Siglent SDS7000A 3, 4 and 6 GHz 12 bit DSO's

[tautech]

Released 15 Nov 2023
6 GHz model introduced 12 Nov 24

3, 4 or 6 GHz BW
12-bit models.
Low noise floor: ~220 μVrms at 4 GHz bandwidth
15.6" touch display with mouse.
20 GSa/s max sampling rate.
500 Mpts/ch
32 Mpts FFT
CPU Intel Core i3-8100 or better
RAM 32 GB DDR4
Hard Disk 250 GB SSD or better
OS Linux




Supports measurement of USB2.0, SATA1, DDR1/2/3 and other signals
1Gpts Memory Depth Upgrade Option
OCXO option
50 MHz FG option
16ch MSO option
Optional decodes
Eye Diagram and Jitter Analysis Option
Power Analysis Option

Front panel
2x USB 3.0 Host,
Probe calibration signal: 1 kHz, 3 V square wave

Side panel
4x USB Host 3.1 Gen 1, 2x 1000M LAN (support VXI-11+SCPI, Telnet (port 5024)+SCPI, socket (port 5025) + SCPI programming, LXI, WebServer)
1x DVI-D: up to 1920x1200 @ 60Hz, 1x DP 1.2: up to 4096x2304 @ 60Hz, 1x HDMI 1.4: up to
4096x2160 @ 60Hz
Mic input, Audio Output

Rear panel
USB 2.0 Device (support USBTMC)
External trigger input, EXT: ≤1.5 Vrms, EXT/5: ≤ 7.5Vrms
Auxiliary output: including TRIG OUT (3.3 V LVCMOS), PASS/FAIL OUT (3.3 V TTL)
Others: 10 MHz In, 10 MHz Out
https://int.siglent.com/products-overview/sds7000a/
https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds7000a-digital-storage-oscilloscope/
https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds7000a-digital-storage-oscilloscope/

Will also support a new series of Siglent 5 GHz active probes:
SAP5000D series of active differential probes, which have a bandwidth of 5GHz, a rise time of 80ps, a differential input capacitance of 350fF, and an attenuation ratio of 10:1.



https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/24_11_12/SDS7000A_Datasheet_EN02A.pdf

POI list
SDS7000A discussion:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/help-on-finding-an-oscilloscope-that-can-display-zoomed-traces-when-rolling/msg5824169/#msg5824169

[rf-loop]

As I was writing this same, I noticed that you had already done it. Of course -- you have a time zone advantage due to your location.     

[Martin72]

Oh, finally a scope everyone can afford...
Looks good.
Screensize: Waverunner 9000 got 15.6" too and it´s soo huge...
My favorite size is 12.1".
Prices...Hmm.
2Ghz 6000A will costs appx 11900€ incl. VAT, the 7000A won´t be cheaper.
So it will be a nice to know that siglent could also offer pro-scopes.

[tv84]

So, NeZha finally arrived?

[kripton2035]

time for a new, more restricted, owner club ?

[tv84]

2Ghz 6000A will costs appx 11900€ incl. VAT, the 7000A won´t be cheaper.
So it will be a nice to know that siglent could also offer pro-scopes.

Martin,

Stay away from the light!

[Martin72]

 

Don't worry my friend, if a few more features come along for my current scope, I don't see a single reason to switch.
Besides, if I seriously wanted to spend more than XYZ on a meter, others would have the men with the white jacket come for me.

[tv84]

, others would have the men with the white jacket come for me.

Thank God others exist! 

[Kenneth Rosenstroem]

Some pictures here: http://www.utestek.com/product/1302.html

[baldurn]

Some pictures here: http://www.utestek.com/product/1302.html

They even made it Rigol colored! Sadly they will match the price of Rigol DS70504 20 GSa/s oscilloscope too (30k €).

[tautech]

Some pictures here: http://www.utestek.com/product/1302.html

They even made it Rigol colored!

That got me immediately ! Why Siglent would follow HPAK, LeCroy and Rigol with a dark color scheme IDK. 

Sadly they will match the price of Rigol DS70504 20 GSa/s oscilloscope too (30k €).

In case you hadn't noticed a few Siglent products when fully optioned are already nudging 30k in whatever currency.
Put the new Siglent analyser and matching RF gen together and it's pushing 40k but still a good bit cheaper than one from HPAK.

[danils]

I have a consideration, please don't misunderstand me.
I currently own the SDS2104X HD I fell in love with (I sold my Keysight for this), I have a Siglent multimeter on my office bench, I have a Siglent power supply and I am ordering a Siglent function generator. So I am a fan and I consider them wonderful equipment for my daily duties that is testing LED power supplies.

But...

When it comes to top professionals or critical application, especially in the price tag I think this new Siglent scope will fall, I think we are forced to follow the trend and display a Keysight or Tek or Lecroy badge on the attached print screens. Like when I worked on audio I had to have an Audio Precision badge on my print screens despite there are great audio analysers from other brands too, that sometimes are even better than AP in my experience (R&S, Spectral Measurements (formerly Prism Audio), etc.).

Now I think that some companies, large ones, think about Tesla testing their motor inverters or Honeywell testing avionics and so on, probably need to show a "top brand" badge on their papers.

Not random that on my Siglent equipment calibration sheets the devices used for calibration are Agilent etc. lol.

So I think it's quite risky for Siglent aiming at a top end niche were players that basically invented the oscilloscope dominate already. Let's suppose that a "big brand" oscope with the same specs costs twice the Siglent, I think big companies with large budget still have a "marketing" need to choose the big brands.

Yet this new Siglent scope is surely out of budget for small companies and hobbyists.

edit: maybe it can be a great resource for embargoed countries, USA cannot sell technology to 

[Martin72]

Hi,
I know exactly what you mean.
But in my eyes, this is the logical next step for Siglent.
Whether they will join the elite circle depends on several parameters.
Quality, technical maturity, stable software and features that the professional competition does not offer at this price.
And even all that is of no use if you can't convince customers to switch.
In addition to the above-mentioned things, service is an absolute must.
In the meantime, we also have Siglent scopes at work, calibrated externally and in use for customer acceptance tests.
Otherwise, we have had LeCroy and Tektronix over the decades.
But we've been surprised at how well the Siglents have done, and we won't be the only ones.
AND:
Unlike the other big brands, siglent still has the low cost division that benefits from the lessons learned in developing the big scopes not affordable to amateurs.
Currently you can see it very well in the SDS2000X+ model.
If the larger series experience an update, it will also get that, provided that the hardware makes it.

[BillyO]

That got me immediately ! Whey Siglent would follow HPAK, LeCroy and Rigol with a dark color scheme IDK. 

No, no, no .. they made it Hantek colored!

[BillyO]

Yet this new Siglent scope is surely out of budget for small companies and hobbyists.

There are some well healed hobbyists around here that flaunt $30K scopes that do not remotely meet the specs quoted above.  They might be a market.  A small one, but a market.  It may also appeal to companies that do not have to prove or divulge who makes their test equipment but want decent specs for a reasonable price.  We'll have to see what that price is to beging with, but in the end you may be right.  At least until Siglent make some decent on-roads into industry.  That begs the question, is there room for another top tier brand at the table?

[Martin72]

12-bit/10-bit models. As yet unknown if these will be available to the west.

It would be it´s death here before it´s born, no joke.
In this (expected) pricerange every scope is 12 bit or higher.

[baldurn]

When it comes to top professionals or critical application, especially in the price tag I think this new Siglent scope will fall, I think we are forced to follow the trend and display a Keysight or Tek or Lecroy badge on the attached print screens. Like when I worked on audio I had to have an Audio Precision badge on my print screens despite there are great audio analysers from other brands too, that sometimes are even better than AP in my experience (R&S, Spectral Measurements (formerly Prism Audio), etc.).

It may clearly be out of range in the typical HAM hobby budget but it fits well for startups and internal use within companies where cost still matters. I have experience founding a startup and let me tell you, the savings on that one instrument could easily be several years of rent for the office space or half a year of salary for the employee that is going to use it.

All depending on that they are actually going to price it significantly cheaper (half price) of the competing big name brands. If they would try to be just a little cheaper, it might even be more expensive to lease due to worse resale value.

[tautech]

That begs the question, is there room for another top tier brand at the table?

Why wouldn't there be, just why ?

Each brand has something the other doesn't offer and that's how it's always been and the only time that becomes a problem is when the money people chose equipment for the techs. 

Take a moment to properly consider the changes in this industry in the last 5 years let alone the last 10.
Have the top brands really indicated to any of us they are up for the challenge from the east or have they sat on their chuffs and watch their grass get mown.

[BillyO]

Why wouldn't there be, just why ?

Oh Rob, you know as well as I do.  You read the posts here.  Some one asks for a good meter under $100 and within 10 posts there is someone suggesting they buy a Fluke 87V.

Back when I first started out the answer was a Simpson 260 (which BTW is still made and about the same price as s Fluke 87V).

You know I'm a dyed in the wool Siglent fan (even being a genuine greybeard) but I realize the nonsense that goes on, the same nonsense that makes people pay $199/ft. for magic speaker cable.

People are stuck in self defeating ruts.  "Muh daddy sayus buy a Tek Tutron'hicks so my's gona buy's a Tek.   

Okay, that might have gone a tad far, but you get the picture.  Tek make good stuff (at least they used to .. ignoring the "3 series") for certain applications .. the same for HPAK and R&S, but it seems they have lost the connection to the grass roots.

Some idiots still buy Harley Davison bikes, even though they are (endlessly) proven to be utter shite.

We live in a world where there are 2 (count then) flat earth societies.   

[JPortici]

This is truly one scope for the masses 
Ok it is a PC with an acquisition card instead of being all integrated with an application processor. What does it bring to the table?
UI slowing down a little less when multiple functions are activated?
will it be able to run other applications alongside the main scope context?
I thought other models (since the SDS5000X) all ran linux, was i wrong?
which lecroy is going to be here in the west?

[tautech]

I thought other models (since the SDS5000X) all ran linux, was i wrong?

No you were not wrong.

Consider it a plain statement from Siglent this PC based DSO does NOT run Windoze.
Make of that what you will as YMMV.

[gslick]

Waiting for someone here to "buy" an SDS7404A H12 from Amazon and spend two weeks testing every feature, and writing full reviews, and posting YouTube videos, before returning it two weeks later

[tautech]

Not random that on my Siglent equipment calibration sheets the devices used for calibration are Agilent etc. lol.

Highly intended of course to give some validity to the accuracy/quality of calibration.
Actually that's a good thread topic, what brands of equipment are used for Siglent equipment factory calibration ?

So I think it's quite risky for Siglent aiming at a top end niche were players that basically invented the oscilloscope dominate already.

 
Do you imply the A brands have market dominance from inventing oscilloscopes ?
Let me give you a little history lesson:
Karl Ferdinand Braun invented the CRT oscilloscope as a physics curiosity in 1897....... and electromechanical plotting devices were around a few years earlier:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_oscilloscope

Let's suppose that a "big brand" oscope with the same specs costs twice the Siglent, I think big companies with large budget still have a "marketing" need to choose the big brands.

They do but are slowly seeing the light. 

Yet this new Siglent scope is surely out of budget for small companies and hobbyists.

What industry and marketing experience has you offer such a statement ?
Hobbyists certainly but there are some very clever small companies doing leading edge stuff the world over and they get to a point when they need high performance equipment at competitive pricing.

edit: maybe it can be a great resource for embargoed countries, USA cannot sell technology to 

Well of course, Siglent is already a worldwide brand and also not always badged as Siglent so even examining the Siglent website maps and 'How to Buy'/Authorized Partners lists doesn't reveal actual marketplace penetration.

[rf-loop]

I have a consideration, please don't misunderstand me.
I currently own the SDS2104X HD I fell in love with (I sold my Keysight for this), I have a Siglent multimeter on my office bench, I have a Siglent power supply and I am ordering a Siglent function generator. So I am a fan and I consider them wonderful equipment for my daily duties that is testing LED power supplies.

But...

Now I think that some companies, large ones, think about Tesla testing their motor inverters or Honeywell testing avionics and so on, probably need to show a "top brand" badge on their papers.

In many cases true but - world is changing.
 

Currently, some users of Siglent devices include, for example (bit old list) including also your named Tesla :
(and of course lots of smaller companies)

Nokia, Cisco, Ericsson, Samsung, LG, ZTE, Broadcom, Hytera, FiberHome.

Tesla, BMW, Toyota, Siemens, BYD, Yaskawa, Desay SV automotive, Mitsubishi Electric, L.B.N.

TexasInstruments, Intel, Linear, Broadcom, Microchip, Realtek, GE Imagination atwork, NXP, Allwinner, ETS-Lindgren

Microsoft, Google, Toyota, Apple, Sharp, Haier, Microchip, Dji, Skyworth, Asus.

Harward University, Princeton University, University of Cambridge, Stanfor University, Massachusets Institute of Technology,
Tsinghua University, Peking University, Zhejiang University, University of Science  and Technology of China, Fudan University

[markone]

I have a consideration, please don't misunderstand me.
I currently own the SDS2104X HD I fell in love with (I sold my Keysight for this), I have a Siglent multimeter on my office bench, I have a Siglent power supply and I am ordering a Siglent function generator. So I am a fan and I consider them wonderful equipment for my daily duties that is testing LED power supplies.

But...

Now I think that some companies, large ones, think about Tesla testing their motor inverters or Honeywell testing avionics and so on, probably need to show a "top brand" badge on their papers.

In many cases true but - world is changing.
 

Currently, some users of Siglent devices include, for example (bit old list) including also your named Tesla :
(and of course lots of smaller companies)

Nokia, Cisco, Ericsson, Samsung, LG, ZTE, Broadcom, Hytera, FiberHome.

Tesla, BMW, Toyota, Siemens, BYD, Yaskawa, Desay SV automotive, Mitsubishi Electric, L.B.N.

TexasInstruments, Intel, Linear, Broadcom, Microchip, Realtek, GE Imagination atwork, NXP, Allwinner, ETS-Lindgren

Microsoft, Google, Toyota, Apple, Sharp, Haier, Microchip, Dji, Skyworth, Asus.

Harward University, Princeton University, University of Cambridge, Stanfor University, Massachusets Institute of Technology,
Tsinghua University, Peking University, Zhejiang University, University of Science  and Technology of China, Fudan University

But certainly not as an exclusive supplier, especially now that the U.S. is further restricting shipments to China of strategic electronic devices and this is not helping chinese brands to gain trust in high-tech companies in the west world.

[gnuarm]

Oh, finally a scope everyone can afford...
Looks good.
Screensize: Waverunner 9000 got 15.6" too and it´s soo huge...
My favorite size is 12.1".

I'm holding out for 17 inches!  Heck, that's not even so common in laptops anymore. 

Prices...Hmm.
2Ghz 6000A will costs appx 11900€ incl. VAT, the 7000A won´t be cheaper.
So it will be a nice to know that siglent could also offer pro-scopes.

Wow!  Far above my needs.  What the world needs is a good 5¢ cigar... I mean, a good $500 attached oscilloscope.  I'd much rather have a small unit I can put in my computer bag than a box that needs it's own bag on the airplane. 

[gnuarm]

Some pictures here: http://www.utestek.com/product/1302.html

I can't quite make out that connector that looks like a DB9 or an HD15.  I don't think it's three rows, so a serial port???  Why would there be a serial port?  I guess that's a COTS motherboard, eh?  So you get some dross with the bits you want.

[markone]

Some pictures here: http://www.utestek.com/product/1302.html

I can't quite make out that connector that looks like a DB9 or an HD15.  I don't think it's three rows, so a serial port???  Why would there be a serial port?  I guess that's a COTS motherboard, eh?  So you get some dross with the bits you want.

It's a COM port, motherboard should be an old 1151 chinese market commercial mini-itx board, given the price category of the instrument it would have been better to adopt a more recent platform with a more powerful processor.

[tautech]

Oh, finally a scope everyone can afford...
Looks good.
Screensize: Waverunner 9000 got 15.6" too and it´s soo huge...
My favorite size is 12.1".

I'm holding out for 17 inches!  Heck, that's not even so common in laptops anymore. 

Why stop at 17 ? 
With:
1x DVI-D: up to 1920x1200 @ 60Hz, 1x DP 1.2: up to 4096x2304 @ 60Hz, 1x HDMI 1.4: up to 4096x2160 @ 60Hz
you could go to three 60" or larger, maybe stand them all on end and let the video driver treat them as a single display......wonderful for conferences and seminars. 

[BillyO]

...wonderful for conferences and seminars. 

Or Mr. Magoo.

[gnuarm]

Oh, finally a scope everyone can afford...
Looks good.
Screensize: Waverunner 9000 got 15.6" too and it´s soo huge...
My favorite size is 12.1".

I'm holding out for 17 inches!  Heck, that's not even so common in laptops anymore. 

Why stop at 17 ? 
With:
1x DVI-D: up to 1920x1200 @ 60Hz, 1x DP 1.2: up to 4096x2304 @ 60Hz, 1x HDMI 1.4: up to 4096x2160 @ 60Hz
you could go to three 60" or larger, maybe stand them all on end and let the video driver treat them as a single display......wonderful for conferences and seminars. 

I'd much rather have a small unit I can put in my computer bag than a box that needs it's own bag on the airplane. 

Oddly enough, some computer makers have 15.3 inch screens and 16 inch screens, but are dropping the 17 inch screens.  I can't see the use case for adding 0.7 inches to a computer screen. 

I need a new machine.  My current one is not much over a year old, but it craps out and simply loses all power periodically.  If I play with it a while, I can get it back up, but it's very reminiscent of running Windows 95, and it's kicking my PTSD into overdrive.

I want a decent keyboard that still has functional arrow keys and the numeric keypad.  The only 17 inch laptop Lenovo sells has a touch pad like a cell phone instead of a number pad.  WTF???

[Domitronic]

Screenshots of the chinese datasheet translated by deepL:

[Domitronic]

Screenshots of the chinese datasheet translated by deepL:

[Domitronic]

Screenshots of the chinese datasheet translated by deepL:

[Domitronic]

Screenshots of the chinese datasheet translated by deepL:

[robert.rozee]

what if Siglent launched the base model at a hobbyist-friendly $3000 price point, with said hobbyist still able to turn on all the options using a publicly available bit of python code? this may be sufficient to significantly disrupt the whole top end of the market. bear in mind that the actual parts cost per unit (ignoring R&D) may not be very high.

perhaps it is intended to be Hantek black... a 'salute' to the top end of the market. will be interesting to see.


cheers,
rob   :-)

[Martin72]

I'm holding out for 17 inches!  Heck, that's not even so common in laptops anymore. 

To get an idea how big 15.4" is in real, I´ve placed three scopes with different screen sizes in a row.



You don't really want to have 17"...

[tautech]

You don't really want to have 17"...

Oh yes I do (thumps fist on table) and will need much much larger when the SDS6000L arrives soon. 

[gnuarm]

I'm holding out for 17 inches!  Heck, that's not even so common in laptops anymore. 

To get an idea how big 15.4" is in real, I´ve placed three scopes with different screen sizes in a row.



You don't really want to have 17"...

That was tongue in cheek.   I want an attached oscilloscope to use with my 17 inch laptop. 

[tautech]

I want an attached oscilloscope to use with my 17 inch laptop.

4, 8 or up to 512 channels ?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds6000l-2ghz-12bit-8-ch-(china-only)/

[gnuarm]

I want an attached oscilloscope to use with my 17 inch laptop.

4, 8 or up to 512 channels ?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds6000l-2ghz-12bit-8-ch-(china-only)/

4 channels with 16 synchronized digital would be very nice.  But I'm not moving to China to buy it.

[tautech]

I want an attached oscilloscope to use with my 17 inch laptop.

4, 8 or up to 512 channels ?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds6000l-2ghz-12bit-8-ch-(china-only)/

4 channels with 16 synchronized digital would be very nice.  But I'm not moving to China to buy it.

You won't need to, predicted release to western markets was Q4 22 but that might run to CNY in a couple weeks, IDK.
They should be released soon and I saw one in his private lab while video chatting to the NA sales manager a few days ago.

[Martin72]

8 bit for the west, again ?

[tautech]

8 bit for the west, again ?

Good question !
Sorry didn't ask. 

