Author Topic: Siglent SDS3000(X) / LeCroy WS3000(Z) - Anyone has one? (Read 6333 times)

tv84 · « **on:** November 27, 2018, 10:53:33 am »

Is there anyone around here that has a Siglent SDS3000(X) / LeCroy WS3000(Z) ?

tautech · « **Reply #1 on:** November 27, 2018, 06:32:16 pm »

Quote from: tv84 on November 27, 2018, 10:53:33 am

Is there anyone around here that has a Siglent SDS3000 ?

Most likely only in Asian countries otherwise in the west they're LeCroy WS3000.
Seen a few guys here that have them or used them.

tv84 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 27, 2018, 07:13:22 pm »

Quote from: tautech on November 27, 2018, 06:32:16 pm

Quote from: tv84 on November 27, 2018, 10:53:33 am
Is there anyone around here that has a Siglent SDS3000 ?
Most likely only in Asian countries otherwise in the west they're LeCroy WS3000.
Seen a few guys here that have them or used them.

Thankx. Rephrased my question!

Let's see if it's easier to find a unicorn.

0xdeadbeef · « **Reply #3 on:** November 27, 2018, 07:54:32 pm »

We have two WS3024 in my department. While I totally love the Waverunner 6zi at my bench, I'm torn what to think of the WS3000 series. At first look, they GUI looks very much alike and they inherited some nice features like WaveScan or LabNotebook. Besides, they are totally silent - at least compared to the 6zi. Then again, they tend to be sluggish to a point where you think they crashed. E.g. when using the full 10MSa memory with lower sampling frequencies, they seem to update the GUI only every few seconds. If you lower the memory or increase the sampling speed, they react much faster of course. But you need to be aware of this and change the memory depth accordingly. Also drawing a zoom window with your finger reacts much slower than on a "real" Lecroy which I find very annoying. Last but not least they tend to switch to a rolling mode automatically when I would neither expect nor want this with my 6zi. Hate that.

Anyway, they are certainly not as fast and trouble free to just display something quickly as a Keysight DSOX3000 (which we also have). I don't want to be unfair though, as I'm probably spoiled by the by the 6zi and I'd surely take a WS3000 for a food price (like 2k€ for >=350MHz with all options). Actually, I think I'd prefer a WS3000 at home since the bigger Windows based Lecroys are just much too loud to use in a somewhat silent apartment. I think, I'd personally choose a WS3000 over a DSOX3000 since I find the fixed sample rate/memory ratio and the measuring of only the displayed data of the Keysight too limiting. I'm aware though that some of my colleagues hate Lecroys since they can't cope with setting the memory depth and sample rate independently.

BTW: there's the WS3000z now which is supposed to be faster, has more memory and a better screen. Haven't used one yet though, so I can't say if they are really much better. I kinda fear that the faster CPU just compensates a bit for the additional sluggishness caused by the larger memory. I hope I'm wrong though.

tautech · « **Reply #4 on:** November 27, 2018, 08:07:11 pm »

Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on November 27, 2018, 07:54:32 pm

BTW: there's the WS3000z now which is supposed to be faster, has more memory and a better screen. Haven't used one yet though, so I can't say if they are really much better. I kinda fear that the faster CPU just compensates a bit for the additional sluggishness caused by the larger memory. I hope I'm wrong though.

There's a thread somewhere on the updated SDS3kX and the memory was doubled to 20 Mpts/channel and waveform update rate lifted from 250K/s to 1M/s however the display is still 10.1" and 1024 x 600.
Maybe the display was changed from resistive to capacitive.

Chinese site:
http://www.siglent.com/oscilloscope/SDS3000X

0xdeadbeef · « **Reply #5 on:** November 27, 2018, 08:25:38 pm »

At least the WS3000z is said to have a capacitive display with LED backlight. Also the boot time is allegedly halved.

tv84 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 27, 2018, 09:20:58 pm »

I'm looking for the SDS3000, not the SDS3000X.

