Author Topic: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)  (Read 5759 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7466
  • Country: hr
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2024, 10:46:11 am »
Why engage the brain when the processing power in the modern DSO is far more powerful ?  :-//
Why put blinders on and mentally limit available options from scope suite? :-//
Anyway, user chooses process that is most suitable for application at hand, I not arguing what one "should use".
Indeed.   :horse:

The whole discussion reminds me of when I worked at the local chocolate factory for one day when I was a teenager. I had to pull bars of chocolate onto trays from a conveyer belt using an piece of aluminium. I had to reach out quite far so I used one hand to support myself and the other to rake in the chocolate so my back wouldn't hurt at the end of the day. Boss lady comes around and tells me to use two hands because god gave me two hands. FFS!  :palm:  :palm: I guess she either never had to do this task herself or just wanted to check my ass when I bent over.

Read my previous post so you don't sound like that lady, talking smack about something you have no clue about.
Scope he uses has no "zoom out", not in sense you call it, not like RTM3000.

That is why I positively HATE that stupid "zoom out" phrase because it means different thing to different people.
And you keep interjecting your agenda to something unrelated, because you are trying to capitalize on something Dave made controversial by giving it undeserved infamy, but based on wrong facts.

Whether you like using manual memory mode is unrelated to fact that people keep using Keysight as an example of "zooming out" while it positively proven that scope is INCAPABLE of doing that.
It uses exactly the same strategy as Siglent, and captures only screen width.

Technically you can put 3000T in Digitizer mode and gain manual memory control.
If you ever can, try it. You will try it once and then never use it again. It is useless for general use.
"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
Dr. Richard W. Hamming
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone

Online Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5156
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2024, 11:24:06 am »
@Someone, @tautech, I respectfully would like to ask to read my posts carefully.
If you wouldn't go back and aggressively edit them then you might have a leg to stand on. Correcting yourself and pretending like you were right all along.
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17526
  • Country: 00
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2024, 11:27:49 am »
Yet my clear statements are ignored to push for "zoom in is better process anyway, so why care about zoom out benefits" agenda.

Welcome to EEVBLOG.
 
The following users thanked this post: electr_peter

Online Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5156
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2024, 11:34:43 am »
Zoom is great but saying its optimal to use when you have a smaller 7" screen, sometimes its not. This is one trace, which is about the limit I'd want to go:

[Image of zoom window taking up 1/3 of the screen]

Capturing data around the view is an important parameter which the user should be able to choose. Adding memory around the screen reduces the waveform update rate. The nonsense claims of zero downside are plainly false.

So maybe an ideal would have two memory modes:
- Auto - Performance
- Auto - Capture area
Yes, good points. It is entirely possible to have such civil discourse on the topic! More choices are always better but I'm not sure "auto - capture area" really addresses the need/demand/desires as there is still a sample rate vs capture period tradeoff which would be desirable to control.

I'd imagine the following acquisition menu items:
Memory Depth Max (numerical)
Sample Rate Max (numerical)
Capture Around Screen (yes/no)

and somewhere in the horizontal control/menu a control to change the ratio/position of the "capture around screen" forward/backwards
 

Offline newbrain

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1801
  • Country: se
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2024, 11:49:27 am »
I'm having a bit of déjà-vu...
I'll repeat myself, so you can enjoy that too.

This was in early June, and TBH, the more I use it, the more I find the use history or zoom on a longer timebase WoWs give me much better control than the old way - at least for my use cases, mostly looking at modulated signals, or, associated with advanced triggering, checking what happened before of after a specific event on some digital interface.

Quote
I recently sold my Rigol DS1054Z and got me a Siglent SDS804X-HD.
The first time I tried to "zoom out" (more precisely, increase the timebase) on a stopped capture I thought "Oh, nothing outside the screen, I'll set a larger memory".
Did that, and, as we know, no dice.
I RTFMed. Always on History mode - mind blown.

Literally 10 minutes after getting the scope, I adapted to the different WoW; now I would really reluctantly go back to the old one, if I had to renounce history and zoom mode versatility.
But to each their own - at least until facts are correctly explained.
Nandemo wa shiranai wa yo, shitteru koto dake.
 
The following users thanked this post: 2N3055, awakephd

Offline electr_peter

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1443
  • Country: lt
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2024, 12:37:22 pm »
Okay, so you like the Keyshite way, I get that, so show us a $440 model with that capability ?
Once again, you try to denigrate Keysight ideas. If other scope has some refined features that Siglent doesn't have, they automatically are not useful/worth the cost/redundant/etc. according to you, got it.
 
The following users thanked this post: Fungus

Offline electr_peter

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1443
  • Country: lt
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #56 on: October 05, 2024, 12:57:10 pm »
@2N3055, your explanation of how Keysight works is on point. However, you seem to go a bit further and imply that "proponents of zoom out" feature also suggest to incorporate it in analysis process which they do not. I am not in any way suggest you or anybody to use zoom out as a process (never had), just that in some cases this feature can be useful.