[Martin72]

Hopefully not 8 bit only.
If Lecroy should be the reason, the two should talk again.

[spoiler]To be honest, I played "back then" with the thoughts to buy the 6000 (No kidding, the HD I could buy ad hoc, for the 6000 I would have waited a bit and saved).
But spending so much money and then still having 8bit, that was an absolute showstopper and I didn't want to switch to another brand.[/spoiler]

[tautech]

Hopefully not 8 bit only.
If Lecroy should be the reason, the two should talk again.

[spoiler]To be honest, I played "back then" with the thoughts to buy the 6000 (No kidding, the HD I could buy ad hoc, for the 6000 I would have waited a bit and saved).
But spending so much money and then still having 8bit, that was an absolute showstopper and I didn't want to switch to another brand.[/spoiler]

Why, in its price point SDS6000A is hard to beat, 12", 5 GSa/s on each channel, 500 Mpts mem depth and memory management tools like in your HD.
That's why it can honestly state it's a 2 GHz DSO with all channels active.

Bits vs BW is always going to be a choice which depends on needs.
Is the 6kA HW between east and west models really different or is it just done SW ? 

[Martin72]

The first thing my colleagues do is to reduce the memory depth....
It slows the system down - Nothing for unpatient users..

Is the 6kA HW between east and west models really different or is it just done SW ? 

Have we ever seen a teardown...AFAIK not.

[jjoonathan]

> If Lecroy should be the reason, the two should talk again.

I thought Siglent was using LeCroy's 12 bit ADC in all these 12 bit scopes. If so, they cannot simply "talk again," because the whole point of the agreement from LeCroy's perspective was to monetize downmarket without hurting upmarket sales. Letting Siglent use LeCroy ADCs to compete in the West with LeCroy would be tantamount to LeCroy punching themselves in the face.

[luudee]

Dear Friends,

what is your take on the SDS7000A  vs  R&S MXO4 (  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-picture-on-eevblog-of-the-new-rs-mxo4-series-oscilloscope-)/  )   ?

I am very excited to see the SDS7000, assuming it will have a faster UI, since it is using a I3.

Please share your opinion and EWAGs !


Thank you all !
luudee

[2N3055]

Dear Friends,

what is your take on the SDS7000A  vs  R&S MXO4 (  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-picture-on-eevblog-of-the-new-rs-mxo4-series-oscilloscope-)/  )   ?

I am very excited to see the SDS7000, assuming it will have a faster UI, since it is using a I3.

Please share your opinion and EWAGs !


Thank you all !
luudee

New Siglent will be 4 GHz design with 20GS/s sampling by the look of it.. So vastly different class than MXO4..
As for other features, it is not yet released so we don't know yet...

[Martin72]

I am very excited to see the SDS7000, assuming it will have a faster UI, since it is using a I3.

And with 4 cores and 3.6Ghz not the badest one.
Before we bought the waverunner and the HDO6034A (both with i5 cpu), we got a hdo4000 (intel i3) on loan for two weeks.
The scopes based on a pc platform are simply in a different league in terms of overall performance.
I work with the HDO6034A almost every day and everything is so smooth, so fast, it has 8(!) math channels, until now I had 4 of them running at the same time and nothing has changed in speed, just great.
Last weekend at home on my HD I had 2(.... ) math channels active at the same time (both with FFT) and a few readings in the display.
Well...
You get what you paid for, even if it wasn't exactly little.
(Not to mention the unspeakable slowdown of the entire system when the Bode Plot is active).
But such comparisons bring you back down to earth when you think spending more money isn't necessary.

[JPortici]

The first thing my colleagues do is to reduce the memory depth....
It slows the system down - Nothing for unpatient users..

It also allows for more history waveforms i do it for both reasons. scope set at 12.5MPts, unless i need the samplerate at lower timebases

[tautech]

The first thing my colleagues do is to reduce the memory depth....
It slows the system down - Nothing for unpatient users..

It also allows for more history waveforms i do it for both reasons. scope set at 12.5MPts, unless i need the samplerate at lower timebases

SDS5000X right Jack ?
Have you not installed recent firmware that allows setting of a fixed sample rate ?

[JPortici]

The first thing my colleagues do is to reduce the memory depth....
It slows the system down - Nothing for unpatient users..

It also allows for more history waveforms i do it for both reasons. scope set at 12.5MPts, unless i need the samplerate at lower timebases

SDS5000X right Jack ?
Have you not installed recent firmware that allows setting of a fixed sample rate ?

Yes. I did, but i don't care for the function. I've always been content in how the scope operated out of the box and i'm used to it. I tried the other memory management modes but failed to find a scenario in which either would be an advantage over the Max Memory we all know and love (or a big enough advantage that i bother going through the menu to find the optimal setting from time to time)

[Performa01]

The first thing my colleagues do is to reduce the memory depth....
It slows the system down - Nothing for unpatient users..

It also allows for more history waveforms i do it for both reasons. scope set at 12.5MPts, unless i need the samplerate at lower timebases

SDS5000X right Jack ?
Have you not installed recent firmware that allows setting of a fixed sample rate ?

Yes. I did, but i don't care for the function. I've always been content in how the scope operated out of the box and i'm used to it. I tried the other memory management modes but failed to find a scenario in which either would be an advantage over the Max Memory we all know and love (or a big enough advantage that i bother going through the menu to find the optimal setting from time to time)

Your initial statement was very clear. You stick to 12.5 Mpts memory except when you really need longer captures = slow timebase settings where the samplerate drops below your requirement for the acquisition bandwidth. So what you want is sufficient samplerate rather than constant samplerate - the latter is only useful in some very special cases, e.g. where the scope bandwidth depends on the samplerate in a less familiar way, such as in ERES mode.

That's what generally is considered best practice, as 10-14 Mpts is some magic region for all scopes based on that current Zync platform...

[JPortici]

The first thing my colleagues do is to reduce the memory depth....
It slows the system down - Nothing for unpatient users..

It also allows for more history waveforms i do it for both reasons. scope set at 12.5MPts, unless i need the samplerate at lower timebases

SDS5000X right Jack ?
Have you not installed recent firmware that allows setting of a fixed sample rate ?

Yes. I did, but i don't care for the function. I've always been content in how the scope operated out of the box and i'm used to it. I tried the other memory management modes but failed to find a scenario in which either would be an advantage over the Max Memory we all know and love (or a big enough advantage that i bother going through the menu to find the optimal setting from time to time)

Your initial statement was very clear. You stick to 12.5 Mpts memory except when you really need longer captures = slow timebase settings where the samplerate drops below your requirement for the acquisition bandwidth. So what you want is sufficient samplerate rather than constant samplerate - the latter is only useful in some very special cases, e.g. where the scope bandwidth depends on the samplerate in a less familiar way, such as in ERES mode.

That's what generally is considered best practice, as 10-14 Mpts is some magic region for all scopes based on that current Zync platform...

the ERES hint gave me an idea, i'm still waiting for digital filters on the math (or on the input) channels, probably i can combine fixed sampling with ERES so i can achieve a low pass filter i can control
Did not know of this magic region but yes, 12.5Mpts proved to be a good compromize between enough samples (helps with SENT/CAN decoders at the standard frequencies) and UI Speed

[Martin72]

i'm still waiting for digital filters on the math (or on the input) channels

You got a 5000X, right ?

[tv84]

Yes.

[Martin72]

Argh, good morning...

OK, so I guess filters will come with one of the next firmware updates(memory management as a kind of prerequisite has it already).

[Martin72]

Yes. I did, but i don't care for the function. I've always been content in how the scope operated out of the box and i'm used to it. I tried the other memory management modes but failed to find a scenario in which either would be an advantage over the Max Memory we all know and love (or a big enough advantage that i bother going through the menu to find the optimal setting from time to time)

Me too.
"Growing up" with Lecroy scopes (93XX, waverunner LT, wavesurfer, waverunner 9000, HDO) I had never missed anything in that direction.
So the discussion about the memory was new to me when I entered the forum here.
Should I use the new filter function(on my 2000HD), this could change, but even then I don't need to worry, because the scope takes care of that for me - Even if it first asks whether it should change...
(With my two private Rigol Scopes Auto-Memory was the default setting, that will have its reasons).

[rf-loop]

Inside SDS7000A

Think about it.... 
On December 28, 2022, Siglent released two new products: SDS7000A digital oscilloscope and SFA8001 front-end amplifier chip.

SDS7000A is the first 4GHz bandwidth, 12-bit high-resolution digital oscilloscope in China, which raises the domestic high-resolution oscilloscope to a new height and fills the domestic gap in related fields! SFA8001 is the first self-developed oscilloscope front-end amplifier chip with a bandwidth of 8GHz released in China! The chip laid a solid foundation for the research and development of Siglent's 8GHz and subsequent higher bandwidth oscilloscopes.
It is expected that in the near future, a new generation of Siglent digital oscilloscope equipped with self-developed chips will meet with you. At the same time, the development of SFA8001 has also accumulated experience in the development of 16GHz bandwidth amplifier chips.



Siglent's first self-developed chip SFA8001
Amplifier chip: the core of the analog front-end circuit The three core chips inside the digital oscilloscope are: the front-end amplifier chip,
the ADC chip and the digital signal processing chip. Each of these three chips has its own role and has a direct impact on the performance of the oscilloscope.



As the first self-developed oscilloscope front-end amplifier dedicated chip of Siglent, SFA8001 has a high bandwidth of 8GHz and a low noise density of 1.9nV/√Hz, which can help oscilloscopes observe faster and smaller signals.



Self-developed chips: the only way to develop localization
Siglent's chip self-research road is rooted in product design needs, rather than the "muscle show" of corporate strength.
High-bandwidth front-end amplifier chips are difficult to directly implement through board-level circuits, and chipization is an inevitable trend. As one of the three core chips of oscilloscopes, the front-end amplifier chip is different from the ADC chip and the digital signal processing chip, and its application area is narrow and the design requirements are high, so it is difficult to purchase directly in the market.
Not only that, as a dedicated chip, the front-end amplifier chip often needs to be optimized according to the actual oscilloscope design when designing the circuit to better meet the product performance. Therefore, in the field of high-end oscilloscopes, analog front-end chips often exist in the form of self-developed by each oscilloscope manufacturer.



After that the next step is 16GHz...and so on...

The Emperor is far and the sky is high...run your own paths in freedom and fly higher...

Siglent, stock code: 688112.SH, Shanghai Stock Exchange (SSE).

[luudee]

Any pricing info yet ?


luudee

[Martin72]

Hi Rob,

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-hdo1000-and-hdo4000-12bit-oscilloscopes-launched-in-china/msg4708985/#msg4708985

To stop offtopic there...

In my opinion, the gap between the 2000X HD and the 7000A is too wide in terms of offering 12bit scopes for the western market.
I strongly expect the 7000A to cost at least 10000, it is a different league where it will play together with the 12 bit scopes from lecroy and Tek.
There is nothing in between the two extremes.
The 2000X HD is very good, I need to know that for various reasons.
But if you want a bigger screen, for example, or more math channels, as well as increased general performance, but don't want to drop back to 8 bit, you won't find it at Siglent.
I don't know if it's smart to leave the field to other brands in the western market.

[Martin72]

Listed on the chinese website:

https://www.siglent.com/products-overview/sds7000a/

100,000,000 Wfm/s ??   

[egonotto]

Listed on the chinese website:

https://www.siglent.com/products-overview/sds7000a/

100,000,000 Wfm/s ??   

Hello,

and "Low noise floor: only 4 μVrms at 220 GHz bandwidth"

I think they mean 220 μVrms at 4 GHz


Best regards
egonotto

[Martin72]

 

You´re right, it must be a failure in the description.
But apart from that, nice scope..
And only siglent knows why they´re offering two vertical resolution models.

[egonotto]

You´re right, it must be a failure in the description.
But apart from that, nice scope..
And only siglent knows why they´re offering two vertical resolution models.

Hello,
yes very nice scope and I think they mean 220 μVrms at 4 GHz.
 
Cleverscope CS328A even had three different resolutions on offer:

"CS328A   4M Samples, 10 bit sampler, 8 digital inputs, USB I/O
  The CS328 can be upgraded to 8M memory and 12 or 14 bit dual channel sampler, plus signal generator."

Red Pitaya was also once available with 10 or 14 bit

Best regards
egonotto

[tautech]

Listed on the chinese website:

https://www.siglent.com/products-overview/sds7000a/

100,000,000 Wfm/s ??   

Me thinks you need use a different translator:
main features
Bandwidth: 4GHz, 3GHz, 2GHz
Memory depth: up to 1Gpts/channel
Vertical resolution: 12-bit /10-bit
Real-time sampling rate: up to 20 GSa/s
Waveform capture rate: up to 1 million frames per second
Low noise floor: as low as 220 μVrms at 4 GHz bandwidth

[rf-loop]

And only siglent knows why they´re offering two vertical resolution models.

I know there is peoples who do not think money because from wall you can get more but there is still peoples and companies who may think also money...

But still we can see one single bit more do not double price but it doubles resolution.
And even more, here we get 2 bits more and we get quadruple resolution with same frequency bandwidth and samplerate.

It is totally different case if we reduce  samplerate (and BW) when we rise resolution. This is why.
Not because they just want to be uncomfortable.

Of course, everyone also understands how the market works, as well as why pay more if you don't need more.

12 bit, SDS6204 H12 Pro   2 GHz,  ¥229,880  Normal model
10 bit, SDS6204 H10 Pro   2 GHz,  ¥139,880  Economy model

The same realities are affecting the model SDS7kA as well.
and this 100 xxxx/s  need translates as 100*10000 and all who understand chinese numbering system and these "words" know it. But some translators perhaps not. When chinese say something what heards somehow as "millon" it is 10k (10000) and many times example prices are told in "millons" example in house markets. It is 10k not 1M.

[Martin72]

Me thinks you need use a different translator:

Microsoft Edge translating...

[tautech]

Me thinks you need use a different translator:

Microsoft Edge translating...

I find this very useful to decypher info from newly discovered products:
https://translate.google.com/

You can Copy/Paste can't you ? 

[Sighound36]

I'd be up for trying the 4ghz 12 bit models, have some budget left over after the recent home lab 4Ghz Wavepro HD that would be the model to go head to head with.

[Martin72]

12 bit, SDS6204 H12 Pro   2 GHz,  ¥229,880  Normal model(appx 32183€
10 bit, SDS6204 H10 Pro   2 GHz,  ¥139,880  Economy model(appx 19443€

The prices...Then I don´t want to know the ones for the 7000..
And then there is the 8 bit model here fore really less money than the 10 bit "Economy model" (appx 9980€ for the 2Ghz) 
It's hard to believe that all three ADCs are pin-compatible with each other, so they would have to have different layouts.
Apart from this, for 19000€ or 32000€ I could get a state of the art scope from lecroy

[TomKatt]

Stupid question from a 200 Mhz hobbyist...  What are you folks doing that requires 7-8 Ghz bandwidths?  Can you give an example of where you need that level of gear?

I imagine that just setting up a probing solution at those frequencies is an art unto itself.

[Martin72]

Just for example:

DDR3 electrical testing and timing analysis requires a 6 Series MSO oscilloscope with a recommended bandwidth of 8 GHz to cover entire range of DDR3 speed grades. However, for signal integrity testing and debug, a minimum bandwidth of 4 GHz would suffice most of the user's needs.

https://download.tek.com/datasheet/DDR3-and-LPDDR3-Measurement-and-Analysis-Software-on-6-Series-MSO-Datasheet-55W614702.pdf

[Sighound36]

Ethernet 1000base etc/DDR/TDR and the dual Spectrum II app is a nice as well SMPS testing with the DL-ISO Probe, FPGA' rail noise plus some emc immumity testing. The Waverunner HD is actually great for audio and power supply testing 200Mhz is really all you need for that.

I'm up for doing a back to back on the bigger BW Siglent 7000, haven't had a scope shoot out in a while, trying to accquire one of the new R&S 12 bits units. Though a few of the chaps I know with them have reported a few bugs that need ironing out shall we say, but are complimentry other wise

We have been that busy I haven't even unboxed the new  Wavepro HD yet, will rectify that this weekend 

[Martin72]

Hi,

Pushing this thread...
Is there any news about the progress of the SDS7000A ?
I am very curious about the targeted prices for it.
We had paid close to 14000€ in 2019 for a Lecroy HDO6034A (intel i5 cpu, 16GB DDR4 RAM, Windows 10), 12 bit native resolution and decoder/analyzer options....

[tautech]

Hi,

Pushing this thread...
Is there any news about the progress of the SDS7000A ?
I am very curious about the targeted prices for it.
We had paid close to 14000€ in 2019 for a Lecroy HDO6034A (intel i5 cpu, 16GB DDR4 RAM, Windows 10), 12 bit native resolution and decoder/analyzer options....

Means nothing unless we know the model CPU. 

Looking up the one stated to be used in SDS7000A gives a CPU Benchmark of 6162.
https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i3-8100+%40+3.60GHz&id=3103

[Martin72]

Means nothing unless we know the model CPU.

Rob....Seriously ?
The minimum configuration in lecroy pc-based scopes is a i5 4 core cpu with 3.2Ghz, except the hdo4000 series which got the lower i3 class onboard.
Btw, it is interesting that siglent is using a 6 year old cpu in their current scope under development - chances are that this cpu will be obsolete before the scope is released.
But if they have bought enough of them...
Either way, it will definitely be a "pro" scope, at "pro" prices.

[tautech]

Means nothing unless we know the model CPU.

Rob....Seriously ?
The minimum configuration in lecroy pc-based scopes is a i5 4 core cpu with 3.2Ghz, except the hdo4000 series which got the lower i3 class onboard.

This ^ you did not say however it means little unless we know the exact model CPU used so we can benchmark it. 

I run i3, i5 and i7 CPU's in benchtops that unless they are heavily loaded you cannot spot the differences in performance as they all boot W10 from a SSD. The best benchmark of which is a i7 in a tiny mini PC, a ASROCK Jupiter however it runs M.2 SSD, faster than any SATA memory.

I suspect a modern DSO design running a multiple core CPU is unlikely to suffer much in they way of performance hits running any of the above CPU's. IMO reliability, CPU heat generated and fan noise is of greater concern.

I look forward to seeing the developers choice of HW in action.

[tautech]

Shahriar has a quick peek at this model at IEEE Microwave Symposium 2023.
https://youtu.be/JmB1Exhz1HQ?t=1375

[Martin72]

I'm really curious to see how much it will end up costing.
I came to Siglent "back then" because I wanted to have good quality at an affordable price - and I can't afford a Lecroy.
For me it was a stroke of luck with the SDS touchscreen scopes, they do not have to hide, in total I consider them the best in their respective price range.
To date though, none of them come close to a lecroy PC based scope.
Which is not tragic, because they cost quite a bit more.
If Siglent then calls up the same prices as a Lecroy would cost, then there must already be weighty advantages that one then does not take the "original".
And I don't even mean the bandwidth.
As I said, I am curious.

[Martin72]

Backside of the beast, taken from the manual:

https://www.siglent.com/upload_file/document/SDS7000A_UserManual_CN01A.pdf

At least three fans...

[KungFuJosh]

Well, that's clearly PC based. Check out the connections panel...

[Sighound36]

I will be testing one out Vs one of the Wavepro HD's we have so I report back on that in the not to distant future.

The Wavepro HD also have three deep fans inside the unit.

Cost wise my feelings are starting about £15-£17k

[Martin72]

For the H10 Version I could believe this.
For the H12 Version......12 Bit and still (?) 20GSa/s, I think it will start with a "2" as the first number.

[tautech]

Release is just some 2 weeks away......
Only 3 and 4 GHz models will be available to the west.

Specs:

[Martin72]

12 Bit and 20GSa/s...This is a beast.
Any guesses about the "entry-price" ? 
My guess: 15k€ minimum without VAT.

[tautech]

12 Bit and 20GSa/s...This is a beast.
Any guesses about the "entry-price" ? 
My guess: 15k€ minimum without VAT.

Sighound36 was closer....for the 12 bit 3 GHz model....let's say a little under $20k. 
We don't have to wait long now.

[Martin72]

let's say a little under $20k.