The one that loads theses FWs:
http://www.siglent.com/prodcut-gjjrj.aspx?id=80&tid=1&T=2

Is that the one you have, deadbeef?

0xdeadbeef · « **Reply #7 on:** November 27, 2018, 10:12:49 pm »

As I said, we have two Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 in the department. I guess they are more or less identical to the Siglent SDS3000 (letting aside color, brand name etc.)
But of course I can't really tell as I only know the Siglent from pictures.

bson · « **Reply #8 on:** November 28, 2018, 06:49:04 pm »

I have and use a WS3054, and think it's great for all kinds of basic circuitry including 74LVC logic. 500MHz is just enough bandwidth to locate issues.

It does get slow with deep records, but I run it mostly at 50k or 100k pts at which point it's not slow. Unless I need a really deep record for some reason. At 100k each point on the trace is derived from a bit over 100 samples, which gives plenty of acquisition for trace gradation, measurements, decoding, etc. At very deep captures it's important to get proficient with the trigger and scan capabilities, but this is a good idea to invest some effort into anyway no matter what scope you use - leave it running looking for things on its own, rather than stare at it hoping to visually catch something unusual. Consider an I2C 64 byte EEPROM write - say you want 10 samples per clock, 10 clocks per byte, plus four overhead bytes (slave read, address, restart write) you need 10*10*68 = 6.8k points. So, yeah, no problems with 100k. Once you use a scope you realize this is plenty for 99% of uses, and in the rare case more is needed, sure it gets slow at 10M but it'll do it. *shrug*

tv84 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 28, 2018, 08:36:57 pm »

Any of you could provide me a memdump of the scope?

bson · « **Reply #10 on:** November 29, 2018, 04:49:41 pm »

I'd be happy to. Just tell me how to create it.

robert_ · « **Reply #11 on:** November 30, 2018, 09:10:57 pm »

Currently evaluating a WS3000z here.
The -z is a major improvement, the UI finally is responsive and fast. Old WS3000 was terribly slow and laggy to the point touch control became useless, now its fine.
Touch zoom on 4x5Mpts is around a second to open the zoom window, navigating afterwards doesnt have significant delay to it. Waveform update is easily fast enough (not measured exactly though), adding measurements doesnt cause much of a change, FFT performance is good too (and not restricted to small record length like Keysight).
The user interface if nice if you are used to other LeCroy devices, if not it might need some time to get used to it (just as i need to get used to a DS1054Z), but then it dows what you want it to do. Didnt really miss any features that i would expect in that price range. Segmented memory and Histroy is there right out of the box, which is nice.
In the few days i got to use it, i could not find any major problems with it. Boots quickly (~30s), around 70W and a big fan makes it really quiet. Interestingly now it says "Assembled in the USA", as far as i know the first one didnt. Maybe some final assembly work was done there as it now looks nicely fitted and the plastics dont smell nor is the metal rusty as it is all too common with siglent.

Might be the best value for a good mid range scope if you need active probe inputs. Around 3.5k€ for 4ch/200Mhz. There isnt much competition in that price segment if you need to connect some current or HV diff probes. R+S RTM3k is quite a bit more expensive, Tek really cant compete anymore, DSOX3000T also is way outdated.
BTW, old option key format too. Cant play around with a demo unit though.

nctnico · « **Reply #12 on:** November 30, 2018, 09:25:38 pm »

I don't get it. Active probes quickly cost more then several $k making the price of the oscilloscope less relevant. OTOH if you use generic probes then there are many other choices and you aren't tied into a specific brand.

robert_ · « **Reply #13 on:** November 30, 2018, 09:34:57 pm »

Depends on the situation. If your boss approves 3.5k€ per scope, thats what you get. You always get the cheapest solution that works, 3.5k scope plus 2.5k probes is less than 6k scope plus 2.5k probes. Also at least here that will mean one set of probes for half the site (and everyone fighting over these).
Generic probes: Theres no such thing as a good generic 50/100Mhz current probe. Those with external power box are terrible to use and the power box costs another 1.5k. HV diff probes, same thing, those 9v-battery powered ones are terribly slow and have really bad CMRR. Plus the HVD3106 are hard to beat in terms of HF CMRR and noise. Dont undesestimate the amount of times you screw up calculating the resulting V/div or A/div when you have to manually do it, and then having to re-do measurements because the documentation is wrong (and photoshopping the screenshots is usually prohibited as it is considered forging results).