Why engage the brain when the processing power in the modern DSO is far more powerful ?  :-//
Why put blinders on and mentally limit available options from scope suite? :-//
Anyway, user chooses process that is most suitable for application at hand, I not arguing what one "should use".
I agree. Let's not put blinders on.
So why are you ignoring that Keysight does not "capture outside the screen".
Because it does in RUN/STOP mode under specific conditions as you described yourself (example 1). In example 2 it did try to capture outside display (as in example 2), but did not find valid trigger and reverted back to the last in display capture already in memory. Otherwise, it would have captured as in example 1.

Quote
What you see on the screen is separate, later capture from separate trigger than the one that made you press Stop.
...
When you press stop it waits for next trigger event and captures some other, random part of waveform, uncorrelated to what was on the screen when you press Stop.
Can you explain what do you expect scope to display when you press STOP? Because statement above is correct practically everytime when looking at signals in fasttime bases. With fast timebases and triggers 100s of times a second even pressing STOP button has all sorts of user/scope delays which results in something on the screen that may or may not be similar to what was on screen in RUN mode. With rare triggers it is a bit more clear what to expect to happen, but still anything can be shown depending on changes in signal.

If signal is jumping around all over the shop like crazy, separate snapshots in SINGLE/STOP mode will also jump around like crazy (and having 1 snapshot in such cases obviously is not enough). What else can scope do? I am really not sure what your angle here is  :-//
Are you implying that more memory is better? Sure, but that is a separate thing.

Quote
So basically, to observe the neighborhood of some event of the screen, it as useful as simply changing timebase to whatever you want to look at while scope is still in the RUN mode and then STOP.
That is exactly what Keysight does, but automatically. I guess it is good if you cannot be bothered to change timebase then stop instead of just single lazy STOP.
Yes, it is equivalent. But it is improvement nonetheless compared to typical scope operation even if you think it is "lazy". Again, it is just a feature, but it is not an instruction how one should use a scope.

Quote
But result is the same, you get some random uncorrelated time in signal when trigger activates. If that is OK for you because signal is monotonic and auto repetitive to such degree that it does not matter where you look, then what is the point of "looking around". It is all going to be the same. Perfect replica. Once you put whole period on screen, all others are the same.
If signal is highly agile, than Keysight is useless. Dangerous I may say. It will show you false data somewhere else than what you were looking at...
It is trick, and the scope lies to you. literally.
Once again, I still don't understand your point. If signal is jumping around and you get single fixed capture, of course you can miss changing behavior. It is up to the user to get enough captures at proper times bases. STOP/SINGLE mode is just doing exactly what it says, there is no lying here. You can call Keysight way a trick, cunning plan or cheating, but it is not lying.
"you get some random uncorrelated time in signal when trigger activates" - this definition applies to all trigger captures as well, so :-//
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7466
  • Country: hr
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #57 on: October 05, 2024, 01:30:47 pm »
Okay, so you like the Keyshite way, I get that, so show us a $440 model with that capability ?
Once again, you try to denigrate Keysight ideas. If other scope has some refined features that Siglent doesn't have, they automatically are not useful/worth the cost/redundant/etc. according to you, got it.

Keysight does NOT do what you claim it does.
After stopping, you DO NOT have insight into what was around event that was on screen when you pressed STOP.
It does not "zoom out". It takes separate, later capture, at some completely different time, and shows you what was around that later event.
It does that only on timebases less than 20µs/div and can show up to 400µs altogether. If you have MSO active, it is half of that.

Worst part is that people keep insisting it "zooms out". It does not. It simply does this: If you are at timebases of less than 20µs/div, it will keep capturing only screen width, trigger to trigger. If you then press stop, on it's own it will change timebase to equivalent of 40µ/div, wait for trigger and then take a separate Single capture and then Stop.
This is absolute functional equivalent to manually changing timebase to something else and pressing Stop.

Both ways you will get some random capture later. With exception that Keysight does that and pretend it to be something else. And you have one less step. But always only 400/200µs worth of data. While on other scopes with deep memory (which includes Keysights with deep memory, mind you) you can capture 100ms if you like.

Only way to guarantee that scope will capture definite time interval around some part of waveform is to deliberately instruct scope what, where and how much.
You can do that in two ways:
- By using Nico's method of setting manual memory length (on scopes that support it) by calculating times from combination of memory size and sample rate, and manually position screen to some detail inside that buffer. Then you do stop and by using time base and horizontal position you travel back and forth and inspect. CON is It requires mental math, but PRO, it makes good use of full screen for details.
- By using long timebase and zoom function. You setup long capture with timebase, set everything on screen, and then use zoom to travel back and forth. CON is zoom mode partitions screen and detail is not so large on screen. PRO is that setup is simple, intuitive and WISIWIG. You always have visual map of whole capture and your position where are you looking into detail.

