EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: Blisk on June 13, 2017, 02:03:59 pm
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I finally bought this oscilloscope, but until the 1st of July they offer also licence for generator and logic probe and you get some more.
Anybody knows if I don't have this licence (SDS-2000X-FG) than this wave generator is limited or doesn't work at all?
I still believe this is really expencive to pay 450€ fot 4 licences.
http://siglenteu.com/qyxwxx.aspx?id=2702&sid=210 (http://siglenteu.com/qyxwxx.aspx?id=2702&sid=210)
And also I think this I will never use SDS-2000X-DC
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in the 450€ you also get the logic probe which alone cost 335€
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I have the SDS2204X with the logic analyzer showing up today. It should include the FG and serial decoders as well. It's a reasonable price for the scope. And the cost for the logic probes isn't horrible. The main thing that kept me from buying it sooner was the lack of LXI support on the Ethernet port. And I still find it surprising that Siglent doesn't include USB LS/FS decoding in their serial decoders.
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what about generator does it work or not withouth licence?
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what about generator does it work or not withouth licence?
The FG does require a license. The deal I got was "Purchase MSO Option and receive Function Gen and Serial Decoder".
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So it didn't work until you get code?
Because mine works withouth code.
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So it didn't work until you get code?
Because mine works withouth code.
That is because there is a trial license active! IIRC something like 30 days and after that you'll need to buy the option.
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Ok I thought so.
But still think it is too expencive for what they offer with these licences.
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One other question -- can the bandwidth be upgraded from 200 to 300MHz with a license key?
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One other question -- can the bandwidth be upgraded from 200 to 300MHz with a license key?
Theoretically yes but at this time Siglent have not offered BW upgrades as an option, so NO not ATM.
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at this time Siglent have not offered BW upgrades as an option, so NO not ATM.
Understood.
I received the SDS2204X today and am putting it through its paces. One issue I am facing is that the scope is showing a 3.2mV offset (visible @10mV/div). It's better after running a self-calibration. Prior to that, it was ~10mV off. Is there a way to manually zero this offset?
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at this time Siglent have not offered BW upgrades as an option, so NO not ATM.
Understood.
I received the SDS2204X today and am putting it through its paces. One issue I am facing is that the scope is showing a 3.2mV offset (visible @10mV/div). It's better after running a self-calibration. Prior to that, it was ~10mV off. Is there a way to manually zero this offset?
It is common in most scopes to see some 0V offset at high sensitivity settings and all channels are different and some will disappear when the scope has fully warmed up. Self Cal must be performed when warm. There's also an Auto Cal that runs periodically but it's inclined to upset workflow and hence most don't enable it, however it's there to combat temp fluctuations in the test environment and keep the scope in spec.
You say 10mV/div, is this with 10x input attenuation setting ?
If so, of course the scope is at maximum sensitivity; 1mV/div.
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One other question -- can the bandwidth be upgraded from 200 to 300MHz with a license key?
That was offer last year when you buy 2 and get 4.
But still this is far too expencive, you get oscilloscope for fair price and than to unlock things you pay again half of price of oscilloscope.
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One other question -- can the bandwidth be upgraded from 200 to 300MHz with a license key?
That was offer last year when you buy 2 and get 4.
But still this is far too expencive, you get oscilloscope for fair price and than to unlock things you pay again half of price of oscilloscope.
Not exactly.
Paying for a 200 MHz model, you would get a 300 MHz model as per the promotion which BTW is still running.
http://www.siglenteu.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1195&T=2&tid=1 (http://www.siglenteu.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1195&T=2&tid=1)
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I didn't see anywhere for paying and get 300Mhz, last year was promotion you buy 2 and get 4, something like this year.
So how much is licence for 300Mhz and what you get extra with that?
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I didn't see anywhere for paying and get 300Mhz, last year was promotion you buy 2 and get 4, something like this year.
There's 2 parts to the promotion, the first the free BW upgrade so if you wanted the 300 MHz you only need pay the 200 MHz price. eg. 100 MHz model for 70 MHz price.
