of great features but the shared control |O
Maybe a big touch screen + shared control are not so annoying.
And I was hoping a bit more in terms of sample rate.
I think Siglent has made some choices not to walk over on the SDS5000X market.
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I didn't mean Siglent only for this kind of low bandwidth models but it's an ancient old marketing trick that no vendor can resist: Look we have this sky high feature and the prices of some of our models start only this low and then they expect people to connect these 2 things. Surely it works for many people but does it work for people who do engineering stuff (where logical thinking and good memory is basic pre-requisite)? Anyhow, unless these models can be hacked (mainly an option for hobbyist only) they probably sell quite badly.
Well, it obviously works for all the so called "A-brands", where your criticism is certainly justified. Enterprises can negotiate some (artificially) expensive options for free and feel like a winner.
Siglent of all brands, appears to have a mostly reasonable marketing strategy. Price premium for higher bandwidth is bearable except for the SDS5000X, where the higher bandwidth models actually have a more costly frontend compared to the 350MHz model.
With regard to options, the Siglent scopes are fairly complete from the outset. There are no memory options and almost all software features are standard, only exception would be some exotic packages like Power Analysis. All the popular serial triggers and decoders are included for free and the rest is reasonably priced, even on the SDS5000X. This is also true for the MSO option.
Even enterprises don’t have unlimited budgets for their T&M requirements anymore (some never had) and this is even true for the aerospace industry. Even big companies do not need high end scopes for all their departments, all the more so as today even entry level instruments offer performance and features only found in top end devices not too long ago. Given your statements, I guess you would be flabbergasted if I you knew the percentage in the Siglent sales statistics which are enterprise purchases these days…
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I didn't mean Siglent only for this kind of low bandwidth models but it's an ancient old marketing trick that no vendor can resist: Look we have this sky high feature and the prices of some of our models start only this low and then they expect people to connect these 2 things. Surely it works for many people but does it work for people who do engineering stuff (where logical thinking and good memory is basic pre-requisite)? Anyhow, unless these models can be hacked (mainly an option for hobbyist only) they probably sell quite badly.
Well, it obviously works for all the so called "A-brands", where your criticism is certainly justified. Enterprises can negotiate some (artificially) expensive options for free and feel like a winner.
Siglent of all brands, appears to have a mostly reasonable marketing strategy. Price premium for higher bandwidth is bearable except for the SDS5000X, where the higher bandwidth models actually have a more costly frontend compared to the 350MHz model.
With regard to options, the Siglent scopes are fairly complete from the outset. There are no memory options and almost all software features are standard, only exception would be some exotic packages like Power Analysis. All the popular serial triggers and decoders are included for free and the rest is reasonably priced, even on the SDS5000X. This is also true for the MSO option.
Even enterprises don’t have unlimited budgets for their T&M requirements anymore (some never had) and this is even true for the aerospace industry. Even big companies do not need high end scopes for all their departments, all the more so as today even entry level instruments offer performance and features only found in top end devices not too long ago. Given your statements, I guess you would be flabbergasted if I you knew the percentage in the Siglent sales statistics which are enterprise purchases these days…
maybe would you like to share some informations about top companies which buy siglent products for their R&D?
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I'm sure there will be plenty of great features but the shared control |O
I’m sorry that the multiplexed controls disappoint you.
But this is just following the LeCroy concept. Vertical controls are not only for the input channels 1-4, but also for the other buttons around: Math, Ref and Digital. The currently selected (and backlit) button indicates the what is controlled (scale and position). For instance, in Math mode you can also control the vertical scale and reference position of the FFT with it.
For selecting a math or reference channel, just touch the trace on the screen or the corresponding info tab at the bottom.
This is also how vertical zoom works. For the selected channel, the vertical controls will work for either the main or zoom window, depending on which one is selected by either pushing the horizontal control or just a simple touch on the corresponding screen area (selection will be indicated by a dashed frame around it). In the zoom window, the vertical gain can be increased and the trace position shifted.
I think it is a nice concept once you’ve gotten used to it.
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For those who are looking for a scope with reasonable performance that does not slow down to snail pace and get unresponsive as soon as it has something a little more demanding to do, just have a look at the attached video.
Please note that this is a screen recording from the web interface which is limited to less than 10 frames per second. The SDS2000X+ display is both faster and significantly smoother, but I still think you can get a first impression out of the video.
Since Siglent scopes always make use of their full memory and analog record length was just 20Mpts, we can enter history anytime to see the past (nine in this case) acquisitions:
[attachimg=2 width=800]
SDS2354+_Performance_Demo_I2C_History
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10Bit Acquisition mode and vertical Zoom:
This is the genuine 8bit acquisition which yields 30 LSB per vertical division. To illustrate this, the main window has a fine adjusted gain of 300mV/div and the zoom window is set to 10mV/div (30x zoom).
In dots display mode, we can see exactly one sample per division as expected:
[attachimg=2 width=800]
SDS2354X+_30xZoom_8bit
Plese note the tiny black rectangle in the gray shaded main window – this is the frame for the zoom window.
In 10bits mode, we expect 4 samples per division, corresponding to 120 LSB per division in the main window:
[attachimg=1 width=800]
SDS2354X+_30xZoom_10bit
As stated before, bandwidth is limited to 100MHz in 10bit mode.
This is the actual frequency response up to 1GHz:
[attachimg=3 width=800]
SDS2354Xplus 2GSa 10bit 1GHz
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Given your statements, I guess you would be flabbergasted if I you knew the percentage in the Siglent sales statistics which are enterprise purchases these days…
You have to split that per type of equipment. I have no problem recommending the simpler Siglent gear (if it has mature firmware) to customers but oscilloscopes... no. There is just no way to smooth over / explain the limitations on the oscilloscopes I outlined earlier. The people I deal with have used other equipment so they know how an oscilloscope is supposed to work.
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Pulse response and bandwidth for optional 500MHz in interleaved channel mode
The 500MHz option is available for all the ones who would like to measure that high occasionally, but don’t need it on all channels at the same time.
Here is the frequency response:
[attachimg=2 width=800]
SDS2354Xplus 2GSa 8bit 1GHz
As you can see, my pre-production sample does a fairly decent job:
-1.0dB @ 430MHz
-1.7dB @ 500MHz
-3.0dB @ 570MHz
Here’s the pulse response to a 60MHz squarewave with fast edges:
[attachimg=1 width=800]
SDS2354X+_2GSa_Pulse_60MHz_D
In this screenshot, we can spot a number of nice features:
• The 7-digit frequency counter (how many other 2000 series DSOs have that?) right below the Siglent logo. The actual signal frequency has been measured as 59.9999459MHz, so the deviation is only 0.265ppm. Not bad for a DSO in this class.
• A nice display with working intensity grading
• Stable measurements (except overshoot), indicated by low standard deviation in the statistics.
• Optional histograms for the measurement statistics that can be enlarged for further analysis if so desired.
• Rise time measurement of ~720ps average, which would hint on a bandwidth just below 500MHz for an input channel with Gaussian filter shape, but that’s certainly not a valid method to determine the bandwidth of a DSO. We already know it’s actually 570MHz.
Finally let’s see the frequency domain of that signal:
[attachimg=3 width=800]
SDS2354X+_2GSa_Pulse_60MHz_FFT
We can see that the harmonics of the signal extend well beyond 1GHz and it is not a perfect rectangle, as the even harmonics are still quite strong.
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Given your statements, I guess you would be flabbergasted if I you knew the percentage in the Siglent sales statistics which are enterprise purchases these days…
You have to split that per type of equipment.
And what makes you think I haven't done that?
Of course I was talking about oscilloscopes exclusively here.
Apart from genuine Siglent, what do you think who the primary customers for Teledyne Test Tools are? Guess what the T3DSO1000 and T3DSO2000 series is?
When I was talking to application engineers from LeCroy, no one has told me that Siglent DSOs don't work as expected. But no wonder, as LeCroy might have more options to control the record length and/or sample rate, but essentially follows the same principle otherwise. Likewise, Pico Technology have decades of experience, are the world market leader in USB instruments and their PicoScopes work exactly this way.
I have no problem recommending the simpler Siglent gear (if it has mature firmware) to customers but oscilloscopes... no. There is just no way to smooth over / explain the limitations on the oscilloscopes I outlined earlier. The people I deal with have used other equipment so they know how an oscilloscope is supposed to work.
I'm sorry to hear that, but then again, I do not recommend certain instruments either – with the tiny difference that I could not be bothered (and don't have the time) to post my complaints in just about every thread about brands and products that I neither like nor use.
The topic has been discussed ad nauseam already and no one else has been so fanatic about this. A relevant and comprehensive contribution has been made here in reply #30:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1220-siglent-sds5000x-1ghz-oscilloscope-review/msg2489091/#msg2489091 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1220-siglent-sds5000x-1ghz-oscilloscope-review/msg2489091/#msg2489091)
The memory selection on the Siglent DSOs allows to intentionally lower the sample rate – only at slower timebase settings of course, because the minimum is 20kpts in interleaved mode on the SDS2000X+. The main purpose of this is to control the maximum number of segments for history and sequence recording (FFT has its own length selection by now).
Of course, offering everything at once and having it all configurable to meet everyone’s taste and habits would be the ultimate solution (if only to see what comes next) – provided it does not require a major redesign of the acquisition engine.
I might eventually discuss this topic with fellow consultants/testers as well as Siglent R&D. If it turns out that it would be easy to implement without risks, then it could become a (low priority) request.
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XY-Mode
It is often said that DSOs suck at XY – and while they cannot compete with their analog grandparents indeed, we can still get decent performance even from a DSO nowadays.
I would like to show how far Siglent got with this – you can expect a similar performance on all current instruments based on the new platform (SDS1000X-E, SDS2000X-E, SDS5000X).
Here’s a screenshot, showing an 8QAM I/Q signal with rather weird settings, providing a rather complex rotating figure. Thanks to the intensity grading we almost get something like a smeared rotating constellation diagram :)
[attachimg=2 width=800]
SDS2354X+_XY_1Mpts_IQ_8QAM_1Hz_1MS
Please note that the record length is 1Mpts in this example and the acquisition length is 1ms, hence signals down to 1kHz can be properly displayed.
To demonstrate the performance, I had to use an old camera since the limited framerate of the web interface would give a false impression of the performance. Please see the attached video for a demo.
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The memory selection on the Siglent DSOs allows to intentionally lower the sample rate – only at slower timebase settings of course, because the minimum is 20kpts in interleaved mode on the SDS2000X+. The main purpose of this is to control the maximum number of segments for history and sequence recording (FFT has its own length selection by now).
But what is the purpose of history mode? I've seen this on a Yokogawa oscilloscope and R&S has it as well but I don't really see a particular use for having a history. If you want to acquire segments then you might as well turn on segmented recording.
Of course, offering everything at once and having it all configurable to meet everyone’s taste and habits would be the ultimate solution
Which is why the A-brands (except for Keysight which always uses maximum memory) all have a selection to set the memory to a fixed length. And I'm not writing this because I want to bash Siglent; I want Siglent to become better at making oscilloscopes in order to get a more competitive oscilloscope market. BTW Picoscope may be different but they are only serving a niche market (which they dominate) with specific requirements.
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Siglents product page (in Chinese, use Google translate) including pricing:
https://www.siglent.com/products-overview/sds2000xp/#navs (https://www.siglent.com/products-overview/sds2000xp/#navs)
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But what is the purpose of history mode? I've seen this on a Yokogawa oscilloscope and R&S has it as well but I don't really see a particular use for having a history. If you want to acquire segments then you might as well turn on segmented recording.
Every serious DSO has history mode – not only Yokogawa and R&S, but of course also Keysight and LeCroy, the latter even have WaveScan, a very powerful tool that can do much more than a simple search.
Segmented recording is a special mode for optimizing memory usage and minimizing blind time for events with irregular occurrence. It is set up on purpose and has no real time screen update.
History is running in the background just in case we need it. This is the big advantage: it is always there, we can never forget to turn it on and we need not plan anything in advance. There can be many situations where we might want have a look at previous acquisitions again.
During a debugging process we might spot some unexpected event, and by the time we hit the stop button the screen has already been overwritten by new acquisitions. We might even have an idea how to trigger this particular event, but would have to set that trigger (and hope that it actually works) and then wait until the same thing happens again (maybe for a long time, especially when we have the wrong trigger). With history we can look at that very event immediately. We can try various search conditions or just find the event visually during playback or even single stepping (which is of course not an option if the history contains thousands of frames).
History can replace sequence recording for regular events or in general, whenever minimum blind time is not paramount. Infrequent serial messages would be an example for this. We choose the record length so that we always catch a command/response pair (assuming that they are closely spaced) and can use zoom if we really want to look at some details, in short: just work as usual. But we can also stop the acquisition anytime by entering the history, where we can closely inspect not only the current record, but also all the command/response pairs from the past.
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Hello,
how many bits is a point in SDS2000X Plus and SDS5000X if you save to a file?
And if you use 10 bit on SDS2000X Plus does it change the memory size in points?
Best regards
egonotto
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how many bits is a point in SDS2000X Plus and SDS5000X if you save to a file?
And if you use 10 bit on SDS2000X Plus does it change the memory size in points?
SDS5000X and SDS2000X+ save 8bit data. Full scale on the sreen is equivalent to 240 LSB.
SDS2000X+ in 10bit mode saves 16bit data, but of course only 10 bits resolution. Full scale on the sreen is equivalent to 960 LSB.
The memory depth in points does not change when you toggle between 8 and 10 bit acquisition as long as the record does not use the max. memory depth. The binary file size doubles in 10bit mode, CSV data size does not change of course.
The maximum memory is halved in 10bit mode. So with all channels active, you get a max. record length of normally 100Mpts but only 50Mpts in 10bit mode. In this case the record length would change accordingly when you toggle 10bit mode.
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Hello,
thanks Performa01.
If you use hi res mod (Eres) is than a point more than 8 bits?
And if yes, is max memory than smaller?
And if you use the Digital Channels affected this the memory size of the analog channels?
Best regards
egonotto
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If you use hi res mod (Eres) is than a point more than 8 bits?
And if yes, is max memory than smaller?
And if you use the Digital Channels affected this the memory size of the analog channels?
ERES is not an acquisition mode anymore, but a math function (LeCroy send their regards!).
This has many advantages. You still have the original data available and filter just the channel(s) where you really need it, even with different settings, without compromising the other channels. Furthermore you can apply ERES to a math expression.
EDIT: Ah, and yes, the ERES math trace has the higher resolution of course.
Because of this, the memory doesn't get smaller as it has been the case with ERES as acquisition mode. SDS5000X for instance is limited to 25Mpts per channel pair in ERES acquisition mode.
Analog memory depth is not affected by activation of the digital channels. You still have 200Mpts per channel pair available.
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Hello,
thanks Performa01.
Can it be, that the SDS5000X has 1GB of memory overall?
Best regards
egonotto
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Hi Egonotto,
this might be true for the acquisition memory, as this would be 866MB for the analog channels (including history) plus (at least!) 125MB for the digital channels, that makes a total of 991MB, hence close to 1GB.
But apart from that the scope needs a lot of memory for the operating system and all the processing - measurements, math, serial decoders, mask editor, power analysis, web server, display management...
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Hi Performa01,
perhaps the memory for the processor is a separate memory.
Best regards
egonotto
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But what is the purpose of history mode? I've seen this on a Yokogawa oscilloscope and R&S has it as well but I don't really see a particular use for having a history. If you want to acquire segments then you might as well turn on segmented recording.
Every serious DSO has history mode – not only Yokogawa and R&S, but of course also Keysight and LeCroy, the latter even have WaveScan, a very powerful tool that can do much more than a simple search.
Segmented recording is a special mode for optimizing memory usage and minimizing blind time for events with irregular occurrence. It is set up on purpose and has no real time screen update.
No. The HP/Agilent/Keysight scopes I have owned & used so far didn't have history mode. By default they use full memory. And it isn't true segmented mode is purely intended to offer fast acquisition of repeating events. For that deep memory is equally useful because you won't save much memory anyway. Some DSOs even have a fast & slow segmented recording mode. In slow mode the progress is shown on screen. In fast mode you don't see anything until the number of segments if captured or press 'stop'.
History can replace sequence recording for regular events or in general, whenever minimum blind time is not paramount. Infrequent serial messages would be an example for this. We choose the record length so that we always catch a command/response pair (assuming that they are closely spaced) and can use zoom if we really want to look at some details, in short: just work as usual. But we can also stop the acquisition anytime by entering the history, where we can closely inspect not only the current record, but also all the command/response pairs from the past.
But do you ever use history mode? Does anyone else feel it is important? IMHO history mode is pretty much useless to look back at 'accidental' signals. In most cases you'll have so many triggers per second that by the time you press the 'stop' button the signal is gone from the buffer anyway. And how to make sure that what you look at is related to a known circumstance?
When I use segmented recording I want the set of acquisitions to be related to a specific measurement condition. I rarely use segmented recording though; deep memory is much easier. Just scroll left/right. I have this with logic analysers too. The first logic analyser I owned had 1kpts per channel. Capturing specific events was very hard because it required setting up very specific triggers. My second logic analyser had (IIRC) 128kpts per channel and an even more advanced trigger system. However I used advanced triggering less. My current logic analyser has 32Mpts and with that amount of memory it doesn't even matter much when to trigger. Sometime I just start it manually because I know it will capture an entire cycle anyway (for example data to a TFT display). After that I can analyse the signals and the best thing is that all the data is related to the same circumstance. So if I see something weird at one point, I can look at the data preceding the event because it is all there (100% related to each other). I use a DSO in the same way.
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I never claimed that long memory isn’t useful, quite the contrary.
I was talking about irregular events, but should have better said low duty cycle events, because it actually does not matter if the spacing is constant or not.
In these cases, deep memory is not enough (and inconvenient) and segmented memory is all the more important for DSOs with a lack of deep memory, like the current Keysight midrange instruments.
On a DSO with deep memory and 90000 history entries, you have all the time in this world to stop and look back.
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Now you are contradicting yourself because your DSO with history has a small amount of memory depth on purpose and enables a crutch to make up for small memory by default. That just doesn't make sense. And looking back requires a lot more button pushes and it likely isn't possible to put the recordings side-by-side horizontally so you can scroll through a contiguous signal. Having one big segment and scrolling left/right is much easier to work with. Besides that the history mode doesn't work if the trigger condition is not met for the signal so you will lose whatever interesting things are happening before or after the trigger event if it happens to be just outside the screen.
But this discussion is going in circles. The bottom line is that Siglent really should add fixed memory length settings instead of always using automatic memory length which is just enough for the screen width. This should be at the top of the list with items to fix because without it they are behind on the competition. There is no working-around that.
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Hello Performa01,
Thank you for the explanations.
It will be my main scope and I have a MSO5000 as a second scope when I have to work at home who does not have shared control.
I need to see by myself if it is not so disturbing. I will wait a review to see a side by side comparison between the SDS2354X Plus and the SDS5034X.
The price difference between these two will be decisive ;D
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Hi,
Reading this thread, I don´t see any advantages against I have a MSO5000
except the 50Ohm inputs on the hardware side.
Apart from this, I don´t like the "A-Brands" discussions every time a new model from rigol or siglent comes up.
Siglent and rigol makes decent scopes for hobbyists affordable, not less or more.
We all should keep this in mind, when moaning/judging about some supposed quirks.
If we could spend for example 2000 bucks, what do we get from siglent, rigol, r&s, tektronix, lecroy, keysight, this is the right question.
And this is the discussion framework within which we should move.
At company, I work with a waverunner 9054 from lecroy everyday since we got it - At home there is my MSO5 from rigol waiting.
It´s no comparison at all, but this is "natural" .
Nevertheless I could also work with it.
At home.
Doing hobbyist things.
If I need/want to do professional things, I buy a professional scope.
That´s all.
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Hello tautech,
I look to replace in some time my MSO2072A and this new SDS2000X Plus would fit well.
Anyway, what about noise floor of this new scope ?
What aquisition modes are available too ?
Does 10 bits mode improve FFT dynamic range ?
I would really appreciate if you are able to take some measurements about this. Regards.
Frex
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Hello tautech,
I look to replace in some time my MSO2072A and this new SDS2000X Plus would fit well.
Anyway, what about noise floor of this new scope ?
What aquisition modes are available too ?
Does 10 bits mode improve FFT dynamic range ?
I would really appreciate if you are able to take some measurements about this. Regards.
Frex
Frex, we'll have to wait some 6 weeks before public release unless Performa01 can share with us these details.
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@Performa01: Does Siglent have any plans to get rid of the automatic memory depth setting? For me the automatic memory depth adjustment is a total productivity killer. It annoyed the hell out of me during the short time I had the SDS2000.
The short answer is no, sorry.
The zoom window supports math, automatic and cursor measurements as well as mask test.
The maximal record length can be limited in order to reduce the sample rate and/or get more history segments.
Any acquisition strategy that would hide a single sample from instant view would annoy the hell out of me. Thankfully, Siglent will continue to follow PicoTech and LeCroy in this regard.
We get a lot of feedback from professional Siglent users and I think it's most indicative that not one has ever questioned this acquisition strategy.
And how about full memory decoding? It is about time Siglent addresses this too.
This is a (mis)leading question.
:clap:
Strong Yes!
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And how about full memory decoding? It is about time Siglent addresses this too.
This is a (mis)leading question. While there are certain (protocol dependent) limits for the total number of table entries (bytes, words, double words, packets) which in turn obviously limits the maximum record length that can be fully decoded (at least if oversampling is low), not many apart from you would consider the following screenshot with a total of 45 decoded I2C messages as not full memory decoding:
But it still needs the zoom crutch. Everyone can walk faster without a crutch. Also decoding only what is on screen gives you the problem that it is nearly impossible to correlate messages which may be in different parts of the acquisition memory. Get a Keysight or R&S scope on your bench and see how easy it is to be able to go through the entire record with timestamps relative to each packet. Same for the automatic memory length. For the millionth time: limiting the memory size to the visible screen only is a serious productivity limitation. There is no arguing around that other than using yet another crutch (going back & forth between time/div settings). Everyone can walk faster without a crutch.
Remember I used to own an SDS2000 and the automatic memory selection annoyed the hell out of me. And no, automatic memory length is not a typical Lecroy feature. The Wavepro 7200A I have allows to select between automatic and fixed memory length just like any other oscilloscope I have. Except for the SDS2000 I don't recall having owned any other DSO which did not allow to select a fixed memory length.
Reasoning that none of the customers has asked for it is more indicative of the kind of customers Siglent has than automatic memory selection should be standard. Power users like me that need to have an oscilloscope which works efficiently will ask for it (or silently just don't buy the oscilloscopes from Siglent). Siglent has come a long way in the past few years and now they really have to start addressing the productivity issues (at least on the higher end models) in order to really compete with the A-brands.
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Anyway, what about noise floor of this new scope ?
It's in line with other Siglent X-series DSOs.
Here are some measurements with 1Mpts, 2GSa/s (resulting measurement bandwidth is 2kHz ~ 1GHz) at 1mV/div:
Full bandwidth (570MHz): 80µV RMS
Bandwidth limit 200MHz: 54µV RMS
Bandwidth limit 20MHz: 30µV RMS
As expected, 10 Bit Mode does not change much at high input sensitivities, because the noise from the analog frontend is dominating:
Full bandwidth (100MHz): 36µV RMS
Bandwidth limit 20MHz: 27µV RMS
See attached screenshots.
What aquisition modes are available too ?
Only Normal (aka Sample) and Peak Detect.
Average and ERES are now implemented as math functions. I'll post some demonstrations of ERES later.
Does 10 bits mode improve FFT dynamic range ?
No, It cannot. 10bit mode is accomplished by oversampling, taking advantage on the highly linear ADC.
FFT implicitely does something similar and vastly increases the dynamic range by itself, so 10bit mode is no benefit here.
Here's an example of a 30MHz carrier, 5% amplitude modulated at 100kHz. Visible (and spurious free!) dynamic range is 80dB and the peak table confirms that it is fully operational. That's better than many old swept SA boat anchors out there...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=894586;image)
SDS2354X+_30MHz_3dBm_AM100kHz_5%
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ERES
ERES means enhanced resolution and enhancement is available from 0.5 bits to 3 bits in 0.5 bit steps. You don't specify the vertical resolution with this, but the (theoretical) enhancment of the ENOB (Effective Number Of Bits). The vertical resolution is twice as high, so 3.0 bits enhancements get you 6 bits additional vertical resolution, hence a total of 14 bits.
Look at the screenshot below:
[attachimg=1 width=800]
SDS2354X+_Math_ERES2_8bit
This shows a zoomed view of the input signal (1kHz sinewave) which shows exactly one sample per division at a 16mV/div scale. So the LSB of the original sample data is equivalent to 16mV.
The ERES math trace with 2.0 bits enhancement in the zoom window shows two samples per division at a 2mV/div scale, hence one LSB is now only 1mV. This is a 16 times improvement, equivalent to 4 bits.
Effectively the math trace shows the signal with 12bit resolution.
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ERES 2
The noise reduction effect of ERES.
The following experiment uses the base noise at 100mV/div, where the contribution from the analog frontend is almost negligible.
At 100mV/div, one LSB is equivalent to 3.33mV. The zoom window at 5mV/div shows the granular +/-1 LSB noise of the input signal as +/-0.66 div (green trace).
The orange ERES math trace is scaled at 5mV/div, so it is directly comparable to the input signal. The granular noise after 1.0 bits of resolution enhancement is correspondingly lower:
[attachimg=1 width=800]
SDS2354X+_Noise_50_100mV_ERES_1bit
The following screenshots show the same view, but with 2.0 and 3.0 bits of resolution enhancement:
[attachimg=2 width=800]
SDS2354X+_Noise_50_100mV_ERES_2bit
[attachimg=3 width=800]
SDS2354X+_Noise_50_100mV_ERES_3bit
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Average
Average is another function that has been changed from an acquisition mode to a math function. One of the advantages is that we can now combine ERES and Average for the same signal. We can also use the new 10 bit acquisition mode which will theoretical increase the ENOB by 1.0 bits.
As a demonstration I’ve set up a 883µV RMS sine signal buried under a 5mV RMS noise carpet and 10 bit acquisition mode has been used. Triggering on the weak signal is accomplished over the sync output of the signal generator.
In the screenshot below we can see that the working intensity grading in this scope already reveals that there is a signal hidden under the noise. The math trace shows the input signal with 1024 times averaging, which makes it almost noise free, especially when considering the low signal level and the 1mV/div scale.
Automatic measurements show the properties of the original signal with a maximum amplitude of ~25mVpp and only ~2.33mV RMS (mean statistics value) – this is because the noise signal was set for 500MHz bandwidth, but the actual input bandwidth is only 100MHz in 10 bit mode, which results in a theoretical level of 2.24mV RMS.
The math trace measures the recovered sinewave as 2.78mVpp which is a bit too high because of the remaining noise (should actually be 2.5mVpp). Yet the RMS measurement is very accurate at 888µV (should be 883µV).
[attachimg=1 width=800]
SDS2354X+_Noise_5mV_sine_883uV_10bit_IG
Since the intensity grading already revealed that there is a sinewave hidden under the noise, color grading shows this even better:
[attachimg=2 width=800]
SDS2354X+_Noise_5mV_sine_883uV_10bit_CG
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Hi Performa01,
If I understand this correctly the new 10 bit acquisition mode is accomplished in software. Do you expect this to become available in other(high-end) models as well?
Eric
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Hi Eric,
the SDS2000X Plus is the first Siglent DSO that implements 16 bit data processing and display interface, which is the prerequisite for features like vertical zoom and opens up further opportunities, like the new HR (10 bit) acquisition mode.
The 16 bit data has been on the todo list for the SDS5000X right from the start and will be ported from the SDS2000X Plus ptototype implementation as soon as it is mature (which has already been the case for quite a while now from my point of view).
Contrary to my initial reservations, the 10 bit mode has proven to be quite useful (because of the excellent DNL of the ADC), so I expect it to be added to the SDS5000X and future DSOs in and above the 2000X class.
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HR (10bit) + ERES
The good performance of the ADC in this DSO led me to trying something crazy: why not combine the 10bit HR acquisition mode with ERES 3.0, for a total of 16 bits of resolution?
[attachimg=1 width=800]
SDS2354X+_Math_ERES3_10bit_St
You can see the original trace in the upper window at a vertical gain of 960mV/div. Because in 10bit HR mode we get exactly 120LSB per division and one LSB is already reduced to 8mV, which is just a quarter of what it would be in 8bit mode.
In the zoom window at a vertical scale of 8mV/div we can see exactly one green dot per division, just as expected.
But now look at the orange math trace. Here the sensitivity is set to 500µV/div and we see exactly 4 dots per division, which is equivalent to 125µV for one LSB.
Look how evenly spaced the orange dots are. The total resolution is 16 bits and linearity looks still excellent.
Of course, the total bandwidth has dropped to just 14MHz now.
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I am tempted to get the Rigol MSO5074, hope Siglent will release this guy soon :)
Is the bandwidth software unlockable ?
How is the screen's resolution? Similar to R&S quality? This is the only thing which bother's me a bit about Rigol.
Thanks!
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I am tempted to get the Rigol MSO5074, hope Siglent will release this guy soon :)
In just a few weeks are the hints I have.
Is the bandwidth software unlockable ?
There will be BW upgrade options from what we can see on the Chinese datasheet.
And welcome to the forum.
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Thank you so much for an extremely quick reply.
I edited my very first post to ask about the screen's quality before I noticed you already replied. This forum community is just awesome!
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How is the screen's resolution?
1024x600 10.1" TFT-LCD
Similar to R&S quality?
Siglent's displays have always used a matt toughened glass so don't have the issues with mirroring the surrounding environment or lighting like some R&S models do.
Apparently some R&S owners have resorted to using a screen overlay to address the display reflections but that's plastic and with use might need replacing and for a touch display that might get lots of use this becomes an additional cost of ownership.
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Apparently some R&S owners have resorted to using a screen overlay to address the display reflections but that's plastic and with use might need replacing and for a touch display that might get lots of use this becomes an additional cost of ownership.
Now you are being overly dramatic. From my own experience with several 'glossy' touch screen scopes the reflections are not an issue at all. Your eyes will focus on the display and by doing so get rid of the reflections. It is basic optics really.
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Matte screens can fuzz out the reflection of a light source situated right behind you, but by the same token, they gather light from sources that aren't right behind you and fuzz it into your display. Pick your poison.
Note that cell phone displays tend to be glossy to let you deal better with the reflection of the sun (!). If the sun is right behind you, its' reflection in your phone screen is a huge problem, if the sun isn't right behind you, its' reflection is a small problem. If you made the screen matte, the sun's reflection would always be a medium problem. Since it's usually possible to tilt your phone screen or change your orientation to pick the small problem over the huge problem, {small,huge} wins over {medium,medium}, and that's why smartphone screens tend to be glossy, because under those circumstances glossy provides better reflection control.
Of course, if the boss man had me chained to a desk across from a window, I'd want a matte screen :)
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Noteworthy and come release only 100, 200 and 350 MHz models have been made available to western markets. :(
Edits with models and pricing made to the OP.
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Noteworthy and come release only 100, 200 and 300 MHz models have been made available to western markets. :(
To keep it below the bandwiths of the SDS5000 series, I guess..
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Noteworthy and come release only 100, 200 and 300 MHz models have been made available to western markets. :(
Edits with models and pricing made to the OP.
100, 200 and 350MHz and 350MHz model have 500MHz option.
Option SDS2000XP-4PW50 is availablein western markets and also english version datasheet tell it.
It is for SDS2354XPlus for upgrade it to 500MHz.*)
*)
as all know 1GSa/s fnyquist is 500MHz, so it is "useless" for 1GSa/s operation using rt sampling and Sinc, but afaik it can run 2GSa/s with 2 channels simultaneously and in this case 500MHz is ok with Nyquist and Sinc)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gl1O8YHUso (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gl1O8YHUso)
https://www.batronix.com/versand/oszilloskope/Siglent-SDS2000X-plus.html (https://www.batronix.com/versand/oszilloskope/Siglent-SDS2000X-plus.html)
Rigol´s mso5000 is getting into trouble...
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So who is going to research if the hardware is the same and 100Mhz = 500Mhz. That would be a Rigol killer... for sure..
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds2000xplus-launched/msg2874388/#msg2874388 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds2000xplus-launched/msg2874388/#msg2874388)
Comparing to the mso5000....
50Ohm Inputs, probe-sensing, external trigger, bode plot integrated, bigger 10.1" screen....price for the 100Mhz version 1200€ (excl. VAT)....MSO5104 : 1100...
Makes me nervous…
What hacking to 500Mhz concerns:
Only the 350Mhz versions seems to be upgradable to 500 Mhz, so I think there will be a difference in hardware.
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So who is going to research if the hardware is the same and 100Mhz = 500Mhz. That would be a Rigol killer... for sure..
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds2000xplus-launched/msg2874388/#msg2874388 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds2000xplus-launched/msg2874388/#msg2874388)
Comparing to the mso5000....
50Ohm Inputs, probe-sensing, external trigger, bode plot integrated, bigger 10.1" screen....price for the 100Mhz version 1200€ (excl. VAT)....MSO5104 : 1100...
Makes me nervous…
What hacking to 500Mhz concerns:
Only the 350Mhz versions seems to be upgradable to 500 Mhz, so I think there will be a difference in hardware.
I think it will be an interesting battle! Of course you should compare with 5074 since it's the lowest we can get.
Regarding the HW difference: maybe it's only on the factory calib. How do they distinguish a 350 (upgraded from 100) and a 350 bought in the shop, in HW?
The ones that didn't reach the aprox 570 MHz BW, are rated 100 MHz models?
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For hobbyists I think they'd take the 4 channel rigol over the 4 channel siglent. 40% price difference. They should have gone the rigol route and just software locked the channels.
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I think it is simple.. the hardware is the same on all models.
I think it is just marketing:
1. They don't want the 2000x plus to step on the 5000x but they also don't want to loose sales to Rigol.
2. They don't want to be in the upgrade business.. so this is probably a one off.. till a 500 comes out.
3. They are still working out software issues at 500mhz but feel confident the hardware can do it.
It is also possible (like with the 5000x) that initial hardware has some issues.. and they sort them into bandwidth buckets depending on how pronounced it is. This probably means that the 100Mhz can still do 450Mhz just fine if it does not make the cut.. If this is the case it will improve quickly as they work on production issues..
My 2 C's
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For hobbyists I think they'd take the 4 channel rigol over the 4 channel siglent. 40% price difference. They should have gone the rigol route and just software locked the channels.
I think another reason the 100Mhz can be "upgraded" to 500Mhz... to cash in on the hobby market.. and beat out Rigol.
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Canadian pricing here:
https://www.transcat.ca/brand/siglent-store/oscilloscope (https://www.transcat.ca/brand/siglent-store/oscilloscope)
https://www.transcat.ca/brand/siglent-store/oscilloscope/siglent-sds2104x-plus-100mhz-4ch-digital-oscilloscope (https://www.transcat.ca/brand/siglent-store/oscilloscope/siglent-sds2104x-plus-100mhz-4ch-digital-oscilloscope) ($1447 USD)
Datasheet: https://www.transcat.ca/media/pdf/siglent-SDS2000X-Plus-Datasheet.pdf (https://www.transcat.ca/media/pdf/siglent-SDS2000X-Plus-Datasheet.pdf)
Rigol is $999 or 909 for 2 probes.
So again our prices are higher than the Euro prices (1200 EUR = $1336 USD).
Interleaved, 2Gs/s with 2 channels, 1GS/s with 4 channels on. Which means a realistic bandwidth of ~400MHz for all four channels. Still not bad.
If you have the budget and want low noise (80uV rms noise at 500MHz), its good value, assuming it can be hacked.
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Rigols´benefits are the 8GS/s and the waste amount of memory or/and math functions, also using 4 math functions at the same time, also the 2 channel wavegenerator, also waste amount of trigger functions.
I´m waiting for the next fw update, should be come end of this month.
If it´s too disappointing, I´ll have a look to the 2000 plus...
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I think it is simple.. the hardware is the same on all models.
I think it is just marketing:
1. They don't want the 2000x plus to step on the 5000x but they also don't want to loose sales to Rigol.
2. They don't want to be in the upgrade business.. so this is probably a one off.. till a 500 comes out.
3. They are still working out software issues at 500mhz but feel confident the hardware can do it.
It is also possible (like with the 5000x) that initial hardware has some issues.. and they sort them into bandwidth buckets depending on how pronounced it is. This probably means that the 100Mhz can still do 450Mhz just fine if it does not make the cut.. If this is the case it will improve quickly as they work on production issues..
My 2 C's
I spoke too soon.. looking at the data sheet gives us another clue.. You can upgrade up from any speed.. 100 to 200. 200 to 350 and 350 to 500mhz. No mention of any restrictions. There is actually a code to go from 100 to 350 for 2 channel scopes.
Did they forget to mention you can't get more than one upgrade.. or is it fine..
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Bandwidth upgrade, 350 to 500 MHz, 4 channel models
$1,399.00
https://siglentna.com/product/bandwidth-upgrade-350-to-500-mhz-4-channel-models-2/
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Bandwidth upgrade, 350 to 500 MHz, 4 channel models
$1,399.00
https://siglentna.com/product/bandwidth-upgrade-350-to-500-mhz-4-channel-models-2/
Yes but in comes with this limitation:
SDS2000XP-4BW05 Upgrade SDS2354X Plus bandwidth to 500 MHz (Only two channels)
Study reply #21 earlier in this thread.
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Finally after years of waiting someone came out with a scope that actually has the features I want at a price I can afford. The Rigol MSO5000 looked amazing but it's dim screen was a deal breaker. I heard this is fixed... can anyone confirm this?
I'm wanting a 100MHz, 4 Channel touchscreen scope. Between this new Siglent and the Rigol MSO5000 does anyone know what the key differences are? If it was your $1,400 which one would you buy? That is like 3 weeks of pay for me, so I need to get this right on the first purchase!
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Finally after years of waiting someone came out with a scope that actually has the features I want at a price I can afford. The Rigol MSO5000 looked amazing but it's dim screen was a deal breaker. I heard this is fixed... can anyone confirm this?
I'm wanting a 100MHz, 4 Channel touchscreen scope. Between this new Siglent and the Rigol MSO5000 does anyone know what the key differences are? If it was your $1,400 which one would you buy? That is like 3 weeks of pay for me, so I need to get this right on the first purchase!
Screen was never an issue for me and others. But without seeing it in person its hard to say if it works for you. It was improved.
If your budget is $1,500 then get this, if $1,000 then get the Rigol. I would also consider waiting until siglent has been hacked.
The main differences I can think of: Siglent has a lower noise front end, 10" vs 9" screen, 50 ohm. Rigol: hdmi, higher sample rate, dedicated channel knobs. But its going to depend on yourself to decide, don't get others to choose for you.
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Bandwidth upgrade, 350 to 500 MHz, 4 channel models
$1,399.00
https://siglentna.com/product/bandwidth-upgrade-350-to-500-mhz-4-channel-models-2/
Yes but in comes with this limitation:
SDS2000XP-4BW05 Upgrade SDS2354X Plus bandwidth to 500 MHz (Only two channels)
Study reply #21 earlier in this thread.
That is a sample rate restrictions.. 2Gs for 2 channels.. 1Gs for all 4..
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That is a sample rate restrictions.. 2Gs for 2 channels.. 1Gs for all 4..
So how well do you think 1Gs/s is going to work at 500 MHz?
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But what is the purpose of history mode? I've seen this on a Yokogawa oscilloscope and R&S has it as well but I don't really see a particular use for having a history. If you want to acquire segments then you might as well turn on segmented recording.
Every serious DSO has history mode – not only Yokogawa and R&S, but of course also Keysight and LeCroy, the latter even have WaveScan, a very powerful tool that can do much more than a simple search.
Segmented recording is a special mode for optimizing memory usage and minimizing blind time for events with irregular occurrence. It is set up on purpose and has no real time screen update.
No. The HP/Agilent/Keysight scopes I have owned & used so far didn't have history mode. By default they use full memory. And it isn't true segmented mode is purely intended to offer fast acquisition of repeating events. For that deep memory is equally useful because you won't save much memory anyway. Some DSOs even have a fast & slow segmented recording mode. In slow mode the progress is shown on screen. In fast mode you don't see anything until the number of segments if captured or press 'stop'.
"Some DSO,s even have...." yes Siglent have.
Fast segmented acquisition mode and slow mode. Fast mode user need set and select for use (sequence acq). Siglent slow segmented mode do not need turn on, it is always on and working background continuously (also it do not affect wfm/s speed and it do not record image frames, it record true acquisitions with full ADC data and time stamps to segment memory (aka history) fifo).
Is it so that word "History" turn your blind spot on or what... only drawback is that this Siglent slow speed segmented acquisition mode (= normal mode ) do not show segment number when it is capturing and user can not set number of segments before stop. It run current run state maximum amount of segments fifo continuously. (Perhaps Siglent can add this feature if there is enough demand. This is perhaps useful in cases where slow trigger events and want see segments on the screen before total is reached and handled. Other ways need look empty screen some minutes or hours and only see segment counter progress. )
Time ago one professional was looking new scope and I ask if he need also segmented memory or history function.
No, I do not need, also my old scope have not. I have never needed this kind of things.
Can I show you still what they are and some simple examples how to use these?
After one hour and tens of questions and some kind of explanations I ask if he still think these features are "no need" for his new scope. Answer was clear, I do not want any new scope without least this slow sequence feature.
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What is your point? By your own definition history mode isn't a replacement for slow segmented recording.
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So how well do you think 1Gs/s is going to work at 500 MHz?
The trouble that 1Gs/s does not work well even for 350 or for 200 MHz signals. I mean non-sinusoidal signals.
So while based on the period you may have the false impression that it will fit to the Nyquist limit but simply in many cases the spectral content of the signal can easily exceed that.
If that happens you have aliasing, and as a consequence what you see on the display is not what the signal looks like in reality.
(Having strong input filtering does not help much since that also removes spectral content thus distorts the signal).
E.g. how far would you go with a Square signal with 1Gs/s? Maybe somewhere 20-25 MHz? How fast signals modern MCUs or CPLDs/FPGAs can generate?
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So how well do you think 1Gs/s is going to work at 500 MHz?
The trouble that 1Gs/s does not work well even for 350 or for 200 MHz signals. I mean non-sinusoidal signals.
So while based on the period you may have the false impression that it will fit to the Nyquist limit but simply in many cases the spectral content of the signal can easily exceed that.
If that happens you have aliasing, and as a consequence what you see on the display is not what the signal looks like in reality.
(Having strong input filtering does not help much since that also removes spectral content thus distorts the signal).
You are going down the wrong path here. If you want to look at a signal with high frequency components you need an oscilloscope with enough bandwidth. Otherwise the anti-aliasing filter will chop off the higher frequency components and show what is left. But either way you always need to think about how the oscilloscope + probe will affect the signal you are looking at so you are not chasing ghosts.
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@Performa01: Does Siglent have any plans to get rid of the automatic memory depth setting? For me the automatic memory depth adjustment is a total productivity killer. It annoyed the hell out of me during the short time I had the SDS2000.
The short answer is no, sorry.
What engineers want to do is capture a record that represents a certain timespan. What is easier and feels more natural:
• Select the main timebase for the required total timespan and then adjust the zoom timebase for closer inspection of details
or
• Calculate the required memory depth from the required timespan and current sample rate, dig into the Acquisition menu to select the appropriate memory depth (provided it could be selected with similar fine granularity as the timebase) and then have to scroll back and forth through the buffer in order to inspect the entire acquisition
?
You (and Siglent) forgot one very simple use case: trigger on part of a signal and when that looks OK change the timebase to look at the rest of the signal (which was outside the screen during capture). I use this regulary during design verification. And this is much easier to achieve than you think: just set the oscilloscope to the maximum memory depth and leave it at that. I have my oscilloscopes set to the maximum memory depth 99.9% of the time. It is very handy to be able zoom out or pan left/right to examine the signal which was outside the screen. With Siglent's automatic memory depth I'd need to change the time base for each capture twice which is just time consuming and irritating. And why not have the maximum memory depth available? Otherwise the memory just sits there idle anyway.
First this "I have my oscilloscopes set to the maximum memory depth 99.9% of the time."
With 200Mpts and 2GSa/s one acquisition takes 100ms. Are you still sure you want keep oscilloscope nearly always, 99.9%, set for max memory depth. Why need zoom out, also you can use it (zoom out) only after stop in certain scopes.
If I need this kind of, I will turn zoom mode on and look whole memory and details at once and pan zoomed window where ever need. Most of scopes do not even loose vertical resolution using this method. It is just better to learn and adapt for use windowed zoom as "normal" mode. And more when also scopes start get more vertical height and resolution screens.
I do not want scope what have lot of visual blind time, hidden data, at runtime. If I do work what need long capture and still details I turn windowed zoom on. I remember well this time when example Owon did not even have windowed zoom, it have only full screen zoom alone. I have never used so frustrating system. And your working method is just like using full screen zoom, your runtime window is zoomed part of whole acquisition and you can not see rest at all in runtime, you need stop scope. And most captured trace out from screen and then full hassle to find some things there and always stop scope and pan and zoom.
Using scope where whole capture is always visible without overlapp and then zoom window for detail. You have always knowledge about whole capture and where your details window is related to whole trace and this all can do runtime and stopped.
Why need think all need do as always before have done. Human can learn new modes of operations. But also of course one may like tulips and one may like fish. And yes, I remember this first reaction after I have adapted this other system what you expolain... it was first some "shock" when I meet this Siglent principle. How hell I can do my works now, how I can find rest of traces... I zoom out and no...nothing... how this can use. Perhaps this is some kind of bug...or what hell. (There was also full memory available outside of screen in Siglent older models, also as in many many other scopes.
But after then I start use it and today I do not at all miss this method at all.. more like vice versa, I wonder why many still do these. But it need learn so that it is part of your muscle memory and thinking process. Just like changing from algebraic calculator to calculators rolls royces, HP RPN and after familiar, then do not want use any others anymore. But I know, there is peoples who can not or want not use or learn to use RPN.
Lets hope Siglent stay calm and continue this selected road.
What is captured need show and decode (except if decode max data amount is reached.) You many times ask why Siglent do not decode full memory. (It do but somehow you don not want accept it) But I can ask, why many scopes mostly do not display full currently used memory length at runtime... when they start make scopes what can display all what is captured and runtime, wit details.
With these user need stop scope for look this data. With Siglent whole data is visible and can look also runtime, including details, even when capture length is hundreds of megasamples.
Also always bacround working slow segmented acquisition is part of this total. If we always capture your full memory length there is no enought amount enough fast memory and processing power for history buffer. Of course data can cut and use only displayed part
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I think it will be an interesting battle! Of course you should compare with 5074 since it's the lowest we can get.
If the Siglent isn't hacable then it's going to be MUCH more expensive for equivalent features to a hacked Rigol.
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So how well do you think 1Gs/s is going to work at 500 MHz?
The trouble that 1Gs/s does not work well even for 350 or for 200 MHz signals. I mean non-sinusoidal signals.
So while based on the period you may have the false impression that it will fit to the Nyquist limit but simply in many cases the spectral content of the signal can easily exceed that.
If that happens you have aliasing, and as a consequence what you see on the display is not what the signal looks like in reality.
(Having strong input filtering does not help much since that also removes spectral content thus distorts the signal).
E.g. how far would you go with a Square signal with 1Gs/s? Maybe somewhere 20-25 MHz? How fast signals modern MCUs or CPLDs/FPGAs can generate?
Oscilloscopes BW is defined for sinewave.
100MHz non sinusoidal signal is not 100MHz sinusoidal signal and oscilloscope for 100MHz BW is not for this (depending need of accuracy and true signal).
This have been clear to all educated and or experienced oscilloscope users tens of years. As long as I can remember backwards. But still this kind of talk pops up frequently and continuously. Why. 100MHz what is not 100MHz and then 100MHz BW is not enough...
Who do not still know what is oscilloscope BW "definition" and about digital scopes who do not still understand what Nyquist and Shannon have told and also what HPs Chris Rehorn have told about digital scopes. Even with old time with analog scopes we know what is oscilloscope BW meaning. Still some wonder why 100MHz scope can not display 100MHz square waves.
1GSa/s is enough for 350MHz sinewave with normal fast Sinc interpolation when we are talking about normal use of scope with its accuracy class. It is some times not at all enough even 1Hz square wave, some times 1GHz BW is not enough for 1Hz square and we need talk what BW need if need measure real fast risetime with some good accuracy ... it may surprice.
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Lets hope Siglent stay calm and continue this selected road.
What is captured need show and decode (except if decode max data amount is reached.) You many times ask why Siglent do not decode full memory. (It do but somehow you don not want accept it) But I can ask, why many scopes mostly do not display full currently used memory length at runtime... when they start make scopes what can display all what is captured and runtime, wit details.
You and Performa4 keep missing the point that the way Siglent works makes operating the scope extremely cumbersome. I will never ever buy an oscilloscope which can't be set to use full memory all time. Same for decoding only what is on screen. And I'm 100% sure that once I show you two the benefits you will fully agree with me (just like your 'customer' initially thought segmented recording wasn't needed). It just takes looking outside the Siglent box.
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If you want to look at a signal with high frequency components you need an oscilloscope with enough bandwidth. Otherwise the anti-aliasing filter will chop off the higher frequency components and show what is left.
That anti-aliasing filter doesn't have too much room between 350 MHz and 500 MHz so it must be pretty good, right?
So what frequency square signal would you go max. with this setup?
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It is some times not at all enough even 1Hz square wave, some times 1GHz BW is not enough for 1Hz square and we need talk what BW need if need measure real fast risetime with some good accuracy
Sure, rise time determines the needed bandwidth but let's try to be a bit more practical here and assume that the user wants to check signals on MCUs, CPLDs/FPGAs so just everyday stuff.
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I think it will be an interesting battle! Of course you should compare with 5074 since it's the lowest we can get.
If the Siglent isn't hacable then it's going to be MUCH more expensive for equivalent features to a hacked Rigol.
ALL Siglent models are as "upgradeable" as Rigol's. If that wouldn't be the case then we should not compare them with a "hacked Rigol".
Nevertheless, it seems Siglent is pretty confident in its product given the price it chosed to it's starting model 2104X+ in comparison with the 5074.
I say that it will be "interesting times" because all will have plenty of factors to discuss once again in the bang/buck realm. You know pretty well the DS1004Z / 10004X-E war. Now, it will be the 5000 / 2000X+ war...
For Rigol's sake, it better release a good FW in the near future...
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If you want to look at a signal with high frequency components you need an oscilloscope with enough bandwidth. Otherwise the anti-aliasing filter will chop off the higher frequency components and show what is left.
That anti-aliasing filter doesn't have too much room between 350 MHz and 500 MHz so it must be pretty good, right?
So what frequency square signal would you go max. with this setup?
For a square wave (=average digital signal / clock) it is nice to have the fundamental + 2 harmonics (3x and 5x fundamental frequency) visible in order to asses things like signal levels. Fundamental + 1 harmonic is cutting it close. So a 350MHz oscilloscope should be usable on a 100MHz clock but from 70MHz and onwards you won't be able to make much of the shape. If you don't care much about the shape (for example only the frequency or time relation with another signal) then you can go all the way up to 350MHz.
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For Rigol's sake, it better release a good FW in the near future...
Definitely, otherwise I´ll change back to siglent.
Funny thing:
https://www.batronix.com/versand/oszilloskope/Siglent-SDS2104X-plus.html#yoReviews (https://www.batronix.com/versand/oszilloskope/Siglent-SDS2104X-plus.html#yoReviews)
Have a closer look to the display, the picture must be from the 5000 - or it´s magic having 2.5GSa/s on a 2GSa/s scope….
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OK, thank you.
One more question: What does the bandwidth upgrade really mean with these scopes (I mean specifically Siglent or Rigol)? Is anything changed in the analogue front end (I mean beyond the anyhow user settable limit(s) like the typical 20 MHz + some higher bandwidth limit) or something else as well (what)?
Or is it only limited only to what amount of zoom is allowed when looking at the signal?
Yet another words, what is gained with the hacking?
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Definitely, otherwise I´ll change back to siglent.
Changes come sometimes real quick - Set my rigol into eBay to check if the price is interesting for someone…..and it´s gone in an hour.. :o 8)
Siglent, I´m coming... ;)
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Changes come sometimes real quick - Set my rigol into eBay to check if the price is interesting for someone…..and it´s gone in an hour.. :o 8)
Siglent, I´m coming... ;)
:scared: Who will keep the MSO5000 threads ? ?
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I´ll do it as far it can go without having a 5000...
For me, the rigol 5000 is an excellent scope - But 50Ohm, Eres, 10.1" screen and probably lower input noise makes the decision…
For an 2104X plus.
Time will tell whether it´s hackable to 200Mhz or more.
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Hello,
This new scope seems interesting...
Anyway, there is no Bode plot function in the datasheet.
:-//
Frex
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Hi,
See Page 9 (https://www.batronix.com/files/Siglent/Oszilloskope/SDS2000X+/SDS2000X-Plus_Datasheet-EN.pdf)
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Oops!
I haven't seen it, thank you.
Now, it's time to wait for a complete Dave reviews.
Frex
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OK, thank you.
One more question: What does the bandwidth upgrade really mean with these scopes (I mean specifically Siglent or Rigol)? Is anything changed in the analogue front end (I mean beyond the anyhow user settable limit(s) like the typical 20 MHz + some higher bandwidth limit) or something else as well (what)?
Or is it only limited only to what amount of zoom is allowed when looking at the signal?
Yet another words, what is gained with the hacking?
Sometimes yes, another step in the x#s/div but mostly BW rolloff filter is lifted.
For 2kX+ we will have to wait to see what the fastest timebase setting will be.
For more understanding of how front end frequency is managed see EEVblog #1228 – Do Digital Scopes Have REAL Verniers?
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Somewhat strange price policy though. The SDS5034X (with "full" package) costs just a bit (~320€ or ~10%) more than the SDS2354X Plus.
I didn't even check all the details, but the higher sample rate (5GSa/s vs. 2GSa/s) alone would justify a higher price difference.
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That's not strange at all. That's precisely to make you choose the SDS5000X.
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For more understanding of how front end frequency is managed see EEVblog #1228 – Do Digital Scopes Have REAL Verniers?
I've rechecked that video (I'm certain that I've seen it already, so I've skipped occasionally) but that's about front end gain control (with AD8370) not about frequency control. So what front end frequency control does Siglent use?
Btw. I've checked with AD9954 comparator output (this is what I could find to have reasonable fast rise/fall times) and if 5th harmonic fits into the bandwidth that gives indeed meaningful signal shape (like nctnico wrote).
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This scope looks to be the step up level in the trifecta for me.
I have to have one of these. Hopefully I can sell my DS1054Z for a decent price.
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This scope looks to be the step up level in the trifecta for me.
I have to have one of these. Hopefully I can sell my DS1054Z for a decent price.
Given that the DS1054Z is already at the very bottom of the price range (Mariana Trench level) when bought new, there's almost no reason to sell it.
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Yep,
My MSO5074 goes for 899, so I must pay "only" appx 500 additional for the SDS2104X Plus...
God, the model names is killing me.... |O
What does the plus model have in common to the non plus, except the samplerate, to have only the "plus" in it´s name....
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What does the plus model have in common to the non plus, except the samplerate, to have only the "plus" in it´s name....
Honestly not very much.
Plus models offer quite a jump in capability over SDS2kX.
Plus have better sensitivity, bigger and touch display, inbuilt webserver, 50 vs 25 MHz AWG option, 2Mpts FFT, more memory, free decodes for the common protocols and all the new features in the new (like 5kX) UI.
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Lets hope Siglent stay calm and continue this selected road.
What is captured need show and decode (except if decode max data amount is reached.) You many times ask why Siglent do not decode full memory. (It do but somehow you don not want accept it) But I can ask, why many scopes mostly do not display full currently used memory length at runtime... when they start make scopes what can display all what is captured and runtime, wit details.
You and Performa4 keep missing the point that the way Siglent works makes operating the scope extremely cumbersome. I will never ever buy an oscilloscope which can't be set to use full memory all time. Same for decoding only what is on screen. And I'm 100% sure that once I show you two the benefits you will fully agree with me (just like your 'customer' initially thought segmented recording wasn't needed). It just takes looking outside the Siglent box.
Siglent decode always full memory.
Siglent can always set for full memory capture.
Even if you want look 1ns/div tb things. But I do not know any true case when I need capture example 100000000 ns and 99999990 outside of display (perhaps you know why they need hide)... then stop scope and look these outside display parts. Why hell because I can simply look both on the screen and also runtime. You just have two timebases on the screen. Dual timebase mode (zoom) can shut off when need fast wfm/s or if not need as is case in many times. You tell you need full memory lenghth 99.9%... I can tell that I need (perhaps) full max memory length roughly 0.1% exept in cases where I need max samplerate with quite slow signals. You need 200 or 20M lenght nearly all time. How you did your works when scopes have only 500pts or 10k or 100k memory. Even Tektronix 465 can use for decode, and of course full screen... full memory length (Tek scope camera was memory and decode done using table pencil and ruler... and more fun Tek 7054 can use... )
Btw, I have looked oscilloscopes, A and B brands, even C brands tens of years totally out from Siglent box, naturally because whole Siglent is just born, even now I'm not boxed (no one can put me in box as long as I'm in good oxygen). Also there is no money what force some relationship. So I can free say what ever I want or like. Also no one can buy my opinion, I have enough everything here.
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Given that the DS1054Z is already at the very bottom of the price range (Mariana Trench level) when bought new, there's almost no reason to sell it.
a) Not true, there's still Owons and Hanteks below that.
b) Why the hate? The DS1054Z was a revolutionary device for the money and was released long before Siglent had anything comparable in that price range. Dave was so blown away by it that he did a whole series of videos, you can't say that for any Siglent. Even today it's still good value (to non-snobs who just want to see four wiggly lines on a screen with minimal investment - a perfectly valid position to be in).
It's not the bottom of a dark pit, it's the first rung of a ladder.
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I like that the time base accuracy (1ppm initially) is as good as that of the SDS5000X and the channel skew specification is even a bit better (<100ps vs. <150ps). I like a lot that they even specified the trigger jitter for a scope of this price range and the value for CH1..CH4 is actually a magnitude better (<10ps vs. <100ps) than that from the SDS5000X. In both cases I assume that the (older) SDS5000X is just a bit less optimistic, but still.
It's also good to see that the signal generator is internal now (even though it's more of a toy with 3V amplitude at 16kPts for arbitrary signals). In sum, it really looks like a nice scope and not much of a step down from the SDS5000X other than the sample rate, maximum bandwidth and probe interface (but I really like that they kept the probe detection).
BTW: in the table "Models and Key Specifications", the datasheet indicates that only the SDS2354X can be upgraded to 500MHz and doesn't mention bandwidth upgrades for the lower models. Yet later under "Optional Accessories" in lists bandwidth upgrades options for all models.
SDSQOOOXP-4BW02 - 100 MHZ to 200 MHZ bandwidth upgrade (4-ch model) (software
SDSZOOOXP-4BW03 - 200 MHZ to 350 MHZ bandwidth upgrade (4-ch model) (software)
SDSZOOOXP-4BW05 - 350 MHZ to 500 MHZ bandwidth upgrade (4-ch model) (software)
SDSZOOOXP-ZBW03 - 100 MHZ to 350 MHZ bandwidth upgrade (2-ch model) (software)
So letting aside that the 2 channel model seems to be limited to 200MHz: is it sure that all 4 channel models can be upgraded to 500MHz?
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I like that the time base accuracy (1ppm initially)
In comparison rigol 5000 got 10ppm in general, where siglent claims 3.5ppm for 10years aging...
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@0xdeadbeef
CH1..CH4 is actually a magnitude better (<10ps vs. <100ps) than that from the SDS5000X. In both cases I assume that the (older) SDS5000X is just a bit less optimistic, but still.
Not sure if you copied the proper values.
Reading the SDS5000 specs it says (on the 2020-01 sheet) in the trigger system paragraph;
<9ps RMS (typical) for ≥300MHz sine and ≥6 divisions peak to peak amplitude for vertical gain settings from 2.5mV/ div to 10V/div.
<5ps RMS (typical) for ≥500MHz sine and ≥6 divisions peak to peak amplitude for vertical gain settings from 2.5mV/ div to 10V/div.
Eric
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Given that the DS1054Z is already at the very bottom of the price range (Mariana Trench level) when bought new, there's almost no reason to sell it.
a) Not true, there's still Owons and Hanteks below that.
b) Why the hate? The DS1054Z was a revolutionary device for the money and was released long before Siglent had anything comparable in that price range. Dave was so blown away by it that he did a whole series of videos, you can't say that for any Siglent. Even today it's still good value (to non-snobs who just want to see four wiggly lines on a screen with minimal investment - a perfectly valid position to be in).
It's not the bottom of a dark pit, it's the first rung of a ladder.
Eh, hate? Where do you get that from! No hate here, I own one myself! But it really doesn't have the kind of resale value you need to notably offset the cost of any of these Siglent scopes. S, it's better to keep it.
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I like that the time base accuracy (1ppm initially) is as good as that of the SDS5000X and the channel skew specification is even a bit better (<100ps vs. <150ps). I like a lot that they even specified the trigger jitter for a scope of this price range and the value for CH1..CH4 is actually a magnitude better (<10ps vs. <100ps) than that from the SDS5000X. In both cases I assume that the (older) SDS5000X is just a bit less optimistic, but still.
It's also good to see that the signal generator is internal now (even though it's more of a toy with 3V amplitude at 16kPts for arbitrary signals). In sum, it really looks like a nice scope and not much of a step down from the SDS5000X other than the sample rate, maximum bandwidth and probe interface (but I really like that they kept the probe detection).
BTW: in the table "Models and Key Specifications", the datasheet indicates that only the SDS2354X can be upgraded to 500MHz and doesn't mention bandwidth upgrades for the lower models. Yet later under "Optional Accessories" in lists bandwidth upgrades options for all models.
SDSQOOOXP-4BW02 - 100 MHZ to 200 MHZ bandwidth upgrade (4-ch model) (software
SDSZOOOXP-4BW03 - 200 MHZ to 350 MHZ bandwidth upgrade (4-ch model) (software)
SDSZOOOXP-4BW05 - 350 MHZ to 500 MHZ bandwidth upgrade (4-ch model) (software)
SDSZOOOXP-ZBW03 - 100 MHZ to 350 MHZ bandwidth upgrade (2-ch model) (software)
So letting aside that the 2 channel model seems to be limited to 200MHz: is it sure that all 4 channel models can be upgraded to 500MHz?
imho internal generator is good option if remember that also SDS2000XPlus have quite good SFRA. Without external generator it can do SFRA from 10Hz to 50MHz. And this BodePlotII IS really good, like reference to others (when look this this class of equipments).
How you look 2 channel model is limnited to 200MHz when there is 2 channel upgrade to 350MHz listed.
But then with 500MHz upgrade. It need tightly understand and take to account what is told in data sheet.
First up to 350MHz versions time scale is 1000s - 1ns/div and with 500MHz upgrade 500ps/div - 1000s/div
But then it is also clearly stated: In interleaving mode bandwidth is 500MHz, risetime is 0.8ns; in non-interleaving mode bandwidth is 350MHz, risetime is 1ns
Interleaving mode=for one ADC chip only 1 channel is active (2GSa/s).
My opinion why 500MHz risetime is not 0.7ns is that BW fresponse shape also change. (different filtering? As we well know, scopes what have "max flat - brick wall" type response it also, of course, produce lower risetime vs gaussian fresp..)
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Given that the DS1054Z is already at the very bottom of the price range (Mariana Trench level) when bought new, there's almost no reason to sell it.
a) Not true, there's still Owons and Hanteks below that.
b) Why the hate? The DS1054Z was a revolutionary device for the money and was released long before Siglent had anything comparable in that price range. Dave was so blown away by it that he did a whole series of videos, you can't say that for any Siglent. Even today it's still good value (to non-snobs who just want to see four wiggly lines on a screen with minimal investment - a perfectly valid position to be in).
It's not the bottom of a dark pit, it's the first rung of a ladder.
Eh, hate? Where do you get that from! No hate here, I own one myself! But it really doesn't have the kind of resale value you need to notably offset the cost of any of these Siglent scopes. S, it's better to keep it.
Actually the Rigol DS1054Z has a much better resell value than any siglent scope. It is almost on any hobbyist / maker bench I see on youtube, I cannot say the same about siglent. There is a level where price matters more than features, and DS1054Z is the winner at that level.
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Actually the Rigol DS1054Z has a much better resell value than any siglent scope. It is almost on any hobbyist / maker bench I see on youtube, I cannot say the same about siglent. There is a level where price matters more than features, and DS1054Z is the winner at that level.
You can buy it new for about €380 (net. €315) through Batronix, including shipping within Europe. You'll get nowhere near that money when selling used. €200, maybe?
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On eBay germany, the last was sold by 322€ in used condition, lowest selling price in the last months was 279€ .
(Using the filter "selled items", you can also choose to search only in your country our worldwide)
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What I don´t really get are the prices for the bandwith-updates…
Difference between the 4-channel 100Mhz siglent and the 200Mhz version is 700€.
But upgrading from 100 to 200Mhz will cost 1300€ :o
And what about this 500Mhz thing..
Batronix claims on their site: "Bandwidth upgrade from 350 MHz to 500 MHz for the SDS2354X Plus. For 2 channels only."
Aha, it´s an upgrade for the 4-channel version - But for 2 channels only ?!
A little bit confusing..
Or the true meaning is, you can upgrade your 2-channel 100Mhz Siglent to 350Mhz (costs 929€) and then from the 350Mhz to 500.. :-//
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Difference between the 4-channel 100Mhz siglent and the 200Mhz version is 700€.
But upgrading from 100 to 200Mhz will cost 1300€ :o
It's the same logic as a plea-bargain.
They know many people won't ever upgrade so they threaten them with much higher prices if they don't buy now.
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Actually the Rigol DS1054Z has a much better resell value than any siglent scope. It is almost on any hobbyist / maker bench I see on youtube, I cannot say the same about siglent. There is a level where price matters more than features, and DS1054Z is the winner at that level.
You can buy it new for about €380 (net. €315) through Batronix, including shipping within Europe. You'll get nowhere near that money when selling used. €200, maybe?
I sold 2 in the past for around $300, lightly used. If you put them in auction mode, a significant number of buyers will bid and pay around $300.
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@0xdeadbeef
CH1..CH4 is actually a magnitude better (<10ps vs. <100ps) than that from the SDS5000X. In both cases I assume that the (older) SDS5000X is just a bit less optimistic, but still.
Not sure if you copied the proper values.
Reading the SDS5000 specs it says (on the 2020-01 sheet) in the trigger system paragraph;
<9ps RMS (typical) for ≥300MHz sine and ≥6 divisions peak to peak amplitude for vertical gain settings from 2.5mV/ div to 10V/div.
<5ps RMS (typical) for ≥500MHz sine and ≥6 divisions peak to peak amplitude for vertical gain settings from 2.5mV/ div to 10V/div.
Eric
Well, I guess they updated that part of the datasheet at some point. The datasheet I had at hand is rather old (January 2019) and I was too lazy to download a new one. And in this datasheet, the "Jitter <100 ps (CH1 ~ CH4)" statement is the only one in the "Trigger System" table. Anywhere, it was suspected from the start that these values were a bit pessimistic.
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Why hell because I can simply look both on the screen and also runtime. You just have two timebases on the screen. Dual timebase mode (zoom)
Yeah the good old zoom mode crutch (again) which eats away 30% or more of the screen real estate. Very nice if you have 3 or 4 signals, bus decoding and maybe some digital signals and / or measurements on screen. Crammed into the zoom screen that becomes an unreadable mess anyway. Try do some mixed (digital / analog) circuit debugging and you'll see how this gets cumbersome quickly.
How you did your works when scopes have only 500pts or 10k or 100k memory.
Much slower. I can tell you that because it needed re-capture after recapture while coming up with different ways to trigger on a specific event. There is a reason why oscilloscopes have more and more memory nowadays: to work faster. It makes no sense to not be able to use that all the time without needing to give up 30% of the screen just to coerce the oscilloscope to use more memory.
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Difference between the 4-channel 100Mhz siglent and the 200Mhz version is 700€.
Never mind. People will only be buying the 100MHz model. The rest of the prices are irrelevant.
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;D
But there is the thing about the 500Mhz bandwith upgrade and only for 2 channel….what does it means.
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;D
But there is the thing about the 500Mhz bandwith upgrade and only for 2 channel….what does it means.
From what I read, it means that you can only have 500MHz in 2 channels. You can't have a 4-channel 500MHz scope.
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So the 500Mhz are uninteresting for me, 350Mhz are more than enough for the things I do at home.
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In a nutshell, four channels make interleaving impossible, so the sample rate drops to 1GSa/s. And with that, 500MHz bandwidth would be somewhat pointless for anything but perfect sines.
With only two channels, interleaving increases the sample rate to 2GSa/s which is OKish for 500MHz.
Side note: didn't notice at first, but the SDS2000X Plus also lacks the VGA output and the 10MHz in/out. No showstoppers from my point of view, but worth noting.
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;D
But there is the thing about the 500Mhz bandwith upgrade and only for 2 channel….what does it means.
Why it is so amazing difficult to understand... it is also told in datasheet. Also in Reply #121 it is said.
System is build so that in 4 channel models there is 2 ADC chips. One for CH 1 and 2 and one for CH 3 and 4.
ADC works interleaved mode when it handle only one channel it can 2GSa/s.
Now if one have 500MHz upgrade it opens 500MHz BW when ADCs are working interleaved mode. (2GSs/s)
It reduce BW back to 350MHz when scope goes to non-interleaved mode (1Gsa/s). It need also note that ADC work always full speed 2G interleaved or 1G non-interleaved independent of if decimated samplerate is slower.
If one ADC is in non-interleaved mode then also other is forced to non-interleaved mode.
Why it is so. Simple. 1GSa/s is not enough for 500MHz BW. Theoretically 500MHz BW minus very little is possible for unknown signals but only if we have theoretically ideal 500MHz lp brick wall filter and nearly infinite amount of samples for do true Sin(x)/x interpolation... just as example HPs Chris Rehorn explain long time ago.
So 500MHz BW (after upgrade) is only for max 2 channels simultaneously on and so that mode is interleaved, so CH1 or 2 and/or CH3 or 4 and upgraded scope have 500MHz BW other ways 350MHz. When ADCs goes to non-interleaved mode BW is then 350MHz. So there is autoswitch what change BW filter.
Interleaving /non-interleaving explained in datasheet page 9
Upgrade explained in page 9 and explanation page 10 (note 1. small font)
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In a nutshell, four channels make interleaving impossible, so the sample rate drops to 1GSa/s. And with that, 500MHz bandwidth would be somewhat pointless for anything but perfect sines.
With only two channels, interleaving increases the sample rate to 2GSa/s which is OKish for 500MHz.
Side note: didn't notice at first, but the SDS2000X Plus also lacks the VGA output and the 10MHz in/out. No showstoppers from my point of view, but worth noting.
It is not pointless - there is no such situation, BW (also scopes what are upgraded with 500MHz option) is 350MHz in non-interleaving mode for avoid Nyq-Shan violations. It is told in datasheet.
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In a nutshell, four channels make interleaving impossible, so the sample rate drops to 1GSa/s. And with that, 500MHz bandwidth would be somewhat pointless for anything but perfect sines.
With only two channels, interleaving increases the sample rate to 2GSa/s which is OKish for 500MHz.
Side note: didn't notice at first, but the SDS2000X Plus also lacks the VGA output and the 10MHz in/out. No showstoppers from my point of view, but worth noting.
It is not pointless - there is no such situation, BW (also scopes what are upgraded with 500MHz option) is 350MHz in non-interleaving mode for avoid Nyq-Shan violations. It is told in datasheet.
It's perfectly fine, really. You get a 500MHz scope if you use only two channels at the same time (which includes trigger, I guess) and 350MHz with all 4. I could get plenty of use out of that configuration.
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In a nutshell, four channels make interleaving impossible, so the sample rate drops to 1GSa/s. And with that, 500MHz bandwidth would be somewhat pointless for anything but perfect sines.
With only two channels, interleaving increases the sample rate to 2GSa/s which is OKish for 500MHz.
It is not pointless - there is no such situation, BW (also scopes what are upgraded with 500MHz option) is 350MHz in non-interleaving mode for avoid Nyq-Shan violations. It is told in datasheet.
I feel you objected to something I didn't say. The "would be" indicates a type 2 conditional which is used to refer to a situation that is unreal.
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I feel you objected to something I didn't say. The "would be" indicates a type 2 conditional which is used to refer to a situation that is unreal.
Ok. Yes it looks like... But now it is clear (also to me ;) )
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I won´t talk dirty about rigol, never ever - I´ve been "grown up" ( as far as a man in it´s 40s can grow up) with them what private usage concerns.
But have a look at the frontpanel of the siglent…
Dedicated trigger mode buttons...my eyes are going wet... ;)
The cooperation with lecroy is a clear benefit for siglent´s own products.
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Still missing the 'force trigger' button though. >:D
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;D You again… ;)
Force I didn´t need in real.
Pain in the arse was the rigol front - I alway misunderstood the "Auto" button for the triggermode... :palm:
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I'd probably miss force trigger but it wouldn't kill me.
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Force I didn´t need in real.
It comes in quite handy to check signals with the triggering in normal mode. I use it regulary but like maginnovision it is something I could do without.
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Hello,
I have expressed many times my interest for the new SDS2000X Plus MSO....but I don't know what to do today.
I had a very bad experience few weeks ago with Siglent. I bought a SVA1015X which came with a very old calibration certificate.
Siglent did not give any sign of life after having informed me and Batronix that they were going to send me a recent device before the end of the year (2019).
They don't have a working cal center in Germany yet so they had to send me a new device.
And Im still waiting so Batronix proceed to a refund....
Im very disapointed :--
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The hardware seems to be a simplification from the older sds5000x series:
https://int.siglent.com/products-document/sds5000x/ (https://int.siglent.com/products-document/sds5000x/)
https://int.siglent.com/products-document/sds2000xp/ (https://int.siglent.com/products-document/sds2000xp/)
The frame rate and measurement speed of the SDS5000X series are simply terrible (~5000 frames/s with low memory depth) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxu19IFHMgc&feature=emb_title (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxu19IFHMgc&feature=emb_title)
At the level of hantek scopes :) :)
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Hi,
I've ordered a 2104 now, should arrive in the next days.
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Are you selling your MSO5074 ?
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Hi,
Yes, I´ve sold it.
Placed it in eBay and it was gone in the first hour….
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The SDS plus should arrive tomorrow, on evening.
I´m exiting about the things it could do better/worse than my former owned rigol…
The frame rate and measurement speed of the SDS5000X series are simply terrible (~5000 frames/s with low memory depth)
Will check this.
By the way, "terrible" in comparison to what ?
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The SDS plus should arrive tomorrow, on evening.
I´m exiting about the things it could do better/worse than my former owned rigol…
The frame rate and measurement speed of the SDS5000X series are simply terrible (~5000 frames/s with low memory depth)
Will check this.
By the way, "terrible" in comparison to what ?
Terrible in that opinions are based on a year old video and 2 SDS5kX FW updates have been released since Daves video.
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It was discussed in some detail in the SDS5000X thread how the specified waveforms per second numbers are only true for point mode and drop drastically with linear or sinc interpolation.
Not a showstoppper for me but worth noticing, especially when comparing to the current Rigol scopes.
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Tadaaa… ;)
[attachimg=1]
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So, after a little bit acclimatization ( it´s cold outside), I coudn´t resist any longer and turned it on.
Pictures in the evening are a bad idea, so I´ll do it in the next days.
Here some impressions:
Nice building quality although it´s lightweight and thin, stable standing.
Turned it on....boot time appx 43s.
Clear menu structures, fast response.
Display ist clear and bright ( better than rigol 5000 even after it´s modification), touchresponse is fast ( better than rigol).
Lag between swiping and line movement is nicely short ( better than rigol).
First a little surprise: The AWG is working, wtf ?!
Ah, all options are in trial mode... ;D
Fan noise is acceptable quiet, quieter than...rigol. ;)
The 2 GSa/s remains when you choose ch1+ch3 or ch2+ch4, also the memdepth.
Memdepth : It´s manual selectable...
More things in the next days, maybe I take it to work to measure the updaterate.
First conclusion after a few minutes of playing with it:
I won´t blame my former rigol mso5, but there are some things siglent had done it better.
Display : bigger, brighter, clearer
Touchpanel : Response is remarkable faster, more exactly.
Menus: Sorry, no comparision(siglent is better).
Handling in general is better, performance in general seems ( must test it longer) a little bit faster.
Actually, I got only positive thoughts on it.
To be continued..
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So the column "remaining times" at the option screen reflects the remaining usage of this function?
Example: if you never use the CAN decoder, even if you switched the scope on for 100x, this functions still got 30 usages left?
(I hope Siglent will count only down again after a switch-off of the scope).
If it is like this, it is a fair solution - it would give you at least 30 days of option usage and if you do not need the options frequently (e.g. AWG) they will be available even in a year.
(I am not familiar with Siglent, it might be the case with other of their scopes too and thus kind of obvious for some people, though it is not for me)
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Example: if you never use the CAN decoder, even if you switched the scope on for 100x, this functions still got 30 usages left?
It seems so - I´ve only used the AWG and activated the power analysis for looking what´s inside the menus.
And both of them have now "29" left.
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Hm. You know, just going by the Siglent EU prices on their website, a SDS2354X PLUS with Logic Probe, Wavegen and CANFD decoder license comes in at 3549€ net.
For about the same money (less, actually) I can currently buy a RTB2004 bundle with (roughly) the same specs. The RTB2004 has only 300MHz bandwidth, but an actual 10bit ADC with 2.5 GSa/s (interleaved) and a higher resolution screen. Also, no bandwidth upgrade option.
AAAargh!
PS: The RTB2004 also has a lot less memory and I think "only" 50000 wfms/s update rate.
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Example: if you never use the CAN decoder, even if you switched the scope on for 100x, this functions still got 30 usages left?
It seems so - I´ve only used the AWG and activated the power analysis for looking what´s inside the menus.
And both of them have now "29" left.
Yes this is the options trial time scheme Siglent use in all of their scopes. 1 use = 1 trial time.
Some of their other equipment use a different scheme.......options are active and free to use for x# of ON hours.
Careful management of trial option usages can keep options available for when you need them for a good long while.
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@MartinM
FYI, you can capture any displayed page straight to a USB using the blue Print button and have a tiny .png file.
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Hi tautech,
Thanks and this is what I know from rigols "quick button" - Press it, then you have a screenshot.
Or you can configure the button for your own needs.
@thinkfat:
The RTB2004 has only 300MHz bandwidth, but an actual 10bit ADC with 2.5 GSa/s (interleaved) and a higher resolution screen.
It´s their biggest advantage in comparision to others - a 10bit ADC and the unbeatable hires screen.
But that´s all in my opinion.
If you need this, you should buy it.
Our (at work) last new scopes were from lecroy, a waverunner 8bit scope and a hdo6034 real 12 bit scope, bought together with 40% off for "only" 26000€.
Still I couldn´t detect any advantage of the 12bit against the 8bit at our daily works.
If your works needs to have higher resolution, then go for more than 8bit.
a SDS2354X PLUS with Logic Probe, Wavegen and CANFD decoder license comes in at 3549€ net.
For me, I don´t need logic probes/option for LA, CAN also and a AWG, I like to use an extended one.
As I said it on the rigol threads, I won´t spend that money for a chinese brand scope.
Especially when the basic model got it all already ( and the rest must be unlock via software upgrades) - Then you know it´s real price what the hardware concerns.
Therefore, I compare always the basic models.
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Therefore, I compare always the basic models.
Please at least make the table “Horizontal Frequency VS Update Time” in the fastest display mode (or fastest usable display mode).
Is the SPO function adequate?
Is it convenient (and fast) to use the zoom mode?
Is the oscilloscope fast enough when viewing a waveform with a maximum memory depth?
By the way, is anyone going to do a full review?
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Memdepth : It´s manual selectable...
That sounds very promising. Does it always stay that way?
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Memdepth : It´s manual selectable...
That sounds very promising. Does it always stay that way?
AFAIK this is misunderstanding or careless expression. (nice to see you also ask this question even when you know answer already)
There can always manually set limit of maximum capture memory length what oscilloscope can not exceed. As it is in all X/X-E scopes.
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Memdepth : It´s manual selectable...
That sounds very promising. Does it always stay that way?
AFAIK this is misunderstanding or careless expression. (nice to see you also ask this question even when you know answer already)
I don't know the answer and that is why I ask the question. To me it is utterly and totally unclear on whether this oscilloscope can be set to have a fixed memory depth or not (without needing to resort to workaround by using zoom mode c.q. even if that results in data being outside of the display). The original incarnation of this oscilloscope would revert back to automatic memory depth in many cases which was very annoying. In later incarnations the memory depth seems to be always automatic according to your information. Waiting for Martin to (finally) get a clear answer on this topic....
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The maximum (!) memory is selectable also for the SDS5000X, but the manual is a bit vague if you actual force the scope in using the maximum memory:
Memory Depth: The maximum memory depth that can be supported.
According to the formula "acquisition time = sample points x sample interval",
setting a larger memory depth can achieve a higher sample rate for a given
timebase, but more samples require more processing time, degrading the
waveform update rate. With 250 Mpts memory depth, SDS5000X can still run
at full sample rate (5 GSa/s) even when set to the 5 ms/div timebase.
Note: The memory depth here is the upper limit of the memory space allocated
by the oscilloscope. The actual sample points is related to the current timebase
and may be less than memory depth. The actual sample points information can
be obtained in the timebase descriptor box.
For me this sounds a bit like the scope doesn't consider the maximum memory to capture data outside the screen but more like would only use this value to use a higher number of samples for what is shown on the screen. But I may be wrong.
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The maximum (!) memory is selectable also for the SDS5000X, but the manual is a bit vague if you actual force the scope in using the maximum memory:
Memory Depth: The maximum memory depth that can be supported.
According to the formula "acquisition time = sample points x sample interval",
setting a larger memory depth can achieve a higher sample rate for a given
timebase, but more samples require more processing time, degrading the
waveform update rate. With 250 Mpts memory depth, SDS5000X can still run
at full sample rate (5 GSa/s) even when set to the 5 ms/div timebase.
Note: The memory depth here is the upper limit of the memory space allocated
by the oscilloscope. The actual sample points is related to the current timebase
and may be less than memory depth. The actual sample points information can
be obtained in the timebase descriptor box.
For me this sounds a bit like the scope doesn't consider the maximum memory to capture data outside the screen but more like would only use this value to use a higher number of samples for what is shown on the screen. But I may be wrong.
The way I read it, it means that it will only use the amount of memory which is (just) enough to fill the screen. But it would be nice if someone can actually test it.
The reason I'm so interested is that I have a customer who might need an oscilloscope later this year and it would be nice to have some other choice besides the R&S RTB2004. This customer already has some Siglent gear due to me suggesting it. But -again- limiting memory depth to the screen would disqualify Siglent scopes.
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Hi,
Note: The memory depth here is the upper limit of the memory space allocated
by the oscilloscope. The actual sample points is related to the current timebase
and may be less than memory depth. The actual sample points information can
be obtained in the timebase descriptor box.
For me it´s a normal behaviour, other scopes are doing it too.
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Pictures..
1)At 10ms/div. you still got the 200mpts memory. 2) 1Mhz signal at 10ms/div. stopped and 3) "zooming" into it. 4) At 500ns/div., 10kpts Memory, 5) At 5ns/div. 100pts .
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Hi,
Note: The memory depth here is the upper limit of the memory space allocated
by the oscilloscope. The actual sample points is related to the current timebase
and may be less than memory depth. The actual sample points information can
be obtained in the timebase descriptor box.
For me it´s a normal behaviour, other scopes are doing it too.
No. Keysight (the general purpose scopes) for example will always use the maximum amount of memory. On other oscilloscopes you can either set a specific amount of memory OR have the oscilloscope manage it automatically to maximise the number of waveforms/s. I've used over a dozen of different DSOs over the years and Siglent really is an exception if they don't allow to force a fixed memory depth.
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Hi,
Note: The memory depth here is the upper limit of the memory space allocated
by the oscilloscope. The actual sample points is related to the current timebase
and may be less than memory depth. The actual sample points information can
be obtained in the timebase descriptor box.
For me it´s a normal behaviour, other scopes are doing it too.
No. Keysight for example will always use the maximum amount of memory. On other oscilloscopes you can either set a specific amount of memory OR have the oscilloscope manage it automatically to maximise the number of waveforms/s. I've used over a dozen of different DSOs over the years and Siglent really is an exception if they don't allow to force a memory depth.
Yeah, and that's really a pity :-( It means there's nothing stored pre-trigger and if I want to look "back" to see what happened just right outside of the screen, I won't be able to.
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No. Keysight (the general purpose scopes) for example will always use the maximum amount of memory.
Maybe i got it in a wrong memory, but I saw it on lecroy and rigol scopes too.
First I can check tomorrow on work, the second was gone…
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No. Keysight (the general purpose scopes) for example will always use the maximum amount of memory.
Maybe i got it in a wrong memory, but I saw it on lecroy and rigol scopes too.
First I can check tomorrow on work, the second was gone…
My Lecroy Wavepro 7k seems to have the same limitation where it won't acquire outside the screen (I hadn't checked that so I'm unpleasantly surprised; being able to use all the memory is a common feature to me). Given the relationship between Lecroy and Siglent this isn't a surprise but Lecroy is also an oddball because they don't have peak-detect.
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We got Waverunner 9000 and HDO6000 here, as they were our last bought scopes.
Further a Wavesurfer 3000, which is clearly a siglent scope.
Apart from them some older models made by Iwatsu.
Nevertheless, if you got (like this siglent does) 200mpts Memory at 10ms timebase and 2GSa/s, do you expect the same amount on a timebase at nanosecond-range ?
Not ironically meant, actually I don´t know it really.
For me it seems "normal" that memdepth will reduce the shorter the timebase is.
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On the RTB you can say 10(20)M memory and even at 1ns timebase it'll capture that amount of memory at 2.5gs/s. So you can single capture then pull the timebase out and see more data.
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Memdepth : It´s manual selectable...
That sounds very promising. Does it always stay that way?
AFAIK this is misunderstanding or careless expression. (nice to see you also ask this question even when you know answer already)
I don't know the answer and that is why I ask the question. To me it is utterly and totally unclear on whether this oscilloscope can be set to have a fixed memory depth or not (without needing to resort to workaround by using zoom mode c.q. even if that results in data being outside of the display). The original incarnation of this oscilloscope would revert back to automatic memory depth in many cases which was very annoying. In later incarnations the memory depth seems to be always automatic according to your information. Waiting for Martin to (finally) get a clear answer on this topic....
I think perhaps your memory is too short.
Here Performa01 answer your own question November 2019...in this same thread.
Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus coming
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2019, 01:51:21 am »
Or perhaps you think this can just change suddenly as some random small FW fix... No.
Also this whole question have handled many other times and in every corner you rise up this same question just for advertise this question.
Also one adverse effect IF user can force max memory for fast timebases is that he loose partially or whole wfm history buffer aka always background working slow segmented memory acquisition or dramatically change it, but of course this is not reason because when user can select something he is also responsible about consequences. Most of scopes keep only last capture data and DPO brightness information in display memory is only what are left from previous acquisitions. Siglent works very different. With pros and cons.
What I hope is that Siglent change TFT for 4:3 or even turn it 90 degree and develop this hardware based zoom window even more better with more vertical room for display. Also need deveop perhaps bit more sophisticated zoom window positioning system and finally so that times are related tightly to trigger position and wash and clean brains from center of (main) display thinking. Trigger position need be always time zero. As we know in Siglent trigger can today select for fixed position or (usual, default) fixed offset (fixed offset is from center what is imho also partially wrong. It must be fixed offset from user selected trigger position what is always as time zero. But this is for other discussion)
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Or perhaps you think this can just change suddenly as some random small FW fix... No.
You never know as Siglent keeps adding new features to firmware. As you can see from the replies from other forum members the way Siglent works is different compared to what is standard amongst oscilloscope manufacturers. And worse: it is causing loss of sales opportunities.
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On the RTB you can say 10(20)M memory and even at 1ns timebase it'll capture that amount of memory at 2.5gs/s. So you can single capture then pull the timebase out and see more data.
It's the same even on the lowly Rigol DS1054Z. If I set the memory depth to 24Mpts, then even at 5ns/div the full 24Mpts are captured. After stopping the sweep, I can zoom out up to 2ms/div and have a look what happened long before the trigger event. I can also engage the second timebase and zoom back in and have the full details sampled at 1GSa/s available for inspection. This is one of the true merits of deep memory scopes and I cannot understand why Siglent would choose a different approach.
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For me it seems "normal" that memdepth will reduce the shorter the timebase is.
And now I know why... ;)
Today at work, I grab some of our scopes ( all from lecroy), turning them on and having a look.
All lecroy models, 20yrs old waverunner, our new flagships waverunner 9054 ( 20GSa/s), hdo 6034 (12bit), a wavesurfer 432 ( from iwatsu 2005), a wavesurfer 3024 (from 2018)……
They all got one thing in common:
Same behaviour as the siglent scope….memdepth will decrease when the timebase becoming shorter.
Even by our newest scopes, the expensive waverunner and hdo.
So I couldn´t believe that this would be a failure or a bug in general over the years and models from lecroy.
Btw., the only scope in our house that "keeps" the full memdepth at any timebase is the rigol ds1054z... 8)
Apart from that, how realistic are the chance, that this behaviour could be "fixed" via firmware ?
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There is virtually no chance this couldn't be changed if they wanted to change it. How much work that'd be I have no idea. I believe the micsig scopes also retain memory depth when explicitly set.
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My Tektronix MDO3k seems to capture the full memory depth that you set regardless of time-base. I guess that is the point to setting the memory in the first place.. since that setting would serve no purpose if it was time-base dependent.
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Before the asian low cost scope came up, I´ve done measurings with lecroy models only, so I don´t care about the memdepth "problem" of the siglent.
But....
Having 200mpts memory is somekind of worthless, when you can use it very limited.
You only got it in ms-ranges….
The selectable maximum memdepth is only vaild for slower timebases - above it´s functionless….
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Before the asian low cost scope came up, I´ve done measurings with lecroy models only, so I don´t care about the memdepth "problem" of the siglent.
But....
Having 200mpts memory is somekind of worthless, when you can use it very limited.
You only got it in ms-ranges….
The selectable maximum memdepth is only vaild for slower timebases - above it´s functionless….
Why? I'm not suggesting it is a good thing.. but if you want to record all that data why not zoom out, capture and zoom back in. As long as you are capturing at 2 Gs there is no loss of fidelity in the Y domain. It may be a UI decision.
Siglent has segmented memory too.. Are we sure that people are using the memory options correctly??? I would think there is a lot that can be configured.. perhaps a "frame" of segmented memory is limited to the zoom level.. and the # of frames depends on your overall memory depth setting.. etc.. This thing can "save" hundreds of triggered frames.. for later review, right?
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This is the point where I get a little bit confused today.
Obviously lecroy, a "A-Brand", does the memory thing handle like siglent ( and for what they´re "blamed") for decades.
I did a capture of a 1Mhz sine in ms-range and zoomed in with no problems because 200mpts memory was active.
But in reverse this wouldn´t go on the siglent because of the memory decreasing.
Is this a really problem....
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Before the asian low cost scope came up, I´ve done measurings with lecroy models only, so I don´t care about the memdepth "problem" of the siglent.
But....
Having 200mpts memory is somekind of worthless, when you can use it very limited.
You only got it in ms-ranges….
The selectable maximum memdepth is only vaild for slower timebases - above it´s functionless….
Why? I'm not suggesting it is a good thing.. but if you want to record all that data why not zoom out, capture and zoom back in.
That is way too tedious. Just one example: often I'm triggering on a signal detail in order to tweak it until it is right. Every now and then I want to zoom out to check whether the rest of the timing is still OK. Your method would mean to zoom in/out every time. That means twisting the time/div knob hundreds of times. Way too slow and way too much things to deal with. With >4 signals, decoding, measurements, etc zoom mode eats away way too much of the screen. And it is not like the Siglents are really cheap compared to the competition which does memory management in a normal way.
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It was stated (and proofed) that rigol uses the full memory at any time, R&S probably too, Tek probably also.
Keysight/Agilent/HP I don´t know.
But Lecroy do it the same way like siglent….Lecroy, a brand named in a row with Tek and Keysight and of course R&S.
This makes me confusing…
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This is the point where I get a little bit confused today.
Obviously lecroy, a "A-Brand", does the memory thing handle like siglent ( and for what they´re "blamed") for decades.
I did a capture of a 1Mhz sine in ms-range and zoomed in with no problems because 200mpts memory was active.
But in reverse this wouldn´t go on the siglent because of the memory decreasing.
Is this a really problem....
That depends largely on your habits (and what you typically do). The Siglent way means, if you want to make use of the deep memory, you need to remember starting from a slow timebase, setting up a potentially complex trigger for an event that happens once every blue moon and not seeing what you captured until you zoom in. I personally find that a little impractical.
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I'm in agreement with thinkfat and nctnico. I trigger on one thing then I want to make sure others are in line after that. I don't typically zoom out because especially when you have lots of stuff on screen that hurts visibility(even with the R&S resizing ability), but I do scroll forward and back. I'm typically using 2-4 analog and 12-16 digital, so the higher the resolution and the bigger the screen the better. It's a big part of why I still have the RTB not the RTM or RTA. For some things I'd love the low noise RTA, and I'd like to have power analysis from either... But considering the BW is fine they just aren't offering me enough to switch. The SDS2000X plus has more downsides and, honestly, having the "bigger" memory doesn't even help because I use the segmented(history) memory anyway which gives me much more overall memory.
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Thankyou, your post makes it clearer to me.
The "issue" that the siglent got is not a general one, only specific wise.
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All lecroy models [...] got one thing in common:
Same behaviour as the siglent scope….memdepth will decrease when the timebase becoming shorter.
The better Lecroys (e.g. Waverunner 6zi) offer a selection between "Maximum Memory" and "Fixed Sample Rate" (in real-time sampling mode).
In the "maximum memory" setting, you select the "maximum sample points" and the scope adjusts the sample rate when changing the time scale (or pre/post trigger delays) to make use of the given sample points.
In the "fixed sample rate" setting, you select the sample rate which is kept whatever time base you select. "Lesser" Lecroys like the WS3000 don't offer this kind of flexibility but support only the "maximum memory" mode.
Anyway, note that when using a fixed memory length, even if this means that your record length is ten times longer that what you seen on the screen, this also decreases the update rate and increases the dead time. So while it can be handy to force a scope into doing so, this is usually not what you want as only or even default setting in normal trigger mode. In single trigger mode though, there is no real reason to not fill the whole memory. So when comparing the behavior of different scopes, the trigger mode could make a difference.
Of course you could argue whether acquiring offscreen data after the trigger event is always more interesting than offscreen data before the trigger event. So if capturing offscreen data was supposed to be an important feature, you'd also need a setup that allows to somehow define a maximum pre/post trigger offset. I would think that no scope on the market offers something like that.
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My Tektronix MDO3k seems to capture the full memory depth that you set regardless of time-base. I guess that is the point to setting the memory in the first place.. since that setting would serve no purpose if it was time-base dependent.
If it have 10M memory length and 5GSa/s and IF it always use full memory regardless of timebase how it reach nearly 300kwfm/s capturing speed. Yes of course it can not. With 5GSa/s alone 10Msamle takes 2ms. (I believe there is other mode for max wfm speed)
If user have 1ns/div setting and IF screen is (just for easy numbers) 1 div wide... user can see 10ns and 1999980 ns is out from display and rest are invisible included to true visual blind time.
Difference with Siglent is that you need look both on the screen at same time, long memory and then detailed slice as need, if you want long memory and short timebase details. Often these cases do not need maximal wfm speed so this is not problem at all (and as previously told and is obvious no one can do fast long memory), still Siglent hw based second timebase is quite usable. You set 1st timebase and memory limit setting for wanted memory length and then 2nd timebase as fast as need for wanted details and then position 2nd timebase where ever you need inside long trace. Also force trigger position horizontally to fixed position so that you have ok amount of pre and post trigger lenth. Long memory trace (slow timebase)and then this narrow window, including that you can also in runtime look what ever place in whole lengtht and also use different time bases if need. Why need hide this long trace and look only this tiny slice.
Disadvantage in Siglent is that zoomed window have less vertical room. Well enough for 8 bit resolution itself but if there is 16LA and 4 analog then it is really too small window. What Siglent can do if they want is: When zoomed (and this is important mode in siglent) this long trace aka main window vertical size can reduce more and give much more room for this hardware based zoom window. Why they keep is as half screen. Also is it difficult to use some 3:4 TFT or otherways more vertical room, specially when we talk MSO scopes. This is optimal for situations where "normal mode" is zoomed window open.
Due to heavy lack of internet speed just now I can not search who told something about segmented acq. vs long mem or something like it.
1. Of course Siglent have fast segmented acquistion mode, up to 90000 segments depending segment length and some other things.
2. Siglent have also always background running slow segmented acquisition(current wfm speed). (wfm history buffer fifo what user can inspect after stop and also there every segment have time stamp and max amount of segments is depending about used memory length and some other settings but unlike fast segmented mode here user can not set segment limit number just segments fifo with max segments.)
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Of course you could argue whether acquiring offscreen data after the trigger event is always more interesting than offscreen data before the trigger event. So if capturing offscreen data was supposed to be an important feature, you'd also need a setup that allows to somehow define a maximum pre/post trigger offset. I would think that no scope on the market offers something like that.
Of course Siglent do....
(some models with new FW) you can force trigger to wanted position in memory.
This can partially solve this need.
There is two modes in Siglent for trigger horizontal position.
1. Time offset mode from center of screen.
2. Fixed horizontal (memory/display) position mode and because display width from left border to right border in Siglent = acquisition length aka memory length it can say that trigger can set to fixed position in currently used memory length. Of course if then user do other settings and memory length change its proportional position in memory length stay same. With this feature it can set even for " analog scope" style where trigger stay start of sweep (exept amount of fixed (if not adjustable in some specials...) trig delay what normal analog scopes have)
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About new SDS2000X Plus SFRA aka Bode Plot.
SDS2kX+ have 50MHz internal signal generator.
I have not SDS2000X Plus and here in China all who knows are now spring holidays.
Who can check if this model can use internal signal generator for BP use only without FG license installed. Even with scopes with external SAG USB generator do not need SAG license if use this only for BodePlot.
If use SDS2kX+ internal signal gen only for BP (BP controls it automatically) do it work now with latest FW without FG licence.
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This is the point where I get a little bit confused today.
Obviously lecroy, a "A-Brand", does the memory thing handle like siglent ( and for what they´re "blamed") for decades.
I did a capture of a 1Mhz sine in ms-range and zoomed in with no problems because 200mpts memory was active.
But in reverse this wouldn´t go on the siglent because of the memory decreasing.
Is this a really problem....
In couple of cases I had the situation where the point where I could trigger and what I really wanted to check was far apart (concrete practical case: SPI messages but could be anything else as well). To be able to adjust the trigger I had to set a small timebase (zoom in) in then set a bigger timebase (zoom out) for capture then set a smaller timebase for the captured signal (zoom in) again and then scroll. A bit tedious (compared to just scrolling), but nothing I'd really call a problem (considering the price point).
Maybe it can be solved similarly how I did it with FFT, where FFT is also done using the samples that you see on the screen: Set a timebase that all needed samples (for example 1M) fit onto the screen and use zoomed signal window to see the actual signal shape (done via pushing the timebase button). In case of FFT it means 3 different windows (please don't ask why I want to see both the signal shape and FFT output; simply SA would have been complex to use) or alternatively continuously switch between FFT output and 3 orders of magnitude timbase difference for checking signal shape.
Naturally this DSO has an excellent display with much better resolution (compared to what I've used) that probably helps but I still could imagine some improvements in this regard.
I couldn't care less how the top DSO vendors do it as based on their price point (even used) I'm not their target customer and for a big pile of money they have probably a solution for just about anything.
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1. Time offset mode from center of screen.
2. Fixed horizontal (memory/display) position mode and because display width from left border to right border in Siglent = acquisition length aka memory length it can say that trigger can set to fixed position in currently used memory length. Of course if then user do other settings and memory length change its proportional position in memory length stay same. With this feature it can set even for " analog scope" style where trigger stay start of sweep (exept amount of fixed (if not adjustable in some specials...) trig delay what normal analog scopes have)
Do you mean when Delay displayed in the top left corner (see attached picture)? Hmm, this sounds great then.
It would be good to know which model/firmwares support this.
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1. Time offset mode from center of screen.
2. Fixed horizontal (memory/display) position mode and because display width from left border to right border in Siglent = acquisition length aka memory length it can say that trigger can set to fixed position in currently used memory length. Of course if then user do other settings and memory length change its proportional position in memory length stay same. With this feature it can set even for " analog scope" style where trigger stay start of sweep (exept amount of fixed (if not adjustable in some specials...) trig delay what normal analog scopes have)
Do you mean when Delay displayed in the top left corner (see attached picture)? Hmm, this sounds great then.
It would be good to know which model/firmwares support this.
All X-E, 2kX+ and 5kX models.
X-E: Utility>Reference Pos>Horizontal>Fixed Position.
Then no matter what timebase settings are used the H Pos stays in the same position on the display.
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All lecroy models [...] got one thing in common:
Same behaviour as the siglent scope….memdepth will decrease when the timebase becoming shorter.
The better Lecroys (e.g. Waverunner 6zi) offer a selection between "Maximum Memory" and "Fixed Sample Rate" (in real-time sampling mode).
In the "maximum memory" setting, you select the "maximum sample points" and the scope adjusts the sample rate when changing the time scale (or pre/post trigger delays) to make use of the given sample points.
In the "fixed sample rate" setting, you select the sample rate which is kept whatever time base you select.
But that still doesn't give you acquisition beyond the edge of the screen even if there is enough memory to do so. And Keysight proves that it is perfectly possible to have high update rates AND deep memory at the same time.
Anyway, note that when using a fixed memory length, even if this means that your record length is ten times longer that what you seen on the screen, this also decreases the update rate and increases the dead time. So while it can be handy to force a scope into doing so, this is usually not what you want as only or even default setting in normal trigger mode. In single trigger mode though, there is no real reason to not fill the whole memory. So when comparing the behavior of different scopes, the trigger mode could make a difference.
Of course you could argue whether acquiring offscreen data after the trigger event is always more interesting than offscreen data before the trigger event. So if capturing offscreen data was supposed to be an important feature, you'd also need a setup that allows to somehow define a maximum pre/post trigger offset. I would think that no scope on the market offers something like that.
In many cases waveform update rate doesn't really matter when debugging digital / mixed signal circuits. Regulary I use normal mode and take single shots of specific events. It would be logical to have the centre of the screen as the centre point of the memory (half left, half right). At the point where this starts to matter you'll need to choose the time/div and trigger offset settings so you capture the part of the signal you want. But with deep memory this isn't difficult. The biggest benefit of deep memory is that you don't have to care so much about the trigger.
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And Keysight proves that it is perfectly possible to have high update rates AND deep memory at the same time.
Keysight own Salesmens University have perhaps own basic math book. 1M memory need one M samples to fill. If sampling speed is 1GSa/s it takes 1ms and even with zero blind time (impossible) 1kwfm/s. But when deep memory is selected and scope is running for high update rates it can not capture deep memory, but salesmens forget to tell it.... Yes there can do example last acquisition trick.... and fool users (I do not know what is Keysight salesmens trick for this). After I have seen tens of years how they fulfill sales brochures and example compare to others in appnotes I do not wonder anything anymore.
But how about deep full mem measurements during this high speed update rate with deep memory, how salesmens jump over this lazy fox. Oh... they never promised...
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And Keysight proves that it is perfectly possible to have high update rates AND deep memory at the same time.
Keysight own Salesmens University have perhaps own basic math book. 1M memory need one M samples to fill. If sampling speed is 1GSa/s it takes 1ms and even with zero blind time (impossible) 1kwfm/s. But when deep memory is selected and scope is running for high update rates it can not capture deep memory, but salesmens forget to tell it.... Yes there can do example last acquisition trick.... and fool users (I do not know what is Keysight salesmens trick for this).
There is no fooling users. Now you sound like the sales brochure you loath so much.
Just run two acquisition systems in parallel. One for storage and one for display. I have implemented something similar a couple of years ago. Works like a charm.
But how about deep full mem measurements during this high speed update rate with deep memory, how salesmens jump over this lazy fox. Oh... they never promised...
No oscilloscope can measurements / math realtime. And it seems Siglent does ERES and Sin x/x interpolation in software which is even worse. But then again I don't really care about waveform update rates. I rather have an oscilloscope which offers a high rate of productivity (=least amount of twiddling knobs). The latter is where Siglent needs to improve.
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1. Time offset mode from center of screen.
2. Fixed horizontal (memory/display) position mode and because display width from left border to right border in Siglent = acquisition length aka memory length it can say that trigger can set to fixed position in currently used memory length. Of course if then user do other settings and memory length change its proportional position in memory length stay same. With this feature it can set even for " analog scope" style where trigger stay start of sweep (exept amount of fixed (if not adjustable in some specials...) trig delay what normal analog scopes have)
Do you mean when Delay displayed in the top left corner (see attached picture)? Hmm, this sounds great then.
It would be good to know which model/firmwares support this.
If we talk about pos 2.
Answer with your image no.
In fixed position mode it is not possible to set trigger position outside main display window.
Your trigger position is far outside of screen. Fixed Position mode trigger reference position is always inside display in user defined fixed horizontal position (what can translate also as fixed position in memory length).
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And Keysight proves that it is perfectly possible to have high update rates AND deep memory at the same time.
Keysight own Salesmens University have perhaps own basic math book. 1M memory need one M samples to fill. If sampling speed is 1GSa/s it takes 1ms and even with zero blind time (impossible) 1kwfm/s. But when deep memory is selected and scope is running for high update rates it can not capture deep memory, but salesmens forget to tell it.... Yes there can do example last acquisition trick.... and fool users (I do not know what is Keysight salesmens trick for this).
There is no fooling users. Now you sound like the sales brochure you loath so much.
Just run two acquisition systems in parallel. One for storage and one for display. I have implemented something similar a couple of years ago. Works like a charm.
But how about deep full mem measurements during this high speed update rate with deep memory, how salesmens jump over this lazy fox. Oh... they never promised...
No oscilloscope can measurements / math realtime. And it seems Siglent does ERES and Sin x/x interpolation in software which is even worse. But then again I don't really care about waveform update rates. I rather have an oscilloscope which offers a high rate of productivity (=least amount of twiddling knobs). The latter is where Siglent needs to improve.
Huhh... how can I stob this laughing, lets make scope what have two screens... fast wfms and then slow deep memory and same power switch so they can run "parallel" oh my... well synched. |O :-DD
But of course it need be fun, now is Spring Festival eve aka New Year eve.
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But that still doesn't give you acquisition beyond the edge of the screen even if there is enough memory to do so. And Keysight proves that it is perfectly possible to have high update rates AND deep memory at the same time.
Is there even any affordable (<10k) Keysight scopes that qualifies for "deep memory"? Last time I had a look, they had 4Mpts which is not exactly what I would call deep.
In many cases waveform update rate doesn't really matter when debugging digital / mixed signal circuits. Regulary I use normal mode and take single shots of specific events. It would be logical to have the centre of the screen as the centre point of the memory (half left, half right). At the point where this starts to matter you'll need to choose the time/div and trigger offset settings so you capture the part of the signal you want. But with deep memory this isn't difficult. The biggest benefit of deep memory is that you don't have to care so much about the trigger.
I not an a update rate aficionado either but typically Keysight sacrifices absolutely everything for update rate. So I'm puzzled that of all possible manufacturers, Keysight would sacrifice update rate for cpaturing additional data. Are you sure that they show this behavior in normal mode and not only in single trigger mode? And as stated above: single trigger mode is a different topic and it's pointless to compare the behavior of one scope in normal trigger mode with another one in single trigger mode.
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4MPts isn't exactly deep indeed but the way (-I think-) Keysight works it is easely expandable to 40Mpts, 400MPts, 4Gpts. Doesn't really matter.
And Keysight doesn't sacrifice anything. If I'm right they use two parallel acquisition systems. One with the large memory which works like a continuous circular buffer and one with a short buffer (enough to fill the screen) to do high update rates. Once you press stop Keysight scopes wait until the rest of the large memory buffer is filled before allowing the user to scroll left / right. It is a very simple & elegant solution.
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4MPts isn't exactly deep indeed but the way (-I think-) Keysight works it is easely expandable to 40Mpts, 400MPts, 4Gpts. Doesn't really matter.
And Keysight doesn't sacrifice anything. If I'm right they use two parallel acquisition systems. One with the large memory which works like a continuous circular buffer and one with a short buffer (enough to fill the screen) to do high update rates. Once you press stop Keysight scopes wait until the rest of the large memory buffer is filled before allowing the user to scroll left / right. It is a very simple & elegant solution.
Can you please explain what you mean by: Keysight works it is easely expandable to 40Mpts, 400MPts, 4Gpts. Doesn't really matter. It sounds interesting
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My Tektronix MDO3k seems to capture the full memory depth that you set regardless of time-base. I guess that is the point to setting the memory in the first place.. since that setting would serve no purpose if it was time-base dependent.
If it have 10M memory length and 5GSa/s and IF it always use full memory regardless of timebase how it reach nearly 300kwfm/s capturing speed. Yes of course it can not. With 5GSa/s alone 10Msamle takes 2ms. (I believe there is other mode for max wfm speed)
If user have 1ns/div setting and IF screen is (just for easy numbers) 1 div wide... user can see 10ns and 1999980 ns is out from display and rest are invisible included to true visual blind time.
Yes, if you set the memory to 10m it will take longer to capture and the number of triggers goes down below the rated speed of the scope. It can take 10 seconds or longer per trigger depending on the time base (i.e. 1/10 sample per second). I thought that is well understood and the exact behavior you want it to have.. You want it to be faster then make the memory smaller.. that is why you have the setting.
The memory length setting would serve no purpose if it was overridden by the time base setting. Why would you ever set it to less than the max? (perhaps segmented memory has something to do with it.. but I think in that case you should have 2 settings, memory length per trigger and number of triggers captured)
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4MPts isn't exactly deep indeed but the way (-I think-) Keysight works it is easely expandable to 40Mpts, 400MPts, 4Gpts. Doesn't really matter.
And Keysight doesn't sacrifice anything. If I'm right they use two parallel acquisition systems. One with the large memory which works like a continuous circular buffer and one with a short buffer (enough to fill the screen) to do high update rates. Once you press stop Keysight scopes wait until the rest of the large memory buffer is filled before allowing the user to scroll left / right. It is a very simple & elegant solution.
So it is something like as think, last acquisition trick... elegant solution yes but...claiming it do deep memory and fast update rate is bit borderline... I do not deny that it can be useful in some cases.
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4MPts isn't exactly deep indeed but the way (-I think-) Keysight works it is easely expandable to 40Mpts, 400MPts, 4Gpts. Doesn't really matter.
And Keysight doesn't sacrifice anything. If I'm right they use two parallel acquisition systems. One with the large memory which works like a continuous circular buffer and one with a short buffer (enough to fill the screen) to do high update rates. Once you press stop Keysight scopes wait until the rest of the large memory buffer is filled before allowing the user to scroll left / right. It is a very simple & elegant solution.
Can you please explain what you mean by: Keysight works it is easely expandable to 40Mpts, 400MPts, 4Gpts. Doesn't really matter. It sounds interesting
You can make a circular buffer for this purpose as long as you like. The only limitation is the amount of pre-fill time. If memory is split in half and the 50% mark of the memory is at the centre of the screen (remember the trigger point itself can be anywhere so it doesn't make sense to use the trigger point a reference to a location in the memory) then you have to wait until 50% of the memory is filled before the first trigger event can be processed. With 4Mpts (and in case of Keysight 1Mpts in reality) the prefill time doesn't really matter much.
@rf-loop: no, using parallel acquisition systems isn't borderline anything. It works and gives the user best of both worlds under all circumstances. There are no downsides to it.
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Who can check if this model can use internal signal generator for BP use only without FG license installed.
I can…
But: License is not installed, so far so "good", but my scope got this function in trial-mode, don´t know NOW what happen if the trial is running out.
Maybe I should activate this 27 times to know it - No.. ;)
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4MPts isn't exactly deep indeed but the way (-I think-) Keysight works it is easely expandable to 40Mpts, 400MPts, 4Gpts. Doesn't really matter.
Well, no, for a couple of reasons. We'll see about that.
And Keysight doesn't sacrifice anything. If I'm right they use two parallel acquisition systems.
For sure they sacrifice functionality for update rate. E.g. the first thing they sacrificed was memory depth. In the past they also crippled measurements by using only the onscreen data. Someone in this forum stated this is no longer the case, since they introduced a measurement buffer but my impression is that this is also some kind of workaround instead of measuring and displaying from the actual sample buffer as LeCroy and Tek scopes do.
But anyway: I think it's clear that they only achieve the high update rate by using an expensive specialized ASIC and this makes it impossible for them to easily increase the memory depth. So whatever their current approach is, it can't be easily extendend to 4GPts.
One with the large memory which works like a continuous circular buffer and one with a short buffer (enough to fill the screen) to do high update rates. Once you press stop Keysight scopes wait until the rest of the large memory buffer is filled before allowing the user to scroll left / right. It is a very simple & elegant solution.
Actually that doesn't seem to be possible even from a theoretical point of view. If you're in normal trigger mode and press stop, there is usually no way to continue sampling from the trigger point unless pressing the button happens more or less at the same time as the last trigger event. E.g. assuming the current DOSX3000T Keysights have 4MPts for your hypothetical circular buffer: at 2.5GSa/s, it would be filled within 1.6ms. So if you stop the aquisition in normal trigger mode and the trigger event happened e.g. 10ms before, the circular buffer was filled again multiple times. Sorry, but this just doesn't seem to be a feasible approach.
Again, what you're suggesting is IMHO only possible in single trigger mode and looking into the DSOX3000T manual seems to confirm this. Quote from the manual: "Pressing [Single] instead of [Stop] fills the maximum memory depth". And I think that other scopes fill the whole selected ("maximum") memory in single trigger mode as well (if this is feasible).
Besides, even letting all of this aside, your suggested approach would not be "easily expandable" to any memory depth. As you say, the scope needs to fill the buffer before it lets you have a look, scroll around etc. Now with 4Gpts and a sample rate of 1MSa/s, it would take 4000 seconds to fill the buffer. That's more than an hour. Now with the 4Mpts of a current Keysight, that's not as much of an issue unless you select a 1kSa/s or so (if that's even possible). Actually I would think that a Keysight doesn't allow you to select an acquisition setup that would delay reaction to a key by even a few seconds. Yet with 200MPts of a Siglent SDS2000X Plus, it would take 200 seconds at 1MSa/s to fill the memory. That doesn't sound horribly feasible either. So it's natural that a scope tries to select either memory depth or sample rate to avoid getting locked or slow down to a crawl. Actually, of all scopes, LeCroys tend to allow you setting up acquisition modes that are terribly slow or only fill a part of the screen and Keysight adepts criticize them for exactly this lack of automatically selecting a setup that gives immediate feedback.
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Maybe I should activate this 27 times to know it - No.. ;)
No need to do this - the trial-counter decrease when you use the bode plot function, so I guess the option must be installed to use it as internal source.
Would be nice if siglent could do a fix in that case.
Apropos fixing…
You turn on the the bode plot and the awg will turn on too.
But if you disable bode plot, the awg remains to be on.
Clearly a bug.
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So if you stop the aquisition in normal trigger mode and the trigger event happened e.g. 10ms before, the circular buffer was filled again multiple times. Sorry, but this just doesn't seem to be a feasible approach.
You are overthinking it. The circular buffer runs continuously BUT like every scope Keysight uses double buffering! In your example the first buffer is stopped after a trigger event but the second buffer is not. The buffering is not stopped / started at every trigger event. Think about that for a while and you'll see that this works perfectly when using a parallel acquisition system. Remember: I have build such systems several times already using standard FPGAs. There is no need for a special ASIC.
Regarding the prefill time: that is why oscilloscopes have several selections so the user can select a memory depth which is most suitable for the task at hand. After all an oscilloscope is supposed to be a universal tool and some people may have a use to have 4Gpts being sampled at 1Ms/s. I switch between memory depth settings if necessary.
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Daniel Bogdanoff stated once that the MegaZoom scopes use something they call "ping pong" memory in normal trigger mode. This is why the memory is halved in normal trigger mode vs. single trigger mode - letting aside that the 4MPts are really all the memory there is, so without interleaving, you effectively only have 1MPts per channel in normal trigger mode and 2MPts in single trigger mode. Actually I'm unsure how the interleaving works exactly and there seem to be two MegaZoom ASICs in the DSOX3000, but for the moment I assume you get 1MPts per channel in normal trigger mode with all four channels enabled. Anyway, so much about the deep memory.
Now would this work without a specialized ASIC with onboard memory? Well, maybe it would in the meantime as the ASIC is old now and FPGAs improved over the years. But given that no FPGA scope has yet reached the overall speed (taking into account also decoding speed and responsiveness) of the MegaZoom scopes, this is just an assumption.
Anyway, the term "ping pong" is usually used for a linear double buffer, not for a circular one. Also the sampling doesn't continue for the same trigger, but the two buffers are used for distinct triggers. So the data of the first buffer is displayed on the screen and the 2nd buffer is used to serve the next trigger event. Again, this just shows that they sacrificed everything for fast update rates and short dead times. I just don't see the magic in this.
Now, is this the ultimate solution that would work just the same with 4GPts? No, of course it isn't and wouldn't. Even a double buffering approach means that you can't reuse the same buffer while it's still processed. If you need to fill a gigantic buffer, you can split it in half to double the update rate or in a hundred buffers, but the only benefit is the higher update rate and smaller dead time.
Anyway, even if the DOSX3000 scopes actually captures the whole 2MPts (interleaved) or 1Mpts (non-interleaved) , I wonder if this "more" is even worth discussing looking at the buffer sizes. If at all, the additional data capture seems be more of an artifact of the double buffer strategy (might simplify the buffer handling to use fixed sizes) and doesn't cause a significant performance hit (update/dead time wise) because the buffers are so small anyway.
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I don't think getting deep into the nitty-gritty of implementation details is very helpfull. And I disagree about responsiveness and decoding speed being unique to Keysight. There are many other scopes out there with fast decoding update speeds (R&S for example). Responsiveness of the user interface has nothing to do with acquisition hardware but everything with how the scheduling is done in the software.
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I don't think getting deep into the nitty-gritty of implementation details is very helpful.
It is as it helps us understand how each brand addresses their memory depth management and why they each have selected a particular scheme.
A facit that needs further discussion so to better understand Siglents implementation is their continuously running History buffer of some 200 MPts.
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I don't think getting deep into the nitty-gritty of implementation details is very helpful.
It is as it helps us understand how each brand addresses their memory depth management and why they each have selected a particular scheme.
But not up to the point where 'we' are about to write VHDL and C code.
A facit that needs further discussion so to better understand Siglents implementation is their continuously running History buffer of some 200 MPts.
I'm quite sure nobody cares about history mode because it basically is an acquisition mode without clearly defined boundaries. The way it sits now it is just filling memory which could be put to much better use. I have come across several DSOs which have history mode but (unlike segmented recording where you can set clear boundaries) I never really found a good use for history mode. Once you want to define boundaries (like the number of segments and length) you get into segmented recording mode territory immediately. R&S has both on the RTM3004 but history mode is basically segmented mode using a first-in first-out recording mode.
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Lecroy also relies on history mode and on the memorydepth management - I think, when having full memorydepth independend from timebase is an important thing, they would implement it.
But they don´t and I´m sure they could if they want, there must be a reason why some brands doing it and some brands don´t.
Wether they´re so called A-Brands or not.
They'd be fools to weaken themselves against the competition.
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I'm quite sure nobody cares about history mode because it basically is an acquisition mode without clearly defined boundaries.
:-//
You don't, you've already stated you don't care about wfps and hence blind time.....others do !
The age old discussion of DSO vs CRO has much to do about blind time of DSO's so why would a designer implement a memory management scheme where blind time could impact on scope usability ?
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Lecroy also relies on history mode and on the memorydepth management - I think, when having full memorydepth independend from timebase is an important thing, they would implement it.
But they don´t and I´m sure they could if they want, there must be a reason why some brands doing it and some brands don´t.
Wether they´re so called A-Brands or not.
They'd be fools to weaken themselves against the competition.
Let's put it this way: there are less brands which don't have recording outside the screen compared to brands who have. So far Lecroy and Siglent seem to be the only brands. Lecroy always has been a bit of an odd-ball brand; therefore Lecroy isn't the best benchmark when looking for industry standards. Lecroy doesn't have peak detect for example which also is a limiting factor. Don't ask me for the reason. It could be a limitation of their acquisition hardware in order to make it cheaper or a principle. Last week I had a junior engineer come to me complaining a 1PPS signal was intermittant. Turning on peak detect on the oscilloscope he used fixed that; the pulse was too narrow to show up on screen.
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I'm quite sure nobody cares about history mode because it basically is an acquisition mode without clearly defined boundaries.
:-//
You don't, you've already stated you don't care about wfps and hence blind time.....others do !
The age old discussion of DSO vs CRO has much to do about blind time of DSO's so why would a designer implement a memory management scheme where blind time could impact on scope usability ?
Now you are moving the goal posts trying to make it look like it is never good enough for me. People are smart enough to see through that. It has been pointed out many times before that modern triggering features (like zone triggering and runt triggering) are much more useful for catching rare events than just staring at a screen. Besides that allowing variable memory depth allows the user to select between long (partly off-screen) acquisitions or high waveform updates so if people feel inclined to stare at a screen then they can still do so. In my RTM3004 review I have already showed that deep memory combined with clever waveform display techniques can make a rare event stand out like a sore thumb even without resorting to specific triggers.
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There must be advantages and disadvantages given, when some makes it possible to use full memdepth over all and some don´t.
I did measurings since 17yrs at work, 5 days a week - Maybe the most of them wasn´t so complex, but surely above the needings for the most hobbyists.
In this time I never had the case that the way lecroy does it´s business won´t fulfill our needs.
Therefore I won´t blame the managing of the memory depth like siglent does as a true failure.
There must have been advantages and disadvantages to do so.
And we´re talking about 200Mpts memory maximum.
Have a look to a keysight DSOX2014a....
Costs more than double, having 100Kpts Memory.
Or tektronix TDS2014C....Costs over 3000 and have 2.5 kpts memory .
Or lecroy WS3014z..... 10Mpts Memory and costs 4486€....
So what we´re talking about…
Spin the time-wheel for saying 10yrs backwards...which memorydepth was possible...and how much did it costs…
How could engineers and technicians lives with it ?
Keeping this in mind for me the actually discussion is somekind of worthless.
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Somehow you managed to pick all the oscilloscopes with the least amount of memory in their price range. The Megazoom ASICs from Keysight date back to about 20 years ago and for the time they had superior memory depths. And there is a whole slew of scopes with deep memory nowadays: Tektronix TBS2000 series has 10Mpts per channel IIRC, R&S RTB2000 has 20Mpts, GW Instek GDS1000B and GDS2000E series have 10Mpts (20Mpts in segmented mode), Yokogawa DLM3000 series has 50Mpts in their base model (up to 500Mpts/channel), etc.
We are not living 10 years ago. We live now and large memory makes life easier. Acquire once and analyse is much quicker compared to acquiring multiple times and try to solve a puzzle from different measurements. Sure people managed to solve problems in the past too but at the expense of needing more time. And the latter is where my point is at: good tools save time and you should always be looking for better tools even if you are satisfied with the tools you have. You might stumble onto something which is better. I upgrade my equipment (which I need/use to make a living) all the time in order to work more efficiently.
Over the years I have owned several high-end logic analysers. The first one had 1kpts or 2kpts per channel and no 'compression' so it really needed carefully crafted trigger conditions and making screendumps to get a complete picture of a puzzle. The next one had 128kpts per channel. A huge improvement because it allowed making longer acquisitions and doing analysis on the signals where cause & effect where related. The next one has 32Mpts per channel and compression. I can capture several video frames of data to a TFT screen with 1ns resolution with it. Doing one capture gets me all the timing data I ever need to diagnose the interface.
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Somehow you managed to pick all the oscilloscopes with the least amount of memory in their price range.
Not somehow and you know it.
Remember the price of a SDS2104X Plus ?
Right, appx 1400€ incl. tax….
What do you get from the so called A-Brands for this money ?
And therefore again, what we´re talking about....
1400 might be very, very low cost, but for hobbyists, most of them, it would be a huge money to spend for.
When we discuss and compare, we always should compare in the pricerange it costs.
I grab the models which nearly came close to the specs of the new siglent.
You might working with "high end models", to having this point of view in general.
Again, what do you get from the A-Brands for 1400€ ?
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Well... R&S has the RTC1000 series and an RTB2002 is in a similar price bracket. Tektronix TBS2000 series is also very nice to use although no decoding. But Siglent isn't an A-brand so it would be comparing apples and oranges anyway. Other choices with mature firmware would be GW Instek or MicSig (I own scopes from the last two brands). I would take any of these over the SDS2000X just because of the automatic memory depth and clunky decoding.
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Well... R&S has the RTC1000 series and an RTB2002 is in a similar price bracket. Tektronix TBS2000 series is also very nice to use although no decoding.
RTB2000, 100Mhz, 4 channel will cost about double.
RTC series....got only 2 channels and small display, no comparison.
Tektronix TBS 2104( 4 channel , 100Mhz)...costs nearly double than the siglent (2200 against 1400) .
I can understand your intentions, but be aware of what we´re talking about.
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Again: you can't compare Siglent to A-brand pricing. For starters the service level of the A-brands is in a completely different league. If you want to compare the SDS2000X with A-brand prices then compare the price Lecroy asks for the SDS2000X with other A-brands.
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Acquire once and analyse is much quicker compared to acquiring multiple times and try to solve a puzzle from different measurements.
This is the core you hang on to and blow up into such a big issue. There may be some use cases where capturing data outside the screen in a single capture is useful while simultaneously seeing the smaller window in realtime, but it seems to be a very very niche application. Even when it is useful (which is not obvious to most users as exampled here) you insist that using a zoom window as the solution (which most scopes support for this use case) is somehow not usable at all.
You make it a noisy problem, the rest of us get on with life and work. Sure it might be really important to you, but that doesn't represent the market/users as a whole.
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I find myself using it more than you'd think(I also use auto which is enough to fill screen). It's really nice when using decoding and debugging issues in my real-time systems. I trigger where I suspect and also see everything else around it which USUALLY give me more hints without manually searching.
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Acquire once and analyse is much quicker compared to acquiring multiple times and try to solve a puzzle from different measurements.
This is the core you hang on to and blow up into such a big issue. There may be some use cases where capturing data outside the screen in a single capture is useful while simultaneously seeing the smaller window in realtime, but it seems to be a very very niche application.
It is certainly not a niche application; there are several others who agree with me. 'Recording outside the screen' is a huge productivity boost for debugging / verifying embedded / mixed signal systems where you usually have a screen crammed full with various signals. You may not see it as such but it is like using shoes with laces versus slippers if you have to walk in & out of the house all the time (without keeping shoes on inside the house). Actually the original SDS2000 had 'recording outside the screen' in the first firmware releases but it would not always retain this setting which was already a nuisance. When dealing with embedded systems there is a need to see what happened before or after whatever is on screen regulary.
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When dealing with embedded systems there is a need to see what happened before or after whatever is on screen regulary.
Also example I have needed this and many times. Some cases solved using always background working acquisition buffer (example serial bus messages) and some cases solved using normal zoom, example some circuit safe brown down sequence.
Also today possible to set trigger reference position to fixed memory position is some advantage least for me in these cases.
With full window zoom (usual DSO with long memory acq mode) can not see hidden parts what is some times poor but with Siglent you are forced to see both (why some peoples do not like see whole memory lenght in runtime is a complete mystery to me, except bit too small display area) , details in zoom window and you see also whole acquisition length and possible to see some useful there. Only disadvantage is with windowed zoom with full memory length display that display area in TFT is small if there is lot of traces. If there is more room for both windows, Siglent solution is imho supergood least for me.
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You should try the R&S then. It's even better(objectively)
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Acquire once and analyse is much quicker compared to acquiring multiple times and try to solve a puzzle from different measurements.
This is the core you hang on to and blow up into such a big issue. There may be some use cases where capturing data outside the screen in a single capture is useful while simultaneously seeing the smaller window in realtime, but it seems to be a very very niche application.
It is certainly not a niche application; there are several others who agree with me. 'Recording outside the screen' is a huge productivity boost for debugging / verifying embedded / mixed signal systems where you usually have a screen crammed full with various signals. You may not see it as such but it is like using shoes with laces versus slippers if you have to walk in & out of the house all the time (without keeping shoes on inside the house). Actually the original SDS2000 had 'recording outside the screen' in the first firmware releases but it would not always retain this setting which was already a nuisance. When dealing with embedded systems there is a need to see what happened before or after whatever is on screen regulary.
Way to chop out the quote just to perpetuate the noise...
Acquire once and analyse is much quicker compared to acquiring multiple times and try to solve a puzzle from different measurements.
This is the core you hang on to and blow up into such a big issue. There may be some use cases where capturing data outside the screen in a single capture is useful while simultaneously seeing the smaller window in realtime, but it seems to be a very very niche application. Even when it is useful (which is not obvious to most users as exampled here) you insist that using a zoom window as the solution (which most scopes support for this use case) is somehow not usable at all.
You can acquire once, using the zoom window or several other options.
- You like to have a narrow time slice on the screen in real time, and then jump back out to see the context around it. We get that.
- You could use the zoom window, and achieve the exact same thing but lose some vertical space while in realtime. Sees both the context and the fine detail simultaneously. When stopped you can close the zoom window and regain all the space again, no different to your memory outside the window approach once stopped.
- You could capture a wider acquisition and navigate down into once stopped.
You've yet to provide any specific examples where its useful to have a realtime view of a narrow time slice of many signals vertically and then once stopped move around the captured. Where both all the signals need to be visible vertically in the realtime and in a narrow window simultaneously, with the additional constraint that despite wanting realtime view you couldn't view this repetitive event and then take a single capture at a longer acquisition depth.
Either its repetitive and you can deal with spinning the horizontal control to go out to a wider view, or its not repetitive and the realtime view of the narrow segment is your imaginary hard requirement. Looking at a short time base to setup the details of a trigger is normal enough, but then its triggering and you don't need to inspect it any more, then move the acquisition window to capture what you're trying to observe.
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Well, yes. Well aware that there are ways to do what you need to with any tool. Just some tools are less cumbersome to use.
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Well, yes. Well aware that there are ways to do what you need to with any tool. Just some tools are less cumbersome to use.
Some people see the extension of memory around the visible window as cumbersome by lacking controls of its position and having to use menus to change memory depths manually, when compared to the other methods using auto/maximum memory depth. But I don't push the point endlessly and try to say everything should work the way I prefer.
What the SDS2000 Plus does have is the very practical history buffer (so much more useful than segmented capture modes that don't have a continuous ring buffer of captures) alone a reason to need some memory depth controls.
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Well, yes. Well aware that there are ways to do what you need to with any tool. Just some tools are less cumbersome to use.
Exactly!
You've yet to provide any specific examples where its useful to have a realtime view of a narrow time slice of many signals vertically and then once stopped move around the captured.
I have done that several times already. Just read. Sure you can make-do with work-around but why use a make-do solution if you can get something more productive? All the alternative ways you list mean doing more work. And there is no reason at all for Siglent not to implement recording beyond the screen. The original SDS2000 even had it!
Bottom line is I won't buy / recommend a scope which doesn't have recording beyond the screen because it is less productive. There is no agueing around that and for Siglent it means losing sales opportunities because they don't support all usage scenarios. It is simple like that.
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There is no agueing around that
Beacuse you say so... great explanation.
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Well, yes. Well aware that there are ways to do what you need to with any tool. Just some tools are less cumbersome to use.
Exactly! See my shoes versus slippers example. Sure you can make-do with work-around but why use a make-do solution if you can get something more productive? And there is no reason at all for Siglent not to implement recording beyond the screen. The original SDS2000 even had it !
When you work out why it was dropped then we'll all breathe easier. :phew:
Bottom line is I won't buy / recommend a scope which doesn't have recording beyond the screen because it is less productive. There is no agueing around that and for Siglent it means losing sales opportunities because they don't support all usage scenarios. It is simple like that.
I never did see Siglent marketing on your CV and there are no surprises why if you can't adapt to another DSO usage style or can't fully comprehend why this memory management scheme is employed.....that doesn't conform to your DSO usage style.
I'm quite sure nobody cares about history mode because it basically is an acquisition mode without clearly defined boundaries.
:-//
You don't, you've already stated you don't care about wfps and hence blind time.....others do !
The age old discussion of DSO vs CRO has much to do about blind time of DSO's so why would a designer implement a memory management scheme where blind time could impact on scope usability ?
Now you are moving the goal posts trying to make it look like it is never good enough for me.
Nope !
I thought you were smart enough to put 2+2 together but maybe not and you're just having your fun here :horse:
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Bottom line is I won't buy / recommend a scope which doesn't have recording beyond the screen because it is less productive. There is no agueing around that and for Siglent it means losing sales opportunities because they don't support all usage scenarios. It is simple like that.
I never did see Siglent marketing on your CV
Read more careful then. I get involved in buying test equipment purchase decissions at customers regulary. It would be nice to have some lower cost options for osciloscopes on my list.
and there are no surprises why if you can't adapt to another DSO usage style or can't fully comprehend why this memory management scheme is employed.....that doesn't conform to your DSO usage style.
Read more careful then. Several others already agreed with me and I can comprehend just fine based on my experience with many different oscilloscopes I have owned and/or used. It is more likely the other way around; you can't comprehend the importance of having productive tools. Why adapt to a more cumbersome usage style? That is making-do which takes more time to get a task finished. I get that in your world Siglent is the greatest but I have a much broader horizon. What counts for me is productivity. Time is money so if a cheaper tool is slower to use it is more expensive in the long run.
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Bottom line is I won't buy / recommend a scope which doesn't have recording beyond the screen because it is less productive. There is no agueing around that and for Siglent it means losing sales opportunities because they don't support all usage scenarios. It is simple like that.
I never did see Siglent marketing on your CV
Read more careful then. I get involved in buying test equipment purchase decissions at customers regulary. It would be nice to have some lower cost options for osciloscopes on my list.
and there are no surprises why if you can't adapt to another DSO usage style or can't fully comprehend why this memory management scheme is employed.....that doesn't conform to your DSO usage style.
Read more careful then. Several others already agreed with me and I can comprehend just fine based on my experience with many different oscilloscopes I have owned and/or used. It is more likely the other way around; you can't comprehend the importance of having productive tools. Why adapt to a more cumbersome usage style? That is making-do which takes more time to get a task finished. I get that in your world Siglent is the greatest but I have a much broader horizon. What counts for me is productivity. Time is money so if a cheaper tool is slower to use it is more expensive in the long run.
I have difficulties to understand why it is better when user see less at runtime.
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One example: a while ago I had to debug a SoC design and wanted to check the CPU's core voltage because every now and then it would crash. For that I wanted to see what happened to the core voltage when it is switched. One channel on the signal to the regulator and one on the core voltage. Trigger set to the control signal and go. No idea on what timescale the event is taking place. Turned out that I choose the time/div too short so I couldn't see the entire event where the supply voltage dropped for a while. Since the oscilloscope I used (RTM3004) was on maximum memory depth I could simply turn the time/div / horizontal position knobs to get more signal. From that single capture I had all the information needed to see what the exact problem was even though I had no idea about what I was going to look for. Recapturing the event on a different time/div setting would have meant waiting for another crash to happen.
Another example: every now and then there is a problem with an I2C message. In order to see whether a message is correct or not you need to see the part which goes wrong. Once the message is captured turning the time/div / horizontal position knobs can be used to check what happened leading up to the event. Again, it is unknown on what timescale the event is taking place so more memory is better because recapturing the event isn't easy.
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Bottom line is I won't buy / recommend a scope which doesn't have recording beyond the screen because it is less productive. There is no agueing around that and for Siglent it means losing sales opportunities because they don't support all usage scenarios. It is simple like that.
I never did see Siglent marketing on your CV
Read more careful then. I get involved in buying test equipment purchase decissions at customers regulary. It would be nice to have some lower cost options for osciloscopes on my list.
Welcome to my world. You still have some learning to do.
and there are no surprises why if you can't adapt to another DSO usage style or can't fully comprehend why this memory management scheme is employed.....that doesn't conform to your DSO usage style.
Read more careful then. Several others already agreed with me and I can comprehend just fine based on my experience with many different oscilloscopes I have owned and/or used. It is more likely the other way around; you can't comprehend the importance of having productive tools. Why adapt to a more cumbersome usage style? That is making-do which takes more time to get a task finished. I get that in your world Siglent is the greatest but I have a much broader horizon. What counts for me is productivity. Time is money so if a cheaper tool is slower to use it is more expensive in the long run.
Really ? :-//
Having owned a good few scopes before I got involved with Siglent, this I do understand and adaption to each of their capabilities was paramount to productivity yet none had the power and capability of even a $499 4ch Siglent X-E.
One example: a while ago I had to debug a SoC design and wanted to check the CPU's core voltage because every now and then it would crash. For that I wanted to see what happened to the core voltage when it is switched. One channel on the signal to the regulator and one on the core voltage. Trigger set to the control signal and go. No idea on what timescale the event is taking place. Turned out that I choose the time/div too short so I couldn't see the entire event where the supply voltage dropped for a while. Since the oscilloscope I used (RTM3004) was on maximum memory depth I could simply turn the time/div / horizontal position knobs to get more signal. From that single capture I had all the information needed to see what the exact problem was even though I had no idea about what I was going to look for. Recapturing the event on a different time/div setting would have meant waiting for another crash to happen.
Another example: every now and then there is a problem with an I2C message. In order to see whether a message is correct or not you need to see the part which goes wrong. Once the message is captured turning the time/div / horizontal position knobs can be used to check what happened leading up to the event. Again, it is unknown on what timescale the event is taking place so more memory is better because recapturing the event isn't easy.
:-DD :clap: :blah:
:wtf: we're back in the beginners forum !
Actually quite amazing you could see all that past that glossy display.
^ This is the real power of a DSO, the ability to capture events.......oh hang on, fingers weren't connected to the bit between ears so to make good setup decisions while setting up for a single shot......no matter as Siglents History can come to your rescue. A single press of the History button is more productive than the twiddling of knobs you hate so much.
But hey, maybe a $350 DSO can better suit your needs for piss simple requirements. :-\
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The discussion has been pretty civil up to now. Unfortunately it seems this is about to change. I'll find my way out, thank you.
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Nevertheless, we should going back to topic and discuss the memory thing somewhere else.
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Getting back into topic...
About all those conditional BW upgrades, one thing seems clear: it's possible to upgrade a SDS2104X+ to 350MHz. :popcorn:
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it's possible to upgrade a SDS2104X+ to 350MHz
And I have to thank you for making it possible :) :-+
Martin
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Martin, it's time for a BW sweep and to see how it behaves.
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Don´t have a generator with such a high frequency - Only the Leo pulse gen and then calculate the BW... :(
Edit: Picture enclosed
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OK, then lower timescale (just on the rising) and do some averaging.
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OK, "tomorrow"... ;)
Another thing:
My siglent seems to be much noiseless as my former rigol 5074.
Apart from this, it shows no bandwith-limiting in the lower voltage ranges…
From 2mV on (till 500µV) rigol shows a "B" for bandwith-limited in this ranges.
Could this be real, no bandwith-limiting in that ranges ?
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Could this be real, no bandwidth-limiting in that ranges ?
Apparently so, no mention of auto BW limiting in the user manual or datasheet.
Only user selection of 20 or 200 MHz.
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I will test again the ripple-noise of one of my linear power supplies, like I did with the rigol (and was a little bit disappointing about the noise- The first step I want to change the scope).
Apart from the "unholy" memory discussion, actual it´s a very nice scope for me.
The menu structure, the fast responsive of nearly everything are really impressive.
The rubber-coated handle....nice ;D
More or less silent noiselevel (fan).
Actually, it´s a fine thing.
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Getting back into topic...
About all those conditional BW upgrades, one thing seems clear: it's possible to upgrade a SDS2104X+ to 350MHz. :popcorn:
And you stopped at 350 MHz ? :-// :P
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Hey, don´t blame him - I now have a 350Mhz scope for 1400 bucks…. ;D
(joking, big thanks to tv84 for his contributing)
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Hey, don´t blame him - I now have a 350Mhz scope for 1400 bucks…. ;D
(joking, big thanks to tv84 for his contributing)
What did the scope do when you tried for 500Mhz???
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Don´t have a generator with such a high frequency - Only the Leo pulse gen and then calculate the BW... :(
Edit: Picture enclosed
So either it does the math for the rise time on the actual display pixels (i.e. there is error since the time base is too large) or you are running at 500Mhz...
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Don´t have a generator with such a high frequency - Only the Leo pulse gen and then calculate the BW... :(
Edit: Picture enclosed
So either it does the math for the rise time on the actual display pixels (i.e. there is error since the time base is too large) or you are running at 500Mhz...
Just be aware that risetime doesn't always give the right bandwidth! It highly depends on what kind of anti-aliasing filter is used. For some scopes you'll need to use .4 or .45 as the constant. The only way to be 100% sure is to use a (levelled) frequency generator.
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OK, "tomorrow"... ;)
Another thing:
My siglent seems to be much noiseless as my former rigol 5074.
Apart from this, it shows no bandwith-limiting in the lower voltage ranges…
From 2mV on (till 500µV) rigol shows a "B" for bandwith-limited in this ranges.
Could this be real, no bandwith-limiting in that ranges ?
In datasheet first introduction pages there it is told indirectly.
Noise level 80uVrms @500MHz bandwidth and it read in image where is used 500uV/div
It is bit unbelievable but it was unbelievable also in SDS1204X-E for 200MHz BW and it is enough reliable ways confirmed truth, it is full BW.
Also 500uV/div have not any side notes in datasheet.
It need note that Siglent 10-90 risetime with 500MHz is specified 0.8ns in datasheet (in many 500MHz scopes it is calculated value as 0.7ns).
Because freq response is not (gaussian) what typically was when Tek define 350/risetime ns = BW MHz thumb rule.
Of course different BW shape give different risetime even if -3dB point freq is same. Depending BW shape it may vary lot of. It is well explained in some Agilent/Keysight and also others appnotes.
Only true semigood method is leveled sine wave generator what levels it in scope input connector. Next method is normal good quality RF gnerator whet level is known in its output port and as good signal pathway to scope input as possible due to more or less impedance mismatch. Better method is...handfull of expensive things and... oh... but who cares. This is oscilloscope what pure sinewave BW we do not need know with high rocket science accuracy.
Your risetime image tell it simply. We can now say it is 350MHz scope without a doubt. :-+
If compare 500uV/div range in SDS2000XPlus to SDS5000X, it loks like different. SDS5kX datasheet tell it, 350MHz model 500uV/div is limited to 200MHz
"Below 1 mV/div (included) the bandwidth is limited to 200 MHz"
And more, other SDS5kX models
"Below 2.45 mV/div (included) the bandwidth is limited to 200 MHz"
SDS2kXPlus datasheet do not tell half word about any exceptions with 500uV/div range.
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Getting back into topic...
About all those conditional BW upgrades, one thing seems clear: it's possible to upgrade a SDS2104X+ to 350MHz. :popcorn:
Is the two-channel version fully unlockable too?
I'm waiting the answer to buy a new oscilloscope. I've almost bought Rigol MSO5074, but the SDS2102x Plus is much better seems.
Please, point me to the unlock instruction.
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Don´t have a generator with such a high frequency - Only the Leo pulse gen and then calculate the BW... :(
Edit: Picture enclosed
So either it does the math for the rise time on the actual display pixels (i.e. there is error since the time base is too large) or you are running at 500Mhz...
Siglent all new scopes after SDS1000X-E (including) do not measure calculate anything based display pixels, not even older what have intermediate buffer between image map and capture memory except very old siglent early phase first generation models aka ADS7000 or bit later SDS1000CM etrc.
It use always full sample resolution acquisition memory, it is not from museum.
Fast timebases it also can use interpolation between true sample points. So it do not matter what timebase there is used in this case. Even if he use 1ms/div and look measurement statistics average after long time he get quite right number even when there it perhaps do not use interpolation between true samples.
If look only true sample interval alone what is 500ps in this case it is not enough for single shot measure this kind of risetime. But there is statistics, measurements average for repeating acquisitions with continuous waveforms.
Even extremely poor accuracy need 1.2 / 1.5 samples for edge under measurement. Poor accurcy can get with 1.75 sample for edge and some kind of medium accuracy using 3.5 samples for edge. Good accuracy can reach with 5 samples for edge... if all other things are not limiting accuracy. This is common rule, not related to any manufacturer.
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And you stopped at 350 MHz ? :-// :P
If I say yes, you believe me? :D
Tried but saw no model change so concluded as not effective. Didn't dedicate much time.
So, after we have the current 2354X+ envelope fully characterized, I think we can try again a 500 MHz scenario (if needed). I don't know if there is any "SDS2504X+" model string and if, as it is, it's already a 500MHz scope. :popcorn:
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And you stopped at 350 MHz ? :-// :P
If I say yes, you believe me? :D
Tried but saw no model change so concluded as not effective. Didn't dedicate much time.
So, after we have the current 2354X+ envelope fully characterized, I think we can try again a 500 MHz scenario (if needed). I don't know if there is any "SDS2504X+" model string and if, as it is, it's already a 500MHz scope. :popcorn:
:)
This is the official 500 MHz option: SDS2000XP-4BW05 :popcorn:
https://siglentna.com/product/bandwidth-upgrade-350-to-500-mhz-4-channel-models-2/
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This is the official 500 MHz option: SDS2000XP-4BW05 :popcorn:
Sure, but where can you show me a "SDS2504X+" label?
Maybe after inserting that lic, the model string continues as a "SDS2354X+". As if Siglent wasn't thinking in achieving the 500MHz model as default.
What I mean is: you can buy a SDS5104X but you can't buy a SDS2504X+... ;)
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If I say yes, you believe me? :D
Tried but saw no model change so concluded as not effective. Didn't dedicate much time.
Please give me a hint on the unlock procedure! :)
I can't wait to buy a new scope! :-BROKE
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Please give me a hint on the unlock procedure! :)
This is a PoC. No public release for now.
This is the official 500 MHz option: SDS2000XP-4BW05 :popcorn:
Wait for Martin's new info... :popcorn:
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Hi,
I think we got the 500Mhz License installed.
Have a look at the pics below, if ONE channel is active, rise time will be appx 797ps - If you activate it´s neighbour, risetime increase to appx. 1.2ns and in both channels pops an "A" up.
Looking at the user manual, what does "A" means - Aha.... 8)
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Looking at the user manual, what does "A" means - Aha.... 8)
Nice find!
So, the scope is working at 500 MHz mode and its model name is still "SDS2354X+". 8)
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The menu structure, the fast responsive of nearly everything are really impressive.
The rubber-coated handle....nice ;D
Actually, it´s a fine thing.
And the thin case and the non-toy-like structure on the frontpanel, everything is clear to see/easy to find.
I like it.
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Very interesting discussion here chaps, which essentially has boiled down is tier 2 level equipment cap[able of holding at least some of its own against the more established big four?
I have tried Siglent scopes and find very capable items at hobbist prices as per Rigol at the difference feature /price points.
When looking for new R&D scope recently we sampled the R&S RTB2000 series, Keysight InfiniiVision 6000 X-Series, Le-Croy WaveRunner 8000HD and the Tektronix 6 series
All very good scopes, excellent resolution, BW aplenty, up to 16 Bits resolution, large 12.1"+ screen sizes, accuracy plenty of dedicated apps (relevant ones) expandable memory segmented and other wise windows options and a plethora of probes upto £8K.
We did spent a good amount to time with each unit: make no mistake all these scopes are genuine R&D lab worth devices unquestionably.
The R&S I just didn't get on with, a personal no likie of the GUI, performance wise I felt it was joint 2nd of the group with the Keysight, the Lecroy I felt had the best jitter measurement suit and offered a greater insight in that area, not by much, for us it quirky-ness did sit well with the staff, though no doubt its a damn fine scope. Other may well find a different result.
For ourselves the Tek Mso64 gave our requirements the best spread of performance, apps and resolution and the GUI is very intuitive, all of these scopes with our requirements (including probes and apps) were are north of £50K + vat.
This is a matter of user preference which I feel is what we are boiling down to.
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Looking at the user manual, what does "A" means - Aha.... 8)
Nice find!
So, the scope is working at 500 MHz mode and its model name is still "SDS2354X+". 8)
Hahaha... there is not software switch what swap model number between SDS2354X+ and SDS2502X+ :-DD
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Hahaha... there is not software switch what swap model number between SDS2354X+ and SDS2502X+ :-DD
And, in logical terms, I would say that we can take a "SDS2102X+" to "SDS2501X+" terrain...
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I've been following this thread for a bit. I'm an embedded systems engineer and I'm looking for a DSO that I can use for working from home/for personal projects. I've been looking at both the SDS2104X+ and the MSO5074 as they're both within my budget and unlockable. I've heard a lot of complaints about Rigol's firmware bugs and crappy UI. Would the Siglent be a better choice? How would you rate the interface? The touchscreen seems like a great addition.
Thanks.
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Hi,
I´ve owned a 5074 for a year, so I can compare it with my new siglent.
But first of all:
The bugs the rigol got, aren´t so dramatically as they seem reading the posts.
You could work with it.
Rigol vs Siglent…
Rigol got lots of math functions and 4 math traces at same time displaying is possible. 8GSa/s vs the 2GSa/s the siglent got.
Both of them got 200Mpts Memory(when the rigol was unlocked), rigol got an HDMI Output, the siglent doesn´t have, even no VGA.
But this is unimportant, IMHO..
Because now to the Pros of the siglent.
Bigger screen, significant brighter and clearer. Touchpanel is significant faster what response concerns and seems to me more precisely.
Generally, the performance seems for me to be faster.
The menu structures are more clearer and understandable, 50Ohm Inputs, significant less noise in mV ranges (will test it), Eres function and finally it looks (and feels) more "adulter" to me.
But you will pay 500 bucks more for this puppy, so it should be "more" too...
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Admittedly, I'm a bit tempted to get one. I always dreamt about my next scope being in the 1GHz and >= 8GSa/s range but to be completely honest, where my current HMO2024 lacks the most is memory depth, screen size and lack of touch functionality (I'm using touchscreen Lecroys at work for >10years). So the SDS2104X+ "upgraded" to 500MHz would be still a big improvement in almost every possible aspect. And the cheapest 4ch SDS5000X is 2k€ more expensive which is just a bit too much to justify for me at this point. Hm, I wonder if Batronix offers the "embedded world" discount again this year.
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Here is an example why I like the eres function.
And it´s an example that having "tons" of memorypoints are not in every case a advantage.
Feeding in a 400hz sinewave with less Amplitude to get noisefloor, the right thing for the eres function, see below.
Before the pic was taken, I was confused about the behaviour.
Extreme slowing down, reactions last for seconds, the eres function looked worser than the original signal - what is happen ?
Answer: full memorydepth of 200Mpts...
Reduced this to 200K, signal becomes the shape I expected and reactions of the system are in normal manner.
A little hint for siglent : Like to have the actual math function displayed, in this case F1 eres…
Martin
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Note that on other scopes Eres filtering is typically done in hardware (and not as a math function) so there is no slowdown even with deep memory enabled. Instead of Eres in software a user settable filter function would be much more usefull. GW Instek (for example) went this route. There is no Eres in hardware but instead there is signal filtering (low/high/band pass) which is actually more usefull to get rid of unwanted frequency components.
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Noticed. ;)
I´ve survived the last 20yrs with software filtering, it wouldn´t kill me anymore.
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And, in logical terms, I would say that we can take a "SDS2102X+" to "SDS2501X+" terrain...
Is there 2 to 4 channel update options in the SCPI memdump?
There is no official 2ch to 4ch upgrade, but it could be something like this:
SDS2000XP-4CH01
SDS2000XP-CH401
SDS2000XP-2CH01
SDS2000XP-2C401
SDS2000XP-24C01
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This is a PoC. No public release for now.
Have you been able to unlock all of the protocol decoders as well?
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here is no official 2ch to 4ch upgrade
Makes sense, the only upgrade is to buy a 4-ch version
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This is a PoC. No public release for now.
Have you been able to unlock all of the protocol decoders as well?
Apparently so:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=914688)
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here is no official 2ch to 4ch upgrade
Makes sense, the only upgrade is to buy a 4-ch version
It's a shame, official site shows 350 4ch model picture for the sds2102x+! :-DD |O :-BROKE
https://www.siglent.eu/product/1176068/siglent-sds2102x-plus-2ch-100mhz-2gsa-s-oscilloscope (https://www.siglent.eu/product/1176068/siglent-sds2102x-plus-2ch-100mhz-2gsa-s-oscilloscope)
I'll better buy Rigol MSO5074. :-//
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It will be worth it´s money, I know this. ;)
Finally, some pics - Wavefrom update rate I couldn´t measure at home.
Pics showing:
Intensity grade, minimum
Intensity grade, maximum
Same, but coloured, minimum
Coloured, maximum
Display menu, I like the the backlight control..
FFT, "speed" is as fast or slow as by the rigol 5074
FFT, full screen
8Bit resolution
10Bit Resolution
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Note that on other scopes Eres filtering is typically done in hardware (and not as a math function)
This is incorrect.
ERES (which is *not* the same as HiRes on other scopes [1] and which has only been available from LeCroy and for a short while now also from Siglent) has always been a software-based math function, and this for more than a quarter of a century (the only exception being early Siglent scopes like SDS2000 and subsequent scopes right up to the SDS5kX, although I'm not sure in all cases it's really true ERES, and in case of the SDS5000X it appears ERES will soon become a math mode there).
HiRes on the other hand is usually implemented as acquisition mode, although usually also in software.
I'm just following the forum occasionally but there seems to be an increasing tendency to call HiRes modes "ERES", which is not correct.
[1] https://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires (https://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires)
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ERES "mode" bandwidth is 100MHz, according to the Siglent data sheet. So, quite a penalty at least for the higher spec'd versions. On the 100MHz version it would not really matter, I guess.
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It's a shame, official site shows 350 4ch model picture for the sds2102x+! :-DD |O :-BROKE
siglent.eu is NOT the official site! It's a distributor. The official site is https://www.siglenteu.com/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/)
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Note that on other scopes Eres filtering is typically done in hardware (and not as a math function)
This is incorrect.
ERES (which is *not* the same as HiRes on other scopes [1] and which has only been available from LeCroy and for a short while now also from Siglent) has always been a software-based math function, and this for more than a quarter of a century (the only exception being early Siglent scopes like SDS2000 and subsequent scopes right up to the SDS5kX, although I'm not sure in all cases it's really true ERES, and in case of the SDS5000X it appears ERES will soon become a math mode there).
HiRes on the other hand is usually implemented as acquisition mode, although usually also in software.
I'm just following the forum occasionally but there seems to be an increasing tendency to call HiRes modes "ERES", which is not correct.
[1] https://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires (https://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires)
In the end the effect is the same. The upside of doing hires/eres in a math trace is that it can be done using cheaper acquisition hardware and you get to keep the original samples (which can be useful for other purposes). The downside of doing filtering in software is decreased performance. The whole point of hires mode is to do filtering inside the acquisition hardware to get extra bits and/or less noise without taking a performance hit.
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This Siglent got it both, Hi-Res and Eres, it´s up to you what to use in specific cases.
By our new Lecroy 12bit scope, Eres hasn´t such a effect like on 8bit scopes.
ERES "mode" bandwidth is 100MHz, according to the Siglent data sheet. So, quite a penalty at least for the higher spec'd versions. On the 100MHz version it would not really matter, I guess.
Like all filters, whether they´re hardware- or software based you got bandwith limitations.
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This Siglent got it both, Hi-Res and Eres, it´s up to you what to use in specific cases.
In that case I'd assume Hi-res doesn't give you much of a performance penalty.
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ERES (which is *not* the same as HiRes on other scopes [1] and which has only been available from LeCroy and for a short while now also from Siglent) has always been a software-based math function, and this for more than a quarter of a century (the only exception being early Siglent scopes like SDS2000 and subsequent scopes right up to the SDS5kX, although I'm not sure in all cases it's really true ERES, and in case of the SDS5000X it appears ERES will soon become a math mode there).
HiRes on the other hand is usually implemented as acquisition mode, although usually also in software.
I'm just following the forum occasionally but there seems to be an increasing tendency to call HiRes modes "ERES", which is not correct.
[1] https://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires (https://teledynelecroy.com/doc/differences-between-eres-and-hires)
In the end the effect is the same.
No, the point is that it's *not* the same. ERES has certain advantages over which may or may not be of interest to you, but if they are then HiRes simply isn't good enough.
The upside of doing hires/eres in a math trace is that it can be done using cheaper acquisition hardware and you get to keep the original samples (which can be useful for other purposes).
There is a reason why LeCroy hasn't followed others in implementing some HiRes mode as acquisition mode (aside from the general advantages of ERES itself), which is that by implementing it as a math mode the original sample data is still available. HiRes however, as an acquisition mode as implemented in most other scopes, is a destructive function, i.e. the original sampling data is lost.
Also, ERES as math mode makes it possible to use something else as the input channel (e.g. another math trace) as an input for ERES.
The downside of doing filtering in software is decreased performance.
I'm not sure what your point is. ERES is a software function but it runs on a general purpose processor (68k on the 9300 Series, PPC in LC/WRLT/WR2LT/WP900, x86 and X64 in X-Stream scopes) which didn't exactly struggle to perform these operations at a reasonable performance. Putting ERES in hardware may or may not make sense for an entry-level scope (it doesn't for mid-range and high-end scopes), but this would also increase costs when COTS processors these days offer plenty of performance. Depending how it's implemented, hardware ERES might also prevent its use with input data from something else as an analog channel.
HiRes is easy to implement because it's doesn't need a lot of processing resources, simply because it's such a simple mode. Which makes it faster, but again it doesn't deliver the same as ERES, so the speed comes at a trade-off.
The whole point of hires mode is to do filtering inside the acquisition hardware to get extra bits and/or less noise without taking a performance hit.
If that's all you want, fine, then go and buy one of the many scopes on the market which offer the common HiRes acquisition mode. There are plenty of models on the market.
But there's a reason why LeCroy has been and still is the number one when it comes to analysis scopes, and there is a solid demand for scopes which go beyond what other scopes offer. Siglent has obviously decided it makes sense to try to offer some similar capabilities in its new upper entry level scope instead of copying what everyone else is doing, which I find laudable. And even though the SDS2000X+ isn't a class of scope we normally buy, I can immediately think of a range of people I know which would love functionality like this and who don't need the large bandwidths (or the price tag) of a LeCroy scope.
And after reading the article I'm not sure whether the Lecroy method is mathematically correct from a signal processing perspective. If you are going to filter sharp edges you are supposed to get overshoots because you are filtering away extra harmonics. Hiding these is creating a false image.
The article is admittedly not an in-depth description, but I can assure you the theory behind ERES is sound.
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And even though the SDS2000X+ isn't a class of scope we normally buy, I can immediately think of a range of people I know which would love functionality like this and who don't need the large bandwidths (or the price tag) of a LeCroy scope.
I´m seriously thinking about to recommend it for our testdepartment.
Four channels is a must have, therefore it must be the 2104.
But 100Mhz are more than enough for the use in our testfield ( we are in power supply solutions ).
Options like FG or power analyzer we don´t need, we have FGs and power analyzing is only for our developement necessary - And we got some lecroys to do this.
The specs are remarkable for a 1400 bucks scope (like the timebase accuracy of 1ppm), it got gate-measuring ( we use this in our factory acceptance tests), it´s easy to handle..
So why not buying a couple of it.
For my private use it´s more than enough and in some cases "better" as my former scope.
Good thing for a good price.
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But there's a reason why LeCroy has been and still is the number one when it comes to analysis scopes, and there is a solid demand for scopes which go beyond what other scopes offer. Siglent has obviously decided it makes sense to try to offer some similar capabilities in its new upper entry level scope instead of copying what everyone else is doing, which I find laudable. And even though the SDS2000X+ isn't a class of scope we normally buy, I can immediately think of a range of people I know which would love functionality like this and who don't need the large bandwidths (or the price tag) of a LeCroy scope.
Still this would target a niche market. Not sure if that is the right target for Siglent right now. The general purpose bench oscilloscope market is much more interesting if you can compete on price while offering the same features. Siglent has improved a lot over the last couple of years but IMHO they need to look beyond Lecroy's features (and limitations!) and have at least the same basic feature set the competition offers (simple things like allowing to use all the memory without needing to jump through hoops for example). Otherwise Rigol may catch up in a couple of years.
Some of the engineers I have spoken to agree that Lecroy has some unique analysis features but if the competition would provide something similar they'd swap the Lecroy scopes in a heartbeat. That is not a good position to be in as a manufacturer. Recently I acquired a Lecroy Wavepro 7200A 7300A with tons of options but I wouldn't want to use this as a general purpose bench scope. It has so many features and options that it is getting cumbersome to setup for simple tasks. For example filtering; in some cases the filter doesn't even result in a filtered signal because the settings make the filter unstable. It really is geared towards analysis applications (besides showing a wiggly line). But maybe the new UI has been improved; I have not tried that.
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The way siglent adapts due to their cooperation some of the lecroy specials is not the badest one.
Actually there are only three leaders what scope buildings concerns and this for decades.
Keysight (Agilent, HP), tektronix and lecroy.
Everyone has it´s pros and cons and it´s up to you, which you choose for your works.
NONE of the three produced worthless things.
From the upcoming brands, I see siglent and rigol in front.
Good for the hobbyists, good for all.
But maybe the new UI has been improved; I have not tried that.
I do.
There is always a chance to loan a scope, try an actual waverunner or above.
But apart from that, really apart...
What´s the topic ?
Right, a new scope from siglent.
Not from lecroy, keysight, tektronix.
Not a scope which costs 5000 bucks or above.
We´re talking about scopes affordable for hobbyists.
Getting a scope from rigol or siglent it is a chance for not getting crap at all.
None would seriously compare them to the big three their models which was really builded from them.
Or as we in Germany say, you have to leave the church in the village... ;)
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This Siglent got it both, Hi-Res and Eres, it´s up to you what to use in specific cases.
By our new Lecroy 12bit scope, Eres hasn´t such a effect like on 8bit scopes.
ERES 10bit "mode" bandwidth is 100MHz, according to the Siglent data sheet. So, quite a penalty at least for the higher spec'd versions. On the 100MHz version it would not really matter, I guess.
Like all filters, whether they´re hardware- or software based you got bandwith limitations.
Mr W posted a polite clarification, but you both keep repeating the opposite. The Siglent SDS2000X Plus has a 10bit "high resolution" acquisition mode that reduces the input bandwidth to 100MHz, and in addition it has a math filter (ERES) with preset cutoff rates relative to the current sampling rate.
There are more limitations than just the bandwidth, different filtering methods/types can have other effects on the resulting waveform as noted in that Lecroy document (the filter in the Siglent ERES may well be different to the one in Lecroy ERES). Conversely the fixed steps of the FIR ERES filter may not be as convenient as a variable cutoff frequency. Some other scopes don't increase the bit depth in high resolution mode, they just use it to reduce noise and still store 8 bit data, so the Siglent is a step up there.
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We´re talking about scopes affordable for hobbyists.
Getting a scope from rigol or siglent it is a chance for not getting crap at all.
Be careful. Tautech is going to kill you for stating Siglent equipment is for hobbyists only! >:D
Besides that Rigol and Siglent aren't the only choices; there are other Asian brands which sell good equipment with solid firmware.
If you look at Siglent's pricing (without hacking) they are obviously targetting the professional market because that is where the big money is. IMHO Siglent equipment is already a good alternative when it comes to spectrum analysers and function generators (although some series are better than others). Oscilloscopes are obviously more complex but Siglent is really close to getting out of oscilloscope's 'little league' as well. They just need a push in the right direction to get into the major league.
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Siglent equipment is for hobbyists only!
It´s the truth and tautech should/will be know it... ;)
Actually I see only siglent on it´s way to be a professional, rigol got it´s chance with the incredible DS1054Z.
The mso5000 series is incredible also when you took it´s basic model and hacking it.
But take note of their official prices, up to 5000 bucks, up to 10000 or more what 7000/8000 concerns.
It makes me laugh…
Siglent choose to hang on one of the global players and with it they´re right.
Actually I can´t find anything on this model who will let me say don´t buy this !
But I could find things who are yelling buy me !!! ;)
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Siglent equipment is for hobbyists only!
It´s the truth and tautech should/will be know it... ;)
Don't bring me into this as I had zip zero nada input into SDS2kX+ !
Following the SDS5000X series the only surprize was the shared vertical controls of SDS2kX+ whereas earlier SDS2kX had individual controls. The UI now mimics SDS5kX yet apparently there are some SDS2kX+ features to be ported into the SDS5kX UI.
Much of Siglents progress has come from their willingness to receive quality input from here on the forum but mostly from their worldwide team of beta testers sharing their experience of decades working with all manner of other brands in a professional environment. Some have even contributed to the HW design and then gone on to help maximise its capability.
A very big thanks to you guys......yes some of them are watching. :clap:
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Hello,
This new oscope seems very promising ...
With the hack done, a real (only) competitor for the MSO5000 at this price tag.
Does anybody know if Dave planed a review for soon ?
That would be great to have it's expertise and see real use case.
Martin, could you try FFT in 10 bits mode, to see if noise floor is improved ?
FFT usage on scope is often limited by real input dynamic range.
Regards.
Frex
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This Siglent got it both, Hi-Res and Eres, it´s up to you what to use in specific cases.
By our new Lecroy 12bit scope, Eres hasn´t such a effect like on 8bit scopes.
ERES 10bit "mode" bandwidth is 100MHz, according to the Siglent data sheet. So, quite a penalty at least for the higher spec'd versions. On the 100MHz version it would not really matter, I guess.
Like all filters, whether they´re hardware- or software based you got bandwith limitations.
Mr W posted a polite clarification, but you both keep repeating the opposite. The Siglent SDS2000X Plus has a 10bit "high resolution" acquisition mode that reduces the input bandwidth to 100MHz, and in addition it has a math filter (ERES) with preset cutoff rates relative to the current sampling rate.
There are more limitations than just the bandwidth, different filtering methods/types can have other effects on the resulting waveform as noted in that Lecroy document (the filter in the Siglent ERES may well be different to the one in Lecroy ERES). Conversely the fixed steps of the FIR ERES filter may not be as convenient as a variable cutoff frequency. Some other scopes don't increase the bit depth in high resolution mode, they just use it to reduce noise and still store 8 bit data, so the Siglent is a step up there.
Ah, right! I goofed! I mistook 10bit mode for ERES in the datasheet. I read the document Wuerstchenhund pointed out and saw the table regarding the -3dB point referenced to Nyquist frequency for different amounts of bits gained and when I read through the datasheet, I found the 100MHz mentioned. I guess my brain wasn't really engaged that his point.
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Actually there are only three leaders what scope buildings concerns and this for decades.
Keysight (Agilent, HP), tektronix and lecroy.
Well, you are leaving Iwatsu (also rebadged by Lecroy) and Yokogawa out. Both are very respectable A-brands too.
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Hi,
I take a scope at home, so I can measure the waveformupdates.
Triggeroutput to a channel of the other scope.
What else must I obay, because the update-ratings are far away from the disclaimed 120,000....
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Be aware that it the update rate only meets the specs for point mode (neither linear nor sinc interpolation). At least this was discussed for the SDS5000X.
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Yep,
In dot mode the update-rate will be max. 125000 or 500000 (sequential).
in vector mode the max. waveform-update will be max. 25000 (non sequntial).
Signal itself appears "unstable", it varies permantly.
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Can you please clarify what you mean by sequential and non sequential?
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https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2047141/#msg2047141 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2047141/#msg2047141)
Rigol mso5074....
Doing here the same, 25Mhz sinewave, same timebase of 5ns : 23000Wfs/s vektor, 135000wfs/s dot mode, memory"depth" 100pts..
Further timebases ( vektor mode):
500ps 25100Wfs/s
1ns 22000Wfs/s
2ns 21700Wfs/s
10ns 19300Wfs/s
20ns 16900Wfs/s
And so on, at 500ns there will be 2150wfs/s left.
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Depending on how usable the point mode really is, this behavior could be one of the biggest issues with the new Siglents (SDS5000X as well). As long as there are more samples than pixels, this might be a non-issue. But at the very small time scales, this could very well be a showstopper.
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Can you please clarify what you mean by sequential and non sequential?
Acquisition mode, normal or sequential, see pic below.
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this behavior could be one of the biggest issues with the new Siglents (SDS5000X as well)
Maybe it´s a bug, in the manual they proudly disclaim:
Acq.- Mode: "Fast" is the default setting. The SDS2000Xplus provides a very high waveform update rate in fast mode
Plus the 120,000 named in the specs...it must be a bug.
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From the SDS5000X discussion, my understanding was that the slowdown of update rate in vector/sinc mode was an architectural decision.
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So they should be honest in the specs and disclaim the 120,000 in dot mode only.
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No manufacturer will disclose the worst case figures in the marketing datasheet. Technically they are not lying with the 120Kwfm/s specification.
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I did a request to siglent eu, let´s see if they´re as cooperative as the rigol eu support... ;)
Below two pages of the manual, what the display modes vector and dots concerns.
And again, they "speak" of the high waveform update rate.
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It just proves once more Wfm/s is largely marketing wank. And I also wonder how the automatic memory length is affecting the number of waveforms/s. I just did a test on the RTM3004. If I use the automatic memory setting then looking at a sine of 100kHz at 5us/div (*12 division = 60us in total) uses a length of 300kpts resulting in an update rate of 1000 waveforms/s. If I set the memory length to 5000 pts the update rate increases to 12000 waveforms/s which is close to the theoretical limit of 1/60us= 16.7kHz. BTW choosing between dots or sin x/x makes no difference in update rate at 5000 points which is an added bonus.
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Honestly it's not surprising, it's a mostly ridiculous spec that requires all the right circumstances. :-// Not an issue, and no matter what the specified number is, I don't care.
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And I also wonder how the automatic memory length is affecting the number of waveforms/s.
At the siglent you can "choose manually" the max amount of memory, but relatively soon the siglent takes control about it.
In fact, there is still a automatic memory length which can´t be change.
I like to have it always in my own hands, like I could do it on my former rigol 5074.
It just proves once more Wfm/s is largely marketing wank.
I don´t like this behaviour.
They claimed 120000 wfs/s, so I expect to have 120000 Wfs/s.
They claimed 200mpts, so I expect to have 200mpts.
When that was not further elaborated, like they do actually, I expect to have this in nearly every case.
I won´t to be misunderstood, still it´s a great value for it´s price and leave e.g. rigol far away in some cases.
But rigol disclaimed wfs/s up to 500000 and it was proved without any tricks.
So I expect it from siglent too.
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But rigol disclaimed wfs/s up to 500000 and it was proved without any tricks.
You never measured Rigol wfms/s using different settings?
At the siglent you can "choose manually" the max amount of memory, but relatively soon the siglent takes control about it.
In fact, there is still a automatic memory length which can´t be change.
I like to have it always in my own hands, like I could do it on my former rigol 5074.
Next simplification etc is not directed to you, it is common.
With Siglent it is still in your hands. And it need do with your hands. User is master.
I recommend to learn use zoom mode more often than perhaps usual practice have been after other or other noname scopes.
Next I use simplified imagined numbers.
Noname scope run with "full window zoomed mode" where memory is (depending timebase) lot or more than lot over displayed window size. Hidden so that runtime user can not see. (I can imagine where from this method have started and then others nearly all have copycatted) After stop you can then pan/zoom these for look whole memory lenght.
Lets take extremely simple example. There is noname scope 1GSa/s, 10M memory and 10ns/div TB and window width is 10 div. You have 100ns long trace visible and 99999900 ns out from display, unvisible.
With Siglent you can also run in long memory even up to max memory. You select wanted memory length 10M using main timebase t/div 1ms/div (in this example 1GSa/s) (and memory limit setting if need). You see now full display where whole 10M used memory length without any hidden overlap.
Now with this main timebase for your wanted memory length (you are master, you control and command) you turn zoom on. Set this 2nd timebase 10ns/div.
Now you see both in display. Full memory length capture without out of display parts and this small time slice from whole length.
Now lets emulate this noname scope.
Take piece of black carton and place it over main timebase window. Now you see what you see using this noname oscilloscope. Who think it is now better. Take this black carton away, is it now poor. Scope what can not do this in runtime, least I do not buy anymore. And remember I talk now running scope, not stopped. All can pan and zoom and window zoom in stopped mode for whole memory visible or zoom in for details.
In case your work is some time so that you want long memory but want use fast timebase. Just teach your muscle memory to open scope already for zoomed mode. In moments you do not want see whole memory fix some paper over main timebase window if it feels better.
Only real disadvantage is that displaying both there is less vertical room. All can not get, disadvantage there and advantage there... endless, as long as we need do compromises for reduce prices etc.
What is now different between scopes what run in "full window zoom mode".
Difference is that you are forced see both, full capture lengtht and then your selected zoomed part. You can not look only zoomed part in runtime.
It need also note that it is extremely useful to be well familiarized with waveform FIFO buffer. How many sequential last acquisitions this FIFO is, depends selected/used memory length and some other settings.
And extra note. If do not like trigger reference position is middle of acquisition memory then just move and fix it to other memory position what is wanted, example to (near) beginning of acquisition memory so it works like analog scope. Most of analog scopes have delay line so you see tiny bit before trigger.
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Hi,
I take a scope at home, so I can measure the waveformupdates.
Triggeroutput to a channel of the other scope.
What else must I obay, because the update-ratings are far away from the disclaimed 120,000....
As far as I know, sds2000x+ has hardware accelerated pass/fail mask testing mode, but rigol mso5000 does it with a rate of few frames/second.
But siglent sds2000x (no plus) could not use zone triggering in the sequence mode. And what about "plus" models?
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https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2047141/#msg2047141 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2047141/#msg2047141)
Rigol mso5074....
Doing here the same, 25Mhz sinewave, same timebase of 5ns : 23000Wfs/s vektor, 135000wfs/s dot mode, memory"depth" 100pts..
Further timebases ( vektor mode):
500ps 25100Wfs/s
1ns 22000Wfs/s
2ns 21700Wfs/s
10ns 19300Wfs/s
20ns 16900Wfs/s
And so on, at 500ns there will be 2150wfs/s left.
Could you add how many points were sampled, at which sample rate, for each of the timebase settings?
EDIT: also, would be interesting if the trigger setup has an influence on the update rate, too. Edge trigger is easy, but how about runts or other, more complex setups?
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Only real disadvantage is that displaying both there is less vertical room. All can not get, disadvantage there and advantage there... endless, as long as we need do compromises for reduce prices etc.
So what you are saying is: you can use the entire screen without zoom or use the entire memory with zoom but not both :palm:
Besides that you'd need to setup the zoom window exactly so it uses the entire memory at maximum sample rate. That is yet another unnecessary step. Just stop trying to defend what is broken by design; it is a foolish excersize because there are no upsides to using zoom mode just to force a certain memory depth. What if you want to use zoom at a different time/div? That results in just more knob pushing / turning.
I'm 100% sure Siglent can easely add a mode where you can select a certain memory length (from a few kpts to full memory). This is a simple software fix so this doesn't change anything to the price.
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Only real disadvantage is that displaying both there is less vertical room. All can not get, disadvantage there and advantage there... endless, as long as we need do compromises for reduce prices etc.
So what you are saying is: you can use the entire screen without zoom or use the entire memory with zoom but not both :palm:
Besides that you'd need to setup the zoom window exactly so it uses the entire memory at maximum sample rate. That is yet another unnecessary step. Just stop trying to defend what is broken by design; it is a foolish excersize because there are no upsides to using zoom mode just to force a certain memory depth. What if you want to use zoom at a different time/div? That results in just more knob pushing / turning.
I'm 100% sure Siglent can easely add a mode where you can select a certain memory length (from a few kpts to full memory). This is a simple software fix so this doesn't change anything to the price.
Tens of years ago I was young man. I find my situation when I try explain milk color to born blind... now I feel bit same. Then when I was young I finally find that I really do not need explain milk color to him and still we can talk other things... . I think this old solution was ok and can still use.
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Only real disadvantage is that displaying both there is less vertical room. All can not get, disadvantage there and advantage there... endless, as long as we need do compromises for reduce prices etc.
So what you are saying is: you can use the entire screen without zoom or use the entire memory with zoom but not both :palm:
Besides that you'd need to setup the zoom window exactly so it uses the entire memory at maximum sample rate. That is yet another unnecessary step. Just stop trying to defend what is broken by design; it is a foolish excersize because there are no upsides to using zoom mode just to force a certain memory depth. What if you want to use zoom at a different time/div? That results in just more knob pushing / turning.
I'm 100% sure Siglent can easely add a mode where you can select a certain memory length (from a few kpts to full memory). This is a simple software fix so this doesn't change anything to the price.
Would be interesting to understand, if, using Zoom, you can actually get the highest sample rate together with the highest memory depth?
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Tens of years ago I was young man.
If you are that old you should know tools should do the work for you. You shouldn't have to work the tools. That is something I learned in the tens of years since I was a young man.
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But there's a reason why LeCroy has been and still is the number one when it comes to analysis scopes, and there is a solid demand for scopes which go beyond what other scopes offer. Siglent has obviously decided it makes sense to try to offer some similar capabilities in its new upper entry level scope instead of copying what everyone else is doing, which I find laudable. And even though the SDS2000X+ isn't a class of scope we normally buy, I can immediately think of a range of people I know which would love functionality like this and who don't need the large bandwidths (or the price tag) of a LeCroy scope.
Still this would target a niche market. Not sure if that is the right target for Siglent right now.
I wouldn't call (non-EE) engineering and science/research exactly a niche market.
Many non-EE parts of engineering use scopes, for example mechanical engineering, nuclear engineering (or pretty much anything which deals with radiation of some kind), medical engineering, chemistry and so on.
Then there is science, where scopes are used in a wide range of application from particle physics to astronomy.
I know this is an electronics forum, so most people here come with some kind of EE background, but don't let this fool you to think that scopes are pretty much just an EE's tool. Because they aren't.
The general purpose bench oscilloscope market is much more interesting if you can compete on price while offering the same features.
The general purpose bench scope market is pretty boring and crowded. Leaving LeCroy and Siglent aside for the moment, right now you can get a typical general purpose bench scope (say something in the 200-500MHz range) from Keysight, Rohde & Schwarz, Tektronix, Rigol, Iwatsu, Yokogawa, Hantek, GW Instek and Owon. That's nine vendors right there which all have different models in that category.
Now, if you take away the traditional big brands which are pretty expensive, there are still four B-brand vendors which serve the price conscious segment (i.e. hobbyists) - Rigol, Hantek, GWI and Owon.
That's quite some competition.
Now let's look at the vendors that specifically target the non-EE market with analysis scopes: LeCroy.
So there's that. In addition, LeCroy's analysis scopes (i.e. scopes which are not a simple rebadge of a standard scope from another manufacturer) start with the WaveSurfer Series, of which the WS3000z marks the bottom end. And being an X-Stream Lite scope, it may be cheap for what you get (and even more so when compared with other big brand scopes in the same class), but the smallest model (200Mhz 4ch) still starts at around $4.5k.
Most application outside the EE field require only modest bandwidths, so there definitely is room for a scope like the SDS2k+ with some advanced features.
Siglent has improved a lot over the last couple of years but IMHO they need to look beyond Lecroy's features (and limitations!) and have at least the same basic feature set the competition offers (simple things like allowing to use all the memory without needing to jump through hoops for example). Otherwise Rigol may catch up in a couple of years.
What features should that be that Siglent needs to add in your opinion, considering that Peak Detect and HiRes acquisition modes are apparently already offered in the SDS2kX+?
Not sure what you mean with "Rigol catching up" with Siglent. Rigol is much further, they have had high BW scopes for a long time (>5 yrs), they have had RF generators up to 6GHz for a few years, and for some time now are offering real-time spectrum analyzers up to 8GHz for a couple of years, based on their in-house developed ASIC.
Siglent just came out with its first 1Ghz scope and 3.2Ghz RF generator a year ago, it's spectrum analyzers are all standard type swept SAs with a BW up to 3.2GHz, and it uses COTS components in its products (no own ASIC).
So considering the facts, where exactly would Rigol be able to "catch up" to Siglent?
Besides, and without going into too much detail, a lot of Siglent's problems have actually been caused by their focus on being a better Rigol. It appears the co-operation with leCroy has given Siglent a better focus, and clearly Siglent's current products show the benefit of this co-operation.
Some of the engineers I have spoken to agree that Lecroy has some unique analysis features but if the competition would provide something similar they'd swap the Lecroy scopes in a heartbeat.
For what reason?
Also, the fact that, apparently, they still hang on to LeCroy because they offer functionality which clearly is important to them and which can't be found on other manufacturers' scopes, suggests that LeCroy is the one who does something right.
That is not a good position to be in as a manufacturer.
To be the only vendor for a functionality or feature your customers require is not a good position to be in? Seriously???
Recently I acquired a Lecroy Wavepro 7200A 7300A with tons of options but I wouldn't want to use this as a general purpose bench scope. It has so many features and options that it is getting cumbersome to setup for simple tasks. For example filtering; in some cases the filter doesn't even result in a filtered signal because the settings make the filter unstable. It really is geared towards analysis applications (besides showing a wiggly line). But maybe the new UI has been improved; I have not tried that.
News flash: WavePros aren't "general purpose scopes", they never were. These are special purpose deep analysis scopes which cost a truck-load of money and only make sense in applications which demand that kind of performance.
Size, noise and the limited trigger system alone make them a bad choice as general purpose scopes.
If you want a LeCroy scope which is suitable for general purpose use while offering advanced functionality then go for a WaveSurfer or WaveRunner, or a HDO.
And just to be clear, the poor suitability of the WavePro for general purpose work isn't specific to LeCroy, but applies to it's competitors as well. The Agilent DSO80k Series for example is equally horrible for standard tasks, and has some really annoying limitations in its sampling subsystem. The same is true for the DSO90k Series.
We got some Keysight UXR scopes recently, and while they are absolutely stunning scopes they are useless for your mundane poke-in-a-circuit stuff you'd use a bench scope for.
Looks like you bought the wrong scope for your needs.
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But there's a reason why LeCroy has been and still is the number one when it comes to analysis scopes, and there is a solid demand for scopes which go beyond what other scopes offer. Siglent has obviously decided it makes sense to try to offer some similar capabilities in its new upper entry level scope instead of copying what everyone else is doing, which I find laudable. And even though the SDS2000X+ isn't a class of scope we normally buy, I can immediately think of a range of people I know which would love functionality like this and who don't need the large bandwidths (or the price tag) of a LeCroy scope.
Still this would target a niche market. Not sure if that is the right target for Siglent right now.
I wouldn't call (non-EE) engineering and science/research exactly a niche market.
Many non-EE parts of engineering use scopes, for example mechanical engineering, nuclear engineering (or pretty much anything which deals with radiation of some kind), medical engineering, chemistry and so on.
Then there is science, where scopes are used in a wide range of application from particle physics to astronomy.
I know this is an electronics forum, so most people here come with some kind of EE background, but don't let this fool you to think that scopes are pretty much just an EE's tool. Because they aren't.
The general purpose bench oscilloscope market is much more interesting if you can compete on price while offering the same features.
The general purpose bench scope market is pretty boring and crowded. Leaving LeCroy and Siglent aside for the moment, right now you can get a typical general purpose bench scope (say something in the 200-500MHz range) from Keysight, Rohde & Schwarz, Tektronix, Rigol, Iwatsu, Yokogawa, Hantek, GW Instek and Owon. That's nine vendors right there which all have different models in that category.
Now, if you take away the traditional big brands which are pretty expensive, there are still four B-brand vendors which serve the price conscious segment (i.e. hobbyists) - Rigol, Hantek, GWI and Owon.
That's quite some competition.
Now let's look at the vendors that specifically target the non-EE market with analysis scopes: LeCroy.
So there's that. In addition, LeCroy's analysis scopes (i.e. scopes which are not a simple rebadge of a standard scope from another manufacturer) start with the WaveSurfer Series, of which the WS3000z marks the bottom end. And being an X-Stream Lite scope, it may be cheap for what you get (and even more so when compared with other big brand scopes in the same class), but the smallest model (200Mhz 4ch) still starts at around $4.5k.
Most application outside the EE field require only modest bandwidths, so there definitely is room for a scope like the SDS2k+ with some advanced features.
Siglent has improved a lot over the last couple of years but IMHO they need to look beyond Lecroy's features (and limitations!) and have at least the same basic feature set the competition offers (simple things like allowing to use all the memory without needing to jump through hoops for example). Otherwise Rigol may catch up in a couple of years.
What features should that be that Siglent needs to add in your opinion, considering that Peak Detect and HiRes acquisition modes are apparently already offered in the SDS2kX+?
Not sure what you mean with "Rigol catching up" with Siglent. Rigol is much further, they have had high BW scopes for a long time (>5 yrs), they have had RF generators up to 6GHz for a few years, and for some time now are offering real-time spectrum analyzers up to 8GHz for a couple of years, based on their in-house developed ASIC.
Siglent just came out with its first 1Ghz scope and 3.2Ghz RF generator a year ago, it's spectrum analyzers are all standard type swept SAs with a BW up to 3.2GHz, and it uses COTS components in its products (no own ASIC).
So considering the facts, where exactly would Rigol be able to "catch up" to Siglent?
Besides, and without going into too much detail, a lot of Siglent's problems have actually been caused by their focus on being a better Rigol. It appears the co-operation with leCroy has given Siglent a better focus, and clearly Siglent's current products show the benefit of this co-operation.
Some of the engineers I have spoken to agree that Lecroy has some unique analysis features but if the competition would provide something similar they'd swap the Lecroy scopes in a heartbeat.
For what reason?
Also, the fact that, apparently, they still hang on to LeCroy because they offer functionality which clearly is important to them and which can't be found on other manufacturers' scopes, suggests that LeCroy is the one who does something right.
That is not a good position to be in as a manufacturer.
To be the only vendor for a functionality or feature your customers require is not a good position to be in? Seriously???
Recently I acquired a Lecroy Wavepro 7200A 7300A with tons of options but I wouldn't want to use this as a general purpose bench scope. It has so many features and options that it is getting cumbersome to setup for simple tasks. For example filtering; in some cases the filter doesn't even result in a filtered signal because the settings make the filter unstable. It really is geared towards analysis applications (besides showing a wiggly line). But maybe the new UI has been improved; I have not tried that.
News flash: WavePros aren't "general purpose scopes", they never were. These are special purpose deep analysis scopes which cost a truck-load of money and only make sense in applications which demand that kind of performance.
Size, noise and the limited trigger system alone make them a bad choice as general purpose scopes.
If you want a LeCroy scope which is suitable for general purpose use while offering advanced functionality then go for a WaveSurfer or WaveRunner, or a HDO.
And just to be clear, the poor suitability of the WavePro for general purpose work isn't specific to LeCroy, but applies to it's competitors as well. The Agilent DSO80k Series for example is equally horrible for standard tasks, and has some really annoying limitations in its sampling subsystem. The same is true for the DSO90k Series.
We got some Keysight UXR scopes recently, and while they are absolutely stunning scopes they are useless for your mundane poke-in-a-circuit stuff you'd use a bench scope for.
Looks like you bought the wrong scope for your needs.
Some very good observations there sir 8)
This has been my point entirely all along, if you are designing general EE equipment then a good decent everyday scope is very useful, if you have the luxury of an R & D scope then that a big added bonus. But a general day to day scope of around 500Mhz is suited to ourselves, although not in the the £1m+ per scope league our R&D is Tek 6 series. It is used purely for R&D, the every day stuff is a mix of Rigol/Keysight and Rhode. We also have Siglent and R&S VNA's as well.
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Siglent has improved a lot over the last couple of years but IMHO they need to look beyond Lecroy's features (and limitations!) and have at least the same basic feature set the competition offers (simple things like allowing to use all the memory without needing to jump through hoops for example). Otherwise Rigol may catch up in a couple of years.
What features should that be that Siglent needs to add in your opinion, considering that Peak Detect and HiRes acquisition modes are apparently already offered in the SDS2kX+?
As I wrote before; two simple things: User selectable memory length settings and full memory decoding. Adding these (industry standard features) would make their oscilloscopes much easier & quicker to operate which translates in better productivity (instead of needing to use work-arounds).
Not sure what you mean with "Rigol catching up" with Siglent. Rigol is much further, they have had high BW scopes for a long time (>5 yrs), they have had RF generators up to 6GHz for a few years, and for some time now are offering real-time spectrum analyzers up to 8GHz for a couple of years, based on their in-house developed ASIC.
Siglent just came out with its first 1Ghz scope and 3.2Ghz RF generator a year ago, it's spectrum analyzers are all standard type swept SAs with a BW up to 3.2GHz, and it uses COTS components in its products (no own ASIC).
The problem with Rigol is that it takes them years to get the firmware up to acceptable levels.This is an area where Siglent has made a huge improvement. After all: having great specs on paper means nothing if the equipment has firmware issues. A couple of EEVblog forum members seem to have sold their Rigol MSO5000 already because the firmware doesn't get fixed.
Besides, and without going into too much detail, a lot of Siglent's problems have actually been caused by their focus on being a better Rigol. It appears the co-operation with leCroy has given Siglent a better focus, and clearly Siglent's current products show the benefit of this co-operation.
I have noticed that too. In the beginning Siglent looked mostly at Rigol and they made a bad copy from a bad copy.
Some of the engineers I have spoken to agree that Lecroy has some unique analysis features but if the competition would provide something similar they'd swap the Lecroy scopes in a heartbeat. That is not a good position to be in as a manufacturer.
To be the only vendor for a functionality or feature your customers require is not a good position to be in? Seriously???
Because there is no customer loyalty. You have to agree that you'd like your customers to go to your shop first instead of being the last shop they visit because they have to? That is the point I'm making here. Make sure to be the first shop your customers go to.
To me it seems that Lecroy has been working hard to offer a complete range of test equipment (by rebadging Siglent and GW Instek gear) so they can offer one-stop shopping to cater the EE market and not just the scientific market. And you also forgot one major player in the scientific market: National Instruments. They have a very solid combination with their hardware and software which is way more flexible compared to what is -in the end- an oscilloscope.
Recently I acquired a Lecroy Wavepro 7200A 7300A with tons of options but I wouldn't want to use this as a general purpose bench scope. It has so many features and options that it is getting cumbersome to setup for simple tasks. For example filtering; in some cases the filter doesn't even result in a filtered signal because the settings make the filter unstable. It really is geared towards analysis applications (besides showing a wiggly line). But maybe the new UI has been improved; I have not tried that.
Looks like you bought the wrong scope for your needs.
No, I didn't. I bought it for high frequency and low trigger jitter measurements. I couldn't resist for $400 and after shipping ($350), fixing and fan upgrades I have around 850 euro in it. It was a deal I could not let pass by me.
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This has been my point entirely all along, if you are designing general EE equipment then a good decent everyday scope is very useful, if you have the luxury of an R & D scope then that a big added bonus.
Indeed, and which is why places which have something like a WavePro or WaveMaster also normally have a standard bench scope.
But a general day to day scope of around 500Mhz is suited to ourselves, although not in the the £1m+ per scope league our R&D is Tek 6 series.
Not surprising, the Tek MSO6 is in the same class as the LeCroy WaveRunner Series.
It is used purely for R&D, the every day stuff is a mix of Rigol/Keysight and Rhode. We also have Siglent and R&S VNA's as well.
We mostly buy LeCroy (scopes) and Keysight (scopes, some SAs and VNAs) and R&S (SAs and VNAs). We have a few Tek AWGs but other than that wouldn't touch them with a bargepole, and everytime we invite them for evaluation their kit just misses the mark ;)
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What features should that be that Siglent needs to add in your opinion, considering that Peak Detect and HiRes acquisition modes are apparently already offered in the SDS2kX+?
As I wrote before; two simple things: User selectable memory length settings and full memory decoding.
Reading this thread suggests that both is already implemented.
Adding these (industry standard features) would make their oscilloscopes much easier & quicker to operate which translates in better productivity (instead of needing to use work-arounds).
Lots of buzz words right there, but funny enough it appears that the most loved (for its easy and quick operation) scope Keysight DSO-X lacks at least the first one (user selectable memory), but still manages to be the most widely sold bench scope Series in its class (the DSOX3k is as abundant as Athlete's Foot).
The problem with Rigol is that it takes them years to get the firmware up to acceptable levels.This is an area where Siglent has made a huge improvement. After all: having great specs on paper means nothing if the equipment has firmware issues. A couple of EEVblog forum members seem to have sold their Rigol MSO5000 already because the firmware doesn't get fixed.
The MSO5000 is on the market how long, maybe a bit over a year? And juding from Rigol's other products, they have also made lots of improvements regarding firmware quality, which seems to be a long way from 2014 or when the DS1000z came out. Problems with RTSA and MSO8000 were quickly sorted out.
As to Siglent, they did make a lot of progress since the days of the SDS2000. But that doesn't mean new products are released without bugs, because they still are. The SDS5kX has been released a year ago, and still has several bugs. The SDG6kX, released two years ago, also has several bugs. The difference between Siglent of old and today's Siglent is that the remaining bugs aren't complete showstoppers, and that some may only affect a limited number of users.
So there still are some trade-offs with Rigol and Siglent vs a big brand, although the difference is getting smaller and smaller.
Besides, and without going into too much detail, a lot of Siglent's problems have actually been caused by their focus on being a better Rigol. It appears the co-operation with leCroy has given Siglent a better focus, and clearly Siglent's current products show the benefit of this co-operation.
I have noticed that too. In the beginning Siglent looked mostly at Rigol and they made a bad copy from a bad copy.
Siglent didn't try to copy Rigol, they wanted to compete with them. Rigol was seen as where Siglent wanted to be, which admittedly wasn't a lot better than were they already were. Today Siglent is aiming at the big brands, which has helped to give them some much needed focus for their products.
Some of the engineers I have spoken to agree that Lecroy has some unique analysis features but if the competition would provide something similar they'd swap the Lecroy scopes in a heartbeat. That is not a good position to be in as a manufacturer.
To be the only vendor for a functionality or feature your customers require is not a good position to be in? Seriously???
Because there is no customer loyalty.
Customer loyalty doesn't exist, at least outside the hobbyist space. Any customer buys only from you as long as you deliver what he wants at a price he accepts. If he finds out he can get the same for a lower price from someone else then he'll drop you in a heartbeat.
That is reality.
And being the only vendor for a feature some customers need is in fact a very good position to be in. I can speak of experience here ;D
As to "Some of the engineers I have spoken to agree that Lecroy has some unique analysis features but if the competition would provide something similar they'd swap the Lecroy scopes in a heartbeat", you left out the part where I asked for the reason of why they would swap LeCroy scopes (which ones btw) "in a heartbeat", and I'd really like to hear why this is.
You have to agree that you'd like your customers to go to your shop first instead of being the last shop they visit because they have to? That is the point I'm making here. Make sure to be the first shop your customers go to.
Sure. And you can do that by offering something your competitors don't offer, not by offering the same with a different label.
Which is exactly what Siglent is doing.
To me it seems that Lecroy has been working hard to offer a complete range of test equipment (by rebadging Siglent and GW Instek gear) so they can offer one-stop shopping to cater the EE market and not just the scientific market.
You don't understand: Teledyne Test Tools (T3) isn't a LeCroy brand, it's a Teledyne brand (Teledyne also owns LeCroy). T3 is aimed at the economy segment, something LeCroy was never really interested in (hence the LeCroy rebadges of Iwatsu and Siglent scopes, which are now gone). T3 mostly aims at the EE market because that's where simple scopes mostly end up.
But that doesn't mean LeCroy is not aiming at the EE market, which it definitely is (and has been so for more than three decades). It just gets rid of the simple kit so it can focus on advanced scopes for debugging, research and development, in a wide range of markets.
And you also forgot one major player in the scientific market: National Instruments. They have a very solid combination with their hardware and software.
Since when does NI make bench scopes?
Looks like you bought the wrong scope for your needs.
No, I didn't. I bought it for high frequency and low trigger jitter measurements. I couldn't resist for $400 and after shipping ($350), fixing and fan upgrades I have around 850 euro in it. It was a deal I could not let pass by me.
Understandable, but being a good deal doesn't change what type of scope this is, nor should it have surprised you that it's not a good general purpose scope.
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What features should that be that Siglent needs to add in your opinion, considering that Peak Detect and HiRes acquisition modes are apparently already offered in the SDS2kX+?
As I wrote before; two simple things: User selectable memory length settings and full memory decoding.
Reading this thread suggests that both is already implemented.
No it isn't. You need to enable zoom mode as a work-around but that eats away a large part of the vertical space and it needs more tweaking controls & knobs from the user.
Lots of buzz words right there, but funny enough it appears that the most loved (for its easy and quick operation) scope Keysight DSO-X lacks at least the first one (user selectable memory), but still manages to be the most widely sold bench scope Series in its class (the DSOX3k is as abundant as Athlete's Foot).
That is because Keysight uses full memory always but still manages to get high waveform update rates through a clever parallel acquisition system.
As to "Some of the engineers I have spoken to agree that Lecroy has some unique analysis features but if the competition would provide something similar they'd swap the Lecroy scopes in a heartbeat", you left out the part where I asked for the reason of why they would swap LeCroy scopes (which ones btw) "in a heartbeat", and I'd really like to hear why this is.
That didn't come up in the conversation and I didn't ask because that would have diverged from the main topic of the conversation too much. I wasn't there to discuss test equipment.
And you also forgot one major player in the scientific market: National Instruments. They have a very solid combination with their hardware and software.
Since when does NI make bench scopes?
They kind of do if you buy the modules to build a self contained system.
Wavepro 7300ALooks like you bought the wrong scope for your needs.
No, I didn't. I bought it for high frequency and low trigger jitter measurements. I couldn't resist for $400 and after shipping ($350), fixing and fan upgrades I have around 850 euro in it. It was a deal I could not let pass by me.
Understandable, but being a good deal doesn't change what type of scope this is, nor should it have surprised you that it's not a good general purpose scope.
It didn't surprise me. I just noted that having an abundance of complex analysis features doesn't make for a good bench scope so Siglent shouldn't follow that example IMHO. So basically already writing what you wrote above.
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...zoom mode as a work-around but that eats away a large part of the vertical space and it needs more tweaking controls & knobs from the user.
It eats vertical space if compare to non zoomed. But display is now bigger and more resolution than example in models what have today example 800x480 TFT and in previous some Siglent models wfm area height is 400pixel and in zoom mode main timebase and second timebase window both same height. This model have 1024 x 600 but now dual timebase display is 1/3 for main timebase and 2/3 for second (details) timebase.
I do not know exact pixel height about these but clearly much more than these some other Siglent models. (personally I do not at all understand this popularity and copycatting this TFT size fashion. These are test and measurements tools not entertainment displays fo movies etc. 4:3 form factor is much better and perhaps for Siglent even so that long side is vertical. Why need follow others.
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(personally I do not at all understand this popularity and copycatting this TFT size fashion. These are test and measurements tools not entertainment displays fo movies etc. 4:3 form factor is much better and perhaps for Siglent even so that long side is vertical. Why need follow others.
Because this is the screen size that you can get cheap'ish now. It used to be 800x480, now it's 1024x600. In this low-cost market you need to penny-pinch if you want to make a profit. I guess this size and aspect ratio is common now for cheap Android or whatever tablets or other now-popular consumer gear so the Rigols and Siglents of the TE industry ride that wave. They don't sell enough to have screens custom made I guess.
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I don't think wide screens are bad. They do fit the form factor of an oscilloscope casing better and having more width is not a bad thing. After all you can fit more signal on the screen. Still a 4:3 screen offers more pixels compared to a wide screen with the same diagonal. Look at the MicSig TO1000 series for example. These have an 800x600 screen which offers 25% more pixels compared to 800x480.
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Could you add how many points were sampled, at which sample rate, for each of the timebase settings?
EDIT: also, would be interesting if the trigger setup has an influence on the update rate, too. Edge trigger is easy, but how about runts or other, more complex setups?
See below, the trigger thing I can test when second scope was here.
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Lots of buzz words right there, but funny enough it appears that the most loved (for its easy and quick operation) scope Keysight DSO-X lacks at least the first one (user selectable memory), but still manages to be the most widely sold bench scope Series in its class (the DSOX3k is as abundant as Athlete's Foot).
That is because Keysight uses full memory always but still manages to get high waveform update rates through a clever parallel acquisition system.
No, it doesn't. There is no "clever parallel acquisition system".
During normal operation (i.e. continuous mode), MegaZoom scopes like the current InfiniVision Series only use a small part of the memory (enough to feed the display), and only uses the full memory size in the last acquisition prior to a stop or in Single acquisition. In addition, the whole memory is divided in two, where one half is used to store the data of the current acquisition cycle while the other half is used for display processing. The halves are swapped after each acquisition cycle which avoids the need for the acquisition system to "wait" for the processing to finish. Only when the acquisition is stopped and the processing of the previous cycle data has completed, the whole memory is then used for the last acquisition, which is the only time the full amount of memory is actually used.
In Single mode the scope always uses the full memory for that single acquisition, as there is no need to maintain high update rates.
That's all there is. No magic. No special sauce.
So no, MegaZoom really doesn't use all the memory (for acquisition) all the time.
ANd considering the complexity of the different memory allocations it does make sense that the user doesn't get any memory information whatsoever.
There is a very good description of MegaZoom by HP in the HP Jorunal article describing the 54645D (the first MSO):
https://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97a3.pdf (https://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97a3.pdf)
Also, MegaZoom is only really fast at slower sample rates (i.e. 5GSa/s), and with increasing sample rates the performance goes down. Which is sufficient for entry-level and lower midrange bench scopes like the DSO-X Series, but it's unable to deal with the high amount of data a high end scope (which samples at rates in excess of 20GSa/s) produces. But then, waveform rates are really only a thing in the lower end of the scope market, so there's that.
As to "Some of the engineers I have spoken to agree that Lecroy has some unique analysis features but if the competition would provide something similar they'd swap the Lecroy scopes in a heartbeat", you left out the part where I asked for the reason of why they would swap LeCroy scopes (which ones btw) "in a heartbeat", and I'd really like to hear why this is.
That didn't come up in the conversation and I didn't ask because that would have diverged from the main topic of the conversation too much. I wasn't there to discuss test equipment.
Fair enough, but in that context the reasoning would have been very interesting.
Since when does NI make bench scopes?
They kind of do if you buy the modules to build a self contained system.
Even if you put NI Digitizers in a NI PXI chassis and use NI LabView, it's still a Digitizer system where one has to write the software for it and not a general purpose bench scope like the SDS2kX+. Aside from costing an insane amount of money.
So I'd say let's just not go there ;)
It didn't surprise me. I just noted that having an abundance of complex analysis features doesn't make for a good bench scope so Siglent shouldn't follow that example IMHO. So basically already writing what you wrote above.
I don't think any of the points which make the WavePro a poor general purpose scope apply to the SDS2kX+ - or any Siglent scope as of today.
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Would be interesting to understand, if, using Zoom, you can actually get the highest sample rate together with the highest memory depth?
Maybe I´ve misunderstood this, but I take the last timebase where 200mpt avaible and fed in a 1Mhz sine, then zooming in...
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Could you add how many points were sampled, at which sample rate, for each of the timebase settings?
EDIT: also, would be interesting if the trigger setup has an influence on the update rate, too. Edge trigger is easy, but how about runts or other, more complex setups?
See below, the trigger thing I can test when second scope was here.
Thanks a lot for that. I understood now what the memory depth setting actually does. The scope always only stores sample points to fill one sweep (timebase x 10 x samplerate = total samples). This equation will always be satisfied. The memory depth setting allows you to limit the amount of memory. So instead of 200Mpts at the, say, 10ms/div timebase, if I choose a limit of 100Mpts, the sample rate will drop to 1GSa/s.
For such an option to make any sense the waveform update rate must be essentially bounded by the memory fill rate. It's a feature to increase the waveform update rate at the expense of temporal resolution.
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Would be interesting to understand, if, using Zoom, you can actually get the highest sample rate together with the highest memory depth?
Maybe I´ve misunderstood this, but I take the last timebase where 200mpt avaible and fed in a 1Mhz sine, then zooming in...
Yes, that's what I was asking. The table you posted already answered the question. Using the zoom this way was the proposed alternative to having the scope obey the memory depth setting and using sample memory for off-screen samples. I was just curious if such a combination existed. In hindsight, why shouldn't it? Siglent aren't a bunch of idiots.
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Hi,
Test it with even 1sek, no Problem...
Next, 1Mhz in Dot-Mode, 20Mhz in Dot-Mode.
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Lots of buzz words right there, but funny enough it appears that the most loved (for its easy and quick operation) scope Keysight DSO-X lacks at least the first one (user selectable memory), but still manages to be the most widely sold bench scope Series in its class (the DSOX3k is as abundant as Athlete's Foot).
That is because Keysight uses full memory always but still manages to get high waveform update rates through a clever parallel acquisition system.
No, it doesn't. There is no "clever parallel acquisition system".
which avoids the need for the acquisition system to "wait" for the processing to finish. Only when the acquisition is stopped and the processing of the previous cycle data has completed, the whole memory is then used for the last acquisition, which is the only time the full amount of memory is actually used.
ANd considering the complexity of the different memory allocations it does make sense that the user doesn't get any memory information whatsoever.
Yes it does use all the memory from the user's point of view so what happens under the hood is just semantics. And there is definitely something clever going on. Think about the situation where a new trigger comes before the entire memory is filled in combination with needing to have pre-trigger data as well. The PDF you linked to is a simplified explaination for what is really going on under the hood. But for the user it doesn't really matter.
Since when does NI make bench scopes?
They kind of do if you buy the modules to build a self contained system.
Even if you put NI Digitizers in a NI PXI chassis and use NI LabView, it's still a Digitizer system where one has to write the software for it and not a general purpose bench scope like the SDS2kX+. Aside from costing an insane amount of money.
So I'd say let's just not go there ;)
Well, you brought up scientific use cases and I disagreed Lecroy didn't have any competition in that market.
I don't think any of the points which make the WavePro a poor general purpose scope apply to the SDS2kX+ - or any Siglent scope as of today.
Currently the way the memory is managed. I was just curious on why (how Siglent got the idea) the SDS2000X doesn't allow to record outside the screen and much to my surprise (yes, that did surprise me) the Wavepro 7200A works in the same way. Since all other DSOs I have come across so far do allow recording outside the screen without needing work-arounds I take the liberty to assume that this is something Siglent copied from Lecroy.
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Could you add how many points were sampled, at which sample rate, for each of the timebase settings?
EDIT: also, would be interesting if the trigger setup has an influence on the update rate, too. Edge trigger is easy, but how about runts or other, more complex setups?
See below, the trigger thing I can test when second scope was here.
Thanks a lot for that. I understood now what the memory depth setting actually does. The scope always only stores sample points to fill one sweep (timebase x 10 x samplerate = total samples). This equation will always be satisfied. The memory depth setting allows you to limit the amount of memory. So instead of 200Mpts at the, say, 10ms/div timebase, if I choose a limit of 100Mpts, the sample rate will drop to 1GSa/s.
For such an option to make any sense the waveform update rate must be essentially bounded by the memory fill rate. It's a feature to increase the waveform update rate at the expense of temporal resolution.
Obvious but I feel this need still note for some random readers. User selectable memory limit is important - not just for wfm/s speed.
There is this very handy and useful waveform history FIFO. How many last sequential acquisitions it can keep depends highly about memory length of one acquisiton.
Example if we are looking some slowly repeating serial messages we do not mostly need full samplerate but one acquisition we need least as long time as one message last. Then we may want capture many messages to buffer for analyze.
We can use 10k, 100k, 1M, 10M or 100M when non interleaved mode. Smaller acq length more acquisitions history FIFO can keep.
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Could you add how many points were sampled, at which sample rate, for each of the timebase settings?
EDIT: also, would be interesting if the trigger setup has an influence on the update rate, too. Edge trigger is easy, but how about runts or other, more complex setups?
See below, the trigger thing I can test when second scope was here.
Thanks a lot for that. I understood now what the memory depth setting actually does. The scope always only stores sample points to fill one sweep (timebase x 10 x samplerate = total samples). This equation will always be satisfied. The memory depth setting allows you to limit the amount of memory. So instead of 200Mpts at the, say, 10ms/div timebase, if I choose a limit of 100Mpts, the sample rate will drop to 1GSa/s.
For such an option to make any sense the waveform update rate must be essentially bounded by the memory fill rate. It's a feature to increase the waveform update rate at the expense of temporal resolution.
Obvious but I feel this need still note for some random readers. User selectable memory limit is important - not just for wfm/s speed.
There is this very handy and useful waveform history FIFO. How many last sequential acquisitions it can keep depends highly about memory length of one acquisiton.
Example if we are looking some slowly repeating serial messages we do not mostly need full samplerate but one acquisition we need least as long time as one message last. Then we may want capture many messages to buffer for analyze.
We can use 10k, 100k, 1M, 10M or 100M when non interleaved mode. Smaller acq length more acquisitions history FIFO can keep.
Yep, that's a perfectly valid reason. Is there a setting to configure how many captured waveforms to keep in the history? Or is it implicit only, depending on the mem depth limit? That would be a pity. The history buffer seems to be a very useful feature, it should not be hidden away.
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Siglent SDS1000X-E scopes does not fully decode all the captured memory shown in screen. I run some tests and it seems to stop decoding after 2000-3000 packets in SPI (and I think the same limit is applied to other protocols). When the "BUG" was reported, they fixed it by adding an error message on the screen saying that a decode limit was reached :palm: If a 5000X or 2000X plus owner can test how decoding works for long captures, it would be very helpful. If it behaves the same way, it means that there is another limitation that they are not telling about, so I assume if the hidden limit applies to decoding, it can also apply to measurements and other analysis.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/impressive-keysight-1000x-series-(edux1002g-modded)-spi-triggering-rate/msg2412543/#msg2412543 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/impressive-keysight-1000x-series-(edux1002g-modded)-spi-triggering-rate/msg2412543/#msg2412543)
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In general (not just for Siglent oscilloscopes) there is a limit to the total number of packets which can be decoded. I don't think I have ever seen this limit appear in a datasheet.
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Could you add how many points were sampled, at which sample rate, for each of the timebase settings?
EDIT: also, would be interesting if the trigger setup has an influence on the update rate, too. Edge trigger is easy, but how about runts or other, more complex setups?
See below, the trigger thing I can test when second scope was here.
Thanks a lot for that. I understood now what the memory depth setting actually does. The scope always only stores sample points to fill one sweep (timebase x 10 x samplerate = total samples). This equation will always be satisfied. The memory depth setting allows you to limit the amount of memory. So instead of 200Mpts at the, say, 10ms/div timebase, if I choose a limit of 100Mpts, the sample rate will drop to 1GSa/s.
For such an option to make any sense the waveform update rate must be essentially bounded by the memory fill rate. It's a feature to increase the waveform update rate at the expense of temporal resolution.
Obvious but I feel this need still note for some random readers. User selectable memory limit is important - not just for wfm/s speed.
There is this very handy and useful waveform history FIFO. How many last sequential acquisitions it can keep depends highly about memory length of one acquisiton.
Example if we are looking some slowly repeating serial messages we do not mostly need full samplerate but one acquisition we need least as long time as one message last. Then we may want capture many messages to buffer for analyze.
We can use 10k, 100k, 1M, 10M or 100M when non interleaved mode. Smaller acq length more acquisitions history FIFO can keep.
Yep, that's a perfectly valid reason. Is there a setting to configure how many captured waveforms to keep in the history? Or is it implicit only, depending on the mem depth limit? That would be a pity. The history buffer seems to be a very useful feature, it should not be hidden away.
First, Sure it is limited. Siglent say UP TO MAX 90000 wfms. (it is, afaik based to other models, same amount as in sequence mode). Think one wfm what length is 200Mpts. 90000 these in FIFO.... no, it is of course limited. I do not know if 200M can be more than 1 ( I can not test because I do not have) But sure 20pts wfms can be max, and also some longer... example SDS1kX-E can have 700pts wfms 45000 in FIFO and not only one channel in use.
When it is normally running and background working history FIFO it is just FIFO what have only maximal length with current settings. Capturing speed wfms/s is current speed. User can not limit it or other ways set number of FIFO length exept changing mem length etc but it do not show how many places there is. I do not know numbers in SDS2kXPlus but I assume it works roughly similar other Siglent scopes what have this.
If you start scope and example if FIFO amount is 40000 wfms with some slow wfms speed it may take while when it is full and then oldest start dropped out. If you stop it before it is full you see less history what is possible. Of course every wfm there are time stamped. What ever you change, vertical, time, delay etc it resets FIFO so all in FIFO what user see with history viewer is sure captured with equal settings.
wfms possible in FIFO with current setings can indirectly check. Turn sequence mode on and set max number of segments. Amount is this least in some other models.
Sequence mode is somehow similar but it can trig even down to 2us interval, there user can set number on segments. As long as it capture these segnments it is in fast mode and do not update display for make maximal speed possible (up to 500000 segments/s speed). If single segment it stop and displau overlaid every captured segment until you do something. In history viewer it show all segments separately and all segments can measure, change interpolation, use math, including FFT and decode etc. In this mode it do not work like FIFO. It is storage and after it is full it stop or if mode is repeating it reset all and start new turn. These same wfm measurements and handling can do also in normal mode stored wfms in FIFO.
It can say that this bacround running history is "slow segmented acquisition" and sequence mode is "fast segmented acquisition"... Both are in same memory and both can view using same history wiever and functionally these wfms can handle equal with many tools in system.
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That is because Keysight uses full memory always but still manages to get high waveform update rates through a clever parallel acquisition system.
No, it doesn't. There is no "clever parallel acquisition system".
which avoids the need for the acquisition system to "wait" for the processing to finish. Only when the acquisition is stopped and the processing of the previous cycle data has completed, the whole memory is then used for the last acquisition, which is the only time the full amount of memory is actually used.
ANd considering the complexity of the different memory allocations it does make sense that the user doesn't get any memory information whatsoever.
Yes it does use all the memory from the user's point of view so what happens under the hood is just semantics.
It's not, it's a technical reality. You can choose to ignore it of course but it's a simple fact. In repetitive mode, only the last acquisition will use the max available memory.
Also, in terms of MegaZoom, the user has no idea how much memory is actually used because the scope shows no information whatsoever.
And there is definitely something clever going on. Think about the situation where a new trigger comes before the entire memory is filled in combination with needing to have pre-trigger data as well.
So what? Nothing really changes except that some part of the sample memory is used for pre-trigger data (as per horizontal delay setting) and the rest for post trigger data, just with the latter being smaller as some part of the memory is used for pre-trigger.
In repetitive mode, the scope will still only use as much memory as needed to fill the screen, and only use the full available memory for its last acquisition before a stop.
You make it sound as if by some magic MegaZoom uses all the memory (for sampling data of the current acquisition) all the time, but this is, plain and simple, wrong. Also, MegaZoom is not magic, it's actually a pretty simple, although clever, idea to maintain very high update rates - something which was valued by people coming from analog scopes.
The PDF you linked to is a simplified explaination for what is really going on under the hood. But for the user it doesn't really matter.
It does matter, because it explains how your tool works, and understanding your tool (and its limitations!) is pretty important for any serious work.
But to some extend I agree, what's going on inside MegaZoom doesn't matter all that much because the user doesn't even have to care about memory, as there is no manual control or even information about memory usage. Which has been the idea behind MegaZoom all the time - designed for users who came from analog scopes, to give them an as much analog-like experience as possible.
But that still doesn't mean the scope is always using full memory (for acquisition data of the current acquisition cycle), and a user should really not assume this to be the case.
Since when does NI make bench scopes?
They kind of do if you buy the modules to build a self contained system.
Even if you put NI Digitizers in a NI PXI chassis and use NI LabView, it's still a Digitizer system where one has to write the software for it and not a general purpose bench scope like the SDS2kX+. Aside from costing an insane amount of money.
So I'd say let's just not go there ;)
Well, you brought up scientific use cases and I disagreed Lecroy didn't have any competition in that market.
Fair enough, but digitizers are not normally used where scopes are, because they are digitizers and not scopes (and even what NI sells as "PXI scopes" are really just PXI digitizers, although with some scope capabilities).
And none of it is competitive with a bench scope for application where a bench scope would suffice. For example, a NI "PXI Scope" which is at least somewhat comparable to the SDS2kX+ in specs (i.e. 8bit ADC, less than 500MHz BW) starts at $7,846 (PXI-5152, 2ch 300MHz, 2GSa/s, 8M/ch). If you need a bench scope then that's a lot of money for the privilege to also have to write your own software (plus to pay for PXI chassis, controller and LabView, which easily lifts this 300Mhz 2ch "scope" over $13k). And it only gets more expensive from there.
Digitizers have their place in specific use cases, for example where very high precision is required (i.e. true 16bit), or where continuous data streams are needed (scopes are generally incapable of streaming data for an extended amount of time). Outside specific niches however, it's real bench scopes hands down.
I told you, just let's not go there ;)
I don't think any of the points which make the WavePro a poor general purpose scope apply to the SDS2kX+ - or any Siglent scope as of today.
Currently the way the memory is managed. I was just curious on why (how Siglent got the idea) the SDS2000X doesn't allow to record outside the screen and much to my surprise (yes, that did surprise me) the Wavepro 7200A works in the same way. Since all other DSOs I have come across so far do allow recording outside the screen without needing work-arounds I take the liberty to assume that this is something Siglent copied from Lecroy.
Just curious, what settings did you use?
But yes, it's quite normal that in repetitive mode and short time bases a DSO will not use all available sample memory.
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If a 5000X or 2000X plus owner can test how decoding works for long captures, it would be very helpful.
Im not really into (serial) decoding things, so could be a stupid question:
Like this perhaps ? (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2034745/#msg2034745)
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If a 5000X or 2000X plus owner can test how decoding works for long captures, it would be very helpful.
Im not really into (serial) decoding things, so could be a stupid question:
Like this perhaps ? (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2034745/#msg2034745)
Yes, something like that. I tested the MSO5000 and at least it decodes everything that is on display, even when you capture over 10,000 SPI packets. I tested the same on the Siglent SDS1000X-E and it stopped at around 3,000 packets, so I was wondering if anything changed on the 2000X plus.
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OK, will do it on friday or monday next week.
What I must also test:
Math...When I use math, could I hide the source channel….
Lecroy could, the sds1104X-E could partially afaik.
When they copying lecroy, they should also copy this behaviour. ;)
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You make it sound as if by some magic MegaZoom uses all the memory (for sampling data of the current acquisition) all the time, but this is, plain and simple, wrong. Also, MegaZoom is not magic, it's actually a pretty simple, although clever, idea to maintain very high update rates - something which was valued by people coming from analog scopes.
I never stated that it uses all memory for each displayed trace. However the Megazoom ASIC can never know what is the last acquisition in advance so in order to have the full memory available from the last trigger it has to have pre-trigger data for the current acquisition cycle. It may be that there are no more triggers after a signal burst. Whatever trigger sequence you throw at it, it will use all of the available memory for the last trace and you can scroll through it until there is a new trigger.
You are also wrong that you can't get memory information on a Keysight scope. It is there but not in plain sight. Probably because the memory depth typically is 1/4th (or even less) of what it says on the badge.
But yes, it's quite normal that in repetitive mode and short time bases a DSO will not use all available sample memory.
To me it is not normal at all. The Wavepro 7200A is the first DSO (from many) I have owned which doesn't / can't use the memory depth setting I selected. Contrary to other DSOs it uses enough memory to fill the screen and that's it. This behaviour makes it cumbersome to use all the available memory because you need to configure very specific settings (and likely switch back & forth a lot) in order to use all the memory. It is much easier if an oscilloscope just samples the memory depth you selected (and split the memory 50:50 at the centre of the screen). If you need to debug an unknown event (on a tight schedule as usual) having as much information from a single acquisition with least hassle (need to concentrate on the problem at hand; not the tools) is a major time saver.
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To try to get back on the topic: I overlooked another difference compared to the SDS5000X: the qualified trigger (A->B) is missing in the SDS2000X Plus. That's a bit of a bummer.
Regarding dot mode, the following statement can also be found in the SDS5000X manual:
There is no difference between the vector and dot display types when the
number of samples of a frame is greater than 1000. When the sample number
is below 1000, there are some differences.
This seems plausible at first since the display for waveforms is probably exactly 1000 pixels (leaving 12dots to the left and right for channel number etc.).
So 1000 pixel and 10 divisions mean 100 pixels per div. So the above statement suggests that visual problems in dot mode are supposed to occur e.g. when decreasing the time per div below 50ns at 2GSa/s:
2GSa/s -> 0.5ns -> 100 pixels = 50ns
1GSa/s -> 1ns -> 100 pixels = 100ns
However, this doesn't consider the vertical step width. E.g. for a PWM signal with steep slopes, it might happen that only very few (or even no) values are captured within the slope. So even when averaging over dozens of frames, the edges will me missing or much too dark in dot mode. So I fear the above statement is a simplification for signals with relatively slow edges (i.e. which don't change by more than one pixel in vertical resolution between two sample points considering the vertical scale).
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What I must also test:
Math...When I use math, could I hide the source channel….
No. :(
Except FFT, all math-functions are only visible, when the source-channel is also active - That is disappointing….
They should handle it like lecroy does - hopefully, they can manage this.
It´s the first downer..
On the SDS1104X-E, eres was part of the acquision mode, no need to use extra mathchannel for this.
And:
Take some pics, press "print", always the message appear, "saved" - And then only 2 pics was really saved to the usb-stick.. ???
The update-list is getting longer.. ;)
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Martin, place your images directly in the forum. It's easier and we can be sure that they wont disappear separately from the msg.
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Done. ;)
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A little explanation why I´am disappointed in the math things.
Example eres…
You got a noisy signal and want to filter this for clearer vision.
How annoying is it, when you must have the noisy source and the filtered signal together on the screen...makes no sense.
The lecroy waverunner 3024 can do it, it can even for example filtering clock and data source of say a noisy SPI signal - And you can decode on these maths functions…
And display it only…
Of course, because it´s lecroy and not a B-brand you would say.
But the WS3000 series is equal to the SDS3000 series from siglent…
I expect they fix the thing.
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That is very odd. I suspect they can fix that without too much trouble. It is something that would bother me quite a bit.
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But the WS3000 series is equal to the SDS3000 series from siglent…
While true, the WS3000(Z)/SDS3000(X) is not a rebrand but the result of a cooperation (which is also why the SDS3000(X) is not sold in Western countries), LeCroy most certainly influenced the specs and HW design and the SW is completely done by LeCroy. So it's no surprise that the WS3000(Z)/SDS3000(X) has some features that a normal Siglent scope will (most likely) never have (like WaveScan and LabNotebook). And as discussed several times before, that's also the reason why the SDS5000X is not superior to the SDS3000X in every aspect (also HW/spec wise like bandwidth limitation for low voltage scales).
About Eres: at least judging from the SDS5000X manual/datasheet, Eres is an acquisition option there and not a math function. Actually, it's said clearly that Eres is implemented in hardware on the SDS5000X - this statement is missing for the SDS2000X+. So I would think that Eres really is just a post-processing on the SDS2000X+ which would explain that it's treated as math function.
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You make it sound as if by some magic MegaZoom uses all the memory (for sampling data of the current acquisition) all the time, but this is, plain and simple, wrong. Also, MegaZoom is not magic, it's actually a pretty simple, although clever, idea to maintain very high update rates - something which was valued by people coming from analog scopes.
I never stated that it uses all memory for each displayed trace. However the Megazoom ASIC can never know what is the last acquisition in advance
It doesn't. Hence why it only uses the full memory for the last acquisition *after* you press the STOP button (or the one acquisition in Single mode).
You are also wrong that you can't get memory information on a Keysight scope. It is there but not in plain sight.
Where? I'm really curious as I can't remember ever seeing any amount of memory mentioned anywhere. Granted, I haven't used an InfiniVision scope for a while (and I don't use entry level scopes very often anyways) but all I can remember seeing is the sample rate. Even when you use Segmented mode it only shows the number of segments but not how large they are.
Having said that, its different for Infiniium scopes with MegaZoom (where you can see and manually set sample memory sizes) but that's not the type of scope we're talking here.
Probably because the memory depth typically is 1/4th (or even less) of what it says on the badge.
Indeed. Which is why it's probably better the user doesn't see how much memory of the already small memory is actually left ;)
But yes, it's quite normal that in repetitive mode and short time bases a DSO will not use all available sample memory.
To me it is not normal at all. The Wavepro 7200A is the first DSO (from many) I have owned which doesn't / can't use the memory depth setting I selected.
Which scope works differently then?
Didn't you have one of the early-generation Infiniiums (54800 Series)? Because they do the same :)
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Except FFT, all math-functions are only visible, when the source-channel is also active - That is disappointing….
They should handle it like lecroy does - hopefully, they can manage this.
Indeed, that's disappointing, but it might be just another bug and not even intentional.
In any case, that should be easy to fix.
On the SDS1104X-E, eres was part of the acquision mode, no need to use extra mathchannel for this.
I still have doubts that the "Eres" (note the spelling!) implementation of earlier Siglent scopes was actually true ERES, it may well have been just the normal HiRes acquisition mode.
The update-list is getting longer.. ;)
Frankly, that's to be expected (things like this, after all, are part of the trade-offs for the lower price), but the good thing is that none of the bugs seem to be real show-stoppers, and if reported back to Siglent fur sure will be fixed quickly.
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Except FFT, all math-functions are only visible, when the source-channel is also active - That is disappointing….
Of course source channel need be active, without data input math can not work.
But is it also so that SDS2kXPlus math source channel trace display need be on.
If so, it can call as mistake in FW. Channel on/off (active/inactive) and channel trace display on/off are two different things, least in some Siglent scopes with fresh FW.
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To me it is not normal at all. The Wavepro 7200A is the first DSO (from many) I have owned which doesn't / can't use the memory depth setting I selected.
Which scope works differently then?
All of them! Tektronix, Yokogawa (IIRC), GW Instek, Keysight, R&S, etc.
Didn't you have one of the early-generation Infiniiums (54800 Series)? Because they do the same :)
No. I used to own an Agilent 7104A.
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Except FFT, all math-functions are only visible, when the source-channel is also active - That is disappointing….
Of course source channel need be active, without data input math can not work.
Not on the Keysight. It can do math on deactivated channels.
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Of course source channel need be active, without data input math can not work.
I know (I had expressed myself wrong) and therefore :
Not on the Keysight. It can do math on deactivated channels.
It´s the same - Channel from which you doing the math is hiding, not deactivated (to do math on something, you must have the source- but you musn´t display it and that´s the thing I want to have it on my siglent too).
This is a useful thing.
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Of course source channel need be active, without data input math can not work.
I know (I had expressed myself wrong) and therefore :
Not on the Keysight. It can do math on deactivated channels.
It´s the same - Channel from which you doing the math is hiding, not deactivated (to do math on something, you must have the source- but you musn´t display it and that´s the thing I want to have it on my siglent too).
This is a useful thing.
From what I recall, the channel LED light is OFF, so it is deactivated from the user perspective... internally it is active, of course
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Of course source channel need be active, without data input math can not work.
I know (I had expressed myself wrong) and therefore :
Not on the Keysight. It can do math on deactivated channels.
It´s the same - Channel from which you doing the math is hiding, not deactivated (to do math on something, you must have the source- but you musn´t display it and that´s the thing I want to have it on my siglent too).
This is a useful thing.
Are you telling that you can not turn off trace display (channel still active), even SDS1kX-E can. This is also useful in other cases than math, if we example need use other channel as Ext trigger and do not want this trace displayed just as with conventional Ext trigger can do (backside of scope). This is also important because normal channel used as ext trig its trigger performance and features are much more than analog pathway conventional Ext trig.
Is this trace display on/off missing in this FW now?
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Is this trace display on/off missing in this FW now?
Yep, only the math function "FFT" can be displayed exclusive without having the source channel on screen - Do it ( turn off the source channel)with other math functions, math traces disappearing..
Today testing the mouse/keyboard support by using a wireless mouse - And it goes very well, without problems.
Mouse-pointer will automatically disappear when you disconnect mouse from usb port.
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You make it sound as if by some magic MegaZoom uses all the memory (for sampling data of the current acquisition) all the time, but this is, plain and simple, wrong. Also, MegaZoom is not magic, it's actually a pretty simple, although clever, idea to maintain very high update rates - something which was valued by people coming from analog scopes.
I never stated that it uses all memory for each displayed trace. However the Megazoom ASIC can never know what is the last acquisition in advance
It doesn't. Hence why it only uses the full memory for the last acquisition *after* you press the STOP button (or the one acquisition in Single mode).
May I ask, if think this kind of Megazoom scope, how it is if trigger mode is normal so that it do acquisition only when trigger event happen. Then suddenly there do not exist anymore trig events. Scope stop acquisition and waiting next trig event displaying last acquisition result. Is this last one now there short or long memory (if this miraculous "clever parallel acquisition system" is doing magic things like some may dream)
Next later no anymore trigger events and user press stop.
After then he think he zoom and pan to captured details outside of display as here have discussed around this case lot of...
I do not want assume anything, so I ask. ;)
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Is this trace display on/off missing in this FW now?
Yep, only the math function "FFT" can be displayed exclusive without having the source channel on screen - Do it ( turn off the source channel)with other math functions, math traces disappearing..
So there is trace display off feature but it do not work? If so there is mistake in FW.
But then you tell "(turn off the source channel)". I am now really confused... turn source channel off or turn trace display off if this feature is there available... do you mean "turn off the source channel" mean in your text that you turn off trace (but channel of course stay on).
Turning channel OFF in my mind mean shut channel off what also shut off its trace display.
Turning channel trace display OFF in my mind mean leaving channel working background but shut off its trace display from TFT.
This is how it works in some other Siglent and for this they have separate feature in menu where this trace display can set on or off without shutting channel off.
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I am now really confused.
Me too. ;)
I can tell you what I'm used to with the lecroy scopes:
Signal on e.g. channel one, channel one knob is lightning and trace was visible on the screen.
You are going to do a math function, choose the source to channel 1 and the function will be displayed on the screen too.
Now I only want to have this math trace on the screen, so I press the channel one knob, knob lightning is off, channel one trace on the screen is off too, math trace of channel one is still visible.
This is what I mean, it SEEMS that channel one is off because it´s not visible on the screen and knob, but still math trace will be displayed.
So there is trace display off feature but it do not work?
The FFT function is somekind of a "stand alone" feature.
You can choose to display it with the source, with the source in split screen or only the FFT, this is called "exclusive".
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You make it sound as if by some magic MegaZoom uses all the memory (for sampling data of the current acquisition) all the time, but this is, plain and simple, wrong. Also, MegaZoom is not magic, it's actually a pretty simple, although clever, idea to maintain very high update rates - something which was valued by people coming from analog scopes.
I never stated that it uses all memory for each displayed trace. However the Megazoom ASIC can never know what is the last acquisition in advance
It doesn't. Hence why it only uses the full memory for the last acquisition *after* you press the STOP button (or the one acquisition in Single mode).
May I ask, if think this kind of Megazoom scope, how it is if trigger mode is normal so that it do acquisition only when trigger event happen. Then suddenly there do not exist anymore trig events. Scope stop acquisition and waiting next trig event displaying last acquisition result. Is this last one now there short or long memory
Long memory. One of my oscilloscope use cases is not even to press stop before scrolling left & right but staying in normal mode. Press as least buttons as possible.
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About Eres: at least judging from the SDS5000X manual/datasheet, Eres is an acquisition option there and not a math function. Actually, it's said clearly that Eres is implemented in hardware on the SDS5000X - this statement is missing for the SDS2000X+. So I would think that Eres really is just a post-processing on the SDS2000X+ which would explain that it's treated as math function.
Read it too and interesting, on SDS1104X-E it is in the same way implemented.
While studying the SDS5000 manual, a hi-res mode is missed there - The SDS 2000X-plus ( god I hate the designation) got this 8bit/10bit thing, it could be considered as a hi-res mode, I guess.
On the other hand, an average mode is missed on the SDS2000X-plus.
List is getting longer.
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About Eres: at least judging from the SDS5000X manual/datasheet, Eres is an acquisition option there and not a math function. Actually, it's said clearly that Eres is implemented in hardware on the SDS5000X - this statement is missing for the SDS2000X+. So I would think that Eres really is just a post-processing on the SDS2000X+ which would explain that it's treated as math function.
Read it too and interesting, on SDS1104X-E it is in the same way implemented.
While studying the SDS5000 manual, a hi-res mode is missed there - The SDS 2000X-plus ( god I hate the designation) got this 8bit/10bit thing, it could be considered as a hi-res mode, I guess.
On the other hand, an average mode is missed on the SDS2000X-plus.
List is getting longer.
Do you mean it does not have average acquisition mode?
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Hi,
Yep, it doesnt have an average mode - I´m sure it would be "forgotten" and will be fixed, because nearly every scope on the market got it.
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Isn't there an average mode as a math function in the SDS2000X+? If I had to make a bet right now I'd bet there is. You might be able to stack the average function on top of another math trace (for example FFT) so you can average FFT.
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Isn't there an average mode as a math function in the SDS2000X+? If I had to make a bet right now I'd bet there is. You might be able to stack the average function on top of another math trace (for example FFT) so you can average FFT.
Now, that would be nifty!
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@nctnico:
You´re right, they put the average function in math like the eres.
You might be able to stack the average function on top of another math trace
Manual says nothing about the possible sources for math, must check this directly, if there is a math on math function avaible.
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Yep, math on math is possible - But not in every case…
You can do a FFT of math function one, but you can´t use the average function on FFT.
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But is there a way to average FFT? And while we are at it: FFT min hold / max hold?
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Again, the SDS5000X manual/datasheet emphasizes that averaging and Eres are done in hardware (supposedly by the FPGA) while this statement is missing for the SDS2000X+. And obviously a post-capture math function is fundamentally different from a a filter that is performed before actually writing the samples into memory.
Given that the SDS2000X+ was released after the SDS5000X, omitting the HW support for averaging/Eres seems to be a deliberate choice and not a bug or mistake. Maybe this is a result of using a less capable FPGA, but honestly I would assume this (and other things like the missing qualified trigger) could be more of a way of differentiation between the SDS2000X+ and the SDS5000X
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But is there a way to average FFT? And while we are at it: FFT min hold / max hold?
Yes...
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Maybe this is a result of using a less capable FPGA, but honestly I would assume this (and other things like the missing qualified trigger) could be more of a way of differentiation between the SDS2000X+ and the SDS5000X
Makes sense, why spend money for the SDS5000 when you could get it almost all with the SDS2000X+....
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You make it sound as if by some magic MegaZoom uses all the memory (for sampling data of the current acquisition) all the time, but this is, plain and simple, wrong. Also, MegaZoom is not magic, it's actually a pretty simple, although clever, idea to maintain very high update rates - something which was valued by people coming from analog scopes.
I never stated that it uses all memory for each displayed trace. However the Megazoom ASIC can never know what is the last acquisition in advance
It doesn't. Hence why it only uses the full memory for the last acquisition *after* you press the STOP button (or the one acquisition in Single mode).
May I ask, if think this kind of Megazoom scope, how it is if trigger mode is normal so that it do acquisition only when trigger event happen. Then suddenly there do not exist anymore trig events. Scope stop acquisition and waiting next trig event displaying last acquisition result. Is this last one now there short or long memory (if this miraculous "clever parallel acquisition system" is doing magic things like some may dream)
Next later no anymore trigger events and user press stop.
After then he think he zoom and pan to captured details outside of display as here have discussed around this case lot of...
I do not want assume anything, so I ask. ;)
The simple answer, with infrequent triggers the last capture in run mode will be "short".
In run mode the acquisition memory depth is more or less the visible screen multiplied by the sample rate (automatically adjusted for maximum sample rate at all times).
In single mode the acquisition memory depth is the maximum available, and may extend outside the visible screen.
The trick is there is a short window of a fraction of a second after pressing stop (from run mode) when the scope will automatically/invisibly trigger a new single capture and show that instead.
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The trick is there is a short window of a fraction of a second after pressing stop (from run mode) when the scope will automatically/invisibly trigger a new single capture and show that instead.
Buzzzz. Wrong answer!!!
Get a Keysight Megazoom scope and try it yourself. Send in a signal which is a burst and you'll see you get the full memory length for the last trigger event without pressing stop. FFS I owned one so I'm pretty damn sure how it works.
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The trick is there is a short window of a fraction of a second after pressing stop (from run mode) when the scope will automatically/invisibly trigger a new single capture and show that instead.
Buzzzz. Wrong answer!!!
Get a Keysight Megazoom scope and try it yourself. Send in a signal which is a burst and you'll see you get the full memory length for the last trigger event. FFS I owned one so I'm pretty damn sure how it works.
Have you tried it with a variety of their scopes? What I described is exactly what happens on several different models of their megazoom IV scopes, I know as I have tested it and confirmed this behaviour across different models. Just to humour you tried it again with a pulse burst, no different.
When switching from run to stopped, it doesn't have any captured acquisition data around the visible window, unless another trigger arrives in the hundred or so ms after stopped was pressed.
Different scopes have different memory management and ways of operating, stop the presses!
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Did you test with a short time/div? Otherwise there will be no data outside the screen because there isn't any data. Or simply zoom in?
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Did you test with a short time/div? Otherwise there will be no data outside the screen because there isn't any data. Or simply zoom in?
Unlike you I'm not trying to be obtuse. The description and test were in reply to the polite and considered question by rf-loop. There are all sorts of minor details and specifics that could make a long winded report, perhaps you would like to undertake that or pay someone to compile it for you?
Of course this was under the situation of a short visible window where the available memory depth exceeded the visible span, the question and answer are clear enough but you come in with FUD and your simply incorrect accusations.
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Well, the Agilent 7104A I owned had the Megazoom III ASIC and not the IV so there may be (very unexpected) differences. Unfortunately I no longer have the 7104A to test but I'm 99.9% sure it works the way I described.
Edit: I dug around in some manuals. It seems the Keysight 3000X series limits the memory to the size of the screen by default. However there seems to be a 'Digitizer mode' which allows to set the memory to a defined length at the cost of losing various functions. I have not found such a limitation in the manual for the Agilent 7104A.
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Now I only want to have this math trace on the screen, so I press the channel one knob, knob lightning is off, channel one trace on the screen is off too, math trace of channel one is still visible.
May I ask why you use channel one knob for shut off channel one trace display. Channel one knob is for on/off whole channel (and its displayed trace).
In other Siglent model (example SDS1x04X-E) there is menu setting where can find trace display on/off what leave channel normally working but can turn off ONLY trace display, not affect at all how this channel is still fully working in background only its trace display light off.
If this function is missing in SDS2kXPlus FW it must be mistakenly forgotten. But if so... now need wait bit more because Siglent office holiday time is extended now least one week more so all delays now more. How all continue, next week give more information about 2019-nCoV case here in China.
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May I ask why you use channel one knob for shut off channel one trace display
As I explained before, I'm used to doing it this way on lecroy scopes.
Interesting:
The SDS2000X+ is the only series, where averaging and eres are in the math menu.
All other siglents, 1000/2000/5000, got them in the acquisition setup.
Why doing this different by the 2000X+
Edit:
In other Siglent model (example SDS1x04X-E) there is menu setting where can find trace display on/off
And it seems, it´s the only model.
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May I ask why you use channel one knob for shut off channel one trace display
As I explained before, I'm used to doing it this way on lecroy scopes.
Interesting:
The SDS2000X+ is the only series, where averaging and eres are in the math menu.
All other siglents, 1000/2000/5000, got them in the acquisition setup.
Why doing this different by the 2000X+
Edit:
In other Siglent model (example SDS1x04X-E) there is menu setting where can find trace display on/off
And it seems, it´s the only model.
Trace can shut off also in SDS1x02X-E models. Feature added in last FW (1.3.26)
Also I think it was not originally in 4 channel models but I can not find what time it was added.
Lack of this feature need complain Siglent. Although it is not most urgent.
Eres
Because real ERES is math function. Is it also so that it do not destroy original ADC data. (lets hope it is real ERES or least some main things, non destructive)
Please read what @Wuerstchenhund have said about ERES.
It is very different what is example some oscilloscopes HiRes acquisition is what use destructive hardware boxcar average. I do not know how much just SDS2kXPlus ERES works like LeCroy explained ERES but just because this change to math, perhaps more close LeCroy than other models.
http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/appnotes/differences_between_eres_and_hires.pdf (http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/appnotes/differences_between_eres_and_hires.pdf)
http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/appnotes/an_006a.pdf (http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/appnotes/an_006a.pdf)
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Yes well a screenshot of a math trace from a hidden trace was posted early in this thread.
There is little reason to imagine this feature hasn’t made it to product release.
Post 34 IIRC
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Other than FFT which was already confirmed I didn't see math without source trace displayed.
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Me too.
Here´s the first "list" of wanted updates for the sds2000x+:
- Adding the possibility of hiding channel traces for displaying math/decode functions only
- Adding trigger function "qualifying trigger A B"
- Labeling the F1 and F2 "channels" with the actual math function
- Fixing a performance problem when using math and memorydepth is above 20kpts
- Adding trigger mode "Alternate" if possible
Oh...this was it at all - Until now..
Another thing:
At home I got a lack of testsignals, e.g. serial decoding signals or signals with runts/glitchings.
So I think about to buy the siglent demo board (https://www.welectron.com/Siglent-STB-3-Demo-Board), for having some basic test signals at home, not only for my actual scope.
What are your thoughts on this ?
It´s price doesn´t matter to me, I´m going to sell some of my not longer used test things, so it would cost me the half or less.
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Money is likely better spend on a USB logic analyser / pattern generator in order to make patterns. Ika logic SQ100 seems to be quite cheap but I have no idea on the quality and usefullness of their software.
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I don't think it is any worth to buy a demo board when you can accomplish the same with an STM32 nucleo board or any Arduino compatible
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- Adding trigger mode "Alternate" if possible
This is, how I can say it enough nicely... yes of course we can write to SantaClaus many kind of wishes... and so on.
But honestly, if we want in 4 channel scope true full Quad independent timebase Quad independent trigger "Alternate" I believe simply, this gift do not come never to any already purchased Siglent 4 channel scope. And I believe also that not any future models... If drop independent timebase and think only single timebase individual triggers Alternate, not so hopeless wish technically... but, forecasting is difficult - especially to predict the future.
If 2 channel is enough and so that both have own memory and own ADC chip as is case when SDS2k works in interleaved mode, perhaps independent Alt is bit more easy..
Least I know some use for this feature but also can live without. For dedicated special needs mostly there is other solutions.
It is fun but Siglent have this kind of scope what have dual timebase alternate mode.
Old SDS1000CML/CNL.
These have. Both channels can drive with independent t/div and both channels have also individual triggers. So it can capture and display very very different signals simultaneously. One weak point is that both channels have same samplerate what is limiting factor for extremely different speed signals. Naturally if other channel have 1Hz signal and other have 100kHz signal also this 100kHz channel wait until 1Hz waveform is captured and then it capture this 100kHz signal... and continue alternatively, just like old single beam analog scope ALT works. (True dual beam analog scopes is Very different story, example Tek's 7044 where other trace trig do not need wait other...) Also both channels have fully independent trigger settings as also independent timebases (iIrr, if I remember right) and even both may have dual timebase, but these was old time analog oscilloscopes RollsRoyces (including price).
After old SDS1000 series various scopes it is not implemented in any other Siglent scopes what is sold as Siglent brand as far as I know.
Why exactly, I have no idea.
I hope Siglent take seriously this Alt feature, demand for this pops up repeatedly. It is not just sales brochure checkbox feature. It need be, performance and features (how does it work) of this mode is then other question.
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This is, how I can say it enough nicely…
That´s very kind from you. ;)
It´s indeed a wish for christmas, not important you can "simulate" it with other trigger functions.
Unlike more important are the channel hiding thing and the lost of performance when using math and memorydepth is greater than 20k.
This siglent is brandnew (it seems to me, I´m the only one who got it - Or I bought the only part in stock, after my buy it wasn´t avaible :D ), let´s wait for response from siglent.
By the way, I wrote to siglent eu support a couple of days ago.
No answer.
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By the way, I wrote to siglent eu support a couple of days ago.
No answer.
Perhaps these kind of things are not very urgent and are forwarded to engineers in China who all are holiday and after then extended holiday due to this exceptional situation.
This is partially second hand info but... Also even when Siglent European office is in Germany also there China new year festival and holiday time affect to some things. And now more due to severe virus epidemic in China. Originally Siglent HQ (and afaik also factory) in Shenzhen start after holidays 3.2. but due to 2019-nCoV epidemic here in China this time table is obsolete. At this time HQ is designed to return and start 10.2. (and as we know situation here in China it may change or perhaps it do not start with full power, depending how it affect peoples traveling back to work and other things related to mainland China virus epidemic. Main thing is now do all for attenuate this virus spreading and take care that average infection spreading system "gain" goes as fast as possible well under 1 so that epidemic suffocates. This goes highly over normal business short time needs.)
This exceptional situation may affect many things and sure it affect less urgent things highly although sales and repair service in European office works as normally as possible.
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Sure, actually they´re much more important problems and it´s understood, that this here is maximum unimportant thing against.
But.. ;)
A short "we´ve received your message" ( most common automatic reply)or "we´ve forwarding this" would be nice, especially when they are in germany.
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Money is likely better spend on a USB logic analyser / pattern generator in order to make patterns. Ika logic SQ100 seems to be quite cheap but I have no idea on the quality and usefullness of their software.
I had a look on it and downloaded/run the software - Remembers me of the bitscope thing.
I think, I would buy the demo board instead, when I can refinance it by selling no longer used things.
Otherwise not.
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I don't see much practical use in a demo board which generates pre-defined signals. First of all you can't use it as a tool and secondly it is very unlikely to uncover odd behaviour of your oscilloscope.
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So I think about to buy the siglent demo board (https://www.welectron.com/Siglent-STB-3-Demo-Board), for having some basic test signals at home, not only for my actual scope.
What are your thoughts on this ?
It´s price doesn´t matter to me, I´m going to sell some of my not longer used test things, so it would cost me the half or less.
Have you studied the manual ?
https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/stb-3/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/stb-3/)
It produces more than just a few 'ordinary' signals some of which will test your abilities to get stable triggering.
As you fiddle with a few brands it might be a useful tool to compare capabilities.
I've had one for a good few years and use it often when demonstrating DSO's to customer when they call to collect or buy.
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I´ve ordered this thing now.
Welectron gives you 45 days for testing.. ;)
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So I think about to buy the siglent demo board (https://www.welectron.com/Siglent-STB-3-Demo-Board), for having some basic test signals at home, not only for my actual scope.
What are your thoughts on this ?
It´s price doesn´t matter to me, I´m going to sell some of my not longer used test things, so it would cost me the half or less.
Have you studied the manual ?
https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/stb-3/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/stb-3/)
It produces more than just a few 'ordinary' signals some of which will test your abilities to get stable triggering.
As you fiddle with a few brands it might be a useful tool to compare capabilities.
I've had one for a good few years and use it often when demonstrating DSO's to customer when they call to collect or buy.
For a distributor, it makes sense to have one. For the end user, no thank you
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To say 90% you´re right.
The build in waveforms could be also generated with other equipment you use frequentlier than this board.
Also the decoding signals.
But actually I don´t have an pattern generator or a good frequencygenerator, so this board will help me at the moment.
And the "true price" (after selling some parts) for me is cheap.
So it´s ok in my case, others shouldn´t buy it for the reason you named.
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So I think about to buy the siglent demo board (https://www.welectron.com/Siglent-STB-3-Demo-Board), for having some basic test signals at home, not only for my actual scope.
What are your thoughts on this ?
It´s price doesn´t matter to me, I´m going to sell some of my not longer used test things, so it would cost me the half or less.
Have you studied the manual ?
https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/stb-3/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/stb-3/)
It produces more than just a few 'ordinary' signals some of which will test your abilities to get stable triggering.
As you fiddle with a few brands it might be a useful tool to compare capabilities.
I've had one for a good few years and use it often when demonstrating DSO's to customer when they call to collect or buy.
For a distributor, it makes sense to have one. For the end user, no thank you
I would love to have one, but it is too expensive.... If it were 30-50€, I would get one right away.
At 225 € it is almost the price of the cheapest scope... So no thanks...
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And the "true price" (after selling some parts) for me is cheap.
So it´s ok in my case ...
Reasoning of a true test equipment addict ;)
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It has the same right to exist like the leo pulse -gen... ;)
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...But it got more functions.
Today the board has arrived, looks nice, the downloadable manual leave questions open.
But with this, I can test the decoder functions without taken the scope at work.
And this what I´ll do in the next time because the whole decoding functions of the sds2104X+ wasn´t touched until now.
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...But it got more functions.
Today the board has arrived, looks nice, the downloadable manual leave questions open.
But with this, I can test the decoder functions without taken the scope at work.
And this what I´ll do in the next time because the whole decoding functions of the sds2104X+ wasn´t touched until now.
Yes the manual doesn't go through all its capabilities as some are self explanatory.
It will take a few hours to get to fully know it and the few configurable outputs.
I fitted 3mm stainless dome nuts to the threaded legs to minimize scratching of delicate surfaces you might use it on however if you have nylon dome nuts they would be even better.
A nice option if Siglent were to consider it is to incorporate the current probe deskew PCB into the STB3 and then have a really useful accessory in a single PCB.
https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/df2001a/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/df2001a/)
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Today I got for the first time the probes in my hands, no joke.. ;)
Hm-hm...
Looks a little bit cheap, but the funniest thing:
The scope got auto-sensing inputs, but the delivered probes couldn´t be sensed….A little bit disappointing. :(
They got 200Mhz bandwith, maybe there will be better probes delivered with the 350Mhz model.
Meanwhile I´ve played around with the demoboard:
It will take a few hours to get to fully know it and the few configurable outputs.
I´m afraid this is the truth. ::)
I couldn´t decode the spi signal, must spend more time with it - For 200 bucks, a little more explanation should be expected.
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Today I got for the first time the probes in my hands, no joke.. ;)
Hm-hm...
Looks a little bit cheap, but the funniest thing:
The scope got auto-sensing inputs, but the delivered probes couldn´t be sensed….A little bit disappointing. :(
They got 200Mhz bandwith, maybe there will be better probes delivered with the 350Mhz model.
Err well, exactly what model are the probes and if 10x/1x switchable they won't have autosense capabilities. Period.
Only fixed attenuation probes have autosense however as you bought the cheapest model it comes with PP510 or PP215 1x/10x switchable probes whereas SDS2354X+ has 10x fixed autosense probes.
$10/$27 vs $60 ea.
https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/probes/passive-probes/
Meanwhile I´ve played around with the demoboard:
It will take a few hours to get to fully know it and the few configurable outputs.
I´m afraid this is the truth. ::)
I couldn´t decode the spi signal, must spend more time with it - For 200 bucks, a little more explanation should be expected.
It presumes you know how to dedicate the bus and clock signals to channels and how to configure them and set the thresholds. You'll work it out. ;)
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Hi,
We use spi signals on our control electronics for a couple of years... ;)
as you bought the cheapest model
Oh sorry, my fault..
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Still, what kind of crap is it to sell a scope with probes that can't be automatically detected???
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Still, what kind of crap is it to sell a scope with probes that can't be automatically detected???
Have you ever seen 1x/10x switchable probes which can be detected by an oscilloscope? Especially the cheap probes?
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I think, this is not the point.
Siglent delivered to the 1400 bucks model the cheapest probes you can get - sure they are no auto-sensing ones.
But...
If I spend nearly 3-times more than a cheap 4-ch scope from siglent (1104X-E), shouldn´t I expect to get better probes with it ?
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Then again... I'd expect a professional user already has good probes. It is rare for me to use the probes which come with an oscilloscope. Usually the ones included are there as a courtesy to get going.
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Still, what kind of crap is it to sell a scope with probes that can't be automatically detected???
So pray tell us which fixed attenuation autosense probes might a customer want ?
1x, 10x, 20x, 50x, 100x or 1000x ?
Customers that know what they want always ask what's supplied before purchasing.
I think, this is not the point.
Siglent delivered to the 1400 bucks model the cheapest probes you can get - sure they are no auto-sensing ones.
But...
If I spend nearly 3-times more than a cheap 4-ch scope from siglent (1104X-E), shouldn´t I expect to get better probes with it ?
Probes supplied have always matched the BW of the scope....not the hacked BW.
SDS2000X was no different and it had autosense inputs as does SDS5000X yet they are supplied with 500 MHz 10x probes @ $229 ea however it's totally in another class of equipment. ;)
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It is rare for me to use the probes which come with an oscilloscope
Lucky one.
By the way, the probes Lecroy ships with e.g. the WR9054 we got, costs 700€ when you buy them separate.
EACH....
I'd expect a professional user already has good probes.
Maybe this is the point, professional vs hobbyists.
You can´t expect that a hobbyist buy the same price for probes as he payed for the scope.
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So pray tell us which fixed attenuation autosense probes might a customer want ?
1x, 10x, 20x, 50x, 100x or 1000x ?
This is a ridiculous discussion. Every somewhat respectable scope comes with 1:10 autosense probes by default. If Siglent chooses to be cheap, don't blame this on the customer.
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Why? I really like to have 1x / 10x switchable probes because the 1x setting is nice to look at small signals. And autosense doesn't make much sense if you are only going to use 10x probes anyway. You can configure the default to be 10x probes. Things get different if you are using probes which have something like an I2C eeprom in them with calibration constants and/or can let the oscilloscope know what kind of attenuation and unit (voltage, current, power, etc) the probe measures.
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So pray tell us which fixed attenuation autosense probes might a customer want ?
1x, 10x, 20x, 50x, 100x or 1000x ?
This is a ridiculous discussion. Every somewhat respectable scope comes with 1:10 autosense probes by default. If Siglent chooses to be cheap, don't blame this on the customer.
Low BW models are targeting a price point pure and simple which is no different to any other brand.
The customer has choice to spec their scope as they wish.
The manufacture cannot know the end use nor if the scope is to have a BW upgrade at some later time.
Let's look at the additional costs for this upper entry level DSO.
PP510 100 MHz 1x/10x $10ea
PP215 200 MHz 1x/10x $27ea
SP2030A 300 MHz 10x autosense $59ea
SP3050A 500 MHz 10x autosense $229ea
Take your pick and it will affect the base purchase price but also remember with full BW upgrades 2 channels might require two 500 MHz probes.
The right probe option to suit all customers is not straightforward and even the most logical choice SP2030A x four adds a further $200 to the base price of the DSO.
Will everyone that buys a low BW SDS2kX+ be content to fork out an additional $200 and be limited to 10x usage ? :-//
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I understand Martin72's point. The SDS2000X plus is not targeted for the hobbyist, I consider it to be entry level professional. Siglent should include the 300MHz probes, minimum. It does not make any sense to include $27 (probably $15 cost for Siglent) probes in a $1300 scope.
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Round and round and round we go. ::)
Restrict the scopes sensitivity with a 10x autosense probe, nah doesn't make sense.
500uV/div sensitivity is a feature, why limit yourself to 5mV/div ? :-//
Siglent can provide a switchable 300 MHz 1x/10x probe for $55ea.
https://siglentna.com/product/pp430-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probe/
Or a 300 MHz 10x autosense one for $59ea.
https://siglentna.com/product/sp2030a-auto-sense-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/
Both compact probes with compensation adjustments in the BNC connector.
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What is the BW limit on a 1x/10x probe in 1x mode?
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What is the BW limit on a 1x/10x probe in 1x mode?
Without details about every model. 1x roughly around 5 -12MHz when we are talking these usual 1x/10x selectable cheap probes. Input capacitance is there "enormous".
But yes, 1x can also use as LPF. Of course probes can also use as LPF what cutoff can easy set as need as explained with cheap method cutoff can easy adjust (one example in BodePlot II thread if I remember right).
Good quality nomal fixed 1x probes are bit different.
Then also sidenote what everyone of course know. Probes BW's are as standard specified for 25 ohm source impedance.
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Round and round and round we go. ::)
Restrict the scopes sensitivity with a 10x autosense probe, nah doesn't make sense.
500uV/div sensitivity is a feature, why limit yourself to 5mV/div ? :-//
Siglent can provide a switchable 300 MHz 1x/10x probe for $55ea.
https://siglentna.com/product/pp430-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probe/
Or a 300 MHz 10x autosense one for $59ea.
https://siglentna.com/product/sp2030a-auto-sense-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/
Both compact probes with compensation adjustments in the BNC connector.
Full BW 500uV/div, 1M scope input port impedance, and need full BW 1x probe. Bit challenging is it... if we talk passive probes. Least not available from Siglent, not even nearly but something over 5MHz can... bit far away from full 500MHz BW 500uV/div...
Why limit to well under 10MHz... (something for, why limit to 5mV/div) ;)
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What is the BW limit on a 1x/10x probe in 1x mode?
On passive probe, pretty much 1/10th of the bandwidth of 1/10 probe, or worse.
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What is the BW limit on a 1x/10x probe in 1x mode?
That is a tricky question. In 1x mode the probe will load the circuit with a much higher capacitance so when measured with a 25 Ohm source (*) the bandwidth will appear much lower. However when hooked to a low impedance source (say a beefy MOSFET gate driver) it won't matter much.
* Which is the standard method to measure probe bandwidth.
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What is the BW limit on a 1x/10x probe in 1x mode?
That is a tricky question. In 1x mode the probe will load the circuit with a much higher capacitance so when measured with a 25 Ohm source (*) the bandwidth will appear much lower. However when hooked to a low impedance source (say a beefy MOSFET gate driver) it won't matter much.
* Which is the standard method to measure probe bandwidth.
However, the gate driver will now have to charge both the gate capacity and the considerable capacity of the probe. So, "something" will change.
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That is true with any measurement you make. In order to observe something you'll have to disturb it. A reasonable power MOSFET will have a capacitance in the several nf range so the relative change isn't that big.
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Or a 300 MHz 10x autosense one for $59ea.
https://siglentna.com/product/sp2030a-auto-sense-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/
This what I expect to have it here in the box... :(
In the box of a lecroy waverunner were 4 probes, each of them costs appx 700€ when you buy them separately.
4pcs 2800€, Waverunner cost 13000€, makes 21.5% of the Price.
SDS2104X+ cost 1400€....21.5% from this would be 300€ - Divided through 4, bingo...where are my sp2030a probes ?! ;)
Anyway, actually I got much more important "problems".
Trying everything, I couldn´t decode the spi signal from the stb-3 board on my sds2104x+.
Maybe I´m too dumb for this…. ::)
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Trying everything, I couldn´t decode the spi signal from the stb-3 board on my sds2104x+.
Maybe I´m too dumb for this…. ::)
Screenshots of settings please......no not a photo but screenshots !
Have you toggled the STB3 settings to SPI output ?
Probes properly compensated if using them in 10x mode ?
I only have SDS5kX here ATM but the UI is very similar so maybe I can walk you through this.
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Or a 300 MHz 10x autosense one for $59ea.
https://siglentna.com/product/sp2030a-auto-sense-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/ (https://siglentna.com/product/sp2030a-auto-sense-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/)
This what I expect to have it here in the box... :(
In the box of a lecroy waverunner were 4 probes, each of them costs appx 700€ when you buy them separately.
4pcs 2800€, Waverunner cost 13000€, makes 21.5% of the Price.
700 euro for a simple passive probe is insanely overpriced. I guess you mean the Lecroy PP022. A probe from PMK with identical specs costs 195 euro. https://www.datatec.de/PMK-855-711-A01-Tastkoepfe-Passiv (https://www.datatec.de/PMK-855-711-A01-Tastkoepfe-Passiv) Lecroy pays at most 70 euro in bulk.
@Tautech: in this case a photo of the test setup would be helpful to see how everything is connected.
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Hi,
Have you toggled the STB3 settings to SPI output ?
Of course and I´ve followed the settings mentioned in the stb-3 manual as close as possible ( unfortunately, you couldn´t do much settings on the sds2000x+).
Normally, when you doing something wrong, senseless values will be displaying until you did the right settings.
But here in this case, I get nothing, not a single character.
Probes properly compensated if using them in 10x mode ?
Yepp, this was the first thing I´ve done.
BTW, you couldn´t get a stable signal too, it´s always jittering around, trying spi-trigger or normal edge type anyway.
Trying other formats, I2C and UART, couldn´t decode it too.
But this could be a failure I´ve done.
Screenshots of settings please.
Sure, at the weekend I guess...
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BTW, you couldn´t get a stable signal too, it´s always jittering around, trying spi-trigger or normal edge type anyway.
Use a falling edge trigger as the idle state of a buss is typically high. (active low)
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BTW, you couldn´t get a stable signal too, it´s always jittering around, trying spi-trigger or normal edge type anyway.
Use a falling edge trigger as the idle state of a buss is typically high. (active low)
Oh and I forgot, make sure Trigger Holdoff is set greater than the widest packet width.
Also as the CS signal is falling edge set to ~CS.
From my STB3 and SDS5kX:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=923664)
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@Tautech: is is possible to use SPI decode without the CS signal? Not every SPI bus uses CS.
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@Tautech: is is possible to use SPI decode without the CS signal? Not every SPI bus uses CS.
Yes, by using CLK Timeout.
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Like we do ( Timeout).
@tautech:
I see MISO disable on your screenshot - This is a point, I can´t choose on my sds2000x+....
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From an anonymous source, a STB3 and SDS2000X+ SPI decode screenshot.
Thanks anonymous. ;)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=923686)
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Or a 300 MHz 10x autosense one for $59ea.
https://siglentna.com/product/sp2030a-auto-sense-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/
This what I expect to have it here in the box... :(
In the box of a lecroy waverunner were 4 probes, each of them costs appx 700€ when you buy them separately.
4pcs 2800€, Waverunner cost 13000€, makes 21.5% of the Price.
SDS2104X+ cost 1400€....21.5% from this would be 300€ - Divided through 4, bingo...where are my sp2030a probes ?! ;)
Anyway, actually I got much more important "problems".
Trying everything, I couldn´t decode the spi signal from the stb-3 board on my sds2104x+.
Maybe I´m too dumb for this…. ::)
Margin on the Waverunner is a lot more than on the Siglent... No problem for Lecroy to throw in a couple of goodies. 20% is probably what Siglent earns on each sale. That's why you get only wires and a bit of plastic for probes.
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Still, also former entry level scopes like the Hameg/R&S HMO came with proper auto-sense probes. If Siglent wants to get rid off the el-cheapo image, they should behave accordingly.
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Still, also former entry level scopes like the Hameg/R&S HMO came with proper auto-sense probes. If Siglent wants to get rid off the el-cheapo image, they should behave accordingly.
No problem, I'll suggest they up the price to accommodate you. ;)
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Yeah, sure, because of the few bucks the proper probes would cost them...
But they should indeed reconsider their pricing policy. The only 2000X+ with proper probes costs nearly the same as the 5000X with the same bandwidth and identical probes.
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Still, also former entry level scopes like the Hameg/R&S HMO came with proper auto-sense probes. If Siglent wants to get rid off the el-cheapo image, they should behave accordingly.
The entry level HMO1000 series didn't have autosensing at all. The HMO3000 series did have them, but with 300MHz to 500MHz and 4GSa/s they were not really entry level, when they were introduced.
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Nah. The HMO724, HMO1024 and HMO2024 even have/had a full fledged probe interface. Problem is that Hameg/R&S never released an active probe for the interface so all you got was auto-sensing. I should know as I own an HMO2024 which is virtually identical to the lower models except for bandwidth, memory and sample rate.
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Hello, this is my first post in this forum after several weeks reading. Really a great community!
As result, and after studying all available information, I also became a happy owner of SDS2000XPlus. Many thanks to all members for your great help in this process. My idea was to share my first impressions.
The scope really feels like scaled-down SDS5k. I like rich measurement functions including statistics, comfortable cursors, and intuitive parameter control with Universal knob. Shared channel control, compared to separate channel control in SDS5K, is no restriction to me. I do not change channel parameters that frequently.
Probe sensing on channel inputs is compatible with TEK probe, seems only one probe attenuation is implemented: 10x. When changing probe sense resistor values according TEK spec, scope does not change the attenuation value. Probably only single-level comparator implemented in the scope.
The trigger on input channels works perfectly, external trigger input has some jitter in ns-region. No issue for me.
Bandwidth evaluation confirms high-grade components used. I look forward to see the first tear-down report! Attached see the channel bandwidth comparison of different 100MHz and 500MHz models. The -3dB bandwidth is 150M and 600M respectively, with some variations between units. Many thanks to other’s contribution.
I compared the 500M model rise-time in three setups: Leo’s pulse generator only, Leo + TEK 500MHz passive probe and Leo + TEK 1GHz active probe. Measured rise-time is 650ps for Leo, <1ns for passive probe and <700ps for active probe. Very respectable values.
Siglent family includes more attractive products. Large output voltage and low jitter on AWG and good price/performance ratio of spectrum/vector analyzer catch my attention. I wish more unified design and operation concepts as power on/off switches (some have soft-switches, others not), menu structure and button labeling and layout to be found in new products.
I really recommend the new SDS2000XPlus to all interested readers.
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Hi,
Thanks for your post - I´m not alone anymore... ;D
Measured rise-time is 650ps for Leo
Hmmm…..must repeat my measure, I got appx 800ps.
Nevertheless, it´s sunday afternoon, time to play…
What I really like is the fast/slow acquisition mode.
For example you can watch a pwm signal slowly changing it´s duty-cycle, nice.
From an anonymous source, a STB3 and SDS2000X+ SPI decode screenshot.
Finally I could decode too... :D
And have a look, it could decode even with a timebase of 50ms.... 8)
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some difficulties with attachments[attachimg=1]
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For using Tek active probes, this DIY adapter might help:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/circuit-studio/example-project-tektronix-tekprobe-adapterbreakout/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/circuit-studio/example-project-tektronix-tekprobe-adapterbreakout/)
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Post by user twizla sounds like SPAM. Did he buy the 100MHz or 500MHz model? How come he tested both models?
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Yeah, Tek Probe Interface on SDS200XPlus is what I was dreaming about. Thank you voltsandjolts for the link! I even considered the expensive and not-so-handy Tektronix 1103, or replacing the PCB inside the SDS2000XPlus with customized version. So far, keeping dreaming....
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How come he tested both models?
Before/after "upgrading", I guess…
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Post by user twizla sounds like SPAM. Did he buy the 100MHz or 500MHz model? How come he tested both models?
Because "hack" ?
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The hack is not public and isn't the 500MHz upgrade only for 2-channel models?
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Hi,
It´s meant in another way - on 500M you could only use 2 ch.
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Is it possible to use channels 1 and 3 in 500MHz model?
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Yes,
1+2 or 3+4 you don´t have the full BW, but 1/2 and 3/4 it´s no problem.
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If a 5000X or 2000X plus owner can test how decoding works for long captures, it would be very helpful.
Im not really into (serial) decoding things, so could be a stupid question:
Like this perhaps ? (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2034745/#msg2034745)
Yes, something like that. I tested the MSO5000 and at least it decodes everything that is on display, even when you capture over 10,000 SPI packets. I tested the same on the Siglent SDS1000X-E and it stopped at around 3,000 packets, so I was wondering if anything changed on the 2000X plus.
Have you seen my spi post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2910342/#msg2910342) ?
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I just saw it, so you could decode around 9000 packets. I am waiting for my unit to arrive and will do a full test of SPI and the scope's ability to capture infrequent SPI event
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Measured rise-time is 650ps for Leo
Hmmm…..must repeat my measure, I got appx 800ps.
Don´t know what I´ve meausured before, now I got appx 650ps too.
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Hi Martin72, the rise time degrades when Channel1 & Channel2 active to approx 1ns. As sample rate reduce to 1GHz. It's still very fast
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Hi twizla,
I know this and the first measure was taken by only one channel active.
The only difference between the two measurings are, the first was taken with a timebase of 5ns instead 1ns now.
I really recommend the new SDS2000XPlus to all interested readers.
After having it for appx 3 weeks, I would sign this.
Nice scope for the money, regardless if it´s "hacked" or not.
Some little bugs "of course", but it´s brandnew and hope is given that siglent reacts faster than rigol ( this was one of the main points to change to siglent.).
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From an anonymous source, a STB3 and SDS2000X+ SPI decode screenshot.
Finally I could decode too... :D
And have a look, it could decode even with a timebase of 50ms.... 8)
:clap:
Good, you finally got there with a few more tips via PM's. :phew:
Now work your way through the other STB3 protocols remembering to check packet lengths and set Trigger Holdoff to suit.
The protocol trigger suite is only needed if you want to trigger on a particular part of the data payload and attempts to do that should be reserved until you are properly confident with simple decoding. This is something I have not properly mastered however others with more decoding experience might jump in if you get stuck.
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Good, you finally got there with a few more tips via PM's.
;D
It wasn´t so easy like I´m used to have it at work - Main thing would be that I´m not really into data protocols - for me ( stuck in power electronics and analog circuits) it´s a "new challenge".
But I´m willing to learn... ;)
Won´t get it too off-topic, but there are some….Ah, forget it.
Maybe I open up a new thread about the STB-3 demo board.
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The hack is not public .......
Not officially but for the observant you can find it on the forum buried in a thread about another model.
My sources say that script works with SDS2kX+ too !
It will be some weeks before I have a 2kX+ unit to play with. :(
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LOL ;D
On the other side, I saw it on Batronix, ordered immediately, got one - And now it´s sold out.
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LOL ;D
On the other side, I saw it on Batronix, ordered immediately, got one - And now it´s sold out.
Duh. Just as I had halfway convinced myself to not wait for Rigol to cough up a new firmware for the MSO5000...
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Hello everybody
Welcome to the forum.
Here are a few pictures of the possibilities of the STB-3.
With the SDS2000X+ ?
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Where are the posts gone…. ???
Anyway, by cleaning off the dust, I thought to myself it would be very nice to have a frontcover panel (like the one for the rigol 5000) for my siglent - Nothing found, only the expensive bag.
Is there something planned to offer such an accessory?
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Where are the posts gone…. ???
Anyway, by cleaning off the dust, I thought to myself it would be very nice to have a frontcover panel (like the one for the rigol 5000) for my siglent - Nothing found, only the expensive bag.
Is there something planned to offer such an accessory?
Nothing I'm aware of and yes the BAG-S2 is a little on the top side of acceptable pricing. :(
However they do offer good protection from the good padding they have plus there's several internal pouches for all your probes and leads.
I keep all my demo units in these as they offer great protection when you're carting them out and about to customers or shows.
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For people who must carry it permanently around, this bag make sense, no question.
And the price...OK, it´s expensive but the mentioned cover for the rigol will cost 89 bucks - and it´s simply a piece of plastic... ::)
Nevertheless, nearly every brand got these covers, perhaps sometime in the future siglent will offer this too.
Of course it´s not really important.
Edit:
After now 3 weeks of owning, I´m still happy with it, looking forward for things to come with the FW updates.
This could be a scope for our testdepartement.
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After several PMs arrived me, here is my verdict about rigol mso 5000 vs siglent sds2000x+.
Pros rigol 5000:
2-ch. AWG
HDMI Output
Four math traces at the same time
High waveform update range
Massive amount of trigger types
Massive amount of math types, especially filter functions the siglent doesn´t have
Up to 8GSa/s samplerate
Full usage of memory depth regardless of the timebase
Basic costs about appx 900 bucks.
Proper probes included
Cons:
Display seems a little bit dim and viewing angle is bad
Fan noise
Lagging of response what touch display concerns
Noisy frontend
Menu structure and knob arrangement design on the front Panel
Look and feel in general seems a little bit cheap
Only one firmware update so far, although it´s over a year on the market.
Siglent 2000X+ Pros:
Bigger, brighter, clearer display
Less lagging response what touch display concerns
Clearer menu structure
Clearer arrangement of the knobs on front panel
Suitable less noise fan
External trigger input
50 ohm input
8/10 bit Resolution
Eres function
2Mpt FFT
Bode Plot
Different colour math traces
More "adulter" look in General
Cons:
Less math and trigger functions
"Only" one channel AWG
Less waveform updates
No hdmi or vga output
Less samplerate
Soft power button
What the bugs in general concerns, I´m not nervous about it at the moment, this thing is brand new.
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Martin, you missed the SDS2000X+ webserver that allows you to port the display onto any size monitor you like, grab screenshots directly at the PC, provide full remote control, and the SCPI panel and all without the need for additional software.
You need to have a play with it to fully appreciate its capabilities. ;)
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Martin, you missed the SDS2000X+ webserver that allows you to port the display onto any size monitor you like, grab screenshots directly at the PC, provide full remote control, and the SCPI panel and all without the need for additional software.
You need to have a play with it to fully appreciate its capabilities. ;)
So what you are saying is that with the Rigol you simply plug the HDMI into a monitor, and with the Siglent you must buy a PC and configure some software in order to use an external display ;D
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So what you are saying is that with the Rigol you simply plug the HDMI into a monitor, and with the Siglent you must buy a PC and configure some software in order to use an external display ;D
No, it's different and let's examine a use case.
Why would we want to port the display when you already have a 10" touch display that's also keyboard and mouse compatible ?
To use the webserver all you need is a LAN connection and a PC on the same LAN with a browser open then all the features are available remotely including of course the live display which then can be used for a larger display or ported to a projector where it might be used in a presentation along with say a Powerpoint window.
All this can be done by just assigning an IP to the scope and pointing a browser to that IP. Same for the SCPI command panel.
Further, additional features are available in the webserver Instrument Control tab as shown here using the same setup I posted a few days back when giving SPI decoding tips to Martin but this time gathered using the webrowser's screenshot button which saves directly to the PC's browser download folder.
Sure this is from SDS5kX and the SDS2kX+ will be little if any different.
Saved screenshot via a browser:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=929210)
Screenshot of webrowser
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=929214)
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OK, but the Rigol MSO5000 has a webserver, too, right? So it's not really an advantage for the Siglent to not have an HDMI output ;)
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I don´t need a hdmi output, never need a video output on a scope.
Sure this is from SDS5kX and the SDS2kX+ will be little if any different.
I just try it out, it´s the same. The button "Instrument Control" is somekind of irritating as you couldn´t do much with it.
But the lan thing itself works.
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Martin, with the button Instrument Control you switch the browser to the SDS, see Scrennshot from tautech.
I know this already, otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to take a picture from it. ;)
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What are you doing wrong that the selection is still visible on the left?
Don´t know, but I´ve found a fullscreen button on the lower right of the screen.
And forget what I said about the function button, the scope is fully controllable - I was irritating that the mouse-pointer doesn´t change it´s outfit when you go to a active field.
So you can control the scope on pc as if you do it directly with mouse on scope.
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(…)then I press Intrument Control, then comes the SDS screen and the selection on the left side (Intrument Control etc.) is gone.
I do the same and nothing is gone. ;)
Maybe a behaviour of my browser (Edge).
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(…)then I press Intrument Control, then comes the SDS screen and the selection on the left side (Intrument Control etc.) is gone.
I do the same and nothing is gone. ;)
Maybe a behaviour of my browser (Edge).
Maybe. Can you try another browser to check if it's the same ?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=929284)
In Chrome only the display is visible and you can scale it to fit your remote display with Ctrl/mousewheel or Ctrl/Up/Down arrows.
To return to the webrowser panel window you just hit Esc.
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I´ll try it later in the afternoon.
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Can you try another browser to check if it's the same ?
Just try it with chrome from my Smartphone, then it looks like yours.
So it´s dependable from which browser you use.
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OK, but the Rigol MSO5000 has a webserver, too, right?
Ok so it does, I just looked it up.
So it's not really an advantage for the Siglent to not have an HDMI output ;)
Right, however with a webserver there is the workaround to port the display to another monitor.
However the omission of 50 ohm inputs and probe sense is more of an oversight in an 8 GSa/s DSO.
The SCSI style MSO connector is a bit 'yesterday' too.
ymmv ;)
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However the omission of 50 ohm inputs and probe sense is more of an oversight in an 8 GSa/s DSO.
The SCSI style MSO connector is a bit 'yesterday' too.
This is the result when you want to bring your new technique as cheap as it can get on the market.
With proper display, 50ohm inputs, probe sensing etc., you´re at the pricerange of a rigol 7000 which already exists.
If 8GSa/s is not important, then…..Bingo. ;)
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Managed to nab just one unit from the factory today and I'll have it in a week or so. :phew:
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Batronix and Welectron here doesn´t have the 2104 on stock anymore - Look like it´s selling well.