Yepp, makes more sense.
I'll never be able to afford it, but I'm pleased for siglent that they can offer something like this.
No one can say anymore that they are not one of the "A-brands".

[tautech]

let's say a little under $20k.

Yepp, makes more sense.
I'll never be able to afford it, but I'm pleased for siglent that they can offer something like this.
No one can say anymore that they are not one of the "A-brands".

12 bit, new Siglent acquisition system, 1M WFPS and 1 GB mem option is a lot to deliver at cheaper pricing.

[2N3055]

let's say a little under $20k.

Yepp, makes more sense.
I'll never be able to afford it, but I'm pleased for siglent that they can offer something like this.
No one can say anymore that they are not one of the "A-brands".

12 bit, new Siglent acquisition system, 1M WFPS and 1 GB mem option is a lot to deliver at cheaper pricing.

That is not even the biggest thing. Take a look at ever expanding suite of Analysis and Compliance test packages. That is what so far was exclusive to big brands.  High end scopes are not only about big BW. It is about analysis packages and capability.
And there is the big leap happening..

[tautech]

Yes, I picked all options out yesterday from new pricelist:

SDS7000A-FG
SDS7000A-16LA
SDS7000A-PA
SDS7000A-EJ                   Eye Diagram/Jitter analysis
SDS7000A- I2S
SDS7000A-1553B
SDS7000A- FlexRay
SDS7000A-CANFD
SDS7000A-SENT
SDS7000A-ARINC
SDS7000A-Manch
SDS7000A-USB2
SDS7000A-CT-USB2              USB Compliance test
SDS7000A-CT-100Base-T           100Base-TX compliance test
SDS7000A-CT-1000Base-T
SDS7000A-CT-100Base-T1
SDS7000A-CT-1000Base-T1
SDS7000A-1GPTS                1 Gpts mem depth

[Martin72]

Except the memdepth, this is appx on lecroy-level, nice.

[luudee]

@Rob,

do you know if SDS7000A-1GPTS  is a SW only upgrade, or includes HW as well ?

Thank you !

Best Regards,
rudi

[tautech]

do you know if SDS7000A-1GPTS  is a SW only upgrade, or includes HW as well ?

SW option. Not cheap. 

[tautech]

OP updated with English datasheet and better image.

[Martin72]

I noticed it earlier on the Batronix site by complete coincidence:
So you don't see anything when you go to the page with the Siglent products, but if you happen to stop with the mouse pointer and a dropdown tab opens....

[tautech]

Yes, SDS7000A is product #71:
https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=71

[tautech]

Released today and links added to the OP.

[Martin72]

https://www.batronix.com/versand/oszilloskope/Siglent-SDS7304A-H12.html

Not too expensive...

[simone.pignatti]

Here is a nice picture I took today at Productronica in Munich.

[Martin72]

15.6" is already pretty huge, but in the meantime I have a bigger desk...
No, such a (price) class will remain a private dream.

[hpw]

Is there any known reason, as LeCroy with the RIS feature, as Siglent do not have this feature in any DSO gear?

To purchase such Silgent, any other as ROI counts (Support behavior, SW Update rate as bug fixing, the Country and its Po.... behavior...)

as for that money, spent value as for World Trusting 

Hp

[Martin72]

I've said this before, with Lecroy a short email is enough and it doesn't take long, then an engineer calls who has also put the same device on the table and then it starts.
(Of course they don't do that with a Wavesurfer 3000 or even smaller  )
They also have to offer this support if they want to play at the top.
But it could also be that this is the case, as I only know the small devices up to the HD from them.

[Performa01]

Regarding service: you may have noticed that there are two classes of instruments: the X-series, where price/performance ratio is minimized, and the A-series, which is meant for the professional market. The latter also has a different level of support.

[luudee]

What I really would like to know, how does the SDS7000 compare to the MXO5

I am ready for an upgrade, but need help deciding ...


Thanks !!!

rudi

[Martin72]

The latter also has a different level of support.

I can well imagine that.

@Rudi:
In such price ranges, there must be a way to be able to view/test the respective products beforehand.
Lecroy also lent us an HDO for about 3 weeks.

[luudee]

@Rudi:
In such price ranges, there must be a way to be able to view/test the respective products beforehand.
Lecroy also lent us an HDO for about 3 weeks.

Hi Martin,

yes R&S I could probably get an eval unit. But Siglent rep in Thailand is useless:
Their idea of customer service is, pay 130% of the listed purchase price upfront,
wait 3 months for delivery. It's a typical Asian brain-dead attitude. And they have
zero stock of any higher end scopes.

The R&S rep is fantastic on the other hand !

If I want the SDS7000 I have to import it myself. Most likely buy it directly from
Siglent China.

Best Regards,
rudi

[KungFuJosh]

What I really would like to know, how does the SDS7000 compare to the MXO5

Buy both, and send me the one you don't like. 😉

[2N3055]

@Rudi:
In such price ranges, there must be a way to be able to view/test the respective products beforehand.
Lecroy also lent us an HDO for about 3 weeks.

Hi Martin,

yes R&S I could probably get an eval unit. But Siglent rep in Thailand is useless:
Their idea of customer service is, pay 130% of the listed purchase price upfront,
wait 3 months for delivery. It's a typical Asian brain-dead attitude. And they have
zero stock of any higher end scopes.

The R&S rep is fantastic on the other hand !

If I want the SDS7000 I have to import it myself. Most likely buy it directly from
Siglent China.

Best Regards,
rudi

So you would like help with compiling a table comparison of basic data?

First, these two scopes are not for the exactly the same market. 

-SDSD7000A  - 4GHz BW 20/10 GS/s
-MXO5           - 2GHz BW  5/2,5 GS/s

-SDSD7000A  - 4 ch
-MXO5           - 4/8 ch 

MXO5 is scope that is optimised for user experience (fast refresh rates on scope and FFT), big screen and all of that.
It does not have any advanced analytical capabilities at this moment above SDS6000A. Actually SDS6000A has eye diagram that MXO5 does not have (at least at the moment).

It is not high end advanced analysis scope, but rather "luxury version" of (at this moment) pretty basic scope. It is basically R&S RTA4000 on steroids. More memory, bigger screen, faster processing, but no additional capabilities.
Don't get me wrong. This is not critique.
There is a market for what is "better than basic" scopes but with large screen, and fancy user experience.
If you look at MSO5 brochure, it is obvious they are targeting electric power, automotive, embedded and such market. But in style, with big screen, window customizations and so on. Lots of analog channels, decodes etc...
I think it will be very good scope for that if you can bear the price.

But apart from 12 bit, bigger screen, and max 8 channels, even SDS6000A (Not SDS7000A !!) has more analytic capabilities. And SDS6000A has 5GS/s at all time, so it is a 2GHz scope propper. MXO5 cannot achieve 2 GHz BW with all channels on.

Enter SDS7000A. 4GHz BW. 20/10 GS/s. 12 bit. PC platform. They also claim much faster trigger rate than ever before, up to 1M Wfms/s. ERES is equivalent of R&S Hires mode. 3GHz SDS7000A claims similar noise floor at 5mV/div to 2GHz MXO5, which means SDS7000 is very low noise for it's BW. Several low speed decodes free. 32 Mpts FFT.
Compliance tests for USB2.0, 100Base-TX, 100Base-T1,  1000Base-T1 for now. SignalScan, Eye/Jitter Analysis.

It is obvious that it scope for faster signals, geared more towards digital designer.. But still being 12 bit, it is excellent for fast analog too...
It is a scope that is tier above MXO5 in capabilities.
It was just released so info is still scarce. There are lots of features to be introduced with time too.

Conclusion? These are basically different type of scopes.

R&S MXO5 is made to be very "fancy" analytically simpler scope with 8 ch emphasizing "user experience" above all.

SDS7000 is Siglent's new powerhorse. It's class is 4GHz 12 bit scopes similar to LeCroy.....

For the list price of 500MHz MXO5 you can get SDS7000A 4GHz..

Which one do you need?

[Martin72]

. It is basically R&S RTA4000 on steroids.

 
Made my day 

[luudee]

So you would like help with compiling a table comparison of basic data?

.....

SDS7000 is Siglent's new powerhorse. It's class is 4GHz 12 bit scopes similar to LeCroy.....

For the list price of 500MHz MXO5 you can get SDS7000A 4GHz..

Which one do you need?

Thank you so much for your analysis, 2N3055. 

I always look forward to your posts !


Kind Regards,
rudi

[2N3055]

So you would like help with compiling a table comparison of basic data?

.....

SDS7000 is Siglent's new powerhorse. It's class is 4GHz 12 bit scopes similar to LeCroy.....

For the list price of 500MHz MXO5 you can get SDS7000A 4GHz..

Which one do you need?

Thank you so much for your analysis, 2N3055. 

I always look forward to your posts !


Kind Regards,
rudi

Rudi,
thank you for the kind words.
My pleasure if it was helpful..

Best,

Sinisa

[Sighound36]

Had an update on UK pricing today the 3Ghz is going to around £17K and the 4Ghz in the 22K mark

Get to play with one in mid December, looking forward to it 

[Martin72]

Lecroy Wavepro 404HD...4Ghz bandwith, 20GSa/s/100Mpts upt to 5Gpts.
The SDS7000A can be classified in roughly this class.
And from this point of view, the two Siglents are a bargain.
Really great from siglent.

[BillyO]

Starting at only $28,500.00 CAD.  Hmm, maybe I should buy two!   

Actually, that's a bargain for the specs.   Game changer for sure.

[hpw]

Lecroy Wavepro 404HD...4Ghz bandwith, 20GSa/s/100Mpts upt to 5Gpts.
The SDS7000A can be classified in roughly this class.
And from this point of view, the two Siglents are a bargain.
Really great from siglent.

IMHO, just compare the given internal reference accuracy and soon you will understand about the possible Jitter figures...

what gear to be trusted for any professionals.

[tautech]

Lecroy Wavepro 404HD...4Ghz bandwith, 20GSa/s/100Mpts upt to 5Gpts.
The SDS7000A can be classified in roughly this class.
And from this point of view, the two Siglents are a bargain.
Really great from siglent.

IMHO, just compare the given internal reference accuracy and soon you will understand about the possible Jitter figures...

what gear to be trusted for any professionals.

Someone is not doing their homework ! 
Optional internal reference:
https://siglentna.com/product/10m_ocxo_l/

[2N3055]

Lecroy Wavepro 404HD...4Ghz bandwith, 20GSa/s/100Mpts upt to 5Gpts.
The SDS7000A can be classified in roughly this class.
And from this point of view, the two Siglents are a bargain.
Really great from siglent.

IMHO, just compare the given internal reference accuracy and soon you will understand about the possible Jitter figures...

what gear to be trusted for any professionals.

What jitter?

Scope timebase jitter?
Sample jitter?
Trigger jitter?
Characteristics of Jitter/Eye measurement package?

I honestly don't understand what you are saying.

And the last sentence I cannot understand if it is an insult or question.

Let's compare:

SDS7000:
Standard (TCXO): ±2 ppm initial (0~50℃); ±0.5 ppm 1st year aging; ±3 ppm 20-year aging
Optional (OCXO)：±100 ppb initial (25℃)；±1 ppb over temperature (0~50℃)；±50 ppb 1st year aging

R&S MSO5 datasheet:
Timebase accuracy after delivery/calibration, at +23 °C ±0.2 ppm
during calibration interval ±1 ppm

I would say few things in this comparison. Siglent specification is more detailed (profesional ?).
R&S has high initial accuracy than SDS7000 with TCXO but worse 1 years aging and no long term specification.
SDS7000 equipped with OCXO is superior in all 3 paramaters.

No manufacturer specified phase noise/clock jitter of internal oscillator.  Can't compare it. I will refrain of hand waving.

[J_in_MN]

A video from Siglent that talks a little about the design decisions and differentiation compared to competitors.

[hpw]

Well, well,

 I do not get any more blamed by any OXCO, before you measured it or tear down what crap you have!
In addition the final performance counts and the possible measurements as RIS or similar required.

At first, IMHO the base oscillator counts (any different as seen on the old LeCroy WM8xxx or SD6xxx series).

So as Siglent & Rigol are new on that Jitter Tools, a real tear down & compare with a reference would show up how the really performs.
Using various DSO as from Teledyne, Keysight, R&S, Siglent & Rigols & etc. The Jitter Tools setup is also not a easy task.

Its like a fast pulse, as real 30ps Rise time and lower DSO brands will show up false values.

Attached Teledyne Wavepro HD given figures as for me a better reference. 

[Sighound36]

Being a WaveprovHD owner I well comparing 4Ghz 7000 Siglent shortly

I expect it to perform very well i may even purchase one when the Wavemaster HD arrives

The R&S MX05 is notb being this league its a well engineered and specifically designed scope for a different sector of the market

The MX05 is basically two 04's in one box with another 500Mhz on top its analysis tools are basic at best currently it's also 5GS/s not 20GS/s it certainly has its place no question.

But we are comparing apples to oranges imho

The internal claimed jitter on the Wavepro hd is 60pS with its internal clocks.

[hpw]

Being a WaveprovHD owner I well comparing 4Ghz 7000 Siglent shortly

I expect it to perform very well i may even purchase one when the Wavemaster HD arrives

The R&S MX05 is notb being this league its a well engineered and specifically designed scope for a different sector of the market

The MX05 is basically two 04's in one box with another 500Mhz on top its analysis tools are basic at best currently it's also 5GS/s not 20GS/s it certainly has its place no question.

But we are comparing apples to oranges imho

The internal claimed jittervonbthe Wavepro hd is 60pS with its internal clocks.

It is 60fs NOT 60ps, otherwise 20ps time scale would be unreadable...

The other question rises about the claimed 60fs RMS and it's PN figures. I expect here a 10MHz internal oscillator.

Hp

[Sighound36]

Being a WaveprovHD owner I well comparing 4Ghz 7000 Siglent shortly

I expect it to perform very well i may even purchase one when the Wavemaster HD arrives

The R&S MX05 is notb being this league its a well engineered and specifically designed scope for a different sector of the market

The MX05 is basically two 04's in one box with another 500Mhz on top its analysis tools are basic at best currently it's also 5GS/s not 20GS/s it certainly has its place no question.

But we are comparing apples to oranges imho

The internal claimed jittervonbthe Wavepro hd is 60pS with its internal clocks.

It is 60fs NOT 60ps, otherwise 20ps time scale would be unreadable...

The other question rises about the claimed 60fs RMS and it's PN figures. I expect here a 10MHz internal oscillator.

Hp

You are quite correct HP, I should have spotted that schoolboy error, in my defence I was using the pad in the small hours of the morning!

The Wavepro HD/Signal genny/RTA are also slaved to the lab's a 13.2fS jitter reference 10Mhz clock which is -123dbm @ 1Hz no distribution box just eight outputs from the clock direct. Even the  industry standard FSWP doesn't have that sort of phase noise (or lack of it)

However the Siglent 7000's base line spec I don't know but I'm sure some one will enlighten me, the 7000 is due here in the UK before Christmas so I will be spending some time with one very soon.

[hpw]

>> 10Mhz clock which is -123dbm @ 1Hz no distribution

Yes, I have also such Sine based 50E OXCO as 120dBc @ 1Hz. IMHO other short time metrics important.

May test all individual inputs, as all should show up equal behavior Jitter values & graphs.
My SDA6xxx do show any different Histograms

>> However the Siglent 7000's base line spec I don't know...

Yes, very very pure ... as nothing of the Jitter Kit

Hp

[Martin72]

the 7000 is due here in the UK before Christmas so I will be spending some time with one very soon.

Oh yes....

[Sighound36]

Hwp

The reference clock is a square wave form, rather than a sine wave. I performed some indepth jitter & eye analysis on the unit a while back see below.

Martin

If the 7000 performs as expected I shall be purchasing one, as one of the chaps that works with keeps 'borrowing' my Wavepro HD 

[pope]

May I ask why a scope would need a mic input and an audio output ?

[tautech]

May I ask why a scope would need a mic input and an audio output ?

Have you worked that out yet ?

This DSO is PC based and it is normal to have audio capabilities on a PC main board.

[pope]

May I ask why a scope would need a mic input and an audio output ?

Have you worked that out yet ?

This DSO is PC based and it is normal to have audio capabilities on a PC main board.

It is normal indeed. What I'm asking though is in which scenario an o'scope would need an audio I/O.

[Martin72]

You can't get a mainboard without these connectors.
They are simply there and are not used.

[Performa01]

It is normal indeed. What I'm asking though is in which scenario an o'scope would need an audio I/O.

There are applications imaginable.

A microphone could be used for audio notes accompanying screenshots for documentation purposes or even voice control for the instrument.

Headphones on the other hand can be used with each spectrum analyzer that has demodulation capabilities.

Maybe we'll see some of the above features in the future...

[hpw]

@Sighound36

Very good ... a starting point for compare 

>> The reference clock is a square wave form

Also 50E load enabled? And may tell what brand do you use?

Does SE-120 means WavePro HDO404 HD ??

>> SE-120 wavepro jitter kit

Do you get equal Histogram on each channels as Ch2, Ch3, Ch4 ??

>> SE-120 wavepro resjit histogram

May have to check its a part of the new SDA III or JitKit

As Teledyne JitterKit Paper, recommended to use 10 Wave Cycles ... and you use may 200 Cycles: Any reason for this?
 
Or do you have your own guidelines

Hp
 

[Sighound36]

Hp
Yes 50Ohm impedance which is really essential for square waveforms where as sinewave it's much, much less critical imho.

I used full SDA linq with the new 10.5 FW and it's very very close on all channels. The jitkit is just a basic look but an accurate one in fairness.

In the new year the jitkit will be superceded by Clock xpert which will separate certain aspects of the SDA which will concentrate more on higher spec pcie/usb4/6G/ high speed serial data formats.

This I suspect is aimed at the new Wavemaster HD

Clock expert will include indepth eye analysis full jitter suite plus a new phase noise section incorporated.

I also have a Holzworth phase noise analyser and a UXA 50Ghz unit with phase noise app. So I have that aspect of measurement covered I feel.  Although Aaronia have some interesting products in the offing as well next year.

The label SE-120 refers to the clock's model number

Lecroys whitepapers are guidelines and each user I feel will adapt the settings for their own applications.

Our UK Lecroy reps are always on the lookout for tips and tricks to improve measurement ways and to reduce all operator error and refining the processes. Its a two way street.

I find the eye view & dual spectrum analyser option used in conjuction with a couple of RP4060 rail probes to view the clocks supplies rf noise sitting on the rails. On top of that a RTA with near field probes looking at clock radiated rf and board layouts can tell you a great deal inho

[tautech]

FYI
Siglent offer a SDS7000A product release promotion of free option licenses until June 30 2024.
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-78.html
https://siglentna.com/news-article/siglent-sds7000a-introduction-promotion/
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/siglent-sds7000a-introduction-promotion/

Option                        Description
SDS7000A-FG   50 MHz built-in function generator
SDS7000A-16LA   MSO function (software), use with SPL2016 probe
SDS7000A-PA   Power Analysis: Power Quality, Current Harmonics, Inrush Current, Switching Loss, Slew Rate, Modulation, Output Ripple, Turn On/Off, Transient Response, PSRR, Efficiency
SDS7000A-I2S   I2S trigger & decode
SDS7000A-1553B   MIL-STD-1553B trigger & decode
SDS7000A-FlexRay   FlexRay trigger & decode
SDS7000A-CANFD   CAN FD trigger & decode
SDS7000A-SENT   SENT trigger & decode
SDS7000A-Manch   Manchester decode
SDS7000A-ARINC   ARINC429 trigger & decode (software)
SDS7000A-USB2   USB 2.0 decode (software)

[Martin72]

This promotion is only avaible in Asia, Africa and Latin Americas area

Possibly misinformation, because Batronix has had the bundle since the beginning:
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS7304A-H12.html

[tautech]

This promotion is only available in Asia, Africa and Latin Americas area

Possibly misinformation, ........

Yours. 
The promo is available in all regions.......yes I checked all 3 Siglent websites.
Additional links added above.

[Martin72]

When following your link, it is clear readable that is only for the mentioned regions.
They should correct this.

[EEVblog]

May I ask why a scope would need a mic input and an audio output ?

Have you worked that out yet ?
This DSO is PC based and it is normal to have audio capabilities on a PC main board.