And you are wrong. In this case it is Siglent (and LeCroy) that has sophisticated features. Like always running History mode, where you can see last 100s or 1000s triggers. With timestamp. With full analysis on each. With 4 maths channels with arbitrary formula input. And 20-125X more memory

On SDS300xHD, in history mode you can then go find one of the thousands, save that as a memory, create math channel that subtracts memory from current history capture and show you difference.
"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
Dr. Richard W. Hamming
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7466
  • Country: hr
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #58 on: October 05, 2024, 01:46:22 pm »
@2N3055, your explanation of how Keysight works is on point. However, you seem to go a bit further and imply that "proponents of zoom out" feature also suggest to incorporate it in analysis process which they do not. I am not in any way suggest you or anybody to use zoom out as a process (never had), just that in some cases this feature can be useful.

Why engage the brain when the processing power in the modern DSO is far more powerful ?  :-//
Why put blinders on and mentally limit available options from scope suite? :-//
Anyway, user chooses process that is most suitable for application at hand, I not arguing what one "should use".
I agree. Let's not put blinders on.
So why are you ignoring that Keysight does not "capture outside the screen".
Because it does in RUN/STOP mode under specific conditions as you described yourself (example 1). In example 2 it did try to capture outside display (as in example 2), but did not find valid trigger and reverted back to the last in display capture already in memory. Otherwise, it would have captured as in example 1.

Quote
What you see on the screen is separate, later capture from separate trigger than the one that made you press Stop.
...
When you press stop it waits for next trigger event and captures some other, random part of waveform, uncorrelated to what was on the screen when you press Stop.
Can you explain what do you expect scope to display when you press STOP? Because statement above is correct practically everytime when looking at signals in fasttime bases. With fast timebases and triggers 100s of times a second even pressing STOP button has all sorts of user/scope delays which results in something on the screen that may or may not be similar to what was on screen in RUN mode. With rare triggers it is a bit more clear what to expect to happen, but still anything can be shown depending on changes in signal.

If signal is jumping around all over the shop like crazy, separate snapshots in SINGLE/STOP mode will also jump around like crazy (and having 1 snapshot in such cases obviously is not enough). What else can scope do? I am really not sure what your angle here is  :-//
Are you implying that more memory is better? Sure, but that is a separate thing.

Quote
So basically, to observe the neighborhood of some event of the screen, it as useful as simply changing timebase to whatever you want to look at while scope is still in the RUN mode and then STOP.
That is exactly what Keysight does, but automatically. I guess it is good if you cannot be bothered to change timebase then stop instead of just single lazy STOP.
Yes, it is equivalent. But it is improvement nonetheless compared to typical scope operation even if you think it is "lazy". Again, it is just a feature, but it is not an instruction how one should use a scope.

Quote
But result is the same, you get some random uncorrelated time in signal when trigger activates. If that is OK for you because signal is monotonic and auto repetitive to such degree that it does not matter where you look, then what is the point of "looking around". It is all going to be the same. Perfect replica. Once you put whole period on screen, all others are the same.
If signal is highly agile, than Keysight is useless. Dangerous I may say. It will show you false data somewhere else than what you were looking at...
It is trick, and the scope lies to you. literally.
Once again, I still don't understand your point. If signal is jumping around and you get single fixed capture, of course you can miss changing behavior. It is up to the user to get enough captures at proper times bases. STOP/SINGLE mode is just doing exactly what it says, there is no lying here. You can call Keysight way a trick, cunning plan or cheating, but it is not lying.
"you get some random uncorrelated time in signal when trigger activates" - this definition applies to all trigger captures as well, so :-//


It is simple. Only way to capture changing signal and be able to do it at least partially coherent is long memory. And that is actually not a separate issue.

Simply, you DON'T look at the signal at the fastest timebase if you want data around. On a scope with large memory you can keep fastest SAMPLE rate down to 10s of ms/div. All the details are there, same as if you were at 1 ns/div.
And use zoom mode to look at the detail. Or stop and traverse data with timebase and horizontal pos.

As you said yourself, any scope does the same if you do one more manual step. So yes it is simply a shortcut, a "lazy" way. Scopes that don't have that shortcut have same capability. It is used differently. But it is wrong to imply that by using Keysight you get something others cannot accomplish. Of course they can, by using different UI. Which on different scopes, UI and workflow differences are much greater than this detail.
"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
Dr. Richard W. Hamming
 

Offline electr_peter

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1443
  • Country: lt
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #59 on: October 05, 2024, 03:10:57 pm »
Keysight does NOT do what you claim it does.
After stopping, you DO NOT have insight into what was around event that was on screen when you pressed STOP.
It does not "zoom out". It takes separate, later capture, at some completely different time, and shows you what was around that later event.
Keysight does what it claims. "last capture in RUN mode" is earlier in time than "capture in STOP mode" aspect is more or less true with all scopes in STOP mode. That may be different if scope captured everything with 0 blind time at max sample rate or have duplicated capture data path, but we are not there yet in normal scopes.
Which capture out of 1000s of traces in RUN mode does your scope STOP on? Are you really are sure which one exactly? With fast trigger events this is a pointless question. With slow trigger events it is more clear if you need this clarity.

