Siglent SDS2000X Plus

[refd]

Thanks all again.  I would be with you Martin72 in a heart beat if I was not fortunate enough to have some clients that pay well for my services.  One reason to me to pay the premium was to get a base instrument that would do what I needed out of the box.  My programming skills stopped with assembly so there is a good chance I might screw up the upgrades.  With all I see here that would really be disappointing on my part.  I will be posting soon to test your hard work.  Let me know if you need anything from the virgin instrument like a binary dump prior to any fiddling.

[Vestom]

Just a little Sunday fun

HackRF: 800MHz, 0dBm -> SDS2504X+, Dot display mode, Persistance 1s  (Gain appx -4dBm)

[bobof]

What are nice quality, useable well matched 10x probes to use with this scope up to 500MHz?

I have the PP215s on a previous 1204-XE and dislike them with a passion.  Crappy switch that moves itself, unsharp tips, naff tip ground springs, limited accessories, etc.  I've not opened the new probes with the 2104X Plus yet.

Just got a Cal Test CT3288ARA/P6501R which fixed all the annoyances (no switch, sharp gold tips, nice spring tip ground selection included, some useful accessories) - but the compensation doesn't seem to come brilliantly into line.  I'll happily admit I don't have much experience with higher bandwidth probes and compensation, perhaps my expectations are unrealistic.  If I compare an old PP215 (ch1) to a Pico TA046 differential 800MHz probe I have (ch4) and the P6501R (ch3) the PP215 seems to be able to be true-er to the original signal.

Thoughts?

[bobof]

Is everyone's probe readout / probe detect function working as expected?
On the only probe I have with this - Cal Test CT3288ARA/P6501R discussed above - the behaviour I see is:

If I power up with the probe with readout pin connected to any channel on boot I see: "Probe detected: channel x", where x is correct channel.  Probe disconnecting and reconnecting never again yields a probe detect message on any of the channels (not just the channel that had the probe attached to start with).

If I power up without any probes connected, then the "probe detected: channel x" and "probe disconnected: channel x" messages all work as you'd expect; every time you connect or disconnect a probe the message appears.  .

So it seems that if you have a readout-enabled probe connected at boot that the readout only ever works that first time during the boot process and is dead ever after.  Bug, faulty unit, or some weird logic I'm not understanding the benefit of?

My readout pin measures 10.7K to BNC shield.

In the niggles stakes, not having had a scope with readout before, I find it mildly annoying that if you remove a probe with readout that it goes back to 1x, instead of back to whatever you'd set it to last time you'd changed it and not had a probe with readout connected, but I guess that is just "the way it is"...  On the basis of seeing how it behaves I'd almost prefer to have the readout function disabled.  (eg have a probe without readout connected, set to 10x manually, connect readout probe and disconnect, it's gone back to 1x).

[tautech]

Is everyone's probe readout / probe detect function working as expected?
On the only probe I have with this - Cal Test CT3288ARA/P6501R discussed above - the behaviour I see is:

If I power up with the probe with readout pin connected to any channel on boot I see: "Probe detected: channel x", where x is correct channel.  Probe disconnecting and reconnecting never again yields a probe detect message on any of the channels (not just the channel that had the probe attached to start with).

If I power up without any probes connected, then the "probe detected: channel x" and "probe disconnected: channel x" messages all work as you'd expect; every time you connect or disconnect a probe the message appears.  .

So it seems that if you have a readout-enabled probe connected at boot that the readout only ever works that first time during the boot process and is dead ever after. Bug, faulty unit, or some weird logic I'm not understanding the benefit of?

It's a dumb bug. 
BTW, to quote the FW version that has an apparent bug is always a good idea. 

In the niggles stakes, not having had a scope with readout before, I find it mildly annoying that if you remove a probe with readout that it goes back to 1x, instead of back to whatever you'd set it to last time you'd changed it and not had a probe with readout connected, but I guess that is just "the way it is"...  On the basis of seeing how it behaves I'd almost prefer to have the readout function disabled.  (eg have a probe without readout connected, set to 10x manually, connect readout probe and disconnect, it's gone back to 1x).

That has been normal behavior for all the probe sense Siglents I've had as removal of the probe indicates to the scope you're planning to connect a 1x probe or a BNC cable.
I guess when you think it through it's not possible to please everyone all of the time. 

What would be a universal probe/BNC sense attenuation solution ?
IDK. 