Interesting but not surprising that they switched from ARM to Intel core i5 and a standard motherboard. Would make development way easier, and cost minimisation really isn't a factor at this high end price point.

[KungFuJosh]

Interesting but not surprising that they switched from ARM to Intel core i5 and a standard motherboard. Would make development way easier, and cost minimisation really isn't a factor at this high end price point.

Might as well pay $50 for a motherboard if they're going to charge over $20,000 for the scope. 😉

[MathWizard]

Has anyone tried hacking these yet to see if it can play Duke Nukem 3D ??

[Sighound36]

Come on, Siglent are designed with hackability built in on all of their products those 7000 scopes will take a little longer to come to fruition as your average EEV Blog member isn't going to shell out on one for a hackaday project or maybe I'm wrong 

[Martin72]

What would interest me is whether there could be more 12 bit models on the global market.
The Chinese have:
 -800X HD
-1000X HD
-2000X HD
-3000X HD
-6000 Pro H10/H12
-7000 A

"We" have:
-2000X HD
- 7000A

That's a bit meager...
While the 12-bit Siglent is represented in almost all price ranges on the Asian market, there is a huge gap between the 2000X HD and 7000A on the global market.
Which other manufacturers are filling, such as R&S MXO4.
I am happy with my 2504 X HD, but if I wanted "more" I would have to change brands, which I would find a shame.

[nctnico]

That probably has to do with Lecroy not wanting to have their share of the 12 bit market saturated. Problem with the cooperation between Siglent and Lecroy is that much what Lecroy tells to Siglent only applies to the market Lecroy is serving themselves. Keysight, Tektronix and R&S make oscilloscopes with a different phylosophy behind them so each fill different niches with the strong points of their devices.

[tautech]

What would interest me is whether there could be more 12 bit models on the global market.
The Chinese have:
 -800X HD
-1000X HD
-2000X HD
-3000X HD
-6000 Pro H10/H12
-7000 A

"We" have:
-2000X HD
- 7000A

That's a bit meager...

For now.
2024 will be very different.

[Martin72]

That probably has to do with Lecroy not wanting to have their share of the 12 bit market saturated. Problem with the cooperation between Siglent and Lecroy is that much what Lecroy tells to Siglent only applies to the market Lecroy is serving themselves. Keysight, Tektronix and R&S make oscilloscopes with a different phylosophy behind them so each fill different niches with the strong points of their devices.

Keysight doesn't even have any affordable 12-bit models, you can get them for several 10000€.
Tektronix is too expensive for what it offers, R&S is a ray of hope.
If you want something good from Lecroy, the minimum price is around €15,000.
In this respect, I'm a little surprised that Siglent is "allowed" to offer such a caliber as the 7000A here.
Or that the 2000X HD was allowed to come out here.
The obvious agreement is probably being softened somewhat.

For now.
2024 will be very different.

I'll only believe it when I see it.
The only thing Siglent EU has admitted so far is that an entry-level 12-bit scope will be released in the first quarter.

[tautech]

Martin said:
If you want something good from Lecroy, the minimum price is around €15,000.
In this respect, I'm a little surprised that Siglent is "allowed" to offer such a caliber as the 7000A here.
Or that the 2000X HD was allowed to come out here.
The obvious agreement is probably being softened somewhat.

Think again all !
Refresh what you know and think from the info in post #60 ! 

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds7000a-dsos-coming/msg4642900/#msg4642900

[Martin72]

Refresh what you know

Did it.
Now.

[tautech]

Refresh what you know

Did it.
Now.

Explains lots, don’t it. 

[Martin72]

Yep, everything is clear now, let´s wait and see.

[EEVblog]

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds7000a-dsos-coming/msg4642900/#msg4642900

I wonder what the unit cost is of that 8GHz front end ASIC compared to say Rigol's 800MHz ASIC?

[tautech]

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds7000a-dsos-coming/msg4642900/#msg4642900

I wonder what the unit cost is of that 8GHz front end ASIC compared to say Rigol's 800MHz ASIC?

Does it matter ?
3 new 12bit models will soon come and IMO this new ASIC has given Siglent some leverage in the 12bit ADC market to get pricing down.
This is evident with reduced SDS2000X HD cost and if the proposed cost of the 2 GSa/s SDS800X HD is to believed then the world is a changing……and rapidly.

[Antonio90]

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds7000a-dsos-coming/msg4642900/#msg4642900

I wonder what the unit cost is of that 8GHz front end ASIC compared to say Rigol's 800MHz ASIC?

Does it matter ?
3 new 12bit models will soon come and IMO this new ASIC has given Siglent some leverage in the 12bit ADC market to get pricing down.
This is evident with reduced SDS2000X HD cost and if the proposed cost of the 2 GSa/s SDS800X HD is to believed then the world is a changing……and rapidly.

I find that pricing taking effect in EU hard to believe TBH. If that's the case it will be a game-changer indeed, as that kind of capability is missing even from scopes 5x the price.

[points2]

3 new 12bit models will soon come...

Hi tautech,
3 new 12b models !? Oulala !
Do you mean some 12bits versions of the SDS5000 & SDS6000 series ?
I plan to replace my SDS2104Plus(converted to 2504Xplus ), I would need something like a SDS6204A (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS6204A.html).
If I understand correctly what you mean, it's a bad idea to buy a SDS6000 for Christmas, isn't it ?

[tautech]

3 new 12bit models will soon come...

Hi tautech,
3 new 12b models !? Oulala !
Do you mean some 12bits versions of the SDS5000 & SDS6000 series ?
I plan to replace my SDS2104Plus(converted to 2504Xplus ), I would need something like a SDS6204A (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS6204A.html).
If I understand correctly what you mean, it's a bad idea to buy a SDS6000 for Christmas, isn't it ?

Western SDS6000A are officially only 8bit however they do offer additional ERES bits beyond what other 8bit DSOs do.
Forecast 12bit releases for 2024
SDS800X HD
SDS1000X HD
SDS3000X HD
There’s limited info about all these on the forum.

[hpw]

If the 7000 performs as expected I shall be purchasing one, as one of the chaps that works with keeps 'borrowing' my Wavepro HD 

So any upcoming updates on this SDS7000A gear??

Hp

[Ulrich.G]

So any upcoming updates on this SDS7000A gear??

In the meantime there is an 8Ghz bandwidth model on the Chinese webside, when did that happen?

[2N3055]

So any upcoming updates on this SDS7000A gear??

In the meantime there is an 8Ghz bandwidth model on the Chinese webside, when did that happen?

In the meantime ?

Datasheet publishing date is 23.Jan.24.

[coromonadalix]

With the help of Tautech

In North America / Canada / Quebec city,     i'll be able in a few days, to borrow a 3Ghz demo sent to my company .... to evaluate it, with pico seconds events ...  and see the possibility to craft our own software to control it with lan / scpi ....

So far very pleased with many Siglent instruments  ...

I have to wait for the pico generator to come back to us from certification, to schedule it


Can't wait to have it in my hands   ..  and could easily end with a purchase ...

[Construct]

With the help of Tautech

In North America / Canada / Quebec city,     i'll be able in a few days, to borrow a 3Ghz demo sent to my company .... to evaluate it, with pico seconds events ...  and see the possibility to craft our own software to control it with lan / scpi ....

So far very pleased with many Siglent instruments  ...

I have to wait for the pico generator to come back to us from certification, to schedule it


Can't wait to have it in my hands   ..  and could easily end with a purchase ...

Very cool.

Looking forward to your results.

[coromonadalix]

received a 3gig demo unit

only thing so far to play with

I have an picolab 45 picosecond generator 4050b  and a Siglent SSG3032X

wow  thins thing is huge in person, the relay clicks are strong  loll  boot pretty fast

This puppy has BNC inputs  witch play trick on me, since i'm fully wired in sma .... i use an old tek scope  tds7254b series with their active input TCA  adapters   

[Martin72]

Pics, pics, we want pics...

[coromonadalix]

loll  here's one, but no tear down  loll  boy i would love to   loll


have to take measurements   etc ....

just to get the ''know how"   for an old tech like me  loll     I always have some problems with unified channels controls 

Multi touch screen it seems,  i can zoom with fingers  loll    the screen protector is glossy, very glossy ...

[2N3055]

loll  here's one, but no tear down  loll  boy i would love to   loll


have to take measurements   etc ....

just to get the ''know how"   for an old tech like me  loll     I always have some problems with unified channels controls 

Multi touch screen it seems,  i can zoom with fingers  loll    the screen protector is glossy, very glossy ...

On all of the touch Siglents you can zoom with fingers..

That is removable protector for transport.. End user removes it.. Means you got a pristine new scope for test.
Screen is not glossy.

[coromonadalix]

yep sorry     I was not clear enough  ....

Like a kid i did not read user manual,  too excited to play with  loll       silly me 

Intrigued by the TCXO  option who can be added,  i'm not sure if it already equipped  with,  i did not read the system info / status       loll

My IT   guy is the second in queue, he want to read the programation manual / references   and try some commands tomorrow

We will develop a special software with it,   to automate some tests and generate certifications  ....   

[2N3055]

yep sorry     I was not clear enough  ....

Like a kid i did not read user manual,  too excited to play with  loll       silly me 

Intrigued by the TCXO  option who can be added,  i'm not sure if it already equipped  with,  i did not read the system info / status       loll

My IT   guy is the second in queue, he want to read the programation manual / references   and try some commands tomorrow

We will develop a special software with it,   to automate some tests and generate certifications  ....   

Not criticizing, just saying..have fun.
TCXO is small module in the back. You can see if it is installed.

[coromonadalix]

non taken

sadly   i can not remove the back panel  i think there is some hidden screws behind the rear overlay   sadly no internals to show 

the TCXO  OCXO is not present,  it as an look a like pcie 1x  slot


some crude compare between an old tek  loll at 1/3  of the weight  loll

[2N3055]

non taken

sadly   i can not remove the back panel  i think there is some hidden screws behind the rear overlay   sadly no internals to show 

the TCXO  OCXO is not present,  it as an look a like pcie 1x  slot


some crude compare between an old tek  loll at 1/3  of the weight  loll

Yeah, that's no to TCXO.
That is a big scope..

[Martin72]

A dream....
Which will always remain one as long as I don't win the lottery.

[KungFuJosh]

A dream....
Which will always remain one as long as I don't win the lottery.

If you do win, get me one too please. 😉

[tautech]

the TCXO  OCXO is not present,  it as an look a like pcie 1x  slot

From the US website

Pt# 10M_OCXO_L

[hpw]

have to take measurements   etc ....

Does your demo gear comes with Jitter Options? And please measure with accurate sources as an OXCO with know PN figures...

Interesting would be to connect simple the 10MHz Reference to the input and do some large FFT to see any 1/f figures

[tautech]

received a 3gig demo unit

Please tell, with cooling 3 fans, how quiet/noisy is this unit ?

[coromonadalix]

With the fans,   very tolerable,   you have 4  in it,   the one we don't see is the mobo fan

the SDS1204x-e we have are more noisy,  their fan pwm frequency is slightly higher, i could say "we hear the flow"  ?

3 meter apart, the sds1204x-e and sds7000a,     SDS7000a  is almost silent  wow

Digital inputs,   Pcie 1x connector



I wont compare it with the old tek as the noisiest source, 9 fans on one side  loll                this one is whispering  loll

Fans start faster like a server 76db and slow down to 51db / taken from 1 feet behind the scope.


Some of options :

Screen test, Led tests, Keyboard test,  Developer mode (with password)

Self calibration after 10 min warm up,  take maybe a good 10 minutes or more,   comes with a info bar percentage (% Done) on the screen


Quotation request sent  for the 3 and 4 gig  .....


some system infos pictures and options,  not sure  if we could get most of them on purchase package ?     loll  or some magic ?

not sure if we can call a touch screen calibration ? ,  i would say  slightly off,  still in the tick boxes  but ....

[tautech]

some system infos pictures and options,  not sure  if we could get most of them on purchase package ?   

Most options are free as part of an introduction promotional package until mid 2024
https://siglentna.com/news-article/siglent-sds7000a-introduction-promotion/
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/siglent-sds7000a-introduction-promotion/
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-78.html

[Martin72]

some system infos pictures and options

Lots of options, much to my delight.
Including some that only lecroy usually has and that we need.
I think I'll have to talk to our purchasing department.

[coromonadalix]

loll       done  that  loll    still waiting for an quote answer

I'm impressed, still lot to discover,  still have to master the "unified 4 channels controls"  witch is not my forte 
Controls are fast and responsive to say the least.

But  another thing:
When you request the "auto setup",  you get an yes or no  popup asking if you still want to do it  ??   witch break a little bit,  the purpose of the auto setup ?? 
Unless it could be risky for the input stages ??  That should be removed  loll ... trying to see if it's an selectable / removable option  ??

Because the small SDS1204...    dont have this nag

[tautech]

But  another thing:
When you request the "auto setup",  you get an yes or no  popup asking if you still want to do it ??   witch break a little bit,  the purpose of the auto setup ?? 
Unless it could be risky for the input stages ??  That should be removed  loll ... trying to see if it's an selectable / removable option  ??

Because the small SDS1204...    dont have this nag

Good feature instead of just applying Autoset when you press it by mistake and it then changes all your scope settings. 
However if this has an Undo (and it should) no harm is done.

[KungFuJosh]

I also hate the autoset confirmation. The confirmation should be optional in the settings.

[hpw]

some system infos pictures and options,  not sure  if we could get most of them on purchase package ?   

Most options are free as part of an introduction promotional package until mid 2024
https://siglentna.com/news-article/siglent-sds7000a-introduction-promotion/
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/siglent-sds7000a-introduction-promotion/
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-78.html

Would be a value, if the the Jitter-Kit is included with missing Jit-Kit specification as the Scope Jitter specification.

My 2 cents, otherwise 20K$ 

Hp

[tautech]

some system infos pictures and options,  not sure  if we could get most of them on purchase package ?   

Most options are free as part of an introduction promotional package until mid 2024
https://siglentna.com/news-article/siglent-sds7000a-introduction-promotion/
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/siglent-sds7000a-introduction-promotion/
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-78.html

Would be a value, if the the Jitter-Kit is included with missing Jit-Kit specification as the Scope Jitter specification.

P12
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/23_12_27/SDS7000A_Datasheet_EN01B.pdf

[hpw]

some system infos pictures and options,  not sure  if we could get most of them on purchase package ?   

Most options are free as part of an introduction promotional package until mid 2024
https://siglentna.com/news-article/siglent-sds7000a-introduction-promotion/
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/siglent-sds7000a-introduction-promotion/
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-78.html

Would be a value, if the the Jitter-Kit is included with missing Jit-Kit specification as the Scope Jitter specification.

P12
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/23_12_27/SDS7000A_Datasheet_EN01B.pdf

Well, as SDA7000A may looks like a bargain, with unknown performing figures, but how it compares to a WaveMaster 8000HD: Starting from $270,000 

[coromonadalix]

sadly  since there is calibration sticker / void,    i can not open the unit     they are on screw i did not saw on my 1st attempt  loll      near the foot

[tautech]

New firmware for SDS7000A models.

Version： V1.1.5.1
270 MB
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Oscilloscope/SDS7000A_V1.1.5.1_EN.zip

Release notes
1. Cursor: Supported more cursors, and more flexible cursor combination
2. Fixed several bugs

Includes the previous version changes/fixes:
Supported new probes: Siglent’s SCP5030, SCP5030A, SCP5150, SCP5500
Measure: Optimized UX of Track and Trend; Supported to export measure data
Fixed several bugs
Slow response after pressing Math button
AWG: SCPI cannot set Load
Some bugs of USB2.0 compliance test
Some bugs of 100Base-TX and 1000Base-T compliance test
Some bugs on Options’ unlock

[ddrl46]

Is there any news about the higher bandwidth versions of the SDS7000A being released outside of China?

[tautech]

Is there any news about the higher bandwidth versions of the SDS7000A being released outside of China?

Zip.....not that I've asked yet.

I'll try to get a programme.

[tautech]

Is there any news about the higher bandwidth versions of the SDS7000A being released outside of China?

Zip.....not that I've asked yet.

I'll try to get a programme.

Nothing definitive, aiming for Q4 is the word.

[tautech]

Finally after a very recent visit to Siglent HQ we were able to spend a little time with a SDS7404A. 

It's a big scope and reasonably quiet and boots quite fast, no doubt due to its PC based architecture.
The unit I played with was of unknown to me FW which allowed several configurations of the display providing up to 9 windows however as only one window in the attached image was configured to display traces .... but you get the idea.

[Martin72]

It's such a shame that it's so far away from me in terms of price.
Ever since I first experienced it 20 years ago, I've found multi-grid (windows) displays brilliant.
I was all the more “disappointed” when I realized that even today this technology can only be found in expensive scopes.
I thought that if it already existed in Lecroy scopes from the 1990s, then it must not be a problem to implement it almost everywhere today.
If you consider that the Lecroy 93XX scopes had a 16 bit 68000 CPU and a few kB RAM...
But no.
Too bad.

[points2]

Hi Martin72,
I've got only a few years experience in electronics (a old diploma in engineering is somewhere  )
Thus, far from your "20years"...

Question :
with your experience, you're still looking at RT-scope vs >10GHz scopes ?
could you please explain, given that you have a sampling scope at 3kEur (see topic in this forum)... that outperforms these beasts ?

Disclaimer : Siglent SDS7000A is a high-end product, at "nice price", like MXO4s

Just an idea : for any hobbyist that is looking for "more BW" at "nice price" : a sampling scope is a gift...

[Martin72]

At home I have what I can afford and then I want the ‘best’ for the money.
And that's what I have.
I certainly don't ‘need’ the SDS7000A, but if I could afford it, I would still buy it.
Because as I said, the best for the money...
Privately, I hardly do anything that requires a high bandwidth, so I could be happy with the SDS3000X HD.
As an old man, I just wish I had a bigger display.

At work we now have projects that require a higher bandwidth, so a 2.5Ghz Lecroy WavePro HD is now on the way.
I would have liked to buy a 7000A for us, but was in the minority, so now a lower bandwidth scope at twice the price.

[tautech]

The SDS7000A range has been updated with a new 6 GHz model, OP updated to reflect this.

Datasheet:
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/24_11_12/SDS7000A_Datasheet_EN02A.pdf

[skander36]

Isn't available also an 8 GHz model?

[tautech]

Isn't available also an 8 GHz model?

Only to the east as yet.
I have no further info if or when the 8 GHz model might be available to the west.

[egonotto]

Hello,

at Batronix there is the 6 GHz
Siglent SDS7604A H12 for € 42471.10


Best regards
egonotto

[tautech]

7000A owners
Joe would like to see 4 windows with channel on each, as below:

SDS7000A allows for up to 9 windows of waveforms to be displayed.

I would like to see anyone who has access to one of these, please turn on all four channels.  Now display each channel on it's own unique graph.  It sounds like from Tautechs couple of posts, they support this, like my LeCroy DSOs.   However, reading the users manual for the Siglent, it appears this is not supported.   That would be a major miss if the Siglent restricts what can be displayed in these windows.   

I am expecting it to work something like I show with the LeCroy in that video.  Turn on all the traces, select the number of windows and the scope will automatically bring them up.

Images on the US website show 2 channels in use with Math operations on both displayed in 4 windows.
https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds7000a-digital-storage-oscilloscope/

I grabbed a screenshot from one when at HQ last year:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds7000a-dsos-coming/msg5605511/#msg5605511

Pretty much what the manual suggests but not what I want to see.   Just show me a simple time domain for each trace in four separate windows.    It looks like it can't do this which would be hard to believe.

Also for kicks, set the 7000 with 2 channels with a 0.5ms/div roll mode, zoom set to 10ms, 1MS/s and 5MS.  Can you even set the zoom below 100ms??

[matia100]

Hey Joe,

it runs

Roll Mode

Siglent says "It only operates at timebase values of 100 ms/div and above. If you would like to stop the display in Roll mode, click Acquire > Run/Stop . To clear the display and restart an acquisition in Roll mode, perform Acquire > Run/Stop again.
Note: Zoom is only supported after Stop in Roll mode."