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Batronix and Welectron here doesn´t have the 2104 on stock anymore - Look like it´s selling well.
In my opinion siglent never sent many units to the distributors and they got caught by the virus shutdown, I don't think they sold many units, actually yours seem to be the only unit out there
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It seems so.
But the "higher" models (200Mhz and more) are avaible.
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Batronix and Welectron here doesn´t have the 2104 on stock anymore - Look like it´s selling well.
In my opinion siglent never sent many units to the distributors and they got caught by the virus shutdown, I don't think they sold many units, actually yours seem to be the only unit out there
Nope, initial production runs were fully sold to distributors prior or very shortly after release. When I went to get some weeks ago they just weren't available.
There's now at least 2 other members here with 2kX Plus models so 3 members at least with them.
It seems so.
But the "higher" models (200Mhz and more) are avaible.
As above however I could only get just one single 2104X Plus yesterday and I wouldn't be surprised if it was robbed from another distributors order that's waiting for a production run of something else.
I wanted a 2354X Plus so to have the top model as a demo unit but the 100 MHz version will have to do for now. :(
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Has someone an idea what this "Tek Mode" stand for?
[attach=1]
I have found nothing about in the documentation :-//
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I wanted a 2354X Plus so to have the top model as a demo unit but the 100 MHz version will have to do for now. :(
Well, this would be a less problem to change... :-X ;)
Has someone an idea what this "Tek Mode" stand for?
LOL, didn´t recognize it so far…
Maybe it´s an "artifact" like the also mentioned debug mode in the menu.
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Has someone an idea what this "Tek Mode" stand for?
(Attachment Link)
I have found nothing about in the documentation :-//
It slows down the user interface reaction and display output to 25% speed? gg
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I wanted a 2354X Plus so to have the top model as a demo unit but the 100 MHz version will have to do for now. :(
Well, this would be a less problem to change... :-X ;)
Certainly, now there is a script available. ;)
Has someone an idea what this "Tek Mode" stand for?
LOL, didn´t recognize it so far…
Maybe it´s an "artifact" like the also mentioned debug mode in the menu.
Dunno what the Tek mode is all about but I'll ask the product manager when I get mine. :-//
Debug mode is in the SDS5000X too and it's a tool for engineers and beta testers to pull reports out of the scopes OS and the password for it is ........ :-X ;)
Had a look around in there and it's not a place to change anything unless you really know what you are doing. :scared:
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... the password for it is ........ :-X ;)
That reads as "hunter2" over here... :wtf:
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... the password for it is ........ :-X ;)
That reads as "hunter2" over here... :wtf:
Nope, more characters. :-X
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... the password for it is ........ :-X ;)
That reads as "hunter2" over here... :wtf:
Nope, more characters. :-X
Don't worry, kid, I'm sure someone else will get it ;)
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... the password for it is ........ :-X ;)
That reads as "hunter2" over here... :wtf:
Nope, more characters. :-X
Don't worry, kid, I'm sure someone else will get it ;)
It's known to a few outside Siglent and that's how I found what it was but seriously a peek in there is all I needed to see then promptly logged out ! :scared:
I paid a lot for my SDS5104X SDS5054X an I don't wanna break it ! It's my very special baby ! :)
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Hello Martin72,
A little question for you regarding serial decoding.
Would you say it is better or worse on the SDS2000+ compared to the MSO5000 ?
The serial decoding is much better on my MSO5000 than on my previous SDS2000X ( non plus ).
So I wonder how this new model behaves compared to the MSO5000 ( triggering on char for example and your general feeling regarding this )
Thank you ;)
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Hi, would anyone want to make a video review on this oscilloscope? There is nothing on the internet yet and I am eagerly waiting for when it will be :-) I really think about it but there is nowhere.
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Hi, would anyone want to make a video review on this oscilloscope? There is nothing on the internet yet and I am eagerly waiting for when it will be :-) I really think about it but there is nowhere.
+1
Maybe Dave could put a Rigol 5000 vs a Siglent X Plus comparison review into the video queue :)
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Hi,
I will love too a Dave's video review about the Siglent SDS2000X Plus,
there is not really real use info about it other than commercial promotion.
Comparing with MSO5000 is also a good idea, almost same price tag scope.
Frex
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Dave reviewed the MSO5000 and then he had to make another because all the bugs. I think the same bugs are still there. He also reviewed the SDS5000X and you can see the SDS2000X plus as a stripped down version of it, too similar to make another review.
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Dave reviewed the MSO5000 and then he had to make another because all the bugs. I think the same bugs are still there. He also reviewed the SDS5000X and you can see the SDS2000X plus as a stripped down version of it, too similar to make another review.
Stripped down just a little yes, no active probe interface and shared controls but with an inbuilt 50 MHz AWG.
Defpom will get one on loan for a video sometime in the next few weeks.
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Stripped down just a little yes, no active probe interface and shared controls but with an inbuilt 50 MHz AWG.
There are quite a few more substantial differences as discussed in this thread before.
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Would you say it is better or worse on the SDS2000+ compared to the MSO5000 ?
The serial decoding is much better on my MSO5000 than on my previous SDS2000X ( non plus ).
So I wonder how this new model behaves compared to the MSO5000 ( triggering on char for example and your general feeling regarding this )
Hi,
At the first sights, they seem to be equal, but I hadn´t test it on work so far ( where I have the possibillity to check it with 25Mhz SPI Signal, very noisy and hard to handle what triggering concerns).
Can do further ones at the weekend with the demoboard.
Only thing I regonized was, the siglent could decode "longer" in case of setting the timebase longer ( rigol could decode down to 20ms/div., siglent down to 50ms/div ) but the rigol I´d once tested at work, not with the demoboard here, so the value for e.g. clock could be different.
"General Feeling" is that the menu structure was "better", clearer - But I must test it again
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There are quite a few more substantial differences as discussed in this thread before.
Eres and averaging for example.
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The Siglent EU Support says the following.
WTF, they´re talking to you ?! ;)
Still waiting for an answer….
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Dave reviewed the MSO5000 and then he had to make another because all the bugs. I think the same bugs are still there. He also reviewed the SDS5000X and you can see the SDS2000X plus as a stripped down version of it, too similar to make another review.
Majority of these bugs Dave discussed were in the logic analyzer, which majority of people would never use. You think the same bugs are still there, what useful information. The full list is incredibly well documented here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-rigol-mso5000-tests-bugs-questions/) for anyone else wondering.
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Dave reviewed the MSO5000 and then he had to make another because all the bugs. I think the same bugs are still there. He also reviewed the SDS5000X and you can see the SDS2000X plus as a stripped down version of it, too similar to make another review.
Majority of these bugs Dave discussed were in the logic analyzer, which majority of people would never use. You think the same bugs are still there, what useful information. The full list is incredibly well documented here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-rigol-mso5000-tests-bugs-questions/) for anyone else wondering.
Bugs are bugs, it doesn't matter if you don't use the function. The fact is that Rigol is selling an unfinished product and that bothers me a lot.
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The fact is that Rigol is selling an unfinished product and that bothers me a lot.
Can´t remind of any scope brand/model, who was flawless from the beginning.
Everyone hast to launch fw updates for debugging.
Hi, would anyone want to make a video review on this oscilloscope?
I would, if I could.
But I couldn´t... ;)
He also reviewed the SDS5000X and you can see the SDS2000X plus as a stripped down version of it, too similar to make another review.
I don´t think it´s too similar what the hardware concerns - Therefore the difference between could make Dave curious.
If he take notice about the 2K+ so far.
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Bugs are bugs, it doesn't matter if you don't use the function. The fact is that Rigol is selling an unfinished product and that bothers me a lot.
I bought my MSO5072 back in September, knowing full well the issues with it. At the time I had also heard rumors about Siglent's upcoming scopes (I can confirm that there are Siglent beta testers who are members of EEVBlog, Shhh!!! Hehe) but I did not want to wait 4+ months for something that would likely cost hundreds more. I do not regret buying the Rigol: until I had it on my bench, I had not physically touched a scope in many, many, many years (I vaguely recall that I got an EE degree a couple decades ago, but went into software instead). Honestly, the (hacked) Rigol completely fulfills all my current and future needs, up to the point I'll be buying a 2+GHz BW boat anchor. BUT, I have the same complaints about it as everyone else. I am currently at the "hobbyist" level, but I am building up my home lab and my skill level to see how viable a career change from software->hardware might be, without a drastic pay cut. I just ordered my first "adult-ish" multi output power supply, a GPP-4323 w/LAN (FYI: I got a good deal on the PS from Tequipment and they have a discount for EEVBlog members), and from the reviews I expect I'll have high confidence in the equipment.
But I do not have the same confidence in my Rigol, and that confidence decreases every day that they do not release a FW update. Long story short, I'm seriously looking at trading "up" to the SDS2104X Plus, assuming I'll eventually unearth the "home improvement" procedure. I have the impression from this thread that it's safe to assume I'll have much higher confidence with the Siglent, but is that confidence worth the extra cash and the loss of 8GSa/s? Or perhaps my impression of the SDS2000X Plus is a bit too rosey? Well, that's the (very individual) question I'm struggling with.
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I´m with you.
I had my rigol 5074 for over one year, was one of the first owners.
Before, I was a rigol "fan" since the DS1000Z cames up.
Liked the full packed features.
Was happy as the 5000 cames up, for me the true heritage of the DS1000Z.
But month goes by….
In this time I was nearly every week in contact with the rigol eu support.
And they gave me all the support they could, very nice.
But at the end..
Only one official fw update, next update is delaying for months.
Should launched in may 2019, now we got february 2020.
And then I took a very low noise measurement and must find out, the rigol couldn´t really handle this.
At the same time, the siglent 2K+ cames up.
"Only" 2GSa/s...hm-hm..
But otherwise…
It was a spontaneous decision, I´ve sold my rigol, put some bucks additional and ordered the siglent.
Less samplerate, less features - But I don´t regret it until today.
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I am with you too. I had the MSO5000 2 times, the first unit sold after seeing the poor UI design (screen menu items unaligned with the buttons, dim display, slow UI, etc). Then I saw the hack and tried one more time, the new unit had better LCD brightness, but it was still very unresponsive... and concluded that if you don't really need the extra features (sample rate, deep memory and all the hacked features), as a daily use scope, it is unbearable... I lost confidence on it, it was not pleasant to use. Sold it.
Purchased the SDS2104X plus 2-3 weeks ago and waiting for it to be back in stock
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New firmware released for Siglent SDS2000X Plus
SDS2000XP Firmware – 1.3.5R3 (Release Date 02.21.20 )
https://www.siglenteu.com/download/8989/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/download/8989/)
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I am impressed,
1. Supported Sign as a math function
2. Updated the Webserver. The built-in bin2csv tool supported to convert binary data of digital channels
3. Added English help information
4. Fixed several bugs
It took Rigol 6 months to release 04.08 with 5 fixes for the rest of the world.
Not only that, the Siglent firmware was released simultaneously at the US. Rigol MSO5000 kept US at an older firmware for another 5 months for some unknown reason, while the rest of the world was on a different version. So it took U.S. almost a year to get a fix with 5 patches and no new features.
Siglent did this despite the disruptions caused by the Coronavirus, while Rigol has not released a single new firmware for 3 months for ANY of its products.
If this new firmware truly fixes some of the top issues in the Siglent scope, that would put them leagues above Rigol in firmware support.
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They seem to have made a lot of progress at this level :-+
They were as bad as Rigol few month/years ago.....
I hope this will push Rigol to progress on that.
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One can only hope, but again, as I said many time before, I expect nothing when it comes to Rigol.
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Eres and averaging for example.
Slightly offtopic but I recently tried Eres at work on my LeCroy 6Zi and on the WS3000 of a colleague. The Eres on the 6zi is shown as acquisition feature (i.e. exists on each channel and affects the channel's display), but is indeed a post-processing option. So it doesn't alter the measured sample values and can be modified after acquisition.
On the WS3000 though, Eres is a math function, so you can activate it in addition to the channel but it won't replace the channel. Still, you can deactivate the display of a channel and keep the math function. However, the WS3000 seems to be limited to two math channels and the update of these channels is very slow compared to the actual channels.
Personally, I would consider this 2nd kind of Eres implementation (which seems to be more or less identical to that on the SDS2000X Plus) unusable for anything but a screenshot now and then (even there using a math function clearly reveals that this is not really the measured data).
So I really wonder how the "hardware accelerated" Eres on the SDS5000X is working. If it's really following Lecroy's definition of Eres, it can't modify the measured data but has to be done for the display only - probably at the same level where also the linear/sinc interpolation is done.
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New firmware released for Siglent SDS2000X Plus
SDS2000XP Firmware – 1.3.5R3 (Release Date 02.21.20 )
Hm,
I already got this version :-//
Date of the file is december, 26th.
Nevertheless, I´ve done it and no message came up (e.g. this version already exists).
Maybe this is a upgrade for very few early models, not for every model.
Interesting thing @tv84:
In the upgrade instructions for upgrading via web server, you can see something…. ;)
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I don't know if this SDS2504X+ is able to handle 500Mhz on all channels or if a SDS2504X+ = SDS2354X+ with 500Mhz upgrade.
If that is the case, Performa01 has already has already measured 570Mhz @ -3dB.
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Same as before.
I wonder it won´t deny the upgrade, although it is the same version.
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Now I know I wasn´t wrong, in two ways.
First, it really doesn´t recognize if the firmware is already installed - Test it simple by upgrade it again and no message appears. ;)
Second, I got the evidence, that my scope already got the firmware:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2881294/#msg2881294 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2881294/#msg2881294)
And have a look at the pics…
Then have a look at the pic I´ve taken NOW.
So in my opinion, the launching of this fw-version was a mistake or, as I wrote it before, for really early models - But I don´t believe this.
Show once which options are enabled
See below.
Martin
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So in my opinion, the launching of this fw-version was a mistake or, as I wrote it before, for really early models - But I don´t believe this.
Of late Siglent have always made available the FIRST (release) firmware version.
Because of the virus restricting their return to work this first public firmware version has only now been released.
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Hm, what sense make this...
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Hm, what sense make this...
A baseline version that beta testers usually don't have at product release.
And an initial something for tv84 to investigate. ;)
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Ah, I see. ;)
To be honest, I would also have been surprised if a "real" update had come so early, especially under the actual circumstances.
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So, looking at the FW:
PRODUCT_ID = 16001
References to 2504X+ don't exist explicitly in the app.
Comparing with one of my previous msg, we can see that ZODIAC- has became known as ZDL-HD-1G.
Siglent is investing in these Product Types (as seen in the SDS2kHD app):
0 - SDS1002X-E
1 - SDS1004X-E
2 - SDS2000X-E
3 - SDS5000X
4 - SLA1016
5 - SDS2000X+
6, 9 - ZDL-HD-1G
7 - SHS800X / SHS1000X
8 - SDS1004X-U (codename "ARCHER")
10 - SDS2000X-HD
11 - SDS6000L
12 - NeZha
EDIT Oct. 9th, 2022 - added from 7 up to 12
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Same as before.
I wonder it won´t deny the upgrade, although it is the same version.
Usually all vendors allow the flashing of the current FW version (Siglent and Rigol, for sure).
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Today I´ve played around again with the stb-3 demoboard.
And again, I was pleased about the nice display of the siglent, but couldn´t get a better pic to show how good or much better it is in comparision to the rigol 5000..
For the decoding, I took the UART demo.
It seems it decodes from the memory, not from the screen.
Pic was taken at a timebase of 200ms, if you decrease the memdepth from maximum to say 100kpts, errors occuring.
Back to full memdepth, pressing "stop" and zooming in, it decodes as well as if it´s in "run" mode.
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Additionally, I take the SPI Signal too.
Nice point in the decoder menu are the copy functions of the signal settings.
And so I choose "copy to trigger" and trigger changes to spi Decoding and I got rockstable signals.
By the way:
I just saw it, so you could decode around 9000 packets.
Test it again and lowered the timebase to 100ms - It decodes 15000 packages and this is the limit, at 200 or 500ms the amount is fixed to 15000.
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Hello, you do not know if there are any discount coupons somewhere batronix coupon code?
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Hi,
No I don´t know a thing about it - But before I´ve bought my siglent from batronix, I´ve pressed the button "Request Offer" - And they offered me 3% off.
(Looking back, I wouldn't have waited another day for an offer as quickly as the siglent was sold off :phew: )
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3% is a discount like a grain of rice |O I would expect something more interesting at least a two-digit number with one at the beginning: D
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When "Media Markt" will offer scopes in the future, you could have luck when tey got their VATs off days. ;)
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3% is a discount like a grain of rice |O I would expect something more interesting at least a two-digit number with one at the beginning: D
No problem, additional discount is available for class sets with educational discounts if approved by Siglent.
How many class sets do you need ?
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I don't quite understand the query. I need an oscilloscope as a hobby for my house and maybe another for my brother. It is the Siglent SDS2104X Plus
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I don't quite understand the query. I need an oscilloscope as a hobby for my house and maybe another for my brother. It is the Siglent SDS2104X Plus
Why would you expect being given a significant discount for a single, or maybe two, pieces of equipment in such high demand that it is sold out everywhere? They could just sell it to the next guy at the full listing price. If they had any in stock, that is.
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Saelig offers a better discount for every EEVBLOG forum member with a promo code, I am sure Batronix can do the same or better
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And why not? He who buys it in bulk, so it does not come from his earned money but from some budget that does not burn as a private need. Moreover, "do not expect" but I ask. There is nothing wrong with asking.
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I am sure Batronix can do the same or better
Correct, can..
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And why not? He who buys it in bulk, so it does not come from his earned money but from some budget that does not burn as a private need. Moreover, "do not expect" but I ask. There is nothing wrong with asking.
uh...
3% is a discount like a grain of rice |O I would expect something more interesting at least a two-digit number with one at the beginning: D
Emphasis mine. :palm:
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Things cost money.
I don't think there is much possible discount on entry-level models.
The low cost probes on the entry level model shows us that they pay attention to the margin.
You will probably be more likely to get 10% or better if you order an SDS2204X+ or SDS2354X+.
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I hear MSO5074 are going cheap these days. Might be an option. You can't be choosy if you're penny pinching.
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And I have mine on sell on this forum >:D
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Hello. For skeptics that it is not possible to get a discount, so it is possible. I got a big discount. If anyone was interested so PM ;)
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Embedded World started today. Traditionally Batronix offers a 5-6% "trade show" discount with a code which you can get at their booth. In 2016 it was EW16R. In 2017 it was EW17MR. Maybe it's EW20(M)R this year ;)
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If anyone was interested so PM
If it is an official/authorized dealer, you can also name him here.
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Hi,
I hate reading long pdf-files, so what should I do with the user manual ?
Right, print it... ;)
So I uploaded the file online to have it turned into a real manual.
The book should arrive on forthcoming saturday.
I wonder how it will turn out.
Costs....around 38€ for a single one, higher book editions would have been cheaper.
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Hi, I would probably print it and bind and the cost would be 5 EUR with a link :-D
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So today I finally agreed with Batronix about Siglent SDS2104X Plus. The original price that I wrote in the news was a bug on the Batronix side and the next day they apologized and corrected the price. They gave a 6% discount. In the end I stole them at 8% but at least two pieces must be bought. I definitely want one and so I want to ask who is interested in this model with an 8% discount from Batronix. If anyone finds, we have to make a joint purchase. The price is 2626, - EUR for both for 1 piece is 1313, - EUR including VAT. If someone can redeem an ICO number it is possible to refund VAT. Please who is interested write and we will agree.
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The book should arrive on forthcoming saturday.
Correction, the book has arrived... ;)
Nice quality, although some pictures are a little bit dark but that doesn´t matter too much.
Martin
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If anyone finds, we have to make a joint purchase. The price is 2626, - EUR for both for 1 piece is 1313, - EUR including VAT.
To be honest....
I´ve asked and became the offer for 3% off - This tooks me under 1400€.
If they hadn't offered it, I would have bought it anyway.
Because If I can spend 1300, than I can spend 1400 also.
So much effort for a few bucks less….Can´t really understand this.
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Every EURO at home counts. I can't find EUR 100 on the street.
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So today I finally agreed with Batronix about Siglent SDS2104X Plus. The original price that I wrote in the news was a bug on the Batronix side and the next day they apologized and corrected the price. They gave a 6% discount. In the end I stole them at 8% but at least two pieces must be bought. I definitely want one and so I want to ask who is interested in this model with an 8% discount from Batronix. If anyone finds, we have to make a joint purchase. The price is 2626, - EUR for both for 1 piece is 1313, - EUR including VAT. If someone can redeem an ICO number it is possible to refund VAT. Please who is interested write and we will agree.
What is an ICO number ?
Do you mean VAT registration number ?
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Yes exactly. I was referring to the VAT registration number.
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It's not very legal.
I doubt that someone who has a business will take the risk of buying without VAT and then sell it to you :wtf:
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Especially not since authorities will collect the VAT from him if he doesn't sell it to you with a proper invoice and including VAT...
And if he doesn't declare it, it will be a tax fraud.
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I like Martin72 approach of book print of the manual PDF. Serious instrument ask for solid tools. Though i made my manual in local copy shop, next time i will save my time and go for perfection. Also my black in printed screenshots is very high contrast
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Every EURO at home counts. I can't find EUR 100 on the street.
True. A penny saved is a penny earned. If you're on a hobbyist budget, spendings on the hobby compete with the demands of the household. If you're not single and with no obligations, 100€ is quite a lump. So, nothing can be said against a bit of haggling. As long as it's not under the assumption that the vendor needn't make a profit for your benefit alone.
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Played around with an old cellphone. Yellow trace is TX IQ signal, pink is RX IQ signal and green the battery current. You see two RX burst, the shorter and more noisy neighbor cell monitoring and longer burst being call data. Scope Zone Trigger function will help, if needed to synchronize either the shorter or the longer ones. Very happy with the scope.
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Prospective EU buyers, recommend to ask an offer from Siglent.eu distributor
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Ah, another owner, now I´m not "alone" anymore.. 8)
Which model did you buy and from which distributor, Welectron ?
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Prospective EU buyers, recommend to ask an offer from Siglent.eu distributor
No. Poor service. This guy has a whole bunch of .eu domains for various brands and is just shuffling boxes.
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Look at https://www.welectron.com/ (https://www.welectron.com/)
Yep, I know welectron and bought several things from.
But I don´t knew the discount so far...a bit of pity but at last nothing that would make me cry in my pillow.
For some who want to buy at welectron a nice thing to get, see below.
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Of course I do not want anything illegal, so if it is beyond the edge and in no way. As for the budget so I have to watch it. Three kids, wife with one year old baby at home so I'm on my own. Who doesn't have a family doesn't know what I'm talking about. When it was free, it was all easier. But family is more than anything including oscilloscope :-)
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Maybe you are mistaken and mean another dealer
What I´ve understand is, he means siglent.eu and not welectron.
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Maybe you are mistaken and mean another dealer
What I´ve understand is, he means siglent.eu and not welectron.
Exactly!
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Thank you, I have been in touch with this seller since Friday, who decided to respond to my offer from Batronix and pledged to give me a better price than Batronix. So let's see, I sent an offer from Batronix and the discount was 8%
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Just have a look at Welectron in Karlsruhe: welectron.com
In total if you do it right it is 6.9% discount and that with 1 device.
I´ve played the things through….nearly 100 bucks less, nice..
...For me at the next buy., ;)
I sent an offer from Batronix and the discount was 8%
For two scopes, if I remember it right.
I would choose welectron, a little less discount but you won´t have the stress finding another one to buy the second (with all the possible risks).
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Well now just convince my wife :-) I started it yesterday and today I will continue :-) Life is short :-)
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Well now just convince my wife :-)
According to this offer (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2939598/#msg2939598), the lack of only 13€ shouldn´t make it impossible.. ;)
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Well, it's more like the whole oscilloscope itself. For her it is an expensive box :-DD
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You can buy my MSO5074 for much less money >:D
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Actually, I play again with the decode signals of the STB-3, trying out to decode them with my scope and learn from it ( don´t know much about decoding).
Uart and spi I´ve managed so far, today I want to decode I2C and CAN.
Getting stucked on the I2C ( signal is stable, but no decoding, no clue why.), I try the CAN.
And study the user manual how to do the right settings.
And I think, I´ve found a bug or I´m too blind to find it on the scope.
The pic below shows a menu which seems to doesn´t exist... :-//
Or, as I said, I´m too blind.
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This menu will only exist in CAN FD mode. Are you 100% sure you selected "CAN FD" as frame type?
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Yes, I´m blind.... |O
Doesn´t notice the whole decode list, saw "can" and that was it - a few lines beyond, it will be "CAN FD"... :palm:
Thank You!
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Hi Martin. Will Siglent be able to decode an IR remote control signal?
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Hi,
No, whether recs 80 or rc-5 or hitachi code.
Hm... if this can do it in the future (firmware) it would be unique….
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Just a little wonder if SDS1104X E would not be enough, because it is significantly different. I know it has only 1GS / s and memory about 14Mb. Now I have Agilent 1GS / s but memory only 4Kb. Rather, I have no idea what the advantage of 50 Ohm inputs. It just eroded me if it would be sufficient for me cheaper 4 channel.
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As always, it´s depending from what you want to do with it.
I´ve owned a siglent sds1104X-E and was pleased about it - Maybe it got all you need, then go for this and save a lot of money.
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Can you briefly only basic points as the difference between them? I mean, besides memory and better sampling, what else would the 2000 model have or better? Like mathematical functions or other things?
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Hi,
Bigger screen (10" instead 7"), zone trigger, autosense probe inputs, 50ohm Inputs, formular editor (math), "real" built in awg, touchscreen, have a look at the two specsheets:
SDS1000X-E (https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2018/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf)
SDS2000X-Plus (https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2019/12/SDS2000X-Plus_Datasheet_DS0102XP_E01A-1.pdf)
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By the way and just recognized it now….
Test it again and lowered the timebase to 100ms - It decodes 15000 packages and this is the limit, at 200 or 500ms the amount is fixed to 15000.
LOL, the maximum frames are already given in the specs….
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Hi,
Bigger screen (10" instead 7"), zone trigger, autosense probe inputs, 50ohm Inputs, formular editor (math), "real" built in awg, touchscreen, have a look at the two specsheets:
Add mouse and keyboard control, Power Analysis, inbuilt MSO HW, smart fan ? (like SDS5000X), 2 Mpts FFT, RTC, Histograms, DMM mode, vertical zoom..............
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….1ppm timebase accuracy, instead 25ppm...and so on.
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So it's clear. Although I won't use everything, I would cry that I don't have it. So no compromises :-) SDS2104X +
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Martin, can you confirm 2kX Plus also has a smart fan ?
My SDS5kX fan is at full power at boot but slows to much quieter within a minute of boot.
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Just checked it out:
No, it remains on the same (quiet) level.
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For the record: there is a thread about the SDS5000X (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds5104x-disappointing/) (total mess though due to corrupt screen shots which make the forum SW hide all following postings on page 1) which indicates that measurement are not performed at all for large memory/capture buffer sizes. I.e. it seems as if even something simple as an "edge counter" measurement is not performed unless you reduce the memory size or zoom in. So it seems that the SDS5000X is not able to perform measurements on its whole deep memory - which would somewhat kill the idea of deep memory for certain applications and would be the final nail in the coffin for me. So I wonder if someone checked this on the SDS2000X+.
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Maybe I get it wrong, but I took a squarewave ( I borrowed my stb-3 today) of 1Mhz, zoom in it measures the edges, zoom out, it measure it too.
But it couldn´t measure more than 200000 edges.
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Maybe I get it wrong, but I took a squarewave ( I borrowed my stb-3 today) of 1Mhz, zoom in it measures the edges, zoom out, it measure it too.
Trolls looking for bugs that ain't there ! ::)
But it couldn´t measure more than 200000 edges.
Yes and it indicates that. ;)
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Yes and it indicates that.
Therefore the third pic. ;)
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At least it's measuring something but this "saturation" is somewhat alarming. I wonder if other measurements like DC and the average etc. calculated from them are also only performed for a part of the measured data.
Besides: does this counter count both edges or did you configure it that way? With only one edge counted, I would have expected 100k edges with 10ms/div and 1MHz square wave.
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At least it's measuring something but this "saturation" is somewhat alarming. I wonder if other measurements like DC and the average etc. calculated from them are also only performed for a part of the measured data.
Besides: does this counter count both edges or did you configure it that way? With only one edge counted, I would have expected 100k edges with 10ms/div and 1MHz square wave.
And what is the practical use of such a measurement ? :-//
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At least it's measuring something but this "saturation" is somewhat alarming
For me it´s not.
In fact, I only want to measure what´s actually on the screen.
Practice example, triangle waveform, it´s offset.
To measure it right, the whole screen was needing.
And only one period.
This scope can handle it, so no worries whatsoever.
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At least it's measuring something but this "saturation" is somewhat alarming. I wonder if other measurements like DC and the average etc. calculated from them are also only performed for a part of the measured data.
Besides: does this counter count both edges or did you configure it that way? With only one edge counted, I would have expected 100k edges with 10ms/div and 1MHz square wave.
And what is the practical use of such a measurement ? :-//
Think about tracking math where you can see a demodulated PWM waveform. Or as I wrote before: numerical analysis of a long train of pulses to know the min/max and average. A useful purpose is to measure the time a microcontroller is spending inside an interrupt routine measured over a longer period of time.
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At least it's measuring something but this "saturation" is somewhat alarming. I wonder if other measurements like DC and the average etc. calculated from them are also only performed for a part of the measured data.
Besides: does this counter count both edges or did you configure it that way? With only one edge counted, I would have expected 100k edges with 10ms/div and 1MHz square wave.
And what is the practical use of such a measurement ? :-//
Think about tracking math where you can see a demodulated PWM waveform. Or as I wrote before: numerical analysis of a long train of pulses to know the min/max and average. A useful purpose is to measure the time a microcontroller is spending inside an interrupt routine measured over a longer period of time.
Statistics and Histograms are the more appropriate tools for this.
Performa01 posted screenshots using the these functions earlier in this thread I believe.
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In fact, I only want to measure what´s actually on the screen.
"On the screen" is a bit vague. I'm not talking about offscreen data (as there should be any considerable amount of it if at all). But the measurements have to be done from the data buffer and not from some screen presentation of the data (like former Agilents did). The saturation hints towards a limitation of measurements, i.e. not all the data captured (and displayed on the screen) is used for measurements. This is obviously a different approach to speed up the measurements, but one that can make the deep memory measurements invalid and thus unusable for certain applications.
BTW: did you check this in single trigger or normal trigger mode (not stopped/stopped)?
Statistics and Histograms are the more appropriate tools for this.
But those are also devaluated by limiting the measurements to a certain amount. Is this threshold (200k) at least documented somewhere?
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At least it's measuring something but this "saturation" is somewhat alarming. I wonder if other measurements like DC and the average etc. calculated from them are also only performed for a part of the measured data.
Besides: does this counter count both edges or did you configure it that way? With only one edge counted, I would have expected 100k edges with 10ms/div and 1MHz square wave.
And what is the practical use of such a measurement ? :-//
Think about tracking math where you can see a demodulated PWM waveform. Or as I wrote before: numerical analysis of a long train of pulses to know the min/max and average. A useful purpose is to measure the time a microcontroller is spending inside an interrupt routine measured over a longer period of time.
Statistics and Histograms are the more appropriate tools for this.
But where do the statistics come from if the actual amount of data that can be analysed is limited? You keep thinking too much in terms of periodic signals and not in an entire waveform belonging to a test case which you want to analyse. In my world periodic signals are very uninteresting. The whole point of deep memory is to be able to analyse entire waveforms.
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Statistics and Histograms are the more appropriate tools for this.
But those are also devaluated by limiting the measurements to a certain amount. Is this threshold (200k) at least documented somewhere?
Have no idea until I get one and I'm not about to investigate it with a 5kX as it may well be different.
Only Martin and other 2kX Plus owners can investigate the perceived limits to simple measurements whereas Statistics and Histograms are live measurements only constrained by the amount of time they are left to accumulate data and show it in the format they do.
If 'counts' are your thing maybe a 10+ digit counter would be a better instrument instead of robbing valuable DSO display real estate with 6+ digit numbers. :-//
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The pot is full with a delicious soup, everyone is satisfied.
Only one is looking for the hair in the soup that doesn't exist. The one has to buy the soup he thinks there is no hair in the soup, even if it costs 10 to 20 times more than the tasty, cheap soup the others taste.
It's important to know the limits of the instrument you're using, wouldn't you agree? Especially for statistics, it's important to understand the sample size that is the base for the computation. Only then can you know if the instrument fits the intended use.
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Very adult of you to switch to your fake account to support yourself.
Anyway, where exactly are these limitations stated? The only thing I could find in the SDS2000X+ datasheet is the phrase "horizontal measurements can process up to 1000 signal edges within one single frame" - but how does that explain a limitation to 200k edges?
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The pot is full with a delicious soup, everyone is satisfied.
Only one is looking for the hair in the soup that doesn't exist. The one has to buy the soup he thinks there is no hair in the soup, even if it costs 10 to 20 times more than the tasty, cheap soup the others taste.
It's important to know the limits of the instrument you're using, wouldn't you agree? Especially for statistics, it's important to understand the sample size that is the base for the computation. Only then can you know if the instrument fits the intended use.
Reading the data sheet helps and then you can buy a device, there are the 30 or 45 days test period at Welectron. There you can try everything and return it if you don't like it. :palm:
The data sheet is sufficient only if it lists _all_ of the limits of the instrument. But this is never the case. I don't need to buy one myself and go through the hassle of testing every aspect if someone has done that already and shared the results. This is what is happening here. I'm very grateful for this and others will be, too. This is the true value of discussions like this. It's also of immense value for the manufacturers, if they spend the time following.
Nobody here (well, the majority at least) is trying to "find the hair in the soup". This is what you don't seem to understand.
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Instead or arguing about how we disagree in our worldviews, back to the topic..
On both Keysight and Picoscope (I don't have Rigol available anymore), you can set thresholds (on Keysight relative and absolute, on Picoscope absolute) of how measurements are done. So if thresholds are wrong, it won't count properly. Could that be the case here?
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Instead or arguing about how we disagree in our worldviews, back to the topic..
On both Keysight and Picoscope (I don't have Rigol available anymore), you can set thresholds (on Keysight relative and absolute, on Picoscope absolute) of how measurements are done. So if thresholds are wrong, it won't count properly. Could that be the case here?
Of course even a marginally set trigger level will affect measurement results however luckily only rookies make such basic mistakes. :palm:
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Instead or arguing about how we disagree in our worldviews, back to the topic..
On both Keysight and Picoscope (I don't have Rigol available anymore), you can set thresholds (on Keysight relative and absolute, on Picoscope absolute) of how measurements are done. So if thresholds are wrong, it won't count properly. Could that be the case here?
Of course even a marginally set trigger level will affect measurement results however luckily only rookies make such basic mistakes. :palm:
He means the measurement threshold, not the trigger level.
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Instead or arguing about how we disagree in our worldviews, back to the topic..
On both Keysight and Picoscope (I don't have Rigol available anymore), you can set thresholds (on Keysight relative and absolute, on Picoscope absolute) of how measurements are done. So if thresholds are wrong, it won't count properly. Could that be the case here?
Of course even a marginally set trigger level will affect measurement results however luckily only rookies make such basic mistakes. :palm:
He means the measurement threshold, not the trigger level.
Yes Nico, correct. Thanks!
Tautech, to clarify, it is a separate measurement thresholds, similar to ones you need to set for decoding. On Picoscope, with DeepMeasure you need to be careful to set it right otherwise you get strange results, because auto-detect doesn't always work well. On Keysight, relative thresholds defaults work really well, and with absolute thresholds you are on your own....
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At least it's measuring something but this "saturation" is somewhat alarming. I wonder if other measurements like DC and the average etc. calculated from them are also only performed for a part of the measured data.
Besides: does this counter count both edges or did you configure it that way? With only one edge counted, I would have expected 100k edges with 10ms/div and 1MHz square wave.
And what is the practical use of such a measurement ? :-//
Measuring average data rates for SPI buses, for instance.
Let's say I want to evaluate how much the delay in my PIC18F system is causing because the processor is very slow (relative to better parts) and I have long delays between packets. I can set up the Count N-Edges function to count the number of bit cycles on the clock, and divide the figure by 8 to get the byte rate. This could also be applied to other buses, like I2C where clock stretching of the slave may be used.
It can also be useful in calculating the average frequency of a switching converter that is in pulse-skip mode, as the regular frequency measurement (quite rightly) picks two points and calculates the period between them, whereas you may want to know a more representative average frequency for such a hysteretic function. Knowing the number of edges or positive pulses over a time base you could get an idea of the switching frequency under low load conditions, which can help advise the choice of input/output filter components. This information can also be applied towards PSRR rejection on any LDOs following buck converter outputs.
You *might* be able to use the frequency counter to do this, but that is no good for you if you want to be able to do these measurements in smaller, specific windows when certain events might occur such as a change in power state of your main processor.
This is not a "show stopper" but it's a disappointing limitation.
For anyone testing this function it's important to note that it only does it on zoomed out data sets. If you zoom in and make the measurement, stop, then zoom out, it works properly (because it has a small data set to look at, perhaps), but that is not a typical use case.
Also, this is a minor comment, but it should show "---" or "??" or equivalent if uncertain about a measurement, instead of "0.00".
BTW, I am not a troll, if that comment was direct at me.
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Hallo, also heute bei Welectron bestellt, sollte es innerhalb einer Woche eintreffen :-)
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Hallo, also heute bei Welectron bestellt, sollte es innerhalb einer Woche eintreffen :-)
Hello, so I ordered from Welectron today, it should arrive within a week :-) ^-^
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I hope you told your wife too... >:D
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He said, but it was very challenging :-) But in the end I am happy that I will be happy :-) I took advantage of my birthday yesterday :-)
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Besides: does this counter count both edges or did you configure it that way? With only one edge counted, I would have expected 100k edges with 10ms/div and 1MHz square wave.
Hi,
Both edges.
You can choose between edges, rising edges, falling edges, p-pulses, n-pulses.
For me, it seems to do the right thing what measuring concerns so I´m a little bit confused about the last posts here.
What exactly isn´t right with it ?
I fed in a 1Mhz signal, lower the timebase and it still measures the edges, the lower, more edges was counted.
At the lower timebase pressing stop and zooming in, still the measure works showing of course less edges.
In my opinion, it´s normal behaviour.
If I understand Tom66 right, he´s talking about the opposite that will not work, right ?
Say if you stop at 1ms timebase, you could zoom in but not out to e.g. 200µs ?
BTW: did you check this in single trigger or normal trigger mode (not stopped/stopped)?
If I remember it right, it was in Auto Mode.
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Good afternoon, although I have been following the forum for a while, this is the first time I have decided to comment on a question.
My experience is rather with old equipment and I do not know if the bandwidth specified by this manufacturer is within the "normal". In old equipment that I have the 100 Mhz goes over 200.
I am interested in "upgrading" to a digital oscilloscope and this model seems very interesting and affordable, my biggest question is to buy it 100 MHz or 200 MHz. I use it to play at home because I have been working in electronics and informatics for 40 years (low level programming) and I like to make circuits.
I don't want to spend a lot of money because I understand that these teams age very fast due to the advancement of technology.
Thank you in advance for any comments.
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my biggest question is to buy it 100 MHz or 200 MHz.
The answer is as simple as it can get, it depends on what you will need.
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Good afternoon, although I have been following the forum for a while, this is the first time I have decided to comment on a question.
My experience is rather with old equipment and I do not know if the bandwidth specified by this manufacturer is within the "normal". In old equipment that I have the 100 Mhz goes over 200.
I am interested in "upgrading" to a digital oscilloscope and this model seems very interesting and affordable, my biggest question is to buy it 100 MHz or 200 MHz. I use it to play at home because I have been working in electronics and informatics for 40 years (low level programming) and I like to make circuits.
I don't want to spend a lot of money because I understand that these teams age very fast due to the advancement of technology.
Thank you in advance for any comments.
Welcome to the forum.
As yet I don't think anyone has published the 'real' -3dB point of each model however going on other Siglent models we would expect the 100 MHz model to reach ~120+ MHz, 200 MHz model say ~230 MHz and the 350 MHz model some 370 MHz where at above any of these frequencies only the displayed p-p amplitude and measurement accuracy suffers.
Each should easily trigger and display frequencies well beyond their rated BW albeit at reduced amplitudes.
In a few days I'll have SDS1104X Plus and my 500 MHz AWG back from a mate so I'll post some info about the -3dB point for the 100 MHz model.
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So that's incredible. Yesterday ordered and paid and today I received a mail that is sent DHL. So maybe tomorrow or the day after tomorrow :-) Welectron is really great, including the agreed price :-)
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Yep, they´re fast as lightening... ;)
My brymen dmm came inbetween 36hrs....
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I have to say that while waiting for the oscilloscope, I bought a logic analyzer this week and I am delighted at how great this is for EUR 10. Thanks to him, I was able to view the waveform on Arduino with PWM, where my old oscilloscope could not show a longer waveform due to the 4KPts memory. So now I do not have to rush to buy braces that are too expensive and so far I do not need to decode, but only to display the waveforms. I think this is a good addition to Siglent for starters :-)
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Please write in the common language here, thank you ! :)
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Sorry, fixed :-)
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The logic analyzer will not show true timing transitions for your signal. It probably has 10-20MSa/s sample rate. You need either a DSO with higher sample rate or a professional logic analyzer with over 100MSa/s (You can get vintage used Agilent logic analyzers for around $200 that can do around 400MSa/s)
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Thank you very much Tautech for the comments.
It is a help to establish, within what I need, what I should buy. Any other information will be appreciated.
Greetings and thanks again.
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Thank you very much Tautech for the comments.
It is a help to establish, within what I need, what I should buy. Any other information will be appreciated.
Greetings and thanks again.
You're welcome, that's just what we all do here although at times it does turn into an A brand vs B brand war. :palm:
While these can be useful when those that post and know their equipment well give info about features/capability which is not always crystal clear in datasheets, however it often leaves a lot of garbage for the reader to wade through to find the 'real meat' on a instrument.
Yet the fine detail in datasheets is what we most use to guide us along with the feature set we require.
I'm quite looking forward to when SDS2104X Plus arrives and the next few days when I can explore its capabilities vs higher and lower models from the Siglent stable.
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So it's home :-) It's a nice toy :-) The first impression of the noise, I expected to be a little quieter. I got the impression that he was really quiet. If I compare it to the old Agielent, Siglent is on a similar level. Here first photo :-)
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Yet the fine detail in datasheets is what we most use to guide us along with the feature set we require.
Well, the really fine details are often in the user manual. The datasheet is often influenced by the marketing department a lot.
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So it's home :-) It's a nice toy :-) The first impression of the noise, I expected to be a little quieter. I got the impression that he was really quiet. If I compare it to the old Agielent, Siglent is on a similar level. Here first photo :-)
Nice. :) Will you use a mouse with it ?
Up on the shelf using a mouse for control seems a good solution for your lab.
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I don't know if any mouse and keyboard can be connected, but if so, I'll try and use it. I thought they delivered the keyboard and mouse automatically, but they didn't.
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You can buy them from the money you saved by the discount... ;)
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I don't know if any mouse and keyboard can be connected, but if so, I'll try and use it.
Just using a mouse can help a lot however I'm not sure how useful they are with gestures like pinch to zoom....I really need to try it. :-[
A keyboard will be faster for naming screenshots and labeling traces etc than the 'on screen' virtual keyboard however it depends on how often you'll need to use these features.
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I don't know if any mouse and keyboard can be connected, but if so, I'll try and use it.
Just using a mouse can help a lot however I'm not sure how useful they are with gestures like pinch to zoom....I really need to try it. :-[
A keyboard will be faster for naming screenshots and labeling traces etc than the 'on screen' virtual keyboard however it depends on how often you'll need to use these features.
I guess I would rather solve it via laptop and web server. The one I have tried affects just fine. So I have a keyboard and a mouse :-)
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I don't know if any mouse and keyboard can be connected, but if so, I'll try and use it.
Just using a mouse can help a lot however I'm not sure how useful they are with gestures like pinch to zoom....I really need to try it. :-[
A keyboard will be faster for naming screenshots and labeling traces etc than the 'on screen' virtual keyboard however it depends on how often you'll need to use these features.
I guess I would rather solve it via laptop and web server. The one I have tried affects just fine. So I have a keyboard and a mouse :-)
Got your PM.
For now just get to know your new 2kX Plus as you have a big task just to learn all its capabilities and in time there will be more info about what you ask available online. ;)
I still have to get mine and have a play with it...this weekend I hope !
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So I have come across the first thing I do not know how to set or it does not work :-( I need to show a slow progress of switching PIR sensor and I have a base of 1s, but I need to render the signal in real time and not after a few seconds. I tried to reduce the memory and it did not help anyway, Agilent renders it slowly online.
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Thanks a lot for the answer. I'm glad you have this information and I'm looking forward to it. I do not want to waste AWG testing for the time being, when there is only 30 times the possibility to run.
Next, I'm posting a video of the problem I described above. Can it be viewed as Agilent?
https://youtu.be/Ab7wBVOrEAw
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So I have come across the first thing I do not know how to set or it does not work :-( I need to show a slow progress of switching PIR sensor and I have a base of 1s, but I need to render the signal in real time and not after a few seconds. I tried to reduce the memory and it did not help anyway, Agilent renders it slowly online.
For slow timebase settings you have 2 options, Auto Roll mode activates at settings slower than 50ms/div and dedicated Roll mode accessible with the front panel Roll button.
Use plenty of memory and let the scope decide the depth to use. I always use the max memory setting.
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Perfect :-) Works exactly as I needed :-) Actually better than Agilent. I was worried that Siglent was lagging behind :-)
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Just using a mouse can help a lot
True, but...interesting….I like more to use the touchscreen - Which is somekind of funny for someone who didn´t like tablets….
But it offers a nice test also, I´ll check it on the weekend.
The little response lag between touching an element and activate it - Will it be gone by using the mouse…
Must test it.
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Just using a mouse can help a lot
True, but...interesting….I like more to use the touchscreen - Which is somekind of funny for someone who didn´t like tablets….
But it offers a nice test also, I´ll check it on the weekend.
The little response lag between touching an element and activate it - Will it be gone by using the mouse…
Must test it.
Each to their own however bench layout and space requirements often dictate how/where you might use and place a scope.
SDS5054X used exclusively with a mouse and keyboard:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=944252)
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So tidy just got twice a year:-D Very beautiful
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So tidy just got twice a year:-D Very beautiful
That's not my bench by any chance ! :palm:
It's a customers bench when he was part way through setting it up for the new job he had. Nice his new boss let him buy some nice tools. :)
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So tidy just got twice a year:-D Very beautiful
That's not my bench by any chance ! :palm:
It's a customers bench when he was part way through setting it up for the new job he had. Nice his new boss let him buy some nice tools. :)
:-DD Was he waiting to set the nice ones up? Just kidding.
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So tidy just got twice a year:-D Very beautiful
That's not my bench by any chance ! :palm:
It's a customers bench when he was part way through setting it up for the new job he had. Nice his new boss let him buy some nice tools. :)
:-DD Was he waiting to set the nice ones up?
Yeah not impressed with the soldering gear he selected when it might've been Metcal or Pace.
Just kidding.
I'm not ! :P
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Yea, an 888 definitely looks out of place. The Hakko hot air units also aren't anything to write home about. The fume extractor is ok though.
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To transport my siglent safety to work ( train, bus) and to keep it away from dust, I´ve just bought this here:
https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00H25JMPK/ref=pe_3044161_185740101_TE_item (https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00H25JMPK/ref=pe_3044161_185740101_TE_item)
Hope, I´ve choosed the right size - I hate sending things back... ;)
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Hope, I´ve choosed the right size - I hate sending things back... ;)
Probably too small as you also have to store power cable, probes etc. and you want to have enough foam protection around the scope. I guess I would've bought the type 5000 instead.
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Does anyone know if this scope is capable of recording a video of the screen for some period of time (to a usb stick, for example)?
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The only scope I know that can record video is the micsig.
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Yea, any scope with a web interface you'll be able to record a video even if it's not an explicit feature.
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Maybe someone has an even simpler suggestion.
Videocam. ;)
I guess I would've bought the type 5000 instead.
Hm-hm....makes me nervous, case should arrive in the next hours.
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Does anyone know if this scope is capable of recording a video of the screen for some period of time (to a usb stick, for example)?
Real actual use case ?
There might be more than one way of skinning this cat. ;)
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case should arrive in the next hours.
Yepp, it´s too small - The siglent fits but without any space...Return to sender and buying the next greater version.
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New arrival but too busy for a bit to even unbox it. ::)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=946538)
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Hello Tautech,
Maybe it would be a time now to make a full review of this scope, no ? ;D
I wait for this, but nothing appear yet, i saw only commercial short movies...
It seems that would interest lot of people here.
(even if, i know, somebodies tell that it's "same" as SDS5000).
Frex
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Even if I preferred to buy another model, I find this oscilloscope very interesting and I also don't understand why there is no review on this one.
Siglent could sell a lot more if there was a little more advertising on this model.
I don't know the numbers but Rigol must sell tons of MSO5000, and at the same time, apart from this topic, nobody knows how perform the SDS2000X+
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Hello Tautech,
Maybe it would be a time now to make a full review of this scope, no ? ;D
Frex
Not by me sorry as it might seem biased. ;)
Plus as yet only some 30 mins have been spent with it and it's still getting to know me. :)
Even if I preferred to buy another model, I find this oscilloscope very interesting and I also don't understand why there is no review on this one.
Siglent could sell a lot more if there was a little more advertising on this model.
Most unfortunate was the release timing just before the Chinese Spring festival and then to have a further 2 weeks lockdown due to the virus before more units could be manufactured and shipped to satisfy the apparent demand. Add to this the current shipping delays and it all couldn't have been planned much worse. >:(
It is an interesting DSO, very like the SDS5000X (yes I have both) with a wealth of capability and in the short time playing with it quite intuitive to use ....but I already have some 5000X experience to call on. ;)
A local YouTuber will have this one soon to satisfy curiosities. :)
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Some investigations of the inbuilt 50 MHz AWG sine wave at max p-p output and max frequency into 50 ohms.
Peak hold 2Mpts FFT with markers on harmonics.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=946610)
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New arrival but too busy for a bit to even unbox it. ::)
Have you decontaminated it? ?
It is an interesting DSO, very like the SDS5000X (yes I have both) with a wealth of capability and in the short time playing with it quite intuitive to use ....but I already have some 5000X experience to call on. ;)
Since they run the same software they should look and feel pretty much the same.
I think that is a great bonus for the SDS2k+.
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New arrival but too busy for a bit to even unbox it. ::)
Have you decontaminated it? ?
Oh hell and I've been opening Siglent boxes all afternoon ! :scared: :-DD
Took 3+ weeks to get here so it should be safe however this one is a low SN# and made back in December. :phew:
It is an interesting DSO, very like the SDS5000X (yes I have both) with a wealth of capability and in the short time playing with it quite intuitive to use ....but I already have some 5000X experience to call on. ;)
Since they run the same software they should look and feel pretty much the same.
I think that is a great bonus for the SDS2k+.
There are a few little things I've spotted are different however as the 5000X apparently will import some of the 2000X Plus FW they are likely to become more alike in some respects. (according to Performa01 early in this thread)
Debug code is the same and USB tricks equivalent too. ;)
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Took 3+ weeks to get here so it should be safe however this one is a low SN# and made back in December. :phew:
Oh, you asked for DHL-Quarantine Shipping ? :D
I've never played with this equipment but I like it. I think it covers a sweet spot very hard to beat!
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Even if I preferred to buy another model, I find this oscilloscope very interesting and I also don't understand why there is no review on this one.
Siglent could sell a lot more if there was a little more advertising on this model.
I don't know the numbers but Rigol must sell tons of MSO5000, and at the same time, apart from this topic, nobody knows how perform the SDS2000X+
Please go to the top of this post. Performa1 has already shown many beautiful things.
Hello,
I saw Performa1's beautifull screeshots !
But It is also nice to see the instrument in video to have a better understanding of its ergonomics and how it performs against competitor on same signals.
If I had no interest in ergonomics or responsiveness, I would have bought a Picoscope.
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I also tried AWG and was surprised that the 10 MHz square wave looked like a sine. Everywhere AWG praise and then this. I am a bit afraid to order AWG a whole new function generator if it would work similarly. Do you have a good experience with a generator or similar that can handle even higher frequencies and is not a wallet killer?
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Can you please post a picture of the 10MHz square wave?
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I won´t believe it, so I have done it too…
And again: On the usb stick there are six screenshots - But if you put it into the siglent and take a shot, it will always overwrite png1 instead of going ahead with png7, 8, etc...
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I won´t believe it, so I have done it too…
And again: On the usb stick there are six screenshots - But if you put it into the siglent and take a shot, it will always overwrite png1 instead of going ahead with png7, 8, etc...
You don't believe it, but right?
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Use a direct BNC connection and switch to 50Ohm.
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This is what the 10MHz square wave of the KMoon DY6800 DDS looks like.
BNC direct connection and 50Ohm were used. The AWG was also used BNC (otherwise perhaps not) and 1MOhm but 50Ohm does not paint better.
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What is the rise time?
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In he first screenshot, you didn´t used the 50Ohm input - I´ve used it, have a look at the pic.
KMoon DY6800 DDS
Well.... ;)
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What is the rise time?
Appx 25ns
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Yes, in the first frame it was not used on the screen, it was used additionally and the rendering is the same except the amplitude. And that's why I ask. is it supposed to look like that? If so, what does it look like at much higher frequencies?
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is it supposed to look like that?
It´s not the scope´s "fault" if you meant this.
With a leo bodnar 10Mhz pulse you get much "sharper" edges, depending on the bandwith of the used scope.
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Yes, in the first frame it was not used on the screen, it was used additionally and the rendering is the same except the amplitude. And that's why I ask. is it supposed to look like that? If so, what does it look like at much higher frequencies?
The datasheet isn't terribly precise about the bandwidth of the AWG, it only says 50MHz max frequency and 125MSa/s. Maybe a 10MHz square wave is already pushing its limits?
Not familiar with the instrument, but it doesn't look like the 20MHz bandwidth limit was engaged?
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Square wave max frequency is 10MHz... and it says <24ns rise time
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With a leo bodnar 10Mhz pulse you get much "sharper" edges, depending on the bandwith of the used scope.
See:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2887404/#msg2887404 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2887404/#msg2887404)
Not familiar with the instrument, but it doesn't look like the 20MHz bandwidth limit was engaged?
As I saw his post, I took my scope and reproduce it, with 50Ohm selected and full bandwith.
The internal awg is simple worse in that case and don´t bother me at all.
We all know there´s no alternative to a stand-alone awg yet.
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We all know there´s no alternative to a stand-alone awg yet.
Sure, but that's still shockingly poor.
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I simply ignore this function.
Maybe some scopes have a suitable awg in-built, but the fact there was no more than 2.5vpp amplitude output level makes it uninteresting in general.
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Siglent is charging a significant amount of money for the built-in AWG and they have expertise on standalone waveform generators, why screw it by building a low quality one inside the unit?
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Certainly rise time for square and pulse waveforms are nothing to write home about as I've checked them at several frequencies and even in pulse mode they remain ~25ns.
However on the BW -3dB point a nice surprise that initially I thought I'd made errors trying to measure.
Yet after many checks of setup of what I was seeing on the display I can inform the -3dB point for SDS2104X Plus is some 185 MHz. :o
Sinewave ex SDG6022X, 50 ohm output and input termination. 600mm unknown quality BNC.
1V level set @ 10 MHz as shown by cursors.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=947188)
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Cheap cable or defective scope? That can’t be right.
How about testing the same setup on your SDS5000X? I presume all bandwidth filters are off?
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Cheap cable or defective scope? That can’t be right.
You're quite right, a cheap unknown cable gives misleading results......lower than for good cables ! :P
1 GHz rated BNC's and 6 GHz N type with adapters also used.
How about testing the same setup on your SDS5000X?
Frequency and levels values checked against SDS5054X SDS5104X for three yes three sine wave generators each capable of 200+ MHz, SDG6022X, SSG3021X and an old HP8654B.
However all results ~+ 5% on 185 MHz for the SDS2104X Plus -3dB point which is darn impressive for a 100 MHz DSO. However until others confirm these measurements all you have is my report, take it or leave it.
I presume all bandwidth filters are off?
Interestly with the 200 MHz BW filter ON in the SDS5054X the result was quite similar which IMO adds to increased confidence in the measurements obtained.
YMMV
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My mistake! I thought your scope was the 350MHz model, 185MHz -3dB point is darn impressive for a 100MHz scope!
I do hope Siglent can improve on the AWG though, this is one area where the Rigol MSO5000 is superior. The 10MHz square wave on it looks decent with a 12ns rise time.
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It's great but it is not impressive in my opinion.
The frontend is able to handle 350Mhz and/or 500 on 2 channels.
Siglent is generous with the BW filter but I think I have read similar results among competitors on this forum.
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I do hope Siglent can improve on the AWG though, this is one area where the Rigol MSO5000 is superior. The 10MHz square wave on it looks decent with a 12ns rise time.
Yes maybe they can or maybe it's some risetime HW limitation IDK.
However the SDS2kX Plus AWG is a 50 MHz unit so I fail to see why you call it inferior. :-//
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Square wave max frequency is 10MHz... and it says <24ns rise time
That would hint a bandwidth only marginally better than 10 MHz for square wave (0.35 / 24ns, 0.015 GHz). No wonder it looks mostly like a sine wave.
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I do hope Siglent can improve on the AWG though, this is one area where the Rigol MSO5000 is superior. The 10MHz square wave on it looks decent with a 12ns rise time.
Yes maybe they can or maybe it's some risetime HW limitation IDK.
However the SDS2kX Plus AWG is a 50 MHz unit so I fail to see why you call it inferior. :-//
Without looking at numbers, It seems that the MSO5000 has better 10Mhz square wave.
Maybe thanks to its better sampling rate ?
I never tried the inbult AWG on my MSO5000
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I don't mind the crappy 10MHz square wave, I can generate a better one that fits my need using a microcontroller... but lack of modulation is a big mistake. They are charging a lot of money for the AWG option.
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but lack of modulation is a big mistake.
I think, it could be realizing by firmware upgrade.
Below the specs of the siglent and rigol built-in awg.
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A Siglent SDS2000X-E just turned up in my lab unannounced.
So they now have the SDS2000X, SDS2000X-E, and the SDS2000X+ :-//
I'm clearly not keep up with the times...
How out of date am I? Judging by the number of posts in this thread, it seems quite a lot...
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Hey Dave,
It would be very interesting if you would do a tear-down and compare it against other scopes on this market segment. There are a lot of good discussions about this scope from a small group of owners, but no teardown as far as I know. I would love to know the construction and the quality of the components in the scope.
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A Siglent SDS2000X-E just turned up in my lab unannounced.
So they now have the SDS2000X, SDS2000X-E, and the SDS2000X+ :-//
I'm clearly not keep up with the times...
How out of date am I?
Only a bit over a year behind:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-e/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-e/)
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It would be very interesting if you would do a tear-down and compare it against other scopes on this market segment. There are a lot of good discussions about this scope from a small group of owners, but no teardown as far as I know. I would love to know the construction and the quality of the components in the scope.
Can do.
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Excellent ! :-+
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Hello, I really want to upgrade my scope now. I am hesitating between MSO5074 and SDS2104X Plus. I am keen to the Siglent after saw Martin's posts. But MSO5074 can be upgraded. So hard to decide now. Martin, can you or tv84 confirm and share the trick？ Thank you!
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Just found a bug in FFT: Cursor readouts (X-axis) are incorrect.
Someone who can confirm?
[attach=1]
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Hi,
Would test it tomorrow and report here.
Martin, can you or tv84 confirm and share the trick？
What trick ?
So hard to decide now.
Keep in mind, that the sds2104x+ costs 500 bucks more than a mso5074.
If this is no problem, well….
The pros and cons between these scopes from my sight I´ve posted several times ago.
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However all results ~+ 5% on 185 MHz for the SDS2104X Plus -3dB point which is darn impressive for a 100 MHz DSO.
Thats interesting indeed but isnt that due to the 500Mhz input stage (2204x) with software controlled band limiting turned on just as 1104x is a band limited 1204x?
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Do you have a conversation to them ?
Since I´ve own the sds2000x+, I´ve tried it two times and still got no answer from them... :--
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Thats interesting indeed but isnt that due to the 500Mhz input stage (2204x) with software controlled band limiting turned on just as 1104x is a band limited 1204x?
Sure, but why limit the band to 180MHz? Its generously 80% over spec. Typically you'd see a 100MHz scope limited to say 120-140MHz, enough to ensure it meets the minimum specs in all use cases. Maybe they realize no one cares at this point.
LMH6518 (https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lmh6518.pdf) has band limits of 20, 100, 200, 350, 650, 700. But I don't know if anyone is still using that IC.
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However all results ~+ 5% on 185 MHz for the SDS2104X Plus -3dB point which is darn impressive for a 100 MHz DSO.
Thats interesting indeed but isnt that due to the 500Mhz input stage (2204x) with software controlled band limiting turned on just as 1104x is a band limited 1204x?
Nope, the SDS2104X Plus I have here is just as it came from the factory so the SW BW limiting is for the 100 MHz version although as you say the inputs are designed for 500 MHz.
So while the analog input path may manage high frequencies perfectly fine the BW setting and filtering stages set the frequency rolloff particular to a model which in the case of SDS2104X Plus as we've found is high for a DSO of this class.
Dave did a related video on how amplitude and BW are controlled in a single chip:
https://www.eevblog.com/2019/07/10/eevblog-1228-do-digital-scopes-have-real-verniers/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2019/07/10/eevblog-1228-do-digital-scopes-have-real-verniers/)
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Hi,
Where do you send your requests to, maybe you send them to a wrong address?
To this one:
https://www.siglenteu.com/contact-us/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/contact-us/)
Maybe your mails get stuck in spam?
Maybe, my adress ended with @gmx.de
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However all results ~+ 5% on 185 MHz for the SDS2104X Plus -3dB point which is darn impressive for a 100 MHz DSO.
Thats interesting indeed but isnt that due to the 500Mhz input stage (2204x) with software controlled band limiting turned on just as 1104x is a band limited 1204x?
Nope, the SDS2104X Plus I have here is just as it came from the factory so the SW BW limiting is for the 100 MHz version although as you say the inputs are designed for 500 MHz.
Im not entirely sure i understood the nope part.
So while the analog input path may manage high frequencies perfectly fine the BW setting and filtering stages set the frequency rolloff particular to a model which in the case of SDS2104X Plus as we've found is high for a DSO of this class.
So what you said there is what i meant, i.e the bandwidth is there but limited by software function,
so the 2104x should, as the 1104x, be able to be uphacked if software enables that i presume, right?
Dave did a related video on how amplitude and BW are controlled in a single chip:
https://www.eevblog.com/2019/07/10/eevblog-1228-do-digital-scopes-have-real-verniers/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2019/07/10/eevblog-1228-do-digital-scopes-have-real-verniers/)
Im aware of that video, i dont see Dave talk about BW only the VGA and its BW is quite flat on all gains. Do the 2104x+ use the AD8370 as well?
Sure, but why limit the band to 180MHz? Its generously 80% over spec. Typically you'd see a 100MHz scope limited to say 120-140MHz, enough to ensure it meets the minimum specs in all use cases. Maybe they realize no one cares at this point.
LMH6518 (https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lmh6518.pdf) has band limits of 20, 100, 200, 350, 650, 700. But I don't know if anyone is still using that IC.
Yep, why leave it at 184Mhz? no idea really. 1104x seams to use HMCAD1511. BW limiting circuitry are unique to LMH6518 while AD8370 dont have that. https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/hmcad1511.pdf (https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/hmcad1511.pdf)
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This is wrong.
Aha.
If this (siglenteu located in hamburg, germany) is the wrong contact, shouldn´t they tell me about it instead of doing nothing ?
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So while the analog input path may manage high frequencies perfectly fine the BW setting and filtering stages set the frequency rolloff particular to a model which in the case of SDS2104X Plus as we've found is high for a DSO of this class.
So what you said there is what i meant, i.e the bandwidth is there but limited by software function,
so the 2104x should, as the 1104x, be able to be uphacked if software enables that i presume, right?
Dave did a related video on how amplitude and BW are controlled in a single chip:
https://www.eevblog.com/2019/07/10/eevblog-1228-do-digital-scopes-have-real-verniers/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2019/07/10/eevblog-1228-do-digital-scopes-have-real-verniers/)
Im aware of that video, i dont see Dave talk about BW only the VGA and its BW is quite flat on all gains. Do the 2104x+ use the AD8370 as well?
Maybe, we'll all know soon enough when a teardown is done.
So what you said there is what i meant, i.e the bandwidth is there but limited by software function,
so the 2104x should, as the 1104x, be able to be uphacked if software enables that i presume, right?
Yes, members here already have these hacked and seem shy on disclosing too much in case the door gets closed tighter. However I have been told it's not as straightforward as the 1000X-E models.
More.....sorry you'll have to get that from other members. :-X
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Hi Martin, yes, I know differences between these two scopes. But I want to know how to upgrade SDS2104X Plus to 350MHz or even 500 MHz, and unlock the software options. I saw tv84 posted the result and you upgraded your 2104 too. But didn't show how to do it. I know the telnet way, but don't have the unit to check. If you can share how you upgraded your 2104, I will be appreciated.
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This is wrong.
Aha.
If this (siglenteu located in hamburg, germany) is the wrong contact, shouldn´t they tell me about it instead of doing nothing ?
So Siglent in Hamburg is correct, but you are using America's email address, take a close look. The hamburger looks very different. Look again carefully.
This adresss is wrong "https://www.siglenteu.com/contact-us/" do they even exist? Is it from the USA?
The link above should work as it's posted on a few of Siglent's webpages but if in doubt use the links provided on the HQ page:
https://int.siglent.com/contact/ (https://int.siglent.com/contact/)
This lists the contact emails for each marketing region.
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A few more minutes investigations..... Power Analysis.
Menu of analysis types:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=949122)
After selecting Switching Loss or for that matter any of the analysis types a probe connection guide for each type is available as below.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=949126)
A further improvement might be to label the guide window with the analysis type. This I will send through as a feature request/improvement.
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A look at Digital.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=949346)
The data display line can be placed wherever you choose with the touch display or a mouse. Digital is much nicer viewed with graticules OFF.
Unlike other Siglent models 2kX Plus has a dedicated Zoom button used for entering and exiting Zoom mode.
In Zoom mode the active timebase is surrounded with a dotted line and we can toggle between unzoomed and zoomed display portions with a press of the timebase knob for adjustments of either without having to leave the zoomed display.
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Hi,
After you could play with it a little bit, what are your thoughts on it ?
Is it the "little brother" of the flagship sds5000 and taking therefore the scond place of the siglent scope hierarchy or are some things "better"or "worser" in comparison, also what older models concerns ?
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After you could play with it a little bit, what are your thoughts on it ?
It's a very nice DSO for the price, well the 100 MHz version is but they jump up $ from there. Still, it has a good range of analytical capability and effectively has 3 UI's with touch, mouse or the physical controls.
Is it the "little brother" of the flagship sds5000 and taking therefore the second place of the siglent scope hierarchy or are some things "better"or "worser" in comparison, also what older models concerns ?
In some ways SDS2kX Plus has the edge on SDS5kX particularly in the front panel layout which has been given more thought and departed a little from Siglent's traditional layout.
Until the feature set if further aligned it's not fair to prefer one UI over the other as there's little reason why they won't in time be very similar.
One does notice how the lesser used Search, Navigate, History and Decode buttons are placed at the bottom which allows for a better front panel layout than SDS5kX for the more often used controls although with 2kX Plus it's not long before one is tempted to try a mouse and soon you find yourself using all 3 UI's and it's nice to have the choice however everyone will have preferences to what suits them best.
How do you find yourself using yours Martin ?
I really haven't spent lots of time with this 2104X Plus but enough to display some level of proficiency when I get to demonstrate it to customers.
All in all 5kX and 2kX Plus are both fairly feature rich DSO's and trialling either for less than a couple of days would do them each a disservice.
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Hi there,
I also made measurements on the SDS2104X +, these are about the same as Tautech's.
RF source: R&S SMT06, 1Vpeak to peak / 50ohm RF (around 4.6dbm), measured 3db points:
C1 = 175Mhz;
C2 = 184Mhz;
C3 = 178Mhz;
C4 = 183Mhz;
and again the complete frequency response from 10Khz to 1Ghz, 0dbm signal on C1 in 50ohm mode
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I think, I´ve already mentioned here:
It would be helpful when the function channel in it´s "box" would show which function is selected and from which source (channel).[attachimg=1]
Edit like this: [attachimg=2]
(Taken from lecroy ws3000/siglent sds3000)
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I made another frequency response sweep, this time with an SDS2354 + with 500Mhz option
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So "we" got "real" 500Mhz scopes... 8)
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Hello,
There are also some bugs with the markers, I think Siglent will fix that step by step...
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How do you find yourself using yours Martin ?
Want to try to use it more with a mouse, somtimes it´s more comfortabler (and more precise) than touch - And you musn´t often clean the screen...
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I made another frequency response sweep, this time with an SDS2354 + with 500Mhz option
Try to show us where you have the -3dB mark.
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Hi there,
I also made measurements on the SDS2104X +, these are about the same as Tautech's.
RF source: R&S SMT06, 1Vpeak to peak / 50ohm RF (around 4.6dbm), measured 3db points:
C1 = 175Mhz;
C2 = 184Mhz;
C3 = 178Mhz;
C4 = 183Mhz;
and again the complete frequency response from 10Khz to 1Ghz, 0dbm signal on C1 in 50ohm mode
Are you using the FRA tool in the SDS2104X+ scope?
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I think, I´ve already mentioned here:
It would be helpful when the function channel in it´s "box" would show which function is selected and from which source (channel). (Attachment Link)
Edit like this: (Attachment Link)
(Taken from lecroy ws3000/siglent sds3000)
Yes adding to the channel tab the name/type of Math by default will be useful however SDS2kX Plus gives us the option to name any/all of the traces on the display using the inbuilt virtual keyboard.
So yes there is room for further polishing but what we have already is sufficient if only we chose to use it. ;)
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Well....
In this case by default was the easier way instead and it shouldn´t be that great thing to implementing it.
Hope you´ll forwarded this.
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Are you using the FRA tool in the SDS2104X+ scope?
Hello,
no, i´m set the RF Source to sweep mode (10Khz to 1Ghz, Step 10Khz, Dwell 50ms) an set the Sds2KX+ to FFT and peak hold
@TV84
the -3db is around 580Mhz
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So it seems that measured BW is a good data point to add to the comparison of (improved) SDS2kX+ vs MSO5000... Some people claimed the 350MHz (improved) Rigol was around 480MHz BW, but that was measured with a pulse. AFAIK no one did an actual frequency sweep and posted it to the forum. But then again, there is a ridiculous number of posts on that model and I probably missed something...
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The SDS2000X+ is very attrative....but the MSO5000 was released 1.5 years ago.
At least 50% of post are related to hacking or how to hack ;D
It costs less, some people here are working on cheap logic probe, 2 x more GSa/s, vertical control for all channels, comes with 350Mhz probes.
The MSO still have some nice feature : better math function I think, HDMI output, more trigger, more wfms/s ( but Martin72 have to measure that for science >:D ).
You have to make the choice according to your needs and priorities, but I'm not sure that Rigol is very worried.
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So it seems that measured BW is a good data point to add to the comparison of (improved) SDS2kX+ vs MSO5000... Some people claimed the 350MHz (improved) Rigol was around 480MHz BW, but that was measured with a pulse. AFAIK no one did an actual frequency sweep and posted it to the forum. But then again, there is a ridiculous number of posts on that model and I probably missed something...
Those that have swept SDS2354X Plus have done so with the 500 MHz option enabled so no contest against any 350 MHz rated DSO.......apples vs oranges. ;)
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So it seems that measured BW is a good data point to add to the comparison of (improved) SDS2kX+ vs MSO5000... Some people claimed the 350MHz (improved) Rigol was around 480MHz BW, but that was measured with a pulse. AFAIK no one did an actual frequency sweep and posted it to the forum. But then again, there is a ridiculous number of posts on that model and I probably missed something...
i posted a sweep here -> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2134381/#msg2134381 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2134381/#msg2134381)
I have the Rigol MSO 5K, an SDS2KX and SDS2KX +
the Rigol really has a lot of functions, 8Gs etc., but somehow the Rigol doesn't run as smoothly as Siglent, it hangs from time to time.
I think it's underdeveloped.
Maybe Rigol makes the MSO5K a nice scope, but it is currently at the bottom of my ranking.
That only corresponds to my experience and opinion.
best regards René
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i posted a sweep here -> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2134381/#msg2134381 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/msg2134381/#msg2134381)
Thanks, I missed that one.
Those that have swept SDS2354X Plus have done so with the 500 MHz option enabled so no contest against any 350 MHz rated DSO.......apples vs oranges. ;)
True. My comment was more from the perspective of current "hack-champion". The MSO5k is still the winner due to base model price plus a few features, but the additional $ to get the SDS2kX+ comes with real HW value and not just a better UI and stability, etc. The spec difference is one thing, but seeing the actual measured BW results posted here makes me scratch my chin a bit more and encourages me to find more excuses to rationalize the extra $ for the SDS2kX+. >:D
I have a fully "upgraded" MSO5072 on my bench now. I've been debating over the past few months about switching to the SDS2kX+ for similar reasons as Martin72 did.
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Those that have swept SDS2354X Plus have done so with the 500 MHz option enabled so no contest against any 350 MHz rated DSO.......apples vs oranges. ;)
True. My comment was more from the perspective of current "hack-champion". The MSO5k is still the winner due to base model price plus a few features, but the additional $ to get the SDS2kX+ comes with real HW value and not just a better UI and stability, etc. The spec difference is one thing, but seeing the actual measured BW results posted here makes me scratch my chin a bit more and encourages me to find more excuses to rationalize the extra $ for the SDS2kX+. >:D
I have a fully "upgraded" MSO5072 on my bench now. I've been debating over the past few months about switching to the SDS2kX+ for similar reasons as Martin72 did.
IMO it's a bit more complex than just base price vs BW hackability as the option suite available should have some bearing on any DSO selected.
Hell if you just need 350 MHz the 'upgraded' SDS2202X-E for $619 can do that. :P
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The MSO still have some nice feature : better math function I think, HDMI output, more trigger, more wfms/s ( but Martin72 have to measure that for science >:D ).
"Better" math....more math - But this could be "corrected" via fw upgrade if siglent want it.
HDMI Output, indeed nice - If you need it.
But you could also use the webserver for presentation so no worry at all.
More trigger….have to look at it.
But it got indeed more wfms/s, up to over 500000 wfms/s in normal mode, I´ve meausered it months ago on work.
Want to take the siglent at work also, but we´re very busy since beginning of the year so I didn´t it so far.
Took a rigol ds1054z at home to measure the wfms/s of the 2k+, but the results were irritating (much less than 120000 and very instable) and I want to measure it again with another scope.
The rigol 5000 is a raw diamond, no question.
But i've been waiting over a year for them to sharpen it into a real diamond.
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X2, I have always thought Rigol put some OK-decent hardware in the MSO5000, but its firmware development is woefully inadequate to support the new hardware. They may be OK in servicing scopes like the 1000Z series, where hardware is simpler, and lower price also results in lower expectation. But they are definitely not remotely ready for prime time when it comes to the 5000/7000/8000 series. Coding quality and testing aside, things as simple as the readme file in the firmware update conveys the quality of the documentations you find in a cheap $80 AWG. The sad part is I don't think Rigol cares, and certainly has shown no attempt to improve.
Rigol should consider just outsourcing its entire firmware development to the western world, and just focus on the hardware and manufacturing. If they understand the concept of core competence in the west, they would have scuttle their firmware and software team and "offshore" the development elsewhere.
So, if I have to choose between the two scopes, I would agree Siglent is the more polished and far better supported brand. Yes, it cost more, but potentially a much less frustrating scope to work with in the long run. To me, it is well worth the extra price.
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You nailed it exactly….
The rigol 5000 could be such a pricebreaker with it´s specs, only rigol itself and it´s software are show-stopping it massive.
Then the siglent 2k+ came along….
Sure it got it´s bugs too and hopefully it will got some of nice to haves in the future - But I´m slightly sure siglent will manage it and bring this thing to a level others could dream about.
Yes, for low-cost models range it isn´t really low cost anymore.
But what you get for 1400 incl VAT, it is worth it- NOW, although the bugs because they´re minor.
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So it seems that measured BW is a good data point to add to the comparison of (improved) SDS2kX+ vs MSO5000... Some people claimed the 350MHz (improved) Rigol was around 480MHz BW, but that was measured with a pulse. AFAIK no one did an actual frequency sweep and posted it to the forum. But then again, there is a ridiculous number of posts on that model and I probably missed something...
Those that have swept SDS2354X Plus have done so with the 500 MHz option enabled so no contest against any 350 MHz rated DSO.......apples vs oranges. ;)
Why have SIG decided to limit the 2104x Plus BW upgrade path to only 200Mhz when the the other 3 can be higher yet all using the same platform? This is stupid marketing , does not increase sales, just cause agony, anger, irritation and violent outrage waving hot soldering irons and throwing solder rolls in the electronicists dungeon! ;)
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2354X-plus.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2354X-plus.html)
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Maybe a little off topic or off the flow of this thread....
Apparently the 5000 can adjust skew alignment to within 10 ps; anyone know what the spec is on the SDS2104X Plus?
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The MSO still have some nice feature : better math function I think, HDMI output, more trigger, more wfms/s ( but Martin72 have to measure that for science >:D ).
"Better" math....more math - But this could be "corrected" via fw upgrade if siglent want it.
HDMI Output, indeed nice - If you need it.
But you could also use the webserver for presentation so no worry at all.
More trigger….have to look at it.
But it got indeed more wfms/s, up to over 500000 wfms/s in normal mode, I´ve meausered it months ago on work.
Want to take the siglent at work also, but we´re very busy since beginning of the year so I didn´t it so far.
Took a rigol ds1054z at home to measure the wfms/s of the 2k+, but the results were irritating (much less than 120000 and very instable) and I want to measure it again with another scope.
The rigol 5000 is a raw diamond, no question.
But i've been waiting over a year for them to sharpen it into a real diamond.
We can say exactly the same for Rigol.
Just wait 3 or 4 years and that's it! ;D
Without laughing, they will apparently release a firmware in a short time to add bode plot and probably various improvements.
Covid 19 will certainly cause delay.....again....so we will see but in the meantime, the scope isn't unusable as some claim.
Webserver vs HDMI...It's not just a question of presentation.
It's a question of use. And on the webserver, the framerate is only 10 frames per second I think.
I didn't look in detail all the triggers in the Siglent.
For me and my use/habits, the shared vertical control are prohibitive.
But to be frank, if I had to choose between those two today, I would probably take the Siglent.
I was just answering to the one who didn't understand why the Rigol was so popular.
The MSO5000 still have some nice feature the Siglent will never have and cost less money.
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So it seems that measured BW is a good data point to add to the comparison of (improved) SDS2kX+ vs MSO5000... Some people claimed the 350MHz (improved) Rigol was around 480MHz BW, but that was measured with a pulse. AFAIK no one did an actual frequency sweep and posted it to the forum. But then again, there is a ridiculous number of posts on that model and I probably missed something...
Those that have swept SDS2354X Plus have done so with the 500 MHz option enabled so no contest against any 350 MHz rated DSO.......apples vs oranges. ;)
Why have SIG decided to limit the 2104x Plus BW upgrade path to only 200Mhz when the the other 3 can be higher yet all using the same platform? This is stupid marketing , does not increase sales, just cause agony, anger, irritation and violent outrage waving hot soldering irons and throwing solder rolls in the electronicists dungeon! ;)
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2354X-plus.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2354X-plus.html)
Because they want you to buy the 350MHz model (or 500MHz) from the start. When upgrades are priced very high, it is because they want to discourage people buying it.
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I just got my hands on a SDS2104X Plus today curtesy of Rob (Tautech), here is the first review of a couple of videos I will do about it.
I will be doing a follow up more detailed review within the next couple of weeks, this is just a first look and checking out the GUI etc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHH4H8Q7IWg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHH4H8Q7IWg)
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I just got my hands on a SDS2104X Plus today curtesy of Rob (Tautech), here is the first review of a couple of videos I will do about it.
When you lost the trigger level line on the display, it was because you were in AC coupling mode for the trigger. The trigger level line is only relevant in DC trigger coupling mode.
Tom
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Argh of course, your exactly right, wish I had noticed that when I was recording.
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"I think it could be upgradeable to 200Mhz"....Yepp and slightly more above. ;)
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https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2354X-plus.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2354X-plus.html)
Because they want you to buy the 350MHz model (or 500MHz) from the start. When upgrades are priced very high, it is because they want to discourage people buying it.
Thank you for exemplify in clear text SIG marketing stupidity! :)
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Id like a 500Mhz 2104x plus as square box with HDMI, mouse and meas inputs, no screen no touch no rubber buttons no nutting
etc all for fabulous 499euro thank you SIGLENT you can do it.
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To transport my siglent safety to work ( train, bus) and to keep it away from dust, I´ve just bought this here:
https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00H25JMPK/ref=pe_3044161_185740101_TE_item (https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00H25JMPK/ref=pe_3044161_185740101_TE_item)
Hope, I´ve choosed the right size - I hate sending things back... ;)
FYI Siglent can now provide a proper hard case:
(https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/IMG_20200312_145539589-100x100.jpg) (https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/IMG_20200312_145146984-100x100.jpg)
https://siglentna.com/product/hard-shell-carry-case/ (https://siglentna.com/product/hard-shell-carry-case/)
However it's only on the US site. :-//
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Nice one, looks nearly similar to mine - Today, the greater one has arrived, will test it later if it´s fitting better…
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It´s fitting better... 8)
Although there´s not enough space for putting the cable/probe into it too.
But it seems, the "original" case from siglent didn´t have the space too.
Apart from this:
This is what I would call an Update (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2969316/#msg2969316)....
Fixing some things and new features - Makes me curious about the first fw update for my siglent. :)
By the way, the fact that if you deactivate the bode plot, the awg will remains to be on, is this bug known ?
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It´s fitting better...
Jepp, see below.
Now I need siglent labels... 8)
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Today I recorded some more footage for the 2nd part of my review on the SDS2104X Plus, I even did a bit of a teardown on it to see what it looks like inside, I took a bunch of photos which I have uploaded to my website in a ZIP file, I thought you might be interested in seeing them, obviously you probably want to see my actual teardown too and I will probably publish that later this week.
Here are the photos: http://www.thedefpom.com/randomfiles/Siglent_SDS2104XPlus_High_Res_Photos.zip (http://www.thedefpom.com/randomfiles/Siglent_SDS2104XPlus_High_Res_Photos.zip)
I have attached a pic of the front end to wet your appetite.
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Nice pics :-+
Full packed pcb…….
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Here a comparison between sds5000, sds2000x+, 2000X main pcbs ( If it´s ok to you to use these pics @ tv84,TheDefpom,EEvblog, otherwise I´ll delete them prompt]
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Defpom takes a deeper look at some features and does a teardown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_cVpH7GLtI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_cVpH7GLtI)
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He "forgot" the acquisition mode "Slow" and "Fast", the difference between them could be nicely shown with the pwm signal of the stb-3 demoboard.
At minute 26:
Dude, you could easily remove the seal in another way... ;)
By using a hot air dryer and carefully lifting one side, the adhesive strength is maintained.
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Defpom takes a deeper look at some features and does a teardown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_cVpH7GLtI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_cVpH7GLtI)
It’s a good review of a scope with a lot to like but no ASCII decoding, really? Surely ASCII decoding is in there somewhere - yes/no?
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It does have ascii decoding, just not on the parallel logic analyser, that is part of the normal serial decoding.
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It does have ascii decoding, just not on the parallel logic analyser, that is part of the normal serial decoding.
OK, roger that and thanks for clarifying. Still not sure why Siglent didn’t include it on the digital channels (maybe they can and will in a future release) but if it’s on the four analog channels that takes it from a show stopper to probably ok.
EDIT: Or maybe ASCII is available for some digital channel decoding, just not parallel decoding?
Overall it does look good, and thanks for the good review(s).
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Hello,
i once measured the adjustment of the channels in relation to 50ohm, looks really good.
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It does have ascii decoding, just not on the parallel logic analyser, that is part of the normal serial decoding.
Just to clarify: you can decode UART/SPI/ etc on digital channels too?
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Yepp...
(hmm….double pic, why…)
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Yepp...
(hmm….double pic, why…)
And to further clarify, with UART, SPI, and I2C on digital channels the Siglent can or cannot decode the signals into ASCII?
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Hi,
I don´t have the logic probes, but I can "simulate" it by doing the settings in the menu, as if I was doing decoding on digital channels, see post before.
And when I´m going to the "Bus Display" menu, ascii is still avaible, maybe he hasn´t found it... :-//
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Hi,
I don´t have the logic probes, but I can "simulate" it by doing the settings in the menu, as if I was doing decoding on digital channels, see post before.
And when I´m going to the "Bus Display" menu, ascii is still avaible, maybe he hasn´t found it... :-//
Looks good. Thanks Martin.
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What about options? Do you think It would be possible too?
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Hi,
What exactly do you mean ?
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Hacking >:D
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Ahhh…. ;)
Well, he should study this thread and answer will be given.
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Hello all .. brand spanking new SDS2104X on the bench, delivered today after a two month wait.
Anyone tell me if and where the Averaging mode resides?
Cannot find it, nor any reference to it in the manual.
Thank you ... Daniel
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delivered today after a two month wait
Wow is it that bad? Where did you order it from? Saelig?
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Saelig. One day short of two months wait.
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Hello all .. brand spanking new SDS2104X on the bench, delivered today after a two month wait.
Anyone tell me if and where the Averaging mode resides?
Cannot find it, nor any reference to it in the manual.
Thank you ... Daniel
Found it.
It's a Math function.
P194.
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2019/12/SDS2000X-Plus_UserManual_UM0102XP-E01A.pdf
RTFM :-DD
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Saelig. One day short of two months wait.
Hmm. I've been waiting about a month for a Siglent SDS2104X Plus from Saelig. So I guess I'm halfway there. It's past the late March estimate they gave me when I placed my order.
Tom
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Siglent NA is shut down due to the virus and there are no shipments going on I heard.
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Siglent NA is shut down due to the virus and there are no shipments going on I heard.
You mean to say enabling our GAS is not essential business?? :-DD
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RTFM :-DD
Yeah, silly me for searching for the word ‘average’ in my downloadable .pdf file. Nothing returned, hence my befuddlement. I’m guessing now that searching for any word would have resulted in nothing found. I’m pleased to find that averaging is supported as I use it a lot in my guitar amplifier design.
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We are better supplied in Europe. We have had stock for weeks at least at Batronix.
With the covid, there may not be many people buying test equipment.
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RTFM :-DD
Yeah, silly me for searching for the word ‘average’ in my downloadable .pdf file. Nothing returned, hence my befuddlement. I’m guessing now that searching for any word would have resulted in nothing found. I’m pleased to find that averaging is supported as I use it a lot in my guitar amplifier design.
For audio, you also have 10 bit mode in Acquire menu, in addition to ERES mode in MATH.
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For audio, you also have 10 bit mode in Acquire menu, in addition to ERES mode in MATH.
Yes, a very nice feature. I am really enjoying using this scope so far. I am a scope junkie. Usually use my Agilent 7014B or one of the twenty Tektronix scopes I own.
Was looking for a nice gain/phase-profile presentation to give my amplifier customers and stumbled on the just-released SDS2000X Plus series with Bode plotting.
I'm adjusting to not having switchable 50ohm inputs. That was the reason I changed my order to the 4-channel version, to have 2 dedicated probe channels and hang 50ohm terminations on the other two channels.
Perfect.
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For audio, you also have 10 bit mode in Acquire menu, in addition to ERES mode in MATH.
Yes, a very nice feature. I am really enjoying using this scope so far. I am a scope junkie. Usually use my Agilent 7014B or one of the twenty Tektronix scopes I own.
Was looking for a nice gain/phase-profile presentation to give my amplifier customers and stumbled on the just-released SDS2000X Plus series with Bode plotting.
I'm adjusting to not having switchable 50ohm inputs. That was the reason I changed my order to the 4-channel version, to have 2 dedicated probe channels and hang 50ohm terminations on the other two channels.
Perfect.
What do you mean " not having switchable 50ohm inputs." ?
It has switchable 1M/50OHm inputs..
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It sure does. I just assumed it was much the same as my cheap Rigol DS1054Z.
Just have to remember to do the switch when probing and set to 10X.
Today will be the first time I get to spend time with it ... figure out where all the bones are buried.
Thanks for the heads-up ...
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Probes….
Want to exchange the super-cheap ones which comes with the sds2104X+.
Do anyone have a advice for priceworthy and usable passive probes, bandwith 350Mhz/500Mhz ?
The Siglent SP2035A 350Mhz probe cost 159€ excl. VAT - One piece... :P
The 500Mhz Version cost 199€ excl. VAT.
Including VAT, 4pcs costs 947€, the 350Mhz Version 756€...way too much for a 1400€ scope.
So I´m looking for alternatives which will cost not more than 100€/each.
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Probes….
Want to exchange the super-cheap ones which comes with the sds2104X+.
Do anyone have a advice for priceworthy and usable passive probes, bandwith 350Mhz/500Mhz ?
The Siglent SP2035A 350Mhz probe cost 159€ excl. VAT - One piece... :P
The 500Mhz Version cost 199€ excl. VAT.
Including VAT, 4pcs costs 947€, the 350Mhz Version 756€...way too much for a 1400€ scope.
So I´m looking for alternatives which will cost not more than 100€/each.
The *****A probes are autosense capable models I believe and not supported in SDS2kX Plus models.
Other possibilities are listed here:
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/document/Probe-Datasheet-V2.0E201912.pdf
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Hi Rob,
I know this sheet - Except the mentioned probes before, the maximum bandwith of the others are 300Mhz.
I would like to have at least 350Mhz probes for my (now)350(500)Mhz scope.
But when there are no alternatives, I´ll go for the 300Mhz versions from siglent.
(Already looked around, there are some "cheap" so claimed 500Mhz probes on the market, but they´re looking suspicious to me)
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Hi Rob,
I know this sheet - Except the mentioned probes before, the maximum bandwith of the others are 300Mhz.
I would like to have at least 350Mhz probes for my (now)350(500)Mhz scope.
But when there are no alternatives, I´ll go for the 300Mhz versions from siglent.
(Already looked around, there are some "cheap" so claimed 500Mhz probes on the market, but they´re looking suspicious to me)
You want 10x fixed or switchables ?
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Probes….
Want to exchange the super-cheap ones which comes with the sds2104X+.
Do anyone have a advice for priceworthy and usable passive probes, bandwith 350Mhz/500Mhz ?
The Siglent SP2035A 350Mhz probe cost 159€ excl. VAT - One piece... :P
The 500Mhz Version cost 199€ excl. VAT.
Including VAT, 4pcs costs 947€, the 350Mhz Version 756€...way too much for a 1400€ scope.
So I´m looking for alternatives which will cost not more than 100€/each.
The *****A probes are autosense capable models I believe and not supported in SDS2kX Plus models.
Other possibilities are listed here:
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/document/Probe-Datasheet-V2.0E201912.pdf
I have Testec TT-HF-212, 300 MHz, very decent quality. I use it with my MSOx3104T, instead of expensive 500MHz probes that come with the scope. Not much difference. I don't trust passive probes over 200-300 MHz anyways..
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You want 10x fixed or switchables ?
Fixed.
The *****A probes are autosense capable models I believe and not supported in SDS2kX Plus models.
Not supported ?
The SDS2K+ got autosense inputs, so I expect it should works with every autosensing probe.
Will test it next week, by taking a autosense-probe from work.
@Sinisa:
Yes, testec I know, we got some of them at work, also MC-Connect aka Staeubli.
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You want 10x fixed or switchables ?
Fixed.
The *****A probes are autosense capable models I believe and not supported in SDS2kX Plus models.
Not supported ?
Sorry brain fart. :palm:
OK I'll have a look at what's available from another supplier and come back with some model #'s....but later as busy ATM.
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At siglent.eu I´ve found this one:
https://www.siglent.eu/product/1255135/p6500-500mhz-passive-probe (https://www.siglent.eu/product/1255135/p6500-500mhz-passive-probe)
But it seems, this is really crappy, having only 100Mhz bw ( didn´t find the vote yet, someone placed in eBay)
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Probes….
Want to exchange the super-cheap ones which comes with the sds2104X+.
Do anyone have a advice for priceworthy and usable passive probes, bandwith 350Mhz/500Mhz ?
The Siglent SP2035A 350Mhz probe cost 159€ excl. VAT - One piece... :P
The 500Mhz Version cost 199€ excl. VAT.
Including VAT, 4pcs costs 947€, the 350Mhz Version 756€...way too much for a 1400€ scope.
So I´m looking for alternatives which will cost not more than 100€/each.
Just pick up some used ones off eBay or similar. You normally can get 500 MHz top brand probes for 50 dollars. Which is 1/6 to 1/3 of the new price of the same models. Make sure you see a photo of the tip or ask though.
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Martin72, i also looked for fixed 10x probes. I tried P6500 which are said to have very good price/performance. Basically a copy of Tektronix. I compared them with Tektronix P6139B. P6139B is perfect for me, the frequency response is flat to 500MHz.
P6500 have a peak arround 250MHz, they are definitely worth the money (below 50€ i think). But to me they degrade the performance of this great scope. Some say these can be fine-tuned to improve the performance. I had them for testing, tuning would need to remove the self-adhesive label, so i did sent them back.
On eBay one can get P6139B for 100 to 150€ /pcs, especially if you buy a set of 4. There is also the previous model P6139A, some prefere the mechanical construction of this older one.
The compensation range of both P6500 and P6139B match this scope input capacitance.
Autosensing of SDS2000X+ is compatible with Tekprobe1 interface of above probes, so you get automatic 10x switching.
My SDS2000X+ has a autosensing bug: it does not update probe status after power off/on, if probe disconnected during power off
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Just pick up some used ones off eBay or similar. You normally can get 500 MHz top brand probes for 50 dollars.
I strongly recommend against buying used generic probes. Nobody sells their good probes. Special probes like low-Z, active and current probes are a different story (which can be a hit & miss too). Remember generic probes are consumables. There are many reputable brands which sell good probes for decent prices so there is no need to make do with someone else's junk.
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I tried P6500 which are said to have very good price/performance.
As I mentioned before, someone has done a vote with tests in eBay with poor results - It got 100Mhz at -3dB, with some additional adjustments he could took it a little bit above 100Mhz.
Will search for this.
Nobody sells their good probes.
Exception: Vendors of used equipments in general.
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Hey Martin72, for 500Mhz, my go-to probe is the Keysight N2873A, very good for probing around.
https://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1661717-pn-N2873A/passive-probe-101-500-mhz-13-m?nid=-32557.898995&cc=US&lc=eng (https://www.keysight.com/en/pd-1661717-pn-N2873A/passive-probe-101-500-mhz-13-m?nid=-32557.898995&cc=US&lc=eng)
Price is on the higher side if you buy it as an accessory separately, but it is something you could keep with you as you upgrade scopes. I do not trust no-name probes, you just don’t know what you get and what the real spec is, last thing I need is unexpected measurement error due to cheap probes in the middle of a project.
I also agree with nctnico to avoid used probes, you just don’t know what you get from the pictures, most sellers also do not guarantee performance.
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The high end P**** probes I would have no issues with as Pioneer have been in the probe business for decades.
Others that are certainly worth considering are from Pintek Taiwan as they too have been building probes for years.
10x readout probes:
CP-3351R (350MHz)
CP-3501R/pro (500MHz)
CP-3601R (600MHz, Precision)
Some others from their selection:
http://www.pintek.com.tw/files/pintek/test_probe-front-951025.jpg (http://www.pintek.com.tw/files/pintek/test_probe-front-951025.jpg)
As always high BW passive probes and tuning their HF step response is problematic without an appropriate signal source.
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@NoisyBoy:
Thanks for your advice!
I also agree with nctnico to avoid used probes, you just don’t know what you get from the pictures, most sellers also do not guarantee performance.
Normally I would agree to him too, but...
What performance could be lost on a passive probe...
Apart from this, I wouldn´t buy used ones in eBay.
With simply reason, I want to buy fourth at the same time, not one for one in a month, year...
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Stäubli also makes some decent probes(maybe they're rebranded, I can't say). I usually buy their 500MHz probes and they seem pretty decent and last a long while. The cables themselves are not very compliant but far from bad. With the 300MHz probes that came with my RTB2004 I got a rise time of 1.06ns, compared to the Stäubli which were 815ps.
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@NoisyBoy:
I also agree with nctnico to avoid used probes, you just don’t know what you get from the pictures, most sellers also do not guarantee performance.
Normally I would agree to him too, but...
What performance could be lost on a passive probe...
Not performance perse but broken wires, broken housings, bad tips, contact problems, etc. Everything you don't want in a probe.
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Probes aside, congrats for owning a 500 MHz capable scope.
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Probes aside, congrats for owning a 500 MHz capable scope.
Hack already in the making?
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Probes aside, congrats for owning a 500 MHz capable scope.
Hack already in the making?
4 days after Martin got his and 10 days after worldwide release.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2887364/#msg2887364 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2887364/#msg2887364)
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Just pick up some used ones off eBay or similar. You normally can get 500 MHz top brand probes for 50 dollars.
I strongly recommend against buying used generic probes. Nobody sells their good probes. Special probes like low-Z, active and current probes are a different story (which can be a hit & miss too). Remember generic probes are consumables. There are many reputable brands which sell good probes for decent prices so there is no need to make do with someone else's junk.
Not true. There is always tons of surplus, companies go out of business constantly... You can throw your money away if you want though. I have gear worth 100K plus that I can tell you I didn't pay anything like full price for. Probes aren't special. Yes they can be DOA but when you can buy 6 for the price of 1 its not hard to win. They are pretty trivial to test for function.
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Hello,
i bought 4x Keysight N2843A (new, with luck 40$ per probe) on ebay, there is not much money from time to time.
These are fixed 500Mhz, 10x probes with 700ps rise time and are recognized by the SDS2000X+.
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Probes aside, congrats for owning a 500 MHz capable scope.
Hack already in the making?
4 days after Martin got his and 10 days after worldwide release.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2887364/#msg2887364 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2887364/#msg2887364)
But it's not public yet, right?
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Right.
@KeBeNe:
Hm...…. :D
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Just pick up some used ones off eBay or similar. You normally can get 500 MHz top brand probes for 50 dollars.
I strongly recommend against buying used generic probes. Nobody sells their good probes. Special probes like low-Z, active and current probes are a different story (which can be a hit & miss too). Remember generic probes are consumables. There are many reputable brands which sell good probes for decent prices so there is no need to make do with someone else's junk.
Not true. There is always tons of surplus, companies go out of business constantly...
But those probes are new. You can probably get a nice deal on new probes from a liquidation or inventory sale. However, I was writing about used probes. Unless a probe comes in a sealed package I consider it broken. And probes are not so trivial to test. A broken wire or poor contact can act up in many strange ways. I've been down that road too many times. Where did my signal go?
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Just pick up some used ones off eBay or similar. You normally can get 500 MHz top brand probes for 50 dollars.
I strongly recommend against buying used generic probes. Nobody sells their good probes. Special probes like low-Z, active and current probes are a different story (which can be a hit & miss too). Remember generic probes are consumables. There are many reputable brands which sell good probes for decent prices so there is no need to make do with someone else's junk.
Not true. There is always tons of surplus, companies go out of business constantly...
But those probes are new. You can probably get a nice deal on new probes from a liquidation or inventory sale. However, I was writing about used probes. Unless a probe comes in a sealed package I consider it broken. And probes are not so trivial to test. A broken wire or poor contact can act up in many strange ways. I've been down that road too many times. Where did my signal go?
I agree with Nico on this one.. Top brand means nothing if you don't know the state of it. If you have capability to test and characterise them you can use any probe, even the cheapest ones if tested good..
Those cheap probes that come with Rigol DS1054Z had problematic 1x/10x switch that would go bad, but until they broke, signal wise they were very good and better than spec....
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Saelig. One day short of two months wait.
I wonder if they received a batch and have any left in stock. I have been thinking about ordering one one, but I do not want to have an order hanging. I asked for the forum discount code days back, but no one sent me a PM.
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I wonder if they received a batch and have any left in stock. I have been thinking about ordering one one, but I do not want to have an order hanging. I asked for the forum discount code days back, but no one sent me a PM.
On March 11 I ordered one from Saelig and so far no scope, and no word from Saelig on when it might arrive. When I placed the order they said late March for delivery.
So it is unlikely they have any stock on hand.
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No new toy to play :'( :(
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Saelig. One day short of two months wait.
I wonder if they received a batch and have any left in stock. I have been thinking about ordering one one, but I do not want to have an order hanging. I asked for the forum discount code days back, but no one sent me a PM.
Incoming !
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Looking to get one of these to replace my 1202x+.
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2104X+ on order from Welectron. They have stock and were able to deliver at a price lower than I could find in the U.S. No stock here for a while it seems . Should have this in few days. If I can just get TV to share the "update"...
BTW my 1202X+ is for sale if anyone is interested.
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2104X+ on order from Welectron. They have stock and were able to deliver at a price lower than I could find in the U.S. No stock here for a while it seems . Should have this in few days. If I can just get TV to share the "update"...
BTW my 1202X+ is for sale if anyone is interested.
Cheaper than saelig with the eevblog discount? Can you share how you got it?
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Hi,
This is what I´ve found out by welectron:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2942394/#msg2942394 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2942394/#msg2942394)
Total 7% off, maybe he got a special offer apart from this.
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Don't forget the custom, it is a pretty good odd that custom will send you a duty bill for importing the scope.
Warranty coverage is another item to consider, I am not sure how SIGLENT NA handles warranty, but many brands do not warrant “grey market” purchases - as in any purchase outside its regional dealer network. Cameras is a great example, none of the big brands provide warranty for grey market goods that are often sold at a discount.
Just something to consider before buying overseas.
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I sent them an email asking for best price delivered to my address in the U.S. They beat the Saelig price including EEVBlog discount by a good dinner. Should have it at the end of the week. Very responsive.
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Should of said dinner for two. If I pay duty it’s dinner for one. After contacting Siglent US it was apparent that Delivery times were uncertain. Not worried about service as I’m hoping TV will help me improve it....
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I sent them an email asking for best price delivered to my address in the U.S. They beat the Saelig price including EEVBlog discount by a good dinner. Should have it at the end of the week. Very responsive.
What price did you get? Because my order with Saelig for the SDS2104X Plus is total of $1,436.70 (including 9% CA tax) which is about 1,321.83 Euro (although I am sure your CC will give you a worse exchange rate).
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Oh well, looks like my GAS got the better of me. Sitting on the fence between the MSO5074 and this one was getting uncomfortable. I ordered one from Welectron today.
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I sent them an email asking for best price delivered to my address in the U.S. They beat the Saelig price including EEVBlog discount by a good dinner. Should have it at the end of the week. Very responsive.
What price did you get? Because my order with Saelig for the SDS2104X Plus is total of $1,436.70 (including 9% CA tax) which is about 1,321.83 Euro (although I am sure your CC will give you a worse exchange rate).
You bought a Rigol, a Keysight and now a Siglent in the past few days ?
I found worse than me :-DD
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Finally got my SDS2104X Plus and make it a SDS2504X Plus. ;)
(http://)
Enable telnet: create a file named as 'siglent_device_startup.sh', content 'telnetd'.
telnet user name 'root'
password 'siglent_sds1000x_e' (why not SDS2000X Plus?)
mount -o remount,rw,sync /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
rm /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0/bandwidth.txt
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Hello miyagi, many thanks for sharing your result and congratulations to enjoying good tool. Your scope show now SDS2504X Plus, while other methods result in SDS2354X Plus. Please do you have a possibility to measure your scope fastest rise time, and/or the frequency response?
Some owner share 650ps to be reached with SDS2354X Plus and Leo's pulse generator, or 600 to 650MHz -3dB bandwidth. Of course, with only one channel active of the pairs 1+2 and 3+4.
Would be interesting to know, whether there is still headroom in above values.
Once again, many thanks
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Forgot to mention, with 600MHz bandwidth we are already close to the limit of 2GHz sample rate
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Miyagi you are awesome! I will try this when I get mine later this week. I paid 1148 Euro delivered to my door in the US.
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Finally got my SDS2104X Plus and make it a SDS2504X Plus. ;)
(http://)
Enable telnet: create a file named as 'siglent_device_startup.sh', content 'telnetd'.
telnet user name 'root'
password 'siglent_sds1000x_e' (why not SDS2000X Plus?)
mount -o remount,rw,sync /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
rm /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0/bandwidth.txt
Sorry if it is a dumb question... where do you put the siglent_device_startup.sh file?
And I suggest changing the rm command for mv: mv /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0/bandwidth.txt /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0/bandwidth.txt.bak to keep a copy just in case
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Miyagi you are awesome! I will try this when I get mine later this week. I paid 1148 Euro delivered to my door in the US.
Let us know if you receive a custom duties bill from the courier before delivery. Item is Made in China and it should be subject to tariff, regardless of where it is coming from and the daily allowance is only $800...
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Miyagi you are awesome! I will try this when I get mine later this week. I paid 1148 Euro delivered to my door in the US.
Well, yes, that's without VAT of course, and before import tax and duties.
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Some owner share 650ps to be reached with SDS2354X Plus and Leo's pulse generator, or 600 to 650MHz -3dB bandwidth. Of course, with only one channel active of the pairs 1+2 and 3+4.
Would be interesting to know, whether there is still headroom in above values.
There is not. The HW is the same, whether you call it 2354X++ or 2504X+.
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Miyagi you are awesome! I will try this when I get mine later this week. I paid 1148 Euro delivered to my door in the US.
Wow. That’s an amazing deal. I don’t see them having it in stock for long at this price 😆
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I will let everyone know the final cost with duties. I used Paypal to pay. In the past Ive gotten a bill some weeks after taking delivery of items I have purchased like this.
Looking for step/step upgrade plan. Ive upgraded my SDG AWG using a password free telnet but Miyagi's instructions are a little cryptic. Hoping someone writes a little guide. This community is awesome. Im in awe of the work many (like TV84) have done to "enhance" these products. Its like the folks who crack the ECU's on cars and provide performance boosts. The automotive manufactures are very concerned about Information Assurance (Cyber Security) and make it very, very hard but there are those that do it. Amazing. Thank you.
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Miyagi you are awesome! I will try this when I get mine later this week. I paid 1148 Euro delivered to my door in the US.
Wow. That’s an amazing deal. I don’t see them having it in stock for long at this price 😆
This is the normal price in EU without VAT.
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TK hopefully you can sort out the specifics on he upgrade. You asked one of my first questions: where does the file go? On a USB drive in the external port? Hopefully someone will develop a step/step guide soon.
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I feel like you know who is going to have a lot of work in the coming days :palm:
Can we not all subscribe to offer him a test equipment or whatever he want/need ?
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@twizla, tv84 is right, the hardware is the same. I measured rise time with Picosecond 4015D, it is exactly 650ps. I also attached the frequency response plot, -3 dB point is roughly around 590MHz. If I have better attenuator and settings here, the result should be better, maybe can go up to 600-650 MHz.
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@ TK, yes keep a copy is better. So for whom would want to try this. Here is a simple guide to upgrade SDS2104X Plus to 500 MHz.
1) Create a .txt file and input 'telnetd'
2) Save this file as 'siglent_device_startup.sh' . *** It must be this file name. And file format is .sh***
3) Copy file 'siglent_device_startup.sh' to the root directory of a USB drive.
4) Insert the USB drive to scope, and now turn on the power of scope. *** Must have the USB drive inserted before turn on the scope. And everytime you want to telnet to scope, you need to have the USB inserted before turn on it.***
5) After turn on scope with USB inserted, set scope LAN configuration as DHCP
6) Open a command window on PC, write 'telnet +IP address of your scope'
7) Now it requires user name and password.
User name: 'root'
Password: 'siglent_sds1000x_e'
8) After log in, write commands:
mount -o remount,rw,sync /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
rm /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0/bandwidth.txt *** or as TK suggested, you can use another command to have a copy of this file just in case**
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@twizla, tv84 is right, the hardware is the same. I measured rise time with Picosecond 4015D, it is exactly 650ps. I also attached the frequency response plot, -3 dB point is roughly around 590MHz. If I have better attenuator and settings here, the result should be better, maybe can go up to 600-650 MHz.
Many thanks miyagi. I have measured exactly same values of 650ps and 600MHz. This is than the frontend bandwidth, with all low-pass elements disabled.
I dont know how implemented, likely a set of RC lowpass, they limit the BW steps 100/200/350MHz.
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You are welcome, twizla. I guess it's implemented in chips.
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Maybe only probes are different?
I've bought SDS2104X Plus and I've four 200MHz probes, so I suppose it can be the only difference between 100MHz and 350/500MHz version.
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Thank you so much my friend. Your instructions are perfect. As soon as mine shows up I will make this improvement. Do you know the correct .txt file to reference to turn on the other options?
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I received my scope today. Three days after ordering from Germany. Excellent service. Sadly Miyagi's update method did not work. I get a refused connection when I try to TELNET in with Putty. The scope can see the startup.sh file that has the telnetd but I dont think its reading it on startup. Any thoughts?
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Are you using the full name siglent_device_startup.sh or just startup.sh?
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I used the full name as specified by Miyagi. I can hit the scope via a web browser so i know its on my network and I have the correct IP.
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I would be glad to hear about your experiences with the scope itself, at the first time. ;)
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I played with it for a few hours. Its a very impressive instrument. Coming from a non-touch screen (1202X+) its a revelation. I love the touch control and its very responsive. Its going to take me a bit to get used to the menu structure though. I do need the I2S decoding as I do a lot of digital audio work. The FFT is actually better than I thought. I have a dedicated audio interface for analog signal capture (RTX 6001) that runs FFT's on the PC. Overall Im very happy I just want to get it all the goodies working ...
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"Problem" is, except the bandwith, you already have all the goodies in trial versions on board. 8)
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Martin, Of course you are correct. The bandwidth is the big "prize".
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I used the full name as specified by Miyagi. I can hit the scope via a web browser so i know its on my network and I have the correct IP.
It might not be opening standard port 23 for telnet. @Miyagi, do you know the port number for telnet connection?
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Anybody able to make Miyagi's technique work?
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Anybody able to make Miyagi's technique work?
Try telnet to port 5024
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That got me right in no password. Hmm. Should I try the scripts now?
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tried his scripts, did not effect any change. Bummer.
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Looks like this port is SCPI interface. Well at least I know I can telnet it to that.
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Where's TV84 when you need him....
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I think TV84 is in Europe and probably sleeping at this moment
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Looks like this port is SCPI interface. Well at least I know I can telnet it to that.
You can try running nmap on your PC/laptop to check which ports are opened on the scope
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I used the full name as specified by Miyagi. I can hit the scope via a web browser so i know its on my network and I have the correct IP.
What's your version? Maybe they closed the hole?
Are you using windows to create the file? Make sure that Windows doesn't add an extra file extension.
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The port number for telnet is 23. Be sure the siglent_device_startup.sh file content is telnetd. The file must be in USB root directory, and USB should be inserted to scope, before turn on the scope.
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... I do need the I2S decoding as I do a lot of digital audio work. ...
Can the four channels be used with the logic analyzer, without the special probe?
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... I do need the I2S decoding as I do a lot of digital audio work. ...
Can the four channels be used with the logic analyzer, without the special probe?
Not as such.
You can use the 4 analog channels and the 16 LA channels all together but things are getting crowded and overlain.
Decoding is available for LA and/or the analogue channels however at this time ASCI results missing for LA decoding.
As yet only the release firmware has been available but we expect some improvements in the first post release FW.
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Where's TV84 when you need him....
Maybe he has a life apart from hacking scope and he doesn't answer all the insistent demands ?
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Looks like, if all goes to plan, I'll have an SDS2104X+ delivered by DHL in the next few hours! ^-^
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I was of course just kidding about TV 84. He’s brilliant and an incredible contributor to this community.
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My scope came with 1.3.5R3 firmware which is the latest (and only version) on the web site.
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Yepp,
Mine too ( bought in january).
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OK I got it to work! I reformatted the USB drive. A fresh format seem to do the trick. Upgraded just fine. Model now shows 2504X+. Many thanks Miyagi for this. You rock. Now to get busy.
One of the only good things about the stay-at-home is Im having more time to tinker with my next audio projects. Working on a small, high power, high performance GaN amplifier at the moment. Coming soon...
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Model now shows 2504X+
That´s interesting... 8)
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Does miyagi's hack open all the options or only the bandwidth?
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Only BW. He has scripts to reset the other options to 30X when needed... Would be nice to make them permanent but perhaps in a future "upgrade"
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Here are Miyagi's scripts (with his permission) to reset the options;
After telent, and login. Input these commands:
mount -o remount,rw,sync /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
rm /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/options_mso_times.txt
rm /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/options_awg_times.txt
rm /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/options_flx_times.txt
rm /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/options_canfd_times.txt
rm /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/options_i2s_times.txt
rm /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/options_1553b_times.txt
rm /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/options_pa_times.txt
I have not tried this (yet) but I assume they will work fine. At least with this firmware.
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Don´t forget to post your experiences with your new siglent - Any comment from a real owner would be useful.. :)
Looks like, if all goes to plan, I'll have an SDS2104X+ delivered by DHL in the next few hours!
And does it arrive ?
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Don´t forget to post your experiences with your new siglent - Any comment from a real owner would be useful.. :)
Looks like, if all goes to plan, I'll have an SDS2104X+ delivered by DHL in the next few hours!
And does it arrive ?
No, the delivery was rescheduled, to after the holidays :(
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Fu**…
Same here, waiting for an programmer, ordered over a week ago.
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Someone correct me if I am wrong but it looked like there are two crystals on the main board and no oscillators? I think one was 24 MHz near some USB stuff and the other was 12 MHz near a heat sinked package? If there was a reference clock I might choose to replace it with something better but alas if it is just crystals that gets a bit trickier though not impossible.
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Does it work to just remove write access to the options files rather than deleting them to reset?
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If there was a reference clock I might choose to replace it with something better
Timebase accuracy is 1ppm, so why replacing.
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Because you can get 50 ppb for 25 dollars. Which is 20x better. Scopes aren't very good at vertical accuracy so really good horizontal accuracy can be exploited for measurements if you get clever. 1 ppm is okay, my regular scope at work is 20 ppb. You have a rise time at 500 MHz of about 700 ps, but you only know the time axis to 1 us/s. That's sort of boarder line if you are trying to find the time between pulses that occur slowly which is something people do when say counting signal photons arrival times in labs. There are plenty of other examples out there where what you care about is time not amplitude and for that just 20-50 dollars extra on the BOM can improve performance by 20-50x what this unit has.
(I do note this is all initial accuracy based just on stability of the unit rather than drift, though my scope at work is 20 ppb the mods would be more complicated for calibration).
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Because you can get 50 ppb for 25 dollars. Which is 20x better. Scopes aren't very good at vertical accuracy so really good horizontal accuracy can be exploited for measurements if you get clever. 1 ppm is okay, my regular scope at work is 20 ppb. You have a rise time at 500 MHz of about 700 ps, but you only know the time axis to 1 us/s. That's sort of boarder line if you are trying to find the time between pulses that occur slowly which is something people do when say counting signal photons arrival times in labs. There are plenty of other examples out there where what you care about is time not amplitude and for that just 20-50 dollars extra on the BOM can improve performance by 20-50x what this unit has.
What you on scope need is low jitter. Absolute timing error of 1 ppm on timebase set to 1us is 1ps. Unless you sample at 1 terasamples/s, that is not a problem..
You measure precision time intervals with precision time interval counters, not with inexpensive advanced entry level scopes. That Lecroy (I'm going to presume) you talk about buys you cheap apartment....
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At work our labs are equipped with the latest Keysight Infinium DSO’s that can sample RF to beyond 20GHz. They are not necessarily intuitive to use and you could purchase a really nice 911 for what they cost. I’m actually blown away by what 1000 ish dollars buys in a scope. Making some measurements yesterday I was struck by how responsive the scope is and how well it makes basic measurements. Its also a crap ton faster than those Keysights to boot which are more like; turn on, go get coffee and come back.
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On my 2000x plus, it's 0.2ppm! :-+
Modified ?
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A specification is usually given over a time and temperature range. 1ppm as specification for the first year is actually a pretty good spec and AFAIK better than anything else in that price range. For a LeCroy, this is something to expect in the mid range series (i.e. not the WS3000Z) and for R&S even the RTM3K has 2.5ppm and you'd need to get an RTA4K to get 0.5ppm (after calibration).
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Yepp,
Rigol MSO5000 for example got 10ppm(without further informations), -7000 2.5ppm, -8000 1ppm, WS3000Z 10ppm, WR4000HD 2.5ppm, above these models down to 1ppm and less.
No, everything still original.
How did you measure it ?
Edit: correction of the timebase acc. from mso5000 - 25ppm was siglent sds1104x-e
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Because you can get 50 ppb for 25 dollars. Which is 20x better. Scopes aren't very good at vertical accuracy so really good horizontal accuracy can be exploited for measurements if you get clever. 1 ppm is okay, my regular scope at work is 20 ppb. You have a rise time at 500 MHz of about 700 ps, but you only know the time axis to 1 us/s. That's sort of boarder line if you are trying to find the time between pulses that occur slowly which is something people do when say counting signal photons arrival times in labs. There are plenty of other examples out there where what you care about is time not amplitude and for that just 20-50 dollars extra on the BOM can improve performance by 20-50x what this unit has.
What you on scope need is low jitter. Absolute timing error of 1 ppm on timebase set to 1us is 1ps. Unless you sample at 1 terasamples/s, that is not a problem..
You measure precision time intervals with precision time interval counters, not with inexpensive advanced entry level scopes. That Lecroy (I'm going to presume) you talk about buys you cheap apartment....
Sometimes you need the height and the delta of pulses. The scope I'm referencing has a OCXO, it is an RTO2000. Its worth something like 60,000.
(Edit though I note I got them to sell it to me for 22,000 when it was purchased, I try to save my company money, I doubt anyone pays the 60k list).
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A specification is usually given over a time and temperature range. 1ppm as specification for the first year is actually a pretty good spec and AFAIK better than anything else in that price range. For a LeCroy, this is something to expect in the mid range series (i.e. not the WS3000Z) and for R&S even the RTM3K has 2.5ppm and you'd need to get an RTA4K to get 0.5ppm (after calibration).
Certainly for aging 1 ppm is pretty good. I would like the specs they give to be a lot more detailed though. I like knowing how the measurement was determined. I'd love to see the phase noise spec or at least a jitter one. I didn't see an aperture uncertainty either. Yes it is a lower cost scope and you have to give up some stuff for cost but you also have the option of picking up an used scope for not vastly more with detailed specs, good calibration manuals, etc. The edge this scope might have is speed in the digital domain. Older scopes with similar bandwidth and sample rates can be quite slow to do measurement functions, even if they are just as good or better in their analog design.
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[attachimg=1]
From the specsheet.
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Because you can get 50 ppb for 25 dollars. Which is 20x better. Scopes aren't very good at vertical accuracy so really good horizontal accuracy can be exploited for measurements if you get clever. 1 ppm is okay, my regular scope at work is 20 ppb. You have a rise time at 500 MHz of about 700 ps, but you only know the time axis to 1 us/s. That's sort of boarder line if you are trying to find the time between pulses that occur slowly which is something people do when say counting signal photons arrival times in labs. There are plenty of other examples out there where what you care about is time not amplitude and for that just 20-50 dollars extra on the BOM can improve performance by 20-50x what this unit has.
What you on scope need is low jitter. Absolute timing error of 1 ppm on timebase set to 1us is 1ps. Unless you sample at 1 terasamples/s, that is not a problem..
You measure precision time intervals with precision time interval counters, not with inexpensive advanced entry level scopes. That Lecroy (I'm going to presume) you talk about buys you cheap apartment....
Sometimes you need the height and the delta of pulses. The scope I'm referencing has a OCXO, it is an RTO2000. Its worth something like 60,000.
The question is whether such low phase noise does you any good. The absolute trigger jitter makes it hard to resolve pico seconds anyway and the Siglent has a digital trigger which focusses the crossings in 1 point and thus smears out the pulses allover the place. All in all you don't really need an extremely stable. low noise oscillator in an oscilloscope. Anything which contributes less than a few ps of uncertainty over a time span of 1us is good enough.
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It really depends if you need the absolute time and height of two pulses to continue my example. Consider if an energetic particle hits a detector where the pulse height/area is a function of the energy deposited and I need to know the arrival time of the two pulses (as well as the areas). I can't really do that with a frequency counter because the height might be small (and dispersion might change the area/shape relative to the height) for one energy and large for another. If the accuracy of the time base is 1 ppm, then I know the time scale on the bottom to a fractional accuracy of 1/1000000. In the case of this scope given the sample length is only 200 Mpts, and the sample rate is 2 GSPS, then we have 1/10th of a second maximum capture length.
This means the time precision is about 1000 times better than the accuracy. If you captured a correlation between two pulses with two of these scopes exactly at the limit of their memory then the error in time could be as large as 200 ns between the two scopes in the 1/10 of a second. That's a shift of of about 400 samples between the two units if they are at the opposite extrema of their spec. If however their clocks were calibrated to 20 ppb, then it would only be 8 samples.
In truth the absolutely accuracy is less important in most cases than the stability. If you look at this decay process that's generating these particles again and again, the arrival times can be averaged though still not captured by a simple timer/counter unless you build a custom discriminator for the experiment. This is why the short term stability is important. It really just depends what you are doing with the scope. I do scientific measurements all day, both at home and at work. These tools aren't generally designed for us as we have weird corner cases but generally link all my instrument's 10 MHz inputs to a master when doing time correlated measurements and care about absolute time accuracy.
Anyway you cannot expect all instruments to be class leading, I get that, but it is possible to get better time bases than what is in most scopes for not very much money.
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I think, this "problem" or task example won´t touch any sds2000x+ user...but nice to know though.
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Alternative ways to 'skin this cat' worthy of some study and thought:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-_official_-siglent-sds1202x-e-thread/msg1262719/#msg1262719 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-_official_-siglent-sds1202x-e-thread/msg1262719/#msg1262719)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1182630/#msg1182630 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1182630/#msg1182630)
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I received my scope today. Three days after ordering from Germany. Excellent service. Sadly Miyagi's update method did not work. I get a refused connection when I try to TELNET in with Putty. The scope can see the startup.sh file that has the telnetd but I dont think its reading it on startup. Any thoughts?
Did you pay any import duties to DHL?
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Don´t forget to post your experiences with your new siglent - Any comment from a real owner would be useful.. :)
Looks like, if all goes to plan, I'll have an SDS2104X+ delivered by DHL in the next few hours!
And does it arrive ?
No, the delivery was rescheduled, to after the holidays :(
Arrived late afternoon today. Not unboxed yet.
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Can you use the hack to upgrade the 2 channel version to 4 channels? The hardware is there, isn't it?
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Can you use the hack to upgrade the 2 channel version to 4 channels? The hardware is there, isn't it?
It looks like the 2 channel version only has 2 inputs.
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Can you use the hack to upgrade the 2 channel version to 4 channels? The hardware is there, isn't it?
It looks like the 2 channel version only has 2 inputs. https://www.saelig.com/product/sds2102x-plus.htm (https://www.saelig.com/product/sds2102x-plus.htm)
Oh, thanks.. I was looking at https://siglentna.com/product/sds2102x-plus/ (https://siglentna.com/product/sds2102x-plus/)
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A bill has not arrived for duties yet.
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DHL's website seemed to suggest they would not deliver it until duties were paid if there were going to be any. Maybe others have had more experience with importing such things, but that is how I read it.
https://www.dhl.com/en/express/customs_support/duties_taxes/duties_taxes_receivers.html (https://www.dhl.com/en/express/customs_support/duties_taxes/duties_taxes_receivers.html)
3rd from last and 2nd from last bullets.
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DHL's website seemed to suggest they would not deliver it until duties were paid if there were going to be any. Maybe others have had more experience with importing such things, but that is how I read it.
https://www.dhl.com/en/express/customs_support/duties_taxes/duties_taxes_receivers.html (https://www.dhl.com/en/express/customs_support/duties_taxes/duties_taxes_receivers.html)
3rd from last and 2nd from last bullets.
Yeah that's how they roll for me on the odd occasion I bring a single unit into NZ. Just call their help line with the tracking # and a credit card handy.
You can search their site with the tracking # and see each time it's scanned and normally it gets flagged if there's any import charges due. If they have your info on the shipping label they might even get in touch instead of needing to hunt them out. They might require proof of purchase so have a pdf of the invoice handy too.
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Don´t forget to post your experiences with your new siglent - Any comment from a real owner would be useful.. :)
Looks like, if all goes to plan, I'll have an SDS2104X+ delivered by DHL in the next few hours!
And does it arrive ?
No, the delivery was rescheduled, to after the holidays :(
Arrived late afternoon today. Not unboxed yet.
Unboxing done, it's now on my bench replacing the venerable Rigol DS1054Z. I really like the industrial design, it looks way more professional than the "Chinese Baroque" of the Rigol.
Playing around with the FFT right now. Overall a very nice instrument.
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DHL's website seemed to suggest they would not deliver it until duties were paid if there were going to be any. Maybe others have had more experience with importing such things, but that is how I read it.
https://www.dhl.com/en/express/customs_support/duties_taxes/duties_taxes_receivers.html (https://www.dhl.com/en/express/customs_support/duties_taxes/duties_taxes_receivers.html)
3rd from last and 2nd from last bullets.
My experience with DHL is that they put packages on hold if there is outstanding custom duties and you receive a call from the local office to settle payment before package is delivered. UPS and Fedex deliver the packages and then they send you the invoice.
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No bill has arrived from DHL. I've had the scope since Friday. I really like this instrument. Going to try some Bode plots of an amplifier using the sig gen. So far its a gem.
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No bill has arrived from DHL. I've had the scope since Friday. I really like this instrument. Going to try some Bode plots of an amplifier using the sig gen. So far its a gem.
Maybe there's no customs duties, but I'd make sure that you're not responsible personally to pay some sales tax or VAT in your country...
Since you mention Bode plots - I have a Siglent Wavegen that's craving to be hooked up to the scope ;)
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Looks like welectron is out of stock, SDS2000X Plus is becoming as scarce as toilet paper
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Batronix had stock when I looked a week ago.
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Still in stock at Batronix. Im so close to order one just for testing :palm:
For DHL, I always have to pay before the delivery. So it seems that someone got a good deal 8)
With coronavirus, there may be holes in customs.
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Batronix had stock when I looked a week ago.
Do they have an EEVblog discount?
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Don´t know, but you got the possibility to add a coupon code.
Welectron disclaim to have it on 17.04. on stock again.
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Dear Easter Bunny...
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;D :-+
He´s loving colouring the eggs... 8)
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Dear Easter Bunny...
Not thank you Easter Bunny ? :-//
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;D
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No bill has arrived from DHL. I've had the scope since Friday. I really like this instrument. Going to try some Bode plots of an amplifier using the sig gen. So far its a gem.
Maybe there's no customs duties, but I'd make sure that you're not responsible personally to pay some sales tax or VAT in your country...
Since you mention Bode plots - I have a Siglent Wavegen that's craving to be hooked up to the scope ;)
In the US in most states you are required to pay sales taxes on your annual state taxes as "sales and use" but it is generally not followed by most people who don't even understand the requirement. Some exceptions apply as well about having to pay sales tax even then, though state laws vary (just as state sales taxes vary).
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Nice little case study with a SDS2354X Plus:
https://siglentna.com/application-note/analyzing-gsm-radio-protocol-with-a-siglent-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope/
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Hello,
Little question :
Does anyone know the ADC reference?
Is it the same as on the previous vesions (SDS2000 and SDS2000x ) ?
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ADC08D1000 >:D
I bet this is this one.
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Betting is not knowing…. ;)
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Betting is not knowing…. ;)
So it is why I choose the verb "to bet" instead of "to know" ;D
But Im pretty sure it is this one.
You have one. I'm sure you have a big hammer too or a crowbar at home, so that's the story of a few minutes only.
Go to work Martin >:D
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Betting is not knowing…. ;)
So it is why I choose the verb "to bet" instead of "to know" ;D
But Im pretty sure it is this one.
You have one. I'm sure you have a big hammer too or a crowbar at home, so that's the story of a few minutes only.
Go to work Martin >:D
Maybe it is the same as used in SDS2000X-E also.
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So what do you guys think about purchasing the Siglent LA probe set vs buying a decent USB- based LA? I like having HW based decoding. Im mostly doing SPI, I2S, I2C. Trying to decide whats the best way forward. Any thoughts?
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So what do you guys think about purchasing the Siglent LA probe set vs buying a decent USB- based LA? I like having HW based decoding. Im mostly doing SPI, I2S, I2C. Trying to decide whats the best way forward. Any thoughts?
I have MSO, and being able to correlate analog/digital is very useful. Also DSOs usually have great serial triggers. USB LA have very basic triggering.
SDS2000X+ has a lot of memory so it should be able to capture lots of packets, especially using segments and intelligent triggering.
My experience is that if you need to correlate analog/digital and if you are looking at decoding at "hardware" level MSO is best. Like checking if things are flowing right between components of the system.
If you need to develop/debug "software" side of protocols (data centric, developing and debugging messages itself) than USB based LA is very useful.
But with long mem scope like SDS200X+ (or Picoscope as I have) you probably can do most of what is needed. You can always buy one of those cheapo LA clones and use with Pulseview, for ultra long sequences and decode on PC. I think that would be most powerful combination.
That's my opinion based on my experience.
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I'm pretty much with 2N3055. I almost always use my MSO and only take the LA out when I need more than the 16 digital channels it has. Typically those analog signals are needed too.
One other thing I do is feed scope trigger out to trigger of LA. Then duplicate at least a single signal to make sure I can correlate data. That's usually when I end up needing a lot of logic(sometimes all of scopes and the 32 of LA) and the analog signals. Saves time due to the effort of making all the connections. All my Protos have headers for logic these days or an addon for that purpose
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Thanks guys. Im convinced. Placing order for probe set. They better be really good for that kind of $$.
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@ Sinisa,
Here are the max. frames the siglent can decode (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2943854/#msg2943854)
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Thanks guys. Im convinced. Placing order for probe set. They better be really good for that kind of $$.
It is nice but I agree it's overpriced.
AFAIK it edge connects to what looks like a PCI-e finger socket on the MB then splits into the 2 multicore flat cables.
A custom PCI-e socket plug is used for the twin flat cable.
Unknown if there are active bits in the cable ends where the breakdown headers then connect.
We should do some analysis I guess, even bussing bits of it out with a DMM might tell us lots.
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You have one. I'm sure you have a big hammer too or a crowbar at home, so that's the story of a few minutes only.
Go to work Martin >:D
Mhh…
Normally I don´t like to open functional units ;)
It is nice but I agree it's overpriced.
In this case, rigol and siglent are brothers... ;D
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It is nice but I agree it's overpriced.
In this case, rigol and siglent are brothers... ;D
Nope, not in SDS2kX, SDS5kX or SDS2kX Plus, none of that cheap arsed flat IDE ribbon cable rubbish ! :P
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Rob... ;)
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Still playing around with the instrument, I really like the FFT implementation. It's easy to set up and I totally dig the markers.
I measured a 10MHz Butterworth low-pass filter that is supposed to create a sine from a square wave by suppressing the harmonics and it's really nice being able to just set markers on all harmonics and then see how many dB the most prominent harmonic is below the carrier. The only grief I have that it seems not possible to set the vertical config to dBc instead of dBVrms or dBm. I get the absolute value of every marker and a simple subtraction addition gives me what I need, but it would nevertheless be more convenient to just have marker #1 setting the reference and then listing all other markers relative to marker #1.
Anyway - with the DS1054Z and its toy FFT, I was barely able to see that the highest harmonic was maybe better than -40dBc. With the SDS2000X+, I can clearly see it's -50dBc.
This is going to make my life a lot easier :-D
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It is nice but I agree it's overpriced.
In this case, rigol and siglent are brothers... ;D
Nope, not in SDS2kX, SDS5kX or SDS2kX Plus, none of that cheap arsed flat IDE ribbon cable rubbish ! :P
But it is easy to hack on MSO5000 :)
On higher range, Rigol use the exact same PCI-e connector as Siglent.
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On higher range, Rigol use the exact same PCI-e connector as Siglent.
It would be interesting to understand what connector is being used for the MSO exactly. Regular PCIe / Micro-SAS connectors for example have a limit of 30 to 50 mating cycles. Using such a connector wouldn't be a good choice.
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The connectors have no identification whatsoever. They look sturdy and the flat cables feel "rubber" like
Eric
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The connectors have no identification whatsoever. They look sturdy and the flat cables feel "rubber" like
Eric
:)
Cross posting with more pics:
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Thanks for the pictures. That is the same connector which is used for a standard PCI express slot indeed. That is a rather bad choice. Even this thick gold plated one from Molex specifies 50 mating cycles:
https://www.molex.com/molex/products/part-detail/edge_card_connecto/0877159006 (https://www.molex.com/molex/products/part-detail/edge_card_connecto/0877159006)
Using one or two HDMI connectors would have been a much wiser choice. HDMI also exists in a wider 29 pin B variant. These connectors are made for regular use and can be build to last thousands of mating cycles.
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Mating cycles are indeed an interesting point.
eSATA connections for example got 5000 mating cycles vs only 50 for internal SATA ( what makes sense, once plugged in you leave it plugged in).
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Thanks for the pictures. That is the same connector which is used for a standard PCI express slot indeed. That is a rather bad choice. Even this thick gold plated one from Molex specifies 50 mating cycles:
https://www.molex.com/molex/products/part-detail/edge_card_connecto/0877159006 (https://www.molex.com/molex/products/part-detail/edge_card_connecto/0877159006)
Yes well if we give some thought to the possible configuration used when there are 36 socket connections for 16 MSO channels, would each channel consist of a differential pair ?
Some initial buzzing out suggests there is some active circuitry in both the lead breakout sets and the flat pair cable assembly. All cable ends are not hermetically sealed instead they appear to have a clipped in portion that might need X-rays to determine how they might come apart.
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On higher range, Rigol use the exact same PCI-e connector as Siglent.
It would be interesting to understand what connector is being used for the MSO exactly. Regular PCIe / Micro-SAS connectors for example have a limit of 30 to 50 mating cycles. Using such a connector wouldn't be a good choice.
Hello ntnico,
I don't know what the exact reference is.
It seems to be a regular 36P PCI-E connector.
Maybe the 50 mating cycle are here to maintain integrity performance at max speed ( > 8Gbps )
You can also separate the probes from the scope without necessarily removing the plug but it's true that 50 mating cycle is not a lot !
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Bode plot of the same 10MHz low-pass filter, signal input from separate SDG2042X:
[attachimg=1]
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And this is what proper probing gets you. Q of the filter is a bit high, it seems, there's a visible resonance, but not too bad.
[attachimg=1]
And the FFT of the filter output (into 50\$\Omega\$).
[attachimg=2]
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Hm, where does the peak come from... ???
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Hm, where does the peak come from... ???
The amplitude peak? No idea where it comes from, it should not be there. Something's in resonance here. The filter is designed for 50\$\Omega\$ in and out and if I'm not mistaken, the SDG2042X matches that.
The peak (or rather, discontinuity) in the phase plot is where the phase changes slope at the resonant frequency of the filter.
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This is not a complaint (given the world situation right now, otherwise it would be) but just a warning for people given the comments that Welectron shipped quickly. Clearly there are complications I ordered 10 days ago and while they charged me for the item ~5 days ago they have not shipped the scope yet. Communication takes 1-2 business days to get a reply, Saelig was faster in replies but I think their backlog of orders quite long if any others in the US are looking to get one of these.
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This is not a complaint (given the world situation right now, otherwise it would be) but just a warning for people given the comments that Welectron shipped quickly. Clearly there are complications I ordered 10 days ago and while they charged me for the item ~5 days ago they have not shipped the scope yet. Communication takes 1-2 business days to get a reply, Saelig was faster in replies but I think their backlog of orders quite long if any others in the US are looking to get one of these.
Talk to Marco, he will either give you a good ETA. If you are not happy with it, you can always ask for a refund. I had no problem getting a refund
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Hello thinkfat (and others),
and thank you for your Bode plots screen-shoots.
They are very interesting.
I would have few questions about it :
Does we need to use only the internal generator of the scope to use Bode plot features ?
What is the effective dynamic range of the Bode plot ?
For example, if we test low 4 order low-pass filter at 1kHz, what is the attenuation floor the plot
allow to reach far beyond cutoff frequency ? (-60dB ? -80 dB , more ?).
How many points can be used in Bode plot ? (important to see real depth level of narrow notch filter for example).
I have also another question not really related to the Bode plot, does the "blue-pills" allow to unlock
the MSO function ?
I have for now a Rigol MSO2072A, and i start to think that the SDS2104X Plus would be a nice upgrade... ^-^
Thank you all.
Frex
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Hi Frex,
Does we need to use only the internal generator of the scope to use Bode plot features ?
thinkfat did it with an external awg - It must be from siglent too, then it will work.
What is the effective dynamic range of the Bode plot ?
Depends which scaling you use, max 20dB can be choosen, so plot will displaying down to -140dB
How many points can be used in Bode plot ? (important to see real depth level of narrow notch filter for example).
500 Points.
does the "blue-pills" allow to unlock
the MSO function ?
Yes...
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OK,
Thank you very much Martin.
Frex
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Just ordered mine from Batronix to import, good service and a nice discount, overall comparable to saelig costs to your door with the normal discount, not as good as what welectron was doing though but they are out of stock.
Everyone else in NA was telling me end of May at the soonest and its on dhl so I'll know if i get tariff slapped right away. The CAN FD decoding sold me on upgrading from my hacked SDS1104X-E so not really concerned if i get tariffed or not as this will greatly help increase my applicable knowledge and just consider it an education cost.. i got another 2 weeks of doing nothing in May thanks to covid so might as well make the best of it.
Plan to get the logic add on but not really impressed its a pcie slot.. dubious but since this will go on my shelf and just sit there so when not in use i suppose i'll just tuck them under it
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Just ordered mine from Batronix to import, good service and a nice discount, overall comparable to saelig costs to your door with the normal discount, not as good as what welectron was doing though but they are out of stock.
Everyone else in NA was telling me end of May at the soonest and its on dhl so I'll know if i get tariff slapped right away. The CAN FD decoding sold me on upgrading from my hacked SDS1104X-E so not really concerned if i get tariffed or not as this will greatly help increase my applicable knowledge and just consider it an education cost.. i got another 2 weeks of doing nothing in May thanks to covid so might as well make the best of it.
Plan to get the logic add on but not really impressed its a pcie slot.. dubious but since this will go on my shelf and just sit there so when not in use i suppose i'll just tuck them under it
Don't be scared by the pci-e.
I have a good friend of mine who works for a big connector manufacturer and even if I don't know the history of the pci-e, he tells me that usually, connectors are designed for a specific application / specification.
If the specifications require 50 mating cycles, the connector will be tested for 50 mating cycle according to the required performance.
The connector will not be tested on 1000 mating cycle while it may supports them without problem.
I am not saying that this connector will withstand 1000 mating cycle but it will not fall apart after 51 cycles.
This remains a questionable choice, I think there were more suitable alternatives...
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Hello,
I have a Rigol MSO2072A that use also PCI-E connector for the LA, and and used it very often
for 4 years now without having encounter any false contact issue.
Besides, I ask me if the Rigol probe is compatible with the Siglent one... :)
Frex
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Hello,
I have a Rigol MSO2072A that use also PCI-E connector for the LA, and and used it very often
for 4 years now without having encounter any false contact issue.
Besides, I ask me if the Rigol probe is compatible with the Siglent one... :)
Frex
It certainly is PCI-e as this pic connected to a PCI-e socket on an old PC Mobo shows.
As the MSO lead retainer clips engage with the casing, unless Rigol use the same retaining method and surrounding aperture it might not fit. Still the active circuitry in the MSO probe assembly needs to be compatible too or there is a risk of damaging the scope or MSO lead or both ! :scared:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=974342)
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Agree to this, it MIGHT fit, but you can´t be really sure about and when you damaged something through the trying, your warranty will be lost.
Won´t try this out... ;)
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Don't be scared by the pci-e.
I have a good friend of mine who works for a big connector manufacturer and even if I don't know the history of the pci-e, he tells me that usually, connectors are designed for a specific application / specification.
If the specifications require 50 mating cycles, the connector will be tested for 50 mating cycle according to the required performance.
The connector will not be tested on 1000 mating cycle while it may supports them without problem.
With the precission things are produced nowadays they can control durability quite accurately. For sure the connector won't fall apart after 50 mating cycles but don't expect to get 100 cycles from the connector. My advice would be to leave the MSO pod connected to the oscilloscope; certainly don't connect/disconnect it every day. The bottom line is that a PCIe connector just isn't designed/made to be plugged in regulary.
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Agree to this, it MIGHT fit, but you can´t be really sure about and when you damaged something through the trying, your warranty will be lost.
Won´t try this out... ;)
Unless......someone has both scopes and can buzz out the PCI-e socket voltages.
I would not be surprised if the MSO probe set is identical and just rebadged like many of the industry shared current probes are.
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Unless......someone has both scopes and can buzz out the PCI-e socket voltages.
That would be too perfect to come true someday.
Or too expensive. 8)
Or Dave can do it (BTW, where´s his video….)
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Well looky here, 16ch MSO probes from both LeCroy and Tek appear very similar:
LeCroy Number T3DSO2000-LS
(https://media.digikey.com/Photos/Teledyne%20LeCroy%20Photos/MFG_T3DSOx000-LS.jpg)
Tek P6616 and some similar pt#'s
(https://kyozoufs.blob.core.windows.net/filestoragetcdb/Pictures/_30/29348/29347328.jpg)
RIGOL RPL2316
(https://www.globaltestsupply.com/images/products/cache/rigol/rpl2316/main/rigol-rpl2316-standard-logic-probe-set.jpg)
I wonder who makes them ? :-/O :-//
Find some cheap busted ones from eBay and dissect/RE them ?
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Hello,
I have a Rigol MSO2072A that use also PCI-E connector for the LA, and and used it very often
for 4 years now without having encounter any false contact issue.
Besides, I ask me if the Rigol probe is compatible with the Siglent one... :)
Frex
Does the Rigol MSO2072A digital channels cable and connector work on the Siglent 2000X Plus?
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Hello,
I have ordered yesterday the SDS2104X-Plus to Batronix (not yet the LA probe), hope to have it here in few days.
So, i will have both oscilloscopes for trying. Of course, before to do anything i will check twice if this can be done without risk.
The first condition is that the pods mechanical input are really same.
Frex
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Hello Frex,
Congratulations on the new scope! Looking forward to learning about the digital cable compatibility and even more to your thoughts on how it compares (very favorably I’m sure) to the MSO2072A.
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I suspect so too after browsing around, I'd wonder if they are even active and its all pass through
You get 40 pins, 8 lines and 12 grounds per side
Should be an easy buzz out if someone wanted to post a pin out of what they have
But... If its not active and really is just a pass through cable... How do you justify hundreds of dollars and not be hosed by the aftermarket? Only thing that comes to mind is bandwidth specs for high speed but still..
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There's a project with a cheap replacement logic probe adapter pod for the Rigol MSO series. Maybe it can be retargeted to the SDS2000X+ as well.
PS: It's a replacement for the PLA2216 logic probe, but this one seems quite different to the SPL2016.
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SPL2016 logic probes shipped with SDS2000x+ seems very similar to Lecroy posted by tautech, thank you for sharing!
The LA set includes:
1. the PCIe interface cable to 2x 20pin parallel connector (2.54mm raster). All pins on one side of the PCIe are all ground, connected to ground pins on the 20pin connectors (10pin on one side plus 1pin on each end of the other side all grounds). There is 92kOhm serial resistance to be measured between the 8 active pins and and the PCIe active pins.
2. the 20pin parallel connector to single-wire probe cables. All grounds are pass-through, all acive pins have serial resistor 91 Ohm between probe and 20pin connector.
3. a box of probe adapters, same as on tautech photo
I recall someone saying the PCIe adapter use 8x coax ribbon cables. From the PCB photos published here, scope PCB includes LA comparators with threshold voltage adjustment. So it seems, the LA probe is passive only. This was only a quick check, so no warranty. Pls see my SPL2016 photos attached.
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I measured a 10MHz Butterworth low-pass filter that is supposed to create a sine from a square wave by suppressing the harmonics and it's really nice being able to just set markers on all harmonics and then see how many dB the most prominent harmonic is below the carrier. The only grief I have that it seems not possible to set the vertical config to dBc instead of dBVrms or dBm. I get the absolute value of every marker and a simple subtraction addition gives me what I need, but it would nevertheless be more convenient to just have marker #1 setting the reference and then listing all other markers relative to marker #1.
YES! Found it! You can switch on a "DeltaAmpl" column in the marker list. This lists all markers referenced to #1! That's exactly what I was looking for.
[attachimg=1 width=640]
EDIT: better screenshot
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SPL2016 logic probes shipped with SDS2000x+ seems very similar to Lecroy posted by tautech, thank you for sharing!
The LA set includes:
1. the PCIe interface cable to 2x 20pin parallel connector (2.54mm raster). All pins on one side of the PCIe are all ground, connected to ground pins on the 20pin connectors (10pin on one side plus 1pin on each end of the other side all grounds). There is 92kOhm serial resistance to be measured between the 8 active pins and and the PCIe active pins.
2. the 20pin parallel connector to single-wire probe cables. All grounds are pass-through, all acive pins have serial resistor 91 Ohm between probe and 20pin connector.
3. a box of probe adapters, same as on tautech photo
I recall someone saying the PCIe adapter use 8x coax ribbon cables. From the PCB photos published here, scope PCB includes LA comparators with threshold voltage adjustment. So it seems, the LA probe is passive only. This was only a quick check, so no warranty. Pls see my SPL2016 photos attached.
I made the same measurement on my MSO2072A La probe, i find 91.5 kOhms between each terminal and PCI-E plug,
and 150 Ohms between PCI-E plug and female header.
So, that seem quite similar to Siglent probe.
Frex
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SPL2016 logic probes shipped with SDS2000x+ seems very similar to Lecroy posted by tautech, thank you for sharing!
Yes but it is little surprise the LeCroy MSO probe similar when in fact they will be the same as LeCroy market a few Siglent products as their own. It's of greater interest Tek use very similar PCI-e socketed probes which might indicate they don't have concerns of limited mating cycles where in fact the contact loadings and data throughput rates for LA probes will vastly different to what's required for PCI-e cards in a PC Mobo.
The LA set includes:
1. the PCIe interface cable to 2x 20pin parallel connector (2.54mm raster). All pins on one side of the PCIe are all ground, connected to ground pins on the 20pin connectors (10pin on one side plus 1pin on each end of the other side all grounds). There is 92kOhm serial resistance to be measured between the 8 active pins and and the PCIe active pins.
2. the 20pin parallel connector to single-wire probe cables. All grounds are pass-through, all acive pins have serial resistor 91 Ohm between probe and 20pin connector.
3. a box of probe adapters, same as on tautech photo
Thanks for the measurements but:
I recall someone saying the PCIe adapter use 8x coax ribbon cables. From the PCB photos published here, scope PCB includes LA comparators with threshold voltage adjustment. So it seems, the LA probe is passive only. This was only a quick check, so no warranty. Pls see my SPL2016 photos attached.
This is not the conclusion I came to after buzzing some connections out.
Even the flying lead breakout sections seem to have active components inside and those with a better camera might like to take picks of how these pieces are constructed or better still, as mentioned before X-rays !
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Well looky here, 16ch MSO probes from both LeCroy and Tek appear very similar:
LeCroy Number T3DSO2000-LS
Tek P6616 and some similar pt#'s
RIGOL RPL2316
I wonder who makes them ? :-/O :-//
Find some cheap busted ones from eBay and dissect/RE them ?
Have a look at the current probes….
Siglent, Rigol, R&S, Lecroy, Keysight and partially Tek....It´s all the same...
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Bugs:
FFT Marker Table:
- Even when the switch for "Show Table" is on, the table is not shown unless you toggle the switch. Same for "Show Delta".
- When switching off the "Show Frequency", the "Delta" column is incorrectly labeled as "Abs.Freq" (screenshot)
[attachimg=1 width=600]
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I received my scope today. Three days after ordering from Germany. Excellent service. Sadly Miyagi's update method did not work. I get a refused connection when I try to TELNET in with Putty. The scope can see the startup.sh file that has the telnetd but I dont think its reading it on startup. Any thoughts?
Just a follow-up... I purchased a demo unit from WELECTRON in Germany and DHL charged me $53 in duties ($38 duties, $15 processing fees) for delivery tomorrow in the US.
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I received my scope today. Three days after ordering from Germany. Excellent service. Sadly Miyagi's update method did not work. I get a refused connection when I try to TELNET in with Putty. The scope can see the startup.sh file that has the telnetd but I dont think its reading it on startup. Any thoughts?
Just a follow-up... I purchased a demo unit from WELECTRON in Germany and DHL charged me $53 in duties ($38 duties, $15 processing fees) for delivery tomorrow in the US.
What tariff code did they use? Mine is coming under 90302000 so no idea if ill be pegged yet as technically that code isn't listed but 90302010 is
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I received my scope today. Three days after ordering from Germany. Excellent service. Sadly Miyagi's update method did not work. I get a refused connection when I try to TELNET in with Putty. The scope can see the startup.sh file that has the telnetd but I dont think its reading it on startup. Any thoughts?
Just a follow-up... I purchased a demo unit from WELECTRON in Germany and DHL charged me $53 in duties ($38 duties, $15 processing fees) for delivery tomorrow in the US.
What tariff code did they use? Mine is coming under 90302000 so no idea if ill be pegged yet as technically that code isn't listed but 90302010 is
I haven't received yet, so don't know what tariff code they used. It was a 4% duty, so it is not the Made in China tariff which I think starts at 25%
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I have not received any bill from DHL. Weird. Not complaining though. Man I love this instrument.
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I have not received any bill from DHL. Weird. Not complaining though. Man I love this instrument.
You dont get a bill from them like fedex... they will hold hostage your item till you pay lol
What's your import BOL say on it?
Yeah cant wait to get mine.. they just shipped it today
Also found this bad ass probe station setup thanks to their advert banner.. i got a similar one for soldering and under my microscope
I bought a full set of 4 scope probes and 8 logic probes from saelig
(https://sensepeek.com/shop/ws40/74640/files/2020/croped/200126_Sensepeek39250_croped.jpg)
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Also found this bad ass probe station setup thanks to their advert banner.. i got a similar one for soldering and under my microscope
It's the 4003, right?
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Also found this bad ass probe station setup thanks to their advert banner.. i got a similar one for soldering and under my microscope
It's the 4003, right?
4015, it has the large base + 2 scope probes
then i added 2x SP100 probes so i have a full set and since i got this nice new logic analyser coming, i threw in two packs of 4005 so i can do 4x analog and 8x digital which is fantastic for me
I've been wanting a system like this for years now as i try not to litter my boards with a hoard of test points which get in the way of high density designs
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(https://sensepeek.com/shop/ws40/74640/files/2020/croped/200126_Sensepeek39250_croped.jpg)
Nice helping hands!!
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Also found this bad ass probe station setup thanks to their advert banner.. i got a similar one for soldering and under my microscope
It's the 4003, right?
Wow! That is so cool! I can imagine the probes moving by themselves in a cheesy SCI-FI movie!
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Well looky here, 16ch MSO probes from both LeCroy and Tek appear very similar:
LeCroy Number T3DSO2000-LS
Tek P6616 and some similar pt#'s
RIGOL RPL2316
I wonder who makes them ? :-/O :-//
Find some cheap busted ones from eBay and dissect/RE them ?
Have a look at the current probes….
Siglent, Rigol, R&S, Lecroy, Keysight and partially Tek....It´s all the same...
I got mine today before i got the scope.. lol
Anyway its kinda like i thought, they are a specific impedance set by 100K / 18pF components and the wiring. Your paying for controlled impedance
Now how many need that? all depends on what you are doing, if someone doesnt need it then anyone could rig something up using pci-e header for a few bucks
I debated it but my own laziness wins when its already in hand, i'd say most wouldnt need it unless you already know about controlling pcb material impedance and that's how far you are going and signal tuning / timing.. if not odds are you dont
I have only maybe two applications that fit that out of dozens of others where its not a critical parameter
Edit: another fun tidbit... you can track carrier flights on flightaware.. how cool is that.. watching my scope fly across the pond in real time
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DHK966/history/20200423/0138Z/EDDP
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I think I discovered the rule (or the symptom) of an upgraded SDS2000X+ becoming a 2354X+ (w/ 500MHz) or a 2504X+ model:
It's all in the S/N: :popcorn:
SDS2Pxxx3Rxxxx will turn into a 2354
SDS2Pxxx4Rxxxx will turn into a 2504
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I think I discovered the rule (or the symptom) of an upgraded SDS2000X+ becoming a 2354X+ (w/ 500MHz) or a 2504X+ model:
It's all in the S/N: :popcorn:
SDS2Pxxx3Rxxxx will turn into a 2354
SDS2Pxxx4Rxxxx will turn into a 2504
:-//
3 or 4 AFAIK is just part of the production quarter/date code
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I think I discovered the rule (or the symptom) of an upgraded SDS2000X+ becoming a 2354X+ (w/ 500MHz) or a 2504X+ model:
It's all in the S/N: :popcorn:
SDS2Pxxx3Rxxxx will turn into a 2354
SDS2Pxxx4Rxxxx will turn into a 2504
Think ya might haveta increase the sample size :popcorn:
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I think I discovered the rule (or the symptom) of an upgraded SDS2000X+ becoming a 2354X+ (w/ 500MHz) or a 2504X+ model:
It's all in the S/N: :popcorn:
SDS2Pxxx3Rxxxx will turn into a 2354
SDS2Pxxx4Rxxxx will turn into a 2504
Aha.....
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I don't like the way this scope is drawing the waveform: why it cannot draw a smooth trace?[attachimg=1]
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10-bit resolution acquisition bug??? What am I missing?
@8-bit resolution, Pk-Pk is 1.3267V
[attachimg=1]
@ 10-bit resolution, Pk-Pk is 1.014193V
[attachimg=2]
EDIT: Found the answer in the manual... BW is limited to 100MHz in 10bits mode
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High res means filtering. Look at the frequency of your signal.
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I think I discovered the rule (or the symptom) of an upgraded SDS2000X+ becoming a 2354X+ (w/ 500MHz) or a 2504X+ model:
It's all in the S/N: :popcorn:
SDS2Pxxx3Rxxxx will turn into a 2354
SDS2Pxxx4Rxxxx will turn into a 2504
Mine is a 4R but turned into 2354, not 2504.
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Mine just cleared customs with no duty charge.. woohoo
I'll do mine tomorrow and see what it does for upgrading with the serial
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High res means filtering. Look at the frequency of your signal.
Yep, in this case bw is limited to 100Mhz when using the 10 bit mode.
I don't like the way this scope is drawing the waveform: why it cannot draw a smooth trace?
Internal awg ?
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I somehow doubt the internal awg can manage 100MHz. Does it clean up in single shot? If not it's probably the source or possibly the 50 ohm termination.
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Argh, you're right, didn't saw the 100Mhz :palm:
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It's a display scaling artifact if the menu is visible. With the menu disabled, the waveform is clean. They need to fix the coefficients for the resampling filter. If they have one at all. It looks like they scale the waveform by culling columns without filtering.
[attachimg=1 width=600]
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It's a display scaling artifact if the menu is visible. With the menu disabled, the waveform is clean. They need to fix the coefficients for the resampling filter. If they have one at all. It looks like they scale the waveform by culling columns without filtering.
(Attachment Link)
That's what I assumed, minus it having to do with the menu. That's pretty odd.
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Look what I found :-+
$ nmap -sT 192.168.2.189
Starting Nmap 7.70 ( https://nmap.org ) at 2020-04-24 10:09 CEST
Nmap scan report for 192.168.2.189
Host is up (0.021s latency).
Not shown: 997 closed ports
PORT STATE SERVICE
80/tcp open http
111/tcp open rpcbind
5900/tcp open vnc <--- !!!
And yes, I can just fire up a vnc viewer and operate the scope through this connection :-) No need for a web browser.
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It's a display scaling artifact if the menu is visible. With the menu disabled, the waveform is clean. They need to fix the coefficients for the resampling filter. If they have one at all. It looks like they scale the waveform by culling columns without filtering.
(Attachment Link)
That's what I assumed, minus it having to do with the menu. That's pretty odd.
Not really. It just means they're trying to do the scaling with the least CPU involvement possible. Either there's a hardware decimation in the display path that just culls display columns (is the graticule also affected?) or they need to scale the waveform in software and try doing with as little CPU cycles as possible.
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Well in many scopes I've seen they don't do anything, just draw the menus over the waveform area. It's very late and I've only seen screenshots so I didn't realize they scaled the waveform with menus open.
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Hello,
I'm a new owner of SDS2304X+ become now a fully upgraded
SDS2354 with the help of TV84 ! Big thanks to him and his patience with me. ;)
I've check with the Rigol logic probe (from my MSO2072A) and it doesn't fit,
the connector entry is not same (not very surprising).
So need to order the probe soon...
The UI of the Siglent is very responsive, we see that we have very good quality in hands.
Now, time play with these lot of functionality...
Frex
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I think I discovered the rule (or the symptom) of an upgraded SDS2000X+ becoming a 2354X+ (w/ 500MHz) or a 2504X+ model:
It's all in the S/N: :popcorn:
SDS2Pxxx3Rxxxx will turn into a 2354
SDS2Pxxx4Rxxxx will turn into a 2504
Mine is a 4R but turned into 2354, not 2504.
There goes the neighborhood. My hunch was wrong! |O
-
I think I discovered the rule (or the symptom) of an upgraded SDS2000X+ becoming a 2354X+ (w/ 500MHz) or a 2504X+ model:
It's all in the S/N: :popcorn:
SDS2Pxxx3Rxxxx will turn into a 2354
SDS2Pxxx4Rxxxx will turn into a 2504
Mine is a 4R but turned into 2354, not 2504.
There goes the neighborhood. My hunch was wrong! |O
What about Hardware Version? Mine is 02-00, Serial 3R and became 2354X
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I don't think there's any other hardware version than 2-0 in the wild.
-
Remains an interesting mistery...
-
Status on Welectron: Although they did claim that they could mail a scope in 2-4 days, and each time I contracted them they said my order would ship in the next day or two. They had not shipped my order after 15 days so I requested they cancel it. Just letting people know you might not get anything quickly from them due to COVID effects or just that they are not transparent about what they really have in stock (?).
It is unfortunate because I lost my place in line at Saelig, and I did want a this scope while I was locked down at home.
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I never had problem with Batronix and the scope is in stock ;)
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Remains an interesting mistery...
This challenge fits perfect to you…. :D
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It's a display scaling artifact if the menu is visible. With the menu disabled, the waveform is clean.
A fix would be indeed nice...
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I never had problem with Batronix and the scope is in stock ;)
My experience was too painful, waiting 2 days for each question to be answered being charged and no shipment for weeks. I don't know if that is standard practice in Germany but in the US most vendors will only prevalidate your billing until they actually put the product out to you, they take the money when they effectively transfer the product to you.
Saelig without me inquiring provided me an estimate of when it would come in and already wrote me 4 emails about my order's status. They won't bill me anything until it ships. They cancelled my last order in 30 minutes via email and answered their phone in < 5 mins when I called them on my initial order that was put on backorder. I'm going to stick with them and domestic distributors. With EEVblog discount there is 1 dollar difference and no possibility of tariff.
Times are weird, I wouldn't have normally posted it publicly as I'm fine as long as they actually refund my money in a timely fashion. But I didn't want a bunch of people in the US to have the same issue given it was suggested that they had them and it would be quick.
-
Someone who has this scope already.
I have looked at the manual and so on. I presume there is no way to change trace colors in any of the menus?
Maybe it is defined in the filesystem also somewhere? (Doubtful).
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It's a display scaling artifact if the menu is visible. With the menu disabled, the waveform is clean. They need to fix the coefficients for the resampling filter. If they have one at all. It looks like they scale the waveform by culling columns without filtering.
(Attachment Link)
When you disable the menu, waveform looks better, but change the timebase and the artifact comes back even with no menu on screen
-
Someone who has this scope already.
I have looked at the manual and so on. I presume there is no way to change trace colors in any of the menus?
Maybe it is defined in the filesystem also somewhere? (Doubtful).
Not at this time.
-
This challenge fits perfect to you…. :D
:) I think that Siglent just changed things after the first 4R's were out.
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It's a display scaling artifact if the menu is visible. With the menu disabled, the waveform is clean. They need to fix the coefficients for the resampling filter. If they have one at all. It looks like they scale the waveform by culling columns without filtering.
(Attachment Link)
When you disable the menu, waveform looks better, but change the timebase and the artifact comes back even with no menu on screen
Screenshot? I can't reproduce it. If you set the timebase long enough, there's some visible aliasing, but it's only an 8-bit ADC and 1024x600 pixels on the display so don't expect miracles.
-
Someone who has this scope already.
I have looked at the manual and so on. I presume there is no way to change trace colors in any of the menus?
Maybe it is defined in the filesystem also somewhere? (Doubtful).
Not at this time.
Would be nice when siglent could follow lecroy in this case too.
Lecroy scopes allowing not only changing the colour of all traces (channels, mathfunctions, memory waveforms), they also let you change the background into white (visible in the screenshot only, of course), which saves printer colours.
Don´t know if this could be realized.
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Lecroy scopes .... also let you change the background into white (visible in the screenshot only, of course), which saves printer colours.
Don´t know if this could be realized.
Press "Save/Recall" button => "Image Style" => Inverted
let me change Black background to White background on screen shots
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Excellent, didn´t recognized this before :-+
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Lecroy scopes .... also let you change the background into white (visible in the screenshot only, of course), which saves printer colours.
Don´t know if this could be realized.
Press "Save/Recall" button => "Image Style" => Inverted
let me change Black background to White background on screen shots
Just so. :)
Could you please check something for me.......SDS2104X Plus I had now has another home. :(
Set Image style Inverted to User Default. (in Save/Recall menu)
Reboot DSO, does the setting Inverted remain as default for the Print button ?
Reported as a problem for another Siglent DSO and requested this behaviour need be corrected in all models.
-
Hi Rob,
Reboot DSO, does the setting Inverted remain as default for the Print button ?
Just trying it out now - The setting "Image Style" in the save/recall menu was changed back to normal, after reboot.
EDIT:
Other menu settings ( acquire, trigger for example (tried them)) remains after reboot.
-
It's a display scaling artifact if the menu is visible. With the menu disabled, the waveform is clean. They need to fix the coefficients for the resampling filter. If they have one at all. It looks like they scale the waveform by culling columns without filtering.
(Attachment Link)
When you disable the menu, waveform looks better, but change the timebase and the artifact comes back even with no menu on screen
Screenshot? I can't reproduce it. If you set the timebase long enough, there's some visible aliasing, but it's only an 8-bit ADC and 1024x600 pixels on the display so don't expect miracles.
There is no correlation between a voltage value that the 8-bit ADC calculates and the pixels, you are seeing a composition of 120,000 traces per second, you shouldn't be able to see any artifacts. Besides, the artifacts are vertical and not horizontal. It also should change depending on the sampling memory used, and it shows the same artifact at 10K all the way up to 100M.I tried today with a 10KHz signal and without the menu the waveform looks much better. I will run more tests in the future. But definitely Siglent needs to fix this. It does not add any value compressing the image to show the menu. The menu will be open almost all the time, so after you change a setting, you need to close the menu to see a more reliable waveform, then you change another setting and the menu pops up again, then you need to close it again...
-
Anyone tried wifi? I plugged in a TL-WN722N but nothing happens.
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Anyone tried wifi? I plugged in a TL-WN722N but nothing happens.
Welcome to the forum.
WiFi is not an official option.
If it was your USB dongle would be recognised immediately.
Another wireless connectivity option/solution using the scopes LAN socket is here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/cheap-wifi-for-sds1000x-e/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/cheap-wifi-for-sds1000x-e/)
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Hi Rob,
Reboot DSO, does the setting Inverted remain as default for the Print button ?
Just trying it out now - The setting "Image Style" in the save/recall menu was changed back to normal, after reboot.
EDIT:
Other menu settings ( acquire, trigger for example (tried them)) remains after reboot.
As expected however I was asking about setting Inverted Print outputs as a User Default.
Maybe you haven't found that functionality yet. ;)
Either way, neither works as it should in the X-E and have been reported as bugs.
-
I never had problem with Batronix and the scope is in stock ;)
My experience was too painful, waiting 2 days for each question to be answered being charged and no shipment for weeks. I don't know if that is standard practice in Germany but in the US most vendors will only prevalidate your billing until they actually put the product out to you, they take the money when they effectively transfer the product to you.
Saelig without me inquiring provided me an estimate of when it would come in and already wrote me 4 emails about my order's status. They won't bill me anything until it ships. They cancelled my last order in 30 minutes via email and answered their phone in < 5 mins when I called them on my initial order that was put on backorder. I'm going to stick with them and domestic distributors. With EEVblog discount there is 1 dollar difference and no possibility of tariff.
Times are weird, I wouldn't have normally posted it publicly as I'm fine as long as they actually refund my money in a timely fashion. But I didn't want a bunch of people in the US to have the same issue given it was suggested that they had them and it would be quick.
Wow that sucks.. im glad i stayed away from them and went with Batronix. I only had to request a custom quote and made mention i found them through the eevblog which i did and Joel gave me 6% off.. im peeved at dhl however for handing my package off to the post office and now i have to wait till tomorrow to get it lol
But straight up, i sent my request late at night their time, Joel was quick to respond that morning, i was then able to load their website and pop a chat.. it took me straight to Joel who hooked me up to finalize the order, the only odd part was I had to ask him for a payment link but other than that he ran it like a normal company PO order.. from there he handed it off to another guy that deals with customs (which i paid no duty tax.. awesome!) and that took 2 days with covid going on but after that it was on a dhl truck by Wednesday of this week for a Monday order. No complaints here
https://www.dhl.com/en/express/tracking.html?AWB=00340434126116614563&brand=DHL (https://www.dhl.com/en/express/tracking.html?AWB=00340434126116614563&brand=DHL)
So i'd still say you should go with them and they have stock still posted
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2000X-plus.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2000X-plus.html)
And yeah props to saelig, i always go there first if i can. I also shop there and made them a vendor for our company too.
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But definitely Siglent needs to fix this. It does not add any value compressing the image to show the menu. The menu will be open almost all the time, so after you change a setting, you need to close the menu to see a more reliable waveform, then you change another setting and the menu pops up again, then you need to close it again...
I completely agree with this... that's going to drive me batty knowing its there and distorting as i always leave menus on just to remind me where i was at
Up vote for passing this along tautech, or at least an option to change its behaviour
-
SPL2016 logic probes shipped with SDS2000x+ seems very similar to Lecroy posted by tautech, thank you for sharing!
The LA set includes:
1. the PCIe interface cable to 2x 20pin parallel connector (2.54mm raster). All pins on one side of the PCIe are all ground, connected to ground pins on the 20pin connectors (10pin on one side plus 1pin on each end of the other side all grounds). There is 92kOhm serial resistance to be measured between the 8 active pins and and the PCIe active pins.
2. the 20pin parallel connector to single-wire probe cables. All grounds are pass-through, all acive pins have serial resistor 91 Ohm between probe and 20pin connector.
3. a box of probe adapters, same as on tautech photo
I recall someone saying the PCIe adapter use 8x coax ribbon cables. From the PCB photos published here, scope PCB includes LA comparators with threshold voltage adjustment. So it seems, the LA probe is passive only. This was only a quick check, so no warranty. Pls see my SPL2016 photos attached.
Specs for Rigol RPL2316, Siglent SPL2016, and Tek P6616.
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Specs for Rigol RPL2316, Siglent SPL2016, and Tek P6616.
Interesting... the label on the siglent probes has 100K 18pF on it
Also their probe list has the same
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2017/10/Probe-Datasheet-V2.0E201912.pdf (https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2017/10/Probe-Datasheet-V2.0E201912.pdf)
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RTB2004 specs aren't too much different either
-
Hello,
I played yesterday a little with my new toy.
First, i compared the response of the the scope with a fast pulse generator
1) Response of the Rigol MSO2072A (modified for MSO2302A)
(http://oneaudio.net/Pict/RIGOL_MSO2072A_Pulse.png)
2) Same measurement with Siglent SDS2104X-Plus (modified to SDS2354X-Plus)
(http://oneaudio.net/Pict/SDS2354X%20Plus_Pulse.png)
As we show, results are both very good, but the rise time with Siglent is a little better.
Fine.
Then I tested the Bode plot function, because i have some doubt if that can really work well
with the dynamic range of a scope. I tested lot of stuff, but i show here the response
of a passive 6th order 100kHz low pass filter.
3) Results of low pass filter Bode Plot.
(http://oneaudio.net/Pict/SDS2354X%20Plus_PNG_1.png)
The screenshot show very good response, I'm surprised how the low signal level is very well
measured by the scope to have clear shape down to about -110dB !
In a second time, i have tested the measurement floor and cross-talk by removing the DUT
and placing nothing on channel corresponding to DUT output
(only one channel connected to DUT input from internal generator).
I tested this with reference channel to C2 (near C1) and C4 (far C1) to check if there is
cross-talk issue if we use side channels. Excitation voltage is maximum of 2Vrms
from 5kHz to 50MHz (maximum allowable by the internal generator).
ode plot is set to auto level.
4) Bode response without DUT (C1-C2) 5kHz to 50MHz 2Vrms.
(http://oneaudio.net/Pict/SDS2354X%20Plus_PNG_2.png)
5) Bode response without DUT (C1-C4) 5kHz to 50MHz 2Vrms.
(http://oneaudio.net/Pict/SDS2354X%20Plus_PNG_3.png)
As we show, the measurement floor is near -120dB that is very good for the instrument.
There is also no clear cross-talk even at maximum frequency. Congratulation Siglent !
I tested also a 10kHz passive notch filter, and then I download the data results to export to csv format.
After importing this that give the result on the next graph.
6) 10kHz Notch filter response (CSV import).
(http://oneaudio.net/Pict/NotchFilter.jpg)
Now, some comments about this scope from these first hours use ,
- he Bode Plot time is very long and there is no possibility (as i show)
to choose the averaging/sampling time. - The UI hang-up if you try to do something when it operate
(A message would be welcomed) - When using the function generator, when increasing the frequency with the knob,
the increment was much too high and change with speed.
So, impossible to have 1kHz, and move around this value with 1Hz or 10Hz resolution.
It's however a basic function for a generator.
It's possible to set a direct frequency, but unusable for varying around a value. - I don't understand also why in "simple" measurement mode it is not possible to mix
measurements between channels, that would be great to avoid taking space when it's not needed.
Anyway, i must say that the Siglent is very pleasant to use and GUI is overall well done.
The display is big and clear, and comparing to the MSO2072A, the fan noise is much lower.
(Of course the dream would be a fan-less scope, i hate the noise like many others here) .
So, i must to play more with to try all others functions.
Regards.
Frex
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Nice post Frex.
A comment if I may....most if not all adjustments that can be made with the multi-function control....if you press the control a virtual keyboard or panel appears where you can enter exact values rather than turn the knob.
Whenever in a submenu and the multifunction light comes on, press the control for additional input options.
Addition of a mouse for control speeds the use of the virtual keyboards somewhat too.
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Hello tautech,
I think you have misreading my post.
I have seen that we can us the virtual keyboard to set a direct frequency value.
Anyway, it's unusable if you want to vary slowly frequency to a target point.
A practical example is finding the maximal depth of a notch filter.
A convenient way is the ability to select the digit of the setting frequency you want
to change when you turn the knob. So you have any accuracy with the knob.
Here, the knob increment seem to be always the second digit of the select frequency.
Not practical at all for real use.
Anyway, just need to keep in mind for end user that this tool can be IHMO,
only as a secondary generator .
Frex
-
But definitely Siglent needs to fix this. It does not add any value compressing the image to show the menu. The menu will be open almost all the time, so after you change a setting, you need to close the menu to see a more reliable waveform, then you change another setting and the menu pops up again, then you need to close it again...
The should fix their display scaling filter. Like you said, the menu is going to be on most of the time and I don't feel like loosing almost two divisions of the screen because they cannot get their display code sorted out. Anyway - it's good to know that the problem is not in the sampled data, therefore measurements are not going to be affected.
-
Now, some comments about this scope from these first hours use ,
The Bode Plot time is very long and there is no possibility (as i show)
to choose the averaging/sampling time.
Selecting less Bode plot points at the expense of accuracy ?
-
Now, some comments about this scope from these first hours use ,
The Bode Plot time is very long and there is no possibility (as i show)
to choose the averaging/sampling time.
Selecting less Bode plot points at the expense of accuracy ?
Yes, it is the trick here.
Just to underline that it's the only way.
I notice this morning that Bode plot is limited to start from 10 Hz.
It's weird to have limit this, the generator can go much below (1 µHz).
Frex
-
Now, some comments about this scope from these first hours use ,
The Bode Plot time is very long and there is no possibility (as i show)
to choose the averaging/sampling time.
Selecting less Bode plot points at the expense of accuracy ?
Yes, it is the trick here.
Just to underline that it's the only way.
I notice this morning that Bode plot is limited to start from 10 Hz.
It's weird to have limit this, the generator can go much below (1 µHz).
Frex
Check the channel input coupling mode when Bode plot is running. ;)
-
Ah ! Ok...I will check that. Thanks. :)
Do you know what is the "tek mode" in the utility panel ?
Frex
-
In Tek Mode, the SCPI commands that the instrument understands are adapted to match those of Tektronix.
-
Lecroy scopes .... also let you change the background into white (visible in the screenshot only, of course), which saves printer colours.
Don´t know if this could be realized.
Press "Save/Recall" button => "Image Style" => Inverted
let me change Black background to White background on screen shots
It would be better you could change the "printing colours" like lecroy, see below.
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It would be better you could change the "printing colours" like lecroy, see below.
Above screenshots really show suboptimum readability of input signal. I have no Lecroy to compare, so can not vote. On my Siglent, when signal slew rate is much faster than horizontal timebase, the vertical trace is very narrow as in your example.
By the way, my -3dB bandwidth is approx 600MHz for CH1-CH3 or CH2-CH4 and is somehow reduced to 530MHz for CH1-CH4 or CH2-CH3.
For maximum bandwidth, the first combination is to be preferred. But, to be honest, the difference is minimum. I can't see any degradation on Leo's pulser.
-
Hi Rob,
Reboot DSO, does the setting Inverted remain as default for the Print button ?
Just trying it out now - The setting "Image Style" in the save/recall menu was changed back to normal, after reboot.
EDIT:
Other menu settings ( acquire, trigger for example (tried them)) remains after reboot.
As expected however I was asking about setting Inverted Print outputs as a User Default.
Maybe you haven't found that functionality yet. ;)
To be honest, I don´t know what you mean with this exactly. :(
There´s no print menu or settings for the print button explicit avaible.
Another strange thing:
As I played around with the image style thing, turning it to invert, and press reboot - after the reboot all usb connectivity got lost.
No flashdrive detection, no mouse detection…
Reboot again, nothing changes.
Shut it down, then turning on again - Ports will be detected…..
-
Above screenshots really show suboptimum readability of input signal. I have no Lecroy to compare, so can not vote.
But I do.
Leaving the lecroy in the default setup (printing colours are the same as channel colours), the result was the same worse thing ( on screenshot it´s barely visible, but if you print this out, sometimes you see nothing).
Nevertheless, it´s not a thing that must be fixed asap, it could be a nice feature for somewhere in the future.
-
Another strange thing:
As I played around with the image style thing, turning it to invert, and press reboot - after the reboot all usb connectivity got lost.
No flashdrive detection, no mouse detection…
Reboot again, nothing changes.
Shut it down, then turning on again - Ports will be detected…..
That happens to the usb root hub if you have a power fault, they dont turn back on until you hard cycle, look for ground loops but if not maybe faulty? I'd assume they would have one anyway like other products and especially considering its nature.. if not x_x
-
Frex, Are you the same Frex as an DIY Audio? If so I have been following your audio analyzer build. Awesome work.
I did receive my LA probe set from Saelig. They are quite nice but not $300.00 nice. Would have nice to get a little storage pouch.
-
Hi Rob,
Reboot DSO, does the setting Inverted remain as default for the Print button ?
Just trying it out now - The setting "Image Style" in the save/recall menu was changed back to normal, after reboot.
EDIT:
Other menu settings ( acquire, trigger for example (tried them)) remains after reboot.
As expected however I was asking about setting Inverted Print outputs as a User Default.
Maybe you haven't found that functionality yet. ;)
To be honest, I don´t know what you mean with this exactly. :(
There´s no print menu or settings for the print button explicit available.
Save/Recall>Save>Type = Default (button) = Current (scope) settings.
This sets all scope settings currently used to the Default button rather than the normal factory defaults. (yet they can also be returned to Default)
Very convenient for your most used favourite scope setup and must include Print output settings such as inverted and/or other image file types AND they must be returned when the user set Default is next used, with or without power cycling.
As mentioned, this is not the case with current X-E FW and I expect 2kX Plus to be the same and it needs be fixed.
Currently Print output settings are not saved to user Default OR reboot when they should be.
This needs carefully checking in 2kX Plus by another owner as I have sold my 2104X Plus and won't have any more for a few weeks. :(
-
Save/Recall>Save>Type = Default (button) = Current (scope) settings.
Ah, page 290 in the user manual....RTFM... |O
And you´re right, tried this a minute ago, everything will be stored - except the print button.
-
Another strange thing:
As I played around with the image style thing, turning it to invert, and press reboot - after the reboot all usb connectivity got lost.
No flashdrive detection, no mouse detection…
Reboot again, nothing changes.
Shut it down, then turning on again - Ports will be detected…..
That happens to the usb root hub if you have a power fault, they dont turn back on until you hard cycle, look for ground loops but if not maybe faulty? I'd assume they would have one anyway like other products and especially considering its nature.. if not x_x
This was not the first time happen, I´m quiet sure.
And another strange thing concerning saving screenshots on stick:
Example, you took the stick into the port, taking a screenshot, it will be "named" with 1, what makes sense, because it is the first.
Next shots will be 2,3,4, etc...
So far so good.
But this will going only when you leave the stick connected.
If you put the stick out ( because you want to transfer the pic to pc) and then back, the first pic will be overwrite without a request.
Tomorrow I´ll examine it more exactly.
Hmm...Maybe it´s time for a dedicated bug and missing features thread.
-
Frex, Are you the same Frex as an DIY Audio? If so I have been following your audio analyzer build. Awesome work.
I did receive my LA probe set from Saelig. They are quite nice but not $300.00 nice. Would have nice to get a little storage pouch.
Hello,
Yes it's me from DIYaudio, I'm unmasked ! ^-^
The logic probe is very expensive for what is it, i agree.
Anyway, i will probably order it soon, no time to make this by myself...
Did you have play with ?
I would be curious to show how it perform with fast clock like 100MHz.
Comparing the Digital channel with analog channel if there is some skew or
it both signal are very well synchronous.
Regards.
Frex
(And thank you for your comment about the analyzer project :D)
-
I think I discovered the rule (or the symptom) of an upgraded SDS2000X+ becoming a 2354X+ (w/ 500MHz) or a 2504X+ model:
It's all in the S/N: :popcorn:
SDS2Pxxx3Rxxxx will turn into a 2354
SDS2Pxxx4Rxxxx will turn into a 2504
Mine is a 4R but turned into 2354, not 2504.
There goes the neighborhood. My hunch was wrong! |O
Mine is a 4R and became a 2504 on simple bandwidth.txt rename
-
I think I discovered the rule (or the symptom) of an upgraded SDS2000X+ becoming a 2354X+ (w/ 500MHz) or a 2504X+ model:
It's all in the S/N: :popcorn:
SDS2Pxxx3Rxxxx will turn into a 2354
SDS2Pxxx4Rxxxx will turn into a 2504
Mine is a 4R but turned into 2354, not 2504.
There goes the neighborhood. My hunch was wrong! |O
Mine is a 4R and became a 2504 on simple bandwidth.txt rename
The name depends on the bandwidth.
200M 2204
350M 2354
500M 2504
-
The name depends on the bandwidth.
200M 2204
350M 2354
500M 2504
In this model, not so!
-
This was not the first time happen, I´m quiet sure.
And another strange thing concerning saving screenshots on stick:
Example, you took the stick into the port, taking a screenshot, it will be "named" with 1, what makes sense, because it is the first.
Next shots will be 2,3,4, etc...
So far so good.
But this will going only when you leave the stick connected.
If you put the stick out ( because you want to transfer the pic to pc) and then back, the first pic will be overwrite without a request.
Tomorrow I´ll examine it more exactly.
Hmm...Maybe it´s time for a dedicated bug and missing features thread.
I can confirm this happens if you reboot the scope, so i think its clear its keeping the value in ram and not looking at the usb stick at all before writing
-
The name depends on the bandwidth.
200M 2204
350M 2354
500M 2504
In this model, not so!
Ever look at the calibration files? Maybe they are binning scopes and just didnt have enough to fill the base model so they used higher rated parts to backfill and its pot luck whatcha get?
-
I can confirm this happens if you reboot the scope, so i think its clear its keeping the value in ram and not looking at the usb stick at all before writing
So this should be corrected….
-
By the way - as I now apparently own a 500MHz scope, what's the conclusion on which probes to get to match the bandwidth? Bang for buck, which do you guys recommend?
-
Hi,
Same question here, there are some cheap 500Mhz probes on the market- but they are what they are, cheap….
This could be interesting but until now, I didn´t find any offer like his description:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2999752/?topicseen#msg2999752 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2999752/?topicseen#msg2999752)
-
By the way - as I now apparently own a 500MHz scope, what's the conclusion on which probes to get to match the bandwidth? Bang for buck, which do you guys recommend?
Some discussion in Reply #772 and later.
-
Hi,
Same question here, there are some cheap 500Mhz probes on the market- but they are what they are, cheap….
This could be interesting but until now, I didn´t find any offer like his description:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2999752/?topicseen#msg2999752 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2999752/?topicseen#msg2999752)
Right, a few offers for used probes of unclear origin. If I were to buy new, I think R&S RT-ZP05 could be a good deal. About €250 for a two-piece set.
-
My advice is not to bother with it.
I have a 1GHz scope and there is no practical difference between expensive 500Mhz Keysight probes and 350 MHz Testec probes (at 37 € per piece, TT-HF 212 13,5pF 10x).
In real life, most important parameter is probe tip capacitance.. And that will be large (10-14 pF) even for 500 MHz probes...
Passive probes bandwidth is measured by measuring terminated siggen, with effective source impedance of 25 Ohm.
It makes passive probes look "too optimistic".
Probing real life circuits (with higher impedance) will make your bandwidth defined with probe tip capacitance, not probe bandwidth.
If you want, save money and get active low capacitance probe. Testec TT-AF-1200 is 500-600€ new. And it has 1 MΩ, 3 pF input.
Many other active old used probes can be found too, with better specs.... Or use 50 Ohm coax and 10x 500/50Ohm passive probe for low impedance circuits..
Also, probes get damaged. If you really wish to buy "nicer" probes, use ones that came with scope initially, and with time, when they get damaged, buy other better ones if you feel need for upgrade..
It is easy to spend half of scope price for "better" probes and to get practically nothing in return...
Over 150-200 MHz even most expensive passive probes will be really bad...
Of course that's just my opinion.
-
In this case I must give Rigol a thumb up, even the 70Mhz scope got probes with 350Mhz BW.
Although it´s significant cheaper as the siglent.
You bought the 100Mhz model, so you get only cheapy probes with it, is somekind of weak as an argument.
What will happen, if you buy the official BW upgrade, do you also get new probes with it...
I guess no.
So in fact you will be punished when you first buy a "cheap" one from the siglent sds2K+ series and upgrading it later.
Rigols way is more better.
Yes, your scope is an 70Mhz BW one - But it could be, you´ll upgrade this thing up to the top of 350Mhz.
So we including 350Mhz probes for every scope type.
-
My advice is not to bother with it.
I have a 1GHz scope and there is no practical difference between expensive 500Mhz Keysight probes and 350 MHz Testec probes (at 37 € per piece, TT-HF 212 13,5pF 10x).
In real life, most important parameter is probe tip capacitance.. And that will be large (10-14 pF) even for 500 MHz probes...
Passive probes bandwidth is measured by measuring terminated siggen, with effective source impedance of 25 Ohm.
It makes passive probes look "too optimistic".
Probing real life circuits (with higher impedance) will make your bandwidth defined with probe tip capacitance, not probe bandwidth.
If you want, save money and get active low capacitance probe. Testec TT-AF-1200 is 500-600€ new. And it has 1 MΩ, 3 pF input.
Many other active old used probes can be found too, with better specs.... Or use 50 Ohm coax and 10x 500/50Ohm passive probe for low impedance circuits..
Also, probes get damaged. If you really wish to buy "nicer" probes, use ones that came with scope initially, and with time, when they get damaged, buy other better ones if you feel need for upgrade..
It is easy to spend half of scope price for "better" probes and to get practically nothing in return...
Over 150-200 MHz even most expensive passive probes will be really bad...
Of course that's just my opinion.
I completely agree.. in most cases its not warranted and if you are doing ghz and up you are dealing with a whole other beast and might be making your own
Those probes are only worth it if you need full calibrated specs for business purposes
My main probes im about to switch to are only rated for 100mhz but are constructed as helping hands ... utility much greater than the bw required .. no more fucking around trying to clip or actively holding something or soldering on flying leads
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Tek does have a 3.9 pF 10 Meg passive 10x probe but I don't know if it mates to scopes other than Teks. I believe the 500 MHz and 1 GHz probes are 3.9 pF. 2 pF is available for "1-1.5 GHz" passive probes 500/50 10:1 ohm typically.
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License key extraction for scope bandwidth
1. Login via telnet (pick your method)
2. Rename bandwidth.txt file to make it go into Pro mode, this will make it load all of its bandwidth keys into the heap
3. Reboot
4. Login via telnet (pick your method)
Run this shell script command
cat /proc/$(pidof main.app)/maps | grep heap | while read line; do start=0x$(echo $line | cut -c 0-8); end=0x$(echo $line | cut -c 10-18); dd if=/proc/$(pidof main.app)/mem bs=4096 skip=$(($start/4096)) count=$( echo $((($end-$start)/4096))) | grep -ohE "[A-Z0-9]{16}" | while read line; do echo "$line"; done; done
At the top of the heap will be keys for the following speeds, only some are recognized
50M*
70M
100M
150M*
200M
250M*
300M
350M
500M
750M*
1000M*
Yes that's right kiddies... there are keys for a 750Mhz and 1Ghz option
Someone want to kick their scope into 750/1000 mode and go fish? Can the front end even handle those speeds?
And for tv84, with the right keys the name follows just like other siglents.. what we need to find out is if a 500M key does kick a 350M into 500M and does the front end hold up?
Edit: After more looking around I saw that 750/1000 seems to be a generic thing they have going on.. but it did return as being in those modes so?
Also.. ran into this in another thread and it matches all my keys, this should full unlock anyone
https://repl.it/repls/DirectProbableTwintext
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what we need to find out is if a 500M key does kick a 350M into 500M and does the front end hold up?
Why shouldn't it ? :-//
Earlier in this thread the -3dB point has already been established as ~570 MHz for the 500 MHz option however at best on 2 channels only, one from each ADC.
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Edit: After more looking around I saw that 750/1000 seems to be a generic thing they have going on.. but it did return as being in those modes so?
Also.. ran into this in another thread and it matches all my keys, this should full unlock anyone
https://repl.it/repls/GainsboroAlienatedText
If you move stuff in otheropt up into bwopt, you can get keys for options.
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what we need to find out is if a 500M key does kick a 350M into 500M and does the front end hold up?
Why shouldn't it ? :-//
Earlier in this thread the -3dB point has already been established as ~570 MHz for the 500 MHz option however at best on 2 channels only, one from each ADC.
Thats for the odd mystery of why there are a mix of 350 and 500s when pulling the bandwidth.txt file
I'd assume anyone that has a 500 marked one would go full on but does a 350?
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what we need to find out is if a 500M key does kick a 350M into 500M and does the front end hold up?
Why shouldn't it ? :-//
Earlier in this thread the -3dB point has already been established as ~570 MHz for the 500 MHz option however at best on 2 channels only, one from each ADC.
Thats for the odd mystery of why there are a mix of 350 and 500s when pulling the bandwidth.txt file
I'd assume anyone that has a 500 marked one would go full on but does a 350?
That is THE confusion. When file is pulled, they ALL got (electricaly) to 500 MHz, but some show 2354 and some show 2504 as model number.
By the way, 750 and 1000 MHz in license is there for sds5000 I presume. There is no chance that 2000X+ has front end capable of 1 GHz. Actually, even 5000X has two hardware versions: one that is 350/500 Mhz and other that is 500MHz/1GHz. If you want to unlock 5000X to 1 GHz you need to buy 500MHz ver.
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If you want to unlock 5000X to 1 GHz you need to buy 500MHz ver.
Maybe not anymore... ;) Yet to confirm.
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If you want to unlock 5000X to 1 GHz you need to buy 500MHz ver.
Maybe not anymore... ;) Yet to confirm.
That would be VERY nice.. >:D
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Also.. ran into this in another thread and it matches all my keys, this should full unlock anyone
https://repl.it/repls/GainsboroAlienatedText
If you move stuff in otheropt up into bwopt, you can get keys for options.
Yes, the script is a bit broken, the "gen" function doesn't take it's argument into account.
But apart from that, I can confirm that it produces valid keys, except for the power analyzer option. I naively added 'PA' (that seems to be the name of the option) to the opts but the generated key doesn't match.
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If you want to unlock 5000X to 1 GHz you need to buy 500MHz ver.
Maybe not anymore... ;) Yet to confirm.
That would be VERY nice.. >:D
Indeed. More or less the only thing stopping me from ordering the SDS5034X is that it can't be upgraded to 1GHz. There are some hints (spec wise) that the frontend in the 500MHz model is different though, so even if the SW could be tricked into believing it's the 500MHz model that can be upgraded to 1GHz, I have some reservations that it will reach the full bandwidth. Still.
-
Also.. ran into this in another thread and it matches all my keys, this should full unlock anyone
https://repl.it/repls/GainsboroAlienatedText
If you move stuff in otheropt up into bwopt, you can get keys for options.
Yes, the script is a bit broken, the "gen" function doesn't take it's argument into account.
But apart from that, I can confirm that it produces valid keys, except for the power analyzer option. I naively added 'PA' (that seems to be the name of the option) to the opts but the generated key doesn't match.
It's PWA
use this version i modded just for the SDS2000X+
https://repl.it/repls/DirectProbableTwintext
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More or less the only thing stopping me from ordering the SDS5034X is that it can't be upgraded to 1GHz.
What about a loan?
-
Also.. ran into this in another thread and it matches all my keys, this should full unlock anyone
https://repl.it/repls/GainsboroAlienatedText
If you move stuff in otheropt up into bwopt, you can get keys for options.
Yes, the script is a bit broken, the "gen" function doesn't take it's argument into account.
But apart from that, I can confirm that it produces valid keys, except for the power analyzer option. I naively added 'PA' (that seems to be the name of the option) to the opts but the generated key doesn't match.
Anyone knows what "MAX" option is?
It's PWA
use this version i modded just for the SDS2000X+
https://repl.it/repls/DirectProbableTwintext
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Anyone knows what "MAX" option is?
Some kind of option key to enable maximum bandwidth, doesnt apply to this model
I do wonder about wifi though because under the hood it tries to load that option in even though its not in the menu
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Anyone knows what "MAX" option is?
Should be the same as the max BW option. But I've see it working only in one or two equipments. When it did, it seemed to provide a slightly higher BW (-3dB) than what was the "official" maximum settings.
Usually it's unaccepted.
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I do wonder about wifi though because under the hood it tries to load that option in even though its not in the menu
Maybe Siglent gave up on wifi dongles...
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use this version i modded just for the SDS2000X+
https://repl.it/repls/DirectProbableTwintext
Given that SCOPEID is invariant and opt is not, I like this version better ;-)
https://repl.it/repls/AwfulVacantComputer
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I do wonder about wifi though because under the hood it tries to load that option in even though its not in the menu
Maybe Siglent gave up on wifi dongles...
As they should have... that was kinda silly.. just put wifi/bt in it if your gonna do that
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As they should have... that was kinda silly.. just put wifi/bt in it if your gonna do that
Maybe then you have to deal with interferences...
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As they should have... that was kinda silly.. just put wifi/bt in it if your gonna do that
Maybe then you have to deal with interferences...
I would think not if they kept it as a true module that you can turn on and off
Some of my embedded hardware is like that to save batteries.. if your not talking then no reason for the radio to be on if not listening
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If you want to unlock 5000X to 1 GHz you need to buy 500MHz ver.
Maybe not anymore... ;) Yet to confirm.
That would be VERY nice.. >:D
Indeed. More or less the only thing stopping me from ordering the SDS5034X is that it can't be upgraded to 1GHz. There are some hints (spec wise) that the frontend in the 500MHz model is different though, so even if the SW could be tricked into believing it's the 500MHz model that can be upgraded to 1GHz, I have some reservations that it will reach the full bandwidth. Still.
Not entirely discussion for this thread so just quickly.... as you have read pre-release 5kX Mobo's had some issues at 1 GHz so they undoubtedly have been sold as 350 MHz models with a BW upgrade path to just 500 MHz.
The obvious to me is why would production still be producing 2 Mobo's for the same series, that's nuts yet the 'official' BW upgrade paths still remains and if you were in marketing you'd do the same wouldn't you ?
I can't prove it however I would lay good $ the 350 MHz and 1 GHz HW is identical now.
I too struggled with this decision soon after 5kX were released but forked out the extra for 5054X as at that time it was unknown which Mobo revision one would get.
I do wonder about wifi though because under the hood it tries to load that option in even though its not in the menu
Maybe Siglent gave up on wifi dongles...
They still sell. ;)
Different horses for different courses. ;)
The TP-Link WiFi dongle SW is contained within the FW applicable for models that feature WiFi as an option and the X-E series that feature WiFi are far more portable than 2kX Plus so more likely to be used in a domestic setting where Wifi connectivity is more convenient. Also with a bench full of equipment that may include RF gear, wired LAN will be the better option for the 'knowing' user.
Again, horses for courses. :)
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Hello,
all Bandwidth keys >500Mhz are without function.
On the contrary, the horizontal resolution is then maximum 1ns(500Mhz = 500ps), the -3db point is around 350Mhz, the device becomes cumbersome to operate.
The other keys will lead to success.
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Hello all,
I played today a little with the scope and i have found some issues.
When using the vertical zoom (that is a great mode), it seem to be not possible
to use it with Math trace (in my case averaging).
I Also don't know why the average mode is not in acquisition menu of the scope,
not a trace to be added separately. This would be IMHO much more comfortable.
I have to say also, that i find the displayed measurements (rms voltage, frequency, others ...)
are variying too faster and then prevents to read a correct value (many digits moving fast).
I think displayed values would need to be more filtered, it's a non-sens to update the value
more than few times /s.
Of course, the real fast values is useful to provide signal statistic and more.
Frex
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Hello all,
I played today a little with the scope and i have found some issues.
When using the vertical zoom (that is a great mode), it seem to be not possible
to use it with Math trace (in my case averaging).
I Also don't know why the average mode is not in acquisition menu of the scope,
not a trace to be added separately. This would be IMHO much more comfortable.
I have to say also, that i find the displayed measurements (rms voltage, frequency, others ...)
are variying too faster and then prevents to read a correct value (many digits moving fast).
I think displayed values would need to be more filtered, it's a non-sens to update the value
more than few times /s.
Of course, the real fast values is useful to provide signal statistic and more.
Frex
Some explanation here however with prerelease firmware:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2840802/#msg2840802 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2840802/#msg2840802)
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Hello Tautech,
I 've seen that. I must admit that it's not a satisfying answer for me.
So, it is a separate function, but why to not be able with zoom function as others traces ?
Anyway, i would have another question, i played yesterday with zone mode
(that is again a great function) and after reading the manual i've seen that zone mode
can be used to select region for histogram measurements (see page 42/324 of manual).
I haven't been able to find this, could you say how to perform this ?
Regards.
Frex
(Note : Is there any reason that the Siglent pdf manual doesn't allow to make text search ? It is very annoying for find something ).
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Hello Tautech,
I 've seen that. I must admit that it's not a satisfying answer for me.
So, it is a separate function, but why to not be able with zoom function as others traces ?
IDK and now the only 2kX Plus I had is sold and I cannot check for you with 5kX as it does not yet have vertical zoom.
Anyway, i would have another question, i played yesterday with zone mode
(that is again a great function) and after reading the manual i've seen that zone mode
can be used to select region for histogram measurements (see page 42/324 of manual).
I haven't been able to find this, could you say how to perform this ?
See Measurement Gate p192.
We know there is some further polishing to come however as I'm not privy to all the beta testers have recommended so we can only wait for the next FW.
Note : Is there any reason that the Siglent pdf manual doesn't allow to make text search ? It is very annoying for find something
Again IDK but this manual is in some ways better than other Siglent manuals as you can quickly return to the start and Contents menu with a press of the Home button on your keyboard and click another topic and jump to that.
I normally just read the manual in a browser so I haven't checked its behavior with a pdf reader.
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Hello Tautech,
I 've seen that. I must admit that it's not a satisfying answer for me.
So, it is a separate function, but why to not be able with zoom function as others traces ?
Anyway, i would have another question, i played yesterday with zone mode
(that is again a great function) and after reading the manual i've seen that zone mode
can be used to select region for histogram measurements (see page 42/324 of manual).
I haven't been able to find this, could you say how to perform this ?
Regards.
Frex
(Note : Is there any reason that the Siglent pdf manual doesn't allow to make text search ? It is very annoying for find something ).
Download manual again from www.siglenteu.com (http://www.siglenteu.com), the official EU site. There is a manual in circulation (downloadable form some of distributors) that has errors in it and search doesn't work properly..
Ignore that, manual from siglenteu.com has errors too. I will check which one doesn't and post here.
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Hello Tautech,
I 've seen that. I must admit that it's not a satisfying answer for me.
So, it is a separate function, but why to not be able with zoom function as others traces ?
Anyway, i would have another question, i played yesterday with zone mode
(that is again a great function) and after reading the manual i've seen that zone mode
can be used to select region for histogram measurements (see page 42/324 of manual).
I haven't been able to find this, could you say how to perform this ?
Regards.
Frex
(Note : Is there any reason that the Siglent pdf manual doesn't allow to make text search ? It is very annoying for find something ).
Download manual again from www.siglenteu.com (http://www.siglenteu.com), the official EU site. There is a manual in circulation (downloadable form some of distributors) that has errors in it and search doesn't work properly..
Ignore that, manual from siglenteu.com has errors too. I will check which one doesn't and post here.
OK, manual from www.siglenteu.com (http://www.siglenteu.com) is bad, it throws errors when opening. Manual from siglent.com and Batronix is without errors....
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More or less the only thing stopping me from ordering the SDS5034X is that it can't be upgraded to 1GHz.
What about a loan?
Is there a (safe) way to remove an option?
Anyway: I figure the hash and algorithm is the same, so basically using "SDS5000X" as model would work?
-
More or less the only thing stopping me from ordering the SDS5034X is that it can't be upgraded to 1GHz.
What about a loan?
Is there a (safe) way to remove an option?
Anyway: I figure the hash and algorithm is the same, so basically using "SDS5000X" as model would work?
Yes, but not public.
Yes, because the FW is the same.
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Hello friends of the Siglent SDS2000X Plus.
I have just downloaded and tried out the SDS200X Plus manual from the Siglent homepage www.siglenteu.com (http://www.siglenteu.com). It is called "SDS2000X-Plus_UserManual_UM0102XP-E01A.pdf". Everything works without errors. Also another user has no problems, so the error must be yours.
Therefore always be careful with error messages, thank you.
Addendum.
I also tried the built-in manual (Help), that works fine too. I have to say, I have a SDS2354X Plus which is not hacked. Hacking is indecent.
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Hello friends of the Siglent SDS2000X Plus.
I have just downloaded and tried out the SDS200X Plus manual from the Siglent homepage www.siglenteu.com (http://www.siglenteu.com). It is called "SDS2000X-Plus_UserManual_UM0102XP-E01A.pdf". Everything works without errors. Also another user has no problems, so the error must be yours.
Therefore always be careful with error messages, thank you.
Addendum.
I also tried the built-in manual (Help), that works fine too. I have to say, I have a SDS2354X Plus which is not hacked. Hacking is indecent.
Addendum.
If you have downloaded the manual from the homepage www.siglent.eu (http://www.siglent.eu) there are a few small errors. But www.siglent.eu (http://www.siglent.eu) is not Siglent Europe, it's just a dealer.
Siglent Europa has the homepage www. Siglenteu.com
There are two version of PDF of the same latest version manual out on internet.
One that I downloaded from siglenteu.com , the official Siglent EU site, ver "UM0102XP-E01A " is called "SDS2000X-Plus_UserManual_UM0102XP-E01A.pdf" and is 25,7 MB (27.022.244 bytes) in size , and gives error when opening.
Error is : "- The object was not described in the current, or previous, chunks, but a description was found in the next chunks (valid for linearized files)"
Same manual "UM0102XP-E01A", "SDS2000X Plus_UserManual_UM0102XP-E01A.pdf", from siglent.com (official US Siglent site) is 34,9 MB (36.681.527 bytes) in size and gives no error when opening.
But both versions have problem with searching in PDF viewer PDF-XChange Editor. For instance if you search for word "peak" (like peak detect) it doesn't find it. That same search works just fine in SDS5000X PDF Manual. When trying to open it in Adobe reader XI it crashes the reader completely when you start search.
So no it's not fine..
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Hello. I tried it too. My siglenteu.com file is 34.9MB in size. But you are right, if you enter the word peak it will not be found. I will investigate it further and report it to siglent if necessary.
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More or less the only thing stopping me from ordering the SDS5034X is that it can't be upgraded to 1GHz.
What about a loan?
Is there a (safe) way to remove an option?
Anyway: I figure the hash and algorithm is the same, so basically using "SDS5000X" as model would work?
Yes, but not public.
Yes, because the FW is the same.
You have to go under the hood and is do able but not without leaving traces behind and could still be recovered and found out on a deep inspection of the memory so dont get any bright ideas
Hacking gear pretty much defacto invalidates most warranties and should be realized as such and not used for commercial purposes
On the hobbyist / enthusiast level most companies wont chase someone because they realize that their use of their product most likely in turn means they get sales at whoever they work for
Our shop at work is almost completely siglent now for new gear because its the best bang for the buck and in that space is pennies on the dollar already; + you want calibration services etc which means sending gear in usually or a specialist comes out if you got enough work for them
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There are two version of PDF of the same latest version manual out on internet.
One that I downloaded from siglenteu.com , the official Siglent EU site, ver "UM0102XP-E01A " is called "SDS2000X-Plus_UserManual_UM0102XP-E01A.pdf" and is 25,7 MB (27.022.244 bytes) in size , and gives error when opening.
Sorry to say but I have no problem opening the file that you refer:
https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2019/12/SDS2000X-Plus_UserManual_UM0102XP-E01A.pdf (https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2019/12/SDS2000X-Plus_UserManual_UM0102XP-E01A.pdf)
Yes, it has 27022244 bytes, 324 pages and CRC32 EEE60919.
You must have a broken/old PDF viewer/plugin.
The other one is as yous said:
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/document/SDS2000X%20Plus_UserManual_UM0102XP-E01A.pdf (https://int.siglent.com/u_file/document/SDS2000X%20Plus_UserManual_UM0102XP-E01A.pdf)
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Hello. There is no manual in any of the SDS2000X Pro manuals except the first page with the range photo (title only). The rest of the manual is not classic PDF text but a converted image (only manual images - jpg), so it is not real text with search support. I would also appreciate the manual where the apartment went. I tried to edit it via OCR, but it's too many pages to do well.
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Hello. There is no manual in any of the SDS2000X Pro manuals except the first page with the range photo (title only).
That's not correct. The fact that you're unable to search text doesn't mean it's a concatenations of raster images.
Just to give you an example: the index page correctly indexes the sub-chapters all over the document.
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Hello. There is no manual in any of the SDS2000X Pro manuals except the first page with the range photo (title only).
That's not correct. The fact that you're unable to search text doesn't mean it's a concatenations of raster images.
Just to give you an example: the index page correctly indexes the sub-chapters all over the document.
The only numbers that are in the index are the text, then the title on each page and the introductory page. All the text in the manual is really pictures. Individual small fragments. Try opening the manual in Adobe Acrobat (editor) and try editing. It will show you above each word that it is a picture. (Verified)
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There are two version of PDF of the same latest version manual out on internet.
One that I downloaded from siglenteu.com , the official Siglent EU site, ver "UM0102XP-E01A " is called "SDS2000X-Plus_UserManual_UM0102XP-E01A.pdf" and is 25,7 MB (27.022.244 bytes) in size , and gives error when opening.
Sorry to say but I have no problem opening the file that you refer:
https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2019/12/SDS2000X-Plus_UserManual_UM0102XP-E01A.pdf (https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2019/12/SDS2000X-Plus_UserManual_UM0102XP-E01A.pdf)
Yes, it has 27022244 bytes, 324 pages and CRC32 EEE60919.
You must have a broken/old PDF viewer/plugin.
The other one is as yous said:
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/document/SDS2000X%20Plus_UserManual_UM0102XP-E01A.pdf (https://int.siglent.com/u_file/document/SDS2000X%20Plus_UserManual_UM0102XP-E01A.pdf)
I can open it. But it gives an error I listed. You can browse file just fine.
I went and updated adobe XI and it doesn't crash now. But like Svrbinek said, there is no full text index in file, just bookmarks and some fragments are searchable. Search for word "peak"... I'm no PDF expert so I won't speculate what is wrong..
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It was done in Microsoft Word and then improperly exported for the Internets... they pushed a print version made for... printing
Nothing exciting to see other than the manual is annoying for searching
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It was done in Microsoft Word and then improperly exported for the Internets... they pushed a print version made for... printing
Nothing exciting to see other than the manual is annoying for searching
Well, yes, but search is the whole beauty of PDF books.. ^-^
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I´ve just print the manual out, or let it print as a book. ;)
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Wasteful.
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Hello friends of the Siglent SDS2000X Plus.
..., so the error must be yours.
Therefore always be careful with error messages, thank you.
I really wonder if tautech actually thinks nobody remembers that this is his fake account just because he deleted (nearly) all incriminating posts ::)
Jeez, either stand up to you posts or just swallow them down.
This account has nothing to do with Tautech, there is not a single bit of evidence it is him. You are wrong.
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Wasteful.
Sure, but I like to have "papers" in my hands instead of looking at the screen - Even if it was a 4 pages datasheet I "must" print it out... :palm: ;)
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Wasteful.
Sure, but I like to have "papers" in my hands instead of looking at the screen - Even if it was a 4 pages datasheet I "must" print it out... :palm: ;)
I was like that for many years. But at one point it became too much. I have very little physical space... Now I have "library" disk on network that I sort by topic and use search to find stuff.. Much faster. If I need something (few pages) I print on demand for that purpose. It took time to get used to it, but it works for me now..
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Wasteful.
Sure, but I like to have "papers" in my hands instead of looking at the screen - Even if it was a 4 pages datasheet I "must" print it out... :palm: ;)
I was like that for many years. But at one point it became too much. I have very little physical space... Now I have "library" disk on network that I sort by topic and use search to find stuff.. Much faster. If I need something (few pages) I print on demand for that purpose. It took time to get used to it, but it works for me now..
Thats how i do mine but i'll usually print out datasheets to scribble on still while working with whatever
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For someone who is no stranger to English, this is not a problem, but for non-speaking English users, a searchable pdf is a must. Just enter a keyword and see if there is a mention somewhere, if not, try another similar word, etc. I hope the manual will be fixed.
And I would immediately take the opportunity to ask about two range functions.
1. Is it possible to automatically stop the measurement on the screen when a certain phenomenon occurs? I was measuring switching pulses and needed to see the leading edge, but I had to choose a slower speed (roll mode). Then it was no longer as detailed as when I accidentally stopped and caught the impulse.
2. The second query is focused on when I monitor pulses in roll mode, whether it is possible to display the times when the pulse was detected in the time axis above the pulse.
Perhaps I have described everything clearly. If not, then write and complete.
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For someone who is no stranger to English, this is not a problem, but for non-speaking English users, a searchable pdf is a must. Just enter a keyword and see if there is a mention somewhere, if not, try another similar word, etc. I hope the manual will be fixed.
And I would immediately take the opportunity to ask about two range functions.
1. Is it possible to automatically stop the measurement on the screen when a certain phenomenon occurs? I was measuring switching pulses and needed to see the leading edge, but I had to choose a slower speed (roll mode). Then it was no longer as detailed as when I accidentally stopped and caught the impulse.
2. The second query is focused on when I monitor pulses in roll mode, whether it is possible to display the times when the pulse was detected in the time axis above the pulse.
Perhaps I have described everything clearly. If not, then write and complete.
1. You use Normal (not auto) triggering mode and setup trigger for pulse you want to catch... history buffers will hold previous events.
2. On single long capture you setup search function (with method similar to triggers) and it will find all pulses that conform to criteria
3. there is pulse number measurement, that will count pulses above threshold (or rising edges, or falling edges) on screen or within time gates you setup
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It was done in Microsoft Word and then improperly exported for the Internets... they pushed a print version made for... printing
Nothing exciting to see other than the manual is annoying for searching
Well, yes, but search is the whole beauty of PDF books.. ^-^
+1 for searchable PDF manuals
For other Siglent products I have found searchable PDF manuals but for some reason the pdf manuals I have found for the SDS2000X Plus Series are not searchable (except for a few title or header lines).
Update: It seems to be a problem with the User Manual for the SDS2000X Plus Series whether it's found at siglent.com, siglent na, or siglent eu. The data sheet for the SDS2000X Plus Series is searchable, and the manual for other scopes such as the 5000 and 2000 X+E are searchable.
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Yes, searchable PDFs are the main advantage over a printed printed manual. At least they had the intuition to provide an index, without that the PDF manual would've been completely useless.
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but for some reason the pdf manuals I have found for the SDS2000X Plus Series are not searchable (except for a few title or header lines).
Or for some keywords like trigger, decode, serial..
Weird behaviour.
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Or for some keywords like trigger, decode, serial..
Or Siglent :-//
Not knowing the pdf file structure it isn't obvious how they could create a pdf file with text search that only works with a few terms. It seems to me that it would have been easier to create one that actually works. I wonder if it has something to do with the original not being in English.
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For someone who is no stranger to English, this is not a problem, but for non-speaking English users, a searchable pdf is a must. Just enter a keyword and see if there is a mention somewhere, if not, try another similar word, etc. I hope the manual will be fixed.
And I would immediately take the opportunity to ask about two range functions.
1. Is it possible to automatically stop the measurement on the screen when a certain phenomenon occurs? I was measuring switching pulses and needed to see the leading edge, but I had to choose a slower speed (roll mode). Then it was no longer as detailed as when I accidentally stopped and caught the impulse.
2. The second query is focused on when I monitor pulses in roll mode, whether it is possible to display the times when the pulse was detected in the time axis above the pulse.
Perhaps I have described everything clearly. If not, then write and complete.
1. You use Normal (not auto) triggering mode and setup trigger for pulse you want to catch... history buffers will hold previous events.
2. On single long capture you setup search function (with method similar to triggers) and it will find all pulses that conform to criteria
3. there is pulse number measurement, that will count pulses above threshold (or rising edges, or falling edges) on screen or within time gates you setup
Thanks so much for the reply. I'm actually just learning with the oscilloscope, but he's already helped me a lot.
1. I tried it and it works exactly according to my ideas. It is even possible to use single mod.
2. I don't quite understand that. Is it possible to make a screen of what it would look like and how to search? I had the roll mod set to high times, for example 200s per piece. I was measuring the signals from the electricity meters and I needed to compare it between the oscilloscope and the Home Assistant and assign times to the individual pulses. To know exactly how many pulses there were at what minute. Is it working?
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For someone who is no stranger to English, this is not a problem, but for non-speaking English users, a searchable pdf is a must. Just enter a keyword and see if there is a mention somewhere, if not, try another similar word, etc. I hope the manual will be fixed.
And I would immediately take the opportunity to ask about two range functions.
1. Is it possible to automatically stop the measurement on the screen when a certain phenomenon occurs? I was measuring switching pulses and needed to see the leading edge, but I had to choose a slower speed (roll mode). Then it was no longer as detailed as when I accidentally stopped and caught the impulse.
2. The second query is focused on when I monitor pulses in roll mode, whether it is possible to display the times when the pulse was detected in the time axis above the pulse.
Perhaps I have described everything clearly. If not, then write and complete.
1. You use Normal (not auto) triggering mode and setup trigger for pulse you want to catch... history buffers will hold previous events.
2. On single long capture you setup search function (with method similar to triggers) and it will find all pulses that conform to criteria
3. there is pulse number measurement, that will count pulses above threshold (or rising edges, or falling edges) on screen or within time gates you setup
Thanks so much for the reply. I'm actually just learning with the oscilloscope, but he's already helped me a lot.
1. I tried it and it works exactly according to my ideas. It is even possible to use single mod.
2. I don't quite understand that. Is it possible to make a screen of what it would look like and how to search? I had the roll mod set to high times, for example 200s per piece. I was measuring the signals from the electricity meters and I needed to compare it between the oscilloscope and the Home Assistant and assign times to the individual pulses. To know exactly how many pulses there were at what minute. Is it working?
Thank you for explaining better. For your use case, best is to use triggering (like you already said it works),and set timebase to one pulse width, or a bit longer, not the length of the whole 200sec . Set scope to sequence mode (take a look at manual). Every time you get trigger, it will take one screen and save into memory, and will keep saving them like that, like pages in Power point presentation. In between pulses it will not record anything, simply will wait for next trigger. You can then take a look at how many you got, and every single one will have proper timestamp. You can take a look at every single one too, on screen.
Make note that in Sequence mode scope won't display anything until you stop it. This mode is used when pulses are really close together. If pulses are not that close (more than few milliseconds apart), you can get away with only history mode on. That one functions the same except you don't do anything special. During normal scope sweeps, it will save previous screen into history buffers, same as Sequence mode..
You can also search over history segments...
You really need to read manual in detail. That scope is pretty sophisticated..
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On siglent international website there´s a direct comparision between sds2K+, keysight, tektronix, r&s and rigol:
https://int.siglent.com/products-comparison/sds2000xp/#navs
The trigger types could be a little bit more, like the rigol got.
And they could have also included the 50 Ohm and auto sense inputs in the list.
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It was done in Microsoft Word and then improperly exported for the Internets... they pushed a print version made for... printing
Nothing exciting to see other than the manual is annoying for searching
Well, yes, but search is the whole beauty of PDF books.. ^-^
+1 for searchable PDF manuals
For other Siglent products I have found searchable PDF manuals but for some reason the pdf manuals I have found for the SDS2000X Plus Series are not searchable (except for a few title or header lines).
Update: It seems to be a problem with the User Manual for the SDS2000X Plus Series whether it's found at siglent.com, siglent na, or siglent eu. The data sheet for the SDS2000X Plus Series is searchable, and the manual for other scopes such as the 5000 and 2000 X+E are searchable.
Like i said.. some boobie published a version made for printing hard copies.. they need to take their word document and reexport it properly which takes all of 5 minutes.. but then im sure they have whatever iso processes or the like to clear after
Tau is currently the best shot at getting an actual usable manual from them and correcting their mistake less one of them just happens to see this instead i'd think or anyone else with direct contacts
Till then.. i'll be using my own fixed version :P It's their own content so i wont be releasing it but if you want to make your own the basic premise is to convert the current one into a high quality tiff format then OCR it, then take the original and replace all the pages but the TOC
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..................
Tau is currently the best shot at getting an actual usable manual from them and correcting their mistake less one of them just happens to see this instead i'd think or anyone else with direct contacts
......................
Maybe not, SolderingIron already has this under control apparently however a fix date is unknown yet....it's still the weekend after all !
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I am working on a new version of the manual, where it will be possible to search :-) I have already finished 20 pages. It's slow but it will work as if the original was like this from the beginning.
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Here is the new version of the search manual. If you come across any errors, write to me and correct me.
To download, you need to enter the password: Siglent
The best quality version is 160.5 MB
http://gofile.me/6pUlI/nr1whIQeC (http://gofile.me/6pUlI/nr1whIQeC)
Best quality version .zip 50.1MB
http://gofile.me/6pUlI/7fXa9Kcv3 (http://gofile.me/6pUlI/7fXa9Kcv3)
Medium quality version 20.6MB
http://gofile.me/6pUlI/tYFo9pAph (http://gofile.me/6pUlI/tYFo9pAph)
Medium quality version .zip 11.5MB
http://gofile.me/6pUlI/betpf2iUm (http://gofile.me/6pUlI/betpf2iUm)
Enjoy :-)
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Nice, thank you. :)
Grabbed the full 160 MB version and searched for a few words and it seems to work great. :clap:
No added credit to the manual in recognition for your good work ? :-//
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Hi and thank you. I'm glad you like it and it works. I don't need any recognition there. You help others here too, and I could do this for everyone, because I'm not as good at electronics as you are. However, I am now working on translating the manual into Czech and 25% is done. It's very slow but thanks to that I will be able to study it :-)
Otherwise, someone mentioned that he discovered VNC. Yes, it is written about in the manual :-)
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I think, siglent should honour this, by at least make it official avaible, also the czech version, and by naming the author.
At least...
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I think, siglent should honour this, by at least make it official avaible, also the czech version, and by naming the author.
At least...
IP rights.. same reason i wasnt going to stick my neck out for it, that opens up a host of copyright / infringement issues and legal exposure depending where you live
In the states most rights are use it or lose it forcing many companies to otherwise defend / go offensive even for good intent when it comes to their IP which has lead to many ridiculous outcomes; technically he is also now publishing it
Fantastic work though
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Hi all,
As others, a great thank you to Svrbinek for the "upgraded" manual. :-+
A pity that doesn't come from Siglent himself.
I played again with my "pimped" SDS2104X-Plus and have some bad things.
The internal generator is very limited, it include several build in waveforms,
but no way have modulated waveforms available... :--
I have also experienced an issue, when I saved a waveform on USB key,
the previous recorded waveform was overwritten by the new !
Anyway, without understand why and just after seeing options in some menus,
that seem work now and each new saved file have a new name ( xxx_01.png ,xxx_02.png , xxx_03.png, etc....).
To follow near... :-\
I Played also a lot with the Bode plot and I found an unexpected behavior that occur at low frequency (10Hz-10kHz range).
Sometimes there is a wrong measurement and spikes appears on Bode plot result.
You can show below an example :
(http://oneaudio.net/Pict/SDS2354X%20Plus_PNG_4.png)
This of course not come from my setup, i checked twice.
There is even no DUT, Generator output is sent to both scope inputs that made Vout/Vin, so we expect flat response.
AS you can see, there is a fault spike. There is no noise source source around me.
I have also a complain about the bode plot, i really don't understand why the frequency range is limited to 10Hz. ???
The generator itself can go to much lower frequencies...
I think the Siglent algorithm to make the Bode plot measurement is not very well optimized,
Bode plot take lot of time (If i compare for example with Analog-Discovery).
So nothing unacceptable, but Siglent have room to work on a new improved firmware.. :-/O
Frex
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The lower frequency limit is due to channel AC coupling. I didn't check yet whether this can be changed.
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I have also a complain about the bode plot, i really don't understand why the frequency range is limited to 10Hz. ???
The generator itself can go to much lower frequencies...
This has been discussed earlier and there might be chance for small improvement however as the channel inputs are AC coupled when in Bode plot, performance at low frequencies is dominated by the input's AC response.
I think the Siglent algorithm to make the Bode plot measurement is not very well optimized,
Bode plot take lot of time (If i compare for example with Analog-Discovery).
Lowering the Points will increase Bode plot speed.
It's about speed vs accuracy. Pick your poison. ;)
So nothing unacceptable, but Siglent have room to work on a new improved firmware..
Yep, this. :-+
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Siglent could implement a calibration mode, like you'd do with a network analyser.
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I have also experienced an issue, when I saved a waveform on USB key,
the previous recorded waveform was overwritten by the new !
Anyway, without understand why and just after seeing options in some menus,
that seem work now and each new saved file have a new name ( xxx_01.png ,xxx_02.png , xxx_03.png, etc....).
To follow near... :-\
Was already reported here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/msg3035508/#msg3035508).
In this thread, the awg´s missing features could be reported too.
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I have also experienced an issue, when I saved a waveform on USB key,
the previous recorded waveform was overwritten by the new !
Anyway, without understand why and just after seeing options in some menus,
that seem work now and each new saved file have a new name ( xxx_01.png ,xxx_02.png , xxx_03.png, etc....).
To follow near... :-\
Was already reported here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/msg3035508/#msg3035508).
In this thread, the awg´s missing features could be reported too.
Ok, I will do this.
Anyway, the big concern is most the wrong spikes occuring when Bode plotting.
Frex
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I can not reproduce wrong measurements nor spikes.
[attachimg=1]
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Hello DL2XY,
The wrong measurements points doesn't always appear,
but it seem that it's related to sweep number of point.
With 100 points and 25 points I don't have seen the issue,
but this morning with 50 points I experienced three time in a row the issue.
I posted also the config page if you want to try using same setup.
Frex
--
(http://oneaudio.net/Pict/BodeBad1.png)
(http://oneaudio.net/Pict/BodeBadconfig.png)
--
(http://oneaudio.net/Pict/BodeBad3.png)
(http://oneaudio.net/Pict/BodeBadconfig3.png)
--
(http://oneaudio.net/Pict/BodeBad4.png)
(http://oneaudio.net/Pict/BodeBadconfig4.png)
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Hello Frex,
Tryed again by succesively adopting your settings:
1. used 50 points - ok
2. used Auto Gain - ok
3. reversed CH1/Ch2 - bingo... :--
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
After this Failure every saved screenshot is numbered "_1" ?!
Walter
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Note from Siglent:
SIGLENT have addressed the SDS2000X Plus User manual to allow it to be searched.
The new version is UM0102XP-E01B and you can download it here:
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/01/SDS2000X_Plus_UserManual_UM0102XP-E01B.pdf
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So I managed to finish the manual in the Czech language. Complete editing, graphic editing and indexing was necessary :-) But it looks better than the original in English, where there are quite a few errors. It was difficult :-)
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Note from Siglent:
SIGLENT have addressed the SDS2000X Plus User manual to allow it to be searched.
The new version is UM0102XP-E01B and you can download it here:
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/01/SDS2000X_Plus_UserManual_UM0102XP-E01B.pdf
Hi, the manual that is now with the search is from page 18-25 in French. Well, if Siglent and Oscilloscopes do this, then good things are not waiting for us in the future :-D
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Hi, the manual that is now with the search is from page 18 in French.
:-DD (nobody said it should be searchable in english!)
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Note from Siglent:
SIGLENT have addressed the SDS2000X Plus User manual to allow it to be searched.
The new version is UM0102XP-E01B and you can download it here:
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/01/SDS2000X_Plus_UserManual_UM0102XP-E01B.pdf
Hi, the manual that is now with the search is from page 18-25 in French. Well, if Siglent and Oscilloscopes do this, then good things are not waiting for us in the future :-D
LOL it's not. It is manual for North America, that includes Canada. It is customary to provide "Exigence de Sécurité ", General Safety Summary in French in manual... It is in English. allright...
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Where is the spanish warnings? It's clearly racist.... :horse: :box:
On another note... I've left my unit hooked up to my SDG2000X via LAN and it has yet to do the same fault shown as others on the bode, would appear limited to the internal AWG?
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Where is the spanish warnings? It's clearly racist.... :horse: :box:
Mais pas au Canada... :-DD
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Nope... i finally got one on an external arb too
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Doesnt seem to matter on number of points.. just randomly does it
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Bode plotting slowing the system massively down - Maybe the dips representing a shortly interruption from the bode "programm" to do something else.
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Bode plotting slowing the system massively down - Maybe the dips representing a shortly interruption from the bode "programm" to do something else.
Not the case if the dip repeats at the same frequency in multiple runs
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That does not make sense if it happens with internal awg where it can take all day to take a measurement and still get a proper plot since it's in control of the awg.
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That does not make sense if it happens with internal awg where it can take all day to take a measurement and still get a proper plot since it's in control of the awg.
It works only with Siglent AWG's it can control...
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Does it happen in "Vout/Vin" mode and also in "Vout" mode?
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That does not make sense if it happens with internal awg where it can take all day to take a measurement and still get a proper plot since it's in control of the awg.
It works only with Siglent AWG's it can control...
That's my point. It controls the input and should be reading input and output. Getting spikes like that wouldn't be about the program being busy with some other task it would simply slow down the operation not cause errors.
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That does not make sense if it happens with internal awg where it can take all day to take a measurement and still get a proper plot since it's in control of the awg.
It works only with Siglent AWG's it can control...
That's my point. It controls the input and should be reading input and output. Getting spikes like that wouldn't be about the program being busy with some other task it would simply slow down the operation not cause errors.
Why do you think that? Algorithm is usually not adaptive. It probably simply changes frequency, waits for signal to settle, takes measurements (for averaging), moves on..
On each frequency point it will need dwell time, and that will be variable with frequency. Maybe it simply doesn't wait enough for siggen to settle, or measuring too quick ...
It would be useful to take a look with another scope...
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That's what I suspect, it's not monitoring input and assuming gen is ready when that's not the case. If you're reading the input and output it'd be a software bug or hardware failure. If the program got busy it'd just slow things down. Not sure how it could possibly cause errors in the plot.
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Simple and stupid is what i think...
a race condition; which several of you are alluding too
Now where? Hard to say other than its reading an incorrect value at somewhere in its logic path
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I think I found a bug.
After rebooting the box, the vertical position of the channels is where I left them, but the channel markers and info are wrong.
In the specific example the vertical offset was set to -3V for C1 and -1V for C2.
The restored values displayed are -300mV and -100mV.
However the waveform is offset correctly.
I think they don't take into consideration that the probes are 10X
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Simple and stupid is what i think...
a race condition; which several of you are alluding too
Now where? Hard to say other than its reading an incorrect value at somewhere in its logic path
A race condition is not going to lead to repeatable errors like this. The invalid point is constant over many sweeps, as I understand. There seems to be no randomness, other than the bug appearing sometimes and not another time, but when it's there, it's there over many sweeps.
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Simple and stupid is what i think...
a race condition; which several of you are alluding too
Now where? Hard to say other than its reading an incorrect value at somewhere in its logic path
A race condition is not going to lead to repeatable errors like this. The invalid point is constant over many sweeps, as I understand. There seems to be no randomness, other than the bug appearing sometimes and not another time, but when it's there, it's there over many sweeps.
Hello,
I don't know for others, but for me the error point is not always the same.
You can see on previous posts the different results.
Sometime one points, sometimes two...
The error point is always at low frequency (<1kHz).
Frex
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Simple and stupid is what i think...
a race condition; which several of you are alluding too
Now where? Hard to say other than its reading an incorrect value at somewhere in its logic path
A race condition is not going to lead to repeatable errors like this. The invalid point is constant over many sweeps, as I understand. There seems to be no randomness, other than the bug appearing sometimes and not another time, but when it's there, it's there over many sweeps.
Mine is random and not in the same place
Should also note the only consistent part i've seen so far is that its always sub 100Hz, just going to let it run all day and let it churn at 10Hz to 120Mhz
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Got another one, twice just over 100Hz
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I just happened to be looking at it when it did one just now
Maybe not a delay.. i think they just got something wrong somewhere, my scope made a clicking noise like it was changing a relay or something
So... what is triggering it to want to do this relay flip?
Yep it did it again... it clicks THEN the error in the graph shows up
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It might be something simple like autoranging during sampling.... Does it have autoranging and adaptive level?
Maybe something like this from another FRA :
"Outstanding bugs
The method of changing frequencies results in discontinuities in the function generator output. When in AC coupling mode, the DC offsets introduced by these discontinuities take some time to settle out. The program tries to adapt to this, but is not perfect. The main issue is at very low frequencies where there can be a DC offset decay that appears in the captured data. This is largely compensated by the DFT, but may affect noise measurement.
"
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I would say that description fits like a glove.
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It might be something simple like autoranging during sampling.... Does it have autoranging and adaptive level?
Maybe something like this from another FRA :
"Outstanding bugs
The method of changing frequencies results in discontinuities in the function generator output. When in AC coupling mode, the DC offsets introduced by these discontinuities take some time to settle out. The program tries to adapt to this, but is not perfect. The main issue is at very low frequencies where there can be a DC offset decay that appears in the captured data. This is largely compensated by the DFT, but may affect noise measurement.
"
Yes, it does autoranging if you let it. But IIRC, @Frex mentioned that the error happens also without autoranging.
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It might be something simple like autoranging during sampling.... Does it have autoranging and adaptive level?
Maybe something like this from another FRA :
"Outstanding bugs
The method of changing frequencies results in discontinuities in the function generator output. When in AC coupling mode, the DC offsets introduced by these discontinuities take some time to settle out. The program tries to adapt to this, but is not perfect. The main issue is at very low frequencies where there can be a DC offset decay that appears in the captured data. This is largely compensated by the DFT, but may affect noise measurement.
"
Yes, it does autoranging if you let it. But IIRC, @Frex mentioned that the error happens also without autoranging.
I mentioned autoranging for completeness, thank you for letting me know, didn't catch that what Frex said. I personally think it's probably something similar to that settling bug mentioned...symptoms look exactly like that..
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Sorry to divert the conversation from Bode Plotting, but is anyone else annoyed by the "Sequence" a.k.a segmented memory mode?
If one configures it to capture X amount of frames, and then receive X+1 frames, it just wipes out the previous memory and starts from scratch.
I would expect it to either stop at X frames and go into History mode, or just use a circular buffer. Not wipe out ALL the old frames.
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Sorry to divert the conversation from Bode Plotting, but is anyone else annoyed by the "Sequence" a.k.a segmented memory mode?
If one configures it to capture X amount of frames, and then receive X+1 frames, it just wipes out the previous memory and starts from scratch.
I would expect it to either stop at X frames and go into History mode, or just use a circular buffer. Not wipe out ALL the old frames.
It should stop after acquiring X frames.
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Sorry to divert the conversation from Bode Plotting, but is anyone else annoyed by the "Sequence" a.k.a segmented memory mode?
If one configures it to capture X amount of frames, and then receive X+1 frames, it just wipes out the previous memory and starts from scratch.
I would expect it to either stop at X frames and go into History mode, or just use a circular buffer. Not wipe out ALL the old frames.
It should stop after acquiring X frames.
That's what I was expecting too, but it doesn't:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDMurxAbNcI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDMurxAbNcI)
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They've never done a good job at frames/segments... :--
I just make it work and dump the data before hitting it again
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They've never done a good job at frames/segments... :--
I just make it work and dump the data before hitting it again
Yeah, doesn't look like this is specific to a model. I see same behavior on the SDS1000X-E too.
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Sorry to divert the conversation from Bode Plotting, but is anyone else annoyed by the "Sequence" a.k.a segmented memory mode?
If one configures it to capture X amount of frames, and then receive X+1 frames, it just wipes out the previous memory and starts from scratch.
I would expect it to either stop at X frames and go into History mode, or just use a circular buffer. Not wipe out ALL the old frames.
It should stop after acquiring X frames.
That's what I was expecting too, but it doesn't:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDMurxAbNcI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDMurxAbNcI)
What happens if you press single instead of run?
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Sorry to divert the conversation from Bode Plotting, but is anyone else annoyed by the "Sequence" a.k.a segmented memory mode?
If one configures it to capture X amount of frames, and then receive X+1 frames, it just wipes out the previous memory and starts from scratch.
I would expect it to either stop at X frames and go into History mode, or just use a circular buffer. Not wipe out ALL the old frames.
It should stop after acquiring X frames.
That's what I was expecting too, but it doesn't:
What happens if you press single instead of run?
Works exactly as expected :clap:
I am too stupid to be allowed to operate these instruments :palm:
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I found the culprit for my unit at least on the bode issue
Auto channel gain
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Nice. So it's not the settling time of the AWG, it's the settling time of the input switching between ranges.
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Nice. So it's not the settling time of the AWG, it's the settling time of the input switching between ranges.
I mentioned this some time ago, but was told that Frex tried in hold mode and also got error...
So what is right?
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Nice. So it's not the settling time of the AWG, it's the settling time of the input switching between ranges.
I mentioned this some time ago, but was told that Frex tried in hold mode and also got error...
So what is right?
Frex should be able to tell. I might have misunderstood what he said.
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If you want to unlock 5000X to 1 GHz you need to buy 500MHz ver.
Maybe not anymore... ;) Yet to confirm.
That would be VERY nice.. >:D
Indeed. More or less the only thing stopping me from ordering the SDS5034X is that it can't be upgraded to 1GHz. There are some hints (spec wise) that the frontend in the 500MHz model is different though, so even if the SW could be tricked into believing it's the 500MHz model that can be upgraded to 1GHz, I have some reservations that it will reach the full bandwidth. Still.
I'll just leave this picture here...
What pulse gen you used?
Sorry to disappoint you, but if you are using pulse generator that is faster than 200 ps risetime, this proves that your 350MHz version doesn' have same front end as 1GHz version.
Let me explain. Siglent made 1st version of 1GHz front end (that's the one you have) but it wasn't as good as they wanted it to be. To their credit, they made ver 2 with improved front end (with better bandwidth, but more importantly better linearity and phase across the range). That one should have 400ps risetime..
Dont get me wrong. What you have is one fantastic 750-800 MHz scope... Since you paid for 350 MHz you are winner anyway.
But real 1 GHz version (and officially upgradeable 500 MHz one upgraded to 1GHZ) are even better in upper end.
On the other hand, your should have better bandwidth at 1 mv/div..
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Looks like Bodnar 40ps. Still, 750MHz doesn't sound so bad to me.
Anyway: does the 1000M or MAXjust work or is additional trickery needed?
Besides: how would this look like with just the 500M option?
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Looks like Bodnar 40ps.
It IS the Bodnar, I got it too and know the PCB look.
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We´re still talking about the sds2000X+ ?
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We´re still talking about the sds2000X+ ?
They went on a tangent about the 5k series
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We´re still talking about the sds2000X+ ?
They went on a tangent about the 5k series
Sooory, I didn't notice the title... Just answered...
Yes that should be continued in sds5000X topic..
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Nice. So it's not the settling time of the AWG, it's the settling time of the input switching between ranges.
I mentioned this some time ago, but was told that Frex tried in hold mode and also got error...
So what is right?
Frex should be able to tell. I might have misunderstood what he said.
Hello,
I had tested Normal and Vary Level sweep type, but not Auto/Hold Gain . I will try this also this weekend.
Note that even if it's ok without the auto gain, that stay a bug that need to be solved !
Frex
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Hello,
I had tested Normal and Vary Level sweep type, but not Auto/Hold Gain . I will try this also this weekend.
Note that even if it's ok without the auto gain, that stay a bug that need to be solved !
Frex
Listen for the relay click.. thats the dead give away
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Had a short test with external AWG (SDG6000X via USB).
No glitches, even with Auto Gain.
Ran some more tests, 1 out of 12 passes showed 3 glitches.
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Your original post definitely made me think you just didn't run long enough so glad you tried a little longer.
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Nice. So it's not the settling time of the AWG, it's the settling time of the input switching between ranges.
I mentioned this some time ago, but was told that Frex tried in hold mode and also got error...
So what is right?
Frex should be able to tell. I might have misunderstood what he said.
Hello,
I had tested Normal and Vary Level sweep type, but not Auto/Hold Gain . I will try this also this weekend.
Note that even if it's ok without the auto gain, that stay a bug that need to be solved !
Frex
Without the auto gain, dynamic range will be reduced by quite some amount.
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Hi!
I'm sorry to have to change again the discussion, but I have very brief question for experienced and knowledgeable members. I bought SDS2104X Plus from Welectron and am waiting for it to arrive (delayed by the known virus). Of course, 100 MHz BW is rather good and enough in many cases for an average hobbyist as I am, but sometimes somebody wants something more. So, I decided to upgrade the BW to 200 MHz in the future. Batronix promotes this option for only €1500 :-DD as “hardware upgrade”. Is there really “hardware” difference between these two models?:-/O I mean SDS2104 and SDS2204.
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Hi!
I'm sorry to have to change again the discussion, but I have very brief question for experienced and knowledgeable members. I bought SDS2104X Plus from Welectron and am waiting for it to arrive (delayed by the known virus). Of course, 100 MHz BW is rather good and enough in many cases for an average hobbyist as I am, but sometimes somebody wants something more. So, I decided to upgrade the BW to 200 MHz in the future. Batronix promotes this option for only €1500 :-DD as “hardware upgrade”. Is there really “hardware” difference between these two models?:-/O I mean SDS2104 and SDS2204.
No difference and the 100 MHz model has already been found to have ~185 MHz -3dB point so rightly is shipped with 200 MHz probes.
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Thank you. Your answer is brief and encouraging.
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New firmware version for SDS2000X Plus 1.3.5R5 is ready. Coincidentally, my oscilloscope came to me today. Obviously I won't be able to sleep tonight. ;D
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Is there a good practice to calculate the effective waveform updates per second on the Siglent scopes? I cannot get anything near the 120,000wfm/s claimed by Siglent marketing.
I tested the minimum timebase, dot mode. Reference trace in orange is without measurements, yellow trace is with 2-3 basic measurements. With no measurement there is a 3ms dead time between triggers, with measurement active the dead time increases to 13ms. I did not capture the frequency but it was something like 1KHz...
[attachimg=1]
Please ignore the wrong scale due to having the probe in 10:1 and using a BNC to BNC cable.
On Keysight 1000X, you just put minimum timebase and you get the published 200,000wfm/s
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New firmware for SDS2000X Plus models
Version V1.3.5R5
29.6 MB
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Oscilloscope/SDS2000X_Plus_1.3.5R5_EN.zip
Release notes
1. Supported to hide analog traces
2. Added function expression information to the math box
3. Optimized AWG DC output accuracy at +/-3V
4. Frequency counter supported to count serial trigger events
5. Fixed several bugs
a) Incorrect cursor horizontal label for FFT traces
b) 2-channel 100MHz model cannot be upgraded to 350MHz
c) FRFR measure invalid from Roll to Stop
d) Unexpected behaviors when probe attenuation factor is not 1x
e) Some bugs in PA
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Good news, can´t await to test it.
Thank god, this (working) week is short... ;D
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I could not find averaging in the acquisition menu. In this scope, it seems to be a math function. Does it mean that you can only average 2 traces out of 4, as math has capacity for only 2 functions?
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Therefore I suggest to enhanced the math traces up to four...Shouldn´t be a big problem to realize.
(See my signature, bugs and wishlist)
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Good news, can´t await to test it.
Test it real good as the release notes are missing stuff I've reported weeks and weeks ago. :horse:
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Hi,
A few minutes ago I´ve done the upgrade.
Hide channel - Works... :-+
Box Information for math - Works.. :-+
Not so nice, part 1:
In the channelbox before upgrade "DC1M", "DC50", "AC1M" "AC50" were displayed, when you took the settings to this.
Now the "C" get lost, it will displaying "D1M" instead of "DC1M" and so on.
I think it's because now there´s an H for Hidden displaying when you activate this function - Maybe it could be corrected, but it´s not really worrying me.
Not so nice, part two:
For hiding the channel, you must go into the channel menu, scrolling down to the last - From lecroy models I´m used to use the channel button for this ( pressing once, channel hides).
Edit: After doing the fw upgrade, I still got all options and full bandwith, so no worries.
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I did the upgrade yesterday as well. All options preserved. Being able to hide the analog channel is nice.
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I did mine as well, worked fine
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Homemade SPL2016 equivalent probe. Tested 5V TTL logic, 3.3V, negative CAN signal as generated by Keysight 1000X scope training signal
[attachimg=10]
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
[attachimg=7]
[attachimg=8]
[attachimg=9]
[attachimg=10]
PM me if you are interested in buying one
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Hello TK,
It's interesting, as I don't have bought the Logic probe yet that is really overpriced.
So, does your adapter include active/passive parts ?
Have you tested the upper frequency limit where it still work ?
Picture seem to show that it's only an adapter between the PCI-E connector
and an double row 2.54mm header connector, it is that ?
Regards.
Frex
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Hello TK,
It's interesting, as I don't have bought the Logic probe yet that is really overpriced.
So, does your adapter include active/passive parts ?
Have you tested the upper frequency limit where it still work ?
Picture seem to show that it's only an adapter between the PCI-E connector
and an double row 2.54mm header connector, it is that ?
Regards.
Frex
The adapter is only a PCB. The passive matching components are in the original HP / Agilent POD I am using, paired with the original HP woven ribbon cable that was used by HP in their logic analyzer product line. I am selling the whole cable set, fully assembled as shown in one of the pictures (PCB adapter, original HP woven cable, original HP/Agilent data POD).
I tested 45MHz SPI clock signal. I also generated a 100MHz square signal and the signal is not 50% duty square signal, as the sample rate for digital input is 500MSa/s, I estimate the reliable capture speed is around 60MHz - 80MHz.
It works with serial decoding. It also works with negative threshold... I tested a negative CAN signal generated by my KS scope training signal and set the threshold to around -1.5V on the Siglent and it captures and decodes perfectly.
It lacks the casing, so I made a horizontal piece made with PCB and that holds the vertical board in place, but the PCB assembly does not latch to the Siglent scope case.
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Ok, thanks for the explanation. That seems fine.
What would be the price for this complete kit ?
It is a used or new HP/Agilent digital probe pod ?
Regards
Frex
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Ok, thanks for the explanation. That seems fine.
What would be the price for this complete kit ?
It is a used or new HP/Agilent digital probe pod ?
Regards
Frex
They are vintage used genuine HP/Agilent parts. In the picture I am showing a POD that is not in a very good shape, for my own use. The ones I sell are in better condition. I made minor changes to the PCB and I am waiting for the new ones to arrive... I expect to ship them end of next week or the week after. I've been selling a similar cable (different adapter) assembly for Agilent 54622D and Agilent / Keysight MSOX (2000X-4000X) users for many many years. I think the price is reasonable, send me a PM.
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Ok, thanks for the explanation. That seems fine.
What would be the price for this complete kit ?
It is a used or new HP/Agilent digital probe pod ?
Regards
Frex
They are vintage used genuine HP/Agilent parts. In the picture I am showing a POD that is not in a very good shape, for my own use. The ones I sell are in better condition. I made minor changes to the PCB and I am waiting for the new ones to arrive... I expect to ship them end of next week or the week after. I've been selling a similar cable (different adapter) assembly for Agilent 54622D and Agilent / Keysight MSOX (2000X-4000X) users for many many years. I think the price is reasonable, send me a PM.
Way cheaper than the siglent probes, 350 is woof... i did get the boobie prize at least and the mini grabbers it came with are high quality
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Hello :)
Sorry if the question has already been asked, but the most interesting thing in this video is the keyboard : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gl1O8YHUso (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gl1O8YHUso)
Do you know the part reference ?
It would do very nice on my desk ;D
Thank you !
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Could be a Ducky (https://www.duckychannel.com.tw/en/Ducky-Mecha-Mini).
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Hello :)
Sorry if the question has already been asked, but the most interesting thing in this video is the keyboard
Do you know the part reference ?
It would do very nice on my desk ;D
Thank you !
It's just a compact keyboard with some replacement color keys
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=28 (https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=28)
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Could be a Ducky (https://www.duckychannel.com.tw/en/Ducky-Mecha-Mini).
Doubt it.. whoever probly just grabbed one off a rack and a handful of color keys if its anywhere near shenzhen; mass produced and all look the same
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Hi. After the upgrade, the display in the web interface on the PC no longer works. is just a white window. Can you confirm that? Is it possible to downgrade?
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Hi. After the upgrade, the display in the web interface on the PC no longer works. is just a white window. Can you confirm that? Is it possible to downgrade?
mine works, is it still on the same ip address?
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Yes, it's at the same address. I get to the whole web server, just the place of the window where the wave should be visible is a white window.
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Hi. After the upgrade, the display in the web interface on the PC no longer works. is just a white window. Can you confirm that?
What PC OS and browser are you using ?
Maybe install the new FW again for a double check.
Is it possible to downgrade?
Should be no problem, here's the release FW:
https://www.siglenteu.com/download/8989/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/download/8989/)
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Hi. After the upgrade, the display in the web interface on the PC no longer works. is just a white window. Can you confirm that? Is it possible to downgrade?
Still works here since the update.
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I updated via the web interface. Now I have tried it again via the web interface and it already works. To be sure, I recorded it on flash memory if it didn't work again. Probably the first update was not 100% successful, but otherwise everything seemed to work in the Oscilloscope. So thanks for the advice, the second attempt at update fixed it.
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The siglent deskew fixture makes me so curious, that now I´ve ordered one:
DF2001A (https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/df2001a/)
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The siglent deskew fixture makes me so curious, that now I´ve ordered one:
DF2001A (https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/df2001a/)
That thing is on my short list, let me know what you think of it.. when is it coming in?
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Yesterday purchased, I think in the forthcoming week.
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Yesterday purchased, I think in the forthcoming week.
I'm hoping for nice hires photo of the board.. :) 250€ is too much for my blood... It's a oscillator, mosfet, two resistors, and a pcb trace.
I was thinking also about a version with breakable loop for wired current sensors...
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Yesterday purchased, I think in the forthcoming week.
I'm hoping for nice hires photo of the board.. :) 250€ is too much for my blood... It's a oscillator, mosfet, two resistors, and a pcb trace.
I was thinking also about a version with breakable loop for wired current sensors...
Great minds think alike ;)
https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/DF2001A.jpg (https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/DF2001A.jpg)
Not the best photo but will get most of the board, whats really needed is a bom and its pretty evident its just a 2 layer board.. so just a front and back photo and then some with light going through to confirm
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Yesterday purchased, I think in the forthcoming week.
I'm hoping for nice hires photo of the board.. :) 250€ is too much for my blood... It's a oscillator, mosfet, two resistors, and a pcb trace.
I was thinking also about a version with breakable loop for wired current sensors...
Great minds think alike ;)
https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/DF2001A.jpg (https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/DF2001A.jpg)
Not the best photo but will get most of the board, whats really needed is a bom and its pretty evident its just a 2 layer board.. so just a front and back photo and then some with light going through to confirm
Thanks for that, I did find that one though, was hoping for a bit more detail..
It is 4 layer, for 8 turns on high current side..
I know exactly how switching side should look like, just wanted to look at loops in more detail, and see what they use for driving mosfets.
As I said, I'm interested in version that has breakable loop, for shunt and LEM and Sensitec type sensors that are not contactless.
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I'm hoping for nice hires photo of the board.. :)
Sure, sure, I´ll do... ;)
250€ is too much for my blood... It's a oscillator, mosfet, two resistors, and a pcb trace.
Yes, it´s the same like the logic probes - But my curiosity was bigger then and so I "must" do it.
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"An incredible powerful scope" :
Teardown by Dave (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-hack/msg3086367/#msg3086367)
And yes, I also want a review.... 8)
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I did a review and tear down on the SDS2104X Plus a couple of months ago.
#696 NEW Siglent SDS2104X Plus Touchscreen Oscilloscope Unboxing and First Look! - Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHH4H8Q7IWg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHH4H8Q7IWg)
#699 NEW Siglent SDS2104X Plus Oscilloscope - Review and Teardown
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_cVpH7GLtI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_cVpH7GLtI)
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I just opened mine up as well and I think its safe to say they are all the same between the two of our 100s and Dave's 350 model
500Mhz+ frontends for everyone, its just a marketing stunt
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And so we got a 500Mhz 4 ch scope for….less money, incredible less money. 8)
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And so we got a 500Mhz 4 ch scope for….less money, incredible less money. 8)
It's not 500MHz on the 4 channels IIRC?
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And so we got a 500Mhz 4 ch scope for….less money, incredible less money. 8)
It's not 500MHz on the 4 channels IIRC?
It is but breaks Nyquist without a single channel on each ADC.
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Sry, I forgot this fact...
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Not a big deal.
This does not detract from the fact that it is a good scope.
I fight every day with myself, several times a day, to NOT buy one ;D
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Do it, you won´t regret it...come to our side, we got cookies... ;D
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I fight every day with myself, several times a day, to NOT buy one ;D
STAY AWAY FROM THE LIGHT!!!
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Not a big deal.
This does not detract from the fact that it is a good scope.
I fight every day with myself, several times a day, to NOT buy one ;D
Let Dave have time to do a careful review and get to know this scope as this is no toy and takes a while to learn its feature set and capabilities.
Much like the SDS5kX it is more productive to use with a mouse which really supplements the touch and physical controls.
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Not a big deal.
This does not detract from the fact that it is a good scope.
I fight every day with myself, several times a day, to NOT buy one ;D
Let Dave have time to do a careful review and get to know this scope as this is no toy and takes a while to learn its feature set and capabilities.
Much like the SDS5kX it is more productive to use with a mouse which really supplements the touch and physical controls.
Man.. that mouse action with that new vertical menu combined with touch support! And you can use the web portal JUST AS it where on the scope itself!
I feel like everything is in exactly the right place that just flows or close enough its found near by.. its a bounty of usefulness
btw.. I already used it to spy on the uart line of my ssa3k+ to confirm it was still alive after tv84 and I bricked it by running its drive space to 0 lol
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I need a 2nd scope but I already have a Rigol MSO7000.
Im divided between keeping my Rigol for home and breaking the bank for a higher end, more polished scope like a R&S RTM3000/4000 or Lecroy 4024HD. Or be reasonable and buy myself this SDS2000X Plus for home.
I'm in no rush so I have time to think.
I don't have the money for a full option R&S or Lecroy....data to take into account >:D
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Do it, you won´t regret it...come to our side, we got cookies... ;D
Yes come!! Major TEA party! Haha
But yes only one channel per pair so you end up these pairs at 500Mhz
1+3
1+4
2+3
2+4
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Not a big deal.
This does not detract from the fact that it is a good scope.
I fight every day with myself, several times a day, to NOT buy one ;D
Let Dave have time to do a careful review and get to know this scope as this is no toy and takes a while to learn its feature set and capabilities.
Much like the SDS5kX it is more productive to use with a mouse which really supplements the touch and physical controls.
Man.. that mouse action with that new vertical menu combined with touch support! And you can use the web portal JUST AS it where on the scope itself!
I feel like everything is in exactly the right place that just flows or close enough its found near by.. its a bounty of usefulness
:)
They support USB keyboards too however I've not felt the need to go there as the virtual Querty keyboard is quite sufficient for normal use.
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I need a 2nd scope but I already have a Rigol MSO7000.
Im divided between keeping my Rigol for home and breaking the bank for a higher end, more polished scope like a R&S RTM3000/4000 or Lecroy 4024HD. Or be reasonable and buy myself this SDS2000X Plus for home.
Few people need to shell out a lot of coin for a high end scope for home. Use the money for something else, or save it.
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I need a 2nd scope but I already have a Rigol MSO7000.
Im divided between keeping my Rigol for home and breaking the bank for a higher end, more polished scope like a R&S RTM3000/4000 or Lecroy 4024HD. Or be reasonable and buy myself this SDS2000X Plus for home.
I'm in no rush so I have time to think.
I don't have the money for a full option R&S or Lecroy....data to take into account >:D
Maybe it's better to wait for Sighound's MXR and then you'll have another one to think about! :-DD
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Not a big deal.
This does not detract from the fact that it is a good scope.
I fight every day with myself, several times a day, to NOT buy one ;D
Let Dave have time to do a careful review and get to know this scope as this is no toy and takes a while to learn its feature set and capabilities.
Much like the SDS5kX it is more productive to use with a mouse which really supplements the touch and physical controls.
I don't plan on a full review, already did one for the 5000X and the operation is going to be near identical. I also presume it would be common platform, so any issues found on one would get fixed on the other.
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I just opened mine up as well and I think its safe to say they are all the same between the two of our 100s and Dave's 350 model
500Mhz+ frontends for everyone, its just a marketing stunt
Thanks for the confirmation.
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I need a 2nd scope but I already have a Rigol MSO7000.
Im divided between keeping my Rigol for home and breaking the bank for a higher end, more polished scope like a R&S RTM3000/4000 or Lecroy 4024HD. Or be reasonable and buy myself this SDS2000X Plus for home.
Few people need to shell out a lot of coin for a high end scope for home. Use the money for something else, or save it.
This must be underlined…
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I need a 2nd scope but I already have a Rigol MSO7000.
Im divided between keeping my Rigol for home and breaking the bank for a higher end, more polished scope like a R&S RTM3000/4000 or Lecroy 4024HD. Or be reasonable and buy myself this SDS2000X Plus for home.
Few people need to shell out a lot of coin for a high end scope for home. Use the money for something else, or save it.
From the man with the most scopes in his lab, in the world ;D
An oscilloscope at home doesn't necessarily mean it's for hobby use.
I have young children, so I am sometimes stucked at home for several days. It's nice to have this flexibility and to be able to continue working at home in good conditions.
Im sure the SDS2000X Plus will fit my needs at home, no problem.
But I already had remarks when I wrote documentation with "Rigol" screenshots.
I know it sounds stupid but I have clients who got stuck in the 2000s and only trust big brands.
They think Rigol is Chinese shit and don't even know the Siglent brand.
They have dedicated suppliers who don't represent these low cost brands so they only know the big brands solutions and to be honest, I'm not sure that they look at something other than Tektronix when they have to buy a scope.
Hence the idea of maybe breaking the bank and buying an scope for my lab and keep the one I have for home.
If they are happy with R&S screenshots and they give me more work to do, everyone is happy 8)
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But I already had remarks when I wrote documentation with "Rigol" screenshots.
*snip*
Hence the idea of maybe breaking the bank and buying an scope for my lab and keep the one I have for home.
Vastly cheaper to use photoshop ;)
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500MHz top vs 100MHz bottom
[attachimg=2]
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I need a 2nd scope but I already have a Rigol MSO7000.
Im divided between keeping my Rigol for home and breaking the bank for a higher end, more polished scope like a R&S RTM3000/4000 or Lecroy 4024HD. Or be reasonable and buy myself this SDS2000X Plus for home.
I'm in no rush so I have time to think.
I don't have the money for a full option R&S or Lecroy....data to take into account >:D
Maybe it's better to wait for Sighound's MXR and then you'll have another one to think about! :-DD
We don't play in the same league him and me ;D
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But I already had remarks when I wrote documentation with "Rigol" screenshots.
*snip*
Hence the idea of maybe breaking the bank and buying an scope for my lab and keep the one I have for home.
Vastly cheaper to use photoshop ;)
Maybe it would be more credible to buy the Siglent and change the logo for a Lecroy during a telnet session .
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Not a big deal.
This does not detract from the fact that it is a good scope.
I fight every day with myself, several times a day, to NOT buy one ;D
Let Dave have time to do a careful review and get to know this scope as this is no toy and takes a while to learn its feature set and capabilities.
Much like the SDS5kX it is more productive to use with a mouse which really supplements the touch and physical controls.
I don't plan on a full review, already did one for the 5000X and the operation is going to be near identical. I also presume it would be common platform, so any issues found on one would get fixed on the other.
Pop them each alongside each other and compare the physical UI differences of which there are a few.
Some of the features are better grouped in SDS2kX Plus front panel layout. Little thing I know and it's a shame SDS5kX doesn't reflex the same more thoughtful layout.
Hope to see you use it some more in future videos.
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I need a 2nd scope but I already have a Rigol MSO7000.
Im divided between keeping my Rigol for home and breaking the bank for a higher end, more polished scope like a R&S RTM3000/4000 or Lecroy 4024HD. Or be reasonable and buy myself this SDS2000X Plus for home.
Few people need to shell out a lot of coin for a high end scope for home. Use the money for something else, or save it.
From the man with the most scopes in his lab, in the world ;D
An oscilloscope at home doesn't necessarily mean it's for hobby use.
I have young children, so I am sometimes stucked at home for several days. It's nice to have this flexibility and to be able to continue working at home in good conditions.
Im sure the SDS2000X Plus will fit my needs at home, no problem.
But I already had remarks when I wrote documentation with "Rigol" screenshots.
I know it sounds stupid but I have clients who got stuck in the 2000s and only trust big brands.
They think Rigol is Chinese shit and don't even know the Siglent brand.
They have dedicated suppliers who don't represent these low cost brands so they only know the big brands solutions and to be honest, I'm not sure that they look at something other than Tektronix when they have to buy a scope.
Hence the idea of maybe breaking the bank and buying an scope for my lab and keep the one I have for home.
If they are happy with R&S screenshots and they give me more work to do, everyone is happy 8)
If you want nice docs, LeCroys LabNotebook is way to go... But I buy fancy equipment to impress customers only if THEY will pay for it (one way or another).
For documentation I mostly use Picoscope because it just easier, unless it's something it can't do..
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For documentation I mostly use Picoscope because it just easier, unless it's something it can't do..
How is it easier, just because it's already connected to a PC to save screenshots to ?
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For documentation I mostly use Picoscope because it just easier, unless it's something it can't do..
How is it easier, just because it's already connected to a PC to save screenshots to ?
That and many ways to save.. You can put screenshot of just scope window or full window to clipboard. You can save from file menu as Pico data (to open later by software and do anything like at capture time), as CSV, or as image, and you can chose to do all that for only current buffer or all buffers from history. When saving as image you can take history buffers and make animated GIF form history buffers.. You can also simply print to PDF etc etc.
It is simply very handy and quick to use...
Also, since it is software decode, you can capture something, save it, open it next day and then play with math, decodes .... And then make documentation form that. And a week after, you remember something, open it again, and grab another view and add it to documentation..
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For documentation I mostly use Picoscope because it just easier, unless it's something it can't do..
How is it easier, just because it's already connected to a PC to save screenshots to ?
That and many ways to save.. You can put screenshot of just scope window or full window to clipboard. You can save from file menu as Pico data (to open later by software and do anything like at capture time), as CSV, or as image, and you can chose to do all that for only current buffer or all buffers from history. When saving as image you can take history buffers and make animated GIF form history buffers.. You can also simply print to PDF etc etc.
It is simply very handy and quick to use...
Also, since it is software decode, you can capture something, save it, open it next day and then play with math, decodes .... And then make documentation form that. And a week after, you remember something, open it again, and grab another view and add it to documentation..
Ok I see, much of that can be done with the 2kX Plus also when connected via LAN to the webrowser and even the little 7" display X-E's. Reimporting is more difficult and can really only be Reference files which of course you can still measure etc.
So in practice we would maybe move from the scope controls to the PC and work the scope with a mouse just like the Pico I presume.
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Also, since it is software decode, you can capture something, save it, open it next day and then play with math, decodes .... And then make documentation form that. And a week after, you remember something, open it again, and grab another view and add it to documentation..
This saving/restoring of the whole system state (i.e. settings and full data) is a feature that LeCroy scopes had for at least a decade or so and that is unfortunately absent from any other (standalone) brand (AFAIK). It's a bit of a letdown that Siglent doesn't seem to intend to offer something like that. Same is true for other unique LeCroy things like WaveScan and LabView, but there I could at least imagine that directly copying the idea wouldn't make LeCroy happy. Saving/restoring of the state+data is such a basic concept though that it's hard to imagine this could be protected anyhow.
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Ok I see, much of that can be done with the 2kX Plus also when connected via LAN to the webrowser and even the little 7" display X-E's. Reimporting is more difficult and can really only be Reference files which of course you can still measure etc.
So in practice we would maybe move from the scope controls to the PC and work the scope with a mouse just like the Pico I presume.
Yes, you can do some of the things remotely, I use this with my Keysight (it also has VNC remote control, and web control page that makes thing easier) but it is very limited compared to scope App being real windows app running on your real PC. For instance, I'm confused why scopes with Ethernet interfaces and Linux on it don't allow me to map network drives (NFS or Samba, I don't care), so I can stop using stupid USB keys for captures, masks or captures. For instance, save on mask failure... Some GW Instek and Tek scopes can do it, but none of embeded ones can.. Only windows based ones..
I'm looking at you Keysight too, really on 3000T/4000/6000 series that should be a built in feature. It would be much more useful than fully featured TCP/IP Print server that is so 80-is.
Nobody prints to printer directly..
Also, since it is software decode, you can capture something, save it, open it next day and then play with math, decodes .... And then make documentation form that. And a week after, you remember something, open it again, and grab another view and add it to documentation..
This saving/restoring of the whole system state (i.e. settings and full data) is a feature that LeCroy scopes had for at least a decade or so and that is unfortunately absent from any other (standalone) brand (AFAIK). It's a bit of a letdown that Siglent doesn't seem to intend to offer something like that. Same is true for other unique LeCroy things like WaveScan and LabView, but there I could at least imagine that directly copying the idea wouldn't make LeCroy happy. Saving/restoring of the state+data is such a basic concept though that it's hard to imagine this could be protected anyhow.
Agree. Just to mention it, higher end R&S scopes have it too, together with fancy previews and such.
I bought Pico because it is cheapest way to get many high end usability and analytical features (DeepMeasure, unlimited decodes, unlimited aribitrary math etc etc)...
Mind you, there are many things about it that I don't like, but it is very powerfull tool, if you take time to learn how to use it.
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I bought Pico because it is cheapest way to get many high end usability and analytical features (DeepMeasure, unlimited decodes, unlimited aribitrary math etc etc)...
Somewhat offtopic, but they don't really appeal to me. The models with acceptable bandwidth and sample rate seem very expensive for what they are. E.g. the 300MHz model 6403E that costs 4920€ including VAT obviously just has one ADC which is shared between the four channels. So 5GSa/s are misleading as are 1GSa memory. Besides, the frontends don't seem to be the best. Like even their highest end model only offers 2mV/div to 4V/div. Meh.
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For documentation I mostly use Picoscope because it just easier, unless it's something it can't do..
How is it easier, just because it's already connected to a PC to save screenshots to ?
That and many ways to save.. You can put screenshot of just scope window or full window to clipboard. You can save from file menu as Pico data (to open later by software and do anything like at capture time), as CSV, or as image, and you can chose to do all that for only current buffer or all buffers from history. When saving as image you can take history buffers and make animated GIF form history buffers.. You can also simply print to PDF etc etc.
It is simply very handy and quick to use...
Also, since it is software decode, you can capture something, save it, open it next day and then play with math, decodes .... And then make documentation form that. And a week after, you remember something, open it again, and grab another view and add it to documentation..
Ok I see, much of that can be done with the 2kX Plus also when connected via LAN to the webrowser and even the little 7" display X-E's. Reimporting is more difficult and can really only be Reference files which of course you can still measure etc.
So in practice we would maybe move from the scope controls to the PC and work the scope with a mouse just like the Pico I presume.
I do this now ;)
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Labnote book is rather good I have mentioned before that other brands should have their own versions.
I suspect with Siglent that is one section of LeCroy's IP that isn't going anywhere
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Ok I see, much of that can be done with the 2kX Plus also when connected via LAN to the webrowser and even the little 7" display X-E's. Reimporting is more difficult and can really only be Reference files which of course you can still measure etc.
So in practice we would maybe move from the scope controls to the PC and work the scope with a mouse just like the Pico I presume.
Yes, you can do some of the things remotely, I use this with my Keysight (it also has VNC remote control, and web control page that makes thing easier) but it is very limited compared to scope App being real windows app running on your real PC. For instance, I'm confused why scopes with Ethernet interfaces and Linux on it don't allow me to map network drives (NFS or Samba, I don't care), so I can stop using stupid USB keys for captures, masks or captures. For instance, save on mask failure... Some GW Instek and Tek scopes can do it, but none of embeded ones can.. Only windows based ones..
I'm looking at you Keysight too, really on 3000T/4000/6000 series that should be a built in feature. It would be much more useful than fully featured TCP/IP Print server that is so 80-is.
Nobody prints to printer directly..
Also, since it is software decode, you can capture something, save it, open it next day and then play with math, decodes .... And then make documentation form that. And a week after, you remember something, open it again, and grab another view and add it to documentation..
This saving/restoring of the whole system state (i.e. settings and full data) is a feature that LeCroy scopes had for at least a decade or so and that is unfortunately absent from any other (standalone) brand (AFAIK). It's a bit of a letdown that Siglent doesn't seem to intend to offer something like that. Same is true for other unique LeCroy things like WaveScan and LabView, but there I could at least imagine that directly copying the idea wouldn't make LeCroy happy. Saving/restoring of the state+data is such a basic concept though that it's hard to imagine this could be protected anyhow.
Agree. Just to mention it, higher end R&S scopes have it too, together with fancy previews and such.
I bought Pico because it is cheapest way to get many high end usability and analytical features (DeepMeasure, unlimited decodes, unlimited aribitrary math etc etc)...
Mind you, there are many things about it that I don't like, but it is very powerfull tool, if you take time to learn how to use it.
This is actually something im looking at along with adding ssh to this and the ssa3k+ to make them more useful and usable with less fooling around
Siglent runs linux.. no reason they couldnt put these in it themselves if they wanted
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I bought Pico because it is cheapest way to get many high end usability and analytical features (DeepMeasure, unlimited decodes, unlimited aribitrary math etc etc)...
Somewhat offtopic, but they don't really appeal to me. The models with acceptable bandwidth and sample rate seem very expensive for what they are. E.g. the 300MHz model 6403E that costs 4920€ including VAT obviously just has one ADC which is shared between the four channels. So 5GSa/s are misleading as are 1GSa memory. Besides, the frontends don't seem to be the best. Like even their highest end model only offers 2mV/div to 4V/div. Meh.
Most of the stuff I do is not very fast. I have 1GHz Keysight for better bandwidth. I have 3406D that has best analog sensitivity of 4mv/div and 4262 that has 2mv/div but it's 16 bit, so you can see things buried well down in micro-volts... Also noise of their front end is very respectable...
Keysight 3000T series also have maximum analog sensitivity of 4mv/div, and nobody calls it bad..
Fact is, I don't do stuff that would need 500uV/div at 1GHz bandwidth. That is moment I fire up SA.....
But to get back on topic. I really miss network drive mapping on all embedded (non windows ones) scopes. Also, LeCroy like LabView is not necessary, simpler facility that can dump Screen Dump and (optionally) measurement setup page at a press to a network drive, in some ODF format (easier to render than PDF I presume) or even in PNG+text file with same name would. Or simple stupid html.
One thing that is mostly overseen is dumping instrument settings together with screen capture. On screen you can see some info but it's not complete and not easy to read.
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Keysight 3000T series also have maximum analog sensitivity of 4mv/div, and nobody calls it bad..
But it isn't limited to 4V/div in the other direction. I find that more concerning than the lack of anything below 2mv/div.
Also, LeCroy like LabView is not necessary, simpler facility that can dump Screen Dump and (optionally) measurement setup page at a press to a network drive, in some ODF format (easier to render than PDF I presume) or even in PNG+text file with same name would. Or simple stupid html.
It's LabNotebook btw. but I mixed it up with LabView, so mea culpa. Anyway, the beauty of LabNotebook is not that you can draw circles etc. but that a LabNotebook entry stores the data and settings (in addition to annotations). A screenshot may not be enough to further look into an issue at a later time.
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It's LabNotebook btw. but I mixed it up with LabView, so mea culpa. Anyway, the beauty of LabNotebook is not that you can draw circles etc. but that a LabNotebook entry stores the data and settings (in addition to annotations). A screenshot may not be enough to further look into an issue at a later time.
Yeah I know :palm: I wrote it right previously, but was answering so repeated by instinct...
That is exactly what I meant, but even screenshot AND scope settings dumped in a simply formated HTML would be enough most of the time... Automated, screen, settings and data dump is not that complicated, just name them the same (different exetensions, naturally)..
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500MHz top vs 100MHz bottom
For me it looks like the same.
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500MHz top vs 100MHz bottom
For me it looks like the same.
The bottom image is too low quality to see the details. But there is difference in silkscreen. Obviously. At the moment I'm too lazy to disassemble my scope (upgraded ;) SDS2104) to take some good photo of frontend. Sorry. :-\
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The bottom image is too low quality to see the details. But there is difference in silkscreen. Obviously. Now I'm too lazy to disassemble my scope (upgraded ;) SDS2104) to take some good photo of frontend. Sorry. :-\
I did also noticed the different silkscreen, but it don´t worrying me, because it´s only silkscreen.
I´m afraid to loose the warranty, otherwise I would take hires pics from it...
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Nobody have different HW rev on system info?
Maybe the silkscreen explain the differences between 2104X able to upgrade to 350 vs 500MHz
There must be 2104X with the same silkcreen thab the 2354X+
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It's true. The silkscreen is only silkscreen. I just would like to see the capacitors and resistors values and types of chips.
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Nobody have different HW rev on system info?
It seems not.
I was one of the very first buyer, so that could be an explanation why 2504X wouldn´t displayed by mine scope.
But others, who bought their scope very lately after me, report it too.
Maybe the silkscreen explain the differences between 2104X able to upgrade to 350 vs 500MHz
To make it clear, I got also the 500Mhz bw although it´s not displayed in the system info.
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In general, the only need a good calibrated HF generator to check the BW of your scope. It's enough.
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Nobody have different HW rev on system info?
It seems not.
I was one of the very first buyer, so that could be an explanation why 2504X wouldn´t displayed by mine scope.
But others, who bought their scope very lately after me, report it too.
Maybe the silkscreen explain the differences between 2104X able to upgrade to 350 vs 500MHz
To make it clear, I got also the 500Mhz bw although it´s not displayed in the system info.
Confirmed by a sweep test?
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To be honest, no.
Just calculating from the risetime given from the leo bodnar pulsegen and the fact, that the channels of one ADC turning to bandwithlimit (350Mhz), when operate together, refering to the manual.
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To be honest, no.
Just calculating from the risetime given from the leo bodnar pulsegen and the fact, that the channels of one ADC turning to bandwithlimit (350Mhz), when operate together, refering to the manual.
I just wonder if the response is flat ... It makes me think of the first generation sds5034x frontend which don't have the same hardware as the 500 and 1GHz.
I find it odd to have a silkscreen/ test point difference and no HW rev change.
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I have 120MHz gen only, so it's impossible to check how successful was upgrading of my scope. I ordered an cheep HF generator based on ADF4351 VFO. I will experiment with them.
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That's sort of pointless. If you don't know how "flat" the source is you can't verify the scope either.
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I just wonder if the response is flat ... It makes me think of the first generation sds5034x frontend which don't have the same hardware as the 500 and 1GHz.
Check the SDS2kX Plus datasheet. Response is not perfectly flat and it's rare that it might be however the flatness is specified.
Pages 3 and 4 list a graph and the actual spec.
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Something like this should do the trick, no?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/35MHz-4000MHz-RF-Signal-Generator-Signal-Source-ADF4351-VFO-HXY-D6-V1-02-50-ohms/362852575960 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/35MHz-4000MHz-RF-Signal-Generator-Signal-Source-ADF4351-VFO-HXY-D6-V1-02-50-ohms/362852575960)
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I agree completely. As I wrote earlier, it need a calibrated HF generator. But such device is much more expensive than my oscilloscope.
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Something like this should do the trick, no?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/35MHz-4000MHz-RF-Signal-Generator-Signal-Source-ADF4351-VFO-HXY-D6-V1-02-50-ohms/362852575960 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/35MHz-4000MHz-RF-Signal-Generator-Signal-Source-ADF4351-VFO-HXY-D6-V1-02-50-ohms/362852575960)
You right. Something like this. :-DD
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Something like this should do the trick, no?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/35MHz-4000MHz-RF-Signal-Generator-Signal-Source-ADF4351-VFO-HXY-D6-V1-02-50-ohms/362852575960 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/35MHz-4000MHz-RF-Signal-Generator-Signal-Source-ADF4351-VFO-HXY-D6-V1-02-50-ohms/362852575960)
You right. Something like this. :-DD
Not sure if sarcastic or serious... :-//
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I just wonder if the response is flat ... It makes me think of the first generation sds5034x frontend which don't have the same hardware as the 500 and 1GHz.
Check the SDS2kX Plus datasheet. Response is not perfectly flat and it's rare that it might be however the flatness is specified.
Pages 3 and 4 list a graph and the actual spec.
The idea is not to measure absolute front end performance. Im sure Siglent done it right.
The idea is to compare between the scopes which upgrade in 2354 and those in 2504. Maybe there is hidden HW change since the early models?
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Something like this should do the trick, no?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/35MHz-4000MHz-RF-Signal-Generator-Signal-Source-ADF4351-VFO-HXY-D6-V1-02-50-ohms/362852575960 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/35MHz-4000MHz-RF-Signal-Generator-Signal-Source-ADF4351-VFO-HXY-D6-V1-02-50-ohms/362852575960)
You right. Something like this. :-DD
Not sure if sarcastic or serious... :-//
The device is exactly as you noted. The price of this gen is $00000013, that is nothing. Simply an toy.
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Something like this should do the trick, no?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/35MHz-4000MHz-RF-Signal-Generator-Signal-Source-ADF4351-VFO-HXY-D6-V1-02-50-ohms/362852575960 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/35MHz-4000MHz-RF-Signal-Generator-Signal-Source-ADF4351-VFO-HXY-D6-V1-02-50-ohms/362852575960)
You right. Something like this. :-DD
Not sure if sarcastic or serious... :-//
The device is exactly as you noted. The price of this gen is $00000013, that is nothing. Simply an toy.
OK. I thought it would be good enough to measure the bandwidth of the scope.
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Something like this should do the trick, no?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/35MHz-4000MHz-RF-Signal-Generator-Signal-Source-ADF4351-VFO-HXY-D6-V1-02-50-ohms/362852575960 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/35MHz-4000MHz-RF-Signal-Generator-Signal-Source-ADF4351-VFO-HXY-D6-V1-02-50-ohms/362852575960)
You right. Something like this. :-DD
Not sure if sarcastic or serious... :-//
The device is exactly as you noted. The price of this gen is $00000013, that is nothing. Simply an toy.
OK. I thought it would be good enough to measure the bandwidth of the scope.
Thank you. I appreciated your humor.
But for serious measure, I will look for a serious device. Of course.
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I just wonder if the response is flat ... It makes me think of the first generation sds5034x frontend which don't have the same hardware as the 500 and 1GHz.
Check the SDS2kX Plus datasheet. Response is not perfectly flat and it's rare that it might be however the flatness is specified.
Pages 3 and 4 list a graph and the actual spec.
The idea is not to measure absolute front end performance. Im sure Siglent done it right.
The idea is to compare between the scopes which upgrade in 2354 and those in 2504. Maybe there is hidden HW change since the early models?
Not absolutely sure but I don't believe there is.
After not getting the first 5kX front ends perfect I don't see them making that mistake again in a hurry after all why would you wanna have 2 different production boards for a product you're gunna be making for a while.
Doesn't make sense to me.
I used 3 yes 3 sig gens to check the SDS2104X Plus I had as much to my surprise the -3dB point was some 185 MHz.
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Thank you. I appreciated your humor.
But for serious measure, I will look for a serious device. Of course.
Out of curiosity, what's the unit of measurement of "Device Seriousness"? Would 10 MegaSeriousnets do? :-DD
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Thank you. I appreciated your humor.
But for serious measure, I will look for a serious device. Of course.
Out of curiosity, what's the unit of measurement of "Device Seriousness"? Would 10 MegaSeriousnets do? :-DD
I will think about how to name the unit of seriousness. But it will be tomorrow. In the meantime, I will think about sleep. Good night.
Have a nice day.
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Confirmed by a sweep test?
first link, sweep original 2104X+:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2964500/#msg2964500 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2964500/#msg2964500)
second link, sweep with 500Mhz hack (show 2354X+ in the system info):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2965752/#msg2965752 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2965752/#msg2965752)
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Confirmed by a sweep test?
first link, sweep original 2104X:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2964500/#msg2964500 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2964500/#msg2964500)
second link, sweep with 500Mhz hack (show 2354X in the system info):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2965752/#msg2965752 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2965752/#msg2965752)
Very nice thank you.
I don't see how a 2504X could be better.
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Confirmed by a sweep test?
first link, sweep original 2104X:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2964500/#msg2964500 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2964500/#msg2964500)
second link, sweep with 500Mhz hack (show 2354X in the system info):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2965752/#msg2965752 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2965752/#msg2965752)
Very nice thank you.
I don't see how a 2504X could be better.
It can't and isn't.
It's just that there must always be people who will start with " But are you really sure it is the same? " game...
Every single time.. Despite all being explained in detail...
It is simple. 500 MHz option is being sold as after sales, user installable software option. You enter license and it unlocks scope (any SDS2000x+) to a fully featured , CALIBRATED 500 MHz version. That means every single one was calibrated and tested to 500 MHz version standards, and then by software configuration it was delegated what bandwidth it will have.