Anyway, back to topic.

If you want me to test anything on a WS3000z i can do so on monday.

tv84 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 30, 2018, 10:10:55 pm »

Thankx Robert.

What is the OS of these things? WinCE, linux or other?

tautech · « **Reply #15 on:** November 30, 2018, 10:11:52 pm »

Quote from: robert_ on November 30, 2018, 09:34:57 pm

Anyway, back to topic.

If you want me to test anything on a WS3000z i can do so on monday.

Really you should do that in a separate thread....call it the robert_ WS3000z review thread if you like.

As the WS3000z is a SDS3kX and there's little info about this 'recent' addition to Siglent's and LeCroy's stables some good info on these I'm sure will be welcomed.

tv84 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 30, 2018, 10:25:39 pm »

What does this symbol mean?

because SDS3000X webapge shows this and the LeCroy WS3000 has the FW with this name.

nctnico · « **Reply #17 on:** November 30, 2018, 10:30:40 pm »

MAUI is what Lecroy calls their user interface.

tv84 · « **Reply #18 on:** November 30, 2018, 10:37:12 pm »

Quote from: nctnico on November 30, 2018, 10:30:40 pm

MAUI is what Lecroy calls their user interface.

Then I assume SDS3000X is also a scope developed for LeCroy (in the western markets).

Quote from: tautech on November 30, 2018, 10:11:52 pm

Quote from: robert_ on November 30, 2018, 09:34:57 pm

Anyway, back to topic.

If you want me to test anything on a WS3000z i can do so on monday.
Really you should do that in a separate thread....call it the robert_ WS3000z review thread if you like.

As the WS3000z is a SDS3kX and there's little info about this 'recent' addition to Siglent's and LeCroy's stables some good info on these I'm sure will be welcomed.

tautech,

It can stay here. I renamed the thread title since the scopes are quite identical and there are so few.

nctnico · « **Reply #19 on:** November 30, 2018, 11:16:10 pm »

Quote from: tv84 on November 30, 2018, 10:37:12 pm

Quote from: nctnico on November 30, 2018, 10:30:40 pm
MAUI is what Lecroy calls their user interface.
Then I assume SDS3000X is also a scope developed for LeCroy (in the western markets).

I'd guess Siglent only made the hardware and Lecroy did the firmware themselves given Siglent's poor reputation for getting the firmware working properly.

tautech · « **Reply #20 on:** December 01, 2018, 12:21:49 am »

Quote from: tv84 on November 30, 2018, 10:37:12 pm

Quote from: nctnico on November 30, 2018, 10:30:40 pm
MAUI is what Lecroy calls their user interface.

Then I assume SDS3000X is also a scope developed for LeCroy (in the western markets).

No.
SDS3kX is an upgrade of SDS3k (originally developed in conjunction with LeCroy) and both SDS3k and X are sold in the Asian marketplace where Siglent offers better support and representation. Siglent and LeCroy have a very long standing relationship so while you use the word for, it's not entirely correct. There are many other Siglent rebrands however AFAIK no other share the relationship/partnership Siglent and LeCroy do.

Quote from: tv84 on November 30, 2018, 10:37:12 pm

Quote from: tautech on November 30, 2018, 10:11:52 pm
Quote from: robert_ on November 30, 2018, 09:34:57 pm

Anyway, back to topic.

If you want me to test anything on a WS3000z i can do so on monday.
Really you should do that in a separate thread....call it the robert_ WS3000z review thread if you like.