[tautech]

SDS7000A discussion from here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/help-on-finding-an-oscilloscope-that-can-display-zoomed-traces-when-rolling/msg5824169/#msg5824169

[joeqsmith]

Hey Joe,

it runs
(Attachment Link)
Roll Mode
(Attachment Link)
Siglent says "It only operates at timebase values of 100 ms/div and above. If you would like to stop the display in Roll mode, click Acquire > Run/Stop . To clear the display and restart an acquisition in Roll mode, perform Acquire > Run/Stop again.
Note: Zoom is only supported after Stop in Roll mode."

First, big thanks for proving that test case for me.   Am I the only one who finds it a bit strange that my 18 year old LeCroy could handle 10ms in that apples to apples case I demo'ed for Tautech, where the 3000 was limited to 50ms, and the $40,000 7000 is limited to 100ms? 

I was surprised how they pack all the waveforms onto one graph in time domain and require you to use the mouse to drag them.  Then to get them in separate unique graphs for each channel, you end up wasting half the screen.   Just seems crazy to me that their high end instruments don't seem more polished.   If I were spending $40k on a DSO, it would have to hit the ground running.  Not based a promise of better things to come.    Again, just me.   

***
I should be clear that when spending $5000 for a scope, my expectations are going to be much lower than a scope costing 8X that amount. 

[KungFuJosh]

promise of better things to come.

Well, hopefully by the time it's 18 years old it can do all that stuff too. And cost less. 😉

[joeqsmith]

promise of better things to come.

Well, hopefully by the time it's 18 years old it can do all that stuff too. And cost less. 😉

You bring up a very good point.  Unlike Siglent, LeCroy had the basic grids sorted out in the 1980s.  One button to bring up the grid menu, one button to select the number of grids.  All channels separated and sorted for you.     

By the time they released the 64xi and my 8500A,  these basic features worked out of the box.  Of course, they decided to enter the race to the bottom with rebranding and cost cutting.   My 18 year old LeCroy's plastics continue to degrade. 
   
Demo of my 1989 LeCroy 7200 (68000 VME chassis, MFM drive) from the USAF, powering up and selecting different grids. 

[Martin72]

Oh yes, my “first” scope was a Lecroy 9400 at work, 125Mhz bandwidth and so heavy...
Today we have two more 9300 models with advanced math functions at the start.
On their amber monitors, you can see what they measured umpteen years ago, even when they are switched off...

[joeqsmith]

Guessing this 4GHz 5 X cooling fans monster out weighs the 9400, just a little.  My picture tube has no burn marks which for a 35 year old DSO is surprising.  I am surprised every time I turn it on and the old MFM drive I bought used and hacked continues to boot! 

[KungFuJosh]

On their amber monitors, you can see what they measured umpteen years ago, even when they are switched off...

Which is an awesome feature if you need to reference old data. 😉😉

[coromonadalix]

took time to evaluate our needs, a beautiful SDS7404a   entered the shop this week,  around 32K$ CAD   with some negotiations  outch  loll

i'll update it to SDS7000A_V1.1.7.7.ADS  ...


still a small rant of the auto setup:  give us a choice of full auto and partial auto ...

fastboot silent,   love it       learning ....             

[joeqsmith]

took time to evaluate our needs, a beautiful SDS7404a   entered the shop this week,  around 32K$ CAD   with some negotiations  outch  loll
...

What options did you purchase with it?   

I had asked 2N3055 about running histograms on a PAM4 signal.   If you have the ability to run such a test, I am still interested in hearing what the results are.  See the following:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/help-on-finding-an-oscilloscope-that-can-display-zoomed-traces-when-rolling/msg5836103/#msg5836103

[tautech]

took time to evaluate our needs, a beautiful SDS7404a   entered the shop this week,  around 32K$ CAD   with some negotiations  outch  loll

i'll update it to SDS7000A_V1.1.7.7.ADS  ...


still a small rant of the auto setup:  give us a choice of full auto and partial auto ...

fastboot silent,   love it       learning ....             

Congrats.
Did you get the free PA option ?
https://siglentna.com/news-article/high-resolution-power-analysis-promotion/

[coromonadalix]

no ?   

updated to Siglent Technologies,SDS7404A H12,SDS7AA1Qxxxxxxxx,04.16.05.1.1.7.7   it was older 1.1.5.2

i think the LA option was added by this FW

just registered it   well see

[tautech]

no ?   

updated to Siglent Technologies,SDS7404A H12,SDS7AA1Qxxxxxxxx,04.16.05.1.1.7.7   it was older 1.1.5.2

i think the LA option was added by this FW

Yes, now standard in all Siglent DSO's. SPL2016 LA probe for this model.

Apply for the free PA option license here:
https://siglentna.com/promotion-registration/

[coromonadalix]

just did  i edited previous post   thks


Purchased from Electrometers in Montreal Canada, excellent service and presentation

[tv84]

For those that want to play with their new toy here's the parsing of the SDS7000A_V1.1.7.7.ADS.

Definitely a BIG file that even has a slave.ADS inside...  This slave file seems to be the usual FW update, and the bigger ADS is a full reflash of the BIOS/bootloader/OS.

So, the good old "nezha" has a Product_ID: 16701

I'll have a look inside zodiac.app. 

[points2]

took time to evaluate our needs, a beautiful SDS7404a   entered the shop this week,  around 32K$ CAD   with some negotiations  outch  loll
...

What options did you purchase with it?   

I had asked 2N3055 about running histograms on a PAM4 signal.   If you have the ability to run such a test, I am still interested in hearing what the results are.  See the following:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/help-on-finding-an-oscilloscope-that-can-display-zoomed-traces-when-rolling/msg5836103/#msg5836103

Hi joey & coromonadalix,
It's late and I'm tired, but I don't get this post :

@ Joey,
Is it relevant to use a SDS7000a to monitor a PAM4 signal, given that its BW is +/-4GHz ?
The SDS7000a is not able to keep up with the rise time of the PAM4 signal => ending to false measurements.
To me, only a sampling scope like the Gigawave or others are relevant... unless you have a trick to trigger a vry fast rise time with a low BW scope :-)

@ coromonadalix,
Can you tell us more about the signals you want to trigger with your SDS7000 ?
Especially, how fast are they at max ? I mean, what rise time of your signals ?

[coromonadalix]

well play  with  pico second, nano second, milli second pulses, we needed 20gig of sampling / channel   speed to do so
in the pico range we are around 45 pico sec rise time

the 3Ghz was our 1st pick,  but we wanted to be sure to catch them, that's why we choose the 4Ghz model, and well build a special SW around it

we were using an old Tek tds7254b 2.5Ghz at 20Giga sampling too to get some of them, you had to select high / def acquisition mode,   but as you know this old pup,  while working ok for it's age, has it's limit, mostly  memory length as you may guess, even an tds7404 was a plan B (now C) just in case  loll

Not to rant
In 2 years we have bought around 100K $ of Siglent stuff and including 2 x Rigol  (1 x100Mhz scope and 1x spectrum dsa815tg)

2x SSA3021x  1 of them may be returned for a X Plus model instead, waiting arrival   wrong order, need a VNA instead
3x SSG3021x  many tests in the -10db -70db signals
3x SDG1032x
2x SDS1104x

the new SDS7404A, with 500Megs passives probes, no need of actives ones, direct input at 50 ohms or 1 Meg

and other things, and all the others had upgrades, maybe sds7k too ?

[joeqsmith]

took time to evaluate our needs, a beautiful SDS7404a   entered the shop this week,  around 32K$ CAD   with some negotiations  outch  loll
...

What options did you purchase with it?   

I had asked 2N3055 about running histograms on a PAM4 signal.   If you have the ability to run such a test, I am still interested in hearing what the results are.  See the following:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/help-on-finding-an-oscilloscope-that-can-display-zoomed-traces-when-rolling/msg5836103/#msg5836103

Hi joey & coromonadalix,
It's late and I'm tired, but I don't get this post :

@ Joey,
Is it relevant to use a SDS7000a to monitor a PAM4 signal, given that its BW is +/-4GHz ?
The SDS7000a is not able to keep up with the rise time of the PAM4 signal => ending to false measurements.
To me, only a sampling scope like the Gigawave or others are relevant... unless you have a trick to trigger a vry fast rise time with a low BW scope :-)

@ coromonadalix,
Can you tell us more about the signals you want to trigger with your SDS7000 ?
Especially, how fast are they at max ? I mean, what rise time of your signals ?

@Poinsettia,
PAM defines a type of modulation, 4 is the discrete levels.  This does not define the data rates, physical layer.  If you took the time to read those posts, the PAM4 waveform I used had transitions around 1-2ns.  Symbol times were several ns.   Their 7000 typical rise time was a bit over 100ps,  which will easily measure these slow signals.   But, that's beside the point.  What I was asking was when using histograms and scope's built-in statistics to look at a signal that is not bi-modal, does it present correct results.  Does that make any sense?

[2N3055]

took time to evaluate our needs, a beautiful SDS7404a   entered the shop this week,  around 32K$ CAD   with some negotiations  outch  loll
...

What options did you purchase with it?   

I had asked 2N3055 about running histograms on a PAM4 signal.   If you have the ability to run such a test, I am still interested in hearing what the results are.  See the following:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/help-on-finding-an-oscilloscope-that-can-display-zoomed-traces-when-rolling/msg5836103/#msg5836103

Hi joey & coromonadalix,
It's late and I'm tired, but I don't get this post :

@ Joey,
Is it relevant to use a SDS7000a to monitor a PAM4 signal, given that its BW is +/-4GHz ?
The SDS7000a is not able to keep up with the rise time of the PAM4 signal => ending to false measurements.
To me, only a sampling scope like the Gigawave or others are relevant... unless you have a trick to trigger a vry fast rise time with a low BW scope :-)

@ coromonadalix,
Can you tell us more about the signals you want to trigger with your SDS7000 ?
Especially, how fast are they at max ? I mean, what rise time of your signals ?

@Poinsettia,
PAM defines a type of modulation, 4 is the discrete levels.  This does not define the data rates, physical layer.  If you took the time to read those posts, the PAM4 waveform I used had transitions around 1-2ns.  Symbol times were several ns.   Their 7000 typical rise time was a bit over 100ps,  which will easily measure these slow signals.   But, that's beside the point.  What I was asking was when using histograms and scope's built-in statistics to look at a signal that is not bi-modal, does it present correct results.  Does that make any sense?

Like I said, Histogram in  Analysis is separate from histicons in statistics. 
Of course it will show quaternal distribution on vertical histogram on a PAM4 modulated signal...
Even your 3000xHD can do that.

[joeqsmith]

took time to evaluate our needs, a beautiful SDS7404a   entered the shop this week,  around 32K$ CAD   with some negotiations  outch  loll
...

What options did you purchase with it?   

I had asked 2N3055 about running histograms on a PAM4 signal.   If you have the ability to run such a test, I am still interested in hearing what the results are.  See the following:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/help-on-finding-an-oscilloscope-that-can-display-zoomed-traces-when-rolling/msg5836103/#msg5836103

Hi joey & coromonadalix,
It's late and I'm tired, but I don't get this post :

@ Joey,
Is it relevant to use a SDS7000a to monitor a PAM4 signal, given that its BW is +/-4GHz ?
The SDS7000a is not able to keep up with the rise time of the PAM4 signal => ending to false measurements.
To me, only a sampling scope like the Gigawave or others are relevant... unless you have a trick to trigger a vry fast rise time with a low BW scope :-)

@ coromonadalix,
Can you tell us more about the signals you want to trigger with your SDS7000 ?
Especially, how fast are they at max ? I mean, what rise time of your signals ?

@Poinsettia,
PAM defines a type of modulation, 4 is the discrete levels.  This does not define the data rates, physical layer.  If you took the time to read those posts, the PAM4 waveform I used had transitions around 1-2ns.  Symbol times were several ns.   Their 7000 typical rise time was a bit over 100ps,  which will easily measure these slow signals.   But, that's beside the point.  What I was asking was when using histograms and scope's built-in statistics to look at a signal that is not bi-modal, does it present correct results.  Does that make any sense?

Like I said, Histogram in  Analysis is separate from histicons in statistics. 
Of course it will show quaternal distribution on vertical histogram on a PAM4 modulated signal...
Even your 3000xHD can do that.

Actually, it appears you never responded to my post until now.   When you ran this test, did you try both the analysis and measurement statistics?  I would hope both would show correct results.  When using the measurement statistics, did you select amplitude, or use a different measurement?

[2N3055]

took time to evaluate our needs, a beautiful SDS7404a   entered the shop this week,  around 32K$ CAD   with some negotiations  outch  loll
...

What options did you purchase with it?   

I had asked 2N3055 about running histograms on a PAM4 signal.   If you have the ability to run such a test, I am still interested in hearing what the results are.  See the following:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/help-on-finding-an-oscilloscope-that-can-display-zoomed-traces-when-rolling/msg5836103/#msg5836103

Hi joey & coromonadalix,
It's late and I'm tired, but I don't get this post :

@ Joey,
Is it relevant to use a SDS7000a to monitor a PAM4 signal, given that its BW is +/-4GHz ?
The SDS7000a is not able to keep up with the rise time of the PAM4 signal => ending to false measurements.
To me, only a sampling scope like the Gigawave or others are relevant... unless you have a trick to trigger a vry fast rise time with a low BW scope :-)

@ coromonadalix,
Can you tell us more about the signals you want to trigger with your SDS7000 ?
Especially, how fast are they at max ? I mean, what rise time of your signals ?

@Poinsettia,
PAM defines a type of modulation, 4 is the discrete levels.  This does not define the data rates, physical layer.  If you took the time to read those posts, the PAM4 waveform I used had transitions around 1-2ns.  Symbol times were several ns.   Their 7000 typical rise time was a bit over 100ps,  which will easily measure these slow signals.   But, that's beside the point.  What I was asking was when using histograms and scope's built-in statistics to look at a signal that is not bi-modal, does it present correct results.  Does that make any sense?

Like I said, Histogram in  Analysis is separate from histicons in statistics. 
Of course it will show quaternal distribution on vertical histogram on a PAM4 modulated signal...
Even your 3000xHD can do that.

Actually, it appears you never responded to my post until now.   When you ran this test, did you try both the analysis and measurement statistics?  I would hope both would show correct results.  When using the measurement statistics, did you select amplitude, or use a different measurement?

They would both show different results as they should.

Histogram analysis is histogram of the waveform. Histogram analysis has its own statistics...

Histicons in Measurement statistics are histogram of measurement values.
So you measure P-P value, create statistics of it, and then have histogram so you can see distribution how P-P value changed.

A histogram on a signal that would be equivalent of PAM8 modulation   (yes I need coffee, because I cannot aparently count to 8.) 

As I said, you can test that on SDS3000xHD.

Best,

[2N3055]

So, to be clear, you enable all four channels. 
Select the 4X2 grid. 
Drag CH1 - CH4 to separate graphs with the mouse (5 graphs now populated). 
Hide CH1 - 4 (which turns off the first graph with all four displayed but leaves the others active).
Then select 4X1 grid and the scope cleans it all up for you.

If not, please define the steps.   

I moved discussion here...

I enable 4x1 view.
I create CH1, CH2, CH3 and F1.
I press hide in CH2 CH3 (bottom status bar).

From the bottom status bar, I drag CH2, CH3 and F1 icons to window 2, 3 and 4.

[joeqsmith]

So, to be clear, you enable all four channels. 
Select the 4X2 grid. 
Drag CH1 - CH4 to separate graphs with the mouse (5 graphs now populated). 
Hide CH1 - 4 (which turns off the first graph with all four displayed but leaves the others active).
Then select 4X1 grid and the scope cleans it all up for you.

If not, please define the steps.   

I moved discussion here...

I enable 4x1 view.
I create CH1, CH2, CH3 and F1.
I press hide in CH2 CH3 (bottom status bar).

From the bottom status bar, I drag CH2, CH3 and F1 icons to window 2, 3 and 4.

That makes sense.  So if you have it setup this same way, and turn off CH3.  Now turn it back on, does it show up in the graph you dragged it to, or does it only show up in the first graph?  Do you have to repeat the hide/drag?   

***Also, if you have the 7000 all setup as you show, you can always save the setup and reload it.  I think that the Gigawave had a special setup that would automatically load on boot.  Does the 7000 have something similar?   



For the histogram, I just need to bring home one of the 3000s and spend some time with it.  Problem with that, I may have to buy one for home...   
***
Looking at your PAM8 test ramp, I would expect 8 peaks in the histogram, each with some gaussian distribution. 
***
Oh wait, its off to the left.   Ok, this makes much more sense!

[2N3055]

So, to be clear, you enable all four channels. 
Select the 4X2 grid. 
Drag CH1 - CH4 to separate graphs with the mouse (5 graphs now populated). 
Hide CH1 - 4 (which turns off the first graph with all four displayed but leaves the others active).
Then select 4X1 grid and the scope cleans it all up for you.

If not, please define the steps.   

I moved discussion here...

I enable 4x1 view.
I create CH1, CH2, CH3 and F1.
I press hide in CH2 CH3 (bottom status bar).

From the bottom status bar, I drag CH2, CH3 and F1 icons to window 2, 3 and 4.

That makes sense.  So if you have it setup this same way, and turn off CH3.  Now turn it back on, does it show up in the graph you dragged it to, or does it only show up in the first graph?  Do you have to repeat the hide/drag?   

***Also, if you have the 7000 all setup as you show, you can always save the setup and reload it.  I think that the Gigawave had a special setup that would automatically load on boot.  Does the 7000 have something similar?   

For the histogram, I just need to bring home one of the 3000s and spend some time with it.  Problem with that, I may have to buy one for home...   
***
Looking at your PAM8 test ramp, I would expect 8 peaks in the histogram, each with some gaussian distribution. 
***
Oh wait, its off to the left.   Ok, this makes much more sense!

Any channel that is turned Off or On does that in first window only ( and second if Zoom is there). So if you have some CH shown  in first window, and then drag it to secondary one, you are making a copy. So you can have it in both windows or you can hide it in first one...
Some things are automatic, for instance math and memory channels will go into secondary windows automatically. Only hardware channels are always all in the first window unless you hide the traces there. Zoom behaves the same in 2nd window.

Like I said, it is not very elaborate at the moment.
But generally speaking, you can get the work done right now, with few additional clicks.
Work is underway on this but can't really share what and when will be available. But they are aware it is not perfect and this will get much better in the future...

That includes your questions about automatic layout, saving layouts, etc etc...
This platform is in active development. Every now and then firmware updates bring significant new capabilities and optimizations..

Glad I could be of help to untangle histogram confusion...

[joeqsmith]

Your comments have been a big help.

Regarding your PAM8 test,  if you were to trigger on the center of each step and zoom in to where you see a discrete horizontal line representing each state, the histogram would show all 8 states.  See attached image showing the PAM4 (persistence on for aesthetics).  Default settings with max, top & peak.   I would assume it would be similar with your Siglent. 

Any channel that is turned Off or On does that in first window only ( and second if Zoom is there). So if you have some CH shown  in first window, and then drag it to secondary one, you are making a copy. So you can have it in both windows or you can hide it in first one...

That's interesting.  I would expect that when you turn off a channel, it's off every place it is used, not just the first window. 

[tautech]

Here we have a screenshot showing the trigger is set to Ch2 yet there is no indication of Ch2 on the display.
Is it hidden and why is there no channel tab indicating is an active but hidden channel ?

[Martin72]

Siglent's hiding function is great, and I was very happy at the time that this suggestion was quickly implemented.
I knew it from Lecroy, but Lecroy brought it to perfection.
You can show/hide the channels by using the corresponding buttons as if you were turning them on/off.
If no other function (trigger, math, etc.) is accessing the channel, it is actually off, otherwise it is “hidden”.
I find that a touch more elegant.
Just like the ERES function in the channel menu...

[joeqsmith]

Here we have a screenshot showing the trigger is set to Ch2 yet there is no indication of Ch2 on the display.
Is it hidden and why is there no channel tab indicating is an active but hidden channel ?

Correct, Ch2 is the trigger per:  "...  if you were to trigger on the center of each step ...".   Yes it is hidden as to not distract from the Ch1 data.   As for why LeCroy chose to hide the tab when the channels are hidden, I would assume by design.  Personally, I would not want that information on the screen, or I would have it active.  But that's my preference.   I guess it would not break my heart one way or the other outside of burning up space. 