So you activate license for 500 MHz, you get 500 MHz version. Period. How you activated license doesn't matter.
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It is simple. 500 MHz option is being sold as after sales, user installable software option. You enter license and it unlocks scope (any SDS2000x+) to a fully featured , CALIBRATED 500 MHz version. That means every single one was calibrated and tested to 500 MHz version standards, and then by software configuration it was delegated what bandwidth it will have.
Bit of nitpicking, but actually the datasheet only states that the 350MHz model SDS2354X can be updated to 500MHz. It's a least possible that Siglent won't sell you an upgrade to 500MHz if your base model is the 100MHz or 200MHz model since they know that these models were not tested/calibrated for 500MHz. The fact that the scopes accept the update doesn't necessarily mean that this is really something officially supported by Siglent. As an example: the SDS5034X accepts the upgrade key for 1GHz but Siglent won't sell you this key knowing that the frontend won't reach 1GHz.
And since I already touched this topic:
It makes me think of the first generation sds5034x frontend which don't have the same hardware as the 500 and 1GHz.
IMHO it's still just an assumption that this ever changed. Or is there any proof in the meantime? At least the sections in the datasheet differentiating the 350MHz model remained unchanged. Or does Siglent sell an upgrade to 1HGz for the 350MHz model in the meantime (e.g. based on serial number)? If they don't: why shouldn't they unless there is a technical limitation?
Besides, it's not uncommon to use different placement for the 1GHz models. AFAIK Tek and Keysight did that in the past. And while different placement means different HW, it's not nearly as expensive as having a different PCB (layout).
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As an example: the SDS5034X accepts the upgrade key for 1GHz but Siglent won't sell you this key knowing that the frontend won't reach 1GHz.
Still to be demonstrated!
Regarding the 2354/2504 "war": i'm totally convinced it's just a "aesthetic" thing because of a file mishap at the moment of releasing the equipments from factory. I'll try to clarify it soon.
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As an example: the SDS5034X accepts the upgrade key for 1GHz but Siglent won't sell you this key knowing that the frontend won't reach 1GHz.
Still to be demonstrated!
User supperman posted a screenshot with a Bodnar 40ps pulse generator in this very thread but deleted it again. The reaction to this post is still visible here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3066078/?topicseen#msg3066078) though. The bandwidth of his scope after upgrading 1GHz was more in the 750MHz range. Which is not bad, but definitely not 1GHz.
He obviously assumed then that he got an old model but I'm unsure if this assumption was only based on the measurement or on a real production date.
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Confirmed by a sweep test?
first link, sweep original 2104X:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2964500/#msg2964500 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2964500/#msg2964500)
second link, sweep with 500Mhz hack (show 2354X in the system info):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2965752/#msg2965752 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2965752/#msg2965752)
Very nice thank you.
I don't see how a 2504X could be better.
It can't and isn't.
It's just that there must always be people who will start with " But are you really sure it is the same? " game...
Every single time.. Despite all being explained in detail...
It is simple. 500 MHz option is being sold as after sales, user installable software option. You enter license and it unlocks scope (any SDS2000x+) to a fully featured , CALIBRATED 500 MHz version. That means every single one was calibrated and tested to 500 MHz version standards, and then by software configuration it was delegated what bandwidth it will have.
So you activate license for 500 MHz, you get 500 MHz version. Period. How you activated license doesn't matter.
I'm not sure why you tell that to me, I also have some devices that have been tv84ed.
I have no doubt that most of their ( and other manufacturer ) device share the exact same hardware, all calibrated to support the highest bandwidth.
As 0xdeadbeef points out to you, there are still unknowns on the SDS5000X that could apply to the SDS2000X Plus.
There are differences in the silkscreen, maybe there are also on some passives values ?
In the previous SDS2000X, there were additional capacitors to limit bandwidth so Siglent masters the concept ;D
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As an example: the SDS5034X accepts the upgrade key for 1GHz but Siglent won't sell you this key knowing that the frontend won't reach 1GHz.
Still to be demonstrated!
User supperman posted a screenshot with a Bodnar 40ps pulse generator in this very thread but deleted it again. The reaction to this post is still visible here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3066078/?topicseen#msg3066078) though. The bandwidth of his scope after upgrading 1GHz was more in the 750MHz range. Which is not bad, but definitely not 1GHz.
He obviously assumed then that he got an old model but I'm unsure if this assumption was only based on the measurement or on a real production date.
SN# !
His newly purchased SDS5034X was older than my SDS5054X bought mid 2019.
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Confirmed by a sweep test?
first link, sweep original 2104X:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2964500/#msg2964500 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2964500/#msg2964500)
second link, sweep with 500Mhz hack (show 2354X in the system info):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2965752/#msg2965752 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2965752/#msg2965752)
Very nice thank you.
I don't see how a 2504X could be better.
It can't and isn't.
It's just that there must always be people who will start with " But are you really sure it is the same? " game...
Every single time.. Despite all being explained in detail...
It is simple. 500 MHz option is being sold as after sales, user installable software option. You enter license and it unlocks scope (any SDS2000x+) to a fully featured , CALIBRATED 500 MHz version. That means every single one was calibrated and tested to 500 MHz version standards, and then by software configuration it was delegated what bandwidth it will have.
So you activate license for 500 MHz, you get 500 MHz version. Period. How you activated license doesn't matter.
I'm not sure why you tell that to me, I also have some devices that have been tv84ed.
I have no doubt that most of their ( and other manufacturer ) device share the exact same hardware, all calibrated to support the highest bandwidth.
As 0xdeadbeef points out to you, there are still unknowns on the SDS5000X that could apply to the SDS2000X Plus.
There are differences in the silkscreen, maybe there are also on some passives values ?
In the previous SDS2000X, there were additional capacitors to limit bandwidth so Siglent masters the concept ;D
It wasn't addressed to you. It was more like continuation to your statement...
There are not unknowns. There was 2 versions of 5000X mainboard, but only one on 2000X+.
There cannot be difference in hardware in 2000X+ because all versions are software upgradeable to 500 MHz by user from the day one.
Only thing that is speculative is whether they stopped producing two versions of 5000X, which is logical to me that they did stop it and have only one version now for 5000X too. That is not 100% verified though. And also, you can also get older version from somebody's stock. So with 5000X it's a bit of lottery.
But 2000X+ is straightforward. There cannot be different board versions for different bandwidths. Only different revisions of mainboard as product progresses trough it's lifecycle.
mes amitiés,
Sinisa
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Confirmed by a sweep test?
first link, sweep original 2104X:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2964500/#msg2964500 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2964500/#msg2964500)
second link, sweep with 500Mhz hack (show 2354X in the system info):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2965752/#msg2965752 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2965752/#msg2965752)
Very nice thank you.
I don't see how a 2504X could be better.
It can't and isn't.
It's just that there must always be people who will start with " But are you really sure it is the same? " game...
Every single time.. Despite all being explained in detail...
It is simple. 500 MHz option is being sold as after sales, user installable software option. You enter license and it unlocks scope (any SDS2000x+) to a fully featured , CALIBRATED 500 MHz version. That means every single one was calibrated and tested to 500 MHz version standards, and then by software configuration it was delegated what bandwidth it will have.
So you activate license for 500 MHz, you get 500 MHz version. Period. How you activated license doesn't matter.
I'm not sure why you tell that to me, I also have some devices that have been tv84ed.
I have no doubt that most of their ( and other manufacturer ) device share the exact same hardware, all calibrated to support the highest bandwidth.
As 0xdeadbeef points out to you, there are still unknowns on the SDS5000X that could apply to the SDS2000X Plus.
There are differences in the silkscreen, maybe there are also on some passives values ?
In the previous SDS2000X, there were additional capacitors to limit bandwidth so Siglent masters the concept ;D
It wasn't addressed to you. It was more like continuation to your statement...
There are not unknowns. There was 2 versions of 5000X mainboard, but only one on 2000X+.
There cannot be difference in hardware in 2000X+ because all versions are software upgradeable to 500 MHz by user from the day one.
Only thing that is speculative is whether they stopped producing two versions of 5000X, which is logical to me that they did stop it and have only one version now for 5000X too. That is not 100% verified though. And also, you can also get older version from somebody's stock. So with 5000X it's a bit of lottery.
But 2000X+ is straightforward. There cannot be different board versions for different bandwidths. Only different revisions of mainboard as product progresses trough it's lifecycle.
mes amitiés,
Sinisa
I think we can't buy the 500Mhz license for a 2104X+ or 2204X+.
But it's probably just marketing.
How can you be sure there is only one HW version? You may have info from the inside (I'm not asking you to reveal it, just know if you have info that ordinary people don't have).
I tick a little bit about the differences on the silkscreen. Maybe there are other less obvious differences but it's not really that important.
KeBeNe's screenshot speaks for itself.
And it will only take a few minutes for tv84 to find the problem in the software side.
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This is part why I did try to get to the front of the pcb as well, only the back side can be confirmed to have identical hardware components, and yeah i ignored the silkscreen
Mine taps out at around 550Mhz for its front end
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SN# !
His newly purchased SDS5034X was older than my SDS5054X bought mid 2019.
What are the good SN#s?
What if the same digital filter (probably FIR in FPGA) that is used to restrict the BW in lower models is used to boost the upper side of the spectrum in the top model (and the increased noise is treated with BW limit in low mV/div settings)?
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SN# !
His newly purchased SDS5034X was older than my SDS5054X bought mid 2019.
What are the good SN#s?
What if the same digital filter (probably FIR in FPGA) that is used to restrict the BW in lower models is used to boost the upper side of the spectrum in the top model (and the increased noise is treated with BW limit in low mV/div settings)?
The unit uses a hardware chip in the front end that is able to change the limit, Dave shows it and a datasheet in his video
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The unit uses a hardware chip in the front end that is able to change the limit, Dave shows it and a datasheet in his video
I guess that's for 20 and 200MHz. What's the chip btw?
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The unit uses a hardware chip in the front end that is able to change the limit, Dave shows it and a datasheet in his video
I guess that's for 20 and 200MHz. What's the chip btw?
The LMH6518 is a digitally controlled variable gain amplifier with built in bandwidth limitation. It can limit to 20, 100, 200, 350, 650 and 750MHz. So it's justified to believe that it's also used to limit the scope's bandwidth to 100, 200 and 350MHz.
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6) Open a command window on PC, write 'telnet +IP address of your scope'
Can someone try this with the new firmware installed ?
Tried this a few minutes ago and it fails - "Connection refused"....
Maybe the new fw is the reason.
Will downgrade and test it again - Later….
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The unit uses a hardware chip in the front end that is able to change the limit, Dave shows it and a datasheet in his video
I guess that's for 20 and 200MHz. What's the chip btw?
The LMH6518 is a digitally controlled variable gain amplifier with built in bandwidth limitation. It can limit to 20, 100, 200, 350, 650 and 750MHz. So it's justified to believe that it's also used to limit the scope's bandwidth to 100, 200 and 350MHz.
Why is it then that if the BW restriction is active and significantly higher frequency sine than the limit is connected (let's say 2x the BW) the display cannot be filled vertically with the signal?
If a lower V/div is attempted, there will be all kind of artifacts like increased sensitivity resulting in smaller signal displayed and shifted vertically (and the signal falls apart very quickly if continued). I've interpreted it as a sign that the analogue side (including ADC) is overdriven but it's not directly obvious from the display since the digital filter attenuates the signal only after the analogue part.
So I've assumed that a pure filtering loss in the analogue side can be compensated with increased gain.
But maybe I've guessed it wrong.
Another issue is that based on datasheet the afformentioned chip's -3dB point is at 900MHz. A bit low for 1GHz and a bit on the high side for 500MHz.
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6) Open a command window on PC, write 'telnet +IP address of your scope'
Can someone try this with the new firmware installed ?
Tried this a few minutes ago and it fails - "Connection refused"....
Maybe the new fw is the reason.
Will downgrade and test it again - Later….
It still works. The password is unchanged, too.
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aha....
In the prompt, I´ve typed Telnet XXX.XXX.X.XXX and enter...after a few seconds the message appeared witch connection refused (can´t connect to remote host).
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Why is it then that if the BW restriction is active and significantly higher frequency sine than the limit is connected (let's say 2x the BW) the display cannot be filled vertically with the signal?
I'm not sure if I understand the question. If the bandwidth limit is set to 350MHz and you connect a 700MHz signal, there will still be a sine, but its amplitude will be much lower than expected (way beyond the 3dB point).
Whether you can fill the display or not is a matter of scope settings, but still the amplitude (absolute voltage) of the signal will be too low.
So I've assumed that a pure filtering loss in the analogue side can be compensated with increased gain.
You overlook the frequency dependency. The higher the frequency the smaller the amplitude. Since every signal is composed of a superposition of sinusoidal signals of different frequencies (Fourier series), a bandwidth limitation will remove the amplitude of higher frequency components. I.e. it will remove sharp edges from signals etc.
Another issue is that based on datasheet the afformentioned chip's -3dB point is at 900MHz. A bit low for 1GHz and a bit on the high side for 500MHz.
So what? The variable gain amplifier used in the SDS2000X series had a limit of 750MHz and the scopes were limited to 300MHz. Obviously you don't want the bandwidth of the amplifier to be a major factor in the system bandwidth, so choosing something with roughly twice the bandwidth seems somewhat reasonable.
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Whether you can fill the display or not is a matter of scope settings
Nope. With SDS503xX or 505xX there is no such setting if artificial BW limit is exceeded significantly.
Sorry I've realized that I'm in the wrong thread and that has created a confusion.
You overlook the frequency dependency. The higher the frequency the smaller the amplitude. Since every signal is composed of a superposition of sinusoidal signals of different frequencies (Fourier series), a bandwidth limitation will remove the amplitude of higher frequency components. I.e. it will remove sharp edges from signals etc.
I meant and wrote sine, pure sine to be precise.
So what? The variable gain amplifier used in the SDS2000X series had a limit of 750MHz and the scopes were limited to 300MHz. Obviously you don't want the bandwidth of the amplifier to be a major factor in the system bandwidth, so choosing something with roughly twice the bandwidth seems somewhat reasonable.
Sorry wrong thread, my fault, I stop here.
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First post here.
I'm wonder how long that someone will found the silkscreen truth :palm:, but no one does yet.
There is no different silkscreen versions at all, the “difference” is just from different channels. Just that simple.
Pics are all from other users under this topic, thanks.
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6) Open a command window on PC, write 'telnet +IP address of your scope'
Can someone try this with the new firmware installed ?
Tried this a few minutes ago and it fails - "Connection refused"....
Maybe the new fw is the reason.
Will downgrade and test it again - Later….
It still works. The password is unchanged, too.
This is what I get:
[attach=1]
-
:-DD
-
???
Tell me what´s wrong..
-
I think you must add the telnet port as :
telnet <IP> 5024
Frex
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SDS2354X+/SDS2504X+ DESIGNATION MYSTERY [BUSTED]
Have you ever heard about .CFG files for setting up Siglent HW? ;)
Those that report a SDS2354X+ possess this sys_cfg.cfg file in the firmdata0:
Reversing 1st part of the file [00000000-00000CF7]...
XORing with 0xFF (incrementing pattern)...
XORing with 0xFF from 0x0000067C until 0x00000CF7
00000000 - Main Checksum: FFFFD394 [00000004-00000CF7] CKSM OK
00000008 - Product_Type: SIGLENT
00000028 - CFG Type: SDS2000X Plus
0000003C - Manufacturer: SIGLENT
00000047 - CML/CNL flag: 0
00000048 - Product_ID: 15100
0000004C - Image Size: 00000000 (0 pixels)
00000050 - USBTMC_Product_IDs: EE39 EE38 EE3A
00000056 - USBTMC_Vendor_ID: F4EC
00000058 - Product Family: SDS
0000005C - Manufacturer_Name: Siglent
0000009C - CFG Flags: 01 01 01 01 00 00 01 00 1800 0B
000000A8 - Model Name 00:
000000B7 - Model Name 01:
000000C6 - Model Name 02:
000000D5 - Model Name 03: SDS2104X Plus
000000E4 - Model Name 04:
000000F3 - Model Name 05: SDS2204X Plus
00000102 - Model Name 06:
00000111 - Model Name 07: SDS2304X Plus
00000120 - Model Name 08:
0000012F - Model Name 09: SDS2074X Plus
00000140 - Model Name 10: SDS2354X Plus
0000014F - Model Name 11: SDS2354X Plus
Those that report a SDS2504X+ possess this sys_cfg.cfg file in the firmdata0:
Reversing 1st part of the file [00000000-00000CF7]...
XORing with 0xFF (incrementing pattern)...
XORing with 0xFF from 0x0000067C until 0x00000CF7
00000000 - Main Checksum: FFFFD397 [00000004-00000CF7] CKSM OK
00000008 - Product_Type: SIGLENT
00000028 - CFG Type: SDS2000X Plus
0000003C - Manufacturer: SIGLENT
00000047 - CML/CNL flag: 0
00000048 - Product_ID: 15100
0000004C - Image Size: 00000000 (0 pixels)
00000050 - USBTMC_Product_IDs: EE39 EE38 EE3A
00000056 - USBTMC_Vendor_ID: F4EC
00000058 - Product Family: SDS
0000005C - Manufacturer_Name: Siglent
0000009C - CFG Flags: 01 01 01 01 00 00 01 00 1800 0B
000000A8 - Model Name 00:
000000B7 - Model Name 01:
000000C6 - Model Name 02:
000000D5 - Model Name 03: SDS2104X Plus
000000E4 - Model Name 04:
000000F3 - Model Name 05: SDS2204X Plus
00000102 - Model Name 06:
00000111 - Model Name 07: SDS2304X Plus
00000120 - Model Name 08:
0000012F - Model Name 09: SDS2074X Plus
00000140 - Model Name 10: SDS2354X Plus
0000014F - Model Name 11: SDS2504X Plus
See the difference? :popcorn: It seems Siglent, at the beginning, was shipping the 1st file. After some months it changed to the 2nd one.
Solution:
- Replace the file (via linux) and the scope automatically will assume the new setting after reboot. TESTED OK
Attached is the file of a SDS2504X+.
Now you can all stop discussing this BW thing and move on!
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Copy paste error
I was wondering as such or similar bug, thanks tv
Also im assuming no serialization in that config file ;p
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SDS2354X Plus to a SDS2504X Plus. (Sys-Info Mod)
first, enable telnet: create a file named as 'siglent_device_startup.sh', content 'telnetd'
then copy sys_cfg.cfg to usb drive
telnet user name 'root'
password "siglent_sds1000x_e"
mount -o remount,rw,sync /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
cp -R /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/sys_cfg.cfg /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0
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???
Tell me what´s wrong..
Sorry Martin, I was just refering to the Tankj post.
He puts his finger on the fact that there is actually no difference in the silkscreen....so 3 pages for nothing :blah:
Don't know what is going wrong with your telnet session.
A user encountered a problem after firmware update on the webserver ( white page instead of the scope screen )
Updating the firmware a second time and the problem was gone. Maybe you can try to update once again ?
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He puts his finger on the fact that there is actually no difference in the silkscreen....so 3 pages for nothing :blah:
I also loved it! :-DD
-
Sometimes, things could get very easy... ;D
Deskew Fixture:
Contact siglent.eu what my buyed item concerns, when it will arrive…
Probably next week, they don´t got it in stock.
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SDS2354X+/SDS2504X+ DESIGNATION MYSTERY [BUSTED]...
:-+
-
Siglent engineers must be trolling us :-DD
Great job tv84. Upgraded mine to SDS2754X+ :P
-
Tadaa…
Thanks to KeBeNe and the special one…. :-+
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Why not going directly to a SDS5104X ? ;D
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Why not going directly to a SDS5104X ? ;D
Zodiac or bust, lame its china only
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What is Zodiac?
Their new hw platform?
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What is Zodiac?
Their new hw platform?
Yeah.. that was the project name for the SDS6000 series
https://www.siglent.com/products-annex/sds6000-pro/ (https://www.siglent.com/products-annex/sds6000-pro/)
-
Why not going directly to a SDS5104X ? ;D
Nah, it was physically too big for my desk :-DD
-
What is interesting is that investigating this designation mystery lead me to discover another thing that may be a breakthrough for a group of other Siglent equipments... Stay tuned!
-
Oaaahhh, cliffhanger….bad, really bad guy ;D
-
Surely SVA/SSA related.
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Surely SVA/SSA related.
Nope. Other SDS's...
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Changed model to SDS2504X Plus using the sys_cfg.cfg copy method. I made a backup to USB before replacing it.
Made some measurements:
Marconi 2024 signal generator -> SMA-SMA cable -> SDS2104X plus (hacked to SDS2504X plus) 50ohm input
10MHz 0dbm loss
100MHz 0dBm loss
200MHz 0dBm loss
500MHz 0dBm loss
550MHz -3dBm
700MHz -6dBm
900MHz -10dBm
1GHz -20dBm or greater attenuation. Signal not reliably visible at any vertical scale
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I thought that sys_cfg.cfg was just about the displayed name!?
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I think it is a binary file... just in case...
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I thought that sys_cfg.cfg was just about the displayed name!?
And you thought well!
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Since the bandwidth limiting is done inside a chip is it possible to hack the 100MHz version to 500MHz ??
cheers
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Since the bandwidth limiting is done inside a chip is it possible to hack the 100MHz version to 500MHz ??
cheers
Yes. Look at: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-hack/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-hack/)
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Hi everyone,
I'm new to this Forum and for some days a new owner of that beautiful device! I own an Electric Engineering Degree for 35 y now and started
on the wrong side of the iron curtain with elctronics, (TTL, Zilog Z80, CCD sensors...)
I'm out of the E-business for 25+ years (and now in the healthcare industries) but for 10y I restarted as hobbyist elctronics.
In the beginning with Audio, now with microcontroller etc.
I looked around for month for a new Oscilloscope @ EEV, looked all the related videos @ youtube, saw Daves teardowns and at the end I considered to buy the SDS 1104X-E, later than I was more focused on the Rigol MSO5000.
Then the new Baby showed up on the market and after dealing with the WAF I orderd it by Welectron and it arrived after 2 days!!
Now to my small contribution to all followers.
After playing around with the device I started well prepared with all Information from this Forum the "improvement" process.
But unfortuneately it didn'd work for me! I double and tripple checked the Scope ID, tested all variations with upper char and lower char, tested every tool
I found in the web - nothing! :=\ "Your data were not accepted"
To make a 5 hour long story short: At the end it is a bug in firmware. (My device arrived with 1.3.3) But I think I better don't report it....
To have this famous christmas feeling (starting with the smallest parcel) I began with "improving" the FG-function and not the bandwith.
But this is the only one you have to use once before you can enter the code!!!! |O
After hours I switched to other options which all worked and found that little bug! So never start with improving the FG-option without using it before!
For newbies as me it is also worth mentioning that you have to do the bandwith improvement in steps from 100->200->350->500 and to avoid the others or
shortcuts (i.e. to try to go from 100->500 in one step)
Attached a measurment I have done over night to check the timebase with an 1pps GPS pulse. The second measurement is a Feeltec FY6900 Generator.
Both not that bad!!
My device reports itself as SDS2504.
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It doesn't really matter for your measurement and just for the record: using channel 1 and 2 or 3 and 4 at the same time results in the scope not being able to interleave its AD converters and memory which effectively halves the sampling rate and memory. So when using only two channels on a (typical interleaving) 4ch scope, it's good practice to use only e.g. channel 1 and 3.
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For newbies as me it is also worth mentioning that you have to do the bandwith improvement in steps from 100->200->350->500 and to avoid the others or shortcuts (i.e. to try to go from 100->500 in one step)
Not true! You can jump from 100 to 500 and back to 100 with no problems. The scope has no way to know if you were at 100 or 200, etc...
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While testing my alternative digital probe adapter design i have found some quirks with Measure Statistics:
If all analog inputs are disabled the statistics of digital inputs are not updated, only the actual values are.
[attach=1]
Someone who can confirm?
-
Hi tv84
I'm pretty sure that you are right. But how to do that?
In the options menu you only find at first the choice to upgrade to BW2 (100->200) after activating from BW3 (200->350) and than BW5 (350->500)
I didn'd try to enter the "last" improvement key at first, would that be possible and is this the way back to 100 MHz?
Thanks for your advice!
Another dumb question:
Can someone plz explain how the device performs 10 bit resolution. In my understanding there is no 10 bit ADC inside?
-
.....................
Another dumb question:
Can someone plz explain how the device performs 10 bit resolution. In my understanding there is no 10 bit ADC inside?
Limited to ~ 100 MHz.
Check the first couple of pages in this thread.
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What is interesting is that investigating this designation mystery lead me to discover another thing that may be a breakthrough for a group of other Siglent equipments... Stay tuned!
The contents of the SDS2000X+ .CFG file is this:
00000000 - Main Checksum: FFFFD397 [00000004-00000CF7] CKSM OK
00000008 - Product_Type: SIGLENT
00000028 - CFG Type: SDS2000X Plus
0000003C - Manufacturer_Name: SIGLENT
00000047 - CFG Flag_____CML/CNL: 00
00000048 - Product_ID: 15100
0000004C - Logo Image Size: 00000000 (0 pixels)
00000050 - USBTMC_Product_IDs: EE39 EE38 EE3A
00000056 - USBTMC_Vendor_ID: F4EC
00000058 - Product Family: SDS
0000005C - Logo_Manufacturer: Siglent
0000009C - CFG Flag_pic_machine: 01
0000009D - CFG Flag_sys_machine: 01
0000009E - CFG Flag_____USB_TMC: 01
0000009F - CFG Flag________ERES: 01
000000A0 - CFG Flag______neuter: 00
000000A1 - CFG Flag________gate: 01 (00)
000000A2 - CFG Flag________roll: 01
000000A3 - CFG Flag___________A: 00 not_used(?)
000000A4 - CFG Flag___Language1: 1800 (1800)
000000A6 - CFG Flag___Language2: 0B (0B)
000000A7 - CFG Flag___________B: 00
000000A8 - Machine Name 20 MHz:
000000B7 - Machine Name 40 MHz:
000000C6 - Machine Name 60 MHz:
000000D5 - Machine Name 100 MHz: SDS2104X Plus
000000E4 - Machine Name 150 MHz:
000000F3 - Machine Name 200 MHz: SDS2204X Plus
00000102 - Machine Name 250 MHz:
00000111 - Machine Name 300 MHz: SDS2304X Plus
00000120 - Machine Name 50 MHz:
0000012F - Machine Name 70 MHz: SDS2074X Plus
0000013E - CFG Flag___BW_change: 0100
00000140 - Machine Name 350 MHz: SDS2354X Plus
0000014F - Machine Name 500 MHz: SDS2504X Plus
0000015E - Machine Name 750 MHz:
0000016D - Machine Name1000 MHz:
Can anyone give some ideas about what the following flags might be used for? (The suffixes were extracted from the function_names where they are used.)
0000009C - CFG Flag_pic_machine: 01
0000009D - CFG Flag_sys_machine: 01
0000009E - CFG Flag_____USB_TMC: 01
0000009F - CFG Flag________ERES: 01
000000A0 - CFG Flag______neuter: 00
000000A1 - CFG Flag________gate: 01 (00)
000000A2 - CFG Flag________roll: 01
Edit: in the picture attached we can see a comparison with the old .CFG files used to configure Siglent equipments.
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I'm pretty sure that you are right. But how to do that?
With the SCPI MCBD command. Look around.
-
What is interesting is that investigating this designation mystery lead me to discover another thing that may be a breakthrough for a group of other Siglent equipments... Stay tuned!
The contents of the SDS2000X+ .CFG file is this:
00000000 - Main Checksum: FFFFD397 [00000004-00000CF7] CKSM OK
00000008 - Product_Type: SIGLENT
00000028 - CFG Type: SDS2000X Plus
0000003C - Manufacturer_Name: SIGLENT
00000047 - CFG Flag_____CML/CNL: 00
00000048 - Product_ID: 15100
0000004C - Logo Image Size: 00000000 (0 pixels)
00000050 - USBTMC_Product_IDs: EE39 EE38 EE3A
00000056 - USBTMC_Vendor_ID: F4EC
00000058 - Product Family: SDS
0000005C - Logo_Manufacturer: Siglent
0000009C - CFG Flag_pic_machine: 01
0000009D - CFG Flag_sys_machine: 01
0000009E - CFG Flag_____USB_TMC: 01
0000009F - CFG Flag________ERES: 01
000000A0 - CFG Flag______neuter: 00
000000A1 - CFG Flag________gate: 01 (00)
000000A2 - CFG Flag________roll: 01
000000A3 - CFG Flag___________A: 00 not_used(?)
000000A4 - CFG Flag___Language1: 1800 (1800)
000000A6 - CFG Flag___Language2: 0B (0B)
000000A7 - CFG Flag___________B: 00
000000A8 - Machine Name 20 MHz:
000000B7 - Machine Name 40 MHz:
000000C6 - Machine Name 60 MHz:
000000D5 - Machine Name 100 MHz: SDS2104X Plus
000000E4 - Machine Name 150 MHz:
000000F3 - Machine Name 200 MHz: SDS2204X Plus
00000102 - Machine Name 250 MHz:
00000111 - Machine Name 300 MHz: SDS2304X Plus
00000120 - Machine Name 50 MHz:
0000012F - Machine Name 70 MHz: SDS2074X Plus
0000013E - CFG Flag___BW_change: 0100
00000140 - Machine Name 350 MHz: SDS2354X Plus
0000014F - Machine Name 500 MHz: SDS2504X Plus
0000015E - Machine Name 750 MHz:
0000016D - Machine Name1000 MHz:
Can anyone give some ideas about what the following flags might be used for? (The suffixes were extracted from the function_names where they are used.)
0000009C - CFG Flag_pic_machine: 01
0000009D - CFG Flag_sys_machine: 01
0000009E - CFG Flag_____USB_TMC: 01
0000009F - CFG Flag________ERES: 01
000000A0 - CFG Flag______neuter: 00
000000A1 - CFG Flag________gate: 01 (00)
000000A2 - CFG Flag________roll: 01
USBTMC is command and control via USB, i'd say its for identifing if this model has support or not and further sets up the module with the ID codes
But whats up with... neuter? lol, i almost dont want to know
-
What is interesting is that investigating this designation mystery lead me to discover another thing that may be a breakthrough for a group of other Siglent equipments... Stay tuned!
The contents of the SDS2000X+ .CFG file is this:
00000000 - Main Checksum: FFFFD397 [00000004-00000CF7] CKSM OK
00000008 - Product_Type: SIGLENT
00000028 - CFG Type: SDS2000X Plus
0000003C - Manufacturer_Name: SIGLENT
00000047 - CFG Flag_____CML/CNL: 00
00000048 - Product_ID: 15100
0000004C - Logo Image Size: 00000000 (0 pixels)
00000050 - USBTMC_Product_IDs: EE39 EE38 EE3A
00000056 - USBTMC_Vendor_ID: F4EC
00000058 - Product Family: SDS
0000005C - Logo_Manufacturer: Siglent
0000009C - CFG Flag_pic_machine: 01
0000009D - CFG Flag_sys_machine: 01
0000009E - CFG Flag_____USB_TMC: 01
0000009F - CFG Flag________ERES: 01
000000A0 - CFG Flag______neuter: 00
000000A1 - CFG Flag________gate: 01 (00)
000000A2 - CFG Flag________roll: 01
000000A3 - CFG Flag___________A: 00 not_used(?)
000000A4 - CFG Flag___Language1: 1800 (1800)
000000A6 - CFG Flag___Language2: 0B (0B)
000000A7 - CFG Flag___________B: 00
000000A8 - Machine Name 20 MHz:
000000B7 - Machine Name 40 MHz:
000000C6 - Machine Name 60 MHz:
000000D5 - Machine Name 100 MHz: SDS2104X Plus
000000E4 - Machine Name 150 MHz:
000000F3 - Machine Name 200 MHz: SDS2204X Plus
00000102 - Machine Name 250 MHz:
00000111 - Machine Name 300 MHz: SDS2304X Plus
00000120 - Machine Name 50 MHz:
0000012F - Machine Name 70 MHz: SDS2074X Plus
0000013E - CFG Flag___BW_change: 0100
00000140 - Machine Name 350 MHz: SDS2354X Plus
0000014F - Machine Name 500 MHz: SDS2504X Plus
0000015E - Machine Name 750 MHz:
0000016D - Machine Name1000 MHz:
Can anyone give some ideas about what the following flags might be used for? (The suffixes were extracted from the function_names where they are used.)
0000009C - CFG Flag_pic_machine: 01
0000009D - CFG Flag_sys_machine: 01
0000009E - CFG Flag_____USB_TMC: 01
0000009F - CFG Flag________ERES: 01
000000A0 - CFG Flag______neuter: 00
000000A1 - CFG Flag________gate: 01 (00)
000000A2 - CFG Flag________roll: 01
Edit: in the picture attached we can see a comparison with the old .CFG files used to configure Siglent equipments.
Nice Find :clap:
I am getting strong feelings of envy by not having a SDS2000X Plus - maybe time to join - TEA therapy - or simply get the damm device to enjoy the journey of discovery with you guy's ;)
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Ah! Thanks I got it!
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Nice Find :clap:
I am getting strong feelings of envy by not having a SDS2000X Plus - maybe time to join - TEA therapy - or simply get the damm device to enjoy the journey of discovery with you guy's ;)
Do it.. it makes a good companion to that SSA/SVA ;)
I got a 3 foot long shelf both sit back on just above my main bench area
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While testing my alternative digital probe adapter design i have found some quirks with Measure Statistics:
If all analog inputs are disabled the statistics of digital inputs are not updated, only the actual values are.
(Attachment Link)
Someone who can confirm?
I would struggle to expect any digital measurements to be correct when AC line triggering is selected. :-//
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Nice Find :clap:
I am getting strong feelings of envy by not having a SDS2000X Plus - maybe time to join - TEA therapy - or simply get the damm device to enjoy the journey of discovery with you guy's ;)
Do it.. it makes a good companion to that SSA/SVA ;)
I got a 3 foot long shelf both sit back on just above my main bench area
Unfortunately I allready have a 'upgraded' SDS1104X-E (bought last year, well before the 2000X Plus series)
I also received a good suggestion (from tv - a possible 'TEA therapy' member??) that I should not hoard :(
Maybe I should hold out until the 7000X series (if at all) hits the market??
BUT, the rational part of me , says, that if and when it does happen (the 7000X series) - its going to be in a different price league to the 2000X Plus series :P
So your suggestion is very tempting - the excuse for me will be that I can use the 2000x Plus to 'calibrate' the SDS1104X-E :P
With that in mind, for those of you in the UK is GBP 950 (EX VAT) a good price for a SDS2104X Plus ?
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With that in mind, for those of you in the UK is GBP 950 (EX VAT) a good price for a SDS2104X Plus ?
1200 Euro is list price.
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7000X??? :scared:
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Forget it, in a price manner.
5000X was beyond from hobbyists in that manner, 6000X more and what could then 7000X means...
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While testing my alternative digital probe adapter design i have found some quirks with Measure Statistics:
If all analog inputs are disabled the statistics of digital inputs are not updated, only the actual values are.
(Attachment Link)
Someone who can confirm?
I would struggle to expect any digital measurements to be correct when AC line triggering is selected. :-//
The measurement is correct. Only statistics are not calculated/displayed.
This behavior is independent from trigger source, except if source is an analog channel (which must be active for trigger).
Why should trigger source compromise measurement of period or pulsewidth? Both are just counting sample clocks between edges in memory buffer.
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Nice Find :clap:
I am getting strong feelings of envy by not having a SDS2000X Plus - maybe time to join - TEA therapy - or simply get the damm device to enjoy the journey of discovery with you guy's ;)
Do it.. it makes a good companion to that SSA/SVA ;)
I got a 3 foot long shelf both sit back on just above my main bench area
Unfortunately I allready have a 'upgraded' SDS1104X-E (bought last year, well before the 2000X Plus series)
I also received a good suggestion (from tv - a possible 'TEA therapy' member??) that I should not hoard :(
Maybe I should hold out until the 7000X series (if at all) hits the market??
BUT, the rational part of me , says, that if and when it does happen (the 7000X series) - its going to be in a different price league to the 2000X Plus series :P
So your suggestion is very tempting - the excuse for me will be that I can use the 2000x Plus to 'calibrate' the SDS1104X-E :P
With that in mind, for those of you in the UK is GBP 950 (EX VAT) a good price for a SDS2104X Plus ?
I just sold my 1104X-E just the other day :P
Their 5k and up line all start at 3500usd min.. maybe when i got a bunch of cash with nothing to do but that is not today.. not worth it in my lab atm.. doubt that line goes lower less replaced and inventory sale
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Hello,
Long time reader but little posting,
Try the following with an AWG of 120 MHz and the scope.
Turn on Vpp measurements and in the aquire menu, set to 8 bits and for each frequency see both Vpp values for 8 bit’s and 10 bit’s, see the delta.
Manually go from frequencies from 10 MHz to 120 MHz in 10 MHz steps.
What do you see?
Do you see stability in 8 bit mode but an increasing in the delta of 8 bit to 10 bit mode?
Is this increase normal? Is it only explained by the 100MHz -3dB, but if so, it should only have an effect after 50 MHz? Right?
Last, a message for TV84, in Portuguese:
Amigo TV84, muito obrigado,
eu devo-lhe uma caixa de cervejas :-)
Pensei que 580 MHz só em sonhos.
Thank you,
Best regards,
João Carvalho
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Hello,
Long time reader but little posting,
Try the following with an AWG of 120 MHz and the scope.
Turn on Vpp measurements and in the aquire menu, set to 8 bits and for each frequency see both Vpp values for 8 bit’s and 10 bit’s, see the delta.
Manually go from frequencies from 10 MHz to 120 MHz in 10 MHz steps.
What do you see?
Do you see stability in 8 bit mode but an increasing in the delta of 8 bit to 10 bit mode?
Is this increase normal? Is it only explained by the 100MHz -3dB, but if so, it should only have an effect after 50 MHz? Right?
Last, a message for TV84, in Portuguese:
Amigo TV84, muito obrigado,
eu devo-lhe uma caixa de cervejas :-)
Pensei que 580 MHz só em sonhos.
Thank you,
Best regards,
João Carvalho
10 bit mode is only specified below 100Mhz.
See datasheet.
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Hello DL2XY, thank you for your reply,
I’m well aware of the -3db at 100 MHz for the 10 bit’s mode I was speaking about it in my post, but I had the perception that it only started to affect the measurement after half the bandwidth 50 MHz.
Knowing that the chip that makes the bandwidth limitation in hardware as a 100 MHz stop value, among others and that it is in the ~180MHz zone for the 100MHz stock scope. I was hoping that the 10 bit would not be an exact digital filter of 100 MHz, and that it would not start making it’s effect on the accuracy of the measured Vpp of the signal before 50 Mhz, half the bandwidth.
Because of this mode (I know that there are other, like the 20 MHz and the 200 MHz), we have effetely two scopes inside one to compare.
So I took the following measurements of 1 Vpp at 8 bits and at 10 bits:
10MHz 8: 1.027V – 10: 1.0067V -> delta: 20.3mV
20MHz 8: 1.027V – 10: 1.000V -> delta: 27mV
30MHz 8: 1.031V – 10: 990mV -> delta: 41mV
40MHz 8: 1.033V – 10: 974mV -> delta: 59mV
50MHz 8: 1.030V – 10: 948mV -> delta: 82mV
60MHz 8: 1.031V – 10: 921mV -> delta: 110mV
70MHz 8: 1.032V – 10: 889mV -> delta: 143mV
80MHz 8: 1.028V – 10: 850mV -> delta: 178mV
90MHz 8: 1.029V – 10: 812mV -> delta: 217mV
100MHz 8: 1.025V – 10: 770mV -> delta: 255mV
110MHz 8: 1.032V – 10: 732mV -> delta: 300mV
120MHz 8: 1.030V – 10: 677mV -> delta: 353mV
Best regards.
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Amigo TV84, muito obrigado,
eu devo-lhe uma caixa de cervejas :-)
Pensei que 580 MHz só em sonhos.
João, obrigado.
Now that the forum has helped you, just continue posting to help others in the forum.
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To have this famous christmas feeling (starting with the smallest parcel) I began with "improving" the FG-function and not the bandwith.
But this is the only one you have to use once before you can enter the code!!!! |O
After hours I switched to other options which all worked and found that little bug! So never start with improving the FG-option without using it before!
Aha...
This could be the reason why I didn´t have the Problem while installing the keys - I´ve "played" with the FG before..
For newbies as me it is also worth mentioning that you have to do the bandwith improvement in steps from 100->200->350->500 and to avoid the others or
shortcuts (i.e. to try to go from 100->500 in one step)
My first step was turning 100Mhz to 350Mhz, then 500Mhz without a problem.
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TV84, I will.
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Has anyone checked to see if they can achieve the claimed 120K wfs/s acquisition rates on this scope ?? The measurements Dave made on the sds5000 scope was somewhat disappointing so I'm just wondering.
Also how fast is the serial decoding ?? Looks a bit sluggish from what I have seen.
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I’ve been thinking seriously |O about the purchase of a 2104X Plus and about to ‘push-the-button’ ...
For those of you also addicted to this device – so we can ALL benefit in a cost effective purchase – I propose a ‘bulk buy’ of perhaps 5 units.
This purchase is in the UK – so best suited for members who reside in the UK.
Delivery will be ‘next day’ (within the UK).
The ‘saving’ is likely to be 10% off the ‘street price’
If anyone is interested please PM
This is ‘open’ only for 7 days from today (date of post).
NOTE: I am not sure if posting a ‘bulk purchase’ request is against the forum rules OR there is a more appropriate section of the forums. I know there is a BUY / SELL section – but since this is a Siglent SDS2000X Plus thread – I thought it would get best traction here for those such as myself who have developed a strong (uncontrolled |O) desire to start ‘fiddling’ with this great bit of kit :P
Moderator(s) please feel free to delete or move this post if appropriate.
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You can normally get 5-7% off just by asking and saying your a forum member most places :-+
So really it comes down to is an extra 40-60 bucks worth the hassle? Kinda ehh :-//
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You can normally get 5-7% off just by asking and saying your a forum member most places :-+
So really it comes down to is an extra 40-60 bucks worth the hassle? Kinda ehh :-//
I hear what you say - but this is 'on top' of the forum discount :-\
... anyway - just a though for those who are inerested ;)
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So can the $999 SDS2102X-Plus be fully upgraded with 4 channels and all features to 500MHz or is this where people are buying the 4 channel version instead of 2 thinking it'll warranty the 4 channel hardware at least again? Also where can I get the best price on these from in the USA where they honor the EEVblog discount?
Thnx,
Bill
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I have test a little more and found that I can make with my AWG a burst of one cycle of a sinusoidal at frequencies up to 120 MHz. It has both channels synchronized so we can make phase shift measures of both channels, especially in the case of a 20 MHz channel limit (used here as an example) because it’s dependent on the channel and not globally to the scope, like the acquisition bit deep 8 bits and 10 bits. The small fixed AWG inter-channel was measured and accounted for, in the data appears as corr (correction) and was of 1.05 nS.
But all my measures of phase shift where made comparing Channel 1 with Full Bandwidth with Channel 2 with 20 MHz limited bandwidth. I used math channels for both real channels with averaging and the phase measures between different bandlimit channel can’t be made with the Measurements menu, they had to be done by hand.
Note: I don’t know why the scope doesn’t permit inter bandwidth limit vs full bandwidth channel measurements.
The amplitude was also measured for the same channel with and without the bandlimit.
The connection between the scope and the AWG was a BNC 50 Ohms coaxial cable.
Please see the image and the excel file for the data.
There are considerable amplitude attenuations and considerable phase shifts as was expected.
The simple idea that I proposed is the correction of this effect and in this case I think that it could give a correction for the 20 MHz band limit of at least up to 40 MHz. In a normal 1 G sample scope the 20 MHz would be the 100 Mhz scope bandwith and the 40 Mhz would be the 500 Mhz Nyquiest limit. You have to use your imagination here :-D Like I said this can be made for any scope, for any bandwith, because it is made against the frequency response of the scope.
I use the 20 MHz band limit as an example and not as the final object, that is to correct for 0 Hz up to 1 GHz (950 MHz), but I don’t have a signal generator capable of hitting those high frequencies, I’m limit to what I have and that is a 40 Mhz Siglent AWG hacked to 120 MHz.
But I think that there is a way to make the phase frequency characterization of up to 1 GHz using a signal generator of a one single channel.
The ideia is that a low frequency sinusoidal signal ex: a 50 Mhz (10 %) for a 580 MHz scope are only really residually affected by a phase shift, and that high frequency signal is highly affected (phase shifted). So we have to find a way to compare the delta in time of the slow frequency wave top to the high frequency phase top, but we have to take out the part that is related to the fact the one wave is faster than the other, so we have to take out 1/4 period of the high freq wave times the frequency ratio between freq_ref_slow and freq_fast. And configure the channel of the fast signal wave to deskew for that delta. The result phase shift will be the real phase shift between the signals of different frequencies. To better measure use coursers and invert the channel, comparing top Ref_A (slow) to Channel B (fast).
1 - First get the trigger to the oscilloscope from the trigger output port of the signal generator.
2 – Generate a 50 MHz tone with +13dBm (1.4 V, if you have more then better) in single cycle burst, do average and record it in REF_A.
3 – At all the frequencies in the freq range:
3.1 - Generate a sinusoidal of one cycle in a burst mode.
3.2 – Calculate the time delta for the frequency delta of the number of cycles for the relation between each signal A (REF_A low frequency and not affected by the scope frequency response) and Signal B (at 50 MHz, 100 MHz, 150, 200, …. 900, 950, 1 GHz )1/4 of Wave. Configure the scope channel skew to go backward in time only the number of cycles in the difference between frequencies ex: 50 Mhz to 100 Mhz or 1 GHz.
3.3 – Measure the time delta( then calculate the phase delta difference) difference between the two tops of the two sinusoids.
3.4 - Record the data.
Best regards,
João Carvalho
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notfaded1 The 2 channel version doesn't have physically the other 2 channels of the 4 channel scope and has only one ADC of 2 G samples /sec so 580 MHz of bandwidth on 2 channels is out of question.
Best regards
João Carvalho
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So can the $999 SDS2102X-Plus be fully upgraded with 4 channels and all features to 500MHz or is this where people are buying the 4 channel version instead of 2 thinking it'll warranty the 4 channel hardware at least again? Also where can I get the best price on these from in the USA where they honor the EEVblog discount?
Thnx,
Bill
Saelig sells them with the blog discount
The difference between 2 and 4 channel is a hardware difference, they dont give you the 2nd adc pair
The lowest retail 4 channel is msrp 1400
Not sure what you mean by warranty but generally if you hack a unit of any brand consider it void
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Saelig sells them with the blog discount
The difference between 2 and 4 channel is a hardware difference, they dont give you the 2nd adc pair
The lowest retail 4 channel is msrp 1400
Not sure what you mean by warranty but generally if you hack a unit of any brand consider it void
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Ah I see now... some other vendors sold a recent scope like this where all 4 channels were there even in the two channel version ala Rigol MSO5072. If you can reverse the hack and have a 4 channel scope then... so it looks you need the SDS2104X Plus then to really get started here with a 4 channel scope that can be "upgraded" fully.
Bill
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So can the $999 SDS2102X-Plus be fully upgraded with 4 channels and all features to 500MHz or is this where people are buying the 4 channel version instead of 2 thinking it'll warranty the 4 channel hardware at least again? Also where can I get the best price on these from in the USA where they honor the EEVblog discount?
Thnx,
Bill
Saelig sells them with the blog discount
The difference between 2 and 4 channel is a hardware difference, they dont give you the 2nd adc pair
The lowest retail 4 channel is msrp 1400
Not sure what you mean by warranty but generally if you hack a unit of any brand consider it void
The 2-channel model only has BNCs for CH1 and CH2 at the front
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Like I said... it looks you need the SDS2104X Plus then to really get started here with a 4 channel scope that can be "upgraded" fully to top model in the family? There aren't any limitations on it are there? Or is it true you need the 350MHz model to be capable of upgrade to 500MHz?
Bill
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Does the Siglent SDS5000X provide more features besides a higher sample rate, sample memory and individual knobs for each input channel?
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With the SDS2104X Plus + Hack you get full options.
Bandwidth confirmed by several forum members with high accuracy signal generators.
Best regards,
João Carvalho
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Does the Siglent SDS5000X provide more features besides a higher sample rate, sample memory and individual knobs for each input channel?
You have to compare the specsheets, here the key features below.
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Does the Siglent SDS5000X provide more features besides a higher sample rate, sample memory and individual knobs for each input channel?
Other HW differences:
Smart system cooling fan.
Active probe support.
10 MHz ref in/out capability
VGA out
1 additional USB A port
AFAIK the UI and SW features will be aligned over time. Right now there are a few small differences in the SW.
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With the SDS2104X Plus + Hack you get full options.
Bandwidth confirmed by several forum members with high accuracy signal generators.
Best regards,
João Carvalho
Thanks João that's exactly what I really wanted to confim. I've got an older Siglent 200MHz scope and really considered that Rigol MSO5k before but held off... I'm kinda used to Siglent design now and these scopes with bigger touch screen and lots of features are looking like a nice upgrade posibility.
Bill
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Has anyone checked to see if they can achieve the claimed 120K wfs/s acquisition rates on this scope ?? The measurements Dave made on the sds5000 scope was somewhat disappointing so I'm just wondering.
Also how fast is the serial decoding ?? Looks a bit sluggish from what I have seen.
Hi,
Waveformupdaterate I´d checked very early, want to recheck this again - But what I´ve measured was ways beyond the claimed rate.
Hope, they gonna fixed that or correcting the spec sheet... ;)
Serial decoding was as fast as on my former rigol 5000 or our ws3024 from lecroy at work, although I couldn´t imagine actually what "fast" really means.
It won´t take seconds until it´s displayed.
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Does the Siglent SDS5000X provide more features besides a higher sample rate, sample memory and individual knobs for each input channel?
Other HW differences:
Smart system cooling fan.
Active probe support.
10 MHz ref in/out capability
VGA out
1 additional USB A port
AFAIK the UI and SW features will be aligned over time. Right now there are a few small differences in the SW.
Wow that's nice but it's a whole different price range scope. A lot more to it granted.
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One of the things this one and even the 5k line is missing.. an hdmi port, at this stage they dont really have an excuse... and a vga connector? :wtf:
I know what they did and it was probly they just got the vga for free using a chip for something else so piped it out... but talk about hokie in 2020..
And yeah, the 100Mhz base model is the same mainboard as the 350Mhz.. its just a marketing stunt saying you cant and only applies to businesses using them. Anyone willing to hack their unit can unlock what is actually a 550Mhz scope at the 3db mark as verified by a number of us now, its still usable a bit past that as well but once you get north of 800-850Mhz i think it was.. forget it and 1Ghz is just a flat line
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Good for Siglent of course the SDS2104X Plus is backordered on saelig. That says a lot right there though. HDMI port is nice but you can remote the screen with remote control to a tablet or any touchscreen device. Theoretically you could put it on a wall sized touch screen but at that resolution I'm not sure you'd want to.
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Good for Siglent of course the SDS2104X Plus is backordered on saelig. That says a lot right there though. HDMI port is nice but you can remote the screen with remote control to a tablet or any touchscreen device.
Siglent NA says it is in stock, so Saelig should have it soon.
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The real scope bandwidth is around the 570 to 580 MHz for 2 channels of the four (anyone of the first pair (1 or 2) and anyone of the second pair (3 or 4)), in this way you will have a 2 G Sample / sec ADC for each channel, and almost a 4 to 1 ratio.
And at 900 MHz you will have a -10dB attenuation on the signal.
I didn’t try high frequencies, because I don’t have any signal source so high, but one forum member said that for a 1 GHz signal at +13dB (1.4 V) sometimes didn’t a appeared reliably, so it sometimes appear, and he said that it must have a -20dB or more attenuation at 1GHz.
What I would like is that someone with a high frequency (1 GHz) and high accuracy single channel signal generator could characterize this scope front end in terms of amplitude and phase the frequency response of the scope. I propose a method a possible method in my previous posts and a reason to do it.
Best regards,
João Carvalho
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HDMI port is nice but you can remote the screen with remote control to a tablet or any touchscreen device.
Yepp, therefore I didn´t miss a monitor output and the screen is big enough.
Funny thing is the vga output on the 5K model.
None got a monitor with vga input in these days...
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The real scope bandwidth is around the 570 to 580 MHz for 2 channels of the four (anyone of the first pair (1 or 2) and anyone of the second pair (3 or 4)), in this way you will have a 2 G Sample / sec ADC for each channel, and almost a 4 to 1 ratio.
And at 900 MHz you will have a -10dB attenuation on the signal.
I didn’t try high frequencies, because I don’t have any signal source so high, but one forum member said that for a 1 GHz signal at +13dB (1.4 V) sometimes didn’t a appeared reliably, so it sometimes appear, and he said that it must have a -20dB or more attenuation at 1GHz.
What I would like is that someone with a high frequency (1 GHz) and high accuracy single channel signal generator could characterize this scope front end in terms of amplitude and phase the frequency response of the scope. I propose a method a possible method in my previous posts and a reason to do it.
Best regards,
João Carvalho
You can work with a lot of attenuation, but still a nice sinewave up to 900MHz. When you jump to 1GHz the signal gets distorted and biased to the positive side
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Would like to measure the bandwith of my siglent too, like user KeBeNe did - with a sweep and averaging FFT.
But only for this measure buying an rf-generator with at least 1ghz.... :(
There are a lot of cheap chinese rf-generators (one pcb solution) on the market, but I think it wouldn´t fit for this, right ?
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Good for Siglent of course the SDS2104X Plus is backordered on saelig. That says a lot right there though. HDMI port is nice but you can remote the screen with remote control to a tablet or any touchscreen device. Theoretically you could put it on a wall sized touch screen but at that resolution I'm not sure you'd want to.
Shhhh... i also got a 50" 4k on this computer.. ;p
Yeah its been backordered in the states for awhile, the best i could tell you to actually do is to order from batronix in germany and import one, its how i got mine, they also do a forum discount if you ask and there is no tariff with how they coded it and paid dhl express worldwide.. i still came out better than msrp with free shipping but effectively no discount
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2000X-plus.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2000X-plus.html)
Or you can order from siglent direct, they have restocked but no discount and make you pay for shipping..
https://siglentna.com/product/sds2104x-plus/ (https://siglentna.com/product/sds2104x-plus/)
You might want to just call up saelig and see what the backorder wait time is at, if siglent's na office here in ohio has more stock they should soon as well i'd think
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Would like to measure the bandwith of my siglent too, like user KeBeNe did - with a sweep and averaging FFT.
But only for this measure buying an rf-generator with at least 1ghz.... :(
There are a lot of cheap chinese rf-generators (one pcb solution) on the market, but I think it wouldn´t fit for this, right ?
Buy a SSA3k+
Comes with free rf generator to 3.2GHz ;)
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Hehehehe…. ;)
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Yeah its been backordered in the states for awhile, the best i could tell you to actually do is to order from batronix in germany and import one, its how i got mine
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2000X-plus.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2000X-plus.html)
Me too, they got it in stock so they were my solution instead of welectron, which I normally prefer for siglent goods.
"Shame" on both, batronix and welectron:
They didn´t offer the deskew fixture, so I must order it from siglent.eu .
And still waiting for a shipping confirmation…
If welectron/batronix would offer this, I would get it inbetween 48hrs..
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Would like to measure the bandwith of my siglent too, like user KeBeNe did - with a sweep and averaging FFT.
But only for this measure buying an rf-generator with at least 1ghz.... :(
There are a lot of cheap chinese rf-generators (one pcb solution) on the market, but I think it wouldn´t fit for this, right ?
Buy a SSA3k+
Comes with free rf generator to 3.2GHz ;)
Not adequate for accurate checks of DSO front end frequency response due to it's (un)flatness spec:
Output flatness +/-3 dB
Not unusual for a TG as Normalise corrects for it. ;)
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Does the Siglent SDS5000X provide more features besides a higher sample rate, sample memory and individual knobs for each input channel?
Other HW differences:
Smart system cooling fan.
Active probe support.
10 MHz ref in/out capability
VGA out
1 additional USB A port
AFAIK the UI and SW features will be aligned over time. Right now there are a few small differences in the SW.
Wow that's nice but it's a whole different price range scope. A lot more to it granted.
Yes, in another league but 2kX Plus is still a very nice DSO.
Apart from the slightly different front panel layout of 2kX Plus (better IMHO) you can jump from one to the other almost seamlessly.
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The 5K got averaging and eres mode hardware based, where they are software based in the 2K+(first time for a siglent scope afaik) - Can´t remember it clear, but some say, that software solution got it´s benefits against.
Really ?
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Would like to measure the bandwith of my siglent too, like user KeBeNe did - with a sweep and averaging FFT.
But only for this measure buying an rf-generator with at least 1ghz.... :(
There are a lot of cheap chinese rf-generators (one pcb solution) on the market, but I think it wouldn´t fit for this, right ?
Buy a SSA3k+
Comes with free rf generator to 3.2GHz ;)
Not adequate for accurate checks of DSO front end frequency response due to it's (un)flatness spec:
Output flatness +/-3 dB
Not unusual for a TG as Normalise corrects for it. ;)
Thats why i didnt do it as a sweep :P Works fine as a poor mans rf gen
I suppose you could dump the normalization data to exportable file though... hmmm
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Yeah its been backordered in the states for awhile, the best i could tell you to actually do is to order from batronix in germany and import one, its how i got mine
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2000X-plus.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2000X-plus.html)
Me too, they got it in stock so they were my solution instead of welectron, which I normally prefer for siglent goods.
"Shame" on both, batronix and welectron:
They didn´t offer the deskew fixture, so I must order it from siglent.eu .
And still waiting for a shipping confirmation…
If welectron/batronix would offer this, I would get it inbetween 48hrs..
Jez really? I'm itching to buy that thing and was tempted to pm you and ask if you reviewed it yet.. x_x
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It´s getting "better" :
A few days ago, I´ve used the "online chat" to ask them, when will my already payed item arrives…
Positive thing, I got immediately an answer.
Next week, in this case this week…
Do I now get an update of my order status ? No…
Tomorrow we´ll have wednesday, I don´t think I´ll got it in this week. :(
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Does the Siglent SDS5000X provide more features besides a higher sample rate, sample memory and individual knobs for each input channel?
Other HW differences:
Smart system cooling fan.
Active probe support.
10 MHz ref in/out capability
VGA out
1 additional USB A port
There are a few more important differences between the SDS2000X+ and the SDS5000X. Only the SDS2000X+ has 10bit mode (limited to 100MHz) and an internal waveform generator. But the 5000X has averaging and ERES in HW as acquisition feature while ERES is a math function on the SDS2000X+ (slowish and limited to two channels). Also only the SDS5000X has Nth edge trigger and two channel triggers like qualified, delay and setup/hold. Plus, only the 5000X comes with proper probes (only the SDS2354X does, but it costs nearly as much as the SDS5034X). Not so important in the light of certain scripts, but also only the SDS5000X currently comes with all SW options for free (than again, you still need the digital probes and the external USB AWG to use the according features).
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so only the SDS5000X has Nth edge trigger and two channel triggers like qualified, delay and setup/hold.
The trigger difference would be only an update far away to be the same....
Hardware-based eres and averaging and mask test…..that should be understood, what the price difference concerns.
Why spending 2k bucks more when you already could get it with a sds2k+...
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Doesn't the Logic OR trigger allow triggering on multiple channels ? :-//
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It´s getting "better" :
A few days ago, I´ve used the "online chat" to ask them, when will my already payed item arrives…
Positive thing, I got immediately an answer.
Next week, in this case this week…
Do I now get an update of my order status ? No…
Tomorrow we´ll have wednesday, I don´t think I´ll got it in this week. :(
that sucks...
sad thing is i could order it and have it tomorrow direct.. they have them stocked at the NA HQ
They did that with my seemingly rare bench meter with the scan card.. its annoying they dont let their distributors drop ship that i know of
There are a few more important differences between the SDS2000X+ and the SDS5000X. Only the SDS2000X+ has 10bit mode (limited to 100MHz) and an internal waveform generator. But the 5000X has averaging and ERES in HW as acquisition feature while ERES is a math function on the SDS2000X+ (slowish and limited to two channels). Also only the SDS5000X has Nth edge trigger and two channel triggers like qualified, delay and setup/hold. Plus, only the 5000X comes with proper probes (only the SDS2354X does, but it costs nearly as much as the SDS5034X). Not so important in the light of certain scripts, but also only the SDS5000X currently comes with all SW options for free (than again, you still need the digital probes and the external USB AWG to use the according features).
I wish I had a better quad set of probes, you at least get their 200MHz rated set though with the 100MHz scope
I do got one special rf probe with built in dc blocking thats completely flat through 4GHz+, been wondering how well it would work on a normal scope and not a SSA
I certainly can be wrong, because I never had a spectrum analyzer with a tracking generator, but for amplitude you could measure the correct amplitude with the spectrum analyzer and then connect to the scope and measure the amplitude attenuation with it. Point-by-point. Then normalize in Excel. But that only solves half of the problem, the “easy part”.
After thinking a little bit about the problem I taught of a simple method for measuring the phase shift of the scope at each frequency. But to get it to work you need a single channel signal generator, with a output clock or output trigger connected to the input trigger of the scope, and the signal generator must generate a single cycle sinusoidal burst. The scope will measure a low frequency signal in REF_A in terms of time delta against a varying high frequency signal. Do some averages, and you must use the coursers to compare the 1/4 wave top’s. You have to correct for the fact that you are comparing the phase of two different frequency signals. The logic is that the low frequency signal will be residually affected by the scope transfer function when compared to the high frequency signal, so you can use it as a reference for phase measurements.
Best regards,
João Carvalho
Point to point is what i did to just wing it, wasnt going for hyper accuracy
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The probe discussion we got already months ago here.
Fact is, as I bought the basic 4-ch model from rigol, the 5074 ( 70 (!!) Mhz), four 350Mhz probes were included.
Just in case you will upgrade it to 350mhz.
Then I bought the basic 4-ch model from siglent, the sds2104x+.
It costs more than 300 bucks than the rigol 5074 - Did I get the probes for 350/500 Mhz, just in case I will upgrade it to this ?
No, what you get are maximum simple probes - When you upgrade your model, regardless about the way to do it, you must pay extra for proper fitting probes - Go and search for 350/500mhz probes, what they costs…
This is a little bit lame.
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The trigger difference would be only an update far away to be the same....
Well, the scopes kinda use the same SW and the triggers are not new in the SDS5000X, so I guess this won't happen. I would also think that the multi-channel triggers like qualified trigger could be limited by HW.
Doesn't the Logic OR trigger allow triggering on multiple channels ? :-//
But that's not the same as a qualified trigger that triggers after an event on channel A followed by an event on channel B. The bigger LeCroys can cascade multiple events on different channels but at least the SDS5000X inherited the simpler two channel triggers from the WS3000.
I wish I had a better quad set of probes, you at least get their 200MHz rated set though with the 100MHz scope
Bandwidth isn't my only concern. I also understand that the probes delivered with the 100MHz and 200MHz models are cheapish switchable 1x/10x probes that don't even support probe detection though the scope does.
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Doesn't the Logic OR trigger allow triggering on multiple channels ? :-//
But that's not the same as a qualified trigger that triggers after an event on channel A followed by an event on channel B. The bigger LeCroys can cascade multiple events on different channels but at least the SDS5000X inherited the simpler two channel triggers from the WS3000.
Dunno, haven't tried it.
Might be an interesting exercise along with a Zone and maybe Gate for someone that has one....I don't ATM. :(
I wish I had a better quad set of probes, you at least get their 200MHz rated set though with the 100MHz scope
Bandwidth isn't my only concern. I also understand that the probes delivered with the 100MHz and 200MHz models are cheapish switchable 1x/10x probes that don't even support probe detection though the scope does.
Yep been meaning to ask what probes come with the SDS2204X Plus but keeps skipping my mind. |O
Hopefully it's the nice and bit cheaper 300 MHz 10x SP2030A.
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Doesn't the Logic OR trigger allow triggering on multiple channels ? :-//
But that's not the same as a qualified trigger that triggers after an event on channel A followed by an event on channel B. The bigger LeCroys can cascade multiple events on different channels but at least the SDS5000X inherited the simpler two channel triggers from the WS3000.
Dunno, haven't tried it.
Might be an interesting exercise along with a Zone and maybe Gate for someone that has one....I don't ATM. :(
I wish I had a better quad set of probes, you at least get their 200MHz rated set though with the 100MHz scope
Bandwidth isn't my only concern. I also understand that the probes delivered with the 100MHz and 200MHz models are cheapish switchable 1x/10x probes that don't even support probe detection though the scope does.
Yep been meaning to ask what probes come with the SDS2204X Plus but keeps skipping my mind. |O
Hopefully it's the nice and bit cheaper 300 MHz 10x SP2030A.
You get the full shaft... PP215, same as the 100MHz less the datasheet is wrong
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You get the full shaft... PP215, same as the 100MHz less the datasheet is wrong
Yep, that's what I meant when I said that only the SDS2354X+ comes with proper probes, namely SP2035A just as the SDS5024X. All lower models come with the PP215 according to the datasheet.
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Just looked up the 10x 300 MHz SP2030A probe, same as is shipped with the older 300 MHz SDS2304X and auto sense.
These are $59ea vs $27 for PP215 200 MHz 10x/1x probes.
All round nicer more compact probe with the compensation adjustment in the BNC end not on the probe.
I had these with my SDS2304X......sold and replaced with SDS5054X.
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It's somewhat fascinating that the SP2035A costs three times as much as the SP2030A where the only difference is a marginally better rise time (1ns instead of 1.15ns) at the cost of half the voltage rating (300V CAT II instead of 600V without CAT specification). The capacitance and everything else seems to be identical.
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I rescind every bitchy comment i have made about zooming on a siglent... dave posted another video and caused me to realize something :palm:
nctnico... i give you a siglent that can zoom in AND out
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I rescind every bitchy comment i have made about zooming on a siglent... dave posted another video and caused me to realize something :palm:
nctnico... i give you a siglent that can zoom in AND out
And vertically. ;)
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I rescind every bitchy comment i have made about zooming on a siglent... dave posted another video and caused me to realize something :palm:
nctnico... i give you a siglent that can zoom in AND out
And vertically. ;)
Yeah.. its crazy that trigger mode with large memory actually works the way you would think it should... its just chinese setting it up ass backwards and not being automatic like you would find on everyone else lol
I do wish the refresh rate was faster... it really bogs down this 2k+ with 2 channels on and all digital io im only getting about 4-5 frames a second
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I rescind every bitchy comment i have made about zooming on a siglent... dave posted another video and caused me to realize something :palm:
nctnico... i give you a siglent that can zoom in AND out
And vertically. ;)
Yeah.. its crazy that trigger mode with large memory actually works the way you would think it should... its just chinese setting it up ass backwards and not being automatic like you would find on everyone else lol
I do wish the refresh rate was faster... it really bogs down this 2k+ with 2 channels on and all digital io im only getting about 4-5 frames a second
Yes pumping 200M continually through the system does impact on display refresh however wind the memory depth down to something like most other DSO's should improve things.
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I rescind every bitchy comment i have made about zooming on a siglent... dave posted another video and caused me to realize something :palm:
nctnico... i give you a siglent that can zoom in AND out
But you need zoom mode for that. Look how cramped the display gets and the information from the zoom window doesn't add anything because you can't even see what is there.
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Report a simple way to check the Waveform update rate.
The key is that 2000X+ will always buffer and updating the history frames in backstage, access the buffered frames at any time in History mode.Open the frame list on history menu, and set the Time Type to Delta T, the list shows the Delta T bettewn two wave frames.
I made some quick test, it basically consistent with the performance given in datasheet.
Normal Acquire, wfms/sec,
Vector Dot
20nS 20k 125-142k
50nS 20k 125-142k
100nS 20k 71.5k
200nS 15k 15k
500nS 10k 10k
1uS 7.1k 7.1k
Sequence mode, wfms/sec,
Vector Dot
20nS 333-500k 333-500k
50nS 333-500k 333-500k
100nS 250k 250k
200nS 200k 200k
500nS 125k 125k
1uS 71k 71k
HERE comes the interesting part, ALL 4channels ON, 10bits, Vector line... None of these will slowdown the waveform update rate in Sequence mode. In Normal Acquire, 10bits will still not affect the update rate, that's fairly good. I think I can use the 10bits in most cases without worrying about missing important waveforms :popcorn: Almost like a real 10bits ADC, of course within 100Mhz.
I don't do more test on larger timebases, which the waveform update rate is completely limited by the huge time length of single frame, and does very little to do with the performance of oscilloscope itself. if I'm wrong about this, please tell me.
The screenshots are in chinese i forgot to switch to english UI before save, sorry for that
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A little more, I can confirm that the 2074X+ is still the same HW, very same front end than a top 2504X+ >:D
If you can buy the 2074X+ with around 990USD, it's the Best value for money :-+ Although it will comes with a lowest 70MHz probe, I don't think anyone will care that anymore.
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A little more, I can confirm that the 2074X+ is still the same HW, very same front end than a top 2504X+ >:D
If you can buy the 2074X+ with around 990USD, it's the Best value for money :-+ Although it will comes with a lowest 70MHz probe, I don't think anyone will care that anymore.
The BIG problem is that 2074X+ is not available outside China!
If not, that would definitely be a killer. (the probes... :blah:)
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The BIG problem is that 2074X+ is not available outside China!
If not, that would definitely be a killer. (the probes... :blah:)
Yes, I almost got pissed off when I opened the probe box, but considering the money I spent on it, I actually won’t complain anything.
Think I need to buy some NOS keysight N2843A for it :D
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Why the hell they don't sell the 2074X Plus outside China?
Rigol won't sell anything anymore at that price.
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Why the hell they don't sell the 2074X Plus outside China?
Rigol won't sell anything anymore at that price.
If look from Siglent's perspective, I can understand why they did that. There are many low-cost equipment in the Chinese market, including Rigol of course. Now Rigol is still much stronger than siglent, in terms of sales volume. Siglent must provide more cost-effective instruments than competitors to win more market share with new SDS2000X+, they must do this in china.
But outside, The 2104X+ is very enough to play like a killer. even Siglent sells it at about 1400USD outside, I believe it doesn't have much profit on it.
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Why the hell they don't sell the 2074X Plus outside China?
Rigol won't sell anything anymore at that price.
If look from Siglent's perspective, I can understand why they did that. There are many low-cost equipment in the Chinese market, including Rigol of course. Now Rigol is still much stronger than siglent, in terms of sales volume. Siglent must provide more cost-effective instruments than competitors to win more market share with new SDS2000X+, they must do this in china.
But outside, The 2104X+ is very enough to play like a killer. even Siglent sells it at about 1400USD outside, I believe it doesn't have much profit on it.
I honestly don't know the sales volume nor how big is Siglent or Rigol ( and I don't know anything about marketing )
It is just that outside China, you have to add about 35 to 50% more if you want the SDS2104X instead of the MSO5072 or MSO5074.
if Siglent is able to make money on the 2074X Plus at 999$ in China, they could sell tons of it outside and increase their margins and profits.
From my point of view, I can understand someone who hesitates between the Rigol and the Siglent because of the price difference but at 999$....
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I rescind every bitchy comment i have made about zooming on a siglent... dave posted another video and caused me to realize something :palm:
nctnico... i give you a siglent that can zoom in AND out
But you need zoom mode for that. Look how cramped the display gets and the information from the zoom window doesn't add anything because you can't even see what is there.
Yeah, dont really like their choice to shrink the entire screen down like that when you got a lot up.. would be nice if it was able to be changed back and forth with a smaller slider bar, im now using it for relative position which is what it is good for.. or add another option to hide it completely
Some others are still hating on it in the other thread because it isnt natively setup with how its usually been done before by the industry but functional equivalency is still equivalent and gets the job done.. so really its just now a function of preference like most other scope options and to each his own.. i dont think its really that hard to setup either, if it wasnt for the big ass bar there would be no way to tell one mode from the other
It always bugged me thinking that they wouldnt have that in there at all and glad to have found it at least on the 2k+, make it a lot less pain in the ass and more useful
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I just found out how much the ..
SPL2016 16 Digital Channel Logic Probe for SDS2000X Series retail for :palm:
Is there an in-depth review OR teardown on these puppies ??
Just curious why such a premium price :-\
Are there any 3rd party devices that can be used instead ...
Just curious at your personal experience with using the SDS2000X Series for logic analysis - or should I stay clear and get some dedicated kit ???
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I just found out how much the ..
SPL2016 16 Digital Channel Logic Probe for SDS2000X Series retail for :palm:
Is there an in-depth review OR teardown on these puppies ??
Just curious why such a premium price :-\
Are there any 3rd party devices that can be used instead ...
Just curious at your personal experience with using the SDS2000X Series for logic analysis - or should I stay clear and get some dedicated kit ???
User TK makes cheaper custom ones
Here are some pics
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3079002/#msg3079002 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3079002/#msg3079002)
And yeah they price gouge the logic probe, i bought one before TK put that up, it does work nicely and the clips are grade A so cant really complain other than price
Logic decode and trigger is a lot of what i do, i like the overlay ability and the decode options, check out the pic and you will see my can data being decoded on the very bottom bars
The biggest feature but is common to all decoding scopes... being able to align analog events to digital events
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Siglent deskew fixure :
Still the delivery status is on "Paid"....after 11days I´ve payed directly for this.
Siglent.eu ? Never more...
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Siglent deskew fixure :
Still the delivery status is on "Paid"....after 11days I´ve payed directly for this.
Siglent.eu ? Never more...
I bit the bullet and ordered from saelig two days ago and now in the same boat.. i do like the sales lady there.. she let me know its a siglent issue and they are backed up on orders atm
It will take them a few weeks to send saelig my parts and then saelig send them to me... my product is less than a 1 hour drive from me in a warehouse lol
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I just found out how much the ..
SPL2016 16 Digital Channel Logic Probe for SDS2000X Series retail for :palm:
Is there an in-depth review OR teardown on these puppies ??
Just curious why such a premium price :-\
Are there any 3rd party devices that can be used instead ...
Just curious at your personal experience with using the SDS2000X Series for logic analysis - or should I stay clear and get some dedicated kit ???
This one I have designed for personal use in my HAM-Radio shack / lab.
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
It is basicly a small size direct adapter from standard dupond clamps to siglent edge-connetor.
Design goals:
- fully compatible to original probe
- less expensive
- small form factor
- very low input capacitance
- very high channel uniformity
- mimimzed crosstalk between channels
Realization:
- 10:1 fully compensated voltage divider
- impedance controlled layout
- precision CNC milled housing shells (POM)
- edge connector design according to socket-manufactor datasheet
- input impedance 100k \$\Omega\$ | 2pF
- channel skew difference <= 0.3% FSmax
- gain tolerance <= 1%
This direct adapter approch has it's pro's and con's.
Pro:
- lower cost (no expensive special ribbon coax cable)
- much lower input capacitance (2pF against 18pF)
Con:
- DUT should be located relativly close to scope to avoid cross coupling on too long clamp wires
[attach=3]
Progress:
I am testing the first prototype at the moment. So far with very satisfying results.
Digital signals from 1Vpp to 20Vpp are reproduced very accurate, measurements of period und pulswidth are on par with generator setting.
Analog signals are discriminated with low jitter regardless of frequency and risetime, you can clearly measure the hysteresys of the scope internal comparators.
Next tests will be the effect of considerable longer clamp cables on crosscoupling and ringing with hight slewrate pulses (20Vpp / 800ps), stay tuned...
PS: I think I could convince my CEO to produce a small batch at a reasonable prize.
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Hello DL2XY,
Depending on the price and if the cables can be a little longer without degrading to much the specs, I’m very interested.
Thank you,
Best regards,
João Carvalho
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The cables not being in close vicinity to each other, crosscoupling might not be an issue, but the long signal return loop somehow bothers me.
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But the 2074 is hackable to 500mhz as the 2104??
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But the 2074 is hackable to 500mhz as the 2104??
More than likely
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2074 ?!
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2074 ?!
Fabled China only version.. the codes exist for it
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China only...then it´s fully uninteresting in several ways.
Additional, I can´t get the 70 Mhz thing all chinese manufactors got this in their portfolio.
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Additional, I can´t get the 70 Mhz thing all chinese manufactors got this in their portfolio.
It's an astronomical constant. ::)
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Additional, I can´t get the 70 Mhz thing all chinese manufactors got this in their portfolio.
It's an astronomical constant. ::)
lol
Martin any news on the deskew? Nothing here.. zzz
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But the 2074 is hackable to 500mhz as the 2104??
More than likely
Did you miss this from Tankj ?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3093489/#msg3093489 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3093489/#msg3093489)
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Martin any news on the deskew?
Wait….look for the Status....
No..nothing new... :--
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But the 2074 is hackable to 500mhz as the 2104??
More than likely
Did you miss this from Tankj ?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3093489/#msg3093489 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3093489/#msg3093489)
Yeah i didnt see him sneak in a comment :P
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But the 2074 is hackable to 500mhz as the 2104??
More than likely
Did you miss this from Tankj ?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3093489/#msg3093489 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3093489/#msg3093489)
Yeah i didnt see him sneak in a comment :P
Add his flag to what he said and put 2+2 together. ;)
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Using a good and cheap SDR RX and TX (transmitter), the Analog Devices PlutoSDR it costs on Mouser 133 euros.
Brilliant device - worth every euro :-+
- did the TXO mod
- using GNURadio (still learning) - can make virtually any RF output & modulation - from 70MHz up to 6GHZ
- great companion to any SSA :)
-
It is basicly a small size direct adapter from standard dupond clamps to siglent edge-connetor.
Design goals:
- fully compatible to original probe
- less expensive
- small form factor
- very low input capacitance
- very high channel uniformity
- mimimzed crosstalk between channels
Realization:
- 10:1 fully compensated voltage divider
- impedance controlled layout
- precision CNC milled housing shells (POM)
- edge connector design according to socket-manufactor datasheet
- input impedance 100k \$\Omega\$ | 2pF
- channel skew difference <= 0.3% FSmax
- gain tolerance <= 1%
This direct adapter approch has it's pro's and con's.
Pro:
- lower cost (no expensive special ribbon coax cable)
- much lower input capacitance (2pF against 18pF)
Con:
- DUT should be located relativly close to scope to avoid cross coupling on too long clamp wires
PS: I think I could convince my CEO to produce a small batch at a reasonable prize.
This is Great
Thank You for sharing :)
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Hello noreply,
I have seen in this vídeo that with some programs it can go down to 46 MHz.
“Here we take a look at the ADALM-PLUTO frequency expansion modification to give us 70 MHz through to 6GHz. Mine actually went as low as 46MHz!!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1jIAh6fG_A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1jIAh6fG_A)
Best regards,
João Carvalho
Please don't get this in a wrong way, but I would suggest you should move this discussion of yours to a separate topic. It is way off topic here, and interesting enough to deserve separate topic.
Regards,
Sinisa
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Frequency response is demonstrated in reply #34:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2787168/#msg2787168 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2787168/#msg2787168)
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Thank you very much tautech,
I have read literally, all the posts of this thread in a long long night without sleep and that was the reason I bought this scope.
I didn’t remember that a FFT graph in the range from 0 Hz to 1 GHz for this scope, taken with a high precision signal generator was in one of the posts.
With that I can now start doing my “homework”!
Buy the PlutoSDR and do my part by writing all the needed code for Pluto to generate the “cooked” waveforms, for connecting to the scope to retrieve the data, for the final program and for the mathematical validation of the code of the FDE – Frequency Domain Equalizer.
When the open source program is finished, I will post a link for it here to the github project and try to validate all the procedure and results with the lower bandwidth of 20 MHz 8 bits (up to 40 MHz) and up to 120MHz in the 10 bit mode. If that works, the community can then confirm if it works well, all the way up to 950 MHz. My target platforms will be Linux and Windows, but it will be made in Python and maybe a bit of C so in principal it will also work for MAC.
Thank you very much, the ball and the hot plate is on my side now.
Best regards,
João Carvalho
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I'd only call it border line off topic because its still relevant with hardly any of us have a 5k usd rf generator to qualify probes and hardware we are tinkering with..
That said they could all be copied to a new post / thread as well as its a very interesting topic in its own right.. i will only be buying this product because it was brought up here and Joao's excellent descriptions
-
Siglent deskew fixure :
Still the delivery status is on "Paid"....after 11days I´ve payed directly for this.
Siglent.eu ? Never more...
Status changed, wo-hoo..
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Hello,
Following the advice of the members I created a new thread for the discussions that I have being making about the Siglent SDS2104-X Plus and called it a more generic name to pass the message that it could be also useful to other scopes models and brands:
Topic: Oscilloscope frequency response correction program
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-frequency-response-correction-program/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-frequency-response-correction-program/)
I put it under Test Equipment.
Two posts had there sequence changed in the interest of a more easy and logical understanding of what I’m suggesting.
The following post is new:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-frequency-response-correction-program/msg3095747/#msg3095747 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-frequency-response-correction-program/msg3095747/#msg3095747)
Best regards,
João Carvalho
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I'd only call it border line off topic because its still relevant with hardly any of us have a 5k usd rf generator to qualify probes and hardware we are tinkering with..
Yet some of us do. :P
Mine goes to 3.2 GHz and I guess Performa01 that did these has something similar:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/?action=dlattach;attach=397961)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/?action=dlattach;attach=397963)
From:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665)
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Following the advice of the members I created a new thread for the discussions that I have being making about the Siglent SDS2104-X Plus and called it a more generic name to pass the message that it could be also useful to other scopes models and brands:
Nicely done! Now you can remove those msgs from this thread.
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TV84, done.
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Hello DL2XY,
Depending on the price and if the cables can be a little longer without degrading to much the specs, I’m very interested.
Thank you,
Best regards,
João Carvalho
Hello Joáu,
thank you asking for wire length, it realy brought me a step further.
I did severe testing on long wires and run indeed in some weird effects as resonancies at unexpected (lower) frequenzies / higher pulslengths.
So i did some simulations and tracked down the problems to be unlimited bandwith due to full compensation und ringing of the wires due to impedance mismatch.
So i added a damping element which can be optimized to to the desired wire length so the overshoot/ringing can be reduced to <5% .
Input impedance is still 100k \$\Omega\$|2pF, but bandwidth will be degraded in relation to required wirelength.
I first calculated a solution for 80cm and tested with 85cm clamp wires. I works perfectly with no crosstalk or inter-symbol glitches. Bandwith is 125Mhz sine, minimum detectable pulswidth is about 8ns. Wires are still bound together as delivered as ribbon-cable, so very close together wich should be worst case.
I expect the lenght / bandwidth relationship as follows:
Length BW MDP
------------------------------
1m 100Mhz 10ns
0.5m 200Mhz 5ns
0.25m 400Mhz 2.5ns
These values may differ slightly since optimation proccess is quite complex. You cannot use an analog probe to meausure damping, it´s input capacitance is way too high.
So you have to try a value, check the effect at various frequencies and levels via threshold variation and iterate to a solution.
Keep in mind that digital samplerate is only 500MS/s, so edge jitter is 2ns and pulswidth jitter is 4ns peak-peak anyway.
Regards,
Walter
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Hello,
I made a Python program to extract the amplitude attenuation data from the FFT scope screenshot posted by Performa 01 from 0 Hz to 1 GHz.
See the following post for details:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-frequency-response-correction-program/msg3097328/#msg3097328 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-frequency-response-correction-program/msg3097328/#msg3097328)
It uses interpolation to get the “Inter-pixel” point value and I extracted 3 table CSV files.
-Attenuation data extracted directly from the image with the range 0 Hz to 1 GHz (no interpolation).
-Attenuation data interpolated from 0 Hz to 1 GHz in steps of 10 MHz.
-Attenuation data interpolated from 0 Hz to 1 GHz in steps of 1MHz.
The github project page is this
https://github.com/joaocarvalhoopen/Oscilloscope_frequency_response_correction_program (https://github.com/joaocarvalhoopen/Oscilloscope_frequency_response_correction_program)
Best regards,
João Nuno Carvalho
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I think I have found a little bug in the firmware of the scope, it’s just a simple thing, the drawing of the left Y axis of the FFT mode that it is doesn’t make a straight vertical line, the X pixel point at the bottom is correct but at upper part is one pixel to the right.
Note: From my measurements, I don’t think that this affects the plotted graph, as my measurements are spot on :) with the scope buffer markers data and I extracted the data from the graph as if the Y axis as no bias and like it was a straight line.
I used here as an example of the zoomed image that I have been studying in the last days from EEVBlog member Performa01.
You can easylly see that it isn't a straight vertical line, it is one pixel desaligned :)
The original image was posted here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2787168/#msg2787168 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2787168/#msg2787168)
Best regards,
João Nuno Carvalho
-
Hi all,
First post here.
I just got my SDS2000X Plus. Since my previous oscilloscope was the venerable RIGOL DS1052E I am still numb from how fast this thing is. :o
Here's a short video of the scope in XY mode:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNoSyZr9uTA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNoSyZr9uTA)
-
Martin any news on the deskew?
Wait….look for the Status....
No..nothing new... :--
Mine will be here Thursday along with siglent sma calls for my sva ^^ just got shipping notice from ups
-
Siglent deskew fixure :
Still the delivery status is on "Paid"....after 11days I´ve payed directly for this.
Siglent.eu ? Never more...
Status changed, wo-hoo..
They kidding me.... >:(
Still nothing in my hands, very annoying. :--
-
Siglent deskew fixure :
Still the delivery status is on "Paid"....after 11days I´ve payed directly for this.
Siglent.eu ? Never more...
Status changed, wo-hoo..
They kidding me.... >:(
Still nothing in my hands, very annoying. :--
wow they suck...
Mine came in a few hours ago, its a multi layer board
-
You ordered it later and got it earlier….Thank you siglent.eu.... :(
-
the chips are 427H-LM555CM & 0402-BE7612
-
Mine came in a few hours ago, its a multi layer board
Does this mean a review is comming soon :P
-
You ordered it later and got it earlier….Thank you siglent.eu.... :(
Yeah you got the shaft from the euros.. could probly had it faster it you just had me order it from siglent na hq and then ship it to you the next day lol
You should file a formal complaint
Mine came in a few hours ago, its a multi layer board
Does this mean a review is comming soon :P
Not from me.. i dont even have time to fuss with it sadly atm
-
LM555CM
The good old timer... ;D
-
Not from me.. i dont even have time to fuss with it sadly atm
I would do, if I at last could do it... :( ::)
-
LM555CM
The good old timer... ;D
Yeah i just chuckled as soon as i saw the triple 5 in there
-
So you have risetime of circa 100ns on voltage output?
-
I still wonder about the timebase accuracy of the sds2k+.
1ppm and 3.5 ppm aging over 10yrs.
Just líke the sds5k, what got the lecroy ws4000 ? 2.5ppm.., the ws3kz 10ppm, our hdo6K 2.5ppm...our wr9k 1.5 ppm....
-
I still wonder about the timebase accuracy of the sds2k+.
1ppm and 3.5 ppm aging over 10yrs.
Just líke the sds5k, what got the lecroy ws4000 ? 2.5ppm.., the ws3kz 10ppm, our hdo6K 2.5ppm...our wr9k 1.5 ppm....
You think they are "overly optimistic"?? It's not that hard, my TTi TF930 counter is better than that.
I was always wondering why nowadays scopes have such a bad stability. Very nice TCXOs are very inexpensive today..
-
The only thing which is explainable to me is, that the timebase accuracy is not a serious point for oscilloscopes.
-
The only thing which is explainable to me is, that the timebase accuracy is not a serious point for oscilloscopes.
That is true. In the end an oscilloscope measures between waveforms and the noise from the acquisition system swamps that of the timebase.
-
You think they are "overly optimistic"?? It's not that hard, my TTi TF930 counter is better than that.
Not really. It has a calibration/correction mechanism and is configured at the factory to be within 0,2ppm but it still has a temperature variation of +/-1ppm and ages 1ppm in the first year. They don't even specify anything beyond that. Now it's easy to implement a calibration in a counter, as it's most probably just a correction factor in the software, i.e. you don't actually need a digitally trimmed TCXO unless there is a timebase output - which isn't the case for the TTi TF930 though.
For a scope, such a cheap correction implementation wouldn't work as long as you have a trigger output which is a basic feature that nearly every scope has. So you'd need a (digitally) trimmable time base and I'm not aware that any scope even in the 20k€ range would have this.
Anyway, the time base spec of the SDS2000X+ and SDS5000X is really top notch compared to most competitors. Actually., most scopes <10k€ have a worse spec.
-
You think they are "overly optimistic"?? It's not that hard, my TTi TF930 counter is better than that.
Not really. It has a calibration/correction mechanism and is configured at the factory to be within 0,2ppm but it still has a temperature variation of +/-1ppm and ages 1ppm in the first year. They don't even specify anything beyond that. Now it's easy to implement a calibration in a counter, as it's most probably just a correction factor in the software, i.e. you don't actually need a digitally trimmed TCXO unless there is a timebase output - which isn't the case for the TTi TF930 though.
For a scope, such a cheap correction implementation wouldn't work as long as you have a trigger output which is a basic feature that nearly every scope has. So you'd need a (digitally) trimmable time base and I'm not aware that any scope even in the 20k€ range would have this.
Anyway, the time base spec of the SDS2000X+ and SDS5000X is really top notch compared to most competitors. Actually., most scopes <10k€ have a worse spec.
While technically correct, you are nitpicking a bit... ^-^
I'm talking about order of magnitude.
Keysight MSOX 4000 series (a 20000 USD scope) has: Time base accuracy: ± 10 ppm (Denotes warranted specifications, all others are typical. Specifications are valid after a 30-minute warm-up period and ± 10 °C from firmware calibration).
It is much worse than TF930 (from guaranteed spec, mine is still less than 2ppm from ideal after 5 years, compared to GPSDO at my friends labs few months ago). Also TF930/960 is specified ±1 ppm over full temperature range, not ±10 °C from firmware calibration. And it has digitally trimmable TCXO.
Funny thing, cheaper MSOX3000T series is much better (and more detailed specification): Time base accuracy 1 ±1.6 ppm + aging factor (1st year: ±0.5 ppm, 2nd year: ±0.7 ppm, 5 years: ±1.5 ppm, 10 years: ±2.0 ppm) (Denotes warranted specifications, all others are typical. Specifications are valid after a 30-minute warm-up period and ± 10 °C from firmware calibration).
Speaking with some people who should know, it was hinted that is because 4000 has 10 MHz ref in, you can connect outside reference if needed (and you can use it without when not critical), and 3000T doesn't have ref input so they put in tighter oscillator, so they can say, "not ref in input, but hey, it is darn accurate anyways so not really need for it", and also they are marketing built in counter a lot, so they wanted it to be reasonable accuracy...
Reason for this is, like Martin and Nico say, that scopes timebase is not usually important to be that accurate, in low ppm range. Stability is important, but absolute accuracy not so much.
Even those scopes that have External Ref IN, have not so much for absolute accuracy, but for synchronizing separate instruments for time correlation...
Or should I say, for scopes with short memory is not that critical, because of their timing resolution.
With very long memory, it becomes more critical, with sample times that are long enough for problems to show. So for Siglents with 200-250 MPoints of memory, both stability, phase noise and corresponding jitter, and all that crap for timebase, will be more visible than for Keysight with 4 MPoints.
If I was speculating, that is the reason why Siglent put in better oscillator than average.
And on SDS5000X they also wanted to have very good jitter specifications, to enable some measurements and have very good trigger stability.
But really, all of them could (and should) put them in, not because we really need it, but because it is easy and cheap.
Good job Siglent.
-
Did anyone take the trouble to check one of Dave's teardown videos to see what kind of oscillator is in Siglent scopes? A good, stable oscillator usually is not very small and easy to spot.
-
@2N3055
I'm not so sure if I can follow the reasoning about deeper memory needing higher long term accuracy of the timebase. Honestly I actually don't see that direct dependency there.
Anyway, note that the PLL will usually also introduce phase noise and jitter to some degree. Typically, this is worse than that of the actual oscillator.
@nctnico
Why would it be big? We'd not talking about an OCXO here. It's most probably a smallish SMD TCXO withich doesn't look any different from a normal crystal oscillator.
-
@2N3055
I'm not so sure if I can follow the reasoning about deeper memory needing higher long term accuracy of the timebase. Honestly I actually don't see that direct dependency there.
Anyway, note that the PLL will usually also introduce phase noise and jitter to some degree. Typically, this is worse than that of the actual oscillator.
In case of an oscilloscope that won't be the case. Usually there is a high performance PLL in there to get rid of the short term jitter otherwise the jitter introduces too much noise on the sampling clock.
@nctnico
Why would it be big? We'd not talking about an OCXO here. It's most probably a smallish SMD TCXO withich doesn't look any different from a normal crystal oscillator.
Well... a good TCXO is a bit larger than a regular crystal. For example, this one has slightly better specs compared to Siglent's spec for the SDS2000X Plus: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/connor-winfield/DOT050V-010.0M/CW842CT-ND/4726007 (https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/connor-winfield/DOT050V-010.0M/CW842CT-ND/4726007) It is over a cubic cm in size.
-
nctnico, that's a really nice TCXO +-50 ppb, and not very expensive.
Best regards,
Joao Carvalho
-
Did anyone take the trouble to check one of Dave's teardown videos to see what kind of oscillator is in Siglent scopes? A good, stable oscillator usually is not very small and easy to spot.
User the defpom had make some hi-res pics from the board:
http://www.thedefpom.com/randomfiles/Siglent_SDS2104XPlus_High_Res_Photos.zip (http://www.thedefpom.com/randomfiles/Siglent_SDS2104XPlus_High_Res_Photos.zip)
-
Did anyone take the trouble to check one of Dave's teardown videos to see what kind of oscillator is in Siglent scopes? A good, stable oscillator usually is not very small and easy to spot.
User the defpom had make some hi-res pics from the board:
http://www.thedefpom.com/randomfiles/Siglent_SDS2104XPlus_High_Res_Photos.zip (http://www.thedefpom.com/randomfiles/Siglent_SDS2104XPlus_High_Res_Photos.zip)
I took a look at the pictures but couldn't find anything that really stands out as a high quality oscillator. The most likely candidate I can spot is X4 which could be a TCXO or MEMS oscillator (package marked by BOTTA). It seems to be a standard crystal oscillator package but I don't know which exact part it is.
edit: typo
-
I took a look at the pictures but couldn't find anything that really stands out as a high quality oscillator.
Me too.
Maybe it´s on the other side of the pcb…. :-//
-
I took a look at the pictures but couldn't find anything that really stands out as a high quality oscillator.
Me too.
Maybe it´s on the other side of the pcb…. :-//
I never saw one when I had it open... i almost went for pics of the other side but it was too much a pain in the ass to dick around with and threw in the towel
-
Hello everybody,
is there anyone succeeding to provide to the AWG integrated in the scope a user defined waveform? Here I'm trying from a couple of days, but I'm not yet
able to succeed, interfacing the scope to my PC (with Windows 10) both via USB or via LAN (in any case the behavior is the same, with the two interfaceses).
As a first step, I installed in my PC the NI-VISA version 19.5. After that, I tried installing both EasyWave ver.1.01.01.38R1 and EasyWaveX ver.1.1.0.13
(it's not well specified whether EasyWave or EasyWaveX have to be used).
Firstly with EasyWaveX, the SDS2104X Plus is detected as an oscilloscope (of course) and I found no way to send a waveform, since no AWG is detected.
Then, with EasyWave, with both USB and LAN connection, it is possible to send the waveform to the scope, but as soon as the send command is launched,
the program unexpectedly closes, without any message or error. Further, trying to acquire a waveform from the scope, the waveform is correctly received
as a shape, but the values are not correct: the 0V / 300mV squarewave for probe compensation is acquired with levels of about -40mv / 350mV
(not sure of that, but this is happening also acquiring with EasyWaveX).
Browsing the Siglent website, I found the IVI Driver: are they needed or related to this issue? In case they are needed, it's not clear to me how to install them....
Thanks!
Sergio
-
Siglent deskew fixure :
Still the delivery status is on "Paid"....after 11days I´ve payed directly for this.
Siglent.eu ? Never more...
Status changed, wo-hoo..
They kidding me.... >:(
Still nothing in my hands, very annoying. :--
Nearly a month passed by without getting the deskew fixture... :(
One 13th june they set the status to "shipped", nearly a week later they told me, well, we must have a look at our warehouse, because of corona there are troubles, bla-bla....and still letting the status to "shipped" !
Now, on 26th june, the status still be "shipped" without getting anything so far.
Also I wrote them two times to send the item to the adress where I´m working and asked for a confirmation - No reactions, shipping adress is still my private adress.
Poor, really poor from siglenteu.
Wait the next week and then I want my money back, ordering the fixure somewhere else.
Never ever, this dealer will be on my blacklist.
-
Never ever, this dealer will be on my blacklist.
No surprise there. I would have warned you if you posted your intention to order from them... OTOH if the item really is shipped then they can't change the address afterwards. At most it may be possible to have it delivered at a parcel shop / pick-up spot.
-
I "talked" to them via the online live chat, asked them, which deliver company they used to ship.
As the answer was UPS, I asked them if the adress could be changed (Behaviour from UPS here if they couldn´t deliver it directly to you, is pain in the ass.).
Yes, just write us a email....And so I did, long time ago before the status was changed to shipped..
And even in this first try I pleased for confirmation....Nothing.
Actually I got an idea what "shipped" means....Shipped from china.... ::) :P
-
I "talked" to them via the online live chat, asked them, which deliver company they used to ship.
As the answer was UPS, I asked them if the adress could be changed (Behaviour from UPS here if they couldn´t deliver it directly to you, is pain in the ass.).
Yes, just write us a email....And so I did, long time ago before the status was changed to shipped..
And even in this first try I pleased for confirmation....Nothing.
Actually I got an idea what "shipped" means....Shipped from china.... ::) :P
Jesus you still dont have it? |O I saw you were the last post and was looking for a review post :palm:
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Actually I got an idea what "shipped" means....Shipped from china.... ::) :P
Just wondering... do you have a tracking number? I'd insist you get a tracking number or a refund.
-
As far as I know, siglent.eu is a 'One man show' - JR Special Electronics (Jonas Rijnders)
-
Nico,
It is confusing...
See pics below, on the same day I got the confirmation of the item was shipped and from netherland standaard post, they await the item to deliver, with tracking number....
-
Siglant.eu get its parts from siglant hub in Germany. So they come from China to Germany, then to the Netherlands and then back to Germany. Does not sound like the most ideal route. Siglant.eu is very dependant of what it gets from germany, if they get assigned a small number because Netherlands is small compared to Germany and people from outside the Netherlands also order their stuff here, then the waiting lines, can become very large.
-
At all it would no problem for me, if they would play with open cards from the beginning.
Sorry sir, we don´t have it in stock, we must order this from china, it takes some weeks before we got it and then you could get it...No problem.
If they told me that - But they don´t.
Thumbs down, nothing else.
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At all it would no problem for me, if they would play with open cards from the beginning.
Sorry sir, we don´t have it in stock, we must order this from china, it takes some weeks before we got it and then you could get it...No problem.
If they told me that - But they don´t.
Thumbs down, nothing else.
Nope, it comes from Siglent in Hamburg like jvenema describes.
If Hamburg haven't got them in stock then it comes first from the factory in Shenzhen.
Resellers don't have access to factory stock like we authorized distributors.
-
Ah, OK.
But it wouldn´t change a thing of the behaviour from siglent.eu
-
Import it from the states? the NA office turned my last order around in a day
https://siglentna.com/product/power-analysis-deskew-fixture/ (https://siglentna.com/product/power-analysis-deskew-fixture/)
-
Nico,
It is confusing...
See pics below, on the same day I got the confirmation of the item was shipped and from netherland standaard post, they await the item to deliver, with tracking number....
This only means that the shipment has been announced to the shipper but no actual package has been handed to the shipper yet.
-
Hello everybody,
is there anyone succeeding to provide to the AWG integrated in the scope a user defined waveform? Here I'm trying from a couple of days, but I'm not yet able to succeed....
Hi Sergio,
I have experienced same problems as you, and I'm still confused too. I know the EasyWave X is a newly developed EasyWave. The older EasyWave will crash if send waves to AWG of SDS2000X+, and the new one... it NOT even let you do this at all |O Since I don't have a siglent SDG generators, don't know how it works on SDG series, but this software seems like it just wasn't designed for an oscilloscope even the manual says "use EasyWave to create a user waveform". It's almost like a disaster when you using these softwares with SDS2000X+, the only thing I can do is capture waves to PC, but as you said the data is very inaccurate makes this function useless, beside we can store the waveform on the Udisk.
One way I think may work is to save the waveform file to Udisk, and open it on the AWG menu. Unfortunately, I tried many many times both on the EasyWave and EasyWave X, both failed |O.
And yes I found one truly successed way to send a user wave to the AWG, by create it on OTHER AWG and probe it to a channel, let's say C1, then select C1 as user wave source. But it's such a stupid and useless method :-// These are the responsibilities of siglent, they provide the AWG but don't make it work properly, Hope we can see some improvements in firmware updates.
Tan
-
Hello everybody,
is there anyone succeeding to provide to the AWG integrated in the scope a user defined waveform? Here I'm trying from a couple of days, but I'm not yet able to succeed....
Hi Sergio,
I have experienced same problems as you, and I'm still confused too. I know the EasyWave X is a newly developed EasyWave. The older EasyWave will crash if send waves to AWG of SDS2000X+, and the new one... it NOT even let you do this at all |O Since I don't have a siglent SDG generators, don't know how it works on SDG series, but this software seems like it just wasn't designed for an oscilloscope even the manual says "use EasyWave to create a user waveform". It's almost like a disaster when you using these softwares with SDS2000X+, the only thing I can do is capture waves to PC, but as you said the data is very inaccurate makes this function useless, beside we can store the waveform on the Udisk.
One way I think may work is to save the waveform file to Udisk, and open it on the AWG menu. Unfortunately, I tried many many times both on the EasyWave and EasyWave X, both failed |O.
And yes I found one truly successed way to send a user wave to the AWG, by create it on OTHER AWG and probe it to a channel, let's say C1, then select C1 as user wave source. But it's such a stupid and useless method :-// These are the responsibilities of siglent, they provide the AWG but don't make it work properly, Hope we can see some improvements in firmware updates.
Tan
Please write it up with care and add it here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/)
It you can also document it with screenshots and waveform files I can put you in touch with Tech support so to be sure it gets fixed in coming FW updates.
TIA.
-
I've never really used any version of easywave to make waveforms as it is in general limited and all it is making is a csv file that i can directly enter data into
that said i do have X installed and just had it make me a basic stair stepper 512k points and saved the csv to a usb stick
Had no idea the scope had an arb on it but went right to it and loaded the file and it worked fine, just let it use the default sdg6000.. noted it had no drop down for the scope in the listbox
Sending waveforms to any siglent product has always been haphazard... you are almost always better served using a usb drive in my experience
-
One way I think may work is to save the waveform file to Udisk, and open it on the AWG menu. Unfortunately, I tried many many times both on the EasyWave and EasyWave X, both failed |O.
And yes I found one truly successed way to send a user wave to the AWG, by create it on OTHER AWG and probe it to a channel, let's say C1, then select C1 as user wave source. But it's such a stupid and useless method :-// These are the responsibilities of siglent, they provide the AWG but don't make it work properly, Hope we can see some improvements in firmware updates.
Tan
Hi Tan,
I also tried as a first step to save the waveform file to Udisk and open it in the AWG menu, but it was not working: the name of the file is correctly shown on the screen, but the waveform generated remains the previously selected (no error message).
The problem is that I don't know which is the sintax accepted for the .csv file and if the one I generated (with EasyWaveX) has the correct one.
By the way, I was not even succeeding to provide the waveform captured by another channel: could you please explain me, step by step, how you succeed to do that?
I've never really used any version of easywave to make waveforms as it is in general limited and all it is making is a csv file that i can directly enter data into
that said i do have X installed and just had it make me a basic stair stepper 512k points and saved the csv to a usb stick
Had no idea the scope had an arb on it but went right to it and loaded the file and it worked fine, just let it use the default sdg6000.. noted it had no drop down for the scope in the listbox
Sending waveforms to any siglent product has always been haphazard... you are almost always better served using a usb drive in my experience
Hi Elasia,
basically what you did with EasyWaveX is similar to my trials generating csv file: the difference is that in my files, since in + the SDS2000X datasheet a 16k AWG memory is specified, I always used a much lower number of points.
Here I'm attaching a very simple csv file I created, that is not correctly loaded by the scope: maybe you can easily find which is the issue or sintax not accepted.
On the other side, I'd be very grateful to you if you can upload a csv file that you succeeded to load on the scope, generating any waveform (maybe, the basic stair stepper you mentioned):
this should be working also in my side and would be a good starting point for me to understand how to create the csv file.
Thanks!
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Yeah it failed to load in mine as well
I dont think it liked that it was such a tiny sample but it never displays anything for an error loading
Try setting up a file with many of them at the rate you want them to pulse at
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I just tried generating the csv files (using the default sdg6000X) for a very simple sinewave at 1kHz, with 16k samples (16384) or 512k samples (524288): both are not loaded.
Up to now I never succeeded to load a wave in any way. So, if anyone can upload a working csv file, it would be very helpful for me.
Further, when I select "Channel" in the AWG menu, the only effect I get is that the AWG output is turned off: nothing else happens, even asking me (as I was expecting) which
analog channel I want to use.
....maybe I'm missing something trivial..... :(
-
Pretty sure its bugged... basically it fails to load for X reason and wont tell you why.. try this one.. you will see its the same formatting
Have to wonder if the console puts out any error code
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Pretty sure its bugged... basically it fails to load for X reason and wont tell you why.. try this one.. you will see its the same formatting
Have to wonder if the console puts out any error code
Yep..
cp /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/positive_pulseDC1000ppm.bin /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/positive_pulseDC1000ppm.bin
cp: can't stat '/usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/positive_pulseDC1000ppm.bin': No such file or directory
rm -f /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/positive_pulseDC1000ppm.info
rm -f /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/positive_pulseDC1000ppm.info
I/O warning : failed to load external entity "/usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/positive_pulseDC1000ppm.info"
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
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Pretty sure its bugged... basically it fails to load for X reason and wont tell you why.. try this one.. you will see its the same formatting
Have to wonder if the console puts out any error code
Hi Elasia,
I tried the files you attached, but it's failing in my side! Is it correctly loaded in your scope? If this is the case.... :palm:
Yep..
cp /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/positive_pulseDC1000ppm.bin /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/positive_pulseDC1000ppm.bin
cp: can't stat '/usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/positive_pulseDC1000ppm.bin': No such file or directory
rm -f /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/positive_pulseDC1000ppm.info
rm -f /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/positive_pulseDC1000ppm.info
I/O warning : failed to load external entity "/usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/positive_pulseDC1000ppm.info"
I/O error : Read-only file system
Looking at the output of your console, I noticed something strange: it seems the system is trying to load positive_pulseDC1000ppm.bin
instead of positive_pulseDC1000ppm.csv! I suppose you did not create a .bin file.....
-
Yeah its trying to do some sort of conversion and getting lost.. i managed to get it to load a couple of times with enough fucking around.. its suppose to load the csv file
I'd assume if you made a bin file of the format it wants inside of it, it would work
-
I did some frequency response measurements and used a NanoVna and a NanoVna V2 as uncalibrated poor man's signal generator (Stimulus -> CW-Freq) to compare before and after an upgrade.
The probes were not tested, just the generator via SMA cable plus BNC adaptor into the 50R terminated channel input.
-
Yeah its trying to do some sort of conversion and getting lost.. i managed to get it to load a couple of times with enough fucking around.. its suppose to load the csv file
I'd assume if you made a bin file of the format it wants inside of it, it would work
Elasia,
I suppose you already noticed that: the testwave you uploaded is exactly IDENTICAL to the StairUp pre-defined waveform, that is the default selected when you choose Arbitrary Type.
So, when I tried to use this csv file, I firstly selected a different waveform and then to use the csv, to check if the file is correctly loaded, changing back to the StairUp waveform
(...and this never happens).
Please write it up with care and add it here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/)
It you can also document it with screenshots and waveform files I can put you in touch with Tech support so to be sure it gets fixed in coming FW updates.
TIA.
I'm willing to add this to the bugs/missing features/requests list, but at first I'd like to be sure there are no errors in my side (....nor a problem of my scope....which would be a really nasty case): in my side,
I'm not even able to load a waveform from an analog channel, which is something I understood someone else succeeded to do.
-
Mine was more likely related to something unrelated i am working on
attached is what it tries to convert your file into, the only way to load the arb with a custom file is to have a read/write usb drive to load it from which means you have to console in and remount it as such
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By the way, I was not even succeeding to provide the waveform captured by another channel: could you please explain me, step by step, how you succeed to do that?
Sure, it's a very simple operation, just hidden in the channel menu, Easily overlooked:)
channel menu-->applied to-->AWG (this will save the wave to internal Arb storage)
AWG menu-->Arb Type-->stored-->channel (this will load saved wave)
There are some points to note：
1, the saved wave is not in the RAM but a dedicated storage, you can recall it any time after you send wave to AWG, even restarted.
2, It's better to have a Single cycle displayed on the screen when you save it to AWG, so as to get the correct frequency output. because this function will save the entire screen and treat it as a single cycle.
Say if you have a 1kHz waveform and you put 5 cycles displayed on the screen, then you save it to AWG. When reload that wave from Arb, and set Arb to 1kHz, you will get a 1kHz but one count with 5 cycles, which is actually a 5khz waveform.
3, This "Copy" mothe will inevitably contents the output distortion, sampling error and front-end noise to the waveform, It can only be treat as a temporary method before siglent fixing the remote or USB import bugs.
PS. I've also never successfully loaded a .CSV file :-//
-
Please write it up with care and add it here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/)
It you can also document it with screenshots and waveform files I can put you in touch with Tech support so to be sure it gets fixed in coming FW updates.
TIA.
Hello tautech, I've already feedback these problems to my dealer here in China, also some other bugs such like the system response is prone to freeze when use zone trigger with zoom mode.
-
It would be nice if you could post it in the bug and feature thread too.
-
By the way, I was not even succeeding to provide the waveform captured by another channel: could you please explain me, step by step, how you succeed to do that?
Sure, it's a very simple operation, just hidden in the channel menu, Easily overlooked:)
channel menu-->applied to-->AWG (this will save the wave to internal Arb storage)
AWG menu-->Arb Type-->stored-->channel (this will load saved wave)
There are some points to note：
1, the saved wave is not in the RAM but a dedicated storage, you can recall it any time after you send wave to AWG, even restarted.
2, It's better to have a Single cycle displayed on the screen when you save it to AWG, so as to get the correct frequency output. because this function will save the entire screen and treat it as a single cycle.
Say if you have a 1kHz waveform and you put 5 cycles displayed on the screen, then you save it to AWG. When reload that wave from Arb, and set Arb to 1kHz, you will get a 1kHz but one count with 5 cycles, which is actually a 5khz waveform.
3, This "Copy" mothe will inevitably contents the output distortion, sampling error and front-end noise to the waveform, It can only be treat as a temporary method before siglent fixing the remote or USB import bugs.
PS. I've also never successfully loaded a .CSV file :-//
Hi Tan,
thanks a lot: now I can load the waveform from the analog channel. So, at least, we are experiencing the same troubles with CSV files....
-
Still no deskew fixture in my hands... :(
No response to my mails, no response in the live chat, really disappointing.
If it doesn´t arrive in the next week, I want my money back.
And hopefully I got it back then. >:(
-
Thank you. I appreciated your humor.
But for serious measure, I will look for a serious device. Of course.
Out of curiosity, what's the unit of measurement of "Device Seriousness"? Would 10 MegaSeriousnets do? :-DD
I wouldn't wait with bated breath for any reply to this question, despite the unfulfilled promise of "getting back with an answer tomorrow" (it's been a month without any further appearance in this thread since he made that promise). Whilst he's been a member for just over three years, he's only posted 13 times with the last 6 of them being here in the space of an hour blowing a whole 546 day's worth of activity in the process, almost doubling his activity rate to 0.011 posts per day! :)
I suspect the contrast in price between a "Toy" that would still more than suffice to answer the question "Did that BW licence upgrade actually have any effect or not?" and a professional grade RF Signal Generator capable of permitting flatness curve measurements to +/-0.1dB or better costing tens of thousands of dollars must have prompted a "Shoot from the hip" posting which he's now probably regretting (I do know that feeling all too well :-[ :palm:).
I've been reading this thread for almost a fortnight since viewing Dave's and The Defpom's review / teardown videos and this unchallenged assertion that this toy 35 to 4000MHz VFO module would be of no use whatsoever as a cheap means of verifying whether or not a BW upgrade has actually taken effect, has been irritating me over the past week since reading famalex's posts. Personally, I'd expect with 500MHz being only 12.5% of a 4GHz BW, it would more than suffice for making such sanity checks on the new BW limits of a hacked 'scope. ;D
I rather think that, since nobody else has mentioned the merits (or not) of a "cheap toy" VFO module, rather than return to apologise for his hasty dismissal of this "toy", he's decided to keep his head below the parapet and keep shtum - let sleeping dogs lie and all that. TBH I think, given the seeming lack of interest, I'd do the same. ::)
I've been pondering the need to upgrade my SDS1202X-E "Toy" (it had only cost a mere £365 just 18 months ago >:D) over the past 3 or 4 weeks ever since I started running comparative phase stability tests between my mark I and mark II basic GPSDO designs using my "Toy" FY6600-60M function generator (a mere bauble at just £76 plus a few bits 'n' bobs for upgrade components, circa another 60 quid tops) to externally trigger it with a 10MHz Sinc pulse which, trimming for temperature changes once every few hours using the 2GT effect to fine tune the ppt variations (mostly diurnal temperature variations with an all but invisible ageing component) that still manage to afflict the 10MHz ovenised crystal oscillator reference (with 3n502 clock multiplier chip) that has replaced the original 20ppm rated 50MHz smd XO.
I'm looking at the ionospheric effects on the phase of the 10MHz disciplined OCXO in each GPSDO. Both are basic hardware PLL designs with M8N gps receiver modules, the first using a TC of 500, the second, using a more ambitious TC of 5000 in order to tame these sub subsonic phase modulations.
In order to get some idea of the level of these phase shifts, I needed an independent, free running reference that's at least stable enough in frequency from hour to hour for these phase shifts to be revealed for what they really are, sub subsonic phase modulation noise created by imperfect GPS correction data for changes in the ionosphere's electron density. My upgraded toy FG fulfils this need quite nicely (Yey! Yet another win for "Toy" T&M kit >:D ).
Commodity priced navigation only GPS receiver modules aren't the best choice for such basic hardware PLL driven designs. If you want to avoid using a microcontroller to function as a long time constant DSP PLL using a Kalman filtering algorithm to filter out the sub subsonic (mHz to uHz range) phase modulation noise, a timing module is the only alternative way to achieve such low sub subsonic phase noise performance with a traditional hardware PLL setup.
I finally located and ordered a cheapish (41 quid delivered) M8T module a few days ago - the trouble is it's from a Chinese reseller on Amazon and estimated delivery is the beginning of August :( . Hopefully, I'll have taken delivery of an SDS2104X+ a week or two earlier. :)
Being able to actually observe the triggering waveform on a third channel (along with all the tunable triggering options this brings, plus a 20 fold reduction in triggering jitter) is just one of the many improvements I'm looking to obtain by splashing out some £1260 on an SDS2104X+ (I'm currently negotiating a 5% discount off the UK price with my DSO supplier, Labtronix - with luck, I might hear some good news on that front by Monday).
I've only seen one other UK supplier (but, afaicr they're not an official Siglent distributor - I could be wrong). I'll have another look for other UK based T&M kit resellers who might be prepared to offer an EEVBlog (or any) discount whilst I await Labtronix's answer.
If any other UK based EEVBlog members have any UK supplier recommendations to offer, now would be the ideal time to step forward with all your money saving recommendation(s). :) ::)
JBG
-
JBG, take your pick:
https://www.siglenteu.com/how-to-buy/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/how-to-buy/)
United Kingdom
Labtronix
7 Durrell Close, Loughborough Leicestershire, LE11 5FA, UK
44 (0)1509 434245
www.labtronix.co.uk (http://www.labtronix.co.uk)
enquire@labtronix.co.uk
United Kingdom
PASS Ltd
1 Alberto Street, Stockton on Tees, TS18 2BQ UK
44 (0)800 247 1600
www.tester.co.uk (http://www.tester.co.uk)
info@tester.co.uk
United Kingdom
Telonic Instruments
Unit 5, The Business Centre, Molly Millar’s Lane, Wokingham, Berkshire, RG41 2QZ, UK
44 (0)118 978 6911
www.siglent.co.uk (http://www.siglent.co.uk)
info@telonic.co.uk
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Wow tautech! That was a bloody fast response! :)
I'd barely finished "Proof" / Vanity reading my actual post as it appeared in the the thread, seconds after hitting the send button, before refreshing the page to see your instant reply.
Many thanks for providing that short list. Labtronix has been my sole DSO supplier for the past 18 months (although TBH, that SDS1202X-E has been my one and only purchase so far. ;) ).
I've had a look at the other two suppliers' web sites and the second one seems to have jacked up their pricing by some 14.2% over the RRP of the SDS2000X+ series as shown here:
https://www.tester.co.uk/siglent-sds2000x-plus-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes-4-channels (https://www.tester.co.uk/siglent-sds2000x-plus-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes-4-channels)
The third one, Telonic Instruments, Like Labtronix, seem to be sticking to the RRP guidelines.
Obviously, tester.co.uk need not apply as my (or anyone's) supplier for Siglent kit but Telonic Instruments might be worth pursuing for a discount price.
Once again, my thanks for such a swift and helpful response (2 out of 3 isn't a bad hit rate :) )
JBG
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If I remember it right, buying by welectron/germany using all goodies can save up to appx 10% off.
(EEV blog coupon, prepaid bonus)
-
Nah, it's 6.9% (5% for EEVBlog and 2% for prepaid: (1-0.95*0.98)*100 = 6.9). However, with the recent VAT reduction to 16% in Germany, I was able to save another few %. In the end I saved around 9.34% compared to the official price in June with 19% VAT. Yeah, that's right, I finally could convince myself to jump onto the Siglent bandwagon. Went for a SDS5034X (still with full option promotion) though. So, offtopic here.
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Still no deskew fixture in my hands... :(
No response to my mails, no response in the live chat, really disappointing.
If it doesn´t arrive in the next week, I want my money back.
And hopefully I got it back then. >:(
That is nuts... try calling up Siglent NA to send you one.. will cost a bit extra with no discount or anything but they do have them sitting around.. if you get any flak about shipping you could get it to me and i'll send it out via whatever then just pay me via paypal
It takes them less than a day to send me anything, every order i've done with them for rare items i want now has showed up the next day.. but im also an hour away
https://siglentna.com/product/power-analysis-deskew-fixture/ (https://siglentna.com/product/power-analysis-deskew-fixture/)
Also tell them your story and maybe they will take pity on you and make right what siglent eu is fucking around on tarnishing siglent's name
-
Still no deskew fixture in my hands... :(
No response to my mails, no response in the live chat, really disappointing.
If it doesn´t arrive in the next week, I want my money back.
And hopefully I got it back then. >:(
That is nuts... try calling up Siglent NA to send you one.. will cost a bit extra with no discount or anything but they do have them sitting around.. if you get any flak about shipping you could get it to me and i'll send it out via whatever then just pay me via paypal
It takes them less than a day to send me anything, every order i've done with them for rare items i want now has showed up the next day.. but im also an hour away
https://siglentna.com/product/power-analysis-deskew-fixture/ (https://siglentna.com/product/power-analysis-deskew-fixture/)
Also tell them your story and maybe they will take pity on you and make right what siglent eu is fucking around on tarnishing siglent's name
Siglent.eu is not Siglent's EU office. That is some dealer that snatched domain and playing dumb like they are Siglent, the factory.
Siglent EU offices are at siglenteu.com ( in a same manner as siglentna.com : Siglent North America)
-
Good Morning John,
I got mine from Welectron after asking all the german distributors for their special price via Mail.
After a nice mail exchange with the owner I bought it there with 5% off and Paypal payment.
The device arrived two days later. With the reduced VAT in Germany (16%) as Martin mentioned
it should be worth a try.
Yesterday I ordered a SDG2042 there and noticed that they now offer a free financing via Paypal with
6 or 12 monthly payments (of course you loose the other discounts) but may be it helps someone.
(I stopped my efforts with the FY6900 and decided to invest now in a tool that fulfill better my needs but
that‘s a story for the other board)
-
Still no deskew fixture in my hands... :(
No response to my mails, no response in the live chat, really disappointing.
If it doesn´t arrive in the next week, I want my money back.
And hopefully I got it back then. >:(
That is nuts... try calling up Siglent NA to send you one.. will cost a bit extra with no discount or anything but they do have them sitting around.. if you get any flak about shipping you could get it to me and i'll send it out via whatever then just pay me via paypal
It takes them less than a day to send me anything, every order i've done with them for rare items i want now has showed up the next day.. but im also an hour away
https://siglentna.com/product/power-analysis-deskew-fixture/ (https://siglentna.com/product/power-analysis-deskew-fixture/)
Also tell them your story and maybe they will take pity on you and make right what siglent eu is fucking around on tarnishing siglent's name
Siglent.eu is not Siglent's EU office. That is some dealer that snatched domain and playing dumb like they are Siglent, the factory.
Siglent EU offices are at siglenteu.com ( in a same manner as siglentna.com : Siglent North America)
Oh it was that guy? I thought he ordered from siglenteu.com and been going wtf this whole time.. that sucks
-
Good Morning John,
I got mine from Welectron after asking all the german distributors for their special price via Mail.
After a nice mail exchange with the owner I bought it there with 5% off and Paypal payment.
The device arrived two days later. With the reduced VAT in Germany (16%) as Martin mentioned
it should be worth a try.
Yesterday I ordered a SDG2042 there and noticed that they now offer a free financing via Paypal with
6 or 12 monthly payments (of course you loose the other discounts) but may be it helps someone.
(I stopped my efforts with the FY6900 and decided to invest now in a tool that fulfill better my needs but
that‘s a story for the other board)
Good evening to you, Bad_Driver,
Apologies for the delay in responding but I've been rather busy sorting out a discount deal with telonic.co.uk for an SDS2104X+. I've ordered mine from them just this afternoon with a nice discount. I'm expecting delivery sometime the end of this week or else the middle of next barring any unforeseen delays.
I'd have gotten a discount out of Labtronix if I'd enquired a week sooner to catch their last bulk order on these models (they're not usually a stocked item) and it would likely be another 8 weeks to the next bulk order opportunity to get a discounted price, otherwise I'd have placed my order with them (on the "Better the Devil You Know" principle - they've never once let me down but then I've only ordered just the one item from them 18 months ago, namely an SDS1202X-E :) ).
I realise this is off topic but I'm curious about why you didn't choose the slightly cheaper SDG1062X over the SDG2042 which only goes to 40MHz versus the 60MHz (both sine and square waves) of the former as an upgrade over the FY6900. Presumably, you were more attracted by the 16 bit resolution and the touch screen interface than an upper frequency limit to match that of the FY6900.
I've been looking at the specifications in detail (again!) on both the SDG1000X and the SDG2000X series function generators (the only model ranges within reach of my wallet that aren't a complete joke novelty item compared to even an FY6600-60M for more than twice its price (eg the SDG805 and SDG810 single channel 5 and 10MHz models).
The SDG1062 to my mind, looks a little more attractive as an upmarket replacement for my much improved FY6600-60M but I won't be making a purchasing decision right away until I've concluded my upgrade efforts with the FY6600 (upgrading those 85 ohm 20dB attenuators to 50 ohm pads and, maybe a PSU upgrade if testing with battery power and a 7805 validates the benefit of such). OTOH, like you, I might just have done with my toy FG and treat myself to a brand spanking new SDG1062 ::) - I think I can manage without the additional 2 bits of resolution and a touch screen :) .
JBG
-
Good Morning John,
I got mine from Welectron after asking all the german distributors for their special price via Mail.
After a nice mail exchange with the owner I bought it there with 5% off and Paypal payment.
The device arrived two days later. With the reduced VAT in Germany (16%) as Martin mentioned
it should be worth a try.
Yesterday I ordered a SDG2042 there and noticed that they now offer a free financing via Paypal with
6 or 12 monthly payments (of course you loose the other discounts) but may be it helps someone.
(I stopped my efforts with the FY6900 and decided to invest now in a tool that fulfill better my needs but
that‘s a story for the other board)
Good evening to you, Bad_Driver,
Apologies for the delay in responding but I've been rather busy sorting out a discount deal with telonic.co.uk for an SDS2104X+. I've ordered mine from them just this afternoon with a nice discount. I'm expecting delivery sometime the end of this week or else the middle of next barring any unforeseen delays.
I'd have gotten a discount out of Labtronix if I'd enquired a week sooner to catch their last bulk order on these models (they're not usually a stocked item) and it would likely be another 8 weeks to the next bulk order opportunity to get a discounted price, otherwise I'd have placed my order with them (on the "Better the Devil You Know" principle - they've never once let me down but then I've only ordered just the one item from them 18 months ago, namely an SDS1202X-E :) ).
I realise this is off topic but I'm curious about why you didn't choose the slightly cheaper SDG1062X over the SDG2042 which only goes to 40MHz versus the 60MHz (both sine and square waves) of the former as an upgrade over the FY6900. Presumably, you were more attracted by the 16 bit resolution and the touch screen interface than an upper frequency limit to match that of the FY6900.
I've been looking at the specifications in detail (again!) on both the SDG1000X and the SDG2000X series function generators (the only model ranges within reach of my wallet that aren't a complete joke novelty item compared to even an FY6600-60M for more than twice its price (eg the SDG805 and SDG810 single channel 5 and 10MHz models).
The SDG1062 to my mind, looks a little more attractive as an upmarket replacement for my much improved FY6600-60M but I won't be making a purchasing decision right away until I've concluded my upgrade efforts with the FY6600 (upgrading those 85 ohm 20dB attenuators to 50 ohm pads and, maybe a PSU upgrade if testing with battery power and a 7805 validates the benefit of such). OTOH, like you, I might just have done with my toy FG and treat myself to a brand spanking new SDG1062 ::) - I think I can manage without the additional 2 bits of resolution and a touch screen :) .
JBG
Beyond these spec differences which are huge.. 1.2 GSa/s 16-bit 8 pts to 8 Mpts vs 150 MSa/s 14-bit 16 kpts
The 2k can be unlocked to 120MHz, the 1k only goes to 60MHz.. extra 200 is worth it for arbing all day long
-
Good Morning John,
I got mine from Welectron after asking all the german distributors for their special price via Mail.
After a nice mail exchange with the owner I bought it there with 5% off and Paypal payment.
The device arrived two days later. With the reduced VAT in Germany (16%) as Martin mentioned
it should be worth a try.
Yesterday I ordered a SDG2042 there and noticed that they now offer a free financing via Paypal with
6 or 12 monthly payments (of course you loose the other discounts) but may be it helps someone.
(I stopped my efforts with the FY6900 and decided to invest now in a tool that fulfill better my needs but
that‘s a story for the other board)
Good evening to you, Bad_Driver,
Apologies for the delay in responding but I've been rather busy sorting out a discount deal with telonic.co.uk for an SDS2104X+. I've ordered mine from them just this afternoon with a nice discount. I'm expecting delivery sometime the end of this week or else the middle of next barring any unforeseen delays.
I'd have gotten a discount out of Labtronix if I'd enquired a week sooner to catch their last bulk order on these models (they're not usually a stocked item) and it would likely be another 8 weeks to the next bulk order opportunity to get a discounted price, otherwise I'd have placed my order with them (on the "Better the Devil You Know" principle - they've never once let me down but then I've only ordered just the one item from them 18 months ago, namely an SDS1202X-E :) ).
I realise this is off topic but I'm curious about why you didn't choose the slightly cheaper SDG1062X over the SDG2042 which only goes to 40MHz versus the 60MHz (both sine and square waves) of the former as an upgrade over the FY6900. Presumably, you were more attracted by the 16 bit resolution and the touch screen interface than an upper frequency limit to match that of the FY6900.
I've been looking at the specifications in detail (again!) on both the SDG1000X and the SDG2000X series function generators (the only model ranges within reach of my wallet that aren't a complete joke novelty item compared to even an FY6600-60M for more than twice its price (eg the SDG805 and SDG810 single channel 5 and 10MHz models).
The SDG1062 to my mind, looks a little more attractive as an upmarket replacement for my much improved FY6600-60M but I won't be making a purchasing decision right away until I've concluded my upgrade efforts with the FY6600 (upgrading those 85 ohm 20dB attenuators to 50 ohm pads and, maybe a PSU upgrade if testing with battery power and a 7805 validates the benefit of such). OTOH, like you, I might just have done with my toy FG and treat myself to a brand spanking new SDG1062 ::) - I think I can manage without the additional 2 bits of resolution and a touch screen :) .
JBG
Beyond these spec differences which are huge.. 1.2 GSa/s 16-bit 8 pts to 8 Mpts vs 150 MSa/s 14-bit 16 kpts
The 2k can be unlocked to 120MHz, the 1k only goes to 60MHz.. extra 200 is worth it for arbing all day long
A 1032 vs 2042 thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sdg-2042x-as-first-fg/msg2150209/#msg2150209 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sdg-2042x-as-first-fg/msg2150209/#msg2150209)
-
Still no deskew fixture in my hands... :(
Oh, won´t believe it :
[attachimg=1]
-
Martin
You really still not have this fixture cripes I have had six deliveries from the USA, and one from Greece since last Thursday that is poor service.
Mind UPS here in the UK have been experiencing big issues here lately with a total overloading over there capabilities with up to 7 days on a next day service :-\
-
This is really the badest service ever, even goods from china arrived here sooner.
And the chinese answer you to your mails...
If the fixure does really arrive on tomorrow, I´ll noticed that and will never ever do an order again on siglent.eu.
Lessons learned.
-
Martin
You really still not have this fixture cripes I have had six deliveries from the USA, andvone from Greece since last Thursday that is poor service.
Mind UPS here in the UK have been experiencing big issues here lately with a total overloading over there capabilities with upto 7bdays on a next day service
Explained here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3107236/#msg3107236 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3107236/#msg3107236)
Many parts of the globe currently don't have viable airfreight service so products need come by sea to Siglent in Germany then be forwarded to resellers then to customers.
It all takes time but the real problem for Martin has been lack of good communication from his supplier.
-
I never received Gandalf's PCBs (since April) and have received several things from China in the meantime...
-
It all takes time but the real problem for Martin has been lack of good communication from his supplier.
Exactly the point plus I don´t like to get screwed ( they marked the item as "shipped" on june 13th).
-
It all takes time but the real problem for Martin has been lack of good communication from his supplier.
Exactly the point plus I don´t like to get screwed ( they marked the item as "shipped" on june 13th).
You think you're hard done by, I placed an order 8 weeks ago and had to wait 3 weeks until Siglent finished manufacturing a BIG order before they could even run a few for me. ::)
Hopefully I finally collect next Monday after they hit the local port on Friday. :phew:
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This is one of the reasons I never let our manufacturering facilities get sold off for far east cheaper production.
At one point we used to produce mobile phone communication masts for two of the big UK providers and having the adjustable angling brackets made literally 200 years away and yet I could obtain an alternative from Thailand at pretty much a 1/3 of the cost whilst being of merchantable quality is a big incentive to increase profits and reduce costs that was in 2003
Now these days our scale is smaller however I have retained UK or European production 100% it's not that the far east cannot produce quality goods they can without question providing you have your own QA in the factory and you are prepared to wait the 8-12 weeks by boat to obtain the margins to make it profitable
Our circuit boards take around 5 days to produce, coincidentally I could get them quicker and cheaper however if I have any issues or revisions it is far easier and consistency is better here imho
Things are changing in the free market economy not just because of the B word but realistically due to making life easier and delivering repeatable quality.
Mind you if you cannot deliver when stated keeping the customer apprised at all times is a bare minimum and having faceless and difficult to contact companies via non transparent websites should result in the directors being whipped with a lightly salted slug on a cold November morning on the Isle of Skye
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having faceless and difficult to contact companies via non transparent websites should result in the directors being whipped with a lightly salted slug on a cold November morning on the Isle of Skye
Many years ago the UK was the world's envy for quality manufacturing goods ...
So what happened?
***BEGIN RANT***
Greed & Globalization :palm:
The 'owners' of the manufacturing facilities (and this includes Public Companies)
- were presented with an easy to take alternative
- whilst increasing their profit margins
- hard to refuse
- especially when they totally neglected the drug-like-dependency to the new masters of their production lines |O
Many years later
- their so called 'increased profit margins' have totally eroded
- as they started to compete with others who have ventured to the same 'dark side' and are also in the same predicament.
Now not just the UK
- but most of the world is dependent on the C word for virtually all their manufactured goods.
How many would be prepared to pay an additional $1000 for test equipment made in the UK?
Remember
- we have some of the smartest people in the world here (Boris NOT included :P )
- we have the technical know-how
BUT
we don't have the resolve to do anything to make a difference |O
We ALL need to chip-in to support the local industry
- if not then we will never get off the drug-like-dependency of the C word global exporter who feeds everyone's dependency for merchandise
- electronic or otherwise
***END RANT***
-
Many years ago the UK was the world's envy for quality manufacturing goods ...
Yes like their 60/70/80 cars with 'engineered in' oil leaks. ::)
Then along came the Japanese but they rusted even faster than English cars. :scared:
Then UK went to the dark side with EU and limited trade from the colonies so reciprocal measures were taken as we headed to countries that desired 2 way trade.
Corporates not held to account by Gubbermints are mostly at fault for todays imbalances.
-
Yes like their 60/70/80 cars with 'engineered in' oil leaks. ::)
Then along came the Japanese but they rusted even faster than English cars. :scared:
Corporates not held to account by Gubbermints are mostly at fault for todays imbalances.
And there was me thinking it was all a big secret :-DD
To many jokers in charge with their own interests at the forefront unfortunately anyway no chips on shoulder from Sheffield here just doing the best we can for right reasons.
Corporate greed will always be a big force in commerce fact of current life
Anyway thread difting sorry
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Hi John,
thanks for your reply. I think it is better to have the Signal Generator discussion on the other board.
I explained there my decision to stop my Feeltec FG improvement efforts and to buy a (for me) affordable better working device.
As mentioned by others (thanks!) the SDG2042 can (as the SDS2104X+ into a 2504X+) be "improved" into a SDG2122.
There is a helpful EEVBLOG-board for the SDG.
And welcome in the club of "business travelers" as you named me some weeks ago with regards to my decision for the SDS2104x+ :-DD
Beside all the cool technical specs I really love the mouse control since my SDS is on my workbench behind the DUT and all the cabling stuff and tools and so on.
And the mouse can be on the right side of my working area.
-
At last, it has arrived....
-
At last, it has arrived....
You got a new rev!!! C VS my B and its green
-
Maybe this would be the reason changing it to C, because of the colour..
Poor: No usb cable was included, at this price a little bit disappointing.
First impressions:
Stable quality of the pcb, multilayer board for creating the 8 windings for the large loop, lm555cm drives a mosfet (mosfet off = current flows through the windings), nothing special.
Later on, I´ll play a little bit with it.
-
Playing around...
Setting it up is simple, just connect a probe the voltage testpins and a current probe on one of the loops.
[attach=1]
The new micsig current probe doesn´t arrive yet, so I take my owon cp-05+ probe.
For Autodeskew you must go the power analyzer function, choosing "switching loss":
[attach=2]
But as you will see, at the moment it won´t make sense, because that is not a current I exptect to have:
[attach=3]
Wtf...What´s going on here....So I measure across a loadresistance:
[attach=4]
Aha, 1.33V/10r = 133mA and "clean".....This current probe is a real piece of crap :P
So far so good, it seems the fixure does what it have to do, detailed pics for 2n3055 will following.. 8)
Ah, and there is a bug using PA, I´ll report it in the bug/feature thread.
-
Martin
Enable a p-p current measurement and adjust the current probe attenuation to match the current specified for the loop.
Deskew can be done manually in the channel menu. Use a faster timebase to better examine the channel skew.
-
Hi Rob,
Yes but it shouldn´t matter so much that the current waveform will be deformed as it is.
I think it´s because of the limited bandwith of the clamp, will check this with bode plot later in the evening.
-
Hi Rob,
Yes but it shouldn´t matter so much that the current waveform will be deformed as it is.
I think it´s because of the limited bandwith of the clamp, will check this with bode plot later in the evening.
It's a just 22KHz square wave and it seems your CP may be busted. :-//
-
These clamps are piece of shit, the claimed bandwith of 200khz they will never reach them, check this later.
(Last year I´ve done a little review/teardown from the cp-05, with drawing a schematic - the output stage was "fullpacked" with capacitors to prevent unstable behaviour - but it can´t have the 200khz anymore due to this.)
-
It´s the clamp..... :palm:
-
Remember: that's why people buy test equipment! To test their things. ;D
Now that you have fully tested you clamp you can move on.
-
I´ve test the clamp before, but only with sinewaves as I didn´t got anything else.
Now that you have fully tested you clamp you can move on.
...to throw it in the bin. ;)
-
Well to be fair it's probably ok with a multimeter. Definitely one to add to the nearly useless oscilloscope clamps.
-
I´ve test the clamp before, but only with sinewaves as I didn´t got anything else.
This forum has shown (just in the last few weeks) that almost anything does single sinewaves. The problem is when we overlap them and create other waves...
-
Well to be fair it's probably ok with a multimeter.
I could imagine this too, but then 170€ are too much.
Can´t await to get the micsig "back" for testing the fixure thing proper.
-
First unfinished draw of the circuit...
[attach=1]
As I worked with it today, using power analyzising and bode plot, it remembers me of how good the sds2k+ is in general... 8)
-
First unfinished draw of the circuit...
(Attachment Link)
As I worked with it today, using power analyzising and bode plot, it remembers me of how good the sds2k+ is in general... 8)
Yes, that is how mosfet / loop circuit should be.. What is interesting is mosfet switch on/off risetime/falltime.. They seem to have different gate resistors on two loops.
-
Yes they got.
Couldn´t figure out the value ( seems to be a different code in compare to the markings of 1206 size resistors), but it is different.
-
First unfinished draw of the circuit...
(Attachment Link)
As I worked with it today, using power analyzising and bode plot, it remembers me of how good the sds2k+ is in general... 8)
Yes, that is how mosfet / loop circuit should be.. What is interesting is mosfet switch on/off risetime/falltime.. They seem to have different gate resistors on two loops.
/busts out smart tweezers.... ahem
A 474 \$\Omega\$ on the 8 turn and a 150 \$\Omega\$ on the 1 turn
-
Hehe, the same did I measured minutes before with my mastech ms8911 tweezers. ;)
-
Hi,
Got the schematic finished as some capacitors couldn´t be measured inbetween the circuits.
With the mastech switching to 0.1Vrms I could identify C1/C9 for a value of 1.2nF - Together with the resistors a 555 calculator pokes nearly 21Khz out - Seems to be right (22Khz measured).
The other caps I could only identify when I´m back to work, as I got there an SMD soldering tweezer.
The resistors I could clearly identify by using an Resistor Code Calculator (https://www.basictables.com/electronics/resistor/smd-resistor-code).
The resistors are in 0805 size so the typical code marking won´t fit on the surface ( 10K0 = 01C).
Nevertheless, for such a simple design the price is way too high for it, even when the multilayer pcb will of course cost more then a doublelayer.
Reminds of their logic analyzer cable.... :P
Martin
-
Just half of this added to the ST3 would make for a very useful auxiliary test PCB. 8)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1019992)
Wonders why a 556 wasn't used. :-//
-
Just half of this added to the ST3 would make for a very useful auxiliary test PCB.
And nearly worth the money then... 8)
Wonders why a 556 wasn't used.
Good question, maybe to avoid too long routes on the pcb, I don´t know.
-
Just half of this added to the ST3 would make for a very useful auxiliary test PCB.
And nearly worth the money then... 8)
Wonders why a 556 wasn't used.
Good question, maybe to avoid too long routes on the pcb, I don´t know.
Won’t matter much for gate drive signals at 22 KHz.
-
Hi,
Got the schematic finished as some capacitors couldn´t be measured inbetween the circuits.
With the mastech switching to 0.1Vrms I could identify C1/C9 for a value of 1.2nF - Together with the resistors a 555 calculator pokes nearly 21Khz out - Seems to be right (22Khz measured).
The other caps I could only identify when I´m back to work, as I got there an SMD soldering tweezer.
The resistors I could clearly identify by using an Resistor Code Calculator (https://www.basictables.com/electronics/resistor/smd-resistor-code).
The resistors are in 0805 size so the typical code marking won´t fit on the surface ( 10K0 = 01C).
Nevertheless, for such a simple design the price is way too high for it, even when the multilayer pcb will of course cost more then a doublelayer.
Reminds of their logic analyzer cable.... :P
Martin
Thanks Martin, looks OK. As I said it is REALLY expensive for what it is. If they were selling for 50 € it would be affordable enough so it wouldn't make sense to make one, and they would still make money on it. People with OTHER scopes would buy it.. Same as demo board.. They should be giving those FREE.. So people would could be seen on Youtube testing Keysight scopes and decoding Siglent on the screen.. At least they should sell it at manufacturing price..
They use two 555, because of current isolation, and simpler routing. Price is nothing anyways.
-
Just half of this added to the ST3 would make for a very useful auxiliary test PCB.
And nearly worth the money then... 8)
Wonders why a 556 wasn't used.
Good question, maybe to avoid too long routes on the pcb, I don´t know.
Won’t matter much for gate drive signals at 22 KHz.
It's not frequency, it's clean edges on gate driving current. And if you don't need super fast edges, 555 is perfect because it has push-pull output and can sink/source quite a lot of current. But grounding and return current routing needs to be clean.
-
Hope I could get the micsic probe in the next two weeks ( holidays, yeah) for final check up the thing.
Meanwhile I´m trying to investigate what´s wrong with the cp-05, but that´s another question in another thread.
The price policy of the demo board and the fixture is horrible, nevertheless I´ve bought them because of curiosity and what the demoboard concerns, they were some situations in the past where I could use it excactly in the moment I need a signal special.
So it do not hurt soo much.
-
Just half of this added to the ST3 would make for a very useful auxiliary test PCB.
And nearly worth the money then... 8)
Wonders why a 556 wasn't used.
Good question, maybe to avoid too long routes on the pcb, I don´t know.
Won’t matter much for gate drive signals at 22 KHz.
It's not frequency, it's clean edges on gate driving current. And if you don't need super fast edges, 555 is perfect because it has push-pull output and can sink/source quite a lot of current. But grounding and return current routing needs to be clean.
Not too much of an issue with the large multilayer PCB used here yet with the gate resistor values used there seems an attempt to slow the gate drive down possibly to reduce the current loop ringing. :-//
-
Well, this could be an easily finding out by changing the resistor.
Meh, reminds me that I didn´t got a smd resistor assortment...
-
Just half of this added to the ST3 would make for a very useful auxiliary test PCB.
And nearly worth the money then... 8)
Wonders why a 556 wasn't used.
Good question, maybe to avoid too long routes on the pcb, I don´t know.
Won’t matter much for gate drive signals at 22 KHz.
It's not frequency, it's clean edges on gate driving current. And if you don't need super fast edges, 555 is perfect because it has push-pull output and can sink/source quite a lot of current. But grounding and return current routing needs to be clean.
Not too much of an issue with the large multilayer PCB used here yet with the gate resistor values used there seems an attempt to slow the gate drive down possibly to reduce the current loop ringing. :-//
Correct, but it is simply easier to design, and BOM is easy anyways. Having 2 same chips is almost the same as one, as long it doesn't have to be two separate types. It is so expensive nobody cared to optimize anything. Still it should be no more than 50-60 €. And only because I respect PCB is 4 layers, and is clean debugged design. Hell even 100€ I would understand because it does have to have some kind of guarantee of signal being clean and proper. And people would buy it for other scopes too.
To be honest, it is NOT more expensive than alternatives. I'm more saying it is kinda missed opportunity..
-
Well, this could be an easily finding out by changing the resistor.
Meh, reminds me that I didn´t got a smd resistor assortment...
dude... less than 20 bucks
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32694344850.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.358e2c47ohjOSK&algo_pvid=5a804e5d-3689-4208-9b08-614ef56190d1&algo_expid=5a804e5d-3689-4208-9b08-614ef56190d1-1&btsid=0be3764515943314704483584ee7eb&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_ (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32694344850.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.358e2c47ohjOSK&algo_pvid=5a804e5d-3689-4208-9b08-614ef56190d1&algo_expid=5a804e5d-3689-4208-9b08-614ef56190d1-1&btsid=0be3764515943314704483584ee7eb&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_)
In fact i just busted mine out before this post and was changing some voltage dividers lol
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Hello,
here I'm stepping back to the old probe discussion.... :-[
What about the Testec probe TT-HF 612RA? It seems it has good specifications and I can find it at 126€ (VAT not included) here:
https://www.batterfly.com/shop/it/testandmeasurement/oscilloscopi/sonde/passive/testec-tt-hf-612ra (https://www.batterfly.com/shop/it/testandmeasurement/oscilloscopi/sonde/passive/testec-tt-hf-612ra)
Does anybody have some experience with that probe? I'm wondering if it's worth the cost for this passive probe ..... anyway, less expensive than the Siglent SP3050A (199€ VAT not included)...
Thanks!
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I got my scope in the mail the other day. My initial comments/requests.
The color of C1 and C4 are the same to a color blind person like myself. Please either give us the ability to change colors or just make them different brightness (if rendered as greyscale), if for button color reasons Siglent insists on yellow-green...
Math: Add trig functions. IQ stuff is pretty common so having tangent can often for instance be very helpful. Ideally add everything on a scientific calculator that you could have in school.
Include better probes, even if you have to raise the price slightly.
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Except the probe thing, this would be better posted in the bugs and feature (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/msg3035508/#msg3035508)thread.
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New models similar to the SDS5000X form factor and UI and whispered release is early 2020.
(https://www.siglent.com/u_file/product/19_10_31/e7bd553350.png)
2 GSa/s, BW's 70 to 500 MHz only 100, 200 and 350 MHz models to western markets.
Storage depth up to 200 Mpts/ch
120,000 wfm/s
2 or 4ch models.
8 and 10 bit modes
10" touch display with keyboard and mouse support
16ch MSO option
Standard Decodes: IIC, SPI, UART, CAN, LIN. Optional: CAN FD, FlexRay, IIS, MIL-STD-1553B each $269
2 Mpts FFT.
1M and 50 Ohm inputs.
Inbuilt 50 MHz AWG option $219
Power Analysis option $269
BW upgrade options
Released Jan 16 2020
https://int.siglent.com/products-overview/sds2000xp/ (https://int.siglent.com/products-overview/sds2000xp/)
https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/ (https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/)
https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/)
SDS2102X Plus $ 999
SDS2104X Plus $ 1399
SDS2204X Plus $ 2199
SDS2354X Plus $ 2999
Upgrade SDS2354X Plus bandwidth to 500 MHz (Only two channels) $1,399, others available.
https://youtu.be/5Gl1O8YHUso (https://youtu.be/5Gl1O8YHUso)
First look at the SDS2104X Plus by Defpom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHH4H8Q7IWg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHH4H8Q7IWg)
June 3 2020
Dave has a dive into the insides of the 350 MHz SDS2354X Plus, installs the 500 MHz BW option by way of a hack and finishes with a tangle with the 10 bit mode.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxzQS-Bn2R0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxzQS-Bn2R0)
I agree with Dave. It is a horrible design with all the pastel colours and fake silver rings on the knobs. Looks more like a beautybox for a teenager girl (on a budget), than like a professional test equipment. :--
-
For me it's OK, better than my former rigol 5000.
But it's always a matter of personal taste 😉
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I agree with Dave. It is a horrible design with all the pastel colours and fake silver rings on the knobs. Looks more like a beautybox for a teenager girl (on a budget), than like a professional test equipment. :--
LeCroy uses the exact same silver rings and nobody complains. OK, they look a bit better on black knobs, but basing a buying decision on something like this is somewhat crazy. And the "pastel" colors are those of the traces. Same for about each and every scope on the market. Current Siglent scopes might not be totally sexy, but they look a hundred times better than other Chinese scopes (also regarding fonts, general layout etc.)
-
I agree with Dave. It is a horrible design with all the pastel colours and fake silver rings on the knobs. Looks more like a beautybox for a teenager girl (on a budget), than like a professional test equipment. :--
If you don't like how it looks, well, then I recommend you should not call it out on a date or marry it... :-DD
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YMMD :-DD
-
As I said, it´s a matter of personal taste, but....
[attachimg=1]
For me, the R&S got the best design, then siglent, then keysight, then rigol, then micsig, then tek.... 8)
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I agree with Dave. It is a horrible design with all the pastel colours and fake silver rings on the knobs. Looks more like a beautybox for a teenager girl (on a budget), than like a professional test equipment. :--
Until you've used one you will never know. :P
The front panel design layout is better than SDS5kX with buttons better grouped that are less commonly used.
But a real shame it doesn't have the 3rd USB port like 5kX has. :(
But Siglent have learnt from this and the SDS6kX Pro does better with 4 USB ports, 2 front, 2 rear but we won't see these models in the west for a while yet. :(
(https://www.siglent.com/u_file/product/20_05_11/480-450.png)
(https://www.siglent.com/u_file/product/20_05_07/480-450-5.png)
-
But a real shame it doesn't have the 3rd USB port like 5kX has.
Disagree... ;)
One for the mouse, the second for the stick, it´s enough.....
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But a real shame it doesn't have the 3rd USB port like 5kX has.
Disagree... ;)
One for the mouse, the second for the stick, it´s enough.....
Power STB3, current probe, charge phone....... :P
-
.....external USB supply....
-
.....external USB supply....
I know.....I need use one sometimes just to take screenshots for you all here.
I love using the mouse with these new scopes but it hogs a USB port however with the 3 ports on 5kX it is not so much a problem.
-
Got a three port usb hub here, will test it on the siglent, if it´s work as expected on pc´s.
-
I use a 3.0 hub on it.. works fine, remember its already a linux computer inside, its anything with a dedicated embedded processor that has been specialized to watch out for, not anything running on generalized hardware
-
I agree with Dave. It is a horrible design with all the pastel colours and fake silver rings on the knobs. Looks more like a beautybox for a teenager girl (on a budget), than like a professional test equipment. :--
If you don't like how it looks, well, then I recommend you should not call it out on a date or marry it... :-DD
It works, isnt an eyesore, and no wasted space... i'd marry it
Although my favorite industrial designs tend to be R&S but they are big bucks usually
-
Same here....
If I got the money ( I got it, but not all for this hobby thing), I´ll spend it for an R&S scope.
But I couldn´t, so I spend it for the second best.... ;)
-
Hi,
Yesterday my new sdg 1032, eh, 1062X arrived, today I wanted to measure the waveform update rate from my 2504X.
So I´ve connected the pass/fail/trigger out to the counter input.
Threshold setting to 1V.
Memdepth setting to minimum, feed in a 25Mhz signal and set the timebase for displaying one period.
And the counter counts....nothing.
Or something between 17...20Hz (when you disable measurings, it count´s nothing).
I wonder why it won´t function, this method I´ve used on my former rigol and it works exactly (500000Wfs....) like if you use a scope for.
Hmm...meanwhile I type this here, maybe 1V won´t fit.
Check that.
Edit:
That was it, setting to 1.5V and it works
-
Done a few measures.
Normal mode, the maximum wfs/s was 18961 on 5ns/div., sequential mode 50607 on the same timebase.
Dot/vector makes no difference.
Wfms/s was unstable in sequential mode, so I did a break after some measurings.
According to the specs, the maximum wfs/s should be 120000 in normal and 480000 in sequential mode.
I won´t say a thing, if the real values were something between 100000/normal and 400000/seq. .
But this values, if I done it correct, are poor and it seems to be a bug to be fixed.
-
What about less than 5ns?
-
You´re right, I´ve forgot the 2ns ( done the measure in such manner, that always one period of the signal fills the screen).
-
Done a few measures.
Normal mode, the maximum wfs/s was 18961 on 5ns/div., sequential mode 50607 on the same timebase.
Dot/vector makes no difference.
Wfms/s was unstable in sequential mode, so I did a break after some measurings.
According to the specs, the maximum wfs/s should be 120000 in normal and 480000 in sequential mode.
I won´t say a thing, if the real values were something between 100000/normal and 400000/seq. .
But this values, if I done it correct, are poor and it seems to be a bug to be fixed.
I was saying the same for a long time, nobody paid attention. Tautech said the spec was done by "Design Engineers". Yeah, the design engineers wanted 120,000wfm/s, then R&D came up with 10% of spec. It is not only the count, if you look at the signal with a scope, you will find some odd dead time in between. I suspect it is measurement time, then if you activate statistics, the dead time increases significantly.
-
Yeah, to get the maximum value I must deactivate any measures.
8bit/10bit plays a role too and switching from fast to slow acquisition, this thing do it´s business... ;D
Nevertheless, in my opinion it´s too wide apart from the specs.
Done this as I said before with the rigol, it matches exactly the specs and more.
Also the trigger-signal from the rigol was so stable, that counter and scope measurings was equal.
So what´s going on with the siglent...
To be honest, that doesn´t worrying me in a matter, I would give it away.
But I find it remarkable enough to expect an official explanation for it.
Edit: Forwarded this to the siglent support.
-
Didn't we discuss this before and point mode is needed for maximum speed?
-
As I wrote it before, point/vector mode doesn´t take an effect - Maybe I´ve done something wrong, but this was the result.
Apart from this, i hope I got an answer/detailed explanation from siglent.
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To all, see how the master measures WFPS here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1142108/#msg1142108 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1142108/#msg1142108)
He has posted many Siglent WFPS tables over the years on most models and all meet spec !
There are certain operating conditions required to match datasheet results and some little thought is required to understand why. ;)
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Hehe... ;)
He should do this again with this model - As I said, maybe I did it not correctly, but missing the specs this way over is an indicator that something couldn´t be right.
And:
What´s the problem to describe in the specs under which circumstances these rates will be reached ?
So that everyone can measure it by.
As I wrote, rigol claims for the 5000 model update-rates up to 500000wfs/s and I could immediately proof this without any "tricks".
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Hehe... ;)
He should do this again with this model - As I said, maybe I did it not correctly, but missing the specs this way over is an indicator that something couldn´t be right.
Notice his flag lately ?
Parked up on northern China waiting for this CV stuff to get under control in the EU....if it ever does. :(
What´s the problem to describe in the specs under which circumstances these rates will be reached ?
Study the charts, it's all there. ;)
I could immediately proof this without any "tricks".
Tricks ? :-// Optimal settings !
It is about knowing how to get the best from your instrument for the need at hand.
A very good example from another great post from rf-loop is here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/scope-wars/msg3121780/#msg3121780 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/scope-wars/msg3121780/#msg3121780)
Really really study it. ;)
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Another suggestion, show me how to do it. ;)
Or show measures and then explain how you did it.
Or let´s waiting together what the support "says".. 8)
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Another suggestion, show me how to do it. ;)
Or show measures and then explain how you did it.
Or let´s waiting together what the support "says".. 8)
Maybe in a few days when more Plus models are in stock and after I get backorders away.
You have the scope so use clues from the charts for settings and IIRC use Dot mode.
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Either way the bottom line is that waveforms/s & segments/s are rather meaningless numbers. A way more interesting number is the worst case trigger dead-time because that tells you how fast an oscilloscope can start a new acquisition after the previous acquisition finishes.
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I was saying the same for a long time, nobody paid attention.
I did and left it to you to work on it to find out for yourself but you gave up and just called the datasheet spec BS. ::)
Now you have further info to work with maybe you can better see there are modes in DSO's that work better for some defined needs.
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I was saying the same for a long time, nobody paid attention.
I did and left it to you to work on it to find out for yourself but you gave up and just called the datasheet spec BS. ::)
Now you have further info to work with maybe you can better see there are modes in DSO's that work better for some defined needs.
If you get 120,000wfm/s with only one setting, it is datasheet marketing BS.
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I was saying the same for a long time, nobody paid attention.
I did and left it to you to work on it to find out for yourself but you gave up and just called the datasheet spec BS. ::)
Now you have further info to work with maybe you can better see there are modes in DSO's that work better for some defined needs.
If you get 120,000wfm/s with only one setting, it is datasheet marketing BS.
http://m.eet.com/media/1122087/c0906edited.pdf (http://m.eet.com/media/1122087/c0906edited.pdf)
Why not ask this BS also from Keysight or Tektronix or Teledyne LeCroy or...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1022224;image)
It is much more complex thing to specify in data sheets, there is many variables.
Look Keysight oscilloscopes data sheets and tell us what all there is about wfm update rate.
Of course user settings affect. More or less and this is why some manyfacturers are more honest that some others. Think twice who is less and who is more honest in this case.
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If you get 120,000wfm/s with only one setting, it is datasheet marketing BS.
Every manufacturer does this. How else would you have them specify such functions?
From Siglent's page for this instrument (https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/):
• Waveform capture rates up to 120,000 wfm/s (normal mode) and 500,000 wfm/s (sequence mode)
It does state "up to". :-//
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But Siglent have learnt from this and the SDS6kX Pro does better with 4 USB ports, 2 front, 2 rear but we won't see these models in the west for a while yet. :(
(https://www.siglent.com/u_file/product/20_05_11/480-450.png)
(https://www.siglent.com/u_file/product/20_05_07/480-450-5.png)
Looks very reminiscent of Japanese 'scope designs a few decades back. They were pretty wild to work with – everything was done differently. :(
Hopefully not copying that 'unique' UI experience...
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Looks very reminiscent of Japanese 'scope designs a few decades back. They were pretty wild to work with – everything was done differently. :(
Hopefully not copying that 'unique' UI experience...
We know zip about the 6kX Pro other than what it looks like and a little that can be gleaned from a Chinese datasheet however at a glance it appears to use the same GUI as existing SDS5kX and SDS2kX Plus models which themselves are a recent GUI adventure for Siglent that seems fairly well received.
~4 years back the GUI you have in your SDS1202X-E was released in the SDS2000 (before 2000X) along with the memory management strategy used in LeCroy and Pico.
Things are done 'differently' as you put it for good reason these days just as the little X-E you use is vastly different to the HP you use at work. ;)
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Looks very reminiscent of Japanese 'scope designs a few decades back. They were pretty wild to work with – everything was done differently. :(
Hopefully not copying that 'unique' UI experience...
We know zip about the 6kX Pro other than what it looks like and a little that can be gleaned from a Chinese datasheet however at a glance it appears to use the same GUI as existing SDS5kX and SDS2kX Plus models which themselves are a recent GUI adventure for Siglent that seems fairly well received.
~4 years back the GUI you have in your SDS1202X-E was released in the SDS2000 (before 2000X) along with the memory management strategy used in LeCroy and Pico.
Things are done 'differently' as you put it for good reason these days just as the little X-E you use is vastly different to the HP you use at work. ;)
Its just lecroys menu system no? Maybe new to siglent but not to market.. I welcome our lecroy ip overlords :p
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If you get 120,000wfm/s with only one setting, it is datasheet marketing BS.
You can´t expect to have it all times, but I´ve expected to measure it at last one time and close to the values of the datasheet.
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I was saying the same for a long time, nobody paid attention.
I did and left it to you to work on it to find out for yourself but you gave up and just called the datasheet spec BS. ::)
Now you have further info to work with maybe you can better see there are modes in DSO's that work better for some defined needs.
If you get 120,000wfm/s with only one setting, it is datasheet marketing BS.
http://m.eet.com/media/1122087/c0906edited.pdf (http://m.eet.com/media/1122087/c0906edited.pdf)
Why not ask this BS also from Keysight or Tektronix or Teledyne LeCroy or...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1022224;image)
It is much more complex thing to specify in data sheets, there is many variables.
Look Keysight oscilloscopes data sheets and tell us what all there is about wfm update rate.
Of course user settings affect. More or less and this is why some manyfacturers are more honest that some others. Think twice who is less and who is more honest in this case.
I turned on a KS 1200 series scope, set trigger out to BNC, then measured 200,000wfm/s, it is that simple
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I sold my SDS2000X plus, but somebody with the unit should investigate the dead time between the pulse of triggers, either to do measurement or other tasks. It is something that you can notice simply by looking at the screen... there is a consistent pause between refreshes, like 2HZ
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Didn´t got a second scope to do that, but ordered now a cheap usb scope for it (after this, I´ll send it return).
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Only one scope? :-//
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Hi John,
thanks for your reply. I think it is better to have the Signal Generator discussion on the other board.
I explained there my decision to stop my Feeltec FG improvement efforts and to buy a (for me) affordable better working device.
As mentioned by others (thanks!) the SDG2042 can (as the SDS2104X+ into a 2504X+) be "improved" into a SDG2122.
There is a helpful EEVBLOG-board for the SDG.
And welcome in the club of "business travelers" as you named me some weeks ago with regards to my decision for the SDS2104x+ :-DD
Beside all the cool technical specs I really love the mouse control since my SDS is on my workbench behind the DUT and all the cabling stuff and tools and so on.
And the mouse can be on the right side of my working area.
Hello Bad_Driver, and thank you for that welcome. :)
I am now happy to report that the SDS2104X+ I'd ordered from Telonic last week arrived this Monday morning. The only item missing from the box being the calibration certificate. I'll contact them tomorrow to let them know and see what their response is.
I know it is only a piece of paper but it does offer reassurance that the 'scope has been through a factory calibration process. Siglent are famous for providing calibration certificates on all their T&M kit so it's an unusual oversight on their part in this instance.
Other than that, everything else was present and correct. The four PP215 probes which I eventually ran a detailed check on some 15 hours after taking delivery when I remembered to thoroughly check every conceivable hiding place for the missing certificate, including the probe packs (leave no stone unturned and all that) were all complete but I did notice a small change of detail compared to the pair of PP215 probes I'd received with the SDS1202X-E. They seem to have decided to do away with the plastic collet that supports the clip on ground fly-lead, leaving a curious gap normally filled by this support collet. All four probes were the same so I have to suppose it was deemed more a hindrance than an aid and simply removed from the BOM.
The plastic wrapping around the scope itself seemed not to have been disturbed as did the box of accessories since it still contained a euro plug ended C13 mains lead along with the A to B usb lead. Presumably Telonic Instruments had simply opened the box to drop a UK C13 mains lead inside to satisfy UK regulatory requirements.
I swapped out my trusty SDS1202X-E (which looks like a toy by comparison) for the SDS2104X+ and connected the two gpsdos and the FY6600's 10MHz Sinc pulse signal to monitor the difference in their phase shifting behaviour in response to the varying electron density of the ionosphere due to the mark 1's use of a 500s TC and the mark 2's 5000s TC relative to a fixed 10MHz reference. My toy AWG has a nice CQE 10MHz OCXO driving a 3N501 clock multiplier to replace the original dirt cheap 50MHz 20ppm SMD XO it had been cursed with. I'm using it as a cheap alternative to a rubidium DOCXO frequency standard with a more deterministic drift behaviour than a budget GPSDO can offer.
With the two channel 'scope, I could only display the GPSDO outputs leaving the external trigger source from the AWG an invisible entity. Now that I have a four channel 'scope, it makes a pleasant change to be able to better visualise the trigger signal. I've attached some screen shots spaced a few minutes apart (the RTC date time stamping wasn't a feature of the 1202 so it's a nice and much welcomed touch).
I haven't run any extensive tests but so far, my experience has been all good and I'm quite impressed by the various design choices such as for example, the use of recessed "Auto setup" and "Default" buttons to minimise the risk of accidental operation (at first glance they looked like they may have been damaged and stuck in the pressed in state but a closer look revealed their true nature soon enough).
Regarding the choice between getting an SDG1032X or the more upmarket SDG2042X, it would be a no brainer choice if Siglent hadn't in their infinite wisdumb decided to drop the the low jitter full BW square wave feature of the SDG 1000X series :( >:( :wtf: |O
I'm going to give this some consideration but I rather think I'll go for the cheaper SDG1032 on the basis that, as a hobbyist, it's best not over investing in future requirements you may only need in five years time when the price of your nice investment may well have halved. Now that I've gotten a taste for higher quality test equipment, I won't be waiting to finish polishing the Feeltech turd to perfection before buying one or the other of Siglent's finest - I've rather changed my mind over that initial statement. ::)
JBG
PS CH1 is the MK II unfiltered square wave output, CH2 is the 10MHz Sinc pulse (which needs to be recalibrated using the 2GT effect on the AWG's OCXO) and CH4 (chosen for convenience of connection) is the sine wave output from the MK I gpsdo. When I manage to get the AWG trimmed within a a few ppt, you can see the GPSDO waveforms dancing an unco-ordinated slow motion jig either side of the Sinc pulse trace. It looks more obvious when you watch a 1 hour movie played back at 32 times speed. :)
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Nice :-+
You mentioned you have a GPSDO
Can you share some information / pics on the unit you have?
I just ordered (Snail Mail) this device from Amazon ...
Any comments / feedback welcomed (don't be too harsh, as its already been dispatched)
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The only item missing from the box being the calibration certificate. I'll contact them tomorrow to let them know and see what their response is.
I know it is only a piece of paper but it does offer reassurance that the 'scope has been through a factory calibration process. Siglent are famous for providing calibration certificates on all their T&M kit so it's an unusual oversight on their part in this instance.
:-//
Every bit of Siglent gear I get has a traceable Cal cert slid into the Quick Start guide.
The plastic wrapping around the scope itself seemed not to have been disturbed as did the box of accessories since it still contained a euro plug ended C13 mains lead along with the A to B usb lead. Presumably Telonic Instruments had simply opened the box to drop a UK C13 mains lead inside to satisfy UK regulatory requirements.
I suspect they have.
If Telonic has opened the box maybe they have the Cal cert and if not insist they get one from the factory.....each and ever one is kept in their records.
Edit with a thought, check under the flaps in the bottom of the carton just in case the Cal cert slid in there.
Regarding the choice between getting an SDG1032X or the more upmarket SDG2042X, it would be a no brainer choice if Siglent hadn't in their infinite wisdumb decided to drop the the low jitter full BW square wave feature of the SDG 1000X series :( >:( :wtf: |O
Where did you read/hear that ?
Website specs are the same as always been. :-//
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If you get 120,000wfm/s with only one setting, it is datasheet marketing BS.
You can´t expect to have it all times, but I´ve expected to measure it at last one time and close to the values of the datasheet.
After several conversation with the support, I can indeed measure 120000wfs/s and a little bit more.
Tomorrow the usb scope will arrive, so I can test the sequence mode also.
The settings I´ve used on the rigol couldn´t be used on the siglent.
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I can indeed measure 120000wfs/s and a little bit more.
[attachimg=1]
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Nice :-+
You mentioned you have a GPSDO
Can you share some information / pics on the unit you have?
I just ordered (Snail Mail) this device from Amazon ...
Any comments / feedback welcomed (don't be too harsh, as its already been dispatched)
I have two GPSDOs, both homebrewed units based on a basic hardware PLL configuration similar to Gyro's design shown here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/my-u-blox-lea-6t-based-gpsdo-(very-scruffy-initial-breadboard-stage)/msg1493431/#msg1493431 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/my-u-blox-lea-6t-based-gpsdo-(very-scruffy-initial-breadboard-stage)/msg1493431/#msg1493431)
In fact my initial solderless breadboard builds were almost exactly that circuit but using an M8N module in place of the LEA 6T and without the cmos RRO buffer amp - the filtered PLL output simply went direct to the VFC pin on my CQE 13 and 10MHz OCXOs.
When it came to my first attempt to build it onto veroboard (stripboard), I'd decided to make full use of the 5v cmos rro opamp to allow me the freedom to use much higher resistor values than the 12 and 100 k resistors Gyro had used to get longer time constants than the 38s TC he'd been running with. I tried 100K and 1M (same cap values) but the loop wouldn't converge onto the target tuning voltage so landed up dropping down to 47 and 220 K to tame the instability in my MK I build. I did eventually get it to work using 100K with 1M then upping to 470K and 5.6M with a 10M bias resistor to allow it to settle within about 25mHz of 10MHz in the unlocked state.
I'd based this MK I version on the "five volt" 13MHz square wave output OCXO which needed an old skool 74193 divide by N counter to divide the doubled up 13MHz (26MHz) down to 2MHz (74HC193s just don't have the jojones to handle such a high input frequency) to feed a 3N501 clock multiplier with this minimum specified input clock frequency to generate the required 10Mz frequency reference.
All of this extra old skool TTL (74193, 7486 and a, probably unnecessary 7427 triple 3 input nor gate thrown into the mix to even up the 2MHz output pulses from the 74193) along with a couple of 3N501 clock multipliers must have added an extra 100mA of very noisy loading on the Mini 360 5v output buck converter I was using to power the M8N gps rx module, logic and the OCXO making the use of veroboard a very poor choice indeed for this application.
Checking the noise and ripple on my well filtered 5v buck converter supply revealed only the TTL power rail noise components, only a very close look at the FFT plots allowed me to spot the almost lost in the noise 1.23MHz switching component on the buck converter's output (and here was I thinking the dc-dc buck converter noise would be an issue ::) :palm: ). I'd included a 5 pole butterworth LPF (Fc of 11.5MHz with an extra inductor across the middle shunt cap to give it a boost at 10MHz) but had to resort to inserting a 10MHz xtal series tuned to reduce the noise and jitter I was seeing on the 10MHz output. The xtal did a good job of sanitising the output of all this TTL noise pollution.
With all of these issues in mind, I decided it was time to build a MK II version without all of the bad design and layout choices I'd made with that MK I. I'd decided to build essentially the same design but using one of my 10MHz 12v OCXOs to eliminate all the TTL tomfoolery of the MK I, removing four ICs at a stroke, halving the IC count to just three 74HC ICs and one dual 5v cmos rro opamp.
The veroboard was replaced with a single sided copper clad board with the intention of mounting the ICs 'dead bug' or 'squashed bug' style. However, with such a low IC count, I decided to drill the board to mount the ICs the right way up, chamfering the holes where I didn't need a ground contact and using point to point wiring on the underside of the copper clad board to join everything up.
It was extra work to build it this way but I do like to be able to see the IC markings and it soon proved useful when it came to replacing the blown 74HC14 that had mysteriously failed a few hours after starting my initial testing in allowing me to fit a dip socket to make any future replacements less of a pain.
I'd simply had no idea why it had failed until two burnt out rro opamps and one overcooked buck converter later finally revealed my design error in upgrading the 10uF cap between ground and the non-inverting input on the rro opamp to a 47uF without considering the possibility of this cap dumping excessive energy into the opamp's input clamp diodes on switch off (it had been just dumb luck that the MK I hadn't suffered the same fate).
Simply including a 1k resistor in series with the non-inverting input pin was all it needed to prevent rro opamp number three going the way of its predecessors :palm: I've had no more mystery failures since then (but I did take the precaution of replacing the 1.3A buck converter with its much tougher 3A rated cousin just to avoid any such further embarrassing failures from a less than perfect overload and over temperature 'protection' so amply demonstrated by the original 1.3A module).
At present, I'm running tests on the MK II sans the LPF filter that will ultimately be installed in the final build (useful at the moment in identifying which 'scope trace is which when comparing the two against my stand in for a Rubidium reference (the FY6600 with its 10MHz OCXO).
I've attached images of my DIY GPSDOs The first shows the initial stage of the mark one's build from last August. The other four show various angles of view of the mark two as set up on my bench. The layouts are almost identical although the final layout of most of the components of the mark one had yet to be determined at this early stage.
I don't have any other photos and I don't want to pull it apart just for another photo shoot - sorry! I may follow up in a few weeks time when I reach the stage where the mark two has been completed allowing me to finally retire the mark one and test that "Five Volt" 13MHz OCXO, to destruction if needed, and prove my suspicions as to it being in reality just another 12 volt OCXO.
The mark one could be powered from any DC voltage within the range of +6.8 to +24 volts and I wanted to retain this feature in the mark two despite the use of a 12v OCXO, hence the additional 5 to 12 boost converter module that can be most clearly seen in the last image.
Working from back to front, that yellow blob upstream of the DC jack socket is a 480uH common mode choke to block any common mode noise conducted from a wallwart. Next is the mini 360 3A buck converter configured to output 5.3v which goes towards the front edge via a 6 element LPF. The 5 to 12v boost converter is mounted at right angles, taking its feed directly from the buck converter's output and passing its 12 output to the OCXO via that 3 turn ferrite inductor (20uH) in the corner formed by the two converter boards.
The use of copper clad board should maximise the efficacy of the LPF components and in spite of the extra dc-dc converter to power the OCXO from the 5v buck converter, the whole unit takes about half a watt less than its predecessor, thanks largely due to the elimination of all the TTL jiggery pokery of converting the 13MHz output from the "Five Volt" OCXO into a 10MHz signal (warmed up both OCXOs consume the same power - just at different voltage levels). The mark one consumed 1.8W off its DC power source (7 to 24 volt range) whilst this mark two version only consumes around 1.3W (yet to be more precisely measured) a drop from 2.7W down to just 2W of mains voltage power consumed by the 12v wallwart supply.
The major shortcoming of such a basic design of GPSDO is in my choice of cheap navigation M8N gps receiver modules. I'm awaiting delivery of a NEO M8T timing module from a Chinese seller on Amazon with the expected delivery being the beginning of August. Hopefully, this will reduce the ionospheric effects on timing accuracy to a more acceptable level if the performance achieved with the old Jupiter T gps modules using a similar hardware only PLL is anything to go by. As they say, "Only time will tell." ::)
As for the BG7TBL GPSDO you've ordered, the last I heard about them, afaicr, was that they'd either been programmed as an FLL with a slight offset error of 15mHz or else there had been a bug in the mathematical algorithm used to PLL discipline the OCXO. That was over a year ago when my resolve to build my own gpsdo was beginning to crumble and I'd started searching for a reasonably priced "Readymade". The issue may now be sorted. Others may have more recent information to offer on this subject.
Whenever I'm looking for anything like this, I always do as much internet research as I can before spending any non-trivial amounts of cash. What renewed my resolve to DIY was largely due to the high price compared to what could be achieved by DIY with well chosen components. The problem in this case was the stupidly high pricing of gps timing receiver modules. Even the Pixhawk boys have cottoned onto the value of the ancient LEA T6 modules that had inexplicably been used in the older Pixhawk drone navigation modules, adding a 100 quid premium onto a 20 quid M8N based Pixhawk which can perform better than the LEA 6T in this navigation centric role.
This NEO M8T I'd tracked down on Amazon was a snip at only 41 quid delivered. If it does prove to be exactly as described, I'll order a second one at that price, assuming the seller has any left to sell by then. GPS timing module bargains seem to be as rare as Unicorn droppings these days, hence my "jumping" at this chance of a reasonably priced M8T. Fingers crossed that it's the real deal.
JBG
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Deskew PCB Version C and other many other TE goodies finally received today. :phew:
First job was very gently Dremel the edge of the 1 turn current loop to allow fitment of a Tek P6021 current probe as they have just a 3.6mm cable capacity whereas the DF2001A deskew PCB has ~4mm current loop and ~0.5mm of PCB wider again.
P6022 is smaller again, only allowing for 2.75mm cable diameter. :o
Not sure I'll narrow the current loop more but instead break the loop at the 49 \$\Omega\$ paralleled resistors and solder in a lose wire with its own resistors. Hmmm, better ideas anyone ?
Anyways, checking one of my P6021's in 2mA/mV setting on the 147mA loop with SDS1104X-E.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1023758)
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Nice :-+
You mentioned you have a GPSDO
Can you share some information / pics on the unit you have?
I just ordered (Snail Mail) this device from Amazon ...
Any comments / feedback welcomed (don't be too harsh, as its already been dispatched)
As for the BG7TBL GPSDO you've ordered, the last I heard about them, afaicr, was that they'd either been programmed as an FLL with a slight offset error of 15mHz or else there had been a bug in the mathematical algorithm used to PLL discipline the OCXO. That was over a year ago when my resolve to build my own gpsdo was beginning to crumble and I'd started searching for a reasonably priced "Readymade". The issue may now be sorted. Others may have more recent information to offer on this subject.
Thanks for your detailed feedback :)
Yes, you are correct - need to do considerable research before - I think from what I have recently seen on the BG7TBL GPSDO - it should perform reasonably well - as long as there is a good GPS signal.
I have also gone down the 'rubidium' rabbit hole - some time ago you could pick up a FE-5680A for about GBP25 - (Dave did a teardown) - but today they are more scarce and prices for reasonable condition units are as high as $200
I am still keeping an 'eye' out for the FE-5680A, for GBP25 - I would love to have an opportunity to experiment.
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Hi,
I have always wanted to have a reasonably good scope at home, but could not really justify the cost of e.g. having my own Tek or Keysight scope. However, the SDS2000XP looks interesting and within reach for my private "equipment budget" ;)
However, it also looks like the accessories are comparatively expensive?! Does anyone have any experience with the €138 bag? Is it really worth it? What about the logic analyzer probes? Is it possible to make a passive adapter for the scope LA connector?
Any recommendation for which distributor to use for sale to Denmark? (Likely a German one)
Thanks!
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Tomorrow the usb scope will arrive, so I can test the sequence mode also.
It does arrive.
Boy....this thing was really pain in the arse the triggering concerns :palm:
I want to make a table of different timebases - But not with THIS one....(Hantek USB Scope).
Nevertheless I can confirm the updaterate in sequential mode. ;)
[attachimg=1]
Measure again the normal mode, it´s more than the counter did measure:
[attachimg=2]
Deadtime of normal mode:
[attachimg=3]
As I told, I want to make wfms/s table, but will this doing with another scope - this hantek crap will be return to sender quickly.. :P
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Hi,
I have always wanted to have a reasonably good scope at home, but could not really justify the cost of e.g. having my own Tek or Keysight scope. However, the SDS2000XP looks interesting and within reach for my private "equipment budget" ;)
Welcome to the forum.
However, it also looks like the accessories are comparatively expensive?!
Not compared to some other brands. :scared:
Does anyone have any experience with the €138 bag? Is it really worth it?
Yes I store and travel all my demo models in them and IMO they provide good protection although as you say they are not very cheap. :(
I asked the factory if we could get the Pelican hard case that Siglent NA offer but it's specific to the US market:
https://siglentna.com/product/hard-shell-carry-case/ (https://siglentna.com/product/hard-shell-carry-case/)
What about the logic analyzer probes? Is it possible to make a passive adapter for the scope LA connector?
The scope LA port is PCI-e but finding a deep reach plug and the nice flex cable is not easy as I had a good look for some a little while back.
I think member TK has some LA cables from another brand that will fit and these are mentioned and offered earlier in this thread.
Any recommendation for which distributor to use for sale to Denmark? (Likely a German one)
Other buyers here have got small discounts and posted about it, again earlier in this thread.
All the EU dealers are listed here:
https://www.siglenteu.com/how-to-buy/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/how-to-buy/)
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@noreply
My pleasure but I did rather get carried away on an off topic tangent even if it does tenuously relate to one use of the SDS2000X Plus. ::)
That M8T module I mentioned, dropped through my letterbox later that morning (yesterday as I type this snippet of news) and I've spent pretty well most of Wednesday (and a bit of Thursday) struggling with Lord Murphy's booby traps. It came attached to an active ceramic patch antenna (23mm by 23mm attached with a 2cm IPEX ended flylead) so I swapped it onto the MK II's FTDI serial to usb converter to check it over. LH reports that its a ublox timing module with FW3.1 firmware but as usual, LH shuts off the power to the active antenna resulting in very low C/N reports.
Further testing with ucentre indicates that the time mode 2 option is actually functioning (unlike when you try this with the M8N modules where there is a half suggestion that they're responding to the time mode 2 commands but with no material advantage being gained).
I'm currently running a survey in operation (set for 10 hours minimum rather than the recommended 24). With luck it might complete by midday (or maybe an hour later at high noon). I'd have started the survey in earlier but as I mentioned, Murphy decided to enforce his law to the maximum in thwarting my planned testing.
The initial setup using the supplied patch antenna gave quite impressive results, it was only when I tried connecting it to the external antenna to see what it was really capable of that I ran into trouble, getting very peculiar results indeed (satellites revealing their existence - elevation and azimuth angles - but no signal strength hence no gps locked PPS output.
In hindsight the temporary wedging of the edge connected SMA socket mustn't have been making a good enough contact for the antenna to draw sufficient current to activate its LNA, effectively preventing the module from seeing any signals at all. However, Murphy threw me yet another curve ball by unfathomably killing the FTDI232 so I was then dealing with two issues compounded shortly after that when I resorted to using the prolific usb to rs232 converter with the third issue of that damned MS Ballpoint serial mouse being invoked to crash the virtual winXP machine I use to run windows only software such as u-blox's ucentre.
I then spent another hour or two reading in an MS victims' forum all about this now twenty year old issue in all versions of windows to date whereby a large proportion of usb connected GPS units get hit by this nonsense, eventually to discover a simple utility to suppress the appearance of this damned ballpoint mouse. Only then did I discover this apparent dislike for nice fat GPS signal levels by the M8T, proved by reconnecting it to the supplied active patch antenna which allowed it to finally start showing signal strength bars, blue at first before ten to twenty minutes later they started turning green and the PPS led went from blinking at 4Hz 50% duty cycle to a 1Hz 10% duty blink rate (no point at this stage to program the 100KHz 50% duty square wave required in the final configuration).
The idea that a good quality signal could overload the front end to the extent of completely blocking all reception just seemed totally nutty to me. Luckily, I had a suitable SMA flylead with iPEX connector to swap for the patch antenna to retest with the external antenna, proving that there had been an issue with the temporarily pushed on SMA edge connector socket (I hadn't wanted to contaminate the module with solder before verifying that it was functioning properly - I'd even used spring test clips to connect to the 4 holes where the typical 4 or 5 pin header is normally soldered for the power and serial interface).
The upshot of my "quick test" is that I'm now out one FTDI232 adapter :( >:( . Ah well, it could have been worse, at one point I thought I'd somehow managed to zap the front end of the M8T module, luckily it was just a lousy contact with that pushed on edge connected SMA socket.
I've just put an order in to BangGood for a pack of five FTDI adapters from their UK warehouse. Slightly dearer than the Chinese warehouse price but that had a £1.59 BangGood express delivery charge slapped on and I couldn't redeem my BangGood points on account of it being a 'promo' item. Ordering from the UK warehouse saved the postage cost and not being a 'promo' item in this case, allowed me to redeem my points which shaved off a few pennies and a couple of weeks delivery time. >:D
The last (and the first) FTDI adapters I'd bought off Ebay had both cost 3 quid delivered. I was disappointed to find that I'd only ordered just the one last month specifically to build the MK II rather buy a few. They're the sort of item that's best regarded as "A Consumable" (at least in my hands which seem so craftily directed by Murphy to remind me that I'm not infallible after all! :palm: ).
I suspect those funky connections to the serial port on the gps module may have caused the fatal damage to the FTDI adapter. As soon as the current lashup with the prolific adapter has served its purpose in allowing me to complete a survey in run, I'll solder a proper header onto the module to minimise the risk of any further 'accident's. :palm:
I've got a little more testing to do before I start placing any more orders for a spare M8T module (or two).
As for the missing calibration certificate, I still haven't had any reply from Telonic on the matter. I'll let it stew for another day or two before pressing them for an answer. As Tautec said (tnx btw) there's no excuse for withholding this piece of documentation from the end customer.
In the meantime, it looks like I'll be 'borrowing' the other FTDI module from the MK I to let me continue testing the MK II with that M8T module. The "stewing time" will simply fly by. ::)
JBG
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As for the missing calibration certificate, I still haven't had any reply from Telonic on the matter. I'll let it stew for another day or two before pressing them for an answer. As Tautec said (tnx btw) there's no excuse for withholding this piece of documentation from the end customer.
JBG
If you get stuck let me know.
Flick me your SN# via PM and I can get a PDF copy from the factory.
Still, at some point I'll need your email so to forward it on to you.
-
Does anyone have any experience with the €138 bag? Is it really worth it?
Yes I store and travel all my demo models in them and IMO they provide good protection although as you say they are not very cheap. :(
I asked the factory if we could get the Pelican hard case that Siglent NA offer but it's specific to the US market:
https://siglentna.com/product/hard-shell-carry-case/ (https://siglentna.com/product/hard-shell-carry-case/)
Thanks, that is a great tip! It looks like a PELI 1520 or PELI Stom iM2450 should fit perfectly. That is almost same price for a robust flight case compared to a nylon cloth bag!
-
Hi John,
short answer to the question regarding SDG2042 (2122) against SDG1032.
I‘m dealing thisdays with my NOS schottky TTLs and a 65 MHz OCXO ( now VC)
to design a by-13-divider with my available ICs to bring it into suitable frequencies to
follow the GSPDO path :box:
The multisim simulation shows a problem above 50MHz I can not there identify.
For a breadboard design test it‘s helpfull to have the SG that goes easy above 60 MHz.
So this is for me the first advantage of my decision for the better and little bit more expensive SG.
And with the SDS as well :-+
For testing on breadboard I built these simple probes:
http://nihtila.com/2019/03/16/tip-3-robust-high-bandwidth-passive-diy-probes/ (http://nihtila.com/2019/03/16/tip-3-robust-high-bandwidth-passive-diy-probes/)
I used selected 1k (0.1%) resistors and than the selectable divider factor (21) of the SDS inputs with 50 ohms
was first time used and appreceated.
btw: do you have a schematics of your MK2 design by the hand?
-
Hi,
We should better stay On-Topic.. :-+
-
I use these
https://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-Electric-Tool-48-22-8425-Large/dp/B0776MCYM8 (https://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-Electric-Tool-48-22-8425-Large/dp/B0776MCYM8)
With foam such as
https://www.amazon.com/Feldherr-FS100R-Bundle-Customizable-Separate-Bottom/dp/B06W5BM2FN (https://www.amazon.com/Feldherr-FS100R-Bundle-Customizable-Separate-Bottom/dp/B06W5BM2FN)
less than 100 bucks and a better case, i actually stack these and cart around multiple pieces on wheels.. real handy for busting out in the field with an inverter and other test gear
-
I‘m dealing thisdays with my NOS schottky TTLs and a 65 MHz OCXO ( now VC)
to design a by-13-divider with my available ICs to bring it into suitable frequencies to
follow the GSPDO path :box:
Hi Unless I have miss understood if you want 10Mhz from 65Mhz you need to divide by 6.5
if you divide by 13 then times which is 5Mhz then double that to get 10Mhz you will also be changing
the error from the 65mhz ocxo ie if your ocxo is say 100ppb the divide will give you better by 13 .but then x 2
will put the error out by a long way as there will be losses in such a large divide and then x2 .
In theory it should work . You will need really good JK flips flops with a high response time on the x 2
Also remember on the VC to use a zero drift op amp to control the voltage control.
Have fun
RNS
-
Hi Martin,
sorry for that detour |O but I think the link with the low cost self made probes can be usefull for
some of us working with digital electronics.
@ labrat: I‘m aware of the problems but it is hobby and learning by doing so let‘s see where it brings me to.
And I never expected to run in problems with this by-13-divider :palm:
-
@ labrat: I‘m aware of the problems but it is hobby and learning by doing so let‘s see where it brings me to.
And I never expected to run in problems with this by-13-divider :palm:
I also did a lot of home experiments on this as well . I found some very good reading on the NIST site how the big guns do it and its basic the same principle as the clock divider 32.768hz divide by 16 to give 1hz good for a second
a year . from a low grade xtal.
I also found that some of those cheesinessy GSPDO are Not as accurate as they say. The numbers on the screen look impressive but are they real . The xtals they use are for sure not certified . But for $100 - $200 they are what they are .
I used there way without GSPDO thinking the standards came before satellite gps . (chicken or the egg came first)
Have Fun Good luck and it will work good
RNS
-
I‘m dealing thisdays with my NOS schottky TTLs and a 65 MHz OCXO ( now VC)
to design a by-13-divider with my available ICs to bring it into suitable frequencies to
follow the GSPDO path :box:
Hi Unless I have miss understood if you want 10Mhz from 65Mhz you need to divide by 6.5
if you divide by 13 then times which is 5Mhz then double that to get 10Mhz you will also be changing
the error from the 65mhz ocxo ie if your ocxo is say 100ppb the divide will give you better by 13 .but then x 2
will put the error out by a long way as there will be losses in such a large divide and then x2 .
In theory it should work . You will need really good JK flips flops with a high response time on the x 2
Also remember on the VC to use a zero drift op amp to control the voltage control.
Have fun
RNS
You can divide all you want, error will stay the same in percentage (ppb) just smaller number of Hz (absolute value)... ^-^
-
I‘m dealing thisdays with my NOS schottky TTLs and a 65 MHz OCXO ( now VC)
to design a by-13-divider with my available ICs to bring it into suitable frequencies to
follow the GSPDO path :box:
Hi Unless I have miss understood if you want 10Mhz from 65Mhz you need to divide by 6.5
if you divide by 13 then times which is 5Mhz then double that to get 10Mhz you will also be changing
the error from the 65mhz ocxo ie if your ocxo is say 100ppb the divide will give you better by 13 .but then x 2
will put the error out by a long way as there will be losses in such a large divide and then x2 .
In theory it should work . You will need really good JK flips flops with a high response time on the x 2
Also remember on the VC to use a zero drift op amp to control the voltage control.
Have fun
RNS
You can divide all you want, error will stay the same in percentage (ppb) just smaller number of Hz (absolute value)... ^-^
Tell Seiko that .. & NIST also work on that as well . The Error is also divided try it .
-
@ labrat: I‘m aware of the problems but it is hobby and learning by doing so let‘s see where it brings me to.
And I never expected to run in problems with this by-13-divider :palm:
I also did a lot of home experiments on this as well . I found some very good reading on the NIST site how the big guns do it and its basic the same principle as the clock divider 32.768hz divide by 16 to give 1hz good for a second
a year . from a low grade xtal.
This is complete and utter nonsense. The error stays the same no matter what kind of dividing you do. And getting such good results from a crystal is only possible through careful charactisation and compensation but you'll still have an aging effect. Furthermore; organisations like NIST aren't using crystals to track UTC but a whole bunch of different clocks (Cesium or better) which then are compared with eachother to figure out which ones are most stable or not to figure out which weighted average between all those clocks provides the most accurate UTC time. And even that wanders around by nanoseconds over a period of several days. Getting this right is a science in itself.
-
As for the missing calibration certificate, I still haven't had any reply from Telonic on the matter. I'll let it stew for another day or two before pressing them for an answer. As Tautec said (tnx btw) there's no excuse for withholding this piece of documentation from the end customer.
JBG
If you get stuck let me know.
Flick me your SN# via PM and I can get a PDF copy from the factory.
Still, at some point I'll need your email so to forward it on to you.
Thank you, I might well take you up on that offer - still no response from Telonic. However, I did get two emails from BG, the first a 'thank you' for the order, the second confirming delivery will be this Monday, Result! :) For us Brits at least, the Chinese warehouse ordering option isn't always the cheapest (in this case a combination of delivery charges and the effect of 'promo' pricing precluding the option to cash any BG points in for a cash discount). If you order anything from BG, check out the alternative warehousing options, if any, to make sure you're not paying extra for the privilege of a four week delay in delivery. >:( >:( >:(
Taking heed of Martin72's advice over keeping topic drift in check (apologies to everyone here), I can offer some initial observations on the subject of this topic thread, namely that my example (the 2104X+) consumes 4W in standby and 55.5W operating (turning channels off or on makes no difference - I haven't tested consumption using the FFT function so far). Also, I noticed that it takes 30 seconds longer to boot up than the 16 seconds boot time of the humble SDS1202X-E after being shutdown from the trace display mode - it takes a few seconds longer if it had been displaying an FFT on the previous shutdown, an effect I'd expect to see with the 2000X+ models when I eventually get to use the FFT features.
@Noreply, I've attached pictures of my hand drawn circuit diagrams for you to peruse. >:D I haven't shown the dc-dc converter details nor labelled which is which but you should be able figure it out. ::) :)
JBG
-
You can decrease phase noise, but not frequency error..
-
The Error is also divided try it .
Can I assume that you can eliminate the error by continuous dividing?
No , It does work quite like that .. its like 22/7 Pi.Never ends.
The error will be smaller to 1012 . in your case
Forget the percentage which is 1/100 which will always look wrong as its a percentage of the last digit (12)
I have run some tests on a cheap 24.000 Mhz xtal Actual 24.00162843
divided it by 12 though my test setup with 2x HP 5385 (Now calibrated) comes out at 2.000135683
May not be to Nasa standards but the error did move by 12 .
I also ran the same test with 2 certified 20mhz ocxo @ 0.02ppb (New) the division by 2 before 20.0000000002 after 10.0000000001 .
Come to your own conclusion ^-^
-
Maybe a mod could separate the offtopic into a new thread - It´s interesting but in my opinion, it´s worth a own thread.
-
The Error is also divided try it .
Can I assume that you can eliminate the error by continuous dividing?
No , It does work quite like that .. its like 22/7 Pi.Never ends.
The error will be smaller to 1012 . in your case
Forget the percentage which is 1/100 which will always look wrong as its a percentage of the last digit (12)
I have run some tests on a cheap 24.000 Mhz xtal Actual 24.00162843
divided it by 12 though my test setup with 2x HP 5385 (Now calibrated) comes out at 2.000135683
May not be to Nasa standards but the error did move by 12 .
I also ran the same test with 2 certified 20mhz ocxo @ 0.02ppb (New) the division by 2 before 20.0000000002 after 10.0000000001 .
Come to your own conclusion ^-^
You are wrong. The relative error (which is the only thing that counts) stays the same.
-
And.....if I'm not mistaken.....tv84's remark was ironic, reasoning by the absurd.
-
Thanks to Martin again.
To end this off-topic issue. I‘m aware of all the jitter problems.
If I really need a GPSDO I will buy the Leo Bodnar one with so many good
reviews and not this china crap with old XOs.
My problem was not the design of a divider-per-13, it is the quest to find the working
solution with the ICs on the shelf I have by the hand. (some NOS Tesla Schottky TTL ICs,
and this Tesla dosn‘t belong to Elon Musk, it‘s a Checz manufacturer in the eighties)
It is my hobby not my job :palm:
-
The Error is also divided try it .
Can I assume that you can eliminate the error by continuous dividing?
No , It does work quite like that .. its like 22/7 Pi.Never ends.
The error will be smaller to 1012 . in your case
Forget the percentage which is 1/100 which will always look wrong as its a percentage of the last digit (12)
I have run some tests on a cheap 24.000 Mhz xtal Actual 24.00162843
divided it by 12 though my test setup with 2x HP 5385 (Now calibrated) comes out at 2.000135683
May not be to Nasa standards but the error did move by 12 .
I also ran the same test with 2 certified 20mhz ocxo @ 0.02ppb (New) the division by 2 before 20.0000000002 after 10.0000000001 .
Come to your own conclusion ^-^
You are wrong. The relative error (which is the only thing that counts) stays the same.
Can you give A true working example of your statement that proves you right.
-
As for the missing calibration certificate, I still haven't had any reply from Telonic on the matter. I'll let it stew for another day or two before pressing them for an answer. As Tautec said (tnx btw) there's no excuse for withholding this piece of documentation from the end customer.
JBG
If you get stuck let me know.
Flick me your SN# via PM and I can get a PDF copy from the factory.
Still, at some point I'll need your email so to forward it on to you.
Thank you, I might well take you up on that offer - still no response from Telonic.
No worry, just when you need it.....
.............
Purposely removing OT content..... ::)
I can offer some initial observations on the subject of this topic thread, namely that my example (the 2104X+) consumes 4W in standby and 55.5W operating (turning channels off or on makes no difference - I haven't tested consumption using the FFT function so far). Also, I noticed that it takes 30 seconds longer to boot up than the 16 seconds boot time of the humble SDS1202X-E after being shutdown from the trace display mode - it takes a few seconds longer if it had been displaying an FFT on the previous shutdown, an effect I'd expect to see with the 2000X+ models when I eventually get to use the FFT features.
Hardly surprising when comparing their overall feature sets.
OTOH a brand spanking new 2kX Plus ex factory unboxed yesterday for company sticker placement and probe compensation seemed somewhat quieter than the only one other I've had through my hands.
Those impressions had it a bit noisier than 5kX which has a smart fan controller but we have had one 2kX+ FW update that may have added fan control however it wasn't mentioned in the release notes. :-//
Todays trial will have 2kX+ and 5kX running alongside one another for a better judge of noise levels of each......
@Noreply,
And all........see how PM's might work for ya'all :horse:
-
The Error is also divided try it .
Can I assume that you can eliminate the error by continuous dividing?
No , It does work quite like that .. its like 22/7 Pi.Never ends.
The error will be smaller to 1012 . in your case
Forget the percentage which is 1/100 which will always look wrong as its a percentage of the last digit (12)
I have run some tests on a cheap 24.000 Mhz xtal Actual 24.00162843
divided it by 12 though my test setup with 2x HP 5385 (Now calibrated) comes out at 2.000135683
May not be to Nasa standards but the error did move by 12 .
I also ran the same test with 2 certified 20mhz ocxo @ 0.02ppb (New) the division by 2 before 20.0000000002 after 10.0000000001 .
Come to your own conclusion ^-^
You are wrong. The relative error (which is the only thing that counts) stays the same.
Can you give A true working example of your statement that proves you right.
Just calculate the absolute error when dividing the frequencies down to 1 second and use it for a digital clock (to show the time). It doesn't matter if you start with 1GHz +10ppm or 100Hz +10ppm; the resulting clock will run with the same error. In both cases the clock will be ahead by one second every 1.26 days.
-
Can you give A true working example of your statement that proves you right.
So you want us to prove you that elementary school math is correct... That's precious... :-DD
Read this..
https://www.eetimes.com/perfect-timing-performing-clock-division-with-jitter-and-phase-noise-measurements/ (https://www.eetimes.com/perfect-timing-performing-clock-division-with-jitter-and-phase-noise-measurements/)
And with apologies to everybody, this will be me my last offtopic post here.
If you want a detailed discussion, open a topic; i will join and explain math to you, no problem. Just not here, please..
-
Hi John,
short answer to the question regarding SDG2042 (2122) against SDG1032.
I‘m dealing thisdays with my NOS schottky TTLs and a 65 MHz OCXO ( now VC)
to design a by-13-divider with my available ICs to bring it into suitable frequencies to
follow the GSPDO path :box:
The multisim simulation shows a problem above 50MHz I can not there identify.
For a breadboard design test it‘s helpfull to have the SG that goes easy above 60 MHz.
So this is for me the first advantage of my decision for the better and little bit more expensive SG.
And with the SDS as well :-+
For testing on breadboard I built these simple probes:
http://nihtila.com/2019/03/16/tip-3-robust-high-bandwidth-passive-diy-probes/ (http://nihtila.com/2019/03/16/tip-3-robust-high-bandwidth-passive-diy-probes/)
I used selected 1k (0.1%) resistors and than the selectable divider factor (21) of the SDS inputs with 50 ohms
was first time used and appreceated.
btw: do you have a schematics of your MK2 design by the hand?
I see your need for a function generator with a wider than 65MHz BW but the SDG2000X series max out at 25MHz for square waves so you'll obviously be using the sine wave output for your tests. If you look at the MK I's circuit diagram, you'll note the use of a 74193 to divide by 13. In this case I had to double the 13MHz to 26MHz just so the 2MHz output met the minimum clock input frequency requirement for the final times 5 clock multiplier used to generate the 10MHz locked to the 13MHz OCXO's output.
Even so, I had to select my 74193 carefully to get this to work at all (none of my HC193s were good enough for this job - believe me, I tested my whole stock of HC193s before resorting to the old skool 74193 - hence the 16 pin dip socket on the board).
Whereas I've had to double up to 26MHz to satisfy the clock multiplier's minimum input frequency requirement, you're going to have to divide that 65MHz down to a more manageable 32.5MHz before feeding it into your divide by 13 modulo N counter for a 2.5MHz output you can multiply back up to the required 10MHz (I hope you have a reasonable quantity of '193s to pick from :) ). After my own experience with the MK I, I'd recommend against dividing a 65MHz OCXO output down to 10MHz for GPSDO use other than as a "Fun Learning Project" (fvsvo "Fun").
I suspect the issue with the multisim simulation was it recognising the input clock speed limits of the 74S logic family. I tried to look for a datasheet on a 74S193 to check this but I don't think any '193s were ever manufactured in this logic family. Even so, I suspect even a 74S193, if any ever existed, would struggle with such a high frequency input clock as 65MHz, hence my suggestions above.
Until around 18 months ago, I didn't know that any other type of 10:1 and 20:1 passive probe than the classic "Low impedance" type described in that article even existed. ::) These new fangled High impedance 'scope probes rather disturbed my engineering sensibilities when I first came across them with my first modern DSO purchase :o. Anyway, I've gotten over the shock (of the new) now. They're fine for the job as long as you keep in mind that a 200MHz rated Hi-Z 'scope probe is only good for a 10MHz or so bandwidth when switched to 1:1 (x 1 position). >:D
Since I'm now expecting to take delivery of a bunch of FTDI232 adapters this Monday, I won't be cannibalising the MK I for its FTDI module this week after all. It is scheduled to be dismantled to recycle its components back to my spares bin - in a week or two's time, just not this week is all.
JBG
-
Hi,
We should better stay On-Topic.. :-+
Agreed! :-[ :palm:
JBG
-
Finally, I would appreciate this... ;)
-
FWIW, I also received an SDS2104X+ (and a SDG2042X) from Telonic on Monday, and, as with JBG, no cal certificates were included. I've emailed (today) to see if they can be supplied but I'm not holding my breath. So, are cal certificates included as the norm with Siglent equipment, or is this something distributers do (or don't do)? I can't believe they have been removed (too much effort!), so I tend to think they were never there in the first place.
-
The second one without having the cal-sheet, makes me curious if I got one...
Open the package, I got one.
It was folded and stucked inbetween the quick start guide.... 8)
-
Martin72, I was taking a look at your schematic for the deskew fixture and I think the current loops are in the wrong location. Shouldn't they be under the voltage probe nodes?
The more I look at this, I'm also wondering if we could just make a cheaper version with a terminal block where you could connect a wire and loop it as many times as you wanted. Seems simple enough. The only thing I'm not sure of is why the two loops have different voltages at their test points? The large loop has 2.5V and the small 3.5V at the voltage point. Is there a reason for this difference?
Also it looks like Siglent copied the Keysight fixture since the small loop is labeled 147mA, but I calculate it out to be 143mA. :-//
-
Hi Steve,
Shouldn't they be under the voltage probe nodes?
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
For me they do ?
-
I mean they should be under the voltage probe node and the R22/R23 and the same for the large loop. Currently they are on top of the voltage probe node in the schematic, so when the FET is conducting, current is still being sensed in the loop as drawn on the schematic, but the board doesn't look like it's that way. On the actual board, when the FET is conducting, you should get no current through the loop.
Hope that makes sense. If not, I can draw out what I mean.
-
Hi Steve,
On the actual board, when the FET is conducting, you should get no current through the loop.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3137612/#msg3137612 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3137612/#msg3137612)
Maybe I get you wrong as english was not my "mother language", but I will examine the board tomorrow again.
-
In the picture here, I've modified your schematic to show what I mean. You can see on the PCB, the red line is where the current flows when the FET is conducting, and the blue line when the FET is not. I hope this helps. :)
[attach=1][attach=2]
-
Hi Steve,
On the actual board, when the FET is conducting, you should get no current through the loop.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3137612/#msg3137612 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3137612/#msg3137612)
Maybe I get you wrong as english was not my "mother language", but I will examine the board tomorrow again.
Steve is partially right, mosfet should short top resistor to the ground. You take voltage out from bottom resistor. Current loop in the middle.
-
Hi Steve,
Seems to make sense, check this finally "tomorrow", then correct it if it needs, will give feedback then.
Martin
-
Lt spice of the mosfet /loop part
-
FWIW, I also received an SDS2104X+ (and a SDG2042X) from Telonic on Monday, and, as with JBG, no cal certificates were included. I've emailed (today) to see if they can be supplied but I'm not holding my breath.
Welcome to the forum.
That's inexcusable IMO but I cannot speak for other resellers on this matter as it maybe their policy decision. :-//
So, are cal certificates included as the norm with Siglent equipment, or is this something distributers do (or don't do)? I can't believe they have been removed (too much effort!), so I tend to think they were never there in the first place.
EVERY unit I import includes a Cal cert and they are dispatched with it and without exception !
As resellers we might hold stock for some months before sale and particularly now as airfreight is cost prohibitive so it is not as straightforward as it once was to get fresh units from the factory however all this depends on your location as to whether you are served from the factory directly as I am or from one of Siglents branches where they have been supplied by seafreight and then units are further shipped on to authorized resellers and then to the buyer.
In the above scenario a buyers receipt of an instrument might have the 1yr Cal cert approaching expiry and some reason why resellers chose to omit Cal certs so to not disclose if it's old stock or not. ::)
From our POV it's now even harder to judge the marketplace on what and how much we might order and mainly due to 2 factors, the Covid impact on spending budgets and the recent difficulties of stock resupply.
However until recently (IDK when), Cal certs were single side printed on A4 paper but latest are double side printed to include a 180 day NO USE exception to the Cal cert expiry date which IMO is a very welcome addition specifying that time spent shipping or being held in stock won't affect Cal accuracy for 180 days since Calibration.
Attached is a pic of the rear side of the latest Cal cert where you can see how this exception is explained and now we have this there is no good reason why Cal certs are not shipped from resellers with new units.
-
I've never had any siglent hardware not come with a cert paper ???
-
Me too.
-
I only have sdg6000X from Siglent and that one came with cert.
-
I m sure Tautech should be able to advise if you can view these via a factory database possibly?
-
I m sure Tautech should be able to advise if you can view these via a factory database possibly?
View ? :-//
Working on getting copies of the originals ! ;)
GM in Germany notified and chasing this up.
-
Hi Steve,
Seems to make sense, check this finally "tomorrow", then correct it if it needs, will give feedback then.
Martin
Thank you Steve, indeed I must correct it:
[attach=1]
The full schematic see below (change txt to sch, eagle format)
Martin
-
First job was very gently Dremel the edge of the 1 turn current loop to allow fitment of a Tek P6021 current probe as they have just a 3.6mm cable capacity whereas the DF2001A deskew PCB has ~4mm current loop and ~0.5mm of PCB wider again.
P6022 is smaller again, only allowing for 2.75mm cable diameter. :o
Two possibilities imho:
You cut of a little piece of the layer and solder a flexible wire over it.
Or you cut a piece out and solder a massive wire of say 2mm diameter between the edges, see below.
-
Yep, that looks allright...
-
First job was very gently Dremel the edge of the 1 turn current loop to allow fitment of a Tek P6021 current probe as they have just a 3.6mm cable capacity whereas the DF2001A deskew PCB has ~4mm current loop and ~0.5mm of PCB wider again.
P6022 is smaller again, only allowing for 2.75mm cable diameter. :o
Two possibilities imho:
You cut of a little piece of the layer and solder a flexible wire over it.
Or you cut a piece out and solder a massive wire of say 2mm diameter between the edges, see below.
A third based on #2.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1025870)
Drill holes through the PCB current loop trace either side of the cut then fit and solder wire for better strain relief. :)
Fine idea Martin and briefly looked at the PCB again today while a buddy was here and looking at all the shiny new stuff that's arrived. He spent some time using a 2104X Plus and was pretty impressed so I just gotta get him to part with his DS4000 first. :horse:
-
Does anyone know why the voltages in the deskew fixture are set to 2.5V pk-pk for the large loop and 3.5V pk-pk for the small loop? I was thinking of making my own with only one loop (actually a coil of wire that you can change), but I'm not sure what to set the voltage to. Does it matter?
-
Does anyone know why the voltages in the deskew fixture are set to 2.5V pk-pk for the large loop and 3.5V pk-pk for the small loop? I was thinking of making my own with only one loop (actually a coil of wire that you can change), but I'm not sure what to set the voltage to. Does it matter?
The p-p doesn't matter much at all only the nice sharp rise times for accurate deskew.
In PA mode deskew is automated but you can do it manually easily enough by just increasing the timebase and adjusting channel skew so the rising edge of both current and voltage probes cross the trigger point as close as you can get them.
Not at all hard. :)
-
Just for fun I took my Ascel milliohm meter and measure the "loops".
As the values vary a little bit because of not ideal contact, the 1 loop vs 8 loops are vaild.
8 loops are appx 155 m \$\Omega\$, 1 loop appx 18...19m \$\Omega\$ .
As I said, just for fun. ;)
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Just for fun I took my Ascel milliohm meter and measure the "loops".
As the values vary a little bit because of not ideal contact, the 1 loop vs 8 loops are vaild.
8 loops are appx 155 m \$\Omega\$, 1 loop appx 18...19m \$\Omega\$ .
As I said, just for fun. ;)
You know enough now to completely recreate it and just get pcbs correctly sized to align your smaller probes instead of chewing up the stock one
I'd done it already if i wasnt buried under projects lol.. no time for fun time but at least i got a job in this economy... i should have moved to canada before the border was shut down
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Just for fun I took my Ascel milliohm meter and measure the "loops".
As the values vary a little bit because of not ideal contact, the 1 loop vs 8 loops are vaild.
8 loops are appx 155 m \$\Omega\$, 1 loop appx 18...19m \$\Omega\$ .
As I said, just for fun. ;)
You know enough now to completely recreate it and just get pcbs correctly sized to align your smaller probes instead of chewing up the stock one
I'd done it already if i wasnt buried under projects lol.. no time for fun time but at least i got a job in this economy... i should have moved to canada before the border was shut down
He's probably waiting on me... :-DD
I have it reverse engineered for some time, but waiting to buy current probe myself..
But I'm equally busy as you are... And also grateful that there is work despite the plague...
I also wanted to do it in Kicad (to learn and make it more open) but that thing is not my friend either...
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He's probably waiting on me... :-DD
I have it reverse engineered for some time, but waiting to buy current probe myself..
But I'm equally busy as you are... And also grateful that there is work despite the plague...
I also wanted to do it in Kicad (to learn and make it more open) but that thing is not my friend either...
I tried Kicad once.. seemed alright but never really go into it.. im just another altium whore and already know its command set, i'd rather do an export lol
What probe do you got your eye on?
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My plan was to make a small board allowing for adjustable frequency and a 2-pin terminal block where you could connect a small wire and loop it as many times as you wanted. One loop would be 125mA. Would there be any issues with this approach?
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You know enough now to completely recreate it and just get pcbs correctly sized to align your smaller probes instead of chewing up the stock one
It was tautech who had problems with it. 8)
I already got a fixure and I´ve drwan the schematic for those, who want to build one instead of wasting so much money.
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My plan was to make a small board allowing for adjustable frequency and a 2-pin terminal block where you could connect a small wire and loop it as many times as you wanted. One loop would be 125mA. Would there be any issues with this approach?
I don´t think so, but keep in mind that loops are inductives, so you should take care of ringing (therefore, in my opinion, there are two different gate resistors in the schematic).
Adjustable frequency reminds me of my nice to have breadboard "de luxe:"
[attachimg=1]
Also simple using a 555 circuit, but you have squarewaves up to 100khz on board.
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My plan was to make a small board allowing for adjustable frequency and a 2-pin terminal block where you could connect a small wire and loop it as many times as you wanted. One loop would be 125mA. Would there be any issues with this approach?
I don´t think so, but keep in mind that loops are inductives, so you should take care of ringing (therefore, in my opinion, there are two different gate resistors in the schematic).
Adjustable frequency reminds me of my nice to have breadboard "de luxe:"
(Attachment Link)
Also simple using a 555 circuit, but you have squarewaves up to 100khz on board.
Well said, and dip switches are nice touch. Deskew fixtures usually don't have variable frequency, like with scope cal signal it's not needed... But it can't hurt...
EDIT.. variable, not stable.. :palm:
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I have some parts on order to try some things out, but I think it would be pretty simple and would provide a fixed range of about 355Hz - 24kHz. I'm not to sure on how to calculate or determine the gate resistor into the MOSFET though. Do you think I can just put in something like the 475R resistor and it would be ok in most cases?
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I have some parts on order to try some things out, but I think it would be pretty simple and would provide a fixed range of about 355Hz - 24kHz. I'm not to sure on how to calculate or determine the gate resistor into the MOSFET though. Do you think I can just put in something like the 475R resistor and it would be ok in most cases?
Depends on the fet, check it's datasheet, usually there is a calculation page for what to drive it with, its not so much the resistor as it is you want to control the current flow and voltage arriving at the gate.. that will then tell you what resistor to use
One other thing.. i usually like to have small trimmer pots for these that is around the value instead of a fixed resistor.. this gives you some tunability while you are exploring the circuit for what you want
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I have some parts on order to try some things out, but I think it would be pretty simple and would provide a fixed range of about 355Hz - 24kHz. I'm not to sure on how to calculate or determine the gate resistor into the MOSFET though. Do you think I can just put in something like the 475R resistor and it would be ok in most cases?
I don't know if a range of current loop frequencies is really even necessary. :-//
If we think back decades to the old legacy Tek models they often used a current loop in their probe compensation output which doubled for setting up current probes and like voltage probes it was just 1 KHz.
These deskew fixtures like the old Tek loops primarily offer a rising edge and flat top which provide an edge for channel skew adjustment and a fixed amplitude for obtaining attenuation factors.
Sure things have moved on from those days in terms of frequencies we might encounter hence the 22 KHz of the Siglent deskew unit which today some might consider to be a bit low but really how might another frequency effect skew of channels resulting from different probes on the same signal source ?
Bugger all I would suggest unless you're approaching the frequency limits of some POS probe.
Risetime nulling between probes is our primary concern here plus a known current output so to set current probe attenuation correctly.
IMHO frequency is of a much lesser concern.
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Most important is clean monotonic edge (as linear as possible, or at least with identical current and voltage shape) and flat top....
Going too fast might be counterproductive.
It is not used to verify frequency response... For that you need different fixture..
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Do you think I can just put in something like the 475R resistor and it would be ok in most cases?
There must be reasons why siglent use different gate resistors on one turn/ eight turn loop.
My guess is, using a higher resistor value in the 8 turns schematic makes the fet switching "slower" because of the greater inductance of the loop.
If I would have here finally a current probe ( hello batronix, where is my new micsig? ), I would change the 475R into 150R and see what happening to the signal.
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Just a quick Telonic cal certificate update (I don't like to interrupt the entirely more interesting deskew-fixture chat).
I received a reply from Telonic to my email of Friday enquiring about calibration certificates, or the lack thereof. Apparently they don't send them out as a rule but are happy to provide a pdf of them, so they have sent that through to me for both my new toys - the SDS2000X+ and the SDG2042X. Whilst it is less than desirable to have to chase up that information, and if they are included as standard I am bewildered as to why you would bother to remove them, I'm happy to have an electronic copy. Many thanks for everyone's advice.
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That is utterly bizarre... part of the cost you are paying for is that cert proof....
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There is one area in particular changing the switching frequency would be good for and that is if you are doing something say like a boost converter.. in general though likely to almost always be close enough less you are doing studies and need to actually calculate error to that degree but if that is the case good chance you are already using something else
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FWIW, I also received an SDS2104X+ (and a SDG2042X) from Telonic on Monday, and, as with JBG, no cal certificates were included. I've emailed (today) to see if they can be supplied but I'm not holding my breath. So, are cal certificates included as the norm with Siglent equipment, or is this something distributers do (or don't do)? I can't believe they have been removed (too much effort!), so I tend to think they were never there in the first place.
I received an email from Karen (I'd ccd her in a second email to Becky about the missing certificate) with a pdf of the certificate attached (a two page pdf showing the 180 day provision).
This was what she told me, and I quote:-
"We don't send the calibration certificate as a rule as there are no results, but happy to send as and when customers request.
Please find yours attached."
I duly thanked her and left the question, which her statement had begged over the actual source of the paper certificates most recipients have found packed with Siglent products, unasked. In short, who is actually packing these printed certificates in with boxed Siglent products? Is it done in the Siglent factory or by their regional agents? That cryptic statement seems to suggest the latter rather than the former.
JBG
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Factory.. i get sealed boxes and they are always in the packet... dunno.. i'd probly not use that vendor again
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I wonder why your calibration "protocol" wasn´t in your package included.
But...
Personally I don´t give a thing about this one piece of paper.
What does it "say" ?
Nothing.
The first thing we ( in the company I work for) do when we buy new equipment, we let them calibrate.
And then it returns with a proper calibration protocol and not only one piece of paper which says nothing.
I got the certificate in my package, but if not, I won´t worry about it.
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FWIW, I also received an SDS2104X+ (and a SDG2042X) from Telonic on Monday, and, as with JBG, no cal certificates were included. I've emailed (today) to see if they can be supplied but I'm not holding my breath. So, are cal certificates included as the norm with Siglent equipment, or is this something distributers do (or don't do)? I can't believe they have been removed (too much effort!), so I tend to think they were never there in the first place.
I received an email from Karen (I'd ccd her in a second email to Becky about the missing certificate) with a pdf of the certificate attached (a two page pdf showing the 180 day provision).
This was what she told me, and I quote:-
"We don't send the calibration certificate as a rule as there are no results, but happy to send as and when customers request.
Please find yours attached."
I duly thanked her and left the question, which her statement had begged over the actual source of the paper certificates most recipients have found packed with Siglent products, unasked. In short, who is actually packing these printed certificates in with boxed Siglent products? Is it done in the Siglent factory or by their regional agents? That cryptic statement seems to suggest the latter rather than the former.
JBG
JBG/all
Germany Siglent GM mailed me explaining Cal certs on a EU few units were omitted at the factory.
He was sorting it when we last mailed one another last week.
If required I can you connect those of you missing Cal certs to the German GM as offered previously.
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FWIW, I also received an SDS2104X+ (and a SDG2042X) from Telonic on Monday, and, as with JBG, no cal certificates were included. I've emailed (today) to see if they can be supplied but I'm not holding my breath.
Welcome to the forum.
That's inexcusable IMO but I cannot speak for other resellers on this matter as it maybe their policy decision. :-//
So, are cal certificates included as the norm with Siglent equipment, or is this something distributers do (or don't do)? I can't believe they have been removed (too much effort!), so I tend to think they were never there in the first place.
EVERY unit I import includes a Cal cert and they are dispatched with it and without exception !
====snipped====
The certificate I received this Monday afternoon from Karen@telonic had a calibrated date of 2020-06-22 just a mere three weeks before I took delivery of the 'scope.
From the wording of that email, it looks like they've taken advantage of the need to open the box to chuck in a UK plug ended C13 mains lead to remove the certificate since they're not receiving any extra revenue from their customers to re-calibrate these Siglent products after the initial calibration period has expired.
If that's actually the case here (ICBW), I think it's just a touch disingenuous of them to be removing these certificates from the packaging. I rather doubt Siglent would be favourably impressed by this practice if they were to get wind of it. After all, the very inclusion of these calibration certificates acts as an additional selling point whenever a youtube reviewer unpacks a shiny new Siglent product and comments favourably about the fact one is supplied with every brand new Siglent product they've received thus far.
The one year validity isn't explicitly stated but rather implied by the examples given to work out how to apply the up to 180 day grace period between the factory calibration date and the date of receipt and first use of the equipment concerned. In my case, that means the original certification is good until 2021-07-13.
I suspect most, if not all, hobby users would be more concerned over getting their Siglent kit repaired rather than have its calibration re-certified. >:D
JBG
P.S I've just taken a very close look at that pdf they sent. The 180 day grace period notice was on the first page with the actual certification details on the second page. I could see a faint suggestion of a crease line on the first page with the second page seemingly absent any such when viewing the document at the "Fit to Page" view setting.
Zooming in confirms that it is a very carefully aligned high resolution photocopy of a paper document. It was only by zooming in that the suspicious marks became all too obvious as crease marks both front and back. It seems that Telonic are doing just what I was suspecting to be the case after all. What I can't figure out is what the benefit is to Telonic in pursuing such a practice as implied by that email response I received from Karen.
I suppose it's always possible that the perfectly aligned high quality photocopy is all Siglent's work (print off a batch of calibration forms to match the serial numbers of the product being tested and then photocopy the completed forms for their own records). Telonic may have simply not checked that a certificate had actually been packed inside the box and merely requested a copy from siglent to satisfy my request for one. Even so, that was a rather lame excuse proffered to explain its absence. :-//
Never mind, if truth be known, it will simply remain filed somewhere safe, never to be viewed again, just like I did with the SDS1202X-E certificate, except in this case, it isn't cluttering up the original packaging. ::)
JBG
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*** BEGIN RANT ***
It’s amazing how much value people put in a piece of paper.
Whereas often the paper is not worth anything itself contrary to popular belief.
It’s the spirit of the agreement or purpose of the document which holds all of the value of the ‘paper’ and not the paper itself.
For those of you who think the above sounds like a lot of ballocks, then let’s look as some examples to prove the above statement(s).
1. The most important piece of paper we all come across is – money. Why is THIS piece of paper ‘worth’ anything? It’s not the intrinsic piece of paper itself – but the people and spirit which lies behind the piece of paper – in this case ‘money’. It is BACKED by HMG and they promise to honour its value (whatever is printed on it) to the bearer of the piece of paper.
2. Another piece of paper most important to us – a property title. Long time ago – this was a beautiful looking document – something of great value to the person holding it. But, in reality its once again worthless on its own – only paper – the real value lies in the ‘system’ which protects your rights of what is written on the paper – the spirit of the document – which is defended by HMG and the registration system which validates the paper’s value in definition and not sole existence. Today – the value of such a piece of paper is further diminished, because property titles exist as entries on a database (again honored by HMG) – the ‘paper’ is just a record that such an entry was made on your behalf.
3. A contract between two parties can be considered as an important business document one would think. If I lose this piece of ‘paper’, then the relationship between the two parties could be severed or jeopardized in some ghastly way? Again, totally misguided assumption – the paper is worthless. Any business contract is only worth as much as the spirit of the agreement between the two parties. If either party does not want to honor its commitment to the contract – the contract will fail – without exception. Oh, but I have a contract and can take legal action against you, if you do not honor our agreement. Sure you can do this – but you don’t change the fact – that the paper- yes PAPER – has no value. What has value is the implied agreement as seen in the eyes of the law or whoever the underwriters of the agreement were – it is they who make the paper worth something.
More and more examples can be given – but I hope the above three examples are sufficient to demonstrate the point I try to make in my opening statement – that the paper is often not worth anything – it’s ALWAYS the spirit of what the paper conveys and more importantly the people behind what is written on the paper itself.
Given the above, what is the intrinsic value of a CALIBRATION CERTIFICATE from Siglent?
1. You want this piece of paper – because you want to ‘trust’ your test equipment to perform within the specifications claims of the manufacturer right? So you receive a nicely printed document, which clearly identifies the test equipment you have purchased and has a unique serial number – further confirming that the ‘paper’ relates to the physical device in your possession. Now you look at the paper where it states that an Agilent or Keysight or R&S instrument with its own unique identifier serial number, also shown on this piece of paper, was used to make a measurement on YOUR PURCHASED test equipment, which in turn confirms that your purchased equipment is indeed within the ‘specifications’ issued by the manufacturer – Siglent in this case. Of cause the equipment which was used to calibrate YOUR equipment was itself calibrated and on your piece of paper – it stated the ‘calibration’ dates of the 3rd party equipment used to calibrate YOUR equipment – all this is checked and signed by Mr WANG (made up name by me for the sake of this discussion), the senior test engineer in charge of Siglent ‘calibration certificates’ issuing department, sealed with Siglent company stamp and date of issue. WOW, that’s really impressive – you say to yourself. I now know that my new test equipment is fully calibrated and tested. I can rest in peace – knowing it’s all good! BUT do you REALLY know it’s all good?
2. How do you know that the 3rd party equipment – used to calibrate YOUR equipment was calibrated in the first place? – just because Mr WANG told you? – did Mr. WANG include the 3rd party equipment’s calibration certificate with YOUR calibration certificate? Do you trust Mr. WANG?
3. I hope you can see where I am going with this – the whole calibration certification process – is in essence a deep rabbit hole. Again demonstrating that the ‘paper’ whatever it’s called – in this case ‘calibration certificate’ is worthless without the trust and support of the people behind it!
After all of the above preamble, I can finally get to the main point I wish to make.
Siglent made the ‘test equipment’ you bought – and I presume they stand behind their product.
You bought your ‘test equipment’ from Telonic – and I know (not presume because I have prior experience to allow me to say this) that they will stand behind the product they sold you.
In both of the above ‘your guarantee’ are the PEOPLE and companies behind the people and not the paper issued by them. (Telonic AND Siglent)
If you did not receive a calibration certificate or the certificate you received looks ‘dodgy’ – it’s irrelevant – if the people behind the product you purchase confirm that the device was calibrated – then that’s good – it’s worth more than the ‘paper’ – because paper is paper and not the spirit of the certification and people behind it.
Like I said the calibration process is a rabbit hole – even if you got all the certificates you wanted – all signed and not ‘dodgy looking’ – how do you REALLY know the device was calibrated?
Well, if you are fortunate to have some ‘better’ equipment that you trust, you can check yourself.
After your ‘own testing’ you find its calibrated – as specified – you are now ‘happy’ we all move on!
OR
After your ‘own testing’ you find its NOT calibrated to specifications – you are NOT happy – despite what the ‘calibration certificate’ states – you believe – via your testing, that the equipment is NOT calibrated!
So what do you do?
Shout at the piece of paper which Mr. WANG issued – yelling all sorts of dislikes and comments?
Probably not – because it’s a piece of paper only.
You will most likely call Telonic and explain that you did some tests and found that your newly purchased Siglent equipment is not performing to specifications and might not be calibrated correctly – asking them – Karen in your case – to help you resolve this.
Guess what Telonic (or any other Siglent distributor) will do?
They will take note of all your comments and concerns about the equipment and ensure it is rectified to ‘specifications’ – because BOTH the distributor and the Manufacturer has given this implicit commitment – all despite the ‘piece of paper’ called the calibration certificate.
I hope that my little rant does not create offence – it certainly is not intended to do this.
The whole purpose of this ‘rant’ was to demonstrate that we ALL should not be bothered with too many ‘paper’ guarantees – the paper is worthless in every case – it’s the people / companies and spirit behind the paper that really makes the difference.
Buying something from china direct – with a guarantee certificate in the box – the piece of paper included with your product - is not as good as buying something from a UK Siglent distributor without a guarantee certificate included the box.
Why?
Because you can trust a Siglent distributor better than an unheard and unknown entity who sold you a product from a distant land.
I hope this point is understood in our quest for ‘calibration certificates’ and the potential rabbit holes (yes multiple holes) they create.
Finally, for anyone who likes to keep paper rather than have the support of the people behind the paper – then you should ask Siglent to ‘reprint’ the calibration document files on their database when they calibrated your test equipment and send this to you.
After you receive this ‘reprinted’ certificate from Siglent – will you be happy – case closed?
Not really, because after all you still hope that they did indeed calibrated your equipment and not just issued ‘blanket’ certificates for every device sold!
So – here we go again (we need to trust someone in the loop) – yet another rabbit hole – it’s never ending.
We must trust more people!
*** END RANT ***
Take care everyone
AND
Be SAFE!
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3. I hope you can see where I am going with this – the whole calibration certification process – is in essence a deep rabbit hole. Again demonstrating that the ‘paper’ whatever it’s called – in this case ‘calibration certificate’ is worthless without the trust and support of the people behind it!
Garbage ^^^ and you should/need know why.
The formal calibration process is inherently traceable completely to the international standards of all measurements. Every instrument in the chain from the calibrators that calibrate calibrators that calibrate all manner of calibration instruments can be have their accuracy aligned back to an international standard whatever one that might be.
An instrument calibrated by a traceable instrument proves an instruments accuracy meets datasheet spec.
To achieve such traceable accuracy test/measurement standards also must be met and these are also referenced on the SDS2kX Plus Cal sheet.
To make the statement that the average user can check accuracy of their instrument without also requiring the use of a calibrated instrument is also garbage as is often seen in this forum with widely varying -3dB BW points of the same instrument when tested by numerous owners.
How might we know the flatness of a signal source over the frequencies that we might use to check the -3dB point when we don't other than that instruments datasheet amplitude flatness spec when to do better requires a leveling head, itself requiring calibration.
Yes it is a rabbit hole and we must not only trust certified traceable calibration but accept it as gospel.
Some study for ya'll:
https://www.nist.gov/history (https://www.nist.gov/history)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=81471.0;attach=641930;image)
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An instrument calibrated by a traceable instrument proves an instruments accuracy meets datasheet spec.
Accepted.
Additionally, distributing calibration certificates via .PDF should be done with digital signatures by the manufacturer who did the calib.
That prevents any intermediate vendor to issue their own "certificates"...
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Further to add to this... a major reason why the calibration industry exists in the first place...
QUALITY standards. ISO being one of the biggest and if you are using any of this for manufacturing you better believe it you get that thing calibrated with in its expiry or face getting written up. That quality standard certificate further then buys a lot of customer value in that they know you produce quality products.
Would you buy your sensors for 10 dollars off the back of some truck for your critical application or pay 15 to KNOW they will work?
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Would you buy your sensors for 10 dollars off the back of some truck for your critical application or pay 15 to KNOW they will work?
Many many hobbyists seem to go for the $10. Same as many companies, cost first.
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Would you buy your sensors for 10 dollars off the back of some truck for your critical application or pay 15 to KNOW they will work?
Depends, if the system together with the sensor has to be calibrated and/or characterised anyways, than it might not make sense to go for fully qualified sensor...
But yeah, you are right most of the time it is cheapest to simply buy known good components than having to verify them all..
I, for instance, never buy any components of Ebay or Ali or something like that. Many times there is not even cheaper, and you never know what are you getting.
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What probe do you got your eye on?
Sorry I didn't see this..
I'm looking into Micsig CP2100B 2.5 MHz version.
I would like something like Tek, but new ones are too expensive, and I don't have courage to splurge 500 600-700 USD for a 30 year old used probe that won't work if it was dropped to the floor just once...
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I'm looking into Micsig CP2100B 2.5 MHz version.
Good choice.. ;D
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I don‘t understand the concerns and the arguments against the request for a proper calibration sheet.
The calibration sheet is part of the product. End. It was in my SDS2000x+ and my SDG2042.
And as I noticed in most of your boxes as well.
It proves to me that Siglent is taking care of their product quality. I appreaciate this.
If it is missing it shall be allowed to ask why.
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Of course it´s OK, nobody would deny this.
But only one page ("This thing is OK") without measured values makes at last no sense to me.
What did they measured, which are the results from, are they in the middle of the tolerance or are the values hard on it...Nothing.
Just it´s OK.
That´s only my opinion, for sure. ;)
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Martin, of course you are right.
But Siglent developes itself in the right direction. Nowadays they address perfect the market for ambitioned hobbyists
and small and medium companys.
With the exploding prices for used equipment I prefer to buy a device from them rather than to spend
the money for an overpriced 20 years old HAgilsight device in unknown condition @ Ebay.
I bought a Fluke 45 5 years ago for 80 €. Now sellers call 300€ for this 30y old device! That is crazy!
I‘m pretty sure Siglent is following all this discussions @ EEV and may be in some time we see real certificates.
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Siglent is my favorite brand for hobbyists, without any doubt.
At last as the sds2k+ comes up, which I would recommend for our departement (testfield), as it was not too "cheap" for yearly calibration cycle ( we must do that), but cheap enough to order a couple of them.
I´ll wait for the next fw updates before I starting a "charm offense" at work for it... ;)
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Of course it´s OK, nobody would deny this.
But only one page ("This thing is OK") without measured values makes at last no sense to me.
What did they measured, which are the results from, are they in the middle of the tolerance or are the values hard on it...Nothing.
Just it´s OK.
That´s only my opinion, for sure. ;)
The scope has been adjusted....presumably after some burn in post production and warming beforehand to match or better datasheet spec on all specified parameters. Factory Cal sheets are just proof of initial adjustment to meet specification.
Yes it's that simple.
When we have an English service manual for 2kX Plus there will be a section of how to verify accuracy.
This is also part of a pre recalibration process....verification of accuracy and it is a very detailed process where for example amplitude accuracy for each V/div step is specified with an acceptable range and % tolerance.....and that's just one parameter !
Verifying an instruments accuracy is a long detailed arduous process to do manually and even running Autocal, a fully automated process can take 10+ minutes with each automatic adjustment taking just fractions of a second.
Here is the service manual link for the earlier SDS2000X where the verification section starts on P22
https://siglentna.com/download/2611/
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When we have an English service manual for 2kX Plus there will be a section of how to verify accuracy.
Until that we won´t know what they´ve testing - And when we got it, we don´t know the individual measured values.
But that´s the reason why our customers won´t accept a factory calibration certificate, even when it´s brandnew.
We must always calibrate our new goods again, with a detailed protocol.
For private usage it´s OK when siglent "say" on certificate sheet it´s OK... ;)
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Siglent is my favorite brand for hobbyists, without any doubt.
At last as the sds2k+ comes up, which I would recommend for our departement (testfield), as it was not too "cheap" for yearly calibration cycle ( we must do that), but cheap enough to order a couple of them.
I´ll wait for the next fw updates before I starting a "charm offense" at work for it... ;)
We use Siglent for R&D at work now but production is all Agilent / Keysight
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I'm looking into Micsig CP2100B 2.5 MHz version.
Good choice.. ;D
+1 and they also make good diff probes, i use them as a set for power line analysis usually DP10013
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First job was very gently Dremel the edge of the 1 turn current loop to allow fitment of a Tek P6021 current probe as they have just a 3.6mm cable capacity whereas the DF2001A deskew PCB has ~4mm current loop and ~0.5mm of PCB wider again.
P6022 is smaller again, only allowing for 2.75mm cable diameter. :o
Two possibilities imho:
You cut of a little piece of the layer and solder a flexible wire over it.
Or you cut a piece out and solder a massive wire of say 2mm diameter between the edges, see below.
A third based on #2.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1025870)
Drill holes through the PCB current loop trace either side of the cut then fit and solder wire for better strain relief.
So out with the Dremel for mods:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1029638)
1mm2 insulated solid copper wire still small enough in diameter to allow the small P6022 to fit on it and the added bonus of wide enough for 2 current probes. ;D
Lost the current flow indicator on the silkscreen but tough titty, it's not like you can't flip a current probe so its rising edge matches a voltage probe.
Has it changed the waveform, probably but only slightly but of no concern IMO as the rising edge is what we need for deskew purposes.
The current probe amplitude is still sufficiently accurate for correct adjustment of the current probe's channel attenuation settings. :phew:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1029290)
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Today I must modify my fixture too (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/micsig-current-probe-cp2100b-tests-and-comparing/msg3152058/#msg3152058).... ;)
After doing this, first I test it with the FNIRSI "tablet" scope - Large loop seems to be well, but small loop....it couldn´t displaying it because of the weak voltage resolution.
Nevertheless, done it now with the siglent.
And you can clearly see the difference between large loop and small loop, concerning the risetime as we´d discussed about it.
Small loop:
[attachimg=1]
Large loop:
[attachimg=2]
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lol tau... no holds bar, pcb never saw it coming
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lol tau... no holds bar, pcb never saw it coming
:)
Actually it did, small loop was at first narrowed with the Dremel so P6021 could fit on it and that worked fine until I tried the 100 MHz P6022 that has a much smaller cable capacity of under 3mm ....then I just had to talk myself into getting all brutal and doing a proper job, once and for all !
Done now and quite happy with it. ;D
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I´ve test the clamp before, but only with sinewaves as I didn´t got anything else.
Now that you have fully tested you clamp you can move on.
...to throw it in the bin. ;)
lol i just found one of these turds in a drawer im now soldering on for shits and giggles... had it for years.. fuzz ball and drifts like a sob just like you had in your pics
a 10uF chip cap right on the output made it semi usable, still has so much drift it could take on vin diesel
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Lecroy got a fixture too:
DSC025 (http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/dcs025-datasheet.pdf)
Won´t know the price for it... ;)
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Martin,
On your deskew fixture, are the USB data lines connected to anything? I'm trying to put together my schematic, but I'm not sure if they should be connected to something or can be left floating.
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Hi Steve,
On your deskew fixture, are the USB data lines connected to anything?
No.
Meanwhile I´m also "working" on a fixture based on the siglent one, with USB and "normal" powering sockets.
And without any smd components to make the assembling easier.
You/"we" should post it in an own thread when finished.
Martin
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Martin,
On your deskew fixture, are the USB data lines connected to anything? I'm trying to put together my schematic, but I'm not sure if they should be connected to something or can be left floating.
Not when I checked.... don't have mine within arms reach ATM so it only requires the 5V from a USB source to operate.
I do like the LeCroy deskew but you need the Probus to power it. :(
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Meanwhile I´m also "working" on a fixture based on the siglent one, with USB and "normal" powering sockets.
:-//
What's more normal than USB powered ?
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When you don´t got usb power ?
It´s no hurt to implement this on the board too.
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Won´t know the price for it... ;)
Now knowing the price, appx 970€ :o
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Bullocks, smd all the way, solder paste, tweeze component, heat, done
I'd say whomever making their own should step up their game at this point in history :P
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Just got one and having spent 10mins on it, the screen viewing angles are a real kick in the balls. I have mine on a shelf so the screen begins just a bit above eye-level (eye-level is right where the channel inputs are) and everything is washed out, the grid is barely visible, and the font is hard to read.
It's very nice when looking at it straight on, or even above the screen, but below it its crap.
Real shame cause the main reason I went for it was the large screen. And the fact that the angles above the screen are very good is like salt on a wound. Couldn't it be the other way around, ye gods?
On top of that, if you have any light source behind you, the screen will reflect it back so yeah, close the curtains.
Disappointed. Will see if I can make it work or if it's going back....
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Have you tried increasing the graticule brightness? :)
JBG
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There is more than just graticule, touch display then menu and fiddle with the settings for backlight, intensity, graticule, etc till you find something you like
Although I have noticed the same thing you are talking about from when i had it on a higher shelf before I had the spot prepared at eye level for it.. it works best at eye level if you are able to do it
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Bullocks, smd all the way, solder paste, tweeze component, heat, done
I'd say whomever making their own should step up their game at this point in history :P
Agreed. SMD is much easier; even withoug solder paste. Hand soldering 1206 is very easy and faster than putting pins through a hole.
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There is more than just graticule, touch display then menu and fiddle with the settings for backlight, intensity, graticule, etc till you find something you like
Although I have noticed the same thing you are talking about from when i had it on a higher shelf before I had the spot prepared at eye level for it.. it works best at eye level if you are able to do it
Have you tried increasing the graticule brightness? :)
JBG
Yep, I tried all the settings, everything is on max. dimming them doesn't help either...
I can't lower the shelf any more unfortunately... and I would need to lower it significantly anyway, which would make for a very low shelf haha. I checked out the screen a bit more thoroughly, you need to be dead center with the center of the screen, or above it. It's really funny/sad how the viewing angles when looking from above the screen are very good actually. Below it, it's really unforgiving. My eyes, at rest, are centered exactly on the channel inputs (where the cables go). So you can imagine that I am not that much off the screen.
I can put it on the bench itself but it's kind of awkward.
I did a very short test of some waveforms, they seemed ok.I'll do some more tests tomorrow. It's the font and grid and graticules (especially the horizontal ones, don't remember what you call those) that fade away. The text looks weird, kinda like dithered?
It's a shame because the screen is really nice when you are centered on it. Crisp and bright.
And it does really benefit from a dark room.
Really weird, I have seen plenty of TFT screens on rack equipment and they are not that demanding with the viewing angles. :-//
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Yeah i was a bit surprised that it didnt show up better from below.. all screens are different.. just whatever the picked has a terrible angle for that position
I keep mine eye level mainly because i want to reach over with my arm and touch it, not up or down
It's about 8" above my desk / bench.. i also dont really like it sitting directly on bench... takes up a ton of space that could be used for dut space
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When we must put our scopes above on the desk, we bend them a little to reduce the angle.
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Yeah i was a bit surprised that it didnt show up better from below.. all screens are different.. just whatever the picked has a terrible angle for that position
I keep mine eye level mainly because i want to reach over with my arm and touch it, not up or down
It's about 8" above my desk / bench.. i also dont really like it sitting directly on bench... takes up a ton of space that could be used for dut space
yeah at 8in you really shouldn't have any issues. but that's a really low shelf man, you don't find it limiting?
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When we must put our scopes above on the desk, we bend them a little to reduce the angle.
how? the raisers are under the front feet, which increases the angles. It would need raisers at the back. I actually though of putting a piece of wood something on the back feet to angle it down, but it felt a bit ridiculous and with my luck it would tip over and fall down at some point. :scared:
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yeah at 8in you really shouldn't have any issues. but that's a really low shelf man, you don't find it limiting?
Not at all
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-new-bench-dmm-sdm3055/?action=dlattach;attach=995014;image)
I also recently picked up one of these and is now under the dut
https://www.quadhands.com/collections/all/products/quadhands-jumbo-workbench-helping-hands-third-arm-soldering-work-station-extra-large-heavy-no-tip-base-plate-6-flexible-magnetic-arms-with-precision-360-degree-alligator-clip-made-in-usa (https://www.quadhands.com/collections/all/products/quadhands-jumbo-workbench-helping-hands-third-arm-soldering-work-station-extra-large-heavy-no-tip-base-plate-6-flexible-magnetic-arms-with-precision-360-degree-alligator-clip-made-in-usa)
Which pairs nicely with
https://sensepeek.com/ (https://sensepeek.com/)
I have 16 digital IO ones and 4 scope probes from them, works out fantastic on this jumbo 11x17in near 1/4" steel plate
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how?
We got several scopes, those who got the raisers at the back so no problem, those who don´t.
In this cases we use a simple made bracket to fix the scope. (Groundplate, Bracket partly with rubber mounted on the groundplate inbetween the scope, now you can raise the groundplate to an angle which fits.)
Or, when it´s on our newer "Workstations":
There is a moveable "table" which we could raise to an angle we desired - But this will fit only with our older scopes, because of their weight.
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yeah at 8in you really shouldn't have any issues. but that's a really low shelf man, you don't find it limiting?
Not at all
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-new-bench-dmm-sdm3055/?action=dlattach;attach=995014;image)
I also recently picked up one of these and is now under the dut
https://www.quadhands.com/collections/all/products/quadhands-jumbo-workbench-helping-hands-third-arm-soldering-work-station-extra-large-heavy-no-tip-base-plate-6-flexible-magnetic-arms-with-precision-360-degree-alligator-clip-made-in-usa (https://www.quadhands.com/collections/all/products/quadhands-jumbo-workbench-helping-hands-third-arm-soldering-work-station-extra-large-heavy-no-tip-base-plate-6-flexible-magnetic-arms-with-precision-360-degree-alligator-clip-made-in-usa)
Which pairs nicely with
https://sensepeek.com/ (https://sensepeek.com/)
I have 16 digital IO ones and 4 scope probes from them, works out fantastic on this jumbo 11x17in near 1/4" steel plate
Oh I see, you have a mini shelf right there, that's cool. My setup is very similar to yours (well it's kind of identical), just without the mini shelf. I have parts drawers on my bench so I'd have to move stuff around if I'd do something like that.
I like the opsec on the dut :D
I was actually gonna get the sensepeek set with the baseplate and probes but reconsidered as I already spent way too much money. Next time. I'm sure its fantastic.
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how?
We got several scopes, those who got the raisers at the back so no problem, those who don´t.
In this cases we use a simple made bracket to fix the scope. (Groundplate, Bracket partly with rubber mounted on the groundplate inbetween the scope, now you can raise the groundplate to an angle which fits.)
Or, when it´s on our newer "Workstations":
There is a moveable "table" which we could raise to an angle we desired - But this will fit only with our older scopes, because of their weight.
hmm, I'm not sure I get how the groundplate and bracket works in your first paragraph. Do you mean you have something like a lip in front for the scope so when you tilt it forward it holds it? Because when I tried tilting it forward the off-axis center of gravity was quite close to pulling the scope down on its face and off the shelf. I mean it won't fall by itself but if I'm back there messing with cables or other TE close to it, a stray elbow or something would send it crashing down.
A picture or drawing would be lovely if you have the time at some point :)
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Oh I see, you have a mini shelf right there, that's cool. My setup is very similar to yours (well it's kind of identical), just without the mini shelf. I have parts drawers on my bench so I'd have to move stuff around if I'd do something like that.
I like the opsec on the dut :D
I was actually gonna get the sensepeek set with the baseplate and probes but reconsidered as I already spent way too much money. Next time. I'm sure its fantastic.
Here is an updated pic, the small shelf is 12" deep and my desk area is 22" deep so it works out pretty well
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Finally, the siglent deskew fixture schematic is finished - All unknown capacitor values added ( got it today on work and soldered them out for measure).
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A picture or drawing would be lovely if you have the time at some point :)
Here a simple draw:
[attachimg=1]
The scope is fixed through the bracket, you can raise the groundplate until it fits to your need and then fix it in this position ( how is up to you).
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Worst case attach a decent kensington lock as a fail safe.
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Oh I see, you have a mini shelf right there, that's cool. My setup is very similar to yours (well it's kind of identical), just without the mini shelf. I have parts drawers on my bench so I'd have to move stuff around if I'd do something like that.
I like the opsec on the dut :D
I was actually gonna get the sensepeek set with the baseplate and probes but reconsidered as I already spent way too much money. Next time. I'm sure its fantastic.
Here is an updated pic, the small shelf is 12" deep and my desk area is 22" deep so it works out pretty well
yeah looks pretty comfortable. did you put it just for the siglent or you had it there anyway?
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A picture or drawing would be lovely if you have the time at some point :)
Here a simple draw:
(Attachment Link)
The scope is fixed through the bracket, you can raise the groundplate until it fits to your need and then fix it in this position ( how is up to you).
thank you, that's very kind you took the time to do this!
are those brackets custom made? I have made something similar at home before but without a metal bending machine the results were hilarious. It still worked but it looked like a car run over it.
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Worst case attach a decent kensington lock as a fail safe.
that'll work, good idea
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are those brackets custom made?
Sure...Take a bar of aluminium, say 3mm thick and 30mm wide, then bend it, using a vise.
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Worst case attach a decent kensington lock as a fail safe.
that'll work, good idea
Yes but a K lock is below halfway up the rear of these DSO's.
I'd prefer some restraint around the carry handle at the top which I think you will find will also be much easier to access when you need to take the scope off the shelf.
A bracket like this bent up in a vise would be easy:
I.....................T.........T
DSO
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are those brackets custom made?
Sure...Take a bar of aluminium, say 3mm thick and 30mm wide, then bend it, using a vise.
yep that's what I did but it was 5mm thick of some kind of galvanised steel alloy and I had no metal vise, just a woodwoorking clamp to hold it. I bent it by hand, felt like superman. :-DD
Left a mark on my palm for a couple of days. It worked so I am not complaining
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FFT 2 tone signal tests:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/two-tone-test-with-scope-and-sa/msg3166104/#msg3166104 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/two-tone-test-with-scope-and-sa/msg3166104/#msg3166104)
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Yes but a K lock is below halfway up the rear of these DSO's.
Why not a hook on the handlebar bolted to the upper shelf? Seems cleaner.
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yeah looks pretty comfortable. did you put it just for the siglent or you had it there anyway?
The shelves were around their current positions, i shifted the wall brackets a tad up and down mainly to fit the SSA and then for the upper shelf to stack 3 siglent units
My former 1104 was sitting there in its place before
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Today I wanted to test the waveform updaterate, using this cute toy: (Picture got lost....wtf)
It performed well, but in sequence mode, you will have set the trigger to normal - And in normal triger mode, the toy couldn´t measure..... :P
So sequence mode measure will follow when I get an alternative to the toy.
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I've posted my custom deskew fixture here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/scope-probe-deskew-fixture-pcb-project/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/scope-probe-deskew-fixture-pcb-project/)
If anyone wants to take a look, please let me know what you think or if you see any issues with it. I decided on adjustable frequency and rise time to account for having a terminal block for custom current loop turns.
:)
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Excellent, was on my way to start a new thread because what we´ve discussed here would be "lost" against the topic.
Now you was first to start, really good. :)
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Here is the "instruction" for measuring the max. waveform update rate from siglent...
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Today I wanted to test the waveform updaterate, using this cute toy: (Picture got lost....wtf)
It performed well, but in sequence mode, you will have set the trigger to normal - And in normal triger mode, the toy couldn´t measure..... :P
So sequence mode measure will follow when I get an alternative to the toy.
For fast sequence mode it can of course measure like also Siglent simple method advice but if need or want do more perfect there need find perfect limit to real trusted max speed.
Possible and simple way to measure it is Single shot sequence and using enough perfectly known burst signal.
Way I have made other some other models measuremets was this (simplified) and this can do for all time scales not only for 50ns/div what give only UP TO value for sales persons and advertisements. it can do also for all channel combinations and memory limit combinations.
What ever is wanted channe(s) timescale and memory you want test.
Next step is set amount of segmments. Better is max with used settings.
Then next step is set signal generator for generate Exactly! this amount of pulses or sinewave etc cycles.
Then select pulse frequency inside this burst. Do not start. Of course mode need also be Single shot burst, not repeating.
Set scope for Single sequence mode and start it for waiting trig's.
Then start this signal generator Single burst. If sequence come ready (amount of segments trig'd and captured) it have passed test with this speed what is burst frequency. If there is missing pulses scope stay waiting more until amount of defined count of segments captured. In this case test is failed with this pulse freq.
If not get all, then set more low freq and try again. If pass then try higher freq. Until you find limit. Take small safety margin down and that is it. This is quaranteed max sequence trig speed. Yes it need work and time.
Also
If you select continuous repetitive sequence mode and not watch if every single pulse is captured you get too optimistic UP TO value. In some models difference is more and some other models difference is not so high. Example older SDS2000 have not big difference but SDS1000X-E may have more differnce between these two test methods, because they measure different thing.
Only true important thing is speed where it do not drop out ANY single pulse.
If we go to more deep inside trigger speed we may find some interesting advantages least on some other models. I do not know SDS2000XPlus.
Here just for example some old results from other models what give some imagine what I mean.
(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X/a1-wfm-table-new.png)
Older SDS1000X
(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E/SDS1202X-E-wfms-segms-speed-FW51313.png)
and SDS1202X-E
These are guaranteed max speed measured with principle as previously told where is important to not not any dropped out pulses.
But yes these tests takes some time... and cross check and cross check for avoid false claims.
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Hi guys,
At this time i don't need high R&D capabilities of my Lecroy wavepro oscilloscopes, and i am looking for some smaller oscilloscope.
I have some questions:
1. How good this siglent are in terms of DC offset and saturation? In Lecroy scopes you can offset you signal and "zoom in" up to several times needed piece of you signal without distortion. I mean this https://youtu.be/n_dXvpEV18g?t=155
2. Can someone provide screenshots of sin 200Mhz and 400Mhz with linear interpolation (without sinx/x interpolation) with 2Gs/s and 1Gs/s SR?
3. Can someone provide screenshots of fast rise meander with linear interpolation (without sinx/x interpolation) with 2Gs/s and 1Gs/s SR?
Thanks!
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Got the SDS2104X Plus today 8)
Here are some quick first impressions:
Positive impressions:
- The scope feels solid and the shell is made from thick plastic. The handle is molded with a soft rubber grip.
- The screen is big, nice and relatively bright and clear. Not iPad clear, but quite OK. The viewing angles are good, except from below. Not an issue for me. Trace drawing is nice and clear.
- The form factor is perfect. I will trade individual vertical knobs for a big screen any day. Maybe in a future model the screen could even be a little bit bigger in the same form factor, if ditching the black bezel.
- The buttons are nice, relatively firm and with a good tactile feedback. Not the mushy kind, where the whole keyboard moves when pressing one button. In my opinion the button LEDs are nice and bright on 50% brightness. The layout is OK and grouped as you would expect. All scopes are different and an experienced scope user will have no trouble finding their way around this one. A couple of buttons could have been saved and put into the menus (See below).
- The encoder knobs are with soft touch and with a good detents on the horizontal/verticals. The least impressive parts are the four detent-less narrow encoder knobs, which are not completely straight and wobbles slightly when turned. They mar the quality feel a bit. Time will tell whether they will last.
- The scope feels pretty responsive. There is immediate audiovisual feedback from touch, so even though the scope may take a little longer to draw menus and make settings effective it does not feel especially laggy to operate. Maybe at some settings and with all 4 channels enabled it sometimes becomes a bit slow - but not unbearably so.
- User interface is nice, discrete and unobtrusive. Small, but easily readable fonts. Looks professional and modern. (Not gaudy and cartoony like some other scopes...). Maybe the top bar could have been slightly slimmer to provide more trace space and the icons left out to reduce the clutter.
- 10 bit mode is pretty good. I will likely run the scope in 10 bit dot mode most of the time - especially since it is limited to 100MHz anyway... (Vector interpolation really shouldn't be the default setting, as it will often fool users to use a scope beyond its true capacity.)
- Noise level is good!
- FFT also seems usable for a scope.
Potential for improvement:
- The probes accompanying the Oscilloscope are 200MHz PP215 1x/10x probes. However the probes have no detection pin, so even though the scope has a "10x probe detection ring", it does not work with the probes... :palm:
- Power button is a soft button and the scope uses almost 4W when turned "off"! Though, there is no apparent benefit (e.g. faster boot) from this substantial idle power use. For comparison EU regulations require consumer equipment to use less than 0.5W in off mode, so I guess oscilloscopes are exempted from this... A hardware button on the back would also have helped instead of having to pull the plug.
- Boot time of 45 seconds is just acceptable.
- The fan in the scope is not exactly silent. Although the scope has do dissipate ~55W, the airflow does not feel to be in proportion with the sound level from the fan. Also has a bit of "cricket" sound beyond the "whoosh"
- I would much prefer to have a "Force trig" button instead of the useless "Touch", "Default" or "Auto setup" buttons. The scope is pretty useless without touch and the other two could easily have been buried in the utility menu - especially since you have to confirm them by touch anyway... (Edit: actually they are already present in the Acquire menu)
- Bug: If touch is disabled (Press the "touch" button) and either "Auto setup" or "Default" is pressed, the scope locks up... (Software 1.3.5R5)
- Memory depth: At 10ms/div you get both maximum sample rate 2Gs/s (1 channel) and maximum memory depth 200Mpts. Above 10ms/div the sample rate is lowered because of the maximum memory depth. Below 10ms/div the memory depth is lowered. Ideally the user could choose between using full memory depth (enabling "zoom out" functionality) or the current "automatic" mode resulting in a higher waveform capture rate. Yes, you can get almost the same functionality by never going below 10ms/div and using the "zoom in" functionality, but that is a bit of a work-around and clutters the screen.
- The AWG seems to be pretty good hardware wise, however, the software implementation is just a bit too rudimentary. I miss functionality like: modulation, double pulses and manually trigged pulses. I am not convinced it is worth the €200+ price. It should be easy to add in a firmware update, though.
I have not really used the scope yet, but all in all, it seems like a very nice scope, which is comparable to the regular "A-brands" but at a great price/performance ratio. :-+
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Potential for improvement:
Hehe...
The probes
Well...No comment. ;)
Power button is a soft button and the scope uses almost 4W when turned "off"! Though, there is no apparent benefit (e.g. faster boot) from this substantial idle power use. For comparison EU regulations require consumer equipment to use less than 0.5W in off mode, so I guess oscilloscopes are exempted from this... A hardware button on the back would also have helped instead of having to pull the plug.
For me there are only two states: Scope is plugged in and running or off and plugged off, so I don´t worry a thing about it.
Boot time of 45 seconds is just acceptable.
The more features a scope got, the longer it will boot - 45 seconds is in nower days a good value.
Memory depth:
Also a thing discussed a hundred times - They will work on it, but today I understand their way to do it so far, so let´s hope they won´t make it worser when allowing the full memdepth at every time.
The AWG seems to be pretty good hardware wise, however, the software implementation is just a bit too rudimentary.
Agree to this.
I have not really used the scope yet, but all in all, it seems like a very nice scope, which is comparable to the regular "A-brands" but at a great price/performance ratio.
This scope is a killer for it´s price, even when the entry model would cost 2000 bucks.
Although the siglent sales mangement confirms, that the rigol 5000 is a serious opponent to it, but I couldn´t agree to this, because I got a rigol5000 before.
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Mine has been on 24/7 since i got it... still ticking
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The more features a scope got, the longer it will boot - 45 seconds is in nower days a good value.
Yeah, somehow we will accept that a €100000 scope will take 4 minutes to boot and sound like a jet engine ::) However a daily driver should just be fast and quiet. The Siglent is OK, but could have been slightly better.
This scope is a killer for it´s price, even when the entry model would cost 2000 bucks.
Although the siglent sales mangement confirms, that the rigol 5000 is a serious opponent to it, but I couldn´t agree to this, because I got a rigol5000 before.
I agree the scope is very good value compared to the low end models from Tek/KS etc. Obviously they are hesitant to put too many features into their low-end scopes and Siglent can easily compete with them by listening to the users and providing lots of features with a low-mid range front end.
IMHO the Rigol 5000 looks like one rung down the ladder and not really something I would consider - especially if the firmware updates are a bit "hit and run".
Personally, I am a very satisfied customer with the SDS2104X+ and consider my list of oddities to be minor. My main gripe is probably the simplistic AWG. However, if Siglent continues to provide improvements with firmware updates, they will do something the big brands don't and we will really have a winner :box: :-+
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The MSO5000 series puts some serious punch in hardware department. 8 GSa/s, holy ...!
Just, from what I read the MSO frontend is a bit noisy and the firmware looks a bit cobbled together - this will be Siglents path to compete, but they need to get their stuff together. The MSO5000 has a _ton_ of triggers, this is where I feel Siglent is lacking. More triggers, more analysis functions to make the scope more than a mere waveform display and a serious test instrument.
The AWG I don't mind, I just wish it had shorter rise times for pulse and rectangle functions. I have an external AWG anyway which I prefer.
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Just, from what I read the MSO frontend is a bit noisy
It is and as they told me, the frontend of the 7000 aren´t that much better, I´ve turned back to siglent.
Now I got "only" 2GSa/s, but could live with it... ;)
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Hi Guys,
I've juste bought this model Siglent SDS2104X Plus 4Ch 100MHz. Is it upgraded to more bandwidth? if yes can any one help me to do it.
Thanks,
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Hi,
Just click my signature... ;)
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Where can I find the details on the noise levels for Siglent SDS2000X versus Rigol MSO5000?
I guess 500 microVolt vertical division is only available to users of the venerable Tektronix 2225.
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Where can I find the details on the noise levels for Siglent SDS2000X versus Rigol MSO5000?
I guess 500 microVolt vertical division is only available to users of the venerable Tektronix 2225.
Old model, this thread is about SDS2000X Plus !
Anyways, SDS2000X Plus noise measurements are on P3 of this thread in the thumbnails of this post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2840268/#msg2840268 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2840268/#msg2840268)
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I meant the Siglent SDS2000X Plus. Sorry for the mistake.
Is the Rigol much noisier?
How do their vertical sensitivity compare?
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Just received the Siglent SDS2102X Plus from Saelig thanks to Rob at Tautech and Amanda at Saelig :clap:
First impression is "Wow" :-+
This is really a nice instrument, the larger touch screen is excellent. UI is nice and I've been able to navigate without using the manual, things are intuitive for the most part so far.
Need much more testing and evaluation, but first impression is very good :)
Best,
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Where can I find the details on the noise levels for Siglent SDS2000X versus Rigol MSO5000?
I guess 500 microVolt vertical division is only available to users of the venerable Tektronix 2225.
Or you can go with the even more venerable Tek 7A22 in a 7000 series mainframe and get down to 10 μV/Div. Just one of the reasons I have a Tek 7904 on my bench along side my SDS2204X Plus.
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Where can I find the details on the noise levels for Siglent SDS2000X versus Rigol MSO5000?
I guess 500 microVolt vertical division is only available to users of the venerable Tektronix 2225.
You can find the details about Siglent here: https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/SDS2000X-Plus_Datasheet_DS0102XP_E01A.pdf (https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/SDS2000X-Plus_Datasheet_DS0102XP_E01A.pdf)
Noise is specified as <80 uV RMS @ 500MHz BW and you can get down to 500 uV/div when running with X1 probe or direct connection. I find it to be quite OK.
You have to google the Rigol yourself ;)
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Can you refer to the source where you read about the Rigol MSO front-end being noisy?
The MSO5000 series puts some serious punch in hardware department. 8 GSa/s, holy ...!
Just, from what I read the MSO frontend is a bit noisy and the firmware looks a bit cobbled together - this will be Siglents path to compete, but they need to get their stuff together. The MSO5000 has a _ton_ of triggers, this is where I feel Siglent is lacking. More triggers, more analysis functions to make the scope more than a mere waveform display and a serious test instrument.
The AWG I don't mind, I just wish it had shorter rise times for pulse and rectangle functions. I have an external AWG anyway which I prefer.
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Where can I find the details on the noise levels for Siglent SDS2000X versus Rigol MSO5000?
I guess 500 microVolt vertical division is only available to users of the venerable Tektronix 2225.
I have this little spreadsheet I just made up this afternoon. The MSO5000 isn't great when you look at the Vrms.
I picked the common lowest and highest channel attenuator ranges of all the scopes I tested (2mV/div and 5V/div), as well as the most common attenuator settings I use with a 10x probe (in 1x terms, 100, 200 & 500mV/div).
At the 500uV setting I'm looking at now (not in the spreadsheet) I get
MSO5000 Vpp: 1.19mV
SDS2000X+ Vpp: 0.158mV
MSO5000 Vrms: 0.485mV
SDS2000X+ Vrms: 0.255mV
[attachimg=1]
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Can you refer to the source where you read about the Rigol MSO front-end being noisy?
I don't know the spec or have the scope, but in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5faiEUXbGg&t=1610s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5faiEUXbGg&t=1610s) around the 27:00 you can see some low level performance.
To quote Dave: "You don't want to get this scope for any low level measurement"...
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Can you refer to the source where you read about the Rigol MSO front-end being noisy?
The MSO5000 series puts some serious punch in hardware department. 8 GSa/s, holy ...!
Just, from what I read the MSO frontend is a bit noisy and the firmware looks a bit cobbled together - this will be Siglents path to compete, but they need to get their stuff together. The MSO5000 has a _ton_ of triggers, this is where I feel Siglent is lacking. More triggers, more analysis functions to make the scope more than a mere waveform display and a serious test instrument.
The AWG I don't mind, I just wish it had shorter rise times for pulse and rectangle functions. I have an external AWG anyway which I prefer.
I received an MSO5000 this week, the first thing that jumped out at me was the noisy front end. Subsequent measurements have shown that to be the case, with not even 5 bits of effective resolution.
Edit: effective resolution in bits below
[attachimg=1]
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From Daves video it looks like the MSO5000 has a resolution of about 150uV/bit.
I just tested my SDS2104X+ and found it to have a resolution of about 33uV/bit (8 bit mode). Strangely it seems we get 8 levels more by going to 10 bit mode so that is ~4uV/bit. Is 10 bit mode really 11 bit mode??
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From Daves video it looks like the MSO5000 has a resolution of about 150uV/bit.
I just tested my SDS2104X+ and found it to have a resolution of about 33uV/bit (8 bit mode). Strangely it seems we get 8 levels more by going to 10 bit mode so that is ~4uV/bit. Is 10 bit mode really 11 bit mode??
We'd need to know quite a bit more. What attenuator setting, what bandwidth setting, how is the channel terminated, etc etc.
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I just tested my SDS2104X+ and found it to have a resolution of about 33uV/bit (8 bit mode).
How do you test it ?
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I just tested my SDS2104X+ and found it to have a resolution of about 33uV/bit (8 bit mode).
How do you test it ?
I prefer dot-mode... exactly to know when I am measuring at the limits of my scope ;D (been fooled more than once by vector mode)
Edit: Apparently it is only at 500uV/div we get 8 extra levels in 10 bit mode. At 1mV/div the resolution is still 33uV/bit in 8 bit mode but we only get 4 extra levels in 10 bit mode. Funny...
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
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So it´s a channel with no input signal ?
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Maybe it is a bit unclear what I did. The trick is to run in dot-mode and zoom in vertically to show the discrete bit levels. In the top screen-dump the cursors are placed directly at two bit levels somewhat hiding the signal, which is also yellow... In the second screen-dump the 8 extra levels in '10 bit' mode can clearly be seen.
Yes, I run with the channel grounded (GND coupling), but that was just to measure the noise level, which BTW was about ~65uV std deviation (in 8 bit mode), slightly better than the specified 80uV (@500MHz BW). But mine being BW limited to 100MHz probably also helps a bit.
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So it´s a channel with no input signal ?
Vestom shows the channel coupled to GND where Performa01 back on P3 in the following post uses AC coupling and BW limited 50 Ohm.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2840268/#msg2840268 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2840268/#msg2840268)
Who's right IDK but AC coupled to remove any offset and 50 Ohm with BW limiting seems more like a real world measurement. :popcorn:
Oh and BTW, Performa01 has a preference for Dot mode also.
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So it´s a channel with no input signal ?
Vestom shows the channel coupled to GND where Performa01 back on P3 in the following post uses AC coupling and BW limited 50 Ohm.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2840268/#msg2840268 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2840268/#msg2840268)
Who's right IDK but AC coupled to remove any offset and 50 Ohm with BW limiting seems more like a real world measurement. :popcorn:
Possibly, if that's how you usually run your scope.
I'm not sure what the value is in practical terms in identifying the discrete levels, other than for academic purposes? If it's preceded by a noisy front end, all bets are off. I managed only about a 4dB improvement (not even one bit) in resolution by switching to 10 bit on the Siglent under the same criteria I used documented above in the screen shot.
What I'm convinced of is that the Rigol MSO5000's front end is quite a disappointment, and then some.
I've had three days on the Rigol and one on the Siglent now. While I've traditionally been a bit of a Rigol fanboy, accepting the limitations and features as a penalty for saving money, I've found that the MSO5000 is still too unfinished despite its 20 months or so on the market, whereas the Siglent SDS2000x+ has so far largely surpassed my expectations only being out a couple of months. Until now did have more negative feelings about Siglent compared to Rigol from my experience with one of their AWGs. The SDS2000X+ is surprisingly well polished considering my prejudices.
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I'm not sure what the value is in practical terms in identifying the discrete levels, other than for academic purposes? If it's preceded by a noisy front end, all bets are off.
Sure Howard however if you consider one of the features of these is 500uV/div max sensitivity it's best that's backed up with a low noise front end.
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Vestom shows the channel coupled to GND where Performa01 back on P3 in the following post uses AC coupling and BW limited 50 Ohm.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2840268/#msg2840268 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2840268/#msg2840268)
Who's right IDK but AC coupled to remove any offset and 50 Ohm with BW limiting seems more like a real world measurement. :popcorn:
Oh and BTW, Performa01 has a preference for Dot mode also.
It doesn't really make a difference. I measure the same with AC coupling and 50 Ohms termination internally and externally. Heck, even with open connector and 1M resistance it is almost the same. BW limiting will of course reduce the noise. However, in all modes I have a -150uV offset. Outrageous! But it is also unusual warm weather right now... ;D
I'm not sure what the value is in practical terms in identifying the discrete levels, other than for academic purposes? If it's preceded by a noisy front end, all bets are off. I managed only about a 4dB improvement (not even one bit) in resolution by switching to 10 bit on the Siglent under the same criteria I used documented above in the screen shot.
What I'm convinced of is that the Rigol MSO5000's front end is quite a disappointment, and then some.
Not much. Just interesting, that the Rigols resolution is apparently ~5 times coarser than the Siglent and ~2 times coarser than the Siglent noise level. Also that we apparently have a '11-bit mode' in 500uV/div. I get about half the noise level (~6dB) when running in 10-bit mode. I think the Siglent frontend is quite respectable - especially for a scope in this class. :popcorn:
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However, in all modes I have a -150uV offset. Outrageous! But it is also unusual warm weather right now... ;D
Have you run the Self Cal ?
Engage it and go put the kettle ON and by the time you come back with a cuppa it should be about finished. :popcorn:
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What I'm convinced of is that the Rigol MSO5000's front end is quite a disappointment
That was the main reason why I´ve changed to siglent.
Did a ripple measure with the 5000 and it was terrible, after this my decision was clear to give the new siglent a chance.
And it didn´t disappoint me so far.
Plus the bigger and better screen, plus 50 ohm inputs.
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What I'm convinced of is that the Rigol MSO5000's front end is quite a disappointment
That was the main reason why I´ve changed to siglent.
Did a ripple measure with the 5000 and it was terrible, after this my decision was clear to give the new siglent a chance.
And it didn´t disappoint me so far.
Plus the bigger and better screen, plus 50 ohm inputs.
And the really nice and stable timebase. I did some phase measurements between a GPSDO and a LPRO-101 and I could clearly see the GPSDO drift. The short term stability of the internal timebase is really quite good.
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Yeah, the one ppm and 3.5 ppm aging in 10yrs, this you won´t find in any other scope in it´s priceclass.
And beyond.
Seems they really did a good job and the 8GSa/s of my former rigol I don´t miss it in practice.
Edit:
Before I´ve changed to siglent, I gave rigol a try and asked them about the frontend noiselevel from the 7000 series.
As they answered back, it should be the same, that was it for me.
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If I had my time back, I could have saved a bit longer and got 1 of these instead of the sds1104, but at least i hacked it.
Well thats alright tho, I can afford the SDS2000 plus series new, and it would just take too long to ever save up for a $5k scope like the MSO5000 series. So I'd say I'll be getting 1 of these next year.
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So you basically say that the Rigol Phoenix chipset is a big failure?
https://www.eenewsembedded.com/news/novel-chipset-and-architecture-portable-oscilloscopes-0 (https://www.eenewsembedded.com/news/novel-chipset-and-architecture-portable-oscilloscopes-0)
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and it would just take too long to ever save up for a $5k scope like the MSO5000 series.
Hm ?
Starting prices are under 1000USD...
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So you basically say that the Rigol Phoenix chipset is a big failure?
https://www.eenewsembedded.com/news/novel-chipset-and-architecture-portable-oscilloscopes-0 (https://www.eenewsembedded.com/news/novel-chipset-and-architecture-portable-oscilloscopes-0)
I only have experience of the MSO5000 with this chipset, so my evidence is very anecdotal.
I have quite a long list of pros and cons for both scopes, but thus far the MSO5000 has many more cons than the SDS2000X Plus.
There are some weird surprises for both. For example, you can’t do a serial bus search on the Siglent at all, but you can search for analogue things like edges and runt pulses, so you need to rely on your trigger. On the Rigol, you can do serial bus searches, but those searches are only accepted on analogue channels, not LA channels.
I’m tempted to do a full comparison, these are essentially direct competitors to my mind.
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I meant the 1GHz Siglent scopes. I'll have more work in the next few years, so a $5K scope would be possible too.
In the next few years there should be more lower price competition too I hope, and all these newer DSO's will be ending up sold on ebay, so it's still possible I could get a modern, bigbrand DSO w/ 1GHz BW
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I have quite a long list of pros and cons for both scopes, but thus far the MSO5000 has many more cons than the SDS2000X Plus.
List them here...
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I have quite a long list of pros and cons for both scopes, but thus far the MSO5000 has many more cons than the SDS2000X Plus.
List them here...
One vs the other needs be in its own thread.
However a list like Vestom (IIRC) did of pros/cons is appropriate for this thread along with SDS2kX Plus feature requests.
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One vs the other needs be in its own thread.
Comparing the benefits/missing things of the sds2K+ in the sdk2k+ thread....Why needing a new thread for it ?
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One vs the other needs be in its own thread.
Comparing the benefits/missing things of the sds2K+ in the sdk2k+ thread....Why needing a new thread for it ?
Coming from a siglent dealer, it is obvious why
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Naahh, i don´t think that this was his intention - Pros/Cons were already done here, for example by me. ;)
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Yes, I run with the channel grounded (GND coupling), but that was just to measure the noise level, which BTW was about ~65uV std deviation (in 8 bit mode), slightly better than the specified 80uV (@500MHz BW). But mine being BW limited to 100MHz probably also helps a bit.
Imho, this is not right for measure base noise level including whole pathway from input terminal until you know exactly how this couplin is done in circuit. In some scopes it may be even so that it only close ADC output or ADC input coupled to GND or what ever kind of fake "GND coupling".
It is partially right if GND coupling is first thing just after input BNC but my guess with some experience is that it is not. And even then it do not remove all possible DC bias and due to this RMS value do not tell just noise level.
But we are interested about whole front end noise starting from BNC and ending to ADC binary output..
Imho, best way is measure noise level is: After well done selfcal.
Lowest true full resolution V/div.
Input coupling DC (or AC but still need care possible small internal dc offset before ADC and in ADC)
Maximum samplerate, maximum memory (maximum true measurement data and here need remember some scopes may use very small intermediate buffer and because noise is random it of course may affect result so that apples apples compare is difficult)
Bandwidth used for measurement is important specially if compare others. All know noise and BW relation.
For measurement avoid RMS measurement if possible. If can not use better then need take manually care about possible DC bias correction calculation.
Example with 500uV/div this DC bias may give lot of error. Instead of RMS use Stdev what leave DC out aka "RMS without DC".
(All scopes do not use all samples for measurements so if this is case it need note.)
It is also good to compare noise measurement using open input (and if need, use just BNC Open cap (not short!) for block external noise.) There must not be big difference. If there is big difference, hidden reason behind it need find.
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So you basically say that the Rigol Phoenix chipset is a big failure?
https://www.eenewsembedded.com/news/novel-chipset-and-architecture-portable-oscilloscopes-0 (https://www.eenewsembedded.com/news/novel-chipset-and-architecture-portable-oscilloscopes-0)
I only have experience of the MSO5000 with this chipset, so my evidence is very anecdotal.
I have quite a long list of pros and cons for both scopes, but thus far the MSO5000 has many more cons than the SDS2000X Plus.
There are some weird surprises for both. For example, you can’t do a serial bus search on the Siglent at all, but you can search for analogue things like edges and runt pulses, so you need to rely on your trigger. On the Rigol, you can do serial bus searches, but those searches are only accepted on analogue channels, not LA channels.
I’m tempted to do a full comparison, these are essentially direct competitors to my mind.
Nezbrun ?
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So you basically say that the Rigol Phoenix chipset is a big failure?
https://www.eenewsembedded.com/news/novel-chipset-and-architecture-portable-oscilloscopes-0 (https://www.eenewsembedded.com/news/novel-chipset-and-architecture-portable-oscilloscopes-0)
I only have experience of the MSO5000 with this chipset, so my evidence is very anecdotal.
I have quite a long list of pros and cons for both scopes, but thus far the MSO5000 has many more cons than the SDS2000X Plus.
There are some weird surprises for both. For example, you can’t do a serial bus search on the Siglent at all, but you can search for analogue things like edges and runt pulses, so you need to rely on your trigger. On the Rigol, you can do serial bus searches, but those searches are only accepted on analogue channels, not LA channels.
I’m tempted to do a full comparison, these are essentially direct competitors to my mind.
Nezbrun ?
Maybe, I was waiting for the 4k render to complete, Youtube's taking a looong time to transcode for some reason.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93QUNt1z6Gw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93QUNt1z6Gw)
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Thanks for a short head to head Howard. :clap:
SDS2kX Plus probe attenuation settings can be set to a User Default.
The Default Key setting menu is in the Save/Recall menu.
Best to do a factory Default first and a Secure Erase before setting a User Default.
Expansion/Trigger point can be fixed from within the Utilities menu.
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SDS2kX Plus probe attenuation settings can be set to a User Default.
The Default Key setting menu is in the Save/Recall menu.
Best to do a factory Default first and a Secure Erase before setting a User Default.
Expansion/Trigger point can be fixed from within the Utilities menu.
Perfect, thank you, I've made comments in the video description. Very useful.
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That is nice, honest short comparison of some features, form someone who has both scopes and actually knows how to use them ^-^.
Nice work Howard, thanks!
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Thank You Howard ! :D
I made up my mind and will open a new thread where the features between both scopes are listed, like math functions, trigger, etc..
Siglent support itself claimed the mso5000 as the "true" opponent to the sds2k and I want them to fill up their features they don´t got, but the rigol does...
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Thank You Howard ! :D
I made up my mind and will open a new thread where the features between both scopes are listed, like math functions, trigger, etc..
Siglent support itself claimed the mso5000 as the "true" opponent to the sds2k and I want them to fill up their features they don´t got, but the rigol does...
Some of the nuances are quite key, things you'd not glean when you read the brochures or datasheets. Now they might be in the user manual, but it's knowing the right question to ask. I thought things like Siglent not supplying probes with readout on the 100 & 200MHz units was a bit weird, or indeed the serial bus limitations on the search function.
The serial bus search function thing for me isn't much of a problem, I've trained myself over the years to use triggering techniques instead in my workflow, back to the days when deep memory was limited, and decodes were done in our head, i.e., a CRO!