Second is the option package, buy the LA package (probe and licence) and get the other 2 options free (FG and Decode).
All options are able to be used for the free trial period as nctnico mentioned. Each option can be selected off or on within the menus and the trial times apply/count for each time an option is activated.
So if you think you only have rare use for Decode it might last you for a long time.
Same for each of the other options.
So how much is licence for 300Mhz and what you get extra with that?
There is no 300 MHz licence, only the choice to buy the 300 MHz model.
As the promotion is getting near its end date I suggest you contact your seller and see if they can add the option bundle to your purchase as it may never be cheaper.
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Thank you for that info, I thought this oscilloscopes are locked down as Rigol.
This offer what they offers today it will be again, because there is alot of competition on this field and as other companies will ofer more for less money, Siglent will follow.
For now I don't need logic probe and also not generator, I already have one. But in future when they will offer the same for less I will buy licence.
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I'm considering upgrading from a Rigol DS1102E. The SDS2202X promotion (buy the LA and get the FG & Decode for free) makes it quite attractive. I'd like to hear what owners who have been using one heavily for 6 months or more have to say. How stable is the FW?
I'm especially interested in using it for data acquisition over a LAN or else dumping data to a large USB hard drive. So comments on experience doing that are of particular interest.
Thanks
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Beware that this scope may only support VXI which means needing to use NI's Visa bloatware.
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I'm especially interested in using it for data acquisition over a LAN or else dumping data to a large USB hard drive. So comments on experience doing that are of particular interest.
TL;DR: What you want to do certainly can be done, but the documentation you will need in order to do it could be a hell of a lot better from Siglent.
The lack of LXI is a problem for this scope. But it is not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that the SCPI commands are poorly documented. Some commands return binary data. Interpreting that binary data is left as an exercise for the reader. See the documentation for the FRAME_PARAM command as an example.
Have a look at the commands needed to configure the logic analyzer of this MSO and download data from LA and protocol decoders and tell me what you find. Same goes for the built-in AWG. Hint: They are all missing.
If you need further convincing, download the SCPI programming guide for the 2000X scope and compare it's contents to similar documentation available from the likes of Rigol (such as for their MSO1000Z). The documentation for the Rigol scope, the data it returns, the LA and AWG are far more complete, better organized, and easier to understand.
I have found the USB drive support to be somewhat flaky. It didn't like most of the thumb drives I inserted. Even when it worked, screenshots to USB were flaky. I wrote my own command (https://gist.github.com/mobilinkd/8a07cc124946c87715c6a1458118411e) to do a screenshot over the network and bound it to a hot key on my computer. Works much better and allows me to save in reasonable image formats (i.e. not BMP).
I like the Siglent SDS-2000X as a scope. But if you intend to use it for data acquisition over the LAN, tell Siglent you want a programming manual that completely documents how to control all aspects of the scope, the LA (including protocol decoders) and the AWG, and how to acquire data from the scope before you commit to buying.
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I'm considering upgrading from a Rigol DS1102E. The SDS2202X promotion (buy the LA and get the FG & Decode for free) makes it quite attractive. I'd like to hear what owners who have been using one heavily for 6 months or more have to say. How stable is the FW?
The latest FW has been out since May and is quite OK in my 2304X.
Do you need all the options, sure they are all useful but the single channel FG is pretty basic compared to a standalone AWG unit.
I'm especially interested in using it for data acquisition over a LAN or else dumping data to a large USB hard drive. So comments on experience doing that are of particular interest.
This is where the SDS1202X-E wins hands down, especially for saving screenshots to USB. The default is a small PNG file but JPEG and BMP are available too, whereas the 2000X series only offer BMP that takes longer to download due to it's usually 1Mb+ file size .
I delivered an X-E to a customer today that has the older SDS2204 (not X) and he was pleased to see how far they'd come from earlier times. He felt the smaller 7" X-E display wasn't a great disadvantage and was easily outweighed by free Decoding and other specs the X-E has. We spent a couple of hours going through various functionality before I left and I'd guess he's still fiddling with it. :-DMM
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Thanks to all.