Quote
Both ways you will get some random capture later. With exception that Keysight does that and pretend it to be something else. And you have one less step.
"random capture later" applies to all trigger captures. Also you have much faster waveform update rate while getting more memory in STOP mode.

Quote
And you are wrong. In this case it is Siglent (and LeCroy) that has sophisticated features.
I said refined features that Keysight has (and others do not have) which you did not prove wrong. Sure, modern Siglent/Lecroy are good scopes with many features and big memory, no wonder these are very popular considering cost.

As you said yourself, any scope does the same if you do one more manual step. So yes it is simply a shortcut, a "lazy" way. Scopes that don't have that shortcut have same capability. It is used differently. But it is wrong to imply that by using Keysight you get something others cannot accomplish. Of course they can, by using different UI.
Where did I say other scopes cannot accomplish something? Do you see a difference between a feature/shortcut (in a narrow sense) and ability to accomplish something (in a wider sense)? Keysight has useful feature (another way to accomplish something a bit faster) which others do not have.

I think I get it now - this Keysight "zoom out" bashing is covert criticism that Keysight InfiniVision memory is lacking compared to competition. Then just say it straight and not in these roundabout ways. "Zoom out" feature is alive and well (independent of memory size), it just has to face unfair criticism for some reason.
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7466
  • Country: hr
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #60 on: October 05, 2024, 03:39:32 pm »

I am not trying to disprove anything. I claim that YOU failed to prove that it is useful, sophisticated and indispensable.
It is not. It is a trick and gives you absolutely the same result as "change timebase-stop" on all other scopes.

"Zoom out" specifically means to be able to show data before and after the actual event on the screen.
Keysight implementation does not do that. It haven't got "zoom out". Period. It is misleading, QED.  There are thousands of people out that that wrongly think it does "zoom out" in definition from previous sentence. And that lie is being used by proponents of Keysight as "another proof of sophistication and advanced capabilities". While it is nothing more than snake oil.

If signal is very repetitive it doesn't matter. But then also you are not limited to anything. You simply stay in RUN mode and change timebase at will.
It is all the same.
If signal is some changing pattern, then it is also all the same to do these steps:

20ns/div -> change timebase -> STOP

gives result equivalent to

20ns/div -> STOP -> change timebase.

With both you will end up with some random part of sequence in the memory of the scope.. They both have same number of steps. Except that first one will let you extend to more time than 400µs worth of data.

At this moment I can see that you understand how it works but despite being shown the details, you refuse to accept there is more to it than you think.
Since it is not my intention to "convert" you or make you change your mind. You do you. If you are happy so am I.
My concern is only that all people involved into discussion understand exactly what actually is going on,
I think all was explained in sufficient detail, so I have nothing more to add.
"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
Dr. Richard W. Hamming
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone

Offline electr_peter

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1443
  • Country: lt
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #61 on: October 05, 2024, 04:06:32 pm »
I am not trying to disprove anything. I claim that YOU failed to prove that it is useful, sophisticated and indispensable.
It was showed multiple times to be useful (in some circumstances) and more sophisticated. It is not my problem that nuances are not recognized (on purpose?) by some. To every factual claim you get misdirection, misquoting, willful ignorance, mental gymnastics, term redefinitions which somehow proves zoom out is wrong. Oh, well

Quote
At this moment I can see that you understand how it works but despite being shown the details, you refuse to accept there is more to it than you think.
Since it is not my intention to "convert" you or make you change your mind. You do you. If you are happy so am I.
My concern is only that all people involved into discussion understand exactly what actually is going on,
I think all was explained in sufficient detail, so I have nothing more to add.
I can concur to every statement above in other direction >:D Some are just willfully blind.
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17526
  • Country: 00
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #62 on: October 05, 2024, 04:24:29 pm »
Nobody's saying it can't be done the Siglent way, but it's not a natural workflow.

Nobody works zoomed out because you can't see anything, we all work zoomed in to see maximum detail of whatever we're looking at.

Siglent forces you to stop, zoom out, recapture, then go back in again to see if you managed to get what you wanted. Every. Single. Time.

There's no way that's generally better than just pressing "STOP" then zooming out.

Talk of "the 'scope is slower that way" is also greatly exaggerated.
 