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I thought things like Siglent not supplying probes with readout on the 100 & 200MHz units was a bit weird
The probe thing we got several times here - Even on the lowest rigol 5000 you get the 350Mhz probes added.
The siglent costs "much more" and came with the cheapest things along....
But I did stop weeping in my cushion and take from time to time a look in ebay, for affordable probes.
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A minor bug:
When using a switchable X1/X10 probe with readout actuator, the scope says probe connected when switching from X1 to X10, and says probe disconnected when switching from X10 to X1. Neither message is correct, as the probe is connected at all times during the switching between X1 and X10.
This is a SDS2204X+.
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Please post it there (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/msg3035508/#msg3035508)...
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A minor bug:
When using a switchable X1/X10 probe with readout actuator, the scope says probe connected when switching from X1 to X10, and says probe disconnected when switching from X10 to X1.
This is a SDS2204X+.
Could you please check the probes readout pin resistance for both 1x and 10x and report the values here.
I would expect 1x to be infinity like when using a BNC cable.
Neither message is correct, as the probe is connected at all times during the switching between X1 and X10.
Default is 1x without a probe, 1x probe or with a BNC cable connected where the scope doesn't differentiate if a 1x probe or BNC cable is connected or open BNC's for that matter.
Maybe if the OSD messaged: <insert last used attenuation>:1 probe disconnected it would be better for the users OSD message. :-//
Whaddya reckon ?
Feature request ?
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Thank You Howard ! :D
I made up my mind and will open a new thread where the features between both scopes are listed, like math functions, trigger, etc..
Siglent support itself claimed the mso5000 as the "true" opponent to the sds2k and I want them to fill up their features they don´t got, but the rigol does...
Yes, please! I would very much appreciate it.
Also what would be great is to collect a wishlist for some possible software improvements in one table to be able see if
there's any progress. Ideally as some online spreadsheet.
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A minor bug:
When using a switchable X1/X10 probe with readout actuator, the scope says probe connected when switching from X1 to X10, and says probe disconnected when switching from X10 to X1. Neither message is correct, as the probe is connected at all times during the switching between X1 and X10.
This is a SDS2204X+.
It cannot be done.. Scope doesn't detect if something is connected to BNC. It can only detect if ring on the outside of BNC is connected to pin on a 10x probe. So it knows if ring on the 10x probe is or isn't connected. It doesn't know if you connected BNC cable to it.
So it can only show "10x probe detected" , "10X probe was detected but now is not being detected anymore since few seconds ago" or "I have no clue if something is connected"..
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Wondering if anyone else has noticed a problem with channel 4 being off in the vertical scale, especially noticeable in the 500uV scale?
Not sure if I need to add this to the bugs thread, so though I'd ask here first if any other 2000X Plus users have noticed the same thing. Its only with channel 4, but even having left the scope on for many hours to warm up and run multiple self calibrations (just before these screen shots again) I seem to see a large offset with nothing connected to channel 4's inputs.
I've noticed it because I've been doing some measurements using several of the channels for inputs and outputs of a signal processing circuit I'm working on and wondered why I was always having the trace on channel 4 always as showing as being off, when I'm expecting an essentially zero offset. You'll see from the measurements this is also affecting Pk-Pk and RMS measurements as well. As I was trying to measure noise on an opamp circuit, these Pk-Pk and RMS values were worrying me, but realised I think there's this scope issue with channel 4.
I realise on a 500uV scale, there will always be some slight offsets, and I've switched on the other channels 1-3 to show as a comparison as well. Channels 1-3 do what I'd expect, but I've noticed the problem now several times with channel 4. So I've just done 2 self calibrations in a row to try and fix it, but still there. It doesn't seem to make a difference in 8 bit or 10 bit mode either.
I've been able to narrow it down to being the worst when channel 4 is DC coupled with 50 Ohm termination. This is my first screenshot. Second is not as bad when in 1M Ohm termination, but still too far out for my liking, especially for this scale. These are all taken with nothing connected to any of the inputs, to try and isolate the issue, but the problem is coming up with my supplied probes being connected as well.
Is it a hardware issue with channel 4 on my scope? Or is this something that needs to be fixed with a firmware update to correct the self calibration function for channel 4?
Be interested if others could try it on their scopes with channel 4 in the 500uV scale and see if they notice the same issue.
Thanks.
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Just notice the labeling C1, C2, C3, C4.
Isn´t it more common to use CH1, CH2, CH3, CH4 in the industry? :)
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A drink was spilled on the new SDS2102X Plus and required disassembly to clean and dry up. :-\
Per request here's a few images of the inside to compare with the 4 channel version.
Must say this is one of the best overall constructed electronic instruments I've experienced. The sheet metal work is beautifully done and fits like a glove. The power supply and main PCB are of equal quality. Everything about this instrument just speaks to good engineering and quality, well done Siglent :-+
Best,
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Could you please check the probes readout pin resistance for both 1x and 10x and report the values here.
I would expect 1x to be infinity like when using a BNC cable.
Default is 1x without a probe, 1x probe or with a BNC cable connected where the scope doesn't differentiate if a 1x probe or BNC cable is connected or open BNC's for that matter.
Maybe if the OSD messaged: <insert last used attenuation>:1 probe disconnected it would be better for the users OSD message. :-//
Whaddya reckon ?
Feature request ?
1X is open circuit and 10X is 12K.
As 2N3055 points out, based solely on the RA sensor, there is no way to distinguish between 1X and no probe.
In my case, the probe was still connected to a signal which was being displayed as I switched form 10X to 1X. So obviously the scope could have known that the probe hadn't been disconnected. Probably not something most users would expect it to do.
Rather I would suggest that the message say that the Channel has changed to 1X, or 10X, etc. Drop the probe connected or disconnected part of the message.
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Also what would be great is to collect a wishlist for some possible software improvements in one table to be able see if
there's any progress. Ideally as some online spreadsheet.
We already got the wishlist : Bugs and Missing Features Thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/msg3035508/#msg3035508)
Martin
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https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds2000x-plus (https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds2000x-plus)
So what to do about it? :-//
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Date: 8/12/2020
Version: 1.3.5R10
Revision: 1. Fixed a bug that a firmware upgrade kills the scope if a previous upgrade from the WebServer was failed.
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So what to do about it? :-//
This is a general thread for all siglent products, the other for the sds2k+ only.
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This is a general thread for all siglent products, the other for the sds2k+ only.
Are you sure?
The thread name for this thread in the forum index is "Siglent SDS2000X Plus"
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No,
I don´t mean THIS thread as a general, see his link.
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A drink was spilled on the new SDS2102X Plus and required disassembly to clean and dry up. :-\
Per request here's a few images of the inside to compare with the 4 channel version.
Must say this is one of the best overall constructed electronic instruments I've experienced. The sheet metal work is beautifully done and fits like a glove. The power supply and main PCB are of equal quality. Everything about this instrument just speaks to good engineering and quality, well done Siglent :-+
Best,
The scope has been thoroughly cleaned and reassembled, final cleanup was the control panel and PCB had some sticky drink residue. Let scope run for an hour to warm up then did a self-cal (nice feature!). Gave the Bode plot a quick run with a simple RC low pass, here's the result. Back in business :-+
Best,
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Puuhhh, lucky one ;D :-+
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Date: 8/12/2020
Version: 1.3.5R10
Revision: 1. Fixed a bug that a firmware upgrade kills the scope if a previous upgrade from the WebServer was failed.
Good !
Best V1.3.5R3 is removed so to not cause more issues.
Q.
Only that issue was fixed ? :-//
None of the other bugs ?
I guess we'll just have to check for ourselves. :popcorn:
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FWIw the unit I received last week was loaded with 1.3.5R7.
Seems they like to tinker.
It’s a double edged sword, frequent releases often means there’s a risk of bugs due to lack of regression testing. On the other hand, there’s the other option of chucking it out and rarely revisiting, a la Rigol.
If I am to draw any conclusions in my comparison between the MSO5000 way and the SDS2000X Plus way, I have been very surprised and impressed about the quality of the firmware from the Siglent, it far surpassed my expectations, but then I’d been in tears over the Rigol for a couple of days earlier.
If anyone wants any more comparative tests doing, please let me know and I’ll see if I can do it.
To Tautech: is there a front panel protection cover for SDS2000X+?
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FWIw the unit I received last week was loaded with 1.3.5R7.
Good to know....must check mine.
To Tautech: is there a front panel protection cover for SDS2000X+?
Not AFAIK.
Never seen any listed in the accessories and nutthing on my price list.
Ohio branch do a hardcase but we can't get them outside the US: ......already tried.
https://siglentna.com/product/hard-shell-carry-case/
Martin found one in the EU for his Plus.
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Puuhhh, lucky one ;D :-+
Yes, very lucky indeed :phew:
Don't think this was in Siglent's design requirements tho :o
The good news is I got a first hand self guided tour of the scope's insides. Was a complete surprise just how well this scope is designed and assembled, not just a pretty face on a cheaply designed and assembled device like we've all often seen before. Everything is 1st class, from the metalwork, the PCBs, mounting, even using inserts & bolts where you would expect sheet metal screws. The front panel has a very nice silicone membrane with the push buttons molded on, it covers most of the Front Panle PCB and helped protect the PCB from the liquid (the scope actually worked after it dried from the drink spill, the membrane help contain the spill).
Best,
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Only that issue was fixed ? :-//
None of the other bugs ?
Maybe ist was a really bad ass thing and they wanted to pull it out as soon as possible.
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If I am to draw any conclusions in my comparison between the MSO5000 way and the SDS2000X Plus way, I have been very surprised and impressed about the quality of the firmware from the Siglent, it far surpassed my expectations, but then I’d been in tears over the Rigol for a couple of days earlier.
I'm not a software type (retired IC designer), but due to an accident I got a 1st hand review of the SDS2102X Plus hardware and equally impressed.
Thanks for the comparison video, nicely done!!
Best,
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Only that issue was fixed ? :-//
None of the other bugs ?
Maybe ist was a really bad ass thing and they wanted to pull it out as soon as possible.
It was and a recovery package had to be made quickly for it that sidestepped the early FW and installed a later version but that was some months ago.
What else has changed is more important...at least to me. :popcorn:
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Well,at the forthcoming weekend I´ll install it and check it out...
(First guess : the info-boxes could be modified ( shows again DC/AC instead of only D oder A...As you remember, a user here got a beta-version and you could saw this)
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First guess : the info-boxes could be modified ( shows again DC/AC instead of only D oder A..
Yepp:
[attachimg=1]
Quick test if other things would be modified : For example, AWG settings will still be lost after reboot/shutdown.
Edit: picture upload still sucks....
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Is it a hardware issue with channel 4 on my scope? Or is this something that needs to be fixed with a firmware update to correct the self calibration function for channel 4?
Be interested if others could try it on their scopes with channel 4 in the 500uV scale and see if they notice the same issue.
Just further to this...
My scope was delivered with 5.0.1.3.5R5, I've just upgraded it to the latest (at this time) 5.0.1.3.5R10.
I've redone the self calibration and now it is showing what I think is acceptable values for a 500uV scale, see attached.
So as I couldn't get it any where near this after several self calibrations, specifically being an issue for channel 4, it looks like the latest R10 version has corrected my vertical offset issue!
EDIT: its still more out with 50 Ohm termination compared to 1M Ohm, but not as bad as before.
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Hi,
specifically being an issue for channel 4
I don´t think so, because I´m just test your settings and here is channel 1 the "bad" . ;)
Didn´t calibrate it after firmware update, do this later and post the result.
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I don´t think so, because I´m just test your settings and here is channel 1 the "bad" . ;)
Didn´t calibrate it after firmware update, do this later and post the result.
Hmm ok, interesting you're seeing it in channel 1 instead.
I believe you should always run a self calibration though after doing a firmware update? (after at least 20 min warm up?)
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Yes.
Did the upgrade last evening, today I´ll let it calibrate.
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Did it, after warming up for 30min.
Looks good so far ( I´m still too dumb for the measure menu...or it´s indeed buggy).
Edit: Ah, don´t saw it that you´re using the 10bit mode..
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Same, but in 10bit....
And thank god, I´m not too dumb for the measure, it´s a bug. ;)
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Hello,
I have a very specific question for you guys.
Do you know how if the trigger if this little 2000X Plus works well on analog video signals ?
I'm looking for trigger on a specific line of a slightly noisy PAL video signal ( and not a perfect noise free ).
rock stable or not ?
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Sorry to say but not really.
First there is no clamping, you have to use a clamping diode in ac-coupled signals to get a stable trigger level.
The preset PAL does not work at all (no sync).
In custom setting with PAL parameters it works, but fields are not distinguished.
You can trigger on a specific line but you will get alternating contend of the two interlaced subframes.
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Hello,
I have a very specific question for you guys.
Do you know how if the trigger if this little 2000X Plus works well on analog video signals ?
I'm looking for trigger on a specific line of a slightly noisy PAL video signal ( and not a perfect noise free ).
rock stable or not ?
I imagine it should be easy peasy !
You have 2 Zone triggers you can edit and place anywhere you like.
While I didn't have a PAL signal available the SPO signal from an STB3 is a bitch to get rock solid triggering on and while lengthening Holdoff allows you to trigger on a burst it triggers on any burst of course.
Here I stopped the scope twice to set each zone and after setting Zone 2 triggering was a solid as a rock.
H Pos allowed taking the trigger point and zones off the display to inspect each burst.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1049066)
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Sorry to say but not really.
First there is no clamping, you have to use a clamping diode in ac-coupled signals to get a stable trigger level.
The preset PAL does not work at all (no sync).
In custom setting with PAL parameters it works, but fields are not distinguished.
You can trigger on a specific line but you will get alternating contend of the two interlaced subframes.
Well, I had to try it out, and managed to find a camera with composite out ;D
The preset PAL worked fine for me and I can select what line 1-313 to trig on. Also a diode can easily be added in a BNC-T - no big deal for something as specialized as this. Also it was nice to able to capture ~5 fields at full 2GS/s and be able to zoom in 8)
However this did NOT work for me and likely bugs:
- Field selection does not work. No matter the setting it trigs on both fields. Changing the field only offsets trigger point 1 field left/right. Also at one point the field setting actually froze for me and I had to reboot the scope to get it back. I could trig on a specific field by adding a zone - but that defeats the line selection and idea of having video trig!
- Line 1 trigs on the first short sync pulse in the last lines in a field - not on the wide field-sync pulse as defined. So line 4 must be selected to trig on line 1... (minor issue)
So as other features of this otherwise great scope, video trig is "not quite there"... (yet?) :-//
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I can't understand why video trigger wouldn't work right off the bat! :palm:
It's one of the most stable things, perfectly understood...
If it's not a PEBCAK it's incredible how in this day and age Siglent has a problem of this type in it's flagship scope line.
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The camera does output an interlaced signal, not progressive-scan cvbs?
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The camera does output an interlaced signal, not progressive-scan cvbs?
Yes, it is a PAL camera. Also the blanking period visibly alternates between even and odd sync sequences. Apparently, I am not the only one experiencing it: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/msg3094348/#msg3094348 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/msg3094348/#msg3094348)
Edit: Attached a shot with a sequence of two captures showing trig on both odd and even fields. Also notice the trigger point is at last hsync before the blanking interval. I would have expected the wide vblank pulses to be the synchronization point for line 1. But I must confess television repair is not my specialty ;)
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SDS2104X Plus arrived yesterday, here's my first impressions: (note that I didn't have any real standalone oscilloscope before, so I'm lacking in comparison points with other scopes)
Quite disappointed when first powering up, there's rather loud fan. I didn't expect it to be anywhere that loud.
Not so surprising because I could see that on reviews, but knobs are rather poor. Almost each one feels slightly different, rotating slightly off-center. I'm not really sure if there's some velocity control algorithm, but the effect is the faster you turn the knob... the slower it changes value. It would be infuriating to use but touchscreen rescues it, so you can at least click/drag/enter value instead of fiddling with these non-indented knobs. (indented H/V coarse knobs work OK)
Changing timebase and vertical scale is reasonably responsive (it's not totally immediate, but it's fine). For some reason waveform updating stops when changing H/V offsets, but I guess this is intentional? (I don't really get why changing offset register would require stopping waveform)
There's only Normal and Peak acquisition modes, no Eres or Average. (these are in Math, but more on that later)
Of course there is no zoom-out capability at the cost of History feature. Which is not necessarily bad, but they really should add configurable setting like 'capture X% outside screen area' to split memory between zoom-out area and history captures to get best of both worlds.
Note that AWG in datasheet is "up to 50MHz", but this is only for sine, square is limited to 5MHz10MHz.
Not tested extensively but Bode plot seems to work. Feels slow but I don't have any other instrument to compare to. UI during Bode operation is nearly unresponsive, so not possible to change display settings when it is doing its thing.
There are few Chinese-type software quirks, but nothing really annoying. (like, what's easiest way to lock up scope? Press Touch button and then Auto Setup ...) (or, it already struggles with fillrate on drawing UI on that screen, but open/close for side menu is animated.. WHY)
And going to Math functions, they are just.. slow. Really slow. It's performance is directly dependent on configured memory depth, and I'm not quite sure why (this thing have 1024px wide screen, not HD by any stretch, so why it keeps processing over whole capture memory, only to throw it away for display on this lowres screen?) At higher memory depths it takes multiple seconds to just do single update of simplest functions (like channel subtraction).
Missed big opportunity with mouse support, measure tool with mouse rectangle selection would be great. (you just have to grab measure lines individually and drag it, and it sucks if you accidentally grab waveform instead).
Does anyone had success with using USB WiFi dongles with it? Poking around filesystem I only found driver for rtl8188eu, so I ordered dongle with that chip and I'll see how it goes. Configuring wpa_supplicant manually will work for sure, but maybe there is a way to activate configuration GUI from other Siglent scopes that officially supports wifi?
I can't really recommend it as gaming scope, as it's only achieves around 3fps in Doom. :-DD (this partially explains poor Math performance, and also good performance of normal waveform display, as you can see it is overlaid on screen and completely bypasses scope operating system)
Not necessarily related to this scope, but some comment: I don't get why these entry-level (but not cheapest) scopes don't have proper GPU included. There really isn't Zynq-like chip with Mali GPU? Or even they could slap some cheap mass-produced mobile SoC and link it up with FPGA with PCIe/USB3. Give it a HD screen, proper hardware accelerated UI that gets stable 60fps, maybe even offload all these Math features to compute shaders. But no, we instead end up getting CPU-blitted UI, so that leads to lowres screens, and any feature that have to be fast is hacked around by directly overlaying waveform from FPGA onto screen.
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@milek7: very accurate description. It is the same experience I had. This scope has very nice specs, But poorly executed
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Just did a quick test to see the smallest displayable features in X and Y for the new to me SDS2102X Plus. Input was a SDG2042X at 1KHz sine wave a 5mv, scope dc coupled at full BW (upgraded to 350MHz), 500uv/div, 10bit mode, and 50 ohms input termination. Zoom was enabled (maximum) and as you might expect some randomness (noise) in the waveform is observable.
Here's a print screen showing a vertical & horizontal minimum discrete steps. The delta X shows 0.5ns/step and the delta Y shows 8.33uv for minimum discrete step. Think this agrees with the 2GSPS ADC rate and vertical screen resolution (600), 8 and 10bit (oversampled) resolution. The first screen capture shows the Vectors (interpolated) and second shows Dots (actual ADC samples).
The more I play around with this scope the more impressed, very nice scope indeed, well done Siglent :-+
Anyway, hope this helps show the actual scope performance.
Best,
Mike
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Does anyone had success with using USB WiFi dongles with it? Poking around filesystem I only found driver for rtl8188eu, so I ordered dongle with that chip and I'll see how it goes. Configuring wpa_supplicant manually will work for sure, but maybe there is a way to activate configuration GUI from other Siglent scopes that officially supports wifi?
WiFi for the Plus is unsupported as you are aware however something like this is probably the simplest solution:
(http://www.vonets.com/UploadFile/PicTure/201504081500.jpg)
Bit more here in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/cheap-wifi-for-sds1000x-e/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/cheap-wifi-for-sds1000x-e/)
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This scope has very nice specs, But poorly executed
Just to clarify, my post might come as negative but I'm generally happy with this scope. There are some issues but from what I read Rigol MSO5k competition is actually worse in UI responsiveness, and perf/$ just isn't there with Keysight.
WiFi for the Plus is unsupported as you are aware however something like this is probably the simplest solution:
Yeah, but this is adding more tangled cables at the back and I would rather avoid that.
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Here's a print screen showing a vertical & horizontal minimum discrete steps. The delta X shows 0.5ns/step and the delta Y shows 8.33uv for minimum discrete step. Think this agrees with the 2GSPS ADC rate and vertical screen resolution (600), 8 and 10bit (oversampled) resolution. The first screen capture shows the Vectors (interpolated) and second shows Dots (actual ADC samples).
Hi. You write 8.33uV per discrete step and show that the cursors span TWO steps ;D
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WiFi for the Plus is unsupported as you are aware however something like this is probably the simplest solution:
Yeah, but this is adding more tangled cables at the back and I would rather avoid that.
Understood although unlike the SDS5000X models you have just 2 USB-A sockets to work with and as they are both on the front and you'l probably want one for a mouse they run out pretty quick unless you use a USB hub which adds to the clutter you're trying to avoid.
The USB-B rear socket could be repurposed to power the WiFi module which would preserve the 2 front panel USB sockets for other uses.
Anyways, you'll work it out. :)
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Not necessarily related to this scope, but some comment: I don't get why these entry-level (but not cheapest) scopes don't have proper GPU included. There really isn't Zynq-like chip with Mali GPU? Or even they could slap some cheap mass-produced mobile SoC and link it up with FPGA with PCIe/USB3. Give it a HD screen, proper hardware accelerated UI that gets stable 60fps, maybe even offload all these Math features to compute shaders. But no, we instead end up getting CPU-blitted UI, so that leads to lowres screens, and any feature that have to be fast is hacked around by directly overlaying waveform from FPGA onto screen.
Here we go again... :palm:
Try to do the same for the same amount of $$$.
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1024x600 "Low-Res" Screen.....LOL.
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If it's not high res the argument it's low makes sense to me. It's not even 720p so it's definitely not high res.
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For me who work with lecroy* scopes with vga resolution, it´s high-res... 8)
*)Exept our two new ones with 1280x800
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1280x800 with a 10" screen is what I'd call high res. If you push that resolution to/passed ~12-13" you lose me. It really all depends on many factors. The farther you are from it, the lower it can be(but scopes are usually close). Depending on the quality of the LCD resolution can seem worse than it is (it's mostly an opportunity to make it look worse). Compared to something like the 1054Z I bet the screen looks fantastic. In the end it's just 1 piece of the puzzle and I don't think it's going to be a deciding factor for most scope purchasers.
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To be honest, I give a s**t of the resolution - Will you look a movie on it or watch simply "drawed lines and curves"....
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That's the point. It's not required for a scope but it is a nice thing to have.
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Maybe therefore our new lecroy got "only" 1280x800, although they got 12.1" and 15.4" displays.
Well, the intel i5/7 cpu will not have any sweat handle this resolution with it´s own gpu area(they got intel 4-core i5/7 processors with 8GB ram....The performance in general is "wow!").
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What makes a scope is the measurements and triggers. Not necessarily the fidelity or clarity of the display. The waveform display just gives you an idea what to look for.
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That's the point. It's not required for a scope but it is a nice thing to have.
No actually it's a horrible thing. It unnecessarily creates huge load on hardware without giving any benefit.
More than 96 DPI on the screen is not useful from normal viewing distances..
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That's a ridiculous argument because those things aren't correlated. A nice display doesn't mean it's going to be slow and a crappy display doesn't mean it'll be snappy.
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That's a ridiculous argument because those things aren't correlated. A nice display doesn't mean it's going to be slow and a crappy display doesn't mean it'll be snappy.
Number of pixels does...
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No it doesn't. If you put a 4k display and an arduino to control it then it'll be slow. If you put a 4k display with an appropriate SoC it won't be. You aren't required to mismatch your hardware.
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As you point it out right before, there is no need for a scope to have a high resolution display.
A rectangular waveform, sinusoidal, triangle wouldn´t look better on it.
So what could be the benefit having a high-res screen in real....
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I already said what the benefit is. It's nice. Smoother graphics, smoother text, better graticule displays, being able to label everything accurately without taking up the whole screen. There are all sorts of things you can do by having a higher resolution. Just look at how they went for A1M instead of AC1M. That was likely a design choice limited by the display. They changed it because feedback told them users would rather have more descriptive label for the channel.
You don't need it, but there are things you can have with higher resolution displays you can't get with lower or with fewer trade offs compared to the lower resolution(DPI if you'd like, I'm assuming display size doesn't change). It's all a trade-off and I think Siglent did just fine but if I had a choice I would rather have a bit higher resolution than what they offer(1280x800 for a common resolution). As I said before I DON'T think it's a dealbreaker and it shouldn't be an issue for any of the SDS2000X Plus owners.
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Regardless of resolution or screen dimensions, Siglent needs to fix the waveform crippling effect when the menu is on the right side of the screen. It does not make any sense to compress and expand the image horizontally all the time the menu appears and disappears. A perfect sinewave looks like a stair case.
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It does not make any sense to compress and expand the image horizontally all the time the menu appears and disappears. A perfect sinewave looks like a stair case.
Agree. IMHO, it definitely looks cheap.
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Here's a print screen showing a vertical & horizontal minimum discrete steps. The delta X shows 0.5ns/step and the delta Y shows 8.33uv for minimum discrete step. Think this agrees with the 2GSPS ADC rate and vertical screen resolution (600), 8 and 10bit (oversampled) resolution. The first screen capture shows the Vectors (interpolated) and second shows Dots (actual ADC samples).
Hi. You write 8.33uV per discrete step and show that the cursors span TWO steps ;D
That's because the step in between is not an ADC sample, it's interpolated. See the 2nd screen shot that shows the ADC samples as dots.
Best,
Mike
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... 500uv/div, 10bit mode, and 50 ohms input termination. Zoom was enabled (maximum) ...
Here's a print screen showing a vertical & horizontal minimum discrete steps. The delta X shows 0.5ns/step and the delta Y shows 8.33uv for minimum discrete step.
No.
Here is part of your image again. I have marked ADC sample dots ETA:(for clarify to peoples who do not know SDS2000XP. Naturally not raw ADC samples but from 8 bit raw samples produced "10bit" resolution samples and fBW reduced to max 100 MHz) what I can find with my over best before date eyes.
Minimum step is roughly half you told.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1050302;image)
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That's because the step in between is not an ADC sample, it's interpolated. See the 2nd screen shot that shows the ADC samples as dots.
Since you are running in 10 bit mode, all your steps are interpolated ;D
However, I did the exercise in a previous post and also found that the scope actually has 11 bits in 10 bits mode when running 500uV/div giving a max native resolution of 33uV and 4uV interpolated.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3180170/#msg3180170 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3180170/#msg3180170)
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Regardless of resolution or screen dimensions, Siglent needs to fix the waveform crippling effect when the menu is on the right side of the screen. It does not make any sense to compress and expand the image horizontally all the time the menu appears and disappears. A perfect sinewave looks like a stair case.
I may be in a minority, but I much prefer this to covering up 20% of the waveform whenever a menu comes up, a la MSO5000.
I didn't understand your point "A perfect sinewave looks like a stair case" in this context?
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Regardless of resolution or screen dimensions, Siglent needs to fix the waveform crippling effect when the menu is on the right side of the screen. It does not make any sense to compress and expand the image horizontally all the time the menu appears and disappears. A perfect sinewave looks like a stair case.
I may be in a minority, but I much prefer this to covering up 20% of the waveform whenever a menu comes up, a la MSO5000.
I didn't understand your point "A perfect sinewave looks like a stair case" in this context?
He's referring to the primitive scaling (column culling) applied to the waveform when the menu is open. The waveform is scaled horizontally by just omitting data points without filtering and that messes up the display.
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... 500uv/div, 10bit mode, and 50 ohms input termination. Zoom was enabled (maximum) ...
Here's a print screen showing a vertical & horizontal minimum discrete steps. The delta X shows 0.5ns/step and the delta Y shows 8.33uv for minimum discrete step.
No.
Here is part of your image again. I have marked ADC sample dots what I can find with my over best before date eyes.
Minimum step is roughly half you told.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1050302;image)
I didn't compare the dots on the left to the right, interesting!! These dots on the right, some are in between the dots on the left and it appears the scope can make a 8.33uv/2 step but not in direct sequence. Do you think this is due to the oversampling in the 10 bit mode?
I was impressed with 8.33uv/step, looks as if the scope can do 4.2uv in non-sequential sampling (maybe oversampling in 10 bit mode).
Best,
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Here we go again... :palm:
Try to do the same for the same amount of $$$.
HW cost cannot be the problem there. You can buy board with beefy ARM for ~$100, add display for $50, so only $150 (and that's probably overestimating) more for much better display, scaling and UI performance.
I didn't understand your point "A perfect sinewave looks like a stair case" in this context?
It's quite jarring once you have seen it :-\
But I don't think they can fix it, except by cutting that area like on MSO5k.
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That's because the step in between is not an ADC sample, it's interpolated. See the 2nd screen shot that shows the ADC samples as dots.
Since you are running in 10 bit mode, all your steps are interpolated ;D
However, I did the exercise in a previous post and also found that the scope actually has 11 bits in 10 bits mode when running 500uV/div giving a max native resolution of 33uV and 4uV interpolated.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3180170/#msg3180170 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3180170/#msg3180170)
See the reply above. I was referring to the steps that were introduced by the display processor and not a direct ADC sample measurement which the dots show. What's interesting, as mentioned above, is the 4.2uv steps apparently are not in sequence (in sequence 4.2uv steps are not ADC samples but interpolated for display in between 8.33uv steps which are actual ADC samples).
Either way, nice performance for a scope in this class and something I did not expect :-+
Best,
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Here we go again... :palm:
Try to do the same for the same amount of $$$.
HW cost cannot be the problem there. You can buy board with beefy ARM for ~$100, add display for $50, so only $150 (and that's probably overestimating) more for much better display, scaling and UI performance.
I didn't understand your point "A perfect sinewave looks like a stair case" in this context?
It's quite jarring once you have seen it :-\
But I don't think they can fix it, except by cutting that area like on MSO5k.
Once you see it, it cannot be UNSEEN! I think it is easy to fix, just show the menu over the waveform, then make it configurable how long the menu stays on screen.
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I didn't understand your point "A perfect sinewave looks like a stair case" in this context?
It's quite jarring once you have seen it :-\
But I don't think they can fix it, except by cutting that area like on MSO5k.
Well, they'd have to run the waveform through a proper filter after decimation, before displaying it. It really isn't a big problem, polyphase resampling filters can be done cheaply in an FPGA and they have one attached directly to the CPU. But I guess they chose the smallest one available and there's not resources left. Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure you'd be able to code a decently fast filter just using the NEON SIMD extensions.
Does anyone know the maximum clock speed of the application CPU? Might be possible to infer which device they have used exactly.
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Once you see it, it cannot be UNSEEN! I think it is easy to fix, just show the menu over the waveform, then make it configurable how long the menu stays on screen.
I saw it day one.. honestly it doesnt really bother me.. i dont care for perfection but rather did it tell me what i wanted to know.. if i want to see more i'll change the setting and move on
That said they should maybe have an option to allow image scaling to be turned on or off, or clipping if you want to look at it that way. Think i said this somewhere before once long ago
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Once you see it, it cannot be UNSEEN! I think it is easy to fix, just show the menu over the waveform, then make it configurable how long the menu stays on screen.
I saw it day one.. honestly it doesnt really bother me.. i dont care for perfection but rather did it tell me what i wanted to know.. if i want to see more i'll change the setting and move on
That said they should maybe have an option to allow image scaling to be turned on or off, or clipping if you want to look at it that way. Think i said this somewhere before once long ago
I can't say I ever noticed it until I was looking for it. It certainly doesn't bother me. After using the Rigol that crops the right ~20% of the waveform compared to having it compressed, I'd always go for the compressed option myself.
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Oh, I´ll let pop up a menu and the waveform is getting bad while this...
Don´t know the english meaning but in german we say it´s a "phantom schmerz"... ;)
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Oh, I´ll let pop up a menu and the waveform is getting bad while this...
Don´t know the english meaning but in german we say it´s a "phantom schmerz"... ;)
This one is universal:
“There is no worse blind man than the one who doesn’t want to see. There is no worse deaf man than the one who doesn’t want to hear. And there is no worse madman than the one who doesn’t want to understand.” -Ancient Proverb
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I got the scope, I see it, but it doesn´t bother me - What am I in this case ? ;)
As long as I take adjustments in the menu - Why should it interest me, if the current waveform are not crispy displaying while I´m doing this ?
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That's because the step in between is not an ADC sample, it's interpolated. See the 2nd screen shot that shows the ADC samples as dots.
Since you are running in 10 bit mode, all your steps are interpolated ;D
However, I did the exercise in a previous post and also found that the scope actually has 11 bits in 10 bits mode when running 500uV/div giving a max native resolution of 33uV and 4uV interpolated.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3180170/#msg3180170 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3180170/#msg3180170)
See the reply above. I was referring to the steps that were introduced by the display processor and not a direct ADC sample measurement which the dots show. What's interesting, as mentioned above, is the 4.2uv steps apparently are not in sequence (in sequence 4.2uv steps are not ADC samples but interpolated for display in between 8.33uv steps which are actual ADC samples).
Either way, nice performance for a scope in this class and something I did not expect :-+
Best,
In 10bit mode full range is 1024 and 8bit mode 256. Now of course in 10bit mode result is produced from 8bit resolution raw ADC samples. It is not just for display, it also produce 10bit data to memory (using two bytes, one 8bit data and one 2 bit data and rest bits nonsense foe one data point.)
Display have 8 div vertically. 480pixel afaik. (main window alone without vertical split for zoom)
When scope is in 8bit mode this 8 vertical div equals 240 from 256 ADC full scale.
Not nice to explain with poor finglish language.
In 10bit mode it produce computed "artificalADC" vertical values, just like if there is 10bit ADC but somehow reduced performance of course. These "aADC samples" are displayed. But, this aADC can not produce 500ps interval data. So there must be some level repeated fulfill dots. In your image there is lot of dots outside of vertical area in this time slice in image so bit difficult to say why there is not just 4.17uV step visible in sequence what in theory must be possible.
In 10bit mode things can multiply 4 so that now 8 vertical div in display equals 4*240 "aADC" steps so 960 steps.
Now you show display where was used 500uV/div. So, full display 8 div voltage range is 4000uV. With 10bit mode one "aADC" step equals 4000/960= 4.17uV (4.1666...)
if they are not sequential in your image it is due to your captured signal and "random". Do it enough and you must see also other kind of cases. it must be. But remember! In your displayed image there was 2GSa/s! It can not produce 10bit resolution 2GSa/s stream, so that computed "aADC" level changes true interval is 500ps!!
In every place it is told 10bit mode max BW is 100 MHz. Naturally you can not find sequential 500ps interval samples what sequentially step using 4.17uV steps. So, this fact need also remember when analyze display dots or what ever there. Yes it produce 500ps interval dots but computed vertical 10bit resolution steps can not follow 500ps interval exept if you see some display interpolation generated fulfill dots.
But if you drive in wideband real random enough wide band noise and take out this 10bit resolution data, I believe, you can easy see this 10bit resolution and if setting is 500uV/div you see nice distribution where exists all resolution steps where step is around 4.17uV.
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Measure in "simple" mode is rather slow (at >=2M memory depths). But on "advanced" mode it is much faster, but it noticeably screws up waveform update rate. What's going on there? :scared:
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but it noticeably screws up waveform update rate.
It´s normal behaviour...
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Boot time of 45 seconds is just acceptable.
The more features a scope got, the longer it will boot - 45 seconds is in nower days a good value.
Just got a R&S RTB2004 at work today. I was pleasantly surprised that it boots in about 10s!...
Actually it is interesting to compare it to the SDS2000X+, and I could elaborate on my tests/impressions, if anyone are interested...
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I was pleasantly surprised that it boots in about 10s!...
SSD I guess... ;D ;)
Our new lecroys (Windows 10 OS) are booting under a minute, didn´t stopped that.
Rigol MSO5000 was over a minute, after firmware update appx 50s.... 8)
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No, it just doesn't run Linux.
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Ah, an other OS sytem or a own one ?
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RTOS
EDIT: Updated image with screenshot for clarity.
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R&S runs Free RTOS.
What about Rigol and Siglent?
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R&S runs Free RTOS.
What about Rigol and Siglent?
siglent is linux, easy to deal with
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I don't have any problems due to FreeRTOS... Are you saying it'd be a better scope if it was Linux?
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I don’t think it makes any difference from the user perspective
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I don’t think it makes any difference from the user perspective
It’s likely to boot significantly faster with FreeRTOS, as we’ve seen.
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I don’t think it makes any difference from the user perspective
It’s likely to boot significantly faster with FreeRTOS, as we’ve seen.
I am pretty certain that a Linux system can be booted just as fast, if you spend a little effort on configuration and especially stripping down the system to exactly what you need.
I guess Siglent started from the standard PetaLinux distribution and didn't put a lot of time into optimizing.
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Is there a way to setup the script for SDS2104X?
I tried SDS2000X-E and SDS2000X+ as the model number but neither works
Also.. ran into this in another thread and it matches all my keys, this should full unlock anyone
https://repl.it/repls/GainsboroAlienatedText
If you move stuff in otheropt up into bwopt, you can get keys for options.
Yes, the script is a bit broken, the "gen" function doesn't take it's argument into account.
But apart from that, I can confirm that it produces valid keys, except for the power analyzer option. I naively added 'PA' (that seems to be the name of the option) to the opts but the generated key doesn't match.
It's PWA
use this version i modded just for the SDS2000X+
https://repl.it/repls/DirectProbableTwintext
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Is there a way to setup the script for SDS2104X?
Nope.
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Thanks. Is there any way to hack the options for the old SDS2104X?
Is there a way to setup the script for SDS2104X?
Nope.
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Thanks. Is there any way to hack the options for the old SDS2104X?
Have a look here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-time-buyers-oscilloscope-analysis-paralysis-help!!!!!/msg2686422/#msg2686422 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-time-buyers-oscilloscope-analysis-paralysis-help!!!!!/msg2686422/#msg2686422)
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Thanks. Is there any way to hack the options for the old SDS2104X?
Have a look here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-time-buyers-oscilloscope-analysis-paralysis-help!!!!!/msg2686422/#msg2686422 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-time-buyers-oscilloscope-analysis-paralysis-help!!!!!/msg2686422/#msg2686422)
Defpom shows how to upgrade BW, not options.
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Getting back OT, here is something for when the need arises...
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Hello all,
related to the bug affecting the possibility to load a waveform in a csv file into the AWG
Pretty sure its bugged... basically it fails to load for X reason and wont tell you why.. try this one.. you will see its the same formatting
Have to wonder if the console puts out any error code
Yep..
cp /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/positive_pulseDC1000ppm.bin /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/positive_pulseDC1000ppm.bin
cp: can't stat '/usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/positive_pulseDC1000ppm.bin': No such file or directory
rm -f /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr/positive_pulseDC1000ppm.info
rm -f /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/positive_pulseDC1000ppm.info
I/O warning : failed to load external entity "/usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/positive_pulseDC1000ppm.info"
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
I/O error : Read-only file system
the last FW release (V1.3.5R10 ) is not yet fixing the issue.
Anyway, looking at the error reported by Elasia, I had the feeling the problem is just the USB-memory is in read-only mode.
So, after connecting to the instrument by telnet and with the USB-memory connected, I used the following command:
mount -o remount,rw,sync /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0
After sending this command, the csv file stored in the USB-memory can be correctly loaded and the related waveform correctly generated
(.bin and .info files will be written in the USB-memory).
Once the issue will be fixed in a new FW release, it would be nice if the interpolation mode could be made selectable between Linear (the actual / default)
and 0-order hold. I will add this request in the Bugs / Missing Features / Feature Requests list.
Hope this info can be helpful for anyone would like to use the AWG with his own created (with EasyWaveX) csv file.
Sergio
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I will add this request in the Bugs / Missing Features / Feature Requests list.
I think we should add "Bug Solutions" to that thread name. :)
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Here is the "instruction" for measuring the max. waveform update rate from siglent...
Somehow, the pdf was broken (thx to sergio for the info) - Now I´ve upload it again.
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Here is the "instruction" for measuring the max. waveform update rate from siglent...
Somehow, the pdf was broken (thx to sergio for the info) - Now I´ve upload it again.
This Siglent "How to test the waveform capture rate" is, how I tell it polite and nicely, just poor.
What is purpose for it. Is it that Siglent here tell what is quality of producing products specifications or what is this.
In this example they give visual result is NOT average max wfm/s update rate what is meaningful if calculate example probability to get rare glitch detected in some time gap.
Then they just take one cycle and inside there measure two trigger event time interval equal frequency and get 135kHz. Now without more explanation then tell that wfm updata rate is over 120kwfm/s. Some may now think it can also be 135kwfm/s.
Even more, in practice with true signals in one special test setup ... do we really measure 10MHz pure sinewaves. Yes this is for test and also other brands do same. So well... borderline ok.
But in my thinking error is that they do not talk anything what is difference between this possible Peak wfm/s value and continuous average wfm/s. Are they shy for show this cap in trigged stream when start TFT update phase. Or why not explain bit more.
There is pause in capture before it start capture again, some other Siglent pauses around 25 times in second due to display process.
I have used external oscilloscope for measure trig out so that I measure whole display and other processing cycle or better if over two cycles. Yes there can be thousands of trigs in one cycle but this whole cycle period need measure for average wfm/s what is much more important than fastest peak value between two triggers what they now nearly show in instructions but without searching most short single period. Other method, without external oscilloscope, is use external counter what can set for this purpose. But there need be careful and user need really know what he is doing and know his counter principles. I have used example Agilent 53131 but it need manually set for this (trigger level and enough time for count so that this scope periodic capturing pause do not mess result).
I have not measured (yet) SDS2000XPlus but I do not claim 120kwfm/s is wrong. I think with my experience that it is perhaps enough right for tell wfm/s up to average what is usually what all advertise. I hope not so many advertise up to max peak speed.
Due to normal oscilloscope use and overall wfm/s value still this is not so important if it is highly accurate value because still it is true only with just said combination of settings.
Btw. It is fun to see that every time I have tested lot of more deeply these many models wfm speed there have been one finding. Nearly right value can get also without signal at all. Just trigger mode auto and without signal soon it start autotrig using minimum trigger interval.
Sequence mode is very different.
In this paper they just measure random speed what is perhaps near truth.
But this test performance is very extremely poor.
My opinion is that in Sequence mode we need know guaranteed speed, guaranteed minimum trigger interval and it can not at all measure like they do it in this paper.
This around same can also do without even external scope, so that take in signal and long enough sequence, then look segments time stamp from start to end and calculate average and this is just average it also is not guaranteed speed what is only what really matter. Why they did not tell it.
But....
This give some kind of value what is perhaps near right but it is not guaranteed max speed. Here with these Siglent models I have tested is some differences between models. Some model average speed and max guaranteed speed difference is more than in some other model.
Measuring guaranteed maximum is bit more complex. And there is also two methods for it.
What is guaranteed max speed.
With this constant speed of trigger events no ANY event is missed.
This do not even need trigger output, naturally.
Of course one other method is where also it can do but then need compare scope input signal and trigger output signal so that no any missing events but I do not explain it now because there is also possible traps depending method.
But one method is easy and bullet proof but bit slow to do.
This method use enough stable pulse generator what can work in single burst mode and there must not be high cycle to cycle jitter if want go to near guarateed max speed border reliable.
If we set oscilloscope for Single Sequence mode and example 50ns/div time scale.
Then we set max amount of segments. I do not know how many in special model just with this time scale, So if max is 50000 then set it.
Now also pulse generator need set for generate exactly 50000 pulse single period and set it for waiting start button or other start method and set for pulse speed what speed we want test if it pass. Say example 500kHz. (2us period)
Then scope in said mode (naturally trigger adjusted so that it trigs reliable with this signal we have set=.
Then start start scope for single and now it is waiting..
Start generator burst. Look if Sequence is ready. If it get all segments we can now say that guaranteed max speed is least 500000 segment/s after we repeat this test enough times without any fail.
Also we can now rise this pulse speed to example 501kHz and look if it still pass until we fuind limit... then step back and tests enough and if all pass this is max quarateed speed with this setup (selected used channel and used time scale and used memory length if we have tested some very different setup max speed)
Example I have tested some other models max quareteed speed have been even more than Siglent specs.
Many times this is not very important detail but in some cases it is very important to know thuis guaranteed speed so that we can trust that sequence have not dropped any events out.
This speed is very very different when we change time scale and also dependent about segment sample length. With slower time scales we can rise amount of max segments reducing segment length what also naturally then reduce samplerate.
In segment mode is perhaps much more important to really know its max guaranteed speed.
In normal visible mode we many times do things where wfm/s update rate is not very important.
If sequence mode drop out some segments it may be total end of game and whole test goes to garbage. There need be perfect sure. So user need evaluate his scope and finds also how to do it reliable way.
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I am pretty certain that a Linux system can be booted just as fast, if you spend a little effort on configuration and especially stripping down the system to exactly what you need.
I guess Siglent started from the standard PetaLinux distribution and didn't put a lot of time into optimizing.
It's not even that, Linux boots to userspace pretty quick. That's the application binary that starts up looong time.
Back to my WiFi troubles..
Eh, I ordered RTL8188EU dongle on aliexpress, but it came with MT7601U. Well, there's also driver included for this in firmware, but I didn't want it because Ralink and Linux means trouble.. and sure enough, it doesn't work. Even on my desktop linux pc. Even after monkeypatching driver the driver to make it work, it just crashes whole system after few minutes of use. Garbage driver, waste of time.
So, instead of ordering another dud I resorted to another solution: I had RTL8192CU dongle lying around, but unfortunately siglent fw doesn't include kernel modules for that chip. But, after tracking down compiler (Sourcery CodeBench Lite 2011.09-50) used, and kernel version that's similar enough (xilinx-v2015.2.01) I managed to compile drivers for that, so if anybody is interested: http://milek7.pl/.stuff/3.19.0-xilinx-rtl8192cu.zip (http://milek7.pl/.stuff/3.19.0-xilinx-rtl8192cu.zip)
Now wlan0 is visible in system, but configuration GUI in app didn't show up.. meh, it needs some more investigation :P
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I looked into it again, but as far I can tell code for WIFI GUI is just missing. There are some leftovers for backend handling, but no way to activate it. It has to be configured manually, but application gets confused with externally started wpa_supplicant on wlan0, (IP settings nor DHCP doesn't quite work) so workaround is to swap interfaces to trick it so wireless is on eth0.
Appended to insmod_before_app.sh, it disables wired interface and switches to wifi when dongle is inserted during startup. driver modules from my previous post, fw/rtlwifi contain firmware files for dongle, /usr/bin/siglent/usr/wifi/wpa.conf needs to be filled manually with wireless params. IP settings are configured normally from scope interface.
echo -n '/usr/bin/siglent/drivers/fw' > /sys/module/firmware_class/parameters/path
insmod /usr/bin/siglent/drivers/rtlwifi.ko
insmod /usr/bin/siglent/drivers/rtl_usb.ko
insmod /usr/bin/siglent/drivers/rtl8192c-common.ko
insmod /usr/bin/siglent/drivers/rtl8192cu.ko
sleep 1
if [ -e /sys/class/net/wlan0/operstate ]
then
ip link set eth0 down
ip link set eth0 name wired
ip link set wlan0 name eth0
wpa_supplicant -Dnl80211 -ieth0 -C/usr/bin/siglent/usr/wifi/wpa_sock -c/usr/bin/siglent/usr/wifi/wpa.conf -B
fi
BTW, password for Utility>Debug menu is "siglentcd"
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BTW, password for Utility>Debug menu is "********"
SERIOUS words of warning !!!!
Please be very careful inside the Debug menu.......better the PW is not widely known.
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better the PW is not widely known.
He should edit his post like for example "PW by request" or similar.
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better the PW is not widely known.
He should edit his post like for example "PW by request" or similar.
Hmmm, respectfully no.
When it is widely shared control is lost and DSO's will get broken.
Owners don't need that, Siglent does not need that !
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Another brick... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYxkU-U)
Although this is a forum of engineers, the problem is that most are not civil engineers... 8)
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Hmmm, respectfully no.
Then siglent should erase this mode by the next FW update, I´ve never seen this by any other scope brand.
Either it is ready for series production or it is in development status.
Then it should not be for sale.
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What kind of things are in this debug menu that make it risky to enter? :o
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What kind of things are in this debug menu that make it risky to enter? :o
The ability to completely erase all calibration data, for one. You don't want to do that by accident, do you?
All in all, there is nothing in this menu that would serve any purpose to the user or even to Siglent support staff. It's utter blunder to have it in a retail instrument, I have to agree.
PS: You get much greater control with the "telnetd" trick. Another blunder, but at least a versatile one.
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For example you can clear the SPI flash calibration data.
With a touch screen, it's easy done unintentionally !
Better stay out of this debug screen, even if you are curious to see what's in it.
If things go wrong, your scope needs to be sent back to the factory !
What kind of things are in this debug menu that make it risky to enter? :o
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Test....
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For example you can clear the SPI flash calibration data.
With a touch screen, it's easy done unintentionally !
Better stay out of this debug screen, even if you are curious to see what's in it.
If things go wrong, your scope needs to be sent back to the factory !
What kind of things are in this debug menu that make it risky to enter? :o
Attachment removed, the file had a .png extension but was actually an uncompressed Windows bitmap. Please be sure you do not do this again as SMF is too dumb to check the magic bytes in the file header before trying to process these files.
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For example you can clear the SPI flash calibration data.
With a touch screen, it's easy done unintentionally !
Better stay out of this debug screen, even if you are curious to see what's in it.
If things go wrong, your scope needs to be sent back to the factory !
What kind of things are in this debug menu that make it risky to enter? :o
Attachment removed, the file had a .png extension but was actually an uncompressed Windows bitmap. Please be sure you do not do this again as SMF is too dumb to check the magic bytes in the file header before trying to process these files.
Sorry for disrupting the list :(
The issue was reported to the moderator yesterday after it occurred to me that things were wrong, however I got an message back from Simon, that he could load this page without problems.
Another thing; this image was coming from an SDS2000X+ with latest software on it grabbed via the EasyScopeX software.
I was unaware of this behavior since I don't upload very often pictures. It's kind of funny that a debug picture of Siglent is blocking the list :)
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lol someone let loose the debug password?
I admit i've found it handy but i've been doing things off the beaten path :P
The two things i do like is on screen calibration export/import and dumping buglog off
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Forum newbie. Forgive me if I am posting in the wrong place. Thank you tautech/tv84 and all the others for info on the SDS2000X+ upgrades. I am about to purchase the SDS2354X+ and wanted your verification of possible enhancements. I am buying close to the full monty as I believe if you profit from features so should the originator of those features. But I will probably dabble in adding things I am curious about. The upgrade from a TeK TDS754A with a floppy (yes flat bellies, those black squares that click when you insert them) will be quite refreshing. I also believe that the hardware is probably slightly different for the 350Mhz in order to get to a software enabled 500. Not confident buying a 100 would actually get to a real 500.
If buying today is there anything that would stand in the way of adding in the features described above? Firmware lockouts, etc?
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Forum newbie. Forgive me if I am posting in the wrong place. Thank you tautech/tv84 and all the others for info on the SDS2000X+ upgrades. I am about to purchase the SDS2354X+ and wanted your verification of possible enhancements. I am buying close to the full monty as I believe if you profit from features so should the originator of those features. But I will probably dabble in adding things I am curious about. The upgrade from a TeK TDS754A with a floppy (yes flat bellies, those black squares that click when you insert them) will be quite refreshing. I also believe that the hardware is probably slightly different for the 350Mhz in order to get to a software enabled 500. Not confident buying a 100 would actually get to a real 500.
If buying today is there anything that would stand in the way of adding in the features described above? Firmware lockouts, etc?
No, and its the same hardware for all units on this model, siglent is pretty open as far as oems go which gets them a lot of hobby buyers
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I am about to purchase the SDS2354X+ and wanted your verification of possible enhancements.
When you will use it in private for your own and don´t worrying of voided warranty, you could buy the 2104X+ and upgrade it to 2504X+ with all options for free....
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Forum newbie. Forgive me if I am posting in the wrong place. Thank you tautech/tv84 and all the others for info on the SDS2000X+ upgrades. I am about to purchase the SDS2354X+ and wanted your verification of possible enhancements. I am buying close to the full monty as I believe if you profit from features so should the originator of those features.
Welcome to the forum.
A commendable perspective which will deliver the 350 MHz rated 10x probes not the 200 MHz switchables supplied with the SDS2104X Plus.
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LOL ;D
Better you spare the probe thing out, as it was a big failure from siglent.
Even the 70Mhz model from rigol (MSO5000, direct opponent) comes with the maximum bandwith probes of the top model.
Where the SDS2104X+ costs appx 400 bucks more and came with the cheapest crap probes ever.
Buy the 2354X+, then you´ll get proper probes with and for it....Not really an argument.
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Thanks all again. I would be with you Martin72 in a heart beat if I was not fortunate enough to have some clients that pay well for my services. One reason to me to pay the premium was to get a base instrument that would do what I needed out of the box. My programming skills stopped with assembly so there is a good chance I might screw up the upgrades. With all I see here that would really be disappointing on my part. I will be posting soon to test your hard work. Let me know if you need anything from the virgin instrument like a binary dump prior to any fiddling.
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Just a little Sunday fun 8)
HackRF: 800MHz, 0dBm -> SDS2504X+, Dot display mode, Persistance 1s (Gain appx -4dBm)
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What are nice quality, useable well matched 10x probes to use with this scope up to 500MHz?
I have the PP215s on a previous 1204-XE and dislike them with a passion. Crappy switch that moves itself, unsharp tips, naff tip ground springs, limited accessories, etc. I've not opened the new probes with the 2104X Plus yet.
Just got a Cal Test CT3288ARA/P6501R which fixed all the annoyances (no switch, sharp gold tips, nice spring tip ground selection included, some useful accessories) - but the compensation doesn't seem to come brilliantly into line. I'll happily admit I don't have much experience with higher bandwidth probes and compensation, perhaps my expectations are unrealistic. If I compare an old PP215 (ch1) to a Pico TA046 differential 800MHz probe I have (ch4) and the P6501R (ch3) the PP215 seems to be able to be true-er to the original signal.
Thoughts?
[attach=1]
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Is everyone's probe readout / probe detect function working as expected?
On the only probe I have with this - Cal Test CT3288ARA/P6501R discussed above - the behaviour I see is:
If I power up with the probe with readout pin connected to any channel on boot I see: "Probe detected: channel x", where x is correct channel. Probe disconnecting and reconnecting never again yields a probe detect message on any of the channels (not just the channel that had the probe attached to start with).
If I power up without any probes connected, then the "probe detected: channel x" and "probe disconnected: channel x" messages all work as you'd expect; every time you connect or disconnect a probe the message appears. .
So it seems that if you have a readout-enabled probe connected at boot that the readout only ever works that first time during the boot process and is dead ever after. Bug, faulty unit, or some weird logic I'm not understanding the benefit of?
My readout pin measures 10.7K to BNC shield.
In the niggles stakes, not having had a scope with readout before, I find it mildly annoying that if you remove a probe with readout that it goes back to 1x, instead of back to whatever you'd set it to last time you'd changed it and not had a probe with readout connected, but I guess that is just "the way it is"... On the basis of seeing how it behaves I'd almost prefer to have the readout function disabled. (eg have a probe without readout connected, set to 10x manually, connect readout probe and disconnect, it's gone back to 1x).
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Is everyone's probe readout / probe detect function working as expected?
On the only probe I have with this - Cal Test CT3288ARA/P6501R discussed above - the behaviour I see is:
If I power up with the probe with readout pin connected to any channel on boot I see: "Probe detected: channel x", where x is correct channel. Probe disconnecting and reconnecting never again yields a probe detect message on any of the channels (not just the channel that had the probe attached to start with).
If I power up without any probes connected, then the "probe detected: channel x" and "probe disconnected: channel x" messages all work as you'd expect; every time you connect or disconnect a probe the message appears. .
So it seems that if you have a readout-enabled probe connected at boot that the readout only ever works that first time during the boot process and is dead ever after. Bug, faulty unit, or some weird logic I'm not understanding the benefit of?
It's a dumb bug. ::)
BTW, to quote the FW version that has an apparent bug is always a good idea. ;)
In the niggles stakes, not having had a scope with readout before, I find it mildly annoying that if you remove a probe with readout that it goes back to 1x, instead of back to whatever you'd set it to last time you'd changed it and not had a probe with readout connected, but I guess that is just "the way it is"... On the basis of seeing how it behaves I'd almost prefer to have the readout function disabled. (eg have a probe without readout connected, set to 10x manually, connect readout probe and disconnect, it's gone back to 1x).
That has been normal behavior for all the probe sense Siglents I've had as removal of the probe indicates to the scope you're planning to connect a 1x probe or a BNC cable.
I guess when you think it through it's not possible to please everyone all of the time. :-//
What would be a universal probe/BNC sense attenuation solution ?
IDK. :-//
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Is everyone's probe readout / probe detect function working as expected?
On the only probe I have with this - Cal Test CT3288ARA/P6501R discussed above - the behaviour I see is:
If I power up with the probe with readout pin connected to any channel on boot I see: "Probe detected: channel x", where x is correct channel. Probe disconnecting and reconnecting never again yields a probe detect message on any of the channels (not just the channel that had the probe attached to start with).
It's a dumb bug. ::)
BTW, to quote the FW version that has an apparent bug is always a good idea. ;)
Thanks, I'm on 1.3.5R10 latest (scope arrived a few days ago with R7 on it which I see isn't on download site). I never tried it unfortunately with R7.
Do I need to report or is it well known? I did try to find it in this thread and the bug thread but perhaps my search-fu was weak on this one... Sounds like you are aware of the issue.
In the niggles stakes, not having had a scope with readout before, I find it mildly annoying that if you remove a probe with readout that it goes back to 1x, instead of back to whatever you'd set it to last time you'd changed it and not had a probe with readout connected, but I guess that is just "the way it is"... On the basis of seeing how it behaves I'd almost prefer to have the readout function disabled. (eg have a probe without readout connected, set to 10x manually, connect readout probe and disconnect, it's gone back to 1x).
That has been normal behavior for all the probe sense Siglents I've had as removal of the probe indicates to the scope you're planning to connect a 1x probe or a BNC cable.
I guess when you think it through it's not possible to please everyone all of the time. :-//
What would be a universal probe/BNC sense attenuation solution ?
IDK. :-//
In my use case (which might not be common I guess) I will often be connecting my Pico TA046 diff probe which has no readout contact but is fixed 10x. Probably less frequent would be swapping a readout 10x fixed probe for a non-readout 10x/1x switchable, usually set to 10x (unless I've had a PP215 finger accident...). Maybe I'll just try and standardise which ports I'm using for which probes. It's sometimes easier to just swap probes on the same channel than move all the settings and the trigger to the different channel.
If the "always switch back to 1x without readout" functionality is highly desirable (are there 10x/1x switchable probes which switch the readout value too when sliding the switch?) then just provide an option (per channel ideally, if not for whole scope) that controls the behaviour. So the option is "No probe readout" and the settings are "1x" or "last set".
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If the "always switch back to 1x without readout" functionality is highly desirable (are there 10x/1x switchable probes which switch the readout value too when sliding the switch?) then just provide an option (per channel ideally, if not for whole scope) that controls the behaviour. So the option is "No probe readout" and the settings are "1x" or "last set".
To default to 1x with nothing sensed is pretty much industry standard.
On my Keysight, if I set 10x probe attn manually, then connect probe with sense pin it will stay 10x, and when I disconnect probe it resets to 1x, it doesn't get back 10x.... If you're using probes without sense pin, it keeps manual settings...
Think about it, it has to behave this way....
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Sounds like you are aware of the issue.
Only now after checking it on a SDS2104X Plus I have here. It's a bug for sure as it shouldn't behave that way.
Sense probes should always be recognized !
What would be a universal probe/BNC sense attenuation solution ?
IDK. :-//
In my use case (which might not be common I guess) I will often be connecting my Pico TA046 diff probe which has no readout contact but is fixed 10x. Probably less frequent would be swapping a readout 10x fixed probe for a non-readout 10x/1x switchable, usually set to 10x (unless I've had a PP215 finger accident...). Maybe I'll just try and standardize which ports I'm using for which probes. It's sometimes easier to just swap probes on the same channel than move all the settings and the trigger to the different channel.
If the "always switch back to 1x without readout" functionality is highly desirable (are there 10x/1x switchable probes which switch the readout value too when sliding the switch?) then just provide an option (per channel ideally, if not for whole scope) that controls the behavior. So the option is "No probe readout" and the settings are "1x" or "last set".
There are other settings that might work for you.
User Default.
You can set the DSO just as you like it (including probe attenuations) and then save this configuration to the Default key.
You can find this feature in the Save/Recall menu where you can save your own settings or use the factory default.
It's recommended you do a factory default first before setting a User default.
Then the probes you have can be assigned to a particular channel already set up for them with the User default.
Colored rings, colored tape or even a colored Sharpie can remind you which channel they are already configured for.
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To default to 1x with nothing sensed is pretty much industry standard.
On my Keysight, if I set 10x probe attn manually, then connect probe with sense pin it will stay 10x, and when I disconnect probe it resets to 1x, it doesn't get back 10x.... If you're using probes without sense pin, it keeps manual settings...
Think about it, it has to behave this way....
I'll give you it sounds like this is the accepted way they behave in the industry. I guess in my probe armory the readout really means "definitely 10x" or "don't know". And in "don't know" I can see either going back to previous selection or always going to 1x have each got some logic to them; I would prefer going back.
I would certainly find the above option useful for sure with my probe selection, it would work much better than the current setup. Maybe another option is just to disable probe readout function (which as it happens, the current bug does for you if you have a readout probe connected on boot!!! :) :) haha)
I think it is more common probably with hobbyists and smaller scale outfits that people are in a mixed environment (with probes acquired over time etc) than a big budget institution having a pristine set of identical OEM behaving probes. I would have thought given Siglent ship non-readout enabled probes by default on the lower end models that this is particularly prevalent here. Like I've done - I've added a single higher spec probe and it is annoying if I swap which port I have it connected as it cancels my manually set 10x which I was using on the PP215 probes.
Anyway, I'll move the discussion on that to the feature requests & bugs thread. It doesn't seem like it would hurt to be able to change the behaviour away from defaulting to 1x.
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Only now after checking it on a SDS2104X Plus I have here. It's a bug for sure as it shouldn't behave that way.
Sense probes should always be recognized !
Ok, I'll stick it in the bugs thread and report it to Siglent.
There are other settings that might work for you.
User Default.
You can set the DSO just as you like it (including probe attenuations) and then save this configuration to the Default key.
You can find this feature in the Save/Recall menu where you can save your own settings or use the factory default.
It's recommended you do a factory default first before setting a User default.
Then the probes you have can be assigned to a particular channel already set up for them with the User default.
Colored rings, colored tape or even a colored Sharpie can remind you which channel they are already configured for.
I'll probably settle for using the one readout probe I have on a single channel and trying to leave it there.
The user defaults is an idea but probably more annoying than just changing the multiplier . At the moment most commonly I've been swapping a probe onto the same channel and wanting to leave the rest of the settings as they were. I'd then have to go back around and change all my channel settings except the probe :)
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Only now after checking it on a SDS2104X Plus I have here. It's a bug for sure as it shouldn't behave that way.
Sense probes should always be recognized !
Ok, I'll stick it in the bugs thread and report it to Siglent.
Already done in an email a few minutes ago. :)
There are other settings that might work for you.
User Default.
You can set the DSO just as you like it (including probe attenuations) and then save this configuration to the Default key.
You can find this feature in the Save/Recall menu where you can save your own settings or use the factory default.
It's recommended you do a factory default first before setting a User default.
Then the probes you have can be assigned to a particular channel already set up for them with the User default.
Colored rings, colored tape or even a colored Sharpie can remind you which channel they are already configured for.
I'll probably settle for using the one readout probe I have on a single channel and trying to leave it there.
The user defaults is an idea but probably more annoying than just changing the multiplier . At the moment most commonly I've been swapping a probe onto the same channel and wanting to leave the rest of the settings as they were. I'd then have to go back around and change all my channel settings except the probe :)
Get your head around User defaults as it's a really powerful tool.
I prefer to use it with my scopes now and as I like the ch4 green as my primary channel the default returns the trigger and all my settings just as I like them. You can set most anything in the scope just as you like it and have it all returned with the press of a button. :)
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Anyway, I'll move the discussion on that to the feature requests & bugs thread. It doesn't seem like it would hurt to be able to change the behaviour away from defaulting to 1x.
I like it exactly this way. Because all scopes do it this way. So I can have same procedures on any scope... Standards are not exactly optimal for all cases, but more define common ground of deterministic behaviour, something you can rely on.
And when you change probes, you need to check probe setting anyways.
I agree they could add a config option for this. But please do not change default behaviour...
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For anyone here who "enjoys" putting screen protectors on their gear; this one is a perfect fit for the screen, maintains an antiglare matte finish and the touch still works perfectly. Cheap enough at £8.69 for 2 (in fact mine came with 3 in the pack bizarrely)...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01FWXCL2O/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01FWXCL2O/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
They are a very close fit - I tucked the leading edge just under the left hand edge of the bezel and the trailing edge dropped perfectly into place.
Have "fun"! :)
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For anyone here who "enjoys" putting screen protectors on their gear; this one is a perfect fit for the screen, maintains an antiglare matte finish and the touch still works perfectly. Cheap enough at £8.69 for 2 (in fact mine came with 3 in the pack bizarrely)...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01FWXCL2O/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01FWXCL2O/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
They are a very close fit - I tucked the leading edge just under the left hand edge of the bezel and the trailing edge dropped perfectly into place.
Have "fun"! :)
Good find. :)
Try a mouse with the Plus and enter another world of scope control.
I find myself using all 3 input methods. :P
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Try a mouse with the Plus and enter another world of scope control.
I'll have to find some desk space first! :)
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Try a mouse with the Plus and enter another world of scope control.
I'll have to find some desk space first! :)
If you have a mouse, you shouldn’t need desk space, find a shelf above the bench.
I run a KS 3104T like this with a wireless mouse.
Even better, I built a sliding keyboard drawer under the bench, the mouse can be operated with the drawer shut, so zero bench space used even for the mouse.
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I like the mouse control of the scope, but I stay with my cabled mouse. So I have the chance to find it again on my bench by following the cable. With a wireless mouse this could be harder sometimes |O
One question/remark: I use sometimes the Auto Setup button. Is their a way to avoid or switch off the following window on the screen with „Press continue to start Auto setup“?
May be with a Windows like field „Don‘t ask again“, that can be crossed.
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I was curious about the logic analyzer input and did some reverse engineering today.
Based on Daves pictures here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/albums/72157714555911588/with/49964493108/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/albums/72157714555911588/with/49964493108/)
we can see, that the input is a ADCMP562 comperator. Input voltage range -2V to +3V. Input impedance 750 kOhm.
Based on the pictures and measurement the pinout of the connector is found to be:
[attachimg=1]
The measured input impedance directly at the connector is ~9.3 kOhm and it seems the threshold levels are scaled by appx. 1:10, which makes good sense.
[attachimg=2]
Curiously it seems the CMOS levels are incorrect compared to the specified levels...
The probe SPL2016 is specified with 100 kOhm input, so a naive implementation would probably be a 91 kOhm resistor in series nearest the probe tip and probably an AC termination with ~100 Ohm to minimize reflections.
Anybody want to collaborate on a DIY solution?
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I was curious about the logic analyzer input and did some reverse engineering today.
Based on Daves pictures here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/albums/72157714555911588/with/49964493108/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/albums/72157714555911588/with/49964493108/)
we can see, that the input is a ADCMP562 comperator. Input voltage range -2V to +3V. Input impedance 750 kOhm.
Based on the pictures and measurement the pinout of the connector is found to be:
(Attachment Link)
The measured input impedance directly at the connector is ~9.3 kOhm and it seems the threshold levels are scaled by appx. 1:10, which makes good sense.
(Attachment Link)
Curiously it seems the CMOS levels are incorrect compared to the specified levels...
The probe SPL2016 is specified with 100 kOhm input, so a naive implementation would probably be a 91 kOhm resistor in series nearest the probe tip and probably an AC termination with ~100 Ohm to minimize reflections.
Anybody want to collaborate on a DIY solution?
Already done. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3079002/?topicseen#msg3079002 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3079002/?topicseen#msg3079002)
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Hi all,
I got here after watching Daves Siglent SDS2000X Series Oscilloscope Teardown on Youtube. For me this is an extremely interesting and helpful forum. My first scope was a Hameg HM 705 analog scope with 70 MHz bandwidth I purchased forty years ago and I still own. I bought the 2104X Plus with the Logic Probe hardware two weeks ago not at least based on the information I got from this thread. I am looking forward to exchange with you my thoughts and operating experiences with this machine.
By the way I do have problems with some intermittent contact loss on three logical channels, see attached photos. The connection to the scope seems to be the area of the failure as this effect can be provoked by slightly wiggling the connector on Scope side. Does anyone else have seen comparable issues?
Kind Regards
jse
PS Sorry for the "Germish"
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By the way I do have problems with some intermittent contact loss on three logical channels, see attached photos. The connection to the scope seems to be the area of the failure as this effect can be provoked by slightly wiggling the connector on Scope side. Does anyone else have seen comparable issues?
Just checked a unit I have here with very few if any Logic probe cycles and yes some intermittency in its connection here too however on just one channel.
So I pressed and held both probe release catches then pulled and pushed it a few times to clear any possible tarnishing from the pads and contacts which seems to have totally fixed it. :phew: :)
So it seems just a few removal/insertion cycles will improve intermittent connections.
-
By the way I do have problems with some intermittent contact loss on three logical channels, see attached photos. The connection to the scope seems to be the area of the failure as this effect can be provoked by slightly wiggling the connector on Scope side. Does anyone else have seen comparable issues?
Just checked a unit I have here with very few if any Logic probe cycles and yes some intermittency in its connection here too however on just one channel.
So I pressed and held both probe release catches then pulled and pushed it a few times to clear any possible tarnishing from the pads and contacts which seems to have totally fixed it. :phew: :)
So it seems just a few removal/insertion cycles will improve intermittent connections.
Hi tautech,
thanks for the quick feedback. I did the cycling trick as well. But the effect remains. I hope it is a contact surface problem anyhow on PCB side and NOT a problem on Scope side (Connector, Soldering, PCB)...
Regards
jse
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By the way I do have problems with some intermittent contact loss on three logical channels, see attached photos. The connection to the scope seems to be the area of the failure as this effect can be provoked by slightly wiggling the connector on Scope side. Does anyone else have seen comparable issues?
Just checked a unit I have here with very few if any Logic probe cycles and yes some intermittency in its connection here too however on just one channel.
So I pressed and held both probe release catches then pulled and pushed it a few times to clear any possible tarnishing from the pads and contacts which seems to have totally fixed it. :phew: :)
So it seems just a few removal/insertion cycles will improve intermittent connections.
I did the cycling trick as well. But the effect remains. I hope it is a contact surface problem anyhow on PCB side and NOT a problem on Scope side (Connector, Soldering, PCB)...
Understood but let's look at the PCiE socket which I think is through hole and millions of them get soldered onto PC PCB's without problems.
Someone mentioned a while back they do have a mating cycle life however without looking it up I don't know what it is. Maybe yours just needs a few more insertion/removal cycles ? :-//
Time to get my magnifying glass out ....... :popcorn:
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By the way I do have problems with some intermittent contact loss on three logical channels, see attached photos. The connection to the scope seems to be the area of the failure as this effect can be provoked by slightly wiggling the connector on Scope side. Does anyone else have seen comparable issues?
Just checked a unit I have here with very few if any Logic probe cycles and yes some intermittency in its connection here too however on just one channel.
So I pressed and held both probe release catches then pulled and pushed it a few times to clear any possible tarnishing from the pads and contacts which seems to have totally fixed it. :phew: :)
So it seems just a few removal/insertion cycles will improve intermittent connections.
I did the cycling trick as well. But the effect remains. I hope it is a contact surface problem anyhow on PCB side and NOT a problem on Scope side (Connector, Soldering, PCB)...
Understood but let's look at the PCiE socket which I think is through hole and millions of them get soldered onto PC PCB's without problems.
Someone mentioned a while back they do have a mating cycle life however without looking it up I don't know what it is. Maybe yours just needs a few more insertion/removal cycles ? :-//
Time to get my magnifying glass out ....... :popcorn:
Hi tautech,
true, so probably on probe side. It is interesting that it is related to channel 8, 9 and 10 which are located at the edge of the PCB connector (thanks to info from Vestom). Hmmm
I contacted my supplier for further treatment, let's see.
Regards
jse
-
By the way I do have problems with some intermittent contact loss on three logical channels, see attached photos. The connection to the scope seems to be the area of the failure as this effect can be provoked by slightly wiggling the connector on Scope side. Does anyone else have seen comparable issues?
Just checked a unit I have here with very few if any Logic probe cycles and yes some intermittency in its connection here too however on just one channel.
So I pressed and held both probe release catches then pulled and pushed it a few times to clear any possible tarnishing from the pads and contacts which seems to have totally fixed it. :phew: :)
So it seems just a few removal/insertion cycles will improve intermittent connections.
I did the cycling trick as well. But the effect remains. I hope it is a contact surface problem anyhow on PCB side and NOT a problem on Scope side (Connector, Soldering, PCB)...
Understood but let's look at the PCiE socket which I think is through hole and millions of them get soldered onto PC PCB's without problems.
Someone mentioned a while back they do have a mating cycle life however without looking it up I don't know what it is. Maybe yours just needs a few more insertion/removal cycles ? :-//
Time to get my magnifying glass out ....... :popcorn:
true, so probably on probe side. It is interesting that it is related to channel 8, 9 and 10 which are located at the edge of the PCB connector (thanks to info from Vestom). Hmmm
I contacted my supplier for further treatment, let's see.
Update.
A close inspection of the MSO probe plug didn't identify any obvious issues however cleaning of the PCiE plug PCB pads with a cotton bud and IPA has solved all intermittent MSO probe connection problems.
Note, one side has just enough clearance for an ordinary cotton bud while the other side requires a thinner bud or one bashed/squeezed thin or stripped down some.
I'll be checking new stock MSO probes for any repeat of this issue and advising Siglent if there is.
-
By the way I do have problems with some intermittent contact loss on three logical channels, see attached photos. The connection to the scope seems to be the area of the failure as this effect can be provoked by slightly wiggling the connector on Scope side. Does anyone else have seen comparable issues?
Just checked a unit I have here with very few if any Logic probe cycles and yes some intermittency in its connection here too however on just one channel.
So I pressed and held both probe release catches then pulled and pushed it a few times to clear any possible tarnishing from the pads and contacts which seems to have totally fixed it. :phew: :)
So it seems just a few removal/insertion cycles will improve intermittent connections.
I did the cycling trick as well. But the effect remains. I hope it is a contact surface problem anyhow on PCB side and NOT a problem on Scope side (Connector, Soldering, PCB)...
Understood but let's look at the PCiE socket which I think is through hole and millions of them get soldered onto PC PCB's without problems.
Someone mentioned a while back they do have a mating cycle life however without looking it up I don't know what it is. Maybe yours just needs a few more insertion/removal cycles ? :-//
Time to get my magnifying glass out ....... :popcorn:
true, so probably on probe side. It is interesting that it is related to channel 8, 9 and 10 which are located at the edge of the PCB connector (thanks to info from Vestom). Hmmm
I contacted my supplier for further treatment, let's see.
Update.
A close inspection of the MSO probe plug didn't identify any obvious issues however cleaning of the PCiE plug PCB pads with a cotton bud and IPA has solved all intermittent MSO probe connection problems.
Note, one side has just enough clearance for an ordinary cotton bud while the other side requires a thinner bud or one bashed/squeezed thin or stripped down some.
I'll be checking new stock MSO probes for any repeat of this issue and advising Siglent if there is.
Hi tautech,
its's kind of funny I thought "Time to get my magnifying glass out" meant having an after-work beer...
Yes IPA cleaning is always a good idea, but as it's new equipment from supplier (and not the cheapest one) I wait for his advice. For me it's important to know that I am not the only one facing this issue and only do nitpicking.
This kind of connection seems to be a week point and anybody who uses the logic probe without check beforehand could run into nasty "Ghost problems" of the device under test...
Thanks again
jse
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Hi,
where can I find a comparsion (review) between the Rohde & Schwarz RTB2000 Oscilloscope and the Siglent SDS2000X Plus ?
br,
Frank
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Hi guys,
At this time i don't need high R&D capabilities of my Lecroy wavepro oscilloscopes, and i am looking for some smaller oscilloscope.
I have some questions:
1. How good this siglent are in terms of DC offset and saturation? In Lecroy scopes you can offset you signal and "zoom in" up to several times needed piece of you signal without distortion. I mean this https://youtu.be/n_dXvpEV18g?t=155
2. Can someone provide screenshots of sin 200Mhz and 400Mhz with linear interpolation (without sinx/x interpolation) with 2Gs/s and 1Gs/s SR?
3. Can someone provide screenshots of fast rise meander with linear interpolation (without sinx/x interpolation) with 2Gs/s and 1Gs/s SR?
Thanks!
Hi,
Can anyone help me?
Thanks
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Hi guys,
At this time i don't need high R&D capabilities of my Lecroy wavepro oscilloscopes, and i am looking for some smaller oscilloscope.
I have some questions:
1. How good this siglent are in terms of DC offset and saturation? In Lecroy scopes you can offset you signal and "zoom in" up to several times needed piece of you signal without distortion. I mean this https://youtu.be/n_dXvpEV18g?t=155
2. Can someone provide screenshots of sin 200Mhz and 400Mhz with linear interpolation (without sinx/x interpolation) with 2Gs/s and 1Gs/s SR?
3. Can someone provide screenshots of fast rise meander with linear interpolation (without sinx/x interpolation) with 2Gs/s and 1Gs/s SR?
Thanks!
Hi,
Can anyone help me?
Thanks
1. How good this siglent are in terms of DC offset and saturation? In Lecroy scopes you can offset you signal and "zoom in" up to several times needed piece of you signal without distortion. I mean this https://youtu.be/n_dXvpEV18g?t=155
Changing the offset typically adjusts the front end amp offset. The Siglent offers, for example, +/-2V offset for a 100mV/div vertical sensitivity.
Regarding saturation, it's very dependent on front end amplifier recovery time. Typically, I simply wouldn't ever deliberately run a scope's front end outside vertical graticule range. The demonstration in the video you shared isn't showing what they're purporting to show by the way. The MSO5000 has a terribly noisy front end, at least 10dB worse than the Siglent in my measurements. They're also running that demo at quite a slow speed, 1ms/div. While it's interesting to see, they don't show it at higher speeds, there's probably a reason for that.
Anyway, I ran a very similar test for you. 1ms/div, 500mV/div down to 20mV/div in 10 bit. One zoom real time, the other is zooming in on a captured signal.
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
2. Can someone provide screenshots of sin 200Mhz and 400Mhz with linear interpolation (without sinx/x interpolation) with 2Gs/s and 1Gs/s SR?
[attach=4]
[attach=5]
[attach=6]
[attach=7]
3. Can someone provide screenshots of fast rise meander with linear interpolation (without sinx/x interpolation) with 2Gs/s and 1Gs/s SR?
[attach=8]
[attach=9]
[attach=10]
[attach=11]
Edit: forum's done its bit to screw up the picture orders, I am sure you can figure out which is which, I've burned an hour on your questions already, I hope you don't mind.
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hi Howardlong, i really appreciate for your help!!!
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1069316;image (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1069316;image)
As can be clearly seen sinx/x interpolation is used
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1069288;image (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1069288;image)
at what V/div setting there are no visible distortions of a signal? 50mV/div or more?
Best regards,
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hi Howardlong, i really appreciate for your help!!!
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1069316;image (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1069316;image)
As can be clearly seen sinx/x interpolation is used
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1069288;image (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1069288;image)
at what V/div setting there are no visible distortions of a signal? 50mV/div or more?
Best regards,
Sorry, as I mentioned already, I already burned an hour setting up the environment and tests to answer your questions, I strongly advise you to get hold of the scope and try it out yourself, I can see that whatever answers I give are going to be met with more questions.
In short, I have both an MSO5000 and an SDS2000x plus, and overall the Siglent is by far the better purchase. If the Rigol was less buggy, had a more responsive UI, and a less noisy front end, I'd reconsider. Two of those three concerns could be solved in software, but Rigol have had that scope on the market for a long time, so I wouldn't hold your breath. The noisy front end I don't believe is retrievable.
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The noisy front end I don't believe is retrievable.
Therefore and with the answer of the rigol support, the next higher series (7000) won´t do it better, made me changed to siglent, until now with no regret so far in general.
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hi Howardlong, no more questions, again thanks for you help.
I was not interested in china scopes in the past, but Siglent SDS2000X Plus seems not bad "Lecroy copy"
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I was not interested in china scopes
Scopes made in china, scopes with parts made in china or only chinese brands ? ;)
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hi Howardlong, no more questions, again thanks for you help.
I was not interested in china scopes, but Siglent SDS2000X Plus seems not bad "Lecroy copy"
And yet you did seem interested in the MSO5000's front end saturation?
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No, video from rigol was only for illustration what i mean and what Lecroy wavepro oscilloscopes can do without a problem. But can Siglent do that is an open question.
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No, video from rigol was only for illustration what i mean and what Lecroy wavepro oscilloscopes can do.
The effect of wasting peoples time is that they're less likely to help others in the future. If you didn't care then why did you ask?
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No, video from rigol was only for illustration what i mean and what Lecroy wavepro oscilloscopes can do.
The effect of wasting peoples time is that they're less likely to help others in the future. If you didn't care then why did you ask?
where did you get that I don't care ???
I was asking about Siglent SDS2000X Plus capabilities in that aspect, not Rigol!
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No, video from rigol was only for illustration what i mean and what Lecroy wavepro oscilloscopes can do without a problem. But can Siglent do that is an open question.
Can Lecroys do that? Front end offset and saturation are two different things. What is the Lecroy's front end saturation recovery speed?
I wouldn't typically operate a scope front end beyond the graticule limits.
Let's take a look at that Rigol test again. https://youtu.be/n_dXvpEV18g
But this time, instead of a 125Hz signal with ~2kHz modulation on it, let's do it at 1250Hz and 20kHz. So we're still pretty slow. It's not very pretty now, is it?
To me, the test in that video is very misleading, it's not really demonstrating "high resolution", or, by using a cherry picked scenario "better dynamic range".
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
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Can Lecroys do that? Front end offset and saturation are two different things. What is the Lecroy's front end saturation recovery speed?
Hi Howardlong, sorry, its my poor english, I misled you |O. I mean huge frontend DC offset when it linearity is acceptable. But mean saturation in terms of screen, when part of signal is "out of screen".
Pls accept my apologies
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Can Lecroys do that? Front end offset and saturation are two different things. What is the Lecroy's front end saturation recovery speed?
Hi Howardlong, sorry, its my poor english, I misled you |O. I mean huge frontend DC offset when it linearity is acceptable. But mean saturation in terms of screen, when part of signal is "out of screen".
Pls accept my apologies
They achieve that by sampling at 12 bits and displaying at lower resolution when zoomed in. You can do a similar thing with many scopes with >8 bit resolution, including the Siglent, when you use zoom mode when sampling at higher bit resolution, but the video you cited isn’t showing that.
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I couldn't resist more :palm:
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I couldn't resist more :palm:
Hahaha temptation is a bitch... :-DD
Congrats, and hope it will serve you well! :-+
Regards
Siniša
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You´ve bought a box, congrats ! ;)
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I couldn't resist more :palm:
Hahaha temptation is a bitch... :-DD
Congrats, and hope it will serve you well! :-+
Regards
Siniša
Yeah, the SDS2000X Plus is just the thin end of the wedge. :palm:
I haven't taken that step yet but I think it's time to stop prevaricating over choosing an SDG1032X over the SDG2042X and blow another 280 quid on a "cheap" upmarket replacement for my humble FY6600. :)
John
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A few months ago, I was on the decision taking the 1032X or 2042X, because I wanted an external AWG additional to the inbuilt version of the sds2k+
I took the 1032X, turned it to 1062X and never regret it.
I couldn't resist more
You won´t regret it, the sds2k+ musn´t fear any seriously opponents until say 3000...4000bucks, although it did´t got the super-duper 8GSa/s the rigols got.
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I couldn't resist more :palm:
Hahaha temptation is a bitch... :-DD
Congrats, and hope it will serve you well! :-+
Regards
Siniša
Yeah, almost everyone is happy with this baby Lecroy so I couldn't go wrong.
I've had to move around a lot lately and the fact that he's so small is great.
I think it's the cheapest and smallest 10inch screen scope on the market.
The UI and the specs are very good for the price so It will be perfect for working from home.
I already have some ideas for improvement but it is very specific to my use.
I asked Rigol the same things. We will see if Siglent really decided to play in the big brand leagues >:D
I just wanted to add that I usually buy my TE from Batronix but this time I tried at Batterfly and the service is impeccable and very responsive. Bought Friday and delivered Tuesday 8)
I will have to buy some probes and I don't know where to buy because they are both very efficient |O
Now I will be able to check by myself how the SDS2000X Plus manages to trigger on a video signal compared to my Rigol just for curiosity thanks to the small camera that we see in the picture :popcorn:
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A few months ago, I was on the decision taking the 1032X or 2042X, because I wanted an external AWG additional to the inbuilt version of the sds2k+
I took the 1032X, turned it to 1062X and never regret it.
I couldn't resist more
You won´t regret it, the sds2k+ musn´t fear any seriously opponents until say 3000...4000bucks, although it did´t got the super-duper 8GSa/s the rigols got.
We must not exaggerate. There is at least the sds5000x and this is not the same beast.
The thing that kills the market is the keygen!
Besides, who is behind this work? tv84 again?
Martin72, weren't you the one who bought a rigid case for transporting the scope? Do you have a reference?
Thank you :)
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We must not exaggerate
It isn´t, as I got access to new lecroy scopes of the upper class, had the rigol 5000 and could compare - But of course, you´re right, I´ve forgot the 5K.
This is truly the next level.
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Martin72, weren't you the one who bought a rigid case for transporting the scope? Do you have a reference?
Yes it was me and this thing is rock-solid...I´ll search for it, then post it.
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We must not exaggerate
It isn´t, as I got access to new lecroy scopes of the upper class, had the rigol 5000 and could compare - But of course, you´re right, I´ve forgot the 5K.
This is truly the next level.
It's better like that
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It is under the SDS3000 or Lecroy WS3000, which is funny, a higher number in the model name means a higher "position", normally.
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It is under the SDS3000 or Lecroy WS3000, which is funny, a higher number in the model name means a higher "position", normally.
Superseded by SDS3000X. ;)
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Oh, did I forget the "X" in the series ? ;)
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Martin72, weren't you the one who bought a rigid case for transporting the scope? Do you have a reference?
Yes it was me and this thing is rock-solid...I´ll search for it, then post it.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2974750/#msg2974750 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2974750/#msg2974750)
Amazon:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2954846/#msg2954846 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2954846/#msg2954846)
(not the same size, choose the next size)
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Thank you very much Martin :-+
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Oh, did I forget the "X" in the series ? ;)
Yep, similar but 2 different models. SDS3000 and 3000X or WS3000, WS3000Z IIRC.
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Howard,
As usual, your tests tell the truth - thank you!
I have a different question: I have tried many scopes looking for the lowest noise floor and triggering prowess, especially when dealing with very low frequencies - down to 10Hz. After testing multiple RTB with their 10-bit ADCs for their nice FFT capabilities, nearly all of them struggle to reliably trigger on 20Hz at <1mV. In fact, the built-in counter went haywire. The DSOX3014A quite easily locks and triggers onto the same signal but its FFT is very dated and not really usable. Please see attached screenshots.
Would you mind running the same test on your SDS2504X Plus at 10-bits: 10Hz and 20Hz, <1mV sine? All BWL and filters can be in. Thanks!
Steve
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On the RTB did you try using HF reject and Noise reject options for trigger? Also might try to check out the threshold settings on the channel and using AC coupling to make sure no DC offset is affecting measurements(similar to what you show on the keysight). You appear to have some clipping as well so that may be affecting things.
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On the RTB did you try using HF reject and Noise reject options for trigger? Also might try to check out the threshold settings on the channel and using AC coupling to make sure no DC offset is affecting measurements(similar to what you show on the keysight). You appear to have some clipping as well so that may be affecting things.
If I remember correctly, I used every trick in the book to make the RTB2004 sing, including HF reject. These tests were repeated on several RTBs over a one-year period with no significant difference in performance. On an empirical basis, the KS did a better job with the signal, but the RTB's FFT is far better. I am hoping the SDS is indeed a step forward from these and offer a viable one-stop shop solution.
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It'll have to wait until the weekend if I have time but I'll give it a shot. What was the clipping coming from? <1mV pk-pk but clipping tells me it's an ugly source and the RTB do not have an exceptional recovery which may have been your problem. I have a calibrator I'll generate the signal with a very clean output. Since the KS actually amplifies from 4mV it may not have had to deal with the clipping at all but that's just me guessing.
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It'll have to wait until the weekend if I have time but I'll give it a shot. What was the clipping coming from? <1mV pk-pk but clipping tells me it's an ugly source and the RTB do not have an exceptional recovery which may have been your problem. I have a calibrator I'll generate the signal with a very clean output. Since the KS actually amplifies from 4mV it may not have had to deal with the clipping at all but that's just me guessing.
No worries about the wait - I appreciate your help.
My source is a R&S UPV audio analyzer with the B1 Low Distortion generator option. Its output is exceptionally clean. I don't think there would have been any clipping of the output signal but perhaps the input sections of the RTB's I tested added something to the signal they should not have, or that there was insufficient data to accurately draw the waveform due to the low sampling rate.
Attached is an FFT of a 20Hz 500µVrms signal generated by the UPV.
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That's interesting. In your screenshot of the RTB the channel has the arrows up and down which means it is clipping high and low. Additionally the signal even under high res is not very smooth with lots of noise which is why you had 93MHz for the counter. It's just seeing noise(this is where threshold could come in handy along with hf reject for trigger). It might have been better to use averaging instead of high res mode. Could have been probing, env noise, or maybe the RTB just isn't right for these types of measurements.
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That's interesting. In your screenshot of the RTB the channel has the arrows up and down which means it is clipping high and low. Additionally the signal even under high res is not very smooth with lots of noise which is why you had 93MHz for the counter. It's just seeing noise(this is where threshold could come in handy along with hf reject for trigger). It might have been better to use averaging instead of high res mode. Could have been probing, env noise, or maybe the RTB just isn't right for these types of measurements.
You are probably right on most if not all accounts but I encountered no such fussiness with the KS. It was disappointing as I use many R&S instruments and they are all exceptional. I had an earlier RTM which was not better, have not tried the current RTM or RTE, but I do not need their bandwidth or features.
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Im not in the mV game so I don't have fancy TE like your R&S audio analyser but I can try tomorrow with what I have at my disposal.
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I don't have a SDS2504X Plus, but used a SDS2102X Plus with a 20Hz 1mv peak to peak at the input. The input channel setting is 500uv/div, DC coupled, 20MHZ BW limit with 1M Impedance, the trigger was set to Normal, Edge, Rising, HF Reject, Level 0V and Noise Reject ON. Used the standard scope probe at 10X and triggering is OK, wanders slightly and counter reads 19.99~20.02Hz. The scope actually triggers quite well considering the small input, and the counter does a respectable job of counting.
Here's a screen capture, hope this helps.
Edit: Added FFT screen capture as well.
Best,
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I don't have a SDS2504X Plus, but used a SDS2102X Plus with a 20Hz 1mv peak to peak at the input. The input channel setting is 500uv/div, DC coupled, 20MHZ BW limit with 1M Impedance, the trigger was set to Normal, Edge, Rising, HF Reject, Level 0V and Noise Reject ON. Used the standard scope probe at 10X and triggering is OK, wanders slightly and counter reads 19.99~20.02Hz. The scope actually triggers quite well considering the small input, and the counter does a respectable job of counting.
Here's a screen capture, hope this helps.
Edit: Added FFT screen capture as well.
Best,
Excellent and thank you! This is what I was looking for. Would you mind doing a run with say a 1024 Average instead of High Res? Much appreciated!
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I don't have a SDS2504X Plus, but used a SDS2102X Plus with a 20Hz 1mv peak to peak at the input. The input channel setting is 500uv/div, DC coupled, 20MHZ BW limit with 1M Impedance, the trigger was set to Normal, Edge, Rising, HF Reject, Level 0V and Noise Reject ON. Used the standard scope probe at 10X and triggering is OK, wanders slightly and counter reads 19.99~20.02Hz. The scope actually triggers quite well considering the small input, and the counter does a respectable job of counting.
Here's a screen capture, hope this helps.
Edit: Added FFT screen capture as well.
Best,
One more quick question - can the X scale of the FFT change from linear to log?
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I don't have a SDS2504X Plus, but used a SDS2102X Plus with a 20Hz 1mv peak to peak at the input. The input channel setting is 500uv/div, DC coupled, 20MHZ BW limit with 1M Impedance, the trigger was set to Normal, Edge, Rising, HF Reject, Level 0V and Noise Reject ON. Used the standard scope probe at 10X and triggering is OK, wanders slightly and counter reads 19.99~20.02Hz. The scope actually triggers quite well considering the small input, and the counter does a respectable job of counting.
Here's a screen capture, hope this helps.
Edit: Added FFT screen capture as well.
Best,
Excellent and thank you! This is what I was looking for. Would you mind doing a run with say a 1024 Average instead of High Res? Much appreciated!
That will take much too long, here's 8 average. The 1024 Average won't look any different I suspect.
I don't think the FFT on this DSO can show log/decade frequency scale, at least I don't know how to do it.
Best,
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I don't have a SDS2504X Plus, but used a SDS2102X Plus with a 20Hz 1mv peak to peak at the input. The input channel setting is 500uv/div, DC coupled, 20MHZ BW limit with 1M Impedance, the trigger was set to Normal, Edge, Rising, HF Reject, Level 0V and Noise Reject ON. Used the standard scope probe at 10X and triggering is OK, wanders slightly and counter reads 19.99~20.02Hz. The scope actually triggers quite well considering the small input, and the counter does a respectable job of counting.
Here's a screen capture, hope this helps.
Edit: Added FFT screen capture as well.
Best,
Excellent and thank you! This is what I was looking for. Would you mind doing a run with say a 1024 Average instead of High Res? Much appreciated!
That will take much too long, here's 8 average. The 1024 Average won't look any different I suspect.
I don't think the FFT on this DSO can show log/decade frequency scale, at least I don't know how to do it.
Best,
Ahh - sorry I did not mean a 1024 Average FFT, just a 1024 Average trace. This is where the KS really flies - it takes no time to average any trace but the software based RTB was not so fast. It would interesting to see how the SDS fares.
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I don't have a SDS2504X Plus, but used a SDS2102X Plus with a 20Hz 1mv peak to peak at the input. The input channel setting is 500uv/div, DC coupled, 20MHZ BW limit with 1M Impedance, the trigger was set to Normal, Edge, Rising, HF Reject, Level 0V and Noise Reject ON. Used the standard scope probe at 10X and triggering is OK, wanders slightly and counter reads 19.99~20.02Hz. The scope actually triggers quite well considering the small input, and the counter does a respectable job of counting.
Here's a screen capture, hope this helps.
Edit: Added FFT screen capture as well.
Best,
Excellent and thank you! This is what I was looking for. Would you mind doing a run with say a 1024 Average instead of High Res? Much appreciated!
That will take much too long, here's 8 average. The 1024 Average won't look any different I suspect.
I don't think the FFT on this DSO can show log/decade frequency scale, at least I don't know how to do it.
Best,
Ahh - sorry I did not mean a 1024 Average FFT, just a 1024 Average trace. This is where the KS really flies - it takes no time to average any trace but the software based RTB was not so fast. It would interesting to see how the SDS fares.
This is also slow, so less than 1024 averages. I also included the average of the ERES function set to 3.0.
So the Average is 222 and the ERES average is 100.
Best,
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I don't have a SDS2504X Plus, but used a SDS2102X Plus with a 20Hz 1mv peak to peak at the input. The input channel setting is 500uv/div, DC coupled, 20MHZ BW limit with 1M Impedance, the trigger was set to Normal, Edge, Rising, HF Reject, Level 0V and Noise Reject ON. Used the standard scope probe at 10X and triggering is OK, wanders slightly and counter reads 19.99~20.02Hz. The scope actually triggers quite well considering the small input, and the counter does a respectable job of counting.
Here's a screen capture, hope this helps.
Edit: Added FFT screen capture as well.
Best,
Excellent and thank you! This is what I was looking for. Would you mind doing a run with say a 1024 Average instead of High Res? Much appreciated!
That will take much too long, here's 8 average. The 1024 Average won't look any different I suspect.
I don't think the FFT on this DSO can show log/decade frequency scale, at least I don't know how to do it.
Best,
Ahh - sorry I did not mean a 1024 Average FFT, just a 1024 Average trace. This is where the KS really flies - it takes no time to average any trace but the software based RTB was not so fast. It would interesting to see how the SDS fares.
This is also slow, so less than 1024 averages. I also included the average of the ERES function set to 3.0.
So the Average is 222 and the ERES average is 100.
Best,
Nice - very impressive. Thank you once again for your help.
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You are welcome.
I don't deserve any thanks for this fine instrument, I simply "lucked" into the decision to go with Siglent, mainly because of tautech.
BTW the slow process of waveform average is much better with a higher frequency input. Check out the 1MHz input used below, it averaged 1024 waveform reasonably quick. I have been using the max FFT waveform depth of ~2MPts for all FFTs.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds2102x-plus-enhanced-bit-function/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds2102x-plus-enhanced-bit-function/)
Best,
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Of course, you can't average a waveform any faster than you can complete a sweep.
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You are welcome.
I don't deserve any thanks for this fine instrument, I simply "lucked" into the decision to go with Siglent, mainly because of tautech.
BTW the slow process of waveform average is much better with a higher frequency input. Check out the 1MHz input used below, it averaged 1024 waveform reasonably quick. I have been using the max FFT waveform depth of ~2MPts for all FFTs.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds2102x-plus-enhanced-bit-function/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds2102x-plus-enhanced-bit-function/)
Best,
Very convincing - thank you.
One question I have yet to find an answer to is whether the x axis can be in log vs linear scale. The y axis can. This would allow many more harmonic markers to be shown and hence much more useful.
Thanks again.
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One question I have yet to find an answer to is whether the x axis can be in log vs linear scale. The y axis can. This would allow many more harmonic markers to be shown and hence much more useful.
Not available in FFT, only in Bode plot mode.
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Of course, you can't average a waveform any faster than you can complete a sweep.
It does not follow this thinking, the average is much much slower than sweep time.
Best,
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One question I have yet to find an answer to is whether the x axis can be in log vs linear scale. The y axis can. This would allow many more harmonic markers to be shown and hence much more useful.
Not available in FFT, only in Bode plot mode.
Thanks. But what a shame. Would have been so nice.
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One question I have yet to find an answer to is whether the x axis can be in log vs linear scale. The y axis can. This would allow many more harmonic markers to be shown and hence much more useful.
Not available in FFT, only in Bode plot mode.
Thanks. But what a shame. Would have been so nice.
Maybe a firmware update for the future ::)
Best,
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Hello :)
I had asked here I believe how the SDS2000X+ did well for triggering on a video pal signal and the answer was..... no.
What were your settings ?
I haven't yet been able to test on a noisy signal but on a clean signal, it trigs without problem on a line and it is rock stable 8)
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Hello :)
I had asked here I believe how the SDS2000X+ did well for triggering on a video pal signal and the answer was..... no.
What were your settings ?
I haven't yet been able to test on a noisy signal but on a clean signal, it trigs without problem on a line and it is rock stable 8)
You can get a "noisy signal" from the built-in AWG. Just set the AWG to a low amplitude and use a 10X scope probe. For example set AWG to 10mvpp, and the input to the scope will be 1mvpp, or set the AWG to 8mvpp and the input will be 800uvpp.
On my DSO I need about 800uvpp for a reliable trigger with a 1MHz sinewave and a little more for the counter. Here's examples with a noisy 800uvpp signal and using the average function with 16 count to nicely "clean up" the waveform. One is sine wave and the other is a Chirp Waveform, the sine wave trigger is very steady, the Chirp is not as stable but still acceptable, both at 800uvpp.
Added another using the AWG SNR function, which is a sine wave with a PN noise pattern. The frequency was reduced to 1KHz because the "noise" is not random but periodic and at 1MHz this could easily be seen when averaging.
I think this is impressive for a DSO at this modest cost point :-+
Best,
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Hello :)
I had asked here I believe how the SDS2000X+ did well for triggering on a video pal signal and the answer was..... no.
What were your settings ?
I haven't yet been able to test on a noisy signal but on a clean signal, it trigs without problem on a line and it is rock stable 8)
I saw that, and I did originally achieve it reasonably easily on an NTSC signal: I did a pulse trigger on the frame, and added holdoff so it triggered on alternate frames, but other than that it wasn't difficult, it was solid, no problem seeing the colour burst for example thanks to the deep memory.
I've since found a PAL source, I can trigger rock solid on a PAL signal using a negative pulse trigger, it's a little more fiddly, so I'll provide a couple of screen shots. Trick is, as well as getting the pulse width right, to get the trigger level and holdoff right too.
Edit: This was done using the internal 50 ohm load on the 75 ohm signal so levels are a little lower than one might otherwise expect.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
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Hello :)
I had asked here I believe how the SDS2000X+ did well for triggering on a video pal signal and the answer was..... no.
What were your settings ?
I haven't yet been able to test on a noisy signal but on a clean signal, it trigs without problem on a line and it is rock stable 8)
You can get a "noisy signal" from the built-in AWG. Just set the AWG to a low amplitude and use a 10X scope probe. For example set AWG to 10mvpp, and the input to the scope will be 1mvpp, or set the AWG to 8mvpp and the input will be 800uvpp.
On my DSO I need about 800uvpp for a reliable trigger with a 1MHz sinewave and a little more for the counter. Here's examples with a noisy 800uvpp signal and using the average function with 16 count to nicely "clean up" the waveform. One is sine wave and the other is a Chirp Waveform, the sine wave trigger is very steady, the Chirp is not as stable but still acceptable, both at 800uvpp.
Added another using the AWG SNR function, which is a sine wave with a PN noise pattern. The frequency was reduced to 1KHz because the "noise" is not random but periodic and at 1MHz this could easily be seen when averaging.
I think this is impressive for a DSO at this modest cost point :-+
Best,
For this kind of chirp we can also try use, instead of rising edge and level threshold, example slope trigger (depending if signal is so that there is one detectable individual slope, as here example first rising slope) or just individual time interval inside one chirp what exist only once in one chirp.
Yes there is some learning curve before can reach level when can easy select and setup best trigger mode and parameters for different situations. We must learn out from "rising edge and level + holdoff time" thinking. I know, I have born analog scope in hand at 50's and it was nearly only way, if can not ext trig.
One example, still many of peoples may use edge- threshold + holdoff time when they trig for AM modulated signal. Because they are not familiar with lot of better methods. Yes it works whit quite narrow changes in modulating frequency but... in practice mostly signal are more complex that just simple fixed freg AM from signal generator. Same for this kind of signal in images.
As can see now there is visible some extra trig from other position in chirp. Just find unique detail inside one chirp and set trig trig to just it it. It can be example unique slope inside whole repetitive signal, like example in one chirp. In this example first falling slope. Or if think interval trig, last rising edge in end of chirp to first rising edge in start of chirp happen only once in period.
Adjusting these may first feel some frustrating but after short learning time ... and so on. Modern scopes can do lot of...
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Agree, looking for a unique waveform attribute then attempting to trigger is the best approach for complex waveform triggering.
The very old Tektronix analog scopes had some the best triggering circuits available then, they were almost "magical" in their triggering ability. They used some very clever circuits which employed ECL gates as very fast analog limiters/comparitors.
Another way to trigger on complex waveforms like these low level noise corrupted "Chirp" waveforms is to employ the Zone Triggering feature. Takes a few minutes to setup and the touch screen implementation isn't very easy, but this does work well. Here's a couple examples using the Zone Triggering, note the waveform levels, impressive ability to reliability trigger IMO.
Best,
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Agree, looking for a unique waveform attribute then attempting to trigger is the best approach for complex waveform triggering.
The very old Tektronix analog scopes had some the best triggering circuits available then, they were almost "magical" in their triggering ability. They used some very clever circuits which employed ECL gates as very fast analog limiters/comparitors.
Another way to trigger on complex waveforms like these low level noise corrupted "Chirp" waveforms is to employ the Zone Triggering feature. Takes a few minutes to setup and the touch screen implementation isn't very easy, but this does work well. Here's a couple examples using the Zone Triggering, note the waveform levels, impressive ability to reliability trigger IMO.
Best,
Just for fun - would you mind running a couple of noise floor tests with the following settings?
DC Coupling
50 Ohm
10-bit
20MHz Bandwidth Limited
One without trace average
One with 50 trace averages
Attached please see results from my LeCroy 12-bit HDO for reference: without average: 56µV, with averages: 6.2µV
Thanks!
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Just for fun - would you mind running a couple of noise floor tests with the following settings?
DC Coupling
50 Ohm
10-bit
20MHz Bandwidth Limited
One without trace average
One with 50 trace averages
Attached please see results from my LeCroy 12-bit HDO for reference: without average: 56µV, with averages: 6.2µV
Thanks!
I did a couple plots. One has the vertical scale at 1mv/div and shows the 64 average (it's 64 since the Avg Function only scales by powers of 2).
Next is with vertical scale 500uv/div, then using the Avg Function and Eres Function (3.0), with both scaled by 50X to 10uv/div.
As you can see the noise floor is very low in the 1mv/div & 500uv/div, and with the amplified vertical scales at 10uv/div.
Best,
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Hi,
Source for measuring could be also the function channels.
Did you use the formula editor for the 50 times averaging of eres (C1) ?
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Just for fun - would you mind running a couple of noise floor tests with the following settings?
DC Coupling
50 Ohm
10-bit
20MHz Bandwidth Limited
One without trace average
One with 50 trace averages
Attached please see results from my LeCroy 12-bit HDO for reference: without average: 56µV, with averages: 6.2µV
Thanks!
I did a couple plots. One has the vertical scale at 1mv/div and shows the 64 average (it's 64 since the Avg Function only scales by powers of 2).
Next is with vertical scale 500uv/div, then using the Avg Function and Eres Function (3.0), with both scaled by 50X to 10uv/div.
As you can see the noise floor is very low in the 1mv/div & 500uv/div, and with the amplified vertical scales at 10uv/div.
Best,
Mawyat,
I would suggest to use Stdev measurement instead RMS. RMS is AC+DC measurement and will include channel offset.
STDEV is AC RMS without DC component.
Regards,
Sinisa
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Just for fun - would you mind running a couple of noise floor tests with the following settings?
DC Coupling
50 Ohm
10-bit
20MHz Bandwidth Limited
One without trace average
One with 50 trace averages
Attached please see results from my LeCroy 12-bit HDO for reference: without average: 56µV, with averages: 6.2µV
Thanks!
I did a couple plots. One has the vertical scale at 1mv/div and shows the 64 average (it's 64 since the Avg Function only scales by powers of 2).
Next is with vertical scale 500uv/div, then using the Avg Function and Eres Function (3.0), with both scaled by 50X to 10uv/div.
As you can see the noise floor is very low in the 1mv/div & 500uv/div, and with the amplified vertical scales at 10uv/div.
Best,
Thank you - it does look quiet. It does appear that your plots are in AC Coupling so here's one on the LeCroy HDO with AC Coupling, same filters, for a comparison. Also, to 2N3055's point, StDev may be a good measurement. It was a little confusing to me at first that Siglent called their AC RMS without DC "StDev" because "StDev" is also the variation across samples in cumulative measurements, and in Keysights, what Siglent refers to as "StDev" is known as "AC RMS", which is without the DC component.
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The fact, that the sds2k+ will compare seriously to a true 12 bit lecroy...And doesn´t suck....Wow, just wow.
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The fact, that the sds2k+ will compare seriously to a true 12 bit lecroy...And doesn´t suck....Wow, just wow.
13 bit mode. ;)
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Thank you - it does look quiet. It does appear that your plots are in AC Coupling so here's one on the LeCroy HDO with AC Coupling, same filters, for a comparison. Also, to 2N3055's point, StDev may be a good measurement. It was a little confusing to me at first that Siglent called their AC RMS without DC "StDev" because "StDev" is also the variation across samples in cumulative measurements, and in Keysights, what Siglent refers to as "StDev" is known as "AC RMS", which is without the DC component.
AC RMS is Stdev ... ^-^
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Hi,
Source for measuring could be also the function channels.
Did you use the formula editor for the 50 times averaging of eres (C1) ?
Yes.
Best,
-
AC RMS is Stdev ... ^-^
Please see attached red-circled measurements from my KS - the "RMS without DC" is called "AC RMS" and "Std Dev" is a statistical standard deviation of measurement values. This "RMS without DC" measurement on a Siglent (and some others) are called "Stdev". Threw me for a loop a few times until I got it straight.
-
The fact, that the sds2k+ will compare seriously to a true 12 bit lecroy...And doesn´t suck....Wow, just wow.
Agree, impressive DSO :)
This DSO has exceeded my expectations in every way, including the build quality (had an "incident" that caused me to completely disassemble the entire scope) :o
Want to thank Tautech for "steering" me in the right direction :-+
Now I just need to get couple more channels (I wanted the SDA2104X Plus, but they were backordered (still are I believe), so got the 2 channel version that was in stock).
Best,
-
The fact, that the sds2k+ will compare seriously to a true 12 bit lecroy...And doesn´t suck....Wow, just wow.
Agree, impressive DSO :)
This DSO has exceeded my expectations in every way, including the build quality (had an "incident" that caused me to completely disassemble the entire scope) :o
Want to thank Tautech for "steering" me in the right direction :-+
Now I just need to get couple more channels (I wanted the SDA2104X Plus, but they were backordered (still are I believe), so got the 2 channel version that was in stock).
Best,
Importing is the best way to get one, i got mine from https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2104X-plus.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2104X-plus.html)
If you ask they will give you a discount if you mention the forum sent you.. also it gets coded to a tariff code that does not get taxed, least mine didnt
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Mawyat,
I would suggest to use Stdev measurement instead RMS. RMS is AC+DC measurement and will include channel offset.
STDEV is AC RMS without DC component.
Regards,
Sinisa
Here's a plot with the STDEV for Input C1, C2 and the average(C1) multiplied by 10. C1 is the input with a 10X probe, C2 is the direct input with no attenuation @ 50 ohms (set to 1mv peak to peak at generator), F1 is the average of C1 times 10. So F1 is the attenuated (10X) input multiplied by 10, thus the same as C2 with direct input except with the additional C1 noise due to the 10X gain.
The reason C1 is showing such a high peak to peak reading is there is some narrow high amplitude "glitches" likely from other electronics or my computer nearby causing this to be high. With a 1mv peak to peak (354uv rms) on C2 and C1 with 10X probe should be ~ 100uvpp (35uv rms), note that F1 (10 times average C1) is showing better results due to the filtering effect on the random "glitches". I've also added a couple more plots showing F2 as 10*average(eres(C1)) with eres at 3.0, and included the statistics for F2.
Best,
-
AC RMS is Stdev ... ^-^
Please see attached red-circled measurements from my KS - the "RMS without DC" is called "AC RMS" and "Std Dev" is a statistical standard deviation of measurement values. This "RMS without DC" measurement on a Siglent (and some others) are called "Stdev". Threw me for a loop a few times until I got it straight.
I know it can be confusing, and Keysight chose to call it with same terminology as in multimeter world, probably to avoid confusion too..
But Stdev IS AC RMS when you apply it to signal. When you apply it to a number of measurements you want to look at statistically, then you are looking at statistical measure.
Stdev is simply a formula that calculates mean of incoming data series (that would be DC component in a signal), subtracts that from data (to make AC only, only variable part of signal) and then calculates Root Mean Square only of that variable data (AC component) of that data, hence AC RMS...
So mathematically it is correct, but can be a bit confusing for those expecting engineering terminology instead of math terminology...
Regards,
Sinisa
-
AC RMS is Stdev ... ^-^
Please see attached red-circled measurements from my KS - the "RMS without DC" is called "AC RMS" and "Std Dev" is a statistical standard deviation of measurement values. This "RMS without DC" measurement on a Siglent (and some others) are called "Stdev". Threw me for a loop a few times until I got it straight.
I know it can be confusing, and Keysight chose to call it with same terminology as in multimeter world, probably to avoid confusion too..
But Stdev IS AC RMS when you apply it to signal. When you apply it to a number of measurements you want to look at statistically, then you are looking at statistical measure.
Stdev is simply a formula that calculates mean of incoming data series (that would be DC component in a signal), subtracts that from data (to make AC only, only variable part of signal) and then calculates Root Mean Square only of that variable data (AC component) of that data, hence AC RMS...
So mathematically it is correct, but can be a bit confusing for those expecting engineering terminology instead of math terminology...
Regards,
Sinisa
It need perhaps also note that example many multimeters really can not do Stdev for get "AC RMS". They just can not because there is not sampled true data for this. So there is other methods for do this estimate.
Now with oscilloscopes it is bit more possible but... then we need ask: Stdev math from what data.
Siglent calculate Stdev from all samples in acquisition memory, user know amount and samples interval and can also estimate how accurate true AC RMS (and true total RMS) it can calculate including possible higher frequency components in signal under test. So we know data used for Stdev math and can estimate its limits also for possible higher freq components in signal under test.
Keysight some models are bit more tricky and perhaps it is best they name it as in multimeters AC RMS.
Who knows what data Keysight exactly use for estimate this AC RMS in models what use tiny intermediate buffer for measurements. How much signal is decimated. How it compute AC RMS. Where is definition how it is done.
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AC RMS is Stdev ... ^-^
Please see attached red-circled measurements from my KS - the "RMS without DC" is called "AC RMS" and "Std Dev" is a statistical standard deviation of measurement values. This "RMS without DC" measurement on a Siglent (and some others) are called "Stdev". Threw me for a loop a few times until I got it straight.
Never thought about the AC RMS (DMM) and Std Dev relationship, thanks for pointing that out 2N3055.
In the KS 34465A (TrueVolt) the RMS value is achieved in a different manner than with the older 34401A which used a "Analog RMS (AD636) circuit". Think this is a sampled data type RMS computation, rather than an Analog type RMS computation.
Best,
-
Promotion running:
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-42.html
Condition:
The SDS2000X Plus series oscilloscopes must be purchased from an authorized SIGLENT distributor.
We are happy to announce that we are decreasing the price of two SDS2000X Plus models (SDS2204X Plus and SDS2354X Plus models only) starting on October 1st, 2020.
For a limited time, all new SDS2000X Plus purchases include a free option bundle, including 4 high performance serial decoding protocol options, function generator control, and the new power analysis functions.
Easily save up to $1764 with a new SDS2000X Plus Oscilloscope and Option Bundle now!
SDS2000XP-IIS: Decode I2S digital audio signals
SDS2000XP -FlexRay: Analyze Serial Flexray encoded signals
SDS2000XP -1553B: Decode Mil-1553B serial communications
SDS2000XP -CANFD: Analyze CANFD serial signals
SDS2000XP -PA: Power Analysis activation license (Requires external DF2001A deskew fixture)
SDS2000XP -FG: Built-in 50 MHz arbitrary/function waveform generator
-
Is the LCD backlight LED or CCFL?
-
AC RMS is Stdev ... ^-^
Please see attached red-circled measurements from my KS - the "RMS without DC" is called "AC RMS" and "Std Dev" is a statistical standard deviation of measurement values. This "RMS without DC" measurement on a Siglent (and some others) are called "Stdev". Threw me for a loop a few times until I got it straight.
Never thought about the AC RMS (DMM) and Std Dev relationship, thanks for pointing that out 2N3055.
In the KS 34465A (TrueVolt) the RMS value is achieved in a different manner than with the older 34401A which used a "Analog RMS (AD636) circuit". Think this is a sampled data type RMS computation, rather than an Analog type RMS computation.
Best,
This got my curiosity going after I did a partial calibration of an HP34401A and a Agilent 34401A using some of the custom developed Reference Circuits & PCBs. These circuits are based upon a couple of Precision Buried Zeners (LM399 & LTZ1000) and a Analog Devices IC reference, and one circuit uses a CMOS precision chopper circuit to produce a very accurate AC waveform derived from a precision voltage reference and a crystal oscillator at 4.096MHz divided down with a precise 50% duty cycle (guaranteed by design). A new Keysight 34465A was used as the standard measurement, and the HP and Agilent 34401A also used.
First off DC measurements of the SDS2102X Plus input using statistics of C1
Input KS34465A of 5.00021VDC, DSO reads Mean C1 5.000398VDC (mean of mean)
Input of 10.00001VDC, DSO reads 10.0031VDC
Input of 7.04184VDC, DSO reads 7.04192VDC
Input of 0.99985VDC, DSO reads 999.39mvDC
Input of 100.0073mvDC, DSO reads 99.825mvDC
Now AC measurement with 50% duty cycle square wave of 5.00021V peak value, so Mean & StdDev (RMS) should be 5.00021/2 or 2.500011V
Input at 250Hz KS34465A 2.49993VAC, DSO reads 2.4916VDC (mean) and 2.5085VAC (stddev)
500Hz 2.49993VAC, DSO reads 2.4912VDC & 2.5094VAC
1KHz 2.49886VAC, DSO reads 2.4910VDC & 2.5095VAC
4KHz 2.49452VAC, DSO reads 2.4913VDC & 2.5092VAC
8KHz 2.48868VAC, DSO reads 2.4921VDC & 2.5085VAC
Note: The peak to peak readings of ~6Vpp include waveform ringing.
This is better performance than I would expect from this DSO :-+
Don't know if I got lucky or this is typical performance from the SDS2102X Plus, maybe others could make some measurements ::)
Edit: In the 2 last PCB images the LTZ1000 Buried Zener Reference isn't installed (LM399 is), I forgot to order the proper Op-Amp that works with this reference :o
Best,
-
Here's the setup, note the HP34401A (vertical), Agilent 34401A and Keysight 34465A readings on AC, then on DC, and how they agree with the SDS2102X Plus. Note the long twisted wires are solid copper and help with thermal EMF, as do the gold plated banana connectors. Gold plated copper has a low thermal EMF and good corrosion & electrical resistance.
Best,
-
Is the LCD backlight LED or CCFL?
I strongly believe, it´s LED.
In the menu, you can dim the backlight.
-
Promotion running:
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-42.html
Condition:
The SDS2000X Plus series oscilloscopes must be purchased from an authorized SIGLENT distributor.
We are happy to announce that we are decreasing the price of two SDS2000X Plus models (SDS2204X Plus and SDS2354X Plus models only) starting on October 1st, 2020.
For a limited time, all new SDS2000X Plus purchases include a free option bundle, including 4 high performance serial decoding protocol options, function generator control, and the new power analysis functions.
Easily save up to $1764 with a new SDS2000X Plus Oscilloscope and Option Bundle now!
SDS2000XP-IIS: Decode I2S digital audio signals
SDS2000XP -FlexRay: Analyze Serial Flexray encoded signals
SDS2000XP -1553B: Decode Mil-1553B serial communications
SDS2000XP -CANFD: Analyze CANFD serial signals
SDS2000XP -PA: Power Analysis activation license (Requires external DF2001A deskew fixture)
SDS2000XP -FG: Built-in 50 MHz arbitrary/function waveform generator
:blah:
WOW :--
Why not lowering the price of the SDS2104X Plus, and provide the keygen for free, THAT would be a real deal......
Oh Wait I see the keygen is already for free :)
-
Why not lowering the price of the SDS2104X Plus
For what you´re getting for, the price is more than ok... ;)
-
Promotion running:
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-42.html
Condition:
The SDS2000X Plus series oscilloscopes must be purchased from an authorized SIGLENT distributor.
We are happy to announce that we are decreasing the price of two SDS2000X Plus models (SDS2204X Plus and SDS2354X Plus models only) starting on October 1st, 2020.
For a limited time, all new SDS2000X Plus purchases include a free option bundle, including 4 high performance serial decoding protocol options, function generator control, and the new power analysis functions.
Easily save up to $1764 with a new SDS2000X Plus Oscilloscope and Option Bundle now!
SDS2000XP-IIS: Decode I2S digital audio signals
SDS2000XP -FlexRay: Analyze Serial Flexray encoded signals
SDS2000XP -1553B: Decode Mil-1553B serial communications
SDS2000XP -CANFD: Analyze CANFD serial signals
SDS2000XP -PA: Power Analysis activation license (Requires external DF2001A deskew fixture)
SDS2000XP -FG: Built-in 50 MHz arbitrary/function waveform generator
:blah:
WOW :--
Why not lowering the price of the SDS2104X Plus, and provide the keygen for free, THAT would be a real deal......
Oh Wait I see the keygen is already for free :)
C'mon, don't be an ass.. No need for sarcasm..
There are people that want or have to buy scope with all legal options.. It IS a good news for them..
You can still buy cheapest one and do the "liberation" if you don't mind/care for moral/legal part.
-
Promotion running:
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-42.html
Condition:
The SDS2000X Plus series oscilloscopes must be purchased from an authorized SIGLENT distributor.
We are happy to announce that we are decreasing the price of two SDS2000X Plus models (SDS2204X Plus and SDS2354X Plus models only) starting on October 1st, 2020.
For a limited time, all new SDS2000X Plus purchases include a free option bundle, including 4 high performance serial decoding protocol options, function generator control, and the new power analysis functions.
Easily save up to $1764 with a new SDS2000X Plus Oscilloscope and Option Bundle now!
SDS2000XP-IIS: Decode I2S digital audio signals
SDS2000XP -FlexRay: Analyze Serial Flexray encoded signals
SDS2000XP -1553B: Decode Mil-1553B serial communications
SDS2000XP -CANFD: Analyze CANFD serial signals
SDS2000XP -PA: Power Analysis activation license (Requires external DF2001A deskew fixture)
SDS2000XP -FG: Built-in 50 MHz arbitrary/function waveform generator
:blah:
WOW :--
Why not lowering the price of the SDS2104X Plus, and provide the keygen for free, THAT would be a real deal......
Oh Wait I see the keygen is already for free :)
C'mon, don't be an ass.. No need for sarcasm..
There are people that want or have to buy scope with all legal options.. It IS a good news for them..
You can still buy cheapest one and do the "liberation" if you don't mind/care for moral/legal part.
:blah: :blah: :blah:
-
:blah: :blah: :blah:
:-+ |O :-DD :palm:
-
There are people that want or have to buy scope with all legal options.. It IS a good news for them.. ;)
You can still buy cheapest one and do the "liberation" if you don't mind/care for moral/legal part.
Or warranty.. ;)
Apart from this, companies MUST do it in a legal way, such for free bundles are very welcome then. 8)
-
Im pretty sure Elasia has a 2104X Plus !
-
I was able to test my new 2104X Plus a bit more.
But I can't display cursors during an automatic measurement (like rise time for example).
Is there a way to display them ?
Thank you :)
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Im pretty sure Elasia has a 2104X Plus !
Correct, wasnt me, I have the 2104
Only thing i've mentioned is the codes for the 70 versions were in the codebase and keyed, but i thought someone in china did have one but long forgot who
-
Promotion running:
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-42.html
Condition:
The SDS2000X Plus series oscilloscopes must be purchased from an authorized SIGLENT distributor.
We are happy to announce that we are decreasing the price of two SDS2000X Plus models (SDS2204X Plus and SDS2354X Plus models only) starting on October 1st, 2020.
For a limited time, all new SDS2000X Plus purchases include a free option bundle, including 4 high performance serial decoding protocol options, function generator control, and the new power analysis functions.
Easily save up to $1764 with a new SDS2000X Plus Oscilloscope and Option Bundle now!
SDS2000XP-IIS: Decode I2S digital audio signals
SDS2000XP -FlexRay: Analyze Serial Flexray encoded signals
SDS2000XP -1553B: Decode Mil-1553B serial communications
SDS2000XP -CANFD: Analyze CANFD serial signals
SDS2000XP -PA: Power Analysis activation license (Requires external DF2001A deskew fixture)
SDS2000XP -FG: Built-in 50 MHz arbitrary/function waveform generator
Tau can you explain this promo... the "savings" $1764 - $200 off a scope leaves 1564 dollars for options? Thats ALL options to get that amount??
Thats a hell of a deal if its fully unlocked out of the box
Forgot to add the NA link with more details
https://siglentna.com/news-article/save-up-to-1764-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/ (https://siglentna.com/news-article/save-up-to-1764-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/)
-
Tau can you explain this promo...
No, not fully.
Factory on holiday for a week and just spotted it as they left for their break so didn't get the full rundown on it before they left. However it's not for the full package of options only a selected few and just for the 200 and 350 MHz models.
-
The logic analyzer option is missing in this package, but only this one, nothing more.
and just for the 200 and 350 MHz models.
Makes sense from the sight auf siglent´s view.
While everyone would buy the 100Mhz version, the 200 and 350Mhz are only interesting for the "pros", therefore it´s an offer for them.
The others getting it for free at every time. ;)
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Tau can you explain this promo...
No, not fully.
Factory on holiday for a week and just spotted it as they left for their break so didn't get the full rundown on it before they left. However it's not for the full package of options only a selected few and just for the 200 and 350 MHz models.
I am not sure, promotion says for ANY SDS2000X plus and it is for all the options except for MSO
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Tau can you explain this promo...
No, not fully.
Factory on holiday for a week and just spotted it as they left for their break so didn't get the full rundown on it before they left. However it's not for the full package of options only a selected few and just for the 200 and 350 MHz models.
Yeah go go national holiday.. my board house bailed on me right after getting parts on order for assembly lol
So yeah.. then those 6 listed options promo for all plus units and then knocking 200 bucks off the 200/350 models
I'll be picking up one of these at work and throwing on the LA
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How would you feel if you purchased this scope a couple of weeks back with options, and discover it is now $1000.. $1500 cheaper ?
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How would you feel if you purchased this scope a couple of weeks back with options, and discover it is now $1000.. $1500 cheaper ?
Same as everybody else who buys anything four days before it goes on sale....
What do you think how people felt if they bought 500MHz version of R&S RTM3000 for 12000€ a week before it went on sale for 8500€ for fully unlocked 1 GHz version..
Life sucks, buy a helmet...
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They are not stupid, they have flexibility.
It is the story of my life to buy something some days before a worldwide promotion :palm:
But with a nice little email, I always managed to get the promotion :)
If you bought it 1 year ago it's not the same story of course.
-
How would you feel if you purchased this scope a couple of weeks back with options, and discover it is now $1000.. $1500 cheaper ?
Same as everybody else who buys anything four days before it goes on sale....
What do you think how people felt if they bought 500MHz version of R&S RTM3000 for 12000€ a week before it went on sale for 8500€ for fully unlocked 1 GHz version..
Life sucks, buy a helmet...
I know a big French company that bought 2 fully loaded RTM3000 at the full price DURING the promotion :-DD
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How would you feel if you purchased this scope a couple of weeks back with options, and discover it is now $1000.. $1500 cheaper ?
Same as everybody else who buys anything four days before it goes on sale....
What do you think how people felt if they bought 500MHz version of R&S RTM3000 for 12000€ a week before it went on sale for 8500€ for fully unlocked 1 GHz version..
Life sucks, buy a helmet...
I know a big French company that bought 2 fully loaded RTM3000 at the full price DURING the promotion :-DD
:palm: |O
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But with a nice little email, I always managed to get the promotion
It´s always better to talk to the sales manager in case of special offers, apart from any promo thing...
The WS3024 from lecroy we bought by R+S, plus decoding options for appx 1000 bucks additional.
As "our" salesmanager from lecroy heard about it, he told us we are stupid, why we didn´t ask him, he would gave us the options for free.. :(
A year later, we wanted to have at least two "big" scopes from lecroy and remembering his words.
So we got an HDO6034A with decoding and power analyzis options and an Waverunner 9054 with the same options for totally 42% off... 8)
Wish I had a sales manger when I bought my SDS2104X+.... ;)
Or for the 5000.... :-X :D
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How would you feel if you purchased this scope a couple of weeks back with options, and discover it is now $1000.. $1500 cheaper ?
Ask my sales rep for the discount :) Or make them do a hardware swap ;)
-
Typically when that situation arises I ask if they're just going to refund me the difference or if I need to return and buy another.
-
But with a nice little email, I always managed to get the promotion
It´s always better to talk to the sales manager in case of special offers, apart from any promo thing...
The WS3024 from lecroy we bought by R+S, plus decoding options for appx 1000 bucks additional.
As "our" salesmanager from lecroy heard about it, he told us we are stupid, why we didn´t ask him, he would gave us the options for free.. :(
A year later, we wanted to have at least two "big" scopes from lecroy and remembering his words.
So we got an HDO6034A with decoding and power analyzis options and an Waverunner 9054 with the same options for totally 42% off... 8)
Wish I had a sales manger when I bought my SDS2104X+.... ;)
Or for the 5000.... :-X :D
Well, negotiations are much easier when you have a long sales record with your distributor ;)
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So batronix should give me one by the next buy... 8)
-
Hello,
what is your experience with Power Analysis with an oscilloscope? Since Siglent has prepared this promotion, I am thinking of purchasing a Power analysis deskew fixture DF2001A. I have current probe. I would like to measure both low power equipment in stand by mode and my own build DC / DC buck- boost power supplies up to 24V / 10 A.
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Hello,
what is your experience with Power Analysis with an oscilloscope? Since Siglent has prepared this promotion, I am thinking of purchasing a Power analysis deskew fixture DF2001A. I have current probe. I would like to measure both low power equipment in stand by mode and my own build DC / DC buck- boost power supplies up to 24V / 10 A.
Quick look at PA here but there have been FW updates since and another expected soon:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2962950/#msg2962950 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2962950/#msg2962950)
Using the deskew fixture allows for auto deskew which is a nice feature.
Deskew fixture discussion starts here when Martin gets one:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3125678/#msg3125678 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3125678/#msg3125678)
A little while later mine arrives:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3137612/#msg3137612 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3137612/#msg3137612)
Then later I do some mods to it:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3151112/#msg3151112 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3151112/#msg3151112)
About 10 pages of this thread covers the deskew fixture.
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Thanks!
-
Did someone recently get a SDS2104XP and try to mod it to 500MHz ? Did it work ? Wondering if they still have two HW revisions or not
-
Wondering if they still have two HW revisions or not
They never had.
-
Wondering if they still have two HW revisions or not
They never had.
So the 100MHz can be upgraded to 500 ? For some reason I thought only the 350MHz could be upgraded to 500
Thanks
-
Wondering if they still have two HW revisions or not
They never had.
So the 100MHz can be upgraded to 500 ? For some reason I thought only the 350MHz could be upgraded to 500
Thanks
IME, yes, but keep in mind that you should make sure it’s sampling at 2GSa/s to avoid significant high frequency aliasing artefacts. You’re limited to two channels to achieve 2GSa/s in the four channel unit.
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Did someone recently get a SDS2104XP and try to mod it to 500MHz ? Did it work ? Wondering if they still have two HW revisions or not
I have a fresh unit (received: october 20th), I did mode it to 500 MHz, but it worked in steps from 200, 350 to 500 MHz.
-
IME, yes, but keep in mind that you should make sure it’s sampling at 2GSa/s to avoid significant high frequency aliasing artefacts. You’re limited to two channels to achieve 2GSa/s in the four channel unit.
Which was already explained in the manual...
I did mode it to 500 MHz, but it worked in steps from 200, 350 to 500 MHz.
Hm ?
-
he certainly did not do it via SCPI, if you enter the keys via the menu, you have to enter the key from 100 -> 200Mhz, 200->350Mhz and 350-> 500Mhz
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I did the upgrade hack via the licence key route. Going from a 2104 to a 2504 means you get to experience three times as much of the thrill of a BW upgrade as you do using the SCPI command method. :)
John
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IME, yes, but keep in mind that you should make sure it’s sampling at 2GSa/s to avoid significant high frequency aliasing artefacts. You’re limited to two channels to achieve 2GSa/s in the four channel unit.
Which was already explained in the manual...
I did mode it to 500 MHz, but it worked in steps from 200, 350 to 500 MHz.
Hm ?
What I meant was that the unlock code for 500 MHz BW didn't work from the begining, I had to enter the code for 200 MHz BW, then for 350 MHz BW and, in the end, the code for 500 MHz BW.
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IME, yes, but keep in mind that you should make sure it’s sampling at 2GSa/s to avoid significant high frequency aliasing artefacts. You’re limited to two channels to achieve 2GSa/s in the four channel unit.
Which was already explained in the manual...
I did mode it to 500 MHz, but it worked in steps from 200, 350 to 500 MHz.
Hm ?
What I meant was that the unlock code for 500 MHz BW didn't work from the begining, I had to enter the code for 200 MHz BW, then for 350 MHz BW and, in the end, the code for 500 MHz BW.
Yes normal.
The upgrade path to 500 MHz is only from 350 MHz.
Study the website BW options and this is very clear:
https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/bandwidth-upgrade-350-to-500-mhz-4-channel-models/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/accessory/bandwidth-upgrade-350-to-500-mhz-4-channel-models/)
100 and 200 MHz to 500 MHz BW upgrade paths do not exist within the Option UI however AFAIK you can go straight to 500 MHz using SCPI commands.
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Again, Lecroy took the best of siglent in it´s portfolio:
http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/t3dso2000a-datasheet.pdf (http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/t3dso2000a-datasheet.pdf)
The difference between appx 1400€ and 3100€ is a sticker:
https://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/teledyne-lecroy/T3DSO2104A/1133-T3DSO2104A-ND/12756289 (https://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/teledyne-lecroy/T3DSO2104A/1133-T3DSO2104A-ND/12756289)
:-DD ::)
Edit: It seems, that all options are included in this price..
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Edit: It seems, that all options are included in this price..
All options but MSO are currently included from Siglent.
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Ah,
But in general I find it somekind of "funny", lecroy don´t disguise it that much where it originally came from - Just a sticker..
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It's normally on build in generator sqare wave? 10MHz ... :-DD
(http://[attachimg=1])
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With the probe set to 1X, yes ...
But even with proper probing, it's not going to be much better.
-
Yep it's not a 10k USD TEK :-\
-
Again, Lecroy took the best of siglent in it´s portfolio:
http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/t3dso2000a-datasheet.pdf (http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/t3dso2000a-datasheet.pdf)
The difference between appx 1400€ and 3100€ is a sticker:
https://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/teledyne-lecroy/T3DSO2104A/1133-T3DSO2104A-ND/12756289 (https://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/teledyne-lecroy/T3DSO2104A/1133-T3DSO2104A-ND/12756289)
:-DD ::)
Edit: It seems, that all options are included in this price..
Nicely done :palm:
[attachimg=1]
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Again, Lecroy took the best of siglent in it´s portfolio:
http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/t3dso2000a-datasheet.pdf (http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/t3dso2000a-datasheet.pdf)
The difference between appx 1400€ and 3100€ is a sticker:
https://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/teledyne-lecroy/T3DSO2104A/1133-T3DSO2104A-ND/12756289 (https://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/teledyne-lecroy/T3DSO2104A/1133-T3DSO2104A-ND/12756289)
:-DD ::)
Edit: It seems, that all options are included in this price..
I wonder if LeCroy are doing the QA for Siglent? I’ve been surprised how relatively mature the firmware is.
-
I wonder if LeCroy are doing the QA for Siglent? I’ve been surprised how relatively mature the firmware is.
As the feature set and UI is already present in the SDS5000X which was released more than a year earlier we benefit from that. ;)
This is evident in the X-E range also where rollouts of improvements get applied to the whole range albeit that they have a different UI and feature set.
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Something different hah? I bought it a week before. :popcorn:
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Something different hah? I bought it a week before. :popcorn:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1103258)
Yep, a different FW version than any of us !
Current public version is V1.3.5R10
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Something different hah? I bought it a week before. :popcorn:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1103258)
Yep, a different FW version than any of us !
Current public version is V1.3.5R10
And the new Options and HW version :popcorn:
-
Something different hah? I bought it a week before. :popcorn:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1103258)
Yep, a different FW version than any of us !
Current public version is V1.3.5R10
And the new Options and HW version :popcorn:
Yep, the HW version is often changed with FW and the new decodes were also recently added to the SDS5000X. :)
-
Ohh..the next firmware seems to become a nice one.... ;D
-
Hi!
I want to ask experienced friends for help.
There is no doubt that SDS204X+ is pretty good instrument (after full upgrading, of course :)), but the P215 probs that comes with that are unacceptable. I found on Ebay a pair of LeCroy PP007-WR: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teledyne-LeCroy-PP007-WR-Passive-Probe-w-Operators-Manual-Lot-of-2-NEW/124036030495?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225074%26meid%3Dbc6c396de6874bcba8338ab7eb8e2d6c%26pid%3D100290%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D383785701582%26itm%3D124036030495%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2060778%26brand%3DLeCroy&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teledyne-LeCroy-PP007-WR-Passive-Probe-w-Operators-Manual-Lot-of-2-NEW/124036030495?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225074%26meid%3Dbc6c396de6874bcba8338ab7eb8e2d6c%26pid%3D100290%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D383785701582%26itm%3D124036030495%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2060778%26brand%3DLeCroy&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507)
Does anyone know how good are these probes? Do they fit my scope and are they worth the money? :-\
-
Hi,
There is no doubt that SDS204X+ is pretty good instrument (after full upgrading, of course :))
Even when it´s not fully upgraded.. ;)
Yeah, the probe thing is the only really worse in this case, never understandable...
I´m looking for lecroy probes too - At work, we got lecroy scopes only ( except the siglent/rigol ones in the R&D Lab) and so I´m used to work with their probes.
I think, with the PP007 you´ll won´t go wrong although there are rumours that some lecroy probe types causes an not adjustable mismatch (still little overshoots).
The seller in your link provide a 30days money back guarantee - Test them and use it if they couldn´t been matched "perfect"..
-
Thank you, Martin :)
Yes, a 30 days money back guarantee is very good option. But the need to pay customs fees and return shipping in case these probes don't fit, does not make me happy. Therefore, I am still undecided. :-\
-
Believe that.
And since I´ve "upgraded" mine to 500Mhz, I´m also looking for suitable probes on e.g. Ebay.
There are some cheap and new probes avaible, but chances are high they won´t fit it in general.
So I´m looking for probes from "real" brands too.
But won´t spend 400 or more bucks for 4pcs.
Therefore I got a look at used probes with "real names", like from tek or lecroy.
Caused to our bought of two new lecroys last year, we got four probes PP021 and four probes PP022.
I could take one of them at home and check, if I could match them perfectly on my SDS2504X+
-
Hi!
I want to ask experienced friends for help.
There is no doubt that SDS204X+ is pretty good instrument (after full upgrading, of course :)), but the P215 probs that comes with that are unacceptable. I found on Ebay a pair of LeCroy PP007-WR: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teledyne-LeCroy-PP007-WR-Passive-Probe-w-Operators-Manual-Lot-of-2-NEW/124036030495?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225074%26meid%3Dbc6c396de6874bcba8338ab7eb8e2d6c%26pid%3D100290%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D383785701582%26itm%3D124036030495%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2060778%26brand%3DLeCroy&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teledyne-LeCroy-PP007-WR-Passive-Probe-w-Operators-Manual-Lot-of-2-NEW/124036030495?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225074%26meid%3Dbc6c396de6874bcba8338ab7eb8e2d6c%26pid%3D100290%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D383785701582%26itm%3D124036030495%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2060778%26brand%3DLeCroy&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507)
Does anyone know how good are these probes? Do they fit my scope and are they worth the money? :-\
:o $225 for 2 probes ? :scared:
https://siglentna.com/product/sp2030a-auto-sense-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/ (https://siglentna.com/product/sp2030a-auto-sense-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/)
While these are not the probes that come with a SDS2354X Plus, 300 MHz rating, 10x, and auto sense for $59 seems a better deal to me. These were std probes for a SDS2304X.
-
$225 for 2 probes ?
Really cheap - Search for ONE probe PP021 or PP022... 8)
-
Believe that.
And since I´ve "upgraded" mine to 500Mhz, I´m also looking for suitable probes on e.g. Ebay.
There are some cheap and new probes avaible, but chances are high they won´t fit it in general.
So I´m looking for probes from "real" brands too.
But won´t spend 400 or more bucks for 4pcs.
Therefore I got a look at used probes with "real names", like from tek or lecroy.
Caused to our bought of two new lecroys last year, we got four probes PP021 and four probes PP022.
I could take one of them at home and check, if I could match them perfectly on my SDS2504X+
This would be a great solution :-+.
-
500 MHz and even the famous brand - LeCroy! :D
-
Famous...I don´t trust anyone on this today..
Current-Probes from lecroy, siglent, R&S, Rigol, Keysight are made from the same (Hioki, Pintek).
So the "normal" probes are surely not origin made from lecroy, they´re something else.. ;)
But hey, if they do what they should do according to their specs....
-
Hi!
I want to ask experienced friends for help.
There is no doubt that SDS204X+ is pretty good instrument (after full upgrading, of course :)), but the P215 probs that comes with that are unacceptable. I found on Ebay a pair of LeCroy PP007-WR: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teledyne-LeCroy-PP007-WR-Passive-Probe-w-Operators-Manual-Lot-of-2-NEW/124036030495?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225074%26meid%3Dbc6c396de6874bcba8338ab7eb8e2d6c%26pid%3D100290%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D383785701582%26itm%3D124036030495%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2060778%26brand%3DLeCroy&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teledyne-LeCroy-PP007-WR-Passive-Probe-w-Operators-Manual-Lot-of-2-NEW/124036030495?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225074%26meid%3Dbc6c396de6874bcba8338ab7eb8e2d6c%26pid%3D100290%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D383785701582%26itm%3D124036030495%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2060778%26brand%3DLeCroy&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507)
Does anyone know how good are these probes? Do they fit my scope and are they worth the money? :-\
:o $225 for 2 probes ? :scared:
https://siglentna.com/product/sp2030a-auto-sense-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/ (https://siglentna.com/product/sp2030a-auto-sense-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/)
While these are not the probes that come with a SDS2354X Plus, 300 MHz rating, 10x, and auto sense for $59 seems a better deal to me. These were std probes for a SDS2304X.
Unfortunately not $225, but with all custom charges it will costs me more than $300.
You right.
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I use probemasters, you wont get 500 in multi channel mode anyway.. that said i do have one 5900 as well for single channel
https://probemaster.com/design-your-own-4900-series-master-probe-kit/ (https://probemaster.com/design-your-own-4900-series-master-probe-kit/)
https://probemaster.com/5900-series-500-mhz-oscilloscope-probe-10x/ (https://probemaster.com/5900-series-500-mhz-oscilloscope-probe-10x/)
-
It seems a FFT bug here，why it has a spike on 500mhz？
-
Well that's certainly an interesting effect. Do you see it as well if you don't GND the input but leave it floating DC coupled? How does it respond to different vertical gains on the channel?
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It seems a FFT bug here，why it has a spike on 500mhz？
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1105640;image)
Not bug. Internal 500MHz leaks to signal image bit. With 2Gsa/s ADC there still is 500MHz clock signal. 1GHz clock dual edge give 2GSa/s but 1GHz clock is also divided by 2 for 4 data output bus from chip (there is 4x 500MHz bus out from ADC)
Yes it can think it is just one "spur". Take what ever spectrum analyzer and also there you can find big amount of many kind of "spurs".
Look this level. -101dBV !
If we have this level in 50 ohm system it is -88dBm.
It responds roughly 25.2uVpeak-peak, 8.9 uVrms. So in practice it is nearly nonsense. But also they are 10dB over base noise level... Imho, user need only know there is 500 and 1000MHz spurs and thats it. Not "bug" but hardware is not ideal... ideal hardwares exist only school books. Of course it is nicew if Siglent develop HW better and better but somewhere also can then hit nose to wall where read "stop here and open your pocket or turn back" and question... do it rise sales of this instrument.
But then, how they are if you rise V/div.
Do they follow when base noise level rise or do they disappear. Both cases are bit different story... I do not have this in hand so I can not test, only speculate.
-
Hi!
I want to ask experienced friends for help.
There is no doubt that SDS204X+ is pretty good instrument (after full upgrading, of course :)), but the P215 probs that comes with that are unacceptable. I found on Ebay a pair of LeCroy PP007-WR: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teledyne-LeCroy-PP007-WR-Passive-Probe-w-Operators-Manual-Lot-of-2-NEW/124036030495?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225074%26meid%3Dbc6c396de6874bcba8338ab7eb8e2d6c%26pid%3D100290%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D383785701582%26itm%3D124036030495%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2060778%26brand%3DLeCroy&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teledyne-LeCroy-PP007-WR-Passive-Probe-w-Operators-Manual-Lot-of-2-NEW/124036030495?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225074%26meid%3Dbc6c396de6874bcba8338ab7eb8e2d6c%26pid%3D100290%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D383785701582%26itm%3D124036030495%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2060778%26brand%3DLeCroy&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507)
Does anyone know how good are these probes? Do they fit my scope and are they worth the money? :-\
:o $225 for 2 probes ? :scared:
https://siglentna.com/product/sp2030a-auto-sense-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/ (https://siglentna.com/product/sp2030a-auto-sense-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/)
While these are not the probes that come with a SDS2354X Plus, 300 MHz rating, 10x, and auto sense for $59 seems a better deal to me. These were std probes for a SDS2304X.
Unfortunately not $225, but with all custom charges it will costs me more than $300.
You right.
I think I'm going for the R&S RT-ZP05 set. Two 500MHz probes 10:1 for around €250 new, with auto sensing and I can get them from basically every major distributor around here.
-
It seems a FFT bug here，why it has a spike on 500mhz？
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1105640;image)
Not bug. Internal 500MHz leaks to signal image bit. With 2Gsa/s ADC there still is 500MHz clock signal. 1GHz clock dual edge give 2GSa/s but 1GHz clock is also divided by 2 for 4 data output bus from chip (there is 4x 500MHz bus out from ADC)
Yes it can think it is just one "spur". Take what ever spectrum analyzer and also there you can find big amount of many kind of "spurs".
Look this level. -101dBV !
If we have this level in 50 ohm system it is -88dBm.
It responds roughly 25.2uVpeak-peak, 8.9 uVrms. So in practice it is nearly nonsense. But also they are 10dB over base noise level... Imho, user need only know there is 500 and 1000MHz spurs and thats it. Not "bug" but hardware is not ideal... ideal hardwares exist only school books. Of course it is nicew if Siglent develop HW better and better but somewhere also can then hit nose to wall where read "stop here and open your pocket or turn back" and question... do it rise sales of this instrument.
But then, how they are if you rise V/div.
Do they follow when base noise level rise or do they disappear. Both cases are bit different story... I do not have this in hand so I can not test, only speculate.
I see，actually it’s not a bug but a normal phenomenon that caused by clock leaking.
It's also the same situation in DC coupling. @thinkfat
-
Hi!
I want to ask experienced friends for help.
There is no doubt that SDS204X+ is pretty good instrument (after full upgrading, of course :)), but the P215 probs that comes with that are unacceptable. I found on Ebay a pair of LeCroy PP007-WR: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teledyne-LeCroy-PP007-WR-Passive-Probe-w-Operators-Manual-Lot-of-2-NEW/124036030495?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225074%26meid%3Dbc6c396de6874bcba8338ab7eb8e2d6c%26pid%3D100290%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D383785701582%26itm%3D124036030495%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2060778%26brand%3DLeCroy&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teledyne-LeCroy-PP007-WR-Passive-Probe-w-Operators-Manual-Lot-of-2-NEW/124036030495?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225074%26meid%3Dbc6c396de6874bcba8338ab7eb8e2d6c%26pid%3D100290%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D383785701582%26itm%3D124036030495%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2060778%26brand%3DLeCroy&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507)
Does anyone know how good are these probes? Do they fit my scope and are they worth the money? :-\
:o $225 for 2 probes ? :scared:
https://siglentna.com/product/sp2030a-auto-sense-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/ (https://siglentna.com/product/sp2030a-auto-sense-300-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/)
While these are not the probes that come with a SDS2354X Plus, 300 MHz rating, 10x, and auto sense for $59 seems a better deal to me. These were std probes for a SDS2304X.
Unfortunately not $225, but with all custom charges it will costs me more than $300.
You right.
I think I'm going for the R&S RT-ZP05 set. Two 500MHz probes 10:1 for around €250 new, with auto sensing and I can get them from basically every major distributor around here.
You do whatever you want.
But my experience is: standard 10x probes over 250MHz will all be pretty much the same..
Don't look at bandwidth, look at capacitance at tip. Circuit loading will define what you will see in real life.
You will literally have same waveform on the screen with that expensive probe that you would with decent inexpensive one. Don't buy cheapest crap, obviously, but don't buy the sales pitch.
If you really want better probe response, keep probes that you got with scope for general poking around and start saving for cheapest active probe.. That will make a difference.
Also, don't buy expensive passive probes that don't have replaceable tip ( those you chose I believe do have it )... You will damage tip, sooner or later, mechanically or electrically.
My 0.02 €..
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But my experience is: standard 10x probes over 250MHz will all be pretty much the same..
Don't look at bandwidth, look at capacitance at tip. Circuit loading will define what you will see in real life.
Yes.
Example 7pF with 300MHz equals roughly 75 ohm and with 500MHz roughly 45 ohm.
It need always remember that Lo-Z probe, piece of coaxial and resistor in many times far better than usual probe with high frequencies. Usually high freq circuits are low impedance circuits so this 1Mohm is nonsense due to tip capacitance.
Inside this article there is 1kohm probe... good to 1GHz and even up several GHz
it is not 1:10 but 1:21. It need connect to 50ohm input.
http://www.sigcon.com/Pubs/straight/probes.htm (http://www.sigcon.com/Pubs/straight/probes.htm)
well it first feel that 1kohm... blah... but this is for HF circuits.
We can think other way. Take some probe, example tip 7pF. What is frequency where its cap.impedance corresponds 1kohm. Roughly 22MHz. So with 22MHz or higher this 1kohm probe is loading RF circuit less and also it is more like resistive. Very usable and over 100MHz or exaple with 300MHz it beats normal probe hands down in many things. Is it difficult because it is 21x probe. Of course not. Just turn your scope probe factor to 21x or even more accurate just using some reference signal and probe factor fine adjust. And its price is... piece of RG174 and resistor and example small short pogo pins if want. "It must be poor because it is cheap"... forget this thinking. For what need fancy expensive 500MHz passive probe. For lower freq it is not at all needed, better use probe what is also low pass filter. For high frequencies cheap but ugly looking DIY Lo-Z may beat expensive probe hands down. And if bad happen... just laugh and make new. No need be sad when 100 Euro or 500 Euro was gone.
Of course these nice expensive probes are good for many things and in some cases better than diy LoZ. But is it wise first carefully think reality with probes and higher RF before open money book... buy roses to your wife and do 50 cent DIY Lo-Z or collect its material from recycling basket.
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You do whatever you want.
Yep. I found a new pair for 145€ plus shipping. Not a bad deal if they are genuine.
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Actually....you just need two 500Mhz probes :-DD
And...The new firmware 1.3.7R5 has been released！hh :-+
https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds2000x-plus (https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds2000x-plus)
Good news! You just need to add 'SENT','MANC' in bwopt to unlock the new options！
https://repl.it/@wxq849034624/PrettyAbleGuiltware-1
You can use Elasia's method downstairs(#2095) without registration :-+
(Thanks to previous version and every contributor！ https://repl.it/repls/PrettyAbleGuiltware#main.py (https://repl.it/repls/PrettyAbleGuiltware#main.py))
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New firmware released for SDS2000X Plus:
11/11/2020 1.3.7R5
https://siglentna.com/download/19262/
1. New serial protocols supported (optional):
a) SENT, trigger & decode
b) Manchester, decode only
2. Measurement enhancement:
a) Supported user-defined thresholds (Upper, Middle and Lower): Measure | Config | Threshold
b) Added items: +Area@AC, -Area@AC, Area@AC, AbsArea@AC
3. Math: added new operator – Interpolate
4. Display:
a) Supported selectable color for traces: Display | Color Setting
b) Supported floating menu so that the waveform is not compressed horizontally when the right-side menu is displayed: Display | Menu Style
c) Supported to show bandwidth information on the channel descriptor box
5. Save/Recall:
a) Added option “Save all channel” for csv file
b) Supported to save math traces (except FFT)
6. Bode Plot:
a) Optimized scan speed
b) Fixed unexpected glitch issue
7. Supported serial trigger as source of the frequency counter
8. Unlocked zoom in stop mode for Roll
9. Supported trigger Default or AutoSetup operations by pressing corresponding button twice
10. Fixed several bugs
a) Some vertical measurement error in roll mode
b) Missed peak marker in FFT two-tone test
c) AWG problem of importing the arb file from a U-disk
d) Whenever the screen is touched, the pass/fail statistics is reset to zero
e) SPI data value setting issue using virtual keypad
f) Compatibility issue between WebServer and latest Chrome/Edge browsers
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Wow, just wow... :-+
-
Looks more or less exactly like the list of changes for the last SDS5000X firmware.
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Actually....you just need two 500Mhz probes :-DD
Yes, that's what I figured.
And...The new firmware 1.3.7R5 has been released！hh :-+
https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds2000x-plus (https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds2000x-plus)
Good news! You just need to add 'SENT','MANC' in bwopt to unlock the new options！
https://repl.it/@wxq849034624/PrettyAbleGuiltware-1 (https://repl.it/@wxq849034624/PrettyAbleGuiltware-1)
Nice. They care about fixing bugs.
I'd have loved if they actually fixed the trace display with a proper interpolation filter instead of providing another display option for the menu :-/
I see the glitches in the Bode plot were addressed. That's encouraging!
What was the verdict about the SPI protocol decoding errors? It seems they didn't fix that (yet)?
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You do whatever you want.
Yep. I found a new pair for 145€ plus shipping. Not a bad deal if they are genuine.
And they arrived today, just a day after ordering them. They look legit.
Not too much stuff to go with them, but they have indeed replaceable tips and there's a spare included with each of the probes.
The tips are quite fine, spring-loaded needles, very sharp. They look a bit fragile, though.
Accessories: just the requisite stuff, color tags, hook, grounding lead, grounding spring, BNC adapter.
All in all, different league than the probes that came with the scope.
The scope detects them as 10x.
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Siglent's SDS6000Pro also shares basically the same code with SDS2000X+ (and SDS5000X) adding the 2GHz and 4GHz options.
-
https://repl.it/@wxq849034624/PrettyAbleGuiltware-1
It does't work :-//
-
https://repl.it/@wxq849034624/PrettyAbleGuiltware-1
It does't work :-//
Yeah, same result here. :(
I steamed straight in and hit the run key which produced a full list of license keys but the MANC and SENT keys were rejected as invalid. It didn't help that the order in the scope list and their appearance in the Python output were switched but even after trying the proper keys in both upper and lower case, it then dawned on me that perhaps I should have replaced the '0000000000000000' place markers in the scope-id field. It made not one jot of difference. The same license keys were produced regardless not only of how I entered the scope-id or even whether I deleted that line altogether! :wtf:
It's a little worrying that editing the scope-id makes no difference to its output. I've previously used an on-line python script to successfully generate license keys a couple of months back but I can't remember which hoops had to be jumped through so I think I'm simply doing something wrong (hopefully not giving my scope id away to a harvester).
John
-
The script looks legit though (if you replace the dummy scope ID with the real one). It's basically identical to the one I used to generate the SENT option for my SDS5000X and creates the same key. Regarding MANC, I can't tell as I can't enter the key due to the "last key" bug and the LCISL command doesn't seem to work.
-
Thanks! I'll give it another shot. I might even try using my ancient version of Opera in the winXP VM (at least that still renders the scope's web page ok - the update has fskd the later Opera version running in the Linux Mint host).
John
-
Actually....you just need two 500Mhz probes :-DD
Yes, that's what I figured.
And...The new firmware 1.3.7R5 has been released！hh :-+
https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds2000x-plus (https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds2000x-plus)
Good news! You just need to add 'SENT','MANC' in bwopt to unlock the new options！
https://repl.it/@wxq849034624/PrettyAbleGuiltware-1 (https://repl.it/@wxq849034624/PrettyAbleGuiltware-1)
Nice. They care about fixing bugs.
I'd have loved if they actually fixed the trace display with a proper interpolation filter instead of providing another display option for the menu :-/
I see the glitches in the Bode plot were addressed. That's encouraging!
What was the verdict about the SPI protocol decoding errors? It seems they didn't fix that (yet)?
The LeCroy's PP020 seems identical to Siglent's SP3050A and I'm going to try that. ;)
The Bode plot is much faster than before but still a little slower than other products.. :blah:
I haven't tried the SPI protocol decoding yet. So I have no idea about that bug... :palm:
-
https://repl.it/@wxq849034624/PrettyAbleGuiltware-1
It does't work :-//
https://repl.it/@wxq849034624/PrettyAbleGuiltware-1
It does't work :-//
Yeah, same result here. :(
I steamed straight in and hit the run key which produced a full list of license keys but the MANC and SENT keys were rejected as invalid. It didn't help that the order in the scope list and their appearance in the Python output were switched but even after trying the proper keys in both upper and lower case, it then dawned on me that perhaps I should have replaced the '0000000000000000' place markers in the scope-id field. It made not one jot of difference. The same license keys were produced regardless not only of how I entered the scope-id or even whether I deleted that line altogether! :wtf:
It's a little worrying that editing the scope-id makes no difference to its output. I've previously used an on-line python script to successfully generate license keys a couple of months back but I can't remember which hoops had to be jumped through so I think I'm simply doing something wrong (hopefully not giving my scope id away to a harvester).
John
I moded them from previous version. (Thanks to them!) And here is the original version (https://repl.it/repls/PrettyAbleGuiltware#main.py)
You can try to add 'SENT','MANC' in bwopt ,the scope id should be replaced with yours. (It's only 16 lowercase letters.)
But it did work on my scope. :phew:
-
I believe I found the problem with the linked script. It seems that that site no-longer allows you to change the python code and run it. For example, if you replace all of the code with "print('hello world')" you would think you'd get the string "hello world" when run, but you don't... at least I don't. It still runs the original code which means it's not using your scope ID. :palm:
If you take the code and run it in your own python interpreter it does actually work. I can confirm. :phew:
Also... that site seems to be giving me a crazy amount of verification images to click on just to make sure I'm human... way more then I've seen on any other site. :--
-
I believe I found the problem with the linked script. It seems that that site no-longer allows you to change the python code and run it. For example, if you replace all of the code with "print('hello world')" you would think you'd get the string "hello world" when run, but you don't... at least I don't. It still runs the original code which means it's not using your scope ID. :palm:
If you take the code and run it in your own python interpreter it does actually work. I can confirm. :phew:
Also... that site seems to be giving me a crazy amount of verification images to click on just to make sure I'm human... way more then I've seen on any other site. :--
You get the point！ :phew:
Using a funny Chinese meme here..'You have changed，bro' （Forgetting my poor English :palm:）
-
Wow... wild patch, fantastic new stuff
https://repl.it/@wxq849034624/PrettyAbleGuiltware-1 etc has been monetized. No more free use, you are forced to make a login and anything you make is forced public less you pay them a fee. You cant change anything unless you fork which makes you login... oh well.. site was great while it lasted
-
Also... that site seems to be giving me a crazy amount of verification images to click on just to make sure I'm human... way more then I've seen on any other site. :--
Are you... a human?
-
After registration (even with fake email address) the script works very well.
https://repl.it/@wxq849034624/PrettyAbleGuiltware-1
I verified it on my scope. :D
-
I believe I found the problem with the linked script. It seems that that site no-longer allows you to change the python code and run it. For example, if you replace all of the code with "print('hello world')" you would think you'd get the string "hello world" when run, but you don't... at least I don't. It still runs the original code which means it's not using your scope ID. :palm:
If you take the code and run it in your own python interpreter it does actually work. I can confirm. :phew:
Also... that site seems to be giving me a crazy amount of verification images to click on just to make sure I'm human... way more then I've seen on any other site. :--
Inspired by your post, I copied and pasted all of the text in that python script into a local file and tried to run it on my Linux Mint 17.1 system using Python 2.7.6 (default, Nov 13 2018, 12:45:42). Needless to say, since I've never ever tried running any python scripts before in my life, it failed with a bunch of error messages and the text file I'd tried to redirect the script's output to remained stubbornly empty.
I didn't bother trying to interpret the many error messages since it was 4:30am local and GMT! My one concern is regarding whether line one's reference to importing a hashlib library depends on a special lib file or one that's either normally included or readily available as a standard lib file. Going by your post, it would seem to be a standard lib file rather than a "special" created just for that script file.
Since you managed to get it to run on your system, perhaps you'd care to offer an "Idiot's Guide" for this and other idiots who are pythonically challenged? Pretty please??? :)
[EDIT] I've just spotted Elasia's rather neat work around to remotely running an edited version of that read only hack script. Since I already had such an edited version to hand (and an unused report.txt file) I simply copied and pasted the contents of my version over the hello world example and ditto the results back into my empty report.txt file. Job done! :)
You can still offer an "Idiot's Guide" if you like but there's no longer any pressing need to do so on my part. Still, such a guide could prove itself useful in the future to deal with similar scenarios that will more than likely arise as time goes by.
John
-
After registration (even with fake email address) the script works very well.
https://repl.it/@wxq849034624/PrettyAbleGuiltware-1
I verified it on my scope. :D
Did they not check the email address?
John
-
Copy and paste the following code here, you must not be logged in for the page to work
https://repl.it/languages/python3 (https://repl.it/languages/python3)
To find your scope id, use scpi command SCOPEID?
To enter keys, use scpi command LCISL optioncode,hexkey
To change bandwidth, use scpi command MCBD hexkey
-------
import hashlib
SCOPEID = '0000000000000000'
Model = 'SDS2000X+'
bwopt = ('25M', '40M', '50M', '60M', '70M', '100M', '150M', '200M', '250M', '300M', '350M', '500M', '750M', '1000M', 'MAX', 'AWG', 'WIFI', 'MSO', 'FLX', 'CFD', 'I2S', '1553', 'PWA', 'MANC', 'SENT')
hashkey = '5zao9lyua01pp7hjzm3orcq90mds63z6zi5kv7vmv3ih981vlwn06txnjdtas3u2wa8msx61i12ueh14t7kqwsfskg032nhyuy1d9vv2wm925rd18kih9xhkyilobbgy'
def gen(x):
h = hashlib.md5((
hashkey +
(Model+'\n').ljust(32, '\x00') +
opt.ljust(5, '\x00') +
2*((SCOPEID + '\n').ljust(32, '\x00')) +
'\x00'*16).encode('ascii')
).digest()
key = ''
for b in h:
if (b <= 0x2F or b > 0x39) and (b <= 0x60 or b > 0x7A):
m = b % 0x24
b = m + (0x57 if m > 9 else 0x30)
if b == 0x30: b = 0x32
if b == 0x31: b = 0x33
if b == 0x6c: b = 0x6d
if b == 0x6f: b = 0x70
key += chr(b)
return key.upper()
for opt in bwopt:
print('{:5} {}'.format(opt, gen(SCOPEID)))
--------
-
The script works even without verification procedure, immediately after simple registration, so I think, you can try it with some fake email. For these reasons I have one trash email address which I never check.
-
Does anyone have any information on whether Siglent SDS2000X+ is or will be supported by Sigrok software?
-
Is it now possible to search through the decoded protocols (both analog and digital channels)? Or is that feature still missing? If not, is it a problem with the architecture or should we expect it to appear in a newer firmware? Does the SDS5000X have it?
-
Hi,
If not, is it a problem with the architecture or should we expect it to appear in a newer firmware?
This question could only answer a siglent R&D engineer...
I guess, at siglent they got a priority-list of what to do and decode searching is a like to have, nothing really important.
But they got their eyes on threads like this and siglent is known for their feature add-ons in new firmware - Which the latest firmware impressively proves.
I don´t have flashed the latest yet, will do at this weekend.
AFAIK the sds5k don´t have the search function too - But the WS3024 from lecroy (sds3000 siglent) got it and it should be only a matter of modifying the software, no hardware limitation.
-
You can still offer an "Idiot's Guide" if you like but there's no longer any pressing need to do so on my part. Still, such a guide could prove itself useful in the future to deal with similar scenarios that will more than likely arise as time goes by.
What you did was correct. You should be able to paste it in a text file and run it. I believe in your case your default python is version 2 and the script wants version 3. You likely have it already installed and should just be able to run it at the command line with the python3 command. :)
$ python3 siglent.py
-
You can still offer an "Idiot's Guide" if you like but there's no longer any pressing need to do so on my part. Still, such a guide could prove itself useful in the future to deal with similar scenarios that will more than likely arise as time goes by.
What you did was correct. You should be able to paste it in a text file and run it. I believe in your case your default python is version 2 and the script wants version 3. You likely have it already installed and should just be able to run it at the command line with the python3 command. :)
$ python3 siglent.py
You hit the nail right on the head! ;) The installed version is, Python 2.7.6 (default, Nov 13 2018, 12:45:42). I did mention the version in one of these threads since I suspected this would likely cause the script to fail. Anyway, thanks to Elasia's work around, learning Python is no longer the high priority it once was. :)
John
-
Siglent's SDS6000Pro also shares basically the same code with SDS2000X+ (and SDS5000X) adding the 2GHz and 4GHz options.
This is a very smart approach to product line / product family management as it spreads the initial development NRE across many more units and it allows bug fix and product improvement opportunities to be surfaced by a larger user base. Plus for 2k+ users it is like buying real estate at the low end of a very nice neighborhood - it’s a great neighborhood for the the 5k and 6k neighbors but it’s an especially good deal for the 2k homeowners.
-
Question about Bode plot mode, I want to test my audio amplifier, is it good way?
(http://[attachimg=1])
-
Question about Bode plot mode, I want to test my audio amplifier, is it good way?
(http:// (Attachment Link) )
See Bode plot hookup images in this post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso5074-or-siglent-sds2104x-plus/msg3321894/#msg3321894 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso5074-or-siglent-sds2104x-plus/msg3321894/#msg3321894)
-
Hi,
I would use a Voltage-Divider on the output of the Amp, depending on the state of it´s volume level.
-
Thanks for usefull informations, I try without 50Ohm impedance according to first method and maybe without divider because signal is small (ca 4VP-P).
-
Thanks ELASIA!
New script works perfect for the new options! I used the simple web page without login you suggested.
(And it worked from scope's UI)
One question: I'm wondering why the new script generates different keys for my "old", unlocked options than that before.
Example: AWG "old": 5M2Z3J36YFSKBP4K AWG with new script: 4TPWYG66II6I8KT5
Are there different keys working on the same device?
B.D.
-
What is procedure to choose load in options BP? Are 4: 50Ω, 75Ω, 600Ω and H-Z so when my DUT is audio amp. and load is 8Ω then must choose H-Z? And when DUT is e.g. RC filter then choose 50Ω? So what they are for 75Ω and 600Ω options load?
-
Are there different keys working on the same device?
No.
-
What is procedure to choose load in options BP? Are 4: 50Ω, 75Ω, 600Ω and H-Z so when my DUT is audio amp. and load is 8Ω then must choose H-Z? And when DUT is e.g. RC filter then choose 50Ω? So what they are for 75Ω and 600Ω options load?
75ohm are for example video signals, 600 could stand for Audio (mic) and Hi-Z is above all, for example the input of your amp.
-
Are there different keys working on the same device?
No.
I made a point of comparing the original list of license keys against the new list and they were identical (as expected).
John
-
I still have the issue that I can't activate the Manchester key (being the last license) due to the issue described here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-hack/msg3322330/#msg3322330)(similar to the one described here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-hack/msg3234410/?topicseen#msg3234410))
Admittedly I have the SDS5000X but given that both scopes are supposed to run the same firmware, I'm puzzled that there is only one report similar to mine.
And even if I have asked that before: is the LCISL SCPI command supposed to work for options on the SDS2000X Plus and SDS5000X or is this just a dummy implementation which always returns "OK" but doesn't actually do anything?
-
I activate Sent and Manchester without any problems and errors on SDS2000X+
-
How is your LCISL command written?
-
I tried "LCISL MANC <key>" and several other things like "Manch" instead of "MANC". All resulted in an OK reply - even if I sent nonsense, but the Manchester option is still not activated.
-
Try: LCISL MANC,<key>
-
Ah, you're right. That works. For some reason there are several pages/posts that state "LCISL <option> <key>" without the comma.
Anyway, thanks a lot!
-
Ive got the SDS2104X+ fully "upgraded" with the firmware 1.3.7R5 (should be the newest).
I have random issues after boot, mostly first boot the day.
No buttons or touchscreen react and no lights on the buttons. Screen is there but no signal.
Cant do anything, i waited 10 minutes still the same.
After reboot everything is normal and works as it should.
Dont know if its because of the "upgrade", didnt test the Osci much before entering the keys.
Does anyone have similar problems?
-
Reflash the FW.
-
Tried it yesterday, today the same problem.
The problem is that i cant reproduce the issue, its mostly the first boot of the day and after a reboot it works flawless for hours.
-
Ive got the SDS2104X+ fully "upgraded" with the firmware 1.3.7R5 (should be the newest).
I have random issues after boot, mostly first boot the day.
No buttons or touchscreen react and no lights on the buttons. Screen is there but no signal.
Cant do anything, i waited 10 minutes still the same.
After reboot everything is normal and works as it should.
Dont know if its because of the "upgrade", didnt test the Osci much before entering the keys.
Does anyone have similar problems?
Just taken delivery of an SDS2104X+ direct from Siglent, 1.3.7R5, not upgraded yet, and boots ok. Will be attempting upgrades and let you know how it performs.
-
Upgraded and boots up in a a timely manner, same as out of the box, and fully functional.
-
Tried it yesterday, today the same problem.
The problem is that i cant reproduce the issue, its mostly the first boot of the day and after a reboot it works flawless for hours.
:-//
Things to try:
Secure erase to clear any hidden settings. (Save/Recall menu)
Factory Default then reboot then Self Cal.
Reboot.
Use normally.
Note settings at finish of day and if these have an effect on the next day instrument hang.
After above.
Just maybe we need connect you with a Siglent engineer so to get info from the scopes Debug menu so they can analyse what's going on.
-
Tried it yesterday, today the same problem.
The problem is that i cant reproduce the issue, its mostly the first boot of the day and after a reboot it works flawless for hours.
:-//
Things to try:
Secure erase to clear any hidden settings. (Save/Recall menu)
Factory Default then reboot then Self Cal.
Reboot.
Use normally.
Note settings at finish of day and if these have an effect on the next day instrument hang.
After above.
Just maybe we need connect you with a Siglent engineer so to get info from the scopes Debug menu so they can analyse what's going on.
I dunno about that... it almost sounds like it needs to be heated before it starts to work which implies a broke connection, maybe a bad solder joint.. if its still in its return window i'd get another
-
Tried it yesterday, today the same problem.
The problem is that i cant reproduce the issue, its mostly the first boot of the day and after a reboot it works flawless for hours.
:-//
Things to try:
Secure erase to clear any hidden settings. (Save/Recall menu)
Factory Default then reboot then Self Cal.
Reboot.
Use normally.
Note settings at finish of day and if these have an effect on the next day instrument hang.
After above.
Just maybe we need connect you with a Siglent engineer so to get info from the scopes Debug menu so they can analyse what's going on.
I dunno about that... it almost sounds like it needs to be heated before it starts to work which implies a broke connection, maybe a bad solder joint.. if its still in its return window i'd get another
Yeah VanBudd's unit isn't right but it maybe a result of the OS not being gracefully shut down due to these freezes.
The steps I outlined should get it behaving properly and if not I agree it might be better returned however these units are in demand so getting an instant replacement could be a concern.
-
Ill try your suggestions today.
If they dont help i will return it.
In Germany they are in stock, so should be no Problem to get a new unit.
Thanks for your help!
-
Heres a viedo of the behavior.
In the end it changes channels slowly, but i cant do anything.
Looks like a kind of emergency failure protocol or self testing.
(deleted)
-
Not good :(
The lights on all buttons should have off immediately, and then cycle through the self test. But none of that happened.
-
Heres a viedo of the behavior.
In the end it changes channels slowly, but i cant do anything.
Looks like a kind of emergency failure protocol or self testing.
As tubilarnut says it's not good however we can test if it's a HW problem by running the recovery software on it.
If that recovers it to how it should work you will need to install the latest firmware.
PM me your email and we'll do it by email.
-
PM received from VanBudd and email sent.
Fingers crossed for him !
Now we wait for the outcome.
Ponderings while we wait.....
The observant may remember a very few early units had problems with a freeze after updating with the first public release of firmware so a recovery package was rapidly constructed to fix this issue. Later FW was supposed to correct any problems and this is the very first issue I know of since then.
Hope it's not a HW problem............
News !
Apparently it's fixed ! :phew:
-
So far so good, had to try recovery two times.
Second try it boot up normaly and everything looks fine.
Time will tell if the problem is solved.
Stay tuned ;D
Special thanks to tautech for the very fast and kind support!
-
Hi!
I originally considered purchasing SDS2000X-E, but then accidentally found this thread. And now I really don't know what to do - SDS2000X+ seems much more interesting model, but it's more expensive than a base-level used car in my country... As I see from this thread, one can purchase SDS2104X Plus and upgrade it up to 500 MHz using just an ethernet cable, web browser and a python script, right? Also it seems to be possible to unlock the arbitrary waveform generator this way, right?
Unfortunately I cannot afford this scope right now, so I have to wait a while. What do you guys think, is it possible that Siglent is reading this thread and will change its private key in future so no more free upgrades will be available? Also, does the lowest 100 MHz model really have the same high-frequency path as the highest 350 MHz one? It's said on official sites that only one upgrade level is available - from 100 MHz to 200 MHz. Could it be that Siglent builds their scopes then tests its capabilities without BW limit and sorts them according to test results - the best ones are marked as 350 MHz, the middling as 200 MHz and the worst scopes as 100 MHz? In this case one can formally upgrade 100 MHz unit up to 500 MHz but won't get the same gain frequency characteristic as upgrading the 350 MHz scope.
-
Hi!
I originally considered purchasing SDS2000X-E, but then accidentally found this thread. And now I really don't know what to do - SDS2000X+ seems much more interesting model, but it's more expensive than a base-level used car in my country... As I see from this thread, one can purchase SDS2104X Plus and upgrade it up to 500 MHz using just an ethernet cable, web browser and a python script, right? Also it seems to be possible to unlock the arbitrary waveform generator this way, right?
Unfortunately I cannot afford this scope right now, so I have to wait a while. What do you guys think, is it possible that Siglent is reading this thread and will change its private key in future so no more free upgrades will be available? Also, does the lowest 100 MHz model really have the same high-frequency path as the highest 350 MHz one? It's said on official sites that only one upgrade level is available - from 100 MHz to 200 MHz. Could it be that Siglent builds their scopes then tests its capabilities without BW limit and sorts them according to test results - the best ones are marked as 350 MHz, the middling as 200 MHz and the worst scopes as 100 MHz? In this case one can formally upgrade 100 MHz unit up to 500 MHz but won't get the same gain frequency characteristic as upgrading the 350 MHz scope.
FYI all options except MSO are now free as part of a promotional package.
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e1464-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e1464-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/)
Study the BW upgrade options available here:
https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/)
100-200, 200-350 and 350-500 MHz for 2 channel 500 MHz capability only.
-
FYI all options except MSO are now free as part of a promotional package.
At this point, everybody must decide for himself what further hacking concerns.
Do I really need more bandwith for my work with it or leave it to 100Mhz to provide having the warranty for the next 3yrs...
-
FYI all options except MSO are now free as part of a promotional package.
At this point, everybody must decide for himself what further hacking concerns.
Do I really need more bandwith for my work with it or leave it to 100Mhz to provide having the warranty for the next 3yrs...
Exactly however as the proven BW of the 100 MHz SDS2104X Plus is ~185 MHz there is little need to hack them for most requirements.
-
FYI all options except MSO are now free as part of a promotional package.
At this point, everybody must decide for himself what further hacking concerns.
Do I really need more bandwith for my work with it or leave it to 100Mhz to provide having the warranty for the next 3yrs...
Overall this is important question. Not just related to this scope model here but overall.
It was some years ago some ask more BW using some tricks etc. More and more BW and also mod analog front for more and more BW. Just very narrow looking just more and more MHz... just like in digital camera things more and more pixels like it is only what matter.
In some bad day I give out "best hack or physical mod is reject maximum freq instead of mod it for higher".
Of course if we really need higher freq and system is ok for this, including also many things in practice and also adverse effects..
Higher BW rise noise. Higher BW without rising samplerate and result is propability to alising problems rise (what is still highly misunderstooded, forgotten and underestimated thing. One reason is perhaps that many trust what they see on screen and other problem is that many peoples like only playing fun with scopes, just for playing... and if they use known simple signals under scope all limits... they do not hit this problem at all)
It need tightly remember and keep in mind that oscilloscope is also for analyze unknown signals to find out what they really are. Unknown signal may have what ever frequency components. For trust even some amount about to result you need know aliasing based things did not visit and did not corrupt result.
What if we use an oscilloscope with FFT. Oh damn what a mess if we don’t know what and how we do. Then we present miraculous nonsense FFT pictures with nothing but "I just don't know, maybe".
FFT user’s best - very best - friend is set of low pass filter and a good ones as well as a steep enough for the required sample rates. Who can separate from FFT image peaks and say with certainty what is a harmonic alias and what is the correct harmonic of the signal. Specially when there is possible n*fNyquist things.
And here’s exactly the same thing as on the scope’s normal screen but in a different format. Frequency components that produce aliases. But now it is like... no matter, we want more MHz.
Who is interested in a modification where the frequency response of the front end of the oscilloscope is better limited!
Do not ask more MHz, ask better analog side filters. After ADC implemented filters do not know what is alias and what is not.
So, really,peoples need think carefully if want more MHz with this way here.
Of course 2GSa/s can easy solve over 500MHz sinewave. But if not need this, what it give. Just "nice to have"
and same way some other extra..... "nice to have bit more noise" ... "nice to have bit more room for aliasing"
Imho, this Siglent promotional offer for free Options is nice.
-
]
I originally considered purchasing SDS2000X-E, but then accidentally found this thread. And now I really don't know what to do - SDS2000X+ seems much more interesting model, but it's more expensive than a base-level used car in my country... As I see from this thread, one can purchase SDS2104X Plus and upgrade it up to 500 MHz using just an ethernet cable, web browser and a python script, right? Also it seems to be possible to unlock the arbitrary waveform generator this way, right?
I was/am in a similar situation recently. Scopes are a rabbit hole and the upper bound is multi-GHz units at $100'000+ prices. Before you know it you will be looking at units well above your means.
The only way to stay grounded to reality is to buy what you NEED.
So my advice is to think about your use case and what you are likely to work on in the next few years (yes, a scope is expected to last for years).
Then do your purchase based on that, and not on whatever is available on the market.
As noted above the 500MHz upgrade is available only on 350MHz base models, so be careful with that. But do you NEED so much bandwidth ? :)
-
]
I originally considered purchasing SDS2000X-E, but then accidentally found this thread. And now I really don't know what to do - SDS2000X+ seems much more interesting model, but it's more expensive than a base-level used car in my country... As I see from this thread, one can purchase SDS2104X Plus and upgrade it up to 500 MHz using just an ethernet cable, web browser and a python script, right? Also it seems to be possible to unlock the arbitrary waveform generator this way, right?
I was/am in a similar situation recently. Scopes are a rabbit hole and the upper bound is multi-GHz units at $100'000+ prices. Before you know it you will be looking at units well above your means.
The only way to stay grounded to reality is to buy what you NEED.
So my advice is to think about your use case and what you are likely to work on in the next few years (yes, a scope is expected to last for years).
Then do your purchase based on that, and not on whatever is available on the market.
As noted above the 500MHz upgrade is available only on 350MHz base models, so be careful with that. But do you NEED so much bandwidth ? :)
500MHz upgrade is officially available only on 350MHz base models.
For "other methods" there is no limitations.
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Hey guys, filthy zero poster here.
I have been investigating which scope I should get for some time now and the SDS2000X+ series is a candidate.
But I do not fully understand the decoder specs listed in the datasheet (top of page 13) where it states that it has 2 decoders of full duplex type.
What does this mean in practice?
Scenario example 1: it can at most decode two different pairs of MOSI+MISO, originating from two different SPI busses at the SAME time <-- i think this should be okay
Scenario example 2: it can at most decode four different MISO lines, originating from four different SPI busses at the SAME time <-- i think this is out of spec?
Am I understanding this correctly?
- Does anyone have a screenshot of maximum decoder usage in action?
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Hey guys, filthy zero poster here.
I have been investigating which scope I should get for some time now and the SDS2000X+ series is a candidate.
But I do not fully understand the decoder specs listed in the datasheet (top of page 13) where it states that it has 2 decoders of full duplex type.
What does this mean in practice?
Scenario example 1: it can at most decode two different pairs of MOSI+MISO, originating from two different SPI busses at the SAME time <-- i think this should be okay
Scenario example 2: it can at most decode four different MISO lines, originating from four different SPI busses at the SAME time <-- i think this is out of spec?
Am I understanding this correctly?
- Does anyone have a screenshot of maximum decoder usage in action?
Yes that is correct. That is different from how R&S counts one signal decode as decoder. So with R&S, for 2 full SPI buses you have to get scope with 4 decoders....
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]
As noted above the 500MHz upgrade is available only on 350MHz base models, so be careful with that. But do you NEED so much bandwidth ? :)
500MHz upgrade is officially available only on 350MHz base models.
For "other methods" there is no limitations.
OH! Thanks for the correction ! :-+ :-+
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Thank you for answers. I currently have 100 MHz 2-ch Rigol oscilloscope (and it's been my good friend all these years), its real bandwidth is about 170 MHz (without significant amplitude loss), and it's not enough for some of my projects. So I started looking for some upgrading. Yes, I may not need the 500 MHz BW, 95% of time I even may not need anything more than 100 MHz, but sometimes I really need something like 350 MHz. That's why I am finally looking at this model. To say nothing of its excellent features and capabilities comparing to my current Rigol.
BTW, I don't think that aliasing @500 MHz could be a serious problem for a 2 GSa/s channel. It uses four samples per oscillation and it's twice the Nyquist frequency. I.e. the scope will correctly show 500 MHz signal (considering software interpolation) independently of its phase. Here I just think of 500 MHz scope as of a scope that simply can show faster edges. And this is really good if you are going to check HF harmonics. But if you need to narrow the BW down, there is the corresponding menu option (as I understand). Or just a standard cheap 200 MHz probe.
Yeah, probably this scope is above my budget, but as it was correctly stated here you are not going to purchase a scope for just this moment and your current needs. You are going to purchase it for some years ahead. And that's where you may need additional BW.
The free options pack is really excellent, but the offer will last until the end of March. Probably if I finally end up with this model I should purchase it until that moment. Regarding unofficial BW upgrading and warranty policy - is it true that one will lost the warranty if upgrades BW himself? On the other hand, I'm living in Russia, there is no official Siglent store here, so I don't know whether I'm able to use Siglent warranty anyway. Instead of Siglent we have an АКИП-4129А here: https://prist.ru/catalog/ostsillografy_tsifrovye/akip_4129a/ (https://prist.ru/catalog/ostsillografy_tsifrovye/akip_4129a/). And it must be noted that Russian translation of its front panel is just awful.
P.S. Here I'd like to specially state that I really appreciate the hard work that Siglent does designing their oscilloscopes, and if it was possible for me to buy the BW officially, I'd definitely do it, but it's just too much for a simple hobby projects (I'm a software engineer myself, so I don't need it for work).
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I've just got my SDS2104X Plus. Everything is working pretty well except for the calibration signal, it seems that it is internally bad soldered or something as it will change all over the place as I move the probe connected to it. Tried with another scope and get the same issue. I don't care much about the calibration issue, but this is making me think that the scope could have other problems. I don't want to send it for RMA and have to wait a month for it to come back, anything I could be missing?
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I've just got my SDS2104X Plus. Everything is working pretty well except for the calibration signal, it seems that it is internally bad soldered or something as it will change all over the place as I move the probe connected to it. Tried with another scope and get the same issue. I don't care much about the calibration issue, but this is making me think that the scope could have other problems. I don't want to send it for RMA and have to wait a month for it to come back, anything I could be missing?
Try setting the AWG to 3Vp-p 1 KHz square wave and probe that as a sanity check. There is a chance it's a dicky probe although its been a long time since I had a dud PP215 probe.
Maybe the grabber isn't making a good contact with the probe tip.
Double check this using different probes.
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Try setting the AWG to 3Vp-p 1 KHz square wave and probe that as a sanity check. There is a chance it's a dicky probe although its been a long time since I had a dud PP215 probe.
Maybe the grabber isn't making a good contact with the probe tip.
Double check this using different probes.
Clearly the calibration connector is not properly connected internally. I've tried with other source of signal and the probes are perfect, also tried with other probes that also work without problems and fail to get a proper signal from the cal points in the SDS2104X Plus. And if I just make a bit of pressure to the right on the signal connector I'll get a proper signal.
I suppose I'll wait a month or so just to see if there is anything else broken and send it for RMA after the holidays. The worst part is that I've just sold my old scope and waiting a month for the new one to be replaced it is going to be hard :(
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Try setting the AWG to 3Vp-p 1 KHz square wave and probe that as a sanity check. There is a chance it's a dicky probe although its been a long time since I had a dud PP215 probe.
Maybe the grabber isn't making a good contact with the probe tip.
Double check this using different probes.
Clearly the calibration connector is not properly connected internally. I've tried with other source of signal and the probes are perfect, also tried with other probes that also work without problems and fail to get a proper signal from the cal points in the SDS2104X Plus. And if I just make a bit of pressure to the right on the signal connector I'll get a proper signal.
I suppose I'll wait a month or so just to see if there is anything else broken and send it for RMA after the holidays. The worst part is that I've just sold my old scope and waiting a month for the new one to be replaced it is going to be hard :(
OK thanks. So this seems like it could be a manufacturing fault where the probe Cal inserts have not solder wetted properly resulting in a dry joint or there just isn't enough solder for the joint to be physically strong enough.
Will pop an email to the factory about this but you should pop a message to the chaps in Ohio or your supplier also.
Pop them a link to this series of posts also.
Of course the solution will be to resolder the Cal fitting or replace the mainboard or replace the scope.
Ohio will decide the best way forward.
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I bought it from Saelig, should I contact the distributor or just talk to Siglent America directly?
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I bought it from Saelig, should I contact the distributor or just talk to Siglent America directly?
Let Saelig handle it and/or advise you on the best method to get it addressed.
Which are you closest to ?
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Let Saelig handle it and/or advise you on the best method to get it addressed.
Which are you closest to ?
I've opened an RMA with Saelig, and of course, now, after having applied a bit pressure to the right on the connector, I'm unable to reproduce it and now it is working ok. I'm going to send it anyway, as probably is going to be easy to see if disassembled and the "apply a bit of pressure" doesn't seem like the proper fix :)
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Let Saelig handle it and/or advise you on the best method to get it addressed.
Which are you closest to ?
I've opened an RMA with Saelig, and of course, now, after having applied a bit pressure to the right on the connector, I'm unable to reproduce it and now it is working ok. I'm going to send it anyway, as probably is going to be easy to see if disassembled and the "apply a bit of pressure" doesn't seem like the proper fix :)
No it's not a proper fix however you need ensure it will give further problems as when you send it back and techs try to replicate the issue and not succeed you might get it back again.
I know that would drive me :rant:
Wiggle it heaps.....just to be double sure it's got a problem. ;)
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No it's not a proper fix however you need ensure it will give further problems as when you send it back and techs try to replicate the issue and not succeed you might get it back again.
I know that would drive me :rant:
Wiggle it heaps.....just to be double sure it's got a problem. ;)
Will they open the scope and verify the solder points or just try the cal points and if it works that's good enough and they won't even open it? Also I haven't seen photos of the front of the mainboard, is the cal connector soldered directly to the board or could it be that by pushing a bit I made a connector fully "connect" with the socket or whatever is soldered to the board?
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No it's not a proper fix however you need ensure it will give further problems as when you send it back and techs try to replicate the issue and not succeed you might get it back again.
I know that would drive me :rant:
Wiggle it heaps.....just to be double sure it's got a problem. ;)
Will they open the scope and verify the solder points or just try the cal points and if it works that's good enough and they won't even open it? Also I haven't seen photos of the front of the mainboard, is the cal connector soldered directly to the board or could it be that by pushing a bit I made a connector fully "connect" with the socket or whatever is soldered to the board?
IME they are lugs soldered to the PCB.
Check the teardown vids on P1 of this thread where the tails of the lugs should be visible on the bottom side of the PCB...the side that's visible in the teardowns. ;)
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IME they are lugs soldered to the PCB.
Check the teardown vids on P1 of this thread where the tails of the lugs should be visible on the bottom side of the PCB...the side that's visible in the teardowns. ;)
Saelig tech support contacted me and told me that they are actually not directly soldered but plugged into some kind of socket connected to the board, and that I should try to push them a bit just to make sure that they are properly connected. This seems aligned with my experience of fixing it by pushing a bit. I've tried to wiggle it to see if it would get worse but I was unable to do "break" it again. So, for now, everything is working as expected. Also... NICE SCOPE! :D
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Also... NICE SCOPE! :D
For myself it became NICER the more I used it, as I mentioned many times exceeding my expectations over and over again. From the low noise front end, very large input offset range, quality ADCs, 10 bit mode, the 500uv/div (not digitally scaled), the FFT, the Bode' plot, the Web Interface, UI, and so on, but the most important aspect of these DSOs is the quick, quality information you get from a few of the knowledgable folks here.
If you have access to a very accurate DVM and a reasonably clean and stable voltage source, check out just how good the front end and ADCs are. Then check out the FFT, then the Bode' Plot. Caution, all this may put a big grin on your face ;D
Edit: Forgot to mention the "expanded BW" with the help of folks here, mine was expanded from 100MHz to 350MHz, then to a measured 615MHz ::)
Best,
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I wonder if mawyatt is happy with his purchase ?
;D
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I wonder if mawyatt is happy with his purchase ?
;D
Na, it's just a scope after all ;)
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Didn´t saw this before, a comparison list from siglent:
https://int.siglent.com/products-comparison/sds2000xp/#navs
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Didn´t saw this before, a comparison list from siglent:
https://int.siglent.com/products-comparison/sds2000xp/#navs
I made a copy just for the record.
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Hello people,
It seems some of you have made extensive testing of the SDS2000X Plus and also have a broadwide experience about oscilloscopes. I see it is compared to the MSO5000 from rigol, how would it perform against a MSO7000 ? In terms of noise floor for example.
I may have the possibility to get one of these fully equiped (no price consideration here) but I never used a rigol or siglent scope, I'm completely unaware of the differences in terms of UI experience I always had a techtronix mdo3000 at work.
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Hello people,
It seems some of you have made extensive testing of the SDS2000X Plus and also have a broadwide experience about oscilloscopes. I see it is compared to the MSO5000 from rigol, how would it perform against a MSO7000 ? In terms of noise floor for example.
I may have the possibility to get one of these fully equiped (no price consideration here) but I never used a rigol or siglent scope, I'm completely unaware of the differences in terms of UI experience I always had a techtronix mdo3000 at work.
I have the MDO3000, as well as the MSO5000 and SDS2000X Plus.
I've always found the MDO3000 (& MDO4000) UIs to be terrible in terms or usability (e.g., the two multifunction knobs and button menus, with little apparent consistency) and it's also slow. IMHO, both the MSO5000 and SDS2000X Plus have better, more intuitive UIs than the MDO3000. The SDS2000X Plus is the more polished unit compared to the MSO5000 by some way.
I'd prefer it that all functions were available using the knobs and buttons without using the touch screen, the Siglent is the worst in that respect, whereas almost everything seems to be available on the Rigol. Of course as you know the Tek isn't touch screen enabled, so everything's on knobs & buttons. I prefer the direct independent channel controls of the Rigol & Tek to the shared controls on the Siglent.
The noise and UI delay when changing timebase is annoying on the MSO5000.
The best screen of the three scopes is the Siglent.
I find the memory management on the Rigol is perhaps the best of the lot, followed by the Siglent then the Tek: on the Tek I find myself having to continually adjust the acqusition settings to compromise between UI performance and desired capture length. The Siglent has a weird memory recording feature similar to segmented memory that's always on, and it's not my cup of tea.
I don't have any direct experience on the MSO7000, although I believe it's based the same front end ASICs as the MSO5000.
Of all three, there's no doubt I'd be using the Siglent as my daily driver... it wasn't for the two Keysights already on the bench which have the best UIs IMO ;-) although I also keep an MDO4000 on the bench as there are a very few features that scope has that I sometimes use that I don't have on my Keysights (USB HS & Ethernet decode, Magniview, deeper memory and very occasionally I even use the SA feature).
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Hello people,
It seems some of you have made extensive testing of the SDS2000X Plus and also have a broadwide experience about oscilloscopes. I see it is compared to the MSO5000 from rigol, how would it perform against a MSO7000 ? In terms of noise floor for example.
I may have the possibility to get one of these fully equiped (no price consideration here) but I never used a rigol or siglent scope, I'm completely unaware of the differences in terms of UI experience I always had a techtronix mdo3000 at work.
If a higher sample rate and individual controls suit you better there is also the SDS5000X range.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/)
These came out a year or so before SDS2000X Plus and the UI is very similar
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I don't have any direct experience on the MSO7000, although I believe it's based the same front end ASICs as the MSO5000.
Yepp,
Disappointed from the noise of my 5000, I´ve asked the rigol support of what about the 7000 and they wrote me, the frontend should be the same.
So I bought a 2000x+ instead of another rigol.
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Forget the SDS5000X... wait for the SDS6000 :rant:
it's a damn shame they wont send that model over seas or i'd buy one.. price on tmall is pretty reasonable
https://www.siglent.com/products-annex/sds6000-pro/ (https://www.siglent.com/products-annex/sds6000-pro/)
Tell them to hurry up and sell that and the sps5000x.. i need a new power supply
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Forget the SDS5000X... wait for the SDS6000 :rant:
it's a damn shame they wont send that model over seas or i'd buy one.. price on tmall is pretty reasonable
https://www.siglent.com/products-annex/sds6000-pro/ (https://www.siglent.com/products-annex/sds6000-pro/)
Trouble is as it's a China only model at this time it is unlikely to offer an English UI. This was the case when I looked at a SDS3000 when visiting the factory in late 2014.
Tell them to hurry up and sell that and the sps5000x.. i need a new power supply
:)
I went fishing for a predicted release date last week but that request was ignored. :-//
My guess now based on other new products we spot release will be early next year....maybe right before or after the Chinese NY late Jan or mid Feb.
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Who needs an english UI? :P
Yeah that sounds about right.. then maybe first shipments april/may.. that lines up with a project i got so hopefully they do
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Forget the SDS5000X... wait for the SDS6000 :rant:
Hehe...
Me, I got a hint too. 8)
Honestly, from the view as a hobbist, I´m very confident with my sds2K+, in my opinion it beats up everything under it´s great brother sds5k.
And I´m playing with the thoughts to buy a sds5k seriously.
But it´s too near to the 2k+, so I´m waiting... ;)
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Hello people,
It seems some of you have made extensive testing of the SDS2000X Plus and also have a broadwide experience about oscilloscopes. I see it is compared to the MSO5000 from rigol, how would it perform against a MSO7000 ? In terms of noise floor for example.
I may have the possibility to get one of these fully equiped (no price consideration here) but I never used a rigol or siglent scope, I'm completely unaware of the differences in terms of UI experience I always had a techtronix mdo3000 at work.
If a higher sample rate and individual controls suit you better there is also the SDS5000X range.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/)
These came out a year or so before SDS2000X Plus and the UI is very similar
This is slightly off topic but from what I gathered here and there I have the following cons (the ones that bothers me the most at least) :
MDO7000 :
-Noisy (how much I don't know)
-BP function doesn't exist (but on the 5000 it does??)
-People here seems to not like the UI (from what I recall from dave's videos it seems he liked the MSO7000 UI more than the SDS5000X's)
SDS5000X :
-External AWG, I really hate this
SDS2000X Plus:
-Only 1GS/s with 4 channels on
-No individual controls of the channels
I don't know if the SDS5000X front end is better than the SDS2000X plus' one, I know the price isn't a guarantee of quality but the price of the MDO7000 I saw on a quotation was 1000$ more than for the SDS5000X (350MHz version) and it's not obvious for me why the gap was so big.
Also I have 10days to decide which model I'd like
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Forget the SDS5000X... wait for the SDS6000 :rant:
Hehe...
Me, I got a hint too. 8)
Honestly, from the view as a hobbist, I´m very confident with my sds2K+, in my opinion it beats up everything under it´s great brother sds5k.
And I´m playing with the thoughts to buy a sds5k seriously.
But it´s too near to the 2k+, so I´m waiting... ;)
IMHO they made a significant mistook not adding an internal AWG to SDS5kX or SDS6k Pro. :(
However at least the SAG1021I AWG module is isolated output. :phew:
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IMHO they made a significant mistook not adding an internal AWG to SDS5kX or SDS6k Pro.
No Sir, in my opinion it´s the way to show that you will get a pro scope.... ;) 8)
Pro scopes are pure scopes without toys like this....
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Also I have 10days to decide which model I'd like
IMO you need consider future needs also and pricing of accessories you might not need right now.
Also running promotions:
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/address-more-applications-with-the-free-option-bundle-for-new-sds5000x-oscilloscopes/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/address-more-applications-with-the-free-option-bundle-for-new-sds5000x-oscilloscopes/)
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e1464-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e1464-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/)
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Also I have 10days to decide which model I'd like
IMO you need consider future needs also and pricing of accessories you might not need right now.
Also running promotions:
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/address-more-applications-with-the-free-option-bundle-for-new-sds5000x-oscilloscopes/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/address-more-applications-with-the-free-option-bundle-for-new-sds5000x-oscilloscopes/)
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e1464-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e1464-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/)
Accessories are pretty much known for every possible model I could chose, still looking for a good way to use tek current probes looks like it's possible with some efforts but that's not even mandatory.
Do you know if the sds2000x plus has a lower noise floor than the sds5000x (for the same BW of course) ?
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Also I have 10days to decide which model I'd like
IMO you need consider future needs also and pricing of accessories you might not need right now.
Also running promotions:
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/address-more-applications-with-the-free-option-bundle-for-new-sds5000x-oscilloscopes/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/address-more-applications-with-the-free-option-bundle-for-new-sds5000x-oscilloscopes/)
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e1464-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e1464-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/)
Do you know if the sds2000x plus has a lower noise floor than the sds5000x (for the same BW of course) ?
Some simple noise measurements from my SDS5054X:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2427846/#msg2427846 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2427846/#msg2427846)
Another from Performa01 here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2828666/#msg2828666 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2828666/#msg2828666)
Accessories are pretty much known for every possible model I could chose, still looking for a good way to use tek current probes looks like it's possible with some efforts but that's not even mandatory.
A LeCroy active probe adapter is already available and a Tek one is to come later.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg3061084/#msg3061084 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg3061084/#msg3061084)
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IMHO they made a significant mistook not adding an internal AWG to SDS5kX or SDS6k Pro.
No Sir, in my opinion it´s the way to show that you will get a pro scope.... ;) 8)
Pro scopes are pure scopes without toys like this....
I agree with that. If you were to add an AWG to a "very serious" scope and expect people to pay for enabling it, it cannot be a toy like in the SDS2k+.
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I don't know of any scope that has built in AWG that is not "toy".
They mostly have very limited capabilities, and low output levels..
I find them useful for FRA (that can be nicely polished by manufacturer when they have fixed hardware), and occasionally, for a quick "record-replay" of some signal (with ability to add noise to it)..
For everything else, outside AWG will be better.
That being said, you can do a lot with built in gen, many times you don't need fancy features.
So for me, it's not clear love/hate for those built in AWGs..
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I received my SDS2KX+ today and am trying to generate an option key on http://service.siglenteu.com/easyweb/ (http://service.siglenteu.com/easyweb/) but simply nothing is being generated. Only some chinese text that translates to 'Getting' on google translate.
Anyone else having such an issue?
And does anyone know if that site even tells you if no match can be found to the filled information or any of that sort?
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I received my SDS2KX+ today and am trying to generate an option key on http://service.siglenteu.com/easyweb/ (http://service.siglenteu.com/easyweb/) but simply nothing is being generated. Only some chinese text that translates to 'Getting' on google translate.
Anyone else having such an issue?
And does anyone know if that site even tells you if no match can be found to the filled information or any of that sort?
Do you have a pdf Option Card from Siglent ? (Attached is what one looks like. It has been redeemed/used)
It has the option code to enter into the option web page which will generate the option licenses.
If you have option licenses not on an Option Card you can enter them directly into the scope.
Note, the option codes and option licenses look very similar as they are both 16 character hexadecimal strings.
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I received my SDS2KX+ today and am trying to generate an option key on http://service.siglenteu.com/easyweb/ (http://service.siglenteu.com/easyweb/) but simply nothing is being generated. Only some chinese text that translates to 'Getting' on google translate.
Anyone else having such an issue?
And does anyone know if that site even tells you if no match can be found to the filled information or any of that sort?
Do you have a pdf Option Card from Siglent ? (Attached is what one looks like. It has been redeemed/used)
It has the option code to enter into the option web page which will generate the option licenses.
If you have option licenses not on an Option Card you can enter them directly into the scope.
Note, the option codes and option licenses look very similar as they are both 16 character hexadecimal strings.
I was provided an option card (like the one you attached), but inserting the given authorized code into the web page gets me nowhere and I cant tell if it is rejected or if Siglent is having issues on their end.
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I received my SDS2KX+ today and am trying to generate an option key on http://service.siglenteu.com/easyweb/ (http://service.siglenteu.com/easyweb/) but simply nothing is being generated. Only some chinese text that translates to 'Getting' on google translate.
Anyone else having such an issue?
And does anyone know if that site even tells you if no match can be found to the filled information or any of that sort?
Do you have a pdf Option Card from Siglent ? (Attached is what one looks like. It has been redeemed/used)
It has the option code to enter into the option web page which will generate the option licenses.
If you have option licenses not on an Option Card you can enter them directly into the scope.
Note, the option codes and option licenses look very similar as they are both 16 character hexadecimal strings.
I was provided an option card (like the one you attached), but inserting the given authorized code into the web page gets me nowhere and I cant tell if it is rejected or if Siglent is having issues on their end.
OK, insertion by typing in or Copy/Paste ?
I have found using the scopes webserver the fastest and least error prone method of enabling options.
In particular, in some scopes the SCOPEID is difficult to see whereas Copy/Paste from the System Info page into the Easyweb page removes any chance of error.
The Easyweb page also allows for printing of each license code after license generation for convenient copies of each license and each has the instruction of how to insert licenses into the scope.
I will also check today with the factory if the Easyweb page is operating correctly....some hours yet before they are at work.
In the meanwhile all options are free for 30 trial uses so please just use the scope while we sort this out.
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So for me, it's not clear love/hate for those built in AWGs..
I´m with you - For doing quick a bode, using the internal gen is a fine thing - and it´s 50Mhz are way over for my needings.. 8)
On the other hand, I'm "afraid" that without the generator placing into the board you might have had a little more "scope"... :D
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I don't know of any scope that has built in AWG that is not "toy".
They mostly have very limited capabilities, and low output levels..
The signal generator in the RTB2004 is pretty capable. It can do different modulations, sweeps, bursts and logic signal emulation (I2C, Serial, CAN, SPI...) and can replace a separate unit for most tasks. The output levels are still pretty low though, but I find that to be an acceptable compromise for a built-in feature.
It is not like the signal generator in the SDS2k scope, which can only do static waveforms. The hardware seems capable enough (50MHz, 125Msps!), but the software really lets it down...
The scope part of the SDS2k is a different positive story :)
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I received my SDS2KX+ today and am trying to generate an option key on http://service.siglenteu.com/easyweb/ (http://service.siglenteu.com/easyweb/) but simply nothing is being generated. Only some chinese text that translates to 'Getting' on google translate.
Anyone else having such an issue?
And does anyone know if that site even tells you if no match can be found to the filled information or any of that sort?
Do you have a pdf Option Card from Siglent ? (Attached is what one looks like. It has been redeemed/used)
It has the option code to enter into the option web page which will generate the option licenses.
If you have option licenses not on an Option Card you can enter them directly into the scope.
Note, the option codes and option licenses look very similar as they are both 16 character hexadecimal strings.
I was provided an option card (like the one you attached), but inserting the given authorized code into the web page gets me nowhere and I cant tell if it is rejected or if Siglent is having issues on their end.
OK, insertion by typing in or Copy/Paste ?
I have found using the scopes webserver the fastest and least error prone method of enabling options.
In particular, in some scopes the SCOPEID is difficult to see whereas Copy/Paste from the System Info page into the Easyweb page removes any chance of error.
The Easyweb page also allows for printing of each license code after license generation for convenient copies of each license and each has the instruction of how to insert licenses into the scope.
I will also check today with the factory if the Easyweb page is operating correctly....some hours yet before they are at work.
In the meanwhile all options are free for 30 trial uses so please just use the scope while we sort this out.
I tried again today with exact same values and this time it did generate a license key which the scope also accepted. So it seems that it was some issue on their end.
On a side note:
About the web interface, I only have 1 ethernet port on my PC which is already in use. Has there been any experiences with an ethernet to usb adapter - do those things work flawlessly?
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I don't know of any scope that has built in AWG that is not "toy".
They mostly have very limited capabilities, and low output levels..
The signal generator in the RTB2004 is pretty capable. It can do different modulations, sweeps, bursts and logic signal emulation (I2C, Serial, CAN, SPI...) and can replace a separate unit for most tasks. The output levels are still pretty low though, but I find that to be an acceptable compromise for a built-in feature.
It is not like the signal generator in the SDS2k scope, which can only do static waveforms. The hardware seems capable enough (50MHz, 125Msps!), but the software really lets it down...
The scope part of the SDS2k is a different positive story :)
RTB2000 gen looks good on paper, in practice it is limited by output levels.
With siggens, I usually have binary use case: either it is simple signal, maybe sweep, etc. or it is some complicated thing, usually two channels are needed. Or attenuators needed. Or some other
For digital signals, it is mostly that if I need to generate some signals, then I need to be able to send specific, real messages. Pseudorandom messages RTB2000 makes are good only for scope demonstrations..
They are only datasheet feature.
Fact is that most siggens in scopes have primary use for FRA and for grab and replay AWG functions. Even for that, there is sometimes need to supplement them with amplifier to make for weak output amps.
Even cheapest standalone AWG will be more powerful.
For digital signals I use Digital Discovery that will give you multichannel pattern generator with serial protocols and decoding, scripting, ROM logic mode etc etc. Very powerful little thing.
I would not pay for AWG option on a scope, same money gives real standalone appliance that is superior.
I have siggen enabled on my MSOX3000T, but only because it came free in bundle.
After 2 years, I used it only for those two purposes ( those I used quite a lot ). Make note that 3000T gen is also quite capable, not that basic. It is much better than my old Hameg analog HM8030-6.
I did use it maybe few times, when I needed simple signal to check something.. It was there and already on. But if it weren't there, I wouldn't miss it.
So in my opinion, Siglent made appropriate amount of effort with AWG that fits well for my use case. I would hate for them to spend time on unimportant AWG when they can refine FFT, FRA, and scope in general. Once that is polished enough, they could add a thing or two to AWG if they can. That is fine. Better is better. But I think it shouldn't be priority.
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Have a look at getting an ethernet hub or switch, I've used NetGear ones and you can get a five port hub for UK £25.
Connect you PC to the Hub and your other item currently connected (so you will need 1 additional ethernet cable) and then connect your scope (another ethernet cable) to the hub as well.
Each item will need it's own IP address (but not the hub/switch). So it should just be the scope you need to set the IP address on as your current setup (if working) should have them.
Hope this helps.
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I received my SDS2KX+ today and am trying to generate an option key on http://service.siglenteu.com/easyweb/ (http://service.siglenteu.com/easyweb/) but simply nothing is being generated. Only some chinese text that translates to 'Getting' on google translate.
Anyone else having such an issue?
And does anyone know if that site even tells you if no match can be found to the filled information or any of that sort?
Do you have a pdf Option Card from Siglent ? (Attached is what one looks like. It has been redeemed/used)
It has the option code to enter into the option web page which will generate the option licenses.
If you have option licenses not on an Option Card you can enter them directly into the scope.
Note, the option codes and option licenses look very similar as they are both 16 character hexadecimal strings.
I was provided an option card (like the one you attached), but inserting the given authorized code into the web page gets me nowhere and I cant tell if it is rejected or if Siglent is having issues on their end.
OK, insertion by typing in or Copy/Paste ?
I have found using the scopes webserver the fastest and least error prone method of enabling options.
In particular, in some scopes the SCOPEID is difficult to see whereas Copy/Paste from the System Info page into the Easyweb page removes any chance of error.
The Easyweb page also allows for printing of each license code after license generation for convenient copies of each license and each has the instruction of how to insert licenses into the scope.
I will also check today with the factory if the Easyweb page is operating correctly....some hours yet before they are at work.
In the meanwhile all options are free for 30 trial uses so please just use the scope while we sort this out.
I tried again today with exact same values and this time it did generate a license key which the scope also accepted. So it seems that it was some issue on their end.
On a side note:
About the web interface, I only have 1 ethernet port on my PC which is already in use. Has there been any experiences with an ethernet to usb adapter - do those things work flawlessly?
What Mouse69 said.
Get a switch, even brand new 1Gbit 5 port switches are cheap and not much more expensive than cables...
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10G switches are even cheap now these days..
a 4 10G / 16 1G for 150? crazy
https://www.arubainstanton.com/files/DS_AIO_1930SwitchSeries.pdf (https://www.arubainstanton.com/files/DS_AIO_1930SwitchSeries.pdf)
If you were around ohio i'd just give you one out of my junk bin.. i got so many 8 port switches hanging around i should send them to the scrapyard and appease the wife unit
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RTB2000 gen looks good on paper, in practice it is limited by output levels.
....
I would hate for them to spend time on unimportant AWG...
OK, now we know you dont need it. Good for you. :clap: However, others may have other needs...
Yes, output levels are always limited ::). However 5-6Vpp is more than enough for many tasks: Interfacing logic, driving transistors, providing line audio signal, RF signals up to ~10dBm.
Adding an external amplifier or using a separate generator when needing higher levels is an excellent hardware trade-off. However gimping the siggen software just to sell a separate unit is not. So I would rather Siglent spent a little more time on giving the siggen some love. ;D
Also being a bit imaginative, some unique and innovative scope/siggen features (like the Bode plotter) could be made: Trigging waveforms/bursts when scope trigs, modulate signal with scope input (BW limited of course). :popcorn:
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RTB2000 gen looks good on paper, in practice it is limited by output levels.
....
I would hate for them to spend time on unimportant AWG...
OK, now we know you dont need it. Good for you. :clap: However, others may have other needs...
Yes, output levels are always limited ::). However 5-6Vpp is more than enough for many tasks: Interfacing logic, driving transistors, providing line audio signal, RF signals up to ~10dBm.
Adding an external amplifier or using a separate generator when needing higher levels is an excellent hardware trade-off. However gimping the siggen software just to sell a separate unit is not. So I would rather Siglent spent a little more time on giving the siggen some love. ;D
Also being a bit imaginative, some unique and innovative scope/siggen features (like the Bode plotter) could be made: Trigging waveforms/bursts when scope trigs, modulate signal with scope input (BW limited of course). :popcorn:
No need to be snarky..
I'm speaking from position of my experience.. I don't speak from a position of what I like, but what I experienced in practice.
I can't pretend those are universal truth. So hence I use those words.
But, I do have a lot of experience, and work on many different types of projects (customers choose what I do), and I'm sharing that experience with people.
In practice built in siggens are used for easy replay of captured data (for better quality, you still need to upload data somewhere, massage it on PC and then load in higher quality/capability AWG for more control),
they are best way to have FRA in a scope (outside gens work but it is not as elegant),
they are used for scope demonstrations,
they are used in EDU environments,
and they are used when you have nothing else around .
They are more than enough to do basic check of audio amps, AM radio, and lots of other stuff. They are infinitely better than nothing.
I still think, that you and everybody else would get better value if they had put simple, stupid AWG in RTB2000 like the one in SDS2000X+ (which would still be useful for FRA and simple stuff) and in return for that simplification, to have given you 4 ch simplex of decodes instead of 2ch simplex. Because there a dozens of people bitching about that here on forum, and I don't remember many here decided which scope to buy based on AWG as very important point.
Siglent simply kept their priorities right : It's a scope with auxiliary siggen. R&S has more of a marketing approach: Lets see what gizmos can we add that will not cost much in BOM and they will be nice to see on datasheet, so we have "more stuff" than competition.. That is fine, but in practice, as I explained before, not necessarily very useful in real life. And you paid for it. You want for Siglent to give you all that development for free, but R&S made you pay for that additional AWG development through higher base price of instrument (and license to enable it), whether you use it or not.
And also those "unique and innovative scope/siggen features (like the Bode plotter) could be made: " could be made on any scope with built in AWG. It's just code, really..
You know why those built in AWG's are not better or have no those advanced features? Because those are scopes. All those already exists in standalone siggens.
And in order to use them, you need separate instrument, with its own screen, and buttons... Operating scope and AWG at the same time on the same screen is horrible user experience..
That is why scope manufacturers put in those (deliberately) simple AWGs in scopes: they need it for FRA, they don't cost much in BOM, and it makes for nice help in a pinch. And makes them look good in datasheets in this era of "featuritis" wars...
But they will always stay that way, because adding separate, good, clean power for AWG to make output swing at least+-10V, adding second channel and making them synchronised while independent, putting in separate low jitter TCXO, it's own large FPGA ... They simply would have to take complete separate AWG and put it in same case as scope. Together with all hardware and software development and then they have to make kludge of U/I that will share front panel/screen between the two, all that interactively....
And that's a mess.. And it would increase price, to the one of a scope, full AWG and integration. It would actually be more expensive than scope and awg separately..
So scope's AWG will stay simple for a while..
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No need to be snarky..
I'm speaking from position of my experience.. I don't speak from a position of what I like, but what I experienced in practice.
I can't pretend those are universal truth. So hence I use those words.
But, I do have a lot of experience, and work on many different types of projects (customers choose what I do), and I'm sharing that experience with people.
......
And it would increase price, to the one of a scope, full AWG and integration. It would actually be more expensive than scope and awg separately..
So scope's AWG will stay simple for a while..
And no need to man-splain it any further. I also have 20+ years of experience, but don't tell people what they don't need or want.
But you still don't get, that nobody wants to increase the price of the scope. I just wish Siglent would make the software features worth the price of the siggen license. And some other companies (e.g. R&S) have shown it does not need to be a "horrible user experience" (although some people probably still think so...).
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I just wish Siglent would make the software features worth the price of the siggen license.
:-//
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e1464-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e1464-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/)
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R&S has more of a marketing approach: Lets see what gizmos can we add that will not cost much in BOM and they will be nice to see on datasheet, so we have "more stuff" than competition.. That is fine, but in practice, as I explained before, not necessarily very useful in real life. And you paid for it. You want for Siglent to give you all that development for free, but R&S made you pay for that additional AWG development through higher base price of instrument (and license to enable it), whether you use it or not.
I have to disagree here. The waveform generator in the R&S RTM3004 (and probably the RTB2004 as well because it is closely related) is very useful. Yes, the amplitude is limited but it still allows to do an awful lot before you need an external function generator. IOW: it doesn't run out of steam that quickly with 10Vpp into a high-z load. Sure it costs extra for the hardware but it is not like it is useless if you get it as part of a package deal.
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And no need to man-splain it any further. I also have 20+ years of experience, but don't tell people what they don't need or want.
I disagree, you are doing just that, you just don't like that I think you're wrong. I also explained exactly why I'm advocating my stance..
I don't have a problem that you think differently. It's just not everybody thinks the same. I just represent that other group, you 're not a part of.. It's sort of balanced thing.
We both are right for our standpoint. Professionals will know better than blindly trust you or me.. Beginners might see it's not that simple, see different opinions, and maybe recognize themselves in examples and draw parallels. And maybe make better decision.
But you still don't get, that nobody wants to increase the price of the scope. I just wish Siglent would make the software features worth the price of the siggen license. And some other companies (e.g. R&S) have shown it does not need to be a "horrible user experience" (although some people probably still think so...).
And you failed to respect that our Chinese colleagues don't work for free, and that they gave you siggen worth the price. It is much cheaper than RTB2000, so simpler AWG, and effort went to make great scope.
If you wanted to get same features on SDS2000X+ it would have to be more expensive. Developing features takes time and money, even in China.
R&S charges you much more money for it, it should be much better than it is..
Siglent SDS2104X Plus is 1400 € with full option (no hacking), R&S® RTB2K-104 is 2600€ +560€ siggen .. Despite that huge price difference, scope part on Siglent is on par with R&S....
So you either expect Siglent to give even more for less than half of the money... For 560€ siggen price of license you can buy great external AWG plus SDS2104X+ and still have 500€ left...
That is what I have in mind...
Best regards,
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Think having a moderately capable AWG available within the DSO can be handy sometimes. Certainly useful for the nice built-in Bode Plots, however many occasions require more capability that an In-DSO AWG can provide.
Here's an example of a test we needed to make on a Successive Detection Log Amp when driven by a pulsed RF input waveform. The In-DSO AWG with the SDS2102X Plus doesn't have the capability to produce pulsed RF and analog waveforms, so we utilized the SDG2042X which does. Since I didn't have a power supply readily available we used the second channel to power the DUT using the DC output at 9V from the 2nd channel :)
AWG second channels can come in handy in many ways if they can support a higher output voltage (and current). ;)
The input to the Log Amp has a 30dB attenuator in front and the Log Amp has a scale factor of 37.5mv/dB. The SDG2042 conveniently has a dBm scale which made stepping the input power in 10dB steps easy, from -40 to +10dBm. Since the Log Amp has a 30dB attenuator in front the input is from -70 to -20dBm, it has an intercept of -88.3dBM and a range of over 80dB. The RF input is selected to provide 20 cycles at 10MHz with a 10ms repeat period.
[attachimg=1]
Anyway, having an In-DSO AWG is very handy, we've used it many times, but it can't replace a quality full-functioned AWG for more involved testing. So have your cake and eat it too with and internal and external AWG (use the wonderful help function here on EEVBlog if you are a hobbiest to keep the cost down :)
BTW we even use the cheap Juntek Dual Channel DPA-1698 to bump the 2042X AWG outputs to 40VPP @1amp, although the BW is limited to 100KHz. It's noisy but can be a Poor Mans Programmable PS or higher power LF (noisy) AWG in a pinch (stepper motor drive).
Best,
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I also have 20+ years of experience
And mine is bigger than the others... 8)
For me, internal awgs are too weak what output amplitude concerns, in general.
It´s easy to say, well then use an additional amplifier - So I got a second, external unit on the bench - What is the difference having this in an external awg.. ???
A few months ago, I´ve bought a siglent 2-ch awg with max 20Vpp and two channels and (now... ;) ) 60Mhz bandwith.
It can do much more than other internal awgs and got better specs also - And costs appx around 300 bucks.
So I give a s*** on the int. awg and don´t care about the very rudimental (siglent internal awg) functions.
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SDS2104X freshly received, all good but one minor detail - the select and level (small) rotational knobs are annoyingly behaving like contaminated with particles, something rubbing and scratching around when turned. I have not seen this from other Siglent equipment. Scope cal sheet says it is from the end of 09.2020. Anyone else has noticed similar? (And yes, yes, princess and the pea syndrome...) ???
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R&S has more of a marketing approach: Lets see what gizmos can we add that will not cost much in BOM and they will be nice to see on datasheet, so we have "more stuff" than competition.. That is fine, but in practice, as I explained before, not necessarily very useful in real life. And you paid for it. You want for Siglent to give you all that development for free, but R&S made you pay for that additional AWG development through higher base price of instrument (and license to enable it), whether you use it or not.
I have to disagree here. The waveform generator in the R&S RTM3004 (and probably the RTB2004 as well because it is closely related) is very useful. Yes, the amplitude is limited but it still allows to do an awful lot before you need an external function generator. IOW: it doesn't run out of steam that quickly with 10Vpp into a high-z load. Sure it costs extra for the hardware but it is not like it is useless if you get it as part of a package deal.
And same thing with MSOX3000T siggen. It is quite capable, I got it for free as a part of bundle, and although it's there, I use it only in occasions I mentioned.
I mentioned that you can do quite a lot with them, and that any gen is better than nothing. But I wouldn't ever buy it as an option because I can get one helluva AWG for the money.
SDS2000X+ siggen is simpler because it was deliberate design decision to give you better oscilloscope for less money. If they would remove the control of AWG completely and use it only for FRA, and dropping price another 200 € that would sell even better. I guarantee.
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SDS2104X freshly received, all good but one minor detail - the select and level (small) rotational knobs are annoyingly behaving like contaminated with particles, something rubbing and scratching around when turned. I have not seen this from other Siglent equipment. Scope cal sheet says it is from the end of 09.2020. Anyone else has noticed similar? (And yes, yes, princess and the pea syndrome...) ???
Just pull the encoder knobs off and check for shaft clearance against the case. It may be the knobs have been pressed on too far or the shafts are a tad too short in which case pack the inside of the knob so the knob doesn't press fully home.
Please report what you find.
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R&S has more of a marketing approach: Lets see what gizmos can we add that will not cost much in BOM and they will be nice to see on datasheet, so we have "more stuff" than competition.. That is fine, but in practice, as I explained before, not necessarily very useful in real life. And you paid for it. You want for Siglent to give you all that development for free, but R&S made you pay for that additional AWG development through higher base price of instrument (and license to enable it), whether you use it or not.
I have to disagree here. The waveform generator in the R&S RTM3004 (and probably the RTB2004 as well because it is closely related) is very useful. Yes, the amplitude is limited but it still allows to do an awful lot before you need an external function generator. IOW: it doesn't run out of steam that quickly with 10Vpp into a high-z load. Sure it costs extra for the hardware but it is not like it is useless if you get it as part of a package deal.
And same thing with MSOX3000T siggen. It is quite capable, I got it for free as a part of bundle, and although it's there, I use it only in occasions I mentioned.
I mentioned that you can do quite a lot with them, and that any gen is better than nothing. But I wouldn't ever buy it as an option because I can get one helluva AWG for the money.
I tend to disagree. A good, reliable (as in 'works as expected') AWG sets you back several k€ and you'll still be below 30MHz.
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the select and level (small) rotational knobs are annoyingly behaving like contaminated with particles, something rubbing and scratching around when turned.
Can confirm this..
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Ah, ok, so this is the age old case of cheap rotary encoders used (button caps are placed at correct depth). So, does the front panel come off without desoldering the input stage BNC jacks so the damn encoders can be changed for good ones? >:D
(And does the 5000 series have same problem?)
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I tend to disagree. A good, reliable (as in 'works as expected') AWG sets you back several k€ and you'll still be below 30MHz.
Yes, you do tend to disagree... :-DD
By the same token, and by same logic, good scope starts at 20000€ and anything else is just toys and cheap crap.
So we made a leap from a statement that basic internal AWG in a scope is good enough for most uses to statement that you need to pay more than 3000 € for a usable AWG, and everything cheaper is unusable, unreliable crap...
I'm a bit confused, which one is right? Because they kind of contradict each other.
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Ah, ok, so this is the age old case of cheap rotary encoders used (button caps are placed at correct depth).
So nothing visibly rubbing that you can see ?
So, does the front panel come off without desoldering the input stage BNC jacks so the damn encoders can be changed for good ones? >:D
I don't have a Plus here ATM and haven't noticed any issues with encoders on any that have now gone onto customers. More due soon and before they go out the door I compensate all probes so will check if this is 'one off' problem you have....but not for a couple of weeks after they arrive.
AFAIK encoders are on the front panel and to access it the mainboard and chassis need be removed where there are hidden screws behind the front panel decal and it's possible you will damage the labelling removing the decal. BNC's are nut fixed to the chassis so no desoldering is required.
(And does the 5000 series have same problem?)
Not that I've ever noticed. :-//
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Ah, ok, so this is the age old case of cheap rotary encoders used (button caps are placed at correct depth). So, does the front panel come off without desoldering the input stage BNC jacks so the damn encoders can be changed for good ones? >:D
(And does the 5000 series have same problem?)
Had to disassemble our entire SDS2102X Plus due to an unfortunate accident, not Siglent related. This requires no soldering, but does require carefully removing the front label that covers the input BNC connectors area. There are 3 bolts behind this label that must be removed before the front cover will come off. Be very careful removing the label, easily damaged. Of course you must also remove everything from the backside and into the interior, not hard or risky just be careful.
Although not an adventure planned, did take the time to check out the Siglent quality and design of the DSO from the inside. Very pleased with what was found, very high quality design, assembly and construction.
So bad news we had to completely disassemble our new DSO, good news it's back to working and impressed with what we found. Working is an understatement, as it's been enabled & expanded with every feature and 500MHz (measured 615MHz) BW with the kind help of folks here :-+
Best,
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Heatgun to the label area at around 100c helps with peeling. Despite the less than shiny spots here and there, I have to say I am impressed by the general build - must-have-Lecroy-at-home itch is weakening greatly. Btw, seems PWM fan could be used as there is 4 pin header there, not sure if anything is controlling it though.
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I tend to disagree. A good, reliable (as in 'works as expected') AWG sets you back several k€ and you'll still be below 30MHz.
By the same token, and by same logic, good scope starts at 20000€ and anything else is just toys and cheap crap.
Now you are spouting nonsense. Your claim is that 500 euro buys you a very good AWG. But from my experience I know that isn't true. I have tested (nearly) all of the function generators in this price class and they all have shortcomings one way or another. Basically the only advantage is a higher output level compared to the AWGs built into the R&S scopes. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
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I tend to disagree. A good, reliable (as in 'works as expected') AWG sets you back several k€ and you'll still be below 30MHz.
By the same token, and by same logic, good scope starts at 20000€ and anything else is just toys and cheap crap.
Now you are spouting nonsense. Your claim is that 500 euro buys you a very good AWG. But from my experience I know that isn't true. I have tested (nearly) all of the function generators in this price class and they all have shortcomings one way or another. Basically the only advantage is a higher output level compared to the AWGs built into the R&S scopes. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
Here quick data about R&S® RTM-B6 Waveform Generator. For RTM3004 scope.
If forget it have Pattern generator also then it have just 1 channel simple generator.
This option price label is EUR 700 VAT0.
Everyone can then think what is what...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1130570;image)
But yes it have letters R&S.
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I disagree, you are doing just that, you just don't like that I think you're wrong. I also explained exactly why I'm advocating my stance..
...
And you failed to respect that our Chinese colleagues don't work for free, and that they gave you siggen worth the price. It is much cheaper than RTB2000, so simpler AWG, and effort went to make great scope.
If you wanted to get same features on SDS2000X+ it would have to be more expensive. Developing features takes time and money, even in China.
Where did I tell people what they don't want?
You are putting words in my mouth. Your logic can extent to all features people wish for in these threads - but your wishes are apparently more respectful wishes...
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BTW we even use the cheap Juntek Dual Channel DPA-1698 to bump the 2042X AWG outputs to 40VPP @1amp, although the BW is limited to 100KHz. It's noisy but can be a Poor Mans Programmable PS or higher power LF (noisy) AWG in a pinch (stepper motor drive).
Great tip :-+ What noise levels are we talking about?
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I tend to disagree. A good, reliable (as in 'works as expected') AWG sets you back several k€ and you'll still be below 30MHz.
By the same token, and by same logic, good scope starts at 20000€ and anything else is just toys and cheap crap.
Now you are spouting nonsense. Your claim is that 500 euro buys you a very good AWG. But from my experience I know that isn't true. I have tested (nearly) all of the function generators in this price class and they all have shortcomings one way or another. Basically the only advantage is a higher output level compared to the AWGs built into the R&S scopes. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
Like Vestom said to me, you are putting words in my mouth.
Where did I say that 500€ buys you very good AWG ? I said that 1000 € (i added it for you, price of more expensive scope and license, it's actually more but let's say 1000€ )
So I said that 1000 € buys you much better AWG than even one in RTB2000, or Keysight MSOX3000T.
You are saying that siggen in RTB2000 is better than Siglent SDG1000X/SDG2000X, or Rigol DG800/900. Or even that cute little UNI-T UTG932/UTG962.
I disagree.
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You are saying that siggen in RTB2000 is better than Siglent SDG1000X/SDG2000X,
I disagree.
30 MHz 14 bit 2ch $ 319 or 40 MHz 16 bit 2ch $ 499
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Where did I tell people what they don't want?
You are putting words in my mouth. Your logic can extent to all features people wish for in these threads - but your wishes are apparently more respectful wishes...
You did. I don't put words in your mouth. I just untangle them so you can't play little word games.
You said that you want SDS2000X+ to have same siggen as RTB2000 despite being much cheaper. All for the same money. So you want them to work more for much less money..
That is the meaning of your words.
"Where did I tell people what they don't want? "
What does that even mean... ?
I'm fed up that you keep picking 2 words out of my posts and then attacking them semantically, completely out of context.
So here, again, and for the last time:
- if you have to pay for it, all built in AWGs are bad value for money, except for FRA (which most of them do as a part or FRA license ), or easy quick and dirty replay of waveforms. They are very expensive for what that give you otherwise.
- they are good for salespeople for easy demos, and also for teaching environments, because they are already there and for simple things they are good enough.
- They are infinitely better than nothing, and you can do lots of stuff with them. I use them occasionally, when handy.
- They are generally not worth the money, if you have to pay for them (if you didn't get them for free or as part of bundle where price gets diluted). For the same amount of money you can buy standalone AWG that will be much better.
- Expecting that much cheaper instrument have same features is silly. They have to make some simplifications to keep the price down. And they simplified AWG which is right choice for a scope as a primary instrument. Unlike Rigol, that actually has much better AWG (for starters it is 2ch so better from the start), but has inferior FRA, inferior frontend (both noise and sensitivity), not very good implementation of Hires mode etc.. Those are bad priorities for a scope... Expecting that Chinese will work for free, while defending R&S charging you 1000s of € for the same thing, is some kind of bias. Let's not call it any names, but it is a unfair bias..
- Again, in the base price of scope, and AWG license alone, RTB2000 with 100 MHz bandwidth is more than 1000 € more expensive than SDS2104X+ with all licenses included. For the price difference, SDS2000X+ will get you one comparable scope with built in simpler siggen, and one standalone AWG. Or maybe even TWO....
So yeah, Siglent made better compromises and price optimisations for a scope.
- Separate AWG is more versatile. You can have two people working on something, one using scope, other one AWG..
- With Siglent, fact that AWG is separate is actually not a problem. They made integration between scope and external AWG, it works quite well, and you can run FRA with external AWG. I don't think R&S has same function. That is a great feature..
So if you don't care about money, you buy whatever you like.
In which case none of my comments are important.
If you have limited budget, you need to look for what is good value for money. And that includes hidden costs.
All that said, built in AWGs in scopes are usually bad value for money. If you got them for free, by all means, enjoy. But if you need to pay for them full price (and or hidden cost) than they are economically bad choice because they are (at the moment) inferior to what you can buy standalone for the price of options..
None of those are my opinions, those are simple and verifiable facts...
Best regards to all.
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And mine is bigger than the others... 8)
For me, internal awgs are too weak what output amplitude concerns, in general.
It´s easy to say, well then use an additional amplifier - So I got a second, external unit on the bench - What is the difference having this in an external awg.. ???
A few months ago, I´ve bought a siglent 2-ch awg with max 20Vpp and two channels and (now... ;) ) 60Mhz bandwith.
It can do much more than other internal awgs and got better specs also - And costs appx around 300 bucks.
So I give a s*** on the int. awg and don´t care about the very rudimental (siglent internal awg) functions.
Big egos, small... 8)
Yeah, the SDGs are great buys - and I can certainly see the value in 20Vpp and two channels! The funny thing is, that the HW specs for the SDGs otherwise match the spec for the SDS siggen pretty closely: 14-bit, 125/150 MSps, 50/60 MHz, -40dBc distortion, 16ks waveform...
But wishing for Siglent to port some of the software features from their 300 bucks full two channel generator unit to their 200 bucks single channel software option is apparently disrespectful...
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Big egos, small... 8)
Yes, we can see that's your way of thinking... That's OK, thanks for sharing. That will never change the facts..
Yeah, the SDGs are great buys - and I can certainly see the value in 20Vpp and two channels! The funny thing is, that the HW specs for the SDGs otherwise match the spec for the SDS siggen pretty closely: 14-bit, 125/150 MSps, 50/60 MHz, -40dBc distortion, 16ks waveform...
But wishing for Siglent to port some of the software features from their 300 bucks full two channel generator unit to their 200 bucks single channel software option is apparently disrespectful...
No, it is expecting to port 1000€ R&S features to Siglent scope for free.... That is what are you comparing.
AWG on SDS2000X+ is free...
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All these options are free now. Yes it is informed it continue limited time to 31.Mar.2021
And previously we have seen how Siglent promotional offers have gone.....
SDS2000XP-IIS: Decode I2S digital audio signals
SDS2000XP -FlexRay: Analyze Serial Flexray encoded signals
SDS2000XP -1553B: Decode Mil-1553B serial communications
SDS2000XP -CANFD: Analyze CANFD serial signals
SDS2000XP -PA: Power Analysis activation license
SDS2000XP -FG: Built-in 50 MHz arbitrary/function waveform generator
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AWG on SDS2000X+ is free...
Uhm, no - not for us that have already bought the scope. Thats is a "simple and verifiable fact" ;D
- I have to either pay 200 bucks to get it - and it seems we agree (I think) that is bad value compared to buying a standalone HW unit. Especially since it is so lacking in software features...
- Or, I will have to hack the scope - which would be "disrespectful and expecting the Chinese to work for free" ;)
:popcorn:
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2N3055, you are looking for face palm smiley,
hope it helps
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2N3055, you are looking for face palm smiley,
hope it helps
^-^
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AWG on SDS2000X+ is free...
Uhm, no - not for us that have already bought the scope. Thats is a "simple and verifiable fact" ;D
- I have to either pay 200 bucks to get it - and it seems we agree (I think) that is bad value compared to buying a standalone HW unit. Especially since it is so lacking in software features...
- Or, I will have to hack the scope - which would be "disrespectful and expecting the Chinese to work for free" ;)
:popcorn:
Thank you for that explanation, yes, you understood right, I would tell you not to pay for AWG option, but to rather give few € more and buy SDG1000X for both standalone and FRA with integration. You can also use internal gen with FRA without AWG license..
None of manufacturers will give you access to licenses that are part of current promotion, to old customers that bought instrument when promotion didn't exist. That goes in the other way too, when R&S did a promotion where they sold fully loaded 350 MHz RTB2000 for 2100 USD in US for a short time, and then reverted back to higher prices.
Sometimes manufacturers decide to make some options part of base package, and they start pushing them in base firmware. Keysight did that many times for some products, Rigol did, Siglent did, GW Instek did, many others did.
SDS2000X+ has not been blessed with that gift yet.
I never endorsed hacking the scope, all my comparisons compare retail prices and legal promos. But it surely is less damage for them for occasional user hacking the scope, for current work that is already made and amortized partially, or expect them to do additional work for something that should be no financial gain for sure, from the start..
I'm sure that they might be adding the features to stay competitive, once competition start upping features a drop prices.. Maybe they will realize giving up AWG free will up the sales more than it would be loss..
I don't know.
But if they decide to spend time developing features, there are many features that are larger priority, all mentioned by many users here:
- NctNico would like better memory control. After long argument, we all agreed that it would be good to give user control of that and would be beneficial to many users.
- Maybe decoding outside screen boundaries, from full memory?
- Search on serial protocols - that is important feature. Also from segments/history
- FRA needs polishing.
- FFT needs polishing.
- Zoom mode should have user configuration of primary/zoom window, preferably to the point of overview window being as small as possible, to maximize detail window..
- Statistics for mask mode
etc etc..
Once Siglent makes all that, if they have nothing better to do, I don't mind they upgrading AWG, and make it free...
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BTW we even use the cheap Juntek Dual Channel DPA-1698 to bump the 2042X AWG outputs to 40VPP @1amp, although the BW is limited to 100KHz. It's noisy but can be a Poor Mans Programmable PS or higher power LF (noisy) AWG in a pinch (stepper motor drive).
Great tip :-+ What noise levels are we talking about?
With input shorted I measure ~20mvpp and ~2.5mv SD. Has a 2X gain that measures 1.997 V/V with a shorted input offset of ~6.5mv. Max output is claimed to 40vpp which has been verified, although the 1a max current is optimistic more like ~630ma before the overload trips and shuts the amp down.
Best,
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I tend to disagree. A good, reliable (as in 'works as expected') AWG sets you back several k€ and you'll still be below 30MHz.
By the same token, and by same logic, good scope starts at 20000€ and anything else is just toys and cheap crap.
Now you are spouting nonsense. Your claim is that 500 euro buys you a very good AWG. But from my experience I know that isn't true. I have tested (nearly) all of the function generators in this price class and they all have shortcomings one way or another. Basically the only advantage is a higher output level compared to the AWGs built into the R&S scopes. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
$499 buys you a SDG2042X that's a pretty good dual channel with 1.2GSPS 16bit DAC AWG IMO. :popcorn:
Best,
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I tend to disagree. A good, reliable (as in 'works as expected') AWG sets you back several k€ and you'll still be below 30MHz.
By the same token, and by same logic, good scope starts at 20000€ and anything else is just toys and cheap crap.
Now you are spouting nonsense. Your claim is that 500 euro buys you a very good AWG. But from my experience I know that isn't true. I have tested (nearly) all of the function generators in this price class and they all have shortcomings one way or another. Basically the only advantage is a higher output level compared to the AWGs built into the R&S scopes. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
Like Vestom said to me, you are putting words in my mouth.
Where did I say that 500€ buys you very good AWG ? I said that 1000 € (i added it for you, price of more expensive scope and license, it's actually more but let's say 1000€ )
These are your own words from a few posts back:
For 560€ siggen price of license you can buy great external AWG plus SDS2104X+ and still have 500€ left...
From my own testing it has become clear to me that this isn't true. The Siglent SDG2000X series is the best of the lot but it still suffers from accumulating rounding errors in the modulation part. And then there is Siglent's Easywave software which I prefer to forget about.
@rf-loop: on R&S scopes the waveform generator is part of a very nicely priced option bundle so the price is much lower than 700 euro.
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@rf-loop: on R&S scopes the waveform generator is part of a very nicely priced option bundle so the price is much lower than 700 euro.
Bundle which cost 1250 €....
So your idea of saving is to pay even more....
As for what I said, you went trough 10-15 of my posts to find one sentence to twist it and to catch on.
You know damn well what I wanted to say. I explained it in dozen of posts.
I don't write formal language for compiler. I expect reader to understand context.
I'm not defending myself in a court...
It is a great AWG for the money. Is that better?
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And then there is Siglent's Easywave software which I prefer to forget about.
Maybe you haven't yet tried the new EasyWaveX ? :-//
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@rf-loop: on R&S scopes the waveform generator is part of a very nicely priced option bundle so the price is much lower than 700 euro.
Bundle which cost 1250 €....
So your idea of saving is to pay even more....
No. It just comes with the bundle for free from both R&S and Siglent. :palm:
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@rf-loop: on R&S scopes the waveform generator is part of a very nicely priced option bundle so the price is much lower than 700 euro.
Bundle which cost 1250 €....
So your idea of saving is to pay even more....
No. It just comes with the bundle for free from both R&S and Siglent. :palm:
Siglent bundle is free at the moment even with base scope.
With R&S you need to buy 3930€ COM4 version or pay 1496€ for bundle. There is nothing free there..
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Right, actually batronix offer them without a bundle for free- therefore the sig gen only license will cost 568€ incl. VAT, the all in bundle 1496€
568€ for a one channel AWG....
Apart from this I would like to have the discussion about sense or nonsense of inbuilt awgs separated from here, because it´s a general thing...
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Still...... we must thank nctnico for continually bumping this thread about Siglents new offering that challenges all comers in this price class of upper entry level and semipro scopes.
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Right, actually batronix offer them without a bundle for free- therefore the sig gen only license will cost 568€ incl. VAT, the all in bundle 1496€
568€ for a one channel AWG....
Apart from this I would like to have the discussion about sense or nonsense of inbuilt awgs separated from here, because it´s a general thing...
You're right, I agree. I got carried away, sorry..
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I'm obviously responding to something that is rather old, but I can't help myself. :)
But it still needs the zoom crutch. Everyone can walk faster without a crutch.
What you call a "crutch", others clearly consider to be an advantage.
The scope decodes everything in the capture (subject to the limitations that were mentioned).
One capability that the Siglent approach has which other scopes might not have (and I can't say whether they have it or not. The Rigol DS-1054Z certainly doesn't) is to make it possible to place the trigger point outside of the captured area. From what I can tell, you can place the trigger point an arbitrary amount of time prior to the capture, and up to the right edge of the screen, which is the end of the capture buffer.
Also decoding only what is on screen gives you the problem that it is nearly impossible to correlate messages which may be in different parts of the acquisition memory. Get a Keysight or R&S scope on your bench and see how easy it is to be able to go through the entire record with timestamps relative to each packet.
In light of zoom mode, this deserves some explanation. Exactly what are you referring to here? What sort of correlation are you talking about? In the Siglent, cursors can be placed anywhere within the capture -- they aren't limited to the zoomed portion of the screen. This makes it possible to see the relative distance between any two portions of the capture.
Same for the automatic memory length. For the millionth time: limiting the memory size to the visible screen only is a serious productivity limitation. There is no arguing around that other than using yet another crutch (going back & forth between time/div settings). Everyone can walk faster without a crutch.
I'm sure it's a productivity limitation for some and a productivity enhancement for others. With the approach Siglent is taking, you always know exactly what you're getting. There is absolutely no ambiguity, no guesswork involved, no off the cuff computation required. The time captured is the time represented by the screen, period.
There is one disadvantage to Siglent's approach, and it can be a significant one: the mask test operates only on the full screen, and will not operate in zoom mode. This means that mask testing cannot be applied to a subset of the capture the way it is on other scopes, and this means you can't have it stop the scope upon failure and then examine some other portion of the waveform that is off-screen. This would be easy enough for Siglent to fix: they'd merely need to make it possible to define and operate the mask against the zoomed portion of the screen.
Remember I used to own an SDS2000 and the automatic memory selection annoyed the hell out of me.
Yeah, but you're used to using scopes that don't operate the way the Siglent does, right? How much of your annoyance is the result of what you're used to, versus the actual requirements of operating the scope?
Reasoning that none of the customers has asked for it is more indicative of the kind of customers Siglent has than automatic memory selection should be standard. Power users like me that need to have an oscilloscope which works efficiently will ask for it (or silently just don't buy the oscilloscopes from Siglent). Siglent has come a long way in the past few years and now they really have to start addressing the productivity issues (at least on the higher end models) in order to really compete with the A-brands.
I would argue that, at the very least, it should be an option -- make it possible for the user to choose whether to use the remaining memory for the automatic capture history or for the capture itself. Nothing in principle prevents Siglent from making both approaches possible.
In any case, save for the mask test issue, the approach Siglent has taken here is just different. It doesn't seem to be any worse or better as an objective matter (again, save for the mask test), only in terms of the specific use pattern that a given user brings to the table. In your case, your use pattern is such that Siglent's approach isn't the right one. But then, if zoom mode were your default use mode, that might change. Can't say on that.
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I'm obviously responding to something that is rather old, but I can't help myself. :)
But it still needs the zoom crutch. Everyone can walk faster without a crutch.
What you call a "crutch", others clearly consider to be an advantage.
The scope decodes everything in the capture (subject to the limitations that were mentioned).
One capability that the Siglent approach has which other scopes might not have (and I can't say whether they have it or not. The Rigol DS-1054Z certainly doesn't) is to make it possible to place the trigger point outside of the captured area. From what I can tell, you can place the trigger point an arbitrary amount of time prior to the capture, and up to the right edge of the screen, which is the end of the capture buffer.
If your reference point is a DS-1054Z then you have a boat load of catching up to do. None of the features on Siglent scopes are special in any way compared to their mainstream competitors. The rest has already been debated so I urge you to just read some other threads and look at Dave's 'zoom out' video.
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Hi,
and look at Dave's 'zoom out' video.
And see what ?
Won´t we let this thing in the suitable thread ?
As I wrote months ago, siglent has this memory thing on the list, with low priority, which I really appreciate.
Because it IS very low priority.
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If your reference point is a DS-1054Z then you have a boat load of catching up to do.
It's not my "reference point", it's just a scope that I happen to have access to. It's why I worded things the way I did.
None of the features on Siglent scopes are special in any way compared to their mainstream competitors.
Not even the "always on" history?
The rest has already been debated so I urge you to just read some other threads and look at Dave's 'zoom out' video.
Dave has quite a few videos. Can you provide a link to the video you're referring to?
I'm fully aware that you can't "zoom out" with the Siglent, due to the way it operates. But "zoom out" in the main capture window immediately after capture just means that you're not seeing everything in the capture in the first place. Maybe that matters and maybe it doesn't. Seems like that would depend entirely on the use case, no?
As I said, I do think it would be useful for Siglent to let the user choose whether to use the remainder of memory for the capture history or to use it for additional captured time before and/or after the visible window. But save for the effect on the mask test feature, I've not seen any argument that Siglent's approach is a functional showstopper. That said, I've certainly not read everything that has been said on the subject (not even in this thread -- I'm working on that), so that I've not seen such an argument doesn't mean it hasn't been made. Feel free to make such an argument here, now, if you're so inclined -- I'd be very interested in hearing it.
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If your reference point is a DS-1054Z then you have a boat load of catching up to do.
It's not my "reference point", it's just a scope that I happen to have access to. It's why I worded things the way I did.
None of the features on Siglent scopes are special in any way compared to their mainstream competitors.
Not even the "always on" history?
Yup. Standard on Yokogawa oscilloscopes for ages.
The rest has already been debated so I urge you to just read some other threads and look at Dave's 'zoom out' video.
Dave has quite a few videos. Can you provide a link to the video you're referring to?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVxDibdosdI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVxDibdosdI)
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Not even the "always on" history?
Yup. Standard on Yokogawa oscilloscopes for ages.
Interesting. Any other brands that have it? I don't know how common Yokogawa scopes are, but they're certainly not a brand most would generally think of immediately when looking for scopes. Pricing information seems to be a little difficult to come by, but it appears that their entry level scope (the DLM3022) commands nearly $4800. :o
So while Siglent's "always on" history isn't unique, if Yokogawa is the only other manufacturer that has it, then Siglent is in a league of its own with respect to offering this feature in the market segment it plays in.
Dave has quite a few videos. Can you provide a link to the video you're referring to?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVxDibdosdI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVxDibdosdI)
Awesome. Thanks!
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I haven't seen anyone else address this, so ...
One example: a while ago I had to debug a SoC design and wanted to check the CPU's core voltage because every now and then it would crash. For that I wanted to see what happened to the core voltage when it is switched. One channel on the signal to the regulator and one on the core voltage. Trigger set to the control signal and go. No idea on what timescale the event is taking place. Turned out that I choose the time/div too short so I couldn't see the entire event where the supply voltage dropped for a while. Since the oscilloscope I used (RTM3004) was on maximum memory depth I could simply turn the time/div / horizontal position knobs to get more signal. From that single capture I had all the information needed to see what the exact problem was even though I had no idea about what I was going to look for. Recapturing the event on a different time/div setting would have meant waiting for another crash to happen.
Then you got lucky. You got lucky because it just happened that the supply voltage drop happened within the time window that your scope was able to record with its memory.
With the Siglent, you would know whether or not you've got the scope configured in such a way as to capture both the core voltage event and the control signal trigger event, assuming that the scope would be capable of doing it at all, because as long as you know the characteristics of the core voltage event, you could set the memory depth to maximum, set the timebase such that the samples per second is still high enough to capture the essence of the core voltage signal (the trigger mechanism apparently always runs at maximum sample rate, so triggering on the control signal would never be a problem), shift the capture view to move the trigger point to the far right, hit "single", and wait. No guessing.
Another example: every now and then there is a problem with an I2C message. In order to see whether a message is correct or not you need to see the part which goes wrong. Once the message is captured turning the time/div / horizontal position knobs can be used to check what happened leading up to the event. Again, it is unknown on what timescale the event is taking place so more memory is better because recapturing the event isn't easy.
Then do something similar to what I stated above. The decoding happens on the entirety of the capture (though it seems to be limited in length). Once you've got a capture, you can do whatever you want with it (though with serial decoding, there seem to be limits in terms of how many things it will decode, so that's a clear limitation that I think needs to be addressed. But that's not a limitation of the capture mechanism, but rather of the decoding mechanism).
It's really when the scope is running and updating the display that having the capture extend beyond the boundaries of the display is a real advantage, at least in any scenario I can think of. Again, the exception is mask testing, where having capture extend beyond the boundaries of the display is a major advantage. Siglent really needs to address that shortcoming, because it's quite significant if you use mask testing to detect faults and need to be able to see what led up to the fault.
Admittedly, the screen can get really busy if you're tracking multiple signals with it. Zoom mode should be configurable in terms of how much real estate the full capture portion occupies, for exactly that reason. But that's not an indictment of the capture approach Siglent is taking here, but rather of the lack of flexibility in their zoom mode.
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Admittedly, the screen can get really busy if you're tracking multiple signals with it. Zoom mode should be configurable in terms of how much real estate the full capture portion occupies, for exactly that reason. But that's not an indictment of the capture approach Siglent is taking here, but rather of the lack of flexibility in their zoom mode.
This can be an issue on a 7" display with a 50/50 split yet far less so with a 10" display and a 25/75 split like SDS2000X Plus and SDS5000X models have......or we can port the display to an even larger one.
Some think this is an issue but there are solutions.
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So while Siglent's "always on" history isn't unique, if Yokogawa is the only other manufacturer that has it, then Siglent is in a league of its own with respect to offering this feature in the market segment it plays in.
Of course one A2 level brand - Rohde@Schwarz - have "perhaps" been the main source of the idea for Siglent.
https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_application/application_notes/1td02/1TD02_0e_RTO_History_Mode.pdf (https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_application/application_notes/1td02/1TD02_0e_RTO_History_Mode.pdf)
There is normal acquisition mode history "stop and rewind" and then Ultra... something like fast sequence in Siglent
Of course they are not similar and not in same ballpark but idea is same.
The Oscilloscope. (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/fr/file/RTO_bro_en_5214-2327-12_v2201.pdf) (pdf)
History function: looking back in time
Where does the interference pulse in the signal come
from? What caused the loss of a data bit? Finding the real
cause of a problem is often only possible by looking at the
history of a signal sequence.
The R&S®RTO history function provides access to previously
acquired waveforms at the press of a button. This allows
users to analyze the measurement data stored in memory.
They can scroll through the individual acquisitions with the
history player or use the persistence mode to display them
superimposed. This powerful function facilitates searches
for signal faults over all acquisitions. One timestamp per
waveform clearly identifies when events took place. Various
analysis tools such as automatic measurements, FFT,
mask tests and a search function are available for analyzing
past acquisitions.
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I haven't seen anyone else address this, so ...
One example: a while ago I had to debug a SoC design and wanted to check the CPU's core voltage because every now and then it would crash. For that I wanted to see what happened to the core voltage when it is switched. One channel on the signal to the regulator and one on the core voltage. Trigger set to the control signal and go. No idea on what timescale the event is taking place. Turned out that I choose the time/div too short so I couldn't see the entire event where the supply voltage dropped for a while. Since the oscilloscope I used (RTM3004) was on maximum memory depth I could simply turn the time/div / horizontal position knobs to get more signal. From that single capture I had all the information needed to see what the exact problem was even though I had no idea about what I was going to look for. Recapturing the event on a different time/div setting would have meant waiting for another crash to happen.
Then you got lucky. You got lucky because it just happened that the supply voltage drop happened within the time window that your scope was able to record with its memory.
With the Siglent, you would know whether or not you've got the scope configured in such a way as to capture both the core voltage event and the control signal trigger event, assuming that the scope would be capable of doing it at all, because as long as you know the characteristics of the core
There is no guessing involved! At some point you have enough experience to just know if the memory depth is enough or not. Just like you know how far your car will go when the fuel indicator says the tank is half full. And at some point you also acquire the experience to know which tools work with you and which tools work against you.
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I haven't seen anyone else address this, so ...
One example: a while ago I had to debug a SoC design and wanted to check the CPU's core voltage because every now and then it would crash. For that I wanted to see what happened to the core voltage when it is switched. One channel on the signal to the regulator and one on the core voltage. Trigger set to the control signal and go. No idea on what timescale the event is taking place. Turned out that I choose the time/div too short so I couldn't see the entire event where the supply voltage dropped for a while. Since the oscilloscope I used (RTM3004) was on maximum memory depth I could simply turn the time/div / horizontal position knobs to get more signal. From that single capture I had all the information needed to see what the exact problem was even though I had no idea about what I was going to look for. Recapturing the event on a different time/div setting would have meant waiting for another crash to happen.
Then you got lucky. You got lucky because it just happened that the supply voltage drop happened within the time window that your scope was able to record with its memory.
With the Siglent, you would know whether or not you've got the scope configured in such a way as to capture both the core voltage event and the control signal trigger event, assuming that the scope would be capable of doing it at all, because as long as you know the characteristics of the core
There is no guessing involved! At some point you have enough experience to just know if the memory depth is enough or not. Just like you know how far your car will go when the fuel indicator says the tank is half full. And at some point you also acquire the experience to know which tools work with you and which tools work against you.
How and why it helps when part of acquisition is hidden outside of screen. |O |O |O
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How and why it helps when part of acquisition is hidden outside of screen. |O |O |O
I have explained that many time before how and why that speeds up measurements. For my work an oscilloscope which records only enough to fill the screen makes life much harder because making measurements becomes way more tedious. But if you still don't understand it then it is what it is.
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Has anyone tried to plot an I/Q constellation with this scope, in XY mode?
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There is no guessing involved! At some point you have enough experience to just know if the memory depth is enough or not. Just like you know how far your car will go when the fuel indicator says the tank is half full. And at some point you also acquire the experience to know which tools work with you and which tools work against you.
That may be. But it's still a difference between being able to directly see what you're getting and having to infer, whether through experience or other indicators, what you're going to get. And pardon me for being a little blunt, but your own wording suggests that you didn't know whether you were going to get what you wanted, because you said "Turned out that I choose the time/div too short so I couldn't see the entire event where the supply voltage dropped for a while". What else are we to infer but that you used the fact that the capture includes more than what's on the screen as a fallback to save what might otherwise have required you to change the setup and wait for another instance of the problem?
My point clearly isn't that it's impossible to set up a scope with a more traditional acquisition mechanism to capture what you want, only that setting it up for the situation you described is straightforward and clear with Siglent's approach, and thus that the Siglent does not have any notable disadvantages in the situation you were using to illustrate why a more traditional acquisition mechanism is superior. If anything, the Siglent has the advantage there, precisely because it makes it absolutely clear what you're going to get.
How would you perform the equivalent setup with a Keysight Megazoom scope, when it doesn't even tell you anything about the amount of memory that is being used for the capture, in the absence of an enormous amount of experience with it?
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Hm.. I am really surprised that Siglent does not have it. Even my old Rigol DS1102E has the "zoom-out" feature. And I use it quite often - I just set up the horizontal system so I can clearly see what I want, but I know that I have a couple of "screens" on the left and on the right if I need them. And I often go there. At least scroll left/right for about one screen. It's obvious that I can capture at more us/div, stop and then zoom in, but it's not that convenient for me.
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Hi, fast question, it's possible view %THD factor from FFT screen? Tek MDO4104C have this option.
(http://[attachimg=1])
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Hm.. I am really surprised that Siglent does not have it. Even my old Rigol DS1102E has the "zoom-out" feature. And I use it quite often - I just set up the horizontal system so I can clearly see what I want, but I know that I have a couple of "screens" on the left and on the right if I need them. And I often go there. At least scroll left/right for about one screen. It's obvious that I can capture at more us/div, stop and then zoom in, but it's not that convenient for me.
The Siglent approach can certainly be more cumbersome in some cases, to be sure.
I have to wonder how or whether viewpoints on this subject would differ if the earliest DSOs (and, thus, most later ones) had been implemented in the way the current Siglent line is implemented. If people had gotten used to the notion of "what you see is all you get", would they find the alternative "there's more than what you see" approach to be better, or worse?
It's one thing to prefer one thing over another because the first is clearly superior. It's quite another to prefer one thing over another just because of familiarity. As regards this particular characteristic, I don't think either approach is clearly inherently superior -- which one is better just depends on the circumstances. The debate over it probably wouldn't be happening at all otherwise (well, that said, one shouldn't underestimate the ability or willingness of people to debate anything at all! :D ).
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Hi, fast question, it's possible view %THD factor from FFT screen? Tek MDO4104C have this option.
Afaik no, but it´s a nice idea to have this - will put it on the wishlist-thread...
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You dont zoom out on this model by default, you start by zooming in THEN zoom out.
Say you are at 50us but want to see more, if you have zoom kicked on and at 50us with a timebase of 100M Points... you just turn the horizontal dial and... zoom out
cost? screen space of about 1/5th to 1/4th of the viewing area
Is it the best UI? Is it the best to even explain? No.. but it works
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And that's it, thanks Martin :-+ maybe Tautech will speed it up.
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I previously posted a message here about a bug in the SDS-1204X-E serial trigger. Turns out that it wasn't a bug in the trigger at all. I feel rather ashamed of that. Anyway, I've deleted the message, but thought I should at least explain why I did so.
You might be wondering why I posted something about it here. I did so because I thought perhaps the 2000X Plus had the same bug, and was curious if that was the case.
In any case, it was user error (or, rather, failure of the user to manually check the waveform contents to ensure they matched what the decoder was claiming about them). Problem solved. Sorry for wasting people's time on that, however little that might have been ...
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With respect to the use of zoom, on the 1000X-E series, it does not work with the digital channels. Given how the scope works, this is, of course, a massive problem, because it forces one to stop the scope in order to zoom in and look around.
Does the 2000X Plus have this limitation with its digital channels? If not, then that would make it a very tempting upgrade.
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With respect to the use of zoom, on the 1000X-E series, it does not work with the digital channels. Given how the scope works, this is, of course, a massive problem, because it forces one to stop the scope in order to zoom in and look around.
Does the 2000X Plus have this limitation with its digital channels? If not, then that would make it a very tempting upgrade.
SDS5000X doesn't so one would presume 2kX Plus doesn't either but I don't have stock at present to know 100%.
All a 2kX Plus owner need do is press Digital then timebase to enter zoom and in reverse to get back to previous settings.
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Works fine.. and I extensively use it daily
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And here is the original version (https://repl.it/repls/PrettyAbleGuiltware#main.py)
When I go to one of the 'repl.it' sites, I get a message about the repl needing an owner with no apparent way to download the script. How does one go about downloading?
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And here is the original version (https://repl.it/repls/PrettyAbleGuiltware#main.py (https://repl.it/repls/PrettyAbleGuiltware#main.py))
When I go to one of the 'repl.it' sites, I get a message about the repl needing an owner with no apparent way to download the script. How does one go about downloading?
Are you after this? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-hack/msg3323984/#msg3323984 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-hack/msg3323984/#msg3323984)
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Isn't this functionality part of the Power Analyzer ?
User's manual p. 257 mentions THD.
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Are you after this? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-hack/msg3323984/#msg3323984 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-hack/msg3323984/#msg3323984)
Thanks, that is probably all I need. But I'm still curious about accessing the 'repls'.
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So... is the DVM code from 5000 series in there (2000 series) and just a menu option disabled?
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Just got a R&S RTB2004 at work today. I was pleasantly surprised that it boots in about 10s!...
Actually it is interesting to compare it to the SDS2000X+, and I could elaborate on my tests/impressions, if anyone are interested...
Yes! I would be interested - did you get round to posting that comparison anywhere?
R&S’ fully-loaded RTB2K-COM4 offer is quite appealing, and the RTB series seems not only powerful but also seems to have a very well thought-out UI in particular for protocol decoding, which is a priority for me since this is one thing I hate about my DS1054Z.
The SDS2k+ seems to be generally better in the UI regard than the Rigol 5000, but I wonder how it compares to the RTB. The Siglent’s hackability makes the RTB like x3 more expensive for the home-lab, after all.
Therefore I’m really curious about hands-on experience of annoying real-life quirks compared for RTB2k and SDS2k+.
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More than 2 years I have RTB2002 (200MHz with full options + LA) in my homelab and recently purchased SDS2104X + (mainly due to the 4 channels).
To compare briefly:
RTB2000 + (compared to SDS2000Xplus)
- Very high quality of LCD, the viewing angles are large and the resolution is noticeably higher (1280x800 versus 1024x600)
- real 10 bits ADC over the entire band decide when to observe small noisy signals.
- excellent UI an control knobs responsiveness in any mode and any situation. High quality ("stepped") encoders. Very user-friendly and beautiful interface.
- high-quality rendering of the waveforms on the screen, no distortion is visible when changing the scale
- value labels on the grid axes facilitate quick visual assessment of signal parameters
- Built-in AWG with excellent parameters and capabilities
- A advanced "Pattern Generator" very useful in development.
- 1.25Gsamples for Logic Analyzer
RTB2000 - (compared to SDS2000Xplus)
- Not hackable! (the main disadvantage of these devices, all option very expencive! :)
- weak math (in the latest firmware version it was improved)
- few kinds of decoders (I2C, SPI, UART, CAN, LIN) and only 2 data signals can be decoded at the same time
- few types of triggers
- no 50Ω inputs and automatic probe attenuation detection
SDS2000X Plus + (comparatively RTB2000)
- A large number of triggers with broad capabilities
- A huge number of protocol decoders with a large number of settings
- 50Ω and automatic detection of probe attenuation
- Ability of arbitrary choice the colors for all types of waveforms (for me, as somewhat color blind, this is a very important option, on RTB2000 it is difficult for me to distinguish between yellow and green colors of channels traces - thanks to Siglent!)
- An interesting and useful (for some users) power analyze option.
SDS2000X Plus - (Compared to RTB2000)
- The poor quality of LCD, the viewing angles after RTB2000 are depressing, the resolution is lower.
- poor waveforms rendering (distortion when scaling, not very good work of "digital phosphor", there is something to improve)
- good user interface, but the responsiveness of the encoders knobs leaves much to be desired after RTB2000.
- no manual memory management and strange memory management algorithm for the history mode (with continuous loading into memory)
- only 500Msamples for the LA (Siglent, why???)
- weak in capabilities and parameters (no modulation, 125Msamples per second, indistinct ability to load captured waveforms into the AWG) built-in AWG (but only after RTB2000! :)
These are some thoughts after one month of working with SDS2000X Plus and more than 2 years with RTB2002.
The main advantage of R&S devices: there may not be very many functions and options, but everything that is, works flawlessly!
Max.
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For example, video signal on RTB2002 and SDS2104X Plus
(SDS2000X+ screen resolution is scaled to the RTB2002 screen resolution for clarity)
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Intensity grade rendering SDS2000X+ and RTB2002
Pay attention, on the R&S, the grid is as if in front of the screen (as analog oscilloscope) and it can be seen even in the solid areas of the waveform. On the Silglent, the waveform always overlaps the grid.
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Pay attention, on the R&S, the grid is as if in front of the screen (as analog oscilloscope) and it can be seen even in the solid areas of the waveform. On the Silglent, the waveform always overlaps the grid.
::) Interesting detail...
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Wow Max, thanks a lot, your direct comparison based on significant hands-on experience is super-useful!
Can I ask some further details?
RTB2000 + (compared to SDS2000Xplus)
[...]
- real 10 bits ADC over the entire band decide when to observe small noisy signals.
Ah! That is an interesting point indeed, some of my next project ideas will benefit from dynamic range. It's difficult to find system ENOB figures for both scopes though. LeCroy have a "competition comparison" whitepaper (https://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/comparing-high-resolution-oscilloscope-design-approaches-wp.pdf), in which they comment on the RTB series that they...
...are straightforwardly advertised as 10-bit ADC resolution with the implication
that they achieve 10-bit noise performance. They decidedly do not come close to 10-bit noise
performance. In fact, they essentially perform as an 8-bit resolution oscilloscope.
OTOH, the SDS2k+ has the reputation here on the forum to have a comparatively low-noise front-end.
Of course LeCroy dissing the RTB as not worthy of comparison with LeCroy 12-bit scopes is difficult to compare with reports of happy users of a hacked "cheap" (relatively speaking) scope...
Could you give a direct 1:1 comparison like the ones you've done for the video and AM modulation signals, but for eg: 100kHz 5Vpp square wave, with a superimposed 1MHz square wave of 5mVpp, then with 10mVpp, 20mVpp, 40mVpp, 80mVpp?
This way, it will be very easy to see real-world benefits (or lack thereof) of a potentially higher system ENOB of the RTB, without going to the trouble of properly measuring ENOB...
[...]
RTB2000 - (compared to SDS2000Xplus)
- Not hackable! (the main disadvantage of these devices, all option very expencive! :)
Indeed!
Although even the 70MHz 4ch MSO option is already ~3k€, so one would also have to build DIY logic pods. And compared to the list price of the 70MHz 4ch MSO RTB, the current RTB2K-COM4 all-inclusive bundle is a steal.
- weak math (in the latest firmware version it was improved)
Do you miss math functions in practice in the latest firmware? Most advanced stuff I was looking for was there (eg integration), but maybe I missed something. For one project I was looking for an exponential function to gain dynamic range with a log-amp, but that is pretty niche and it's not clear how many bits the math output has anyway. If it is the same as the input waveforms, it wouldn't make sense anyway.
Let's not diverge too OT here though, I've posted a dedicated post with the question about math bit-depth: Scope Math Bit Depth (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/scope-math-bit-depth/)
[...]
The main advantage of R&S devices: there may not be very many functions and options, but everything that is, works flawlessly!
Does this mean also the opposite is true, i.e. the SDS2k+ has annoying bugs and quirks that get on your nerves in practice? (Very subjective, I know - but I'd be interested in your experience!)
I find my DS1054Z quite frustrating, this is a motivator for me to move on after a bunch of years now...
Cheers,
Alex
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Intensity grade rendering SDS2000X+ and RTB2002
I see from your screenshots that you are using АКИП. As I also see, its interface can be changed to English, right? Good news. But do you still have the Russian labels on all front panel controls (like ВЕРТИК)? (or maybe it's possible to purchase АКИП with English labels).
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Does this mean also the opposite is true, i.e. the SDS2k+ has annoying bugs and quirks that get on your nerves in practice?
See here : Bugs and wanted Features (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/msg3035508/#msg3035508)
Nothing really bad... 8)
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Does this mean also the opposite is true, i.e. the SDS2k+ has annoying bugs and quirks that get on your nerves in practice? (Very subjective, I know - but I'd be interested in your experience!)
What annoys me most - is the slow response of the horizontal and vertical scale control knobs. If I quickly turn the knob 4 clicks, for example, I expect the parameter to change for 4 steps. But it really turns out to be 1-2 steps, becouse the processor does not have time to work out a fast encoders turn and skips some steps. If you do not rotate quickly, there is no problem.
Otherwise, most the functionality of the scope, which I tested, works correct.
I can add that, compared to Rigol (I once had 1052, 1074, 2072A), today's Siglent has excellently tested firmware, there are few or no bugs , there are annoying features and imperfections (for example, there is no possibility of decoding 9bits UART, no brightness indicator on screen while you change brightness), but this is already a matter of personal point of view, and can be impruved in next firmware versions.
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I read in another thread that XYZ mode was on the list for the 5000X and might propagate to this series. Can someone comment on the status of this feature?
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XYZ mode
:-// ???
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XYZ mode
:-// ???
As in analog scopes with a Z channel input.
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Z - brightness control channel? Why might this be necessary?
Maybe XYZ is the ability to display 3D oscillograms?
Something similar to this:
(https://i.stack.imgur.com/ORKiT.jpg) ?
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Z - brightness control channel? Why might this be necessary?
Maybe XYZ is the ability to display 3D oscillograms?
Something similar to this:
(https://i.stack.imgur.com/ORKiT.jpg) ?
No. XYZ in analog scope is X-Y with Z as intensity (brightness modulation, used for beam blanking and modulation). You use that to display analog video picture for instance...
I don't remember when was the last time I needed that..
What you show might be more useful... ^-^
Or X-Y combined with time base for waterfall diagram..
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For example, video signal on RTB2002 and SDS2104X Plus
(SDS2000X+ screen resolution is scaled to the RTB2002 screen resolution for clarity)
That's not a realistic comparison. The resolution difference isn't that big, but any time you stretch pixels higher, they will distort. Your comparison automatically degraded the image quality. For a fair comparison, you should have simply left them at their original sizes.
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Screenshots from the RTB2000 there on a scale of 1:1 in that post, below for comparison are screenshots from SDS2000X+ without scale. Nothing has changed, in my opinion.
In addition, the forum engine automatically enlarges the pictures.
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No. XYZ in analog scope is X-Y with Z as intensity (brightness modulation, used for beam blanking and modulation). You use that to display analog video picture for instance...
I don't remember when was the last time I needed that..
I saw a video demonstrating using the z channel to create a marker on another channel. I though it was an interesting application. I wasn't planning on using my 'scope as a spare tv.
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Stumbling over the update list, I guess the next firmware update will come in february... 8)
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Stumbling over the update list, I guess the next firmware update will come in february... 8)
The steady flow of updates, with important feature improvements and additions, is a strong argument in favor of a Siglent 'scope. Gotta love these guys (and gals, of course)!
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I made a quick comparison of SDS2000X+ and RTB2000 for small signals view. The test signal is a 1 kHz square wave with an amplitude of 5V p-p to which a 91kHz triangular signal with an amplitude of 30 mV p-p is mixed.
To begin with, how the test signal is displayed on the screen of both scopes.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Let's see the signal in the usual scale in the zoom mode
SDS2000X+ 8bit mode
[attachimg=3]
SDS2000X+ 10 bit mode
[attachimg=4]
RTB2000 Simple acq. mode
[attachimg=5]
The RTB2000 has an additional easily accessible HiRes mode
RTB2000 HiRes acq. mode
[attachimg=6]
to be continued...
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Let's increase the gain and offset to see the signal in more detail.
SDS2000X+ 8bit mode
[attach=1]
SDS2000X+ 10bit mode
[attach=2]
RTB2000
[attach=3]
Finally, let's see the stretched signal in zoom mode.
SDS2000X+ 8bit mode
[attach=4]
SDS2000X+ 10bit mode
[attach=5]
RTB2000 Simple acq. mode
[attach=6]
RTB2000 HiRes acq. mode
[attach=7]
In my opinion, RTB2000 is better suited for observing small signals due to the hardware 10-bit ADC plus an additional high-resolution mode. (The downside is that HiRes mode only works up to 50μs / div).
SDS2000X+ is not very much inferior to R&H, due to the 10-bit mode, which really works fine. And it is quite possible to observe small signals (several millivolts).
(Sorry for the design, I couldn't insert pictures into the text. Maybe the moderators can help fix this)
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I made a quick comparison of SDS2000X+ and RTB2000 for small signals view. The test signal is a 1 kHz square wave with an amplitude of 5V p-p to which a 91kHz triangular signal with an amplitude of 30 mV p-p is mixed.
Wow, Max, thanks!
This is very useful and helps me a lot in my decision-making process!
In particular the last zoomed side-by-side comparisons of both scopes' normal and HiRes acquisitions are illuminating. Imho, one can see several things very clearly:
- While it's difficult to quantify the gain in ENOB from looking at a picture, the HiRes mode of the SDS2k+ seems to be very useable and effective. Of course, a similar benefit can be had on the RTB2k starting at a higher level.
- BUT: HiRes mode adds averaging and filtering: one can see how the trace becomes thinner in both the SDS2k+ as well as the RTB2k in HiRes mode. This reduction in noise should come at the expense of a reduction in bandwidth - tanstaafl. If your application is fine with this, then HiRes is very useful.
- This is an area where I think the Siglent actually is "lying" a bit compared to the R&S: in the RTB2k, the sample-rate is reported as reduced from 2.5GSa/s to 62.5MSa/s when switching to HiRes (unless you changed something else, but it doesn't seem like it). In contrast, the SDS2k+ happily reports 2.0GSa/s in both normal as well as 10bit mode. Unless 10bit mode works very different than usual HiRes mode, you cannot achieve extra vertical resolution without sacrificing effective sample rate - and the user should be informed about that.
- Both SDS2k+ and RTB2k frontends seem more or less similar in noise, the traces are about equally "fat" in both scopes, both in normal as well as HiRes modes. This matches the measurements in several review videos I've seen, so makes perfect sense. What I find interesting is that the 8bit quantisation on the SDS2k+ is so visible compared to the noise levels
- this must translate into quantisation noise being a significant noise term. In other words, the Siglent's 8bit ADC does not seem to have enough ENOB to make best use of the low-noise frontend, while the R&S' 10bit ADC does.
One more interesting unrelated observation can be gleaned from the second post with the offset applied. The RTB2k's front-end does not seem to tolerate overload from the negative clipping quite as well as the SDS2k+: one can see the signal takes some 50-60us to stabilise to the correct level on the R&S, while on the Siglent it's there right from the start.
Is the RTB's vertical control (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/webhelp/RTB_HTML_UserManual_en/Content/f722081a1dd74a32.htm?Highlight=Vert.%20Position%20Knob) set to "offset", or to "position"?
I'd love to do a system ENOB measurement on both of the scopes, but my home lab's signal generators are by far not performant enough both in frequency as well as SINAD to attempt this. Maybe once I get one of the two scopes, I'll take it to work on a rainy weekend ;-)
BTW, I think it would make sense for you to post this test also in the RTB2000 thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/)- people there will not necessarily find them in the SDS2k+ thread.
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Bandwidth reduction in high resolution mode is declared in both scopes.
For SDS2000X+, this is a bandwidth limitation of up to 100 MHz (from 500 MHz possible). For RTB2000, this is a time base limitation of up to 50 μs / div (with a faster sweep, the HiRes mode is automatically disabled and becomes unavailable in the menu). This is also an indirect bandwidth limitation.
It is worth remembering that for SDS2000X+ the HiRes mode is 10 bits maximum (8 bits by ADC + 2 software), and for RTB 2000 - 12 bits maximum (10 bits by ADC + 2 more bits for software in HiRes mode).
Is the RTB's vertical control set to "offset", or to "position"?
RTB2000 in OFFSET mode, POSITION mode allow 4 div waveform offset only. But imperfectly compensated probe also can give such distortion.
But I also noticed that Siglent allows a greater offset without signal distortion than R&S.
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There is one disadvantage to Siglent's approach, and it can be a significant one: the mask test operates only on the full screen, and will not operate in zoom mode. This means that mask testing cannot be applied to a subset of the capture the way it is on other scopes, and this means you can't have it stop the scope upon failure and then examine some other portion of the waveform that is off-screen. This would be easy enough for Siglent to fix: they'd merely need to make it possible to define and operate the mask against the zoomed portion of the screen.
Have you ever tried it out?
What do you see in the attached screenshot?
;)
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I just picked up my new SDS2104X+ and have a question and a comment.
Has the VNC feature been removed? According to the manual, I set this via:
Utility->System Settings->I/O Settings->VNC Port
No such setting exists. In it's place is USB ID which is not mentioned in the manual. Are there updates to the manual to keep it in sync with firmware updates? Do I need to worry that when I install an update, something might go missing?
I'm put off by the manual. I was trying to figure out how to keep the menus on-screen for more than a few seconds before they close, but could find no mention of this in the manual. Googling, I found a similar feature in the SDS1000CML+ manual so I assumed I must have it as well. I finally stumbled upon it in the display menu (where I started looking), having missed it the first time.
If this and the errors above are indicative of what I can expect from Siglent docs, I guess I'm in for a rough ride. BTW, I love what I've seen in the hardware itself but I expected more from the docs in an instrument in this price range.
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I saw its pid running last i looked, i don't use it so your mileage my vary
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Has the VNC feature been removed? According to the manual, I set this via:
Utility->System Settings->I/O Settings->VNC Port
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<snipped image>
Thank you!