The big attraction to the Siglent is the buffer depth. But I have real problems with Siglent's attitude towards documentation. The Siglent documentation for the SSA3000X is an insult to the user.
I am not much interested in screenshots. I want data I can analyze, plot and present in publication quality figures. If I can't readily transfer all the points stored in memory to a PC, the SDS2202X is a non-starter.
@colorado.rob
Have you tried asking Siglent for a description of the format? If you have and they failed to provide it in a timely manner that's a complete deal breaker for me and reason to get a Rigol DS815-TG to replace the wonky SSA3021X I just returned. I had asked for and been granted a refund, but the behavior suggested I was dealing with a HW problem rather than just a FW issue. The SSA is in transit, so I have a few days to decide on the replacement.
I became quite expert at cracking hexdumps of seismic field tapes when I started at Amoco in 1982. Multiplexed, multichannel data in "standard" formats none of which adhere to the standards. So if Siglent failed to provide format information, contact me and I'll see what I can do.
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@rhb: May I suggest to look at the GW Instek GDS2000E series? These have a very high data transfer speed (IIRC 30Mbit/s) over the network when using raw data mode. Their remote control protocol is also very well documented.
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The big attraction to the Siglent is the buffer depth.
Yep, there's little in this class that has as much.
But I have real problems with Siglent's attitude towards documentation.
Some hang up with this ? I can find all I need on the Siglent site and online. :-//
I am not much interested in screenshots. I want data I can analyze, plot and present in publication quality figures. If I can't readily transfer all the points stored in memory to a PC, the SDS2202X is a non-starter.
But you can, BMP and CSV files are easy to save directly to a USB stick with either a single press of Print (BMP) or for CSV from within the Save/Recall menu.
IIRC there's a trimmed down version of NIVISA that can allow the same data to be gained with SCPI commands.
There's Labview too but I haven't had experience with it.
Drivers:
http://siglentamerica.com/gjjrj.aspx?id=204 (http://siglentamerica.com/gjjrj.aspx?id=204)
All the documentation to do so is here:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-wd.aspx?id=1488&tid=1&T=2 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-wd.aspx?id=1488&tid=1&T=2)
Some USB screenshots and attached CSV file of the same for you to play around with:
Set to max Mpts
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2202x/?action=dlattach;attach=355978;image)
Dot mode (showing sample points)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2202x/?action=dlattach;attach=355980;image)
Remove .doc extension for attached CSV file.
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I don't think the maximum memory length stuck. If you have 140MPts of data the CSV file will likely end up to be near 1 GB(yte) in size and given the low end processor driving the SDS2000X it will take a very long time to produce and store a CSV file.
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Hi Rob,
your CSV file only contains 2k8 datapoints – as this is what the scope has sampled at this timebase.
You need to change the timebase to 10ms/div and then do the memory dump – the file will be a _little_ (lol) larger then and exceeds the file size limit for attachments here (1000kB). A quick peek with Excel will also be a problem – at least my old version is limited to 64k lines AFAIK.
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Do not think much beats PicoScopes used via SDK.
https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/3000/picoscope-3000-oscilloscope-specifications (https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/3000/picoscope-3000-oscilloscope-specifications)
3406D has 512MB of RAM, and will stream at 125 MSa/s. Usually they are conservative.
Probably just copying buffers is faster.
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Hi Rob,
your CSV file only contains 2k8 datapoints – as this is what the scope has sampled at this timebase.
You need to change the timebase to 10ms/div and then do the memory dump – the file will be a _little_ (lol) larger then and exceeds the file size limit for attachments here (1000kB). A quick peek with Excel will also be a problem – at least my old version is limited to 64k lines AFAIK.
Yes Herbie I kept screen sample size and csv capture all the same size/timebase for simplicity only.
The Acquire menu shows max memory selected and as you know Siglent DSO's manage the memory depth relative to timebase settings in a way that is plain to see and transparent. ;)
It is only simple demonstration for the doubters. ;)
Only the screenshots were reduced for small size upload.
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But I have real problems with Siglent's attitude towards documentation.