[2N3055]

Your comments have been a big help.

Regarding your PAM8 test,  if you were to trigger on the center of each step and zoom in to where you see a discrete horizontal line representing each state, the histogram would show all 8 states.  See attached image showing the PAM4 (persistence on for aesthetics).  Default settings with max, top & peak.   I would assume it would be similar with your Siglent. 

Any channel that is turned Off or On does that in first window only ( and second if Zoom is there). So if you have some CH shown  in first window, and then drag it to secondary one, you are making a copy. So you can have it in both windows or you can hide it in first one...

That's interesting.  I would expect that when you turn off a channel, it's off every place it is used, not just the first window.

Like I said, no problem. Glad to help.

Absolutely it will show what you expect.
See image.


I am sorry I misspoke. Not channel "Turn OFF" but "Hide". You can have chanel active but hide waveform. That is what I meant. My English is what it is. Sorry.

[joeqsmith]

Siglent's hiding function is great, and I was very happy at the time that this suggestion was quickly implemented.
I knew it from Lecroy, but Lecroy brought it to perfection.
...

I tend to agree.  Their UI seems very well thought out.  Most things require few key strokes to get setup.  Then again, I have been using their products for some time. 

[joeqsmith]

Regarding your PAM8 test,  if you were to trigger on the center of each step and zoom in to where you see a discrete horizontal line representing each state, the histogram would show all 8 states.  See attached image showing the PAM4 (persistence on for aesthetics).  Default settings with max, top & peak.   I would assume it would be similar with your Siglent. 

Absolutely it will show what you expect.
See image.

No problem on the english, spelling or other.  We can easily clarify with a simple question here and there.   

When I look at your original upload, I would have assumed that we would see each state having an equal distribution.  Mine is a Fibonacci quasi random number which is not equal.   Can you please explain why you are not seeing an equal distribution?  If you widen the bins does it settle out?

[2N3055]

Regarding your PAM8 test,  if you were to trigger on the center of each step and zoom in to where you see a discrete horizontal line representing each state, the histogram would show all 8 states.  See attached image showing the PAM4 (persistence on for aesthetics).  Default settings with max, top & peak.   I would assume it would be similar with your Siglent. 

Absolutely it will show what you expect.
See image.

No problem on the english, spelling or other.  We can easily clarify with a simple question here and there.   

When I look at your original upload, I would have assumed that we would see each state having an equal distribution.  Mine is a Fibonacci quasi random number which is not equal.   Can you please explain why you are not seeing an equal distribution?  If you widen the bins does it settle out?

I am not sure exactly, probably some  combination of ringing on the steps and interaction of scope retrigger time with repetition of ARB signal cycle (pattern frequency).

If I setup ARB with linear interpolation and change to different frequency, I get this, which looks like much more uniform distribution. I would point out that Histogram analysis (blue vertical histogram) here shows quite nice distribution.

At this point, histogram binning is automatic. No manual control. If it had manual control on bin size on histicons, I could widen the bins slightly to combine those local peaks. You can see how it would nicely combine to very uniform distribution...

As I said, blue waveform histogram shows it better in this case.
I am sure you know very well that many times you need to tinker with the settings sometimes to get best results..

[joeqsmith]

I brought a 3000 home to try and replicate some of what you have shown.    One thing I find annoying is how the zoomed histograms horizontal axis toggles between volts and mV.  See attached. 

I am using the FLASH stick to transfer the data to the PC.  If I unplug it and plug it back in, I have to tell the scope ever time to point to the stick.  Surely there is a way to tell it to save to the stick if it is present. 

When using the vertical histogram, I could not find a way to change the color from blue.  I set the Ch1 intensity to 1% to get enough contrast to see the histogram plot.  Is there some way to get better contrast?

Another thing I don't like about this UI is that they hide menus off the screen and you have to use the mouse to find them.  For example, to display the X & Y axis units on the main graph.  After fumbling for 10 minutes, I turn the manual.   It's clear about the display menu axis label.   I missed it because it is off the screen and you have to scroll down with the mouse to find it.   Again, I think if you used the scope all the time, eventually you know all the ins and outs of the UI.  From a noobs perspective, simple things keep hanging me up.   

[joeqsmith]

Shown next to my daily driver.   It runs cooler, quieter, lower noise, mechanics appear much more solid.   That 3054 or 3104 with some improved software and a larger display would make for a nice replacement.     

[tautech]

I brought a 3000 home to try and replicate some of what you have shown. ..........

I'm using the FLASH stick to transfer the data to the PC.  If I unplug it and plug it back in, I have to tell the scope ever time to point to the stick.  Surely there is a way to tell it to save to the stick if it is present. 

In the Utility/Save menu you have 'save to a destination' functionality.
However when a USB stick is fitted and you get OSD (popup message) that it is, using the front panel Save button should by default save the PNG screenshot to USB with a single press of the Save button.

[Martin72]

That 3054 or 3104 with some improved software and a larger display would make for a nice replacement.     

https://www.siglent.com/products-overview/sds5000x-hd/

 

[joeqsmith]

I brought a 3000 home to try and replicate some of what you have shown. ..........

I'm using the FLASH stick to transfer the data to the PC.  If I unplug it and plug it back in, I have to tell the scope ever time to point to the stick.  Surely there is a way to tell it to save to the stick if it is present. 

In the Utility/Save menu you have 'save to a destination' functionality.
However when a USB stick is fitted and you get OSD (popup message) that it is, using the front panel Save button should by default save the PNG screenshot to USB with a single press of the Save button.

Odd.  I unplug the stick and plug it back in.  As soon as it was detected, I once again unplugged it then plugged it back in.  The mouse hung but the scope continued to collect.  Eventually the mouse came back but it would not find the stick.  I stopped the data collection to see if I was taxing the scope but it did not help.  Going to file manager, it would still not find the stick.  I reinserted it several more times but it failed to detect it.  Plug it into the PC and all is well.  This is the same stick I use with my other scopes.   

I had a very old 2G stick.  I tried that with the Siglent and it IDs every time very quickly.   I think what was happening is it was taking a long time to detect the other stick.  I normally expect to plug it in and hit save.  I suspect going to the file manager gave it enough time to detect the stick. 

With the old 2G stick, it works as I would expect.  Plug it in, hit save and it saves to stick.   

[joeqsmith]

That 3054 or 3104 with some improved software and a larger display would make for a nice replacement.     

https://www.siglent.com/products-overview/sds5000x-hd/

 

That appears to be a much better fit.  Maybe by the time it is available in the USA, they will have the multi-grid software sorted out. 

[tautech]

I brought a 3000 home to try and replicate some of what you have shown. ..........

I'm using the FLASH stick to transfer the data to the PC.  If I unplug it and plug it back in, I have to tell the scope ever time to point to the stick.  Surely there is a way to tell it to save to the stick if it is present. 

In the Utility/Save menu you have 'save to a destination' functionality.
However when a USB stick is fitted and you get OSD (popup message) that it is, using the front panel Save button should by default save the PNG screenshot to USB with a single press of the Save button.

Odd.  I unplug the stick and plug it back in.  As soon as it was detected, I once again unplugged it then plugged it back in.  The mouse hung but the scope continued to collect.  Eventually the mouse came back but it would not find the stick.  I stopped the data collection to see if I was taxing the scope but it did not help.  Going to file manager, it would still not find the stick.  I reinserted it several more times but it failed to detect it.  Plug it into the PC and all is well.  This is the same stick I use with my other scopes.   

I had a very old 2G stick.  I tried that with the Siglent and it IDs every time very quickly.   I think what was happening is it was taking a long time to detect the other stick.  I normally expect to plug it in and hit save.  I suspect going to the file manager gave it enough time to detect the stick. 

With the old 2G stick, it works as I would expect.  Plug it in, hit save and it saves to stick.

Size ?
File format ?

16GB sticks can give issues in some models but 8&32GB are okay if FAT32. but should be no USB issues with a PC based scope.

[joeqsmith]

Size ?
File format ?

16GB sticks can give issues in some models but 8&32GB are okay if FAT32. but should be no USB issues with a PC based scope.

32G, NTFS

Scope was able to ID the drive and save files to it, but it does seem to cause problems when using it with this scope. 

***
Stick is marked USB 3.0.  IDs as:

Device Descriptor
 USB version: 2.10
 Device class: 0x0 - (Defined at Interface level)
 Device subclass: 0x0 - Unknown
 Device protocol: 0x0 - Unknown
 Control pipe max size: 64 bytes
 Vendor ID: 0x90c (Silicon Motion, Inc. - Taiwan (formerly Feiya Technology Corp.))
 Product ID: 0x1000 (Flash Drive)
 Product version: 17.0
 Manufacturer: SMI Corporation
 Product: Not specified
 Serial Number: Not specified
 Configurations: 1
descriptors[0] = "Configuration Descriptor"
bLength = 9
bDescriptorType = USB_CONFIGURATION_DESCRIPTOR_TYPE (2)
wTotalLength = 32
bNumInterfaces = 1
bConfigurationValue = 1
iConfiguration = 0
Reserved = 0
SupportsRemoteWakeup = 0
SelfPowered = 0
PoweredByBus = 1
MaxPower = 0xfa -> 500 mA

[KungFuJosh]

Size ?
File format ?

16GB sticks can give issues in some models but 8&32GB are okay if FAT32. but should be no USB issues with a PC based scope.

32G, NTFS

I'm surprised it worked at all with NTFS, they must have done something to add support? It should be some version of FAT if you want it to work better. I use Sandisk Ultra Fit 32GB drives in all my TE without any issues, but always FAT. I format them with SDFormatter utility.

[tautech]

Size ?
File format ?

16GB sticks can give issues in some models but 8&32GB are okay if FAT32. but should be no USB issues with a PC based scope.

32G, NTFS

Scope was able to ID the drive and save files to it, but it does seem to cause problems when using it with this scope. 

***
Stick is marked USB 3.0.  IDs as:

Device Descriptor
 USB version: 2.10
 Device class: 0x0 - (Defined at Interface level)
 Device subclass: 0x0 - Unknown
 Device protocol: 0x0 - Unknown
 Control pipe max size: 64 bytes
 Vendor ID: 0x90c (Silicon Motion, Inc. - Taiwan (formerly Feiya Technology Corp.))
 Product ID: 0x1000 (Flash Drive)
 Product version: 17.0
 Manufacturer: SMI Corporation
 Product: Not specified
 Serial Number: Not specified
 Configurations: 1
descriptors[0] = "Configuration Descriptor"
bLength = 9
bDescriptorType = USB_CONFIGURATION_DESCRIPTOR_TYPE (2)
wTotalLength = 32
bNumInterfaces = 1
bConfigurationValue = 1
iConfiguration = 0
Reserved = 0
SupportsRemoteWakeup = 0
SelfPowered = 0
PoweredByBus = 1
MaxPower = 0xfa -> 500 mA

From the SDS3000X HD User manual:
6.3.3 USB Peripherals
Connect a USB storage device (FAT32 format recommended) to one of the USB host ports for data
transfer, or connect a USB mouse/keyboard to one of the USB host ports for controlling the instrument.
See chapter “Save/Recall” for details of data transfer.

SDS7000A does not have USB recommendations, only this:
37.2. File Manager
The SDS7000A's file manager has a similar style and operation to the Windows© operating systems.

Which would indicate it would have no issues with NTFS.....

[2N3055]

Siglent's hiding function is great, and I was very happy at the time that this suggestion was quickly implemented.
I knew it from Lecroy, but Lecroy brought it to perfection.
You can show/hide the channels by using the corresponding buttons as if you were turning them on/off.
If no other function (trigger, math, etc.) is accessing the channel, it is actually off, otherwise it is “hidden”.
I find that a touch more elegant.
Just like the ERES function in the channel menu...

When used for trigger, it still needs to have all the settings set right.
When channel is active and hidden it will still use memory and halve the sampling rate.
It is fully active, except no drawing. Everything else is on and working, math, measurements etc.., using full resources.
Showing channel as active is actually the truth.

Having it  completely hidden sometimes leaves user scratching their heads.....
Advanced users that are familiar with the scope keep all that stuff in their head and it feels obvious.
I think there is no universal "best" answer here.

[Martin72]

And I find it irritating when the channel box is still visible on the screen and a small “H” indicates that the channel is still there.
But that's probably because I've been used to it differently for years.
Either way, hiding is an excellent feature; I sometimes find it terrible when other scope brands show everything because then there's too much going on.

[2N3055]

And I find it irritating when the channel box is still visible on the screen and a small “H” indicates that the channel is still there.
But that's probably because I've been used to it differently for years.
Either way, hiding is an excellent feature; I sometimes find it terrible when other scope brands show everything because then there's too much going on.

Like I said, advanced user, fully familiar to the scope, will have many things "in their head" and will need no "crutches" and will favour fully optimized situation.

The rest will be just confused and "why is this stupid scope not let me set sample rate higher.. I have only one channel on... Look, here, only one... Shit, full of bugs.." 

There are many people that find LeCroy scopes confusing and don't like them. Go figure..


And now something completely different.
I took small 4GB stick an formatted it NTFS.

7000A, 6000A, 800xHD, 2000xHD, 3000xHD detects it no problem and reads/writes no problem.

[joeqsmith]

If there is as problem using different formats, I would expect the manual to state  FAT32 format required rather than recommended.   The 2G stick that works fine with the 3000 is formatted FAT.   

Device Descriptor
 USB version: 2.0
 Device class: 0x0 - (Defined at Interface level)
 Device subclass: 0x0 - Unknown
 Device protocol: 0x0 - Unknown
 Control pipe max size: 64 bytes
 Vendor ID: 0x930 (Toshiba Corp.)
 Product ID: 0x6544 (TransMemory-Mini / Kingston DataTraveler 2.0 Stick)
 Product version: 1.0
 Manufacturer:         
 Product: USB Flash Memory
 Serial Number: 001CC0EC34C7C020469506DB
 Configurations: 1
bLength = 9
bDescriptorType = USB_CONFIGURATION_DESCRIPTOR_TYPE (2)
wTotalLength = 32
bNumInterfaces = 1
bConfigurationValue = 1
iConfiguration = 0
Reserved = 0
SupportsRemoteWakeup = 0
SelfPowered = 0
PoweredByBus = 1
MaxPower = 0x32 -> 100 mA

Siglent's hiding function is great, and I was very happy at the time that this suggestion was quickly implemented.
I knew it from Lecroy, but Lecroy brought it to perfection.
You can show/hide the channels by using the corresponding buttons as if you were turning them on/off.
If no other function (trigger, math, etc.) is accessing the channel, it is actually off, otherwise it is “hidden”.
I find that a touch more elegant.
Just like the ERES function in the channel menu...

When used for trigger, it still needs to have all the settings set right.
When channel is active and hidden it will still use memory and halve the sampling rate.
It is fully active, except no drawing. Everything else is on and working, math, measurements etc.., using full resources.
Showing channel as active is actually the truth.

Having it  completely hidden sometimes leaves user scratching their heads.....
Advanced users that are familiar with the scope keep all that stuff in their head and it feels obvious.
I think there is no universal "best" answer here.

The screen shot I showed, you can clearly see the hidden channel is active and being used for the trigger.   It was not completely hidden.  More, just not a distraction. 

[KungFuJosh]

Whether you consider speed a problem or not is the question. Take the NTFS flash drive and format it FAT32 and see if it detects it faster.

[joeqsmith]

Whether you consider speed a problem or not is the question. Take the NTFS flash drive and format it FAT32 and see if it detects it faster.

I guess I was not clear.  Once the scope failed to ID that stick and I turned off the data collection to try and give up more processing power, I had left the stick plugged in for at least 10 seconds.

Turning the scope on today with the problematic stick inserted prior, it detects it.   With the collection turned off, I can reinsert the stick and it is having no problems detecting it.  It takes about 6 seconds which is fine.  When I tried to save a screenshot, once again the mouse stops responding for several seconds.  Eventually it returns and the image is saved.  I plug the stick back in and now it detects it in about 2 seconds.   I start collecting data and press save.  Again, the mouse hangs.  As before it eventually comes back and the image is again saved.  I save several screens in a row, the mouse never hangs.   All data is written correctly.   I use this stick today and see if I can get the scope to not detect it again. 

It may not be the stick but CPU just not having enough processing power.  We saw this when running the roll test where moving the mouse causes the sampling to jitter. 

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/help-on-finding-an-oscilloscope-that-can-display-zoomed-traces-when-rolling/msg5817243/#msg5817243

A second video after Tautech requested the same settings on both scopes.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/help-on-finding-an-oscilloscope-that-can-display-zoomed-traces-when-rolling/msg5818377/#msg5818377

The worst I have seen so far was I had left the stick inserted and left the scope running for about an hour.   I then selected save.  The mouse and screen locked up for about 18-20 seconds.  It then saved the data.  Really odd.   

[joeqsmith]

I am not liking the how the measurements do not automatically pack to the left.  Say you have four consecutive measurements added from left to right.  You remove the second measurement.  I would expect it to move the third and fourth measurements to the second and third places.   

[KungFuJosh]

Whether you consider speed a problem or not is the question. Take the NTFS flash drive and format it FAT32 and see if it detects it faster.

I guess I was not clear.  Once the scope failed to ID that stick and I turned off the data collection to try and give up more processing power, I had left the stick plugged in for at least 10 seconds.

My point was that FAT is more universally compatible, and generally requires less resources. I'm curious if you do the same tests with the same stick, but FAT32 formatted how it responds. I assume better, but only testing will tell.

[joeqsmith]

Whether you consider speed a problem or not is the question. Take the NTFS flash drive and format it FAT32 and see if it detects it faster.

I guess I was not clear.  Once the scope failed to ID that stick and I turned off the data collection to try and give up more processing power, I had left the stick plugged in for at least 10 seconds.

My point was that FAT is more universally compatible, and generally requires less resources. I'm curious if you do the same tests with the same stick, but FAT32 formatted how it responds. I assume better, but only testing will tell.

How to solve a murder 101, start by destroying the body.    

I did attempt to replicate what I saw with the stick inserted and the scope running, left for some time.   After about a half hour I again pressed save.  Once again, the mouse locked up but not the data collection.  This time for about 12 seconds before it saved the data.  It's pretty odd. 

I have a different brand  32G stick.  I just formatted it to Fat32 and installed it into the 3000.  Oddly enough, it took about 40 seconds to detect the fresh stick.  I then tried to save and again it stalled for about 12 seconds.   Guessing this is not an NTFS format problem but maybe it doesn't like the sticks I have or they have too high capacity.     It likes that old 2G FAT stick. 

[KungFuJosh]

I have a different brand  32G stick.  I just formatted it to Fat32 and installed it into the 3000.  Oddly enough, it took about 40 seconds to detect the fresh stick.  I then tried to save and again it stalled for about 12 seconds.   Guessing this is not an NTFS format problem but maybe it doesn't like the sticks I have or they have too high capacity.     It likes that old 2G FAT stick.

They (at least historically) prefer drives 8GB or below.

The NTFS vs. FAT32 test only works if you're using the same flash drive. Once you switch brands/models, there are other factors to consider.

[joeqsmith]

I have a different brand  32G stick.  I just formatted it to Fat32 and installed it into the 3000.  Oddly enough, it took about 40 seconds to detect the fresh stick.  I then tried to save and again it stalled for about 12 seconds.   Guessing this is not an NTFS format problem but maybe it doesn't like the sticks I have or they have too high capacity.     It likes that old 2G FAT stick.

They (at least historically) prefer drives 8GB or below.

The NTFS vs. FAT32 test only works if you're using the same flash drive. Once you switch brands/models, there are other factors to consider.

Of course I was introducing a new set of variables.  Wasn't it obvious I wanted to know if it was unique to my one stick?   

Odd such a new product would not consider larger sticks.  Quick search on Google, sub-search doesn't list parts below 16G.  Time to stock pile vintage sticks to support Siglent products?   

[KungFuJosh]

Of course I was introducing a new set of variables.  Wasn't it obvious I wanted to know if it was unique to my one stick?   

lol, I wanted you to try FAT32 on the same stick for the same reason. 😉

Odd such a new product would not consider larger sticks.  Quick search on Google, sub-search doesn't list parts below 16G.  Time to stock pile vintage sticks to support Siglent products?