As the WS3000z is a SDS3kX and there's little info about this 'recent' addition to Siglent's and LeCroy's stables some good info on these I'm sure will be welcomed.

tautech,

It can stay here. I renamed the thread title since the scopes are quite identical and there are so few.

tv84 · « **Reply #21 on:** December 01, 2018, 10:11:06 am »

Quote from: tautech on December 01, 2018, 12:21:49 am

Siglent and LeCroy have a very long standing relationship so while you use the word for, it's not entirely correct.

I meant Siglent does the HW, LeCroy the SW. And sell as Siglent in CHN, and LeCroy in the west. (Sorry for my english...)

nctnico, tautech, thank you both for the clarifications.

BTW, I've googled a bit and found out (easy, when one is not lazy!) that the OS is WinCE, so nothing to do with the usual Siglent FWs.

bson · « **Reply #22 on:** December 01, 2018, 12:55:01 pm »

Quote from: nctnico on November 30, 2018, 09:25:38 pm

I don't get it. Active probes quickly cost more then several $k making the price of the oscilloscope less relevant.

There is glut of LeCroy active probes on the market, and you can find 1GHz 1pF probes for $200 like the AP020 or AP022. I think I paid $400 for the ZS1000 (current model) and $450 for the AP034 differential probe with a 10x tip. The plentiful availability of active probes is a compelling reason to buy these scopes in the first place, and since you need active probes at these bandwidths makes it a whole lot more economical on the whole. Personally I'd worry less about the brand (Siglent makes perfectly good hardware), but more what specific scope you can 1) get a good deal on, and 2) can afford probes and upgrades for (if required).

robert_ · « **Reply #23 on:** December 03, 2018, 03:29:55 pm »

Quote from: tv84 on November 30, 2018, 10:10:55 pm

Thankx Robert.

What is the OS of these things? WinCE, linux or other?

Windows CE. Theres a licence sticker on the back side.
I would not expect anything else, after all it is fairly easy to port windows programs to CE. The MAUI UI and most of whats behind it seems to be almost unchanged compared to the larger windows PC based lecroy scopes.
So, no Siglent firmware on that device, which is GOOD.
I have my fair share with siglent FW quality with some SDG1025s and their interesting behaviour (such as "remember last settings on turn-on" -> boots up with chinese language every time no matter what you set...)

tautech · « **Reply #24 on:** December 03, 2018, 05:32:54 pm »

Quote from: robert_ on December 03, 2018, 03:29:55 pm

I have my fair share with siglent FW quality with some SDG1025s and their interesting behaviour (such as "remember last settings on turn-on" -> boots up with chinese language every time no matter what you set...)

Old, old bug long, long since fixed !

Firmware links:
https://www.siglenteu.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/waveform-generators/#sdg1000-series

tv84 · « **Reply #25 on:** December 08, 2021, 11:33:18 am »

FINALLY!!! After 3 years searching/waiting I was able to find this unicorn and look at some its innerworkings!

I confirmed the suspicions that the LeCroy WS3000 FW packages are AES128-CBC encrypted and the licensing methods used are the same as all other old WinCE LeCroy stuff. However it uses a different Blowfish key from the one that is public.

The analysis is ongoing as I want also to try and correctly parse the Siglent SDS3000 FW packages.

As a useless teaser, here is the "usual" options config file taken from inside.

tv84 · « **Reply #26 on:** December 08, 2021, 04:11:43 pm »

Siglent SDS3000 FW packages use a different AES128-CBC key but the options licenses' Blowfish key is the same as in LeCroy WS3000.