Offline newbrain

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1801
  • Country: se
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #63 on: October 05, 2024, 04:54:41 pm »
Quote from: me
until facts are correctly explained
Siglent forces you to stop, zoom out, recapture, then go back in again to see if you managed to get what you wanted. Every. Single. Time.
First, I prefer to clearly say "increase/decrease timebase" rather than zoom out/in.
No, it does not (and if you think about it, it does not make sense).
If you know you have to recapture (and you have to, with Siglent/LeCroy), there's no point in stopping, just increase the timebase and stop later.
But that's not the way I do it.
You can set from the beginning a suitably long timebase and a zoom on the trigger area for details (or wherever you like).
You can stop when you like the composition and no one has their eyes closed, then you can zoom in and out (to the full capture extent) as much as you like.

Would I do differently on a "classical" scope? Probably not if I had the choice, yes if that was the only choice (as, in fact, it was for me).

The only real advantage of the "increase timebase after stop" is if I notice something (in the limited viewport of the screen) and my reflexes are fast enough to stop the capture before the next retrigger - otherwise it's just a shot in the dark (and BTW, with the Keysight trick one is SOL by design in this case).
Nandemo wa shiranai wa yo, shitteru koto dake.
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone, 2N3055

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28429
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #64 on: October 05, 2024, 07:55:29 pm »
Quote from: me
until facts are correctly explained
Siglent forces you to stop, zoom out, recapture, then go back in again to see if you managed to get what you wanted. Every. Single. Time.
First, I prefer to clearly say "increase/decrease timebase" rather than zoom out/in.
No, it does not (and if you think about it, it does not make sense).
If you know you have to recapture (and you have to, with Siglent/LeCroy), there's no point in stopping, just increase the timebase and stop later.
The thing is that if you need to go back & forth a lot between horizontal positions and timebase, being able to zoom in/out horizontally / scroll left/right after making an acquisition is just easier for people as it saves a lot of fiddling with buttons and thinking about what settings are needed exactly. When dealing with a complicated problem / circuit, the last thing you need is test equipment being more complicated to operate than necessary. You have to be carefull not to confuse your personal preference with what other people like to do. Also keep in mind that your projects / workflow may be entirely different so capturing beyond the screen is not useful for you. But that doesn't mean capturing beyond the screen is useless for everyone!
« Last Edit: October 05, 2024, 07:58:47 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
The following users thanked this post: electr_peter

Offline KungFuJosh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3166
  • Country: us
  • TEAS is real.
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #65 on: October 05, 2024, 08:28:50 pm »
The thing is that if you need to go back & forth a lot between horizontal positions and timebase, being able to zoom in/out horizontally / scroll left/right after making an acquisition is just easier for people as it saves a lot of fiddling with buttons and thinking about what settings are needed exactly. When dealing with a complicated problem / circuit, the last thing you need is test equipment being more complicated to operate than necessary. You have to be carefull not to confuse your personal preference with what other people like to do. Also keep in mind that your projects / workflow may be entirely different so capturing beyond the screen is not useful for you. But that doesn't mean capturing beyond the screen is useless for everyone!

These are touchscreen scopes, you can touch the screen to change positions, and then use the knobs if you need more accuracy. It's not that much fiddling these days.

Personally, I think the whole argument is silly. If you need to capture more than what's on screen, expand what's on screen. 🤷
"Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before." - Steven Wright
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28429
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #66 on: October 05, 2024, 08:41:09 pm »
The thing is that if you need to go back & forth a lot between horizontal positions and timebase, being able to zoom in/out horizontally / scroll left/right after making an acquisition is just easier for people as it saves a lot of fiddling with buttons and thinking about what settings are needed exactly. When dealing with a complicated problem / circuit, the last thing you need is test equipment being more complicated to operate than necessary. You have to be carefull not to confuse your personal preference with what other people like to do. Also keep in mind that your projects / workflow may be entirely different so capturing beyond the screen is not useful for you. But that doesn't mean capturing beyond the screen is useless for everyone!
These are touchscreen scopes, you can touch the screen to change positions, and then use the knobs if you need more accuracy. It's not that much fiddling these days.

The point still is that it is easier to have excess data (without having to do anything at all) versus needing extra data which isn't there. Better safe than sorry. It really is simple as that.  Having a touchscreen or not makes no difference. I don't get why people insist on wanting to take something away as if their personal preference is the golden rule.  :palm: Re-read and understand the post I wrote about left & right handed tools earlier on in this thread. There is nothing more to it but some seem to get religiously fanatic about being right.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2024, 08:58:08 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5156
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #67 on: October 05, 2024, 09:16:23 pm »
Nobody's saying it can't be done the Siglent way, but it's not a natural workflow.

Nobody works zoomed out because you can't see anything, we all work zoomed in to see maximum detail of whatever we're looking at.

Siglent forces you to stop, zoom out, recapture, then go back in again to see if you managed to get what you wanted. Every. Single. Time.
Why keep bringing up this straw man argument?  :horse:

If a user is knowingly wanting to capture something outside the screen to look at later then they would set that mode regardless if they were using "capture around screen" or "zoom window". No need/obligation/requirement to capture again.