It's not just the size. Compatibility is goofy...probably because of the inconsistent quality of flash drives.

I've been using the Sandisk Ultra Fit 32GB cards on all my TE without any issues for years. Siglent, Hioki, Keysight, Keithley, TongHui/SourceTronic, etc. Many of them claim they need smaller size drives, but those have always worked for me when formatted FAT32.

[joeqsmith]

It's not just the size. Compatibility is goofy...probably because of the inconsistent quality of flash drives.

I've been using the Sandisk Ultra Fit 32GB cards on all my TE without any issues for years. Siglent, Hioki, Keysight, Keithley, TongHui/SourceTronic, etc. Many of them claim they need smaller size drives, but those have always worked for me when formatted FAT32.

Do you have a 3000X HD you can test it with?   If so we should be able to replicate this fairly easily as  I have one which is formatted FAT32 that I can try. 

***
Left to right,  Sandisk Ultra 32G,  EMTEC 32G,  Kingston DataTraveler  2G, Silicon Motion 32G

The scope appears to detect the Sandisk much faster than the other two 32G sticks.  It does not seem to cause the brief lockup problems I experience when using the other two.   The scope appears to detect the Kingston stick the fastest of the four.   

***

It reads as follows:

Device Descriptor
 USB version: 2.10
 Device class: 0x0 - (Defined at Interface level)
 Device subclass: 0x0 - Unknown
 Device protocol: 0x0 - Unknown
 Control pipe max size: 64 bytes
 Vendor ID: 0x781 (SanDisk Corp.)
 Product ID: 0x5581 (Ultra)
 Product version: 1.0
 Manufacturer: SanDisk
 Product: Ultra
 Serial Number: 4C531001401115104450
 Configurations: 1
descriptors[0] = "Configuration Descriptor"
bLength = 9
bDescriptorType = USB_CONFIGURATION_DESCRIPTOR_TYPE (2)
wTotalLength = 32
bNumInterfaces = 1
bConfigurationValue = 1
iConfiguration = 0
Reserved = 0
SupportsRemoteWakeup = 0
SelfPowered = 0
PoweredByBus = 1
MaxPower = 0x70 -> 224 mA

[KungFuJosh]

Do you have a 3000X HD you can test it with?

Not yet? 😉

Your results don't surprise me. The two name brands outperformed the generic ones, and the smaller capacity drive won.

[tautech]

I scored just a few Siglent branded USB sticks..... 32GB FAT32 and IIRC in 16kB clusters and everything I've used them in thus far has worked just fine.
Not tested in everything just yet.....saving it for a rainy day.

[joeqsmith]

Your results don't surprise me. The two name brands outperformed the generic ones, and the smaller capacity drive won.

What surprises me, and why I initially posted is that Silicon Motion 32G has been used with my LeCroy scopes since I bought the stick.  It has never given me any problems.  My scopes are now about 18 years old,  both running XP.  I would have thought if anything, a modern scope would be even more compatible with various peripherals like these sticks. 

[KungFuJosh]

What surprises me, and why I initially posted is that Silicon Motion 32G has been used with my LeCroy scopes since I bought the stick.  It has never given me any problems.  My scopes are now about 18 years old,  both running XP.  I would have thought if anything, a modern scope would be even more compatible with various peripherals like these sticks.

That doesn't surprise me either. Those are Windows native scopes. NTFS is Windows native, specifically made for Windows. Adding NTFS drivers/support to other OSs is why you see those issues. I used to have to add drivers and an app when I needed to use NTFS with my MacBook (Unix based). Same is true for Linux based systems- support had to be added as it (at least historically) wasn't natively supported. I think in 2021 Linux kernel 5.15 added native support for NTFS, but how that applies to custom Linux OS stuff like in these scopes is a different question.

[joeqsmith]

What surprises me, and why I initially posted is that Silicon Motion 32G has been used with my LeCroy scopes since I bought the stick.  It has never given me any problems.  My scopes are now about 18 years old,  both running XP.  I would have thought if anything, a modern scope would be even more compatible with various peripherals like these sticks.

That doesn't surprise me either. Those are Windows native scopes. NTFS is Windows native, specifically made for Windows. Adding NTFS drivers/support to other OSs is why you see those issues. I used to have to add drivers and an app when I needed to use NTFS with my MacBook (Unix based). Same is true for Linux based systems- support had to be added as it (at least historically) wasn't natively supported. I think in 2021 Linux kernel 5.15 added native support for NTFS, but how that applies to custom Linux OS stuff like in these scopes is a different question.

As I previously wrote:

If there is as problem using different formats, I would expect the manual to state  FAT32 format required rather than recommended. 

Otherwise, I am expecting the scope to handle all the basic Windows formats.

I was going to allow the scope to format one of the problematic sticks and see if that improved things, but it does not appear to support formatting.   

***
I would check the scopes built-in help but I need to learn how to read Chinese first.   

[KungFuJosh]

As I previously wrote:

If there is as problem using different formats, I would expect the manual to state  FAT32 format required rather than recommended. 

Otherwise, I am expecting the scope to handle all the basic Windows formats.

I was going to allow the scope to format one of the problematic sticks and see if that improved things, but it does not appear to support formatting.   

It does handle it, but that doesn't mean it will be as fast as FAT32. NTFS was created specifically for Windows, so any other OS has to add resources to support it. Does it work? Yes. Will it work as fast as FAT32? Probably not. At least not yet. They might improve it. Maybe somebody on the beta team can report that it's very slow compared to FAT32.

I recommend using the SDCard Formatter utility. It's usually the best option in this situation.

I would check the scopes built-in help but I need to learn how to read Chinese first.   

I studied Chinese intensively in college, but my (lack of) reading skills wouldn't help there either. 🤣

[joeqsmith]

As I previously wrote:

If there is as problem using different formats, I would expect the manual to state  FAT32 format required rather than recommended. 

Otherwise, I am expecting the scope to handle all the basic Windows formats.

I was going to allow the scope to format one of the problematic sticks and see if that improved things, but it does not appear to support formatting.   

It does handle it, but that doesn't mean it will be as fast as FAT32. NTFS was created specifically for Windows, so any other OS has to add resources to support it. Does it work? Yes. Will it work as fast as FAT32? Probably not. At least not yet. They might improve it. Maybe somebody on the beta team can report that it's very slow compared to FAT32.

I recommend using the SDCard Formatter utility. It's usually the best option in this situation.

I would check the scopes built-in help but I need to learn how to read Chinese first.   

I studied Chinese intensively in college, but my (lack of) reading skills wouldn't help there either. 🤣

That gets down to how you personally define "works".   Does it eventually unlock the mouse, resume data collection and save the file,  then yes, it does work.  Again, FAT32 on a different 32G stick was very slow.  I think you are hung up on NTFS being the problem.  I can't say that for sure. 

The PC can format the sticks.  Windows has supported them for some time.  I was more curious if I used the scope's built-in file support to setup the sticks, would it improve.  Sadly, they don't support this. 

My plan is to try some other devices as well.  Maybe a mechanical HDD or larger M.2 stick. 

[tv84]

USB sticks handling in Siglent and Rigol stuff is something of a "dark science" that I suspect we'll never fully understand.

We'll have to wait for the singularity moment when a machine reveals the error we've all been making.

[KungFuJosh]

That gets down to how you personally define "works".   Does it eventually unlock the mouse, resume data collection and save the file,  then yes, it does work.  Again, FAT32 on a different 32G stick was very slow.  I think you are hung up on NTFS being the problem.  I can't say that for sure. 

Comparing another stick is not helpful. You have to eliminate the hardware/chipset/etc. differences between the two sticks to test the file system.

The only way to accurately compare NTFS vs FAT32 is to use the exact same drive formatted each way. You can't eliminate the file system as the problem without testing it properly. If you don't see a speed difference, then you know it's not the file system. However, I suspect you will see a difference. I could be wrong, but we'll never know if you don't test it. 🤷

[tv84]

Comparing another stick is not helpful. You have to eliminate the hardware/chipset/etc. differences between the two sticks to test the file system.

Many eons ago when I was actively analyzing Siglent FW, I tried to compile a table of USB sticks' controller chips that worked OK/NOK. Unfortunately, the movement didn't gain enough traction...

Today, as we've seen in all these latest different OSes, CPUs and programming frameworks, the problems continue which reinforce my opinion (of those days) that this is all timings problems and how to correctly deal with the time constraints of the several USB controllers that the sticks possess. I assume the USB port dialog continue to be in the low priorities for a scope's CPU...

Another theory I had at the time was: these vendors were using special sectors on the USB disks to allow "special vendor operations" in the machine. As such, every disk/size was accessed in a way that probably not all of them liked, in order for the system to detect if that was a "vendor disk". And that detection routine triggered the non recognition of the drives... I wonder how many of that original source code is still in today's SDS7000A code...

[KungFuJosh]

Comparing another stick is not helpful. You have to eliminate the hardware/chipset/etc. differences between the two sticks to test the file system.

Many eons ago when I was actively analyzing Siglent FW, I tried to compile a table of USB sticks' controller chips that worked OK/NOK. Unfortunately, the movement didn't gain enough traction...

Today, as we've seen in all these latest different OSes, CPUs and programming frameworks, the problems continue which reinforce my opinion (of those days) that this is all timings problems and how to correctly deal with the time constraints of the several USB controllers that the sticks possess. I assume the USB port dialog continue to be in the low priorities for a scope's CPU...

Another theory I had at the time was: these vendors were using special sectors on the USB disks to allow "special vendor operations" in the machine. As such, every disk/size was accessed in a way that probably not all of them liked, in order for the system to detect if that was a "vendor disk". And that detection routine triggered the non recognition of the drives... I wonder how many of that original source code is still in today's SDS7000A code...

I'm sure you're onto something there. From a hardware perspective it's silly at this point to have any issues (though some flash drives are trash regardless, and there will likely always be some with problems). How clunky the scope manufacturer's coding copypasta skill is becomes the question. 😉

[joeqsmith]

That gets down to how you personally define "works".   Does it eventually unlock the mouse, resume data collection and save the file,  then yes, it does work.  Again, FAT32 on a different 32G stick was very slow.  I think you are hung up on NTFS being the problem.  I can't say that for sure. 

Comparing another stick is not helpful. You have to eliminate the hardware/chipset/etc. differences between the two sticks to test the file system.

The only way to accurately compare NTFS vs FAT32 is to use the exact same drive formatted each way. You can't eliminate the file system as the problem without testing it properly. If you don't see a speed difference, then you know it's not the file system. However, I suspect you will see a difference. I could be wrong, but we'll never know if you don't test it. 🤷

While running these different combinations may not be helpful to you personally, it is helpful for me.   I am getting a feel for Siglent's compatibility.  The goal is not to do Siglent's job for them but educate myself.   I don't mind posting the details of what I have done, as it may save others the trouble.   

Many eons ago when I was actively analyzing Siglent FW, I tried to compile a table of USB sticks' controller chips that worked OK/NOK. Unfortunately, the movement didn't gain enough traction...

Did you make this all public?  If so, where were you posting it? 

[KungFuJosh]

While running these different combinations may not be helpful to you personally, it is helpful for me.   I am getting a feel for Siglent's compatibility.  The goal is not to do Siglent's job for them but educate myself.   I don't mind posting the details of what I have done, as it may save others the trouble.   

It has nothing to do with me personally. It's about making a fair comparison, and understanding the tests you're doing. If anybody wants to know how FAT32 performs vs. NTFS on a specific platform, the data is meaningless unless you test both file systems on any drive you're going to test on the platform. Otherwise, the only data you can present is Drive A with Filesystem A vs Drive B with Filesystem B.

If you want to know how a filesystem actually compares on a platform, the ONLY way to test is to eliminate any hardware/firmware differences. The only difference must be the filesystem.

I don't work for Siglent, we're not doing anything for them.

[tv84]

Did you make this all public?  If so, where were you posting it?

There was no publication as there was practically no participation from Siglent owners, in this forum.

Once people get their device fully upped, most quickly forget their need to contribute. They become "too busy with their new puppy"... and "for sure someone else will contribute".

I think I was asking for people to use something like USBView in order to harvest the info of their sticks. But maybe that was indeed an herculean task to ask...

The matter was: the more contributions we have from different USB stick owners, the bigger the chance we could get some patterns in controller brands/models.

(Of course I also did not put a banner in the primetime TV, so...)

[joeqsmith]

While running these different combinations may not be helpful to you personally, it is helpful for me.   I am getting a feel for Siglent's compatibility.  The goal is not to do Siglent's job for them but educate myself.   I don't mind posting the details of what I have done, as it may save others the trouble.   

It has nothing to do with me personally. It's about making a fair comparison, and understanding the tests you're doing. If anybody wants to know how FAT32 performs vs. NTFS on a specific platform, the data is meaningless unless you test both file systems on any drive you're going to test on the platform. Otherwise, the only data you can present is Drive A with Filesystem A vs Drive B with Filesystem B.

If you want to know how a filesystem actually compares on a platform, the ONLY way to test is to eliminate any hardware/firmware differences. The only difference must be the filesystem.

I don't work for Siglent, we're not doing anything for them.

Guessing you will remain fixated on NTFS until I reformat the Silicon Motion 32G.  Of course, then you will want to reformat the other sticks to NTFS.  Then buy more sticks..    Then maybe consider the cache and different allocation unit sizes...  When will it end?   

Again, this is something Siglent should have done to test their code.   

***
Seems similar to my DMM testing....

[joeqsmith]

Did you make this all public?  If so, where were you posting it?

There was no publication as there was practically no participation from Siglent owners, in this forum.

Once people get their device fully upped, most quickly forget their need to contribute. They become "too busy with their new puppy"... and "for sure someone else will contribute".

I think I was asking for people to use something like USBView in order to harvest the info of their sticks. But maybe that was indeed an herculean task to ask...

The matter was: the more contributions we have from different USB stick owners, the bigger the chance we could get some patterns in controller brands/models.

(Of course I also did not put a banner in the primetime TV, so...)

Did you ever get any interest from Siglent?  Seems like this is something they could make use of.

[KungFuJosh]

Guessing you will remain fixated on NTFS until I reformat the Silicon Motion 32G.  Of course, then you will want to reformat the other sticks to NTFS.  Then buy more sticks..    Then maybe consider the cache and different allocation unit sizes...  When will it end?   

Again, this is something Siglent should have done to test their code.   

lol, I was mostly curious about seeing how both filesystems work on the Sandisk Ultra 32G, since I know that should be a decent performer either way.

Yes, Siglent (et al) should do better with USB stick support.

[joeqsmith]

Guessing you will remain fixated on NTFS until I reformat the Silicon Motion 32G.  Of course, then you will want to reformat the other sticks to NTFS.  Then buy more sticks..    Then maybe consider the cache and different allocation unit sizes...  When will it end?   

Again, this is something Siglent should have done to test their code.   

lol, I was mostly curious about seeing how both filesystems work on the Sandisk Ultra 32G, since I know that should be a decent performer either way.

Yes, Siglent (et al) should do better with USB stick support.

Ok.  I will first reformat the Silicon Motion 32G to Fat32 with 16k allocation unit size and cache off.   I will then restore all of the original files onto that drive, test it with the Siglent and note the results.   I will then reformat the drive to NTFS using the same settings are again test it with the Siglent and note the results.   

I will then repeat the above with the Sandisk Ultra.

Of course, the meter guys will remind us that it was only one stick each and that is not statistically useful information.   

[KungFuJosh]

Of course, the meter guys will remind us that it was only one stick each and that is not statistically useful information.

Every journey statistic starts with a single step. 😉

[joeqsmith]

It seems like a good excuse for you to buy one and run your own tests.   Maybe tv84 had collected similar data and could weigh in on what they found. 

I will first reformat the Silicon Motion 32G to Fat32 with 16k allocation unit size and cache off.   I will then restore all of the original files onto that drive, test it with the Siglent and note the results. 

Doing this, the Siglent detects the stick within a couple of seconds.  Saving is no problem.  It seems to work about as good at the 2G stick.   

I will then reformat the drive to NTFS using the same settings are again test it with the Siglent and note the results.   

The first time I inserted the stick, the Siglent detected it after several seconds.  The second time I inserted it, the Siglent would not detect the stick, even after 1 minute.  I turned off all data collection (stop) and let it continue to sit another minute.  No luck.   I the reinserted the stick two more times waiting a full minute and the Siglent failed to detect it.     

I then inserted the stick into the PC which had no problems detecting the stick.  I performed a single R/W operation without any problems.   I then reinserted the stick into the Siglent and it detected the stick.      This is what I had seen before.   

I reformatted the Sandisk Ultra 32G to NTFS with 16k allocation unit size, cache off and restored all of the original files onto that drive, then tested it with the Siglent and note the results. 

I enabled data collection then inserted the stick.  The Siglent detected the stick quickly.  I was able to save data without any issue.   I tried reinserting the stick several more times and had no problems. 

I then reinserted the Silicon Motion stick (NTFS from above).  Siglent detected it within a two seconds.   No issues saving files.  I then reinserted it a second time.  Once again, the Siglent would not detect the stick even after two minutes.  I then stopped data collection and reinserted the stick.  Again, the Siglent would not detect the stick after two minutes. 

I once again inserted the Silicon Motion stick into my PC.  The PC immediately detected the stick.  Without performing any R/W operations, I then reinserted the stick into the Siglent.  The Siglent would not detect the stick after two minutes.  I then reinserted the stick into the PC and performed a single R/W operation (delete and save 1 file).   I then reinserted the stick back into the Siglent where it immediately detected it.  I could again save to the stick.   

I then reformatted the drive to FAT32 and again tested it with the Siglent and noted the results.

The Siglent detects the Sandisk within a couple of seconds after insertion.  Saving and reinserting causes no problems.

Reinserted the Silicon Motion.  Siglent detected it within a two seconds and  no issues saving files.  I then reinserted it, and again the Siglent would not detect the stick even after two minutes. 


There is an obvious pattern to the madness but Siglent would need to step up to solve it.   My suggestion to future Siglent users remains unchanged.  Save your old 2G sticks and maybe format them FAT.  If you find a stick that works, mark it Siglent and keep it with the scope.   

****
Just to add a few more details.  With the Silicon Motion still installed, I allowed the Siglent to sit with collection stopped for another half hour.  It never detected the stick.   Leaving the stick inserted,  rebooted.  This had no effect.  I then power cycled with Siglent unplugged.  This had no effect.  What I did notice is the first time I unplugged and reinserted the Siglent showed the stick in the file manager for about a 1/4 of a second, then removed it.   

Inserted stick back into PC and copied a single file onto it.  Reinserted into Siglent where it was immediately detected.  I then saved five consecutive screen shots to stick.  No problems.  I then removed and reinserted stick.  Siglent immediately detects it.  Appears Siglent is putting something onto this stick and without it, it fails to detect it.   

****
Just some more crumbs.  Plug stick back into PC and delete the Siglent directory.   Remove and insert into Siglent.  Siglent detects it.  Reinsert, Siglent detects it.   Reinsert, Siglent will no longer detect it.    It appears that for a fresh drive they give you some number of chances to use it.  If you save some amount of data to the drive within so many insertions, it will write something onto the drive that it then seems to allow it to use it for ever more.  Otherwise, it bricks it and you are back to the PC.  Again, writting a single file to the stick with the PC appears to be enough to reset what ever their mechanism is to initialize the stick.   This thing is fucked up. 

[Martin72]

I use various sticks between 8 and 64GB on my SDS3104X HD without any problems.
What they all have in common is that they are formatted in FAT32 or exFAT.

[joeqsmith]

I use various sticks between 8 and 64GB on my SDS3104X HD without any problems.
What they all have in common is that they are formatted in FAT32 or exFAT.

If Siglent requires FAT32, they shouldn't be recommending it.  I updated last post after finding another bread crumb.   

[KungFuJosh]

I use various sticks between 8 and 64GB on my SDS3104X HD without any problems.
What they all have in common is that they are formatted in FAT32 or exFAT.

If Siglent requires FAT32, they shouldn't be recommending it.  I updated last post after finding another bread crumb.