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Well, as some of you are obviously aware by now, I gone and done it. I got myself an SDS2104X Plus. Saelig happened to have them in stock so they shipped immediately, and I managed to get mine right before Christmas. I was so excited to order it after getting my wife's approval that I forgot to get the EEVblog discount code first! :palm: Probably because I don't order test equipment often enough. There's a clear solution to that problem ... :o
I also ordered the MSO option, but that was out of stock so I'm unlikely to receive it for a couple of weeks or so. I was a bit surprised by that. Either it's because there's a relatively high demand for it, or there's so little demand for it that they just don't keep it in stock. I can't tell which.
What a Christmas present!!! Overall, this thing is awesome.
I've been playing around with it the last few days. I managed to run into some responsiveness problems early on (so bad that the scope would only intermittently respond to the run/stop button -- the scope should always respond to that if nothing else), but I can't remember how I had things set up and I've not been able to reproduce the problem since. I did hard boot the scope along with resetting to defaults, and that might have cleared up whatever was causing the problem. If I run into the problem again and find a way to reproduce at will, I'll report it. The scope UI (particularly the run/stop button) should never fail to respond to inputs.
There's a trigger bug in the slope trigger of my SDS-1204X-E. See the discussion on that starting with https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg3357852/#msg3357852. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg3357852/#msg3357852.) It reproduces fairly reliably on my 1204X-E, and HendriXML has managed to reproduce it at will with his scope as well.
It does not reproduce on the 2104X+. I was very happy to see that, obviously.
There are two major limitations arising from Siglent's general approach to capturing ("what you see is all you get") that affect the 1000X-E series and earlier, both having to do with zoom mode. The first is that you can't use zoom mode with the digital channels. The second is that you can't perform mask testing with zoom mode enabled. The former is a problem if you want to monitor a particular time range within the captures on the digital channels (for instance, if you want to watch the decoded output in a particular section of the capture and manually stop the scope when you see it go wrong so that you can examine other parts of the capture). The latter is a clear problem if you want to capture a glitch and then examine the waveform some amount of time before or after the glitch.
The 2000X+ fixes both of those limitations! Needless to say, I'm very pleased about that.
Coming from the 1204X-E, this thing has more capability than you can shake a stick at. The larger display should not be underestimated in its effects on usability. It makes the scope much more pleasant to use. When you're used to interacting with the scope solely through buttons and knobs, being forced to use the touch screen for certain things takes a little getting used to, but it doesn't take all that long. And once you do, you will not want to go back. The touchscreen is clearly superior for entering numbers and letters, and makes operations such as directly setting a timebase much easier.
All is not perfection, of course (it never is).
Movement of traces (by changing the voltage offset, or by changing the trigger time location, or by changing the volts/div or the timebase) should be buttery smooth because doing those things seems to stop the scope in its tracks, but it isn't buttery smooth. Depending on the implementation, this might be as simple as increasing the amount of allowed "dead time" prior to the scope restarting operations once you've stopped moving the controls. But the 1000X-E is more responsive than this scope is, and that's a bit unexpected. The general responsiveness of this scope isn't terrible, mind you, and in fact it's certainly usable enough. But given that it stops everything in its tracks while you're manipulating the controls, it should be smooth and instantaneous, and it's just not.
The scope seems to use any excuse at all to nuke your history. Merely changing the voltage offset will cause the scope to throw away everything it's captured. Hitting "single" will certainly do that. Even hitting the button corresponding to the trigger mode you're already using will cause it to throw away the history, even though doing so would, you'd think, be the equivalent of a no-op. You might want some means of telling the scope to toss the history (though I haven't come up with a good reason for that), but doing so should be the exception. Seeing how the always-on history is one of the main distinguishing characteristics of this scope and is essentially the justification for the "what you see is all you get" approach to capturing, nuking the history for the slightest of reasons seems counterproductive at a minimum.
When you're using the decode list, hitting the multifunction knob button should move you to the portion of the waveform where the decoded entry is (moving the waveform itself will move your location in the list, so essentially I'm saying that this should work in reverse as well). But it doesn't. This isn't unique to the 2000X+ series -- it's the same with the 1000X-E series as well.
The intensity grading just isn't as smooth as it is on the 1000X-E series. I have a suspicion this is the result of the grading code not having been adjusted properly for the higher resolution display or something like that, but it may be that making such an adjustment would negatively impact the performance, so this is a tradeoff I'm willing to live with. The grading isn't terrible or anything, but it's not quite as good as the 1000X-E, either.
There are likely to be other good and bad things that I'll discover about the scope as I continue to use it. But thus far, I'm overall very impressed. It somehow has a very professional feel to it, despite its somewhat mediocre responsiveness for some things (I've generally found that the scope is very responsive to manipulation of the menus). Those things I've tried (which isn't a lot just yet) seem to work without issues. It remains to be seen if the UI is more stable than that of the 1000X-E series (seems the 1000X-E UI will eventually lock up if given enough time, but most people won't see that because most people probably don't leave their scopes running 24x7 like I do). But so far, this thing is a real humdinger from the point of view of this neophyte user.
One last thing: keep in mind that especially when it comes to the usability angle, it's much easier to notice things that are done wrong than things that are done right. Done right, a UI more or less "disappears" into the background, becoming completely unobtrusive because it just stays out of your way when you're using it. So if you don't see me praising the UI for something it gets particularly right, that's why.
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I'm late to the party here but I am very thankful they have added configurable colors to this scope for the colorblind like me!
Thank you. Seriously! Everyone needs to do this, it isn't that hard. There are lot of colorblind people in the world.
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Trying to gather more information on the dynamic range (or handling of overload), I did a test similar to what maxspb69 did. A 1Khz square 5V p-p added to a 97Khz triangular 5mV p-p. I was able to measure it and display with some level of accuracy in the Rigol but wasn't able to properly zoom in the Siglent. If I tried to go under 200mV per division in the Siglent it wouldn't trigger, so the best I could do was to capture in 10bits and then apply zoom on a captured signal. In the attached images there is the signal at 200mV in the Siglent and then the digital zoom on the captured wave, also a display of what I get if once I've done the recentering I go to Run mode. The triggering point wouldn't make any difference, and in fact I would ocassionally get strange artifacts on the screen. In the Rigol images you can see at normal and hi-res, both in single-shot and run modes, working with no problem.
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I checked my RTB2000 and SDS2000+ with a 5V / 5mV signal. Both oscilloscopes handled this signal poorly.
These are very difficult conditions. In this case, MCO5074 wins, albeit very slightly.
The screenshots show the best signal image I could get. Better these two devices cannot display.
[attach=1][attach=2]
But everything changes if we little simplify the task. Let's take a 4V / 5mV signal. Here SDS2000X+ is allowed to set 5mv / div and set the big offset. The signal is distorted, but you can examine it in detail.[attach=3]
This is probably due to the features of the frontend circuitry and the switching threshold of the relay controlled attenuator.
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Congrats on upgrade!
It is nice to see balanced, concrete examples of what you found by using the scope..
Those are very helpful to users and Siglent to make better products.
Happy holidays!
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I set the offset in the AWG, as the MSO5074 has the same problem with maximum offset at a given voltage per division. I've attached a capture with the MSO5074 of the most extreme conditions I was able to generate with my "improved" SDG2042X, 10V (0-10V) square with a 2mV triangle (didn't try on the SDS2104X as it was already failing at 5V/5mV).
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Congrats on upgrade!
It is nice to see balanced, concrete examples of what you found by using the scope..
Those are very helpful to users and Siglent to make better products.
Thanks! It's quite a scope, I gotta say. This feels like the sort of scope that is so capable that it will never need to be replaced as long as it survives. The 1204X-E is very capable in its own right, but there's something about this scope that feels like it's so good and so complete that most users will not really be wanting for anything, particularly after Siglent fixes what bugs exist in the scope.
Happy holidays!
Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, and Happy Holidays! And may this next year be even more awesome than this year was.
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I got myself an SDS2104X Plus...right before Christmas.
Merry Christmas to me as well; got my SDS2104+ on the day after. My initial impression (with apologies to Oscar Hammerstein II): I'm in love, I'm in love, I'm in love, I'm in love, I'm in love with my wonderful 'scope. Youngsters may need to Google "South Pacific."
I also ordered the MSO option
Having already overspent on the 'scope, I bought an used HP/Agilent/Keysight/FutureNameHere logic pod converted for the Siglent for $50 delivered, from a seller here on eevblog. He has created an adapter that plugs into the scope, the downside being the lack of a housing for the plug end. It seems to stay in place without the added support, but if that becomes a problem I'll 3D print something.
I haven't had a chance to try it yet, but since everything but the adapter assembly is HP quality I expect it will work well. The used pod and flywires look to be in good condition. The woven cable is about a meter long.
The adapter looks to be very well designed to my inexperienced eyes: squiggles in apparently appropriate places, ground plane all the way into the 'scope and a 2nd board the size of the 'scope's plug opening, with a slit in the middle through which the adaptor's fingers slide at a 90 degree angle such that it extends the ground plane to cover the 'scope's plug opening. Almost forgot, he sends two of each board so I have a spare for each as well.
I managed to run into some responsiveness problems early on
I haven't seen anything similar. When I received the 'scope I installed the latest firmware (thinking it would only install if it were newer - not the case as it turns out); no harmful effects at least. If you see the problem again you might give this a try.
The scope seems to use any excuse at all to nuke your history.
Say it ain't so! I'd read something that hinted at this but thought I'd misunderstood. Memory management was my main concern going with Siglent. I started out with a negative attitude due to a video from someone I've come to greatly respect, who savaged the Siglent approach. I'm looking at you, Dave! :)
Weeks of reading the Siglent threads lead me to believe I understood the advantage of the Siglent Way, and learning to think and work using the 'what you see is all you get' approach was worth the sacrifice. Now it sounds like that advantage was mostly smoke.
Siglent: Please tell me this is a bug that will be fixed in the next update. Or tell me that you've decided to discontinue swimming upstream on this front and will provide me an option to use my buffers conventionally. This sounds like the best solution for everyone including you - is this a religious issue in the Siglent universe?
When you're using the decode list...
That would be nice; I'd be surprised if we didn't see such an easy fix soon. But what I find a more glaring and surprising omission is the inability to search on decodes. I only bought the 'scope after I found that I can easily export my captured data for analysis on my PC (sigrok to the rescue).
I've gotten push-back on this feature as unnecessary or not useful, and while that may be true for the commenters, it isn't in my case. Sure, a real (USB-based) unit would allow far more powerful decoding and analysis that I can do on any 'scope. But if needed I can do that now using sigrok. A flexible and well-implemented search would cover the middle ground, which is where I anticipate spending much of my time.
But thus far, I'm overall very impressed. I've generally found that the scope is very responsive to manipulation of the menus.
I couldn't agree more. Other than dragging waveforms and such, the UI screams; even its slower operations are not frustrating.
Moreover, IMO it's UI is beautiful and well thought out. I guess many don't care, but the aesthetics of an instrument makes a difference in the usability of an instrument for me. I couldn't ask for more; in my limited experience they've wisely chosen which soft buttons to implement physically and have arranged the controls well.
I'm increasingly colorblind as I age and being able to set trace colors makes a real difference; as the 'scope arrived I could see little difference between the default colors on channels 3 & 4. Without the option to set trace colors my 'scope would be been practically reduced to 3 channels. That the trace buttons change colors to match the trace is a Rolls-Royce touch I didn't expect (if only they could get the probe's chicken-rings to do the same!).
One presumably easy change that would make the buttons better indicate channel state is to use a lower brightness for a button that is active but not selected, reserving full intensity for the selected channel and disabling the LEDs on inactive channels.
My biggest gripe has nothing to do with the 'scope: the docs are substandard beyond my expectation. No only is much omitted, but some information is flat wrong (look up setting the VNC port number, as one example). I hope there are many application notes I've yet to find.
I've spent several hours trying to get VNC working; years ago I used it often to control remote PC's and it's always just worked (this is my first attempt under Win10). I've found many VNC tutorials for Win10, not a single one of which helped, using either the default Windows app or UltraVNC. The manual is silent on this feature other than incorrect instructions for setting the port number. Come on, if a feature doesn't work with the default OS app, tell me how to use the damn thing.
I know Siglent adds and improves features routinely, but my version-free, undated manual doesn't tell me about them and provides no way of knowing when it was last updated so I know if I have the latest version. No need to take this as far as some do, with change logs and all, but a date and version number don't seem too much to expect.
This is perhaps more important to me than to others. I'm old and don't have much time left to waste - every hour is more precious than the last and it pisses me off then I have to waste even one hunting down information that should have been provided.
When I buy a no-name Chinese gadget, I factor that I will get no documentation or support into the purchase decision. Had I paid $140 rather than $1400 for the 'scope your documentation would have exceeded my wildest expectations. Please put some effort into this, what I see as your greatest weakness.
One last thing: keep in mind that especially when it comes to the usability angle, it's much easier to notice things that are done wrong than things that are done right.
You make an important point.
Part of any frustration about the SDS2K+ line may be the result of the generally wonderful job they've done on this instrument. X was done better than it is on some $10K scopes, but how could they have managed to screw up Y so badly? The better the good, the worse the bad looks in comparison.
Bottom line, bitching aside (and anticipating a history fix), I'm still singing. Thank you, Siglent!
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There are indeed some problems with knobs (not keys!) responsiveness and it is serious. Those who worked with Keysight, Rohde&Schwartz and Tektronix scopes and tried SDS2000X+ know what this is about. Hopefully this will be fixed in the future, because this is the most annoying moment when working with a scope.
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There are indeed some problems with knobs (not keys!) responsiveness and it is serious.
Hm?
Did I miss something ?
I got no problems with the knobs :-//
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The problems are not with the knobs and encoders, but with the slow reaction of the scope to their rotation. Try to quickly turn the vertical gain or timebase knob for 5-6 clicks. You will see that the timebase or gain has changed by 2-3 points at best case. And they should be 5-6, as you turn. If you turn the knobs no faster than 2 clicks per second - no problem. But this is not normal, in my opinion.
The situation when you need to quickly change the timebase or gain within a large range (100ms - 50ns for example). And slowly turning the handle for a long time so that the device has time to react is annoying. Most oscilloscopes don't have this problem, even much cheaper ones.
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Ah, now I know what you mean.
"Unfortunately", I´m still having holidays, so I couldn´t check this on other scopes at work.
For me it´s no problem at all (got this scope since february this year and did not notice it until you wrote it.).
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The problems are not with the knobs and encoders, but with the slow reaction of the scope to their rotation. Try to quickly turn the vertical gain or timebase knob for 5-6 clicks. You will see that the timebase or gain has changed by 2-3 points at best case. And they should be 5-6, as you turn. If you turn the knobs no faster than 2 clicks per second - no problem. But this is not normal, in my opinion.
The situation when you need to quickly change the timebase or gain within a large range (100ms - 50ns for example). And slowly turning the handle for a long time so that the device has time to react is annoying. Most oscilloscopes don't have this problem, even much cheaper ones.
Indeed, this is a really annoying bug. How can that even happen? A quadrature decoder is a built-in block nowadays in any micro controller. How can software "miss" events there? It should not be possible.
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I don't think it's a bug.
IMHO that is a feature, due to timing constraints, and users will have to live with it.
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I don't think it's a bug.
IMHO that is a feature, due to timing constraints, and users will have to live with it.
I disagree.
You'd have a valid point if moving the knobs didn't stop all other processing. But it does stop all other processing. It stops triggering, it stops display update (except for the necessary things to show the changes you're making), everything. This means that when you're twiddling the knobs, there is absolutely no excuse at all for the responsiveness to be anything other than instantaneous. I mean, even just moving the cursors will stop all processing and nuke your history. And while it may appear that the scope is continuing to operate while you move the cursors, careful observation will show that it's stopping operation in between updates of the cursors. But the proof that it's stopping operations is in the fact that it's clearing the history.
In fact, I'm beginning to believe that perhaps the reason for the relatively slow responsiveness may be in part that it nukes the history buffer every time it processes an update as a result of movement of these knobs, and it may be that nuking the history is a relatively expensive operation. If that's the case, then Siglent should simply be recording, in a flag, that the history needs to be cleared once the scope resumes normal operation (and they should clearly be using a long enough delay prior to resumption that the probability of interfering with interaction with the knobs is kept low).
EDIT: It doesn't nuke the history every time it processes an update. It nukes it upon the first acquisition after any change to the cursor state (which includes position, etc., as well as whether or not the cursors are enabled -- just enabling the cursors is enough to cause it to kill the history buffer upon the next acquisition), the timebase, the volts/div, the trigger position, or the voltage offset. There may be additional things that qualify, but that's the minimum.
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There are indeed some problems with knobs (not keys!) responsiveness and it is serious. Those who worked with Keysight, Rohde&Schwartz and Tektronix scopes and tried SDS2000X+ know what this is about. Hopefully this will be fixed in the future, because this is the most annoying moment when working with a scope.
I haven't noticed this (and hope I don't, but probably will now that it's been pointed out).
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The problems are not with the knobs and encoders, but with the slow reaction of the scope to their rotation. Try to quickly turn the vertical gain or timebase knob for 5-6 clicks.
Now that I understand what you meant, I've seen it too. Where it's most painful for me is when I'm trying for some acceleration while changing numeric values. It's been less of a bother (for me) for other uses, but a fix would be welcome.
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Where it's most painful for me is when I'm trying for some acceleration while changing numeric values. It's been less of a bother (for me) for other uses, but a fix would be welcome.
Yes I've noticed this also and it might appear Siglent haven't paid as much attention to encoder acceleration algorithms as they had in earlier DSO's that didn't have a touch display like 2kX Plus or 5kX both have.
IMHO it is better they focused on fixing other stuff initially as with the pop up keyboard and especially when used in conjunction with a mouse makes it easy to change numeric values should they be needed by large amounts. Otherwise the encoders work just fine for small increments in values.
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IMHO it is better they focused on fixing other stuff initially as with the pop up keyboard and especially when used in conjunction with a mouse makes it easy to change numeric values should they be needed by large amounts. Otherwise the encoders work just fine for small increments in values.
Most certainly the bugs and other issues should be properly prioritized. But that said, the better and more issue-free they can make the user interface (which clearly includes the knobs), the closer they'll get the scope to the big name offerings. It'll make Siglent's scopes that much more compelling. One should not underestimate the market value of a refined and reliable user experience, particularly in market segments where the competition's primary edge is that their offerings "just work".
I should probably expound on why that is. Functional bugs and limitations are problems when those bugs are encountered, but encountering them requires that you use the functionality in question. The further away from the most common functionality you get, the less likely someone is to run into any problems or limitations there. But the user interface? That is used by everyone. Which means that everyone sees problems with it. And that means that when there are user interface problems present, everyone who is comparing scopes side by side might easily go with a "big name" scope despite the higher price, precisely because the user experience is more solid.
And that logically means that the proper objective prioritization of fixes and improvements should go to the UI first, most especially those aspects of the UI that are more or less universal, like the use of the rotary encoders.
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I am sure I don't understand all the downsides encountered by software engineers with an Oscillsocope.
But it is difficult to understand such a lag on the encoders for people like me, who is a very bad coder by the way, who work on µC between 16 and 200 Mhz and who manage to obtain an almost perfect reactivity.
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I should probably expound on why that is. Functional bugs and limitations are problems when those bugs are encountered, but encountering them requires that you use the functionality in question. The further away from the most common functionality you get, the less likely someone is to run into any problems or limitations there. But the user interface? That is used by everyone. Which means that everyone sees problems with it. And that means that when there are user interface problems present, everyone who is comparing scopes side by side might easily go with a "big name" scope despite the higher price, precisely because the user experience is more solid.
This is getting slightly off-topic but I do want to comment: I rather have a (slightly) lesser user interface than the primary functions not working 100%. The user interface is something you can get used to. A function not working when you need it most is a bigger problem because that simply stops your work.
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I should probably expound on why that is. Functional bugs and limitations are problems when those bugs are encountered, but encountering them requires that you use the functionality in question. The further away from the most common functionality you get, the less likely someone is to run into any problems or limitations there. But the user interface? That is used by everyone. Which means that everyone sees problems with it. And that means that when there are user interface problems present, everyone who is comparing scopes side by side might easily go with a "big name" scope despite the higher price, precisely because the user experience is more solid.
This is getting slightly off-topic but I do want to comment: I rather have a (slightly) lesser user interface than the primary functions not working 100%. The user interface is something you can get used to. A function not working when you need it most is a bigger problem because that simply stops your work.
I agree with you as regards primary functions. Fundamental functions have to work. But those functions tend to be the functions that most users will use as well, so they rank right up there with the UI.
But the more obscure the function, the fewer the number of people who will rely on it. Admittedly, those people will be stopped cold by a fundamental bug in that functionality that has no viable workaround, and one could make an argument that such bugs should be prioritized above the UI. That's a tougher call, though, precisely because the UI is used by everyone. I suppose such bugs should be prioritized above UI issues when the UI issues aren't themselves major impediments to operating the scope. But then again, the market benefit of prioritizing the UI above such bugs might well result in the scope being a bigger draw than would prioritizing bugs in more obscure (lesser used) functions.
If you had to choose between a scope that had a brilliantly polished and smooth user interface, but which had an occasional bug in relatively obscure functionality, versus a scope that had a barely functional UI but no bugs in even relatively obscure functionality, which one would you choose? What if the obscure functionality in question was functionality you had no intention of using? Be honest now. :D
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Are you going to buy a car that is comfortable and can go very fast, BUT that has slow responsive steering and braking? ;D
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When you don´t like your new car, return it back and buy another. ;)
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That's just the point that I like this scope! May be fixed later (although this should never be expected)
In addition, there are no alternatives for this money.
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I should probably expound on why that is. Functional bugs and limitations are problems when those bugs are encountered, but encountering them requires that you use the functionality in question. The further away from the most common functionality you get, the less likely someone is to run into any problems or limitations there. But the user interface? That is used by everyone. Which means that everyone sees problems with it. And that means that when there are user interface problems present, everyone who is comparing scopes side by side might easily go with a "big name" scope despite the higher price, precisely because the user experience is more solid.
This is getting slightly off-topic but I do want to comment: I rather have a (slightly) lesser user interface than the primary functions not working 100%. The user interface is something you can get used to. A function not working when you need it most is a bigger problem because that simply stops your work.
If you had to choose between a scope that had a brilliantly polished and smooth user interface, but which had an occasional bug in relatively obscure functionality, versus a scope that had a barely functional UI but no bugs in even relatively obscure functionality, which one would you choose? What if the obscure functionality in question was functionality you had no intention of using? Be honest now. :D
There are many gradations of how bad a UI can be. In the end an unworkable UI won't do you much good. Examples of equipment with a less than stellar UI I have are a Lecroy Wavepro 7300A (oscilloscope) and a Tektronix AFG31022 (arbitrary function generator). But the primary functionality is rock solid on both due to the decades of experience the manufacturers have with making this kind of equipment. You can be sure even an obscure feature works as intended the day you need it. Siglent equipment OTOH has stopped me dead in my tracks several times already with no viable workaround for relatively simple tasks.
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Are you going to buy a car that is comfortable and can go very fast, BUT that has slow responsive steering and braking? ;D
That might be bad comparison, more like you bought the car that has automatic gearbox with paddle shifters, that doesn't react instantly but sometimes wait for engine to downshift.
It might be annoying at first, than you realize you would have to wait anyways even if it were manual...
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There are many gradations of how bad a UI can be.
Of course. That's why I said "barely functional UI", to make it clear that what you would be up against is a UI that would cause you to pull your hair out.
In the end an unworkable UI won't do you much good. Examples of equipment with a less than stellar UI I have are a Lecroy Wavepro 7300A (oscilloscope) and a Tektronix AFG31022 (arbitrary function generator). But the primary functionality is rock solid on both due to the decades of experience the manufacturers have with making this kind of equipment. You can be sure even an obscure feature works as intended the day you need it. Siglent equipment OTOH has stopped me dead in my tracks several times already with no viable workaround for relatively simple tasks.
What's the most recent piece of Siglent equipment that behaved like that? They seem to have improved their game a bit in the last year or two.
There's a reason I worded the question as I did. I most certainly recognize that basic functionality has to work, and that it's more important to fix bugs in that than it is to polish the UI. Here, we're talking about how you'd prioritize between a scope that has an excellent UI and some broken functionality that you know going into it that you're highly unlikely to ever use, versus a scope that has a barely functional UI (bad enough that you'd want to throw the thing through the window) but in which all the functions work.
In any case, I noticed that you didn't actually answer my question. :D
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Most recent Siglent equipment that failed on me is the SDG2000X+#@$! (whatever) series. Modulation doesn't work quite right. Regarding your question: it is too black & white. No manufacturer will put out a piece of equipment which has a user interface which is borderline unusable.
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Most recent Siglent equipment that failed on me is the SDG2000X+#@$! (whatever) series. Modulation doesn't work quite right.
I presume that's this? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-siglent-sdg2042x-thread/msg2893004/#msg2893004 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-siglent-sdg2042x-thread/msg2893004/#msg2893004)
Interesting bug. What was your use case for that? I'm just curious -- I didn't see it explained in that thread.
Regarding your question: it is too black & white. No manufacturer will put out a piece of equipment which has a user interface which is borderline unusable.
You could be right. I've seen software that was barely usable (it's been years, though), but a piece of equipment takes a larger R&D investment, and that alone is probably sufficient to ensure that the UI is at least somewhat usable.
Despite its problems, the SDS2000X+ UI is certainly usable. Given that, perhaps it would be best for Siglent to concentrate their efforts on fixing functionality before turning their attention to the UI. That said, it sure would be nice if they somehow made the scope significantly more responsive and consistent with respect to the knobs.
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Interesting bug. What was your use case for that? I'm just curious -- I didn't see it explained in that thread.
Better he´ll answer that in the suitable thread. ;)
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Most recent Siglent equipment that failed on me is the SDG2000X+#@$! (whatever) series. Modulation doesn't work quite right.
I presume that's this? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-siglent-sdg2042x-thread/msg2893004/#msg2893004 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-siglent-sdg2042x-thread/msg2893004/#msg2893004)
Interesting bug. What was your use case for that? I'm just curious -- I didn't see it explained in that thread.
As Martin72 noted this gets wildly off-topic (but in the other thread nobody cared either) so I'll keep it short: The use case is to simulate an oscillator wandering up & down slowly but this has to happen symetrically otherwise the generator introduces a frequency offset as well.
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Hi,
Dave´s AM-Mod Signal for intensity check, does anybody know the settings ?
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I believe as below.
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Hi,
Dave´s AM-Mod Signal for intensity check, does anybody know the settings ?
Not sure, but try 1MHz carrier, 1kHz modulation with 100% AM.
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Thank you both, will try it later :-+
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Watching videoreviews and comparing it with the screen of my scope, it seems to me that the intensity gradng rendering was slightly "broken" in the latest firmware. In the Defpom's review https://youtu.be/QHH4H8Q7IWg?t=1388 you can see clearly distinguishable gradations of brightness when displaying AM signal, even at 100% brightness intensity. In the latest firmware, this does not look so reliable anymore. To see noticeable gradation, you need to reduce the intensity to 0%. At the standard 50%, gradations are subtle. And at 100% intensity, gradations are very small..
Probably due to the addition of the function of arbitrary change of channel colors.
I wonder if it is possible to install an earlier firmware version and compare. And what will happen to all the new options installed (SENT and Manchester decoding) which are not in the old firmware?
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I wonder if it is possible to install an earlier firmware version and compare. And what will happen to all the new options installed (SENT and Manchester decoding) which are not in the old firmware?
I think they'll remain with no problems. Of course, if they should ever disappear you can always reinsert them.
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I wonder if it is possible to install an earlier firmware version and compare. And what will happen to all the new options installed (SENT and Manchester decoding) which are not in the old firmware?
I think they'll remain with no problems. Of course, if they should ever disappear you can always reinsert them.
Same.. shouldnt touch the license files less you blow out their folder.. the older firmware will just ignore the codes
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Watching videoreviews and comparing it with the screen of my scope
You should make a video from your scope screen and then compare to other videos... ;)
Ambient light, what cam are used, what adjustments were taken....it could be different what you see at video and in real.
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Hi,
it seems to me that the intensity gradng rendering was slightly "broken" in the latest firmware.
Try it a few minutes ago, for me it´s still the same as before, as I´ve bought it.
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Yes, I have exactly the same on my screenshots.
I guess it seemed to me, so everything is ok.
And on real scope screen it very much depends on the angle from which you look at the display. And why did they not equip this scope with the IPS display ?! :)
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It could be going always better...
This Display is better than the one of the rigol MSO5, I´ve owned.
Laugh or not, I´ve searched and found a suitable IPS display for it, with the same dimensions and connectivity. 8)
Would cost 69€ - That sounds cheap, but if rigol would build the scopes with that, they won´t cost the money before.
Same by siglent I guess.
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I agree, the SDS2000X+ display is not so bad, I just involuntarily compare it with the RTB2000, and this is definitely not worth doing :)
By the way, if you find a suitable IPS display for SDS2000 - give me a link, please, I will buy and install it. :)
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And on real scope screen it very much depends on the angle from which you look at the display.
Like this, it´s a picture taken from the screen with lowest intensity adjusted - doesn´t looks like.
So videopics could be an illusion too.
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I agree, the SDS2000X+ display is not so bad, I just involuntarily compare it with the RTB2000, and this is definitely not worth doing :)
By the way, if you find a suitable IPS display for SDS2000 - give me a link, please, I will buy and install it. :)
What type is it now, TN? Might be for a good reason. TN displays are faster than IPS, no?
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What we see is TFT TN. There is only one reason - the price of this type of display. The scope doesn't need to refresh the screen faster than 60 times per second, all IPS can do this for a long time ago, and many modern IPS are even much faster.
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Functional bugs and limitations are problems when those bugs are encountered, but encountering them requires that you use the functionality in question. The further away from the most common functionality you get, the less likely someone is to run into any problems or limitations there. But the user interface? That is used by everyone.
Very well stated. The value of a good UI is often underestimated, with non-critical but irritating fixes delayed by other priorities.
Perhaps those of us with a software background better appreciate this because it was often up to us to design them, so we learned to appreciate the importance of (and had lots of practice creating) good UIs.
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By the way, if you find a suitable IPS display for SDS2000 - give me a link, please, I will buy and install it. :)
First we need to know the original display....
In the rigol case, I´ve simply asked them and became an answer with datasheet, so I could search for a suitable Exchange but with IPS.
10" IPS in 1024x600 are very hard to find, in real I´ve found only one.
https://www.banggood.com/de/10_1-Inch-1024x600-720P-65K-IPS-Full-View-LVDS-HD-LCD-Display-Screen-Capacitor-Touch-Board-p-1613920.html?utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_organic&gmcCountry=DE&utm_content=minha&utm_campaign=minha-de-de-pc¤cy=EUR&cur_warehouse=CN&createTmp=1&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_bgs&utm_content=frank&utm_campaign=frank-ssc-de-all-20bf11-1006-11sale&ad_id=471112227280&gclid=CjwKCAiAirb_BRBNEiwALHlnD6_jNQA8kqtaQCAHIJ7L_7qO2FOk18179sBwg7x_T3yCHsDbJPeiCBoClGwQAvD_BwE (https://www.banggood.com/de/10_1-Inch-1024x600-720P-65K-IPS-Full-View-LVDS-HD-LCD-Display-Screen-Capacitor-Touch-Board-p-1613920.html?utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_organic&gmcCountry=DE&utm_content=minha&utm_campaign=minha-de-de-pc¤cy=EUR&cur_warehouse=CN&createTmp=1&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_bgs&utm_content=frank&utm_campaign=frank-ssc-de-all-20bf11-1006-11sale&ad_id=471112227280&gclid=CjwKCAiAirb_BRBNEiwALHlnD6_jNQA8kqtaQCAHIJ7L_7qO2FOk18179sBwg7x_T3yCHsDbJPeiCBoClGwQAvD_BwE)
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Drooling idiot seeks help!
How do I get dot mode to work?
What I've tried:
- Start internal AWG, sending 300KHz 4vp-p Ramp to Channel 3, all other channels inactive
- Run Auto Setup
- Stop
- At this point the 'scope is set to sample at 2 uS/div; far too many points for dot mode, so...
- Set timebase to 500pS, reducing points to 100 total
- Single shot.
- Toggle between Dot and Vector modes
- Sit in slack-jawed wonderment for a moment, wipe drool from chin, start drafting this message
With no visible change between Dot/Vector mode, and having seen this very model run in Dot Mode, I know it works... Nice, nearly identical screenshots below.
Sadly, I'm not smart enough to attach images either, so another dumb question if you please. Once I click 'Choose File' and select the image on my system, what else do I have to do? AFAICT there's no upload button. Docs imply that inserting the markup below works, but preview shows text. If images appear after I actually post this, nevermind!
One final thought: The browser interface made getting these screenshots a piece of cake, and they look good to boot. It was trivial to configure the LAN and it worked immediately. Adding a SCPI command line was brilliant. At first I didn't think I'd use the browser UI, but to grab data it's too convenient to ignore. Good job, Siglent!
Vector Mode Screenshot:
[attachimg=1 align=left width=400]
Dot Mode Screenshot:
[attachimg=2 align=left width=400]
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Drooling idiot seeks help!
How do I get dot mode to work?
With no visible change between Dot/Vector mode, and having seen this very model run in Dot Mode, I know it works... Nice, nearly identical screenshots below.
Its a bug :o :o :o
My 2000X+ run in to this "dots display failure" thing After a few times of use when I update it to the latest firmware.
Its probably a bug in the new firmware, Never had this problem on the older version.
recall a setting, or just press the "Default" button on the front panel to set factory default settings, then you should fix this.
I have tried all the operations or settings I have do before, just can't successfully reproduce the bug so far, don't know what caused the problem.
The good thing is, after fix it, it's totally gone.
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recall a setting, or just press the "Default" button on the front panel to set factory default settings, then you should fix this.
Thank you!
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I have a question about 10-bit mode. It appears this mode is implemented via hardware rather than in software like ERES.
In practical terms, does this mean that, for signals <= 100MHz, it will operate as if it had true 10-bit ADC's?
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Hi,
Please note that Siglent does not advertise this DSO as 10bit (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2783928/#msg2783928)
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I have a question about 10-bit mode. It appears this mode is implemented via hardware rather than in software like ERES.
In practical terms, does this mean that, for signals <= 100MHz, it will operate as if it had true 10-bit ADC's?
In the comparisons maxspb6 has posted two pages earlier in posts 2276 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3385210/#new) and 2277 it seems the noise is reduced when activating 10bit mode, which to me seems to indicate a reduced bandwidth due to filtering/averaging before decimation. To me 10bit mode looks like a normal HiRes or ERES mode - would be interesting if someone tested the SDS2k+’s bandwidth in 10bit mode.
Compared to that, the R&S RTB2k shows pretty much the same noise as the SDS2k+, but at native 10bit. Activating the RTB’s HiRes mode reduces noise similarly to the SDS2k+, and actually also reports the reduction in sample rate. Of course, the RTB is quite a bit more expensive as well, so horses for courses.
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would be interesting if someone tested the SDS2k+’s bandwidth in 10bit mode.
Dave did it involuntary... ;)
Apart from this, you can add Eres too and get the 10bit mode + 3bit additional, of course with much more reduced bandwith.
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I have a question about 10-bit mode. It appears this mode is implemented via hardware rather than in software like ERES.
Note that the SDS5000X (which uses more or less the same SW) has a true ERES (and averaging) mode in HW (i.e. done on the FPGA) while the SDS2000X plus features this 10bit mode in the acquisition menu and offers ERES (and averaging) only as math functions. This makes me think that the "10bit mode" in the SDS2000X plus is probably a simplified ERES implementation. Anyway, it's a digital filter implemented on the FPGA (so in HW) which reduces the effective bandwidth.
Going with the "ERES light" assumption, the manual says that for 2 ERES bits, the -3dB point is about 0.028 times the sample rate, so for the maximum sample rate of 2GSa/s (SDS2000X+), this would result in a maximum bandwidth of 56MHz. For 1.5 ERES bits, the manual states a -3dB point of 0.055 times the sample rate which would result in a maximum bandwidth of 110MHz. This is closer to the "around 100Mhz" limitation stated for 10bit mode. So I guess either the "10bit mode" is a 1.5bit ERES mode or maybe a slightly simplified implementation. However, it seems implausible the bandwidth limitation is independent of the sampling rate and calling it 10bit mode might be a bit on the optimistic side. Probably it's more like a 9.5bit mode rounded up to 10bit.
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Note that the SDS5000X (which uses more or less the same SW) has a true ERES (and averaging) mode in HW (i.e. done on the FPGA) while the SDS2000X plus features this 10bit mode in the acquisition menu and offers ERES (and averaging) only as math functions.
"Only" ? ;)
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In the sense that the SDS5000X supports these as acquisition modes on all channels and without (major?) impact on refresh rate like the big brothers from LeCroy. It's important to note though that even the Wavesurfer 3000Z supports ERES "only" as math function.
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In the sense that the SDS5000X supports these as acquisition modes on all channels and without (major?) impact on refresh rate like the big brothers from LeCroy. It's important to note though that even the Wavesurfer 3000Z supports ERES "only" as math function.
There were changes for SDS2kX Plus for ERES and Averaging as these both are now treated as Math functions instead of Acquisition modes.
From Dec 2019:
ERES is not an acquisition mode anymore, but a math function (LeCroy send their regards!).
Average and ERES are now implemented as math functions.
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I have tried all the operations or settings I have do before, just can't successfully reproduce the bug so far, don't know what caused the problem.
The good thing is, after fix it, it's totally gone.
Update: it's simply caused by the "Zone trigger".
Try this: set display type to dots, timebase under 2ns. Open Zone trigger menu, toggle between on and off, you'll see the magic.
I think this may for better trigger judgment with the zone trigger function, not a big deal anyway.
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Update: it's simply caused by the "Zone trigger".
I don't think it was related to zone triggering in my case as I haven't tried that feature yet.
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No need for speculations about 10 bit mode and ERES - it's all there, even a frequency response graph (replies 32, 57, 58 and 62):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2786952/#msg2786952 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2786952/#msg2786952)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2840282/#msg2840282 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2840282/#msg2840282)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2840298/#msg2840298 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2840298/#msg2840298)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2857298/#msg2857298 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2857298/#msg2857298)
In short: 10 bit mode is hardware accelerated, with no impact on the waveform update rate. It equals 1 bit ERES, thus provides 10 bits of resolution and a theoretical increase of 1 bit ENOB.
ERES 1 bit is certainly fit for 100 MHz bandwidth.
We can even add an ERES 3 bit math function, for a total resolution of 16 bits and 4 bits theoretical ENOB enhancement. Keep in mind that we still have the linearity of an 8 bit ADC. so it heavily depends on the application whether this makes sense (at least the filter effect should).
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I don't think it was related to zone triggering in my case as I haven't tried that feature yet.
Have you fix it yet? It doesn't really needs you to USE the zone triggering, the scope will forced to Vector mode once the zone trigger menu is "on", even NO trigger zones are in use, and no zones show on the display.
If you can try (or successfully) reproduce the problem by other processes, it should certainly considered as a bug.
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In short: 10 bit mode is hardware accelerated, with no impact on the waveform update rate. It equals 1 bit ERES, thus provides 10 bits of resolution and a theoretical increase of 1 bit ENOB.
We can even add an ERES 3 bit math function, for a total resolution of 16 bits and 4 bits theoretical ENOB enhancement. Keep in mind that we still have the linearity of an 8 bit ADC. so it heavily depends on the application whether this makes sense (at least the filter effect should).
My main point was that the bandwidth limitation is a function of the sample rate (and the filter length resulting in the number of ERES bits). Directly counting the ERES bits as additional ENOB bits as done in the Siglent manual might be a bit optimistic. Note that LeCroy doesn't do that in the WS3000Z manual/data sheet. So LeCroy defines 3 ERES bits on an 8bit ADC as equivalent to an 11bit ADC - which would mean that a 10bit mode equivalent mode would need 2 ERES bits according to LeCroy's definition. We agree though that the "10bit mode" of the SDS2000X+ can't be actually a 2bit ERES mode. Whether it's 1bit or 1.5bit doesn't really matter so much.
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Anybody who cares to look at the postings behind the provided links can see what the actual resolution enhancement is. We get 10 bits in 10 bit mode (surprise!) and up to additional 6 bits by using ERES 3.0
Yes, it's the whole point of the ERES "halfbits" to indicate that a resolution enhanced 8 bit ADC (by oversampling/filtering) is of course not the same as a physical ADC with higher resolution. ERES 1.0 for an 8 bit ADC enhances the resolution to 10 bits, but the ENOB cannot exceed 9 bits, not even theoretically.
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Most recent Siglent equipment that failed on me is the SDG2000X+#@$! (whatever) series. Modulation doesn't work quite right.
I'm beginning to wonder if the problem with bugs in fundamental functionality is something that even the top-tier manufacturers are now failing to detect and rectify prior to release. For instance: https://youtu.be/SOHjFtw0sgo?t=1248
In the above, a Tektronix AFG31252 fails to get the carrier frequency right in the face of frequency modulation. That's basic functionality, probably even more so than what prevented your use case from being addressable by the AWG you were using. If Tektronix is typical of primary manufacturers these days, then one would have to conclude that the top-tier manufacturers and the secondary manufacturers are converging in terms of their quality control. And that raises the question of exactly what you're paying for when you buy from a top-tier manufacturer.
This is why I'm inclined to say that at this point, individual pieces of equipment have to be evaluated on their own merits, including with respect to bugs, independently of the manufacturer. Of course, some manufacturers may be more responsive with respect to fixing issues than others, and that has to factor into the equation. But I would wager that even that metric is a moving target nowadays. It certainly seems to be with respect to Siglent, at least, who seems to be more willing to fix bugs than they used to be (there are, of course exceptions to even that).
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Most recent Siglent equipment that failed on me is the SDG2000X+#@$! (whatever) series. Modulation doesn't work quite right.
I'm beginning to wonder if the problem with bugs in fundamental functionality is something that even the top-tier manufacturers are now failing to detect and rectify prior to release. For instance: https://youtu.be/SOHjFtw0sgo?t=1248
In the above, a Tektronix AFG31252 fails to get the carrier frequency right in the face of frequency modulation. That's basic functionality, probably even more so than what prevented your use case from being addressable by the AWG you were using. If Tektronix is typical of primary manufacturers these days, then one would have to conclude that the top-tier manufacturers and the secondary manufacturers are converging in terms of their quality control. And that raises the question of exactly what you're paying for when you buy from a top-tier manufacturer.
This is why I'm inclined to say that at this point, individual pieces of equipment have to be evaluated on their own merits, including with respect to bugs, independently of the manufacturer. Of course, some manufacturers may be more responsive with respect to fixing issues than others, and that has to factor into the equation. But I would wager that even that metric is a moving target nowadays. It certainly seems to be with respect to Siglent, at least, who seems to be more willing to fix bugs than they used to be (there are, of course exceptions to even that).
A most notable example of such an exception being the rather execrable UI in the SDG1K and 2K series of AWGs, most notably that of the frequency input setting UI which has led to my relegating my recently acquired SDG2042X to that of support plinth for my "Toy" (ha!) FY6600-60M modified to allow it to be locked to my RFS so as to be able to readily trim this rubidium locked source in 1uHz increments to that of the average frequency output from my basic GPSDO in order to quantify the +/-3 or 4 ns phase deviations caused by ionospheric effects on propagation delays between the M8T receiver module and the GPS and Galileo SVs.
I know some here might think this is a little off-topic but I suspect most SD2K+ owners will likely also be (less than proud) owners of one of these SDG models, all equally afflicted by this 4 years plus "sitting on hands" exercise that has seemingly been ongoing ever since the UI developer had decided "My work here is done!" and took a long rest upon his laurels. >:( >:( >:(
Despite the piss poor physical UI in that cheap FY6600, it can do what is currently impossible with the SDG AWGs which is to dial in trim adjustments in increments of 1uHz with relative ease over the whole frequency range, DC to 60MHz in decade multiples of my choosing, make other adjustments to either channel's output and return back to the frequency adjustment without losing my place in my chosen digit selection of adjustment.
This feature, currently lacking in the SDG AWGs, is what makes my modified toy AWG so incredibly useful in quantifying the performance of my basic hardware PLL GPSDO in the face of the limitations of a single frequency GNSS afflicted by ionospheric/tropospheric and all the other lesser system induced errors.
Apologies for this off-topic rant which really belongs in the "Siglent Technical Support join in EEVblog" topic thread but I thought it would be useful to offer an example to back up you hinted at statement about Siglent's most notable exception in their diligence to fix serious firmware issues. >:D
I guess after that, I really should compose a well thought out write up for that topic thread just to make sure Siglent, should they take any notice, create the most optimal firmware fixes to the shameful shortcomings in their SDG 1K and 2K UIs rather than create half assed fixes (there are a lot more annoyances than just the frequency setting part of the UI to be dealt with - External 10MHz reference distribution cabling pollution with a crap TCXO source anyone?).
John
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I´m pretty sure that there are several siglent sdg-threads here..Or start a new "SDGXXXX Bugs" thread. :)
Slightly on-topic:
The probe-thing....
Today my "new" probes for the scope arrived.
Lecroy PP002, 350Mhz, auto-sense, complete, looks good so far.
For 80€ - All together :D 8)
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Somewhat fascinating that they are obviously quite old, like at least from the 90s and still got the CE marking.
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Yeah, we got some of them at work also, I guess they were coming with the Waverunner Scopes we got since 1999...Or even with the 93XX ones.
Oldies but goldies. 8)
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And working perfectly...
Interesting, I didn´t notice that so far, it must have been changed with one the firmware updates:
When you got a 500Mhz Version (hehe) and turning on the second channel, first an "A" appears in the channel dialog box, according to the manual it´s the sign for that the BW will be limited to 350Mhz.
"Now" you got it most clearer to see....Nice. :D
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Unfortunately, it didn't work without bugs. Try switching to "A" and setting gain below 1A/div (500mA and lower). You will get such an unpleasant picture :(
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I´ve linked it in the bugs/features thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/msg3408846/#msg3408846).
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Got more of these probes, Martin? :P
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Hi,
The seller got 8pcs from them, all sold out.
From Lecroy, 350Mhz, Auto-Sense...no wonder they were sold as fast as lightening. ;)
What I didn´t saw it before was the "ref." button on these probes.
Pressing it, it will be the same as if you go to the channel menu and select GND - But much more faster.
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New stock SDS2104X Plus SN# range SDS2PDDD4R1*** are somewhat quieter than earlier units and it seems a slower fan has now been fitted.
Earlier Plus units were louder than SDS5000X once their smart fan had kicked back after boot but now they're about equal for fan noise.
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New stock SDS2104X Plus SN# range SDS2PDDD4R1*** are somewhat quieter than earlier units and it seems a slower fan has now been fitted.
Earlier Plus units were louder than SDS5000X once their smart fan had kicked back after boot but now they're about equal for fan noise.
Really? I dont even notice mine
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Me too. I can't hear my SDS2K+, especially near with working Rigol DP832
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Hi,
The seller got 8pcs from them, all sold out.
From Lecroy, 350Mhz, Auto-Sense...no wonder they were sold as fast as lightening. ;)
What I didn´t saw it before was the "ref." button on these probes.
Pressing it, it will be the same as if you go to the channel menu and select GND - But much more faster.
I've got a set of Lecroy 500M probes with 2.5mm diameter. Not as cheap (price of set was close to my 1054z), but input capaticance is lower and accessories are still available. BTW, I've discovered that LeCroy probes are manufactured by German company PMK, and accessories can be purchased much cheaper if branded PMK rather than LeCroy. Also, PMK probes are sometimes available on Ebay, and are cheaper than LeCroy...
This all I've discovered yesterdays evening, when order for accessories was done and shipment confirmed...
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Most recent Siglent equipment that failed on me is the SDG2000X+#@$! (whatever) series. Modulation doesn't work quite right.
I'm beginning to wonder if the problem with bugs in fundamental functionality is something that even the top-tier manufacturers are now failing to detect and rectify prior to release. For instance: https://youtu.be/SOHjFtw0sgo?t=1248
In the above, a Tektronix AFG31252 fails to get the carrier frequency right in the face of frequency modulation. That's basic functionality, probably even more so than what prevented your use case from being addressable by the AWG you were using. If Tektronix is typical of primary manufacturers these days, then one would have to conclude that the top-tier manufacturers and the secondary manufacturers are converging in terms of their quality control. And that raises the question of exactly what you're paying for when you buy from a top-tier manufacturer.
For the record: Today I had the chance to test a Siglent SDG2000X+#$%@ generator and it shows exactly the same behaviour. At some point an AWG runs out of record length to produce a complex signal with the set frequency. However unlike Tektronix, Siglent does not specify the accuracy of the frequency setting.
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For the record: Today I had the chance to test a Siglent SDG2000X+#$%@ generator and it shows exactly the same behaviour. At some point an AWG runs out of record length to produce a complex signal with the set frequency. However unlike Tektronix, Siglent does not specify the accuracy of the frequency setting.
It's not clear to me what it means to have an "accuracy" of the frequency setting. These are DDS AWGs that build their signals as a series of points in memory and then clock them out through a D/A converter. The actual frequency accuracy of a generated waveform would, I'd think, be determined primarily by the accuracy and jitter of the clock that is used to shift points out through the D/A converter. The resolution of the frequency setting is clearly limited by that clock, a.k.a. the output sample rate. Of course, there are other factors that affect the ultimate shape of the waveform, but I'm having trouble seeing how they could affect the apparent frequency of the waveform, i.e. the rate at which the same point in the waveform repeats itself, unless perhaps the waveform frequency approaches Nyquist.
But here, the drift is in comparison to the other channel of the same AWG. Both channels have the same time source, or at least I would presume them to, so I'd expect them to be clocking out points in lockstep. The accuracy and resolution of the frequency setting should be irrelevant in that case -- this isn't a measurement relative to an external frequency standard, but rather relative to the same internal standard that is being used by the AWG. This, I believe, is why Shahriar believes it to be a bug in the firmware. Admittedly, this is FM, so the generator has to generate a continuously-varying-frequency signal, there will certainly be some error at any given frequency, and I suppose what we're seeing might be the result of the actual average frequency within the FM range deviating slightly from the designated carrier frequency. But as the sample rate of the AWG increases and the number of points available to construct one period of the waveform increases, I'd expect to see that average converge on the actual carrier frequency as the sample rate increases, in the absence of ways of constructing the samples of a frequency modulated waveform over time to ensure that the average winds up being the same as the carrier frequency.
Of course, if each channel gets its own separate clock (which would surprise me greatly), that would clearly make inter-channel frequency deviation a near-certainty.
That said, my SDG1025 shows the same behavior, too, and notably worse than what the video shows, at that. Its sample rate is 125MS/s. The sample rate of the SDG2000X series is 1GS/s. Just out of curiosity, if you use the same parameters as Shahriar used (1 MHz carrier, 10 kHz deviation), does the rate at which the modulated waveform moves relative to the pure base frequency signal seem to be about twice that shown in the video? The Tek has a sample rate of 2GS/s.
Also, do you have access to an AWG from Keysight or Instek? I'm curious if this behavior is present in those generators as well.
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For the record: Today I had the chance to test a Siglent SDG2000X+#$%@ generator and it shows exactly the same behaviour. At some point an AWG runs out of record length to produce a complex signal with the set frequency. However unlike Tektronix, Siglent does not specify the accuracy of the frequency setting.
Oh yes they do in the datasheet under: Frequency Characteristics
P7
https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2017/10/SDG2000X_DataSheet_DS0202X-E02E.pdf (https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2017/10/SDG2000X_DataSheet_DS0202X-E02E.pdf)
Of course, if each channel gets its own separate clock (which would surprise me greatly), that would clearly make inter-channel frequency deviation a near-certainty.
With the Waveform Combine and channel Phase lock features available in X series SDG's a single clock seems most likely.
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New Programming Guide specifically for SDS2000X Plus models:
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/document/SDS2000X%20Plus_ProgrammingGuide_PG01-E11A.pdf
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For the record: Today I had the chance to test a Siglent SDG2000X+#$%@ generator and it shows exactly the same behaviour. At some point an AWG runs out of record length to produce a complex signal with the set frequency. However unlike Tektronix, Siglent does not specify the accuracy of the frequency setting.
Oh yes they do in the datasheet under: Frequency Characteristics
P7
https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2017/10/SDG2000X_DataSheet_DS0202X-E02E.pdf (https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2017/10/SDG2000X_DataSheet_DS0202X-E02E.pdf)
No. It is not there. What is there is the range you can adjust the frequency and the stability of the oscillator. What isn't there are the number of significant digits and fraction of the setting that is guaranteed to be correct.
In case of a complex waveform the generator has to construct an entire period of the waveform in memory and replay it. There are going to be limits to the clock frequency and memory length in order to produce this waveform (probably with some other trickery as well) but in the end there are going to be rounding errors. The frequency accuracy / number of significant digits tells the user what is the worst case error to be expected.
Tektronix specifies these numbers for both standard and arbitrary waveforms seperately for the AFG31000 series.
@kcbrown: from what I have tested with several generators (GW Instek MFG2000 , TTi TGF4000, Siglent SDG1010) is that they use the same clock for both channels but if the frequency difference becomes too great then there will be a frequency offset between the channels. For example: a 10MHz and 1Hz output signal will not be in sync. I don't have access to a Keysight generator but I suspect the Keysight might behave the same where it comes to FM generation.
Since this is getting wildly off-topic I'll leave it from here.
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Since this is getting wildly off-topic I'll leave it from here.
What's the proper place to continue this discussion?
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It would be very nice when we stop offtopic here... 8)
Here some suggestions:
SDG2042X thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-siglent-sdg2042x-thread/msg3313692/#msg3313692)
SDG1000X Thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdg1000x-waveform-generators/msg3309854/#msg3309854)
SDG2000X Firmware, Hardware, Software (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdg2000x-firmware-hardware-software-versions/msg2681817/#msg2681817)
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It would be very nice when we stop offtopic here... 8)
Here some suggestions:
SDG2042X thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-siglent-sdg2042x-thread/msg3313692/#msg3313692)
SDG1000X Thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdg1000x-waveform-generators/msg3309854/#msg3309854)
SDG2000X Firmware, Hardware, Software (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdg2000x-firmware-hardware-software-versions/msg2681817/#msg2681817)
In addition, most of the Siglent equipment threads are listed in the first post here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/)
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Since this is getting wildly off-topic I'll leave it from here.
What's the proper place to continue this discussion?
A new thread would be more appropriate because the subject is wider than a specific brand/type of function generator.
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A new thread would be more appropriate because the subject is wider than a specific brand/type of function generator.
New thread started here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/why-do-some-awgs-generate-fm-signals-with-an-incorrect-carrier-frequency/msg3424028/#msg3424028 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/why-do-some-awgs-generate-fm-signals-with-an-incorrect-carrier-frequency/msg3424028/#msg3424028)
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Hello there,
forum newbie first time posting :-[
After spending days of reading through all the SDS2000X Plus related threads on this forum, I got myself an SDS2104X+ as an upgrade to my old Rigol DS2072A. The main reasons for this purchase were the 4 channels and the "LeCroy-like" UI of the Siglent scope.
Having played around with the new scope for quite a while, I am pretty impressed of the functionality you get for the money (not to mention the upgrade capabilities...), so the Rigol went straight into the bay.
New stock SDS2104X Plus SN# range SDS2PDDD4R1*** are somewhat quieter than earlier units and it seems a slower fan has now been fitted.
Earlier Plus units were louder than SDS5000X once their smart fan had kicked back after boot but now they're about equal for fan noise.
My unit's SN is in the range tautech mentioned above but it still has the same fan equipped (ADDA AD0912DS-A70GL). Although it is no comparison to the screaming fan in the Rigol scope, I am thinking about replacing the stock fan with a more silent one (e.g. Noctua NF-A9 FLX), because of some annoying low frequency noise.
Has anyone already replaced the stock fan and can share some experience?
What about the unpopulated 4-pin fan connector?
Thanks a lot!
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Hello there,
forum newbie first time posting :-[
After spending days of reading through all the SDS2000X Plus related threads on this forum, I got myself an SDS2104X+ as an upgrade to my old Rigol DS2072A. The main reasons for this purchase were the 4 channels and the "LeCroy-like" UI of the Siglent scope.
Having played around with the new scope for quite a while, I am pretty impressed of the functionality you get for the money (not to mention the upgrade capabilities...), so the Rigol went straight into the bay.
New stock SDS2104X Plus SN# range SDS2PDDD4R1*** are somewhat quieter than earlier units and it seems a slower fan has now been fitted.
Earlier Plus units were louder than SDS5000X once their smart fan had kicked back after boot but now they're about equal for fan noise.
My unit's SN is in the range tautech mentioned above but it still has the same fan equipped (ADDA AD0912DS-A70GL). Although it is no comparison to the screaming fan in the Rigol scope, I am thinking about replacing the stock fan with a more silent one (e.g. Noctua NF-A9 FLX), because of some annoying low frequency noise.
Has anyone already replaced the stock fan and can share some experience?
What about the unpopulated 4-pin fan connector?
Thanks a lot!
Welcome to the forum.
For now I would leave the fan to see if this LF noise you hear changes after some use. Please report back about this.
Enjoy your new Plus. :)
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Service Manual.
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Service Manual.
Yep, it was put online on Siglent websites earlier this month.
Went looking for it yesterday.......
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/document/SDS2000X%20Plus%20Service%20Manual_SM0102XP-E01A.pdf
Edited for clarity.
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Sorry, I didn't see you had posted. I decided upon attaching because these things tend to disappear...
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enhances the resolution to 10 bits, but the ENOB cannot exceed 9 bits, not even theoretically.
I don't really understand ENOB. I know what the letters stand for, but would appreciate a pointer to something akin to "ENOB for Drooling Idiots: Simplified Version". :)
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Hi,
Me too.... :D
We got a HDO6034A at work, a 12bit scope from lecroy - In the specs, the ENOBs are claimed with 8.7bits.
Tomorrow at work, I´ll sign into to get this:
Lecroy White Paper: Comparing High Resolution Oscilloscope Design Approaches (https://go.teledynelecroy.com/l/48392/2019-11-10/7tw39x)
Maybe it got the answer.
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This is really simplistic conceptual view what ENOB means. Really simplistic.
If there is a interest for a actual math, that can be arranged..
But for most this is enough to grasp the concept.
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Oh, two different rectangles... ;D
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Oh, two different rectangles... ;D
LOL... :-DD
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OK, serious my friend..
The graphic seems to me, that noisefloor has to be substracted and the rest is the effective number of bits.
A few minutes ago, I´ve compared some lecroy specs.
As I wrote before, the ENOB for the HDO6000 is 8.7 bit, for the Wavepro Scope, much more expensive, it is under 8, appx 7.5 .
Both are "true" 12 bit systems.
What does it means at the end....
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OK, serious my friend..
The graphic seems to me, that noisefloor has to be substracted and the rest is the effective number of bits.
Something like that. There are details how to do it, that complicate it.
A few minutes ago, I´ve compared some lecroy specs.
As I wrote before, the ENOB for the HDO6000 is 8.7 bit, for the Wavepro Scope, much more expensive, it is under 8, appx 7.5 .
Both are "true" 12 bit systems.
What does it means at the end....
It means, that 8 bit scopes are really 6-7 bits (depending on details) and 12 bit scopes are not much more.. But always better than 8 bit ones, because noise can be averaged out..
It also depends on bandwidth. If you enable 20MHz band limit, noise drops and ENOB goes up.
Also with Lecroy if you use ERES (or some other scope with similar implementation) it will recover some resolution (with less bandwidth of course).
Full ENOB tables are big, for all combination of V/div, bandwith limiters, ERES...
Also ENOB for A/D converters is specified and measured for single signal of such and such frequency. It will not be same for every frequency.
With scopes, it is usually specified as a difference between the noise floor and bit less than maximum signal level (cca 90% of range of A/D) for that V/div.
Usually fact is ignored that if you feed the scope a signal, there will be distortion artefacts that will add to the noise floor (increase it) difference between signal and noise floor will be less than theoretical.
Really, it is hard to explain it better than Leycroy whitepaper you linked to...
Regards,
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enhances the resolution to 10 bits, but the ENOB cannot exceed 9 bits, not even theoretically.
I don't really understand ENOB. I know what the letters stand for, but would appreciate a pointer to something akin to "ENOB for Drooling Idiots: Simplified Version". :)
I find the following train of thought intuitive.
Picture SNR: Basically a figure out merit that puts the noise of your measurement system in perspective. Easy!
Now, besides noise, your measurement also gets degraded if part of your signal's power ends up in the wrong spot frequency-wise, as it's distorted by your measurement system. Your signal appears as less far above the noise floor, despite the noise floor not rising at all! Therefore, you have to look at SNR and distortion together. There's different measures for this, like THD+N (total harmonic distortion + noise) or SINAD (signal noise and distortion), which are equivalent as long as you're careful to compare apples with apples (bandwidths for noise & distortion etc)
Next, you imagine a perfect ADC that has the same SINAD as your measurement system, and calculate how many bits that theoretical ADC would need to have: presto! ENOB, effective number of bits.
ENOB is super handy as it squeezes a lot of information on a measurement system's performance into one intuitive number.
However, the above caveat of keeping things comparable (bandwidths, amplitudes, what distortion are we talking about etc) explains why ENOB figures are hard to measure, easy to misunderstand and to incorrectly compare, and very rarely given as actual specs for a complex system like a scope, as opposed to eg an ADC. Without a kilobyte of fine print on how exactly this specific ENOB spec was measured, it can do more harm than good precisely because it looks so nice and intuitive.
Often you're better off just directly comparing a simpler performance metric in one specific comparable situation. Like "Look how much more noise this scope has" or "this one shows steps, the other one is smooth" for the same signal and settings.
I like this analog whitepaper describing things in more detail:
https://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/tutorials/MT-003.pdf (https://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/tutorials/MT-003.pdf)
Nice, concise, and with less scope-chauvinism (well deserved as it may be in some cases) as whitepapers from certain well known scope manufacturers ;-)
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This is really simplistic conceptual view what ENOB means. Really simplistic.
If there is a interest for a actual math, that can be arranged..
But for most this is enough to grasp the concept.
Thank you! That's exactly what I was looking for.
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Seems Tek use a very similar logic probe for their MDO3000 series.
Stolen from another thread:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/replacing-oled-screen-on-an-agilent-u1253a-multimeter/?action=dlattach;attach=1158068)
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Firmware updates came in 3-month order so far, now we got february...Time for a new one. 8)
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Firmware updates came in 3-month order so far, now we got february...Time for a new one. 8)
Some units fresh from the factory collected today are still on 1.3.7R5
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I'm trying to decide whether to hold out for an SDS2104X-Plus (they're a little hard to get right now apparently) or go for an MSO5074, which are readily available.
Can persistence and color grading be applied to math functions in the SDS2000X-Plus scopes, especially the FFT math function? It seems like these would be particularly useful for basic spectrum analysis but I've struggled to find any pictures or videos of this capability.
In comparison, Rigol has videos showing the MSO5000 drawing an FFT with both persistence and color grading in dot render mode:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5xXNP-2sYg&t=118s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5xXNP-2sYg&t=118s)
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9wMP02Bock&t=216s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9wMP02Bock&t=216s)
I'm looking to upgrade from an Analog Discovery 2.
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Hi,
Just test it out right now on my siglent, colour grading and persistence doesn´t have an effect to math traces like FFT.
Only vector/dot mode.
Martin
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FFT does not support persistence, but it does have max-hold.
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Hi,
Just test it out right now on my siglent, colour grading and persistence doesn´t have an effect to math traces like FFT.
Only vector/dot mode.
Martin
It is really mystery why persistence is missing. It is important, in some cases very important, and finally in some cases just mandatory.
Also FFT average mode is not good, least I do not like it. This trace average math need do different way.
You can test. Input 10dBm signal and look this peak in FFT. Set signal level so that it is least >70dB over noise level and trigger auto. Set FFT average 4. Disconnect signal. Look time when you can not anymore see this signal peak higher than noise level, no need clock just count how many cup of coffee you can drink when waiting. Then set average 30 and test again. but now do not count how many coffee cup... caffeine intoxication is not fun. This average math need correct in some future FW.
Even this older SDS1202X-E have FFT persistence and this is older entry level scope.
(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E/SDS1202X-E__FFT_0dBVrms-455kHz_AM-Mod--first-100Hz--then-120Hz-.png)
455kHz, AM modulation with 100Hz and 120Hz, mod depth 20% (just with 20% mod sidebands levels are -20dBc, as can also see)
Because this, it is hard to believe Siglent do not add this in some next FW update. Why it is not implemented already - I have no idea.
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Hi,
Just test it out right now on my siglent, colour grading and persistence doesn´t have an effect to math traces like FFT.
Only vector/dot mode.
Martin
It is really mystery why persistence is missing. It is important, in some cases very important, and finally in some cases just mandatory.
Also FFT average mode is not good, least I do not like it. This trace average math need do different way.
You can test. Input 10dBm signal and look this peak in FFT. Set signal level so that it is least >70dB over noise level and trigger auto. Set FFT average 4. Disconnect signal. Look time when you can not anymore see this signal peak higher than noise level, no need clock just count how many cup of coffee you can drink when waiting. Then set average 30 and test again. but now do not count how many coffee cup... caffeine intoxication is not fun. This average math need correct in some future FW.
Even this older SDS1202X-E have FFT persistence and this is older entry level scope.
(https://siglent.fi/pic/SDS1000X-E/SDS1202X-E__FFT_0dBVrms-455kHz_AM-Mod--first-100Hz--then-120Hz-.png)
455kHz, AM modulation with 100Hz and 120Hz, mod depth 20% (just with 20% mod sidebands levels are -20dBc, as can also see)
Because this, it is hard to believe Siglent do not add this in some next FW update. Why it is not implemented already - I have no idea.
"no need clock just count how many cup of coffee you can drink when waiting" :)
Edit: faster FFT would be better and color intensity grading would be really nice.... maybe in a firmware upgrade if tautech votes for it and encourages it with an email or a phone call to Siglent :)
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Thanks Martin, Performa, rf-loop for the detailed info!
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I'm trying to decide whether to hold out for an SDS2104X-Plus (they're a little hard to get right now apparently) or go for an MSO5074, which are readily available.....
Apparently there is no inventory of SDS2104X-Plus in North America. The story I heard is the Siglent factory is waiting for semiconductor parts from USA to build the inventory, which was depleted, due to popularity. Semiconductor shortage is not just a problem with automobile Mfr being lines down.
Also shipping is an issue, limited container shipping and flights.
Was told the estimated scope availability is end of March 2021. |O :-//
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any news in getting a good mating connector ?
3D printed cover ?
for the DIY SPL2016 ?
I did find a little bit of random spread information in this huge thread about the logic analyzer DIY,
like pinouts, alot of other posts with this info the pictures or links dont work,
I dont need it that much, so I am not going to pay 400 $ for it,
and when/if i need it, I could be happy with just 4-8 channels.
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any news in getting a good mating connector ?
3D printed cover ?
for the DIY SPL2016 ?
I did find a little bit of random spread information in this huge thread about the logic analyzer DIY,
like pinouts, alot of other posts with this info the pictures or links dont work,
I dont need it that much, so I am not going to pay 400 $ for it,
and when/if i need it, I could be happy with just 4-8 channels.
The mainboard socket for the LA connector is a PCi-E socket and the mating plug is just an enclosed strip of PCB with a PCi-E footprint.
Member TK made an adapter to accept HP LA cables and I've linked it on the first post of this thread.
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that is king, thanks as always for fast, accurate and very use full reply, i check it out right now :-)
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I'm trying to decide whether to hold out for an SDS2104X-Plus (they're a little hard to get right now apparently) or go for an MSO5074, which are readily available.....
Apparently there is no inventory of SDS2104X-Plus in North America. The story I heard is the Siglent factory is waiting for semiconductor parts from USA to build the inventory, which was depleted, due to popularity. Semiconductor shortage is not just a problem with automobile Mfr being lines down.
Also shipping is an issue, limited container shipping and flights.
Was told the estimated scope availability is end of March 2021. |O :-//
Lucky you, SDS2104X Plus we've just ordered have an 8 week production lead time ! :wtf: :o
We won't have any in NZ until late May or early June ! :rant:
Yep these scopes are indeed proving to be very popular and the one I delivered yesterday and demonstrated its feature set blew my customer and his staff away.
They couldn't wait for me to bail out so they could get their own little sticky fingers on it. :-DD
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No wonder to me... 8)
Noiseless frontend, 10" display, 50Ohm terminations, a nice variety of measure parameters, professional looking UI, etc..
And this all for only 1400€.
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ya know the feeling, I had to write a few times to my distributor and ask when ??
just me impatient..
you know the probe resistor values ? for its auto detect system ?
as far as people say it is just a simple resistor to gnd,
but it could be nice to know the uptimal values for each type of auto detect and auto handle the scope can do ?
just in case we like to make our own (special) probes, as I am in the mittle of right now.
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Don´t know it, but my probes, lecroy pp002, got 10.9Kohms to GND, the siglent detects them proper without any interruptions.
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thanks, so that is atleast ONE for the list, (maybe there is an official standard for this ?)
10:1 probe mode 10.9k
I am specially looking for 100:1 resistor value :-)
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thanks, so that is atleast ONE for the list, (maybe there is an official standard for this ?)
10:1 probe mode 10.9k
Yep, typically 10k
I am specially looking for 100:1 resistor value :-)
I hope they've fixed this as it wouldn't properly detect Pintek 100x sense probes I have here but I'll measure them and see what the value actually is then maybe dig out a pot and find what the resistance for 100x probe detection actually is....but with a SDS5054X that should be identical to the 2kX Plus in this regard.
Or someone with a Plus can do this as it should be dead simple to work out.
Later as trying to finish an outside job before forecast rain.
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I was thinking about 3D printing a POGO pin into a fancy holder that round a BNC for my own 100:1 probe,
so my scope auto detect and goto 100:1 mode, this way the risk of user error is much less.
I have been googling like crasy, but cant find any lists or standard for the scope probe auto detect system.
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The Siglent SP2030A 300MHz 10X probe reads 11k.
Best
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The Siglent SP2030A 300MHz 10X probe reads 11k.
Further data points:
Siglent SP3050A 500 MHz 10x probe sense pin measures 10.66k
Pintek 100x probe sense pin measures 6.16k and is detected correctly as 100x on a SDS5054X.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1182818)
I was thinking about 3D printing a POGO pin into a fancy holder that round a BNC for my own 100:1 probe,
so my scope auto detect and goto 100:1 mode, this way the risk of user error is much less.
I have been googling like crasy, but cant find any lists or standard for the scope probe auto detect system.
IMO the easiest solution might be a BNC M-F between the probe and the scope with ~6k resistance to the sense ring then the probe BNC remains untouched/original if you just modify the M-F adapter adding a sense resistor and pogo pin.
It's not like it would matter much adding the M-F BNC adapter into the measurement circuit at the sort of frequencies you'd use a 100x probe for.
Could be well worth a suck it and see.
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thanks a lot for the 100:1 resistor value
I am not sure if I understand your BNC male - female adapter idea ?
100:1 is low speed
and I use a short RG58 with a normal BNC connector to the scope
that end I like to make a spring loaded contact, with the right resistor value, so the scope detects and handle it.
I cant be the first to come up with this idea, maybe the design is easy to find for this.
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I have been playing with a logic analyzer plug in pcb for Siglet scopes.
see the attached pictures, it is 4 layers,
i am also making a 3D printable design to make it click in and hold in,
hold and secure the cables, this way it is super easy to make your own logic analyzer cables,
any type, and any length you like.
I also plan to make a double BNC holder for this pcb,
so the 3D print hold the two extra BNC inputs, so they are nice and stable for two extra 1:1 probes
if any one is interested, PM me.
EDIT: new isolated thread for this topic
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/)
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@ oz2cpu
Your project for the logic analyzer seems interesting. Please show us your first working prototype. Thx
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thanks a lot, the pcb is on its way
so mean while i work with 3D design of the casing
the lock parts are very small, and hard to 3D print,
I am working with several ideas for this, one is even to drop the locking, since you dont really pull the wires
and the connector got a good hold of the pcb anyways.
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Agree, very interesting project. Had you considered adding some active buffer circuitry like the folks that did so with the Rigol DSO DIY Logic Analyser? Also, had you considered using another connector just for the logic probe wires, this would be on the end of the PCB away from the end that plugs into the scope slot and allow easy replacement (handy with different wire lengths)?
One concern I've had about a DIY Logic Analyser for the Siglent is the possibility of scope damage if the scope logic connector isn't protected internally. Maybe someone knows how this logic connector is wired, I've looked for schematics but no luck.
Anyway, good project and please keep us posted on your progress.
Best,
Edit: Consider starting a thread just to the Siglent DIY Logic Analyser?
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Is it bit challenging to find suitable coaxial or twisted pairs ribbon cable. After then also other end of cable need matching and perhaps some protecting circuit before enough short single grabbers wires.
With normal cheap flat ribbon cable it is totally impossible to get good edge response and keep channel to channel attenuation in good level, edges may have quite high frequency components. Or is it only for low frequencies with slow edges. Even if pulse stream is 1MHz but edges are fast they are very easy seen also in other channels, least nearest channels, just as spikes. Most frustrating this is LA probe with high cross talk. As quite all normal ribbon cable models when go bit faster edges.
It is nice that this SPL2016 is totally passive probe unlike Siglent SPL1016 and bit similar some Rigol ones where threshold and buff are in probe. Same/similar/compatible with SPL2016 can find also in some other brand....
SPL2016
Probe Input Impedance 100kΩ||18pF
Maximum Input Data Rate 300 Mbps
Minimum Detectable Pulse Width 3.3ns
But, nice project...
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>Same/similar/compatible with SPL2016 can find also in some other brand....
really ? please link ?
>One concern I've had about a DIY Logic Analyser for the Siglent is the possibility of scope damage if the scope logic connector isn't protected internally.
me too, but the original also uses 92k series resistor
hard to kill anything thru such high resistor value
>Had you considered adding some active buffer circuitry
no, not yet, wanted to keep it cheap and simple.
just wanted to sell the pcb's for cost price and let people solder their own 0603 parts and 3D print the shell them self,
most people DIY people got a 3D printer too.
I do find it hard to belive how they handle speeds down to a few nS at impedances in the 100k range,
most likely I will be using the LA for SPI and I2S and such, quite far away from this kind of speed
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I do find it hard to belive how they handle speeds down to a few nS at impedances in the 100k range,
most likely I will be using the LA for SPI and I2S and such, quite far away from this kind of speed
Perhaps this price explain bit...
You have never seen and used HP logic analyzers. 100k and so on...
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Is it bit challenging to find suitable coaxial or twisted pairs ribbon cable. After then also other end of cable need matching and perhaps some protecting circuit before enough short single grabbers wires.
With normal cheap flat ribbon cable it is totally impossible to get good edge response and keep channel to channel attenuation in good level, edges may have quite high frequency components. Or is it only for low frequencies with slow edges. Even if pulse stream is 1MHz but edges are fast they are very easy seen also in other channels, least nearest channels, just as spikes. Most frustrating this is LA probe with high cross talk. As quite all normal ribbon cable models when go bit faster edges.
It is nice that this SPL2016 is totally passive probe unlike Siglent SPL1016 and bit similar some Rigol ones where threshold and buff are in probe. Same/similar/compatible with SPL2016 can find also in some other brand....
SPL2016
Probe Input Impedance 100kΩ||18pF
Maximum Input Data Rate 300 Mbps
Minimum Detectable Pulse Width 3.3ns
But, nice project...
Here's an example 3M twisted ribbon cable that should work well for lower speeds that we'll probably use if we decide to do a DIY Logic Probe for the Siglent.
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1377874.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1377874.pdf)
Best,
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>One concern I've had about a DIY Logic Analyser for the Siglent is the possibility of scope damage if the scope logic connector isn't protected internally.
me too, but the original also uses 92k series resistor
hard to kill anything thru such high resistor value
That's a high value series R and agree not much concern about scope damage.
>Had you considered adding some active buffer circuitry
no, not yet, wanted to keep it cheap and simple.
just wanted to sell the pcb's for cost price and let people solder their own 0603 parts and 3D print the shell them self,
most people DIY people got a 3D printer too.
Assuming one has a 3D printer :-\
I do find it hard to belive how they handle speeds down to a few nS at impedances in the 100k range,
most likely I will be using the LA for SPI and I2S and such, quite far away from this kind of speed
This must place the capacitance in the few picofarads range for fractional volts/ns at those impedance levels, impressive indeed!! Our use at present is just lower speed, like with RPi SPI & I2C bus and I/O while watching a few analog waveforms to/from ADCs and DACs, or stepper motor current/voltage waveforms, or Hall Effect Senors. So nothing fast like watching memory interfaces or such, just simple low-speed stuff. Normally we would just use a cheap standard logic analyzer but having the analog waveforms available is an important consideration since most of our work is more analog related than digital.
Edit: Taking a look at the Siglent SPL2016 (don't have one, never actually used or seen one, so all speculation) it seems they are splitting the interface task into a module that plugs directly into the scope slot and a pair of "pods" which host the actual connection wires which look like ~100mm long. A longer cable (likely are twisted pairs) connects the two pods to the base unit that plugs into the scope slot.
From this setup one might speculate that the pods host active buffer circuitry which convert inputs into differential outputs driving the twisted pair cable back to the base. The base hosts additional active circuitry to convert the differential back to single ended signal that drive the scope connector pins. If true then the ~100k and low capacitance as seen from the connection wires makes sense, as they are not directly connected to the scope connector, nor directly driving the longer cable, but driving some active buffer circuit in the pod. Maybe tautech, rf-loop, or someone with the SPL2016 can enlighten us ::)
Best,
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>Assuming one has a 3D printer :-\
if not, just order the shells from me too, I will be happy to help with that too.
oh by the way : I did not find any supply voltage in that LA connector
so adding an active buffer in a digital input probe, was not in the plans from Siglent.
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>Same/similar/compatible with SPL2016 can find also in some other brand....
really ? please link ?
Google and eBay is a good place to go looking for SPL2016 lookalikes which is what I did prior to posting these:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3026262/#msg3026262 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3026262/#msg3026262)
When I've had time spent some while trying to find who makes them but no luck on that one yet......
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>Assuming one has a 3D printer :-\
if not, just order the shells from me too, I will be happy to help with that too.
oh by the way : I did not find any supply voltage in that LA connector
so adding an active buffer in a digital input probe, was not in the plans from Siglent.
Well that squashes my edit above :P
Unless a scope connector pin is controlled an becomes active when the plug is engaged ???
Thanks I may order the shell and PCB.
Best
-
thanks again tautech, yes i did see that thread too,
just did not find the one important line i was looking for :-)
did anyone confirm by really trying ? to use any of the other brands LA into a siglent ?
and all channels works, all show up at correct numbers ?
but I did find a few decent pictures of the connector and the press release and buttons,
from this i got the idea: let me drop my own home invented 3D design,
and much rather make one that looks a lot more like the original :-)
but for this, I need a lot more and better pictures, also prefered on the internal parts, how easy is it to open ?
please PM or Email me pictures ? if you got the time, Thanks in Advance.
EDIT:
new isolated thread for this topic
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/)
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thanks again tautech, yes i did see that thread too,
just did not find the one important line i was looking for :-)
did anyone confirm by really trying ? to use any of the other brands LA into a siglent ?
and all channels works, all show up at correct numbers ?
As the LA probes in that post are of other brands and identical for all intensive purposes I don't see any reason why they won't work just fine.
Like scope probes they are extremely likely not to be made by the scope manufacturers but some speciality probe company and rebranded to suit the scope OEM.
(https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/SPL2016.jpg)
but I did find a few decent pictures of the connector and the press release and buttons,
from this i got the idea: let me drop my own home invented 3D design,
and much rather make one that looks a lot more like the original :-)
but for this, I need a lot more and better pictures, also prefered on the internal parts, how easy is it to open ?
please PM or Email me pictures ? if you got the time, Thanks in Advance.
Certainly I can post some pics if necessary or take some measurements.
Yes the release catch is nice yet I wonder for the careful user if it is necessary when we could maybe rely on the friction fit into the PCi-E socket instead.
I've looked at opening the ribbon cable breakouts however they appear to be welded shut so I'd prefer not to scalpel blade them open and risk making a mess as these are my demo LA probes for when I'm out and about at shows or at customers.
Someone instead needs to Xray them so to see if there's any active or passive circuitry inside although if TK was able to make old HPAK LA cables work with just an adapter maybe there are clues in how HPAK LA cables are constructed that can also be applied to a DIY set.
IMO crosstalk can be addressed like it was with 80 conductor IDE ribbon cables have a dead/null conductor between each active one although once you've handled a real SPL2016 with their twin narrow and supple 8pr legs you wouldn't want to make something too dissimilar. I suspect the 8 conductor cable has a shield on each conductor for them to really be an 8 way coax ribbon cable...haven't gone searching for these yet.
Also their breakout ends and their extremely supple fine silicon cables for each grabber are very nice.
This EZ Hook grabber is supplied with SPL2016:
https://e-z-hook.com/test-hooks/micro-hook/xkm-micro-test-hook-double-gripper-with-0-025-in-square-pins/
For mawyatt
Breakouts are on 20 pin plugs with 10 flying leads in total with 2 Ref/Gnd leads ~120mm and 8 further leads ~180mm long. Gnd/Ref leads are 0 Ohms through whilst all others measure 91 Ohms.
-
Ok, this has got my curiosity going and we've just played around a little with the Digital option on the SDS2102X Plus we have. First time I've looked at this since we had no logic probe, thus no need to consider this Digital option. It appears the active circuitry is within the scope since you can change things which require an offset threshold to get the logic bit to toggle. This was confirmed by passing a squarewave from the AWG set to 2VPP with 1V offset, so 0 to 2V. Used a 100K resistor to very carefully poke this AWG signal into the scope connector with one hand on the scope ground at all times. If the logic threshold was default to 0 then no change in the displayed logic waveform was observed when the resistor lead touched the connector logic bit pin, however with the logic threshold set to 1V then the logic bit began to toggle when the 100K resistor lead touched the connector pin.
So it appears a completely passive logic probe is in order since the supporting bit sensing circuits are already within the scope, nice touch Siglent!!
Best,
-
exactly mike
all we need is an easy and simple way to access the pins
that is what my brake out pcb does, and I also made a nice 3D print to hold it
-
For mawyatt
Breakouts are on 20 pin plugs with 10 flying leads in total with 2 Ref/Gnd leads ~120mm and 8 further leads ~180mm long. Gnd/Ref leads are 0 Ohms through whilst all others measure 91 Ohms.
Maybe the 91 ohms matches the coaxial bit line cable impedance from the pods back to the base?
Best,
-
where exactly ? and how did you measure 91 ohms
I am a bit confused, please help us ?
-
where exactly ? and how did you measure 91 ohms
I am a bit confused, please help us ?
For each of the longer coloured leads in the breakout.
For mawyatt
Breakouts are on 20 pin plugs with 10 flying leads in total with 2 Ref/Gnd leads ~120mm and 8 further leads ~180mm long. Gnd/Ref leads are 0 Ohms through whilst all others measure 91 Ohms.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1183856)
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yes that clearly makes sense, the Good TK also helped me with the resistors and CAPACITOR,
there is infact a speed up capacitor inside the HP cable set, over the 92k resistor,
TK found this important detail in the HP docs, and kindly informed me about it.. Thanks mate..
-
time to try your 3D printer ?
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4779225 (https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4779225)
what is the Color code ? or name ? of the Siglent units ?
now I will try and see if I can get 3D printing filament in a color that is close, i down own a color meter.
-
Do these Logic Analyzer lines have a series 91 ohm resistor in the front of the POD to the probe wire, followed by a parallel 92K resistor and unknown value cap to feed the longer cable with individual coaxial lines back the base that plugs into the scope?
If correct, wonder if this to terminate the coaxial cable at the input with 91 ohms series, the bypass of the 92K resistor with a cap which would pass the signal edge to the coaxial cable. If the cable were terminated at the base, or inside the scope, with an AC coupled 91 ohms to ground, then the signal edge would "see" a terminated coaxial transmission line and no reflexions to disrupt the edge detection. So the logic signal edge would "see" a 91 ohm terminated cable if fast enough, but a slower edge would "see" a higher impedance, and both type logic signals would pass the full waveform upper and lower levels based upon the time constants involved.
Anyway, just thinking out loud as to how this might work. Anyone else have some ideas about this?
Best,
-
here you go Mike
this is the probe tip from HP
the good TK found this info.
I want to split the 250 ohm into two resistors, like this:
i expect the two 120 ohm needs to match the cable used,
and also trim the value of the 8.2pF for hi speed performance,
see attached
-
Thanks.
The 3M twisted pair ribbon cable I found has a 137 ohm balanced and 103 ohm unbalanced impedance. The load equivalent (scope side) is not what I expected tho. Need to spend some time looking into how this works.
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1377874.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1377874.pdf)
Best,
-
exactly mike, it dont need to be any closer than this :-)
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here you go Mike
this is the probe tip from HP
the good TK found this info.
I want to split the 250 ohm into two resistors, like this:
i expect the two 120 ohm needs to match the cable used,
and also trim the value of the 8.2pF for hi speed performance,
see attached
I sacrificed a probe cable... here is the picture. The resistors and capacitor are located at the tip of the probe, very close to the end (1-2 inches).[attachimg=1]
-
so it is like this ?
R1 falled of ? 350 R
C1 8p2
R2 92k
R3 ?
-
Smart tweezer across Gnd/Ref lead and channel lead of the breakout pod disconnected from the LA cable = 6.5-8.5 pF.
Not that my tweezers are very accurate with low capacitance measurements but do indeed indicate a shunt capacitance across each lead.
-
so it is like this ?
R1 falled of ? 350 R
C1 8p2
R2 92k
R3 ?
I added the values on the image but for some reason was not saved
Resistor on the left is 250 ohms, on the right is 90.1 Kohms in parallel with the 8.2pF capacitor
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Here's a simulation using the circuits and values provided for the HP (TK) and Custom (oz2cpu) Logic Probes. Stimulus is from an ideal source with 1ns rise and fall at 5v, logic gate is modeled a simple series R of 50 ohms. Probe lead cable back to scope is modeled a 137 ohm transmission line of 2ns long (twisted pair 402mm assuming vel C=0.67).
Note how the HP circuit perturbs the gate waveform less at the edge, has a flatter response but lower amplitude, and is somewhat faster rise and fall times.
Note this HP result is likely because the 250 ohm, 90.9K and 8.2pF are "pushed" out closer to the inputs ahead of the 137 ohm twisted pair transmission cable.
Best,
-
fantastic Mike, I am now sure we are going to win over this "problem"
EDIT:
new isolated thread for this topic:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/)
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Hello,
I have been following this thread from quite some time now, big thank you to the contributors: this is great to read such quality messages.
So I decided to sell my previous scope to buy the SDS2104X Plus. I'm a hobbyist and this was the kind of scope that I would not think I could afford.
What a great value for the money, this is a fantastic scope !
The hardware version is 02-04 and I can confirm that the upgrade is still working (using Miyagi method with telnet https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3006340/#msg3006340 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3006340/#msg3006340))
I found something to improve regarding the Manchester decoding and I will publish a post on this topic in the bug/missing features thread.
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cool about reporting bugs / missing features or feature requests
but are any one from the Siglent sw development team reading here ?
like is it wasted bytes ? or should it be addressed directly to them ?
do we have a hotline ? or support email, they actually read ? or respond to ?
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Hi,
I think it will be recognized, also we got some user here, which are beta-testers for siglent.
Have a look at my signature, there´s also a general siglent support thread.
-
I didn't want to clog up the DIY logic probe thread (since this isn't so much DIY) so I figured I'd ask here and see if anyone knew. I saw earlier that the Rigol RPL2316 look suspiciously like the SPL2016 logic probes, but they hold a little differently. They have a top latch instead of the side latch like the SPL2016; does anyone have any thoughts to if they'd work with this scope? I'm pretty sure they're the same design, just a slightly different case.
I only ask because I might be able to get a set of them pretty cheaply and that'd be a pretty good solution for me for logic probes.
-
I didn't want to clog up the DIY logic probe thread (since this isn't so much DIY) so I figured I'd ask here and see if anyone knew. I saw earlier that the Rigol RPL2316 look suspiciously like the SPL2016 logic probes, but they hold a little differently. They have a top latch instead of the side latch like the SPL2016; does anyone have any thoughts to if they'd work with this scope? I'm pretty sure they're the same design, just a slightly different case.
I only ask because I might be able to get a set of them pretty cheaply and that'd be a pretty good solution for me for logic probes.
It fitting into the LA probe housing opening might be an issue where you might need to trim down the plug some.
SPL2016 where it fits into the housing measures 28mm x 11mm.
Edit
Insertion depth is 24mm however the plug housing extends a little past the PCB and in doing so I believe wraps around the PCI-e socket on the mainboard.
-
I didn't want to clog up the DIY logic probe thread (since this isn't so much DIY) so I figured I'd ask here and see if anyone knew. I saw earlier that the Rigol RPL2316 look suspiciously like the SPL2016 logic probes, but they hold a little differently. They have a top latch instead of the side latch like the SPL2016; does anyone have any thoughts to if they'd work with this scope? I'm pretty sure they're the same design, just a slightly different case.
I only ask because I might be able to get a set of them pretty cheaply and that'd be a pretty good solution for me for logic probes.
Thought the Rigol has active circuitry, the Siglent is passive I believe.
Best,
-
I didn't want to clog up the DIY logic probe thread (since this isn't so much DIY) so I figured I'd ask here and see if anyone knew. I saw earlier that the Rigol RPL2316 look suspiciously like the SPL2016 logic probes, but they hold a little differently. They have a top latch instead of the side latch like the SPL2016; does anyone have any thoughts to if they'd work with this scope? I'm pretty sure they're the same design, just a slightly different case.
I only ask because I might be able to get a set of them pretty cheaply and that'd be a pretty good solution for me for logic probes.
Thought the Rigol has active circuitry, the Siglent is passive I believe.
Best,
Some Rigols use the same style LA probe as SPL2016 but the 5000 cheaped out and went for the wide ribbon cable LA probe which indeed has active componentry.
See this link:
https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/RPL2316/Logic-Probes/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/RPL2316/Logic-Probes/)
-
I didn't want to clog up the DIY logic probe thread (since this isn't so much DIY) so I figured I'd ask here and see if anyone knew. I saw earlier that the Rigol RPL2316 look suspiciously like the SPL2016 logic probes, but they hold a little differently. They have a top latch instead of the side latch like the SPL2016; does anyone have any thoughts to if they'd work with this scope? I'm pretty sure they're the same design, just a slightly different case.
I only ask because I might be able to get a set of them pretty cheaply and that'd be a pretty good solution for me for logic probes.
Thought the Rigol has active circuitry, the Siglent is passive I believe.
Best,
Why need continue this guess and believe game.
I have told it previously clearly and I say it now again. Siglent SPL2016 is passive. Repeat: SPL20152016 is passive. And it stay passive.
Siglent SPL1016 have active circuits inside. It is not passive probe. Signals also go through normal ribbon cable so it have high crosstalk depending of course signals.
And if someone think that ribbon cables are used in many places example inside computers... it is very very different case LA probe we need look signals what are asynchronous and no possible to tell time when read valid data. There is no clock or other method what tell when to read data. Every rising and falling enough sharp edge is easy visible in some other channels, least nearest. I know it, I do not just only believe.
Siglent SPL2016 is fully passive (and quite good) probe with special cable from scope connector box to cable end box. (where is connector for short grabber wires )
-
Siglent SPL2016 is passive. Repeat: SPL2015 is passive.
Your repetitions are in countdown mode... ::)
-
the siglent scope part : i found no pins with supply voltage,
so there is NO way they planned to go active, it is passive, and it will stay that way for a while.
On The Tektronix type there is a missing cut in the pcb edge connector, so their probe is not going into a siglent or lecroy scope,
however: a siglent or lecroy probe, will fit into a tek scobe, but will it work ? or will it blow up the tek scope ?
Who dare to try ? :-)
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the siglent scope part : i found no pins with supply voltage,
so there is NO way they planned to go active, it is passive, and it will stay that way for a while.
On The Tektronix type there is a missing cut in the pcb edge connector, so their probe is not going into a siglent or lecroy scope,
however: a siglent or lecroy probe, will fit into a tek scobe, but will it work ? or will it blow up the tek scope ?
Who dare to try ? :-)
Most probably they are not pin compatible, do not even try... it is not worth the risk
-
I agree, but you could not damage a siglent scope, with a tek plug in,
since there is zero voltage out in any of the pins in a siglent
the other way could be worse, since halve of the pins are gnd
-
Idea:
Everyone who are interested to have the logic probes but won´t spend the horrible money for the originals, spend 10...30 bucks to one user named.
If the money is enough, he buys the SPL2016 and make a totally teardown of it.... 8)
-
ya Martin that is one way : do we want to make 1 : 1 clone ?
or do we want to make a DIY thing that looks all right, and cost almost nothing,
and got the same electrical performance (if we are that lucky time will tell)
-
I think, "we" want a thing that will function at the end.
If I didn´t missed something, actually we guess how it must be build inside, not knowing it.
-
Think with the information provided by others we should be able make this work, likely not at the speed of the Siglent Analyzer tho. Anyway oz2cpu has created some 3D printed cases for the PCBs which look nice for starters!! See other DIY thread for details.
Best,
-
Hi All, Long time lurker (well seems like a long time while studying Elec Eng.)
Sorry to take this thread away from the Logic Analyser probes convo we got going on here. Bloody bought the probes myself, only used twice to test out. need to spend more time playing around here.
Anyway keep this shortish.
Has anyone tried to contact Siglent to get access to the Software bundle currently on offer with the "Plus" that may have purchased just before it came in October 2020.
I have contacted the vendor I got it from, waiting on a reply ( Only sent this morning so just chilling, it is Friday so no need to be impatient).
Has anyone got the bundle retroactively ????
Before we go down the just unlock it, yeah I know I can do that and it may be the option I choose to get it done. Just trolling really...
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Hi All, Long time lurker (well seems like a long time while studying Elec Eng.)
Sorry to take this thread away from the Logic Analyser probes convo we got going on here. Bloody bought the probes myself, only used twice to test out. need to spend more time playing around here.
Anyway keep this shortish.
Has anyone tried to contact Siglent to get access to the Software bundle currently on offer with the "Plus" that may have purchased just before it came in October 2020.
I have contacted the vendor I got it from, waiting on a reply ( Only sent this morning so just chilling, it is Friday so no need to be impatient).
Has anyone got the bundle retroactively ????
Before we go down the just unlock it, yeah I know I can do that and it may be the option I choose to get it done. Just trolling really...
Welcome to the forum.
Only for stock in transit that arrived after the promotion was announced. That was no problem and I got the licenses the same day.
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is there an official bug reporting thread somewhere ?
that siglent monitor ?
maybe here on eevblog ? or somewhere else ?
I think i found a bug,
my siglent SPD3303X got odd random time delay between analog channels and logic analyzer.
or ? am i doing something wrong here ?
or is this really how it is supposed to be ?
https://youtu.be/WzokRBxDM-g
PS: i am using my own logic analyzer input pcb, but as you see now with my latest speed trimmed resistor values
the digital to digital channels are perfectly fine, with in 2nS jitter = normal = the time resolution for LA.
This should be very easy to recreate, 25MHz 5V signal
-
Hello Oz2cpu,
Bug thread is here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/)
-
is there an official bug reporting thread somewhere ?
that siglent monitor ?
maybe here on eevblog ? or somewhere else ?
I think i found a bug,
my siglent SPD3303X got odd random time delay between analog channels and logic analyzer.
or ? am i doing something wrong here ?
or is this really how it is supposed to be ?
https://youtu.be/WzokRBxDM-g
PS: i am using my own logic analyzer input pcb, but as you see now with my latest speed trimmed resistor values
the digital to digital channels are perfectly fine, with in 2nS jitter = normal = the time resolution for LA.
This should be very easy to recreate, 25MHz 5V signal
Think what you are seeing are the effects of the non-ideal termination with the logic analyzer cables and PCB interface. You don't know what the actual signal looks like at the LA comparator input since this is inside the scope and not viewable from the outside. Suspect that this signal has some ringing due to improper termination effects and the comparator is not triggering at the same waveform position on every cycle, thus the apparent jitter result.
Best,
-
thanks for your comment Mike,
I understand why you get this idea, but I am not using cables at all,
the point where i measure is directly on the input of the 2 first digital channels, and at that same point is where the scope prope is attached,
so the digital part, can not see any ringings that i would not have seen on analogs.
pcb is populated with : 120R in series with 100k // 8.2pF
if I add another scope probe, and change the zero of analog ch 2, the two analog curves align perfectly, and there is no jitter between the two, as expected.
the ahead time of digital is 16nS (and full of jitter) and can be compensated for in the digital menu, (but dont affect the jitter) this works fine as long as the trigger is analog.
IF the trigger is digital (and you are not unint analogs at all) the deskew adjustment dont work.
but in that case the delay trigger can be used to get it all back on track,
it is no big deal as long as you know what you are playing with.
but another day i need to work on real signals, it could be cool if the scope was in zero when i read zero on curves :-)
-
Did you use the values than TK has shown on the HP probe? Also since you are not using a controlled impedance cable, this will have an effect on the waveform at the digital comparator. I don't have a LA so maybe someone with the proper LA can comment on what you are seeing. This is not good performance IMO, how can you determine a narrow logic pulse from this if all the logic edges have than much uncertainty?
Hopefully using the POD with a controlled impedance cable between the POD and the base unit as Siglent and the HP system do, will give better results without this jitter effect. Don't think TK indicated any of this effect with the adapted HP base, cables and POD.
When do you expect the POD PCBs to arrive, and do you have a controlled impedance cable, either a coaxial as Siglent uses, or a twisted pair as HP utilized? A standard ribbon cable may have issues of it's own, which will complicate things even more.
Anyway, good progress so far!!
Best,
-
this is how short it is, no cables :-)
so no reflections, and no delays..
sure there will be delays with cables, and then we need to find the deskew values,
the pod pcb's show up next week,
and by the way, the scope jitter is compared to real data pulse resolution. completely irrelevant , it is just me being to hard to pleasure.
-
Yes, but you can't see what's going on inside the scope, or at the connector interface to the PCB, or the other side of scope connector on the scope PCB which I believe is a 50 ohm connector, or at the comparator inputs where the logic decision is made. Maybe someone with the proper OEM Logic Analyzer can comment on if this is typical performance.
Best,
-
all i hear is 91k // 8p2 impedance, must be the input, so it works for both dc, and hi speed and is well protected for over/under voltage.
and with this in series, the logic levels should be correctly decoded,
i also tried the custom level and trimmed it way up and way down,
it only created more confusion, not answers.. :-)
i cant wait for you to play some more with all this too, feels like i am a bit alone in this battle,
I sanded all scope pcb's and right now testing the 6th generation 3D printed shell
-
Please take a look at the Spice models for the interface here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/25/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/25/)
Note the HP model resistor and capacitor values. Note that the digital inputs to the probe wire tip "sees" a 250 ohms series resistor then a 91k in parallel with 8.2pF which then feeds the twisted pair cable shown as a 137 ohm transmission line. The other end of the transmission line is terminated to the scope input with some series 370 ohms and shunt 100k (which I don't think matters) and the shunt caps. The shunt caps might represent the capacitance as seen by the PCB that interfaces with the scope connector, this was from the HP schematic provided (the values don't seem unreasonable for the lumped sum of these distributed capacitances).
Best,
-
Hello Thomas,
i have tried to reproduce this issue with my adapter.
There is no jitter between analog and digital inputs visible on the screen.
But there defenitly is jitter of -18ns to +12ns as can be seen on the measurement!
Looks like this jitter is compensated for display.
Which firmware are you running? Mine is 1.3.7R5.
On the previous release i had some quirks too.
73 Walter
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Hello Walter,
What logic adapter are you using, is this the OEM Siglent?
Best,
-
No, it is diy too.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3094410/#msg3094410 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3094410/#msg3094410)
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here you go Walter
looks like we got exactly the same kind of jitter, and my software is also the latest like yours,
-
So this begs the question does the OEM Siglent Logic Analyzer display this kind of behavior?
Maybe tautech can do a quick test for us ::)
Best,
-
So this begs the question does the OEM Siglent Logic Analyzer display this kind of behavior?
Maybe tautech can do a quick test for us ::)
Best,
Sure but latererer as have another project on for a few hours........
-
now with 4ch, they track just fine, and the jitter is exactly the same on them all,
I trig on analog ch1
-
and see the difference, here i trig on D1
now all digitals are perfectly stable to each other, but the analog jitter
-
With SPL2016.
-
cool tubularnut
and please try trig on D0
now you see the analog go blury ? and jitter, the same as the digitals did,
I say your jitter is exactly the same, try using the same 10nS / div
-
Ok, looks very similar.
-
exactly the same.. I hope most people use the LA with together with Analog channels on slow stuff, since then it is not that visible.
-
... and in case there is any doubt as to what I was using.
Also I know it’s not the best connection for signal integrity or impedance matching, but just using what I had to hand.
-
tubularnut ?
how do you think the scope shell is assembled ?
glue ? ultra sonic welded ? or just a screw under the sticker ?
we are dying to see one, inside, nice close ups :-)
possible also of the lock and press mecanics.
-
The oem probe should behave the same.
As Thomas already mentioned in the video the +/-2ns jitter is normal due to the 500Mhz sampling frequency of the digital acquisition.
And of course you will see this jitter on all analog channels if trigger on a digital channel.
@Thomas
I believe your divider is overcompensated. In the video you got -16ns skew a about 4ns risetime, now at 13ns risetime it is only -8ns skew.
The skew should be independent of risetime at approximatly -4ns. This value is due to the missing coax extension between adapter and pods on the oem probe.
It can be eleminated by deskew setting of digital inputs.
edit:
@tubularnut
Just saw your reply. Seems like you also have -4ns with the oem probe. How long was the coax from tee to C1 input?
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tubularnut ?
how do you think the scope shell is assembled ?
glue ? ultra sonic welded ? or just a screw under the sticker ?
we are dying to see one, inside, nice close ups :-)
possible also of the lock and press mecanics.
I will have a closer look tomorrow evening as I am out during the day
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is there an official bug reporting thread somewhere ?
that siglent monitor ?
maybe here on eevblog ? or somewhere else ?
I think i found a bug,
my siglent SPD3303X got odd random time delay between analog channels and logic analyzer.
or ? am i doing something wrong here ?
or is this really how it is supposed to be ?
https://youtu.be/WzokRBxDM-g
PS: i am using my own logic analyzer input pcb, but as you see now with my latest speed trimmed resistor values
the digital to digital channels are perfectly fine, with in 2nS jitter = normal = the time resolution for LA.
This should be very easy to recreate, 25MHz 5V signal
Can you explain why you think there is some kind of "bug" in scope.
When your trigger come from D0-15 this trigger engine is based to simple 0-1 transition. Detector is simple comparator with some hysteresis and user settable threshold. Sampling interval 2ns (500MSa/s). One sample occur below threshold and with next one level is crossed over threshold, more or less. There is available only this information and so there is nothing for adjust this analog signal position. We really do not know where inside 2ns period this threshold have crossed and more... signal is just 1 or 0. There is no information for make fine interpolation.
Of course if we really know that this analog signal is perfectly same what digital channel see, we can think it is possible to do nice image where analog signal image is fake adjusted for nearly zero jitter. But how it works when analog channel signal is not at all from same what is going to digital channel.
Without further evidences and with these displayed "data". Looks like the "bug" is more in understanding how oscilloscope works and not inside oscilloscope.
Other note, about skew adjustment do not work when only digital channels are in use. Skew between what signal.
Also it looks bit weird that diy LA probe things are all handled here is common SDS2000XPlus thread. My opinion is that it is lot of better if whole this thing have its own thread... but accident have happen so walking back to history and change it...
This LA Diy project is interesting and nice project so I think it earn its own thread where these things can keep concentrated to just it.
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edit:
@tubularnut
Just saw your reply. Seems like you also have -4ns with the oem probe. How long was the coax from tee to C1 input?
Yes, I realised the length of the coax would affect the reading after I posted. It was approx 75cm. LA lead is approx 1 meter.
Taken again with coax replaced by coupler (5cm) at 10kHz. Of course, LA lead is still 1 meter.
Also view at 10Mhz
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How is your digital channel state threshold level.
If you adjust it (using custom threshold) , you can see how it affect.
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How is your digital channel state threshold level.
If you adjust it (using custom threshold) , you can see how it affect.
Thank you.
Digital threshold was set to 1.6V, same as the analog channel.
If I bring the digital threshold down to 1.13V, I can get the skew to zero on rising and falling edge :)
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tubularnut ?
how do you think the scope shell is assembled ?
glue ? ultra sonic welded ? or just a screw under the sticker ?
we are dying to see one, inside, nice close ups :-)
possible also of the lock and press mecanics.
The cases appear to be ultrasonically welded, so it would be destructive to get a look inside, sorry.
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So this begs the question does the OEM Siglent Logic Analyzer display this kind of behavior?
Maybe tautech can do a quick test for us ::)
Best,
Sure but latererer as have another project on for a few hours........
Digital trigger analog channel jitter ? :-//
Test setup:
SDG1032X BNC to croc leads
3.3Vp-p
40ns pulse @ 150 KHz ......16.8ns rise and fall times.
SDS5054X SDS5104X ;)
SPL2016
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1192672)
Yes there is some digital to analog jitter but where from ?
Both units NOT referenced so one thinks system jitter.
Some infinite persistence and cursors:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1192676)
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Of course there is jitter between digital and analog when trigger is in digital channel. It is how it works.
There is no way to fine interpolate/fine adjust analog channel because trigger is from digital. There is no data for fine interpolate between true sample points. Digital side most fast sample interval is 0.8ns in SDS5000X. And 2ns in SDS2000Xplus
Now just pen and paper and plot sample points and when you randomize these related to true input signal you can see where from come system jitter. Only way to reduce this jitter is rising digital channel sample speed. Basic jitter is +/- 1 sample interval. In digital side there is no way to fine interpolation trigger (signal placement) between true sample points. When trig is in digital side analog signal position can walk where ever between these samples. Information for placement can not produce from nothing.
Nearly as hard fact that energy can not develop from nothing. Naturally there ia also something more jitter than just this ideal minimum jitter what is just based to sample interval.
Analog channel trigger engine works totally different. And when use it, now this digital channel sample interval jitter is in digital side. Pen and sheet of grid paper and thinking is most advanced problem analyzer. ;)
Of course in real world there is then some other jitter mechanism what are then included in total jitter. Starting from not ideal digital channels trigger comparator and ... couple of other things.
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comments to
#2484
>I believe your divider is overcompensated. In the video you got -16ns skew a about 4ns risetime, now at 13ns risetime it is only -8ns skew.
Dont look at the fixed skew, i played with the settings in the deskew menu, and i expect all other users will do the same, it is a cable length compensation factor,
none of us will use the same factor here.
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#2486
>Can you explain why you think there is some kind of "bug" in scope.
the 2nS digital time resolution i understand and accept.
BUT the bug as i see it, is the RANDOM time jitter from digital to analog, it is also within the 2nS sample time,
but it is RANDOM, I would expect it to jump in fixed 2nS hops, not anythng in between,
it looks like someone tried to smooth this, or avarage it, by adding random time jitter.
>This LA Diy project is interesting and nice project so I think it earn its own thread where these things can keep concentrated to just it.
YES Agree, there is, mine is here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/)
but all this is more related to general usage of LA and analogs, and triggers, and skew, deskew adjustment,
the fixed and the random jitter, all this apply (like we have proven) to any type of LA hardware, DIY or original.
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#2489
>Digital threshold was set to 1.6V, same as the analog channel.
>If I bring the digital threshold down to 1.13V, I can get the skew to zero on rising and falling edge
YES if the incoming wave is with rise/fall times slower that the skew, changing digital trigger point, will "move" the curve seen on screen in time,
however this is not the right way, better to have the trigger in the middle and use the deskew feature to correct the cable length difference.
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#2490
>The cases appear to be ultrasonically welded, so it would be destructive to get a look inside, sorry.
darn it.. but thanks alot for looking into it anyways,
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#2491
>Yes there is some digital to analog jitter but where from ?
YES your jitter looks the same as all ours, about 2nS and random,
you would expect it to be in fixed 2nS jumps.
This scope got a VERY fast timebase, to be used for its very fast scope features, however when combined with LA
the user must use a timebase of max 50nS/div or even better 100nS/div, this the random jitter is completely gone (invisible)
and we can focus on our real work and debugging of our hardware and software designs :-)
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#2486
>Can you explain why you think there is some kind of "bug" in scope.
the 2nS digital time resolution i understand and accept.
BUT the bug as i see it, is the RANDOM time jitter from digital to analog, it is also within the 2nS sample time,
but it is RANDOM, I would expect it to jump in fixed 2nS hops, not anythng in between,
it looks like someone tried to smooth this, or avarage it, by adding random time jitter.
Of course it is random. If it is not random then I am very alarmed what is going on there.
My small suggestion was previously: "Take just pen and grid paper and plot sample points using imagined signal edges and randomize these fixed interval samples position in every acquisition (not synchronous with input signal) not digital side nether analog side. Sampling clock walks its own rhythm. There come time to sample, digital signal is just below threshold... then come next sample and it is over threshold = trig. But it can not know if sample before threshold was just below threshold or just 2ns before - random position! Analog signal run there also.. but digital side trigger can occur up to 2ns wrong place. And how wrong it is, it is random. So analog signal have random position jitter. Signal true rising edge can be where ever inside this 2ns if all works ideally. Naturally there is also some other things what add sjome jitter so in practice it is more.
I do not know any method to remove this jitter. If not like this "fat" edge then turn scope acquisition to slow acquisition mode instead of fast mode. But jitter itself stay, but in one TFT screen only one acquisition..
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@oz2cpu
Some good thinking but not taking everything into account.
Let's recap:
Input signal connected to digital ch, wil get quantized to 2ns, so incoming edge will be detected on either neighbouring sampling intervals of digital input. When looking at input signal that is not phase coherent with the scope (as it won't be), that edge will jump around 2 ns.
In addtion to fact thet analog signals having 4x quicker sampling rate that gives sampling period of 500 ps, by virtue of being analog, they also can interpolate between samples, and indeed, Siglent is using interpolator that allows estimating trigger position on order of 2-10 ps, much better than sampling rate itself.
So when you're triggering from analog channel you get exact trigger time position. For same signal in parallel, digital channel can only decide for sampling edge before or edge after, depending on where exactly edge is...So it will jitter back and forth..
Sa will any system that has two separate clock domains.
If you will, you can also look at this a resampling signal coming in with one clock being resampled with another system that has different sampling clock with fractional ratio to original clock. And you have quantization errors, showing as jitter.
Analog channel has interpolation, and can extract subsampling resolution and recover original timing information
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#2484
>I believe your divider is overcompensated. In the video you got -16ns skew a about 4ns risetime, now at 13ns risetime it is only -8ns skew.
Dont look at the fixed skew, i played with the settings in the deskew menu, and i expect all other users will do the same, it is a cable length compensation factor,
none of us will use the same factor here.
You are complaining on 2ns jitter but ignoring more then 10ns variable timing error due to impulse response of the voltage divider?
#2486
>Can you explain why you think there is some kind of "bug" in scope.
the 2nS digital time resolution i understand and accept.
BUT the bug as i see it, is the RANDOM time jitter from digital to analog, it is also within the 2nS sample time,
but it is RANDOM, I would expect it to jump in fixed 2nS hops, not anythng in between,
it looks like someone tried to smooth this, or avarage it, by adding random time jitter.
This "randomnes" is simply the interference between the input signal frequency and the samplerate, strobed by display rate.
If you use a signal which is phase coherent to samplerate the jitter reduces to about 45ps.
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>This "randomnes" is simply the interference between the input signal frequency and the samplerate, strobed by display rate.
YES and the fact that digital 500MHz clock, and 2GHz analog part clock, is NOT from the same main source,
they are free running, that is the only way I can explain the digital to analog part , sub pS jitter, in compleete random time.
if this is a wanted "feature" or ignoring in the long run, I dont know yet,
how is this on other brands ? I can surely compare at work with R&S and other brands too
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>This "randomnes" is simply the interference between the input signal frequency and the samplerate, strobed by display rate.
YES and the fact that digital 500MHz clock, and 2GHz analog part clock, is NOT from the same main source,
they are free running, that is the only way I can explain the digital to analog part , sub pS jitter, in compleete random time.
if this is a wanted "feature" or ignoring in the long run, I dont know yet,
how is this on other brands ? I can surely compare at work with R&S and other brands too
[attach=1]
The clocks must be from the same source. Look at this: Triggered on a digital channel, signalgen synchronized to scope clock, 50Mhz/1ns . There is absolute no jitter visiable!
There is still a variable delay from 0 to 2ns, but it stays stable even if changing timebase.
2Ghz and 500Mhz clocks are coherent but not time-synchronized.
Maybe in a later firmeware release it will be possible to resync the 2Ghz to the 500 Mhz?
Edit: 2nd screenshot with unsynced siggen to compare
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>This "randomnes" is simply the interference between the input signal frequency and the samplerate, strobed by display rate.
YES and the fact that digital 500MHz clock, and 2GHz analog part clock, is NOT from the same main source,
they are free running, that is the only way I can explain the digital to analog part , sub pS jitter, in compleete random time.
if this is a wanted "feature" or ignoring in the long run, I dont know yet,
how is this on other brands ? I can surely compare at work with R&S and other brands too
Did you ignore my post or didn't understand me?
Problem is because external signal clock and scope clock is not from the same clock domain.
It is resampling of one frequency with other frequency. Scope digital channels are asynchronously sampling input signal.
There will be rounding errors.
Of course scope digital and analog clock source is same, divided by different divider.
But analog oscilloscope is time domain instrument and it will try to follow input signal as good as possible.
Since analog channel possesses accurate reconstruction of signal, it can, in fact, very accurately estimate where signal passed through the trigger point, and it will adjust (in time) signal representation on the screen. So it is sampling at 500 ps intervals, but internal scope timebase has sub ps resolution, and will shift signal representation to the exact place signal is, better than sampling rate.
So phenomenon you see is actual real show how your digital channels see and detect incoming edges. That 2 ns jitter is timing uncertainty of digital edge detection, with signal coming from the outside world..
Analog channel is ideal (lets say so in this case, comparatively) representation of incoming signal, synchronous down to few ps with real life input.
And to answer the incoming question, all (good) digital scope do the same. Some have higher digital sample rate, so uncertainty is smaller. Keysight 3000T also does the same, and funny enough, they draw digital channels traces such that in your case they would use 2 ns thick vertical transition. A solid block, signifying that edge is "somewhere in there".
If you wish I can later take a screen grab to demonstrate it.
And now to why. Well, as you already said before, debugging computer adr/data busses is not really something people do nowadays (unless you're into retro computing, and for that you need 32 channels to start with or more when you include all control signals). For serial busses it's plenty enough...
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Not to clutter up the great dialog going on, I agree with 2N3055 assessment of what is being displayed, also good job of explaining :-+
Best,
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The oem probe should behave the same.
As Thomas already mentioned in the video the +/-2ns jitter is normal due to the 500Mhz sampling frequency of the digital acquisition.
And of course you will see this jitter on all analog channels if trigger on a digital channel.
@Thomas
I believe your divider is overcompensated. In the video you got -16ns skew a about 4ns risetime, now at 13ns risetime it is only -8ns skew.
The skew should be independent of risetime at approximatly -4ns. This value is due to the missing coax extension between adapter and pods on the oem probe.
It can be eleminated by deskew setting of digital inputs.
edit:
@tubularnut
Just saw your reply. Seems like you also have -4ns with the oem probe. How long was the coax from tee to C1 input?
There is also jitter among the digital channels, I am not an expert and I assume the digital channel acquisition is serialized, so actual sample rate to determine possible jitter should be 500MSa/s divided by 16 (number of channels) or 50 nanoseconds? I don't have the scope anymore to test, but it is what I observed once and I tried to compare it to higher end Agilent Logic Analyzers with 2GSa/s or more and still can see the jitter.
As I said, I am not an expert and just curious to see if my assumptions are correct. I would appreciate any feedback from the gurus on this forum.
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good point TK, if I go all digital, turn off analog..
trig on a digital, feed in the same signal to them all 16, i tried that.
And all digitals are +/- 2nS and they all jitter together at that exact time frame, there is nothing in between,
all results can ONLY be on a 2nS line..
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The oem probe should behave the same.
As Thomas already mentioned in the video the +/-2ns jitter is normal due to the 500Mhz sampling frequency of the digital acquisition.
And of course you will see this jitter on all analog channels if trigger on a digital channel.
@Thomas
I believe your divider is overcompensated. In the video you got -16ns skew a about 4ns risetime, now at 13ns risetime it is only -8ns skew.
The skew should be independent of risetime at approximatly -4ns. This value is due to the missing coax extension between adapter and pods on the oem probe.
It can be eleminated by deskew setting of digital inputs.
edit:
@tubularnut
Just saw your reply. Seems like you also have -4ns with the oem probe. How long was the coax from tee to C1 input?
There is also jitter among the digital channels, I am not an expert and I assume the digital channel acquisition is serialized, so actual sample rate to determine possible jitter should be 500MSa/s divided by 16 (number of channels) or 50 nanoseconds? I don't have the scope anymore to test, but it is what I observed once and I tried to compare it to higher end Agilent Logic Analyzers with 2GSa/s or more and still can see the jitter.
As I said, I am not an expert and just curious to see if my assumptions are correct. I would appreciate any feedback from the gurus on this forum.
Well, not a guru, by far, but happen to know a bit about it.
@TK, all 16 channels are acquired in parallel. Otherwise it would be 2ns*16=32ns uncertainty (31,25 Msps/sec), any you would be able to see nice staircase in digital channel display.
But, digital channels cannot be all the same, there will be some small differences in level threshold between channels. So if you feed, for instance, slow edge, there will be some observed metastability, right there on the logic level threshold, and some channels could trigger within sample period apart. Put that together with some noise , and it can happen.
To test, it would need clean fast pulse source, with impedance low enough to drive all 16 digital channels capacities in parallel and keep edges still fast enough, let's say less than 5ns risetime 10/90 (so it goes through threshold +- channel detection level spread in less than 1 ns), and then see if there is difference between channels.
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There is also jitter among the digital channels, I am not an expert and I assume the digital channel acquisition is serialized, so actual sample rate to determine possible jitter should be 500MSa/s divided by 16 (number of channels) or 50 nanoseconds? I don't have the scope anymore to test, but it is what I observed once and I tried to compare it to higher end Agilent Logic Analyzers with 2GSa/s or more and still can see the jitter.
As I said, I am not an expert and just curious to see if my assumptions are correct. I would appreciate any feedback from the gurus on this forum.
No, there is no internal jitter, neither in between digital channels nor to analog channels. Its all about differrent clock domains between Scope aquisition and DUT.
Look at this one: Walking bit test pattern from a PSOC3 µC which clock is derived from scope awg: No jitter at all, but granularity of digital channels stays at 2ns.
C1 is the derived clock, each bit schould be 20ns wide. Bit 0,1 and 4 are displayed 2ns shorter, maybe the internal propagation delays of the PSOC are more than 1ns off.
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...No, there is no internal jitter..
Clock and timing jitter always exists, but the magnitude may be small enough to not be relevant for a particular system.
Even the ADC12DJ5200RF is limited by jitter.
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I promised to show example from MSOX3000T from Keysight:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/?action=dlattach;attach=1193182;image)
Faster sampling on digital (1.25 GSa/s as opposed to 500MSa/s) but same phenomenon. +-800ps uncertainty interval.
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I’ve spent days reading the 100+ pages of this thread, as well as some other threads, and watched many videos on YouTube. Thanks mainly to the enthusiasm here, on EEVblog, I decided that a Siglent SDS2104X Plus is the oscilloscope that I would like to have.
I noticed that the Siglent models appear virtually identical to the Teledyne LeCroy T3DSO2000A series (whilst other Siglent oscilloscopes appear identical to BK Precision oscilloscopes). What is the relationship between Teledyne LeCroy and Siglent? Are the latter manufacturing the same machines under licence from the former? Since Siglent has a presence in North America, I doubt they just copied the machines they’re making. Also, other than the identical aesthetics and similar specs, is the hardware identical between the two? (One thing I know for sure is that the Teledyne LeCroy models are 2-3x more expensive than the Siglent models.)
On a different note: does anyone have experience purchasing Siglent equipment in Canada? On Siglent’s website I found only two vendors: RCC Electronics in Toronto and Techno-Test in Montréal. Any other suggestions, hints, advice? Thank you!
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I noticed that the Siglent models appear virtually identical to the Teledyne LeCroy T3DSO2000A series (whilst other Siglent oscilloscopes appear identical to BK Precision oscilloscopes). What is the relationship between Teledyne LeCroy and Siglent?
Close, they have worked together for close to a decade AFAIK.
BK Precision sell a number of Siglent models rebranded especially for them.
A few others and certainly not an exhaustive list is here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/remember-when-siglents-logo-wasnt-ugly/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/remember-when-siglents-logo-wasnt-ugly/)
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I promised to show example from MSOX3000T from Keysight:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/?action=dlattach;attach=1193182;image)
Faster sampling on digital (1.25 GSa/s as opposed to 500MSa/s) but same phenomenon. +-800ps uncertainty interval.
Think this shows that the digital edge uncertainty is +- 1 sample period of the clock used to sample the digital comparator output, so the faster the sample rate, the lower the uncertainty for fast edge digital waveforms. Also this means that the interface circuitry to the digital comparator should present a fast edge waveform and not limit the slew rate to below what can produce a +-2 sample period uncertainty. In other words maintain digital input waveform edge integrity at the digital decision circuitry, the comparator, to achieve the lowest digital waveform uncertainty!
Best,
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Thank you, tautech! That’s very interesting to know!!!
Hence would it be fair to say that buying a Siglent SDS2000X Plus machine would get us similar features to those of a T3DSO2000A machine, comparable hardware performance and build quality, but at a much cheaper price? If yes, life is beautiful! :popcorn:
So the BK Precision oscilloscopes are in fact Siglent machines, and not the other way around... Nice!
Quote from: tautech on Today at 18:30:17 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=218238.msg3509314#msg3509314)
>Quote from: Michael YYZ on Today at 18:15:13 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=218238.msg3509294#msg3509294)I noticed that the Siglent models appear virtually identical to the Teledyne LeCroy T3DSO2000A series (whilst other Siglent oscilloscopes appear identical to BK Precision oscilloscopes).
What is the relationship between Teledyne LeCroy and Siglent?
Close, they have worked together for close to a decade AFAIK.
BK Precision sell a number of Siglent models rebranded especially for them.
A few others and certainly not an exhaustive list is here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/remember-when-siglents-logo-wasnt-ugly/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/remember-when-siglents-logo-wasnt-ugly/)
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Thank you, tautech! That’s very interesting to know!!!
Hence would it be fair to say that buying a Siglent SDS2000X Plus machine would get us similar features to those of a T3DSO2000A machine, comparable hardware performance and build quality, but at a much cheaper price?
If yes, life is beautiful! :popcorn:
So the BK Precision oscilloscopes are in fact Siglent machines, and not the other way around... Nice!
At one time firmware in some Siglent rebrands was better than Siglents but that was many years ago and AFAIK today Siglent releases firmware more frequently than their rebrands do.
Generally Siglent pricing is better than their rebrands as they are the OEM however some parts of the world have rebrand marketing agreements where you can't buy Siglents locally.....USSR I believe is such an area but there are marketing deals all over the place and one is SDS3000 and its later version SDS3000X for which LeCroy have all western marketing rights.
BTW, dive into your profile and turn WYSIWYG to OFF then you get a better reply structure to work with when you Quote someone. ;)
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Thanks for the feedback about WYSIWYG switch, the quote structure looked really weird. Let’s see now... EDIT: Yay, it works! :D
Also, your insight about the maze of all this OEM and equipment rebranding strategy is very interesting. We’re very to have access to Siglent directly, or at least for most of their products.
At one time firmware in some Siglent rebrands was better than Siglents but that was many years ago and AFAIK today Siglent releases firmware more frequently than their rebrands do.
Generally Siglent pricing is better than their rebrands as they are the OEM however some parts of the world have rebrand marketing agreements where you can't buy Siglents locally.....USSR I believe is such an area but there are marketing deals all over the place and one is SDS3000 and its later version SDS3000X for which LeCroy have all western marketing rights.
BTW, dive into your profile and turn WYSIWYG to OFF then you get a better reply structure to work with when you Quote someone. ;)
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That's amazing the scopes look nearly identical, except the price of the LeCroy is two times higher than the Siglent.
Wonder what the differences are, other than the name & Logo?
LeCroy T3DSO2354A $6,003.00
Siglent SDS2354X Plus $2,999.00
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If I understand correctly the responses above, the LeCroy, BKP, etc. units are rebranded OEM Siglents. So virtually similar hardware for all. The main differences would be variations in the firmware, the nameplate and, of course, the price.
That's amazing the scopes look nearly identical, except the price of the LeCroy is two times higher than the Siglent.
Wonder what the differences are, other than the name & Logo?
LeCroy T3DSO2354A $6,003.00
Siglent SDS2354X Plus $2,999.00
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If I understand correctly the responses above, the LeCroy, BKP, etc. units are rebranded OEM Siglents. So virtually similar hardware for all. The main differences would be variations in the firmware, the nameplate and, of course, the price.
If any at all.
When you know who the OEM is you can check their FW versions against rebranded versions.
https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=53
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That's amazing the scopes look nearly identical, except the price of the LeCroy is two times higher than the Siglent.
Wonder what the differences are, other than the name & Logo?
LeCroy T3DSO2354A $6,003.00
Siglent SDS2354X Plus $2,999.00
They are same, some times possible that FW update versions are not published just in same time).
Of course when buy LeCroy you buy also LeCroy whole support and you buy Siglent you buy Siglent whole support. For company or institutional buyers this is many times very important thing. Tens of years with good reputation... in one bad case with lack of support may cost many times this price difference.
There is some difference even when Siglent is slowly developing also given support better and better. Road is still hard and full of rocks..
Fun think is that just this LeCroy model in image is named as 500MHz model what Siglent do not have at all.... oh but wait...
Take both data sheets face to face and look.
In data sheet this LeCroy is just same as Siglent SDS2354X Plus with 500MHz upgrade what can use for 2 channel when both ADC work in interleaved mode.
Btw, LeCroy have also mistake in they introduction. They tell BodePlot can up to 500MHz with 500MHz generator.
But, in LeCroy data sheet it is just same limit (due to reasons) max 120MHz.
Also when some (not citizen people) buy from LeCroy perhaps they buy more than just one single scope, perhaps have been LeCroy customer years.. and when they ask final total... it is "perhaps" bit different than MSRP. There is bit differend deal negotiation if compare to some web shops "supermarket" who sell oscilloscopes etc just like pants, shoes and fishing things.
You click, pay and wait parcel. There do not come experienced engineer(s) to your company for look and design together best solution for your needs...
do individual hobbyist need these... mostly no. So, pay less and buy original Sig... and ask free support here or if you are enough clever solve your problems alone. Most of problems are between chair and instrument ... least if study this forum. Still of course, without overlooking or forget real problems what also exist.
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One change for sure, to remove the ‘Siglent’ name from the display graphics. :-DD
If I understand correctly the responses above, the LeCroy, BKP, etc. units are rebranded OEM Siglents. So virtually similar hardware for all. The main differences would be variations in the firmware, the nameplate and, of course, the price.
If any at all.
When you know who the OEM is you can check their FW versions against rebranded versions.
https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=53
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One change for sure, to remove the ‘Siglent’ name from the display graphics.
Not for all:
The predecessor to SDS2000X Plus: SDS2000X
(https://bkpmedia.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/2569-MSO_front_lrg.jpg)
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Hi
From yesterday I am an SDS2104x Plus owner :). I wonder how I will find the codes to enable the option bundle, according to the siglent promo? I know that is active until 31 Mar 2021.
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Hi
From yesterday I am an SDS2104x Plus owner :). I wonder how I will find the codes to enable the option bundle, according to the siglent promo? I know that is active until 31 Mar 2021.
My SDS2104X+ also showed up yesterday from TEquipment here in the states; the option bundle promo stuff was already activated on my scope but also in the box with the probes were a bundle of papers with the codes on them too.
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I have no papers with codes included in the probe box :-// ... but YES!!! the bundle is allready activated. You are right :-+.
Is this normal? :-\
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I have no papers with codes included in the probe box :-// ... but YES!!! the bundle is allready activated. You are right :-+.
Is this normal? :-\
Yes, units fresh from the factory have the promotional bundle of free options already installed and there is zero accompanying paperwork.
When/if additional options are installed before sale it is the resellers choice if the paperwork accompanies the scope as it's faster to install options from PC via the webrowser where there is less chance of error by using Copy/Paste. ;)
That way we can save some forest ::) by not needing to print out the licenses.
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I just replaced my fan today with the Noctua NF-A9 FLX. I mainly did it because the stock fan had an annoying low frequency pulsing noise; it was nice that the Noctua has better stats too. The only 'difficult' part is that the stock fan uses a JST-XH 2 pin connector so you'll either need to get a new housing and two contacts and crimp it onto the Noctua or cut off the stock fan connector and solder it to the Noctua. I ended up just cutting and soldering the connector from the stock fan onto the Noctua. Otherwise it's a simple affair, take the back off, unscrew the stock fan, screw the new fan in, back put back on, done. It works great, it's a little quieter but mainly it's a consistent white noise now, no pulsing sound so I don't mind leaving the scope turned on all day if needed.
Hello there,
forum newbie first time posting :-[
After spending days of reading through all the SDS2000X Plus related threads on this forum, I got myself an SDS2104X+ as an upgrade to my old Rigol DS2072A. The main reasons for this purchase were the 4 channels and the "LeCroy-like" UI of the Siglent scope.
Having played around with the new scope for quite a while, I am pretty impressed of the functionality you get for the money (not to mention the upgrade capabilities...), so the Rigol went straight into the bay.
New stock SDS2104X Plus SN# range SDS2PDDD4R1*** are somewhat quieter than earlier units and it seems a slower fan has now been fitted.
Earlier Plus units were louder than SDS5000X once their smart fan had kicked back after boot but now they're about equal for fan noise.
My unit's SN is in the range tautech mentioned above but it still has the same fan equipped (ADDA AD0912DS-A70GL). Although it is no comparison to the screaming fan in the Rigol scope, I am thinking about replacing the stock fan with a more silent one (e.g. Noctua NF-A9 FLX), because of some annoying low frequency noise.
Has anyone already replaced the stock fan and can share some experience?
What about the unpopulated 4-pin fan connector?
Thanks a lot!
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mine is brand new
serial SDS2PDDC5R....
and i do hear low pitched vibration / interferience from blades ?
it is not loud, and so far it is not ignoring, but a whole day of work, i prefer it to be a bit less
did you take some pictures of your fan mod ?
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a little bit of sound level measurements, so the human detector is out of the equation,
dba slow, 35cm units front to mic, sensor lifted 10 cm over table
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Spectrum could be interesting as well. The less peaks the better.
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Apologies for my ignorance, but is this a DPO (Digital Phosphor Oscilloscope) machine? I can see that it is labelled SPO (Super Phosphor Oscilloscope), which could be an indication or just a marketing exercise, whereas the virtually identical LeCroy T3DSO2000A oscilloscope is labelled DSO (Digital Storage Oscilloscope).
Based on what it can do, including the ability to spot transient occurrences within repetitive signals, as well as the 256 colour gradation, I am inclined to think that the Siglent model is indeed a DPO. But does it employ the typical parallel data processing architecture that is specific to DPOs, thus eliminating the dead time between triggering events in DSOs? If true, does it mean that it uses the colour gradation to display the z-axis information for the number of similar occurrences of a waveform?
Or, instead, it simply has the adjustment for trace persistence that most DSOs provide, and only serial data processing?
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YES to it all, Michael
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It is a DSO. In my opinion DPO / SPO is just a marketing naming.
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Well, based on my understanding, not exactly so. From what I've read, the major difference is another type of architecture: parallel vs. serial (e.g. https://www.tek.com/document/online/primer/xyzs-scopes/ch2/oscilloscope-types (https://www.tek.com/document/online/primer/xyzs-scopes/ch2/oscilloscope-types)). This would allow SPOs to achieve the following:
- Capture signal data continuously, with no dead times, so not to miss any infrequent glitches in the signal; and
- Represent the waveform using different intensity, usually different shade of colour, as a function of the repeatability of the signal
Surely not all oscilloscopes do the above, so there must be differences between the two oscilloscope architecture. What IS confusing to me is the use of different marketing terminologies, e.g. Super Phosphor Oscilloscope (and DSO) by Siglent, or (only) Digital Storage Oscilloscope by Teledyne LeCroy, although an SPO is also a DPO, but the reverse may not be true.
In any case, I am happy that oz2cpu confirmed that this machine is indeed an SPO. :-+
It is a DSO. In my opinion DPO / SPO is just a marketing naming.
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IIRC, SPO/DPO just means it has an intensity graded display. That gives the display a more analog look. The Siglent SDS 2xxx Plus has a rating somewhere near 140k wave forms/sec. that would leave a min dead time of around 7 uSec between waveform captures.
Edit: fixed some spelling
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IIRC, SPO/DPO just means it has an intensity graded display. The Siglent SDS 2xxx Pls has a rating somewhere near 140k wave forms/sec. that would leave a min dead time of 7 uSec between waveform captures
140k wfm/s in very limited cases, at a certain timebase, etc etc. I agree SPO/DPO is just a fancier name for intensity graded display.
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IIRC, SPO/DPO just means it has an intensity graded display. The Siglent SDS 2xxx Pls has a rating somewhere near 140k wave forms/sec. that would leave a min dead time of 7 uSec between waveform captures
140k wfm/s in very limited cases, at a certain timebase, etc etc. I agree SPO/DPO is just a fancier name for intensity graded display.
Except that it is much more than just only intensity graded display. If there is overlaid example 1000 or 10 or 5000 acquisitions on one TFT frame, they all are there with full data - If we talk about Siglent SPO. They are not just only for produce intensity gradation on the TFT screen. If there is wfm speed 140000, and if TFT is updated 25 times per second there is 5600 captures in one TFT and overlaid. But they are not only producing intensity info. Example if you stop scope. You find every these captures stacked in memory with full ADC data and trig time stamp. (and mostly there is stacked more than just last TFT frame overlaid captures). Top speed is reached just with some settings and mostly it is lot of slower. But other side, it also keep least all latest TFT frame included overlaid captures separately in stack with full data and with trigger time stamp. You can try dismantle one Keysight TFT image... what yoy find. Last acquisition and then image pixels. Yes, nice to look... but I like more data than beautiful pictures except if I take scenery photo.
Intensity gradation is only just one feature what DPO/SPO give and not even most important. And this make it LOT of more than intensity gradation seen in analog scopes. Except that many scopes do it only for intensity gradation and for draw some anomaly to display (and only to display picture)
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IIRC, SPO/DPO just means it has an intensity graded display. The Siglent SDS 2xxx Pls has a rating somewhere near 140k wave forms/sec. that would leave a min dead time of 7 uSec between waveform captures
140k wfm/s in very limited cases, at a certain timebase, etc etc. I agree SPO/DPO is just a fancier name for intensity graded display.
Except that it is much more than just only intensity graded display. If there is overlaid example 1000 or 10 or 5000 acquisitions on one TFT frame, they all are there with full data - If we talk about Siglent SPO. They are not just only for produce intensity gradation on the TFT screen. If there is wfm speed 140000, and if TFT is updated 25 times per second there is 5600 captures in one TFT and overlaid. But they are not only producing intensity info. Example if you stop scope. You find every these captures stacked in memory with full ADC data and trig time stamp. (and mostly there is stacked more than just last TFT frame overlaid captures). Top speed is reached just with some settings and mostly it is lot of slower. But other side, it also keep least all latest TFT frame included overlaid captures separately in stack with full data and with trigger time stamp. You can try dismantle one Keysight TFT image... what yoy find. Last acquisition and then image pixels. Yes, nice to look... but I like more data than beautiful pictures except if I take scenery photo.
I would love to see an example of Siglent DPO/SPO vs others (KS, Rigol, etc) screen captures.
Intensity gradation is only just one feature what DPO/SPO give and not even most important. And this make it LOT of more than intensity gradation seen in analog scopes. Except that many scopes do it only for intensity gradation and for draw some anomaly to display (and only to display picture)
If the purpose is to only display the anomaly but you cannot trigger it, what is the final benefit vs KS? Isn't a scope that can trigger @ 200K Wfm/s or 1M Wfm/s better than the Siglent with 140K Wfm/s with DPO/SPO? It is my understanding that wfm/s is what also determines the trigger re-arming and capture capability, correct?
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IIRC, SPO/DPO just means it has an intensity graded display. The Siglent SDS 2xxx Pls has a rating somewhere near 140k wave forms/sec. that would leave a min dead time of 7 uSec between waveform captures
140k wfm/s in very limited cases, at a certain timebase, etc etc. I agree SPO/DPO is just a fancier name for intensity graded display.
Except that it is much more than just only intensity graded display. If there is overlaid example 1000 or 10 or 5000 acquisitions on one TFT frame, they all are there with full data - If we talk about Siglent SPO. They are not just only for produce intensity gradation on the TFT screen. If there is wfm speed 140000, and if TFT is updated 25 times per second there is 5600 captures in one TFT and overlaid. But they are not only producing intensity info. Example if you stop scope. You find every these captures stacked in memory with full ADC data and trig time stamp. (and mostly there is stacked more than just last TFT frame overlaid captures). Top speed is reached just with some settings and mostly it is lot of slower. But other side, it also keep least all latest TFT frame included overlaid captures separately in stack with full data and with trigger time stamp. You can try dismantle one Keysight TFT image... what yoy find. Last acquisition and then image pixels. Yes, nice to look... but I like more data than beautiful pictures except if I take scenery photo.
I would love to see an example of Siglent DPO/SPO vs others (KS, Rigol, etc) screen captures.
Intensity gradation is only just one feature what DPO/SPO give and not even most important. And this make it LOT of more than intensity gradation seen in analog scopes. Except that many scopes do it only for intensity gradation and for draw some anomaly to display (and only to display picture)
If the purpose is to only display the anomaly but you cannot trigger it, what is the final benefit vs KS? Isn't a scope that can trigger @ 200K Wfm/s or 1M Wfm/s better than the Siglent with 140K Wfm/s with DPO/SPO? It is my understanding that wfm/s is what also determines the trigger re-arming and capture capability, correct?
Of course destroyed HP - Keysight today - fast wfm/s have advantages. It is not nonsense. But I can see some kind of hype around it. Naturally more speed give less blind time and rare glitches finding probability rise. But, some times when listen KS it is like most important thing in scope. How much we use scope just for this glitch/anomaly hunting in real life, only one narrow range of use. If we are very clever we put scope for waiting anomaly and do other things. If need find first anomaly scope need run just one single wfm - if scope know what is anomaly - it can wait just this, so we need develop more clever scopes, not more fast scopes.. 1wfm/s is enough for this very rare glitch hunting (if we have this kind of AI scope, what do not yet exist even when LeCroy have bit exercised with some kind of... )
Future, I hope: If I can teach scope so it know what is normal good signal... it can then detect only these when these happen. No need capture anything... until there is what we want find. No need capture wfm... AI trigger engine can be a "duty officer" who monitors and looks for anomalies. No need fast update rate wfm display at all. We can teach and program cars to autonomous driving... how we can not teach oscilloscope for recognize anomalies.
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IIRC, SPO/DPO just means it has an intensity graded display. The Siglent SDS 2xxx Pls has a rating somewhere near 140k wave forms/sec. that would leave a min dead time of 7 uSec between waveform captures
140k wfm/s in very limited cases, at a certain timebase, etc etc. I agree SPO/DPO is just a fancier name for intensity graded display.
Except that it is much more than just only intensity graded display. If there is overlaid example 1000 or 10 or 5000 acquisitions on one TFT frame, they all are there with full data - If we talk about Siglent SPO. They are not just only for produce intensity gradation on the TFT screen. If there is wfm speed 140000, and if TFT is updated 25 times per second there is 5600 captures in one TFT and overlaid. But they are not only producing intensity info. Example if you stop scope. You find every these captures stacked in memory with full ADC data and trig time stamp. (and mostly there is stacked more than just last TFT frame overlaid captures). Top speed is reached just with some settings and mostly it is lot of slower. But other side, it also keep least all latest TFT frame included overlaid captures separately in stack with full data and with trigger time stamp. You can try dismantle one Keysight TFT image... what yoy find. Last acquisition and then image pixels. Yes, nice to look... but I like more data than beautiful pictures except if I take scenery photo.
It is not like Keysight (and other DSOs) don't have segmented recording where you can overlay frames. Siglent is in no way unique in that ability. Also the waveforms/s number is just a peak number for marketing wank. It is highly unlikely that a measurement requirement aligns precisely with the maximum waveform update rate. Trigger re-arm time is a much more meaningful number.
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IIRC, SPO/DPO just means it has an intensity graded display. The Siglent SDS 2xxx Pls has a rating somewhere near 140k wave forms/sec. that would leave a min dead time of 7 uSec between waveform captures
140k wfm/s in very limited cases, at a certain timebase, etc etc. I agree SPO/DPO is just a fancier name for intensity graded display.
Except that it is much more than just only intensity graded display. If there is overlaid example 1000 or 10 or 5000 acquisitions on one TFT frame, they all are there with full data - If we talk about Siglent SPO. They are not just only for produce intensity gradation on the TFT screen. If there is wfm speed 140000, and if TFT is updated 25 times per second there is 5600 captures in one TFT and overlaid. But they are not only producing intensity info. Example if you stop scope. You find every these captures stacked in memory with full ADC data and trig time stamp. (and mostly there is stacked more than just last TFT frame overlaid captures). Top speed is reached just with some settings and mostly it is lot of slower. But other side, it also keep least all latest TFT frame included overlaid captures separately in stack with full data and with trigger time stamp. You can try dismantle one Keysight TFT image... what yoy find. Last acquisition and then image pixels. Yes, nice to look... but I like more data than beautiful pictures except if I take scenery photo.
It is not like Keysight (and other DSOs) don't have segmented recording where you can overlay frames. Siglent is in no way unique in that ability. Also the waveforms/s number is just a peak number for marketing wank. It is highly unlikely that a measurement requirement aligns precisely with the maximum waveform update rate. Trigger re-arm time is a much more meaningful number.
|O :-DD |O
Start going to the so-called entertainment side.
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From what I can see from the brochures for the Teledyne Test Tools T3DSO2000A and the Siglent SDS2000X Plus oscilloscope brochures this machine can indeed display repetitive signals using different shades of colour. See attached screenshots from each device’s brochure, respectively.
If so, this would be useful for evaluating consistency and stability of waveforms. Has anyone used this feature? Does it work well?
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It is with SDS2000XPlus that it is not very good. There are definitely not 256 intensity gradations here, I could count no more than 16.
Rigol has better intensity (and color) grade implementation. :(
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From what I can see from the brochures for the Teledyne Test Tools T3DSO2000A and the Siglent SDS2000X Plus oscilloscope brochures this machine can indeed display repetitive signals using different shades of colour. See attached screenshots from each device’s brochure, respectively.
If so, this would be useful for evaluating consistency and stability of waveforms. Has anyone used this feature? Does it work well?
Color grading has been in Siglent DSO's for years and it does have its uses.
An example is here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1370717/#msg1370717)
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Examples are given from a different scope model. In sds2000X+, this is not implemented as well as sds1000X-E, unfortunately. This has already been discussed here.
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If so, this would be useful for evaluating consistency and stability of waveforms.
It is claimed as a key feature in the datasheet:
Supports 256-level intensity grade and color temperature display modes
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Unfortunately, my eyes and photoshop say that these levels are much less than 256. About 16 times :)
If Siglent claims 256 brightness levels in the specification, it is a hoax.
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Before the SDS2k+, I´ve owned a rigol mso5000....
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Martin, your pictures confirm my conclusions. There are no declared 256 levels. It is obvious.
Siglent displays colors and intensities much more roughly (visible "steps" from a small number of gradations). Maybe in one of the following firmwares it will be fixed ?!(I doubt it)
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I must be blind, I didn´t see that much difference between...
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For clarity, Martin, the screenshots I posted:
- Titled: “250-level Intensity Grading and Color Temperature Display” is from the T3DSO2000A brochure; and
- Titled: “Sequence Mode” is from the SDS2000X Plus brochure.
...but I understand that these two oscilloscopes are virtually identical. Or, are they not?...
Also, you quoted correctly below, from the SDS2000X Plus brochure.
So I’m clear now, the feature is there.
It is claimed as a key feature in the datasheet:
Supports 256-level intensity grade and color temperature display modes
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Martin, your pictures confirm my conclusions. There are no declared 256 levels. It is obvious.
Siglent displays colors and intensities much more roughly (visible "steps" from a small number of gradations). Maybe in one of the following firmwares it will be fixed ?!(I doubt it)
Siglent has much less noise, so pixels can group at certain values. Combine that with stroboscopic effect and you can easily get discrete distribution of pixels... Which can create discretization of gradation levels even with infinite steps in display engine.
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RTB2000, which has only 64 gradations, does not have such "steps". And it has significantly less noise due to the 10bit ADC.
SDS2000X+ is a very good scope for the money. But the intensity grade are not implemented well enough. Why claim otherwise? Let the manufacturer fix it, because this is only software problem.
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RTB2000, which has only 64 gradations, does not have such "steps". And it has significantly less noise due to the 10bit ADC.
SDS2000X+ is a very good scope for the money. But the intensity grade are not implemented well enough. Why claim otherwise? Let the manufacturer fix it, because this is only software problem.
Yes and no...
I was talking about front end (analog amplifiers before A/D converters) noise.
Despite 10 bit converter RTB2000 doesn't have less noise, but it has more resolution.
SDS2000X+ has low noise, combined with 8 bit resolution. Front end is quiet enough that you can see quantization steps on A/D converter.
RTB2000 has 4x more vertical points, and you cannot see quantization effects, because front end is noisier than A/D..
I'm not saying this is for sure a reason for this kind of rendering. But sure it can be. I don't have inside information and didn't design those scopes.
And not defending anybody, simply stating facts that it might not be that simple as it looks at first sight.
R&S is rendering to screen using some kind of pixel antialiasing algorithm. That is why waveforms look so smooth. Siglent doesn't do that. They scale and plot actual data points.
What is better? In the end it is philosophical (and aesthetical) question. One is "prettier" and looks "analog like". Other way might be considered true, and mathematically correct.
If you pull data from buffer, they will both give you clean data without any tampering.
I don't mind Siglents plotting. I know sampling can create artefacts (like moiré effect here) and don't care. I pretty much expect it..
If Siglent wants to spend development time on more eye pleasing CRT emulation, it is their choice.
I personally thing they should invest all the time they have enhancing and adding to analytic capabilities, which is where this scope shines in its price range.
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Aren't the posted examples quite revealing?
In Martin's post, both Rigol and Siglent intesity grading give the expected result, yet there are differences. Rigol rendering looks blotchy, almost as if intensity grading was accomplished by dithering instead of true pixel brightness variation.
By contrast, RTB2000 result appears rather poor. I cannot even see an increased intensity at the edges, like the signal had been a triangle instead of a sine. At a first glance, I cannot see much more than just two intensities in this screenshot.
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screenshoots dont reveal the whole truth
you need to see this live, it is like you take a screenshoot of a video, and the picture looks blured or wierd,
but in the video it looks nice and fine
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What probes are included from the factory with this machine?
- SDS2104X+: 4x PP215 - Correct?
- SDS2204X+: 4x PP430 ?
- SDS2354X+: 4x PP430 ?
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What probes are included from the factory with this machine?
- SDS2104X+: 4x PP215 - Correct?
- SDS2204X+: 4x PP430 ?
- SDS2354X+: 4x PP430 ?
My SDS2104X+ came with PP510, the 100MHz Siglent probes.
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Oh, really?! I thought I've read somewhere that the SDS2104X Plus comes with the PP215 200 MHz probes. Not that good if it comes with the PP510 100 MHz probes, since the scope has an ~180 MHz bandwidth, in reality.
Hopefully, someone here could confirm the status for the SDS2204X+ and SDS2354X+ machines... perhaps tautech?...
My SDS2104X+ came with PP510, the 100MHz Siglent probes.
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Yea, I ended up purchasing a set of Picoscope TA150 probes that are some 2.5mm 350MHz probes; it was a good deal and figured 350MHz is way more than enough for me.
Oh, really?! I thought I've read somewhere that the SDS2104X Plus comes with the PP215 200 MHz probes. Not that good if it comes with the PP510 100 MHz probes, since the scope has an ~180 MHz bandwidth, in reality.
Hopefully, someone here could confirm the status for the SDS2204X+ and SDS2354X+ machines... perhaps tautech?...
My SDS2104X+ came with PP510, the 100MHz Siglent probes.
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What probes are included from the factory with this machine?
- SDS2104X+: 4x PP215 - Correct?
- SDS2204X+: 4x PP430 ?
- SDS2354X+: 4x PP430 ?
From the datasheet P3:
Probe (standard)
SDS2354X Plus
SP2035A, 350 MHz, 1 probe supplied for each channel
SDS2204X Plus, SDS2104X Plus
PP215, 200 MHz, 1 probe supplied for each channel
My SDS2104X+ came with PP510, the 100MHz Siglent probes.
Claim the correct probes from your supplier.....PP215 are what you paid for !
SDS2104X Plus has a proven BW of ~185 MHz and therefore is shipped with 200 MHz probes.
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Here is attached official probe list, pdf.
"This is the current listing of probes that are included with SIGLENT scopes.
NOTE: Some of the products listed are obsolete, but are included for reference."
Also downloadable from Siglent https://siglentna.com/download/1877/
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What probes are included from the factory with this machine?
- SDS2104X+: 4x PP215 - Correct?
- SDS2204X+: 4x PP430 ?
- SDS2354X+: 4x PP430 ?
My SDS2104X+ came with PP510, the 100MHz Siglent probes.
What kind of seller have done this.
Btw, how "old stock" your purchased SDS2kXplus is.
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What kind of seller have done this.
Btw, how "old stock" your purchased SDS2kXplus is.
Never has my new stock of SDS2104X Plus arrived with PP510 probes....never !
Always PP215 from early 2020 when they were released.
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PP215 200s here from near release and also just got another one like a week ago and another set of PP215 200s
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Thank you so much! This document is exactly what I was looking for.
Here is attached official probe list, pdf.
"This is the current listing of probes that are included with SIGLENT scopes.
NOTE: Some of the products listed are obsolete, but are included for reference."
Also downloadable from Siglent https://siglentna.com/download/1877/
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Checked bit more.
In China domestic markets SDS2000X/Plus have also 70MHz 2 and 4 channels models.
Also here all 2ch and 4 channel 70/100/200MHz models come with 2x or 4x set of PP215.
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Odd, I'll follow back up with the distributor I got it from and see what comes of it, thanks guys! It's a fairly new unit, the cal paperwork is dated from Feb 5th 2021, so I'm assuming it's pretty new.
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I also received the PP510 probes with the SDS2104x+, but I Called my distributor and they are sending me the correct probes. Like Tautech said, we paid for the better probes, don't let it slide.
On another note, I was playing around with my new scope last night probing random UART data. I was trying to get the packet across the full screen, but for the life of me I could not find any way to do a Vernier change on the horizontal time base. I looked through the manual and didn't see anything either. Is there a way to make vernier adjustments on the time base? or can you only go in the 1, 2, 5 sequence?
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I also received the PP510 probes with the SDS2104x+, but I Called my distributor and they are sending me the correct probes. Like Tautech said, we paid for the better probes, don't let it slide.
On another note, I was playing around with my new scope last night probing random UART data. I was trying to get the packet across the full screen, but for the life of me I could not find any way to do a Vernier change on the horizontal time base. I looked through the manual and didn't see anything either. Is there a way to make vernier adjustments on the time base? or can you only go in the 1, 2, 5 sequence?
This is now quite weird thing.
THis can not accidentally happen by seller so that he accidentally send with wrong probes. If seller tell this ... who believe. If Siglent insert PP215 to every carton and close carton.
But then, very different case it is if this have accidentally happen in factory so that someone have accidentally insert wrong probes in carton. Always can happen mistakes if do something. But if seller tell he have accidentally sent with wrong probes, he lie. Least with my logic and knowledge..
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I also received the PP510 probes with the SDS2104x+, but I Called my distributor and they are sending me the correct probes. Like Tautech said, we paid for the better probes, don't let it slide.
Now there are 2 reports of PP510 probes supplied I too wonder if rf-loop is correct and the the wrong probes have been added to the box at the factory. :-//
On another note, I was playing around with my new scope last night probing random UART data. I was trying to get the packet across the full screen, but for the life of me I could not find any way to do a Vernier change on the horizontal time base. I looked through the manual and didn't see anything either. Is there a way to make vernier adjustments on the time base? or can you only go in the 1, 2, 5 sequence?
There is no vernier and we tackle this other ways.
Move the horizontal trigger position to the left to keep the complete packet on the display.
If you change the timebase the trigger position will off the display or closer to the 0s position but this can be addressed by using a fixed position setting where you can place it anywhere and it will remain there at any timebase setting. Utility>Reference Pos
Otherwise you can use a Zoom window and the H-Pos control where with a touch or mouse click change in which window the timebase and H-Pos controls are active and migrate around the data stream that way.
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I am in the same boat. New SDS2104x Plus with four PP510 probes. |O
Try to call italian distributor...
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What´s going on.... :o
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What´s going on.... :o
A lot of fuss about $5 probes. Many people probably toss the probes in the bin and buy (or already have) proper ones anyway. Probes that come with scopes are a courtesy item -nothing more nothing less-.
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I don't think its a lot of fuss when you spend $1400 dollars on a scope and get probes with half the bandwidth than you were supposed to get. I've been saving up for the majority of my internship to try and build a decent lab. Although I do plan on buying other probes at some point, I would like to receive everything I have been quoted
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I don't think its a lot of fuss when you spend $1400 dollars on a scope and get probes with half the bandwidth than you were supposed to get. I've been saving up for the majority of my internship to try and build a decent lab. Although I do plan on buying other probes at some point, I would like to receive everything I have been quoted
+1
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A lot of fuss about $5 probes. Many people probably toss the probes in the bin and buy (or already have) proper ones anyway. Probes that come with scopes are a courtesy item -nothing more nothing less-.
That is not a normal comment from you. They paid it, they are entitled to it even if costed $0.01.
In no place in the invoice it is said that it's a "GIFT"!
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here SDS2204X with probes SP2035 with all loose handles so the 10/1 button is impossible to opperate,
then I constantly need to pull the handle back, same problem for this type ?
where do you add the glue to fix this ?
the first thing that struck my mind when i unpacked it all :
"oh no what cheap shitty probes are they"
well well, time to order some propper stuff,
any recommendations ??
links ?
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A lot of fuss about $5 probes. Many people probably toss the probes in the bin and buy (or already have) proper ones anyway. Probes that come with scopes are a courtesy item -nothing more nothing less-.
That is not a normal comment from you. They paid it, they are entitled to it even if costed $0.01.
In no place in the invoice it is said that it's a "GIFT"!
But the invoice doesn't state a price either... Anyway, it is rather wasteful to go through a lot of trouble for an item which many people want to replace anyway. If this is about special and/or high quality probes I'd agree that you should get what is ordered / promised. But making so much fuss about low end probes is just not worth it. Think about the extra amount of e-waste, time & energy spend with sending out extra low quality probes. IMHO it would be much better to sell scopes without probes so the buyers can choose what kind of probes they want. Added to that is the fact that it is questionable whether you can actually get a good measurement for signals over 100MHz using High-Z probes anyway due to the large capacitive loading of the probe. All it boils down is demanding 'better' probes from a principle while getting very little practical / real added value.
Besides that it seems to me Siglent has changed its mind and is now shipping 100MHz probes with 100MHz scopes which seems logical. Likely the marketing material has not been updated yet.
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New owner of a SDS2104X+ here. I also received 4x PP510 probes, going to e-mail the seller now. What might be helpful at least for people in Europe:
https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2017/10/Probe_List_12302020.pdf (https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2017/10/Probe_List_12302020.pdf)
This is the list of standard probes supplied for each device. If I read the timestamp correctly, it's from the 30th of December 2020, so fairly recent.
I also had a weird malfunction with one of the probes: In 1:10 mode it seemed to only have capacitive coupling. The problem was reproducible and followed when I changed channels with the probe. 1:1 mode worked fine.
I tried it again a few hours later and the issue was gone, never reappeared since. Screenshot attached with another probe and this one connected to the CAL output.
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to self bias : it is the plastic sleeve of the probe, it is loose, that affect how the 10:1 switch is, and how much it can move,
you need to press the outher sleeve back, now the switch works,
happens to me all the time, need to figure out how to glue this
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I don't think its a lot of fuss when you spend $1400 dollars on a scope and get probes with half the bandwidth than you were supposed to get. I've been saving up for the majority of my internship to try and build a decent lab. Although I do plan on buying other probes at some point, I would like to receive everything I have been quoted
My thoughts exactly.
We do know from frequency sweep tests done by Performa01 that PP510 and PP215 do perform very similar to out past their respective -3dB rated BW to 300 MHz.
Those results are here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665)
But rather than the 200 MHz PP215 it is my view the 100 and 200 MHz models should be shipped with the $59 300 MHz 10x SP2030A Auto-Sense probe that with these DSO's and their 500uV/div sensitivity still permits selection of 5mV/div max sensitivity which is more than adequate for the vast majority of work.
OTOH I have written to high levels at Siglent to investigate why units are being supplied with PP510 probes instead of the datasheet specified PP215 probes.
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I don't think its a lot of fuss when you spend $1400 dollars on a scope and get probes with half the bandwidth than you were supposed to get. I've been saving up for the majority of my internship to try and build a decent lab. Although I do plan on buying other probes at some point, I would like to receive everything I have been quoted
My thoughts exactly.
We do know from frequency sweep tests done by Performa01 that PP510 and PP215 do perform very similar to out past their respective -3dB rated BW to 300 MHz.
Those results are here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665)
Unfortunately such tests say absolutely nothing about probing in real circuits :palm: Especially for frequencies over 100MHz. It has been explained before and any experienced engineer can tell you that. Or put differently: I never use a High-Z probe to probe signals over 100MHz because I know what I get on screen from a High-Z probe is a fantasy signal.
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I think, it´s a general (and interesting)thing and should be forwarded in an explicit thread, doesn´t have to do with the SDS2K+ only.
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All it boils down is demanding 'better' probes from a principle while getting very little practical / real added value.
Besides that it seems to me Siglent has changed its mind and is now shipping 100MHz probes with 100MHz scopes which seems logical. Likely the marketing material has not been updated yet.
I'm with you in that I don't use the stock probes (I have some nice ProbeMaster probes). But if a product is advertised with specific accessories, and they send something of lesser quality, that's false advertising, and it's generally illegal.
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If you order a new 200MPH Porsche 911 Twin Turbo you expect the tires to be better rated than 100MPH!! The factory supplies tires that are rated for 200MPH, if you want to change them you certainly can, but they are rated for 200MPH, and you paid for those 200MPH tires ;)
Best,
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well we "chip-tuned" our scopes to run double as fast, surely we cant expect the stock probes to follow our new "demand"
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If you order a new 200MPH Porsche 911 Twin Turbo you expect the tires to be better rated than 100MPH!! The factory supplies tires that are rated for 200MPH, if you want to change them you certainly can, but they are rated for 200MPH, and you paid for those 200MPH tires ;)
Best,
You chose the wrong example.
If you want to talk about precision on numbers, you must avoid talking about a brand that belongs to the Volkwagen group :-DD
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If you order a new 200MPH Porsche 911 Twin Turbo you expect the tires to be better rated than 100MPH!! The factory supplies tires that are rated for 200MPH, if you want to change them you certainly can, but they are rated for 200MPH, and you paid for those 200MPH tires ;)
Best,
You chose the wrong example.
If you want to talk about precision on numbers, you must avoid talking about a brand that belongs to the Volkwagen group :-DD
911 is pretty much purebred Porsche.. Other models not so much, but 911 is...
To be honest, I personally consider 911 only real Porsche... >:D
OT I think that if SDS2000X+ says in datasheet that it comes with 200Mhz model probes, it should come with those.. For correctness of data, if nothing else.
OTOH, like oz2cpu says, if you buy 200MHz scope and put a turbo on it, you need to buy better tires yourself... Or something like that :-DD
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If you order a new 200MPH Porsche 911 Twin Turbo you expect the tires to be better rated than 100MPH!! The factory supplies tires that are rated for 200MPH, if you want to change them you certainly can, but they are rated for 200MPH, and you paid for those 200MPH tires ;)
Best,
You chose the wrong example.
If you want to talk about precision on numbers, you must avoid talking about a brand that belongs to the Volkwagen group :-DD
Not the wrong example, Porsche just belongs to a larger group but doesn't convey they are performing or even held to the Volkswagen metrics which I do consider questionable, same goes for Audi. The Porsche 911 is recognized worldwide as the benchmark for all sports cars, why we have two (BTW the red 911 is a 993 model which is the last of the air cooled 911s, and worth more today than when purchased new in 1996!!) ;D
LeCroy belongs to Teledyne, but they still perform to their own established metrics!! I mean what does Teledyne know about oscilloscopes??
Best,
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If you order a new 200MPH Porsche 911 Twin Turbo you expect the tires to be better rated than 100MPH!! The factory supplies tires that are rated for 200MPH, if you want to change them you certainly can, but they are rated for 200MPH, and you paid for those 200MPH tires ;)
Best,
You chose the wrong example.
If you want to talk about precision on numbers, you must avoid talking about a brand that belongs to the Volkwagen group :-DD
911 is pretty much purebred Porsche.. Other models not so much, but 911 is...
To be honest, I personally consider 911 only real Porsche... >:D
OT I think that if SDS2000X+ says in datasheet that it comes with 200Mhz model probes, it should come with those.. For correctness of data, if nothing else.
OTOH, like oz2cpu says, if you buy 200MHz scope and put a turbo on it, you need to buy better tires yourself... Or something like that :-DD
Agree, the 911 is Porsche!! The 911 just won the 12 hours of Sebring in the GTLM and GTD classes, this is Porsche 100th total class wins at Sebring since 1st racing in ~1954!!
Cars are like scopes, the faster the better, but you need proper rated tires and probes to reach the full potential of either ;D
Best,
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I don't suppose anyone knows a way to list the installed options on this scope via SCPI, do they? The 'normal' *OPT? doesn't seem to deliver the goods, and there's nothing in the programming manual suggesting a route.
DAVE
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I don't suppose anyone knows a way to list the installed options on this scope via SCPI, do they? The 'normal' *OPT? doesn't seem to deliver the goods, and there's nothing in the programming manual suggesting a route.
DAVE
Why ? :-//
If you go to the Options page in the Utility menu and hit Print you can get that screenshot sent to a USB stick if you need some record of what's installed.
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I don't suppose anyone knows a way to list the installed options on this scope via SCPI, do they? The 'normal' *OPT? doesn't seem to deliver the goods, and there's nothing in the programming manual suggesting a route.
DAVE
Why ? :-//
Simple: say you want to write a piece of software which depends on a certain option; you will want to detect whether that option is installed and if that is not the case present a clear warning to the user instead of failing in an undefined way. Probably you can achieve the same using checks to access optional functionality but in general that is not the easiest way.
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Simple: say you want to write a piece of software which depends on a certain option; you will want to detect whether that option is installed and if that is not the case present a clear warning to the user instead of failing in an undefined way. Probably you can achieve the same using checks to access optional functionality but in general that is not the easiest way.
This. Porting all the functionality of scopehal is going to be a bit tricky without such a capability....
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What probes are included from the factory with this machine?
- SDS2104X+: 4x PP215 - Correct?
- SDS2204X+: 4x PP430 ?
- SDS2354X+: 4x PP430 ?
My SDS2104X+ came with PP510, the 100MHz Siglent probes.
Same here. Ordered an SDS2104X+ from tequipment.net, which arrived yesterday, and it came with 4x PP510 100MHz probes. Not sure what brand they are.
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What probes are included from the factory with this machine?
- SDS2104X+: 4x PP215 - Correct?
- SDS2204X+: 4x PP430 ?
- SDS2354X+: 4x PP430 ?
My SDS2104X+ came with PP510, the 100MHz Siglent probes.
Same here. Ordered an SDS2104X+ from tequipment.net, which arrived yesterday, and it came with 4x PP510 100MHz probes.
Ask them to replace them with PP215's as listed in the datasheet.
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What probes are included from the factory with this machine?
- SDS2104X+: 4x PP215 - Correct?
- SDS2204X+: 4x PP430 ?
- SDS2354X+: 4x PP430 ?
My SDS2104X+ came with PP510, the 100MHz Siglent probes.
Same here. Ordered an SDS2104X+ from tequipment.net, which arrived yesterday, and it came with 4x PP510 100MHz probes.
Ask them to replace them with PP215's as listed in the datasheet.
Received my unit today from tequipment... calibration date is February 2021, received 4 x PP510 probes. It is clear by now that someone at the factory decided to cut some cost
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Received my unit today from tequipment... calibration date is February 2021, received 4 x PP510 probes. It is clear by now that someone at the factory decided to cut some cost
Actually not but I won't go into this until I have official confirmation.
Please see you claim for the correct PP215 probe as replacements.
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My SDS2104X+ came with PP510, the 100MHz Siglent probes.
Same here. Ordered an SDS2104X+ from tequipment.net, which arrived yesterday, and it came with 4x PP510 100MHz probes.
Ask them to replace them with PP215's as listed in the datasheet.
I can't seem to find any current documentation that lists the probes that come with the SDS2104X+. Maybe with the current limited time offer (free software - I2S, FlexRay, Mil-1553B, CANFD, Power Analysis and Built-in 50MHz AWG) that runs through the end of the month they're shipping it with cheaper probes.
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My SDS2104X+ came with PP510, the 100MHz Siglent probes.
Same here. Ordered an SDS2104X+ from tequipment.net, which arrived yesterday, and it came with 4x PP510 100MHz probes.
Ask them to replace them with PP215's as listed in the datasheet.
I can't seem to find any current documentation that lists the probes that come with the SDS2104X+. Maybe with the current limited time offer (free software - I2S, FlexRay, Mil-1553B, CANFD, Power Analysis and Built-in 50MHz AWG) that runs through the end of the month they're shipping it with cheaper probes.
P3 of the datasheet.
See here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3525558/#msg3525558 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3525558/#msg3525558)
If you received PP510 probes they are wrong and claim for the correct 200 MHz PP215 probes.
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Regardless of wrong or right cheapest probes delivered, it´s a strange policy from siglent, giving the cheapest probes they can get to this not-so-cheap-anymore-scope.
I would expect that for their very low price models, not for this one.
When rigol could offer 350Mhz probes even with their 70Mhz model of the 5000 series, which costs nearly 500 bucks less...
When Lecroy doesn´t have a problem to pack their 350Mhz scope with 4 500Mhz probes, where each of them will costs extremely when buying separately..
...It tells me, that probes itselfs will cost not much for rigol or lecroy.
But for siglent ?
What will happen, when I´m upgrading the bandwith official ?
Do I get new probes with the license key too ?
I think not..
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Regardless of wrong or right cheapest probes delivered, it´s a strange policy from siglent,
It's not policy but nonadherence to the official datasheet.
Let me say this again....anyone that receives PP510 probes with a new SDS2104X Plus instead of the specified PP215 probes contact your supplier to have them replaced.
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If you order a new 200MPH Porsche 911 Twin Turbo you expect the tires to be better rated than 100MPH!! The factory supplies tires that are rated for 200MPH, if you want to change them you certainly can, but they are rated for 200MPH, and you paid for those 200MPH tires ;)
Best,
You chose the wrong example.
If you want to talk about precision on numbers, you must avoid talking about a brand that belongs to the Volkwagen group :-DD
Not the wrong example, Porsche just belongs to a larger group but doesn't convey they are performing or even held to the Volkswagen metrics which I do consider questionable, same goes for Audi. The Porsche 911 is recognized worldwide as the benchmark for all sports cars, why we have two (BTW the red 911 is a 993 model which is the last of the air cooled 911s, and worth more today than when purchased new in 1996!!) ;D
LeCroy belongs to Teledyne, but they still perform to their own established metrics!! I mean what does Teledyne know about oscilloscopes??
Best,
Cayenne diesel?
But you're right, the Beetle is a fast car even if it has the engine in the wrong place >:D
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Regardless of wrong or right cheapest probes delivered, it´s a strange policy from siglent, giving the cheapest probes they can get to this not-so-cheap-anymore-scope.
I would expect that for their very low price models, not for this one.
When rigol could offer 350Mhz probes even with their 70Mhz model of the 5000 series, which costs nearly 500 bucks less...
When Lecroy doesn´t have a problem to pack their 350Mhz scope with 4 500Mhz probes, where each of them will costs extremely when buying separately..
...It tells me, that probes itselfs will cost not much for rigol or lecroy.
But for siglent ?
What will happen, when I´m upgrading the bandwith official ?
Do I get new probes with the license key too ?
I think not..
Well...
Here is @Performa01 made test result.. if bit stretch things... what is probe freq what Siglent offer, even with 70MHz model (examaple with SDS2074XPlus). Do not read probe text.. it do not matter. Reality matters.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/?action=dlattach;attach=397963;image)
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Here is @Performa01 made test result.. if bit stretch things... what is probe freq what Siglent offer, even with 70MHz model (examaple with SDS2074XPlus). Do not read probe text.. it do not matter. Reality matters.
What reality? I looked up the thread; Performa01's measurements of the 100MHz and 200MHz Siglent probes show identical results even though they have different specifications. Something must be wrong. I already noted in that thread that probes should be measured using a source impedance of 25 Ohm. Performa01 never acknowledged that he did that. Another problem is that he used a 200MHz oscilloscope. The total risetime of the system is roughly sqrt (rise_time_probe^2 + rise_time_scope ^2) (See Keysight appnote 5988-8008EN). In the end the difference between a 100MHz and 200MHz probe is much smaller than you expect when you use a 200MHz oscilloscope because the risetime (bandwidth) of the oscilloscope influences the bandwidth as well. The difference between using a 100MHz probe versus a 200MHz probe results in a 90 MHz and a 140MHz bandwidth (50MHz difference instead of the expected 100MHz!). A much better measurement approach would be to use a dedicated probe testing rig with a high impedance, high bandwidth buffer amplifier which drives a 50 Ohm >1GHz bandwidth oscilloscope input. This way you reduce the effects of the oscilloscope.
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Regardless of wrong or right cheapest probes delivered, it´s a strange policy from siglent,
It's not policy but nonadherence to the official datasheet.
Let me say this again....anyone that receives PP510 probes with a new SDS2104X Plus instead of the specified PP215 probes contact your supplier to have them replaced.
^^^ What tautech said. ^^^
tequipment.net indicated they were recently notified by the mfr. that incorrect probes were included with the Plus model of this scope and that Siglent would be replacing these directly (with PP215's). tequipment is sending Siglent a list of affected customers today and also gave me the phone number for Siglent (877 515-5551) in case I wanted to contact them myself.
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Just for comparsion a response plot on a 0 to 500 Mhz scale:
All four PP215 probes delivered with SDS2204X+ (REFA..REFD).
Measured on 25 \$\Omega\$source impedance with Tip/BNC adapter, attenuation 10x.
For reference (F1) a 50cm H155 coax cable.
Not that bad i think, -3dB (-2dB relative to coax) just a bit below 500Mhz. The uniformity is quite impressive.
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Here is @Performa01 made test result.. if bit stretch things... what is probe freq what Siglent offer, even with 70MHz model (examaple with SDS2074XPlus). Do not read probe text.. it do not matter. Reality matters.
What reality? I looked up the thread; Performa01's measurements of the 100MHz and 200MHz Siglent probes show identical results even though they have different specifications.
Not identical. Close, but not identical. Look especially at the lower end of the frequency range, and you'll see the two deviating from each other by about 1 dB. Maybe that's close enough to be regarded as "identical"...
Honestly, why should any of this be a surprise? You're likely to get better returns from mass manufacturing if you make both probes using the same materials and techniques, and then separate them on the basis of the result of quality checks, than by manufacturing them using different materials and/or techniques.
Now, it may be that a different approach to testing will show greater differences than what were found, but that the two perform very similarly shouldn't be much of a surprise given the cost advantages of making both of them on the same assembly line and with the same parts.
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Regardless of wrong or right cheapest probes delivered, it´s a strange policy from siglent,
It's not policy but nonadherence to the official datasheet.
Let me say this again....anyone that receives PP510 probes with a new SDS2104X Plus instead of the specified PP215 probes contact your supplier to have them replaced.
^^^ What tautech said. ^^^
tequipment.net indicated they were recently notified by the mfr. that incorrect probes were included with the Plus model of this scope and that Siglent would be replacing these directly (with PP215's). tequipment is sending Siglent a list of affected customers today and also gave me the phone number for Siglent (877 515-5551) in case I wanted to contact them myself.
And EU supply of SDS2104X Plus is affected too.
https://www.siglenteu.com/contact-us/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/contact-us/)
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Here is @Performa01 made test result.. if bit stretch things... what is probe freq what Siglent offer, even with 70MHz model (examaple with SDS2074XPlus). Do not read probe text.. it do not matter. Reality matters.
What reality? I looked up the thread; Performa01's measurements of the 100MHz and 200MHz Siglent probes show identical results even though they have different specifications.
Not identical. Close, but not identical. Look especially at the lower end of the frequency range, and you'll see the two deviating from each other by about 1 dB. Maybe that's close enough to be regarded as "identical"...
That 1dB difference can be a measurement error as well. It definitely needs closer inspection.
Honestly, why should any of this be a surprise? You're likely to get better returns from mass manufacturing if you make both probes using the same materials and techniques, and then separate them on the basis of the result of quality checks, than by manufacturing them using different materials and/or techniques.
For such a low cost item post-production testing costs more than the production itself costs. And on top of that the manufacturer doesn't know whether they produce enough of either quality to fullfil demand. IMHO stories about mass-produced products being binned based on specs are grossly exaggerated (IOW: urban myth).
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New owner of a SDS2104X+ here. I also received 4x PP510 probes, going to e-mail the seller now. [...]
They initially replied that Siglent may have changed the shipping contents without updating their datasheets and that they will contact them for further information. But: I just received the response that my 4x PP510 will be exchanged for PP215s.
I'm still curious about the actual difference they will make, I sadly don't have a good enough source available to test with.
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Me, I´ve bought 4pcs used but in good conditions Lecroy 350Mhz probes with autosensing, all 4 for under 100 bucks and that was it.
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Here is @Performa01 made test result.. if bit stretch things... what is probe freq what Siglent offer, even with 70MHz model (examaple with SDS2074XPlus). Do not read probe text.. it do not matter. Reality matters.
What reality? I looked up the thread; Performa01's measurements of the 100MHz and 200MHz Siglent probes show identical results even though they have different specifications. Something must be wrong. I already noted in that thread that probes should be measured using a source impedance of 25 Ohm. Performa01 never acknowledged that he did that. Another problem is that he used a 200MHz oscilloscope. The total risetime of the system is roughly sqrt (rise_time_probe^2 + rise_time_scope ^2) (See Keysight appnote 5988-8008EN). In the end the difference between a 100MHz and 200MHz probe is much smaller than you expect when you use a 200MHz oscilloscope because the risetime (bandwidth) of the oscilloscope influences the bandwidth as well. The difference between using a 100MHz probe versus a 200MHz probe results in a 90 MHz and a 140MHz bandwidth (50MHz difference instead of the expected 100MHz!). A much better measurement approach would be to use a dedicated probe testing rig with a high impedance, high bandwidth buffer amplifier which drives a 50 Ohm >1GHz bandwidth oscilloscope input. This way you reduce the effects of the oscilloscope.
Of course BUT... you totally disconnect my comment from @Martin72 comment.
Due to this disconnect you loose whole context. As you can see he talk what Rigol offer.... and I answer something like... look what freq response Siglent offer.
In practice Siglent offer over 300MHz probe with this scope, even it is not printed on probe. But in practice PP215 is far over 200MHz probe... just if want, it do not violate anything if print 350MHz on this probe surface instead of 200 MHz, (based to these tested individual probes).
My context, what you dismiss, was not at all compare PP215 and PP510 f resp.. But somehow related to what other brand, Rigol, offer. Rigol offer probe where is printed 350MHz. I have not seen real compare between it and Siglent PP510 or PP215. Text printed on probe do not so much matter. Reality matters..
With these cheap probes can test when scope arrive that it works and do some first training with it and perhaps suitable random hobby use.. For serious type of use, professional everyday work... forget these probes and just buy good probes and many different probes. Many times it is so that investment to good set of good high grade probes cost well over oscilloscope price.
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Regardless of wrong or right cheapest probes delivered, it´s a strange policy from siglent, giving the cheapest probes they can get to this not-so-cheap-anymore-scope.
I would expect that for their very low price models, not for this one.
When rigol could offer 350Mhz probes even with their 70Mhz model of the 5000 series, which costs nearly 500 bucks less...
When Lecroy doesn´t have a problem to pack their 350Mhz scope with 4 500Mhz probes, where each of them will costs extremely when buying separately..
...It tells me, that probes itselfs will cost not much for rigol or lecroy.
But for siglent ?
What will happen, when I´m upgrading the bandwith official ?
Do I get new probes with the license key too ?
I think not..
Well...
Here is @Performa01 made test result.. if bit stretch things... what is probe freq what Siglent offer, even with 70MHz model (examaple with SDS2074XPlus). Do not read probe text.. it do not matter. Reality matters.
This and other some tests show that perhaps we can print on PP215 "350 MHz" and after this printing Siglent offer nearly same as Rigol. Oh but there is still not 1x 10x detect. One solution is remove whole 1x 10x select. Glue it permanently to 10x position and shring tube over it. Now it is 10x 350MHz probe... well if you like you can also print 400MHz over it... or what ever between 1 to under 500MHz.
Problem is now just what is printed on probe.
Many users still do not have skills to right use probe even over 50MHz circuits or do not know how probing affect DUT.
It need enough knowledge and experience. Lot of peoples do not have. Probing is thing what really need more knowledge than what is tip and what is GND. Perhaps whole probing is so wide and important question that oscilloscope school is just playing... but when we go to probing school... it is hardcore serious thing. Really.
Then also the probes are a consumable item and yet need to be purchased and renewed when stepped on or the cord is damaged in the rush of work. Just like shoes and socks are worn when they are worn, and different for different uses. 1 model of universal probe in use is about the same as trying to make a house with a one hammer.
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Here compared PP215 and PP510 from 1MHz to 500MHz
Source impedance 25ohm as standard for passive probes response testing.
Just for reference other image between 80cm RG316 and PP215
Naturally there is generator flatness included and RG316 + connectors + impedance mismatch error included. This give only rough direction where we are with these probes.
Everyone who use probes, of course understand all errors what happen when use probes. When you connect probe to near DC or LF it is extremely different situation when you connect probe to HF circuit, and here I mean HF including also LF signals if there is HF including edges.
When you connect probe to DUT it change DUT ! If you connect probe to ideal source what do not exist in this world but in students story books, even then you have all more or less wrong due to probe itself. If user do not understand these things and just blind believe scope display as fact book, well even some professionals are many times fooled.
Probing is MUCH more difficult that learning to use oscilloscope itself and all features. When you are probing HF mixed kind of complex signals it can say that it is nearly like state of art to get some very trusted results. It need something more than good oscilloscope and good probe... some do miracles with simple scopes and tools. Same effect can see in photographs. Many have purchased "High End" or "State Of Art" expensive camera... but they can not take good photographs. But some who have true skills have take extremely good photographs using nearly like "camera obscura". All is in skills and knowledge and experience. One can measure using one rasor blade and one candle very very small anomalies in telescope mirror and other one need some 5 decades price instrument and result may still be nonsense crap.
Probing school is nice idea... all can use oscilloscope. But who can use probes... well all can connect tip and GND and scope display how your led is blinking. Yes. But when we go to more challenging things, complex signals and want really know what is truth and not only what scope display.. scope display just all crap but it do not tell anything how much it differ from truth and because you do not know truth you may accidentally believe what scope display... the less you know the simpler all things are.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1203386;image)
Up to 500MHz roughly inside 3dB
If do corrections even better (Gen flatness, measurement instrument flatness)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1203390;image)
Up to 500MHz roughly inside 3dB
If do corrections even better (Gen flatness,measurement instrument flatness)
RG316 is for reference for estimate corrections because we know roughly this cable attenuation vs freq.
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What probes are included from the factory with this machine?
- SDS2104X+: 4x PP215 - Correct?
- SDS2204X+: 4x PP430 ?
- SDS2354X+: 4x PP430 ?
From the datasheet P3:
Probe (standard)
SDS2354X Plus
SP2035A, 350 MHz, 1 probe supplied for each channel
SDS2204X Plus, SDS2104X Plus
PP215, 200 MHz, 1 probe supplied for each channel
----<snip>----
Oddly enough I just bought a SDS2204X Plus and it came with 4x SP2035, 350 MHz probes in the box. :-//
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But you're right, the Beetle is a fast car even if it has the engine in the wrong place >:D
The Porsche 911 is like a fast Volkswagen Beetle like a Ferrari is a fast Fiat :-DD
BTW the 911 engine has been in the right place behind the driver since it's developement in 1963 :-+
Best,
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Oddly enough I just bought a SDS2204X Plus and it came with 4x SP2035, 350 MHz probes in the box. :-//
Nice, those are ~$160 probes :-+
Best,
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Yay!!! The EEVBlog and the Forum are back online. Exactly this week when I’m supposed to pick up my new, shiny and colourful SDS2104X Plus scope.
Welcome back, we missed ya! :box:
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Heads up guys.
The promotion including free options and/or price reductions has ended. :(
Hopefully some dealers will have some stock remaining or stock on order still offering the promotion.
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Batronix has extended the offer to the 30th of April:
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2104X-plus.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2104X-plus.html)
Also note that you'll have to wait a little to get it: in 21-40 days in stock.
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Just a few clarifications for the never ending probe topic and especially my tests for the SDS1000X-E.
1. Source impedance
Of course the tests have been performed with 25 ohms source impedance, as explained in reply #59, where I quoted from the original thread where the idea for this test was born (replies #520, 521):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434847/#msg1434847 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434847/#msg1434847)
As everyone can see, reply #521 even contains circuit diagrams representing the test setup.
One could also expect that using the wrong source impedance would usually mean just 50 ohms – and using a source impedance higher than 25 ohms would actually lead to worse performance figures.
2. Differences in frequency response between PP510 and PP215 below 100 MHz
This doesn’t exceed 0.66 dB (at 40 MHz) - not very significant for a cheap oscilloscope probe indeed. It might be because of slight differences in the LF-compensation (because of the fiddly trimmer capacitors).
3. Test with a 200 MHz DSO
Of course. The test was about appropriate probes for the SDS1200X-E.
I’ve also tried to explain that a probe has to be matched with the actual input impedance of the DSO in question, which in turn is a lot more complex than just 1 megohm in parallel with a few picofarads. My tests showed that the 300 MHz rated probes for the e.g. previous SDS2000X do not perform well on the SDS1000X-E machines.
For the ones who still like such demonstrations, I’ve posted the frequency response of the PP510 on a 1 GHz SDS5104X, see reply #191 in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg3290546/#msg3290546 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg3290546/#msg3290546)
4. No significant difference between 100 and 200 MHz rated probes?
I’ve tried to explain it already in the above posting:
… if you build a passive probe properly, with the correct HF compensation for the scope input it's intended to be used with (or adjustable HF compensation like e.g. the TesTec TT-MF312), then you can expect a probe bandwidth of several hundred MHz and you would have to deliberately add internal filtering to limit the bandwidth to e.g. 100 MHz.
In other words: it would take either the intention of a deliberate bandwidth limit or a serious amount of incompetence to design a probe that does not perform up to at least 300 MHz. I also talked about former tests, where a humble 100 MHz Tektronix probe outperformed the 500 MHz Keysight probe on a SDS2304X.
People should understand that probe specifications are only valid in conjunction with the scope they are intended to be used with.
Furthermore, people should understand that the probe together with the scope input is a complex and severely mismatched system from the outset and the frequency response can be anything (and certainly needs not resemble a lowpass behavior).
Finally, it should be clear that specifications just tell you what the manufacturer is willing to guarantee; there is absolutely no implied information what the performance outside the specifications will be.
5. What does all that mean for the SDS2000X plus?
I once measured the frequency response of my old PP215 probes on the SDS2354X plus (with the 500 MHz option). The -3 dB system bandwidth was about 420 MHz. From past experiences, I expect the PP510 to give similar results.
Probing techniques are important and it is indeed rather doubtful that passive “high Z” probes will cut it at high frequencies – at least in cases where the source impedance is considerably higher than 25 ohms. From this point of view it’s hard to understand where all the worries about the probes come from.
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specifications just tell you what the manufacturer is willing to guarantee;
:-+
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"I want to return my scope, it doesn´t have the bandwith like the scope my friend got, only 150Mhz instead of 180Mhz and he got the same model !
Sir, you bought a 100Mhz Version..."
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"I want to return my scope, it doesn´t have the bandwith like the scope my friend got, only 150Mhz instead of 180Mhz and he got the same model !
Sir, you bought a 100Mhz Version..."
:-DD
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SDS2204 scope
Foreword:
you hit print button with USB stick, after 25 measurements wife calls you home for dinner,
next day you dont have the scope, some one else need it, and now you need to write the report,
with the pictures from the usb stick..
or even worse: you are too busy doing something else for a few weeks,
and now you studently need the info from the measurements, forgot to write the report when you made the measurements.
(you are lying if you never experienced any of this)
Question:
how to add user text to the screen ? like real easy ?
so each picture will be easy to identify later ?
other options:
make a paper with all the important technical stuff and simply add the picture number to that sheet,
since the scope do write the filename briefly on the screen.
or
change the name of the channel
or
be sure to set the system time correctly, or at least same as your phone, and take a picture of the relevant hardware setup
and the scope picture at the same time you hit print on scope
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Another option is to have PC with browser connected to it and save screenshots from there directly on a PC
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I didn’t think that I would really miss the ability to place any text labels and draw on the screen, like in RTB2000. It would be great if the Siglent can add text labels anywhere on the screen.
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Adding trace labels is shit easy:
Plug in a mouse and use the virtual QWERTY keyboard....takes just seconds.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1029290)
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Adding trace labels is shit easy:
Plug in a mouse and use the virtual QWERTY keyboard....takes just seconds.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1029290)
It is not what maxspb69 asked:
"It would be great if the Siglent can add text labels anywhere on the screen." Trace labels are not text labels / annotations and cannot be placed anywhere you like.
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I use windows paint for this. 8)
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What probes are included from the factory with this machine?
- SDS2104X+: 4x PP215 - Correct?
- SDS2204X+: 4x PP430 ?
- SDS2354X+: 4x PP430 ?
My SDS2104X+ came with PP510, the 100MHz Siglent probes.
Same here. Ordered an SDS2104X+ from tequipment.net, which arrived yesterday, and it came with 4x PP510 100MHz probes.
Ask them to replace them with PP215's as listed in the datasheet.
Received my unit today from tequipment... calibration date is February 2021, received 4 x PP510 probes. It is clear by now that someone at the factory decided to cut some cost
Siglent North America exchanged the 4xPP510 probes that was included in the box for 4xPP215s.
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I picked up my SDS2104X Plus today. The date on the Certificate of Calibration is 7 March 2021 (a Sunday!). I had ordered it on 26 March.
It came with four PP215 200 MHz probes. Also, the six optional features have been pre-installed from the factory. The temporary options are: MSO, SENT and Manch, and of course the Bandwidth upgrade. What’s are SENT and Manch options good for?
I connected the scope to my network via LAN and I ❤️ how I could not only monitor the scope but also control it via the web browser on my MacBook Pro, iPad Pro, iPhone, or even via my 21” Wacom tablet - all simultaneously! I can even mirror the screen of my devices onto my 65” TV or 133” FP screen. It’s super amazing! This is a much better feature than an HDMI output - like Rigol’s - which provides only one-way communication to one TV.
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What’s are SENT and Manch options good for?
They're decodes that were added in the last firmware update after the promotion was launched.
They each have 30 trial usages before they stop working.
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So digital stuff?
They're decodes that were added in the last firmware update after the promotion was launched.
They each have 30 trial usages before they stop working.
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OK, I’ve found relevant coding info:
- SENT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SENT_(protocol)
- Manch: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_code
Thanks!
They're decodes that were added in the last firmware update after the promotion was launched.
They each have 30 trial usages before they stop working.
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So digital stuff?
They're decodes that were added in the last firmware update after the promotion was launched.
They each have 30 trial usages before they stop working.
Yes, digital protocols. You may never need of want them, that's why they are optional. ;)
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Most likely not. As a simple hobbyist I’m not much into digital stuff... although it’d be fun to learn some more.
Yes, digital protocols. You may never need of want them, that's why they are optional. ;)
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Quote from: highpower on March 27, 2021, 03:43:04 am (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=218238.msg3531816#msg3531816)Oddly enough I just bought a SDS2204X Plus and it came with 4x SP2035, 350 MHz probes in the box. :-//
Nice, those are ~$160 probes :-+
Best,
My original plan was to use a set of Probemaster 200 MHz (auto sense) probes that I have, that I bought for a Tektronix TDS360 and use the PP215 probes for the Tek scope instead. But since the BW can be upgraded on the SDS2204x+ it makes more sense now to use the SP2035 probes they sent with it. I would like to have used the auto sense probes for the Siglent though. Shame they didn't include SP2035A probes instead. >:D
I'm KIDDING by the way! ;D I'm certainly not going to look a gift horse in the mouth. In fact I've already ordered the logic probes and demo/training board to give something in return for their (accidental - I'm sure) generosity on the probes.
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What is the “Tek Mode” (Tektronix? ::)) in the Utility menu?
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What is the “Tek Mode” (Tektronix? ::)) in the Utility menu?
Buried back on P46 of this thread:
In Tek Mode, the SCPI commands that the instrument understands are adapted to match those of Tektronix.
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I noticed something else:
When activating Tek mode the trace labels on the left edge of the screen are reset vertically to ‘0’ (middle of screen) and the vertical position is indicated in terms of division shift amount relative to the preset trace offset set in the channel settings menu, rather than in absolute voltage shift values.
Is this how Tektronix scopes work? (I am not familiar with them.)
It’s weird that there’s no indication about “Tek Mode” in the User Manual. Maybe it’s a newer feature introduced in one of the latest firmware updates. Perhaps there are other differences, too. Is there a way to obtain official information on this feature from Siglent?
Buried back on P46 of this thread:
In Tek Mode, the SCPI commands that the instrument understands are adapted to match those of Tektronix.
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It did use my 4 units intensively in the last 5 weeks.
I used them exclusively from a remote location due to the radioactive environment in which the scopes were.
I do monitor analog signal but I struggle a lot seing the grid on my remote browser.
It'sok when looking locally, but the grid is rather weak on the web browser.
any hint ?
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Maybe it’s a newer feature introduced in one of the latest firmware updates.
No, it´s there since in the beginning:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2926166/#msg2926166 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2926166/#msg2926166)
And yes, there is not a single reference to it in the manual - Every point from the "utilities" menu will be described in chapter 30, even the debug thing, but not the tek mode.
Strange... ;)
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It did use my 4 units intensively in the last 5 weeks.
I used them exclusively from a remote location due to the radioactive environment in which the scopes were.
I do monitor analog signal but I struggle a lot seing the grid on my remote browser.
It'sok when looking locally, but the grid is rather weak on the web browser.
any hint ?
Display>Grid brightness....you may need to scroll down the menu to see it.
Normal default setting is OK in a not too bright lab but too dim for screenshots and webrowser work. Increase it to ~60% and it will bee much better.
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Yes, the grids are fainter in a browser.
Try: Display -> Menu -> Graticule -> 100%.
The default is 20%. I keep mine normally at 30% and increase it to 70% when monitoring in a browser.
It did use my 4 units intensively in the last 5 weeks.
I used them exclusively from a remote location due to the radioactive environment in which the scopes were.
I do monitor analog signal but I struggle a lot seing the grid on my remote browser.
It'sok when looking locally, but the grid is rather weak on the web browser.
any hint ?
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Weird, eh?
This is what I discovered (see also above):
“When activating Tek mode the trace labels on the left edge of the screen are reset vertically to ‘0’ (middle of screen) and the vertical position is indicated in terms of division shift amount relative to the preset trace offset set in the channel settings menu, rather than in absolute voltage shift values.”
Plus, the SCPI commands thing pointed out by tautech. I wonder if there’s anything else...
No, it´s there since in the beginning:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2926166/#msg2926166 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2926166/#msg2926166)
And yes, there is not a single reference to it in the manual - Every point from the "utilities" menu will be described in chapter 30, even the debug thing, but not the tek mode.
Strange... ;)
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In Tek Mode there is an additional offset adjustment in Channel Menu, just like on TDSxxxx Models.
[attach=1]
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What is the difference between this “Offset” adjustment and the vertical “Position” adjustment?
In Tek Mode there is an additional offset adjustment in Channel Menu, just like on TDSxxxx Models.
(Attachment Link)
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Folks,
I just contributed changes to scopehal to support SDS2000X+. Although scopehal works perfectly well as a scope front end the speed at which you can pull data off the 2000X+ means it's much better suited as a post-processing tool for all sorts of applications....here's it being used for SWD decode on some pretty awfully probed SWDIO/SWCLK signals, for example;
(https://i.ibb.co/g4VCBMh/swd.png)
Scopehal, and this driver, should be considered alpha quality and there's work needed, but if anyone fancies helping out with some testing and even coding feel free to head over to https://github.com/azonenberg/scopehal-apps (https://github.com/azonenberg/scopehal-apps) and take a look. There is a supporting discord channel too.
DAVE
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My scope’s serial number is like SDS2PDDC5R****. I’m not sure if it’s production post the range that you indicated. The certificate of calibration is dated 7 March 2021.
The fan makes an audible hissing noise which is amplified by the scope housing and can be heard even from a couple of metres away in a quiet room. But I can also hear a buzzing noise from the machine - perhaps lower than 100 Hz, I am not sure - which I am not certain if it’s generated by the fan or by the electronics inside (e.g. the SMPS, 60 Hz mains frequency). Is this buzzing sound normal?
Through the vents at the back I can see the fan is an ADDA, Model AD0912DS-A70GL. According to the specs it should generate 22 dB/A noise (http://www.addausa.com/specifications/92-120.pdf (http://www.addausa.com/specifications/92-120.pdf))
New stock SDS2104X Plus SN# range SDS2PDDD4R1*** are somewhat quieter than earlier units and it seems a slower fan has now been fitted.
Earlier Plus units were louder than SDS5000X once their smart fan had kicked back after boot but now they're about equal for fan noise.
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On another note, I noticed a minor, but nice touch at this scope. Maybe someone else pointed this out before but, if so, I’d like to reiterate it.
When the scope is off, but not unplugged from the mains, the power button would still glow green faintly. It could come in very handy in a dimly lit environment. As Dave Jones would famously say: “I like it!”
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When the scope is off, but not unplugged from the mains, the power button would still glow green faintly. It could come in very handy in a dimly lit environment. As Dave Jones would famously say: “I like it!”
In this video it appears to pulse rather than glow steadily?
https://youtu.be/TcrSmweH5_w?t=200 (https://youtu.be/TcrSmweH5_w?t=200)
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When the scope is off, but not unplugged from the mains, the power button would still glow green faintly. It could come in very handy in a dimly lit environment. As Dave Jones would famously say: “I like it!”
In this video it appears to pulse rather than glow steadily?
https://youtu.be/TcrSmweH5_w?t=200 (https://youtu.be/TcrSmweH5_w?t=200)
Looking with eyes it do not blink. Steady and very dim. I have SDS2kXPlus just front of me and in normal room light can not even detect there is light.
I believe this blinking effect in this old video is just stroboscopic effect with video camera. I do not know if older version have more bright led than today versions.
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When the scope is off, but not unplugged from the mains, the power button would still glow green faintly. It could come in very handy in a dimly lit environment. As Dave Jones would famously say: “I like it!”
In this video it appears to pulse rather than glow steadily?
https://youtu.be/TcrSmweH5_w?t=200 (https://youtu.be/TcrSmweH5_w?t=200)
Looking with eyes it do not blink. Steady and very dim. I have SDS2kXPlus just front of me and in normal room light can not even detect there is light.
I believe this blinking effect in this old video is just stroboscopic effect with video camera. I do not know if older version have more bright led than today versions.
100%
No Siglent model has ever had a power button pulse like that.
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It’s not flickering (“pulsing”) on mine. The artifact that you’re seeing in the video may be due to the camera frame rate that the video blogger used.
In this video it appears to pulse rather than glow steadily?
https://youtu.be/TcrSmweH5_w?t=200 (https://youtu.be/TcrSmweH5_w?t=200)
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When the scope is off, but not unplugged from the mains, the power button would still glow green faintly. It could come in very handy in a dimly lit environment. As Dave Jones would famously say: “I like it!”
In this video it appears to pulse rather than glow steadily?
https://youtu.be/TcrSmweH5_w?t=200 (https://youtu.be/TcrSmweH5_w?t=200)
Looking with eyes it do not blink. Steady and very dim. I have SDS2kXPlus just front of me and in normal room light can not even detect there is light.
I believe this blinking effect in this old video is just stroboscopic effect with video camera. I do not know if older version have more bright led than today versions.
100%
No Siglent model has ever had a power button pulse like that.
That's only true if you're ignoring the SDS1202X-E model (likely most, if not all of the SDS1xxx models too). Mine slowly winks at 420mHz (2.375 seconds cycle time). ;)
The SDS2104X Plus and the SSA3021X Plus otoh, both simply show a steady dim glow when connected to mains power and shut down.
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Looking with eyes it do not blink. Steady and very dim. I have SDS2kXPlus just front of me and in normal room light can not even detect there is light.
I believe this blinking effect in this old video is just stroboscopic effect with video camera. I do not know if older version have more bright led than today versions.
Thank you for that. I just bought a SDS2204Xplus and didn't notice any light at all in a normally lit room. I thought they may have changed something recently. I haven't looked at it myself in the dark as of yet. :)
Thanks to all of you for the clarification.
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Thank god, I don´t care about a lightening button or a more or less noisy fan... :D
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Two fewer worries for a happy bloke! :popcorn:
Thank god, I don´t care about a lightening button or a more or less noisy fan... :D
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Does anyone know what parameter D in the User Manual (UM0102XP-E01B) means? This is on page 214/335, in section 19.4 Frequency Analysis. Thanks.
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D stands for "Decimation factor" (divisor).
In the example D=4.
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That is logical. But how is this factor calculated? On what basis? Why does it have a value of 4 in the example from the User Manual? What other values can it have?
D stands for "Decimation factor" (divisor).
In the example D=4.
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I don’t know what I’ve done here. I wanted to check out the effect of ERES on random noise, as follows:
- C1 = Random noise from the AWG
- C3 = Square wave from probe calibration output
- F1 = C1 + C3
- F2 = ERES (F1)
And now the 0.5-bit option for ERES is greyed out and cannot be selected. Any idea why?
Perhaps it’s time to better go to bed...
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And now the 0.5-bit option for ERES is greyed out and cannot be selected. Any idea why?
Because the DSO is in 10 bit mode.
Look at the timebase tab. ;)
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Not really. ERES 0.5-bit is still not working with the ADC set to 8 bits. See attached.
However, it works if I do ERES(C1), but not for ERES(C1+C3). This drives me nuts! Why is only the 0.5-bit option affected? Could it be a bug, perhaps?
Because the DSO is in 10 bit mode.
Look at the timebase tab. ;)
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The SDS2104X Plus and the SSA3021X Plus otoh, both simply show a steady dim glow when connected to mains power and shut down.
My SDS2354X Plus still does the slow blinking. It's a very early specimen though.
The fact that this behavior never changed with FW updates proves that this is in the PSU and cannot be controlled by the FW.
The reason why Siglent has changed this at some point should be obvious: as always, it's been users bitching about irritating blinking lights in their labs. :)
And I have to agree with them.
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Finally I’ve found some time to measure the frequency response of the PP510 probe on a SDS2354X plus with 500 MHz option.
I ran two measurements in parallel, one with direct coax connection on channel 4 and the PP510 (in x10 mode of course) on channel 2. See attachment.
The signal level was -14 dBV (rms).
At 1 MHz, the probe measurement was -13,78 dBV, so there is an error of +0.22 dB.
At 500 MHz, the probe measurement was -16.72 dBV, the corresponding error is -2.72 dB.
The graph clearly shows that the system bandwidth is 0 to 500 MHz with +0.22 / -2.72 dB deviation.
The probe only frequency response is even better, as the difference between probe and direct connection always stays below 2 dB.
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Hi Performa,
These "oscillating" kind of graphs makes me wonder if in your setup the impedances have been off. Is your source properly terminated?
Eric
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Finally I’ve found some time to measure the frequency response of the PP510 probe on a SDS2354X plus with 500 MHz option.
I ran two measurements in parallel, one with direct coax connection on channel 4 and the PP510 (in x10 mode of course) on channel 2. See attachment.
The signal level was -14 dBV (rms).
At 1 MHz, the probe measurement was -13,78 dBV, so there is an error of +0.22 dB.
At 500 MHz, the probe measurement was -16.72 dBV, the corresponding error is -2.72 dB.
The graph clearly shows that the system bandwidth is 0 to 500 MHz with +0.22 / -2.72 dB deviation.
The probe only frequency response is even better, as the difference between probe and direct connection always stays below 2 dB.
Here is my previous measurement. Yes individual probes etc... all make small differences.
But now if look this coaxial... something is now wrong, really wrong.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1203386;image)
My measurement (can find in this thread) Coaxial transmission looks like no very bad mismatch.
ETA:Note, this is PP215 not PP510. But this have compared to coaxial cable. Previous msg have also PP215 compared to PP510 and they are very similar if look only freq response.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1212285;image)
Something is now out of order. Perhaps accidentally some mistake or failed coaxial, terminator, connector etc (1) ;)
Also there may be some small impedance difference between voltage bands but this is so small that it can not explain this.
ETA: added image about it.
(1) BNC connectors are terrible when they wear and also these have many times quality issues.
Here in this animation is perfectly same sweep using V/div 100mV and then V/div 102mV. Just this step change most low voltage range to middle range. Next change is between 1.00V|1.02V/div
(https://siglent.fi/miscpic/sekalaisia/SDS2104Xplus-1-500MHz-RG316.gif)
Note. This scope is 100MHz model SDS2104X Plus and just factory new "out from box" condition. As can see -3dB is around 180MHz
So its f.response is what it is but if there is mismatch in signal transmission it can see as "waves".
As can see there is some "waves" after 250MHz. Most low Voltage band bit more than 102mV/div - 1.00V band. (note 2dB/div when other images have 1dB/div) But far less than @Performa01 image what
@Emo noted These "oscillating" kind of graphs makes me wonder if in your setup the impedances have been off. Is your source properly terminated?.
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Oh, boy! This scope gives me a lot of headache! In addition to the previous questions posted here, which are still not clear to me:
- https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3551527/#msg3551527 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3551527/#msg3551527)
- https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3551491/#msg3551491 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3551491/#msg3551491)
what am I doing wrong this time?
I am trying to set up the user-adjustable rise-time and fall-time measurements. It works okay with percentage values. But I cannot make them work with absolute values for C1, C3, etc.: that is, for any values that I select for Horizontal parameters I get an "Invalid threshold" error message. But they seem to be working perfectly okay for the Math channels, e.g F1 (which is the sum of C1+C3). See screenshots attached.
I even calculated the absolute values to match the percentage values, and the absolute measurement setting still does not work for the C channels. What am I doing wrong here? |O
Thanks a lot!
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Something is now out of order. Perhaps accidentally some mistake or failed coaxial, terminator, connector etc (1) ;)
Thanks (also Emo!) for pointing this out.
During the probe tests, I was so used to wobbly frequency response graphs that the 1 dB peak to peak wobble with the direct coax connection didn't bother me ...
I have no idea. Im not in my usual lab and only have access to a bunch of professional BNC cables (unknown, from eBay, looks similar to RG316) with high quality connectors, which all give very similar results. Since there is no guarantee what they really are, one might suspect they might be 75 ohms. But in this case, I'd expect a much higher error and I also happen to have one crap-quality RG58 cable at hand (this has to be 50 ohms for sure) and if anything, the result looks even worse with this one.
Attached is a screenshot that compares the ?RG316? (F1) with the RG58 (F2).
BTW, quite a while ago I've checked the return loss of the SDS2000X Plus 50 ohms inputs and found them to be perfectly adequate, i.e. >14 dB up to 1 GHz. So this cannot be it, especially not since the first wobble appears at and below 100 MHz already, where the RL exceeds 26 dB.
So if it's not the scope inputs and not the cables, what else could it be?
The generator is different from my usual setup, because I only have the SDG6052X available here. But it's very unlikely the generator can have such an impact, especially as long as the termination at the scope input is reasonably correct.
Whatever; a 1 dB pk-pk wobble is not nice, yet it doesn't change the core statement of this test, which was to demonstrate how the PP510 probe interacts with the 500 MHz SDS2354X Plus.
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Oh, boy! This scope gives me a lot of headache! In addition to the previous questions posted here, which are still not clear to me:
- https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3551527/#msg3551527 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3551527/#msg3551527)
- https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3551491/#msg3551491 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3551491/#msg3551491)
what am I doing wrong this time?
I am trying to set up the user-adjustable rise-time and fall-time measurements. It works okay with percentage values. But I cannot make them work with absolute values for C1, C3, etc.: that is, for any values that I select for Horizontal parameters I get an "Invalid threshold" error message. But they seem to be working perfectly okay for the Math channels, e.g F1 (which is the sum of C1+C3). See screenshots attached.
I even calculated the absolute values to match the percentage values, and the absolute measurement setting still does not work for the C channels. What am I doing wrong here? |O
Thanks a lot!
I am getting the same errors
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Something is now out of order. Perhaps accidentally some mistake or failed coaxial, terminator, connector etc (1) ;)
Thanks (also Emo!) for pointing this out.
During the probe tests, I was so used to wobbly frequency response graphs that the 1 dB peak to peak wobble with the direct coax connection didn't bother me ...
I have no idea. Im not in my usual lab and only have access to a bunch of professional BNC cables (unknown, from eBay, looks similar to RG316) with high quality connectors, which all give very similar results. Since there is no guarantee what they really are, one might suspect they might be 75 ohms. But in this case, I'd expect a much higher error and I also happen to have one crap-quality RG58 cable at hand (this has to be 50 ohms for sure) and if anything, the result looks even worse with this one.
Attached is a screenshot that compares the ?RG316? (F1) with the RG58 (F2).
BTW, quite a while ago I've checked the return loss of the SDS2000X Plus 50 ohms inputs and found them to be perfectly adequate, i.e. >14 dB up to 1 GHz. So this cannot be it, especially not since the first wobble appears at and below 100 MHz already, where the RL exceeds 26 dB.
So if it's not the scope inputs and not the cables, what else could it be?
The generator is different from my usual setup, because I only have the SDG6052X available here. But it's very unlikely the generator can have such an impact, especially as long as the termination at the scope input is reasonably correct.
Whatever; a 1 dB pk-pk wobble is not nice, yet it doesn't change the core statement of this test, which was to demonstrate how the PP510 probe interacts with the 500 MHz SDS2354X Plus.
"yet it doesn't change the core statement of this test, which was to demonstrate how the PP510 probe interacts with the 500 MHz SDS2354X Plus." Yes also I think it do not invalidate this core statement.
Also it was not my intention when I comment this.
My comment was mainly inspired by @Emo and also myself when I see this image where signal is connected using coaxial and also I have some imagination that usually you do very perfect measurements.
It is now very clear something is somehow wrong. But now after your comment, more mysterious. And then even more after these two coaxials. I assume they both come also from separate generator outputs so that just gen out - cable - scope input.
When I look this image and previous, what FFT window you have used. (nothing to do with this wobbling)
For this kind of things I use always Flattop if not serious mandatory reason to use some other.
Just only for thinking what is big and what is small.
For just example imagined situation where all is pure resistive.
INPUT DATA
Set Source Impedance:50
Set Load Impedance R:45.25
Set Load Impedance J:0
RESULT
Absolute Load Impedance:45.25
Load Reflection Coefficient:0.0499
Load VSWR:1.105
Load Return Loss:26.04dB
Load Mismatch Attenuation:0.011dB
If pure resistive load 33.5 ohm
Absolute Load Impedance:33.5
Load Reflection Coefficient:0.1976
Load VSWR:1.493
Load Return Loss: 14.08dB
Load Mismatch Attenuation:0.173dB
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It is now very clear something is somehow wrong. But now after your comment, more mysterious. And then even more after these two coaxials. I assume they both come also from separate generator outputs so that just gen out - cable - scope input.
Your assumption is correct.
When I look this image and previous, what FFT window you have used. (nothing to do with this wobbling)
For this kind of things I use always Flattop if not serious mandatory reason to use some other.
I've used Flattop window.
Just only for thinking what is big and what is small.
For just example imagined situation where all is pure resistive.
INPUT DATA
Set Source Impedance:50
Set Load Impedance R:45.25
Set Load Impedance J:0
RESULT
Absolute Load Impedance:45.25
Load Reflection Coefficient:0.0499
Load VSWR:1.105
Load Return Loss:26.04dB
Load Mismatch Attenuation:0.011dB
If pure resistive load 33.5 ohm
Absolute Load Impedance:33.5
Load Reflection Coefficient:0.1976
Load VSWR:1.493
Load Return Loss: 14.08dB
Load Mismatch Attenuation:0.173dB
Yes, the load matching isn't ideal - and the scope input is not pure resistive for sure either.
When thinking about it, isn't a VSWR >1.1:1 (10%) per definition nearly 1 dB ripple?
On the other hand, a VSWR of up to 1:1.5 is quite typical for proper 50 ohm inputs on DSOs.
So if I'm not wrong, there is rather the question why your coax measurements look so clean and wobble-free? ;)
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Thanks. Perhaps these are bugs. I will report them in the specialized bugs thread, although I’m not sure if anyone from Siglent reads those posts or actually cares.
Oh, boy! This scope gives me a lot of headache! In addition to the previous questions posted here, which are still not clear to me:
- https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3551527/#msg3551527 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3551527/#msg3551527)
- https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3551491/#msg3551491 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3551491/#msg3551491)
what am I doing wrong this time?
I am trying to set up the user-adjustable rise-time and fall-time measurements. It works okay with percentage values. But I cannot make them work with absolute values for C1, C3, etc.: that is, for any values that I select for Horizontal parameters I get an "Invalid threshold" error message. But they seem to be working perfectly okay for the Math channels, e.g F1 (which is the sum of C1+C3). See screenshots attached.
I even calculated the absolute values to match the percentage values, and the absolute measurement setting still does not work for the C channels. What am I doing wrong here? |O
Thanks a lot!
I am getting the same errors
-
It is now very clear something is somehow wrong. But now after your comment, more mysterious. And then even more after these two coaxials. I assume they both come also from separate generator outputs so that just gen out - cable - scope input.
Your assumption is correct.
When I look this image and previous, what FFT window you have used. (nothing to do with this wobbling)
For this kind of things I use always Flattop if not serious mandatory reason to use some other.
I've used Flattop window.
Just only for thinking what is big and what is small.
For just example imagined situation where all is pure resistive.
INPUT DATA
Set Source Impedance:50
Set Load Impedance R:45.25
Set Load Impedance J:0
RESULT
Absolute Load Impedance:45.25
Load Reflection Coefficient:0.0499
Load VSWR:1.105
Load Return Loss:26.04dB
Load Mismatch Attenuation:0.011dB
If pure resistive load 33.5 ohm
Absolute Load Impedance:33.5
Load Reflection Coefficient:0.1976
Load VSWR:1.493
Load Return Loss: 14.08dB
Load Mismatch Attenuation:0.173dB
Yes, the load matching isn't ideal - and the scope input is not pure resistive for sure either.
When thinking about it, isn't a VSWR >1.1:1 (10%) per definition nearly 1 dB ripple?
On the other hand, a VSWR of up to 1:1.5 is quite typical for proper 50 ohm inputs on DSOs.
So if I'm not wrong, there is rather the question why your coax measurements look so clean and wobble-free? ;)
I am now more sure that you have some problem in some hardware you use. Scope. Cables. Generator.
I made new test. Parallel test. Using 2 RG316 cables with connectors what also mage perfect coaxial GND and center connection.
(and when I did this test I also find one my matched cable pair was bad so in this test now these cables are not perfectly equal length, nonsense here)
Signals come from SDG6000X. Both channels do same sweep 1MHz - 500MHz. Sweep time 300s.
Signal levels.
Gen Ch2 to scope CH4 roughly 0dBm. CH4 AC 50ohm.
Gen Ch1 to scope CH1 adjusted so that voltage level @1MHz is equal with CH4. CH1 AC 1Mohm - so really bad "noob style" mismatch when he forget termination. As can see there is just these waves and very roughly around same level as waves in your signal. My scale is 2dB/div.
In this test I use both voltage bands, I and II. As can see this change and it also change impedance as can see also CH4 small waves after 250-300MHz when voltage band I is in use.
If now look and compare very bad termination situation and good termination it is clear that there is really some big problem in some HW what you use. My upper trace (CH4) is as good signal transfer as can be with my available things here and lower trace CH1 have 50ohm source with 50ohm cable to scope 1M input. Not as bad as short or open but... still "horrible" and as can see least these waves are in same ballpark with you image.
But it also feels very very mysterious after all you have told... only can know something is failed or other ways wrong in your setup.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1212705;image)
Your previous image.
(https://siglent.fi/miscpic/sekalaisia/SDS2104Xplus-1-500MHz-VbwI-VbwII-2xRG316-CH1-1Mohm-CH4-50ohm.gif)
CH1 without 50ohm termination, just 1M input. RG316. Same kind of waves as in your images.
CH4 50ohm internal load resistor. RG316.
1MHz signal voltage levels matched.
Source. SDG6000X separate channels and both sweeps 1 - 500MHz and swp time 300s.
FFT window Flattop and max-hold.
You Wonder, In my pictures, the signal drawings are smooth.
Well... When I go on a bus as a gray-headed elderly people here in China, the young peoples get up beautifully and offer a seat place even though I often thank and show that I can stand.
Could it be that the test devices are behaving somehow proportionally same and behaving beautifully front of me.
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That last observation just seems to be a Chinese version of "Sod's Law". :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sod%27s_law
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That last observation just seems to be a Chinese version of "Sod's Law". :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sod%27s_law
Nah, man from Finland helping man from Austria find error in his setup. ;)
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SCOPE DC OFFSET
I've had my SDS2104X Plus a few months and hardly used it.. so am not over familiar with its features etc. Just need to look at some low voltages and note that with all channels zeroed and no probes connected, I'm getting up to 10mV ( one division ) offset on the channels all set to x10 probe.
Two are positive by about 8mV and 10mv, the other two are negative by about 8mV and 6mV on the 10mV range.
At 5mv range the worst trace is off by a a quarter of the screens resolution.
Is there a cal function .. is this expected? What's going on?
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SCOPE DC OFFSET
I've had my SDS2104X Plus a few months and hardly used it.. so am not over familiar with its features etc. Just need to look at some low voltages and note that with all channels zeroed and no probes connected, I'm getting up to 10mV ( one division ) offset on the channels all set to x10 probe.
Two are positive by about 8mV and 10mv, the other two are negative by about 8mV and 6mV on the 10mV range.
At 5mv range the worst trace is off by a a quarter of the screens resolution.
Is there a cal function .. is this expected? What's going on?
There is a SelfCal function, that you should use any time temperature in room differs mor than few °C from last time you did SelCal. Consult manual.
It is normal, even for 25000 USD scopes (actually especially for those)..
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That last observation just seems to be a Chinese version of "Sod's Law". :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sod%27s_law
Nah, man from Finland helping man from Austria find error in his setup. ;)
Mystery solved.
Since I did these measurements outside my lab, I’ve grabbed a bunch of cables that rested in a box for many years, originally from eBay, but never used since. There were a bunch of used cables, which were supposed to be RG316. It was my very first suspicion that they could be 75 ohms (e.g. RG179), but another eBay purchase out of that box, this time not used but in original sealed plastic bags, yet crappy no name cables (clearly labelled as “RG58”), produced very similar results – and this was my only reference at that time.
Meanwhile I have grabbed some known quality cables from my lab and with them the ripple is almost completely gone (<0.2 dB). At the same time, insertion loss is much lower too. See attached screenshots, where you can compare a 100 cm Hyperflex 5 cable (low loss, high shielding) to a crappy NN alleged RG58. The latter is completely unusable and interestingly gives very similar results as the supposed RG316. But this RG58 has crappy connectors too, which make intermittent contact at best.
Of course this also means that the originally used cables were indeed 75 ohms, most likely RG179. I should have known better from the beginning – if you buy used BNC cables anywhere, the probability of getting something from an old video installation is very high…
At least we now know for sure that there is not a problem with either the generator or the DSO.
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That last observation just seems to be a Chinese version of "Sod's Law". :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sod%27s_law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sod%27s_law)
Nah, man from Finland helping man from Austria find error in his setup. ;)
Mystery solved.
Since I did these measurements outside my lab, I’ve grabbed a bunch of cables that rested in a box for many years, originally from eBay, but never used since. There were a bunch of used cables, which were supposed to be RG316. It was my very first suspicion that they could be 75 ohms (e.g. RG179), but another eBay purchase out of that box, this time not used but in original sealed plastic bags, yet crappy no name cables (clearly labelled as “RG58”), produced very similar results – and this was my only reference at that time.
Meanwhile I have grabbed some known quality cables from my lab and with them the ripple is almost completely gone (<0.2 dB). At the same time, insertion loss is much lower too. See attached screenshots, where you can compare a 100 cm Hyperflex 5 cable (low loss, high shielding) to a crappy NN alleged RG58. The latter is completely unusable and interestingly gives very similar results as the supposed RG316. But this RG58 has crappy connectors too, which make intermittent contact at best.
Of course this also means that the originally used cables were indeed 75 ohms, most likely RG179. I should have known better from the beginning – if you buy used BNC cables anywhere, the probability of getting something from an old video installation is very high…
At least we now know for sure that there is not a problem with either the generator or the DSO.
Very excellent, mystery is now solved.
Btw, warning need give also for some new cables and connectors, not only secondhand.
This is really heavy problem after all kind of sellers in many many places, eBay. Ali, Tao, and endless list...
It is really frustrating to find again and again bad measurement results due to crap cables and connectors.. Next time I come here I take one baggage just for Huber+Suhner and some other high quality things... oh yes in China also some do good connectors but problem looks like that no one sell these in local taobao etc..
example CenRF is one good name and Zdecl very good, http://en.zdecl.com/ (http://en.zdecl.com/) Really nice company btw.
But I have not found good source for small QTY for personal use.
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@Performa01
You can sanity check such 'Chinese' cables if you have some means to measure capacitance in picoFarads (or at least in increments of 0.01nanoFarads) and the cable's length.
Most 50 ohm coax cables exhibit close to a value of 100pF/m whilst 75 ohm cables will typically show a value around the 70pF/m mark (although a 3.3m UHF TV antenna patch lead I tested gave a reading of 170pf - 52pF/m). Surprisingly, if the table linked below can be entirely trusted (it was the first one that included the capacitance per unit length figures - there are probably better sources if you can find them), there can be significant variations from these figures (surely the definition of coaxial cable impedance depends largely on its capacitance per metre value unless an unusual geometry for the centre conductor is being employed? :-//).
Irritatingly, the unit of length measurement used in that table for the capacitance is the foot requiring a conversion multiplier factor value of 3.3333 to obtain the capacitance per metre value.
https://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/coax-chart.htm (https://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/coax-chart.htm)
Whilst checking a few of my own coax patch leads, I discovered a 1m specimen that showed a value of just 81.5pF rather than the more typical 100pF or so I'd been seeing with my other 1m 50 ohm patch leads. Intrigued, I looked for cable markings to identify it but only found a rather cryptic '3D-FB' printed on the jacket. I DDGed it and found this informative page:-
http://www.caledonian-cables.com/products/coaxial-cables/3d-fb.html (http://www.caledonian-cables.com/products/coaxial-cables/3d-fb.html)
which, to my surprise, quoted a figure of 82 pF/m which left me feeling rather pleased with my 6 or 7 quid investment in this LCR meter I'd built from a Banggood supplied kit. :)
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My new SDG6000X series AWG came with two one-metre, 3D-FB, BNC-ended coaxial cables. I had no idea about their characteristics since I had never heard about this designation before. Thanks for providing this useful information.
Whilst checking a few of my own coax patch leads, I discovered a 1m specimen that showed a value of just 81.5pF rather than the more typical 100pF or so I'd been seeing with my other 1m 50 ohm patch leads. Intrigued, I looked for cable markings to identify it but only found a rather cryptic '3D-FB' printed on the jacket. I DDGed it and found this informative page:-
http://www.caledonian-cables.com/products/coaxial-cables/3d-fb.html (http://www.caledonian-cables.com/products/coaxial-cables/3d-fb.html)
which, to my surprise, quoted a figure of 82 pF/m which left me feeling rather pleased with my 6 or 7 quid investment in this LCR meter I'd built from a Banggood supplied kit. :)
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My new SDG6000X series AWG came with two one-metre, 3D-FB, BNC-ended coaxial cables.
Yes the standard 1 GHz BNC cables Siglent provides with some products and also offers as an accessory:
https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/cables/
Notably Siglent NA don't list their 18 GHz cables whereas Siglent INT and Siglent EU do: :-//
https://int.siglent.com/article/detail-714.html
https://int.siglent.com/article/detail-715.html
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@Performa01
You can sanity check such 'Chinese' cables if you have some means to measure capacitance in picoFarads (or at least in increments of 0.01nanoFarads) and the cable's length.
Well, that’s a nice idea and in my case it should have worked, because when you think you have RG316 cables (97 pF/m), you should be able to clearly distinguish them from the only possible alternative, the physically similar RG179 (63 pF/m).
Right now I cannot spend much time in my lab (which is in my 2nd residence far away) so I only have the most needed tools here in my regular home – up to now, an LCR meter has not been amongst them.
It might still not be so straight forward if you have some unknown cables – or higher quality cables in general.
On the other hand, most 75 ohms cables are white, so any potential confusion is limited to a few bread & butter types again.
Yes, the bread & butter 50 ohms cables like RG58, RG174, RG213, RG223 are all 101 pF/m, whereas 75 ohms cables are much lower: RG59 (67.6 pF/m), RG179 (63 pF/m).
Yet other, especially high quality (Low Loss) 50 ohms cables usually have lower capacitance as well:
RG316 97 pF/m
MULTIFLEX_86 95 pF/m
H155A01 84 pF/m
3D-FB 84 pF/m
S_04212_B 82 pF/m
CLF200 80 pF/m
HyperFlex 5 74 pF/m
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I was scanning that rfcafe.com list to see if there were any anomalies (remember my suspicions about the 75 ohm cables with higher than the 52pF/m I measured on old style semi-air spaced UHF co-ax and the more typical 55pF/m for its modern day replacement, CT100 PE foam dielectric?) and spotted a value of 12pF/Ft (40pF/m) for the RG223 cable.
Since this cable is only slightly thicker than RG58 cable, allowing it to be confused with other similar gauge 50 ohm cables and, if the pF/Ft were actually true, a simple capacitance test would lead to its rejection by reason of it measuring as a 93 or 95 ohm cable, I decided to search for datasheets for RG223 cable, landing up on Pasternack's site to download this datasheet from here: -
https://www.pasternack.com/images/ProductPDF/RG223-U.pdf (https://www.pasternack.com/images/ProductPDF/RG223-U.pdf)
(this was before I spotted the RG223 in your list of 50 ohm coax cables with typical 101pF/m figures).
I repeated my search and downloaded this pdf from a link on the Farnell web site:-
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2921248.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2921248.pdf)
All of which confirmed my suspicions that not all of those entries in that rfcafe.com list can be trusted. It's a handy list but you need to check out any entries that show unusual values for the pF/Ft figure which is what the 'sanity check' capacitance measurement is relying upon as a means of estimating the most likely Zo value for an 'unknown cable'.
I suspect this was most likely simply a transcription error made when that list had first been compiled. It's quite possible there may be some more such errors giving the impression that some of those cable have somehow stepped outside of the laws of physics (as we understand them ::)).
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FYI a good overview (made for HAMs) of 50 ohms coax, unfortunately in German but I think it's self explaining.
https://www.funkamateur.de/bauelemente-2.html?file=tl_files/downloads/bauelementeinfo/Koaxialkabel_2.pdf (https://www.funkamateur.de/bauelemente-2.html?file=tl_files/downloads/bauelementeinfo/Koaxialkabel_2.pdf)
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I was scanning that rfcafe.com list to see if there were any anomalies (remember my suspicions about the 75 ohm cables with higher than the 52pF/m I measured on old style semi-air spaced UHF co-ax and the more typical 55pF/m for its modern day replacement, CT100 PE foam dielectric?) and spotted a value of 12pF/Ft (40pF/m) for the RG223 cable.
Since this cable is only slightly thicker than RG58 cable, allowing it to be confused with other similar gauge 50 ohm cables and, if the pF/Ft were actually true, a simple capacitance test would lead to its rejection by reason of it measuring as a 93 or 95 ohm cable, I decided to search for datasheets for RG223 cable, landing up on Pasternack's site to download this datasheet from here: -
https://www.pasternack.com/images/ProductPDF/RG223-U.pdf (https://www.pasternack.com/images/ProductPDF/RG223-U.pdf)
(this was before I spotted the RG223 in your list of 50 ohm coax cables with typical 101pF/m figures).
I repeated my search and downloaded this pdf from a link on the Farnell web site:-
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2921248.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2921248.pdf)
All of which confirmed my suspicions that not all of those entries in that rfcafe.com list can be trusted. It's a handy list but you need to check out any entries that show unusual values for the pF/Ft figure which is what the 'sanity check' capacitance measurement is relying upon as a means of estimating the most likely Zo value for an 'unknown cable'.
I suspect this was most likely simply a transcription error made when that list had first been compiled. It's quite possible there may be some more such errors giving the impression that some of those cable have somehow stepped outside of the laws of physics (as we understand them ::)).
Even datasheets can contain (not too few) errors, all the more so webpages that collect a vast amount of data in one big table…
And then there is the sad fact that data sheets are often incomplete. For example, I could not find a specification for the capacitance of the very popular CS29 cable – otherwise I would have included it in my table.
Anyway, even with correct data it’s not straight forward if you have cables from a dubious source. Take my standard lab cable for example, HyperFlex 5 (from a reputable source of course). Despite the huge difference in quality, one might confuse it with RG59 because of the similar diameter, same color – even the minimal bending radius is the same, although the HyperFlex 5 actually feels notably stiffer.
A capacitance measurement has to be fairly accurate to clearly distinguish 67.6 pF/m from 74 pF/m. This should not be a problem as long as you have, say, 10 meters of each cable available. But in practice your piece of cable is less than 2 meters, sometimes even only 25 cm. In this case, stray capacitances might become a major problem - and you have plugs on either end of the cable, which also add some capacitance (that would be roughly the same for any cable), thus additionally swamping the difference in measurement.
In case of BNC cables (and there will hardly be any other connectors used in a lab and for video alike), we can have a look at the pin of the plug. It is thinner for the 75 ohms connector. That was the final evidence for me that the “RG316” was actually some 75 ohms cable.
One mystery remains: my crappy RG58 cables. I bought them as “new” (and they looked like new indeed), sealed in plastic bags, from a professional German eBay seller some ten years ago. If I look at the jacket, I can see “RG58 COAXIAL CABLE 50OHM” printed on it. The plug has the thicker pin (although totally corroded!), so it has to be 50 ohms indeed. Yet this cable performs at least as bad as the 75 ohms cable did.
Of course I have good quality RG58 too. Just because it was for a different location, I didn’t want to take everything away from my lab but rather thought why not finally put these brand new cables out of this old, untouched purchase to good use at home?
For more serious (and precise) measurements, we don’t want to use standard cables with their high insertion loss anyway. We want low loss and high shielding, which neither RG58 nor RG316 can provide.
In the light of this, it was a rather thoughtless action to include a (supposed) 1.2 mtr RG316 coax connection as reference for the probe measurement. Apart from the ripple, the difference in insertion loss should be obvious.
Here’s the insertion loss at 600 MHz and shielding at a certain frequency for some popular cables:
HyperFlex 5: ~0.20 dB/m, >105 dB @ 100-2000 MHz
RG400: 0.36 dB/m, >81 dB up to 6000 MHz
RG223: 0.43 dB/m, >83 dB up to 1000 MHz
RG58: 0.50 dB/m, >38 dB up to 1000 MHz
RG316: 0.60 dB/m, >38 dB up to 1000 MHz
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Folks,
I just contributed changes to scopehal to support SDS2000X+. Although scopehal works perfectly well as a scope front end the speed at which you can pull data off the 2000X+ means it's much better suited as a post-processing tool for all sorts of applications....here's it being used for SWD decode on some pretty awfully probed SWDIO/SWCLK signals, for example;
(https://i.ibb.co/g4VCBMh/swd.png)
Scopehal, and this driver, should be considered alpha quality and there's work needed, but if anyone fancies helping out with some testing and even coding feel free to head over to https://github.com/azonenberg/scopehal-apps (https://github.com/azonenberg/scopehal-apps) and take a look. There is a supporting discord channel too.
DAVE
I got a PM......
Wants to know how to get GIF's or live video captures from SDS2kX Plus.
We see rf-loop do these things to post here but exactly how is it best done ?
Can the above app do it ?
Advice and wisdom please.
TIA
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Live video from the scope is through the VNC protocol. I'm sure any VNC client will allow to grab frames and store them as GIF. If the above program supports VNC, should be possible.
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Live video from the scope is through the VNC protocol. I'm sure any VNC client will allow to grab frames and store them as GIF. If the above program supports VNC, should be possible.
Thanks.
It would be nice to see someone provide a small example and a dummies guide.
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Honestly, why should any of this be a surprise? You're likely to get better returns from mass manufacturing if you make both probes using the same materials and techniques, and then separate them on the basis of the result of quality checks, than by manufacturing them using different materials and/or techniques.
For such a low cost item post-production testing costs more than the production itself costs. And on top of that the manufacturer doesn't know whether they produce enough of either quality to fullfil demand.
Well, presuming for the moment that they do the testing at all, if they aren't producing enough of the higher-spec model to fulfill demand due to too many failures (and thus too many being binned into the lower-spec category), then that would mean they have a quality control problem on the production side, since the higher-spec version is the manufacturing target.
If they aren't getting enough failures to meet demand for the lower-spec model then they'll just backfill with production of the higher-spec model.
All of this presumes that they do some kind of quality checks of the end product that would allow this kind of differentiation. Maybe they do and maybe they don't.
IMHO stories about mass-produced products being binned based on specs are grossly exaggerated (IOW: urban myth).
If that's the case, then obviously the right answer is to mass produce the same higher-spec thing and just ship that. If you're going to forego the per-unit quality checks anyway then you are certainly going to be cost-sensitive enough to use the same materials, techniques, tooling, etc. for all of the units. Slap different labels on them to "differentiate" them and you're done.
Also, if you're just doing random sampling of the units, then that won't be enough to make binning possible, and you'd obviously just test the sample for the higher spec because failure of that is what you're going to care about.
In any case, the point is that the near-identical performance between two adjacent models of probes from the same manufacturer shouldn't be a surprise in the slightest.
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And now the 0.5-bit option for ERES is greyed out and cannot be selected. Any idea why?
Because the DSO is in 10 bit mode.
Look at the timebase tab. ;)
The timebase is the last place I'd expect to see something about the vertical resolution, seeing how the timebase is all about the horizontal characteristics.
I get why they put it there: it's a setting that affects all channels. And I don't see any good place on the screen to put it, really. But it's an unintuitive place to put it all the same.
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Hello World,
I am new to this forum and very excited about the professional information exchange.
I recently bought a SDS2104X Plus and have to say that it is a real great scope.
During a sine wave measurement I recognized that the amplitude measurement is somewhat strange.
Signal characteristics:
f=1kHz
5V amplitude
0V DC offset
The oscilloscope measures frequency, max_voltage, min_voltage, peak_peak_voltage and rms correctly.
For whatever reason, the measured amplitude is not at all close to 5 volts, but similar to the peak to peak voltage. :scared:
I just wanted to understand if somebody else also observed this strange behaviour on amplitude measurement.
Attached a screenshot of the oscilloscope reading.
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The oscilloscope measures frequency, max_voltage, min_voltage, peak_peak_voltage and rms correctly.
For whatever reason, the measured amplitude is not at all close to 5 volts, but similar to the peak to peak voltage. :scared:
I just wanted to understand if somebody else also observed this strange behaviour on amplitude measurement.
This does appear to tie up with Siglent's definition of Amplitude taken from the user manual.
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The oscilloscope measures frequency, max_voltage, min_voltage, peak_peak_voltage and rms correctly.
For whatever reason, the measured amplitude is not at all close to 5 volts, but similar to the peak to peak voltage. :scared:
Yes, even though amplitude measurements are only valid for pulse waveforms, it will measure close to peak-peak when accidentally applied to a sine wave.
A quick look at the user manual or even the description in the measurement window (that appears when the amplitude measurement is selected) should make it clear what an amplitude measurement is.
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The oscilloscope measures frequency, max_voltage, min_voltage, peak_peak_voltage and rms correctly.
For whatever reason, the measured amplitude is not at all close to 5 volts, but similar to the peak to peak voltage. :scared:
Yes, even though amplitude measurements are only valid for pulse waveforms, it will measure close to peak-peak when accidentally applied to a sine wave.
A quick look at the user manual or even the description in the measurement window (that appears when the amplitude measurement is selected) should make it clear what an amplitude measurement is.
:-+
thx Performa01 and tubularnut for your quick responses.
You are absolutely right with respect to the description in the user manual and quick help menu.
Nevertheless, the way Siglent interprets amplitude is - at least in my mind - very confusing.
A sine wave signal is described by the formula: y=A*sin(t), where A is the amplitude.
See also wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplitude (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplitude)
Peak to peak equals 2*A and RMS is A/SQR(2).
Siglent probably calculates RMS from peak-peak, thus V_RMS = V_pk-pk/2/SQR(2).
My take away is, that amplitude measurement is meaningless with SDS2104XPlus oscilloscope on sine wave signals.
The way to derive amplitude is to divide peak-peak by 2.
Again, thanks a lot for your help and clarification.
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To add to already excellent responses.
Hate to be stickler, but link to wikipedia is not exactly in line with your statement. On that graph they define 3 different definitions for amplitude for 3 different measurements: peak amplitude (really wrong name for peak absolute value), P-P amplitude and RMS amplitude..
Scope measurements (not only Siglent, mind you) names are not necessarily mathematically rigorous naming. That is hard to do sometimes. Names given are practical, mnemonic words that hint at measurements function. Incidentally, on Keysight scopes they have same measurement with exactly the same name :"Amplitude".
To be precise, as explained in manual, if you measure pulses, and want to know P-P value of pulse from bottom plateau (part of pulse when pulse settles from undershoot and oscillations to a stable value) to top plateau (defined in same manner as bottom, just for the top), Siglent provided that measurement and it is called "Amplitude", to make a distinction to a P-P amplitude measurement that would include any under/overshot and oscillations, measuring between absolute minimums and maximums.....
So if you want to figure out what are logic levels in some circuit, on SDS2000X+ you use "amplitude" measurement. If you want to see if all under/overshots are within the specs for the logic family or chip in question, you use P-P.
For sinewave, you would not have a need for that type of measurement because it doesn't have that kind of shape to make it sensible.
And also, SDS2000X+ ( and all other scopes with same measurements) have RMS and Stdev measurement. Keysight calls those RMS and AC RMS respectively. And they are not calculated from P-P value by any means, but directly calculated by propper RMS of measurement points in waveform. Make a note that what is called RMS is AC+DC RMS and will differ from AC RMS (stdev)if signal have DC offset...
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This does appear to tie up with Siglent's definition of Amplitude taken from the user manual.
Siglent has their own definition of "amplitude? :palm:
Yes, even though amplitude measurements are only valid for pulse waveforms, it will measure close to peak-peak when accidentally applied to a sine wave.
That sounds like an "accident" that might happen very often...
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This does appear to tie up with Siglent's definition of Amplitude taken from the user manual.
Siglent has their own definition of "amplitude? :palm:
Do you really need to demonstrate your ignorance even in threads about Instruments that you’ve never even come close to?
Nearly every serious DSO manufacturer has the Amplitude measurement, following the exact same definition as Siglent does. See the attached excerpts from Kesysight, LeCroy, Rohde & Schwarz and Tektronix. And yes, even Goodwill have it.
For all the Rigol fanboys, I’ve had a look at the MSO5000 and – hurray – even Rigol has it. They just call it differently. We cannot know why Rigol names it “Vamp” when everyone else calls it “Amplitude”, but we do know that intelligent humans should be able to recognize that it’s the same.
Siglent bashing can be a hard job – only promising for knowledgeable people with some experience in T&M.
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Siglent has their own definition of "amplitude? :palm:
A classic own goal... ;)
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Hello,
maybe I am wrong and I have missunderstood CAN-Trigger and decode or its a real bug.
When I change to trigger setup choose "serial" then protocol "CAN"
I get only one source presented under "Signal".
As far as I know it must be 2 channels one for CAN-H and one for CAN-L isn't it?
The documentation in 16.5.1 CAN Signal Setting speak about "connect CAN-H and CAN-L and then set the mapping realtion between the two channels" too.
But how do I make this?
I thought is like i2c where are two sources present but in this case its not. By the way its the same on CAN-FD.
Firmware is the latest 1.3.7R5
Any hints ?
Regards Chris
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CAN is differential, so there is no different information on Can-Lo and CAN-Hi.
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CAN is differential, so there is no different information on Can-Lo and CAN-Hi.
Yes you are right.
I have read some documents about CAN in the meantime and it is as you said.
The information is on both the same only one is inverted.
Regards chris
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Thanks. Perhaps these are bugs. I will report them in the specialized bugs thread, although I’m not sure if anyone from Siglent reads those posts or actually cares.
Oh, boy! This scope gives me a lot of headache! In addition to the previous questions posted here, which are still not clear to me:
- https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3551527/#msg3551527 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3551527/#msg3551527)
- https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3551491/#msg3551491 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3551491/#msg3551491)
what am I doing wrong this time?
I am trying to set up the user-adjustable rise-time and fall-time measurements. It works okay with percentage values. But I cannot make them work with absolute values for C1, C3, etc.: that is, for any values that I select for Horizontal parameters I get an "Invalid threshold" error message. But they seem to be working perfectly okay for the Math channels, e.g F1 (which is the sum of C1+C3). See screenshots attached.
I even calculated the absolute values to match the percentage values, and the absolute measurement setting still does not work for the C channels. What am I doing wrong here? |O
Thanks a lot!
I am getting the same errors
Just browsed through the release notes of a beta version of the next firmware.
Most if not all of what has been discussed in the last few months seems to have been addressed. :)
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Well, I think it´s time to "clean up" the bug thread, when the new firmware comes up.
I currently have vacation for 3 weeks, I´ll start with it at the forthcomung weekend.
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Well, I think it´s time to "clean up" the bug thread, when the new firmware comes up.
I currently have vacation for 3 weeks, I´ll start with it at the forthcomung weekend.
They might have a tweak or 2 to do before public release as some of us have already provided feedback on some simple things proposed in the release notes however this is only for new scopes outta the factory whereas those that already know and use these scopes and have already made their preferred settings it should not affect them.
Whether or not we get listened to is another matter.
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Hi Rob,
I´ve meant it in general, what we´ve noticed so far in this thread, what was solved from siglent, what´s still to do and so on...
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Just browsed through the release notes of a beta version of the next firmware.
Most if not all of what has been discussed in the last few months seems to have been addressed. :)
Where can I find this information?
Would be interesting to read what's coming up next :-)
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Just browsed through the release notes of a beta version of the next firmware.
Most if not all of what has been discussed in the last few months seems to have been addressed. :)
Where can I find this information?
Would be interesting to read what's coming up next :-)
You can't... Tautech has some info from beta test proces.. He already said all he can.. :scared:
What can I say, he's a tease.... >:D
Unfortunately, you'll need to wait and see... :popcorn:
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Just browsed through the release notes of a beta version of the next firmware.
Most if not all of what has been discussed in the last few months seems to have been addressed. :)
Where can I find this information?
Would be interesting to read what's coming up next :-)
You can't... Tautech has some info from beta test proces.. He already said all he can.. :scared:
What can I say, he's a tease.... >:D
More teasing.... >:D
~35 changes coming plus a few further requests added since the beta FW was put in front of beta testers.
I can say it will be well worth the wait and not just for the fixes but also the new features added.
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Feel like a child can´t wait for christmas ;D
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Looking forward to it. It's been a long wait... almost nine months. Fingers crossed! :popcorn:
More teasing.... >:D
~35 changes coming plus a few further requests added since the beta FW was put in front of beta testers.
I can say it will be well worth the wait and not just for the fixes but also the new features added.
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New Siglent option bundle promotion:
For all sales areas except NA unfortunately. :(
Expires Sept 30 2021
With new purchases of SDS2000X Plus DSO's:
MSO SPL2016 HW with license and 50 MHz AWG/FG license for just $ 219 !
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-49.html
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New Siglent option bundle promotion:
For all sales areas except NA unfortunately. :(
Expires Sept 30 2021
With new purchases of SDS2000X Plus DSO's:
MSO SPL2016 HW with license and 50 MHz AWG/FG license for just $ 219 !
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-49.html
On the page for that link it says, "This promotion is only applicable to the European and AAAS region". What is AAAS region? Does the new purchase need to be made within the promotion period? I bought mine last month, would that qualify?
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New Siglent option bundle promotion:
For all sales areas except NA unfortunately. :(
Expires Sept 30 2021
With new purchases of SDS2000X Plus DSO's:
MSO SPL2016 HW with license and 50 MHz AWG/FG license for just $ 219 !
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-49.html (https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-49.html)
On the page for that link it says, "This promotion is only applicable to the European and AAAS region". What is AAAS region? Does the new purchase need to be made within the promotion period? I bought mine last month, would that qualify?
It is well and detailed told in Siglent web side. https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/summer-time-special-bundle-save-up-to-e496-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/summer-time-special-bundle-save-up-to-e496-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/)
There is said example these
For a limited time, all new SDS2000X Plus purchases can get an option bundle for only €199. This bundle includes the SPL2016 and MSO and function generator activation licenses.
1. The SDS2000X Plus series oscilloscopes must be purchased from an authorized SIGLENT distributor.
.
.
.
5. All Offers are valid from August 2nd , 2021 to September 30th, 2021.
If purchased before 2.8.21 it is NOT new purchase inside 2.8. - 30.9.2021.
Old time I remember I purchase very expensive prosumer grade video camera (somewhere late -80s. Price was more than my quite good salary at this time in two month. Just after some days there come big offer... not more than around 50%... I remember my feel... life is... )
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I don't have this scope, but I'm curious of a couple of things for audio use.
1. There was a post a while ago asking about getting THD calculated when using the FFT. Any news about that?
2. Would be nice to be able to display watts, and perhaps the formula editor could be the way to go. I can't see any way of using measurements in the editor however. Is it possible to enter something like this? RMS(C1) * RMS(C1) / 8
Ideally it would be a custom "measurement" since it doesn't need a trace, but I can't see a way of doing that.
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I´ve meant it in general, what we´ve noticed so far in this thread, what was solved from siglent, what´s still to do and so on...
Since today I have may a new one using current FW... (did not search on this lengthy thread)
1. running on 8 bit, vector display mode, on CH1 a digital square wave (0.3 low to 3V high) as 10MHz with 0.5ns rise/falling time
2. trigger about the half of the wave, show with cursor some 20% to 80% rise time as 0.5ns
3. add also color mode
4. all looks fine so far showing about 2 waves, with some small overshoots
than as soon I
5. enable Ch2, with or without 50E input, as nothing to display just enabled
6. On Ch1, the edges and overshoots gets modulated as like 50Hz, changed square from 10MHz to 49Mhz with same behavior
7. Change than from vector to pixel mode
8. :-DD all looks than fine .... No any more edge modulations visible :-+
is this known?
IMHO it would be nice to have a thread moderated with current |O so easier to track as a bug tracking system :popcorn:
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I think, this will fitting better in the bug/missing features thread...
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I´ve meant it in general, what we´ve noticed so far in this thread, what was solved from siglent, what´s still to do and so on...
Since today I have may a new one using current FW... (did not search on this lengthy thread)
1. running on 8 bit, vector display mode, on CH1 a digital square wave (0.3 low to 3V high) as 10MHz with 0.5ns rise/falling time
2. trigger about the half of the wave, show with cursor some 20% to 80% rise time as 0.5ns
3. add also color mode
4. all looks fine so far showing about 2 waves, with some small overshoots
than as soon I
5. enable Ch2, with or without 50E input, as nothing to display just enabled
6. On Ch1, the edges and overshoots gets modulated as like 50Hz, changed square from 10MHz to 49Mhz with same behavior
7. Change than from vector to pixel mode
8. :-DD all looks than fine .... No any more edge modulations visible :-+
is this known?
IMHO it would be nice to have a thread moderated with current |O so easier to track as a bug tracking system :popcorn:
How about if you enable CH1 and CH3 ?
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is this known?
It's entirely expected if you figure out the actual bandwidth of the signal you are looking at vs. the sample rate in the two configurations (CH1 only vs CH1 + CH2). Also, in vector mode the scope does a sinc interpolation of each frame and overlays the resulting lines from each frame, whereas in dot mode it simply overlays the dots. If the sample clock was exactly matched to the input frequency at some fixed ratio, this wouldn't make much difference, but since it isn't, the samples all line up differently with the edge of the waveform each cycle, a sort of faux ETS. That's good for dots, bad for vectors if you are getting close to the Nyquist limit.
I'm assuming you have this hacked to 500MHz. What is generating the input signal?
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I´ve meant it in general, what we´ve noticed so far in this thread, what was solved from siglent, what´s still to do and so on...
Since today I have may a new one using current FW... (did not search on this lengthy thread)
1. running on 8 bit, vector display mode, on CH1 a digital square wave (0.3 low to 3V high) as 10MHz with 0.5ns rise/falling time
2. trigger about the half of the wave, show with cursor some 20% to 80% rise time as 0.5ns
3. add also color mode
4. all looks fine so far showing about 2 waves, with some small overshoots
than as soon I
5. enable Ch2, with or without 50E input, as nothing to display just enabled
6. On Ch1, the edges and overshoots gets modulated as like 50Hz, changed square from 10MHz to 49Mhz with same behavior
7. Change than from vector to pixel mode
8. :-DD all looks than fine .... No any more edge modulations visible :-+
is this known?
IMHO it would be nice to have a thread moderated with current |O so easier to track as a bug tracking system :popcorn:
Btw, fast edges corners wobbling is not modulation... it is one form of aliasing and also possible "gibbs ears" (Gibbs phdenomenon) due to Sinc interpolation when not enough samples.
Long time ago I have somehow tried tell about Sequential Acquisition Random Interleaving (SARI) just my name for it for make clear it is not same as LeCroy RIS aka Random Interleaved Sampling mode, but somehow its small cousin.
But unfortunately it is only by my native Finnish language.. here (near end of page). (https://siglent.fi/oskilloscope-info-interpolation.html)
The feature can be used in many situations as long as user know its features and limits in the particular oscilloscope user are using, in this case Siglent. But with it is also very easy to drop to trap. (one critical parameter is trigger engine used data stream and its sample interval what is not always same as ADC current displayed samplerate. )
Here signal is 45MHz square wave... and samplerate is 50MSa/s selected just for demonstration. Square wave freq 45MHz and sampled 50MSa/s. Where 3rd harmonic is 5.4*fNyquist
(https://siglent.fi/data/examples/sinc/Gif5-Dots(SARI)-45MHz-Square--fNyq-25MHz-decimated-samplefreq-50MHz.gif)
Of course depending signal ans scope and settings it may look much more nice and also without persistence, when wfm/s is enough.
btw, carefully look samplerate and displayed signal frequency.
One acquisition have only small amount of dots... display frame have many acquistions overlaid (as many acquistions as it have done in last TFT cycle). One single acquisition dots are marked red.
(https://siglent.fi/data/examples/sinc/Frame-10.gif-In-Gif5-dots(sari)-45MHz.png)
Also here is forum is some old treads about these things with some examples if I remember right.
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Does that still work at the maximum sample rate (in order to get superresolution beyond the maximum sample rate), or is this functionality limited to lower sample rates?
[ If the acquisition sample rate is lower, and the ADC still runs at full speed, then the signal is oversampled anway in the first place, and RIS-like downsampling to the acquisition sample rate can be emulataed digitally in the FPGA w/o need for a TDC or varying ADC clock phase. ]
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How about if you enable CH1 and CH3 ?
Yeah :-DD :palm: ...
gear needs replaced by professional stuff as it goes with SSA 200Hz Span & 1Hz BW and synthesizer jitter (also wobbling)
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How about if you enable CH1 and CH3 ?
Yeah :-DD :palm: ...
gear needs replaced by professional stuff as it goes with SSA 200Hz Span & 1Hz BW and synthesizer jitter (also wobbling)
??
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SSA 200Hz Span & 1Hz BW and synthesizer jitter (also wobbling)
??
See pictures....
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SSA 200Hz Span & 1Hz BW and synthesizer jitter (also wobbling)
??
See pictures....
Again, what are we looking at ???
Please explain.
- What is the source of the signal and what are the characteristics of it?
- What is it that you try to prove and show? Your signal source is unstable? Scope display and or FFT is unstable? Spectrum analyser display is unstable??
- How does data you're showing prove and explain your point?
Best,
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And, if it is possible, please show us plots of the same signal source obtained with "proper" instrument.
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SSA 200Hz Span & 1Hz BW and synthesizer jitter (also wobbling)
??
See pictures....
Please if you have issues with a SSA then please post them in the appropriate thread along with model #, FW version, test setup and anything else that can't be determined from screenshots.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/)
WRT previous comments about bug tracking and fixes, please consult the SDS2000X Plus Firmware Revision Record and Upgrade Instructions PDF that is part of the FW package. For your convenience the current version is attached below.
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>> SSA 200Hz Span & 1Hz BW and synthesizer jitter (also wobbling)
The plots where also given on a SSA thread, currently do not find any more... even with search.
May split the board into engineering & bug tracking and hacking :-DD
This plots shows the analysis of its own 10MHz reference source. Same as using a 10MHz 120dBc@1Hz OXCO. This means the
limitation is the used synthesizer.... just as similar is used on SDS2K so the plots went here in.
I used my Tek Scope 2464B (400MHz) and shows up about a 1ns rising/falling edge with some more overshoots as seen on a Keysight MSO3104. All signal used by a SMA & 50E connections. Even the active FET probe as 1G /3pf shows more overshoots using shortest connections. Output is OXCO & TI buffer driver, as spec's about 700ps Ts/Fs.
The question rises about the required samples at the slopes.... IMHO about 5..10 samples to get any accurate about slope and overshoots. While new on DSO, but get the feeling about a required 20Gs DSO for 1h measurement ... XX-K$ to spend or better to rent.
So using a SDS2K model with limited synthesizer precision's and channel behaviors (I guess as from the SSA model) a Sampling Scope or xxGs DSO with nice jitter measurements :-+ Just to understand an 1ps variation is at one Terra Hz :palm:
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You mean Tektronix 2465b analog oscilloscope, not 2464b, right?
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You mean Tektronix 2465b analog oscilloscope, not 2464b, right?
No, the 2464B was a special model made for Australia. It has an upside-down CRT.
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Yeah, an 2465B ...
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Your comparison of DSO to Your analog oscilloscope is something more complicated than simple screen plot comparison.
Especjally if we look at plot recorded with limited sampling rate?
When dot mode display is chosen, then points corresponds to data recorded bu s/h - adc combo - hence no artifacts. Overlayed patterns of points forms actual plot, that corresponds to input data.
If vector mode is chosen, then sinc reconstruction cames to play - hence possiblility different intermodulations with higher spectral components. To avoid this, scope bandwith has to be limited. So, if adc speed is reduced, then input bandwith has to follow this reduction either too keep Nyquist theorem.
To make a fair comparison you should record with Your tek some several hundreds of signal periods, then enlarge the plot to see a single period look.
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Some inkling into what hpw is going on about can be found in Topics in his profile.
This thread that it appears he has forgotten was of his own making:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3021x-plus/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3021x-plus/)
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Back to SDS2000X Plus ;)
Regarding Firmware update, any news on it, possible release date?
Im so eager to get it :-)
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The longer it last, the better it gets.... 8)
So let´s be patient, last update was in november 2020, now a few days or weeks more or less.... :)
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New Siglent option bundle promotion:
For all sales areas except NA unfortunately. :(
Expires Sept 30 2021
With new purchases of SDS2000X Plus DSO's:
MSO SPL2016 HW with license and 50 MHz AWG/FG license for just $ 219 !
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-49.html
:grumble grumble:
Don't get me wrong.... I'm very happy to see Europe and APAC AAAS get discounts. Far too often companies tend to have two classes of customers: 1) America 2) the rest of the world.
But sheesh. With a discount that steep I feel like I'd still save money buying from a European reseller and paying for shipping to the USA. The probe kit alone is $369 USD retail.
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New Siglent option bundle promotion:
For all sales areas except NA unfortunately. :(
Expires Sept 30 2021
With new purchases of SDS2000X Plus DSO's:
MSO SPL2016 HW with license and 50 MHz AWG/FG license for just $ 219 !
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-49.html
:grumble grumble:
Don't get me wrong.... I'm very happy to see Europe and APAC AAAS get discounts. Far too often companies tend to have two classes of customers: 1) America 2) the rest of the world.
But sheesh. With a discount that steep I feel like I'd still save money buying from a European reseller and paying for shipping to the USA. The probe kit alone is $369 USD retail.
LOL yes we are very fortunate in some markets where we can still offer the previous free options (except MSO) too !
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LOL yes we are very fortunate in some markets where we can still offer the previous free options (except MSO) too !
Which markets have access to those free options?
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LOL yes we are very fortunate in some markets where we can still offer the previous free options (except MSO) too !
Which markets have access to those free options?
Sorry IDK however if you shop around it is possible you may find someone still holding stock with the factory free options installed.
Some dealers may have stocked up like we did when that promotion was active.
ATM only the MSO/FG promotion seems active in the EU:
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/summer-time-special-bundle-save-up-to-e496-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/summer-time-special-bundle-save-up-to-e496-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/)
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if you shop around it is possible you may find someone still holding stock with the factory free options installed.
Some dealers may have stocked up like we did when that promotion was active.
Thanks for the tip! My local dealer had 1 left :-+
So combined with the current promotion it's looking pretty nice, straight out of the box:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1260700;image)
(that inline image probably doesn't work. update: trick from tautech works)
One question - is the fan supposed to tick? I've read some complaints about noise, but mine ticks very fast, like a clock on speed.
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@blurpy
That ticking noise is probably a wire that's just catching the fan blades or maybe due to damage to the fan. It might be worth trying Dave's trick of peeling the warranty void sticker without damaging it to save voiding the warranty by taking it apart to check the fan to save the hassle of a return which might result in losing all those tasty options you got with this one. The ticking fan could be the reason it was still available (possibly a customer return awaiting closer inspection for a local repair).
One thing you could try is to operate it in various orientations to see whether it makes any difference to this ticking noise to get a better idea of the nature of the problem before trying a self repair. However, if you bought it from an official Siglent agent, it's probably best to report it and have them sort it out. I doubt you'll lose out on the free options, especially if you make a point about keeping those options as per the original terms of your purchase.
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if you shop around it is possible you may find someone still holding stock with the factory free options installed.
Some dealers may have stocked up like we did when that promotion was active.
Thanks for the tip! My local dealer had 1 left :-+
So combined with the current promotion it's looking pretty nice, straight out of the box:
Nice, glad you found one. :-+
(that inline image probably doesn't work, like always)
Hasn't for sometime so just add the thumbnail and do an Edit with [ img ] pic address [ /img ] with the pic address being the URL of your thumbnail.
One question - is the fan supposed to tick? I've read some complaints about noise, but mine ticks very fast, like a clock on speed.
Probably some remaining plastic on part of the fan from injection molding.
Tell your supplier about it and if it drives you nuts try and record the sound for Siglent to supply a new fan.
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The diameter of the fan is 80mm standard, right ?
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The diameter of the fan is 80mm standard, right ?
Yep
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Took delivery of a SDS2k+ a couple of days ago, it too got that ticking noise coming from the fan. It's not something I'm going to pay return shipping for just to get a another unit with the same issue. I'll live with it for a while then I'll replace the fan, like I did on my DS4k.
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Sort of ticking noise here too. It has something to do with brushless controller, i think.
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The diameter of the fan is 80mm standard, right ?
Yep
So, it's perimeter is pi times diameter. As we know, pi is equal to three with something. And this is this something that clicks there.
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That ticking noise is probably a wire that's just catching the fan blades or maybe due to damage to the fan.
One thing you could try is to operate it in various orientations to see whether it makes any difference to this ticking noise to get a better idea of the nature of the problem before trying a self repair.
The first thing I did after turning it on and noticing the ticking was turning it in all directions. It doesn't seem to make any difference. Hard to see if anything is catching the fan blades though.
(that inline image probably doesn't work, like always)
Hasn't for sometime so just add the thumbnail and do an Edit with [ img ] pic address [ /img ] with the pic address being the URL of your thumbnail.
Hey, excellent, that worked! Thanks :-+
Probably some remaining plastic on part of the fan from injection molding.
Tell your supplier about it and if it drives you nuts try and record the sound for Siglent to supply a new fan.
Ok, I've recorded the sound now, and will send it to them so they can evaluate.
I've shared it here if anyone is interested:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ip6ywEboQeQEmwiGfL8fPzKtnTvqpgDQ/view?usp=sharing
Took delivery of a SDS2k+ a couple of days ago, it too got that ticking noise coming from the fan. It's not something I'm going to pay return shipping for just to get a another unit with the same issue. I'll live with it for a while then I'll replace the fan, like I did on my DS4k.
That's somewhat comforting to hear! I fear as well that sending it back will just get me another unit or fan with the same ticking. Maybe the improvement tautech mentioned some time ago where they lowered the fan noise was due to lowering the voltage to the fan, and as a result it makes that ticking sound?
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The diameter of the fan is 80mm standard, right ?
Yep
Isn't it 92mm?
This is the one I have (ADDA AD0912DS-A70GL):
https://no.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ADDA/AD0912DS-A70GL?qs=JlPQwKGeTi8s51BBKT5mcw%3D%3D
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Sort of ticking noise here too. It has something to do with brushless controller, i think.
Mee too! Some kind of ticking (annoying) noise.
... I fear as well that sending it back will just get me another unit or fan with the same ticking. Maybe the improvement tautech mentioned some time ago where they lowered the fan noise was due to lowering the voltage to the fan, and as a result it makes that ticking sound?
If it really has to do with the voltage fo the fan, maybe the next Firmware update will fix this?
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do i have a hearing problem ? i dont hear any bad, or wierd sounds from the fan.
happycustomer++;
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New stock SDS2104X Plus SN# range SDS2PDDD4R1*** are somewhat quieter than earlier units and it seems a slower fan has now been fitted.
do i have a hearing problem ? i dont hear any bad, or wierd sounds from the fan.
Maybe you have the previous generation fan setup? Or maybe you are lucky with your fan :)
If it really has to do with the voltage fo the fan, maybe the next Firmware update will fix this?
Sounds a bit like a hardware mod, so not sure.
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blurpy
All noted.
Have a fresh new stock unit to PD soon so will take note of its fan behavior and bring your and others observations to the attention of Siglent whom have just knocked off for the weekend.
Handling a few units I see minor differences in the SN# coding in each batch we get in so going forward if this is a reoccurring problem we need see if there is commonality in the SN#'s.
Eg. SDS2PDDX5R##** We wouldn't need the last 2 or 3 #'s.
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Handling a few units I see minor differences in the SN# coding in each batch we get in so going forward if this is a reoccurring problem we need see if there is commonality in the SN#'s.
Eg. SDS2PDDX5R##** We wouldn't need the last 2 or 3 #'s.
Thanks for following up tautech :)
My SDS2104X+ is in that SN range you wrote there.
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FWIW: Mine is SDS2PDDX5R15xx, it sounds exactly as in the audio file posted by blurpy.
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When I got this scope I was playing with it to check if everything is OK. AFAIR I was able to "catch" a plot of pulses, that were corresponding to that ticking when probe end was close to the scope's housing.
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blurpy
All noted.
Have a fresh new stock unit to PD soon so will take note of its fan behavior and bring your and others observations to the attention of Siglent whom have just knocked off for the weekend.
Handling a few units I see minor differences in the SN# coding in each batch we get in so going forward if this is a reoccurring problem we need see if there is commonality in the SN#'s.
Eg. SDS2PDDX5R##** We wouldn't need the last 2 or 3 #'s.
Mine is SDS2PDDC5R**** and it had the same ticking noise in the posted audio. I replaced the fan though with a Noctua NF-A9 and it's much better now though!
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My very first post here :-)
I've just purchased a SDS2104x+. The summer promotion finally got me.
The bundled keys for FNG and MSO did not work for some reason. The url did not give a key. I then simply used a python script from git (I think that is the key generator you aure talking about) as the key generator instead. No problem so far.
The fan is not silent, nor is it extremely loud. It resonates with my bench, but I can deal with that.
The SDS2104x+ froze two times while trying out things.
Playing with the scope for two days I came across something I did not expect: math channels. It is hard to understand (for me) why Siglent did it the way it is. Eres is located under math. Ok that is understandable. Averaging is also located there. I can follow that philosophy - you can average more than a scope input. However in -all- scopes that I know averaging would be found under 'aquire'. If you know it, no problem.
BUT I find it really annoying that I have to waste place on the screen to show the original waveform! Looking at the FFT Siglent seems to have noticed that sometimes the source for the FFT is unwanted and you can choose not to show the time-domain signal. WHY is that not possible if doing ERES or averaging? If I come across a signal that makes me kick in averaging, THAT Signal is likely to be irrelevant for me. So, please, can someone point out f I am just too blind and show me how to keep the machine from plotting the sources of ERES or averaging? Thanks.
If there is no way to achieve this, I really hope for a firmware release to deal with that. I watched some videos about this scope. Sometimes I realized complains about the memory managment or such, but I can't remember people pointed this issue out or felt annoyed by the math solution.
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My very first post here :-)
I've just purchased a SDS2104x+. The summer promotion finally got me.
The bundled keys for FNG and MSO did not work for some reason. The url did not give a key. I then simply used a python script from git (I think that is the key generator you aure talking about) as the key generator instead. No problem so far.
The fan is not silent, nor is it extremely loud. It resonates with my bench, but I can deal with that.
The SDS2104x+ froze two times while trying out things.
Playing with the scope for two days I came across something I did not expect: math channels. It is hard to understand (for me) why Siglent did it the way it is. Eres is located under math. Ok that is understandable. Averaging is also located there. I can follow that philosophy - you can average more than a scope input. However in -all- scopes that I know averaging would be found under 'aquire'. If you know it, no problem.
BUT I find it really annoying that I have to waste place on the screen to show the original waveform! Looking at the FFT Siglent seems to have noticed that sometimes the source for the FFT is unwanted and you can choose not to show the time-domain signal. WHY is that not possible if doing ERES or averaging? If I come across a signal that makes me kick in averaging, THAT Signal is likely to be irrelevant for me. So, please, can someone point out f I am just too blind and show me how to keep the machine from plotting the sources of ERES or averaging? Thanks.
If there is no way to achieve this, I really hope for a firmware release to deal with that. I watched some videos about this scope. Sometimes I realized complains about the memory managment or such, but I can't remember people pointed this issue out or felt annoyed by the math solution.
You mean you have CH1 and then create math channell F1 from that one ( ERES or whatever really). And you don't want to have original source channel visible on the screen?
User manual, page 65: (J) HIDE Channel button.
Manuals ARE our friends... :-+
Enjoy your new scope!
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Manuals ARE our friends... indeed! Thank you for solving this. I did study the manual prior to the purchase (of course). No idea why I missed that part.
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ERES and averaging are MATH channels? Does that mean you can't use ERES or averaging on all channels at once?
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Manuals ARE our friends... indeed! Thank you for solving this. I did study the manual prior to the purchase (of course). No idea why I missed that part.
Don't worry. It is a lot of information to be absorbed at once..
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Does that mean you can't use ERES or averaging on all channels at once?
Correct calculated ;)
For performance reasons, the sds2k+ got two mathchannels only(the sds5K too, by the way..), so avg and eres can be used on two channles at once.
If you got the 2-ch version of the scope, it´s enough. 8)
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Well, you do have 10bit acquisition mode. Which is same as a global hires mode on other scopes...
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New Firmware V1.3.9R4 released today :-+ ... changelog not yet updated.. :popcorn:
https://siglentna.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds2000xp
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New Firmware V1.3.9R4 released today :-+ ... changelog not yet updated.. :popcorn:
https://siglentna.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds2000xp
Sept 2nd 2021
1.3.9R4
1. Measurement enhancement:
a) Supported cursors for measurement
b) Supported Track plot
c) Added parameters: Positive Slope and Negative Slope
2. Display:
a) Supported to display axis label
b) Auto hide menu setting increased to 10 seconds
c) Added “Hide” button in the fast menu of channel for quickly hiding trace
3. Save/Recall:
a) Supported network storage
b) Supported to Print only grid area
c) Supported to save FFT result
d) Updated the File Manager
4. Bode
a) The maximum generator amplitude changed from 6Vp-p to 24Vp-p
b) Supported single sweep
5. Horizontal: Time Zero strategy updated – time zero changed from center display to trigger position.
6. Acquisition: Deleted some unnecessary clear operations on the history buffer
7. Updated Russian menu
8. Supported setting Cursors by virtual keypad
9. Fixed several bugs
a) Decode failure occurs on last nibble or byte
b) The “STL?” query issue in AWG function
c) If persistence is enabled, and you change the trigger setting, persistence
will be switched off
d) Decode list can't go higher than item #2
e) Decode format is reset to "binary" when recalling stored settings
f) Sequence capture does not work with serial trigger from digital channel
g) ERES 0.5-bit works for ERES(C1), but not for ERES(F1)
h) The icons for rise and fall time in the Measure Select screen are reversed
i) When switching the attenuator, the message “Zone is too small” appears
j) After shutting-down the scope and rebooting not all settings are restored
k) Bode plot abnormal when Sequence is enabled
l) SENT decode: tolerance not functional
m) SENT decode: only display CRC segment but no calculation on the CRC
checksum
n) SENT decode: The Short Serial data is NOT decoded if only 16 frames
are sent. If a 17th frame follows, the data is decoded
o) SENT decode: Changing the horizontal time/div affects the ability to
decode.
p) Save/recall: Number of digits of time stamp is not enough in the long period
q) Infinite persistence not works after switching between 8-bit and 10-bit
r) Tolerance of UART decode too strict
s) FFT max. scale is unrealistic
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New Firmware V1.3.9R4 released today :-+
https://siglentna.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds2000xp
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I did it:
Screenshots order:
before
during
after
upgrade :-)
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I did it:
Me too. Went well also on the "improved" Version of the Scope ...
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Bode:
b) Supported single sweep
YES :-+
Siglent as ever, bugfixes and enhancedments....Great stuff, can´t await for updating my scope. :)
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I've also updated my 'enhanced' scope to 1.3.9R4
Update with memory stick went without problems.
Only issue I have is that when I select the option screen the scope hangs and can only be restarted by pressing the power button for 5 second.
If I roll back to 1.3.7R5 then the option screen works again.
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Only issue I have is that when I select the option screen the scope hangs and can only be restarted by pressing the power button for 5 second.
Works ok here.
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Only issue I have is that when I select the option screen the scope hangs and can only be restarted by pressing the power button for 5 second.
Mine has the same problem.
If I roll back to 1.3.7R5 then the option screen works again.
Same here.
Note that what it's killing is the UI. The traces continue to be updated.
EDIT: I figured out what the problem is. It's the Manchester decoder option (SDS_2000XP_Manch on the options page, or MANC in SCPI). If you delete that option, the options page will work, and it'll show as having a temporary license for it.
EDIT 2: Actually, it's not any option in particular. The deal is that if you have all non-bandwidth options enabled, it'll hang. If any one of them is disabled or temporary, such that you can select it in the dropdown for installation, it'll work. I also found that if you enable the last non-bandwidth option via SCPI, it'll hang the scope right then and there. Interesting behavior...
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Nice work, SIGLENT!
From next firmware upgrading I expect the sample rate raising from 2 to 5 GSa/s and 12bit mode capability. ;D
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Only issue I have is that when I select the option screen the scope hangs and can only be restarted by pressing the power button for 5 second.
Mine has the same problem.
If I roll back to 1.3.7R5 then the option screen works again.
Same here.
Note that what it's killing is the UI. The traces continue to be updated.
No such issues here with the last unit in stock just upgraded. :-//
Be aware a hard OFF will not save any previous settings and instead reboot to some previous settings so my best advice after FW upgrades is to do a 2nd reboot for the OS to properly sort itself out.
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No such issues here with the last unit in stock just upgraded. :-//
It's because the stock units have temporary licenses for at least some things (I edited my message to describe what I've found).
Be aware a hard OFF will not save any previous settings and instead reboot to some previous settings so my best advice after FW upgrades is to do a 2nd reboot for the OS to properly sort itself out.
That makes no difference here. I did both a security erase and a factory default restore. None of that made any difference. This is a real bug, apparently. Fortunately, it's not the end of the world. As far as I know, Siglent doesn't sell some of the options that are actually available on the scope, so it's not entirely surprising that this bug could find its way into the new firmware.
Just to be clear, the bug is that if you have all of the non-bandwidth options installed, the attempt to access the "options" screen will hang the UI solid. Similarly, installing the last non-bandwidth option via SCPI will hang the scope right then and there.
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I just upgraded my unit, I am pretty sure that I didn't have a couple of the options enabled as I never expected to use them, unfortunately I don't remember which options they were, it was probably MANCH and SENT the were not enabled, but I could be wrong.
Upon upgrading (after its first auto reboot) I went to the options page and all options were enabled and it didn't hang, I rebooted it again in case it is something to do with a subsequent boot up, it was fine.
I noticed there is a password protected "Developer Options" menu on that screen too... I didn't notice that before.
So far for me it appears to be fine, but then I haven't actually tried using the scope since the update.
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I just upgraded my unit, I am pretty sure that I didn't have a couple of the options enabled as I never expected to use them, unfortunately I don't remember which options they were, it was probably MANCH and SENT the were not enabled, but I could be wrong.
Upon upgrading (after its first auto reboot) I went to the options page and all options were enabled and it didn't hang, I rebooted it again in case it is something to do with a subsequent boot up, it was fine.
I noticed there is a password protected "Developer Options" menu on that screen too... I didn't notice that before.
So far for me it appears to be fine, but then I haven't actually tried using the scope since the update.
You're not.
Manch, Sent and MSO are not part of the Oceania free options package.
Developer Options is just a rename of the previous Debug menu.
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No such issues here with the last unit in stock just upgraded. :-//
It's because the stock units have temporary licenses for at least some things (I edited my message to describe what I've found).
Be aware a hard OFF will not save any previous settings and instead reboot to some previous settings so my best advice after FW upgrades is to do a 2nd reboot for the OS to properly sort itself out.
That makes no difference here. I did both a security erase and a factory default restore. None of that made any difference. This is a real bug, apparently. Fortunately, it's not the end of the world.
Reinstalling the FW is worth a try.
As far as I know, Siglent doesn't sell some of the options that are actually available on the scope, so it's not entirely surprising that this bug could find its way into the new firmware.
:-//
The full option list is here:
https://int.siglent.com/products-ware/sds2000xp/#navs
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Reinstalling the FW is worth a try.
I did try that, but to no avail, unfortunately.
The full option list is here:
https://int.siglent.com/products-ware/sds2000xp/#navs
Here's the list of non-bandwidth options from that page (in the order they appear on the page):
- CANFD
- FlexRay
- 1553B
- I2S
- PA
- 16LA
- SENT
- FG
- Manch
Here's the list I have on my scope (in the order they are listed on the "options" screen):
- FG
- 16LA
- FlexRay
- CANFD
- I2S
- 1553B
- PA
- SENT
- Manch
You can see they're a match, save for the ordering.
That doesn't change the nature of the bug, obviously. If I have all of those options permanently enabled, the attempt to get to the "options" screen will lock the UI solid. If I delete the license from one or more of them (so far I've only tried it with Manch and SENT), the "options" screen works fine.
It does this in the face of a security erase and a restore to factory defaults. It does this in the face of multiple upgrades and downgrades. It does it in the face of firmware reinstall. It appears to be a bona-fide bug.
One other thing: if you add the final license to the scope via the UI, it'll hang right then and there. And if you're connected to the scope via SCPI when you do that, the scope will close your SCPI connection immediately and refuse all other connections to it. Additionally, it killed the entire scope under those conditions: the trace didn't update either.
It's a really interesting bug. Should be trivial to reproduce: just add licenses for every non-bandwidth option. The scope will hang when you add the last one, whether it's through the UI or through SCPI.
You have to power cycle the scope and then go in via SCPI and remove one of the licenses for the options page to start working. My scope is absolutely consistent in its behavior here, irrespective of everything else I've tried.
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My scope didn't exhibit this behaviour after the update, it worked fine, differences that may be worth investigating:
I only had 1 channel enabled when I did the firmware update, and afterwards I tried turning them all on and going to the options screen, still worked fine.
Like I mentioned, after doing the firmware update options that I was sure I didn't have installed, were then set to permanent licences, maybe that is something to do with it, does this update install those licences and if you already had them for whatever reason maybe that is causing a conflict there between licence codes that may be hanging around in the background system files?
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My scope didn't exhibit this behaviour after the update, it worked fine, differences that may be worth investigating:
I only had 1 channel enabled when I did the firmware update, and afterwards I tried turning them all on and going to the options screen, still worked fine.
Hmm...I didn't try turning on all the channels first. I can give that a shot. Given the fact that making the last option permanent seems to lock up the scope right then and there, I'm skeptical that the number of channels will make a difference. But I'll be happy to try it anyway.
EDIT: Tried it, made no difference.
Like I mentioned, after doing the firmware update options that I was sure I didn't have installed, were then set to permanent licences, maybe that is something to do with it, does this update install those licences and if you already had them for whatever reason maybe that is causing a conflict there between licence codes that may be hanging around in the background system files?
Well, I can disable all licenses, then attempt the upgrade, then reenable all the licenses. But if there's some sort of permanent background system file that's involved, that might not do anything to it. And what I can tell you is that upgrading with one of the licenses uninstalled and then reinstalling it afterwards yields the same behavior (it hangs it solid right then and there).
EDIT: Tried this too, and got the same result.
So right now, you have no licenses that are not permanent at all? Because having only one is enough to avoid the bug.
If you have absolutely all non-bandwidth licenses installed and don't encounter this bug, then there must be some other weird trigger that causes it.
All I can say is that I'm not surprised I'm encountering it because, you know, that's just how my luck usually goes. :o :)
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I have all options permanent, including bandwidth upgrades, and no hang is experienced on any menus around the options screen.
(I'm not saying there isn't a bug, just that it is fine on mine)
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I have all options permanent, including bandwidth upgrades, and no hang is experienced on any menus around the options screen.
(I'm not saying there isn't a bug, just that it is fine on mine)
Hmm...maybe the issue happens when you don't have all the bandwidth upgrades installed? I've left the bandwidth stuff alone up until now. I'm awfully tempted to try installing that to see if it's what makes the difference.
@TheDefPom, do you have all of the bandwidth upgrades installed on yours?
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When I brought mine, it came with most options enabled (part of promotion) , and I only needed to do bandwidth upgrade as I recall.
Maybe the 'pre-enabled' is the difference, or could be the bandwidth options as you suggested?
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I have all options permanent, including bandwidth upgrades, and no hang is experienced on any menus around the options screen.
(I'm not saying there isn't a bug, just that it is fine on mine)
Hmm...maybe the issue happens when you don't have all the bandwidth upgrades installed? I've left the bandwidth stuff alone up until now. I'm awfully tempted to try installing that to see if it's what makes the difference.
@TheDefPom, do you have all of the bandwidth upgrades installed on yours?
For sure he has as he recently got a pair of 500 MHz probes from us.
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Just upgraded, all options still enabled, no problems.
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Well, I can disable all licenses
How do you do this? I think the problem is right here.
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Well, I can disable all licenses
How do you do this? I think the problem is right here.
There's a command you can use to uninstall each individual license. When you do that, it reverts the feature back to temporary status. Nothing actually removes the feature's availability from the scope entirely -- installing the license again will re-activate the feature.
In any case, I already tried that and it had no effect. To wit, I reverted back to 1.3.7R5, then deleted all the licenses individually (so at this point, all features were temporary), then upgraded, and then re-installed all the licenses. Installing the last license hung the scope, and from that point accessing the "options" page also hung the scope. Deleting the license for one of the features (I used MANC in this case) made the issue disappear, and the "options" page was once again accessible.
But note that I did this only after experiencing the issue in the first place. I've never removed any licenses until after I experienced the issue in the first place. So there's no way that the license removal caused the issue. The issue preceded that.
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LOL, well, I suppose if you're going to enable options on the scope, you may as well go all the way!
I enabled the 500 MHz option on the scope and then reinstalled the license for MANC (the only one that was temporary), and now the options page works just fine.
How incredibly amusing.
Gee, I guess I'm just stuck with a 500 MHz scope if I'm to have a working options page. Whatever is a GAS afflicted person to do??? >:D
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Previously you hadn't put the 500M option?
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Well, I can disable all licenses
How do you do this? I think the problem is right here.
Obviously you won't get the answer from kcbrown, so here goes
Removing a license on the SDS2000X+ can be done by
LIC:DEL MANC
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Previously you hadn't put the 500M option?
Nope. Apparently that makes a big difference. It's why I was careful to specify "non-bandwidth options". I was reluctant to mess with the bandwidth options on my scope, but it's clear that it's involved.
It's apparently possible to revert to the lower bandwidths at will. So for those of you who are interested in reproducing the issue, you might be able to do so simply by reverting to a lower bandwidth. I haven't tried that yet.
In my case, my scope was set up with its original 100 MHz bandwidth at the time of reproduction. I don't know if the issue is specific to that bandwidth or if it'll show itself in the presence of other bandwidth configurations. Obviously it doesn't show itself at all if you've configured the scope for 500 MHz.
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Well, I can disable all licenses
How do you do this? I think the problem is right here.
Obviously you won't get the answer from kcbrown, so here goes
I had been instructed to be careful about revealing such things, which is why I didn't.
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Further testing reveals that the issue occurs when your scope's licensed bandwidth is less than 500 MHz and you have all non-bandwidth option licenses installed.
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I've been curious of what's under the heatsinks we could see in Dave's teardown, and I see some hints of it being the following:
- Display FPGA: Xilinx Zynq-7000 XC7Z020 (7z020clg484)
- MSO FPGA: Xilinx Spartan 6 LX16 XC6SLX16-FTG256
- Acquisition FPGA: 2x Xilinx Spartan 6 LX45 XC6SLX45-FGG676
- ADC: Texas Instruments ADC08D1020 or MXT2001
I have not been able to verify the actual ADC used so far, as it seems to support both. It could be that both are used in different circumstances. Has anyone been able to find a way to identify the actual chip (without taking off the heatsink)?
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I think i've clarified that in this thread. The IDs that we extract from the FW bitstreams tell it very clearly. Except the ADC.
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Yep, I found it in the bitstreams. Couldn't see these details posted anywhere, but my mistake if it's duplicated.
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Yep, I found it in the bitstreams. Couldn't see these details posted anywhere, but my mistake if it's duplicated.
:-+ You did well. Maybe it is my mistake... age catches up quickly in Covid times. I used to parse (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/msg1235275/#msg1235275) those things but I think it stopped at the X-E...
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:-+ You did well. Maybe it is my mistake... age catches up quickly in Covid times. I used to parse (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/msg1235275/#msg1235275) those things but I think it stopped at the X-E...
Thanks :)
Ah, your parser is pretty impressive! I have some work ahead of me ;D
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I've just upgraded a 'fully optioned and fully bandwidthed' one from 1.3.7R5 to 1.3.9R4 without any issues and it seems to work fine at a first glance.
Just wondering how to configure a network share.
Under I/O-Settings / Net Storage there is a directory to be configured.
Suppose it should be an UNC path, but there is no "\" available on the virtual keyboard.
I'd like to access a share like: \\fritz.box\FRITZ.NAS\Dokumente\Share_Siglent
Tried with just the IP-address as directory and credentials, leading into "Mount directory error. ..." Trying again gives this error again and the system then hung completely. Only a power cycle helped.
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Linux uses /
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Linux uses /
Sorry. Windows-blindness. :palm: :-[
thx a lot. Works like a charm now.
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Don´t know what I´ve meausured before, now I got appx 650ps too.
Seems like my results are slightly faster, but also looks like worse overshoot. Did you check how much overshoot you got?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1268590;image)
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Hi,
Did you check how much overshoot you got?
Didn´t know it anymore, can check it tomorrow.
Checked the bodnar also on a lecroy 500Mhz waverunner, it´s overshoots are slightly less.
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Hi,
Did you check how much overshoot you got?
Didn´t know it anymore, can check it tomorrow.
Checked the bodnar also on a lecroy 500Mhz waverunner, it´s overshoots are slightly less.
What does each scope show when you turn off sinc, to show the raw sample points? Also, are both in peak detect or normal mode? If normal, it would be interesting to see if they're closer when peak detect is enabled on both.
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Also, are both in peak detect or normal mode?
Basic fundamentals:
With full ADC sampling rate (without decimation) Peak detect have no effect, of course.
As you can see all these, least as far as I can see, have done with full sampling speed.
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Also, are both in peak detect or normal mode?
Basic fundamentals:
With full ADC sampling rate (without decimation) Peak detect have no effect, of course.
As you can see all these, least as far as I can see, have done with full sampling speed.
Oh. You're right. Good call.
It would be interesting to see the raw points for both, in case there's a difference in the sinc construction method being used.
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The last FW update has about half the size oft the preceding updates.
Thats interesting ?
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The last FW update has about half the size oft the preceding updates.
Thats interesting ?
No problem. All help/language files what have no changes do not need update.
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But that means it's not a cumulative update, but requires a certain minimum version to build upon?
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But that means it's not a cumulative update, but requires a certain minimum version to build upon?
It's not like you can buy empty scope without OS like with PC-s..
If you see problem with someone not upgrading for 10 years, yeah you might need some interim upgrades.
That is not something unusual.
Might be inconvenient in that case, but not a show stopper. It simply needs to be documented.
And most of the people upgrade on regular base anyways.
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What does each scope show when you turn off sinc, to show the raw sample points? Also, are both in peak detect or normal mode? If normal, it would be interesting to see if they're closer when peak detect is enabled on both.
Here are from mine with sinc off. I could not see any difference with peak detect or not. Also checked both AC and DC coupling without any difference.
Fast mode:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1269118;image)
And slow mode:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1269124;image)
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If you see problem with someone not upgrading for 10 years, yeah you might need some interim upgrades.
That is not something unusual.
Might be inconvenient in that case, but not a show stopper. It simply needs to be documented.
Should definitely be documented. I added it in the bug thread.
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What does each scope show when you turn off sinc, to show the raw sample points? Also, are both in peak detect or normal mode? If normal, it would be interesting to see if they're closer when peak detect is enabled on both.
Here are from mine with sinc off. I could not see any difference with peak detect or not. Also checked both AC and DC coupling without any difference.
Fast mode:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1269118;image)
And slow mode:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1269124;image)
Best way to look at fast repetitive signals is by using dot mode. It will , in effect, act as a sort of an ETS mode and show much better signal fidelity.
Try it.
Like RF-loop said, peak detect is not working at all at max sample rate. Which, because of long mem, you will keep to quite long timebases.
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But that means it's not a cumulative update, but requires a certain minimum version to build upon?
It's not like you can buy empty scope without OS like with PC-s..
If you see problem with someone not upgrading for 10 years, yeah you might need some interim upgrades.
That is not something unusual.
Might be inconvenient in that case, but not a show stopper. It simply needs to be documented.
And most of the people upgrade on regular base anyways.
In principle it's OK, but what it saves in download bandwidth is easily outweighed by the inconvenience of having to download multiple versions and applying them in the correct order. If I were Siglent, I'd distribute full firmware updates only.
Having an update mechanism that enforces dependencies on previous firmware versions is pretty much mandatory in that case. Merely documenting that you need to install all previous updates is not enough. It only leads to customer frustration and an increase in support tickets.
Can anyone confirm that it's impossible to install this latest firmware on a scope with an older firmware than the previous version?
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Can anyone confirm that it's impossible to install this latest firmware on a scope with an older firmware than the previous version?
The update instructions say it's compatible from 1.3.5R5. You get the newest app in any case, but the supporting files will be "old", like documentation.
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A bit offtopic but just popped up after i did some play around after successfully updated to the latest FW:
Is there a way to load the waveform data of the Bode plot also? Neither the Webinterface not the EasyScopeX SW downloads correct data. Csv can be saved locally via dialog, but then you have to operate the USB stick all the time.
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Best way to look at fast repetitive signals is by using dot mode. It will , in effect, act as a sort of an ETS mode and show much better signal fidelity.
Try it.
Tried it now :)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1269280;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1269286;image)
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Best way to look at fast repetitive signals is by using dot mode. It will , in effect, act as a sort of an ETS mode and show much better signal fidelity.
Try it.
Tried it now :)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1269286;image)
This is somehow best reconstruction about your signal how ADC see it and best what this instrument can.
Naturally no one know what it is in source output without connected to oscilloscope and also when connected no one know how it change from oscilloscope input port (BNC) and when it travel to ADC input.
As can see this figure shape can also very perfectly find in image where is lines with Sinc Off. When know how to look.
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Does anybody know the maximum power of the 50 Ohm input resistors?
Is there any input protection in place?
I'm thinking of following the performance checks from the HP8015A pulse generator manual and HP recommends a 20db power attenuator.
HP8015A output voltage is max +/- 8V into 50 Ohms.
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Does anybody know the maximum power of the 50 Ohm input resistors?
Is there any input protection in place?
I'm thinking of following the performance checks from the HP8015A pulse generator manual and HP recommends a 20db power attenuator.
HP8015A output voltage is max +/- 8V into 50 Ohms.
There is maximum input voltage specified, as written right next to BNC: < 5VRMS at 50 Ohms
+/-8V squarewave is 8V RMS...
So attenuator is in order..
A 6dB (power, /2 in voltage) attenuator will drop it to 4V RMS an 4V P-P, well into range.
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Just "upgraded" to latest version...
Some nice features (like "full span" on the FFT).
A few gripes...
Any way to reduce the absolutely ridiculous fixed 4 decimal places of "precision" that the trace axis seem to have gained for horizontal and vertical scales in the last release (or maybe the one before that) - I'm particularly looking at the FFT? And why does the FFT information now move out of the corner of the screen...
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Does anybody know the maximum power of the 50 Ohm input resistors?
Is there any input protection in place?
I'm thinking of following the performance checks from the HP8015A pulse generator manual and HP recommends a 20db power attenuator.
HP8015A output voltage is max +/- 8V into 50 Ohms.
There is maximum input voltage specified, as written right next to BNC: < 5VRMS at 50 Ohms
+/-8V squarewave is 8V RMS...
So attenuator is in order..
A 6dB (power, /2 in voltage) attenuator will drop it to 4V RMS an 4V P-P, well into range.
Thx 2N3055! Advantage for those able to read. :-[
Will order some attenuators to fill my TEA beginner's drawers. :-)
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Just make sure to order ones with at least a 1W (preferably 2W) power dissipation rating for this usage case (I checked and the input resistor whether a T or Pi type of 6dB will be dissipating some 425mW with an 8vrms input signal level). :)
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Yes. I've ordered 10W types with 20db and 6db to be ready for whatever might come. :-)
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Yes. I've ordered 10W types with 20db and 6db to be ready for whatever might come. :-)
Once they get in, you need to measure attenuation exactly, so you can define custom probe. They probably won't be 2x or 10x exactly.. maybe 1.94 or 2.04.. but you can enter probe ratio as a decimal number and get pretty close..
Have fun!
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Seems like my results are slightly faster, but also looks like worse overshoot. Did you check how much overshoot you got?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1268590;image)
Checked it "now", see below ( don´t know how to put images in the post).
See also a lecroy Waverunner 9054 (500Mhz, 20GSa/s) handle the bodnar pulse.
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Checked it "now", see below ( don´t know how to put images in the post).
In the posting window most left 2nd row icon places img flags in your post window. Post then edit placing attachment URL (previously copied ;) ) between the img flags. Then Save.
Look at syntax by quoting another post for clues.
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Checked it "now", see below ( don´t know how to put images in the post).
See also a lecroy Waverunner 9054 (500Mhz, 20GSa/s) handle the bodnar pulse.
Waverunner 9054 running at 500MHz will have Gaussian response, and will have faster risetime.
All in all, I would say little SIglent looks quite well compared, using 2GS/s sampling rate..
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This little siglent is a gem, no doubt about it.
Others I know who are working daily with much more expensive scopes are impressed too.
Sure it got some limitations in comparison, but what the sds2k+ got, that works very well.
And I´ve compare it with models beyond 10000 bucks...
I like it a lot.
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Tried it now :)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1269286;image)
Checked it "now", see below
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1270534;image)
I think these are the screenshots where we used the same settings? Did you use dot mode and fast sinc too?
Could the difference in overshoot and rise time be related to calibration, or small differences due to tolerances of components in the front end of the scope?
I see from the spec sheet that came with my Leo Bodnar Pulser that it has an overshoot of 5.8% on their reference scope.
Mostly I'm wondering if what I see is OK for this scope or not, because if I zoom out a bit, it's a really ugly square wave (I'm not used to seeing fast signals though):
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1270906;image)
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Mostly I'm wondering if what I see is OK for this scope or not, because if I zoom out a bit, it's a really ugly square wave (I'm not used to seeing fast signals though):
Since I'm not in a mood for long answer (weird, right?), short answer is, yes that is allright.
These are sub nanosecond (actually tens of picoseconds in Leo's pulser case) events.
Connect a piece of coax between pulser and scope and tell me what you see. Then keep looking a the screen and start twisting cable...
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hello,
I'm a new member on this forum, and i have studied carefully especially SDS2000X Plus articles. This forum is very good and informative, it has helped me in my decision to order one SDS2104X Plus oscilloscope with bundled options package. I got the scope about week ago, I'm impressed of the device. Now I have a lot to learn how to use it efficiently.
After few days I also noticed a faint ticking noise on the scope fan. I opened the torx10 screws on scope's backside near the fan some amount. Believe or not but the faint ticking noise disappeared from my device. In my case the screws were originally very tight, maybe the fan were slightly compressed.
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hello,
I'm a new member on this forum, and i have studied carefully especially SDS2000X Plus articles. This forum is very good and informative, it has helped me in my decision to order one SDS2104X Plus oscilloscope with bundled options package. I got the scope about week ago, I'm impressed of the device. Now I have a lot to learn how to use it efficiently.
After few days I also noticed a faint ticking noise on the scope fan. I opened the torx10 screws on scope's backside near the fan some amount. Believe or not but the faint ticking noise disappeared from my device. In my case the screws were originally very tight, maybe the fan were slightly compressed.
Interesting, it probably changed vibration transfer...
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@blurpy
May change to pixel mode too and on display with colored levels.
Than switch simple CH2 on input opened and than CH2 off and CH3 on :palm: :-DD
Also using 10 MHz on CH1 and switch the roll mode ON :palm:
Rolling as with lost of signals :-DD:
---------------- --------------------------------------------------------------
\ /
---------------- --------------------------------------------------------------
The final question would be on looking on fast rising/falling edges without overshoots:
. the required BW as 100X by Square wave signal
. probes BW
. Linear phase behavior to draw real square waves even on 100x by square wave signal
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After few days I also noticed a faint ticking noise on the scope fan. I opened the torx10 screws on scope's backside near the fan some amount. Believe or not but the faint ticking noise disappeared from my device. In my case the screws were originally very tight, maybe the fan were slightly compressed.
Interesting, it probably changed vibration transfer...
Sorry, I do not know that term.
For the fan I have a plan to change it to another quieter brand, even without ticking I find the noise of fan disturbing. I have worked earlier several times in very noisy environments in factories, maybe that's why I'm kind of sensitive for noise. My hobby corner was very quiet until now, I'll try to keep it like it was.
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hello,
I'm a new member on this forum, and i have studied carefully especially SDS2000X Plus articles. This forum is very good and informative, it has helped me in my decision to order one SDS2104X Plus oscilloscope with bundled options package. I got the scope about week ago, I'm impressed of the device. Now I have a lot to learn how to use it efficiently.
Be thankful you couldn't afford a lecroy Waverunner 9054 or you'd be spending the next 12 months familiarising yourself with its rather fulsome and complex feature set. I'd thought the "20GSa/s" in Martin72's post must have been a typo until I did a search on "lecroy Waverunner 9054" and found LeCroy's specifications list. I spent a good 15 minutes alone just trawling through its impressively long feature set!
Then I spotted this item;
Nominal Power Consumption 285 W / 285 VA
Max. Power Consumption 375 W / 375 VA (with all PC peripherals and active probes connected to 4 channels)
And, to think I used to feel a bit miffed over the 54W my SDS21504X+ was burning up! Strange how all it takes for an attitude adjustment to kick in, is to look at just how much greater an issue this is in kit that's at least an order of magnitude higher in spec. ::)
One thing I noticed about that power requirements spec, was the implied 1.0 PF rating which made me think that the only way to achieve such a rating with most smpsus is to power them directly from a DC source which, strangely isn't a listed option (possibly simply due to it effectively disabling the AC line trigger input option).
After few days I also noticed a faint ticking noise on the scope fan. I opened the torx10 screws on scope's backside near the fan some amount. Believe or not but the faint ticking noise disappeared from my device. In my case the screws were originally very tight, maybe the fan were slightly compressed.
If you're testing a collection of fans taken from scrapped desktop PCs, all it takes to quieten any 'ticky' ones is to gently twist their frames or conversely, to make them 'ticky' when checking a prospective replacement for the possibility of a silent fan turning into a noisy one after being mounted in place a faulty fan, The clearances are so small that it doesn't take much distortion of their frames to turn a perfectly quiet fan into a 'ticky' fan, so I rather think you've found 'the cure' in this case. :)
A lot of this kit is assembled with powered screwdrivers set to a dangerously close to the limit torque setting. Managing to loosen those torx10 screws without the extra stress of this action being the final straw that strips out the insert (or threads in the case of self tappers straight into the plastic) and tightening them back up to a more sane torque level is a good thing to have done regardless, It reduces the chance of such extraction damage years later, possibly even the chance that the overstressed thread inserts or plastic finally give way before you ever get round to undoing those screws.
I can't say I noticed any ticking sounds when I first tested mine just over a year ago (and I did make a point of closely auditioning the fan, mainly listening for the level of wind rush rather than for any out of place ticking noises).
Admittedly, my hearing isn't as good as it used to be just 5 years ago but I can still hear any higher pitched noises such as the 495Hz PWM from an Arduino Nano that's controlling the speed of an 19 volted 12v CPU fan cooler bolted to the baseplate of an LPRO 101 I've been running on my test bench for the past two or three months.
I've just powered the SDS2000X+ back up to check and placing my ear close to the fan provides no hint of any such noise, just the faintest perception of wind rush noise, so I guess I'm one of the lucky ones in this regard. :) Perhaps the torque settings had been spot on when mine was being made and they've since drifted higher with the more recent production batches?
This observation of noisy fans seems to be associated with more recent purchases, so this is a reasonable guess at a likely cause for this detriment. Anyone else who has experienced this particular annoyance could well benefit by following your example, even if it's just to check whether these torx screws have been over tightened and to remedy the situation to save any problems in the future.
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After few days I also noticed a faint ticking noise on the scope fan. I opened the torx10 screws on scope's backside near the fan some amount. Believe or not but the faint ticking noise disappeared from my device. In my case the screws were originally very tight, maybe the fan were slightly compressed.
Interesting, it probably changed vibration transfer...
Sorry, I do not know that term.
For the fan I have a plan to change it to another quieter brand, even without ticking I find the noise of fan disturbing. I have worked earlier several times in very noisy environments in factories, maybe that's why I'm kind of sensitive for noise. My hobby corner was very quiet until now, I'll try to keep it like it was.
Age related hearing loss is both a curse and a blessing. One of the 'blessings' in this case, being that 'noisy fans' become less of an issue in a home lab environment. :-\
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Since I'm not in a mood for long answer (weird, right?), short answer is, yes that is allright.
These are sub nanosecond (actually tens of picoseconds in Leo's pulser case) events.
Connect a piece of coax between pulser and scope and tell me what you see. Then keep looking a the screen and start twisting cable...
Thanks!
I tried connecting it with a 1m coax in the middle. Twisting it, at least without destroying the cable, seemed to make no difference on the screen. The cable made a difference to the measurement in general though:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1271110;image)
Rise time increased by 20ps, and overshoot decreased by about 3%. Actually surprised the cable didn't add more to the rise time.
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@blurpy
I don't think I understand :-\
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For anyone pulling their hair out trying to get the excellent Net Storage feature to work on Windows 10 - if it is instantly failing to mount, and all the details and permissions are correct, it seems you may have to have re-installed SMB1 support on your PC, which Microsoft helpfully keep removing. I had to reboot PC after installing SMB1 client and server to get it to work.
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For anyone pulling their hair out trying to get the excellent Net Storage feature to work on Windows 10 - if it is instantly failing to mount, and all the details and permissions are correct, it seems you may have to have re-installed SMB1 support on your PC, which Microsoft helpfully keep removing. I had to reboot PC after installing SMB1 client and server to get it to work.
Yes, excelent note! Same as when you try to connect older Widows or other embedder devices to win10.
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@blurpy
I don't think I understand :-\
While YOU have also a fast rise & falling 10MHz square wave,
Edge viewing:
Picture 1 using CH1 (with signal) & CH2 (no connected)
Picture 2 using CH1 (with signal) & CH2 (no connected), CH1 looks like only using CH1
Roll viewing:
Picture 1 & 2, as not able to smooth rolling & signal looks like having holes :palm:
Just go figure :-- time for any better ;D
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For anyone pulling their hair out trying to get the excellent Net Storage feature to work on Windows 10 - if it is instantly failing to mount, and all the details and permissions are correct, it seems you may have to have re-installed SMB1 support on your PC, which Microsoft helpfully keep removing. I had to reboot PC after installing SMB1 client and server to get it to work.
So that everyone knows why MS keeps removing SMB1:
STOP USING SMB1! (https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/storage-at-microsoft/stop-using-smb1/ba-p/425858)
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@blurpy
I don't think I understand :-\
While YOU have also a fast rise & falling 10MHz square wave,
Edge viewing:
Picture 1 using CH1 (with signal) & CH2 (no connected)
Picture 2 using CH1 (with signal) & CH2 (no connected), CH1 looks like only using CH1
Roll viewing:
Picture 1 & 2, as not able to smooth rolling & signal looks like having holes :palm:
Just go figure :-- time for any better ;D
You really don't understand?
It is aliasing because of severe undersampling. As it should, it is sampling criteria being violated.
They all should do this, right?
Let's try with Keysight..:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1272232;image)
Whaaat ? Keysight MSOX3000T shows solid brick... Hmm why?
Because they are cheating (or shall I say automatically set) by switching to Peak detect mode behind your back.
Keysight does a lot of those "behind the scene" "adjustments" to all aspects of scope to keep illusion of CRT scope.
Ahh now, what to do?
If you go into Acquire menu on your SDS2000x+, and set Acquisition from Normal to Peak detect, what you see ?? :o
Aahh, that's it, like on a CRT scope, a solid brick of signal.
Is this what you expected to see?
Picoscope also switches to Peak detect when running in Roll mode. But that is well documented, unlike Keysight. They keep it straight.
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You really don't understand?
It is aliasing because of severe undersampling. As it should, it is sampling criteria being violated.
They all should do this, right?
Yes, now... all is about rising & falling edges of a 1GHz square wave...
Using a 10MHz square wave (much lower rise & fall time) do not show the holes on Roll mode..
I expected on Roll mode some smooth wave for moving... the Navigate & play do this ..
-
For anyone pulling their hair out trying to get the excellent Net Storage feature to work on Windows 10 - if it is instantly failing to mount, and all the details and permissions are correct, it seems you may have to have re-installed SMB1 support on your PC, which Microsoft helpfully keep removing. I had to reboot PC after installing SMB1 client and server to get it to work.
That's one of the reasons why I changed several years ago OS from Windows (also called Windoof in Germany) to a linux OS (Ubuntu 20.04.3 LTS). Access from SDS2104X+ to network shares works just flawlessly with NFS. I very much like the new Siglent feature that offers to store data on a network drive rather than just on an USB stick.
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I very much like the new Siglent feature that offers to store data on a network drive rather than just on an USB stick.
Next step will be: the cloud.
-
For anyone pulling their hair out trying to get the excellent Net Storage feature to work on Windows 10 - if it is instantly failing to mount, and all the details and permissions are correct, it seems you may have to have re-installed SMB1 support on your PC, which Microsoft helpfully keep removing. I had to reboot PC after installing SMB1 client and server to get it to work.
That's one of the reasons why I changed several years ago OS from Windows (also called Windoof in Germany) to a linux OS (Ubuntu 20.04.3 LTS). Access from SDS2104X+ to network shares works just flawlessly with NFS. I very much like the new Siglent feature that offers to store data on a network drive rather than just on an USB stick.
It works flawlessly because it is now double insecure. >:D
It still supports old, Windows XP style SMB1, on server and client. It supports higher SMB2 and SMB3 also, but doesn't disable SMB1 like Microsoft did.
I know about issues tv84 mentions. It is not a problem on private, small networks but vulnerability is there.
OTOH, I yet have to see newspaper title "Electrical engineer stole 120 Millions USD from a bank using hacked scope"...
But, hey, you never know ...
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For anyone pulling their hair out trying to get the excellent Net Storage feature to work on Windows 10 - if it is instantly failing to mount, and all the details and permissions are correct, it seems you may have to have re-installed SMB1 support on your PC, which Microsoft helpfully keep removing. I had to reboot PC after installing SMB1 client and server to get it to work.
I already filed a report to Siglent Germany.
If you have access to the instrument's command line:
umount /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/net_storage
mount -t cifs -o vers=3.0,username=foo,password=bar,rw,soft //HostIP/Share /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/net_sharewill do the job correctly and enable SMB3 dialect...
++umgfoin
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After few days I also noticed a faint ticking noise on the scope fan. I opened the torx10 screws on scope's backside near the fan some amount. Believe or not but the faint ticking noise disappeared from my device. In my case the screws were originally very tight, maybe the fan were slightly compressed.
This sounded promising, so I gave it a go. Unfortunately it made no difference on my unit.
I tried first with the power off, but when I couldn't hear any difference I tried adjusting the screws while the fan was running as well, but no dice.
Two screws were very tight though, so they are at least unstuck now.
Did anyone else have success with this trick?
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If you have access to the instrument's command line:
umount /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/net_storage
mount -t cifs -o vers=3.0,username=foo,password=bar,rw,soft //HostIP/Share /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/net_sharewill do the job correctly and enable SMB3 dialect...
++umgfoin
How does one get access to this command line?
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how did you create a digital test pulse with sub nS rise time ?
and at the same time be able to drive scope inputs ?
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how did you create a digital test pulse with sub nS rise time ?
and at the same time be able to drive scope inputs ?
To ask questions and keep them in context to a certain post use the Quote feature. ;)
Many own one of Leo's 10 MHz pulsers:
http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=124&products_id=295 (http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=124&products_id=295)
Rise time shown will of course be dependent on scope model.
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wow nice thanks, so the PIC is the pulse setup and usb interface,
and the little AJK AAA part is the magic pulse driver (linedriver) of some sort, with insane rise time capeabilities,
I see he also uses the rigt type of wide caps to be able to get the power this fast.
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wow nice thanks, so the PIC is the pulse setup and usb interface,
and the little AJK AAA part is the magic pulse driver (linedriver) of some sort, with insane rise time capeabilities,
I see he also uses the rigt type of wide caps to be able to get the power this fast.
Leo's thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/yet-another-fast-edge-pulse-generator/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/yet-another-fast-edge-pulse-generator/)
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thanks, I already found it
I am impressed, that dude know his hi speed
great design.
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I have not ever owned anything with a touch screen, how do people keep it clean ?? I suppose do not eat fried chicken without washing hands first.
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I have not ever owned anything with a touch screen, how do people keep it clean ?? I suppose do not eat fried chicken without washing hands first.
Just wipe with it paper towels.
But really as it's not a glossy glass and even if the light is behind you, you actually don't notice finger marks until there's a lot.
IME if needing to use touch a mouse provides for a better and faster use of the UI.
YMMV
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you can use it, without the need of touching the screen,
just use the dials and buttons, and a mouse in the rare need of input something you cant dial to.
you can also set the pop ups to be auto removed after some time.
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Since my Scope is behind my working area I bought this some month ago, very handy.
Much better than try to reach the scope behind the DUT.
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I just upgraded my 2000X+ and tested some new features, they are all great!
BUT, yes there always a "but", Could anyone school me what is so called "Track plot"?
I think I found this item under the measurement menu, as the pics below, but it always says "NULL". Tried everything under the measurement menu, still can't make it available.
[attachimg=1]
What is this? How to use it properly?
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I just upgraded my 2000X+ and tested some new features, they are all great!
BUT, yes there always a "but", Could anyone school me what is so called "Track plot"?
I think I found this item under the measurement menu, as the pics below, but it always says "NULL". Tried everything under the measurement menu, still can't make it available.
(Attachment Link)
What is this? How to use it properly?
Track plot is used to show (as a graph plot) how certain measurement changes in time.
You need to enable some measurement and then you select that measurement for source.
Example would be if you take, say, 1Mhz FM modulated signal with 1kHz sinewave, with modulation deviation of, say, 50kHz.
Put scope at 200us/div and all you would see would be a bit wobbly fat line.
Enable frequency measurement, and then select frequency as TREND source... It should show modulation signal..
You can use same for PWM, where you enable Duty+ measurement and enable trend on that one. It should show PWM modulation nicely..
There is something to have in mind: Some measurements are performed one every signal cycle in acquired buffer. If you have 1000 periods of signal in a capture, it will make that measurement 1000 times. Some measurement are preformed on buffer as a whole. So for one single capture you only get one measurement.
Good example is "RMS" (whole interval you captured yields one result) and "cycle RMS" (that will give you back many results in one captured buffer).
You can guess which one can be enabled for Trend and which ones cannot? ^-^
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Out of curiosity, I tested the pulse response of the scope with my Leo-device.
All channels each after the other, no surprises, as expected. See the pictures.
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There is something to have in mind: Some measurements are performed one every signal cycle in acquired buffer. If you have 1000 periods of signal in a capture, it will make that measurement 1000 times. Some measurement are preformed on buffer as a whole. So for one single capture you only get one measurement.
Good example is "RMS" (whole interval you captured yields one result) and "cycle RMS" (that will give you back many results in one captured buffer).
You can guess which one can be enabled for Trend and which ones cannot? ^-^
Thank you 2N3055!! It works exactly as you say! I get a clear view of the modulation signal, pics shows a FM Triangle wave. (Pic 1)
As you mentioned, ALL "cycle XXX" measurements can run the "Track plot". But again I found another problem, none of the Vertical measurements can show any outputs on "Track plot" window!! Not only can’t display an AM modulated signal, it can’t even output a plain line with a simple waveform input.
pic2 shows a 1.4V RMS sinewave, Manually set to scale, should expect a plain line on 1.4V label, but there are nothing. Auto set is unusable, seems it can't get any data from measurements.
:-// :-// :-// A bug or something?
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There is something to have in mind: Some measurements are performed one every signal cycle in acquired buffer. If you have 1000 periods of signal in a capture, it will make that measurement 1000 times. Some measurement are preformed on buffer as a whole. So for one single capture you only get one measurement.
Good example is "RMS" (whole interval you captured yields one result) and "cycle RMS" (that will give you back many results in one captured buffer).
You can guess which one can be enabled for Trend and which ones cannot? ^-^
Thank you 2N3055!! It works exactly as you say! I get a clear view of the modulation signal, pics shows a FM Triangle wave. (Pic 1)
As you mentioned, ALL "cycle XXX" measurements can run the "Track plot". But again I found another problem, none of the Vertical measurements can show any outputs on "Track plot" window!! Not only can’t display an AM modulated signal, it can’t even output a plain line with a simple waveform input.
pic2 shows a 1.4V RMS sinewave, Manually set to scale, should expect a plain line on 1.4V label, but there are nothing. Auto set is unusable, seems it can't get any data from measurements.
:-// :-// :-// A bug or something?
I don't know, I don't have sds2000X+ to try it out...
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There is something to have in mind: Some measurements are performed one every signal cycle in acquired buffer. If you have 1000 periods of signal in a capture, it will make that measurement 1000 times. Some measurement are preformed on buffer as a whole. So for one single capture you only get one measurement.
Good example is "RMS" (whole interval you captured yields one result) and "cycle RMS" (that will give you back many results in one captured buffer).
You can guess which one can be enabled for Trend and which ones cannot? ^-^
Thank you 2N3055!! It works exactly as you say! I get a clear view of the modulation signal, pics shows a FM Triangle wave. (Pic 1)
As you mentioned, ALL "cycle XXX" measurements can run the "Track plot". But again I found another problem, none of the Vertical measurements can show any outputs on "Track plot" window!! Not only can’t display an AM modulated signal, it can’t even output a plain line with a simple waveform input.
pic2 shows a 1.4V RMS sinewave, Manually set to scale, should expect a plain line on 1.4V label, but there are nothing. Auto set is unusable, seems it can't get any data from measurements.
:-// :-// :-// A bug or something?
I don't know, I don't have sds2000X+ to try it out...
It must be getting late or you're dead tired. :P
Pretty difficult to calculate trends with so few samples on the display. ;)
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Since my Scope is behind my working area I bought this some month ago, very handy.
Much better than try to reach the scope behind the DUT.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1275112)
Yes but if you click on any alphanumeric input box a virtual keyboard appears which is pretty quick to use with a mouse.
Clicking on boxes is not obvious at first however it works very well and negates the need for a keyboard mostly unless you're working with long filenames and such.
Edit to add image.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1275877)
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There is something to have in mind: Some measurements are performed one every signal cycle in acquired buffer. If you have 1000 periods of signal in a capture, it will make that measurement 1000 times. Some measurement are preformed on buffer as a whole. So for one single capture you only get one measurement.
Good example is "RMS" (whole interval you captured yields one result) and "cycle RMS" (that will give you back many results in one captured buffer).
You can guess which one can be enabled for Trend and which ones cannot? ^-^
Thank you 2N3055!! It works exactly as you say! I get a clear view of the modulation signal, pics shows a FM Triangle wave. (Pic 1)
As you mentioned, ALL "cycle XXX" measurements can run the "Track plot". But again I found another problem, none of the Vertical measurements can show any outputs on "Track plot" window!! Not only can’t display an AM modulated signal, it can’t even output a plain line with a simple waveform input.
pic2 shows a 1.4V RMS sinewave, Manually set to scale, should expect a plain line on 1.4V label, but there are nothing. Auto set is unusable, seems it can't get any data from measurements.
:-// :-// :-// A bug or something?
I don't know, I don't have sds2000X+ to try it out...
It must be getting late or you're dead tired. :P
Pretty difficult to calculate trends with so few samples on the display. ;)
Well, both... And correct.
It should be tried with same 1 MHz carrier and same 1 kHz modulation...Just AM..
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Hey, I'm gonna quickly budge in here for a moment.
I'm also interested in buying a Siglent SDS2000X+ scope as an upgrade from my Rigol DS1052E, and I was hoping for some suggestions. I've done some reading on the forum and google, and there seems to be a lot of info on these models, some of it contradicting. I was looking at the 4 channel scopes. The SDS2354X+ seems a bit expensive, but I was wondering, if there is any benefit of buying the SDS2204X+ over SDS2104X+ (price difference about 850 EUR)? Both seem to come with 200 MHz probes, and apparently they can be unlocked to higher frequencies. I've read somewhere they can both be unlocked to 500 MHz (in which case, what's the point of buying the more expensive model), but in another thread I read that the SDS2104X+ can only be upgraded to 200 MHz, and the SDS2204X can only be upgraded to 350 MHz.
I have a few more weeks to do the purchase to also get the logic analyzer probes cheaper.
Thanks.
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https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/summer-time-special-bundle-save-up-to-e496-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/summer-time-special-bundle-save-up-to-e496-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/)
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Oh-oh.... ;D
One of my "forum-colleagues" bought the logic thing at full price, a few weeks ago...
I've read somewhere they can both be unlocked to 500 MHz (in which case, what's the point of buying the more expensive model), but in another thread I read that the SDS2104X+ can only be upgraded to 200 MHz, and the SDS2204X can only be upgraded to 350 MHz.
I´ve got the SDS2104X+, like imho 99% of all SDS2K+ buyers, and it´s unlocked to 500Mhz without any problem.
Like 99% of all others... 8)
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https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/summer-time-special-bundle-save-up-to-e496-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/summer-time-special-bundle-save-up-to-e496-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/)
The promotion is not valid in the North America district :--
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https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/summer-time-special-bundle-save-up-to-e496-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/summer-time-special-bundle-save-up-to-e496-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/)
The promotion is not valid in the North America district :--
Well, yeah, of course not. Because nobody in North America has Euros! :D
I'll be here all week. Try the veal.
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https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/summer-time-special-bundle-save-up-to-e496-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/summer-time-special-bundle-save-up-to-e496-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/)
The promotion is not valid in the North America district :--
However it is here in NZ also along with the previous free options promotion. ;D
Waiting for more to arrive..........
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Yes, I found out that several webstores are offering the 199 EUR promotion until 30 September.
I´ve got the SDS2104X+, like imho 99% of all SDS2K+ buyers, and it´s unlocked to 500Mhz without any problem.
So, is there any benefit at all in buying SDS2204X+ over SDS2104X+?
Does the 2204 have any hardware upgrades to excuse the 850 eur price difference?
EDIT: This is a huge thread, but several posts say it's the same hardware.
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Since my Scope is behind my working area I bought this some month ago, very handy.
Much better than try to reach the scope behind the DUT.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1275112)
Yes but if you click on any alphanumeric input box a virtual keyboard appears which is pretty quick to use with a mouse.
Clicking on boxes is not obvious at first however it works very well and negates the need for a keyboard mostly unless you're working with long filenames and such.
Edit to add image.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1275877)
Sure, that‘s right. Most of all time I only use the mouse. I have no space for a full size keyboard but sometimes the num keypad is helpful. No big deal with this price.
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It must be getting late or you're dead tired. :P
Pretty difficult to calculate trends with so few samples on the display. ;)
Nope, it just doesn't work :palm: Try it, then you'll get what I'm saying.
Or maybe this problem is only on my machine, then it's not a bug :popcorn:
some thoughts on this:
As for Period measurement, it do every cycle with one capture, when a lot of cycles show in one display, it's much faster than "cycle XXX", which are just measurements of the first cycle of one capture. Those "cycle XXX" does not rely on much waves in one capture, it only getting faster with faster sampling, and the best situation is put just one or two cycle on the display(no wasting time to capture the rest waves), then the "cycle XXX" is just as fast as Freq.
And the problem is not about acquisition speed or sample quantity, nor the waveform frequency. For comparison, ALL Period measurement will immediately show an outputs on "Track plot". It's just some kind of faster trend chart, but not in roll mode, also on trigger on it. A plain sinewave Means there is no time domain changes here, so a plain line output is expected, just as it do on Freq or Duty measurements.
Anyone can try this on his/her machine and feedback the result, so We can figure out if this is a bug :-//
Since the 2000X+ can't do a Spectrogram display, this "Track plot" is very usefull to give us some insight on waveform changes in the time domain. :-+ :-+ :-+
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It must be getting late or you're dead tired. :P
Pretty difficult to calculate trends with so few samples on the display. ;)
Well, both... And correct.
It should be tried with same 1 MHz carrier and same 1 kHz modulation...Just AM..
I hope so..... but it's not :-// If this is a bug... hope siglent will fix it next firmware.
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@Bad_Driver
Thank you very much! I was searching BangGood's offerings within minutes of reading yesterday's post to check out availability and pricing. :)
They only had the keypad without mouse option for around the ten quid mark so I checked out AliExpress who had the complete keypad and mouse version for slightly less (after the 20%VAT had been added). Ebay only had sellers asking 53 quid :wtf: and Amazon as usual, had nothing or at best what they do have is very often far from being the "Right Price".
I was so impressed by AliEpress's price matching their higher spec package against the lower specced BangGood one, I decided to take the plunge and order it then and there, after the usual faff of registering my soul with yet another devilish e-tailer (AliExpress).
That's a yet more compact solution than the compact HYSJ V700 61 key keyboard I'd already purchased the month before for twenty quid (I already owned a wireless optical mouse suited to this task). Of course, in hindsight (thanks to tautech's observation that a mouse alone will serve quite nicely in 99% of cases), I suppose I could have saved myself the 30 quid I've invested thus far. :-//
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There is something to have in mind: Some measurements are performed one every signal cycle in acquired buffer. If you have 1000 periods of signal in a capture, it will make that measurement 1000 times. Some measurement are preformed on buffer as a whole. So for one single capture you only get one measurement.
Good example is "RMS" (whole interval you captured yields one result) and "cycle RMS" (that will give you back many results in one captured buffer).
You can guess which one can be enabled for Trend and which ones cannot? ^-^
Thank you 2N3055!! It works exactly as you say! I get a clear view of the modulation signal, pics shows a FM Triangle wave. (Pic 1)
As you mentioned, ALL "cycle XXX" measurements can run the "Track plot". But again I found another problem, none of the Vertical measurements can show any outputs on "Track plot" window!! Not only can’t display an AM modulated signal, it can’t even output a plain line with a simple waveform input.
pic2 shows a 1.4V RMS sinewave, Manually set to scale, should expect a plain line on 1.4V label, but there are nothing. Auto set is unusable, seems it can't get any data from measurements.
:-// :-// :-// A bug or something?
Reproduce your settings, same here...(Pic1)
But, have a look at pic2, Trend setting from Null to cycle rms (the button trend when you choose measure tools).
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The Trend and Trace features are very interesting indeed, thanks to 2N3055 and Tankj :-+
Edit: Decided to use the SDG2042X AWG to input some complex waveforms. Set the AWG to 10MHz, FM modulation with 400KHz deviation and 20KHz modulation rate, and used the Trace mode. Went thru all the various complex waveforms stored in the AWG, and the scope properly displayed the waveforms that are now modulating the frequency and being displayed by frequency discrimination!!!
Best,
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Reproduce your settings, same here...(Pic1)
But, have a look at pic2, Trend setting from Null to cycle rms (the button trend when you choose measure tools).
Hi Martin, thank you for that test, your pic1 has same result as mine, so it's not due to my machine.
Yes, the Trend chart is always works. However it can't do things that Track plot does. Trend is too slow that stick on 1sample/s, can only show Long-term Trend.
Track plot should show a 20kHz signal moduatied to MHz carrier wave.
Just did a comparison, 10MHz carrier, 4MHz deviation, 20kHz FM modulated square wave. Track plot shows the 20kHz square sharp very well (My old signal generator only outputs modulation 20khz max).
Now still can't make it work to show amplitude changes.
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Maybe siglent thinks 2000X+ is TOOMUCH powerful, they have to limit its capabilities >:D
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Here's a few complex waveforms we collected using a 10MHz FM modulated signal. The AWG was set to 10MHz with FM modulation and various modulation waveforms. The scope channel 2 shows the modulation waveform type and you can see how the scope demodulates the FM waveform and displays the modulation.
The Chirp Modulation waveform is interesting in that the "Carrier" is being FM modulated by a Chirp which in itself is a Linear FM modulated signal, or quadratic phase.....so sinusoid FM modulated by quadratic phase. The Radar is another, here the Carrier is being frequency stepped then returned to center frequency, then frequency stepped higher and returned, and then higher again and again and the cycle repeats. Also note the FM Sinc function.
Anyway, this looks to be quite a useful feature for those interested in signal processing or communications, or maybe just fooling around ;D
Best,
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I'm struggling with the FFT on this scope. It seems to display the fundamental at 4 times the frequency.
This is using the internal AWG with a sine at 1 kHz, 1 Vrms:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1281208;image)
Why does it show 4 kHz in the FFT? The frequency counter gets it right.
If I change it to 2 kHz in the AWG it shows as 8 kHz in the FFT.
This is the same signal as the first image, but connected to my SDS1204X-E instead:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1281214;image)
Looks correct there.
I have tried turning the scope off and disconnecting mains, as well as resetting to default. Always the same.
Is there an explanation for this, or is it a bug in the FFT?
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I'm struggling with the FFT on this scope. It seems to display the fundamental at 4 times the frequency.
.
.
.
Is there an explanation for this, or is it a bug in the FFT?
I have the same issue. It's quite clearly a bug.
Seriously, Siglent? You don't have this thing called, you know, regression testing? :palm:
The amount of time it took them to release this last update makes it clear that Siglent did try to get things right, so this is rather a surprise.
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I also noticed this bug. On the previous firmware everything was ok.
Siglent, this needs to be fixed urgently and the update should be released as soon as possible.
One of the main advantages of SDS2000+ - FFT, now works poorly :(
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Hi,
Could reproduce it too.(Blurpy´s settings (2Mp FFT)
Additional, when you change the memdepth to maximum, peaks are changing to higher frequencies.
Plus some annoying thing, but I´ll report it in the bug thread.
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The FFT bug is observed only with a memory depth of 20 or 200 mpts. With less memory depth, everything is displayed correctly.
If you know this "nice feature", the FFT can be used until the manufacturer fixes the bug (I guess it won't be soon, in the next FW in a year :).
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Thanks to everyone who tested to confirm the bug, and for reporting it in the bug thread!
I am a bit concerned with how testing is conducted at Siglent. They broke wifi completely in the latest firmware for the SDS1004X-E, and they broke FFT for the SDS2000X. Both are primary, advertised features, and these bugs were easy to detect.
I see many on this forum commenting that they don't trust the readings from the cheaper brands, and with Siglent being a challenger, they have everything to gain from improving their regression tests. The big bang firmware updates they have been doing lately is probably part of the reason for these regressions. It's much easier to test smaller updates with few changes than one update that changes things everywhere.
The FFT bug is observed only with a memory depth of 20 or 200 mpts. With less memory depth, everything is displayed correctly.
If you know this "nice feature", the FFT can be used until the manufacturer fixes the bug (I guess it won't be soon, in the next FW in a year :).
Thanks, the workaround works! 2M looks fine, and 200M looks even worse than my initial tests.
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Wasn't one of the new features calculating the FFT on the complete sample buffer? Because with the previous firmware the maximum length for the FFT was 2 Msmps.
So they only botched a new feature, not skimped on regression testing :)
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Wasn't one of the new features calculating the FFT on the complete sample buffer? Because with the previous firmware the maximum length for the FFT was 2 Msmps.
So they only botched a new feature, not skimped on regression testing :)
Seeing as I found the issue using the default settings on the scope, a regression test should have revealed that the new feature broke a normal use case :)
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Wasn't one of the new features calculating the FFT on the complete sample buffer? Because with the previous firmware the maximum length for the FFT was 2 Msmps.
So they only botched a new feature, not skimped on regression testing :)
Capture length (sample buffer length) and FFT length are two different things. FFT have max 2M sample points. Capture length need be of course least equal or more than current FFT length. If Acq. length is 200M then FFT use only this (max) 2M slice from whole capture.
But yes it looks like some mistake with tests before launch. There is lot of combinations...
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Wasn't one of the new features calculating the FFT on the complete sample buffer? Because with the previous firmware the maximum length for the FFT was 2 Msmps.
So they only botched a new feature, not skimped on regression testing :)
If they provided 200 Msamples FFT they would be pretty unique in this part of universe for scopes of this class...
You have to go to pretty advanced scope to get to that order of magnitude FFT sizes..
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Why? It's not more complex calculating an FFT on 200 Msmps than on 2. It just takes longer. It's mainly a question whether it is practical or not.
Well, yes, it is also a question of sampling clock stability if it makes sense or not.
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Wasn't one of the new features calculating the FFT on the complete sample buffer? Because with the previous firmware the maximum length for the FFT was 2 Msmps.
And still it´s 2Mpoints - The only mentioned FFT-feature in the new firmware:
. Save/Recall:
a) Supported network storage
b) Supported to Print only grid area
c) Supported to save FFT result
d) Updated the File Manage
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Why? It's not more complex calculating an FFT on 200 Msmps than on 2. It just takes longer. It's mainly a question whether it is practical or not.
Well, yes, it is also a question of sampling clock stability if it makes sense or not.
Clock stability would be fine. But it is not practical and it is not something that would be used except in fringe cases.
2Mpoints FFT is still better than anything that costs less than 20000 USD new.
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If they provided 200 Msamples FFT they would be pretty unique in this part of universe for scopes of this class...
You have to go to pretty advanced scope to get to that order of magnitude FFT sizes..
Yes, but all you would hear is the whining about the update rate! :)
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(I guess it won't be soon, in the next FW in a year :).
you are scaring me... 8)
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Just statistics. We have been waiting for the latest firmware for almost a year.
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Promotion bundle is extended untill end of 2021 :-DD
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Just statistics. We have been waiting for the latest firmware for almost a year.
Ahem. A projection based on a sample size of n = 2 ? Okay...
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Just statistics. We have been waiting for the latest firmware for almost a year.
Ahem. A projection based on a sample size of n = 2 ? Okay...
Well, it allows for a straight line... ::) Better than n=1. :-DD
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:rant:
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-52.html
https://siglentna.com/news-article/save-up-to-538-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/
The $219 Probe/MSO/Function generator deal is now available in North America.... about 10 days after it got delivered from TEquipment. |O
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The $219 Probe/MSO/Function generator deal is now available in North America.... about 10 days after it got delivered from TEquipment. |O
Sorry to hear that, but I think I know what I'm getting for Christmas!
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The $219 Probe/MSO/Function generator deal is now available in North America.... about 10 days after it got delivered from TEquipment. |O
Sorry to hear that, but I think I know what I'm getting for Christmas!
Yeah but:
For a limited time, all new SDS2000X Plus purchases can get an option bundle for only $219.
Edit
OP updated.
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I saw, and was intrigued by the "Full Span" button. I don't know what it does, but it may be interesting to see after they fix FFT itself. FFT on SDS2000XP_1.3.9R4 just doesn't work. It worked a charm on SDS2000XP_1.3.7R5, but just doesn't work for me after the firmware burn.
I am Soooooooo happy to have the keypad (bluetooth dongle) work for cursors that I won't be going back to SDS2000XP_1.3.7R5, but I will be keeping the 1204X-P a while longer because it powers up way faster than I can backlevel the SDS2504X-P to the old version.
Pictures, if anyone cares
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I saw, and was intrigued by the "Full Span" button. I don't know what it does, but it may be interesting to see after they fix FFT itself. FFT on SDS2000XP_1.3.9R4 just doesn't work. It worked a charm on SDS2000XP_1.3.7R5, but just doesn't work for me after the firmware burn.
I am Soooooooo happy to have the keypad (bluetooth dongle) work for cursors that I won't be going back to SDS2000XP_1.3.7R5, but I will be keeping the 1204X-P a while longer because it powers up way faster than I can backlevel the SDS2504X-P to the old version.
Pictures, if anyone cares
Full span should show full frequency span on X axis at current sampling frequency, and with current bin width. That means 0 to 1/2 of sampling frequency.
That is full FFT plot for current sampling.
With FFT, if you set it to show 9MHz to 10 MHz while sampling at 200 MS/s, scope calculates FFT from 0 to 100 MHz, and shows you only 9-10 MHz part. It won't sweep only from 9 -10 MHz. That is how FFT works.
Sometimes you want to see everything you can. Full span.
One use would be looking for EMC problems, where you want to see what is there.
And sometimes you do peek to center, because you connected 10 Mhz oscillator and want to see that peak...
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I wonder where the other pictures went? Here they are. Showing the FFT working (on the old firmware) and not showing it failing (on the new firmware) did not get the replies I wanted. Go figure<g>!
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Like I said, intriguing! I'll definitely play with this after I get FFT to work again. Thanks for the tip! BTW, just to be sure the FFT issue wasn't just low freq stuff, I put out a 10 MHz sin wave, with a 1 KHz sin AM Modulation at 100%, and FFT'd 9950-10050 KHz. I could not get the (looks really nice on the SDS1204X-E) sidebands to look at all right. Pics on request, but I found it interesting that I picked 10 MHz and so did you!
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The choice of 10MHz isn't so surprising. After all it is almost everyone's favourite frequency. :-DD
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I just heard from Siglent. Jason Chonko says "Hi Dan, | Confirmed issues. | I will send this to Engineering ASAP. | Sorry. | J", so, if you like FFT, hold off on the 3.9R4.
I still REALLY like the keypad setting cursors!
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Two of the probes I got with the scope has this effect:
(https://i.ibb.co/mHnF9B4/VID-20211014-175524157.gif)
I find it really annoying that it retracts so slow. The speed changes with the direction of the hook tip. Is it common for the probes to be like this?
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Two of the probes I got with the scope has this effect:
...gif
I find it really annoying that it retracts so slow. The speed changes with the direction of the hook tip. Is it common for the probes to be like this?
No.
Needs a good clean probably.
The grabber hats do come apart which makes sorting them out easier.
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No.
Needs a good clean probably.
The grabber hats do come apart which makes sorting them out easier.
Ok, interesting that new probes need cleaning. I'll ask my distributor if I should attempt taking them apart or what to do.
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No.
Needs a good clean probably.
The grabber hats do come apart which makes sorting them out easier.
Ok, interesting that new probes need cleaning. I'll ask my distributor if I should attempt taking them apart or what to do.
They must be binding on the sleeve behind the Gnd ring behind the tip.
Can you see any bulging behind the tip that might cause this problem ?
Try seating this plastic sleeve further onto the probe just in case it hasn't been assembled properly at the factory Siglent get these from.
The grabber hats should operate without the restriction of free movement your gif displays.
If not a simple fix claim a warranty replacement.
Oh and BTW check swapping grabber hats around between all your probes doesn't produce different results....just thinking you may have 2 different production lots with slight physical differences for the grabber hats to bind like in your gif.
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They must be binding on the sleeve behind the Gnd ring behind the tip.
Can you see any bulging behind the tip that might cause this problem ?
I can't see anything suspicious.
Try seating this plastic sleeve further onto the probe just in case it hasn't been assembled properly at the factory Siglent get these from.
I think you are talking about a sleeve that don't exist anymore on the new probes? On the PP215 probes for my SDS1204X-E there is a moveable plastic sleeve that covers the ground and slides into the probe hat. The new ones have a different sleeve that I can't adjust:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1299229;image)
The new probe at the top, and the old probe at the bottom.
I don't see the slow retraction effect on my old probes btw, but I was thinking perhaps this was related to the new design.
The grabber hats should operate without the restriction of free movement your gif displays.
If not a simple fix claim a warranty replacement.
Oh and BTW check swapping grabber hats around between all your probes doesn't produce different results....just thinking you may have 2 different production lots with slight physical differences for the grabber hats to bind like in your gif.
Good idea, I did a mix and match of all the probes and hats:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1299235;image)
I did find a combination that works pretty ok for all the probes at the same time, luckily. I'll try like this and see how it works out.
Seems the probes and the probe hats weren't matched were well initially. That must be a missing quality assurance step during assembly of the probes, as it would be noticed right away by testing the mechanics of the probe once. Maybe it's usually not necessary to match them as closely, and it's a production issue with some parts only. I think a test step should be a must in any case.
Thanks for the help tautech!
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Thanks very much blurpy ! :-+
I'll report this as a QC issue to Siglent so they can take up with their probe supplier.
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Thanks very much blurpy ! :-+
I'll report this as a QC issue to Siglent so they can take up with their probe supplier.
Excellent :)
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Thanks very much blurpy ! :-+
I'll report this as a QC issue to Siglent so they can take up with their probe supplier.
Excellent :)
I have a X Plus to PD in the next day or so before it goes to a NZ Uni so for sure I'll be checking grabber hats for interchangeability and adding those findings to my report.
I had noticed the tiny oo on new probes but not spotted the change in front end construction so thanks also for documenting that. :-+
Weekend here now and at the factory so will be a few days before we get anything back.
Thanks so much for building that chart and your work on this. :clap:
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I went through so many probes when I first got my SDS1204X-E. It was silly. Siglent sent me several, Amazon sent me several. Most worked for a few weeks. Then I remembered those multimeter leads I'd bought back in the 1990's. $70! at Tommy Ack's Radio Supply here in Aatlanta (RIP). That was more that the Rat-Shack meter I had plugged them into. They still work fine, grabbers and all. The "fine print" said "Probe Master". So, I got Probe Master 'scope probes. It was a bitch paying 60% of the cost of the 'scope for probes, but it's been over a year and not a hiccough!.
Of course, with my new SDS2504XP, the probes are only 20% of the cost of the 'scope! The Probe Master probes went on the new 'scope on day one, and I still haven't opened the envelopes of Siglent probes that came with the 'scope.
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I went through so many probes when I first got my SDS1204X-E. It was silly. Siglent sent me several, Amazon sent me several. Most worked for a few weeks. Then I remembered those multimeter leads I'd bought back in the 1990's. $70! at Tommy Ack's Radio Supply here in Aatlanta (RIP). That was more that the Rat-Shack meter I had plugged them into. They still work fine, grabbers and all. The "fine print" said "Probe Master". So, I got Probe Master 'scope probes. It was a bitch paying 60% of the cost of the 'scope for probes, but it's been over a year and not a hiccough!.
Of course, with my new SDS2504XP, the probes are only 20% of the cost of the 'scope! The Probe Master probes went on the new 'scope on day one, and I still haven't opened the envelopes of Siglent probes that came with the 'scope.
Certainly probes are an area where Siglent needs to sharpen up. :horse:
If we look at the NA listing a couple of reasonably priced alternatives have recently been discontinued :-//
https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/probes/passive-probes/
Those remaining are NOT good value for money especially considering we can get 350 MHz 10x sensing probes in small volumes for just $40. Might be very interesting to get quotes for 10k probes from our supplier. >:D
I sense some very interesting emails developing over the next few days...... :popcorn:
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Of course, with my new SDS2504XP, the probes are only 20% of the cost of the 'scope! The Probe Master probes went on the new 'scope on day one, and I still haven't opened the envelopes of Siglent probes that came with the 'scope.
Probe Master probes are awesome. I bought one of their 3 probe kits...and unfortunately GAS forced me to buy another set, and some DMM probes, accessories, etc... It's rough sometimes. 🤣
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If you look at them as a replacement for P6139, then they're a good deal.
https://probemaster.com/5900-series-500-mhz-oscilloscope-probe-10x/ (https://probemaster.com/5900-series-500-mhz-oscilloscope-probe-10x/)
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As posted in the Bugs thread............
New firmware for SDS2000X Plus models
Version V1.3.9R6
18 MB
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Oscilloscope/SDS2000X%20Plus_V1.3.9R6_EN.zip
Release notes
Fixed several bugs
When selecting the option screen the scope hangs
Wrong FFT frequency when memory depth > 10 Mpts
Incorrect network storage path leads the scope to hang
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As posted in the Bugs thread............
New firmware for SDS2000X Plus models
Version V1.3.9R6
18 MB
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Oscilloscope/SDS2000X%20Plus_V1.3.9R6_EN.zip
Release notes
Fixed several bugs
When selecting the option screen the scope hangs
Wrong FFT frequency when memory depth > 10 Mpts
Incorrect network storage path leads the scope to hang
Great news, that fix was released very fast Good work Siglent!
THX! :-)
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Done! :-) :-+
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First try FFT:
Sine- & Squarewave
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Apparently with the previous update the scope is now able to store screen shots on /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/local/SIGLENT if no USB drive is inserted.
But how do I get those screenshots out of the scope without telneting into the scope and remounting the USB drive read/write?
Jo
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Apparently with the previous update the scope is now able to store screen shots on /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/local/SIGLENT if no USB drive is inserted.
But how do I get those screenshots out of the scope without telneting into the scope and remounting the USB drive read/write?
Jo
Go looking in the Save/Recall menu.
Accessible from the front panel or via the webserver.
Will have one out later and have a close look for you........
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Hi tautech, thanks for pointing me into the right direction, didn't find it on my own :palm:
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Can anyone tell me the input specifications for the Digital Ports? Cannot find anything about impedance/capacitance.
I was happy to score the MSO bundle and have just tried the digital ports on one of my sick 1960s electronic calculators. These machines are discrete diode and transistor logic, in many cases load and bias resistors and differentiating caps are hand trimmed on a per-stage basis. One or two hundred Ge transistors, four or five times that for the diodes and all of them over fifty years old, kinda surprising that they work at all really!
The digital probe inputs seem to present enough load to disturb some of the vintage logic and I was looking for specs to confirm that this was likely to be the case. But I cannot find anything.
Anyone can point me in the right direction? Thanks!
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Can anyone tell me the input specifications for the Digital Ports? Cannot find anything about impedance/capacitance.
I was happy to score the MSO bundle and have just tried the digital ports on one of my sick 1960s electronic calculators. These machines are discrete diode and transistor logic, in many cases load and bias resistors and differentiating caps are hand trimmed on a per-stage basis. One or two hundred Ge transistors, four or five times that for the diodes and all of them over fifty years old, kinda surprising that they work at all really!
The digital probe inputs seem to present enough load to disturb some of the vintage logic and I was looking for specs to confirm that this was likely to be the case. But I cannot find anything.
Anyone can point me in the right direction? Thanks!
Probe datasheet..
Page 6..
But good point, not obvious to find..
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Also on the US site: Accessories>Probes>Digital Logic Probes
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Digital-Probe-Datasheet-V20E201912.pdf
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Thanks both! Dunno why I did not find that document. :palm:
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First try FFT:
Sine- & Squarewave
Have you noticed that the FFT setting might not be optimal?
You’re using a long 2 Mpts FFT for analyzing a LF signal. This is pretty slow and still provides only a rather poor frequency resolution of ~24 Hz, which in turn will result in a RBW (resolution bandwidth) of some 50 to 100 Hz, depending on the window function used.
Speaking of window functions, you should select it carefully. Use Flattop whenever amplitude accuracy is important and blackman for a slightly better dynamic range and narrower resolution bandwidth otherwise.
Your FFT uses 50 MSa/s sample rate, which results in an FFT bandwidth of 25 MHz. This is overkill to watch a 1 kHz sine wave and consequently you have to use an extreme zoom for the FFT display. If you limit the FFT bandwidth to e.g. 100 kHz (by limiting the FFT length to 16 kpts) you avoid generating a bunch of unused data and get a faster update of the spectrum. With this setting, you could still watch all the harmonics up to n=100 ;)
The first attached screenshot shows this situation with your timebase setting of 10 ms/div. This also means that the FFT has a lower bandwidth limit of 10 Hz. Frequency step is 12,21 Hz and I used the Flattop window where you nearly have to quadruple the frequency step in order to determine the RBW. So the resolution bandwidth in this example is slightly less than 50 Hz.
The second attached screenshot shows the same situation with a timebase setting of 50 ms/div. To get the same FFT bandwidth, FFT length had to be adjusted to 64 kpts. This slows acquisition down, hence also the FFT. The FFT now has a lower bandwidth limit of 2 Hz. Frequency step is 3,05 Hz and Flattop window is used again. The resolution bandwidth in this example is now slightly less than 12 Hz and you can see this clearly in the graph.
In both examples above the view is zoomed into the first 10 kHz, because as can be seen the harmonics of my sine wave (coming from an SDG6000X) are just too low to be properly measured and there is only noise above 10 kHz anyway.
For the square wave it is a bit more complex. As we all know, (especially) narrow pulses can have a fairly constant spectrum up to very high frequencies. So my advice here is to first inspect a full bandwidth spectrum (i.e. with an FFT sample rate of 1 GSa/s for full 500 MHz FFT bandwidth) to determine the bandwidth of the input signal and then chose the final FFT bandwidth accordingly.
EDIT: if you don't follow this advice, you might get very confusing spurious lines coming from aliasing in the FFT, even though there is no aliasing in the Y-t plot.
The third screenshot shows a triangle wave, which has a spectrum with reasonably fast decay. Analysis bandwidth is 100 kHz again with the full bandwidth displayed. Without the zoom, the spectral lines are nice thin and sharp, so the visual resolution leaves nothing to be desired and a slower timebase (together with a longer FFT) is not required here.
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Normally, the fan noise of my sds2k+ doesn´t annoying me - Now I got a new "toy room" and now it annoys a little bit... ;)
So I decided to change the fan against a low noise one, in this case a noctua nf-a9.
The fan size is 92x92, not 80x80 which was my first thought.
The thickness are the same, so I don´t expect any mechanical problems.
Additionally, I´ve ordered a pwm-fan control pcb... 8)
So let´s do it ! Wait a minute...Wtf...Argh, don´t have a suitable screwdriver here... ::) :P
OK, next weekend... :( ;)
Martin
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Normally, the fan noise of my sds2k+ doesn´t annoying me - Now I got a new "toy room" and now it annoys a little bit... ;)
I'm with you. It's a great scope, but the fan is too noisy.
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Have you noticed that the FFT setting might not be optimal?
...
Thank your very much for your detailed answer and instructions/hints on how to use the FFT, I`m still learning!
Alles Gute und vor allem --> g'sund bleiben! :-) #Austria
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I'm with you. It's a great scope, but the fan is too noisy.
I wouldn´t say too noisy, just a little bit annoying in a very calm room.
The noise of my former rigol 5000 was more disturbing, even after the upgrade.
But both are nothing, really nothing against the noise of a lecroy wavejet...
You can take the word JET in it seriously... ;D
Another thing:
The siglent case got torx screws as far as I can see - Do someone know the exact size?
Don´t want to buy a whole set of TX screwdrivers....
Martin
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T10 will work…..just checked.
However you could consult the service manual for tools required. ;)
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I'm with you. It's a great scope, but the fan is too noisy.
I wouldn´t say too noisy, just a little bit annoying in a very calm room.
The noise of my former rigol 5000 was more disturbing, even after the upgrade.
But both are nothing, really nothing against the noise of a lecroy wavejet...
You can take the word JET in it seriously... ;D
Another thing:
The siglent case got torx screws as far as I can see - Do someone know the exact size?
Don´t want to buy a whole set of TX screwdrivers....
Martin
Like Tau says T10..
BUt Martin, I'm confused.. It doesn't work that way.
In situations like this , that is good reason to buy the whole set.... >:D :-DD
That is how you do it... :-DD
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Don´t want to buy a whole set of TX screwdrivers....
You have a minimum price bar??
One of these days I'll make a torx set review to help you buy a good one! :)
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Guys... ;)
I never need a torx since today, all the years... 8)
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Now I got the right ONE... 8)
Interesting, the original fan is mounted on a rubber..
There is enough space around for the fancontrol pcb, so I think I drill some holes for bolts for it.
But first and the next step is to measure the fan voltage - is it 12v ? And all the time, that´s important for the fan control pcb.
To be continued..
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Hi Martin,
the fan run's at 12VDC ... I didn't noticed any RPM control or change ... constant noisy before the modification.
Interessting project with the little control pcb ... I just used one of the noctua fan speed control cables (resistor inside) to bring the rpm down.
Works well and very robust ;-)
BR,
Deichgraf
PS: here are some pictures of my "opening" session in April 2021 :-)
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Hi Deichgraf,
the fan run's at 12VDC ... I didn't noticed any RPM control or change
Thankyou, makes it easier...
I just used one of the noctua fan speed control cables
Ah, this is meant with "LNA", got one in the package too... :-X
Nevertheless, I´ll use the pcb...was a little bit afraid about the ambient temperature.
It´s a pity, the fanconnector on the pcb, you can see it is prepared for 4-pole pwm...You post a pic also.
I think I use the rubber from the "sucker" ( warm air sucking out of the case) for the noctua too.
BR
Martin
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Further things done...
Marked and drilled holes and paying attention, not to leave any metal chips over.
Also I´ve done the mounting with polyester screws/nuts only.
I think, it will be finished today.
To be continued..
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Finally it´s done...
No need to cut off the connector from the original fan when you got the preciva crimp set... 8)
Reassembling the unit and turning it on - It works and.....silence is golden.. ;D
This solution is probably one of the best, but my warranty is now lost.
Other no warranty lost solution:
-Make your own connection cable as described before, so you could change back to the original fan without leaving any traces..
-Warm up the warranty-sign before open the case...
-Take the LNA (Deichgrafs post) instead of adding a pcb to reduce fan speed...
Martin
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Hi Martin,
good work and if I had a clue about the preciva cimp set ...
So you used also a NTC temperature probe to control fan RPM depending on how hot it is in the box?
Regards
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Hi Deichgraf,
Thankyou and yes, the ntc is part of the speed controlling, according to the DIP switches.
Me I thought, I´ve switched it to 40°C but it seems the fan is running at full speed from the beginning, so I must check it again - Although and even at this speed the noctua fan is remarkable quiter than the original. 8)
if I had a clue about the preciva cimp set
Last year I´ve bought this complete set on https://www.amazon.de/Crimpzange-Dupont-Stecker-Steckverbinder-Crimpkontakten/dp/B07QX51F3B/ref=sr_1_4?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&keywords=preciva+crimpzange+set&qid=1636314038&sr=8-4]Amazon (https://www.amazon.de/Crimpzange-Dupont-Stecker-Steckverbinder-Crimpkontakten/dp/B07QX51F3B/ref=sr_1_4?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&keywords=preciva+crimpzange+set&qid=1636314038&sr=8-4)
It works well, didn´t regret it so far.
Martin
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so I must check it again
I´ve bought the fan controller on amazon (https://www.amazon.de/Vierdraht-Thermostat-L%C3%BCfter-Drehzahlregler-Regler/dp/B07SQQGBY9/ref=sr_1_15?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=1OAKBLFPA5RYV&keywords=l%C3%BCftersteuerung+12v&qid=1636310679&sprefix=L%C3%BC%2Caps%2C230&sr=8-15) and as "always", there´s no manual avaible.. :P
But thank god, someone in the world wide web checked this controller before:
https://www.electroschematics.com/fan-speed-controller/ (https://www.electroschematics.com/fan-speed-controller/)
Ah, now everything seems clearer.... ;D
After done the settings you can´t hear a damn thing, very nice...
Martin
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Does anyone have a link to the ADS file to enable telnet for the SDS2000X+ on the latest firmware? I can't seem to find it anywhere.
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Does anyone have a link to the ADS file to enable telnet for the SDS2000X+ on the latest firmware? I can't seem to find it anywhere.
Last I checked there was no need to go poking into the OS on these when the online scripts work just fine.
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Does anyone have a link to the ADS file to enable telnet for the SDS2000X+ on the latest firmware? I can't seem to find it anywhere.
Last I checked there was no need to go poking into the OS on these when the online scripts work just fine.
For normal purposes, you are correct. I'm just looking to do a little investigative research. ;)
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you want to read https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3006340/#msg3006340 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3006340/#msg3006340)
and the last couple of answers from https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/msg3737410/#msg3737410 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/msg3737410/#msg3737410)
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10/21/2021 - 1.3.9R6 - Wrong FFT frequency when memory depth > 10 Mpts
FIXED! Yea!
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Hello :)
Do you know what are the differences between the different hardware version ?
I noticed at least two versions : 02-00 and 02-04
If it hasn't been discussed yet, I'm curious to know what subject these differences play on ?
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Finally it´s done...
No need to cut off the connector from the original fan when you got the preciva crimp set... 8)
-Take the LNA (Deichgrafs post) instead of adding a pcb to reduce fan speed...
There is third pin place on scope board and I think there was something for fan speed when exploring the conf files, maybe it works only with SDS5000 though. Might be worth going over.
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them SP2035 probes !!
it has been up quite a few times before, BUT now I wanted to solve it, once and for all,
it is possible to take apart the tip, and the metal part out, now press a little bit , see red arrow, now the metal is in contact with the scope tip.
I also added glue to make it more easy to use.
The BNC end : the 6 gnd blades are normally supposed to be a bit springy, they are not like that at all,
so the connector body is way to loose and with unstable gnd contact with the scope, carefully bend all 6 blades out
only as little as it is barely visible you did it, now feel how much better the connector mate with scope,
and note your measurements are nice and stable.
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hello everyone... i just got my SDS2074X Plus, base on old post i make it to 500MhZ ..... only the SDS-2000-FG cant use... anyone can tell me how to active it? many many thx.
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hello everyone... i just got my SDS2074X Plus, base on old post i make it to 500MhZ ..... only the SDS-2000-FG cant use... anyone can tell me how to active it? many many thx.
Search works just fine:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-hack/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-hack/)
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i have tried it many times... but all not working... only the FG part not work other all fine
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Very very simple. You have to use the FG at least one time in the test/free mode before you can enter
the serial number. I spend a nice afternoon with increasing frustration since it was the first license
I tried to enter and I thought the whole improvement process wont‘t work with my device.
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can u tell me which i key gen i should use? since i tried ur method but....
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can u tell me which i key gen i should use? since i tried ur method but....
Option codes are always lowercase.
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Hi Performa01!
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3782555/#msg3782555 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3782555/#msg3782555)
I am very happy with this topic! 😊
I would like to use it for sound frequency measurement (FFT).
If fed with a lower distortion 1kHz generator, would much smaller distortion values be measurable?
For example:
-80dBv THD 0.01%
-90dBv THD 0.00316%
-100dBv THD 0.001% 😊
Regards Garga
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Hi Garga,
sorry, but you cannot use an 8 bit system to measure very low distortion levels.
With appropriate dither or an auxiliary signal, the dynamic range could be stretched up to some 70 dB, that means 0.03% theoretically. But it's tricky.
For distortion measurements, I use a Picotech 4262 DSO, as this provides 96 dB dynamic range already without any tricks.
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o thx very very much. thx everyone which helped me...
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To measure distortion, you can use a notch filter to "cut" the first harmonic.
For distortion measurements, I use a Picotech 4262 DSO, as this provides 96 dB dynamic range already without any tricks.
This scope is confused by a bandwidth of only 5 MHz.
A 5000 series picoscope with switchable vertical resolution ADC is not suitable for this purpose?
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This scope is confused by a bandwidth of only 5 MHz.
Should be more than enough when measuring distortions in music-range up to 20khz.
But we´re going out of topic here.. ;)
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Should be more than enough when measuring distortions in music-range up to 20khz.
It turns out that one device is needed to measure distortion, and to see, for example, the self-excitation of an electronic circuit at tens of megahertz, another device is needed ... :(
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To measure distortion, you can use a notch filter to "cut" the first harmonic.
For distortion measurements, I use a Picotech 4262 DSO, as this provides 96 dB dynamic range already without any tricks.
This scope is confused by a bandwidth of only 5 MHz.
A 5000 series picoscope with switchable vertical resolution ADC is not suitable for this purpose?
It has bandwidth of 5MHz, more than enough for audio, vibration measurements etc..
It also has a noise floor of 8 uV rms... !!!
SFDR: 96 dB typical @ 10 kHz, –1 dBfs input. Around 0,002% distortion.
It also includes low distortion DC to 20 kHz AWG. (102 dB typical @ 10 kHz, -1 dBfs output).
It is actually pretty unique instrument..
5000 Series is excellent general purpose scope that has better resolution than even average 12 bit scope. But higher resolutions come at cost:
16 bit mode comes with lower sample rate of 62.5 MS/s and on single channel only. So in 16 bit you have 30MHz single channel scope.
SFDR in14 to 16-bit modes: 70 dB at 100 kHz full scale input. (around 0,03% distortion)
That one too is pretty unique instrument, that can serve as general purpose scope and have higher resolution when needed with some compromises.
5000 is good enough to service and check on audio equipment for musicians (PA, instrument amplifiers). You just cannot measure very low distortion. Probably good enough for normal musical equipment. It is just that 4262 is order of magnitude better.
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Should be more than enough when measuring distortions in music-range up to 20khz.
It turns out that one device is needed to measure distortion, and to see, for example, the self-excitation of an electronic circuit at tens of megahertz, another device is needed ... :(
Distortion of what?
If you're working in radio frequencies, than RF equipment is what you need. I would say a good spectrum analyser would be an instrument for that task.
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Hi Performa01!
Thanks a lot for the help, I look into the Picotech 4262. :)
Regards Garga
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For measuring distortion on audio devices, a QuantAsylum QA401/QA402 is what I use. It's cheaper than a picoscope, but only does audio measurement. That means you need a scope for other types of measurements though.
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Next month, I will have a neutrik a1 for this... 8)
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I got for the audio stuff after long search an old Terratec DMX6 Fire USB, 192 kHz, 24 bit audio interface.
Works well with Win10, low noise and useable up to 90 kHz, there is enough Audio software out in the web that get the job done.
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Hi blurpy!
I've looked at the QuantAsylum QA401 before, but other forums have had problems with software compatibility (Windows). Meanwhile, the Q401 has been discontinued and replaced with the Q402 as a new product, but production is stalling. I am looking for a reliable solution at an affordable price.
What is your experience with the Q402?
Regards Garga
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Hi,
for audio applications the QuantAsylum or a good soundcard with (free) Software like HolmImpulse etc. will go a long way ... all featuring 24Bit ADCs and DACs.
Analyzers like the Quant typically have the edge regarding the analog frontend (relay switched attenuators, balanced inputs, etc.), which also allows for easier handling and settings.
Beyond ~100kHz up to ~10MHz the Digilent´s 14Bit AnalogDiscovery2 might just be the device of choice ... especially as it can be configured as scope, Audio Analyzer, VNA, SA, AWG, etc.
I have both, the Quant and the Digilent and use the Quant reguarly ... and never had issues regarding Windows with any of both.
regards
Calvin
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Hi blurpy!
I've looked at the QuantAsylum QA401 before, but other forums have had problems with software compatibility (Windows). Meanwhile, the Q401 has been discontinued and replaced with the Q402 as a new product, but production is stalling. I am looking for a reliable solution at an affordable price.
What is your experience with the Q402?
Regards Garga
Maybe you are thinking of QA400? They used some parts in that one that modern Windows does not have drivers for. This is as far as I know not an issue with QA401 or QA402. I don't have any experience with Windows myself and use both of them from Linux only.
The QA401 didn't have a user interface for Linux so I made a web interface for it: https://github.com/blurpy/qa401w
And the software for QA402 has official Linux support with a UI, but since it's very new it crashes a lot, so I maintain a web interface for that as well: https://github.com/blurpy/qa40xw
I've done a comparison of how they perform, which you can see here: https://forum.quantasylum.com/t/effect-of-attenuation-level-on-results/494/12
Having spent a lot of time with these devices, I think they are really nice for the price, and I use them a lot. The QA402 needs refinement in the software, but that looks to be improving. The plug and play part is what I like the most, as I've messed around with sound card measurements before and it's a lot of hassle dealing with attenuation and keeping the signal from being messed up by the OS or other software.
You are right that QuantAsylum is struggling with parts delivery, like many others.
Maybe send them a message and ask about it?
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Thank you all very much for your help!
I'll check the manufacturer's website for information. :)
Regards Garga
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Hi blurpy!
I've looked at the QuantAsylum QA401 before, but other forums have had problems with software compatibility (Windows). Meanwhile, the Q401 has been discontinued and replaced with the Q402 as a new product, but production is stalling. I am looking for a reliable solution at an affordable price.
What is your experience with the Q402?
Regards Garga
Maybe you are thinking of QA400? They used some parts in that one that modern Windows does not have drivers for. This is as far as I know not an issue with QA401 or QA402. I don't have any experience with Windows myself and use both of them from Linux only.
The QA401 didn't have a user interface for Linux so I made a web interface for it: https://github.com/blurpy/qa401w
And the software for QA402 has official Linux support with a UI, but since it's very new it crashes a lot, so I maintain a web interface for that as well: https://github.com/blurpy/qa40xw
I've done a comparison of how they perform, which you can see here: https://forum.quantasylum.com/t/effect-of-attenuation-level-on-results/494/12
Having spent a lot of time with these devices, I think they are really nice for the price, and I use them a lot. The QA402 needs refinement in the software, but that looks to be improving. The plug and play part is what I like the most, as I've messed around with sound card measurements before and it's a lot of hassle dealing with attenuation and keeping the signal from being messed up by the OS or other software.
You are right that QuantAsylum is struggling with parts delivery, like many others.
Maybe send them a message and ask about it?
I think Q402 is excellent device. I was thinking of maybe buying one but they do have problems now.
From the site:
"Update 17-Aug-2021: The QA402 is on backorder. Given the scarce part availability, we don't yet know when it will be back in stock. As soon as we do, we'll start taking orders again."
That is last update.
That basically made me stop and think. Not only I cannot order one now, but also that is brand new device that also needed software rewrite. So software now is not nowhere near something "full production". And than all this problems with parts, I'm franky going to wait and see if they are still here in 6 months and if the development went on. Otherwise there is risk to get stuck with nice piece of hardware that has half done software and vendor went bust...
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well lets say the audio equipment is really bad ?
the SDS2000 in 10 bit mode, could tell THD down to 0.1% actually,
it could still be cool with a THD calculation live on the scope, specially when you play with DIY audio.
it must be possible to do this in software ?
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5000 is good enough to service and check on audio equipment for musicians (PA, instrument amplifiers). You just cannot measure very low distortion. Probably good enough for normal musical equipment. It is just that 4262 is order of magnitude better.
The Pico 4262 seems to be a really unique device ... I'll have to take a closer look ...
But it is not clear why 16bit and 30 MHz for Pico5000 is worse than 16bit and 5MHz for Pico4262?
Pico4262: SFDR 96 dB typical @ 10 kHz, –1 dBfs input
Pico5000: SFDR 14 to 16-bit modes: 70 dB at 100 kHz full scale input.
Maybe the question is in bandwidth and for the same bandwidth, will the SFDR data be the same too?
Maybe these are some wrong bits for the Pico5000? :)
P.S. Sorry for the offtopic.
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Last OT post regarding LF scopes. Yes the pico 4262 looks nice but the price is ….mmh…. impressive. And for audio it is OTT.
As oz2cpu wrote the SDS is useable for regular audio stuff in HiFi range. And to be realistic, my last hearing test
proves that my upper limits are around 12 kHz. But you can not have this discussion with an „Audiophile“.
As mentioned I use the SDS as well but FFT in the LF range is slow and not convenient. But with a good sound interface
and a software as AudioTester you get everything you want.
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With my master of physics I'd say: You are right. I'm an old guy and I will most probably miss sinus frequencies above 10kHz.
I use 5way-Speakers with super tweeters above 9.2kHz. When I feed these super tweeters only , I do hear only some low level sizzling scratchy noise. Easy to decide that this does not contribute anything worth reproducing.
But on the other hand: Coming from 5-way reproduction, switching off the super tweeters does destroy the music completely. Anybody will hear that and nobody would accept to listen without the super tweeters.
Seems that music perception is more complex than the added abilities to recognize certain sinus frequencies with conscious hearing.
To get back on topic:
I really like modern DSOs like the 2k+ to have fourier capabilities sufficient for audio stuff, whatever rabbit hole audiophiles are running down. :-)
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With my Ph.D. in engineering I agree. You can not hear it, but you recognize the missing of something.
Unfortunately it becomes worser with my hearing. First time I was full aware of this was during listening
of „Shine on you crazy diamond“ Part 1 and I could only hardly hear the soft clinking in the beginning :-//
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Next "Hifi" we buy might be some kind of those little ones you plug into the ears. :-DD
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Guys, please...stop it.
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Guys, please...stop it.
Sorry for the dertour :phew:
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Hello,
I own the SDS2104X-Plus and it's a very good peace of gear, very good value for money.
Anyway, for THD measurements of audio stuff it's definitively the wrong choice.
Even you internal PC audio soudcard will do much better.
The 8 bits resolution of the scope is the main limiting factor.
To check have made a measurement of a 10kHz high purity sine wave
(THD <-130dBc) with 1Vrms amplitude (0dBV).
You can show the FFT result below.
I made the test at 1kHz too with similar results.
Noise floor level is very good (high res 10 bits mode + FFT average 2MPTS),
but harmonics level are very high.
So If you want to use it for such purpose, you cant be very demanding ^-^
Frex
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Having made a logic probe for the SDS2000 (Big thanks to oz2cpu), I was surprised to not find such an important item as setting the trigger hysteresis in the digital channels menu. Without the possibility of triggering hysteresis, the edges of the pulses have random jitter and phantom spurs even at low frequency signals. As a result, time measurements become meaningless when using a logic analyzer. And how did the Siglent's engineers miss such an important point?
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Having made a logic probe for the SDS2000 (Big thanks to oz2cpu), I was surprised to not find such an important item as setting the trigger hysteresis in the digital channels menu. Without the possibility of triggering hysteresis, the edges of the pulses have random jitter and phantom spurs even at low frequency signals. As a result, time measurements become meaningless when using a logic analyzer. And how did the Siglent's engineers miss such an important point?
Your answer is on this page. Study all later posts carefully:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/msg3509216/#msg3509216 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/msg3509216/#msg3509216)
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Thanks tautech, I didn't even know about this topic!
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Seems that music perception is more complex than the added abilities to recognize certain sinus frequencies with conscious hearing.
Here's an experiment. If you have a function gen, connect a set of headphones to it. Set the output to a low voltage, like 0.1V rms and 1kHz. Turn up the amplitude until you reach normal listening volume. Then turn up the frequency to where you can't hear it anymore, for me that's 12-13kHz depending on ear. Then turn it up a little further, another 2kHz. Finally turn up the amplitude; at some point while you can't hear the tone you can feel it. Like you feel its presence, or a pressure on your head/ears. Don't go further to avoid hearing damage.
I'm pretty sure the same thing happens with music as well - a subtle element of this feeling of presence, modulated to the music, makes it more realistic.
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I'm sure your brain will be happy to fill in the tones that it knows to usually go with that particular sensation, even if the ears have grown numb to them.
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Got my SDS2104X plus ...opened to a SDS2504X plus ;)
But I can not get multiple separate traces(windows) on the screen, only in FFT comes in a separate trace
Where is this menu ???
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Hello,
As I know, It is not possible to split the screen for each trace (if i understand well what you want to do).
In FFT mode as you have seen, it is possible to show it in split mode or not.
Frex
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Thanks for the answer
But that surprises me....
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Hi,
Single-, dual-, quadgrid etc, you won´t find this nice feature on lower...mid-cost scopes(although I got it on my sds2k+ wishlist).
The sds5000 didn´t have it too and let´s hope for siglent, their new flagship will have it.
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I'm sure your brain will be happy to fill in the tones that it knows to usually go with that particular sensation, even if the ears have grown numb to them.
Huh?
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I'm sure your brain will be happy to fill in the tones that it knows to usually go with that particular sensation, even if the ears have grown numb to them.
Huh?
I don't want to derail the thread, but it is essentially how our brain creates the reality we perceive: not what is actually there, but our brains best guess of what should be there. That sensation of pressure we feel without actually, physically hearing a sound is amended by the brain with information from way back when we were still physically able to "hear". Much like feeling a limb you've lost.
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Hi,
Single-, dual-, quadgrid etc, you won´t find this nice feature on lower...mid-cost scopes(although I got it on my sds2k+ wishlist).
The sds5000 didn´t have it too and let´s hope for siglent, their new flagship will have it.
It is a so simple matter as it is just representation of data in another way.
Took me total by surprise...
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Hi,
Single-, dual-, quadgrid etc, you won´t find this nice feature on lower...mid-cost scopes(although I got it on my sds2k+ wishlist).
The sds5000 didn´t have it too and let´s hope for siglent, their new flagship will have it.
It is a so simple matter as it is just representation of data in another way.
Took me total by surprise...
It is absolutely not surprising. If you take a bit of time and look around at other manufacturers, you will see that split viewports and user controlled screen layout is definitely not common feature.
In fact, try to find a single one that has something like that that is not based on PC motherboard and is high end scope costing more than 15000 USD new.
Would it be nice? Sure, I want it too.
Common and surprising that it doesn't have?
Quite the opposite, it would be surprising if it had it.
There is quite a lot of windowing anyways. You have separate measurement window, decode window. There are separate windows for detail histogram of measurements, markers and peaks, search, history navigation, track/trend plot, DVM, etc...
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I was "mislead" by the pictures of different function with separate windows...(function you mentioned) and thought that multi windows where of course there :)
I have used High-end scopes a long time ago and remembered them with separate windows :)
Anyway you get a lot of scope for the money (especially when it gets "released" with all the BW and options)
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I have used High-end scopes a long time ago and remembered them with separate windows :)
Well, that might be because those scopes typically actually ran some version of Windows, so windows made sense. I haven't used them a lot, but I've seen some in action. I really don't think that windows (or Windows) is a good solution on a small-ish instrument screen. Or at least it isn't better than a well-implemented scope display system using other methods.
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Anyway you get a lot of scope for the money (especially when it gets "released" with all the BW and options)
Indeed :-+
Siglent has created the best valued higher end instrument we've ever had. Everything about the SDS2000X+ is so well done and useful. The UI is very good, and with a mouse really nice, a little slow if one is running 2M FFTs but that's expected! It's hard to find fault with these MSOs, sure you'll find the usual bickering about how the memory is implemented, and so on, usually by those that don't have one!! Our only serious complaint is why we can't get a true 12 bit ADC version here in NA :-[
Siglent has also created a monster, in that now all the Siglent instruments are "EXPECTED" to be as good as the SDS2000X+, and a very tough act to follow. The new released SDS6000 is at a different price point, and not available in NA in the 12 bit versions. Would be very nice if the SDS2000X+ were offered with a 12 bit ADC (new TI or AD ADCs) for a "Premium" SDS2000Z+ version ::)
Best,
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I have used High-end scopes a long time ago and remembered them with separate windows :)
Well, that might be because those scopes typically actually ran some version of Windows, so windows made sense. I haven't used them a lot, but I've seen some in action. I really don't think that windows (or Windows) is a good solution on a small-ish instrument screen. Or at least it isn't better than a well-implemented scope display system using other methods.
That was before windows ;)
When instruments bootet in few seconds ;)
It was some LeCroy's based on LeCroy sw running on 680XX CPU's
It was amazing what those BOX'es could do at that time :)
But for at LOT of money :)
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This was what drives me mad before...
Our testfield are fullpacked with lecroy scopes, I´ve "learned" on these ones.
And they´re old, very old....
We got some 93XX here with yellow crts.... ;D
Also some waverunner lt 4-ch, some wavesurfers....
And two newer ones, our "flagships", a hdo6000A and a waverunner 9000....
And even the old 93XX have multigrid.... 8)
So I was confused, why new scopes, (more or less)regardless of the price, didn´t have this feature....It couldn´t be the hardware performance, when an old lecroy got it decades before.
But meanwhile I´ve accepted it, my sds2k+ won´t have it, now and in the future. ;)
After over a year, I can fully agree to maywatt, this scope is the real pricebreaker.
You won´t get more "professional feeling" for this value and above, until you come to the values of a sds5k.
Working with the new lecroys before, the UI of the sds2k+ felt immediately very familar to me, really nice.
OK, ok, the performance of the hdo6000a is a class beyond, no surprise.
But there are not less daily test situations, you won´t miss the hdo when working with the siglent.
And if I had a wish, I would wish a decoding UI, more similar to lecroy. :D
Actually, I test a board with SPI communication at work, I´ll post some pictures in the next days, how the UI of the lecroy looks like.
From a lecroy ws3024, also known as sds3k....
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Some really good news for those that have purchased SDS2104X Plus, hacked it and need/want higher BW autosense probes.
It seems Siglent does want to sell probes and at really hot pricing too on the SP2000 and 3000 10x autosense range.
https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/probes/passive-probes/
Yes I may have helped them to see the obvious. :horse: :-X
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Anyone has compared, how the SDS2000X Plus bus decode compares to 5000 series? The interface gets slowed down quite a lot with two buses active, wondering if it is good excuse for 5000 series there.
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Anyone has compared, how the SDS2000X Plus bus decode compares to 5000 series? The interface gets slowed down quite a lot with two buses active, wondering if it is good excuse for 5000 series there.
Try reducing the memory depth slightly if it's already set to the 200Mpts max.
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Hi there,
I'm having a problem with the SPI Decoder: After capturing an SPI sequence, which works well and shows the correct data (in the list view), I'd like to zoom in to see the full binary data also in the line view (where it is abbreviated). Hoewever, the full binaries only flash shortly and then vanish - I then see only two lines of MOSI and MISO, and no decoded data at all. It vanishes also from the list view. I only zoom up one additional level - and everything is gone (though signals of several bytes are on the screen). When I zoom back out, the abbreviated numbers return...
Am I just too stupid to use this correctly, or is it a bug? I'm using the latest firmware of the scope.
Cheers,
Anik
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Unlike other oscilloscopes, Siglent scopes only decode what is on screen. You have to use the zoom window to force a larger portion of decoded data to be available.
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Hi nctnico,
thanks for the explanation!
... Siglent scopes only decode what is on screen. ...
However, that's a weird decision by Siglent: Either you may see that the data can be decoded (but can't read the truncated numbers), or you can zoom in and see no data at all :scared:
(I had guessed, that Siglent must have had a reason to sell the logic probe as a summer special offer...)
But since this is a software issue, maybe Siglent will improve it some time?
Until then I'll stick to my small pocket LA :-+
Cheers,
Anik
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Hi there,
I'm having a problem with the SPI Decoder: After capturing an SPI sequence, which works well and shows the correct data (in the list view), I'd like to zoom in to see the full binary data also in the line view (where it is abbreviated). Hoewever, the full binaries only flash shortly and then vanish - I then see only two lines of MOSI and MISO, and no decoded data at all. It vanishes also from the list view. I only zoom up one additional level - and everything is gone (though signals of several bytes are on the screen). When I zoom back out, the abbreviated numbers return...
Am I just too stupid to use this correctly, or is it a bug? I'm using the latest firmware of the scope.
Cheers,
Anik
Simply, Siglent DSO's with deep memory are optimized for zoom in and the best way to use the deep memory is to capture long (slow) and zoom in for detailed inspection.
Zoom mode works well here using by the dual timebase feature and pan through the record or scroll the decode table.
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Some really good news for those that have purchased SDS2104X Plus, hacked it and need/want higher BW autosense probes.
It seems Siglent does want to sell probes and at really hot pricing too on the SP2000 and 3000 10x autosense range.
https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/probes/passive-probes/
Yes I may have helped them to see the obvious. :horse: :-X
Here in Europe it is 199€ plus tax for a SP3050A. So even more expensive than PML711A-RO. Lets hope prices will go down.
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Some really good news for those that have purchased SDS2104X Plus, hacked it and need/want higher BW autosense probes.
It seems Siglent does want to sell probes and at really hot pricing too on the SP2000 and 3000 10x autosense range.
https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/probes/passive-probes/
Yes I may have helped them to see the obvious. :horse: :-X
Here in Europe it is 199€ plus tax for a SP3050A. So even more expensive than PML711A-RO. Lets hope prices will go down.
Yes it may take a little time for old stock to be moved from some dealers however the new SP3050A pricing is nearly $100 less and is now $132.
SP2035A reduction is from $179 to $75 and is certainly very well priced now.
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Unlike other oscilloscopes, Siglent scopes only decode what is on screen. You have to use the zoom window to force a larger portion of decoded data to be available.
Yep, I confirmed this through a bit of testing.
There are upsides and downsides to this approach. The upside is that you can control which parts of the buffer are decoded, just by ensuring that they're visible on the screen. The downside is that you have to use zoom mode in order to see subsets of the desired decoded section.
On a scope with a smaller screen, this would be a dealbreaker. On the SDS2000X+, the screen is large enough to do a reasonable job of displaying both the zoomed portion and the unzoomed portion, even when showing a list of decoded items.
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And if I had a wish, I would wish a decoding UI, more similar to lecroy. :D
Actually, I test a board with SPI communication at work, I´ll post some pictures in the next days, how the UI of the lecroy looks like.
From a lecroy ws3024, also known as sds3k....
Here we go...
It was taken from a WS3024 and it looks like the ones from hdo6000a and wr9000 - but it works really slow... ;)
Nevertheless, the look of the decoding UI, the functions like search for something, link to trigger ( it works good..), bitrate viewing in the table and other stuff, I would like to have it on the siglent too...
(Pics are showing spi signal decoding from control electronic pcb, dsPIC30F6010A, decimal values from the measuring circuits)
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Hi there,
I'm having a problem with the SPI Decoder: After capturing an SPI sequence, which works well and shows the correct data (in the list view), I'd like to zoom in to see the full binary data also in the line view (where it is abbreviated). Hoewever, the full binaries only flash shortly and then vanish - I then see only two lines of MOSI and MISO, and no decoded data at all. It vanishes also from the list view. I only zoom up one additional level - and everything is gone (though signals of several bytes are on the screen). When I zoom back out, the abbreviated numbers return...
Am I just too stupid to use this correctly, or is it a bug? I'm using the latest firmware of the scope.
Cheers,
Anik
Simply, Siglent DSO's with deep memory are optimized for zoom in and the best way to use the deep memory is to capture long (slow) and zoom in for detailed inspection.
Zoom mode works well here using by the dual timebase feature and pan through the record or scroll the decode table.
Thanks, tautech, I totally had missed that! Using the zoom function/dual time base I get what I wanted and wasn't able to find :-+
Did I overlook all that in the documentation of the scope? I couldn't find a detailed description of the LA features and their use yet.
Cheers, Anik
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Hi there,
I'm having a problem with the SPI Decoder: After capturing an SPI sequence, which works well and shows the correct data (in the list view), I'd like to zoom in to see the full binary data also in the line view (where it is abbreviated). Hoewever, the full binaries only flash shortly and then vanish - I then see only two lines of MOSI and MISO, and no decoded data at all. It vanishes also from the list view. I only zoom up one additional level - and everything is gone (though signals of several bytes are on the screen). When I zoom back out, the abbreviated numbers return...
Am I just too stupid to use this correctly, or is it a bug? I'm using the latest firmware of the scope.
Cheers,
Anik
Simply, Siglent DSO's with deep memory are optimized for zoom in and the best way to use the deep memory is to capture long (slow) and zoom in for detailed inspection.
Zoom mode works well here using by the dual timebase feature and pan through the record or scroll the decode table.
Thanks, tautech, I totally had missed that! Using the zoom function/dual time base I get what I wanted and wasn't able to find :-+
Did I overlook all that in the documentation of the scope? I couldn't find a detailed description of the LA features and their use yet.
Cheers, Anik
No but just be sure you are referring to the latest manual version.
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/document/SDS2000X-Plus_UserManual_EN01C.pdf
TBH writing a manual that covers all usage types and user experience would fill several volumes especially if it incorporated 'we'll walk you through this while holding your hand' sections so the capabilities are only briefly explained and the rest should be learnt by doing. Having had most of their models over the years and while each has different capabilities and features I guess I find it all reasonably simple excepting some of the new and advanced features.
These Plus keep surprising the new buyer with their capability for the $ spent which also can work against them as while the spend is not great but the step up in experience required when coming from a basic DSO is.
Still, there's enough of these out there now there's quite a community willing to help those that are still finding their feet. Keep asking questions and someone will help. :)
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SP2035A reduction is from $179 to $75 and is certainly very well priced now.
I don't know if that was a typo or if they have raised the price already. I'm seeing $79 (US).
Just under $100 with shipping is what I paid a few minutes ago.
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SP2035A reduction is from $179 to $75 and is certainly very well priced now.
I don't know if that was a typo or if they have raised the price already. I'm seeing $79 (US).
Just under $100 with shipping is what I paid a few minutes ago.
Nice.
No typo but prices are a little all over the place. :-//
Our NZ pricelist:
SP2035A $75
10X attenuation, 12pf, 10Mohm, 350MHz,CAT Ⅱ 300Vrms, operating temperature -10 to 55 degrees. Supports probe attenuation factor detection from oscilloscope
US website: $79
https://siglentna.com/product/sp2035a-auto-sense-350-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/
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Has anyone used the SDS2000X Plus and Sigrok Pulseview lately? The older non-plus seems to be on the list but I was unable to connect. Are there specific aspects to know?
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Still, there's enough of these out there now there's quite a community willing to help those that are still finding their feet. Keep asking questions and someone will help. :)
Absolutely!!! :) :-+
I now got it working and found the data I was looking for in an SPI signal.
However, if I acquire data over a longer period, the user interface becomes so slow, that I first thought the osciloscope had crashed.
It took me several minutes to stop the decoding and shut the osciloscope down.
Anyway, I got everything working now.
And thanks for the link to the newest manual!
Cheers,
Anik
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Anik
Screenshots help immensely to point out possible settings errors so use the blue Print button to capture them to a USB stick and upload them here in the Attachments section when you post.
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Some really good news for those that have purchased SDS2104X Plus, hacked it and need/want higher BW autosense probes.
It seems Siglent does want to sell probes and at really hot pricing too on the SP2000 and 3000 10x autosense range.
https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/probes/passive-probes/
Yes I may have helped them to see the obvious. :horse: :-X
This is good timing! Just bought my SDS2104X Plus with an SPL2016/LA bundle, and those supplied probes aren't great. Neither are my Tek TPP0201's to be fair. Both seem to -3dB at 160 Mhz.
I only see siglent na with the cheaper price so far, and they don't seem to ship to 'straya.
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Some really good news for those that have purchased SDS2104X Plus, hacked it and need/want higher BW autosense probes.
It seems Siglent does want to sell probes and at really hot pricing too on the SP2000 and 3000 10x autosense range.
https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/probes/passive-probes/
Yes I may have helped them to see the obvious. :horse: :-X
This is good timing! Just bought my SDS2104X Plus with an SPL2016/LA bundle, and those supplied probes aren't great. Neither are my Tek TPP0201's to be fair. Both seem to -3dB at 160 Mhz.
I only see siglent na with the cheaper price so far, and they don't seem to ship to 'straya.
Our early BW checks were done with BNC cable connections and IIRC the internal 50 Ohm termination so hardly surprising a passive probe connection gives a different result. PP215 probes are certainly 200 MHz capable and are also shipped with the SDS2204X Plus which is likely to have a -3dB point nearing 250 MHz.
It will take some time for fresh stock of probes at the new pricing to filter down to resellers.
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I tested with a random crappy 50 ohm BNC termination on a tee-piece at the end of a 50 ohm coax, so quite likely my results aren't great.
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Anyone know what the -3dB bandwidth is on the SP2035A? Is it just 350MHz like it says, or is it higher than specified like with the cheaper probes?
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Anyone know what the -3dB bandwidth is on the SP2035A? Is it just 350MHz like it says, or is it higher than specified like with the cheaper probes?
Sorry I hunted but no SP2035A here. :(
Surely it will be much higher than 350 MHz if these 2 are anything to go by.
Scope SDS5104X, source SSG3021X N-BNC into 50 \$\Omega\$ feedthrough into BNC to probe tip adapter for a 25 Ohms source.
LF signal and cursors set to 1V, of which -3dB =~0.707V
SP2030A (300 MHz) ~590 MHz
SP3050A (500 MHz) ~900 MHz
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Anyone know what the -3dB bandwidth is on the SP2035A? Is it just 350MHz like it says, or is it higher than specified like with the cheaper probes?
Just a note.
Passive probes are measured with 25 Ohm source impedance. That is very low and in real life that bandwidth will rarely be reached (or shall I say, even more confusingly, that sometime it will easily, sometimes just so, and sometimes horribly no, with high internal impedance sources.)
Therefore, most important parameter of passive probe is tip capacitance. That capacitance will throw off oscillators, filters etc.
It will form first order low pass filter with any source that is not very low impedance.
Average, less than 200MHz probe, will have 14-15pf of capacitance on tip. Some even more.
SP2035A has 12pf and SP3050A is specced at 11pf. That means that in real life you will get loading similar to SP3050A ( a bit more) and will get similar performance. Not as good, but in test with 25 Ohm source better than 350MHz, and more importantly, similar circuit loading that is anyways much larger problem than theoretical bandwidth.
In short, SP2035A is a good match for SDS2000X+. And with newly announced pricing good buy.
SP3050A IS a nicer probe, more premium feel, real A tier product. But not necessary for 2000X+.
You would need it for 5000 and 6000 series, to accompany higher class instrument.
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Anik
Screenshots help immensely to point out possible settings errors so use the blue Print button to capture them to a USB stick and upload them here in the Attachments section when you post.
I've tried to reproduce the none-responsiveness of the UI, but didn't succeed yet - strange... :-//
But since I'd liked to try with the print button, here is another question: the decoded data doesn't appear right under the 8 bit it comes from (see screenshot), is that normal?
The data is correct obviously, but it is harder to compare to the signal here than I'm used to.
Thanks & cheers,
Anik
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...
I've tried to reproduce the none-responsiveness of the UI, but didn't succeed yet - strange... :-//
But since I'd liked to try with the print button, here is another question: the decoded data doesn't appear right under the 8 bit it comes from (see screenshot), is that normal?
The data is correct obviously, but it is harder to compare to the signal here than I'm used to.
Thanks & cheers,
Anik
1. CS is missing (at least on screen period)
2. You are decoding a 16 bit word as two 8 bit values (what about endianess?)
greets Walter
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1. CS is missing (at least on screen period)
2. You are decoding a 16 bit word as two 8 bit values (what about endianess?)
Hi Walter,
CS is not missing, it's just not on the screen. Nevertheless, the decoding is absolutely correct.
The complete data stream consists of single bytes (commands) and multiple bytes (data), so that's all ok.
The only small issue I have is the display of the data; sometimes it is perfectly displayed in line (on the x-axis) with the bits, and sometimes not, as shown.
Cheers,
Anik
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Anik
Screenshots help immensely to point out possible settings errors so use the blue Print button to capture them to a USB stick and upload them here in the Attachments section when you post.
I've tried to reproduce the none-responsiveness of the UI, but didn't succeed yet - strange... :-//
But since I'd liked to try with the print button, here is another question: the decoded data doesn't appear right under the 8 bit it comes from (see screenshot), is that normal?
The data is correct obviously, but it is harder to compare to the signal here than I'm used to.
Thanks & cheers,
Anik
Very normal with the settings you have used.
Why a Pulse trigger instead of an Edge trigger ? Did you use any Trigger Holdoff ?
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Very normal with the settings you have used.
Why a Pulse trigger instead of an Edge trigger ? Did you use any Trigger Holdoff ?
Hi Tautech,
no I didn't use any holdoff. And I'm using the pulse trigger in this case, because the before the signals I want to see there are many shorter pulses, which are ignored in this way.
I wouldn't mind using something else, but it works perfectly.
As I mentioned, the signals look as they should, the decoding is right, I'm only confused, why the decoded data is not aligned with the bits.
It's no drama, of course, just a little strange thing.
What setting especially made you write "Very normal with the settings you have used."?
Thanks & cheers,
Anik
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...
I've tried to reproduce the none-responsiveness of the UI, but didn't succeed yet - strange... :-//
But since I'd liked to try with the print button, here is another question: the decoded data doesn't appear right under the 8 bit it comes from (see screenshot), is that normal?
The data is correct obviously, but it is harder to compare to the signal here than I'm used to.
Thanks & cheers,
Anik
1. CS is missing (at least on screen period)
2. You are decoding a 16 bit word as two 8 bit values (what about endianess?)
It is entirely possible to send multiple 8 bit words back-to-back on SPI. So having the decoded result aligned with the actual data is very useful to have. With the screenshot Anik posted you still need to guess what is what and that kinda defeats the purpose of decoding.
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Very normal with the settings you have used.
Why a Pulse trigger instead of an Edge trigger ? Did you use any Trigger Holdoff ?
Hi Tautech,
no I didn't use any holdoff. And I'm using the pulse trigger in this case, because the before the signals I want to see there are many shorter pulses, which are ignored in this way.
I wouldn't mind using something else, but it works perfectly.
As I mentioned, the signals look as they should, the decoding is right, I'm only confused, why the decoded data is not aligned with the bits.
It's no drama, of course, just a little strange thing.
What setting especially made you write "Very normal with the settings you have used."?
Thanks & cheers,
Anik
By what I see on the screenshot the scope is in Stop mode, that is not running and the reason why the decode is not aligned. When triggering is solid the decode should align with the bits while the scope runs.
Personally I would rather use analogue channels for what you have so to be able to use Zoom split screen mode and so the trigger point can still be seen.
If the bus is not too fast maybe you can make up some short extender wires to use the grabbers with the scopes probes.
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Very normal with the settings you have used.
Why a Pulse trigger instead of an Edge trigger ? Did you use any Trigger Holdoff ?
Hi Tautech,
no I didn't use any holdoff. And I'm using the pulse trigger in this case, because the before the signals I want to see there are many shorter pulses, which are ignored in this way.
I wouldn't mind using something else, but it works perfectly.
As I mentioned, the signals look as they should, the decoding is right, I'm only confused, why the decoded data is not aligned with the bits.
It's no drama, of course, just a little strange thing.
What setting especially made you write "Very normal with the settings you have used."?
Thanks & cheers,
Anik
By what I see on the screenshot the scope is in Stop mode, that is not running and the reason why the decode is not aligned. When triggering is solid the decode should align with the bits while the scope runs.
No! :palm: The decoder software can 'see' the clock pulses and align the data with that. There is absolutely no reason for decoding to depend on a trigger! In fact, having decoding alignment depending on a trigger will mis-align the decoding in many circumstances.
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By what I see on the screenshot the scope is in Stop mode, that is not running and the reason why the decode is not aligned. When triggering is solid the decode should align with the bits while the scope runs.
This doesn't make any sense to me at all. The decoder operates on the data in the capture buffer. Whether the buffer's contents are transitory (which is the case when the scope is running) or stable (which is the case when the scope is stopped) makes no difference whatsoever that I'm aware of. The scope clearly knows when the trigger fired when the scope is stopped because it clearly shows that in the display. In this case, the trigger location is off-screen.
I don't know how the decoder itself is configured here, but it appears that CS is active low and the /CS transition isn't visible on the screen, and that suggests to me that the CS configuration in the decoder is set to "CLK timeout", and that may be why the decoded portion looks misaligned. Can't say.
Anik, what happens if you configure the decoder with a CS configuration of active low? The decoder won't show anything unless the CS transition to active is shown on the screen, but you may get better aligned results that way.
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There is absolutely no reason for decoding to depend on a trigger! In fact, having decoding alignment depending on a trigger will mis-align the decoding in many circumstances.
If it´s so, for what are the special decoding trigger types good for ?
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There is absolutely no reason for decoding to depend on a trigger! In fact, having decoding alignment depending on a trigger will mis-align the decoding in many circumstances.
If it´s so, for what are the special decoding trigger types good for ?
That is only to provide an intelligent filter for the signal (usually in the form of a programmable pattern recognizer) to provide a trigger event. The protocol decoder is a seperate unit which does the actual protocol decoding and should provide time information (start & duration) for each piece of information that is to be displayed so the information from the decode can be aligned properly with the signal on screen. Remember that when triggering on a protocol, the trigger event occurs once the entire condition is met which could be several bytes into the packet so there is absolutely no fixed alignment in time with the trigger position and the start of the message.
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Oh, I hadn't expected such an excited discussion on this! :)
Yes, I think I had CS-time-out on. But again: the decoding is perfectly all right, so to me all boils down to only a screen/optical design issue.
The decoder had recognized the 8-bit groups just fine, evaluated them correctly, but placed the bubbles with the decoded numbers just a bit too much to the right.
--> the E7 should have been printed on the screen just 4 clock impulses to the left, where the E7 originated...
In my opinion it doesn't matter, how the signal capturing had been done, as long as the result is what I had wanted.
Only the results display isn't perfect.
Thanks to you all, cheers,
Anik
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nctnico:
Interesting...
As we started to use the spi signal for "measuring" purpose, we got a rigol scope with decoding function there.
It got the trigger functions too, like the siglent.
So we tried to use this to get a stable signal - The signals were "glitching", sometimes the scope decodes, sometimes not.
We couldn´t manage it with the spi-trigger, at the end we used pulsetrigger with defined holdoff, with more or less success.
Don´t know what we did wrong, that the "special trigger" doesn´t work as expected.
Later on, we bought some lecroy scopes with decoding functions..
They got a function called "link to trigger", when you activate it, the trigger changes to the decoding type, adjusted automatically and you get a rock stable signal/decoding also.
Much better than rigol or siglent, therefore I´d post it here some days before as a "wish":
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3852305/#msg3852305 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3852305/#msg3852305)
But to be honest, I don´t know what the lecroy "do" in this case....
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Rigol and Siglent aren't known for rock solid protocol decoding so it doesn't surprise me that Lecroy does it better.
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They got a function called "link to trigger", when you activate it, the trigger changes to the decoding type, adjusted automatically and you get a rock stable signal/decoding also.
Much better than rigol or siglent, therefore I´d post it here some days before as a "wish":
That function is similar to Siglent's "Copy to trigger" except it is dynamic, real time link. It means that you setup channel/signal mapping and thresholds, lengths and parameters in protocol decode and you don't need to manually copy those parameters in trigger dialog.
Keysight on 3000T (and family) doesn't even have separate settings for duplicate data: you set channels and levels in decodes, and in trigger only data related parameters.
Siglent has "Copy to trigger" and "Copy fromto trigger" options. You setup signals and thresholds in decode and then copy to trigger. Go to trigger and setup data masks... It won't automatically update, but also no need for manual setup. If you happen to twiddle with trigger later and find better settings, you can copy back to decode...
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Siglent has "Copy to trigger" and "copy to trigger options". You setup signals and thresholds in decode and then copy to trigger. Go to trigger and setup data masks... It won't automatically update, but also no need for manual setup. If you happen to twiddle with trigger later and find better settings, you can copy back to decode...
Yep. This is particularly handy when you need to experiment with decoding to determine the right settings to use. You can do an acquisition using a simpler trigger (such as rising edge), stop the scope, play around with the decoding settings until it decodes things properly, then copy the whole thing over to the trigger.
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Could someone who owns SDS2000X+ explain to me how does custom probe attenuation factor work on this scope? Does it support arbitrary values other than ratios that are power of 10 times 1, 2 or 5? In other words, let’s say I have a power rail probe with attenuation ratio of 1.25:1. Would it be possible to specify 1.25X as a custom attenuation factor?
My apologies if this was answered before (this is a long thread), and user manual does not shed much light on this topic. I am considering buying one of these models.
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I can enter a value of 1.25:1 for a channel manually, and it is accepted/saved.
However, I can't check that with an actual probe of that kind.
Cheers, Anik
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I can enter a value of 1.25:1 for a channel manually, and it is accepted/saved.
However, I can't check that with an actual probe of that kind.
Cheers, Anik
Excellent! Thank you
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I can enter a value of 1.25:1 for a channel manually, and it is accepted/saved.
However, I can't check that with an actual probe of that kind.
Cheers, Anik
The attenuation value is just a conversion factor for the incoming voltage seen on the inputs. All it does is change the value shown on the scope.
1.25:1 just means that a 1V signal seen on the input will show as 1.25V on the scope. 10:1, which is commonly used, means that a 0.1V signal seen on the input, which is after attenuation by the probe by a factor of 10, will show as 1V. Which is to say, for 10:1, you have a 1V signal, which is then attenuated by the probe by a factor of 10, which gets you a 0.1V signal as measured at the scope's input, which the scope then applies the 10:1 display conversion to by multiplying the input signal by 10, which gets you 1V shown on the scope.
So you don't need a 1.25x probe to check to see if the 1.25:1 value you entered works. Just directly feed your scope a signal with a known voltage with an attenuation value of 1:1 and 1V/div, then change the attenuation value to 1.25:1, change the V/div back to 1, and see if the scope shows a voltage value equal to the voltage you're feeding it multiplied by 1.25.
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This is now custom probe attenuation looks in SDS5000X and SDS2000X Plus is identical.
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Hi,
I cant find any SCPI commands for the Bode measurement functionality, its not in the programming manual…?
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Some really good news for those that have purchased SDS2104X Plus, hacked it and need/want higher BW autosense probes.
It seems Siglent does want to sell probes and at really hot pricing too on the SP2000 and 3000 10x autosense range.
https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/probes/passive-probes/
Yes I may have helped them to see the obvious. :horse: :-X
I just received the SP2035A I ordered from Siglent. I was quite surprised at how much shorter the probe body is compared to my SP2035 probes. It feels like I'm holding a golf pencil. :-DD
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Some really good news for those that have purchased SDS2104X Plus, hacked it and need/want higher BW autosense probes.
It seems Siglent does want to sell probes and at really hot pricing too on the SP2000 and 3000 10x autosense range.
https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/probes/passive-probes/
Yes I may have helped them to see the obvious. :horse: :-X
I just received the SP2035A I ordered from Siglent. I was quite surprised at how much shorter the probe body is compared to my SP2035 probes. It feels like I'm holding a golf pencil. :-DD
Don't you mean PP215 probes ?
Yes all the SP2000 300 and 350 MHz probes are a compact probe design whereas SP3050A is more a full size probe.
https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/probes/passive-probes/
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Took delivery of an SDS2104X Plus yesterday. Wow - what a nice piece of kit. I liked my previous scope, a Rigol DS2072A but I struggle to read the very small fonts used and I have been thinking of going for 4 channels for a while. I thought I was happy with two channels but now, well, I'm twice as happy :-+
I have a very quiet lab environment and yes the fan is quite obvious and yes it has the ever so slight clicking/ticking sounds. Slightly loosened the torx screws but no difference. Wouldn't say the screws are particularly tight as some have reported elsewhere. One day, I may upgrade the fan but am in no rush - please don't get me wrong, this is not a great problem. To give you an idea the "ticking" sound kind of disappears as I move my head around - the room acoustics are sufficient to make it come and go in slightly different places. - I have plenty of other kit that is louder and having just finished a small 1 hour piece of work with it, I didn't bother to reach to switch it off, and kind of realised that I wasn't noticing it any more. So that's a win.
Gorgeous UI - whether touch, mouse, web or buttons.
For completeness I also recently bought an SDM3045X DMM which is nice but doesn't make me warm all over like the Siglent 'scope and the SA. I think the UI needs a lot of work. I have little doubt that it is a better machine than the low brand recognition VC8145 that it replaces as a main lab bench DMM but, I hate to say it, for a while I think I preferred my trusty VC8145 even though you can tell that its not in the same league as the Siglent quality wise. After a settling in period I am now pretty enthusiastic about the Siglent which just has to be my goto machine in the lab so that's another win. I am a hobby user and this, the 'scope and the recent SSA3000X were rather indulgent luxury purchases. Without EEVBlog and its contributors I am pretty sure none of it would be now sitting on my desk - worth saying, 'cos its true. :clap:
OK, I am straying OT for this particular thread but not sure it warranted starting a new one. Not a lot of point in me reviewing the SDS2104X+ - its been done many times by folk who have done a better job than I would do. Suffice to say, pleased as punch with the machine and having just solved my first little electronics problem with it (a noisy opamp based differential amp that turned out to be picking up radiated SMPS noise) you'd have to fight me to take it away ! :box:
Kind Regards
Eloso
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Some really good news for those that have purchased SDS2104X Plus, hacked it and need/want higher BW autosense probes.
It seems Siglent does want to sell probes and at really hot pricing too on the SP2000 and 3000 10x autosense range.
https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/probes/passive-probes/
Yes I may have helped them to see the obvious. :horse: :-X
I just received the SP2035A I ordered from Siglent. I was quite surprised at how much shorter the probe body is compared to my SP2035 probes. It feels like I'm holding a golf pencil. :-DD
Don't you mean PP215 probes ?
No, the SDS2204X+ I bought came with 4 new SP2035 (1X / 10X) probes in the box.(TEquipment) No idea why but I certainly wasn't going to complain about it. ;D
Maybe Siglent was out of the PP215 probes at the time? :-//
Or maybe they just liked my sparkling personality and decided to give me a free upgrade. :-DD
For what it's worth I paid it forward and bought a bunch more Siglent accessories to make up for it. They got far more money than I would have paid to upgrade to the 350 MHz probes.
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... and need/want higher BW autosense probes.
Does the autosense feature actually work with the SDS2000x plus series?
If yes: Anyone with an idea how this works? (The probe connection consists of only signal + GND??)
Cheers,
Anik
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... and need/want higher BW autosense probes.
Does the autosense feature actually work with the SDS2000x plus series?
If yes: Anyone with an idea how this works? (The probe connection consists of only signal + GND??)
Autosense probes are required with the pogo pin in the BNC to contact with the gold sense ring. Works just fine with the standard pin resistance values in 10x, 100x and 1kx probes.
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Hi
Just playing with my new SDS2104X Plus doing some noise measurements involving removing random low level noise.
Average is not on the Acquisition Menu. Other posts indicate you have to implement it as a Math funcvtion. Am I the only one who thinks this is a real messy way of doing it ? I can only see how to create 2 average traces from F1 and F2 - leaving aside the number of keypresses to just look at the average of a trace, anyone know how do I apply "Average" to all four channels ?
If not possible - Siglent please introduce it as an Acquisition option again. Any others think this is important ?
Thanks
Eloso
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Hi,
anyone know how do I apply "Average" to all four channels ?
As you have already noted, "Average" is only available as a math function.
The siglent got only two mathchannels, so "Average" won´t be avaible for all channels at the same time.
This is really a pity (the mathchannels) and for me the only "big" negative point on the sds2k+ .
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Thanks Martin, At least it confirms my understanding, but yes, it is really the only big disappointment for me too. I am very used to just pressing a single button on the acquire menu to start averaging. On the SDS2104X Plus you have to load up and create a maths function then mess around turning off the original unwanted trace. Then you have the limitation of only having 2 channels you can do this with. Then you can see a delay after every trigger as it does the calculations. You aso have to figure out the vertical scale for the trace on a different menu to that of the source trace. Yuk !! Not what I saw on my previous scope, a Rigol nor on some other brands I've used that don't belong to me.
I often just quickly flick it over to avergage for a quick look then put it back. No more of that with the Siglent.
I'd like to think Siglent could add this to the acquire menu in a firmware release but I suspect if they could, they would have already designed it like that - after all this is how some of their other scopes work, both cheaper and more expensive. Must be a hardware limitation ?
I was fast on my way to being a Siglent FanBoy and have noted that there seem to have been occasions when they have listened to customers. I will drop them a line and explain why I see it as a limitation and the only drawback to choosing their scope and ask them to consider introducing this if they can. To me, I'd rather have a hardware "Average" button on the front panel than "Roll Mode" which seems an odd choice to have in somewhat limited real estate.
Regards
Eloso
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Hi,
Like everything in the world, each thing got two sides...
Average is another function that has been changed from an acquisition mode to a math function. One of the advantages is that we can now combine ERES and Average for the same signal.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2840802/#msg2840802 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2840802/#msg2840802)
Also:
ERES is not an acquisition mode anymore, but a math function (LeCroy send their regards!).
This has many advantages.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2788466/#msg2788466 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2788466/#msg2788466)
Important informations to understand why siglent was going this way with the sds2k+, IMHO.
Martin
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Absolutely - I agree with you 100% Martin. I have no doubt there are those that like the flexibility of the Math Average method. This is what software driven instrumentation is all about. Options and preferences. The two methods are not mutually exclusive (well ok, not for use at the same time perhaps :) ). A menu option for both techniques perhaps keeps everyone happy.
In the meantime, I have been playing with the Math and Measurement functions more and they sure are implemented in a nifty way - especially love the function code generator screen where you assemble a function for one of the two math channels. In my noise measurement case I used function Average(C3-C1) which is pretty cool.
Regards and thanks again for having taken the time and trouble to provide answers.
Eloso
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The only wish could be if you have a 4ch scope that you also have 4 math channels
But maybe the CPU can't cope with that load
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Agree with it, when I got 4 channels, I want 4 math traces.
On my former rigol mso5000 I got it and it tooks a little time to understand why my siglent doesn´t.
It should be no problem to implement 4 traces with an firmwareupdate, but they didn´t to this.
And won´t do this, I guess.
Even the more powerful sds5k do not have 4 mathtraces..
I think they want to keep the performance level high in every case.
Maybe siglent is too careful in this case and shouldn´t worry so much about, I don´t know it.
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Is it really thru that you can not save a waveform/trace to USB storage and then afterwards reload it back into the scope for investigations, eg by math function ?
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Is it really thru that you can not save a waveform/trace to USB storage and then afterwards reload it back into the scope for investigations, eg by math function ?
That's reserved for Matlab or Excel on your computer ;)
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Is it really thru that you can not save a waveform/trace to USB storage and then afterwards reload it back into the scope for investigations, eg by math function ?
You can save/reload REF traces from/to external memory. You can measure them but you cannot do MATH with them.
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Total stupid....an old Lecroy could store traces to both intenal memory and card....reload them and do math on them
It must be that they WILL not make it so...
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I'm not very experienced with modern scopes and generators but could you possibly load the waveform(s) to an awg and then do the math realtime?
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theoretical ..yes...but
AWG is sampled with 125MHz and has 16kpts deep....compared to 2 Gsamples and 200Mpts for the waveform in the scope
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Total stupid....an old Lecroy could store traces to both intenal memory and card....reload them and do math on them
Stupid are the thoughts to get everything you like to have for only 1400 bucks.
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Hello everyone!
Does anyone knowns what are diffrences between hardware versions 02-04 and 02-05 of sds2104x+?
Because of reasons i had to ask supplier to replace oscilloscope and in return i got hw 02-04, and I wonder whenever they released new hw to fix or "optimize".
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Hi,
I cant find any SCPI commands for the Bode measurement functionality, its not in the programming manual…?
If somebody can get me an unpacked firmware update or scope application from there's, I can get you a full list of commands, Mine's on the way so I can't do it myself yet.
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Michael YYZ wrote:
I connected the scope to my network via LAN and I ❤️ how I could not only monitor the scope but also control it via the web browser on my MacBook Pro, iPad Pro, iPhone, or even via my 21” Wacom tablet - all simultaneously!
I have not been able to do so myself for the iPad. I tried:
- iPad 10.2" (A2270), iPad Pro 10.5" (A1709) and iPad Pro 12.9" (A1584)
- Safari, FireFox and Chrome
- iPadOS 15.1 as well as 14.8.1
Yet, whichever combination I try, it never works:
- I never get to see the full screen of the oscilloscope -it's truncated to various degrees at the right side.
- In full-screen mode, the display gets strongly horizontally distorted (compressed)
- In several cases, there is a misalignment between the positions where you touch with the finger and the items shown menu items
While an iPhone 11 Pro (A2215) does show the full screen, it does have the misalignment issue. (And obviously, that screen is way too small to be usable for this, but not complaining here.)
Attaching some screenshots...
Anyone got experiences here, or perhaps a way to get this to work?
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Hi Guys,
Merry Christmas, Everybody!
Slightly of topic here: Can somebody help to identify these pins ?
It's the Logic Analyzer probe, it comes with these high quality connectors.
I would like to make some wires with those on both ends, but do not know what these female headers are.
Thank for any Pointers !
rudi
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They are standard 0.025" terminals as used on Tek grabbers and a multitude of headers.
Try turned IC pins.
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They are standard 0.025" terminals as used on Tek grabbers and a multitude of headers.
Try turned IC pins.
They are NOT the same as turned IC sockets. These are larger.
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They are standard 0.025" terminals as used on Tek grabbers and a multitude of headers.
Try turned IC pins.
They are NOT the same as turned IC sockets. These are larger.
Indeed. From the ones I have seen from Tektronix, these type of sockets have spring loaded tongues inside. A turned IC pin won't spring back but these logic analyser probe sockets are designed for many mating cycles and will also make good contact on thin wires as well. Unfortunately I never managed to find out where to buy them.
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Just had confirmation the SDS2000X Plus $219 MSO promotion will officially end 31 Dec.
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-52.html
Some resellers may continue with it while their stocks last.
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https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-52.html (https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-52.html)
Why are they always redirecting away the first time I open one of these int.siglent.com links?
This redirect to siglenteu.com is in the html:
<meta content="telephone=no" name="format-detection" /> <script>window.location.href='[url]https://www.siglenteu.com/'[/url]</script><link href="/css/global.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" />
If I open the link one more time, I get to see the content because they have removed the redirect:
<meta content="telephone=no" name="format-detection" /> <link href="/css/global.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" />
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https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-52.html (https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-52.html)
Why are they always redirecting away the first time I open one of these int.siglent.com links?
This redirect to siglenteu.com is in the html:
<meta content="telephone=no" name="format-detection" /> <script>window.location.href='[url]https://www.siglenteu.com/'[/url]</script><link href="/css/global.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" />
If I open the link one more time, I get to see the content because they have removed the redirect:
<meta content="telephone=no" name="format-detection" /> <link href="/css/global.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" />
Dunno, works fine here with W10 and Chrome. :-//
Region specific links:
EU:
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e496-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e496-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/)
USA:
https://siglentna.com/news-article/save-up-to-538-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/ (https://siglentna.com/news-article/save-up-to-538-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/)
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Dunno, works fine here with W10 and Chrome. :-//
I see the same behavior in Firefox and Chromium on Linux. Could be region specific? Sounds a bit like they forgot a redirect in there when visiting from Europe.
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Same here, Win10/Edge.
First clicking leads to siglenteu, second to the "real" one. 8)
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Same here, Win10/Edge.
First clicking leads to siglenteu, second to the "real" one. 8)
Same (Win10/Chrome).
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siglenteu.com IS the REAL one in EU..
siglent.eu is NOT
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Thank you, I always keep getting it mixed up.... 8)
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Argh, the logic probes are getting more and more interesting, as I want to do something with old logic circuits.
Welectron got more than enough on stock, while others don´t.
So I could get them inbetween few days.....but the price is killing me:
https://www.welectron.com/Siglent-SPL2016-Logik-Tastkopf (https://www.welectron.com/Siglent-SPL2016-Logik-Tastkopf)
Wish they would make a promo offer for good old siglent customers like me... 8) ::)
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Wish, they would make a promo offer for good old siglent customers like me... 8) ::)
SPL2016 Promo price with a new scope expires 31 Dec. ;)
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Ha-ha......hahaha.. ;)
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Argh, the logic probes are getting more and more interesting, as I want to do something with old logic circuits.
Welectron got more than enough on stock, while others don´t.
So I could get them inbetween few days.....but the price is killing me:
https://www.welectron.com/Siglent-SPL2016-Logik-Tastkopf (https://www.welectron.com/Siglent-SPL2016-Logik-Tastkopf)
Wish they would make a promo offer for good old siglent customers like me... 8) ::)
JOOI, does the price on that SPL2016 happen to be exactly that of an SDS1202X-E? :-DD
The disparity between what, in the UK, 360 quid can buy you from an official Siglent agent, is simply laughable.
That offer Tautech keeps harping on about is no use to current owners unless they liked their SDS2K+ so much they just had to buy a second one. Your best option seems to be in this DIY Logic Analyzer Probe and Pods for Siglent (and LeCroy) scopes topic thread here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/msg3495284/#msg3495284 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/msg3495284/#msg3495284)
If you haven't already read this topic, it's well worth perusing imo. >:D
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Wish, they would make a promo offer for good old siglent customers like me... 8) ::)
SPL2016 Promo price with a new scope expires 31 Dec. ;)
The smiley suggests you're taking the piss and having a laugh. Yet another reason to put 2021 behind me (no excuse to mention this 'promo' offer ever again) ::)
All the best for the new year!
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Wish, they would make a promo offer for good old siglent customers like me... 8) ::)
SPL2016 Promo price with a new scope expires 31 Dec. ;)
The smiley suggests you're taking the piss and having a laugh. Yet another reason to put 2021 behind me (no excuse to mention this 'promo' offer ever again) ::)
All the best for the new year!
Actually hinting to Martin he should buy another so to get in on the SPL2016 promo before it expires.
Your best option seems to be in this DIY Logic Analyzer Probe and Pods for Siglent (and LeCroy) scopes topic thread here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/msg3495284/#msg3495284 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/msg3495284/#msg3495284)
If you haven't already read this topic, it's well worth perusing imo. >:D
Already linked in the first post of this thread. ;)
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Does any one know if in DC mode is possibile to set the scope as when you scale up the volt/div the signal is scaled from the center of the display and not the ground?
Because when I "zoom" into the signal varying the volt/div the display lose the set voltage offset.
This is very annoing.
When It is in AC mode instead It maintain the display centered on the offset point.
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Does any one know if in DC mode is possibile to set the scope as when you scale up the volt/div the signal is scaled from the center of the display and not the ground?
Because when I "zoom" into the signal varying the volt/div the display lose the set voltage offset.
This is very annoing.
When It is in AC mode instead It maintain the display centered on the offset point.
Yes.
Utility>Reference Pos menu.
If you didn't download manual yet, go ahead.
https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/01/SDS2000X-Plus_UserManual_EN01C.pdf (https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/01/SDS2000X-Plus_UserManual_EN01C.pdf)
Page 337
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Does any one know if in DC mode is possibile to set the scope as when you scale up the volt/div the signal is scaled from the center of the display and not the ground?
Because when I "zoom" into the signal varying the volt/div the display lose the set voltage offset.
This is very annoing.
When It is in AC mode instead It maintain the display centered on the offset point.
From the main screen: Utility (button) / Reference Pos / (Vertical) Offset
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Now I have a question regarding the BW upgrades. My SDS2354X+ has too much bandwidth. I get a -3dB point of 540MHz and a step rise time of 654ps on one channel. The BW does drop when I add a channel, a -3dB point of 410MHz. I deliberately didn't install the 500M upgrade and I'm a bit surprised to see it essentially behaving just as if it did have 500M. Does anyone else have one with the 350M that can test it quickly and see what it actually does?
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My SDS2354X+ has too much bandwidth. ... The BW does drop when I add a channel, a -3dB point of 410MHz.
That's a phrase we don't see here many often. :)
BTW, you added ch2? What would happen if you instead added ch3? Should stay the same, right?
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I get a -3dB point of 540MHz and a step rise time of 654ps on one channel. The BW does drop when I add a channel, a -3dB point of 410MHz. I deliberately didn't install the 500M upgrade and I'm a bit surprised to see it essentially behaving just as if it did have 500M. Does anyone else have one with the 350M that can test it quickly and see what it actually does?
I don't have a fast enough function generator to test the -3dB bandwidth of this scope, but I did check the rise time when I got it.
This is in 350MHz mode:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1367144;image)
And this is in 500MHz mode:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1367150;image)
Your rise time measurement resembles my 500MHz one, but the difference isn't all that much between them in any case, for me at least.
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That's a phrase we don't see here many often. :)
BTW, you added ch2? What would happen if you instead added ch3? Should stay the same, right?
Yes, CH2, CH3 doesn't change anything. Too much bandwidth in this case means it still has significant aliasing unless I use the 200M BW limiter. I'm glad they included that.
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New Year's news (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds5000x-oscilloscope-hack-status-dec-2021/msg3912842/#msg3912842).
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This is in 350MHz mode:
And this is in 500MHz mode:
I sure as hell wouldn't want to pay $1399 for the 350M-to-500M upgrade! :wtf:
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Just had confirmation the SDS2000X Plus $219 MSO promotion will officially end 31 Dec.
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-52.html
Some resellers may continue with it while their stocks last.
I took advantage of this. Great deal!
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As stated before, bandwidth is limited to 100MHz in 10bit mode.
This is the actual frequency response up to 1GHz:
Given that response, are all the humps past the first one actually aliased? Would it make sense to always use the 200M BW limiter in conjunction with 10-bit mode? And if all that is true, perhaps it would be sensible for the scope to automatically switch in the 200M BW when 10-bit is selected? Or am I missing something?
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As stated before, bandwidth is limited to 100MHz in 10bit mode.
This is the actual frequency response up to 1GHz:
Given that response, are all the humps past the first one actually aliased?
Huh? I’m not sure whether I understand your question. You’re looking at a spectrum up to 1 GHz that has been calculated out of data sampled at 2 GSa/s. Alias signals within this spectrum could only occur because of input frequencies higher than 1 GHz. Since I’ve created this spectrum using a low distortion signal generator sweeping from 100 kHz up to precisely 1 GHz, there is no such possibility. You just see the typical wobbly stopband response of a simple HiRes or similar FIR filter.
Long story short: The HiRes mode uses all the sample data, there is no decimation hence also no reduction of the effective sample rate. Consequently, the Nyquist frequency does not change and will always be half the sample rate as indicated on the Timebase tab.
Would it make sense to always use the 200M BW limiter in conjunction with 10-bit mode? And if all that is true, perhaps it would be sensible for the scope to automatically switch in the 200M BW when 10-bit is selected? Or am I missing something?
Yes, it does make sense to use the additional 200 MHz bandwidth limit. See the attached screenshots that show the frequency response of the 10 bit mode in full channel mode, i.e. at only 1 GSa/s up to 1 GHz.
First without input bandwidth limit:
SDS2354X Plus_FR_BFull_1GSa_500MHz_10bit
You see the frequency response in the first Nyquist zone up to 500 MHz in orange with only one additional “hump”. Of course, the filter had to be implemented differently for the two different sample rates, in order to provide a similar upper bandwidth limit. At 1 GSa/s it uses just 4 samples, which is enough to calculate a 10 bit result. 8 samples are used at 2 GSa/s, but I suppose the resulting 11 bits are truncated to 10 bits again.
The violet reference trace shows the frequency response from 500 MHz to 1 GHz, from right to left, since this is an aliased signal in the second Nyquist zone. For this I had to deliberately apply a signal above 500 MHz even though the sample rate is only 1 GSa/s.
Now compare this with the second screenshot, where the 200 MHz bandwidth limiter has been activated:
SDS2354X Plus_FR_B200M_1GSa_500MHz_10bit
This is similar to the first screenshot, where the frequency response of the second Nyquist zone is shown in green. Both reference traces for the second Nyquist zone are visible now, so you can easily compare the additional protection against aliasing. At 375 MHz (which is actually 625 MHz!) the aliased signal is about 6 dB lower than without the 200 MHz bandwidth limit.
There is only one reason, why we don’t have (and don’t want) the scope dictating the bandwidth limit – this is the very soft roll-off of a first order gaussian filter. If you compare the two screenshots, then you’ll notice that at the specified bandwidth of 100 MHz the actual attenuation is about 2.34 dB without bandwidth limit, but almost 3.3 dB when the 200 MHz bandwidth limiter is active. Consequently, we are violating the specs with this measure. Of course we still use it anyway, but we always have to be aware of the consequences and we should not complain about nearly 1 dB additional attenuation at the specified bandwidth.
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For all those who want to see a more detailed analysis regarding bandwidth, pulse fidelity and aliasing, I've started a new topic on this and attached an extensive application note.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds2000x-plus-bandwidth-aliasing-application-note/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds2000x-plus-bandwidth-aliasing-application-note/)
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Does any one know if in DC mode is possibile to set the scope as when you scale up the volt/div the signal is scaled from the center of the display and not the ground?
Because when I "zoom" into the signal varying the volt/div the display lose the set voltage offset.
This is very annoing.
When It is in AC mode instead It maintain the display centered on the offset point.
Yes.
Utility>Reference Pos menu.
If you didn't download manual yet, go ahead.
https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/01/SDS2000X-Plus_UserManual_EN01C.pdf (https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/01/SDS2000X-Plus_UserManual_EN01C.pdf)
Page 337
Yes I checked in the manual but did not think It was in the utility menu. Thank you very much.
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Another maybe silly question: I thought that the scope was automatically capable to reconize if the probes are set to 10x or a 100x but It doesn't do It.
Is due to cheap probes they gave in bundle?
Thank you.
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Another maybe silly question: I thought that the scope was automatically capable to reconize if the probes are set to 10x or a 100x but It doesn't do It.
Is due to cheap probes they gave in bundle?
Thank you.
1x and 10x, but the 200mhz probes don't have the pin. I believe the 350mhz ones do, and I believe it works with Tek and Agilent probes that have the pin.
Regards,
Josh
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Another maybe silly question: I thought that the scope was automatically capable to reconize if the probes are set to 10x or a 100x but It doesn't do It.
Is due to cheap probes they gave in bundle?
Well, yes, but I've never seen 1X/10X switchable probes that had that sensor feature. It would be tricky to implement automatically and there's not much point to making it a manual selection. Higher end fixed ratio probes may have readout pins, but not 1X/10X.
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Not 100% sure if my question was answered before, so please excuse if someone came up with it before.
I noticed that there seem to be blank periods at a fixed period in the signal if you set the scope to dot mode. What is the reason for that, or in other words: do you see the same effect on your scopes?
Maybe it is no concidence that this occures at adc frequency, so dead because of reading, but it you look at png1 you'll notice a shorter blanked out period in between.
Is that a problem or working fine?
I set the scope to dot mode with persistance turned on.
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I noticed that there seem to be blank periods at a fixed period in the signal if you set the scope to dot mode. What is the reason for that, or in other words: do you see the same effect on your scopes?
Maybe it is no concidence that this occures at adc frequency, so dead because of reading, but it you look at png1 you'll notice a shorter blanked out period in between.
Is that a problem or working fine?
Your scope is working fine, but it still is an interesting question if you want to know the details of how the digital interpolating trigger system works. If you look at a series of single-shot acquisitions, you will see all of your samples evenly spaced at 500ps. The digital trigger looks at the samples and when the trigger condition is met--in this case rises through a threshold--it commits the pre-trigger samples to the first half of a frame and then finishes that frame with whatever samples come after. It then determines the exact position that the transition occurred between the two sample points using interpolation and then shifts the display of those samples by that amount. This way on a uniform repeating signal, the multiple traces will all overlay each other even though the actual trigger condition was met at a different point between the samples.
The 'blank' areas that you see that have no samples in them are probably just the result of a certain level of granularity in the process that prevents the interpolation algorithm from assigning estimated trigger points at the very extremes of and perhaps right in the center of the sample interval.
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Hello!
Perhaps a silly question, but is there a fine control for the SDS2000X Plus time base setting? In other words, can I set the time base to, say, 70ms/div?
The vertical scale has a fine setting (via a push on the rotary dial) and also allows fine settings via its channel on-screen display and via its 'calculator' input.
But I don't see a similar thing for the time base. The pushbutton in the rotary dial activates zoom, not a fine setting. And in the timebase settings window, I do not seem to be able to enter other values than the 'coarse adjustment' 1-2-5 sequence.
Or am I perhaps overlooking something?
Thanks!
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Hello!
Perhaps a silly question, but is there a fine control for the SDS2000X Plus time base setting? In other words, can I set the time base to, say, 70ms/div?
The vertical scale has a fine setting (via a push on the rotary dial) and also allows fine settings via its channel on-screen display and via its 'calculator' input.
But I don't see a similar thing for the time base. The pushbutton in the rotary dial activates zoom, not a fine setting. And in the timebase settings window, I do not seem to be able to enter other values than the 'coarse adjustment' 1-2-5 sequence.
Or am I perhaps overlooking something?
Thanks!
That's how these work in the normal timebase mode however using Zoom you have 2 timebases.
Touch or click on one or the other to make it active to the timebase control.
The active window is identified by a dotted line around its perimeter.
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That's how these work in the normal timebase mode however using Zoom you have 2 timebases.
Thanks for the answer.
But my question was: is there a fine control for the SDS2000X Plus time base setting? In other words, can I set the time base to, say, 70ms/div?
I cannot find that in one of the time basis in the zoom setting either...
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That's how these work in the normal timebase mode however using Zoom you have 2 timebases.
Thanks for the answer.
But my question was: is there a fine control for the SDS2000X Plus time base setting? In other words, can I set the time base to, say, 70ms/div?
I cannot find that in one of the time basis in the zoom setting either...
Because it's not there. AFAIK none of the Siglent DSO's offer Fine adjustments for timebases.
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Thanks. That is what I was trying to find out: whether it's not there, or where I was overlooking it somehow.
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I asked my local distributor about the SP2035A probes, and was told that the European prices (updated this January) are still not adjusted :--
Waiting to hear back from Siglent about this being an error or if Europe is excluded from the new lower price.
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79$ vs 189€....
Even when importing with taxes etc, it will be remarkable cheaper than buying "here".
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There is some confusion about history/search/navigate usage. I don't find an exact answer in the manual so hopefully someone can enlight me:
Manual states that search "can search for the specific events in a frame". Well does frame imply that I have to select one with history for which search is done? I came to the question while using sequence mode (which is afaik very similar to normal mode only with less dead time between the triggers). So I have sequence enabled and stop the aquisition and go to history. Well, now I can look at every single shot, but if I enable search in addition I wonder if each and every frame is searched for the search-criterion or only one active frame. I mean if I have a large sequence it would be more than only conveniant to have the 'one' frame of that sequence searched without the need to scroll through hundreds of recorded frames.
btw can I overlay the frames after stopping and going to history agin or is that only done in 'live-mode'?
I hope you get my problem and can help.
P.S. Although a different thing. I recently noticed some strange behaviour with zone triggers. They work fine, but with zone triggering and and sequence I had Signal flashing through the disclosed zone from time to time. But only in sequence recording normal work was ok.
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There is some confusion about history/search/navigate usage. I don't find an exact answer in the manual so hopefully someone can enlight me
- Press "Search"
- Touch "One Key Navigate"
- Select Type = "History Frame"
- Select appropriate interval time - the default 1 µs is fine for search
- Enable "Stop On Search Event"
- Now play the event list in any direction and playback will automatically stop as soon as a frame that contains the search condition is displayed. Any hits are highlited by white triangles below the menu bar on the screen
btw can I overlay the frames after stopping and going to history agin or is that only done in 'live-mode'?
You can play back the whole history at maximum speed, i.e. with a short interval time. This will look pretty much like the live signal display did.
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There is some confusion about history/search/navigate usage. I don't find an exact answer in the manual so hopefully someone can enlight me
- Press "Search"
- Touch "One Key Navigate"
- Select Type = "History Frame"
- Select appropriate interval time - the default 1 µs is fine for search
- Enable "Stop On Search Event"
- Now play the event list in any direction and playback will automatically stop as soon as a frame that contains the search condition is displayed. Any hits are highlited by white triangles below the menu bar on the screen
btw can I overlay the frames after stopping and going to history agin or is that only done in 'live-mode'?
You can play back the whole history at maximum speed, i.e. with a short interval time. This will look pretty much like the live signal display did.
To add, you can also enable persistence mode and run trough all the frames for persistence display.
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P.S. Although a different thing. I recently noticed some strange behaviour with zone triggers. They work fine, but with zone triggering and and sequence I had Signal flashing through the disclosed zone from time to time. But only in sequence recording normal work was ok.
Could you please provide more detail of signal and scope settings for this? If there is a problem and manufacturer has easy way to recreate a problem, then they can fix it. Win, win..
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Hi, I am totally puzzled rying to decode a LIN protocol signal on an SDS2000x plus… The signal is a training signal coming from a DSOX1204G scope. That is a varied sequence of 21 re-occurring messages in LIN1.3 format at 19.2kbps. All pretty standard.
I decoded this signal simultaneously on four oscilloscopes. Three of them (RTB2004, DSOX1204G and PicoScope 3405D) show the same messages. In the set of messages, the ID (HEX) is 12, 21 or 30, and the message length is 2, 4 or 8. Attached are screenprints, where I highlighted the same message on all screens (Sample message: ID21 LEN4 DATA D2 34 F5 14).
Now the SDS… AFAIK all my settings are correct. 19.2kbps, threshold, trigger, etc. SDS supports decoding of LIN1.3. Scope says that it successfully decoded the messages. But they are all different from the other scopes!?! They have different ID’s, different packet length, different payload. Nothing in common what I see on the other three scopes ?!?
Anyone an idea? Thanks!
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What trigger setting and threshold are you using?
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What trigger setting and threshold are you using?
I tried various triggering settings on the SDS, including LIN trigger, with the threshold set halfway between bus values. But other trigger settings as well, including EDGE with holdoff, and even free-running (trigger not firing but the scope in Auto mode so it's capturing). But the thing is that the result I am getting for various trigger strategies is always exactly the same, and the packages are shown as successfully decoded results. Triggering does not seem to be a problem here.
The next thing I may try is to have one of the oscilloscopes triggering (on a specific message) and connect this trigger point to all other devices via their external trigger inputs. That way, they all trigger at the same point in time, synchronously, and I might start looking specifically into differences for one and the same message.
I’d like to think that I am making a user error and this is not a bug, but there seem not to be that many settings where I can have gone wrong… But happy is someone can prove me wrong and I get the SDS to decode properly.
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First 2 things I do after getting any protocol on screen are to determine the correct Idle setting and max packet length and then set a correct Edge trigger for the very first edge in a packet and Holdoff a shade longer than the longest packet.
This results in rock solid triggering on every packet however without a serial trigger it can be any packet.
Then if all seems correct select the correct serial trigger and then go looking for specific data.
A couple of screenshots attached with 9.600kB LIN source from Siglents STB-3 test board.
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First 2 things I do after getting any protocol on screen are to determine the correct Idle setting and max packet length and then set a correct Edge trigger for the very first edge in a packet and Holdoff a shade longer than the longest packet.
Thanks. I will try this again and see how my packets look like.
At the same time, when I see the scope presenting a successfully decoded message (not marked as an error) then I assume it should be correct. Or is that a wrong assumption?
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First 2 things I do after getting any protocol on screen are to determine the correct Idle setting and max packet length and then set a correct Edge trigger for the very first edge in a packet and Holdoff a shade longer than the longest packet.
Thanks. I will try this again and see how my packets look like.
At the same time, when I see the scope presenting a successfully decoded message (not marked as an error) then I assume it should be correct. Or is that a wrong assumption?
What prompted me to reply was your screenshot below that has obviously has some wrong settings when we look at the trigger position which is just inside the packet whereas for a serial trigger it should be well inside and triggering on a specific bit.
This one:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1393832)
Plus you have the Run/Stop engaged which to me is always a clue stable triggering has not been successfully obtained.
Notice none of mine show a Stop condition and at the timebase used and mem setting it's showing full mem depth whereas you could limit the memory used and speed up the decodes some however at just 9.6kB LIN this hardly matters.
Have a bit more of a play around with basic settings and get rock solid triggering and the rest should just fall into place.
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Triggering has no influence whatever on protocol decoding! You can even put a DSO in auto mode without setting up a trigger level and just press stop to get the decoded data stable on the screen.
Thinking that protocol decoding needs triggering is a severe misconception:
1) Remember that the protocol decoder has to self-synchronise (=find start / stop condition of the protocol) to whatever is in the incoming bitstream and process it.
2) It is very probable that a user doesn't want to trigger on something in the protocol but trigger on an event in a signal; the protocol decoding should still work in such a situation (assuming that there is enough data to decode).
@Tautech: did you check that you are getting the right data on screen? The fact you get some data on the screen doesn't mean it is decoded properly. When I look in the manual of the STB-3 board I see different data being specified and your screendump also shows not all packets are being decoded.
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@Tautech: did you check that you are getting the right data on screen? The fact you get some data on the screen doesn't mean it is decoded properly. When I look in the manual of the STB-3 board I see different data being specified and your screendump also shows not all packets are being decoded.
Manual for STB-3 board specifies exactly this data:
h 54_5f
h 54_5f
h 45_4e_54_5f
h 53_49_47_4E_54_5f (h53_49_47_4c_54_5f as written is error because it is not SIGLELT, as can be seen in a screen capture below in the manual)
I'm sure you can figure out order and convert hex to ASCII...
Those 4 repeat in a sequence.
And all the data in Tautech screenshots is decoded, except first and last packet that are chopped of...
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@Tautech: did you check that you are getting the right data on screen? The fact you get some data on the screen doesn't mean it is decoded properly. When I look in the manual of the STB-3 board I see different data being specified and your screendump also shows not all packets are being decoded.
Manual for STB-3 board specifies exactly this data:
h 54_5f
h 54_5f
h 45_4e_54_5f
h 53_49_47_4E_54_5f (h53_49_47_4c_54_5f as written is error because it is not SIGLELT, as can be seen in a screen capture below in the manual)
I'm sure you can figure out order and convert hex to ASCII...
Those 4 repeat in a sequence.
And all the data in Tautech screenshots is decoded, except first and last packet that are chopped of...
I was referring to the last screenshot Tautech posted assuming that it is his measurement.
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Hi, I am quite confused about the logic operations of the pattern trigger. Maybe somebody can check my thinking:
AND and NOR work as described in the manual, but why do they trigger on a falling edge?
NAND and OR operate differently from the manual. Notably they not only "trigger on the rising edge of the combined waveform" (which is described as "the result of the logical operation") but also on transitions of a single channel comparison even when the result of the operation remains unchanged.
So transitions 01 -> 11 for OR, and 01->00 for NAND trigger, even though: 0 or 1 = 1 or 1; and: 0 nand 1 = 0 nand 0.
So in summary:
AND triggers on a transition away from 111..1
NOR triggers on a transition away from 000..0
OR triggers when a comparison transitions to 1
NAND triggers when a comparison transitions to 0
As I see it AND and NOR, as well as NAND and OR are redundant/equivalent, if one flips all the comparisons (High and Low).
But what is missing is the possibility to trigger on the transition to 111...0 (resp. 000...0), or when a comparison transitions from 1 (resp. 0).
Is this intentional?
Is there a different way to look at the implementation for it to make (a least a bit more) sense?
Am I missing something?
I feel at least the documentation has to change, but even then it seems to be a very strange implementation.
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Hi, I am quite confused about the logic operations of the pattern trigger. Maybe somebody can check my thinking:
Not me.
Welcome to the forum.
We presume you are on the latest firmware, V1.3.9R6 ?
The manual section is 15.5.10 Pattern Trigger on P116-118.
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/document/SDS2000X-Plus_UserManual_EN01C.pdf
Can smarter logic chaps check sarming's report ?
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Yes, Pattern trigger appears totally broken in FW V1.3.9R6.
I've reported this to Siglent R&D just minutes ago.
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OK, I think I found the solution to the LIN decode problem. Long story short: It’s about whether the LIN signal is idle high or idle low.
- On the RTB and PicoScope, you can change polarity in a setting in the protocol menu.
- The SDOX has no such setting in the protocol menu
and defaults to idle HIGH, but you can invert the selected channel. Fair enough. - The SDS has no such setting in the protocol menu and defaults to idle LOW, but you can invert the selected channel. Fair enough.
So far so good…. Now, where is the issue?
Well, the RTB, DSOX or PicoScope simply show no decoded signal when the polarity setting is wrong and decode is impossible. BUT THE SDS SHOWS A COMPLETELY WRONG DECODED SIGNAL WHEN POLARITY IS WRONG AND SHOWS IT AS IF IT’S A GOOD SIGNAL WITH NO ERRORS!
Once you are aware polarity is wrong (by instance by noticing different results on three other devices ;-), you change channel polarity, re-do the threshold, and it works properly. Now I figured that out, I am able to decode all my busses correctly. But the SDS behaviour is troublesome. When the user thinks a proper signal is decoded, it may be actually totally wrong. I consider this to be a bug. If someone wants to report to Siglent, be my guest...
PS. Like nctnico noted, successful decode is totally independent of trigger. Even works perfectly on free run (auto trigger) when trigger is not configured at all.
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I was referring to the last screenshot Tautech posted assuming that it is his measurement.
It's not Tautech's measurement. It's RBBVNL9's, the last image in his message here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3971435/#msg3971435 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3971435/#msg3971435)
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OK, I think I found the solution to the LIN decode problem. Long story short: It’s about whether the LIN signal is idle high or idle low.
- On the RTB and PicoScope, you can change polarity in a setting in the protocol menu.
- The SDOX has no such setting in the protocol menu and defaults to idle HIGH, but you can invert the selected channel. Fair enough.
- The SDS has no such setting in the protocol menu and defaults to idle LOW, but you can invert the selected channel. Fair enough.
So far so good…. Now, where is the issue?
Well, the RTB, DSOX or PicoScope simply show no decoded signal when the polarity setting is wrong and decode is impossible. BUT THE SDS SHOWS A COMPLETELY WRONG DECODED SIGNAL WHEN POLARITY IS WRONG AND SHOWS IT AS IF IT’S A GOOD SIGNAL WITH NO ERRORS!
Once you are aware polarity is wrong (by instance by noticing different results on three other devices ;-), you change channel polarity, re-do the threshold, and it works properly. Now I figured that out, I am able to decode all my busses correctly. But the SDS behaviour is troublesome. When the user thinks a proper signal is decoded, it may be actually totally wrong. I consider this to be a bug. If someone wants to report to Siglent, be my guest...
PS. Like nctnico noted, successful decode is totally independent of trigger. Even works perfectly on free run (auto trigger) when trigger is not configured at all.
First thing first I have Keysight and Picoscope and a SDS6000 (no 2000 sorry, but decoder codebase should be same).
LIN signal is active LOW. That is standard. It means it sits at positive voltage on idle and gets pulled down to ground when active (logical 1). If you ever connect LIN bus to a scope and see signal going negative something is mighty wrong.
On my Keysight 3000T I didn't have to invert anything in decoder nor does it have that option AFIK. On Picoscope also I didn't invert anything. Picoscope does have that option in decoder, I guess so you can probe before inverting driver, but even than signal wouldn't go negative but would logically invert low/high levels.
And all three scopes decoded just fine.
How on earth did you achieve polarity on SDS2000X+ to be wrong in a first place? All these scopes have common ground, how did you connect it the wrong way?
I never even tried decoding negative going LIN on any scope before. I did check now and Siglent does seem to get confused (same as I am by negative going LIN signal, I guess :-). But that is a fringe case.
Could you please elaborate more on this?
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Another maybe silly question: I thought that the scope was automatically capable to reconize if the probes are set to 10x or a 100x but It doesn't do It.
Is due to cheap probes they gave in bundle?
Well, yes, but I've never seen 1X/10X switchable probes that had that sensor feature. It would be tricky to implement automatically and there's not much point to making it a manual selection. Higher end fixed ratio probes may have readout pins, but not 1X/10X.
Lots of 1X/10X probes have that feature. I have a few probes from probemaster.com that have 1X/R/10X switching and the readout pin. Mine are from the 4900 series that I use with the SDS2KP. You can flip the switch on the probe and the scope detects the change.
Thanks,
Josh
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Lots of 1X/10X probes have that feature. I have a few probes from probemaster.com that have 1X/R/10X switching and the readout pin. Mine are from the 4900 series that I use with the SDS2KP. You can flip the switch on the probe and the scope detects the change.
Thanks,
Josh
+1 for Probemaster. I have some 4900 series probes, but didn't know they had switchable and readout in the same unit. I'm not sure how they do that--what does the probe cable look like?
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@2N3055,
Could you please elaborate more on this?
Firstly, several scope makers (R&S, Picoscope, haven’t checked others) offer a polarity setting for LIN serial decoders. So they think this makes sense, that there are uses case in which this is useful.
LIN signal is active LOW. That is standard. It means it sits at positive voltage on idle and gets pulled down to ground when active (logical 1).
Yes, that is also my understanding. Unfortunately, since the LIN standard is maintained by ISO you need to pay to get access to that documentation. In the ST LIN chip documentation (https://www.st.com/resource/en/application_note/an3055-getting-started-with-stm8a-lin-package-stswstm8alin-stmicroelectronics.pdf) I read: “Two logical levels are defined on the LIN bus physical line – the recessive level and the dominant level. The recessive logical level corresponds to a high voltage level on the LIN bus line (measured against the ground potential, nominal value = 12 V). The dominant logical level corresponds to a low voltage level on the LIN bus line (nominal value = 0 V). The dominant logical level has higher priority. This means that when at least one node in the LIN cluster sends the dominant level, the resulting level on the LIN bus line is the dominant level.” In short, we seem to be in agreement.
I do reckon that the terminology used on devices, in manuals and in discussions regarding LIN polarity is somewhat confusing. Some talk of ‘Idle High” or “Idle Low”, some talk of high or low “signals”, some talk of ‘negative going LIN’. I also read somewhere “The idle state is the recessive state and corresponds to a logic 1.” (so this source uses another definition of what logic 1 is). Also the fact that a packet starts with a relatively long break period that is opposite to the idle signal may confuse people. Sometimes I started to feel confused too. Hope I made no mistakes but will get to that.
How on earth did you achieve polarity on SDS2000X+ to be wrong in a first place? All these scopes have common ground, how did you connect it the wrong way?
Two answers.
First, how did I make the signal? As I described in the previous mail, I took a Keysight DSOX1204G, powered it up, and activated the LIN training signal ;-)
Second, you seem to assume that the signal I sent into the SDS was wrong. But if you look at the screenprints in my original mail, you see that all the scope signals, including that on the SDS, are exactly like the correct LIN bus you describe above. Still, the SDS decoded bus was wrong.
I want to dig a bit deeper into what the different scopes expect as ‘default’, and, relatedly, when polarity may need to be changed. Perhaps in the testing and confusion, I made an error there. If I find some time this weekend, I will test with a much easier LIN signal (one that simply sends the same packets every time, so see always the same message on every device).
I did check now and Siglent does seem to get confused (same as I am by negative going LIN signal, I guess :-). But that is a fringe case.
Seems that we then agree on my main conclusion: if the signal polarity is wrong (for whatever reason that might be), the SDS can show LIN messages as if they were correctly decoded, even if they are actually incorrect.
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Well, the RTB, DSOX or PicoScope simply show no decoded signal when the polarity setting is wrong and decode is impossible. BUT THE SDS SHOWS A COMPLETELY WRONG DECODED SIGNAL WHEN POLARITY IS WRONG AND SHOWS IT AS IF IT’S A GOOD SIGNAL WITH NO ERRORS!
Once you are aware polarity is wrong (by instance by noticing different results on three other devices ;-), you change channel polarity, re-do the threshold, and it works properly. Now I figured that out, I am able to decode all my busses correctly. But the SDS behaviour is troublesome. When the user thinks a proper signal is decoded, it may be actually totally wrong. I consider this to be a bug. If someone wants to report to Siglent, be my guest...
I think it would be nice to see the interpreted data, but highlight (in red?) that the checksum is wrong.
There is a bug thread here where you can post your findings: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/)
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I think it would be nice to see the interpreted data, but highlight (in red?) that the checksum is wrong.
Agree. As long as the decoder would show there is an error, then the user would be aware that the shown decoded info may not be trustable.
But as far as I can see now, if the decoder goes wrong (because of wrong polarity, whatever the reason of that is), no error is shown in the telegram screen nor in the table view. No header parity error, synchronisation/sync byte error, CRC checksum error... It is just displayed as if it were a good message.
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It is just displayed as if it were a good message.
First, it would be good when you post it in the bug thread.
Second, what does the other scopes do in this case ? Showing nothing or a failure ?
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First, it would be good when you post it in the bug thread.
Will do. But I first want to do some more testing.
Second, what does the other scopes do in this case ? Showing nothing or a failure ?
The attached screenprints shows three scopes that are offered the same LIN signal with the wrong polarity. (In all three cases I made the polarity wrong in the channel setting, so all three show the same trace).
- The RTB shows it is attempting to decode, see unusually long break fields (because of reversed polarity this are in reality the idle times) and shows data error in its table view. No attempt to show a decoded message.
- The DSOX also shows it is attempting to decode. Shows "THM" (manual says: "If the header exceeds the length specified in the standard, THM will appear red.") No attempt to show a decoded message.
- The SDS, as mentioned before, is showing as if it successfully decoded a message, and shows no errors. But the content is actually garbage: packet ID, data length and payload are not existing in the input signal.
The "shows no errors" on the SDS is something with begs some further investigation. Will do that in a separate post to prevent confusion.
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My tests are bringing me to another question. Related, but not about 'reverse polarity'.
So, I take a 'good polarity' LIN 2.0 9.6kbps signal. I decode it on the three scopes, and I get, as it should, exactly the three same messages. Message ID, packet length, payload, it is all identical for this set of four packets. (those that convert HEX into ASCII will see where this signal came from ;-)
Now, intentional or not, my LIN signal has various errors in it. And I want to investigate how the three oscilloscopes provide error warnings. The results are attached as three screenprints.
- The RTB, when set to LIN2.x, sees a checksum error in the first packet, a parity error and checksum in the second, and a sync and checksum error in the third package, and a checksum error in the fourth. New screenprint identified as NEW.
- The DSOX when set to LIN2.x, sees a checksum error in the first packet, a parity error and checksum error in the second, and a sync error in the third package, plus a checksum error in the fourth packet.
- The PicoScope, for which no LIN version can be selected, also see various errors (see screenshot for details) New screenprint identified as NEW.
Life is not perfect, they do not see precisely the same errors (partly because the DSOX and PicoScope can show multiple errors in a single packet). But all the scopes clearly show there are a number of errors going on here.
The RTB and DSOX are in full agreement. The PicoScope picks up several but not all errors.
But the SDS shows... no errors at all!?!
For instance, the RTB, DSOX and PicoScope all agree that the F03 checksum on the first package is wrong. But the SDS is showing this checksum as if its fine...
Mmm. Is it perhaps the case that the SDS is simply not showing any serial decode errors (LIN? other protocols?) at all in its telegram or list screen?
Trying to see whether the SDS is aware of any of these errors, I tried to find out by serial triggering on them. Results are in three additional screenprints. Interestingly,
- Additional screenprint 1 shows that via serial trigger, shows the SDS knows that packet 1 has a checksum error (unfortunately you need to identify the frame ID and message length first to find out, but it is found).
- Additional screenprint 2 shows that via serial trigger, the SDS knows that packet 2 indeed has a parity error
- Additional screenprint 3 shows that via serial trigger, the SDS knows that packet 3 indeed has a sync error
So, the SDS knows these errors are there (because it can trigger on them), but it is not showing these errors in the regular screen.
What do others think? Is there any way to see these errors (in the telegram or list field) which I overlook? Is this a bug? Is this a design choice (if yes, a choice that does not make me happy - I want to see that a checksum is wrong, that an error occurs).
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Hi PeDre,
I had already looked into the CAN protocol versions and their implications on my observations - but not enough because I found new things after being promoted by you. And you properly deduced this is the LIN signal coming from the RTB ;-)
But I guess the LIN signal from the RTB2000 is version 1
The protocol version of this LIN signal is not documented. But I think it's LIN2.x, not LIN 1.3. Why I think so? If I try to decode it as LIN1.3 on the DSOX it fails altogether. When I decode it as LIN2.x on the DSOX it all works.
If you set to version 2 in the trigger setup, you will also get checksum errors in the 4th packet.
True. And I now also see the RTB (too) can show multiple errors for a single packet. Nice. So the DSOX and RTB are in total agreement about all detected errors. Wil update my previous post to reflect that.
The DSOX and PicoScope will detect the checksum error correctly if they use LIN version 2
For the DSOX that is true and was already the case in the earlier screenprint.
For the PicoScope it's a bit more complex (and I also updated the screenprint in my previous post, I made the display slightly too short and the rightmost value was missing as the decoder was instructed to decode the Current Buffer only). Anyway, the bottom line is that one cannot select the LIN protocol version for the PicoScope decoder (correct me if I am wrong). The PicoScope sees the errors in the first two packets but not in the third and fourth.
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My 1-week old SDS2104X Plus no longer works. It hangs while booting (see attached picture). Any idea how to troubleshoot it, before calling Siglent on Monday?
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My 1-week old SDS2104X Plus no longer works. It hangs while booting (see attached picture). Any idea how to troubleshoot it, before calling Siglent on Monday?
Sure, flick us a PM with your email...... ve have the tools !
Boot freezes are very rare in 2kX+, so rare that only one other that I know of has happened and Siglent had to formulate the recovery package for us to help another member here.
They asked that the SN# of any boot freeze unit be sent to them so to analyze if there was a batch of units that had this problem.
I sure like it when they are so focused on heading off problems. :-+
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First, it would be good when you post it in the bug thread.
Having done some more testing, I now reported the issue, as well described and documented as I could, in the Siglent SDS2000X Plus - Bugs / Missing Features / Feature Requests thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/550/).
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Sure, flick us a PM with your email...... ve have the tools !
Thank you. I've sent the PM.
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Sure, flick us a PM with your email...... ve have the tools !
Thank you. I've sent the PM.
:)
You have mail !
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Sure, flick us a PM with your email...... ve have the tools !
Thank you. I've sent the PM.
:)
You have mail !
Thank you tautech! The steps helped. I managed to recover after several attempts, and I think I figured out the root cause.
Setting channel units to A and setting custom probe attenuation ratio (to 0.025747:1, AFAIR) caused the freeze after reboot. I was using the latest firmware V1.3.9R6.
Resetting C1 channel settings back to V and 1:1 resolved the issue.
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I don't need another scope but this Siglent has me intrigued, it does seems like a very capable scope for the money.
I know this is frivolous but the front panel design puts me off somewhat, the knobs in particular remind me of the muppets show (http://shorturl.at/pwzI1)!
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1397216)
The incoming 12-bitter SDS2000X HD (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-hd-12bit-(published-for-chinese-domestic-market-only)/) however looks great, maybe I'll have to spend twice the money and get that instead. :-DD
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKFBzgR_TBk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKFBzgR_TBk)
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I asked my local distributor about the SP2035A probes, and was told that the European prices (updated this January) are still not adjusted :--
Waiting to hear back from Siglent about this being an error or if Europe is excluded from the new lower price.
Good news :) Turns out that Siglent Europe forgot to update the price, so we get the new price as well.
No stock though, so don't know when I'll get hold of any.
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I did some further experiments with the scope during the weekend. I build a step generator and did some measurements on it. I noticed that interpolation sinc and x give significantly different results in terms of waveform jitter. (or to say what looks like waveform jitter).
I used to have the oscilloscope set to x-interpolation in the past with vectors on to avoid possible artifacts.
I have attached screenshots showing the results. Maybe someone can explain to me why x-interpolation with vectors on suggests more serious jitter than the other settings. What would be your fevorite setting and what measurement in my attachment should I trust the most?
Thanks a lot in advance.
P.S.
I've just noticed that I obviously named sinc dots/lines wrong.
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Note.
There is NO any interpolation when display mode is Dots!
Other words.
What ever interpolation you have selected, x or Sinc it do not interpolate at all when display mode is Dots. Because there is only Dots, true sampled dots. How it and what it then interpolate. Even if it interpolate there is no place where put this interpolation result as long as user have selected display only ADC sampled dots.
Siglent display, in Dots display mode, only true ADC samples without any interpolated "fake" dots between true Dots, just for avoid fooling user)
If you think what is interpolation, is it really not clear why it looks different when use x or Sinc or raw dots. If it do not looks like it is example in your images then it is really broken.
With dots mode it need note of course that this is DPO (aka SPO) not conventional old school DSO. If you do not want randomly interleaved dots in dots mode, turn it working like coinventional DSO. Just turn Acquisition from default Fast to Slow. Then it just acquire one sample buffer for one sequential TFT frame so you do not see randomly interleaved samples in one TFT frame (depending singal and scope other settings)
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First thanks for the reply.
What happens when you do a screenshot to usb - if linear/dot and sinc/dot is supposed to be the same the signals and risetimes should aswell, correct?
I do not see any 'blurred' edge in dot mode so I thought that, maybe, linear interpolation shows the jitter by accident.
On the other hand rise-time between the two dot modes are different (without any blurs). I have really no idea what mode to trust the most.
I think this behaviour does not show on your machines?
Any ideas for further tests?
I've just checked: If I turn on dots there is a change in Waveform when I select between 'x' and 'Sinc'. That does not happen when in HiRes Mode but if in 8 bit it happens independant of bandwith.
'x' leads to slightly lower risetime.
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First thanks for the reply.
What happens when you do a screenshot to usb - if linear/dot and sinc/dot is supposed to be the same the signals and risetimes should aswell, correct?
I do not see any 'blurred' edge in dot mode so I thought that, maybe, linear interpolation shows the jitter by accident.
On the other hand rise-time between the two dot modes are different (without any blurs). I have really no idea what mode to trust the most.
I think this behaviour does not show on your machines?
Any ideas for further tests?
Have a look at a Single capture to see a single line of sample points instead of the sum of wfps overlays.
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That's really basic stuff.
At 1 ns/div, we're looking at just 20 samples over the entire screen width. Of course, it makes a big difference which interpolation/reconstruction method is used, such as:
- x = linear interpolation, an early, primitive method, that only works reasonably well up to 1/10 of the sample rate. That would be 200 MHz @ 2 GSa/s, corresponding to some 1.75 ns rise time. No wonder we see a bit of a fuzzyness at a measured 1 ns rise time. X interpolation might still be the preferred method for displaying digital signals (pulses), as it avoids Gibbs pehenomenon. But again, only within the speed limits given above.
- sin(x)/x = sinc, this is the true reconstruction of the sampled signal and the prerequisite to make the sample theorem work. Now the highest signal frequency can be up to 1/2.5 of the sample rate, i.e. 800 MHz @ 2 GSa/s and we still get perfectly valid representations of the input signal. If this condition is violated, the reconstruction result might look funny and artificial.
- Dots mode. there is neither interpolation nor reconstruction, hence we always see the true signal - as long as the trigger data is valid, i.e. not disturbed because of aliasing. Thanks to the high trigger rate, we get a lot of acquisitions overlaid in one screen update, so we mostly see a near contiguous line even in dots display mode, as long as we are in Run. In Stop mode (or in History) we do not see more than the 20 dots per screen at 1 ns/div, obviously.
Sometimes folks need to be reminded that the highest signal frequency does not mean just the fundamental frequency. A square wave might have a fundamental frequency of only 10 MHz, but if the rise time is 1 ns, then we have significant signal content up to at least 600 MHz. We would use a DSO with at least 1 GHz bandwidth to analyze such signals.
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there is neither interpolation nor reconstruction, hence we always see the true signal - as long as the trigger data is valid, i.e. not disturbed because of aliasing.
Performa01, ohhh so logical. Re-thinking what is going on is a good idea and your post made me. Thanks for that. :-+ (I must admit I should not have struggled with these information)
However I still don't get why there is a difference in dot-mode when you switch between sinc and x. Dot mode is Dot mode. Am I still missing something? Same signal, same Trigger settings, slightly different dotted waveform. I should (or to say will) further play with that.
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However I still don't get why there is a difference in dot-mode when you switch between sinc and x.
Just a guess: The trigger still needs interpolation in order to determine the fractional sample position of the trigger point. I wonder whether it also honors the selected interpolation method. Possibly it does? :-//
EDIT:The determined trigger position on the time axis affects of course how the points of the traces are stitched together.
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That's really basic stuff.
At 1 ns/div, we're looking at just 20 samples over the entire screen width. Of course, it makes a big difference which interpolation/reconstruction method is used, such as:
- x = linear interpolation, an early, primitive method, that only works reasonably well up to 1/10 of the sample rate. That would be 200 MHz @ 2 GSa/s, corresponding to some 1.75 ns rise time. No wonder we see a bit of a fuzzyness at a measured 1 ns rise time. X interpolation might still be the preferred method for displaying digital signals (pulses), as it avoids Gibbs pehenomenon. But again, only within the speed limits given above.
- sin(x)/x = sinc, this is the true reconstruction of the sampled signal and the prerequisite to make the sample theorem work. Now the highest signal frequency can be up to 1/2.5 of the sample rate, i.e. 800 MHz @ 2 GSa/s and we still get perfectly valid representations of the input signal. If this condition is violated, the reconstruction result might look funny and artificial.
- Dots mode. there is neither interpolation nor reconstruction, hence we always see the true signal - as long as the trigger data is valid, i.e. not disturbed because of aliasing. Thanks to the high trigger rate, we get a lot of acquisitions overlaid in one screen update, so we mostly see a near contiguous line even in dots display mode, as long as we are in Run. In Stop mode (or in History) we do not see more than the 20 dots per screen at 1 ns/div, obviously.
Sometimes folks need to be reminded that the highest signal frequency does not mean just the fundamental frequency. A square wave might have a fundamental frequency of only 10 MHz, but if the rise time is 1 ns, then we have significant signal content up to at least 600 MHz. We would use a DSO with at least 1 GHz bandwidth to analyze such signals.
Some small addendums to Performa01 very exellent text.
x interpolation.
Even it is a primitive method, but it is also useful in some rare cases, at least temporarily. The example checks if the pulse overshoot / pre-shoot is based on the "fake" crossings produced by Sinc as "Gibb's ears". In some circumstances, when watching digital “1-0” type signals, it may even be nice to use x-interpolation so you don’t have to look at Gibb’s ears, they are sometimes confusing. (of course nowadays the scopes are so fast that Dots mode can be used without interpolation ... but sometimes there are so few samples that it is not easy to see visually ... so in these cases you can also try to check by swapping interpolation method - - what's best depends so much on the signal under test and what details we are interested)
Thanks to the high trigger rate, we get a lot of acquisitions overlaid in one screen update, so we mostly see a near contiguous line even in dots display mode, as long as we are in Run
. ...if we use oscilloscope in fast acquisition mode (what is default).
But some times we do not perhaps want acquisitions overlaid in one updated TFT frame when we are watching signal on screen. In some rare cases we perhaps want work as with convential old school DSO. Trig-capture-display...Trig-capture-display.... and so on, so we get displayed continuously "single shots" as long as scope is running mode and there is trig events.
This mode can find in Acquisition menu. There is selection Fast/Slow. Slow mode emulate this old school DSO (max 1wfm/1display update).
Naturally in Siglent scopes what have always bacround running history buffer we can stop scope and when we see overlaid many wfm's we can view each individual overlaid wfm on the screen separately and even time stamped. They are in the history buffer, each separately.
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However I still don't get why there is a difference in dot-mode when you switch between sinc and x. Dot mode is Dot mode. Am I still missing something? Same signal, same Trigger settings, slightly different dotted waveform. I should (or to say will) further play with that.
At short time bases, where the screen cannot be filled with samples by just the genuine sample rate, i.e. less than some 1000 samples per record (below 50 ns/div @ 2 GSa/s), math and automatic measurements still need complete data without gaps. These data are constructed in a secondary screen buffer, using the interpolation method selected by the user.
Just for completeness: the choice of interpolation x versus reconstruction Sinc is only effective below 50 ns/div. It has absolutely no effect at slower timebase settings.
While the screen only shows the original samples as dots, the secondary buffer for math and measurements (and reference traces) is still updated in the background. This buffer only exists for fast time bases. For the slower ones, math and measurements gather the data directly from the sample buffer. The special handling also has the benefit of increasing the resolution of time measurements at these faster timebases - after all you can measure single digit picoseconds at 1 ns/div, even though the sample period is only 500 ps @ 2 GSa/s.
The update of this buffer takes some processing time. Calculation of linear interpolation (x) is faster than a sin(x)/x filter. The difference that you see in dots mode is because of the different update speed coming from a different trigger rate. The faster the update, the thicker and more solid the trace.
I've checked the situation with a 10 MHz square wave signal at 1 ns/div and 2 GSa/s and measured the waveform update rates:
Linear = X: 33.5 kHz
Sinc = sin(x)/x: 2.8 kHz
That's quite a difference in speed and makes for the huge difference in visual appearance in dots mode.
The difference will be much less at slower timebases such as 10 ns/div:
Linear = X: 63 kHz
Sinc = sin(x)/x: 14 kHz
And as mentioned before, the difference will disappear at 50 ns/div and slower, example 50 ns/div:
Linear = X: 120 kHz
Sinc = sin(x)/x: 120 kHz
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However I still don't get why there is a difference in dot-mode when you switch between sinc and x.
Just a guess: The trigger still needs interpolation in order to determine the fractional sample position of the trigger point. I wonder whether it also honors the selected interpolation method. Possibly it does? :-//
EDIT:The determined trigger position on the time axis affects of course how the points of the traces are stitched together.
Both interpolations you see on the screen are totally and fully post processed in Siglent SPO (aka DPO) scopes.
Digital trigger engine is before sample memory just after ADC and full HW samplerate. Example if user see 10kSa/s on screen still trigger engine get example 1GSa/s full stream available before decimation.
You can capture using example dots mode... stop scope and after then turn Sinc or x and switch between these and you can see trigger position stay perfectly enough in right place between real sample dots independent of which one post processed interpolation you select.
I am not sure what interpolation trigger engine is using but it must be in trigger engine because it need work always, independent of our setting for display waveform. Somehow I do not believe it change this interpolation method depending what user have selected for post process interpolation. I can guess what it is but better to shut up for avoid possible "alternative truth" spreading.
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:clap:
Thank you guys!
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Digital trigger engine is before sample memory just after ADC and full HW samplerate.
math and automatic measurements still need complete data without gaps. These data are constructed in a secondary screen buffer, using the interpolation method selected by the user.
I took a measurement with dots. Went to history and selected a frame. The scope remained in stop-mode all the time. So there is no data being updated. The ONLY parameter I changed was x/sinc.
1: dots are a direct representation of the sample values.
2: trigger depends on interpolation in some way. I agree that that won't be a good idea, but if it should happen, the raw data should only move in time. Remember the scope already sampled; they should not move at all if triggering was done before sampling.
3:if interpolation method has its impact on mathematics and measurements only, the raw data in a frame should not move, because everything that happens with them is, well, visualization.
I think something is unlikely / does not make sense: why would the raw dots of a single frame change their position on screen when the scope is frozen and only that frame is shown? I totally agree with the explanations and assuumptions, but.... something is unlogical for me.
Is here someone from Siglent who could elaborate first hand? I hope I did not introduce myself as too dumb to answer :)
edit: I modified to hopefully better describe my point
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Is here someone from Siglent who could elaborate first hand?
Angus, you are already discussing this with some of Siglent's excellent beta testers.
I can't say who they are. :-X
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2: trigger depends on interpolation in some way.
On the one hand, the trigger needs to be calculated in real-time, during acquisition (at least coarsely). OTOH I would not rule out that the fractional sample position still gets fine-adjusted in the postprocessing, honoring the interpolation type then.
I find it interesting, though, that the trigger point appears to be approx. linearly interpolated between the neighbor points in the 2nd image (labeled sinc.png), while it does not lie on the straight line beteen the neighbor points in the x.png image. Subjectively I'd rather expected the opposite.
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Digital trigger engine is before sample memory just after ADC and full HW samplerate.
math and automatic measurements still need complete data without gaps. These data are constructed in a secondary screen buffer, using the interpolation method selected by the user.
I took a measurement with dots. Went to history and selected a frame. The scope remained in stop-mode all the time. So there is no data being updated. The ONLY parameter I changed was x/sinc.
1: dots are a direct representation of the sample values.
2: trigger depends on interpolation in some way. I agree that that won't be a good idea, but if it should happen, the raw data should only move in time. Remember the scope already sampled; they should not move at all if triggering was done before sampling.
3:if interpolation method has its impact on mathematics and measurements only, the raw data in a frame should not move, because everything that happens with them is, well, visualization.
I think something is unlikely / does not make sense: why would the raw dots of a single frame change their position on screen when the scope is frozen and only that frame is shown? I totally agree with the explanations and assuumptions, but.... something is unlogical for me.
Is here someone from Siglent who could elaborate first hand? I hope I did not introduce myself as too dumb to answer :)
edit: I modified to hopefully better describe my point
Those two images don't show same sample records. Just look at first 4 points from the left and you will see they don't have same vertical distribution. What happened there I don't know. But those screens are not showing same sample buffer.
A suggestion: set trigger level at exactly 0V. That makes it easier to verify trigger point visually. You get 3 clear points..
1. dots are physical sample point. Correct.
2. Trigger is fully digital. It happens on sampled data. Internal timebase resolution is much higher than 500ps from sampling. ONce trigger event is detected, trigger engine estimates where exactly the signal passed through trigger point and saves that data with that sample buffer. It saves points as they are and save estimated horizontal microposition data. Display engine use it to align everything nicely. Nothing gets changed from original points in sample buffer.
3. I tried on SDS6000 and nothing moves in dot mode. Not a dot. I cannot try 2000X+, I don't have one, sorry. They should function in a very similar fashion, they are based on a same platform.
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Nothing gets changed from original points in sample buffer.
Now that I learned that once dot-mode is active we only see raw sample data right from ADC output on screen (and some additional parallel processing for calculations under the hood) that is clear to me.
Even more confusing to see the screen change. ?
SDS6k and SDS2k+ are based on same platform you say? You mean analog frontend and general processing flow? I studied the manual and noticed that at least the firmware seems to be slightly different. e.g. they have located signal averaging in aquisition (which I'd prefer to the hidden math because it is more common), memory configuration looks slightly different.
So could it be that firmware plays a role?
If some sds2k+ owner would be so kind to verify what I encoutered? Is it exclusive to my unit?
Not that this behaviour plays a major role in every day use. It is still surprising and I'd like to understand if I did not get it or if there is -something-.
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Nothing gets changed from original points in sample buffer.
Now that I learned that once dot-mode is active we only see raw sample data right from ADC output on screen (and some additional parallel processing for calculations under the hood) that is clear to me.
Even more confusing to see the screen change. ?
SDS6k and SDS2k+ are based on same platform you say? You mean analog frontend and general processing flow? I studied the manual and noticed that at least the firmware seems to be slightly different. e.g. they have located signal averaging in aquisition (which I'd prefer to the hidden math because it is more common), memory configuration looks slightly different.
So could it be that firmware plays a role?
If some sds2k+ owner would be so kind to verify what I encoutered? Is it exclusive to my unit?
Not that this behaviour plays a major role in every day use. It is still surprising and I'd like to understand if I did not get it or if there is -something-.
No not the analog frontend. And they do have different firmware and hardware details even in digital parts. But general sampling/triggering architecture, how samples flow through the system..
As I said, those two screens you have shown in last post do not show same acquisition buffer. Points are different.
On my 6000, I take single acquisition, set it in a dot mode and if I flip X/sinc nothing happens.
Same as if I go to history buffers and pick one from there...
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@Angus
Did you note what @2N3055 write also in second to last message as also in last now (I think we write around same time).
I recommend that before more hassle and before go any more forward you do one very simple thing.
We need to rule out things that are now uncertain about what is actually in the pictures presented.
Like the 2N3055 in his second to last message, I think the images do not display same (1) individual "horizontal sweep" aka acquisition or capturte when we talk digital scopes.
(1)(I have analyzed these every dots all movements and least it somehow seems impossible they are from one same single shot)
(is it possible that accidentally when you have operated with history buffer then frame (segment) number have not changed, it may happen accidentally easy and your image do not display this segment number.)
So, please, do new test.
8 bit mode.
Signal and tdiv etc as previously in your last two images.
Display Mode Dots and Interpolation setup what ever but so that you know it.
Take just one Single shot. (Trigger mode Single.) Everything after this point handle just this one single shot. Inside oscilloscope memory is just only this one.
Just after this single shot you see there some dots (this rising edge as also in previously)
Do not go to History (and even if you go there is nothing more), do not adjust anything.
Before adjust or change anything take 1st screen image and tell what was Interpolation, x or Sinc. (just same kind of image as was your two images)
Then do not touch anything but swap only just interpolation.
Take 2nd image and tell what is now interpolation.
Now then you have 2 images where we can see these few dots.
I am really amazed if we can see that the dots have moved.
If these dots really move then we may need start further investigations about what a hell is going on.
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I'll try that out as soon as I can. But first I hope that my investigation and questions do not sound harsh or someone is under the impression that I blame my instrument... If so - not intended.
Then do not touch anything but swap only just interpolation.
That is what I very carefully tried (twice) during the test for the above post. But I chose a frame by history and not single shot. So, yes, I'll carefully follow your post. And also set the trigger to 0 V.
Like the 2N3055 in his second to last message, I think the images do not display same (1) individual "horizontal sweep" aka acquisition or capturte when we talk digital scopes.
Exactly what made me place a post after what you have explained to me about the capture process. The capture -should- not change, but picture looks like.
I am really amazed if we can see that the dots have moved.
I don't know what I would favour. ;) And how to react if they should be pinned to the screen.
thanks a lot
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I don't know what I would favour. ;) And how to react if they should be pinned to the screen.
thanks a lot
Well, best solution is that it was a user error ^-^ and all works perfectly....
And as RF said, if you can reproduce this, exact steps should be written down and forwarded to Siglent so they can look into it.
P.S. Did I miss it or you didn't say? What Firmware are you running ? That is important.
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I'll try that out as soon as I can. But first I hope that my investigation and questions do not sound harsh or someone is under the impression that I blame my instrument... If so - not intended.
I think these are always interesting and welcome, and then you can explain or find a more specific principle of operation of the device, which is usually always a good thing to understand when applying the device to study signal phenomena, for example. The only way to successfully test and explore more demanding things is to know the features of the device and the details of how it works.
But also it is good if result is that there pops up some new unknown bug. Only known bug can fix.
It is extremely unfortunate that the time is over when the manufacturers produced manuals that dealt with the functions of the device in great detail and with quite in-depth explanations down to the last detail, including the basics of the theory. In the old days, both HP and Tektronix, among others, produced such massive manuals and reference guides for many of their devices.
Those times are over. This is unfortunate, especially as equipment has become increasingly versatile and often more complex in its operation. Now, users often have to try and find out how this might work. Sometimes it can lead to long iterative experiments.
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I did as told:
In addition I enabled color grading for increased visibility.
Set the scope to single shot trigger which stopped after the shot, as expected. I verified that in History there is only one single shot shown. 1/1.
After checking the history button I did an other shot just for sanity.
I would have placed a bet after being said I am really amazed if we can see that the dots have moved.
but they do. Don't they?
Second idea was to enable sequence mode for a sequence of 2 and see if there is any correlation.
At first glance I would say that "sequence_2" is similar to "sequence_2_sinc", but "sequence_2_x" is not correlated much.
I do not want to place speculations, but it is strange. Especially strange that you guys cannot reproduce this effect. ;-)
Any ideas for further experimentation for the coming weekend?
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Yeah something is weird..
What is firmware version?
I cannot check myself, I don't have SDS2000X+
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What is firmware version?
Ohh shame I forgot to give that information. I suppose it is the lastest firmware.
Software Version 1.3.9R6
FPGA Version 2021-07-16
CPLD: 03
HW version 02-04
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I can reproduce this effect. Same firmware version.
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Also, here is how it looks with the images overlaid.
Switching between x and sinc looks very consistent in the way the dots jump between the 2 positions. So seems to be repositioning based on the same data.
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There is no need to determine the exact trigger point during acquisition. We have a bunch of sample data and the index of the first sample after the trigger point.
Only when the data are to be displayed on the screen and placed into the secondary buffer for measurements and math, we also need the correct trigger time offset, which can be anywhere between zero and the full sample interval.
Quite obviously, the selected interpolation method is used by the trigger position finding. Who would have thought that we get such a lot of flexibility? But then again, it's absolutely necessary to use the same method for the trigger positioning and the data set used for measurements, since some measurements are related to the trigger position, like Delay and T@M.
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I did as told:
In addition I enabled color grading for increased visibility.
Set the scope to single shot trigger which stopped after the shot, as expected. I verified that in History there is only one single shot shown. 1/1.
After checking the history button I did an other shot just for sanity.
I would have placed a bet after being said I am really amazed if we can see that the dots have moved.
but they do. Don't they?
Ofcourse they move! The trigger interpolator will move the dots so that the trigger point in time matches the trigger level (voltage). The reason for the dots moving is because the sampling frequency isn't an exact multiple of the signal source's frequency so the signal gets sampled at different points in the waveform. If you run a longer sequence (say 20 segments) and overlay those, you'll see that the points will follow the shape of the signal.
The dots will only stay in a fixed position IF the sample frequency is locked to the signal source's frequency. In that case the oscilloscope will sample the signal at the exact same points in time and thus the trigger interpolator will position the sample points at the same place on the screen.
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I tried on SDS6000 and nothing moves in dot mode. Not a dot. I cannot try 2000X+, I don't have one, sorry. They should function in a very similar fashion, they are based on a same platform.
On my 6000, I take single acquisition, set it in a dot mode and if I flip X/sinc nothing happens.
Same as if I go to history buffers and pick one from there...
You can capture using example dots mode... stop scope and after then turn Sinc or x and switch between these and you can see trigger position stay perfectly enough in right place between real sample dots independent of which one post processed interpolation you select.
I am not sure what interpolation trigger engine is using but it must be in trigger engine because it need work always, independent of our setting for display waveform. Somehow I do not believe it change this interpolation method depending what user have selected for post process interpolation.
Dots mode. there is neither interpolation nor reconstruction, hence we always see the true signal - as long as the trigger data is valid, i.e. not disturbed because of aliasing.
Ofcourse they move! The trigger interpolator will move the dots so that the trigger point in time matches the trigger level (voltage).
Not so obvious for me because of: Digital trigger engine is before sample memory just after ADC and full HW samplerate.
Thinking about all I learned during this discussion I come to the conclusion that, yes SDS2000+ obvioulsy behaves like it does and SDS6000 slightly different. It is in the post processing. Maybe they changed the dot mode to a pure 'sample-scope-mode' (which was somewhat implied for all scopes as I understand the above posts) on purpose in order to avoid problems with measured eyes? But, that is speculation.... First thing that came to mind was to ask 2n3055 to have a deeper look at what can be done and happen with the eyes on his sds6k.
This discussion was really interessting and I got to know the community of this forum. Thank you! User rf-loop mentioned the lack of in-depth documentation these days.... Well that is true but you rarely miss it and if I had to choose between documentation and price-tag I have to admit I'd favor price-tag :-(
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Ofcourse they move! The trigger interpolator will move the dots so that the trigger point in time matches the trigger level (voltage).
Not so obvious for me because of: Digital trigger engine is before sample memory just after ADC and full HW samplerate.
The trigger engine only gives a course indication about when a trigger occured. The trigger time interpolator provides high resolution time information on when the trigger happened precisely. The information from the trigger time interpolator is used by the display engine to position the waveform on screen.
IOW: the trigger engine determines when the DSO stops sampling, the trigger time interpolator determines where the signal goes on screen (horizontal position).
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IOW: the trigger engine determines when the DSO stops sampling, the trigger time interpolator determines where the signal goes on screen (horizontal position).
Yes, pretty much. Trigger interpolator adjusts microposition between two samples, to get better resolution than sample interval (1/sample rate).
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I did as told:
In addition I enabled color grading for increased visibility.
Set the scope to single shot trigger which stopped after the shot, as expected. I verified that in History there is only one single shot shown. 1/1.
After checking the history button I did an other shot just for sanity.
I would have placed a bet after being said I am really amazed if we can see that the dots have moved.
but they do. Don't they?
Ofcourse they move! The trigger interpolator will move the dots so that the trigger point in time matches the trigger level (voltage). The reason for the dots moving is because the sampling frequency isn't an exact multiple of the signal source's frequency so the signal gets sampled at different points in the waveform. If you run a longer sequence (say 20 segments) and overlay those, you'll see that the points will follow the shape of the signal.
But the case was already looked from the data allready captured and oscilloscope is STOP. And in DOTS display mode, then just change the post processing interpolation method (keep only the ADC sample points on the display) and data was changed (dots positions moved) (and again, it's already one shot in memory and the measurement range in stop mode).) Only if you ignore this fact, the explanation is ok as a simple basic principle.
When I have tested with another Siglent oscilloscope in the same family, these points do not move, they remain as as written in stone. They don’t move, and they shouldn’t move. Do you want to adjust and change the raw data after collecting it. Somewhere we call this "manipulated truth." No more messing up the sum of mistakes and truth.
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If I interpret his posting right, Angus shows two captures from the history buffer which are overlayed:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1408585;image)
This could hind towards why you see the dots moving in his other screendumps; the scope may show a different capture from the history buffer after changing the parameters. Even though the dots moved, they have moved in a way that follows the shape of the signal. It is not a X or Y shift (which would indicate a signal positioning error).
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This could hind towards why you see the dots moving in his other screendumps; the scope may show a different capture from the history buffer after changing the parameters.
I think not really. Originall the scope did a single trigger and no sequence.
Sequence was added after that, just to figure out -if- the sope would toggle between these shots.
But the case was already looked from the data allready captured and oscilloscope is STOP. And in DOTS display mode, then just change the post processing interpolation method (keep only the ADC sample points on the display) and data was changed (dots positions moved) (and again, it's already one shot in memory and the measurement range in stop mode).
That is the point. Thank you for pointing that out I was not sure if I was able to communicate properly.
If no one could imagine a setting that leads to such an effect I doubt that a solution can be found. I am happy to discuss here, but the thread is about different stuff I think.
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I did some THD measurements of the audio spectrum on the SDG2000X some months ago, which you can see here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-siglent-sdg2042x-thread/msg3606484/#msg3606484 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-siglent-sdg2042x-thread/msg3606484/#msg3606484)
I thought it would be interesting to see how the internal AWG of the SDS2000X+ stacks up, so I repeated the experiment, with a QA402 this time.
The numbers:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1411093;image)
In a graph:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1411099;image)
It's not too happy below 25Hz, 1Vrms seems to be the worst amplitude, and 20kHz does much better than the other frequencies - even better than the SDG2000X. But with the exception of 20kHz it's doing much worse than the SDG2000X, unsurprisingly. More comparable to the output of the Owon HDS272S.
Adding some example screenshots below as well.
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This could hind towards why you see the dots moving in his other screendumps; the scope may show a different capture from the history buffer after changing the parameters.
I think not really. Originall the scope did a single trigger and no sequence.
Sequence was added after that, just to figure out -if- the sope would toggle between these shots.
But what was the acquisition like before you made the new single shot acquisition? I doubt the history memory is fully cleared before doing a new acquisition so even in single shot mode, the information from the previous acquisition is still there.
What would be an interesting test is to let the scope run with a signal for a while so you are sure the entire history buffer is filled what acquisitions of that signal. Then do a single shot of a signal that is different (lower amplitude for example) and do your settings change test. It will be interesting to see what pops up on the screen.
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Regarding the dots mode issue:
There is no need to do any further tests on this level.
It is already confirmed, that the SDS2000X Plus behaves differently to e.g. an SDS6000. The latter doesn't do any re-positioning of the samples, no matter if x or sin(x)/x is selected. Still the measurements appear correct, even the ones related to the trigger position.
There might be a bug in the SDS2000X Plus trigger handling. Also the huge difference in waveform update speed seems implausible.
I'm in the process of investigating the issue right now, this requires lots of measurements, including waveform update speed under various conditions and settings, including automatic measurments, for both the SDS2000X Plus and the SDS6000. All this will take quite some time.
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I just added a pull request in Sigrok Pulseview to support the SDS2000X Plus series, feel free to test it and give feedback: https://github.com/sigrokproject/libsigrok/pull/176
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I've been away from these fights...
Has anyone tried the "EJ" and "SENT" options on the SDS2000X+?
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Has anyone tried the "EJ" and "SENT" options on the SDS2000X+?
What's the "EJ"? option?
Edit: oh, eye diagram that is available for SDS6k: https://siglentna.com/product/eye-jitter-analysis-sds6000a/
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Software has it like this:
EJ - SDS-5000X-EJ - SDS_2000XP_EJ - SDS6000Pro-EJ
;)
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Also looks like a new file options_ej_times.txt showed up in the 1.3.9R4 firmware:
$ ls -la options_*
------xr-x 1 user users 2 april 10 2021 options_1553b_times.txt
---------x 1 user users 2 april 10 2021 options_awg_times.txt
------x--x 1 user users 2 april 10 2021 options_canfd_times.txt
-rw------- 1 user users 2 sep. 11 13:14 options_ej_times.txt
------x--x 1 user users 2 april 10 2021 options_flx_times.txt
------xr-x 1 user users 2 april 10 2021 options_i2s_times.txt
---x------ 1 user users 2 april 10 2021 options_manc_times.txt
-------r-x 1 user users 2 april 10 2021 options_mso_times.txt
---------x 1 user users 2 april 10 2021 options_pa_times.txt
---x------ 1 user users 2 april 10 2021 options_sent_times.txt
-------r-x 1 user users 2 april 10 2021 options_wifi_times.txt
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I already have SENT enabled, but never had reason to use it.
(I believe) I've generated the code for EJ using the Python script, but there is no option to install it (1.3.9R6)
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I already have SENT enabled, but never had reason to use it.
(I believe) I've generated the code for EJ using the Python script, but there is no option to install it (1.3.9R6)
Use the SCPI command:
LCISL optioncode,hexkey
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No joy.
Tried the format below, and rebooted afterwards. No extra option shown enabled, and nothing extra menu under Analysis.
LCISL EJ,wwww-xxxx-yyyy-zzzz
Also tried variations of case, spacing and no dashes.
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LCISL EJ,wwww-xxxx-yyyy-zzzz
Why the dashes? It should be no dashes but others may confirm.
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The script produces the codes with dashes.
I can’t recall when I did the others originally, but I think I typed them onto the screen, so dashes are not used anyway, but I have tried without dashes via command too.
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The script produces the codes with dashes.
I can’t recall when I did the others originally, but I think I typed them onto the screen, so dashes are not used anyway, but I have tried without dashes via command too.
And what is your FW version, at this moment?
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1.3.9R6
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1.3.9R6
In your NSP_system_info.xml is there any reference to a "Dynamic Key"?
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I'll need to setup a drive for the telnet access, I've never had need to go in before.
I assume the method in https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3006340/?topicseen#msg3006340 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3006340/?topicseen#msg3006340) still works?
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I'll need to setup a drive for the telnet access, I've never had need to go in before.
I assume the method in https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3006340/?topicseen#msg3006340 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3006340/?topicseen#msg3006340) still works?
More or less. Inside the .sh use this line:
/usr/sbin/telnetd -l /bin/sh
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(I believe) I've generated the code for EJ using the Python script, but there is no option to install it (1.3.9R6)
Because there is no eyediagram/jitter analyzis option for the 2000XP in real, this isn´t a hidden easteregg feature..
EJ - SDS-5000X-EJ - SDS_2000XP_EJ - SDS6000Pro-EJ
I think, it´s only "there" because all the three scopetypes are using more or less the same software.
A few months before, we got the same problem on a lecroy if I remember it right.
Installing all "theoretical possible" licenses but won´t work correctly.
I think it was on a WS3000 scope.
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That worked a lot better :-)
/usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0 # cat NSP_system_info.xml
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<nsp_system_info_root>
<device>
<system_information>
<serial_number>
<chip>XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX</chip> (S/N removed)
</serial_number>
</system_information>
</device>
<Device><Mac>74:5b:c5:20:7b:e2</Mac></Device></nsp_system_info_root>
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(I believe) I've generated the code for EJ using the Python script, but there is no option to install it (1.3.9R6)
Because there is no eyediagram/jitter analyzis option for the 2000XP in real, this isn´t a hidden easteregg feature..
EJ - SDS-5000X-EJ - SDS_2000XP_EJ - SDS6000Pro-EJ
I think, it´s only "there" because all the three scopetypes are using more or less the same software.
A few months before, we got the same problem on a lecroy if I remember it right.
Installing all "theoretical possible" licenses but won´t work correctly.
I think it was on a WS3000 scope.
Makes sense :-(
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I think, it´s only "there" because all the three scopetypes are using more or less the same software.
Martin, understand but this isn't the same "only there".
There is the explicit license designation "SDS_2000XP_EJ" in there and this only happens when there is a real reason. It's not only "EJ".
Of course, can be in beta, may need a flag to activate, not yet releasable, etc. But it's explicitly inside.
It's not like a "1000M" reference that we are trying to make it work in a SDS2k+.
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Hm, interesting... :D
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The eye diagram feature seems to be guarded by a lot of checks everywhere for product type, so enabling the license might not have any effect.
Not sure if this is just because they want us to buy the most expensive model, or if this feature requires some hardware or fpga logic not in the SDS2000X+. Could also be that it's unfinished like tv84 says.
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Well, trying the key did something, though permissions are different to others:
---x------ 1 root root 20 Nov 15 2020 options_canfd_cfg.bin
---x------ 1 root root 20 Nov 15 2020 options_canfd_license.txt
-rw------- 1 root root 20 Feb 20 11:59 options_ej_cfg.bin
-rw------- 1 root root 20 Feb 20 11:59 options_ej_license.txt
---x------ 1 root root 20 Nov 15 2020 options_flx_cfg.bin
---x------ 1 root root 20 Nov 15 2020 options_flx_license.txt
---x------ 1 root root 20 Nov 15 2020 options_i2s_cfg.bin
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Well, trying the key did something, though permissions are different to others:
No problem with the permissions. Well, that somewhat confirms that my suspicion was right. Let's all try to better understand the environment...
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The eye diagram feature seems to be guarded by a lot of checks everywhere for product type, so enabling the license might not have any effect.
Not sure if this is just because they want us to buy the most expensive model, or if this feature requires some hardware or fpga logic not in the SDS2000X+. Could also be that it's unfinished like tv84 says.
:-+
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OK,I can confirm the SCPI command+key is accepted on SDS5k. No additional menus appear. However at the risk of misleading you I noticed the trigger setting on "pattern" after the reboot. Which I didn't use before.
FW; 095R3
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Does anyone know if you can use Siglent's SAG1021I USB AWG module as a second (synchronized) AWG channel for the SDS2000X Plus? If anyone has both, then it would be cool if it were tested.
If it doesn't work, then they should really add it as an option.
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Does anyone know if you can use Siglent's SAG1021I USB AWG module as a second (synchronized) AWG channel for the SDS2000X Plus? If anyone has both, then it would be cool if it were tested.
If it doesn't work, then they should really add it as an option.
You cannot do that. They cannot be synchronized because they don't have synchronized clocks and waveform engines..
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Got mine yesterday. Apart from the loud fan (ordered a Noctua replacement right away :D) and slightly loose display in the bottom right corner I am quite happy with it.
Although I dearly miss one feature, which is 9 bit UART decoding. I assumed this is a standard feature in oscilloscope decoders, all the ones from the usual brands at work have it. As another user mentioned here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds1104x-e-uartserial-decode-for-9-bit-multidropmultiprocessor-protocol/), it is very common in industry busses such as RS485, which is the exact application I am using it for. Fortunately, since the linked question, Siglent has added the mark/space parity option which allows me to display every byte sent and simply mark the frame byte with a parity error (shown red).
Does anyone have an idea whether there are any plans to add proper 9 bit decoding? For SPI you can even go up to 32 bit, which I think is very nice.
On a side note: I got a cheap bundle for the FGen and MSO HW+SW package. There was an "Option Card" in the package which uses the serial number of the scope to generate an option code - they are exactly the same as the ones generated by the infamous python script which is based on the scope id.
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Although I dearly miss one feature, which is 9 bit UART decoding.
True. I have made an overview of the implementation of serial decoders (and other parts) of the SDSD2000X+ and several other scopes where you see this and many other specifics abiout what is supposed and what not.
It is available here: https://github.com/RudisElectronicsLab/RTB_SDS_DSOX_review
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It is available here: https://github.com/RudisElectronicsLab/RTB_SDS_DSOX_review
Many thanks, that is super useful! Any chance you can create the pdf in a way that text in the main part of the document is selectable? It looks like the pages are exported as images..
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it would be nice to be able to link the oscilloscope to the sigrok / salae logic analyzer software. but unfortunately i cannot see any of these scope(s) on the wiki's supported hardware list
https://sigrok.org/wiki/Supported_hardware#Oscilloscopes
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Many thanks, that is super useful!
Thanks. Happy to hear people find it useful! You might also want out to check out the video episode I made on this (five are posted now). https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSTHQUENuAc2UwmrlHkVGKw (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSTHQUENuAc2UwmrlHkVGKw)
Any chance you can create the pdf in a way that text in the main part of the document is selectable? It looks like the pages are exported as images..
Just check this and you are right... Page 1 has selectable text but page 2 and further do not. Must be the PDF renderer, did not do this on purpose. I will see if I can make a new version this weekend.
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it would be nice to be able to link the oscilloscope to the sigrok / salae logic analyzer software. but unfortunately i cannot see any of these scope(s) on the wiki's supported hardware list
https://sigrok.org/wiki/Supported_hardware#Oscilloscopes
It's on the "Mixed Signal Devices" as supported listed: https://sigrok.org/wiki/Siglent_SDS2000X_series
What a great idea to use the HW/Frontend with a PC based analyzer, did not know this was possible.
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ah thanks, didn't see it there. Also its supported some LeCroy oscilloscopes. And the R&S RTB2004 :-+
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ah thanks, didn't see it there. Also its supported some LeCroy oscilloscopes. And the R&S RTB2004 :-+
Yes, I tried it out. Well that was a frustrating experience. Could not get the Pulseview software to find/list my scope, no matter what I did on the driver side. Has anyone managed to get this to work? (Win10)
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It's on the "Mixed Signal Devices" as supported listed: https://sigrok.org/wiki/Siglent_SDS2000X_series
What a great idea to use the HW/Frontend with a PC based analyzer, did not know this was possible.
That's the SDS2000X, not the X-plus. You had me all excited for about a minute!
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That's the SDS2000X, not the X-plus. You had me all excited for about a minute!
I don't think that makes any difference. If at all, you'll get a better experience with the XP. The driver in PulseView simply says "SDS1000/SDS2000". I doubt there is any meaningful difference in the protocol between the scopes.
That being said, can anyone share their experience with any SDS and sigrok? The Interwebs don't return a lot of result when searching for it.
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The current sigrok version does not yet support the Plus - but look just a page back in this very thread:
I just added a pull request in Sigrok Pulseview to support the SDS2000X Plus series, feel free to test it and give feedback: https://github.com/sigrokproject/libsigrok/pull/176
So if you are comfortable building from sources please test it, otherwise you have to wait just a little while longer :)
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The current sigrok version does not yet support the Plus - but look just a page back in this very thread:
I just added a pull request in Sigrok Pulseview to support the SDS2000X Plus series, feel free to test it and give feedback: https://github.com/sigrokproject/libsigrok/pull/176
Hmm shiet, you are right. That looks like considerable differences. I hope that is the cause of why mine is not detected by sigrok at all. Looks like PRs in the repo are not really worked on on a regular basis, what a shame. There are many high-quality contributions waiting for their merge into master.
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Today I´ve got the permission to order a scope and a currentprobe for our testfield and I did it.
Siglent SDS2104X-Plus and siglent CP5500....Cost more than fourtimes of the scope... :P
The CP5500 is nearly the same as the 500A probe from lecroy, but without the probus interface.
Scope and probe will be external calibrated after they arrived and then every year in the future.
I´m totally convinced about the sds2k+, I got time enough to test and judge about it, as I´ve got it for over 1.5 years at home.
Let´s see what my other colleagues will say to this combo.. 8)
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@Dracarris,
Any chance you can create the pdf in a way that text in the main part of the document is selectable? It looks like the pages are exported as images..
Thanks for noting, that was not intentional. I now uploaded a version that is text selectable (and it is updated as well ;-)
https://github.com/RudisElectronicsLab/RTB_SDS_DSOX_review
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Hi,
As I did this measure:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/show-us-your-square-wave/msg4045285/#msg4045285 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/show-us-your-square-wave/msg4045285/#msg4045285)
And compare it to the screenshot from the lecroy wr9054, what I don't quite like is the very squeezed display when using the stats function on the sds2k+.
Is it because of the lower resolution of the siglent (1024x600 vs 1280x XXX, I´ve forgotten it) ?
Or can it be optimized by lowering the font size....
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Hi,
As I did this measure:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/show-us-your-square-wave/msg4045285/#msg4045285 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/show-us-your-square-wave/msg4045285/#msg4045285)
And compare it to the screenshot from the lecroy wr9054, what I don't quite like is the very squeezed display when using the stats function on the sds2k+.
Is it because of the lower resolution of the siglent (1024x600 vs 1280x XXX, I´ve forgotten it) ?
Or can it be optimized by lowering the font size....
Martin,
that is always an interesting problem, comparing screen layout on 15" and 10" screens.
1024/600 (1,706 AR) vs 1280/800 (1,6 AR) is not a problem here. Physical size is.
In last decade, we see screen elements on our devices being smaller and smaller, and screens getting so high DPI that pixels are not visible anymore. And on our phones they are making some fonts on screen literally 1,5 mm high. If you look at them with magnifying glass they are perfectly formed fonts and look perfect. But held at arm length, they are just bunch of dots. Look around you and you'll see all these people sticking phones in their face.... :-DD
There is also problem of gestalt. When reading a text in some language, our brain has capability to correctly recognize what word it is even if some letters are smudged or not legible. Brain kind of recognizes it as a pattern. Captchas work that way.
So even if you cannot perfectly see all the details of the font (because it is too small) you will still recognize the words, especially after some practice.
But numbers are different. Numbers you need to see, clearly and unambiguously, each one. You need to see decimal point(comma), grouping, you need to see SI prefixes...
So there is a limit how small stuff can get on a screen. An by that I mean in millimeters, not pixels.
On wr9054 they actually use less pixels for elements and fonts are more blocky... But large enough to be legible.
But since screen is larger, that gives them more millimeters for the waveform.
On SDS6000 it is closer to what you see on wr9054, because of 12" screen. I would consider SDS6000 layout to be at the edge of what can be achieved. Any further miniaturization would be potentially too much for normal reading.
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And compare it to the screenshot from the lecroy wr9054, what I don't quite like is the very squeezed display when using the stats function on the sds2k+.
Is it because of the lower resolution of the siglent (1024x600 vs 1280x XXX, I´ve forgotten it) ?
Or can it be optimized by lowering the font size....
Try the other measurement style. With only a couple of measurements it will be more compact.
Like this:
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There is also problem of gestalt. When reading a text in some language, our brain has capability to correctly recognize what word it is even if some letters are smudged or not legible. Brain kind of recognizes it as a pattern. Captchas work that way.
So even if you cannot perfectly see all the details of the font (because it is too small) you will still recognize the words, especially after some practice.
But numbers are different. Numbers you need to see, clearly and unambiguously, each one. You need to see decimal point(comma), grouping, you need to see SI prefixes...
Great analogy, generally in engineering numbers are more important than letters and can't be interpreted!!
Best,
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it would be nice to be able to link the oscilloscope to the sigrok / salae logic analyzer software. but unfortunately i cannot see any of these scope(s) on the wiki's supported hardware list
https://sigrok.org/wiki/Supported_hardware#Oscilloscopes
If you are using Linux (specifically Fedora 35) you can try out my build here: https://github.com/gralco/libsigrok/releases/tag/sds2000x_plus
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Thanks for noting, that was not intentional. I now uploaded a version that is text selectable (and it is updated as well ;-)
https://github.com/RudisElectronicsLab/RTB_SDS_DSOX_review
Very nice, also with clickable ToC :)
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Regarding the dots mode issue:
There is no need to do any further tests on this level.
It is already confirmed, that the SDS2000X Plus behaves differently to e.g. an SDS6000. The latter doesn't do any re-positioning of the samples, no matter if x or sin(x)/x is selected. Still the measurements appear correct, even the ones related to the trigger position.
There might be a bug in the SDS2000X Plus trigger handling. Also the huge difference in waveform update speed seems implausible.
I'm in the process of investigating the issue right now, this requires lots of measurements, including waveform update speed under various conditions and settings, including automatic measurments, for both the SDS2000X Plus and the SDS6000. All this will take quite some time.
I surely do not mean to be impatient, but if you can give information about investigations or if there is official information from Siglent I would love to hear. I think it is (although speculation) in interessting idea if Siglent might have changed dot-mode algorithms on perpose because they introduced eye diagram.
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Today I´ve got the permission to order a scope and a currentprobe for our testfield and I did it.
Siglent SDS2104X-Plus and siglent CP5500....Cost more than fourtimes of the scope... :P
Today the SDS2104X-Plus arrived, the current probe will arrive appx 2 weeks later.
It´s always the same, men becomes to children waiting for christmas, when someone comes with a package in his arms.. 8)
What´s this...Who is siglent...costs so less...looks nice...and so on.
We didn´t turn it on today because of acclimation.
Maybe a little bit of playing with it tomorrow, but really using lasts a while.
First register it into our equipment list, then sending away for calibration - without calibration, we´re not "allowed" to use it.
But in the "playing time", I can do something interesting, for example compare it to the "nearest" opponent here in the testfield, the lecroy ws3024z.
BTW, it´the first SDS2104X-Plus, when we´re confident with it, two more will follow in the next weeks.
BTW the second, it´s a pity we buy it in a moment, where no promos are avaible except the FG/LA thing, we don´t need.
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First register it into our equipment list, then sending away for calibration - without calibration, we´re not "allowed" to use it.
Mine came with a calibration certificate in the box. Not good enough?
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Maybe they need DAkkS Calibration ?
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First register it into our equipment list, then sending away for calibration - without calibration, we´re not "allowed" to use it.
Mine came with a calibration certificate in the box. Not good enough?
Sometimes not depending on the company involved and their 'inhouse' practices.
A Cal lab we sell stuff to must have instruments logged into their system and Cal checked before anything can be placed into service.
The Military are similar.
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Mine came with a calibration certificate in the box. Not good enough?
"ours" too, but it´s too less.
For example, what exactly was measured, what are the tolerances, which values were measured, where is the individual measure-protocol...
Example two, lets say, a value is specified with a tolerance of 1%.
Siglents "one sheet" says, everythings fine.
But did they really tested exactly this point ? And what are the value, is it inbetween the given tolerance or hard on the edge...
And so on.
Of course we can do measurements with the scope without calibration, but then we couldn´t use it for our factory acceptance tests
Our couple of "little" rigol and siglent scopes (DS1000Z and SDS1104X) aren´t calibrated, we use them for pre-tests only.
But our need of calibration is an advantage for all who wanted to know how good the sds2k+ in detail is - I´ll present the results here... ;)
Maybe they need DAkkS Calibration ?
Not for everything, but everytime from a DAkkS accredited cal-lab.
The pics: SDS2104X+ and WS3024Z side by side - I coud swear, they got the same lcd screen..
Pic of the version, pic from the certificate.
BTW:
Maybe nothing new for others, but for me it was new:
The power-button of this new sds2k+ doesn´t lit/glow anymore when in standby, only when in operation.
Martin
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SDS2104X+ and WS3024Z side by side
this would be a great comparison. if you can spend some more time with the equipment, after some weeks of usage. to come back later on?
:popcorn:
after mentioning this lecroy model, i found only 1 video on youtube. and it demonstrate a feature for detecting 'unusual' anomalies. like irregular events
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SDS2104X+ and WS3024Z side by side
this would be a great comparison. if you can spend some more time with the equipment, after some weeks of usage. to come back later on?
:popcorn:
after mentioning this lecroy model, i found only 1 video on youtube. and it demonstrate a feature for detecting 'unusual' anomalies. like irregular events
Quite differently spec'ed scopes.
LeCroy is 4 GSa/s and 20 Mpts/CH
SDS2000X Plus is 2 GSa/s x 2 ADC's each with 200 Mpts
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This makes a comparison not impossible..
Rob, did you noticed this :
Maybe nothing new for others, but for me it was new:
The power-button of this new sds2k+ doesn´t lit/glow anymore when in standby, only when in operation.
?
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This makes a comparison not impossible..
Rob, did you noticed this :
Maybe nothing new for others, but for me it was new:
The power-button of this new sds2k+ doesn´t lit/glow anymore when in standby, only when in operation.
?
Yes there are small subtle HW changes in all models from time to time.
We don't get notification about them as they're part of ongoing product improvements. ;)
SDS6000A has a constantly lit power button however now with a grey front so only the edges/sides show power is connected.
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@Martin72
The power button on my SDS2104X+ (bought 20 months ago) glows very dimly when powered down as does that on the SSA3021X+ bought 5 months later. My very first Siglent DSO, purchased jut over three years ago, an SDS1202X-E, does wink smoothishly so this was a slightly unsettling change to its powered down status indicator.
In a brightly lit lab, this very dim power down status indication could very easily be missed - take a closer look next time you're about to power it up (or down). :)
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Hi John,
Will do it tomorrow - Although I´ve covered the "area" around the button with my hands, to make sure I´m not too blind... :)
But I´ll check it again.
Martin
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Hi all.
Since the probes that come with SDS2104 are not of great quality, I'm looking for something better. I found an Pico TA133 probe at a very attractive price, but its data sheet states that this probe is optimized for a specific type of oscilloscope from Pico Technology (only? :-//). While I don't see any reason why this probe can't work just as well with my Siglent, I'd like to hear more experienced friends' opinions on this.
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@ John,
Our SDS2102X+ (older) the power button is dim when off, our SDS2104X+ (newer) the power button is not lit when off.
Best,
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Since the probes that come with SDS2104 are not of great quality, I'm looking for something better. I found an Pico TA133 probe at a very attractive price, but its data sheet states that this probe is optimized for a specific type of oscilloscope from Pico Technology (only? :-//). While I don't see any reason why this probe can't work just as well with my Siglent, I'd like to hear more experienced friends' opinions on this.
How attractive a price? They don't appear to be cheapies! That is a very nice probe, I wish I had one but I have too many already. It looks to have a very nice accessory set for small component probing. It should work fine with your scope, the only issue regarding compatibility would be the compensation range. In this case the 10-25pF easily covers your scope model, and probably most decent 100MHz+ models.
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I think €170 for a pair of probes, including shipping costs, is a very attractive price ;D.
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I think €170 for a pair of probes, including shipping costs, is a very attractive price ;D.
The 350 MHz Siglent autosense 10x are even cheaper:
https://siglentna.com/product/sp2035a-auto-sense-350-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/
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I share the exact same feelings on the provided probes, and I also bought 2 sets of TA133. The TA133 works fine with the Siglent scope, but I deal with a lot of analog circuits and often need the x1 range, the cable on the TA133 is also stiffer than my liking. I ended up buying 4 sets of Rigol PVP2350 350MHz probes for less than one TA133, as they have a 35MHz x1 range, the build quality is way superior than the Siglent proveded probes, no regrets so far, and they are my go-to probes.
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The Pico TA133 look very much like the PML 711A manufactured by PMK. They are also available with readout pin and then called PML 711A-RO. And they are as well available with other bandwidth:
http://www.pmk.de/en/products/pml_high_z_tastkoepfe (http://www.pmk.de/en/products/pml_high_z_tastkoepfe)
https://www.batronix.com/shop/pmk/PML.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/pmk/PML.html)
I'm also thinking about replacing my Siglent probes with them. Especially i like the smaller size in diameter of the PMK probes. I think they also manufacture some OEM probes for LeCroy.
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Thank you all for your advice. Now I have a reason to think about a better choice. :-+
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The 350 MHz Siglent autosense 10x are even cheaper:
https://siglentna.com/product/sp2035a-auto-sense-350-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/
Unfortunately the SP2035A are quite pricy in europe. At least here in Germany it is still 189,- € at Welectron. So the price drop in the US has not arrived here.
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the thing about probes is that it would also be convenient those sensepeak pcbyte kit with the magnetic base and articulated arm
https://cdn.abicart.com/shop/ws40/74640/art21/168030021-1c8b79-UG_SP200_Rev1.0.pdf
however the highest quality probe they have is 200mhz, 14-18pF. which is worse
so maybe its possible to take their (even cheaper?) 100mhz probe. then discard the probe itself. but keep and modify the stand holder parts. to take a different probe like those excellent PML / PMK. for easier setup
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The 350 MHz Siglent autosense 10x are even cheaper:
https://siglentna.com/product/sp2035a-auto-sense-350-mhz-oscilloscope-probes/
Unfortunately the SP2035A are quite pricy in europe. At least here in Germany it is still 189,- € at Welectron. So the price drop in the US has not arrived here.
It might be wise to be patient for a little while now... ;)
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Unfortunately the SP2035A are quite pricy in europe. At least here in Germany it is still 189,- € at Welectron. So the price drop in the US has not arrived here.
Not really, it's just Welectron who "forgot" to update the price.
I asked my local distributor about the SP2035A probes, and was told that the European prices (updated this January) are still not adjusted :--
Waiting to hear back from Siglent about this being an error or if Europe is excluded from the new lower price.
Good news :) Turns out that Siglent Europe forgot to update the price, so we get the new price as well.
No stock though, so don't know when I'll get hold of any.
Still out of stock for me though :(
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Well, if it's only for a little, I can be patient. :popcorn:
But judging by the Welectron, where I bought a lot of different devices, prices are only going up.
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Well, if it's only for a little, I can be patient. :popcorn:
The new price was from February, so just ask them about it :)
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I surely do not mean to be impatient, but if you can give information about investigations or if there is official information from Siglent I would love to hear. I think it is (although speculation) in interessting idea if Siglent might have changed dot-mode algorithms on perpose because they introduced eye diagram.
I've identified several bugs:
- In Dots display mode, the selection of x versus sin(x)/x should be irrelevant. Other scopes based on the same platform show a correct behavior in this regard.
- Waveform update rate generally is a bit on the slow side, and there is a huge difference between x interpolation and sin(x)/x reconstruction. This problem does not exist in an e.g. SDS6000A.
- Auto Trigger does not work as expected. it is slow and erratic if there's no signal present, e.g. for noise measurements.
- Mains Line Trigger does not work as expected. it only provides about 9 triggers per second on a 50 Hz grid.
All the above bug reports have been accepted by Siglent, entered into their bug-database and will be corrected with the next firmware.
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Excellent work ! :-+
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Hi John,
Will do it tomorrow - Although I´ve covered the "area" around the button with my hands, to make sure I´m not too blind... :)
But I´ll check it again.
Martin
Did it today....It´s dark.. ;)
Also we test the MIL 1553B decoding...It seems, it won´t work proper, but we want to try something, maybe it´s a matter of the adjustments(I wasn´t there when it was testing).
Will report in the next days and when it´s necessary, in the bug fred.
One more thing:
Today I´ve seen something in the channel dialogbox, I haven´t seen before at my siglent.
Probe symbols were displaying...Does anybody know when they will come up ?
And what does they mean?
At home I didn´t got these symbols (pic shows at work (left), home)
Martin
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Today I´ve seen something in the channel dialogbox, I haven´t seen before at my siglent.
Probe symbols were displaying...Does anybody when they will come up ?
And what does they mean?
At home I didn´t got these symbols (pic shows at work (left), home)
Indicates Custom probe attenuation setting.
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Hi,
The colleagues are impressed about the sds2k+, so the next two scopes are now on their way... 8)
When the current probe will arrive next week (hopefully), all the stuff will be send to the ext. cal-lab.
I´ll scan the protocols then and present them here, FYI.
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Anybody have any success enabling "telnet" access to an SDS2000X Plus lately? Running latest firmware (Version： V1.3.9R6), and the 'siglent_device_startup.sh' on a USB key method is not working for me. I'm Linux savvy, and have tried multiple times with various tweaks to the content of the file as found on other posts, but no joy. If someone can verify it still works for them, I'll keep at it...
Thanks
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Anybody have any success enabling "telnet" access to an SDS2000X Plus lately? Running latest firmware (Version： V1.3.9R6), and the 'siglent_device_startup.sh' on a USB key method is not working for me. I'm Linux savvy, and have tried multiple times with various tweaks to the content of the file as found on other posts, but no joy. If someone can verify it still works for them, I'll keep at it...
Thanks
Yes, it still works.
Are you putting the USB stick in first, before shutting it down and restarting? (That works for me)
Edit. Just tried from a power removed cold boot, and it still works ok.
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Thanks for the response. I'm clearly doing something wrong, as I just spent another hour trying to get it to work.
Would you mind posting the exact contents of your "siglent_device_startup.sh" file? The network, and USB stick seem to work fine, but I never see an open port for the telnet daemon on either the default (23), or specified ports (e.g. -p 2222). Tried cold/warm restarts, but no joy... :(
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Drive is 32GB Kingston, formatted FAT32
iMac:KINGSTON $ ls -l
-rwxrwxrwx@ 1 aaaaaaa staff 29 20 Feb 11:35 siglent_device_startup.sh
iMac:KINGSTON $ cat siglent_device_startup.sh
/usr/sbin/telnetd -l /bin/sh
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Have you tried a different usb port? I seem to remember only one of them works for running bootup scripts.
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I was only using one of the two front USB ports, but trying the other one was not successful either.... I've exhausted my options, so when I get up the gumption, I'll get on the UART and see what's up.
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I take it all back. In one last desperate attempt, I dug out an old USB stick that hadn't been used since 2014. Put the script file on it, rebooted, and surprisingly there was port 23 in my nmap report :).
I don't know why this particular USB key worked and the other did not. It's smaller (512M), instead of 8GB that the other one is. Both FAT32, but I'm thinking the format must be just different enough that the larger stick is not mounted correctly in early boot.
Anyway, I'm in :), thanks for the help and confirmation to make me keep trying.
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Just to close the loop in case someone else has the same issue (and because I don't like a mystery).
Turns out the 8GB USB flash drive I was having trouble with, was not partitioned. The fat32 file system was created on the main volume. Thus it shows up under Linux as "/dev/sdc", and not as "/dev/sdc1" like a drive with a partition would. Don't know how it got to be that way, as it was formatted from scratch on a Win10 box, but that was the issue.
I used "parted" to create an "msdos" partition table, and a single primary partition with a fat32 file system on it. Put the script in the top level directory, rebooted the scope (didn't have to power cycle), and the telnet daemon was waiting for me after the restart.
Cheers!
(now to get ntpd to set the time in my local timezone...)
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Here's a slow, un-optimised and crude python script that pulls samples from the scope and plots a noise spectral density graph, turning the scope into a crude dynamic signal analyser.
Pulling samples from the scope through LAN SCPI seems to be broken on the latest firmware, only managed to pull correct data from the scope with firmware 1.3.9R4. The reason the python script is crude, is I am pissed and spent too many hours troubleshooting the issue, only to realise the scope firmware is not working properly.
Sources of inspiration (i.e. where I stole my code from):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/noise-spectral-density-(nsd)/msg3955334/#msg3955334 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/noise-spectral-density-(nsd)/msg3955334/#msg3955334)
https://siglentna.com/download/19881/ (https://siglentna.com/download/19881/)
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It could be we already got this in the past, I couldn´t remember it actually:
Measuring...
Today at work, I had to adjust a triangle-signal for offset - Using the siglent for the first time for it.
Took as always the "mean" parameter, set the timebase in such manner, to have at least one full period on the screen.
Using the gate-lines for exactly zero-crossing at the beginning and end of the period.
Works fine, no problem at all - But I also got the frequency parameter acitve, nothing was displayed except *** .
The "hardware-counter" (?) instead is working...
Sounds so familar to me, I´m sure we got this case..
Martin
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It could be we already got this in the past, I couldn´t remember it actually:
Measuring...
Today at work, I had to adjust a triangle-signal for offset - Using the siglent for the first time for it.
Took as always the "mean" parameter, set the timebase in such manner, to have at least one full period on the screen.
Using the gate-lines for exactly zero-crossing at the beginning and end of the period.
Works fine, no problem at all - But I also got the frequency parameter acitve, nothing was displayed except *** .
The "hardware-counter" (?) instead is working...
Sounds so familar to me, I´m sure we got this case..
Martin
Frequency measurement between gates requires enough of waveform between the gates so algorithm can detect waveform features and decide where it repeats.
More specifically you need at least two passings trough zero in the same direction between the gates. Your gates are just too close to the period, right on the zero point. Move them a bit wider...
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OK sinisa, got it...
But... ;)
For calculating the frequency a full period is all you need, when you calculate it manually (f=1/T).
A DSO can´t do it ?
But it can measure/calculate amplitude, mean and all other "vertical stuff" ?
Interesting..
When you don´t specify the measure gate, it will measure on the whole screen(lecroy, siglent).
Frequency then will be measure correctly, but mean for example not*.
When you specify the measure gate, about one period, mean will be correctly measured, but frequency not.
interesting, again..
And why can the "hardware counter" get it ?
Because it gather the "information" over the whole memory and not what´s on the screen ?
Interesting, the third..
Martin
*) The lower the timebase will be set, the more you come closer to the value it measures on only one period
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OK sinisa, got it...
But... ;)
For calculating the frequency a full period is all you need, when you calculate it manually (f=1/T).
A DSO can´t do it ?
But it can measure/calculate amplitude, mean and all other "vertical stuff" ?
Interesting..
When you don´t specify the measure gate, it will measure on the whole screen.
Frequency then will be measure correctly, but mean for example not*.
When you specify the measure gate, about one period, mean will be correctly measured, but frequency not.
interesting, again..
And why can the "hardware counter" get it ?
Because it gather the "information" over the whole memory and not what´s on the screen ?
Interesting, the third..
Martin
*) The lower the timebase will be set, the more you came closer to the value it measures on only one period
You are correct, one full period is what it needs. Here measurement cursors come in handy. They show you where algorithm is measuring. And algorithm needs a certain area before and after two consecutive passes through center line of waveform to detect a full period. It is a bit crazy, I know, but it is logical as to why...
It will in fact, in full screen and in gates, find a first full period from the left and measure that.
Make note how things get interesting when you are not looking at simple repetitive waveform.
I used chirp that changes frequency in time...
Other measurements are vertical, an amplitude (or area). They will take anything between the gates, it doesn't have to "make decision".
Hardware counter is exactly that, it uses trigger circuit and measures independent to gates.
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Thought I'd post a version of the "siglent_device_startup.sh" script that I created to enable NTP time keeping for this scope (and a couple of other things). Could work as a template for other tweaks people might like to do. My starting point was that I did not want to make any permanent changes to the firmware on the scope. I know you can mount some of the flash as read-write, and make mods to preempt the invocation of "main.app", but I didn't feel comfortable doing that and possibly bricking the scope (requiring UART access).
The script is overkill for what it ends up doing (starting "ntpd"), but my OCD really wanted to have the time/date shown on the scope to be in my local timezone (rather than UTC), and thus required a modifiable "/etc" directory so I could add a "localtime" file. Once I had a writeable "/etc", I couldn't resist a couple of other tweaks to create a nicer shell environment and password protect the telnetd service.
I noted that once "/etc" was writeable, the DHCP client creates a valid "/etc/resolv" file. I was happy that I could now use FQDNs for my NTP server(s), or other hosts. However, my hopes were soon dashed, as I found that the resolver does not work on this version of the firmware (V1.3.9R6). There is some mismatch in the shared libraries for the busybox binary, and any attempts to resolve a host name results in the following error,
relocation error: /lib/libresolv.so.2: symbol __sendmmsg, version GLIBC_PRIVATE not defined in file libc.so.6 with link time reference
So static IP addresses for now. :( Here is the script and my personal "profile" mods (also attached). You will have to supply your own "localtime" file for your timezone. Remove ".txt" extension from attached files as I had to add it to allow posting.
# A script to tweak a few things on a Siglent SDS2000X Plus scope
# (developed on firmware = V1.3.9R6)
#
# Expects you to have files named "profile" and "localtime" in the top level
# directory of the USB media alongside this script. Use "localtime" file from any Linux
# OS configured for the desired timezone, or grab one from "/usr/share/zoneinfo/".
# Path to this script and other support files
USB_TLD=$(dirname $0)
# Clone /etc so we can make some run-time mods (very small)
/bin/cp -a /etc /tmp
# Now cover original /etc with a bind mount to copied dir
/bin/mount --bind /tmp/etc /etc
# Change the root password for telnet
# Generated with "mkpasswd --method=sha256crypt"
echo 'root:$5$pr81dcqw1/OpvOPT$L8tE.M8YZHEGY7DW2SqBJl9Abn/tjYbRiGoF9gFQAS/' | chpasswd -e
# Add localtime file from USB media for setting timezone
/bin/cp ${USB_TLD}/localtime /etc/localtime
# Augment environment for the shell with personal preferences from USB media
/bin/cat ${USB_TLD}/profile >> /etc/profile
# Remount as read-only (or not)
#/bin/mount -o remount,ro /etc
# Start telnet server (requires login via password above)
/usr/sbin/telnetd
# Set NTP server address as needed for your environment
# Note: resolver does not currently work, so must be numeric IP address
NTP_SERVER_IP="192.168.1.222"
# Create a script to run when "ntpd" generates an event
# Remove "#DEBUG " to get logging of the events
NTPD_SCRIPT="/tmp/set_rtc.sh"
NTPD_LOG="/tmp/ntpd_log.txt"
/bin/cat >${NTPD_SCRIPT} <<-"HEREDOC"
#!/bin/sh
NTPD_LOG="/tmp/ntpd_log.txt"
#DEBUG echo $1 >> ${NTPD_LOG}
#DEBUG echo "stratum=$stratum, freq_drift_ppm=$freq_drift_ppm, poll_interval=$poll_interval, offset=$offset" >> ${NTPD_LOG}
if [ $1 == "step" ]; then
/sbin/hwclock --systohc
#DEBUG echo "Set RTC" >> ${NTPD_LOG}
fi
#DEBUG /bin/date -u >> ${NTPD_LOG}
#DEBUG /bin/date >> ${NTPD_LOG}
HEREDOC
# Make above ntpd script executable
/bin/chmod a+rx ${NTPD_SCRIPT}
# Start the NTP daemon with the option to run a script on events
/usr/sbin/ntpd -S ${NTPD_SCRIPT} -p ${NTP_SERVER_IP}
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I also wanted to note that I was able to plug in a little wireless mouse/keyboard USB dongle into the scope, and it worked great. Now I'm not reaching up to the shelf to adjust the scope, and don't have an extra wire in the way to tangle with the probes and everything else. Pretty slick! Kudos to Siglent for that ;D
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In addition to what I wrote up few responses back, I must remind the readers that SDS2000X+ will NOT measure only one left most period in a gate (or screen if gates are not on). It will measure every single period in measurement scopes (screen/gate) and calculate stats on this. There are measurements that are bound to single cycles (and will be many for the measurement scope if many periods are captured) and some will be single for measurement scope because they are, by definition, single value (like Max, P-P etc).
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2N3055 has already answered most of it, yet I want to summarize...
For calculating the frequency a full period is all you need, when you calculate it manually (f=1/T).
A DSO can´t do it ?
But it can measure/calculate amplitude, mean and all other "vertical stuff" ?
Interesting..
Of course one period is sufficient. The problem is, the measurement algorithm needs to know what a period is. For this, it requires at least one sample before and after the relevant zero crossing (or 50% level). If you position the measurement gate precisely, you will miss the samples outside the period, hence the period cannot be determined.
It can measure amplitude, because the transition in the middle of the measurement gate is relevant for this.
It can measure mean, because it doesn't need to detect any transition to calculate that.
When you don´t specify the measure gate, it will measure on the whole screen(lecroy, siglent).
Frequency then will be measure correctly, but mean for example not*.
When you specify the measure gate, about one period, mean will be correctly measured, but frequency not.
interesting, again..
Over the entire record, frequency measurement will indeed be correct as long as at least two complete transitions in the same direction are present.
Amplitude measurement would be correct too.
Mean measurement cannot be correct, as long as the record does not contain an exact integer number of periods. The error decreases with record length; if you measure one and a half period of a standard waveform, then the error will be at its maximum. The difference between e.g. 10 or 10.5 periods will be much smaller.
And why can the "hardware counter" get it ?
Because it gather the "information" over the whole memory and not what´s on the screen ?
Interesting, the third..
The trigger frequency counter is independent of the waveform acquisition.
The trigger frequency counter, as its name implies, counts the trigger events. It analyzes the continuous data stream that goes to the trigger engine. So, it doesn't care for record lengths or measurement gates.
Simple solution to get it all right:
Forget about the measurement gate - it looks like this is not needed for your application. But for the amplitude measurements, like Mean, RMS, Stdev, use the corresponding Cycle-measurements. I.e. "Cycle Mean", "Cycle RMS", Cycle Stdev". This way you'll get a correct frequency measurement and correct amplitude measurements at the same time.
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Hi,
The colleagues are impressed about the sds2k+, so the next two scopes are now on their way... 8)
When the current probe will arrive next week (hopefully), all the stuff will be send to the ext. cal-lab.
I´ll scan the protocols then and present them here, FYI.
Meh...
Instead of two scopes, yesterday only one arrived and the currentprobe, awaiting for the middle of march, is still not here.
:P
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Still the third scope and the currentprobe are not here...
Apart from that, actually the two existing ones are used every day, every time.
"Real Life".... ;)
And there are two things, which are slghtly negative, really only slightly.
First the scope ist light-weight, good building quality but light-weight.
When you try to plug in a probe, you must grab the scope and hold it not to force it to fall behind...
Second the viewing angle, especially vertically, no grid visible when you look slightly above because of the height of the second stage of our working desk.
Both not truly killing things, but a little bit annoying.. ;)
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>> When you try to plug in a probe, you must grab the scope and hold it not to force it to fall behind...
On my bench, I made a wooden vertical 'stand' just behind the instrument. Not only good for when you connect a probe, but also when you use the upper buttons. It's now rock steady!
>> Second the viewing angle, especially vertically, no grid visible when you look slightly above because of the height of the second stage of our working desk.
Indeed, the vertical viewing angle is rather poor (see my comparison document...) This is especially a thing when the scope is higher placed. I am still thinking of trying to make something so it bends slightly downwards towards me, but have not figured out the details yet. It requires some tinkering as the scope must be solid in place (not fall over!), the BNC inputs must have good clearance around them, etc.
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Great question, wouldn't VESA mount threads help?
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Great question, wouldn't VESA mount threads help?
Such a mount would be a great help! But the SDS doesn't have one (and I'm not sure any other test equipment gear I have does..)
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Looking at the back side, it definitely would be an engineer's work of art embedding a VESA there...
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Looking at the back side, it definitely would be an engineer's work of art embedding a VESA there...
There is the Kensington lock...... :popcorn:
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There is the Kensington lock...... :popcorn:
Doesn't provide sufficient fixation to allow operation...
I think the best way would be feet replacement with a custom solution locked on the shelf.
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Use a mouse.
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There is the Kensington lock...... :popcorn:
Doesn't provide sufficient fixation to allow operation...
I think the best way would be feet replacement with a custom solution locked on the shelf.
You are just looking for an excuse to buy a 3d printer.
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You are just looking for an excuse to buy a 3d printer.
Damn, you're good! :)
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For the problem with the viewing vertical angle lecroy got ta simple but effective solution.
The feet are not just for folding up, but can be rotated depending on whether the scope is to be tilted backwards or forwards.
Hope that siglent will follow this simple and "cheap" principle one day.
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The feet are not just for folding up, but can be rotated depending on whether the scope is to be tilted backwards or forwards.
That's exactly the idea I had for the Siglent although one has to take into account the center of mass...
Well done LeCroy! :clap:
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Don't know if you already seen this in the 1.3.9R10 release notes:
3/8/2022 1.3.9R10 Compatible with new hardware (hardware version: 04-xx).
Note:
1. This is a firmware compatible with new hardware. No feature or specification difference between it and 1.3.9R6. It’s not necessary to
upgrade it from 1.3.9R6 to this release.
2. This release cannot be downgraded to former releases.
I would say Siglent has had to change the inside HW due to chip shortage... :-//
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(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1465489;image)
Yes that looks like what happened. There is a new bitstream:
acq_mso_fpga: 7a200tffg1156 - Xilinx Artix-7 XC7A200T
From the naming of the file, could it be replacing all these Spartan 6 FPGAs from the original hardware?
- mso_fpga: 6slx16ftg256 - Xilinx Spartan 6 LX16 XC6SLX16-FTG256
- acq_fpga1: 6slx45fgg676 - Xilinx Spartan 6 LX45 XC6SLX45-FGG676
- acq_fpga2: 6slx45fgg676 - Xilinx Spartan 6 LX45 XC6SLX45-FGG676
Also new file called update_config, with the current firmware version. Could be for the new firmware downgrade protection, but not sure why since the version is embedded in the app anyway. Perhaps for some future scripts?
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Also new file called update_config, with the current firmware version. Could be for the new firmware downgrade protection, but not sure why since the version is embedded in the app anyway. Perhaps for some future scripts?
Also saw that. I agree with those suppositions.
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I managed to backup firmware, configuration, and other files from my new SDS2104X Plus scope.
For the people interested, I am sharing the procedure below:
1. Format a USB stick with FAT or FAT32 file format.
2. Copy the file attached to the USB stick and rename it to "siglent_device_startup.sh".
3. Connect the scope to your network using an ethernet cable.
4. Put the USB stick into the scope.
5. Reboot the scope. If everything is okay till now, scope will start the Telnet server on reboot.
6. If the network is connected you will see a LAN icon at the right-bottom corner of the display, right above the time. Click on that icon. You will see your IP address in the dialog that appears.
7. Download and run Putty.
8. Select “Telnet” as the connection type.
9. Enter the IP address of your scope to Putty. Click “Open”
10. If a command line appears everything is okay till now.
11. Write “login” and press enter
12. Username should be asked. Write “root” and press enter.
13. Password should be asked. Write “siglent_sds1000x_e” and press enter. Don’t ask why the pwd is not sds2000x_plus :)
14. You should see an empty new line. (ignore the error message about the directory change)
15. Run the following commands one line at a time:
mount -o remount,rw,sync /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/
mkdir /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/sds2014xp_backup
mkdir /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/sds2014xp_backup/usr-bin-siglent
mkdir /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/sds2014xp_backup/usr-bin-siglent-usr
cp -R /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0 /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/sds2014xp_backup/
cp -R /usr/bin/siglent/usr/config /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/sds2014xp_backup/
cp -R /usr/bin/siglent/usr/usr /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/sds2014xp_backup/
cp -R /usr/bin/siglent/usr/log /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/sds2014xp_backup/
cp /usr/bin/siglent/usr/webserver_password /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/sds2014xp_backup/
cp /usr/bin/siglent/usr/version.txt /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/sds2014xp_backup/
cp /usr/bin/siglent/usr/lighttpd_error.log /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/sds2014xp_backup/
16. Now you can remove the USB stick and save/check the files in your PC.
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2. Copy the file attached to the USB stick.
Which file ?
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2. Copy the file attached to the USB stick.
Which file ?
Thanks for the heads up Martin. I updated the post.
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Are you happy with the PP215 200MHz probes that came with SDS2000X+?
I made some tests and found some weird results. First of all, shortest rise time my signal generator (SDG2042X) can generate is 8.4 ns. I don't have a better signal generator.
I read about fast edge signal generators in the forum but don't have any yet. So I checked the signal my LiteVNA 64 outputs.
Luckily, it transmits a square wave with a relatively fast edge (scope calculates the rise time around 740ps at over 150 MHz).
So I decided to use LiteVNA 64 to test the probes.
I made a simple setup. I put a BNC converter and probe adapter at S11 output of vna. LiteVNA is configured to output 175 MHz signal.
[attach=1]
I tested the waveform with following:
1- 50 Ohm RG58 BNC cable (to see something very close to the actual signal) (using CH4 DC50)
2- Siglent PP215 Probe at 10X position (using DC1M)
3- Digilent 100 MHz Probe at 10X position (using DC1M)
Here are the screenshots:
1- 50 Ohm RG58 BNC cable
[attach=2]
2- Siglent PP215 Probe
[attach=3]
3- Digilent 100 MHz Probe
[attach=4]
You can see the cheap 100 MHz Digilent probe (from my Analog Discovery 2 kit) images a much better waveform.
How can it be? Am I missing something?
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I think the consensus is that the PP215 probes are "OK", but not exceptional in any way.
I measure a rise time of about 1.7ns using a Leo Bodnar pulse generator (see attached). Note though that the probe capacitance loads the signal and deteriorates the 50 Ohm transmission.
CH1. 50 Ohm BNC cable with DC50
CH3. Siglent PP215 probe at 10x with DC1M
Have you calibrated the probe to the scope with the adjustment screw?
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
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@ozkarah
Possibly a thru-line 50 ohm terminator between the vna and the probe to bnc adapter? It may make a significant difference to the test results in this case. :)
@Vestom I just noticed the same lack in your first image. I think you both should repeat your tests with a thru-line 50 ohm terminator (or at least use a Tee adapter with a 50 ohm terminator) and compare the result against those of the original test.
[EDIT] Oops! Apologies, Vestom for not realising that you were effectively terminating the connection with CH1 set for DC50. :palm:
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And then they were three... ;)
Today the "last" siglent has arrived - and the current probe CP5500 at last.
Monday we send them away for calibrating, I´m curious about the meausered values... 8)
Martin
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And then they were three... ;)
Are you building a farm?
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Yep ;D
I want to have 9pcs....one for every working place.
Question in the round:
Will it be a good idea to run the self-cal procedure before giving them away for the calibration ?
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I think the consensus is that the PP215 probes are "OK", but not exceptional in any way.
Certainly 'good enough' for probes included with a 100M oscilloscope. I'm not sure what the deal is with the comparison to those Digilent models--perhaps they are much better than specified?
To be fair to the PP215 I tested it using the Bodnar pulser connected by a tee directly to the scope set for 50R input--no cable. Then I put the BNC connector in the other side of the tee and tried both a Tek 6139A 8pF 500MHz 10X probe and the PP215. The Tek measured ~10pF and the PP215 ~18pF. The Tek does not fit in the BNC adapter and required the use of a ground lead, so there are a bunch of artifacts from that.
There is a short coupling sleeve for it but that is packed away with another probe. You can still get the basic idea. Essentially I think that if you are using the probe in any ordinary way, your attention to the ground circuit and to circuit loading will vastly outweigh any differences between even a high-end probe like the 6139A and a 'mediocre' one like the PP215. Input capacitance is probably the most important spec as you can see the difference even in a very low impedance source like this one. If you had a circuit with even a 1K source impedance, the loading would be the whole show at these bandwidths.
Edit: I managed to ground the 6139A a bit more respectably, so now you can see that it looks pretty good, mostly due to having half the circuit loading. Note the amplitude error, the PP215 is more accurate in this regard.
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Yep ;D
I want to have 9pcs....one for every working place.
Question in the round:
Will it be a good idea to run the self-cal procedure before giving them away for the calibration ?
Use this as a trap to see how good your Cal shop is. ;)
Ask when you get them back if they ran Self Cal after 30 mins warm up before doing the Performance Verification.
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I think the consensus is that the PP215 probes are "OK", but not exceptional in any way.
Certainly 'good enough' for probes included with a 100M oscilloscope.
100 MHz it is indeed badged however real -3dB BW is much closer to 200 MHz than 100 MHz and the primary reason why the 100 MHz SDS2104X Plus is shipped with PP215 200 MHz probes.
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100 MHz it is indeed badged however real -3dB BW is much closer to 200 MHz than 100 MHz and the primary reason why the 100 MHz SDS2104X Plus is shipped with PP215 200 MHz probes.
While I was happy to get the higher-quality PP215s, they don't really offer any performance advantage over the PP510 other than not falling apart. I'm really curious about those Digilent probes.
Here's an expanded test of the 6139A, PP215 and PP510. The PP510 measures ~16pF, slightly better than the PP215. But the real takeaway IMO is that although the 6139A is clearly superior, it isn't going to matter in the least for the way probes are used the vast majority of the time--even with short leads or grounding springs.
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While I was happy to get the higher-quality PP215s, they don't really offer any performance advantage over the PP510 other than not falling apart.
Falling apart ? :o
FYI there has been a change in Siglent PP510 and PP215 probes only visible that the later have 00 marked on them.
The only change I have noticed is the slightly different compensation range in ones marked 00.
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While I was happy to get the higher-quality PP215s, they don't really offer any performance advantage over the PP510 other than not falling apart.
Falling apart ? :o
FYI there has been a change in Siglent PP510 and PP215 probes only visible that the later have 00 marked on them.
The only change I have noticed is the slightly different compensation range in ones marked 00.
I have the 00 marked ones.
[attach=1]
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@ozkarah
Possibly a thru-line 50 ohm terminator between the vna and the probe to bnc adapter? It may make a significant difference to the test results in this case. :)
@Vestom I just noticed the same lack in your first image. I think you both should repeat your tests with a thru-line 50 ohm terminator (or at least use a Tee adapter with a 50 ohm terminator) and compare the result against those of the original test.
[EDIT] Oops! Apologies, Vestom for not realising that you were effectively terminating the connection with CH1 set for DC50. :palm:
Johny, you are absolutely right. Results are changed a lot after implementing a setup like Vestom or using a 50 Ohm pass-through terminator.
But still PP215 rise time (2.44ns) and imaging is much worse than Digilent 100 MHz (a pair is 29 USD) (1ns). PP510 is image is similar to PP215 similar to bdunham7's findings but rise time is calculated much better (1.18ns).
In the screenshots below reference trace is 50 Ohms cable setup.
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
[attach=4]
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I think I found the reason for the high rise time calculation.
It might be the combination of my signal source (LiteVNA64) and the probe design.
There is an overshoot after a small undershoot in the signal (marked in the red circle). My speculation is it causes a slow and long-lasting overshoot in the probe (PP510 has a similar behavior). And scope takes the top of the overshoot as the maximum point during the 10-90% calculation. Which yields it to calculate a very long rise time.
[attach=1]
The second image shows the reference points scope takes while making the rise time calculation.
[attach=2]
In the third image I setup measurement gates to the beginning of rise and to the point of actual signal amplitude (to compensate for the effect of the overshoot). Then rise time is calculated around 1.10ns which is close to the rise times of the 50 Ohm cable and the Digilent probe.
[attach=3]
Now results are close but still Digilent seems to have a better rise time and imaging capability (look at the previous post).
Do you have any suggestions to test?
BTW, all probes tested are LF calibrated against the 1KHz test signal of the scope.
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Now results are close but still Digilent seems to have a better rise time and imaging capability (look at the previous post).
I wouldn't get too concerned about differences in calculated rise time. I know we all like seemingly objective data, but in this case the picture tells the story.
I don't know why the Digilent probes are so good here. Can you measure the input capacitance?
Also, something to consider is circuit loading. Instead of just a reference, you might try and connect like I did with no cable and just a tee, then display both the reference of the 50R scope input without any other probe attached, along with the 10X probe channel and a live 50R channel. It is possible the Digilent probes are calibrated to display a good square wave at the cost of loading the circuit more. Or, perhaps they are the bargain of the century.
Here is a Probemaster 4910-2 200MHz 100X <3.5pF probe connected this way, note that the reference and live 50R waveforms are very nearly identical. The displayed rise time adn waveform through the probe might not be any more fantastic than the other probes, but the circuit loading is way better. And this is for a very benign ~1Vp-p signal with an effective 25R source impedance, virtually ideal conditions.
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There must be something said about these probe verifications. In order for any characterizations to make sense, they have to be repeatable and comparable to other people's measurements. That is why standards are made.
Passive probes are tested for frequency response with leveled 50Ω generator by making frequency sweep in frequency range in question. Signal has to be sinewave. On output of generator good quality 50Ω pass trough terminator is connected and then passive probe. That makes source impedance 25Ω.
Pulse response is verified with pulse generator. Pulse generator must create signal that has fast edges, but it has to have top of the signal last long enough for all equipment connected to settle. Leo's pulser has 10MHz repetition rate that gives comfortable 50ns low and high for scopes 50-100 MHz or more. For 10-20 MHz scopes it would be better to measure with signal that has 1 MHz repetition rate or slower.
Output of pulse generator should also be loaded with 50Ω pass trough terminator (in line) and then passive probe.
Don't use any "T" connectors with cables going anywhere for any measurements. They create stubs in transmission line, and can influence (distort) the signal that probe sees.
That being said, there are many, many books written about humble passive probes. Input pin of the probe will present as a complex impedance (RLC) to signal node in DUT and will have it's own impedance peaks and lows and resonance (multiple actually with various Q). There will also be resultant complex impedance/resonances when probe internal impedance combines with a node that you are measuring...
That is why people give lot's of money for active probes to minimize parasitic properties of probe inputs..
In short, it is normal for one probe to have "better" behavior compared to other one with one source and worse than same other probe with different signal source.
If you expect that those measurements have merit to show "real life performance", then don't use coax adapter on the tip. Use the probe with a ground clip and see the horror then....
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There must be something said about these probe verifications. In order for any characterizations to make sense, they have to be repeatable and comparable to other people's measurements. That is why standards are made.
Passive probes are tested for frequency response with leveled 50Ω generator by making frequency sweep in frequency range in question. Signal has to be sinewave. On output of generator good quality 50Ω pass trough terminator is connected and then passive probe. That makes source impedance 25Ω.
Pulse response is verified with pulse generator. Pulse generator must create signal that has fast edges, but it has to have top of the signal last long enough for all equipment connected to settle. Leo's pulser has 10MHz repetition rate that gives comfortable 50ns low and high for scopes 50-100 MHz or more. For 10-20 MHz scopes it would be better to measure with signal that has 1 MHz repetition rate or slower.
Output of pulse generator should also be loaded with 50Ω pass trough terminator (in line) and then passive probe.
Don't use any "T" connectors with cables going anywhere for any measurements. They create stubs in transmission line, and can influence (distort) the signal that probe sees.
That being said, there are many, many books written about humble passive probes. Input pin of the probe will present as a complex impedance (RLC) to signal node in DUT and will have it's own impedance peaks and lows and resonance (multiple actually with various Q). There will also be resultant complex impedance/resonances when probe internal impedance combines with a node that you are measuring...
That is why people give lot's of money for active probes to minimize parasitic properties of probe inputs..
In short, it is normal for one probe to have "better" behavior compared to other one with one source and worse than same other probe with different signal source.
If you expect that those measurements have merit to show "real life performance", then don't use coax adapter on the tip. Use the probe with a ground clip and see the horror then....
Thank you 2N3055 for the detailed explanations.
Unfortunately, I don't have a proper HF signal source. So I tried to use the LiteVna.
This time tried to follow your suggestions as much as I can.
I have an SDG2042X (upgraded to 120 Mhz). I used it as a signal source. Synchronized the outputs at 50 Ohm load setting. Connected scope's CH1(DC1M) to CH1 of AWG using pass-through 50 Ohm terminator at the output of AWG. CH4 (DC50) of the scope is directly connected to CH2 of the AWG.
[attachimg=1]
Using 1Hz-120MHz sweep setting at 632 mVpp (~0dBm) I created a sweep signal. Analyzed the 3 probes again. The results are below:
[attachurl=2]
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That is why standards are made.
"..Remember, only when everyone starts at the same time, a comparison of the times makes sense."
(J.M., german comedian)
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There must be something said about these probe verifications. In order for any characterizations to make sense, they have to be repeatable and comparable to other people's measurements. That is why standards are made.
Passive probes are tested for frequency response with leveled 50Ω generator by making frequency sweep in frequency range in question. Signal has to be sinewave. On output of generator good quality 50Ω pass trough terminator is connected and then passive probe. That makes source impedance 25Ω.
Pulse response is verified with pulse generator. Pulse generator must create signal that has fast edges, but it has to have top of the signal last long enough for all equipment connected to settle. Leo's pulser has 10MHz repetition rate that gives comfortable 50ns low and high for scopes 50-100 MHz or more. For 10-20 MHz scopes it would be better to measure with signal that has 1 MHz repetition rate or slower.
Output of pulse generator should also be loaded with 50Ω pass trough terminator (in line) and then passive probe.
Don't use any "T" connectors with cables going anywhere for any measurements. They create stubs in transmission line, and can influence (distort) the signal that probe sees.
That being said, there are many, many books written about humble passive probes. Input pin of the probe will present as a complex impedance (RLC) to signal node in DUT and will have it's own impedance peaks and lows and resonance (multiple actually with various Q). There will also be resultant complex impedance/resonances when probe internal impedance combines with a node that you are measuring...
That is why people give lot's of money for active probes to minimize parasitic properties of probe inputs..
In short, it is normal for one probe to have "better" behavior compared to other one with one source and worse than same other probe with different signal source.
If you expect that those measurements have merit to show "real life performance", then don't use coax adapter on the tip. Use the probe with a ground clip and see the horror then....
Thank you 2N3055 for the detailed explanations.
Unfortunately, I don't have a proper HF signal source. So I tried to use the LiteVna.
This time tried to follow your suggestions as much as I can.
I have an SDG2042X (upgraded to 120 Mhz). I used it as a signal source. Synchronized the outputs at 50 Ohm load setting. Connected scope's CH1(DC1M) to CH1 of AWG using pass-through 50 Ohm terminator at the output of AWG. CH4 (DC50) of the scope is directly connected to CH2 of the AWG.
(Attachment Link)
Using 1Hz-120MHz sweep setting at 632 mVpp (~0dBm) I created a sweep signal. Analyzed the 3 probes again. The results are below:
(Attachment Link)
That is nice work!
And now you can see that all probes tested have amplitude flatness inside 1 dB. And that particular Digilent probe has very good flatness up to 100MHz at that source and load impedance...
But in reality they are all good enough, because signal as seen will be more influenced by source than anything else... As I said, try probes with a grounding clip...
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There must be something said about these probe verifications. In order for any characterizations to make sense, they have to be repeatable and comparable to other people's measurements. That is why standards are made.
Passive probes are tested for frequency response with leveled 50Ω generator by making frequency sweep in frequency range in question. Signal has to be sinewave. On output of generator good quality 50Ω pass trough terminator is connected and then passive probe. That makes source impedance 25Ω.
Pulse response is verified with pulse generator. Pulse generator must create signal that has fast edges, but it has to have top of the signal last long enough for all equipment connected to settle. Leo's pulser has 10MHz repetition rate that gives comfortable 50ns low and high for scopes 50-100 MHz or more. For 10-20 MHz scopes it would be better to measure with signal that has 1 MHz repetition rate or slower.
Output of pulse generator should also be loaded with 50Ω pass trough terminator (in line) and then passive probe.
Don't use any "T" connectors with cables going anywhere for any measurements. They create stubs in transmission line, and can influence (distort) the signal that probe sees.
That being said, there are many, many books written about humble passive probes. Input pin of the probe will present as a complex impedance (RLC) to signal node in DUT and will have it's own impedance peaks and lows and resonance (multiple actually with various Q). There will also be resultant complex impedance/resonances when probe internal impedance combines with a node that you are measuring...
That is why people give lot's of money for active probes to minimize parasitic properties of probe inputs..
In short, it is normal for one probe to have "better" behavior compared to other one with one source and worse than same other probe with different signal source.
If you expect that those measurements have merit to show "real life performance", then don't use coax adapter on the tip. Use the probe with a ground clip and see the horror then....
Thank you 2N3055 for the detailed explanations.
Unfortunately, I don't have a proper HF signal source. So I tried to use the LiteVna.
This time tried to follow your suggestions as much as I can.
I have an SDG2042X (upgraded to 120 Mhz). I used it as a signal source. Synchronized the outputs at 50 Ohm load setting. Connected scope's CH1(DC1M) to CH1 of AWG using pass-through 50 Ohm terminator at the output of AWG. CH4 (DC50) of the scope is directly connected to CH2 of the AWG.
(Attachment Link)
Using 1Hz-120MHz sweep setting at 632 mVpp (~0dBm) I created a sweep signal. Analyzed the 3 probes again. The results are below:
(Attachment Link)
That is nice work!
And now you can see that all probes tested have amplitude flatness inside 1 dB. And that particular Digilent probe has very good flatness up to 100MHz at that source and load impedance...
But in reality they are all good enough, because signal as seen will be more influenced by source than anything else... As I said, try probes with a grounding clip...
Thank you 2N3055. I am very surprised that a very cheap (25 USD/pair) 100MHz probe outperforms these PP215 200 MHz probes that came with the scope (which is supposed to have a good match). And, even a 100 MHz probe from the same brand (PP510) performs better.
Actually, my main concern is if there is any possibility that the probes are from a faulty batch or a kind of clone.
If someone here has the same setup I would love to see the results.
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If someone here has the same setup I would love to see the results.
You did a lot of work for that nice picture, I took the easy way out and used noise w/ FFT. Same AWG and same setup--50R terminator + BNC adapter on one channel, just a cable and the scope set to 50R on the other.
The noise function on the SDG2042X isn't exactly flat, but it is easy to compare the deviation between the traces. I threw in a few other random probes as well.
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I have an SDG2042X (upgraded to 120 Mhz). I used it as a signal source. Synchronized the outputs at 50 Ohm load setting. Connected scope's CH1(DC1M) to CH1 of AWG using pass-through 50 Ohm terminator at the output of AWG. CH4 (DC50) of the scope is directly connected to CH2 of the AWG.
...
Using 1Hz-120MHz sweep setting at 632 mVpp (~0dBm) I created a sweep signal. Analyzed the 3 probes again.
Nice measrements!
Here come some remarks:
Contrary to popular believe, probe bandwidth is nothing like e.g. scope bandwidth. There is no clear 3 dB corner frequency, where the probe output begins to fall at a constant rate. Essentially, probe bandwidth only means that the manufacturer is not willing to guarantee anything for frequencies above.
It has been demonstrated quite often by now, that even a humble 100 MHz probe can outperform a 500 MHz probe on certain instruments and in certain circumstances.
As has been pointed out already, the true performance characteristics in any practical setup will be determined by many parameters, of which the specified probe bandwidth is certainly the least important. The input capacitance is about the only obvious quality criterion – for practical use – not for the industry-standard test using a 25 ohms source.
What is important is the frequency compensation. All probes have a compensation trimmer for the LF (low frequency) compensation. This is for adjusting for best pulse edge fidelity with the internal 1 kHz square wave calibration signal. But this only affects the probe gain at higher frequencies without changing the frequency response. In other words, if you ignore everything below about 1 MHz, then the low frequency compensation is nothing but a gain control.
A passive probe is a rather complex design, and it needs more compensation measures to work properly at high frequencies. This is because of the input impedance of the DSO, which is certainly much more complex than just 1 megohm in parallel with 17 pF. So you can have either probes that are optimized for the oscilloscope model or the universal ones, that provide two or even three trimmers for optimizing the frequency response on different instruments.
Your measurements show that the HF-compensation happens to be just perfect for the combination of SDS2000X+ and the Diligent probe, while it is rather mediocre for the low end Siglent probes – up to the point where the rise time measurements are seriously impacted.
The reason for this would be that the PP510 and PP215 have been designed for the SDS1000X-E series DSOs, where they both perform pretty good. See reply #56 in the thread linked below:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434665/#msg1434665)
You can also see from my tests that the performance of the PP510 and PP215 is within about 0.5 dB up to 100 MHz and pretty much identical above that. Even though my tests have been carried out with early samples of these probes, I can’t believe that performance has changed significantly since then. Maybe you could repeat your test, but instead of using the 1 kHz square wave for calibrating the probes, you could try to use a 100 MHz sine wave and adjust both probes for 0 dBm response in your scenario. After that, the results should be pretty much identical for both probe models.
So the PP510 and PP215 probes have been optimized for the SDS1000X-E series and are certainly not the preferred solution for higher class oscilloscopes like the SDS2000X Plus. Yet in practical terms this hardly matters because … see next paragraph.
All this is just an academic discussion, because in any real-world scenario a passive high impedance probe like the ones discussed here isn’t going to be very useful for high frequencies anyway. Input impedances in the realm of 10 pF mean that any probing above 100 MHz requires a source impedance below 160 ohms, just to keep the measurement error below 50%. Once you’re at source impedances that low, a passive low impedance probe (which essentially is just a resistive match to a 50 ohms coax line) usually is the much better solution.
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All this is just an academic discussion, because in any real-world scenario a passive high impedance probe like the ones discussed here isn’t going to be very useful for high frequencies anyway. Input impedances in the realm of 10 pF mean that any probing above 100 MHz requires a source impedance below 160 ohms, just to keep the measurement error below 50%. Once you’re at source impedances that low, a passive low impedance probe (which essentially is just a resistive match to a 50 ohms coax line) usually is the much better solution.
This! And when probing digital signals the bandwidth of the edges is easily beyond 100MHz and the signal will be distorted by the capacitance of your passive probe.
Once had to find a troublesome glitch on a 16 MHz clock signal (AC logic), which disappeared when attaching the venerable P6139A 8pF 500MHz probe. Had to use a 50 Ohm BNC cable with a resistor in series at the tip to see it (remember to put the scope in 50 Ohm mode). That was before we got the hugely expensive active differential probes good for several GHz ;D
I can highly recommend making your own cheap Lo-Z probe, if you need to see signals beyond 100 MHz. I should probably myself make some small PCBs with a 2.5k in series, a 51R in parallel and SMA connector for cheap high speed x100 Lo-Z probes...
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Once had to find a troublesome glitch on a 16 MHz clock signal (AC logic), which disappeared when attaching the venerable P6139A 8pF 500MHz probe. Had to use a 50 Ohm BNC cable with a resistor in series at the tip to see it (remember to put the scope in 50 Ohm mode). That was before we got the hugely expensive active differential probes good for several GHz ;D
I can highly recommend making your own cheap Lo-Z probe, if you need to see signals beyond 100 MHz. I should probably myself make some small PCBs with a 2.5k in series, a 51R in parallel and SMA connector for cheap high speed x100 Lo-Z probes...
I've had issues like that with as low as ~4 MHz clocks. In addition to homemade, keep an eye out for the <1pF Tektronix P6156 (and the rare 20X attenuator) and the older ProbeMaster 100X 4910-2 which are <3pF.
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@Vestom,
There's no need to add a 50 ohm resistor across the co-ax at the Lo-Z probe end if it's terminated in a matching impedance at the scope end. You'll be halving your already attenuated signal voltage for no real benefit otherwise. A 50 ohm transmission line, terminated with a purely resistive 50 ohm load will look just like a 50 ohm resistor
Matching impedances only really matter when joining lengths of transmission line or something like a passive filter designed to function with a specific impedance load or source. In this case, the impedance of your source can be anything you care to choose (a 2.5KR resistor in your case :) ), including Lo-Z voltage sources and Hi-Z constant current sources.
You can simply use whatever attenuating series resistor is needed in this case - the tricky bit is dealing with keeping the probe's ground connection as short as possible to minimise 'ground bounce' and the effective area of the ground loop minimised to reduce stray noise ingress.
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There's no need to add a 50 ohm resistor across the co-ax at the Lo-Z probe end if it's terminated in a matching impedance at the scope end. You'll be halving your already attenuated signal voltage for no real benefit otherwise. A 50 ohm transmission line, terminated with a purely resistive 50 ohm load will look just like a 50 ohm resistor
In theory you are absolutely right. :D However, the scope is not a perfect 50 ohm termination but is typically slightly capacitive (specified to 17pF for SD2kX+) yielding a slight mismatch and a small reflection, which the source termination will dampen. Previously, I have just used a leaded resistor soldered to the end of the cable (without source termination), but did then also see some artifacts, which could be replicated in spice. But I guess, experimentation will show, whether a small PCB and a source termination provides any real benefit. :-/O At least using a small PCB as a solder-in probe tip connection would actually be nice.
the tricky bit is dealing with keeping the probe's ground connection as short as possible to minimise 'ground bounce' and the effective area of the ground loop minimised to reduce stray noise ingress.
Oh, so true! This is why it is important to consider placement of test points when doing PCB layout - or having the luxury of RF connectors like MMCX or UFL for test points.
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However, the scope is not a perfect 50 ohm termination but is typically slightly capacitive (specified to 17pF for SD2kX+) yielding a slight mismatch and a small reflection, ...
Thankfully not true. If the input capacitance of 17 pF would still be present even in 50 ohms mode, it could hardly be useful at frequencies above 100 MHz.
This is also the reason why an external terminator on a high-Z scope input can never replace the genuine 50 ohms input mode.
It is still true that the 50 ohms input mode is not perfect. Yet the VSWR stays below 1:1.5 at the specified bandwidth (500 MHz in case of the SDS2000X Plus).
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It is still true that the 50 ohms input mode is not perfect. Yet the VSWR stays below 1:1.5 at the specified bandwidth (500 MHz in case of the SDS2000X Plus).
Is that "good enough" for a Z0 probe without additional 50 Ohm termination of the cable's source end?
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Is that "good enough" for a Z0 probe without additional 50 Ohm termination of the cable's source end?
It is if you have reasonable expectations...
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Today I prepared the scopes for sending away.
I´ve decided to let them make a self-cal before packaging.
So I got two scopes on the desk, both on.
All three are new, but the last arrived is "newer"... ;)
Left scope:
Software 1.3.9R6
U-Boot 5.0
FPGA 2021-07-16
CPLD 03
Hardware 02-05
Right scope:
Software 1.3.9R10
U-Boot 5.3
FPGA 2022-02-08
CPLD 05
Hardware 04-05
Nothing really surprising...except one thing.
The self-cal routine takes siginificant longer on the newer one.
I´ve didn´t start them at the same time, maybe 15...20seconds delay, but it takes much longer than the 20s until the newer one was finished.
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My SDS2104X plus, bought January 2021 does not start any more.
When pressing the power button at the front, the button lights up, but no fan, no screen, no further button lights.
Same after disconnecting all connection or trying different power cord, which are double checked and known good anyway.
Pressing lit button for some seconds makes it to unlight again.
I found the hint and pressed "Math" repeatedly during power on, but with no effect.
https://siglentna.com/operating-tip/oscilloscope-hardware-reset/ (https://siglentna.com/operating-tip/oscilloscope-hardware-reset/)
Yesterday it run as usual, normal power off and shut down.
Any ideas?
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It should still be under warranty, so I wouldn't muck around with it too much.
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Sure. Bought at a listed dealer.
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Thankfully not true. If the input capacitance of 17 pF would still be present even in 50 ohms mode, it could hardly be useful at frequencies above 100 MHz.
This is also the reason why an external terminator on a high-Z scope input can never replace the genuine 50 ohms input mode.
It is still true that the 50 ohms input mode is not perfect. Yet the VSWR stays below 1:1.5 at the specified bandwidth (500 MHz in case of the SDS2000X Plus).
Hmm. Yes, that must be true, 17 pF is rather high and only about 94 Ohms at 100 MHz :o. I wonder what tricks they do in the front end to reduce the capacitance and improve the match in 50 Ohms mode?
I also looked up the ~20 year old Tek TDS3054, which is specified for 13 pF, and is bit disappointed that a 15-20 year newer scope has such a high capacitance :P
(Though, it is mostly an issue when not using compensated probes...)
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Lecroy WR9054 17pf, Tek MSO4 13pf, Keysight 3000 14pf....Nothing uncommon.
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RTB2000: 9pF - it can be done ;)
(But that scope does not have a built in 50 Ohm selector, which is arguably more important...)
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so announced 'Affordable' scope HP54504A from the 90s: 50 Ohms switchable, 7pf.
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Thankfully not true. If the input capacitance of 17 pF would still be present even in 50 ohms mode, it could hardly be useful at frequencies above 100 MHz.
This is also the reason why an external terminator on a high-Z scope input can never replace the genuine 50 ohms input mode.
It is still true that the 50 ohms input mode is not perfect. Yet the VSWR stays below 1:1.5 at the specified bandwidth (500 MHz in case of the SDS2000X Plus).
Hmm. Yes, that must be true, 17 pF is rather high and only about 94 Ohms at 100 MHz :o. I wonder what tricks they do in the front end to reduce the capacitance and improve the match in 50 Ohms mode?
I also looked up the ~20 year old Tek TDS3054, which is specified for 13 pF, and is bit disappointed that a 15-20 year newer scope has such a high capacitance :P
(Though, it is mostly an issue when not using compensated probes...)
On 1 MΩ input, Keysight 3104T (1GHz version) is 14 pF. SDS6104H12 is 15pF. SDS2000X HD is 16pF.
There are attenuators, switches, dual path amplifiers, input protection.....
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On 1 MΩ input, Keysight 3104T (1GHz version) is 14 pF. SDS6104H12 is 15pF. SDS2000X HD is 16pF.
There are attenuators, switches, dual path amplifiers, input protection.....
And if you measure it with a network analyzer, then likely you even see a weird curve on the smith chart (particularly at higher frequencies) which cannot be modeled with a single lumped capacitor at all, but an equivalent circuit were rather complex.
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On 1 MΩ input, Keysight 3104T (1GHz version) is 14 pF. SDS6104H12 is 15pF. SDS2000X HD is 16pF.
There are attenuators, switches, dual path amplifiers, input protection.....
And if you measure it with a network analyzer, then likely you even see a weird curve on the smith chart (particularly at higher frequencies) which cannot be modeled with a single lumped capacitor at all, but an equivalent circuit were rather complex.
I remember I did exactly that. With a NanoVNA only, but for these low frequencies that wouldn't matter much. I kind of remember the input impedance in 50 Ohm mode definitely wasn't "real 50", not even "complex 50" but at least it was close, though slightly capacitive.
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Hi,
Measured the bodnar pulse with internal 50 ohm termination and with external termination, a very good (and expensive) one from huber+suhner.
The overshoots when using the internal are the results of reflecting effects and doesn´t have to do with the input capacitance when using 1M, right ?
BTW, I´ve stumbled over a "paper" from siglent, determing the bandwith of an oscilloscope - Didn´t notice this so far..
https://www.siglenteu.com/operating-tip/determine-bandwidth-scope-require-application/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwyMiTBhDKARIsAAJ-9VtTWOkYkjCQzlYbWoGPkYQIbrKcR8-9IhRSgbyJIcqNY_aindOG4bkaAr0TEALw_wcB (https://www.siglenteu.com/operating-tip/determine-bandwidth-scope-require-application/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwyMiTBhDKARIsAAJ-9VtTWOkYkjCQzlYbWoGPkYQIbrKcR8-9IhRSgbyJIcqNY_aindOG4bkaAr0TEALw_wcB)
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Measured the bodnar pulse with internal 50 ohm termination and with external termination, a very good (and expensive) one from huber+suhner.
Btw, is it actually possible to display something like FFT(dX/dt) as math trace?
If so, it were interesting how that looks, when applied to Bodnar traces, for a 0...1000MHz span, with flat top window.
(Connecting the tips of the comb's teeth should approximately show the corresponding frequency response.)
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(because when we buy it, only one thing is certain)
In this case I knew it before.. ;)
Edit:
Btw, is it actually possible to display something like FFT(dX/dt) as math trace?
Tomorrow
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Btw, is it actually possible to display something like FFT(dX/dt) as math trace?
If so, it were interesting how that looks, when applied to Bodnar traces, for a 0...1000MHz span, with flat top window.
(Connecting the tips of the comb's teeth should approximately show the corresponding frequency response.)
Yes you have advanced math... You pretty much write just that..
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Yes you have advanced math... You pretty much write just that..
More background. The question just came into my mind when I saw yet another Bodnar trace:
Is it possible to display the frequency response directly with a math function, if the stimulus is an (almost ideal) square wave from a Bodnar pulser?
The fourier spectrum of an ideal 10MHz square wave is a comb, with teeth at 10, 30, 50,... MHz (-> classical square wave harmonics).
The magnitude of the teeth follows a 1/f response. Multiplication of each tooth by its frequency would therefore result in a "flat comb", with teeth of equal height.
It the spectrum of the stimulus is a "flat comb", then the deviation of the tips from a horizontal line (after the frontend) reflects the frequency response.
Since it is a linear system, the frequency-dependent scaling of the stimulus spectrum can also be done after the DUT.
This leads to the following 4 approaches, and I wonder which of them could be realized via supported math expressions:
FFT(X) * f [i.e.multiplication of each frequency bin by its freqency, in linear space, not dB]
FFT(X) * Y [where Y is a constant, pre-defined, "hand-crafted" frequency domain trace, and the multiplication happens in linear space]
FFT(X) + Z [where Z is a constant, pre-defined frequency domain trace in dB, and the addition happens in dB space]
FFT(dX/dt) [since multiplication by frequency in the frequency domain is equivalent to differentiation in the time domain]
Potential sources of inaccuracy/untertainty are still:
* potential aliasing (if >= 1GHz is not yet sufficiently attenuated)
* The exact implementatin of dX/dt is not known, and it is supposed to be a numeric approximation
* Bodnar pulse is fast, but still not an ideal rectangle, so the stimulus spectrum already has a small a priori roll-off from the ideal 1/f comb spectrum in the region of interest
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Yes you have advanced math... You pretty much write just that..
More background. The question just came into my mind when I saw yet another Bodnar trace:
Is it possible to display the frequency response directly with a math function, if the stimulus is an (almost ideal) square wave from a Bodnar pulser?
The fourier spectrum of an ideal 10MHz square wave is a comb, with teeth at 10, 30, 50,... MHz (-> classical square wave harmonics).
The magnitude of the teeth follows a 1/f response. Multiplication of each tooth by its frequency would therefore result in a "flat comb", with teeth of equal height.
It the spectrum of the stimulus is a "flat comb", then the deviation of the tips from a horizontal line (after the frontend) reflects the frequency response.
Since it is a linear system, the frequency-dependent scaling of the stimulus spectrum can also be done after the DUT.
This leads to the following 4 approaches, and I wonder which of them could be realized via supported math expressions:
FFT(X) * f [i.e.multiplication of each frequency bin by its freqency, in linear space, not dB]
FFT(X) * Y [where Y is a constant, pre-defined, "hand-crafted" frequency domain trace, and the multiplication happens in linear space]
FFT(X) + Z [where Z is a constant, pre-defined frequency domain trace in dB, and the addition happens in dB space]
FFT(dX/dt) [since multiplication by frequency in the frequency domain is equivalent to differentiation in the time domain]
Potential sources of inaccuracy/untertainty are still:
* potential aliasing (if >= 1GHz is not yet sufficiently attenuated)
* The exact implementatin of dX/dt is not known, and it is supposed to be a numeric approximation
* Bodnar pulse is fast, but still not an ideal rectangle, so the stimulus spectrum already has a small a priori roll-off from the ideal 1/f comb spectrum in the region of interest
As I said FFT(dX/dt) you can directly type in into math channel. And it will show you curve gain of frequency response. dX/dt implementation will, of course, be numeric implementation and it works fine. Problem with any dX/dt function is that it "amplifies" high frequency noise (because obvious reasons) so it will be "nervous". That can be "tamed" by using FFT averaging.
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Hi,
I type this:
FFT(dX/dt)
With X = Channel 1 into the line.
Then you will see this on the attached pic below.
Maybe it´s the wrong quotation (I´m not into FFT math) because when you switch for example the bandwith of C1 from full to 20Mhz nothing siginificant will happen.
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FFT(Average(d(C1)/dt))
Make note that you want to look at spectrum of single pulse...
So you need to put only one rise edge on the screen..
Play with timebase for best results..
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Play with timebase for best results..
This is what I get on different timebases...
Note the information(Sa, curr. pts, delta-f) inbetween the fft area on the righter side
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Then you will see this on the attached pic below.
Is this really full bandwidth? Looks like a digital filter was applied (4-tap moving avarage?). Or is it an artifact of the dX/dt approximation if it is not applied to interpolated+upsampled data? How does does FFT(C1) look for comparison (without dX/d)t?
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@2N3055,
Agree, as only one rise edge when the derivative is taken should be the Impulse Function from an ideal squarewave edge. The FFT output of an Impulse Function as the stimulus for an arbitrary linear Network revels the Transfer Function of said Network. Here the scope is the Network since it's displaying the output waveform. This is Linear Network, and the Network excited by a derivative waveform is the same as the applying the waveform, then taking the derivative of the Network output as is the case for scope, also one must also take into account the sampling function (Sinc).
Best,
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How does does FFT(C1) look for comparison (without dX/d)t?
Like this...
(General question: Only 10 markers avaible?)
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Like this...
This looks more or less as expected. Then it is likely the dX/dt operator which garbles the spectrum :(
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But why ?
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(General question: Only 10 markers available?)
Yes just 10 however rather than assigning them to descending Peaks you can assign each and every one to any frequency of choice.
Check out the Marker menu for options. ;)
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Thanks, Rob.
Do you have a clue why I´m not getting the same results like 2N3055, although I mostly use the same settings?
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Thanks, Rob.
Do you have a clue why I´m not getting the same results like 2N3055, although I mostly use the same settings?
You want same result... Do you also have same SDS6104 H12 Pro (the model is not even available outside of China and will never be available according to current knowledge. Its price in China is 192680 RMB) ;)
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Do you have a clue why I´m not getting the same results like 2N3055, although I mostly use the same settings?
A flat frequency response up to 1Ghz is indeed strange.
I'd expect at least a noticeable amount of roll-off between 500MHz and 1GHz.
Maybe you can zoom in vertically to see more details?
20ns/div seems to be the point where it starts to interpolate (at least the displayed FFT sample rate of 50Gsa/s suggests that).
25x oversampling is hopefully more than enough, in order that the observed low-pass filter effect of the dX/dt operator becomes negligible (but who knows for sure).
(Ideally, sinc interpolation should not generate any frequencies >1GHz, so the 1..25Ghz range of the oversampled spectrum should be empty, except for noise that happens to be distributed).
Frequency resolution is a bit poor. At 50GSa/s, up to 4096 FFT points could be used, leading to a window size of 4096/50e9=81.92ns then, which is still small enough to cover only a single impulse. This leads to a resolution (frequency bin spacing) of ~12MHz then.
For further debugging, you could also display the differentiated edge, Average(d(C1)/dt), as 2N3055 did.
Maybe also d(Average(C1))/dt, to see if that makes a difference?
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Hi,
(nearly) same settings before, plus F1= d(c1)/dt and playing around with the bandwith.
Note that there is no significant difference inbetween full, 200Mhz, 20Mhz.
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Note that the size of your FFT window is only ~10ns, since you only use 512 FFT points @ 50 GSa/s. Not much headroom for mis-placement.
Can't recognize the grid in the screenshot - is the impulse completely inside the FFT window, and approximately centered in the FFT window? Can you use more FFT points, say 4096?
[ 2N3055 had a ~80ns window (2048 points @ 25 GSa/s), therefore exact placement is not so critical. But it should not be much more than 80ns either, if the aim is to capture a single impulse only. ]
Basically The F1 trace looks resonable. To see more details you should display it with a larger amplitude.zeof ~80ns
EDIT: And for 20MHz you definitively need the max. feasible window size of 80ns. Note how long the edge of the square wave needs to settle to a stable level. The whole settling time is part of the "pulse width" of the F1 trace, which must fall into the FFT window.
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Hi,
Can you use more FFT points, say 4096?
Yep, when increasing the timebase. (Preadjustments : Max memory size 2M for FFT), doing this will have the known result of having a "McDonalds M" symbol on the screen.
Interesting thing(for me) : At 50ns/div FFT got 512pts, at 20ns/div rises to 1024pts, at 10ns falling back to 512pts... ???
Unfortunately, F-"channels" do not allow vertical fine-adjustement.
The F1 trace looks resonable. To see more details you should display it with a larger amplitude.
Here it is..
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Hey there! I've been doing some level of analysis with voltage dividers and my logic 8 but I feel like it's time to upgrade. I'm heavily considering the SDS2000x plus line (I see the info about unlocking capabillities) but notice the lowest end model has been discontinued. Is this something siglent does normally, or could this indicate a newer line coming (I didn't find results in my searches)? In looking at their release schedule it typically seems pretty agressive, I think I'm just looking for some reassurance before I pull the trigger on the SDS2104X Plus.
Struggling to choose probes to pair, definitely going to grab the LA, but probes capable of sniffing around high frequency ic/ic communications would be nice. Seems the active probes for siglent aren't compatible with the sds2000x.
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I'm heavily considering the SDS2000x line (I see the info about unlocking capabillities) but notice the lowest end model has been discontinued.
From the 2000XPlus Line ???
I think you mean the X without plus...
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Sorry I did mean the Plus. Edited for clarity.
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Hey there! I've been doing some level of analysis with voltage dividers and my logic 8 but I feel like it's time to upgrade. I'm heavily considering the SDS2000x line (I see the info about unlocking capabillities) but notice the lowest end model has been discontinued. Is this something siglent does normally, or could this indicate a newer line coming (I didn't find results in my searches)? In looking at their release schedule it typically seems pretty agressive, I think I'm just looking for some reassurance before I pull the trigger on the SDS2104X Plus.
Struggling to choose probes to pair, definitely going to grab the LA, but probes capable of sniffing around high frequency ic/ic communications would be nice. Seems the active probes for siglent aren't compatible with the sds2000x.
Welcome to the forum.
2000X Plus range replaces the SDS2000X range which was developed from the SDS2000 range, released in 2013.
For active probes SDS5000X models and higher have Siglents S-Bus that supports their own probes and some Tek and LeCroy probes using Siglents active probe adapters.
Currently SDS2104X Plus is the best priced offering however doesn't support active probes unless they have their own power source and only a BNC connector.
Have a crash around in the EU/US website where once you click on Products, then on the far right of the dropdown is the Discontinued model list:
https://www.siglenteu.com/# (https://www.siglenteu.com/#)
https://siglentna.com/ (https://siglentna.com/)
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Thanks so much! Happy to be here. Thanks for the info! From what I've been reading I guess I want to minimize capacitance of my probes if I intend to work with high speed signals. Seems like the SP3050A don't present the greatest value?
Good idea, thanks! Did I miss it on the NA site or do they hide it for some reason?
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Thanks so much! Happy to be here. Thanks for the info! From what I've been reading I guess I want to minimize capacitance of my probes if I intend to work with high speed signals. Seems like the SP3050A don't present the greatest value?
There are other ways of skinning the low capacitance cat !
Most of Siglents better scopes have high sensitivity inputs so for signals in your normal working range you can reduce tip capacitance by using 100:1 probes.
For shits and giggles some years back I did a short vid showing using 1:1, 10:1, 100:1 and 1000:1 probes on the 3V probe compensation output while using the little X-E's webserver but you get the idea......
https://youtu.be/W30AqcDQL18
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Hi,
After again several tryings and adjustments, I giving it up to reproduce the results (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4156987/#msg4156987) 2N3055 was getting.
Maybe there is still a bug in the math functions or the sds2k+ are simply not capable to do this - Or it´s me who´s too dumb for it.
With the last I could live.. 8)
EDIT:
Am I the only one who owns a bodnar AND a sds2k+....Can´t believe it, so guys feel free to replicate the measures...
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Is it possible that the dx/dt (F1) function is not working correctly or is not calculating with the data displayed by C4? I think the maximum slope of C4 is not at -0.5ns but at 0.0ns.
Function d(Avg(C4))/dt (F2) fits better.
What I noticed while trying it out is that the formula editor always displays the last formula entered and not the current formula of function 1 or 2.
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Is it possible that the dx/dt (F1) function is not working correctly or is not calculating with the data displayed by C4? I think the maximum slope of C4 is not at -0.5ns but at 0.0ns.
Function d(Avg(C4))/dt (F2) fits better.
What I noticed while trying it out is that the formula editor always displays the last formula entered and not the current formula of function 1 or 2.
I checked the manual to see what d/dt is really supposed to do (see screenshot).
Do your F1 and F2 possibly use different dx for the finite difference approximation?
EDIT:
I find it actually a bit strange that delta t is specified in div units, where 1 div = 50 pixels.
(I'd rather expected to specify either number of samples, or seconds.)
And I also wonder whether 1 div = 50 pixels can be correct, if the screen has 10 div and screen width is 1024 pixels?
Sorry, was obviously an old version of the manual - the new one specifies dx in points.
Replaced screenshot. Still it sais 1 point = 0.01 div. So dx is still specified in 1/100 div units (and neither samples nor seconds)?
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I checked the manual to see what d/dt is really supposed to do (see screenshot).
If dx is (say) 4 samples, then the fnite difference approximation is equivalent to a convolution with the FIR kernel [ -0.25 0 0 0 0.25 ].
The corresponding transfer function in the frequency domain is attached.
For a true differentiation, the magnitude of the corresponding transfer function in the frequency domain were proportional to frequency.
As we can see, for the finite difference approximation this is only granted for frequencies up to about fs/20.
At higher frequencies, the applied transfer function has nothing to do with differentiation any more. The same also happended here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4156843/#msg4156843) (obviously dx happened to be 4 samples here).
So it is only suitable for low frequency signals (with highest frequency content < fs/20 fs/(5*dx), or for data that have been interpolated/oversampled by a factor of >= 20 5*dx.
EDIT: Generalized 20 to 5*dx, where dx is in samples.
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OK.....
And what´s the reason why the same formula "works" on 2N3055´s scope (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4156987/#msg4156987) ? More samplerate?
I have the suspicion rf-loop was right (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4158136/#msg4158136) ;)
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If my understanding is correct, for a passive probe to accept such high bandwidth it needs to be fairly high quality as it will be dealing with pretty significant power? I'm struggling to find much in the 500mhz 100/1000x range.
The P5100a seem like they tick a lot of the marks, but will I really benefit from such expensive probes? It does seem they can do around 10V at 500mhz which should be plenty for most signals I'm trying to identify and interact with, but am I missing something or is this the going rate for a high BW, low impedance, 100x probe?
If I'm going to be spending another 2.4k+ on a set of 4 probes, could I get a better scope that has more capable probes included?
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but am I missing something or is this the going rate for a high BW, low impedance, 100x probe?
If I'm going to be spending another 2.4k+ on a set of 4 probes, could I get a better scope that has more capable probes included?
I think what you are missing is that 500MHz with a high-impedance probe is not something anyone normally tries to do. (I'm assuming you didn't mean 'low impedance') If you relax your requirements to a more reasonable 200MHz/6pF, then the generic eBay P4250 or P2301C models will probably suffice. If you must have 500MHz with a passive probe, you might look for a used P6156 which is a low impedance (500R, 1000R, 5K), low capacitance (<1pF), high BW (3.5GHz) model that works with your 50R scope input. You have to deal with the fairly low input resistance, but at 500MHz the capacitance dominates anyway.
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Whoops, totally was thinking capacitance, my bad. I'll look around at some of the other models you've mentioned, but figure it might be worth buying one pair that will cover max capabilities of the device and never have to worry about it.
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but figure it might be worth buying one pair that will cover max capabilities of the device and never have to worry about it.
IMO definitely not worth it and you'll always have to worry about it no matter what you do! :)
For one thing, even if you get those big$ probes, unless you have a special, exact way of grounding it at your source, your signal will be pretty distorted by ~200MHz anyway.
Your time and money would be better spent scrounging up some type of active probes.
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Awesome. I really appreciate all of the input. Will grab the siglent and take it for a whirl in the next week or two hopefully and go from there.
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OK.....
And what´s the reason why the same formula "works" on 2N3055´s scope (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4156987/#msg4156987) ? More samplerate?
I have the suspicion rf-loop was right (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4158136/#msg4158136) ;)
At <= 20ns/div your interpolated sample rate was reported >= 50GSa/s, which is >= 25x oversampled.
As I said, with this amount of interpolation/oversampling, the d/dt approximation is OK (unless you would increase the step size significantly) -- and your d(C1)/dt trace looks fine at 10ns/div.
Next thing to investigate would be the next intermediate sub-expression Average(d(C1)/dt)), or d(Average(C1))/dt. I'd display traces for both ones, to see if it makes a difference.
Both should look like d(C1)/dt. Ideally all three ones should differ only be the amount of noise.
I'm still irritated that the number of FFT points cannot be set manually to the desired value. More points were actually essential. Is there possibly a limitation if the source of the FFT is a math sub-expression?
What also comes into my mind, btw: Which window function did you select for the FFT? Since you have only 512 points (and ~100MHz frequency spacing), don't use a window function which "smears" adjacent bins, but rather stay with rectangular window.
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Hi,
Tried all the FFT windows with more or less effects.
What the points concerns, there is, for me, a strange behaviour to see.
The shorter the timebase gets, the less memorypoints you got, the less FFT points you got too, all make sense.
But...
At 50ns you have 512 points, at 20ns 1024, at 10ns back to 512 ????
I didn´t change anything inbetween, just playing with the timebase.
I'm still irritated that the number of FFT points cannot be set manually to the desired value. More points were actually essential. Is there possibly a limitation if the source of the FFT is a math sub-expression?
You can set it up to 2 million points but it´s the same like setting the memory, with decreasing the timebase from ms to ns, less memory are avaible and the manual setting will be useless.
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You can set it up to 2 million points but it´s the same like setting the memory, with decreasing the timebase from ms to ns, less memory are avaible and the manual setting will be useless.
The question is how to get both, interpolation AND a larger number of FFT points?
You say that you need a slower timebase to get more FFT points, but then it does not interpolate any more :(
(And without interpolation, at 2GSa/s, the d/dt approximation is only good enough up to about 100 MHz)
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Thankyou, it make some things clearer for me.
Here the setting 2N3055 got on his scope at 10ns.
More samplerate(2.5x), more memory points(2.5X), more FFT points(4x).
It seems it´s enough to get the expected answer.
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According to the handbook, there also seems to exist an "Interpolate" math function.
Can it be used to interpolate explicitly, even when a slower timebase is used?
If yes, how long are the records generated by this function? (with 20x interpolation, they would need to be 20x longer than the input record -- if they are not truncated)
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Sorry guys, I was busy..
I unfortunately don't have SDS2000X+, only that SDS6104H12 to try.
And also can try on one scope similar to 2000X+ but higher res .... >:D.
I'm not sure if any of those two behave exactly as SDS2000X+.
If you guys enable Averaging as an Acquisition mode, then scope will interpolate more points...
Try that. On both ones I have here it increased apparent sample rate for FFT..
Also gf is right.
There is "interpolate" math function, that it would be simpler if it was called "upsample".
It resamples current samples to higher sample rate by interpolating from real data. I guess name comes from that.
On that "scope similar to sds2000X+" I can upsample by factor of 20X.
So if you use Averaging acquisition mode, and math formula FFT(d(Interpolate(C1))/dt) with interpolate 20X I get this:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1480708;image)
SDS6000H12 with it's 5GS/s seems to have sample rate high enough by default... But even with it this method helps..
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Hi 2N3055,
Quickshot....
Edit:
So if you use Averaging acquisition mode
On SDS2K+, averaging is only as a math function avaible..
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Hi 2N3055,
Quickshot....
Edit:
So if you use Averaging acquisition mode
On SDS2K+, averaging is only as a math function avaible..
Oh it shows that I don't have it... I forget they are not exactly the same...
I would say something is not right with that FFT...
It shows effective sample rate as 4 TS/s (4000 giga).
Could you try adjust it to be somewhere at 200-400GS/s so bin width is not half scope's bandwidth.
Play with upsample rate until you get bin width of 20 ish MHz..
Someone else with fast pulse gen and SDS2000X+ should try..
Maybe there is a bug lurking somewhere in there..
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Will do....
....a couple of hours later..
I would say something is not right with that FFT...
Yeah, this is what I got in mind since I´ve tried it and recognized the thing with the changing points (50ns 512pts, 20ns 1024pts, 10ns 512 pts).
Also we got a bug solved with the last (?) firmware, concerning FFT and memorysize.
Maybe there are something more to correct.
But I will check your suggestions in appx 12 hours.. ;)
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If the interpolated sample rate at 5ns/div is per se already 200GSa/s, then 20x explicit oversamling leads to 4000Gsa/s. This sounds actually plausible. But at the end it only changes the FFT resolution, while the time window (in seconds) is still the same, since sample rate and #points increase by the same factor. I was rather thinking of using timebases >= 50ns/div (where it does not interpolate automatically), and interpolate/upsample explicitly from 2GSa/s to 40 GSa/s, and check how many points we get.
And yes, since the FFT spectrum does not fit with the time domain data, there might be a bug.
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Apart from this and in general, having a formula editor is a real great feature... :-+
Good night guys.
Martin
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I can't use the SCPI command: LIC : DEL to remove the hacked Bandwidth license, maybe who knows how to remove a bandwidth license？ :-// :-// :-// :-// :scared: :scared: :scared:
A bit of advice, there is a separate hack topic, best to keep related questions there:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-hack/msg3082536/#msg3082536 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-hack/msg3082536/#msg3082536)
I'm sure some of the experts there will know..
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I can't find any sort of low pass filter in the maths functions.
I'm playing around with a 1 bit DAC implementation on an FPGA board, and don't want to go to the trouble of actually building the filter section (for now). Is there some other maths function that can get me close? I was thinking ERES might do enough, but is there a better way?
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Could you try adjust it to be somewhere at 200-400GS/s so bin width is not half scope's bandwidth.
With the lowest upsample coefficient (x2) it drops down to 400GS/s, 1024pts.
Effect: Same as before.
Martin
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I checked all your screenshots again, and it seems that the chosen FFT window size was between 50% and 100% of the screen width (in samples).
Seems that it selects a power of two which falls into this range. Don't know of course, whether this is a rule, or just by accident.
An exception was 5ns/div, where the window size was even less than 1/10 of the screen width.
Sorry, was a mistake. I'll correct in a new message.
EDIT: Interpolate(...) does not change that, and does not reduce the frequency bin size either, since sample rate increases by the same factor as the number of points, and bin size is sample rate divided by number of points.
[ In order to interpolate in the frequency domain, one would rather need to zero pad the window in the time domain to a larger size (2x, 4x,...), before doing the FFT.
Actually, in conjunction with zero padding, the window size would not even need to be a power of two, but only the padded size needs to be a power of two. ]
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Seems that it selects a power of two which falls into this range. Don't know of course, whether this is a rule, or just by accident.
Not accident. As told in user manual.
"When the number of points in the time domain, N, is less than 2 Mpts, the FFT takes the number which is an integer power of 2 closest to N."
Starting from 2^21 down to 2^2
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I can't use the SCPI command: LIC : DEL to remove the hacked Bandwidth license, maybe who knows how to remove a bandwidth license？ :-// :-// :-// :-// :scared: :scared: :scared:
Try LIC:DEL (without the spaces around the : character)
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Someone else with fast pulse gen and SDS2000X+ should try..
Maybe there is a bug lurking somewhere in there..
Nobody else except me ?
I think we should make it clear if this is a bug or not...
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I think we should make it clear if this is a bug or not...
The inflexible window sizes seem to be rather a limitation.
Still, at 20ns/div, you should see a descending spectrum, if you center the impulse the in the FFT window.
Btw, did you also look at the full span (0...25GHz at 20ns/div and 10ns/div)? Maybe the scale is wrong?
Did you rule out Average(...) as potential source of the problem? It was also part of the expression.
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Guys, where on earth is the recent post with tips to remove the mainboard from 2kX Plus ?
Particularly need the tricks for the 3 hidden screws under the front panel vinyl overlay.
TIA
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Guys, where on earth is the recent post with tips to remove the mainboard from 2kX Plus ?
Particularly need the tricks for the 3 hidden screws under the front panel vinyl overlay.
TIA
These little suckers.....
Proceeding carefully with a heat gun....wish me luck.
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Guys, where on earth is the recent post with tips to remove the mainboard from 2kX Plus ?
Particularly need the tricks for the 3 hidden screws under the front panel vinyl overlay.
TIA
These little suckers.....
Proceeding carefully with a heat gun....wish me luck.
All apart now and several pics taken of the off sides of the PCB's you don't see in any teardowns. >:D
Will post them in the next day or so FYI along with some further info should anyone need to fix a blown 50 Ohm input.
:=\ time in NZ.
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Guys, where on earth is the recent post with tips to remove the mainboard from 2kX Plus ?
Particularly need the tricks for the 3 hidden screws under the front panel vinyl overlay.
TIA
These little suckers.....
Proceeding carefully with a heat gun....wish me luck.
May recall we had to remove the cover on our new SDS2102X Plus due a drink being spilled into the air vents, painful story in more ways than one :o
This required removing the vinyl overlay to gain access to those screws, and we buggered up the overlay. Should have tried the heat gun approach :-[
Anyway Jason at Siglent US kindly sent a replacement overlay. The scope was cleaned, then reassembled and looks like new :-+
Good luck with your efforts!!
Best,
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Guys, where on earth is the recent post with tips to remove the mainboard from 2kX Plus ?
Particularly need the tricks for the 3 hidden screws under the front panel vinyl overlay.
TIA
These little suckers.....
Proceeding carefully with a heat gun....wish me luck.
May recall we had to remove the cover on our new SDS2102X Plus due a drink being spilled into the air vents, painful story in more ways than one :o
This required removing the vinyl overlay to gain access to those screws, and we buggered up the overlay. Should have tried the heat gun approach :-[
Anyway Jason at Siglent US kindly sent a replacement overlay. The scope was cleaned, then reassembled and looks like new :-+
Good luck with your efforts!!
Best,
I well recall Mike and found one of your old posts about the event. Yep I buggered the overlay too and should've used a hot air station for better heat control. |O
Luckily our customer almost passes us to and from work so we'll get another overlay in a stock order for him.
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@gf:
No averaging, interpolating to get more points.
Dx = 4
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The 25 GHz span was actually meant for 50 GSa/s (i.e. for 10ns/div or 20ns/div without extra interpolation), in order to see the full FFT spectrum which is calculated.
At 250 GSa/s, the full 0...Nyqist span were rather 0...125 GHz.
The extra interpolation does not help here anyway. It gives more points, but OTOH also increases sample rate, so it still does not increase the frequency resolution at the end, since the points are distributed over a larger span.
EDIT:
The spectrum is still strange. There is some roll-off now, but at too high frequency.
I'm also unsure whether the edge (including pre- and overshoot) is completely inside the -5ns...+5ns window from the center of the screen. Maybe you can shift the edge a little bit to the right?
At 20ns/div, the FFT window were -10ns...+10ns, so you had more tolerance for edge placement, and the frequency resolution of the FFT is 2x better as well.
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Not accident. As told in user manual.
"When the number of points in the time domain, N, is less than 2 Mpts, the FFT takes the number which is an integer power of 2 closest to N."
It is obvious that it needs to round down to the next power of two, since it can only discard, but not "invent" samples.
But what is the "number of points in the time domain", from which the power-of-two FFT size is then derived?
I actually made a mistake when I wrote "FFT window size was between 50% and 100% of the screen width". Checked again, and noticed the mistake.
It only applies to the screenshots with >= 50ns/div, but not for faster time bases.
Below is an updated table, extracted from Martin72's screenshots. FFT window sizes range from 0.512 to 8.192 screen divisions.
Why is the FFT window size so much smaller than the screen width at <= 20ns/div? This can no longer be explined by rounding down the screen width (in samples) to the next smaller power of two.
The interpolated samples for the full screen width need to exist anyway, otherwise the trace could not be displayed. So why not use as many of them as possible?
For instance: 5ns/div reports 100 (raw) samples @2GSa/s (which is the width of the screen).
With 100x interpolation (-> 200GSa/s) this gives about 10000 samples, and a power-of-two FFT size of 8192 were possible. But it chooses only 512.
2000ns/div: FFT window: 16384 ns, or 8.192 div (2GSa/s)
200ns/div: FFT window: 1024 ns, or 5.12 div (2GSa/s)
100ns/div: FFT window: 512 ns, or 5.12 div (2GSa/s)
50ns/div: FFT window: 256 ns, or 5.12 div (2GSa/s)
20ns/div: FFT window: 20.48 ns, or 1.024 div (50GSa/s interpolated)
10ns/div: FFT window: 10.24 ns, or 1.024 div (50GSa/s interpolated)
5ns/div: FFT window: 2.56 ns, or 0.512 div (200GSa/s interpolated)
5ns/div: FFT window: 2.56 ns, or 0.512 div (400GSa/s interpolated)
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When I look this @Martin72 image.... (and this is nothing personal at all... just one image for example )
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1482538;image)
I have "serious problem" when I look this image (or same kind of others rel. this sub subject).
Problem is that I do not know if I need cry or laugh. :/
Of course, it can also be expressed by saying: mathematically produced, perhaps correctly calculated, but if you think it gives a picture of reality, it’s mostly garbage.
If this is used seriously for something I will cry. :'(
If it is just directed for laboratory workshop joke, I can laugh. 25GHz... :clap:
Maybe my signature gives a clue as to the root cause of my problem - or then not.
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When you have cried/laughed enough, maybe you can help and make things clearer in the case why the sds2k+ can't do that, what the HD version can 8) :)
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When I look this @Martin72 image.... (and this is nothing personal at all... just one image for example )
I have "serious problem" when I look this image (or same kind of others rel. this sub subject).
Problem is that I do not know if I need cry or laugh. :/
Of course, it can also be expressed by saying: mathematically produced, perhaps correctly calculated, but if you think it gives a picture of reality, it’s mostly garbage.
If this is used seriously for something I will cry. :'(
If it is just directed for laboratory workshop joke, I can laugh. 25GHz... :clap:
Maybe my signature gives a clue as to the root cause of my problem - or then not.
The large span is for diagnosis.
Nyquist of the interpolated samples is of course that high (i.e. 25GHz @50GSa/s, or 125GHz @250GSa/s), and the FFT spectrum goes up to Nyquist.
However, if the spectrum of the raw samples is 0...1GHz, then the interpolation is not supposed to introduce any frequencies beyond 1GHz. Consequently 1...25GHz (or 1...125) GHz should be empty.
Aim of the large span was to check that the spectrum is really empty (zero) beyond 1GHz. And as we see it is not. It rather extends up to ~6 GHz before dopping to the noise floor :(
This is not plausible. I think there is a bug in the calculation.
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When I look this @Martin72 image.... (and this is nothing personal at all... just one image for example )
I have "serious problem" when I look this image (or same kind of others rel. this sub subject).
Problem is that I do not know if I need cry or laugh. :/
Of course, it can also be expressed by saying: mathematically produced, perhaps correctly calculated, but if you think it gives a picture of reality, it’s mostly garbage.
If this is used seriously for something I will cry. :'(
If it is just directed for laboratory workshop joke, I can laugh. 25GHz... :clap:
Maybe my signature gives a clue as to the root cause of my problem - or then not.
The large span is for diagnosis.
For diagnosis about what...
The purpose of an oscilloscope is to diagnose a more or less known signal.
What that FFT looks like over (real raw samples)fNyquist part doesn't say anything about the signal being diagnosed with the oscilloscope. But of course, it is always good to remember that whatever occurs on the oscilloscope screen is a mere sum of errors from reality already. And as here, quite detached from any reality. If we think reality is a signal in an oscilloscope input.
I think displaying such "nonsense" data on an oscilloscope screen is pretty much the same as meaningless speech in many words. Perhaps that screen could be filled numbers that have no meaning whatsoever for the purpose for which the tool is used for work.
Who and how this serves some real purpose.
Only some kind of semireality is in ADC raw true samples.
When oscilloscope -3dB BW is around 500MHz ands ADC samplerate is 2GSa/s ands then there is some attenuated signal up to fNyquist and some amount even over...
Then we interpolate (produce fake samples between true raw samples)... my opinion is that in this case we only add shit to nice soup. Then perhaps some noob are watching and wondering... oh well it can display 2GHz... oh more... it can display 10GHz... omg. At least that shit portion of display should be marked with some color that tells it to be shit at least relative to the incoming signal. (all over ~0.9 - 1GHz in this case) Even when it is mathematically true that with interpolated samples it "looks like" samplerate is higher and then FFT range is more (always 0 to fNyq.).
The basic question should always be: What does this say about the signal being tested. This is purpose of these tools (exept if some just want play fun - what is also sometimes fun).
The purpose of this tool is to measure - analyze and report the signal under test. In this example image, what this FFT tell about signal under test if we look this 0 - 25GHz full span. Neasly nothing. Is it really useful to "fool" users with this kind of entertainment on screen.
How ever, all this is or can be somehow useful - and nice and also it may be, way or other, educational. Know your equipment... and so on.
Gentlemen's, go on...
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Bravo...*Hands clapping*
And now after this you can perhaps tell the fools why the sds2k+ can´t reproduce the signalform like the two chinese market only scopes before.
Is it because of a bug ( last time a FFT bug was fixed), is it because it can´t do it or is it because I´m to too dumb for the right adjustments.
With the last two I can live with.
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As I said before dV/dt is not a symbolic math function, but a numeric algorithm estimating from discrete data samples.
Key words here are sample density at the very fast edges ( and tendency of derivative to go to infinity when confused :o) and fact that it uses 4,8 or more points to calculate slope change for the derivative (depending on the setting). That alone means it is basically using low pass filtered data for the derivative calculation, effectively. I'm not privy to exact formula implementation so can't tell exactly. Will investigate.
I'm still looking into exact explanation how it works, as it seems to work a bit differently between 2000X+ and 6000H12 and 2000XHD. Which is normal, because there are differences in acquisition modes, resolution etc..
If there is any sub optimal behaviour here in any of mentioned scopes, it will be reported.
In meantime, let's move on. A separate topic can be opened if this ends up being worthy of separate writeup..
No need for adversarial tone. We are all friendlies here...
Best,
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So these SDS2000X-plus are about 2yo now right? Is there any difference between the oldest and newest products ?
This year or next, I'm planning to get the low BW model and hack it. And that will probably be about the best scope I'd ever need, or afford for hobby use.
Is there anything newer and similar in spec's/price close to release ?
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And now after this you can perhaps tell the fools why the sds2k+ can´t reproduce the signalform like the two chinese market only scopes before.
Is it because of a bug ( last time a FFT bug was fixed), is it because it can´t do it or is it because I´m to too dumb for the right adjustments.
I think it is a bug. The spectrum of the interpolated data does not look right. A sharp cut-off from the up-sampling filter (which is expected slightly below 1GHz) is missing in the spectrum. Instead, there is an (unexpected) cut-off at ~6GHz. Maybe just the scale is wrong? If the 6GHz point on the scale were marked with 1 GHz, then it might even look reasonable (considering the large amount of noise).
As I said before dV/dt is not a symbolic math function, but a numeric algorithm estimating from discrete data samples.
Key words here are sample density at the very fast edges ( and tendency of derivative to go to infinity when confused :o) and fact that it uses 4,8 or more points to calculate slope change for the derivative (depending on the setting). That alone means it is basically using low pass filtered data for the derivative calculation, effectively. I'm not privy to exact formula implementation so can't tell exactly. Will investigate.
Screenshot from handbook:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1480306;image)
See also: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4160962/#msg4160962 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4160962/#msg4160962)
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I well recall Mike and found one of your old posts about the event. Yep I buggered the overlay too and should've used a hot air station for better heat control. |O
Luckily our customer almost passes us to and from work so we'll get another overlay in a stock order for him.
I used a heat gun and a plastic razor blade to remove the overlay. I set my heat gun to its lowest setting: 100 degrees C. Worked a treat. It did require a lot of care with the plastic razor blade to get it started, after which I pulled it up by hand once I had enough freed with the razor blade that I could get my fingers around it.
Because I figured I was voiding my warranty by opening the scope up anyway, I drilled out the holes that the screws fit through so that the screw heads would fit into the holes, and then secured the probe connector board to the frame using those screws before securing the front part of the enclosure to the frame. With it set up this way, I'll no longer have to remove the overlay prior to disassembly. There's plenty of structural connection of the front part of the enclosure to the frame, so the three screws that are underneath the overlay are not necessary for structural integrity of the front part of the enclosure. Their use is only to firmly secure the probe connector board to the frame.
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As I said before dV/dt is not a symbolic math function, but a numeric algorithm estimating from discrete data samples.
Key words here are sample density at the very fast edges ( and tendency of derivative to go to infinity when confused :o) and fact that it uses 4,8 or more points to calculate slope change for the derivative (depending on the setting). That alone means it is basically using low pass filtered data for the derivative calculation, effectively. I'm not privy to exact formula implementation so can't tell exactly. Will investigate.
Screenshot from handbook:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1480306;image)
See also: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4160962/#msg4160962 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4160962/#msg4160962)
Thank you for quoting that, but I read that. I didn't mean we don't know what it should calculate. I said I don't know how it's implemented exactly in a code.. Devil is in details... There are scopes that use only 3 points, for instance...
But as I said, I'll look into it.. While I didn't expect it to be accurate, it should provide ballpark curve....
Unless sampling rate + algo is not enough to see right at the edge of speed..
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For diagnosis about what...
...
In this example image, what this FFT tell about signal under test if we look this 0 - 25GHz full span.
Please consider the aim, which was the diagnosis of a potential bug of the scope in conjunction with interpolation and FFT.
The 1...25 GHz region is indeed of interest if you want to assess the performance and correct functionality of the interpolation.
OTOH, I fully agree that this region is useless for the analysis of a signal under test if you presume that the scope works correctly.
[ With an ideal brickwall interpolation filter, cutting off at 1 GHz, this region were zero anyway, so what should it tell us then. ]
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I well recall Mike and found one of your old posts about the event. Yep I buggered the overlay too and should've used a hot air station for better heat control. |O
Luckily our customer almost passes us to and from work so we'll get another overlay in a stock order for him.
I used a heat gun and a plastic razor blade to remove the overlay. I set my heat gun to its lowest setting: 100 degrees C. Worked a treat. It did require a lot of care with the plastic razor blade to get it started, after which I pulled it up by hand once I had enough freed with the razor blade that I could get my fingers around it.
Because I figured I was voiding my warranty by opening the scope up anyway, I drilled out the holes that the screws fit through so that the screw heads would fit into the holes, and then secured the probe connector board to the frame using those screws before securing the front part of the enclosure to the frame. With it set up this way, I'll no longer have to remove the overlay prior to disassembly. There's plenty of structural connection of the front part of the enclosure to the frame, so the three screws that are underneath the overlay are not necessary for structural integrity of the front part of the enclosure. Their use is only to firmly secure the probe connector board to the frame.
Thanks for that info KC and I'll make a point of adding this into my writeup on a full X Plus disassembly....and of course with credits to thee !
Discussions today with the factory have them apologizing for not including a new vinyl overlay that they call a Channel Mask with the replacement mainboard. Apparently it's normal practice but somehow getting one to us was overlooked.
Edit
Dug out that post of yours I had been searching for:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-electricalcomputer-engineer-student-test-bench-equipment-recommendations/msg4124305/#msg4124305 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-electricalcomputer-engineer-student-test-bench-equipment-recommendations/msg4124305/#msg4124305)
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Is it possible that the dx/dt (F1) function is not working correctly or is not calculating with the data displayed by C4? I think the maximum slope of C4 is not at -0.5ns but at 0.0ns.
Function d(Avg(C4))/dt (F2) fits better.
What I noticed while trying it out is that the formula editor always displays the last formula entered and not the current formula of function 1 or 2.
I checked the manual to see what d/dt is really supposed to do (see screenshot).
Do your F1 and F2 possibly use different dx for the finite difference approximation?
EDIT:
I find it actually a bit strange that delta t is specified in div units, where 1 div = 50 pixels.
(I'd rather expected to specify either number of samples, or seconds.)
And I also wonder whether 1 div = 50 pixels can be correct, if the screen has 10 div and screen width is 1024 pixels?
Sorry, was obviously an old version of the manual - the new one specifies dx in points.
Replaced screenshot. Still it sais 1 point = 0.01 div. So dx is still specified in 1/100 div units (and neither samples nor seconds)?
Sorry, dx was the same for F1 and F2.
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Today at work, bodnar on lecroy waverunner wr9354 500Mhz...
Martin
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Thanks for that info KC and I'll make a point of adding this into my writeup on a full X Plus disassembly....and of course with credits to thee !
You're very welcome. Since you're incorporating this into the writeup, there is one thing I didn't mention that I need to make explicit: when I was lifting the overlay ("Channel Mask") off by gently pulling up on the end (I had used the plastic razor blade to lift the edge up enough that I could grab it with my hand), I kept heat on the area of the overlay nearest the interface between the lifted section and the remainder. Which is to say, I didn't merely heat the overlay a bit and then lift the whole thing off, but rather I kept heat on it as I lifted it off. While the overlay might have come off anyway once I started it, I wanted to ensure that I didn't warp the overlay by applying too much force to it. So I kept heat on it as I was lifting it off in order to minimize the amount of force I had to use to pull it away from the enclosure.
I think if it's done exactly right, you might not even need to replace the adhesive. The chances are very good, however, that you will need to clean off the existing adhesive from the overlay and then replace it with new adhesive of your choice. As mentioned in my original message that you found, I used transfer tape, specifically: https://www.amazon.com/467MP-Clear-Adhesive-Transfer-length/dp/B007Y7CV86 (https://www.amazon.com/467MP-Clear-Adhesive-Transfer-length/dp/B007Y7CV86)
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@Martin72, I'd like to come back to one of your first attempts (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4156843/#msg4156843).
It failed due to a limitation of the d/dt function.
May I ask you to try that again with explicit interpolation, i.e.
- FFT(d(Intrp(C1))/dt)
- 20x interpolation
- dx as short as possible
- Flat Top window function
- span 0...1GHz
- 2µs/div (as before) might be a reasonable starting point.
[ Different from the "single impulse approach", this approach captures many 10 MHz square wave periods (the more the better). This does not give the transfer function directly, but leads to a sparse comb spectrum with 20 MHz spacing (odd harmonics of 10 MHz). However, the envelope of the comb is still (approximately) the transfer function. Due to a large number of samples, there is no need for averaging multiple traces (which also eliminates trigger jitter) - instead the processing gain of the FFT will care about reducing the noise floor. ]
If the result is not plausible, then it may also suffer from from the previously seen issue with interpolation and FFT. But since the context is a bit different, Im not be sure that the same happens here as well :-//
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Hi gf,
On the last two days I checked the thing at work on our lecroy scopes.
A WR9054, a HDO6034A and a WS3024Z or Siglent SDS3K...
On the forthcoming weekend, I´ll start a dedicated thread for it, including the results of my sds2k+.
I´m not very into it ( will be "corrected"), but actually I strongly believe there is a bug here.
Waverunner and HDO got two things in common, relatively to the siglent remarkable less memory, but lots of samples (20/10 GSa/s).
Wavesurfer got "less" samples and way more less memory.
Waverunner and HDO did the same like 2N3055´s scope, with FFT (C1(D/Dx).
Wavesurfer did the same like my SDS2K+....
Will be continued in a new thread.
Martin
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SDS2000X Plus Teardown tips
Most guidance required can be found in the SDS2000X Plus Service manual in Chapter 6 Disassembly Procedures from P48 on:
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/document/SDS2000X%20Plus%20Service%20Manual_SM0102XP-E01A.pdf (https://int.siglent.com/u_file/document/SDS2000X%20Plus%20Service%20Manual_SM0102XP-E01A.pdf)
Note, there are useful mentions of the number of screws to deal with at each stage and these help to reduce mistakes and confirm counts of fixings at each stage.
However, some color pics, specific tools required and a few hard earned tips never go amiss.
A single Torx T10 driver does most everything although it must be a long shank to reach all the rear cover screws. Tweezers and/or needle nose pliers are a must to manage screws as some are in recesses and prone to go walkabout into hard to access places. Stout long nosed pliers are required if you haven’t a 16mm deep reach socket for BNC socket nut removal and refitting.
On with the teardown…..this to replace the mainboard under warranty.
Getting to remove the mainboard is simple enough….just follow the Disassembly instructions however care must be taken with the ribbon cable connector for the front panel PCB.
It has a flip up latch that must be handled with care as to not break it and the next couple of pics show the latching mechanism open and shut plus the green hookup wire used to go fishing for the ribbon cable when it just won’t sit in an accessible position when refitting the new mainboard.
Encoder/keypad cable pics
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1487263)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1487269)
There is just one other mainboard connection left, the double row socket with color coded wiring that includes some twisted pairs for the display driver board….another totally hidden surprise….more on this later.*
Removal of the mainboard first requires removal of the metal chassis it is mounted on so to access the 16mm fastening nuts on the BNC bulkhead fittings and you’ll already had to deal with 2 of these on the rear panel shielding and have found their tightness could be described as ‘just nipped’.
Removal of the mainboard chassis also entails removal of 3 hidden screws residing under what Siglent call the Channel Mask…..the adhesive vinyl overlay around the BNC inputs.
X Plus screws
Vinyl overlay X Plus
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1487275)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1487281)
This is a properly awkward exercise and damage to the Channel Mask is very likely therefore a spare one should be ordered so to speed removal and reassembly.
Member kcbrown carefully examined the placement of these 3 hidden screws and formulated a modification to structural fixings so these 3 screws did not require access to remove the mainboard chassis from the scope front housing. See these posts:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-electricalcomputer-engineer-student-test-bench-equipment-recommendations/msg4124305/#msg4124305 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-electricalcomputer-engineer-student-test-bench-equipment-recommendations/msg4124305/#msg4124305)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4167997/#msg4167997 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4167997/#msg4167997)
By now we should have the mainboard chassis removed but always keep referring to the Disassembly instructions for the little things that one can easily overlook.
Just a few more screws and the front panel can be removed to expose the encoder/keypad and probe sense PCB which must be done to access the BNC nuts.
Front PCB’s
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1487287)
Don’t forget to remove the additional 3 screws from the probe sense PCB so to access the BNC nuts and FG BNC nut.
BNC nuts
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1487293)
While here we need look underneath.
Rear probe sense.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1487299)
With the mainboard now dead simple to remove from its chassis let’s have a look at the side of it that hidden from teardown videos.
Mainboard Underside
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1487305)
While we have it apart this far let’s have a deeper look at some things….
Apart
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1487311)
A couple of screws hold the encoder/keypad PCB on and the underside is here with ribbon cables back to the mainboard and to the probe sense PCB.
Underside encoder keypad PCB
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1487317)
*At this point we can see a small bundle of colored wires, some are twisted pairs going under the chassis to the display and that is unusual as display connections are normally ribbon cables. :-//
Just a few screws hold the display to the front of the chassis so at this point it would be rude not to investigate and it’s a good thing we did as the display PSU and driver PCB is not fully visible otherwise. Pic shows display backlight lead unplugged and its socket clearly visible.
Display driver
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1487341)
Reassembly is simple enough however 2 things in particular can be tricky, managing to keep the ribbon cable to the encoder/keypad PCB under control to have it accessible to plug into the new mainboard can be challenging and a plan to keep it under control or fish for it is worth developing.
Torx screw refitting management is challenging so to not have the little buggers get lost in the many crevices and spotting this standing out a mile had me devise a plan to keep control of them from the outset. These chassis fastening screws fix into the rear of the front panel, directly into the plastic and as the chassis they fasten is not very thick they tend to want to fall over and skate off to places unknown so with the tools at hand…tweezers and needle nosed pliers it was found needle tweezers held onto them really well but not like you might think…..the tweezer tips when trying to open held quite well enough to the inside of the Torx recess that it was possible to offer them to their position and wind them in a turn or so but after a reverse turn to have them drop into their previous fitting thread groove.
Tweezers
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1487323)
This all took a good couple of hours from start to finish with the tablet alongside for the frequent referrals to the Service manual. Best advice is don’t hurry and take a few pics to refer to for reassembly.
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Additional pics and some info and pics on 50 Ohm inputs to come in another post.
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50 Ohm input damage info.
Any input overload damage to the 50 Ohm input circuit is apparently likely to be limited to the two 24.9 Ohm resistors, contacts on the 50 Ohm relay and possibly one inductor in the circuit.
See attached doc for official rework documentation.
Some pics
Topside relay closest to BNC and 24.9 Ohm size 1210 resistor are both possible damage points.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1487485)
Bottom side 1210 24.9 Ohm resistor.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1487491)
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Intersting, thanks for showing.
Question: Why would Siglent use two 24.9 ohm resistors in series rather than two 100 ohm in parallel? Seems the parallel combo would produce a better overall desired 50 ohm result with a less imaginary result.
Best,
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@tautech,
Many thanks for all those pictures and additional notes on disassembling an SDS2000X Plus. :)
I remembered that I'd grabbed all of Siglent's documentation on this model when (or even before) I'd purchased it about a year back actually almost two years ago now, so checked out the service manual (SM0102XP-E01A). I'd briefly skimmed through it at the time but didn't bother with a more thorough study of its contents (why bother when you might well have sold it on or bequeathed it to your descendants before the need for such servicing or repair ever arises?).
Taking another look at the manual to relate your observations about its incompleteness over some of the finer details (it glosses over the need to peel away the channel ID sticker for example), I spotted another missing detail in the acquisition board testing where it referred to the PSU's "Standby voltage" when referring you back to the PSU check which begs the question, "Which of those rail voltages is the SB rail? :-//
Other than some minor shortcomings, it's a decently written service manual worth having to hand, even if the illustrations leave something to be desired. Your actual photographs are a great boon in that regard and I'm very grateful to you for taking the time and trouble to publish them here even though, with luck, I may never need to consult them or the service manual ever again.
It's just comforting to know that should the occasion were ever to arise, I'll at least have a fighting chance of effecting my own recalibration or repair at a minimal cost of just replacement parts. ;D
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Other than some minor shortcomings, it's a decently written service manual worth having to hand, even if the illustrations leave something to be desired. Your actual photographs are a great boon in that regard and I'm very grateful to you for taking the time and trouble to publish them here even though, with luck, I may never need to consult them or the service manual ever again.
I figure that because I went to the trouble of drilling out the holes behind the "channel mask" so that I'd never have to remove the mask again, I won't ever have to open up the unit to that degree again. :D
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New firmware for SDS2000X Plus
5/23/2022 1.3.9R12 1. Fixed several bugs of 1.3.9R10
a) Compatibility issue on 2-channel models
b) WebServer control issue
https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds2000x-plus (https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds2000x-plus)
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It makes no sense to install this firmware ... for most owners. Probably :-BROKE
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My device came with V1.3.9R10. I had the webserver control issue.
I was able to see the scope screen on the web page (or using a VNC Viewer), keyboard was also working but mouse wasn't.
Just upgraded to V1.3.9R12. Now the mouse works fine on the web page and on the VNC Viewer :)
Bandwith and other option upgrades are also okay. No new issues yet.
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Short heartstopping after the upgrade (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/math-problems-on-sds2k-(trying-to-display-bandwith)/msg4197418/#msg4197418)...
After "reboot", both usb-ports won´t work anymore, no supply for the bodnarpulser, no detection of the usb-stick.. :o
Turn the scope off, then on...both ports are avaible again :phew: 8)
FYI.
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Today our three sds2104X+ arrived at last from external calibration.
Every scope passed it flawless without issues. :-+
All three are very close together so I´ll upload one calibration report - After some edits ( erasing company name, serial number, etc)..
Below a part of the channel vertical measuring, for me the results are very good.
Martin
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Just for information, I bought a new SDS2104X+ (version 04.05 / FPGA version 2022-02-08) and the .py is still working ... but I encounter my first freeze during the boot with the Siglent logo which doesn't disappear ??? By following the attached procedure I was able to fix it and the first try was ok.
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BTW, what is the folder comparison tool that you use? Looks like it has plenty of features.
Regards! :-+
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All three are very close together so I´ll upload one calibration report - After some edits
Converted pdf to word and back, maybe there are some viewing issues.. 8)
But here we are, see below and time limited.
Martin
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Thank you very much Martin for posting those calibration results.
Just one question: were these the Factory Calibration test results or the results after re-calibration?
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Hi,
Before I gave them away, I let all doing a self-cal test.
The test-lab itself were running thier tests fter at least 30min warm-up.
Martin
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Just one question: were these the Factory Calibration test results or the results after re-calibration?
I doubt the cal lab had a setup which could actually make any adjustments to the siglent.
So there were no before/after adjustment readings, as there was no adjustment.
As such, the readings were more a verification of the factory cal.
IIUC
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If this is the case, I'm very impressed by Siglent's attention to detail in regard of their factory calibration (and also rather reassured by these results - I'm the proud owner of an SDS2104X Plus, upgraded last year to the 2504 spec). :)
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If this is the case, I'm very impressed by Siglent's attention to detail in regard of their factory calibration (and also rather reassured by these results - I'm the proud owner of an SDS2104X Plus, upgraded last year to the 2504 spec). :)
Don't overlook the datasheet spec gives us the best idea of accuracy performance and this is something that no manufacturer wishes to get tripped up on so factory cal/accuracy should always meet or better datasheet spec.
Good Cal labs can easily write performance verification scripts from just the datasheet accuracy spec and the PV check values/ranges listed in the Service manual and or local one did just that for PV of their SDS2000X Plus with which they later discovered a blown 50 Ohm input that none of their techs would own up to. :horse:
Back a few pages I posted about this and included the PV report failure page.
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Good Cal labs can easily write performance verification scripts from just the datasheet accuracy spec
They did when I see it right in the "full" cal-report.
All in all there were very good results, in the next days I´ll compare them to the report of a lecroy.
Only "worse" thing:
Firmwareupdates are only possible, when scopes are close to the next calibration.
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Good Cal labs can easily write performance verification scripts from just the datasheet accuracy spec
They did when I see it right in the "full" cal-report.
All in all there were very good results, in the next days I´ll compare them to the report of a lecroy.
Only "worse" thing:
Firmware updates are only possible, when scopes are close to the next calibration.
Why, company policy ?
You need do some tests to prove this could be wrong.
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Hi Rob,
When doing a firmware upgrade siglent recommend to do the self calibration after this - I think for good reasons.
The official calibration based on the condition the scope got while the calibration process - when upgrading the firmware, scope doesen´t got the same condition as before - calibration is void.
When we give them away for new calibration, we can´t use them in a test setup, so we can also do a firmware upgrade because new calibration follows "immediately".
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Hi Rob,
When doing a firmware upgrade siglent recommend to do the self calibration after this - I think for good reasons.
The official calibration based on the condition the scope got while the calibration process - when upgrading the firmware, scope doesen´t got the same condition as before - calibration is void.
When we give them away for new calibration, we can´t use them in a test setup, so we can also do a firmware upgrade because new calibration follows "immediately".
IMO such a belief regarding FW updates sucks, sorry but can't put this any kinder.
Think about this.....Siglent issue a 1 year factory Cal sheet with 6 months grace in case it sits in the suppliers store before sale and in that 6 months it is quite possible new firmware could be released which in our case would be installed before dispatch.
Why would Siglent release new firmware if there was any risk at all the instrument might no longer reach Cal (datasheet spec) ?
Also consider this....for an instrument with auto-cal ....and most modern stuff has this which can run at any time but primarily required in the warm up period but can run at anytime !
And that might ruin an official Cal....nope, not seeing or believing such arse covering BS !
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Why would Siglent release new firmware if there was any risk at all the instrument might no longer reach Cal (datasheet spec) ?
Therefore their note to calibrate it new after firmware update.
It might be BS in your eyes but that´s how it goes when you´re into quality processes like ISO9000 or Aviation/Mil.
On the other hand:
Siglent has reached the Pros with their "cheap" stuff... ;)
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When doing a firmware upgrade siglent recommend to do the self calibration after this - I think for good reasons.
The official calibration based on the condition the scope got while the calibration process - when upgrading the firmware, scope doesen´t got the same condition as before - calibration is void.
When we give them away for new calibration, we can´t use them in a test setup, so we can also do a firmware upgrade because new calibration follows "immediately".
So are you permitted to run the self-calibration procedure on a regular basis?
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More or less - When it´s on it´s way to got a new calibration, so why not doing an upgrade and self-cal immediatley before it goes away.
This is the "brainfuck" in Quality Processes:
When the scope is external calibrated (and reported), we can do (official)measures with it because it´s proofed that this one meets it´s own specs.
We got the report and could handle it out to customer/auditor when he wants to see it.
It´s valid for one year - based on the condition the scope got when it was calibrated.
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SDS scope question ??
what kind of funny clock skew or free running issue are we seeing here ??
why is this not stable ?
is it the scope ? or the generator ? that is causing this ?
https://youtu.be/AQZ0Y1W4-ZI
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More or less - When it´s on it´s way to got a new calibration, so why not doing an upgrade and self-cal immediatley before it goes away.
I don't know if you are replying to me or tautech. What I mean is can you run a self-cal on a daily basis and so on? Or is that somehow prohibited?
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SDS scope question ??
what kind of funny clock skew or free running issue are we seeing here ??
why is this not stable ?
is it the scope ? or the generator ? that is causing this ?
https://youtu.be/AQZ0Y1W4-ZI
That is really a non-issue and is a result of the limitations of the sinx/x interpolation with not very many samples. As the actual point of the samples varies in the capture, the sinx/x interpolation comes out a bit different on different traces. Usually this shows up as a widened, jumpy trace, but if the sample rate is almost an exact multiple of the signal frequency, the dots can 'crawl' instead of moving around quickly so you see the squirming effect. If you have the same equipment, you can do a series of single captures and switch back and forth between dots and vectors (sinx/x) and you'll see what I mean.
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SDS scope question ??
what kind of funny clock skew or free running issue are we seeing here ??
why is this not stable ?
is it the scope ? or the generator ? that is causing this ?
https://youtu.be/AQZ0Y1W4-ZI
That is really a non-issue and is a result of the limitations of the sinx/x interpolation with not very many samples. As the actual point of the samples varies in the capture, the sinx/x interpolation comes out a bit different on different traces. Usually this shows up as a widened, jumpy trace, but if the sample rate is almost an exact multiple of the signal frequency, the dots can 'crawl' instead of moving around quickly so you see the squirming effect. If you have the same equipment, you can do a series of single captures and switch back and forth between dots and vectors (sinx/x) and you'll see what I mean.
Yes, should also check what max mem depth has been set.
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@bdunham7
To you.
And no, this we couldn´t for the reasons explained before*.
Apart from this and general, why making daily self-cals...
*) When we could make sure, that self-cal wouldn´t affect the measured values on calibration, then this shoudln´t be a problem then.
But: When it wouldn´t make any affections, why can you make self-cals...
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SDS scope question ??
what kind of funny clock skew or free running issue are we seeing here ??
why is this not stable ?
is it the scope ? or the generator ? that is causing this ?
https://youtu.be/AQZ0Y1W4-ZI
You can try scope in dot mode... Dot mode emulates repetitive sampling of a sort..
If it is smeared, that is probably AWG... set rise/fall time to 1.7ns or more and see.
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@bdunham7
But: When it wouldn´t make any affections, why can you make self-cals...
I don't have time for a long reply, but the short answer is that when your lab does a calibration, they are essentially verifying that the self-calibration process itself is working accurately. There's not much assurance that the scope would stay accurate for a year without self-cal. Unfortunately Siglent's manuals don't go into this as extensively as Tek does with their Signal Path Compensation, but not being allowed to do the self-cal between calibrations would be like insisting that you turn off autozero and not use ACAL on your 3458A.
Some Siglents have a 'Quick-Cal' feature that runs in the background but I don't see it on the SDS2000X+. Perhaps it is just there and there's no menu option to defeat it.
Anyway, unless you document and build your own calibration history, you have to combine the cal report with the manufacturers specifications and instructions. And Siglent doesn't tell you not to run self-cal, just the opposite. IMO. Best of luck convincing anyone else.
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I think, there is a translation problem.
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I think, there is a translation problem.
I'm not sure where?
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I think, there is a translation problem.
I'm not sure where?
Between last and this century ! :P
Indeed it does seem Cal labs record FW versions and have for some years as some old equipment was notorious for crashing and/or losing calibration settings ! :horse:
But hell, what equipment does that these days but the industry is so stuck in its ways they cannot identify those brands and models and instead places all equipment in the same boat, maybe in an attempt to CYA.
Marty mentions ISO9000, well maybe it's time that got tipped upside down and given a good shake until the BS falls out.
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Indeed it does seem Cal labs record FW versions and have for some years as some old equipment was notorious for crashing and/or losing calibration settings ! :horse:
Marty mentions ISO9000, well maybe it's time that got tipped upside down and given a good shake until the BS falls out.
A company policy requiring a cal check after firmware update might just be 'abundance of caution' (barf) but not using self-cal because it changes the measurements is just not right, IMO. If I'm understanding his company policy correctly.
I don't know the ins and outs of ISO9000, but this can't possibly be a correct interpretation because getting calibration certificates on scopes has been done for a long, long time. So if you get your all analog scope calibrated, do they tape/seal the vertical position knobs in place? No, the calibration and specifications assume you will zero it as needed before measurement. What I was pointing out that doing a calibration verification right after the proper warmup and self-cal precisely proves the scope is in spec--right after the self-cal. So the 'condition' of the scope could be said to include "within XX hours and X degrees C of self-cal", just like a DMM might specify a time and temperature delta since ACAL and/or zero/autozero. Unfortunately, as I've read some more in the manuals, Siglent doesn't really elaborate all that much, just telling you to run self-cal if the temperature changes 5C. But from experience I know that the zero point can drift around a bit on the lower ranges and an hour warmup plus a self-cal puts it right.
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My two cents with regard to the calibration:
- An SDS2000X Plus (or any other) DSO will certainly meet its specifications in a lab environment within the usual temerature window of 23 °C +/- 5 °C even without self-calibration.
- The official calibration in a cal-lab will tell you the results at a certain constant temperature, traditionally 23 °C, nowadays also 20 °C.
- If the official calibration has been preceeded by a self-cal at this exact temperature, the results will be particularly good. They will show you the qualities of the internal references of the instrument.
- You'll be able to get similarily good results at different temperatures anytime if you run self-cal again.
- If you never run self-cal in the actual working environment, you will not get the accuracy as documented by the official calibration, but you will certainly still stay within spec as long as the environmental conditions aren't abysmal, i.e. normal lab conditions.
But I know, the official regulations have more to do with following strict rules instead of common sense...
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My two cents with regard to the calibration:
- An SDS2000X Plus (or any other) DSO will certainly meet its specifications in a lab environment within the usual temerature window of 23 °C +/- 5 °C even without self-calibration.
- The official calibration in a cal-lab will tell you the results at a certain constant temperature, traditionally 23 °C, nowadays also 20 °C.
- If the official calibration has been preceeded by a self-cal at this exact temperature, the results will be particularly good. They will show you the qualities of the internal references of the instrument.
- You'll be able to get similarily good results at different temperatures anytime if you run self-cal again.
- If you never run self-cal in the actual working environment, you will not get the accuracy as documented by the official calibration, but you will vertainly still stay within spec as long as the environmental conditions aren't abysmal, i.e. normal lab conditions.
But I know, the official regulations have more to do with following strict rules instead of common sense...
Yes, all common sense that seems to be not that common. :-+
Made a post on the Siglent forum about this that I believe could do with some discussion.
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- An SDS2000X Plus (or any other) DSO will certainly meet its specifications in a lab environment within the usual temerature window of 23 °C +/- 5 °C even without self-calibration.
...
- If you never run self-cal in the actual working environment, you will not get the accuracy as documented by the official calibration, but you will vertainly still stay within spec as long as the environmental conditions aren't abysmal, i.e. normal lab conditions.
I agree with everything you said except I'd regard these two statements as very likely true, but not proven, especially over the course of a year with a sample size large enough to give you an appropriate confidence interval. I suspect that they mostly are true in general simply because the actual tolerances of most DSOs are wide enough to drive a truck through. But if guaranteed performance is what you are after, it makes no sense to not use self-cal, since one of the conditions of the calibration certificate was 'recent self-cal'.
Siglent doesn't get into these details explicitly enough in their manual. Tek does, they state "thou shalt run SPC", as in this excerpt from a TDS6000B manual:
To meet specifications, the following conditions must be met:
The oscilloscope must have been calibrated in an ambient temperature
between 20 °C and 30 °C (68 °F and 86 °F).
The oscilloscope must be operating within the environmental limits listed in
Table 1--11, page 1--17.
The oscilloscope must be powered from a source that meets the specifications listed in Table 1--9, page 1--15.
The oscilloscope must have been operating continuously for at least 20
minutes within the specified operating temperature range.
You must perform the Signal Path Compensation procedure after the
20-minute warm-up period, and the ambient temperature must not change
more than 5 °C (9 °F) without first repeating the procedure. See page 3--2 for
instructions to perform this procedure
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What leads me to my statement are the possible causes of incorrect calibration:
- Timing errors. These are solely determined by the system clock, which usually cannot be adjusted and is not affected by self-cal.
- Gain errors. We don't expect any substantial gain changes over temperature from the OpAmp in the LF-path of the input buffer, nor the bootstrapped source follower in the HF-path. And a typical integrated PGA has a temperature coefficient of about 0.001 dB/K, so the temperature could change about 100 °C until we see an additional 1% gain error (and still be within the specification).
- Offset errors. This is about the only thing that actually benefits from self-cal in practice - if only because of the high sensitivity of modern low noise instruments, where a few hundred microvolts offset error can get very obvious. Offset specifications are 1.5%*full scale+1 mV. That is more than one division at 1 mV/div - a vertical gain setting that is very unlikely to be used in any industrial process where certified calibration is required. For the more common ranges 5 mV/div and up, offset simply is a non-issue as well.
My lab in has seen temperature changes in excess of 10 K. Yet I've never experienced offset errors exceeding a couple hundred microvolts - this is why I'm inclined to neglect even the offset error. I do not run self-cal very often - but only because it takes time...
It is certainly good practice to run a self-cal after FW-update. Yet I think Siglent clearly states it in the update instruction whether a self-cal is actually required. Usually we can make do without.
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>That is really a non-issue and is a result of the limitations of the sinx/x interpolation with not very many samples.
thanks a lot, i was hoping the scope could reset / sync, its sample time, to trig event,
this way none of this will happen.
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thanks a lot, i was hoping the scope could reset / sync, its sample time, to trig event,
this way none of this will happen.
You wouldn't actually want that. A lot of strange looking artifacts can appear when a signal's frequency is very close to a multiple of the sample rate and less synchronization, not more, is the fix. Older scopes often deliberately shifted the sample timing (Equivalent Time Sampling or ETS) and could build up a waveform display from multiple acquisitions. The fix for what is shown in the video is to simply display the actual samples (dot mode) and not use the sin/x vector display.
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My lab in has seen temperature changes in excess of 10 K. Yet I've never experienced offset errors exceeding a couple hundred microvolts - this is why I'm inclined to neglect even the offset error. I do not run self-cal very often - but only because it takes time...
I've also observed that offset is the main issue, but I have also observed small gain/linearity errors at higher v/div settings, typically less than 1 LSB so not much to worry about. They always improve or at least don't worsen with self-cal. Thus my objection (and Tek's) to the notion that self-cal is incompatible with a calibrated instrument. However, given the huge tolerances in the specifications, this is not likely to be an issue either way.
The large tolerances aren't just at sensitive settings. For an example I set up an SDS1104X-E with a 10V DC input. Before self-cal at 5V/div it read 9.97V and at 10V/div it read 9.70V. All seemingly within the commonly assumed (but wrong) notion that scopes are good specified for about +/-3%. After self-cal it was 10.00V and 9.75V respectively. Note that 1 LSB @ 10V/div appears to be 400mV--although checking this was confusing and it seemed to be 200mV in some ways. Anyway, if you look up the combined specifications for reading 10V @ 10V/div, I get a tolerance of +/- 1.502V or about 15% of the reading. Yeah, it will probably meet that with or without self-cal.
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The large tolerances aren't just at sensitive settings. For an example I set up an SDS1104X-E with a 10V DC input. Before self-cal at 5V/div it read 9.97V and at 10V/div it read 9.70V. All seemingly within the commonly assumed (but wrong) notion that scopes are good specified for about +/-3%. After self-cal it was 10.00V and 9.75V respectively. Note that 1 LSB @ 10V/div appears to be 400mV--although checking this was confusing and it seemed to be 200mV in some ways. Anyway, if you look up the combined specifications for reading 10V @ 10V/div, I get a tolerance of +/- 1.502V or about 15% of the reading. Yeah, it will probably meet that with or without self-cal.
The visible screen height on any SDS1000X-E corresponds to exactly 200 LSB, i.e. 25 LSB/div.
At 10 V/div, 1 LSB is inevitably 400 mV.
Probably because of the automatic measurments with their bunch of decimal places, people tend to forget that this is still only a low resolution 8-bit system. The mean value in the measurement statistics can provide a lot more resolution though, hence is the preferred measurement whenever some accuracy is required. The measurement of the mean voltage in itself is already an averaging across the screen and has correspondingly higher resolution.
Self-cal will minimize the gain error, and even though it's usually just a matter of +/-1 LSB, the effect can get quite obvious, especially when only a small portion of the input range is used, like a measurement of 10V at 10 V/div, where the visible range is 80 V and the ADC full scale is even higher at 102.4 V. But then again, it has been a basic rule since elctrical measurement devices exist, that in order to get decent accuracy we need to get as close as possible to full scale.
Apart from that, I once demonstrated how the actual offset accuracy is much, much better than specified. See the attached screenshot of 206 V measured to 0.053 % with just a humble SDS1104X-E.
EDIT: According to the specifications, the tolerances in this scenario should be 200 V x 1.0 % + 8 x 2 V x 1.5 % + 2 mV + 6 V x 3.0 % = 2 V + 240 mV + 2 mV + 180 mV = 2.422 V, this would be a total error of 1.175 %!
In fact, the offset is the main reference for self-cal and the very loose specifications especially for the multiplicative error are not really plausible.
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SDS scope question ??
what kind of funny clock skew or free running issue are we seeing here ??
why is this not stable ?
is it the scope ? or the generator ? that is causing this ?
https://youtu.be/AQZ0Y1W4-ZI
That is really a non-issue and is a result of the limitations of the sinx/x interpolation with not very many samples. As the actual point of the samples varies in the capture, the sinx/x interpolation comes out a bit different on different traces. Usually this shows up as a widened, jumpy trace, but if the sample rate is almost an exact multiple of the signal frequency, the dots can 'crawl' instead of moving around quickly so you see the squirming effect. If you have the same equipment, you can do a series of single captures and switch back and forth between dots and vectors (sinx/x) and you'll see what I mean.
I'd like to add: It's eventually an aliasing artifact. An exact unambiguous reconstruction of the original signal from the samples via sinc interpolation is not possible if the captured signal was not band-limited to < 1/2 sample rate. These artifacts are not supposed to happen if the signal were properly band-limited (and the video also shows that it disappears when the rise time is increased, which reduces the occupied bandwidth).
[ Btw, an exact sinc interpolation is of course not feasible either, since the sinc function has inifinite support. So it needs to be truncated to a finite length in practice, introducing some error, too, ]
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SDS scope question ??
what kind of funny clock skew or free running issue are we seeing here ??
why is this not stable ?
is it the scope ? or the generator ? that is causing this ?
https://youtu.be/AQZ0Y1W4-ZI (https://youtu.be/AQZ0Y1W4-ZI)
You can rest assured that what you're seeing is entirely down to Siglent's use of their "Innovative Easy Pulse" technology to hide the DDS jitter on pulse waveforms in the SDG rather an issue with the DSO. :)
BTW, thanks for that YT video. I've only seen Feeltech's version of this feature in action on their latest FY6900. They call it "Magic Pulse" (or something like that) and that video was reminiscent of the weird looking sidestepping effect when triggering from a square wave with a 30mHz frequency offset from the other channel at around 5MHz as far as I recall.
Feeltech posted a YT video demonstrating it (square waves only) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1addM9svUOI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1addM9svUOI)
Evava posted some screenshots and a short video file demonstrating a similar effect
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/re-feelelec-new-arrival-fy-6900-signal-generator/msg2587782/#msg2587782 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/re-feelelec-new-arrival-fy-6900-signal-generator/msg2587782/#msg2587782)
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You can rest assured that what you're seeing is entirely down to Siglent's use of their "Innovative Easy Pulse" technology to hide the DDS jitter on pulse waveforms in the SDG rather an issue with the DSO. :)
I don't think there should be any DDS jitter at exactly 1kHz...
...and I can reproduce the same effect on my DSO with a non-DDS edge input.
https://youtu.be/g6the-b412o
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@bdunham7
That's an interesting, if unexpected, obsveration. I've fired up my 2104X+ to compare the FY6600 and the SDG2042X square wave outputs at 1KHz. I had to wait for the DSO to complete its calibration (I couldn't get it to display the FY6600's 1KHz square wave outputs on either channel). Hopefully just a hiccup in the DSO for lack of any use these past 6 months or so. I've been using the SDS1202X-E since it suffices for monitoring 24/7 the frequency drift between the GPSDO and my Rubidium reference project using infinite persist (it saves burning up the extra 32 watts to do the same task with the 2104).
Problem solved, I'd lost sight of the decimal point in the FY6600's display and landed up outputting a 1mHz square wave :palm: The problem again being 'lack of use'. :-[ Ah well, I got the setups sorted in the end (even figured out why the SDG's square wave was double what I'd expected (too many amplitude/impedance settings options - I'd preempted the 50 ohm setting but missed the + and - amplitude option landing up with a 10vpk-pk at 50 ohm setting instead of the 5v pk-pk I'd been aiming for).
Anyway, that peculiar 'wiggle' is an artefact of the SDG after all! :o The FY6600 shows no sign of any wiggle, just the slight over (and under) shoot when looking at an edge with rise and fall times of 7ns. I reduced the frequency to see if I could detect any wobble but there was no sign, just a slight (one pixel) amplitude jitteryness that became apparent by the time I'd dropped the frequency to 10Hz.
I didn't bother exploring lower frequencies with the SDG since I saw the wiggle issue straight away at 1KHz which is enough to verify my hypothesis regarding it being due to Siglent's "Innovative Easy Pulse" technology. Incidentally, I noted the longer (and varying!) rise and fall times of the SDG's square wave, just over 8ns for each case.
oz2cpu can rest assured that his SDS2000X+ isn't the culprit after all in this case. :)
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That's an interesting, if unexpected, obsveration.
It's really not unexpected and it is a form of, or at least closely related to, aliasing as mentioned earlier by gf.
Anyway, that peculiar 'wiggle' is an artefact of the SDG after all! :o
You may be able to reproduce a similar artifact from an AWG using interpolation to generate square waves or pulses, but that isn't the only cause of an effect like this. There's a couple of differences and ways to tell them apart. I don't get any such artifact from my SDG at exactly 1kHz and I would not expect to. If you do, then perhaps yours is special! However, I do get a similar but discernably different artifact at 1.0001kHz, which I do expect since you can't get that exact frequency by dividing the clock. You can see that the rise time varies, but there are no significant varying 'waves' beyond the transition as there are in my first video.
https://youtu.be/Nr_ySvSPa0U
The difference between this and my first video and the one from oz2cpu is that here there are plenty--30 or 40 at least--samples that cover the event in question. That is enough so that even if you shift them around, all of the sinx/x interpolations will be virtually identical. The other two only have 3-5 samples for the entire event which is not enough to accurately capture the overbandwidth components of the edge and shifting them around results in significantly different sinx/x interpolations for each capture.
So some of the ways that you can tell the difference between the effect I'm describing and the one you describe are:
1) switch from vector to dot display and use a little persistence if you need to--your effect will remain, mine will not
2) consider the number of samples and the BW/rise time of the various instruments. In the YT video oz2cpu posted there are 4 samples per division and IMO the varying sine wiggles reflect that, not any actual signal.
3) use a non-DDS source like I did in my first video to see how the scope can perform with a known consistent fast edge.
4) look and see if the rise time alone is shifting or if the whole thing is wiggling like a snake or at higher wfm/s, showing a wide trace at and around the tops and bottoms of the rising edge. The latter is due to the effect I describe.
oz2cpu can rest assured that his SDS2000X+ isn't the culprit after all in this case. :)
Well obviously I completely disagree and I've shown the video previously of the same effect where it clearly isn't the source. My fast edge is much, much faster than the scope, so there's no doubt that the effect is all scope. In oz2cpu's video, I suppose it is less clear since the AWG and scope rise times are in the same ballpark if the scope has been upgraded and is not the original 200MHz. But as I observed earlier, I wouldn't expect any Easy Pulse interpolation at 1kHz. If the scope has been upgraded to 500MHz+, then perhaps some of the effect could be AWG interpolation at the frequencies that don't divide evenly.
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Not sure where to place this, if there's a better place we'll move it.
The new SDS2000X HD has shown some very capable Bode Plots by Performa01, the 455KHz IF filter was especially interesting and an excellent device for a Bode measurement. So we decided to task the little brother SDS2104X+ with a task with an old popular passive Twin T Notch Filter, these were (maybe still are) very useful in reducing narrow tone interference in many applications.
Grabbed a handful of old cheap 10nF film capacitors and made some quick measurements with a LCR meter to select 4, then grabbed 4 1% 10K resistors and plugged everything into a white proto board. The network is shown in the LTspice schematic, and we included the ESR for the caps gathered with the capacitance readings from the LCR meter. An ideal 10nF cap and 10K resistor should yield a notch at 1/(2*pi*R*C) or ~1.5915KHz.
The SDS was setup with 10 bit mode and using an external AWG via LAN and a pair of 10X scope probes. No attempt was made to "tweak" the data other than make the scale factors on the simulations and measurement the same. Two sweeps are shown, one with log scale from 10Hz to 1MHz, and the other with linear scale from 500Hz to 2.5KHz to better resolve the "notch".
The results speak for themselves!!!
Best,
-
Edit, couldn't add these to above, so added another post.
Added simulations and plots with a 500Hz BW around 1.6KHz with a 1Hz resolution. Note the simulation predicts a -55.86dBV with -6.068 Degrees @ 1.5965KHz for the notch, and the measured values are -55.20dBV with -6.00 Degrees @ 1.6KHz. The left edge simulation at 1.35KHz is -21.525dBV with -84.3198 Degrees and the SDS measured value of -21.40dBV with -84.00 Degrees!!
Best,
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[ Btw, an exact sinc interpolation is of course not feasible either, since the sinc function has inifinite support. So it needs to be truncated to a finite length in practice, introducing some error, too, ]
Which is fine, as long as the error is hidden in the overall noise of the instrument.
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Edit, couldn't add these to above, so added another post.
Added simulations and plots with a 500Hz BW around 1.6KHz with a 1Hz resolution. Note the simulation predicts a -55.86dBV with -6.068 Degrees @ 1.5965KHz for the notch, and the measured values are -55.20dBV with -6.00 Degrees @ 1.6KHz. The left edge simulation at 1.35KHz is -21.525dBV with -84.3198 Degrees and the SDS measured value of -21.40dBV with -84.00 Degrees!!
Best,
Uhmmm... ::) I think the HDPlus is a "simulator".
Edit: I meant Plus. |O
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Uhmmm... ::) I think the HD is a "simulator".
The green plots are from LTspice. In my case yes the HD is, wish I had the real hardware tho ::)
So will have to make due with the X+ for now, which has been "augmented" with your kind (and others) help :clap:
Best,
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Simulator?
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Simulator?
Should clarify, all the Full Green Plots are simulations with LTspice, the Magenta/Green Plots are the actual measurement readings from the SDS2104X Plus in Bode Plot mode using the 10 Bit Mode. The capacitors were measured with a LCR meter with ESR as shown and included in the schematic above.
Edit:
Just for fun cascaded two Twin "T" Networks together and here's the simulation and actual measured results. The SDS2104X+ produces a respectable performance wrt the notch depth at -88dBV!!
Just a note, cascading networks together like this doesn't create the product of the transfer functions since the overall network response includes the source impedance and load impedance, and the first Twin T section has a load of the input to the second Twin T section which "sees" the first Twin T section as it's source. This is why a buffer amp between filter network sections is often employed.
Best,
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The green plots are from LTspice. In my case yes the HD is, wish I had the real hardware tho ::)
Send me your filter... ;)
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The green plots are from LTspice. In my case yes the HD is, wish I had the real hardware tho ::)
Send me your filter... ;)
I'll swap the filter for your HD :)
You have a good LCR meter I recall, grab 4 10K 1% Resistors and select some 10nF caps and build up the filter shown in our earlier post today (#3486). Try and match the cap values, and the two parallel shunt caps to 2 times the cap values. If you have an external AWG then set it to 20Vpp if possible for the best Bode DR. The Dual version of the Twin "T" was just two sections of this network connected together.
Bet your HD will produce a superb Bode Plot :-+
Here's a quick dual Twin "T" Network with nominal 10K Resistors, ~10nF and ~470nF Capacitors which should produce notches at 33.86Hz and 1.5915KHz.
Best
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and select some 10nF caps
Thank you for this - It reminds me that i didn´t got any caps under 100n at home.
But not for long, PP-Cap set will arrive on tuesday.. 8)
Generator is no problem, I got a SDG1062X, LCR is ET4410.
Martin
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You can use another size cap (or R), for instance if you have 10K R and 100nF then expect the notch to be at 159Hz, or if 220nF then 72Hz, or 470nF then 33Hz, since the notch should be ~ 1/(2*pi*R*C). Measure the C and ESR close to the desired notch frequency for better fidelity.
Best,
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Hi,
Yep but it was the best time to buy other caps... ;)
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Grabbed a handful of old cheap 10nF film capacitors and made some quick measurements with a LCR meter to select 4, then grabbed 4 1% 10K resistors and plugged everything into a white proto board. The network is shown in the LTspice schematic, and we included the ESR for the caps gathered with the capacitance readings from the LCR meter. An ideal 10nF cap and 10K resistor should yield a notch at 1/(2*pi*R*C) or ~1.5915KHz.
Did you really measure ESR between appx 46ohms like mentioned in the LT pic ?
Seems high for a film cap.
Today my cap-set arrived, I measure somewhat between 7...8Ohms on 1khz(no stable value).
Maybe your caps are very old.
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Did you really measure ESR between appx 46ohms like mentioned in the LT pic ?
Seems high for a film cap.
Today my cap-set arrived, I measure somewhat between 7...8Ohms on 1khz(no stable value).
Maybe your caps are very old.
Yes that's what was measured, these were some old cheap film types in a bag (green types) that had been laying around for many years (likely came from eBay). Just grabbed one and checked again, it reads 9.9248nF with 47ohms at 1.6KHz. Checked with the TH2830 and the IM3536 and both LCR meters agree, if the frequency is 10KHz then the ESR drops to ~12 ohms, even on the DE-5000 at 10KHz. At 1KHz all 3 LCR meters read ~57 ohms ESR.
Found some new stock 10nF metalized film type (yellow WIMA type), all three LCR read @1KHz ~67 ohms, @10KHz ~15 Ohms and the TH2830 & IM3536 @1.6KHz ~52 Ohms.
Hope this helps.
Best,
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Thank you so far.
I don´t want to "stretch" this thread with these things too much, my results will be posted in the 2000HD thread.
And for this thing I´ve "explore" while measuring the caps concerning the ESR, I´ll open up a new thread.
Martin
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My SDS2104X plus, bought January 2021 does not start any more.
When pressing the power button at the front, the button lights up, but no fan, no screen, no further button lights.
Same after disconnecting all connection or trying different power cord, which are double checked and known good anyway.
Pressing lit button for some seconds makes it to unlight again.
I found the hint and pressed "Math" repeatedly during power on, but with no effect.
https://siglentna.com/operating-tip/oscilloscope-hardware-reset/ (https://siglentna.com/operating-tip/oscilloscope-hardware-reset/)
Yesterday it run as usual, normal power off and shut down.
Any ideas?
Finally I have the Scope back fully functional.
After contact with the dealer I got a free shipment voucher and sent it to Siglent EU in germany directly.
Arrived at Siglent's Mai 3rd.
Got the same device back Mai 20th with mainboard changed.
Old was HW version 02-04, FPGA 2020-09-23
New is 02-00, 2021-07-16
It came without the initially bought option package installed.
Contacted dealer.
Got official Siglent authorization codes June 4th. These can be traded into installation codes on Siglent's website.
Didn't work, most probably they were generated for the old mainboard.
Contacted dealer.
Reminded dealer.
Got installation codes directly from dealer July 7th which worked fine.
If you need the options for business you should think of a fallback solution, e.g. a 2nd device.
For me it's OK, the initial turn around time of 2 weeks is fine.
And it's fine that Siglent has a local EU service point in DE.
From overall perspective the rough options processes might be quite OK for hobbist's market and prices too.
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My SDS hangs during boot now too! All the lights are flashing, the relais are clicking as usual but it stops with the „Siglent“ logo on black background. Some times I can overcome this with the repeatedly pressing of „Math“ key during the boot process (as Peter_O noticed), sometimes not. It also hangs during self calibration process. I had the same issue with my SSA3000+ some weeks ago but with „system reset“ and the last firmware upgrade the problem is gone.
Bought in June 20 I hope that Siglent remembers their 3 year warranty promise. Are there others out there with the same problem?
btw: Is someone knowing how to remove the „liberation“ licences from the device? I remember that there must be a SCPI command….
Strange: My "old" scope has HW-version 2.00 and FPGA 2021-07-16 (after update) as Peter_O's after repair!
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I´ve got the strange feeling it could have to do with the latest firmware updates...
Me I never got any problems with my one of the very first scopes - The buyer told me a few days after receiving, that the scope hangs while booting (one time, after the reset-thing it worked).
Last things I´ve done with it was the updating..
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No, the new firmware is not the reason.
During fiddling with booting the device (with the "math" key trick) I mentioned that it was still on 1.3.5R5.
When I got it again up and running I just updated it to the last 1.3.9R12 - but it didn't boot again without the trick.
As we all suffer in Germany from the highest energy costs worldwide and the Siglents standby consumption is
to high all my devices are always hard switched off and the Siglent SDS and my SSA
are set to "Power on line enable".
Since I had the same problem with my SSA I start thinking that this could be the reason?
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btw: Is someone knowing how to remove the „liberation“ licences from the device? I remember that there must be a SCPI command….
LIC:DEL optioncode
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No, the new firmware is not the reason.
During fiddling with booting the device (with the "math" key trick) I mentioned that it was still on 1.3.5R5.
When I got it again up and running I just updated it to the last 1.3.9R12 - but it didn't boot again without the trick.
As we all suffer in Germany from the highest energy costs worldwide and the Siglents standby consumption is
to high all my devices are always hard switched off and the Siglent SDS and my SSA
are set to "Power on line enable".
Since I had the same problem with my SSA I start thinking that this could be the reason?
Hard switched off? Do you shutdown devices first? You have to do that, shutdown to "soft off". Then only you can switch off the power...
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I alway shut down the devices with the power button (soft off), after that I disconnect it from mains. No hard switch off of course!
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I alway shut down the devices with the power button (soft off), after that I disconnect it from mains. No hard switch off of course!
No offense meant, I just wanted to make sure... :-+
It should not make difference in that case. But some of the devices might have issue if you change something and immediately (within seconds) quickly shutdown device, before all is saved..
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It‘s clear that this modern devices are more computers than simple measurement tools :-DD
No regrets needed!
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LIC:DEL optioncode
Worked for all the licences but not for the bandwidth. Any hint how to remove the bandwidth extension? Thanks in advance!!
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LIC:DEL optioncode
Worked for all the licences but not for the bandwidth. Any hint how to remove the bandwidth extension? Thanks in advance!!
You don't remove it. You just license the original BW.
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MCBD <lic> (lic= Licence for 100M) worked!
Now I'm back with a virgin SDS2104X Plus. But after several shutdowns and reboots the system does not hang anymore.....
:-//
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Now I'm back with a virgin SDS2104X Plus.
That´s what you hope.. 8)
But after several shutdowns and reboots the system does not hang anymore.....
Maybe contact the siglent support anyway, perhaps it´s a known thing for them and they got a explanation.
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Martin you are right! :phew:
After re-licensing everything the system today hangs again! I got a very fast reply from the Siglent service with a recovery file and I performed the
described procedure incl. update to the latest firmware (the recovery image is from 2020) but it still hangs.
Now I have to go for the RMA process |O
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I got a very fast reply from the Siglent service with a recovery file and I performed the
described procedure incl. update to the latest firmware (the recovery image is from 2020) but it still hangs.
And when you do not update to the latest firmware ?
If possible, recover again and leave it as it is, test a while, then update to the latest fw for the "old" hardware (R9) and see what happen.
If it don´t freeze anymore, "re-license" it...
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As mentioned above the hanging starts with firmware 1.3.5R5, I missed the updates. May be I have to many Siglent devices to stay with all up-to-date :scared:
But it hangs with latest firmware too.
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What is then the last "safe" version to upgrade to?
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I think it is not a question of firmware.
I was on 1.3.9R6 (Oct 21) when "boot hanging" started this weekend. I will now send back the device for repair.
(my relpy to Martin72 were I stated "1.3.5R5" is wrong)
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Please report what will be done by siglent when it returns.
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Now the SDS is ready for DHL but in this minute I found in the SSA thread the hint that the SDS can hang when
you use an unusual attenuation factor in the channel menu.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg4298731/#msg4298731 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg4298731/#msg4298731)
I worked when the hanging starts with my LNA for some noise measurements and set the channel attenuation to 0.01 (40 dB) and 0.001 (60 dB).
Can someone check this? You always overcome hanging with repeatedly pressing „math“ during boot (3 times a second). But you must do a real shutdown and not a reboot to check it.
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Now the SDS is ready for DHL but in this minute I found in the SSA thread the hint that the SDS can hang when
you use an unusual attenuation factor in the channel menu.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg4298731/#msg4298731 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg4298731/#msg4298731)
I worked when the hanging starts with my LNA for some noise measurements and set the channel attenuation to 0.01 (40 dB) and 0.001 (60 dB).
Can someone check this? You always overcome hanging with repeatedly pressing „math“ during boot (3 times a second). But you must do a real shutdown and not a reboot to check it.
Just tried it with my very early pre-production SDS2354X plus, HW-Rev. 02-00, FW-Version 1.5.2, Uboot-Version 5.0.
I set both custom probes, one to 0.01, the other one to 0.001, then activated both of them one after the other and did a shutdown via the Utility menu. In both cases the scope booted up without any problems afterwards.
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Now I unpacked my SDS from the prepared DHL parcel and checked it by myself again.
If I set attenuation CH1 to 1:1 system reboots after shutdown and disconnected from mains.
Reconnect to mains ("Power on line enable" active)
System boots.
Attenuation set to 1:100 (0.01), same procedure, system hangs.
SDS is production date April 2020. Latest firmware. HW 2.00
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Now I unpacked my SDS from the prepared DHL parcel and checked it by myself again.
If I set attenuation CH1 to 1:1 system reboots after shutdown and disconnected from mains.
Reconnect to mains ("Power on line enable" active)
System boots.
Attenuation set to 1:100 (0.01), same procedure, system hangs.
SDS is production date April 2020. Latest firmware. HW 2.00
This is the hard bit with any obscure bug, finding a 100% repeatable setup for the chaps at Siglent be be guaranteed to reproduce it. :phew: :-+
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Now the SDS is ready for DHL but in this minute I found in the SSA thread the hint that the SDS can hang when
you use an unusual attenuation factor in the channel menu.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg4298731/#msg4298731 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg4298731/#msg4298731)
I worked when the hanging starts with my LNA for some noise measurements and set the channel attenuation to 0.01 (40 dB) and 0.001 (60 dB).
Can someone check this? You always overcome hanging with repeatedly pressing „math“ during boot (3 times a second). But you must do a real shutdown and not a reboot to check it.
My SDS has the same feature :palm:
I checked only one channel (CH1) and beside 0.01 also 0.999 with the same result.
So attenuation values below 1 will (most probably) produce a system hang after a cold start (mains disconnected) .
The system BIT after startup has maybe a problem with such "unusual" values!?
For details see pictures.
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Puuhh..
This is hard - but otherwise, who in the heck will come in a situation to determine such a ratio ?
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This feature is very handy.
You can build your own probes (e.g. for digital check points with a 1 kohms resistor in the probe and the internal 50 ohms resistor as divider and set the attenuation value to 21:1)
and get the right readings.
Or you have a LNA with an amplification of about 100 and you calibrate it with a known input signal with the help of the channel attenuation factor.
You can e.g. also include the correction for Gaussian noise distribution because we can not do any further math operations with the RMS readings from the measurements.
(or have I overseen something??)
This feature makes the readings of Vpp and RMS (and other vertical values) much easier and should work.
Has anybody else checked his device and can repeat this error?
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Siglent services has agreed, that I found an unknown bug. They could reproduce this behavior.
They will take care of it.
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Test it with my HD, which got two user defined profiles per channel, no problems.
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Test it with my HD, which got two user defined profiles per channel, no problems.
Yes as does the beta firmware for X Plus, 2 custom probe profiles, probe check and a few other fruits and fixes.
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Interesting to see that more and more benefits of the HD will be also avaible on the plus...
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Interesting to see that more and more benefits of the HD will be also avaible on the plus...
:)
They were already in 6kA. ;)
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And on the 5000 I guess.
Strong Scope lines from siglent...by the way:
Rigol ? Are you still here ? 8)
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And on the 5000 I guess.
Yes IIRC, just sold my 5054X…..delivered yesterday.
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One question that came into my mind this night:
How calculates the scope RMS?
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One question that came into my mind this night:
How calculates the scope RMS?
What do you mean?
Root mean square.. That is how? What exactly would you like to know?
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Compared to a true RMS voltmeter as the HP3400 that uses thermo-coupling - how good is a digital scope with non sinoid signals (e.g. pink noise)??
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Limited, as always, by the sample rate and dynamic range. And accuracy, of course. Whether the waveform is sinusoidal or not doesn't concern an oscilloscope. It's just a DSP.
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Limited, as always, by the sample rate and dynamic range. And accuracy, of course. Whether the waveform is sinusoidal or not doesn't concern an oscilloscope. It's just a DSP.
Sample rate doesn't matter for RMS. Folded alias spectrum will simply be calculated properly in a wrong place... it's just energy integrated..
On 2000X HD, with 0,5% accuraccy, you will get pretty good results, as long as scope's own noise floor does not get in a way, like you said dynamic range...
So it will actually be quite wideband and decent accuracy, compared to old true RMS meters....
edited typo
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Limited, as always, by the sample rate and dynamic range. And accuracy, of course. Whether the waveform is sinusoidal or not doesn't concern an oscilloscope. It's just a DSP.
Sample rate doesn't matter for RMS. Folded alias spectrum will simply be calculated properly in a wrong place... it's just energy integrated..
On 2000X HD, with 0,5% accuraccy, you will get pretty good results, as long as scope's own noise floor gets in a way, like you said dynamic range...
So it will actually be quite wideband and decent accuracy, compared to old true RMS meters....
Makes one wonder how good the new HD will compare to the KS34465A or DMM6500 which use computational techniques for RMS evaluation. Recall we did some tests awhile back that showed the X+ version did quite well within frequency ranges where the meters were most accurate.
Best,
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ICompared to a true RMS voltmeter as the HP3400 that uses thermo-coupling - how good is a digital scope with non sinoid signals (e.g. pink noise)??
Even the basic SDS1104X-E with a 10X probe and the 20MHz BW limiter is at least the equivalent of if not better than the HP3400A everywhere except at the lower limit of the HP3400A sensitivity where the noise floor of the scope takes over. There are some slight differences in how you have to use them (the HP3400A can take peak voltages up to 10X FS and still be fairly accurate) but the DSO will properly calculate both TRMSAC+DC (RMS) and TRMSAC (StDev) simultaneously. Or, if you like, you can AC couple it.
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In theory, an RMS voltmeter using thermal heating could have a high bandwidth and good accuracy. Yet the venerable HP 3400 is only specified up to 10 MHz and has its best accuracy of 1% at 1 MHz. At 10 MHz it can already be 5% off. The same applies to low frequencies below 50 Hz.
By contrast, a modern DSO can measure much higher frequencies; the SDS2354X Plus with 500 MHz option should be able to measure up to at least 200 MHz with no more than 5% additional error.
The table below shows my measurements with various waveforms at 1 MHz. The bandwidth of the white noise has been set to 10 MHz. The accuracy of the signal source is better than 1%. While the SDS2000X Plus cannot quite compete with the sweet spot of the HP 3400 at 1 MHz, its accuracy will remain fairly constant over a wide frequency range. As a side note, the 12-bit SDS2000X HD is noticeable more accurate.
The time base has been set to 10ms/div in order to get a lower bandwidth limit of 10 Hz for the measurements, so there’s a bit of 1/f noise included. The sample rate was 200 MSa/s and the 20 MHz bandwidth limiter has been used. No 10-bit acquisition mode, because this cannot improve the accuracy.
| Waveform | f [Hz] | Ampl. [V] | Vpp [V] | AC-RMS [V] | RMS [V] | | Crest [-] | Delta [%] |
| Base Noise | 20,000E+6 | 33,330E-3 | 33,330E-3 | 4,896E-3 | 5,190E-3 | | 3,211E+0 | -99,481% |
| DC | 0,000E+0 | 29,370E-3 | 29,370E-3 | 7,173E-3 | 1,012E+0 | | 14,504E-3 | 1,246% |
| White Noise | 10,000E+6 | 2,633E+0 | 12,684E+0 | 1,151E+0 | 1,151E+0 | | 5,510E+0 | 15,106% |
| Pulse 10% | 1,000E+6 | 2,098E+0 | 2,133E+0 | 598,539E-3 | 1,029E+0 | | 1,036E+0 | 2,929% |
| Sine | 1,000E+6 | 2,929E+0 | 2,929E+0 | 1,028E+0 | 1,028E+0 | | 1,425E+0 | 2,780% |
| Square | 1,000E+6 | 2,087E+0 | 2,124E+0 | 1,032E+0 | 1,032E+0 | | 1,029E+0 | 3,220% |
| Triangle | 1,000E+6 | 3,513E+0 | 3,513E+0 | 1,029E+0 | 1,029E+0 | | 1,707E+0 | 2,906% |
Please note that I’ve used the RMS measurement throughout, since the DC offset is not an issue at low sensitivities (vertical gain settings >5 mV/div). At very low levels and waveforms that don’t contain a DC component, we should use the Stdev measurement (= AC-RMS) in order to get rid of any unwanted DC offset in the DSO-frontend.
Not all measurements make sense for all waveforms. Amplitude measurement is only valid for square and pulse, AC-RMS (Stdev) differs from RMS as soon as a waveform has a DC component, which applies to the base noise, DC and pulse waveform.
Delta denotes the difference to the nominal value, and this is of course meaningless for the base noise. As expected, we get the best accuracy for DC, followed by a sine wave and it is worst for white noise, where the 8-bit acquisition system appears to approach its limits.
Attached is an example for the pulse measurement.
SDS2354X Plus_RMS_Pulse10%_1MHz_1Vrms
Compare this to the SDS2000X HD:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-hd-12bit-(published-for-chinese-domestic-market-only)/msg4309894/#msg4309894 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-hd-12bit-(published-for-chinese-domestic-market-only)/msg4309894/#msg4309894)
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And on the 5000 I guess.
Strong Scope lines from siglent...by the way:
Rigol ? Are you still here ? 8)
Rigol just released the HDO1000 and HDO4000 12-bit series yesterday.
HDO4000:
- 12-bit 4GSa/s ADC
- 4 analog channels, up to 800 MHz bandwidth
- 18 μVrms Front ends noise floor
- 100 μV/div ~ 10 V/div Vertical scale
- Up to 500 Mpts record length
https://rigol.com/Images/HDO4000_DataSheet_PDF_zh%20_tcm4-4912.pdf
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Where did you find it ?
I think it would be better to start a new thread about it
When you do this, I got a comment for it concerning the samplerate that drops down to 1GSa/s when using all channels.
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In theory, an RMS voltmeter using thermal heating could have a high bandwidth and good accuracy. Yet the venerable HP 3400 is only specified up to 10 MHz and has its best accuracy of 1% at 1 MHz. At 10 MHz it can already be 5% off. The same applies to low frequencies below 50 Hz.
By contrast, a modern DSO can measure much higher frequencies; the SDS2354X Plus with 500 MHz option should be able to measure up to at least 200 MHz with no more than 5% additional error.
The table below shows my measurements with various waveforms at 1 MHz. The bandwidth of the white noise has been set to 10 MHz. The accuracy of the signal source is better than 1%. While the SDS2000X Plus cannot quite compete with the sweet spot of the HP 3400 at 1 MHz, its accuracy will remain fairly constant over a wide frequency range. As a side note, the 12-bit SDS2000X HD is noticeable more accurate.
Thanks, this was very helpful for me!
Makes a "low f" FFT (10 Hz....100 kHz) with the SDS2000X+ sense??
After buying a SSA I'm out of the "SDS-FFT business" for a while but the SSA starts at 100 kHz and is not useable for low f spectra's.
See my attached try. I'm missing a logarithmic scale for "f" :-//
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Makes a "low f" FFT (10 Hz....100 kHz) with the SDS2000X+ sense??
I’ve said it before and I’ll repeat it again that a general-purpose oscilloscope is neither a dynamic signal analyzer nor an audio analyzer, even when it can provide more than 8 bits of resolution. The guaranteed dynamic range of an 8-bit acquisition system is limited to about 49 dB and below 1 MHz the strong 1/f noise might cause further restrictions. Most importantly, the linearity of a 570 MHz wideband system cannot be the same as an audio-analyzer whose bandwidth only needs to be far less than one megahertz.
Nevertheless, the SDS2000X Plus and its FFT can be quite useful even at very low frequencies. Look at the first two screenshots, where I’ve measured a 10 Hz sine to 1.07% accuracy and a 100 kHz sine to 0.72% with the very same settings.
SDS2354X Plus_Meas_Sine_10Hz
SDS2354X Plus_Meas_Sine_100kHz
The accuracy of level measurements in this frequency range is generally quite good. The following screenshot demonstrates the FFT measurement of a 200 mVrms (= -14 dBV) sine signal in the range of 0-100 kHz. As can be seen, the measurement is spot-on around 1 kHz to 20 kHz and the error is barely exceeding 1% otherwise.
SDS2354X Plus_FFT_FR_100kHz
The next three screenshots show some distortion measurements for 33 Hz, 440 Hz and 20 kHz. The source is a low distortion (-96 dBc) sine wave, and we get about -60 dBc for the strongest harmonic at these frequencies. That’s certainly better than what we could normally expect from an 8-bit system, yet not nearly enough to characterize a high-quality audio system.
SDS2354X Plus_FFT_THD_33Hz_VBW1kHz
SDS2354X Plus_FFT_THD_440Hz_VBW20kHz
SDS2354X Plus_FFT_THD_20kHz_VBW100kHz
After buying a SSA I'm out of the "SDS-FFT business" for a while but the SSA starts at 100 kHz and is not useable for low f spectra's.
See my attached try. I'm missing a logarithmic scale for "f" :-//
Yes, we don’t have a logarithmic X-axis. It certainly could be implemented, yet the bin-width in any FFT is constant over the entire frequency span, hence a linear X-axis is the natural fit. Consider a range from 1 Hz to 100 kHz. For the lowest decade of 1-10 Hz we might want to have a bin-width of 0.1 Hz, whereas for the highest decade of 10-100 kHz a bin-width of 1 kHz should be plenty. The FFT has to be setup for the narrowest bin-width, so we had to use at least 200 kSa/s / 0.1 Hz = 2 Mpts FFT-length, which happens to be the maximum the SDS2000X Plus can deliver. So yes, it’s possible, but not very common.
Sorry, I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to demonstrate with your screenshot.
Is this the noise floor and some spurious signals of your instrument? Markers without corresponding table don’t make much sense…
A noise floor around -140 dBV looks rather impressive – that’s about 100 nVrms. What are you intending to do? Connecting a moving coil pickup system to the scope directly? Even then you should get a couple of hundred microvolts, hence see signals around -80 dBV.
I have checked the same frequency span up to 2 kHz on my SDS2354X Plus with slightly different settings and got a similar spectrum with the strongest spur of about -107 dBV at the mains frequency of 50 Hz.
SDS2354X Plus_FFT_NF_VBW2kHz
EDIT: description of the noise spectrum corrected.
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The FFT was (and still is) a hot topic in that other thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/functional-comparison-of-rs-rtb2000-siglent-sds2000x-and-keysight-dsox1000/msg4304743/#msg4304743 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/functional-comparison-of-rs-rtb2000-siglent-sds2000x-and-keysight-dsox1000/msg4304743/#msg4304743)
There I’ve pointed out that the SDS2000X Plus can show two FFT plots simultaneously – and thanks to the formula editor the source data can be math results.
LISN: The SDS has a formula editor, which, among other things, allows FFT on the sum/difference of two input channels with only one math channel. That’s probably the trick that Keysight does implicitly to get that functionality out of a single math channel.
Since FFT is a math channel, the SDS can also show two FFTs at the same time. As a consequence, SDS could show one FFT on the common mode signal and another one on the differential mode signal simultaneously.
I’ve tried this and fed the very same pulse with 3 ns rise time and 10 ns fall time and a repetition rate of 160 kHz into channels 2 and 4 of the SDS2000X Plus simultaneously. The upper window shows an overview of the entire record, whereas the bigger window below shows the zoom view of the time domain capture as well as the two FFT traces. The red trace is for the differential signal and the light blue trace for the sum signal. So, in my simulation we have a lot of common mode noise and the differential signal is surprisingly weak, i.e. poor man’s differential probing provides a quite good CMRR of ~46 dB which is ultimately limited by the native resolution of the 8-bit system.
There’s a couple of screenshots showing the spectrum up to 1 MHz, 10 MHz, 100 MHz and 500 MHz – sorry, I forgot to disable the unused markers…
SDS2354X Plus_Dual_BW1GHz_Z1MHz
SDS2354X Plus_Dual_BW1GHz_Z10MHz
SDS2354X Plus_Dual_BW1GHz_Z100MHz
SDS2354X Plus_Dual_BW1GHz_Z500MHz
Yet another screenshot of the 500 MHz spectrum, this time with 10 dB/div:
SDS2354X Plus_Dual_BW500MHz_Z500MHz_Zoom
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Makes a "low f" FFT (10 Hz....100 kHz) with the SDS2000X+ sense??
I’ve said it before and I’ll repeat it again that a general-purpose oscilloscope is neither a dynamic signal analyzer nor an audio analyzer, even when it can provide more than 8 bits of resolution. The guaranteed dynamic range of an 8-bit acquisition system is limited to about 49 dB and below 1 MHz the strong 1/f noise might cause further restrictions.
My interest is not any kind of audio stuff. For audio I have a 192kHz/24 Bit Terratec USB audio interface with analyzing software.
I'm interested in noise of power supplies and low noise amplifiers. That why I asked for RMS measurement with the SDS.
I try to compare the FFT results of the audio interface with the SDS FFT (which takes very, very long @ low frequencies).
But I appreciate your help very much, I learned so many useful things in this forum during the last years!
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I'm interested in noise of power supplies and low noise amplifiers. That why I asked for RMS measurement with the SDS.
I think the results are not too bad. The average DMM usually provides barely any better accuracy for AC and has a very limited bandwidth on top of that.
Just make sure to use the "Cycle" measurements of the DSO like I've demonstrated in my last posting, so you get valid results even when the period of the signal does not happen to be an integer fraction of the screen width. Of course this will only work for cyclic waveforms and doesn't apply to any form of noise.
I try to compare the FFT results of the audio interface with the SDS FFT (which takes very, very long @ low frequencies).
Well, it takes a long time to record very low frequencies. In your screenshot you've used a timebase of 5 s/div, so the record length is 50 seconds and consequently the lower bandwidth limit is 20 mHz. What's the lower bandwidth limit of your audio interface?
This way, your acquisition takes already 50 seconds for a single record and the additional ~2 sec. processing time for the 2 Mpts FFT can be almost ignored. The PC with the audio interface will compute the FFT at least ten times faster, but if a FFT down to 20 mHz is required, it has to acquire 50 seconds worth of data all the same.
Ideally, the parameters should match. There's little use in having a lower bandwidth limit of 20 mHz when at the same time the FFT-length and sample rate are configured in a way that the bin-width is 50 mHz. In general it is wise to stick with a maximum of 20 Mpts record length, configured in the Acquire menu, and use 200 Mpts only when you really need records that long. Of course, this also has to do with the required upper bandwidth limit, but it's hard to believe that an application requiring a lower bandwidth limit in the millihertz range requires a high upper bandwidth limit at the same time. All this is ultimately dictated by the maximum FFT-length, and 2 Mpts is pretty long anyway.
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Hi,
Did anyone open his SDS2000x+ to enhance its perf by tweaking this or that ?
I know it's a pretty weird question...
but I just ask because I'm used to tweak some PCBs on my hifi gear (full digital, no analogue parts) and in that kind of stuff (digital is real-time flow of data, where PDN of the PCBs plays a key role, as well as precise & stable clocking), when you lower the noise of a SMPS, and change an quartz or a XO oscillator by a good TCXO or OXCO (& PS accordingly) => music is nicer.
Based on that "experiences" (don't laugh please :-DD ), I "think" that :
- the main PS into the SDS is a switching PS, thus ripple & noise and so on related to the SMPS
- on the PCB, that I didn't open yet, we can expect regulators (switchers) to get voltages x/y/z to this & that parts
- clock : 1 or several clocks ? I guess it's not a top-notch OCXO. Thus, we have a basic XO or a good TXCO (what kind of output ? no clue...) ?
well... a few basic tweaks that can enhance the hardware, and why not enhance the results.
Does anyone agree with that and has already done some experiments (successfull & non-lethal is preferred :) ?
Rgds
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Hi,
Did anyone open his SDS2000x+ to enhance its perf by tweaking this or that ?
I know it's a pretty weird question...
but I just ask because I'm used to tweak some PCBs on my hifi gear (full digital, no analogue parts) and in that kind of stuff (digital is real-time flow of data, where PDN of the PCBs plays a key role, as well as precise & stable clocking), when you lower the noise of a SMPS, and change an quartz or a XO oscillator by a good TCXO or OXCO (& PS accordingly) => music is nicer.
Based on that "experiences" (don't laugh please :-DD ), I "think" that :
- the main PS into the SDS is a switching PS, thus ripple & noise and so on related to the SMPS
- on the PCB, that I didn't open yet, we can expect regulators (switchers) to get voltages x/y/z to this & that parts
- clock : 1 or several clocks ? I guess it's not a top-notch OCXO. Thus, we have a basic XO or a good TXCO (what kind of output ? no clue...) ?
well... a few basic tweaks that can enhance the hardware, and why not enhance the results.
Does anyone agree with that and has already done some experiments (successfull & non-lethal is preferred :) ?
Rgds
So you think you're working at a level beyond the designers, good luck with that.
These instruments are already some of the lowest noise in their class and not some Yaigol Project knock together.
But if you must, then you must..............
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Hi,
Did anyone open his SDS2000x+ to enhance its perf by tweaking this or that ?
I know it's a pretty weird question...
but I just ask because I'm used to tweak some PCBs on my hifi gear (full digital, no analogue parts) and in that kind of stuff (digital is real-time flow of data, where PDN of the PCBs plays a key role, as well as precise & stable clocking), when you lower the noise of a SMPS, and change an quartz or a XO oscillator by a good TCXO or OXCO (& PS accordingly) => music is nicer.
It could be a little difficult to hear music with the siglent scope.
What I´ve done was to exchange the fan and indeed, it sounded nicer.. ;)
Based on that "experiences" (don't laugh please :-DD ), I "think" that :
- the main PS into the SDS is a switching PS, thus ripple & noise and so on related to the SMPS
- on the PCB, that I didn't open yet, we can expect regulators (switchers) to get voltages x/y/z to this & that parts
- clock : 1 or several clocks ? I guess it's not a top-notch OCXO. Thus, we have a basic XO or a good TXCO (what kind of output ? no clue...) ?
well... a few basic tweaks that can enhance the hardware, and why not enhance the results.
Well...It´s an instrument made by people who are knowing how to made instruments.
Especially your point with the PS...You won´t get such a low noise the sds2k+ got when the PSUs are noisy.
And:
Did you notice that the sds2k+ got a 1ppm oscillator on board, which is somekind of unique in it´s priceclass and much above ?
My hint:
Never touch a running good working system..
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Does anyone agree with that and has already done some experiments (successfull & non-lethal is preferred :) ?
The key to audiophilia and related delusions is that the claims made typically are inherently non-falsifiable. What changes do you expect to be able to claim after modifying your scope?
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hi Martin72,
Did you notice that the sds2k+ got a 1ppm oscillator on board, which is somekind of unique in it´s priceclass and much above ?
Honestly, I can't remember the characteristics of oscillator(s) inside the SDS...
please, could you confirm this "1ppm" ?
Sure ? You didn't mistype ppm instead of ppb ?
"1 ppb", fine => impossible, too pricey etc
but "1ppm"... come on ! I bought from digikey last month a tcxo @ +/-0.2ppm & an OCXO @ 20ppb (with pretty phase noise figures)
If we have a 1ppm oscillator inside the SDS => that's cool ! It means we have there a pretty big room for improvement !
Never touch a running good working system..
"don't do this don't do that".
please, we're here on a EE forum, it's the right place no ?
Of course, if I open the box, it doesn't mean that the SDS will die right away and I'll mess up in trying to close the box.
A DSO is a device like any others ;it's not a quantum computer as far as I guess :)
@bdunham7 :
what can we expect from any modification on a scope ? I don't know.
Honestly, I find strange yours replies => straight saying => "don't open the box, it's perfect"
I find strange because I use my SDS with active probes to do measurements on small voltages at PCB level (3.3VDC at max), and at that level you find interesting stuff : PDN is far from perfect in most devices, and I guess on the SDS PCB too.
Just to understand your replies : what range of voltage to you measure with your SDS ? is it PCB level voltages (3.3VDCmax) ? or mainly high voltages >100V, where PDN at PCB level is of course not an issue ?
Rgds
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hi Martin72,
Did you notice that the sds2k+ got a 1ppm oscillator on board, which is somekind of unique in it´s priceclass and much above ?
Honestly, I can't remember the characteristics of oscillator(s) inside the SDS...
please, could you confirm this "1ppm" ?
Sure ? You didn't mistype ppm instead of ppb ?
"1 ppb", fine => impossible, too pricey etc
but "1ppm"... come on ! I bought from digikey last month a tcxo @ +/-0.2ppm & an OCXO @ 20ppb (with pretty phase noise figures)
If we have a 1ppm oscillator inside the SDS => that's cool ! It means we have there a pretty big room for improvement !
FFS Please, please RTFM Datasheet.....it's all there in black and white:
Time base Accuracy ±1ppm initial; ±1ppm 1st year aging; ±3.5ppm 10-year aging
Siglent felt this was perfectly adequate for a DSO in this class and if you do your homework you should find it's better than most.
They had the dilemma, add a good spec oscillator and reuse the SDS2000X rear cover or add a run of the mill oscillator and a 10 MHz reference input plus rework the rear cover.
IMO they made a good and wise choice otherwise we might be paying a good bit more for these scopes.
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@bdunham7 :
what can we expect from any modification on a scope ? I don't know.
Just to understand your replies : what range of voltage to you measure with your SDS
Well if you want to have the discussion, why not start with what improved result you'd hope to see? As far as noise from the PSU, remember that it is fundamentally an 8-bit acquisition system with a certain amount of front end amplifier noise. If noise from the PSU (the amount that gets into the signal) is well below that, improving the PSU will not do much. The HD model with 12 bits and a much lower noise floor uses an SMSP as well AFAIK.
Same for the timebase. Yes, you could improve its accuracy and stability--but to what end? It may not matter as much as you think for many things.
I use the scope for all sorts of measurements, including right down to the noise floor. I wish it were even lower, but its pretty much best-in-class and then some, so I can't complain. If you can improve it, show us the way!
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Can u use a pencil/eraser-end on the touch screen of these ? That would be great, and I wouldn't even have to stretch as much to reach it, when I get 1.
I've barely read anything about touch screens, but I know there's different types.
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Stability and accuracy of oscillators are two different properties. The PPM figures in the datasheet are for accuracy, not stability.
It's a bit harder to judge the stability in terms of phase noise, but you can try with feeding a very, very stable signal and then setting up a CCJ measurement with histogram and trend graph and then exchange the main crystal with a "better" one and do the measurement again.
The problem is, as usual, that you need an input signal that is significantly more stable than the built-in timebase of the scope. Otherwise you'll not know what you're actually measuring.
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Can u use a pencil/eraser-end on the touch screen of these ? That would be great, and I wouldn't even have to stretch as much to reach it, when I get 1.
I tried with an eraser on a pencil and an eraser by itself, result = no !
It may work with a proper stylus but I couldn't find one anywhere.
I've barely read anything about touch screens, but I know there's different types.
From the 2kX Plus webpage:
Capacitive touch screen supports multi-touch gestures
TBH get a cheap mouse, any mouse and it nearly negates any need at all to use the touch screen and although all the alphanumeric and numeric input boxes do pop up a virtual keypad when you tap them the mouse scroll wheel can also be used to change any numeric settings.
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It's the first time that I hear that someone is keen to improve a scope instead of looking for a better fitting measurement solution.
I'm sure that at the end all the efforts to improve the SDS will not pay out .... but I'm not that audiophile guy :palm:
I spend a lot time and money to improve the power supply and the XO of a cheap chinese arbitrary wave generator (FeelElec 6900).
There is a thread here where many people explain how they spend significant life time for improving a cheap 80€ plastic box.
At the end the improvement result was NOTHING. I removed all the expensive PSU and OCXO stuff and re-used the cheap (1,20 € @ Ali) original SPSU again and bought a Siglent SDG 2042X with
external 10 MHz clock input - feed from my GPS-controlled double oven Trimble OCXO. (would be a nice feature for the SDS as well but I'm happy that the SSA benefits from an external clock)
For me a designated 192 kHz/24 bit audio interface is enough "high end" to do measurements with my Revox B77 or my collection of "high end" tape decks from the 90s. But this pure analog…
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Can u use a pencil/eraser-end on the touch screen of these ?
Pencil eraser does not work. A stylus meant for capacitive touch screens does.
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For the ones who try to understand the consequences of certain settings in the FFT analysis – this is about the window functions.
Why are there so many different windows (only few of them available on the SDS oscilloscope)? What is the best window to use?
There are descriptions about the benefits and drawbacks of the various window functions, yet most folks don’t care and rather want a universal setting that works for them everytime. And fortunately there is one…
There are several features of a window function, and two of them are amplitude accuracy and resolution bandwidth. If we look at just these properties, then the rectangle window would have the narrowest resolution bandwidth but the worst amplitude error, whereas it’s just the opposite for the Flattop window.
So, whenever we need the best frequency resolution, we just sacrifice a bit accuracy and use the Rectangle window?
It’s not that simple. An FFT divides the entire analysis bandwidth into frequency bins. If, for instance, we have an FFT-length of 262144 points, then we get 131072 such frequency bins and at an effective sample rate of 400 MSa/s each of them will be 1526 Hz wide. In this case, 1526 Hz is the bin width and the bin spacing at the same time. The center of a bin will always be an integer multiple of the bin width.
Now FFT-windows behave differently, depending on the offset of the input signal frequency from the bin center. I did the test for the various window functions available on an SDS2000X Plus and used the before mentioned parameters:
FFT-sample rate = 400 MSa/s
FFT-Length = 262144 pts
Bin-width = 1526 Hz
The test will be for amplitude accuracy and the -40 dB bandwidth. Why -40 dB? Resolution bandwidth is normally defined at -3 dB.
Answer: because -3 dB might be most important for characterizing the passband of a wideband structure, but for a filter, where the selectivity is the main concern, the bandwidth at a useful attenuation is even more important, because this is what finally enables us to distinguish various spectral components. -60 dB might have been even more appropriate, but the FFT window functions cannot always provide such a stopband attenuation in certain cases.
A 0 dBm test signal of 9.999084 MHz has been used for the following test, this is precisely 6553 times the bin width, hence the exact center of a bin.
What do we get?
Window Top Ampl. [dBm] -40 dB BW [Hz]
Rectangle 0,058 1710
Blackman 0,038 6940
Hanning 0,038 4360
Hamming 0,066 4260
Flattop 0,027 12430
As we can see, the rectangle window is fantastic. It has a very low amplitude error of less than 0.1 dB and an ultra-narrow bandwidth of just 1710 Hz for -40 dB. Yes, the Flattop window seems to be tad more accurate, but look at the bandwidth – wide as a barn door! All the experts that tell us that the rectangle window should best be avoided must clearly be idiots.
The only problem is, that our signals will not always be an exact integer multiple of the bin-width.
In any practical application where the FFT of a general-purpose oscilloscope is to be used, we often cannot freely define the signal frequencies, hence thy will be more or less off center. Even if we can select a frequency, then most related signals like harmonics and intermodulation (mixer) products can have any frequency offset with regard to the bin spacing. Consequently, we need to take the worst case into consideration, that is a frequency offset of half the bin-width.
A 0 dBm test signal of 9.999847 MHz has been used for the following test, this is precisely 6553,5 times the bin width, hence the exact bin-border.
Window Top Ampl. [dBm] -40 dB BW [Hz]
Rectangle -3,879 96300
Blackman -1,028 8060
Hanning -1,377 10070
Hamming -1,689 6400
Flattop 0,027 12480
This looks very different, doesn’t it? All of a sudden, the rectangle window has the widest bandwidth by quite a margin together with a massive amplitude error. By contrast, the Flattop window hasn’t changed at all: the amplitude error is effectively zero as it was before and the also the -40 dB bandwidth remains unchanged.
So yes, the Rectangle window is the worst choice by far and should be avoided by all means.
What we can see from these measurements, Hanning, even though way better than Rectangle, is clearly not ideal either. Even though it can produce a substantial error of nearly 1.4 dB, its -40 dB bandwidth comes close to Flattop.
Hamming has half the bandwidth but nearly 1.7 dB maximum error.
Blackman has two third of the Flattop bandwidth and a still bearable 1 dB error, so it might be an alternative.
But if we are realistic, none of the other windows has a significantly narrower bandwidth as long as we cannot guarantee that all signal frequencies of interest are at an exact bin-center. As a consequence, Flattop is our best bet by quite some margin.
There are yet other aspects, like leakage and side lobes. Window functions can waste a significant amount of energy in side lobes. The Flattop window is very good in these regards and will also guarantee a usable -60 dB stopband regardless of the frequency offset.
Look at the attached screenshots. They show the filter shape and measurements of each window function for the best case (0.0 offset) as well the worst case (0.5 offset).
SDS2354X Plus_FFT_Rectangle_0.0
SDS2354X Plus_FFT_Rectangle_0.5
SDS2354X Plus_FFT_Blackman_0.0
SDS2354X Plus_FFT_Blackman_0.5
SDS2354X Plus_FFT_Hanning_0.0
SDS2354X Plus_FFT_Hanning_0.5
SDS2354X Plus_FFT_Hamming_0.0
SDS2354X Plus_FFT_Hamming_0.5
SDS2354X Plus_FFT_FlatTop_0.0
SDS2354X Plus_FFT_FlatTop_0.5
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It possibly helps to look at the DFT from the perspective of a filter bank.
See https://www.dsprelated.com/freebooks/sasp/DFT_Filter_Bank.html (https://www.dsprelated.com/freebooks/sasp/DFT_Filter_Bank.html)
...we will show how the DFT can be computed exactly from a bank of N FIR bandpass filters, where each bandpass filter is implemented as a demodulator followed by a lowpass filter.
The window function is the FIR kernel which forms the low-pass prototype for these bandpass filters.
In other words, the window function is eventually the spectrum analysis filter of a windowed DFT, analog to the RBW filter of a SA.
Attached is the frequency response of the bandpass filters that correspond to different window functions, normalized to the DFT bin width.
If the aim is to mimic a spectrum analyzer, then a filter (window function) with a high selectivity and high stop band attenuation is desired (e.g. Kaiser).
OTOH, for a good amplitude accuracy of single arbitrary CW frequencies, a filter with a wider passband is desired (-> Flattop).
Unfortunately both come at the cost of a wider main lobe - there is no free lunch. This can only be compensated by using a larger number of points. Good that modern scopes support a large number of points.
It also seems that many (most?) scopes don't support Kaiser windows, although a Kaiser window has the nice property that it approximates a Slepian window, which concentrate most energy in the main lobe (which leads to high selectivity).
Btw: There exist multiple (different) Flattop windows (I used the Matlab/Octave variant). And Kaiser windows can have different shapes too, depending on a paramter alpha or beta, which determines the slectivity and main lobe width.
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I am considering purchasing this product.
It is better to have a pretty screen than a professional one as a hobby.
This is the screen where the probe tip is in contact with the ground.
It is a screen of dsox1102a. It is disappointing that the gradation seems to be only two to three stages.
I want to see the screen of sds2000x plus with reduced intensity.
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Attached is the frequency response of the bandpass filters that correspond to different window functions, normalized to the DFT bin width.
Well, that’s part of what I was referring to when I wrote
There are descriptions about the benefits and drawbacks of the various window functions
All these nice plots for the frequency response of various window functions are only valid when the frequency of a signal to be analyzed happens to be equal to the exact center of a bin. My screenshots show how different the filter shape can look when (as usual) the input frequency does not match this condition.
The main point of my posting was to make folks aware that in a realistic scenario, where the input signal can have a random offset to the bin center frequency, the usable -40 dBc bandwidth might not differ that much. Regardless of the number of FFT-points, the -40 dBc bandwidth only varies by a factor of about two, so nothing much to be gained by selecting e.g. Hamming and accepting its drawbacks. About the only sensible alternative might be Blackman.
Look at the attached screenshots, which demonstrate a random use case by looking at the 50% AM-modulation by 400 Hz of a 29.6 MHz carrier (these tests have been done on an SDS2000X HD, but results should be the same). Even with 2 Mpts, the sidebands are difficult to separate. In this random scenario, the Signal frequency happens to be about 496605,6 times the bin-width of 59,6 Hz, so this is not even the worst case. So yes, in this border case Flattop doesn’t cut it anymore while other windows do, yet in my view, Blackman is the only viable alternative.
SDS2504X HD_FFT_Rectangle_29.6MHz_M50%_400Hz
SDS2504X HD_FFT_Blackman_29.6MHz_M50%_400Hz
SDS2504X HD_FFT_Hanning_29.6MHz_M50%_400Hz
SDS2504X HD_FFT_Hamming_29.6MHz_M50%_400Hz
SDS2504X HD_FFT_Flattop_29.6MHz_M50%_400Hz
It also seems that many (most?) scopes don't support Kaiser windows, although a Kaiser window has the nice property that it approximates a Slepian window, which concentrate most energy in the main lobe (which leads to high selectivity).
I’m not surprised. It does exist occasionally (e.g. R&S RTE), but why would you want the Kaiser Window in a DSO?
It really shouldn’t matter whether you have side lobes down at -90 dBc or “only” -70 dBc in a DSO that will have a true 12-bit acquisition system at best. Usually, it’s just 8 bits. It simply doesn’t matter for this application. What does matter is the flatness and accuracy of the passband though.
Even in spectrum analyzers, which use at least 16-bit IF processing nowadays, the flattop window is universally used – except some special applications, which might use Nuttall or CISPR (Gaussian) windows (together with the clear recommendation to stick with Flattop in all other cases).
Btw: There exist multiple (different) Flattop windows (I used the Matlab/Octave variant). And Kaiser windows can have different shapes too, depending on a paramter alpha or beta, which determines the slectivity and main lobe width.
Not only Flattop and Kaiser…
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I am considering purchasing this product.
It is better to have a pretty screen than a professional one as a hobby.
This is the screen where the probe tip is in contact with the ground.
It is a screen of dsox1102a. It is disappointing that the gradation seems to be only two to three stages.
I want to see the screen of sds2000x plus with reduced intensity.
Here's a couple of screenshots of the Display menu and most of the adjustments available.
If you want to see something else in particular please ask.
BTW, open input.
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Thank you.
I like the straight line, but I want to see the gradation of the waveform on the noise screen.
At around 30% intensity, it should be similar to the waveform in dsox1000x above.
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Thank you.
I like the straight line, but I want to see the gradation of the waveform on the noise screen.
At around 30% intensity, it should be similar to the waveform in dsox1000x above.
See attachment.
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Big thanks to Performa01 for this FFT windowing explanation.
I have another - may be very dumb - question. As I mentioned before I do some noise measurements with PSUs and the help of my 40/60 dB Low Noise Amp.
Attached you see two screenshots of the noise floor of our beloved SDS.
BW=20 MHz, StdDeviation (to avoid DC contribution) for Channel1 und 3. One screenshot with internal 50 ohms termination, one with 1 Mohms.
If I calculate the thermal noise for 50 ohm and 1 Mohms, BW=20 MHz and room temp of 25 deg Celsius I get the following numbers:
50 ohms: Vrms = 4 uV; 1 Mohms: Vrms = 574 uV
The measurements of the scope show for 50 ohms 37...40 uV RMS (makes sense for me) but for 1 Mohms only 44 uV RMS! :-//
I'm pretty sure that physical laws always works but what is my point of misconception??? How can the 1 Mohms input noise be so low?
Thanks for any explanation!
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All these nice plots for the frequency response of various window functions are only valid when the frequency of a signal to be analyzed happens to be equal to the exact center of a bin. My screenshots show how different the filter shape can look when (as usual) the input frequency does not match this condition.
I disgree with the first sentence. The frequency responses of the window functions are continuous-frequency functions, and valid for any frequency.
But the frequency scale of the DFT spectrum is not continuous, but the spectrum is discretely sampled, at evenly spaced frequency intervals of fs/N.
The bandpass filter of each bin is centered at the bin frequency, and each bin integrates the (complex) amplitude of all frequencies passing through its filter, weighted by the frequency response.
The consequence is that frequencies falling between two adjacent bins simply happen to be attenuated by the filters of both adjacent neighbor bins (so that none of the neighbor bins sees the full amplitude), unless a filter with a passband with of >= 1 bin (and low passband ripple) is used. The frequency response at offset +/-0.5 bins from the center is an indicator for the maximum amplitude error to be expected for single-frequency CW signals.
The main point of my posting was to make folks aware that in a realistic scenario, where the input signal can have a random offset to the bin center frequency
Yes, good point, since many folks are likely not aware.
My aim is to explain some background why it happens - once it is understood, the effect becomes self-evident.
EDIT:
Btw, since you mentioned Gaussian:
One nice property of a Gaussian spectrum analysis filter is that quadratic interpolation of the log magnitude in the frequency domain is exact (i.e. in dB space).
I.e. you can draw a quadratic parabola through 3 adjacent frequency points around a peak, in order to find the location of the peak (both, frequency and amplitude).
Flattop has a good amplitude accuracy for a single-frequency CW signal, but the actual frequency between two bins cannot be determined easily from the discrete spectrum.
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All these nice plots for the frequency response of various window functions are only valid when the frequency of a signal to be analyzed happens to be equal to the exact center of a bin. My screenshots show how different the filter shape can look when (as usual) the input frequency does not match this condition.
I disgree with the first sentence. The frequency responses of the window functions are continuous-frequency functions, and valid for any frequency.
But the frequency scale of the DFT spectrum is not continuous, but the spectrum is discretely sampled, at evenly spaced frequency intervals of fs/N.
The bandpass filter of each bin is centered at the bin frequency, and each bin integrates the (complex) amplitude of all frequencies passing through its filter, weighted by the frequency response.
The consequence is that frequencies falling between two adjacent bins simply happen to be attenuated by the filters of both adjacent neighbor bins (so that none of the neighbor bins sees the full amplitude), unless a filter with a passband with of >= 1 bin (and low passband ripple) is used. The frequency response at offset +/-0.5 bins from the center is an indicator for the maximum amplitude error to be expected for single-frequency CW signals.
You are certainly right - but at the end of the day we want to know how well the function can separate closely spaced spectral lines.
Maybe I should better say that the selectivity and bandwidth can look very promising if checked with a single frequency at the exact bin-center, but the half-bin offset from that frequency will reveal the true limitiations of the windowing function in question with regard to amplitude arror and side lobe suppression. And this in turn reveals how bad the rectangle window (which in actual fact is just nothing) really is.
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If I calculate the thermal noise for 50 ohm and 1 Mohms, BW=20 MHz and room temp of 25 deg Celsius I get the following numbers:
50 ohms: Vrms = 4 uV; 1 Mohms: Vrms = 574 uV
The measurements of the scope show for 50 ohms 37...40 uV RMS (makes sense for me) but for 1 Mohms only 44 uV RMS! :-//
I'm pretty sure that physical laws always works but what is my point of misconception??? How can the 1 Mohms input noise be so low?
Thanks for any explanation!
Your calculation doesn't take into account that the typical DSO frontend looks very different to just a low noise amplifier whose input is terminated with either 50 ohms or 1 megohm.
The input specification already gives you the crucial hint: 1 MOhm // 17 pF. This means that the input impedance is already down below 10 kOhm at 1 MHz. But you are really measuring the full bandwidth - and with 20 MHz bandwidth limiter the input noise will slowly drop by 6 dB/octave above that.
So the contribution of the high input impedance is nearly negligible as long as you don't look at the noise spectrum specifically below e.g. 10 kHz (by means of an FFT), where you will easily find your calculated 574 µV and even up to 20 dB more, because of the very different design of a DSO frontend mentioned before...
Another hint: With High-Z input selected, you would expect that it makes a huge difference whether the inputs are terminated or left open - but it does not. Not even at low frequencies, where it does make a difference, but not nearly as much as one might expect.
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Thank you.
I like the straight line, but I want to see the gradation of the waveform on the noise screen.
At around 30% intensity, it should be similar to the waveform in dsox1000x above.
See attachment.
Thank you sir.
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Your calculation doesn't take into account that the typical DSO frontend looks very different to just a low noise amplifier whose input is terminated with either 50 ohms or 1 megohm.
The input specification already gives you the crucial hint: 1 MOhm // 17 pF. This means that the input impedance is already down below 10 kOhm at 1 MHz. But you are really measuring the full bandwidth - and with 20 MHz bandwidth limiter the input noise will slowly drop by 6 dB/octave above that.
So the contribution of the high input impedance is nearly negligible as long as you don't look at the noise spectrum specifically below e.g. 10 kHz (by means of an FFT), where you will easily find your calculated 574 µV and even up to 20 dB more, because of the very different design of a DSO frontend mentioned before...
Another hint: With High-Z input selected, you would expect that it makes a huge difference whether the inputs are terminated or left open - but it does not. Not even at low frequencies, where it does make a difference, but not nearly as much as one might expect.
Thanks for your explanation! With your hint I did a quick noise analysis in Multisim and got 15 uV RMS noise contribution of the 17 pF/1 Mohms input combination -
independed of any BW settings.
(Yes I'm pretty sure that some of you can do the math with paper and pencil but I'm to old for that :-//)
And that number makes more sense to me. :-+
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Hi,
Question in the round:
The 19" rack mount kit for the SDS2000X, would it also fit for the plus version?
Actual I´m planning a testsystem in a 19" rack and want to include a scope in it, ideally the sds2k+.
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Hi,
Question in the round:
The 19" rack mount kit for the SDS2000X, would it also fit for the plus version?
Actual I´m planning a testsystem in a 19" rack and want to include a scope in it, ideally the sds2k+.
It does, see here from the X Plus Options page at Siglent HQ:
https://int.siglent.com/article/detail-709.html
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Ah, excellent!
This isn´t mentioned on the batronix page I´ve looked first.
Thanks Rob!
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I saw a pallet somewhere in this forum that could change the waveform color of sds2000x plus.
It was like a window's color table.
I can't find it right now. Am I dreaming?
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I saw a pallet somewhere in this forum that could change the waveform color of sds2000x plus.
It was like a window's color table.
I can't find it right now. Am I dreaming?
No, you did see quite correctly.
All traces can be assigned custom colors in all SDS2kX Plus, SDS2kHD, SDS5kX and SDS6000A models.
This feature also includes custom Math traces.
You can see the Display menus for this feature here from a recent post that are from SDS6204A however all Siglent 10+" display DSO's offer the custom trace feature.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg4267966/#msg4267966 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg4267966/#msg4267966)
I've played with it some in the past and it's simple to use, works well and you can return to default trace colors with just a click of a button.
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I saw a pallet somewhere in this forum that could change the waveform color of sds2000x plus.
It was like a window's color table.
I can't find it right now. Am I dreaming?
No, you did see quite correctly.
All traces can be assigned custom colors in all SDS2kX Plus, SDS2kHD, SDS5kX and SDS6000A models.
This feature also includes custom Math traces.
You can see the Display menus for this feature here from a recent post that are from SDS6204A however all Siglent 10+" display DSO's offer the custom trace feature.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg4267966/#msg4267966 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg4267966/#msg4267966)
I've played with it some in the past and it's simple to use, works well and you can return to default trace colors with just a click of a button.
It's smart dresser!
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Reported early in this thread but with barely a mention since is the Reference Position feature in Utility>System Settings.
Collecting our demo from a customer today they asked if the peak of a waveform could be magnified and displayed on the display just as some Tek they had did.
Not being near his lab I said I would send screenshots and a description of how Reference Pos works, now also shared here for those that haven't used or explored it yet.
I've used a very simple example anyone can try with just the probe compensation signal, 3V @ 1KHz.
Yes, I'm in 10 Bit mode so to reduce waveform noise some at the 10mV/div (really 1mV) setting.
The Vertical Ref default setting is Position that we all know we can increase input sensitivity until the waveform exceeds the display vertical real estate but we are constrained be the Offset limits on P10 of the Datasheet.
However when we select Vertical Position = Offset we can zoom in vertically to examine the peak of the waveform as I show in the 2nd screenshot and with the graticule values displayed (Display settings) it's easy to see the real level of vertical zoom.
Horizontal Reference
While here we should mention this too as it is very convenient when we need to have the H Pos away from the normal 0s position in the middle of the display. In the screenshots below I don't have it set to Position but instead in the normal Delay setting where as many will know that if the timebase is changed the 0s position moves with the timebase setting.
If we change the H Pos Reference Pos to Position, changes to the timebase have zero impact on the H Pos setting and it will remain wherever you set it.
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Is there a way to annotate screenshots?
Either by drawing on the touchscreen or adding text boxes in some other way (both would be great). I'm doing a bunch of tests and I'd like to create a labeled screenshot of each response.
I skimmed the thread and searched the manual for "draw" "annotate" "write" or "label". I found channel "labels" in the manual, but those are not really what I need.
I also see that someone in 2021 asked about the feature but they were just told about channel labels. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3544764/#msg3544764 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3544764/#msg3544764)
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FWIW the simplest work around would be to gather the screenshots you need using Save Screenshot in the webserver that will drop every screenshot to your PC's browser Download folder to then simply use MS Paint or similar to add whatever text into the screenshot you need.
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Thanks for the tip, I've got a wifi usb stick hooked up so editing on pc is fairly easy. That can work.
It would still be really nice to be able to label stuff and draw on the screen.
I have to take notes on the order and number of images per test when I'm doing several similar tests in a row.
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Thanks for the tip, I've got a wifi usb stick hooked up so editing on pc is fairly easy. That can work.
It would still be really nice to be able to label stuff and draw on the screen.
I have to take notes on the order and number of images per test when I'm doing several similar tests in a row.
If we use the Save/Recall instead of Print we can easily name the screenshot filenames as a reminder of what they are of and this is easy with the virtual keyboard which we can of course use touch or a mouse.
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In the SDS1004X-E Bode Plot II thread, reply #78, the topic of inaccurate phase measurements between the two separate ADCs has been brought up – something first discovered back in early summer 2019 and quite obviously never solved for the 1004X-E series. The main issue is a phase error up to 40 deg. at 120 MHz and the Deskew parameter in the channel menu appears to be ignored in Bode plot mode.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1x04x-e-bodeplot-ii-(sfra)-features-and-testing-(coming)/msg4368235/#msg4368235 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1x04x-e-bodeplot-ii-(sfra)-features-and-testing-(coming)/msg4368235/#msg4368235)
However, I want to demonstrate that Siglent have addressed these problems at least for the more advanced HW-platforms like the SDS2000X Plus.
The first screenshot shows the input signals. Channel skew is below 20 ps, as can be seen in the zoom view at 500 ps/div.
SDS2354X Plus_PM_Skew_0
The second screenshot shows the Bode Plot for all three channels. Worst phase error is about 1 deg. at 120 MHz for channel 3 – and this could be in the test setup.
SDS2354X Plus_Bode_Skew_0
The Deskew parameter also takes effect here, so we would be able to compensate for runtime differences between individual channels.
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Siglent SDS2000X Plus V1.5.2R1 Firmware Update
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Oscilloscope/SDS2000X%20Plus_V1.5.2R1_EN.zip
Version： V1.5.2R1 Release Notes
2022-08-31
1. Measurement enhancement - Added setup/hold time: tsu@R, tsu@F, th@R, th@F
2. Optimized UI
3. Added SCPI commands for Measure Cursors and clearing measure items in Simple mode
4. Supported LXI (only with the new produced units)
5. Supported time zone setting
6. Fixed several bugs
a) Webserver doesn’t show instrument UI if the scope reboot with a wireless mouse connected
b) Incorrect “Recall” icon in the File Manager
c) Scope freezes with AWG enabled and measure cursor on rise time
d) IP setting of AWG in Bode Plot not remembered after reboot
e) Network storage only works for SMB1.0
f) MEAS:SIMPle:ITEM\sOVSN,ON does not work as expected
g) Roll time incorrect at 1ks/div and 20kpts
h) Raw data not consistent in x and sinx/x interpolation modes
i) Math: Dx parameter of Derivation cannot be increased by universal control
j) Incorrect FFT sample rate
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Impressive :)
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Siglent SDS2000X Plus V1.5.2R1 Firmware Update
Indeed looks like a significant update this time! Look forward to trying it, and especially interested in what the "2. Optimized UI" entails. Would be happy if others share on this board the UI changes they noticed...
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Unfortunately, I cannot tell about the UI improvements for sure. I did the switch to 1.5.2 FW (not the R1!) over 10 weeks ago and this is not the only DSO I'm testing.
Yet I suspect it could have something to do with the encoder handling, as this is a general topic for the UI development.
Another topic that might sound confusing is the "incorrect FFT sample rate". Here is the essential statement in the original bug report:
The virtual FFT sample rate is incorrect when a derivative is to be analysed.
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I did the update today.
IMHO one of the main improvment is the responsiveness of the rotary buttons of time and amplititude. The touchscreen's feeling changed too (now the waveform is able to follow my finger when I move it) but still not as fast as a Lecroy and you can find some changes in the menu as XY mode is available under the acquire menu.
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Any issue with the hacked options?
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I do not own a 2000X+ anymore, but I "dare" to say there will be never any issues in that case.
Because you hack the licenses, not the scope itself.
For the scope the keys are "true", same as if you had buy them.
Other question could be if a new firmware will "allow" that easy hacking in the future.
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Any issue with the hacked options?
No so far.
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As Martin said the hacked version needs the "right" icense so it's undetectable. In my case the FG & 16LA licenses "generated" with py software are the same as the one bought with my bundle and generated on siglent.com. The difference matter only for the warranty if I have to return it. By the way no strange behavior detected with last firmware so I will keep it.
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The SDS has now custom probes and probe check.
Custom probes are helpful for self made probes (simple digital probes 1k:50 Ohms = 21:1) or for using of preamps.
I use it with my LNA (40 dB or 60 dB) for noise measurements. For this I define custom probes of 0.01 and 0.001.
The reported problem with boot hanging when attenuations <1 is solved.
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I had a brief look at the 1.5.2R1 FW and as usual, it has quite a few changes not included in the revision history.
General:
Vastly improved UI-response. In particular, there are hardly any dropped encoder pulses anymore. If something cannot be executed immediately, it is queued and doesn't get lost.
The axis annotation has a reasonable resolution now (~0.1 to 1% of the span).
Improved file manager, with larger icons and a short textual description for them.
Bode Plot:
Scale (dB/div) in the range 1 to 20 dB can now be set from in 1 dB steps.
Time domain view is available in addition to the frequency domain view.
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User kladit sent me a PM, but for some unknown reason I cannot reply, so I have to make it puplic:
Hi performa01,
I also just upgraded my sds2354xplus (upgraded sds2104xplus) to the newest firmware (1.5.2.R1) and looked
at the noise level rms measure with 2 channels (inputs open, CH1 and CH4 both set to 50 Ohms , 500uV/div and full BW, 8Bit)
Both channels showed very similar ampitudes on the screen but the displayed rms values are very different.
CH1 170uV and CH4 463 uV, more than factor two difference.
Can you see the same on your scope?
If not, can you give me a hint what I could have made wrong.
Is it possible to add a screenshot to a message here?
I've found no way
We cannot attach any files to the personal messages and I cannot see your upload.
I can only speculate. Probably you are using the RMS measurement, which also includes the unwanted DC-offset. This can be up to several 100 microvolts and is of course different for each channel.
The correct method is to use the Stdev measurement, which is equivalent to AC-RMS. This excludes any DC-component.
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performa01, thank you for answering this way.
You were right, the differences came from different dc offsets between the channels.
I run a self-calibration after the firmware update and the differences between rms and stdv reeadings vanished.
So the screenshot is not needed anymore.
I used the SDS2354x to get an exact noise level of 0dBm with 40 MHz bandwidth from an SDG6054X.
To set the exact level of 223.6 mV the Measure -> Tools -> Trend -> Trent-Stdv function of the scope
is very helpful to get a 'quiet' reading.
I adjusted the SDG to for a reading of 223.5 mV average(stdv) from the scope, the SDG showed 256.8 mV output at 50 Ohm then.
I verified the reading of the scope with an SSA3032X-R which should have showed a level in dBm/Hz which is 10 * log(40E6) dB lower
at -76.02 dBm/Hz.
The analyzer readout was -75.85 dBm/Hz (f=10MHz,Zero Span,BW RBW=1kHz,VBW=10Hz. AVG=200) which showes a very satisfying
accuracy of Siglent measurement devices. :-+
With a noise-bandwith of 42 MHz the reading at the SSA was -76.0dBm/Hz!
The SDS2000Xplus scopes have more bandwith and therefore a better crest-factor than the old HP 3400A or 3400B rf-millivoltmeters.
Such a scope is a remunerative investment for hobbyists in many repects.
Can you post a similiar measurement with your SDS2000X-HD?
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Does the Siglent SDS2000X Plus or SDS2000X HD has the "All measurement" function in the Measurement Menu that can display all the items of the current measurement source?
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Does the Siglent SDS2000X Plus or SDS2000X HD has the "All measurement" function in the Measurement Menu that can display all the items of the current measurement source?
The SDS2000X Plus currently has 19 Vertical, 17 Horizontal, 16 Miscellaneous and 14 Channle Delay measurements, that makes for a total of 66 measurements. This should already answer the question.
The scope can display up to 12 measurements at once, thankfully also with statistics, as measurements without them aren't overly useful for most serious applications. There is a tab for up to 12 favourites in the measurement type selection, which can be configured freely with your personal favourite measurements. Then you can find and use them quite easily without having to look for them in the bunch.
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performa01, thank you for answering this way.
You were right, the differences came from different dc offsets between the channels.
I run a self-calibration after the firmware update and the differences between rms and stdv reeadings vanished.
So the screenshot is not needed anymore.
I used the SDS2354x to get an exact noise level of 0dBm with 40 MHz bandwidth from an SDG6054X.
To set the exact level of 223.6 mV the Measure -> Tools -> Trend -> Trent-Stdv function of the scope
is very helpful to get a 'quiet' reading.
I adjusted the SDG to for a reading of 223.5 mV average(stdv) from the scope, the SDG showed 256.8 mV output at 50 Ohm then.
I verified the reading of the scope with an SSA3032X-R which should have showed a level in dBm/Hz which is 10 * log(40E6) dB lower
at -76.02 dBm/Hz.
The analyzer readout was -75.85 dBm/Hz (f=10MHz,Zero Span,BW RBW=1kHz,VBW=10Hz. AVG=200) which showes a very satisfying
accuracy of Siglent measurement devices. :-+
With a noise-bandwith of 42 MHz the reading at the SSA was -76.0dBm/Hz!
The SDS2000Xplus scopes have more bandwith and therefore a better crest-factor than the old HP 3400A or 3400B rf-millivoltmeters.
Such a scope is a remunerative investment for hobbyists in many repects.
Can you post a similiar measurement with your SDS2000X-HD?
Very cool! I instantly repeated your measurements! No adjustments done, (SDG settings: 223.6 mV (0 dBm), Noise, 40 MHz BW)
See screenshot attached. both devices connected in parallel, 50 Ohms termination at the end with the SSA-input.
Generator is SDG2122X, same settings as yours. Well done!
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Does the Siglent SDS2000X Plus or SDS2000X HD has the "All measurement" function in the Measurement Menu that can display all the items of the current measurement source?
No, not in the same way as SDS1104X-E.
Sorry all sold out of SDS2000X Plus however AFAIK the measurement structure is very similar to SDS6000A so a couple of screenshots as examples.
Simple Measure is the closest to All Measure in the X-E however in Advanced we can have a list of up to 12 all showing Value, Mean, Min, Max and Stdev plus an assortment of control parameters for the measurements too, like Gating etc.
Hopefully someone can 100% confirm X Plus and HD has the same Measurement feature set.
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Yes, I forgot how to handle the "Simple" measurements... ;)
There is no "All measurements" button anywhere, however we can configure as many simple measurements (without the option to display statistics and restricted to just one channel) as we like.
See attached screenshot for the SDS2000X HD, but it's exactly the same on the SDS2000X Plus. I have simply activated all available measurements for Channel 4 - of course the channel delay measurements aren't available for a single channel. But the measurements set will stay put, so we can activate it anytime and we can change the associated channel without having to define that simple measurement set again.
SDS2504X HD_All_Measurements
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Yes, I forgot how to handle the "Simple" measurements... ;)
There is no "All measurements" button anywhere, however we can configure as many simple measurements (without the option to display statistics and restricted to just one channel) as we like.
See attached screenshot for the SDS2000X HD, but it's exactly the same on the SDS2000X Plus. I have simply activated all available measurements for Channel 4 - of course the channel delay measurements aren't available for a single channel. But the measurements set will stay put, so we can activate it anytime and we can change the associated channel without having to define that simple measurement set again.
SDS2504X HD_All_Measurements
And for this, source can be selected channel main window, zoomed window, math result or saved reference and measurements can also be gated. Least in SDS2504X HD and afaik same in X Plus..
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Version： V1.5.2R1
Although the Time Zone Setting appears on screen, I am unable to select or enter any Timezone information.
My 'siglent_device_startup.sh' script on a USB drive for enabling Telnet access no longer functions.
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Version： V1.5.2R1
Although the Time Zone Setting appears on screen, I am unable to select or enter any Timezone information.
My 'siglent_device_startup.sh' script on a USB drive for enabling Telnet access no longer functions.
Why exactly do you need such functionality ? :-//
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I don’t at present, it’s a historical thing when I was asked for internal information by another prominent member, just pointing it out for anybody else :)
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Yes, I forgot how to handle the "Simple" measurements... ;)
There is no "All measurements" button anywhere, however we can configure as many simple measurements (without the option to display statistics and restricted to just one channel) as we like.
See attached screenshot for the SDS2000X HD, but it's exactly the same on the SDS2000X Plus. I have simply activated all available measurements for Channel 4 - of course the channel delay measurements aren't available for a single channel. But the measurements set will stay put, so we can activate it anytime and we can change the associated channel without having to define that simple measurement set again.
SDS2504X HD_All_Measurements
Thanks for your help.
Would you show how to enable or configure the simple measurements that can display over 50 measurements in screen?
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Would you show how to configure the simple measurements?
I can describe it very simply, in Simple click Type and select the measurement types you wish to add.
Scroll back up to the first SDS6000A screenshot I posted where there are only a few measurement types displayed where you can just add more.
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Would you show how to enable or configure the simple measurements that can display over 50 measurements in screen?
Activate the Measure Menu, select "Simple" mode.
It might be best to start with an empty set of measurements, hence press "Clear". See first screenshot.
SDS2354X Plus_Measure_Simple_Clear
Now press "Type", activate the appropriate tabs (Vertical, Horizontal, Miscellaneous) and select or deselect the desired measurement items. The items will appear in the measurement set in the order they've been selected. If you deselect an item, then other as with the advanced measurements, the item will disappear from the set and the gap is closed. When you select it again sometimes later, it will be added at the end of the set. So you have to be careful if you are interested in a certain order and grouping of the items. See also the second screenshot.
SDS2354X Plus_Measure_Simple_Type
Finally you have a set of measurements. I've defined one that contains what I think to be the most useful ones as an example, see 3rd screenshot:
SDS2354X Plus_Measure_Simple_Set
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Hi,
I have a Siglent SDS235X Plus with the latest firmware 1.5.2R1. Hardware version is 02-04. Since the firmware update this afternoon I have no network connection. DHCP does not work. I can enter a static network address, including subnet mask and gateway. The network icon shows a connection, but I do not see the SDS in the network. Before the firmware update I had a perfect network connection. Does anybody have a similar problem?
THX, Pascal
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No problems here, same FW-update.
The only difference is: I do not use dhcp but an nameserver for my local net and static ip-adresses.
A friend made the same FW-update and has sent me some screenshots today, so he has had
no problems as well. But I do not know if he is using dhcp.
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nope
[attach=1]
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THX for the quick reply. This is another one of those days where an error pops up at the dumbest moment. Yesterday evening the Ethernet switch was still working. Today after the update, the switch had to break at this very moment :-DD. After replacing the switch, everything works fine again. Weekend saved :clap:. THX, Pascal
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And for this, source can be selected channel main window, zoomed window, math result or saved reference and measurements can also be gated. Least in SDS2504X HD and afaik same in X Plus..
Looked at work on the X plus, yepp it´s the same as at home on my HD.
Sources : Ch1-Ch4, Math1, Math2, Ref A-Ref D
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Version： V1.5.2R1
My 'siglent_device_startup.sh' script on a USB drive for enabling Telnet access no longer functions.
Why exactly do you need such functionality ? :-//
I thought this feature was used for disaster recovery, where you provide files for a magic usb stick?
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Version： V1.5.2R1
My 'siglent_device_startup.sh' script on a USB drive for enabling Telnet access no longer functions.
Why exactly do you need such functionality ? :-//
I thought this feature was used for disaster recovery, where you provide files for a magic usb stick?
Disaster, from what ?
You don't need Telnet to play with these things as we have an SCPI command panel in the webserver.
Any command not in the command set gets ignored whereas all the magic unpublished ones work just fine. ;)
It's all here in the forum for anyone to find.
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Version： V1.5.2R1
Although the Time Zone Setting appears on screen, I am unable to select or enter any Timezone information.
I'm having the same issue. I just see a timezone dropdown box with nothing in it and I can't select or change anything.
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Version： V1.5.2R1
My 'siglent_device_startup.sh' script on a USB drive for enabling Telnet access no longer functions.
Why exactly do you need such functionality ? :-//
I thought this feature was used for disaster recovery, where you provide files for a magic usb stick?
Disaster, from what ?
You are the disaster recovery expert, but perhaps when you do this sort of thing?
My 1-week old SDS2104X Plus no longer works. It hangs while booting (see attached picture). Any idea how to troubleshoot it, before calling Siglent on Monday?
Sure, flick us a PM with your email...... ve have the tools !
Not talking about telnet btw, but the fact that running a script during boot is now disabled.
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Version： V1.5.2R1
My 'siglent_device_startup.sh' script on a USB drive for enabling Telnet access no longer functions.
Why exactly do you need such functionality ? :-//
I thought this feature was used for disaster recovery, where you provide files for a magic usb stick?
Disaster, from what ?
You are the disaster recovery expert, but perhaps when you do this sort of thing?
My 1-week old SDS2104X Plus no longer works. It hangs while booting (see attached picture). Any idea how to troubleshoot it, before calling Siglent on Monday?
Sure, flick us a PM with your email...... ve have the tools !
Not talking about telnet btw, but the fact that running a script during boot is now disabled.
Is it, not looked however it won't be long until certain prominent members here find other penetration methods but I know not what for. :-//
All the Siglent Service centers have recovery packages and there's absolutely no need go looking into the OS as the Python script negates any need to.
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Is it, not looked however it won't be long until certain prominent members here find other penetration methods but I know not what for. :-//
All the Siglent Service centers have recovery packages and there's absolutely no need go looking into the OS as the Python script negates any need to.
Again, not talking about looking into the OS, telnet or not. I'm just asking if Siglent broke their own recovery tools by removing support for running scripts during startup. Have you tried the recovery tools after flashing the newest firmware?
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Version： V1.5.2R1
Although the Time Zone Setting appears on screen, I am unable to select or enter any Timezone information.
I'm having the same issue. I just see a timezone dropdown box with nothing in it and I can't select or change anything.
I see references to "/usr/share/zoneinfo/" in the firmware, which on a regular Linux system contains the timezone files.
But I can't see any timezone files shipped with the new firmware. So perhaps it's already included on new devices, but not older ones?
Update: since I haven't updated yet, I had a look around with telnet to see if I could find the files it's looking for:
/ # ls /usr/bin/siglent/usr/localtime
ls: /usr/bin/siglent/usr/localtime: No such file or directory
/ # ls /usr/share/zoneinfo/
ls: /usr/share/zoneinfo/: No such file or directory
Would be interesting to know if "/usr/share/zoneinfo/" exists on the latest generation of devices.
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Is it, not looked however it won't be long until certain prominent members here find other penetration methods but I know not what for. :-//
All the Siglent Service centers have recovery packages and there's absolutely no need go looking into the OS as the Python script negates any need to.
Again, not talking about looking into the OS, telnet or not. I'm just asking if Siglent broke their own recovery tools by removing support for running scripts during startup. Have you tried the recovery tools after flashing the newest firmware?
Them USB so shouldn't be a problem. ;)
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Is it, not looked however it won't be long until certain prominent members here find other penetration methods but I know not what for. :-//
All the Siglent Service centers have recovery packages and there's absolutely no need go looking into the OS as the Python script negates any need to.
Again, not talking about looking into the OS, telnet or not. I'm just asking if Siglent broke their own recovery tools by removing support for running scripts during startup. Have you tried the recovery tools after flashing the newest firmware?
Them USB so shouldn't be a problem. ;)
The script support they disabled runs from USB, so could still be a problem ;)
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Is it, not looked however it won't be long until certain prominent members here find other penetration methods but I know not what for. :-//
All the Siglent Service centers have recovery packages and there's absolutely no need go looking into the OS as the Python script negates any need to.
Again, not talking about looking into the OS, telnet or not. I'm just asking if Siglent broke their own recovery tools by removing support for running scripts during startup. Have you tried the recovery tools after flashing the newest firmware?
Them USB so shouldn't be a problem. ;)
The script support they disabled runs from USB, so could still be a problem ;)
:-DD
Unlikely they set out to break their own tools. :)
-
:-DD
Unlikely they set out to break their own tools. :)
Let's hope so :)
But have you tested?
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:-DD
Unlikely they set out to break their own tools. :)
Let's hope so :)
But have you tested?
No stock but 2 arrive next week and will have the new FW installed before they slip out the door as they're already sold.
Will test them.
Already ordered another 6 thinking the rush on these had slowed after last year's madness but now I'm not so sure another run on them is building again !
Then some businesses are also interested in the HD....there goes some more sales profits to keep them in stock too !
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No stock but 2 arrive next week and will have the new FW installed before they slip out the door as they're already sold.
Will test them.
Sounds good!
Can you also test if it works to select timezone on them?
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No stock but 2 arrive next week and will have the new FW installed before they slip out the door as they're already sold.
Will test them.
Sounds good!
Can you also test if it works to select timezone on them?
Yeah of course. ;)
When we get them the clock is 4hrs slow, Shenzhen time vs NZ time and that gets corrected and probes assigned and compensated before we ship out. Takes but a few seconds to check any of the recent changes and actually will check this timezone thing in our SDS6204A as all I remember doing was advancing it 4 hrs......maybe I need set it to NZ also like in the NTP feature in SDS1104X-E.
Will report findings.....but for now bed calls !
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General:
Vastly improved UI-response. In particular, there are hardly any dropped encoder pulses anymore. If something cannot be executed immediately, it is queued and doesn't get lost.
I would really like to see an improvement, but I can not find it - encoders also miss pulses, especially the vertical encoder. As in previous firmware. :(
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At work we got no problems at all with the encoders and so on.
And we even didn´t have the latest firmware...
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Martin, there is a problem and it is old. If you turn the encoders quickly, the oscilloscope reacts slowly. In the latest firmware, unfortunately, there are no improvements in the encoders operation.
But finally, they removed an insane amount of zeros in the grid labels. Thank you so much for this, Siglent! :)))
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Hi,
If you turn the encoders quickly, the oscilloscope reacts slowly.
It depends what quickly in this way means, why we didn´t had problems with it so far.
As known I´ve bought three siglents and they are everyday "busy", if there was problems with them my colleagues would tell me.
But I can check this mentioned thing on monday.
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Can you also test if it works to select timezone on them?
Dragged out SDS6204A to get a refresher course.
This is much as I remember the UI and you can access the clock settings in 2 ways, one by clicking in the clock box that also has the LAN status indicator symbol bottom right of the display or through the Utility menu.
SDS2000X Plus arriving in a couple days should have V1.3.9R12 installed and will certainly get V1.5.2R1 installed unless there's some Date/Timezone bug however we do have the beta V1.5.2 to fall back on if necessary.
Stay tuned.
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Version： V1.5.2R1
Although the Time Zone Setting appears on screen, I am unable to select or enter any Timezone information.
Timezone cannot be set on the SDS2000X Plus, because the drop down list is empty. It works on the SDS2000X HD though.
I have reported this to Siglent.
Apart from that, I don't think setting a timezone by selecting some capital city is the best way to do it - at least for engineers, who should know what timezone they are located at. It would be much simpler and more obvious to specify the offset in hours relative to GMT instead.
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Timezone cannot be set on the SDS2000X Plus, because the drop down list is empty. It works on the SDS2000X HD though.
I have reported this to Siglent.
Thank You :)
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Apart from that, I don't think setting a timezone by selecting some capital city is the best way to do it - at least for engineers, who should know what timezone they are located at. It would be much simpler and more obvious to specify the offset in hours relative to GMT instead.
Specifying the offset doesn't really give any advantage to just setting the time.
Time zone is how the OS handles the offset, so it also adjusts according to daylight saving time. That is a nice improvement instead of adjusting the clock (or an offset) twice a year manually.
At least as long as we have to live with the medieval time zone system we have now.
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I upgraded the firmware, too.
Version： V1.5.2R1
The time zone cannot be set.
And I measured the broadband noise of the audio dac.
Of the 8-bit scope, I'm sure the noise is the best.
The sfdr is a typical 8-bit scope, about -62db.
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The same setting measured by pico 4262.
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General:
Vastly improved UI-response. In particular, there are hardly any dropped encoder pulses anymore. If something cannot be executed immediately, it is queued and doesn't get lost.
I would really like to see an improvement, but I can not find it - encoders also miss pulses, especially the vertical encoder. As in previous firmware. :(
It's entirely possible that your encoders are noisy. My horizontal scale encoder was, so much so that it drove me to think that the UI responsiveness in my scope was beyond horrible.
I replaced the encoders and haven't had a problem since (I took the opportunity to replace some of the free spinning encoders with detented encoders, and this made setting the trigger point and playing with the cursors, among other things, much better). Note that the encoders that Siglent uses for the vertical and horizontal scales have their pins reversed relative to most encoders. This made replacement a lot more annoying than it would have been otherwise.
I detailed the ordeal starting here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-electricalcomputer-engineer-student-test-bench-equipment-recommendations/msg4091812/#msg4091812 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-electricalcomputer-engineer-student-test-bench-equipment-recommendations/msg4091812/#msg4091812)
And here's where I show the noise generated by the bad encoder: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-electricalcomputer-engineer-student-test-bench-equipment-recommendations/msg4099678/#msg4099678 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-electricalcomputer-engineer-student-test-bench-equipment-recommendations/msg4099678/#msg4099678)
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I just noticed that the :PRINT command from the SCPI command set does not work anymore. I used that for a small script which captures a screen, for command line use. Yes, I know that thsi is possible with the web interface as well.
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Time zone is how the OS handles the offset, so it also adjusts according to daylight saving time. That is a nice improvement instead of adjusting the clock (or an offset) twice a year manually.
Except for when your country changes its daylight saving rules, and the scope manufacturer hasn't applied the latest timezone updates to their firmware, and then you have to adjust the clock 4 times a year.
It's entirely possible that your encoders are noisy. My horizontal scale encoder was, so much so that it drove me to think that the UI responsiveness in my scope was beyond horrible.
Hmm I need to check my encoders. It feels like horrible UI responsiveness to me too.
I did recently replace encoders on my Korad power supply, that was an obvious encoder problem because the setting would "bounce" back to its original value when spinning the encoder and then suddenly make a huge jump. Like 5V->5V->5V->5V->5V->14V. Eek.
My Siglent is just really slow. Actually it feels like the encoder equivalent of a computer mouse with very slow "speed" and very high "acceleration". If I turn the encoder quickly the scope moves quickly but if I turn the encoder slowly the scope moves far too slowly for my preference.
Meh. It's OK I guess.
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Please, please.....it sounds from recent posts there are some encoder issues however no one can know which HW revision any of you have. :-//
Please, give further full info about your particular unit, FW version and HW version too and not just a bitching session but a proper description of what you experience, exactly how to replicate your experience and unless you do a factory Default or post a Setup file for Siglent to load into the same HW unit so to properly assess the problem and develop a remedy.
Best advice is to do a Factory Default and then report the problem in detail in a post or in an attachment.
Siglent don't need your SN# but most of the code is of assistance...like this:
SDS2PDDD5R3***
If we want improvements we must also contribute with good quality feedback.
Thank you.
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Time zone is how the OS handles the offset, so it also adjusts according to daylight saving time. That is a nice improvement instead of adjusting the clock (or an offset) twice a year manually.
Except for when your country changes its daylight saving rules, and the scope manufacturer hasn't applied the latest timezone updates to their firmware, and then you have to adjust the clock 4 times a year.
It's a risk of course. If that happens, set GMT as the time zone and change the time manually twice a year like we do today.
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Hmm I need to check my encoders. It feels like horrible UI responsiveness to me too.
For me, in hindsight, the telltale was that with only one channel active, all measurements turned off, cursors turned off, and the timebase set to something relatively fast (like 1 microsecond), it would randomly fail to detect that I'd turned the encoder even when I turned it only one click.
With the encoders replaced, it is 100% reliable at detecting that. If I turn the encoder relatively quickly, such that I get, say, 10 clicks per second or so, then it will miss some of the clicks. This seems to be because of the processing loop it uses. In particular, it seems it detects the click, then performs the change, and only after the change has completed will it listen for more clicks.
So the question for the board here is: does the latest firmware change that, such that you can *reliably* move the encoder by, say, 6 clicks in less than half a second, and be guaranteed to get a 100x change in timebase?
My Siglent is just really slow. Actually it feels like the encoder equivalent of a computer mouse with very slow "speed" and very high "acceleration". If I turn the encoder quickly the scope moves quickly but if I turn the encoder slowly the scope moves far too slowly for my preference.
For detented encoders, the amount it should move for one click of the encoder is whatever one step is. The timebase and vertical scale encoders are the only ones that are detented. Those shouldn't have an acceleration curve applied to them at all.
The other encoders, e.g. the ones that shift the position of the waveform, might well have an acceleration curve applied to them in software. That'll complicate how the scope responds.
I don't (and didn't) seem to have any issues with my non-detented encoders. I ended up replacing the multifunction encoder and the trigger level encoder with detented encoders because those functions need the precision that detents bring to the table.
Meh. It's OK I guess.
If you wind up opening up the scope in order to do anything about the encoders, then I recommend that you:
* Replace the multifunction encoder and the trigger encoder with detented encoders
* Perform the (very minor) modification to the plastic front panel that I described here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-electricalcomputer-engineer-student-test-bench-equipment-recommendations/msg4124305/#msg4124305 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-electricalcomputer-engineer-student-test-bench-equipment-recommendations/msg4124305/#msg4124305)
The latter is linked to by Rob's instructions on how to disassemble the scope, here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4176037/#msg4176037 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4176037/#msg4176037)
Note, too, that if you end up replacing the timebase and vertical scale encoders, then you'll almost certainly have to perform a modification to reverse the two outer pins, because the encoders Siglent uses for those has those pins reversed (I have no idea why they did that. It beggars belief). See https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-electricalcomputer-engineer-student-test-bench-equipment-recommendations/msg4091812/#msg4091812 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-electricalcomputer-engineer-student-test-bench-equipment-recommendations/msg4091812/#msg4091812)
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Please, please.....it sounds from recent posts there are some encoder issues however no one can know which HW revision any of you have. :-//
Please, give further full info about your particular unit, FW version and HW version too and not just a bitching session but a proper description of what you experience, exactly how to replicate your experience and unless you do a factory Default or post a Setup file for Siglent to load into the same HW unit so to properly assess the problem and develop a remedy.
Best advice is to do a Factory Default and then report the problem in detail in a post or in an attachment.
For mine, the firmware version is 1.3.9R6, UBoot 5.0, and the hardware version is 02-04, CPLD 03.
I don't intend to change the firmware to the latest version until I have some sort of confirmation that it's at least as stable as the version I'm on, because as I understand it, once I upgrade to the current version, there's no going back to the version I'm on.
Of course, I'm not experiencing the original hardware-induced issue anymore since I replaced my encoders. But the scope will miss encoder events if I turn the knob relatively quickly, and now that I know that my encoders are good, I'm positive it's a firmware implementation artifact. The scope catches all the "clicks" of the encoder if I turn it slowly enough.
Siglent don't need your SN# but most of the code is of assistance...like this:
SDS2PDDD5R3***
For mine, that's SDS2PDDD4R1***
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For mine, the firmware version is 1.3.9R6, UBoot 5.0, and the hardware version is 02-04, CPLD 03.
I don't intend to change the firmware to the latest version until I have some sort of confirmation that it's at least as stable as the version I'm on, because as I understand it, once I upgrade to the current version, there's no going back to the version I'm on.
Of course, I'm not experiencing the original hardware-induced issue anymore since I replaced my encoders. But the scope will miss encoder events if I turn the knob relatively quickly, and now that I know that my encoders are good, I'm positive it's a firmware implementation artifact. The scope catches all the "clicks" of the encoder if I turn it slowly enough.
With the mods you have done, can operate the encoders in any normal way and they function as expected ?
Is your usage style weighted towards using the physical controls, touch screen or mouse or a mix of all 3 ?
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Hi,
In the two yrs I´ve owned the 2k+, I never had a problem with the encoders.
In this year, as we got some 2k+ here at work, none of my colleagues got a problem with them too(or didn´t tell me).
So reading here about it for the first time surprised me.
But as I´ve read this:
say, 10 clicks per second or so,
say, 6 clicks in less than half a second, and be guaranteed to get a 100x change in timebase?
My surprise/attention lowers down to sub-zero....
Are there any serious needs for this fast acting ?
On a DSO, stopped, I got all the time in the world....
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I am also al little bit surprised and still don't established any problems with the encoder yet.
May be i am a bit to slow ;-)
When i turn the knob i don't want to win a record unless you
want to be in the guiness book of records.
What possibly can be happened is when the scope do many
measurements at the same time that he loses some signals of the encoder.
That would be the only reason for me.
Regards Chris
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Hi
Just wondering if approx. 250 micro-volts of DC offset is normal for SDS2000X Plus. My oscilloscope shows approx. 250 uV DC offset noise without any probes being plugged in. See attached images for 1mv/div and 500uv/div. In the attached image, channel 1 in yellow has the highest offset and channel 2 in magenta has almost negligible offset. The DC offset amount stays the same even if I remove / reset the manual vertical offset which i added for clarity and easy viewing.
Sometimes it happens that the DC offset is not present when i turn on the oscilloscope but it develops an offset within the first 10 - 20 minutes of operation may be due to warmup. I have performed self calibration multiple times, even at different locations within my home. The self-calibration would fix the DC offset of some channels and it would mess it up by anywhere between 100 - 300 uVolts for some other channels. I have also tried AC coupling & 50 Ohm impedance mode, but nothing helps in removing offset for all channels.
I have also attached an image after one of the calibration attempts. Now, it has fixed the DC offset for Channel 1 (which was the worst before) and Channel 3 but channel 2 in magenta and channel 4 in green got a little messed up. Please advise if this is normal behaviour? Does your SDS2000X Plus behaves in similar manner? How can I fix this DC offset issue for all channels? Is there something wrong with the scope?
Thank you
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...
Is there something wrong with the scope?
Everything is fine with you scope.
Note that your screenshots show some offsets, you might have dialed in by hand, e.g. in the first shot -1.98mV for Channel 2.
Press the lower rotary button to reset to zero for each channel.
Acc. to datasheet the vertical accuracy is +/- 0.5div, which would be exactly 250µV at 500µV/div.
My scope shows about 250µV too, same with inputs shorted by a 50 Ohm resistor.
Enjoy your scope! :)
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Thank you for replying. I understand the manual offset, I added that for easy viewing to show results of all 4 channels. I am more concerned about the actual DC offset which is approx. 250 - 300 microns and was wondering id the scope needs factory calibration.... The certification that came with it claim that its calibration was checked in factory in May.
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Thank you for replying. I understand the manual offset, I added that for easy viewing to show results of all 4 channels. I am more concerned about the actual DC offset which is approx. 250 - 300 microns and was wondering id the scope needs factory calibration.... The certification that came with it claim that its calibration was checked in factory in May.
Offsets can be worse until the instrument comes to full operating temp in some 30 minutes (RTFM) when any Self Cal is performed. As we are all sold out of SDS200X Plus we don't have one to check but other instruments have a Quick Cal feature that can make corrections on the fly until the unit reaches full operating temp or if there is a sudden temp change in the lab.
Check the Utility menu for the Quick Cal feature and switch it to ON.
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Offsets can be worse until the instrument comes to full operating temp in some 30 minutes (RTFM) when any Self Cal is performed. As we are all sold out of SDS200X Plus we don't have one to check but other instruments have a Quick Cal feature that can make corrections on the fly until the unit reaches full operating temp or if there is a sudden temp change in the lab.
Check the Utility menu for the Quick Cal feature and switch it to ON.
Unfortunately, the instrument does not have a Quick Cal option anywhere... Do you or anyone know it's exact location. I can't see it anywhere. The self Cal option is there. The offset does move as the instrument is warming up but for some channels can be as bad as 250 - 400 uV at 500 uV/div after 30 min of warmup. I always perform self calc at least after 30 min so that instrument is at full operating temp.
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Offsets can be worse until the instrument comes to full operating temp in some 30 minutes (RTFM) when any Self Cal is performed. As we are all sold out of SDS200X Plus we don't have one to check but other instruments have a Quick Cal feature that can make corrections on the fly until the unit reaches full operating temp or if there is a sudden temp change in the lab.
Check the Utility menu for the Quick Cal feature and switch it to ON.
Unfortunately, the instrument does not have a Quick Cal option anywhere... Do you or anyone know it's exact location. I can't see it anywhere. The self Cal option is there. The offset does move as the instrument is warming up but for some channels can be as bad as 250 - 400 uV at 500 uV/div after 30 min of warmup. I always perform self calc at least after 30 min so that instrument is at full operating temp.
As mentioned we currently have no stock of the X Plus however the Quick Cal feature is in the X-E and X-U models and mention of it is on P181 in the User manual.
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/document/SDS1000X_E_SDS1000X_U_UserManual_EN.pdf
Beta testers watching, does Quick Cal need adding into the X Plus feature set ?
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Hi,
Played on our sds2k+ at work, can confirm there is no quick cal function.
Displaying all channels with 500uV/div., two got offset.
Did not make a selfcal, pic from it later when I'm at home.
Don't think it's a failure.
The model I've tested here got max 250uV pk-pk after 20...30min..
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Hi,
Back at home..
Ch1 got a offset of appx one division, ch3 appx a half.
2 and 4 are "flawless".
That doesn´t worry me much as our signals to be measured are rarely under 200mV.
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say, 6 clicks in less than half a second, and be guaranteed to get a 100x change in timebase?
My surprise/attention lowers down to sub-zero....
Are there any serious needs for this fast acting ?
On a DSO, stopped, I got all the time in the world....
Is the need a serious one? That depends on how much you value responsiveness in your instruments.
Have you ever typed on a computer where the computer failed to see some of your keystrokes? You'd press a sequence of keys because you're typing a word, and only some of the letters managed to show up. If you've ever experienced that, then you know how jarring it can be. Why do you suppose it would be a jarring experience?
The answer is that your expectations are that the computer will faithfully respond to your keystrokes, and you've built your way of interacting with it around that. If the computer always had a tendency to drop keystrokes, then you'd interact with it very differently, and instead would press a keystroke and wait for the letter to show up on the screen before moving on to the next letter. It would demand more of your attention as a result, and you'd be slower in typing as a result.
This is similar. The scope is dropping some of the requested actions. If you're used to always verifying that the screen reflects the state you want, then it doesn't matter so much, but that does mean you have to pause until you've performed that verification before moving on.
These two things aren't quite comparable of course, but it does illustrate the point. If you've got an instrument that always responds to what you command it to do, then you learn that you can depend on that, and eventually optimize your actions around that. You pay less attention to making sure that the instrument is doing what you want and turn your attention to other things. This results in your workflow improving and becoming more efficient, at the potential expense of errors in the event your instrument suddenly fails to respond as you expected it to.
So ... is this a serious problem here? Probably not. But that it exists eliminates the possibility of a workflow optimization that would otherwise be available.
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With the mods you have done, can operate the encoders in any normal way and they function as expected ?
As a general rule, they function as expected. But a lot depends here on what is "normal" and what is expected.
The more slowly you move the encoders, the greater the chance the scope will see the movement. If I move the encoder one click, then wait for that change to be reflected on the screen, then move it again, the scope will be able to keep up with the movement and there's no issue. It's only when I move the encoder quickly enough that it can't keep up that it'll drop encoder events. And importantly, "quickly enough" varies with what the scope is doing. If it's doing measurements, or especially something like an FFT, then it doesn't keep up as well as it would if it's not doing any of those things.
One major advantage of having detents in the encoder is that it allows you to feel how much you've turned it. This should make it easy to make significant changes quickly and accurately. For instance, it should make it easy to change the timebase by 100x (6 clicks). The issue with Siglent's implementation is that because (apparently, and this is something that might have changed in the current firmware, which is why I asked the question I did) the encoder events aren't queued through an interrupt mechanism or through a thread that gets higher priority than, say, the display processing thread, the end result is that you lose this major advantage of having detented encoders. You simply can't turn the encoder by some predetermined amount and reliably get the desired results from it, unless you always do it slowly enough (where "slowly enough" depends on what the scope's doing).
On my Instek scope, the encoder events are queued, with the end result being that even if the scope's engine can't keep up with the rate at which I'm making changes, it does eventually reflect the entirety of the desired changes. So you might, for instance, turn the timebase knob by 6 clicks, and then over the course of (as an example -- it doesn't necessarily take this long) the next second it'll update the waveform display for each click it detected (so you'll see 6 changes happen over the time period).
The way the Instek behaves on this is the way the Siglent should behave, IMO.
Now, I need to make something clear here. The way the Siglent behaves isn't terrible or anything. It's certainly adequately usable. But it could stand improvement.
Is your usage style weighted towards using the physical controls, touch screen or mouse or a mix of all 3 ?
I use the physical controls almost exclusively when changing the waveform's scale and positioning, or the trigger level. I also primarily use the physical controls (the buttons) for almost every operation that is available through the physical controls. I'll use the mouse for handling the menus and other things that are not readily available through the physical controls. I'll occasionally use the touch screen when the mouse isn't handy or when the touch screen is more "direct", such as when using the on-screen keypad.
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Before selfcal :
[attach=2]
After selfcal (which is very very very long ...)
[attach=3]
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If you've got an instrument that always responds to what you command it to do, then you learn that you can depend on that, and eventually optimize your actions around that.
Man :box: machine.
How can you be sure that you tried to rotate an encoder 17 clicks at 10 clicks per sec? If you don't get 17 clicks, you blame the encoder? :-//
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Before selfcal :
After selfcal
This is how it should be, I expect the same result if I would do the self cal on next monday at work.
(which is very very very long ...)
As the three scopes arrived at work and I started the selfcal, one was remarkable faster than the other two.
It was the one with a different, newer firmware.
EDIT:
Correction, it was the slower one which got the newer firmware:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4141858/#msg4141858 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4141858/#msg4141858)
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Hi,
Back at home..
Ch1 got a offset of appx one division, ch3 appx a half.
2 and 4 are "flawless".
That doesn´t worry me much as our signals to be measured are rarely under 200mV.
Thank you for the confirmation. I checked the datasheet for SDS2000X+ and SDS2000X HD and for both, under the vertical system label
for SDS2000X+
DC gain accuracy ≤ 3.0%
Offset accuracy ±(1.5%*offset+1.5%*full scale+1 mV)
for SDS2000X HD
DC gain accuracy (typical)
0.5 mV/div ~ 4.95 mV/div: ±1.5 %;
5 mV/div ~ 10 V/div: ±0.5 %;
Offset accuracy ± (0.5% of the offset setting + 0.5% of full scale + 1 mV)
They both have same offset accuracy. If I understand the formula correctly and looking at the right thing, it means that as long as the DC offset is within 1mV, it is within specs..?
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Siglent SDS2000X Plus V1.5.2R1 Firmware Update
4. Supported LXI (only with the new produced units)
Regarding this LXI support. What sort of functionality do you get? And why only for new units?
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yes at least +/- 1mv and you can't complain
Currently what bother me the most is not the offset introduced by the scope itself but my probes when they are heating and aging ... (tek P6248, P6243). So a menu as a tek where you can adjust the position of the waveform and the offset would be nice. Currently I have to play with the math function to do it ( or I missed something)
[attach=1]
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If you've got an instrument that always responds to what you command it to do, then you learn that you can depend on that, and eventually optimize your actions around that.
Man :box: machine.
How can you be sure that you tried to rotate an encoder 17 clicks at 10 clicks per sec? If you don't get 17 clicks, you blame the encoder? :-//
Some people might be able to tell that. Others won't. It's going to depend on the individual. I can pretty reliably tell that I've moved it, say, 6 clicks, because I can hear that.
What I can know is that there have been plenty of times when I've rotated it for some number of clicks, and yet get a substantially smaller amount of change out of it. This means it clearly did drop clicks. This is easy to reproduce when you've got the FFT going, for instance.
So let's say that the maximum number of clicks you can reliably turn the encoder is 5. So to get 17 clicks, you turn 5 clicks, then another 5 clicks, then another 5 clicks, then another 2 clicks.
And the encoders are 20 clicks per revolution. So if you want to get 10 clicks, just turn the encoder 180 degrees. You can also mark the knob and thus know instantly whether you've turned it 5 clicks (1/4 turn), or even 15 clicks (3/4 turn), or 20 clicks (1 full turn).
If the scope responded properly, then you'd be able to turn the knob by however many clicks you needed all day long and it'd faithfully get you that many clicks worth of change. The Instek will do that, at least that I've seen. The Siglent won't, at least on the version of the firmware I'm on.
Obviously there are going to be some understandable limitations of this, but the plain fact of the matter is that these scopes are computers and modern computers (even ones with ARM processors) are fast. Blindingly fast. So fast that they execute millions of instructions in a matter of milliseconds. So fast that they can be doing all sorts of other things in the background and you'd never know by looking. So fast that if the UI isn't instantly responsive, it means either that the amount of computation necessary to properly respond to the UI is astonishingly huge (far more than is justified for what we're talking about here), or the architecture of the UI is wrong.
So my question to the board is: does the latest firmware queue up the clicks such that it will reliably change the scales as commanded? The version I'm on won't.
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Obviously there are going to be some understandable limitations of this, but the plain fact of the matter is that these scopes are computers and modern computers (even ones with ARM processors) are fast. Blindingly fast. So fast that they execute millions of instructions in a matter of milliseconds. So fast that they can be doing all sorts of other things in the background and you'd never know by looking. So fast that if the UI isn't instantly responsive, it means either that the amount of computation necessary to properly respond to the UI is astonishingly huge (far more than is justified for what we're talking about here), or the architecture of the UI is wrong.
While in arbitrary generators, be it Rigol or Siglent, I have to admit that encoders are a tragedy. It is in oscilloscopes that it seems to me that this is a user's problem. Who spin the encoders left and right so fast that they don't seem to see for themselves what exactly they want to set :-DD
I even recorded a video with a comparison of Rigol's oscilloscopes once, because on a certain Polish forum there were similar accusations about slow operation. Personally, I try to take my time with measurements as this often leads to very costly errors... With this approach to measurements, the problem is not felt. On the other hand, I can recommend equipment that is many times more expensive than well-known brands, which may also have some slowdowns when turning the encoders (when we spin quickly) :popcorn:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpMaj3Npml0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpMaj3Npml0)
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While in arbitrary generators, be it Rigol or Siglent, I have to admit that encoders are a tragedy. It is in oscilloscopes that it seems to me that this is a user's problem. Who spin the encoders left and right so fast that they don't seem to see for themselves what exactly they want to set :-DD
Certainly not people who are using scopes that can't keep up with their commands! :D
Just like with typing text into the computer, the way you give command sequences to a device will depend on your experience with that device. If it tends to drop commands on the floor then you're going to take your time to be certain that it lands in the state you want it to. You won't trust the device to do the right thing. Similarly, if your computer tends to drop letters that you type on the floor, you're going to be very careful with typing to make sure that what you've typed shows up properly. If, on the other hand, your experience is that it reliably obeys your command sequences then you'll learn to relax your oversight of it.
That may or may not be a good thing, depending on the likelihood of error on its part and the importance of exactly the right settings.
Either way, the point here is that these devices are so incredibly fast compared to humans that there's really no good reason for them to not be able to keep up with human inputs. Our inputs are glacial to them. That means that failure of the device to keep up with human commands to it is an architectural defect, plain and simple.
I even recorded a video with a comparison of Rigol's oscilloscopes once, because on a certain Polish forum there were similar accusations about slow operation. Personally, I try to take my time with measurements as this often leads to very costly errors... With this approach to measurements, the problem is not felt :popcorn:
Of course. But then at the same time, you're forced to spend more time on setting up the instrument than you might otherwise. Not an enormous amount of difference, mind you, but an instrument that reliably obeys your commands is one that allows you to turn your attention to higher level things.
For the Siglent, how usable the scope is with respect to making changes to the settings depends on what it's doing. Turning on the FFT will seriously compromise its responsiveness when you operate the controls, for instance. It's not the end of the world or anything, of course.
Those here who are skeptical of the value of a highly responsive user interface in a scope should try using an Instek scope or, especially, a Keysight scope. The Instek is very fast. The Keysight is instantaneous. It's only when you go back to a slower scope that you realize just how unresponsive the slower scope really is.
We tend to be very capable of adapting to the demands of different equipment. That works in our favor, but does not diminish the value of a fast UI.
If you want to really see the value of a fast UI, I have a suggestion: keep your computer on 24x7, install and use Firefox, and keep Firefox open for as long as you can stand. You'll find that it tends to get slower over time, perhaps to the point of frustration. That frustration is proof that you value a fast UI. And if you value a fast UI in a computer, why don't you similarly value one in a scope, or anything else that you interact with?
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@kcbrown
Let me say this ... I am dealing with relatively cheap equipment at home (Rigol, Siglent or lower models of well-known brands). They all have some shortcomings, which unfortunately are compensated by their price (although in the case of lower models of well-known brands it hurts more because for their price I could buy more equipment, eg Siglent).
Professionally, I have access to equipment that often costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, and I can see the difference - but I am aware that I cannot demand the same from equipment that costs a fraction of the cost of professional equipment.
You can always spend money on some Tektronix instead of cheap Siglent and be "satisfied"...
...but I'm not entirely sure about this satisfaction, for example, looking at this film.:-//
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlwcdUnRw6w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlwcdUnRw6w)
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Thank you KC as I always enjoy your well reasoned and knowledgeable responses based on some real experience. :-+
For the Siglent, how usable the scope is with respect to making changes to the settings depends on what it's doing. Turning on the FFT will seriously compromise its responsiveness when you operate the controls, for instance. It's not the end of the world or anything, of course.
However with the FFT have you tried changing default settings to something that better matches competitors capabilities and notice how snappy FFT becomes ?
Maybe it's well overdue you do. ;)
Certainly FFT speed with default settings isn't a racehorse however offering some of the best spec in this class why does it need to be as choices are precision or speed.
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However with the FFT have you tried changing default settings to something that better matches competitors capabilities and notice how snappy FFT becomes ?
Maybe it's well overdue you do. ;)
Certainly FFT speed with default settings isn't a racehorse however offering some of the best spec in this class why does it need to be as choices are precision or speed.
It's not the FFT speed that's the issue. That part is very good, actually. My point is that turning on the FFT compromises the responsiveness of the controls. It causes the UI to drop a lot more of the encoder events.
And that's with very modest FFT settings. 32k points, Hanning window, and a starting timebase such that there are 400 points in the capture. With this, a single click of the timebase encoder causes the scope to take about a third of a second to change the timebase. Turn the timebase knob at more than 2 clicks per second and it'll miss events.
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Let me say this ... I am dealing with relatively cheap equipment at home (Rigol, Siglent or lower models of well-known brands). They all have some shortcomings, which unfortunately are compensated by their price (although in the case of lower models of well-known brands it hurts more because for their price I could buy more equipment, eg Siglent).
Professionally, I have access to equipment that often costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, and I can see the difference - but I am aware that I cannot demand the same from equipment that costs a fraction of the cost of professional equipment.
That's certainly true. But keep in mind that any sane manufacturer, which Siglent is, will use the same base code across their range and over time as well.
This means that changes to the base code, which includes changes to the UI processing architecture, will be applicable across all their models both now and in the future.
The way I see it, this is a question of design. Perhaps Siglent hasn't hired someone who really knows what he's doing when it comes to architecting the UI processing code. Or maybe the issue is even deeper than that, and has to do with how thread execution is prioritized. Since Siglent is using a Linux kernel as their base, fixing the latter should be relatively straightforward, since they can instruct the scheduler about the relative priority of threads as well as the scheduling algorithm the kernel should use.
Fast, efficient UIs are something that the computing field at large has known how to implement for decades now. Scopes today are executing on hardware that is equivalent in speed to state-of-the-art computers of perhaps a decade ago, if not less. So it's not like the necessary horsepower isn't there.
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It is a trend that program code is now written to be programmer readable and easy to develop. Unfortunately, this often translates into the fact that the code is not optimal. In the case of PC programs, this is not a problem because the customer will buy a new, faster computer. For embedded hardware, this is more complicated as a faster processor is a cost. Even one dollar saved in a device can save a million dollars in series production.
Such a thing can be noticed not only when buying Siglent, but also cheaper models of well-known companies (where you can also see the savings) - even though they often cost a lot more than Siglent. For more expensive hardware that is not produced in large quantities, adding a faster processor to make up for suboptimal code is less of a problem.
To sum up, you now want to have a nice fast measuring equipment with a small number of flaws, you have to spend a lot of money - that's the sad truth. In the past, companies cared more about the customer, now corporations only look at how much money can be pulled from the customer and we have such an effect.
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Fast, efficient UIs are something that the computing field at large has known how to implement for decades now. Scopes today are executing on hardware that is equivalent in speed to state-of-the-art computers of perhaps a decade ago, if not less. So it's not like the necessary horsepower isn't there.
All true but one cannot forget that scopes are realtime devices that have timing constraints all around.
So, it's not only a matter of doing all things a lot faster. It's all about fulfilling the preemptive multitasking within a certain timeframe, be it at 1 MHz or 1 THz.
Assigning a high priority to the manual encoder just so that it doesn't loose a click may be a nightmare when we have tens/hundreds of other more important tasks. Of course we can buffer the encoder BUT, in my book, I also don't like to see all the buffered movements appear in rapid sequence just because they had been accumulating in the buffer, and now they got their turn. Since I had no way of knowing how the buffering was working, the most probable thing that would happen is that I would over turn the encoder just because I didn't have any type of visual feedback.
Providing a lossy feedback, where we loose some clicks, is sometimes the best compromise between the gamers that became TEA and the retirees who have all the time in the world to rotate an encoder at 1-click/sec.
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With this, a single click of the timebase encoder causes the scope to take about a third of a second to change the timebase. Turn the timebase knob at more than 2 clicks per second and it'll miss events.
I have no idea how it behaves on SDS2000X+ because I don't have one.
But I can tell you those two things you mention are not necessarily connected. On my SDS6000 and SDS2000 X HD it works same as keyboard on your PC: it will capture knob clicks even if it doesn't update screen immediately. Actually, if you start moving knobs too fast it will stop screen updates and wait for you to stop moving target and decide what do you want before it starts updating scope settings and screen. What is practical purpose for a scope to change timebase 72 times a second while you're twiddling the knob frantically...? Any intermediate acquisitions are null and void, and user obviously doesn't want them...
In a nutshell, if I change timebase 5 steps very quickly (that is how much I can turn quickly and still know what it was, i can hear quintuples, musically) scope will pause for few 100 of ms and then it goes there. Nothing gets lost. intermediate steps (2,3 and for 4) are not being used. Vertical control too..
I'm also curious how people can turn buttons at 240 RPM equivalent speed and be certain that it was exactly 11 steps..
Funny number from a Bourns good quality equivalent encoder... MAX rotation speed 60 RPM........ ^-^
Up to that max speed they guarantee bounce time 3-4ms.. That is sloow rotation, one rotation per second.
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Fast, efficient UIs are something that the computing field at large has known how to implement for decades now. Scopes today are executing on hardware that is equivalent in speed to state-of-the-art computers of perhaps a decade ago, if not less. So it's not like the necessary horsepower isn't there.
All true but one cannot forget that scopes are realtime devices that have timing constraints all around.
So, it's not only a matter of doing all things a lot faster. It's all about fulfilling the preemptive multitasking within a certain timeframe, be it at 1 MHz or 1 THz.
And that would matter if the realtime nature of the scope needed to be maintained as the controls are manipulated.
But it doesn't. When you manipulate the controls of the Siglent, it throws away the history. This is because the capture parameters are being changed. As such, the realtime characteristics no longer need to be maintained. In fact, some scopes stop all processing altogether while it handles the UI, precisely because their manufacturers recognize that manipulation of the UI means that the user wants to change something, which means that the realtime processing is no longer relevant.
Furthermore, what we're talking about here is a tiny amount of processing, namely that which is sufficient to see and record the control changes. Nothing more. Remember that the scope executes billions of instructions per second per core, and the number of instructions necessary to record the control changes is in the thousands of instructions range, which means that the amount of wall clock time that should be necessary for this operation should be in the microseconds range (at most! In reality, a properly optimized control recording mechanism would be hundreds of instructions long, not thousands).
The problem here isn't that the scope's display isn't keeping up with the controls, it's that it's dropping control events on the floor.
Assigning a high priority to the manual encoder just so that it doesn't loose a click may be a nightmare when we have tens/hundreds of other more important tasks.
The user is making changes on the scope. What in the world is more important than recognizing and responding to those changes?
In fact, nothing prevents the manufacturer from stating up front that if the user wants the scope to faithfully and reliably perform captures and analysis of the captures, then he must refrain from manipulating the controls. Given the fact that, firstly, the amount of processing required to capture and record the control input events is comparatively tiny and, secondly, the trigger re-arm time is itself present and variable, I see no justification for insisting that the scope drop control events on the floor even if the processing wasn't going to be thrown away anyway.
Of course we can buffer the encoder BUT, in my book, I also don't like to see all the buffered movements appear in rapid sequence just because they had been accumulating in the buffer, and now they got their turn.
The proper approach to processing of buffered movements is to consolidate them and to make the appropriate changes after consolidation. End result: multiple "clicks" of the encoder, but one actual change to the scope. For instance, if it buffered 3 "clicks" of the timebase, it would immediately make a 10x change to the timebase.
Since I had no way of knowing how the buffering was working, the most probable thing that would happen is that I would over turn the encoder just because I didn't have any type of visual feedback.
But you have tactile feedback. That's the whole point of the detents!
Providing a lossy feedback, where we loose some clicks, is sometimes the best compromise between the gamers that became TEA and the retirees who have all the time in the world to rotate an encoder at 1-click/sec.
I don't see how. From the user's standpoint, dropping events on the floor doesn't gain you any advantages and makes the response of the scope unpredictable. A piece of equipment that's unpredictable in how it responds is a piece of equipment that you have to pay an inordinate amount of attention to when manipulating it. If you don't believe me, try typing on something that randomly drops your keypresses. I guarantee you'll find it a frustrating experience.
In fact, Siglent's very own implementation already negates your entire argument. It does not drop mouse movement events on the floor. The mouse pointer can sometimes be seen to be updated less often when there's a lot going on (e.g., the FFT is going), but that movement still faithfully tracks your mouse movement itself. This proves once and for all that the scope has the capability of buffering control events properly.
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I have no idea how it behaves on SDS2000X+ because I don't have one.
Sounds like they got the UI flow right on the 6000 and the 2000X HD.
But I can tell you those two things you mention are not necessarily connected. On my SDS6000 and SDS2000 X HD it works same as keyboard on your PC: it will capture knob clicks even if it doesn't update screen immediately. Actually, if you start moving knobs too fast it will stop screen updates and wait for you to stop moving target and decide what do you want before it starts updating scope settings and screen. What is practical purpose for a scope to change timebase 72 times a second while you're twiddling the knob frantically...? Any intermediate acquisitions are null and void, and user obviously doesn't want them...
This is exactly how it should work. It doesn't on the 2000X+, but that's on the version of the firmware that I'm on, which is not the latest.
So I'm very interested in knowing if, in the latest firmware, Siglent changed the 2000X+ behavior to match what you're seeing in the 6000 and the 2000X HD.
In a nutshell, if I change timebase 5 steps very quickly (that is how much I can turn quickly and still know what it was, i can hear quintuples, musically) scope will pause for few 100 of ms and then it goes there. Nothing gets lost. intermediate steps (2,3 and for 4) are not being used. Vertical control too..
I'm also curious how people can turn buttons at 240 RPM equivalent speed and be certain that it was exactly 11 steps..
Funny number from a Bourns good quality equivalent encoder... MAX rotation speed 60 RPM........ ^-^
Up to that max speed they guarantee bounce time 3-4ms.. That is sloow rotation, one rotation per second.
60 RPM is one rotation per second, which is 20 clicks per second, an order of magnitude faster than the 2 clicks per second I noted and which you responded to.
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So I'm very interested in knowing if, in the latest firmware, Siglent changed the 2000X+ behavior to match what you're seeing in the 6000 and the 2000X HD.
Try the new firmware then you´ll know it. ;)
Me I´ve decided to "sacrifice" one our three scopes for installing the latest fw next week.
Sounds like they got the UI flow right on the 6000 and the 2000X HD.
The first thing I´ve noticed on my 2000X HD were the encoders, the "look and feel" of them is remarkable more "pro" than on the X+.
But that was to be expected by a scope which costs more than double.
Maybe they did some finetuning in the UI too according to the different encoders, I don´t know.
Apart from this, the UI is not very similar to the X+, it´s identical.
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So I'm very interested in knowing if, in the latest firmware, Siglent changed the 2000X+ behavior to match what you're seeing in the 6000 and the 2000X HD.
Try the new firmware then you´ll know it. ;)
If it weren't for the fact that once I upgrade to this new version of the firmware, I can't go back, I would.
But Siglent has, as I understand it, prevented installation of older versions of the firmware with the latest couple of updates.
Me I´ve decided to "sacrifice" one our three scopes for installing the latest fw next week.
Another reason I'm at least delaying installation of the new firmware is that I have no idea how stable it is, what issues it has, etc. Again, if I could downgrade back to the version I'm currently on, none of this would be an issue.
The first thing I´ve noticed on my 2000X HD were the encoders, the "look and feel" of them is remarkable more "pro" than on the X+.
But that was to be expected by a scope which costs more than double.
I wonder how their feel compares with the Bourns encoders I'm now using in my scope.
Also, as I understand it, all the encoders on the 6000, and perhaps even the 2000X HD, are detented. That was absolutely the right choice on their part IMO, because it makes precise settings much easier.
Maybe they did some finetuning in the UI too according to the different encoders, I don´t know.
Apart from this, the UI is not very similar to the X+, it´s identical.
That's what I'd expect and hope for. So it gives me hope that maybe the latest firmware update has changed the input processing to properly buffer control events.
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The user is making changes on the scope. What in the world is more important than recognizing and responding to those changes?
Processing its input channels... ::) A scope is not a gaming pad.
But, no problem, I'll buffer further comments. :)
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Also, as I understand it, all the encoders on the 6000, and perhaps even the 2000X HD, are detented.
Yes, all encoders including the ones for position, do have a "fine-clicking"... :D
But Siglent has, as I understand it, prevented installation of older versions of the firmware with the latest couple of updates
Yap, first it cames up with the firmware you don´t need to install when you got an older version of the scope.
The last two firmwares before the actual one was only for the "newer" hardware useful, afaik.
The actual is now for all hardware versions.
If there is really a no turn back, only the cracks here would know. ;)
That's what I'd expect and hope for.
When I understand the beta-testers here correctly, the 2000X+, 5000, 6000A, 2000X HD, are sharing the same UI.
When a problem is detected and fixed, all versions will be affected when it will be needed.
Also what feature enhancements concerns, but this depends on the capability of the hardware.
Probe check for example, first on my HD (and 6000?), now also on the 5000 and, with the latest firmware, on the 2000Xplus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ5t_Vdr9os (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ5t_Vdr9os)
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...
60 RPM is one rotation per second, which is 20 clicks per second, an order of magnitude faster than the 2 clicks per second I noted and which you responded to.
Yeah, I saw that wrong... Sorry for that... 2 clicks per second is not very fast.. You are right.
I must have confused your post with somebody else... There a pages and pages..
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The user is making changes on the scope. What in the world is more important than recognizing and responding to those changes?
Processing its input channels... ::) A scope is not a gaming pad.
But the user is making changes to the scope's configuration, which generally affects the input channel processing.
In what way is processing the input channels more important than processing the changes the user is making to the input channel processing?
Here's the deal: the scope is built for the user, not the other way around. The user purchased the scope to do things for him, after all. As such, it clearly follows that the scope should be doing what the user commands when the user commands it, to the maximum degree possible. After all, if the user wishes the scope to continue processing the channels in their current configuration, he will simply refrain from making changes to them.
But, no problem, I'll buffer further comments. :)
:D
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But Siglent has, as I understand it, prevented installation of older versions of the firmware with the latest couple of updates
Yap, first it cames up with the firmware you don´t need to install when you got an older version of the scope.
The last two firmwares before the actual one was only for the "newer" hardware useful, afaik.
The actual is now for all hardware versions.
If there is really a no turn back, only the cracks here would know. ;)
There is a file in the firmware directory that specifies its version, and looks like the update procedure compares against 1.3.9R10.
So perhaps not impossible to downgrade to an old version by faking the version number. Don't know how safe it would be though. Definitely not safe for new units.
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Me I´ve decided to "sacrifice" one our three scopes for installing the latest fw next week.
If you wouldn't mind performing an experiment once you've done the upgrade, it would be very helpful.
Feed the scope a 10 MHz waveform. Set your timebase to 20 ns/div. Set up FFT against the channel with 32k points and a Hanning window, split display, in normal mode.
Now turn the timebase knob 2 or 3 clicks to the left in fairly quick succession (say, within a quarter second).
With the FFT on like that, if it doesn't buffer the clicks, then it'll change the timebase by only 1 click and will drop the rest (this is what it does on my scope, at any rate). If it does buffer the clicks then it'll change the timebase by however many clicks you moved the encoder by.
You can experiment with turning the timebase knob with that setup. If it's buffering the encoder events then it should reliably change the timebase, such that if you move the encoder by some number of clicks to the left, moving it by that number of clicks to the right at a slow speed will reliably restore the timebase to its original value.
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Hi,
did the upgrade on one of the scopes.
Made the suggested setup, move the timebase.
In "normal speed" (say 0.5..1s/click), with every "click" timebase will be changed, e.g. 50ns/100ns/200ns.
Doing this "faster" it changes one time, e.g. from 20 to 50ns inbetween 3 clicks.
For me it´s normal behaviour which it did also before the upgrade.
Can test the same on unlikely more expensive lecroy scopes and/or my 2K HD, but I bet it won´t be different.
OK, maybe not - I didn´t made any "highspeed" tests before, there was no need for.
Martin
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Can test the same on unlikely more expensive lecroy scopes and/or my 2K HD, but I bet it won´t be different.
There is reason to test this on Keysight and R&S scopes. The difference will be huge! Of course, not in favor of Siglent.
In fact, I think the priorities are simply wrong: the user interface should have the highest priority over all other processes. If the user intervenes in the device operation, then his intervention is the most important thing!
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Can test the same on unlikely more expensive lecroy scopes and/or my 2K HD, but I bet it won´t be different.
There is reason to test this on Keysight and R&S scopes. The difference will be huge! Of course, not in favor of Siglent.
This limitation has its plus, you don't need to target exactly one click of the encoder to go one range higher/lower. I am afraid that the exact conversion of one click to the time base change would be downright problematic and would make operation very difficult.
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The difference will be huge!
But for what was it good for except reducing the lifetime of the encoder...
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It makes no difference to the encoder whether you make 10 clicks per second or the same 10 clicks in 5 seconds.
This is just annoying when you need to quickly change the timebase or gain by a large amount. Encoders have to be turned slowly, the device does not have time to respond :(
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It makes no difference to the encoder whether you make 10 clicks per second or the same 10 clicks in 5 seconds.
This is just annoying when you need to quickly change the timebase or gain by a large amount. Encoders have to be turned slowly, the device does not have time to respond :(
I never really have to jump from end to end quickly, changing the time base. Anyway, instead of 1400 euros on Siglent, you can spend 30000 euros on R&S and perhaps the problems will disappear. Sorry, but I don't understand a bit of people who buy cheap equipment and want to compare it with equipment 30 times more expensive. I have an Agilent DSOX 3054A at home, which costs a lot more and somehow I don't see any major differences in handling with the Siglent. In addition, I'm going to buy the SDS2000 HD version... ...I must be a bit weird that I want to spend so much money on a lousy Siglent :palm:
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For some reason, many people believe that if they do not need something - no one needs it. :(
I have two scopes in my home lab: RTB2000 and SDS2000X+. They are in the same price range. But UI responsiveness in RTB2000 is impeccable.
Therefore, there is no need to talk about overpaying for convenience.
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For some reason, many people believe that if they do not need something - no one needs it. :(
I have two scopes in my home lab: RTB2000 and SDS2000X+. They are in the same price range. But UI responsiveness in RTB2000 is impeccable.
Therefore, there is no need to talk about overpaying for convenience.
It remains to sell Siglent and buy R&S for this amount and the problems will end, why bother with poor equipment ? After all, no one is forcing anyone to buy this company's equipment if it is so bad... If some equipment does not suit me, I give it to the company where I bought it and I have the problem solved...
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In addition, I'm going to buy the SDS2000 HD version... ...I must be a bit weird that I want to spend so much money on a lousy Siglent :palm:
I feel with you, since june I got this lousy thing... 8)
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For some reason, many people believe that if they do not need something - no one needs it. :(
I have two scopes in my home lab: RTB2000 and SDS2000X+. They are in the same price range. But UI responsiveness in RTB2000 is impeccable.
Therefore, there is no need to talk about overpaying for convenience.
There is quite a lot of price difference between these two scopes. If you buy SDS200X+ and logic probe and license, you are still under 2000€ and have basic decode protocols included. Basic RTB2000 is 70 MHz, and doesn't even have segmented memory enabled or even basic protocols. Equivalent to that Siglent would be RTB2K-104M + RTB-PK1 Option bundle and that combined is 3900+1500€. That price is so stupid that it pays to buy full package for 4200€.
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For some reason, many people believe that if they do not need something - no one needs it. :(
I have two scopes in my home lab: RTB2000 and SDS2000X+. They are in the same price range. But UI responsiveness in RTB2000 is impeccable.
Therefore, there is no need to talk about overpaying for convenience.
They are not in the same price range. For ~1.5K you'll get the R&S with two channels.
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In addition, I'm going to buy the SDS2000 HD version... ...I must be a bit weird that I want to spend so much money on a lousy Siglent :palm:
I feel with you, since june I got this lousy thing... 8)
:-DD
Thank you Martin, I needed a good laugh. 8)
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Hi,
did the upgrade on one of the scopes.
Made the suggested setup, move the timebase.
In "normal speed" (say 0.5..1s/click), with every "click" timebase will be changed, e.g. 50ns/100ns/200ns.
Doing this "faster" it changes one time, e.g. from 20 to 50ns inbetween 3 clicks.
For me it´s normal behaviour which it did also before the upgrade.
Yeah, it's the same behavior as before. What it proves is that the scope isn't buffering the control events, and this hasn't changed with the firmware update.
It's not the end of the world. If you really need to make a significant change to the timebase with the FFT on, you can either move the encoder slowly or you can turn the math channel off, then change the timebase, and then turn the math channel back on again. Without the FFT going, the controls are significantly more responsive (though not perfect).
You can also use the mouse or touchscreen and directly manipulate the timebase that way (click on the timebase rectangle at the bottom).
Can test the same on unlikely more expensive lecroy scopes and/or my 2K HD, but I bet it won´t be different.
There was a claim that the 2000X HD buffered the control inputs. So please do perform this same test on those scopes. I think it'll be interesting to see the results, at any rate.
OK, maybe not - I didn´t made any "highspeed" tests before, there was no need for.
Yeah, there's no need for it, save perhaps for satisfying curiosity. But if you don't mind doing it, I'd be very interested in learning the results.
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Not talking about telnet btw, but the fact that running a script during boot is now disabled.
Good morning,
the good news:
- Downgrade from V1.5.2R1 to V1.3.9R12 possible (atleast on "old" hw-revisions - I didn't test others), so try without regret. ;-)
- Beyond UART-shell a reversible root-door is still available on 1.5.2R1 (and can substitute the removed siglent_device_startup-mechanism)
/tmp # uname -a
Linux (none) 3.19.0-01-svn165603 #192 SMP PREEMPT Tue Aug 6 23:16:29 CST 2019 armv7l GNU/Linux
/tmp # cat identification.xml
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<LXIDevice xmlns="http://www.lxistandard.org/InstrumentIdentification/1.0" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xsi:schemaLocation="error">
<Manufacturer>SIGLENT TECHNOLOGIES</Manufacturer>
<Model>SDS2104X Plus</Model>
<SerialNumber>SDSxxxxxxxxxx</SerialNumber>
<FirmwareRevision>5.0.1.5.2R1</FirmwareRevision>
<ManufacturerDescription>SDSxxxxxxxxxx</ManufacturerDescription>
<HomepageURL>http://www.Siglent.com</HomepageURL>
<DriverURL>http://www.Siglent.com</DriverURL>
<UserDescription>SIGLENT TECHNOLOGIES SMU</UserDescription>
<IdentificationURL>http://192.168.1.100/lxi/identification</IdentificationURL>
<Interface xsi:type="NetworkInformation" InterfaceType="LXI" IPType="IPv4" InterfaceName="et0">
<InstrumentAddressString>TCPIP::192.168.1.100::inst0::INSTR</InstrumentAddressString>
<InstrumentAddressString>TCPIP::192.168.1.100::inst0::SOCKET</InstrumentAddressString>
<Hostname>error</Hostname>
<IPAddress>192.168.1.100</IPAddress>
<SubnetMask>255.255.255.0</SubnetMask>
<MACAddress>xx:xx:xx:xx:xx:xx</MACAddress>
<Gateway>192.168.1.254</Gateway>
<DHCPEnabled>true</DHCPEnabled>
<AutoIPEnabled>true</AutoIPEnabled>
</Interface>
<IVISoftwareModuleName>SDS2xxxxxxxxxx</IVISoftwareModuleName>
<LXIVersion>1.5 LXI Device Specification 2016</LXIVersion>
</LXIDevice>
/tmp #
++umgfoin.
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Good and bad news.
Bad for those that purchased SDS2000X Plus before Sept 1 and good news the MSO option of HW and SW license and FG license are bundled again with the purchase of a new scope for the amazing low price of $ 219 !
Snap this up quick as the promotion expires 31 Dec.
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-52.html
Check if your region, US or EU has this offer.
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Siglent could turn a bad into a good by offering the HW/SW MSO option to existing owners for the/a reduced price. Would you please forward this to Siglent HQ?
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And for HD owners ? ;D
Like my mom once said, you can wish whatever you want... 8)
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And for HD owners ? ;D
Ha ha, I sincerely hope that during the holiday season Siglent will give some promotion for the HD version >:D - such a plan to make yourself a Christmas present, and with some promotion the gift would be even better. ;D
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The early bird is always the dumbest one... ;)
Or mostly.
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The early bird is always the dumbest one... ;)
Or mostly.
He he Martin, you see this shows that the guy is just a big kid buying himself toys :-DD
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The early bird is always the dumbest one... ;)
Or mostly.
Well maybe, but what about all the fun you've had playing with the HD while all of us are wannabes ;D
Best,
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The offer link redirects me to siglenteu.com and when I choose "SDS2000X Plus Series" from products, I get a SDS2000 Plus page and there is a mention of this offer, but it says that "All offers are valid until December 31st, 2021".
So it seems this offer is not available in EU :(
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The offer link redirects me to siglenteu.com and when I choose "SDS2000X Plus Series" from products, I get a SDS2000 Plus page and there is a mention of this offer, but it says that "All offers are valid until December 31st, 2021".
So it seems this offer is not available in EU :(
UPDATE: Currently it IS valid in the European market area including (https://siglent.fi/) also Finland ;)
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The offer link redirects me to siglenteu.com and when I choose "SDS2000X Plus Series" from products, I get a SDS2000 Plus page and there is a mention of this offer, but it says that "All offers are valid until December 31st, 2021".
So it seems this offer is not available in EU :(
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e496-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e496-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/)
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And the US region has now been included too ! :)
https://siglentna.com/news-article/save-up-to-538-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/
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Great! It seems the web pages have been updated.
Earlier today when I clicked the promotion banner (the one which still has 2021 date :)) I got "page not found" error, but now it takes to the correct page.
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New firmware for SDS2000X Plus models.
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Oscilloscope/SDS2000X%20Plus_V1.5.2R1_EN-2.zip
Version V1.5.2R1
21MB
Release notes
Measurement enhancement - Added setup/hold time: tsu@R, tsu@F, th@R, th@F
Optimized UI
Added SCPI commands for Measure Cursors and clearing measure items in Simple mode
Supported LXI (only with the Uboot-OS Version 5.4)
Supported time zone setting
Fixed several bugs:
Webserver doesn’t show instrument UI if the scope reboot with a wireless mouse connected
Incorrect “Recall”icon in the File Manager
Scope freezes with AWG enabled and measure cursor on rise time
IP setting of AWG in Bode Plot not remembered after reboot
Network storage only works for SMB1.0
MEAS:SIMPle:ITEM\sOVSN,ON does not work as expected
Roll time incorrect at 1ks/div and 20kpts
Raw data not consistent in x and sinx/x interpolation modes
Math: Dx parameter of Derivation cannot be increased by universal control
Incorrect FFT sample rate
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New firmware for SDS2000X Plus models.
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Oscilloscope/SDS2000X%20Plus_V1.5.2R1_EN-2.zip
Version V1.5.2R1
21MB
Release notes
Measurement enhancement - Added setup/hold time: tsu@R, tsu@F, th@R, th@F
Optimized UI
Added SCPI commands for Measure Cursors and clearing measure items in Simple mode
Supported LXI (only with the Uboot-OS Version 5.4)
Supported time zone setting
Fixed several bugs:
Webserver doesn’t show instrument UI if the scope reboot with a wireless mouse connected
Incorrect “Recall”icon in the File Manager
Scope freezes with AWG enabled and measure cursor on rise time
IP setting of AWG in Bode Plot not remembered after reboot
Network storage only works for SMB1.0
MEAS:SIMPle:ITEM\sOVSN,ON does not work as expected
Roll time incorrect at 1ks/div and 20kpts
Raw data not consistent in x and sinx/x interpolation modes
Math: Dx parameter of Derivation cannot be increased by universal control
Incorrect FFT sample rate
This seems to be the previous update originally made available on august 24 2022. May be they re-uploaded with newer date.
[attachimg=2]
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This seems to be the previous update originally made available on august 24 2022. May be they re-uploaded with newer date.
Just checked this and file size matches however the filename is slightly different so it seems this maybe a fix for the Timezone bug that's mentioned here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4398076/#msg4398076 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4398076/#msg4398076)
Please, someone check this ?
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This seems to be the previous update originally made available on august 24 2022. May be they re-uploaded with newer date.
Just checked this and file size matches however the filename is slightly different so it seems this maybe a fix for the Timezone bug that's mentioned here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4398076/#msg4398076 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4398076/#msg4398076)
Please, someone check this ?
The firmware is identical. The only difference is in the pdf instructions. From what I could see, they updated this line:
From: Supported LXI (only with the new produced units)
To: Supported LXI (only with the Uboot-OS Version 5.4)
It partially answers my question recently:
Siglent SDS2000X Plus V1.5.2R1 Firmware Update
4. Supported LXI (only with the new produced units)
Regarding this LXI support. What sort of functionality do you get? And why only for new units?
But then, still wonder how we get Uboot-OS Version 5.4, and what LXI actually gives us?
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The firmware is identical. The only difference is in the pdf instructions.
Is the Time zone bug that Performa01 reported not fixed ?
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The firmware is identical. The only difference is in the pdf instructions.
Is the Time zone bug that Performa01 reported not fixed ?
Can't be. The ADS-files in the original zip and in the new zip are binary identical.
If it was fixed, I would expect it to have a new version, as well as an entry in the release notes.
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The firmware is identical. The only difference is in the pdf instructions.
Is the Time zone bug that Performa01 reported not fixed ?
Can't be. The ADS-files in the original zip and in the new zip are binary identical.
If it was fixed, I would expect it to have a new version, as well as an entry in the release notes.
OK so you didn't check, maybe someone else can.
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OK so you didn't check, maybe someone else can.
Would you ask Siglent about releasing Uboot-OS Version 5.4? They did an OS update on the SDS1000X-E-series, so guess they could if they wanted to.
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I did a binary compare and they are indeed identical.
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The firmware is identical. The only difference is in the pdf instructions.
Is the Time zone bug that Performa01 reported not fixed ?
Can't be. The ADS-files in the original zip and in the new zip are binary identical.
If it was fixed, I would expect it to have a new version, as well as an entry in the release notes.
OK so you didn't check, maybe someone else can.
Applied firmware, timezone entry still broken.
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Ad Hoc Curve tracer project using SDS2000X Plus in XY mode and both channels from the SDG2042X AWG.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fooln-around-with-dso-awg/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fooln-around-with-dso-awg/)
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Hi. First post from a newbie! Don't know if this is right place to post this but anyway...
Anyone had this weird behavior with single capture + zone trigger combi?
The signal with no zone settings: look dirty
[attach=1]
And normal trigger with zone settings: works fine.
[attach=2]
And single capture with zone settings: not capturing any signal. also ready light right below the trigger knob is off.
[attach=3]
Any idea why this is not working? I think there's no reason only changing the capture mode disables the singal capturing capability.
Interestingly, seems the newest firmware(V1.5.2R1) also introduced a new bug! (see the screenshot and you'll find somethings missing lol)
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Hi. First post from a newbie! Don't know if this is right place to post this but anyway...
Welcome to the forum.
The signal with no zone settings: look dirty
Yes, from unstable triggering.
Data packets right ?
With no/zero/min Holdoff the trigger is rearming and firing within the packet.
You want just simple stable triggering right ?
Hit Stop and eyeball the longest packet duration and in the Trigger menu set Holdoff to a slightly longer duration.
Set Zones to OFF and you should have stable triggering on the first edge as you already have it set to Falling. :-+
I'll send you a PM soon about the firmware.
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Thanks for the reply.
...
You want just simple stable triggering right ?
Hit Stop and eyeball the longest packet duration and in the Trigger menu set Holdoff to a slightly longer duration.
Yeah, that's kind of other way to get it work but I'm curious why it is not working with the zone settings method.
I wanted to know if it is (potentially) a bug, or I'm just using it wrong way.
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Thanks for the reply.
...
You want just simple stable triggering right ?
Hit Stop and eyeball the longest packet duration and in the Trigger menu set Holdoff to a slightly longer duration.
Yeah, that's kind of other way to get it work but I'm curious why it is not working with the zone settings method.
I wanted to know if it is (potentially) a bug, or I'm just using it wrong way.
Never tried Zones on a packet TBH as I can see unless every packet was identical stable triggering could not be maintained however if you set a zone for a particular bit and zoomed out lots for a longer record then Stopped you should be able to Search for how many of the same bit might have been triggered on.
Only time I played with Zones and needed them too to reliably trigger on a Video signal from the STB-3 test board.
Some of its signals are a darn good test of your ability to properly drive the Trigger, the most powerful tool in your scope.
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Actually, maybe a year ago? I reported this to the Siglent headquarter in China and got a reply that they couldn't reproduce it. I wrote back with a detailed instruction and screenshots with reference waveform file for reproduction but then... they just ignored. After number of FW updates it is still not working. I cannot know the answer! I reall want to know the answer! |O Am I using it wrong in a way that kinda out of zone trigger spec or etc?
If interested, would you mind testing single+zone settings with the wave ref file for the scope internal AWG?
Quite rough representation of the original signal from my MCU dev board, but it's enough for the demo.
[attach=1]
Unzip and import resulting csv file into the scope internal AWG. AWG settings were: 100kHz freq, 2Vpp amplitude, 0v offset
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Sorry can't as we have no stock.
The type of Zone really matters IIRC but as said, can't currently test, sorry.
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Totally understandable.
Anyway if anyone could try this and help me sorting this out, it would be really appreciated. Thanks guys!
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Sorry, cannot test anything right now, but still here's some hint on the Zone Trigger:
Zone Trigger is not actually a trigger, but an additional filter for the well known existing trigger modes. A filter that looks at the regular triggered records and neglects all those which don't meet the zone trigger criteria.
What does this mean for single shot capture? You only capture one single record and chances that this one meets the zone criteria are very slim indeed.
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Zone Trigger is not actually a trigger, but an additional filter for the well known existing trigger modes. A filter that looks at the regular triggered records and neglects all those which don't meet the zone trigger criteria.
What does this mean for single shot capture? You only capture one single record and chances that this one meets the zone criteria are very slim indeed.
Wow. Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense.
Still, however, single capture is expected (at leat for me) to "show" the single waveform after processing all the steps from acquiring through filtering.
I mean, is loop_until_single_successful_capture(single capture - filter) looks more natural for single mode rather than just (single capture - filter - wave "maybe" shown)?
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Interestingly, seems the newest firmware(V1.5.2R1) also introduced a new bug! (see the screenshot and you'll find somethings missing lol)
As mentioned in reply to your PM I'm fairly sure this is a new setting for screenshots to hide menus.
IIRC you can turn Hide Menus to OFF from within the Display menu.
Someone else might like to confirm.
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Can look at it tomorrow on our scopes.
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Can look at it tomorrow on our scopes.
Thanks Martin.
Currently feeling like the emperor without clothes ! :-DD
SDS6204A out on demo, no 2kX+ or 5kX in stock so zero recent scopes to check except for the trusty little SDS1104X-E however it doesn't have the same UI or all the fruits these later models have.
In a few weeks stock will be good again unless it ends up being all presold ! :scared:
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At work I´ve updated one 2K+, the others not so I can compare the menus old/new fw to see whats new/changing(without a notice)...
For example, with new fw probecheck is also avaible, but not mentioned (maybe it is in "Optimized UI")
Martin
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The Hide Menu feature simply makes the right hand menu disappear after N seconds. Setting to Off, keeps it on screen.
A screenshot from a 'remote capture' includes the Top menu on the screenshot (first 2 images)
A screenshot (print) from the Utility Menu, has no Top menu (3rd image). I presume this is because you need to lose the menu option itself that you used to do the print, and they simply make it all disappear?
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Thanks tubularnut but hiding menus in screenshots is tucked away in another menu.
Real curse without a unit here to show everyone. >:(
It impacted on both Save/Recall saves and Print saves.....but maybe it's only in the higher end models yet. :-\
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Thanks tubularnut but hiding menus in screenshots is tucked away in another menu.
Real curse without a unit here to show everyone. >:(
It impacted on both Save/Recall saves and Print saves.....but maybe it's only in the higher end models yet. :-\
You mean this one? Under Utility - Save/Recall
Mine was turned off (by default? I've never used it before)
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Depending the frequency of the AWG (and so the time to chek the zones of trig (?)), the single trigger failed by me too. At 1Khz all is fine, at 250Khz it's no more the case.
[attachmini=1]
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Depending the frequency of the AWG (and so the time to chek the zones of trig (?)), the single trigger failed by me too. At 1Khz all is fine, at 250Khz it's no more the case.
(Attachment Link)
Thanks for the confirmation. Same as me. (tested at 100kHz) Zone settings are working OK with lower frequencies.
Thanks tubularnut but hiding menus in screenshots is tucked away in another menu.
Real curse without a unit here to show everyone. >:(
It impacted on both Save/Recall saves and Print saves.....but maybe it's only in the higher end models yet. :-\
Yup... Seems my entry sds2104x+ doesn't have such option as an UI menu.
Thanks tubularnut but hiding menus in screenshots is tucked away in another menu.
Real curse without a unit here to show everyone. >:(
It impacted on both Save/Recall saves and Print saves.....but maybe it's only in the higher end models yet. :-\
You mean this one? Under Utility - Save/Recall
Mine was turned off (by default? I've never used it before)
Clearly, this menu is impacting the "print button" screenshots too. Turn it on and "print from menu" then "print button" will include the menu in the screenshot. Just "turning it on, then print button" is not enough.
Sadly the option does not survive after hitting default button.
edit//
Seems the menu inclusion in save PNG menu is a part of the global settings. Turning it on then saving "To Default Key" is making it persistent.
But... this is not good. It needs dedicated option menu.
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(Attachment Link)
Unzip and import resulting csv file into the scope internal AWG. AWG settings were: 100kHz freq, 2Vpp amplitude, 0v offset
I'm glad to meet a Korean.
I tried generate the attached file waveform.
I think it's because the waveform update rate is fast.
If you slow time the holdoff or use a slow waveform update rate scope, it will appear as a single waveform.
You look at a fast scope like a keysight, it's normal to look like an eye patterns.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1btd4aXcO6Wxs7neXFRpmnoKH9guG6mQX/view?usp=sharing
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(Attachment Link)
Unzip and import resulting csv file into the scope internal AWG. AWG settings were: 100kHz freq, 2Vpp amplitude, 0v offset
I'm glad to meet a Korean.
I tried generate the attached file waveform.
I think it's because the waveform update rate is fast.
If you slow time the holdoff or use a slow waveform update rate scope, it will appear as a single waveform.
You look at a fast scope like a keysight, it's normal to look like an eye patterns.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1btd4aXcO6Wxs7neXFRpmnoKH9guG6mQX/view?usp=sharing
Hi! Never expected to see a Korean here in this foreign nerdy(?) forum.
Just saw the video. Have you tried with zone settings on?
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Zone Trigger Issue.
The problem that I have encountered with my SDS2104X Plus is that the Zone Triggering fails to work at certain frequencies but does trigger correctly on other frequency ranges..
For the purpose of testing the Zone Trigger operation, I have used a signal which consists of a Low amplitude pulse followed by a High amplitude pulse.
The objective is to have the oscilloscope only trigger on the Low amplitude pulse and not on both pulses.
The SDS2104X Plus is configured as follows:-
Time / Div 100us
Rising Edge Trigger
Zone trigger 1 is set as "Not Intersect" and placed above the Edge Trigger level in the area where the Higher amplitude pulse would be.
The frequency of the test signal is taken from the SDS On Screen frequency display
While testing the Zone Trigger operation, I found that the Zone trigger fails to trigger on certain frequency ranges.
An example of the test results is listed below:-
Triggering works correctly :- 4456Hz to 4704Hz.
Triggering Fails :- 4706Hz to 4950Hz
Triggering works correctly :- 4952Hz to 5200Hz
This pattern keeps repeating
Attached are two screen prints.
One shows when the Zone Trigger is working. The other shows when the Zone Trigger has Failed.
I have found that the frequency ranges where the Zone Trigger Fails depends on the Time / Div and Memory settings.
Not having used Zone Triggering before, I am wondering if this the normal operation for Zone Triggering on other brands of DSO's.
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in this case there is two issues. One concerning the fact that we may have no triggering at all and the other which is to have the right behavior in normal mode and none in the single mode.
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Yeap. I could have easily reproduced the zone trigger issue with simillar waveform from seronday's case. The zone trigger feature seems quite broken overall.
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At work I´ve updated one 2K+, the others not so I can compare the menus old/new fw to see whats new/changing(without a notice)...
Here a variety, left pics are the new (last) firmware.
Made more pics, but this could be fake ones - because I saw them once after the firmware upgrade and then never again.
(when you going into the (sub) menus for the fist time after upgrade).
Here the "true changes":
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Here the "true changes":
Yes all described as: Optimized UI
A major version change to a V5 FW to keep up with the improvements in the UI in 6kA, 2kX HD and 5kX.
If a business was to have a range of these models an engineer can now sit in front of any instrument and they all drive the same way.
Only the SDS2000X Plus is missing the new Mem management feature added to the other models.
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Yes all described as: Optimized UI
Yep, as mentioned before.
Only the SDS2000X HD is missing the new Mem management feature added to the other models.
Hm? You mean the plus...
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Only the SDS2000X Plus is missing the new Mem management feature added to the other models.
Any news, if the Mem management feature will ever be added to SDS2000X+ Series ?
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Only the SDS2000X Plus is missing the new Mem management feature added to the other models.
Any news, if the Mem management feature will ever be added to SDS2000X+ Series ?
Been asked this before and at this price point I don't think so but I have been wrong before.
Still, if there was a need to promote sales and X Plus HW supports it, well anything is possible.
Then, should the Toy Wonder take it into his head to investigate the higher model's code, extract the necessary bits (excuse pun) and splice then into SDS2000X Plus SW and then share it with us, wow would you then have a very capable cheap scope.
However X Plus is already a very capable scope if you know how to use the Zoom mode like one does with a LeCroy.
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I wish he does :)
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Does someone know how to remove the security sticker nicely?
This is the fft noise of the 50 ohm input.
I'm trying to find the dc output part of the PSU and run it from a 12~15v battery.
Will using the battery reduce spur noise?
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Does someone know how to remove the security sticker nicely?
This is the fft noise of the 50 ohm input.
I'm trying to find the dc output part of the PSU and run it from a 12~15v battery.
Will using the battery reduce spur noise?
Did you look at the numbers? Do you understand what they mean?
Tampering with power in a way you describe is potentially dangerous if you really don't know what are you doing and doubtful if it can be done at all. If you plan to do that to a scope than you should cut label deliberately and accept risk that if you destroy main board you have to pay for it...
It is a completely different thing to opening a scope to change a cooling fan, or to look around to learn something...
Just saying...
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Does someone know how to remove the security sticker nicely?
This is the fft noise of the 50 ohm input.
I'm trying to find the dc output part of the PSU and run it from a 12~15v battery.
Will using the battery reduce spur noise?
Did you look at the numbers? Do you understand what they mean?
Tampering with power in a way you describe is potentially dangerous if you really don't know what are you doing and doubtful if it can be done at all. If you plan to do that to a scope than you should cut label deliberately and accept risk that if you destroy main board you have to pay for it...
It is a completely different thing to opening a scope to change a cooling fan, or to look around to learn something...
Just saying...
Thanks for the nice infomation.
I'm curious about the little noise.
For Keysight or Tektronix tds series, the scope turns on when the battery is connected to the psu output terminal. And reduced spur noise in certain hz.
I thought Siglent would be similar. I'll do some more study.
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Hi, I hope this is the right place asking question . I have a new SDS2104x Plus scope and when I'm setting lower than 1V/div vertical res. I can't go above -20V . I'm getting a message "vertical position at limit" . No idea what is that .
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Hi, I hope this is the right place asking question . I have a new SDS2104x Plus scope and when I'm setting lower than 1V/div vertical res. I can't go above -20V . I'm getting a message "vertical position at limit" . No idea what is that .
That is normal. Vertical offsets are not infinite.
Download datasheet and study it in detail. In section called Vertical system there is specification for Offset range (probe 1X) there is detailed explanation what vertical offset range is in which input range.
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Hello, I just downloaded the new FW for 2000X Plus (1.5.2R1.ads), but even though I tried a a few times, I keep getting the following message:
The upgrade package does not match this product!
Did anyone have any issues with the upgrade procedure?
Thank you!
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Hi,
No problems at work - but the scopes there are "very new" ones.
Which firmware do you actually got on yours ?
How old is your SDS2104X+ ?
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Hello Martin72,
I have purchased this unit maybe three or four months ago. Current version is 1.3.9R12. Any suggestions?
Thank you!
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Hello Martin72,
I have purchased this unit maybe three or four months ago. Current version is 1.3.9R12. Any suggestions?
Thank you!
Here's the link to the latest Siglent HQ firmware:
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Oscilloscope/SDS2000X%20Plus_V1.5.2R1_EN-2.zip
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That is exactly the file I downloaded and attempted to reflash, to no avail.
Even worse, I downloaded the exact version that is currently running (1.3.9R12), and it throws the same message at me... I'd rather expect it to acknowledge it as valid, and give me a warning about it being the same as the installed version.
Thank you!
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That is exactly the file I downloaded and attempted to reflash, to no avail.
Even worse, I downloaded the exact version that is currently running (1.3.9R12), and it throws the same message at me... I'd rather expect it to acknowledge it as valid, and give me a warning about it being the same as the installed version.
Please describe in detail exact update process you used, USB or network ?
Or webserver ?
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Hello Martin72,
I have purchased this unit maybe three or four months ago. Current version is 1.3.9R12. Any suggestions?
Thank you!
So it´s newer than ours at work - And I didn´t had any problems to upgrade to the newest version.
Your scope seem to "think" the firmware is not compatible, very interesting thing.
Suggestion:
Format your usb stick with fat32.
Follow tautechs link and unzip the file.
Copy only the ads. file to stick.
Try upgrade then.
If this fails, contact siglent support or tautech directly...
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Hello Tautech,
I tried both, a standard USB drive fresh formatted, with the .ads file on root, as well as the remote upgrade via web interface.
For the local upgrade, I followed the procedure (plug in USB, select upgrade, browse file system, select the file, save, choose upgrade. The system starts reading the file and by the time it reaches 100% it throws the error message.
Same thing with the webpage update, everything goes well, it scans the selected file, and by the end of the file verification procedure, it throws the message stating the package does not match the product.
Regards, and thank you!
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Hello Tautech,
I tried both, a standard USB drive fresh formatted, with the .ads file on root, as well as the remote upgrade via web interface.
For the local upgrade, I followed the procedure (plug in USB, select upgrade, browse file system, select the file, save, choose upgrade. The system starts reading the file and by the time it reaches 100% it throws the error message.
Same thing with the webpage update, everything goes well, it scans the selected file, and by the end of the file verification procedure, it throws the message stating the package does not match the product.
Regards, and thank you!
Please what qualifies as a standard USB drive ?
8GB is best but should work with 16GB too but must be FAT32 and 4k clusters.
Try with these settings then if no success send your email via a PM and we have some other tricks to get you fixed up.
PS, we install many dozen updates each year without problems when all your USB sticks and processes are correct.
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Hello Tautech,
Thank you again for your help. I have just sent you my email via PM.
Just in case someone else gets stuck with the same issue in the future, I can confirm that I tried both, 32GB USB flash drive and 4 GB flash drive FAT 32 formatted, to no avail. Unit keeps sending message as if I chose a wrong firmware file that does not belong with SDS2000X Plus series. I triple checked the downloaded file, and just in case I also downloaded it from different sources.
It did not work via webpage firmware update either, even after several warm and cold boot cycles.
Regards, and thanks a lot!
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I just received a new SDS2104X plus scope from Amazon, while testing it I found that Ch4 (all other channels off) detects all my x10 probes as 9.79:1 instead of 10:1, I updated the firmware (4Gb usb pen drive did the trick), to the latest on the web page, and tried self calibration a couple of times, it does still the same when checking the 10:1 probes only on CH4. Should I send it back?
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I just received a new SDS2104X plus scope from Amazon, while testing it I found that Ch4 (all other channels off) detects all my x10 probes as 9.79:1 instead of 10:1, I updated the firmware (4Gb usb pen drive did the trick), to the latest on the web page, and tried self calibration a couple of times, it does still the same when checking the 10:1 probes only on CH4. Should I send it back?
Welcome to the forum
No keep it.
Yes a little annoying this new Probe Check feature does this however it may improve accuracy I haven't checked.
Select 10x in the Probe menu and just use it is what I do.
Alternatively use 10x sensing probes for it to detect and autoset the input attenuation.
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I will keep it then, on the screen I don't see a difference in the calibration waveform amplitude. there is also a mV offset on all the channels when using the measurement function, something like 33 mV-50 mv a 1V/div, not very apparent on the waveforms (could it be internal noise on the Vertical amplifiers?), it did not disappear when I did auto-calibration, could it be that the 3.000V calibration signal is off? I don't see this behavior on my (old dual channels) Tektronix scopes. I will try using the Tektronix probe on Channel 4 . Thanks a lot!
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FWIW, I was finally able to upgrade my scope, after struggling with strange messages stating that the upgrade file was not applicable to the instrument.
Just in case anyone gets stuck with this issue in the future, it has to do with a huge (around 190MB) .bin file stored on local folder storage. I deleted it and upgrade procedure went smoothly.
I want to thank Rob (Tautech) for his help and responsiveness on the subject, he got involved and help me out reaching Siglent's tech support and providing a solution to the problem.
Thank you again, Rob!
Regards
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it has to do with a huge (around 190MB) .bin file stored on local folder storage. I deleted it and upgrade procedure went smoothly.
Hearing this for the very first time, you never stop learning..
Thanks for sharing the solution. :-+
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it has to do with a huge (around 190MB) .bin file stored on local folder storage. I deleted it and upgrade procedure went smoothly.
Hearing this for the very first time, you never stop learning..
Thanks for sharing the solution. :-+
Yes, not experienced this before and it must be something to do with the unofficial upgrade method used. :-//
Tech support pointed us in the right direction after we'd worked through a # of other things and we got to it with a process of elimination. :phew:
Tricky and takes some days when you are in different time zones.
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Thank you Rigol ! ;D
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Thank you Rigol ! ;D
It's much bigger than that, as 6 product lines and all their models are on promotion. :o
Never have I seen such great offerings of this type.
Your HD gets a free upgrade to 200 MHz and all the optional Decodes thrown in.
Others have significant price reductions until years end.
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HD next in line for price cut? :popcorn:
HD only sees upgrades to the next model and option bundle added.
Order the SDS2354X HD and SPL2016, MSO licensing, FG licensing are added for free and optional decodes are included too.
I guess we'll see a big announcement from Siglent next week.
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Your HD gets a free upgrade to 200 MHz and all the optional Decodes thrown in.
:wtf:
But I can live with it.... 8)
Much more interesting would be a superb offer for the LA cables, without buying a new scope...
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Much more interesting would be a superb offer for the LA cables, without buying a new scope...
This is when you need buddy up to your local dealer after buying some amount of gear from them to see if the have any MSO promotions unsold after the promotions expire. Sure you might have all the options unofficially installed so the MSO and FG/AWG license won't mean much to you but if you can get a SPL2016 for the $220 promo price it's still a hell of a deal.
Otherwise you can DIY one and the way Defpom did his was probably the best option, that is using some old HPAK LA probe and adding the PCIe plug to it to fit any of the higher end Siglents, from SDS2kX Plus on up.
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Double promotion on SDS2000X Plus for the rest of 2022:
Reduced price plus advanced decode options bundled for free:
SDS2000XP-FlexRay
SDS2000XP-1553B
SDS2000XP-CANFD
SDS2000XP-I2S
SDS2000XP-SENT
SDS2000XP-Manch
This ^ can be added to the already running MSO promotion for $ 219 for SPL2016 LA/MSO probes, licensing and FG/AWG licensing.
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-63.html (https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-63.html)
https://siglentna.com/news-article/sds2000x-plus-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes-promotions/ (https://siglentna.com/news-article/sds2000x-plus-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes-promotions/)
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/sds2000x-plus-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes-promotions/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/sds2000x-plus-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes-promotions/)
SDS2104X Plus $999
SDS2204X Plus $1,699
SDS2354X Plus $2,199
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The one I just received did not come with the advanced decodes installed, but I did it myself in a few minutes anyway. To be absolutely fair I asked that they ship immediately which they did and they upgraded my shipping to "next day delivery" for free. :-+
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Someone's trying to reduce inventory, eh? I wonder why :popcorn:
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Not for something new.. ;)
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Someone's trying to reduce inventory, eh? I wonder why :popcorn:
Not for something new.. ;)
And many other models.
thinkfat, this is the full list of models/series under this latest promotion:
SDS1202X-E
SHS800X models
SDS2000X Plus models and can add running MSO promotion.
SDS2000X HD models
SDS5000X models
SSA3000X Plus models
Other promotions already running are
EMI bundle with any of the analyzers
Free Preamp option with the new SSA5000A analyzer
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I'm waiting for the 2K+ to show up on Amazon with the promotional price. No way.. It's still 1430 eur.
Recommendations about EU dealers who offer good assistance & tech support? I'm hearing good things about Batronix. Can you confirm?
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I´ve ordered all my last scopes by batronix - When it´s on stock, shipping is fast as light... ;)
Good communication behaviour, I can recommend them.
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I'm waiting for the 2K+ to show up on Amazon with the promotional price. No way.. It's still 1430 eur.
Recommendations about EU dealers who offer good assistance & tech support? I'm hearing good things about Batronix. Can you confirm?
Amazon has no support whatsoever. Except for people who want to buy something and return it after 2 weeks they offer no benefits.
I bought from Welectron, Batronix, Batterfly and they all did good job and they offer few percent discounts sometimes if you ask.
Batterfly has Black Friday sale at the moment...
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[...] Recommendations about EU dealers who offer good assistance & tech support? I'm hearing good things about Batronix. Can you confirm?
I can confirm. Bought Siglent stuff from Batronix and Welectron, and other stuff from eleshop (NL with DE-Website). All fine.
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Amazon has no support whatsoever. Except for people who want to buy something and return it after 2 weeks they offer no benefits.
I bought from Welectron, Batronix, Batterfly and they all did good job and they offer few percent discounts sometimes if you ask.
Batterfly has Black Friday sale at the moment...
Yes, but Amazon has a big plus: indeed, you can return the product without any hassle if it get a bad specimen or the instrument has some quirk you weren't aware of. They also often have "accidental damage" insurance for a fistful of euros. Can be useful.
Didn't know that Batterfly has BF sales (thanks) but the price for the 2K+ looks the same as elsewhere (the official promotion price).
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Batronix got 30 days return, Welectron even 45 days:
https://www.welectron.com/Home (https://www.welectron.com/Home)
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Ok, thanks to all of you. So, the reliable EU outfits seem to be Batronix, Batter Fly, Eleshop, Welectron.
Noted.
The next thing to establish would be if I should buy it with the promotional bundle for 199 bucks. AFAIK, all the software perks (350 MHz, AWG, etc..) can be unlocked, but that bundle will give you the logic probe for a fair price.
I don't do digital right now, but I'll have to.
On the other hand, the scope alone is going to put some strain upon my wallet. The bundle will put some more upon it.
Tough decision.
Please advise: the logic probe now for 199, or a cheapo logic analyzer in future, triggering each other with the scope?
Rephrasing: how useful really is true MSO integration if you do digital?
Last but not least: are we sure that one can hack everything out of the scope? Particularly, I really need the AWG (and FRA).
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Batronix got 30 days return, Welectron even 45 days:
https://www.welectron.com/Home (https://www.welectron.com/Home)
I was assuming the contrary (but then, some say that assumption is the mother of all fuckups).
One thing still sets Amazon apart >:D :They come to your house to get the parcel at no additional cost 8)
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I returned a faulty unit to Siglent in Germany from the UK for repair.
They paid for a courier to pick it up. and return.
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Amazon has no support whatsoever. Except for people who want to buy something and return it after 2 weeks they offer no benefits.
I bought from Welectron, Batronix, Batterfly and they all did good job and they offer few percent discounts sometimes if you ask.
Batterfly has Black Friday sale at the moment...
Yes, but Amazon has a big plus: indeed, you can return the product without any hassle if it get a bad specimen or the instrument has some quirk you weren't aware of. They also often have "accidental damage" insurance for a fistful of euros. Can be useful.
Didn't know that Batterfly has BF sales (thanks) but the price for the 2K+ looks the same as elsewhere (the official promotion price).
They claim 8% on top of anything in a cart. That brings SDS2104X+ into your budget.. Check it out with them, send a mail...
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The next thing to establish would be if I should buy it with the promotional bundle for 199 bucks. AFAIK, all the software perks (350 MHz, AWG, etc..) can be unlocked, but that bundle will give you the logic probe for a fair price.
The MSO bundle would almost be worth it just for the included test clips. Also, I haven't used it more than a few times, but IIRC the specs on the logic inputs are pretty good by comparison to a lot of others.
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Digital-Probe-Datasheet-V20E201912.pdf
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I returned a faulty unit to Siglent in Germany from the UK for repair.
They paid for a courier to pick it up. and return.
That's quite something. May I ask which dealer?
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Amazon has no support whatsoever. Except for people who want to buy something and return it after 2 weeks they offer no benefits.
I bought from Welectron, Batronix, Batterfly and they all did good job and they offer few percent discounts sometimes if you ask.
Batterfly has Black Friday sale at the moment...
Yes, but Amazon has a big plus: indeed, you can return the product without any hassle if it get a bad specimen or the instrument has some quirk you weren't aware of. They also often have "accidental damage" insurance for a fistful of euros. Can be useful.
Didn't know that Batterfly has BF sales (thanks) but the price for the 2K+ looks the same as elsewhere (the official promotion price).
They claim 8% on top of anything in a cart. That brings SDS2104X+ into your budget.. Check it out with them, send a mail...
8% would be well over 100 bucks. Thanks for the heads up!
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Thanks for pointing out Batterfly. I somehow can not get the Siglent SDS2104X Plus in the shopping cart, I also can not find the Logic Probe promotion. |O
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Particularly, I really need the AWG (and FRA).
FRA is standard equipment and for use with it the FG license is NOT required, only for FG/AWG usage not associated with Bode plot/FRA.
The MSO promotion also includes the FG/AWG license.
For a limited time, all new SDS2000X Plus purchases can get an option bundle for only €199. This bundle includes the SPL2016 and MSO and function generator activation licenses.
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/sds2000x-plus-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes-promotions/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/sds2000x-plus-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes-promotions/)
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Mh, I just ordered the scope alone, due to low stock and the 8% promotion. The logic probe promotion cannot, indeed, be placed in the cart. I left a note and asked them to add it themselves and send me a link to pay the difference.
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Particularly, I really need the AWG (and FRA).
FRA is standard equipment and for use with it the FG license is NOT required, only for FG/AWG usage not associated with Bode plot/FRA.
The MSO promotion also includes the FG/AWG license.
For a limited time, all new SDS2000X Plus purchases can get an option bundle for only €199. This bundle includes the SPL2016 and MSO and function generator activation licenses.
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/sds2000x-plus-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes-promotions/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/sds2000x-plus-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes-promotions/)
Good to know. I thought you couldn't enjoy the integrated FRA without activating the AWG.
Still, I'd like to buy the logic probe for 199. Let's see what they say tomorrow. My impression is that they *do/did not* have enough logic probe kits in stock.
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If you shouldn´t like the logic probes, call me, I´ll pay you 199€ for them... 8)
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If you shouldn´t like the logic probes, call me, I´ll pay you 199€ for them... 8)
Let's see if they have them in the 1st place ^-^ I'm a bit pessimistic about that... ::)
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I'm waiting for the 2K+ to show up on Amazon with the promotional price. No way.. It's still 1430 eur.
Recommendations about EU dealers who offer good assistance & tech support? I'm hearing good things about Batronix. Can you confirm?
FYI: Amazon in Italy just dropped the price to 1099 euro.
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I'm waiting for the 2K+ to show up on Amazon with the promotional price. No way.. It's still 1430 eur.
Recommendations about EU dealers who offer good assistance & tech support? I'm hearing good things about Batronix. Can you confirm?
FYI: Amazon in Italy just dropped the price to 1099 euro.
Is the 140 above Siglent EU €959 price local taxes ? :-//
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/sds2000x-plus-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes-promotions/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/sds2000x-plus-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes-promotions/)
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I'm waiting for the 2K+ to show up on Amazon with the promotional price. No way.. It's still 1430 eur.
Recommendations about EU dealers who offer good assistance & tech support? I'm hearing good things about Batronix. Can you confirm?
FYI: Amazon in Italy just dropped the price to 1099 euro.
Is the 140 above Siglent EU €959 price local taxes ? :-//
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/sds2000x-plus-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes-promotions/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/sds2000x-plus-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes-promotions/)
I don't know, I'm in the US and I accessed Amazon.it from one of my servers in the EU.
In the US Amazon dropped the price today to $999.
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The italian amazon scope is the 2 channels and the price includes the 22% of italian vat.
The photo is wrong, it happens a lot in the european versions of amazon.
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The italian amazon scope is the 2 channels and the price includes the 22% of italian vat.
The photo is wrong, it happens a lot in the european versions of amazon.
Yes, you're correct, thank you. :palm:
Batronix has the SDS2104X+ for 959 euro before VAT.
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Amazon germany....
Without any promo...
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@Martin72, Batronix has the promotion, 959 euro + VAT.
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If you shouldn´t like the logic probes, call me, I´ll pay you 199€ for them... 8)
Let's see if they have them in the 1st place ^-^ I'm a bit pessimistic about that... ::)
Ok, they have a problem about the cart. But they have the probes in stock. You just write down an email to them, they'll add the probe/awg. In my case, they sent me a paypal payment link as requested.
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The italian amazon scope is the 2 channels and the price includes the 22% of italian vat.
The photo is wrong, it happens a lot in the european versions of amazon.
Yes, you're correct, thank you. :palm:
Batronix has the SDS2104X+ for 959 euro before VAT.
Don't forget the (959+VAT-8%) with Batterfly.
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A shame that Batterfly won't ship to USA.
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Is the difference so huge against buying it from "home" ?
Nevertheless I must talk to our purchasing manager if it´s possible to order another 3pcs this year instead next year as planned.
Then we would have 6 sds2104X+ ....
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Amazon Canada don't even have it for sale. Other vendors selling through Amazon Canada do not seem to have dropped their price. However my local Siglent dealer (RCC Electronics) did drop his price on Nov. 1st .. and I picked one up. They even shipped it to me overnight for free.
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Now something complete different:
We all know the bode plot option, as it allows a maximum frequency of 120Mhz (external awg).
What must I see under the description of a rebadged lecroy ?
https://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/t3dso2000-series-oscilloscopes
Bode plot as standard from 10 Hz to 50 MHz available using the 50 MHz function/arbitrary waveform generator, or 10 Hz to 500 MHz using the optional T3AFG500 arbitrary function generator.
Aha ???
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A shame that Batterfly won't ship to USA.
What's wrong with your US Siglent supplier Saelig ? :-//
https://www.saelig.com/category/siglent-sds2000x-plus.htm (https://www.saelig.com/category/siglent-sds2000x-plus.htm)
You might even be able to also apply their 6% EEVblog members discount:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/equipment-discounts-from-saelig/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/equipment-discounts-from-saelig/)
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We've used Saelig for all our Siglent equipment and for some others as well. Very good resource IMO.
Best,
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If you buy from a vendor besides Siglent direct, can you still purchase the discounted option bundle from Siglent?
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Sure because you can´t order from siglent directly.
There are some vendors which offers only siglent stuff, but the most did not and they got the promo things also.
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Sure because you can´t order from siglent directly.
At least in the USA you can: https://siglentna.com
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Sure because you can´t order from siglent directly.
At least in the USA you can: https://siglentna.com (https://siglentna.com)
Yes the only Siglent branch that offers a 'direct to you' shop.
But there are many many authorized dealers in each sales region:
https://int.siglent.com/map/ (https://int.siglent.com/map/)
https://siglentna.com/how-to-buy/ (https://siglentna.com/how-to-buy/)
https://www.siglenteu.com/how-to-buy/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/how-to-buy/)
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Question: Can you buy from Amazon (U.S.) and get the reduced price option bundle: “MSO with probe options and arbitrary generator for only $219. “ ?
Answer: No. Direct from Siglent customer support:
“Currently Amazon isn’t running the promotion. The promo is available either from our website
https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/
and pressing the Buy now button”
or from one of our authorized partners
https://siglentna.com/how-to-buy/
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This makes sense, amazon isn´t an authorized distributor just a marketplace.
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I don't know, I'm in the US and I accessed Amazon.it from one of my servers in the EU.
In the US Amazon dropped the price today to $999.
If you purchase from Amazon US you can’t take advantage of the discounted ($219) LA/FG bundle. Per Siglent customer service.
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I don't know, I'm in the US and I accessed Amazon.it from one of my servers in the EU.
In the US Amazon dropped the price today to $999.
If you purchase from Amazon US you can’t take advantage of the discounted ($219) LA/FG bundle. Per Siglent customer service.
Yes, because there are 2 licenses as part of the promotional package.
The license pdf has to be redeemed at the Siglent licensing site for the actual license to be generated ....all much to hard for Amazon and another darn good reason to buy from an authorized dealer.
If in the US use Saelig and hunt here on the forum for their discount thread.....you might even get the additional 6% they offer EEVblog members.
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It comes with a screen protector, after all. ::) BUT without caps for the BNCs! :-[ (The SDS5000s do have them!)
Now the challenge: removing the warranty seal without breaking it >:D, so that I can install the Noctua. Then, finding the right-sized screws so that I can assemble the VESA contraption as per Martin's recipe!
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It comes with a screen protector, after all. ::) BUT without caps for the BNCs! :-[ (The SDS5000s do have them!)
Now the challenge: removing the warranty seal without breaking it >:D, so that I can install the Noctua. Then, finding the right-sized screws so that I can assemble the VESA contraption as per Martin's recipe!
I remove the Siglent warranty seal all the time >:D Little bit of heat from a hot air gun will loosen up the glue and let you peel the seal off with tweezers, without damaging it.
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The SDS5000s do have them!
The HD too... ;)
Now the challenge: removing the warranty seal without breaking it >:D
Heatgun and razorblade.. ;)
, so that I can install the Noctua.
Would do only when the noise is really disturbing you.
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I just received my SDS2104X Plus from Saelig today! :D
Quick question, did anyone else have air bubbles trapped under the screen protector on their units? There are quite a few air bubbles on mine, not exactly sure how to get rid of them...
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The "screen protector" is for shipping only. Remove it and toss it out.
Enjoy your scope!
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Question: Can you buy from Amazon (U.S.) and get the reduced price option bundle: “MSO with probe options and arbitrary generator for only $219. “ ?
Answer: No. Direct from Siglent customer support:
I would never buy ANYTHING I care about through Amazon.
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I would never buy ANYTHING I care about through Amazon.
Oh, don't be silly.
I care about everything I get through Amazon. I'm just more particular about who the vendor is as the price goes up.
Some of my local suppliers I support all the time sell through Amazon.
What, precisely, do you have against the platform? Does the fact you can return anything for the slightest reason piss you off?
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The "screen protector" is for shipping only. Remove it and toss it out.
Enjoy your scope!
Oh woops ;D
Thank you for the tip, the screen looks great now!
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The "screen protector" is for shipping only. Remove it and toss it out.
Enjoy your scope!
Oh woops ;D
Thank you for the tip, the screen looks great now!
Yep, now only Siglent touch screen devices come with a display overlay whereas once everything did.
Up to you but you drive the scope mostly with a mouse and the front panel controls but everyone seems to have their own style it seems.
I visited Defpom this week and left him some gear to review and he had a quick play with our SDS6204A and as its UI is very similar to his SDS2104X Plus he was quite at home with it but had developed his own style and drove it in ways I don't. :o
Enjoy your new scope.
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It comes with a screen protector, after all. ::) BUT without caps for the BNCs! :-[ (The SDS5000s do have them!)
Now the challenge: removing the warranty seal without breaking it >:D, so that I can install the Noctua. Then, finding the right-sized screws so that I can assemble the VESA contraption as per Martin's recipe!
I remove the Siglent warranty seal all the time >:D Little bit of heat from a hot air gun will loosen up the glue and let you peel the seal off with tweezers, without damaging it.
One needs to be careful with the air gun, and I don't have much experience. Heat doesn't bode well for plastic...
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Would do only when the noise is really disturbing you.
Well, contrarily to the 1104x-e, this fan doesn't exhibit a particularly annoying aerodynamic noise (being 92 vs 60mm). The noise, strangely enough, comes from its motor. It's kind of a buzzzzzz...
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Heat doesn't bode well for plastic...
Must be a regulated heatgun, of course..
Maximum 80° and then heating the seal, carefully lift it up at the same time with a blade or similar very thin material.
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The "screen protector" is for shipping only. Remove it and toss it out.
Enjoy your scope!
Adding to that sage advice that this is best done s l o w l y to minimise the risk of ESD in very low humidity environments.
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Some of my local suppliers I support all the time sell through Amazon.
Why not buy from your local supplier directly? How can you claim to support them when you let Amazon take a cut of their income?
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Do you mean the fan on the 1104x-e is louder?
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Why not buy from your local supplier directly? How can you claim to support them when you let Amazon take a cut of their income?
I do buy direct from them. Who said I didn't? Or are you just making contrary assumptions to be argumentative?
My point is, reputable people sell through Amazon - and will support their products. You can check who the seller is before you buy and make your decision to buy or not.
In any case, Amazon Canada do stock and sell some Siglent products. The SDS1104X-E is an example and Siglent NA supplies them to Amazon and will support them.
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Do you mean the fan on the 1104x-e is louder?
I have both. I'll test them today.
Edit: They are both about the same. Measured (C weighting, fast response) one meter in front of each scope the SDS2104X+ is 38dB, the SDS1104X-E is 40dB.
So, by a just noticeable margin, the 1104 is louder.
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Do you mean the fan on the 1104x-e is louder?
Yes. Louder, and higher-pitched too.
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So, by a just noticeable margin, the 1104 is louder.
Don't forget the pitch, it makes a lot of difference along with those 2 dBs.
I'll put a noctua into my 2K+, but I could even live with its stock fan. With 1104x-e's fan, I definitely couldn't have..
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Hi,
Question to the new owners about the optionbundles/licenses.
When you bought the scope with the bundle, are the licenses already installed or must you install them manually?
Are they ready to use keys or must you generate them first?
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Hi,
Question to the new owners about the optionbundles/licenses.
When you bought the scope with the bundle, are the licenses already installed or must you install them manually?
Are they ready to use keys or must you generate them first?
You have to install it by yourself. Batterfly sent me the certificates by e-mail too. Until now, I have not installed anything yet (nor I tried to hack the scope or even read through the hacking thread) because I have zero spare time this week...
It's worth noting that all the options do have a 30-day trial enabled by default.
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Are they ready to use keys or must you generate them first?
I asked mine to be rush shipped so it did not come with certificates or with them installed. I just used the key generator seeing as I was entitled.
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Are they ready to use keys or must you generate them first?
I asked mine to be rush shipped so it did not come with certificates or with them installed. I just used the key generator seeing as I was entitled.
So if you weren't entitled, you wouldn't have used it, right? >:D ^-^
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Are they ready to use keys or must you generate them first?
I asked mine to be rush shipped so it did not come with certificates or with them installed. I just used the key generator seeing as I was entitled.
So if you weren't entitled, you wouldn't have used it, right? >:D ^-^
;D
You have mail.
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So if you weren't entitled, you wouldn't have used it, right? >:D ^-^
You have mail.
I even have e-mail!
I should go ahead and request them just to have them.
The thing is, when I did it myself, I just kept going until the key gen went "click!"
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I just received my SDS2104X Plus from Saelig today! :D
Quick question, did anyone else have air bubbles trapped under the screen protector on their units? There are quite a few air bubbles on mine, not exactly sure how to get rid of them...
You can get a tempered glass screen protector here:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1000008551527.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.312f1802LRoG9y (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1000008551527.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.312f1802LRoG9y)
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I just received my SDS2104X Plus from Saelig today! :D
Quick question, did anyone else have air bubbles trapped under the screen protector on their units? There are quite a few air bubbles on mine, not exactly sure how to get rid of them...
You can get a tempered glass screen protector here:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1000008551527.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.312f1802LRoG9y (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1000008551527.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.312f1802LRoG9y)
Man, he was joking...
But if we want to be serious, you are not supposed to put any aftermarket screen film on those matte displays. Their coating is already kind of a sceen protector, and putting another on it will just increase reflections and cut brightness/contrast..
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FYI...
Siglent NA is not showing the protocol upgrades as part of the promotion anymore. The price is still $999 for the 2104XP
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The "screen protector" is for shipping only. Remove it and toss it out.
Enjoy your scope!
Oh woops ;D
Thank you for the tip, the screen looks great now!
Yep, now only Siglent touch screen devices come with a display overlay whereas once everything did.
Hmmm.... I was wondering why my new Siglent SDM3055 didn't come with a screen protector on it. :-//
I guess that answers that question.
Then again the Rigol DP932A I just bought (w/ touch screen) didn't come with a screen protector either. :-\
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Then you got used ones... >:D
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Then you got used ones... >:D
Well if that's true, then TEquipment is doing an outstanding job of repackaging used equipment to look like it came straight out of the factory!
And yes... I am being facetious. ;)
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Then you got used ones... >:D
Well if that's true, then TEquipment is doing an outstanding job of repackaging used equipment to look like it came straight out of the factory!
And yes... I am being facetious. ;)
Saelig included a note when I ordered an oscilloscope from them that said they opened the packaging for the device to inspect that it's A-OK. I don't know if they do this for all equipment. Probably only certain price tiers or products that get more than usual returns. I can't remember if the inspection was evident. Even if it was, I probably didn't notice - I just remember the note.
I can't remember if TEquipment does something similar; it's been a while since I ordered from them.
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So if you weren't entitled, you wouldn't have used it, right? >:D ^-^
You have mail.
I even have e-mail!
balnazzar has asked several questions about the X Plus so we have been sharing mail.
Today was about max frequency for X Plus and confusion about the BW limiters....yes there are multiple !
Max frequency in the west is 350 MHz from SDS2354X Plus but the 500 MHz BW upgrade can be applied however top model in China is the 500 MHz SDS2504X Plus of which when 3 channels are active an automatic 350 MHz BW filter is activated.
So for the 500 MHz model, the 4 BW filters consist of none (Full), 350 MHz (when 3 channels are active), 200 or 20 MHz.
Full and 350 MHz are automatically switched between and 200 and 20 MHz user selected with Full being default.
Makes perfect sense when you can see the big picture.
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Thanks Rob - thought you were referring to something else.
BTW, how long did the advanced decode licenses last as a part of the recent (current?) promotion, and why were they withdrawn? Did Siglent share their reasoning with you guys?
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Thanks Rob - thought you were referring to something else.
BTW, how long did the advanced decode licenses last as a part of the recent (current?) promotion, and why were they withdrawn? Did Siglent share their reasoning with you guys?
It seems only USA has dropped the addition free decodes whereas it's very clear for EU and Oceania (HQ) they are still part of the promotional offer.
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-63.html (https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-63.html)
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/sds2000x-plus-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes-promotions/ (https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/sds2000x-plus-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes-promotions/)
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Do all of you keep the 2000x plus on the bench, or which would be a fitting hard case?
Siglent offers a soft bag. But I'd prefer some hard case where other boxes could be stacked.
Most of the typical hard cases are 15cm high outside, which is slightly to low for the depth of the 2000x plus.
I found this one only:
https://www.peaktech.de/uk/PeakTech-P-7340-Universal-case-with-cube-foam-550x200x400-mm/P-7340 (https://www.peaktech.de/uk/PeakTech-P-7340-Universal-case-with-cube-foam-550x200x400-mm/P-7340)
which is kind of too big in the other dimensions.
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At work I´ve bought the BAG-2 (relative soft)for service travels, in private I got a hard case which also fits for my HD.
EDIT:
Here. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg2974750/#msg2974750)
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Yes Siglent NA saw the value in sourcing their own hard case and theirs is quite deep at a little over 7" (~190mm)
https://siglentna.com/product/hard-shell-carry-case/ (https://siglentna.com/product/hard-shell-carry-case/)
However it's a NA product only as I tried to get some. :(
After a few minutes looking the 430 x 350 x 190 size here seems to be an equivalent:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004280447213.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004280447213.html)
Datasheet measurements for SDS2000X Plus are 352 mm ×224 mm ×111 mm
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Good, but too expensive. It's a damn plastic box with foam..
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Good, but too expensive. It's a damn plastic box with foam..
:-DD
You think.
Well this is $20 cheaper:
https://siglentna.com/product/bag-s2/
Is it really unreasonable to spend the cost of a 500 MHz probe on a travel/storage case for a scope 10x that value ?
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Yes Siglent NA saw the value in sourcing their own hard case and theirs is quite deep at a little over 7" (~190mm)
https://siglentna.com/product/hard-shell-carry-case/ (https://siglentna.com/product/hard-shell-carry-case/)
However it's a NA product only as I tried to get some. :(
After a few minutes looking the 430 x 350 x 190 size here seems to be an equivalent:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004280447213.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004280447213.html)
Datasheet measurements for SDS2000X Plus are 352 mm ×224 mm ×111 mm
thx, Martin, Rob for the links.
So it's difficult to find something cool.
Just did another search in DE and found a similar case here, but no better one:
https://www.thomann.de/intl/flyht_pro_wp_safe_box_5_ip65.htm (https://www.thomann.de/intl/flyht_pro_wp_safe_box_5_ip65.htm)
not cheaper. :scared:
Maybe I should start the MPCNC and make a fitting box like those on the pic attached.
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I've been looking for a few online things lately and it seems darn near everything has jumped in price....except SDS2000X Plus it seems. :-DD
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Peter_O,
This is the case I´ve bought on amazon:
Type 5000 (https://www.amazon.de/outdoor-cases-Typ-5000-W%C3%BCrfelschaum-SI/dp/B00H25M0DQ/ref=sr_1_2?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=6ZW2TQVESPWJ&keywords=B%26W+Transportkoffer+Outdoor+-+Typ+5000&qid=1669149374&sprefix=b%26w+transportkoffer+outdoor+-+typ+5000%2Caps%2C133&sr=8-2)
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Hi to everyone,
i do have some questions about SDS2000x plus :
1) do serial decoders accept analog channels as input/s ?
2) do the serial decoders support triggering on data content ? (ie trigger upon a sequence of bytes out of async serial decoder)
3) is it possible to operate with an external program to store LA traces and / or decoders outputs ?
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Hi,
1) do serial decoders accept analog channels as input/s ?
yes.
2) do the serial decoders support triggering on data content ? (ie trigger upon a sequence of bytes out of async serial decoder)
3) is it possible to operate with an external program to store LA traces and / or decoders outputs ?
Afaik yes...
(pics taken from our siglent at work today (not hacked)
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-snip
Afaik yes...
Hi Martin,
thank you for your time, what i have understood is that serial decoder is able to make use of normal analog inputs, but i do not see a menu for trigger mechanism on serial decoder output that works with a matching pattern composed by a sequence of bytes, later i will look at Siglent website in search for some documentation about this matter.
The other important question that remains unanswered is :
does exist a PC program that manages DSO Logic Analyzer activities ? (excluding of course the remote screen produced by web server).
I'm considering to buy an SDS2104x Plus with LA probes but i have, before, to understand what the system is capable to (serial bus content triggering, remote LA operation).
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Hi,
Concerning trigger I´ve posted a pic, here one of the manual, the SPI trigger.
Link to manual :
https://www.batronix.com/files/Siglent/Oszilloskope/SDS2000X+/SDS2000X-Plus_UserManual_EN01C.pdf (https://www.batronix.com/files/Siglent/Oszilloskope/SDS2000X+/SDS2000X-Plus_UserManual_EN01C.pdf)
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I'm considering to buy an SDS2104x Plus with LA probes but i have, before, to understand what the system is capable to (serial bus content triggering, remote LA operation).
The manuals are available on-line for free. That might be a good place to start.
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I'm considering to buy an SDS2104x Plus with LA probes but i have, before, to understand what the system is capable to (serial bus content triggering, remote LA operation).
The manuals are available on-line for free. That might be a good place to start.
Yep, but sometime a question posed to experienced users may save a lot of time and / or could be undocumented features.
Anyhow, I will do for sure.
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I'm considering to buy an SDS2104x Plus with LA probes but i have, before, to understand what the system is capable to (serial bus content triggering, remote LA operation).
The manuals are available on-line for free. That might be a good place to start.
Yep, but sometime a question posed to experienced users may save a lot of time and / or could be undocumented features.
Anyhow, I will do for sure.
That is true and people help when they can. But for that to work it has to be targeted question for a specific thing. Generalized questions are better addressed by manuals because it's all there. So you browse through the manuals and ask for clarifications..
But I saw you repeating one question about triggering and would like to know if I got it right:
you would like to be able to trigger to a serial digital pattern. Do you mean that in any particular protocol (UART, I2C, SPI, CAN) or some custom defined sequence?
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-snip
But I saw you repeating one question about triggering and would like to know if I got it right:
you would like to be able to trigger to a serial digital pattern. Do you mean that in any particular protocol (UART, I2C, SPI, CAN) or some custom defined sequence?
Standard async serial (UART), trigger must take place on specific sequence of bytes taken from the decoder output.
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-snip
But I saw you repeating one question about triggering and would like to know if I got it right:
you would like to be able to trigger to a serial digital pattern. Do you mean that in any particular protocol (UART, I2C, SPI, CAN) or some custom defined sequence?
Standard async serial (UART), trigger must take place on specific sequence of bytes taken from the decoder output.
Ok so you want to trigger on a string (a multibyte sequence) ?
2000X+ can trigger only on single character, as far as I know. I don't have one to check so someone with SDS2000X+ correct me if I'm wrong.
In some other protocols you can trigger on more detailed data.
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I don't think HD protocol triggering is any different to X Plus or for that matter 5000X or 6000A models.
Some X Plus arrive in the next day or 2...... :phew:
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Ok, I will check further downloading manuals from official web site.
How about the PC application to manage LA operations, does it exist ?
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I don't think HD protocol triggering is any different to X Plus or for that matter 5000X or 6000A models.
Me too.
The decoding menus on my HD are 100% identical to the SDS2k+.
And I bet it is identical to 5000X/6000A also.
The decoders are in all cases simply outfitted, to say it in this way.
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How about the PC application to manage LA operations, does it exist ?
Do you mean remotely ?
Yes the webserver can do that and probably the SCPI command set too, I need check or you can in the programming manual:
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/22_07_25/SDS_ProgrammingGuide_EN11C.pdf
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How about the PC application to manage LA operations, does it exist ?
Do you mean remotely ?
Yes the webserver can do that and probably the SCPI command set too, I need check or you can in the programming manual:
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/22_07_25/SDS_ProgrammingGuide_EN11C.pdf
Thank you very much, I just checked the SCPI manual and for what concern LA commands I can only find something related to pattern trigger, it does not seems that you can operate the LA acquisition remotely.
My main need would be to transfer LA acquisition memory to a windows PC in order to visualize, analyze and store it to disk by an existing Windows application.
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My main need would be to transfer LA acquisition memory to a windows PC in order to visualize, analyze and store it to disk by an existing Windows application.
I think you want to look at the ":WAVeform:DATA" query. There is an example for downloading the data for a digital channel starting on page 562 of the PDF.
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My main need would be to transfer LA acquisition memory to a windows PC in order to visualize, analyze and store it to disk by an existing Windows application.
I think you can do that with a CSV or BIN file save.
With the front panel blue Print button we get PNG screenshots to internal or external storage but within the Save/Recall menu we have more filetype options which we can operate locally or remotely and even save to specified addresses.
The File Manager feature in the Save/Recall menu is quite powerful.
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As far as getting trigger on a multiple byte sequence of data (and assuming Saleae is not what you want to use), you might want to consider using a microcontroller with a simple firmware program that monitors the serial port and when it sees the data sequence you're interested in it toggles a GPIO that the oscilloscope or logic analyzer you're using can trigger on. I'd think this would be fairly straightforward to code up since sample code that reads/writes a serial port is generally readily available for most any microcontroller.
With a setup like that, you'd be able to use whatever scope or LA you want.
I don't know how easy that'd be compared to whatever capability Saleae's tools have (do you need to write an "HLA" to be able to trigger on an arbitrary byte sequence?).
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My main need would be to transfer LA acquisition memory to a windows PC in order to visualize, analyze and store it to disk by an existing Windows application.
I think you want to look at the ":WAVeform:DATA" query. There is an example for downloading the data for a digital channel starting on page 562 of the PDF.
Yes, you are right, it's possible to select digital channel as source data :
:WAVeform:SOURce D0
:WAVeform:DATA?
For some reason i was convinced that :WAV command group was related only to analog wavforms, but i was wrong :)
Ok, time to study in detail SCPI manual ...
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As far as getting trigger on a multiple byte sequence of data (and assuming Saleae is not what you want to use), you might want to consider using a microcontroller with a simple firmware program that monitors the serial port and when it sees the data sequence you're interested in it toggles a GPIO that the oscilloscope or logic analyzer you're using can trigger on. I'd think this would be fairly straightforward to code up since sample code that reads/writes a serial port is generally readily available for most any microcontroller.
With a setup like that, you'd be able to use whatever scope or LA you want.
I don't know how easy that'd be compared to whatever capability Saleae's tools have (do you need to write an "HLA" to be able to trigger on an arbitrary byte sequence?).
As I explained in another thread, MCU board programmed on the purpose is the system that I used till know, but i would like to change approach to be more flexible on the field and because now i'm developing many application on half duplex mono wire serial buses and I need to get actual sampling data of the line to spot bus collisions.
Of course i have other user cases for the DSO iteself, otherwise the purchase would not be justified to sniff serial line.
If LA command set includes what I need, i will add the LA kit on sale.
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I'm reaching out to more experienced (than me) SDS2000XP users to get some help.
I'm trying to set the time zone and I'm also trying to set up network storage, however I can't seem to get either to work and neither one is in the manual. Has anyone been successful in getting these features to work?
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I'm reaching out to more experienced (than me) SDS2000XP users to get some help.
I'm trying to set the time zone and I'm also trying to set up network storage, however I can't seem to get either to work and neither one is in the manual. Has anyone been successful in getting these features to work?
Hi,
Actually there is a "Timezone bug" present, I guess it´s "valid" for all touchscreen-models (2k+, 2k HD, 5k+, 6k A) because of more or less the same software.
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Well, I was certainly not going to pull out the "B" word again. The last time I did it created an international kerfuffel.
So that explains the undocumented time zone feature .. it can't be set.
How about the network storage?
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How about the network storage?
From the 1.5.2R1 - RelNotes
Fixed
Network storage only works for SMB1.0
What vers are you running ?
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SMB 1.0. My NAS is rather old and does not support anything better.
Is there any documentation about setting it up? It is, or should be, fairly simple unless they have done something weird. I'm using:
Drive letter: Z:
Directory: //[server_name]/share
User: [server_name]/[user_name]
Password: [password]
Result: Mount directory error: please check your parameters!
I have tried slashes the other way in various combination. I've tried not including the [server_name] in the user name. I've tried different drive letters. The NAS is a Thecus N4100PRO and it's running a form of Linux.
Update: Never mind. Even though prompts in the setting page suggest using the server name, the scope seems to have a problem with name resolution. I tried the IP address of the server and it worked. Thanks for helping out.
Update #2:
So this is what worked for me:
Drive letter: I:
Directory: //[server_IP]/[share_name]
User: [server_name]/[user_name]
Password: [password]
When is saves something, the scope creates a directory called "SIGLENT" on the specified share and stores files there.
Just an opinion, but if Siglent want to considered a top tier brand, they will have to up their game on documentation. Any time a feature is added or amended they should create and publish an addendum to the documentation and/or update the documentation.
Also in the release note for 1.5.2R1 - "Supported time zone setting" :(
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snip: Just an opinion, but if Siglent want to considered a top tier brand, they will have to up their game on documentation.
Such approach would end up in top tier brand prices too. Not what I want. ;)
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Such approach would end up in top tier brand prices too. Not what I want. ;)
Not really. Not in this day and age. Modern publication and content management tools would make it a snap and they have been around for a couple of decades now so there is a lot of expertise surrounding them and proper use practices.
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Not really. Not in this day and age.
I could go and tell it our sales department, maybe our customers would get the documentations for free then instead of paying extra. ;)
BTW, in lecroy manual you won´t find further explanations to the described functions.
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BTW, in lecroy manual you won´t find further explanations to the described functions.
In Siglent manuals you won't find the functions described at all.
I guess everyone is okay with poor documentation? :-//
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BTW, in lecroy manual you won´t find further explanations to the described functions.
In Siglent manuals you won't find the functions described at all.
I guess everyone is okay with poor documentation? :-//
Programers manual (for SCPI) is reference manual. And Siglent manual is not less detailed than Keysight one. On my 3000T I also use SCPI manual for details..