Next you'll be telling us waveform update rates don't matter because the LCD screen only updates at 60Hz.....
 

Online Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5156
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #68 on: October 05, 2024, 09:31:38 pm »
The thing is that if you need to go back & forth a lot between horizontal positions and timebase, being able to zoom in/out horizontally / scroll left/right after making an acquisition is just easier for people as it saves a lot of fiddling with buttons and thinking about what settings are needed exactly. When dealing with a complicated problem / circuit, the last thing you need is test equipment being more complicated to operate than necessary. You have to be carefull not to confuse your personal preference with what other people like to do. Also keep in mind that your projects / workflow may be entirely different so capturing beyond the screen is not useful for you. But that doesn't mean capturing beyond the screen is useless for everyone!
These are touchscreen scopes, you can touch the screen to change positions, and then use the knobs if you need more accuracy. It's not that much fiddling these days.
The point still is that it is easier to have excess data (without having to do anything at all) versus needing extra data which isn't there. Better safe than sorry. It really is simple as that.  Having a touchscreen or not makes no difference. I don't get why people insist on wanting to take something away as if their personal preference is the golden rule.  :palm: Re-read and understand the post I wrote about left & right handed tools earlier on in this thread. There is nothing more to it but some seem to get religiously fanatic about being right.
Fanatic? like you always leaving out the reasons and explanation, and pretending like no alternatives exist? Just to create the same fake argument which has been debunked over and over?

To claim that more button presses are needed is up to you to prove. Most scopes are multiplexing the zoom and horizontal controls so they are actually doing exactly the same thing with the same number of adjustments either way "capture around window" or "operate zoomed in". It is not taking something away, it is also adding (which you always dismiss/ignore).

MethodChange TimebaseChange Zoom
View of Trigger+ Maximized- Reduced by as much as 1/2
Memory Depth- Limited Steps+ Highly granular
Capture Position- Fixed+ Freely Adjustable

All those items are model specific, so there is value in people discussing this politely and letting people know what the tradeoffs are for specific scope models (this thread title and opening post).

Equally using either of those methods will reduce the waveform update rate, which may be important to that particular user or not.

Making decisions on others behalf without understanding the specific needs and tradeoffs they are considering important is the backwards way to approach this and perpetuates this fake argument for yet another few years now.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2024, 09:35:44 pm by Someone »
 
The following users thanked this post: KungFuJosh

Offline electr_peter

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1443
  • Country: lt
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #69 on: October 05, 2024, 10:31:43 pm »
Why keep bringing up this straw man argument?  :horse:
Who is using straw arguments here exactly? Let's burn some straws:

@2N3055's flawed argument - Keysight's "zoom out" should do miracles to get data around already captured on screen data in RUN mode (which in this context is not possible with normal scope). Additional capture around screen occurred later in STOP mode, thus no miracle occurred, thus "zoom out" is not useful. Q.E.D.

@Someone's flawed argument - user always knows best capture settings for each possible signal in advance and can do perfect capture on 1st try. It is not possible for user to select wrong settings, have doubts, second thoughts or additional insights in the process because all is known in advance. Thus no recapture is needed, ever. Thus "zoom out" has no value and can be ignored. Q.E.D.

Keysight's argument - user should get fast update rate in RUN mode because that's useful (extra memory beyond screen slows down things). User should get maximum memory in STOP mode, because that's logical and user would want that anyway (why limit the user?). So memory settings are reconfigured from RUN to STOP mode automatically. This gives fast update rate in RUN mode & max memory in STOP mode (which also allows zoom out if needed) & user is not limited & no recapture is needed (if user would want to look at data beyond screen).

Other scope brand's argument (like Siglent) - automatic modes are too confusing for users and/or too difficult to implement, so let's fix memory to the same size in RUN/STOP modes. User obviously knows in advance what memory settings to choose. It's user fault if scope is slow (too much memory in RUN mode) or there is no data beyond display (not enough memory in STOP mode). It's user responsibility to jump around like a jackrabbit and change settings for optimal performance in RUN/STOP modes.

@Someone, you would fit in with Siglent very nicely ;)
 

Online eTobey

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1187
  • Country: de
  • Virtual Features for the SDS800XHD -> My website
    • Virtual feature script
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #70 on: October 05, 2024, 10:32:36 pm »
Just dropping my signature here.  ;D
"Sometimes, after talking with a person, you want to pet a dog, wave at a monkey, and take off your hat to an elephant."(Maxim Gorki)

SDS800X HD issues/tips/workarounds
 

Online Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5156
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #71 on: October 05, 2024, 11:13:36 pm »
Why keep bringing up this straw man argument?  :horse:
Who is using straw arguments here exactly?
There are two straight out lies which are being raised here once again:
Claiming that if you don't blindly capture around the screen then you will have to capture again. Despite that you can capture the entire interesting data without having to capture around the screen.
Saying there is no downside to capturing around the screen. When it does have significant impacts to the trigger/capture system that might cause the user to miss triggers/information.