Here is a more complete parsing of the SDS3000X_8.7.0.6.fla FW package:

Code: [Select]

00000000 - Manufacturer: Shglent
00000010 - Name 2: RELSVR  (Release Version)
00000016 - FW Version: 8_7
00000020 - Encrypted Block [00000020-0B86089F]  Size: 0B860880
00000020 - Block Type: 00000101  -  nk.nb0
00000024 - Block Size: 0B860870  SIZE OK
0B8608A0 - Checksum: EAD7413C  CKSUM OK

0B8608A4 - Manufacturer: Shglent
0B8608B4 - Name 2: RELSVR  (Release Version)
0B8608BA - FW Version: 8_7
0B8608C4 - Encrypted Block [0B8608C4-0BA22913]  Size: 001C2050
0B8608C4 - Block Type: 00000104  -  LeCroyLG.bmp
0B8608C8 - Block Size: 001C2040  SIZE OK
0BA22914 - Checksum: 0047D675  CKSUM OK

0BA22918 - Manufacturer: Shglent
0BA22928 - Name 2: RELSVR  (Release Version)
0BA2292E - FW Version: 8_7
0BA22938 - Encrypted Block [0BA22938-0BB8CFC7]  Size: 0016A690
0BA22938 - Block Type: 00000105  -  LcdFpga.bin
0BA2293C - Block Size: 0016A680  SIZE OK
0BB8CFC8 - Checksum: 0166690E  CKSUM OK

0BB8CFCC - Manufacturer: Shglent
0BB8CFDC - Name 2: RELSVR  (Release Version)
0BB8CFE2 - FW Version: 8_7
0BB8CFEC - Encrypted Block [0BB8CFEC-0BBCCFFB]  Size: 00040010
0BB8CFEC - Block Type: 00000103  -  LeCroyEN.up
0BB8CFF0 - Block Size: 00040000  SIZE OK
0BBCCFFC - Checksum: 00AD74D7  CKSUM OK

0BBCD000 - Manufacturer: Shglent
0BBCD010 - Name 2: RELSVR  (Release Version)
0BBCD016 - FW Version: 8_7
0BBCD020 - Encrypted Block [0BBCD020-0BBD146F]  Size: 00004450
0BBCD020 - Block Type: 00000106  -  ???
0BBCD024 - Block Size: 00004440  SIZE OK
0BBD1470 - Checksum: 001A4498  CKSUM OK

0BBD1474 - Manufacturer: Shglent
0BBD1484 - Name 2: RELSVR  (Release Version)
0BBD148A - FW Version: 8_7
0BBD1494 - Encrypted Block [0BBD1494-0BCA47E3]  Size: 000D3350
0BBD1494 - Block Type: 00000107  -  Registry ??? (generated by RegSnifferCE)
0BBD1498 - Block Size: 000D3340  SIZE OK
0BCA47E4 - Checksum: 03D9A8E5  CKSUM OK

0BCA47E8 - Manufacturer: Shglent
0BCA47F8 - Name 2: RELSVR  (Release Version)
0BCA47FE - FW Version: 8_7
0BCA4808 - Encrypted Block [0BCA4808-0BCA4997]  Size: 00000190
0BCA4808 - Block Type: 00000108  -  Registry (XStream Version)
0BCA480C - Block Size: 00000180  SIZE OK
0BCA4998 - Checksum: 000076EE  CKSUM OK

0BCA499C - Manufacturer: Shglent
0BCA49AC - Name 2: RELSVR  (Release Version)
0BCA49B2 - FW Version: 8_7
0BCA49BC - Encrypted Block [0BCA49BC-0BCA6A2B]  Size: 00002070
0BCA49BC - Block Type: 00000109  -  Registry ???
0BCA49C0 - Block Size: 00002060  SIZE OK
0BCA6A2C - Checksum: 000985B9  CKSUM OK

tv84 · « **Reply #27 on:** February 15, 2022, 09:13:20 pm »

Due to some family requests, here is the decrypted contents of X-Stream Options Low.cfg.

All configuration sections are visible.

Azusa · « **Reply #28 on:** January 18, 2023, 09:05:03 pm »

What's the blowfish key for this model is?


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Author Topic: Siglent SDS3000(X) / LeCroy WS3000(Z) - Anyone has one? (Read 6333 times)

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