In perfect world we would still have documentation like old Hp had. But today they don't have it either..
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I guess everyone is okay with poor documentation?
My guess is, the manufacturers assume that you already know for what the functions are good for.
It´s not their task to educate you, this must be happen before.
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I'm sure that plenty of people here remember the days when you'd get schematics and possibly even source code for the software (remember that IBM published the BIOS source for the PC).
Sometimes you can still get that info, but almost never in the manual anymore. You've gotta dig it out of some support site or github repository - if it's made available at all.
I feel like I need a custom rant emoji.
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Programers manual (for SCPI) is reference manual.
Not sure about that. There are many things about the scope not included in the programmers manual.
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I guess everyone is okay with poor documentation?
My guess is, the manufacturers assume that you already know for what the functions are good for.
It´s not their task to educate you, this must be happen before.
Just how are you to be pre-educated on a new (undocumented) feature to a scope?
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Just wanna to confirm. The Telnet connection is still working on new devices.
Device: SDS2104X Plus
SW: 5.0.1.3.9R12
CPLD version: 3
Hardware version: 02.04
Port: 23
Login: root
Pswd: siglent_sds1000x_e
siglent_device_startup.sh file content is telnetd. The file must be in USB root directory, and USB should be inserted to scope, before turn on the scope.
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Just wanna to confirm. The Telnet connection is still working on new devices.
Device: SDS2104X Plus
SW: 5.0.1.3.9R12
CPLD version: 3
Hardware version: 02.04
Port: 23
Login: root
Pswd: siglent_sds1000x_e
siglent_device_startup.sh file content is telnetd. The file must be in USB root directory, and USB should be inserted to scope, before turn on the scope.
Hmmm... I just get "Connection Refused" even before getting a login prompt.
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Just wanna to confirm. The Telnet connection is still working on new devices.
Device: SDS2104X Plus
SW: 5.0.1.3.9R12
CPLD version: 3
Hardware version: 02.04
Port: 23
Login: root
Pswd: siglent_sds1000x_e
siglent_device_startup.sh file content is telnetd. The file must be in USB root directory, and USB should be inserted to scope, before turn on the scope.
Hmmm... I just get "Connection Refused" even before getting a login prompt.
Make sure:
1. USB stick is formated as FAT32 (I've used old 1GB USB2 stick formated as FAT32)
2. File "siglent_device_startup.sh" created and placed in USB root directory of USB flash drive.
(Ensure your windows system is configured to show file extension and you DID NOT create file like "siglent_device_startup.sh.txt")
3. File contains just one single word - "telnetd"
4. USB is connected before oscilloscope is powered on.
5. You connect using plain Telnet protocol, correct IP address, and use a port 23. Putty in Telnet mode or regular Windows
"telnet" command is perfectly fine.
You should get prompt to enter user name.
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Don't get it. :-//
What's the need for this ?
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Don't get it. :-//
What's the need for this ?
None. Just had some idle time and wanted to look around.
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Don't get it. :-//
What's the need for this ?
None. Just had some idle time and wanted to look around.
::)
Please do nothing more.
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Don't get it. :-//
What's the need for this ?
I'm going to use telnet connection to make backups of firmware/config files before doing something else. It would be interesting to find where the information about usage of trial options is kept. Maybe, after "upgrades" in the case of warranty repair/replace it would be useful to restore the oscilloscope back to it original state.
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Don't get it. :-//
What's the need for this ?
I'm going to use telnet connection to make backups of firmware/config files before doing something else. It would be interesting to find where the information about usage of trial options is kept. Maybe, after "upgrades" in the case of warranty repair/replace it would be useful to restore the oscilloscope back to it original state.
Please don't and instead have someone guide you through using the Python script. Much much safer.
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Please do nothing more.
No worries .. no longer have the time and probably won't remember next time I do.
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Hi. Last week I received my second SDS2104X Plus.
Today, I upgraded the bandwidth option up to 500 MHz.
This time I created frequency response graphs of 200 MHz, 350 MHz, and 500 MHz options using the FFT function. (Sorry no 100 MHz, because this idea came after upgrading it to 200 Mhz.)
I used a sweep signal generated by TPI 1001-B synthesizer which is fairly flat (I assume since I don't have a spectrum analyzer) between 35-1000 MHz.
[attach=1]
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Nice work, thanks.
FYI we already know a stock standard SDS2104X Plus has a -3dB point of ~185 MHz.
Maybe if you'd used multiple FFT markers and placed them each at the -3dB points we would have all that info in just one image. :)
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I did actually, but only for 350 MHz and 500 MHz options.
Here is 350 MHz. Looks like bandwidth is pretty generous. Measured 469 MHz.
[attachimg=1]
Also, for the 200 MHz option, I did some calculations on the graph and found something around 270 MHz.
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I used a sweep signal generated by TPI 1001-B synthesizer which is fairly flat (I assume since I don't have a spectrum analyzer) between 35-1000 MHz.
(Attachment Link)
I searched for the TPI 1001-B, and obviously it is based on the ADF4351. This synthesizer chip does not generate a sine wave. See figure 4 here (https://interferencetechnology.com/review-tpi-1001-b-rf-synthesizer/).
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That's right. During the sweep, harmonics are clearly visible.
But, it shouldn't affect the results since the sine wave is the fundamental component of the square wave. The rest are the harmonics at much higher frequencies.
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Just wanna to confirm. The Telnet connection is still working on new devices.
Device: SDS2104X Plus
SW: 5.0.1.3.9R12
CPLD version: 3
Hardware version: 02.04
Port: 23
Login: root
Pswd: siglent_sds1000x_e
siglent_device_startup.sh file content is telnetd. The file must be in USB root directory, and USB should be inserted to scope, before turn on the scope.
As I know, telnet support is removed with V1.5.2R1. So it should normally work with previous versions.
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Just wanna to confirm. The Telnet connection is still working on new devices.
Device: SDS2104X Plus
SW: 5.0.1.3.9R12
CPLD version: 3
Hardware version: 02.04
Port: 23
Login: root
Pswd: siglent_sds1000x_e
siglent_device_startup.sh file content is telnetd. The file must be in USB root directory, and USB should be inserted to scope, before turn on the scope.
As I know, telnet support is removed with V1.5.2R1. So it should normally work with previous versions.
Sad to hear... Knowing Linux the telnet connection is very useful in some specific cases.
Is it safe to upgrade if the 100MHz scope is "cured" to be SDS2504XP ? Maybe someone tried and know for sure? In the case of issue, can the 1.5 firmware still be downgraded back to 1.3.9R12 version? I did not notice any warning about that.
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My former SDS2104Xplus was hacked from the beginning and in this time until I´ve sold it, I could do every firmware upgrade without a problem.
The reason is simple, the license keys generated are "true" ones.
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+1. Same experience as Martin72 in all points mentioned.
-
+1
Don't know about downgradability of the v1.5. I wonder about it too.
-
+1
Don't know about downgradability of the v1.5. I wonder about it too.
Never have I seen an upgrade effect licensing, official or otherwise, it just don't as Martin says.
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@Tautech
Would you please ask Siglent to get telnet (or ssh) back with future firmware releases? As said by others, it can be useful.
Thanks.
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@Tautech
Would you please ask Siglent to get telnet (or ssh) back with future firmware releases? As said by others, it can be useful.
Thanks.
What for ? :-//
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@Tautech
Would you please ask Siglent to get telnet (or ssh) back with future firmware releases? As said by others, it can be useful.
Thanks.
What for ? :-//
Cannot think about any usage case, right now. But isn't it cool by itself having a full-fledged unix shell on your scope? ;D
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@Tautech
Would you please ask Siglent to get telnet (or ssh) back with future firmware releases? As said by others, it can be useful.
Thanks.
What for ? :-//
Cannot think about any usage case, right now.
Good, please keep it that way as there is absolutely no need to venture into the innards of the DSO !
That's been all done before and there are no further answers any of us need.
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@Tautech
Would you please ask Siglent to get telnet (or ssh) back with future firmware releases? As said by others, it can be useful.
Thanks.
What for ? :-//
Cannot think about any usage case, right now.
Good, please keep it that way as there is absolutely no need to venture into the innards of the DSO !
That's been all done before and there are no further answers any of us need.
If you are passionate about electronics, I'd say you should feel a compelling force that drives you toward tinkering with stuff, regardless of the actual benefit :popcorn:
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@Tautech
Would you please ask Siglent to get telnet (or ssh) back with future firmware releases? As said by others, it can be useful.
Thanks.
What for ? :-//
Cannot think about any usage case, right now.
Good, please keep it that way as there is absolutely no need to venture into the innards of the DSO !
That's been all done before and there are no further answers any of us need.
If you are passionate about electronics, I'd say you should feel a compelling force that drives you toward tinkering with stuff, regardless of the actual benefit :popcorn:
:)
The only benefits I see are not and actually just more work helping souls in despair that have messed with the OS and bricked the instrument for which they then need our help to recover. :horse:
Those that really know what they're doing don't need no darn open port to get into an instrument. :popcorn:
So after all the waffling today have you installed the latest firmware yet ? You should. The Timezone bug is a nothing and can be worked around with setting a UTC zone.
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Listen, I just updated the firmware.. Now, if you click on "file converter" on the web interface, it lets you download a file converter (wow!), in .zip format.
When you unzip it, it shows two files. A windows' .exe (the converter's executable), and a Readme text file. The Readme says:
"We provide two tools to convert bin file into csv file:Bin2csv.exe and Convert_bin_to_csv_file.py [etc, etc..]"
There is no python script. I'd like to have it.
Is it the same for y'all? No python converter in the .zip file??
Thanks.
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So after all the waffling today have you installed the latest firmware yet ? You should. The Timezone bug is a nothing and can be worked around with setting a UTC zone.
I just did! See my other complaints above ^-^
Seriously, I understand Siglent not wanting the customer to mess with the OS. And yet....
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Run/install Bin2csv.exe on your PC.....then you get options of how to manage the downloaded from DSO BIN files....you know those ones much smaller than CSV.
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The Timezone bug is a nothing and can be worked around with setting a UTC zone.
Until the bug will be fixed, shouldn´t last long.
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The Timezone bug is a nothing and can be worked around with setting a UTC zone.
Until the bug will be fixed, shouldn´t last long.
Guess is ~Chinese New Year, some 8-9 weeks away.
Normally a lot of FW updates are released then.
-
I´m curious about the next (second) HD update, but that´s an other topic.
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Run/install Bin2csv.exe on your PC.....then you get options of how to manage the downloaded from DSO BIN files....you know those ones much smaller than CSV.
Thing is that the .exe is windows only, while a .py would have been cross platform, and embeddable.
Would you please check if it's absent in your 2kX+(s) too?
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I also only get the Windows executable.
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Run/install Bin2csv.exe on your PC.....then you get options of how to manage the downloaded from DSO BIN files....you know those ones much smaller than CSV.
Thing is that the .exe is windows only, while a .py would have been cross platform, and embeddable.
Would you please check if it's absent in your 2kX+(s) too?
So you sourced your copy from the webserver button, correct.
Have a look in the scopes Save/Recall menu too or in File Manager.
Will have a hunt soon.
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Calibrating my HP3310A, I have just thought about:
How can I measure THD with a SDS2000X+?
Would have expected this as measurement of source F1=FFT. :-//
My HP35665A just shows the value in %.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1659688)
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This would be a huge effort when e.g. the table could present at the end the THD.
Actually there´s no alternative from counting the shds together.
When one of our tested inverter shows a suspicious THD on the analyzer, we connect a scope at the output and watching the shds on the FFT screen.
Table function allows you to display the shds in numeric form, as mentioned above it would be cool if the scope would display the thd also.
EDIT:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm (http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm)
THD table, calculator
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Also for me, no python script in the zip.
-
Run/install Bin2csv.exe on your PC.....then you get options of how to manage the downloaded from DSO BIN files....you know those ones much smaller than CSV.
Thing is that the .exe is windows only, while a .py would have been cross platform, and embeddable.
Would you please check if it's absent in your 2kX+(s) too?
So you sourced your copy from the webserver button, correct.
Have a look in the scopes Save/Recall menu too or in File Manager.
Will have a hunt soon.
This looks not bad and available in Windoze, Mac and Linux versions:
https://www.liquidinstruments.com/resources/update-log/li-file-converter/ (https://www.liquidinstruments.com/resources/update-log/li-file-converter/)
Tell me how it goes and if any good will add it to the POI list.
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Calibrating my HP3310A, I have just thought about:
How can I measure THD with a SDS2000X+?
Would have expected this as measurement of source F1=FFT. :-//
My HP35665A just shows the value in %.
It supports THD calculation in power analysis mode, so I asked a while ago if this could be added to the regular FFT as well:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/msg3625265/?topicseen#msg3625265 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/msg3625265/?topicseen#msg3625265)
No dice :-\
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Ahhh..
We should set it again on the wishlist, it´s one of the "most useful" wishes IMHO..
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Just linked this in another thread for Peter:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/362542224_Total_Harmonic_Distortion_THD_analysis_utilizing_the_FFT_capabilities_of_modern_digital_storage_oscilloscopes (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/362542224_Total_Harmonic_Distortion_THD_analysis_utilizing_the_FFT_capabilities_of_modern_digital_storage_oscilloscopes)
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Run/install Bin2csv.exe on your PC.....then you get options of how to manage the downloaded from DSO BIN files....you know those ones much smaller than CSV.
Thing is that the .exe is windows only, while a .py would have been cross platform, and embeddable.
Would you please check if it's absent in your 2kX+(s) too?
So you sourced your copy from the webserver button, correct.
Have a look in the scopes Save/Recall menu too or in File Manager.
Will have a hunt soon.
This looks not bad and available in Windoze, Mac and Linux versions:
https://www.liquidinstruments.com/resources/update-log/li-file-converter/ (https://www.liquidinstruments.com/resources/update-log/li-file-converter/)
Tell me how it goes and if any good will add it to the POI list.
It seems to work, thanks (tested with just one file though)
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Just linked this in another thread for Peter:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/362542224_Total_Harmonic_Distortion_THD_analysis_utilizing_the_FFT_capabilities_of_modern_digital_storage_oscilloscopes (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/362542224_Total_Harmonic_Distortion_THD_analysis_utilizing_the_FFT_capabilities_of_modern_digital_storage_oscilloscopes)
Thats a nice comprehensive paper, Rob, thx!
I did the adjustment by just minimizing the peak levels of the harmonics.
Before and after the adjustment.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1660474) (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1660462[attach=2])
Minimal tweaks of the two potis involved gave a nice improvement.
The manual of the 3310A just stated a "Distortion" of better than 46dB below the main signal.
As they suggest a HP331A for the distortion measurement, I checked that manual. The 331 just filters away the main frequency and offers the remaining signal to RMS measurement.
Will have to read the paper above first to think about a valid calculation.
Or did I miss a sophisticated filter funtion of the SDS2000x+?
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Just linked this in another thread for Peter:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/362542224_Total_Harmonic_Distortion_THD_analysis_utilizing_the_FFT_capabilities_of_modern_digital_storage_oscilloscopes (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/362542224_Total_Harmonic_Distortion_THD_analysis_utilizing_the_FFT_capabilities_of_modern_digital_storage_oscilloscopes)
Thats a nice comprehensive paper, Rob, thx!
I did the adjustment by just minimizing the peak levels of the harmonics.
Before and after the adjustment.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1660474) (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1660462 (Attachment Link) )
Minimal tweaks of the two potis involved gave a nice improvement.
The manual of the 3310A just stated a "Distortion" of better than 46dB below the main signal.
As they suggest a HP331A for the distortion measurement, I checked that manual. The 331 just filters away the main frequency and offers the remaining signal to RMS measurement.
Will have to read the paper above first to think about a valid calculation.
Or did I miss a sophisticated filter function of the SDS2000x+?
I was thinking you might be able to use the Math Equation editor to build some THD analysis formula.
Please don't ask for guidance as my algebra is abismal. :palm:
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Can´t imagine you can calculate this via editor, for THD you must summarize all SHDs, how can you determine them separately from the FFT in the editor...
Way better would be an implementation directly in the FFT menu like it is in the PA.
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Haven't played yet, but: Can I get the peak list exported, e.g. zu CSV? Then it would be easy in xls.
Edit: Now I have played:
I found no option to chose the part of screen content to export.
CSV export starts like this and delivers 524.300k records, intro included.
FFT Length,1048576
Record Length,524288
FFT Sample Rate,+2.000000E+07,
Delta Frequency,+1.907349E+01,
Start Frequency,+0.000000E+00,
Stop Frequency,+1.000000E+07,
Vertical Units,F1:,Real part,Vrms,Imaginary part,Vrms,Magnitude,dBV,
Model,SDS2504X Plus
Serial Number,SDS2[color=brown]xxxxxxxxxx[/color]
Software Version,5.0.1.5.2R1
SourceF1:
Frequency,Real part,Imaginary part,Magnitude,Angle
+0.000000E+00,-5.102248E-02,+0.000000E+00,-2.584477E+01,+3.141593E+00
+1.907349E+01,+3.603616E-02,-7.285543E-05,-2.886521E+01,-2.021729E-03
+3.814697E+01,+1.263447E-04,-6.157281E-05,-7.704340E+01,-4.534683E-01
+5.722046E+01,-1.235591E-04,+5.903102E-05,-7.726964E+01,+2.695899E+00
+7.629395E+01,+1.422552E-05,-6.032916E-05,-8.415446E+01,-1.339228E+00
...
No peak list export. :-//
-
Haven't played yet, but: Can I get the peak list exported, e.g. zu CSV? Then it would be easy in xls.
Edit: Now I have played:
I found no option to chose the part of screen content to export.
CSV export starts like this and delivers 524.300k records, intro included.
No peak list export. :-//
IIRC you can save in BIN format, much smaller than CSV and download the internal BIN2CSV tool to convert the BIN file back to CSV.
Also in FFT you can use the Peak Hold but unsure how that effects the file capture.
-
Haven't played yet, but: Can I get the peak list exported, e.g. zu CSV? Then it would be easy in xls.
Edit: Now I have played:
I found no option to chose the part of screen content to export.
CSV export starts like this and delivers 524.300k records, intro included.
FFT Length,1048576
Record Length,524288
FFT Sample Rate,+2.000000E+07,
Delta Frequency,+1.907349E+01,
Start Frequency,+0.000000E+00,
Stop Frequency,+1.000000E+07,
Vertical Units,F1:,Real part,Vrms,Imaginary part,Vrms,Magnitude,dBV,
Model,SDS2504X Plus
Serial Number,SDS2xxxxxxxxxx
Software Version,5.0.1.5.2R1
SourceF1:
Frequency,Real part,Imaginary part,Magnitude,Angle
+0.000000E+00,-5.102248E-02,+0.000000E+00,-2.584477E+01,+3.141593E+00
+1.907349E+01,+3.603616E-02,-7.285543E-05,-2.886521E+01,-2.021729E-03
+3.814697E+01,+1.263447E-04,-6.157281E-05,-7.704340E+01,-4.534683E-01
+5.722046E+01,-1.235591E-04,+5.903102E-05,-7.726964E+01,+2.695899E+00
+7.629395E+01,+1.422552E-05,-6.032916E-05,-8.415446E+01,-1.339228E+00
...
No peak list export. :-//
-
... and a question:
What is ths 'Para Switch' for in the Save menu?
CSV output seems to be identical on and off.
Edit: RTFMRM :palm: (... most recent ...):
>>CSV Data
Saves the waveform data to the external memory in ".csv" format. After
selecting this type, you can touch the ParaSwitch to determine to
include the scope configuration parameter information (horizontal
timebase, vertical scale, etc.) or not. Touch the Save All Channel to
save all displayed waveforms on the screen or select the Source to
save. The available sources include C1 ~ C4 and F1 ~ F2. <<
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... and a question:
What is ths 'Para Switch' for in the Save menu?
CSV output seems to be identical on and off.
From the User manual P309:
CSV Data
Saves the waveform data to the external memory in ".csv" format. After selecting this type, you can touch the ParaSwitch to determine to include the scope configuration parameter information (horizontal timebase, vertical scale, etc.) or not. Touch the Save All Channel to save all displayed waveforms on the screen or select the Source to save. The available sources include C1 ~ C4 and F1 ~ F2.
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Thx rob!
I just found that. See my edit. :palm: We wrote in parallel.
So it's a newer feature that came with one of the firmware upgrades. And Silent did an update of the manual too. Fine!
But what about a FFT peak list export?
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But what about a FFT peak list export?
I would try engaging FFT Peak Hold.
It will lift the noise floor and clean up the signal some therefore giving better data in the download to work with.
Sorry it's late here otherwise I'd offer some screenshots..... :=\
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Folks, having played with the scope for some weeks, I can report it's indeed a good instrument. And I suspect that as I (hopefully) improve my knowledge, I'll find it even better.
I'd like, however, to make a few observations..:
1. Using the web interface, one could theoretically use it as it was an usb scope, with all the advantages that come with that. Two things, however, do prevent a truly satisfying experience. A) The web interface is lagged. Like a lot lagged. One could observe that that's due to the vnc tunnel and/or the ethernet link, but when I control other PCs in my home network using vnc (or a variant thereof, like rdp) I experience almost no lag. There is much to be improved. Possibly, compression protocols, or whatever. B) The scope's 1024x600 interface looks horribly blurred and coarse when scaled up brutally to 28" 4K (3840x2160). That would be easily addressable by making the client perform proper rescaling (as most vnc PC clients do).
2. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to make the scope impervious to dust. Originally, I wanted to invert airflow direction, that is, making the big opening on the back an air intake, and use the lateral vents as exhaust. The scope would have had positive pressure inside it when turned on, and the back opening would have been easily filterable.
I'm not sure, however, that inverting the airflow is actually a good idea. One alternative would be leaving the airflow direction as it is, and filter the lateral intakes. It'll be ugly, though. The only way to do this is by applying bi-adhesive, and then cut two strips of filter and attaching them to the bi-adhesive. Advice would be welcome.
-
Folks, having played with the scope for some weeks, I can report it's indeed a good instrument. And I suspect that as I (hopefully) improve my knowledge, I'll find it even better.
I'd like, however, to make a few observations..:
1. Using the web interface, one could theoretically use it as it was an usb scope, with all the advantages that come with that. Two things, however, do prevent a truly satisfying experience. A) The web interface is lagged. Like a lot lagged. One could observe that that's due to the vnc tunnel and/or the ethernet link, but when I control other PCs in my home network using vnc (or a variant thereof, like rdp) I experience almost no lag. There is much to be improved. Possibly, compression protocols, or whatever. B) The scope's 1024x600 interface looks horribly blurred and coarse when scaled up brutally to 28" 4K (3840x2160). That would be easily addressable by making the client perform proper rescaling (as most vnc PC clients do).
2. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to make the scope impervious to dust. Originally, I wanted to invert airflow direction, that is, making the big opening on the back an air intake, and use the lateral vents as exhaust. The scope would have had positive pressure inside it when turned on, and the back opening would have been easily filterable.
I'm not sure, however, that inverting the airflow is actually a good idea. One alternative would be leaving the airflow direction as it is, and filter the lateral intakes. It'll be ugly, though. The only way to do this is by applying bi-adhesive, and then cut two strips of filter and attaching them to the bi-adhesive. Advice would be welcome.
It is using VNC. Scope is small embedded processor based. Comparing VNC performance with powerful PC host is not really propper comparison.
I do see a bit faster response (a really small one) when using dedicated VNC client software on PC side.
Compression would not help, it is not network speed.
Also, you cannot resize non integer ratios and expect perfect rendering..
-
Folks, having played with the scope for some weeks, I can report it's indeed a good instrument. And I suspect that as I (hopefully) improve my knowledge, I'll find it even better.
I'd like, however, to make a few observations..:
1. Using the web interface, one could theoretically use it as it was an usb scope, with all the advantages that come with that. Two things, however, do prevent a truly satisfying experience. A) The web interface is lagged. Like a lot lagged. One could observe that that's due to the vnc tunnel and/or the ethernet link, but when I control other PCs in my home network using vnc (or a variant thereof, like rdp) I experience almost no lag. There is much to be improved. Possibly, compression protocols, or whatever. B) The scope's 1024x600 interface looks horribly blurred and coarse when scaled up brutally to 28" 4K (3840x2160). That would be easily addressable by making the client perform proper rescaling (as most vnc PC clients do).
2. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to make the scope impervious to dust. Originally, I wanted to invert airflow direction, that is, making the big opening on the back an air intake, and use the lateral vents as exhaust. The scope would have had positive pressure inside it when turned on, and the back opening would have been easily filterable.
I'm not sure, however, that inverting the airflow is actually a good idea. One alternative would be leaving the airflow direction as it is, and filter the lateral intakes. It'll be ugly, though. The only way to do this is by applying bi-adhesive, and then cut two strips of filter and attaching them to the bi-adhesive. Advice would be welcome.
It is using VNC. Scope is small embedded processor based. Comparing VNC performance with powerful PC host is not really propper comparison.
I do see a bit faster response (a really small one) when using dedicated VNC client software on PC side.
Compression would not help, it is not network speed.
Also, you cannot resize non integer ratios and expect perfect rendering..
I know it uses vnc, that's why I was asking for the same behaviour we get on a PC-to-PC vnc connection. About the impossibility of having zero (or near zero) lag and the lack of computational power, I understand. But as for the resolution, note how vnc clients perform resizing & rescaling on PCs (I mean both proper vnc clients and rdp on windows): regardless of the resolution/size of the monitor attached to the host you are remotely operating (or even if it's a headless machine) the resolution is always properly rescaled for the monitor you are using on the guest PC. The OS's UI is rescaled accordingly.
That's because the non-integer ratios between pixels don't enter into the picture at all. The host sends the information to the guest about what's supposed to be rendered on the screen. The guest's vnc client performs the actual rendering at the native resolution.
I wonder why we cannot have the same for the scope interface.
If you want to bring ratios in the picture because, say, the PC-style rescaling is too demanding for some reason (but the heavy lifting is made on the client..), then it would suffice to rescale up to a window sized as the maximum integer-multiple resolution that's closest to the native one. E.g., I got a 4K monitor, then it could rescale at 1024*3 x 600*3.
-
Folks, having played with the scope for some weeks, I can report it's indeed a good instrument. And I suspect that as I (hopefully) improve my knowledge, I'll find it even better.
I'd like, however, to make a few observations..:
1. Using the web interface, one could theoretically use it as it was an usb scope, with all the advantages that come with that. Two things, however, do prevent a truly satisfying experience. A) The web interface is lagged. Like a lot lagged. One could observe that that's due to the vnc tunnel and/or the ethernet link, but when I control other PCs in my home network using vnc (or a variant thereof, like rdp) I experience almost no lag. There is much to be improved. Possibly, compression protocols, or whatever. B) The scope's 1024x600 interface looks horribly blurred and coarse when scaled up brutally to 28" 4K (3840x2160). That would be easily addressable by making the client perform proper rescaling (as most vnc PC clients do).
2. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to make the scope impervious to dust. Originally, I wanted to invert airflow direction, that is, making the big opening on the back an air intake, and use the lateral vents as exhaust. The scope would have had positive pressure inside it when turned on, and the back opening would have been easily filterable.
I'm not sure, however, that inverting the airflow is actually a good idea. One alternative would be leaving the airflow direction as it is, and filter the lateral intakes. It'll be ugly, though. The only way to do this is by applying bi-adhesive, and then cut two strips of filter and attaching them to the bi-adhesive. Advice would be welcome.
It is using VNC. Scope is small embedded processor based. Comparing VNC performance with powerful PC host is not really propper comparison.
I do see a bit faster response (a really small one) when using dedicated VNC client software on PC side.
Compression would not help, it is not network speed.
Also, you cannot resize non integer ratios and expect perfect rendering..
I know it uses vnc, that's why I was asking for the same behaviour we get on a PC-to-PC vnc connection. About the impossibility of having zero (or near zero) lag and the lack of computational power, I understand. But as for the resolution, note how vnc clients perform resizing & rescaling on PCs (I mean both proper vnc clients and rdp on windows): regardless of the resolution/size of the monitor attached to the host you are remotely operating (or even if it's a headless machine) the resolution is always properly rescaled for the monitor you are using on the guest PC. The OS's UI is rescaled accordingly.
That's because the non-integer ratios between pixels don't enter into the picture at all. The host sends the information to the guest about what's supposed to be rendered on the screen. The guest's vnc client performs the actual rendering at the native resolution.
I wonder why we cannot have the same for the scope interface.
If you want to bring ratios in the picture because, say, the PC-style rescaling is too demanding for some reason (but the heavy lifting is made on the client..), then it would suffice to rescale up to a window sized as the maximum integer-multiple resolution that's closest to the native one. E.g., I got a 4K monitor, then it could rescale at 1024*3 x 600*3.
Ahh.. now I get it what are you talking... VNC viewer built in web control doesn't have rescaling options.....
Yeah, this is HTML5 VNC client in browser (in Java), and not fully featured desktop application...
I use web control non resized 100% screen most of the time (it's large enough) and if I need more control of the VNC parameters I use VNC Viewer on a PC..
I don't like or use 4K monitors because they make pixels so small you need to resize everything to be able to see... So I avoid problem in the first place..
110 DPI monitor I have is highest pixel density that makes sense on desktop PC to me.. 3440x1440 for a monitor with 800x335 mm display size. (34" SJ55W Ultra WQHD Monitor). And that is marginally on a smallish side already for my eyes..
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Folks, having played with the scope for some weeks, I can report it's indeed a good instrument. And I suspect that as I (hopefully) improve my knowledge, I'll find it even better.
I'd like, however, to make a few observations..:
1. Using the web interface, one could theoretically use it as it was an usb scope, with all the advantages that come with that. Two things, however, do prevent a truly satisfying experience. A) The web interface is lagged. Like a lot lagged. One could observe that that's due to the vnc tunnel and/or the ethernet link, but when I control other PCs in my home network using vnc (or a variant thereof, like rdp) I experience almost no lag. There is much to be improved. Possibly, compression protocols, or whatever. B) The scope's 1024x600 interface looks horribly blurred and coarse when scaled up brutally to 28" 4K (3840x2160). That would be easily addressable by making the client perform proper rescaling (as most vnc PC clients do).
2. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to make the scope impervious to dust. Originally, I wanted to invert airflow direction, that is, making the big opening on the back an air intake, and use the lateral vents as exhaust. The scope would have had positive pressure inside it when turned on, and the back opening would have been easily filterable.
I'm not sure, however, that inverting the airflow is actually a good idea. One alternative would be leaving the airflow direction as it is, and filter the lateral intakes. It'll be ugly, though. The only way to do this is by applying bi-adhesive, and then cut two strips of filter and attaching them to the bi-adhesive. Advice would be welcome.
It is using VNC. Scope is small embedded processor based. Comparing VNC performance with powerful PC host is not really propper comparison.
I do see a bit faster response (a really small one) when using dedicated VNC client software on PC side.
Compression would not help, it is not network speed.
Also, you cannot resize non integer ratios and expect perfect rendering..
I know it uses vnc, that's why I was asking for the same behaviour we get on a PC-to-PC vnc connection. About the impossibility of having zero (or near zero) lag and the lack of computational power, I understand. But as for the resolution, note how vnc clients perform resizing & rescaling on PCs (I mean both proper vnc clients and rdp on windows): regardless of the resolution/size of the monitor attached to the host you are remotely operating (or even if it's a headless machine) the resolution is always properly rescaled for the monitor you are using on the guest PC. The OS's UI is rescaled accordingly.
That's because the non-integer ratios between pixels don't enter into the picture at all. The host sends the information to the guest about what's supposed to be rendered on the screen. The guest's vnc client performs the actual rendering at the native resolution.
I wonder why we cannot have the same for the scope interface.
If you want to bring ratios in the picture because, say, the PC-style rescaling is too demanding for some reason (but the heavy lifting is made on the client..), then it would suffice to rescale up to a window sized as the maximum integer-multiple resolution that's closest to the native one. E.g., I got a 4K monitor, then it could rescale at 1024*3 x 600*3.
Ahh.. now I get it what are you talking... VNC viewer built in web control doesn't have rescaling options.....
Yeah, this is HTML5 VNC client in browser (in Java), and not fully featured desktop application...
I use web control non resized 100% screen most of the time (it's large enough) and if I need more control of the VNC parameters I use VNC Viewer on a PC..
I don't like or use 4K monitors because they make pixels so small you need to resize everything to be able to see... So I avoid problem in the first place..
110 DPI monitor I have is highest pixel density that makes sense on desktop PC to me.. 3440x1440 for a monitor with 800x335 mm display size. (34" SJ55W Ultra WQHD Monitor). And that is marginally on a smallish side already for my eyes..
I didn't think about using a proper vnc viewer to access the scope interface.. Thanks, I'll try ASAP. Any recommendation on specific clients that work best with the scope 'server' would be welcome.
Anyway, 4K monitors (Or any 'high dpi' display) are not meant to be used at their native resolution without (once more) scaling. People usually set the scaling factor between 150% and 200%. For example, at 200% you'll see things exactly as you would with a 1080p monitor of the same size, just much sharper (and that's important if you work a lot with text, particularly pdf/ps/dvi docs that won't cope well with a low-dpi screen).
Note, however, that the problem I described is not directly related with my monitor being 4K. It's just that 1024x600 is a very, very low resolution with respect to a 28" screen size (I can clearly discern the single pixels even on the 10" screen of the scope at 40-50cm viewing distance). It would look blurred all the same on a 28" even if that display's resolution would be much less than 4K.
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I didn't think about using a proper vnc viewer to access the scope interface.. Thanks, I'll try ASAP. Any recommendation on specific clients that work best with the scope 'server' would be welcome...
Tried few of them. All of them worked well. Now I use RealVNC VNC Viewer for all my VNC-ing.
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I don't see any huge advantage of VNC over the web interface. There may be a few ms difference. That's it.
Not enough to make me install more spyware permanently on my system.
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THD measurement
This would be a huge effort when e.g. the table could present at the end the THD.
Actually there´s no alternative from counting the shds together.
When one of our tested inverter shows a suspicious THD on the analyzer, we connect a scope at the output and watching the shds on the FFT screen.
Table function allows you to display the shds in numeric form, as mentioned above it would be cool if the scope would display the thd also.
EDIT:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm (http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm)
THD table, calculator
I played some more:
It was easy to verify the calculation of the HP35665A THD value displayed;
I did it this way:
- Define the number of peaks to take into calculation at the 'Harmonic' menu, e.g. 10.
- Grab the 11 peak values by marker and put them into Excel.
- Do the calculation, e.g. following the paper Rob found:
Just linked this in another thread for Peter:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/362542224_Total_Harmonic_Distortion_THD_analysis_utilizing_the_FFT_capabilities_of_modern_digital_storage_oscilloscopes (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/362542224_Total_Harmonic_Distortion_THD_analysis_utilizing_the_FFT_capabilities_of_modern_digital_storage_oscilloscopes)
Having read it now, it seems to be kind of a seminar paper on bachelor level, but it does give the basics you need.
Result: HP35665A shows 0,199% THD, calulation gives: 0,19931% So HP do it by rulebook of course.
On the Siglent:
1st Step: by hand
- I fiddled with the reference level to get the maximum count of harmonics into the table, which was 8 in my case.
- Typing the values into XLS
- calculate
The result is 0,2288% which is in the same ballpark.
EDIT:
2nd step: automated
After exporting the FFT as CSV and adding some quick and dirty formulas, we get 0,2151%, which is feasible, because the formulas do take 10 peaks beside the base frequency:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1664548)
The xls ist attached too. The export was some 500.000 records, I shortened it to 5000*, because all the action is in the first 5000 records.
- Open your csv export in XLS, convert csv into columns (make sure to address the decimal delimiter right) and paste the columns 1:1 into the left part of the attached XLS.
- Fill in the base frequency (yellow), and there you go. 8)
*) In case of regular need one should think about a better config of frequency range and number of points. :palm:
And finally, to do the HP3310A justice: After some more adjusting it now shows a THD of 0,118% at 5kHz and 1V RMS.
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....
The result is 0,2288% which is in the same ballpark.
.....
Picoscopes have THD measurements:
4262 16bit combined has distortion floor of 0,002% (I don't know if this is source or scope limit).
So both generated and measured signal will be better than this.
Let's take it as a reference for this purpose.
3406D 8 Bit has distortion floor of 0,183% (with source with 0.002% distortion).
When measuring source with 0,036% it measures 0,194%.
4824A 12 bit has distortion floor of 0,019%
And measures that 0,036% source as 0,039%, really close.
FFT: 100kHz BW, 64k bins, 200kS/s
Sources: Pico 4262 (less than 0.002%) and SDG6000X 0,036%(5kHz signal, 600mv P-P.)
These would be realistic limits...
So in direct THD measurements 8bit scope would be good to measure some non critical distortion. 12 Bit already does quite well in this regard.
Of course if a classic technique of suppressing the fundamental tone with a notch filter is used, then you could measure very low distortion even with 8 bit scope.
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I don't see any huge advantage of VNC over the web interface. There may be a few ms difference. That's it.
Not enough to make me install more spyware permanently on my system.
You have to install just the vnc client, NOT the server.
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You have to install just the vnc client, NOT the server.
Right. Are you under the impression the client cannot be spyware? It is. It's confirmed. When active, it communicates with an external site. If your okay with that, that's fine. Not that I'm assuming they are doing anything detrimental with whatever data they are collecting, but I just don't feel I get enough from the product to warrant that exchange. As I said, the web interface works just fine and does not feel any more lagging than the VNC client, so why burden my system with more code that consumes resources I may need for other more useful things.
WE all run lots of spyware. Chrome is spyware, MS Word is spyware. Windows is spyware. It goes on and on. Almost everything you run on your system is spyware. It's collecting data and sending it off your network to someone else. Just be aware of that and balance that cost with the benefit of running the software. In my case VNC offers me nothing for the space it takes up and the resources it uses.
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You have to install just the vnc client, NOT the server.
Right. Are you under the impression the client cannot be spyware? It is. It's confirmed. When active, it communicates with an external site. If your okay with that, that's fine. Not that I'm assuming they are doing anything detrimental with whatever data they are collecting, but I just don't feel I get enough from the product to warrant that exchange. As I said, the web interface works just fine and does not feel any more lagging than the VNC client, so why burden my system with more code that consumes resources I may need for other more useful things.
WE all run lots of spyware. Chrome is spyware, MS Word is spyware. Windows is spyware. It goes on and on. Almost everything you run on your system is spyware. It's collecting data and sending it off your network to someone else. Just be aware of that and balance that cost with the benefit of running the software. In my case VNC offers me nothing for the space it takes up and the resources it uses.
Ok, if you enlist the operating system into the spyware troopers, of course almost every piece of software out there can be spyware/malware.
Of course windows or web browsers collect data, but the companies behind such software pieces are bound by law not to use them maliciously.
What I wanted to highlight was that with a vnc server installed one can potentially gain remote control of your machine (but you have to be very sloppy), whereas that's not possible with just the client.
As for latency, indeed a discrete vnc client doesn't seem to ameliorate the issue. But I still don't follow Sinisa's explanation: indeed, if the processor is powerful enough to send stuff to the instrument's own screen with an optimal update rate, I don't see why it cannot send the same stuff through an ethernet->vnc link. That's not computationally intense.
Vnc clients also don't do sh*t about the raw rescaling. I tested four of them (Real, Tight, Ultra, and Tiger).
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Are you under the impression the client cannot be spyware? It is. It's confirmed.
There are several VNC clients, some open source. Are they all spyware?
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There are several VNC clients, some open source. Are they all spyware?
:-//
Haven't tested them all. You can if you like.
My policy is: Don't install software that does not offer benefit over and above the cost in terms of resources.
I've made a lot of money off people that just completely drown their systems by installing tons of junk "free" software they never use. MOST of it IS spyware, poorly designed, installs persistent processes and makes the system unstable. You don't get much for free these days (never did BTW) and most of the free crap out there comes with all the care and consideration for your system that you would expect for the price.
As for me, I will only install exactly what I need and nothing more and if I no longer use it, I take it off and clean up after it.
You do you.
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Has anyone watched the short Siglent video on using VNC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W433RFMT8A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W433RFMT8A)
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Has anyone watched the short Siglent video on using VNC:
Thanks!
Just did and was aware of all that. Still not enough added value for me to install it again. Tried it and it does not offer enough advantage to warrant staying on my system. My web browser is sufficient and I can use it for a lot of additional things I can't use VNC for.
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Has anyone watched the short Siglent video on using VNC:
Thanks!
Just did and was aware of all that. Still not enough added value for me to install it again. Tried it and it does not offer enough advantage to warrant staying on my system. My web browser is sufficient and I can use it for a lot of additional things I can't use VNC for.
Agree as the inbuilt webserver is already much more powerful but a customer used it to remotely monitor a new X Plus we sold them to solve an issue that had plagued them for a couple of years with a Single shot capture with carefully set trigger conditions.
Pleased they were too as they had other channels capturing data that led to the capture and all with a timestamp too. :)
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We are talking about nothing here, Billy. Using a vnc client or the web interface (which is just a frontend for the vnc server on the scope), apart from personal tastes is utterly irrelevant since none offer proper hi-dpi scaling or other benefits. For example, vnc clients can usually record the screen, but that turns out to be unavailable because "the remote host doesn't allow it".
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Hi,
I found other solution with small FAN PWM controller - ZF1X4, which can be found in AliExpress. It has 4 pin connector which is compatible with the Noctua NF-A9 PWM fan (in my case, it was the ChromaMax series of the NF-A9 PWM). The controller can be attached to the fan using double sided tape.
The controller has one button and 3 leds with which is possible to set the minimum temperature and maximum delta temperature. I set it to min 30C and delta 10C, which means that at 40C, the PWM will be 100%.
The setting is a not very intuitive, but the sequence is the following:
1. Press long the button - the LED 1 will be switch on, which is the default setting for min temp. of 30C. pressing once will increase the min. temp. pressing twice will decrease the temp. The new settings is encoding as binary code by LED 1,2,3 like:
1 2 3
on off off - 30C
off on off - 35C
on on off - 40C
off off on - 45C
on off on - 50C
off on on - 60C
on on on - 70C
2. Press long second time the button - you are entering in the delta temp menu. Here is the settings
1 2 3
on off off - 5C
off on off - 15C
on on off - 20C
off off on - 30C
on off on - 40C
off on on - 50C
on on on - 60C
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SDS2000X Plus Series Firmware Update
Version： V1.5.2R2
2022-12-22
Release notes:
1. Fixed a calibration bug only existing on Rev.G hardware (06-xx).
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Oscilloscope/SDS2000X%20Plus_V1.5.2R2_EN.zip
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Just received a SDS2104X Plus with V1.5.2R1, with disabled telnet. If you need telnet, the downgrade to 1.3.9R12 worked.
For some reason the telnet password no longer works, even after the downgrade (root/siglent_sds1000x_e), however to get around it just use telnetd -l /bin/sh in the siglent_device_startup.sh file, then it won't ask for any login details.
Updated then to 1.5.2R2, all good
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Am I doing something wrong?? Not sure its a bug but I can't figure it out so putting it in this thread.
SDS2104X+ with V1.5.2R2 firmware (this same behavior existed on V1.3.? firmware I had prior)
Probing a serial bus that sends periodic packets, it seemed obvious that the scope was not triggering on every packet. This problem can be reproduced, for example, by setting up the AWG for a 10ms pulse every 1s. Timebase set to 10ms/div. Trigger normal mode, on rising edge, 8ns holdoff, holdoff start on acquisition start.
When I do this I can see Trig'd LED blinks only once every 2 seconds, or every other pulse. If I set holdoff start on last trigger, It does indeed trigger every second/on every pulse. Am I missing something?
I read the manual and can't really make sense of the difference between holdoff start on acquisition start vs. last trigger, but I wouldn't expect this behavior regardless.
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Am I doing something wrong?? Not sure its a bug but I can't figure it out so putting it in this thread.
SDS2104X+ with V1.5.2R2 firmware (this same behavior existed on V1.3.? firmware I had prior)
Probing a serial bus that sends periodic packets, it seemed obvious that the scope was not triggering on every packet. This problem can be reproduced, for example, by setting up the AWG for a 10ms pulse every 1s. Timebase set to 10ms/div. Trigger normal mode, on rising edge, 8ns holdoff, holdoff start on acquisition start.
When I do this I can see Trig'd LED blinks only once every 2 seconds, or every other pulse. If I set holdoff start on last trigger, It does indeed trigger every second/on every pulse. Am I missing something?
I read the manual and can't really make sense of the difference between holdoff start on acquisition start vs. last trigger, but I wouldn't expect this behavior regardless.
Typically to get rock solid basic triggering that results in reliable decoding you need first do these things:
Set trigger to Clk or CS channels
Set correct edge, normally but not always a Falling edge.
Set Trigger Holdoff to just larger than the longest byte.
Then progress to setting Decode parameters with care to set Thresholds to within each waveform
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Hi,
ran into a small prob today.
Running the Bode plot function and internal awg to do a frequency response check of an +60dB lownoise amp.
Connected the awg with smallest output of 4mVpp to Ch1 and the LNA's input, and the output of the LNA to Ch2.
Plots went really well, but I couldn't get the 'measure' menue to spit out the LF, UF and BW values of Ch2.
The manual appears to be quite clear on this point, though a bit short-worded.
I followed the steps .... 1. choose from P1-P5, 2. choose from channel (Ch2 in this case) 3. choose from function (P1-LF, P2-UF and P3-BW) 4. close the menue and start the plot.
The P's are listed together with the function, but the line below where the values should show up just puts out triple*.
Q: What would be the correct procedure to get the required values shown?
regards
Calvin
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Am I doing something wrong?? Not sure its a bug but I can't figure it out so putting it in this thread.
SDS2104X+ with V1.5.2R2 firmware (this same behavior existed on V1.3.? firmware I had prior)
Probing a serial bus that sends periodic packets, it seemed obvious that the scope was not triggering on every packet. This problem can be reproduced, for example, by setting up the AWG for a 10ms pulse every 1s. Timebase set to 10ms/div. Trigger normal mode, on rising edge, 8ns holdoff, holdoff start on acquisition start.
When I do this I can see Trig'd LED blinks only once every 2 seconds, or every other pulse. If I set holdoff start on last trigger, It does indeed trigger every second/on every pulse. Am I missing something?
I read the manual and can't really make sense of the difference between holdoff start on acquisition start vs. last trigger, but I wouldn't expect this behavior regardless.
There is very significant difference between these two.
User Manual:
Acq Start--
The initial position of holdoff is the first time point satisfying the trigger condition.
Last Trig Time--
The initial position of holdoff is the time of the last trigger.
This last one is this conventional, usual traditional, but also "normal" trigger Hold off. Easy to use and easy to understand. This was also very important in old analog oscilloscopes. (but still very useful and important in modern oscilloscopes) And implemented in all normal oscilloscopes. Least I do not know any one what do not have this.
Modern digital scope need less this if or when user have enough knowledge and skills how to use modern oscilloscope several different trigger modes with all these parameters. One good (and extremely simple) example is AM modulation where some peoples still use trigger Holdoff for stabilize it for modulating frequency. Today there is lot of better solutions what lead lot of better result including also normal case when modulating frequency is variable. Old foxes just need to learn new ways.
But back to this special Holdoff mode: "Acq Start"
It works well in many circumstances, but then your example is one where it doesn't work well - or least can be confusing. First I think there is one small bug that can be seen using your example but it is not so simple.... When I test it with burst signals (many edges in one acquisition) it seems to work ok. But if your example has one pulse per acquisition memory length, it "looks like" won't work correctly. At least it is easy to think it's wrong, but....
In your example, the first time point that meets the trigger condition is the rising edge of a single pulse. But due to the hold time, this edge trigger condition met condition is now ignored. And then 8ns (in your example) passed. And then the NEXT rising edge happens after one second. Now it will trigger because the hold time has expired. Now this trigger sequence is also complete and reset for the next trigger hold. The next pulse start hold timer and trigger will not occur until it has expired. It follows that only every other pulse can time the trigger cycle. (and every other trigger condition is met, covered by a delete timer).
But is it right or wrong. If, in our opinion, it is incorrect, such trigger delay process shall be reset after this current acquisition end without the next trigger condition being met during this acquisition period.
What will happen if it do this. Well, in your example case, it never trig. Because only one trigger condition met exist in this acquisition for the entire length and this first one is covered due to the Holdoff timer). If this happen then user may be even more confused.
A bit hard to explain without principle illustrations due to my poor English.
Should the oscilloscope display a warning text that there is only one triggering condition in the signal with the length of one sample memory. That the next condition did not occur until the next frame. Grin.
If think carefully and understand how it work, this what happen is just logical but may be confusing in some cases.
Perhaps it need explain much better in the User Manual or make better UI with good on screen illustrations how it works (We do not have full "User Reference manual" where is every detail deeply and exactly explained).
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In your example, the first time point that meets the trigger condition is the rising edge of a single pulse. But due to the hold time, this edge trigger condition met condition is now ignored. And then 8ns (in your example) passed. And then the NEXT rising edge happens after one second. Now it will trigger because the hold time has expired. Now this trigger sequence is also complete and reset for the next trigger hold. The next pulse start hold timer and trigger will not occur until it has expired. It follows that only every other pulse can time the trigger cycle. (and every other trigger condition is met, covered by a delete timer).
Thanks @rf-loop. This helps/is the explanation I was looking for. Perhaps your english isn't the best, but this is a helpful understanding that I was not getting from the manual. :) I kept thinking/confused: whats the difference between acquisition start and last trigger?? Acquisition starts with a trigger!! The next acquisition should start with my trigger condition right??
Perhaps the use of the word acquisition was throwing me off, because I assume an acquisition to be what I see on the screen. My screen is 100mS long in the example, so 8nS is well expired, and I expect the next pulse to meet the condition to trigger. But in this case of the Siglent scope "acquisition start" is the NEXT acquisition, defined as when the basic trigger condition is met. It then applies the hold time, but if no other trigger condition is met after the holdoff, this "acquisition" is not valid/displayed.
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In your example, the first time point that meets the trigger condition is the rising edge of a single pulse. But due to the hold time, this edge trigger condition met condition is now ignored. And then 8ns (in your example) passed. And then the NEXT rising edge happens after one second. Now it will trigger because the hold time has expired. Now this trigger sequence is also complete and reset for the next trigger hold. The next pulse start hold timer and trigger will not occur until it has expired. It follows that only every other pulse can time the trigger cycle. (and every other trigger condition is met, covered by a delete timer).
Thanks @rf-loop. This helps/is the explanation I was looking for. Perhaps your english isn't the best, but this is a helpful understanding that I was not getting from the manual. :) I kept thinking/confused: whats the difference between acquisition start and last trigger?? Acquisition starts with a trigger!! The next acquisition should start with my trigger condition right??
Perhaps the use of the word acquisition was throwing me off, because I assume an acquisition to be what I see on the screen. My screen is 100mS long in the example, so 8nS is well expired, and I expect the next pulse to meet the condition to trigger. But in this case of the Siglent scope "acquisition start" is the NEXT acquisition, defined as when the basic trigger condition is met. It then applies the hold time, but if no other trigger condition is met after the holdoff, this "acquisition" is not valid/displayed.
Yes this is bit confusing with terminology.
Acq Start--
The initial position of holdoff is the first time point satisfying the trigger condition.
Usually, if not think deeply how digital oscilloscope works, user think acquisition start from left side of screen when whole acquisition length is displayed.
And if user think this, then it do not work at all as user may expect. Due to this "Acq Start" thinking...
But here Holdoff timer start from first point where trigger condition is true and as long as timer is running trigger engine output (trig) is inhibited.
If you run some pulse burst signals what have example 5 pulses 2ms high 2ms low, and then say example 500ms pause.
Now set example 5ms or 10ms/div. With normal trigger you see 5 pulses. Trig is just first rising edge.
After then set Holdoff "Acq Start--" mode and start carefully adjust this Holdoff time from minimum to bit over 2ms.... then continue bit over 4ms and so on and look where it trig. (it looks like trig Nth edge but it is not based to edges count, it based only to time, elapsed from first point when trigger condition true)
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Hi,
does no one actually have an A to my Q from #3977? The sdsplus has undergone so much testing and reviewing, that I can't believe this point would have gone missed.
How can one measure (or activate the 'measure' function) LF UF and BW doing a bode plot/amplitude response of an amplifier?
kindly
Calvin
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Hi,
does no one actually have an A to my Q from #3977? The sdsplus has undergone so much testing and reviewing, that I can't believe this point would have gone missed.
How can one measure (or activate the 'measure' function) LF UF and BW doing a bode plot/amplitude response of an amplifier?
kindly
Calvin
Here is one example how it works. Very simple LP and HP (RC) filters cascaded.
SDS2104X Plus
FW 1.5.2R2
Here I have used only 7 points/decade for also demonstrate how it interpolate between sample points for measurement. As can see LF -3dB point is between data point 7 and 8. But naturally interpolation here is only imagined truth. For more accuracy, use enough data points.
For bit more speed I have also turned AGC off (and adjusted suitable levels for Ref In and for DUT In. (Two channel method with amplitude offset but freq. tracking without offset. SDG1000X), for get pass band top for 0dB -- only just for fun.
SDG Ch1 to oscilloscope Ch1 and SDG Ch2 to DUT in and DUT out to oscilloscope Ch2)
Note: Amplitude Mode need be Vout/Vin. Unfortunately, at least for now, it doesn't work in Vout mode. It only works in Vout/Vin mode.
Also there need be enough room before LF and after UF.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1717964;image)
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Hi,
Thanks alot. Vout/Vin did the job.
I was quite shure though I had checked with Vout/Vin setting before wo success.
regrads
Calvin
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Whoever can crack the scrolling mode will automatically change the storage depth to 2M.
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Can someone explain to me the difference between "Count Limit" and "AIM Limit" ?
Siglent user manual say nothing about this. Teledyne user manual is also silent.
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Can someone explain to me the difference between "Count Limit" and "AIM Limit" ?
Siglent user manual say nothing about this. Teledyne user manual is also silent.
https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2022/05/SDS2000X_HD_UserManual_EN01A.pdf (https://www.siglenteu.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2022/05/SDS2000X_HD_UserManual_EN01A.pdf)
Page 174...
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Hi,
A colleague showed me an interesting thing today.
He measured 16Khz at a test point, the measurement parameter at the bottom and the counter at the top right showed 16khz.
But then he changed the test point and measured 3.66Mhz(expected value) - But the counter shows 16Khz.
When changing, before touching the test point, the counter was "zero".
Any ideas?
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@Martin72
From my experience the upper frequency counter is somewhat dependent on proper triggering. And the trigger in your screenshot is set to HF rejection (HFR).
I just tested with the internal AWG at 3.68 MHz an trigger set to HFR and get about 50 Hz at the top display and the correct 3.68 MHz at the lower display. With triggering set to AC, DC or LFR both counters display the correct value.
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Ah,
Didn´t saw this, could be the solution, thank you.
And ah, the second, now I know what he´s talking about, he had problems to trigger the signal.
He used the scope for the very first time (senior EE in retirement) and otherwise found it good, only the trigger.... :D
Will have a look on it tomorrow, normally he musn´t use the HFR.
Today I got the "permission" to order scope 4-6.... 8)
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Is the time-base on these user tweakable?
Mine appears to be a little out of spec (of by 19Hz @ 10MHz = 1.9ppm). It's not really a big deal, but if I can tweak it to match everything else I have it would be :-+ :-+
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Hello, my oscilloscope model is SDS2034. The serial number calculated by this program cannot be used. Is there a program that can be used for the SDS2000 model
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Hello, my oscilloscope model is SDS2034. The serial number calculated by this program cannot be used. Is there a program that can be used for the SDS2000 model
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Hello, my oscilloscope model is SDS2034. The serial number calculated by this program cannot be used. Is there a program that can be used for the SDS2000 model
Welcome to the forum.
There is no such model.
Exactly what are your requirements ?
If yours is a model before X series here are threads you need study:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000-new-v2-firmware/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000-new-v2-firmware/)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-hack/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-hack/)
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Thank you very much for your reply. I believe that the old version without X has been upgraded to v2 version, but the serial number calculated by using the crack software with X is not correct
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I want to turn on the decoding and signal generator functions of this oscilloscope to get the correct accessory serial number
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Number 4, 5 and 6 arrived... ;) 8)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1739579;image)
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Number 4, 5 and 6 arrived... ;) 8)
Will you be replacing Rob? :-//
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No, it´s only for working, not reselling.
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I saw a joke earlier in this thread about screen protectors and bubbles. Just received my scope from Saelig and I removed the screen film installed at the factory that had a red tab and said remove before use. However, my screen seems to have another film installed on it and in this one I have bubbles.
Is there a second protective film that needs to be removed or do I have an issue with my screen?
See photos. Scope is brand new just opened.
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Hi,
Actually, there is only a protective film... ???
In our last week newly arrived scopes was also only one folie present, after peeling off the screens look normal, without residues. :-//
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I saw a joke earlier in this thread about screen protectors and bubbles. Just received my scope from Saelig and I removed the screen film installed at the factory that had a red tab and said remove before use. However, my screen seems to have another film installed on it and in this one I have bubbles.
Is there a second protective film that needs to be removed or do I have an issue with my screen?
See photos. Scope is brand new just opened.
Maybe 2 were installed by error. :-//
There is matt glass underneath so at the edge of the display use a spudger tool or similar to get under the remaining film to remove it.
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I saw a joke earlier in this thread about screen protectors and bubbles. Just received my scope from Saelig and I removed the screen film installed at the factory that had a red tab and said remove before use. However, my screen seems to have another film installed on it and in this one I have bubbles.
Is there a second protective film that needs to be removed or do I have an issue with my screen?
See photos. Scope is brand new just opened.
I received my in middle of 12/2022 and it had the same issue. At first I thought it’s defective display, but shortly I realized it’s 2nd layer.
I used toothpick to remove it.
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Thank you Martin72, tautech, and MarkusAJ for the replies. I’ll try to remove it.
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Hmm, mine had only one. I suppose it's possible that 2 got put on there.
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I have one of these devices as well (SDS2104X Plus). But now it just stopped refusing to boot and just hangs after doing a bunch of self tests at the SIGLENT logo. (If you are curious, youtube video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVY3f71_IiQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVY3f71_IiQ))
Is there any reset everything or safe boot, these devices support or should I just send it back for warranty?
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Shutdown the scope and on next boot keep pressing Math button quickly and persistently...
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Shutdown the scope and on next boot keep pressing Math button quickly and persistently...
Thanks that helped! :)
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Shutdown the scope and on next boot keep pressing Math button quickly and persistently...
Thanks that helped! :)
I've only heard of this with older firmware.
Please ensure firmware is up to date from here:
https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=53
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When comparing the 10MHz output of my reference GPSDO to my
SDS2042X Plus SDS2104X Plus, there is a significant frequency deviation.
Is there a way to "tune" the internal reference oscillator of the SDS2000X Plus (similar to the DAC-value for the VCO in a SDG2122X)?
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Pics please...
Can´t be said enogh.
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When comparing the 10MHz output of my reference GPSDO to my SDS2042X Plus, there is a significant frequency deviation.
Is there a way to "tune" the internal reference oscillator of the SDS2000X Plus (similar to the DAC-value for the VCO in a SDG2122X)?
Significant? Mine is off by about 3Hz once warmed up. What is significant?
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SDS2000X Plus Series Firmware Update:
Version： V1.5.2R3
2023-03-28
Release notes:
1. Fixed an issue on the production line
Version： V1.5.2R2
2022-12-22
Release notes:
1. Fixed a calibration bug only existing on Rev.G hardware (06-xx).
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Oscilloscope/SDS2000X%20Plus_V1.5.2R3_EN.zip
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When comparing the 10MHz output of my reference GPSDO to my SDS2042X Plus, there is a significant frequency deviation.
Is there a way to "tune" the internal reference oscillator of the SDS2000X Plus (similar to the DAC-value for the VCO in a SDG2122X)?
Significant? Mine is off by about 3Hz once warmed up. What is significant?
It's off by about 1 Hz which for my applications is significant.
However... no matter how much off it is, the question is if there is a way to calibrate it or not.
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When comparing the 10MHz output of my reference GPSDO to my SDS2042X Plus, there is a significant frequency deviation.
Is there a way to "tune" the internal reference oscillator of the SDS2000X Plus (similar to the DAC-value for the VCO in a SDG2122X)?
SDS2042X Plus? Are you mixing model numbers? Assuming you are referring to an SDS2104X Plus or one of its siblings, is the discrepancy between your GPSDO and the output of the built-in AWG, the hardware frequency counter or the screen display frequency counter? Or something else? I'm not aware of any way to adjust any of those in any case and the scope does not have an external clock input. I doubt any model without an external clock in will give you precision better than 0.1ppm.
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SDS2042X Plus? Are you mixing model numbers? Assuming you are referring to an SDS2104X Plus or one of its siblings, is the discrepancy between your GPSDO and the output of the built-in AWG, the hardware frequency counter or the screen display frequency counter? Or something else? I'm not aware of any way to adjust any of those in any case and the scope does not have an external clock input. I doubt any model without an external clock in will give you precision better than 0.1ppm.
Sorry, you are right... I mean the SDS2104X Plus - not the SDS2042X Plus.
I assume they use the same clock source for the scope and the AWG since both show the same deviation.
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I assume they use the same clock source for the scope and the AWG since both show the same deviation.
So, if you feed the AWG into the scope 10MHz shows as 10MHZ right on?
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So, if you feed the AWG into the scope 10MHz shows as 10MHZ right on?
Correct.
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Dave did a teardown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxzQS-Bn2R0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxzQS-Bn2R0)
I don't see anything that is tweakable with a screwdriver.
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So, if you feed the AWG into the scope 10MHz shows as 10MHZ right on?
Correct.
If I may ask, what application is that? That needs better than 100ppb timebase accuracy on a scope?
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I don't see anything that is tweakable with a screwdriver.
Not likely to have a trimpot, but it may have a DAC/VCTCXO combo like the SDG2000 series that is used during initial setup and perhaps there is even a calibration routine for it that we just don't know about or have the commands for. I doubt you could count on its mid-term stability to be better than 0.1ppm though, so I'm not sure how much closer you could get.
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Can somebody confirm that the lowest start/stop frequencies for Bode plots on the SDS2000X Plus series are:
Start = 10 Hz
Stop = 510 Hz
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Can somebody confirm that the lowest start/stop frequencies for Bode plots on the SDS2000X Plus series are:
Start = 10 Hz
Stop = 510 Hz
Stop frequency = highest your AWG can provide up to 120 MHz max.
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Stop frequency = highest your AWG can provide up to 120 MHz max.
The lowest possible frequencies, not the highest are in question.
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Stop frequency = highest your AWG can provide up to 120 MHz max.
The lowest possible frequencies, not the highest are in question.
Start = lowest.
Stop = highest.
This is used for Bode plot and analysers universally. Stop = highest.
What do you need to know ?
Start to Stop = a frequency sweep.
Edit to add:
From the datasheet:
Bode Plot
Frequency Mode: Linear, Logarithmic
Range: 10 Hz ~ 120 MHz
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Can somebody confirm that the lowest start/stop frequencies for Bode plots on the SDS2000X Plus series are:
Start = 10 Hz
Stop = 510 Hz
You can create scan from 10Hz to 510 Hz.
Actually, min span of scan is 500Hz.
So 10-510Hz or 2000-2500Hz etc..
You cannot create scan from 10Hz to 20Hz if that is what you need.
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I have to say that i really don't like the wobbly cheap feeling of all of the rotary knobs on the SDS2000X Plus series.
If it feels like that after 5 years of constant use it would be "ok" but as a brand new unit it is simply not acceptable.
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I have to say that i really don't like the wobbly cheap feeling of all of the rotary knobs on the SDS2000X Plus series.
If it feels like that after 5 years of constant use it would be "ok" but as a brand new unit it is simply not acceptable.
So maybe use of a mouse is a good idea? You barely touch the scope when this little device is attached.
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I have to say that i really don't like the wobbly cheap feeling of all of the rotary knobs on the SDS2000X Plus series.
If it feels like that after 5 years of constant use it would be "ok" but as a brand new unit it is simply not acceptable.
Not seen a single encoder failure in any Siglent equipment, maybe I just haven't sold enough 1000's of them. :-//
I have to say that i really don't like the wobbly cheap feeling of all of the rotary knobs on the SDS2000X Plus series.
If it feels like that after 5 years of constant use it would be "ok" but as a brand new unit it is simply not acceptable.
So maybe use of a mouse is a good idea? You barely touch the scope when this little device is attached.
This and a keyboard too !
While the UI is pretty good in these I have asked for improvements with use of the scroll wheel rather than a click and drag in menu lists.
A couple nights back while taking lots of detailed screenshots for a customer in another Siglent product, rather than with the mouse selecting letters and upper/lower uppercase for file names I used a cheap wireless keyboard instead which like a mouse in theses scopes really speeds the job up for many tasks.
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The SDS2000X PLUS seems to have a common issue where the baseline is slanted in the first 2ms without a probe connected. The first three images are from my oscilloscope, and the last image is from a reply on page 147, #3660, which appears to have the same problem. Is this the case for everyone?
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The SDS2000X PLUS seems to have a common issue where the baseline is slanted in the first 2ms without a probe connected. The first three images are from my oscilloscope, and the last image is from a reply on page 147, #3360, which appears to have the same problem. Is this the case for everyone?
Welcome to the forum.
Please state SW and HW versions from the Sys Info page.
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The SDS2000X PLUS seems to have a common issue where the baseline is slanted in the first 2ms without a probe connected. The first three images are from my oscilloscope, and the last image is from a reply on page 147, #3360, which appears to have the same problem. Is this the case for everyone?
This is well known.
Afaik there is coming FW solution for solve this in some HW versions where this exist. (time table unknown now)
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Thank you very much,It was purchased this year, and the system information is as follows:
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Thank you, and forgive me for not reading the previous discussion carefully.
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The SDS2000X PLUS seems to have a common issue where the baseline is slanted in the first 2ms without a probe connected. Is this the case for everyone?
Pics from one of our scopes today, bought in the last year.
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Pics from one of our scopes today, bought in the last year.
Thank you, Martin. Will the 200us time base appear? Or try to trigger the level to be far from the baseline.
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For what I know, this problem has been found in HW 05. HW 02 most definitely doesn't have a problem.
As rf-loop already stated, there will be a solution in the next firmware.
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The SDS2000X PLUS seems to have a common issue where the baseline is slanted in the first 2ms without a probe connected. The first three images are from my oscilloscope, and the last image is from a reply on page 147, #3660, which appears to have the same problem. Is this the case for everyone?
我是20年才出的时候买的，硬件版本是02 00，从没遇到过这个问题。应该就是新版本硬件的关系，官网152R2固件说修复了更新的06XX硬件的线粗问题，你都是最新的152R3固件了，看来你这个问题还没有修复哦。不过鼎阳固件更新挺快的，等等看吧
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The SDS2000X PLUS seems to have a common issue where the baseline is slanted in the first 2ms without a probe connected. The first three images are from my oscilloscope, and the last image is from a reply on page 147, #3660, which appears to have the same problem. Is this the case for everyone?
我是20年才出的时候买的，硬件版本是02 00，从没遇到过这个问题。应该就是新版本硬件的关系，官网152R2固件说修复了更新的06XX硬件的线粗问题，你都是最新的152R3固件了，看来你这个问题还没有修复哦。不过鼎阳固件更新挺快的，等等看吧
translated: "I bought it when it was released in 2020. The hardware version is 02 00. I have never encountered this problem. It should be related to the new version of hardware. The 152R2 firmware on the official website said that the line thickness problem of the updated 06XX hardware has been fixed. You are all the latest 152R3 firmware. It seems that your problem has not been fixed yet. But Dingyang firmware update is very fast, wait and see"
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This is a small bug. Anyway, thank you for your answers. ;D
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Seems like Doom runs quite well on the Rigol MSO5000-series, but what about on the SDS2000X Plus? :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dHbGTSPTGg&t=162s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dHbGTSPTGg&t=162s)
You can use a Mouse & Keyboard with Siglent scopes, so that should in theory make it more easy to play.
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The SDS2000X Plus series has 1MΩ/50Ω selectable inputs and FFT functionality. I have an D-130 antenna (https://www.diamond-ant.co.jp/english/amateur/antenna/ante_6dis.html) connected to the 50Ω input of my old HP 8591E (https://www.testequipmenthq.com/datasheets/Keysight-8591E-Datasheet.pdf) Spectrum Analyzer. Can I use an SDS2000X Plus scope in similar manner to a dedicated spectrum analyzer by switching the input to 50Ω and then connecting my antenna and running the FFT to show me an on-screen display similar to my HP8591E? (For example, on my HP, I can press the button of a say a 303.875MHz RF transmitter and see that on the scope, and I can then zoom in on that frequency and limit the horizontal display range to 10MHz, 1MHz, 100kHz, etc. Wonderfing what's possible on the Siglent when using FFT an a 50Ω antenna.)
Thanks.
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The SDS2000X Plus series has 1MΩ/50Ω selectable inputs and FFT functionality. I have an D-130 antenna (https://www.diamond-ant.co.jp/english/amateur/antenna/ante_6dis.html) connected to the 50Ω input of my old HP 8591E (https://www.testequipmenthq.com/datasheets/Keysight-8591E-Datasheet.pdf) Spectrum Analyzer. Can I use an SDS2000X Plus scope in similar manner to a dedicated spectrum analyzer by switching the input to 50Ω and then connecting my antenna and running the FFT to show me an on-screen display similar to my HP8591E? (For example, on my HP, I can press the button of a say a 303.875MHz RF transmitter and see that on the scope, and I can then zoom in on that frequency and limit the horizontal display range to 10MHz, 1MHz, 100kHz, etc. Wonderfing what's possible on the Siglent when using FFT an a 50Ω antenna.)
Short answer: yes, you can do it within the bandwidth of the DSO (max. 500 MHz).
Slightly longer answer: for achieving the best results, the setup of the DSO is a little more involved as that of an SA. To learn about the basics of FFT in a modern Siglent DSO, you can study the corresponding chapters of my review of the SDS1104X-E. This scope doesn't have internal 50 ohms termination, but an external through terminator does the job for lower bandwidths like this. The article also contains some examples, including a broadcast overview of the FM radio band:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371782/#msg1371782 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371782/#msg1371782)
Of course, this is a bit outdated by now and additional tools and features have been added even to the low end SDS1004X-E series since then. For example, the setup is a bit easier now, because we can choose any FFT length independently, as long as it is not longer than the record length. Consequently, all the extensive tables in the article have become meaningless by now.
Because of this, the basic setup for a contemporary Siglent DSO is better described in the following post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtb2002-vs-siglent-sds2104x-plus/msg3239832/#msg3239832 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rohde-schwarz-rtb2002-vs-siglent-sds2104x-plus/msg3239832/#msg3239832)
Compared to the HP8591 the bandwidth is lower of course, but the potential RBW can be narrower. For analyzing the modulation spectra at higher frequencies, the max. FFT length of 2 Mpts might be insufficient, but for an exclusive signal, as from a nearby transmitter, we can always resort to undersampling as demonstrated in the following post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-hd-12bit-(published-for-chinese-domestic-market-only)/msg4320658/#msg4320658 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-hd-12bit-(published-for-chinese-domestic-market-only)/msg4320658/#msg4320658)
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...you can study the corresponding chapters of my review of the SDS1104X-E. This scope doesn't have internal 50 ohms termination, but an external through terminator does the job for lower bandwidths like this.
Thank you, but just to clarify, the Siglent SDS2104X Plus, according to page 27 of the User Manual (https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/user/SDS2000X/SDS2000X_UserManual_UM0102X-E02B.pdf), has switchable 1MΩ or 50Ω impedance for the inputs. As such, no adapter should be needed for that model scope.
-
Of course, all Siglent scopes of the 2000 series and up have switchable 50 ohms input termination.
I just wanted to make it clear that this is no prerequisite for using the scope as an RF spectrum analyzer - at least not up to some100 MHz, where an external pass through terminator gives still usable results. Because of the input cpacitance of the 1 megohm input, we get an increasingly bad SWR at higher frequencies.
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NEW PROMOTION
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-68.html
All models purchased from May 1 until October 31 2023.
FREE BW upgrade to next model:
SDS2104X Plus > SDS2204X Plus, SDS2204X Plus > SDS2354X Plus, SDS2354X Plus > SDS2504X Plus
Enquire at your dealer.
-
I played around with my new SDS2000X Plus for a couple of days now and I'm really impressed. There are still a few things that are not obvious to me, like the PP215 probes or especially the stuff that gets shipped with the probes.
There are two yellow "locating sleeves". I know them from an unbranded chinese probe set that i own. But other than the unbranded probes, I cannot fit the sleeves onto the probe and have the tip poking through. Either the tip is too short or I cannot put the sleeve far enough down.
I have 4 probes and thus eight of these sleeves. No combination works.
The sleeves from the other set of probes would almost fit. The tip pokes through just the right amount, but they are too wide and slip off the PP215.
Am I missing something or are these sleeves some kind of joke?
[attachimg=1]
-
NEW PROMOTION
All models purchased from May 1 until October 31 2023.
FREE BW upgrade to next model:
SDS2104X Plus > SDS2204X Plus, SDS2204X Plus > SDS2354X Plus, SDS2354X Plus > SDS2504X Plus
Enquire at your dealer.
No mention of that on TEquipment product pages:
https://www.tequipment.net/Siglent/SDS2104X-Plus/Digital-Oscilloscopes/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Siglent/SDS2104X-Plus/Digital-Oscilloscopes/)
Or must we email them to ask for that free BW upgrade? Or is it a limited promotion to select dealers?
But obviously, since there is a hack available, the best promotion is an outright discount, rather than a free BW upgrade. An exception to that would be if the free BW upgrade included a probe upgrade, to higher BW probes. For example, if I examine the SDS2204X Plus on TEquipment, it says it includes the same 200MHz probes that come with the SDS2104X Plus. So if one qualified for a mere BW upgrade alone and no probe upgrade, then you really wouldn't get a huge advantage because your 200MHz probes would limit the amplitude of the detectable waveforms. (Even at a 200MHz BW, the 200MHz probes are not ideal.)
-
But obviously, since there is a hack available, the best promotion is an outright discount, rather than a free BW upgrade. An exception to that would be if the free BW upgrade included a probe upgrade, to higher BW probes. For example, if I examine the SDS2204X Plus on TEquipment, it says it includes the same 200MHz probes that come with the SDS2104X Plus. So if one qualified for a mere BW upgrade alone and no probe upgrade, then you really wouldn't get a huge advantage because your 200MHz probes would limit the amplitude of the detectable waveforms. (Even at a 200MHz BW, the 200MHz probes are not ideal.)
Not everyone takes it for granted to get a feature-rich 500+ MHz DSO with huge memory for about $1300,- because of the hack. There are even folks (mainly the professionals), who forego the hack and pay regular prices. Unsurprisingly, any promotios are meant for these exclusively.
It is amazing how the misinformation about probes keeps floating around, spread by folks who quite obviously never measured the system performance of any scope/probe combination.
Once again I'd like to point to the information that can be found in an old but relevant thread, e.g. reply #191:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg3290546/#msg3290546 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg3290546/#msg3290546)
Base line:
- A passive high-Z probe isn't terribly useful for practical work at frequencies above 100 MHz, no matter what the bandwidth rating is.
- The bandwidth rating of a passive high-Z probe has little to do with its actual performance in combination with a certain scope.
- Even a cheap PP510 probe (100 MHz rated) has a +/-3 dB bandwidth of more than 500 MHz according to the industry standard test using a 25 ohm source
-
NEW PROMOTION
All models purchased from May 1 until October 31 2023.
FREE BW upgrade to next model:
SDS2104X Plus > SDS2204X Plus, SDS2204X Plus > SDS2354X Plus, SDS2354X Plus > SDS2504X Plus
Enquire at your dealer.
No mention of that on TEquipment product pages:
https://www.tequipment.net/Siglent/SDS2104X-Plus/Digital-Oscilloscopes/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Siglent/SDS2104X-Plus/Digital-Oscilloscopes/)
Or must we email them to ask for that free BW upgrade? Or is it a limited promotion to select dealers?
Yeah sorry the promo was hot off the press which was much better than spotting it days later on Siglent websites which previously had been the case. Maybe they listened last time I grumbled as in previous promos we had sold instruments only to then need to contact customers after the fact to offer the free options their purchase qualified for.
As it happens I got the promo announcement just before HQ went for CN Labor day hols of which I believe they will return from 4th May however it's not like the promo is for just a few days but until the end of October.
I imagine all worldwide distributors will be messaged this coming week so we should see details start appearing on websites then.
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It is amazing how the misinformation about probes keeps floating around, spread by folks who quite obviously never measured the system performance of any scope/probe combination.
PASSIVE probes don't merely stop at 500MHz, and for good reason. They also come in 700MHz variants...
https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RT-ZP11/Standard-/-Passive-Oscilloscope-Probes/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RT-ZP11/Standard-/-Passive-Oscilloscope-Probes/)
https://youtu.be/txPxo4TA0i4?t=406 (https://youtu.be/txPxo4TA0i4?t=406)
And even 1GHz variants...
https://download.tek.com/datasheet/TPP1000-TPP0500B-TPP0502-TPP0250-Passive-Voltage-Probe-Datasheet-51W261519.pdf (https://download.tek.com/datasheet/TPP1000-TPP0500B-TPP0502-TPP0250-Passive-Voltage-Probe-Datasheet-51W261519.pdf)
https://youtu.be/1xicZF9glH0?t=195 (https://youtu.be/1xicZF9glH0?t=195)
So when you say, "A passive high-Z probe isn't terribly useful for practical work at frequencies above 100 MHz, no matter what the bandwidth rating is", that statement seems to knock Dave for using his "not terribly useful" TEK 1GHz PASSIVE probes.
Taking your words deeper, it seems you are basically saying this: "Stop worrying about the probe MHz rating because they are passive probes and therefore are not terribly useful for practical work at frequencies above 100MHz. Be they 100MHz, 200MHz, 350MHz, 500MHz, 700MHz, or 1GHz passive probes, those differences don't matter -- they aren't so useful above 100MHz."
Seriously?
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Yeah, considering the premium you pay for faster probes (over $900 for the Tek P6139B) it does seems a little silly to say passive probes are useless above 100MHz. I know my 500MHz scope benefits from using 500MHz probes over 100MHz probes. The difference is immediately obvious.
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It is amazing how the misinformation about probes keeps floating around, spread by folks who quite obviously never measured the system performance of any scope/probe combination.
PASSIVE probes don't merely stop at 500MHz, and for good reason. They also come in 700MHz variants...
https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RT-ZP11/Standard-/-Passive-Oscilloscope-Probes/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RT-ZP11/Standard-/-Passive-Oscilloscope-Probes/)
https://youtu.be/txPxo4TA0i4?t=406 (https://youtu.be/txPxo4TA0i4?t=406)
Taking your words deeper, it seems you are basically saying this: "Stop worrying about the probe MHz rating because they are passive probes and therefore are not terribly useful for practical work at frequencies above 100MHz. Be they 100MHz, 200MHz, 350MHz, 500MHz, 700MHz, or 1GHz passive probes, those differences don't matter -- they aren't so useful above 100MHz."
Seriously?
Yes seriously !
Even the pornograhic ::) probe Dave showed loads the DUT 9.5pf < a significant amount for some circuits.
However passive probes are the everyday tool but you need understand their limitations. ;)
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Even the pornograhic ::) probe Dave showed loads the DUT 9.5pf < a significant amount for some circuits.
However passive probes are the everyday tool but you need understand their limitations. ;)
Well, my P6139 probes are only 8pF (measured too), so there. :box:
But seriously, there a lot of cases where 8pF is not going to make a huge difference. Much less of a difference than 14-16pF like most 100MHz probes.
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Even the pornograhic ::) probe Dave showed loads the DUT 9.5pf < a significant amount for some circuits.
However passive probes are the everyday tool but you need understand their limitations. ;)
Well, my P6139 probes are only 8pF (measured too), so there. :box:
But seriously, there a lot of cases where 8pF is not going to make a huge difference. Much less of a difference than 14-16pF like most 100MHz probes.
Agreed.
However why do all the main brands also offer active probes ?
Most offer high BW and extremely low input capacitance of 2pf or less < there are valid test cases where this matters.
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Agreed.
However why do all the main brands also offer active probes ?
Most offer high BW and extremely low input capacitance of 2pf or less < there are valid test cases where this matters.
Of course they are better. And in many cases cost more than the scope. But when they are what you need, they are indispensable. The lowest frequency one I think are about 750MHz, like the P6205. 2pF and can be had in good condition for about $200. But for hobbyist scopes, you also need to spring for a power supply for them. The best I was able to do in my research was about $700 for two P6205s and the requisite PS. However, like the dumb toad I am, I waited too long and must now begin my search again..
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Youtube-->Search Passive Probes Oscilloscope-->Keysight videos e.g. Probe pitfalls, difference between active and passive, system bandwith (scope and probe) and so on...
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Because this thread is primarily focused on the Siglent SDS2000X Plus, I would simply like to reiterate what I said in my earlier post. If you are buying a 200 MHz scope that comes with 200 MHz probes, because those passive probes are not really ideal for the 200 MHz bandwith that scope anyway – they really should be 350 MHz or higher for a 200 MHz scope — if you merely get a free bandwidth upgrade to 350 MHz, those passive probes will become an even more limiting factor and somewhat nullify the benefits inherent to that scope BW upgrade.
In other words, my argument is that a scope bandwidth upgrade alone is insufficient if you’re not also going to upgrade the probes.
Please don’t take this as an excessive criticism of the bandwith upgrade. I simply wish to say that in light of that fact, a rebate/discount would be better than a scope bandwidth upgrade if you’re not also going to upgrade the probes. And that remains true regardless of whether some people come along and say all passive probes are vastly inferior to often prohibitively expensive active probes!
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I played around with my new SDS2000X Plus for a couple of days now and I'm really impressed. There are still a few things that are not obvious to me, like the PP215 probes or especially the stuff that gets shipped with the probes.
There are two yellow "locating sleeves". I know them from an unbranded chinese probe set that i own. But other than the unbranded probes, I cannot fit the sleeves onto the probe and have the tip poking through. Either the tip is too short or I cannot put the sleeve far enough down.
I have 4 probes and thus eight of these sleeves. No combination works.
The sleeves from the other set of probes would almost fit. The tip pokes through just the right amount, but they are too wide and slip off the PP215.
Am I missing something or are these sleeves some kind of joke?
(Attachment Link)
Currently there's a QC/production issue with these from Siglent's probe supplier.
Contact your supplier for more probe accessory packs and have them check they will fit too !
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Currently there's a QC/production issue with these from Siglent's probe supplier.
Contact your supplier for more probe accessory packs and have them check they will fit too !
That is troubling information.
So what you’re saying is, if we intend to buy a 2000X Plus series scope from TEquipment, we need to ask them to open the scope and open the probe bags and fit all of the tiny parts to the probe to make sure there’s no issue before they ship to us? That’s especially important for those of us who live outside the US but who still may wish to buy from Tequipment.
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Because this thread is primarily focused on the Siglent SDS2000X Plus, I would simply like to reiterate what I said in my earlier post. If you are buying a 200 MHz scope that comes with 200 MHz probes, because those passive probes are not really ideal for the 200 MHz bandwith that scope anyway – they really should be 350 MHz or higher for a 200 MHz scope — if you merely get a free bandwidth upgrade to 350 MHz, those passive probes will become an even more limiting factor and somewhat nullify the benefits inherent to that scope BW upgrade.
In other words, my argument is that a scope bandwidth upgrade alone is insufficient if you’re not also going to upgrade the probes.
Please don’t take this as an excessive criticism of the bandwith upgrade. I simply wish to say that in light of that fact, a rebate/discount would be better than a scope bandwidth upgrade if you’re not also going to upgrade the probes. And that remains true regardless of whether some people come along and say all passive probes are vastly inferior to often prohibitively expensive active probes!
Maybe you sentiment is true if you are buying aftermarket probes. As for companies like Siglent, Rigol and guy's like Tek a Keysight, they take the entire system into account. So, if any of them supply a such-and-such probe with their such-and-such scope, it's because they will deliver their sated performance when used as a complete system.
However, that said, I think you will get more mileage from a free BW upgrade than you think, even given the stock probes. From my perspective, I think it's kinda cute they offer this as surely they know anyone with a modicum of knowledge can get any BW available if they spend 10 minutes in the effort.
But yeah, a discount would be much better. And they did have one before Christmas. A considerable one (like $400). I guess the old expression "you snooze, you lose" applies.
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Currently there's a QC/production issue with these from Siglent's probe supplier.
Contact your supplier for more probe accessory packs and have them check they will fit too !
That is troubling information.
Yep and factual.
I've let Siglent a couple weeks back know their probe supplier is letting them down. ::)
So what you’re saying is, if we intend to buy a 2000X Plus series scope from TEquipment, we need to ask them to open the scope and open the probe bags and fit all of the tiny parts to the probe to make sure there’s no issue before they ship to us? That’s especially important for those of us who live outside the US but who still may wish to buy from Tequipment.
Why not source locally in Japan from Wavecrest ?
http://wavecrestkk.co.jp/sl/ (http://wavecrestkk.co.jp/sl/)
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I guess the old expression "you snooze, you lose" applies.
In my case, that old expression doesn’t apply because I didn’t even know about the Siglent 2000X PLUS series until this year, well after that significant discount was long gone. If they still offered that discount today, I would get one in a heartbeat. A free bandwidth upgrade is utterly inadequate to compel me to make a purchase. And I say that while fully recognizing the 2000X Plus series offers the best value of all scopes in that price class.
I don’t say this to criticize. I say it in hopes of seeing another significant discount like that again in the near future. Perhaps unlikely when considering the last major discount happened only a few short months ago, but one can still hope.
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I guess the old expression "you snooze, you lose" applies.
In my case, that old expression doesn’t apply because I didn’t even know about the Siglent 2000X PLUS series until this year, well after that significant discount was long gone. If they still offered that discount today, I would get one in a heartbeat. A free bandwidth upgrade is utterly inadequate to compel me to make a purchase. And I say that while fully recognizing the 2000X Plus series offers the best value of all scopes in that price class.
I don’t say this to criticize. I say it in hopes of seeing another significant discount like that again in the near future. Perhaps unlikely when considering the last major discount happened only a few short months ago, but one can still hope.
Hang in there. Siglent offer promotions almost continuously. But to be honest, their stuff is very much worth the regular asking price. I bought six instruments from them in the last year and only got two of those on discounts and I'm not a bit disappointed with any of the purchases. Keep your eye open though, something might come up before long.
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Why not source locally in Japan from Wavecrest ?
http://wavecrestkk.co.jp/sl/ (http://wavecrestkk.co.jp/sl/)
Siglent scope pricing here in Japan from authorized vendors is outrageously expensive. And that expensive price goes beyond the current exchange rate. Admittedly, the higher pricing here is often the result of all of the time and expense required to translate everything to Japanese and offer Japanese support. But I require neither, so I would prefer the product to be discounted accordingly.
On top of that, I doubt that the Japanese Siglent vendors offer significant discounts to the level of the one that took place this past December. That’s been my experience living in Japan for the past 29 years. In many cases, the discounts that appear everywhere else in the world outside Japan never appear here.
Price matters.
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Price matters.
Does Japan charge duties on imported electronic test equipment? Most countries have an agreement on no duties on electronic equipment, but I don't know about Japan.
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Price matters.
Does Japan charge duties on imported electronic test equipment? Most countries have an agreement on no duties on electronic equipment, but I don't know about Japan.
Yes this.
It's very likely Japan by way of import tariffs support their local products.
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Japan will tax pretty much everything imported at a 10% rate if the value is over 10000 Yen, unless it is sent as a gift.
But even on the US customs and border control website it says pretty much the same, that anything under US$100 probably won’t be taxed but anything over that probably will be. Whether something is marked as merchandise or a gift probably plays a role as well, although it’s not clear.
It’s interesting how Chinese companies get around this by shipping things with a near zero valuation.
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Japan will tax pretty much everything imported at a 10% rate if the value is over 10000 Yen, unless it is sent as a gift.
But even on the US customs and border control website it says pretty much the same, that anything under US$100 probably won’t be taxed but anything over that probably will be. Whether something is marked as merchandise or a gift probably plays a role as well, although it’s not clear.
It’s interesting how Chinese companies get around this by shipping things with a near zero valuation.
You really need check Japan tariff legislation before saying such. Eg, Siglent had reduced margins in the US as a result of Trump Asian bashing laws.
Here in NZ as there are no instruments produced here a zero tarif is in force when I registered for an import license.
The devil is in the detail. ;)
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Why not source locally in Japan from Wavecrest ?
http://wavecrestkk.co.jp/sl/ (http://wavecrestkk.co.jp/sl/)
Siglent scope pricing here in Japan from authorized vendors is outrageously expensive. And that expensive price goes beyond the current exchange rate. Admittedly, the higher pricing here is often the result of all of the time and expense required to translate everything to Japanese and offer Japanese support. But I require neither, so I would prefer the product to be discounted accordingly.
On top of that, I doubt that the Japanese Siglent vendors offer significant discounts to the level of the one that took place this past December. That’s been my experience living in Japan for the past 29 years. In many cases, the discounts that appear everywhere else in the world outside Japan never appear here.
Price matters.
That was a worldwide price reduction including the optional decodes for free. It lasted some 3 months.
All distributors had to comply.
Still, your local distributor will not look favorably at warranty for an instrument sourced offshore and some will flatly refuse to help < something you might want to consider.
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Still, your local distributor will not look favorably at warranty for an instrument sourced offshore and some will flatly refuse to help < something you might want to consider.
This is the real consideration.
On other topics .. The US (and Canada) do usually turn a blind eye to items of a smaller cost, but that's only reasonable. If they had to scrutinize every item that crossed the border they would be loosing money. However, I know for sure neither Canada or the US charge tariffs on electronics.
What an odd place is this tiny planet.
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What I spoke of is not a tariff. It’s 10% sales tax.
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What I spoke of it’s not a tariff. It’s 10% sales tax.
We have 15% ! It's called GST > Goods and Services Tax but instead we mostly refer to is as Grab, Snatch and Take !
Tariffs are added into import costs and then GST also before any Customs clearance is given < no escaping it. :rant:
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It is amazing how the misinformation about probes keeps floating around, spread by folks who quite obviously never measured the system performance of any scope/probe combination.
PASSIVE probes don't merely stop at 500MHz, and for good reason. They also come in 700MHz variants...
https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RT-ZP11/Standard-/-Passive-Oscilloscope-Probes/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RT-ZP11/Standard-/-Passive-Oscilloscope-Probes/)
https://youtu.be/txPxo4TA0i4?t=406 (https://youtu.be/txPxo4TA0i4?t=406)
And even 1GHz variants...
https://download.tek.com/datasheet/TPP1000-TPP0500B-TPP0502-TPP0250-Passive-Voltage-Probe-Datasheet-51W261519.pdf (https://download.tek.com/datasheet/TPP1000-TPP0500B-TPP0502-TPP0250-Passive-Voltage-Probe-Datasheet-51W261519.pdf)
https://youtu.be/1xicZF9glH0?t=195 (https://youtu.be/1xicZF9glH0?t=195)
Where did I ever say the passive high-Z probes stop at 500 MHz?
I even demonstrated how the Siglent 500 MHz rated SP3050A probes perform well up to more than 1 GHz (when put to the industrial standard test):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2165488/#msg2165488 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2165488/#msg2165488)
So when you say, "A passive high-Z probe isn't terribly useful for practical work at frequencies above 100 MHz, no matter what the bandwidth rating is", that statement seems to knock Dave for using his "not terribly useful" TEK 1GHz PASSIVE probes.
Taking your words deeper, it seems you are basically saying this: "Stop worrying about the probe MHz rating because they are passive probes and therefore are not terribly useful for practical work at frequencies above 100MHz. Be they 100MHz, 200MHz, 350MHz, 500MHz, 700MHz, or 1GHz passive probes, those differences don't matter -- they aren't so useful above 100MHz."
Seriously?
Yes, seriously.
I should have added "x10 probes", but I thought this goes without saying.
Just do the math and calculate the impedance of your so called "high-Z" probe at 100 MHz – or even 500 MHz.
For those too lazy to do the math: Even at moderate 100 MHz and even a very low tip capacitance of only 10 pF would be just 160 ohms. Yes, the output of a fast line driver can handle that, but at the far end of an 120 ohm transmission line the loading effect will already be unacceptable, even at 100 MHz.
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Yeah, considering the premium you pay for faster probes (over $900 for the Tek P6139B) it does seems a little silly to say passive probes are useless above 100MHz.
You are a native speaker, aren't you? So you really think "not terribly useful" is the same as "useless"?
I know my 500MHz scope benefits from using 500MHz probes over 100MHz probes. The difference is immediately obvious.
I love such simple claims, without stating any conditions.
I never said that a 500 MHz probe cannot be better than a 100 MHz species. In the linked postings I've clearly explained (and demonstrated) why random scope/probe combinations might or might not work.
I have demonstrated that all serious passive probes work well up to several hundred MHz when the industry standard bandwidth test is performed, no matter what their bandwidth rating is. Above that we might see differences in favor of the more expensive probes, but that has little practical relevance, as the input capacitance is just too high to not affect the majority of measurements, which usually don't happen to be based on 25 ohm sources.
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Performa01,
I don't see the point of arguing further. I fail to see that you have contributed anything substantially useful to this discussion since my first post about wanting higher MHz rated passive probes with any scope BW upgrade. I stand by what I've said. Specifically...
Including 200MHz probes with a 200MHz scope will OF COURSE allow measurements at 200MHz, but it would be BETTER if the probes were rated higher than the BW of the scope. Therefore, if one seeks to purchase a 200MHz Siglent 2000X Plus with 200MHz rated passive probes solely because of the free BW upgrade, if you get an scope-only BW upgrade to 300MHz or 350MHz WITHOUT any probe upgrade, it's even less of a desirable situation than the stock 200MHz scope with the 200MHz passive probes. Will using 200MHz probes on a 350MHz scope make measurements impossible? No! Of course, not. But if you had the choice of 200MHz probes or 500MHz probes with a 200MHz or 350MHz scope, which would you choose? No doubt the higher 500MHz rated probes, assuming they are quality probes.
And is all I was trying to say.
But then you chimed earlier in with all manner of arguing that in no way whatsoever nullified the truthfulness and accuracy of what I said. Actually, you took out the verbal sledgehammer and started talk about my having spread MISINFORMATION. That was taking it a bit too far.
Again, I am ONLY talking casually about slightly better probes in light of a scope BW upgrade. I am not teaching a master class on the topic, nor do I feel such a master class is really necessary.
On some level I'm quite sorry I said anything at all about wanting better probes (in terms of their MHz rating) because my comment directly led to this back-and-forth that does not directly pertain to the thread topic of the Siglent 2000X Plus series scopes.
https://youtu.be/7-Yr1nQ3dFI
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Best bang for buck for the BW upgrade offer will be SDS2204X Plus to become the 350 MHz SDS2354X Plus which comes with fixed $75ea 10x SP2035A probes instead of the $39 PP215 probe.
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2022/08/Probe_List_008102022.pdf
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Performa01,
I don't see the point of arguing further. I fail to see that you have contributed anything substantially useful to this discussion since my first post about wanting higher MHz rated passive probes with any scope BW upgrade. I stand by what I've said. Specifically...
Including 200MHz probes with a 200MHz scope will OF COURSE allow measurements at 200MHz, but it would be BETTER if the probes were rated higher than the BW of the scope. Therefore, if one seeks to purchase a 200MHz Siglent 2000X Plus with 200MHz rated passive probes solely because of the free BW upgrade, if you get an scope-only BW upgrade to 300MHz or 350MHz WITHOUT any probe upgrade, it's even less of a desirable situation than the stock 200MHz scope with the 200MHz passive probes. Will using 200MHz probes on a 350MHz scope make measurements impossible? No! Of course, not. But if you had the choice of 200MHz probes or 500MHz probes with a 200MHz or 350MHz scope, which would you choose? No doubt the higher 500MHz rated probes, assuming they are quality probes.
And is all I was trying to say.
But then you chimed earlier in with all manner of arguing that in no way whatsoever nullified the truthfulness and accuracy of what I said. Actually, you took out the verbal sledgehammer and started talk about my having spread MISINFORMATION. That was taking it a bit too far.
Again, I am ONLY talking casually about slightly better probes in light of a scope BW upgrade. I am not teaching a master class on the topic, nor do I feel such a master class is really necessary.
On some level I'm quite sorry I said anything at all about wanting better probes (in terms of their MHz rating) because my comment directly led to this back-and-forth that does not directly pertain to the thread topic of the Siglent 2000X Plus series scopes.
https://youtu.be/7-Yr1nQ3dFI
All I can say that you should have read info on a link Performa included.
While passive probes have BW specification, in real life, your BW is going to be dominated by input capacitance. Period. Because physics.
If you look at some passive 500MHz probes, you will see that they will have slightly lower capacitance. That is going to be the difference.
If you take a 100MHz 200MHz and 350MHz probes with same input capacitance, performance will pretty much be exactly the same.
If you want better frequency BW but cannot go active probe route, a 50Ω 10x probe will give much better performance. Literally 450Ω resistor at the end of coax will be much less loading on a circuit and better signal fidelity than 350 USD Hi impedance active passive probe.
Hence, I don't recommend people to give 4x 350 USD for 500MHz 10x passive probes. It is literally waste of money. Get 100-200MHz probes with good quality and get the rest of the money together and get an active probe.
Biggest reason for buying 500MHz probes will be that they might be better quality, smaller, have better accessories and better ergonomy.
Master class about probing is always necessary. Most expensive scope and bad probing will give crap results guaranteed. If you understand probing you can get much better results with a 200Mhz scope than with a 1 GHz scope with bad probing while looking at 200 MHz signal.....
EDIT: Typo. Thanks swmcl
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What I spoke of is not a tariff. It’s 10% sales tax.
We pay 13%. I'm pretty sure there are not many places where you won't pay tax of some sort.
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Hi 2N3055,
You said, "If you want better frequency BW but cannot go active probe route, a 50Ω 10x probe will give much better performance. Literally 450Ω resistor at the end of coax will be much less loading on a circuit and better signal fidelity than 350 USD Hi impedance active probe."
I think you meant, "If you want better frequency BW but cannot go active probe route, a 50Ω 10x probe will give much better performance. Literally 450Ω resistor at the end of coax will be much less loading on a circuit and better signal fidelity than 350 USD Hi impedance passive probe."
Yes?
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The only active probe I can find is the SAP1000. This probe fits to the SDA5000 series of scopes only. Is this right ?
So 'because physics' it means one should not really bother with too much upgrading of bandwidth from say 200MHz on any scope ... Yes ?
What about active probes on 12-bit scopes or the SDS6000 series ?
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The only active probe I can find is the SAP1000.
Siglent currently have 3 active probes to 2.5 GHz, see here:
https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/probes/active-probes/
This probe fits to the SDA5000 series of scopes only. Is this right ?
No, also SDS6000A, SDS6000L and SDS7000A when it's forecast to be released later this year.
So 'because physics' it means one should not really bother with too much upgrading of bandwidth from say 200MHz on any scope ... Yes ?
We can introduce signals into a scope via BNC cables too. ;)
What about active probes on 12-bit scopes ?
Current models with their limited BW don't support the existing Siglent active probes.
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An option would be to find a Tektronix 1103 probe power supply and get some used Tek probes like the P6205.
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Hi 2N3055,
You said, "If you want better frequency BW but cannot go active probe route, a 50Ω 10x probe will give much better performance. Literally 450Ω resistor at the end of coax will be much less loading on a circuit and better signal fidelity than 350 USD Hi impedance active probe."
I think you meant, "If you want better frequency BW but cannot go active probe route, a 50Ω 10x probe will give much better performance. Literally 450Ω resistor at the end of coax will be much less loading on a circuit and better signal fidelity than 350 USD Hi impedance passive probe."
Yes?
Yes, thank you.. Edited..
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Promo link:
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-68.html
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Currently there's a QC/production issue with these from Siglent's probe supplier.
Contact your supplier for more probe accessory packs and have them check they will fit too !
7/8 of my locating sleeves were defective. I checked with TEquipment, but they weren't interested in providing support. I'll have to see if I can get Siglent to send replacements.
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After reading this message about bug fixes for the SDS6000A,
New firmware for SDS6000A models.
4.Fixed several bugs
DY-WTFK-202209237015: Zone trigger doesn’t work at some input frequencies
I wonder if the Zone Trigger Issue in the SDS2000X Plus as discussed here,
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4428769/#msg4428769 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4428769/#msg4428769) ),
will also be fixed ?
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I wonder if the Zone Trigger Issue in the SDS2000X Plus as discussed here,
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4428769/#msg4428769 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4428769/#msg4428769) ),
will also be fixed ?
I haven't purchased a 2000X Plus yet, so I am looking at it from a would-be buyer's prospective. I've watched just about every video on it. Seems like the best scope to buy in its class. However, I must say that the scope has been out long enough for the major bugs to have been fixed by firmware updates. To hear that such a fundamental feature is still largely broken makes me concerned that Siglent really doesn't care. Am I wrong?
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I wonder if the Zone Trigger Issue in the SDS2000X Plus as discussed here,
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4428769/#msg4428769 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4428769/#msg4428769) ),
will also be fixed ?
I haven't purchased a 2000X Plus yet, so I am looking at it from a would-be buyer's prospective. I've watched just about every video on it. Seems like the best scope to buy in its class. However, I must say that the scope has been out long enough for the major bugs to have been fixed by firmware updates. To hear that such a fundamental feature is still largely broken makes me concerned that Siglent really doesn't care. Am I wrong?
After seronday's reminder I immediately took it to the Siglent private forum after checking it hadn't been found by beta testers or reported previously. Why I didn't before, not sure but I may have been travelling.
They will fix it of which I'm 1000% confident.
If we get a beta version to check/test we can see what is fixed and sometimes weeks before public release.
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snip: To hear that such a fundamental feature is still largely broken makes me concerned that Siglent really doesn't care. Am I wrong?
I had times with my Siglents, where I wished for more support. Then I checked prices with Rohde & Schwarz and got reasonable again:
I'm happy, Siglent is taking the task to steer a mid flight height between cheap and triple or even higher priced premium instruments. And to provide some service and support for all, including the hobbyists. It's a difficult tast to allocate engineers to all the different requirements and often it's a problem to have sufficient development capabilities at all.
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After reading this message about bug fixes for the SDS6000A,
New firmware for SDS6000A models.
4.Fixed several bugs
DY-WTFK-202209237015: Zone trigger doesn’t work at some input frequencies
I wonder if the Zone Trigger Issue in the SDS2000X Plus as discussed here,
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4428769/#msg4428769 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg4428769/#msg4428769) ),
will also be fixed ?
Thanks, now an accepted bug with a bug ID.
Now we wait for new firmware. :popcorn:
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7/8 of my locating sleeves were defective. I checked with TEquipment, but they weren't interested in providing support. I'll have to see if I can get Siglent to send replacements.
I checked with my supplier (Batter Fly). They talked to Siglent and reported that they have agreed to send 4 spare sets of probe accessories that have been verified to fit for free. When I got the tracking number a day later, I immediately checked the status.
The status was "delivered at doorstep". :o
I went down to look - and IT WAS! 8)
I now have a complete set of fitting sleeves for my four probes. The replacement set were just 99% "complete" and there was a color ring missing in each, so I assume they grabbed some of their own. :-+
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Hi all,
I have a query about upgrading the software on my scope.
I upgraded it to 500 MHz when I first purchased it, but have never updated the firmware from its original version, which is 1.3.7R5.
It has FPGA Version 2020.09.23
UBoot OS Version 5.0
CPLD 03
Hardware 02-04.
What I'm unsure about is whether it can be updated further than version 1.3.9R6, or is that the hardware limit for this instrument? If it can go further, is it worth doing?
Thanks for your input.
Sarah.
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Hi all,
I have a query about upgrading the software on my scope.
I upgraded it to 500 MHz when I first purchased it, but have never updated the firmware from its original version, which is 1.3.7R5.
It has FPGA Version 2020.09.23
UBoot OS Version 5.0
CPLD 03
Hardware 02-04.
What I'm unsure about is whether it can be updated further than version 1.3.9R6, or is that the hardware limit for this instrument? If it can go further, is it worth doing?
Thanks for your input.
Sarah.
It's never an issue with Siglent equipment. ;)
Hell, I'll even provide a link to the latest version:
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Oscilloscope/SDS2000X%20Plus_V1.5.2R3_EN.zip
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What I'm unsure about is whether it can be updated further than version 1.3.9R6, or is that the hardware limit for this instrument? If it can go further, is it worth doing?
I had no issue doing the firmware update on my "improved" scope.
Since the improvement is done using valid license keys you can feel assured things will work fine for an FW update.
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Many thanks to you both. You've put my mind at rest.
Regards,
Sarah.
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My SDS purchase had similar reservations. Will a future upgrade disable the features added but not necessarily needed. I congratulate Siglent on their open upgradability. For this reason I stick with Siglent for most of my test equipment. When I purchased my SDS2354X+ I opted for the features I could not do without (BW, 4ch and better probes)... in the event a future upgrade made the extras go away. But I have enjoyed the convenience of the extras like not having to drag out the Saelig.
Pay for what you need or will make you a profit. Enjoy the rest.
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This is an unwarranted recurrent theme.
Siglent licenses that are generated with the (public and non-public) keygens are 100% equal to the "official" licenses. Not similar! They are exactly the same!
Regarding the current list of Siglent devices, Siglent will never "disable" any of those licenses because it would be disabling ALL licenses for all customers.
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Not similar! They are exactly the same!
Exactly this, nothing else.
I don't know where this misconception comes from, maybe people are irritated by the Rigol MSO5000 hack thread because you have to re-hack the scope after every update.
These are not "real" license keys, unlike the Siglent hack.
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In reply to a few that have asked for WiFi capability for these scopes....
In another thread member Peter_O pointed us to a TP-Link device used in Client mode with his SDS2000X Plus where it accesses any local WiFi access point and provides an isolated (secure) LAN and WiFi connection.
https://www.tp-link.com/us/home-networking/wifi-router/tl-wr902ac/ (https://www.tp-link.com/us/home-networking/wifi-router/tl-wr902ac/)
Scroll down to #4 Client mode.
Although it can be USB powered specs say 2A so what a scope USB port will think of that I'm unsure. :-//
Nevertheless one is on my shopping list to evaluate.....
-
In reply to a few that have asked for WiFi capability for these scopes....
In another thread member Peter_O pointed us to a TP-Link device used in Client mode with his SDS2000X Plus where it accesses any local WiFi access point and provides an isolated (secure) LAN and WiFi connection.
https://www.tp-link.com/us/home-networking/wifi-router/tl-wr902ac/ (https://www.tp-link.com/us/home-networking/wifi-router/tl-wr902ac/)
Scroll down to #4 Client mode.
Although it can be USB powered specs say 2A so what a scope USB port will think of that I'm unsure. :-//
Nevertheless one is on my shopping list to evaluate.....
Also MikroTik mAP Lite ..
-
In reply to a few that have asked for WiFi capability for these scopes....
In another thread member Peter_O pointed us to a TP-Link device used in Client mode with his SDS2000X Plus where it accesses any local WiFi access point and provides an isolated (secure) LAN and WiFi connection.
https://www.tp-link.com/us/home-networking/wifi-router/tl-wr902ac/ (https://www.tp-link.com/us/home-networking/wifi-router/tl-wr902ac/)
Scroll down to #4 Client mode.
Although it can be USB powered specs say 2A so what a scope USB port will think of that I'm unsure. :-//
Nevertheless one is on my shopping list to evaluate.....
Also MikroTik mAP Lite ..
There's a plethora of Ethernet to WiFi adapters available that should also work.
Even better would be a Mesh WiFi system, you can have a router right near the scope connecting back to the main router wirelessly (client or bridge mode etc.).
-
In reply to a few that have asked for WiFi capability for these scopes....
In another thread member Peter_O pointed us to a TP-Link device used in Client mode with his SDS2000X Plus where it accesses any local WiFi access point and provides an isolated (secure) LAN and WiFi connection.
https://www.tp-link.com/us/home-networking/wifi-router/tl-wr902ac/ (https://www.tp-link.com/us/home-networking/wifi-router/tl-wr902ac/)
Scroll down to #4 Client mode.
Although it can be USB powered specs say 2A so what a scope USB port will think of that I'm unsure. :-//
Nevertheless one is on my shopping list to evaluate.....
Also MikroTik mAP Lite ..
There's a plethora of Ethernet to WiFi adapters available that should also work.
Even better would be a Mesh WiFi system, you can have a router right near the scope connecting back to the main router wirelessly (client or bridge mode etc.).
Mikrotik comes with full RouterOS. It supports both way connections, repeater mode etc etc... Yes there are many devices that could be used. I just mentioned Mikrotik because I use it and can recommend it from personal experience and they are fully featured devices that support full set of features...
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Builtin wifi capability, even if via a USB dongle is something I would like to see in most devices. Not having an ethernet cable attached removes a possible ground loop and attractive path for surges during thunderstorms, and etc.
And yes, I know about single point grounding and can use a common point grounded local lab network switch. Wifi would still be better in this respect. I actually have an entire rack of gear on a common rack switch that I then have linked to the network via fiber just for these reasons.
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Builtin wifi capability, even if via a USB dongle is something I would like to see in most devices. Not having an ethernet cable attached removes a possible ground loop and attractive path for surges during thunderstorms, and etc.
The only potential for a ground loop over the ethernet cable is if your ethernet cable has a shielded plug. Using a regular cat6 cable with a plastic only plug will eliminate that possibility.
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I am referring to surge over a site that gets lightning struck or nearby to one. Any 2 cables from different parts of the building are a possible loop to ground and surge dissipation path. You are talking about common signaling ground loops. I am referring to something else entirely. That is why the most common thing to break in such events are things like network switches or ports of them (and modems and such in domestic environments).
That being said, I also prefer shielded runs to keep interference down. Everything in my personal lab is then on a fiber connected local room switch with common single point grounding together with the equipment power, or else connected via wifi.
Edit for typos.
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Sure, but lightning can jump across a room too. I suppose it's a good idea to keep the insurance bill paid on time. 😉
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This is also true. Lightning travels miles through the air and then hits nearby...yeah it's going where it wants. I just try to do what I can. Large surges are far more common than direct hits, and for those, there is plenty one can do.
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Builtin wifi capability, even if via a USB dongle is something I would like to see in most devices. Not having an ethernet cable attached removes a possible ground loop and attractive path for surges during thunderstorms, and etc.
Which IMO is the attractiveness of the TP link unit as it may be possible to power it from the scopes USB port......no ground loop !
Gunna get one to try.....
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Builtin wifi capability, even if via a USB dongle is something I would like to see in most devices. Not having an ethernet cable attached removes a possible ground loop and attractive path for surges during thunderstorms, and etc.
Which IMO is the attractiveness of the TP link unit as it may be possible to power it from the scopes USB port......no ground loop !
Gunna get one to try.....
I think I still have that TP dongle somewhere. Do you think they're going to add support for it at some point?
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Builtin wifi capability, even if via a USB dongle is something I would like to see in most devices. Not having an ethernet cable attached removes a possible ground loop and attractive path for surges during thunderstorms, and etc.
Which IMO is the attractiveness of the TP link unit as it may be possible to power it from the scopes USB port......no ground loop !
Gunna get one to try.....
I think I still have that TP dongle somewhere. Do you think they're going to add support for it at some point?
I don't expect so Josh.
At this time there is no discussion I have seen that indicates such.
If you consider the Siglent cost of the tiny TP Link USB dongle and then add the WiFi license cost vs a standalone solution like TL-WR902AC for just $40 on Amazon it's an amazingly cost effective WiFi connectivity solution.
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If the USB has enough power to run it, one can just velcro that to the back.
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I think I still have that TP dongle somewhere.
Plug it into the scope so not to lose it....it doesn't need be enabled but it's a good place to park it for it not to get lost.
Tiny little buggers they are.....
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If the USB has enough power to run it, one can just velcro that to the back.
Or use it to supply your bench LAN but then you'll need a switch too !
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I don't expect so Josh.
At this time there is no discussion I have seen that indicates such.
If you consider the Siglent cost of the tiny TP Link USB dongle and then add the WiFi license cost vs a standalone solution like TL-WR902AC for just $40 on Amazon it's an amazingly cost effective WiFi connectivity solution.
Sometimes, "improvements" are free. 😉
Back when I still had an 1104X-E, the $9 USB dongle worked great. I still prefer ethernet though.
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There's a "feature" that's bugging me, I haven't noticed before. Recently I've been doing a bunch of bode plots. When I hit print, the popup shows up displaying the file name, and the next file name. It won't go away on its own unless I close it or hit Print again. Is there some way to disable this? I couldn't find it in the menus.
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Hi,
No...this is a little bug which I also have on my HD.
BUT:
Afaik it was fixed with one of the latest firmware for the plus - Which version you have ?
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Hi,
No...this is a little bug which I also have on my HD.
BUT:
Afaik it was fixed with one of the latest firmware for the plus - Which version you have ?
I have the one from April: SDS2000X Plus Series_Firmware_V1.5.2R3. That's the latest available.
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Interesting..
Must check it again on one of our six 2k+ at work.
I thought this bug was fixed but when you have the latest firmware installed...
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There's a "feature" that's bugging me, I haven't noticed before. Recently I've been doing a bunch of bode plots. When I hit print, the popup shows up displaying the file name, and the next file name. It won't go away on its own unless I close it or hit Print again. Is there some way to disable this? I couldn't find it in the menus.
If not in X Plus it could be coming....it's in SDS1000X HD, probably 2000X HD too, Martin can confirm.
SDS6000A Utility > Save menu > Path settings
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Maybe mine is special? 🤷
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1797899;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1797905;image)
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See Robs Answer:
If not in X Plus it could be coming.
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....it's in SDS1000X HD, probably 2000X HD too, Martin can confirm.
SDS6000A Utility > Save menu > Path settings
No, same here as on the Xplus.
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There's a "feature" that's bugging me, I haven't noticed before. Recently I've been doing a bunch of bode plots. When I hit print, the popup shows up displaying the file name, and the next file name. It won't go away on its own unless I close it or hit Print again. Is there some way to disable this? I couldn't find it in the menus.
If not in X Plus it could be coming....it's in SDS1000X HD, probably 2000X HD too, Martin can confirm.
SDS6000A Utility > Save menu > Path settings
I cannot confirm nor deny this feature is implemented in last beta for SDS2000X HD.... ::) :-X
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And I can´t understand this "feature" in general... ;D
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And I can´t understand this "feature" in general... ;D
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1798175;image)
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There's a "feature" that's bugging me, I haven't noticed before. Recently I've been doing a bunch of bode plots. When I hit print, the popup shows up displaying the file name, and the next file name. It won't go away on its own unless I close it or hit Print again. Is there some way to disable this? I couldn't find it in the menus.
If not in X Plus it could be coming....it's in SDS1000X HD, probably 2000X HD too, Martin can confirm.
SDS6000A Utility > Save menu > Path settings
I cannot confirm nor deny this feature is implemented in last beta for SDS2000X HD.... ::) :-X
Then it need be implemented in all models that pop up a message when a file is saved !
All 3 settings, Hold (now default in some models), Fade, None and and the Fade Time option.
Will you propose it for me to back you up or the reverse ?
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SDS6000A Utility > Save menu > Path settings
In your picture you can see "Path Tips" and then the settings you´ve mentioned before.
In the current 6000A manual avaible (24.10.2022) there´s nothing about it to read - Do you have a clue for what it´s good for?
Me I just want to see a short confirmation after saving - At the moment, on 2k HD and 2k plus it lasts until you close it manually, that´s the bug.
So what could be the intention to make a "menu" for this instead of simply let the message appear for say 3..5 seconds ?
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SDS6000A Utility > Save menu > Path settings
In your picture you can see "Path Tips" and then the settings you´ve mentioned before.
In the current 6000A manual avaible (24.10.2022) there´s nothing about it to read - Do you have a clue for what it´s good for?
Me I just want to see a short confirmation after saving - At the moment, on 2k HD and 2k plus it lasts until you close it manually, that´s the bug.
So what could be the intention to make a "menu" for this instead of simply let the message appear for say 3..5 seconds ?
Management of the OSD saved file notification is done with Path Tips, the new 1000X HD has this and also my 6000A.
Fade and 3s is my sweet spot letting you know the file was saved and where to after which the OSD is only there for 3s then fades away. < That's how my 6000A is set in the screenshot I posted.
Hold is how X Plus seems be default currently (not got one out to check) and in your 2kX HD also it seems however Sinisa has seen the beta FW coming for it and indicated Path Tips are coming for it too although it doesn't appear in the release notes......seems like you'll need to wait for this improvement. ;)
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The first and last update is now 9 months ago, one is virtually practiced in patience.... ;)
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The first and last update is now 9 months ago, one is virtually practiced in patience.... ;)
The beta has only been available for a few weeks so maybe they're ironing out a few issues however that indicates it's quite close. ;)
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I have a question about the 10-bit acquisition mode: is it simply a hardware-accelerated digital interpolation filter?
If so, it seems like it wouldn't affect measurements at the max and min. Do I have that right?
For example, I've configured C1 as 100X, 50V/div (400V overall range from -200 to +200). If I vary the max input voltage continuously (via variable voltage divider), the peak voltages only vary by increments of ~1.67V whether I'm in 8-bit acquisition or 10-bit. The number of significant digits increases with 10-bit, but the min and max voltage increments don't change.
(Also, 1.67 would correspond to 240 increments over 400V rather than 256...are they dropping the high and low 8 intervals due to lack of linearity or something?)
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@Tautech : May I ask if a setup/hold trigger will be implemented in the next release ?
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@Tautech : May I ask if a setup/hold trigger will be implemented in the next release ?
No signs of such and exactly what does this do ?
Please describe in detail your needs.
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@Tautech : May I ask if a setup/hold trigger will be implemented in the next release ?
No signs of such and exactly what does this do ?
Please describe in detail your needs.
I would suspect you declare one channel as clock and another channel as data, and measure setup/hold times of data against the clock.
Trigger would be a when a (pre-set) violation has been detected.
For example:
If data has to be stable 1.2 nS before the clock, you would setup tests for setup violations where data changes in the 1.2nS window before the clock (rising or falling edge).
I too would find this feature VERY usefull ....
luudee
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Have you tried one of the Logic triggers for this need ?
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If data has to be stable 1.2 nS before the clock, you would setup tests for setup violations where data changes in the 1.2nS window before the clock (rising or falling edge).
I think this could be done with the "Zone trigger" with an avoid-zone within the interesting range. However, the SDS2000x Plus might not be fast enough to reliably analyze details within a 1.2nS time interval. Even with 2GSa/s there might be just one or two measurements within.
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Actually, so embarrassing, I just realized that my SDS5000 DOES HAVE setup/hold triggers !!!
I guess I never looked careful enough, and somehow did not think such an advanced feature would be implemented !
Cheers,
luudee
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I atttached an aplication note but it's what Luudee described. SDS2000X HD has the feature too
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Siglent is becoming better than A-brands... They implement features before the users requests!! :)
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Siglent is becoming better than A-brands... They implement features before the users requests!! :)
LOL!!
on a serious side, SDS2000HD SDS5000X and SDS6000A have these advanced triggers on top of what SDS2000X+ has:
Qualified Trigger
Nth Edge Trigger
Delay Trigger
Setup/Hold Trigger
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In reply to a few that have asked for WiFi capability for these scopes....
In another thread member Peter_O pointed us to a TP-Link device used in Client mode with his SDS2000X Plus where it accesses any local WiFi access point and provides an isolated (secure) LAN and WiFi connection.
https://www.tp-link.com/us/home-networking/wifi-router/tl-wr902ac/ (https://www.tp-link.com/us/home-networking/wifi-router/tl-wr902ac/)
Scroll down to #4 Client mode.
Although it can be USB powered specs say 2A so what a scope USB port will think of that I'm unsure. :-//
Nevertheless one is on my shopping list to evaluate.....
I've an TL-WR902 AC and have been using it with a seperate USB power supply.
Just put my amps dongle in between and it shows 350mA mostly, but sometimes 560mA.
So with a seperate PSU we're on the save side.
Just now, I get a connection, the web site for the device shows up, Home screen etc. ok, PW is right, but the Instument Control screen shows no content from the scope.
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SDS2000HD SDS5000X and SDS6000A have these advanced triggers on top of what SDS2000X+ has:
Qualified Trigger
Nth Edge Trigger
Delay Trigger
Setup/Hold Trigger
For me it´s OK... 8)
If the plus had nearly all the features the others have, why buy a more expensive scope...
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In reply to a few that have asked for WiFi capability for these scopes....
In another thread member Peter_O pointed us to a TP-Link device used in Client mode with his SDS2000X Plus where it accesses any local WiFi access point and provides an isolated (secure) LAN and WiFi connection.
https://www.tp-link.com/us/home-networking/wifi-router/tl-wr902ac/ (https://www.tp-link.com/us/home-networking/wifi-router/tl-wr902ac/)
Scroll down to #4 Client mode.
Although it can be USB powered specs say 2A so what a scope USB port will think of that I'm unsure. :-//
Nevertheless one is on my shopping list to evaluate.....
I've an TL-WR902 AC and have been using it with a seperate USB power supply.
Just put my amps dongle in between and it shows 350mA mostly, but sometimes 560mA.
So with a seperate PSU we're on the save side.
Just now, I get a connection, the web site for the device shows up, Home screen etc. ok, PW is right, but the Instument Control screen shows no content from the scope.
From my brief studies of TL-WR902 AC thus far it can provide an isolated LAN and therefore probably uses its own IP for which you'll need to set the scope to.....but yes something funny going on there.
I thought you said you had it working ? :-//
Maybe Default or Secure Erase the scope and try again.
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Agreed and Siglent specifies well all the triggers into the datasheet. Altough I still remain astonish as this kind of trigger is not a high end feature and even a DS1000Z got it.
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In reply to a few that have asked for WiFi capability for these scopes....
In another thread member Peter_O pointed us to a TP-Link device used in Client mode with his SDS2000X Plus where it accesses any local WiFi access point and provides an isolated (secure) LAN and WiFi connection.
https://www.tp-link.com/us/home-networking/wifi-router/tl-wr902ac/ (https://www.tp-link.com/us/home-networking/wifi-router/tl-wr902ac/)
Scroll down to #4 Client mode.
Although it can be USB powered specs say 2A so what a scope USB port will think of that I'm unsure. :-//
Nevertheless one is on my shopping list to evaluate.....
I've an TL-WR902 AC and have been using it with a seperate USB power supply.
Just put my amps dongle in between and it shows 350mA mostly, but sometimes 560mA.
So with a seperate PSU we're on the save side.
Just now, I get a connection, the web site for the device shows up, Home screen etc. ok, PW is right, but the Instument Control screen shows no content from the scope.
From my brief studies of TL-WR902 AC thus far it can provide an isolated LAN and therefore probably uses its own IP for which you'll need to set the scope to.....but yes something funny going on there.
I thought you said you had it working ? :-//
Maybe Default or Secure Erase the scope and try again.
Yes, the TL-WR902 AC has always worked and does now. Always with seperate power adapter. Till now I've never had the idea to use an usb port.
In TL's client mode, the Siglent is running in the same IP network with same device IP address as with patched connection.
I just double checked with a patch cable connection. Same there: Home screen, LAN config works and is fully responsive. Instrument control page shows up too, but with no content in window. :scared:
Seems to be a separate problem. I'll ivestigate when I've time. ...
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Yes, the TL-WR902 AC has always worked and does now. Always with seperate power adapter. Till now I've never had the idea to use an usb port.
In TL's client mode, the Siglent is running in the same IP network with same device IP address as with patched connection.
I just double checked with a patch cable connection. Same there: Home screen, LAN config works and is fully responsive. Instrument control page shows up too, but with no content in window. :scared:
Seems to be a separate problem. I'll ivestigate when I've time. ...
I don't know much about that device specifically, except somebody said it's essentially a fully equipped router.
So does it have a firewall? If so, I would disable any firewalls on it, as that would likely block content. Also check if any ports are being blocked.
If it has the option, set your scope as the DMZ.
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Regarding the problem of SDS2000X Plus connecting to WIFI, I have a cheap and simple solution: buy a TL-WR802N mini router, the price is 12 US dollars, use the client mode, and connect the oscilloscope with a network cable. At this time, the router is equivalent to a wireless network card.
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Yes, the TL-WR902 AC has always worked and does now. Always with seperate power adapter. Till now I've never had the idea to use an usb port.
In TL's client mode, the Siglent is running in the same IP network with same device IP address as with patched connection.
I just double checked with a patch cable connection. Same there: Home screen, LAN config works and is fully responsive. Instrument control page shows up too, but with no content in window. :scared:
Seems to be a separate problem. I'll ivestigate when I've time. ...
I don't know much about that device specifically, except somebody said it's essentially a fully equipped router.
So does it have a firewall? If so, I would disable any firewalls on it, as that would likely block content. Also check if any ports are being blocked.
If it has the option, set your scope as the DMZ.
"Firewall" was the right thing to check. thx :-+
Since last remote use of the Siglent I changed the internet protection software on the pc. Adding the IP of the Siglent to the web protection exception list has fixed the problem for the LAN.
For the TP-Link there seems to be some problem left. Time to set it up from scratch.
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I was originally after a cheaper scope but after reviewing my requirements, I am in the MSO5000 / SDS2000X price bracket by the looks of it.
So, I'm wondering where is the best place to buy SDS2000X series? I'm after a 4-ch (everyone recommends this), at the low end and I'll 'tweak' it.
Otherwise how does this compare with the MSO5000? I've read/watched reviews and teardowns of this and people seem to complain a lot about it, mostly the UI/controls. Is it a no-brainer to go for a SDS2000X at a bit more $? Thanks.
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I was originally after a cheaper scope but after reviewing my requirements, I am in the MSO5000 / SDS2000X price bracket by the looks of it.
Note that the Siglent SDS2000X series includes several models (I am writing this because you also asked a question in the thread about the SDS2000X HD - which is much more expensive than the MSO5000).
SDS2000X (The old version is no longer produced) - https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000x/
SDS2000X Plus (8-bit oscilloscopes - more expensive than MSO5000, but also IMHO better) - https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/
SDS2000X HD (12-bit oscilloscopes - a completely different level than the MSO5000 and also a completely different price) - https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000x-hd-digital-storage-oscilloscope/
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TBH you're better to buy locally as shipping might eat any savings you might get.
Haggle with local suppliers for a deal. ;)
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Thanks Tautech. I see you're in NZ, do you know local Aussie suppliers (who frequent this forum) or where I can get a deal in Australia? (Or can you ship here?)
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Thanks Tautech. I see you're in NZ, do you know local Aussie suppliers (who frequent this forum) or where I can get a deal in Australia? (Or can you ship here?)
We each have our assigned territories. Find yours here:
https://int.siglent.com/map/
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I put in an order for a SDS2104X Plus yesterday from AppVision. :D They are running an EOFY sale at the moment, 15% off using a code. :-+
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I put in an order for a SDS2104X Plus yesterday from AppVision. :D They are running an EOFY sale at the moment, 15% off using a code. :-+
It's a great scope, and @Fungus is right; you'll definitely appreciate the touchscreen on it.
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For those in Australia considering the purchase of a Siglent SDS2000X Plus or other test gear, Appvision are currently running a few special deals which they just posted on Ozbargain (https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/783188). I have no affiliation with either entity.
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How do these compare side by side with similarly spec'd Tekronix and Keysight/Ag ?
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How do these compare side by side with similarly spec'd Tekronix and Keysight/Ag ?
If they're similarly spec'd, then I think your wallet would see the biggest difference. 😉
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How do these compare side by side with similarly spec'd Tekronix and Keysight/Ag ?
Similar specs?
Ohhh, about 1/5 the price.
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But performance wise tho ? What's much different ? Maybe the input noise ? Or ??
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But performance wise tho ? What's much different ? Maybe the input noise ? Or ??
Compared to what?
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But performance wise tho ? What's much different ? Maybe the input noise ? Or ??
Maybe it's time for some serious datasheet study of all the models that interest you.
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/22_09_19/SDS2000X%20Plus_Datasheet_EN01C.pdf
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But performance wise tho ? What's much different ? Maybe the input noise ? Or ??
You asked for the difference to Keysight and Tektronix. People told you that its the price, which would be five times higher for the same specs. "Same specs" means same performance, doesn't it? On the other hand, there is no such thing as "same specs". Even a 4000 series Keysight (where the price is more like ten times as much) will still have no deep measurements and only a lousy 64 kpts FFT - so far from "same specs" - it is optimized for highest possible trigger rates instead...
So what's your question? Do you now want to know about the performance difference at the same price level? The simple answer to this is that the SDS2000X Plus is an upper entry level scope (even top entry level in case of the fully optioned version), while for the same money you can get a 1000 series bottom of the barrel entry level device from KS/Tek at best.
Even when you compare the much more expensive higher class scopes, you would have a hard time to find one with a hardware accelerated 2 Mpts FFT or a 3-channel Bode plotter up to 120 MHz with more than 100 (up to 140) dB dynamic range. Not to mention the >10 MPts deep measurements that make this scope a highly accurate signal analyzer. What about histograms? 7 digit trigger frequency counter? Or long memory - compare the 200 Mpts of the SDS2000X Plus to the 4 Mpts (even less in almost all practical scenarios) of even the Keysight 4000 series. And what about the very well working 10-bit mode in the SDS2000X Plus?
The SDS2000X Plus noise performance is similar to R&S RTB2000, apart from that it has the lowest noise of the comparable 2000 series instruments.
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I'll have to look for a side by side review of some. Not that I'm ever planning to buy a modern Tek/HPAK, too expensive.
But yeah, I guess it's hard to compare them. IDK any modern TEK/HPAC scopes anyways
I own the SDM3065X, I would love too see that side by side with some other 6.5D meters.
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But yeah, I guess it's hard to compare them. IDK any modern TEK/HPAC scopes anyways
I still don't understand what you mean..
Modern Tek /Keysight in 1000/2000 class are not very modern or are severely limited in capabilities compared to competition in segment.
Is 25000 USD Tek series 6 scope better than best in 2000 class 1200 USD scope from Siglent... ??
Well, it better be...
Fact is that people tried to explain: you need to say what do you want to compare it to, in terms of capabilities of instrument...
To put it bluntly, if you disregard "only 500 MHZ BW", you must buy at least 3 series from Tek or DSOX4000 series from Keysight to get even close to capabilities, and even then SDS2000X+ will be better in many regards: channel sensitivity (hardware 500uV div), advanced measurements on full buffer with statistics and histicons, deep memory etc.
SDS2000X+ will not have some protocol decodes, and some other stuff (that are paid for option with Tek and Keysight, just saying).. We are talking 10X money here....
Anything in 1(000) and 2(000) series scopes from big brands is seriously outmatched. Only big brand 2000 series device that is comparable is RTB2000 from R&S at 3x the price.
But RTB2000 is good device.
Tek and Keysight OTOH are actually seriously outmatched in this segment even comparing to very entry level SDS1104X-E or even Rigol DS1104Z.
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Is 25000 USD Tek series 6 scope better than best in 2000 class 1200 USD scope from Siglent... ??
Well, it better be...
:-DD
Word.
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I'll have to look for a side by side review of some. Not that I'm ever planning to buy a modern Tek/HPAK, too expensive.
But yeah, I guess it's hard to compare them. IDK any modern TEK/HPAC scopes anyways
I own the SDM3065X, I would love too see that side by side with some other 6.5D meters.
I too would be interested in such comparisons, most notably in regard of their tempco performance which was the stand out feature that led me to "push the boat out" regarding the higher price compared to its humbler cousin, the SDM3055X. A low tempco voltmeter had become a major requirement in my experiments with converting an Efratom LPR101 into a high stability frequency reference only bested by a well calibrated cesium frequency standard.
After comparing the specs of the 3065 against its lesser cousins, I concluded that "I may as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb" and get an extra digit of resolution into the bargain. In all honesty, it's a decision I have no regrets over. Indeed the undoubtedly very low tempco and the extra digit gave me a surprisingly useful insight into the rubidium oscillator's thermal behavior whilst monitoring its "Lamp Voltage" during my protracted testing of various fan controlled cooling algorithms I was testing out on an Arduino nano mcu module.
What I was seeing was a slight but definite negative tempco variation (that would otherwise have been barely detectable on a 5 1/2 digit voltmeter) related to the thermal time constant of around 33 seconds that I'd seen with my early crude temperature control efforts just over two and a half years ago when I first embarked on this ambitious project using a simple comparitor with a thermistor and fixed resistor potentiometer to detect when it had gone under or over a set threshold to simply switch a cooling fan on or off leading to over and undershoots of +/- 1 degree or so at a cycle rate of around 33 seconds.
In short, that extra investment in the SDM3065X option has well and truly proved its worth in my case since I'm now seeing baseplate temperature fluctuations around the 36.10 degree balance point of +/- 20mK or so in the ambient range of 16.5 to 29.5 degrees helped in large part thanks to the 3065X in revealing the subtle variations of 'Lamp Voltage' with changes in temperature gradient within the LPRO itself.
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I own 3 working scopes, but I never really compared any of them, and only my siglent is modern, so I don't even bother with the other anymore, mainly because the are so much bigger, on the desk.
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I use my Synology NAS to store stuff for the Scope. The only problem I ran into was that the Scope did not understand the UNC name.
eg: //Synology-01/TestEquip
^ ^----------- Share Name
^--------- UNC (Universal Naming Convention)
I had to set it up as //192.168.1.50/TestEquip
^------ Synology IP address.
Of course this works best if your server is setup to have a static IP address.
TestEquip is a share I setup on the Synology.
Siglent did a very good thing by implementing the "Net Storage" option.
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In reply to a few that have asked for WiFi capability for these scopes....
In another thread member Peter_O pointed us to a TP-Link device used in Client mode with his SDS2000X Plus where it accesses any local WiFi access point and provides an isolated (secure) LAN and WiFi connection.
https://www.tp-link.com/us/home-networking/wifi-router/tl-wr902ac/ (https://www.tp-link.com/us/home-networking/wifi-router/tl-wr902ac/)
Scroll down to #4 Client mode.
Although it can be USB powered specs say 2A so what a scope USB port will think of that I'm unsure. :-//
Nevertheless one is on my shopping list to evaluate.....
Posted in another thread, my results:
Regarding the problem of SDS2000X Plus connecting to WIFI, I have a cheap and simple solution: buy a TL-WR802N mini router, the price is 12 US dollars, use the client mode, and connect the oscilloscope with a network cable. At this time, the router is equivalent to a wireless network card.
Fantastic little device. :clap:
Just got mine working and it's totally invisible to your devices when in Client mode.
However when looking locally for one they were nothing like 12USD and I succumbed to one from Aliexpress. ::)
Well I paid for that in that the configuration UI was in Chinese with no apparent way around it but with a lot of Copy/Paste into Google Translate I finally got the thing to work. :phew:
Advice to westerners, get a English UI model so to not be confronted with this:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-hack/?action=dlattach;attach=1805273)
There is a good amount of configuration required and done in Access Point mode before change to Client mode and all of which would be so much easier if you can read Mandarin. :horse:
Nevertheless I got it to work in the end so carrying equipment that normally requires a wired LAN connection to your network for remote access is no longer required. 8)
Tests with SDS1104X-E (yes I do have the USB WiFi dongle too) with NTP time server and a SVA1000X analyzer/VNA, both connected to an iPad just fine and each of them communicated with our WiFi router DHCP for IP addresses fine also demonstrating TL-WR802N is invisible to devices that connect to you LAN via it.
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Tek and Keysight OTOH are actually seriously outmatched in this segment even comparing to very entry level SDS1104X-E...
In the most obvious bang-for-buck ways, yes. But do their 100Hz square waves have 'droop'? >:D
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dmmcheck-plus-multimeter-calibration-reference-experiences/msg4955995/#msg4955995 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dmmcheck-plus-multimeter-calibration-reference-experiences/msg4955995/#msg4955995)
Things like that matter to some people--they don't need an advanced feature set but they don't want oopsies and suprises. I can deal with it if I know about it, but IMO it still keeps Siglent (at least that model) out of 'A-brand' territory.
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A sanity check with TL-WR802N connected to the SDS1000X HD LAN port and the WiFi module in Client mode powered from the DSO's USB port......saves on needing another power connection for the adapter. :phew:
DSO inside on WiFi and me in shed on a wired LAN workstation......works a treat controlling the DSO remotely with a mouse and no wired LAN connection to the scope.
Browser screenshot grabbed as evidence......
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I got my new sds2104x-plus, looks great so far. I have to registrar to get the 200MHz upgrade.
I installed the NI-VISA drivers and EasyWaveX, and imported 1 static image of only 1 channel. How to I see the realtime view on my PC ?
I'm connected over USB, in utilities, I don't see any mention of USB, like in the manual, but it's doing something over it. In the LAN settings, I see an IP address, but IDK if that can work over USB. I tried it in firefox and it just times out. Can it be done over USB ? I'm new to EasyWaveX, and I used to use the webbrowser option with my sds1204x-e, that was a quick/easy way have realtime view, and take snapshots.
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and I used to use the webbrowser option with my sds1204x-e, that was a quick/easy way have realtime view, and take snapshots.
I use it too, nothing else..
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My scope is next to my PC, but the only ethernet port is used for my incoming internet from the modem. And I don't have another cable long enough to go from scope to modem.
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My scope is next to my PC, but the only ethernet port is used for my incoming internet from the modem. And I don't have another cable long enough to go from scope to modem.
Get a cheap switch to have near the bench for all your LAN capable gear.
SDS2kX Plus Web connectivity is quite similar to 4ch X-E but much more powerful.
Set it up in much the same way and Save the IP address and just navigate to the scope Home page in a webrowser.
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My scope is next to my PC, but the only ethernet port is used for my incoming internet from the modem. And I don't have another cable long enough to go from scope to modem.
A switch doesn´t cost much:
https://www.amazon.de/-/en/TL-SG105-shielded-optimized-snooping-unmanaged/dp/B00A128S24/ref=sr_1_1?crid=24O5KGMYMU8EN&keywords=TP-Link+TL+SG105&qid=1690488015&sprefix=tp-link+tl+sg105%2Caps%2C89&sr=8-1 (https://www.amazon.de/-/en/TL-SG105-shielded-optimized-snooping-unmanaged/dp/B00A128S24/ref=sr_1_1?crid=24O5KGMYMU8EN&keywords=TP-Link+TL+SG105&qid=1690488015&sprefix=tp-link+tl+sg105%2Caps%2C89&sr=8-1)
edit tautech was faster..
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Ok I see EasyScope is not the same as Easywave, is I have Easyscope installed now, but I'm running the self-cal, and so far I can't see what's displayed on the scope screen.
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Ok I see EasyScope is not the same as Easywave, is I have Easyscope installed now, but I'm running the self-cal, and so far I can't see what's displayed on the scope screen.
It's in the ES menus but not a patch on real webrowser control. :horse:
Take your pick, a cheap switch or the TP-Link WiFi WiFi to LAN adapter used in Client mode I mentioned a few posts back.
Also linked in the OP if you hunt through the POI list.
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Well I have EasyScope running, but when I click add scope, it's listed there under USB, but it says failed to connect ??
OK I rebooted the scope, and now here's a pic from Easyscope, I made a common-base Colpitt's oscillator.
Later I'll see what my 120MHz AGW gen looks like on this. I guess 1 of the next things I'll want, is a faster AGW, :palm:.
[attachimg=1]
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Hoping you're running EasyScopeX.....
USB connection is very straightforward and then select the Virtual Panel for scope control as shown below with SDS1204X HD.
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Yup ESX
The traces seem to have more aliasing then I remember from my 1204xe, IDK if that's just the bigger screen, or some settings. So far the menu's are pretty easy to use. I read that a lot of options are unlocked for the 1st while or some many uses. I should try the internal AWG, see if I can use it to do a bode plot of the CB amp I made.
I thought so, there's some issue with me trying to upload the PNG file the ESX saves. It's only ~2MB but the form says there's an error or it fails some security check, and to check with admins.
So like the 1st pic, I'll have to use snipping tool to take the screenshot.
[attachimg=1]
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The traces seem to have more aliasing then I remember from my 1204xe, IDK if that's just the bigger screen......
And double the sampling rate. ;)
You can engage 10 Bit mode but it tops out @100 MHz....don't get caught out like DJ when he did a teardown.
All options are free to use for 30 trial uses.....use them sparingly. ;)
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I seem to have a legit issue, I'm using the internal AWG set to 20mVpp @2MHz, and channel's 3/4. And with CH3 on the common base input, I see the input trace at 10mV/div and 1mV/div settings, but it almost goes away on 2 and 5mV/div
Any idea what that's about ? It's SW version 1.5.2R2, FPGA ver 2022-05-23
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attach=3][attach=4]
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Some is local RFI/EMI from somewhere. :-//
Cabling/connection ?
These modern sensitive DSO's will test all your probing/connections and the 20 MHz BW limit will help some when in a noisy environment.
Me, I'd rather have the sensitivity and then manage how the DSO displays the waveform and any associated noise as most often it is not actually in the DUT.
Trigger level is set too high and too near the top of the waveform, reduce it some.
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Oh boy, it does it on Ch4 also, I changed trigger level, timebase, I was on 10bit res. The green trace is on the CB collector/output, and it was a lot bigger than the input, and it gets reduced quite a bit but not to near zero.
Now on Ch1/2 only, it's the same, the traces gets shrunken down, but not all the way, on 2mV and 5mV/div, on any timescale I tried, on 8bit or 10bit
[attach=2][attach=1][attach=3][attach=4]
The pic for 1mV/div was like for 10mV/div, but now the scope or ESX has stopped capturing, restarting ESX won't connect again !!
I did the full self-cal, took like 30minutes it seemed, right before I got ESX working.
With no probes attached, i can still see the noise getting reduced, on 2 and 5mV/div
I bought it new, from a legit retailer, not open box or used, not that I was told anyways. It had the protector still on the screen.
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And when inputs are Ground coupled ?
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Yeah I just updated to 1.5.2R3, and the problem is the same. And with coupling to GND, the Vpp that the measure displays, is ~200uVpp on 500u/1mV/div, and ~60uVpp on 2mV/d, ~130uV on 5mV/d, and 333uVpp on 10mV/div, so it's there too.
I'm guessing this will take a RMA to fix.
I'll try self-cal again.
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Yeah I just updated to 1.5.2R3, and the problem is the same.
I'll try self-cal again.
:-+
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Ok thank god that seemed to fix it, now it looks about right, when on 2/5mV. I unhooked the USB as well when I did the self-cal, so no ESX inference either. And it went about 5x quicker than before.
I'll have to get out my AWG and run some other checks. Thanks TauTech.
[attachimg=1]
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Don't forget, they recommend at least 30 minutes warm up time before self cal.
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Yeah it wasn't that, I had on a few hours. Did anyone else ever have that problem ? That built in AWG is pretty handy, I hope it stays after the trial period. IDK what the return policy is from the place I bought it, so I'm not going to hack it for a couple of weeks at least, but I better put it to use, make sure there's no more bad surprises.
I have plenty of projects I could working on.
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I'm connected over USB, in utilities, I don't see any mention of USB, like in the manual, but it's doing something over it. In the LAN settings, I see an IP address, but IDK if that can work over USB. I tried it in firefox and it just times out. Can it be done over USB ?
No. Web interface only works over LAN (ethernet).
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IDK what the return policy is from the place I bought it, so I'm not going to hack it for a couple of weeks at least
Adding a license key to enable a feature is a legit procedure, not a hack. If you decide to prolong your tests by calculating the needed numbers by yourself instead of paying someone to do this for you - rest assured, they are identical.
In case of a return, the added licenses or uses try count must get reset to factory defaults anyway.
But if you really think about returning the scope, you probably might not want to argue why you obviously bought a non refundable license key before deciding to keep the device. :palm:
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Yeah there's no rush on the hack.
I'm just going through the DC accuracy with my hacked SPD33003X and sdm3065X. The PSU is holding up well. A few of the scope channels are maybe a bit over the 3% of range setting, but maybe not if it's averaged. Like on 2V/div, no offset, currently 101mV on PSU, the mean value on ch2, the average is around 165mV, and it's jumping between say 140mV to 180.
A moment ago, ch3 was average ~160mV mean value, but now it's settled ~140mV, but I still see 170mV pop up on the mean value. It's been on ~2hrs.
Still on 2V/div, no offset, 652mV PSU, ch2 is ~700mV average, so just under the 60mV=3%.
At 6.101V, ch2 looks like ~6.18V average of the displayed mean, but I see 6.19xxx popping in. The other channels have ~6.10, 6.04, 6.06V
Now ~5-10min later, ch2 is ~6.16V average of the displayed mean. They're are all on 20MBW, 1x probes, 2us/div, 10bit, 50Mpts.
IDK how typical all this is, but like someone said on here, scopes aren't meant to be "precision" instruments. I've swapped probes around, and that made no real difference.
The lower ranges seemed in spec, most being no worse than 1.5-2%.
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Remember that this has an 8bit ADC in it (as most scopes still do). It's not a DMM with 24 (or more) bits of resoultion.
You have 8 vertical divisions on the screen, you set the scope so each division represents 2V meaning there's 16V from bottom to top of the screen. Those 16V is digitized with that 8bit ADC.
16V/256=62.5mV per bit.
In reality is likely slighly "worse" than that. Your 100mV signal basically causes the ADC to flicker between a value of 1 and 2.
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Yeah I should try the same thing with my sds1204x-e, I've had no issues with that, but it's probably way more accurate in my mind, than it really is.
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it would be nice to be able to link the oscilloscope to the sigrok / salae logic analyzer software. but unfortunately i cannot see any of these scope(s) on the wiki's supported hardware list
https://sigrok.org/wiki/Supported_hardware#Oscilloscopes
If you are using Linux (specifically Fedora 35) you can try out my build here: https://github.com/gralco/libsigrok/releases/tag/sds2000x_plus
Downloaded your build of libsigrok.so...
Should the list in Pulseview (Step 1: Choose the driver) now show a SDS2000X Plus device or should I use the existing SDS1000/SDS2000 device?
Havent got a SDS2104X Plus (but maybe soon), so I cant test it myself.
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it would be nice to be able to link the oscilloscope to the sigrok / salae logic analyzer software. but unfortunately i cannot see any of these scope(s) on the wiki's supported hardware list
https://sigrok.org/wiki/Supported_hardware#Oscilloscopes
If you are using Linux (specifically Fedora 35) you can try out my build here: https://github.com/gralco/libsigrok/releases/tag/sds2000x_plus
Downloaded your build of libsigrok.so...
Should the list in Pulseview (Step 1: Choose the driver) now show a SDS2000X Plus device or should I use the existing SDS1000/SDS2000 device?
Havent got a SDS2104X Plus (but maybe soon), so I cant test it myself.
You would use the existing "Siglent SDS1000/SDS2000 (siglent-sds)" option.
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I measured the noise floor of my SDS2140X plus at the full bandwidth (500 MHz).
At the vertical setting of 1mV/div this is 74uV, which is even better than the spec of 80uV.
But if I set the vertical to 5mV and higher, the floor noise also increases, while the gain decreases. At 10V/div this is even 131mV. See the attached screen dumps.
Can someone explain why this is so?
Oh, I forgot to mention that I terminated the input with an external 50 Ohm resistor.
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I measured the noise floor of my SDS2140X plus at the full bandwidth (500 MHz).
At the vertical setting of 1mV/div this is 74uV, which is even better than the spec of 80uV.
But if I set the vertical to 5mV and higher, the floor noise also increases, while the gain decreases. At 10V/div this is even 131mV. See the attached screen dumps.
Can someone explain why this is so?
Siglent is quite conservative with specifications.
Short version?
Noise will be proportion (percentage) of full vertical dynamic range (sensitivity).
Input of the scope consists of input attenuator, buffer and amplifier block(s) (VGA), ADC driver and ADC, each with it's noise contribution...
Different sensitivities will be achieved with different attenuation/ amplification factor combinations.
For example, attenuator before amplifier will decrease input signal say, 10x, but all other parts after that will keep the same noise. Since we are at 10x larger range, noise goes up 10x, input referred.
There are quite a few combinations being used between all the available ranges so noise will sometimes be different than predicted if we had few simple attenuator /fixed gain blocks.
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Siglent STB3 Demo Board issue (I2C Serial Protocol)
Hi,
According to the manual a 12 bytes frame should be output. But on my Siglent SDS2354X Plus I see only the last 6 bytes, NT_XX_XX_XX_XX. I also made a comparison with a Saleae Logic Analyzer. Also here the same result. Only the last 6 bytes are displayed.
Is there a setting which I have overlooked? :-//
Cheers
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Siglent STB3 Demo Board issue (I2C Serial Protocol)
Hi,
According to the manual a 12 bytes frame should be output. But on my Siglent SDS2354X Plus I see only the last 6 bytes, NT_XX_XX_XX_XX. I also made a comparison with a Saleae Logic Analyzer. Also here the same result. Only the last 6 bytes are displayed.
Is there a setting which I have overlooked? :-//
Cheers
Maybe.
Screenshot ?
Quick example from SDS1204X HD....
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I²C bus is something I never managed to display in all the years with all scopes.
So with the STB-3, with the Batronix board it worked immediately - on all scopes.. ;)
Despite advanced time here, I had just tried again, on the 1104X-E and on the 2504X HD, no chance. ;)
Please show where on the board you pick up the signals.
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I²C bus is something I never managed to display in all the years with all scopes.
So with the STB-3, with the Batronix board it worked immediately - on all scopes.. ;)
Despite advanced time here, I had just tried again, on the 1104X-E and on the 2504X HD, no chance. ;)
Please show where on the board you pick up the signals.
Use pins marked J23 and J24. ;)
I2C SDA and I2C SCL.
Don’t forget a reference (gnd) connection especially when powering STB3 from an external supply.
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The question was serious meant my friend. ;)
Because:
There are not many parameters you can set when decoding I²C.
SDA, SCL, which channel, thresholds, that´s it when you don´t use the serial trigger.
So I determine the channels, set the thresholds to 1.67V each, edge trigger, ASCII....and some BS appears.
I´ve asked for the connection because my signal is not so "wide" as yours when choosing the same horizontal settings like you did.
But on my board j24 and j23 are the same, no print error.. ;)
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For simple decoding with an Edge trigger you should use a falling edge and always some Holdoff, a little more than one packet length.
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Holdoff makes sense, try it "later".
But it won´t explain the length(are there bitrate settings on the board, like on the batronix?)
But one step after the other, I´ll report.
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Holdoff makes sense, try it "later".
But it won´t explain the length(are there bitrate settings on the board, like on the batronix?)
But one step after the other, I´ll report.
Simply, when using an Edge trigger you just won’t get stable triggering without a packet length of holdoff.
Absolute first requirement is to have rock solid stable triggering…….
One must remember what the most powerful feature is of any scope...triggering !
BTW, STB-3 signals are not intended as examples of what a scope can do but they are instead a test the operator knows how to properly use the scope, any scope.
The STB-3 manual provides the basic settings to get results then the rest is up to the knowledge and skill of the operator.
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Instead of a proper description, as others(rigol, batronix) seem to manage, to say that this is something for people who know what they are doing, was not really clever from a marketing point of view.
But we already had that topic.
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Instead of a proper description, as others(rigol, batronix) seem to manage, to say that this is something for people who know what they are doing, was not really clever from a marketing point of view.
But we already had that topic.
Marketing what ?
A DSO so smart anyone can drive or one we need be master of ?
STB-3 = test board, a test for not only the scope but the operator also.
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[/quote]
Maybe.
Screenshot ?
Quick example from SDS1204X HD....
[/quote]
Here are my settings on my SDS2354X Plus. I use SP2035A Probes (10X)
Cheers
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I²C bus is something I never managed to display in all the years with all scopes.
So with the STB-3, with the Batronix board it worked immediately - on all scopes.. ;)
Despite advanced time here, I had just tried again, on the 1104X-E and on the 2504X HD, no chance. ;)
Please show where on the board you pick up the signals.
SCL on J24 -> CH1
SDA on J23 -> CH2
Cheers
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With the BATRONIX MSO I2C Demo I got this result
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Instead of a proper description, as others(rigol, batronix) seem to manage, to say that this is something for people who know what they are doing, was not really clever from a marketing point of view.
But we already had that topic.
Marketing what ?
A DSO so smart anyone can drive or one we need be master of ?
STB-3 = test board, a test for not only the scope but the operator also.
In my case, especially the operator :-DD
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Here are my settings on my SDS2354X Plus. I use SP2035A Probes (10X)
Compare with this:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1855384)
I suggest you go back to basics with a falling edge trigger and a packet width+ of holdoff.
With the BATRONIX board there is is virtually zero payload beyond the packet header.
STB-3 packet header is always SIGLENT plus the ever-changing payload where you need the serial triggering to trigger on a those bits.
Get stable triggering for the packet header decode then experiment with the serial trigger to trigger on payload bits.
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Here are my settings on my SDS2354X Plus. I use SP2035A Probes (10X)
Compare with this:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1855384)
I suggest you go back to basics with a falling edge trigger and a packet width+ of holdoff.
With the BATRONIX board there is is virtually zero payload beyond the packet header.
STB-3 packet header is always SIGLENT plus the ever-changing payload where you need the serial triggering to trigger on a those bits.
Get stable triggering for the packet header decode then experiment with the serial trigger to trigger on payload bits.
I have selected various holdoff events, but with no success.
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With the Saleae Logic Analyzer, the same behavior is seen.
SPI protocol, however, is displayed correctly.
Cheers
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@Rob:
Just show us screenshots of your settings please - I tried it again, I even got "rockstable" trigger...But it´s the same like mathstudi´s results.
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I have selected various holdoff events, but with no success.
As expected, there many more trigger events in a packet CLK waveform.
You can see the packet width in units of time so instead use time and NOT events for the Holdoff period.
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Simple decode trigger holdoff tutorial.
Despite all the magnificent features the modern DSO offers its most powerful tool is the trigger featureset and it need be mastered to use any DSO to its full capability.
For decode use we must inhibit triggering with some holdoff so to NOT have retriggering within a data packet.
Therefore we need identify packet length (time) and apply just enough holdoff to disable the trigger for a defined period.
We can easy press Stop and use the graticules to determine packet length then transfer that time to the trigger holdoff setting as is done in the first screenshot.....with the additional press of the correct unit, in this case m for ms.
All that remains is to set the correct decode configuration and hey presto, a correct and valid decode.
This remains my MO for any initial decode work so to know for sure basic decode works before attempting to use a serial trigger to trigger on any specific bit.
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Just tell the holdoff time you use for I2C, thank you. ;)
Btw., when you set the thresholds for the signals right, it doesn't matter if you have a stable trigger set.
At least on the spi signal from the siglent board.
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Just tell the holdoff time you use for I2C, thank you. ;)
Like with any protocol, just a little more that one packet. I2C, 2ms IIRC
Press Stop and measure like I did above.....just eyeball the graticules. ;)
Btw., when you set the thresholds for the signals right, it doesn't matter if you have a stable trigger set.
Trigger is for stable waveforms, thresholds are for correct decode.
Each need be set correctly.
It is easy and every screenshot I've posted took barely 1 minute to capture from normal scope settings...
Set trigger to falling edge, assess packet width and set holdoff, decode type, assign the clk and data channels and finally other settings....faster than typing this.
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Where is the "D=" for the letter "G"? Is it because "G" is too wide to still fit the "D=" on the screen?
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@Rob:
I know that all, the reason why I want you to show your settings (trigger) is, that I think the Signal is just not the same as on your testboard.
At the moment I have the board at work, test the I2C with two another scopes, in summary with four different scopes and just can't get the same result.
Every other decoding signal is no problem.
I made a short video from the SDS2104X+ to show that I had a stable signal, uploading it when back at home.
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@Rob:
I know that all, the reason why I want you to show your settings (trigger) is, that I think the Signal is just not the same as on your testboard.
At the moment I have the board at work, test the I2C with two another scopes, in summary with four different scopes and just can't get the same result.
Every other decoding signal is no problem.
I made a short video from the SDS2104X+ to show that I had a stable signal, uploading it when back at home.
I also think like Martin72 that we have different board revisions.
On my board there is this imprint:
SDY8.007.126B,
STB3_160100.
There is also a bar code and the serial number, which I don't want to publish.
@Martin72 and @tautech: What board revisions do you have?
I bought my board from BATRONIX at the end of February 2022.
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Hi,
My board is older, maybe I find a pic from it because I leave it at work today.
https://youtu.be/ndXcrO2niZ4
Clip from today at work, stable signal, more stable you would get when pressing the stop button. ;)
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On my board there is this imprint:
SDY8.007.126B,
STB3_160100.
I bought my board from BATRONIX at the end of February 2022.
Same as mine however I have had this STB-3 for many years, certainly 5+.
Maybe we need share the scope Setup files to diagnose if settings are different.
You can experiment with those by saving, then default the scope and then recall the setup file to return the scope to previous settings.
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You can experiment with those by saving, then default the scope and then recall the setup file to return the scope to previous settings.
When I reload the setup after resetting (Default) the scope I have to correct the SDA threshold in the decoder from 10.13V to 1.73V. In CH2 I have to change the attenuation from 1x to 10x. All other parameters are taken over properly.
The output of the I2C SDA signal remains unchanged.
Maybe there is a Siglent developer of the STP-3 reading the forum who can reproduce the behavior described by Martin72 and me when decoding the I2C signal.
At the moment the scope is not connected to the network. I will post the screenshots with my settings in the forum this weekend.
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When I reload the setup after resetting (Default) the scope I have to correct the SDA threshold in the decoder from 10.13V to 1.73V. In CH2 I have to change the attenuation from 1x to 10x.
Same here, on the HD...
Thresholds are somewhere after restart and the attenuation thing I also recognized it from time to time.
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I really don't know why you find basic I2C decoding difficult. :-//
New SDS2104X Plus.....didn't even set edge to falling and only added 2ms trigger Holdoff.
Select Decode and check it is set to I2C then assign channels and then adjust Thresholds.
It took longer to boot than make these decode settings....
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Does any of this apply to an SDS2104 NOT X? Probably not?
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I really don't know why you find basic I2C decoding difficult.
I, for example, do not.
With the Batronix signal, it is also only a matter of a few moments... ;)
I already had a stable trigger, see video.
A "stationary image" is not important for decoding, it is the thresholds for the signals.
You can try it out:
Turn the trigger level away and then press stop, no problem.
Do the same with the signal thresholds and nothing will be decoded.
At least I tried this with SPI and UART, it is unlikely that it should not apply to I²C.
So I don't think our problem is caused by the trigger.
Nevertheless, this was a good tip in the "manual" of the STB-3 board:
https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/user-guide/UM10204.pdf (https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/user-guide/UM10204.pdf)
(direct link to a pdf from NXP(Philips) )
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I really don't know why you find basic I2C decoding difficult.
I, for example, do not.
With the Batronix signal, it is also only a matter of a few moments... ;)
I already had a stable trigger, see video.
A "stationary image" is not important for decoding, it is the thresholds for the signals.
You can try it out:
Turn the trigger level away and then press stop, no problem.
Do the same with the signal thresholds and nothing will be decoded.
At least I tried this with SPI and UART, it is unlikely that it should not apply to I²C.
So I don't think our problem is caused by the trigger.
Nevertheless, this was a good tip in the "manual" of the STB-3 board:
https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/user-guide/UM10204.pdf (https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/user-guide/UM10204.pdf)
(direct link to a pdf from NXP(Philips) )
Batronix packets are all header without any payload......the last few bits in the packet that are constantly changing.
With simple decode trigger settings for STB-3 we only see the header as stable and to trigger on payload bits we must use a serial trigger.
I only Stop'ped that screenshot to have it all stable.
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I don't want to rule out the possibility that it's still my stupidity that's preventing me from getting it right.... ;)
Unfortunately, I won't have access to the board until tomorrow.
The signal is decoded to SIGLENT plus 4 random characters.
I always get NT plus 4 random character.
Does this have something to do with the trigger, I can't imagine.
But as written, I don't want to rule out my stupidity for this yet.
Tomorrow maybe.
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I always get NT plus 4 random character.
Same issue here. For decoding I used a saleae Logic Pro 8.
- Sampling Rate 500 MS/s
- Duration 60 s
I made some screeshots.
Correctly, I get "N" and "T" like on my Siglent SDS2000X Plus decoder. As an example, I find the "E" only in the random part.
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I always get NT plus 4 random character.
Same issue here. For decoding I used a saleae Logic Pro 8.
- Sampling Rate 500 MS/s
- Duration 60 s
I made some screeshots.
Correctly, I get "N" and "T" like on my Siglent SDS2000X Plus decoder. As an example, I find the "E" only in the random part.
Study your captures.
There are several incorrect waveforms.
I2C is an Idle High protocol yet the Saleae shows start and end waveforms all over the place. :-//
Go back to the STB-3 instructions and read each packet consists of 4 parts: W, Ack; header (always Siglent) and a payload of 4 characters.
With display settings we can eliminate the need to display Write and Ack and only the header and payload.
As I2C is Idle High, a falling edge DC trigger plus a packet width of holdoff is an appropriate trigger setting.
You can trigger on Clk or data but Clk is the more correct as we don't have a CS with I2C.
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Hi, just test it at work with 2ms holdoff time.
No chance.
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Study your captures.
There are several incorrect waveforms.
I2C is an Idle High protocol yet the Saleae shows start and end waveforms all over the place. :-//
Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I didn't make it |O.
The 2 ms holdoff time did not work for me either on my Siglent SDS2000X Plus.
I am convinced that my STB-3 is giving an incorrect I2C signal. Randomly I watched a Youtube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADYlDqKgI94&t=440s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADYlDqKgI94&t=440s)) where someone is also using the STB-3 and tadaa, same problem (07:18) 0x4E 0x54 0x5F 0xXX 0xXX 0xXX.
Question to the forum: Has anyone - besides tautech :) - ever been able to trigger the I2C signal on the STB-3 correctly?
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I am convinced that my STB-3 is giving an incorrect I2C signal.
Me too.
I had the time base in the ms range to generate 200 lines and had scrolled through them, it is always the same.
NT_XXXX and nothing else, even if the triggering would be fundamentally wrong, should appear alone by chance also times other values (S,I,G,L,E), it remains however always the same.
Also, my data signal looks different from that of tautech, see comparison picture.
I had written to Siglent 2 days ago, but have not yet received an answer.
Where the question would be anyway, what we do if the signal should actually be wrong.
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I am convinced that my STB-3 is giving an incorrect I2C signal.
Me too.
I had the time base in the ms range to generate 200 lines and had scrolled through them, it is always the same.
NT_XXXX and nothing else, even if the triggering would be fundamentally wrong, should appear alone by chance also times other values (S,I,G,L,E), it remains however always the same.
Also, my data signal looks different from that of tautech, see comparison picture.
Also having suspicions about your STB-3 and have asked Defpom if he could check his for us.
I had written to Siglent 2 days ago, but have not yet received an answer.
Where the question would be anyway, what we do if the signal should actually be wrong.
Please keep us informed as if we do have some problem with STB-3 it need be fixed and I'll be following this up with HQ to hopefully get a new flash/FW available for those whose STB-3 are seen to not be working correctly with I2C.
Meanwhile I did some more tests with SDS6000A, SDS1000HD and SDS1104X-E, all of which decoded as I expected.
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If I get time I can test over the weekend, I can test on the sds2(5)104x plus, sds1(2)104x-e, sds2(35)102, keysight dsox1(2)104, Micsig 300MHz (forgotten model no.)
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If I get time I can test over the weekend, I can test on the sds2(5)104x plus, sds1(2)104x-e, sds2(35)102, keysight dsox1(2)104, Micsig 300MHz (forgotten model no.)
That seems a lot of trouble when just one of your Siglents would indicate if your STB-3 works correctly with 12C.
I sense a decoding video in the making..... :-+
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Well.... here you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP9RzCaTHL4&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP9RzCaTHL4)
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;D
My STB-3 is a pin header version.
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;D
My STB-3 is a pin header version.
Well shit.... there goes that theory.
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;D
My STB-3 is a pin header version.
Well shit.... there goes that theory.
Yep.
Instead we need find out exactly what versions Martin and mathstudi have.
I think all but the last 4 characters of their SN# will give that info and maybe build dates too.
So let's build a list of those that work as expected and those that don't.
Mine's JXX170227GAA0010 (RoHS)
The underlined section is what we need.
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Yep.
Instead we need find out exactly what versions Martin and mathstudi have.
I think all but the last 4 characters of their SN# will give that info and maybe build dates too.
So let's build a list of those that work as expected and those that don't.
Mine's JXX170227GAA0010 (RoHS)
The underlined section is what we need.
Mine's JXX170227GAA0146 (RoHS)
I got the pin header version too.
I bought the STB-3 last year in February 2022 from BATRONIX in Germany.
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Mine I've bought in 02/2020 from Welectron.
Number will follow when back at home.
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My board...
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Hi,
To be on the safe side I checked all serial protocols on my STB-3 again. SPI, UART, LIN and CAN work as explained in the user manual. It is really only the I2C signal that is going crazy.
Cheers, mathstudi
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To cover all bases for I2C decode of STB-3, Martin, mathstudi, can you setup your scope to get the results you see and Save a State file (scope settings) and post it here please.
You will need to add a .txt file extension for the forum to accept it.
Then we can load that set up file into any scope to double check settings are as they should be.
TIA
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Wouldn't it be easier if you did it with your setup ?
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Wouldn't it be easier if you did it with your setup ?
Possibly however it won't reveal any incorrect settings you make.
Busy with another project ATM so later can upload a 2000X Plus or 1104X-E State file.
Unsure if you can use any State file in a 2000X HD, never tried.....something I should try but only have 1000X HD here and what's the worst that can happen that a Default can't fix. Then we have recovery files to fix any real problems.....
Think best we stick to the same model series for recalling State files.
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Possibly however it won't reveal any incorrect settings you make.
Understand this, but..
What should you be able to do wrong there...
Look again at my video, the clock is absolutely stable, more stable than the flank trigger in defpoms video.
And if you press stop, the trigger is out of the game.
Then it decodes from memory and that doesn't work, at least not for me.
You can also post your settings as screenshots, there are not so many.
More than the thresholds for clock and data, as well as the trigger setting you could not make.
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Wouldn't it be easier if you did it with your setup ?
Possibly however it won't reveal any incorrect settings you make.
Busy with another project ATM so later can upload a 2000X Plus or 1104X-E State Setup file.
Unsure if you can use any State Setup file in a 2000X HD, never tried.....something I should try but only have 1000X HD here and what's the worst that can happen that a Default can't fix. Then we have recovery files to fix any real problems.....
Think best we stick to the same model series for recalling State Setup files.
Edit: State files are for other instruments, not DSO's.
Attached is a SDS1104X-E Setup file for I2C decoding basic scope settings however not the actual Decode settings which need be checked/set to match and Threshold levels set correctly.
Set Decode = ON
I2C
CLK = Ch1 = 50% trigger
Data = Ch4
Use Save/Recall, Recall to load the below Setup file from USB
SetupI2C.1104X-E.xml is the file name so remove the .txt extension. (.xml extensions not supported on this forum)
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Here is my setup for the SDS2354X Plus and the STB-3 I2C Serial Decode:
Once with holdoff trigger (2 ms).
"Start Holdoff On" "Acq Start" or "Last Trig Time". Both times the same results.
After that I copied the trigger settings in the Decode Menu to the trigger using Protocol Copy, also here the same results.
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Here is my setup for the SDS2354X Plus and the STB-3 I2C Serial Decode with the SPL2016 Logic Probes.
"Start Holdoff On" "Acq Start" or "Last Trig Time". Both times the same results.
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Setups from my 2504HD...
Serial trigger I²C with Restart (this is the rockstable one), I²C with Start (and 5ms/div), Edge falling, 2ms Holdoff.
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Use Save/Recall, Recall to load the below Setup file from USB
SetupI2C.1104X-E.xml is the file name so remove the .txt extension. (.xml extensions not supported on this forum)
Test it now, same result as before, see pic...
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STB-3 I2C packet flaws reported to HQ. :popcorn:
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Just for the case:
The board has an Altera Max 10 FPGA and a 10pin Jtag header.
What would I need to read/program this ?
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Just for the case:
The board has an Altera Max 10 FPGA and a 10pin Jtag header.
What would I need to read/program this ?
Unknown yet however I have asked if a flash/FW is required to remedy.
So we wait.
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Just for the case:
The board has an Altera Max 10 FPGA and a 10pin Jtag header.
What would I need to read/program this ?
JTAG Blaster
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Does this mean that it's possible to run the telnet service on the newer firmware (1.5.2R2)? I don't understand how downgrading, configuring telnetd, and then updating again to a newer release will preserve the capability. Or am I reading this all wrong?
I'm currently on V1.3.9R6, and I'm loath to update to the 1.5.2 releases, and loose telnet and siglent_device_startup.sh capability.
In reply to -
Just received a SDS2104X Plus with V1.5.2R1, with disabled telnet. If you need telnet, the downgrade to 1.3.9R12 worked.
For some reason the telnet password no longer works, even after the downgrade (root/siglent_sds1000x_e), however to get around it just use telnetd -l /bin/sh in the siglent_device_startup.sh file, then it won't ask for any login details.
Updated then to 1.5.2R2, all good
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Does this mean that it's possible to run the telnet service on the newer firmware (1.5.2R2)?
No need to run a telnet session for any tricks.
More study required. ;)
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I'm keen to keep my proper timezone, and maintain the clock with NTP as I do today. Thus, the desire for a startup script, or equivalent. Haven't seen anything like that for the newer firmware versions.
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I'm keen to keep my proper timezone, and maintain the clock with NTP as I do today. Thus, the desire for a startup script, or equivalent. Haven't seen anything like that for the newer firmware versions.
You don't need any of that. As I said more study required.
All the later FW can be rolled back to earlier versions.
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Just for the case:
The board has an Altera Max 10 FPGA and a 10pin Jtag header.
What would I need to read/program this ?
Checksum of the file, for comparing, read out with intel quartus prime light and usb blaster.
Edit:
Here my first steps with the usb blaster and the software:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/fpga/which-jtag-blaster-for-altera-max-10/msg5042296/#msg5042296 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/fpga/which-jtag-blaster-for-altera-max-10/msg5042296/#msg5042296)
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Checksum of the file, for comparing, read out with intel quartus prime light and usb blaster.
I ordered my USB Blaster today from AliExpress. As soon as I get the USB blaster I will share my checksum.
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Just for the case:
The board has an Altera Max 10 FPGA and a 10pin Jtag header.
What would I need to read/program this ?
The file should be in the FW package, so you can get it from there.
Also, the FW upgrade script does the FPGA programming so you can also feed it with a different file.
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Just for the case:
The board has an Altera Max 10 FPGA and a 10pin Jtag header.
What would I need to read/program this ?
The file should be in the FW package, so you can get it from there.
Also, the FW upgrade script does the FPGA programming so you can also feed it with a different file.
This is for STB-3 or which there is no official/public FW. :(
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This is for STB-3 or which there is no official/public FW. :(
Ohhhh... oopss... didn't follow the whole thread flow.
But now you're trying to use the board to test also extraction/programming of FPGA contents?? That will make them increase the price! ;D
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But now you're trying to use the board to test also extraction/programming of FPGA contents??
No, there are some faulty STD-3 out there and it seems only Jtag can fix them....if Siglent will share the file with us.
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Bug report / feature requests moved here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/msg5100234/#msg5100234).
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Checksum of the file, for comparing, read out with intel quartus prime light and usb blaster.
Same checksum here. :-//
I would now be very interested in the checksum of tautech's and TheDefpom's STB-3 demo board firmware - would that be possible to post? :clap: :clap: Perhaps a fellow reader would be interested in posting the checksum of the STB-3 demo board firmware. :clap:
Any news from Siglent regarding firmware for Martin72's and my board? 8)
Have a good weekend all
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I know this isn't going to be fantastically accurate blah blah blah, but I was curious about at what limit the scope would read the frequency accurately above 500MHz. I know the scope is usually within the -3db range up to 600ish MHz, but I got a TinySA Ultra and wanted to mess around.
My scope is reading frequency up to 841MHz accurately before it starts to drop off. Slightly higher will be off by less than 1kHz. If I go too high, the frequency gets further and further off. 900MHz shows up as 828MHz, 1GHz in the 700MHz range etc.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1897761;image)
The TinySA Ultra is connected to the SDS2504XP with a 1 meter SMA to BNC cable.
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See also here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/used-1ghz-rf-generator-aim-tti-tgr1040-is-it-worth-it/msg5063833/#msg5063833 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/used-1ghz-rf-generator-aim-tti-tgr1040-is-it-worth-it/msg5063833/#msg5063833)
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See also here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/used-1ghz-rf-generator-aim-tti-tgr1040-is-it-worth-it/msg5063833/#msg5063833 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/used-1ghz-rf-generator-aim-tti-tgr1040-is-it-worth-it/msg5063833/#msg5063833)
Nice! I had the same results when skipping by 100MHz, I would guess you can get around mid 800s also.
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May someone know how to enter a first order LPF in the math function ? (I want to use Vi(1-e(-wot)) but was unlucky to find a way ?
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I join the question, because I would like to calculate the sine out of a sinusoidal 10Khz PWM and display it.
So it would have to be a low-pass function with 1khz -3dB.
With the digital filters (not available with the 2k+) one does not even come close to such a "low" down.
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I am enjoying my SDS2104X @ 500MHz, except I want to replace the noisy fan (project for another day). It's been a good scope for my home and work.
However I am wondering if the AWG bandwidth is very limited because I ran a RG-316 cable from the AWG output to one of the channel inputs and measured the square wave output. It looks very rounded at anything above 1MHz. I tried using a probe to measure direct to the AWG output and it looks the same. The rise/fall times make the waveform look more like a sine wave. See attached, one is at 5MHz (half of the 10MHz upper limit) and one at 7.5MHz. I've tried toggling the impedances between 1Mohm and 50ohm to no avail. Is it just bandwidth or am I doing something awry?
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Is it just bandwidth or am I doing something awry?
Just normal result.
Inbuilt AWG spec is responsible as Rise and Fall times are not fast. What you see is normal and mentioned several times before in this thread.
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Speaking of the fan, I want to replace that too. I'm assuming a nice Noctua fan would be good. Has anybody replaced the fan? If so, what fan did you use?
Thanks,
Josh
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Speaking of the fan, I want to replace that too. I'm assuming a nice Noctua fan would be good. Has anybody replaced the fan? If so, what fan did you use?
TBH you should consult Martin about his HD and how quiet they are.
IIRC they have a smart fan and you could accomplish noise reductions just slowing it down some rather than shotgunning a good fan out.
Went through this exercise with a customer and SDS1104X-E and he got a similar spec Noctua and gained little if anything. The fans that Siglent select are pretty good.
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I'm assuming a nice Noctua fan would be good.
Sometimes it's not the fan itself, but just turbulence in the airflow. In those cases without redesigning the entire cabinet and re-engineering the airflow path no fan will help.
Noctua fans are nice, butt they can't solve all problems.
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Speaking of the fan, I want to replace that too. I'm assuming a nice Noctua fan would be good. Has anybody replaced the fan? If so, what fan did you use?
Thanks,
Josh
Hi Josh,
Starting from here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3795722/#msg3795722 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3795722/#msg3795722)
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Speaking of the fan, I want to replace that too. I'm assuming a nice Noctua fan would be good. Has anybody replaced the fan? If so, what fan did you use?
I did that replacement with a Noctua NF-A9 FLX, 3-Pin 92mm. It does a wonderful job and the noise is gone. I also used the included Low-Noise-Adapter (1600/1250/1050rpm) and run it at the lowest possible velocity. No overheating so far...
There is only a 2-pin socket in the DSO, so I just replaced the 3-pin plug on the cable with a 2-pin version. Black/Red wire only.
... no hassle in case of a possible warranty repair, if you remove the sticker at the bottom of the scope carefully.
The noise of the original fan was one thing, but even worse, it ran at a speed that exactly hit the harmonics of the metal base of the scope, so I could enjoy an additional humming sound. ::)
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Speaking of the fan, I want to replace that too. I'm assuming a nice Noctua fan would be good. Has anybody replaced the fan? If so, what fan did you use?
Thanks,
Josh
Hi Josh,
Starting from here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3795722/#msg3795722 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3795722/#msg3795722)
Ha! I'm not surprised it's your fault I bought that crimp set. 🤣
Your post made me want to change the fan back then, but I waited because of the warranty which ends in December.
My fan noise problem isn't just the noise level, it's the clunkiness of the fan itself. It sounds like a bad fan to me. It's not terrible, but y'all know how it is.
I did that replacement with a Noctua NF-A9 FLX, 3-Pin 92mm. It does a wonderful job and the noise is gone. I also used the included Low-Noise-Adapter (1600/1250/1050rpm) and run it at the lowest possible velocity. No overheating so far...
There is only a 2-pin socket in the DSO, so I just replaced the 3-pin plug on the cable with a 2-pin version. Black/Red wire only.
... no hassle in case of a possible warranty repair, if you remove the sticker at the bottom of the scope carefully.
The noise of the original fan was one thing, but even worse, it ran at a speed that exactly hit the harmonics of the metal base of the scope, so I could enjoy an additional humming sound. ::)
Thanks, looks like you and Martin used similar fan models. That makes it pretty easy.
Thanks,
Josh
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If you want to go a little further with a fan replacement mod, here is what I ended up doing with my SDS2104X plus.
As others have noted, the stock fan has a very unpleasant sound for me, with a "ticking" type sound that really grates on my nerves. It was always a notable relief whenever I turned off the scope in my otherwise quiet lab.
I bought a Noctua NF-A9 PWM fan that runs at 2000RPM @12V. The stock fan runs at 1600RPM, and was actually quieter than the Noctua at 2000RPM. I first used the Low-Noise-Adapter that came with the Noctua to lower the speed to 1600RPM, and the noise was then about equivalent to my ears. However, the characteristics of the noise were much better. More white noise, and no "ticking".
Not good enough though, and not really worth the swap in my mind, so I went further.
I wanted full PWM control, but the scope hardware does not support that. I saw other posts of folks using a small PWM controllers, so I picked one of those, and dived in.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07L1DZMKS?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07L1DZMKS?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details)
This little gadget allows you to set the baseline duty-cycle, and a linear extrapolation between two start/end temperatures. I had shell access to the scope (via telnet), and was able to collect temperature data from two internal sensors, and the NCT thermistor that came with the PWM controller.
/sys/devices/soc0/amba/e0004000.i2c/i2c-0/0-0048/hwmon/hwmon0/temp1_input
/sys/devices/soc0/amba/f8007100.adc/iio:device0/in_temp0_raw
I can't speak to the absolute interpretation of these sensor readings, but I do believe the relative values are viable, and they track with the reported temperatures in the "Developer" menu for temperatures.
I first baselined the stock fan as it warmed up in my 20C lab, and ran some FFTs, and other processing to warm it up a bit more. I then swapped in the Noctua fan with LNA (no PWM), to try an apples to apples comparison. At steady state, the Noctua fan kept things cooler by 2-3 degrees C.
I then installed the PWM fan controller, and started playing around with various settings, and monitoring the temperatures. I found what I figured was the optimal settings, that didn't allow the temps to reach more than ~5 degrees C over the stock setup.
It was quieter, but not really by much. Still a lot noisier than I wanted. While I was taking things apart and putting them together, I discovered that the majority of the noise was really coming from the air whistling through the Aluminum intake and plastic exhaust vents that the fan was sandwiched between. At that point, I decided to kiss my warranty goodby. :(
I took off the aluminum cover, cut-out the grid, and also cutout the plastic exhaust grid on the back of the scope ::)
A little more tweaking of the PWM settings, and I was finally happy. It really is quiet now. The majority of the residual noise is from the various intake vents around the perimeter of the scope housing. Not willing to do anything about that, and it's not bothering me at all. I no longer have that relieved feeling when I turn it off, and barely notice when it is on. The steady state temperatures are about 2-3 degrees C higher than the stock fan in a 20-21C room. The PWM runs at about 55% duty-cycle most of the time, and runs up to 65% if it's really working. Still has lots of head room if the ambient temperatures get hotter. Given that the scope is rated to 40C ambient, I running a little warmer is just fine.
Below are some pictures of the mod. Notice where the thermistor is mounted on a small piece of the original aluminum grid. I have some plots of the temperature data if someone is interested.
Craig
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The weirdest thing happened. I snapped my fingers, and then the fans were swapped. Warranty sticker still happy, because magic.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1905606;image)
Much quieter, and no more annoying clicky noise.
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Warranty sticker still happy, because magic.
Hehehehe.... ;)
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So if these are fully upgraded to 500MHz, and you have a fully upgraded sdg6000, can you do a Bode plot up to 500MHz ? Or is it the 120MHz I saw mentioned before.
I'm just doing my 1st Bode plot, I never tried for some reason on my 1204X-E. I set my AWG to 50R output, and CH copying on. I used CH2/4 on my sds2104, w/ 50R inout on CH2 as DUT input from the AWG. I set CH2 to 1x, IDK if that matters, it's a regular BNC to BNC 50ohm cable. I still have 10x and 1Meg for the CH4 10x probe.
It's not finished all the runs, but the amplitude of this audio amp is about what I wanted, but the phase plot is more like a dirty sine wave, going between back and forth between 180deg and -180deg over the whole 120MHz span. IDK what that's all about.
Yeah and my scope has the fan ticking sound like small gears turning. I don't notice it too much for now, I better stop thinking about it.
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It's not finished all the runs, but the amplitude of this audio amp is about what I wanted, but the phase plot is more like a dirty sine wave, going between back and forth between 180deg and -180deg over the whole 120MHz span. IDK what that's all about.
Check your setup. Meaningful phase measurements can only be done if the travel distance is the same for both the DUT and reference signal.
In other words: the length of the cable between generator and reference input on the scope has to match the sum of cables from generator to DUT and from DUT to DSO and the travel distance of the signal within the DUT has to be allowed for on top of that.
EDIT: You can do just a Vout measurement (instead of Vout/Vin) and see if the result matches your expectations then.
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I'm using the BNC to BNC that came with the AWG, from AWG CH1 to scope CH2, and the BNC to alligator clips, about the same length, thats going from AWG CH2 to a 4" wire, then the DUT input. All ground leads are on the same spot, a gnd wire feeding the breadboard.
Yeah I think some of the magnitudes are off too, there's some peaks and dips that are probably just reflections or whatever.
Here's a snapshot, the shape around 1Kz is about what I expected, the input was 0.1Vpp in the Bodeplot menu, and it's with Vout/Vin. In LTSpice, with 50mV as AC ref, I have way more gain, like +40dB at 1kHz, not -26dB like the sds has. So IDK what I'm doing.
I know the 2 stage amp circuit works as I wanted, (except it can also act as a 3.2kHz 3.5Vpp phase shift oscillator on the breadboard w/ no input attached, and the 10x probe on the output....)
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That's just garbage.
Go back to KISS principles.
Use just 1 ch from Arb and Tee it, 1 to scope as ref and 1 to DUT In.
DUT Out to 2nd DSO channel and everything 1x attenuation 50 Ohm.
Be sure to assign channels in Bode plot menus correctly and you should get a vastly different result.
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Yeah I don't have any T's or terminator's yet, and on the breadboard I just feed the signal right into the coupling cap, no 47 R resisitor there, (I don't own any 50's), and there's no output load beside the 10x probe.
In the menu DUT input was CH2, and DUT output is CH4
Now I'll check the way I used to do sweep checks, which is just sweep the AWG, with scope set on roll mode or some long time base w/ acquisition, and get the envelope.
That works, and with 200us timebase, the screen update speed is ok for looking at FFT, sweeping 10Hz up to 1MHz, over 10sec's. And For 10mVpp in, I get ~ 2Vpp max out, 0dB out , and that's what the FFT says too. So hopefully everything is working right.
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AWG Channel coupling is not precise and needs be trimmed with a Phase adjustment when using both channels for Bode plot Ref and DUT In.
Try everything set to HiZ then.
How high frequency do you need sweep ?
The LF range takes the most time to sweep so trimming each end of the frequency in settings will speed getting results.
TBH the first tries I had were garbage too so I went looking for a simple BP RC filter design and adjusted Bode settings until the correct result was given.
Look here and a few posts later on the next page:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1435854/#msg1435854 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1435854/#msg1435854)
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Hi everyone!
Owner of SDS2000X Plus could tell me which are the dimensions of the oscilloscope?
Thinking about upgrade my current DS1054Z to this Osci....so far for the price is one of the best option you can get.
Thanks!!
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Hi,
352x224x111mm(LxHxW), according to the free avaible datasheet.. ;)
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Thanks Martin!! I missed completely the datasheet, I was focused on online specs... :palm: :palm:
Regards!
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Hi everyone!
Owner of SDS2000X Plus could tell me which are the dimensions of the oscilloscope?
Thinking about upgrade my current DS1054Z to this Osci....so far for the price is one of the best option you can get.
Thanks!!
Dimensions are on page 9 of the quick start guide: https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2019/12/SDS2000X-Plus_QuickStart_QS0102XP_E01A.pdf
You'll love the scope. I didn't personally like the 1054Z, so I switched from that to the SDS1104X-E before eventually upgrading to the SDS2504XP.
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Hi everyone!
Owner of SDS2000X Plus could tell me which are the dimensions of the oscilloscope?
See P16 of the datasheet:
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/22_09_19/SDS2000X%20Plus_Datasheet_EN01C.pdf
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I've been thinking (too much... ;)) about my next scope to get, and the SDS2000X plus is probably the strongest contender in my price range. But I now stumbled upon a UI detail that seems quite annoying. Hence I am wondering whether that's still "state of the art" in the current firmware, and whether there are similar delays in other interactions with the scope.
Youtube user Uni-Byte shows how one can capture a full memory buffer of data at a slow timebase, and zoom in and pan around to look into details. Nice, and probably how I would intuitively look at data much of the time. (Rather than using Zoom or History mode.) But as he shifts the displayed trace section left and right, there is always a very noticeable delay before the new trace segment gets redrawn. Shown from approx. 1:30 onwards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qjG0CvRcek (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qjG0CvRcek)
Is that the status quo using current firmware? Does it work more smoothly if you enable Zoom mode? Are there other situations where screen redraw becomes so noticeable?
Thanks for your observations!
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Is that the status quo using current firmware? Does it work more smoothly if you enable Zoom mode? Are there other situations where screen redraw becomes so noticeable?
It is the status quo and it is a property of this platform.
Up to 10 Mpts you don't see any delays. Beyond that, there is this slight delay as seen in the video, of course also in zoom mode.
The reason is some limitation of the access window to the acquisition memory and/or the size of the internal fast RAM. This means a total of at least 80 MB since the 10 Mpts are per channel and this is true for the 10 bit mode (which makes the entire acquisition memory 16 bits wide) as well, so we get 20 MB per channel.
It's not a big deal though. Most of the time, 10 Mpts will be plenty. In the situations where we need more, we need to use more efficient access techniques to the detail of interest anyway. Instead of scrolling all the way through the buffer, we use zoom mode and just drag the selection rectangle in the main window. Once you've tried that, you'll never touch the horizontal position control again ;)
We don't have that limitation in the SDS2000X HD, hence no visible delay even at 200 Mpts.
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Up to 10 Mpts you don't see any delays. Beyond that, there is this slight delay as seen in the video, of course also in zoom mode.
The reason is some limitation of the access window to the acquisition memory and/or the size of the internal fast RAM. This means a total of at least 80 MB since the 10 Mpts are per channel and this is true for the 10 bit mode (which makes the entire acquisition memory 16 bits wide) as well, so we get 20 MB per channel.
Thank you for the confirmation and explanation! It reads like something they could work around by speculatively pre-fetching a screenful of data to the left and right of the current window into fast memory, to be prepared in case the user wants to look there? But I agree, not a big deal if the redraw pause only occurs at very large total buffer sizes.
There is no related delay in real-time (Run) mode, right? I.e. if I move the trace position horizontally or vertically in Run mode, the trace will follow without lag?
We don't have that limitation in the SDS2000X HD, hence no visible delay even at 200 Mpts.
Oh yes, that would be the "no compromises" choice for me... But I don't think I can justify that expense for a hobby tool/toy; the 2000X plus is already pushing the range I feel comfortable with.
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There is no related delay in real-time (Run) mode, right? I.e. if I move the trace position horizontally or vertically in Run mode, the trace will follow without lag?
Why would you expect it to be better in Run mode - after all Stop mode should be the easier one?
And so it is.
- We don't have any delays in the vertical direction, no matter what scope model and regardless if in Run or Stop.
- We don't have any delay moving the originally visible screen content in horizontal direction. But there opens a gap where new content has to be added - and this always happens after a short delay in Run mode, independent of the record length. There has to be some delay - after all this data has to be acquired first!
- On SDS2000X Plus we have the same behaviour also in Stop mode at record lengths >10 Mpts.
- On SDS2000X HD we get the gaps filled without visible delay in Stop mode, no matter the record length (if there is more data available, that is).
- In Zoom mode, even during Run, we have the same behavior as in Stop mode, i.e. only a delay filling the gap on the SDS2000X Plus and only for records longer than 10 Mpts.
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Why would you expect it to be better in Run mode - after all Stop mode should be the easier one?
I had expected Run mode to be unaffected since, in my understanding, it only acquires a screenful of data anyway -- hence I thought the "deep memory" access with its wait time would not apply.
Thank you very much for the details in any case! It's not a severe limitation, but still a bit disappointing to bump into things my measly DS1054Z does better... It may be an indication of Siglent's focus on powerful analysis, where interactive viewing and manipulation occasionally take the back seat? Like with the lack of a horizontal vernier, which also was a bit surprising to me.
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Thank you very much for the details in any case! It's not a severe limitation, but still a bit disappointing to bump into things my measly DS1054Z does better...
That 1054Z doesn't do anything better; it's a toy by comparison. The delays that exist on the 2000XP series are only for long acquisition over 10Mpts. The 1054Z max is 24Mpts total (in Deep Memory mode) compared to the 2000XP's 200Mpts. The only reason the 1054Z might seem fast (it's not) is that it simply isn't capable of acquiring that much data.
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That 1054Z doesn't do anything better; it's a toy by comparison. The delays that exist on the 2000XP series are only for long acquisition over 10Mpts. The 1054Z max is 24Mpts total (in Deep Memory mode) compared to the 2000XP's 200Mpts. The only reason the 1054Z might seem fast (it's not) is that it simply isn't capable of acquiring that much data.
I did not mean to be provocative there, sorry if I touched a nerve. Yes, obviously the DS1054Z is a much more limited scope. But if I acquire a full 24 MPts of data and then zoom in, it does let me pan back and forth without redraw delays. Which is why I kind of took this behavior for granted and was a bit surprised to see the delays in the SDS2000X+. No worries, it's not a deal breaker! :)
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I did not mean to be provocative there, sorry if I touched a nerve. Yes, obviously the DS1054Z is a much more limited scope. But if I acquire a full 24 MPts of data and then zoom in, it does let me pan back and forth without redraw delays. Which is why I kind of took this behavior for granted and was a bit surprised to see the delays in the SDS2000X+. No worries, it's not a deal breaker! :)
lol, it's not you. I had the 1054Z briefly and absolutely hated it. I switched to an SDS1104X-E and was much happier before switching to the SDS2504XP, which has only improved...everything. Though I'm still waiting on that firmware update to get rid of the annoying notice left on the screen after screen captures. 🤣
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Why would you expect it to be better in Run mode - after all Stop mode should be the easier one?
I had expected Run mode to be unaffected since, in my understanding, it only acquires a screenful of data anyway -- hence I thought the "deep memory" access with its wait time would not apply.
Like most other DSOs, the SDS2000X stops acquisition while the users move the trace around on the screen. It resumes after a short timeout and only then the gap can be filled. By contrast, in Stop mode acquisition is not running anyway, all the data is already there, hence also no delay (except for the data exceeding 10 Mpts in the SDS2000X Plus).
Thank you very much for the details in any case! It's not a severe limitation, but still a bit disappointing to bump into things my measly DS1054Z does better... It may be an indication of Siglent's focus on powerful analysis, where interactive viewing and manipulation occasionally take the back seat? Like with the lack of a horizontal vernier, which also was a bit surprising to me.
We often see such complaints.
Users that come from some old analog CRT-oscilloscope - or older digital scopes - are disappointed that with their shiny new DSO they can't just enable X-Y mode without bothering with the timebase (which is just disabled on an analog scope in X-Y mode).
And why can't they have their beloved alternate trigger (to watch two unrelated traces at the same time) and why the heck isn't there an ETS-mode available, as even the old Rigol DS1052E had?
We cannot even be surprised, because one needs to know a bit about the internals of oscilloscopes to understand the reasons why progress does not always mean just additional features but can also lead to different solutions. Sometimes it looks like a step back, but almost always a rationale can be found for it.
The most important aspect for any UI is a timely reaction on user actions. You get this on the SDS2000X Plus: as soon as you try to move the trace, no matter what direction, and no matter whether you use a touch gesture or the position knob for this, the trace will follow almost instantly. It's just the gap that needs a little time to be filled under certain circumstances.
Folks have complained that the DS1000Z cannot even move the traces vertically without delayed jumps, so it's hard to believe that it can do it smoothly in the horizontal direction. Maybe it does when you use a fixed memory length, so that no new acquisition is required. But in a setting like this, an SDS2000X HD renders smooth and gapless (and without any jumps) of course.
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We often see such complaints.
Users that come from some old analog CRT-oscilloscope - or older digital scopes - are disappointed that with their shiny new DSO they can't just enable X-Y mode without bothering with the timebase (which is just disabled on an analog scope in X-Y mode).
And why can't they have their beloved alternate trigger (to watch two unrelated traces at the same time) and why the heck isn't there an ETS-mode available, as even the old Rigol DS1052E had?
We cannot even be surprised, because one needs to know a bit about the internals of oscilloscopes to understand the reasons why progress does not always mean just additional features but can also lead to different solutions. Sometimes it looks like a step back, but almost always a rationale can be found for it.
That feels a bit unfair and like you are writing me off as "uninformed and stubborn old-timer". I am not comparing to analog scopes, but to other digital scopes which sometimes make different design choices.
I am not saying one choice is better than the other, but there still seem to be two schools of thought -- let's call them the LeCroy vs. Keysight school. While they have come closer to each other over the years, one seems to focus on "detailed and powerful analysis after careful setup and acquisition", while the other puts more weight on "moving around interactively and exploring, to figure out what's going on in the DUT".
It does not really matter to the user whether limitations in one or the other flavor of scope are due to fundamental architectural constraints, or due to the desire not to overload the UI with too many options, or simply due to limited capacity in the software development teams. In the end there are some limitations, it's good to be aware of them, and be aware of one's preferences when making a purchasing decision.
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That feels a bit unfair and like you are writing me off as "uninformed and stubborn old-timer".
Sorry - I absolutely didn't mean it that way. I don't know your history and have never assumed anything.
All I wanted to say is that we've seen many complaints about a new instrument, just because it is a little (or even fundamentally) different in certain regards than what we are used to, so that they might lack some beloved feature (or we need to adapt to different habits). And it happened to me too.
I just gave a few examples of perceived (or sometimes real) drawbacks in modern instruments, that come with new technologies, like real-time oscilloscopes (which require not only a high max. sample rate but also deep memory) with fully digital trigger engines (which has made ETS unavailable). And of course there are other things like alternate trigger, which died with the introduction of digital trigger engines, even though it would still be possible to implement it - just with an effort so high that it just isn't worth it.
Yes, in the end it doesn't matter for the user. The user wants certain features and doesn't care why they cannot get it in certain instruments. This will of course affect their choices.
Apart from all that I still stand by my statement that it's hard to believe that a DS1000Z of all things, where lots of people have complained about the laggy trace positioning (and I've even seen videos demonstrating that) should outperform the SDS2000X Plus. Even though - have you watched the video you've linked before any further? The humble little SDS1000X-E had no lag when filling the gap. According to the explanation I've given earlier, the max. record length of only 14 Mpts is below this mystical 20 MB/channel limit, so no surprise here.
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If you aren't going to use the scope, or other Siglent equipment for a few days or more, is there any downside to fully unplugging them ? I thought I noticed the clock didn't change when I had it unplugged (2104x-p). I don't care about that. I think I read there's no internal battery ?
Sometimes I'll go a month or longer without using a scope or AWG. And I don't like leaving them plugged in. My SDS1204x-e is basically in storage since I got the 2104xp. Should I plug it in sometimes ? Is there any ROM or something that needs power once and a while ? (my poor old 1980's scopes, I haven't used them in 3yrs, I better use the variac when powering them up next, just to be safer)
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If you aren't going to use the scope, or other Siglent equipment for a few days or more, is there any downside to fully unplugging them ? I thought I noticed the clock didn't change when I had it unplugged (2104x-p). I don't care about that. I think I read there's no internal battery ?
No, these have a RTC with IIRC a CR2032 coin cell.
Sometimes I'll go a month or longer without using a scope or AWG. And I don't like leaving them plugged in. My SDS1204x-e is basically in storage since I got the 2104xp. Should I plug it in sometimes ? Is there any ROM or something that needs power once and a while ? (my poor old 1980's scopes, I haven't used them in 3yrs, I better use the variac when powering them up next, just to be safer)
Nothing to worry yourself over on these, no RTC and if for some dumb reason they boot freeze we have the means to recover them.
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If you aren't going to use the scope, or other Siglent equipment for a few days or more, is there any downside to fully unplugging them ?
My scope, bench meters, etc... are all on a power strip that gets turned on only when they're in use. I've never had any issues. I don't want to waste money powering standby modes like my LCR that likes to have a red light on the power switch and never be 100% powered off.
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Ok thanks, if I cleaned up a bit, I can fit both scopes on the desk, but in general I just don't need all those channels.
OK so no clock on the 1204x-e.
I read on the 2104x-p you can change trace colors. When in FFT, can you change either the trace color or the dB and Hz overlay ? Right now both are white or near white, and overlap too easily. I'd change the axis numbers to something darker.
Yeah I do the same sometimes. We don't get much lightning, but it's safer, and then the PSU isn't wasting away either.
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Following up on the discussion of waveform update rates which has started in the 2000X HD thread, but should really be here (to the extent it refers to the 2000X+).
I've identified several bugs:
- In Dots display mode, the selection of x versus sin(x)/x should be irrelevant. Other scopes based on the same platform show a correct behavior in this regard.
- Waveform update rate generally is a bit on the slow side, and there is a huge difference between x interpolation and sin(x)/x reconstruction. This problem does not exist in an e.g. SDS6000A.
- Auto Trigger does not work as expected. it is slow and erratic if there's no signal present, e.g. for noise measurements.
- Mains Line Trigger does not work as expected. it only provides about 9 triggers per second on a 50 Hz grid.
All the above bug reports have been accepted by Siglent, entered into their bug-database and will be corrected with the next firmware.
Have these indeed been corrected? I looked through the firmware release notes (https://www.siglenteu.com/download/12667/), and could not find any relevant changes mentioned in the 2022 and 2023 releases.
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Siglent (and not only Siglent) is known for not listing all improvements. ;)
The only thing that helps is to try it out, I might be able to do it tomorrow at work, but I can't promise.
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I kept getting distracted by it today, so I took one with me now, over the weekend. 8)
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All the above bug reports have been accepted by Siglent, entered into their bug-database and will be corrected with the next firmware.
Have these indeed been corrected? I looked through the firmware release notes (https://www.siglenteu.com/download/12667/), and could not find any relevant changes mentioned in the 2022 and 2023 releases.
Well, as Martin says, Siglent does not always list all changes, bug fixes and even new features in the history. As a volunteer I cannot know the exact strategy, but I think that only bug reports and feature requests from customers are listed, whereas internal reported bug reports / change requests are omitted. And it seems that they sometimes treat my reports as “intern”, even when I’ve published the fact that these reports exist.
On the other hand, I’ve never got a confirmation that anything has been fixed in this regard. Instead of asking, I thought I’d better find out by myself. The most important conclusion first: it turns out that the old tables published by rf-loop are still valid and I get quite similar results.
The original complaint was that there shouldn’t be any difference between x-interpolation and Sinc-reconstruction in dots display mode. Back then, this was true for the SDS2000X HD and the SDS6000. But in the meantime, quite unexpectedly things have turned the other way round: now at least the SDS2000X HD behaves the same as the SDS2000X Plus.
So there is a difference – where does it come from?
Here’s my educated guess: I’ve stated before, that we still need Sinc reconstruction for the digital trigger path. Back when I reported this bug, I’ve already suspected that the folks at Siglent have experimented with variable trigger handling, where they let the users decide whether they want (or need) a full Sinc reconstruction or can make do with a simple x-interpolation. If we make that choice for the display mode, everything seems clear: if we can live with the coarse and often incorrect result of an x-interpolation on the screen, then we shouldn’t need Sinc for the exact trigger point either. X-interpolation would have little performance advantage, if Sinc is always used in parallel for the trigger path. Furthermore, if we place the trigger at the vertical center of a sine, there will be no difference anyway. The same goes for most other standard waveforms.
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now at least the SDS2000X HD behaves the same as the SDS2000X Plus.
Beautyful...
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Acclimating the SDS2104X+, maybe tomorrow when time allows I could measure the wfms/s.
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The original complaint was that there shouldn’t be any difference between x-interpolation and Sinc-reconstruction in dots display mode. Back then, this was true for the SDS2000X HD and the SDS6000. But in the meantime, quite unexpectedly things have turned the other way round: now at least the SDS2000X HD behaves the same as the SDS2000X Plus.
Here (tiny) example about SDS2000X HD
[Image removed]
Revised new image is added to SDS2000X HD thread
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-hd-12bit-(published-for-chinese-domestic-market-only)/msg5176800/#msg5176800 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-hd-12bit-(published-for-chinese-domestic-market-only)/msg5176800/#msg5176800)
(this is tiny "sample" from big table about wfm/s what include also Sequence mode and include also some different memory settings and also channels in use (other than just one alone).
But I can not publish this table where is more things yet because I have not revised it after some FW changes and this is very time consuming work specially with Sequence mode for find not average speed but very importantly maximum guaranteed speed because also it have or may have some small speed variations during Sequence)
Only this tiny part of table is revised. (now also in right place: SDS2000X HD thread)
And yes, also using display mode dots, speed have some differeces if Sinc is on or off. (and of course Sinc do not manipulate sample dots vertical values and do not add interpolated dots between true dots.)
But as we know also in dots mode trigger position need interpolate between true samples but I do not want speculate details...
ETA: removed image and better image added to SDS2000X HD thread.
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Today at work, before I decided to take the SDS2104X+ with me, I had started with 5ns/div.
But I have to repeat that, as I said, too distracted.
Here is an example:
20ns/div: Sinc:
20048wfms/s, vector.
20139wfms/s dot.
x:
71103wfms/s dot.
20164wfms/s vector.
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Acclimating the SDS2104X+, maybe tomorrow when time allows I could measure the wfms/s.
It's not going to like being that close to the Rigol!!
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Here the tablet for one channel active, normal acquisiton.
Maybe I could make another table with 2 ch active, depends on the free time and monday I must took the scope back to work.
Wfms/s were measured with the DHO804, avg values taken.
Scope was bought in 2022, firmware is not the newest but in my opnion the last two after this version wouldn´t have any effect.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1931748;image)
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Here the tablet for one channel active, normal acquisiton.
Maybe I could make another table with 2 ch active, depends on the free time and monday I must took the scope back to work.
Wfms/s were measured with the DHO804, avg values taken.
Scope was bought in 2022, firmware is not the newest but in my opnion the last two after this version wouldn´t have any effect.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1931748;image)
Are you sure it measure whole average or inside acquisition burst speed average. I ask because your numbers are higher than my. My numbers are always whole long term average until noted some other.
My data from SDS2000X Plus (HW05-05, FW1.5.2R2) was for 50ns/div input 600mVpp 5MHz, zero offset.
Dots, int x: 120 500 wfm/s
Vect, int Sinc or x: 19 540 wfm/s
(inside burst averages are higher)
Example when I measure wfm/s values I use external oscilloscope but also external counter (usually HP53131A) and enough long gate.
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Hi,
I used the rigol scope to measure and then the average value from its measurement statistics.
I don't know to what extent you can trust the frequency measurement of the rigol, as it is only burst packets that come from the trigger out of the siglent.
As a counter I would have the function of the SDG2122X, I would have to see if the gate can be set to a corresponding length.
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STB-3 I2C packet flaws reported to HQ. :popcorn:
Anything new, Rob ?
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One way to measure wfms/s is to put other scope at 100ms/div and measure number of pulses..
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And one other way is use oscilloscope itself.
Normal always background working history buffer have time stamps.
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Sounds very interesting, must have a look at it on the forthcoming weekend when I could take the SDS2104X+ back at home again.
We have six of them, but they are constantly in use, so I have to take it back to work tomorrow.
Too bad. ;)
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If you change the timebase the trigger position will off the display or closer to the 0s position but this can be addressed by using a fixed position setting where you can place it anywhere and it will remain there at any timebase setting. Utility>Reference Pos
Thanks so much for posting that note. I was sure that my SDS2014X Plus could do this, but for the life of me couldn't discover how to do it.
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One way to measure wfms/s is to put other scope at 100ms/div and measure number of pulses..
Exactly. It should be pointed out, that frequency measurement on the scope is not the same as a frequency counter - and even the trigger frequency counter is different. You can get totally confusing results by using the scope's frequency measurements.
To avoid this, you should use a 100 ms/div timebase, thus implicitely defining a 1 second time gate, and then measure the number of periods - this is your true frequency as it would be measured by a frequency counter at 1 second gate time.
Frequency measurement on the other hand has different strategies depending on the model. The bottom models like SDS1000X-E would still yield usable results because they do just what I've described above: they count the numbers of edges and divide it by the time span corresponding to the record length.
Higher class instruments - those that are able to measure CCJ (Cycle to Cycle Jitter) - have a different strategy; they measure each individual period separately and then provide the mean value of that. Why would there be a noticable difference, you might ask?
At least the Siglent scopes tend to process trigger events not evenly spaced, but there is often a double trigger at maximum speed, followed by a long break. If you simply count all trigger pulses over one second, then you have the true trigger rate. But if you use the frequency measurement of e.g. an SDS2000 for this task, the instrument sees one very short cycle followed by a looong cycle and presents the average of the two. thus you will get the average between the max. trigger rate (>100 kHz) and half the actual trigger rate.
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Here's some demonstration of a common exercise which cannot be solved without deep measurements.
Imagine a 16 bit PWM based on 20 MHz clock frequency. This results in a rather slow 304 Hz PWM signal that can resolve 65536 different levels of duty cycle. To analyze this, we should be able to have accurate time measurements with at least 0.001525878 % resolution
Let’s see if the SDS2000X Plus can do the job.
Timebase is set to 500 µs/div, so that we can capture at least one full PWM period.
At 2 GSa/s, this results in 10 Mpts record length.
Let’s use a PWM signal with 1 ns rise time and 0.001% resolution and try various duty cycles.
First the lowest at 0.001 %:
SDS2354X_Plus_Duty_00.001
Near full scale at 99.999 %:
SDS2354X_Plus_Duty_99.999
Half scale at 50.000 %:
SDS2354X_Plus_Duty_50.000
Finally one step higher at 50.001 %:
SDS2354X_Plus_Duty_50.001
As can be seen, the duty cycle measurement is spot on and rock stable (look at the standard deviation).
The period measurement is fairly stable too, with a standard deviation of only 11.9 ps (peak deviation 50 ps).
The Cycle Mean measurements gives an approximation of the resulting voltage level. It is far less precise than the duty cycle measurement though. No wonder – an 8 bit DSO is no precision bench DMM, hence measurement resolutions far below 1 mV are not going to be stable – this also shows in the standard deviation of ~30 µV.
Finally, the rise and fall times are considerably closer to the truth than what could be realistically expected at 2 GSa/s. The rather high peak deviation of ~500 ps already hints on the averaging of many individual measurements finally yielding a reasonably accurate result.
Of course we can get full accuracy for one additional detail like the rise time by adding zoom trace measurements:
SDS2354X_Plus_Duty_50.001_Rise
Now we get a highly accurate rise time measurement. The key for this is to use a timebase faster than 50 ns/div in the zoom window. Now the sinc reconstruction generates additional data points, thus increasing time resolution and reducing the standard deviation of the measurement to just 11.2 ps.
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Hello everyone,
I've recently upgraded my lab with the SDS2104X plus scope. Additionally, years ago I created my version of the famous Jim Williams's short pulse generator. The main difference is that I just replaced the boost converter with a 555 timer. Back then, I was able to score a couple of the original Motorola transistors (NOS).
[attach=5]
I guess it does not surprise anyone that my scope now appears as SDS2504X Plus. My other scope is HP 54825A (used to be 54815A). They both share 500Mhz bandwidth and 2 GSa/s sampling. I thought it would be interesting to compare them side by side. Fist I wanted to get some reference. Probably the best I could get my hands on was the SDA6020 from LeCroy. That is a 6GHz, 20 GSa/s scope. The input is 50 ohm with +/-4Vpp input voltage range. The pulse generator exceeds the range therefore I used 1:10 atenuator. I tried different ones, always with the same result. They were rated 0-3 GHz. The measurement gave me ~200ps rise time. I used Sinc(x) interpolation. In case of LeCroy it also makes sense to look at linear extrapolation but the waveform is pretty similar. I decided for persistence since not every pulse is identical and this gies the best impression on what is happening.
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
Now, with the reference, I tried my Infinium 54825A.
[attach=4]
Finally, the Siglent with the 500MHz option.
[attach=3]
I thought someone would find my experiments interesting. Feel free to point out if something is just not right.
Have a nice weekend everyone.
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Also there can see how Siglent trigger accuracy is far ahead of the other two. ;)
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Also there can see how Siglent trigger accuracy is far ahead of the other two. ;)
This, which doesn't really come as a surprise, since the Siglent seems to be the only one with a fully digital trigger system in this bunch.
What is a surprise though, is the rather bad pulse fildelity of the Keysight. Don't even want to imagine how much noise some of the well known "experts" would make if the Siglent showed such a behavior...
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Also there can see how Siglent trigger accuracy is far ahead of the other two. ;)
I was definitely impressed how good the triggering mechanism is. I admit I had to "fiddle the knob" for both LeCroy and HP to get reliable trigger.
What is a surprise though, is the rather bad pulse fildelity of the Keysight. Don't even want to imagine how much noise some of the well known "experts" would make if the Siglent showed such a behavior...
To be fair, both machines for the comparison are old. Still, the roller coaster after the falling edge is interesting. That's the filter response, I guess.<joke> Please don't call it keysight, this unit proudly carries HP logo !</joke>
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Of course there have been advances, but they are not so enormous that one could assume that a 1200€ scope would be on a par with or even superior to premium scopes from the 00s that were on a different planet in terms of price.
Siglent has done a good job with the SDS2000xplus.
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Please don't call it keysight, this unit proudly carries HP logo !</joke>
R.I.P. Hewlett-Packard. Who assassin it - well...all know, Lady Fiorina. :(
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Also there can see how Siglent trigger accuracy is far ahead of the other two. ;)
This, which doesn't really come as a surprise, since the Siglent seems to be the only one with a fully digital trigger system in this bunch.
What is a surprise though, is the rather bad pulse fildelity of the Keysight. Don't even want to imagine how much noise some of the well known "experts" would make if the Siglent showed such a behavior...
It looks like both of them suffer from aliasing (the 54825A badly, but the Siglent too - maybe a consequence of the 500 MHz upgrade?)
For comparison, the Siglent in points mode would be interesting, too.
Still, the roller coaster after the falling edge is interesting. That's the filter response, I guess.
Sure. If the original impulse is very narrow (so that it can be considered an approximation of a Dirac delta impulse), then the entire curve is the impulse response (but then the rise time you measured is not the step response rise time, but the rise time of the curve's integral would be the step response rise time). OTOH, if the original pulse width is not negligibly short, then it is hard to separate how much of the pulse shape is contributed by the frontend, and how much by the pulse itself.
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R.I.P. Hewlett-Packard. Who assassin it - well...all know, Lady Fiorina. :(
At least she inspired Ginni Rometty... :-DD
It looks like both of them suffer from aliasing (the 54825A badly, but the Siglent too - maybe a consequence of the 500 MHz upgrade?)
For comparison, the Siglent in points mode would be interesting, too.
Honestly, the point mode from Siglent does not show anything useful. I could not find a way how to show only points and the linear extrapolation interpolation looks silly. I can try with HP but later. Attached is SDA6020 if it helps.
General questions:
* Does SDS2000x+ have a timer that counts seconds waiting for trigger? I am debugging a Zigbee light and the bug happens one every couple hours.
* Isn't there a chance to have measurements window floating? The measurement feature is generally excellent but I wish I could have an overlay or so (see the HP printscreen).
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Honestly, the point mode from Siglent does not show anything useful. I could not find a way how to show only points and the linear extrapolation looks silly. I can try with HP but later. Attached is SDA6020 if it helps.
It do not have any extrapolation... but interpolation
Display menu. Display mode "Dots" instead of Vectors
In acquire menu there is interpolation method: x or Sinc
If your display mode is selected dots, then it display only ADC samples alone. (And also do not add "interpolated dots" in dots mode as some oscilloscopes may do
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Honestly, the point mode from Siglent does not show anything useful. I could not find a way how to show only points and the linear extrapolation looks silly. I can try with HP but later. Attached is SDA6020 if it helps.
It do not have any extrapolation... but interpolation
Display menu. Display mode "Dots" instead of Vectors
In acquire menu there is interpolation method: x or Sinc
If your display mode is selected dots, then it display only ADC samples alone. (And also do not add "interpolated dots" in dots mode as some oscilloscopes may do
Thank you for the tips and pardon my ignorant nomenclature. :scared:
I try tomorrow.
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Honestly, the point mode from Siglent does not show anything useful. I could not find a way how to show only points and the linear extrapolation looks silly. I can try with HP but later.
Looking at the datasheet, the 54825A seems to support Equivalent Time Sampling.
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R.I.P. Hewlett-Packard. Who assassin it - well...all know, Lady Fiorina. :(
At least she inspired Ginni Rometty... :-DD
It looks like both of them suffer from aliasing (the 54825A badly, but the Siglent too - maybe a consequence of the 500 MHz upgrade?)
For comparison, the Siglent in points mode would be interesting, too.
Honestly, the point mode from Siglent does not show anything useful. I could not find a way how to show only points and the linear extrapolation looks silly. I can try with HP but later. Attached is SDA6020 if it helps.
General questions:
* Does SDS2000x+ have a timer that counts seconds waiting for trigger? I am debugging a Zigbee light and the bug happens one every couple hours.
* Isn't there a chance to have measurements window floating? The measurement feature is generally excellent but I wish I could have an overlay or so (see the HP printscreen).
It has always running history mode that keeps time for every trigger event..
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Honestly, the point mode from Siglent does not show anything useful. I could not find a way how to show only points …
Well, let’s examine that a bit.
I don’t have a fancy pulser, but maybe a well defined pulse from a pulse generator, even if it’s a little bit slower at 500 ps rise time, might be even more appropriate for characterizing a moderate bandwidth oscilloscope.
So the test pulse has a repetition rate of 10 MHz, 500 ps transition times and is 1 ns wide.
The first screenshot has been taken with Sinc reconstruction, vector display mode, color grading and 10 s persistence.
SDS2354X_Plus_PR_10MHz_500ps_vect_CG
What do we see ? There are not any signs of aliasing. There is no pre-shot. There is a very moderate low frequency ringing at the end of the falling edge. The signal is rock stable, as the thin trace and the low standard deviation in the time measurements show. The amplitude measurement on the other hand cannot be very stable, as this fast pulse doesn’t have a well defined “roof”
Now let’s try the same thing in dots mode, which is claimed to “not show anything useful”…
SDS2354X_Plus_PR_10MHz_500ps_dot_IG
As can be seen, I’ve used the standard intensity grading this time, as color grading and not even persistence show anything spectacular at all. I wish every feature in any T&M gear were as “useless” as dots mode in a SDS2000X Plus.
Of course, for dots mode to yield nice results as in this picture, we need to have the DSO set to “fast acquisition” and keep it in Run mode, so that SARI (Sequential Acquisitions Random Interleaving) can do its job. With persistence enabled, we can even switch to Stop mode and still have a contiguous trace. A single shot acquisition on the other hand will always allow the closer inspection of the individual samples of a single acquisition:
SDS2354X_Plus_PR_10MHz_500ps_dot_IG_Single
Yes, we don’t see a lot in this picture, but it’s always nice to have the option to see the raw basis the instrument is working on.
Of course we can look at the history any time we like and there we can look at the individual records (up to 80000 at fast time bases like this) and try dots mode to show the true samples only, vector mode, where we can select between x-interpolation and Sinc reconstruction, as well as even persistence, which will collect display data as we browse through the history or play it back at any arbitrary speed.
and the linear extrapolation looks silly. I can try with HP but later. Attached is SDA6020 if it helps.
x-interpolation can avoid Gibbs ears in some situation, but is usually just an obsolete leftover from the old days of digital oscilloscopes, when there wasn’t enough processing power to run a true reconstruction (Sinc aka sin(x)/x). It is evident, that the sample rate should be about ten times the input (or signal) bandwidth for linear interpolation to work.
In our particular case, linear (x) interpolation isn’t terribly useful, yet it gives a nice demonstration of the intensity grading:
SDS2354X_Plus_PR_10MHz_500ps_vect_IG_Lin
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What's your best approach to export screenshots for black and white printing?
Even with color printing it's difficult to choose trace colors that do well on screen and paper, when you invert the export to white background. :scared:
OK, I confess: I'm old school and sometimes like paper. :-[
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I'm old school and sometimes like paper.
I must like paper because we use the screenshots for factory acceptance testreports.. ;)
That's why I suggested some time ago that siglent could handle this like lecroy, where the color selection is possible separately.
Once for the display, once for printing.
And in the selection for printing you can still select B/W printig or color printing.
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Just unpacked a brand new Siglent SDS2104X Plus.
Is this normal fan noise? The clicking noise of the fan is rather loud, compared to other PC fans that I have lying around.
https://imgur.com/a/SQiDDSU
I'm asking because if this isn't normal noise, it's going back. The vendor tries to tell me it's normal for the SDS2100X series, but I can't seem to believe that. It sounds like a destroyed ball bearing in the fan.
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Hi,
Hard to hear for me..
But I´ve made a short clip from the SDS2104Xplus I got at home:
If this sounds similar, then nothing is wrong with yours.
(link will be deleted in one hour)
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Without a "reference sound" (in the same recording) to compare to, I think those audio recordings are impossible to interpret. Who knows what microphone auto-gain was set, and what playback volume should be used?
Maybe we need building instructions for a "standard acoustic noise source" with a reproducible sound level, to be added to every scopeologist's T&M toolkit? ;)
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The clicking noise of the fan is rather loud
You can do that without a reference.
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The clicking noise of the fan is rather loud
You can do that without a reference.
I didn't hear any clicking, neither in Leandros' recording nor yours. :-//
Edit: My "reference noise source" suggestion was at least half-serious though. We have had so many discussions about various scopes' fans centered around subjective impressions -- "it's loud", "it's annoyingly loud", "I don't find it too bad" -- that some reference frame would be helpful indeed. Maybe no need to build something; there must be an app for that...
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I made some decibel measurements. It hovered between 49 dB and 51 dB. I've attached it to the post.
I've also attached a picture of where I took the measurement so you can reproduce it.
I want to clarify that I'm not questioning the general noise of the fan. It's a fan. It'll be making noise moving the air. That's expected. What I'm wondering is whether the clacking noise is normal, or an indicator of a broken bearing.
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There shouldn't be a clicking noise, I don't have one here, just a constant sound.
My SDS2kX HD had a clicking noise, that was clearly the fan, which I then replaced.
I still have it, I can record it tomorrow with a proper microphone and an RTA program.
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> I can record it tomorrow with a proper microphone and an RTA program.
That'd be much appreciated. I might have to replace my fan as well (or just return it in my 14 day return window).
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Hi,
If you want to exchange, here a little stuff to read:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3786074/#msg3786074 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3786074/#msg3786074)
(and further posts)
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Just unpacked a brand new Siglent SDS2104X Plus.
Is this normal fan noise? The clicking noise of the fan is rather loud, compared to other PC fans that I have lying around.
The sound of the stock fan in the SDS2000X Plus is loud. Your one sounds like a very cheap fan with "broken" bearings. Replace it with with a Noctua (mentioned here in this thread) and insert the "noise reduction"-cable, that comes with the fan. You will not hear it anymore and the scope does not overheat with reduced fan performance.
A replacement one will not be much more quiet. My scopes fan just hit the resonance of the case and emitted a horrible humming sound.
Just pay attention to remove the warranty-sticker carefully.
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My fan was a little loud, and had an annoying clicking sound. I recently replaced it with this fan: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NEMG9B0/ (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NEMG9B0/)
I didn't install the reduction cable, and the fan is on full speed all the time. It's still quieter and sounds better than the stock fan did.
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We've been through this discussion a few times now. Like this one:
One question - is the fan supposed to tick? I've read some complaints about noise, but mine ticks very fast, like a clock on speed.
I also uploaded a sound file of the fan ticking. It's just the way the fan operates.
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My fan was a little loud, and had an annoying clicking sound. I recently replaced it with this fan: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NEMG9B0/ (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NEMG9B0/)
I didn't install the reduction cable, and the fan is on full speed all the time. It's still quieter and sounds better than the stock fan did.
You can not get any better fan. try one of the cables and be surprised about the “vanished” fan…
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You can not get any better fan. try one of the cables and be surprised about the “vanished” fan…
I'm fine with it as it is. I don't need it to be silent, I just hated the clicking noise. Now it's a clean/consistent sound which is even soothing. 😉
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Since the relatively loud fan noises also bothered me a lot, including slight clicking noises, I initially decided to just replace the fan with a Noctua NF-A9 FLX. However, I was still not completely satisfied with the result of the FLX. So I decided to waive my warranty and converted my device with the Noctua NF-A9 PWM similarly as described here https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg5119110/?topicseen#msg5119110 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg5119110/?topicseen#msg5119110). After that I was satisfied.
Here are my settings for the controller:
Voltage of the base speed (~910rpm): ~5.2V (fan stops running at approx. 4V)
Controller acceleration temperature: 30°C
Temperature for maximum speed (2000rpm): 30°C + 15°C = 45°C
After switching the scope on at a room temperature of 22.5°C, the fan runs for approx. 8 minutes at the lowest speed level (912rpm @5.2V) (channels 1 and 3 on + FFT for channel 1 on).
The controller then increases the speed by 1 step (1150rpm @6.4V) and remains there with the above-mentioned measuring mode of the oscilloscope.
After 1 hour in the above-mentioned measuring mode, I was able to measure the following temperatures:
Room temperature: 22.5°C
Exhaust air temperature directly behind the fan: 32°C
CPU temperature on the base of the heat sink: 51°C
ADC temperature on the heat sink of an ADC: ~41°C
Using a calibrated measuring microphone (Beyerdynamic MM1, 50 cm away from the screen and 30 cm above the tabletop) I was able to measure the following A-weighted equivalent continuous sound levels (LAeq) in a very quiet living room:
Oscilloscope off: LAeq=25dB (probably the noise floor voltage of the microphone)
Oscilloscope switched on (Fan running with1150rpm @6.5V): LAeq=27.5dB
After my first conversion step, in which I only replaced the existing fan with an Noctua NF-A9 FLX (without controller module, @12V operating voltage @1600rpm), I measured the following sound pressure levels:
Oscilloscope switched off: LAeq=25.5dB
Oscilloscope switched on: LAeq=36dB
After a second conversion step (Manufacturer warranty still valid), in which I used the Noctua NF-A9 FLX with the noise reduction cable @1250 rpm I mesured:
scope off: LAeq=25dB
scope on: LAeq=31dB
With the Noctua FLX it would have been possible to use another noise reduction cable (1050 rpm). But that was too uncertain for me with regard to higher room temperatures, and so I decided to convert my device with NF-A9 PWM as described in the link mentioned above. The FLX fans are not so well suited for DC controller operation because they stop turning at ~5V.
UPDATE:
I replaced the 3-wire DC controller with a 4-wire PWM controller (see photo below).
The PWM controller regulates the fan speed continuously and allows the temperature thresholds to be set in steps of 1°C. The duty cycle for speed control can be changed in steps of 1%.
Settings for the PWM controller:
PWM duty cycle for base speed: 42% (~910rpm)
PWM accel. temperature: 31°c
PWM max. speed temp. : 48°C (2000rpm)
Turn off temp.: 0°C (no switch off function)
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You can not get any better fan. try one of the cables and be surprised about the “vanished” fan…
I'm fine with it as it is. I don't need it to be silent, I just hated the clicking noise. Now it's a clean/consistent sound which is even soothing. 😉
Others buy expensive soothing white noise generators - we do have a combo fan with DSO for that :-DD 8)
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Others buy expensive soothing white noise generators - we do have a combo fan with DSO for that :-DD 8)
My Yogasleep Dohm wasn't that expensive. 🤣
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If you're only going up to say 50MHz and not trying to zoom way in after stopping, is there any real downside to using 10bit mode mode ? What about in FFT or Bode Plots ? Maybe it doesn't even matter for all I know.
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I have also made the switch to the Noctua NF-A9 FLX. It's much better now. Thanks for all the help and advice!
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Also can Bode plot's be done with a 10x probe or not ? I could put 1 from DUT output to the scope, I have 50 ohm cable between AWG and the scope, and a 50R cable from AWG to DUT input.
I tried to solder a scope GND clip to a board, but it's stainless steel or something. So I soldered on some copper wire coils. Just doing that I can see the difference in a BJT's response.
I have to make some sort of low capacitance probe. I have a partly dodgy 50R alligator clip cable, may the BNC end is still good and I can use it. Or what about old scope cables, that aren't 50R, can they be used for a low impedance low capacitance probe ?
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I have also made the switch to the Noctua NF-A9 FLX. It's much better now
In another thread I´ve made measures of the fan noise from different scopes:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho804-test-and-compare-thread/msg5226036/#msg5226036 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho804-test-and-compare-thread/msg5226036/#msg5226036)
Here a comparison between SDS2104Xplus original fan and SDS2504X HD with integrated fan control and noctua fan.
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Does anyone know approx when to expect the next firmware update? I am a new scope owner. No, I don't have any issue or bug at the moment, I am simply curious since a while ago someone posted that new firmware was in beta test.
Happy Holidays,
Neal
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I don't remember seeing this before, but today on my 2204x+, on FFT w/o a CH4 probe connected, I get about -42dBV signal right at 100.000MHz, that's w/ 500us timebase, full BW, 10x amp on the scope, 1V/div. FM radio is in noise floor, not showing up, NF is around -85dBV.
The only other signals above noise from 0-200MHz, on the 500us timebase, is AM radio.
When I switch to 1ms timebase, the 100MHz signal is still there but right at the end of the max freq 100MHz.
But when I go to 200us timebase, the signal is gone.
On CH2 FFT, w/o CH2 probe attached, I'm getting upto -67dBV at 100.0000MHz, but it's level is going down near -84dBV, but the noise floor is a few dBV lower than CH4 was, this is closer to -95
What's that 100MHz signal all about ? And why is there about 10dBV difference between CH2 and CH4 's noise floor, w/o probes attached, and both on full BW, 10x, 1V/div ?
maybe I have seen this before, and it's just a digital artifact, from the math it does.
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If there are two, switch the probes between them.
You could also "short-circuit" the two inputs and then look again.
If the 100Mhz "peak" has then almost disappeared, you are catching an interference at 100Mhz.
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Why EasyScopeX and not the webserver ? :-//
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My scope is connected w/USB, so I'm guessing the webbrowser won't work.
I thought I was on full memory depth as well. I was on 2M, and if I go to 200M, the 100MHz signal is gone, So it's just something in the math it does, and/or with the FM radio signals right next to it.
I'll have to watch out for that when changing timebase and whatever the mem depth does.
After calibration, my CH2 noise floor seems to be jumping from around what CH4 was in the around -80's dBV, to down in the -90's
W/ just CH1/3 on, Ch1 seems pretty stable around -90's, but CH3 is jumping from -100's to -90's. Is that normal ? The FFT has always seemed to vary every few screen updates, I always figured it's related to the PSU and the mains voltage level.
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Due to the architecture of modern high-speed ADCs, it is not at all uncommon to have spurious signals from subharmonics of the sample frequency.
If we want to avoid spurs, it’s a good idea to take advantage on the deep memory and the long FFT that the SDS2000 provides. Setting the max. mem depth to 20 Mpts instead of just 2, thus increasing the acquisition sample rate from 400 MSa/s to 2 GSa/s and the FFT sample rate to 1 GSa/s, we get a fairly clean result, see attached screenshot.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=1959672;image)
SDS2354X_Plus_Spurs_500MHz
This measure lowers the noise floor (because the noise above 200 MHz is no longer included) and shifts the lowest ADC-clock related spurious frequency up to 500 MHz.
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My scope is connected w/USB, so I'm guessing the webbrowser won't work.
The webserver is somewhat easier to use but it’s best if it’s connected via a LAN switch where you only need specify the scopes IP and enter its IP into a web browser.
You can use either and the webserver doesn’t need additional SW or drivers for connectivity.
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In case you miss it, I added
After calibration, my CH2 noise floor seems to be jumping from around what CH4 was in the around -80's dBV, to down in the -90's. Every few screen updates, the whole thing jumps.
W/ just CH1/3 on, 200mV/div ,Ch1 seems pretty stable around -90's, but CH3 is jumping from -100's to -90's. Is that normal ? The FFT has always seemed to vary every few screen updates, I always figured it's related to the PSU and the mains voltage level.
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I still can't get the Bode plot working. I have my SDG hooked up over USB and it tests OK, I set both SDG CH's to 50 Ohm, and both on the scope to 50, and 1x, before selecting CH coupling, and on the scope going into BP.
My DUT is certainly not 50 ohm's anything, it's a differential mixer, I worked out the output impedance, it's not 50 of course. But I'm not entering it's transfer function into my scope.
You can see my settings below, I have a BNC M2M from CH1 to CH1, and a BNC to alligator clip from AWG CH2 to an input cap of the mixer. And the output is right on the output collector, with another BNC to alligator clip, from scope CH3. That cable might be a bit dodgy, I'll swap them and see if I can find another one.
I had the scope set to AC coupling, so no output cap on the collector, shouldn't matter.
But shouldn't that be working, without me using external terminators, or feed through terminators ? I'm getting more used to the names of all this stuff, but just trying to buy some good cables today on Digikey, IDK what else I really need for just the Bode Plot.
I have an RF textbook that's ok, there's lot's in there on coax and transmission lines, plenty to do there, but I expected the Bode plot to work, IDK what I'm over looking still.
Also on a legit site like Digikey, what's the difference between a $3 1GHz 50 terminator, and a $20 one ?? Maybe some other numbers, but will one wear out way quicker I wonder ? Same with BNC RG-58 cables, are the cheapest models on Digikey, just going to break in a few months or 1-2 years of normal use ?
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I have a BNC M2M from CH1 to CH1, and a BNC to alligator clip from AWG CH2 to an input cap of the mixer.
I'd suspect the scope to control only one AWG channel and would connect AWG CH1 to SDS CH1 as well as to DUT input.
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I've done it like this, w/o the 50ohm FTT, I guess this picture is for my 1204X-E which doesn't have internal 50R to GND.
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I still can't get the Bode plot working. I have my SDG hooked up over USB and it tests OK, I set both SDG CH's to 50 Ohm, and both on the scope to 50, and 1x, before selecting CH coupling, and on the scope going into BP.
My DUT is certainly not 50 ohm's anything, it's a differential mixer, I worked out the output impedance, it's not 50 of course. But I'm not entering it's transfer function into my scope.
You can see my settings below, I have a BNC M2M from CH1 to CH1, and a BNC to alligator clip from AWG CH2 to an input cap of the mixer. And the output is right on the output collector, with another BNC to alligator clip, from scope CH3. That cable might be a bit dodgy, I'll swap them and see if I can find another one.
I had the scope set to AC coupling, so no output cap on the collector, shouldn't matter.
But shouldn't that be working, without me using external terminators, or feed through terminators ? I'm getting more used to the names of all this stuff, but just trying to buy some good cables today on Digikey, IDK what else I really need for just the Bode Plot.
I have an RF textbook that's ok, there's lot's in there on coax and transmission lines, plenty to do there, but I expected the Bode plot to work, IDK what I'm over looking still.
Also on a legit site like Digikey, what's the difference between a $3 1GHz 50 terminator, and a $20 one ?? Maybe some other numbers, but will one wear out way quicker I wonder ? Same with BNC RG-58 cables, are the cheapest models on Digikey, just going to break in a few months or 1-2 years of normal use ?
Like Peter said, scope is controlling CH1 of AWG. Scope CH1 and DUT input are connected in parallel and to CH1 of AWG. CH2 of AWG is not used.
You could, though, go into AWG settings and set channels locked. In which case AWG CH2 would faithfully follow AWG CH1 as scope puts it through it's paces..
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Yes on my AWG, CH1 is copied onto CH2, at that point only CH1 can be set, and CH2 does the same.
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As sanity check we go to basics.
Connect a BNC to BNC coax from AWG CH1 to CH1 on scope and Another one from AWG CH2 to CH3 of scope.
Run a sweep that should show 1:1 transfer function. Small discrepancies at higher frequencies are possible.
Once you verify that works well, then we know it is connections to DUT that are problem..
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I still can't get the Bode plot working. I have my SDG hooked up over USB and it tests OK, I set both SDG CH's to 50 Ohm, and both on the scope to 50, and 1x, before selecting CH coupling, and on the scope going into BP.
My DUT is certainly not 50 ohm's anything, it's a differential mixer, I worked out the output impedance, it's not 50 of course. But I'm not entering it's transfer function into my scope.
Did you work out the input impedance as well? I assume it is not 50 ohm either.
The first thing to do is making sure that the port impedances match. For low frequencies and if the input is high impedance, then you should set the AWG output to high-Z, even though this will not affect anything but the displayed output level, and even more importantly, also set the reference channel on the DSO to high-Z.
For frequencies above some 10 MHz, proper port matching should be aimed at. Like in the real world of professional HF, appropriate transformers / matching networks have to be added to the inputs and outputs of the (mixer) module. From my experience, depending on the architecture a mixer is not guaranteed to work properly if its port impedances are not properly matched.
The output port cannot be loaded with 50 ohms and a length of coax cable (which will add capacitance) if it is not 50 ohms itself. If a proper match cannot be obtained, then a low capacitance (preferably active) probe is to be used. Yet I think it is better and also much cheaper to design the output for proper 50 ohms impedance by means of transformers or matching networks in conjunction with diplexers to ensure wideband impedance matching.
The next issue is that any mixer has two input ports – what is connected to the 2nd port? If it is just DC, i.e. the mixer is used as a voltage controlled attenuator, then you can do the Bode Plot just like with any passive DUT.
If the mixer is actually used as a mixer, with some oscillator signal into the 2nd port, then the output frequency will be different than the input frequency and Bode Plot cannot work because it uses a frequency selective detector.
This is where the dual output AWG comes in handy, because you can set a constant frequency shift between the two channels, making sure that the expected output frequency of the mixer is the same as the reference frequency used for Bode Plot.
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Yeah I just started thinking about 50R attached to the circuit, and of course even if my scope really has a DC blocking cap, 50R is killing my signal. I've been calculating some impedance matching stuff lately, and 50 ohms always "scares me" because that would normally be a lot of current if across Vcc. But it went over my head IRL.
1 cable is not very good either.
I'll try a passive filter, see if that works.
For the mixer I have input impedance eqn's too, at DC it's near 1750R. I've done max power transfer and quality factor and stuff, but yeah, I guess I'm forgetting what that means IRL.
But if the scope is looking at the input and output, can't it figure out the gain and phase without caring about the impedance attached ?
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While not the 2kX Plus, there is much we can learn about Bode plot here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1x04x-e-bodeplot-ii-(sfra)-features-and-testing-(coming)/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1x04x-e-bodeplot-ii-(sfra)-features-and-testing-(coming)/)
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Is 0.01V enough to test the DUT?
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Well impedance mismatch aside, now I have something that looks reasonable. When I turn on the BP operation button, the scope only turns on AWG CH1, and NOT CH2 aswell. It seems if I turn CH2 on before starting the BP, it stays on, and I get something reasonable.
On the AWG, all I've been doing is going to Ultility/CH Copy Coupling/ and turning on Tracking, channel coupling is all default 0's. So shouldn't the scope turn on both channels ?
And no 10mV was not enough for that loading. Right now the scope is on 1M w/ the BNC coax cables, and now too much voltage, at 0.8Vrms input.
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Well impedance mismatch aside, now I have something that looks reasonable. When I turn on the BP operation button, the scope only turns on AWG CH1, and NOT CH2 aswell. It seems if I turn CH2 on before starting the BP, it stays on, and I get something reasonable.
On the AWG, all I've been doing is going to Ultility/CH Copy Coupling/ and turning on Tracking, channel coupling is all default 0's. So shouldn't the scope turn on both channels ?
And no 10mV was not enough for that loading. Right now the scope is on 1M w/ the BNC coax cables, and now too much voltage, at 0.8Vrms input.
BodePlot control only AWG Ch1
And AWG, even when AWG Ch2 Track AWG Ch1, AWG Ch2 on/off do not follow AWG Ch1 on/off.
Bode Plot do not know anything about AWG Ch2. It do not even know it is there. And in some cases it is nice it do not at all touch to Ch2.
(also it do not know if AWG Ch2 have frequency or level offset to AWG Ch1 and user settable offset is very important - mandatory - in some BodePlot applications. Example with frequency offset BodePlot do not know that the DUT changes the frequency, example mixer... DUT can even be receiver... DUT in is antenna in... and DUT out is example 1st IF.
In some cases it is also nice that other AWG channel have constant amplitude and other follow BodePlot variable Level sweep.
There is so many possibilities.
This Siglent BodePlot with external AWG really gives many possibilities when the user learns to bend it to his own needs. Of course, it should also (sometimes when other things don't override this) be further developed to be better and more developed - like so many other things.
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So am I supposed to use a splitter, like a T, and would I put that at the AWG CH1 or scope CH1, shouldn't really matter if they are good parts ? and then to DUT input ?
So what is that siglent picture I posted of ?? Is that incorrect for the SDS2000X+ ?
I'll try this with my 1204X-E, if that doesn't work, :wtf:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmTAhIrVids (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmTAhIrVids)
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This SDS2000X+ ability to Offset the Bode Function wrt Phase, Frequency and/or Amplitude utilizing an external Dual Channel AWG (like SDG2042X or 6022X) is so powerful in the hands of Knowledgable users.
The SDS2000X+ Bode implementation is a Masterpiece feature and is so useful and powerful!! A tribute to the core developers who obviously knew what they were doing with extensive "hands on" experience and what one might expect from the likes of Keysight, R&S, Tektronix and LeCroy in their full featured and expensive instruments.
The SDS2000X+ Bode function is somewhat slow, but very powerful and feature rich. Suspect the HD version with 12bit ADCs and faster processing is even better, and hopefully so for the newer upcoming SDS800 and 1000HD!!
And Siglent keeps improving these DSO/MSO features :-+
Best,
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So is this upper picture incorrect for the 2000x+ ??
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Here's an example that may help clarify how to setup and use the Frequency Offset function with the Bode Plot.
We are using a very simple "Mixer" with a 2N3904 NPN transistor. This is biased with 5VDC thru a 100 ohm resistor to the collector, the emitter is ground. From the collector a 10K resistor is connected with the other side to a shunt to ground capacitor, this forms a simple low pass filter which becomes the "Output" signal. The 2N3904 base is connected to a 1K resistor to a squarewave generator (SDG6022X) with 2VPP at 1MHz called LO or Local Oscillator. Another resistor (10K) is connected to the base thru a series capacitor to CH2 of the AWG (SDG2042X) called the DUT "Input" Signal.
This configuration forms a simple mixer where the transistor is gated ON and OFF by the squarewave (LO) and thus binary multiplying or "mixing" the sine wave Input from the AWG Ch2. This should translate the frequency of the Input signal by the LO Frequency.
The AWG (SDG2042X) is setup with Channel Coupling Frequency Deviation of 1MHz and Ch1 is connected to C1 of the DSO, C2 is connected with a scope probe (10X) to the Output mentioned above. Bode Decade Sweep is set to 100-100KHz with 31 steps/Dec at 2V amplitude.
What should happen is the AWG frequency of Ch2 should be frequency offset by the Deviation setting (1MHz) and this is the Input Signal to the Mixer DUT, so as the Bode Function sweeps the AWG from 100 to 100KHz from AWG Ch1 as seen by DSO C1. AWG Ch2 is frequency Offset by 1MHz is the DUT Input, and the Bode C2 senses the DUT Output as being swept from 100 to 100KHz where the actual Input Signal is swept from 1MHz +100 to 1MHz +100KHz.
The DUT Mixer with an LO of 1MHz, then displays a Low Pass Filter output "from 1MHz" as shown below.
As also mentioned one can do Amplitude Offsets and Phase Offsets with similar setup!!
Very nice feature set built within the superb implementation of the SDS2000X+ Bode Function when operating a like AWG!!
Anyway, hope this helps understand how the SDS2000X+ Frequency Deviation Offset can be applied with highly non-linear devices like "Mixers" are employed as DUT devices, and produce frequency translation.
Best,
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BTW,
An application note about the Bodeplot II:
https://www.batronix.com/files/Siglent/Oszilloskope/SDS1000X-E/SDS1000X-E-BodePlotII.pdf (https://www.batronix.com/files/Siglent/Oszilloskope/SDS1000X-E/SDS1000X-E-BodePlotII.pdf)
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Here's a little expansion of the Bode Frequency Offset mentioned above. We've added two more channels to the Bode Function, so now using all 4 channel capability of the SDS2000X+.
The setup is the same 2N3904 based "Mixer" mentioned above, and we've added 2 additional outputs. Another Low Pass Filter @ ~500Hz (other @ 1.6KHz) and a Bandpass Filter @ 10KHz implemented with a LC, so 2 LP filters and BP Filter as outputs.
The LO and Offset are 1MHz. What should happen in the input signal is swept from 100 to 100KHz from the AWG Ch1, AWG Ch2 is Frequency Offset by 1MHz, so it's output sweeps from 1MHz + 100Hz to 1MHz + 100KHz as setup with the AWG (SDG2042X) Channel Coupling Feature with the CH2-CH1 Frequency Deviation setting of 1MHz which "Offsets" Ch2 by the Frequency Deviation setting, which causes Ch2 to sweep 1MHz above Ch1.
With the LO (SDG6022X) set to 1MHz, this causes the 2N3904 to switch (Mix) at 1MHz and frequency translate the Input from AWG Ch2 which is being swept from 1MHz + 100Hz to 1MHz + 100KHz per the Bode Settings (100Hz to 100KHz). The 2N3904 collector output is translated back down by the "Mixing Action" to 100Hz to 100KHz and sensed by the DSO channels, where DSO C1 is directly sensing the AWG CH1 setting (not frequency translated), C2 senses with 10X probe the 1.6KHz LPF, C3 senses the 500Hz LPF and C4 senses the BPF output.
Quite a powerful and useful implementation of the Bode Function, as this example demonstrates :-+
Best,
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Here's the setup.
Best,
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Bode Frequency Offset works at 10MHz offset as well :-+
Best,
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I just noticed that the :PRINT command from the SCPI command set does not work anymore. I used that for a small script which captures a screen, for command line use. Yes, I know that thsi is possible with the web interface as well.
I would like to make a similar script... Is this fixed again, or is it still broken?
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I just noticed that the :PRINT command from the SCPI command set does not work anymore. I used that for a small script which captures a screen, for command line use. Yes, I know that thsi is possible with the web interface as well.
Oh, hey, I think I figured it out. The following commands send back large streams of data in the R&S Visa test tool:
:PRIN? BMP
:PRIN? PNG
:PRINt? BMP
:PRINt? PNG
PRIN? BMP
PRIN? PNG
PRINt? BMP
PRINt? PNG
but you need the question mark, otherwise the response times out. The latest EN11D programming guide on Siglent's website has the question mark in the command description, so the documentation is up to date. I was going off of the old EN11A version programming guide that I downloaded when I first got the scope.
SDS2504X+. Utility menu software version says 1.5.2R3.
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Today I discovered the possibility to set the pulse width from an internal AWG with a sub-nanosecond resolution.
Here I set pulse widht to 446.0 / 446.1 / 446.2 ns.
Who can explain, how its works?
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probably similarly to the high-resolution PWM found in some microcontrollers (e.g. c2000). Edge positioning is the keyword.
Simply said, you rely on the slew rate and adjust the threshold for logic level change. This gives you additional bits of resolution. It is not perfect, but monotonous and works reasonably well.
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Today I discovered the possibility to set the pulse width from an internal AWG with a sub-nanosecond resolution.
Here I set pulse widht to 446.0 / 446.1 / 446.2 ns.
Who can explain, how its works?
Look up NCO.
You can have very high resolution.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_sampling_theorem
The key is that the generated signal must be properly bandwidth limited. Then it can well have a period duration or pulse width with a higher resolution than the AWG's sampling period.
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signal must be properly bandwidth limited.
And it is. Rise/fall time is >25ns.
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I really don't know why you find basic I2C decoding difficult. :-//
New SDS2104X Plus.....didn't even set edge to falling and only added 2ms trigger Holdoff.
Select Decode and check it is set to I2C then assign channels and then adjust Thresholds.
It took longer to boot than make these decode settings....
So what am I doing wrong here in this picture? I'm trying to hack a DVD player's VFD display, and I'm looking at the I2C pins off the EEPROM, between the main IC, and the VFD MCU.
The Green trace is the SCL line, and blue is data. I didn't see any decoding happening, so I copied most of your settings, I'm on 10bit mode but I think I have the same trigger settings. It let's me choose which CH is SCL or SDA. I've tried serial triggering, and didn't get that to do much either. I've tired rising and falling edge triggers.
In 2 pic's I was triggering off SDA to get a better pic of SDA.
In the Utility settings, it still says I have 30 free uses of I2C left. So what am I missing here ? I've had I2C work on my sds1204X-E, I can try that too, I've had that work before.
But this is the 2nd time I tried I2C on the SDS2204Xplus, and not seem to get any thing. Do I have some other setting wrong or not activated ? All clues to me say that these really are the I2C pins, and not SPI, etc. I only have parts of the DVD player, so IDK what the IC is really sending, but it repeats, until it goes back to sleep or whatever.
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I'm pretty sure trigger type must be set to Serial > I2C > etc..
And under Analysis > Decode > Bus Protocol set to I2C as well.
Could be wrong though..
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I'll try that again, at one point, I "protocol copied" the SCL/SDA levels to the trigger, and still nothing.
There was a picture missing from Tautech's post, he had regular rising edge triggering, w/DC=1.5V, and SCL/SDA thres=1.2V same as I tried.
I should find something working for sure, that's sending I2C, or try my 2204E-X 1st.
When I protocol copy the SCL/SDA levels to the trigger, it automatically changes to serial, and yeah I'm on I2C DECODE. When the DVD player powers up fully, the triggering will sort of keep the those data transmissions centered on screen, but yeah still no decoding shows up at all .
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Did you check the manual, e.g. section 16.2 I2C Trigger and Serial Decode which describes in detail the scope setup for I2C decoding.
Its not just to selected I2C decoding, but also "... to synchronize the settings between the trigger and decoding configurations" for the SDA and SCL channel.
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I'll try that again, at one point, I "protocol copied" the SCL/SDA levels to the trigger, and still nothing.
There was a picture missing from Tautech's post, he had regular rising edge triggering, w/DC=1.5V, and SCL/SDA thres=1.2V same as I tried.
I should find something working for sure, that's sending I2C, or try my 2204E-X 1st.
When I protocol copy the SCL/SDA levels to the trigger, it automatically changes to serial, and yeah I'm on I2C DECODE. When the DVD player powers up fully, the triggering will sort of keep the those data transmissions centered on screen, but yeah still no decoding shows up at all .
Which signal is Clock and which one is data? One with more transitions should be clock ....
And clock does not look very "clocky"...
It looks more like you are looking at MOSI/MISO and /CS on SPI line (without clock) than like I2C signal...
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It looks more like you are looking at MOSI/MISO and /CS on SPI line (without clock) than like I2C signal...
+1
It sure does. I missed that.
What chip is it (mfr. part number)?
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Hi,
But this is the 2nd time I tried I2C on the SDS2204Xplus, and not seem to get any thing.
If nothing is displayed, it may be that:
- Protocol signals are incorrectly assigned (clk/data)
- If they are assigned correctly, the thresholds are too low/too high
- Rarely: Too little memory
- Final: It is not an I²C signal at all.
The trigger is not so important at first.
Edit:
The triggerlevel (ch3, clk signal) is far above the signal level - It doesn´t matter for the decoding.
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So what am I doing wrong here in this picture? I'm trying to hack a DVD player's VFD display, and I'm looking at the I2C pins off the EEPROM, between the main IC, and the VFD MCU.
The Green trace is the SCL line, and blue is data. I didn't see any decoding happening, so I copied most of your settings, I'm on 10bit mode but I think I have the same trigger settings. It let's me choose which CH is SCL or SDA. I've tried serial triggering, and didn't get that to do much either. I've tired rising and falling edge triggers.
In 2 pic's I was triggering off SDA to get a better pic of SDA.
In the Utility settings, it still says I have 30 free uses of I2C left. So what am I missing here ? I've had I2C work on my sds1204X-E, I can try that too, I've had that work before.
But this is the 2nd time I tried I2C on the SDS2204Xplus, and not seem to get any thing. Do I have some other setting wrong or not activated ? All clues to me say that these really are the I2C pins, and not SPI, etc. I only have parts of the DVD player, so IDK what the IC is really sending, but it repeats, until it goes back to sleep or whatever.
Hmmm
IMO you don't have a Clk, only CS.
Try setting up with just data and CS.
If needed I can show screenshots using CS.
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It looks more like you are looking at MOSI/MISO and /CS on SPI line (without clock) than like I2C signal...
+1
It sure does. I missed that.
What chip is it (mfr. part number)?
Yeah I'm just checking the I2C rules again, and yeah I'm forgetting I2C does have the clock signal running on the line, so all others can see it.
The main DVD IC is some Toshiba TC90600FG, so far I haven't found a datasheet or pinout for it, but the VFD MCU is a Toshiba CH72FG-4U54, that seems to be a TMP86CH72FG. It's some TLCS-870 family IC, similar to Z80 CPU's. And I'm looking at the SDA/SCL pins as listed in the datasheet below, and also from a partial layout view of the VFD PCB. And the EEPROM is just some common one, with it's address all gnd'ed.
Ok thanks guys I'll try some other decoders, and read some more on those you've mentioned, I thought I remembered I2C better, as I just did a mini-review last week.
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It certainly does have an I2C bus. SCL on pin15 and SDA on pin 14.
They might also be using it in SIO mode and/or pin 16 may have activity on it in I2C mode (unlikely). Check to make sure you were not connected to pin 16 instead of pin 15.
Once a transfer begins the SLC pin should have very regular and contiguous pulses on it until the transfer ends. The SDA pin would be more irregular.
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It looks more like you are looking at MOSI/MISO and /CS on SPI line (without clock) than like I2C signal...
+1
It sure does. I missed that.
What chip is it (mfr. part number)?
Yeah I'm just checking the I2C rules again, and yeah I'm forgetting I2C does have the clock signal running on the line, so all others can see it.
The main DVD IC is some Toshiba TC90600FG, so far I haven't found a datasheet or pinout for it, but the VFD MCU is a Toshiba CH72FG-4U54, that seems to be a TMP86CH72FG. It's some TLCS-870 family IC, similar to Z80 CPU's. And I'm looking at the SDA/SCL pins as listed in the datasheet below, and also from a partial layout view of the VFD PCB. And the EEPROM is just some common one, with it's address all gnd'ed.
Ok thanks guys I'll try some other decoders, and read some more on those you've mentioned, I thought I remembered I2C better, as I just did a mini-review last week.
That chip has SSI, that shares some pins with I2C.
SSI can be set to work in SPI like mode.
What EEPROM is used? They also come in I2C and SPI versions..
BillyO is right. Clock should look like clock. Martin has shown good example how good I2C signal should look.
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Yeah I just doubled checked my wiring, and both my wires are 100 ohms from the CH72FG, SDA on p14, and SCL on p15, but I should check some other pins for a I2C clock, maybe this is not really the same pinout too.
Although this is the only thing connected to those SDA/SCL lines on the EEPROM I don't have included on that pic below, it's right on those lines too. And nothing else besides those 3 chips.
The EEPROM is some S24C0, SMD 8pin, with all 3 address pins soldered low to GND, and just p5/6 going to SCL/SDA, I think p7 is R/W and that's tied low.
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Martin has shown good example how good I2C signal should look.
I have refined this a little.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/?action=dlattach;attach=2088092;image)
@MathWizard:
You know the model name of the player, can you name it ?
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I think it was a Toshiba SD-3950, I have the main PCB, the VDF and remote PCB's, but no PSU or other DVD parts. IDK for sure if it was working when I scrapped it years ago, but the motor IC seems fried, IDK if I did that years ago, or if it was like it already.
So IDK what the main IC will be trying to do anyways, it will be missing signals for sure. But I just want to hack the VFD IC/display, and maybe use it for something else, like a PSU I made.
But I did make a map of most the power rails and chips, so I'm applying a 5VSTBY, 5V, pre3V3, and -20V and another driver on a breadboard for the VFD.
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OK the scope can decode some stuff, so it's working at least.
Could this be SIO (Serial Input Output) or SSP (SPI) (Synchronous Serial Port (Serial Peripheral Interface))
On the VFD IC,
Yellow is on p17-SIO chip select input
Red = p15-Serial data output
Blue = p16-Serial clock I/O
Green = p14-Serial data input
So maybe red is some MISO and grn is MOSI ?
As far as I can see, if CH3 is the clock, nothing changes on it's rising edges. But red/grn do change to any state, and seem to start changing exactly when blu starts falling low. There's 8 low points, and 7 high points, but it's pulled high, so that could be 8 highs or 9.
In the link below, their example of SIO, it looks like the data is read on the falling edges of the CLK, so the opposite of mine here.
https://toshiba.semicon-storage.com/us/semiconductor/knowledge/e-learning/village/seven-serial-interfaces-of-toshiba-mcu.html
It should be this block diagram in the VFD IC
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OK the scope can decode some stuff, so it's working at least.
Could this be SIO (Serial Input Output) or SSP (SPI) (Synchronous Serial Port (Serial Peripheral Interface))
On the VFD IC,
Yellow is on p17-SIO chip select input
Red = p15-Serial data output
Blue = p16-Serial clock I/O
Green = p14-Serial data input
So maybe red is some MISO and grn is MOSI ?
As far as I can see, if CH3 is the clock, nothing changes on it's rising edges. But red/grn do change to any state, and seem to start changing exactly when blu starts falling low. There's 8 low points, and 7 high points, but it's pulled high, so that could be 8 highs or 9.
In the link below, their example of SIO, it looks like the data is read on the falling edges of the CLK, so the opposite of mine here.
https://toshiba.semicon-storage.com/us/semiconductor/knowledge/e-learning/village/seven-serial-interfaces-of-toshiba-mcu.html
It should be this block diagram in the VFD IC
Yes, that is what I meant. It looks like SPI.
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Well I won't have a cheap logic analyzer til next week, so I should try and write some Arduino program to do it. I could down load one, but I need to learn some more code.
I'm just reading through the datasheet of the IC, I want to get it working on it's own, using I2C and Arduino. There's probably Z80 emulators, and assembly language guides I should get too.
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OK the scope can decode some stuff, so it's working at least.
As far as I can see, if CH3 is the clock, nothing changes on it's rising edges.
Try setting the trigger to Ch3 and add 100us of Holdoff.
This should give stable triggering and no need to Stop the scope.
Then you can set a much slower timebase, Stop the scope and H Pos (pan) through the packets.
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Oscilloscope music was mentioned in another thread, and I wanted to see how this scope would do. I think it came out pretty well. I might eventually put more effort into making a better quality video. Or not. 🤷
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rmMsoOEbvs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rmMsoOEbvs)
Side note: it looked better as filmed at 120fps, but youtube cut that in half. Still looks pretty cool though.
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Oscilloscope music was mentioned in another thread, and I wanted to see how this scope would do. I think it came out pretty well. I might eventually put more effort into making a better quality video. Or not. 🤷
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rmMsoOEbvs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rmMsoOEbvs)
Side note: it looked better as filmed at 120fps, but youtube cut that in half. Still looks pretty cool though.
Holy moly. An ultimate torture test for the AD converters. This is how we should test them.
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@josh: Your settings are ?(horzionztal, memory, etc)
Btw:
In my attempts, the images are always upside down. :-//
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@josh: Your settings are ?(horzionztal, memory, etc)
Btw:
In my attempts, the images are always upside down. :-//
10kpts for the memory to keep it faster/smoother. Going up higher either adds weird thickness, or slows it down.
horizontal I didn't bother adjusting in XY mode (maybe I was lucky?), the main thing was to make sure the mV/div was equal on X and Y. Settings are clear in the video at 00:26. Timebase 10bits, 100us/div, 10kpts, 10MSa/s; channels at DC50, 300mV/div.
If your images aren't oriented correctly (e.g. upside down), then you need to reverse the channel inputs (physically change which input L and R output are connected to).
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SDS2000X Plus Firmware - V1.6.2R1 (Release Date 04.02.24 ) is now available :) :).
https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds2000x-plus (https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/digital-oscilloscopes/#sds2000x-plus)
Cheers
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When I tried to upgrade to V1.6.2R1 version, my scope froze and stopped responding. The standard combination of power and math softkeys for rebooting does not work either. Now only the proud name of Siglent is on the screen. This of course makes me happy, but I want something more. :-BROKE
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Which firmware version do you currently have on it, the last one before this new update?
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Yes, exactly.
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I'll leave it unplugged overnight to let it cool ;). I'll try to repare it tomorrow.
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When I tried to upgrade to V1.6.2R1 version, my scope froze and stopped responding. The standard combination of power and math softkeys for rebooting does not work either. Now only the proud name of Siglent is on the screen. This of course makes me happy, but I want something more. :-BROKE
Can you state the previous FW version ?
V1.5.2R3 ?
Should you need recovery assistance PM me with your email address.
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I'll leave it unplugged overnight to let it cool ;). I'll try to repare it tomorrow.
There has been a situation where there may be upgrade issues when File Manager -> local space is very small. I'm not sure if this is the case with you.
Don't worry, it can be restored. Tautech has helped some people recover.
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I'll leave it unplugged overnight to let it cool ;). I'll try to repare it tomorrow.
There has been a situation where there may be upgrade issues when File Manager -> local space is very small. I'm not sure if this is the case with you.
Don't worry, it can be restored. Tautech has helped some people recover.
Does NOT apply to SDS2000X Plus. ;)
Please send PM and explain where you came across this info.
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I'll leave it unplugged overnight to let it cool ;). I'll try to repare it tomorrow.
There has been a situation where there may be upgrade issues when File Manager -> local space is very small. I'm not sure if this is the case with you.
Don't worry, it can be restored. Tautech has helped some people recover.
Does NOT apply to SDS2000X Plus. ;)
Please send PM and explain where you came across this info.
This is my guess, because other people have also upgraded this version without issues, so there is a difference on the machine, or the upgrade has not been completed and shut down, or the upgrade method may be different(udisk or web)?
Rigol 800 upgrade will prompt to ensure 200M Bytes of local space.
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Hi,
just tried to update my SDS2000X+ to 1.6.2R2 with the same effect Famalex reported: the device hangs in the boot screeen :(
Previous version was 1.5.2R1 and I tried to update via the file manager and USB-stick
Hope there is help to fix this without sending the oscilloscope to Siglent ...
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Hi,
just tried to update my SDS2000X+ to 1.6.2R2 with the same effect Famalex reported: the device hangs in the boot screen :(
Previous version was 1.5.2R1 and I tried to update via the file manager and USB-stick
Hope there is help to fix this without sending the oscilloscope to Siglent ...
Just reported to Siglent with urgency.
Currently I'm doing tests......Please be aware after this V1.6.2R1 installation first boot time will be 2+ minutes.....be patient.
PM me with your email.
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Hi,
just tried to update my SDS2000X+ to 1.6.2R2 with the same effect Famalex reported: the device hangs in the boot screen :(
Previous version was 1.5.2R1 and I tried to update via the file manager and USB-stick
Hope there is help to fix this without sending the oscilloscope to Siglent ...
Just reported to Siglent with urgency.
Currently I'm doing tests......Please be aware after this V1.6.2R1 installation first boot time will be 2+ minutes.....be patient.
PM me with your email.
I had also a uggly experience on update:
. as using external USB stick
. fw gets loaded
. reboot as never gets in action
. tested again no any better
. then once complaining about low local space
. ok deleted all on the local disk
. tested again without success
. rebooted
. now it worked
the bug is that the space calculation is false as in addition more space is required to do a proper reboot and required fw update
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All.
We are successfully recovering these boot freezes and successfully reinstalling the latest V1.6.2R1 firmware.
V1.6.2R1 has been pulled from websites.
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In XY mode the timebase doesn't matter, because the scope is not plotting voltage*time, but voltage*voltage
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Hi,
many thanks to tautech for the fast support :)
I could fix my scope and now version 1.6.2R1 is running :-)
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Thanks to Tautech and everyone involved in solving this problem. I was the first victim of this bug, but apparently I will be the last to correct it. I just don't have free time. :)
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All.
We are successfully recovering these boot freezes and successfully reinstalling the latest V1.6.2R1 firmware.
V1.6.2R1 has been pulled from websites.
Great!
But how to do that?
-
I updated mine to 1.6.2R1 using the web interface.
As tautech says it did take much longer to start when it rebooted but it did eventually start.
Is the issue strictly when updating from USB or is it more "random"?
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I updated from USB and had no issues at all.
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Hello,
It seem that the V1.6.2R1 firmware has been removed, I don't find it anymore on
previously given.
Frex
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Hi,
See:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg5428514/#msg5428514 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg5428514/#msg5428514)
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All.
We are successfully recovering these boot freezes and successfully reinstalling the latest V1.6.2R1 firmware.
V1.6.2R1 has been pulled from websites.
My scope is also dead after firmware update to V1.6.2R1.
What should I do to restore it? A PM is sent, thanks!
P.S. This FW has also been removed from the Chinese official website.
-
All.
We are successfully recovering these boot freezes and successfully reinstalling the latest V1.6.2R1 firmware.
V1.6.2R1 has been pulled from websites.
Great!
But how to do that?
Contact me via PM with your email.
-
Just reported to Siglent with urgency.
Currently I'm doing tests......Please be aware after this V1.6.2R1 installation first boot time will be 2+ minutes.....be patient.
It installed OK here from a USB stick. I was running the previous "latest" version. Scope is Uboot 5.4.0 and my hwd version is 05-05.
WoD
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Boot time has increased significantly in 1.6.2. Previously it was about 45 seconds, now it is approximately 70 seconds. The execution time of the "Default setup" function has also increased significantly.
The installation was completed without any problems.
-
What was new in this FW version? It has been taken down from the web therefore release notes are not available. I am just curious.
-
The bug with probe ratio detection after "Default setup" is not fixed, you have to disconnect and connect probe for correct ratio.
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What was new in this FW version? It has been taken down from the web therefore release notes are not available. I am just curious.
See Release notes here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/msg5426906/#msg5426906 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/msg5426906/#msg5426906)
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It installed OK here from a USB stick. I was running the previous "latest" version. Scope is Uboot 5.4.0 and my hwd version is 05-05.
WoD
I updated the FW (SDS2000X+_1.6.2R1.ADS) without any problems using a USB stick. The last FW was 1.5.2R3.
Uboot-OS Version: 5.0.0
Hardware Version: 02-04
Local Drive: 68.4M/73.8M
Hope that helps.
Cheers
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It installed OK here from a USB stick. I was running the previous "latest" version. Scope is Uboot 5.4.0 and my hwd version is 05-05.
WoD
I updated the FW (SDS2000X+_1.6.2R1.ADS) without any problems using a USB stick. The last FW was 1.5.2R3.
Uboot-OS Version: 5.0.0
Hardware Version: 02-04
Local Drive: 68.4M/73.8M
Hope that helps.
Cheers
Thanks.
Every data point helps Siglent to find where the update problem actually is.
I updated a new SDS2354X Plus from 1.6.2 beta version without issue :phew: however I did a Default first....
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The bug with probe ratio detection after "Default setup" is not fixed, you have to disconnect and connect probe for correct ratio.
You could try the following:
Connect 2 probes with auto-sense, e.g. ch1 and ch2.
Call up the decode menu, select a decoder, e.g. I²C.
Assign SDA and SCL to the channels, set the thresholds to say 1.6V, then exit the menu.
Restart the scope, go back to the decoder menu and check whether the thresholds have remained at 1.6V.
-
When the scope is first loaded or restarted, probes are detected correctly.
The error occurs when pressing the "Default" button (or select "Default setup" from menu) only.
-
Updated to 1.6.2R1 successfully.
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When the scope is first loaded or restarted, probes are detected correctly.
The error occurs when pressing the "Default" button (or select "Default setup" from menu) only.
OK, that means you have tested my suggestion.
Then something has already been fixed in that direction, because that was a point that clearly went to the bug with the auto-sense.
Because after a restart the thresholds were adjusted, this did not happen when using probes without auto-sense.
The same applied to the Bode plot when you left it again.
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The same applied to the Bode plot when you left it again.
Exactly!
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You could try the following:
Connect 2 probes with auto-sense, e.g. ch1 and ch2.
Call up the decode menu, select a decoder, e.g. I²C.
Assign SDA and SCL to the channels, set the thresholds to say 1.6V, then exit the menu.
Restart the scope, go back to the decoder menu and check whether the thresholds have remained at 1.6V.
FW 1.6.2R1
After a reboot auto-sense probes are detected correctly.
The threshold at CH1 (SCL) remains at 1.6V, while the threshold at CH2 (SDA) changes from 1.6V to 167mV.
I also noticed the same behavior after a shutdown and a restart.
After pressing the "Default" button, the auto-sense probes are no longer recognized. For channels 2, 3 and 4, unplugging and plugging in helps, but for channel 1, 10:1 must be set manually.
The following new behavior has been added: The "Hide Menu" time is reset to 5s. My default setting was 30s.
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Thanks to Tautech's help, my oscilloscope came to life. I installed the latest FW update. So far everything is working fine. :-+
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I updated to 1.6.2R1 two nights ago through USB with no issues. Had been on 1.5.2R1 before that.
Hardware Version: 02-04
Uboot-OS Version: 5.0
CPLD Version: 03
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Where can I find the latest firmware, V1.5 2R3 is the last one displayed for me
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It was pulled from the web due to several people bricking their scope during the update so there might be an issue with it.
I usually wait a while before updating, especially so if I don't have a real need to do it. In this case I jumped on it for no particullar reason but got away with it.
tautech has helped those on the forum who bricked their scopes to recover so it's not catatrophic but still...
If you REALLY want/need it someone (including me) can email it to you but if I were you I'd just wait for a new version to pop up the official way.
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If that's the case, I'd rather wait, thanks for the answer
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It was pulled from the web due to several people bricking their scope during the update so there might be an issue with it.
I usually wait a while before updating, especially so if I don't have a real need to do it. In this case I jumped on it for no particullar reason but got away with it.
tautech has helped those on the forum who bricked their scopes to recover so it's not catatrophic but still...
If you REALLY want/need it someone (including me) can email it to you but if I were you I'd just wait for a new version to pop up the official way.
In addition NEW bugs introduced as the Beta follower had other things to do and Siglents Quality Control is as ugly as it gets O:((
Also for this kind of release an very long ride. Look also on SDS2K plus bug thread.
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Siglents Quality Control is as ugly as it gets O:((
I'd probably have to disagree with this. I own 7 Siglent instruments and have no update issues or egregious bugs so far. On the other hand I have had some pretty bad issues with all sorts of equipment from so called "top tier" manufacturers. Except DEC. Not saying they did not have issues, just that in decades of running their computers I never found any. Maybe their attention to detail and quest for perfection is what eventually lead to their demise.
Siglent are better than most and no worse than many.
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In addition NEW bugs introduced as the Beta follower had other things to do and Siglents Quality Control is as ugly as it gets O:((
If you think Siglent's QC is 'as ugly as it gets,' you've lived a very limited/sheltered TE life. 🙄
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Siglent could make it easy for itself and throw something on the market and then hardly care about it any more - sounds familiar, doesn't it...
Instead, improvements are constantly being made, even for devices in this price range plus additional new functions.
Instead of being happy that you can experience such support for the little money, some still complain.
For the cheapest "real" Lecroy, for example, you pay around 5000€.
And the device only has basic functions; additional options cost as much individually as an SDS2000Xplus.
In return, the A-brand makes you feel that you have bought the cheapest and makes you wait years for an overdue update because there are really bad bugs that should be fixed(personal experience).
And there's no mention of any additional features.
If you want more functionality, buy something new and bigger.
As I said, even the cheapest model at around €500 is still being improved, extended and listened to by buyers.
I know from our software programmers that they may have created a new "bug" while "slaying" an old one; you can't keep an eye on everything and/or test it 110% accurately.
That's why I'm relaxed about it, because the new bug will also be killed.
Especially as we're not talking about something that makes the device unusable until a new firmware is released.
That is also a bad habit here in the forum, regardless of the manufacturer.
People always act as if it's something really bad, which shows that some people have no idea about production processes.
For example, when we have completed a customer project, we have checked it completely and found no errors, everything is running well.
Then the customers come to inspect the appliance - and they approach the appliance in a completely different way to the builders.
And then there's a to-do list, often several pages long, with things that we didn't notice but the customer did, small bugs/errors, improvement requests, etc.
However, we are not blamed for this.
This is a completely normal process because both sides know that there is always something to improve/correct.
You can learn something from this professionalism:
Relaxation is sometimes the order of the day. ;)
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Calling @Frex to post screenshots of the Sys Info page of the unit we helped to recover.
This info can be helpful to Siglent to find where the update issue is.
Previous FW version too if remembered.
TIA
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Hello,
A screenshot of sysinfo of my "recovered" SDS2104X-Plus.
(Thanks to Tautech :) )
Regards.
Frex
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In XY mode the timebase doesn't matter, because the scope is not plotting voltage*time, but voltage*voltage
i've found that timebase does matter, at least on all my oscilloscopes, because the XY plotter will plot everything currently in memory, too fast a timebase compared to the input signals and you only get choppy bits of the whole picture, too slow a timebase, and if the picture changes too quickly, you get the full picture, plus remnants from the previous "frame", plus all the "connecting lines"
-
In XY mode the timebase doesn't matter, because the scope is not plotting voltage*time, but voltage*voltage
i've found that timebase does matter, at least on all my oscilloscopes, because the XY plotter will plot everything currently in memory, too fast a timebase compared to the input signals and you only get choppy bits of the whole picture, too slow a timebase, and if the picture changes too quickly, you get the full picture, plus remnants from the previous "frame", plus all the "connecting lines"
Interesting. However, it sounds like you're describing my experience with adjusting the memory depth. It's likely the timebase's effect on the memory depth that you're seeing affect XY mode.
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In XY mode the timebase doesn't matter, because the scope is not plotting voltage*time, but voltage*voltage
i've found that timebase does matter, at least on all my oscilloscopes, because the XY plotter will plot everything currently in memory, too fast a timebase compared to the input signals and you only get choppy bits of the whole picture, too slow a timebase, and if the picture changes too quickly, you get the full picture, plus remnants from the previous "frame", plus all the "connecting lines"
Interesting. However, it sounds like you're describing my experience with adjusting the memory depth. It's likely the timebase's effect on the memory depth that you're seeing affect XY mode.
i do this mostly with the analog discovery 2, with 8k points, and have found timebase matters even if memory stays the same. when i did this on my keysight which has no way to adjust memory depth, i also found timebase mattered, especially since to get a good image i had to use the high resolution mode, which gets weird at the faster timebases, sometimes seeing just a bunch of thick blurry points if too fast, or chunks of the image if too slow, the keysight is dead now, so i can't see this new song on that one, sadly.
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i do this mostly with the analog discovery 2, with 8k points, and have found timebase matters even if memory stays the same. when i did this on my keysight which has no way to adjust memory depth, i also found timebase mattered, especially since to get a good image i had to use the high resolution mode, which gets weird at the faster timebases, sometimes seeing just a bunch of thick blurry points if too fast, or chunks of the image if too slow, the keysight is dead now, so i can't see this new song on that one, sadly.
I'll try it out and see what happens with my Siglent.
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Interesting. However, it sounds like you're describing my experience with adjusting the memory depth. It's likely the timebase's effect on the memory depth that you're seeing affect XY mode.
The main issue with DSOs and XY plots is actually "blind time". For an analog CRO without cursors or indicators there should be no blind time, but on a DSO blind time can exceed 99%. Blind time can be calculated if you know the timebase and refresh rate (waveforms per second). Reducing the memory depth decreases the processing time and increases your waveform rate. For rapidly changing XY patterns like your music test, small memory and short timebases with a high waveform rate may look the best even though the signal is actually getting chopped up into small segments. There's an ideal setting for this that gives you a very high waveform rate (as in actually almost meets the advertised spec) but I don't recall that setting at the moment.
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Interesting. However, it sounds like you're describing my experience with adjusting the memory depth. It's likely the timebase's effect on the memory depth that you're seeing affect XY mode.
The main issue with DSOs and XY plots is actually "blind time". For an analog CRO without cursors or indicators there should be no blind time, but on a DSO blind time can exceed 99%. Blind time can be calculated if you know the timebase and refresh rate (waveforms per second). Reducing the memory depth decreases the processing time and increases your waveform rate. For rapidly changing XY patterns like your music test, small memory and short timebases with a high waveform rate may look the best even though the signal is actually getting chopped up into small segments. There's an ideal setting for this that gives you a very high waveform rate (as in actually almost meets the advertised spec) but I don't recall that setting at the moment.
That was my assumption regarding the timebase adjustments. I just tested it out, and the waveform rate around 2 - 5MSa/s seems to be the best performance for that music. Going too high on the timebase made it both slow down and reduce the waveform proportions on screen. That's with 10kpts set as max mem depth.
-
Here's a slightly extreme comparison for refresh/mem depth. At 1Gs/s, the image is squished. I wonder what the intended rate is from the music.
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Here's a slightly extreme comparison for refresh/mem depth. At 1Gs/s, the image is squished. I wonder what the intended rate is from the music.
Shameless plug to my attempt with the HD ;)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-hd-12bit-(published-for-chinese-domestic-market-only)/msg5446511/#msg5446511 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-hd-12bit-(published-for-chinese-domestic-market-only)/msg5446511/#msg5446511)
Scope settings:
Input settings (CH1, CH2) : 50-ohm termination, DC coupled, 20M BW limit
Timebase : 1 ms/div, 1 MSa/s, 10 kpts memory
Trigger : Normal, alternating edge, CH1, AC coupled, 0V offset
Using the high quality .WAV file, playing it back at high bit-rate and resolution makes a huge difference. Interested to see if that increases quality on the Plus as well. ;D
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I bought a copy of OsciStudio to test this out, and eventually make a very stupid video.
In the meantime, it was useful to test both refresh rates and audio frequency effect on the XY results:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lC-0o_5GcY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lC-0o_5GcY)
The first section is more obvious, that's scrolling through refresh rates (first 50 seconds). The last 30 seconds is screwing around with the frequency of the shape. Chris's tutorial shows him using A1 at 55Hz, which is (one of the reasons) why my results aren't as great with his music. A4 at 440Hz (and really most notes over ~100Hz) show much greater stability on my scope.
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Scope settings:
Input settings (CH1, CH2) : 50-ohm termination, DC coupled, 20M BW limit
Timebase : 1 ms/div, 1 MSa/s, 10 kpts memory
Trigger : Normal, alternating edge, CH1, AC coupled, 0V offset
Using the high quality .WAV file, playing it back at high bit-rate and resolution makes a huge difference. Interested to see if that increases quality on the Plus as well. ;D
Your settings are pretty close to where I landed after my test video. However, the default edge trigger and your trigger settings didn't appear to make any perceivable (to me) difference, neither did changing coupling.
I will make another video to see if I can get better results than my previous attempt.
Thanks,
Josh
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Interested to see if that increases quality on the Plus as well. ;D
I did some tests to see if anything made any significant impact in quality. The short answer: nope. The HD model has better hardware, and the results show it. At least that's my uneducated guess. 😉
I tried all sorts of things including running my audio card at 44.1kHz to 192kHz (with the wav file loaded in Studio One to match the output settings).
I also tried using some mp4 files that came with the software purchase (not sure if they're available free), and that let me tweak some settings. Unfortunately, the result was I couldn't get a happy medium between memory depth and refresh rate to reduce flickering, or maintain enough of the image. It still looked pretty good, but is just another thing (that doesn't matter) that makes me want an HD scope.