Some hang up with this ? I can find all I need on the Siglent site and online. :-//
The programming manual for the SDS2000X does not specify the size or format of the binary data returned by a number of commands. Where are those documented? The size of strings returned are not specified. Without knowing the length of a string or binary structure returned by a function it is impossible to avoid buffer overflows and crashing the program.
The SSA3000X manuals are pathetic.
"2. VBW
VBW have coupling relationship with VBW. Please refer to the introduction of "VBW"."
But I guess you might well think I have some hangup. I have a 5000+ volume technical library. When I want to find a piece of information I read a book. They are much more reliable than the Internet.
I find this sort of thing absolutely maddening:
Me: "It took 3 minutes to save a 1 Mpt CSV file to a 120 GB USB hard drive...."
OEM support: "Did you use a USB hard drive? ...."
That's approximately the first line of both emails. OEM claims 5-6 seconds to transfer 1 Mpts. Support tech wanted to discuss with a coworker yesterday afternoon. Still no response.
I am not much interested in screenshots. I want data I can analyze, plot and present in publication quality figures. If I can't readily transfer all the points stored in memory to a PC, the SDS2202X is a non-starter.
The whole point is to have 140 Mpts to work with. I'm a reflection seismologist. There is a lot of stuff I know how to do if I've got enough data and can get it into a computer quickly enough to be useful. If transferring 140 Mpts takes an hour it's of no use to me at all.
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@tautech I do not think that @rhb cares about dumping data to csv on usb. I sure do not. That does not lend itself to automation. Where is the documentation for the LA and AWG scpi commands? How are the digital lines downloaded via scpi? How does one control the protocol decoders through scpi? Do you think that the FPAR command is adequately documented?
How does one write a parser for the output of the TMPL command based on the docs provided? This is necessary in order to interpret the waveform data. Based solely on the programming docs provided, what data should one expect from this command? I should be able to write code for the scope without having the scope in front of me using just the programming reference. It is impossible.
The actual output of the "TMPL?" command is rather surprising.
@rhb I asked and was shown preliminary docs for the LA and AWG. It was incomplete and not of use for my needs. It does not exist in a publishable form. No documentation on downloading data from the LA or uploading waveforms to the AWG. Another complaint is that the AWG commands that they did provide are completely different from their bench AWG command set. So code I have written for my existing Siglent equipment cannot be reused. I was disappointed.
I have looked for Chinese versions of their docs to no avail. Anyone know if more complete docs exist in another language?
That said, the data can be decoded. Siglent does not make it easy though. And a tcpdump will show Siglent using undocumented commands from their own software.
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The programming manual for the SDS2000X does not specify the size or format of the binary data returned by a number of commands.
Nor should it, it is the programming manual is for the full range of Siglent DSO's, not only 2kX.
Where are those documented?
File types are specified in the SDS2kX User manual on P151.
The size of strings returned are not specified. Without knowing the length of a string or binary structure returned by a function it is impossible to avoid buffer overflows and crashing the program.
Good point. :-+
I'll pass that along as some indication would be good to have but of course it will be related to the DSO's configuration at the time of Save.
Maybe the Max file size that can be possibly saved would be good to have listed.
I find this sort of thing absolutely maddening:
Me: "It took 3 minutes to save a 1 Mpt CSV file to a 120 GB USB hard drive...."
OEM support: "Did you use a USB hard drive? ...."
That's approximately the first line of both emails. OEM claims 5-6 seconds to transfer 1 Mpts. Support tech wanted to discuss with a coworker yesterday afternoon. Still no response.
First I would ask as to where your emails were sent ?
As you're in the US I'm guessing to Ohio ? If they didn't know then they'll have to contact factory tech support which is in another timezone and ahead of the US. They should've given you some indication of this and that a reply might be delayed.
I am not much interested in screenshots. I want data I can analyze, plot and present in publication quality figures. If I can't readily transfer all the points stored in memory to a PC, the SDS2202X is a non-starter.
The whole point is to have 140 Mpts to work with. I'm a reflection seismologist. There is a lot of stuff I know how to do if I've got enough data and can get it into a computer quickly enough to be useful. If transferring 140 Mpts takes an hour it's of no use to me at all.
Understood.
I attach some more files for you to play with, these are with the DSO returned to the same settings as yesterday and the same AM waveform used.
As before, remove the .doc file extension.
.DAT = MATLAB
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@tautech I do not think that @rhb cares about dumping data to csv on usb. I sure do not. That does not lend itself to automation. Where is the documentation for the LA and AWG scpi commands? How are the digital lines downloaded via scpi? How does one control the protocol decoders through scpi? Do you think that the FPAR command is adequately documented?
How does one write a parser for the output of the TMPL command based on the docs provided? This is necessary in order to interpret the waveform data. Based solely on the programming docs provided, what data should one expect from this command? I should be able to write code for the scope without having the scope in front of me using just the programming reference. It is impossible.
The actual output of the "TMPL?" command is rather surprising.
@rhb I asked and was shown preliminary docs for the LA and AWG. It was incomplete and not of use for my needs. It does not exist in a publishable form. No documentation on downloading data from the LA or uploading waveforms to the AWG. Another complaint is that the AWG commands that they did provide are completely different from their bench AWG command set. So code I have written for my existing Siglent equipment cannot be reused. I was disappointed.
I have looked for Chinese versions of their docs to no avail. Anyone know if more complete docs exist in another language?
That said, the data can be decoded. Siglent does not make it easy though. And a tcpdump will show Siglent using undocumented commands from their own software.
Steve, GM of US is best to drive this until it meets users needs. I haven't had any conversation with him about any of this but I'll bring it to his attention for further improvements. Thanks Rob.
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@colorado.rob
Actually, I'd be OK with a full dump in CSV format as I normally use ASCII files as much as possible. At full USB 2.0 speed that would take a little over a minute. Gnuplot readily accepts CSV format and "the one true awk" will do damn near anything I want. For speed reasons I'd prefer binary data, but *if and only if* the format is documented and adhered to scrupulously. The really nice thing about ASCII is it's easy to see what the data really are.
@tautech
You must not have done any serious programming to think that the size of a returned value does not need to be documented in an API. Saying it is binary without describing the binary structure makes the command useless. It guarantees the software will crash at some point if you use it.
File names are not format descriptions. There is no way that anyone other than Siglent can use those file formats without a ridiculous amount of work. I learned to crack hexdumps of seismic field tapes when I started with Amoco 35 years ago. Been there, done that, don't want to do it again. So I'm not going there. I've been paid a lot of money over the years for unraveling screwed up binary data formats. I don't care to pay for the privilege of doing it on my time.
I have been reading Rigol, Siglent and GW Instek manuals for several days now. GW Instek wins hands down. The Instek GSP-9300B manual states full compliance with the 1999 version of SCPI. I don't know yet if that's true or not, but from looking at their manuals I rather expect that it is. After the agony of the SSA3000X manuals it's reassuring to see someone treating the user with respect. Siglent and Rigol don't even acknowledge that there is a standard.
I don't have and won't have any Siglent gear. My experience and Rob's comments on his experience are more than enough justification. I was a little surprised when a fellow geophysicist told me he'd bought an Instek scope, but he researched the subject very carefully before putting his money down. Instek is more money, but you get what you pay for.
The USB transfer speed was with another OEM, not Siglent.
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@tautech
You must not have done any serious programming...
I haven't and admit to such.
...to think that the size of a returned value does not need to be documented in an API.
I said nothing of the sort:
The size of strings returned are not specified. Without knowing the length of a string or binary structure returned by a function it is impossible to avoid buffer overflows and crashing the program.
Good point. :-+
I'll pass that along as some indication would be good to have but of course it will be related to the DSO's configuration at the time of Save.
Maybe the Max file size that can be possibly saved would be good to have listed. adding: in the manual.
Saying it is binary without describing the binary structure makes the command useless. It guarantees the software will crash at some point if you use it. File names are not format descriptions.
I don't know this stuff and you presume I do.
For Siglent to improve we need get up them to specify all this stuff better and as I indicated to colorado.rob the US GM is the one to drive this.
Thanks for your feedback.