From the description of the issues in the previous post, it sounds like detection is more difficult on NTFS formatted USB drives when an operation was interrupted during use. This is like when some systems (Mac included) require(d) you to manually eject an external drive (in the software OS) before physically removing the drive. I'm not making an excuse for this, but pointing out what is likely the source of the issue. Some drives are worse than others regarding this.

When these issues occurred (on regular computers, not scope computers), the drives would often need to be put through drive scanning/repair or be formatted before use again. Your workaround of accessing / writing the drive from a PC is good to know for anybody else that has this issue.

This might be useful for the beta team to review if NTFS support is something they care about.

[joeqsmith]

More crumbs added.  May provide some insight.  Seems to reproduce.

[KungFuJosh]

More crumbs added.  May provide some insight.  Seems to reproduce.

Might also just be a language issue. 🤷

Note step 4 from the SDS3000X HD manual.

[tautech]

More crumbs added.  May provide some insight.  Seems to reproduce.

Might also just be a language issue. 🤷

Note step 4 from the SDS3000X HD manual.

Totally ! 

Comprension too when I posted this 2 days back:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds7000a-dsos-coming/msg5842435/#msg5842435

But what would I know, according to Joe I'm just a sales droid. 

RTFM should be a real thing for some.

[joeqsmith]

More crumbs added.  May provide some insight.  Seems to reproduce.

Might also just be a language issue. 🤷

Note step 4 from the SDS3000X HD manual.

That's after it fails.   Step 4 should read, use your PC to write one file to the storage device and then insert it into the Siglent.   Make sure to save some files from the Siglent to the storage device before removing it or it will brick it.   

More crumbs added.  May provide some insight.  Seems to reproduce.

Might also just be a language issue. 🤷

Note step 4 from the SDS3000X HD manual.

Totally ! 

Comprension too when I posted this 2 days back:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds7000a-dsos-coming/msg5842435/#msg5842435

But what would I know, according to Joe I'm just a sales droid. 

RTFM should be a real thing for some.

You can't seem to comprehend that there is a difference between a requirement and a recommendation. 

[tautech]

More crumbs added.  May provide some insight.  Seems to reproduce.

Might also just be a language issue. 🤷

Note step 4 from the SDS3000X HD manual.

Totally ! 

Comprension too when I posted this 2 days back:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds7000a-dsos-coming/msg5842435/#msg5842435

But what would I know, according to Joe I'm just a sales droid. 

RTFM should be a real thing for some.

You can't seem to comprehend that there is a difference between a requirement and a recommendation.

You think.

Joe's requirement is for it to work without any issues, Siglent's SDS3000X HD recommendation is to use USB sticks formatted in FAT32 !

As previously mentioned there are no such recommendations for the PC based SS7000A that I could find.

[joeqsmith]

More crumbs added.  May provide some insight.  Seems to reproduce.

Might also just be a language issue. 🤷

Note step 4 from the SDS3000X HD manual.

Totally ! 

Comprension too when I posted this 2 days back:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds7000a-dsos-coming/msg5842435/#msg5842435

But what would I know, according to Joe I'm just a sales droid. 

RTFM should be a real thing for some.

You can't seem to comprehend that there is a difference between a requirement and a recommendation.

You think.

Joe's requirement is for it to work without any issues, Siglent's SDS3000X HD recommendation is to use USB sticks formatted in FAT32 !

As previously mentioned there are no such recommendations for the PC based SS7000A that I could find.

I'm posting my findings and suggestions for improvements.  You continue to blame the customer rather than providing anything useful.  Same old same old.   I fully understand Siglent's MSGA business strategy.   

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-they-filed-a-_wrongful-trademark-claim_/
Blame the intern for the culture....

[KungFuJosh]

You can't seem to comprehend that there is a difference between a requirement and a recommendation.

They should have written that it's required. In this case, it's WABFM! (write a better f'ing manual)

[2N3055]

Yet, as I said before, I don't have a stick at home that does not work in SDS7000A, 6000A, 3000xHD, 2000xHD and even 800xHD.
Noname, and SanDisk.. multiple 4GB, 16, 32, 64 GB.
Fat32 or NTFS..
Even a MicroSD USB card reader/stick I have works just fine.
So it obviously is not such a pandemic as it is portrayed ...

AWGs I have do not support NTFS though.

It probably is some interaction of Linux version used with USB controllers used on some of the sticks.

This is the point where I point out that no matter how much people like/hate Windows, they are the king of hardware support.
There will be many devices that will not be recognized by Linux that will normally work on Windows.

AFAIK, Siglent does test USB compatibility but nobody can test ANY combination out there.
Especially all the combinations of weird USB memory sticks that live on the bottom of the drawer for 20 years.
Let's be real.

And there is another realistic logic: we can spend months arguing that 3000 USD scope does not support all the sticks I have. Or I can get few 5-10 USD sticks that work fine for my 3000USD device and get it done with...

I can recommend SanDisk sticks, and get a fast one. Buy a good one. I have few and not only they work flawlessly, they read/write really fast so you save time.

And use network drives if you can. It really is a better way than stick if you have the possibility.

[joeqsmith]

Yet, as I said before, I don't have a stick at home that does not work in SDS7000A, 6000A, 3000xHD, 2000xHD and even 800xHD.
Noname, and SanDisk.. multiple 4GB, 16, 32, 64 GB.
Fat32 or NTFS..
Even a MicroSD USB card reader/stick I have works just fine.
So it obviously is not such a pandemic as it is portrayed ...

Just so we are clear,   I was asking you about PAM4 when you suggested looking at the 3000.  Upon bringing one home to test, I discovered a quirk with a USB stick.  People wanted more details.  I eventually run a detailed test to try and nail down the original problem and get it to replicate.   While I certainly would not consider my small test of four sticks, or finding a single test that would replicate, a pandemic as you put it.  I can see how some may go into overload when presented with that much material in short order.  Again, I was happy to move on after reporting the initial problem.  I was asked for more detail, which I took the time to provide.   

Now that I have a way to replicate the original problem, I wonder if I can reproduce it with the one of the other sticks. 

AWGs I have do not support NTFS though.

It probably is some interaction of Linux version used with USB controllers used on some of the sticks.

This is the point where I point out that no matter how much people like/hate Windows, they are the king of hardware support.
There will be many devices that will not be recognized by Linux that will normally work on Windows.

AFAIK, Siglent does test USB compatibility but nobody can test ANY combination out there.
Especially all the combinations of weird USB memory sticks that live on the bottom of the drawer for 20 years.
Let's be real.

Again, the oldest of the four sticks I tested worked the best.  While I would hope Siglent's firmware group would have spent a fair amount of time testing different peripheral for compatibility,  you could be correct.  Maybe they let their customers do their testing for them.  We are seeing the end result of that live.  I was asked about running some RF tests on a 7000 and declined for this very reason. 

And there is another realistic logic: we can spend months arguing that 3000 USD scope does not support all the sticks I have. Or I can get few 5-10 USD sticks that work fine for my 3000USD device and get it done with...

Argument?      I provided some details on how to replicate a problem I noticed after I was asked about it.  I also made a suggestion to change the wording in the manual to make it more clear to users.  Hardly constitutes an argument.   

I can recommend SanDisk sticks, and get a fast one. Buy a good one. I have few and not only they work flawlessly, they read/write really fast so you save time.

And use network drives if you can. It really is a better way than stick if you have the possibility.

As I previously suggested:

My suggestion to future Siglent users remains unchanged.  Save your old 2G sticks and maybe format them FAT.  If you find a stick that works, mark it Siglent and keep it with the scope.   

[2N3055]

AWGs I have do not support NTFS though.

It probably is some interaction of Linux version used with USB controllers used on some of the sticks.

This is the point where I point out that no matter how much people like/hate Windows, they are the king of hardware support.
There will be many devices that will not be recognized by Linux that will normally work on Windows.

AFAIK, Siglent does test USB compatibility but nobody can test ANY combination out there.
Especially all the combinations of weird USB memory sticks that live on the bottom of the drawer for 20 years.
Let's be real.

Again, the oldest of the four sticks I tested worked the best.  While I would hope Siglent's firmware group would have spent a fair amount of time testing different peripheral for compatibility,  you could be correct.  Maybe they let their customers do their testing for them.  We are seeing the end result of that live.  I was asked about running some RF tests on a 7000 and declined for this very reason. 

With due all respect, that is not what I said. I said what I said: that for NO effin manufacturer it is possible to test infinity of USB sticks in a wild out there, no matter how comprehensive test protocol is. And that you read as "they do not test USB sticks at all"...
Which is nowhere close to what I said.
I apologized for my English before, but maybe it is not my comprehension that is debatable this time.
Or, again, I wasn't clear, in which case I apologize.

Nobody is naive here. Keysight release history for my MSOX 3000T scope lists 27 friggin pages of changes. Roughly half of it were bugs. I personally found a bug with 3000T going into hard bluescreen because it didn't like something about IPv6 setting on an internet router despite IPv6 being disabled. They found what it is and plainly said that they won't fix it. Change the router.
Which is fine by me. They cannot test every possible device type interaction. It is not possible.
They will test to some representative sample and device spread and that is it.

And I wasn't arguing with you.
I understand and accept that you had some problems. I do not contest this.
And I, like you, offered my additional test sample of few sticks I have that gave me no problems. As in zero problems.
What is the reason I don't know. But that is my experience, not my opinion.
Like yours, it is not open for discussion. It simply is what it is.
Best,

[joeqsmith]

With due all respect, that is not what I said. I said what I said: that for NO effin manufacturer it is possible to test infinity of USB sticks in a wild out there, no matter how comprehensive test protocol is. And that you read as "they do not test USB sticks at all"...
Which is nowhere close to what I said.

Sorry, you lost me.  Quotes where there for both statements.  It's simply an interpretation problem.   I would expect them to run a fairly comprehensive test to at least iron out the basic problems.  For example, catching that the help is in Chinese rather than English was easy to catch by pressing the help button.   No doubt other companies will release with bugs and offer continuous improvements.  I expect at some point Siglent may offer their help in English. 

I apologized for my English before, but maybe it is not my comprehension that is debatable this time.
Or, again, I wasn't clear, in which case I apologize.

Again, no need.

And I wasn't arguing with you.
I understand and accept that you had some problems. I do not contest this.
And I, like you, offered my additional test sample of few sticks I have that gave me no problems. As in zero problems.
What is the reason I don't know. But that is my experience, not my opinion.
Like yours, it is not open for discussion. It simply is what it is.
Best,

I did reformat the 2G stick to NTFS and attempted to replicate the problem with it locking the device but was unable to get it to reproduce.   So, 2 of the 4 sticks I tried have problems depending how they are configured.  Changing the format of the other two sticks has no effect.   

[2N3055]

With due all respect, that is not what I said. I said what I said: that for NO effin manufacturer it is possible to test infinity of USB sticks in a wild out there, no matter how comprehensive test protocol is. And that you read as "they do not test USB sticks at all"...
Which is nowhere close to what I said.

Sorry, you lost me.  Quotes where there for both statements.  It's simply an interpretation problem.   I would expect them to run a fairly comprehensive test to at least iron out the basic problems.  For example, catching that the help is in Chinese rather than English was easy to catch by pressing the help button.   No doubt other companies will release with bugs and offer continuous improvements.  I expect at some point Siglent may offer their help in English. 

I apologized for my English before, but maybe it is not my comprehension that is debatable this time.
Or, again, I wasn't clear, in which case I apologize.

Again, no need.

And I wasn't arguing with you.
I understand and accept that you had some problems. I do not contest this.
And I, like you, offered my additional test sample of few sticks I have that gave me no problems. As in zero problems.
What is the reason I don't know. But that is my experience, not my opinion.
Like yours, it is not open for discussion. It simply is what it is.
Best,

I did reformat the 2G stick to NTFS and attempted to replicate the problem with it locking the device but was unable to get it to reproduce.   So, 2 of the 4 sticks I tried have problems depending how they are configured.  Changing the format of the other two sticks has no effect.   

It is me being confused then. Which is nice to know, because, at least, I am not confused about confusion anymore. Less entropy is nice... 

I happen to be a bit particular about things and like to keep things separate.

So I don't confuse very hard to test to full extent of USB sticks in the universe hardware compatibility test with a screw-up of not pushing English translated help into repository for the release.
One is nigh impossible and there will always be some devices that do have some glitches or even downright don't work.
And there will be some bridges you fix when you get there..

Other is an oversight that is frankly not something to be proud of.
Yes, they know, they are not happy about it, and yes, it will be released with next FW...

We shouldn't conflate a mistake (help in English not included) with "we have a deliberate policy of lousy testing..".

As sidenote , aparently nobody reads help or manual anyways, considering what we can see on this forum.... 

[coromonadalix]

on our sds7404  i put anything i have on hand  between 2 and 32gb        fat32, ntfs,  u-disk, or not in some of them,  even an micro Usd-card with an usb card reader  work

no problems ?  up to now ?


we did some pulse tests and done many screen shots for many peoples ..
 

[joeqsmith]

...
One is nigh impossible and there will always be some devices that do have some glitches or even downright don't work.
And there will be some bridges you fix when you get there..
...
We shouldn't conflate a mistake (help in English not included) with "we have a deliberate policy of lousy testing..".
...

The two sticks I have that are problematic when used with the Siglent 3000 will work fine when formatted FAT32.   If they knew enough to add FAT32 to their troubleshooting section when using FLASH sticks,  why recommend it rather than state it is a requirement in other sections of the same manual?     Why make it ambiguous?

on our sds7404  i put anything i have on hand  between 2 and 32gb        fat32 ntfs  u-disk or not in some of them,  even an micro Usd-card with an usb card reader

no problems ?  up to now ? ....

As mentioned, it's a different product all together.   I only brought up the 3000 because when asking about the 7000 others keep suggesting I look at it.  Of course, the 7000 has it's own problems.  At least it seems like most are firmware and can be addressed.     

[coromonadalix]

they have issued at least 4 different fw,  i was on 1.1.5.2   now 1.1.7.7

    SDS7000A Firmware _V1.1.7.7 (Release Date 12.26.24 )
    SDS7000A Firmware _V1.1.5.2 (Release Date 06.04.24 )
    SDS7000A Firmware _V1.1.5.1 (Release Date 04.02.24 )
    SDS7000A Firmware _V1.1.4.2 (Release Date 03.12.24 )

[joeqsmith]

I had seen that and asked about a roadmap for future updates and what they entail.  From discussing the 7000 with 2N3055, there are some changes I would want to see in with the firmware before I would purchase one.   There's no guarantee these changes would ever be considered, let alone added.   

Because it was suggested that I look at the 3000 as a comparison, consider it was shipped with Chinese help.  Seems like a quick fix and we would have seen a new firmware release rather quickly.   The changes to the 7000's firmware would be a lot more involved.   Some of it seems like because of how the code was structured, I doubt would ever get addressed. 

I played around a bit with the 3000's mask editor.  It's fairly simple to use.  The auto mask generator needs some work.   They offer a eye diagram add-on, and I suspect it will have a whole different setup for the mask.  I wonder how it compares.  I had asked 2N3055 about this but I suspect they don't have this option or they would have responded.

[KungFuJosh]

it was shipped with Chinese help.  Seems like a quick fix and we would have seen a new firmware release rather quickly.

Embarrassing bug or not, they don't operate like that. From what I've seen, bug fixes get grouped together and then released after being thoroughly tested. If they plan on releasing 10 bug fixes, all 10 bugs get fixed and tested before release.

[joeqsmith]

Embarrassing bug or not, they don't operate like that. From what I've seen, bug fixes get grouped together and then released after being thoroughly tested. If they plan on releasing 10 bug fixes, all 10 bugs get fixed and tested before release.

Without a roadmap, I have no way to know what their plans are or what their idea of thoroughly testing it.  I would guess they Beta test their products with customers, but maybe they only use local Beta sites, so the Chinese language was expected. 

[KungFuJosh]

Embarrassing bug or not, they don't operate like that. From what I've seen, bug fixes get grouped together and then released after being thoroughly tested. If they plan on releasing 10 bug fixes, all 10 bugs get fixed and tested before release.

Without a roadmap, I have no way to know what their plans are or what their idea of thoroughly testing it.  I would guess they Beta test their products with customers, but maybe they only use local Beta sites, so the Chinese language was expected.

Roadmap, I have no idea unless somebody posts something. They have official beta testers all over the world. You know at least 2 or 3 of them.

[joeqsmith]

Embarrassing bug or not, they don't operate like that. From what I've seen, bug fixes get grouped together and then released after being thoroughly tested. If they plan on releasing 10 bug fixes, all 10 bugs get fixed and tested before release.

Without a roadmap, I have no way to know what their plans are or what their idea of thoroughly testing it.  I would guess they Beta test their products with customers, but maybe they only use local Beta sites, so the Chinese language was expected.

Roadmap, I have no idea unless somebody posts something. They have official beta testers all over the world. You know at least 2 or 3 of them.

I don't personally know of anyone beta testing for Siglent, unless you are considering their customers their beta testers.   Assuming you are correct they they are world wide, I have a hard time believing none of them would report the help being in Chinese.  They should look at who they have testing, or they need to listen when these beta testers report errors. 

[KungFuJosh]

Roadmap, I have no idea unless somebody posts something. They have official beta testers all over the world. You know at least 2 or 3 of them.

I don't personally know of anyone beta testing for Siglent, unless you are considering their customers their beta testers.   Assuming you are correct they they are world wide, I have a hard time believing none of them would report the help being in Chinese.  They should look at who they have testing, or they need to listen when these beta testers report errors.

On this forum, you do know some members officially on the beta team. If they want to say who they are, that's up to them.

If you read previous comments from other users, you will see that the Chinese help bug has been reported, confirmed, and will be fixed in the next firmware update.

[Martin72]

Meanwhile, I no longer understand which model is being discussed here.
It would be great if we could continue to discuss the SDS3000X HD in the appropriate thread and only explicitly talk about the SDS7000A here.

[KungFuJosh]

only explicitly talk about the SDS7000A here.

The SDS7000A is the shit! 😉

[joeqsmith]

Roadmap, I have no idea unless somebody posts something. They have official beta testers all over the world. You know at least 2 or 3 of them.

I don't personally know of anyone beta testing for Siglent, unless you are considering their customers their beta testers.   Assuming you are correct they they are world wide, I have a hard time believing none of them would report the help being in Chinese.  They should look at who they have testing, or they need to listen when these beta testers report errors.

On this forum, you do know some members officially on the beta team. If they want to say who they are, that's up to them.

If you read previous comments from other users, you will see that the Chinese help bug has been reported, confirmed, and will be fixed in the next firmware update.

Ah like the Facebook friends I hear so much about.   

My point about Chinese help is that should have never made it past Siglent's internal QC.  Even if that failed, I would have expected the beta testers to report it.  If that failed, it's because Siglent didn't act on the feedback they received, or you have to wonder what Siglent's requirements are for becoming a beta tester.   One may miss it, but you're talking about a world wide network of beta testers.  Did they ALL miss it??   Seems unlikely.     

[joeqsmith]

Meanwhile, I no longer understand which model is being discussed here.
It would be great if we could continue to discuss the SDS3000X HD in the appropriate thread and only explicitly talk about the SDS7000A here.

The easy fix for that is not to ask me about the 3000 in the 7000 thread.   

[KungFuJosh]

My point about Chinese help is that should have never made it past Siglent's internal QC.  Even if that failed, I would have expected the beta testers to report it.  If that failed, it's because Siglent didn't act on the feedback they received, or you have to wonder what Siglent's requirements are for becoming a beta tester.   One may miss it, but you're talking about a world wide network of beta testers.  Did they ALL miss it??   Seems unlikely.   

Was the help file being beta tested, or just taken for granted? I think the answer to that is obvious. 😉

[coromonadalix]

there is a new thread about Siglent usb,  pls  keep this thread  for THE SDS7K series

[coromonadalix]

Siglent  Freebie PA option enabled    thks Siglent

[mawyatt]

That's a nice DSO

20GSPS with 12 Bit ADCs, that's impressive. Do you know which ADC they are using?

How's the 32Mpt FFT behave?

Best

[tautech]

Siglent  Freebie PA option enabled    thks Siglent

Finally....good, knew you would get it in the end.   

[skander36]

Siglent  Freebie PA option enabled    thks Siglent