Repeatedly, over many years. Despite them being completely incorrect. How could its not be clear what I was calling a straw man?

@Someone's flawed argument - user always knows best capture settings for each possible signal in advance and can do perfect capture on 1st try. It is not possible for user to select wrong settings, have doubts, second thoughts or additional insights in the process because all is known in advance. Thus no recapture is needed, ever. Thus "zoom out" has no value and can be ignored. Q.E.D.
If a user has set their scope to capture around the screen then they have explicitly made that choice (and the downsides it brings), which could equally capture the exact same data by using a longer horizontal sweep. Either way the user had to choose what horizontal capture period they wanted.

The comparison is what those two capture methods trade off, how they compare.

Not some imaginary boogieman/strawman argument of but if you set the scope to capture a short period then you might miss something outside that period. Which applies to either method, the same strawman is equally valid to capturing around the window: what if you didn't set the memory long enough? you'd have to capture again!

2N3055's flawed argument - Keysight's "zoom out" should do miracles to get data around already captured on screen data in RUN mode (which in this context is not possible with normal scope). Additional capture around screen occurred later in STOP mode, thus no miracle occurred, thus "zoom out" is not useful.
As explained to you multiple times, the benefit of capturing a longer period with every trigger is different to the "bonus"/extra capture when pressing stop on some of the Keysight models. They are not identical or directly comparable/ The use case which motivated capturing around the screen was the end user seeing something of interest and wanting to see the rest of that specific capture around the screen, not some new capture (which is what is collected when pressing stop).

Keysight's argument - user should get fast update rate in RUN mode because that's useful (extra memory beyond screen slows down things). User should get maximum memory in STOP mode, because that's logical and user would want that anyway (why limit the user?). So memory settings are reconfigured from RUN to STOP mode automatically. This gives fast update rate in RUN mode & max memory in STOP mode (which also allows zoom out if needed) & user is not limited & no recapture is needed (if user would want to look at data beyond screen).
This is where you keep falling down, the additional capture when pressing stop only occurs if there is another trigger after the stop button is pressed. It makes the "recapture" for you, automatic, forced, no choice.

If the user wants to capture that larger period they can do so by setting the horizontal timebase to that at the start.

Other scope brand's argument (like Siglent) - automatic modes are too confusing for users and/or too difficult to implement, so let's fix memory to the same size in RUN/STOP modes. User obviously knows in advance what memory settings to choose. It's user fault if scope is slow (too much memory in RUN mode) or there is no data beyond display (not enough memory in STOP mode). It's user responsibility to jump around like a jackrabbit and change settings for optimal performance in RUN/STOP modes.
The Siglent scope in question (in the thread title) explains how it sets the memory depth very clearly, it is the horizontal view of the screen. There is no jumping around (or other emotive nonsense) or constantly adjusting things.

If the user wants to capture a particular horizontal period they set that before capturing. Regardless if that is by capturing around the screen, or capturing within the screen. You make the plainly false strawman argument that a user capturing around the screen somehow magically does not choose to do so.

So what should be a relatively simple explanation for this new user is now buried in your massive pile of noise.

So I'll repeat the strawman that you are desperately holding onto:
A user needs to select the period they want to capture before they can reliably capture it (the Keysight "bonus" capture on stop is not going to occur in all situations). Capturing around the screen that length/size/period would have to be set in advance, just the same as if it was set by having a longer horizontal sweep time.

Not different, not some unique benefit of capturing around the screen. Exactly the same.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2024, 11:18:05 pm by Someone »
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7466
  • Country: hr
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #72 on: October 05, 2024, 11:23:10 pm »

Who is using straw arguments here exactly? Let's burn some straws:

@2N3055's flawed argument - Keysight's "zoom out" should do miracles to get data around already captured on screen data in RUN mode (which in this context is not possible with normal scope). Additional capture around screen occurred later in STOP mode, thus no miracle occurred, thus "zoom out" is not useful. Q.E.D.


This is slander and complete lie. I never said that.
You are now lying and inventing what people said to prove you are right.

I said  Keysight memory management when going into stop is not doing what most people think it does.
And it is useless to "zoom out" from an event on screen because it will show something completely different at random time later after you press stop. And you agree with that. You said it does exactly the same. And that is equivalent to simply changing timebase before pressing STOP. Therefore it is nothing special which results cannot be reproduced by other scopes that don't do that. It is simply reversing an operation: instead of pressing stop and then changing the timebase, you change the timebase and press the stop. At that moment you will have exactly same result in a scope memory.