[bobof]

Is everyone's probe readout / probe detect function working as expected?
On the only probe I have with this - Cal Test CT3288ARA/P6501R discussed above - the behaviour I see is:

If I power up with the probe with readout pin connected to any channel on boot I see: "Probe detected: channel x", where x is correct channel.  Probe disconnecting and reconnecting never again yields a probe detect message on any of the channels (not just the channel that had the probe attached to start with).

It's a dumb bug. 
BTW, to quote the FW version that has an apparent bug is always a good idea. 

Thanks, I'm on 1.3.5R10 latest (scope arrived a few days ago with R7 on it which I see isn't on download site).  I never tried it unfortunately with R7.
Do I need to report or is it well known?  I did try to find it in this thread and the bug thread but perhaps my search-fu was weak on this one...  Sounds like you are aware of the issue.

In the niggles stakes, not having had a scope with readout before, I find it mildly annoying that if you remove a probe with readout that it goes back to 1x, instead of back to whatever you'd set it to last time you'd changed it and not had a probe with readout connected, but I guess that is just "the way it is"...  On the basis of seeing how it behaves I'd almost prefer to have the readout function disabled.  (eg have a probe without readout connected, set to 10x manually, connect readout probe and disconnect, it's gone back to 1x).

That has been normal behavior for all the probe sense Siglents I've had as removal of the probe indicates to the scope you're planning to connect a 1x probe or a BNC cable.
I guess when you think it through it's not possible to please everyone all of the time. 

What would be a universal probe/BNC sense attenuation solution ?
IDK. 

In my use case (which might not be common I guess) I will often be connecting my Pico TA046 diff probe which has no readout contact but is fixed 10x. Probably less frequent would be swapping a readout 10x fixed probe for a non-readout 10x/1x switchable, usually set to 10x (unless I've had a PP215 finger accident...).  Maybe I'll just try and standardise which ports I'm using for which probes.  It's sometimes easier to just swap probes on the same channel than move all the settings and the trigger to the different channel.

If the "always switch back to 1x without readout" functionality is highly desirable (are there 10x/1x switchable probes which switch the readout value too when sliding the switch?) then just provide an option (per channel ideally, if not for whole scope) that controls the behaviour.  So the option is "No probe readout" and the settings are "1x" or "last set".

[2N3055]

If the "always switch back to 1x without readout" functionality is highly desirable (are there 10x/1x switchable probes which switch the readout value too when sliding the switch?) then just provide an option (per channel ideally, if not for whole scope) that controls the behaviour.  So the option is "No probe readout" and the settings are "1x" or "last set".

To default to 1x with nothing sensed is pretty much industry standard.
On my Keysight, if I set 10x probe attn manually, then connect probe with sense pin it will stay 10x, and when I disconnect probe it resets to 1x, it doesn't get back 10x.... If you're using probes without sense pin, it keeps manual settings...

Think about it, it has to behave this way....

[tautech]

Sounds like you are aware of the issue.

Only now after checking it on a SDS2104X Plus I have here. It's a bug for sure as it shouldn't behave that way.
Sense probes should always be recognized !

What would be a universal probe/BNC sense attenuation solution ?
IDK. 

In my use case (which might not be common I guess) I will often be connecting my Pico TA046 diff probe which has no readout contact but is fixed 10x. Probably less frequent would be swapping a readout 10x fixed probe for a non-readout 10x/1x switchable, usually set to 10x (unless I've had a PP215 finger accident...).  Maybe I'll just try and standardize which ports I'm using for which probes.  It's sometimes easier to just swap probes on the same channel than move all the settings and the trigger to the different channel.

If the "always switch back to 1x without readout" functionality is highly desirable (are there 10x/1x switchable probes which switch the readout value too when sliding the switch?) then just provide an option (per channel ideally, if not for whole scope) that controls the behavior.  So the option is "No probe readout" and the settings are "1x" or "last set".

There are other settings that might work for you.
User Default.
You can set the DSO just as you like it (including probe attenuations) and then save this configuration to the Default key.
You can find this feature in the Save/Recall menu where you can save your own settings or use the factory default.
It's recommended you do a factory default first before setting a User default.
Then the probes you have can be assigned to a particular channel already set up for them with the User default.
Colored rings, colored tape or even a colored Sharpie can remind you which channel they are already configured for.

[bobof]

To default to 1x with nothing sensed is pretty much industry standard.
On my Keysight, if I set 10x probe attn manually, then connect probe with sense pin it will stay 10x, and when I disconnect probe it resets to 1x, it doesn't get back 10x.... If you're using probes without sense pin, it keeps manual settings...

Think about it, it has to behave this way....

I'll give you it sounds like this is the accepted way they behave in the industry.  I guess in my probe armory the readout really means "definitely 10x" or "don't know".  And in "don't know" I can see either going back to previous selection or always going to 1x have each got some logic to them; I would prefer going back.

I would certainly find the above option useful for sure with my probe selection, it would work much better than the current setup.  Maybe another option is just to disable probe readout function (which as it happens, the current bug does for you if you have a readout probe connected on boot!!! haha)


I think it is more common probably with hobbyists and smaller scale outfits that people are in a mixed environment (with probes acquired over time etc) than a big budget institution having a pristine set of identical OEM behaving probes.  I would have thought given Siglent ship non-readout enabled probes by default on the lower end models that this is particularly prevalent here.  Like I've done - I've added a single higher spec probe and it is annoying if I swap which port I have it connected as it cancels my manually set 10x which I was using on the PP215 probes.

Anyway, I'll move the discussion on that to the feature requests & bugs thread.  It doesn't seem like it would hurt to be able to change the behaviour away from defaulting to 1x.

[bobof]

Only now after checking it on a SDS2104X Plus I have here. It's a bug for sure as it shouldn't behave that way.
Sense probes should always be recognized !

Ok, I'll stick it in the bugs thread and report it to Siglent.

There are other settings that might work for you.
User Default.
You can set the DSO just as you like it (including probe attenuations) and then save this configuration to the Default key.
You can find this feature in the Save/Recall menu where you can save your own settings or use the factory default.
It's recommended you do a factory default first before setting a User default.
Then the probes you have can be assigned to a particular channel already set up for them with the User default.
Colored rings, colored tape or even a colored Sharpie can remind you which channel they are already configured for.

I'll probably settle for using the one readout probe I have on a single channel and trying to leave it there. 

The user defaults is an idea but probably more annoying than just changing the multiplier .  At the moment most commonly I've been swapping a probe onto the same channel and wanting to leave the rest of the settings as they were.  I'd then have to go back around and change all my channel settings except the probe

[tautech]

Only now after checking it on a SDS2104X Plus I have here. It's a bug for sure as it shouldn't behave that way.
Sense probes should always be recognized !

Ok, I'll stick it in the bugs thread and report it to Siglent.

Already done in an email a few minutes ago. 

There are other settings that might work for you.
User Default.
You can set the DSO just as you like it (including probe attenuations) and then save this configuration to the Default key.
You can find this feature in the Save/Recall menu where you can save your own settings or use the factory default.
It's recommended you do a factory default first before setting a User default.
Then the probes you have can be assigned to a particular channel already set up for them with the User default.
Colored rings, colored tape or even a colored Sharpie can remind you which channel they are already configured for.

I'll probably settle for using the one readout probe I have on a single channel and trying to leave it there. 

The user defaults is an idea but probably more annoying than just changing the multiplier .  At the moment most commonly I've been swapping a probe onto the same channel and wanting to leave the rest of the settings as they were.  I'd then have to go back around and change all my channel settings except the probe

Get your head around User defaults as it's a really powerful tool.
I prefer to use it with my scopes now and as I like the ch4 green as my primary channel the default returns the trigger and all my settings just as I like them. You can set most anything in the scope just as you like it and have it all returned with the press of a button. 

[2N3055]

Anyway, I'll move the discussion on that to the feature requests & bugs thread.  It doesn't seem like it would hurt to be able to change the behaviour away from defaulting to 1x.

I like it exactly this way. Because all scopes do it this way. So I can have same procedures on any scope... Standards are not exactly optimal for all cases, but more define common ground of deterministic behaviour, something you can rely on.
And when you change probes, you need to check probe setting anyways. 
I agree they could add a config option for this. But please do not change default behaviour...

[bobof]

For anyone here who "enjoys" putting screen protectors on their gear; this one is a perfect fit for the screen, maintains an antiglare matte finish and the touch still works perfectly.  Cheap enough at £8.69 for 2 (in fact mine came with 3 in the pack bizarrely)...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01FWXCL2O/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
They are a very close fit - I tucked the leading edge just under the left hand edge of the bezel and the trailing edge dropped perfectly into place. 
Have "fun"!

[tautech]

For anyone here who "enjoys" putting screen protectors on their gear; this one is a perfect fit for the screen, maintains an antiglare matte finish and the touch still works perfectly.  Cheap enough at £8.69 for 2 (in fact mine came with 3 in the pack bizarrely)...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01FWXCL2O/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
They are a very close fit - I tucked the leading edge just under the left hand edge of the bezel and the trailing edge dropped perfectly into place. 
Have "fun"!

Good find. 
Try a mouse with the Plus and enter another world of scope control. 
I find myself using all 3 input methods. 

[bobof]

Try a mouse with the Plus and enter another world of scope control. 

I'll have to find some desk space first!

[Howardlong]

Try a mouse with the Plus and enter another world of scope control. 

I'll have to find some desk space first!

If you have a mouse, you shouldn’t need desk space, find a shelf above the bench.

I run a KS 3104T like this with a wireless mouse.

Even better, I built a sliding keyboard drawer under the bench, the mouse can be operated with the drawer shut, so zero bench space used even for the mouse.

[Bad_Driver]

I like the mouse control of the scope, but I stay with my cabled mouse. So I have the chance to find it again on my bench by following the cable. With a wireless mouse this could be harder sometimes 

One question/remark: I use sometimes the Auto Setup button. Is their a way to avoid or switch off the following window on the screen with „Press continue to start Auto setup“?

May be with a Windows like field „Don‘t ask again“, that can be crossed.

[Vestom]

I was curious about the logic analyzer input and did some reverse engineering today.

Based on Daves pictures here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/albums/72157714555911588/with/49964493108/
we can see, that the input is a ADCMP562 comperator. Input voltage range -2V to +3V. Input impedance 750 kOhm.

Based on the pictures and measurement the pinout of the connector is found to be:


The measured input impedance directly at the connector is ~9.3 kOhm and it seems the threshold levels are scaled by appx. 1:10, which makes good sense.


Curiously it seems the CMOS levels are incorrect compared to the specified levels...

The probe SPL2016 is specified with 100 kOhm input, so a naive implementation would probably be a 91 kOhm resistor in series nearest the probe tip and probably an AC termination with ~100 Ohm to minimize reflections.

Anybody want to collaborate on a DIY solution?

[TK]

I was curious about the logic analyzer input and did some reverse engineering today.

Based on Daves pictures here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/albums/72157714555911588/with/49964493108/
we can see, that the input is a ADCMP562 comperator. Input voltage range -2V to +3V. Input impedance 750 kOhm.

Based on the pictures and measurement the pinout of the connector is found to be:
(Attachment Link)

The measured input impedance directly at the connector is ~9.3 kOhm and it seems the threshold levels are scaled by appx. 1:10, which makes good sense.
(Attachment Link)

Curiously it seems the CMOS levels are incorrect compared to the specified levels...

The probe SPL2016 is specified with 100 kOhm input, so a naive implementation would probably be a 91 kOhm resistor in series nearest the probe tip and probably an AC termination with ~100 Ohm to minimize reflections.

Anybody want to collaborate on a DIY solution?

Already done. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3079002/?topicseen#msg3079002

[dEdt]

Hi all,

I got here after watching Daves Siglent SDS2000X Series Oscilloscope Teardown on Youtube. For me this is an extremely interesting and helpful forum. My first scope was a Hameg HM 705 analog scope with 70 MHz bandwidth I purchased forty years ago and I still own. I bought the 2104X Plus with the Logic Probe hardware two weeks ago not at least based on the information I got from this thread. I am looking forward to exchange with you my thoughts and operating experiences with this machine.

By the way I do have problems with some intermittent contact loss on three logical channels, see attached photos. The connection to the scope seems to be the area of the failure as this effect can be provoked by slightly wiggling the connector on Scope side. Does anyone else have seen comparable issues?

Kind Regards
jse

PS Sorry for the "Germish"

[tautech]

By the way I do have problems with some intermittent contact loss on three logical channels, see attached photos. The connection to the scope seems to be the area of the failure as this effect can be provoked by slightly wiggling the connector on Scope side. Does anyone else have seen comparable issues?

Just checked a unit I have here with very few if any Logic probe cycles and yes some intermittency in its connection here too however on just one channel.
So I pressed and held both probe release catches then pulled and pushed it a few times to clear any possible tarnishing from the pads and contacts which seems to have totally fixed it.   

So it seems just a few removal/insertion cycles will improve intermittent connections.

[dEdt]

By the way I do have problems with some intermittent contact loss on three logical channels, see attached photos. The connection to the scope seems to be the area of the failure as this effect can be provoked by slightly wiggling the connector on Scope side. Does anyone else have seen comparable issues?

Just checked a unit I have here with very few if any Logic probe cycles and yes some intermittency in its connection here too however on just one channel.
So I pressed and held both probe release catches then pulled and pushed it a few times to clear any possible tarnishing from the pads and contacts which seems to have totally fixed it.   


So it seems just a few removal/insertion cycles will improve intermittent connections.

Hi tautech,

thanks for the quick feedback. I did the cycling trick as well. But the effect remains. I hope it is a contact surface problem anyhow on PCB side and NOT a problem on Scope side (Connector, Soldering, PCB)...

Regards
jse

[tautech]

By the way I do have problems with some intermittent contact loss on three logical channels, see attached photos. The connection to the scope seems to be the area of the failure as this effect can be provoked by slightly wiggling the connector on Scope side. Does anyone else have seen comparable issues?

Just checked a unit I have here with very few if any Logic probe cycles and yes some intermittency in its connection here too however on just one channel.
So I pressed and held both probe release catches then pulled and pushed it a few times to clear any possible tarnishing from the pads and contacts which seems to have totally fixed it.   


So it seems just a few removal/insertion cycles will improve intermittent connections.

I did the cycling trick as well. But the effect remains. I hope it is a contact surface problem anyhow on PCB side and NOT a problem on Scope side (Connector, Soldering, PCB)...

Understood but let's look at the PCiE socket which I think is through hole and millions of them get soldered onto PC PCB's without problems.
Someone mentioned a while back they do have a mating cycle life however without looking it up I don't know what it is. Maybe yours just needs a few more insertion/removal cycles ? 

Time to get my magnifying glass out ....... 

[dEdt]

By the way I do have problems with some intermittent contact loss on three logical channels, see attached photos. The connection to the scope seems to be the area of the failure as this effect can be provoked by slightly wiggling the connector on Scope side. Does anyone else have seen comparable issues?

Just checked a unit I have here with very few if any Logic probe cycles and yes some intermittency in its connection here too however on just one channel.
So I pressed and held both probe release catches then pulled and pushed it a few times to clear any possible tarnishing from the pads and contacts which seems to have totally fixed it.   


So it seems just a few removal/insertion cycles will improve intermittent connections.

I did the cycling trick as well. But the effect remains. I hope it is a contact surface problem anyhow on PCB side and NOT a problem on Scope side (Connector, Soldering, PCB)...

Understood but let's look at the PCiE socket which I think is through hole and millions of them get soldered onto PC PCB's without problems.
Someone mentioned a while back they do have a mating cycle life however without looking it up I don't know what it is. Maybe yours just needs a few more insertion/removal cycles ? 

Time to get my magnifying glass out ....... 

Hi tautech,

true, so probably on probe side. It is interesting that it is related to channel 8, 9 and 10 which are located at the edge of the PCB connector (thanks to info from Vestom). Hmmm
I contacted my supplier for further treatment, let's see.

Regards
jse

[tautech]

By the way I do have problems with some intermittent contact loss on three logical channels, see attached photos. The connection to the scope seems to be the area of the failure as this effect can be provoked by slightly wiggling the connector on Scope side. Does anyone else have seen comparable issues?

Just checked a unit I have here with very few if any Logic probe cycles and yes some intermittency in its connection here too however on just one channel.
So I pressed and held both probe release catches then pulled and pushed it a few times to clear any possible tarnishing from the pads and contacts which seems to have totally fixed it.   


So it seems just a few removal/insertion cycles will improve intermittent connections.

I did the cycling trick as well. But the effect remains. I hope it is a contact surface problem anyhow on PCB side and NOT a problem on Scope side (Connector, Soldering, PCB)...

Understood but let's look at the PCiE socket which I think is through hole and millions of them get soldered onto PC PCB's without problems.
Someone mentioned a while back they do have a mating cycle life however without looking it up I don't know what it is. Maybe yours just needs a few more insertion/removal cycles ? 

Time to get my magnifying glass out ....... 

true, so probably on probe side. It is interesting that it is related to channel 8, 9 and 10 which are located at the edge of the PCB connector (thanks to info from Vestom). Hmmm
I contacted my supplier for further treatment, let's see.

Update.
A close inspection of the MSO probe plug didn't identify any obvious issues however cleaning of the PCiE plug PCB pads with a cotton bud and IPA has solved all intermittent MSO probe connection problems.
Note, one side has just enough clearance for an ordinary cotton bud while the other side requires a thinner bud or one bashed/squeezed thin or stripped down some.

I'll be checking new stock MSO probes for any repeat of this issue and advising Siglent if there is.