I have MSOX3104T. For many years now. I had it before I tried any Siglents. I did try LeCroys and have Picoscopes for decades now. None of them does what Keysight does and never I failed to accomplish the task because of that.
I don't use in on Keysight either..
So no matter how much it makes YOU happy that is not something  that should go into making a choice of a scope in any significant magnitude. There are other far more important features to chose Keysight, that one is not the one.
"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
Dr. Richard W. Hamming
 
The following users thanked this post: rf-loop, Someone, newbrain, KungFuJosh

Offline electr_peter

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1443
  • Country: lt
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #73 on: October 06, 2024, 01:12:50 pm »
When did you enter a cult? Do you wear funny hats in meetings? The more you repeat same BS, there more it is obvious you are from a cult for everyone. It is not possible to reason with cult members, it will go over their heads, so this is for external reader benefit only.

Let's define "zoom out" variations properly for once as actual term usage keeps shifting around too much.

"Basic zoom out" - scope's ability to capture beyond screen width in STOP/SINGLE mode when memory length allows, so that user does not get only blank edges if timebase is increased after STOP/SINGLE. This is useful by itself and can be achieved with some scopes in default mode or custom memory setup (how exactly it is achieved is not that relevant). I think this was what Dave alluded mostly in his video.

Keysight's zoom out, aka "zoom out plus" - "basic zoom out" optimized for the max performance, more useful in general. In RUN mode only display is captured, in STOP/SINGLE mode scope captures max memory with new capture or reverts to the last short RUN capture. In other words, it is automatic memory management with idea that user would do the same, as it is logical. RUN mode -> set memory to screen width, thus faster update. STOP/SINGLE -> set memory to max, so more stuff is captured. Or go to wider screen and capture then, it is equivalent. Keysight does that automatically for user.

"zoom out ultra" - same as "zoom out plus", but the very last STOP/SINGLE capture is not new, but the very last short RUN capture, extended to max memory. Extended by miracle or very extensive parallel computation in data acquire path, which is simply not possible with normal scopes in this context.

"zoom out ultra" (which does not exist in normal scopes yet) is set as a benchmark to denigrate any benefits of "basic zoom out" and "zoom out plus", because these are not up to the impossibly high standard.
Nobody is claiming that "zoom out plus" let's achieve something that is not possible by other scopes. Of course not, "zoom out plus" is just clever rearrangement of basic memory length/trigger features (i.e. not magic) to get analysis faster, any scope can achieve equivalent result in other ways.
 

Offline electr_peter

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1443
  • Country: lt
Re: Siglent SDS800 Zoom out question (problem?)
« Reply #74 on: October 06, 2024, 01:13:41 pm »
There are two straight out lies which are being raised here once again:
Claiming that if you don't blindly capture around the screen then you will have to capture again. Despite that you can capture the entire interesting data without having to capture around the screen.
You move around the issue.
If STOP capture was made and was deemed to be too short, then with "zoom out plus" you may not need to make a new capture. With other scopes you do, there is no way out of this situation. Keysight gives you more options, how is that worse?
If STOP capture was at long timebase, no recapture is needed. You can do that with all scopes. But how do you have such insight/luck to do long capture? There we go again with your strawman of "user knows what to capture in advance, thus no need to recapture".
If you call viewing signals in RUN mode capture (or not capture?), then there is no need to recapture(?), just change timebase. Confusing wording in this case.

Quote
Saying there is no downside to capturing around the screen. When it does have significant impacts to the trigger/capture system that might cause the user to miss triggers/information.
With "zoom out plus" there are no downsides, none, compared to regular scope approach with equivalent settings. What exactly is captured/not captured depends (as even fast scope has non-zero blind time in fast timebases), but "zoom out plus" is better/comparable (but not worse) in general. "zoom out ultra" would be even better, if it existed.

These so called "lies" fall apart as strawmans/misunderstandings.

Quote
As explained to you multiple times, the benefit of capturing a longer period with every trigger is different to the "bonus"/extra capture when pressing stop on some of the Keysight models. They are not identical or directly comparable
Nobody claims that they are exactly identical. Claim is that at similar timebase settings "zoom out plus" feature adds slight advantage over other scopes with no downsides. User can just ignore that and use the scope as it didn't have "zoom out plus" without any difference/downside.

Quote
The use case which motivated capturing around the screen was the end user seeing something of interest and wanting to see the rest of that specific capture around the screen, not some new capture (which is what is collected when pressing stop).
To stake all this discussion of such rare corner case and ignore general benefit is laughable. With regular scope you are 100% SOL in this situation. With "basic zoom out" and "zoom out plus" you have very slim chance if anomaly repeats more than once or is longer in duration. With "zoom out ultra" your chances may be better, but that requires miracle functionality. On top of the fact that you somehow managed to stop acquisition at the right time in nanosecond-microsecond ranges of some random signal. Consider yourself lucky. Rethinking of approach is required on case by case basis, "zoom out" is not a magic panacea for all corner cases.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf